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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: FunkMonk on September 24, 2019, 02:10:43 pm

Title: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 24, 2019, 02:10:43 pm
It seems the time is near. The Ukraine scandal seems to be the tipping point. It looks like it is finally go-time.

How will this go? How will it end? What are the implications for elections next year? If it goes to the Senate, how many Senate Republicans will vote to convict?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on September 24, 2019, 02:11:53 pm
It seems the time is near. The Ukraine scandal seems to be the tipping point. It looks like it is finally go-time.

How will this go? How will it end? What are the implications for elections next year? If it goes to the Senate, how many Senate Republicans will vote to convict?

That's easy, zero.

It'll be Clinton Impeachment II: Trump Boogaloo.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 24, 2019, 02:13:31 pm
I have no idea what impact it will have. Are there people undecided about Trump out there? Is it possible at this point for anybody to change their mind?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 24, 2019, 02:14:01 pm
It'll be Clinton Impeachment II: Trump Boogaloo.

Clinton never had to run for office after his impeachment though so that will be different.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on September 24, 2019, 02:16:48 pm
It'll be Clinton Impeachment II: Trump Boogaloo.

Clinton never had to run for office after his impeachment though so that will be different.

Fair.  I would even put in a slim chance that the GOP might, during the course of an impeachment process, might decide to jettison Trump, and let Pence glide into office to Gerald Ford the whole thing.  Though while hoping he could manhandle any Democratic candidate.

I don't think the GOP has any particular loyalty to Trump...they just have a loyalty to having their political agenda run its course, and Trump isn't really needed for that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on September 24, 2019, 02:23:27 pm
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FondAdoredJackal-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on September 24, 2019, 02:24:00 pm
If the Democrats want to pull this thing off (and they should), they better go at it with an ironclad plan, a real clear messaging, and roles clearly assigned.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 24, 2019, 02:50:17 pm
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FondAdoredJackal-size_restricted.gif)

There does feel like that this advances a narrative that everybody is just out to get poor Donald. So it may be self-destructive.

If they do it I guess we will find out.

But, on the other hand, the Democrats were not give control of the House to just ignore what the President is doing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on September 24, 2019, 02:57:15 pm
I heard there was a motion to open up impeachment proceedings around the Ukraine stuff.

I was wondering if it makes sense to limit it to just that though....
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 03:19:37 pm
The Clinton impeachment almost seems quaint in light of recent developments.  The origin was a $200,000 Arkansas land deal that occurred a decade before Clinton was President, on which he lost money.  Compared with the open corruption and self-dealing that has occurred in the White House by a serving President, the Whitewater inquiry looks retrospectively like a lot of pettifoggery.  The impeachment itself was entirely unrelated and based on alleged false statement Clinton made in a deposition in a civil case arising out of his conduct while Governor of Arkansas.

Trump on the other hand is being accused of abusing his Presidential powers as President.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 24, 2019, 03:27:09 pm
I honestly don't see any other remedy.  I have been against impeachment, and this will probably play into Trump's hands, but democracy should go down fighting.  Someone needs to make a stand and say that soliciting foreign interference in our elections is wrong.  Encouraging other nations to press charges against your political opponents is wrong.  I wouldn't think that such a stand would have been necessary, but here we are on the brink of crisis.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 24, 2019, 03:27:20 pm
It'll be Clinton Impeachment II: Trump Boogaloo.

Clinton never had to run for office after his impeachment though so that will be different.

Fair.  I would even put in a slim chance that the GOP might, during the course of an impeachment process, might decide to jettison Trump, and let Pence glide into office to Gerald Ford the whole thing.  Though while hoping he could manhandle any Democratic candidate.

I don't think the GOP has any particular loyalty to Trump...they just have a loyalty to having their political agenda run its course, and Trump isn't really needed for that.

Trouble is, you know Trump isn't just going to go quietly into the night.  No long silence ala Nixon.  Even if impeached he'll keep tweeting, and lots of it would be directed towards senate republicans who voted against him.

That being said, GOP Senators have to quietly be quite tired of this guy.  If impeachment isn't just some theoretical possibility, but an actual vote, they might decide just to pull the plug on old Donald, in particular if they aren't up for re-election in 2020.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 24, 2019, 03:27:26 pm
Whoever this whistleblower is is gonna get crucified by right-wing media when they publicly testify.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on September 24, 2019, 03:31:16 pm
Whoever this whistleblower is is gonna get crucified by right-wing media when they publicly testify.

Every single person who says an unkind thing about Trump gets that treatment.  It won't be that new.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 24, 2019, 03:35:41 pm
Whoever this whistleblower is is gonna get crucified by right-wing media when they publicly testify.

They are already crucifying him/her.  I haven't looked up who it is, but the Russians know and they've reported it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 24, 2019, 03:52:50 pm
I imagine it'll fail and Trump will very much run on his acquittal by Senate Republicans. I doubt it'll even get 50+ votes in the Senate given their majority.

But I do think there's an institutional point, which goes against the politics for the Democrats, which is that if he doesn't get impeached for this conduct, what is the point of impeachment as a procedure? I mean if nothing happens it's just a constitutional bauble, surely and actually what is the limit on any President's conduct?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on September 24, 2019, 03:55:09 pm
Precisely. This is why the process will require extraordinary levels of Constitutional pedagogy that I am not sure anyone in the Democratic party - or in the current political class, has the capacity to conduct.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on September 24, 2019, 03:58:41 pm
Isn't this anti-democratic*? Sure Trump is corrupt and disregards the laws of the country, but that was obvious during the campaign and the people elected him anyway.

*At least the kind of democracy where the candidate that gets less votes wins.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on September 24, 2019, 04:04:18 pm
Precisely. This is why the process will require extraordinary levels of Constitutional pedagogy that I am not sure anyone in the Democratic party - or in the current political class, has the capacity to conduct.

I doubt any quality of pedagogy is capable of transforming Republican politicians into persons who put country above party.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on September 24, 2019, 04:05:31 pm
Isn't this anti-democratic*? Sure Trump is corrupt and disregards the laws of the country, but that was obvious during the campaign and the people elected him anyway.

*At least the kind of democracy where the candidate that gets less votes wins.

No, because democracy requires the rule of law to function.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 04:08:09 pm
Isn't this anti-democratic*?

Is it anti-democratic for a President to misuse executive power to harm a rival campaign for office?  Absolutely yes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 24, 2019, 04:12:41 pm
One thing absent from this discussion is what, if anything, Joe actually did vis a vis Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 24, 2019, 04:17:03 pm
One thing absent from this discussion is what, if anything, Joe actually did vis a vis Ukraine.
Here we go:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/23/fact-checking-president-trumps-wild-jabs-joe-biden/
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 24, 2019, 04:19:06 pm
Here we go:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/23/fact-checking-president-trumps-wild-jabs-joe-biden/

I think I'm paywalled.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 04:19:15 pm
What Biden did or didn't do is irrelevant to the question of the propriety of Trump's conduct.

However, what Joe actually did was carry out administration policy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 24, 2019, 04:19:30 pm
You asking me to steal, Yi?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 24, 2019, 04:20:15 pm
You asking me to steal, Yi?

I'm giving you information.  :homestar:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 24, 2019, 04:22:45 pm
One thing absent from this discussion is what, if anything, Joe actually did vis a vis Ukraine.

Well, his son Hunter it does seem a little fishy.  Why is some american lawyer appointed to the board of a Ukrainian natural gas company, and paid handsomely for his work?

However nothing really touches to Joe.  Joe Biden did ask for the head prosecutor in Ukraine to be fired, but that was part of overall US (and EU) policy, as it was felt this prosecutor was not going after corruption charges.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 24, 2019, 04:23:02 pm
:lol:

The core point:
Quote
Fact-checking President Trump’s wild jabs at Joe Biden
By Salvador Rizzo
May 23

We’ve published three fact checks about former vice president Joe Biden in the month since he joined the presidential race. Now, the shoe is on the other foot.

In recent days, President Trump has targeted Biden with accusations large and small, including a head-scratching claim that Biden, as a young child, “deserted” his native state of Pennsylvania and a more serious accusation that Biden, as vice president, improperly pressured the Ukrainian government to oust the country’s top prosecutor to benefit his son, Hunter Biden.

Here’s a look at four Trump claims about Biden and the Obama administration, all of them misleading.

The Facts
Trump bashed Biden in a May 19 interview on Fox News and in a May 20 campaign rally in swing-state Pennsylvania, where the Obama-Biden ticket won in 2008 and 2012 and where the Trump-Pence ticket won in 2016.
“Look at Joe Biden … he calls them [Ukrainian government leaders] and says, ‘Don’t you dare prosecute. If you don’t fire this prosecutor’ — the prosecutor was after his son — then he said, ‘If you fire the prosecutor, you’ll be okay. And if you don’t fire the prosecutor, we’re not giving you $2 billion in loan guarantees,’ or whatever he was supposed to give. Can you imagine if I did that?” (Fox News interview)

Trump and his allies — especially his lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani — have been suggesting for weeks that Biden improperly used his influence as vice president to get Ukraine to sack its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, in 2016.

The Ukrainian prosecutor general’s office had opened an investigation into Burisma Holdings, a natural gas company owned by an Ukrainian oligarch, Mykola Zlochevsky.

Hunter Biden, a lawyer and businessman, joined Burisma’s board in April 2014 and left last month. The New York Times reported May 1 that he was “paid as much as $50,000 per month in some months for his work for the company.”

Joe Biden traveled to Ukraine in March 2016 (it was not a phone call, as Trump claimed) and said the United States would withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees (not $2 billion, as Trump claimed) unless Shokin was removed (it was not a demand to stop the Burisma prosecution, as Trump claimed, and there’s no evidence Shokin “was after” Hunter Biden).

The vice president’s trip was part of a longer push by the United States, Western allies and nongovernmental organizations such as the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. The goal was to promote reform in Ukraine and remove a prosecutor who allegedly was turning a blind eye to corruption.

There’s a dispute going on between Bloomberg and the Times over some aspects of this complex story. (Here’s Washington Post media critic Erik Wemple on their back-and-forth.) One area of dispute is whether the Burisma probe was ongoing while Biden was pushing for Shokin’s ouster. “There was no pressure from anyone from the U.S. to close cases against Zlochevsky,” Vitaliy Kasko, a former official in the prosecutor general’s office, told Bloomberg News in an article published May 7. “It was shelved by Ukrainian prosecutors in 2014 and through 2015.”

For the purposes of fact checking Trump’s statement, though, we note that neither news organization is asserting that Biden pushed to oust Shokin to get his son out of a jam.

Bloomberg reported that “the U.S. plan to push for Shokin’s dismissal didn’t initially come from Biden, but rather filtered up from officials at the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, according to a person with direct knowledge of the situation” and that, in the same month Biden traveled to Ukraine, “hundreds of Ukrainians demonstrated outside President Petro Poroshenko’s office demanding Shokin’s resignation, and he was dismissed.”

The current prosecutor general of Ukraine, Yuriy Lutsenko, was quoted in a May 16 report, also by Bloomberg, saying “he had no evidence of wrongdoing by U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden or his son.”

“Hunter Biden did not violate any Ukrainian laws — at least as of now, we do not see any wrongdoing,” Lutsenko told Bloomberg. “A company can pay however much it wants to its board.”

“No evidence has surfaced that the former vice president intentionally tried to help his son by pressing for the prosecutor general’s dismissal,” the Times reported. “Some of his former associates, moreover, said Mr. Biden never did anything to deter other Obama administration officials who were pushing for the United States to support criminal investigations by Ukrainian and British authorities — and potentially to start its own investigation — into Burisma and its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, for possible money laundering and abuse of office.”

A lawyer for Hunter Biden told The Fact Checker that Hunter Biden never discussed Burisma or the investigations with Joe Biden. That’s consistent with previous statements from the Biden camp.

The Biden campaign sent us an editorial published by Ukraine’s Kyiv Post on May 17. It says: “The Biden narrative is too complicated to rehash here. But suffice it to say, it has been refuted by countless experts and anti-corruption activists. In 2016, Biden indeed pressured Ukraine to fire Viktor Shokin, its ineffective, weak prosecutor general. In doing so, he called for a decision supported both by Ukrainian reformers and Kyiv’s Western partners. No conspiracy here.”

However, there is a separate question of whether Biden created the appearance of a conflict of interest with his Shokin-must-go campaign.

“Joe Biden has publicly stated that he pressured Ukraine’s president to fire the state prosecutor, or possibly lose a billion dollar U.S. loan guarantee,” a Trump campaign spokesman said. “Biden’s pressure on Ukraine’s leadership came while his son, Hunter Biden, was on the board of Burisma.”

Referring to the Times article, the spokesman added: “There is reporting showing that an investigation by Ukraine’s prosecutor into Burisma was ongoing while Joe Biden was engaged in his pressure campaign.”
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 04:26:03 pm
Joe Biden did ask for the head prosecutor in Ukraine to be fired, but that was part of overall US (and EU) policy, as it was felt this prosecutor was not going after corruption charges.

One of the criticisms of Shokin (the Ukranian prosecutor) was that he was NOT going hard after the gas company that Hunter Biden was involved with. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 24, 2019, 04:28:16 pm
That's not a great set of facts for Joe.  At the very least he should have been aware of conflict of interest issues.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 04:35:58 pm
He was aware, the administration was aware, and the issue was raised publicly at the time in the press.  The White House did not believe there was an ethical conflict.  The administration's policy was to push for an investigation of the gas company, which they did.  Shokin was believed to be obstructing that investigation and others.  If Biden had lobbied to protect Shokin, it would look different but in fact he did the opposite.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 24, 2019, 04:41:31 pm
He was aware, the administration was aware, and the issue was raised publicly at the time in the press.  The White House did not believe there was an ethical conflict.  The administration's policy was to push for an investigation of the gas company, which they did.  Shokin was believed to be obstructing that investigation and others.  If Biden had lobbied to protect Shokin, it would look different but in fact he did the opposite.

OK.  This still leaves Joe with a son sitting on the board of a company being investigated for corruption, making squillions of dollars. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 24, 2019, 04:44:30 pm
Sure which would be disastrous for the Democrats if Joe was the candidate, probably.

But that's separate from a President allegedly using US aid as leverage to get a foreign power to investigate a political rival. They are two separate issues.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 24, 2019, 04:47:39 pm
He was aware, the administration was aware, and the issue was raised publicly at the time in the press.  The White House did not believe there was an ethical conflict.  The administration's policy was to push for an investigation of the gas company, which they did.  Shokin was believed to be obstructing that investigation and others.  If Biden had lobbied to protect Shokin, it would look different but in fact he did the opposite.

OK.  This still leaves Joe with a son sitting on the board of a company being investigated for corruption, making squillions of dollars.

Not quite squillions.  He apparently earned up to $50k per month - still rich.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: merithyn on September 24, 2019, 05:07:27 pm
Sure which would be disastrous for the Democrats if Joe was the candidate, probably.

But that's separate from a President allegedly using US aid as leverage to get a foreign power to investigate a political rival. They are two separate issues.

:contract:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 24, 2019, 05:07:45 pm
Not quite squillions.  He apparently earned up to $50k per month - still rich.

Add in a couple grand under the table and you get to squillions. :contract:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Savonarola on September 24, 2019, 05:47:25 pm
Let the games begin:

House launches formal impeachment inquiry into Trump (https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-ukraine-09-24-2019/index.html)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Savonarola on September 24, 2019, 06:02:00 pm
I have no idea what impact it will have. Are there people undecided about Trump out there? Is it possible at this point for anybody to change their mind?

The New York Times just ran a human interest article about this.  A lot of Americans aren't that engaged politically or hold positions that don't conform to either party's ideology.  The point the article was trying to make was that the country really isn't that polarized; it's just that the Twitter buffoons get the most attention.  The article went on to say that Trump is such a polarizing figure that something like even 2/3 of people who don't identify with either party hold a strong opinion on Trump.  So 1/3 of the population that don't identify with either party are at least somewhat open minded about Trump.  That's still several million people.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 24, 2019, 07:00:12 pm
Yeah but only 50-60% of the population even votes in Presidential elections. Maybe 1/3rd is so politically unengaged they have no strong feelings at all about the President but surely people that unengaged would not voting anyway?

Ah well. I am not really sure what to tell the Democrats at this point so while I am a bit fearful this will probably just open the door to something terrible in the future, if the President did something worthy of impeachment let's move forward. I mean that is what the Congress is Constitutionally supposed to do.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 07:07:35 pm
The lesson Trump drew from the non-impeachment over Russia is that he is free to dragoon foreign governments into targeting political opponents at home.  If the Democrats passed this time he would not respond by showing greater restraint.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2019, 08:16:07 pm
The point of impeachment isn't to actually remove Trump, it's very unlikely that we will uncover a smoking gun so heinous that 20 GOP senators will vote to convict.

However, there is great value in using the expanded investigatory powers of a formal impeachment inquiry to uncover the various crimes (currently known and unknown) to the nation at large. The more truth that comes out, the better Democrats will do in the election.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 24, 2019, 08:24:42 pm
What a big fucking disaster.  There is no good option.  If Trump isn't removed from office he will continue to do the same thing, and worse others will do it as well.  If he is removed, it will still damage the Republic.  I have no idea how Trump's fanbase will respond.  They're worse than Star Wars fans and Game of Thrones fans put together.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 24, 2019, 08:50:23 pm
And almost as bad as Star Wars/Game of Thrones haters.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Camerus on September 24, 2019, 09:58:42 pm
Given the number of media misfires in the past few years, I'm not sure it's worth rushing to judgment until we see a bit more evidence of what exactly was said. Not to say that Trump didn't do what he's accused of, only that in the age of Twitter, the media has been known to get ahead of itself. 

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's released transcript.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2019, 10:04:27 pm
Given the number of media misfires in the past few years, I'm not sure it's worth rushing to judgment until we see a bit more evidence of what exactly was said. Not to say that Trump didn't do what he's accused of, only that in the age of Twitter, the media has been known to get ahead of itself. 

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's released transcript.

Transcripts aren't made of the president's conversation with foreign leaders, so whatever is going to be released will be a non incriminating summary.

Also, the whistle blower complaint was over a pattern of behavior, not just one incident.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Camerus on September 24, 2019, 10:22:07 pm
Not sure where you're getting that about transcripts or what the fact that the phone call is part of an alleged larger complaint has to do with wanting to see evidence before making up one's mind.

Yes, a harmless transcript wouldn't exonerate the man - obviously we need to hear testimony from the whistleblower himself etc. Still, keeping a cautious approach to this is the best bet, especially in our current moment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2019, 10:37:38 pm
Not sure where you're getting that about transcripts or what the fact that the phone call is part of an alleged larger complaint has to do with wanting to see evidence before making up one's mind.

Yes, a harmless transcript wouldn't exonerate the man - obviously we need to hear testimony from the whistleblower himself etc. Still, keeping a cautious approach to this is the best bet, especially in our current moment.

Obama staffer said they didn't make transcripts of his conversations with foreign leaders, and it seems doubtful that Trump is keeping better records than Obama, when everything I've read about his administration points the other way.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on September 24, 2019, 11:20:24 pm
Ah well. I am not really sure what to tell the Democrats at this point so while I am a bit fearful this will probably just open the door to something terrible in the future, if the President did something worthy of impeachment let's move forward. I mean that is what the Congress is Constitutionally supposed to do.
looking at it from the outside, I get vibes of Southerners cheering and partying on learning they're going to war.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on September 24, 2019, 11:21:20 pm
The lesson Trump drew from the non-impeachment over Russia is that he is free to dragoon foreign governments into targeting political opponents at home.  If the Democrats passed this time he would not respond by showing greater restraint.
True.  But aren't they overplaying their hand if he really declassifies the conversation by tomorrow?
strike that.  just read Tim.  Never mind.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 25, 2019, 10:01:09 am
Transcript is out now. Seems pretty bad for Donald but I'm not a smart guy so who knows.

He offered the services of the Attorney General to help the Ukrainian President investigate Biden. That seems really, really shitty.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on September 25, 2019, 10:05:38 am
Link is here: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-ukraine-unredacted-call-transcript-read-ukraine-president-released-by-white-house-today-2019-09-25-live-updates/
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2019, 10:41:11 am
Is there anything other than impeachment that can prevent Trump from doing this again? 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 11:35:23 am
Starting to read it now - first thing I notice is that Jimmy is right, it's not a transcript at all.  It's a memo prepared from notes of attendees.  Significant difference.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 25, 2019, 11:46:45 am
Starting to read it now - first thing I notice is that Jimmy is right, it's not a transcript at all.  It's a memo prepared from notes of attendees.  Significant difference.

Yeah. Yesterday NPR had on one of these "note takers" from the Obama administration and they described the process by which there were two designated note takers who independently took notes and discussed later for a single draft, which was then reviewed by their higher up and eventually distributed to meeting attendees for their own review before being filed away.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 12:01:29 pm
What a horror show.  Putting the Biden thing aside if this memo is reflective of Trump's typical interaction with foreign leaders, American diplomacy is in a very bad place.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Larch on September 25, 2019, 12:10:48 pm
What a horror show.  Putting the Biden thing aside if this memo is reflective of Trump's typical interaction with foreign leaders, American diplomacy is in a very bad place.

Can you elaborate, please? Besides the "beautiful country you have here, it'd be a pity if something happened to it" tone, that is.  :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Camerus on September 25, 2019, 12:22:44 pm
The sycophantic flattery that the Ukrainian president heaps on Trump is disturbing on many levels.

Overall I'd say the text is pretty damning for Trump BUT it lacks the verbal "smoking gun" that would be necessary to convince many Trumpeters given that Trump was indirect in his threat.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 25, 2019, 12:23:26 pm
As an aside, this transcript is also kind of embarrassing for Zelensky - he comes across as trying very hard to toady up to Trump.  But I guess when you're in a low-level war with Russia and are desperate for friends, you do what you gotta do.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2019, 12:26:50 pm
There is no smoking gun that will cause Trump's supporters to abandon him.  Trump could be pointing a literal smoking gun at their own damned heads and they will follow him no matter what.  Suicide bombers aren't that fanatical.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 25, 2019, 12:27:52 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 25, 2019, 12:29:43 pm
Starting to read it now - first thing I notice is that Jimmy is right, it's not a transcript at all.  It's a memo prepared from notes of attendees.  Significant difference.

Yeah. Yesterday NPR had on one of these "note takers" from the Obama administration and they described the process by which there were two designated note takers who independently took notes and discussed later for a single draft, which was then reviewed by their higher up and eventually distributed to meeting attendees for their own review before being filed away.

Makes me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 25, 2019, 12:30:44 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?

AFAIK Impeachment will accomplish little legally, presuming the Senate doesn't convict.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 25, 2019, 12:52:14 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?

AFAIK Impeachment will accomplish little legally, presuming the Senate doesn't convict.

I used imprecise language: even if removed from office, there's nothing preventing him from running again in 2020 right?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 25, 2019, 12:53:30 pm
As an aside, this transcript is also kind of embarrassing for Zelensky - he comes across as trying very hard to toady up to Trump.  But I guess when you're in a low-level war with Russia and are desperate for friends, you do what you gotta do.
I imagine that even Putin would not look good in such a situation.  It was obvious since The Apprentice days that with Trump, you have to flatter him until you choke on his essence.  Forget subtlety or token disagreement to earn credibility, just go as hard as you can for as long as you can, and check your dignity at the door.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: merithyn on September 25, 2019, 01:00:09 pm
As an aside, this transcript is also kind of embarrassing for Zelensky - he comes across as trying very hard to toady up to Trump.  But I guess when you're in a low-level war with Russia and are desperate for friends, you do what you gotta do.

Does no one else see how much like Trump Zelensky sounds? As in... so very, very, VERY much like Trump? As in... could have been written by Trump?

Without the tape of the conversation, there's no way I'm going to believe that this is actually what Zelensky said. The cadence, the verbiage... all of it screams Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2019, 01:01:48 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?


Nobody knows.  That's never happened before.  If he is thrown out of office he can be prosecuted and that could stop him from running again.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 25, 2019, 01:02:24 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?

AFAIK Impeachment will accomplish little legally, presuming the Senate doesn't convict.

I used imprecise language: even if removed from office, there's nothing preventing him from running again in 2020 right?

Oh right.

There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents him, no. But there might be something else.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 01:08:50 pm
What a horror show.  Putting the Biden thing aside if this memo is reflective of Trump's typical interaction with foreign leaders, American diplomacy is in a very bad place.

Can you elaborate, please? Besides the "beautiful country you have here, it'd be a pity if something happened to it" tone, that is.  :P

Going in order:
1) He starts by insulting a close NATO ally that he has some personal problem with.
2) He then accuses the Ukraine of lack of reciprocity.  In the context of what follows, that is a "smoking gun" BTW.  The concept of a smoking gun is that there is no direct witness to the crime but we can infer what happened by seeing the body and a piece of evidence from which inferences can reasonably be drawn (a recently fired gun).  This memo is that.
3) He then rants about Mueller and some bizarre conspiracy theory about a shadowy Ukrainian national conspiring with the DNC to hide an email server.  Zelensky  doesn't appear to know what Trump is talking about.
4)  Trump then repeatedly refers to a notoriously corrupt prosecutor under the prior regime as a "really good prosecutor"
5) Trump then demands the Ukrainian government take instructions from his personal lawyer - a man who has no government position or authority - not even a WH advisory position
6) He then defames the last US ambassador to Ukraine.
7) He then makes the demand to get dirt on Biden.
8) After a statement by Zelesnky, he then says that Rudy will contact him about the Biden claims and the that the US Attorney General (!) will also be involved.
9) "I've got lots of friends who are ___"  :lol:

At no point in this call does Trump raise even a single matter of foreign policy concern for the United States even though he is talking to the leader of a large country that is currently Europe's most significant crisis zones.

Meanwhile Zelensky who has clearly been prepped makes a point of telling Trump that he stays at Trump-owned properties when visiting the US. 

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on September 25, 2019, 01:11:48 pm
As an aside, this transcript is also kind of embarrassing for Zelensky - he comes across as trying very hard to toady up to Trump.  But I guess when you're in a low-level war with Russia and are desperate for friends, you do what you gotta do.

Does no one else see how much like Trump Zelensky sounds? As in... so very, very, VERY much like Trump? As in... could have been written by Trump?

Without the tape of the conversation, there's no way I'm going to believe that this is actually what Zelensky said. The cadence, the verbiage... all of it screams Trump.

Though it is possible it is accurate, and it reflects a deliberate strategy by Zelensky ... who was an actor before he became a politician. He may well be deliberately parroting what he knows Trump wants him to say, even down to how he says it. His nation badly needs US help.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 25, 2019, 01:13:34 pm
As an aside, this transcript is also kind of embarrassing for Zelensky - he comes across as trying very hard to toady up to Trump.  But I guess when you're in a low-level war with Russia and are desperate for friends, you do what you gotta do.

Does no one else see how much like Trump Zelensky sounds? As in... so very, very, VERY much like Trump? As in... could have been written by Trump?

Without the tape of the conversation, there's no way I'm going to believe that this is actually what Zelensky said. The cadence, the verbiage... all of it screams Trump.
I’m not seeing it.  He doesn’t sound like Trump, and he does sound consistent with Zelenskiy (although there aren’t a lot of examples of what Zelenskiy the person sounds like in private).  We also don’t know whether translator was used; Zelenskiy does speak English, but he didn’t sound completely fluent the last time I heard him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 01:18:04 pm
Of course the toadying is deliberate strategy.  Everyone knows that flattery of Donald gets you everywhere and straight talk puts you on the enemies list.  A temporary loss of dignity is a very cheap cost to pay.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Larch on September 25, 2019, 01:19:32 pm
Apparently the White House sent an email with their talking points about the Ukraine situation to the House Democrats instead of to the Republicans, and afterwards asked them to recall it.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 01:27:03 pm
Quote
Zelensky: I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We. are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps. Specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

Trump: I would like you to do us a favor though . . .

Nothing to see here  . . .
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 01:27:33 pm
The relevant conversation is the one Giuliani had in Spain.  That's why Donald was so willing to release this transcript.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: merithyn on September 25, 2019, 01:34:09 pm
The relevant conversation is the one Giuliani had in Spain.  That's why Donald was so willing to release this transcript.

Expand on this, please?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 01:45:33 pm
Expand on this, please?

Rudy met in Spain with one of Zelensky's foreign policy guys.  *If* a quid pro quo was discussed it seems likely to have been done at this time.  I can't be arsed to go back and read the Economist article and give you the exact timeline, but the timing of the meeting strongly suggests it was related to the decision to "strategically review" (i.e. put on hold) the military aid.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on September 25, 2019, 02:08:09 pm
If Trump is convicted, what is the mechanism for physically taking over the control of government when he refuses to go?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on September 25, 2019, 02:10:28 pm
Of course the toadying is deliberate strategy.  Everyone knows that flattery of Donald gets you everywhere and straight talk puts you on the enemies list.  A temporary loss of dignity is a very cheap cost to pay.

Indeed. Every foreign leader has known this for years.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 02:10:48 pm
If Trump is convicted, what is the mechanism for physically taking over the control of government when he refuses to go?

Identical to removing a drunk passenger from an airplane.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 25, 2019, 02:13:27 pm
Transcript is out now. Seems pretty bad for Donald but I'm not a smart guy so who knows.

He offered the services of the Attorney General to help the Ukrainian President investigate Biden. That seems really, really shitty.
Especially given that it's not a transcript and there is no verbatim transcript. So was this released because they thought it was helpful? :huh:

Quote
The sycophantic flattery that the Ukrainian president heaps on Trump is disturbing on many levels.
I think that's World Leader 101 these days. They've all watched Kim Jong-Un.

I mean look at Scott Morrison or Modi's comments.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on September 25, 2019, 02:18:48 pm
If Trump is convicted, what is the mechanism for physically taking over the control of government when he refuses to go?

Identical to removing a drunk passenger from an airplane.

OK good luck.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 02:19:58 pm
The initial hold on the military aid was done 1 week before the call.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 02:21:02 pm
OK good luck.

I hope they film it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on September 25, 2019, 02:33:29 pm
Anyone think there is a connection between the resignation of Former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and this call/the whistleblower report?  The call was three days before he decided out of nowhere to resign.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: celedhring on September 25, 2019, 02:45:43 pm
Especially given that it's not a transcript and there is no verbatim transcript. So was this released because they thought it was helpful? :huh:

Yeah, if that's the part they were comfortable with sharing, then the other stuff must be pretty bad.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 02:46:56 pm
Anyone think there is a connection between the resignation of Former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and this call/the whistleblower report?  The call was three days before he decided out of nowhere to resign.

There are many reasons why Coates could have left but that temporal coincidence is interesting
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Larch on September 25, 2019, 02:47:35 pm
Anyone think there is a connection between the resignation of Former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and this call/the whistleblower report?  The call was three days before he decided out of nowhere to resign.

Maybe he received the whistleblower report and thought "Fuck it, I don't want to be in the middle of this shitstorm. Time to go".
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on September 25, 2019, 02:52:22 pm
Apparently the very first thing presented to the guy who replaced him, Dan Maguire, was that very Whistleblower Complaint.  "I left on August 15. ... The very next day that was presented to Joe (Maguire). I feel so bad for Joe. He is caught in a squeeze here and the lawyers are divided. So they are trying to work all that out. That's about all I can say about that."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/24/politics/dni-dan-coats-ukraine-trump/index.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 25, 2019, 02:55:54 pm
Anyone think there is a connection between the resignation of Former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and this call/the whistleblower report?  The call was three days before he decided out of nowhere to resign.

Maybe he received the whistleblower report and thought "Fuck it, I don't want to be in the middle of this shitstorm. Time to go".
Profiles in Courage: vol 72.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 03:06:08 pm
Timing would seem to point to Coat's deputy as a possible identity of the whistleblower.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2019, 03:59:19 pm

Especially given that it's not a transcript and there is no verbatim transcript. So was this released because they thought it was helpful? :huh:


Trump honestly doesn't know why people are upset over this.  Thieves think everyone steals.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 25, 2019, 04:17:41 pm
I think he is still deeply frustrated that his job isn't basically a nationwide version of Mayor of New York circa 1979
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Camerus on September 25, 2019, 04:52:02 pm

Quote
The sycophantic flattery that the Ukrainian president heaps on Trump is disturbing on many levels.
I think that's World Leader 101 these days. They've all watched Kim Jong-Un.

I mean look at Scott Morrison or Modi's comments.

That's an issue of almost equal seriousness to what Trump is being accused of doing here. In this conversation we have further proof that Trump is prone to making decisions on the use of American power not based on raison d'etat, America First, moral reasoning etc - but rather based on whichever leader is willing to debase himself and massage the man's ego.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2019, 05:45:22 pm
Expand on this, please?

Rudy met in Spain with one of Zelensky's foreign policy guys.  *If* a quid pro quo was discussed it seems likely to have been done at this time.  I can't be arsed to go back and read the Economist article and give you the exact timeline, but the timing of the meeting strongly suggests it was related to the decision to "strategically review" (i.e. put on hold) the military aid.


Funny how Trump sent his lawyer to engage in possible illegal conduct.  Again.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 06:01:47 pm
I think he is still deeply frustrated that his job isn't basically a nationwide version of Mayor of New York circa 1979

Koch would never pull this kind of bullshit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 06:08:01 pm
Funny how Trump sent his lawyer to engage in possible illegal conduct.  Again.

I'm thinking so they can claim lawyer-client.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 25, 2019, 06:13:44 pm
Funny how Trump sent his lawyer to engage in possible illegal conduct.  Again.

I'm thinking so they can claim lawyer-client.
My understanding is that it doesn't apply in cases where the lawyer is the client's accomplice, though I guess there could be a difference between theory and practice.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 06:24:20 pm
My understanding is that it doesn't apply in cases where the lawyer is the client's accomplice, though I guess there could be a difference between theory and practice.

OK, but you'd either need Rudy's testimony (or testimony from a Ukrainian party) to prove the conspiracy first, no?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 25, 2019, 06:26:31 pm
Would privilege cover that? In the UK communications with third parties aren't privileged unless they're for litigation.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 25, 2019, 06:27:44 pm
Would privilege cover that? In the UK communications with third parties aren't privileged unless they're for litigation.

dunno
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 25, 2019, 06:39:32 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?

I believe the senate can ban him from holding federal office again if they actually convicted (they won't)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on September 25, 2019, 09:04:55 pm
Anyone think there is a connection between the resignation of Former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and this call/the whistleblower report?  The call was three days before he decided out of nowhere to resign.

Maybe he received the whistleblower report and thought "Fuck it, I don't want to be in the middle of this shitstorm. Time to go".
Profiles in Courage: vol 72.

Speaking of:

« One Republican senator told me if it was a secret vote, 30 Republican senators would vote to impeach Trump."

– Mike Murphy, fmr. senior adviser to Mitt Romney and John McCain, MSNBC
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2019, 10:23:29 pm
In the future when a Democrat has the Presidency and is pushing foreign nations to prosecute Republicans who will they have to blame?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 25, 2019, 10:36:25 pm
In the future when a Democrat has the Presidency and is pushing foreign nations to prosecute Republicans who will they have to blame?

They'll be retired.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 11:59:17 pm
Would privilege cover that? In the UK communications with third parties aren't privileged unless they're for litigation.

Same basic idea in the US.  Communicating with a third party breaks privilege unless there is a common legal interest.  In NY the highest court ruled this is limited to a litigation context; some other states apply it more broadly to transactions (Delaware is the most notable).  Freelance foreign policy and political blackmail, however, is not likely to qualify.  Rudy also likely waived the privilege by disclosing key details in public interviews.  I can't speak to the PR aspects for certain but the lawyering here is awful.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 26, 2019, 12:03:17 am
Rudy...damn. Hard to believe this is the same dude sometimes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 26, 2019, 01:37:26 am
https://twitter.com/LarryNoble_DC/status/1176980507667652608
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 26, 2019, 06:58:23 am
Rudy...damn. Hard to believe this is the same dude sometimes.
Probably Trump's only real talent is hypnotizing people into utterly debasing themselves, with no reasonable expectation of reward.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on September 26, 2019, 08:08:33 am
Has the whistleblower letter been posted here?

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2019, 09:07:59 am
Yes - basically it's a roadmap and witness list for the investigating committees.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2019, 09:10:07 am
BTW the public release of this document despite heroic efforts of the President and his men to suppress it, is an indication the "system" is working as designed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 26, 2019, 09:13:28 am
In the future when a Democrat has the Presidency and is pushing foreign nations to prosecute Republicans who will they have to blame?

They'll be retired.

That's amazing, how did you come by this remarkable information?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on September 26, 2019, 09:38:52 am
BTW the public release of this document despite heroic efforts of the President and his men to suppress it, is an indication the "system" is working as designed.

The concern is whether this will have actual consequences. Trump's been investigated before. It provided the new cycle with fodder, but evidently did not rein him in.

The problem with this administration isn't that it has successfully avoided scrutiny for its misdeeds. On the contrary, sometimes it seems the entire government apparatus appears to be doing nothing but scrutinizing his misdeeds. The problem is that the misdeeds continue to happen despite scrutiny.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 26, 2019, 09:43:42 am
Rudy...damn. Hard to believe this is the same dude sometimes.
Probably Trump's only real talent is hypnotizing people into utterly debasing themselves, with no reasonable expectation of reward.

You lived in New York when he as mayor, was he always like this?  He sounds like he's suffering from mania.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2019, 09:47:58 am
The memo itself is one significant consequence.  Trump wanted to force the new President of Ukraine into opening a criminal investigation into Biden's son and tried to withhold $250 million in aid.  The aid was released and the investigation isn't happening.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 26, 2019, 09:48:26 am
That's amazing, how did you come by this remarkable information?




https://youtu.be/GibiNy4d4gc
 (https://youtu.be/GibiNy4d4gc)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2019, 09:55:19 am
You lived in New York when he as mayor, was he always like this?  He sounds like he's suffering from mania.

No he's lost his mind.  I know some older colleagues - leftie Democrat types - that worked with him during his US attorney days and had a great deal of respect for him as a lawyer and professional.  He went a little far out on civil liberties/national security issues after 9-11 but that is sort of understandable in context.  This really does look like Trump Derangement Syndrome - i.e. the process by which otherwise seemingly intelligent people have their judgment increasingly compromised in their desire to prove their loyalty to the king. 

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2019, 10:00:03 am
This is going to real messy for Rudy.  It seems he was using two very shady characters as "associates" who met with all sorts of Ukrainian officials saying god knows what.  These guys used an LLC to funnel tons of money to the Trump campaign (using/abusing Citizens United).  Privileged status of any or all of these conversations or reports to Rudy is dubious.  The whole issue of the ambassador's firing is going to come back up.  This looks like it could be a Watergate-esque carnival of "colorful" witnesses and plots within plots.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on September 26, 2019, 10:18:03 am
If Trump is convicted, what is the mechanism for physically taking over the control of government when he refuses to go?

Identical to removing a drunk passenger from an airplane.
Drunk passengers on airplanes do not have an army of loyal fanatics armed to the teeth, ready to defend them.

A better question: Is there a formal transition process, other than swearing in the VP as POTUS?

Much bette question: Where do Pence's loyalties lies?  Will he be leading a charge against the Democrats while plotting to have GOP Senators vote against Trump?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 26, 2019, 10:34:46 am
That's amazing, how did you come by this remarkable information?




https://youtu.be/GibiNy4d4gc
 (https://youtu.be/GibiNy4d4gc)



Yeah, so you made some shit up.  Please refrain from that in the future. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 26, 2019, 10:45:35 am
Much bette question: Where do Pence's loyalties lies?  Will he be leading a charge against the Democrats while plotting to have GOP Senators vote against Trump?

Pence's loyalties lie with Pence, of course.  Back in 2016 when the "grab them by the pussy" tape came out, Pence was angling around about dumping Trump and putting him at the head of the ticket.

Since then, however, he's done his best to prove his utmost loyalty to Trump.

I have no doubt that when it comes to it Pence would have no doubt sticking the dagger in Trump's back - but he'll only do it at the last possible moment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 26, 2019, 11:49:44 am
That's amazing, how did you come by this remarkable information?




https://youtu.be/GibiNy4d4gc
 (https://youtu.be/GibiNy4d4gc)



Yeah, so you made some shit up.  Please refrain from that in the future.


Eh? I'm just saying, politicians tend to focus on right now and let tomorrow take care of itself. Especially the climate change denying variety.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on September 26, 2019, 12:11:43 pm
Can anyone picture a scenario where, even though he won't get impeached, Trump decides NOT to run in 2020. I'm thinking these past two years have probably been the most stressful in his life, and what, really, is in it for him, from here on in? He was president, he achieved that goal. Why go though all this "persecution" for another four years?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: merithyn on September 26, 2019, 12:14:56 pm
Can anyone picture a scenario where, even though he won't get impeached, Trump decides NOT to run in 2020. I'm thinking these past two years have probably been the most stressful in his life, and what, really, is in it for him, from here on in? He was president, he achieved that goal. Why go though all this "persecution" for another four years?

Money, continued adulation by foreign Presidents and dignitaries, martyr syndrome....
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2019, 12:15:58 pm
Can anyone picture a scenario where, even though he won't get impeached, Trump decides NOT to run in 2020. I'm thinking these past two years have probably been the most stressful in his life, and what, really, is in it for him, from here on in? He was president, he achieved that goal. Why go though all this "persecution" for another four years?

I think he's having the time of his life.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on September 26, 2019, 12:21:25 pm
Can anyone picture a scenario where, even though he won't get impeached, Trump decides NOT to run in 2020. I'm thinking these past two years have probably been the most stressful in his life, and what, really, is in it for him, from here on in? He was president, he achieved that goal. Why go though all this "persecution" for another four years?

I suspect he is enjoying it, but I can see such a scenario.  Lets say he is trailing in the polls in a big way.  Rather than go down in defeat he decides to resign so he remains undefeated.

Problem with that theory is the moment he resigns he loses his immunity from prosecution.  Maybe Pence pardons him (although the Nixon pardon didn't do Ford any favours), but there's still state prosecutions out there.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 26, 2019, 12:21:58 pm
He was vain enough to run for President the first time, so he's vain enough to run again. But I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't. Hard to believe he's enjoying it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on September 26, 2019, 12:31:57 pm
The best way for Trump to avoid prosecution at any future point is to stay in office as long as possible.  He's not walking away without a handpicked successor in place.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 26, 2019, 01:02:10 pm
He'll stay as long as possible in the White House. The Trump Train has to keep steaming ahead otherwise it explodes. It's like that Keanu Reeves movie.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 26, 2019, 01:03:17 pm
He'll stay as long as possible in the White House. The Trump Train has to keep steaming ahead otherwise it explodes. It's like that Keanu Reeves movie.

"The bus that couldn't slow down"?

But yes. Trump would have to die in office before he wouldn't run again.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2019, 01:08:19 pm
"The bus that couldn't slow down"?

You're thinking of the Turkish release.  In America it was called Speed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on September 26, 2019, 01:10:42 pm
"The bus that couldn't slow down"?

You're thinking of the Turkish release.  In America it was called Speed.

It was a Simpsons reference.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 26, 2019, 01:12:48 pm
Yeah that was probably obscure enough that I should have put the clip in there.

But being Languish Syt still got it  :lol:

Edit: Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIrIvKKT_nk
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2019, 01:13:02 pm
It was a Simpsons reference.

asoka
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2019, 01:23:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BgNOQJQj28

The brand new DNI gives every indication of being a grown up.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on September 26, 2019, 02:00:09 pm
MSNBC during Trump news conference: "Yeah, let's cut away, because he's lying."
https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/watch/watch-nicolle-wallace-cuts-away-from-trump-we-hate-to-do-this-but-trump-isn-t-telling-the-truth-69905989594?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on September 26, 2019, 02:09:35 pm
So does that mean MSNBC will never cover Trump speaking again? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 26, 2019, 02:44:45 pm
Giuliani in a phone interview today with some journo

Quote
“It is impossible that the whistle-blower is a hero and I’m not. And I will be the hero! These morons—when this is over, I will be the hero,” he told me.

 :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on September 26, 2019, 03:05:36 pm
Goddamn. He has really lost it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 26, 2019, 03:08:56 pm
He is just imitating the speech and style of his master, like any good courtier.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on September 26, 2019, 03:17:53 pm
He is just imitating the speech and style of his master, like any good courtier.

