N. Korea building missile launch pad capable of aiming at U.S.

[derspiess]

Could someone point me to some sources on this?  I'm pretty sure the consensus from what I've read was that Hitler did not want war with France & Britain in September 1939.  AFAIK he didn't want war with Britain at all.

[Valmy]

Could someone point me to some sources on this?  I'm pretty sure the consensus from what I've read was that Hitler did not want war with France & Britain in September 1939.  AFAIK he didn't want war with Britain at all.

You have evidence that the consensus amongst Historians is that Hitler did not want War with France and Britain despite saying he did, telling his generals to prepare for it, and doing everything he could to destroy negotiations at every turn?  Do YOU have any sources on this supposed consensus?

[jimmy olsen]

Could someone point me to some sources on this?  I'm pretty sure the consensus from what I've read was that Hitler did not want war with France & Britain in September 1939.  AFAIK he didn't want war with Britain at all.

You have evidence that the consensus amongst Historians is that Hitler did not want War with France and Britain despite saying he did, telling his generals to prepare for it, and doing everything he could to destroy negotiations at every turn?  Do YOU have any sources on this supposed consensus?

Well as far as I understand, he wanted war with Poland and France, but he would have preferred not to fight the British if possible.

[Valmy]

Except Hitler started the war and he could have backed down at any point.

Well, the point I'm trying to make with the comparison regarding N. Korea is that Hitler got away with so much that he had no reason to back down, he thought the Allies would cave like they did all the times before. NK has got away with so much (really, can you imagine the reaction if some foreign power shelled your territory like NK did to SK?), that I believe that their leadership believe they can get away with anything sort of an invasion in order to extract concessions or build up domestic support.

Except the comparison is nonsense since Hitler knew damn well the Poles were going to fight.  There was going to be a war regardless of what France and Britain did.

[Valmy]

Well as far as I understand, he wanted war with Poland and France, but he would have preferred not to fight the British if possible.

He did absolutely nothing to achieve this goal if that was his aim.  From what I gather he figured, like Erich von Falkenhayn before him, that if Britain's continental allies were defeated the British would give in.

[derspiess]

Could someone point me to some sources on this?  I'm pretty sure the consensus from what I've read was that Hitler did not want war with France & Britain in September 1939.  AFAIK he didn't want war with Britain at all.

You have evidence that the consensus amongst Historians is that Hitler did not want War with France and Britain despite saying he did, telling his generals to prepare for it, and doing everything he could to destroy negotiations at every turn?  Do YOU have any sources on this supposed consensus?

Jeez, take a breath for a second & re-read what I wrote.  I said the "the consensus from what I've read".  I didn't say I know the universal consensus among historians.  And I'll go further by saying I don't remember exactly what my sources were as it's been a while since I read up on the subject.  Hell, I could even be remembering it wrong. 

I'm just asking for some sources so I can edumacate myself.  Chill out, commie-lover.

[Berkut]

I think the consensus, if there is one, is roughly:

1. Hitler wanted Poland and the access to the East it provided.
2. If he could get that without war with France and England, that would be fine with him, but he knew this was unlikely.
3. He was willing to take the war with France and England in order to get Poland.
4. He figured that England would bow out after France was defeated.

Hitler view was that he was going to take Poland. If France wants to fight over it, that is fine, he would then take France as well. If not, that is fine too...although since his ultiimate goal is always the Ukraine and Russia, he probably would actually prefer getting France taken care of first, since he would not want to have to fight France and the USSR at the same time.

I suspect that had France and England backed down again, nothing really would have changed. He would conquer Poland, then come up with a pretext to do the same to France next year anyway.

[derspiess]

That sounds right to me.

[Berkut]

I think the only thing pre-Barbarossa that Hitler did NOT count on was England staying at war even after France went down.

Which is still why I say that English stubbornness after the summer of  1940 really does not get the credit it deserves. Their refusal to back down after all their allies had been crushed was a critical point in the war, IMO.

[Valmy]

Which is still why I say that English stubbornness after the summer of  1940 really does not get the credit it deserves. Their refusal to back down after all their allies had been crushed was a critical point in the war, IMO.

British stubbornness

But how much more credit can we really give them?  Heck they usually are mad at us for giving them and Churchill too much credit.

[The Brain]

I think the only thing pre-Barbarossa that Hitler did NOT count on was England staying at war even after France went down.

Which is still why I say that English stubbornness after the summer of  1940 really does not get the credit it deserves. Their refusal to back down after all their allies had been crushed was a critical point in the war, IMO.

Yeah, government inertia is just great.

[CountDeMoney]

But how much more credit can we really give them?

May 1940 was the turning point of the war in Europe.  Not Stalingrad, not D-Day, but Churchill's decision to stick it out and fight for as long as it took and getting the Cabinet and Crown to go along with it.  So the Brits get every bit of credit they deserve from history in saving western Europe from the scourge of Nazism and leather fetish wear.

Heck they usually are mad at us for giving them and Churchill too much credit.

That's just the English being the English, in their usual unassuming and self-deprecating fashion.

[Admiral Yi]

May 1940 was the turning point of the war in Europe.  Not Stalingrad, not D-Day, but Churchill's decision to stick it out and fight for as long as it took and getting the Cabinet and Crown to go along with it.  So the Brits get every bit of credit they deserve from history in saving western Europe from the scourge of Nazism and leather fetish wear.

Eh, depends what you mean by turning point.  The good guys got a lot of ass beating after May 1940 (you mean September, don't you?) and lost a shitload of territory.  Stalingrad is the true turning point in Europe, and Midway the true turning point in the Pacific, the point at which we started to roll back conquered territory.

The Battle of Britain changes the narrative from "We're all fucked" to "We can probably hang on until the Americans come in."

[CountDeMoney]

The good guys got a lot of ass beating after May 1940 (you mean September, don't you?) and lost a shitload of territory. 

No, I'm referring to the political decision-making process in London during the week of May 24th; that was the time of the political decisions made in London regarding the future of the war:  whether to resign to defeat and pursue a negotiated peace, or to keep fighting even in the middle of the Dunkirk fuck-up. 

But then again, I subscribe to the Lukacs school of unabashed Churchill worship anyway.

[Capetan Mihali]

I've been reading, on Languish's collective recommendation, The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy, by Adam Tooze (http://www.amazon.com/The-Wages-Destruction-Breaking-Economy/dp/0143113208), over the last few months. While I don't have it available to me right now, the first half of the book has definitely given me a better appreciation for just how crucial the prospect of actually fighting a major war, not just "re-militarizing" and not just territorial conquest, was for Hitler's overall economic/social plan for the Reich.