Languish.org

General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Syt on August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 am

Title: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 am
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/10/justice/missouri-police-involved-shooting/index.html?hpt=us_c2

Quote
Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests

(CNN) -- Protests in Missouri around the death of an unarmed teen turned violent late Sunday.

A gas station was looted, and police called for additional units to back up officers already on the street, said Brian Schellman, spokesman with the St. Louis County Police Department.

Video from the scene showed police in riot gear. No injuries were immediately reported.

"They are sending in more officers to try and get the situation under control," Schellman said.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said that at least 20 police cars were damaged and that the use of tear gas was a high possibility.

A friend and witnesses say Missouri teen Michael Brown was unarmed and had his hands in the air when a Ferguson police officer shot and killed him, but that account is in dispute.

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Jon Belmar, chief of the St. Louis County Police Department, said at a Sunday news conference.

The officer tried to leave his vehicle just before the shooting on Saturday afternoon, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said.

A shot was fired inside the police car, and Brown was eventually shot about 35 feet away from the vehicle, Belmar said, adding few details because he didn't want to "prejudice" the case.

All shell casings collected at the scene were from the officer's weapon, Belmar said. He further said the medical examiner would issue a ruling on how many times Brown was shot, but "it was more than just a couple."

The account was in stark contrast to those of witnesses who said Brown did nothing to instigate the shooting and appeared to be surrendering when he was killed.

"My son just turned 18 and graduated high school and he didn't bother nobody," the young man's mother, Lesley McSpadden, told CNN affiliate KSDK.

Ferguson Police cars do not have dash cameras, the department said.

McSpadden was told her son was shot eight times, though witnesses had varying accounts of how many shots were fired. Brown was supposed to start classes at Vatterott College on Monday, she said.


Antonio French, the Ward 21 alderman in nearby St. Louis, tweeted numerous photos and videos from the aftermath of the Saturday shooting. Brown was shot shortly after 2 p.m., according to reports.

Hundreds of demonstrators -- as many as 1,000 at the height of the protests, according to police -- converged on the scene Saturday, at one point driving away a police squad car, French said on Twitter.

Scores of police officers lined the street. One of them held the leash of a barking dog, and French said some officers wielded shotguns. One image showed a riot van on the scene.

Demonstrators held their hands in the air and chanted, "We are Michael Brown." Others held signs, including one that said, "No justice, no peace" and another that read, "Police stops should not = dead kids." There were reports that some protesters yelled, "Kill the police."

Demonstrators at one point set a Dumpster on fire, according to CNN affiliate KMOV, and Ferguson Police Chief Jackson told KSDK, "It did get a little tense when, twice, several shots were fired."

The Ferguson Police Department called more than 100 officers from 15 jurisdictions to secure the scene, KMOV reported.

"We had what probably bordered on riot conditions," Jackson said, explaining that it took hours to process the scene, collect evidence and move Brown's body.

Later, according to media reports, about 100 people took their protest to the Police Department in Ferguson, a northern suburb that's about a 20-minute drive from St. Louis. Officers were deployed to ensure the demonstrations were peaceful, the police chief said.

McSpadden had pointed words for the officer who shot her son.

"You're not God. You don't decide when you're going to take somebody from here," she told KSDK.

Jackson said the St. Louis County Police Department was conducting an independent investigation, and during the Sunday news conference, Belmar expressed doubts that Jackson would've called his department so promptly "if he had something to hide."

The officer who shot Brown is on paid administrative leave during the investigation and will be available to talk to county homicide detectives.

The officer has been with the force six years, Belmar said, adding that he is "unaware of any other issues that he's been involved in."

He will be required to undergo two psychological evaluations before returning to duty, Belmar said.

The St. Louis County NAACP is asking the FBI to open an inquiry and said it would conduct its own investigation into the killing.

"We plan to do everything within our power to ensure that the Ferguson Police Department as well as the St. Louis County Police Department releases all details pertinent to the shooting," local chapter President Esther Haywood said in a statement.

A Justice Department spokeswoman said Attorney General Eric Holder has instructed the department's civil rights division to monitor the developments in the case.

The FBI said it is assisting police in its investigation and will review the findings.

Federal authorities typically await completion of the local investigation before deciding whether federal action is needed.

Brown was spending the summer in the neighborhood with his grandmother, Desuirea Harris, she told KMOV. She described him as "a good kid."

He was walking with at least one other man at the time of the incident, Jackson said.

Witnesses told CNN affiliate KTVI that a police officer in a squad car grabbed Brown while he was walking.

Dorian Johnson said he was walking with Brown in the middle of the street when a police car pulled up. The officer told the teens to use the sidewalk, according to Johnson.

After an exchange of words, the officer shot Brown even after he raised his hands in the air, Johnson said.

The officer "shot again, and once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air," Johnson told KMOV. "He started to get down and the officer still approached with his weapon drawn and fired several more shots."

The police chief declined to divulge specifics about the case, including what preceded the shooting.

Brown enjoyed music and had recently graduated from Normandy High School in Wellston, his uncle Bernard Ewing said.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 09:48:16 pm
And everybody in St Louis begins playing to type. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Phillip V on August 11, 2014, 09:50:28 pm
8 More Unarmed Teens Still At Large

http://www.clickhole.com/article/8-more-unarmed-teens-still-large-731

(http://chimg.onionstatic.com/2188/16x9/800.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:06:11 pm
Wise move to scoot it over to the FBI for investigation, if only for the PR and damage control.

FBI will never find an FBI-related shooting as unjustified, but they have no problem getting all scrutinizing and whatnot on the local gendarmes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:20:10 pm
Apparently this guy was a perfect human being and planned to go to college.  Why is it always those types who seem to be the ones physically attacking cops?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:21:03 pm
 :lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:32:14 pm
:lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.

Some people are just assholes I guess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 11, 2014, 11:06:53 pm
:lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.

Some people are just assholes I guess.

And isn't that why people become cops? :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 11:19:47 pm
:lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.

Some people are just assholes I guess.

And isn't that why people become cops? :unsure:

Well, that & violent criminals.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 11, 2014, 11:26:24 pm
Apparently this guy was a perfect human being and planned to go to college.  Why is it always those types who seem to be the ones physically attacking cops?

This is from around where my dad used to live.  I've still got a lot of family near by.  I have no idea what's going on over there.  The police story doesn't make a lot of sense to me yet.  One thing is certain.  I wouldn't want to be outside in North County tonight.  This might actually be a good time to be packing a firearm if you are a white guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 12:15:42 am
And isn't that why people become cops? :unsure:

I did it for the car.  Man, was I sold short.  Fucking shitty powder blue Taurus with 4 cylinders.  Don't go back to the Caprices until I leave or anything, people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 12:18:11 am
This is from around where my dad used to live.  I've still got a lot of family near by.  I have no idea what's going on over there.  The police story doesn't make a lot of sense to me yet.  One thing is certain.  I wouldn't want to be outside in North County tonight.  This might actually be a good time to be packing a firearm if you are a white guy.

I'm sure there will be ample opportunity for derdeadniggers to get the proper body count he wants.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 12, 2014, 12:52:12 am
Yeah, you could do that.  I wouldn't suggest it though.  Good way to have your house catch on fire. The shooting took place about three miles from where my dad grew up.  It's sort of a rough neighborhood.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 12, 2014, 07:31:43 am
I did it for the car.  Man, was I sold short.  Fucking shitty powder blue Taurus with 4 cylinders.  Don't go back to the Caprices until I leave or anything, people.

Heh.  Sounds like the local yokels from when I lived in Millville.  10+ year old Crown Vics except for the two black Chargers with NOS.  The cops getting to drive them must feel like they won the lottery. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 08:15:21 am
Except those two probably catch nothing but shit about it.

"So Batman, who'd you blow to get the Dodge?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 12, 2014, 03:53:46 pm
Looks like they had another night of ugliness.  People were driving in from other parts of town to get in on the looting, per the St. Louis mayor.

And the FAA apparently declared a no fly zone above Ferguson.  Meowtf?

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 12, 2014, 04:09:27 pm
The airport is really close, and planes come in very low over that area.  They probably want it clear for helicopters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 08:26:23 pm
And the FAA apparently declared a no fly zone above Ferguson.  Meowtf?

That must be for the close air support.  There must be a local MOVE chapter thereabouts.   :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 12, 2014, 08:46:13 pm
And the FAA apparently declared a no fly zone above Ferguson.  Meowtf?

That must be for the close air support.  There must be a local MOVE chapter thereabouts.   :lol:

 :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on August 13, 2014, 05:16:06 am
 :pinch:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 10:14:26 am
Another bad night.  *Another* police shooting, say the headlines.  This dude was armed, but it's still a police shooting so that's all you need to put in the headline. Also more rioting & stuff.  All wig shops in the area have been looted (I'm not kidding-- I read that yesterday).  Thankfully Rev. Al is there to fan the flames.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/uneasy-night-a-police-shooting-more-tear-gas-in-ferguson/article_7fb366f0-2f29-5bdd-b18b-34c9d8c688e7.html

Oh, and some woman got shot in the head in a drive-by, but no cops were involved so that's not really a big deal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 12:26:55 pm
LOL, dercreepyasscracker.

Maybe the cops'll shoot some Catholic blacks that are on whore pills, and score you a hate trick.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 12:32:04 pm
:lol:  THATS REAL RETARDED SIR
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 13, 2014, 12:49:29 pm
a hate trick.

:face:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:24:25 pm
I have to admit I liked this. :blush:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IfTheyGunnedMeDown
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 13, 2014, 03:30:50 pm
I have to admit I liked this. :blush:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IfTheyGunnedMeDown

An attempt to promote moderate, intelligent, non-hyperbolic conversation about how minorities are portrayed in the media and how that affects perceptions of that minority? :o

You have failed Languish. :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 pm
How about not living the stereotype?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:37:19 pm
Hey I was apologetic about liking it. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:40:33 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

That's even more un-Languishlike.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:40:37 pm
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:41:07 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

That's even more un-Languishlike.

I can't help but laugh given that you're the one saying this. :D

:blush:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:41:58 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

No, that would be you having a picture taken with your hair dyed neon blue. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on August 13, 2014, 03:42:20 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

Seriously, I thought you wouldn't be seen dead with anyone that old.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 13, 2014, 03:43:07 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:43:14 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

Seriously, I thought you wouldn't be seen dead with anyone that old.

:huh:

I think it has been established by now that I don't go for the younger set. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:44:10 pm
Shouldn't have been a stereotype?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/man-found-beaten-in-san-franciscos-duboce-triangle-to-be-taken-off-life-support-kalamazoo-michigan-hate-crime/

Quote
A man who was beaten in an alleged hate crime in San Francisco’s Duboce Triangle will be taken off life support Wednesday afternoon.

Brian Higgins, 31, was found unconscious Sunday morning in San Francisco’s Duboce Triangle neighborhood. He may have been the victim of an assault and attempted murder, police said Tuesday.

...

Higgins, with roots in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, was part of a community called the Radical Faeries. It’s described as a group of gay men looking for a spiritual dimension to their sexuality, according to CBS station NEWESCHANNEL 3.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 03:44:56 pm
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?

I dunno, derfetus seems to be doing just fine playing to type as a 19th century Amish father.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:45:03 pm
That's not what I saw on Facebook. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:47:41 pm
Shouldn't have been a stereotype?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/man-found-beaten-in-san-franciscos-duboce-triangle-to-be-taken-off-life-support-kalamazoo-michigan-hate-crime/

Quote
A man who was beaten in an alleged hate crime in San Francisco’s Duboce Triangle will be taken off life support Wednesday afternoon.

Brian Higgins, 31, was found unconscious Sunday morning in San Francisco’s Duboce Triangle neighborhood. He may have been the victim of an assault and attempted murder, police said Tuesday.

...

Higgins, with roots in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, was part of a community called the Radical Faeries. It’s described as a group of gay men looking for a spiritual dimension to their sexuality, according to CBS station NEWESCHANNEL 3.

I'm playing it light - otherwise I'd have to rage. I know the flippancy about being killed for "playing a stereotype" is full of shit, garbo.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:49:56 pm
I know the flippancy about being killed for "playing a stereotype" is full of shit, garbo.

Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 13, 2014, 03:57:19 pm
How about not living the stereotype?

Which stereotype?  The Conservative one when he hears some black kid gets shot his immediate thought is

Apparently this guy was a perfect human being and planned to go to college.  Why is it always those types who seem to be the ones physically attacking cops?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:15:00 pm
So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

You'd certainly appear to be doing so.  But why would you do that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:19:39 pm
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?

May be just a personal preference, but yeah I think it's generally a good idea to try to avoid negatively stereotypical habits.  For example, I grew up in Appalachia and have tried to avoid those related stereotypes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:22:59 pm
Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.

I don't see how it relates.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:28:20 pm
So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

You'd certainly appear to be doing so.  But why would you do that?

Because I felt like flipping the camera off and drinking a 40?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:28:41 pm
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?

May be just a personal preference, but yeah I think it's generally a good idea to try to avoid negatively stereotypical habits.  For example, I grew up in Appalachia and have tried to avoid those related stereotypes.

Ah so it is a personal worry of looking like a hick. Understandable.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:29:27 pm
Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.

I don't see how it relates.

Why did he have to go around acting like such a fairy?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:32:48 pm
Why did he have to go around acting like such a fairy?

Dunno.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 13, 2014, 11:44:39 pm
Man this Fergusen stuff is off the hook.  This is like 1960s stuff.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 11:52:25 pm
No shit.  Locked up reporters from the Washington Post and Huffington in a McDonald's for not moving fast enough when the cops told everybody to leave.
No explanation as to why the McDonald's had to be emptied.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 12:12:34 am
Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.

I don't see how it relates.

Why did he have to go around acting like such a fairy?

Yeah, that's the same type of mentality that blames a rape victim for looking like a "slut".

That being said - and perhaps this thread is not the best one to have this discussion - I think we should draw the line somewhere when it comes to being called out on a stereotype - I don't think anyone should be completely immune to that (obviously, anything that involves violence or active persecution is right out). I just think that people who embrace a certain stereotype in order to stand out are hypocrites when they are offended or call it bullying when someone (verbally) reacts negatively to it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:16:44 am
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 12:18:43 am
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.

Wow, talk about the blacks not wanting to help the situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 12:29:44 am
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.

It's shifted a lot in recent years.  Not very long ago it was mostly white.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 08:16:57 am
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.

I noticed that to.  Another weird corollary with the 60s.

But as Raz mentioned 10 years ago it was majority white.  It is just a burb of St. Louis though right?  I thought maybe it was a recipient of black flight from another area but looking at the shrinking population it looks like whitey is moving out.  Hardly any Asians or Latinos though how weird is that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 08:21:21 am
Hardly any Asians or Latinos though how weird is that?

Sounds like Cincy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Scipio on August 14, 2014, 08:25:40 am
The state of Mississippi would like to thank Ferguson, MO, for making us look good.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on August 14, 2014, 08:30:30 am
I like to tell Americans that their government is not out to get you or kill you.

Apparently, the Police feel differently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 09:03:54 am
The state of Mississippi would like to thank Ferguson, MO, for making us look good.

It would take a lot more than that to even make MS look okay. ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 09:16:26 am
I like to tell Americans that their government is not out to get you or kill you.

Apparently, the Police feel differently.

Particularly young unarmed black dudes.  Though sometimes the neighborhood watch joins in.  Really it is a national disgrace.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 09:23:58 am
Maybe Ferguson should just be absorbed into St. Louis.  Or would St. Louis want it?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 09:57:49 am
Man this is just crazy how out of control the Ferguson cops are.  Jailing reporters and shutting down cameras and gassing peaceful protestors.  No wonder the situation went ape shit.  WTF?  Were they trying to start a riot?  It is also interesting just how universal the condemnation is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 10:02:40 am
Man this is just crazy how out of control the Ferguson cops are.  Jailing reporters and shutting down cameras and gassing peaceful protestors.  No wonder the situation went ape shit.  WTF?  Were they trying to start a riot?  It is also interesting just how universal the condemnation is.

I don't know enough to say one way or the other, but I suppose one could make the argument that those extreme measures were in response to the initial unrest.  Not that it necessarily would validate them.  Also, they are obviously getting some outside help, so who knows at this point who is running the show.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Alcibiades on August 14, 2014, 10:06:31 am
Man this is just crazy how out of control the Ferguson cops are.  Jailing reporters and shutting down cameras and gassing peaceful protestors.  No wonder the situation went ape shit.  WTF?  Were they trying to start a riot?  It is also interesting just how universal the condemnation is.

According to NPR after dark the protestors become rioters essentially.  Lots of damage and looting to local shops.  Apparently the 'protesters' were throwing molotov cocktails at police last night.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:09:55 am
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there, but at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot which, I'll note, is substantially more than the police or city leaders have attempted to do until the police chief made a statement yesterday. 
Granted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 10:28:37 am
According to NPR after dark the protestors become rioters essentially.  Lots of damage and looting to local shops.  Apparently the 'protesters' were throwing molotov cocktails at police last night.

Yep when law and order breaks down looting tends to commence.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 14, 2014, 11:09:52 am
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there, but at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot which, I'll note, is substantially more than the police or city leaders have attempted to do until the police chief made a statement yesterday. 
Granted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.

They're too busy working the lines with the Gestapo DHS trying to get a few used MRAPs and SAWs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 11:22:08 am
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there,

:lol: He's been a joke since the 80s and you know it.  You're just pretending to respect him because he has that awesome PMSNBC show.  RESIST WE MUCH

Quote
but at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot 

Is he?  IIRC he was mostly whipping up the crowd, chanting "No justice, no peace."

Quote
Granted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.

Yep.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 14, 2014, 11:58:49 am
Hardly any Asians or Latinos though how weird is that?

Sounds like Cincy.

They tend to live in the places that have been growing in the past 50 years. Except Arabs, who for some reason have gravitated to Detroit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:41:35 pm
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there,

:lol: He's been a joke since the 80s and you know it.  You're just pretending to respect him because he has that awesome PMSNBC show.  RESIST WE MUCH

You'll notice the civil rights movement doesn't get involved when law enforcement does its job.  They don't show up when armed young black men get shot by the police. They don't show up when the civic leaders do their jobs.

Quote
Quote
but at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot 

Is he?  IIRC he was mostly whipping up the crowd, chanting "No justice, no peace."

Yeah, he is. A public appeal to peace and a cessation to looting that trivializes Brown's death is not "whipping up" the crowd. But you probably didn't see the assembly, since you can't see or hear too good through that Klan shroud.

Quote
Quote
Granted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.

Yep.

Don't "yup" me, this is all right up your alley.  A police department in over its head, with city and state officials completely mute, is an opportunity to shoot more of those damned dirty negros.
Go buy another gun, I'm sure there's a white sale somewhere.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 12:46:05 pm
Al Sharpton. Ugh.

I used to love the parody of him that was feature on Law & Order.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 12:48:12 pm
 :lol: Geez Seedy
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 12:51:13 pm
You'll notice the civil rights movement doesn't get involved when law enforcement does its job.  They don't show up when armed young black men get shot by the police. They don't show up when the civic leaders do their jobs.

:lol: That was true back in the day.  Today, not so much. 

Quote
Don't "yup" me, this is all right up your alley.  A police department in over its head, with city and state officials completely mute, is an opportunity to shoot more of those damned dirty negros.
Go buy another gun, I'm sure there's a white sale somewhere.

I was agreeing with you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 01:21:37 pm
:lol: Geez Seedy

"Whipping up the crowd"  :rolleyes:

ENOUGH WITH THE SLAVERY IMAGERY ALREADY
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:05:02 pm
Quote

Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

Civil rights icon Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.) called on President Barack Obama to declare martial law in Ferguson, Missouri, where police and protesters have clashed after a police officer shot and killed unarmed black teenager Michael Brown on Saturday.

"It is very sad and unbelievable. It's unreal to see what the police is doing there," Lewis said in a Thursday interview with MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell. "First of all, Ferguson, Missouri, is part of the United States of America. People have a right to protest. They have a right to dissent. They have a right to march in an orderly, peaceful, nonviolent fashion. And the press has a right to cover it."

Lewis, whose skull was fractured by police during the 1965 march over the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama, told Mitchell that the situation in Ferguson reminds him of "the '40s, the '50s, the '60s," pointing to the dearth of black officers on the St. Louis suburb's police force.

"So my own feeling, right now, is that President Obama should use the authority of his office to declare martial law. Federalize the Missouri National Guard to protect people as they protest," Lewis said. "And people should come together. Reasonable elected officials, community leaders and address what is happening there."

He continued: "If we fail to act, the fires of frustration and discontent will continue to burn, not only in Ferguson, Missouri, but all across America."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/john-lewis-ferguson_n_5679033.html#203_watch-footage-taken-after-ryan-reillys-arrest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/john-lewis-ferguson_n_5679033.html#203_watch-footage-taken-after-ryan-reillys-arrest)


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:11:12 pm
I thought this tweet by Erick Erickson was quite striking, 'Shouldn’t have to wait for a white kid from a rich neighborhood to die to recognize more police are acting like heavy handed paramilitaries'.

Also Rand Paul:
http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:23:18 pm

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAj5-bCMAA4b_t.jpg:small)

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:32:18 pm
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:33:00 pm
:lol:

An Arab journo I follow on Twitter did ask if Qatar had  already chosen a proxy in the Ferguson Spring.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 04:35:26 pm
Quote
Tips For Being An Unarmed Black Teen
INFOGRAPHIC • Civil Rights • Race • Violence • News • ISSUE 50•32 • Aug 14, 2014

With riots raging in Ferguson, Missouri following the shooting death by police of an unarmed African-American youth, the nation has turned its eyes toward police brutality, social injustice, and the continuing crisis of race relations throughout the U.S. Here are The Onion’s tips for being an unarmed black teen in America:

Shy away from dangerous, heavily policed areas.
Avoid swaggering or any other confident behavior that suggests you are not completely subjugated.
Be sure not to pick up any object that could be perceived by a police officer as a firearm, such as a cell phone, a food item, or nothing.
Explain in clear and logical terms that you do not enjoy being shot, and would prefer that it not happen.
Don’t let society stereotype you as a petty criminal. Remember that you can be seen as so much more, from an armed robbery suspect, to a rape suspect, to a murder suspect.
Try to see it from a police officer’s point of view: You may be unarmed, but you’re also black.
Avoid wearing clothing associated with the gang lifestyle, such as shirts and pants.
Revel in the fact that by simply existing, you exert a threatening presence over the nation’s police force.
Be as polite and straightforward as possible when police officers are kicking the shit out of you.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tips-for-being-an-unarmed-black-teen,36697/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 04:48:41 pm
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

 :lol:

Actually it's not the worst idea.  The governor has already sent in the Highway Patrol.  If the Patrol fails, you send in the National Guard.  Whatever the grievances the public has against the police department rioting should occur.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 04:50:47 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

It's not that irrational.  For a variety of reasons blacks commit crimes and a much greater rate than whites.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 pm
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

 :lol:

Actually it's not the worst idea.  The governor has already sent in the Highway Patrol.  If the Patrol fails, you send in the National Guard.  Whatever the grievances the public has against the police department rioting should occur.

Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:46 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country. 

Historically or currently?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:54:10 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country. 

Historically or currently?

Currently.  They are generally always in the shittiest shape in all the stats.  It goes Whitey, Latinos, Blacks.  Asians not being important or whatever.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:55:35 pm
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:
(http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/53e9f2066bb3f75f496a5f10/ferguson-missouri-has-turned-into-a-war-zone-as-riots-over-police-shooting-take-hold-of-the-town.jpg)

Except, perhaps, better disciplined?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 04:56:01 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

It's not that irrational.  For a variety of reasons blacks commit crimes and a much greater rate than whites.

Is the rate statistically significant in absolute terms to justify the prejudice?

More importantly, what are the statistics on violent crimes against unrelated third parties when you compare white and black populaces (as opposed to drug related crimes or gang related crimes, for example, where fear of a populace prone to commit such crimes would indeed be quite irrational).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:59:06 pm
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:
(http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/53e9f2066bb3f75f496a5f10/ferguson-missouri-has-turned-into-a-war-zone-as-riots-over-police-shooting-take-hold-of-the-town.jpg)

Except, perhaps, better disciplined?

Better disciplined and more restrictive.  Unless it's some benevolent version of martial law I'm unfamiliar with.

I'm not defending the tactics currently being used, mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:59:48 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country. 

Historically or currently?

Currently.  They are generally always in the shittiest shape in all the stats.  It goes Whitey, Latinos, Blacks.  Asians not being important or whatever.

I thought you meant literally beaten down.  Because that is not the case.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 05:01:21 pm
I thought you meant literally beaten down.  Because that is not the case.

Is there an ethnic group around here known for being physically beaten down?  Anyway yeah I meant figuratively.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 14, 2014, 05:02:50 pm
Is there an ethnic group around here known for being physically beaten down?  Anyway yeah I meant figuratively.

Nerds.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 05:05:55 pm
Is there an ethnic group around here known for being physically beaten down?  Anyway yeah I meant figuratively.

Well, you said fear. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 05:08:50 pm

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAj5-bCMAA4b_t.jpg:small)

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html)

At least after the news crew fled the police were nice enough to dismantle their gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 05:12:01 pm
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

 :lol:

Actually it's not the worst idea.  The governor has already sent in the Highway Patrol.  If the Patrol fails, you send in the National Guard.  Whatever the grievances the public has against the police department rioting should occur.

Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.

Martial law is what you do when you the police can't handle the situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: katmai on August 14, 2014, 05:15:18 pm

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAj5-bCMAA4b_t.jpg:small)

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html)

At least after the news crew fled the police were nice enough to dismantle their gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg)

All they were using is couple of 1x1's eh?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 05:18:21 pm
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:


Except, perhaps, better disciplined?

I've been in disaster zones when the National Guard is called out, and not to sound ungrateful for them being there, but they sort of seemed worthless. It seemed like their role was to stand around and watch while local police and fire did stuff.

Which when I reflected on it, doesn't seem to odd. They are usually part time, and trained to be military. Why would you expect a 25 year old who spends most of his time in a random civilian job and a few weeks in military training to be effective in a disaster situation in the US?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 05:20:06 pm
Indeed.  Their major role in civil unrest situations was to mostly stand around and look intimidating with all the mil-spec gear.  Local police are taking over that role themselves more these days.

The only way to one-up the po-po now is to roll out some Abrams tanks and fly in Apaches.  Maybe they could also pack some tear gas into an MLRS.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2014, 05:44:55 pm
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:


Except, perhaps, better disciplined?

I've been in disaster zones when the National Guard is called out, and not to sound ungrateful for them being there, but they sort of seemed worthless. It seemed like their role was to stand around and watch while local police and fire did stuff.

Which when I reflected on it, doesn't seem to odd. They are usually part time, and trained to be military. Why would you expect a 25 year old who spends most of his time in a random civilian job and a few weeks in military training to be effective in a disaster situation in the US?

Yeah, I was called out, and mostly our purpose was to provide warm bodies to do shit like "patrolling" or manning checkpoints. It's not like we had any actual training to do anything actually useful.

Fuck, I was a TOW missile gunner. Unless the tornado dropped some T-80s on us, I wasn't much use...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 05:51:13 pm
Next Military History channel movie..."T-80-nado"?

Russian tank division in East Germany gets pick up by a super tornado and carried into the Fulda Gap...NATO hijinks and hilarity ensue?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 06:07:32 pm


Yeah, I was called out, and mostly our purpose was to provide warm bodies to do shit like "patrolling" or manning checkpoints. It's not like we had any actual training to do anything actually useful.

Fuck, I was a TOW missile gunner. Unless the tornado dropped some T-80s on us, I wasn't much use...

Don't sell yourself short.  Having checkpoints and enforcing a curfew can stop a riot.  The simple presence of an Army can be very persuasive.  It persuaded the rioters in LA and George Wallace in Alabama.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 06:30:26 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

indians have it worse. jurisdiction has caused a lot of problems.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 06:32:42 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

indians have it worse. jurisdiction has caused a lot of problems.

Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:00:57 pm
Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 07:06:23 pm


nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.

They had a choice. Their ancestors chose to walk across that land bridge out of Eurasia and into the Americas. They need to accept the consequences.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:08:56 pm
Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.

Maybe that's a Dakota thing. I don't think most people typically have thoughts about Native Americans.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:21:51 pm
Maybe that's a Dakota thing. I don't think most people typically have thoughts about Native Americans.

yeah, i meant up here when i said "most people don't like indians."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:26:19 pm
I dunno, plenty of Languishites would blame the Indians for their own lot in life, since they fail to assimilate themselves and refuse to give up their "culture".  Just another variation of the "don't like it, quit!" Languish theme among the social contract ass-wipers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:43:21 pm
the problem seems to be the reservations' systems of government are fundamentally flawed. i visited one over the summer and discovered how corrupt they can be. the tribal council rules supreme, and the tribal judicial system is not independent. the tribal council can remove a judge arbitrarily.

judge holds a guy in contempt of court -> guy goes to his brother on the tribal council -> tribal council asks the judge to back down -> judge refuses to back down: the judge is removed. the tribal prosecutor said in the eleven years he had worked for the system, he had seen thirteen different judges. and a lot of judges like to start fresh, clean slate for everyone - even the repeat, serious offenders. so, it takes half a year to a year before the judge learns he needs to crack down on the repeat, serious offenders, but then the judge runs off or is sacked. so, the process repeats itself.

added to the mess are tribal judges and attorneys who are allowed to work in the system without having gone to law school, let alone pass the bar. "law-trained" judges can be rare, and judges who have passed the bar can be even rarer. then you have families who dominate most positions of power within the tribe. maybe that family is honest, hardworking, and doing the greater good. or they could be corrupt as sin.

there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:46:29 pm
there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

Since the federal funding is squat to begin with, there's nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:49:43 pm
I dunno, plenty of Languishites would blame the Indians for their own lot in life, since they fail to assimilate themselves and refuse to give up their "culture".  Just another variation of the "don't like it, quit!" Languish theme among the social contract ass-wipers.

Well, to be honest, as a person who has never had one permanent place of residence, I don't really understand when I've heard Native Americans say things like "I love the reservation" while meanwhile recognizing all of the totally terrible things about it. I have to admit that I'd quit. -_-
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:50:26 pm
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:51:55 pm
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so. :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:54:22 pm
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so. :hug:

Oh sure, take another shot at me living with my parents.  THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:55:24 pm
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so. :hug:

Oh sure, take another shot at me living with my parents.  THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER

I believe that's:

(http://countrysideanimalclinic.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/oliver-11.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:57:06 pm
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 07:58:29 pm
there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

Since the federal funding is squat to begin with, there's nothing to worry about.

To be fair, he's right that the reservation thing is a raw deal.  I'm not sure how to fix it.  You could go all Hong Kong just get rid of most government regulations.  That would... change things.  I don't know if it would be better though.  It is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:59:43 pm
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:03:07 pm
Even military types are saying, "That's pretty fucked up, man."

Quote
Military veterans see deeply flawed police response in Ferguson
By Thomas Gibbons-Neff August 14 at 12:52 PM

Jet-black rifles leveled at unarmed citizens and mine-resistant vehicles once used to patrol the roadways of Iraq and Afghanistan rumbling through small town America. These are scenes playing out in Ferguson, Mo., which has been racked by protests for the last week following the fatal shooting of an unarmed 19-year-old named Michael Brown.

For veterans of the wars that the Ferguson protests so closely resemble, the police response has appeared to be not only heavy-handed but out of step with the most effective ways for both law enforcement and military personnel to respond to demonstrations.

“You see the police are standing online with bulletproof vests and rifles pointed at peoples chests,” said Jason Fritz, a former Army officer and an international policing operations analyst. “That’s not controlling the crowd, that’s intimidating them.”

The protests in Ferguson began in earnest just a day after Brown was killed, when a prayer vigil for the slain teen turned into an evening of looting.

Scriven King, a 10-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force’s law enforcement component and a SWAT officer, attributed the initial spasm of violence to a lack of leadership and mismanagement of public  perception on the Ferguson Police Department’s behalf.

“The first thing that went wrong was when the police showed up with K-9 units,” Scriven said. “The dogs played on racist imagery…it played the situation up and [the department] wasn’t cognizant of the imagery.”

King added that, instead of deescalating the situation on the second day, the police responded with armored vehicles and SWAT officers clad in bulletproof vests and military-grade rifles.

“We went through some pretty bad areas of Afghanistan, but we didn’t wear that much gear,” said Kyle Dykstra, an Army veteran and former security officer for the State Department. Dykstra specifically pointed out the bulletproof armor the officers were wearing around their shoulders, known as “Deltoid” armor.

“I can’t think of a [protest] situation where the use of M4 [rifles] are merited,” Fritz said. “I don’t see it as a viable tactic in any scenario.”


Ferguson police have defended their handling of the protests and said some demonstrators have been trying to “co-opt” peaceful protests. But while the Ferguson and St. Louis county police departments may have made their presence felt in the streets, they have made only limited use of social media.

“They’ve kept people in an information black hole,” King said, mentioning that their decision not to share details about operations more widely has only exacerbated the situation.

“There has not been a dialogue about the tactical situation the officers faced,” he said, referring to the fact that there might have been a reason that caused the officers to respond with such heavy equipment. “There could have been threats to the officers, but that information has not been shared to the public.”

As the violence continued to escalate over the course of the week, King said, Ferguson police also exacerbated tensions by allowing individual officers to engage with protesters.

“Officers were calling the protesters ‘animals,’ ” King said. “I can’t imagine a military unit would do that in any scenario.”

King added that if it were a military unit in a similar situation there would be a public affairs officer or civil affairs engagement team that would help bridge the gap between the riot control elements and the general population.

“I would hate to call the Ferguson response a military one,” he said. “Because it isn’t, it’s an aberration.”

To be fair to the Ferguson PD:  these Barney Fife amateurs can't handle two kids walking in the street without shooting one of them, they certainly can't be expected to deal with protesters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:05:18 pm
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:

:mellow:
I wouldn't expect that sort of response to Oliver!, either.

:mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 08:08:55 pm
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:

:mellow:
I wouldn't expect that sort of response to Oliver!, either.

:mellow:

:lol: :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 09:24:33 pm
Even military types are saying, "That's pretty fucked up, man."

To be fair to the Ferguson PD:  these Barney Fife amateurs can't handle two kids walking in the street without shooting one of them, they certainly can't be expected to deal with protesters.

To be even more fair to the FPD, from the pics I've seen, most of the po-po military wannabees seem to be coming from St Louis County Police. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 09:28:18 pm
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

My tribe is on a 3-13 run, plummeting out of the playoff race, and football season is around the corner. My tribe can fuck itself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 09:43:08 pm
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:45:55 pm
To be even more fair to the FPD, from the pics I've seen, most of the po-po military wannabees seem to be coming from St Louis County Police.

Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

Quote
For at least a decade, there have been complaints about racial tensions between police and black communities in the St. Louis County area. Communities, some residents say, can have less-experienced, poorly-equipped police departments and highly uneven levels of protection.

This year, St. Louis County invited researchers from the University of California at Los Angeles to help study complaints that county police had engaged in racial profiling and to help them improve protocols for matters ranging from traffic stops to neighborhood monitoring.

This came after a former lieutenant with the county police who had been accused of ordering officers to target black people at stores was fired. An investigation determined that he had made “inappropriate racial references.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/even-before-teen-michael-browns-slaying-in-mo-racial-questions-have-hung-over-police/2014/08/13/78b3c5c6-2307-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 09:54:16 pm
I'll agree that the police response seems heavy-handed, but let's not ignore the complicity of the rioters and looters here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:08:18 pm
I'll agree that the police response seems heavy-handed, but let's not ignore the complicity of the rioters and looters here.

12 businesses the first night is not exactly the corner of Florence and Normandy.  But I can see how you'd consider protesters as rioters since the initial incidents Sunday night.

Here, this'll warm your cracker cockles:

Quote
ST. LOUIS COUNTY – Nine people face charges for looting in Ferguson that followed the fatal shooting of Michael Brown Sunday night into Monday morning, according to St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch.

The nine face varying felony charges relating to burglary and theft along West Florissant.

Charges have been issued against the following so far:

Stephon Thompson, 19, of St. Louis, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Robert Stephenson, 28, of St. Louis, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant.
Beonca McRath, 19, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge and stealing under $500 for breaking into a Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant. According to court records, McRath stole hair weave from a business.  :lol:
Steven Martin, 27, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Andrew Henry, 30, of St. Louis, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Demarco Harris, 38, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge and charge of stealing under $500 from Nu Fashion Beauty Supply in the 7500 block of West Florissant.
Nikko Fiertag, 23, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge and charge for stealing under $500 worth of shoes from a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Michael Davis, 27, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant.
Trey Brewer, 18, of Dallas, Texas faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 10:58:30 pm
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

indians have it worse. jurisdiction has caused a lot of problems.

Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

Nah.  WE hardly have black people up here, so you want the group that is unfairly maligned and feared, it's natives.

Probably for the same reasons as blacks though - natives are disproportionately represented in crime statistics.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 11:05:48 pm
So it might be most apt to say that poor people are disproportionally represented in crime statistics.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 15, 2014, 02:11:35 am
Quote


Palestinians Are Sharing Advice With Protesters In Ferguson, Missouri

David M Brooks


As the protests in Ferguson have escalated over the past week, the international community has increasingly turned their attention to the demonstrations stemming from the fatal shooting of an unarmed 18-year-old black man.

Surprisingly, the images and videos of the police crackdown on protesters has resulted in shows of sympathy and support coming all the way from Palestinians in Gaza.

    From occupied Palestine we stand with the oppressed in #Ferguson...#FreePalestine #FergusonRiot pic.twitter.com/AyqCTns3pS   
    — فلسطين i (@iFalasteen) August 14, 2014

    Made in USA teargas canister was shot at us a few days ago in #Palestine by Israel, now they are used in #Ferguson. pic.twitter.com/y3co6DMFM6   
    — مريم البرغوثي (@MariamBarghouti) August 14, 2014

Palestinians have often dealt with tear gas and rubber bullets used against their own protests, and some have been passing on advice on how to deal with them:

    People in Gaza are tweeting information on how to handle tear gas to the citizens of Ferguson.
    — Rabih Alameddine (@rabihalameddine) August 14, 2014

    Don't Keep much distance from the Police, if you're close to them they can't tear Gas. To #Ferguson from #Palestine   
    — Rajai abuKhalilرجائي (@Rajaiabukhalil) August 14, 2014

    Always make sure to run against the wind /to keep calm when you're teargassed, the pain will pass, don't rub your eyes! #Ferguson Solidarity
    — مريم البرغوثي (@MariamBarghouti) August 14, 2014

And as the protests in Ferguson have continued, people in the community have expressed appreciation and mutual support for the people in Gaza.