Quote
Our Courtier....will not be a bearer of evil tidings; he will not be thoughtless in sometimes saying things that offend instead of pleasing as he intends. He will not be obstinate and disputatious, as some are who seem to delight in nothing but to be troublesome, and disagreeable like flies, and who make a point of spitefully contradicting everyone.... Let him above all take care not to weary his lord, and let him wait for favors to be offered him rather than angle for them so openly as many do, who are so greedy that it seems as if they must die if they do not get what they seek....
The Courtier by Baldassare Castiglione

Giuliani would never make it as the courtier of a true lord.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on September 26, 2019, 03:25:57 pm
Can anyone picture a scenario where, even though he won't get impeached, Trump decides NOT to run in 2020. I'm thinking these past two years have probably been the most stressful in his life, and what, really, is in it for him, from here on in? He was president, he achieved that goal. Why go though all this "persecution" for another four years?

I suspect he is enjoying it, but I can see such a scenario.  Lets say he is trailing in the polls in a big way.  Rather than go down in defeat he decides to resign so he remains undefeated.

Problem with that theory is the moment he resigns he loses his immunity from prosecution.  Maybe Pence pardons him (although the Nixon pardon didn't do Ford any favours), but there's still state prosecutions out there.
I think he is hating it. I don't think he ever wanted to win.

But I do think he may think having immunity and the pardon power (for his family) is very helpful.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 26, 2019, 03:56:11 pm
The funny thing is Donald triggered an impeachment inquiry by trying to screw over someone who is looking increasingly unlikely (if the trend toward Liz continues) to be the actual nominee he faces next year.

This whole thing is like an episode of Veep.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on September 26, 2019, 04:56:13 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/sep/26/donald-trump-ukraine-live-news-latest-us-politics

Quote
Audio was released of Trump expressing a wish to know the identity of the whistleblower’s sources and alluding to retaliation against those officials. Trump said: “I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy. You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart?”
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 26, 2019, 05:27:35 pm
The complaint says over half a dozen talked to the whistleblower.  I assume one was Dan Coats who already resigned.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on September 26, 2019, 07:08:25 pm
Can anyone picture a scenario where, even though he won't get impeached, Trump decides NOT to run in 2020. I'm thinking these past two years have probably been the most stressful in his life, and what, really, is in it for him, from here on in? He was president, he achieved that goal. Why go though all this "persecution" for another four years?

He needs to stay in power to avoid the criminal prosecutions that await suspect #1
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 26, 2019, 07:33:22 pm
Has the whistleblower letter been posted here?

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf

Only 9 pages, ya'll should read it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2019, 05:27:11 pm
The latest talking point from the Idiot Party is that it's not a real whistleblower complaint it's "hearsay."  Of course a whistleblower complaint can be based on information learned from others.  "Hearsay" is a set of rules governing how and in what form evidence is admitted into court, it's not an insult or attack on credibility.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Larch on September 27, 2019, 05:42:17 pm
Apparently Trump is asking the NRA for money for his legal defence in exchange of blocking gun control legistlation.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: PDH on September 27, 2019, 05:52:50 pm
Apparently Trump is asking the NRA for money for his legal defence in exchange of blocking gun control legistlation.
The NRA won't do that unless the Russians let them.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 27, 2019, 05:56:53 pm
The latest talking point from the Idiot Party is that it's not a real whistleblower complaint it's "hearsay."  Of course a whistleblower complaint can be based on information learned from others.  "Hearsay" is a set of rules governing how and in what form evidence is admitted into court, it's not an insult or attack on credibility.


I saw plenty of conservatives arguing "Hearsay" during the Greitens thing.  What became immediately apparent that they didn't know what hearsay was.  They seems to think that it was "He said, she said".  I'm not a lawyer, but I still understand what hearsay is and where it is allowed and where it is not. Or at least the basics of that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on September 27, 2019, 09:07:44 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-told-russian-officials-in-2017-he-wasnt-concerned-about-moscows-interference-in-us-election/2019/09/27/b20a8bc8-e159-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 27, 2019, 10:26:32 pm
I wonder if there is going to be a tipping point inside GOP.  The fact that they protect Trump out of cowardice rather than genuine derangement actually means that this protection can collapse in an instant.  All it would take is an appearance of weakness by Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 27, 2019, 11:01:43 pm
Apparently Trump is asking the NRA for money for his legal defence in exchange of blocking gun control legistlation.
The NRA won't do that unless the Russians let them.
Yup.
Even the Senate just said the NRA is riddled with Russian assets.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 27, 2019, 11:47:50 pm
Why would the Russians support the NRA? Haven't they seen Red Dawn?   :huh:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2019, 04:21:17 am
Tons of news came out in the last 24 hours.

1. Trump's administration hid conversations with Putin and MBS in that secret server.

2. Trump told the Russians in 2017 that he wasn't concerned with their election meddling.

3. AG Barr has been in Italy for the last two days, so the DOJ has been flailing around.

4. Pompeo has been subpoenaed.

5. It's been reported that Mitch encouraged Trump to release the transcript. Doubtless he expected Trump to edit out the crimes. Trump might blame him for his troubles though.

And so much else. Every day this week has felt like an avalanche 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 28, 2019, 04:31:46 am
How much coverage does Korean news give?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2019, 04:58:02 am
I get CNN international and CNBC.

But I haven't really watched it or the Korean news channels for the past few days. Been on the net 24/7
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on September 28, 2019, 06:45:49 am
What are the odds that the Republicans decide to pull the ripcord on Trump at some point and invoke the 25th Amendment, avoiding the ugliness and potential splash damage of Impeachment/Removal?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2019, 07:26:27 am
What are the odds that the Republicans decide to pull the ripcord on Trump at some point and invoke the 25th Amendment, avoiding the ugliness and potential splash damage of Impeachment/Removal?

House and the Senate have to vote on that
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on September 28, 2019, 07:54:33 am
What are the odds that the Republicans decide to pull the ripcord on Trump at some point and invoke the 25th Amendment, avoiding the ugliness and potential splash damage of Impeachment/Removal?

House and the Senate have to vote on that

That's my point.  If they wait too long potentially more ugliness could come out that would reflect even worse on the rest of the Republicans.  If the Repubs offer the sure thing of invoking the 25th before it gets to that point, would Democrats take it?

I don't think Pelosi or the Democrats want impeachment to be quick.  They want it to drag into the election season.  I think they would be fine to let it run through the presidential.  Why give the Senate the chance to vote not to remove with the associated claims of exoneration?  The 25th gives the Republicans the out of claiming he's no longer in his right mind, as if that was a recent change.

As an aside, I really do wonder what would happen if Trump had to deal with an 8 hour grilling like Clinton did over Benghazi.  I have no idea how he would handle it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 28, 2019, 08:03:27 am
I don't know that Democrats have a choice. If they blocked a removal on 25th amendment grounds, people would lose their minds.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on September 28, 2019, 08:11:46 am
What are the odds that the Republicans decide to pull the ripcord on Trump at some point and invoke the 25th Amendment, avoiding the ugliness and potential splash damage of Impeachment/Removal?

House and the Senate have to vote on that

That's my point.  If they wait too long potentially more ugliness could come out that would reflect even worse on the rest of the Republicans.  If the Repubs offer the sure thing of invoking the 25th before it gets to that point, would Democrats take it?

I don't think Pelosi or the Democrats want impeachment to be quick.  They want it to drag into the election season.  I think they would be fine to let it run through the presidential.  Why give the Senate the chance to vote not to remove with the associated claims of exoneration?  The 25th gives the Republicans the out of claiming he's no longer in his right mind, as if that was a recent change.

As an aside, I really do wonder what would happen if Trump had to deal with an 8 hour grilling like Clinton did over Benghazi.  I have no idea how he would handle it.

I'm not sure which would be "worse".  A House impeachment and a dubious Senate trial, or trying to invoke the 25th, then Trump filing a lawsuit to overturn it, and all of the judicial shenanigans (likely to the Supreme Court) that would follow.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on September 28, 2019, 08:19:01 am
There are no happy ways out of this.  Only ugly, uglier and oh well we had a good run.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 28, 2019, 09:30:50 am
One pragmatic way out of this situation would be to strike a deal , where Republicans agree to remove Trump and maybe his most toxis cronies, in return for Democrats not exposing the rest of GOP as a Quisling party.  It would suck to let the enablers escape responsibility, but sometimes you have to strike such deals.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on September 28, 2019, 09:31:38 am
I get CNN international and CNBC.

But I haven't really watched it or the Korean news channels for the past few days. Been on the net 24/7

Yikes.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on September 28, 2019, 10:56:04 am
One pragmatic way out of this situation would be to strike a deal , where Republicans agree to remove Trump and maybe his most toxis cronies, in return for Democrats not exposing the rest of GOP as a Quisling party.  It would suck to let the enablers escape responsibility, but sometimes you have to strike such deals.


If we could get some kind of guarantee that Trump won't try to use abuse his office to get his political enemies thrown in jail, I would be satisfied.  I don't know of anything that could do that though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on September 28, 2019, 11:56:36 am
One pragmatic way out of this situation would be to strike a deal , where Republicans agree to remove Trump and maybe his most toxis cronies, in return for Democrats not exposing the rest of GOP as a Quisling party.  It would suck to let the enablers escape responsibility, but sometimes you have to strike such deals.

The Republicans have exposed themselves completely for years, so it should be easy for the Democrats to hold up their part of the bargain.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on September 28, 2019, 05:14:29 pm
There are no happy ways out of this.  Only ugly, uglier and oh well we had a good run.

I don't know. I see the Dems trying to impeach. The whole thing gets blocked by the senate. Trump plays his Victim Vindicated card. Wins next election.
And here's the thing, if the Dems play their Impeach card now and fail, it's unlikely they'll try it again. This may be there only chance.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: ulmont on September 28, 2019, 06:04:45 pm
The latest talking point from the Idiot Party is that it's not a real whistleblower complaint it's "hearsay."  Of course a whistleblower complaint can be based on information learned from others.  "Hearsay" is a set of rules governing how and in what form evidence is admitted into court, it's not an insult or attack on credibility.

1. "Hearsay" is completely an attack on credibility, or you wouldn't have FRE 807.
2. If anyone thinks a statement is inadmissible hearsay, they just haven't looked hard enough for an exception yet.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2019, 07:03:35 pm
The hearsay defense is so weak. The whistleblower left a trail of names and documents that have first hand accounts. Once congress talks to them and gets those documents that defense is blown up.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2019, 07:10:29 pm
Seems Mueller never knew about Trump telling the Russians he didn't care about their election meddling

https://mobile.twitter.com/neal_katyal/status/1177922126243721216
Quote
Shortly after the story broke, I received a message from a person directly involved with the FBI’s decision to open a counterintelligence and obstruction investigation of President Trump in the immediate aftermath of the firing of FBI Director James Comey. To say this person, who had clearly learned about the matter for the first time from the Post, was angered by the story would be to understate the matter.

The message read in relevant part: “None of us had any idea. Multiple people had opportunity and patriotic reason to tell us. Instead, silence.”
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 28, 2019, 07:14:17 pm
Not a good week for The Donald.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on September 28, 2019, 07:21:58 pm
Lock him up.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on September 28, 2019, 08:48:36 pm
Not a good week for The Donald.
Not a good week for Mueller either.  Just how diligent was he in hindsight?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 30, 2019, 01:42:18 am
1. "Hearsay" is completely an attack on credibility, or you wouldn't have FRE 807.

It's not an attack on credibility, it's a mixed bag of a rather confused set of judgments about the mental apparatus of jurors mediated through centuries of common law.

FRE 807 is notorious for its near irrelevance and the rarity of its invocation - it's pending for amendment but no one seems to care.

the implication of FRE 807 either originally or as per the proposed amendment is not that hearsay lacks credibility but arguably opposite - that hearsay can be so credible and significant that it should come in even in the absence of an exception.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on September 30, 2019, 08:56:38 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFty96OXUAErGwF?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 30, 2019, 08:59:56 am
Just a few years ago such a statement by the President would be a shock.

But it is Donald Trump. He is full of shit and everybody knows it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on September 30, 2019, 10:38:47 am
Is the US at war?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on September 30, 2019, 10:41:30 am
Is the US at war?

Probably. We are usually at war with somebody.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on September 30, 2019, 11:09:00 am
Well apparently if impeachment continues we'll have a civil war anyway.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Grey Fox on September 30, 2019, 05:13:51 pm
On which side will the nuclear weapons will be?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2019, 12:19:04 pm
GOP now in full-bore throes of TDS:
Quote
Liz [email protected]_Cheney.⁦@SpeakerPelosi⁩ said on 60 Minutes last night she knew the details of the classified Ukraine call before White House released transcript. This is starting to seem like a political set up. So, Madame Speaker, “what did you know and when did you know it?”

Russian trollbait tinfoil wingbattery is now firmly established on Capitol Hill.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 01, 2019, 03:01:15 pm
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/463827-pompeo-balks-at-dems-subpoena-i-will-not-tolerate-house-efforts-to

Quote
Pompeo rejects Dem demands for officials' testimony

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Tuesday that five current and former State Department officials would not show up for depositions scheduled by House Democrats in connection with their impeachment inquiry.

Pompeo asserted that the committee’s demand for testimony from five current and former State Department officials beginning this week raised “significant legal and procedural concerns” and questioned the committee’s authority to compel an appearance by officials for a deposition through the letters sent last week, according to a letter that the secretary of State released on his Twitter feed.

“Based on the profound legal and procedural deficiencies … the Committee’s requested dates for depositions are not feasible,” Pompeo wrote, adding that the State Department “will be in further contact with the committee in the near future as we obtain further clarity on these matters.”

The secretary of State also claimed that there is “no legal basis” for the committee’s threat that the failure of the officials to meet their timeline for documents and testimony would constitute obstruction of the impeachment inquiry. And he raised concerns that House Democrats are seeking to “intimidate” State Department officials with a slew of requests on Ukraine and President Trump's interactions with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

“I’m concerned with aspects of your request that can be understood only as an attempt to intimidate, bully and treat improperly the distinguished professionals of the Department of State, including several career Foreign Service Officers,” Pompeo wrote in a letter to Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.) on Tuesday.

“Let me be clear: I will not tolerate such tactics, and I will use all means at my disposal to prevent and expose any attempts to intimidate the dedicated professionals whom I am proud to lead and serve alongside at the Department of State,” Pompeo wrote.

He said the committee had not sent subpoenas for their appearances or noticed the deposition to the department in accordance with House rules. Pompeo also said that the proposed dates offered by the committee for depositions “do not provide adequate time for the Department and its employees to appropriately prepare.”

Engel, as well as House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) and Oversight Committee Chairman Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), said in a letter to Pompeo last week that the depositions would be conducted jointly by their three committees.

The depositions requested by the committees last week had been scheduled for Oct. 2, 3, 7, 8 and 10.

In a joint statement issued later Tuesday, the three chairmen raised the possibility that Pompeo was engaging in witness intimidation, citing reports from the day prior that the top diplomat participated in the July 25 call between Trump and Zelensky at the center of an intelligence community whistleblower complaint.

The Democrats said that would make him a “fact witness” in the impeachment inquiry and that his actions could constitute obstruction of Congress.

“Any effort to intimidate witnesses or prevent them from talking with Congress — including State Department employees — is illegal and will constitute evidence of obstruction of the impeachment inquiry. In response, Congress may infer from this obstruction that any withheld documents and testimony would reveal information that corroborates the whistleblower complaint,” Engel, Schiff and Cummings said in a joint statement.

“The Committees are operating pursuant to our long-established authorities as well as the impeachment inquiry,” they continued. “We’re committed to protecting witnesses from harassment and intimidation, and we expect their full compliance and that of the Department of State.”

In addition to requesting depositions with the five current and former State Department officials, the House committee chairmen had also subpoenaed Pompeo for documents related to Trump pressuring the Ukrainian government to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, a potential 2020 rival, and his son, Hunter.

Pompeo also said the State Department "acknowledges receipt" of last week's subpoena and "intends to respond" by the noticed date of Oct. 4.

Pompeo also accused Engel of trying to prevent State Department counsel from participating in the depositions, something he said amounted to an effort to “circumvent” the constitutional interests of the executive branch. Pompeo said he would refuse to allow the officials to appear for the depositions in the absence of department counsel.

“This amounts to an attempt to circumvent the Executive Branch’s unquestionably legitimate constitutional interest in protecting potentially privileged information related to the conduct of diplomatic relations,” Pompeo wrote.

“Therefore, the five officials subject to your letter may not attend any interview or deposition without counsel from the Executive Branch present to ensure that the Executive Branch’s constitutional authority to control the disclosure of confidential information, including deliberative matters and diplomatic communications, is not impaired,” he continued.

Pompeo also said the committee’s requests sent to the same officials for documents appeared to “duplicate” a previous request sent to the State Department and argued that the documents are the property of the State Department. He asserted that the committee in doing so was engaging in an “act of intimidation” and inviting the officials to violate federal records laws.

He also accused committee staff of sending “intimidating communications” to career employees at the State Department who had asked that the requests be sent to the Bureau of Legislative Affairs as is normally done.

The first depositions had been scheduled for Wednesday with Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, and on Thursday with Kurt Volker, who was Trump's special envoy for Ukraine until his resignation on Friday.

The intelligence community whistleblower at the center of the impeachment inquiry alleged in their complaint that Volker visited Kiev with U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland and met with Ukrainian officials to discuss how to "navigate" the "demands" Trump had made of Zelensky in a phone call the day before.

The House committees are also seeking depositions with Sondland, State Department Deputy Assistant Secretary George Kent and State Department counselor T. Ulrich Brechbuhl. Kent is the only one of the five officials not to be mentioned in the whistleblower complaint.

Yovanovitch served as the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine until May when she was recalled from her post.

Trump said in his July 25 call with Zelensky that Yovanovitch was “bad news,” according to a declassified rough transcript of the call released by the White House.

“The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that,” Trump said.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 01, 2019, 03:41:48 pm
Wow, I didn't know the Executive could just ignore Congress.  Dunno why the Nixon administration or either Clinton ever cooperated with them.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 01, 2019, 03:49:56 pm
Wow, I didn't know the Executive could just ignore Congress.  Dunno why the Nixon administration or either Clinton ever cooperated with them.

It's my impression (and US law-talkers can correct me) is that this is one of those areas where both sides have been afraid of getting a definitive, adverse ruling on the limits of congress's powers to subpoena witnesses and evidence from the executive, so they always wind up with some kind of compromise in the end.

Trump of course doesn't seem like the kind of would make that kind of careful analysis about the risks of pushing any issue all the way to the USSC...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on October 01, 2019, 03:49:58 pm
Can anyone imagine the frothing rage of the GOP if Obama had done something similar?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 01, 2019, 03:54:28 pm
It's my impression (and US law-talkers can correct me) is that this is one of those areas where both sides have been afraid of getting a definitive, adverse ruling on the limits of congress's powers to subpoena witnesses and evidence from the executive, so they always wind up with some kind of compromise in the end.

Trump of course doesn't seem like the kind of would make that kind of careful analysis about the risks of pushing any issue all the way to the USSC...

It's not like this is the first time this administration hasn't cooperated with requests from the House.  So far they've gotten away with it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2019, 03:55:23 pm
Everyone needs to chill out a little. 

Trump did some really bad stuff, we are firmly back in the Nixonland of impeachment, constitutional crises, an out-of-control executive "led" by a increasingly paranoiac president and even more shrill fellow-travelers.  But stuff has to be allowed to take its course.  The House noticed some state dept guys for deposition, which is normal and appropriate.  Pompeo's response is 75% a legit legal letter which takes some plausibly justifiable positions like the witnesses should have some time to consult counsel.  It was wrong of him, however, to accuse the House of intimidating witnesses (a very serious charge proffered with zero evidence); it's also wrong for the House to accuse witnesses in advance obstructing justice because they ask for so more time to consult counsel before attending a voluntary deposition. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2019, 03:59:33 pm
Wow, I didn't know the Executive could just ignore Congress.  Dunno why the Nixon administration or either Clinton ever cooperated with them.

It's my impression (and US law-talkers can correct me) is that this is one of those areas where both sides have been afraid of getting a definitive, adverse ruling on the limits of congress's powers to subpoena witnesses and evidence from the executive, so they always wind up with some kind of compromise in the end.

I don't think that's the case here.  The power of Congress to subpoena State Dept officials has been well established ever since it was abused by Senator McCarthy.  What is going in here is the House is trying to move fast and the Executive is trying to slow roll.  Subpoenas take time to issue and enforce, so Engel sent out deposition notices that don't have the same legal compulsion behind them.  State doesn't want to be seen to be obstructive and inviting a formal subpoena, by the same token they want to buy time, so they don't reject the notices out of hand but raise some superficially plausible objections about timing.  And the game continues...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 01, 2019, 04:01:36 pm
It's my impression (and US law-talkers can correct me) is that this is one of those areas where both sides have been afraid of getting a definitive, adverse ruling on the limits of congress's powers to subpoena witnesses and evidence from the executive, so they always wind up with some kind of compromise in the end.

Trump of course doesn't seem like the kind of would make that kind of careful analysis about the risks of pushing any issue all the way to the USSC...

It's not like this is the first time this administration hasn't cooperated with requests from the House.  So far they've gotten away with it.

Which matches what I've said.  Both when Obama was President, and Bush, and Clinton, going on even further back, both Congress and the Executive would generally avoid pushing matters to the USSC for the risk of getting a ruling they disagreed with.  Imagine if the USSC ruled that indeed Congress had sweeping, almost unlimited ability to subpoena documents.  Or the contrary - if the USSC ruled that executive privilege was incredibly broad.

There is the decision in US v Nixon, but even there my read is the court gave a pretty narrow decision on the facts of the case in order to ensure a unanimous decision.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on October 01, 2019, 04:11:17 pm
It should also be said that if they desire it, the Executive branch could ignore the USSC just as easily as it does Congress.  It's been done before.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2019, 04:15:01 pm
Nobody is ignoring anything … yet.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on October 01, 2019, 04:18:14 pm
No, but it is an interesting (and perhaps troubling) aspect of our system of separation of powers.  What should/would agencies due in the case of conflicting orders from the Judicial/Executive/or Legislative branch.  Much like in the argument of written vs. tradition-based constitutions, this hasn't been a system-destroying flaw in US politics perhaps solely because of "tradition".
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 01, 2019, 04:26:46 pm
No, but it is an interesting (and perhaps troubling) aspect of our system of separation of powers.  What should/would agencies due in the case of conflicting orders from the Judicial/Executive/or Legislative branch.  Much like in the argument of written vs. tradition-based constitutions, this hasn't been a system-destroying flaw in US politics perhaps solely because of "tradition".
Also interesting distinction with US is our permanent civil service who are required to obey the law (by Parliament) not the government and they aren't appointed by the government. So over here the head of civil service had a general letter to the civil service saying they need to stay out of politics despite Brexit, that public trust relies on them being non-political and in which noted he was "mindful" of his constituional responsibilities.

My impression is under Trump career civil servants have performed as best they can. The appointees are, generously, a mixed bag.

Quote
Which matches what I've said.  Both when Obama was President, and Bush, and Clinton, going on even further back, both Congress and the Executive would generally avoid pushing matters to the USSC for the risk of getting a ruling they disagreed with.  Imagine if the USSC ruled that indeed Congress had sweeping, almost unlimited ability to subpoena documents.  Or the contrary - if the USSC ruled that executive privilege was incredibly broad.
I mean surely the risk of that is that Trump doesn't care about a legacy or his role of safeguarding the Presidency. And with him there's surely a chance he would pick a very bad hill to die on, which could lead to a more sweeping decision.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 01, 2019, 04:31:06 pm
It should also be said that if they desire it, the Executive branch could ignore the USSC just as easily as it does Congress.  It's been done before.

I know there is the Andrew Jackson quote that says something like 'the court made its decision... let's seem them enforce it'.  Some googling says that it's probably apocryphal, that the state government in question did (eventually) comply with the ruling (Worcester v Georgia), and thus didn't lead to a direct conflict.

But yes - that would perhaps be the ultimate constitutional crisis - what is there is, say, a subpoena for I dunno Rudy Guiliani to testify before congress, that subpoena is upheld all the way up to the Supreme Court, and the White House refuses to comply.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on October 01, 2019, 04:54:15 pm
It should also be said that if they desire it, the Executive branch could ignore the USSC just as easily as it does Congress.  It's been done before.

I know there is the Andrew Jackson quote that says something like 'the court made its decision... let's seem them enforce it'.  Some googling says that it's probably apocryphal, that the state government in question did (eventually) comply with the ruling (Worcester v Georgia), and thus didn't lead to a direct conflict.

But yes - that would perhaps be the ultimate constitutional crisis - what is there is, say, a subpoena for I dunno Rudy Guiliani to testify before congress, that subpoena is upheld all the way up to the Supreme Court, and the White House refuses to comply.

It will be like taking a drunk from a plane I hear.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 01, 2019, 05:45:28 pm
Can anyone imagine the frothing rage of the GOP if Obama had done something similar?


It can happen right now.  Congressional Democrats could visit Panama or Indonesia and request investigations into Trump's properties in those two countries.  Such a thing is out of bounds in my opinion.  The impeachment is about whether such behavior is out of bounds.  If Trump isn't convicted then Democrats should take that proof that requesting foreign governments to go after the children of your political rivals is the new political norm.  That is what's stake here.  That's why I support impeachment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 01, 2019, 06:41:40 pm
Congress can fine the individuals $10,000 a day or more if they want, so they don't even need to send the capital police to pick someone up. They can bankrupt them in a week. None of the snakes that Trump is put in place is going to sacrifice their fortune for him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 02, 2019, 10:54:00 am
Quote
I’m concerned with aspects of the Committee’s request that can be understood only as an attempt to intimidate, bully, & treat improperly the distinguished professionals of the Department of State
-Mike Pompeo

Quote
The Trump administration is investigating the email records of dozens of current and former senior State Department officials who sent messages to then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s private email, reviving a politically toxic matter that overshadowed the 2016 election, current and former officials said.
As many as 130 officials have been contacted in recent weeks by State Department investigators — a list that includes senior officials who reported directly to Clinton as well as others in lower-level jobs whose emails were at some point relayed to her inbox, said current and former State Department officials. Those targeted were notified that emails they sent years ago have been retroactively classified and now constitute potential security violations

Hmm.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 02, 2019, 12:06:16 pm
This may be stating the obvious but it's not witness intimidation to point out the sanctions that could result from failure to appear and testify truthfully.  Since every US subpoena form contains a statement of potential sanctions for non-compliance, that would mean every person who ever issued a subpoena would be guilty of witness intimidation.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 02, 2019, 01:11:38 pm
Thread of Trump clips ranting to the press today. Clips of the quotes are in the below link.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1179438027984310279

Quote
TRUMP on Adam Schiff: "They should look at him for treason."

Minutes after tweeting "BULLSHIT," Trump avoids saying the word "jockstrap" because he doesn't want to offend anyone.

He then insisting his call with the Ukrainian president that's at the heart of an abuse of power scandal was "perfect."

During the course of a 5-minute rant, Trump says Democrats "should be focused on making America great again" and the media should cover "Obama's conversation with the president of Russia" instead of him.

Trump on concerns about his desire to out a whistleblower: "I don't care"

Trump on the whistleblower: "This country has to find out who that person was, because that person is a spy in my opinion."

Trump ends his media availability by smearing the "corrupt media" as "truly the enemy of the people."

This was during a press event with the Finnish president who looks very comfortable during this.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF45SQMXkAI-BaJ?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on October 02, 2019, 01:17:54 pm
The US is such a fucking joke. Who will rid you of this retardsome President?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 02, 2019, 01:18:09 pm
That facial expression is perfect.  :D
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on October 02, 2019, 02:17:01 pm
From the Pelosi/Schiff press conference today....

https://youtu.be/RFkjVyIKAvk?t=573

If only to give fodder for the law-talkers here to expound on...it feels to me (from my amateur seat), that while arguing that failing to allow witnesses is indeed obstructing Congress's remit to investigate...claiming that doing so is grounds for citing adverse inference to assume that the accusations made are correct...might be stretching that near or beyond the bounds of adverse inference. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 02, 2019, 02:20:48 pm
One thought on his conduct in this is it's a bit like October 2016. It seems very reminiscent of when he probably thought he was going to lose the election and was starting to suggest that Obama and Clinton were cheating/stuffing the ballot boxes with illegal immigrants' votes. He was clearly setting himself up to either contest the vote or spend the rest of his life saying he was elected if not for the rigging by Obama and Clinton.

I didn't know how that would play out then and I wonder how it will now.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 02, 2019, 02:32:07 pm
From the Pelosi/Schiff press conference today....

https://youtu.be/RFkjVyIKAvk?t=573

If only to give fodder for the law-talkers here to expound on...it feels to me (from my amateur seat), that while arguing that failing to allow witnesses is indeed obstructing Congress's remit to investigate...claiming that doing so is grounds for citing adverse inference to assume that the accusations made are correct...might be stretching that near or beyond the bounds of adverse inference.

It's a big old "it depends", with a side of "impeachment is a political, not legal, process".  In a courtroom, the trier of fact is never required to draw an adverse inference - it is just an option they may use.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 03, 2019, 12:38:06 am
That facial expression is perfect.  :D

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/10/02/briefing/oakImage-1570050571247/oakImage-1570050571247-articleLarge-v3.png)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Solmyr on October 03, 2019, 02:39:01 am
https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/status/1179429695483518976

We are all Niinistö.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF4tDYOXYAIqBT4?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 03, 2019, 07:45:18 am
It's frustrating to be a foreigner and see the rot at the heart of the American political system. It affects you, because the US is a pivotal nation in Western civilization, yet there is literally nothing you can do about it.

Ironically, this situation is the best argument ever made as to why Canada ought to join the US - it would add a bunch of states who would never support this guy, which would be better for everyone concerned. Yet of course the Trump presidency is driving a wedge between the US and Canada like never before. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 03, 2019, 08:00:10 am
George Conway's mangus opus

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/george-conway-trump-unfit-office/599128/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: ulmont on October 03, 2019, 09:43:01 am
It's frustrating to be a foreigner and see the rot at the heart of the American political system. It affects you, because the US is a pivotal nation in Western civilization, yet there is literally nothing you can do about it.

It's frustrating to be an American and see the rot at the heart of the American political system.  There is little more that I can do about it than you.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on October 03, 2019, 09:50:03 am
It's frustrating to be an American and see the rot at the heart of the American political system.  There is little more that I can do about it than you.

Get involved. :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 03, 2019, 09:54:20 am
Get involved. :)

I mean hell if you just vote in every election you will be more involved than the vast majority of people.

I find it rather bizarre how some asshole who bombards my feed with political agitprop for months then does not even vote in the elections....but it happens. Especially in local elections.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 03, 2019, 10:11:09 am
It's frustrating to be a foreigner and see the rot at the heart of the American political system. It affects you, because the US is a pivotal nation in Western civilization, yet there is literally nothing you can do about it.

It's frustrating to be an American and see the rot at the heart of the American political system.  There is little more that I can do about it than you.

For all its faults, you are still living in a democracy - vote and convince your friends to vote as well.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on October 03, 2019, 10:15:41 am
It's frustrating to be a foreigner and see the rot at the heart of the American political system. It affects you, because the US is a pivotal nation in Western civilization, yet there is literally nothing you can do about it.

It's frustrating to be an American and see the rot at the heart of the American political system.  There is little more that I can do about it than you.

For all its faults, you are still living in a democracy - vote and convince your friends to vote as well.

The states my people are in, are unfortunately solidly blue.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Larch on October 03, 2019, 11:27:18 am
Apparently Trump's press conference is being...eventful

Quote
Trump calls on Ukraine and China to investigate Biden
Donald Trump has called for Ukraine and China to investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden, even as Trump is the subject of an impeachment inquiry for... pushing Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

In an extraordinary press conference outside the White House – aired on cable news and attended by multiple journalists – Trump said China should investigate the Bidens, and suggested he may ask the country to do so.

Trump also said the Ukraine government should start a “major investigation” into the Bidens, “if they were honest about it”.

As a reminder: there is no evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden did anything wrong in Ukraine. Or in China.

Trump was asked what he thought Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelenskiy – who Trump was recorded pressuring to investigate the Bidens – should do.

“If they were honest about it, they would start a major investigation into the Bidens,” Trump said when asked what he wanted Ukrainepresident Volodymyr Zelensky to do.

“I would say President Zelenskiy, if it was me, I would start an investigation into the Bidens.”

Trump then discussed his trade war with China, before adding:

“China should start an investigation into the Bidens because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened in Ukraine.”

Trump did not explain what he meant by “what happened in China”. Again: there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens.

Trump was then asked if he had requested President Xi of China to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden.

“I haven’t but it’s certainly something we can start thinking about,” Trump said.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 03, 2019, 11:39:10 am
For a man who used to be in the casino business you'd think he'd have learned that doubling down on every bet all the time is not a winning strategy...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 03, 2019, 11:47:00 am
For a man who used to be in the casino business you'd think he'd have learned that doubling down on every bet all the time is not a winning strategy...

Failed casino.  There's also a reason he's gone bankrupt four times and that no US bank would loan him money.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 03, 2019, 11:49:30 am
For a man who used to be in the casino business you'd think he'd have learned that doubling down on every bet all the time is not a winning strategy...

Nah, just double your bet every time you lose, while you lose, to ensure everything's covered when you get your payout eventually. :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 03, 2019, 11:50:14 am
I wonder if any Dem candidates are secretly hoping Donald includes them in the international investigation list.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on October 03, 2019, 12:09:25 pm
Apparently Trump's press conference is being...eventful

Quote
Trump calls on Ukraine and China to investigate Biden
Donald Trump has called for Ukraine and China to investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden, even as Trump is the subject of an impeachment inquiry for... pushing Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

In an extraordinary press conference outside the White House – aired on cable news and attended by multiple journalists – Trump said China should investigate the Bidens, and suggested he may ask the country to do so.

Trump also said the Ukraine government should start a “major investigation” into the Bidens, “if they were honest about it”.

As a reminder: there is no evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden did anything wrong in Ukraine. Or in China.

Trump was asked what he thought Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelenskiy – who Trump was recorded pressuring to investigate the Bidens – should do.

“If they were honest about it, they would start a major investigation into the Bidens,” Trump said when asked what he wanted Ukrainepresident Volodymyr Zelensky to do.

“I would say President Zelenskiy, if it was me, I would start an investigation into the Bidens.”

Trump then discussed his trade war with China, before adding:

“China should start an investigation into the Bidens because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened in Ukraine.”

Trump did not explain what he meant by “what happened in China”. Again: there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens.

Trump was then asked if he had requested President Xi of China to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden.

“I haven’t but it’s certainly something we can start thinking about,” Trump said.

WHAT THE FUCK?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 03, 2019, 12:10:49 pm
I am impressed you are surprised. The President could paint the walls of the Oval Office with his own feces at this point and I would just shrug.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 03, 2019, 12:18:30 pm
Stable genius:

"Are you talking to me?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwdwWCSV5_w
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2019, 12:22:20 pm
I am impressed you are surprised. The President could paint the walls of the Oval Office with his own feces at this point and I would just shrug.

That's what he's counting on.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 03, 2019, 12:29:35 pm
I am impressed you are surprised. The President could paint the walls of the Oval Office with his own feces at this point and I would just shrug.

That's what he's counting on.

Be such an idiot there is no way I would ever consider supporting him in anything?

Well to be fair he achieved that in the 1980s at some point. He has just been running up the score since then.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2019, 12:32:48 pm
I really hope someone is making sure the nuclear football stays out of Trump's line of sight.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2019, 12:34:08 pm
Be such an idiot there is no way I would ever consider supporting him in anything?

Counting on a sense of immediate crisis to be muted by our habituation to the outrageous.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 03, 2019, 12:35:26 pm
I am impressed you are surprised. The President could paint the walls of the Oval Office with his own feces at this point and I would just shrug.

That's what he's counting on.

Be such an idiot there is no way I would ever consider supporting him in anything?

Well to be fair he achieved that in the 1980s at some point. He has just been running up the score since then.

The theory anyway is that his idiocy is a deliberate plan to normalize further idiocy, so instead of agitating to throw him out, good rational people just put up with it, become convinced that fighting the tide of idiocy is pointless and turn away from the struggle. .

Or as the poem puts it:

Quote
The best lack all conviction, while the worst   
Are full of passionate intensity.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 03, 2019, 01:07:34 pm
Stable genius:

"Are you talking to me?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwdwWCSV5_w

Just watched Seth Meyers, he really actually said people think he's a stable genius during that same press conference. :D :bleeding:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 03, 2019, 01:29:59 pm
One of the weirdest aspects of this is that Trump is uniquely vulnerable to criminal investigations in from other countries.  Is he just unable to put two and two together?  He is also on record claiming that the Foreign corrupt practices act is a "horrible law".  The whole thing is surreal.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 03, 2019, 01:31:54 pm
One of the weirdest aspects of this is that Trump is uniquely vulnerable to criminal investigations in from other countries.  Is he just unable to put two and two together?  He is also on record claiming that the Foreign corrupt practices act is a "horrible law".  The whole thing is surreal.

His go to move has always been to accuse others of doing what he is doing.  It engages the whattabout crowd really well.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on October 03, 2019, 01:59:35 pm
I am impressed you are surprised. The President could paint the walls of the Oval Office with his own feces at this point and I would just shrug.

I didn't expect him to so openly engage in behaviour akin to what he is facing an impeachment investigation for.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2019, 02:03:17 pm
Is he just unable to put two and two together? 

Correct.  He is not capable of understanding the idea of objective standards of conduct that apply to everyone in the same way.  His mind only understands raw power and influence.  He sees no contradiction or tension in applying one set of rules to others and rejecting the application of the same exact set of rules to himself.  Not only that, isn't capable of understanding why others would find that to be hypocritical.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2019, 02:06:39 pm
I didn't expect him to so openly engage in behaviour akin to what he is facing an impeachment investigation for.

Because you are still making the mistake of assuming he has the mental apparatus of a normal adult human being.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 03, 2019, 03:46:28 pm
One of the weirdest aspects of this is that Trump is uniquely vulnerable to criminal investigations in from other countries.  Is he just unable to put two and two together?  He is also on record claiming that the Foreign corrupt practices act is a "horrible law".  The whole thing is surreal.

His go to move has always been to accuse others of doing what he is doing.  It engages the whattabout crowd really well.
I don't think he sees any difference between the risks he's facing and his New York life with the thousands of suits and counter-suits plus tabloid PR.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on October 03, 2019, 06:21:28 pm
One of the weirdest aspects of this is that Trump is uniquely vulnerable to criminal investigations in from other countries.  Is he just unable to put two and two together?  He is also on record claiming that the Foreign corrupt practices act is a "horrible law".  The whole thing is surreal.

His go to move has always been to accuse others of doing what he is doing.  It engages the whattabout crowd really well.
Incidentally also a default Russian strategy.  If you want to to know what the Russians have done, just listen to what they accuse others of doing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on October 03, 2019, 07:39:54 pm
Is he just unable to put two and two together? 

Correct.  He is not capable of understanding the idea of objective standards of conduct that apply to everyone in the same way.  His mind only understands raw power and influence.  He sees no contradiction or tension in applying one set of rules to others and rejecting the application of the same exact set of rules to himself.  Not only that, isn't capable of understanding why others would find that to be hypocritical.

In short he's a megalomaniac. And it's scary to think he's going to win 2020 as well.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on October 03, 2019, 11:31:58 pm
Quick question - even if Trump is impeached, there's nothing preventing him from still running in 2020 right?

I believe the senate can ban him from holding federal office again if they actually convicted (they won't)

If they convict, it's not something that they can do;  it's automatic.  See Article 1, Section 2, Clause 7.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on October 04, 2019, 01:19:05 am
2/3 required in the senate I believe.

So about 40% of the Republican senators would need to have some modicum of republican virtue to find Trump guilty.

Doesn't sound likely to me given past form; but what do our Americans think?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2019, 01:23:10 am
I'm offering 1/4 on conviction.

After all I did send an email to Chuck Grassley begging him to impeach.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on October 04, 2019, 02:24:43 am
25% chance?  Too high, I think.  Heck, I'm not even sure the House will pass any articles of impeachment. Sure, a lot of the House Democrats want to do so, but I think some of the leadership still kind of wants to see what happens next November before they do anything.  (For the record, I think that would be a terrible strategy;  if you think there's enough there to impeach, do it after the election would send all sorts of wrong signals if Trump wins re-election, and be pointless if he loses.)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on October 04, 2019, 08:43:40 am
I didn't expect him to so openly engage in behaviour akin to what he is facing an impeachment investigation for.

Because you are still making the mistake of assuming he has the mental apparatus of a normal adult human being.

Well I hope more people adopt my stance than yours as otherwise, we're in for another 4 years if this is just seen as Trump as usual.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on October 04, 2019, 08:49:57 am
2/3 required in the senate I believe.

So about 40% of the Republican senators would need to have some modicum of republican virtue to find Trump guilty.

Doesn't sound likely to me given past form; but what do our Americans think?
It's probably non-zero chance.  We shouldn't underestimate the ability of Trump to brainwash people into being true believers, but I still think the majority of Republican Senators are just scared shitless, and just need favorable political winds to pounce on Trump.  They can probably still do their anti-democratic shit without Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 04, 2019, 09:07:45 am
I agree with DG.  I think that the leading Republicans hate actually having to eat all the shit they eat while pretending it is ice cream, and would turn on Trump in a second if they thought it would promote their control of the judicial branch.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on October 04, 2019, 09:53:39 am
You can't be a Republican in 2019 if you don't like being anally penetrated by Trump. Republicans are garbage and will always be garbage.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on October 04, 2019, 10:14:20 am
You can't be a Republican in 2019 if you don't like being anally penetrated by Trump. Republicans are garbage and will always be garbage.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on October 04, 2019, 01:04:07 pm
Perhaps the biggest factor the GOP might have in punting Trump is how it would affect their own re-election chances.  It might play well with anti-Trump swing voters...but if is thought enough of the hard-core Trump fans would become enraged enough to protest vote or boycott, it would make those with close election margins very worried indeed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 04, 2019, 01:19:38 pm
If Trump's numbers turn against him strongly enough, the GOP Senate will have no problem removing him from office.  None of them actually like or respect the man - they're just all afraid of getting primaried by Trump supporters.

Note that "If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the above sentence though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 04, 2019, 01:21:09 pm
I am just being bombarded with fearmongering and Trump celebrating propaganda right now on youtube. I guess the machine needs to be warmed up a year early.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 04, 2019, 01:30:14 pm
If Trump's numbers turn against him strongly enough, the GOP Senate will have no problem removing him from office.  None of them actually like or respect the man - they're just all afraid of getting primaried by Trump supporters.

Note that "If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the above sentence though.
Totally agree. And I think if they move they'll move quickly and ruthlessly.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 04, 2019, 02:17:47 pm
If Trump's numbers turn against him strongly enough, the GOP Senate will have no problem removing him from office.  None of them actually like or respect the man - they're just all afraid of getting primaried by Trump supporters.

Note that "If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the above sentence though.

People keep comparing it to the Nixon Impeachment, where once public opinion turned support changed rapidly.  To me Fox, the Republican controlled propaganda organ, is going to make it much harder to get to the point where public opinion makes that shift.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 04, 2019, 02:38:58 pm
I think you've got that the wrong way round. I think the Republican party is the political wing of Fox. If the polls turn in a big way I think Fox would dump him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on October 04, 2019, 02:49:10 pm
I think you've got that the wrong way round. I think the Republican party is the political wing of Fox. If the polls turn in a big way I think Fox would dump him.

But Fox is all about embracing disgraced conservatives...they would only dump him and support impeachment only in order to give him his own Fox News show.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 04, 2019, 02:50:19 pm
Definitely :lol:

I've always thought he wanted to lose and spend the next four years ranting about how the vote was rigged and Clinton scandals to magnificent mutual profit on Fox.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 04, 2019, 02:52:12 pm
I think you've got that the wrong way round. I think the Republican party is the political wing of Fox. If the polls turn in a big way I think Fox would dump him.

How do the polls turn more against him when Fox is telling his fans that he's done nothing wrong?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 04, 2019, 02:56:52 pm
It has a lot of viewers, for a news channel, and it helps him have a low floor. But the people who watch Fox News or any other news channel are already unusually politically engaged. The polls will turn if this reaches the tens of millions who tune in and out of politics.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 04, 2019, 03:25:22 pm
I think you've got that the wrong way round. I think the Republican party is the political wing of Fox. If the polls turn in a big way I think Fox would dump him.

How do the polls turn more against him when Fox is telling his fans that he's done nothing wrong?

