Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[PJL]

In a sense it doesn't really matter since we are talking about economics rather than education per se. The point is that foreigners are willing to pay large sums for a British education, it is a profitable export industry that provides many good jobs and we can use the foreign exchange to buy the stuff that we are relatively bad at making.

However the point of education isn't meant to be to make money in itself but to create the conditions (educated workforce, innovation, etc...) by which other segments of the economy can enjoy success.

Fair enough that Britain is doing well selling this 'product' to foreigners. But are we sacrificing our broader economic success and the wellbeing of our people as a result?

Is there so much extra value from all those Chinese students paying big money to get a bit of paper from Teeside University (completely random example name, no comment on its actual quality) to make it worth so many local students paying £9k a year for worthless degrees in finger painting  rather than getting polytechnic qualifications that directly set them up for skilled work?

I can easily see Michael Gove and other Tory ministers making the same point you have made, especially the last paragraph.

[Josquius]

In big news at the moment, the Tory defection is pretty dodgy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/08/keir-starmer-sparks-labour-anger-with-decision-to-admit-natalie-elphicke

Keir Starmer sparks Labour anger with decision to admit Natalie Elphicke
MP says many in party think rightwing Tory defector is 'vile', while shadow minister asks: 'Are we welcoming Farage next week?'

Keir Starmer is facing shadow cabinet anger for welcoming into his party a rightwing Conservative MP who has repeatedly attacked Labour over migration.

Natalie Elphicke became on Wednesday the second Tory MP in two weeks to cross the floor of the Commons, dealing another major blow to Rishi Sunak.

Starmer welcomed Elphicke to the Labour party at prime minister's questions and said the Conservatives were "failing to keep our borders safe and secure".

Elphicke quit the Conservatives with a broadside against Sunak, saying that under his leadership the Tories had become "a byword for incompetence and division" and had abandoned the centre ground.

But Starmer's decision to admit her to Labour has been met with bafflement and consternation from his MPs, including some in the shadow cabinet and on the frontbench. MPs and shadow cabinet sources expressed reservations about her past comments and conduct.

Labour sources said Starmer had met a hostile response over the defection at a gathering of the party's parliamentary committee. They said he was challenged about Elphicke's values and whether a rightwinger with her record should be welcome in the Labour party.

One shadow cabinet minister said: "People are upset and angry right across the party about the decision."

Another shadow minister said: "Logically or politically, we didn't need this ... I worry that they'll not have done sufficient due diligence on her." They added: "Her hard-right views are a big red line too. Are we welcoming Nigel Farage next week?"

Welcoming Elphicke to the Labour party at PMQs, the Labour leader asked Sunak: "What is the point of this failed government staggering on ... [when] the Tory MP for Dover, on the frontline of the small boats crisis, says the prime minister cannot be trusted with our borders?"

Conservative MPs were flabbergasted by Elphicke's defection. She had been a member of the rightwing European Research Group of Tory MPs and a vocal proponent for tougher rightwing politics. One minister said her move marked the "new ERG wing of the Labour party".

Critics pointed to Elphicke's comments on migration and strident criticism of Labour's policies. A year ago she wrote an article for the Daily Express calling Starmer "Sir Softie" and accusing Labour of wanting "open borders". She wrote: "Not only have Labour got no plan of their own to tackle illegal immigration, they simply do not want to."

In 2021 she clashed with the England footballer Marcus Rashford, who she said should have spent more time "perfecting his game and less time playing politics" – a reference to his campaign for free school meals – after he missed a penalty at the Euro 2020 final. She later apologised.

One Labour MP said there was significant anger among some women in the party about the decision to admit Elphicke. "Most of us on the backbenches struggle to get any contact at all from the Labour leader or his team – perhaps if we were to stand in front of a few more flags or join the [European Research Group]?"

An MP on the left of the party added: "I think many in the party think it's disgusting, that we don't need people like that in the Labour party, and that she is absolutely vile ... Who in their right mind thought this was helpful?"