    The fact Gaza tweeting to the people in Ferguson how to stop tear gas and Ferguson crowd chanting "Free Gaza" is amazing
    — Faithful Black Man (@CountOnRodney) August 14, 2014

Posts showing solidarity have continued to erupt over social media as others become aware of the situation in the U.S. and as groups find commonality in their own struggles.

    Hamde Abu tells #Ferguson that #Palestine knows what it means to be shot for your ethnicity pic.twitter.com/56aKRQHZnI   
    — Rana Nazzal (@zaytouni_rana) August 14, 2014

In Ferguson, the protests on Thursday entered their sixth day as Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon (D) replaced local police forces with patrolman from the State Highway patrol.


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 15, 2014, 02:41:24 am
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:

:mellow:
I wouldn't expect that sort of response to Oliver!, either.

:mellow:

  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 15, 2014, 02:45:17 am
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

It's not that irrational.  For a variety of reasons blacks commit crimes and a much greater rate than whites.

Is the rate statistically significant in absolute terms to justify the prejudice?

More importantly, what are the statistics on violent crimes against unrelated third parties when you compare white and black populaces (as opposed to drug related crimes or gang related crimes, for example, where fear of a populace prone to commit such crimes would indeed be quite irrational).

Bump. The floor is yours, counsellor. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 15, 2014, 09:37:45 am
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 09:40:53 am
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

We know that but we still use the term.  Good day, sir. :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:45:32 am
I'll agree that the police response seems heavy-handed, but let's not ignore the complicity of the rioters and looters here.

Dude the cops lost control by gassing peaceful protestors and shit went down.  The cops job is to preserve law and order not destroy it themselves.  I guess I don't get the argument that saying the cops are responsible for the breakdown is ignoring the breakdown.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 09:46:27 am
I'm diggin' the Black panther police hat dude :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk7sAvqqEJU
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:56:46 am
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 10:11:28 am
I don't have a problem with law abiding people open carrying, regardless of race. 

I do frown on people flaunting it, but that's a different discussion.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 15, 2014, 10:19:23 am
I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

We Americans prefer our irreverent references to cops be rhyming.  Hence "local yokel" and "county mountie." :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 15, 2014, 11:41:44 am
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.

Possibly because there is a democratic governor and democratic president (not that the president matters)?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 11:42:08 am
For some reason I always lost people using gendarme, even though Judge Gerstung would do shit like set court dates for Bastille Day.

"Your trial date is set for this Bastille Day.  You do know when Bastille Day is, don't you?"
*cut to defense attorney furiously flipping through DayRunner*
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 15, 2014, 12:23:12 pm
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

Probably because we watched Smokie & the Bandit II as kids.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 01:24:14 pm
Hmm...
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 01:46:30 pm
Yes, an unarmed shoplifter certainly requires as much deadly force as an unarmed teen.

Too bad he wasn't pulled up in the street for shoplifting.

Though now I've seen photos of the kid in contrast to your standard tiny Pakistani old guy, I can see the officer's reasoning in the application of deadly force during a Code BFN scenario.


PD could've saved themselves a lot of bullshit this week in releasing this info.  There is no reason to conceal it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 01:48:23 pm
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 01:53:21 pm
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

It's a matter of perception.

"Giant caught almost red-handed after strong-arm robbery gets shot by cops in confrontation" has a different tone to it than "kid minding his own business walking down the street gets murdered for no apparent reason by (racist?) cop".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 15, 2014, 01:54:11 pm
What difference does it make whether he just robbed a store or not?

It isn't like it would be ok to shoot him based on that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 02:00:55 pm
What difference does it make whether he just robbed a store or not?

It isn't like it would be ok to shoot him based on that.

Obviously not.

It simply changes the public perception of the incident.

We must still wait for the actual facts to be sifted. But the intital scenario sounded like a case of the cops harrasing and profiling a wholly innocent man - in short, that the cops initiated the confrontation (maybe because they were racist). Now, it seems more like they were doing their jobs. We still need to know exactly what went down, but the cop's story - which I understand is that the guy they shot went for his gun - is sounding a trifle more likely, if the guy is a criminal caught nearly red-handed, than if he is just some random guy.

None of which will change the facts if it turns out the guy was shot in the back from a distance - it is hard to see how that could be justified under *any* possible scenario.

Also, the real story here is probably police over-reaction to rioting and protests. That doesn't change, if the intital cop was guilty or innocent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 02:09:17 pm
What I originally heard was that he had shoplifted and ran from the cops and they shot him.  The cops inexplicably had no dashcam which is just crazy.  The can afford a freaking APC and automatic rifles but no dashcams?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:10:10 pm
Hmm...
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true

The issue is that the video of the robbery shows a man with sandals on his feet. The picture of Michael Brown's body shows him wearing high-top sneakers.

Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 02:11:16 pm
Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.

Oh for...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 02:19:46 pm
Hmm...
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true

The issue is that the video of the robbery shows a man with sandals on his feet. The picture of Michael Brown's body shows him wearing high-top sneakers.

Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.
According to what I've read, the other fellow admitted the two of them did the shoplifting/robbery - or at least, that's what his lawyer said.

Quote
Johnson acknowledged to the FBI and other investigators that he and Brown went to the store and “that he did take cigarillos,” his attorney, Freeman Bosley, told MSNBC.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ferguson/article20073213/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:21:36 pm
Wonder how the shoe thing happened, then. I've seen the pics, and it does appear that they have two different kinds of shoes on.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 02:51:55 pm
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.

Looking at that Breitbart site, I get the impression the those people are animals and police needs to come down harder on them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 02:54:39 pm
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.

Looking at that Breitbart site, I get the impression the those people are animals and police needs to come down harder on them.

Well I guess there are always nuttier right wingers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 03:01:03 pm
The issue is that the video of the robbery shows a man with sandals on his feet. The picture of Michael Brown's body shows him wearing high-top sneakers.

Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.

What it really means is there's a bully shoplifter on the loose, and no stone will be left unturned, no rubber bulet left unfired and no unarmed black teen left unshot until this criminal is caught.

Bet his ass grabbed some Skittles, too.  There's your motive and shoot/don't shoot green light right there.  Taste the rainbow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 03:03:54 pm
First that guy in NY with the untaxed cigarettes; now this guy and the cigarillos.

Is there any doubt that smoking kills?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 15, 2014, 03:09:30 pm
Looking at that Breitbart site, I get the impression the those people are animals and police needs to come down harder on them.

Breitbart's dead, you should stop looking for guidance from his website.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Scipio on August 15, 2014, 04:43:03 pm
If the appropriate response to shoplifting a box of cigarillos or obstructing traffic is shooting the perpetrator, my police department is doing things all wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on August 15, 2014, 04:48:14 pm
If the appropriate response to shoplifting a box of cigarillos or obstructing traffic is shooting the perpetrator, my police department is doing things all wrong.

Apparently the shooting was unconnected to the shop-lifting. The shooting officer was unaware of the shoplifting incident, and the police department has apologized for implying that the two were connected.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 15, 2014, 05:02:17 pm
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

Stop being a goof.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 05:22:45 pm
If the appropriate response to shoplifting a box of cigarillos or obstructing traffic is shooting the perpetrator, my police department is doing things all wrong.

Apparently the shooting was unconnected to the shop-lifting. The shooting officer was unaware of the shoplifting incident, and the police department has apologized for implying that the two were connected.

I wonder if the kid knew that.  It does complicate things though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 pm
Obviously not.

It simply changes the public perception of the incident.
Okay. But my view after, like the rest of us, watching a few of these is that the biggest influence of perception is the immediate and total racial element to the story. Which goes both in terms of how the story's told and how it's received.

The view I get, from this forum and reading stories about American cops, is about the whole militarisation of the police that leads to a town like Ferguson  having a police force better armed than the RUC in Belfast during the troubles. That and that I should never stop grovelling and doffing my cap to American police 'officers'.

Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 15, 2014, 05:54:17 pm
That and that I should never stop grovelling and doffing my cap to American police 'officers'.

I find it better to just not look them in the eye. No reason to call attention to yourself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 pm
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

This is not the policing I knew 20 years ago.  This is not the kind of policing we did.

Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on August 15, 2014, 05:59:10 pm
Interesting writeup from a reporter who went to Ferguson: http://grantland.com/features/ferguson-missouri-protest-michael-brown-murder-police/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 pm
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

 But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
^^^^^^^^
This right here, IMO, is the biggest problem with PD's nowadays. Badge heavy, PTSD ex-military cops that have no business wearing a badge. Let alone carrying a gun.

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 15, 2014, 06:21:18 pm

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

His mustache?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:23:43 pm

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

His mustache?

Dont be "that" guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 06:30:26 pm
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on August 15, 2014, 06:32:59 pm
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

 But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
^^^^^^^^
This right here, IMO, is the biggest problem with PD's nowadays. Badge heavy, PTSD ex-military cops that have no business wearing a badge. Let alone carrying a gun.

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

Thanks, two interesting views from the coalfaces, so to speak.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 07:00:40 pm
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

 But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
^^^^^^^^
This right here, IMO, is the biggest problem with PD's nowadays. Badge heavy, PTSD ex-military cops that have no business wearing a badge. Let alone carrying a gun.

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

Eh, you are always going to get a share of the bullies and jackasses.  You can't turn them all away because they make up such a significant number of applicants.  The sad truth is that a lot of people become cops so they can throw their weight around.  The people who would make good cops often don't apply.  The best you can do is have a strict organization and keep them on a short leash.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 15, 2014, 07:03:53 pm
My dad once asked me why I didn't become a cop like him. I told him there would be too many bodies in the Morgues.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 07:12:51 pm
My dad once asked me why I didn't become a cop like him. I told him there would be too many bodies in the Morgues.

Also you wouldn't be able to afford a home in France.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:14:07 pm
I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

That, IMHO, is the biggest problem BPD has, and why the "Stop Snitching" culture is so ingrained here;  nobody talks to the cops, because the cops aren't talking to them.
 
What is police work?  When somebody is bitching about their garbage pick-up and getting the run-around from the city, you don't say "hey, that's not my job."  You come back a few days later with a name and a phone number for them to call.  Because that is what gets you picked out from all the other cops on a scene by somebody who has something to say--"I ain't talking to Jones, he a thug, I'll talk to Ryan"--and you will catch up with them later.  And they'll give you a name.  That is police work.   

That's what I never understood why they had the attitudes.  Don't worry about the knuckleheads and the action, there will always be plenty of that to go around, you don't need to look for it.

Giving two teens shit for walking in the street?  You fucking kidding me?  You don't have anything better to do?  Dropping a choke hold on a guy for something like untaxed cigarettes that only warranted a citation?  End your career and possibly go to jail because you couldn't be bothered to talk to him for 10 more minutes?  Choking out a guy from behind when he's already cuffed and not fighting? 

Couldn't work with those guys, and they wouldn't be able to work with me.  Especially that one motherfucker that laid his hands on another cop's prisoner a while back.  That happened to me once, and we damned near came to blows right then and there.  My cuffs, my prisoner.  You don't fucking touch him.  Goddamn, that video made me mad.

Need to go back to community policing, and do it old school.  First thing I'd do is kick everybody out of their cars and get them walking the beat.  You can't police a community from behind rolled up windows and a mobile data terminal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 15, 2014, 07:18:48 pm
  The people who would make good cops often don't apply.

Or are not allowed to even interview for a position.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 15, 2014, 07:19:04 pm

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

His mustache?

Dont be "that" guy.

(http://yuq.me/tv/02/832/4979.jpg)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:24:35 pm
Quote
Deputy Travis Junior: To me it doesn't make sense if you gotta pray facin' a certain way... if God's everywhere shouldn't you be able to face any which way when you pray? Like is his receiver somewhere in the Middle East and he's listening to the receiver or somethin'?

Deputy James Garcia: Yeah, it's like, I have a plan with God but it's like a bad cell plan, doesn't work in certain areas.

Deputy Travis Junior: Five calls a day.

Deputy James Garcia: See I got anytime minutes with my God.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 15, 2014, 07:35:48 pm
I think part of the militarization has to do with the risk aversion we've developed. When the powers that be are arresting a mother for leaving a 9 year old unsupervised in the park, or giving out million dollar judgments for spilling coffee on yourself, or mandating bicycle helmets, what do you think they will do when it comes to something genuinely dangerous like policing in troubled neighborhoods? Maybe it used to be acceptable, even in more violent times, to just knock on the door and talk to a likely criminal, but now you need the security of an armored vehicle.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 15, 2014, 07:48:25 pm
Plus the expecation that you'll get killed if the cop freaks out and later says, "we didn't know that the 90 yr old man's cane WASN'T a pump action shot gun."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 07:50:56 pm
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

I wasn't aware of that. All I knew was that Michael Brown was getting ready to go to college. Oh, and also that he was getting ready to go to college. And that he was executed in cold blood.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 08:39:16 pm
At least when garbon rolls his eyes, he uses the :rolleyes: smiley.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:07 pm
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 12:12:00 am
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

I wasn't aware of that. All I knew was that Michael Brown was getting ready to go to college. Oh, and also that he was getting ready to go to college. And that he was executed in cold blood.

Also he was black and probably "living the stereotype".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:16:18 am
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.

For me it was Paris. There were cops with machine guns at the entrance to the Louvre.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jaron on August 16, 2014, 01:51:07 am
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

I wasn't aware of that. All I knew was that Michael Brown was getting ready to go to college. Oh, and also that he was getting ready to go to college. And that he was executed in cold blood.

:blink:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 16, 2014, 01:55:11 am
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/turning-policemen-into-soldiers-the-culmination-of-a-long-trend/376052/

Quote
Turning Policemen Into Soldiers, the Culmination of a Long Trend

Another poisoned fruit of the post-9/11 sensibility

The images from Missouri of stormtrooper-looking police confronting their citizens naturally raises the question: how the hell did we get to this point? When did the normal cops become Navy SEALs? What country is this, anyway?

There will be more and more mainstream coverage of the modern militarization of the police, a phenomenon mainly of the post-9/11 years. For reference/aggregation purposes, here is a guide to further reading:

1) The Book on this topic: Rise of the Warrior Cop, by Radley Balko. It came out a year ago and is more timely now than ever.

2) "Lockdown Nation," a Peter Moskos review of Balko's book last year in PS magazine.

3) "How the War on Terror Has Militarized the Police," an Atlantic dispatch by Arthur Rizer and Joseph Hartman three years ago.

4) "Tanks in Small Towns," a web item I did in 2011 on signs of this trend, including this photo of a police force in South Carolina:

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/08/SOuthCarolinaTank/c36b33da2.jpg)

And this one from a small town in Virginia:

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/08/VirginiaPOlice/eacd359a2.jpg)

And this from Florida:

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/08/TampaCops_1/5b180d7af.jpg)

5) Some other Atlantic coverage here, here, here.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/turning-patrolmen-into-soldiers-how-did-we-let-this-happen/248828/
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/uc-davis-update-featuring-catopticon-and-tanks-in-small-towns/248793/
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/the-moral-power-of-an-image-uc-davis-reactions/248778/

6) Update: An important and well-illustrated report by Matt Apuzzo in the NYT two months ago, called "War Gear Flows to Police Departments."

7) Update^2: A new report from Alec MacGillis in TNR on how "anti-terrorist" funding from DHS has equipped police forces with this CENTCOM-style war gear.

This Ferguson, Missouri episode is obviously about race, and is (another) occasion for pointing readers to Ta-Nehisi Coates's powerful "Reparations" article. It is also about how we govern ourselves, and about how far the ramifying self-damage of the post-9/11 era has gone.

"Self-damage"? All the literature about terrorism emphasizes that the harm directly done in an attack is nothing compared with the self-destructive reactions it can induce. From Fallujah to Ferguson, that is part of what we're seeing now.

I won't belabor that theme for the moment but will say: Perhaps these incredible police-state-like images will have some attention-focusing or "enough!" effect, like their counterparts from another era (below). Meanwhile, check out Balko's book.

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/08/FireHose_thumb_580x425_69800/5d37b8ad7.png)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jaron on August 16, 2014, 01:57:33 am
I'm glad we stopped the militarization of the fire departments.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 02:05:37 am
That seems to be a separate issue.  The kid wasn't shot with a tank, just a cop with a gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: celedhring on August 16, 2014, 03:28:56 am
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.

For me it was Paris. There were cops with machine guns at the entrance to the Louvre.

Spanish police uses them in roadblocks when they are looking for armed/dangerous subjects (like ETA terrorists). Been stopped by machine-gun wielding cops many a time in the 80s-90s.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 04:00:29 am
Yeah, I noticed that in Europe.  Thought it strange that the police carry machine pistols.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on August 16, 2014, 04:10:51 am
I don't think Swedish cops have machine guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 16, 2014, 07:16:22 am
Quote
Deputy Travis Junior: To me it doesn't make sense if you gotta pray facin' a certain way... if God's everywhere shouldn't you be able to face any which way when you pray? Like is his receiver somewhere in the Middle East and he's listening to the receiver or somethin'?

Deputy James Garcia: Yeah, it's like, I have a plan with God but it's like a bad cell plan, doesn't work in certain areas.

Deputy Travis Junior: Five calls a day.

Deputy James Garcia: See I got anytime minutes with my God.

That is my favorite episode, white devil. :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 16, 2014, 08:07:47 am
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.
When and where was that? Because I remember being really freaked out by that after the 7/7 bombings around many central London tube stops. It was weird.

Quote
Yeah, I noticed that in Europe.  Thought it strange that the police carry machine pistols.
In the UK they're generally a special armed response unit that are, from my understanding, pretty well trained. The only permanently armed force are the police for nuclear facilities.

Though my mum works in the nuclear industry and I went on a couple of site visits as a kid and I don't remember ever seeing them. So I don't know what they do or where they are :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on August 16, 2014, 09:28:29 am
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.
When and where was that? Because I remember being really freaked out by that after the 7/7 bombings around many central London tube stops. It was weird.
Right in front of Number 10. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 16, 2014, 09:43:40 am
In the UK they're generally a special armed response unit that are, from my understanding, pretty well trained. The only permanently armed force are the police for nuclear facilities.

Though my mum works in the nuclear industry and I went on a couple of site visits as a kid and I don't remember ever seeing them. So I don't know what they do or where they are :lol:

Indeed, that's the difference.  Not the "AR in every car" shit some departments on this side of the pond are moving towards.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 10:59:45 am
Indeed, that's the difference.  Not the "AR in every car" shit some departments on this side of the pond are moving towards.

Funny how the "AR in every car" mentality has filtered down to the Teabagger-2nd-Amendent types with absolutely no ramifications whatsoever.

You can carry an AR into a department store, you can bring your AR to a (black) presidential candidate's rally, you can even bring your AR with you so you and your friends can threaten Federal agents enforcing the law and openly challenge the government with armed resistance. 

Armed white people = Good
Unarmed black people = Dead
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 16, 2014, 11:39:42 am
No shit.  I have the "pleasure" of living next to the epicenter of this bullshit, too. <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 16, 2014, 11:45:27 am
Indeed, that's the difference.  Not the "AR in every car" shit some departments on this side of the pond are moving towards.

Funny how the "AR in every car" mentality has filtered down to the Teabagger-2nd-Amendent types with absolutely no ramifications whatsoever.

You can carry an AR into a department store, you can bring your AR to a (black) presidential candidate's rally, you can even bring your AR with you so you and your friends can threaten Federal agents enforcing the law and openly challenge the government with armed resistance. 

Armed white people = Good
Unarmed black people = Dead
Armed white people = patriots
armed black people = dangerous

That's how they justify themselves.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 05:26:53 pm
I want that M-113 command APC.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 05:48:59 pm
What a fucking mess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 06:10:23 pm
I want that M-113 command APC.

I don't think the lil' missus would appreciate all the donuts in the front yard.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 16, 2014, 06:11:58 pm
I want that M-113 command APC.

That would be an M577 ......monkey boy
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 06:13:30 pm
LOLZ GREEN DRAGOWNED
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 06:34:40 pm
I want that M-113 command APC.

That would be an M577 ......monkey boy

(http://i.imgur.com/0mdxE1o.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on August 16, 2014, 06:48:22 pm
What a fucking mess.

This thread, the situation in Missouri, the militarization of the police, all three or something else ?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 16, 2014, 06:57:05 pm
I want that M-113 command APC.

That would be an M577 ......monkey boy

(http://i.imgur.com/0mdxE1o.jpg)

With your display of accurate knowledge of armored vehicles, you probably gave it to Raz's mom.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 06:59:31 pm
I'll just call it a Tiger tank next time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on August 16, 2014, 07:20:22 pm
Giving two teens shit for walking in the street?  You fucking kidding me? 
You come across a couple of guys walking in the middle of the street and obstructing traffic and you just drive by? Why aren't you a cop anymore again?

Also, some people have been calling the incident at the convienance store "shoplifting." In Washington at least, shoplifting (theft in the third degree) is a misdemeanor. What this guy did, on the other hand, would be robbery in the 2nd degree - a class B felony (class A is for things like first degree murder, rape-rape, armed robbery and the like). Depending on the guy's record, he could be looking at serious prison time. I would assume the situation is similar in Missouri. So while this doesn't prove that the cop is telling the truth, it at least makes his story that the guy was violent and going for the cop's gun more plausible.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 08:27:00 pm
Giving two teens shit for walking in the street?  You fucking kidding me? 
You come across a couple of guys walking in the middle of the street and obstructing traffic and you just drive by? Why aren't you a cop anymore again?

Because I couldn't work with asshole cops that let something as trivial as two kids walking in the street get them all torqued up into niggerknocker mode.  Assholes like that get you in trouble, like getting you roped up with them in a shooting.  OH WAIT

It's a fucking city, people walk in the street.  Burp the siren, they move out of the way.  They always do.  But obviously Ferguson PD doesn't have enough calls for service, they can waste their time with that sort of nonsense, jawing with noodleheads.   
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 09:04:27 pm
Well it's not much of a city, only about 50k.  Actually asking the kids to get out of the street would have been the right decision, as it would lead the officer to a robbery suspect.  Can't say about the next decisions, obviously something went wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 am
Also, some people have been calling the incident at the convienance store "shoplifting." In Washington at least, shoplifting (theft in the third degree) is a misdemeanor. What this guy did, on the other hand, would be robbery in the 2nd degree - a class B felony (class A is for things like first degree murder, rape-rape, armed robbery and the like). Depending on the guy's record, he could be looking at serious prison time. I would assume the situation is similar in Missouri. So while this doesn't prove that the cop is telling the truth, it at least makes his story that the guy was violent and going for the cop's gun more plausible.

Ok.  Again I thought the original story was 'cops try to arrest unarmed dude for stealing something and shot him dead'.  Of course now we know the cop had no idea the guy was involved with the incident.

However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on.  But stealing that shit from the store is about priority number 2 million by now.  It is only money, this is a full blown national disgrace and disaster unfolding that threatens the legitimacy of the cops everywhere.  Not to mention the fact the whole world is now watching this shit on livestream every night with little kids and the press being gassed.

  This is about the cops escalating the situation by attacking the protestors and triggering a break down in law and order through their mismanagement and tinear understanding of how to handle a situation where a cop kills a member of a community.  And it just keeps going, it is a miracle nobody else has been killed yet or we do not have riots breaking out in other cities.

Where the fuck is the President in this?  It has been over a week.  It took hardly any time at all for Rand Freaking Paul to chime in and he is just some Senator from a state in the neighborhood.  Obama is such a failure I just do not get it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 18, 2014, 07:40:05 am
I might get some hot NG firing on the crowd action now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on August 18, 2014, 08:57:35 am
However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on. 
I thought that I heard he was on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. Is that not correct?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 09:03:29 am
I know he and his family are out of town, and the shooting investigation is with the FBI.
But whether or not admin leave is involved, who the hell knows with that department, it's mystifying the lack of information coming out.
But maybe it's better that way, because every time that doofus chief opens his mouth, police fail falls out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:12:04 am
However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on. 
I thought that I heard he was on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. Is that not correct?

If so, the administrative leave part, it is just coming out now a week later.  Though that seems a little underwhelming considering the very serious nature of what occurred.  You put people getting their buddies out of traffic violations or stealing from the seized weed stash on administrative leave.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 18, 2014, 10:02:04 am
However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on. 
I thought that I heard he was on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. Is that not correct?

If so, the administrative leave part, it is just coming out now a week later.  Though that seems a little underwhelming considering the very serious nature of what occurred.  You put people getting their buddies out of traffic violations or stealing from the seized weed stash on administrative leave.

Putting an officer on administative leave is a normal part of the SOP while a shooting investigation is ongoing. It is not a punishment, or any kind of statement about the suspected outcome of said investigation.

I do think it is a little farcical that these investigations are done by the same department or municipality that is involved - how often is a police shooting ever judged as anything but justified?

I would like to see some kind of independent review of police use of deadly force.

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 18, 2014, 10:09:42 am

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.

You could always vary that up with dropping a gun near the body, and saying "he was going for *his* gun". Or at least, so noir fiction has taught us.  ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 18, 2014, 10:12:42 am
Putting an officer on administative leave is a normal part of the SOP while a shooting investigation is ongoing. It is not a punishment, or any kind of statement about the suspected outcome of said investigation.

I do think it is a little farcical that these investigations are done by the same department or municipality that is involved - how often is a police shooting ever judged as anything but justified?

I would like to see some kind of independent review of police use of deadly force.

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.

Skip posted an interesting link on Facebook where this was done in Wisconsin for exactly this reason.  Don't think any other states have implemented an external reviewing body yet, though I imagine this is going to push it further toward the top of several politicians' agendas.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:31:36 am
Yeah, it's straight from the script.  It's up there with "used the force necessary to effect the arrest" to explain the broken arm.

He was a big 18 year old. 6'4", 300 lbs.  Saw a pick of the cop.  Skinny ass little dude.

I'd like to know more about the altercation, since I still think it's a bit fishy, and trying to wonder why the cop tried to engage somebody from his car.

Now I've never had to shoot somebody, but I've been in my share of drop-down, drag-out, hit-em-with-a-garbage-can-lid, wind-up-in-the-ER-together scraps...and 6'4" and 300 lbs can kill you if it's motivated enough.

Would like to know where the pepper foam was.  "Going for my gun" is sorta difficult with a triple-retention holster from the seated position in your vehicle.  The biggest threat to your gun is brandishing it too early and too close from a compromised position.

Then again, saw somebody get shot from below because he was choking out the officer from behind. The definition of "Fear for my life" gets pretty broad and ambiguous at that point.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on August 18, 2014, 10:37:14 am
Yeah, it's straight from the script.  It's up there with "used the force necessary to effect the arrest" to explain the broken arm.

He was a big 18 year old. 6'4", 300 lbs.  Saw a pick of the cop.  Skinny ass little dude.

I'd like to know more about the altercation, since I still think it's a bit fishy, and trying to wonder why the cop tried to engage somebody from his car.

Now I've never had to shoot somebody, but I've been in my share of drop-down, drag-out, hit-em-with-a-garbage-can-lid, wind-up-in-the-ER-together scraps...and 6'4" and 300 lbs can kill you if it's motivated enough.

Would like to know where the pepper foam was.  "Going for my gun" is sorta difficult with a triple-retention holster from the seated position in your vehicle.  The biggest threat to your gun is brandishing it too early and too close from a compromised position.

Then again, saw somebody get shot from below because he was choking out the officer from behind. The definition of "Fear for my life" gets pretty broad and ambiguous at that point.

The original shooting isn't the #1 issue of this anymore. While the Ferguson PD fails at basic crisis management. The St-Louis County did the situation no favor by mobilizing it's 2nd infantry battalion instead of deescalating the, well, escalation of violence.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:48:28 am
That's why all these shitty little municipal agencies that rub up next to one another--50in one town, 24 in the next adjacent town, etc.-need to all get rolled into larger jurisdictions and made into larger agencies with the staff, experience and resources necessary to deal with this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: celedhring on August 18, 2014, 10:51:19 am
A friend of mine that served in Irak was telling me the other day that they had stricter ROE regarding who can they point a gun at that the Ferguson police seemingly have.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 01:38:37 pm
That's why all these shitty little municipal agencies that rub up next to one another--50in one town, 24 in the next adjacent town, etc.-need to all get rolled into larger jurisdictions and made into larger agencies with the staff, experience and resources necessary to deal with this sort of thing.

Essentially the Sheriff's office does that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 01:43:31 pm
They're not doing it very well, but the DOJ, ACLU and the NAACP knew that.  The rest of the nation is figuring it out now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 18, 2014, 02:22:40 pm
Where the fuck is the President in this?  It has been over a week.  It took hardly any time at all for Rand Freaking Paul to chime in and he is just some Senator from a state in the neighborhood.  Obama is such a failure I just do not get it.

a senator running for presidency probably has more time to comment on these little events that pop up than a US president. i don't think some people will ever be satisfied with obama. riots over alleged police brutality are frequent. he talks about trayvon, people freak; he doesn't talk about some incident in ferguson, MO[/] and people freak. he doesn't attend a funeral, people are mad. etc.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2014, 02:25:35 pm
Obama will be speaking on the subject at 4pm EST.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 02:30:32 pm
he doesn't talk about some incident in ferguson, MO[/] and people freak. he doesn't attend a funeral, people are mad. etc.

This is not just a replay of decades of past trauma and racial violence that has poisoned this nation for centuries but it also a reflection of a crisis brought on by federal policies.  He needs to show leadership here.  I hope whatever he plans to do now at 4 PM EST provides some direction to this.

And yeah being President carries certain burdens.  If he doesn't like pressure and people freaking he should have stayed a Senator.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 18, 2014, 04:24:35 pm
It is only money, this is a full blown national disgrace and disaster unfolding that threatens the legitimacy of the cops everywhere.
...
  This is about the cops escalating the situation by attacking the protestors and triggering a break down in law and order through their mismanagement and tinear understanding of how to handle a situation where a cop kills a member of a community.  And it just keeps going, it is a miracle nobody else has been killed yet or we do not have riots breaking out in other cities.
Maybe. But isn't the national disgrace that this is an aspect of how policing is and, as importantly, is perceived to be for African-Americans. Isn't the shift that white America's noticed?

Quote
Where the fuck is the President in this?  It has been over a week.  It took hardly any time at all for Rand Freaking Paul to chime in and he is just some Senator from a state in the neighborhood.  Obama is such a failure I just do not get it.
I think this chimes with Rand Paul's politics. But he's still working at increasing support for Republicans among the GOP (and I suspect his slightly libertarian version is the best ideological match). Again a reason I like Rand is that he didn't just retreat after that Howard embarrassment. On a number of issues (that disproportionately affect African-Americans) he's right, which is the key. For engagement to work you've got to show up regularly, not just on election years; have a genuine policy basis to talk about; and use the right language. He's lagging on the latter but that's it.

Quote
That's why all these shitty little municipal agencies that rub up next to one another--50in one town, 24 in the next adjacent town, etc.-need to all get rolled into larger jurisdictions and made into larger agencies with the staff, experience and resources necessary to deal with this sort of thing.
I think this is true. It's true here too.

A police force is one of those things people get attached to though, like a local hospital or a regiment, even if they're no longer terribly efficient or able to cope.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 18, 2014, 06:05:39 pm
Putting an officer on administative leave is a normal part of the SOP while a shooting investigation is ongoing. It is not a punishment, or any kind of statement about the suspected outcome of said investigation.

I do think it is a little farcical that these investigations are done by the same department or municipality that is involved - how often is a police shooting ever judged as anything but justified?

I would like to see some kind of independent review of police use of deadly force.

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.

Skip posted an interesting link on Facebook where this was done in Wisconsin for exactly this reason.  Don't think any other states have implemented an external reviewing body yet, though I imagine this is going to push it further toward the top of several politicians' agendas.
Kinda like the IRS asking you to audit yourself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2014, 06:22:30 pm
Obama apparently sending nothing much of note.

As much as all of this is awful, I'm glad to see attention being given to this issue again. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:01:47 pm
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:06:08 pm

Getty photographer arrested #ferguson
http://instagram.com/p/r20Wfwssp8/ (http://instagram.com/p/r20Wfwssp8/)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 07:54:08 pm
Good.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:32:19 pm
Quote
The City of Ferguson has hired a PR firm

If you call the City of Ferguson asking for a media representative, chances are your name will instead be sent to a small public relations firm called Common Ground PR.

After more than a week of unrest following Michael Brown’s shooting death, the city is overwhelmed with the sheer crush of national and global media on the scene.

Enter Common Ground, a seven-person PR firm based in Chesterfield, Mo. that has been charged with “helping triage media queries,” according to Denise Bentele, president and CEO of the firm.

“The city is only trying to be responsive to you guys,” Bentele said. “This is a little city and they don’t have public relations or media staff.”

Bentele couldn’t say how long the “short-term” contract with Ferguson will last, but judging by the fact that the city’s doesn’t have a functioning Web site at the moment, they may well need the extra help.

 :lol: Some have also noted that in the midst of an enormous amount of racial strife, the PR firm hired by the city appears to be entirely white:  http://www.commongroundpr.com/meet-the-team.aspx (http://www.commongroundpr.com/meet-the-team.aspx)

1) First order of business by the white PR firm:  subcontract a minority-owned PR firm.  Or Quicy Jones.  Somebody.  Shit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:36:31 pm
Was reading the autopsy.  Cause of death: lead poisoning.
Apparently the 6th shot, at the apex of the skull, was the Tekken 3 finishing move.  Yeah, I'd say so.

Autopsy's one thing, shooting reconstruction is another.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:47:40 pm
The derspiess demographic speaks out:

Quote
Nearly half of Americans say race is getting too much attention in the Ferguson coverage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog-live/liveblog/live-updates-chaos-in-ferguson/?id=6a8f3f7b-4c75-42bb-8ccb-d31bf15a2524

LOL I WONDER WHICH HALF
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:07:31 pm
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)

Good work Raz!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 09:29:34 pm
The derspiess demographic speaks out:

Quote
Nearly half of Americans say race is getting too much attention in the Ferguson coverage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog-live/liveblog/live-updates-chaos-in-ferguson/?id=6a8f3f7b-4c75-42bb-8ccb-d31bf15a2524 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog-live/liveblog/live-updates-chaos-in-ferguson/?id=6a8f3f7b-4c75-42bb-8ccb-d31bf15a2524)

LOL I WONDER WHICH HALF

My liberal gay brother doesn't think it's about race.  Of course, he's a liberal gay stupid brother.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 09:30:47 pm
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)

Good work Raz!

I think they are attacking the Wainwright building.  I'll be down there tomorrow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:35:17 pm
Maybe. But isn't the national disgrace that this is an aspect of how policing is and, as importantly, is perceived to be for African-Americans. Isn't the shift that white America's noticed?

I cannot speak for the great hive mind of white America but unless you are super isolated from the culture at large I have a hard time seeing somebody not know this.  This has been something talked about in our culture for decades, both as a source of black comedy and in earnest.  The shift may be that now it can be live streamed so white Europe (and everybody else) can notice now if they want to.  But I guess I fail to see how it really matters who is being victimized here, the actions of the cops are a disgrace either way.  It only makes it worse that it is part of a larger cultural disgrace.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 18, 2014, 10:28:52 pm
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)

Good work Raz!

I think they are attacking the Wainwright building.  I'll be down there tomorrow.

That's messed up, Adam's having a great year.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:30:29 pm
That joke was a balk.  Raz, take your base.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2014, 11:23:44 pm
Maybe. But isn't the national disgrace that this is an aspect of how policing is and, as importantly, is perceived to be for African-Americans. Isn't the shift that white America's noticed?

I cannot speak for the great hive mind of white America but unless you are super isolated from the culture at large I have a hard time seeing somebody not know this.  This has been something talked about in our culture for decades, both as a source of black comedy and in earnest.  The shift may be that now it can be live streamed so white Europe (and everybody else) can notice now if they want to.  But I guess I fail to see how it really matters who is being victimized here, the actions of the cops are a disgrace either way.  It only makes it worse that it is part of a larger cultural disgrace.

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 08:29:18 am
As I said I cannot speak for the hive mind, probably the same people who explained how Rodney King deserved it.

Man remember the days when the cops only beat people?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 09:50:03 am

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 09:56:16 am

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.

I remember Rush Limbaugh ranting on how Obama was a black panther who was going to take vengeance on white people.  Obama.  The dude does not have a radical bone in his body.  It was just a total racist fantasy story about the threatening black dude.

Speaking of Obama that speech was total weak sauce.  He is pretty worthless as a leader. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 19, 2014, 10:16:48 am

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.

I remember Rush Limbaugh ranting on how Obama was a black panther who was going to take vengeance on white people.  Obama.  The dude does not have a radical bone in his body.  It was just a total racist fantasy story about the threatening black dude.

Speaking of Obama that speech was total weak sauce.  He is pretty worthless as a leader.

I agree that Obama is a bit of a caretaker president, but I'm unsure as to what he ought to be saying in a case like this.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 10:19:32 am
The guy's an Ivy League law grad who would be vacationing in Martha's Vinyard even if he wasn't President of the United States.

You've got more in common with the Dazzling Urbanites of Ferguson than he does.

Edit: Post was for Valmy, not Malthus the Privileged Jew  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 10:20:48 am
I can't think of anything productive for him to say.  He could ask for calm, and at the same time ask the Russians to dissolve their nuclear arsenal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:08:34 am

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.

I remember Rush Limbaugh ranting on how Obama was a black panther who was going to take vengeance on white people.  Obama.  The dude does not have a radical bone in his body.  It was just a total racist fantasy story about the threatening black dude.

Speaking of Obama that speech was total weak sauce.  He is pretty worthless as a leader.

I agree that Obama is a bit of a caretaker president, but I'm unsure as to what he ought to be saying in a case like this.

I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 11:19:55 am
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

And not too off the mark. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 19, 2014, 11:27:12 am
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

Seems about right.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:27:39 am
Well he did look ridiculous on that Harvard thing. Played his race card too quick and on a largely spurious incident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 11:32:20 am
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

I guess that explains it.  The Republicans hate him so therefore he cannot do anything for fear it may be counter-productive?  Man obstruction really is a winning strategy.  However it is not like he is taking strong stands on none racially charged issues either.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:34:03 am
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

I guess that explains it.  The Republicans hate him so therefore he cannot do anything for fear it may be counter-productive?  Man obstruction really is a winning strategy.

:hmm:

I don't think that is what the article was saying. I think it was suggesting that Obama has a tendency to amp up racial situations rather than defusing them. Why should he take actions that'll do more harm than good?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 11:38:25 am
I don't think that is what the article was saying. I think it was suggesting that Obama has a tendency to amp up racial situations rather than defusing them. Why should he take actions that'll do more harm than good?