Fox is starting to turn against him.  Maybe.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-trump-attacks-presidency

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/fox-news-trump-ukraine-tucker-carlson-shepard-smith-feud.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on October 04, 2019, 03:41:20 pm
I don't think they can dump Trump until they find somebody who can crank the insane up even higher.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 04, 2019, 03:48:15 pm
I think you've got that the wrong way round. I think the Republican party is the political wing of Fox. If the polls turn in a big way I think Fox would dump him.

I think the decision making is far too centralized for that to be a meaningful distinction.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 04, 2019, 04:59:46 pm
Napolitano is one of those strict constitution types, he is hardly representative of Fox.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 04, 2019, 05:07:33 pm
Napolitano is one of those strict constitution types, he is hardly representative of Fox.

But still - it was published on the Fox News website.  That's something.

And things are somewhat different with Lachlan Murdoch now running the show.  A Trump/Fox split is not impossible to imagine.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HVC on October 04, 2019, 07:16:40 pm
A lot of Fox News heads are also calling it a coup, so I don’t think there near the tipping point yet, if they’ll ever get there.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2019, 07:21:23 pm
Romney has said Trump is wacked for asking China to investigate Biden.  If Donald goes twittertard on Romney that would ease the path to impeachment.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on October 04, 2019, 07:56:26 pm
Napolitano is one of those strict constitution types, he is hardly representative of Fox.

But still - it was published on the Fox News website.  That's something.

And things are somewhat different with Lachlan Murdoch now running the show.  A Trump/Fox split is not impossible to imagine.
I'm not so sure.  Sheppard Smith and the Judge have been saying anti-Trump stuff for a long while now, as far as I know.  Whatever the reasons are for their contrarian attitude on Fox, it has never made an impact.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Liep on October 05, 2019, 04:29:42 pm
Romney has said Trump is wacked for asking China to investigate Biden.  If Donald goes twittertard on Romney that would ease the path to impeachment.



You mean like this? :lol:

Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
2h
I’m hearing that the Great People of Utah are considering their vote for their Pompous Senator, Mitt Romney, to be a big mistake. I agree! He is a fool who is playing right into the hands of the Do Nothing Democrats! #IMPEACHMITTROMNEY
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2019, 04:47:00 pm
Awesome :cheers:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on October 06, 2019, 12:29:49 pm
Romney can easily run circles around Trump intellectually, which is exactly what he's doing. :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 06, 2019, 12:54:23 pm
McConnell says he will prevent impeachment to make it through the Senate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on October 06, 2019, 01:20:05 pm
McConnell says he will prevent impeachment to make it through the Senate.
We'll see if it lasts.  Moscow Mitch only cares about Moscow Mitch.  If the winds start to change, he'll turn on Trump in a heartbeat and try to pin it all on the Democrats for not acting fast enough or with enough strength.  ...and his base will eat it up.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on October 06, 2019, 01:28:09 pm
I agree with BA. Mitch knows he can end the Trump presidency any time he wants. He's just positioning right now.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 06, 2019, 01:35:48 pm
That said - is Mitch McConnell the most harmful US politician of the last decade?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on October 06, 2019, 02:07:08 pm
That said - is Mitch McConnell the most harmful US politician of the last decade?
Why stop at the last decade?  He's the most harmful in quite some time.  Certainly the 21st century in my opinion.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 06, 2019, 07:20:07 pm
McConnell says he will prevent impeachment to make it through the Senate.


That would not be a wise move.  Or at least it would not be a move that benefits Trump.  It would mean that Trump would go into the election with an impeachment and no acquittal.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 06, 2019, 07:28:21 pm
I'd guess he cares less about Trump than vulnerable GOP senators having votes for acquittal on their records.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on October 06, 2019, 08:13:16 pm
That said - is Mitch McConnell the most harmful US politician of the last decade?
I would go back a lot further than a decade.  If American democracy goes the way of Russian democracy, Mitch will deserve to take most of the credit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 06, 2019, 08:40:02 pm
If American democracy goes the way of Russian democracy, future actors will deserve most of the credit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on October 06, 2019, 08:57:24 pm
I agree with BA. Mitch knows he can end the Trump presidency any time he wants. He's just positioning right now.

It's fanfic to speculate about Republicans ditching Trump. It would implode the party on the eve of the election.  :hmm:

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on October 06, 2019, 08:57:56 pm
Romney can easily run circles around Trump intellectually

High school drop-out meth addicts can run circles around Trump intellectually.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 06, 2019, 09:26:36 pm
Romney can easily run circles around Trump intellectually

High school drop-out meth addicts can run circles around Trump intellectually.

https://youtu.be/YRL4uIVzVWI
 (https://youtu.be/YRL4uIVzVWI)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DontSayBanana on October 06, 2019, 09:39:09 pm
That would not be a wise move.  Or at least it would not be a move that benefits Trump.  It would mean that Trump would go into the election with an impeachment and no acquittal.

The key thing we're forgetting is that 2020 is an election year for McConnell, too- this would give McGrath so much anti-corruption ammunition that it would effectively be self-immolation. McConnell puts party before country, but McConnell before party. And when we factor in his own name-dropping misadventures in China (vis a vis Chao), McConnell has a lot riding on re-election in 2020.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 07, 2019, 07:54:35 pm
That said - is Mitch McConnell the most harmful US politician of the last decade?

Aside from Trump, he's the worst domestic political actor since McCarthy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HVC on October 07, 2019, 08:34:24 pm
Say what you will of McCarthy, he’d have kept a Russian appeasing trump out of office :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on October 08, 2019, 07:08:39 am
Romney can easily run circles around Trump intellectually

High school drop-out meth addicts can run circles around Trump intellectually.

that's his base
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 09, 2019, 12:57:08 am
So the White House have issued a letter stating they will refuse to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry.

Quote
Trump defies Democrats with all-out political warfare on impeachment

(CNN)Donald Trump drove Democrats to the first crucial pivot point of their impeachment confrontation on Tuesday with a defiant declaration that his administration would not cooperate with the investigation.

In a fierce counter-attack after days of failing to control a torrent of damaging disclosures, the Trump White House branded the inquiry an illegal bid to overthrow the 2016 election and blocked testimony from a top diplomat.

"Never before in our history has the House of Representatives -- under the control of either political party -- taken the American people down the dangerous path you seem determined to pursue," White House counsel Pat Cipollone wrote in a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her key committee chairs.

The letter in effect gave notice of all out political warfare as part of the administration's strategy to deprive investigators of all the testimony and evidence that they have demanded, in a clear effort to throttle the capacity of the probe into whether Trump abused his power by pressuring Ukraine to investigate a political opponent -- Joe Biden.

Pelosi says there is no constitutional requirement supporting Trump's demand for a full House vote to initiate impeachment proceedings -- one justification given for the President's refusal to cooperate.

But Trump's move left her with grave strategic decisions on what to do next in a confrontation that puts to the test the integrity of America's bedrock separation of powers and will determine whether she truly gamed out this duel several steps ahead.

Challenging Trump's position in court could bog down the impeachment drive in months of legal challenges. Folding the President's obstruction into articles of impeachment in short order could play into his claims that she's running a "kangaroo court" and rushing the most consequential function of Congress.

The American people will now be effectively asked whether a President who accepts few limits on his power can be held in check by a separate branch of government or whether he can avoid such an examination, a decision that will echo through history.

Democrats are already arguing that Trump's position is a de facto admission of guilt based on a legal and political house of sand.

"I guess they haven't read the Constitution," said Rep. Tom Malinowski of New Jersey, a Democrat who serves on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

"If they don't defend themselves, against the copious evidence that we already have, then I think it disadvantages them," Malinowski told CNN's Erin Burnett.

"This is not the kind of investigation where we are starting with nothing -- we are starting with everything."

Trump's call 'crazy' and 'frightening'

The nation's most serious political crisis in decades came to a head as more shocking details emerged of Trump's attempt to pressure Ukraine.

The now famous whistleblower wrote a memo that describes a White House official as characterizing the call with Volodymyr Zelensky as "crazy" and "frightening," a source familiar with the whistleblower complaint said.

The New York Times, which first reported the new details, said in its piece that White House lawyers discussed how to handle the discussion because in the official's view the president had clearly committed a criminal act."

The nugget raises the possibility that Sondland's text to a colleague that there was no quid pro quo involved was on the orders of the President himself -- a possibility Democrats will surely want to investigate.

House Intelligence Committee chairman Adam Schiff suggested Monday that Sondland had texts and emails on a personal device that the State Department was refusing to hand over.

The new revelations explain why the White House is refusing to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. It can't allow a window into wild, self-serving and possibly even criminal behavior by the President in his dealings with Ukraine that could turn Americans against him.

As Democrats seek to make a case that the President defies constitutional norms and abuses his power by setting foreign policy for personal political ends, Trump's aides must try to slow their momentum and weave a tale of congressional overreach.

The struggle intensified further after multiple polls showed a majority of Americans now support opening an impeachment inquiry.

But there is not yet a majority for removing the President from office, underscoring the critical impact of the political battle in Washington now being fully joined by both sides.

Trump dares Pelosi to hold risky vote

Trump's letter effectively dares Pelosi, who may want to protect her more moderate members from political damage, to hold a full vote in the House on moving forward with the inquiry.

Such a vote was held in the last two impeachment sagas concerning Presidents Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, but there is nothing in the Constitution that mandates such a vote. Trump's team says the absence of such a vote means that he has no choice but to withhold cooperation to preserve the scope of his office for future occupants.

"At a constitutional level, that is what we call complete and total nonsense," said CNN legal and national security analyst Susan Hennessey on "The Situation Room.
"

The White House maintained that without such a vote, the President and other Executive Branch officials will be denied basic rights available to all Americans.

It accused Pelosi of denying Trump the right to cross-examine witnesses, to have access to evidence, and for counsel to be present during depositions.

"Put simply, you seek to overturn the results of the 2016 election and deprive the American people of the President they have freely chosen," Cipollone wrote.


He also argued that the President did nothing wrong in his call with Zelensky, and claimed that Democrats had prejudiced the case with unfair process and had violated the separation of powers.

The tone of the letter however was far more partisan in tone than legalistic, reflecting that the battle over Trump's fate will now come down to a vicious political fight. Mostly, it appeared to defend Trump based on the perceived unfairness of the political process rather than the merits of the Ukraine case.

Pelosi vowed in her own letter to House Democrats: "The President will be held accountable. When it comes to impeachment, it is just about the facts and the Constitution," she wrote.

"At the same time as President Trump is obstructing justice, abusing power and diminishing the office of the presidency, we have a responsibility to strengthen the institution in which we serve.
This is essential if we are to honor the separation of powers which is the genius of the Constitution."

The Speaker could decide to call the President's bluff by scheduling a full House vote. But there is no guarantee that Trump would cooperate if a full House vote takes place.
"We don't want to speculate on what would happen in various hypothetical situations" Cipollone wrote.

A vote would also give Republicans a platform to grandstand and to turn the impeachment process into a circus -- as they have done in previous Democratic oversight hearings -- a factor that might weigh on Pelosi's deliberations.

But there is also an argument that offering Trump a blueprint for an open process, with clearly defined impeachment goals, is not just politically smart but it's the right thing to do at a perilous national moment that demands basic standards of fairness.

As the shockwaves of Trump's letter rocked Capitol Hill, Democrats issued a subpoena for testimony and evidence from Sondland, who was stopped from offering a deposition on Capitol Hill by the White House hours before his Tuesday appointment.

Still, as this tumultuous presidency has shown, refusing a congressional subpoena is less risky than ignoring a criminal summons. Democrats could hold recalcitrant witnesses in contempt but that would entail the kind of legal imbroglio they are seeking to avoid, which Trump plans to create.

Democratic House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff hinted that the remedy for the refusal of Sondland and other key officials to testify would rebound against the President.

"The failure to produce this witness, the failure to produce these documents we consider yet additional strong evidence of obstruction of the constitutional functions of Congress," Schiff told reporters.

Girding for the battle ahead, the White House contacted outside lawyers as it seeks impeachment counsel. One of those attorneys is former South Carolina Rep. Trey Gowdy, CNN's Pamela Brown reported on Tuesday.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 09, 2019, 04:55:34 am
So the White House have issued a letter stating they will refuse to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry.

Quote
...House Intelligence Committee chairman Adam Schiff suggested Monday that Sondland had texts and emails on a personal device that the State Department was refusing to hand over....

Commence Republicans baying at the moon, a la the Clinton story.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on October 09, 2019, 07:24:47 am
aaah, I pine for the good old days when the biggest scandal was the U.S. president saluting a marine with a coffee in his hand.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Saladin on October 09, 2019, 07:56:34 am
Say what you will of McCarthy, he’d have kept a Russian appeasing trump out of office :P

:D
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on October 09, 2019, 06:06:51 pm
A Fox News poll just came out showing a majority of Americans support impeaching and removing Donald as President   :lol:

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 09, 2019, 06:14:52 pm
A Fox News poll just came out showing a majority of Americans support impeaching and removing Donald as President   :lol:

This world is not that kind.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 09, 2019, 07:16:24 pm
Several polls have recently come out with support at or slightly above 50%.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2019, 07:29:38 pm
Not enough to tip Republican senators, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2019, 07:32:31 pm
A Fox News poll just came out showing a majority of Americans support impeaching and removing Donald as President   :lol:

That's actually right. :nerd:

Impeachment is the action in the House analogous to an indictment.  To be removed from office requires the Senate vote.

Not sure why someone would support impeachment but not conviction however.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on October 10, 2019, 10:21:48 am
Is the removal from office final after the Senate vote, or can the President appeal to the Supreme Court?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on October 10, 2019, 10:23:07 am
Conviction in the Senate trial results in immediate removal from office and the VP becoming President.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 10, 2019, 10:23:47 am
A Fox News poll just came out showing a majority of Americans support impeaching and removing Donald as President   :lol:

That's actually right. :nerd:

Impeachment is the action in the House analogous to an indictment.  To be removed from office requires the Senate vote.

Not sure why someone would support impeachment but not conviction however.

I guess theoretically you could want to investigation in what looks shady, but reserve judgment until after proof has been presented and witnesses have been heard.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 10, 2019, 10:28:11 am
Is the removal from office final after the Senate vote, or can the President appeal to the Supreme Court?

A bunch of judges have been impeached in the past and AFAIK none have ever been given the opportunity to appeal once convicted. I don't see why the President would be able to.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 10, 2019, 10:36:41 am
Is the removal from office final after the Senate vote, or can the President appeal to the Supreme Court?

The Senate's judgement is not reviewable.  The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presides over the Senate trial.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 10, 2019, 11:18:38 am
Uh, what the fuck just happened?  Two people connected to Giuliani and the Ukraine were just arrested.

Quote
CNN)Two associates of Rudy Giuliani connected to efforts to dig up dirt in Ukraine on Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden have been arrested and indicted on criminal charges for allegedly funneling foreign money into US elections.

The charges against the men suggest Giuliani's push on Ukraine and President Donald Trump's receptiveness to it had ties to an illegal effort to influence US politics and policy using foreign funds. The indictment involves two people central to the impeachment inquiry in the House.
The two Giuliani-linked defendants, Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas, were detained at Dulles International Airport outside of Washington on Wednesday and are scheduled to appear in court in Virginia at 2 p.m. ET Thursday.
Overall, four men were indicted Thursday on two counts of conspiracy, one count of false statements to the Federal Election Commission and one count of falsification of records. The four are alleged in the indictment unsealed by New York federal prosecutors to have conducted a scheme beginning in March 2018 to evade campaign finance laws.
Along with Fruman and Parnas, Andrey Kukushkin has been arrested and is expected to appear in court Thursday in the Northern District of California, according to the Manhattan US Attorney's office. The fourth man, David Correia, hasn't been arrested. All four are US citizens, according to the indictment.
Parnas was Giuliani's fixer in Ukraine, introducing him to current and former officials as far back as 2018, according to CNN's reporting.

Starting in November 2018, Giuliani told CNN, Parnas and Fruman introduced him to former and current Ukrainian officials who provided information that Giuliani claims is damaging to some of Trump's political enemies, including Biden. House Democrats have subpoenaed documents from Giuliani relating to those interactions.
The request from Congress is the second set of subpoenas linking Giuliani and other Trump affiliates to Parnas. The first set, part of a lawsuit filed in federal court in Florida earlier this year, sought Parnas' financial records and included a request for any work he may have done on Giuliani's behalf.
They gave hundreds of thousands in donations to a Trump-allied super PAC, according to the Miami Herald.
The Wall Street Journal first reported the arrests.

Fruman and Parnas asked a US congressman to help get the US ambassador to Ukraine fired at the same time that they were committing to raise tens of thousands of dollars for that congressman's re-election effort, according to the indictment. Parnas made their request to the congressman, who is not named, in part at the behest of one of more Ukraine government officials, the indictment states.
The ambassador at the time, Marie Louise Yovanovitch, was eventually recalled in May after earning the ire of Trump and other conservatives, who viewed her as biased against the President.
Yovanovitch has become one of the central figures in the ongoing impeachment effort in the House and is expected to appear before lawmakers for a deposition on Friday.

As they sought to raise a promised $20,000 for the congressman, Fruman allegedly made a donation to the lawmaker in Parnas' name to skirt limits on individual donations, in violation of campaign finance law, the indictment says.
America First Action, the super PAC, told CNN in a statement they have not used the donation made by the men.
"America First Action placed that contribution in a segregated bank account, it has not been used it for any purpose and the funds will remain in this segregated account until these matters are resolved," America First Action's spokeswoman Kelly Sadler said in a statement. "We take our legal obligations seriously and scrupulously comply with the law and any suggestion otherwise is false."
Push for marijuana retail licenses

Part of the alleged scheme revolved around an effort to curry favor with politicians who could help them win licenses for a retail marijuana business they hoped to establish. The business venture and the ensuing lobbying effort was largely funded by a Russian national, running afoul of campaign finance violations that prohibit political donations from foreigners, the indictment states.
The Russian is not named but identified in court documents as a businessman. At one point, Kukushkin is quoted in the indictment discussing ways to hide the funder's "Russian roots" because of the "current political paranoia about it."
Parnas and Fruman, as well as the two other defendants, are said to have drafted a chart that outlined a "multi-state license strategy," planning for $1 to $2 million dollars in political donations to federal and state committees that were backed by the Russian national.
The foreign national eventually made wire transfers totaling $1 million to Fruman and another unnamed individual last year, and the defendants used those funds to make donations to a number of political candidates in Nevada that they thought could help further their plans for the marijuana business, the indictment says.
The marijuana business never actually came to fruition, according to the indictment.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/10/politics/guliani-client-arrested-campaign-finance/index.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 10, 2019, 06:42:27 pm
This is a pretty big break. Seems they were involved in huge campaign violations in order to bribe congressmen to support the ouster of the Ukranian ambassador who wouldn't go along with the Biden conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on October 11, 2019, 12:16:50 am
That's incredibly stupid, even for people around Trump.  Congressmen can't get a foreign ambassador fired.  WTF?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 11, 2019, 03:01:11 am
That's incredibly stupid, even for people around Trump.  Congressmen can't get a foreign ambassador fired.  WTF?

The Russian money was trying to buy permission to do a pot operation in the US.  Getting the ambassador fired is separate from that.  That has to do with fucking up Trump's attempt to smear Biden.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 11, 2019, 12:36:49 pm
Trump's rally was vile.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 11, 2019, 12:53:08 pm
Details?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 11, 2019, 01:20:36 pm
Among other things he said that Pelosi is "either really stupid or she's lost it."

Projection much?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 11, 2019, 02:21:52 pm
Among other things he said that Pelosi is "either really stupid or she's lost it."

Projection much?

That's Trump's MO.  He accuses others of things he himself has done.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 11, 2019, 02:25:03 pm
So the former Ukraine ambassador testified today, in contravention of Trump's direction not to, but in compliance with the House's subpoena.

How many others will follow this lead?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 11, 2019, 03:17:19 pm
The ones that don't want to get hit with an enforcement action will comply.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on October 11, 2019, 03:23:50 pm
The Sondland guy, whose texts helped blow this up even more, agreed to testify next week. Also in contravention of the administration's orders.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 11, 2019, 03:50:41 pm
The ones that don't want to get hit with an enforcement action will comply.

I don't know the precise details of an enforcement action.  I know here refusal to comply with a subpoena can result in your arrest by police and being brought to court in custody.

But in a situation where congress asserts a subpoena is valid, but the President asserts it is not?  Clearly federal law enforcement (FBI, Secret Service) is going to defer to the President's direction.  Other law enforcement though might well just say "eh, let's wait for a court ruling" which could take months.

People voluntarily complying with their subpoena is going to go a long way to getting any impeachment and removal off the ground I think.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 11, 2019, 07:46:53 pm
The ones that don't want to get hit with an enforcement action will comply.

I don't know the precise details of an enforcement action.  I know here refusal to comply with a subpoena can result in your arrest by police and being brought to court in custody.

But in a situation where congress asserts a subpoena is valid, but the President asserts it is not?  Clearly federal law enforcement (FBI, Secret Service) is going to defer to the President's direction.  Other law enforcement though might well just say "eh, let's wait for a court ruling" which could take months.

People voluntarily complying with their subpoena is going to go a long way to getting any impeachment and removal off the ground I think.


The president doesn't have the power to order a subpoena at least not directly.  He can ask the Justice Department to subpoena someone, but that needs to go through the courts.  Congress does have the power to order a subpoena.  They have the power to fine people for contempt and to jail them.  That hasn't happened in a long time though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 17, 2019, 01:25:28 pm
Quote
Acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney acknowledged Thursday that U.S. military funds to Ukraine were previously withheld at least in part because of a desire to have the Eastern European nation investigate unfounded allegations that foreign countries may have aided Democrats in the 2016 election.

"Did he also mention to me in [the] past the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely," Mulvaney said of a conversation he had with President Donald Trump. "No question about that. But that's it, and that's why we held up the money."

Story Continued Below
Mulvaney added: "The look-back to what happened in 2016 certainly was part of the thing that he was worried about in corruption with that nation."

Story Continued Below
Pressed on whether he was describing a quid pro quo with Ukraine, Mulvaney responded that "we do that all the time with foreign policy," and cited the holding back of aid to Northern Triangle countries in an attempt to affect their immigration policies.

"I have news for everybody: Get over it. There's going to be political influence in foreign policy," he said. "That is going to happen. Elections have consequences, and foreign policy is going to change from the Obama administration to the Trump administration."

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/17/mulvaney-confirms-ukraine-aid-2016-probe-050156

Wow.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 17, 2019, 02:01:52 pm
We're just on the step where "it's no big deal, everybody does it".

Soon we'll be on to the next scandal and forget about this one.  Can't let there be too much time spent on one.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 17, 2019, 02:12:41 pm
So we should vote for an outsider because the establishment politicians are too corrupt...but he is going to be corrupt anyway because the establishment politicians are corrupt?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 17, 2019, 02:15:06 pm
I wonder what "corruption related to  the DNC server" is supposed to mean.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 17, 2019, 02:16:47 pm
I wonder what "corruption related to  the DNC server" is supposed to mean.

Trump continues to believe the conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians, not Russians, hacked Hillary's emails.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 17, 2019, 02:42:28 pm
Trump continues to believe the conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians, not Russians, hacked Hillary's emails.

No shit.  Never heard that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 17, 2019, 02:49:51 pm
Trump continues to believe the conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians, not Russians, hacked Hillary's emails.

No shit.  Never heard that.

Interesting piece from a few weeks ago that attempts to explain the rings of conspiracy theories that seem to be believed in Trumpland.

https://thebulwark.com/this-is-what-reality-looks-like-from-inside-trump-world/
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 17, 2019, 03:00:22 pm
I'm not even sure how to respond anymore.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 17, 2019, 03:02:26 pm
I'm not even sure how to respond anymore.

Perhaps you should feel reassured - mental illness no longer disqualifies you from high level government positions.  In fact it's almost required!
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on October 17, 2019, 05:08:40 pm
That's kind of in bad taste Beeb.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on October 17, 2019, 05:37:52 pm
That's kind of in bad taste Beeb.

I don't think we need to treat Trump and his posse with kid gloves.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 17, 2019, 06:23:26 pm
Trump continues to believe the conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians, not Russians, hacked Hillary's emails.

No shit.  Never heard that.

It was one of the centerpieces in the transcript that Trump released. He demanded Zelensky investigate Biden and find the servers of Hillary emails in Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 17, 2019, 07:39:10 pm
That's kind of in bad taste Beeb.


Nah, it's cool.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on October 17, 2019, 09:16:41 pm
Conviction in the Senate trial results in immediate removal from office and the VP becoming President.
thanks! :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on October 17, 2019, 09:22:20 pm
Is the removal from office final after the Senate vote, or can the President appeal to the Supreme Court?

The Senate's judgement is not reviewable.  The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presides over the Senate trial.
A bunch of judges have been impeached in the past and AFAIK none have ever been given the opportunity to appeal once convicted. I don't see why the President would be able to.

Ok, I had forgotten about the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presiding the trial.  It's only the 3rd impeachment since I was born :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on October 17, 2019, 09:29:52 pm
So we should vote for an outsider because the establishment politicians are too corrupt...but he is going to be corrupt anyway because the establishment politicians are corrupt?
Yes.  Your best bet is to amend the US Constitution and allow foreign born residents to become President. We'll send you Justin Trudeau.  For free.  We'll even throw half of the Liberal Party of Canada in the pot to sweeten the deal.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on October 17, 2019, 09:43:49 pm
That's kind of in bad taste Beeb.


Nah, it's cool.

 :hug:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 17, 2019, 11:45:06 pm
That's kind of in bad taste Beeb.


Nah, it's cool.

Glad to hear.  No disrespect was at all intended.  You've been open with your past, and I thought it would be funny.

Besides I know you'd never stoop so low to work in the Trump White House. :hug:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 17, 2019, 11:52:24 pm
"You don't have to be crazy to work here- but it helps."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on October 18, 2019, 04:59:44 pm
Besides I know you'd never stoop so low to work in the Trump White House. :hug:
Sometimes, reading the US newspapers, I wonder if I shouldn't take anti-psychotic for my hallucinations problem...   :wacko:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 18, 2019, 05:19:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UrWOGP3Oqo

Kaisich now on board with impeachment.  Unfortunately he's a paid CNN consultant, which kind of undercuts the message.

At some point we should change the usage of impeachment to fit the common understanding of it.  Senate vote for conviction=impeachment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 18, 2019, 07:49:26 pm
@Joan

I'm halfway through the Economist briefing on Ukrainegate, and they do not support your claim that Hunter was brought in as part of the solution.  Their take is much more in line with mine, that a greasy cheating oligarch company hired him to a greasy board job in hopes of aquiring greasy influence.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on October 18, 2019, 08:25:42 pm
I do wonder what people were thinking with Biden's son taking that job.  Surely this has all the appearances of impropriety, which on its own is enough to qualify as one.  I guess Biden can't really control his son if his son decides to share his corporate madskillz with the Ukrainians, but someone should've tried to put a stop to that anyway.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 19, 2019, 11:35:30 pm
It wasn't just Hunter Biden; it was Biden and Kwasniewski, and Mitt Romney's old foreign policy advisor.  It's the kind of thing that tarnished companies do all the time when they trying to polish up their image - they hire a bunch of international names for the Board.  None of these people were part of a "solution" - it never works that way.  It's a way for the company's executives to signal to investors and regulators they are changing their ways, really, this time.  Whether Burisma did really clean up, I don't know, what I do know is that there aren't allegations of wrongdoing after Biden joined the board.  The allegations were that two years before Biden joined, the company founder used improper influence when acting as ecology minister to favor the company; a somewhat ironic allegation given what is happening now in the US.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 19, 2019, 11:37:02 pm
Well fuck and shit Joan, don't make me hunt back six pages of posts to show you where you said Hunter was part of the solution.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 19, 2019, 11:44:23 pm
I said this in the Facebook thread:
Quote
Also the inquiry into Burisma was basically a garden variety tax probe.  They were accused on underpaying tax in the years prior to Hunter Biden joining the board.  The matter was settled when Burisma made some back tax payments.  There was no reason for Hunter Biden to believe himself personally at risk from the probe.  On the contrary, he and several other "names" were hired to make the company look better.

That's pretty much what I just said above, except that I missed the other probes into the founder's influence peddling while a minister.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 19, 2019, 11:45:23 pm
This is going to real messy for Rudy.  It seems he was using two very shady characters as "associates" who met with all sorts of Ukrainian officials saying god knows what.  These guys used an LLC to funnel tons of money to the Trump campaign (using/abusing Citizens United).  Privileged status of any or all of these conversations or reports to Rudy is dubious.  The whole issue of the ambassador's firing is going to come back up.  This looks like it could be a Watergate-esque carnival of "colorful" witnesses and plots within plots.

Meanwhile this post from last month is holding up pretty good ...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on October 22, 2019, 08:18:25 am
So now he has called impeachment - a lynching.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 22, 2019, 11:16:34 am
So now he has called impeachment - a lynching.


Well if he insists...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on October 22, 2019, 01:51:45 pm
So now he has called impeachment - a lynching.
...with all of the usual suspects backing up his usage and not acknowledging what the term means in American history and to African Americans in particular.  That or saying that what Trump is enduring is worse.  Every step further along this path we go, I wonder if we'll ever truly be able to mend as a nation.  The mask has been removed and it will never be able to fit on properly again.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on October 22, 2019, 02:11:02 pm
"The President never really means what he says. He's just joking. But he's right."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 22, 2019, 02:50:20 pm
"The President never really means what he says. He's just joking. But he's right."

Making him right in this particular case is looking more and more appealing.  ;)

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 22, 2019, 07:07:59 pm
US Ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor's opening statement at Congressional hearing.  Link to whole thing at bottom.  I saw a news clip that said the testimony is still ongoing.

Quote
During this same phone call I had with Mr. Morrison [NSC Ukraine guy], he went on to describe a
conversation Ambassador Sondland had with Mr. Yermak at Warsaw.
Ambassador Sondland told Mr. Yermak that the security assistance money would
not come until President Zelenskyy committed to pursue the Burisma investigation.
I was alarmed by what Mr. Morrison told me about the Sondland-Yermak conversation.

This was the first time I had heard that the security assistance—not
just the White House meeting—was conditioned on the investigations.

Very concerned, on that same day I sent Ambassador Sondland a text message
asking if “we [are] now saying that security assistance and [a] WH meeting are
conditioned on investigations?” Ambassador Sondland responded asking me to
call him, which I did. During that phone call, Ambassador Sondland told me that
President Trump had told him that he wants President Zelenskyy to state publicly
that Ukraine will investigate Burisma and alleged Ukrainian interference in the
2016 U.S. election.

Ambassador Sondland also told me that he now recognized that he had made a
mistake by earlier telling the Ukrainian officials to whom he spoke that a White
House meeting with President Zelenskyy was dependent on a public announcement
of investigations—in fact, Ambassador Sondland said, “everything” was dependent
on such an announcement, including security assistance. He said that President
Trump wanted President Zelenskyy “in a public box” by making a public statement
about ordering such investigations.

https://time.com/5707713/bill-taylor-opening-statement-impeachment-inquiry/
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on October 22, 2019, 07:20:33 pm
I wonder if this will be enough evidence to convince some of the GOP.

Nah, who am I kidding? They'll just screech about the Deep State.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 22, 2019, 07:22:55 pm
Full 15 pages he submitted

https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/542ee36f-eafc-4f2b-a075-b3b492d981a5/note/5125c5bd-9723-4ea9-8180-7bb6fd714783.pdf
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 22, 2019, 07:31:08 pm
I wonder if this will be enough evidence to convince some of the GOP.

Nah, who am I kidding? They'll just screech about the Deep State.

The officially sanctioned tag line for this particular incident is "no quid pro quo."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on October 22, 2019, 07:36:06 pm
The TV coverage of the Senate trial will be the highest rated program of all time. Especially when Trump represents himself.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 22, 2019, 07:55:11 pm
I wonder if this will be enough evidence to convince some of the GOP.

Nah, who am I kidding? They'll just screech about the Deep State.

The officially sanctioned tag line for this particular incident is "no quid pro quo."


That's sort of out the window after the Chief of Staff admitted to a Quid Pro Quo.  Not that it was a very good defense.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 22, 2019, 08:04:47 pm
The officially sanctioned tag line for this particular incident is "no quid pro quo."

Considering that has been the cover for political corruption in this country for...um...a really long time I cannot blame them for trying.

Of course Hans would call this free speech.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 23, 2019, 04:01:35 am
The TV coverage of the Senate trial will be the highest rated program of all time. Especially when Trump represents himself.
:lmfao:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on October 23, 2019, 06:37:11 am
The TV coverage of the Senate trial will be the highest rated program of all time. Especially when Trump represents himself.
:lmfao:
Of course he's going to represent himself. He has the best words.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 11:45:36 am
Tim Morrison's testimony is being rescheduled due to the Cummings death.  If he corroborates Taylor, the last shred of Trump's Latin defense is gone.

Then all that's left is the it's not a federal crime defense. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 23, 2019, 11:57:12 am
The defense I keep seeing is that Donald Trump should be able to cross examine witnesses and confront his accuser.  Something that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 12:26:48 pm
The defense I keep seeing is that Donald Trump should be able to cross examine witnesses and confront his accuser.  Something that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Under the criminal law, the analogy would be that targets of a grand jury investigation would be able to confront and cross-examine GJ witnesses. Which obviously they can't do.  It's always amusing to find these authoritarian types magically transforming into radical civil libertarians the moment an investigation goes against they way they'd like it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 23, 2019, 12:46:58 pm
The defense I keep seeing is that Donald Trump should be able to cross examine witnesses and confront his accuser.  Something that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Under the criminal law, the analogy would be that targets of a grand jury investigation would be able to confront and cross-examine GJ witnesses. Which obviously they can't do.  It's always amusing to find these authoritarian types magically transforming into radical civil libertarians the moment an investigation goes against they way they'd like it.


That's what I thought, though I thought of it as:

Criminal investigation----> Grand Jury ----->Criminal trial
Congressional hearings ----> Impeachment -----> Senate Trial.

Somehow I don't think they would approve of the police being forced to give organized crime figures* lists of people who made criminal complaints or claim to have witnessed illegal activity prior to a criminal trial.

*Organized crime figures that are Russian, Ukrainian or named Trump are fine.  In fact, Guilliani may have done just that...

I took a gander at the Federalist papers regarding impeachment and noted that President does the get to face his accusers:  the US Senate.

I think they have tested their final defense: Get Over it.  Trump can do whatever he wants.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 01:09:34 pm
The House has the power to impeach (indict) and thus has the functional role of a grand jury in an ordinary criminal case.  The witness depositions and subpoenas are the functional equivalent of a grand jury subpoena.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 01:24:52 pm
May also be worth pointing out that the concept of "quid pro quo", unlike "collusion," is a pretty well-defined concept in federal law, in connection with sexual harassment cases.  You don't need an express condition to be verbalized to establish a quid pro quo - it is enough to show that a benefit was withheld for an improper purpose even if the condition wasn't communicated directly to the victim, or to provide evidence of an implicit condition.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 23, 2019, 01:31:58 pm
Tim Morrison's testimony is being rescheduled due to the Cummings death.  If he corroborates Taylor, the last shred of Trump's Latin defense is gone.

Then all that's left is the it's not a federal crime defense.

I think the last line of defence here is "this is bad, but not bad enough for impeachment".
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 23, 2019, 01:43:58 pm
I think Mulvaney was ahead of schedule and they’ll end up basically saying everyone does it or would do it if they were smart enough.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 02:07:08 pm
I think Mulvaney was ahead of schedule and they’ll end up basically saying everyone does it or would do it if they were smart enough.

More than anything else that's why he has to be impeached.
If he isn't, then it makes that statement come true.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on October 23, 2019, 03:56:31 pm
Right. If Trump gets away with this action, it'll open the floodgates to seeking external influence in future elections. If he can flout it, there's no reason not to do so in the future.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: PDH on October 23, 2019, 04:19:45 pm
I was going to comment on the Republican takeover of the hearings in the secure room, but I realized what is the point?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 23, 2019, 04:27:22 pm
The House has the power to impeach (indict) and thus has the functional role of a grand jury in an ordinary criminal case.  The witness depositions and subpoenas are the functional equivalent of a grand jury subpoena.

But Republicans in the House have the right to question (cross examine) witnesses, jah?

The best defense IMO would have been that investigating the Bidens in Ukraine is a legitimate state interest of the US.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: PDH on October 23, 2019, 04:35:25 pm
But Republicans in the House have the right to question (cross examine) witnesses, jah?

The best defense IMO would have been that investigating the Bidens in Ukraine is a legitimate state interest of the US.

The Republican are on the committees, they are in the hearings, they can ask questions.  The problem is that potentially sensitive information is also being discussed, so making this phase public is nuts.

I agree, wasting money on investigating the closed story of Burisma makes strategic sense, but I am not sure it would help - the nuts are strong on the Right.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 23, 2019, 04:48:29 pm
The House has the power to impeach (indict) and thus has the functional role of a grand jury in an ordinary criminal case.  The witness depositions and subpoenas are the functional equivalent of a grand jury subpoena.

But Republicans in the House have the right to question (cross examine) witnesses, jah?

The best defense IMO would have been that investigating the Bidens in Ukraine is a legitimate state interest of the US.

They tried that.  The problem is it is so transparent that the only "corruption" Trump was interested in was that of Hunter Biden.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 23, 2019, 04:51:32 pm
Right. If Trump gets away with this action, it'll open the floodgates to seeking external influence in future elections. If he can flout it, there's no reason not to do so in the future.


I think that Democrats in the House and the Senate should make this clear, and to clarify the their position they should state that if Trump is not removed from office they will take immediate action to request criminal inquiries of the Trump organization in all countries where Donald Trump has property.  Make it clear that Donald Trump, his family and his business will never be safe if it is legal to request foreign nationals to open criminal investigations into political opponents.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 23, 2019, 04:59:39 pm
One of the most shocking things about this is that several legitimate politicians were in on this.  Rick Perry may not be particularly clever but he knows that using government resources for campaign resources is a crime.  They explain that to your when you first run for office.  Secretary of State's office (secretary of state for individual states, not the Federal one) sends you a big packet of information. Guys like Bar and Mulveny and Pompeo should know better.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 23, 2019, 05:02:27 pm
I don't think it's coincidental that Perry resigned.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 23, 2019, 05:24:39 pm
One of the most shocking things about this is that several legitimate politicians were in on this.  Rick Perry may not be particularly clever but he knows that using government resources for campaign resources is a crime.  They explain that to your when you first run for office.  Secretary of State's office (secretary of state for individual states, not the Federal one) sends you a big packet of information. Guys like Bar and Mulveny and Pompeo should know better.
I often wonder that. But we're a few steps away from people who could serve in any Republican administration acting as guardrails and quite deep into the reserve team right now.

And even then I think Mulvaney is still technically OMB Director plus Acting Chief of Staff.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 23, 2019, 05:25:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOiZ3Jzqc7U

About two dozen GOP Congressdudes stormed into secure hearing room where the NSC chick was giving testimony.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 23, 2019, 05:31:00 pm
:lol: Apparently 12 them are serving on committees with access and could attend the hearings if they wanted.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/republicans-storm-scif-impeach-trump-pizza-phones

Quote
Notably, according to a list provided by Gaetz's office of the Republicans who RSVP'd to join the protest, 12 of them are members of the Oversight or Foreign Affairs committees — including Rep. Jim Jordan, the ranking member on the Oversight Committee — meaning they have been allowed to sit in on all depositions held in the SCIF in recent weeks. A spokesperson for Rep. Ken Buck, who is on the list and serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee, however, later clarified that he did not attend, though he tweeted in support.

Rep. Fred Keller, an Oversight member who joined the protest, "was acting in solidarity with those members of Congress who are not allowed in the hearings, to review testimony, or read transcripts of this secret inquiry. ... [He] believes the way this inquiry is being conducted is unfair and it needs to stop," according to a spokesperson.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 05:53:18 pm
I don't think it's coincidental that Perry resigned.

Right, and the full circumstances of Bolton's departure are also coming more into focus.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 23, 2019, 05:55:27 pm
GOP coming around to civil liberties AND imitating Occupy Wall Street.

Trump really is a miracle worker.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 23, 2019, 07:21:47 pm
https://twitter.com/JoshDorner/status/1187000181436358661

Quote
🚨 for Trump in the
@QuinnipiacPoll
:

-Indys approve of the inquiry by a 21-point margin. Last week, they were only +5.

-Indys now back removal by 8 points. Last week, they opposed it by 6, a 14-point swing.

These are big moves in a week.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 24, 2019, 05:38:22 am
:lol: Apparently 12 them are serving on committees with access and could attend the hearings if they wanted.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/republicans-storm-scif-impeach-trump-pizza-phones

Quote
Notably, according to a list provided by Gaetz's office of the Republicans who RSVP'd to join the protest, 12 of them are members of the Oversight or Foreign Affairs committees — including Rep. Jim Jordan, the ranking member on the Oversight Committee — meaning they have been allowed to sit in on all depositions held in the SCIF in recent weeks. A spokesperson for Rep. Ken Buck, who is on the list and serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee, however, later clarified that he did not attend, though he tweeted in support.

Rep. Fred Keller, an Oversight member who joined the protest, "was acting in solidarity with those members of Congress who are not allowed in the hearings, to review testimony, or read transcripts of this secret inquiry. ... [He] believes the way this inquiry is being conducted is unfair and it needs to stop," according to a spokesperson.

It was the White House that classified the phone conversation as SCI so they could hide it for political reasons.  I love how that's biting them right in the ass.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 24, 2019, 09:05:36 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHlW2oCWsAobJqh?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2019, 10:27:38 am
 :huh:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 24, 2019, 10:31:43 am
Having a narcissist for a President is really terrible.

Hell I thought every politician had a bit of a narcissist streak going but it is really different when it is the real thing versus just giant egos.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2019, 10:41:44 am
Quote
Principled and patriotic Republicans, though on respirators with not many left, are in certain ways more valuable and necessary for our Country than the Can't Do Anything in the Senate Democrats. Watch out for them, they are America's last hope!

FHP
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 24, 2019, 10:42:55 am
Also sign of the times that the President of the United States openly and publicly pressures the Fed to move interest rates for his own political interest, and it attracts no notice.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 24, 2019, 10:47:31 am
Also sign of the times that the President of the United States openly and publicly pressures the Fed to move interest rates for his own political interest, and it attracts no notice.

Hell when he doesn't do something out of naked self interest you are almost impressed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on October 24, 2019, 12:44:25 pm
Hell when he doesn't do something out of naked self interest you are almost impressed.

When did that happen?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2019, 04:26:24 pm
Also sign of the times that the President of the United States openly and publicly pressures the Fed to move interest rates for his own political interest, and it attracts no notice.
It's interesting. I always thought if he started to try and pressure or politicise the Fed that would possibly be the sort of thing that would cause Republicans in Congress (especially the Senate) to abandon him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 24, 2019, 04:53:45 pm
Also sign of the times that the President of the United States openly and publicly pressures the Fed to move interest rates for his own political interest, and it attracts no notice.

Hell when he doesn't do something out of naked self interest you are almost impressed.

Umm, Trump is notorious for how much he borrows money (and then is lax about paying it back).

Calling for lower interest rates *is* an act out of naked self-interest.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: merithyn on October 24, 2019, 09:12:10 pm
Also sign of the times that the President of the United States openly and publicly pressures the Fed to move interest rates for his own political interest, and it attracts no notice.

Hell when he doesn't do something out of naked self interest you are almost impressed.

Umm, Trump is notorious for how much he borrows money (and then is lax about paying it back).

Calling for lower interest rates *is* an act out of naked self-interest.

Not when it gives the impression of a booming economy, which is the only thing he polls well on.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 24, 2019, 09:21:40 pm
It's self-interest in both cases, whether his finances or his poll numbers benefit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 29, 2019, 12:44:21 pm
So apparently the Lt. Col who is testifying today is probably a spy and traitor.  He was born in Ukraine and thus can't be trusted.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on October 29, 2019, 12:52:40 pm
So apparently the Lt. Col who is testifying today is probably a spy and traitor.  He was born in Ukraine and thus can't be trusted.

If so, that's a pretty big failure by the Trump Whitehouse, since they put the guy in that position. :D
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on October 29, 2019, 02:44:30 pm
They put him there in order to catch him. Brilliant maneuver by our very stable genius President.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2019, 02:46:02 pm
It's interesting. I always thought if he started to try and pressure or politicise the Fed that would possibly be the sort of thing that would cause Republicans in Congress (especially the Senate) to abandon him.

