Taliban Jews flees Quebec from persecution

[Siege]

I'm concerned with Viper's hatred for law abiding citizens with religious beliefs.

Tolerance is supposed to work both way.

[The Minsky Moment]

AFAIK governments can't remove children from parents without due process and proper proof, whether "crazy religious sects" are involved or not.

There has been due process.  But you don't wait 10 years in appeal court to remove children from crazy religious sects.

To elaborate because you obviously didn't read the story and simply focus on the "jew" part which seemed to have shocked you: Quebec's child services were about to intervene, so the sect moved to Ontario during the night, before due process could happen.

No the "jew part" didn't shock me because I am not a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist, so basically the case is no different to me than were Muslims or Christains or Wiccans involved.

What did get my attention is that aside from the lurid allegations of child marriage -- which apparently the Province has been running around seizing documents in an attempt to prove --  a lot of the claims seemed to be rather soft or somewhat subjective like "poor hygiene" , "skin problems" and poor "educational standards" (e.g. not teaching French or sex ed).
Now if the articles you cited contained any tangible evidence of abuse as opposed to mere allegation then I might have responded differently.  Of course that fact that a duly constituted governmental authority was "about to intervene" might carry some quantum of weight.  Then again, if that government authority is part of community that prejudges cases based on subjective appearance and considers basic concepts of the rule of law to be no more than a annoying inconvenience at best, perhaps not.

[viper37]

No the "jew part" didn't shock me because I am not a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist, so basically the case is no different to me than were Muslims or Christains or Wiccans involved.

Good.  I was wondering what happened to the old JR.  Now, do you think I am a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist?

What did get my attention is that aside from the lurid allegations of child marriage -- which apparently the Province has been running around seizing documents in an attempt to prove --  a lot of the claims seemed to be rather soft or somewhat subjective like "poor hygiene" , "skin problems" and poor "educational standards" (e.g. not teaching French or sex ed).

Do you know this history of this sect?  Let's see some pieces made by narrow-minded ethnic chauvinists from Israel:
Haaretz, part 1: Pire as the driven snow, or hearts of darkness

Haaretz, part 2: 'When you're on the path of truth, you don't care what others say'

Is Israel doing everything it can to help children of Jewish cult in Canada?

Ontario raid

A transcript of testimonies made by youth protection services in November reveals allegations that children were medicated with melatonin to control their behavior, and that they could be "in imminent psychological and physical danger," according to the CBC.

Now if the articles you cited contained any tangible evidence of abuse as opposed to mere allegation then I might have responded differently.  Of course that fact that a duly constituted governmental authority was "about to intervene" might carry some quantum of weight.  Then again, if that government authority is part of community that prejudges cases based on subjective appearance and considers basic concepts of the rule of law to be no more than a annoying inconvenience at best, perhaps not.

You mean a state like Israel who persecutes these members when they attempt to flee court orders?  Shocking.

I'd say when family members raise concerns about the children's welfare, there is serious doubt.  When child services uncover evidence of drugged children, there is more than serious doubt.  When the sect decided to flee in the middle of the night right before the child services can intervene, we have a smoking gun.

I have yet to see evidence that the Quebec state is prejudiced against any particular religion.  Do you have any evidence of some laws directed against a particular religious group?  Mistreatment of a particular group by a government office or state society?  Proof of any religious bias in how the state interacts with its citizens?

Or do you base your commentary about narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist soley because a jewish sect was targetted after multiple complaints from Israeli famly members, despite your previous statement to the effect that this group's religion had nothing to do with your statement?

[The Minsky Moment]

Do you know this history of this sect?  Let's see some pieces made by narrow-minded ethnic chauvinists from Israel:

No shortage of those types in Israel. 
However, I grant you Haaretz is a pretty decent paper.  let's see what they say:

Haaretz, part 1: Pire as the driven snow, or hearts of darkness

+Lev Tahor has lots of enemies, apparently many within the broader Haredi community that have made harsh accusations.
+ they pray loudly and for a long time and  their interpreation of kosher laws is very strict.
+ the are anti-zionist
+ they treat guests with traditional hospitality
+ Phys ed is de-emphasized and the kids are homeschooled
+ material things are not highly values and much modern technology is rejected
+ there have been accusations made of corporal punishment, but nothing proven nor any reliable testimony
+ Helbrans has been accused of kidnapping, and was once convicted on a conspiracy charge 20 year ago.

