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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:25:14 PM

Title: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:25:14 PM
Almost-official info regarding our new Constitution (you never know with these guys. They change their minds faster than it takes Tim to post a new thread)

-official name of the country will be "Magyarország" (Hungary) and not Magyar Köztársaság (Republic of Hungary) like it is now.
-indirectly, it will ban gay marriage, as it will define marriage as a thing between a mand and a woman (and something to be protected)
-it will limit the amount of loans the government can take, much like Poland does
-despite talks of the opposite, the limits on the Constitutional Court will remain. Basically they can't protest about anything but "human dignity" regarding new laws
-it will ban state contracts with offshore companies

As the comedy department, the Preambulum (is that also the english spelling?) will be renamed Statement of Faith or something like that, and it will begin like our anthem (which was a poem written 150 years ago, and pretended to quote a preacher from the 16th century): "God, bless the Hungarians"
And at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"


Ah, and a couple of weeks ago, a big announcement was made about a package of various reforms (austerity is a word to be avoided at all costs) which ended up being extremely lukewarm, and basically only contained loose deadlines for the various areas where spending cuts must be made.
But! The english release of the supposedly same plan contains much more detailed informations! The bastards think that in the age of the Internet they can feed totally diferent shit at home and abroad, and get away with it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 09, 2011, 01:27:52 PM
So Arabs have the balls to get rid of ridiculous regimes but Hungarians do not? :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:31:26 PM
Oh and an other hillarity which is an excellent showcase of how these guys operate.

The government proposed to rename our international airport, which is now called Ferihegy Airport ("Ferihegy" is the geopgraphical location of the airport).
They would rather want it be called "Budapest Ferenc Liszt International Airport"

There is a kind of state office or whatever which can throw back important place-namings such as this. They did just that with this, and said it should be "Ferenc Liszt International Airport, Ferihegy Budapest".

The government's answer: they will reduce the office's headcount and curb their rights.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: DGuller on March 09, 2011, 01:37:48 PM
Hungarian people are not ready for democracy.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on March 09, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:25:14 PM
-official name of the country will be "Magyarország" (Hungary) and not Magyar Köztársaság (Republic of Hungary) like it is now.

The hapsburgs must be creaming their pants as we speak.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
Was the ban on gay marriage some sort of concession to the religious people in the country?  I wasn't aware Hungarians were religious in any great degree anymore.  Not like the Poles, at least.

And it's "preamble."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
Was the ban on gay marriage some sort of concession to the religious people in the country?  I wasn't aware Hungarians were religious in any great degree anymore.  Not like the Poles, at least.

And it's "preamble."

Ah, preamble, right.

Well I honestly cant tell the impact of religiousness, because it has roughly the same symptoms as general ignorance and vulnerability to blatant populism, which we have in spades. So its hard to see how much of the plebs is actually religious.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
Was the ban on gay marriage some sort of concession to the religious people in the country?  I wasn't aware Hungarians were religious in any great degree anymore.  Not like the Poles, at least.

And it's "preamble."

Ah, preamble, right.

Well I honestly cant tell the impact of religiousness, because it has roughly the same symptoms as general ignorance and vulnerability to blatant populism, which we have in spades. So its hard to see how much of the plebs is actually religious.

if that court can deal with thingies infringing on human dignity in new laws, and since the outlawing (even indirect) of gay marriage would be new laws maybe the court should go there and deal with it. See what the goverment does. if they act in the way we'd expect them to act you can expect another EU-wide stink.
Soon enough Hungary will be like Kazynski-poland: a smelly turd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 03:04:38 PM
I guess I don't get how they would be anti-gay marriage, yet not religious.  Is it just a macho "we hate fags" kind of thing that isn't a religious imperative?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:23:20 PM
Doesn't Hungary already have gay civil unions, though? So will this be affected or is this more like "ok, we did that but that's as far as we are willing to move"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:24:17 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 03:04:38 PM
I guess I don't get how they would be anti-gay marriage, yet not religious.  Is it just a macho "we hate fags" kind of thing that isn't a religious imperative?

Nazis and communists weren't big on homosexuality either. It's something to do with precious bodily fluids and whatnot. It's a pretty common stance to take for nationalist regimes (and Hungary is one).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: DontSayBanana on March 09, 2011, 06:24:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
if that court can deal with thingies infringing on human dignity in new laws, and since the outlawing (even indirect) of gay marriage would be new laws maybe the court should go there and deal with it. See what the goverment does. if they act in the way we'd expect them to act you can expect another EU-wide stink.
Soon enough Hungary will be like Kazynski-poland: a smelly turd.

What do you mean, "will be?" :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:27:11 PM
Quote-it will ban state contracts with offshore companies

What do they mean by that? Do they mean like tax havens or any company that is not incorporated in Hungary? If the latter, it's not only ridiculous but illegal under EU laws.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on March 09, 2011, 06:38:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D

Cripplefight!!!!!1111111oneoeneoneoe
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
Why would Hungary release its internal government stuff in English?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:39:51 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
Why would Hungary release its internal government stuff in English?
Because investors speak English, and Hungary is utterly dependent on foreign cash.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 08:43:04 PM
I figured it was something like that, or some sort of EU requirement.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
You can't get kicked out of the EU, or else it would already have happened.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2011, 02:32:38 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
You can't get kicked out of the EU, or else it would already have happened.

You can under Lisbon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 02:39:42 AM
What do you have to do to get kicked out?  Genocide?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Slargos on March 10, 2011, 02:55:10 AM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 02:39:42 AM
What do you have to do to get kicked out?  Genocide?

Elect the "wrong" political party.

As for the topic, I don't see the problem with legislating what is in essence a moral and good position. We should not be afraid of morality legislation as long as we aren't satanists and criminals.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 03:15:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on March 10, 2011, 02:55:10 AM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 02:39:42 AM
What do you have to do to get kicked out?  Genocide?

Elect the "wrong" political party.

Jobbik?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Slargos on March 10, 2011, 03:17:55 AM
Haider.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 10, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 10, 2011, 02:32:38 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
You can't get kicked out of the EU, or else it would already have happened.
You can under Lisbon.
What's the mechanism then?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on March 10, 2011, 09:30:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
That sounds more :frog: to me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2011, 08:07:51 AM
Oh and other people seem to have heard what I did but could not believe: the PM said (IIRC after dissing the EU as an oppressive organization that "they (not-defined foreigners who "disrespect" us) should give us respect, because nazism and communism was not invented by Hungarians!"

Can you figure out, which country he meant? :P

If he wasnt my country's PM, I would find this awesomely funny.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 16, 2011, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.
Calling the Hungarian Prime Minister the leader of the EU is overstating matters just a bit, don't you think?  Even if he holds the presidency, no one would ever follow him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2011, 08:58:36 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 16, 2011, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.
Calling the Hungarian Prime Minister the leader of the EU is overstating matters just a bit, don't you think?  Even if he holds the presidency, no one would ever follow him.

But nominally he does hold the presidency.

This is the same as if Languish admins would be happily trolling away random shit in the threads.

Oh wait...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 16, 2011, 02:09:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 16, 2011, 08:07:51 AM
Oh and other people seem to have heard what I did but could not believe: the PM said (IIRC after dissing the EU as an oppressive organization that "they (not-defined foreigners who "disrespect" us) should give us respect, because nazism and communism was not invented by Hungarians!"

Can you figure out, which country he meant? :P

If he wasnt my country's PM, I would find this awesomely funny.

What is crazy isn't so much that he is the EU president, but that in 40 years when Hungary is dragged into the 1st world by the EU, anyone who digs through old quotes like this is going to think he was insane.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 16, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.

Hungary applied and was granted admission into the Austrian and Soviet empires?  That was generous of Vienna and Moscow to let them in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 16, 2011, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 16, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.

Hungary applied and was granted admission into the Austrian and Soviet empires?  That was generous of Vienna and Moscow to let them in.

It kind of did, actually--especially the austrian one.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 17, 2011, 04:30:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 16, 2011, 02:25:58 PM

It kind of did, actually--especially the austrian one.

I think I was getting Hungary confused with Romania at the end of WWII.  :blush:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
lol, more embarassing trivia from our national  holiday.

The actual historical day's focal point was a young poet, Petofi, who was quite a liberal guy. He was already a known poet back then but raised to total fame on the 15th of March 1848, as he mobilized the youth of Budapest that day to rise up.