Nope the whole Goldbug/Rand Paul/"audit the Fed" lobby has been co-opted or vanished.  GOP in addition to being the party of unfree trade and giant fiscal deficits is also the soft money party.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on October 29, 2019, 04:05:15 pm
So apparently the Lt. Col who is testifying today is probably a spy and traitor.  He was born in Ukraine and thus can't be trusted.

If so, that's a pretty big failure by the Trump Whitehouse, since they put the guy in that position. :D

What are your feelings? You used to work in Whitehouse IIRC.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 29, 2019, 05:41:03 pm
No, he used to ride the Whitehorse.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on October 29, 2019, 05:57:48 pm
That's a horse of a different color.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on October 29, 2019, 06:16:18 pm
And conservatism followed with him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on October 29, 2019, 06:47:42 pm
It's interesting. I always thought if he started to try and pressure or politicise the Fed that would possibly be the sort of thing that would cause Republicans in Congress (especially the Senate) to abandon him.

Nope the whole Goldbug/Rand Paul/"audit the Fed" lobby has been co-opted or vanished.  GOP in addition to being the party of unfree trade and giant fiscal deficits is also the soft money party.
I don't think there was much co-opting to be had.  Paul types seemed to embrace Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories long before it was fashionable.  The rest of the GOP joined them more than the other way around.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 31, 2019, 02:15:36 am
The Vindman twins, both on the National Security Council. Does that ever cause confusion, I wonder. :hmm:

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/10/28/us/politics/28dc-vindman/28dc-vindman-articleLarge.png)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on October 31, 2019, 07:48:09 am
Republican toadies persist in calling the impeachment procedure a coup.

This is extremely dangerous.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 31, 2019, 08:42:26 am
Republican toadies persist in calling the impeachment procedure a coup.

This is extremely dangerous.

I find it difficult to tell how seriously to rate their bullshit.

Will the US have actual political assassinations and the like, stirred up by such rhetoric? Seems quite possible at this point.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 31, 2019, 08:43:14 am
Republican toadies persist in calling the impeachment procedure a coup.

This is extremely dangerous.

This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 31, 2019, 08:49:32 am
Yeah we always hear about how bad it is to use Constitutional methods to check the power of the executive because it is trying to cancel an election and is anti-democratic. I guess because Congress isn't elected or anything? I never understood that logic.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on October 31, 2019, 08:50:27 am
Republican toadies persist in calling the impeachment procedure a coup.

This is extremely dangerous.

This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.

The question in my mind is whether such rhetoric will have a different effect on impressionable minds this time around. 

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on October 31, 2019, 09:02:18 am
This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.

Do you not see anything different at all from these varying circumstances?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on October 31, 2019, 09:28:55 am
Republican toadies persist in calling the impeachment procedure a coup.

This is extremely dangerous.

I find it difficult to tell how seriously to rate their bullshit.

Will the US have actual political assassinations and the like, stirred up by such rhetoric? Seems quite possible at this point.

Yes, that's a key consideration.

In the UK we've already had a political assassination of an MP, though not clear how much the divisive political debate of the last few years influenced the right wing murder.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on October 31, 2019, 09:30:03 am
This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.

Do you not see anything different at all from these varying circumstances?

I see differences--Nixon's toadies lost, Clinton's toadies won, and we don't know yet about Trump's toadies.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 31, 2019, 09:31:27 am
The whole Clinton situation was a shitshow. I wish he had done the decent thing and resigned.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on October 31, 2019, 10:05:12 am
Yeah we always hear about how bad it is to use Constitutional methods to check the power of the executive because it is trying to cancel an election and is anti-democratic. I guess because Congress isn't elected or anything? I never understood that logic.

Then, in the same breath, the Republicans will loudly screech the "Republic not a Democracy" line. And support the Electoral College. And...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on October 31, 2019, 10:27:14 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EINy_aiXUAAVgdr?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 31, 2019, 10:28:06 am
I did not realize the United State Constitution was something Soviet-style.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on October 31, 2019, 10:40:09 am
When did US Congressmen began using these stupid props?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on October 31, 2019, 10:43:19 am
When did US Congressmen began using these stupid props?

I know McCarthy did so they have for awhile.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 31, 2019, 12:00:10 pm
This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.

Do you not see anything different at all from these varying circumstances?


Of course not.  The ability to see differences is an innately partisan act.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on October 31, 2019, 05:33:50 pm
This will be a shit show.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on October 31, 2019, 06:06:01 pm
This will be a shit show.


Yes it will be, and I think that it will guarantee Trump's reelection.  I also don't think there is any other choice.  Trump went way over the line on this one.  We make a stand here, or we never make a stand.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 31, 2019, 06:22:03 pm
This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.

Do you not see anything different at all from these varying circumstances?

Not in terms of the toadies toadying, no.  I see a huge difference in the degree to which the President deserves to be impeached.  The current president is borderline psychotic, and far more dangerous than any previous president.  But the latter isn't what I was responding to.  What I was responding to was the pretense that toadies were suddenly toadying over impeachment when they hadn't in the past.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on October 31, 2019, 06:22:19 pm
This will be a shit show.


Yes it will be, and I think that it will guarantee Trump's reelection.  I also don't think there is any other choice.  Trump went way over the line on this one.  We make a stand here, or we never make a stand.

I agree
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 31, 2019, 06:31:42 pm
I agree too, except with the part that his reelection is guaranteed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 31, 2019, 06:34:45 pm
This is also extremely standard.  The Democratic toadies did it for Clinton, and the Republican toadies did it for Nixon.  Toadies are going to toady; they can't help it.

The question in my mind is whether such rhetoric will have a different effect on impressionable minds this time around.

It is certainly possible.  The rhetoric gets downloaded directly into fanatical brains now,when it used to be at least somewhat filtered by the news media.  But that's been the standard for years now.  Remember when Trump wrote his own doctor's report and claimed both that 'all of the tests came back positive" (i.e. that he had every disease and ailment under the sun) and that he was 'the most physically fit candidate for President in history?"  The toadies and impressionable minds all ate that shit like it was ice cream.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 31, 2019, 06:38:17 pm
I did not realize the United State Constitution was something Soviet-style.
The Soviets had a constitution and it allowed impeachment.  Most constitutions do.  Most Republican representatives are probably too stupid to realize that, though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 31, 2019, 06:43:00 pm
This will be a shit show.

I'm not sure about that. As the truth comes out, I think that Trumps supporters will get more and more isolated as the independent voters start to see the scope and nakedness of Trump's corruption.  You'll be left with the bigots, their totally compromised fellow-travelers, and then against them a vast majority either appalled by the depth of the betrayal or confirmed in their opinion that Trump was never for a minute a suitable candidate for his office.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on October 31, 2019, 07:03:58 pm
This will be a shit show.

I'm not sure about that. As the truth comes out, I think that Trumps supporters will get more and more isolated as the independent voters start to see the scope and nakedness of Trump's corruption.  You'll be left with the bigots, their totally compromised fellow-travelers, and then against them a vast majority either appalled by the depth of the betrayal or confirmed in their opinion that Trump was never for a minute a suitable candidate for his office.

Your faith in humanity is quite touching.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 31, 2019, 07:11:34 pm
I was encouraged to learn the other day that Donald is only at 45% approval in Texas, though I don't know how that has moved recently.

I do think the biggest danger is that nothing new emerges in the impeachment inquiry, and the cesspool of retardation that is the American electorate just changes channels.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on October 31, 2019, 08:06:02 pm
I was encouraged to learn the other day that Donald is only at 45% approval in Texas, though I don't know how that has moved recently.

I do think the biggest danger is that nothing new emerges in the impeachment inquiry, and the cesspool of retardation that is the American electorate just changes channels.

At least one of the witnesses to testify so far have noted that the SECRET/SCI transcripts of the Trump-Zelensky conversation include damning wording that the White house deliberately left out of the memo that supposedly "summarized" that conversation.  It's always the coverup that does the most damage.  The pressure on the WH to declassify the transcript will become unbearable but, of the Democrats are lucky, Trump will pull a Nixon and try to resist revealing the truth until a court orders him to.  Trump could be dangling for months.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 31, 2019, 08:09:11 pm
This will be a shit show.

I'm not sure about that. As the truth comes out, I think that Trumps supporters will get more and more isolated as the independent voters start to see the scope and nakedness of Trump's corruption.  You'll be left with the bigots, their totally compromised fellow-travelers, and then against them a vast majority either appalled by the depth of the betrayal or confirmed in their opinion that Trump was never for a minute a suitable candidate for his office.

Your faith in humanity is quite touching.
The numbers in quite a few polls seem to be moving in the right direction.

https://twitter.com/PaulBegala/status/1189939381244702721
Quote
New PA poll from respected
@FandMCollege
 shows
@realDonaldTrump
 in big trouble.  Approval 35%, re-elect 37%, with 59% ready to vote him out. 57% support impeachment inquiry. Current GOP strategy is not working. But they’re doubling down nonetheless.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: PDH on October 31, 2019, 08:20:02 pm
Fuck.  Tainted.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 31, 2019, 08:27:28 pm
So 2% think we should just skip the inquiry and proceed straight to go.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 31, 2019, 08:40:24 pm
I did not realize the United State Constitution was something Soviet-style.
The Soviets had a constitution and it allowed impeachment.  Most constitutions do.  Most Republican representatives are just smart enough to know their constituents are too stupid to realize that though.

FYP
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on November 01, 2019, 01:16:28 am
Trump is now Florida Man.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on November 01, 2019, 02:15:48 am
I'm not sure about that. As the truth comes out, I think that Trumps supporters will get more and more isolated as the independent voters start to see the scope and nakedness of Trump's corruption.  You'll be left with the bigots, their totally compromised fellow-travelers, and then against them a vast majority either appalled by the depth of the betrayal or confirmed in their opinion that Trump was never for a minute a suitable candidate for his office.
This is what I'm hoping for as well.  This is one of the reasons I think that pursuing impeachment will be a boon for Democrats, win or lose.  That and preserving the integrity of the nation's laws and rules.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on November 01, 2019, 02:17:19 am
I'm really surprised there hasn't been more assasination attempts over there given the language . I recall just one against a guy playing baseball?
Death threats against politicians seems to be the new normal over here 😔
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on November 01, 2019, 02:21:28 am
Trump is now Florida Man.  :lol:

https://twitter.com/NYGovCuomo?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1190059166129426432&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fus-news%2F2019%2Foct%2F31%2Ftrump-florida-mar-a-lago-new-york

 :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on November 01, 2019, 03:28:10 am
I'm really surprised there hasn't been more assasination attempts over there given the language . I recall just one against a guy playing baseball?
Death threats against politicians seems to be the new normal over here 😔

Assassinations and the like are a tool of those who believe that they represent a group whose views are a minority opinion, and won't get a say in a fair election.  But over here, extremists on both ends of the spectrum think that they represent a majority view, and figure they'll win in a fair election.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 01, 2019, 09:13:17 am
This seems like not a good sign for him

https://twitter.com/evanasmith/status/1190221907372789760

Quote
NEW UT/TT POLL: 46% of Texans say congressional impeachment investigations of
@POTUS
 
@realdonaldtrump
 are justified — including 84% of Ds, 13% of Rs, 46% of indies. 42% say not justified https://texastribune.org/2019/11/01/texas-voters-evenly-split-impeachment-donald-trump-uttt-poll-finds/ #txlege #tx2020
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on November 01, 2019, 09:57:46 am
Trump is not popular among the soccer mom set. The Republican strongholds in the suburbs are weakening and that is good for the Democrats in our increasingly urban/suburban state. Or at least it led to a little Democrat surge in the 2018 election.

Granted that might change if the Republicans ever go back to a more traditional candidate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on November 01, 2019, 10:45:56 am
I see the master manipulator, Vladimir Putin at work here, agent 'Marco Polo' has been ordered to start Operation 'Maximum Taint'.   <_<
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on November 01, 2019, 12:21:34 pm
I'm really surprised there hasn't been more assasination attempts over there given the language . I recall just one against a guy playing baseball?
Death threats against politicians seems to be the new normal over here 😔

Assassinations and the like are a tool of those who believe that they represent a group whose views are a minority opinion, and won't get a say in a fair election.  But over here, extremists on both ends of the spectrum think that they represent a majority view, and figure they'll win in a fair election.

I'm not sure there
 The vast majority of the bollocks in the UK is coming from the brexit brigade who have a pretty firm hand on power.
Those being denied democracy are largely peaceful, a milkshake or two excluded.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 01, 2019, 12:57:41 pm
It is more complex than that. Especially if you layer on the abuse Labour MPs receive. It’s not just Brexit or Leavers.

The main feature here is how much worse it is for women MPs. As I say we now have a police team specifically for the protection of MPs, there’s at least one conviction for a plot to murder an MP (by far-right) and there’s the Jess Philips story of having to share a stage with a candidate who was best known for tweeting that Philips “wasn’t even worth raping”.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on November 01, 2019, 02:10:17 pm
I think there is a fair amount of straightforward mysogyny going on, regardless of political affiliation. Its very depressing, when i was young I hoped we would have got rid of this by the time I was old, instead things seem to be getting worse  :(
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on November 01, 2019, 04:28:22 pm
It doesn't necessarily derive from brexit of course. But there's an almost perfect overlap between those people who devote a huge chunk of energy to flinging hate at Diane Abbot and your stereotypical gammon.

Nobody would ever claim the left are completely perfect angels who have never done anything wrong. But it is overwhelmingly coming from the right.

There was an American report a few months back that found pretty similar. IIRC 74% of political violence coming from the white right vs 2% from the left.  Yet this violence hasn't been directed at politicians largely.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 01, 2019, 04:31:05 pm
Brexitjack
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 04, 2019, 05:02:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHrET-ogQDE

Trump asked the UK to help discredit Meuller report the day after he talked to Ukraine.  AG Barr in the thick of things.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on November 05, 2019, 02:26:50 am
Irn-Bru-Gate  :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 05, 2019, 03:10:42 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHrET-ogQDE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHrET-ogQDE)

Trump asked the UK to help discredit Meuller report the day after he talked to Ukraine.  AG Barr in the thick of things.

There is something really wrong with that guy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 05, 2019, 09:26:37 am
Well it looks like the "We were only concerned with corruption" argument went out the window.  Trump was pressuring the Ukrainians to stop the investigation of Manafort.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 05, 2019, 02:37:35 pm
Gordon Sondland was about the only witness at the House impeachment inquiry who said that Ukrainian military aid was not linked to the investigation of Hunter Biden.  His evidence was contradicted by many other witnesses.

GUess what - he know recalls that he told a Ukrainian National Security advisor that yes, the aid likely wouldn't be released until HUnter Biden was investigated.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/05/sondland-reverses-himself-on-ukraine-quid-pro-quo-000318
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on November 05, 2019, 02:38:54 pm
Surely just an honest mistake. :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on November 05, 2019, 02:43:57 pm
Trump values loyalty above all else, but will throw his minions under the bus at the first opportunity. Good to see the bus is headed the other way this time.  :D
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2019, 02:44:39 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofs7b6w1Pts&t=246s

This clip is about Rudy's problematic involvement with a Romanian corruption case, but in passing it mentions that the first American the Romanian greaseball hired was none other than...Hunter Biden. 

And the second one he hired, the one who passed the job on to Rudy was, of all people, former FBI director Louis Freeh.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on November 05, 2019, 02:59:02 pm
Trump values loyalty above all else, but will throw his minions under the bus at the first opportunity. Good to see the bus is headed the other way this time.  :D

Meh. It seems to follow the pivot to the "yes, there was a quid pro quo, so what?", defense that Republicans are now mustering.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 05, 2019, 03:07:56 pm
This clip is about Rudy's problematic involvement with a Romanian corruption case, but in passing it mentions that the first American the Romanian greaseball hired was none other than...Hunter Biden. 

And the second one he hired, the one who passed the job on to Rudy was, of all people, former FBI director Louis Freeh.
It's a huge issue in the US and the EU.

We all sneer at Greece or Italy for overt corruption.

But look at the jobs relatives of respectable, clean Western/Northern European politicians get. Or the gigs they do in retirement - whether it's Tony Blair consulting for the Saudis and investment banks, or Gerhard Schroeder, or Helmut Kohl for that matter. Or Jack Straw, former foreign secretary caught advising a fake Chinese company how he could set up an "advisory council" to push for advantageous changes to regulations in Brussels and whose wife joned the board of the company that operated most big airports in the UK, and whose son led the Remain campaign and floats from think tank to think tank.

None of this stuff is against the rules, or illegal. But it's corruption and the people who are paying for it know that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2019, 03:33:16 pm
My fear is the degree of Hunter's greasiness will undercut the clarity of the impeachment inquiry in the eyes of the American public.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on November 05, 2019, 04:17:26 pm
You are right to be afraid.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on November 05, 2019, 07:37:01 pm
My fear is the degree of Hunter's greasiness will undercut the clarity of the impeachment inquiry in the eyes of the American public.

Yes, it is ironic that Biden gets the "greasy" tag when he walked away from the situation when he saw what it was, and then the President's own lawyer takes the case... and it's Hunter Biden that gets the tag!

Maybe Rudy was there to sell copies of the 12 "very successful books" that Trump is now claiming he wrote.  Trump hasn't even read twelve books once you subtract the coloring books.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 07, 2019, 04:59:16 pm
Washington Post is reporting that Donaldo asked Barr to publicly announce there was nothing illegal in Ukraine, and that Barr said no thanks.

I picked it up from an otherwise useless CNN clip, so no link.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 07, 2019, 05:08:14 pm
Washington Post is reporting that Donaldo asked Barr to publicly announce there was nothing illegal in Ukraine, and that Barr said no thanks.

I picked it up from an otherwise useless CNN clip, so no link.

Seen that reported as well.  Trump denies making the request.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on November 07, 2019, 10:24:42 pm
The Dems need to approach this as a RICO case. Start flipping bottom-feeders and soon enough you get Guliani, Barr, Sessions to turn. Time is of the essence though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 07, 2019, 10:28:48 pm
The Dems need to approach this as a RICO case. Start flipping bottom-feeders and soon enough you get Guliani, Barr, Sessions to turn. Time is of the essence though.

The thing is, that's exactly what Mueller did.  What do you think happened to Paul Manafort?

Problem is the end result was too complicated for the public to understand, even though it was damning.

That's why the Ukraine story is getting traction: it's so simple.  Trump threatened to hold back military aid to Ukraine unless they investigated his crackpot conspiracy theory, and investigated his political opponent.  He used the Presidency to his personal benefit.  All Republicans can say at this point is "well it's bad, but not impeachment bad".
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on November 08, 2019, 12:08:54 am
The Dems need to approach this as a RICO case. Start flipping bottom-feeders and soon enough you get Guliani, Barr, Sessions to turn. Time is of the essence though.
Like the Charbonneau inquiry?  Or like the (very) long lasting (12 years) investigation of the Liberal Party of Quebec?  Or like the Gommery Inquiry that totally changed the political landscape of Canada and clearly punished the wrongdoers othe Liberal Party?  Or more like that anti Hell's Angels operation that saw most of the charges dropped for most of the accused?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 08, 2019, 12:48:28 am
What Beeb said.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on November 08, 2019, 01:20:32 am
John Bolton refuses to testify and said that if he were subpoenaed he'd take it to court.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 08, 2019, 07:50:40 am
Schiff is spiking potential adverse witnesses, taking them off the table.  They already have more than enough evidence to proceed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Grey Fox on November 08, 2019, 07:55:07 am
The Dems need to approach this as a RICO case. Start flipping bottom-feeders and soon enough you get Guliani, Barr, Sessions to turn. Time is of the essence though.
Like the Charbonneau inquiry?  Or like the (very) long lasting (12 years) investigation of the Liberal Party of Quebec?  Or like the Gommery Inquiry that totally changed the political landscape of Canada and clearly punished the wrongdoers othe Liberal Party?  Or more like that anti Hell's Angels operation that saw most of the charges dropped for most of the accused?

You need to stop doing that. The USA is nothing like us.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on November 08, 2019, 01:14:26 pm
The Dems need to approach this as a RICO case. Start flipping bottom-feeders and soon enough you get Guliani, Barr, Sessions to turn. Time is of the essence though.
Like the Charbonneau inquiry?  Or like the (very) long lasting (12 years) investigation of the Liberal Party of Quebec?  Or like the Gommery Inquiry that totally changed the political landscape of Canada and clearly punished the wrongdoers othe Liberal Party?  Or more like that anti Hell's Angels operation that saw most of the charges dropped for most of the accused?

You need to stop doing that. The USA is nothing like us.
It's similar enough.

RICO inquiry are good to proceed with a criminal investigation that does not depend on public support.
An impeachment is all about political support, because you don't want the target to appear as a victim.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on November 10, 2019, 09:33:38 pm
Lately, every time I hear from Lindsey Graham, I'm thinking of Pat Geary.  John McCain must be rolling in his grave thinking about what his comrade has become.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 11, 2019, 08:12:52 am
I'd like Republicans to put their money were their mouths are and put a bill forward that nobody can be charged with a crime without the right to cross examine witness.  Perhaps one that forces police to provide people suspected of crimes the names of all the people who have provided information.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 11, 2019, 08:48:29 am
Republican House members attending hearings in their traditional “Stop Snitching” t-shirts.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 11, 2019, 10:36:22 am
Republican House members attending hearings in their traditional “Stop Snitching” t-shirts.


Seriously?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 13, 2019, 11:14:41 am
So the Republican defense boils down to "don't listen to this, it's boring.  We'll tell you what you need to know".
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on November 13, 2019, 10:31:22 pm
I'd like Republicans to put their money were their mouths are and put a bill forward that nobody can be charged with a crime without the right to cross examine witness. 

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but there's no need for a bill for that--it's already in the Sixth Amendment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 13, 2019, 11:38:30 pm
I'd like Republicans to put their money were their mouths are and put a bill forward that nobody can be charged with a crime without the right to cross examine witness. 

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but there's no need for a bill for that--it's already in the Sixth Amendment.


Charging someone with a crime involves going to a grand jury.  Grand jury proceedings are secret and the defendant is not allow to cross examine anyone.  My point is that the due process Trump and his enablers in Congress are demanding is not afforded to anyone else in the country.  If they are really concerned about this, they should pass laws that would allow anyone to enjoy these rights, not just billionaires named Donald Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on November 13, 2019, 11:46:05 pm
This isn't secret anyway. Anybody can watch and the Republicans can cross examine on the President's behalf if they choose.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 15, 2019, 02:52:42 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y26j2a3WDXE

Roger Stone (remember him?) found guilty of lying to Congress and obstructing justice, and other stuff.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 15, 2019, 02:57:12 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y26j2a3WDXE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y26j2a3WDXE)

Roger Stone (remember him?) found guilty of lying to Congress and obstructing justice, and other stuff.


Well, it's not quite Roger Stone swinging from a lamp post, but it's good.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 15, 2019, 03:00:10 pm
I wonder what the deal is with the soul brother preacher and the black Kato carrying the sign.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on November 15, 2019, 07:46:53 pm
Trump will just pardon Stone. Banana republic ftw.

Ambassador Yovanovitch's testimony today was something else. She got a standing ovation at the end, from members of the public, never seen that before. I wonder how senate republicans can look themselves in the mirror.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 15, 2019, 07:52:44 pm
Trump will just pardon Stone. Banana republic ftw.

Ambassador Yovanovitch's testimony today was something else. She got a standing ovation at the end, from members of the public, never seen that before. I wonder how senate republicans can look themselves in the mirror.

The whole thing is nauseating.  While Trump has some genuine supporters in the House, most Republicans are simply terrified of him.  It's like a trial were the defendant is pointing a gun at the jury box the entire time.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on November 16, 2019, 02:29:58 am
Trump will just pardon Stone. Banana republic ftw.

Ambassador Yovanovitch's testimony today was something else. She got a standing ovation at the end, from members of the public, never seen that before. I wonder how senate republicans can look themselves in the mirror.

The whole thing is nauseating.  While Trump has some genuine supporters in the House, most Republicans are simply terrified of him.  It's like a trial were the defendant is pointing a gun at the jury box the entire time.

What are they afraid he'll do to them?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on November 16, 2019, 02:37:24 am
Suetonius and Tacitus are good authors to consult on what happens when a state has a spineless senate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 16, 2019, 06:14:16 am
Trump will just pardon Stone. Banana republic ftw.

Ambassador Yovanovitch's testimony today was something else. She got a standing ovation at the end, from members of the public, never seen that before. I wonder how senate republicans can look themselves in the mirror.

The whole thing is nauseating.  While Trump has some genuine supporters in the House, most Republicans are simply terrified of him.  It's like a trial were the defendant is pointing a gun at the jury box the entire time.

What are they afraid he'll do to them?

Make them lose their jobs. :o
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on November 16, 2019, 06:14:39 am
Trump will just pardon Stone. Banana republic ftw.

Ambassador Yovanovitch's testimony today was something else. She got a standing ovation at the end, from members of the public, never seen that before. I wonder how senate republicans can look themselves in the mirror.

The whole thing is nauseating.  While Trump has some genuine supporters in the House, most Republicans are simply terrified of him.  It's like a trial were the defendant is pointing a gun at the jury box the entire time.

What are they afraid he'll do to them?

Make them lose their jobs. :o

Oh noes!!111 :o
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 16, 2019, 09:57:03 am
Trump will just pardon Stone. Banana republic ftw.

Ambassador Yovanovitch's testimony today was something else. She got a standing ovation at the end, from members of the public, never seen that before. I wonder how senate republicans can look themselves in the mirror.

The whole thing is nauseating.  While Trump has some genuine supporters in the House, most Republicans are simply terrified of him.  It's like a trial were the defendant is pointing a gun at the jury box the entire time.

What are they afraid he'll do to them?


He's threaten to primary anyone who doesn't defend him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 16, 2019, 11:52:54 am
I don't think that's the right reason on this. He's bluster - he's got involved in primaries but I don't think Trump's actually gone out and primaried any incumbents. This party takeover isn't, I don't think, like the Tea Party.

Though I could be totally wrong.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 16, 2019, 03:24:26 pm
I don't think that's the right reason on this. He's bluster - he's got involved in primaries but I don't think Trump's actually gone out and primaried any incumbents. This party takeover isn't, I don't think, like the Tea Party.

Though I could be totally wrong.


What do you think it is?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 16, 2019, 05:40:34 pm
I don't know.

I think part of it is that I think the Republican parties a fairly miserable place right now if you're not with Trump which is why over the last two cycles, I think, there's been record levels of retirement. So some of it is attrition - there's something similar happening here - and that leads to Trumpier candidates.

I also think they're party men fundamentally so they don't want to cause each other difficulty and get ahead of an issue, like Flake and Corker did. Also they will believe in their party. But it's changed and they are trying to work out how they get to exercise power/influence in it. At the moment the way to have power or influence is sycophancy, because unlike the Tea Party they can't become stars. The old influence networks and gatekeepers - which the Tea Party had too - have broken down, it's now just Trump and his audience.

But I've just not seen any senate level decapitations like you saw with the Tea Party. In part, possibly because Trump is so transactional and it's quite easy to get him on side if you just praise loudly on TV.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 05:59:53 pm
I think it's simple math.  As long as Donald's approval stays above 25 law makers can expect to be punished by voters for crossing Trump, at least in the primary.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 16, 2019, 06:14:49 pm
I think that's a big factor too. As long as he isn't either losing his base or hurting the Republican base a lot will stay on side - again party men.

But I don't think it's fear. He's remaking the party (largely through attrition/example) but as with everything isn't competent or engaged enough to be doing it actively.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 16, 2019, 06:40:14 pm

But I've just not seen any senate level decapitations like you saw with the Tea Party. In part, possibly because Trump is so transactional and it's quite easy to get him on side if you just praise loudly on TV.


I don't know what "senate level decapitations" means.  Getting on Trump's good side is harder than it looks.  Trump is both paranoid and jealous and eventually turns on his own people.

The big thing, though, is that sycophancy is not actually getting Republican senators and house members much influence or power.  For all his toadying, Lindsey Graham isn't actually getting anything in return.  That was plainly obvious last month with the Turkish-Kurdish crisis.  Years of work vanished on the whim of Donald Trump.  Nobody has been able to mitigate Trump's disastrous ideas.  Everyone who has tried has failed or lost their jobs.

I agree that morale is very low, but a lot of it has to do with shame and frustration.  I'm not sure what drives his most vocal defenders.  Devin Nunes appears to lack shame, Louis Gohmert is too stupid to understand what he doing, and it turns out that Jim Jordan has had a long career of failing to notice crimes happening under his nose.  There is a few more with darker intentions, they hope that they could become the leaders of a new nationalist party.  The rest of them have been relegated to being mere ornaments constantly ordered to defend actions they oppose.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 07:06:32 pm
I've disagreed before and I'll disagree again.  Within the space of a day Trump went from green lighting Turkey and calling Kurds fags who didn't help enough at Verdun to threatening the mother of all sanctions if Turkey didn't wise up.  The intervening event was Graham and some other dude introducing anti-Turkish, pro-Kurdish legislation in the Senate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 16, 2019, 07:10:38 pm
By Senate decapitations I mean what the Tea Party did: Mike Lee beating Bob Bennett, Miller beating Murkowski. They took down establishment Republicans and were to be feared. I can't think of an example of that - it's been attrition and retirement.

Also I get your point, but you're only measuring power or influence as the extent to which you can mitigate Trump. If you are able to act as a guard-rail or bend him to your will then you're succeeding. But that's not how any President behaves, it's just a lot of Trump's views (especially on foreign policy) and his behaviour are so far out of the norm.

It depends who those defenders are. Some probably like him or are true believers, some will be craven in front of whatever is the dominant mood in the Republican party (I always think of Hannity who has gone from ultra neo-con, to supporting immigration reform, to Trumpist). I think a lot just feel there's safety in numbers and they don't want to be "prominent Trump critic" or Nunes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 16, 2019, 07:13:25 pm
I've disagreed before and I'll disagree again.  Within the space of a day Trump went from green lighting Turkey and calling Kurds fags who didn't help enough at Verdun to threatening the mother of all sanctions if Turkey didn't wise up.  The intervening event was Graham and some other dude introducing anti-Turkish, pro-Kurdish legislation in the Senate.
How much of that is the intervention of Graham versus the threat of an intervention by the Senate? Is it that Graham's approach has worked, or is it that he's ultimately a legislator and can get things to happen?

I also think this happened before I think the first time he tried to pull out of Syria and the Senate overwhelmingly passed a resolution so he backed down for eighteen months? Have a vague memory of something along those lines.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 07:16:30 pm
How much of that is the intervention of Graham versus the threat of an intervention by the Senate? Is it that Graham's approach has worked, or is it that he's ultimately a legislator and can get things to happen?

I also think this happened before I think the first time he tried to pull out of Syria and the Senate overwhelmingly passed a resolution so he backed down for eighteen months? Have a vague memory of something along those lines.

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 16, 2019, 07:23:53 pm
Wondering if you think it was a function of Graham's personal relationship and personal diplomacy or his institutional power as a Senator with a bit of influence?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on November 16, 2019, 07:27:25 pm
I've disagreed before and I'll disagree again.  Within the space of a day Trump went from green lighting Turkey and calling Kurds fags who didn't help enough at Verdun to threatening the mother of all sanctions if Turkey didn't wise up.  The intervening event was Graham and some other dude introducing anti-Turkish, pro-Kurdish legislation in the Senate.

By that point the horse was already out of the barn.  Turkey invaded and the US left.  Our leverage is gone and the only reason Turkey slowed up was due to the Kurds making a deal with Russia/Syria.  So sure Trump protested loudly but Turkey got what they wanted from Trump.  So sure they got Trump to say different things, but he didn't reverse course or effectively amend the problem.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 07:31:29 pm
Wondering if you think it was a function of Graham's personal relationship and personal diplomacy or his institutional power as a Senator with a bit of influence?

Closer to the second.  Trump needs to keep 34 Senators on side to avoid the boot.  Trump, in my estimation, feared that a bill saying WeHeartKurds would threaten that blocking vote in the Senate.

I don't think anything else can explain his 24 hour, 180 degree turn.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 07:33:49 pm
By that point the horse was already out of the barn.  Turkey invaded and the US left.  Our leverage is gone and the only reason Turkey slowed up was due to the Kurds making a deal with Russia/Syria.  So sure Trump protested loudly but Turkey got what they wanted from Trump.  So sure they got Trump to say different things, but he didn't reverse course or effectively amend the problem.

Are you saying that the only way Senate Republicans could really demonstrate juice is if they got a war with Turkey?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 16, 2019, 11:38:18 pm
I've disagreed before and I'll disagree again.  Within the space of a day Trump went from green lighting Turkey and calling Kurds fags who didn't help enough at Verdun to threatening the mother of all sanctions if Turkey didn't wise up.  The intervening event was Graham and some other dude introducing anti-Turkish, pro-Kurdish legislation in the Senate.


And then Trump reverse himself again declared that everything is hunky-dory.  What did Graham actually get?  The Kurds were forced out, Russian and Turkey made deal to end the fighting and divide up influence in Syria.  For his part, Trump declared that he had made a deal with no one else and then claimed to be moving soldiers to protect Assad's oil for some reason.  I have a feeling that nobody told Trump that you need to hold the end of a pipeline to get the oil not the beginning.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2019, 11:54:01 pm
Well no he didn't.  He hasn't gone back to badmouthing the Kurds, saying everyone has been fighting each other for thousands of years, or inventing connections between countries not taking back their ISIS fighters and a Turkish buffer zone.

You already know what Graham got.  What you're objecting to now is that the outcome is not optimal.  That's not the statement I originally objected to.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 17, 2019, 10:20:48 am
You already know what Graham got. 

Nothing of substance. Trump made a twitter threat, then Pence and Pompeo came in as a clean up crew with a deal that cemented the Kurdish sell-out with some attempted face saving rhetoric.

Raz's point is that all influence with Trump is illusory because his brain sieve causes anything you tell him to vanish within hours unless it accords with whatever he wanted to do anyways for his idiot reasons.  Every cabinet "adult" who thought they could play this influence game is now gone.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 17, 2019, 10:25:50 am
Well no he didn't.  He hasn't gone back to badmouthing the Kurds, saying everyone has been fighting each other for thousands of years, or inventing connections between countries not taking back their ISIS fighters and a Turkish buffer zone.

You already know what Graham got.  What you're objecting to now is that the outcome is not optimal.  That's not the statement I originally objected to.


No, I don't know what Graham got.  The problem was not that Trump said nasty things about Kurds, it was that Turkish forces were invading and murdering Kurds.  The Turks reached their objective and the fighting stopped.  They have their buffer zone. They are still there. And he invited Erdogan to come to Washington to show Republican Senators some loopy propaganda about how bad the Kurds are.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on November 17, 2019, 10:37:00 am
Are you guys really wondering why the Republicans have not turned on Trump? Isn't that obvious?

It isn't because they are afraid of him, and it isn't because they think they will get primaried. It isn't because they are slavishly loyal to him.

It is because they think at the end of the day he is right.

The only Republicans left after the Tea Party took over are those who actually believe that the Dems are trying to destroy America, and their party is more important than America, because their party IS America.

If you were the kind of Republican who put country over Party, you were purged long before Trump ever came along.

The Republican Party of today is a bigoted, intolerant, anti-science party of spite, intolerance, religious fanaticism and fear that white men are being replaced. That is all it is anymore. If you believe that, then you are perfectly correct to defend Trump no matter what, because no matter how terrible he is, he is still vastly preferable to the alternative.

There is nothing more to it than that. It really is just that simple.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on November 17, 2019, 10:42:00 am
Trump went to Walter Reed yesterday and hasn’t been seen since....  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on November 17, 2019, 11:12:36 am
Are you guys really wondering why the Republicans have not turned on Trump? Isn't that obvious?

It isn't because they are afraid of him, and it isn't because they think they will get primaried. It isn't because they are slavishly loyal to him.

It is because they think at the end of the day he is right.

The only Republicans left after the Tea Party took over are those who actually believe that the Dems are trying to destroy America, and their party is more important than America, because their party IS America.

If you were the kind of Republican who put country over Party, you were purged long before Trump ever came along.

The Republican Party of today is a bigoted, intolerant, anti-science party of spite, intolerance, religious fanaticism and fear that white men are being replaced. That is all it is anymore. If you believe that, then you are perfectly correct to defend Trump no matter what, because no matter how terrible he is, he is still vastly preferable to the alternative.

There is nothing more to it than that. It really is just that simple.

 :yes:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on November 17, 2019, 11:19:17 am
Are you saying that the only way Senate Republicans could really demonstrate juice is if they got a war with Turkey?

No.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on November 17, 2019, 01:32:51 pm
Are you guys really wondering why the Republicans have not turned on Trump? Isn't that obvious?

It isn't because they are afraid of him, and it isn't because they think they will get primaried. It isn't because they are slavishly loyal to him.

It is because they think at the end of the day he is right.

The only Republicans left after the Tea Party took over are those who actually believe that the Dems are trying to destroy America, and their party is more important than America, because their party IS America.

If you were the kind of Republican who put country over Party, you were purged long before Trump ever came along.

The Republican Party of today is a bigoted, intolerant, anti-science party of spite, intolerance, religious fanaticism and fear that white men are being replaced. That is all it is anymore. If you believe that, then you are perfectly correct to defend Trump no matter what, because no matter how terrible he is, he is still vastly preferable to the alternative.

There is nothing more to it than that. It really is just that simple.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 17, 2019, 08:12:57 pm
Nothing of substance. Trump made a twitter threat, then Pence and Pompeo came in as a clean up crew with a deal that cemented the Kurdish sell-out with some attempted face saving rhetoric.

Raz's point is that all influence with Trump is illusory because his brain sieve causes anything you tell him to vanish within hours unless it accords with whatever he wanted to do anyways for his idiot reasons.  Every cabinet "adult" who thought they could play this influence game is now gone.

Which one is it Joan, did Trump change course in a nonsubstantive way because of Graham, or did he do it for his own idiotic reasons?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 18, 2019, 02:31:22 am
The only substantive change was going from passively backing the Kurds to actively betraying them; I have no reason to believe Graham contributed to that. I don't know exactly what prompted the twitter threat - my guess would be very negative press from sources that usually back him. He does seem to like threatening economic sanctions against other countries - he previously made a very similar threat against Turkey over Brunson.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 19, 2019, 11:48:10 pm
Seemed like a bad day for Trump.

Even the GOP witnesses all said Trump's actions were inappropriate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on November 20, 2019, 10:25:47 am
Trump's defenders are now attacking Sondland as a member of the Deep State and as a reason for Trump being elected in the first place.

Sondland donated $1m to Trump's 2016 campaign. He was appointed by Trump.

They really do have complete contempt for their audience.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on November 20, 2019, 10:34:57 am
Trump's defenders are now attacking Sondland as a member of the Deep State and as a reason for Trump being elected in the first place.

Sondland donated $1m to Trump's 2016 campaign. He was appointed by Trump.

They really do have complete contempt for their audience.
To be fair, their intended audience has a complete contempt for itself.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: PRC on November 20, 2019, 10:39:12 am
It’s striking how different the narrative about this event is on Fox News vs. the other mainstream channels.  If all you’re digesting is Fox you really might believe that this was a Democrat scam.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 20, 2019, 10:57:02 am
Trump's defenders are now attacking Sondland as a member of the Deep State and as a reason for Trump being elected in the first place.

Sondland donated $1m to Trump's 2016 campaign. He was appointed by Trump.

They really do have complete contempt for their audience.


Yeah, I was a bit surprised with the defense of "Don't actually watch it, it's boring, just have faith in your President".

Nudnik seems to be saying that because Ukrainians said negative things about Trump in 2016, Trump was right to shake them down.  We are increasingly reaching a point where criticizing the President is tantamount to treason.  The central narrative that the Democrats hacked their own server and then hid it in war-torn Ukraine has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on November 20, 2019, 11:24:40 am
Pompeo is resigning https://www.yahoo.com/news/mike-pompeo-planning-resign-because-093230187.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on November 20, 2019, 11:24:54 am
Trump is done.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on November 20, 2019, 11:26:25 am
Pompeo is resigning https://www.yahoo.com/news/mike-pompeo-planning-resign-because-093230187.html

Ahem, currently just reporting that he is planning to resign. Not confirmed. ;)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on November 20, 2019, 11:26:44 am
Pompeo is resigning https://www.yahoo.com/news/mike-pompeo-planning-resign-because-093230187.html

Ahem, currently just reporting that he is planning to resign. Not confirmed. ;)

Details, details.  ;)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 20, 2019, 11:38:43 am
Trump is done.

He's been reported as being over, finished, "done" so many times, going back not only to the start of his campaign in 2015, but back to his early 90s bankruptcies and divorce...

I'll believe he's done when officially out of the Whitehouse, and not one moment sooner.  Even then he'll still probably haunt the world in one way or another.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 20, 2019, 11:42:58 am
Trump is done.


Yeah, I don't see that as happening.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 11:43:44 am
It's certainly encouraging.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on November 20, 2019, 11:48:47 am
He's not done until the Senate turns, or he decides to take the "resign and pardon by Pence" route.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 20, 2019, 12:12:40 pm
Weren’t there loads of rumours he was planning to run for Senate anyway? Made an unusual number of trips to Kansas for a Secretary of State.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 20, 2019, 12:14:24 pm
Weren’t there loads of rumours he was planning to run for Senate anyway? Made an unusual number of trips to Kansas for a Secretary of State.

Pompeo?  Yes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 12:22:52 pm
I wish we had some information on the decision-making to finally release the aid to Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 20, 2019, 12:23:58 pm
I wish we had some information on the decision-making to finally release the aid to Ukraine.

The money was released after the whistleblower complaint was made public.  How much more do we need to know?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 12:27:32 pm
The money was released after the whistleblower complaint was made public.  How much more do we need to know?

A paper trail would be nice.  Cuppa two tree staffers saying "yeah it was released because we got caught" under oath.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 20, 2019, 12:34:56 pm
The money was released after the whistleblower complaint was made public.  How much more do we need to know?

A paper trail would be nice.  Cuppa two tree staffers saying "yeah it was released because we got caught" under oath.

It would be nice.  But does the absence of such evidence really change things?

I had a case a couple months ago about a fellow who switched price tags on a very expensive violin (he put the tag of a beginner violin on instead).  There was a crimestopper tip publicized in the media.  This led to a tip about the identity of my Accused, but it also led to the violin being anonymously returned to police.

At trial Accused took the stand to admit buying the violin, but denied switching tags.  He admitted to returning the violin anonymously.  Returning the violin though was absolutely damning to the trial judge.

Sure, getting my violin fraudster to admit to the fraud would have been nice - but the evidence speaks for itself quite clearly.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on November 20, 2019, 12:37:45 pm
"Res ipsa loquitur".  ;)

But in reality - just very powerful circumstantial evidence.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 12:41:49 pm
It would be nice.  But does the absence of such evidence really change things?

I had a case a couple months ago about a fellow who switched price tags on a very expensive violin (he put the tag of a beginner violin on instead).  There was a crimestopper tip publicized in the media.  This led to a tip about the identity of my Accused, but it also led to the violin being anonymously returned to police.

At trial Accused took the stand to admit buying the violin, but denied switching tags.  He admitted to returning the violin anonymously.  Returning the violin though was absolutely damning to the trial judge.

Sure, getting my violin fraudster to admit to the fraud would have been nice - but the evidence speaks for itself quite clearly.

At present a Republican talking point is that since the money got released and there was no announcement of an investigation by Ukraine, there was no quid pro quo.  I don't see that argument being rebutted by anyone publicly. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 20, 2019, 12:45:34 pm
The money was released after the whistleblower complaint was made public.  How much more do we need to know?

A paper trail would be nice.  Cuppa two tree staffers saying "yeah it was released because we got caught" under oath.


Yeah, that's why Trump is forbidding people in his administration with complying with legal subpoenas.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 20, 2019, 12:50:27 pm
At present a Republican talking point is that since the money got released and there was no announcement of an investigation by Ukraine, there was no quid pro quo.  I don't see that argument being rebutted by anyone publicly.

It's a stupid talking point.

We have evidence under oath that Trump asked for a quid pro quo from Ukraine with respect to the aid.  It's a matter of public record that after news of this was made public, the aid was released without any further explanation.

