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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: viper37 on September 01, 2020, 12:09:59 pm

Title: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 01, 2020, 12:09:59 pm
Link (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/academics-are-really-really-worried-about-their-freedom/615724/)
Quote
ur national reckoning on race has brought to the fore a loose but committed assemblage of people given to the idea that social justice must be pursued via attempts to banish from the public sphere, as much as possible, all opinions that they interpret as insufficiently opposed to power differentials. Valid intellectual and artistic endeavor must hold the battle against white supremacy front and center, white people are to identify and expunge their complicity in this white supremacy with the assumption that this task can never be completed, and statements questioning this program constitute a form of “violence” that merits shaming and expulsion.

Skeptics have labeled this undertaking “cancel culture,” which of late has occasioned a pushback from its representatives. The goal, they suggest, is less to eliminate all signs of a person’s existence—which tends to be impractical anyway— than to supplement critique with punishment of some kind. Thus a group of linguists in July submitted to the Linguistic Society of America a petition not only to criticize the linguist and psychologist Steven Pinker for views they considered racist and sexist, but to have him stripped of his Linguistic Society of America fellow status and removed from the organization’s website listing linguist consultants available to the media. An indication of how deeply this frame of mind has penetrated many of our movers and shakers is that they tend to see this punishment clause as self-evidently just, as opposed to the novel, censorious addendum that it is.
More by this writer

    Trader Joe’s Knows That Petitions Aren’t Commandments
    John McWhorter
    The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility
    John McWhorter
    The Dictionary Definition of Racism Has to Change
    John McWhorter

Another defense of sorts has been to claim that even this cancel-culture lite is not dangerous, because it has no real effect. When, for instance, 153 intellectuals signed an open letter in Harper’s arguing for the value of free speech (I was one of them), we were told that we were comfortable bigwigs chafing at mere criticism, as if all that has been happening is certain people being taken to task, as opposed to being shamed and stripped of honors.

Read: A deeply provincial view of free speech

To the extent that the new progressives acknowledge that some prominent people have been unfairly tarred—including the food columnist Alison Roman, the data analyst David Shor, and the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art senior curator Gary Garrels—they often insist that these are mere one-off detours rather than symptoms of a general cultural sea change.

For example, in July I tweeted that I (as well as my Bloggingheads sparring partner Glenn Loury) have been receiving missives since May almost daily from professors living in constant fear for their career because their opinions are incompatible with the current woke playbook. Then various people insisted that I was, essentially, lying; they simply do not believe that anyone remotely reasonable has anything to worry about.

However, hard evidence points to a different reality. This year, the Heterodox Academy conducted an internal member survey of 445 academics. “Imagine expressing your views about a controversial issue while at work, at a time when faculty, staff, and/or other colleagues were present. To what extent would you worry about the following consequences?” To the hypothetical “My reputation would be tarnished,” 32.68 percent answered “very concerned” and 27.27 percent answered “extremely concerned.” To the hypothetical “My career would be hurt,” 24.75 percent answered “very concerned” and 28.68 percent answered “extremely concerned.” In other words, more than half the respondents consider expressing views beyond a certain consensus in an academic setting quite dangerous to their career trajectory.

So no one should feign surprise or disbelief that academics write to me with great frequency to share their anxieties. In a three-week period early this summer, I counted some 150 of these messages. And what they reveal is a very rational culture of fear among those who dissent, even slightly, with the tenets of the woke left.

The degree of sheer worry among the people writing to me is poignant, and not just among nontenured faculty. (They write to me privately, and for that reason I will not share names.) One professor notes, “Even with tenure and authority, I worry that students could file spurious Title IX complaints … or that students could boycott me or remove me as Chair.” I have no reason to suppose that he is being dramatic, because exactly this, he says, happened to his predecessor. 

A statistics professor says:

    I routinely discuss the fallacy of assuming that disparity implies discrimination, which is just a specific way of confusing correlation for causality. Frankly, I'm now somewhat afraid to broach these topics … since according to the new faith, disparity actually is conclusive evidence of discrimination.

The new mood has even reached medieval studies; an assistant professor reports having recently just survived an attack by a cadre of scholars who are “unspeakably mean and disingenuous once they have you in their sights,” regularly “mounting PR campaigns to get academics and grad students fired, removed from programs, expelled from scholarly groups, or simply to cease speaking.”

Conor Friedersdorf: Why I cover campus controversies

Being nonwhite leaves one protected in this environment only to the extent that one toes the ideological line. An assistant professor of color who cannot quite get with the program writes, “At the moment, I’m more anxious about this problem than anything else in my career,” noting that “the truth is that over the last few years, this new norm of intolerance and cult of social justice has marginalized me more than all racism I have ever faced in my life.”

The charges levied against many of these professors are rooted in a fanatical worldview, one devoted to spraying for any utterances possibly interpretable as “supremacist,” although the accusers sincerely think they have access to higher wisdom. A white professor read a passage from an interview with a well-known Black public intellectual who mentions the rap group NWA, and because few of the students knew of the group’s work at this late date, the professor parenthetically noted what the initials stand for. None of the Black students batted an eye, according to my correspondent, but a few white students demanded a humiliating public apology.

