Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Easily.
Labour is a socialist party. The slightest incline of any sort of racism goes counter to the partys ideals and should be tackled. One guy in the party who is a racist is one too many.

But the way the media is presenting things is as if Labour is a anti semitic party. That it isn't just a labour internal issue of being too slow to remove bigots and be the shining example they should be. Rather that anti semitism is a huge and important part of what labour is.

Which is all rather coincidental when you have an increasingly outwardly bigoted, xenophobic conservative party across the aisle.

Racism in the party is something labour should obviously keep trying to eliminate, but if racism is an issue in this election then between labour and the Tories its just no contest. Yet its only labour who are getting flack for it.

It's the typical tactics of the hard right.
Scream bloody murder about someone having a milk shake thrown at them when your side is literally murdering people.

[Admiral Yi]

My impression is very different, that the story was driven by the complaints of Jewish Labour MPs about the treatment they received and the comments directed their ways.

But I concede that you have a wider exposure to British media and British news than I do, so I will not press my claim.  I would, however, be interested in hearing the perspectives of the other British posters.

[Valmy]

But the way the media is presenting things is as if Labour is a anti semitic party. That it isn't just a labour internal issue of being too slow to remove bigots and be the shining example they should be. Rather that anti semitism is a huge and important part of what labour is.

Well if Labour doesn't like that they need to replace Corbyn as party leader.

[Josquius]

But the way the media is presenting things is as if Labour is a anti semitic party. That it isn't just a labour internal issue of being too slow to remove bigots and be the shining example they should be. Rather that anti semitism is a huge and important part of what labour is.

Well if Labour doesn't like that they need to replace Corbyn as party leader.

There's a lot wrong with Corbyn.
Anti semitism isn't one of those things at all.

It's interesting how the media has pushed this story though. At first it was just that corbyn was soft on anti semites. Only with time did it become he is one himself.

[Razgovory]

I didn't know that the Tories were being given a free pass on Islamaphobia.

[Valmy]

There's a lot wrong with Corbyn.
Anti semitism isn't one of those things at all.

I disagree. He just got humiliated on the BBC because of anti semitism. Corbyn could have handled it, just like he could have many times, but he didn't as always. He is a failure and and Labour would be better off without him.

It's interesting how the media has pushed this story though. At first it was just that corbyn was soft on anti semites. Only with time did it become he is one himself.

It is entirely Corbyn's incompetence that keeps this going, not the media. They are just enjoying all the benefits this story gives them.

[Josquius]

There's a lot wrong with Corbyn.
Anti semitism isn't one of those things at all.

I disagree. He just got humiliated on the BBC because of anti semitism. Corbyn could have handled it, just like he could have many times, but he didn't as always. He is a failure and and Labour would be better off without him.

It's interesting how the media has pushed this story though. At first it was just that corbyn was soft on anti semites. Only with time did it become he is one himself.

It is entirely Corbyn's incompetence that keeps this going, not the media. They are just enjoying all the benefits this story gives them.

That's more down to incompetence and a unwillingness to play the game than anti semitic beliefs however.

As said. There's a lot to dislike about Corbyn. But being a racist definitely isn't one of those things.

[Sheilbh]

There's a lot wrong with Corbyn.
Anti semitism isn't one of those things at all.

I think people who knew who Corbyn was before he became leader were aware of his issues on anti-Semitism. This was raised before he was leader:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism
But people didn't care, he wasn't challenged on it during that campaign enough. The biggest issues I had with Corbyn in 2015 were anti-semitism and Ireland.

I don't know if he's an anti-semite - but I don't think that matters. At best, I think he just doesn't care about this form of racism enough to not associate with people who are but agree with him on other points. And that's been my view on him personally since long before 2015. About the most generous interpretation you can have is that he's the most unlucky anti-racist in history who routinely, accidentally finds himself sharing a platform with a bigot.

When he refuses to apologise (and he has apologised "for any hurt" before), if you're suspicious of him like me then you think maybe it's because he doesn't really think he's got anything to apologise for. I think for all his faults he doesn't like saying things he doesn't agree with and generally doesn't do it. But that also raises issues when he takes a minute of badgering before he agrees that the statement that "Rothschild bankers run Israel and world governments" is an "anti-semitic trope".

I mean even this morning when he launched his race and faith manifesto, he had on stage with him one person who'd defended Ken Livingstone over the "Hitler was a Zionist" comments and someone who had to apologise for retweeting stuff about "our Zionist masters".

As I say he could just be unlucky on this.

But the way the media is presenting things is as if Labour is a anti semitic party. That it isn't just a labour internal issue of being too slow to remove bigots and be the shining example they should be. Rather that anti semitism is a huge and important part of what labour is.

I mean part of this is the numerous Jewish Labour MPs and councillors who have resigned from the party, who have faced personal abuse from Labour members and supporters and several have noted that they reached out to Corbyn's office and weren't offered any help. Some of this is coming from the far-right but some if it is internal.

I've seen it at Labour party constituency events in South London and at the pub I was in on election night from Labour campaigners (admittedly same sort of lads who were chanting "salt the slug" whenever Tom Watson was on screen - so there's a bit of laddishness in general going on).

But that's part of it. The other side is, as you say, the complaints process. First of all this system was recommended by a respected independent barrister who said the main issue was the complaints process. She was then appointed by the Labour Party to the House of Lords and put in the shadow cabinet which, for me, raises questions about her independence in her recommendations.

But that process is slow it goes on numerous rounds, there's evidence of the leadership interfering, it takes a couple of years to do anything. And the definition of institutional racism is a failure of an organisation to provide a suitable service through processes, attitudes, systems which amount to discrimination which may be unwitting, or throughtless but disadvantages people of specific backgrounds. So for us, as gentiles on the outside, it's a slow process. For the minority group affected you see someone saying Rothschild bankers control world governments and, two years later, they're still at your local constituency events while the system works out.