Contrary to the Sideshow Bobs of the world, an attempted crime is still a crime.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on November 20, 2019, 12:58:33 pm

At present a Republican talking point is that since the money got released and there was no announcement of an investigation by Ukraine, there was no quid pro quo.  I don't see that argument being rebutted by anyone publicly.

The eventual release of the money and lack of announced investigation is irrelevant. The story broke before Ukraine made up its mind whether to accept the offer, and it became impossible for Ukraine to announce it afterwards. The money was returned after the story broke and the natural inference is that it was a reaction to the story breaking.

It's the equivalent of a shoplifter quickly pulling the goods out of his pants and putting them back on the shelf after the security guard grabs them by the collar, then claiming no crime was committed. 

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 01:01:08 pm
The eventual release of the money and lack of announced investigation is irrelevant. The story broke before Ukraine made up its mind whether to accept the offer, and it became impossible for Ukraine to announce it afterwards. The money was returned after the story broke and the natural inference is that it was a reaction to the story breaking.

It's the equivalent of a shoplifter quickly pulling the goods out of his pants and putting them back on the shelf after the security guard grabs them by the collar, then claiming no crime was committed.

And that makes you confident the American public understands those facts?

You're talking as if I'm the one that needs convincing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on November 20, 2019, 01:12:19 pm
The eventual release of the money and lack of announced investigation is irrelevant. The story broke before Ukraine made up its mind whether to accept the offer, and it became impossible for Ukraine to announce it afterwards. The money was returned after the story broke and the natural inference is that it was a reaction to the story breaking.

It's the equivalent of a shoplifter quickly pulling the goods out of his pants and putting them back on the shelf after the security guard grabs them by the collar, then claiming no crime was committed.

And that makes you confident the American public understands those facts?

You're talking as if I'm the one that needs convincing.

I don't think there is any talking points or really anything else that can enlighten the Trump-supporting American public as a collective entity. Trump could publicly announce he eats babies and his base would still support him.

I'm merely pointing out that, for anyone who thinks a bit, the Republican talking points you mentioned are not at all convincing. Unfortunately, that description doesn't appear to apply to Trump supporters.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on November 20, 2019, 01:22:28 pm
I am not aware of any Republican who gives even a single fuck about truth and reason.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 01:40:42 pm
I don't think there is any talking points or really anything else that can enlighten the Trump-supporting American public as a collective entity. Trump could publicly announce he eats babies and his base would still support him.

I'm merely pointing out that, for anyone who thinks a bit, the Republican talking points you mentioned are not at all convincing. Unfortunately, that description doesn't appear to apply to Trump supporters.

You answered my question about the American public by discussing Trump supporters.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 20, 2019, 02:15:06 pm
The money was released after the whistleblower complaint was made public.  How much more do we need to know?

A paper trail would be nice.  Cuppa two tree staffers saying "yeah it was released because we got caught" under oath.
I'm not convinced there's much formal decision making process in this administration.

Quote
At present a Republican talking point is that since the money got released and there was no announcement of an investigation by Ukraine, there was no quid pro quo.  I don't see that argument being rebutted by anyone publicly. 
Yeah. But, you know, getting caught isn't a defence.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on November 20, 2019, 02:18:07 pm

You answered my question about the American public by discussing Trump supporters.

For those who are not Trump supporters, the Republican talking points will presumably be unpersuasive because the defence they offer is on its face dumb.

I think most of the public, who are not blinded by partisanship, understand that a crime is bad, even if the criminal act doesn't come to fruition. If not, America is really in trouble.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 02:40:59 pm
Yeah. But, you know, getting caught isn't a defence.

Yes, I know.  Geez.  I raise a question about the Democratic media strategy and you, like Malthus, feel the need to enlighten me personally.

I understand we have a number of frustrated press secretaries here on Languish, but how about some recognition that you're missing my point?  Why isn't someone on the Democratic side delivering these catchy one liners and pithy Latin phrases to the American public?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 20, 2019, 02:57:32 pm
Yes, I know.  Geez.  I raise a question about the Democratic media strategy and you, like Malthus, feel the need to enlighten me personally.

I understand we have a number of frustrated press secretaries here on Languish, but how about some recognition that you're missing my point?  Why isn't someone on the Democratic side delivering these catchy one liners and pithy Latin phrases to the American public?
Oh okay. My argument would that the Republicans are pushing a line because they're on the defensive and not in control of what happens next.

They're in control of the timetable. So far every day of hearings has been bad for Trump and every witness has been bad. I'd let that keep going day-after-day. Don't get into an argument with Republicans. Just say "that's what you say about Ambassador x. Now we move to Lt Col y."

My view is don't get in the way of these witnesses who are people who viewers are more likely to trust (to the extent they trust anyone in the establishment). Then when the Republicans have the impetus you can move to counter-punching. At the minute Democrats are controlling the narrative I think it would be a mistake to let that slip/or distract from it by doing the running commentary stuff - at this stage.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on November 20, 2019, 03:05:13 pm
Yeah. But, you know, getting caught isn't a defence.

Yes, I know.  Geez.  I raise a question about the Democratic media strategy and you, like Malthus, feel the need to enlighten me personally.

I understand we have a number of frustrated press secretaries here on Languish, but how about some recognition that you're missing my point?  Why isn't someone on the Democratic side delivering these catchy one liners and pithy Latin phrases to the American public?

Perhaps they are using the strategy of not interrupting an opponent when they are busy digging the hole deeper.

Mind you, that may not be a good strategy. It depends on a public able to recognize holes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2019, 03:35:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAai5ZK9BbQ

Lively exchange between Dem NY and Sondland.

"You're no Jack Kennedy" moment when Maloney makes the comment about Sondland's correction/retraction.

At 2:22 is a brilliant moment IMO.  Sondland says Ukraine was "in a terrible position," and you can see his brain short circuiting as he realizes he now has to explain why it was a terrible position.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on November 20, 2019, 09:43:12 pm
[CdM]

Good to hear Zbigniew Brzezinski quoted in the hearings today.

[/CdM]
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2019, 09:13:57 am
The eventual release of the money and lack of announced investigation is irrelevant. The story broke before Ukraine made up its mind whether to accept the offer, and it became impossible for Ukraine to announce it afterwards. The money was returned after the story broke and the natural inference is that it was a reaction to the story breaking.

It's the equivalent of a shoplifter quickly pulling the goods out of his pants and putting them back on the shelf after the security guard grabs them by the collar, then claiming no crime was committed.

And that makes you confident the American public understands those facts?

I'm not confident, but I've seen Democratic talking heads going out making these points.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on November 21, 2019, 09:16:01 am
The more I see of the Impeachment inquiry the sadder I feel for all of Devin Nune's livestock, not just his cow.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2019, 09:17:20 am
Yes, I know.  Geez.  I raise a question about the Democratic media strategy and you, like Malthus, feel the need to enlighten me personally.

I understand we have a number of frustrated press secretaries here on Languish, but how about some recognition that you're missing my point?  Why isn't someone on the Democratic side delivering these catchy one liners and pithy Latin phrases to the American public?
Oh okay. My argument would that the Republicans are pushing a line because they're on the defensive and not in control of what happens next.

They're in control of the timetable. So far every day of hearings has been bad for Trump and every witness has been bad. I'd let that keep going day-after-day. Don't get into an argument with Republicans. Just say "that's what you say about Ambassador x. Now we move to Lt Col y."

My view is don't get in the way of these witnesses who are people who viewers are more likely to trust (to the extent they trust anyone in the establishment). Then when the Republicans have the impetus you can move to counter-punching. At the minute Democrats are controlling the narrative I think it would be a mistake to let that slip/or distract from it by doing the running commentary stuff - at this stage.

Question though is how many people are actually watching the witnesses testify?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 21, 2019, 10:28:36 am
Question for Languish Lawyers who do trials:  Are jurors typically capable able to understand this type of thing?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2019, 10:36:48 am
Question for Languish Lawyers who do trials:  Are jurors typically capable able to understand this type of thing.

For the most part, yes - but jurors are placed right in front of witnesses testifying live with nothing to do other than listen to them.  The process of empaneling and seating jurors is also surrounded by formalities all of which reinforce the importance and seriousness of the task.  It's a very different experience from a normal harried adult catching pieces of stuff on cable news or skimming some headlines.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on November 21, 2019, 01:12:47 pm
Question for Languish Lawyers who do trials:  Are jurors typically capable able to understand this type of thing.

For the most part, yes - but jurors are placed right in front of witnesses testifying live with nothing to do other than listen to them.  The process of empaneling and seating jurors is also surrounded by formalities all of which reinforce the importance and seriousness of the task.  It's a very different experience from a normal harried adult catching pieces of stuff on cable news or skimming some headlines.

Yeah, when I served on jury duty last year, we listened to dozens of hours of testimony that probably would have been summarized in 2 or 3 lines in a news report.  What you see and hear on jury duty is a lot more detailed than what you hear or read in the media.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2019, 01:50:19 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czMbcyTdWyA

Didn't know Fiona Hill is a Brit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 21, 2019, 02:10:49 pm
From Tyr’s neck of the wood too :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2019, 02:16:50 pm
Ah, so fleeing the Great Thatcher Coal Famine.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 21, 2019, 02:32:08 pm
:lol:

You’re not far wrong. Daughter of a coal miner who said this today - which is true and sad:
“Years later, I can say with confidence that this country has offered for me opportunities I never would have had in England,” Hill testified. “I grew up poor with a very distinctive working-class accent.”
“In England in the 1980s and 1990s, this would have impeded my professional advancement. This background has never set me back in America. For the better part of three decades, I have built a career as a nonpartisan, nonpolitical national security professional focusing on Europe and Eurasia and especially the former Soviet Union.”
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on November 21, 2019, 02:45:44 pm
Question for Languish Lawyers who do trials:  Are jurors typically capable able to understand this type of thing.

For the most part, yes - but jurors are placed right in front of witnesses testifying live with nothing to do other than listen to them.  The process of empaneling and seating jurors is also surrounded by formalities all of which reinforce the importance and seriousness of the task.  It's a very different experience from a normal harried adult catching pieces of stuff on cable news or skimming some headlines.

Yeah, when I served on jury duty last year, we listened to dozens of hours of testimony that probably would have been summarized in 2 or 3 lines in a news report.  What you see and hear on jury duty is a lot more detailed than what you hear or read in the media.

 :cool:

I'd certainly like to do jury service if that was the attitude of most jurors.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 21, 2019, 02:49:52 pm
Question though is how many people are actually watching the witnesses testify?
Oh - God, no-one. It's like cable news, very few normal folk will be watching this (though it would be interesting to see if it does get viewers).

But I think the witnesses will be the evening news clips, the headlines caught on the front-page and all the other diffuse ways people consume news. With evidence like this I think the old line is true - if you're explaining, you're losing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2019, 01:50:53 pm
Schiff and Pelosi need to adjourn the impeachment hearings until the additional key witnesses can appear - i.e. Mulvaney, Vaught and Duffey from OMB, Rudy, and until they receive the full documentation over the aid hold.

Then pursue the enforcement of the subpoenas while at the same time pushing the talking points in media that the President is abusing executive privilege claims to conceal evidence and that if he is really as innocent as he claims, he should the first one showing the documents that prove it and demanding these witnesses to come in to clear his name

Any other course of action IMO would be defeatist and a strategic blunder.

Pelosi just seems to want this over before the primaries happen - I think she views the impeachment as a sop to the base that is inevitably doomed in the Senate. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on November 22, 2019, 02:37:29 pm
Schiff and Pelosi need to adjourn the impeachment hearings until the additional key witnesses can appear - i.e. Mulvaney, Vaught and Duffey from OMB, Rudy, and until they receive the full documentation over the aid hold.

Then pursue the enforcement of the subpoenas while at the same time pushing the talking points in media that the President is abusing executive privilege claims to conceal evidence and that if he is really as innocent as he claims, he should the first one showing the documents that prove it and demanding these witnesses to come in to clear his name

Any other course of action IMO would be defeatist and a strategic blunder.

Pelosi just seems to want this over before the primaries happen - I think she views the impeachment as a sop to the base that is inevitably doomed in the Senate.

Pelosi isn't necessarily wrong though.  I always felt you'd need to see the public move pretty decisively against Trump in order for the Senate to convict, and that just hasn't happened even after 2 weeks of impeachment hearings.

Trump has promised to fight every document request and every subpoena.  In order to fight for those witnesses how long would it take to get a definitive ruling?  It's hard to see them getting such a ruling before the next election.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on November 22, 2019, 02:45:21 pm
Pelosi isn't necessarily wrong though.  I always felt you'd need to see the public move pretty decisively against Trump in order for the Senate to convict, and that just hasn't happened even after 2 weeks of impeachment hearings.

Trump has promised to fight every document request and every subpoena.  In order to fight for those witnesses how long would it take to get a definitive ruling?  It's hard to see them getting such a ruling before the next election.

I don't see why that matters.  If there isn't a fight for documentation and the impeachment just gives up then the imperial presidency is in full force.  There's really nothing that can be done if the presidency is allowed to ignore the Legislature whenever it wants.  Even beyond whether the impeachment/removal is successful it's a terrible precedent.  I'd much rather it be shown that the executive must follow subpoenas and requests from the house/senate even if the impeachment crashes and burns.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 22, 2019, 03:16:52 pm
I don't see how more evidence would make a difference.  We already have a confession, actually we have two confessions.  One by Mulvaney and one by Sondland.  If that doesn't move the needle, what would?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2019, 03:22:10 pm
The point is prevent the Senators voting against from hiding under some mealy-mouthed excuses like "hearsay" or not sufficient evidence to convict.  Force them to admit they are giving the President a pass on conduct that is objectively inexcusable.  The other point is to expose the wrongdoing of officials who aided and abetted Trump.

If you don't expect to Senate to convict there really isn't any point in rushing the matter.

The Trumpists will bitch about it dragging on but the easy comeback is that Trump could put it stop to it by anytime by clearing his officials to testify as opposed to abusing legal process to conceal evidence.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2019, 03:25:58 pm
I don't see how more evidence would make a difference.  We already have a confession, actually we have two confessions.  One by Mulvaney and one by Sondland.  If that doesn't move the needle, what would?

Sondland testified the meeting was linked to the Biden attack but couldn't definitively verify the tie to the military aid hold.
Mulvaney admitted the linkage to the aid hold but then tried to take it back.  Lying maggot needs to be put under oath and penalty of perjury.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on November 22, 2019, 07:52:31 pm
I always felt you'd need to see the public move pretty decisively against Trump in order for the Senate to convict, and that just hasn't happened even after 2 weeks of impeachment hearings.

According to MSN, public opinion has actually moved against impeachment since the hearings began.  And that change has mainly been among independents.

Quote
Trump has promised to fight every document request and every subpoena.  In order to fight for those witnesses how long would it take to get a definitive ruling?  It's hard to see them getting such a ruling before the next election.

It will be a long process, even if it drags out past the election.  As frunk suggests, it's important to get a definitive ruling the President isn't entitled to the level of privilege that Trump is claiming, not just as a restraint on Trump, but as a restraint on future Presidents.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 22, 2019, 10:55:21 pm
They're all complicit

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/nunes-vienna-trip-ukrainian-prosecutor-biden/index.html

Quote
(CNN)A lawyer for an indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani tells CNN that his client is willing to tell Congress about meetings the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee had in Vienna last year with a former Ukrainian prosecutor to discuss digging up dirt on Joe Biden.

The attorney, Joseph A. Bondy, represents Lev Parnas, the recently indicted Soviet-born American who worked with Giuliani to push claims of Democratic corruption in Ukraine. Bondy said that Parnas was told directly by the former Ukrainian official that he met last year in Vienna with Rep. Devin Nunes.

"Mr. Parnas learned from former Ukrainian Prosecutor General Victor Shokin that Nunes had met with Shokin in Vienna last December," said Bondy.
Shokin was ousted from his position in 2016 after pressure from Western leaders, including then-vice president Biden, over concerns that Shokin was not pursuing corruption cases.

Nunes is one of President Donald Trump's key allies in Congress and has emerged as a staunch defender of the President during the impeachment inquiry, which he has frequently labeled as a "circus." Nunes declined repeated requests for comment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on November 23, 2019, 03:54:01 am
  As frunk suggests, it's important to get a definitive ruling the President isn't entitled to the level of privilege that Trump is claiming, not just as a restraint on Trump, but as a restraint on future Presidents.

Whatever happens with the impeachment, the lesson from all this is that the POTUS can run absolutely wild and take huge dumps on everything for years before there's any reaction. The "POTUS is bound by stuff" train has left the station a long time ago.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on November 23, 2019, 04:03:36 am
"Yeah, see Benghazi, Fast & Furious etc." - GOP, probably.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on November 23, 2019, 07:01:24 am
I'm with JR on this.  The Democrats need to get the Trump administration dangling on legal technicalities over whether the House can get testimony on, for instance, who ordered the aid cutoff, when, and why, and who ordered it restored, and why.  People in OMB know this, but Trump won't let them testify, even as it used the lack of such testimony to impugn the impeachment process.  Issue the subpoenas, take it to court, and let Trump try to deny he is a pugfucker.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 23, 2019, 07:03:56 am
Pelosi isn't necessarily wrong though.  I always felt you'd need to see the public move pretty decisively against Trump in order for the Senate to convict, and that just hasn't happened even after 2 weeks of impeachment hearings.

Trump has promised to fight every document request and every subpoena.  In order to fight for those witnesses how long would it take to get a definitive ruling?  It's hard to see them getting such a ruling before the next election.
I agree with MM. But I think expecting a substantial swing in public opinion following two weeks of hearings is ambitious.

There was some interesting polling by FiveThirtyEight and Ipsos, because the views on impeachment have basically been steady since the story came out, with minor fluctuations. But there is a small majority in the polls that he committed an impeachable offence, even if people don't support impeachment.

What's interesting is the poll on the individual elements. People generally believe that he asked Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. Democrats think it's inappropriate and impeachable, Republicans think it's neither.

But fewer people believe the other two elements that Trump withheld aid over this and then tried to cover it up. Democrats believe both, think both are in appropriate and impeachable. Republicans don't believe either, think both are inappropriate but neither is impeachable. I think that those are the elements that need to be more demonstrated and that involves the decision making in Washington more than the Ambassadors etc.

I think they can say they've done as much of the Ukraine-focused bit of their investigation and now need to turn to what was being done in Washington.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 23, 2019, 08:11:13 am
One of those Russian gangsters that have been working with Guiliani.  Is apparently willing to testify that David Nunes traveled to Vienna as part of this Anti-Biden scheme.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on November 23, 2019, 10:21:12 am
Pelosi isn't necessarily wrong though.  I always felt you'd need to see the public move pretty decisively against Trump in order for the Senate to convict, and that just hasn't happened even after 2 weeks of impeachment hearings.

Trump has promised to fight every document request and every subpoena.  In order to fight for those witnesses how long would it take to get a definitive ruling?  It's hard to see them getting such a ruling before the next election.
I agree with MM. But I think expecting a substantial swing in public opinion following two weeks of hearings is ambitious.

There was some interesting polling by FiveThirtyEight and Ipsos, because the views on impeachment have basically been steady since the story came out, with minor fluctuations. But there is a small majority in the polls that he committed an impeachable offence, even if people don't support impeachment.

What's interesting is the poll on the individual elements. People generally believe that he asked Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. Democrats think it's inappropriate and impeachable, Republicans think it's neither.

But fewer people believe the other two elements that Trump withheld aid over this and then tried to cover it up. Democrats believe both, think both are in appropriate and impeachable. Republicans don't believe either, think both are inappropriate but neither is impeachable. I think that those are the elements that need to be more demonstrated and that involves the decision making in Washington more than the Ambassadors etc.

I think they can say they've done as much of the Ukraine-focused bit of their investigation and now need to turn to what was being done in Washington.

I think this is a pretty good take on this.

And for the record:

Asking the Ukraine to investigate the Bidens:  questionably inappropriate, but not impeachable.  And what makes asking questionable isn't asking them to investigate per se, but the motivation for asking.

Withholding aid:  inappropriate, but not impeachable, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Covering up what happened:  flat out impeachable;  it's straight-up obstruction of justice.  And yes I believe Trump tried (well, is still trying, just without much success) to cover it up.  Which actually makes the other 2 elements seem worse, because if you don't think you did anything wrong, why try to cover it up?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 23, 2019, 10:55:12 am
Blackmailing a foreign country to use it's criminal justice system to investigate, charge, and imprison family member of your political opponents seems fairly impeachable to me.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on November 23, 2019, 11:52:02 am
Withholding aid granted by law for personal gain is a violation of the oath of office.  That's impeachable.  In fact, that's pretty much the definition of "impeachable."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 23, 2019, 07:10:09 pm
They're all complicit

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/nunes-vienna-trip-ukrainian-prosecutor-biden/index.html (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/nunes-vienna-trip-ukrainian-prosecutor-biden/index.html)

Quote
(CNN)A lawyer for an indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani tells CNN that his client is willing to tell Congress about meetings the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee had in Vienna last year with a former Ukrainian prosecutor to discuss digging up dirt on Joe Biden.

The attorney, Joseph A. Bondy, represents Lev Parnas, the recently indicted Soviet-born American who worked with Giuliani to push claims of Democratic corruption in Ukraine. Bondy said that Parnas was told directly by the former Ukrainian official that he met last year in Vienna with Rep. Devin Nunes.

"Mr. Parnas learned from former Ukrainian Prosecutor General Victor Shokin that Nunes had met with Shokin in Vienna last December," said Bondy.
Shokin was ousted from his position in 2016 after pressure from Western leaders, including then-vice president Biden, over concerns that Shokin was not pursuing corruption cases.

Nunes is one of President Donald Trump's key allies in Congress and has emerged as a staunch defender of the President during the impeachment inquiry, which he has frequently labeled as a "circus." Nunes declined repeated requests for comment.


Sorry, didn't see you posted this first.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on November 23, 2019, 07:12:38 pm
"Yeah, see Benghazi, Fast & Furious etc." - GOP, probably.

And they investigated those things, did they not? Well maybe not Fast & Furious, I was not aware making shitty movies was a crime.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on November 23, 2019, 07:13:05 pm
Withholding aid granted by law for personal gain is a violation of the oath of office.  That's impeachable.  In fact, that's pretty much the definition of "impeachable."

Yep. If that is not an impeachable offense and an abuse of office I don't know what is.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2019, 09:49:48 pm
One other fact I think the Democrats have done a poor job of conveying to the American public is that Shokin was in fact impeding the investigation of corruption at Burisma.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2019, 10:00:24 am
In fact, that's pretty much the definition of "impeachable."

But there's  no fellatio mentioned anywhere.  :huh:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Solmyr on November 24, 2019, 10:03:59 am
In fact, that's pretty much the definition of "impeachable."

But there's  no fellatio mentioned anywhere.  :huh:

Well, Zelinsky does love Trump's ass.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on November 24, 2019, 10:56:55 am
From Tyr’s neck of the wood too :)

Never heard of her
But a glance at her Wikipedia and :wub:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2019, 05:41:11 pm
I'm hoping these tapes are wild

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/house-intelligence-committee-possession-video-audio-recordings-giuliani/story?id=67276448

Quote
The House Intelligence Committee is in possession of audio and video recordings and photographs provided to the committee by Lev Parnas, an associate of President Donald Trump’s personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, who reportedly played a key role in assisting him in his efforts to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and Ukraine, multiple sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News.

The material submitted to the committee includes audio, video and photos that include Giuliani and Trump. It was unclear what the content depicts and the committees only began accessing the material last week.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2019, 09:45:14 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Solmyr on November 25, 2019, 04:46:57 am
Maybe they include Giuliani peeing all over Trump?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2019, 08:09:20 am
I wonder if any tape would change the mind of the Trump faithful, no matter what it shows.  If he's on tape chatting with Putin discussing the dismantling of the next US institution, he's just engaging in unconventional diplomacy to drain the swamp.  If he's on tape mocking his faithful supporters as total retards, they'll just say he's very perceptive.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on November 26, 2019, 01:04:04 am
I was not aware making shitty movies was a crime.
:bash: :angry: :thumbsdown: :blurgh: the first and 4th one are still great movies.  The 5th one is really amusing.  I will not dispute your statement as to the rest of the lot, but I do not appreciate that kind of over-generalization, Sir!!:P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Duque de Bragança on November 26, 2019, 04:26:42 am
I was not aware making shitty movies was a crime.
:bash: :angry: :thumbsdown: :blurgh: the first and 4th one are still great movies.  The 5th one is really amusing.  I will not dispute your statement as to the rest of the lot, but I do not appreciate that kind of over-generalization, Sir!!:P

Bad omen for Fast and Furious movies: Viper likes them!  :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on November 26, 2019, 03:05:14 pm
I think this is a pretty good take on this.

And for the record:

Asking the Ukraine to investigate the Bidens:  questionably inappropriate, but not impeachable.  And what makes asking questionable isn't asking them to investigate per se, but the motivation for asking.

Withholding aid:  inappropriate, but not impeachable, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Covering up what happened:  flat out impeachable;  it's straight-up obstruction of justice.  And yes I believe Trump tried (well, is still trying, just without much success) to cover it up.  Which actually makes the other 2 elements seem worse, because if you don't think you did anything wrong, why try to cover it up?
My view, probably unsurprisingly, is this is all impeachable.

I think given the extreme level of power executives have in dealing with foreign policy it's an area where they shouldn't bring domestic politics. That's the price of deference.

Incidentally the CNN poll is interesting. It feels like, like everything else with Trump, it's just flatlining on both sides. But the gender gap on impeachment is really striking.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2019, 04:22:10 pm
Withholding aid granted by law for personal gain is a violation of the oath of office.  That's impeachable.  In fact, that's pretty much the definition of "impeachable."

There President has very few unambiguous constitutional obligations, taking "care that the laws be faithfully executed" is one of them.
Not every failure of that obligation is impeachable - when the framers rejected "maladministration" as an impeachment standard, they effectively excused negligent failures.
But a deliberate frustration of the law for an improper motivation is another story.
The President illegally waylaid hundreds of millions of taxpayer money as part of scheme to extort a foreign leader into attacking a US political adversary with a fraudulent criminal investigation. That's impeachable no question.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 26, 2019, 05:48:34 pm
If the Senate does not vote to remove then it's not impeachable.  If it's not impeachable then Congress should start sending letters to Panama, Indonesia, and any other country that Trump has business in.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on November 26, 2019, 07:14:24 pm
If the Senate does not vote to remove then it's not impeachable.  If it's not impeachable then Congress should start sending letters to Panama, Indonesia, and any other country that Trump has business in.
You think they'll impeach him?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on November 26, 2019, 10:25:08 pm
If the Senate does not vote to remove then it's not impeachable.  If it's not impeachable then Congress should start sending letters to Panama, Indonesia, and any other country that Trump has business in.
You think they'll impeach him?


Yeah.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 27, 2019, 12:17:25 am
If the Senate does not vote to remove then it's not impeachable.  If it's not impeachable then Congress should start sending letters to Panama, Indonesia, and any other country that Trump has business in.
You think they'll impeach him?
100% the House will vote to impeach.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on November 27, 2019, 09:07:11 am
Incidentally the CNN poll is interesting. It feels like, like everything else with Trump, it's just flatlining on both sides.

Yeah.

Yet another overhyped dud from the Democrats. McConnell can then use the Senate circus to put the Bidens on trial and tie up Bernie, Harris and Warren for months in DC when they should be on the stump.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on November 27, 2019, 01:05:59 pm
Incidentally the CNN poll is interesting. It feels like, like everything else with Trump, it's just flatlining on both sides.

Yeah.

Yet another overhyped dud from the Democrats. McConnell can then use the Senate circus to put the Bidens on trial and tie up Bernie, Harris and Warren for months in DC when they should be on the stump.

Are you having a stroke?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 27, 2019, 02:24:19 pm
Why on earth would Mitch schedule "months" for an impeachment trial - that would be insane?

The threat against the Bidens isn't very credible because there is no evidence against them.  What is there to do?

A Senate impeachment trial isn't exactly analogous to a federal criminal trial but the procedures are somewhat similar. You can't just fling shit around like they do on Fox News.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on November 27, 2019, 05:37:28 pm
Why on earth would Mitch schedule "months" for an impeachment trial - that would be insane?

The threat against the Bidens isn't very credible because there is no evidence against them.  What is there to do?

A Senate impeachment trial isn't exactly analogous to a federal criminal trial but the procedures are somewhat similar. You can't just fling shit around like they do on Fox News.

I don't even know how Moscow Mitch could even "schedule" months of impeachment trial.  The case managers are going to be Democrats from the House, and their case will drive the timeline of the schedule.  Neither would the Democratic case managers have any ability (even had they the desire) to "put the Bidens on trial" since the trial will be over the articles of impeachment, not the fantasy of the Trumpeters.

I think just thinking about the impeachment proceedings is giving Trumpeters strokes, because they can see what is going to happen to their by when administration people start testifying under oath.  This is the true Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on November 27, 2019, 06:10:15 pm
He's "The Chosen One".
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on November 28, 2019, 01:12:30 am
So, Trump has been invited to testify or to question witnesses in the House by the Dems.

I wonder if he'll try to lie under oath?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Maladict on November 28, 2019, 02:41:02 am

I wonder if he'll try to lie under oath?

I wonder when he'll start throwing his own family under the bus to save himself.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 02, 2019, 07:10:58 pm
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/02/784183484/read-republican-report-on-the-impeachment-inquiry

Full text of House Republican impeachment report.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on December 02, 2019, 07:33:52 pm
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/02/784183484/read-republican-report-on-the-impeachment-inquiry

Full text of House Republican impeachment report.
Executive summary?  Do they think Trump did good or bad?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 02, 2019, 07:37:12 pm
Executive summary?

Kitchen sink.  They seem to be pinning a lot on the fact that Trump didn't explicitly say during Teh Call "if you do this I will release the aid."

Read the executive summary in the link.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 03, 2019, 12:11:45 am
Kitchen sink.  They seem to be pinning a lot on the fact that Trump didn't explicitly say during Teh Call "if you do this I will release the aid."

Read the executive summary in the link.

On that theory most convicted mob bosses would have to be freed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on December 03, 2019, 01:14:44 am
Yeah that standard is absurdly high, and frankly I am not completely confident that even if the President did indeed state it explicitly that they would then support impeachment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on December 03, 2019, 01:46:02 am
I reckon the only way he will be found guilty is if electoral support starts to wither. The question is thus how many republican supporters are sufficiently disgusted with his behaviour to change their vote or not vote?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on December 03, 2019, 07:38:19 am
Yeah that standard is absurdly high, and frankly I am not completely confident that even if the President did indeed state it explicitly that they would then support impeachment.

The ground would then shift to the alternative argument: everyone does it, so it's no big deal.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 03, 2019, 10:18:34 am
The House Minority Report is an astonishing document; it repeats anti-Ukraine talking points that are part of the Russian information warfare campaign.  The Republican House caucus has allowed itself to serve as an arm of a Russian intelligence operation.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on December 03, 2019, 11:44:21 am
The House Minority Report is an astonishing document; it repeats anti-Ukraine talking points that are part of the Russian information warfare campaign.  The Republican House caucus has allowed itself to serve as an arm of a Russian intelligence operation.

Well they're Republicans aren't they?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2019, 05:58:45 pm
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/03/782759563/read-impeachment-inquiry-report-by-house-intelligence-committee

Schiff's impeachment report.  Not nearly as entertaining as the Republican report.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: katmai on December 03, 2019, 07:13:09 pm
 :bleeding:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 03, 2019, 11:53:04 pm
Schiff's impeachment report.  Not nearly as entertaining as the Republican report.

No surprise.  Non-fiction is often drier than fiction.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2019, 12:27:05 pm
The constitutional scholars are actually interesting to watch.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on December 04, 2019, 02:04:46 pm
The constitutional scholars are actually interesting to watch.

T&A?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 04, 2019, 03:01:35 pm
I'm not sure what purpose was served by the GOP in calling Turley.  He admitted that a significant breach of public trust would be impeachable and that a quid pro quo of release of aid in exchange for a investigation of the Bidens would rise to the level of an impeachable offense. 

His argument comes down to that the evidence is not sufficient because it isn't "direct." That's a real head-scratcher, as presumably Prof. Turley knows that in any federal case - civil or criminal - the judge will instruct the jury that they may reach a conclusion entirely on the basis of inferential proof.

As an example, here is the 9th circuit's pattern criminal jury instructions:

Quote
Evidence may be direct or circumstantial. Direct evidence is direct proof of a fact, such as testimony by a witness about what that witness personally saw or heard or did. Circumstantial
evidence is indirect evidence, that is, it is proof of one or more facts from which one can find another fact. You are to consider both direct and circumstantial evidence. Either can be used to prove any fact. The law makes no distinction between the weight to be given to either direct or circumstantial evidence. It is for you to decide how much weight to give to any evidence.

A person may be sentenced for a capital criminal crime and executed based entirely on indirect or circumstantial evidence.  It happens all the time.  It is absurd to suggest that only direct evidence can be used to impeach.

What makes it even more absurd here is that the lack of direct evidence isn't because such evidence doesn't exist, but because the President is actively obstructing the presentation of that evidence.  The House and Senate can draw the reasonable inference that the President is doing that because the evidence would be unfavorable to him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2019, 04:07:11 pm
NPR is airing live.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on December 04, 2019, 04:09:07 pm
NPR is airing live.

What I don't understand is how Fox News can get away with not broadcasting this stuff live.  I mean sure, have your talking heads be all negative about it, but to just pretend it isn't happening?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on December 04, 2019, 04:10:47 pm
Fox is broadcasting to idiots that won't believe anything the other networks say and don't want to experience the cognitive dissonance that would come about by switching the channel.

So of course they don't have any coverage.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2019, 04:47:59 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNpVc7J8kC8

Fox does seem to have presented this 9 minute chunk of Turley's testimony live.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2019, 05:58:57 pm
NPR is airing live.

What I don't understand is how Fox News can get away with not broadcasting this stuff live.  I mean sure, have your talking heads be all negative about it, but to just pretend it isn't happening?

It's harder to deny something when it you capture it on live television.  The Fox News response to the Mulveny admission was to claim that it was taken out of context by evil media figures, and not to share their tapes to on television.  You wouldn't think a thing like that would work, but four decades of claiming media bias made it possible.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2019, 09:26:05 pm
This could be fucking magical, especially if he demands to testify himself

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1202383863240114176
Quote
A top White House official said Wednesday that Pres. Trump is demanding a full trial, featuring live witnesses in the Senate chamber if and when the House sends over articles of impeachment to the Senate later this month. https://
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2019, 09:29:57 pm
Featuring live witnesses? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on December 04, 2019, 09:41:21 pm
Featuring live witnesses? :unsure:

Dead witnesses tell no tales.  There will be a mysterious outbreak of food poisoning that will kill off Trump's cabinet and staff.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on December 04, 2019, 10:12:46 pm
Is this the brilliant idea to keep Warren and Sanders in the Senate all the time that our master strategist Legbiter recommended? Being on TV all the time flinging metaphorical darts at Trump won't help them at all.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on December 05, 2019, 04:01:41 pm
Being on TV all the time flinging metaphorical darts at Trump won't help them at all.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/13L53FdeOWIfbq/giphy.gif)  ;)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 05, 2019, 04:03:43 pm
Legbiter, I've been thinking about your "hype" comment and what it means.  Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 05, 2019, 06:03:14 pm
Being on TV all the time flinging metaphorical darts at Trump won't help them at all.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/13L53FdeOWIfbq/giphy.gif)  ;)

Really don't see how this helps Mitch in the senate. Blue or swing state senators vote to acquit and they'll have big turn out against them ala 2018. They vote to convict and they'll get primaried by fanatics and either lose to them or lose in the general because the base doesn't turn out.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on December 05, 2019, 07:03:03 pm
Being on TV all the time flinging metaphorical darts at Trump won't help them at all.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/13L53FdeOWIfbq/giphy.gif)  ;)

Yep.  Moscow Mitch is going to keep the 23 Republicans who are desperate to defend their seats in Washington along with the 13 equivalent Democrats.  He's stupid enough to lose the Senate while not helping Trump at all.  With Friends like Mitch, the teabaggers need no enemies.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Solmyr on December 06, 2019, 01:35:47 am
So is there actual hope of the Senate flipping to Dems? When is the next election?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 06, 2019, 02:09:39 am
So is there actual hope of the Senate flipping to Dems? When is the next election?

They need 3 if they win the presidency, 4 if they don't. 23 Republican seats are up, only 13 Democratic seats. November 2020.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: ulmont on December 06, 2019, 09:29:23 am
So is there actual hope of the Senate flipping to Dems? When is the next election?

They need 3 if they win the presidency, 4 if they don't. 23 Republican seats are up, only 13 Democratic seats. November 2020.

The Democrats would basically need to run the table.  If you imagine an environment where the overall national mood is Democrats by about 7 points (slightly under 2018), it could happen.  Some context:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/were-checking-in-on-all-those-2020-senate-races-a-few-gop-incumbents-look-vulnerable/
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on December 06, 2019, 09:29:36 am
So is there actual hope of the Senate flipping to Dems? When is the next election?


Actual? Yes. Likely? No. The main problem is that Doug Jones was incredibly lucky in Alabama and lightening is unlikely to strike twice (though with the current state of the Republicans you never know...) so the Democrats are almost certain to lose one. So in order to win control the Democrats have to sweep the five reasonably contested seats.

But unlike in 2018 the seats that are up are at least mostly Republican.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 08, 2019, 02:28:38 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=admcxaVXn0w

Hunter Biden is being sued for paternity by a DC stripper.  :lmfao:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2019, 05:44:29 pm
So is there actual hope of the Senate flipping to Dems? When is the next election?

They need 3 if they win the presidency, 4 if they don't. 23 Republican seats are up, only 13 Democratic seats. November 2020.

The Democrats would basically need to run the table.  If you imagine an environment where the overall national mood is Democrats by about 7 points (slightly under 2018), it could happen.  Some context:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/were-checking-in-on-all-those-2020-senate-races-a-few-gop-incumbents-look-vulnerable/

Collins, Gardner, Tillis and McSally are pretty vulnerable. If a democrat wins the presidency, going three out of four among them doesn't seem that unlikely.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: PDH on December 08, 2019, 08:43:29 pm
Collins, Gardner, Tillis and McSally are pretty vulnerable. If a democrat wins the presidency, going three out of four among them doesn't seem that unlikely.

tainted
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 09, 2019, 09:36:16 pm
This whole thing has been discouraging.  It is depressing that the entire Republican party has decided that soliciting aid from a foreign country is fine.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on December 09, 2019, 10:19:45 pm
This whole thing has been discouraging.  It is depressing that the entire Republican party has decided that soliciting aid from a foreign country is fine.

Oh it would be the highest of outrages if Hillary did it. It is starting to get stupid. It is like the law is just a tool to stop us, not something that matters in itself.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2019, 02:36:43 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaCntDx4V_0

I was watching this CNN blah blah blah talking heads clip and learned something about the Clinton impeachment trial (in the Senate) that I did not know, and which helps to make that Trump tweet about "actual live witnesses" a little more understandable.

I didn't watch any of the Clinton hearings/trial, but these guys say in the Senate there were four witnesses, they were all deposed "off campus" with some Senators present, and then these depositions were played on big TVs to the whole Senate.  So I guess Trump is saying that way of doing it is no good.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on December 10, 2019, 03:26:43 pm
Nah, he's just a moran.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 10, 2019, 06:30:57 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaCntDx4V_0

I was watching this CNN blah blah blah talking heads clip and learned something about the Clinton impeachment trial (in the Senate) that I did not know, and which helps to make that Trump tweet about "actual live witnesses" a little more understandable.

I didn't watch any of the Clinton hearings/trial, but these guys say in the Senate there were four witnesses, they were all deposed "off campus" with some Senators present, and then these depositions were played on big TVs to the whole Senate.  So I guess Trump is saying that way of doing it is no good.

Dems would love to have live witnesses testify. It's McConnel and the GOP senate who wisely don't want that to happen.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on December 11, 2019, 02:53:31 pm
Based on the testimony of the Inspector General, there are some people involved in the FISA warrants that are in some serious trouble.  But he is taking pains the distinguish the decision to investigate with the investigative process - it is the process he found had significant flaws.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 11, 2019, 02:55:49 pm
Barr is not well placed to criticize aggressive FISA applications given his antics in the early 90s.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on December 11, 2019, 02:57:14 pm
Barr is not well placed to criticize aggressive FISA applications given his antics in the early 90s.

No but Horowitz is and he has referred one person for criminal investigation - probably the person who altered the email.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2019, 09:25:12 pm
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/17/788982994/read-president-trump-sends-pelosi-letter-protesting-partisan-impeachment-charade

Trump's six page letter to Pelosi about impeachment.

TLDNR: Democrats suck, I'm awesome.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 17, 2019, 09:59:25 pm
Fun to play the game of which parts came from Trump ("the very ugly word, impeachment") and grown-ups familiar with the adult use of the English language ("The Articles of Impeachment introduced in the House Judiciary Committee are not recognizable under any standard of Constitutional theory, interpretations or jurisprudence").
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 17, 2019, 10:07:48 pm
God, I hate this.  I know Trump won't be removed, and will probably be reelected.  I still believe it was the right thing to do, but it feels like we're at Balaclava and Lord Raglan just gave us the fatal order.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2019, 10:18:47 pm
I thought it was interesting that he committed to paper the assertion that the greasy Ukrainian attorney general was the one trying to drain the swamp of Hunter's illicit Burisma activities.

Also still stunned that House Democrats made zero effort to debunk this myth during the hearings.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 17, 2019, 10:19:04 pm
Big strategic mistake not to push the subpoenas.

Pelosi agrees with Raz, thinks impeachment is charging the guns, hence her strategy to have to done and long gone from the news by the time Iowa caucuses roll around.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: frunk on December 17, 2019, 10:37:24 pm
Big strategic mistake not to push the subpoenas.

Pelosi agrees with Raz, thinks impeachment is charging the guns, hence her strategy to have to done and long gone from the news by the time Iowa caucuses roll around.

It feels like a half-hearted effort, the same way they approached the Mueller report.  There's plenty of more dirt there, but they aren't bothering to do the work.  Getting the subpoenas would be a big part of that. 

They are approaching it as if the only thing that matters is if it changes public opinion.  "Did starting the impeachment flip people against Trump?  No?  OK, wrap it up and move on."  Meanwhile it's thoroughly obvious that there's tons of more damaging information there, which they aren't bothering with.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 17, 2019, 10:37:50 pm
God, I hate this.  I know Trump won't be removed, and will probably be reelected.  I still believe it was the right thing to do, but it feels like we're at Balaclava and Lord Raglan just gave us the fatal order.

Unless they're significantly more competent at electoral fraud then everything else they've tried, how?

The polls have been consistently in the 53-56% disapprove zone for almost three years now.

They lost 41 house seats. They've lost governor houses in blood red states like Kentucky and Louisiana. The statehouse in Va flipped.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on December 17, 2019, 11:28:30 pm
Yes, how could that possibly happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_elections

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_presidential_election
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 18, 2019, 12:12:22 am
Nobody ever went broke overestimating the stupidity of the American people... well, except Trump did it four times. /shrug
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on December 18, 2019, 08:22:18 am
God, I hate this.  I know Trump won't be removed, and will probably be reelected.  I still believe it was the right thing to do, but it feels like we're at Balaclava and Lord Raglan just gave us the fatal order.

Unless they're significantly more competent at electoral fraud then everything else they've tried, how?

The polls have been consistently in the 53-56% disapprove zone for almost three years now.

They lost 41 house seats. They've lost governor houses in blood red states like Kentucky and Louisiana. The statehouse in Va flipped.

Tainted.


Welcome guys to the future Trumpland gulag.  :(

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on December 18, 2019, 10:28:27 am
Unless they're significantly more competent at electoral fraud then everything else they've tried, how?

The polls have been consistently in the 53-56% disapprove zone for almost three years now.

They lost 41 house seats. They've lost governor houses in blood red states like Kentucky and Louisiana. The statehouse in Va flipped.

This impeachment will show the people on the right that Trump is a criminal and they won’t vote for him again. It’s a brilliant strategy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 18, 2019, 10:32:15 am
The people on the Right aren't stupid.  They know exactly what kind of man he is.  He's bad man who does bad things.  That's why they elected him; they want him to bad things to people they don't like.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on December 18, 2019, 11:14:21 am
Yes. There was a longish article on n+1 discussing this aspect of Trump - he’s not a paragon of conservative virtue. He’s a champion chosen to fight without quarters against existential enemies.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on December 18, 2019, 12:30:00 pm
Like teh gays?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 pm
Yes. There was a longish article on n+1 discussing this aspect of Trump - he’s not a paragon of conservative virtue. He’s a champion chosen to fight without quarters against existential enemies.