This episode represents a pattern in the letters, wherein it is white students who are “woker” than their Black classmates, neatly demonstrating the degree to which this new religion is more about virtue signaling than social justice. From the same well is this same professor finding that the gay men in his class had no problem with his assigning a book with a gay slur in its title, a layered, ironic title for a book taking issue with traditional concepts of masculinity—but that a group of straight white women did, and reported him to his superiors.

Overall I found it alarming how many of the letters sound as if they were written from Stalinist Russia or Maoist China. A history professor reports that at his school, the administration is seriously considering setting up an anonymous reporting system for students and professors to report “bias” that they have perceived. One professor committed the sin of “privileging the white male perspective” in giving a lecture on the philosophy of one of the Founding Fathers, even though Frederick Douglass sang that Founder’s praises. The administration tried to make him sit in a “listening circle,” in which his job was to stay silent while students explained how he had hurt them—in other words, a 21st-century-American version of a struggle session straight out of the Cultural Revolution.

The result is academics living out loud only in whispers. A creative-writing instructor:

    The majority of my fellow instructors and staff constantly self-censor themselves in fear of being fired for expressing the “wrong opinions.” It’s gotten to the point where many are too terrified to even like or retweet a tweet, lest it lead to some kind of disciplinary measure … They are supporters of free speech, scientific data, and healthy debate, but they are too fearful today to publicly declare such support. However, they’ll tell it to a sympathetic ear in the back corner booth of a quiet bar after two or three pints. These ideas have been reduced to lurking in the shadows now.

Some will process this as a kind of whining, supposing that all we should really be concerned about is whether people are outright dismissed. However, elsewhere a hostile work environment is considered a breach of civil rights, and as one correspondent wrote, “It isn’t just fear of firing that motivates professors and grad students to be quiet. It is a desire to have friends, to be part of a community. This is a fundamental part of human psychology. Indeed, experiments examining the effects of ostracism highlight what a powerful existential threat it is to be ignored, excluded, or rejected. This has been documented at the neurological level. Ostracism is a form of social death. It is a very potent threat.”

Read: The chilling effect of fear at America’s colleges

Especially sad is the extent to which this new Maoism can dilute the richness of a curriculum and discourage people from becoming professors at all. One professor has stopped teaching James Baldwin’s “Going to Meet the Man” after Black students claimed that it forced them to “re-live intergenerational trauma.” I have heard from not one but two philosophy doctorates who left academia. One explained that he was driven out by the “accelerating creep of what felt to me a pretty stifling orthodoxy. The hiring market was dominated by a concern for diversity statements, the ability to teach fairly ideologically-slanted courses on philosophy and critical race theory or philosophy and gender, etc.; and more generally it felt progressively less like a profession where I could opt out of those trends while still being a competitive job applicant.”

Very few of the people who wrote to me are of conservative political orientation. Rather, a main thread in the missives is people left-of-center wondering why, suddenly, to be anything but radical is to be treated as a retrograde heretic. Thus the issue is not the age-old one of left against right, but what one letter writer calls the “circular firing squad” of the left: It is now no longer “Why aren’t you on the left?” but “How dare you not be as left as we are.”

To some, the evidence of Heterodox Academy’s member survey plus my correspondents will still qualify as mere “anecdata”—after all, both groups are self-selecting—such that only a long-term academic study carefully interviewing at length a good 3,000 professors and submitting their responses to statistical analysis would qualify as empirically compelling. But let’s face it: Half a dozen reports of teachers grading Black students more harshly than white students would be accepted by many as demonstrating a stain on our entire national fabric. These 150 missives stand as an articulate demonstration of something general—and deeply disturbing—as well.
I would be really worried at that trend if I did not know from the left that it's all a fallacy and exists only in our mind, or for the few cases that it exists, it is perfectly justified.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 02:03:47 pm
I mean I though academic freedom was part of these institutions to protect professors from things like this :hmm:

Quote
I would be really worried at that trend if I did not know from the left that it's all a fallacy and exists only in our mind, or for the few cases that it exists, it is perfectly justified.

Dude don't be so insufferable if you want to cause a discussion. Plenty of people on this board, including many of us to your left, has been banging the drum about this for awhile.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 01, 2020, 03:25:18 pm
I mean I though academic freedom was part of these institutions to protect professors from things like this :hmm:

when has that ever stopped fanatics?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 01, 2020, 03:27:32 pm
I mean I though academic freedom was part of these institutions to protect professors from things like this :hmm:

That's kind of covered in the article (ignoring all the academics who do not have tenure) - having to go through lengthy complaints processes, being removed from prestigious positions, having to go through Maoist "listening circles".
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Razgovory on September 01, 2020, 04:02:59 pm
Christ, not this again.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Berkut on September 01, 2020, 10:00:18 pm
Sam Harris recently had a great podcast where he engaged with someone from academia who had went after him on twitter for his Murray podcast. It was a pretty awesome discussion about this very problem, and is well worth a listen.

https://samharris.org/podcasts/212-july-29-2020/

Quote
In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Kathryn Paige Harden about the public controversy over group differences in traits like intelligence and ongoing research in behavioral genetics. They discuss Harden’s criticism of the Making Sense episode featuring Charles Murray, the mingling of scientific thinking with politics and social activism, cancel culture, environmental and genetic contributions to individual and group differences, intellectual honesty, and other topics.