I thought that is what I meant by 'counter-productive'.  And anyway the graph only showed 'Republicans versus Democrats' so that is why I went with the party angle there.  Most whites are not Republicans, though the opposite is true.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 19, 2014, 11:56:41 am
Not from the Onion:

Quote
Egypt urges U.S. restraint over Missouri unrest

(Reuters) - Egypt on Tuesday urged U.S. authorities to exercise restraint in dealing with racially charged demonstrations in Ferguson, Missouri - echoing language Washington used to caution Egypt as it cracked down on Islamist protesters last year.

U.S. foes Iran and Syria also lambasted the United States, but while they are frequent critics of Washington, it is unusual for Egypt to criticize such a major donor. It was not immediately clear why Egypt would issue such a statement.

Ties between Washington and Cairo were strained after Egyptian security forces killed hundreds of Muslim Brotherhood supporters following the army's ousting of freely elected President Mohamed Mursi in July 2013.

The Egyptian Foreign Ministry's statement on the unrest in Ferguson read similarly to one issued by U.S. President Barack Obama's administration in July 2013, when the White House "urged security forces to exercise maximum restraint and caution" in dealing with demonstrations by Mursi supporters.

The ministry added it was "closely following the escalation of protests" in Ferguson, unleashed by the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white policeman on Aug. 9.

Human Rights Watch said in a report last week Egyptian security forces systematically used excessive force against Islamist protesters after Mursi was ousted. Egypt said the report was "characterized by negativity and bias".

In a second day of Twitter messages about the disturbances in Ferguson, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei criticized the United States as "egotistical and unreliable".

He also sought to link the unrest to Washington's support of Israel, sworn foe of Tehran.

"Brutal treatment of black people isn’t indeed the only anti-human rights act by U.S. govt; look at US’s green light to #Israel’s crimes," he wrote on Monday, adding Washington was the world's "biggest violator" of human rights.

Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister for European and American Affairs Takht Ravanchi on Monday accused Washington of "racist behavior and oppression", the Fars News Agency said.

In Syria, another U.S. adversary, a bulletin from state news agency SANA accused police in Ferguson of "racist and oppressive practices".

Pro-government media in Turkey, where the authorities came under U.S. criticism for a heavy-handed clampdown on weeks of protests around Istanbul's Gezi Park last year, also took a swipe.

"You were sounding off when Gezi was happening ... You crook with double standards," wrote Ahmet Sagirli, a columnist in the Turkiye newspaper.


(Reporting by Maggie Fick in Cairo, Oliver Holmes in Beirut, Michelle Moghtader in Dubai, Selin Bucak in Istanbul; Editing by Alison Williams)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 12:05:04 pm
As I said now this gets live streamed around the world.  So here we go.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 12:15:53 pm
As I said now this gets live streamed around the world.  So here we go.

Who cares?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 12:51:47 pm
As I said now this gets live streamed around the world.  So here we go.

Who cares?

People on message boards who talk to foreigners a lot?  I have already come into contact with Euros who seem to think that in Texas we shoot all foreigners on sight so probably just more of that.  Oh and smug Egyptians.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 01:17:44 pm
Do you think that you can cure people of ignorance on message boards?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 19, 2014, 01:22:56 pm
Do you think that you can cure people of ignorance on message boards?

I used to. Then I discovered that infecting them with ignorance was easier, and more fun.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 01:33:33 pm
Do you think that you can cure people of ignorance on message boards?

Hey you asked who might care.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 01:56:23 pm
fuck all foreigners.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 19, 2014, 02:16:23 pm
fuck all foreigners.

Funny. That's what the French say! :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 19, 2014, 02:17:15 pm
fuck all foreigners.

I don't have the time.  :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 02:18:25 pm
fuck all foreigners.

I don't have the time.  :(

I quit at one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 19, 2014, 02:35:13 pm

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Ferguson, MO and Police Militarization (HBO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:50:02 pm
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/BREAKING-Officer-involved-shooting-in-St-Louis-271876701.html

Quote
A 23-year-old man was shot and killed after showing a knife to an officer in North St. Louis, according to Chief Sam Dotson.

Dotson confirmed that there was a fatal officer-involved shooting around 12:30 p.m. at McLaran Avenue and Riverview Drive in North St. Louis. 

According to Dotson, the suspect stole two energy drinks from the Six Stars Market in the 8700 block of Riverview. Dotson said after the suspect walked out of the store with the drinks, he went back inside the store and grabbed a pastry. Dotson said the store owner followed the suspect out of the store and police were dispatched to the area.

According to police, the suspect pulled out a knife and was acting erratically when officers arrived. Dotson told reporters the suspect told responding officers to “shoot me now, kill me now.”   Dotson said officers asked the suspect to drop the knife, which he was holding in an overhead grip, and the suspect refused to do.



When the suspect approached the officers carrying a knife, officers fired shots striking the suspect. The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene of the shooting.

When asked about the validity of the shooting, Dotson said officers "have a right to defend yourself."

Mayor Francis Slay tweeted that there will be a "complete and transparent" investigation into the shooting.  He pledged that St. Louis "will know everything I know."

A large, peaceful crowd quickly came to the scene of the shooting.  Some said police had other options, and did not have use lethal force.

"It's in their best interest, with Ferguson and everything going on, to use a taser," said Tommy Lee, a resident of the area. 

"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 07:53:23 pm
Well wasn't he moving to attack them with a deadly weapon?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 19, 2014, 07:54:41 pm
He was kinda askin for it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 07:54:45 pm
Hey Val, cops are taught to shoot to kill when they fire their weapon. There is none of that shoot to wound bullcrap.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 pm
Well wasn't he moving to attack them with a deadly weapon?

Well fortunately they have video this time so hopefully we will have a better idea of how justified it was but man....it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

Quote
He was kinda askin for it.

Quite literally.

Quote
Hey Val, cops are taught to shoot to kill when they fire their weapon. There is none of that shoot to wound bullcrap.

Well that is just fucking awesome.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 19, 2014, 08:30:07 pm
Ugh.  This whole thing just took a weird twist: the owner's now saying nobody from his store reported a shoplifting and released surveillance video from BEFORE the shove showing Michael Brown paying for cigars while leaving more on the counter.

If true, I hope the PD gets slammed right after the officer is successfully prosecuted.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 08:47:26 pm
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2014, 09:00:27 pm
Let that be a lesson for any foreigners thinking about visiting the US: in your culture it may be accepted to brandish a knife and wave it around in a gendarme's face as a show of braggadacio and rejection of authority, but in the US it's generally frowned upon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 19, 2014, 10:19:38 pm
Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.
Oh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2014, 10:23:17 pm
Ugh.  This whole thing just took a weird twist: the owner's now saying nobody from his store reported a shoplifting and released surveillance video from BEFORE the shove showing Michael Brown paying for cigars while leaving more on the counter.

If true, I hope the PD gets slammed right after the officer is successfully prosecuted.
Link?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 20, 2014, 02:01:20 am
Oh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.

well, yeah, valmy appears to be getting increasingly agitated past the point of reasonableness
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 08:20:44 am
Ugh.  This whole thing just took a weird twist: the owner's now saying nobody from his store reported a shoplifting and released surveillance video from BEFORE the shove showing Michael Brown paying for cigars while leaving more on the counter.

If true, I hope the PD gets slammed right after the officer is successfully prosecuted.

The shooting had nothing to do with whether or not he shoplifted though.  The police had no idea so I don't think it implicates the officer in question any.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 08:22:43 am
Oh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.

well, yeah, valmy appears to be getting increasingly agitated past the point of reasonableness

Asking questions that make you uncomfortable is not an indication that I am agitated past the point of reasonableness. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 20, 2014, 08:24:10 am
Oh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.

well, yeah, valmy appears to be getting increasingly agitated past the point of reasonableness

Asking questions that make you uncomfortable is not an indication that I am agitated past the point of reasonableness. 

At the same time, it did appear to me that you were taking issue with what didn't seem like an unreasonable action on the apart of officers who had someone coming at them with a knife drawn.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2014, 08:30:56 am
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.
How reliable is a tazer?  Couldn't they have tazed the guy?  I know there must be a limitation to tazers that I am unaware of, because one would think that every cop would have one were they reliable.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 08:38:10 am
Tazers seem pretty reliable from what I've seen, provided officers have them.  Not all agencies do.  And if the gendarmes jump into the phone booth to change into their Waffen-SS outfits, they may not have them available.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: PDH on August 20, 2014, 08:43:41 am
Tazers aren't as cool as an APC.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 am
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.

Well the guy seems to be mentally unstable and seems like he was going for suicide-by-cop.  It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:15:57 am
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:22:00 am
At the same time, it did appear to me that you were taking issue with what didn't seem like an unreasonable action on the apart of officers who had someone coming at them with a knife drawn.

My issue was with their training.  Just like my issues with their equipment.  It may indeed be the case that in that situation any police department around the world would be expected to gun that guy down, after all that was what he wanted the cops to do, but I was questioning if there really was no non-lethal way to deal with it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:22:57 am
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

I think maintenance of public order should be a police concern.  Why is it upsetting that it would be?  Lives and property are at stake.  Killing people in a community is a last resort.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:28:27 am
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

I think maintenance of public order should be a police concern.  Why is it upsetting that it would be?  Lives and property are at stake.  Killing people in a community is a last resort.
That's the thing, it should always be a last resort, and thus it shouldn't be conditional on the riot situation in general.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 20, 2014, 09:30:57 am
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/BREAKING-Officer-involved-shooting-in-St-Louis-271876701.html

Quote
A 23-year-old man was shot and killed after showing a knife to an officer in North St. Louis, according to Chief Sam Dotson.

Dotson confirmed that there was a fatal officer-involved shooting around 12:30 p.m. at McLaran Avenue and Riverview Drive in North St. Louis. 

According to Dotson, the suspect stole two energy drinks from the Six Stars Market in the 8700 block of Riverview. Dotson said after the suspect walked out of the store with the drinks, he went back inside the store and grabbed a pastry. Dotson said the store owner followed the suspect out of the store and police were dispatched to the area.

According to police, the suspect pulled out a knife and was acting erratically when officers arrived. Dotson told reporters the suspect told responding officers to “shoot me now, kill me now.”   Dotson said officers asked the suspect to drop the knife, which he was holding in an overhead grip, and the suspect refused to do.



When the suspect approached the officers carrying a knife, officers fired shots striking the suspect. The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene of the shooting.

When asked about the validity of the shooting, Dotson said officers "have a right to defend yourself."

Mayor Francis Slay tweeted that there will be a "complete and transparent" investigation into the shooting.  He pledged that St. Louis "will know everything I know."

A large, peaceful crowd quickly came to the scene of the shooting.  Some said police had other options, and did not have use lethal force.

"It's in their best interest, with Ferguson and everything going on, to use a taser," said Tommy Lee, a resident of the area. 

"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.

Valmy - use of a Taser would be appropriate, if the officer in question had a taser.

It's tough to say since you're only going by a few words in a newspaper article, but it sounds as if the use of deadly force may have been justified here.  A knife is a deadly weapon.  Police are trained that a person with a knife can approach and strike you very quickly.  Standard procedure would be for police to maintain their distance and try and talk this guy down, but if he gets too close and refuses demands to drop the knife they can and should use deadly force.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:34:02 am
That's the thing, it should always be a last resort, and thus it shouldn't be conditional on the riot situation in general.

Indeed.  But the whole controversy is if the police are becoming militarized and shooting a bit too liberally (and maybe are all racists blah blah) is it not? 

Anyway fortunately in this case it is on tape, as it should be, so the situation can be reviewed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 am
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 20, 2014, 10:41:58 am
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Derp. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2014, 12:49:17 pm
Tazers seem pretty reliable from what I've seen, provided officers have them.  Not all agencies do.  And if the gendarmes jump into the phone booth to change into their Waffen-SS outfits, they may not have them available.

One thing the Cincy PD learned the hard way is you don't tase a robbery suspect while he's climbing over top of a fence :pinch:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 20, 2014, 01:02:56 pm
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Ah fuck that was funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 20, 2014, 02:13:09 pm
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Every once in a while, I read an article about some bonehead who goads his buddy into "just take a stab, man, I'm wearing my bulletproof vest ...".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2014, 02:20:15 pm
I hadn't paid attention to this until today because we were doing our Cabin Weekend mini-vacation down in Tennessee.  But apparently the developments caused my lefty co-worker of color (who insists on talking politics in the office) to change his tune a bit.  He's no longer calling the shooting an "execution".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 20, 2014, 05:33:23 pm
I drove through there yesterday.  You'd think form the news that there is this enormous ghetto in flames.  The protests are on like three blocks.  Folks there seemed to be just normal folks, going about their business.  I'm beginning to think everything would have been better if nobody outside the community had come in at all and it was just a local issue.  Nobody gave a shit that some crazy guy got shot in St. Louis city yesterday.  Most of the residents moved out of the city to get away from shit like that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 20, 2014, 06:09:04 pm
I drove through there yesterday.  You'd think form the news that there is this enormous ghetto in flames.  The protests are on like three blocks.  Folks there seemed to be just normal folks, going about their business.  I'm beginning to think everything would have been better if nobody outside the community had come in at all and it was just a local issue.  Nobody gave a shit that some crazy guy got shot in St. Louis city yesterday.  Most of the residents moved out of the city to get away from shit like that.

Hell, that Jake Tapper wuss was comparing it to Bagram in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 20, 2014, 07:14:26 pm
He was talking about the milspec gear.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 20, 2014, 07:15:23 pm
He's still a wuss.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2014, 09:12:39 pm
Heard today the officer was pretty beat up after this.  Had to do xrays see if his skull was fractured.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 21, 2014, 09:19:23 pm
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

But it can puncture one's face/femoral artery, etc.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2014, 09:25:37 pm
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

But it can puncture one's face/femoral artery, etc.

OK.... :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 21, 2014, 09:37:14 pm
(http://media.giphy.com/media/11JjjqPNDtu396/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 21, 2014, 10:07:21 pm
Quote
"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

But it can puncture one's face/femoral artery, etc.

OK.... :mellow:

I was decrying the implication from the original quote that all attacks on officers go for the vest.  <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2014, 10:36:01 pm
I've hard that in prisons guards wear special gear that is more resistant to knives and such.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Siege on August 22, 2014, 03:23:16 am
Dude, a knife is a fucking toy in the hands of an untrained wanna-be knifer.


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 22, 2014, 06:34:43 am
Dude, a knife is a fucking toy in the hands of an untrained wanna-be knifer.



And that's how Siege won the respect of the guys in the Octagon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 22, 2014, 07:20:31 am
Dude, a knife is a fucking toy in the hands of an untrained wanna-be knifer.



And that's how Siege won the respect of the guys in the Octagon.
:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 22, 2014, 11:07:00 am
An assault rifle and body armor puts you at an immediate disadvantage?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2014, 11:08:54 am
http://rt.com/politics/182116-russian-commission-ferguson-osce/

Quote
Senior MP calls for intl commission to assess US domestic crisis in Ferguson

Deputy State Duma speaker Sergey Neverov has called for various international organizations to create a joint group to assess the US authorities’ handling of the ongoing protest in the town of Ferguson.

Neverov, who also chairs the majority United Russia caucus in the Lower House, has told reporters that the international community must not remain indifferent to the crisis situation in the United States – the country that presents itself as a model for democracy. “The events in Missouri have demonstrated that the United States have serious problems based on racial discrimination,” Neverov noted in a comment to the Russian daily Izvestia.

The politician said that United Russia wanted to set up a special commission manned with representatives of the UN, PACE and other international groups that would make contact with participants of the events in Ferguson, Missouri, and investigate the lawfulness of the actions of US authorities and law enforcers.

Neverov added that the chairman of the Lower House committee for international relations MP Aleksei Pushkov (United Russia) could head the Russian part of the international commission.

In mid-August, Pushkov denounced the use of tear gas and rubber bullets in Ferguson as “a sign of dictatorship and an excessive use of force” by posting a message on his Twitter.

Izvestia quoted a source in the United Russia party saying they wanted the Russian part of the commission to be manned by MPs, who now participate in the Russian delegation in the PACE.

On Thursday a member of the Presidential Council for Human Rights suggested sending a peacekeeping mission of rights activists to Ferguson in order to stop the violence. Igor Borison told the ITAR-TASS news agency that the measure would prevent “a full scale genocide against its own population” in the United States.

Earlier this week, the Russian Foreign Ministry’s envoy for Human Rights, Konstantin Dolgov, said that the unrest in Ferguson was a vivid demonstration of the extreme tensions that exist in modern American society. Dolgov called the curfew, the violent dispersing of rallies and the deployment of the National Guard to the area “a repetition of the race cataclysms” that have shaken the United States in the past.

“While demanding that other countries guarantee the freedom of speech and stop suppressing anti-government protests, at home the US authorities never show any leniency towards those who actively express their discontent with inequality, de-facto discrimination, and the position of second class citizens. As we have all seen, reporters who perform their professional duty also get their share of ill treatment,” read the comment posted on the ministry’s website.

Tensions remain in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson where the Missouri governor announced on Monday that he had ordered National Guard troops to be deployed to protect the area from “deliberate, coordinated and intensifying violent attacks on lives and property.” The clashes resumed during the week as police used tear gas to disperse protesters. Law enforcers also used live ammunition against the crowd.

The initial protests were prompted by the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old black man who was shot and killed by white police officer, Darren Wilson, on August 9.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 22, 2014, 11:27:53 am
Russians are welcome to send any delegates to Ferguson they want.  I have some other neighborhoods I could suggest as well.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 22, 2014, 04:25:37 pm
They should start with investigating official abuse of power in Syria.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 02:45:06 am
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 24, 2014, 07:18:14 am
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.

Did it take this long for that news to float over there by message bottle?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 07:50:54 am
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.

Did it take this long for that news to float over there by message bottle?

Well, I just read it in the Economist. I didn't read it all in one sitting and the American section is later on. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 27, 2014, 02:34:09 am
The Valmyites strike back

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-killing-of-kajieme-powell/378899/

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051431/did-the-st-louis-police-have-to-shoot-kajieme-powell/in/5757650
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 06:15:15 am
The only thing I don't get about that shooting is that the officers apparently had tasers.  Now, it's a difficult call for one officer to be placed in that situation, but there were two:  your partner is covering you with his firearm if you attempt to use the taser and it fails, or the individual suddenly charges.

One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

Quote
But all Powell had was a steak knife. If the police had been in their car, with the windows rolled up, he could have done little to hurt them.

Lulz.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:05:41 am
One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

It seems to me like much of the time the question is not "Must I shoot this person?" but rather "Can I shoot this person?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 27, 2014, 08:30:31 am
I really liked this bit that was quoted in the Atlantic article (admittedly from some blog). Given that knives are often used in Britain, but seldom are the perpetrators shot dead there, it seems that American police are way too trigger happy.

 
Quote
    I suspect the protocol in Britain would be to park at a relatively distance, order civilians to get back, call for back-up and specialist assistance, while monitoring to ensure that Mr. Powell poses no threat to himself or anybody else. What caused the situation to escalate to the point that the police felt so threatened that they needed to open fire in a mentally ill man carrying a knife at his side was the arrival of the police. There is a serious problem in how US police perceive and deal with "threats." Mentally-ill people, even ones with knives, are primarily a threat to themselves.
     
    I know that American police face different risks than British ones, and that gun violence is higher... so let's park the gun issue and look at the threat from knives on its own. In 2013 armed police were deployed in the UK about 12,000 times. They fired 3 shots and killed nobody. I don't know how many of those incidents involved knives, but I suspect it was more than one. The St. Louis P.D. bested that in 15 seconds when they fired 9 bullets into Mr. Powell. American gun enthusiasts and police officers always say "you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to neutralize the threat." So do British police, and they successfully neutralize the threat with both fewer shots fired and fewer dead citizens. "But the British armed police are top marksmen!" is usually another reply.
     
    Well... that's an argument for better firearms training of US officers instead of an excuse for their poor accuracy...
     
    The most disturbing aspect of this for me is that the police fired several bullets into Kajieme Powell's body while he lay wounded on the ground, and yet they apparently wanted this video released as it was "exculpatory." There exists a very deep chasm between what the Police view as justified and what, I think, most reasonable citizens would.  In a democratic country where the rule of law exists in such a difference of opinion the difference must always be settled on the side of the people, who are sovereign. In the United States it seems to be settled far too frequently, to put it at its lowest, on the side of the Police.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:37:34 am
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.

The owners of the shop, out of fear, were adamant that they did not call the cops when they were robbed.  An eyewitness apparently called it in, but the shop owners still paid for it anyway.  They'll probably pay for it again.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:39:31 am
One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

It seems to me like much of the time the question is not "Must I shoot this person?" but rather "Can I shoot this person?"

Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 08:43:13 am
Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"

We used to call that "training".  But nice try.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:45:28 am
Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"

We used to call that "training".  But nice try.

Go on.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 08:54:37 am
Eat me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:54:50 am
One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

It seems to me like much of the time the question is not "Must I shoot this person?" but rather "Can I shoot this person?"

Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"

I don't buy it.

I don't buy the argument that the cops really do need to shoot all these people in order to protect themselves.

It is right up there with the "If it saves one child..." type arguments to justify, well, almost anything.

Is there a rampant problem with police officers being stabbed all the time, such that it is reasonable to shoot people to remove even the smallest threat of it happening?

Statistics show that being a police officer is a pretty safe job overall.

I don't accept the claim, on face value, that policing is so dangerous that using deadly force is reasonable to reduce the chances that they are injured by some very small amount. If the chances of some mentally deranged individual successfully injuring someone with a knife is so high that it is reasonable to shoot him before he actually tries to injure anyone, then I suspect we would see a lot more of those injuries.

Now, if the guy is actually making an attempt, then fine. If the guy is threatening someone else in a credible manner, fine.

If he is just waving a knife around and babbling, then I guess that is a "threat", and meets the strict criteria of a justified use of deadly force, but pretty much completely misses the actual part where we might expect officers to use judgement and discretion, rather than simply noting "Yep, he has done something that meets the minimal definition to justify me blowing him away, so Yeah! I get to shoot him 9 times".

Or, like I said, there is a difference between "Can I shoot him?" and "Must I shoot him?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:04:56 am
I don't buy it.

I don't buy the argument that the cops really do need to shoot all these people in order to protect themselves.

It is right up there with the "If it saves one child..." type arguments to justify, well, almost anything.

Is there a rampant problem with police officers being stabbed all the time, such that it is reasonable to shoot people to remove even the smallest threat of it happening?

Statistics show that being a police officer is a pretty safe job overall.

I'm pretty sure that varies widely depending on location.

Quote
I don't accept the claim, on face value, that policing is so dangerous that using deadly force is reasonable to reduce the chances that they are injured by some very small amount. If the chances of some mentally deranged individual successfully injuring someone with a knife is so high that it is reasonable to shoot him before he actually tries to injure anyone, then I suspect we would see a lot more of those injuries.

Now, if the guy is actually making an attempt, then fine. If the guy is threatening someone else in a credible manner, fine.

If he is just waving a knife around and babbling, then I guess that is a "threat", and meets the strict criteria of a justified use of deadly force, but pretty much completely misses the actual part where we might expect officers to use judgement and discretion, rather than simply noting "Yep, he has done something that meets the minimal definition to justify me blowing him away, so Yeah! I get to shoot him 9 times".

Or, like I said, there is a difference between "Can I shoot him?" and "Must I shoot him?"

In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

Now I'm okay with using this event as a reasonable discussion as to what possible non-lethal options a cop has in this type of scenario as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 27, 2014, 09:11:58 am
as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

As long as we stay away from what certainly is reality a non negligible portion of time?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 27, 2014, 09:15:06 am
In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:17:43 am
As long as we stay away from what certainly is reality a non negligible portion of time?

Bean pie, my brotha?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 27, 2014, 09:22:54 am
I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

But you are watching with the perspective of someone who knows the dude gets shot by the cops, and looking for ways that could have been prevented.

Presumably the cops confronted the guy because crazy people brandishing knives in public places are prone to stab people. If they kept a significant distance, and instead of what happened the guy went after a bystander, and the police were not able to intervene because they were too far away (or worse, shot and missed, hitting another bystander), they would be getting criticized for being too standoffish.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 27, 2014, 09:28:10 am
In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

Cause they were called in to stop the guy?  The man was a danger to the public, which is why the police were dispatched to begin with.  They can't realistically do that from inside the car or across the street.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2014, 02:27:19 am
Wasn't sure where to put it, so I put it into this by now generic "Cops shoot people" thread.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/27/showbiz/cops-crew-member-shot-killed/

Quote
'Cops' crew member killed in police shooting

(CNN) -- A crew member working on a taping of "Cops" was inadvertently shot and killed by a police officer during a robbery in Omaha, Nebraska, local officials said Wednesday.

Bryce Dion, an audio technician, is believed to be the first member of the "Cops" production staff killed in the 25-year history of the television show.

The production company behind "Cops," Langley Productions, said in a statement that it was "deeply saddened and shocked by this tragedy and our main concern is helping his family in any way we can."

Dion, 38, had been in Omaha all summer, helping with the production of future "Cops" episodes. The production company described him as a "long term member of the 'Cops' team and a very talented and dedicated person." His resume lists credits on "Cops" dating back to 2009.

Todd Schmaderer, the Omaha police chief, confirmed at a Wednesday afternoon news conference that a bullet fired by an officer struck Dion during a shootout with the robbery suspect, Cortez Washington, who was also killed.

Schmaderer described Dion as a friend to the officers that he'd been embedded with.

"This is as if we lost one of our own," Schmaderer said. "That is the grieving process we're going through right now."

Dion and a cameraman were traveling with police officers who responded to a robbery inside a Wendy's restaurant on Tuesday night. Schmaderer said the suspect, Washington, fired two shots at the responding officers, who responded with a barrage of gunfire.

It was later discovered that Washington had a pellet gun that fired plastic bullets.

As Washington tried to exit the Wendy's, he passed through a vestibule where Dion was positioned. The "Cops" cameraman was crouched down in another part of the restaurant.

After being struck by a single gunshot, Dion "collapsed just inside the east doorway," according to the police chief.

Washington collapsed outside.

Now, as an investigation ensues, the cameraman's footage has become evidence.

"Based on our viewing of the footage, the officers had no choice other than to respond (the way) they did," Schmaderer said, anticipating questions about why so many shots were fired.

When asked at the press conference if the officers could have been "showing off for the cameras," Schmaderer called that "absolutely ridiculous."

"This was a very harrowing situation," he said.

Asked whether "Cops" would stop production in Omaha, the police chief said, "We haven't gotten that far." The investigation is ongoing, he said, and is relying in part on the "Cops" team's footage.

"Mr. Dion played the ultimate price for his service -- to provide the footage of the real-life dangers that law enforcement officers face on a daily basis to television viewers throughout the world," Schmaderer said.

The crew was reportedly scheduled to wrap up production in the coming days.

"I've seen six or seven of the shows that can be aired, and it just shows amazing professionalism," Schmaderer said.

"Cops," often called one of the original reality shows, was televised by the Fox network for 24 years. Last year it shifted over to the cable channel Spike.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 07:25:55 am
In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

This would be a valid argument if the policeman was immobilized for some reason (such as defending someone else who couldn't move), but, in this case, the mere "he got close" argument fails because the cop LET him get close.  Had the cops backed up as the knife-wielder advanced (which it looks to me like they could do without a problem), then the "he got close' trigger isn't pulled and neither are the pistol triggers.

I have big problems with cops dropping citizens as a matter of choice.

Quote
Now I'm okay with using this event as a reasonable discussion as to what possible non-lethal options a cop has in this type of scenario as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

I am sure we are all grateful for your permission.  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 08:37:11 am
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 28, 2014, 09:01:53 am
STAND MAH GROUND
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:19:21 am
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 28, 2014, 10:23:56 am
3. Like a Tootsie Roll pop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 10:28:34 am
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:31:31 am
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

I used the Google Gibberish-English translation feature, and this still came out gibberish.  Care to re-phrase this in just plain English?  What are you deferring (and why?); how many steps is "not much?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 10:33:49 am
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

Exactly the kind of thinking that results in cops making decisions based on "Can I shoot this person" rather than "Must I shoot this person".

I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 12:16:07 pm
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

Those don't last long.  Unfortunately they usually get their 1 before then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 12:17:29 pm
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

You know me so well.  It's like you're in my mind & stuff.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 pm
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

You know me so well.  It's like you're in my mind & stuff.

You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 12:36:28 pm
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

You know me so well.  It's like you're in my mind & stuff.

Maybe it was when you applied for your concealed weapon permit, under "Reason" you wrote "Just because" in crayon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:28:37 pm
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.

Maybe it was when you applied for your concealed weapon permit, under "Reason" you wrote "Just because" in crayon.

I don't have a CCW permit.  But in Ohio you don't have to name a reason.  Shall Issue FTW
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 28, 2014, 01:53:03 pm
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:54:22 pm
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

:)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 28, 2014, 01:57:14 pm
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

A fellow Perl user! :w00t: :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 28, 2014, 02:06:48 pm
++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>-.+<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<>>>>>>.<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>-.+<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-.+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 28, 2014, 02:08:10 pm
Rolling out Brainfuck is cheating. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 02:47:06 pm
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

I'm with speiss here.  Having the police run away from the guy with the knife doesn't solve the issue that they were called in to deal with: A man was menacing people with a knife.  If they had tazers perhaps they should have used those, but the situation was unlikely to be solved without violence.  It was essentially a suicide by cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 28, 2014, 02:51:01 pm
Rolling out Brainfuck is cheating. :P

Fine.

The Infamous Hello World Program.

Romeo, a young man with a remarkable patience.
Juliet, a likewise young woman of remarkable grace.
Ophelia, a remarkable woman much in dispute with Hamlet.
Hamlet, the flatterer of Andersen Insulting A/S.


                    Act I: Hamlet's insults and flattery.

                    Scene I: The insulting of Romeo.

[Enter Hamlet and Romeo]

Hamlet:
 You lying stupid fatherless big smelly half-witted coward!
 You are as stupid as the difference between a handsome rich brave
 hero and thyself! Speak your mind!

 You are as brave as the sum of your fat little stuffed misused dusty
 old rotten codpiece and a beautiful fair warm peaceful sunny summer's
 day. You are as healthy as the difference between the sum of the
 sweetest reddest rose and my father and yourself! Speak your mind!

 You are as cowardly as the sum of yourself and the difference
 between a big mighty proud kingdom and a horse. Speak your mind.

 Speak your mind!

[Exit Romeo]

                    Scene II: The praising of Juliet.

[Enter Juliet]

Hamlet:
 Thou art as sweet as the sum of the sum of Romeo and his horse and his
 black cat! Speak thy mind!

[Exit Juliet]

                    Scene III: The praising of Ophelia.

[Enter Ophelia]

Hamlet:
 Thou art as lovely as the product of a large rural town and my amazing
 bottomless embroidered purse. Speak thy mind!

 Thou art as loving as the product of the bluest clearest sweetest sky
 and the sum of a squirrel and a white horse. Thou art as beautiful as
 the difference between Juliet and thyself. Speak thy mind!

[Exeunt Ophelia and Hamlet]


                    Act II: Behind Hamlet's back.

                    Scene I: Romeo and Juliet's conversation.

[Enter Romeo and Juliet]

Romeo:
 Speak your mind. You are as worried as the sum of yourself and the
 difference between my small smooth hamster and my nose. Speak your
 mind!

Juliet:
 Speak YOUR mind! You are as bad as Hamlet! You are as small as the
 difference between the square of the difference between my little pony
 and your big hairy hound and the cube of your sorry little
 codpiece. Speak your mind!

[Exit Romeo]

                    Scene II: Juliet and Ophelia's conversation.

[Enter Ophelia]

Juliet:
 Thou art as good as the quotient between Romeo and the sum of a small
 furry animal and a leech. Speak your mind!

Ophelia:
 Thou art as disgusting as the quotient between Romeo and twice the
 difference between a mistletoe and an oozing infected blister! Speak
 your mind!

[Exeunt]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 03:03:31 pm
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

I'm with speiss here.  Having the police run away from the guy with the knife doesn't solve the issue that they were called in to deal with: A man was menacing people with a knife.  If they had tazers perhaps they should have used those, but the situation was unlikely to be solved without violence.  It was essentially a suicide by cop.

Who said anything about running away?

This is in response to the claim that the officers had to kill him because he got close to them.

Well, it was really more like they got close to him - they could have simply backed away from him while trying to talk him down - they don't have to "run away".

He can't move towards both of them at the same time.

The point is there are options here other than just shoot the guy. Shooting him should be the last option. Yes, if he forces them into that (and he has the power to do so), then it is on him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 03:08:10 pm
If they are backing up, they are essentially running away.  It also increases the danger since the police are walking in a direction they aren't facing.  Since both officers were standing next to each other the guy with the knife could move towards both at the same time.  Besides being dangerous, backing up only delays thing since the man with the knife was approaching the officers demanding they shoot him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 03:35:24 pm
Backing up is backing up.  Running away is running away.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 04:13:26 pm
Backing up is backing up.  Running away is running away.

Exactly.  Shooting someone should be the last resort, not the first.  I am fairly confident that the perp, if he really wanted to get shot, could and would have forced the cops to shoot him, but the answer to the "shoot/don't shoot" question should not always be "shoot."  There was time here to try to talk to the guy, but the cops didn't go that route.  I won't say that they were wrong, but I will say that they appeared to me to be wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 05:49:45 pm
Backing up is backing up.  Running away is running away.

Exactly.  Shooting someone should be the last resort, not the first.  I am fairly confident that the perp, if he really wanted to get shot, could and would have forced the cops to shoot him, but the answer to the "shoot/don't shoot" question should not always be "shoot."  There was time here to try to talk to the guy, but the cops didn't go that route.  I won't say that they were wrong, but I will say that they appeared to me to be wrong.

Do you ever get tired of the absurdity of only responding to me through a third person?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 06:04:08 pm
If they are backing up, they are essentially running away.

That is farscicle. No they are not, they are backing up. I don't even know how to respond to something that bizarre.

Quote
  It also increases the danger since the police are walking in a direction they aren't facing.

Oh noes, the danger is increased! There could be a bear behind them, or perhaps a zombie!

Your right, rather than walk backwards, shooting someone is the only option.
Quote
  Since both officers were standing next to each other the guy with the knife could move towards both at the same time.

So maybe they could move away from each other, while backing up and checking their six for bears or gremlins?

Quote
Besides being dangerous, backing up only delays thing since the man with the knife was approaching the officers demanding they shoot him.

Well, we would not want to delay fulfilling his wish, now would we?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 06:12:25 pm
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 06:17:47 pm
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.

There are no "exact numbers". It depends on the circumstances, obviously. If taking 100 steps backs will result in them avoiding shooting someone, then they should take 100. If taking 1 step back results in them being a position where they have no choice but to use deadly force, then the answer is zero steps.

I trust police officers to know when they can move around safely and when they cannot. Certainly if the person in question has them pinned against something that they cannot maneuver any longer, then obviously that enters into their decision to use deadly force. It should also enter into their decision about how to approach any situation, of course.

You just don't get it - it isn't a matter of "How far should they 'have to' back up". They should back up however far is necessary. And it isn't about what they "have to" do before they can unload on someone - that is exactly the attitude I am talking about. They question is not "Can we shoot him" the question should be "Must we shoot him".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 06:21:50 pm
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.

There are no "exact numbers". It depends on the circumstances, obviously. If taking 100 steps backs will result in them avoiding shooting someone, then they should take 100. If taking 1 step back results in them being a position where they have no choice but to use deadly force, then the answer is zero steps.

I trust police officers to know when they can move around safely and when they cannot. Certainly if the person in question has them pinned against something that they cannot maneuver any longer, then obviously that enters into their decision to use deadly force. It should also enter into their decision about how to approach any situation, of course.

You just don't get it - it isn't a matter of "How far should they 'have to' back up". They should back up however far is necessary. And it isn't about what they "have to" do before they can unload on someone - that is exactly the attitude I am talking about. They question is not "Can we shoot him" the question should be "Must we shoot him".

Save your breathe, dude.  He and his twin have already decided that shooting is the first choice.  Others are far more reasonable; save it for them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 08:18:10 pm
I know you meant calling Derspeiss my "twin" was supposed be insulting, but I am actually flattered.  I have healthy respect for the man.  We may differ in politics (though not necessarily as much as we seem to on Languish), but he's decent guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2014, 08:38:57 pm
 :hmm:

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2014/08/27/st-paul-cops-allegedly-taser-and-arrest-black-male-sitting-public-space

Quote
St. Paul cops allegedly taser and arrest black male for sitting in public space
By Kristoffer Tigue, TC Daily Planet
August 27, 2014

UPDATE: Christopher Lollie, the man identified in the video claims charges against him were dropped. Read more here.

A video showing the arrest of a black St. Paul man for allegedly sitting in a public space and refusing to give up his name surfaced yesterday, Aug. 26 — only weeks after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager in Missouri re-sparked the national debate on race and police profiling.

The video, shot by the man’s cellphone, shows his interaction with officers as he attempts to pick up his children from New Horizon Academy in downtown St. Paul. As the officers force the man to put his hands behind his back, he drops his phone and the video goes black, but the audio continues and we hear the man crying for help and proclaiming that his kids are watching. Both officers in the video are white.

“Why do I have to let you know who I am?” the man asks the first female officer at the beginning of the video. “I don’t have to let you know who I am if I haven’t broken any laws.”

From the following dialogue, it appears the police were called by a store clerk, who was upset over the man sitting in front of his store. The man in the video tells the officer he was sitting in front of the store for 10 minutes as he waited for his kids to get out of school, and that the area is public and he had a right to sit there.

“The problem was —” the female officer begins.

“The problem is I’m black,” the man fires back. “It really is, because I’m not sitting there with a group of people. I’m sitting there by myself. By myself, not causing a problem.”

Eventually a second male officer approaches the man in the video and attempts to restrain him.

“I’ve got to go get my kids,” the man tells the second officer, pulling his arm away. “Please don’t touch me.”

“You’re going to go to jail then,” the second officer says.

“I’m not doing anything wrong,” the man replies.

At this point, both officers grab the man.

“Come on brother,” the man says, “This is assault.”

“I’m not your brother,” the second officer replies. “Put your hands behind your back otherwise it’s going to get ugly.”

Eventually the officers start to cuff the man and he drops his cellphone and the video goes black.

“I haven’t done anything wrong!” we hear the man yell. “Can somebody help me? That’s my kids, right there! My kids are right there!”

“Put your hands behind your back!” the male officer screams.

We hear the flicker of a Taser and the man screams out. As they move away from the cellphone, the man continues to plea to passersby to help him.

In the distance the scene calms down and the man continues to explain to the officers that he still hasn’t broken any laws, that he stayed calm, didn’t curse and wasn’t attempting to flee — making cuffing him and tasering him unnecessary.

“I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m a working man. I take care of my kids. And I get this?” we hear him say. “And you tase me. For what? I don’t have any weapons. You’re the ones with the weapons here.”

