Switzerland votes to curb EU immigration

[The Brain]

Who cares about Swiss policies? Sounds like a niche interest.

[alfred russel]

Alfred, what would you think if Texas would decide in a referendum that this: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; [...] nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." would no longer apply to non-Texans and non-Texans would no longer have the right to seek work in Texas or move there?

Texas isn't a sovereign country and is a part of the US. Switzerland is a sovereign country and isn't even a part of the EU.

I don't really care what happens to Switzerland. I like the Alps, and the Swiss setup makes them quite expensive, so if integrating with the EU causes it to normalize pricing with its neighbors I'm in favor of it.

However, it isn't hard to see that from a Swiss perspective they are taking in a lot of immigrants very quickly. Maybe more than anyone else as a percent of population. That does strain public resources, and is ultimately going to quickly undermine whatever is unique about Swiss culture. In the long term the latter is inevitable in both Switzerland and Europe, but I don't think it crazy for there to be some resistance in Switzerland. I'd also point out that there are real problems in the whole concept of freedom of movement coupled with national citizenship (see the Spanish / sephardi thread for an example).

[garbon]

I'd also point out that there are real problems in the whole concept of freedom of movement coupled with national citizenship (see the Spanish / sephardi thread for an example).

That example seems a bit scaremongery. I doubt there is going to be an overwhelming flood of people seeking citizenship.

[Zanza]

Texas isn't a sovereign country and is a part of the US. Switzerland is a sovereign country and isn't even a part of the EU.

The EU countries aren't really sovereign anymore either. They voluntarily transferred a lot of their sovereign powers to the EU. They have different powers than US federal states, notably the right to secede from the union. Switzerland is only an associated state to the union, but that doesn't make them fully sovereign until they cut their association with the union again, which now seems to be the case after this referendum. That's fine, the EU commission is not Abraham Lincoln. We'll allow them to leave.

I don't really care what happens to Switzerland. I like the Alps, and the Swiss setup makes them quite expensive, so if integrating with the EU causes it to normalize pricing with its neighbors I'm in favor of it.

For that they would need to introduce the Euro and then have terrible deflation for a decade or so. Unlikely.

However, it isn't hard to see that from a Swiss perspective they are taking in a lot of immigrants very quickly. Maybe more than anyone else as a percent of population. That does strain public resources, and is ultimately going to quickly undermine whatever is unique about Swiss culture. In the long term the latter is inevitable in both Switzerland and Europe, but I don't think it crazy for there to be some resistance in Switzerland.

Sure. That cannot be the problem of the EU though.

I'd also point out that there are real problems in the whole concept of freedom of movement coupled with national citizenship (see the Spanish / sephardi thread for an example).

Didn't read that thread, so I don't know what you refer to.

[Valmy]

Anyway, it shouldn't be too complex to have a separate set of rules for Switzerland.

There are, already, separate rules for Switzerland.  And there will continue to be, hence why negotiations are going to take place.  Wheenyness will prevail, this is the EU we are talking about.  The EU is not going to send in the tanks or launch a sanctions regime to strong arm Switzerland.  I do not get the hand wringing on your part.

[DontSayBanana]

There are, already, separate rules for Switzerland.  And there will continue to be, hence why negotiations are going to take place.  Wheenyness will prevail, this is the EU we are talking about.  The EU is not going to send in the tanks or launch a sanctions regime to strong arm Switzerland.  I do not get the hand wringing on your part.

From what I'm reading, Switzerland does not have special rules- the concession was an extra five year grace period to phase in the changes.

[Sheilbh]

Appeasement of right-wing nationalists? How very British of you.

I don't think this sort of sentiment is the preserve of right-wing nationalists. Polling in all European countries shows pretty universally negative perceptions of immigration and a desire to reduce it, even in Schengen states of, I think, 8 polled only Sweden and Poland didn't have majority support for re-introducing national border controls. Aside from the economy, immigration is what European voters think is the most important issue facing their country. Lots of states have tried to make moves on this - the Danes, the French, the Italians, the Dutch and the British, off the top of my head - because it's unpopular.

At a time when trust in the EU is at historic lows, a more Eurosceptic Parliament will be choosing the next Commission President (pretty soon too) and the UK may quite possibly be trying to renegotiate their membership I don't think it'd be politically sensible for Europe to make this too big an issue. Until the economic policies on the periphery this was probably the single most unpopular bit of European politics in many countries.

I don't think the UK would never leave the EU, if leaving the EU meant the loss of all 4 freedoms (as in, losing the free market area). Keeping it "all or nothing" is best for the EU, in my opinion.

I had a conversation about a possible UK vote with a couple of European friends recently. They were both absolutely confident Britain would vote to stay in. I'm really not sure. I'd guess that it'll end up 55-45% in favour. At this point, as former passionate supporter of the EU, I don't know how I'd vote. Again it's not the preserve of right-wing nationalist nuts

It's hilarious to read that dude in EUOT bitch at Italians stealing jobs in Ticino, an Italian-speaking canton within spitting distance. Especially when unemployment rate is something like 3-4%.