So anyway, he wrote a somewhat lengty poem the next day, praising the results of their revolution.
As part of the official celebration this Tuesday, this poem was performed by a woman.

Except that, she left out about third of the poem. Surprise surprise, that part was the fanboyish happy ravings over the importance of the censorship-free press they achieved, plus the closing part mentioning Napoleon's glory (as a thing to be not favorized over the prior day's glory)

Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 17, 2011, 02:13:51 PM
That's tragic and comic in about equal measures.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 17, 2011, 02:25:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?

Communist states did stuff like that all the time during the Soviet Empire.  I remember the East German being arrested for quoting Rosa Luxemburg in Luxemburg square...he had a sign saying "freedom is the freedom to dissent" or something similar.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on March 17, 2011, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
lol, more embarassing trivia from our national  holiday.

The actual historical day's focal point was a young poet, Petofi, who was quite a liberal guy. He was already a known poet back then but raised to total fame on the 15th of March 1848, as he mobilized the youth of Budapest that day to rise up.

So anyway, he wrote a somewhat lengty poem the next day, praising the results of their revolution.
As part of the official celebration this Tuesday, this poem was performed by a woman.

Except that, she left out about third of the poem. Surprise surprise, that part was the fanboyish happy ravings over the importance of the censorship-free press they achieved, plus the closing part mentioning Napoleon's glory (as a thing to be not favorized over the prior day's glory)

Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?
Heh... I'm half expecting one of the next national rebellions to occur in Hungary! After all your nation went through dealing with, and against, Communist Totalitarianism, I'd expect higher expectations and loftier goals than this mess your politicians are putting you into.    :bowler:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 17, 2011, 03:04:14 PM
I found out recently that the Hungarian Fahdiz party is allied with the GOP.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
The planned new constitution will be presented to the EU today.

But they still try the old trick: they left out the less EU-friendly parts from the translation (like giving voting rights for the Hungarians living accross the border, or lifelong prison sentences), and they completely left out the preamble with those ridicoulous archaic shits in it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 30, 2011, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 17, 2011, 02:25:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?

Communist states did stuff like that all the time during the Soviet Empire.  I remember the East German being arrested for quoting Rosa Luxemburg in Luxemburg square...he had a sign saying "freedom is the freedom to dissent" or something similar.

The difference is communist states had much better (and usable) repression apparatus and the ultimate threat of Soviet intervention if people got too uppity.

In countries like Hungary (or Poland under PiS) that are part of the EU, with people having access to the internet and being able to travel freely abroad, such attempts are a temporary annoyance that look rather farcical in retrospect.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 30, 2011, 02:30:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 29, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
The planned new constitution will be presented to the EU today.

But they still try the old trick: they left out the less EU-friendly parts from the translation (like giving voting rights for the Hungarians living accross the border, or lifelong prison sentences), and they completely left out the preamble with those ridicoulous archaic shits in it.

Does that really work? Will no one they're presenting it to get their own translation done?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 02:31:48 AM
Quote from: Jacob on March 30, 2011, 02:30:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 29, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
The planned new constitution will be presented to the EU today.

But they still try the old trick: they left out the less EU-friendly parts from the translation (like giving voting rights for the Hungarians living accross the border, or lifelong prison sentences), and they completely left out the preamble with those ridicoulous archaic shits in it.

Does that really work? Will no one they're presenting it to get their own translation done?
Thats what makes it exceptionally stupid
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
A fresh modification-proposal to the new constitution would have the Constitutional Court work based on not just the constitution, but also on the so called "cornerstone laws" ie. the laws needing 2/3rd majority.

In other words, the new way is: 2/3rd laws = articles of the constitution

There is one immedaite reason we know why this is needed: a new religion law is in works which will stop the equailty between churches, and favourize the historical religions in regards to state funds, and would make the creation of new religions (which was of course a great, great tax evasion tool, so its not just negative) much much harder.

But needless to say a lof of the country's life is / will be handled by 2/3rd laws, basically rendering the Const. Court entirely meaningless and devoid of any power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Liep on March 30, 2011, 06:20:35 AM
I will be going to Budapest in about two weeks.. will I be: safe?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:35:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on March 30, 2011, 06:20:35 AM
I will be going to Budapest in about two weeks.. will I be: safe?

:lol:

Sure. I dont expect riots to begin for several years at least
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: DGuller on March 30, 2011, 08:22:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:35:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on March 30, 2011, 06:20:35 AM
I will be going to Budapest in about two weeks.. will I be: safe?

:lol:

Sure. I dont expect riots to begin for several years at least
What about summary executions?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 31, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
and favourize the historical religions

Like Islam?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 31, 2011, 11:17:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 31, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Like Islam?

History starts in 1699.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 08, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
After all this it should come as no surprise that the state news agency has been pulled under tight control by the governing forces, several months ago.

They did sink to a new low just recently, however.

The major voice of criticism toward Orban and his medieval laws in the EU has been Daniel Cohn-Bendit, the green leftie guy.

Apparently, a decade ago they tried to finish him off with accusations of pedophilia due to his book written in 1975.

To "counter"  his current criticism, this accusation has been brought back by government circles. Well, and of course, "Cohn" is as jew-sounding as you can get around here, so its not like he is not an easy target for populist dismissal.

So, this guy was on a press conference last Friday. If you watched the state TV's news about that, you could see that their reporter asked him about the pedophile charges, then Cohn Bendit immediately rushed out of the conference.

However, if you watch the full footage of the conference, you can see that he did answer the question (condemning the practice of digging this decade-old shit out to discredit him), and then HALF AN HOUR LATER, he ends the press conference to reac his plane, not giving time for the Hungarian state-TV reporter to ask him about the media law - condemning EP decision.

Not only censorship, but manipulating the video feed. Damn.

BTW, apparently (I did not hear it), the initial news about this Cohn fellow was so offensive in the state radio (about a month ago) that they had it read out by a trainee, because none of the regulars agreed to read it. About the same time, a long time news anchor left the state TV, my guess is that the two are related.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 08, 2011, 05:16:36 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 31, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
and favourize the historical religions

Like Islam?

Islam is history indeed :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 08:45:03 AM
There are two kinds of payments into the pension system in Hungary.

10% goes off your nominal wage. And your employer also pays 24% of your nominal wage (but not deducting this from it - in practice, little difference it makes of course. It still counts to the money you cost to your employer, yet you never see a dime from it).
Before this year, the 10% went to your private fund, the 24% went to the state fund, and you would have received pension from both.


At the very start of this year, the little more the active workforce of 3 million people, including me, faced the government's threat: you either go back to the state pension entirely, or if you stay private, you would still have your employer pay the 24%, but you would not receive the right for a state pension payment for it.

Only a hundred thousand of us called the obvious bluff and stayed. It was obvious because the present pension system has been an enormous strain on the state, on the long run it was bound to change.

Altough not yet voted on, the plan for this change has been leaked:
Instead of sinking your 10%+24% into the black void of the gross pension budget, everyone will get an individual account (you already had that on your private fund account, obviously). But, only the payments of the 10% will be registered there. The 24% will go to financing of the existing pensions, or whatever the rap is.
And your pension will be determined by the amount of money on this account, and your age and stuff.

In other words, it will be EXACTLY the setup they threatened us with, EXCEPT that there is no talk of interest, like you had with your private fund account (and it was pretty sweet, too).


What can I say to the 3 million poor bastards who were bullied into folding their hand?  :nelson:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on July 04, 2011, 09:27:54 AM
I believe that if our government ever tried to touch my savings/retirement plan via any other method than inflation, I would resort to not-quite-legal activities.

I am amazed and disappointed that Hungary isn't up in arms about this stuff.  Then I remember they voted for this.

What's Fidesz's approval?  80%?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 09:34:09 AM
Less than 50% nowadays.

And sadly the public's take on private property is a bit odd even by European standards.  :hmm:

But the general sentiment regarding the pension nationalization scheme was "I don't want this, but they will take away 2/3rd of my pension payment if I don't do it". And of course they will end up with the 2/3rd taken regardless.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.

Well, I am not sure where they will draw the transition line, but there will be plenty to finance from that 24%: the people already on various forms of pensions. That's quite a lot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 03:40:35 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 08:45:03 AM
There are two kinds of payments into the pension system in Hungary.