Watch the video below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UWH578nAasM
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 28, 2014, 08:50:18 pm
spiess is disappointed in the lack of gun fire.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 28, 2014, 08:50:55 pm
I know I am.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2014, 09:05:18 pm
I hope the Black Community swoops in and helps him sue. :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 09:07:34 pm
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

Officer's discretion.

Quote
I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.

Not that obvious.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on August 28, 2014, 11:43:39 pm
What I can't understand is why the cops didn't just shoot the knife out of the guy's hand when he started coming toward them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 29, 2014, 07:19:11 am
What I can't understand is why the cops didn't just shoot the knife out of the guy's hand when he started coming toward them.
Yeah, preferably while holding the gun sideways to increase the coolness factor.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 09:14:44 am
I know you meant calling Derspeiss my "twin" was supposed be insulting, but I am actually flattered.  I have healthy respect for the man.  We may differ in politics (though not necessarily as much as we seem to on Languish), but he's decent guy.

Save your breathe, dude.  He and his twin have already decided that backing up into a street with traffic would have been the wisest choice.  Others are far more reasonable; save it for them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 29, 2014, 09:21:03 am
What I have taken from all of this is that the best method of suicide is hanging out around cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:30:49 am
I know you meant calling Derspeiss my "twin" was supposed be insulting, but I am actually flattered.  I have healthy respect for the man.  We may differ in politics (though not necessarily as much as we seem to on Languish), but he's decent guy.

Save your breathe, dude.  He and his twin have already decided that backing up into a street with traffic would have been the wisest choice.  Others are far more reasonable; save it for them.

And you wonder why you are so easy to peg?

Did you watch the video?

The police could have moved down the sidewalk. They could have moved to each side of the victim. The officer on the side of the car he approached could have simply moved around the car.


Now, the guy could have forced them into it anyway of course, and given his actions, it is even likely he would have - but we will never know, because the police officers in question clearly, to me, decided that they *could* blow him away, so they did.

The guy was clearly not an imminent threat to anyone. He didn't run at them, he didn't even raise the knife.

What is scary about this video is that the police claim it exonerates them, while sane people who watch it think "That guy didn't need to be shot".

I suspect you especially approved of the two rounds they put into him while he was lying on the ground?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:40:01 am
I suspect that what spicey and the "shoot first" types don't like about the idea of backing away is that it strikes them as "backing down" - ie, see their equating moveing back with "running away".

And I don't doubt that the same "we don't have to back down" mentality is at play in some of these shootings. It is a cousin to the gun nut "stand your ground" attitude that makes shooting someone something you have the *right* to do as long as you make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed (at least in a strict legal sense), rather than a very regrettable last option in defense of your's or someone else's life.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 29, 2014, 10:05:43 am
I suspect that what spicey and the "shoot first" types don't like about the idea of backing away is that it strikes them as "backing down" - ie, see their equating moveing back with "running away".

And I don't doubt that the same "we don't have to back down" mentality is at play in some of these shootings. It is a cousin to the gun nut "stand your ground" attitude that makes shooting someone something you have the *right* to do as long as you make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed (at least in a strict legal sense), rather than a very regrettable last option in defense of your's or someone else's life.

I don't like backing up because it prevents them from doing their job.  Their job was to stop a knife wielding maniac.  The guys actions were unpredictable and he was a danger to both officers and the public.  The guy with the knife came at the officers very quickly.  He didn't appear to be very far away at all when he was shot.  Lets say the officers back up and one trips and the knife guy runs up and stabs him?  What if he suddenly turns around and goes for a bystander?  What if he he moves between the two officers so if they discharge their weapons they'd be doing it at each other.

In this case the priorities should be to protect the public, the officers themselves and the guy with the knife in that order. Backing away does not serve that purpose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 10:06:01 am
I'm sure I posted this before, but back when I worked on an ambulance we got called to a shooting. Only I wasn't listening to the radio at all, probably because I got like 2 hours sleep the night before, and we show up at the scene, I ask my partner the apartment number we are going to, grab some gear, and start heading into the building. My partner says, "hold up", and I'm thinking he is just wanting me to wait for him, so I'm like "fuck that" and start walking to the building, when a bunch of cops run past me with guns drawn into the building. Had there been a camera on me at the time, we could debate whether I had some hero complex to get close to position to help asap, or was just smartly approaching the building in a safe manner to render aid as soon as the cops cleared the building, but in reality I didn't have a clue what was going on and was just trying to get through a day after staying out till 3 the night before.

The point being, I tend to give the cops some benefit of the doubt in these situations. They don't get paid much, probably don't give much of a shit about the day to day grind, probably aren't too smart to begin with, and maybe are distracted by a fight with the missus, the kids fucking up in school, a hangover, or something else. They get called to check out a nutty dude with a knife. Just another chore in the day. Then the nutty dude starts to approach them--suddenly it isn't just more bullshit, they are in real danger. They had to make a quick decision, and the existence of an alternative may not have occurred to them at that moment.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 10:28:12 am
I'm sure I posted this before, but back when I worked on an ambulance we got called to a shooting. Only I wasn't listening to the radio at all, probably because I got like 2 hours sleep the night before, and we show up at the scene, I ask my partner the apartment number we are going to, grab some gear, and start heading into the building. My partner says, "hold up", and I'm thinking he is just wanting me to wait for him, so I'm like "fuck that" and start walking to the building, when a bunch of cops run past me with guns drawn into the building. Had there been a camera on me at the time, we could debate whether I had some hero complex to get close to position to help asap, or was just smartly approaching the building in a safe manner to render aid as soon as the cops cleared the building, but in reality I didn't have a clue what was going on and was just trying to get through a day after staying out till 3 the night before.

The point being, I tend to give the cops some benefit of the doubt in these situations. They don't get paid much, probably don't give much of a shit about the day to day grind, probably aren't too smart to begin with, and maybe are distracted by a fight with the missus, the kids fucking up in school, a hangover, or something else. They get called to check out a nutty dude with a knife. Just another chore in the day. Then the nutty dude starts to approach them--suddenly it isn't just more bullshit, they are in real danger. They had to make a quick decision, and the existence of an alternative may not have occurred to them at that moment.

Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 10:35:33 am
And you wonder why you are so easy to peg?

Did you watch the video?

The police could have moved down the sidewalk. They could have moved to each side of the victim. The officer on the side of the car he approached could have simply moved around the car.


Now, the guy could have forced them into it anyway of course, and given his actions, it is even likely he would have - but we will never know, because the police officers in question clearly, to me, decided that they *could* blow him away, so they did.

The guy was clearly not an imminent threat to anyone. He didn't run at them, he didn't even raise the knife.

What is scary about this video is that the police claim it exonerates them, while sane people who watch it think "That guy didn't need to be shot".

I suspect you especially approved of the two rounds they put into him while he was lying on the ground?

Yes, I did watch the video, and no I'm not into pegging.

I was really just giving grumbler shit with that post (save your breathe, lol).  But anyway the knife guy was an imminent threat.  You don't have to be in some special knife-fighting position to quickly stab someone.

I guess you can put these few seconds under a microscope and postulate on how the incident could have been handled without the guy getting shot.  But it sure seems like the knife guy wanted to be shot and was willing to threaten the cops in order to make that happen.  And I'm guessing from the cop's perspective he wanted to be able to go home & see his kids that evening.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 10:39:02 am
Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

And I think you're trying to put too fine a point on it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:01:35 am
I suspect that what spicey and the "shoot first" types don't like about the idea of backing away is that it strikes them as "backing down" - ie, see their equating moveing back with "running away".

And I don't doubt that the same "we don't have to back down" mentality is at play in some of these shootings. It is a cousin to the gun nut "stand your ground" attitude that makes shooting someone something you have the *right* to do as long as you make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed (at least in a strict legal sense), rather than a very regrettable last option in defense of your's or someone else's life.

I don't like backing up because it prevents them from doing their job. 

Not at all. Maneuvering does not at all prevent them from doing their job, unless their job is to shoot him as quickly as possible.

Quote
Their job was to stop a knife wielding maniac.

Their job is to deal with the situation with as little risk to everyone involved as possible. This person had not attacked anyone, and did not appear to be about to do so. It's not like they showed up to scene with someone already bleeding on the ground.
Quote

 The guys actions were unpredictable and he was a danger to both officers and the public.

You don't have to predict his actions, you have to respond to them. And his actions that they responded to was him walking towards them at a walking speed with his knife held at his side.

Quote

  The guy with the knife came at the officers very quickly.

No, he just walked towards them, he didn't run.

Quote
He didn't appear to be very far away at all when he was shot. 

That is because the officers "stood their ground". If they had simply backed away from him while keeping him covered, he would not be that close to them. Now, maybe that just means he forces the issue by actually moving quickly instead of slowly.

Quote

Lets say the officers back up and one trips and the knife guy runs up and stabs him? 

Then we have a stabbed officer and a dead suspect. What is your point?

We can imagine any theoretical scenario where any action taken could have a bad outcome.

Let's say the officers do what they do and kill someone. Isn't that a bad outcome as well, what with someone being dead and all?

[/quote]

What if he suddenly turns around and goes for a bystander?
[/quote]

What if they hit a bystander when they shoot him?

There was no bystander particularly near him, and he didn't attack any bystanders before the cops arrived, so yeah, it is possible he could go after one, there wasn't an imminent threat of him doing so.

Quote
What if he he moves between the two officers so if they discharge their weapons they'd be doing it at each other.

Then the officers would need more training to not allow that to happen.

Quote

In this case the priorities should be to protect the public, the officers themselves and the guy with the knife in that order.

Agreed

Quote
Backing away does not serve that purpose.

It certainly does - unless you just throw away the last concern altogether.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:05:58 am
And you wonder why you are so easy to peg?

Did you watch the video?

The police could have moved down the sidewalk. They could have moved to each side of the victim. The officer on the side of the car he approached could have simply moved around the car.


Now, the guy could have forced them into it anyway of course, and given his actions, it is even likely he would have - but we will never know, because the police officers in question clearly, to me, decided that they *could* blow him away, so they did.

The guy was clearly not an imminent threat to anyone. He didn't run at them, he didn't even raise the knife.

What is scary about this video is that the police claim it exonerates them, while sane people who watch it think "That guy didn't need to be shot".

I suspect you especially approved of the two rounds they put into him while he was lying on the ground?

Yes, I did watch the video, and no I'm not into pegging.

I was really just giving grumbler shit with that post (save your breathe, lol).  But anyway the knife guy was an imminent threat.  You don't have to be in some special knife-fighting position to quickly stab someone.

I guess you can put these few seconds under a microscope and postulate on how the incident could have been handled without the guy getting shot.  But it sure seems like the knife guy wanted to be shot and was willing to threaten the cops in order to make that happen.  And I'm guessing from the cop's perspective he wanted to be able to go home & see his kids that evening.

That is a fair point - although if your over-riding concern is to go home and see your kids in the evening, such that you feel that making sure someone else will NOT go home and see his kids that evening takes precedence over you taking even a slight risk of that happening, you should find another line of work.

"Officer safety" is like "If it saves just one child...". An emotional rhetorical argument that means almost nothing. It can be used to justify nearly any action taken.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:12:56 am

Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

If there was a video of a cop taking a step back from a knife wielding nutcase without negative consequence, I doubt anyone would be criticizing.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that most people are pointing out problems with alternative courses of action not to say that none could be taken, but that they weren't without drawbacks.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:18:16 am

Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

If there was a video of a cop taking a step back from a knife wielding nutcase without negative consequence, I doubt anyone would be criticizing.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that most people are pointing out problems with alternative courses of action not to say that none could be taken, but that they weren't without drawbacks.

Well yeah, of course there are drawbacks to ANY course of action. That goes without saying though.

What I find surprising is that to me, there is a HUGE drawback to the actual course of action taken - someone is DEAD.

That seems to be just dismissed as a relatively minor negative outcome, such that "Oh no, if the cop moves away, he might trip!" actually becomes a *worse* outcome than someone being killed???

That is kind of amazing to me, and again, goes back to the fundamental idea among many that shooting someone is a first or second option, rather than a last...as long as, you know, you can justify it in the narrowest sense of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:24:42 am
Well yeah, of course there are drawbacks to ANY course of action. That goes without saying though.

What I find surprising is that to me, there is a HUGE drawback to the actual course of action taken - someone is DEAD.

That seems to be just dismissed as a relatively minor negative outcome, such that "Oh no, if the cop moves away, he might trip!" actually becomes a *worse* outcome than someone being killed???

That is kind of amazing to me, and again, goes back to the fundamental idea among many that shooting someone is a first or second option, rather than a last...as long as, you know, you can justify it in the narrowest sense of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU

Tripping is a bit of a bigger deal when you have a knife wielding madman coming at you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:35:52 am
Well yeah, of course there are drawbacks to ANY course of action. That goes without saying though.

What I find surprising is that to me, there is a HUGE drawback to the actual course of action taken - someone is DEAD.

That seems to be just dismissed as a relatively minor negative outcome, such that "Oh no, if the cop moves away, he might trip!" actually becomes a *worse* outcome than someone being killed???

That is kind of amazing to me, and again, goes back to the fundamental idea among many that shooting someone is a first or second option, rather than a last...as long as, you know, you can justify it in the narrowest sense of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU

Tripping is a bit of a bigger deal when you have a knife wielding madman coming at you.

If the major issue with any potential course of action that doesn't involve just shooting is the fear that you may no be able to walk without falling down, again, you might consider another line of work.

It is comical that the primary reason the cops had to shoot that man 9 times, including twice after he was already on the ground, was their fear that they would not be able to move from the spot they were in without falling down.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:41:15 am
If the major issue with any potential course of action that doesn't involve just shooting is the fear that you may no be able to walk without falling down, again, you might consider another line of work.


The don't have eyes in the back of their heads. They have to stay focused on the guy with the knife, and stay in a position to quickly fire.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 12:03:39 pm
If the major issue with any potential course of action that doesn't involve just shooting is the fear that you may no be able to walk without falling down, again, you might consider another line of work.


The don't have eyes in the back of their heads. They have to stay focused on the guy with the knife, and stay in a position to quickly fire.


..which they can do while maneuvering to maintain separation from someone walking towards them...

You know, unless they forgot to tie their shoes, and trip.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 29, 2014, 12:18:31 pm
I'm glad when police cordoned off the scene and people backed up nobody was hurt due to a serious backwards walking accident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 29, 2014, 12:22:21 pm
I never managed to fall backwards while maintaining a safe distance from anybody.  But maybe I was just lucky, being left-handed and all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 12:49:27 pm
I'm glad when police cordoned off the scene and people backed up nobody was hurt due to a serious backwards walking accident.

You ask someone to balance across a 2 foot wide walkway a foot above the ground and she has no problem at all. You raise that walkway 100 feet in the air and ask her to do it, and she won't try and think you are a madman for asking.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 29, 2014, 01:05:05 pm
Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

And I think you're trying to put too fine a point on it.

Someone working for a government agency shot and killed a citizen.  I am not sure that it's possible for that point to be too fine.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 01:29:23 pm
Someone working for a government agency shot and killed a citizen.  I am not sure that it's possible for that point to be too fine.

When it's a crazy person coming at them with a knife, I think it is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 29, 2014, 03:29:52 pm
I'm not going to respond in in-depth to Berkut (in no small part because of the screwy quotes), but he and I have a different idea what the cops are supposed to be doing.  It would seem for him the optimal situation is if the cops didn't arrive at all, since that would do the most to protect people from being shot by cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2014, 06:26:16 pm
I never managed to fall backwards while maintaining a safe distance from anybody.  But maybe I was just lucky, being left-handed and all.

That's cause you all (lefties) are backwards anyway.



































and you write funny too.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 31, 2014, 02:11:19 pm
Quote
Policeman resigns after pointing rifle at Ferguson protesters
Officer was suspended after cellphone video caught him threatening civilians protesting shooting death of Michael Brown


August 29, 2014 5:45PM ET

A police officer resigned after he was suspended for pointing his semi-automatic rifle and threatening protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, amid demonstrations that broke out after the shooting death of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, police said.

Lt. Ray Albers resigned Thursday, St. Ann Police Chief Aaron Jimenez said. Albers had been shown on cellphone video pointing his rifle at demonstrators and threatening them on Aug. 19 in Ferguson.

In the video, a man is heard saying, "Oh my God! Gun raised!" as the officer approaches. The officer walks near the man, gun pointed, and appears to threaten to kill him. A St. Louis County police sergeant forced the officer to lower the weapon and escorted him away.

A message left on Albers' home phone was not immediately returned.

The fatal shooting of Brown – an unarmed African-American teenager – by a white police officer ignited days of protests. Local police in riot gear fired tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters who refused to disperse and, at times, vandalized nearby stores.

After widespread criticism of the local police response, Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon placed the State Highway Patrol in charge of securing Ferguson with a more relaxed approach. Nixon later called in the National Guard and imposed a curfew that was lifted after several nights of clashes between police and protesters.

The Associated Press
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 31, 2014, 04:10:46 pm
It is comical that the primary reason the cops had to shoot that man 9 times, including twice after he was already on the ground, was their fear that they would not be able to move from the spot they were in without falling down.

If you are standing and up against a man with seven bullets in him lying bleeding on the ground, you are at an immediate disadvantage.  Justifiable self-defense.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2014, 04:18:48 pm
It is comical that the primary reason the cops had to shoot that man 9 times, including twice after he was already on the ground, was their fear that they would not be able to move from the spot they were in without falling down.

If you are standing and up against a man with seven bullets in him lying bleeding on the ground, you are at an immediate disadvantage.  Justifiable self-defense.
if he was mad before you sot him 7 times, imagine how mad he was after. better take no chances.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 31, 2014, 04:21:20 pm
You know you have issues when you have to disband the entire PD and start over from scratch, like a Jiffy Lube under new management.

Quote
FERGUSON, Mo. — The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.

That was three years ago. One of the officers who worked in that department, and lost his job along with everyone else, was a young man named Darren Wilson.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 31, 2014, 08:31:21 pm
Quote
At least 5 Ferguson officers apart from Brown shooter have been named in lawsuits
WashingtonPost


Federal investigators are focused on one Ferguson, Mo., police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black teenager, but at least five other police officers and one former officer in the town’s 53-member department have been named in civil rights lawsuits alleging the use of excessive force.

In four federal lawsuits, including one that is on appeal, and more than a half-dozen investigations over the past decade, colleagues of Darren Wilson’s have separately contested a variety of allegations, including killing a mentally ill man with a Taser, pistol-whipping a child, choking and hog-tying a child and beating a man who was later charged with destroying city property because his blood spilled on officers’ clothes.

One officer has faced three internal affairs probes and two lawsuits over claims he violated civil rights and used excessive force while working at a previous police department in the mid-2000s. That department demoted him after finding credible evidence to support one of the complaints, and he subsequently was hired by the Ferguson force.

Police officials from outside Ferguson and plaintiffs’ lawyers say the nature of such cases suggests there is a systemic problem within the Ferguson police force. Department of Justice officials said they are considering a broader probe into whether there is a pattern of using excessive force that routinely violates people’s civil rights.

Counting Wilson, whose shooting of Michael Brown on Aug. 9 set off a firestorm of protests and a national debate on race and policing, about 13 percent of Ferguson’s officers have faced ­excessive-force investigations. Comparable national data on excessive force probes is not available. But the National Police Misconduct Statistics and Reporting Project, funded by the libertarian Cato Institute, estimated on the basis of 2010 data that about 1 percent of U.S. police officers — 9.8 out of every 1,000 — will be cited for or charged with misconduct. Half of those cases involve excessive force.

The Ferguson Police Department and city officials declined to comment on the cases.

In all but one of the cases, the victims were black. Among the officers involved in the cases, one is African American.

Ferguson has plenty of company when it comes to federal scrutiny of police departments.

Under Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., the Justice Department has initiated twice as many reviews of police departments for possible constitutional violations as the next most prolific of his predecessors. At least 34 other departments are under investigation for alleged civil rights violations.

But Clarence Harmon, a former St. Louis mayor and city police chief, said the number and types of allegations in Ferguson set the city’s department apart.

“The cases themselves are fairly extraordinary — so is the volume,” said Harmon, who in 1997 became the second black mayor of the city. “It’s prima facie evidence of discriminatory practices. I would be surprised if Justice didn’t make a recommendation that they be placed under scrutiny.”

James O. Pasco Jr., national executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, cautions that police officers are constantly accused of using excessive force and that those accusations are just “one side of the story” and do not tell exactly what happened. In 90 percent of cases in which a department has a systemic problem, the issue is with poor management, not the individual officers, he said.

“To suggest that police officers are a marauding, white occupying army out there to deprive minorities of their civil rights is at variance with common sense,” Pasco said. “You can’t have rogue officers in a well-managed police department.”

The five officers and one former officer have faced complaints of excessive force in five civil rights lawsuits; one of the suits was resolved with the officer not being held liable and the department paying a settlement, and four are pending, one on appeal. Two of the officers faced these complaints during their time at other police departments.

One officer allegedly used excessive force in two incidents, both while at the Ferguson Police Department.


Samuel Bagenstos, a former Justice Department attorney who helped oversee the civil rights division for the Obama administration from 2009 to 2011, said a federal probe into potentially systemic problems within a police force would consider hiring practices as one of several factors.

“They would look at whether they are properly screening people that they are considering to hire,” said Bagenstos, now a professor of law at the University of Michigan.

The most recent civil rights lawsuit naming Ferguson police officers was filed days after Brown was shot and involves a September 2011 incident.

According to the lawsuit, officers encountered a dazed-looking man walking from behind a building in a residential area. Officer Brian Kaminski ordered 31-year-old Jason Moore to put his hands up and walk toward him, according to the suit, which then alleges that Kaminski fired his Taser prongs into Moore’s chest and legs.

A second officer, Michael White, arrived and physically held Moore while Kaminski repeatedly Tasered him with electric currents, the lawsuit said.

Both officers are white. Moore was black.

Moore, who had a mental disorder, suffered a heart attack on the scene and died. His wife, Tina Moore, filed the lawsuit, saying her husband’s death was another example of Ferguson police using excessive force.

“There was no need for the officers’ excessive use of force in continuing to Taser Jason Moore in order to preserve the peace, maintain order or to overcome any resistance to authority by Jason Moore,” says the suit, which names Ferguson Mayor James Knowles and Chief Thomas Jackson.

“Rather than applying the appropriate level of force required to restrain Jason Moore, Officer Kaminski, with the assistance of Officer White, instead Tasered Jason Moore until he became unresponsive and died,” the suit continues.

Tina Moore’s attorney, Mark Floyd, declined to comment on the case. Peter Dunne, an attorney recently assigned to represent the officers, also declined to comment, saying he has yet to review the case since it was just filed.

Dunne is also representing White in a case that involves one other current Ferguson officer and a former officer who has since been elected to the Ferguson City Council. A 54-year-old welder, Henry Davis, was injured in an altercation with the three officers. Officers say it happened because Davis became combative, which Davis denies. The officers charged Davis with destruction of property when his blood stained their uniforms. Davis is black. The officers are white.

The other two officers — John Beaird and Kim Tihen, who is now on the City Council — testified that Davis initiated the fight. Davis testified that he asked for a mat to sleep on in the jail cell, a request he said was denied. When he protested, he said, the officers started to hit him, then handcuffed him. White, Davis said, kicked him in the head. Medical records show he suffered a concussion.

The judge said that Davis, who was arrested for allegedly driving under the influence and other violations, suffered injuries but that they were “de minimis” — too minor to warrant a finding of excessive force, records show. The case is being appealed.

Davis’s attorney, James W. Schottel Jr., said he believes his client will ultimately prevail because he is introducing new evidence to show that his client’s concussion is a serious injury.

Dunne disagreed about the merits of Davis’s case: “What I would say is, he got turned down at every point. . . . Not a single thing he sued for [was] allowed to go forward to the jury.”

Dunne also represents the Ferguson officer who faced at least five complaints of excessive force when he worked at the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department.

Eddie Boyd III arrived in Ferguson four years ago after three internal affairs investigations into complaints — in 2004, 2005 and 2006 — that he assaulted and injured children without cause.

Boyd and the children are African American. In at least two cases, the children said Boyd pistol-whipped them. In the 2006 case, the department “sustained” the allegations, concluding that Boyd had used unnecessary force when he struck 12-year-old Jerica Thornton with his pistol, records show.

Boyd was suspended and demoted to the rank of a probationary police officer. But the next year, Christopher Dixon, a high school freshman, said Boyd tackled him as he fled an after-school fight and hit him in the face with the butt of his pistol. Boyd said he accidentally hit Dixon’s face with his handcuffs when Dixon resisted arrest, records show.

Boyd resigned from the St. Louis force shortly after this incident, saying in a deposition he wanted to avoid the “red tape” of what would have been his fourth internal affairs probe. Boyd was not held liable in the Dixon suit. His police department settled out of court, paying the teenager $35,000, according to Dixon’s attorney, Matthew Devoti.

Another lawsuit filed against Boyd alleging he assaulted a suspect is pending.

“I think it’s incorrect and misleading to say that he is a guy with a record when he denied that he acted improperly in all of these cases,” Dunne said. “In two of these [internal affairs] cases, they were found to not have any merit at all.”

Another Ferguson officer faced a complaint on a previous job.

Justin Cosma was one of two Jefferson County sheriff’s deputies who in June 2010 came upon a shirtless 12-year-old boy who was checking the family mailbox. The deputies asked him what he was doing, knocked him down, and hogtied him, and the boy was choked and beaten, the lawsuit claims. The officers and the boy are white.

When asked about the accusations, Cosma’s attorney, Jason Retter, said he does not comment on pending cases.

Cosma was one of the officers who arrested reporters, including a Washington Post journalist, covering the protests in Ferguson over the killing of Michael Brown.

In the Jefferson County incident, Cosma filed a report that the 12-year-old assaulted him and his partner and was “resisting/
interfering with arrest, detention or stop.” The local prosecutor refused to bring charges against the juvenile.

“They were talking to him and the next thing that happens is they are restraining him,” said the attorney for the boy’s family, Richard Lozano. “Because he was shirtless, he was grabbed around the neck. He had choke marks. They tied his hands and feet behind his back, and hogtied him — all on his property, all while his mother was inside the house.”
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 31, 2014, 08:53:57 pm
That's a lot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 31, 2014, 11:59:00 pm
Yet all those folks who brought assault rifles to Target weren't bothered. I wonder why?  :hmm:

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2014/8/26/172728/694
Quote
Video of Black Man's Death Raises Questions

by Steven D
Tue Aug 26th, 2014 at 05:50:56 PM EST
John Crawford was the unfortunate black man holding a BB gun in the toy section of a Walmart Store in Beavercreek, OH, when police, in response to several 911 calls, shot and killed him on August 5, 2014.

Police have maintained that Crawford was waving the BB gun around in a threatening manner when they arrived and refused their commands to drop the "weapon" (even though Ohio is an "open carry" state), thus requiring his execution style death by cop.

However, Ohio Attorney General Mike Dewine, who assigned the case investigating the police homicide of Mr. Crawford to a special prosecutor, recently allowed family members and their attorneys to view the surveillance tape from the store that shows the moments up to and including John Crawford's shooting death by police. After viewing that tape, the family's attorneys and Crawford's father dispute the police account of this incident in no uncertain terms:

   
Quote
Attorney Michael Wright said: "We need Mike DeWine to refer this case to the Department of Justice. Not to a special prosecutor."

    Wright said Crawford did nothing wrong in Walmart. "Nothing more, nothing less than shopping."

    Wright, who has seen store surveillance video of the shooting incident, said Crawford was shot while talking on the phone, holding the butt of the gun with the barrel pointed at the floor.

    He said Crawford was "shot on sight" in a "militaristic" response.

This is extremely troubling news. Much like the case of Michael Brown, the family has been complaining that leaks about the investigation have benefited the police shooters and denigrated John Crawford's character.
Quote
    “Everything released is one-sided. There is nothing favorable to John Crawford. You can’t show different pieces, show it all, don’t trickle pieces to gain favor of the public, “said Michael Wright, Crawford family attorney. Wright wants to see the release of events in chronological order.

    Wright says the video shows Crawford standing in the direction of some shelves. He say Crawford was talking on his cell phone and probably did not see or hear the police officer sent to the store to investigate. He said in one frame you see Crawford on the phone, the next you see him on the floor.

    Crawford’s father questions the timing of the state’s investigation.

    “My main concern is the delay. What’s taking so long? I understand it’s a process, but frankly, I see stall tactics,” said John Crawford II [the decedent's father].

According to the family and its lawyers, the video supports their claim that John Crawford was on his cell phone talking to his girlfriend and doing nothing else when the police entered the store and shot him down for the crime of being Black and holding a toy gun in a Walmart.
Quote
    Crawford was speaking by cell phone to his girlfriend, who was with his parents, when he was shot.

    “He said he was at the video games playing videos, and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were,” said LeeCee Johnson, the mother of his two children. “The next thing I know, he said, ‘It’s not real,’ and the police start shooting, and they said ‘Get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him.”

    Johnson put the phone on speaker mode, and she and Crawford’s parents heard him die.

    “I could hear him just crying and screaming,” Johnson said. “I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human.”
The Grand Jury is set to begin hearing evidence regarding the Crawford shooting on September 22, 2014, assuming no further delays. Meanwhile, one of the police officers who shot Crawford is already back on the job, while the other one remains on administrative leave with pay. It should be remembered that Mr. Crawford was not the only victim of this "incident." Another shopper, 37 year old Angela Williams "collapsed and died as she scrambled to get away after police fired at Crawford." All because of the claims made by 911 callers such as this one:
Quote
    In one of those calls, which was released by police, a Wal-Mart shopper told emergency dispatchers that it looked like the man — later identified as Crawford — was trying to load the rifle and that he had pointed it at two children, WHIO reported.

    The 911 caller’s wife said that Crawford was on the phone and that he was messing with the gun. She said that after police ordered Crawford to put down the unidentified weapon, “I heard two shots after I saw him turn. He still had the weapon in his hand.”

Considering the content of the video, and the fact that Crawford was a father of two children with his girlfriend (with the couple expecting a third child), I find that story a little hard to swallow. Sounds like panic by white shoppers and an unwarranted response by the police who shot a harmless man while he was talking on his phone. All because he was a scary black man. But what do I know.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on September 01, 2014, 02:06:55 pm
Fuck John Crawford. He caused a panic and a woman dropped dead.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on September 01, 2014, 04:01:19 pm
Fuck John Crawford. He caused a panic and a woman dropped dead.

Exactly.  By forcing the police to shoot him,* he directly caused the death of a 37-year-old woman who died of a heart attack when she heard the gunshots.

I also don't know how he couldn't have expected to die when he threatened the police, after being shot, by saying "it's not real."  Suicide by cop?


* They really didn't have a choice; he was facing away from them, and using the gun as a cane while he talked on the phone.  Clearly, a man facing away from police and talking on a phone is about to murder them.  And not killing him on the spot, or even telling him to turn around, would obviously be "running away."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on September 01, 2014, 05:05:29 pm
I knew they would be trouble when they put that RTA bus stop at Fairfield Commons.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 09:56:33 am
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

Apparently it is possible to deal with someone acting irrationally and armed without just blowing him away 20 seconds into the stop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 10:54:09 am
Oh, Jeffrey...you know damn well a crazy white guy walking around with an assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as an unarmed black teen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 08, 2014, 11:11:45 am
I'm glad that they didn't kill that guy but man...that sure underlines the treatment of whites vs. blacks.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:15:05 am
Yeah, it does.  But we knew that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:17:38 am
What I thought was interesting (and encouraging) about that article was that the cops were actually discussing the legal and constitutional implications of their options.

Mostly it seems like cops are not aware of those implications, or if they are, it is strictly from the standpoint of "Have we done the minimum so we can pretend like we met them?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:20:09 am
Oh, Jeffrey...you know damn well a crazy white guy walking around with an assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as an unarmed black teen.

Was the white guy harming anyone?  I think they were a bit lenient on him but he kept his distance from people and didn't seem to really be much of a threat.  A bit different from punching a cop inside his car and going for his gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on September 08, 2014, 11:21:22 am
Oh, Jeffrey...you know damn well a crazy white guy walking around with an assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as an unarmed black teen.

Was the white guy harming anyone?  I think they were a bit lenient on him but he kept his distance from people and didn't seem to really be much of a threat.  A bit different from punching a cop inside his car and going for his gun.

Is that what all those dead black guys were doing?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:25:26 am
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:30:09 am
Is that what all those dead black guys were doing?

Oh, I thought this one Michigan case was being compared against the Missouri one this thread was started for. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:31:13 am
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 08, 2014, 11:34:13 am
Is that what all those dead black guys were doing?

Oh, I thought this one Michigan case was being compared against the Missouri one this thread was started for. 

There have been a lot more fatal shootings of black people since then*, many of which have been discussed in this thread.

*really before then too.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:37:29 am
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.

As I am not afraid of black people, I never felt compelled to shoot any of them.  Creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:42:53 am
I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:51:57 am
I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

Okay, that's fair then.  But knife guy was brandishing the knife and crazy old coot was not brandishing his rifle as far as I could tell.

That said, I'm surprised crazy old coot didn't get charged with something and even got his rifle back the next day.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:58:17 am
I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

Okay, that's fair then.  But knife guy was brandishing the knife and crazy old coot was not brandishing his rifle as far as I could tell.

That said, I'm surprised crazy old coot didn't get charged with something and even got his rifle back the next day.

Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 12:02:55 pm
lol, walking down the street with an assault rifle isn't "brandishing".  Funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:09:36 pm
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account

Quote
[...]

The couple separated inside the store. Crawford began a conversation on his mobile phone with LeeCee Johnson, the mother of his two sons. Walking in the sporting goods section, he approached a shelf and picked up a MK-177 BB/pellet air rifle, which was already unboxed.

“He never put the phone down,” said his father. “He just kind of picked the rifle up and carried it, was walking around with it.”

From this point, the Crawford team’s description of what is shown in the surveillance footage differs radically from Ritchie’s recollection, which he insisted was also backed up by the recordings from the Walmart cameras.

Crawford’s father and attorneys said that the footage showed the 22-year-old walking from one aisle to the next with the BB rifle at his side and in his left hand, pointed at the floor except for one notable movement.

“I would think that the rifle maybe got heavy to him,” said his father. “He kind of swung it like you carry it on your shoulder, then he immediately put it back down.”

“You can clearly see people walk past him, and they didn’t think anything about it. Everybody was just kind of minding their own business,” his father added. “He wasn’t acting in any type of way that he would have been considered menacing, if you will.”

Ritchie, however, says Crawford was “waving the weapon around”, causing the muzzle to move in the direction of passersby, including him and his wife, April. “And even still, it’s a gun in Walmart, in a public place, inducing panic,” said Ritchie.

The Crawford family’s attorneys contend that Ohio’s “open-carry” law means that he could have been legally holding the rifle in the store even if it had been a full-powered firearm. “We never saw him waving this rifle in front of kids or people,” said his father.

Crawford arrived at the pet products section in the next aisle, estimated at 60 yards from where he had picked up the item. Then, his family and their attorneys say, at about 8.20pm, he stopped and stood still for about six minutes. “With the rifle pointed down and the cell phone up in his right hand,” said his father, he stayed there facing a shelf, apparently preoccupied by the call.

“He didn’t move,” said his father. “He was stood so still, in fact, we thought the track had actually stopped. I asked the technician ‘what’s going on?’ and he said ‘Well, the reel is still running Mr Crawford, look at the time’.”

Ritchie, on the other hand, stated that at this stage, Crawford was “pointing [the BB rifle] at things, like moving things around the shelf with the gun.”

At about 8.26pm, armed police officers responding to Ritchie’s 911 call five minutes earlier come into view on the footage, according to those who viewed it. Within seconds, Crawford was shot twice and pounced on. He was taken to hospital but died from his wounds. The Crawfords’ attorneys say only Ritchie called 911 before the shooting.

Police and Ritchie say an officer to Crawford’s left twice shouted “put it down”. “Responding officers confronted the suspect inside the store area and the subject was shot after failing to comply with officers’ verbal commands,” a Beavercreek police spokesman said in a statement.

Ritchie says Crawford turned towards the officer after hearing the instruction, and then moved to run to his right, causing the BB rifle’s muzzle to swing in the officer’s direction moments before the officer fired.

“Then he got back up and tried to either go for the rifle or go for one of the officers,” Ritchie said of Crawford. “But the officer had him on the ground before he got to either target.”

Yet the Crawford team dismiss almost all of this. By the time the officer advanced from his left, according to Wright, Crawford was “turned 30 degrees to the right,” standing “almost in a catty-corner position, facing in an opposite direction to the direction they were coming”.

He did not seem to hear the police orders, said Wright. “Based on the video that we saw, it did not even appear that he knew they were there,” he said. “He doesn’t look at the officers, he doesn’t turn his body towards the officers. It’s as if he was just shot on sight by the officers.”

Johnson, the mother of Crawford’s children, who remained on the phone line to him throughout, has told reporters that she heard him say “It’s not real”, adding: “they said ‘get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him”. Wright said they were trying to reconcile this with the footage.

Crawford’s father and Wright insist that the footage also did not show the 22-year-old trying to flee, nor trying to get back up to reach the weapon, which, they stress, he would have known was an unloaded BB rifle with no potential use. His only movement, they said, was a few steps to the right and to the ground upon being shot.

The Crawfords’ attorneys said they had been informed by Dr Robert Shott, deputy coroner of Montgomery County, that the 22-year-old was “shot in the back of the left arm, above the elbow, and on the left side of his torso, to the left of his belly button”. Shott did not respond to a message requesting comment. Ritchie, however, said the first shot entered Crawford’s arm from the front after he turned to the officer.

Within a few minutes, fellow shopper Angela Williams, a 37-year-old nursing home worker reported to have suffered from a heart condition, was in cardiac arrest after collapsing trying to flee the melee. She died later that evening in hospital.

Crawford’s attorneys said Williams and two of her young children had been in the same aisle as Crawford in the moments before the shooting. “She was completely indifferent as to him being there,” said Wright. “She wasn’t startled, she wasn’t alarmed or anything like that.”

Ritchie said that it was his own heart condition that saw him discharged from the US marines after joining in September 2008. He insisted that he had disclosed the condition when signing up. However, he claimed, “my recruiter never turned that paperwork in, so they considered me a fraudulent enlistment” when officers later discovered the condition.

[...]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 12:18:08 pm
But see, Syt, 2nd Amendment open carry rights are not conveyed to a BB rifle.


Quote
Within a few minutes, fellow shopper Angela Williams, a 37-year-old nursing home worker reported to have suffered from a heart condition, was in cardiac arrest after collapsing trying to flee the melee. She died later that evening in hospital.