So Tina Turner/Mad Max, or Master/Blaster? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on December 18, 2019, 03:12:44 pm
Tina/Ike.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2019, 04:45:58 pm
God, I hate this.  I know Trump won't be removed, and will probably be reelected.  I still believe it was the right thing to do, but it feels like we're at Balaclava and Lord Raglan just gave us the fatal order.

Unless they're significantly more competent at electoral fraud then everything else they've tried, how?

The polls have been consistently in the 53-56% disapprove zone for almost three years now.

They lost 41 house seats. They've lost governor houses in blood red states like Kentucky and Louisiana. The statehouse in Va flipped.
Maybe. The fundamentals are incredibly strong for the GOP - I mean Reagan in '84 strong. Which, if they win, is how they'll do it.

That it's competitive at all is an indication of Trump's issues.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Ancient Demon on December 18, 2019, 07:29:34 pm
Getting a pre-existing investigation into a foreign company back on track after Joe Biden derailed it is pretty benign stuff (prompting it from nothing would be different). It's funny to see people supporting impeachment on these grounds claim to care about rule of law, as if anyone here would withhold a vote for or support the impeachment of Biden for his own prior intervention into the same matter.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 18, 2019, 07:46:55 pm
And it's done.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2019, 07:50:35 pm
Tulsi Gabbard voted present.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HVC on December 18, 2019, 07:54:21 pm
I’m assuming the senate vote isn’t a anonymous thing?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2019, 07:59:56 pm
I’m assuming the senate vote isn’t a anonymous thing?

Correct
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 18, 2019, 08:20:32 pm
Tulsi Gabbard voted present.


She has a career at Fox News to think about.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on December 18, 2019, 09:16:52 pm
Trump got impeached lol
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on December 18, 2019, 10:03:55 pm
I’m assuming the senate vote isn’t a anonymous thing?
There was some talk of making it that way due to witness tampering/threats from Trump and his team, but it never panned out to anything from what I can tell.  I think it would yield a very different result if it were anonymous.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on December 18, 2019, 11:01:49 pm
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2019, 02:43:47 am
Yes, how could that possibly happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_elections

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_presidential_election
The important part of my statement was the three years. Obama was momentarily as unpopular, Trump has been in that 53 to 56 percent zone disapprove for nearly his whole term.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on December 19, 2019, 02:46:15 am
What an awful system. 2/3 in the senate... have parties ever held so much?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2019, 02:46:55 am
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?

The Republicans have long become a radical reactionary party and doubled down on Trump. They'll acquit him with record speed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2019, 03:21:11 am
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?

Definitely not sit on it.  For one thing McConnel probably wants to get it all done before the Bolton, Mulvaney et al subpoenas make their way through the courts.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Maladict on December 19, 2019, 04:00:46 am
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?

The Republicans have long become a radical reactionary party and doubled down on Trump. They'll acquit him with record speed.

I don't know, that might not sit well with moderate voters. If they still exist, that is.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2019, 04:11:34 am
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?

The Republicans have long become a radical reactionary party and doubled down on Trump. They'll acquit him with record speed.

I don't know, that might not sit well with moderate voters. If they still exist, that is.

Tribe over nation, mate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Grey Fox on December 19, 2019, 07:48:47 am
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?

Definitely not sit on it.  For one thing McConnel probably wants to get it all done before the Bolton, Mulvaney et al subpoenas make their way through the courts.

I think McRussian sits on it. He sits on everything & the senators need to go campaign.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on December 19, 2019, 10:19:45 am
The important part of my statement was the three years. Obama was momentarily as unpopular, Trump has been in that 53 to 56 percent zone disapprove for nearly his whole term.

That's about where he was when he got elected in 2016. Now he's going to in part run against the House in 2020 for impeaching him and the legislative is always more unpopular than the executive.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 19, 2019, 10:20:39 am
The GOP party boss has spoken, so expect the Senate to respond accordingly:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-says-impeachment-case-against-trump-is-fabricated/ar-BBY9AuN?ocid=spartandhp
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on December 19, 2019, 10:23:14 am
So any bets on what the Senate will do?
Sit on it?
Immediate vote to acquit?
An actual trial?

Definitely not sit on it.  For one thing McConnel probably wants to get it all done before the Bolton, Mulvaney et al subpoenas make their way through the courts.

Well one option I've heard thrown around is that the House might not immediately send it to the Senate - that Pelosi might sit on it.  This would be a means of leverage to try and ensure fair terms of a trial in the Senate.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on December 19, 2019, 10:26:59 am
Well one option I've heard thrown around is that the House might not immediately send it to the Senate - that Pelosi might sit on it.  This would be a means of leverage to try and ensure fair terms of a trial in the Senate.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c7065fc925ce1c173c05a6277366bd8b/tenor.gif)

This is turning into very expensive psychotherapy for the Democrats.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on December 19, 2019, 10:59:10 am
One thing that is remarkable is that it is not just a few members of congress repeating the Fox News/White House talking points.  It every single Republican member of congress. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2019, 11:00:31 am
One thing that is remarkable is that it is not just a few members of congress repeating the Fox News/White House talking points.  It every single Republican member of congress.

What else are they supposed to do? Go back working mundane office jobs in the private sector?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on December 19, 2019, 11:03:46 am
One thing that is remarkable is that it is not just a few members of congress repeating the Fox News/White House talking points.  It every single Republican member of congress.

What else are they supposed to do? Go back working mundane office jobs in the private sector?

Just remarkable how quickly they have all become Trumpists.  I thought there may be some conservatives left.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2019, 11:04:37 am
Similar to the "did Trump write this" game that Joan proposed, I think it's fun to watch individual Republicans talking and try to guess their level of True Belief.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on December 19, 2019, 11:06:19 am
One thing that is remarkable is that it is not just a few members of congress repeating the Fox News/White House talking points.  It every single Republican member of congress.

What else are they supposed to do? Go back working mundane office jobs in the private sector?

Just remarkable how quickly they have all become Trumpists.  I thought there may be some conservatives left.

What's impressive to me is how little they care that some of their talking points were concocted by Russian intelligence. They know it's bullshit, they know it came from Russia, and they keep parroting anyways. It's incredible.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on December 19, 2019, 12:21:42 pm
What do you expect? They're Republicans. Anyone who is a Republican in 2019 is scum. GHWB was a looong time ago.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2019, 03:17:59 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cl1UKE0cY4

Putin gives the final word.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2019, 04:16:22 pm
Well one option I've heard thrown around is that the House might not immediately send it to the Senate - that Pelosi might sit on it.  This would be a means of leverage to try and ensure fair terms of a trial in the Senate.

I was wondering how Pelosi could hold up Senate action after the House had voted out impeachment, but I've since learned that she still has to name the impeachment managers.  :shifty:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on December 19, 2019, 06:09:10 pm
One thing that is remarkable is that it is not just a few members of congress repeating the Fox News/White House talking points.  It every single Republican member of congress.

What else are they supposed to do? Go back working mundane office jobs in the private sector?
I expected more to go down the "this is unacceptable conduct, of course, and I am deeply, deeply concerned. But it isn't impeachable and that's not what the country needs right now" route.

As it turns out they've all gone down the crazy Ukraine interfering in our elections conspiracy theory route.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 20, 2019, 12:08:22 am
So apparently Putin told Trump that it was Ukraine that interfered in the election and Trump said he believes Putin.  Is anyone on the Republican side pointing out that none of that makes any Goddamn sense?  The Democrats had Ukraine hack their server to sabotage their own chance at winning the election so they could later impeach Donald Trump?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on December 20, 2019, 12:39:14 am
One breach in the partisan wall :

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/19/trump-evangelical-christian-magazine-impeachment


Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2019, 03:59:34 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioCDIiaaifE

My impression is that Christianity Today is a magazine of the (rapidly shrinking) moderate/hippie wing of Protestantism.  This is based on the fact that my father (definitely hippie wing) subscribes, and that the editor in chief in this CNN interview describes himself as centrist.  So not going to move the dial.

This clip is worth checking out for Trump's twitterspazz.  Comes at 2:13 of the clip.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 21, 2019, 06:43:54 pm
One thing that is remarkable is that it is not just a few members of congress repeating the Fox News/White House talking points.  It every single Republican member of congress.

What else are they supposed to do? Go back working mundane office jobs in the private sector?
I expected more to go down the "this is unacceptable conduct, of course, and I am deeply, deeply concerned. But it isn't impeachable and that's not what the country needs right now" route.

As it turns out they've all gone down the crazy Ukraine interfering in our elections conspiracy theory route.

That's what they wanted to do, but Trump pitched a fit because everything he does is perfect, and anyone saying otherwise is a traitor.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 21, 2019, 07:24:32 pm
Docs linked inside
https://twitter.com/ChrisMurphyCT/status/1208418143879794689

Quote from: Senator Murphy of CT
🚨This is breaking news and it’s important. New documents show:

1. Ukraine aid was held just hours after the Trump/Zelensky “do us a favor” call

2. Internal notes show Trump’s direct involvement

3. Staff knew it was wrong, kept it secret
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 21, 2019, 07:34:38 pm
You and Senator Murphy seem to think Trump's guilt will affect the outcome somehow?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 21, 2019, 07:37:54 pm
You and Senator Murphy seem to think Trump's guilt will affect the outcome somehow?  :huh:

It'll affect the outcome of senate elections next November.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2019, 04:20:59 pm
Nah.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 23, 2019, 04:41:08 pm
Interesting docs.  No excuse to keep censoring Duffy.  Other than concealing evidence of presidential guilt.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 23, 2019, 04:43:07 pm
If the call was so "perfect" - why respond 90 minutes later with an aid freeze?
Waiting to hear GOP "explanation" on that one
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 23, 2019, 05:52:52 pm
If the call was so "perfect" - why respond 90 minutes later with an aid freeze?
Waiting to hear GOP "explanation" on that one


I don't understand what you are saying.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2019, 06:35:24 pm
The OMB emails seem a little over-hyped to me.

They might be a smoking gun if Zelensky had said fuck your shitty political investigation you fat retarded comb over cocksucker during The Phone Call, but since he didn't the timing looks coincidental.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on December 23, 2019, 09:50:52 pm
He also didn't say, "Yes!  I'll do so immediately.  You are absolutely right, Mr. Greatest American Hero President, sir.  Let me know what else I can do for you."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2019, 10:44:59 pm
He also didn't say, "Yes!  I'll do so immediately.  You are absolutely right, Mr. Greatest American Hero President, sir.  Let me know what else I can do for you."

So it's consistent with the facts that have already been presented.  My point is it's not the game changer that some CNN talking heads are presenting it as.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on December 23, 2019, 10:52:20 pm
Taken in isolation perhaps not, but when put together with the other pieces it is pretty damning.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 23, 2019, 11:28:08 pm
He also didn't say, "Yes!  I'll do so immediately.  You are absolutely right, Mr. Greatest American Hero President, sir.  Let me know what else I can do for you."

So it's consistent with the facts that have already been presented.  My point is it's not the game changer that some CNN talking heads are presenting it as.

When Republicans brag that nothing can change their minds there is no game changer.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2019, 11:51:02 pm
When Republicans brag that nothing can change their minds there is no game changer.

Every single Republican bragged about that?  Did they all do it at the same time, like a giant shout out?  I think I would have heard.

Come to think of it, I'm still a registered Republican, and I never bragged that nothing can change my mind.  So you must mean something different than every single Republican.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on December 24, 2019, 12:02:32 am
It's snowman season, not strawman season.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 12:09:53 am
Tell me what the flesh and blood man is.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 24, 2019, 12:21:52 am
Tell me what the flesh and blood man is.

There is zero chance 20 Senate Republicans vote to convict.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 04:00:58 am
There is zero chance 20 Senate Republicans vote to convict.

This is what Raz said?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 04:24:12 am
https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_110519/

I'm wondering if this is what Raz was trying to get at.  Monmouth survey results. Question 4A.

"Can you think of anything that Trump could do, or fail to do, in his term as president that would make you disapprove of the job he is doing, or not?"

62% of those who support Trump responded no.

On the other hand 70% of those who oppose Trump also said no when asked if there's anything he could do that would make them approve of the job he is doing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2019, 06:33:41 am
https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_110519/

I'm wondering if this is what Raz was trying to get at.  Monmouth survey results. Question 4A.

"Can you think of anything that Trump could do, or fail to do, in his term as president that would make you disapprove of the job he is doing, or not?"

62% of those who support Trump responded no.

On the other hand 70% of those who oppose Trump also said no when asked if there's anything he could do that would make them approve of the job he is doing.
I don’t think there is an equivalence.  It seems reasonable to write someone off after a certain point, there is nothing that Larry Nassar can do that would make me change my mind about him.  On the other hand, there is no person that I would still hold in regard if they do something that Nassar did.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2019, 07:06:28 am
Tell me what the flesh and blood man is.


Lindsey Graham.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 02:49:30 pm
I don’t think there is an equivalence.  It seems reasonable to write someone off after a certain point, there is nothing that Larry Nassar can do that would make me change my mind about him.  On the other hand, there is no person that I would still hold in regard if they do something that Nassar did.

That was my first that as well.  My second thought was, what if Trump has a come to Jesus moment on the road to Damascus, admits he has been totally wrong about everything, promises to live the rest of his life as a Nelson Mandela or a Mohandas Gandhi, and carries through on the promise?  Would you still disapprove of him?

Frankly I think it's a crummy survey question. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on December 24, 2019, 02:51:35 pm
No true Trump would do that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 02:52:34 pm
Lindsey Graham.

You need at least one more for a plural.  Plus, only one Republican bragging that nothing will change his mind still leaves open the possibility of a game changer.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 24, 2019, 02:55:06 pm
Anyway, Graham has changed his mind on Trump before.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on December 24, 2019, 03:12:30 pm
Yeah if Donald was visited by the ghosts of presidents past, present, and future tonight and woke up a totally different guy on Christmas morning I might approve of him, but that kind of supernatural help is unlikely to happen.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2019, 03:41:04 pm
Lindsey Graham.

You need at least one more for a plural.  Plus, only one Republican bragging that nothing will change his mind still leaves open the possibility of a game changer.


I wasn't giving an exhaustive list.  I could also point you to quite a few Republicans in Congress.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on December 24, 2019, 03:43:33 pm
I don’t think there is an equivalence.  It seems reasonable to write someone off after a certain point, there is nothing that Larry Nassar can do that would make me change my mind about him.  On the other hand, there is no person that I would still hold in regard if they do something that Nassar did.

That was my first that as well.  My second thought was, what if Trump has a come to Jesus moment on the road to Damascus, admits he has been totally wrong about everything, promises to live the rest of his life as a Nelson Mandela or a Mohandas Gandhi, and carries through on the promise?  Would you still disapprove of him?

Frankly I think it's a crummy survey question.

He doesn't have any useful skills that could be put to work for the benefit of mankind, as his whole career has been built on bullshit, bullying and ripping off the ordinary joe.

The best he could do would be confess his sins, repent and go join an monastic order or run a soup kitchen for the homeless.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on December 24, 2019, 03:43:39 pm
I don’t think there is an equivalence.  It seems reasonable to write someone off after a certain point, there is nothing that Larry Nassar can do that would make me change my mind about him.  On the other hand, there is no person that I would still hold in regard if they do something that Nassar did.

That was my first that as well.  My second thought was, what if Trump has a come to Jesus moment on the road to Damascus, admits he has been totally wrong about everything, promises to live the rest of his life as a Nelson Mandela or a Mohandas Gandhi, and carries through on the promise?  Would you still disapprove of him?

Frankly I think it's a crummy survey question. 

But he has already done so much damage. Could he really make up for that?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 03:45:11 pm
I wasn't giving an exhaustive list.  I could also point you to quite a few Republicans in Congress.

You were purportedly giving me the flesh and blood non-straw man.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 03:56:26 pm
But he has already done so much damage. Could he really make up for that?

Right, that's the counter-counter argument.

Should approval be based on a stock or a flow of good and bad deeds. :nerd:

It's a fun little thought experiment, but like I said a terrible political survey question.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 04:10:48 pm
It's a question at its heart about the tension between accountability and redemption.  :pope:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2019, 04:14:50 pm
I wasn't giving an exhaustive list.  I could also point you to quite a few Republicans in Congress.

You were purportedly giving me the flesh and blood non-straw man.


I was?  I thought that was something you came up with.  Whatever, Try David Nunes.  He'll mostly flesh and claims that he works for Trump despite being a Congressman.  Mostly I was thinking about a story I read earlier today (well the day I wrote my post), about how one of the Evangelical leaders said that they would only turn on Trump if there were photos of him and Putin actively committing a crime.  Also in my head was a Republican in one of the focus groups for CNN that said if Christ on the Cross said Trump colluded with Russia he'd have to run it by Trump before he would believe it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 24, 2019, 04:17:13 pm
I was?  I thought that was something you came up with.

Yeah, if you click the quote button and type something after it, the common perception will tend to be that you're responding to the part in the quotes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on December 25, 2019, 07:14:48 am
but that kind of supernatural help is unlikely to happen.
So, what you say is, there are actually limits as to what God can do?  :ph34r: :cry: :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on December 25, 2019, 07:58:43 am
That was my first that as well.  My second thought was, what if Trump has a come to Jesus moment on the road to Damascus, admits he has been totally wrong about everything, promises to live the rest of his life as a Nelson Mandela or a Mohandas Gandhi, and carries through on the promise?  Would you still disapprove of him?
I think so.
 
But I think the last bit gets to the heart of that question. There's plenty of stuff he's done that people like/dislike but I think that's really secondary. But I think the core for Trump's supporters and opponents is who he is and how he behaves. As long as he keeps doing that I don't think his supporters will turn, or people who don't approve suddenly convert.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on December 25, 2019, 12:55:41 pm
Yes, I am upset by the very idea that such a - to me- repulsively acting dumb spoiled rich brat can be elected and worshipped by so many.

If he ended up backing correct policies that would lessen the practical damage of course but wouldn't change the fact that his position as POTUS is a terrible, terrible reflection on us as a species
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on December 25, 2019, 01:09:26 pm
Yes, I am upset by the very idea that such a - to me- repulsively acting dumb spoiled rich brat can be elected and worshipped by so many.

If he ended up backing correct policies that would lessen the practical damage of course but wouldn't change the fact that his position as POTUS is a terrible, terrible reflection on us as a species

Indeed.

The fact that Trump is a douchebag of a human means very little to me. We know there are douchebags of human beings out there, so the fact that he is one of them? Meh.

The fact that we fucking elected him is appaling. The fact that much of the West in general seems to be going through this rejection of liberal democratic values in favor of authoritarians or semi-authoritarians or even just wanna be authoritarians is alarming, to put it mildly.

Although I do think this is a lashing out against the status quo more than a reversion to older, more demi-fascist political ideas. I actually think this is a great video about basically what happened in the US post WW2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSlHVZpNxMM
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2019, 07:52:18 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rASGGjey-I

Lisa Murkowski R Alaska puts a shot across McConnell's bow.

This clip made me realize there's an aspect of the impeachment trial I had not been considering: that procedures in the Senate are decided by majority vote, and there could be some Republicans who, while not openly expressing support for conviction, might end up voting for more prosecution-friendly procedures.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2019, 04:15:52 pm
There's at least 4 willing to vote against him on procedural issues at least some of the time or there wouldn't even be a trial, they would simply dismiss the charges as soon as they're recieved.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on December 26, 2019, 08:59:38 pm
but that kind of supernatural help is unlikely to happen.
So, what you say is, there are actually limits as to what God can do?  :ph34r: :cry: :lol:

Well can he make a rock so big not even he can lift it?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on December 26, 2019, 09:19:09 pm
but that kind of supernatural help is unlikely to happen.
So, what you say is, there are actually limits as to what God can do?  :ph34r: :cry: :lol:

Well can he make a rock so big not even he can lift it?

Can he microwave a burrito so hot that even he cannot eat it?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 26, 2019, 09:48:45 pm
Even I can do that, g.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 27, 2019, 04:37:05 am
Poll has support for conviction up to 55%

https://news.yahoo.com/public-support-trump-conviction-time-091925963.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on December 27, 2019, 12:46:47 pm
Poll has support for conviction up to 55%

https://news.yahoo.com/public-support-trump-conviction-time-091925963.html

And yet he will win reelection.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on December 27, 2019, 02:13:13 pm
Poll has support for conviction up to 55%

https://news.yahoo.com/public-support-trump-conviction-time-091925963.html

And yet he will win reelection.

No,No,No.

AR, the way it works is we get Timmay to say that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 31, 2019, 07:18:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRVgIAN__g

Susan Collins says she's "open" to witnesses.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on January 01, 2020, 08:36:10 am
Open to it, but if McConnell doesn't allow any, she'll vote for immediate acquittal just like the rest.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 01, 2020, 12:28:24 pm
McConnell is in a bit of a bind: He can't move forward before Pelosi sends him the impeachment paper and every day moves closer to the point where the Courts force several witnesses to testify.  The last thing he needs is Bolton and Mulvanney testifying against the President.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2020, 09:10:18 am
Open to it, but if McConnell doesn't allow any, she'll vote for immediate acquittal just like the rest.

It's not Mitch's call.  2 senator's have already signaled no, both pretty strongly.  Only takes two more, or three if you net out Manchin.  That's doable.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Solmyr on January 03, 2020, 01:21:37 am
Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz signaled before the election that they hated Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2020, 01:28:46 am
So don't take their word for it if they say they're going to cross Mitch.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2020, 02:54:09 pm
Has anyone else noticed how the Lev Parnas story line just disappeared?

All the Ukraine talk made me think of this.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on January 09, 2020, 03:01:59 pm
Has anyone else noticed how the Lev Parnas story line just disappeared?

All the Ukraine talk made me think of this.

Didn’t he turn over materials to Schiff’s committee? Might be things are moving there behind the scenes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 09, 2020, 03:03:53 pm
Impeachment is still a thing? Trump won Iran.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2020, 03:07:07 pm
The judge in the Parnas criminal case just issued an order last week authorizing Parnas to turn over additional documents to the House. So things are still moving even if the story is off the front pages.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 10, 2020, 08:18:50 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sE0G9rKhzE

Pelosi sending articles next week.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 12, 2020, 05:28:43 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sE0G9rKhzE

Pelosi sending articles next week.

Not sure that's a good idea.

Is it really better to have McConnel formally acquit Trump in a sham of a trial, rather than have them dismiss the charges without holding a trial as they've threatened to do if she doesn't send the articles over?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 12, 2020, 11:44:19 pm
I doubt it will matter one way or another.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 14, 2020, 09:49:30 pm
Is it me, or does it read like they were plotting to kill a sitting US ambassador?

https://twitter.com/jonswaine/status/1217217088353337344
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 14, 2020, 11:55:07 pm
Yeah, that's fucking surreal.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on January 15, 2020, 02:14:37 am
It's kind of fascinating to see how fast the rot spreads. It really doesn't take much, does it...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on January 15, 2020, 02:35:31 am
I mean that guy is fundraising off this.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on January 15, 2020, 06:41:04 am
It's kind of fascinating to see how fast the rot spreads. It really doesn't take much, does it...
To be fair, the rot was there before Trump, it's just exposed and accelerated now.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 15, 2020, 11:47:05 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvFWw0t2Qoo

Seven impeachment managers named.  Schiff is chair.

Nancy sounds like her brain is shutting down. :mellow:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 15, 2020, 12:56:29 pm
What is strange is that I continue to be shocked by this.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on January 15, 2020, 02:37:45 pm
Lev Parnas interview on Maddow tonight.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2020, 01:14:24 am
Holy moly

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/15/lev-parnas-ukraine-donald-trump-rudy-giuliani

Quote
Trump 'knew exactly what was going on' in Ukraine, says Giuliani associate
Lev Parnas tells MSNBC president was fully aware of his efforts to pressure Ukrainian officials to seek dirt on Biden

Donald Trump “knew exactly what was going on” in a scheme to pressure Ukrainian officials to investigate Joe Biden, according to an associate of the president’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani.

Lev Parnas, a businessman and GOP donor who was indicted for campaign finance violations, made the explosive allegations during an interview with MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Wednesday night.

When Parnas was in Ukraine, attempting to pressure Ukrainian officials to help dig up dirt on Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden, he was doing so on behalf of the president and Giuliani, he said, speaking with his lawyer at his side.

“I was on the ground doing their work,” Parnas said.

Parnas also said other members of the Trump administration knew about the Ukraine pressure campaign. William Barr, the attorney general, “was basically on the team”, Parnas said. And the former national security adviser John Bolton, who recently indicated he would testify in the Senate impeachment trial if he was subpoenaed, also “100%” knew about the scheme, Parnas said.

The extent of Trump’s involvement in an alleged scheme to pressure Ukrainian officials will be at the heart of the impeachment trial, which will begin next week. Trump has so far denied misconduct.

On Tuesday, House investigators released a trove of text messages, notes and other documents provided by lawyers for Parnas. The records include a letter that Giuliani sent requesting a private meeting with Volodymyr Zelensky, then Ukraine’s president-elect. The request was made with Trump’s “knowledge and consent”, Giuliani wrote.

House prosecutors are expected to present newly obtained evidence from Parnas over the course of the trial, which could unearth new evidence of misconduct by Trump.

On behalf of Giuliani, Parnas said he told a Ukrainian official that unless the administration announced an intention to investigate the Bidens, Mike Pence would not attend the Zelensky’s inauguration. The next day, “to my awareness”, said Parnas, Trump called to inform Ukrainian officials that Pence would cancel his trip to Ukraine.

Holding back military aid to Ukraine in order to turn up the pressure was something Trump “decided to do” after officials repeatedly resisted announcing investigations into the president’s political rival, Parnas said.

Trump has insisted that he didn’t know Parnas and Igor Fruman, another Giuliani associate, who was indicted along with Parnas for making illegal campaign donations. Photos posted by Parnas to Facebook show himself and Fruman with Trump and president’s oldest son, Donald Trump Jr.

“It’s possible I have a picture with them because I have a picture with everybody,” Trump said.

But the president “lied”, Parnas told Maddow. “Me and him didn’t watch football games together, we didn’t eat hot dogs. But he knew exactly who I was.”

Parnas also said he was with Giuliani when he was on the phone with the president. At times, Giuliani took the calls on speakerphone. Other times, the president was speaking so loudly that Parnas could overhear the dialogue even when the speaker function was turned off, he explained to Maddow.

“I want to get the truth out because I feel it’s important for the country,” Parnas said. “I think it’s important for the world to know what happened.”

Newly released text messages between Parnas and the Trump donor Robert Hyde also imply that Marie Yovanovitch, a widely respected US ambassador to Kyiv whom Trump ordered removed from her post in April, was being surveilled. In the messages, Hyde hinted he could arrange for Yovanovitch to be removed, for a price. In light of these revelations, former diplomats and congressional Democrats have asked for an investigation into whether Yovanovitch was indeed being monitored.

Parnas said he didn’t believe Hyde was being serious, or that the ambassador was ever in actual danger. Parnas had met Hyde at the Trump hotel in Washington: “He was a regular, at the bar,” he said, describing Hyde as a “weird individual”.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 16, 2020, 08:43:22 am
Let down.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 16, 2020, 09:22:01 am
Well I'll be damned.  Ukraine just opened its investigation.  Except it's not the Bidens.  It's whether these Trump cronies spied on a US ambassador.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 16, 2020, 10:29:47 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuXePRV_LW0

The GAO says the OMB broke the Federal Impoundment Act by withholding Ukraine aid.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on January 16, 2020, 11:28:23 am
The trial begins. 

Two of three presidential impeachments in American history have happened in our lifetimes. Three if we include Nixon, who resigned before inevitable impeachment. And a future Democratic president is almost assuredly going to get impeached should the Rs ever have a majority in the House again.

The long road of American democracy bends toward failure.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on January 16, 2020, 11:46:09 am
The trial begins. 

Two of three presidential impeachments in American history have happened in our lifetimes. Three if we include Nixon, who resigned before inevitable impeachment. And a future Democratic president is almost assuredly going to get impeached should the Rs ever have a majority in the House again.

The long road of American democracy bends toward failure.

yeah, it's gonna reach a point where "impeachment" will be a matter of course. The only unpredictablility will be how soon after inauguration will proceedings begin.

America is broken.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 16, 2020, 11:59:13 am
The impeachment case vs Clinton was a legitimate impeachment case.  He lied under oath in a federal proceeding.  Perjury in a federal case was one of the few defined federal crimes in the very first federal criminal statute, so it is reasonable to conclude that it would fit the definition of a high crime and misdemeanor.  The question in Clinton's case was whether the context of the perjury was such as to justify removal through impeachment.  I agree with the Senate judgment that removal was not warranted but it was not a illegitimate case to bring.

Obviously, I also believe the impeachment case vs. Trump is legit.

I don't see the bringing of these proceedings as evidence of democratic failure.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 16, 2020, 12:10:22 pm
The trial begins. 

Two of three presidential impeachments in American history have happened in our lifetimes. Three if we include Nixon, who resigned before inevitable impeachment. And a future Democratic president is almost assuredly going to get impeached should the Rs ever have a majority in the House again.

The long road of American democracy bends toward failure.

yeah, it's gonna reach a point where "impeachment" will be a matter of course. The only unpredictablility will be how soon after inauguration will proceedings begin.

America is broken.

I don't know why you would say that.  Bush 43 wasn't impeached despite how much certain democrats loathed him.  Obama wasn't impeached despite how much certain republicans loathed him.

The Clinton impeachment scared politicians from both parties off from impeachment - Clinton emerged even stronger after the impeachment.  Now in Trump we're seeing that despite overwhelming evidence of corruption and crimes, Trump is not suffering any political hit.

If Trump is acquitted on a more-or-less party line vote it's hard to see how any President would be successfully impeached ever.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on January 16, 2020, 01:04:22 pm
The trial begins. 

Two of three presidential impeachments in American history have happened in our lifetimes. Three if we include Nixon, who resigned before inevitable impeachment. And a future Democratic president is almost assuredly going to get impeached should the Rs ever have a majority in the House again.

The long road of American democracy bends toward failure.

yeah, it's gonna reach a point where "impeachment" will be a matter of course. The only unpredictablility will be how soon after inauguration will proceedings begin.

America is broken.

I don't know why you would say that.  Bush 43 wasn't impeached despite how much certain democrats loathed him.  Obama wasn't impeached despite how much certain republicans loathed him.

The Clinton impeachment scared politicians from both parties off from impeachment - Clinton emerged even stronger after the impeachment.  Now in Trump we're seeing that despite overwhelming evidence of corruption and crimes, Trump is not suffering any political hit.

If Trump is acquitted on a more-or-less party line vote it's hard to see how any President would be successfully impeached ever.

I see the almost-inevitable failure of the Senate to convict in this case a very troubling milestone for American democracy. The message will be that the President is above any law as long as his party has a majority in the Senate, and that limits to his power are illusory.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 16, 2020, 01:54:51 pm
Holy moly

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/15/lev-parnas-ukraine-donald-trump-rudy-giuliani

Quote
Trump 'knew exactly what was going on' in Ukraine, says Giuliani associate
Lev Parnas tells MSNBC president was fully aware of his efforts to pressure Ukrainian officials to seek dirt on Biden

I call BS. Trump is never fully aware of anything.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 16, 2020, 09:04:14 pm
Okay, here's what I don't understand.  Why go to all this trouble to fire an ambassador?  Ambassadors serve at the pleasure of the president.  Trump could have fired her at any time.  Why go through this whole thing of discrediting her and, apparently, stalking her?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on January 16, 2020, 09:23:30 pm
Okay, here's what I don't understand.  Why go to all this trouble to fire an ambassador?  Ambassadors serve at the pleasure of the president.  Trump could have fired her at any time.  Why go through this whole thing of discrediting her and, apparently, stalking her?

Because he enjoys doing nasty stuff, he is after all a bully; he gets off on that sort of behaviour.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 16, 2020, 10:08:07 pm
Trump was trying to pressure Yovanovitch into making the case for withholding the funds and promoting the investigation.  He wanted a tethered goat in case his actions became public.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on January 17, 2020, 08:54:01 am
The trial begins. 

Two of three presidential impeachments in American history have happened in our lifetimes. Three if we include Nixon, who resigned before inevitable impeachment. And a future Democratic president is almost assuredly going to get impeached should the Rs ever have a majority in the House again.

The long road of American democracy bends toward failure.

yeah, it's gonna reach a point where "impeachment" will be a matter of course. The only unpredictablility will be how soon after inauguration will proceedings begin.

And as long as the the Senate majority belongs to the presidential party, then that presdident will not be removed from office.

America is broken.

I don't know why you would say that.  Bush 43 wasn't impeached despite how much certain democrats loathed him.  Obama wasn't impeached despite how much certain republicans loathed him.

The Clinton impeachment scared politicians from both parties off from impeachment - Clinton emerged even stronger after the impeachment.  Now in Trump we're seeing that despite overwhelming evidence of corruption and crimes, Trump is not suffering any political hit.

If Trump is acquitted on a more-or-less party line vote it's hard to see how any President would be successfully impeached ever.

I'm saying it's broken because, I'm saying that althought the Clinton and Trump impeachments are legit, I'm convinced that this is the start of impeachment becoming a normal ritual in a president's term. wait and see ... and as long as the president's party controls the senate, the president will never be removed from office. The US democracy is broken because it's very partisan these days.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2020, 08:57:00 am
I agree.  "Only" half of presidents getting impeached is not a healthy system.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on January 17, 2020, 09:11:04 am
He wanted a tethered goat in case his actions became public.

I doubt his mind operates with that level of strategery.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 17, 2020, 11:35:51 am
Bill Clinton's case was sui generis.  As for Trump, if we keep electing people like him as President, then we can certainly expect much higher impeachment rates.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on January 17, 2020, 11:40:28 am
Yeah. It's fascinating really. Trumpys act so proud about how trump doesn't obey the rules and all that. Like he has discovered something new in saying he just won't keep his end of agreements and will follow underhand business practices in his job as president.
Somewhere over the years we've totally lost sight of the fact that rules and standards exist for a reason. That you can't just piss all over the system and get away with it completely.

But of course he will generally. As the system is stupid.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 17, 2020, 11:43:22 am
As the system is stupid.

If you say so.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on January 17, 2020, 11:44:45 am
If future Republicans don't want to be impeached, maybe they shouldn't break the law?

Or change the law so that the President is the law.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2020, 01:17:11 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULTSYh_BJEU

Alan Dershowitz and Ken Starr added to impeachment defense team.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 17, 2020, 01:38:15 pm
Not the first rich prick he's defended.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 17, 2020, 02:09:52 pm
Probably not the best choices, I shouldn't think. 

Alan Dershowitz is past it and closely linked to Jeffrey Epstein, his pal and Rape Island sponsor.

Ken Starr is a better choice but so nakedly partisan that nothing he says will be taken seriously except by the other nakedly partisan types, so he's be preaching to the choir.  Plus, of course, the gross hypocrisy of his arguing that a president should be impeached and removed over a blowjob, but not over a willful violation of the law he is sworn to uphold, and an attempt to cover that up.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 17, 2020, 02:17:27 pm
Alan Dershowitz's last 3 most famous clients were Jeffrey Epstein, Julian Assange and Harvey Weinstein so Trump is joining prestigious company.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Maximus on January 17, 2020, 02:25:49 pm
I agree.  "Only" half of presidents getting impeached is not a healthy system.
I would say "only" half of presidents elected being impeachable is not a healthy system
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2020, 02:41:23 pm
I think Epstein might have been railroaded.  The accusations were essentially a shakedown.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 17, 2020, 05:49:39 pm
"Epstein didn't kill himself"?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 17, 2020, 05:55:36 pm
I think Epstein might have been railroaded.  The accusations were essentially a shakedown.

Any reason why you think that, or is this just conspiracy thinking?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on January 17, 2020, 05:56:50 pm
"Epstein didn't kill himself"?
BTW, WTF is up with that?  Surely there is a campaign organized somewhere to send trolls all over the Internet to paste that everywhere, but who's behind that?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2020, 09:24:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmf2PodFgi4&t=412s

Dershowitz on CNN explaining his limited impeachment role.

He has laid out his argument before.  What I found interesting is that he appears to be preparing, and has been engaged to, be a witness, which suggests the trial will not be a simple slam bam thank you ma'am dismissal vote.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 17, 2020, 10:11:28 pm
So apparently there is some unknown Belgian involved in all this.  Or at least someone using a Belgian phone number.  Who ever it is was providing information on the Ambassador and claims that "We have someone on the inside".  So there are some more players involved.  This Republican Congressional candidate is fucked, he may have committed a crime and he's about to find out that  Trump's loyalty goes only one way.  Also, when was David Nunes going to tell us about his connections to these crooks?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on January 17, 2020, 10:41:27 pm
I mean that guy is fundraising off this.

He sounds like a mess / running in a district regularly returning a Democrat. His state party has asked him to give up his campaign.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/who-robert-hyde-latest-character-trump-impeachment-scandal-has-wild-n1116656
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2020, 10:48:39 pm
Colorful guy
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 18, 2020, 12:44:55 am
"Epstein didn't kill himself"?
BTW, WTF is up with that?  Surely there is a campaign organized somewhere to send trolls all over the Internet to paste that everywhere, but who's behind that?

Maybe Epstein, if he is still alive like they claim?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on January 18, 2020, 01:18:20 am
I think Epstein might have been railroaded.  The accusations were essentially a shakedown.

I don't get what you're saying. Explain railroaded and shakedown please.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 18, 2020, 01:44:51 am
"Epstein didn't kill himself"?
BTW, WTF is up with that?  Surely there is a campaign organized somewhere to send trolls all over the Internet to paste that everywhere, but who's behind that?

Maybe Epstein, if he is still alive like they claim?

The claim is that he was murdered.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 18, 2020, 01:47:41 am
"Epstein didn't kill himself"?
BTW, WTF is up with that?  Surely there is a campaign organized somewhere to send trolls all over the Internet to paste that everywhere, but who's behind that?

Maybe Epstein, if he is still alive like they claim?

The claim is that he was murdered.

:o
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 18, 2020, 09:10:42 am
I don't get what you're saying. Explain railroaded and shakedown please.

The shakedown is the civil suit against first Epstein's, and later his estate.

Epstein liked banging pretty young girls, and he thought providing pretty young girls to clients and hangers on would help his business dealings.  AFAICT the girls participated willingly.  Still, he was technically in violation of prostitution and trafficking laws, not because he drugged them and held them down screaming while they were ass raped by Prince Andrew, but because the girls had crossed state and international borders.

So the lead plaintiff and a tort attorney get together and change the narrative from sleazy businessman pays young girls for sex to predation and sexual abuse, which resonates in the #MeToo environment.  The media is happy to buy into this narrative. Epstein's Florida plea now looks like an old boy corrupt deal so he's recharged.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on January 18, 2020, 01:26:00 pm
I thought the main argument was that the girls were underage, ergo "willingly participating" is irrelevant. No?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on January 18, 2020, 01:29:11 pm
I mean his first arrest was about a 14 year old girl. He pleaded guilty.

Quote
He served almost 13 months in custody, but with extensive work release. He was convicted of only these two crimes as part of a plea deal; federal officials had in fact identified 36 girls, some as young as 14 years old, whom Epstein had sexually abused.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 18, 2020, 01:41:32 pm
I thought the main argument was that the girls were underage, ergo "willingly participating" is irrelevant. No?

All I know is that the lead plaintiff, Courtney Wild, was 17.  I checked stat rape in UK and NY, both 16.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 18, 2020, 05:09:03 pm
Zoupa is correct, the Palm Beach prosecution involved multiple girls under 16 with the youngest at 14.  Epstein was a scumbag and the only shakedown was the job pulled by his influential friends and high powered legal team in getting himself off with a wrist slap.  Actually not so - he also appears to have shook down his billionaire "friends"

In the SDNY case they found hundreds of photos of underaged girls . . .
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 18, 2020, 05:36:56 pm
K
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on January 18, 2020, 05:58:13 pm
So why isn't the revelation that Nunes was almost certainly deeply  involved in the Ukraine scandal from the outset not bigger news?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 18, 2020, 06:22:13 pm
Because, at this point, all the news re: the Russian treason is partisan news. Trump cultist will forgive anything. The Republicans will support him at any cost. People opposed to Trump already know he betrayed the Republic, and have already suspected that a number of his cronies are in as well. And people who are indifferent to the Russian treason have tuned out, probably vaguely annoyed that it's still in the news.

Which is why the complete breakdown of American institutions warrants a lot more coverage, and a complete overhaul of tone. There are years of truism and mental defenses about "checks and balances" to undo, to rather reveal both the frailties of these institutions, and the astonishing passivity of people in power. Check, for instance, this new account of Trump's meetings in the Pentagon, and how utterly unprepared for Trump the General Staff - and the actual secretaries - were.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/youre-a-bunch-of-dopes-and-babies-inside-trumps-stunning-tirade-against-generals/2020/01/16/d6dbb8a6-387e-11ea-bb7b-265f4554af6d_story.html
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on January 18, 2020, 07:41:04 pm
Yeah, I read that, and see your point.

That article alone is, or should be, about the most damning reporting there has been on any President since Nixon.

Hell, I actually think Trump is worse than Nixon.

But with Nunes, ignoring Trump, and even ignoring the issue with him being involved in the Ukraine mess - it is that he sat there on the impeachment committee going on and on about how it is all fake news, and he was involved! He never mentioned that, or quietly stepped away from the proceedings. In my opinion, that is actually considerably worse behavior then the entire dirt digging on Biden excursion to begin with, but it is hardly even making a ripple.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 18, 2020, 08:43:17 pm
Yeah, I read that, and see your point.

That article alone is, or should be, about the most damning reporting there has been on any President since Nixon.

Hell, I actually think Trump is worse than Nixon.

But with Nunes, ignoring Trump, and even ignoring the issue with him being involved in the Ukraine mess - it is that he sat there on the impeachment committee going on and on about how it is all fake news, and he was involved! He never mentioned that, or quietly stepped away from the proceedings. In my opinion, that is actually considerably worse behavior then the entire dirt digging on Biden excursion to begin with, but it is hardly even making a ripple.

I am utterly unsurprised the Nunes was criminally involved in the whole Ukraine thing, but learning that he was doesn't lower my opinion of him.  His own words during the hearings revealed him as so contemptible that he couldn't possibly sink lower in my estimation.

Trump being worse than Nixon goes without saying.  Nixon served where Trump dodged.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 18, 2020, 08:59:48 pm
That should be an and rather than a but.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 18, 2020, 09:56:53 pm
Because, at this point, all the news re: the Russian treason is partisan news. Trump cultist will forgive anything. The Republicans will support him at any cost. People opposed to Trump already know he betrayed the Republic, and have already suspected that a number of his cronies are in as well. And people who are indifferent to the Russian treason have tuned out, probably vaguely annoyed that it's still in the news.

Which is why the complete breakdown of American institutions warrants a lot more coverage, and a complete overhaul of tone. There are years of truism and mental defenses about "checks and balances" to undo, to rather reveal both the frailties of these institutions, and the astonishing passivity of people in power. Check, for instance, this new account of Trump's meetings in the Pentagon, and how utterly unprepared for Trump the General Staff - and the actual secretaries - were.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/youre-a-bunch-of-dopes-and-babies-inside-trumps-stunning-tirade-against-generals/2020/01/16/d6dbb8a6-387e-11ea-bb7b-265f4554af6d_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/youre-a-bunch-of-dopes-and-babies-inside-trumps-stunning-tirade-against-generals/2020/01/16/d6dbb8a6-387e-11ea-bb7b-265f4554af6d_story.html)

Mostly I just find all this extremely depressing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on January 18, 2020, 11:32:24 pm

Hell, I actually think Trump is worse than Nixon.

Well, yeah.  Nixon abused the power of his office, but at least he had real accomplishments.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 18, 2020, 11:53:45 pm
Recall that during much of the Mueller investigation, the GOP still controlled the House, and Nunes and his staff coordinated with the White House to stymie any inquiries into Russia matters.  Similar to how McConnell is suborning Senate independence by acting as an arm of the White House in the impeachment proceeding. So yes once you have Congressional leaders zealously undermining the integrity and independence of their branch trying to outdo one another in their toadying to the Executive it is certainly no surprise to find them delivering the President's dirtiest laundry to and fro.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 19, 2020, 01:40:51 am
GOP will be GOP.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on January 19, 2020, 04:15:12 am
So why isn't the revelation that Nunes was almost certainly deeply  involved in the Ukraine scandal from the outset not bigger news?
I mean hasn't Nunes been deeply involved in all of this since the start - the late night run to the White House etc.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on January 19, 2020, 07:48:50 am
So why isn't the revelation that Nunes was almost certainly deeply  involved in the Ukraine scandal from the outset not bigger news?
I mean hasn't Nunes been deeply involved in all of this since the start - the late night run to the White House etc.