10% goes off your nominal wage. And your employer also pays 24% of your nominal wage (but not deducting this from it - in practice, little difference it makes of course. It still counts to the money you cost to your employer, yet you never see a dime from it).
Before this year, the 10% went to your private fund, the 24% went to the state fund, and you would have received pension from both.


At the very start of this year, the little more the active workforce of 3 million people, including me, faced the government's threat: you either go back to the state pension entirely, or if you stay private, you would still have your employer pay the 24%, but you would not receive the right for a state pension payment for it.

Only a hundred thousand of us called the obvious bluff and stayed. It was obvious because the present pension system has been an enormous strain on the state, on the long run it was bound to change.

Altough not yet voted on, the plan for this change has been leaked:
Instead of sinking your 10%+24% into the black void of the gross pension budget, everyone will get an individual account (you already had that on your private fund account, obviously). But, only the payments of the 10% will be registered there. The 24% will go to financing of the existing pensions, or whatever the rap is.
And your pension will be determined by the amount of money on this account, and your age and stuff.

In other words, it will be EXACTLY the setup they threatened us with, EXCEPT that there is no talk of interest, like you had with your private fund account (and it was pretty sweet, too).


What can I say to the 3 million poor bastards who were bullied into folding their hand?  :nelson:

Why is the pension system so stretched? In the US, the taxes are something like 6.2% by the employee and 6.2% by the employer. I'm guessing the benefits are relatively generous relative to what you paid in?

I'm also not sure why you won't get a state pension. If your 24% are going to the current retirees, when you retire couldn't you draw on the 24% being paid by current workers?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
It looks like they might be trying to transition to a Chilean-style quasi-private pension.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 04:14:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 03:40:35 PM
Why is the pension system so stretched? In the US, the taxes are something like 6.2% by the employee and 6.2% by the employer. I'm guessing the benefits are relatively generous relative to what you paid in?

I'm also not sure why you won't get a state pension. If your 24% are going to the current retirees, when you retire couldn't you draw on the 24% being paid by current workers?


Well first of all, the current demographic trend of the country is just disastrous, and our equivalent of the Baby Boomers (a few years later generation in our case) is yet to hit retirement age.

Yes, also the pension system has been somewhat generous, but only in the light that AFAIK the communist government(s) just pissed the pension payments of their time away merrily like they did with every other penny the could find, so by all intents and purposes the democratic governments took over a pension system which was already running but from general state budget.

And ever since the pension budget has been a great tool to buy votes. We had a 13th month pension going for many years, and in the 2006 campaign there were actual debates between the parties on a 14th month pension payment as well, whereas in fact the 13th one alone made the whole thing leak money all over the place.

And moreover, in the early 90s, it seemed like a grand idea to "evacuate" a lot of jobless people into "disability pensions", which has stayed to be a reliable escape route for many citizens who saw no hope for reentering the job market. A bribe to the local doctor and you were set for a reduced pension until you reached retirement age.

The current government, to their credit, is trying to stop this practice.

And of course there is the matter of policemen, firefighters, soldiers, miners, and some other professions getting early full retirement.
There has been a lot of debate lately about these, after the government announced that they would just basically stop paying this to current and future (early-)retiree policemen and firefighters.
IIRC they eased up a bit following repeated demonstrations, but the principle remains the same.

And I can't really blame them, the current system has to go sooner or later. But their communication has been abysmal, and their approach haphazard and cruel.


So actually, all things considered, if what I told in my post will indeed be the new plan for pensions, it will be a surprisingly honest move from this government. They could postpone this stuff well after the next election. Maybe they are sure they will stay long enough to see such a draconian system pay off.

However, thinking about it, I do have some concern. You see, the plan says that people who went back to the state system will have their former private balance credited to their brand new individual state account. That's nice, except that (insane amount) of money is being spent away like there is no tomorrow.
So in a way the government WILL postpone this problem for decades, when the current converts to the state system will be pensioners and will be supposed to get their pension from a pile of money that was spent in the early 2010s.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:00 PM
Tamas, so it sounds as though the 24% is just going to become another part of tax revenues (used in the short term to cover the current pension system)? You would think that by the time you retire most of the current pensioners would be dead and you could receive a pension from the 24%.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
It looks like they might be trying to transition to a Chilean-style quasi-private pension.

Tamas, is this right? You will now only get that 10% which you put in, which you can manage to some degree?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 04, 2011, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.

You have to remember that most Eastern Bloc countries have pretty much bankrupt pension systems for people who worked most of their lives through the communist era.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 01:41:49 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
It looks like they might be trying to transition to a Chilean-style quasi-private pension.

Tamas, is this right? You will now only get that 10% which you put in, which you can manage to some degree?

You have had some control over your account in the private funds. Namely you could choose, each year, between a conservative, an intermediate, and a "growth" portfolio. Even the latter had to have like 30% of it's money in Hungarian state bonds though. But I have been in it of course and it's been rather nice.

There is no talk of anything like that for the new state pension system. What we know right now is that they'll just sit on the money as it will pile up. My guess is that of course they will buy their own bonds with it though, so they can use it, and shield the gathering funds from inflation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 01:46:54 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:00 PM
Tamas, so it sounds as though the 24% is just going to become another part of tax revenues (used in the short term to cover the current pension system)? You would think that by the time you retire most of the current pensioners would be dead and you could receive a pension from the 24%.

Yes, the 24% appears to become just an other tax revenue. Well, actually, this proposed plan calls for attempting to switch 10% of it to the pension payment done by the individual taxpayer (so eventually they would want to have 20% payment into one's pension account, and 14% into the big void of the budget), but it was described only as a possibility.

As for the dead pensioners, IIRC current trend is that there will be about 3 inactives to be supported by each active by the time I get old.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 01:48:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 04, 2011, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.

You have to remember that most Eastern Bloc countries have pretty much bankrupt pension systems for people who worked most of their lives through the communist era.

Yeah I mentioned this also. The payments toward pension in the communist era were spent on normal budgetary expenses. Yay worker's paradise!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 02:07:10 AM
In other news, it was promised that punishments according to the new media law would only start from 1st of July, and the authority promptly launched an investigation of the homepage of the most vicious (and dumb) leftie newspaper, because "a citizen" filed a complaint because of a blog comment insulting the President.

While since then a dignitary from the authority stated that they have no right to sanction such comments, almost all the major political blogs I have been following have disabled their comment sections, replacing it with a facebook link, to force conversations there.

Great.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 08:20:33 AM
Last 16 months, until yesterday, Hungarian government: "IMF is the evöl! We have conducted successful freedom fight, IMF is out of the country! We are teh radical revolutionizers of modern economics. We need no leeching IMF bankers"

Last two weeks: two bond-sale fails completely. No buyers. The sale on this week was "successful" Some were bought on 8% interest.

Yesterday afternoon, Finance Minister: "we are making a deal with the IMF"
Later that afternoon, IMF: "uhm, what? We have a bunch of guys in there right now but they are not deal-makers. But okay, we will send some negotiators over to see what's up"
This morning, government: "the deal will be signed start of next year, the EU will also be involved in it"
This morning, EU: "say what?"

Not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 09:07:25 AM
:console: Is the opposition getting their act together at least?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 09:07:25 AM
:console: Is the opposition getting their act together at least?

No, the controversial former socialist PM, Gyurcsany, seceded and formed his own miniscule party from other defectors. The government cockblocked these MPs from forming a new faction in Parlaiment though so that cuts back on their frontpage time. Too bad, because while no saints or saviors, they have at least left behind the fuckin' Old Guard of the communist era in their original party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 09:21:06 AM
Will Fidesz at least lose their majority? Coalition could be good for them.

I've always kind of liked what I've read about Gyurcsany, even the lying comment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
Too bad, because while no saints or saviors, they have at least left behind the fuckin' Old Guard of the communist era in their original party.

It has been 22 years.  That Old Guard must really be old now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 10:02:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
Too bad, because while no saints or saviors, they have at least left behind the fuckin' Old Guard of the communist era in their original party.

It has been 22 years.  That Old Guard must really be old now.

ok, the  current ones werent first line then, but they have their philosophy in conducting politics.

And no, Fidesz still has 2/3rd and I can't see anything sort of a revolution taking that from them.

I kinda liked Gyurcsany too but instead of leaving when even his own party blocked him, he instead retreated from the reform attempts and tried to buy off said old guard. Fuck that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 12:18:21 PM
I think what describes the country's mood is that I hear about, and know, more and more people who go abroad.

