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#1

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by grumbler - January 16, 2026, 11:36:23 PM

Is JD Vance lawless when he states, contrary to law, that ICE agents have "absolute immunity?"

The woman who was assaulted in her car while trying to get to her doctor was not lawless.  She was never charged with anything.  Where her assailants lawless? Vance says it doesn't matter because they are immune to the law.

#2

Off the Record / Re: What does a TRUMP presiden...

Last post by grumbler - January 16, 2026, 11:27:35 PM

Four in ten Americans (41%) favor "stripping U.S. citizens of their citizenship and deporting them if they are determined to be a threat to the country."

How can anyone not read this and despair of ever restoring normalcy in the US? I'd worry if the percentage were 4%.

If such a law were ever passed, I'd hope they at least have the courage to name it "Nuremburg Laws 2nd Edition"

To be fair to Americans, I think in any population there will be a section that don't care about laws and rights for other people, favouring 'natural justice' instead.

I reckon at least 25% of the UK populations would have answered that poll in a similar way.

Really?  You think that 25% of the British people would say that it is okay for the government to simply "determine" that a British citizen is a "threat," strip them of citizenship, and deport them to wherever the government desires?

#3

Off the Record / Re: The Shooting Gallery: Poli...

Last post by grumbler - January 16, 2026, 11:20:52 PM

A pretty damning video analysis.

Gifted link:
Video Analysis of ICE Shooting Sheds Light on Contested Moments

The Yis of the world especially should watch this.

#4

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by OttoVonBismarck - January 16, 2026, 10:22:53 PM

What do you mean by "what's going on now" that you disapprove of and don't respect? I'm not aware of any counteractions to the ICE stuff.

I disrespect the name calling.  I disrespect the rock throwing. I disrespect the failure to obey lawful law enforcement commands.  I disrespect the demonization of ICE.

Disrespect is warranted when people behave disrespectfully. I haven't worked at ICE in many years since I changed jobs, but it wasn't in the stone ages--the agency today bears little resemblance to the legislative act that created it.

ICE is not empowered to enforce ordinary laws on citizens who are simply near their agents. That's the job of local PD, both as a matter of it being their expertise, and also as an actual matter of constitutional Federalism and even just the reality that ICE agents aren't broadly empowered to enforce criminal law in general.

A huge swathe of the agents hired are people who would not pass the hiring process at even some of the worst ran small town police departments in West Virginia or Alabama. Many of them have shown gross unprofessionalism that is likewise, rarely found even in the very worst ran local PDs.

They are routinely taking actions out of bound of their legal mandate, out of bound with any norms of training etc. Many of them appear to have not passed even basic background checks.

When you throw a huge flood of money and prioritize creating a de novo army from the least qualified--sorry, that isn't respectful behavior. The guys who signed up for it aren't behaving respectfully. That makes you ethically subject to disrespect.

#5

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by Admiral Yi - January 16, 2026, 09:39:26 PM

Joan described lawless (at least as it relates to Trump) as engaging in a lot action that he knows will be reversed by the courts.  I had no objection.

Wearing masks and not wearing name tags is institutional and deliberate.  So what?

Did your WSJ article offer any breakdown on unjustified and unjustified shootings?

#6

Off the Record / Re: [Canada] Canadian Politics...

Last post by crazy canuck - January 16, 2026, 09:27:03 PM

And unfortunately the Chief of Police in Ottawa chose the do nothing option

My question is more what can be done when the Chief of Police refuses to move?

Should it be up to the city council to demote him and replace him with an emergency session?  This applies not only for this situation, but any future disruptive protest. 

You can be sure unions are taking notes for their next strikes right now.  The next time they have a complaint against any government, for whatever reason, they'll feel free to engage in any disruptive action without fear of retaliation, send goons to disrupt the peace knowing any police action will be slapped down by the courts.

Any protest group willing to stage a violent protest will now be emboldened to take action too.  I fear there is no end in sight.

The police act independently to independently of the executive.  I don't think another failure to act by a police chief is likely, given that one was fired

#7

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by Sheilbh - January 16, 2026, 09:17:10 PM

I'm not sure there's much point in flogging the discussion of what is or isn't lawless again - as I think we have covered this pretty extensively before and I don't think either of us have changed our views significantly on this.

I also think it's a slight distraction - I'm sure other words would do - the key for me is that I think this is institutional and deliberate. It's not individual agents or even a rogue agency. It is a deliberate pattern of behaviour (two killings a month - five of which, incidentally, were citizens) because it's coming from the top and is being politically protected.

#8

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by Admiral Yi - January 16, 2026, 09:09:07 PM

You might not have seen it as I posted it in the other thread, but WSJ investigation has found 13 similar killings by ICE since July:
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/videos-show-how-ice-vehicle-stops-can-escalate-to-shootings-caf17601?st=pCHtaR

Although I don't think the moral character of any individual matters here. As we've discussed I think they're institutionally lawless: masked, ID-less, shooting people at traffic stops, disappearing people. It's paramilitary shit.

I'd add the polling on this is interesting. This incident has really cut through and the polls for the first time show more support for abolishing than supporting ICE. I think in part because it's a clarifying incident rather than a surprising one.

Paywalled.

The word "lawless" seems to be taking on a new meaning.  I looked up the definition:

not governed by or obedient to laws; characterized by a lack of civic order.

By that definition the illegal immigrants being deported are clearly lawless.  So are the protestors who obstruct. What laws are the vast majority of ICE agents breaking? I'm unaware of laws that forbid masks or require name tags.

So what does lawless mean to you?

Are European antiterrorism units which wear masks lawless?

#9

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by Sheilbh - January 16, 2026, 08:50:19 PM

Sure why not?  One ICE agent shot one person.  Before it happened you were sure every member of ICE was an asshole. Now  you are sure every member of ICE is an asshole.

You might not have seen it as I posted it in the other thread, but WSJ investigation has found 13 similar killings by ICE since July:
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/videos-show-how-ice-vehicle-stops-can-escalate-to-shootings-caf17601?st=pCHtaR

Although I don't think the moral character of any individual matters here. As we've discussed I think they're institutionally lawless: masked, ID-less, shooting people at traffic stops, disappearing people. It's paramilitary shit.

I'd add the polling on this is interesting. This incident has really cut through and the polls for the first time show more support for abolishing than supporting ICE. I think in part because it's a clarifying incident rather than a surprising one.

#10

Off the Record / Re: US - Greenland Crisis Thre...

Last post by Admiral Yi - January 16, 2026, 08:41:38 PM

The demonization of ICE? At this precise moment?

Sure why not?  One ICE agent shot one person.  Before it happened you were sure every member of ICE was an asshole. Now  you are sure every member of ICE is an asshole.