A former shadow minister said: "Many of us didn't fight Momentum only to see our leader welcome Reform in the front door."

Another source of controversy is Elphicke's record of defending her former husband, Charlie Elphicke, whom she succeeded as MP for Dover after he was suspended from the Conservative party over sexual assault allegations. He was found guilty two years later.

Shortly after his conviction, his ex-wife defended him in an interview with the Sun, saying he was "attractive, and attracted to, women" and that had made him "an easy target for dirty politics and false allegations".

In the summer of 2021, she became one of several Tory MPs who were given suspensions from the Commons and told to apologise for being found to have tried to influence a judge presiding over his trial.

The Guardian view on MPs crossing the floor: a triumph of political theatre over substance
Read more
Starmer's spokesperson defended the decision to admit her to the party. "It's a sign of the progress that we've made that people recognise that on some of the key challenges facing the country, the Tories have failed," he said.

"Here is someone who is willing to make the significant step of switching across to Keir Starmer's changed Labour party and that's something we're very happy to see."

A Labour source said Elphicke would not be fighting her seat at the next election, and had not been offered a job or a peerage, but could informally advise the party on housing policy. She is understood to have met Starmer once before crossing the floor.

Elphicke is the third former Conservative MP to defect to Labour during this parliament. On 27 April, the former health minister Dan Poulter joined Labour with a swipe at the government's record on the NHS. In January 2022, during Boris Johnson's leadership, the MP for Bury South, Christian Wakeford, defected citing the then prime minister's "disgraceful" conduct.

It is indeed very strange that Labour is allowing admission of someone from the right of the Tories (and she would join them). Surely a 'reform uk' defection would have made more sense for her?
The left of labour are throwing a fit and...their concerns are not without merit.

In a sense it doesn't really matter since we are talking about economics rather than education per se. The point is that foreigners are willing to pay large sums for a British education, it is a profitable export industry that provides many good jobs and we can use the foreign exchange to buy the stuff that we are relatively bad at making.

However the point of education isn't meant to be to make money in itself but to create the conditions (educated workforce, innovation, etc...) by which other segments of the economy can enjoy success.

Fair enough that Britain is doing well selling this 'product' to foreigners. But are we sacrificing our broader economic success and the wellbeing of our people as a result?

Is there so much extra value from all those Chinese students paying big money to get a bit of paper from Teeside University (completely random example name, no comment on its actual quality) to make it worth so many local students paying £9k a year for worthless degrees in finger painting  rather than getting polytechnic qualifications that directly set them up for skilled work?

I can easily see Michael Gove and other Tory ministers making the same point you have made, especially the last paragraph.

Some Tories have been known for bouts of sanity. :p

The overall broken system was the Tories doing originally though and another wing of the party would find this kind of questioning of the system to be heresy.
I'd say my view is rather more old school socialist.
Education one of the 4 (?) primary factors in ensuring economic success, any 'selling' of it should be a nice bonus rather than the sole goal.

[jimmy olsen]

Lol

https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1788538401873903941?s=21&t=rGfbArCioMiWx3c5Afnaag

[Valmy]

I can see why the Conservatives aren't in a hurry to have an election.

[jimmy olsen]

Don't Sinn fein have 7 or 8 seats? Tories would be in 5th place. 

[Barrister]

So the next election is projecting to go very badly for the Tories, but the idea they're going to win 6 seats and be the 4th or 5th party in Parliament seems unlikely.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

[Josquius]

I recall back in the noughties when I'd dream of a golden age where the Tories are dead and buried and the Lib Dems take their place as the other main party.
If only the Lib Dems had their shit in order then we could actually be heading there.

But yes. The Tories have a floor that is even harder to break than the Labour one.

[jimmy olsen]

So the next election is projecting to go very badly for the Tories, but the idea they're going to win 6 seats and be the 4th or 5th party in Parliament seems unlikely.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

The predict 472 Labour seats and 85 conservative seats, but they also offer up high and low estimates. The high estimate is 545 seats. So, it's within the realm of possibility