He has been involved in the investigation, or rather, the attempt to stifle the investigation, from the start.

It has NOT been known that he was actually involved in the actual alleged crime itself.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 19, 2020, 07:59:29 am
Does it really matter who Trump's flunkies are? I mean, Giuliani had a greater reputation to trash, didn't stop him...
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Larch on January 19, 2020, 09:09:28 am
Because, at this point, all the news re: the Russian treason is partisan news. Trump cultist will forgive anything. The Republicans will support him at any cost. People opposed to Trump already know he betrayed the Republic, and have already suspected that a number of his cronies are in as well. And people who are indifferent to the Russian treason have tuned out, probably vaguely annoyed that it's still in the news.

Which is why the complete breakdown of American institutions warrants a lot more coverage, and a complete overhaul of tone. There are years of truism and mental defenses about "checks and balances" to undo, to rather reveal both the frailties of these institutions, and the astonishing passivity of people in power. Check, for instance, this new account of Trump's meetings in the Pentagon, and how utterly unprepared for Trump the General Staff - and the actual secretaries - were.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/youre-a-bunch-of-dopes-and-babies-inside-trumps-stunning-tirade-against-generals/2020/01/16/d6dbb8a6-387e-11ea-bb7b-265f4554af6d_story.html

I didn't expect Tillerson to be the one who'd come out looking better out of that story.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on January 22, 2020, 11:13:51 am
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-admits-to-withholding-evidence-from-impeachment-inquiry

Quote
President Trump appeared to admit Wednesday that he is comfortable with how his impeachment trial is playing out in the Senate—because the White House is withholding evidence about his dealings with Ukraine. “Honestly, we have all the material. They don’t have the material,” the president told reporters in Davos, Switzerland, where he is attending the World Economic Forum, regarding the documents the White House has refused to turn over. “When we released that conversation, all hell broke out with the Democrats because they say, wait a minute, this is much different than shifty Schiff told us, so we’re doing very well. I got to watch enough, I thought our team did a very good job,” Trump said, referencing House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff (D-CA), who has spearheaded the House impeachment inquiry against the president.

Rep. Val Demings (D-FL), one of the seven congressional impeachment managers, blasted Trump’s admission on Twitter, writing, “The second article of impeachment was for obstruction of Congress: covering up witnesses and documents from the American people. This morning the President not only confessed to it, he bragged about it.”
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on January 22, 2020, 11:26:20 am
Doesn't matter. If Republicans do it, it's not a crime.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 22, 2020, 05:01:18 pm
Ken Starr c. 2020: ""It's really unwise of the House. It's made up. There's really no such thing as obstruction of Congress."

Ken Starr c. 1998: " President Clinton abused his constitutional authority by (i) lying to the public and the Congress in January 1998 about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky; (ii) promising at that time to cooperate fully with the grand jury investigation; (iii) later refusing six invitations to testify voluntarily to the grand jury; (iv) invoking Executive Privilege; (v) lying to the grand jury in August 1998; and (vi) lying again to the public and Congress on August 17, 1998 -- all as part of an effort to hinder, impede, and deflect possible inquiry by the Congress of the United States."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 22, 2020, 05:16:13 pm
Older and wiser?


 :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 22, 2020, 06:11:53 pm
I liked the Clinton impeachment better.  The whole thing was funny.  The President got a hummer from a fat chick, lied about it, and then tried to weasel out of it.  It was hard to take seriously because the situation was so... silly.  At least that was my impression as a kid in high school.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 22, 2020, 06:37:20 pm
I took the impeachment of Clinton more seriously than most Democrats at the very least because I think perjury, especially by the nation's chief of law enforcement, is no joking matter and because I got the distinct impression all the various hangers on were conspiring to cover up Bubba's wrongdoings in Arkansas, but at the same time I never thought there was a serious chance of conviction.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on January 22, 2020, 08:30:33 pm
I took the impeachment of Clinton more seriously than most Democrats at the very least because I think perjury, especially by the nation's chief of law enforcement, is no joking matter and because I got the distinct impression all the various hangers on were conspiring to cover up Bubba's wrongdoings in Arkansas, but at the same time I never thought there was a serious chance of conviction.

I never took the impeachment seriously because it was obviously pretty much partisan BS.

I did think he should resign though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 22, 2020, 10:26:55 pm
Older and wiser?

The 2020 version is probably more right then the 1998 version (I'm not a big fan of the second article of impeachment vs Trump) but not because he is wiser, more that we just happened on the right time of day for this particular broken clock, where the hands always point resolutely to 3:15.

In retrospect it is astounding that Ken Starr was thought to be an appropriate choice for independent counsel; his conduct was so  inappropriate it helped destroy the institution. The treatment of Lewinski was flat out abusive.  It was pointed out that his office violated the local bar ethics rules in dealing with her to which he responded those rules didn't apply to the Dept of Justice. It was then pointed out the DoJ ethics rules also barred the conduct, at which point he argued that DoJ rules didn't apply to independent counsels. The impeachment recommendations of his report were so overreaching that if seriously applied probably every President would have to be impeached. Its lead author - Brett Kavanaugh (yes that one) - has since repudiated the work, but Starr is still content to bask in his grotesque hypocrisy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 23, 2020, 01:58:17 pm
I didn't pay much attention to the Clinton impeachment. I didn't understand why the president would stoop to answering questions about his sex life so the whole thing came across as weird.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 02:32:20 pm
Politics amuse me.  Polls come out showing Saunders is in the lead?

Suddenly someone is doing an oppo dump releasing statements Saunders made in the 70s about how Vermont workers were basically just like blacks during slavery.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-once-compared-vermont-workers-to-black-slaves?ref=home&via=twitter_page

Of course while the article tries to make it a race issue, I'm more troubled by the naked communism Saunders was supporting (he wants workers to own the means of production).

Really though, Bernie Saunders as the Democratic candidate is about the only way Trump gets re-elected.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 23, 2020, 02:50:20 pm
Really though, Bernie Saunders as the Democratic candidate is about the only way Trump gets re-elected.

How do you figure? Because of race, or because of leftism?

I see Trump's reelection as a very real possibility, regardless of who gets the Democratic nomination.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 23, 2020, 02:53:53 pm
Yeah I admire your optimism, both that the US population would reject extremism or would dump Trump for any reasonable alternative. :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 02:56:46 pm
Really though, Bernie Saunders as the Democratic candidate is about the only way Trump gets re-elected.

How do you figure? Because of race, or because of leftism?

I see Trump's reelection as a very real possibility, regardless of who gets the Democratic nomination.

Leftism.  Plenty of people are tired of Trump, ready for a return to normalcy.  Only a radical leftist promising a "revolution" would scare them off enough to vote for Trump instead.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on January 23, 2020, 02:58:22 pm
I think Biden rocks Trump. Even if all the negatives about Biden are true (he is too old, too senile, low energy, not all that honest and maybe even with some corrupt family members), they are far more true of Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 23, 2020, 02:59:53 pm
Leftism.  Plenty of people are tired of Trump, ready for a return to normalcy.  Only a radical leftist promising a "revolution" would scare them off enough to vote for Trump instead.

Bernie and Trump's continued strong support indicates otherwise. There will be no normalcy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:01:24 pm
Leftism.  Plenty of people are tired of Trump, ready for a return to normalcy.  Only a radical leftist promising a "revolution" would scare them off enough to vote for Trump instead.

Bernie and Trump's continued strong support indicates otherwise. There will be no normalcy.

Both have their supporters for sure, but it's a limited number.  There's more voters in the middle.  Democrats just have no nominate someone who can appeal to them.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:01:55 pm
I think Biden rocks Trump. Even if all the negatives about Biden are true (he is too old, too senile, low energy, not all that honest and maybe even with some corrupt family members), they are far more true of Trump.

Biden would destroy Trump in the general.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 23, 2020, 03:02:45 pm
Well if he wins the nomination I hope you are right...I also hope he has a very good VP.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 23, 2020, 03:04:20 pm
I think Biden rocks Trump. Even if all the negatives about Biden are true (he is too old, too senile, low energy, not all that honest and maybe even with some corrupt family members), they are far more true of Trump.

Biden would destroy Trump in the general.


Not if the Justice Department charges him with something.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:12:40 pm
Well if he wins the nomination I hope you are right...I also hope he has a very good VP.

VP selection will be important for Biden (and Saunders, who is even older).  And being Dems, you know they can't select a white male for the job.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:14:46 pm
I think Biden rocks Trump. Even if all the negatives about Biden are true (he is too old, too senile, low energy, not all that honest and maybe even with some corrupt family members), they are far more true of Trump.

Biden would destroy Trump in the general.


Not if the Justice Department charges him with something.

The Trump Justice Department charging Biden with a crime would be fantastic for Biden.  "Look how afraid Trump is of me!"  It would just emphasize how destructive Trump has been.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on January 23, 2020, 03:20:29 pm

VP selection will be important for Biden (and Saunders, who is even older).  And being Dems, you know they can't select a white male for the job.

I don't think that his true. Someone selecting a running mate has already won the nomination, after all.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:22:29 pm

VP selection will be important for Biden (and Saunders, who is even older).  And being Dems, you know they can't select a white male for the job.

I don't think that his true. Someone selecting a running mate has already won the nomination, after all.

Not necessarily important for the election - just plain important.  That person has a great chance to be the 2024 nominee - and possibly even the incumbent.

I mean Saunders already had a heart attack!
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 23, 2020, 03:31:11 pm
Why is it important to the candidate that his veep checks a box that will make some people in the party happy but won't help their chances in the general election?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:39:50 pm
Why is it important to the candidate that his veep checks a box that will make some people in the party happy but won't help their chances in the general election?

It's important who they pick because that person has such an excellent chance of becoming President - therefore it's important they select someone good.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on January 23, 2020, 03:45:30 pm
Why is it important to the candidate that his veep checks a box that will make some people in the party happy but won't help their chances in the general election?

It's important who they pick because that person has such an excellent chance of becoming President - therefore it's important they select someone good.

Agree, but i was trying to focus on the part that whoever is nominated wouldn't pick a white male. Maybe they won't--but I don't think that is certain.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 03:50:53 pm
Why is it important to the candidate that his veep checks a box that will make some people in the party happy but won't help their chances in the general election?

It's important who they pick because that person has such an excellent chance of becoming President - therefore it's important they select someone good.

Agree, but i was trying to focus on the part that whoever is nominated wouldn't pick a white male. Maybe they won't--but I don't think that is certain.

I think it's certain.  We'll wait and see!
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 23, 2020, 03:54:56 pm
He's already the black voter favorite, so he doesn't need to shore up support there.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 23, 2020, 04:00:42 pm
Leftism.  Plenty of people are tired of Trump, ready for a return to normalcy.  Only a radical leftist promising a "revolution" would scare them off enough to vote for Trump instead.

As Valmy pointed out, I don't think that is quite true - and I am not sure there is a normalcy to return to.  Quite apart from the fact that leftism may no longer be the bugbear that it once was in American politics, the dynamics have changed.  I think the campaigning is going to matter quite a bit. Whatever campaign or candidate the Democrats produce, the accusations of extremism and leftism have been sown, and well-sown. The Dem candidate will have to either shrug off these accusations, or run with them - once again, having to confront reacting to the Republican smears (as they always do), rather than produce their own message.

The problem with the moderate message, is always that it is way harder to define clearly, and way harder to find a good candidate capable of spinning it into a clear, positive trait (FWIW, I think Mayor Pete did that well). I think Biden would be horrible at this - much like Hilary was the worse possible candidate to oppose Trump. Not because of lack of skill, but rather because she was fighting the previous war.

And, with that being said, I have yet to meet "moderate" conservatives who are debating voting for Trump. Conservatives that I meet are already firmly in the camp - in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe there are on Languish, but I don't think the board's profile is a representative demographics.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 23, 2020, 04:09:07 pm
And, with that being said, I have yet to meet "moderate" conservatives who are debating voting for Trump. Conservatives that I meet are already firmly in the camp - in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe there are on Languish, but I don't think the board's profile is a representative demographics.

It's not conservatives - but rather those middle class white voters in the midwest.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 23, 2020, 04:11:46 pm
It's not conservatives - but rather those middle class white voters in the midwest.

Those, I have met. And the sort of speech that Sanders give is far from being anathema to them. Sanders is certainly more "readable" to them, than most other Democratic candidates.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 23, 2020, 04:25:58 pm
Who is this Saunders guy you keep posting about BB?

 :P
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on January 23, 2020, 04:59:19 pm
I see Trump's reelection as a very real possibility, regardless of who gets the Democratic nomination.
Agree. Trump's got a good economy and no wars - that the Democrats is a remarkable indication of how divisive/unpopular he is.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sanders won though. I always think one President tends to be a reaction to the previous and I can certain see a Trump-Sanders reaction.

Quote
It's not conservatives - but rather those middle class white voters in the midwest.
I think Sanders and Biden are both the re-build the red wall/working class candidates. I think Buttigieg and Warren are the ones who are going for the college educated, middle class white vote. So I'm not sure that matters necessarily.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 23, 2020, 05:03:22 pm
And, with that being said, I have yet to meet "moderate" conservatives who are debating voting for Trump. Conservatives that I meet are already firmly in the camp - in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe there are on Languish, but I don't think the board's profile is a representative demographics.

I know a bunch of people in that camp, although I admit they may not be highly representative.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 23, 2020, 05:04:03 pm
I think Buttigieg and Warren are the ones who are going for the college educated, middle class white vote.

Buttigieg's ads are trying to position him as the guy who cares about midwestern working class folks.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on January 23, 2020, 05:05:23 pm
The problem with the moderate message, is always that it is way harder to define clearly, and way harder to find a good candidate capable of spinning it into a clear, positive trait (FWIW, I think Mayor Pete did that well). I think Biden would be horrible at this - much like Hilary was the worse possible candidate to oppose Trump. Not because of lack of skill, but rather because she was fighting the previous war.
I also think like Hilary - and this is unfair on him - Biden would have an issue drawing a moral contrast on corruption with Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 23, 2020, 05:07:40 pm
Yep.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 23, 2020, 05:44:36 pm
I think Biden rocks Trump. Even if all the negatives about Biden are true (he is too old, too senile, low energy, not all that honest and maybe even with some corrupt family members), they are far more true of Trump.

Biden would destroy Trump in the general.


Not if the Justice Department charges him with something.

The Trump Justice Department charging Biden with a crime would be fantastic for Biden.  "Look how afraid Trump is of me!"  It would just emphasize how destructive Trump has been.


Being charged with a crime is never a positive for anyone.  A bunch of people will only know that Biden was VP and is now under indictment.  That is the whole point of the impeachment thing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 23, 2020, 05:49:34 pm
I would go further than Oex and say there is no going back.  This is the new normal.  I don't know what this new era of American politics portends, but the era we all lived through for the last four decades is over.  The Republican party is now a nationalist party.  I don't know what the Democratic party will become.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 23, 2020, 06:00:14 pm
I don't know what the Democratic party will become.

They don't either.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on January 23, 2020, 09:14:08 pm
And, with that being said, I have yet to meet "moderate" conservatives who are debating voting for Trump. Conservatives that I meet are already firmly in the camp - in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe there are on Languish, but I don't think the board's profile is a representative demographics.

I know a bunch of people in that camp, although I admit they may not be highly representative.

FWIW, I'd still say that I'm the most conservative poster here, and I think I've made it quite clear that I'll never vote for Trump.  Though I don't consider myself a "moderate" conservative, whatever that means (and I'm sure no 2 posters here would say it means the same thing).
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 24, 2020, 09:37:44 am
FWIW, I'd still say that I'm the most conservative poster here, and I think I've made it quite clear that I'll never vote for Trump.  Though I don't consider myself a "moderate" conservative, whatever that means (and I'm sure no 2 posters here would say it means the same thing).

:yeahright:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on January 24, 2020, 11:18:57 am
FWIW, I'd still say that I'm the most conservative poster here, and I think I've made it quite clear that I'll never vote for Trump.  Though I don't consider myself a "moderate" conservative, whatever that means (and I'm sure no 2 posters here would say it means the same thing).

:yeahright:

Care to elaborate on that "yeahright"?  Are you suggesting that you're more conservative than I am (which I'll agree isn't unreasonable) or is there something else in my post you are skeptical about?  If you think I actually did vote for Trump in 2016 you may be confusing me with derspiess.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 24, 2020, 11:21:44 am
FWIW, I'd still say that I'm the most conservative poster here, and I think I've made it quite clear that I'll never vote for Trump.  Though I don't consider myself a "moderate" conservative, whatever that means (and I'm sure no 2 posters here would say it means the same thing).

:yeahright:

Care to elaborate on that "yeahright"?  Are you suggesting that you're more conservative than I am (which I'll agree isn't unreasonable) or is there something else in my post you are skeptical about?  If you think I actually did vote for Trump in 2016 you may be confusing me with derspiess.

No you're got it.  I'm challenging your claim to be the most conservative poster on Languish.   :elvis:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Grey Fox on January 24, 2020, 11:22:48 am
It's neither of you.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 24, 2020, 01:33:31 pm
Ancient Demon maybe? Or Chipwich.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 24, 2020, 02:08:42 pm
So, there are now tapes of Trump giving orders to those weird little Russian guys that Trump denies knowing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on January 24, 2020, 07:20:36 pm
Of course there is, but it won't matter.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on January 24, 2020, 07:31:10 pm
I don't know what the Democratic party will become.

They don't either.
Yeah. I've no idea for the Democrats.

I was listening to a podcast on the history of the politics of abortion which was fascinating. And they were saying it was useful because of how it showed how contingent these very fixed political trenches and views are. They didn't think there could be a great switcheroo of parties and positions like - as they argued - occurred in roughly 72 to 82. But part of me wonders if we're at the start of a similar era of big tectonic shifts and, in twenty years time, we'll look back in disbelief that it was ever any other way.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on January 25, 2020, 05:04:35 am
Ugh...even if the impeachment wasn't DoA, Schiff is such an ineloquent dope that his closing arguments could kill a plausible case.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2020, 07:19:04 pm
Ugh...even if the impeachment wasn't DoA, Schiff is such an ineloquent dope that his closing arguments could kill a plausible case.

 :huh:

Everyone's been praising his performance, even GOP partisans who are absolutely going to vote to acquit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 25, 2020, 07:30:03 pm
He seemed okay to me.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 25, 2020, 07:55:23 pm
Ugh...even if the impeachment wasn't DoA, Schiff is such an ineloquent dope that his closing arguments could kill a plausible case.

 :huh:

Everyone's been praising his performance, even GOP partisans who are absolutely going to vote to acquit.

Not sure why Tonitrus expects excitement from a Senate hearing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 25, 2020, 08:50:17 pm
Look we are just going through the motions in this Senate hearing. We are just getting all the shit Trump did in the record and sounding the alarm about his abuse of power. We know this is going nowhere as far as convicting him.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Zoupa on January 26, 2020, 01:53:06 pm
And yet Trump's approval is at 43.1% today. It has not moved the needle at all.

I guess Hillary was right about the basket of deplorables.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on January 26, 2020, 02:20:24 pm
In some sense the court of public opinion has already judged Donald Trump's impeachment. That's part of his persona. Everyone has a strong opinion of him. No one cares about the Senate trial and no one is watching the Senate trial because everyone already has formed their own verdict, and everyone knows this Senate won't vote to convict.

The real trial is in November.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 26, 2020, 02:28:54 pm
In some sense the court of public opinion has already judged Donald Trump's impeachment. That's part of his persona. Everyone has a strong opinion of him. No one cares about the Senate trial and no one is watching the Senate trial because everyone already has formed their own verdict, and everyone knows this Senate won't vote to convict.

The real trial is in November.

Its a good point.  And especially since there will be no evidence.  It is all just argument, opinion and political judgments.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on January 26, 2020, 02:39:09 pm
Really though, Bernie Saunders as the Democratic candidate is about the only way Trump gets re-elected.

Trump will likely get re-elected no matter what.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 26, 2020, 02:42:40 pm
Its a good point.  And especially since there will be no evidence.  It is all just argument, opinion and political judgments.

There is an enormous amount of evidence. The House filed their trial record yesterday. 

The irony is that only evidence that is missing is the evidence that in theory could establish Trump's defense.  I.e. the only defense that could conceivably exist is that Mulvaney and his OMB deputies went completely rogue and ordered impoundment of funds on their own initiative without Presidential authorization.  Of course that didn't happen which is why we are the Alice in Wonderland position of the prosecution demanding the evidence about Trump's defense, while the defense seeks desparately to hide the only evidence that could conceivably substantiate their position.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 26, 2020, 02:46:29 pm
Does any of this matter? It has already been established that the POTUS can do what the fuck he wants and no one will give a shit until maybe years later when it's too late. It has already been established that the GOP takes its orders from the Kremlin. It has already been established that the US is a fucking joke.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 26, 2020, 02:50:45 pm
Does any of this matter? It has already been established that the POTUS can do what the fuck he wants and no one will give a shit until maybe years later when it's too late. It has already been established that the GOP takes its orders from the Kremlin. It has already been established that the US is a fucking joke.

Ok but there are still some hearsay objections to be resolved.  Priorities, man.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 26, 2020, 02:51:24 pm
Does any of this matter? It has already been established that the POTUS can do what the fuck he wants and no one will give a shit until maybe years later when it's too late. It has already been established that the GOP takes its orders from the Kremlin. It has already been established that the US is a fucking joke.

Ok but there are still some hearsay objections to be resolved.  Priorities, man.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 26, 2020, 02:57:08 pm
Its a good point.  And especially since there will be no evidence.  It is all just argument, opinion and political judgments.

There is an enormous amount of evidence. The House filed their trial record yesterday. 

I thought I read a couple of days ago that the Senate was not going to allow the filing of the evidence that was obtained during the impeachment inquiry.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 26, 2020, 03:00:40 pm
The resolution was changed - the House impeachment record will be presumptively admitted subject to the right of defense to raise evidentiary objections to exclude.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 26, 2020, 03:23:53 pm
The resolution was changed - the House impeachment record will be presumptively admitted subject to the right of defense to raise evidentiary objections to exclude.

Thanks  :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 26, 2020, 03:45:57 pm
During the impeachment Republicans kept demanding the whistle blower to testify.  I haven't heard anything from the Senate indicating they want the whistle blower to testify.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 26, 2020, 03:59:55 pm
What I don't get is if Bolton is willing to testify, why he doesn't just tell his story on air.

Maybe there are national security laws that say people can't discuss classified matters with the media, but can if subpoenaed by Congress?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on January 26, 2020, 04:01:32 pm
What I don't get is if Bolton is willing to testify, why he doesn't just tell his story on air.

Maybe there are national security laws that say people can't discuss classified matters with the media, but can if subpoenaed by Congress?

The man has a sense of drama and decor. Just look at his mustache.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 26, 2020, 04:38:55 pm
What I don't get is if Bolton is willing to testify, why he doesn't just tell his story on air.

Maybe there are national security laws that say people can't discuss classified matters with the media, but can if subpoenaed by Congress?

The man has a sense of drama and decor. Just look at his mustache.

That and he wants a big pay day on a book deal.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2020, 01:54:30 pm
Romney says we should hear from Bolton.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on January 27, 2020, 02:01:40 pm
Roose? Ramsay? Michael?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Sheilbh on January 27, 2020, 02:35:00 pm
What I don't get is if Bolton is willing to testify, why he doesn't just tell his story on air.

Maybe there are national security laws that say people can't discuss classified matters with the media, but can if subpoenaed by Congress?
It might impact book sales?

That was certainly the vibe I got from the denial about the NYT story being coordinated:
Quote
"Ambassador John Bolton, Simon & Schuster, and Javelin Literary categorically state that there was absolutely no coordination with the New York Times or anyone else regarding the appearance of information about his book, THE ROOM WHERE IT HAPPENED, at online booksellers. Any assertion to the contrary is unfounded speculation."
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 27, 2020, 03:03:53 pm
Roose? Ramsay? Michael?

Walrus.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2020, 03:06:35 pm
Note to self: never tell Shelf you're writing a book.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on January 27, 2020, 03:22:30 pm
The man has a sense of drama and decor. Just look at his mustache.
He looks just like my dad did before my dad grew a full beard. :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Hamilcar on January 27, 2020, 04:10:29 pm
Guys, I think they are going to successfully impeach president Hunter Biden....
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2020, 04:11:42 pm
Guys, I think they are going to successfully impeach president Hunter Biden....

I've got no problem with that.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 28, 2020, 08:12:47 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxLSurvFVN0

Mitch tells closed room of Republicans votes to block witnesses are not there.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: katmai on January 28, 2020, 08:14:56 pm
YET
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 28, 2020, 08:21:48 pm
AND HE WON'T GET THEM IN TIME
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 28, 2020, 10:16:39 pm
GOP seems to be moving towards "Yes, he did it, but that's not impeachable."  If this isn't impeachable, what is?  What other recourse is there?  This is very frustrating.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: chipwich on January 28, 2020, 11:13:19 pm
Ancient Demon maybe? Or Chipwich.

I'm not conservative.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 28, 2020, 11:27:13 pm
GOP seems to be moving towards "Yes, he did it, but that's not impeachable."  If this isn't impeachable, what is?  What other recourse is there?  This is very frustrating.

There is no other recourse...well the Supreme Court could declare something he did unconstitutional but that takes awhile.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 28, 2020, 11:28:01 pm
Ancient Demon maybe? Or Chipwich.

I'm not conservative.

You appear to be a Cossack or some kind.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 29, 2020, 12:16:24 am
Ancient Demon maybe? Or Chipwich.

I'm not conservative.

My mistake then.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on January 29, 2020, 12:22:40 am
Ancient Demon maybe? Or Chipwich.

I'm not conservative.

My mistake then.

And I'm not sure that Ancient Dragon even post here much anymore.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: garbon on January 29, 2020, 12:27:16 am
Ancient Demon maybe? Or Chipwich.

I'm not conservative.

My mistake then.

And I'm not sure that Ancient Dragon even post here much anymore.

Well his last post was a week ago.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 29, 2020, 12:35:38 am
Black Dragon hasn't posted here in quite a while though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 29, 2020, 01:13:33 am
GOP seems to be moving towards "Yes, he did it, but that's not impeachable."  If this isn't impeachable, what is?  What other recourse is there?  This is very frustrating.

There is no other recourse...well the Supreme Court could declare something he did unconstitutional but that takes awhile.

All I really want is for Trump to stop trying to bring in foreign interference into our election.  That honestly doesn't seem like too an big ask.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 29, 2020, 03:10:21 am
Do you know any Trump supporters personally Raz?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Maladict on January 29, 2020, 04:12:33 am
Black Dragon hasn't posted here in quite a while though.

ussdefiant hasn't logged in since 2009.  :(
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 05:24:01 am
Black Dragon hasn't posted here in quite a while though.

ussdefiant hasn't logged in since 2009.  :(

:(
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on January 29, 2020, 07:39:24 am
GOP seems to be moving towards "Yes, he did it, but that's not impeachable."  If this isn't impeachable, what is?  What other recourse is there?  This is very frustrating.

There is no other recourse...well the Supreme Court could declare something he did unconstitutional but that takes awhile.

LOL
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 29, 2020, 10:10:21 am
Do you know any Trump supporters personally Raz?


Sure.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 29, 2020, 02:58:37 pm
So now a Quid Pro Quo is not impeachable because re-electing Trump is in the best interests of the country.  I figured we would get to this point.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on January 29, 2020, 10:33:43 pm
So now a Quid Pro Quo is not impeachable because re-electing Trump is in the best interests of the country.  I figured we would get to this point.
The King can do no wrong. :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 30, 2020, 05:25:12 am
The King can do no wrong. :)

That's pretty much the final argument of the Trump defense team:  that, since Trump believes that his re-election is on the national interest, he can use the official power of the executive to ensure his re-election.  Even when what he does is expressly illegal.

I wonder why the issue of hiding the transcript and tape of the conversation by declaring it SCI never came up.  That was the original complaint of the whistle blower.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 08:25:15 am
Jay Sekulow and Jason Schwartzman, separated at birth?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 30, 2020, 09:10:56 am
Jay Sekulow and Jason Schwartzman, separated at birth?

Separated even before birth.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 30, 2020, 10:10:15 am
Jay Sekulow and Jason Schwartzman, separated at birth?

Both of them could fit at the same time into the suit Sekulow was wearing yesterday.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 01:14:15 pm
I let out a little gasp when I saw Roberts refuse to read Rand's question.  Hope Rand tells us what the question was. :o

I was watching on CBS in a car dealership waiting room (oil change) and the other three people there seemed monumentally indifferent to the procedings.  Take that for what you will.

I am furious with the Democrats for refusing to address the Hunter Biden/corruption narrative.  The were given the perfect chance to explain that Joe was leaning on Ukraine to oust the Attorney General who was *impeding* corruption investigation into Burisma, after Roberts gave their side 2 1/2 minutes to respond to the defense's answer to a question (was this another case of Roberts leaning into the Democrats side), but instead of debunking they just trotted out the canned speech about any focus on Hunter distracting from the main focus.  I just don't get it.  They've done what I consider to be questionable moves during the inquiry and impeachment process, but this one just boggles my mind.  They're acting just like people who have something to hide.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HVC on January 30, 2020, 01:19:18 pm
I let out a little gasp when I saw Roberts refuse to read Rand's question.  Hope Rand tells us what the question was. :o

I heard it wasn't read because it named the whistle blower. true?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 01:20:17 pm
I heard it wasn't read because it named the whistle blower. true?

You've got more of the skinny than I do.  That would make sense though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 01:54:53 pm
There are questions addressed to both sides but only answered by one.  Is that Roberts throwing his weight around?  One side (usually/always?) defense ducking the question and Roberts letting it go?

Roberts has shut down Schiff a couple times.  Seems to be when he switches from arguing the case to preaching.

I'd love to see someone bring a motion to overrule Roberts.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 30, 2020, 02:04:17 pm
I heard it wasn't read because it named the whistle blower. true?

You've got more of the skinny than I do.  That would make sense though.

That's what a bunch of outlets are saying.  This appears to be a longstanding issue.

I don't get Rand Paul's motives in sticking his nose so far up Trump's ass. He's coming off as an absolute fruitcake.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 02:33:58 pm
Sen. Collins question co-signed by three GOP senators.  More signalling of not being a rubber stamp.  :ph34r:

I'm seeing real chances of a moral victory, simple majority votes for conviction, short of 2/3.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 30, 2020, 02:41:00 pm
Sen. Collins question co-signed by three GOP senators.  More signalling of not being a rubber stamp.  :ph34r:

I'm seeing real chances of a moral victory, simple majority votes for conviction, short of 2/3.

What did she ask?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on January 30, 2020, 02:41:08 pm
I heard it wasn't read because it named the whistle blower. true?

You've got more of the skinny than I do.  That would make sense though.

That's what a bunch of outlets are saying.  This appears to be a longstanding issue.

I don't get Rand Paul's motives in sticking his nose so far up Trump's ass. He's coming off as an absolute fruitcake.

It is rather surreal...it seems like after Trump punked him with some personal jabs way back in the GOP primary debates, he turned full prison-bitch.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 02:43:28 pm
They're on break now.

CBS says 1) Rand tried the same whistleblower outing stunt yesterday and 2) he stormed out of the chamber after Roberts punked him and read the question out loud to the press in the lobby.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 30, 2020, 02:45:47 pm
Rand Paul? Jesus fucking Christ. Et tu Rand?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 02:54:07 pm
One of the heads on the CBS halftime show made the point that any senator could have objected to Roberts not reading Rand's question and brought on a procedural vote, but no one did.

What the hell is Chris Christie doing on this show?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 30, 2020, 02:54:14 pm
WB should sue the bastard.  Shouldn't be covered by the S&D clause.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 30, 2020, 03:22:26 pm
If they want to ask about the Whistle Blower they can just subpoena him/her.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 30, 2020, 03:29:59 pm
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/01/30/chief_justice_roberts_refuses_to_ask_rand_pauls_question_with_alleged_whistleblowers_name.html

Chief Justice maintains integrity of the process.  :)

where is the link to Paul reading it in the gallery.  I agree with MInsky - no privilege applies there.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 03:40:07 pm
Probability that Trump will be convicted has leapt from 8% to 9%!  :w00t:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 03:43:25 pm
WB should sue the bastard.  Shouldn't be covered by the S&D clause.

Wouldn't that just call more attention to the WB?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 30, 2020, 03:59:00 pm
If they have already been outed, what is the downside?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 04:03:58 pm
If they have already been outed, what is the downside?

They haven't been fully outed.  A name is out there, but that person has neither confirmed nor denied being the whistleblower.

If that person sues, it then removes all doubt.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 30, 2020, 04:05:10 pm
There is a case pending about a House subpoena to get documents relating to the census.

The DOJ lawyer representing the Trump administration argued that the Court didn't have the authority to enforce the subpoena.

When asked what recourse the House would have, the DOJ lawyer said: impeachment.

If Kafka designed a banana republic it would be the USA under Trump.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 04:07:19 pm
This going after the whistleblower is also really fucking annoying.

I sometimes have to deal with Confidential Informant cases.  It's really the same principle.  We can't rely on the CI to prove our case.  All the CI is point us in a particular direction.  Our case is made up of whatever OTHER information police discover.

The WB here is immaterial.  There is ample other evidence.  But Trumpists are attacking the WB just to discourage anyone else from daring to come forward.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 04:12:24 pm
But Trumpists are attacking the WB just to discourage anyone else from daring to come forward.

They're attacking the WB so they can feed the deep state, never Trump, everyone hates us narrative.

Manchin signals he's on side by lead authoring a softball question about any trials that don't have witnesses.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 05:05:53 pm
Man there's a lot of repetition in the questions.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 30, 2020, 05:07:02 pm
Side effect of journalism + grandstanding.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 05:12:55 pm
*Ted Cruz* co-authors a question about Hillary being impeached under the theory that she requested information from a foreign source (Steele's Russian contacts).   :lol:

That's chutzpah baby!

Dems totally booted the answer.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on January 30, 2020, 05:22:56 pm
I don't get Rand Paul's motives in sticking his nose so far up Trump's ass. He's coming off as an absolute fruitcake.
I think Pauls have been Russia's useful idiots long before it was in fashion.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 05:44:46 pm
And they're off to dinner.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 30, 2020, 06:20:11 pm
*Ted Cruz* co-authors a question about Hillary being impeached under the theory that she requested information from a foreign source (Steele's Russian contacts).   :lol:

That's chutzpah baby!

Dems totally booted the answer.

Hillary can't be impeached because she's not in office.  The only way anyone could get impeached, if using Steele was an impeachable offense, is if the person who paid Steele was currently a sitting US junior senator from Texas.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2020, 09:26:17 pm
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 09:30:06 pm
I'm  laying 5/4 we see at least one witness.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 09:35:38 pm
Is it possible the Democrats have been stonewalling on Hunter to increase his value as trade bait?  Like get a two for one?  That would be devilish clever.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 30, 2020, 10:59:17 pm
Bet withdrawn.  Lamar Alexander is a no on witnesses, no on conviction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shw_6ZLCcRw
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 30, 2020, 11:02:24 pm
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2020, 06:07:55 am
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on January 31, 2020, 07:01:44 am
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November

They'll make up for it in Russian and federal government help.
DOJ suddenly opening investigations into their opponents, hackers compromising their systems, etc.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: mongers on January 31, 2020, 07:32:21 am
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November

They'll make up for it in Russian and federal government help.
DOJ suddenly opening investigations into their opponents, hackers compromising their systems, etc.

Hilarious, but not at all unlikely.   <_<
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Savonarola on January 31, 2020, 08:42:49 am
And a brand new idiom from Trump as reported in CNN: (https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-trial-01-30-20/h_3ac57ddb55ac955e811b6921c026cd07)

Quote
As his impeachment trial continued into the night, President Trump in Iowa attacked Rep. Adam Schiff, the lead impeachment manager from the House.

"Shifty Schiff is a very sick person,” the President told the crowd in Des Moines.

“He lies awake at night shifting and turning. Shifting,” Trump said, turning his arm in circles. “Shifting and turning in his bed, sweating like a dog.”

Trump then launched into a very animated impression of Schiff, crying, “‘How am I going to get him? How am I going to get him, he didn’t do anything wrong!’”

“Oh what a sick guy he is,” the President said to cheers and laughs from the crowd.

So... :unsure:  That means he doesn't sweat at all?  :unsure:  Or, just sweats a tiny bit out of his hands and feet, and is otherwise completely dry?  :unsure:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on January 31, 2020, 08:53:26 am
Is it possible the Democrats have been stonewalling on Hunter to increase his value as trade bait?  Like get a two for one?  That would be devilish clever.

I don't get why the republicans don't want witnesses. They can invite Bolton, who is going to say what he is going to say regardless of whether he is called to testify, and then they can invite people like Hunter Biden and maybe even explore the Hillary angle that Cruz brought up.  :lol:

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 31, 2020, 09:31:56 am
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November


I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 31, 2020, 09:34:10 am
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November

We'll see. Any who might be trouble for this, I suspect have already hedged and weaseled around it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on January 31, 2020, 10:00:44 am
I don't get why the republicans don't want witnesses. They can invite Bolton, who is going to say what he is going to say regardless of whether he is called to testify, and then they can invite people like Hunter Biden and maybe even explore the Hillary angle that Cruz brought up.  :lol:

The Republicans don't want witnesses because they know that they'd get nothing from Hunter Biden.  Bringing him in means bringing him in front of Chief Justice Roberts, who isn't going to allow the kinds of fishing expeditions that would be necessary to get HB to say anything of use to the Republicans (even assuming that he has anything that would be of use to them). 

If Bolton isn't under oath, the Republicans can dismiss the truth as "just trying to sell a book."  If he IS under oath, then they would be obliged to consider his testimony when reaching a verdict.

The key to the Republicans escaping this bind is to make sure that the truth remains hidden.  They have to face the voters soon, and an OJ-like acquittal isn't going to sit well with those voters.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 31, 2020, 10:15:11 am
I agree with Grumbler -_-
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 31, 2020, 01:28:40 pm
Alexander's reasoning is consistent if horrifying in its implications.  Murkowski's statement OTOH makes zero sense.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2020, 02:04:06 pm
Murkowski was right about Elizabeth Warren asking a dumbass question.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on January 31, 2020, 02:13:18 pm
What did she ask? I have no doubt it was stupid, mind.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2020, 02:15:12 pm
Something like, given the low trust the American public has for institutions like the Supreme Court, do you think Chief Justice Roberts actions here are lowering that trust even further.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on January 31, 2020, 02:41:47 pm
Statements as questions are really stupid.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2020, 02:50:23 pm
There's that, but that was 90% of the "questions" asked.  What got me about Warren's was she was screaming at a ref who had called one foul on the GOP and none on her team.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 31, 2020, 03:31:40 pm
Alexander's reasoning is consistent if horrifying in its implications.  Murkowski's statement OTOH makes zero sense.

If nothing else, the impeachment has caused many Republicans to admit they want an all-powerful President.  I never thought I would say it, but we are moving towards elected despotism.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 31, 2020, 03:37:01 pm
What did she ask? I have no doubt it was stupid, mind.

Quote
“At a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith in government, does the fact that the Chief Justice is presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican senators have thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy of the Chief Justice, the Supreme Court, and the Constitution?”


That was indeed idiotic.  The Chief Justice is doing what he is constitutionally mandated to do.  Carrying out that office does not bring him, the Court or the Constitution into disrepute.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 31, 2020, 04:27:06 pm
Something like, given the low trust the American public has for institutions like the Supreme Court, do you think Chief Justice Roberts actions here are lowering that trust even further.

No it wasn't that - the question didn't attack Roberts, it attacked the GOP Senators for creating a process that would reflect badly on him:

Quote
"At a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith in government, does the fact that the chief justice is presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican senators have thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy of the chief justice, the Supreme Court, or Constitution?

It's still a stupid and unadvisable question but not as bad as Yi's version would make it sound.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on January 31, 2020, 04:51:20 pm
I don't get why the republicans don't want witnesses. They can invite Bolton, who is going to say what he is going to say regardless of whether he is called to testify, and then they can invite people like Hunter Biden and maybe even explore the Hillary angle that Cruz brought up.  :lol:

The Republicans don't want witnesses because they know that they'd get nothing from Hunter Biden.  Bringing him in means bringing him in front of Chief Justice Roberts, who isn't going to allow the kinds of fishing expeditions that would be necessary to get HB to say anything of use to the Republicans (even assuming that he has anything that would be of use to them). 

If Bolton isn't under oath, the Republicans can dismiss the truth as "just trying to sell a book."  If he IS under oath, then they would be obliged to consider his testimony when reaching a verdict.

The key to the Republicans escaping this bind is to make sure that the truth remains hidden.  They have to face the voters soon, and an OJ-like acquittal isn't going to sit well with those voters.

All that, and they want to end this quick...letting in witnesses could extend the whole thing another couple weeks.  Even the squishy Republicans know that for better or worse...the quicker this is concluded, the more likely it could be forgotten come election time.  A gamble for sure...but perhaps the lesser of two evils in their calculation. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2020, 05:01:23 pm
Motion for witnesses defeated 51-49.  Collins and Romney yes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on January 31, 2020, 05:13:05 pm
Have the twitter attacks on them started yet?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 31, 2020, 06:15:40 pm
That was probably within the first couple hours of Twitter's existence.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 31, 2020, 06:22:18 pm
I wonder if we accomplished anything useful during this.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 31, 2020, 07:19:59 pm
I wonder if we accomplished anything useful during this.

I think so. We performed an investigation and established a record of the President's illegal activities and sanctioned him. Investigating and annoying the executive is, in my mind, a good use of the Congress' time. As a real check to the Presidency it is pretty weak though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on January 31, 2020, 08:13:01 pm
aka, you've demonstrated the emptiness of the Constitution.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2020, 08:19:10 pm
aka, you've demonstrated the emptiness of the Constitution.

The Constitution lays out the process for the impeachment; it doesn't guarantee you'll get the outcome you deserve.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2020, 08:29:04 pm
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November


I doubt it.

For some reason people act like 2018 never happened
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2020, 08:31:01 pm
https://twitter.com/SenSchumer/status/1223415745935265794
Quote
At 11am—I said truth will eventually come out

Little did we know lightning would soon strike

Bolton says he sat with Pres. Trump, Mulvaney, Giuliani, & Cipollone: They talked about letting Ukraine's president know they wanted sham political investigations

Truth will come out
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 31, 2020, 10:08:10 pm
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November


I doubt it.

For some reason people act like 2018 never happened


How many Senator's did the Republicans lose back in 2018?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2020, 11:12:57 pm
Seems crazy that they're going to fall on their sword like this for Trump and not even vote for witnesses. The last poll I saw had even 70% of Republicans in favor of witnesses.


That's not falling on the sword.  That's protecting their interests.  Why would they want witnesses?  They don't need more evidence that they need to ignore.
They're going to suffer for this decision in November


I doubt it.

For some reason people act like 2018 never happened

If all 100 senators were up for a vote they would have lost a bunch, but that isn't how the senate works as you well know. It's all about the geography of the 34 seats up for election and this year the geography favors the Democrats
How many Senator's did the Republicans lose back in 2018?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on January 31, 2020, 11:18:37 pm
Well we'll see if the same dynamics happen in 2020.

But we didn't crush the Republicans in 2018, it was no 2010. We just bloodied their noses a bit. They could easily turn the tables right back in 2020, whereas we still haven't full recovered from the multistate beating we got in 2010.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on January 31, 2020, 11:57:15 pm
I supported the impeachment, I thought it was important to make a stand.  It was a moral civic duty.  But what happens after that? Trump knows that nothing can touch him.  He can do whatever he wants, and I mean anything.  By acquitting the President the Senate have made themselves complicit.  They overlooked a major abuse of power.  Now they can't stand up to the President and claim whatever he does is wrong because it would mean an admission that they fucked up the impeachment.  Hell, at this point he could start throwing journalists in jail and nobody will stop him.  If the courts demand he releases them he can just ignore them like he ignores house subpoenas.  At this point what can we do?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on February 01, 2020, 12:04:12 am
Pretty much, yeah.

