Recent posts

#21

Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic

Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 01:59:08 PM

If you are published weekly and a major news item JUST lands before you go to print perhaps indicate that fact? But no, a grabbing headline was just as important back then as it is now. That's my point. Grab the attention, clarify/disclaimer later. Just as nowadays. Same standards.

I think it slightly depends. If you're, say, the London Review of Books or the New Yorker then you can take your time. If your purpose is to be a newspaper then I think you have to scramble and go with what you've got at the point you're going to print - so if you're a Sunday and there's a terrorist attack like the Bataclan say on Saturday evening you have to scrap the front page you've got and go with what's breaking.

And I think in general it is right for people to be informed if imperfectly than news not to be reported. But again I think the news culture of that time matters. There were many, many papers coming out throughout the day - so the same paper might run several issues on the same day (like Syt's example of that Hong Kong paper doing three issues). Even within single runs it might change so it was really common for the headline of the first editions to be very different from the headline by the end of the run (which must be an archivist's nightmare). But even if the paper didn't run several issues each day - the "Daily" in Daily Express means it would be a morning paper - it was going to press with the understanding that there were loads of other afternoon and evening papers to go. There were kiosks and there were the newsboys running round shouting "extra!" for extra additions, new developments.

Because we now live in an age of immediate news cycles I think we view all newspapers as to some extent "of record". They're all fossilised in a moment. That was true for some newspapers in the 30s and 40s (like the Times) - but the vast majority were basically the equivalent of the liveblog or scrolling on social media. They were part of a dynamic, updating, rolling news ecosystem. But also because of that no-one's really going to wait another day for you to get it right when there'll be an update in the morning, lunchtime, evening etc.

Do we think that? I think we see all the time that initial reporting is inaccurate and even when the narrative coalesces we are left with open questions.

I actually was thinking less about reporting. In a way I think the sheer volume of immediately available information increases our suspicion of reported news and creates a (in my view) false impression that we are able to know ourselves because it's all there.

I'm not sure when actual knowledge arrives given it will always continue to be revised.

Oh yeah - totally agree. I don't think the first revision is conclusive I think knowledge may be building up all the time but not sure we ever reach actual complete knowledge.

It's interesting to think how papers would have worked in earlier times. Pre radio, pre telegram....
Something happened in the US!... Last week.

Not just in relation to news. You see it in the creation and running of large trans-contnental colonial empires. "Since my last letter, which you won't have yet, we are now at war with China" (genuine example in the First Opium War - although that's not the actual quote). Ambassadors, plenipotentiaries etc had huge power and importance.

But totally the case - I just looked up The Times archive in July-August 1789. I think the first reporting of the Bastille is on July 22. Interestingly (to Tamas') point it starts with a bit of fact-checking running a "Lies of the Day" article about the "daily prints [that] teemed with them". The World had the "most numeorous and conspicuous [lies], not having a single article accurately stated". It then goes on to quote the World, e.g.: "The Count D'Artois is fled towards German - False. [...] The Queen is gone for Germany - False. [...] The King has retired to Compeigne - False, he is at Versailles." Then in a further article notes "a very curious report has gone abroad of the Bastille's having been demolished during the riots in Paris" - this again is actually to fact-check it and say it's not been pulled down that's just a conflation from the "wretched inhabitants" having been freed by the crowds. This actually seems to become a bit of an idee fixe for the Times - they return to it on August 6 noting that "notwithstanding the assertion of some in the prints a fortnight since" that the Bastille had been demolished "our last letters from Paris state that 500 workers are constantly employed on its demolition" - which seems to be missing the woods for the trees They have lots and lots of other reporting on France atthe time but nice to see that the need to be right v Fleet Street rivals is also a venerable tradition. It's very "well actually" on Twitter.

It is really interesting just how much it foregrounds the nature of the reports they're getting flagging the best letters, the most recent letters etc. In a way I think this is something the press should do more of now.

#22

Off the Record / Re: Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-2...

Last post by Razgovory - Today at 01:40:25 PM

There is no way those cowards will risk pissing off Daddy Trump

I think they would be fine pissing off Trump, but bringing down the US economy would likely bring down everyone else's economy.  It would be game of chicken, see who blinks first.  Trump often backs down with faced with real resistance.  Anyway, at this point I am fine with destroying the economy.

#23

Off the Record / Re: The AI dooooooom thread

Last post by The Minsky Moment - Today at 01:07:36 PM

Without Yu there is no Ming.

What use is either, without a Song.

#24

Off the Record / Re: Football (Soccer) Thread

Last post by Jacob - Today at 12:59:30 PM

#25

Off the Record / Re: Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-2...

Last post by Jacob - Today at 12:51:01 PM

There is no way those cowards will risk pissing off Daddy Trump

I don't think they're about to do it tomorrow or anything, but...

It seems to me that the current state of diplomacy is that you talk about cataclysmic things you can do, and then sometimes you follow through on them - fully or in part. And sometimes, of course, you don't.

I think this is a reminder from the EU that they in fact do hold some cards with real value, as well as a signal to the population of Europe that the disintegration of the relationship with the US is ongoing and that drastic action may be required.

#26

Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic

Last post by Syt - Today at 11:43:31 AM

When I began practising law, we still relied on something called the postal acceptance rule.  I won't get into the details of what the rule was, but suffice it to say that it was necessary because communications were delayed by the time it took the post office to deliver a letter.

And that was in the early 90s. Think about how much more inefficient communications were during the time you are being critical of.

Studied public administration in the late 90s. The accepted legal fiction was that an official letter (unless sent as registered mail with return card) was considered delivered after three working days (which was relevant for triggering deadlines, like how long does a citizen have to register his objection to a letter). Many written exams liked playing around with the mailing dates of administrative letters and citizen responses (though it was usually the smallest part of the exams; the exams were then focused on the relevant area - social security law, environmental law, etc. though the most popular - at least in administrative procedural law - was examining public liability following damages caused by a private third party acting on behalf of the public entity, e.g. a towing company, or a building/repair firm ).

#27

Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic

Last post by Syt - Today at 11:36:09 AM

Yes. They wrote and received letters, and had postal services. And yes, they had dated news, depending on the length of travel.

Yep, there is (was?) a website that archived Austrian newspapers, with some from the 1700s (IIRC) and early 1800s. Lots of week old (or older) news in those.

#28

Off the Record / Re: The AI dooooooom thread

Last post by crazy canuck - Today at 11:31:38 AM

Without Yu there is no Ming.

#29

Off the Record / Re: Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-2...

Last post by crazy canuck - Today at 11:29:42 AM

There is no way those cowards will risk pissing off Daddy Trump

 

Have you not been paying attention to all the things Europe has been doing that pisses off the Americans under the current regime?

#30

Off the Record / Re: Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-2...

Last post by Tamas - Today at 11:23:09 AM

There is no way those cowards will risk pissing off Daddy Trump