We have something like 5-6 million immigrants from all over the place and about the same number of folks without jobs. The Swiss in our position would be laying down the gas pipes.

In fairness I think Ticino is the one exception to the rule that the fewer immigrants a canton has the more likely they are to vote to restrict immigration.

Also I have sympathy with wanting to be able to limit it in a small country with a 25% immigrant population. I imagine they would have voted differently if it was only half that - like in Spain and the UK.

The UK dropping out would be actually seen as a positive for many people, not just wackos. The UK is not exactly a core member, it has plenty of opt-outs. It might not be as mild for the UK though.

I think it would be bad for the EU if the UK left. The only people with any reason to celebrate would be the French

The UK is the most liberal, pro-market of the large nations and I think that Germany would eventually miss having another counter-weight to France and the more liberal members of the EU - the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark - would feel a little more lonely.

Personally, I'm not against direct democracy, but it would need a few safeguards.

Except for major constitutional changes I'm totally against direct democracy. It's the only subject where my thoughts are as one with Maggie Thatcher. Referendums are a 'device for demagogues and dictators'.

Edit: And it is worth remembering that I think we're all the sort of people who get more of the up-side. I'm middle class, university educated, I'm trying to work in a sector with a lot of mobility within Europe and I think I mainly get the benefit of the better service and lower costs. But according to Eurobarometer polls only 20-25% of Europeans would like to live and work abroad (and far fewer have done it, and even fewer are doing it now). If you're not university educated, or middle class, or you're competing for jobs with immigrants then that mobility can seem more of a threat than an opportunity. Again those voters aren't stupid, or wrong, or xenophobes.

[Iormlund]

I'd also point out that there are real problems in the whole concept of freedom of movement coupled with national citizenship (see the Spanish / sephardi thread for an example).

Sephardi Jews have had access to fast-tracked Spanish citizenship since the Primo de Rivera dictatorship in the 1920s.

[alfred russel]

I do not get the hand wringing on your part.

I'm not as up on the treaty and legal structures as the Europeans, but I think Sheilbh's points are valid. But mostly, I think it is captured in this exchange:

    However, it isn't hard to see that from a Swiss perspective they are taking in a lot of immigrants very quickly. Maybe more than anyone else as a percent of population. That does strain public resources, and is ultimately going to quickly undermine whatever is unique about Swiss culture. In the long term the latter is inevitable in both Switzerland and Europe, but I don't think it crazy for there to be some resistance in Switzerland.

Sure. That cannot be the problem of the EU though.

A group of europeans have a problem, but that isn't the EU's problem? And oh yeah, woe to them if they try to do anything independently.

[garbon]

Again those voters aren't stupid, or wrong, or xenophobes.

I think the bit in bold is pretty much true and most people are fairly stupid.

[Agelastus]

I had a conversation about a possible UK vote with a couple of European friends recently. They were both absolutely confident Britain would vote to stay in. I'm really not sure. I'd guess that it'll end up 55-45% in favour. At this point, as former passionate supporter of the EU, I don't know how I'd vote. Again it's not the preserve of right-wing nationalist nuts

I actually think that the percentages will look like that but in reverse (against the EU)...but then I've never made any secret of my position on the issue.

I'm just curious as to whether Sheilbh considers me a "right wing nationalist nut" or not.

I also agree that immediately jumping to the "nuclear option" with Switzerland could be politically counterproductive for the Integrationist position. I expect we'll see a lot of rhetoric (as we have been seeing) but then it will die down and we won't see a lot of action* while they wait and see what the Swiss government does.

*Well, more action anyway. The EU have already laid down the "we're serious" political marker with the cancellation of the energy talks.

[Zanza]

I don't think this sort of sentiment is the preserve of right-wing nationalists. Polling in all European countries shows pretty universally negative perceptions of immigration and a desire to reduce it, even in Schengen states of, I think, 8 polled only Sweden and Poland didn't have majority support for re-introducing national border controls. Aside from the economy, immigration is what European voters think is the most important issue facing their country. Lots of states have tried to make moves on this - the Danes, the French, the Italians, the Dutch and the British, off the top of my head - because it's unpopular.

Border controls and immigration are two different things and mixing them is not helpful. The Swiss referendum was on a core tenet of the internal market, namely freedom of movement for workers. It was not about border controls, which is not an internal market issue but part of the Schengen Agreement.
No idea if your list of countries that made moves on it refers to one or the other. I am not particularly familiar with any of these, but as far as I know the Front National in France wants to limit immigration from outside the EU, not to abolish freedom of movement. That's a completely different topic.

At a time when trust in the EU is at historic lows, a more Eurosceptic Parliament will be choosing the next Commission President (pretty soon too) and the UK may quite possibly be trying to renegotiate their membership I don't think it'd be politically sensible for Europe to make this too big an issue.