And the Democrats should be screaming bloody murder. Instead, they are tsk-tsking and throwing their hands in the air, while comedians - who, at least are calling out the Republicans for the authoritarian cult they are - are doing it for the laughs.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on February 01, 2020, 12:08:18 am
The Constitution lays out the process for the impeachment; it doesn't guarantee you'll get the outcome you deserve.

Of course, otherwise it wouldn't be a Constitution. It's a vessel. It's just been emptied of all meaning, to remain as a lifeless totem.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on February 01, 2020, 12:39:22 am
Any constitution is ultimately just a piece of paper.  What comes of it is entirely up to the people governed by it.  When a critical majority of people think that they're in a mortal fight that transcends constitution, they'll wipe their ass with it and think they're doing the only reasonable thing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2020, 12:50:14 am
The reality we live in is that absent a major realignment of parties such as 68 or 72, no Republican president will ever be impeached, for anything.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2020, 12:57:52 am
The Constitution lays out the process for the impeachment; it doesn't guarantee you'll get the outcome you deserve.

Of course, otherwise it wouldn't be a Constitution. It's a vessel. It's just been emptied of all meaning, to remain as a lifeless totem.

Disagree.  It still holds the meaning that 67 votes to convict means he's gone.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2020, 01:19:22 am
4 hours of senators saying their piece, than a final vote on Wednesday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfPQALBwZTY

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on February 01, 2020, 03:09:11 am
I read "A Very Stable Genius", a book that came out earlier this month, written by two WaPo reporters.  It didn't paint a pretty picture.  Trump really did want to throw reporters in jail.  I wonder if he will actually try it.  He's a spiteful man, and he will try to get back at people for the impeachment.  This will get worse, and I don't know how it will get better.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 01, 2020, 07:48:47 am
Any constitution is ultimately just a piece of paper.  What comes of it is entirely up to the people governed by it.  When a critical majority of people think that they're in a mortal fight that transcends constitution, they'll wipe their ass with it and think they're doing the only reasonable thing.

It is up to the people who are elected to perform their sworn duties under the constitution.  The failure of two of the branches of your government to do that is what renders the constitution an empty vessel. 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on February 01, 2020, 08:03:58 am
Democracy in the USA is finished. I stated so a couple weeks ago, and some of you disagreed. We knew Trump was corrupt, but now we know the Senate is too. We knew the outcome of this impeachment, but by not allowing even one key witness (Bolton), the whole process was a sham. And this is just the end of the beginning. If Trump gets four more years, you're really doomed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on February 01, 2020, 08:39:26 am
Any constitution is ultimately just a piece of paper.  What comes of it is entirely up to the people governed by it.  When a critical majority of people think that they're in a mortal fight that transcends constitution, they'll wipe their ass with it and think they're doing the only reasonable thing.

It is up to the people who are elected to perform their sworn duties under the constitution.  The failure of two of the branches of your government to do that is what renders the constitution an empty vessel.
They would’ve done their duty if they knew that’s what their voters demanded.  However, their voters demanded the opposite, a blank check to Trump to do anything.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 01, 2020, 09:04:55 am
Again, it's the OJ Simpson trial all over again:  a defendant obviously guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and a jury desperate to find some reason, any reason, to acquit.

The Constitutional provisions for impeachment, like any other element of the Constitution, assumes that those responsible for executing its provisions will act in good faith, especially as regards checks and balances.  That can no longer be assumed, at least as far as the Republican party is concerned.

The question is:  how many voters will recognize that fact, come November?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on February 01, 2020, 10:18:47 am
Presuming that there will still be significantly support for Trump and his sycophants come November, what has to happen for this deep division in the American political landscape to mend?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 01, 2020, 11:52:36 am
Any constitution is ultimately just a piece of paper.  What comes of it is entirely up to the people governed by it.  When a critical majority of people think that they're in a mortal fight that transcends constitution, they'll wipe their ass with it and think they're doing the only reasonable thing.

It is up to the people who are elected to perform their sworn duties under the constitution.  The failure of two of the branches of your government to do that is what renders the constitution an empty vessel.
They would’ve done their duty if they knew that’s what their voters demanded.  However, their voters demanded the opposite, a blank check to Trump to do anything.

There is not much separating that logic with the Republican position that there should not be an impeachment only an election.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Berkut on February 01, 2020, 11:58:31 am
Any constitution is ultimately just a piece of paper.  What comes of it is entirely up to the people governed by it.  When a critical majority of people think that they're in a mortal fight that transcends constitution, they'll wipe their ass with it and think they're doing the only reasonable thing.

It is up to the people who are elected to perform their sworn duties under the constitution.  The failure of two of the branches of your government to do that is what renders the constitution an empty vessel.
They would’ve done their duty if they knew that’s what their voters demanded.  However, their voters demanded the opposite, a blank check to Trump to do anything.

The state based setup of the electoral college and the Senate is really turning into a problem. I don't see any practical way to fix it.

You are right though - the Senate is catering to their voters. And the fact that they only need to cater to about 35% of all the voters is resulting in this rather broken system.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Benedict Arnold on February 01, 2020, 01:15:29 pm
Presuming that there will still be significantly support for Trump and his sycophants come November, what has to happen for this deep division in the American political landscape to mend?
Violence and bloodshed I fear.  I don't see anything else truly making a difference.  Hopefully riots, protests, and small scale things only and not a full blown collapse.  This isn't just about Trump.  It goes much deeper.  He's merely a symptom of the disease and not the disease itself.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on February 01, 2020, 02:32:14 pm
Presuming that there will still be significantly support for Trump and his sycophants come November, what has to happen for this deep division in the American political landscape to mend?
Violence and bloodshed I fear.  I don't see anything else truly making a difference.  Hopefully riots, protests, and small scale things only and not a full blown collapse.  This isn't just about Trump.  It goes much deeper.  He's merely a symptom of the disease and not the disease itself.

Nothing

Lines have been draw. Identities taken and given. Both side view each other as the enemy. 

All that's left is for the shots to be fired.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on February 01, 2020, 02:38:13 pm
Except that both sides don't view the other as an enemy.  The right openly discusses civil war.  They are stockpiling arms for the day when "the tree of liberty is watered with the blood of patriots.  The left is, for the most party, simply clueless about the hatred animating the right.


The only realistic chance to remove Trump from office would be for a state to bring charges against him.  That seems unlikely though and of dubious legality.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: 11B4V on February 01, 2020, 02:45:23 pm
Except that both sides don't view the other as an enemy.  The right openly discusses civil war.  They are stockpiling arms for the day when "the tree of liberty is watered with the blood of patriots.  The left is, for the most party, simply clueless about the hatred animating the right.


The only realistic chance to remove Trump from office would be for a state to bring charges against him.  That seems unlikely though and of dubious legality.

I'll disagree with that. I agree to disagree.

As far as the second paragraph; not going to happen. Trump has already proved the government is powerless to enforce the rule of law if a corrupt President is backed by a morally and ethically corrupt party.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2020, 06:49:24 pm
Collins says she will vote to acquit.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: katmai on February 04, 2020, 08:27:12 pm
But of course.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on February 04, 2020, 10:35:24 pm
This is a surprise? She’s been playing that faux-moderate/true coward card for a while now.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on February 05, 2020, 01:16:16 pm
Romney voting to convict. Holy hell.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 05, 2020, 01:17:02 pm
Romney voting to convict. Holy hell.

Holy hell indeed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 05, 2020, 01:19:16 pm
Romney voting to convict. Holy hell.

One left in the party who can still say the emperor has no clothes.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 05, 2020, 01:37:15 pm
And the last tattered, moldy, stink-ridden fig leaf covering the shame of GOP - that this is was a 100% purely "partisan" impeachment  - falls.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on February 05, 2020, 01:43:04 pm
And the last tattered, moldy, stink-ridden fig leaf covering the shame of GOP - that this is was a 100% purely "partisan" impeachment  - falls.

Meh - they'll just pillory Romney as a RINO NeverTrumper.  Needed a few more Rs to vote for removal to make it a stronger argument.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 05, 2020, 01:50:01 pm
Romney is invincible in Utah, he gives no shits.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 05, 2020, 01:50:45 pm
Romney is invincible in Utah, he gives no shits.

Or more to the point.  He does.  :)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 05, 2020, 01:53:12 pm
Meh - they'll just pillory Romney as a RINO NeverTrumper.  Needed a few more Rs to vote for removal to make it a stronger argument.

"They" can say whatever they want, of course, but the "purely partisan" label fails by definition.

The utter cowardice of the Republican senate does demonstrate, though, that the party is utterly irredeemable and must be replaced, not reformed.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 05, 2020, 01:59:18 pm
And the last tattered, moldy, stink-ridden fig leaf covering the shame of GOP - that this is was a 100% purely "partisan" impeachment  - falls.

Meh - they'll just pillory Romney as a RINO NeverTrumper.

That's like fake Mel Gibson Scotsmen making a No True Scotsman argument against a real Scotsman.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 05, 2020, 02:02:38 pm
That's like fake Mel Gibson Scotsmen making a No True Scotsman argument against a real Scotsman.

I like it, but the fake Scotsmen are never going to figure this out.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 05, 2020, 02:03:48 pm
That's like fake Mel Gibson Scotsmen making a No True Scotsman argument against a real Scotsman.

Yes, it is kinda ironic that the Republican party has sacrificed every principal on which it was founded in order to serve the venal interests of a man who isn't even a Republican.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tonitrus on February 05, 2020, 02:22:14 pm
That's like fake Mel Gibson Scotsmen making a No True Scotsman argument against a real Scotsman.

Yes, it is kinda ironic that the Republican party has sacrificed every principal on which it was founded in order to serve the venal interests of a man who isn't even a Republican.

Definitely on immigration...

http://www.americanyawp.com/reader/the-sectional-crisis/1860-republican-party-platform/

Quote
14. That the Republican party is opposed to any change in our naturalization laws or any state legislation by which the rights of citizens hitherto accorded to immigrants from foreign lands shall be abridged or impaired; and in favor of giving a full and efficient protection to the rights of all classes of citizens, whether native or naturalized, both at home and abroad.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 05, 2020, 03:20:26 pm
Manchin votes guilty.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on February 05, 2020, 03:44:28 pm
That's like fake Mel Gibson Scotsmen making a No True Scotsman argument against a real Scotsman.

Yes, it is kinda ironic that the Republican party has sacrificed every principal on which it was founded

Ouch.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on February 05, 2020, 03:48:06 pm
Oh, and good night America. Wherever the fuck you're at.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on February 05, 2020, 06:16:27 pm
Oh, and good night America. Wherever the fuck you're at.

I guess we have to wait 5 years for president pence.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 05, 2020, 06:49:58 pm
or 10 - and the Trump can run again.  Putin told him how to do it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 05, 2020, 07:21:00 pm
Did you see the State of the Union Address? The President does these weird little things when he talks like he has had a stroke. I don't know if he can keep going much longer than 5 years. Putin is five years younger and not obese.

Though Russians on the internet keep telling me this is a fake Putin and real one was replaced by a double at some point  :lol: :tinfoil:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 05, 2020, 08:50:38 pm
I just heard the claim on the 538 podcast (via youtube) that Romney is the first senator in US history to vote to convict a president of his own party.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 05, 2020, 09:03:31 pm
I just heard the claim on the 538 podcast (via youtube) that Romney is the first senator in US history to vote to convict a president of his own party.

Wow. That is quite an honor Mitt. Good for you.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tyr on February 06, 2020, 02:29:56 am
Ah corruption
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 06, 2020, 04:51:07 am
I just heard the claim on the 538 podcast (via youtube) that Romney is the first senator in US history to vote to convict a president of his own party.

Well, it's not like there have been tons of opportunities!
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 06, 2020, 07:39:33 am
It is interesting to me that Romney voted for removal for abuse of power, but rejected the idea that the President's power should be checked by a Congress able to investigate possible presidential wrongdoing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Maximus on February 06, 2020, 08:51:56 am
It is interesting to me that Romney voted for removal for abuse of power, but rejected the idea that the President's power should be checked by a Congress able to investigate possible presidential wrongdoing.
Yea, I thought that was odd too.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on February 06, 2020, 08:55:36 am
I don't know...if he considered the case proved in the house, do you really need witnesses for a trial if the defense doesn't want them?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 06, 2020, 10:12:08 am
It is interesting to me that Romney voted for removal for abuse of power, but rejected the idea that the President's power should be checked by a Congress able to investigate possible presidential wrongdoing.

I don't find that surprising. I don't think raising privilege objections is an impeachable offense even if those objections are not well-founded in law and unlikely to prevail.  If the objections were overruled in Court and the President still refused to permit compliance, that would be a different story, but that did not happen.

That said, I personally would have voted to convict on that article because of the argument Trump's Justice Department made in the Census case a few days ago - that the Court lacked the power to enforce a House subpoena but that it could use impeachment as a remedy. In combination with the stonewalling of the impeachment inquiries, it rises to such a level of bad faith as to justify conviction on the charge.  But I don't think the question is as clear cut as the first article.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 06, 2020, 11:53:49 am

I don't find that surprising. I don't think raising privilege objections is an impeachable offense even if those objections are not well-founded in law and unlikely to prevail.  If the objections were overruled in Court and the President still refused to permit compliance, that would be a different story, but that did not happen.

The president never raised any privilege objections, only unlimited Article II powers objections. 

Quote
That said, I personally would have voted to convict on that article because of the argument Trump's Justice Department made in the Census case a few days ago - that the Court lacked the power to enforce a House subpoena but that it could use impeachment as a remedy. In combination with the stonewalling of the impeachment inquiries, it rises to such a level of bad faith as to justify conviction on the charge.  But I don't think the question is as clear cut as the first article.

Correct.  Trump's refusal was based on his claim that the President is able to do whatever he wants, subject only to impeachment, because the President was not subject to the courts.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 06, 2020, 12:26:21 pm
The president never raised any privilege objections, only unlimited Article II powers objections. 

it's a claim of executive privilege.  A ridiculous and unsustainable claim, but a claim nonetheless.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on February 06, 2020, 12:32:56 pm
"The only one that voted against was a guy that can't stand the fact that he ran one of the worst campaigns in the history of the presidency."
- Trump, speaking to Republicans.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 06, 2020, 12:42:29 pm
I don't know...if he considered the case proved in the house, do you really need witnesses for a trial if the defense doesn't want them?

If you look at the impeachment trial as if it resembled some kind of legitimate legal proceeding rather than a farce with lawyers talking, then McConnell really backed the GOP Senators into a corner. The defense based on evidentiary sufficiency blew up for good once Bolton resurfaced.  Voila - any questions about the evidence could be resolved by simply taking the testimony of witness with first hand knowledge ready, willing and able to testify - a witness no longer in the Executive Branch and thus no longer subject to Presidential orders to keep away.  The only way to pivot out of that outcome was to embrace Dershowitz's argument that it didn't matter because the articles did not state a viable offense.  The Dershowitz theory - to which the Senate irrevocably committed in denying the Bolton testimony - is the equivalent to the old common law demurrer - a plea in which the defendant agrees not to contest the factual sufficiency of the evidence but attacks the charge purely as a matter of law. At that point, it doesn't matter what the House proved or didn't prove - only whether the conduct alleged by the House managers comprises impeachable conduct.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on February 06, 2020, 12:51:44 pm
"The only one that voted against was a guy that can't stand the fact that he ran one of the worst campaigns in the history of the presidency."
- Trump, speaking to Republicans.
Trump is perhaps the biggest piece of shit in American history. :mad:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on February 06, 2020, 04:20:20 pm
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/481919-graham-when-i-die-god-isnt-going-to-ask-why-didnt-you-convict-trump

Quote
Graham: When I die God isn't going to ask 'Why didn't you convict Trump?'

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said that when he dies, God isn’t going to ask him why he didn’t convict President Trump.

The South Carolina senator told Fox News’ the Brian Kilmeade Show that he used his God-given “common sense” to decide to acquit the president in the “easiest decision I ever had to make.”

“It was politically driven, it was driven by people who are not looking for the truth," he said. "They hate Trump, they were gonna impeach him the day he got elected and if you can't see through this, you know, your religion is clouding your thinking here."

Graham was responding to Sen. Mitt Romney’s (R-Utah) reference to his religion in his announcement of his decision to convict President Trump on the abuse of power charge.

“When I go to meet God at the pearly gates I don't think he's going to ask me, 'Why didn't you convict Trump?'” Graham said. “I may be wrong, but I don't think that's gonna be at the top of the list. I'll have a lot to answer for, but this was clearly an effort to destroy Trump."

The senator also added he likes Romney and has “always liked him.”

“I appreciate the fact that he’s helped the Republican agenda,” he said. “He’s going to help us continue to build up the military, cut taxes and reform the government, I hope.”

Romney has been facing a slew of backlash from GOP lawmakers and the president after becoming the only Republican to vote to convict Trump on a charge. The senator seemed to choke up during his announcement.

“I am a profoundly religious person. I take an oath before God as enormously consequential. I knew from the outset that being tasked with judging the president, the leader of my own party, would be the most difficult decision I have ever faced,” he said.

Trump was ultimately acquitted of both articles of impeachment after the inquiry and trial had taken over Washington for months. The president celebrated his acquittal Thursday, holding up a newspaper with the front-page headline declaring him not guilty.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 06, 2020, 04:22:22 pm
"The only one that voted against was a guy that can't stand the fact that he ran one of the worst campaigns in the history of the presidency."
- Trump, speaking to Republicans.
Trump is perhaps the biggest piece of shit in American history. :mad:

I dunno, he's not the only contender;  there's John C. Calhoun, George Lincoln Rockwell, Charles Manson, and a few others. 

Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 06, 2020, 04:28:17 pm
Lindsey is making an unwarranted assumption ;)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Malthus on February 06, 2020, 04:29:33 pm
Lindsey is making an unwarranted assumption ;)

Down, not up.   :D
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 06, 2020, 04:30:41 pm
My Christian theology is a bit shaky but I'm pretty sure putting yourself in league with the Antichrist points one in a more southerly direction.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 06, 2020, 04:32:42 pm
Lindsey is making an unwarranted assumption ;)

Nah, I'm sure he'll die at some point.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Barrister on February 06, 2020, 04:40:17 pm
Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.

Andrew Jackson?  Andrew Johnson?

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 06, 2020, 04:55:58 pm
Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.

Andrew Jackson?  Andrew Johnson?



Jackson isn't as bad as some people think;  the man certainly had his faults both as a person and as a political leader, but a lot of his bad rep came from propaganda put out by his political opponents.  Johnson was in over his head as President, but I don't see how that makes him a piece of shit as a person--as a person, Lyndon was worse than Andrew, but a much better President.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on February 06, 2020, 05:05:46 pm
Video juxtaposition of Trump and Clinton's acquittal speeches.

https://twitter.com/vicenews/status/1225531263643267072?s=20
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 06, 2020, 05:15:15 pm
If the discussion is limited to character traits Donald is clearly the worst.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on February 06, 2020, 07:21:04 pm
Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.

Andrew Jackson?  Andrew Johnson?



Jackson isn't as bad as some people think;  the man certainly had his faults both as a person and as a political leader, but a lot of his bad rep came from propaganda put out by his political opponents.  Johnson was in over his head as President, but I don't see how that makes him a piece of shit as a person--as a person, Lyndon was worse than Andrew, but a much better President.


Andrew Johnson's problem wasn't that he was over his head, it was that he was trying to sabotage reconstruction.  He was a piece of shit as a person.  He was known to be spiteful, cruel, and jealous.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 06, 2020, 08:37:46 pm
Being a vindictive populist contrarian was what caused him to stay loyal to the Union in the first place. Johnson didn't so much love the Union as he hated the southern planter class.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 06, 2020, 09:35:44 pm
Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.

Andrew Jackson?  Andrew Johnson?



Jackson isn't as bad as some people think;  the man certainly had his faults both as a person and as a political leader, but a lot of his bad rep came from propaganda put out by his political opponents.
He committed ethnic cleansing, owned slaves, and caused a massive recession by destroying the national bank.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 06, 2020, 09:36:57 pm
He committed ethnic cleansing, owned slaves, and caused a massive recession by destroying the national bank.

Yes but he also led a revolution for the common (white) man and stuff.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 06, 2020, 09:37:51 pm
He committed ethnic cleansing, owned slaves, and caused a massive recession by destroying the national bank.

Yes but he also led a revolution for the common (white) man and stuff.
Enlarging suffrage and extending the vote is good, but it doesn't overcome the above.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 06, 2020, 09:41:41 pm
He committed ethnic cleansing, owned slaves, and caused a massive recession by destroying the national bank.

Yes but he also led a revolution for the common (white) man and stuff.
Enlarging suffrage and extending the vote is good, but it doesn't overcome the above.

No but it balances it out somewhat.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on February 06, 2020, 10:21:10 pm
And now Trump retaliates.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-07/white-house-weighs-ouster-of-aide-who-testified-against-trump
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on February 06, 2020, 10:21:45 pm
Have to agree with Tim. Jackson was definitely the worst piece of shit to serve as President.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 06, 2020, 11:30:35 pm
Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.

Andrew Jackson?  Andrew Johnson?



Jackson isn't as bad as some people think;  the man certainly had his faults both as a person and as a political leader, but a lot of his bad rep came from propaganda put out by his political opponents.
He committed ethnic cleansing, owned slaves, and caused a massive recession by destroying the national bank.

He didn't commit ethnic cleansing, and lots of people in his time owned slaves.  If you want to judge him by that, you have to condemn Washington, Jefferson, and lots of other of the founding fathers, too. 

I do agree with you on the Bank of the US, mostly because so much of his motivation in opposing it was just pettiness.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: viper37 on February 07, 2020, 12:18:29 am
Among people who actually held the office of President, though, no one comes close to matching him for the title.

Andrew Jackson?  Andrew Johnson?



Jackson isn't as bad as some people think;  the man certainly had his faults both as a person and as a political leader, but a lot of his bad rep came from propaganda put out by his political opponents.
He committed ethnic cleansing, owned slaves, and caused a massive recession by destroying the national bank.

He didn't commit ethnic cleansing,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears#Historical_context
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on February 07, 2020, 12:38:23 am
And now Trump retaliates.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-07/white-house-weighs-ouster-of-aide-who-testified-against-trump

Of course. The Godking requires absolute loyalty.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Oexmelin on February 07, 2020, 01:00:24 am
I'll just reiterate that people really need to show up and participate to the mobilization against Trumpism (and generally against authoritarianism). Otherwise we are in for a rougher ride.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Tamas on February 07, 2020, 03:07:35 am
I'll just reiterate that people really need to show up and participate to the mobilization against Trumpism (and generally against authoritarianism). Otherwise we are in for a rougher ride.

Politics have devolved into reality TV entertainment. Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him. He'll be your ruler 'til the day he dies.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: katmai on February 07, 2020, 04:53:20 am
I haven’t listened to an audio recording of him in three years cause he is batshit insane. So no idea what the fuck you are going on about you carpetbagging Hungarian.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on February 07, 2020, 05:01:50 am
Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him.

That is true, yeah. He's remarkable in that regard.

Now that impeachment has predictably failed, it turns out that the Dems lost a vulnerable member in the House, fired up the Republican base for November, increased Trump's poll numbers and managed only to damage Biden in the process.  :hmm: But yeah, Trump's Wikipedia page will FOREVER mention his impeachment.

Add in this caucus fiasco and Jesus, they're going to get him reelected.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 07, 2020, 05:08:00 am
I'd like to see evidence for the claim that the Republican base is more "fired up" than before.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 05:14:29 am
Politics have devolved into reality TV entertainment. Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him. He'll be your ruler 'til the day he dies.

None of these Trumpeter assertions are actually true.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: DGuller on February 07, 2020, 06:13:28 am
Politics have devolved into reality TV entertainment. Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him. He'll be your ruler 'til the day he dies.

None of these Trumpeter assertions are actually true.
Yeah, I have no idea what Tamas is on about.  I don’t listen to Trump except when I’m involuntarily exposed to that, and I try my best avoiding discussion of anything he said with others.  It is patently obvious as to what’s up with him, so any further energy expended on reacting to him is wasted.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on February 07, 2020, 08:12:57 am
I'll just reiterate that people really need to show up and participate to the mobilization against Trumpism (and generally against authoritarianism). Otherwise we are in for a rougher ride.

Politics have devolved into reality TV entertainment. Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him. He'll be your ruler 'til the day he dies.

Trump is one of the few people that I simply can't stand listening to.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on February 07, 2020, 08:43:42 am
In this day and age of endless entertainment options, why would anyone select the President to watch?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on February 07, 2020, 08:47:47 am
The disappointing turnout I'd chalk up more to times being pretty darn good, economically speaking, for people disposed to going to a caucus. Middle-class whites thinking "Eh, I'm doing okay considering this moron is in office. Let other people sort out the nominee and I'll think about it more in November."

The base showed up, evidenced by the fact that Bernie "won" the caucuses.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 09:02:27 am
The disappointing turnout I'd chalk up more to times being pretty darn good, economically speaking, for people disposed to going to a caucus.

Are they though? I mean they were in 2016 as well but I kept hearing about how the tiny unemployement rate was not the real unemployment rate and vast areas of the country were collapsing and dying due to the decline in manufacturing and capital all fleeing to the tech centers and big cities. Vast parts of the country were awash in meth and despair which is why they all wanted to vote for Trump. But I guess all those problems have been solved since 2016?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on February 07, 2020, 09:20:40 am
This is just anecdotal but I was in Iowa recently to visit the in-laws and everything seemed on the up-and-up. Lots of new construction for businesses and new jobs around.

The economy is going well in general and has been since before Trump, though. We'll see how it looks later on in the year.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 09:24:05 am
This is just anecdotal but I was in Iowa recently to visit the in-laws and everything seemed on the up-and-up. Lots of new construction for businesses and new jobs around.

The economy is going well in general and has been since before Trump, though. We'll see how it looks later on in the year.

Right. The parts of the economy that were already doing well have continued to do well. I know anecdotally farming has been hit hard by the trade way though.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 09:33:20 am
Farming has been ht by the trade wars, and then, additionally, some farmers have been badly hit by the deregulation of pesticides.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 07, 2020, 10:04:43 am
Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him.

That is true, yeah. He's remarkable in that regard.

It's a lot like being in a crowded subway when a mentally disturbed person begins ranting.  It is hard not too listen.

That is not a sarcastic comment BTW.  If you took the Trump that made yesterday's "speech", made him anonymous and put him in plain clothes in the middle of NYC, it would be a matter of hours before the police picked him up for a commitment hearing.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 10:09:44 am
The president never raised any privilege objections, only unlimited Article II powers objections. 

it's a claim of executive privilege.  A ridiculous and unsustainable claim, but a claim nonetheless.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on whether Trump invoked executive privilege without specifically invoking it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 07, 2020, 10:10:59 am
Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him.

That is true, yeah. He's remarkable in that regard.

It's a lot like being in a crowded subway when a mentally disturbed person begins ranting.  It is hard not too listen.

That is not a sarcastic comment BTW.  If you took the Trump that made yesterday's "speech", made him anonymous and put him in plain clothes in the middle of NYC, it would be a matter of hours before the police picked him up for a commitment hearing.

Yeah, at one point I wasn't sure if he was nuts or just trolling the public, but at this point I really don't care.  If he wants to say crazy shit, treat him as deranged, even if he was just trolling.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Syt on February 07, 2020, 10:22:46 am
At this point I'm tired and fatigued by the constant barrage of right wing spin, propaganda, and "alternative facts" that appears ot be dominating the political discourse in many countries these days.

FWIW I'm coming to the point where I don't particularly think any of it matters any more, because in 20, 30 years we'll have more pressing matters to handle. That said, the current political climate makes me quite wary of what's to come once shit hits the fan.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on February 07, 2020, 10:30:34 am
Have to agree with Tim. Jackson was definitely the worst piece of shit to serve as President.
Trump's term isn't over yet though. :sleep:
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 07, 2020, 10:31:11 am
The president never raised any privilege objections, only unlimited Article II powers objections. 

it's a claim of executive privilege.  A ridiculous and unsustainable claim, but a claim nonetheless.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on whether Trump invoked executive privilege without specifically invoking it.

The important part is that the President claimed he didn't have to comply with the House's demands.  That should have been allowed to play out in the courts before being added as an article of impeachment.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Caliga on February 07, 2020, 10:33:51 am
Enlarging suffrage and extending the vote is good, but it doesn't overcome the above.
Maybe not, but at least Jackson did SOMETHING positive.  Name one positive thing Trump has done. :contract:

Also, before being President, Jackson was a great general.  Trump was a con artist.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Maximus on February 07, 2020, 10:59:14 am
Politics have devolved into reality TV entertainment. Even people who hate Trump can't stop listening to him. He'll be your ruler 'til the day he dies.

None of these Trumpeter assertions are actually true.
Yeah, I have no idea what Tamas is on about.  I don’t listen to Trump except when I’m involuntarily exposed to that, and I try my best avoiding discussion of anything he said with others.  It is patently obvious as to what’s up with him, so any further energy expended on reacting to him is wasted.
Pretty much exactly this.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 11:35:17 am
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on whether Trump invoked executive privilege without specifically invoking it.

The important part is that the President claimed he didn't have to comply with the House's demands.  That should have been allowed to play out in the courts before being added as an article of impeachment.

But the reason for such a claim is important. 

Prior to Trump, the executive branch of government held that it was subject to Congressional oversight, with the exception of specific subjects that the President claimed were privileged because their release to Congress would be detrimental to the nation's interests or would constitute congressional interference in the executive as opposed to oversight.

The Trump administration does not claim it has the power to protect specific documents and subjects via the claim of privilege, but, rather, that the President's power is unlimited until the moment he is convicted after impeachment.  Therefor, the Trumpeters say, the president is free to refuse to cooperate in congressional oversight for any reason or none (ditto for any duty to obey court rulings); checks and balances are subject only to the whim of the chief executive.

Congressional Republicans have endorsed the President-as-dictator-until-impeached-and-convicted model in spite of their oaths to "preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States."
 
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 11:38:19 am
Also, before being President, Jackson was a great general.  Trump was a con artist.

Jackson as a great general is as big a lie as Jackson as a great president.  The Battle of New Orleans was an amusing example of two bumbling generals striving mightily to outbumble each other, with Pakenham finally winning.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 11:41:17 am
Also, before being President, Jackson was a great general.  Trump was a con artist.

Jackson as a great general is as big a lie as Jackson as a great president.  The Battle of New Orleans was an amusing example of two bumbling generals striving mightily to outbumble each other, with Pakenham finally winning.

Jackson did succeed against the Creek nation which had been kicking the shit out of the Georgia militia for a few years.

I mean he may not have been a great general, but he was a successful one...especially by US 1812 standards.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: FunkMonk on February 07, 2020, 11:52:29 am
My favorite little bit of Jacksonian history is when he invaded Spanish Florida with a small army without official sanction and murdered Indians and runaway slaves as well as two British citizens.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 12:26:23 pm
My favorite little bit of Jacksonian history is when he invaded Spanish Florida with a small army without official sanction and murdered Indians and runaway slaves as well as two British citizens.

The American people always appreciate a man who can get things done. Official sanctions are for wimps, as are Supreme Court decisions.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: alfred russel on February 07, 2020, 12:37:17 pm
I kind of don't get the strong current vogue of Jackson hate. The case against him seems to be "slavery and indian removal". Neither of those are good by any stretch--but the slavery angle was there for many presidents of the era and indian removal was just around 60k total people. definitely not a trivial number, but in the grand scheme of atrocities against native americans in the western world, not a standout either.

In the centuries it took to effectively extinguish native American political influence in the territory of the current US and reduce them from the dominant population to a rounding error in the census, the only major political leader that seems to be tarnished in current public opinion by the process is Jackson. That strikes me as bizarre.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 12:46:55 pm
I think because Jackson screwed people who had attempted to work with the United States and adopt our ways and sought to fight for their rights in our court system. I mean the Cherokee and the Creeks and so forth were troublesome politically with their pesky insistance upon land ownership but they were certainly not dangerous by that point. I mean I don't approve what happened to the Apaches but I get that both the Mexicans and Americans were terrified of them.

Plus by evicting the Creeks, Jackson helped give birth to Alabama. What a shameful legacy.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on February 07, 2020, 01:07:01 pm
Eh, I'm on board with AR here; I don't find Jackson's military record or his Presidency particularly amazing signs of great strategic/tactical ability or great administrative ability. BUT, I think Jackson "hate" by the modern left appears to essentially have been generated at random and perpetuated by a weird echo chamber.

The stuff Jackson is criticized for, all American Presidents in some fashion or another, were guilty of for much of our early history. All of our early Presidents treated Indians like shit, conducted wars against them etc. All of our early Presidents if not slaveowners directly, were not hardcore abolitionists or looking to upset the union by doing anything about slavery. The Adamses were deeply against it personally but were political pragmatists who never would've raised serious issue about it as it'd have doomed their political careers.

To my mind the skills Jackson actually had were in self-promotion and politicking. These aren't always skills that correlate with being a good President, but they usually correlate with becoming President. I think the reason Jackson was venerate so much at one time is because of the mythos largely built by him and his backers, and it was passed down generation to generation. Another thing was Jackson was basically a rough hick in upbringing and personal life, even though he was personally a wealthy landowner by the time he became President. In an era where American politics were much less democratic than they are today, he was seen as being the first common man President, and seen as ushering in an age of greater democratization.

I think his real record is pretty average, with a few huge blunders (like nuking the Bank of the United States.)
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 01:13:01 pm
The Adamses were deeply against it personally but were political pragmatists who never would've raised serious issue about it as it'd have doomed their political careers.

Well both Adams did do that at various times (particularly JQ Adams, that was his #1 issue for the latter part of his career), but the Constitutional situation was really different for John Adams as the can had been kicked down the road by the Constitutional convention.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 01:33:00 pm
I don't see how the Jackson revisionists can argue that Jackson was just like every other president, no matter how popular equivelentism has gotten among the intellectual lazy.

Jackson made decisions that he knew were illogical and contrary to national interests (such as destroying the value of US currency) purely for populist reasons.  He stopped essentially all infrastructure development that his own cronies were not profiting from.  He was Trumpian in his disdain for any attempts to exert the constitutional checks and balances, and his establishment of the political spoils system corrupted far more administrations than just his own.

Jackson has a list of positive accomplishments, of course, particularly his sponsorship of universal manhood suffrage, the use of super-inflation to pay off the national debt, and appointing probably the worst Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, but these only partially outweigh the negative aspects of his presidency, no matter what his revisionist fans say.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on February 07, 2020, 01:54:25 pm
no matter how popular equivelentism has gotten among the intellectual lazy.





I love this line!  I will use it next time someone makes a "Both Side!" argument.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Habbaku on February 07, 2020, 01:57:57 pm
Complete with grumbleresque misspellings?
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 07, 2020, 02:24:17 pm
The great political challenge for the US in the first half of the 19th century was generating sufficient capacity for national governance and administration to manage a rapidly expanding territory in an era just emerging from medieval-era transport and communication technology.  Jackson's policy was to reconfigure the national government to push the accelerator on territorial expansion while weakening the capacity of the national government in virtually every other domain.  The legacy of that policy was a national government in the 1840s and 1850s that with the exception of mail delivery, was unfit for organizing common national efforts and projects outside of waging war, brutalizing native peoples, and empowering interstate vigilante gangs seeking to kidnap African-Americans seeking refuge in free states.

It is of course a myth that the Civil War was caused by a conflict between national authority and "states rights" with the significant exception of the effort of slave states to employ unprecedented federal authority to run roughshod over Northern state liberties in the 1850s. However, it took the Civil War to create the political space to partially reverse the corrosive legacy of Jacksonianism and create something resembling a functional state with a proper currency and the ability to put in place a national transport and communications infrastructure.   Even then, the effort was incomplete and it would not be until the institutional and constitutional revolution spanning the two Roosevelt presidencies that the job would be completed.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: dps on February 07, 2020, 02:48:17 pm
I think because Jackson screwed people who had attempted to work with the United States and adopt our ways and sought to fight for their rights in our court system. I mean the Cherokee and the Creeks and so forth were troublesome politically with their pesky insistance upon land ownership but they were certainly not dangerous by that point. I mean I don't approve what happened to the Apaches but I get that both the Mexicans and Americans were terrified of them.

Plus by evicting the Creeks, Jackson helped give birth to Alabama. What a shameful legacy.

Jackson didn't actually evict the Creeks and other tribes involved.  He allowed the states to evict them, which isn't quite the same thing.

Would have been good if he'd been as willing to stand up to the states on the issue as he was during the Nullification Crisis.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on February 07, 2020, 02:56:27 pm
The Adamses were deeply against it personally but were political pragmatists who never would've raised serious issue about it as it'd have doomed their political careers.

Well both Adams did do that at various times (particularly JQ Adams, that was his #1 issue for the latter part of his career), but the Constitutional situation was really different for John Adams as the can had been kicked down the road by the Constitutional convention.

I barely acknowledge JQ's time in the U.S. House, no President matters once out of the office.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on February 07, 2020, 03:04:58 pm
I don't see how the Jackson revisionists can argue that Jackson was just like every other president, no matter how popular equivelentism has gotten among the intellectual lazy.

I don't know that anyone did, other than to say that the things the left has been going after him over (usually stuff relating to Indians, sometimes slaves), was common policy of most early Presidents.

Quote
Jackson made decisions that he knew were illogical and contrary to national interests (such as destroying the value of US currency) purely for populist reasons.  He stopped essentially all infrastructure development that his own cronies were not profiting from.  He was Trumpian in his disdain for any attempts to exert the constitutional checks and balances, and his establishment of the political spoils system corrupted far more administrations than just his own.

Eh, Adams let Hamilton manipulate him heavily for the first couple years of his Presidency, including the constitutionally shameful advocacy for and signing of the Alien and Sedition Acts. Madison let profiteers in the western states more or less brain wash him into thinking a disastrous war with the United Kingdom was a good idea. The string of mostly poor Presidents (in some respects Polk being an outlier) between Jackson and Lincoln is filled with alcoholics, Confederates, and general incompetents content to fiddle and do nothing as the slavery issue increasingly incensed the country and lead to the civil war.

But at the end of the day I don't really know anyone in the real world who looks at and complains about Jackson on the sort of metrics historians normally use when analyzing a Presidency. It's always about the Indian removals, which just weren't really a thing distinct to Jackson.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 03:06:40 pm
Well most of those guys are not celebrated as one of our greatest Presidents. That is why Jackson gets shit on. John Tyler is not on the $20 bill.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on February 07, 2020, 03:30:17 pm
Well most of those guys are not celebrated as one of our greatest Presidents. That is why Jackson gets shit on. John Tyler is not on the $20 bill.

I don't really know that Jackson has been celebrated that way since the early 20th century. He's not on Mt. Rushmore, he has no significant national monument in D.C. etc. He is on the $20, but Alexander Hamilton is on the $10, Grant is on the $50, etc. Lot of silly people have been on the money.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 07, 2020, 03:30:28 pm
Complete with grumbleresque misspellings?

Sure.  If you can find them, feel free to use them. They are not copyrighted or anything.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on February 07, 2020, 03:47:09 pm
It's a lot like being in a crowded subway when a mentally disturbed person begins ranting.  It is hard not too listen.

Yeah, Trump mostly offends me on an aesthetic level. He's too New York, too orange. Otherwise I love his brash, offensive Twitter comedy, he is the world's best heel. His enemies follow him much like he's their favourite soap opera villain. And he has this almost animalistic low cunning when it comes to unerringly honing in on his opponent's weakest point, to brutally shank between the ribs. And to top it off he's blessed with an economy that renders Obama as this rather disappointing Black Carter in retrospect. That has to sting the most for average TDS lunatic writing for the NYT, WAPO; CNN; MSDNC, etc....

Btw, if it comes down to Bernie or Trump and my dear American languishbrahs decide to renew their subscription to the Trump Show, you're still great folks in my book. Just be warned second terms kinda suck, usually.

Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 07, 2020, 03:59:56 pm
And to top it off he's blessed with an economy that renders Obama as this rather disappointing Black Carter in retrospect.

That's clearly not true.  Job growth, GDP growth and the S&P 500 growth are all slightly below the trend of the Obama presidency.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2020, 04:11:24 pm
It's always about the Indian removals, which just weren't really a thing distinct to Jackson.

It's very distinct to Jackson.  The Civilized Nations had "gone white" in an attempt to accomodate to a nation they knew they couldn't resist militarily.  The Cherokee fought alongside whites against other Indians.  They dressed white, they planted and raised animals, they participated in the white economy.  They didn't raid or steal or kill.  They were ethnically cleansed not because they were a threat but because they were different looking and Jackson's white trash voting base wanted to grab their land.  And of course Jackson ignored a Supreme Court ruling.

Jackson should go down in infamy because it was the one significant ocaisson when Indians said we'll follow all your rules and they got fucked for it.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Legbiter on February 07, 2020, 04:15:07 pm
And to top it off he's blessed with an economy that renders Obama as this rather disappointing Black Carter in retrospect.

That's clearly not true.  Job growth, GDP growth and the S&P 500 growth are all slightly below the trend of the Obama presidency.

Obama can never get enough credit for righting the ship at just the right moment. He did just fine with what he inherited from moron Dubya. US presidents don't generally get enough credit for not wrecking things while in office.

The American public is just now feeling the effects of the recovery however. Kinda like here.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Razgovory on February 08, 2020, 03:49:15 am
It would appear that Trumps economic pledge on the economy will be unfulfilled.  He pledged 4 consecutive quarters of 4% growth.  Maybe even 5 or 6% growth.  That hasn't happened, but he has managed to convince many of the stupider segments of the population that he has.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Brain on February 08, 2020, 04:18:38 am
God's greatest trick was convincing people that he exists.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 08, 2020, 10:48:16 am
It would appear that Trumps economic pledge on the economy will be unfulfilled.  He pledged 4 consecutive quarters of 4% growth.  Maybe even 5 or 6% growth.  That hasn't happened, but he has managed to convince many of the stupider segments of the population that he has.

About 49% of Americans
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Josephus on February 08, 2020, 02:29:26 pm
It would appear that Trumps economic pledge on the economy will be unfulfilled.  He pledged 4 consecutive quarters of 4% growth.  Maybe even 5 or 6% growth.  That hasn't happened, but he has managed to convince many of the stupider segments of the population that he has.

About 49% of Americans

Not necessarily He's got 49 per cent support, yes, but not because of his economic policies.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 08, 2020, 02:34:59 pm
The estimate was based on the level of intelligence required to support this president.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 08, 2020, 03:01:16 pm
It would appear that Trumps economic pledge on the economy will be unfulfilled.  He pledged 4 consecutive quarters of 4% growth.  Maybe even 5 or 6% growth.  That hasn't happened, but he has managed to convince many of the stupider segments of the population that he has.

He meant to say debt.  Trump often confuses increases in debt with increases in wealth, as anyone familiar with his business career and its trail of ruin and bankruptcy well knows.  Replace "growth" with "debt" and its a promise kept! Deficits well over 4% stretching indefinitely into the future.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2020, 03:31:10 pm
IIRC he inherited deficits of 3.5 and grew them to 6.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: Valmy on February 08, 2020, 04:34:16 pm
He promised to balance the budget also and that his tax plan would help the middle class and hurt the rich. He lies.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 08, 2020, 07:08:29 pm
He promised to balance the budget also and that his tax plan would help the middle class and hurt the rich. He lies.

He is obviously playing the long game.  He wants to hurt the rich by completely undermining Liberal Democracy, concentrating wealth and radicalizing the non .001% to create the conditions necessary to create a true socialist state thereby balancing the budget.  It is genius.  Pure genius.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: grumbler on February 08, 2020, 07:37:44 pm
He is obviously playing the long game.  He wants to hurt the rich by completely undermining Liberal Democracy, concentrating wealth and radicalizing the non .001% to create the conditions necessary to create a true socialist state thereby balancing the budget.  It is genius.  Pure genius.

 :yes:  5D chess moves are often misunderstood by those thinking in only 3 or 4 dimensions.
Title: Re: The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump
Post by: crazy canuck on February 09, 2020, 11:18:58 am
He is obviously playing the long game.  He wants to hurt the rich by completely undermining Liberal Democracy, concentrating wealth and radicalizing the non .001% to create the conditions necessary to create a true socialist state thereby balancing the budget.  It is genius.  Pure genius.

 :yes:  5D chess moves are often misunderstood by those thinking in only 3 or 4 dimensions.

 :D