Nice.  Two wrongful death suits.  Way to go, Officer Friendly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 12:21:22 pm
I like the claim that he was "trying to go for the weapon" after they shot him.

It makes such good sense to make such a claim when you are the shooting officer trying to justify your shooting...but sounds pretty ridiculous once you find out it was a unloaded BB gun.

I've been shot! Must...reach....bb...gun....
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:23:56 pm
I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

I'm sure the Corps appreciates people going around making boasts if they barely made it through basic.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 12:31:38 pm
Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

He didn't have the knife raised, but he was still brandishing it.  It was certainly reported as brandishing in the news stories I read.

Quote
If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

Knife guy was acting very aggressive, walking directly towards the police.  You do realize a knife wielder can stab someone with an upward motion, don't you?  Crazy old coot had his rifle pointing upwards at all times and never did anything to threaten the cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 12:40:03 pm
I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

Is this the same guy who said Crawford was randomly aiming the rifle at kids and other people in the store?  If his claims were exaggerated, he bears a lot of responsibility for Crawford being shot. 

At the same time, I don't understand how Crawford could have been so absorbed in his phone conversation that he didn't notice the cops there.  One thing cops always seem to do well is make their presence known.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:47:19 pm
I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

Is this the same guy who said Crawford was randomly aiming the rifle at kids and other people in the store?  If his claims were exaggerated, he bears a lot of responsibility for Crawford being shot. 

Yeah, he's the one who called the cops. He had to backpedal already about his claims that he aimed at customers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 12:50:05 pm
Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

He didn't have the knife raised, but he was still brandishing it.  It was certainly reported as brandishing in the news stories I read.

Watch the video.

How do you "brandish" a knife without raising it?

Quote

Quote
If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

Knife guy was acting very aggressive, walking directly towards the police.

That is not acting "very aggressive" that is walking towards someone. He didn't run at them, he never go close enough to actually attack them. He was never even remotely near a point where he could have injured or killed them as quickly as someone with an rifle could from whatever range rifle guy was at from the police and bystanders.

Quote
  You do realize a knife wielder can stab someone with an upward motion, don't you?

Only if they are within arms reach.

You do realize that someone with a gun can shoot someone simply by dropping the rifle and pulling the trigger, right?
Quote
Crazy old coot had his rifle pointing upwards at all times and never did anything to threaten the cop.

Which was a good reason for them not to go all "Hey, he has a gun, he is acting kind of weird, why, I think this means I get to shoot him!"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on September 08, 2014, 12:54:32 pm
Actually raising the knife is an ineffective way to use it as weapon.  You want to stab at the gut, not come down on the skull or rib cage.  You hold a knife low and stab under the rib at an angle to try to hit the heart.  Or at least that's what they said in my psycho murderer class I took.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 14, 2014, 08:58:58 am
Posting this from buzzfeed as every other source starts with claim that police thought she was a prostitute which looks like might just be angry claim from her husband (whom buzzfeed calls her partner?).

My take on any of these stories of black people be detained or arrested is that I will always produce ID even if it isn't required by law. Of course, that means I'll have to remember to always have ID on me. -_-

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/the-lapd-handcuffed-and-detain-a-django-unchained-actress#39jqgut

Quote
The LAPD Allegedly Handcuffed And Detained A “Django Unchained” Actress

Daniele Watts was handcuffed and put in the back of a squad car after she and her partner Brian Lucas were caught kissing in a car Thursday. The interracial couple said police kept asking if they actually knew each other.

Watts — best known for her role in the Quentin Tarantino’s Django Unchained — told BuzzFeed News the incident happened Sept. 11. She had just dropped off a friend at a diversity showcase when she met up with Lucas, who was in a parked car near CBS’s Studio City production facility. Then the couple started kissing.

“I sat on his lap in the front seat of the car and we start making out,” Watts said.

Soon thereafter, a man from a nearby office came out and asked Watts and Lucas to “stop putting on a show.” Watts stressed to BuzzFeed News that she and Lucas were fully clothed and only kissing, but said they stopped anyway. She got out of the car and eventually called her dad to ask about family.

Police soon arrived and said they had received a call about lewdness.

As the police arrived, Watts was standing on the sidewalk and still on the phone while Lucas was nearby. When the police asked for the couple’s ID’s, Lucas complied but Watts that she wasn’t required to hand her ID over. She told BuzzFeed News she then announced that she was walking away. The police said nothing, she recalled, so she left and walked about a block and a half down the street.

“I didn’t have the stomach for someone on a power trip when I knew I hadn’t done anything wrong,” she explained.

Lucas told BuzzFeed News that as Watts walked away one of the officers “said something like, ‘I wouldn’t leave if I was her.’” However, Lucas also said that no one told Watts not to walk away.

Moments later, a second police car arrived and the officers took Watts into custody.

“So then I’m still talking to my dad,” Watts said, “and a squad car pulls up and shouts at me, ‘put your hands on the wall.” Watts complied, and the police handcuffed her, loaded her in the back of the car and drove her back to the initial scene. Watts said she suffers from panic attacks from past trauma, and she started hyperventilating.

While police were handcuffing Watts, they were also asking Lucas what kind of relationship the couple had.

According to Lucas, the police kept asking, “do you really know her?” He described their questions as being filled with “innuendo.” When asked what that meant, he said the questions seemed to imply that Watts was a prostitute and he was a client. Lucas said the police never explicitly said that was what they thought, but that was how he felt.

Watts and Lucas were eventually released at the scene, but not before the handcuffs cut Watts’ wrist.

Back at the original scene, police had Watts sit on the sidewalk in handcuffs. “It was humiliating,” she said. “It was absolutely humiliating.”

Lucas eventually turned over Watts’ ID, and when police learned her actual identity they released them both, she said. By the time she was free, however, Watts’ wrist had been cut by the handcuffs.

The Los Angeles Police Department does not have a record of the incident.

Saturday, BuzzFeed News spoke with the Los Angeles Police Department, which patrols the Studio City neighborhood where the incident happened. When given the address and approximate time of the incident, police were unable to find any records of it. A spokesperson said that records are produced for arrests, so it wasn’t out of the ordinary that an incident involving only an on-scene detention would lack documentation. However, without documents, the LAPD could not comment on the incident.

Lucas later provided BuzzFeed News with the names of the officers, but the LAPD could not be reached for comment late Friday night.

Now Watts and Lucas are left wondering why they were stopped in the first place.

Watts, who is black, and Lucas, who is white, both said that race was playing on their minds during the incident. Still, Watts said she didn’t want it to boil down to that.

“It wasn’t a black white thing, it was more about something like a hypocrisy,” she said. “And I think these kinds of discussions can help us.”
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on September 14, 2014, 12:37:38 pm


I know Seedy knows what the 21' rule is. However you still need to link that the suspect has Opportunity, Capability, and Intent to employ deadly force. Just because the chap has a knife doesnt mean you automatically shoot him.

Might help explain more of the mind set.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 14, 2014, 12:41:19 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU)  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 14, 2014, 01:00:17 pm

I know Seedy knows what the 21' rule is. However you still need to link that the suspect has Opportunity, Capability, and Intent to employ deadly force. Just because the chap has a knife doesnt mean you automatically shoot him.

It's all context.  We had a guy once with one of those butcher cleaver knives, the big square ones, in a 10' by 10' quiet room.  One way in, one way out.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Rushed him with a shitload of mattresses.   His intent wasn't to carve up some cops, his intent was to harm himself.

As far as I'm concerned, the video that prompted this entire discussion, they didn't have to shoot him.  At that particular moment, at least.

Quote
Might help explain more of the mind set.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx

LOL, PoliceMag.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2011/07/01/maryland-transportation-authority-police-lose-take-home-vehicles.aspx


Worked so fucking hard on that program.   :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on September 14, 2014, 03:14:33 pm
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.

White Knighting?  Really?  Going for sociopathic douchebag shit now?  Of course you cheer on government officials shooting US citizens unnecessarily despite wanting the government to leave people alone.  How you work out those mental gymnastics is beyond me. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 14, 2014, 03:40:05 pm
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.

White Knighting?  Really?  Going for sociopathic douchebag shit now?  Of course you cheer on government officials shooting US citizens unnecessarily despite wanting the government to leave people alone.  How you work out those mental gymnastics is beyond me. 

Pretty easy if you don't think black people are people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on September 27, 2014, 11:19:39 pm
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2014, 11:52:13 pm
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(

What is wrong with you?  In none of the situations we talked about did the person have a gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 11:57:12 pm
Sometimes Raz gets overstimulated and lashes out wildly.  Saw a lot of that at the animal shelter.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on September 28, 2014, 12:17:10 am
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(

What is wrong with you?  In none of the situations we talked about did the person have a gun.

He did have a weapon.  Therefore the police should have backed up.  It's the police's fault what with the militarization and such.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 28, 2014, 04:10:18 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUUO_VFYMs

Guy gets shot because he moves too fast in getting his license. (0:40)

Good news: he survives.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 28, 2014, 08:25:08 am
Sometimes Raz gets overstimulated and lashes out wildly.  Saw a lot of that at the animal shelter.

:D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on September 28, 2014, 10:25:53 am
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(

What is wrong with you?  In none of the situations we talked about did the person have a gun.
After all the years you and he have been here, you have to ask what is wrong with him?

When you engage with him after he says stupid stuff like this, you just encourage him to say more stupid stuff.

One option is to refuse to engage him when he says stupid stuff.  The better option is not to engage him no matter what he says.   :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 10:42:09 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUUO_VFYMs

Guy gets shot because he moves too fast in getting his license. (0:40)

Good news: he survives.

Better news:  cop gets fired and criminally charged. 
Had his bail review last week: $75,000. 
Former Officer of the Year for the South Carolina State Police.  Future convict.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 28, 2014, 10:51:38 am
I hear he pleads not guilty.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:02:33 am
I hear he pleads not guilty.

He can plead all he wants, he's going to go to jail. 

"Why'd you shoot me?"
"You dove headfirst into your car."  Sorry, not a reason to use lethal force, dumbass.

Also, notice how the suspect victim actually apologizes to the officer that shot him, refers to him as "sir", etc.?

Maybe it'll help dispel the derspiessian notion that every black man is some sort of menacing Mandingo copkillin' nigger that needs to be shot  in an encounter with police because he's about to kick off this Nat Turner party and start some murder up in this motherfucker on the way to the convenience store to rape some white women.

But it won't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:28:49 am
It's not a shooting, but here's a clip from my old crew that's been on all the news lately:

http://youtu.be/kP_TtBPpIRM

Greenmount and North, LOL, good times.

Now, as bad as the black officer acts in laying all those haymakers, neither of the two white officers did anything during or after:  Internal Affairs didn't know about this incident until the guy's lawyers forwarded this video to them, and while they began an investigation, they didn't bring it to the Commissioner's attention--until it hit the evening news.

And you'll see one white officer--the one with the black hair--has orange tabs on his epaulettes: they have little sergeant pins on them, and that means he's the OD;  since there was no sergeant on duty in that sector that evening, he was the one in charge that night.  And didn't do a goddamned thing about it.

And yet people still ask me why I quit. Officers like that will get you fired, hurt or worse.  Fuck that. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on September 28, 2014, 11:36:31 am
Why did you quit?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:37:39 am
I was overqualified.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on September 28, 2014, 12:34:26 pm
Your 29 inch waist? :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 12:38:03 pm
Now you're getting nasty. 

Go fuck up a different thread, Leon Trollsky.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 08:24:47 am
https://gma.yahoo.com/unrest-st-louis-police-officer-shoots-kills-man-061859179--abc-news-topstories.html

Quote
Unrest in St. Louis After Police Officer Shoots, Kills Man

The fatal shooting of an 18-year-old black man in south St. Louis by an off-duty police officer sparked a night of unrest in a city still reeling from the August slaying of an unarmed man in nearby Ferguson.

Wednesday's shooting happened at about 7:30 p.m. in the city's Shaw Neighborhood, and involved an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company, Police Chief Sam Dotson said at an early-morning news conference.

The officer approached a group of men. One of the men took off running, Dotson said, so the officer pursued. Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

The officer, who was not injured, returned fire, shooting 17 times and fatally wounding the man, Dotson said.

A gun was recovered at the scene. The officer was placed on administrative leave, as per department policy, police said.

Police have not identified the officer or the man he killed.

The incident comes nearly two months to the day after the police shooting of Michael Brown, 18, in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, located about 20 miles away. Brown's shooting sparked weeks of protests and spawned national discourse about police use of force.

Some of the people protesting recently in Ferguson were seen in St. Louis after Wednesday's shooting, Dotson said.

“Tensions in the region are very high,” Dotson said. “Any police officer use of force certainly will draw attention.”

St. Louis Alderman Antonio French, who documented the turmoil in Ferguson after Brown's Aug. 9 shooting death, reflected on the region's renewed anguish.

"At the scene of yet another young man's death,” he wrote on Twitter. “This happens too often in our city. It's a crisis that we should all be concerned about.”

Activists took to the streets of St. Louis overnight, marching and chanting, seeking answers.

Some police vehicles were damaged during the protests, with windows smashed, Dotson said.

People also shared their frustration on social media, with #shawshooting the most popular national trending topic on Twitter.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 08:54:15 am
HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT (even if I shoot at you first)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 09:04:26 am
https://gma.yahoo.com/unrest-st-louis-police-officer-shoots-kills-man-061859179--abc-news-topstories.html

Quote
Unrest in St. Louis After Police Officer Shoots, Kills Man

The fatal shooting of an 18-year-old black man in south St. Louis by an off-duty police officer sparked a night of unrest in a city still reeling from the August slaying of an unarmed man in nearby Ferguson.

Wednesday's shooting happened at about 7:30 p.m. in the city's Shaw Neighborhood, and involved an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company, Police Chief Sam Dotson said at an early-morning news conference.

The officer approached a group of men. One of the men took off running, Dotson said, so the officer pursued. Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

The officer, who was not injured, returned fire, shooting 17 times and fatally wounding the man, Dotson said.

A gun was recovered at the scene. The officer was placed on administrative leave, as per department policy, police said.

Police have not identified the officer or the man he killed.

The incident comes nearly two months to the day after the police shooting of Michael Brown, 18, in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, located about 20 miles away. Brown's shooting sparked weeks of protests and spawned national discourse about police use of force.

Some of the people protesting recently in Ferguson were seen in St. Louis after Wednesday's shooting, Dotson said.

“Tensions in the region are very high,” Dotson said. “Any police officer use of force certainly will draw attention.”

St. Louis Alderman Antonio French, who documented the turmoil in Ferguson after Brown's Aug. 9 shooting death, reflected on the region's renewed anguish.

"At the scene of yet another young man's death,” he wrote on Twitter. “This happens too often in our city. It's a crisis that we should all be concerned about.”

Activists took to the streets of St. Louis overnight, marching and chanting, seeking answers.

Some police vehicles were damaged during the protests, with windows smashed, Dotson said.

People also shared their frustration on social media, with #shawshooting the most popular national trending topic on Twitter.
Couldn't he just shoot the gun out of his hand?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:06:49 am
The only question I really have is whether or not he needed 17 bullets to make sure the shooter died. Seems wasteful.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 09, 2014, 09:16:09 am
Considering cop pistol accuracy, they needed 17 rounds to get a few hits.

MAH DOUGHNUTS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on October 09, 2014, 09:18:42 am
The only question I really have is whether or not he needed 17 bullets to make sure the shooter died. Seems wasteful.
That's a waste he can probably live with, given the potentially fatal consequences of only using 16 and then having the perp then kill him.  No rentacop ever won the war on crime by dying for his stupidity; he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his stupidity.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:20:23 am
The only question I really have is whether or not he needed 17 bullets to make sure the shooter died. Seems wasteful.

Plenty of room in the budget to cover that.  They burn through way more than that at the range.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on October 09, 2014, 09:27:36 am
HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT (even if I shoot at you first)

God you are loathsome.  Seriously why embrace being a horrible human being to this extent?  What do you get out of it?  Do the deaths of American Citizens fill you with glee for some reason?

Anyway obviously if you shoot at the cops you are going to be shot.  It is a consequence of the unwarranted shootings of Black Men that this justified one is now a touchstone.  This is why you be really careful about training police when to shoot, their legitimacy with the American people is being undermined.

Quote
Couldn't he just shoot the gun out of his hand?

Yuck yuck.  I love seeing the fabric of our society being underminded.  Go to hell.

Seriously I do not get the humor here.  Maybe to you guys dead American Citizens and Cops is funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:37:12 am
God you are loathsome.  Seriously why embrace being a horrible human being to this extent?  What do you get out of it?  Do the deaths of American Citizens fill you with glee for some reason?

There you go again.  I was mocking the street protests that sprang up over this most recent shooting, not the shooting itself.  Had it not been for these silly protests, I wouldn't have bothered to comment.

Quote
Anyway obviously if you shoot at the cops you are going to be shot.  It is a consequence of the unwarranted shootings of Black Men that this justified one is now a touchstone.  This is why you be really careful about training police when to shoot, their legitimacy with the American people is being undermined.

Ah, so you're buying into the "evil white cops are hunting down innocent defenseless black teens" narrative?  Really?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:43:05 am
Ah, so you're buying into the "evil white cops are hunting down innocent defenseless black teens" narrative?  Really?

Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

That reminds me, the one recent bit on SNL I liked involved the white guy speaking about how black people can say all sorts of stuff while white people are rather hemmed in. The black guy (who is just generally awful and should be replaced already) said actually one key thing we can never say is “Thank you, officer, for your help." :D :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on October 09, 2014, 09:49:23 am
Quote
an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company

Cop pay is that bad, huh?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:50:22 am
Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 09, 2014, 09:51:12 am
Quote
an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company

Cop pay is that bad, huh?

Not usually, but cops with extra time on their hands can make some bank working security gigs.  Some departments, like the one in my hometown, actually let them work private details in-uniform, though I believe the department gets a cut of the fee in that case.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 10:03:42 am
Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??

You should leave analogies to Marti, yeah?

But as you know I would say, no I don't think that is the same at all. Gays don't really have a job to serve as protection for citizenry - so you can't really draw and equivalent of the issue of how can people tasked with the job of helping one group be useful if the group they are assigned to help is afraid of them and what they might do to that group.  You might find an easy comparison if you wanted to discuss priests and pedophilia.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:16:32 am
No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 10:18:06 am
No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles

Well I guess we have nothing further to talk about. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:20:39 am
Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 am
Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.


I think you are right.

The problem that police DO have, however is:

1. Some of them are scumbags.
2. They have a rather tough situation to deal with in regards to the statistics around who commits crimes by race - trying to balance that reality with the perception (in the best case) that blacks are unfairly targetted, and the reality that in some cases some police officers who are not "scumbags" probably do fall into the mistake of over-aggressively policing blacks out of proportion to the reality of their greater involvement statstically in crime.
3. The "thin blue line" mentality where the good cops actually protect the bad ones, which makes the good ones look just as bad as the scumbags.
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:36:35 am
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 10:37:47 am
Quote
The officer approached a group of men.

Why?

Quote
One of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

Quote
so the officer pursued.

Why?

Quote
Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 am
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:52:50 am
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

Very little, actually.

In fact, I would guess that the set of officers who are the "good guys" has a higher percentage of ex-military than the set of scumbags.

And I think the militarization culture is actually not at all driven by the actual military. More the civilians cop mentality and the rise of SWAT and "special forces" type policing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:53:56 am
Quote
The officer approached a group of men.

Why?

Quote
One of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

Quote
so the officer pursued.

Why?

Quote
Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.

Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 10:54:40 am
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:58:57 am
It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.
Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 am
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 11:05:43 am
Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.

It varies a bit from town to town and neighborhood to neighborhood.  My kids get excited when they see all the police vehicles downtown, because they never see any in our own neighborhood.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 11:07:27 am
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
City police may well be different. I had mostly only dealt with RCMP.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:09:26 am
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
City police may well be different. I had mostly only dealt with RCMP.

True - in Toronto, the only time we ever saw the RCMP was when they did that musical ride thing at the royal fair.  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 11:11:04 am
Actually now that I think about it, the Saskatoon Police had also had a scandal maybe 10-12 years ago where they would take drunks outside of the city and let them walk back. These drunks were mostly natives and some of them apparently froze to death out there.

So maybe it's just an RCMP thing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 11:14:23 am
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Yeah, stories like that could be found everywhere across Canada - I heard them about the Sûreté du Québec when I lived in Ottawa, and I heard it about the VPD in Vancouver. It is my impression that there's less of it now, after concerted efforts to clean it up, but that before that it was endemic. And yeah, it usually targeted marginal groups - gays, natives, the homeless et. al.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on October 09, 2014, 11:14:42 am
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Are you sure it isn't more to do with the changes in your own life during the time - as a kid you probably had reasons to be somewhat fearful of police, whereas now you do not?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on October 09, 2014, 11:31:42 am
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Last year, some colleagues went on a company trip to Toronto. They had two run ins with the police.

1: walking around the harbor they saw a police speed boat. They asked the officer how fast it went, and kept badgering him until he took them for a spin of the harbor, saying, "Anyone asks, you're from Austrian police."

2: Three of our girls were waiting in front of a bar at night for their pick up. A police car kept cruising the parking lot keeping an eye on the suspicious ladies. Eventually they pulled up close and asked their business. They explained and the talked the police officer into posing with them, putting one of them in handcuffs and having her draped suggestively around him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:37:19 am
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

At our agency, we started seeing it as early as 2004 prior to the stop gap policies, and by 2007 they were applying--and we were accepting them--in droves.  And while our agency liked to see a lot of diversity, there were other agencies that wanted entire academy classes to look like they just stepped off Parris Island.

It was always a magnet, but it's only gotten worse.  But I'll defer to Berkut's experience in police recruiting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:42:03 am
Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 11:52:52 am
Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

Hopefully we'll find out.  I get the feeling you already have your mind made up, though.

Quote
There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

Sure.  Vonderrit still shot first.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on October 09, 2014, 11:55:11 am
Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

An individual running from approaching police is highly suspicious behaviour, and is grounds to detain a person to determine if a crime is being committed...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:00:44 pm
Hopefully we'll find out.  I get the feeling you already have your mind made up, though.

Not at all.  I want to know what happened, and not just be satisfied with the end result like you, which is one less black man in this world.

Quote
There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

Quote
Sure.  Vonderrit still shot first.

One of these days, maybe they'll get you to shoot first, too.



Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:05:46 pm
An individual running from approaching police is highly suspicious behaviour,

Was he moonlighting in uniform?  Most don't.   Did he announce himself as a police officer, or did he just look the part of security guard?  Plenty of people run from security guards all the time.

Quote
and is grounds to detain a person to determine if a crime is being committed...

Good thing you stay up in God's Country, where you only have to worry about the same three drunken Indians every week.   You'd be pretty fucking busy down here, jacking up every black guy trying to catch a bus.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on October 09, 2014, 12:14:46 pm
Quote

NY Cop Knocked Teen Out for Smoking: Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL-wqpy56tI

(Newser) – Marcel Hamer was walking home from school on the afternoon of June 4, smoking a cigarette, when a plainclothes police officer got out of his car and accused the now-17-year-old of smoking pot. A video of the Brooklyn incident picks up when Marcel is already on the ground, the officer apparently trying to handcuff him as the teen pleads, "Mister, it was just a cigarette, sir." As Marcel's friends protest from the sidelines—"Do you wanna get f---ed up?" the cop asks one at one point, then "Yeah, get it on film"—the officer appears to punch Marcel in the face, knocking him out, the Brooklyn Paper reports. The cop continues to order Marcel to "turn around," but the teen is apparently unconscious, and his friends start pleading with him to "wake up" while telling the cop, "You knocked him out." Eventually, another man—apparently a second undercover cop—helps handcuff Marcel as he lies unmoving on the street.

The teen's family says the officer hit him so hard he now has neurological problems, including headaches, dizziness, and memory loss. Lawyers for Marcel say that though the officer suspected him of smoking marijuana, he was only charged with disorderly conduct, New York reports; it's not clear what transpired between the officer and Marcel before the friend started recording, but Marcel's family is calling for the cop to be prosecuted. The family has also filed notice of a $5 million claim against the city, alleging excessive force, ABC 7 reports. The NYPD says the incident is under investigation. The video was released the same day as another one showing Brooklyn cops pistol-whipping an unarmed 16-year-old who had his hands in the air; he was ultimately arrested for marijuana possession, DNAinfo reports. Also yesterday, a video surfaced of another Brooklyn cop apparently taking $1,300 from a man during a stop-and-frisk, then pepper-spraying him when he demanded it back, the New York Daily News reports; that incident is also under investigation. (Meanwhile, in St. Louis, an off-duty cop shot a teen to death last night.)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:17:16 pm
Hamer smoked first.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on October 09, 2014, 12:19:25 pm
Bubba was pissed he had to run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfL2oozQbc
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:20:21 pm
and not just be satisfied with the end result like you, which is one less black man in this world.

That's your thang, not mine, CountDeKermitGosnell.  As in the Michael Brown shooting, I'm withholding judgment on the cop until we know all the facts.

Quote
One of these days, maybe they'll get you to shoot first, too.

Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:23:54 pm
Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.

Don't make me search the gun thread for your statements about "defending your family" during a forced entry warrant execution, Wayne.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:29:34 pm
Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.

Don't make me search the gun thread for your statements about "defending your family" during a forced entry warrant execution, Wayne.

That's a bit different from assaulting a cop in an alley and then shooting at him, innit?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:30:35 pm
That's a bit different from assaulting a cop in an alley and then shooting at him, innit?

If they kill you as a result, I'm not sure how much you and your family would care about those differences.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:31:12 pm
Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.

Don't make me search the gun thread for your statements about "defending your family" during a forced entry warrant execution, Wayne.

That's a bit different from assaulting a cop in an alley and then shooting at him, innit?

No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:32:12 pm
No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.

That's uncalled for.  I'm not nearly as race-conscious as you & Seedy apparently are.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:32:58 pm
No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.

That's uncalled for.  I'm not nearly as race-conscious as you & Seedy apparently are.

The fuck you aren't.  And it's all three of me, don't sell me short.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:33:25 pm
No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.

That's uncalled for.  I'm not nearly as race-conscious as you & Seedy apparently are.

... wait... CountDeMoney and Seedy are two different posters? :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:34:27 pm
 :blush: Thought I was responding to you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2014, 12:35:21 pm
It's nearly impossible to be as race-conscious as the three of you.

This is addressed to Seedy, but Jacob and Speiss can ponder whether it should apply to them as well.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 12:39:05 pm
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Are you sure it isn't more to do with the changes in your own life during the time - as a kid you probably had reasons to be somewhat fearful of police, whereas now you do not?

That must be nice. I'll likely always have a reason to be fearful.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 12:42:00 pm
I'm not at all race-conscious.  When I look at people, I don't see white people or black people.  I make sure to only go to places where I can see white people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2014, 12:45:30 pm
I'm not at all race-conscious.  When I look at people, I don't see white people or black people.  I make sure to only go to places where I can see white people.

Do you manage to pass?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 12:46:12 pm
I'm not at all race-conscious.  When I look at people, I don't see white people or black people.  I make sure to only go to places where I can see white people.

I get the joke but I think you need to workshop it more.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 12:46:56 pm
 :( Yeah, execution sucked on that one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:52:56 pm
It's nearly impossible to be as race-conscious as the three of you.

At least I'm willing to admit this nation has race issues that are integral to and unavoidable in our society, one that affects virtually every aspect of daily life, and we are absolutely no closer to dealing with it successfully now than we were in 1865 or 1965.
Saying it doesn't exist or saying it's "better", and not addressing it directly, is a bullshit cop-out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 12:54:49 pm
If it was the case that we were no better off now that in 1865, then I guess it is pretty hopeless to even bother trying.

Of course, that isn't the case at all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:59:33 pm
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2014, 01:01:41 pm
If you had commented "But you're white and he's black and that's how your math works" it would make more sense. ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 01:11:30 pm
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?

The quoted post he replied to, he thought you were the author.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 01:13:12 pm
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?

I was confused and thought you had written the post that Seedy wrote.  I hereby retract any previous allegations of race-consciousness as far as you are concerned  :pope:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 01:13:49 pm
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?

I was confused and thought you had wrote the post that Seedy wrote.  I hereby retract any previous allegations of race-consciousness as far as you are concerned  :pope:

:hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 02:16:21 pm
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 02:49:21 pm
If it was the case that we were no better off now that in 1865, then I guess it is pretty hopeless to even bother trying.

Of course, that isn't the case at all.

Yeah, let's sit on our laurels.  After all, they can vote now and they got a President, so what's their problem?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 02:57:07 pm
If it was the case that we were no better off now that in 1865, then I guess it is pretty hopeless to even bother trying.

Of course, that isn't the case at all.

Yeah, let's sit on our laurels.  After all, they can vote now and they got a President, so what's their problem?

Do you even have any idea how silly you sound?

If in fact we had made no progress since 1865, then we should sit on our laurels - hell, if the effect of 160 years of trying is "no better now than then" then we should probably conclude it is hopeless.

This is YOUR argument, not mine.

The reality is of course that we have made incredible progress, which suggests that we should *continue* to work, since progress is being made. Your argument, in your fanatical desire to make everything binary, is actually arguing against your own supposed desires.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 04:07:12 pm
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.

NLCS, BABY!!!  :punk:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 05:12:10 pm
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.

Definitely. Time to reassess your assumptions and reasoning.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 09, 2014, 06:01:50 pm
I side with Spicy and Raz also. Go cops!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 11:19:48 pm
My idiot brother drove up to St. Louis for some reason.  He just called on his cell to ask why they street is blocked off and every one is rioting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 11:22:05 pm
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.

Definitely. Time to reassess your assumptions and reasoning.

Well I should clarify and say I don't think Derspeiss should be shooting at cops from his house either.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:48:53 pm
Do you even have any idea how silly you sound?

If in fact we had made no progress since 1865, then we should sit on our laurels - hell, if the effect of 160 years of trying is "no better now than then" then we should probably conclude it is hopeless.

This is YOUR argument, not mine.

The reality is of course that we have made incredible progress, which suggests that we should *continue* to work, since progress is being made. Your argument, in your fanatical desire to make everything binary, is actually arguing against your own supposed desires.

Incredible progress.  At every turn, there has been nothing but consistent political, legal, economic and even violent push-back against progress.  Free the slaves?  Enter the Klan.  The Reconstruction amendments?  Pass Jim Crow laws.  Brown v Board of Education? School integration at the point of a  bayonet.  The US Department of Justice monitoring elections in the South and other areas for 50 years, our own country, like some sort of 3rd world shit hole. 

And now, TODAY, where the color of authority is still killing black men in obscenely disproportionate numbers.  Where states are making concrete, specific efforts to restricting the ability to vote, knowing full well who it's going to hit the hardest.  Where every possible attempt is being made to eliminate the safety net when the economic playing field still isn't even.  All this time, it's been a constant list of bullshit terms veiling true intentions.  "States' Rights."  "Separate But Equal."  "Welfare Fraud."  "Voter Fraud."  "Stand Your Ground."  It's always new code words masking the same racism, trying to force our society one step back for every two steps forward. 

Yesterday's jars of jelly beans are today's photo IDs. They're not drinking from separate water fountains, but there are active attempts to make sure they're being boxed into their own districts, like the one tossed out in Virginia. THIS FUCKING WEEK. 

If we've made such incredible progress as a society, why are we dealing with the same variations on a theme, over and over?  The same attempts from different angles, with different tactics?  Our society hasn't progressed as much as you think it has.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 10, 2014, 12:06:48 am
Well, we are at least making progress with you - we've gone from none at all to not as much as you think it has.

So that is something.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:08:57 am
Stop being that white guy that rates "On a scale of 1 to 10, have race relations improved in America" as an 8.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:09:06 am
It has progressed more than you are stating though, Seeds. While certainly there are still many fundamental things that need fixing, there has been progress. Like Berkut said, if we hadn't made any headway by now then we might as well give into the inevitability and give up.

I'd say that when I think about my life and the lives of other black people in my generation that I know - our lives are very different from what they would have been if we've all been born just two decades earlier.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:12:41 am
I'd say that when I think about my life and the lives of other black people in my generation that I know - our lives are very different from what they would have been if we've all been born just two decades earlier.

But I'm sure there's quite a few garbons somewhere in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and in plenty of inner cities elsewhere right now that would disagree with you.  And that's the unfortunate part.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:16:42 am
I'd say that when I think about my life and the lives of other black people in my generation that I know - our lives are very different from what they would have been if we've all been born just two decades earlier.

But I'm sure there's quite a few garbons somewhere in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and in plenty of inner cities elsewhere right now that would disagree with you.  And that's the unfortunate part.

Oh agreed. But Berkut is right to point out that we can't look at them and say no progress has been made. If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 am
If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?

When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:33:25 am
But who is saying the work is done? :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:43:38 am
But who is saying the work is done? :huh:

Apparently a substantial number of your fellow countrymen.  Voting Rights Act?  No longer necessary.  Affirmative Action? It's served its purpose.  Fair Housing Act?  Time to kill it.

There are plenty out there who think the Civil Rights movement is over.  And they're winning elections, crafting laws, sitting on court benches.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:53:13 am
I meant as in who here - in how Berkut inspired your ire but certainly wasn't saying that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 01:58:25 am
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Can black people keep on locking their car doors in the hood?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 06:36:02 am
If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?

When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Good news, now the car does it automatically.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:26:04 am
I lock the door when I see a skeev of any color.

I am better than you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:28:18 am
Well I should clarify and say I don't think Derspeiss should be shooting at cops from his house either.

I think we're of the same mind on that as well.  I can't imagine a situation where I'm leaning out of the bedroom window taking potshots at cops :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:29:16 am
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Do you do that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 10, 2014, 08:29:45 am
If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?

When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Good news, now the car does it automatically.
How does it detect black people?  :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 08:32:55 am
I lock the door when I see a skeev of any color.

I am better than you.

Not sure how this follows unless you are saying everyone is a skeev.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:33:05 am
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:35:03 am
I lock the door when I see a skeev of any color.

I am better than you.

Not sure how this follows unless you are saying everyone is a skeev.

They are.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:36:08 am
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:

 I am withholding the obvious racist joke since Grab is in the thread.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: HVC on October 10, 2014, 08:37:47 am
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:

 I am withholding the obvious racist joke since Grab is in the thread.
he self identifies as Indian :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:37:58 am
I can't think of anything obvious.  HEY THAT MEANS IM NOT RACISS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:41:06 am
I can't think of anything obvious.  HEY THAT MEANS IM NOT RACISS

Fuck it.

WATERMELON
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 09:01:12 am
:lol:  Oh, that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 09:09:27 am
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:

 I am withholding the obvious racist joke since Grab is in the thread.
he self identifies as Indian :P

That was several identities ago. At this point, with the facial hair I've got, I'm probably a terrorist. :weep:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 10, 2014, 12:15:00 pm
Oh, man.  I thought you were opposed to facial hair.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:18:33 pm
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Can black people keep on locking their car doors in the hood?

It's not going to save their windows.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:18:53 pm
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Do you do that?

Why should I?  I drive a stick shift.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:25:45 pm
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Do you do that?

Why should I?  I drive a stick shift.

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:27:41 pm
Oh, man.  I thought you were opposed to facial hair.

Maybe he's auditioning for Samir in Office Space 2.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:41 pm
:huh:

Never came across a carjacker that could drive a stick.  Had one once but it was a short chase, since he couldn't get out of 2nd.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:35:43 pm
Never came across a carjacker that could drive a stick.  Had one once but it was a short chase, since he couldn't get out of 2nd.

:lol: I never thought of that before.  I guess I can consider that a security feature on my Camry.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:38:57 pm
:lol: I never thought of that before.  I guess I can consider that a security feature on my Camry.

Most definitely.  A better deterrent than a steering wheel lock.   :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:37:17 pm
Oh, man.  I thought you were opposed to facial hair.

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 02:46:49 pm
Are you hoping for 20 acres and half a mule?  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:51:08 pm
Are you hoping for 20 acres and half a mule?  :P

One drop, baby, one drop! :yeah:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:56:42 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

KILL WHITEY
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:58:20 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

KILL WHITEY

Well that's a little extreme.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:59:58 pm
Might as well distill that project down to its intent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 03:01:36 pm
How so?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:06:02 pm
KILL WHITEY

Well that's a little extreme.

And incorrect, but hey, it's derweiß we're talking about here.  :pointyhood:

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:18:57 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

Did you notice the "About" page?

Technical staff:

Quote
FOR POV
Adnaan Wasey - Executive Producer for POV Digital
Simon Kilmurry - Executive Producer for POV
Emma Dessau - Web Producer
Sayeh Gorjifard - Intern
Shako Liu - Intern
Chaska Rojas-Bottger - Intern

Whitey, still reaping the fruits of minority labor.   :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 03:22:18 pm
I looked at some page about it. Mix of white, Indian and Asian folk.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:28:47 pm
When I was contracting with the federal government, two things caught my attention:

1.  The noticeable lack of individuals of Arab or Middle Eastern decent
2.  The tremendous abundance of Russians in IT and Scientific Computing

Just goes to show what a good, ol' fashioned 9/11 can do for rebalancing of the "Who's Scary Now?" demographics.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 03:30:50 pm
KILL WHITEY

Well that's a little extreme.

And incorrect, but hey, it's derweiß we're talking about here.  :pointyhood:

It's set up to make white people look silly & clueless, is it not?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:34:27 pm
It's set up to make white people look silly & clueless, is it not?

No, it is not.

The fact that white people look silly and clueless when it comes to discussing race...well, that's why we need to discuss race, now don't we?

Here, pick out which one you are:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/g65t3j/the-r-word

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 03:53:08 pm
That's some retarded shit, sir.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 03:54:22 pm
"Black people aren't interested in my job. Well, they should be, because I work in Fashion."  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 04:09:14 pm
It's set up to make white people look silly & clueless, is it not?

No, it is not.

The fact that white people look silly and clueless when it comes to discussing race...well, that's why we need to discuss race, now don't we?

Here, pick out which one you are:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/g65t3j/the-r-word



Sorry but that didn't work well at all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 04:16:50 pm
The fact that white people look silly and clueless when it comes to discussing race...well, that's why we need to discuss race, now don't we?

NATION OF COWARDS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 05:00:17 pm
That's some retarded shit, sir.

Talking about racism only exacerbates the problem!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 10, 2014, 05:04:33 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/ (http://www.whitenessproject.org/)

KILL WHITEY

Sadly I think this the typical view point of conservatives, that blacks are just waiting for the time when they can kill whites.  That's why Obama is so alarming to them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 05:36:47 pm
Talking about racism only exacerbates the problem!

That's not true, and that's not why the sketch is retarded.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 05:43:21 pm
Samantha Bee and the girl who made the Fashion comment I quoted appeared to be the only ones who knew they were doing a comedy sketch.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Samantha Bee and the girl who made the Fashion comment I quoted appeared to be the only ones who knew they were doing a comedy sketch.