The conviction is quite troubling, but irrelevant to the Quebec allegations.  Much of the rest of what is in here is not particularly shocking or exceptional.

Is Israel doing everything it can to help children of Jewish cult in Canada?

More allegations from angry family members.  I symphasize but courts exist to determine the truth, not accept claims without inquiry.

Ontario raid

A transcript of testimonies made by youth protection services in November reveals allegations that children were medicated with melatonin to control their behavior, and that they could be "in imminent psychological and physical danger," according to the CBC.

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You mean a state like Israel who persecutes these members when they attempt to flee court orders?  Shocking.

I wouldn't expect the state of Israel to be particularly sympathetic to this group.  On the contrary, I would expect this group to experience considerable hostility in Israel both from secular Jews who would view them as "Taliban"  and orthodox/ultra-orthodox who would see them as heretics.  You shouldn't assume that just because Israel does something, I would think it merits approval.  That is almost as silly as assuming that everything Israel does must be wrong.

I have yet to see evidence that the Quebec state is prejudiced against any particular religion.

Nor have I.  I have no reason to think the authorities in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada have acted improperly.  On the contrary, I am defending those authorities to the extent they have acted in accordance to legal procedures that others find to be a hinderance of some kind.

[viper37]

More allegations from angry family members.  I symphasize but courts exist to determine the truth, not accept claims without inquiry.

But you can't determine the truth through an inquiry when the sect flees to avoid such inquiry.

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You can have morphine with doctor's prescription.  Doesn't make it any less of a drug.

You shouldn't assume that just because Israel does something, I would think it merits approval.  That is almost as silly as assuming that everything Israel does must be wrong.

No I don't, but it sheds doubt to your claim that the state of Quebec is bigoted and this inquiry into this sect's practices derives from such bigotry.

Nor have I.  I have no reason to think the authorities in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada have acted improperly.  On the contrary, I am defending those authorities to the extent they have acted in accordance to legal procedures that others find to be a hinderance of some kind.

Good.  For once, we are in agreement.
Now, there's the deal of this group trying to avoid being subject to the law and how to treat them accordingly.

[merithyn]

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You can have morphine with doctor's prescription.  Doesn't make it any less of a drug.

I knew it.

I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*  melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.

[The Minsky Moment]

Melatonin is nothing like morphine, as Meri's post indicates.  There are no known safety issues and anyone can pick it up at a local convenience store.  The packaging usually recommends doctor input but IIRC there is no legal requirement to do so.
The fact that this is being played up would tend to suggest weakness in the case, not strength.

[Berkut]

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You can have morphine with doctor's prescription.  Doesn't make it any less of a drug.

I knew it.

I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*  melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.

You give your children Taliban approved drugs, but refuse to vaccinate them.

You truly are a monster!

[Neil]

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You can have morphine with doctor's prescription.  Doesn't make it any less of a drug.

I knew it.

I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*  melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.

[merithyn]

I knew it.

I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*  melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.

You give your children Taliban approved drugs, but refuse to vaccinate them.

You truly are a monster!

My kids received all required vaccinations. Autism was invented after my kids were too old to catch it.

Plus, they got chickenpox the old fashioned way. They earned it.

[Razgovory]

Good.  I was wondering what happened to the old JR.  Now, do you think I am a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist?

I think that's an accurate characterization.

[Ed Anger]

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You can have morphine with doctor's prescription.  Doesn't make it any less of a drug.

I knew it.

I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*  melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.

Flintstones chewables addiction. 2 Barneys and they are hooked forever.

[derspiess]

Flintstones chewables addiction. 2 Barneys and they are hooked forever.

  Lola just recently figured out that Tommy gets two and she only gets one.  Yea, more LatinaRedhead temper tantrums!

[Ed Anger]

Flintstones chewables addiction. 2 Barneys and they are hooked forever.

  Lola just recently figured out that Tommy gets two and she only gets one.  Yea, more LatinaRedhead temper tantrums!

I'll pray for you.

[viper37]

Seriously?  In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement.  It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK.  If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.

You can have morphine with doctor's prescription.  Doesn't make it any less of a drug.

I knew it.

I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*  melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.

what's wrong with eating fruits and vegetables?