Ironically, the exchange was setup by someone who knew both of them, and actually kind of coordinated the discussion. This person agreed to actually mediate the conversation - they would be on the line with both of them throughout the discussion, and if necessary, the discussion would be paused if needed, the moderator would try to resolve any issues, and then they would proceed. I think the idea was that Harris was concerned, after having tried this previously, that in semi-hostile discussions like this, the person he was talking to would simply refuse to address his points, and he wanted some neutral party to step in an force the conversation to stick to the agreed upon format. In any case, it turned out to not really be necessary, and the conversation was pretty great on both of their parts, I thought.

Anyway, the interesting part was that the discussion was all about how the current culture in the left simply does not tolerate certain topics to be discussed, and the risk to your career for many is too great, so they simply refuse to even get involved. The irony was that their moderator was "silent" precisely because they felt that while they thought Harris and Harden should definitely get together and talk, they did not feel their career would allow them to risk being seen as being on the wrong side of the discussion, or being seen as being in any way supportive of Harris, so much so that they insisted that their identity not be revealed.

Anyway, its a great discussion, and well worth a listen.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 01, 2020, 10:27:32 pm
Dude don't be so insufferable if you want to cause a discussion. Plenty of people on this board, including many of us to your left, has been banging the drum about this for awhile.
I don't consider you to the left.
The left to me, are those who believe the Democrat Party is too much to the right, or too moderate for their own tastes.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: DGuller on September 01, 2020, 10:55:33 pm
Anyway, the interesting part was that the discussion was all about how the current culture in the left simply does not tolerate certain topics to be discussed, and the risk to your career for many is too great, so they simply refuse to even get involved. The irony was that their moderator was "silent" precisely because they felt that while they thought Harris and Harden should definitely get together and talk, they did not feel their career would allow them to risk being seen as being on the wrong side of the discussion, or being seen as being in any way supportive of Harris, so much so that they insisted that their identity not be revealed.
That sends chills down my spine, and so does the attitude that dismisses this as nothing important.  When it comes to self-censorship, perception is reality.  If people are threatened enough to go anonymous in order to facilitate honest discussions, then self-censorship exists by definition.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 11:24:01 pm
Yeah it is a real problem but like most things it is being driven by a small group of fanatics.

The problem is when you create an atmosphere where you have to walk on eggshells to avoid being labeled a bad person, it empowers actual bad people since now being labelled a bad person just comes to mean you ran afoul of the fanatics not that you are actually bad.

Malthus has talked about this effect in the past, it seems to exist in many forms outside of academia as well in this golden age for busybodies.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 11:25:46 pm
Christ, not this again.

Well when it stops being a problem people will probably stop discussing it :P
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: DGuller on September 01, 2020, 11:29:46 pm
Yeah it is a real problem but like most things it is being driven by a small group of fanatics.
Whether it's true or not, so what?  The culture that makes people self-censor exists just the same.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 01:18:29 am
Dude don't be so insufferable if you want to cause a discussion. Plenty of people on this board, including many of us to your left, has been banging the drum about this for awhile.
I don't consider you to the left.
The left to me, are those who believe the Democrat Party is too much to the right, or too moderate for their own tastes.

To the left, to the left,
Everything you own in a box to the left
So we can redistribute it  :menace:
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 02, 2020, 10:27:51 am
Dude don't be so insufferable if you want to cause a discussion. Plenty of people on this board, including many of us to your left, has been banging the drum about this for awhile.
I don't consider you to the left.
The left to me, are those who believe the Democrat Party is too much to the right, or too moderate for their own tastes.

An odd remark for a Canadian to make.  The Democratic Party is further right than the Conservative Party of Canada.  Let me know when the Democrats fully support single payer health care.  Then they might start approaching not being too far to the right.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 10:34:56 am
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 02, 2020, 11:03:17 am
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.

You can believe them, or you can believe CC, whose single metric for leftism is to "fully support single payer health care."  Apparently Germany's Die Linke ("The Left") is a far-right party.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 02, 2020, 11:30:11 am
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.

You can believe them, or you can believe CC, whose single metric for leftism is to "fully support single payer health care."  Apparently Germany's Die Linke ("The Left") is a far-right party.

I was pointing out to a fellow Canadian that the Democrats are to the right of the CPC. 

I am not sure why you think that has anything to do with a German political party.  But please go on to attribute things to me that I did not say.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:52:27 am
Well in that one respect at least.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 02, 2020, 11:58:27 am
Well in that one respect at least.

Are we going to pretend that health care is not a major issue now?

But that aside, in what respect is the Democratic platform to the left of the CPC?  Renewal energy - CPC says they are for.  Abortion? - CPC says they will not legislate and the current leader is pro choice.

So let me know.  Is it just that one has "Conservative" in their name and the US is used to thinking that the Dems are left wing when in reality you have a two party state with both parties being to the right?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 12:01:51 pm
Well in that one respect at least.