Sure, due to my work and hobbies I know mostly people who speak at lest English in some level, but the rising trend cannot be ignored.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PDH on November 18, 2011, 01:28:20 PM
Even the beets can't keep them at home :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: PDH on November 18, 2011, 01:28:20 PM
Even the beets can't keep them at home :(

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.blogter.hu%2Fuser_files%2F195083%2Fthe_dark_knight_joker.jpg&hash=cc814c374090530ee7ec4f6a332b9cbe41e4b97f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 06:14:42 AM
Moody's has downgraded Hungary to junk.

Beside them being quite late, as I did that around 3 years ago, our government was not slow to again make a fool out of itself itnernationally, expressing "confusion" since "the economy has been performing great" and thus they can only "regard the downgrade as part of the speculative attacks against Hungary".

And that comes from yesterday, when the Finance Ministry announced they would handle the dismal state of our currency as a matter of national security, intend to "Investigate" who or what is responsible for "the selling".

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.cheezburger.com%2Fcompletestore%2F2010%2F5%2F26%2F129193762900667636.jpg&hash=1be23783a9754aeec94147aa32d26ef86a92d4ee)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2011, 06:40:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 06:14:42 AMBeside them being quite late, as I did that around 3 years ago, our government was not slow to again make a fool out of itself itnernationally, expressing "confusion" since "the economy has been performing great" and thus they can only "regard the downgrade as part of the speculative attacks against Hungary".
...Wow :console: :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 25, 2011, 06:42:22 AM
Where do I sign up for the attack on Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 08:04:51 AM
Damn you Fahdiz!  Why did you do this to Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.

I thought the Hungarians were pro-Empire for the most part.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 09:22:07 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.

I thought the Hungarians were pro-Empire for the most part.

for the last 50 years part, yes. The 500 before that? Not so much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on November 25, 2011, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.
I thought the Hungarians were pro-Empire for the most part.
They were pro-Kingdom of Hungary, which is a little different.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:35:21 AM
The Austrian thing is kinda complicated.  I think you guys could forgive me for not fully understanding it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 25, 2011, 10:31:22 AM
I heartily recommend people watch "Radetzky March" (the b/w movie, not the newer one) if you want to watch the true swan song of the Habsburg empire.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 25, 2011, 11:16:45 AM
Swan song?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on November 25, 2011, 12:57:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks...

What's wrong with paprika?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 02:03:59 PM
The PM, to showcase his concern and love no doubt, called a meeting with economists friendly to him, which was held this afternoon.

The Finance Minister held a press conference to brief the press on it. His main points were:
-A new "growth plan" is needed, as well as cooperation with the IM and the EU
-GDP growth forecast to next year must be lowered to 0.5-1%

He choosed to ignore the trivial topic of Moody's downgrade, but of course he was asked about it.
He replied that the experts agreed that the "fundamentals are strong" and "something was behind this downgrade" and "there are maneuvers against the country".
Which is of course -in his opinion- completely unfair since the government has kept, and will keep, the country among the best.
On a repeated question he confirmed: "we are well above average"

The "new growth plan" was mentioned as a new idea here, altough this was a rhetoric of the PM in London, two weeks ago. The grand plan is that this new plan shall keep us ahead of the EU average in terms of growth. I guess we will resurrect Stanahov's spirit or something.

He also calls for a "new alliance" between the government and the banks in the country. I wonder what that means. They have been screwing the banks over left and right, to the extent that the people I talk to are starting to be reluctant and wary of keeping their savings in banks.

And they still keep to the story that they are negotiating with the IMF for a loan they will never ever actually take. They just want a "safety net" and "will be able to finance the country from the market". Said market traded the hungarian bonds on 9-10% this morning.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Actually I think S&P said they may upgrade our rating if we pull off the promised cuts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 04:03:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Actually I think S&P said they may upgrade our rating if we pull off the promised cuts.

If I tried hard enough, I bet I could get a position in my comp's Polish office  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on November 25, 2011, 04:05:50 PM
Fleeing to Poland for the good life?

Times are hard  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 26, 2011, 05:06:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 04:03:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Actually I think S&P said they may upgrade our rating if we pull off the promised cuts.

If I tried hard enough, I bet I could get a position in my comp's Polish office  :hmm:

bring beets ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 27, 2011, 04:56:07 AM
Actually, we may experience a slump in 2012 (perhaps not an outright recession, but definitely a slow down of growth). The zloty is weakened because of the euro turmoil, and we will suffer if Germany (our chief customer) reduces consumption.

The old/new government is promising far reaching reforms but it's about to be seen how much they will deliver.

At least the M&A market is busy for now as many international financial institutions are forced to sell their Polish subsidiaries (which are frequently in much better position than their parents) to finance the bailouts they received. :shifty:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 08, 2011, 04:55:24 AM
Breaking: it was thought that the Minister of National Development would have a press conference about the initial stages of our negotiations with the IMF which he was appointed to lead, but instead he announced his resignation.
Not good.

IIRC, two days ago he made a comment on the "irresponsible" declarations from the Finance Minister (who is a bafoon and is ruining the country with his inept dumbass assfuckery). So I guess that was enough to force him out of office. The FM is so high up the PM's ass you can't even see the guy. So far, everybody who said a non-positive word about him somewhere were fired.

EDIT: apparently, he will keep his role as lead negotiator with the IMF.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2011, 03:27:23 AM
Let's recap the pension situation quickly:

A year ago, the government decided that all payments toward the private pension accounts would be transferred to the state budget instead, for 14 months A few weeks later, they presented the people with a coercion:
they can "protect their pension" by "returning to the safe state pension system". Or, they are free to stay in the private pension scheme, but then while their employers would keep paying the equivalent of 24% of their wage to the state pension system like they always did, they would not receive a single penny of pension from the state after that, since they would "remove themselves from national solidarity"

Out of the 3 million private pension payers, a whooping hundred thousand remained in the private system, including me. But of course my account gained no new funds as all of it was sent to the budget. I supposedly got one year worth of "service time" out of it, but that's totally useless unless I have at least 20. The accumulation of this service time after my 24% is what have been removed from me by the way, as punishment from opposing the government's plans.

Fast forward to yesterday: it has been announced, that the pension payments from the remaining 100 000 private pensioners will be "redirected" to the state budged in 2012 as well, and for 2013 "for sure".
And, the bill to have it "redirected" indefinetly has been drafted. An interesting thing about that bill is that it does not mention any compensation to us - if it stays that way, it will be just stolen from us and that's it.


In other words, the private pension funds will have enough of this shit and close, transferring my considerable savings to the state.

This a disgrace. Once again my disgust with the system and my country, where this communist shit can be done without masses protesting on the street, is just about complete.

These pension savings, and I mean the full sum of the 3 million people's, were the only remaining long term reserves of the economy, and the population. They managed to spend almost all of it in a year and still has us near collapse. Finishing off us remainers, plus setting up a world-record high VAT and some other extra taxes will allow them to avoid cutting spending for an other year, but then what?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 16, 2011, 03:36:13 AM
That's how democracy works. The lazy classes take your money.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2011, 08:06:34 AM
aaand, this morning, the delegation of the EU and IMF packed up and left Budapest in the middle of the negotiations.

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
The Economist blogged on this:
QuoteDemocracy in Hungary
Slip-sliding away

Dec 19th 2011, 17:47 by A.L.B | BUDAPEST

GYÖRGY MATOLCSY, Hungary's economy minister, wanted a war with the International Monetary Fund, and now he has got one.

Officials from the fund and the European Union have broken off preliminary talks with the Hungarian government over a financial safety net for the country. Why? Because the parliament, where the ruling Fidesz party has a two-thirds majority, has accelerated plans to change the management of the central bank and to expand membership of the monetary council, which sets interest rates.

MPs are also considering a new rule to fix tax and debt policies within the constitution. As a "cardinal law" it would require a two-thirds majority to change, thus limiting future governments' room for manoeuvre.

The new legislation could "undermine the independence of the central bank", said Amadeo Altafaj-Tardio, the EU's monetary-affairs spokesman. The IMF echoed these sentiments, stating that an independent central bank is "one of the cornerstones of sound economic management".

The planned law would allow the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to nominate a third vice-governor to the board of the central bank. At the same time Fidesz MPs have proposed merging the central bank with the financial regulator to create a new body.