I don't think there is another minority group that would have this kind of slow, ponderous complaints procedure and I think that's why thousands of people, including former Labour party members and Labour party staff have made the complaint to the EHRC that the party is currently institutionally anti-semitic. It is failing to provide a suitable service for a minority group in its membership.

Separately on this interview I think the WASPI promise section could be just as damaging:
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1199411621400993792?s=20

[Sheilbh]

Also on Brexit the DUP may be shifting. They haven't ruled out supporting a Labour minority government (with anyone but Corbyn in charge) and have now also refused to rule out a second referendum.

I feel like nothing would be more objectively funny or deserved than English Tory Brexiteers losing it all because they pissed off the unionists.

[dps]

Easily.
Labour is a socialist party. The slightest incline of any sort of racism goes counter to the partys ideals and should be tackled. One guy in the party who is a racist is one too many.

But the way the media is presenting things is as if Labour is a anti semitic party. That it isn't just a labour internal issue of being too slow to remove bigots and be the shining example they should be. Rather that anti semitism is a huge and important part of what labour is.

Which is all rather coincidental when you have an increasingly outwardly bigoted, xenophobic conservative party across the aisle.

Racism in the party is something labour should obviously keep trying to eliminate, but if racism is an issue in this election then between labour and the Tories its just no contest. Yet its only labour who are getting flack for it.

It's the typical tactics of the hard right.
Scream bloody murder about someone having a milk shake thrown at them when your side is literally murdering people.

I find the idea that socialists can't be bigots to be laughable, because we have many examples of left-wing bigotry to look at.  And no, this isn't about the "The Nazis were socialist" argument.  Just look at how the USSR tried to Russify all their minorities (that they didn't try to simply kill off) or how the CCP treats Tibetans and Uighurs.

[mongers]

Also on Brexit the DUP may be shifting. They haven't ruled out supporting a Labour minority government (with anyone but Corbyn in charge) and have now also refused to rule out a second referendum.

I feel like nothing would be more objectively funny or deserved than English Tory Brexiteers losing it all because they pissed off the unionists.

Little Englander's* fail to grasp the importance of Britishness ?




* I know I'm not using the term in it's original sense, but it's use seems to have change considerable in recent years.

[PJL]

Also on Brexit the DUP may be shifting. They haven't ruled out supporting a Labour minority government (with anyone but Corbyn in charge) and have now also refused to rule out a second referendum.

I feel like nothing would be more objectively funny or deserved than English Tory Brexiteers losing it all because they pissed off the unionists.

Not going to happen. The stop Brexit ship has sailed. The Tories will win with a working majority with about 350 seats. Tonight's events have all but killed that off.

[mongers]

Easily.
Labour is a socialist party. The slightest incline of any sort of racism goes counter to the partys ideals and should be tackled. One guy in the party who is a racist is one too many.

But the way the media is presenting things is as if Labour is a anti semitic party. That it isn't just a labour internal issue of being too slow to remove bigots and be the shining example they should be. Rather that anti semitism is a huge and important part of what labour is.

Which is all rather coincidental when you have an increasingly outwardly bigoted, xenophobic conservative party across the aisle.

Racism in the party is something labour should obviously keep trying to eliminate, but if racism is an issue in this election then between labour and the Tories its just no contest. Yet its only labour who are getting flack for it.

It's the typical tactics of the hard right.
Scream bloody murder about someone having a milk shake thrown at them when your side is literally murdering people.

I find the idea that socialists can't be bigots to be laughable, because we have many examples of left-wing bigotry to look at.  And no, this isn't about the "The Nazis were socialist" argument.  Just look at how the USSR tried to Russify all their minorities (that they didn't try to simply kill off) or how the CCP treats Tibetans and Uighurs.

And yet for all of that, at the end of the Soviet Union it still had more* identifiable, distinct ethnic groups than nearly any other country.


* I'm guessing places like Papua New Guinea have more.



No question about Communist China, they have the power to homogenize the whole population

[mongers]

Also on Brexit the DUP may be shifting. They haven't ruled out supporting a Labour minority government (with anyone but Corbyn in charge) and have now also refused to rule out a second referendum.

I feel like nothing would be more objectively funny or deserved than English Tory Brexiteers losing it all because they pissed off the unionists.

Not going to happen. The stop Brexit ship has sailed. The Tories will win with a working majority with about 350 seats. Tonight's events have all but killed that off.

I don't disagree.

And we're sailing into uncharted waters with an egotist at the helm, cheered on by moron passengers who've never been all at sea, til now.

[Sheilbh]

I still don't know. That could happen and is probably likely, but there is so much regional stuff going on I don't know what any of it means - also record levels of voter registration.

I still see the Tories losing seats in the South-West and Scotland and the seats they need to win to make up for that aren't "one more push" types. I'm just not sure, yet where they'll win bigger now than they did in 2017.

Also I suspect the less it looks like we'll get PM Corbyn then the more surprising results we'll get in the South because Remainer Tories can vote Lib Dem without worrying that they'll end up with Corbyn in government. The Lib Dems have been putting very good candidates deep into Remainer Tory territory Woking, Esher etc. It could be a massive mistake, but I feel like they have some reason to think something's up.

I remember in the run-up to this election there was a line in a Mail piece about the debate to have one in Nr 10 that struck me. Johnson was miles ahead on approval, the Tories had a 10-15% lead, but the Tories internal polling wasn't very good which was causing Johnson to hesitate.

Suppose we'll just need to wait and see tomorrows YouGov MRP