Butthurt guy whines about Canada's warship names

[Malthus]

What parts do you think need more clarity?

I meant "... by average non-historians (like us)".

As in, despite the fact that many of the battles of that war were actually fought in Southern Ontario, including York, it isn't well-known or well-understood by the people who live here.

[Berkut]

What parts do you think need more clarity?

I meant "... by average non-historians (like us)".

As in, despite the fact that many of the battles of that war were actually fought in Southern Ontario, including York, it isn't well-known or well-understood by the people who live here.

I dunno, seems like this thread proves that Canadians understand it pretty well.

The US attacked the nation of Canada, and the plucky Canadians won their independence from Britain by defeating the massive invasion forces put together by the Americans bent on conquest at war with Britain.

What could be confusing?

[Barrister]

What parts do you think need more clarity?

I meant "... by average non-historians (like us)".

As in, despite the fact that many of the battles of that war were actually fought in Southern Ontario, including York, it isn't well-known or well-understood by the people who live here.

I dunno, seems like this thread proves that Canadians understand it pretty well.

The US attacked the nation of Canada, and the plucky Canadians won their independence from Britain by defeating the massive invasion forces put together by the Americans bent on conquest at war with Britain.

What could be confusing?

Let's try again:

The US declared war with Britain, which of course controlled Canada.  The US stated the war was over shipping issues, but many in the US (including President Madison) saw it as a great opportunity to 'liberate' Canada from British control.  The US had no standing army, so sent a couple of rag-tag state militias north to try and conquer Canada.  Britain, meanwhile, was distracted by a little guy named Napoleon, so had few troops stationed in Canada.  The few British troops helped organize the local Canadians into militias, and together were ultimately able to defeat the US invasions.

The invasion of Canada thwarted, and the shipping issues now moot due to the defeat of Napoleon, Britain and the US declared the war a draw.  Canadians saw it as some of the first steps to an emerging Canadian national identity, and the memory of those invasions was a key factor in Canadian Confederation 50 years later.

[Berkut]

LOL.

So really, you guys have us to thank for your independence?

Without a war between your colonial masters and their former colonial servants, Canada would never have had the idea of independence?

This entire thing is so bizarre. Canadians are so intent on casting the US as the bad guy in the story of Canadian "national identity" which just makes no sense at all - it wasn't the USA that was holding Canada as a colony of a foreign power. And if anything suggested to Canada that perhaps they could be an independent nation, I would guess that the US claiming their own independence from that colonial power might have some teeny, tiny bit of relevance.

[Barrister]

LOL.

So really, you guys have us to thank for your independence?

Without a war between your colonial masters and their former colonial servants, Canada would never have had the idea of independence?

This entire thing is so bizarre. Canadians are so intent on casting the US as the bad guy in the story of Canadian "national identity" which just makes no sense at all - it wasn't the USA that was holding Canada as a colony of a foreign power. And if anything suggested to Canada that perhaps they could be an independent nation, I would guess that the US claiming their own independence from that colonial power might have some teeny, tiny bit of relevance.

I never even used the word independence.

I said 1812 and the ongoing fear of a US invasion was a big part of what led to Confederation - bringing together at first Upper and Lower Canada, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick into one new Dominion of Canada.  At the time the Fathers of Confederation would have been horrified at the notion that what they were doing was declaring Independence from the Empire.  But what Confederation was about was forming a united Canadian identity within the British Empire.

[Malthus]

LOL.

So really, you guys have us to thank for your independence?

Without a war between your colonial masters and their former colonial servants, Canada would never have had the idea of independence?

This entire thing is so bizarre. Canadians are so intent on casting the US as the bad guy in the story of Canadian "national identity" which just makes no sense at all - it wasn't the USA that was holding Canada as a colony of a foreign power. And if anything suggested to Canada that perhaps they could be an independent nation, I would guess that the US claiming their own independence from that colonial power might have some teeny, tiny bit of relevance.

No surprise here, you have a signally US-inspired view that the Big Bad in other nation's national histories has to be the "colonial masters", and what they truly wanted was "independence". That is not at all what English Canadians thought, or wanted.

What they wanted was the right to self-determination within the Empire, which was never viewed as the Big Bad. That slot was filled by the US, and English Canadians had lots of reasons for that - in spite of (perhaps even because of) the fact that many English Canadians were immigrants from the US, at least, in those early days.

The US example of violent revolution and inter-communial strife, (leading eventually to a massive civil war), and violent expansion at the expense of native groups and Mexicans, was seen as a cautionary tale of what *not* to do, in achieving peaceful self-determination.

It is no surprise that this is "bizzare" to you. In the US, while it is widely acknowledged that 'Mistakes Were Made' (tm), the national story is generally cast as a triumph of freedom. In Canada, the story is that we got the freedom, but without many of the Mistakes (tm).

[garbon]

Sorry.

[Berkut]

It is no surprise that this is "bizzare" to you. In the US, while it is widely acknowledged that 'Mistakes Were Made' (tm), the national story is generally cast as a triumph of freedom. In Canada, the story is that we got the freedom, but without many of the Mistakes (tm).

That is a triumph of national delusion, but hey, every nation has those I suppose...

[Berkut]

LOL.