András Simor, the central-bank governor, described the proposed third vice-governor as a "political commissar" and said the new laws were a step on the road to the "final elimination" of the bank's independence. Government supporters point out that Ferenc Gyurcsany, the former Socialist prime minister, also interfered with the running of the bank and enlarged the monetary council.

Mr Matolcsy, meanwhile, is unbowed. He told Hír TV, a pro-government channel, that the government will continue to push the law through parliament, although he said the opinions of the European Central Bank would be taken into account. There is no reason, he says, to fear for the independence of the central bank. Negotiations will resume in January.

Fidesz allies have now been appointed to the presidency, the State Audit Office, the State Prosecutor, the National Media Authority, the new fiscal council and the new National Courts Authority, among others. Officials say that party backgrounds are irrelevant and that office-holders will exercise their mandates independently. Democracy in Hungary, they claim, is safe.

Opposition politicians, international watchdogs, the EU and the United States disagree. They argue that the government's attempt to limit the independence of the central bank near-completes Fidesz's steady undermining of Hungary's formerly independent institutions and its removal of the checks and balances found in most European democracies.

An overwhelming victory at the polls, which Fidesz won last year, does not, say Western officials, give the party a mandate for a long-term (the new appointees will hold office for between nine and 12 years) takeover of legislative and executive functions. Government officials have not explained why it seems that only Fidesz allies can be trusted to exercise their mandates independently.

Party leaders struggled to account for the abrupt departure of the IMF-EU delegation last week. János Lázár, head of the Fidesz parliamentary grouping, hit on one possible explanation. It would be perfectly understandable, he said, if officials "wanted to go home for Christmas and wait for little Jesus there, rather than in Budapest".

Wags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2011, 04:58:42 PM
QuoteWags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.

Hungary needs funnier wags. :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2011, 04:58:42 PM
QuoteWags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.

Hungary needs funnier wags. :mellow:

Actually, that quoted part is not an exaggeration. Sure, sometimes the PM has an idea at the end of the week prior to the one described there, but the general flow is the same. :P

To make all that smoother, the governing party has used two main tools in Parlaiment:
-propose bills as a single MP's proposal rather than the government itself - a lot of mandatory checks and consultations can be skipped this way. Basically every single law has been proposed like this
-schedule important laws to late night sessions - you minimize own voting manpower required, minimize opposition voices, and voter attention to all those. Not many people will be watching live Parlaiment sessions in the telly past 10PM.

Regarding the latter, recently the opposition parties coordinated to fuck them over (maybe it was about the education bill, not sure). They used each and every chance to delay the process, so the bill became a law only around 4AM in the morning. :lol: Kudos to them, but of course adjustments to parlaimentary process and government handling of these has been made to avoid this happening again, AFAIK.


Now, on the matter of us flipping the IMF and EU off, it appears that Barroso personally wrote a letter to Orban.

A leading online news site published parts of it in an article (as a translation). In return, the government spokeperson basically flat-out declined the quoted contents. So the journalist in question has started blogging the letter, word for word.

In it, Barroso asks, borderline demands as I see, that the government stops with their almost-ready (or already accepted? Can't keep up with their pace to be honest) law radically reforming our central bank, by giving much more government oversight over it.

Local educated guesses are that this is being done for two reasons: first, that the prez of the central bank has been rather vocal about his dissaproval of the government's careless rampage through our economy, and secondly, the central bank has amasssed a considerable reserve of euros. Mostly because when we got THIS close to bankrupcy during the heydays of the 2008 crisis, a lack of euro reserves contributed to that greatly.
Now, with the credit dry up and economic stagnation in Europe, the national budget is in a critical state even after the pension nationalization of early this year. And since the government just refuses austerity (how could a country run without more than 50% GDP redistribution plus a healthy dose of regular deficit spending, right?), they simply NEED to grab that euro reserve if we fall out with the IMF, and they'll probably need to fall back on it even if get IMF aid.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:46:00 AM
I download this morning's International Herald Tribune and what's on the first page? An article about the slow motion coup in Hungary.

And they are right. :weep:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 22, 2011, 02:48:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:46:00 AM
I download this morning's International Herald Tribune and what's on the first page? An article about the slow motion coup in Hungary.

And they are right. :weep:
Get out!  The UK's nice at the minute....
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?

Well we have conformist nazis in suits who have their private army of skinheads on the side, and we have nazis who do stuff like putting up town name displays in "ancient Hungarian runes" and do a weird mix of paganist fetishry and Christianity, and all other sorts of lunacy which would make most Tea Baggers in the States look positively sane.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 03:12:01 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
The Economist blogged on this:
QuoteDemocracy in Hungary
Slip-sliding away

Dec 19th 2011, 17:47 by A.L.B | BUDAPEST

GYÖRGY MATOLCSY, Hungary's economy minister, wanted a war with the International Monetary Fund, and now he has got one.

Officials from the fund and the European Union have broken off preliminary talks with the Hungarian government over a financial safety net for the country. Why? Because the parliament, where the ruling Fidesz party has a two-thirds majority, has accelerated plans to change the management of the central bank and to expand membership of the monetary council, which sets interest rates.

MPs are also considering a new rule to fix tax and debt policies within the constitution. As a "cardinal law" it would require a two-thirds majority to change, thus limiting future governments' room for manoeuvre.

The new legislation could "undermine the independence of the central bank", said Amadeo Altafaj-Tardio, the EU's monetary-affairs spokesman. The IMF echoed these sentiments, stating that an independent central bank is "one of the cornerstones of sound economic management".

The planned law would allow the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to nominate a third vice-governor to the board of the central bank. At the same time Fidesz MPs have proposed merging the central bank with the financial regulator to create a new body.

András Simor, the central-bank governor, described the proposed third vice-governor as a "political commissar" and said the new laws were a step on the road to the "final elimination" of the bank's independence. Government supporters point out that Ferenc Gyurcsany, the former Socialist prime minister, also interfered with the running of the bank and enlarged the monetary council.

Mr Matolcsy, meanwhile, is unbowed. He told Hír TV, a pro-government channel, that the government will continue to push the law through parliament, although he said the opinions of the European Central Bank would be taken into account. There is no reason, he says, to fear for the independence of the central bank. Negotiations will resume in January.

Fidesz allies have now been appointed to the presidency, the State Audit Office, the State Prosecutor, the National Media Authority, the new fiscal council and the new National Courts Authority, among others. Officials say that party backgrounds are irrelevant and that office-holders will exercise their mandates independently. Democracy in Hungary, they claim, is safe.

Opposition politicians, international watchdogs, the EU and the United States disagree. They argue that the government's attempt to limit the independence of the central bank near-completes Fidesz's steady undermining of Hungary's formerly independent institutions and its removal of the checks and balances found in most European democracies.

An overwhelming victory at the polls, which Fidesz won last year, does not, say Western officials, give the party a mandate for a long-term (the new appointees will hold office for between nine and 12 years) takeover of legislative and executive functions. Government officials have not explained why it seems that only Fidesz allies can be trusted to exercise their mandates independently.

Party leaders struggled to account for the abrupt departure of the IMF-EU delegation last week. János Lázár, head of the Fidesz parliamentary grouping, hit on one possible explanation. It would be perfectly understandable, he said, if officials "wanted to go home for Christmas and wait for little Jesus there, rather than in Budapest".

Wags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Wow what a shithole. The only concern is that it paints the whole region with a negative brush.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?

Well we have conformist nazis in suits who have their private army of skinheads on the side, and we have nazis who do stuff like putting up town name displays in "ancient Hungarian runes" and do a weird mix of paganist fetishry and Christianity, and all other sorts of lunacy which would make most Tea Baggers in the States look positively sane.

What the fuck happened with Hungarians? I thought you people were smarter.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 03:34:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?

Well we have conformist nazis in suits who have their private army of skinheads on the side, and we have nazis who do stuff like putting up town name displays in "ancient Hungarian runes" and do a weird mix of paganist fetishry and Christianity, and all other sorts of lunacy which would make most Tea Baggers in the States look positively sane.

What the fuck happened with Hungarians? I thought you people were smarter.

meh. That's what happened.

