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Off the Record / Re: Fitness 2021
« Last post by mongers on Today at 03:26:52 pm »
No one's posted in this thread in nearly two months; I can guess what will be top of some peoples new years resolutions list.  :D

For myself I'm doing very little, including cycling. Though I'm getting some exercise walking/running to catch trains and buses across the West country.

Earlier this week I choose to walk the 4 -5 miles to the bus stop from my brother's place rather than someone giving me a car lift. I was quite please I did the 4.45 miles to the top of the hill in under an hour, 58 minutes to be precise or 4.6 mph.  :)

Though I seem to remember walking up hill is actually easier than walking down the same hill, is that correct?
Off the Record / Re: Out And About.
« Last post by mongers on Today at 03:21:55 pm »
Spending most of my spare time traveling down to the Devon/Cornwall border to visit my rather ill, very old mother; not ideal.  :(
Off the Record / Re: College Football, 2021-22
« Last post by grumbler on Today at 12:13:22 pm »
Another great Hutch moment that I hadn't been aware of:  When Hutch (#97) broke the Michigan single-season sack record in the 2021 Ohio State game, the holder was his father, Chris Hutcheson (#97), who had set it in the 1992 Ohio State game.

I'm a sucker for father-son stories.
Off the Record / Re: Everyday Adventures
« Last post by mongers on Today at 11:23:03 am »
You need to edit it out too, Mongers.

Yes I know, but I had to quote it to poss.get BBs attention; now I've edited it out.
Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Last post by Syt on Today at 11:07:30 am »
So this has been making the rounds where you give some keywords or a phrase, an art style and an AI generates an abstract painting. It's a fun little distraction, so I did some Languish ones:

"Languish Off The Record"

"The Giant Ants of Brest-Litovsk"

"Fuck You, Jaron"

"Incan Torpedo Boats"

(the last one required a bunch of attempts to get something approximate :D )
Off the Record / Re: What are you listening to?
« Last post by Syt on Today at 10:43:41 am »
Unleash The Archers' cover of Northwest Passage still gives me chills:

The Stan Rogers original:
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom
« Last post by Tyr on Today at 10:20:35 am »
I thought you hated the 1970s Local Government Act? :huh:
Not in the slightest. One of thatchers major crimes was in undoing it.
Traditional counties are fine for fluffy culturey stuff but trying to run the modern world on medieval borders is simply stupid.
The same rivers that made rational borders between the rural domains of Anglo Saxon Lords made prime arteries for urban expansion in the modern age.
Off the Record / Re: Everyday Adventures
« Last post by Eddie Teach on Today at 10:19:11 am »
You need to edit it out too, Mongers.
Off the Record / Re: Everyday Adventures
« Last post by DGuller on Today at 10:14:52 am »
Off the Record / Re: UK extends visa rights to 3 million Hong Kongers
« Last post by Sheilbh on Today at 09:56:18 am »
I think there's a huge difference.
One is how negotiations are meant to work- say no to the first offer and get a new offer with compromises to meet your concerns.
The other is the evil undemocratic EU mafia state nonsense.
But the practical effect is the same - multiple votes on the same treaty until you agree. The only change to the treaty was the removal of the commitment to shrink the number of Commissioners (which isn't great). Otherwise Ireland got more non-binding assurances on abortion (now irrelevant), taxation (query if that's still in place) and neutrality. They were pretty minimal - and that's understandable I don't think the EU could function if you had 27 renegotiations every time an agreed treaty came into difficult with ratification.

Again the stuff about the EU is not a uniquely British spin - it was common in the discourse in Ireland. I think there was a strong element of not wanting to put Ireland's place in the EU at risk and the context of that is the first referendum was in the summer of 2008 before Lehman, the second was in October 2009 and I think the desire for stability/a status quo vote was a huge part of the shift, understandably.

I would still argue that though there was the stream of ongoing union reforms et al that was British things would not have blown up so much were it not for the economic collapse of the early 70s, the battle against inflation, etc.... just as today we are still feeling 2008's fallout.
I think the early 70s still had an impact for sure. But the issue was that there hadn't been union reform and there was significant and growing union militancy - a lot of the old cold war union bosses were retiring which was part of it. I think we forget that there were also proper Marxists/hard left in left circles in Britain at that time who genuinely thought the seventies was a crisis in capitalism and one more push would help deliver socialism. There were even some who welcomed Thatcher winning because they were thinking a hard-line neo-liberal would accelerate the crisis - needless to say they were wrong.

There were problems with the unions. But they weren't THE problem.
Ultimately it was bad timing with things coming to this critical period of change being needed on union law right as the global financial crisis kicked Britain particularly hard.
Its all interlinked and I really don't think the Yom Kippur/BW aspect gets the attention it deserves as the core of the problem with the simple version just being "It was the unions that ruined Britain".
I don't think they ruined Britain but I think closed shop unions and union militancy was basically extracting a rent on the British economy and blocking change - they were to the 70s what NIMBY landlords and home owners are now (they also need to be smashed if they refuse sensible reforms).

And you think these long term trends were Brexit related?
That the north finally woke up to regional inequality being a massive problem was the fault of the EU?- the organisation that recognises and seeks to fix this as one of its key goals - rather than skillfull campaigning in figuring out what people care about and then attaching arguments about that to an unrelated issue?
No of course not but I don't think that's the way anything works in politics or history. Humans are not logical so it doesn't happen that x issue only causes y solution which is linked to that issue. Long term problems and long term trends very often produce unexpected and unrelated outcomes because they squeeze into the opportunities for change that they have. A lot of politics, in my view, is taking those opportunities for your cause and trying to catch the wave of those, in this case, long term frustrations. I think the Leave campaign were more skilful with that but it's the long-term shifts in attitudes that matter. A campaign doesn't create support, it can only harness it.

Just checked up.
It sounds like a soft brexit to me. Primary goal is retaining the advantages of the single market and customs union. It seemed to me a Swiss sort of setup was where they were going.
The section on immigration: "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union." That means hard Brexit and leaving the single market.

"Retaining the advantages of the single market and customs union" is not the same as staying in them. So they wanted to end free movement but get all the benefits of the single market and customs union without the obligations. As I say Labour's position has always been (in reality) hard Brexit or (in their imagination) cakeism. The only area I've ever seen cakeism has been with Labour - I think the Tories have always acknowledged that they want to end free movement, which means leaving the single market and there are consequences.

The brexiters themselves are succesfully able to flip the it was/wasn't about immigration switch almost at whim. Doesn't the primary official version remain that it was about sovereignty?
Maybe - but objectively we all know it was about immigration. All of the evidence and polling since on why people voted Leave back that up - I think sovereignty was important for why many Leave leaders went that way, but again elite and popular opinion don't always align.

Plus I'd rather just have a democratic UK and then no more referenda ever (well, OK, if somewhere wants independence they can do it). With a democratic country and the fascists taking their seats in parliament then the paint drinkers can't argue they weren't listened to.
Of course I'd say those reforms would probably, in my view, require a referendum :lol: :P
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