Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Berkut]

Why is the discussion about Ukrainian economics and the EU pre-supposing that the goal of a non-Russian dominated Ukraine is to get into the EU, as if the realization that that is simply not possible makes everyone throw their hands up in the air and say "Oh well, I guess they can just become part of Russia then!".

Are those the only two options for the Ukraine - either membership in the EU (which cannot happen) or fuck 'em?

If I was Ukrainian, I would want my country to move in the best possible direction towards greater economic stability, growth, and maturation. The choice is not either immediate entry into the EU, or screw it, lets just become a pawn of Russia. Pawn of Russia is a terrible solution.

This entire thing did not blow up over the Ukraine spurning an offer to join the EU - it blew up over the leader of the Ukraine spurning an offer to simply become more closely aligned with the EU.

And that clearly is both possible and desirable for the Ukraine.

Quit with the moaning about how screwed up the Ukraine is, as if that means that their economic situation is so bad that it cannot possibly get better, so screw it. It can most certainly get better - better decisions made about moving forward can be made. They won't result in the Ukraine becoming Spain anytime soon, but so what? The goal is not to join the EU, the goal is to improve the economy and country. If that happens in a sustained manner, perhaps someday the Ukraine might be in a position to worry about the issue of joining the EU and whether that makes sense.

But it seems patently obvious that becoming Russia's satellite isn't the path to a modern, functioning liberal economy.

[Queequeg]

Giorgi Margvelashvili's Georgia is way friendlier to Russia than Saakashvili's Georgia but isn't a kleptocracy.

[alfred russel]

It's hard being a post Soviet male. Once they hit 60 they just start to vanish.

To understand the male demographics I think we have to look closer at the females. Have you seen how hot slavic women are in their 20s and what the babuskas look like? I think the males simply lose the will to go on.

[Sheilbh]

It can most certainly get better - better decisions made about moving forward can be made. They won't result in the Ukraine becoming Spain anytime soon, but so what?

Sad thing is what Spain and Europe would give for a Ukraine like youth unemployment rate below 20%.

[alfred russel]

I remember reading an American officials quote after a recent visit to China that it's mind-boggling that British Prime Minister would have an official trip to Beijing with no other purpose than to sell stuff.

Maybe our government should get over the mind boggle and consider following suit.

[Sheilbh]

How much of that was Cameron being a piece of shit though?

To be honest I think it's a trend that our armed forces are increasingly ornamental and our foreign policy is increasingly German. It's a shame. It won't change under Miliband either I imagine.

[Neil]

I find it pretty fucking sad that the birthplace of Liberty is now too chickenshit to take a stand against Russia because the oligarchs all send their kids to Public Schools and own tacky Victorian mansions.

They stay out of Mexico, we stay out of the Ukraine.  It's part of the deal.

Since when are you British?

[alfred russel]

How much of that was Cameron being a piece of shit though?

To be honest I think it's a trend that our armed forces are increasingly ornamental and our foreign policy is increasingly German. It's a shame. It won't change under Miliband either I imagine.

Please tell me Milibrand won't be PM. Can't you at least bring back Brown? I thought he was a good dude.

[Admiral Yi]

Same sort of reasons I support Baltic membership, Polish membership, Hungarian membership but wouldn't support Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine. They're expansions that make sense and perhaps Ukraine could've been in the 90s, but couldn't now.

You mean now that Russia actions would render Article 5 more than mere words?

[Neil]

Isn't the whole point of NATO to confound and reduce Russia?

[CountDeMoney]

I find it pretty fucking sad that the birthplace of Liberty is now too chickenshit to take a stand against Russia because the oligarchs all send their kids to Public Schools and own tacky Victorian mansions.

They stay out of Mexico, we stay out of the Ukraine.  It's part of the deal.

Since when are you British?

I also build up all my armies in Siam to protect Fortress Australia.

[Sheilbh]

You mean now that Russia actions would render Article 5 more than mere words?

Maybe slightly. The context is different.

I think that in the 90s the Eastern Bloc had collapsed and we could be optimistic and perhaps a tad naive. In that context expanding to include the Baltics and Poland was right and even expanding to Ukraine could have been plausible (if retrospectively a mistake). It wouldn't have been unimaginable in the 90s to one day think even Russia could join NATO.

I think, since Putin's come to power and especially since the war in Georgia, that to expand to areas of 'Russian influence' would be knowingly provocative. It'd invite Russia to test the extent of our attachment and possibly render NATO a joke.

We've gone from the end to the return of history. So Russia's back to being Russia.

[Capetan Mihali]

Please tell me Milibrand won't be PM. Can't you at least bring back Brown? I thought he was a good dude.

Did a heckuva job.

[DGuller]

Same sort of reasons I support Baltic membership, Polish membership, Hungarian membership but wouldn't support Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine. They're expansions that make sense and perhaps Ukraine could've been in the 90s, but couldn't now.

You mean now that Russia actions would render Article 5 more than mere words?

Which makes perfect sense.  Bluffing at the pot that your opponent is interested in is a bad play.

[alfred russel]

Please tell me Milibrand won't be PM. Can't you at least bring back Brown? I thought he was a good dude.

Did a heckuva job.

I was talking about Gordon Brown, but if they wanted Michael Brown that would make sense. He ran FEMA for years and only lost one major city, and not even one of the really big ones. Acceptable losses. No one is perfect. Bush realized that at least.