Latest polls show that the number of people who would not vote in the elections if they were tomorrow is staggering, but of those would surely go and vote, Jobbik (the nazis) have 25%
So if people still cared for politics, they would be nothing more than a fringe minority. But apathy and general depression about the future is just about complete, so just like the Tea Party or the Occupiers, they can make a lot of noise by being the only really active political force on the population's level.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:16:59 AM
This week was a new record in the law-making blitzkrieg Sheilb's article mentioned. They managed to put on schedule for today a bill without a name  :lol: They only named it last evening. (it's about them churches).

Speaking of the church-law, it shows how closely the Constitutional Court and the government works together now: out of the blue, the previous version of this law was cancelled, a day or two before the Const. Court filed several complaints about it.

Also today, the nationalization of the tobacco trade will take place - 20 or 30 years concessions will have to be bought from the state if you will want to sell tobacco products. Good thing, this guildification worked very well for Greece on the long run, as I hear.
The nominal reason for this is of course to PROTECT TEH CHILDREN, but the new law containing the nationalization has ZERO new rules regarding minors, compared to the previous law regulating tobacco sale.

yay!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Oh, and nationalization:
couple of weeks ago, the state announced a very generous buying offer on the stocks of a big (and quite successful) Hungarian company which produces trucks and other construction and industrial machinery, called Raba.
No clear explanation on why state ownership of this private company is necessary, but for a hefty sum of taxpayer money, the state now controls it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Oh, and nationalization:
couple of weeks ago, the state announced a very generous buying offer on the stocks of a big (and quite successful) Hungarian company which produces trucks and other construction and industrial machinery, called Raba.
No clear explanation on why state ownership of this private company is necessary, but for a hefty sum of taxpayer money, the state now controls it.

Duh. They need trucks to be able to ship all the Jews, gypsies and homos to the camps. Railroads are not what they used to be in the golden era.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 22, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Oh, and nationalization:
couple of weeks ago, the state announced a very generous buying offer on the stocks of a big (and quite successful) Hungarian company which produces trucks and other construction and industrial machinery, called Raba.
No clear explanation on why state ownership of this private company is necessary, but for a hefty sum of taxpayer money, the state now controls it.
Duh. They need trucks to be able to ship all the Jews, gypsies and homos to the camps. Railroads are not what they used to be in the golden era.
Maybe they'll ship you, too?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on December 22, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
Seriously a pole playing the concentration camp card? Half of poland was on the waiting list hoping to get a chance to help the nazi's out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
An other day in new revolutionarized Hungary:

-some important votes today: finalization of the pension-nationalization, nationalization of the shop-on-mobile systems (srsly), and the "stabilization act" with various stuff included which pissed the EU off
-our PM answered Barroso that the critisized laws WILL be enacted as they are "integral ammendments" to the new constitution which will go live 1st of January
-the hyspter green LMP party held a protest, by chanining themselves to the parking entrance of Parlaiment. Our former socialist PM Gyurcsany managed to hack the event by appearing there, before the police decided to just arrest the lot, including him. Later they were released
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 23, 2011, 09:28:44 AM
I'm so glad we have this thread.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2011, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
-the hyspter green LMP party

Hipster gypsies?  :hmm:

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 23, 2011, 09:28:44 AM
I'm so glad we have this thread.

I am sorry, but I'll keep reporting this Monty Python act we call a government :P

Let us, for example, see the good patriotic work done by the christian-democractic wing of the ruling "parties" today (the christian-democracts are a virtual party maintained for who knows why by FIDESZ, but probably to maximize parlaimentary seat gains in elections):

Law on families:
The family is "not primarily a biological, but a social construct", and the "basic buildingstone" of Hungarian society. It consist of a husband, a wife, and children, but "cross-generational" relationships between grandparents and children are also important.
Subsidies for families will not be based on wealth, but will be granted universally. Media outlets will have to "respect the institution of marriage" in their broadcasts. From this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".

Law on the national flag and heraldry:
There will be a National Heraldry Committee which will review the local heraldries of counties, cities, and towns for correctness. International fairs and events will have to have the cultural minsiter's permission to show the national flag, same goes for showing it on products. Private citizens are free to wave it around to "show their national identity" however.


Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:41:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2011, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
-the hyspter green LMP party

Hipster gypsies?  :hmm:

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on December 23, 2011, 12:20:37 PM
Sounds like a bunch of shit, Tamas. My sympathies :console:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on December 23, 2011, 12:27:41 PM
Why can't Fahdiz just leave poor Tamas alone?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 23, 2011, 12:33:14 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
Law on families:
The family is "not primarily a biological, but a social construct", and the "basic buildingstone" of Hungarian society. It consist of a husband, a wife, and children, but "cross-generational" relationships between grandparents and children are also important.
Subsidies for families will not be based on wealth, but will be granted universally. Media outlets will have to "respect the institution of marriage" in their broadcasts.
Are they banning broadcasts about homosexuals, or just same sex marriage?

QuoteFrom this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".
What's that supposed to mean?

QuoteLaw on the national flag and heraldry:
There will be a National Heraldry Committee which will review the local heraldries of counties, cities, and towns for correctness. International fairs and events will have to have the cultural minsiter's permission to show the national flag, same goes for showing it on products. Private citizens are free to wave it around to "show their national identity" however.
That sounds relatively harmless (if useless)?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2011, 01:47:58 PM
The Economist has another depressing blog.  Again how true is this? 
QuoteBudapest backwash

Dec 23rd 2011, 12:45 by A.L.B. | BUDAPEST

THE NEWS was not a surprise and nor did it show much Christmas spirit. But it still came as a shock: Klubrádió, the enormously popular liberal talk radio station, has lost its frequency and will have to close by March 2012. The Media Council, all of whose members were nominated by the ruling right-wing Fidesz party after opposition parties boycotted it, and whose chairwoman, Annamária Szalai is a former Fidesz MP, has awarded the frequency to Autórádió, an obscure new company.

András Arató, Klubrádió's managing director, said he will contest the decision in court, as the station has a moral obligation to its half million listeners and 10,000 financial supporters. Karola Kiricsi, the council's spokeswoman, refused to explain to journalists the precise criteria under which the decision was taken and reportedly left the press conference after answering three questions. The Council maintains that it is an autonomous body, independent of government, and has assigned the state-owned frequencies in accordance to legal procedures. 

Either way, the decision will fuel the growing international alarm about the government's relentless centralisation of power, its packing of formerly independent institutions with party allies and will boost rising domestic anger over media freedom. Thousands of protestors gathered outside Hungarian Radio headquarters on Thursday afternoon. Meanwhile, a group of current and former state television editors are on hunger strike after Zoltán Lomnici, a former chief justice, was airbrushed out of footage shown on state television. The clumsy editing brought back memories, all too familiar to this part of the world, of Soviet manipulation of photographs and history. 

One editor has since been sacked and another reassigned, but the hunger strike continues. The strikers say that the airbrush episode is symptomatic of widespread news manipulation and political pressure from the government. Norbert Fekete, a former editor at the evening news programme told Reuters: "We'd get clear instructions about expectations of any given story, what it must suggest. A recurring theme was the pressure to cast a negative light on previous Socialist governments. In this regime only good things happen." 

Both the government and the content provider for state news channels strongly deny the claims. The government fully respects the independence of the public media and rejects all allegations of influence, said a spokesman. But not everything is going the government's way. To the surprise of many, the Constitutional Court threw out several key provisions of the Media Law and drastically curbed the powers of the Media Council, removing its power to scrutinise print and online content for contravening human rights, human dignity and privacy. The law, the court ruled, "unconstitutionally limited freedom of the written press". The court also strengthened journalists' protection of sources, saying they may only be forced to divulge them under strict legal procedures. 

The Court also threw out a new law that regulates religious organisations and vetoed provisions of the criminal code that would the allow the chief prosecutor to decide which court would hear a particular trial, allow preliminary detention for five days without charges and allow a suspect to be held for two days without the right to contact a lawyer. Government officials said they will work with the court to find constitutional solutions to the problems. Meanwhile, MPs from LMP, the green-liberal opposition party, newly boosted by flattering coverage in the New York Times have chained themselves to the gates of Parliament to protest about the parlous state of Hungarian democracy. It may be down, but it's not certainly not out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 24, 2011, 02:40:41 PM
It is true, except that Klubrádió is left-leaning, I wouldn't call it liberal in the classical sense.
But cleary it has been the only clearly opposition-voiced country-wide medium. The two major private TV stations has long retreated into simply not covering (apart from as news reporting) political issues at all.

