Italy to declassify "Years of Lead" secret documents

[The Larch]

Watch Il Divo

Il Divo is an English multinational operatic pop vocal group created by music manager Simon Cowell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Divo_%28film%29

This one is also good, based on the Roman gang that I mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanzo_criminale

[Capetan Mihali]

It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements. 

(As a tangential note, I think this link is part of what Lang's M explores, even though Ide didn't recognize it as such.)

Marx's whole theory of the lumpenproletariat came from what he saw as the decisive intervention by the Neapolitan lazzaroni in defeating the 1848 revolution and restoring the monarchy.

[derspiess]

It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements. 

I never thought of it that way.  Do you mean in Italy or the rest of the world?

[Capetan Mihali]

It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements. 

I never thought of it that way.  Do you mean in Italy or the rest of the world?

Globally, but not universally of course.  The Act of Killing documentary from last year was mostly about the "movie theater gangsters" (controlling the cinemas showing Hollywood movies, among other rackets) who were recruited by the anti-Communist paramilitary forces in 1960s Indonesia to do their torturing and killing in the city. 

Organized crime in Germany (using the front of "Ex-Convict Rehabilitation Clubs") managed to ally pretty well with the Nazi party, I think.  And of course kapos in concentration camps were mostly ethnic German recidivist felons who got to exercise an enormous sway over camp life.  The criminal element in occupied France and Eastern Europe was much more prone to collaborationism.  (Even Soviet vor had lots of tattoos denouncing Communism, along with anti-Semitic, Christian, and traditional Russian imagery -- though here, I don't think you can call it right-wing so much as just anti-social.]

Certainly the Mafia in America was very cooperative with conservative/nationalist/McCarthyist efforts.  Not just the Italians, some of the classic-era Jewish mobsters ended up with placements on the right wing as they started to go legit.

Marx's read, which makes some sense, is that if a group is basically parasitical on the ruling class hierarchy, they're going to resist radical change.  And since they're not workers, even though they're from the lower class, they don't develop the class consciousness that would align them with the left. 

Also, I think left-wing movements have tended to be a bit puritanical and reluctant to engage with the seedier elements of society, even though they might profess sympathy for their situation.  In the US, the whole Progressive tradition was very much against shutting down prostitution/drugs/alcohol/gambling since they saw "vice" in general as corrupting/exploiting the poor. 

On the other hand, far-left groups like FARC and Sendero Luminoso are more than willing to work the organized crime to sustain themselves off of drug trade money, and organized crime is more than willing to work with them.

[Sheilbh]

It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements. 

Hobsbawm is very interesting on this in Age of Revolutions. From what I remember he talks about the bandit as being tied in effect to an often legitimist rural proletariat, so they're used in opposition to urban liberals, enlightened despots and the urban proletariat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_bandit

But it is always striking that the Communist Party in Italy always did best in the economically very successful Po valley (like Red Bologna). From what I understand, by the years of lead the Christian Democrats heartland was the South and especially Sicily while the PCI were doing best in the North.

[derspiess]

Certainly the Mafia in America was very cooperative with conservative/nationalist/McCarthyist efforts.  Not just the Italians, some of the classic-era Jewish mobsters ended up with placements on the right wing as they started to go legit.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Marx's read, which makes some sense, is that if a group is basically parasitical on the ruling class hierarchy, they're going to resist radical change.  And since they're not workers, even though they're from the lower class, they don't develop the class consciousness that would align them with the left. 

I though most American gangsters, at least the Italian ones, generally had a working class identity.  They didn't rush out to join CPUSA of course but that doesn't make them not working class.

And don't forget the involvement of organized crime with labor unions.

[Capetan Mihali]

Certainly the Mafia in America was very cooperative with conservative/nationalist/McCarthyist efforts.  Not just the Italians, some of the classic-era Jewish mobsters ended up with placements on the right wing as they started to go legit.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Marx's read, which makes some sense, is that if a group is basically parasitical on the ruling class hierarchy, they're going to resist radical change.  And since they're not workers, even though they're from the lower class, they don't develop the class consciousness that would align them with the left. 

I though most American gangsters, at least the Italian ones, generally had a working class identity.  They didn't rush out to join CPUSA of course but that doesn't make them not working class.

And don't forget the involvement of organized crime with labor unions.

Yeah, I did overlook the huge union racketeering the mob was in.  I don't have a lot of info off the top of my head for the anti-communist alignment of various American Mafias and Mafiosi, but I recall reading about somewhere.  I'll try to search for it.  Of course, the Mob helped make preparations for the American invasion of Sicily during WWII, which I suppose goes towards patriotism, if not any particular left-right valence...

Gangsters generally came from a working-class background, but I think the idea is that they were no longer part of wage-laboring proletarian class that was supposed to be revolutionary.  And organized criminal life, classically, has been very aspirational in terms of conspicuous consumption, not being one of the square dupes who have to lug a lunch pail to work first thing in the morning, etc.  Which would tend to undercut a working-class political identity.

[Ed Anger]

Americans. 

Operation Gladio.

Good.

[Razgovory]

The last Republican mayor of Chicago was in Capone's pocket.  They haven't elected a Republican since.  Traditionally American organized crime has been anti-communist, Capone included.

[derspiess]

Americans. 

Operation Gladio.

Good.

We do not discuss Gladio.

[Razgovory]

Anyway, I like it when Derspeiss learns something about conservatives.  Of course due to cognitive dissonance he'll forget it within a few hours, but at least he knew something for a short period of time.

[derspiess]

Anyway, I like it when Derspeiss learns something about conservatives.  Of course due to cognitive dissonance he'll forget it within a few hours, but at least he knew something for a short period of time.

No shit.  I don't even remember it now.  What was it again?

[mongers]

I'd imagine if something like the 9/11 attacks had happened in 80s Italy, I think a lot of the nutty 9/11 conspiracies equivalents, might have had some plasuable grounding in facts.