Kingdom Come: Deliverance

[Tamas]

Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

I honestly don't understand why something stapled as "realistic" medieval game (let's not get into the details on that) should portrait women as having the same rights and level of equality as 21st century ones. That is an anti-feminist narrative if anything, because it invalidates a fight for equality, since according to that narrative, the inequality never existed.

Telling the story of how extraordinary women got around those limitations would be much more interesting but such stories should emphasise the horrible odds those women overcame, and shouldn't hide how most of them were able to - usually their talent was not enough, they had to get close to positions of power as mothers or wives/concubines of men with power. Showing that picture, and thus explaining how constant vigilance is necessary to maintain and improve the hard-won rights of women, is a far healthier message and approach IMHO than pretending that a woman in 1403 could just enter traditional male roles without issue.

[The Brain]

Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

I honestly don't understand why something stapled as "realistic" medieval game (let's not get into the details on that) should portrait women as having the same rights and level of equality as 21st century ones. That is an anti-feminist narrative if anything, because it invalidates a fight for equality, since according to that narrative, the inequality never existed.

Telling the story of how extraordinary women got around those limitations would be much more interesting but such stories should emphasise the horrible odds those women overcame, and shouldn't hide how most of them were able to - usually their talent was not enough, they had to get close to positions of power as mothers or wives/concubines of men with power. Showing that picture, and thus explaining how constant vigilance is necessary to maintain and improve the hard-won rights of women, is a far healthier message and approach IMHO than pretending that a woman in 1403 could just enter traditional male roles without issue.

Someone slept in gender studies class.

[Valmy]

Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

While exploring the Muslim world might be fun, I hope they will stick to Bohemian women.

[Barrister]

Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

I honestly don't understand why something stapled as "realistic" medieval game (let's not get into the details on that) should portrait women as having the same rights and level of equality as 21st century ones. That is an anti-feminist narrative if anything, because it invalidates a fight for equality, since according to that narrative, the inequality never existed.

Telling the story of how extraordinary women got around those limitations would be much more interesting but such stories should emphasise the horrible odds those women overcame, and shouldn't hide how most of them were able to - usually their talent was not enough, they had to get close to positions of power as mothers or wives/concubines of men with power. Showing that picture, and thus explaining how constant vigilance is necessary to maintain and improve the hard-won rights of women, is a far healthier message and approach IMHO than pretending that a woman in 1403 could just enter traditional male roles without issue.

I think the argument is that what we think the role of women was in late medieval europe was is not entirely correct - that we're more confusing it with a more 19th century perspective when women had far fewer rights when compared to the 15th century.

[grumbler]

A female serf would be utterly uninteresting, but one could create a realistic but still, perhaps, interesting woman's role from the artisan class.  I seem to recall that brewers were mostly (perhaps just in England, but I suspect not) women, and generally these women were the wives of bakers (thus having access to yeast and grains). 

Maybe our heroine could be wandering the Bohemian countryside collecting beer recipes? 

[Valmy]

A female serf would be utterly uninteresting, but one could create a realistic but still, perhaps, interesting woman's role from the artisan class.  I seem to recall that brewers were mostly (perhaps just in England, but I suspect not) women, and generally these women were the wives of bakers (thus having access to yeast and grains). 

Maybe our heroine could be wandering the Bohemian countryside collecting beer recipes? 

I think she would be similar to the male character in the main game. I mean he was a blacksmith but we didn't spend the whole game shoeing horses. The war will screw her life up and we deal with the consequences.

[Valmy]

I think the argument is that what we think the role of women was in late medieval europe was is not entirely correct - that we're more confusing it with a more 19th century perspective when women had far fewer rights when compared to the 15th century.

Relying on stereotypes instead of exploring a topic is pretty tiresome.

[Oexmelin]

I think the argument is that what we think the role of women was in late medieval europe was is not entirely correct - that we're more confusing it with a more 19th century perspective when women had far fewer rights when compared to the 15th century.

Precisely. Already the issue of "rights" is anachronistic, for there were many legal regimes throughout Europe, and many of them granted equal rights of inheritance to women, the capacity to deal with, and preserve, their own property. As grumbler suggests, the story of how a male serf would suddenly rise to be a noble hero would be similarly extraordinary, yet I have a suspicion that this game's designers would be much less bothered by it than by the suggestion of a woman warrior.

Of course, extolling the virtues of strength and martial prowess, and patriarchal supremacy meant that violence against women, and silencing women's voices, were considered much more "normal" and thus, unremarkable. This I feel would indeed make a compelling story. But it would not prevent the existence of strong female characters - craftswomen, artisans, matriarchs, wisewomen/midwives, strong noblewomen with powerless husband. One can read, for instance, about Mahaut, countess of Artois, who led her own vassals on the battlefield; of Jeanne of Albret, a sharp mind who towers over her husband martial activity.

But, as garbon said, the game strikes me - superificially - as quite immature, both as a game, and as story/character, infused with the passion of a child for the Middle Ages: sword fights are cool, villains are evil, and heroes are noble, and women are icky. 

[Valmy]

That idea is out there but we'll see. As I said the promise was that the first DLC would be a story where you play as a woman.

[garbon]

Until a studio has proven they can deliver the goods, I'm wary of any claims that things will be fixed in patches or available as DLC.

[Valmy]

Of course, extolling the virtues of strength and martial prowess, and patriarchal supremacy meant that violence against women, and silencing women's voices, were considered much more "normal" and thus, unremarkable. This I feel would indeed make a compelling story. But it would not prevent the existence of strong female characters - craftswomen, artisans, matriarchs, wisewomen/midwives, strong noblewomen with powerless husband. One can read, for instance, about Mahaut, countess of Artois, who led her own vassals on the battlefield; of Jeanne of Albret, a sharp mind who towers over her husband martial activity.

Yeah there was never a well documented time in history, at least in Euroland, where there were not lots of important and influential women out there doing things. The stereotypes that they were all property and slaves annoys me, I mean it was pretty backwards and regressive by our standards in most ways but still...

[Valmy]

Until a studio has proven they can deliver the goods, I'm wary of any claims that things will be fixed in patches or available as DLC.

And you should be. We have people on this board playing the game. Let's see what they say.

[Valmy]

I do like the idea of a story where your gender matters. Not because I necessarily want games to make it a big deal in general but it is fun to do it from time to time. So I hope they do have a female-only story-line. I mean...unless it sucks.

[Solmyr]

The thing is, we already have about 103853984675839 stories where women are treated as lesser beings. I don't see why we need another one.

[Alcibiades]

It's pretty good.