The Const. Court decisions were mildly encouraging but:
-the media law thing is, well, it's not like it stopping the media authority from handling Klubrádió's frequency to a ridicously low-funded newbie company, now, does it?
-the religious law's new form only mildly differs from what was sent back by the Const. Court

The Court's true and final test comes next week, when they will have the pension nationalization issue on the agenda for the very last time. Due to the new Constitution, all pending cases will be nullified come 1st of January, so if they wish, they can continue biding their time on this issue to avoid any tough decisions one way or the other. Like they did since February.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2011, 03:54:59 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 23, 2011, 12:33:14 PM

QuoteFrom this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".


Yeah, I'm really curious what this is suppose to mean.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 24, 2011, 05:38:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 24, 2011, 03:54:59 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 23, 2011, 12:33:14 PM

QuoteFrom this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".


Yeah, I'm really curious what this is suppose to mean.

just like everyone else  :lol: That's just a point to illustrate the absurdity of the law.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 26, 2011, 05:25:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
Seriously a pole playing the concentration camp card? Half of poland was on the waiting list hoping to get a chance to help the nazi's out.

At least we didn't have a government that allied itself with the nazis, like Hungary. And many Poles were shipped off to concentration camps too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 26, 2011, 05:26:51 AM
QuoteThe family is "not primarily a biological, but a social construct"

Doesn't that actually undermine it? Saying that something is a "social construct" has usually been the first step to deconstruct something. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2011, 08:02:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 26, 2011, 05:25:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
Seriously a pole playing the concentration camp card? Half of poland was on the waiting list hoping to get a chance to help the nazi's out.

At least we didn't have a government that allied itself with the nazis, like Hungary. And many Poles were shipped off to concentration camps too.
Yeah, because Poles are fucking stupid.  You were in-between the Soviets and the Nazis, so you allied with fucking France.  There is no great moral value in not allying with the Nazis.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 04:26:30 AM
Latest developments from Magyaristan (the Turks actually call Hungary that, rather prophetic, or they knew it all along):

-Constitutional Court didn't do anything regarding the pension nationalization. Fuck'em, I will NOT sign voluntary return to the state system, altough I would get the net profits of my account if I did that. Fuck me if I will be bribed by communists. Fuck this coward communist country as well. Fucking sheeps, the lot of them.

-Some months ago a thousand residents (that's how you also call your noob doctors?) decided to protest the abysmal state of healthcare and their salary in particular, and wrote letters of resignation coming into effect at 1st of January, hoping to force the government into doing something.
This morning's news is that the PM has ordered the relevant minister to do plans on how the healthcare system will function with a thousand doctors removed from it.
This is, btw, similar to what was already happening in Slovakia.

-A week or two ago, the state TV news blurred out a dignitary during a reporting (he is/was some kind of high-end prosecutor or whatever, doesn't matter much), when he was seen in the background during an interview done at some cross-borders Hungarian charity thingie.
It turned out that he has been like an arch rival of one of the new main guys at the TV station, ever since the TV guy didn't receive a position this other bloke got. So since he took his TV office, this prosecutor dude has been verboten to appear in any reporting.

During the ensuing scandal, two lowbie editors were fired, but two other works started a hunger strike in front of the TV building, demanding the firing of the real culprit, that boss guy I mentioned.
First they tried to break them with repeating music coming from a loudspeaker above their heads  :lol: Then the building's security slowly started building a fence around the entrance where these hunger strikers are, and this morning they wanted to finish it. Got into a bit of a brawl with the hunger strikers over it, then some politicans arrived, and latest report is that they tore the fence down.
Police is not interveening as it's "private property". I am not exactly sure what's the legal backing behind the police watching ildly as some folks destroy private property, I guess it's because the TV is not asking for help.
I am of course with the demonstrators.
EDIT: who were fired from their TV jobs yesterday

But then again, this is a sheepish nation and their efforts are in vain.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 29, 2011, 04:29:09 AM
Are they really fucking sheeps (sic)?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 04:30:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 29, 2011, 04:29:09 AM
Are they really fucking sheeps (sic)?

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 29, 2011, 04:42:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 04:26:30 AM
-A week or two ago, the state TV news blurred out a dignitary during a reporting (he is/was some kind of high-end prosecutor or whatever, doesn't matter much), when he was seen in the background during an interview done at some cross-borders Hungarian charity thingie.
It turned out that he has been like an arch rival of one of the new main guys at the TV station, ever since the TV guy didn't receive a position this other bloke got. So since he took his TV office, this prosecutor dude has been verboten to appear in any reporting.

LOL wtf. This is beyond silly. It's Kafka-esque.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 29, 2011, 05:09:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2011, 04:42:47 AM
LOL wtf. This is beyond silly. It's Kafka-esque.  :ph34r:
I think this is the story:
http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21585&Itemid=219
What I find most absurd is how shit the airbrushing was:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.budapesttimes.hu%2Fimages%2Fstories%2FNews%2F20111209%2FZoltan%2520Lomnici%2520DunaB.jpg&hash=10bed3abdcaa45cc53aaa8b9a29712775076128e)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.budapesttimes.hu%2Fimages%2Fstories%2FNews%2F20111209%2FZoltan%2520Lomnici%2520HiradoB.jpg&hash=ec9c436e23e2ce3ef9203a63b63840358aafc45b)

Again Tamas, use your EU citizenship and come to the UK or Ireland - I don't know if you speak any other languages - if so maybe try more economically active bits, like Germany.

And I feel I should apologise to Marti for all the Poland jokes during the twin years.  It's still weird that you elected twins but nothing on this :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2011, 06:45:21 AM
indeed, get out while you still can.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 07:01:21 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2011, 06:45:21 AM
indeed, get out while you still can.

It does start to look like it will come down to that consideration, doesn't it?

I always entertained the tought of moving abroad, but a couple of years ago I more or less determined that the advantages I have here at home outweight the disadvantages.

Well, that conclusion is rapidly losing ground.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 05:00:33 AM
Janos Lazar, the faction leader of FIDESZ has been a quick-rising star in the party, and a perfect example of their attitude: ruthless, arrogant, and and a good servant of the Leader

A few months ago an audio recording from his time as mayor of a minor city was leaked. It was a council meeting, and I can't recall the details but he made a remark that "those who achieved nothing worth exactly that" and "he can have no sympathies for those who are not successful".
What makes it especially arrogant that his "achievment" was to be an asskisser lackey of the previous mayor, so effectively, that he became his successor.

So anyway, in 2006 as Mayor, he took up a serious CHF loan for the city via bonds. Much chest-beating was over it apparently, much bonuses paid for city council leaders on their successful financial wizardry, etc.

Needless to say, it is firing back on the city badly now, and they are in danger of going bankrupt on Lazar's heritage.

So how is he solving that? He has sent an OPEN LETTER to the bank who bought their CHF bonds, telling them to let some of the debt go, or he will push through punitive legislation on them and the rest of the sector.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 30, 2011, 06:09:13 AM
Just read this Tamas.  Terrifying:
QuoteHungary's Constitutional Revolution
Kim Lane Scheppele

Last week, Paul Krugman's column "Depression and Democracy" called attention to Hungary's "authoritarian slide." Since I was one of the sources for Paul's column, I'd like to explain why I have been alarmed at the state of both constitutionalism and democracy in Hungary.

In a free and fair election last spring in Hungary, the center-right political party, Fidesz, got 53% of the vote. This translated into 68% of the seats in the parliament under Hungary's current disproportionate election law. With this supermajority, Fidesz won the power to change the constitution. They have used this power in the most extreme way at every turn, amending the constitution ten times in their first year in office and then enacting a wholly new constitution that will take effect on January 1, 2012.

This constitutional activity has transformed the legal landscape to remove checks on the power of the government and put virtually all power into the hands of the current governing party for the foreseeable future.

The new constitution has attracted a great deal of criticism from the Venice Commission for Democracy through Law of the Council of Europe, the European Parliament and the United States. But the Fidesz government has paid no attention.

Under the new constitutional order, the judiciary has taken the largest hit. The Constitutional Court, which once had the responsibility to review nearly all laws for constitutionality, has been killed off in three ways. First, the government expanded the number of judges on the bench and filled the new positions with their own political allies (think: Roosevelt's court-packing plan). Then, the government restricted the jurisdiction of the court so that it can no longer review any law that has an impact on the budget, like laws pertaining to taxes and austerity programs, unless the law infringes particular listed rights. Finally, the government changed the rules of access to the court so that it will no longer be easily able to review laws in the abstract for their compliance with the constitution. Moreover, individuals can no longer challenge the constitutionality of laws without first going through a lengthy process in the ordinary courts. The old Constitutional Court, which has served as the major check on governmental power in a unicameral parliamentary system, is now functionally dead.