The brother with the swollen eye was pretty good.  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on October 10, 2014, 05:55:12 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OfXVSSQQg
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:11:13 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OfXVSSQQg

When I saw that, I thought it was another sign of how bad SNL is in general. Sort of good ideas that aren't ever fully developed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 06:15:02 pm
Kind of surprised SNL is still on. Other than the Palin sketches and a couple with Andy Samberg, haven't seen much funny stuff from them in 15 years.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:40:23 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

i don't get it
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:43:55 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

i don't get it

ok?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:44:56 pm
what's its point?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:46:22 pm
ABOUT THE PROJECT

The Whiteness Project is a multiplatform investigation into how Americans who identify as “white” experience their ethnicity.

The project is conducting 1,000 interviews with white people from all walks of life and localities in which they are asked about their relationship to, and their understanding of, their own whiteness. It also includes data drawn from a variety of sources that highlights some quantitative aspects of what it means to be a white American.

This first installment, “Inside the White/Caucasian Box,” is a collection of 24 interviews filmed in Buffalo, NY in July 2014. Further installments will be posted in the months to come. To comment, or ask a question, please visit the project’s Facebook page.

ARTISTIC STATEMENT

While many media projects have investigated the history, culture, and experiences of various American ethnic minorities, there has been much less examination of how white Americans think about and experience their whiteness and how white culture shapes our society. Most people take for granted that there is a “white” race in America, but rarely is the concept of whiteness itself investigated. What does it mean to be a “white”? Can it be genetically defined? Is it a cultural construct? A state of mind? How does one come to be deemed “white” in America and what privileges does being perceived as white bestow? The Whiteness Project is a multi-platform media project that examines both the concept of whiteness itself and how those who identify as “white” process their ethnic identity. The project’s goal is to engender debate about the role of whiteness in American society and encourage white Americans to become fully vested participants in the ongoing debate about the role of race in American society.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:52:37 pm
a lot of non-whites don't (edit:) substantially think about race either, though. why is there a need for additional participation "in the ongoing debate about the role of race in American society"?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on October 10, 2014, 07:13:17 pm
a lot of non-whites don't (edit:) substantially think about race either, though. why is there a need for additional participation "in the ongoing debate about the role of race in American society"?
Apparently "whiteness" is an ethnicity now. Who knew?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 10, 2014, 08:29:00 pm
What a douche.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/nyregion/man-accuses-officer-of-taking-more-than-1000-video-prompts-investigation.html

Quote
Video of Officer Accused of Theft Prompts Inquiry

By STEPHANIE CLIFFORD
October 8, 2014

Lamard Joye was celebrating his 35th birthday with friends last month near a basketball court in Coney Island, Brooklyn. At some point, the police arrived and stopped a friend of his.

From several feet away, Mr. Joye objected. What happened next is now under investigation by the Brooklyn district attorney’s office, which is in possession of a cellphone video of the ensuing confrontation.

The video of the encounter, on Sept. 16 at around 12:20 a.m., shows a police officer steering Mr. Joye against a chain-link fence to pat him down. “Look,” Mr. Joye says. “Look, you see this? Look.” The police officer reaches into Mr. Joye’s pocket, removes what appears to be a folded stack of bills and steps back.

“Give me my money,” Mr. Joye says in the video. The police officer then sprays something at him.

Mr. Joye said the officer took more than $1,000 in cash and deployed pepper spray.

In the video, others in the crowd begin protesting. “He just stole his money,” says a voice close to the phone’s microphone. “How you going to take his money?” someone else says.

Mr. Joye, who was not arrested that night, said he has not gotten his money back; his lawyer, Robert Marinelli, said he has received no explanation of where that money was.

The Brooklyn district attorney, Kenneth P. Thompson, said his office was “aware of the alleged incident and it is being actively and thoroughly investigated.”

The officer’s identity is not known. The New York Police Department said in a statement:

“The incident was precipitated by a call of a man with a gun. When officers arrived at the scene, they encountered numerous people at the location. As a result of the allegations, the matter is under investigation by the Internal Affairs Bureau and CCRB,” referring to the Civilian Complaint Review Board.

Mr. Marinelli said he has submitted pay and bank records to the district attorney showing his client, who works in construction, had earned a few thousand dollars in early September and had withdrawn a couple of thousand dollars, intending to celebrate his birthday with his wife.

“I believe that this officer made an assumption that any money Mr. Joye possessed was obtained illegally and therefore he would not report the theft,” Mr. Marinelli said. “This assumption was wrong. Mr. Joye is a hardworking taxpayer. An incident like this would never occur in a more affluent section of the city.”

The video is one of several taped police encounters that have been publicized since Eric Garner of Staten Island died in July after a confrontation with police that was recorded on video.

The video of Mr. Joye’s encounter concludes with his sister, Lateefah Joye, confronting the police officer who patted down her brother.

“What’s your name?” she says to the officer, her face a few inches from his. “Say your name.”

“It’s right there,” the officer replies.

“I see it,” she says. At that point, the officer sprays something at her.

“I’m not touching you,” she says. The officer uses the spray again as the video ends.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 10:27:46 pm
Still think that project is a parody of some sort.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 13, 2014, 03:44:05 pm
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/13/cornel-west-arrested-ferguson-protests/17205907/

Quote
Clergy arrested in 'Ferguson October' march

Police arrested clergy members and prominent activist and academic Cornel West on Monday as they led hundreds of protesters in a march to the police station to draw attention to police shootings nationwide.

The protests Monday were the culmination of "Ferguson October" -- four days of activism and civil disobedience sparked by the killing of Michael Brown, an unarmed, 18-year-old black man, by a white police officer on Aug. 9 in the St. Louis suburb.

"Moral Monday," as the activists called it, began Monday morning at Wellspring Church in Ferguson. The demonstrators walked two blocks to the police station in heavy rain as leaders with bullhorns read the names of people killed by police nationwide, including Venderrit Myers, Jr, 18, killed last Wednesday by a white police officer in St. Louis. Police say Myers, who is black, shot first.

At the police station, where about 40 police officers in riot gear formed a protective line between marchers and the police station, three activists drew a chalk outline of a man lying on the ground. March organizer Rev. Osagyefo Sekou called it "a memorial for the body of Michael Brown."

"This space has already been sanctified by the youth and we just want to honor what they've done," Sekou said.

Clergy members then faced the police officers and demanded they confess their sins and repent. "Our children, our black children, are being killed. Would you repent?," one woman asked an officer who turned his face away from her.

"We are saying that these officers are members of our society and that they are part of a racist and sinful system," Sekou said. "We are offering them the opportunity to repent and to be reconciled into our community."

As the crowd knelt and prayed before the police, West and Sekou crossed the police line. Police handcuffed both men and put them in a police vehicle. Police arrested at least 12 others.

West told a crowd gathered at an interfaith event on Sunday night that he wanted police to arrest him.

"I didn't come here to give a speech," West said. "I came here to go to jail!"

Protesters clapped as police arrested the men.

"They are doing it for a cause and the cause is a great cause," said Doug Hollis, a cousin of both Michael Brown and Vonderrit Myers. "We are going to keep going strong."

Elsewhere in Ferguson, a coalition of labor and community members blocked the street in front of the headquarters of Emerson Electric,a Fortune 500 company that manufactures power equipment and employs more than 100,000 people worldwide.

"We are calling attention to the economic injustice we live with in Ferguson," said Jermaine Arms of Show Me $5, a labor rights group. "Justice for Mike Brown means justice for all of us. This should be a moment where we all take responsibility for the conditions that his death exposed."

On Friday, protesters marched to the St. Louis County prosecutor's office where they called on prosecutor Bob McCulloch to charge Darren Wilson, the officer who shot Brown. Wilson's case is before the grand jury.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 18, 2014, 09:18:23 pm
Quote
Authorities say Michael Brown’s blood found on gun, inside police car
By Sari Horwitz October 18 at 8:07 PM
Washington Post

Forensic evidence shows Michael Brown’s blood on the gun, uniform and inside the car of Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, law enforcement officials said, information they believe potentially corroborates the officer’s story that the unarmed 18-year-old tried to take his gun.

The evidence will make it harder for the Justice Department to prosecute Officer Darren Wilson on federal charges that he violated Brown’s civil rights, said the officials, who asked their names be withheld because of the sensitivity of the case.

Such evidence would also make it difficult for a county grand jury to indict Wilson on state charges, such as murder or manslaughter, said county sources who also are prohibited from talking on the record about the pending case.

The St. Louis County police, the FBI and a county grand jury are investigating the shooting. The Justice Department is investigating Ferguson and St. Louis County policing practices and whether they have violated the rights of residents.

Justice Department spokeswoman Dena Iverson declined to comment.

Wilson, who is white, fatally shot Brown, an African American, on Aug. 9 in the majority black St. Louis suburb of Ferguson.

The three-minute encounter on a sunny Saturday afternoon has rocked the metro area, which remains on edge as it faces continued protests and waits for the grand jury to decide whether Wilson should face any charges in Brown’s death.

The New York Times first reported the forensic evidence Friday, citing “government officials briefed on the federal civil rights investigation.”

Officials who spoke to The Washington Post on Saturday said the forensic evidence supports Wilson’s account that a scuffle occurred at the police vehicle, that Wilson feared for his life and that Brown went for, or lunged for, his gun. There were two shots fired in the vehicle, including one that hit Brown’s arm, an official said.

Wilson, who has not spoken publicly since the shooting, testified before the grand jury last month. His lawyer, James P. Towey Jr., did not return a call seeking comment Saturday.

Benjamin L. Crump, a lawyer for Brown’s family, could also not be reached for comment.

He told the Times, however, that Wilson’s word isn’t “gospel” and that he should be indicted and go to trial.

“The officer’s going to say whatever he’s going to say to justify killing an unarmed kid,” Crump told the Times. “Right now, they have this secret proceeding where nobody knows what’s happening and nobody knows what’s going on. No matter what happened in the car, Michael Brown ran away from him.”

It has never been in question that there was an altercation. Wilson was inside the vehicle and Brown was at the driver’s window. From the earliest days police have said that Brown had scuffled with Wilson and that a shot was fired in the vehicle.

In those first police accounts, St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said that Brown “allegedly pushed” Wilson back into the car after Wilson tried to open the door. Brown, police said, then “physically assaulted” Wilson, and went for the gun. Wilson fired inside the vehicle, they said. Wilson then got out and killed Brown, Belmar said. Police had said Wilson feared for his life because Brown charged him on the sidewalk.

Dorian Johnson, the 22-year-old who was with Brown when they encountered Wilson, gave another version of events: Wilson encountered them in the street and ordered them onto the sidewalk. Wilson drove past, then backed up and opened the car door so forcefully that it bounced against the two men. Wilson, still in the car, then grabbed Brown by his collar. Brown was trying to free himself and never tried to get the gun. Wilson drew his gun and threatened to shoot, then it went off. Johnson and Brown then ran.

Several other witnesses recounted activity at the car, but each said they were unclear about the nature of that encounter. They have offered varied though fundamentally similar versions of what happened afterward. Brown, witnesses said, was fleeing when Wilson opened fire on the street. After being hit by a bullet, Brown turned around with his hands up, trying to surrender, when the officer shot him several more times, they said.

Exactly how high Brown’s hands were has been inconsistent in the accounts and at least one witness said after Brown was shot he appeared to take a step toward Wilson. That witness said, however, Brown had his arms around his stomach before hitting the ground.

Brown was shot at least six times, according to three autopsies.

On Saturday, law enforcement officials declined to discuss what happened outside Wilson’s vehicle. St. Louis area authorities declined to comment Saturday.

Protests were explosive after the shooting, when demonstrators squared off against police who used tear gas and rubber bullets to try to disperse crowds. Images of police patrolling the streets during the day and clashing with demonstrators at night shocked many and drew concern from the White House and some Washington lawmakers.

Some protest organizers said they were unmoved by the forensic details, noting there’s no explanation provided of why Wilson continued to fire at Brown, who witnesses said was fleeing.

“It (does) make us more convinced that there’s not going to be an indictment,” said activist Deray McKesson.

A grand jury decision is expected sometime in November, according to the St. Louis County prosecutor’s office.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 18, 2014, 09:23:16 pm
No comment?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 18, 2014, 09:29:37 pm
Nothing to say.  The only thing "blood on the gun, uniform and inside the car" tells you is that blood goes everywhere when the human body is struck by a bullet at short range.  But I knew that already.

I'm still waiting for the cop to write his report of the incident, which he apparently still has not done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 23, 2014, 04:33:49 pm
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/official-autopsy-shows-michael-brown-had-close-range-wound-to/article_e98a4ce0-c284-57c9-9882-3fb7df75fef6.html

Quote
Official autopsy shows Michael Brown had close-range wound to his hand, marijuana in system

Autopsy of Michael Brown indicates he reached for cop's gun and had pot in system
WPIX - New York

October 22, 2014 8:55 am  •  By Christine Byers [email protected] 314-340-8087 and Blythe Bernhard [email protected] 314-340-8129Loading…

ST. LOUIS COUNTY • The official autopsy on Michael Brown shows that he was shot in the hand at close range, according to an analysis of the findings by two experts not involved directly in the case.

The accompanying toxicology report shows he had been using marijuana.

Those documents, prepared by the St. Louis County medical examiner and obtained by the Post-Dispatch, provide the most detailed description to date of the wounds Brown sustained in a confrontation Aug. 9 with Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson.

A source with knowledge of Wilson’s statements said the officer had told investigators that Brown had struggled for Wilson’s pistol inside a police SUV and that Wilson had fired the gun twice, hitting Brown once in the hand. Later, Wilson fired additional shots that killed Brown and ignited a national controversy.

The St. Louis medical examiner, Dr. Michael Graham, who is not part of the official investigation, reviewed the autopsy report for the newspaper. He said Tuesday that it “does support that there was a significant altercation at the car.”

Graham said the examination indicated a shot traveled from the tip of Brown’s right thumb toward his wrist. The official report notes an absence of stippling, powder burns around a wound that indicate a shot fired at relatively short range.

But Graham said, “Sometimes when it’s really close, such as within an inch or so, there is no stipple, just smoke.”

The report on a supplemental microscopic exam of tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter “consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm.”

Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”

Sources told the Post-Dispatch that Brown’s blood had been found on Wilson’s gun.

Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up.

She said Brown was facing Wilson when Brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. The wound to the top of Brown’s head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position toward the shooter; the shot was instantly fatal.

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.

The county medical examiner, Dr. Mary Case, could not be reached. The assistant who performed the autopsy, Dr. Gershom Norfleet, relayed word that he would not comment.

That post mortem, conducted the morning after Brown’s death, comports in most ways with the findings of a private autopsy arranged by Brown’s family and made public Aug. 18.

In that one, Dr. Michael M. Baden, a nationally known forensic pathologist, said none of Brown’s wounds appeared to have been from shots fired at close range.

Baden noted then that there was no gunshot residue on the body, so it appeared to him that the muzzle of the weapon was at least one or two feet away. He said, “It could have been 30 feet away.”

A third autopsy was ordered by federal officials as part of their separate investigation of the shooting. Results of that one have not been revealed.

The county and private autopsies agree on the number and location of the wounds.

The official autopsy also confirmed that tissue from Brown was found on the exterior of the driver’s side of Wilson’s vehicle.

“Someone got an injury that tore off skin and left it on the car,” Graham said. “That fits with everything else that came out. There’s blood in the car, now skin on the car, that shows something happened right there.”

The toxicology test, performed by a St. Louis University laboratory, revealed tetrahydrocannabinol, THC for short, in Brown’s blood and urine.

Alfred Staubus, a consultant in forensic toxicology at the Ohio State University College of Pharmacy, said that THC could impair judgment or slow reaction times but that there was no reliable measurement to make those conclusions.

States that have legalized marijuana have struggled with the issue of how to measure impairment.

“The detection of THC in the postmortem blood of Michael Brown really indicates his recent use of marijuana (within a few hours) and that he may or may not have been impaired at the time of his death,” Staubus wrote in an email.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 23, 2014, 04:38:19 pm
Also http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html

Quote
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch late Tuesday night published Brown’s official county autopsy report, an analysis of which also suggests that the 18-year-old may not have had his hands raised when he was fatally shot, as has been the contention of protesters who have demanded Wilson’s arrest.

[...]

Jurors have also seen the St. Louis County autopsy report, including toxicology test results for Brown that show he had tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana, in his system. The Post’s sources said the levels in Brown’s body may have been high enough to trigger hallucinations.


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on October 23, 2014, 04:46:10 pm
Also http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html

Quote
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch late Tuesday night published Brown’s official county autopsy report, an analysis of which also suggests that the 18-year-old may not have had his hands raised when he was fatally shot, as has been the contention of protesters who have demanded Wilson’s arrest.

[...]

Jurors have also seen the St. Louis County autopsy report, including toxicology test results for Brown that show he had tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana, in his system. The Post’s sources said the levels in Brown’s body may have been high enough to trigger hallucinations.

You can't tell shit from THC levels in the bloodstream.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 25, 2014, 09:40:43 pm
Here is how you tackle a guy with a knife by backing up:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGGToGpZ5Cs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 30, 2014, 04:03:08 pm
A buddy of mine is the Publisher & Editor at a newspaper.  He had to fire an editorial writer for writing on his personal blog that Brown was an "animal" that was "put down".  Dude must have been trying to get fired.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on October 31, 2014, 04:29:41 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/28/darrien-hunt-official-autopsy_n_6063930.html

Quote
Official Autopsy: Darrien Hunt, Black Man Killed By Utah Police, Was Shot In The Back

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A black man killed by Utah police died of multiple gunshot wounds, including several in the back of his body, according to an autopsy released Tuesday.

The official state autopsy documents six gunshot wounds on the body of 22-year-old Darrien Hunt and finds at least four of the shots entered his body from behind, generally confirming the results of an independent autopsy released by his family. It found no drugs in his system.

A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says.

An attorney for Hunt's family, Robert Sykes, disputed that account, saying a picture taken by a bystander shows Hunt smiling as he talked to two officers.

An investigation into whether the shooting was legally justified could be complete within a week, said Tim Taylor, chief deputy at the Utah County Attorney's Office. He said the trajectory of the shots found by the autopsy indicates Hunt was turning away when they were fired, but investigators are still looking at exactly what happened during the encounter.

The autopsy shows four of the gunshots found in Hunt's body traveled back to front. A fifth shot that struck his left arm appears to have come from the front and a sixth traveled downward after entering the back of his forearm.

"I think that means they were pursing him, he was running away. He was probably scared to death," said Sykes.

Hunt was shot Sept. 10 as he walked around a strip mall in Saratoga Springs dressed as a Japanese anime character and carrying a sword that his family said was decorative. Police said someone called 911 after seeing Hunt with the metal sword, and officers fired after Hunt lunged at them with it.

Hunt's family has said Saratoga Springs police used excessive force and treated him differently because he was black. Police say race wasn't a factor.

The officers involved were identified as Cpl. Matthew Schauerhamer and Officer Nicholas Judson.

Saratoga Springs is an upscale city of 23,000 people south of Salt Lake City. About 93 percent of residents are white and less than 1 percent is black, according to U.S. Census figures.


http://www.sltrib.com/home/1758399-155/hunt-sword-schauerhamer-affidavit-officers-darrien

Quote
Utah officer says he shot Darrien Hunt to prevent him from harming others

The deadly encounter between Darrien Hunt and two Saratoga Springs police officers started innocently enough: the 22-year-old man wanted a ride to Orem.

Saratoga Springs police Cpl. Matt Schauerhamer said he would give him a ride but with one caveat: Hunt couldn’t have the samurai-style sword strapped to his back with him inside the patrol car.

Things quickly escalated from that point, according to a newly unsealed search warrant affidavit filed in 4th District Court, which reveals many new details about the Sept. 10 fatal shooting of Hunt by Schauerhamer and Officer Nicholas Judson.

Schauerhamer told investigators that after Hunt swung the sword at him "he knew he had to stop Mr. Hunt before he was able to hurt or kill someone," the affidavit states.

Hunt allegedly became violent over the suggestion of giving up his sword.

"Corporal Schauerhamer asked Mr. Hunt to place the sword on the hood of the patrol car," Utah County attorney’s office investigator Mark Dell’Ergo wrote in the affidavit, which was made public Wednesday. "Mr. Hunt refused, saying, ‘I can’t do that.’ "

As Judson stood nearby, Schauerhamer asked Hunt why he couldn’t put the sword down. Hunt allegedly replied, "It’s my sword."

Dell’Ergo wrote that once Hunt was told he could not have the sword in the patrol car, he unsheathed the sword and "moved toward Corporal Schauerhamer, swinging it."

At that point, Schauerhamer drew his weapon and fired at Hunt, according to the affidavit — setting off a foot chase that would ultimately end in Hunt being hit six times by the two officers’ bullets.

Two witnesses, cited in the affidavit, also said that Hunt swung the sword. The first was Melanie Wride, who told investigators that she saw Hunt move his hands "like he was laughing," and that his conversation with an officer lasted 30 to 60 seconds before he pulled a sword and swung it " ‘very hard’ at the officer who had just pulled up in the police car."

The other witness was Leonard Zogg, who saw Hunt unsheath the sword and swing it at an officer, according to the affidavit. However, Zogg told KUTV 2News on Wednesday that the affidavit misrepresents his statement, and that he only saw Hunt unsheath the sword, not swing it.

But Schauerhamer told investigators that he fired at Hunt as he ran away because he felt he needed to stop the sword-carrying man before he reached the parking lot of a Wal-Mart.

The affidavit also revealed more information about Hunt’s state of mind and alleged drug use. The Utah County man’s family allegedly told investigators that Hunt had been making and using dimethyltyptamine, a hallucinogen also know as DMT, in the weeks before the fatal shooting.

His mother, Susan Hunt, also told investigators about a phone call she had received the morning of the shooting, where her daughter’s boyfriend told her that Darrien Hunt had posted a concerning Facebook message: "I have a sword and I’m going to get shot."

Hunt was shot six times by the two officers after they encountered Hunt after two 911 callers reported seeing a man walking with a samurai-style sword near Redwood Road and State Road 73, according to the affidavit.

After Hunt allegedly swung the sword and Schauerhamer fired his first rounds, Judson moved away to avoid Hunt, Dell’Ergo wrote, and fired once towards the man after he heard shots fired by Schauerhamer.

Hunt then ran east with the two officers chasing him. The affidavit states Schauerhamer reloaded his weapon as Hunt ran west behind a Top Stop.

"Mr. Hunt was still holding the sword sheath in his left hand and the sword in his right hand," the affidavit states. "Corporal Schauerhamer yelled, ‘Stop!’ as Mr. Hunt fled."

Hunt continued running, and when he reached the northeast corner of the Panda Express, Schauerhamer fired again. As Hunt rounded the corner of the Panda Express and began to head west toward Wal-Mart, Schauerhamer fired three more shots.

"Mr. Hunt dropped the sword sheath and fell to the ground," the affidavit states. "The sword came out of Mr. Hunt’s right hand and slid along the ground several feet from where Mr. Hunt fell."

Hunt died at the scene.

Robert Sykes, the Hunt family attorney, said Wednesday that he felt the search warrant was improperly used by investigators. He said he felt they were trying to get the information to fend off a potential civil suit — not to find out what actually happened.

"I think it is improper to have used a search warrant in a proposed criminal case that could never be filed," he told The Tribune. "They are [trying] to get evidence of a crime that’s never going to get filed."

Dell’Ergo wrote that investigators wanted access to Hunt’s Facebook account and cell phone to investigate an alleged aggravated assault of a police officer — and to help law enforcement officers understand what was happening in Hunt’s life before the shooting.

Utah County Attorney Jeff Buhman said the information will help give them a better understanding, and a full picture, of what happened that day.

"We will do a comprehensive investigation," Buhman said Wednesday. "We want to know why. If we can know why."

Buhman has yet to rule whether the two officers were justified in using deadly force. He said he believes that decision could come as soon as Friday.

Utah Criminal Code states that an officer is justified in using deadly force if the officer "reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the officer or another person."

An officer is also justified in using deadly force if an arrested subject is fleeing and the officer believes the person has committed a felony offense involving death or serious bodily injury or that "the suspect posed a threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or to others if apprehension is delayed."

"I’m looking at it more simply," Buhman said. "Did they have justification to shoot him? The fleeing is a factor."

The deadly encounter as described in the search warrant affidavit differs from the account given by a medical examiner investigator.

In the ME report, which Sykes released Tuesday, the investigator wrote that "the first officer exited his vehicle and the subject charged him swinging a sword." It makes no mention of any conversation Hunt and the officers had before the shooting.

Buhman said these inconsistencies are because the medical examiner investigator had very little information immediately available to him, while the search warrant affidavit was filed a month later as the investigation continued.

"The investigation has progressed significantly," Buhman said. "These are large investigations. When they are at the ME’s office, they have very little information at that point, so they are using what is available at that time."

The affidavit also included statements from several witnesses who saw the shooting unfold.

One woman said that from her vehicle, she saw Hunt swing the sword "very hard" at the officer before the two officers pulled their weapons and began firing. Another man gave a similar account.

The sword — which family members have described as a toy "katana" sword — belonged to Hunt’s brother, according to the affidavit.

The autopsy report from the state Office of the Medical Examiner concluded that Hunt died from multiple gunshots fired from behind.

Sykes said Tuesday that the family believes the officers used excessive force on that day.

"You can’t use deadly force on a fleeing suspect unless there is an immediate risk of harm — serious bodily harm or death to police or others nearby," Sykes said at a Tuesday news conference. "He’s running from the police. They can’t have been in any legitimate fear that he was going to harm them. They chased him and had an old-fashioned shootout on an innocent boy who had probably done nothing."

On Wednesday, Sykes said the information in the search warrant affidavit did not change his view.

"They didn’t need to use deadly force on him," he said. "They shot him down like a dog in the street. That’s just awful."

The findings of Utah medical examiner Pamela Ulmer were similar to a private autopsy done for the family that was released earlier this month, according to Sykes.

The medical examiner concluded that Hunt’s cause of death was "multiple gunshots" — with the direction of fire being "posterior to anterior," or from back to front.

Ulmer identified six gunshots in all, one penetrating Hunt’s right back and lodging in his lung, while other bullets struck him in the right upper arm, right forearm, left upper arm, left elbow and left hip.

Ulmer also found no traces of illegal drugs in Hunt’s blood.

It's difficult to find clear info on where on the scale between toy and replica the alleged katana falls (is it visibly of plastic, is it made to look like metal, etc.).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 31, 2014, 07:41:31 am
A buddy of mine is the Publisher & Editor at a newspaper.  He had to fire an editorial writer for writing on his personal blog that Brown was an "animal" that was "put down".  Dude must have been trying to get fired.

Maybe he should've have written a letter to the editor instead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 31, 2014, 08:38:30 am
A buddy of mine is the Publisher & Editor at a newspaper.  He had to fire an editorial writer for writing on his personal blog that Brown was an "animal" that was "put down".  Dude must have been trying to get fired.

Maybe he should've have written a letter to the editor instead.

A letter to himself?  That might've worked.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 10:19:55 pm
If Anonymous is to be believed the Ferguson PD is even more fucked up than previously thought. :wacko: :yuk:


(http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/11-15-2014-11-56-35-AM.jpg)
(http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/11-15-2014-11-52-01-AM.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 10:22:39 pm
You've got to be kidding. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 10:28:18 pm
You've got to be kidding. :mellow:
Anonymous took over their twitter feed and started outing Ferguson/St. Louis members after the KKK distributed fliers saying they would use lethal force against protesters.

Now, Anonymous isn't always accurate, but I'd say the information they dig up is right more often than not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 16, 2014, 10:28:40 pm
Aw, puppies! :wub:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on November 16, 2014, 10:28:49 pm
Do those pics link them to the KKK?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 10:36:43 pm
The fliers in question

http://i.imgur.com/C6Tm3Or.jpg

^^^ I don't think so MIM, they're just claiming the folks there in are members and using the photos to out them to the public. If not true it's reckless slander. If true, I'm not gonna cry any tears for them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 10:42:04 pm
It's a shame they didn't bother to share their evidence with their followers.

But I suppose if Timmy vouches for their credibility that should be good enough.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 10:47:06 pm
It's a shame they didn't bother to share their evidence with their followers.

But I suppose if Timmy vouches for their credibility that should be good enough.


Rock solid endorsement right here  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quote
If Anonymous is to be believed
Quote
the information they dig up is right more often than not.
Quote
they're just claiming the folks there in are members and using the photos to out them to the public.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 16, 2014, 10:50:43 pm
Man, between this and that bizarro hijacking of Raz's AAR, Tim is being really lame these days.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 16, 2014, 11:26:40 pm
Tim needs to follow Lettow's example and take on a Korean bride.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 17, 2014, 12:13:20 am
Tim needs to follow Lettow's example and take on a Korean bride.

Yes, and scorn the ways of Timmayness.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 12:31:43 am
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 09:49:03 am
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

What is your opinion?  Based on what you know, should he be indicted?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 11:18:21 am
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

What is your opinion?  Based on what you know, should he be indicted?

I don't like the fact that an unarmed individual was shot in what looks--to me at least--an officer-escalated situation;  and if he was indeed challenging two suspects wanted in a robbery (which is still up in the air definitively), he did it the wrong way.

Quote
Sources have told the Post-Dispatch that Wilson has told authorities that before the radio call he had stopped to tell Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, 22, to quit walking down the middle of the street. They kept walking, and he then realized that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call.

Wilson then asked dispatch for backup and backed up his SUV next to Brown and Johnson.

You're behind the wheel of a car, that's perhaps the most defenseless position you can be in.  Maybe I was always a little more sensitive to that for being a lefty, but you don't challenge active suspects from your car window like you're ordering from the drive-thru.  You get out of your car and approach.  If they bunny, well, then we're off.

Quote
Wilson said Brown attacked him, sources said, and that they struggled over the officer’s gun before Wilson was able to fire twice, hitting Brown once. Brown ran away.

Wilson has told authorities that he called, “Shots fired, send all cars,” on his radio, but during the struggle his radio had been jarred and the channel changed.

The Post-Dispatch reviewed radio calls made during that period on all St. Louis County police channels, the fire channel used by Ferguson and other channels publicly archived online and could not locate the call. At least one channel on the Ferguson police radio is “receive-only,” meaning that the call may not have been broadcast.

After the call, Wilson pursued Brown on foot.

According to sources, Wilson has said that Brown turned and charged, and that Wilson then fired once, paused when Brown appeared to flinch and fired again, multiple times. He said he then radioed for an ambulance.

But this tidbit came out recently, which I found very interesting:

Quote
The calls released to the Post-Dispatch don’t include the point when shots were fired, but an unidentified man who said he was trying to make a video message using the app Glide near where Wilson encountered Brown said he captured the gunshots.

Glide verified that the recording — which includes what sounds like a volley of six shots, a brief pause, and then another four or five shots — was taken at the time of the shooting. The St. Louis County prosecutor's office spokesman said if the recording was validated by the FBI, it could prove to be a key piece of evidence in the case.

Maybe Wilson's recollection was off, adrenaline does that.  Or maybe not.

Somebody that big, sometimes the only way to stop them is to shoot them.  But my problem with this scenario is that a teenager, no matter how big or tough he is, is going to go down on the first shot. He's a kid, not a dusted-out tweaker in a rage feeling no pain, nor is he a hardcore ex-con cop fighter with a hard-on to score another teardrop tat.  And thieving kids run from the cops, even ones that think they're tough enough to slap around immigrant store clerks.  They don't turn around, charge and fight for an officer's firearm.  Especially when they're already shot.  Not over a box of Swishers.

Maybe cigar-stealing teens in Ferguson are more bad ass than those slinging vials for gangs in West Baltimore so my personal experience could be out of line and this kid could've been a budding Marcellus Wallace, but the whole situation around this shooting just doesn't add up to me.  You have your righteous shootings and then you have your bad shootings--and this one just smells like a bad shooting. 

That would warrant an indictment, if only to bring the whole thing to trial.  But even the prosecutors don't want one, so it's not going to happen.  It's just one big, sad mess.  But it's obvious that Ferguson has a lot more problems with their police department and how it deals with its community than this incident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 04:22:52 pm
Even if he isn't indicted, I don't see how he can ever go back to work there.  How on earth do you resolve that situation?

Also I'm surprised they didn't go ahead and make the announcement today, before the cold snap passes by.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 17, 2014, 04:32:42 pm
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

It's been cold, and there is snow on the ground in Missouri.  Maybe that'll cut down on the rioting.  I thought they should wait till mid January and release the findings when there is a foot of snow on the ground.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 17, 2014, 04:34:55 pm
You've got to be kidding. :mellow:

I don't quite follow what those pictures are suppose to represent.  I don't see how that's evidence of being in the Klan.  Good way to get someone killed though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 04:44:24 pm
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

It's been cold, and there is snow on the ground in Missouri.  Maybe that'll cut down on the rioting.  I thought they should wait till mid January and release the findings when there is a foot of snow on the ground.

Should warm up a bit later this week, though. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 17, 2014, 04:45:15 pm
“Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?”

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

i don't get it

ok?
Probably a bit of a tangent now, but I recommend Richard Dyer's White on this, which aims to racialise whiteness. It's very good:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Essays-Culture-Richard-Dyer/dp/0415095379
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 04:55:53 pm
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/17/nixon-activates-missouri-national-guard/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 05:14:54 pm
Even if he isn't indicted, I don't see how he can ever go back to work there.  How on earth do you resolve that situation?

Yeah, even if he's not indicted or fired, he'd have to move elsewhere.  Or become a consultant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Scipio on November 17, 2014, 05:36:20 pm
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/17/nixon-activates-missouri-national-guard/
He's no Richard Nixon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2014, 12:57:06 am
That's one down.

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/11/ferguson_corrections_officer_charged_with_raping_inmate_in_city_jail_in_2013.php

Quote
Crime
Jaris Hayden, Former Ferguson Corrections Officer, Charged with Raping Inmate in City Jail

By Jessica Lussenhop Mon., Nov. 17 2014 at 2:20 PM
24 Comments   

Categories: Crime, Ferguson

A former City of Ferguson corrections officer has been charged with the rape of a jail inmate. The incident occurred back on October 9, 2013, but the charges against Jaris Hayden -- for felony sexual contact with an inmate and permitting an escape -- were just filed on November 5 of this year.

The indictment came just a week and a half before the victim, identified only as J.W., filed a suit in federal court against the City of Ferguson as well as Hayden. She was in custody for driving with expired plates and giving a police officer a fake name.

"When you read the case, you're going to see there's claims against Ferguson that state that Ferguson's department has customs and practices that are so bad that those practices cause those incidents," says W. Bevis Schock, the attorney representing J.W.

Hayden began work as a corrections officer for Ferguson in May 2012. On October 9, 2013, he booked and fingerprinted J.W. when she got to the jail. According to the lawsuit, he told her she "smelled good" and that "this will teach you a lesson."

The court document goes on to say that when J.W. -- who was several months pregnant at the time -- complained she was having pain and discharge, EMTs checked her vital signs but then left it up to Hayden whether or not she'd be released into their custody. The EMTs left without taking J.W. with them. After J.W.'s boyfriend posted her bail, Hayden was allegedly having J.W. sign papers for her release when she said, "I will do anything to go home."

(Note: The next paragraphs of this story include explicit descriptions of sexual violence.)

According to the complaint:

    By that remark J.W. did not intend to deliver the message that she would have sex with Hayden in exchange for release...J.W. was in great fear. Hayden was in a position of complete power over J.W. Hayden said "Follow-me," and took her down various hallways. Hayden took J.W. into a boiler room in the City of Ferguson jail. Hayden then unbuttoned his pants, removed his penis from his pants.

The complaint alleged that Hayden forced J.W. to perform oral sex on him and had vaginal intercourse with her before ejaculating in his hand. J.W. managed to "capture" a few of Hayden's pubic hairs during the incident. Hayden then allowed J.W. to leave by a side door, and to "run and stay close to the building" to avoid security cameras. According to the document, J.W. immediately went to a Subway across the street and got a bag to put the pubic hairs in. She also went to the emergency room where she was visited by police.

According to the complaint, the hairs J.W. saved were a match to Hayden's DNA.

The Ferguson city clerk responded to a request for comment with this statement, confirming that about a month after the incident Hayden was fired:

    Following the filing of a lawsuit on Friday, the City of Ferguson can confirm that Jaris Hayden was previously a corrections officer for the City of Ferguson. Immediately upon learning of the complaint against Mr. Hayden, the City undertook an investigation which resulted in Mr. Hayden's termination from employment. In addition, City officials and employees cooperated with federal authorities with respect to the matter. Mr. Hayden was terminated on November 19, 2013. He had been a corrections officer for the City of Ferguson since May 25, 2012.


On November 5, 2014, the county prosecutor charged Hayden with four felonies: two for sexual contact with an inmate, one for permitting the escape and one for a "public servant acceding to corruption." Schock says the length of time between the initial incident and the arrest of Hayden was because authorities were waiting to receive the DNA results, plus the fact that the investigation was being handled by federal, not local, authorities. And according to Schock, the timing of the arrest, charges and the federal lawsuit is related to the unrest after the shooting death of eighteen-year-old Michael Brown.

"It was just sort of percolating along in the fed's system. When the Brown thing happened, everything got a little more focus on what happens in Ferguson," says Schock.

Hayden posted bail and is at home according to his attorney, Scott Rosenblum.

"We're going to evaluate the evidence and enter a plea of not guilty," Rosenblum tells Daily RFT. "That's his position."

Read the federal lawsuit and the indictment below:...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 10:37:58 am
(http://img.opposingviews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/350x250/featured_image/1114/dontlootsign_featured.jpg)

:ph34r:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 11:13:55 am
How about #dontshootunarmedkids?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 11:15:57 am
How about #dontshootunarmedkids?

Pretty sound advice for the most part.  Kind of like #dontassaultarmedcops & #dontcommitrobbery
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 11:20:47 am
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 11:28:35 am
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.

He clearly did.  Store owner was just fearful for his life.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 11:30:47 am
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.

He clearly did.  Store owner was just fearful for his life.

How is it clear?  There is something clear about this?  But again I thought whether or not he robbed the store it was immaterial to the shooting which was unrelated.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Habbaku on November 18, 2014, 11:37:12 am
DerSpites has a different definition of clearly than most, it would seem.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 11:38:45 am
How is it clear?  There is something clear about this?

Seemed pretty clear to me. 

Quote
But again I thought whether or not he robbed the store it was immaterial to the shooting which was unrelated.

It was semi-related.  But most importantly it changed the popular narrative that Michael Brown was a "gentle giant".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 11:40:42 am
DerSpites has a different definition of clearly than most, it would seem.