So really, you guys have us to thank for your independence?

Without a war between your colonial masters and their former colonial servants, Canada would never have had the idea of independence?

This entire thing is so bizarre. Canadians are so intent on casting the US as the bad guy in the story of Canadian "national identity" which just makes no sense at all - it wasn't the USA that was holding Canada as a colony of a foreign power. And if anything suggested to Canada that perhaps they could be an independent nation, I would guess that the US claiming their own independence from that colonial power might have some teeny, tiny bit of relevance.

I never even used the word independence.

I said 1812 and the ongoing fear of a US invasion was a big part of what led to Confederation - bringing together at first Upper and Lower Canada, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick into one new Dominion of Canada.  At the time the Fathers of Confederation would have been horrified at the notion that what they were doing was declaring Independence from the Empire.  But what Confederation was about was forming a united Canadian identity within the British Empire.

That doesn't even make sense though - isn't that obvious to anyone thinking about this objectively?

The defense of "Canada" from the largely mythical threat of American conquest is not in a "Confederation" of Canadian disparate peoples under the British Empire. No amount of "Canadian" unity could have stopped the US from taking over Canada absent...the British Empire! Canada was largely invulnerable to US aggression while part of the British Empire, and 100% helpless in the face of US aggression absent the British Empire.

And the War of 1812, if it proved anything, proved that

1. Canada was not vulnerable to takeover from the US as long as the British Empire was willing to protect it, because Canadians themselves had no interest in bailing on the Brits, and
2. The US wasn't much interested in conquering Canada absent Canadian interest in separating from the British Empire.

This idea that AFTER 1812 there was this "ongoing fear" of imminent US invasion just makes no sense, except as a convenient myth. Certainly at the time it was blindingly obvious that the US had zero interest in invading Canada.

I suspect the entire thing, as exemplified by naming these warships, is pretty much a figment of post-Canadian independence imagination. A desirous mythology of strife and struggle to romanticize something that was really quite boring.

[Admiral Yi]

But what Confederation was about was forming a united Canadian identity within the British Empire.

Seems to me that the biggest problem with this particular narrative is that y'all never did in fact form a united Canadian identity.

[Sophie Scholl]

I think I'm the only American who understands the Canadian perspective on this.  It seems incredibly clear and logical to me.

[Jacob]

Seems to me that the biggest problem with this particular narrative is that y'all never did in fact form a united Canadian identity.

What do you mean?

[garbon]

Seems to me that the biggest problem with this particular narrative is that y'all never did in fact form a united Canadian identity.

What do you mean?

?

[Malthus]

LOL.

So really, you guys have us to thank for your independence?

Without a war between your colonial masters and their former colonial servants, Canada would never have had the idea of independence?

This entire thing is so bizarre. Canadians are so intent on casting the US as the bad guy in the story of Canadian "national identity" which just makes no sense at all - it wasn't the USA that was holding Canada as a colony of a foreign power. And if anything suggested to Canada that perhaps they could be an independent nation, I would guess that the US claiming their own independence from that colonial power might have some teeny, tiny bit of relevance.

I never even used the word independence.

I said 1812 and the ongoing fear of a US invasion was a big part of what led to Confederation - bringing together at first Upper and Lower Canada, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick into one new Dominion of Canada.  At the time the Fathers of Confederation would have been horrified at the notion that what they were doing was declaring Independence from the Empire.  But what Confederation was about was forming a united Canadian identity within the British Empire.

That doesn't even make sense though - isn't that obvious to anyone thinking about this objectively?

The defense of "Canada" from the largely mythical threat of American conquest is not in a "Confederation" of Canadian disparate peoples under the British Empire. No amount of "Canadian" unity could have stopped the US from taking over Canada absent...the British Empire! Canada was largely invulnerable to US aggression while part of the British Empire, and 100% helpless in the face of US aggression absent the British Empire.

And the War of 1812, if it proved anything, proved that

1. Canada was not vulnerable to takeover from the US as long as the British Empire was willing to protect it, because Canadians themselves had no interest in bailing on the Brits, and
2. The US wasn't much interested in conquering Canada absent Canadian interest in separating from the British Empire.

This idea that AFTER 1812 there was this "ongoing fear" of imminent US invasion just makes no sense, except as a convenient myth. Certainly at the time it was blindingly obvious that the US had zero interest in invading Canada.

I suspect the entire thing, as exemplified by naming these warships, is pretty much a figment of post-Canadian independence imagination. A desirous mythology of strife and struggle to romanticize something that was really quite boring.

I'm not getting your point. The whole notion of Confederation was to stay within the Empire. Fostering united ties with other provinces ensured that none would be tempted by inter-provincial wrangling to play the US off against the Empire, looking for purely local advantage - similar to what the dissident US South attempted to do in your very own US of A.

As you yourself noted:

The US wasn't much interested in conquering Canada absent Canadian interest in separating from the British Empire.

Confederation was designed to prevent groups within what is now "Canada" of seeking just that. What if, for example, Louis Riel approached the US Congress hoping to get a better deal from the US for "Manitoba"?

[Jacob]

garbon - if that's what Yi means, then IMO that's an overstatement in spite of the political inclinations of Grallon et. al.