Really, not even that. Supporting the status quo doesn't make Conservatives "left of" anyone.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 12:06:34 pm
An odd remark for a Canadian to make.  The Democratic Party is further right than the Conservative Party of Canada.  Let me know when the Democrats fully support single payer health care.  Then they might start approaching not being too far to the right.

if your sole point of reference is support for single payer health care I guess that's true (although many in the Democratic Party support single payer health care).

But otherwise this is a rather silly comparison.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:40:11 pm
An odd remark for a Canadian to make.  The Democratic Party is further right than the Conservative Party of Canada.  Let me know when the Democrats fully support single payer health care.  Then they might start approaching not being too far to the right.
Everything has to be analyzed in context.
Single payer health care is a non issue in the US right now.  There's no point in bringing it up, nobody wants it. There are only two parties.  If you come up with a proposal that rebuffs 50% of your electorate, you will lose the election.

Unlike Canada, you can't win points by promising the tough line on a particular State.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 05:39:45 pm
Well...except California.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 02, 2020, 06:15:24 pm
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.

You can believe them, or you can believe CC, whose single metric for leftism is to "fully support single payer health care."  Apparently Germany's Die Linke ("The Left") is a far-right party.

I was pointing out to a fellow Canadian that the Democrats are to the right of the CPC. 

I am not sure why you think that has anything to do with a German political party.  But please go on to attribute things to me that I did not say.

When I am directly quoting you, you cannot whine that I am attributing things to you that you did not say!  :lol:
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 03, 2020, 01:55:49 pm
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.

You can believe them, or you can believe CC, whose single metric for leftism is to "fully support single payer health care."  Apparently Germany's Die Linke ("The Left") is a far-right party.

I was pointing out to a fellow Canadian that the Democrats are to the right of the CPC. 

I am not sure why you think that has anything to do with a German political party.  But please go on to attribute things to me that I did not say.

When I am directly quoting you, you cannot whine that I am attributing things to you that you did not say!  :lol:

Correct, for do it and I will get off your back.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 03, 2020, 01:56:33 pm
An odd remark for a Canadian to make.  The Democratic Party is further right than the Conservative Party of Canada.  Let me know when the Democrats fully support single payer health care.  Then they might start approaching not being too far to the right.

if your sole point of reference is support for single payer health care I guess that's true (although many in the Democratic Party support single payer health care).

But otherwise this is a rather silly comparison.

I recognize you feel uncomfortable with the comparison.  But tell me, what exactly differentiates O'Toole from Harris?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 02:17:05 pm
I recognize you feel uncomfortable with the comparison.  But tell me, what exactly differentiates O'Toole from Harris?

Okay, so I'm comparing Kamala Harris' positions from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Kamala_Harris

and Erin O'Toole's from https://erinotoole.ca/platform/

Harris supports greater gun control, O'Toole does not.

O'Toole wants to reduce and simplify taxes.  Harris wants to cancel tax cuts for the wealthy and increase taxes on corporations.

O'Toole wants to cut funding to public broadcasting with an eye to privatizing it - Harris has no similar policy and likely supports public broadcasting.

Harris has supported efforts to cut police funding, O'Toole does not.

O'Toole opposes carbon taxes, Harris supports the Green New Deal - which includes carbon taxes.

I could go on, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea...
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:24:06 pm
Yeah but greater gun control in the US could still be far less gun control than currently exists in Canada.

I don't really understand the whole police funding thing. I think the idea is to transfer money to other organizations who can take over parts of the police departments duties rather than just expect the cops to be seriously underfunded (and they are already in many jurisdictions) as that would mostly just make them more corrupt. But I don't know, I don't understand that issue at all. But she is running for VP so she can easily advance those kinds of policies since she will not be in a position to actually do them.

Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now. We need to raise taxes and cut spending. Canada is in no such crisis regarding budget deficits, at least not near our scale.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 02:33:06 pm
Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now. We need to raise taxes and cut spending. Canada is in no such crisis regarding budget deficits, at least not near our scale.

Canadian budget deficit for 2020-2021 projected to be $343 billion dollars (before Covid it was supposed to be $34 billion).

US budget deficit projected at $3.3 trillion.  Adjucted for population size we're both in about equal trouble.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: The Brain on September 03, 2020, 02:33:49 pm
But Canada is nicer about it.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:34:01 pm
Yeah but we have been running huge deficits for nearly 20 years. Plus your taxes are probably significantly higher than ours currently.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: DGuller on September 03, 2020, 02:35:58 pm
Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now.
Why?  You're bored and want to see the country burn?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:38:23 pm
Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now.
Why?  You're bored and want to see the country burn?

I want to see the future of the nation secured, like we did in the 1990s. We did both of those things (raise taxes and cut spending) while the economy thrived it was almost a miracle and it worked...until Dubya and the Republicans decided all those balanced budgets was a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: DGuller on September 03, 2020, 02:41:05 pm
Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now.
Why?  You're bored and want to see the country burn?

I want to see the future of the nation secured, like we did in the 1990s. We did both of those things (raise taxes and cut spending) while the economy thrived it was almost a miracle and it worked...until Dubya and the Republicans decided all those balanced budgets was a terrible idea.
I guess the key word is "right now".
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: The Brain on September 03, 2020, 02:42:29 pm
Defunding the police and postal services is a start.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:46:47 pm
Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now.
Why?  You're bored and want to see the country burn?