We should make it a big issue. Freedom of movement for workers is the very core of the EU. It was the original agreement on the EEC internal market in 1957 on which everything else was built. If we compromise on that, the rest will fall as well. 

Until the economic policies on the periphery this was probably the single most unpopular bit of European politics in many countries.

I doubt that. As far as I can tell, immigration from non-EU countries is unpopular in most countries. But freedom of movement from workers was an issue in Britain with the Poles, but other than that, I don't think it is a major issue in any country. British pensioners moving en masse to Spain? Who cares? Spaniards coming to Germany to work here? No one cares one bit.

I had a conversation about a possible UK vote with a couple of European friends recently. They were both absolutely confident Britain would vote to stay in. I'm really not sure. I'd guess that it'll end up 55-45% in favour. At this point, as former passionate supporter of the EU, I don't know how I'd vote. Again it's not the preserve of right-wing nationalist nuts

Bye.

[Zanza]

However, it isn't hard to see that from a Swiss perspective they are taking in a lot of immigrants very quickly. Maybe more than anyone else as a percent of population. That does strain public resources, and is ultimately going to quickly undermine whatever is unique about Swiss culture. In the long term the latter is inevitable in both Switzerland and Europe, but I don't think it crazy for there to be some resistance in Switzerland.

Sure. That cannot be the problem of the EU though.

A group of europeans have a problem, but that isn't the EU's problem? And oh yeah, woe to them if they try to do anything independently.

I have no idea what your point is. Does the EU in your opinion have some kind of general responsibility to consider the peculiar interests of non-EU European countries? Why? Switzerland was invited to join the EU and declined. They got a special, advantageous deal with the EU that no one else got. Now that's not good enough for the Swiss anymore. Should the EU now compromise its core values to accomodate the Swiss? No thanks.

[Tamas]

However, it isn't hard to see that from a Swiss perspective they are taking in a lot of immigrants very quickly. Maybe more than anyone else as a percent of population. That does strain public resources, and is ultimately going to quickly undermine whatever is unique about Swiss culture. In the long term the latter is inevitable in both Switzerland and Europe, but I don't think it crazy for there to be some resistance in Switzerland.

Sure. That cannot be the problem of the EU though.

A group of europeans have a problem, but that isn't the EU's problem? And oh yeah, woe to them if they try to do anything independently.

I have no idea what your point is. Does the EU in your opinion have some kind of general responsibility to consider the peculiar interests of non-EU European countries? Why? Switzerland was invited to join the EU and declined. They got a special, advantageous deal with the EU that no one else got. Now that's not good enough for the Swiss anymore. Should the EU now compromise its core values to accomodate the Swiss? No thanks.

I agree.


Also, I don't get the all the UK QQ over being an EU member, but I am admittedly ignorant to the finer details. However, having your huge workforce magnet of a capital free access to the labour market of the EU seems like quite a big boost on it's own.

My first thought about the Swiss and the Brits or whoever getting all uppity about immigrants is: who will clean your toilets then?

[Sheilbh]

I'm a bit worried with all these xenophobe outbursts throughout Europe. One thinks that they will go away once the recession finally recedes, since people are mostly blaming their problems on "the outsider". But then again, Switzerland has done well during it.

Just to come back to this, I don't think it's to do with the crisis as this vote demonstrates. If you look at the countries with a very successful far or populist right, they're generally not the ones worst hit by the recession: Finland, the Netherlands, Austria, arguably Belgium. By contrast there's a good chunk of crisis countries that to my knowledge don't have any far right at all (Ireland, Cyprus, Spain and Portugal). Maybe the recession accelerated their growth, but I don't think it's the cause.

A couple of British academics wrote a blog on this:
http://extremisproject.org/2012/08/extremism-and-economics-a-complicated-relationship/

Border controls and immigration are two different things and mixing them is not helpful. The Swiss referendum was on a core tenet of the internal market, namely freedom of movement for workers. It was not about border controls, which is not an internal market issue but part of the Schengen Agreement.

Okay, but in that poll the overwhelming reason people supported reintroducing border controls was to reduce immigration. They are linked in people's minds, the fact that people wrongly want to do it to reduce immigration doesn't change the fact they want to reduce immigration. I used to think in the UK anti-immigration was primarily about non-EU citizens but that changed and I think something similar is happening in Europe. In many countries, including Germany and the Netherlands, a majority would already support national government control of intra-EU migration.

Most Europeans do think that migrants put a strain on the welfare state and almost as many French and German voters want to put limits on EU citizens accessing their welfare state. I think it's probably not uncoincidental that Switzerland is thinking like this when they've got a vote on universal basic income soon.

But freedom of movement from workers was an issue in Britain with the Poles, but other than that, I don't think it is a major issue in any country.

Not a major issue yet. But as I say the polling in most European countries suggests people are extremely ambivalent about it (as I said only 20-5% of people would want to live and work in another country) and would probably rather it were controlled at the national level. I imagine that sentiment will grow - as it did in the UK - with the EU migrant population.