Are you saying it wasn't clearly a robbery?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 11:52:15 am
Quote
Seemed pretty clear to me.

Based on what?  Is this secret knowledge?

But most importantly it changed the popular narrative that Michael Brown was a "gentle giant".

Well whether or not it actually occurred hardly matters then since it changed popular narratives.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 11:52:59 am
Are you saying it wasn't clearly a robbery?

And you are...and you won't say why...despite me fucking asking you twice.  Any particular reason?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 11:59:35 am
Are you saying it wasn't clearly a robbery?

And you are...and you won't say why...despite me fucking asking you twice.  Any particular reason?

The surveillance video.

Oh, and his buddy admitted they had robbed the damn place.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 12:20:28 pm
Also the owner called it in to the police.  If Mike Brown survived his encounter with the police he'd be in jail awaiting trial for robbery and possibly assault.  I think Ide would call this the best possible outcome.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 12:24:35 pm
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.

He clearly did.  Store owner was just fearful for his life.

How is it clear?  There is something clear about this?  But again I thought whether or not he robbed the store it was immaterial to the shooting which was unrelated.

This is no longer believed to be the case.  Leaked tapes indicate that the officer had been given a description of the robbers, saw them, asked them to get out the street, then realized they fit the description and radioed that he had may have found them and asked for assistance.  He then backed up the car to talk to them.  One ran, the other attacked him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 02:05:58 pm
I haven't read much of this thread and I assume this has already been said. This is going to erupt no matter the Grand Jury decision. If they don’t indict the cop then people will riot over the injustice of letting him go. If they do indict the cop then people will riot over the injustice of the system being against them that this kind of thing happens.

It's going to be spurred mostly by radical types - Marxists, extreme leftists, anarchists, and the worst of the remnants of the Occupy movement. They've said they'll target local businesses (Budweiser and others mentioned), and institutional elements like government buildings, as if those things are the cause of racial issues. Those things represent what they're really after as they're all about a whole different agenda and this issue just gives them a place and time to go nuts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 02:10:37 pm
DerSpites has a different definition of clearly than most, it would seem.

As long as the end result is a dead negro, but that's nothing new.  derweiß does like 'em dead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 02:19:51 pm
I saw a dead cat alongside the road today.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 02:23:10 pm
Probably black, you probably snickered and sent out lolniggercats memes to all your buddies.  Creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 08:33:15 pm
I think if this really explodes into violence again then Ferguson is going to become a pariah town. Businesses moving out, property values plummeting, people who can will be moving out and that'll take the more prosperous people who have the means further degrading the town's tax base and economy. I don't think other towns like Watts Cal have ever really recovered from their rioting, have they?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 18, 2014, 08:44:43 pm
Watts has the advantage of being a part of Los Angeles, so prone to be gentrified sooner or later.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 08:46:46 pm
DC is bouncing back pretty impressively.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 08:53:14 pm
Towns ripped apart like that can recover but it'll likely take years. I figure many businesses won't be remaining if they've been burned and trashed a couple times or more. People start moving out, if they can sell their homes because if the town hasn't recovered then people aren't very likely to buy property and want to move in.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 09:28:02 pm
Our previously troubled section of town is gentrifying quite nicely.  One does wonder if all that progress could be undone in the wake of a single unfortunate event, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 10:13:22 pm
I think if this really explodes into violence again then Ferguson is going to become a pariah town. Businesses moving out, property values plummeting, people who can will be moving out and that'll take the more prosperous people who have the means further degrading the town's tax base and economy. I don't think other towns like Watts Cal have ever really recovered from their rioting, have they?

Yeah, that town is dead.   I went through there, it's not bad.  It certainly hasn't been torn up badly, but merchants are going to move out.  The local Walmart is already closed. Ten years it'll be like North St. Louis.  It's one of the things I find most depression about this. Most the protesters don't give a fuck either, they aren't from there. 


Btw, Watts and Compton have sorta bounced back.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 21, 2014, 01:06:05 pm
Looks like shit is about to happen.  County prosecutor is preparing a press conference and Holder is telling the police to exercise restraint.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on November 22, 2014, 06:57:52 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-arrests-two-ferguson-bomb-suspects-law-enforcement-050501108.html (http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-arrests-two-ferguson-bomb-suspects-law-enforcement-050501108.html)
 No, it wasn't the KKK.



Quote

Against this backdrop of heightened tensions, according to a law enforcement source, two men described as reputed members of a militant group called the New Black Panther Party, were arrested in the St. Louis area in an FBI sting operation.

As initially reported by CBS News, the men were suspected of acquiring explosives for pipe bombs that they planned to set off during protests in Ferguson, according to the official, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the case.

The official said the two men are the same pair named in a newly unsealed federal indictment returned on Nov. 19 charging Brandon Orlando Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis with purchasing two pistols from a firearms dealer under false pretenses.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 12:57:34 am
Quote
The official said the two men are the same pair named in a newly unsealed federal indictment returned on Nov. 19 charging Brandon Orlando Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis with purchasing two pistols from a firearms dealer under false pretenses.

I thought anyone could just go into a store in the US and buy a gun - so how does "false pretences" work in this situation?

Or was it a part of a more widely recognised crime of "purchasing firearms while black"?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 01:00:04 am
It's one of the things I find most depression about this. Most the protesters don't give a fuck either, they aren't from there. 

I find it quite fitting - a bunch of racists who live there will get their just desserts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2014, 01:36:09 am
The town is majority black.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 02:56:13 am
Quote
The official said the two men are the same pair named in a newly unsealed federal indictment returned on Nov. 19 charging Brandon Orlando Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis with purchasing two pistols from a firearms dealer under false pretenses.

I thought anyone could just go into a store in the US and buy a gun - so how does "false pretences" work in this situation?

Or was it a part of a more widely recognised crime of "purchasing firearms while black"?

They were attempting to purchase firearms for someone who is not allowed to have them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 07:02:59 am
So, it looks like the Cleveland police have just shot a black 12 y.o. waving a toy gun...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 24, 2014, 07:06:36 am
So, it looks like the Cleveland police have just shot a black 12 y.o. waving a toy gun...
So Cleveland/America/cops/white people     suck/are stupid/evil/racist ?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 07:10:02 am
I deliberately refrained from posting a judgement. Though you do seem to have a bit of a trend going on there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 24, 2014, 07:13:37 am
What color was the gun?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 07:16:56 am
What color was the gun?

Black?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 24, 2014, 07:19:10 am
Can't really blame the cop if it looked like a real gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 07:22:46 am
Can't really blame the cop if it looked like a real gun.

Possibly. I'm just saying there is a trend of kids being shot in situations where, objectively speaking, they shouldn't have been. And in each case the kid being shot is black.

Now this could all be within the realm of probability and statistics of "honest mistakes" or it could be statistically significant of something troubling.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 07:24:36 am
Btw, there is a witness account that people at the scene told the cops the gun was most likely fake.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 07:46:16 am
If the initial reports are correct, I don't think I'd fault the cops on this. It was an air pistol, btw.

The gun wasn't readily recognizable as a replica. The boy had it tucked into the waistband. When the cops told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2014, 07:55:11 am
If the initial reports are correct, I don't think I'd fault the cops on this. It was an air pistol, btw.

The gun wasn't readily recognizable as a replica. The boy had it tucked into the waistband. When the cops told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun.

So do they still shot to kill if it's an 11 year old, or a 9 year old, or maybe a 7 year old gets a pass?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 08:01:33 am
Btw, there is a witness account that people at the scene told the cops the gun was most likely fake.
Well, if the witnesses were very confident that it was most likely fake, then it's another matter.  You shouldn't shoot if civilians on the scene think there is no need to do so.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 08:02:31 am
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 08:05:11 am
Btw, there is a witness account that people at the scene told the cops the gun was most likely fake.
Well, if the witnesses were very confident that it was most likely fake, then it's another matter.  You shouldn't shoot if civilians on the scene think there is no need to do so.

You will also have to rely on the judgment of the civilians who may or may not be familiar with guns.

Again, I'm usually one quickly to caution against excessive force when dealing with situations, and there's a lot of cases where I disagree with its application or think that cops overreact, but in this case I find myself siding with the cops, unless there's additional detail I'm missing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 24, 2014, 08:07:24 am
If the initial reports are correct, I don't think I'd fault the cops on this. It was an air pistol, btw.

The gun wasn't readily recognizable as a replica. The boy had it tucked into the waistband. When the cops told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun.

So do they still shot to kill if it's an 11 year old, or a 9 year old, or maybe a 7 year old gets a pass?
Why would they give a pass to anybody pulling a gun on them?

The unfortunate part about guns is that they allow anyone, no matter how small, to kill.  The cops aren't killing all these kids because they're racist, or evil.  They're killing them because American society was divided by racism for a very long time, and the attitudes towards police are very different in blacks vs. in whites.  When you add to that the barbaric laws and attitudes towards pistols, you get a real problem, where police are always on edge in certain areas.

At this point, there really is no solution to it.  You can't change peoples attitudes when American law enforcement commits a new atrocity every week, and you can't take the firearms out of the equation, for both political and technical reasons.  It'll just get worse and worse as the years roll by.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 08:37:41 am
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

Everybody always fucking knows better.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:45:11 am
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 08:50:53 am
I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

The gun is the determining factor, not the child. So you'd be wrong, which is what happens when you're not a trained cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 08:54:03 am
I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.
Yeah, in this situation, the cop should've definitely aimed for the leg.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 08:56:22 am
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 08:57:01 am
I wish I could shoot DG in the leg.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 09:00:22 am
I wish I could shoot DG in the leg.
:mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 09:01:01 am
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Absolutely.  I can imagine that being a major topic they cover at the academy:

"Okay recruits, this morning we're going over the finer points on how to shoot kids..."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2014, 09:01:25 am
Really these cops are just feminists plying their divisive agenda to outlaw all toy weapons*.





* This assumes cops don't start shooting children armed with Barbie dolls.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:09:32 am
I read one of the cops hurt his ankle and needed treatment. He probably walked backwards. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 09:10:09 am
I read one of the cops hurt his ankle and needed treatment. He probably walked backwards. :P

...into traffic.  He's lucky it was just an ankle.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2014, 09:32:28 am
It's an interesting heritage project, playing tribute to the the Vietnam war, free-fire playground zones.  :cool:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 11:35:22 am
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.

No shit. :D

But, my sympathy to DG and Marty for being so ignorant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on November 24, 2014, 11:44:40 am
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on November 24, 2014, 11:47:09 am
I don't know how to feel that there wasn't even a mention here of the shooting at Florida State University last week, I guess no one but the shooter died so that's good.

I knew right away the shooter wasn't an FSU football player, otherwise the campus police would have never showed up to investigate.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 11:55:44 am
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.

Naw, they should have disabled him. Contrary to DG and Marty's ignorance, cops are trained to disable perps with their service weapon. Just not how they think.

In most instances and contrary to popular belief, patrol officers don't shoot with the intent to kill.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 24, 2014, 12:04:12 pm
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.

Naw, they should have disabled him. Contrary to DG and Marty's ignorance, cops are trained to disable perps with their service weapon. Just not how they think.

In most instances and contrary to popular belief, patrol officers don't shoot with the intent to kill.

Now I'm not a cop either, but I do work with them every single day of the week.

My understanding is that you're splitting hairs here.  No, police do not shoot with the intent to kill, however they do shoot with the intent to stop the assailant - which means hooting at the centre body mass.  Which of course has a very good chance of being lethal.

Marty - police are of course taught a great many forms of non-lethal force.  The use of deadly force is only to be used as a "last resort".  But guess what - a suspect who ignores directions and is reaching for what appears to be a firearm is such a "last resort" situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:05:36 pm
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.

Naw, they should have disabled him. Contrary to DG and Marty's ignorance, cops are trained to disable perps with their service weapon. Just not how they think.

In most instances and contrary to popular belief, patrol officers don't shoot with the intent to kill.

Now I'm not a cop either, but I do work with them every single day of the week.

My understanding is that you're splitting hairs here.  No, police do not shoot with the intent to kill, however they do shoot with the intent to stop the assailant - which means hooting at the centre body mass.  Which of course has a very good chance of being lethal.

Marty - police are of course taught a great many forms of non-lethal force.  The use of deadly force is only to be used as a "last resort".  But guess what - a suspect who ignores directions and is reaching for what appears to be a firearm is such a "last resort" situation.

Yes
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on November 24, 2014, 12:09:10 pm
I don't know how to feel that there wasn't even a mention here of the shooting at Florida State University last week, I guess no one but the shooter died so that's good.

I knew right away the shooter wasn't an FSU football player, otherwise the campus police would have never showed up to investigate.

The morning that happened, I flipped on my phone and saw the headline "3 wounded by shooter at FSU" and the first thought I had was, "Jameis Winston?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on November 24, 2014, 01:46:17 pm
Supposedly this is the BB gun the kid had:

(http://2-ps.googleusercontent.com/h/www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/xbb-gun-575x320.jpg.pagespeed.ic.DDRVN3zFq9.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 24, 2014, 01:51:12 pm
Looks pretty damn real to me. Jesus, what a stupid waste.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 01:57:59 pm
Apparently the kid removed the orange device around the muzzle in order to make it look more real.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 02:06:56 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/22/nyregion/new-york-police-officer-fatally-shoots-brooklyn-man.html

Quote
Officer’s Errant Shot Kills Unarmed Brooklyn Man

Two police officers prepared to enter the pitch-black eighth-floor stairwell of a building in a Brooklyn housing project, one of them with his sidearm drawn. At the same time, a man and his girlfriend, frustrated by a long wait for an elevator, entered the seventh-floor stairwell, 14 steps below. In the darkness, a shot rang out from the officer’s gun, and the 28-year-old man below was struck in the chest and, soon after, fell dead.

The shooting, at 11:15 p.m. on Thursday, invited immediate comparison to the fatal shooting of an unarmed man in Ferguson, Mo. But 12 hours later, just after noon on Friday, the New York police commissioner, William J. Bratton, announced that the shooting was accidental and that the victim, Akai Gurley, had done nothing to provoke a confrontation with the officers.

Indeed, as the investigation continued into Friday night, a leading theory described an instance of simple, yet tragic, clumsiness on the part of the officer. Mr. Gurley was not armed, the police said.

The episode promised to bring scrutiny to a longtime police practice of officers drawing their weapons when patrolling stairwells in housing projects.

The shooting occurred in the Louis H. Pink Houses in the East New York neighborhood. The housing project had been the scene of a recent spate of crimes — there have been two robberies and four assaults in the development in the past month, two homicides in the past year, and a shooting in a nearby lobby last Saturday, Mr. Bratton said.

Additional officers, many new to the Police Department, were assigned to patrol the buildings, including the two officers in the stairwell on Thursday night, who were working an overtime tour.

Having just inspected the roof, the officers prepared to conduct what is known as a vertical patrol, an inspection of a building’s staircases, which tend to be a magnet for criminal activity or quality-of-life nuisances.

Both officers took out their flashlights, and one, Peter Liang, 27, a probationary officer with less than 18 months on the job, drew his sidearm, a 9-millimeter semiautomatic.

Officer Liang is left-handed, and he tried to turn the knob of the door that opens to the stairwell with that hand while also holding the gun, according to a high-ranking police official who was familiar with the investigation and who emphasized that the account could change.

It appears that in turning the knob and pushing the door open, Officer Liang rotated the barrel of the gun down and accidentally fired, the official said. He and the other officer both jumped back into the hallway, and Officer Liang shouted something to the effect that he had accidentally fired his weapon, the official said.

Mr. Gurley had spent the past hours getting his hair braided at a friend’s apartment. :blink: Neighbors said he had posted photos of himself on an online site for models, featuring his tattoos, his clothing and his muscular frame.

He and his girlfriend, Melissa Butler, waited for an elevator on the seventh floor, but it never came, so they opened the door to the dark stairwell instead. An instant later, the shot was fired. Mr. Gurley and Ms. Butler were probably unaware that the shot came from a police officer’s gun.

“The cop didn’t present himself, he just shot him in the chest,” Janice Butler, Ms. Butler’s sister, said. “They didn’t see their face or nothing.”

Mr. Gurley made it two flights down, to the fifth floor, where he collapsed. Melissa Butler called 911 from a lower floor, the official said.

Officer Liang and his partner came upon Mr. Gurley and called in the injury on the police radio, saying it was the result of an accidental discharge, the official said.

Mr. Gurley was taken to Brookdale Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Following protocol, Officer Liang was relieved of his gun and his badge pending an investigation.

Commissioner Bratton called Mr. Gurley “a total innocent” and said the shooting was “an unfortunate accident.” The victim was not engaged in any activity other than trying to walk down the stairs, Mr. Bratton said.

Mayor Bill de Blasio was also quick to offer his condolences to Mr. Gurley’s family. “This is a tragedy,” he said.

About 6:45 p.m. on Friday, the mayor, accompanied by his wife, Chirlane McCray, and Mr. Bratton, arrived at the Red Hook East Houses to visit the home of Mr. Gurley’s domestic partner, Kimberly Michelle Ballinger, 25.

They spent a little more than 10 minutes there and left without making any comment.

Earlier, Mr. Bratton said that whether an officer should draw his weapon while on patrol when there was no clear threat was a matter of discretion.

“There’s not a specific prohibition against taking a firearm out,” he said, adding, “As in all cases, an officer would have to justify the circumstances that required him to or resulted in his unholstering his firearm.”

The president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, Patrick J. Lynch, declined to say anything about the officer, but commented on the conditions of stairwells in projects, including the setting of the shooting.

The Pink Houses are among the most dangerous projects in the city, and their stairwells are the most dangerous places in the projects,” he said. “Dimly lit stairways and dilapidated conditions create fertile ground for violent crime, while the constant presence of illegal firearms creates a dangerous and highly volatile environment for police officers and residents alike.”

The Brooklyn district attorney, Kenneth P. Thompson, issued a statement that questioned the condition of the lighting in the stairwell.

“Many questions must be answered, including whether, as reported, the lights in the hallway were out for a number of days, and how this tragedy actually occurred,” Mr. Thompson said.

Neighbors said darkened stairwells were nothing new in the Pink Houses. “The staircases from eight down are dark,” said Mattie Dubose, a resident. “If you want to walk in them, you need an escort.”

The Police Department is still dealing with the fallout over the death of Eric Garner, a Staten Island man who died after a confrontation with the police in July. The department sought to defuse tension on Friday both by naming the officer in the shooting — an unusual step — and by noting repeatedly that the victim was blameless.

At City Hall, aides to the mayor were well aware of the imminent decision by a grand jury on the police shooting in Ferguson and the charged atmosphere that the death of an unarmed black man can create.

The mayor and Mr. Bratton conferred by telephone several times on Friday morning. Deputy Commissioner Benjamin B. Tucker spoke with the Rev. Al Sharpton about the shooting and the city’s response. The chief of the Police Department’s community affairs bureau, Joanne Jaffe, went to Mr. Gurley’s home in Red Hook, Brooklyn, and was with relatives when his young daughter was told of her father’s death.

Ms. Ballinger, the mother of Mr. Gurley’s young daughter, and his sister, Akisha Pringle, were scheduled to appear with Mr. Sharpton at an event on Saturday.

“She’s got to explain to her 2-year-old old why her father did not pick her up from school today and why he was not home to play with him as is their routine,” Kirsten Foy of the National Action Network, Mr. Sharpton’s organization, said after meeting with the family.

The officer’s future is unclear beyond an expected interview he will give to police superiors. It was not known whether he could face criminal prosecution.

“The cops have tremendous leeway with self-defense cases, but less leeway with a case like this,” said Eugene O’Donnell, a former prosecutor who teaches at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. “A life was lost, and you are going to have to account for it.”

A similar shooting occurred in January 2004, when Officer Richard S. Neri Jr. killed Timothy Stansbury Jr., 19, on a roof at the Louis Armstrong Houses in Brooklyn. A grand jury declined to indict Officer Neri after he gave emotional testimony that he had unintentionally fired; he was startled, he said, when Mr. Stansbury pushed open a rooftop door in a place where drug dealing was rampant.

On Friday night in Dyker Heights, Brooklyn, a next-door neighbor of Officer Liang described him as cautious and helpful. “He wouldn’t mess around or do anything out of the ordinary,” said the neighbor, Ronald Chan, 24.

When Mr. Chan learned about the shooting, he said he was shocked and could not believe someone as cautious as his neighbor could have been involved.

“I think it was an honest mistake, because safety first,” he said. “Why would he do that? It sounds like an accident.”

Honest accident that could happen to everyone, or a rookie who fucked up?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 02:38:50 pm

Quote
The shooting, at 11:15 p.m. on Thursday, invited immediate comparison to the fatal shooting of an unarmed man in Ferguson, Mo. But 12 hours later, just after noon on Friday, the New York police commissioner, William J. Bratton, announced that the shooting was accidental and that the victim, Akai Gurley, had done nothing to provoke a confrontation with the officers.
Indeed, as the investigation continued into Friday night, a leading theory described an instance of simple, yet tragic, clumsiness stupidity on the part of the officer. Mr. Gurley was not armed, the police said.

The episode promised to bring scrutiny to a longtime police practice of officers drawing their weapons when patrolling stairwells in housing projects.

Hmm, was there an expectation for the officer to employ deadly force....doesnt sound like it.

Quote
The shooting occurred in the Louis H. Pink Houses in the East New York neighborhood. The housing project had been the scene of a recent spate of crimes — there have been two robberies and four assaults in the development in the past month, two homicides in the past year, and a shooting in a nearby lobby last Saturday, Mr. Bratton said.

IMO fucking irrelevant.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on November 24, 2014, 02:52:18 pm
The Grand Jury has reached a decision which they will be releasing later today, presumably so that rioters and police have time to get ready.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 04:18:56 pm
Honest accident that could happen to everyone, or a rookie who fucked up?

Like I have said so many times before, there is an erosion of the concept of continuum of force and going straight for the unnecessary brandishing of the firearm, and it is not reinforced enough by immediate supervision.  Twenty years ago, if you fucked up, guess what:  your sergeant's ass got as chewed out as much as yours, and he or she made sure that didn't happen again.  I'm not seeing that level of supervisory control anymore.  You don't have accidental discharges if your weapon is still in your holster.

Quote
Peter Liang, 27, a probationary officer with less than 18 months on the job

He'll be sorry he ever raised his right hand for the job.  And why the fuck is he on his own at only 18 months?  You had your Field Training Officer glued to your ass for the first 2 years here.    Good thing about probationary period is that the department can fire you without going through all the CBA nonsense.

Quote
Mr. Gurley had spent the past hours getting his hair braided at a friend’s apartment. :blink:

What, you got a problem with ethnic hair care, Syt Stahlhelm?  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 04:21:34 pm
The Grand Jury has reached a decision which they will be releasing later today, presumably so that rioters and police have time to get ready.

Should've waited for a blizzard.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 05:20:44 pm
I don't know how to feel that there wasn't even a mention here of the shooting at Florida State University last week, I guess no one but the shooter died so that's good.

I knew right away the shooter wasn't an FSU football player, otherwise the campus police would have never showed up to investigate.

The morning that happened, I flipped on my phone and saw the headline "3 wounded by shooter at FSU" and the first thought I had was, "Jameis Winston?"

Winston would've only hit two to make the spread.   :P


Anyway, friends tried to help the shooter.  Even when they're acting psycho enough for people's Spidey Senses to go, "Hey, this cat ain't right", nobody does anything anyway.


Quote
FSU shooter's friends tried to get help for him months before the shooting
Tampa Bay Times 11/21/14

When she met him in the parking lot, the sight of him jarred her. Gone was the dapper, carefully dressed man who had taken her on dates for most of the past year.

He was gaunt, haggard, disheveled and wild-eyed. He wore a borrowed T-shirt and a pair of too-small running shorts. He was barefoot. He had thrown away his shoes, he told her, because he was sure they were bugged by the cops who were following him.

Standing there in Las Cruces, N.M., Danielle Nixon listened as the man who would open fire in a Florida State University library begged her for the wrong kind of help. Myron May said he needed her to rent him a car, so he could slip out of town unnoticed.

By this point, on Oct. 8 — six weeks before May would walk into the Strozier Library on the FSU campus, level a handgun and start shooting, wounding three — May's friends had tried at least three times to get him the care he desperately needed. Every time, they were told, he didn't qualify for that care.

In interviews with the Tampa Bay Times on Friday, May's friends described their frustrations over the past three months with the area's mental health care system, one that couldn't save May despite desperate pleas from loved ones who watched him dissolve into paranoia before their eyes.

"You have to commit a crime to get the help you need. Why isn't it the reverse?" said Kimberly Snagg, a Houston lawyer who described May as one of her best friends. "This could have been avoided. The entire thing."

•••

Six months into his job as a prosecutor in the Dona Ana County District Attorney's Office in New Mexico, May couldn't concentrate.

The 31-year-old had become so distractible, he told his friends, that he had decided to see a psychologist. He emerged from the appointment with prescriptions for an antidepressant and an attention deficit drug, which he took faithfully until, about three weeks later, he suffered a panic attack at work.

When another attack followed a week later, he returned to his psychologist and had his medication adjusted, said Nixon, a doctor. May was on a combination of Wellbutrin and Vyvanse — drugs that, in rare cases, can cause paranoia.

By late summer, May had begun acting strangely, his friends said. He was worried his neighbors were watching him. He heard them talking about him through the walls of his apartment.

It was alarming to his friends, but it was nothing, they said, compared to what was still to come.

•••

May told his friends that the officers at the Las Cruces Police Department laughed at him when he showed up on the morning of Sept. 7 to make a bizarre report: Someone was watching him through a camera hidden in his apartment. And he was hearing voices coming in through the walls as he bathed.

May left the Police Department that day and went to a shooting range, where friends had gathered for a bachelor party.

As they squeezed off rounds at the targets, May seemed agitated, they recalled. He told them he wasn't sleeping because of his neighbors' constant spying. Their voices were keeping him up at night, he said. What he really wanted was to get a gun and take revenge on them.

He was ready to buy one that day, he said. His friends talked him out of it.

•••

Unsettled now, May's friends contacted his psychologist's office. They said they told her that May was paranoid, that he was hearing voices, and that he had talked about buying a gun and getting even with his neighbors.

The psychologist made an appointment with May, they said, met with him for about an hour and then declared him to be fine. Nixon and the others were frustrated.

Not long after that day, May called a friend, a law enforcement officer at a local agency, sounding paralyzed with fear. May was sure that other shoppers were secretly observing him. He was afraid of what they might do to him. He asked his friend to escort him home.

A day or two later, he voluntarily checked himself into Mesilla Valley Hospital, a mental health center. Finally, his friends thought, he was in a position to get some serious medical care.

•••

He got out four days later. Soon after, on Oct. 5, he was acting more erratic than ever before. Telling no one beforehand, he drove his black Chevy SUV nine hours to Denver. Then he turned around and drove back.

He made frantic phone calls to his friends from the road. The police were on to him, he said. His hotel room in Denver was bugged, so he had to flee. There were black cars following close behind. He would be a millionaire when he brought to justice the crooked cops who were persecuting him. Stopping for food or sleep was not an option, he said. He drove straight through the night.

•••

Responsible for caring for May's Great Dane, Lil' Bit, during one of May's sudden absences, his friends let themselves into his apartment and found a new pill bottle among his prescriptions, they said.

It was Seroquel, a powerful antipsychotic. The prescriber worked at Mesilla Valley Hospital. Together the friends got on the phone with her and laid out the whole story, describing the voices, the cameras, May's fear of persecution, his desire for a gun, his wish to have revenge.

"She listened and then she ended it by saying, you know, 'I can't really do anything,' " Nixon said. " 'He needs to come back on his own.' "

•••

On Oct. 7, two days after his trip to Colorado, May was driving the streets of Dona Ana County. He pulled into a sheriff's substation and dialed Snagg's number. He told her he couldn't take it; he was turning himself in. He went to the desk to surrender, but the woman there told him he wasn't wanted on any charges. Snagg could hear snippets of the conversation through her cellphone. She said she asked May to hand the woman the phone. Snagg said she told the woman that May was a lawyer in the midst of a severe mental breakdown. "I implored her, please do not let him leave," Snagg said. She asked the woman to detain May, to get him some help. "The response was, 'My child has a program that starts in a few minutes, and it's 4:58, and I don't have time.' " Snagg said.

While Snagg was talking to the woman, May got in his SUV and drove away.

•••

That night, May showed up at Nixon's house uninvited. He was rambling incoherently, according to a police report that describes the incident. Nixon told officers with the Las Cruces Police Department she was afraid for May's safety.

The officers told her they would check on him. But they couldn't find him when they arrived. They knocked on the door to apartment 1403, according to their report.

May lived in 1407.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 05:22:21 pm
I'm shocked FSU had a library.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 05:41:26 pm
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.

No shit. :D

But, my sympathy to DG and Marty for being so ignorant.
My sympathy to you for being so dumb. :console:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 06:32:46 pm
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.

No shit. :D

But, my sympathy to DG and Marty for being so ignorant.
My sympathy to you for being so dumb. :console:

Your such a nice guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 07:44:49 pm
About 20 minutes now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2014, 08:15:53 pm
Saw this posted elsewhere, pretty spot on I think. Definitely makes sense to announce this at night if you want to delegitimize the protesters.

Quote
So many reasons that protests are worse-off in the dark. The more I think about it, the worse it seems.

It's harder to document, most cameras see less. It's more attractive to looters, and harder to differentiate between looters and protesters. People are inclined to think of "the good kind of free-speech protest" as happening during the day. Signs and placards aren't as visible.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 08:30:08 pm
Man this is an incredibly thorough intro
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 08:31:32 pm
I'm bored of this.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 08:31:52 pm
Can we just get to the rioting already?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 08:33:21 pm
Meanwhile, in Deseret--

Quote
Deadly police force has claimed more lives in Utah than nearly any other type of homicide in the last five years, according to an analysis by the Salt Lake Tribune.

Law enforcement officers killed 45 people in Utah between 2010 and October 2014, accounting for 15 percent of all homicides during that period. That made police use of force the second most common type of homicide in the state after intimate partner violence, according to the paper’s review of more than 300 homicides.

"The numbers reflect that there could be an issue and it’s going to take a deeper understanding of these shootings," said Chris Gebhardt, a former police officer in both Washington, D.C. and Utah.

Utah prosecutors have deemed all but one of the killings justified, the Tribune found. The single shooting deemed unjustified was the 2012 death of a young woman by a West Valley City officer. Last month, a judge dismissed criminal charges against the officer after finding no evidence that the “conduct was not legally justifiable.”

Ian Adams, spokesman for the Utah Fraternal Order of Police, defended officers’ actions to the Tribune.

"Police are trained and expected to react to deadly threats. As many deadly threats emerge is the exact amount of times police will respond," said Adams, who this summer shot and wounded a man who pointed a fake gun at him. "The onus is on the person being arrested to stop trying to assault and kill police officers and the innocent public.”

While Utah has one of the nation’s lowest violent crime rates, the Tribune examination of FBI statistics found Utah had the nation’s 10th highest rate of reported assaults on police officers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 08:33:58 pm
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Now lets hope they are as careful and professional when it comes to dealing with any fallout.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 08:35:30 pm
Here we go. Shields out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 08:37:59 pm
Here we go. Shields out.

I liked the V for Vendetta guys with the upside down American flags.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 08:39:40 pm
Here we go. Shields out.

I liked the V for Vendetta guys with the upside down American flags.

Those need to be found floating upside down in a river.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 08:43:48 pm
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 08:47:35 pm
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.

I'll hold em down while you beat them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 08:50:50 pm
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Sounds to me, since we have conflicting witness statements, none of them mattered.  A trial would've approached that differently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 08:54:28 pm
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Sounds to me, since we have conflicting witness statements, none of them mattered.  A trial would've approached that differently.

I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

But the main thing for me is that these things get thorough investigations and get treated seriously.  Citizens of the United States being shot dead should be a very serious matter and it seems many times this does not happen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 08:58:40 pm
I'm watching MNF.  Is the police hat guy out demonstrating?  He was my favorite :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on November 24, 2014, 09:00:41 pm
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Sounds to me, since we have conflicting witness statements, none of them mattered.  A trial would've approached that differently.

I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

But the main thing for me is that these things get thorough investigations and get treated seriously.  Citizens of the United States being shot dead should be a very serious matter and it seems many times this does not happen.

I agree.

The problem is the process is never transparent and the cop NEVER get indicted, so it is pretty hard to just trust the system blindly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2014, 09:01:24 pm
I was unaware the testimony conflicted.  I thought his friends didn't see what happened in the car, only what happened out of it.  And AFAIK the friends' testimony wasn't challenged.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:09:03 pm
I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

The part were he said "there were conflicting witness accounts" was kinda where I got that from.    :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:11:06 pm
Hey, is that a Quiznos in Ferguson?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:12:04 pm
I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

The part were he said "there were conflicting witness accounts" was kinda where I got that from.    :D

The impression I didn't get was the 'none of them mattered' part :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:21:27 pm
The impression I didn't get was the 'none of them mattered' part :P

That's what happens with conflicting accounts.  Unfortunately for this case, just like others we've seen, one of the only two people who knows exactly happened is dead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 24, 2014, 09:24:02 pm
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.

I'll hold em down while you beat them.
While you do it I'll explain that he wasn't a terrorist for freedom, but one for an absolutist Catholic monarchy <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 09:57:17 pm
Well in a normal suspected murder the grand jury only hears the best evidence the prosecutor has, nothing that might remotely weaken his case. So it's atypical for the prosecutor to give so much information, typically the reason it's so easy to get an indictment is the prosecution only has to cherry pick enough evidence to show PC and the defense cannot present a defense or even appear before the grand jury unless called to testify.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 10:00:04 pm
I was unaware the testimony conflicted.  I thought his friends didn't see what happened in the car, only what happened out of it.  And AFAIK the friends' testimony wasn't challenged.

You had witnesses who's testimony conflicted with other witnesses and testimony that conflicted with forensic evidence.  For instance some witnesses claim he was shot in the back, but no bullets struck him in the back.  He had only one friend on the scene, and he ran away before the shooting ( he had a warrant out for his arrest and probably had a better idea what would happen when you get stopped by the police 5 minutes after robbing a store).

Keep in mind the threshold for bring charges is lower then that of successfully prosecuting.  There was no case, the police officer acted properly.  Had the struggle gone the other way, Darren Wilson would be just another name on a plaque at the capital memorial for police who died in the line of duty, and Mike Brown would end up at Potosi (that's were Missouri executes people these days).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:00:35 pm
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 10:01:20 pm
Hey, is that a Quiznos in Ferguson?

Not for long!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:03:00 pm
STL Wireless ought to be denied any insurance claims for not having the common sense to board up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 10:04:47 pm
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.

Yup, incredibly irresponsible to make this kind of announcement after dark, risking the safety of both the public and officers.   But as we saw earlier in this saga with their response to the protests, these agencies seem to be a bit dull in the crisis management department.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:05:59 pm
Fox News camera just got knocked out while documenting some hood rat's stolen gin and juice stash.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:06:54 pm
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.

Yup, incredibly irresponsible to make this kind of announcement after dark, risking the safety of both the public and officers.   But as we saw earlier in this saga with their response to the protests, these agencies seem to be a bit dull in the crisis management department.

Yeah.  Don't fault the people looting and rioting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 10:09:47 pm
Yeah.  Don't fault the people looting and rioting.

It is always 100% the people's fault and never even 1% the governments.  I know how it goes "small government" dude.

If looting and rioting is expected why save the trigger until nighttime?  I don't see why that simple question that means there is no fault for looters and rioters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2014, 10:11:23 pm
Well yeah the looting is 100% the looter's fault. How is that even debateable?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 10:12:25 pm
If I was King I can't really imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have rioters massacred with immense brutality.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2014, 10:13:03 pm
Well in a normal suspected murder the grand jury only hears the best evidence the prosecutor has, nothing that might remotely weaken his case. So it's atypical for the prosecutor to give so much information, typically the reason it's so easy to get an indictment is the prosecution only has to cherry pick enough evidence to show PC and the defense cannot present a defense or even appear before the grand jury unless called to testify.
He also normally directs the jury to charge the suspect with a specific crime, the prosecutor just left it up to the Grand Jury. He punted.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 10:15:38 pm
Yeah.  Don't fault the people looting and rioting.

I believe there would be less people looting and rioting, with the opportunity for more effective crowd control, law enforcement, protection of private property and ensuring better officer safety if the announcement had been made at 9:15am instead of 9:15pm.   

Faulting the people in charge of maintaining public safety for not making the appropriate public safety decisions is not the same as absolving people from looting and rioting, you creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on November 24, 2014, 10:16:07 pm
How much would it suck to be on that grand jury?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:21:09 pm
You focus your ire in the oddest places, Seedy.

Anyway I figured all of this would have been avoided after Holder asked for restraint on the part of the evil police :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:39:45 pm
So... is looting a dollar store really worth the effort? :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 24, 2014, 10:41:12 pm
You focus your ire in the oddest places, Seedy.
Not really.  It's a sensible precaution that the people making these decisions should make them in such a way that it minimizes violence.  The people there are looking for an opportunity to commit violent acts.  Don't give it to them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 10:42:18 pm
So... is looting a dollar store really worth the effort? :lol:

Need Treet for Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 10:43:42 pm
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.

Yup, incredibly irresponsible to make this kind of announcement after dark, risking the safety of both the public and officers.   But as we saw earlier in this saga with their response to the protests, these agencies seem to be a bit dull in the crisis management department.

I think they were waiting till schools were out and people had gotten home from work.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 10:45:42 pm
If I was King I can't really imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have rioters massacred with immense brutality.

You would probably end up being shot along with your family in the basement of some house if you were king on the orders of Ide and Money.  I doubt you would be a capable as even Czar Czar Nicholas II.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on November 24, 2014, 10:48:01 pm
Czar Czar Binks?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 10:49:15 pm
If I was King I can't really imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have rioters massacred with immense brutality.

You would probably end up being shot along with your family in the basement of some house if you were king on the orders of Ide and Money.  I doubt you would be a capable as even Czar Czar Nicholas II.

Otto von Antoinette would spirit himself out of Frednecksburg to a comfortable life in exile long before that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 11:06:30 pm
Seedy has the right of it, whatever I am one thing I'm pretty good at is recognizing when I'm in a weak position. I wouldn't do well as a near-modern day absolute monarch, but I can't name many that actually did. But in the pre-Revolutionary era I'd have done fine. I would have definitely seen the writing on the wall long before ole Nicky did and fled for greener pastures with the contents of the Amber Room and other national treasures.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 11:16:04 pm
Seedy has the right of it, whatever I am one thing I'm pretty good at is recognizing when I'm in a weak position. I wouldn't do well as a near-modern day absolute monarch, but I can't name many that actually did. But in the pre-Revolutionary era I'd have done fine. I would have definitely seen the writing on the wall long before ole Nicky did and fled for greener pastures with the contents of the Amber Room and other national treasures.

