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Great Power Most Responsible for WW1?

Started by Queequeg, October 08, 2013, 11:40:24 PM

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Seems pretty self-explanatory.  Which great power bore the greatest responsibility for the outbreak of war in 1914?

Germany
10 (23.3%)
Russia
17 (39.5%)
Austria-Hungary
12 (27.9%)
France
1 (2.3%)
Great Britain
1 (2.3%)
Montenegro-the Jews-Bechuanaland Protectorate
2 (4.7%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Ed Anger

The Italian kept trying to bop the Austrian on the head but to his chagrin, his truncheon was made of rubber.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Ed Anger

Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Valmy

Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2013, 08:36:04 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 09, 2013, 08:31:07 AM
In some ways isn't this a bit like asking who started the bar-room brawl ?

Yeah. I mean look, they are counting the countless reasons each GP had to look for war. Totally pointless question who set it ablaze.

Yet we cannot seem to stop doing it.  Most modern historians seem pretty certain Germany started it these days, seems we have come full circle.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

grumbler

Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2013, 08:25:31 AM
Completely disagree.  Germany completely undermined Russia in the Balkans in favor of Austria and not renewing the alliance was simply a signal they would continue to back Austria.  Russia had to look around for friends to help her defend her interests and hey there was France.  But conflict in the Balkans was pretty likely even without France.

Completely disagree.  Germany generally supported a balance in the Balkans between Russia and Austria-Hungary, and restrained AH in the Serbo-Bulgarian War.  Not renewing the Reinsurance Treaty was a German signal to Great Britain that Germany wouldn't take sides in the Russian dispute with the UK (aka "the Great Game"), which was just then heating up again.  The Germans didn't think they needed a formal treaty with a power so traditionally aligned with them as Russia.  That was a blunder, of course, but not a deliberate one.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2013, 08:36:04 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 09, 2013, 08:31:07 AM
In some ways isn't this a bit like asking who started the bar-room brawl ?

Yeah. I mean look, they are counting the countless reasons each GP had to look for war. Totally pointless question who set it ablaze.
It is as totally pointless as any other historical question, and as totally pointed.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Tamas

Quote from: grumbler on October 09, 2013, 08:45:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2013, 08:36:04 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 09, 2013, 08:31:07 AM
In some ways isn't this a bit like asking who started the bar-room brawl ?

Yeah. I mean look, they are counting the countless reasons each GP had to look for war. Totally pointless question who set it ablaze.
It is as totally pointless as any other historical question, and as totally pointed.

I disagree.

grumbler

Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2013, 08:46:01 AM
I disagree.

Thanks.  I worried that I might be wrong, until you disagreed.  :P
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

Quote from: mongers on October 09, 2013, 08:31:07 AM
In some ways isn't this a bit like asking who started the bar-room brawl ?

Well, yeah.  Pretty much all the major powers could of have stopped the war, but either blundered into it or failed to prevent it.  For instance Britain was in the best position to be arbitrator of Europe but the government didn't do much to stop it, and there was ambiguity to whether they would come to the aid of France in the first place.  Ambiguity that helped fuel German aggression.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

merithyn

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2013, 11:43:17 PM
If Russia had not intervened and partially mobilized it would have stayed a local matter.

My thoughts, as well.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Valmy

Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2013, 09:23:21 AMFor instance Britain was in the best position to be arbitrator of Europe but the government didn't do much to stop it, and there was ambiguity to whether they would come to the aid of France in the first place.  Ambiguity that helped fuel German aggression.

I find this odd.  What exactly could the British have done to arbitrate?  What leverage did they have?  And how did the ambiguity help encourage the Germans to do something that might get Britain in the war?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

Quote from: merithyn on October 09, 2013, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2013, 11:43:17 PM
If Russia had not intervened and partially mobilized it would have stayed a local matter.

My thoughts, as well.

That strikes me as asking alot from Russia, just to stand by and watch their allies get steamrolled.  I mean they had sort of done that in 1908 already.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

grumbler

Quote from: merithyn on October 09, 2013, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2013, 11:43:17 PM
If Russia had not intervened and partially mobilized it would have stayed a local matter.

My thoughts, as well.
Yes, but that's the argument that the bullying would just have involved two students if the anti-bully hadn't stepped in.

Had Austria accepted the Serb response to the ultimatum, it would have stayed an even more local affair.  Austria pressed war so that "the empire can die decently;" Russia because its government was trying not to die.

Had Austria heeded the Russian threat and backed down (yet another Austrian opportunity lost), it would have remained a very local affair.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

The Brain

Quote from: Viking on October 09, 2013, 06:08:21 AM
I think it is hard to blame Russia for backing Serbia here (much I as I detest both nations today). Russia backed Serbia when the Austrian demands amounted to turning Serbia into an Austrian Vassal; ending it's independence.

Austria's unreasonable demands on Serbia started the war and Germany's system of alliances caused the war to be a Great War.

I think the US wasn't unreasonable when they took out the Taliban regime in Afghanistan.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Razgovory

Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2013, 09:37:54 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2013, 09:23:21 AMFor instance Britain was in the best position to be arbitrator of Europe but the government didn't do much to stop it, and there was ambiguity to whether they would come to the aid of France in the first place.  Ambiguity that helped fuel German aggression.

I find this odd.  What exactly could the British have done to arbitrate?  What leverage did they have?  And how did the ambiguity help encourage the Germans to do something that might get Britain in the war?

Britain was sort of outside the rivalries in Europe, had it's fingers in pies all over Europe, and this enormous navy as leverage.  Makes them fairly good arbitragers ( I spelled arbitrate incorrectly and got this word which I never heard of.  I decided to keep it in even though it has something to do with stocks).  The Germans are much more likely to act if they think Britain might join rather then if think Britain will join the war.  If someone might, do something there is a chance they might not as well.  That's how ambiguity helped fueled the war.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017