August 6, 1945: The age of nuclear terrorism

[Darth Wagtaros]

So, is there any truth to that claim that Japan was offering surrender terms before the nuking?
This is not in accordance of what little I know about the Pacific Front.

They may have been offering terms, which is disputed. BUt the Axis Powers were required to offer unconditional surrender.

[Ed Anger]

Olympic and Cornet was going to be such a clusterfuck.

[Admiral Yi]

So, is there any truth to that claim that Japan was offering surrender terms before the nuking?
This is not in accordance of what little I know about the Pacific Front.

There is some truth to it.  There was a peace faction in the Japanese government.  They contacted the Soviets and asked them to forward a surrender proposal, keeping the emperor.  IIRC the Soviets did not forward the message but Truman was aware of it anyway.

However to say that Japan was offering surrender on those terms is a  stretch.  The war faction in the government was intent on fighting to the last man, woman, and bullet.  The discussions were kept secret from the war faction.  The war faction had effective veto over cabinet decisions because of the provision in the Japanese constitution that only a serving officer could sit in the cabinet as Army and Navy minister.

[Viking]

So, is there any truth to that claim that Japan was offering surrender terms before the nuking?
This is not in accordance of what little I know about the Pacific Front.

They may have been offering terms, which is disputed. BUt the Axis Powers were required to offer unconditional surrender.

Which was a key Soviet demand and ultimately the major concession (apart from not insisting that stalin actually keep his comittments) that stalin gained from the west at the conferances.

SO SOLLY

Solly? As in the nickname for the Solarian Alliance?

Japanese have trouble with the r sound.

WHY AM I EXPLAINING THIS JOKE?

To be honest, the Japanese do not have a problem with the "r" sound. SayonRa, SamuRai, SakuRa, Ramen, HiRoshima, NaRa, HaRa KiRi. They don't really have a problem with the "l" sound either. They just have one sound which in western languages is covered by two apparent separate sounds. The sound is closer to "r" than it is to "l".

The trope is that the CHINESE can't say "r". If you are going to use a racist asian stereotype, use the correct racist asian stereotype.

The actual japanese mis-pronounciation that completely confused me was "boating" vs "voting". I was invited to come along and asked if the weather wasn't a bit ominous to go boating. They looked at me strangely, I was a good sport and went along, bringing my rain-coat much to everybody's amazement. 15 minutes later we were back and I had seen that voting in japan is just as boring as voting everywhere else.

[Ed Anger]

Don't be that guy.

[katmai]

Don't be that guy.

But he's been that guy foreva!

[Viking]

Don't be that guy.

I'm gonna be the guy as long as you can't tell the difference between japan and china... wars have (and possibly will again) be fought of that specific topic...

[Ed Anger]

I'm done.

[grumbler]

There is some truth to it.  There was a peace faction in the Japanese government.  They contacted the Soviets and asked them to forward a surrender proposal, keeping the emperor.  IIRC the Soviets did not forward the message but Truman was aware of it anyway.

However to say that Japan was offering surrender on those terms is a  stretch.  The war faction in the government was intent on fighting to the last man, woman, and bullet.  The discussions were kept secret from the war faction.  The war faction had effective veto over cabinet decisions because of the provision in the Japanese constitution that only a serving officer could sit in the cabinet as Army and Navy minister.

Not quite.  There were some individual Japanese in the cabinet who hoped that th Soviets would serve as an intermediary with the US, but the Soviets refused to have diplomatic dealings with private individuals, and insisted that the Japanese engage in foreign policy through their government.

The War Faction in the government (which was pretty much the entire government, barring the couple of guys hoping the Soviets were nice people) didn't insist on fighting to the last man, woman, and child.  They did believe, however, that they would defeat the first American landing in Japan, and would then be in a position to demand the retention of the Imperial System as a condition of a Japanese surrender. 

Read the book Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0141001461 for a well-researched and compelling account of all these issues and the others surrounding the end of that war and in particular the decision to drop The Bomb.  It convinced me that using the bomb was the only humanitarian choice the US had.

[Ideologue]

Olympic and Cornet was going to be such a clusterfuck.

That's no joke.  Continued firebombings; continued external and internal blockade; obviously ground warfare, and in an environment where it would have been difficult to distinguish between civilian and soldier; probably large numbers of suicides as experienced on Okinawa; and of course there was our intent to use chemical weapons.

Without surrendering prior to Olympic--which is possible, but not certain--I'm convinced way more people would have died.

[Neil]

Yeah.  And the US didn't have the option to just sit back and starve the Japanese out of existence.  The American people were tired of the war, and the British even more so.

[MadImmortalMan]

I read that the US military's estimates for how many troops Japan had on Kyushu ranged in the 250,000 area, and the wildest high estimates they had were around 350,000. The actual number was almost a million. 

Even with seven or eight nukes at your disposal, that would have made Okinawa look like a tennis match.

[Viking]

I read that the US military's estimates for how many troops Japan had on Kyushu ranged in the 250,000 area, and the wildest high estimates they had were around 350,000. The actual number was almost a million. 

Even with seven or eight nukes at your disposal, that would have made Okinawa look like a tennis match.

Right now there is a video playing in my head cutting from a scene where one of these tennis broads makes orgasm sounds when striking the tennis ball cutting to a nuclear blast cutting back to the tennis broad orgasming again. I sort of expect it to keep playing on a loop for a while to come....

[derspiess]

I had to read that a couple times before I realized you weren't thinking about "head cutting"

[Siege]

SO SOLLY

Solly? As in the nickname for the Solarian Alliance?

Japanese have trouble with the r sound.

WHY AM I EXPLAINING THIS JOKE?

Do you know what's the Solarian Alliance?