I want to see the future of the nation secured, like we did in the 1990s. We did both of those things (raise taxes and cut spending) while the economy thrived it was almost a miracle and it worked...until Dubya and the Republicans decided all those balanced budgets was a terrible idea.
I guess the key word is "right now".

Ah. Good point. Yes we need to be out of the crisis first and back to growth.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 02:59:37 pm
Also we need serious austerity measures in the US right now. We need to raise taxes and cut spending. Canada is in no such crisis regarding budget deficits, at least not near our scale.

Canadian budget deficit for 2020-2021 projected to be $343 billion dollars (before Covid it was supposed to be $34 billion).

US budget deficit projected at $3.3 trillion.  Adjucted for population size we're both in about equal trouble.
I imagine there's no country in the world that's in a place to "deal with" debt (I'm very dubious about the need to deal with it personally) given covid. We're up to a deficit of about £150billion from around £40 billion last year, and it's obviously going to keep increasing this year:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/10E4A/production/_114049196_optimised-borrowing-chart-nc.png-2020-aug-21-nc.png)
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 03, 2020, 03:47:26 pm
I recognize you feel uncomfortable with the comparison.  But tell me, what exactly differentiates O'Toole from Harris?

Okay, so I'm comparing Kamala Harris' positions from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Kamala_Harris

and Erin O'Toole's from https://erinotoole.ca/platform/

Harris supports greater gun control, O'Toole does not.

Harris would probably be very happy with the level of gun control we have now.  O'Toole wouldn't change the status quo.


Quote
O'Toole wants to reduce and simplify taxes.  Harris wants to cancel tax cuts for the wealthy and increase taxes on corporations.

Meaningless without an analysis of current rates in Canada vs the US. Canadian corporate rates are higher.  Does Harris want to raise them higher than Canada or the same as O'Toole has in mind? 


Quote
O'Toole wants to cut funding to public broadcasting with an eye to privatizing it - Harris has no similar policy and likely supports public broadcasting.

Again a meaningless comparison.  The US public broadcaster is not as well supported.  Would Harris be happy with the level of support the CBC gets as a percentage of the Federal budget? 

Quote
Harris has supported efforts to cut police funding, O'Toole does not.

Funny, I have read that the line that the Biden/Harris ticket wants to defund the police is a Fox lie - you can do better than that BB.

Quote
O'Toole opposes carbon taxes, Harris supports the Green New Deal - which includes carbon taxes.

You are right about that.  But I bet you the Conservatives come around to what was, after all, their idea originally. 

Quote
I could go on, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea...

Yep, I did get a good idea.  Not much difference.

Now let me add some things you left out.

Abortion rights - the same

Need to address racism - the same

Need to address climate change - the same

I could go on but I think you see where I am going  :P
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 03:48:40 pm
Back on topic, writer Andrew Sullivan was let go from New York Magazine last month.  The reason given?  That in 1994 at an entirely different magazine, Sullivan published an excerpt from The Bell Curve, a controversial book which argued for a connection between race and IQ.  Sullivan states that publishing is not endorsing and refuses to apologize or recant his decision to publish the excerpt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/business/media/im-still-reading-andrew-sullivan-but-i-cant-defend-him.html
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 03:52:31 pm
Funny, I have read that the line that the Biden/Harris ticket wants to defund the police is a Fox lie - you can do better than that BB.

YOu're the one who wanted to compare O'Toole with Harris, not Biden, so that's what I did.  I even gave you the link I used to avoid arguments like this.

From that link:

Quote
In June 2020, following a campaign by a coalition of community groups including Black Lives Matter, Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti announced Los Angeles Police Department budget cuts of $150 million.[23] Kamala Harris supported Garcetti's decision to cut the LAPD's budget by $150 million.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 03, 2020, 03:53:59 pm
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.

You can believe them, or you can believe CC, whose single metric for leftism is to "fully support single payer health care."  Apparently Germany's Die Linke ("The Left") is a far-right party.

I was pointing out to a fellow Canadian that the Democrats are to the right of the CPC. 

I am not sure why you think that has anything to do with a German political party.  But please go on to attribute things to me that I did not say.

When I am directly quoting you, you cannot whine that I am attributing things to you that you did not say!  :lol:

Correct, for do it and I will get off your back.

 :lol:  Look at the words within the " " (those are called quotation marks and mark the beginning and end of the direct quote from you that I used).

Are you sure you want to pretend to be a lawyer?  It sounds kinda silly when you cannot even recognize a quote when you see one.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:01:46 pm
Back on topic, writer Andrew Sullivan was let go from New York Magazine last month.  The reason given?  That in 1994 at an entirely different magazine, Sullivan published an excerpt from The Bell Curve, a controversial book which argued for a connection between race and IQ.  Sullivan states that publishing is not endorsing and refuses to apologize or recant his decision to publish the excerpt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/business/media/im-still-reading-andrew-sullivan-but-i-cant-defend-him.html
He wrote about leaving and has re-launched the Dish:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/andrew-sullivan-see-you-next-friday.html

I also think the key issue in part is that he's continued to write about possible links between race and IQ to the current day - basically always on a sort of "not endorsing this, but just asking" kind of approach. He's written loads of blog posts on this over the years I've read him. And, it's Andrew Sullivan so he occasionally gets a bee in his bonnet - so you would get a month with several posts about this "just asking questions" or defending writing about it. That's less of an issue when he has an editor. Honestly it reminds me of his Trig turther conspiracies about Sarah Palin. He published them very early, they were widely debunked and, to the best of my knowledge, still defends posting about that (again an editor helped). I certainly remember well into the 2010s when he was posting about there being valid suspicions about who was really pregnant with Trig.