So that's why you didn't post much of Languish for all those years.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 11:26:14 pm
I don't think I post much now, I think Languish just petered out for me. It had its heyday, now it's much reduced. I also got big into WoW there for a span 4-5 years. I do not believe I was ever in danger of being put to death here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: katmai on November 24, 2014, 11:30:52 pm
What a bunch of morons.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:28:29 am
I don't think I post much now, I think Languish just petered out for me. It had its heyday, now it's much reduced. I also got big into WoW there for a span 4-5 years. I do not believe I was ever in danger of being put to death here.

Man, you just ain't biting tonight. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:44:25 am
My dad is firming on the side of the protesters and said if he still lived out there he'd be on the streets as well.  I imagine they'd hit him with brick and take his wallet.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 01:42:42 am
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.

I'll hold em down while you beat them.
While you do it I'll explain that he wasn't a terrorist for freedom, but one for an absolutist Catholic monarchy <_<

Comic books > 17th century history. :contract:

To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 01:58:53 am
My dad is firming on the side of the protesters and said if he still lived out there he'd be on the streets as well.  I imagine they'd hit him with brick and take his wallet.

It's just the black Friday craze starting earlier this year.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 07:44:42 am
My dad is firming on the side of the protesters and said if he still lived out there he'd be on the streets as well.  I imagine they'd hit him with brick and take his wallet.

It's just the black Friday craze starting earlier this year.
That's racist!  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 25, 2014, 08:05:08 am
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:12:52 am
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

And why shit won't ever change.  Just tune in next time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 08:32:21 am
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

All parties?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 09:39:51 am
Well in a normal suspected murder the grand jury only hears the best evidence the prosecutor has, nothing that might remotely weaken his case. So it's atypical for the prosecutor to give so much information, typically the reason it's so easy to get an indictment is the prosecution only has to cherry pick enough evidence to show PC and the defense cannot present a defense or even appear before the grand jury unless called to testify.

25 days, 60 witnesses , etc. looks like total lack of control of the process.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:40:57 am
Wait 60 witnesses?  That must have been one crowded street.

Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

How much of Fergusen is left this morning?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:48:56 am
Don't know how much is left, but they apparently hit a Panera :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 09:49:44 am
NO BISQUE NO PEACE
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 09:51:19 am
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

All parties?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/heavy-police-presence-in-ferguson-to-ensure-reside,37528/#
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:52:57 am
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

All parties?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/heavy-police-presence-in-ferguson-to-ensure-reside,37528/#

Anyway, the police clearly seemed to be holding back last night.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 09:53:22 am
To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Yeah. But in this scenario Brits are the Hindus. We still burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (and occasionally the Pope - also Putin, Cameron etc.) every year it's because, as a country, we hate Catholics not freedom :P

I'd be equally happy with just locking Anonymous up for being annoying tits and giving succour to Russell Brand :bleeding:

Quote
Comic books > 17th century history. :contract:
No :sleep:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 09:54:12 am
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:54:29 am
Anyway, the police clearly seemed to be holding back last night.

Cooler heads are prevailing right now in the government, they are clearly acting more strategically even if I disagree with the decision of letting it out at night.  Should have been done at 6:30 in the am. 

But they fucked it up pretty thoroughly right after the original event occured. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:54:55 am
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 25, 2014, 09:56:03 am
To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Yeah. But in this scenario Brits are the Hindus. We still burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (and occasionally the Pope - also Putin, Cameron etc.) every year it's because, as a country, we hate Catholics not freedom :P

I'd be equally happy with just locking Anonymous up for being annoying tits and giving succour to Russell Brand :bleeding:

Quote
Comic books > 17th century history. :contract:
No :sleep:

Is this leading to an English Civil War hijack?!  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 09:57:42 am
I can imagine Prince Rupert running them down in the Dollar Tree parking lot.

I just got a boner.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:58:46 am
Man what would have happened if Prince Rupert had returned at Edgehill eh?  That sure would have changed things.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 09:59:18 am
Man what would have happened if Prince Rupert had returned at Edgehill eh?  That sure would have changed things.

I just got another boner.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:59:34 am
Cooler heads are prevailing right now in the government, they are clearly acting more strategically even if I disagree with the decision of letting it out at night.  Should have been done at 6:30 in the am. 

I'm not convinced there was a perfect time to make the announcement.  Make it at 6:30am and you screw up people's commutes.  You'll have some rioting throughout the day and I'd bet by nightfall you'd still have a bunch of burning buildings and cars.  Rioters gonna riot.  Looters gonna loot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 10:00:22 am
To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Yeah. But in this scenario Brits are the Hindus. We still burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (and occasionally the Pope - also Putin, Cameron etc.) every year it's because, as a country, we hate Catholics not freedom :P

I'd be equally happy with just locking Anonymous up for being annoying tits and giving succour to Russell Brand :bleeding:

Quote
Comic books > 17th century history. :contract:
No :sleep:

Is this leading to an English Civil War hijack?!  :D

The English are too well mannered to do a hijack. It would more likely be an English Civil War digression.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:01:09 am
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 10:03:06 am
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch.

All that sodium will kill you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:03:46 am
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch. 

If anybody bothers you just shout 'Justice for Michael!'
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:03:55 am
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch.

You should be used to the concept of years of frustration and pent-up rage from a community that gets no satisfaction, only empty promises and hollow guarantees.  After all, you root for the Bengals.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:09:44 am
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

Quote
Is this leading to an English Civil War hijack?!  :D
The long dreamed of :o
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:13:52 am
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

You don't?  I thought they were a Common Law thing.

Anyway the Grand Jury just sees the evidence the Prosecutor has and decides if there is sufficient evidence to even have a trial.  The guilt or innocence of the accused is not in question so there is no defense or anything.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 10:17:44 am
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:20:36 am
Anyway being on a Grand Jury is a pretty decent gig for Jury Duty.  Not alot of stress you are usually just in a meeting room and prosecuturs file in to give you their stuff and ask that you let them take the accused to trial.  You do this with a simple hand vote and then go back to work.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 25, 2014, 10:21:39 am
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?

The police collect evidence, send it all to the Crown Prosecution Service, they have a rummage and decide whether to prosecute.

US system replace our organisation susceptible to political pressure with one that's vulnerable to public sentiment. Neither seems ideal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 25, 2014, 10:23:35 am
I can imagine Prince Rupert running them down in the Dollar Tree parking lot.

I just got a boner.

You need a modern Cromwell to send those rioters "to Hell or Connacht".  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 10:25:50 am
I can imagine Prince Rupert running them down in the Dollar Tree parking lot.

I just got a boner.

You need a modern Cromwell to send those rioters "to Hell or Connacht".  :D

I'm a Chuck the First man.  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:31:35 am
We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?
What's a preliminary inquiry involve? We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 10:35:59 am
We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).

We call that an arraignment.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on November 25, 2014, 10:36:12 am
Anyway being on a Grand Jury is a pretty decent gig for Jury Duty.  Not alot of stress you are usually just in a meeting room and prosecuturs file in to give you their stuff and ask that you let them take the accused to trial.  You do this with a simple hand vote and then go back to work.

Depends on the jurisdiction.  In some, grand juries are empanelled for month-long terms.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:38:13 am
Anyway being on a Grand Jury is a pretty decent gig for Jury Duty.  Not alot of stress you are usually just in a meeting room and prosecuturs file in to give you their stuff and ask that you let them take the accused to trial.  You do this with a simple hand vote and then go back to work.

Depends on the jurisdiction.  In some, grand juries are empanelled for month-long terms.

Yeah, worked with a guy that was on a grand jury in the city;  had that gig for about 9 months, IIIRC.  Needed every other Monday off.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:38:31 am
We call that an arraignment.
Okay. Yeah here the decision whether or not to prosecute is with the Crown Prosecution Service.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 10:40:24 am
We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?
What's a preliminary inquiry involve? We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).

It's funny to hear you talk, as we use many of the same words, but many different ones.

We have two levels of court - Provincial Court, and Court of Queen's Bench.  IF a matter is summary, or is hybrid and Crown has elected to go by summary conviction, then it goes straight to trial in provincial court.  If proceeded by indictment then defence can elect provincial court judge alone, QB judge alone or QB judge and jury.

If the defence election is QB, then they have the option of requesting a preliminary inquiry.  The preliminary inquiry is for the Crown to demonstrate there is sufficient evidence to warrant having a trial.  Quite frankly in this day and age of disclosure rights I think prelimns are largely a waste of time and money, but they continue to exist.


I should say the names of the courts will vary from province to province - I used Alberta names.  Ontario has General Division and Superior Division courts, while BC has Provincial Court and Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 10:41:31 am
We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).

We call that an arraignment.

An arraignment is merely the process by which someone is formally charged.  WE usually arraign an Accused right before his trial starts (if proceeded by indictment).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:44:05 am
My understanding is that the preliminary hearing here is some time before the trial gets pencilled in. So if the defendant pleads guilty then they get the full discount off their sentence, if they plead guilty at the start of the trial after all of the work and costs that have gone into it then the discount is greatly reduced.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:50:09 am
It's funny to hear you talk, as we use many of the same words, but many different ones.

(http://www.darkmeme.com/wp-content/uploads/memeone-memes/540163433c9b3.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:51:56 am
Wait 60 witnesses?  That must have been one crowded street.

They allowed other witnesses, such as Wilson's supervisor, to tell the grand jury what a great cop he is.  You know, stuff that happens during a trial, not a grand jury.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 25, 2014, 10:56:59 am
They must be having a sale. Buy one OE foty, get one free.
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5676290-4x3-940x705.jpg)

(http://cdn.thewire.com/media/img/upload/wire/2014/08/18/AP29060525462/lead_large.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:03:12 am
Royals fans :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:06:01 am
Royals fans :rolleyes:

:mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:10:22 am
Royals fans :rolleyes:

:mad:

Be mad at him, not me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 11:13:51 am
Some warm weather in Ferguson.  :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:14:50 am
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:34:32 am
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 11:42:13 am
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.

That is what petit (trial) juries are usually used for.

I do get your point and would be inclined to agree if the principle were more generally applied rather than reserved for very particular application.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on November 25, 2014, 11:50:50 am

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/25/237B11EA00000578-0-image-28_1416925401996.jpg)

"Burn this bitch down!"


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:55:18 am
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.

This situation is different and you know it.  This was a planned riot, the rabble was all there ready to rock.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 11:56:54 am
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.

This situation is different and you know it.  This was a planned riot, the rabble was all there ready to rock.

No.  It's not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:57:04 am
Wait 60 witnesses?  That must have been one crowded street.

They allowed other witnesses, such as Wilson's supervisor, to tell the grand jury what a great cop he is.  You know, stuff that happens during a trial, not a grand jury.

What the hell?  What does that have to do with whether or not there was enough evidence to take him to trial?  Ok so maybe it was a highly unorthodox Grand Jury hearing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:57:54 am
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.

This situation is different and you know it.  This was a planned riot, the rabble was all there ready to rock.

No.  It's not.

Yes.  It is.  This thing has been all over social media for months.  These are the usual clowns who show up at every G-8 summit or whatever.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:58:56 am
I do get your point and would be inclined to agree if the principle were more generally applied rather than reserved for very particular application.

Indeed.  It is a pity we have to wait until people are burning down cities to understand why Police shooting people dead is destabilizing to law and order and needs to be seriously addressed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:05:12 pm
Yes.  It is.  This thing has been all over social media for months.  These are the usual clowns who show up at every G-8 summit or whatever.

They were there for the first round of riots, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 12:09:05 pm
What the hell?  What does that have to do with whether or not there was enough evidence to take him to trial?  Ok so maybe it was a highly unorthodox Grand Jury hearing.

It was the perfect Grand Jury, when you already knew what you wanted to achieve with it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:10:04 pm

Yes.  It is.  This thing has been all over social media for months.  These are the usual clowns who show up at every G-8 summit or whatever.

Bullshit.  I'm seeing North County folk there.  People who robbed a liquor store in August are the same guys who robbed the same liquor store last night.  They didn't do it because you took offense at scary cars the cops had.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:11:43 pm
They didn't do it because you took offense at scary cars the cops had.

:lol:

Oh for fucksake Raz.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 12:13:51 pm
Interesting graphic presentation from the WP

Quote
What happened in Ferguson
St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch laid out this scenario for the sequence of events in the shooting of Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, assembled from physical evidence and testimony of dozens of witnesses.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/ferguson-grand-jury-findings/?hpid=z2

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:15:20 pm
They didn't do it because you took offense at scary cars the cops had.

 :lol:

Oh for fucksake Raz.

The "riot because of scary military vehicles", was an absurd argument.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Siege on November 25, 2014, 12:20:48 pm
What scary military vehicles?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:21:03 pm

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/25/237B11EA00000578-0-image-28_1416925401996.jpg)

"Burn this bitch down!"


Oh, that was actually a thing.  Wow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 12:25:46 pm
Angry black people?  *shudder*
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:26:57 pm
What scary military vehicles?

The ones that so enraged the public that they robbed a liquor store.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:36:56 pm
The "riot because of scary military vehicles", was an absurd argument.

Indeed it would have been if anybody had made it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:37:39 pm
What scary military vehicles?

The ones that so enraged the public that they robbed a liquor store.

In Raz's fantasy land in any case.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:39:15 pm
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:40:42 pm
Good news-- Sharpton is on the scene.

RESIST WE MUCH
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 12:45:53 pm
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 

Because no one ever says anything inappropriate when caught up in a swell of emotion?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 12:46:08 pm
Good news-- Sharpton is on the scene.

RESIST WE MUCH

I saw that and wanted to vomit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 12:46:21 pm
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd.

An even angrier black person then.  Gotcha.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 25, 2014, 12:47:12 pm
Good news-- Sharpton is on the scene.

RESIST WE MUCH

He'll calm things down!   
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:48:49 pm
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 

Because no one ever says anything inappropriate when caught up in a swell of emotion?

There's a difference between venting Florida Evans-style and exhorting a crowd to "Burn this bitch down."  Kind of unsettling that you're so willing to give the dude a pass.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 12:52:37 pm
There's a difference between venting Florida Evans-style and exhorting a crowd to "Burn this bitch down."  Kind of unsettling that you're so willing to give the dude a pass.

LOL, Florida Evans.  You're such an unrepentant racist asshole, d.  But at least you keep it consistent.  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 12:53:18 pm
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 

Because no one ever says anything inappropriate when caught up in a swell of emotion?

There's a difference between venting Florida Evans-style and exhorting a crowd to "Burn this bitch down."  Kind of unsettling that you're so willing to give the dude a pass.

If he repeats that phrasing again, then I'd take issue. Having a visceral reaction that involves making violent statements in the heat of the moment? Hardly surprising.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:55:04 pm
What scary military vehicles?

The ones that so enraged the public that they robbed a liquor store.

In Raz's fantasy land in any case.

Well at least you are backing off that position, so I'm happy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:57:03 pm
LOL, Florida Evans.  You're such an unrepentant racist asshole, d.  But at least you keep it consistent.  :lol:

We all remember that poignant episode after James's funeral.  DAMN DAMN DAMN...

And no, I am not racist.  Stop that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:57:49 pm
If he repeats that phrasing again, then I'd take issue. Having a visceral reaction that involves making violent statements in the heat of the moment? Hardly surprising.

I guess you have lower expectations of people than I do.  Agree to disagree, then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 12:58:50 pm
And no, I am not racist.  Stop that.

YOU KNOW WHO TALKS ABOUT RACE?  RACISTS!

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:59:37 pm
Well at least you are backing off that position, so I'm happy.

That was not my position :P

But I am happy they did the Grand Jury investigation.  If only a similar investigation would be done anytime a shooting like this occurs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:02:42 pm
If he repeats that phrasing again, then I'd take issue. Having a visceral reaction that involves making violent statements in the heat of the moment? Hardly surprising.

I guess you have lower expectations of people than I do. 

You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:05:15 pm
You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:

To Spicey the civilian rabble is expected to have pristine conduct while trained professionals can do whatever.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:07:56 pm
You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:

To Spicey the civilian rabble is expected to have pristine conduct while trained professionals can do whatever.

No, for d, that is expected of white civilian rabble.  Black civilian rabble, well, they're just doing what they always do.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:10:33 pm
You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:

What did they do last night?  :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:33:16 pm
Looks like there was a death, after all.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/25/report-body-of-black-male-found-shot-to-death-set-on-fire-near-apartment-complex-where-michael-brown-died/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 01:52:22 pm
Speaking of Sharpton anyone see the  NYT piece on his transformation into an establishment figure and serious, serious issues with the IRS?

(The most striking thing though was just how much weight he lost over the last 20 years! :o)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 01:55:54 pm
We all remember that poignant episode after James's funeral.  DAMN DAMN DAMN...

And no, I am not racist.  Stop that.
When I first saw that scene I laughed.... and then I thought to myself "am I an asshole for laughing at that lady's misery?" :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 01:56:12 pm
Speaking of Sharpton anyone see the  NYT piece on his transformation into an establishment figure and serious, serious issues with the IRS?

(The most striking thing though was just how much weight he lost over the last 20 years! :o)
Didn't he get his stomach stapled?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 25, 2014, 01:57:41 pm
Speaking of Sharpton anyone see the  NYT piece on his transformation into an establishment figure and serious, serious issues with the IRS?

(The most striking thing though was just how much weight he lost over the last 20 years! :o)

Yeah, I saw where it's being reported recently that he owes millions in taxes, something like 4.5 mil.

Then too he's the administration's race policy adviser or some title like that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 01:58:25 pm
he's the administration's race policy adviser
:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 02:09:15 pm
He apparently helped pick the new Attorney General nominee :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 02:12:49 pm
 :wacko:

I'll never understand how Al went legit.  I mean, the dude is such a huckster.  Does he still claim he was ordained when he was five years old or whatever it was? :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 02:15:15 pm
He got an MSNBC show and some people started taking him seriously.  Seedy even pretends to.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 02:21:44 pm
:wacko:

I'll never understand how Al went legit.  I mean, the dude is such a huckster.  Does he still claim he was ordained when he was five years old or whatever it was? :D
Read all about it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/nyregion/questions-about-al-sharptons-finances-accompany-his-rise-in-influence.html?_r=0

I quite like him myself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:22:05 pm
He trafficks in the truth.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 02:29:22 pm
I quite like him myself.

Well, of course. You are always about bombastic, crappy politico types. <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 25, 2014, 02:48:03 pm
He trafficks in the truth.

But he doesn't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 02:49:21 pm
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:55:16 pm
He trafficks in the truth.

But he doesn't.

Sure he does.  Just because, as a cracker, it's truth you don't want to hear doesn't disqualify it.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 02:57:42 pm
He trafficks in the truth.

But he doesn't.

Sure he does.  Just because, as a cracker, it's truth you don't want to hear doesn't disqualify it.



I'm not and I recognize that he doesn't. My receptionist and I were just talking about all he'll do is add more hot air to the situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:02:28 pm
I'm not and I recognize that he doesn't. My receptionist and I were just talking about all he'll do is add more hot air to the situation.

The 2014 version Al Sharpton is a much more subtle influence than the track suited shuckster goofball from the 1980s.  Of course, back in the 1980s, you had to be louder to be heard from Whitey.

Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.  There was nothing inflammatory or baiting about it. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:03:54 pm
I listened to a little on the radio.  That's where I heard the bit about cops supposedly letting Ferguson burn.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 03:04:08 pm
Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.

I think there are better ways to waste my time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:07:46 pm
I listened to a little on the radio.  That's where I heard the bit about cops supposedly letting Ferguson burn.

That was a reporter that said that, you know.  Not one of those damned dirty negroes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:08:22 pm
Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.

I think there are better ways to waste my time.

Like wasting your receptionist's time instead?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:09:33 pm
That was a reporter that said that, you know. 

Now it may have been a somewhat baiting question, but the supposedly aggrieved parties all agreed emphatically.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:10:01 pm
Like wasting your receptionist's time instead?

Small talk promotes cohesiveness.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 25, 2014, 03:15:46 pm
I listened to the Press Conference of the Prosecutor while driving last night.  The first thing that struck me was how poorly timed the announcement was.  Why couldnt he have waited until the next morning?  The next thing that struck me was that he went out of his way to build a case against the person who was shot.  I am not sure why he felt the need to do that.  The issue before the Grand Jury was presumably to consider whether there was sufficient evidence against the police officer to proceed with a criminal trial.  It struck me that if someone wanted to inflame the situation that press conference was a good way of doing it. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 03:22:03 pm
Like wasting your receptionist's time instead?

Small talk promotes cohesiveness.

:)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:22:26 pm
That was a reporter that said that, you know. 

Now it may have been a somewhat baiting question, but the supposedly aggrieved parties all agreed emphatically.

Your posts need more fabric softener.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
I listened to the Press Conference of the Prosecutor while driving last night.  The first thing that struck me was how poorly timed the announcement was.  Why couldnt he have waited until the next morning?  The next thing that struck me was that he went out of his way to build a case against the person who was shot.  I am not sure why he felt the need to do that.  The issue before the Grand Jury was presumably to consider whether there was sufficient evidence against the police officer to proceed with a criminal trial.  It struck me that if someone wanted to inflame the situation that press conference was a good way of doing it.

Now, now, now...it's only the "supposedly aggrieved" parties that are at fault here, CC.  There will be no blaming Whitey today.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 04:58:23 pm
The 2014 version Al Sharpton is a much more subtle influence than the track suited shuckster goofball from the 1980s.  Of course, back in the 1980s, you had to be louder to be heard from Whitey.

Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.  There was nothing inflammatory or baiting about it.

The one in which he bitched about some blogger?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 05:00:55 pm
The 2014 version Al Sharpton is a much more subtle influence than the track suited shuckster goofball from the 1980s.  Of course, back in the 1980s, you had to be louder to be heard from Whitey.

Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.  There was nothing inflammatory or baiting about it.

The one in which he bitched about some blogger?

Hey Yi - I was just looking at your sig line:

Quote
2. Before bets $50 even money that Israel strikes Iran before 11/24/2014.

I think someone owes you $50.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 06:21:06 pm
Somebody takes their arbitration duties very seriously.  :cheers:

Way ahead of you counselor. :smoke:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 06:35:52 pm
I think the big problem is in the United States generally prosecutors decide on their own discretion whether someone should be brought to trial. Unless they are literally trying to railroad a guy for which there is no evidence at all, the prosecutor can then pretty easily get an indictment from a grand jury (in the Federal courts or the roughly 25 or so States that normally use them.)

In this case something special was done that's obviously allowed for under the law but highly irregular. The prosecutor actually made use of a feature of grand juries not normally used--their ability to be given a bunch of random evidence and decide for themselves if any crimes may have been committed, which crimes those were, and what charges to indict on. Normally a prosecutor is going to direct the grand jury to a specific charge, with only his strongest evidence. It creates the perception (possibly true), that the prosecutor was basically unwilling to say he couldn't find sufficient cause for trial so instead he passed it onto a grand jury via a process that normally never happens.

There was obviously enough evidence a drunk prosecutor from Bob's Barber College & Law School could have gotten an indictment. Could a prosecutor have won at trial? Probably not, just based on the stuff we've heard so far. In non-controversial cases in situations like this the prosecutor would decline to prosecute due to the normal operations of the prosecutor's office being geared around "not losing cases." But McCulloch didn't have the stones to stand up as County Prosecutor and let it be known that in his 20+ years experience worth of expertise he didn't have a winnable case, so instead he pushes it off onto the grand jury.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 06:38:30 pm
Yeah, my impression is that grand juries elect not to indict only when the prosecutors doesn't want them to indict.  I think the same thing happened with Tony Stewart's case a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 06:47:35 pm
I forgot that this forum actually has signatures.  I turned them off such a long time ago.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 06:48:16 pm
What the fuck, Seedy?  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 06:49:44 pm
I think it was a good move on the prosecutor's part.  This way he gets all the evidence put on the public record, and angry negroes can't scream that the white man was covering for whitey.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 06:50:34 pm
What the fuck, Seedy?  :mad:

Don't look at me, the Grand Jury did it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 25, 2014, 07:30:36 pm
I think it was a good move on the prosecutor's part.  This way he gets all the evidence put on the public record, and angry negroes can't scream that the white man was covering for whitey.

Not true at all. The unusual way in which this grand jury was run will merely be interperted as a cover up more brazen than usual. At least the cops who beat Rodney king were put on trial, Wilson didn't even have to go through that, when the prosecutor, if he had wished could certainly have convinced a grand jury to indict.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 07:31:29 pm
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 07:43:03 pm
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 07:54:42 pm
Seedy just wants to see Whitey hang.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 07:57:28 pm
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.

Um the governor is getting flack for not sending in the national guard and mostly from the police themselves :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 08:04:03 pm
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.

Um the governor is getting flack for not sending in the national guard and mostly from the police themselves :huh:

Um fine but it's unrelated to what I said.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 08:05:35 pm
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.

Um the governor is getting flack for not sending in the national guard and mostly from the police themselves :huh:

Um fine but it's unrelated to what I said.

How is something directly related to what you said unrelated to what you said? :hmm:

I said the only criticism I had heard was at the Governor for being too slow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:00:52 pm
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 09:04:11 pm
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.

You watch more Sharpton then Seedy does.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 09:05:59 pm
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

I wonder if the grand jury had chosen to indict would there still have been a riot.  I mean, people who show up to a protest with firearms, lighter fluid, and gasoline often have ill intent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 09:11:48 pm
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 25, 2014, 09:33:10 pm
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.

You watch more Sharpton then Seedy does.

So we should trust that derspiess knows the fellow better than Seedy then.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 09:34:33 pm
Wow.  Just wow.  Letting an officer dispose of and process his own evidence, no measurements taken at a shooting scene, no taping of interviews and no photographs taken.  And why the fuck not, it's only a dead negro.

Quote
Unorthodox police procedures emerge in grand jury documents
By Tom Hamburger and John Sullivan
Washington Post


When Ferguson, Mo., police officer Darren Wilson left the scene of the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, the officer returned to the police station unescorted, washed blood off his hands and placed his recently fired service revolver into an evidence bag himself.

Such seemingly un­or­tho­dox forensic practices emerged from the voluminous testimony released in the aftermath of a grand jury decision Monday night not to indict Wilson.

The transcript showed that local officers who interviewed Wilson immediately after the shooting did not tape the conversations and sometimes conducted them with other police personnel present. An investigator with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner’s office testified that he opted not to take measurements at the crime scene.

“I got there, it was self-explanatory what happened,” said the investigator, whose name was not released, in his grand jury testimony. “Somebody shot somebody. There was no question as to any distances or anything of that nature at the time I was there.”

The investigator, described as a 25-year veteran, did not take his own photographs at the scene of the shooting because his camera battery was dead, he said. Instead, he relied on photographs shot by the St. Louis County Police Department.

The medical examiner and Ferguson Police Department did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

When Wilson returned to the police department after the shooting, he was permitted to drive by himself. No one photographed his bloodied hands before he washed up at the station because “there was no photographer available.”

Later, injuries to Wilson’s head caused by punches he said were thrown by Brown were photographed by a local detective at the Fraternal Order of Police building, not at police headquarters.


An FBI agent interviewed by the grand jury said he did tape his interview with Wilson. The agent, who was not identified, said Wilson washed up immediately after the shooting because he was worried about the danger presented by some one else’s blood, not about preserving evidence.

“His concern was not of evidence, but as a biohazard or what possible blood hazards it might attract,” said the agent, who like other witnesses was not identified by name.

At the crime scene, the medical examiner did not see stippling, the residue of gunpowder on clothing that can indicate shots fired at close range. Eventually an autopsy found evidence of stippling.

In the extended interviews, prosecutors do not come across as particularly aggressive or curious. But they do question police procedures on a couple of occasions, including the failure by Ferguson and St. Louis County investigators to tape their interviews with the officer after the shooting.

Why not tape these answers? a detective with St. Louis County was asked. “It is just common practice that we do not,” the detective said.

Prosecutors also asked why Wilson was permitted to handle evidence in the case himself. “He had informed me that after he responded to the police station, he had packaged his weapon and then he directed my attention to an evidence envelope,’’ said the St. Louis County detective. Is it customary for the person who was involved in such an incident “to handle and package their own gun as evidence?” the detective was asked.

Not according to the rules of the St. Louis County Police Department, the detective said. But Ferguson may have had its own rules, the detective said. He was not aware of “any policies or procedures they have in place” on the topic.

“Darren Wilson had told me that he had packaged the weapon and it was currently in that evidence bag,” the detective told the grand jury. “Now, at that point in time I never checked to verify that, it was done later,” the detective said.

The accounts occasionally revealed inconsistencies. For example, two investigators who interviewed Wilson immediately after the incident said Wilson told them only one shot was fired by Wilson from inside the Chevy Tahoe police cruiser.

But in his testimony, Wilson said two shots were fired inside the car, among several misfires.

The shots and misfires preceded the fatal shooting of Brown on the street a few moments later. The shots were fired from the car after Wilson said Brown had reached in to the vehicle, swinging at the officer and grabbing for his revolver.

Wilson described Brown as having the intimidating size of “Hulk Hogan.” At one point, he said, Brown pushed his revolver down toward the floor, eventually forcing the firearm into the officer’s thigh. Wilson said Brown appeared to be trying to squeeze the trigger. Eventually, Wilson described getting free of Brown’s grip and raising his weapon toward his attacker. The first attempts by Wilson to get off a round at his attacker failed, he said, as the gun only clicked without firing a bullet.

Wilson ultimately said he fired two shots inside the vehicle. After one shot fired he noticed shattered glass and saw blood on his hand, an indication, he said, that Brown had been hit.

However, a Ferguson police officer and a detective with the St. Louis County Police said that Wilson told them only shot was fired inside the car. The two officers – one a 38-year veteran of the Ferguson police force and the other a county detective -- were among the first to talk with Wilson after the fatal shooting. Wilson and the other officers said the weapon failed to fire multiple times inside the vehicle.

There was also confusion in the official police testimony about whether Brown was carrying cigarillos at the time of his encounters with Wilson.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 09:39:35 pm
Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.

The governor is a cracker too.

Appointing a Black Avenger special prosecutor suffers from the same drawback as just charging the copper and proceeding to trial: it sets a precedent that street violence affects the workings of the criminal justice system.

Also, Holder already tried to play the "black guy on your side" card and that got him nowhere. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 09:40:41 pm
Mono would be pissed!

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/11/25/more-protests-expected-in-nyc-following-ferguson-grand-jury-decision/

Quote
Protesters Block Lincoln Tunnel, Shut Down FDR Drive Night After Ferguson Decision

Protesters angry about the grand jury decision in Ferguson, Missouri first shut down an entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel during the evening rush Tuesday, then shut down both sides of the Franklin D. Roosevelt East River Drive.

The FDR was shut down in both directions at East 6th Street as of shortly before 9 p.m. as the protesters marched, police said. The eastbound Queens-Midtown Tunnel was also closed because of the protesters, police said.

The throng expressed outrage at the decision not to indict Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.

Joe Biermann reported that as many as 3,000 people marched up the FDR Drive. They later gathered for a protest rally at First Avenue near 42nd Street and the United Nations, and afterward headed back to Times Square for the second time in the evening.

At the rally, someone got on top of a bus shelter and began speaking through a bullhorn as a huge group gathered around.

Protesters also tried to go over the Williamsburg Bridge, but police would not allow them to do so, according to witnesses. Some shoving between protesters and police was also observed.

Protesters did later begin walking over the Manhattan Bridge.

A protester on the East Side of Manhattan was also seen lighting an American flag on fire.

A couple of hours earlier, protesters also marched to the Lincoln Tunnel and attempted to walk through, CBS2 reported. Police blocked the protesters at 41st Street and Eleventh Avenue, and traffic was left at a standstill.
CBS2’s Tony Aiello reported the standoff eventually came to an end and the protesters decided to march north on Eleventh Avenue, and went instead to Father Duffy Square in Times Square. But a driver reported being stuck for half an hour.

Aiello reported on Twitter that protesters were warned three times to get out of th

One man was seen scuffling with police as they tried to take him into custody.

...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 09:46:57 pm
See that's how you riot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 09:49:32 pm

The governor is a cracker too.


Mean son of a bitch.  You ought to see the letters he gets.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 09:50:15 pm
I didn't know anything was happening but my mother just texted to check in. I was like I'm drinking wine and watching Star Trek:TNG. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 09:50:59 pm
I didn't know anything was happening but my mother just texted to check in. I was like I'm drinking wine and watching Star Trek:TNG. :unsure:

Afraid you'd be out there rioting, too?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:52:57 pm
Weirdly there was nothing on campus today.  I guess I should be glad it is Thanksgiving holiday so all the usual activists are on vacation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 09:54:02 pm
I didn't know anything was happening but my mother just texted to check in. I was like I'm drinking wine and watching Star Trek:TNG. :unsure:

Afraid you'd be out there rioting, too?

No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

I've only protested really once and that was a gay protest, so does that even count?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 09:57:47 pm
No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

My Mom used to do stuff like that all the time. 

"I heard there was a shooting."
"That was two counties away, and it was last night."
"I know, I was just worried..."


Quote
I've only protested really once and that was a gay protest, so does that even count?

I've seen gay protests, and if all protests were like that, the world would be a much happier place.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 25, 2014, 09:59:25 pm
Every time someone gets tenderized by a bear up here, I am sure to hear about it from my mom.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:00:27 pm
Every time someone gets tenderized by a bear up here, I am sure to hear about it from my mom.  :P

 :lol: Those poor bears!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:05:02 pm
No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

My Mom used to do stuff like that all the time. 

"I heard there was a shooting."
"That was two counties away, and it was last night."
"I know, I was just worried..."

I'm lucky my mother doesn't hear any of the local stuff. I'd have hell to pay if she heard about when those crazed lesbians got beat down by with a metal pole in that McD's around the corner, or the woman two blocks away that was killed/stuck under a truck when run over on her foot scooter, or just a few blocks away when that gay kid was shot/killed, or the middle of the day shootout with the police...etc. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 26, 2014, 12:13:37 am
No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

My Mom used to do stuff like that all the time. 

"I heard there was a shooting."
"That was two counties away, and it was last night."
"I know, I was just worried..."


Quote
I've only protested really once and that was a gay protest, so does that even count?

I've seen gay protests, and if all protests were like that, the world would be a much happier place.

Jesus, your mother is so much like mine it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 26, 2014, 12:16:02 am
Speaking of gay protests, they are usually peaceful but depending on a place, they can meet with violence from others. I remember there were rocks wheezing by my head at one of the early gay marches in Warsaw.

I stopped going when the ratio of gay protesters to counter-protesters reached about 20:1. Not exciting any more. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 08:40:15 am
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.

You watch more Sharpton then Seedy does.

What can I say?  The man entertains, if often unintentionally.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 09:22:35 am
Speaking of gay protests, they are usually peaceful but depending on a place, they can meet with violence from others. I remember there were rocks wheezing by my head at one of the early gay marches in Warsaw.

I stopped going when the ratio of gay protesters to counter-protesters reached about 20:1. Not exciting any more. :P
If you're looking for a thrill support your brethren in Serbia :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 09:36:42 am
If you're looking for a thrill support your brethren in Serbia :P

What's going on there?  Is Serbia emulating Russia?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 09:40:30 am
If you're looking for a thrill support your brethren in Serbia :P

What's going on there?  Is Serbia emulating Russia?
The Balkans aren't very gay friendly. Bits of Croatia are okay because they're very touristified. But Serbia and Bosnia are pretty conservative.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on November 26, 2014, 10:09:57 am
Quote
The Ferguson Post (https://desmondandmollyjones.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/the-ferguson-post/)

I have been avoiding writing this post because I think I’m going to lose friends by publishing it.

From my Facebook feed it seems that everyone needs to declare their membership in Team Michael Brown or Team Darren Wilson.  Well, you know what? If these are my choices I am choosing Team Absolutely Fucking No One.

Or, rather. I choose Team Equality. Team Respect. Team Empathy. Team Honesty. But not fake “honesty” like, “I don’t see color! I just see people!” or “Sure, sometimes there are bad cops…”  I mean “Team Brutal Fucking Honesty.” And that team requires us to join Team Empathy. You know empathy: the ability and willingness to feel and understand another person’s pain without ever having experienced it yourself. The willingness to believe that such pain exists even though you have never experienced it yourself. The willingness to let go of your sense that “Such things have never happened to me so therefore I do not believe they happen.” The willingness to recognize that the pain exists even if the person expressing it is an imperfect messenger.

Read the rest at the link.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 10:57:19 am
Things in Cincy have been pretty calm, apart from a crowd of mostly hipsters making a lame attempt to emulate what other cities are doing.  That said, I'm staying out of OTR the next several days as a precaution.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 11:01:55 am
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 

Quote
Hundreds of demonstrators turned out in Baltimore to voice frustration and solidarity with protesters in Ferguson, Mo., marching through downtown streets and shutting down the entrance to Interstate 83.

At Morgan State University, students blocked several intersections near campus, forming a giant square at Loch Raven Boulevard and Cold Spring Lane, shouting "No justice, no peace."

Protesters lined Mount Royal Avenue holding black umbrellas near the Maryland Institute College of Art, while someone used black spray paint to write "R.I.P. Michael Brown" on the side of a mobile Baltimore Police command center in South Baltimore.

Police said the demonstrations were mostly peaceful. Hourlong traffic backups caused the most commotion, with officers shutting downtown streets to allow marchers to make their way around the Inner Harbor and City Hall. Demonstrators said they just wanted people to stop and listen.

"That's the only way we're going to be heard," said Davon Perry, 26. "We have to be loud. We're just a scratch. We want to be an annoyance."

Police spokesman Detective Howard Ruganzu reported no arrests and no property damage Tuesday evening. He said one protester was hit by a truck, and officers called an ambulance to the scene. The injuries were not life-threatening.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on November 26, 2014, 11:06:38 am
The righteous people will quell those savages.

/mono
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 11:54:23 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2849736/Church-attended-Michael-Brown-s-family-destroyed-Monday-night-s-protests.html

Quote
Missouri church attended by Michael Brown's father family was one of a dozen or so buildings burned to the ground during Monday night's protests

Pastor Carlton Lee said he believes that white supremacists rather than protesters were to blame for the destruction

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2014, 12:18:03 pm
Appointing a Black Avenger special prosecutor suffers from the same drawback as just charging the copper and proceeding to trial: it sets a precedent that street violence affects the workings of the criminal justice system.

Except that instead they set the even worse precedent that different prosecutorial rules apply when "friendly" law enforcement is in the dock as opposed to ordinary citizen.

This odd GJ process seems to have been an utter fiasco.  It doesn't excuse rioting but it does lend credence to the charge of a fix-up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 12:26:31 pm