Pope on gays : "Who am I to judge?"

[garbon]

I thought he meant within each religion rather than across religions.

I am not sure all religions even have much change within themselves.  I don't think the various Buddhist sects are iterative, for instance. 

I don't know enough about the various Buddhist sects - though the establishment of several different sects would suggest that an iterative process of interpretation occurred at least during some length of time.

[grumbler]

I don't know enough about the various Buddhist sects - though the establishment of several different sects would suggest that an iterative process of interpretation occurred at least during some length of time.

I don't think iteration means what you think it does.

[The Minsky Moment]

so, thats like almost 700 years after Philo of Alexandria... That just adds a second gripe, the different ways the religion was discussed with laymen and scholars. The two are nothing like each other.

More like 350 . . .It isn't surprising that laymen and scholars  see things differently.  Your average illiterate late antique paganus convert is going to have pretty simplified ideas about religion that indeed are likely to be indistinguishable from magic.

Of course the same could be said for the hard sciences.  The chairman of the physics department probably thinks about science differently from the way that your typical "jaywalker" would - the latter probably viewing the theoretical science as mumbo-jumbo and its applications as essentially magical in nature ("how does my cell phone work? it just does.")

[crazy canuck]

That reasoning only holds true if one assumes that all religion must be a literal understanding rather than a metaphorical understanding.  If you accept the latter then it is quite easy to understand how religion can be viewed as an iterative process of interpretation. 

I am not sure that there is any evidence that religion is iterative at all, except on an individual basis, or in the case of a few religions seen in isolation.  Buddhism isn't an iteration of Judaism, nor is Wicca an iteration of Sikhism. 

I thought he meant within each religion rather than across religions.

You would have to want to engage in a converstation without being an ass to come to that conclusion.

[garbon]

I don't know enough about the various Buddhist sects - though the establishment of several different sects would suggest that an iterative process of interpretation occurred at least during some length of time.

I don't think iteration means what you think it does.

A process repeated? So in this case, within a religion, repeating over and over an attempt at refining understanding.  Eventually though that can just lead to a split, as groups of people don't agree with/follow that "new" understanding.

[garbon]

That reasoning only holds true if one assumes that all religion must be a literal understanding rather than a metaphorical understanding.  If you accept the latter then it is quite easy to understand how religion can be viewed as an iterative process of interpretation. 

I am not sure that there is any evidence that religion is iterative at all, except on an individual basis, or in the case of a few religions seen in isolation.  Buddhism isn't an iteration of Judaism, nor is Wicca an iteration of Sikhism. 

I thought he meant within each religion rather than across religions.

You would have to want to engage in a converstation without being an ass to come to that conclusion.

Well yes, that's why I said something as his comment seemed...just spiteful.

[Tamas]

  Berkut makes a well thought out, coherent post which approaches both sides of the argument with proper respect.

And it is ignored while everybody engages in grumblerism.

Languish at its best. 

[The Minsky Moment]

Moses had doubts about himself and his self worth. When god gave him tangible evidence (something he refuses to do for me), moses had none.

Not so - he kept disobeying, up until the very end.  Recall why he was not permitted to enter the promised land.
Moses' resistance and disobedience is very significant; it is part of a core literary trope that runs throughout the entire OT. 

[The Minsky Moment]

My success has been in converting pro-palestinians to either neutrals or pro-israelis.

See now there is a productive use of your time.

[DGuller]

Tamas is just angry because after Stephen the Catholic Church stopped canonizing Hungarian holy men.  The best they could hope for was beetification.

Joan has sunk to beet jokes.

And it was beetiful. 

[grumbler]

A process repeated? So in this case, within a religion, repeating over and over an attempt at refining understanding.  Eventually though that can just lead to a split, as groups of people don't agree with/follow that "new" understanding.

No, that's not what iterate means.  To iterate is to repeat a process, taking the results of each iteration as the starting point for the next iteration, with an end in mind.  By definition, later iterations are closer to the goal than earlier ones.

In religion, this isn't accepted by anyone that I know of; no one argues that their understanding is superseded by another religion because that other religion started later, but is based on the person's own religion (think Jews conceding that all Christians are more correct, and Christians that Muslims are more correct).

Interpretation surely do vary (of things as basic as the answer to "is there a god?"), but the answers are not iterative.

The branching into sects is the norm, I think, but I don't see how that can be viewed as "iterative" since it meets none of the basic elements of the word's definition.

[garbon]

No, that's not what iterate means.  To iterate is to repeat a process, taking the results of each iteration as the starting point for the next iteration, with an end in mind.  By definition, later iterations are closer to the goal than earlier ones.

Except that is the same as my first two sentences combined.

In religion, this isn't accepted by anyone that I know of; no one argues that their understanding is superseded by another religion because that other religion started later, but is based on the person's own religion (think Jews conceding that all Christians are more correct, and Christians that Muslims are more correct).

And good thing no one is saying that.

[The Minsky Moment]

Viking and Tamas are fundamentally right - there is a very basic problem with the claims that religious beliefs ought to inform our actions, while at the same time accepting that those religious beliefs are not in fact the product of some form of external revelation in some fashion, but simply the consequences of societal norms. Why not just let the societal norms coupled with out personal views and perceptions inform our actions, and leave the religion out of it?

Because for many people, religion is completely intertwined withe those social norms, views, and perceptions, so what you propose is not possible.

The only justification for letting religion into the mix is the claim, at some level, that there is some kind of external validity to religion outside of human experience,

Why is that necessary? 

[grumbler]

Berkut makes a well thought out, coherent post which approaches both sides of the argument with proper respect.

And it is ignored while everybody engages in grumblerism.

Languish at its best. 

Awww, you haz a sad because Berkut said you had a point and people didn't agree with him quickly enough? 

I have never disagreed that you have some good points - I have objected to the emotional way you approach what should be, if you are correct about your own beliefs, a purely intellectual exercise.

You are not alone in your emotionalism - I cannot even observe that religion doesn't appear to be iterative without being accused of being "spiteful."

[grumbler]

Except that is the same as my first two sentences combined.

No.  Simply repeating a process over and over again is not iterating.  You stated earlier that Buddhism's divisions into sects was, to you, a sign of iteration.  It isn't, because iteration doesn't mean dividing.

And good thing no one is saying that.

Certainly better than saying that " the establishment of several different sects would suggest that an iterative process of interpretation occurred at least during some length of time."