It's not quite in the past. This is sort of touched on in the article:
Quote
So what does Mr. Sullivan believe about race? On his back porch looking over the bay, Mr. Sullivan said he was frustrated by the most extreme claims that biology has no connection to our lives. He believes, for instance, that Freudian theories that early childhood may push people toward homosexuality could have some merit, combined with genetics.

“Everything is environmental for the left except gays, where it’s totally genetic; and everything is genetic for the right, except for gays,” he said sarcastically.

I tried out my most charitable interpretation of his view on race and I.Q. (though I question the underpinnings of the whole intellectual project): that he is most frustrated by the notion that you can’t talk about the influence of biology and genetics on humanity. But that he’s not actually saying he thinks Black people as a group are less intelligent. He’d be equally open to the view, I suggested, that data exploring genetics and its connection to intelligence would find that Black people are on average smarter than other groups.

“It could be, although the evidence is not trending in that direction as far as I pay attention to it. But I don’t much,” he said. (He later told me he’s “open-minded” on the issue and thinks it’s “premature” to weigh the data.)

“I barely write about this,” he went on. “It’s not something I’m obsessed with.”

But he also can’t quite stop himself, even as I sat there wishing he would. “Let’s say Jews. I mean, just look at the Nobel Prize. I’m just saying — there’s something there, I think. And I’m not sure what it is, but I’m just not prepared to accept the whole thing is over.”
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 04:05:32 pm
A USC Professor is taking a "short term pause" because in giving examples of vocal pause words (like "um" he uses a Chinese word that sounds like the n-word.

https://reason.com/2020/09/03/usc-communications-professor-on-a-short-term-break-for-giving-chinese-word-neige-as-example/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: The Brain on September 03, 2020, 04:17:32 pm
A USC Professor is taking a "short term pause" because in giving examples of vocal pause words (like "um" he uses a Chinese word that sounds like the n-word.

https://reason.com/2020/09/03/usc-communications-professor-on-a-short-term-break-for-giving-chinese-word-neige-as-example/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Is this story real?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 03, 2020, 04:22:31 pm
Pretty sure everybody who does not support Donald Trump is a radical socialist, at least that is what the RNC taught me.

You can believe them, or you can believe CC, whose single metric for leftism is to "fully support single payer health care."  Apparently Germany's Die Linke ("The Left") is a far-right party.

I was pointing out to a fellow Canadian that the Democrats are to the right of the CPC. 

I am not sure why you think that has anything to do with a German political party.  But please go on to attribute things to me that I did not say.

When I am directly quoting you, you cannot whine that I am attributing things to you that you did not say!  :lol:

Correct, for do it and I will get off your back.

 :lol:  Look at the words within the " " (those are called quotation marks and mark the beginning and end of the direct quote from you that I used).

Are you sure you want to pretend to be a lawyer?  It sounds kinda silly when you cannot even recognize a quote when you see one.

A quote generally requires that the person not to cut off words so as to lose meaning.  You know that so I assume it is just bad faith.

You should see my pretend income...
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 04:25:26 pm
A USC Professor is taking a "short term pause" because in giving examples of vocal pause words (like "um" he uses a Chinese word that sounds like the n-word.

https://reason.com/2020/09/03/usc-communications-professor-on-a-short-term-break-for-giving-chinese-word-neige-as-example/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Is this story real?

Apparently.  I saw it on a more dubious site at first, waited until I saw it somewhere more credible (Reason) before posting it.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: DGuller on September 03, 2020, 04:31:03 pm
While googling this same story to see whether it's legit and faithfully summarized, I ran across Gordon Klein and UCLA story.   :bleeding: 
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 03, 2020, 05:00:26 pm
I recognize you feel uncomfortable with the comparison.  But tell me, what exactly differentiates O'Toole from Harris?

Okay, so I'm comparing Kamala Harris' positions from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Kamala_Harris

and Erin O'Toole's from https://erinotoole.ca/platform/

Harris supports greater gun control, O'Toole does not.

Harris would probably be very happy with the level of gun control we have now.  O'Toole wouldn't change the status quo.


Quote
O'Toole wants to reduce and simplify taxes.  Harris wants to cancel tax cuts for the wealthy and increase taxes on corporations.

Meaningless without an analysis of current rates in Canada vs the US. Canadian corporate rates are higher.  Does Harris want to raise them higher than Canada or the same as O'Toole has in mind? 


Quote
O'Toole wants to cut funding to public broadcasting with an eye to privatizing it - Harris has no similar policy and likely supports public broadcasting.

Again a meaningless comparison.  The US public broadcaster is not as well supported.  Would Harris be happy with the level of support the CBC gets as a percentage of the Federal budget? 

Quote
Harris has supported efforts to cut police funding, O'Toole does not.

Funny, I have read that the line that the Biden/Harris ticket wants to defund the police is a Fox lie - you can do better than that BB.

Quote
O'Toole opposes carbon taxes, Harris supports the Green New Deal - which includes carbon taxes.

You are right about that.  But I bet you the Conservatives come around to what was, after all, their idea originally. 

Quote
I could go on, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea...

Yep, I did get a good idea.  Not much difference.

Now let me add some things you left out.

Abortion rights - the same

Need to address racism - the same

Need to address climate change - the same

I could go on but I think you see where I am going  :P


if the comparisons are meaningless, why did you bring them in the first place?

Anyway, about corporate tax.  Yes, the Canadian rate is higher for large corporations.  But it's a tax rate on profit, and profit is determined by fiscal rules.  On this, the US fiscality is much more lenient than Canada's.  And also, when a corporation hides its profits through multiple shell companies or moves money from one place to another to reduce its tax bill, 40% of nothing is still less than 25% of something.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 03, 2020, 05:07:55 pm
While googling this same story to see whether it's legit and faithfully summarized, I ran across Gordon Klein and UCLA story.   :bleeding:

I googled that one.  I don't think the dude should be fired, but really why on earth would he be so snarky in his email?  He could have just said "no".
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 05:17:57 pm
While googling this same story to see whether it's legit and faithfully summarized, I ran across Gordon Klein and UCLA story.   :bleeding:

I googled that one.  I don't think the dude should be fired, but really why on earth would he be so snarky in his email?  He could have just said "no".
Yeah I think I agree. That entire tone doesn't strike me as appropriate from a teacher to students, or really in a workplace generally :mellow:
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Threviel on September 04, 2020, 05:35:27 am
I reacted to that in China, apparently chinese "Niga", pronounced like a bad word in english, means "That" or something equally used. They say it all the time.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 05, 2020, 08:07:27 am
While googling this same story to see whether it's legit and faithfully summarized, I ran across Gordon Klein and UCLA story.   :bleeding:

I googled that one.  I don't think the dude should be fired, but really why on earth would he be so snarky in his email?  He could have just said "no".
Yeah I think I agree. That entire tone doesn't strike me as appropriate from a teacher to students, or really in a workplace generally :mellow:

I think that the exchange is a pretty clearly demonstration that this guy is not the kind of guy UCLA wants as an adjunct professor.  These are students and this is a teachable moment.  Klein uses it, instead, as a ridicule moment.  Keeping him on after behavior like this just opens UCLA to further and worse incidents of student ridicule, with UCLA unable to defend themselves by claiming that they didn't know what kind of person Klein was.

Adjuncts have no tenure and are on a semester-by-semester contract, so it is easy to get rid of him, as well as wise.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 05, 2020, 05:04:05 pm
While googling this same story to see whether it's legit and faithfully summarized, I ran across Gordon Klein and UCLA story.   :bleeding:

I googled that one.  I don't think the dude should be fired, but really why on earth would he be so snarky in his email?  He could have just said "no".
Yeah I think I agree. That entire tone doesn't strike me as appropriate from a teacher to students, or really in a workplace generally :mellow:
it actually is similar to a tone used by many teachers for frivolous requests.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 05, 2020, 07:44:53 pm
it actually is similar to a tone used by many teachers for frivolous requests.

Not by any good teachers, or teachers for an institution like UCLA.  I know I'd have been fired for such an email, whether from my full-time job or my adjunct one.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Sheilbh on September 05, 2020, 07:46:36 pm
it actually is similar to a tone used by many teachers for frivolous requests.
I've never had an email like that from a teacher when I was a student and - admittedly I'm a bolshy type - but I'd kick off something in that tone at work (unless I'd done something that really fucked things up).
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 05, 2020, 11:36:51 pm
it actually is similar to a tone used by many teachers for frivolous requests.
I've never had an email like that from a teacher when I was a student and - admittedly I'm a bolshy type - but I'd kick off something in that tone at work (unless I'd done something that really fucked things up).
I've had to deal with an architect that was talking like that.  Well, actually, the teacher was nicer.

In school, I've had a couple of teachers who responded to student requests in such tones, sometimes calling them stupid for asking questions in the first place.  But that's finance, they just want you to drop out before you go to work and commit suicide. ;)
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: chipwich on September 06, 2020, 03:53:42 am
It was an appropriate response to someone who was asking for exams to be canceled for students of a specific race.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 06, 2020, 09:40:33 am
It was an appropriate response to someone who was asking for exams to be canceled for students of a specific race.

I doubt it, but that is immaterial since there was no such request.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 06, 2020, 09:50:34 am
It was an appropriate response to someone who was asking for exams to be canceled for students of a specific race.

It's not clear to me that they were asking for exams to be cancelled, or merely delayed.  In any event the professor is the adult here and should respond accordingly.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 06, 2020, 10:02:46 am
In any event the professor is the adult here

So college professors should treat their students like children?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 06, 2020, 10:29:37 am
In any event the professor is the adult here

So college professors should treat their students like children?

Google in loco parentis.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 06, 2020, 10:49:42 am
That is something that applies to minors.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Sheilbh on September 06, 2020, 10:54:19 am
It's not clear to me that they were asking for exams to be cancelled, or merely delayed.  In any event the professor is the adult here and should respond accordingly.
Agreed. Not sure if it's a firing offence but it's definitely inappropriate.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 06, 2020, 11:28:13 am
It's not clear to me that they were asking for exams to be cancelled, or merely delayed.  In any event the professor is the adult here and should respond accordingly.
Agreed. Not sure if it's a firing offence but it's definitely inappropriate.

It should not be a firing offence, but was still inappropriate.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Barrister on September 06, 2020, 11:28:35 am
That is something that applies to minors.

Not necessarily.  Google it.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Oexmelin on September 06, 2020, 11:44:03 am
In any event the professor is the adult here

So college professors should treat their students like children?

No, they just shouldn't be jerks.

There was a way to decline the demand without being a condescending prick. 
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Maladict on September 06, 2020, 11:47:16 am
All this talk of Harris and O'Toole made me rewatch their drinking stories.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Razgovory on September 06, 2020, 04:51:50 pm
In any event the professor is the adult here

So college professors should treat their students like children?

No, they just shouldn't be jerks.

There was a way to decline the demand without being a condescending prick.


Wait, really?  Cause I've had that problem my entire life.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on September 17, 2020, 07:50:07 am
It's not clear to me that they were asking for exams to be cancelled, or merely delayed.  In any event the professor is the adult here and should respond accordingly.
Agreed. Not sure if it's a firing offence but it's definitely inappropriate.

It should not be a firing offence, but was still inappropriate.
Termination of employment was the only recourse that would have satisfied anyone. 
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 17, 2020, 08:55:11 am
In any event the professor is the adult here

So college professors should treat their students like children?

Google in loco parentis.

Case law would be better than google in this circumstance.  Eddie is correct.  Universities do not owe a loco parentis obligation to students. You are getting that mixed up with high school.

Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 17, 2020, 08:56:22 am
It's not clear to me that they were asking for exams to be cancelled, or merely delayed.  In any event the professor is the adult here and should respond accordingly.
Agreed. Not sure if it's a firing offence but it's definitely inappropriate.

It should not be a firing offence, but was still inappropriate.

Why?  In your opinion what would be grounds for termination?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: viper37 on September 17, 2020, 11:12:03 am
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 17, 2020, 12:36:34 pm
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.

Not always, but often.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: 11B4V on September 17, 2020, 05:55:57 pm
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.

It's obvious they don't teach grammar or punctuation too.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 17, 2020, 09:31:51 pm
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.

It's obvious they don't teach grammar or punctuation too.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: crazy canuck on September 18, 2020, 09:08:08 am
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.

It's obvious they don't teach grammar or punctuation too.

 :lol:

When you can converse fluently in a second language you might be able to comment on the linguistic shortcomings of another person speaking a second language.  But after reaching that level of sophistication you will likely have realized it would not be appropriate to be so childish. 

In the meantime, keep up the stereotype of the Ugly American.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Razgovory on September 18, 2020, 09:27:04 am
Hey!  I may be ugly, and wait... what were talking about?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 18, 2020, 09:30:41 am
The stereotype that Americans are grammar Nazis?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: PDH on September 18, 2020, 09:53:05 am
There were some Grandma Nazis back in the day. 
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: The Brain on September 18, 2020, 10:00:07 am
Is the second language love?
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: grumbler on September 18, 2020, 10:05:12 am
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.

It's obvious they don't teach grammar or punctuation too.

 :lol:

When you can converse fluently in a second language you might be able to comment on the linguistic shortcomings of another person speaking a second language.  But after reaching that level of sophistication you will likely have realized it would not be appropriate to be so childish. 

In the meantime, keep up the stereotype of the Ugly American.

I know you have trouble with the English language, but that doesn't excuse the fact that you are being an asshole and trying to gig me for something I am not doing.  11B4V does not have English as a second language - it is his first language.  That's why he knew that he was making both a grammar and a punctuation error in his post, which made it deliberately ironic and funny, which induced me to reward his little joke with a :lol:

Maybe if you can take that stick out of your ass you will be better at reading comprehension.  It would certainly make you a less unpleasant poster.

You will note (if you actually looked for evidence) that I do not gig posters for second-language errors and, to the contrary, argue against other posters when they do that.  But seeing that evidence would also require reading comprehension.
Title: Re: Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom
Post by: 11B4V on September 18, 2020, 01:46:37 pm
Oex's response is much better.  University professors should not be condescending pricks. 
they should also have the capacity to transmit information to their students in a way they can comprehend at their level.  they should also have a genuine interest in teaching students at the level they are, not only doing research with a few assistant.

But that does not always happen either.

It's obvious they don't teach grammar or punctuation too.

 :lol:

When you can converse fluently in a second language you might be able to comment on the linguistic shortcomings of another person speaking a second language.  But after reaching that level of sophistication you will likely have realized it would not be appropriate to be so childish. 

In the meantime, keep up the stereotype of the Ugly American.

You're way to defensive on this. You must be French.