The ordinary judiciary has suffered a similar fate. The government lowered the retirement age for judges from 70 to 62, giving judges only a few months to adjust to their new futures. More than 200 judges will be forced to retire from the bench starting on January 1, including most of the court presidents who assign cases and manage the daily workings of courts. The new law on the judiciary requires that the Supreme Court president have at least five years of Hungarian judicial experience. The current president of the Supreme Court is disqualified because his 17 years of experience as a judge on the European Court of Human Rights do not count. Therefore, he must leave office on January 1 also.

The law on the judiciary also creates a new National Judicial Office with a single person at the helm who has the power to replace the retiring judges and to name future judges. This person also has the power to move any sitting judge to a different court. A new constitutional amendment – to the new constitution! – will permit both the public prosecutor and the head of this new National Judicial Office to choose which judge will hear each case.


The independence of the judiciary is over when a government puts its own judges onto the bench, moves them around at will, and then selects which ones get particular cases to decide.

The Vice President of the European Commission for Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship, Viviane Reding, issued a strongly worded request for information about the new law last week and demanded immediate replies from the Hungarian government. She also strongly urged the government "to ensure . . . that no measure is implemented until doubts about its compliance with EU law are removed." The government responded by saying all of these changes are improvements and it seems to be going ahead with implementing the new constitutional framework despite the strong caution from Brussels.

In the new constitutional system, the legal supervision of elections has also been changed. Before the last election, the norm was for the five-member Election Commission to be politically diverse and for the government of the day to consult the opposition before nominating candidates. But the rules were changed last year so that each new national election is now accompanied by a new choice of election commissioners. As a result, the existing commissioners were removed from their offices without allowing them to finish their terms and now the Election Commission consists of five members of the governing party.

The new election law specifies the precise boundaries of the new electoral districts that will send representatives to the parliament. But the new districts are drawn in such a way that no other party on the political horizon besides Fidesz is likely to win elections. A respected Hungarian think tank ran the numbers from the last three elections using the new district boundaries. Fidesz would have won all three elections, including the two they actually lost.

Virtually every independent political institution has taken a hit. The human rights, data protection and minority affairs ombudsmen have been collapsed into one lesser post. The public prosecutor, the state audit office and, most recently, the Central Bank are all slated for more overtly political management in the new legal order.

And all of this has happened while the press operates under day-to-day intimidation. A draconian set of media laws created a new media board – staffed only by Fidesz party loyalists with a chair who is appointed by the Prime Minister to a nine-year term. This board can review all public and private media for their compliance with a nebulous standard of political "balance" and has the power to bankrupt any news organization with large fines.
It is not surprising that the media have become self-censoring. This new media regime has been severely criticized by the European Commissioner for Communications, among others.

The new constitution also accepts conservative Christian social doctrine as state policy, in a country where only 21% of the population attends any religious services at all. The fetus is protected from the moment of conception. Marriage is only legal if between a man and a woman. The constitution "recognize(s) the role of Christianity in preserving nationhood" and holds that "the family and the nation constitute the principal framework of our coexistence." While these religious beliefs are hard-wired into the constitution, a new law on the status of religion cut the number of state-recognized churches to only fourteen, deregistering 348 other churches.

In a democracy, the population can "throw the bums out" and replace the government with a different one that can change the policies that do not have public support. But that will be nearly impossible under this constitution. In addition to compromising institutions that are necessary for a free and fair election – like a free press and a neutral election apparatus – the new constitution embeds Fidesz control even if another political party defies the odds and wins an election.

The new constitution makes huge swaths of public policy changeable only by a two-thirds vote of any subsequent parliament. From here on, all tax and fiscal policy must be decided by a two-thirds supermajority. Even the precise boundaries of electoral districts cannot be changed by simple majority vote, but only by a two-third supermajority. If a new government gets a mere majority, policies instituted during the Fidesz government cannot be changed.


That's not all. The long arm of the current Fidesz government can grab and shake any foreseeable future government through the officials they are now putting into place. The new constitutional order extends the terms of office for the public prosecutor (9 years), the head of the state audit office (12 years), the head of the national judicial office (9 years), the head of the media board (9 years), the head of the budget council (6 years) and more. Each of these positions has been filled with Fidesz party loyalists who will be able to conduct public investigations, intimidate the media, press criminal charges and continue to pack the courts long after the government's current term is over. Moreover, unless there is a two-thirds vote to replace these new office holders, they can stay in office until such a two-thirds vote can be achieved, which could extend these long terms of office even further.

How do all of these pieces work together? One example will illustrate. The constitution creates a national budget council with the power to veto any future budget that adds to the national debt, which any foreseeable budget will do. The members of the budget council have been chosen by this government for terms of 6 or 12 years and can only be replaced if two-thirds of the parliament can agree on new candidates when their terms are over. Another part of the constitution requires the parliament to pass a budget by March 31 of each year. If the parliament fails to do so, the president of the country can dissolve the parliament and call new elections. When these pieces are put together, the constraints on any future government are clear. A new government will pass a budget – but that budget can be vetoed by Fidesz loyalists so that the budget deadline is missed, and then the president (also named by Fidesz) will call new elections. And this can be repeated until an acceptable government is voted back into power.

The only parties that might replace Fidesz in the current Hungarian landscape are the Socialist Party or, in a real nightmare scenario, the far-right Jobbik. Under laws that preceded Fidesz's election last year, political parties that are anti-constitutional may be banned. Some have suggested that Fidesz could eliminate Jobbik in this way. In fact, Europe probably would not mind if Jobbik were excluded from public life because other European countries can ban extremist parties also. But what about Fidesz's primary competition – the Socialists?

According to a proposed constitutional amendment, the crimes of the former communist party will be listed in the constitution and the statute of limitations for prosecuting crimes committed during the communist period will be lifted. The former communist party is branded a criminal organization and the current opposition Socialist Party is designated as their legal successor. It is still unclear, legally speaking, what this amendment means. But it is probably not good for the major opposition party.

The Fidesz government has accomplished this constitutional revolution by legal means after a democratic election. But though Fidesz was democratically elected and has accomplished this program through constitutional change, Hungary is not a constitutional democracy. Instead Hungary is, as Paul Krugman said, sliding into authoritarianism.

I saw in a follow up post:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/more-hungary/#
That Fidesz's popularity has halved.  But it looks like no-one else is picking it up:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2011%2F12%2F20%2Fopinion%2F122011krugman1%2F122011krugman1-blog480.jpg&hash=19c02b64ff4d8fb87218aabac5e89ff5e4b03f3e)
From that I've two questions.  What's the chances of Jobbik taking over from the Socialists as the second party?  Is there any hope of an organised opposition actually emerging out of the unhappiness that's clearly there?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2011, 06:43:20 AM
Prediction: people's unhappiness with prevailing government doctrine will at some point render Hungary an ungovernable poorhouse. The smart people will leave the country for better opportunities abroad. The economic decline will continue and Hungary will turn into a new poorhouse of Europe. The prevailing government will blame this on foreign influences, isolating themselves further a.s.o. a.s.f.

Shame, really, Hungary was one of the countries of Ex-Warsaw Pact that I thought would get their shit together quickly (together with Poles and Czechs).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 07:01:46 AM
I wonder what they'll do when they go bankrupt very soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 07:24:10 AM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 07:01:46 AM
I wonder what they'll do when they go bankrupt very soon.

Well before bankrupcy, they will use the Central Banks' considerable euro reserves to buy up state bonds which are like, not selling on the market below 8-9% or so right now.
Then they might get their hands on savings account, who knows. THEN, bankrupcy.

And Sheilbh, all of that article is true, and the saddest thing is that the population takes it with indifference and lethargy. Sure, they complain to friends and coworkers, but to do something? Nah, we will have a violent uprising when things become totally unbearable, but we are a very passive nation.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on December 30, 2011, 07:38:32 AM
We might get a new wave of Hungarian porn 'starlets'.  :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:31:30 AM
Btw, is there any chance of any internal, sensible opposition forming within Fidesz and taking the power away from these lunatics? Surely not everyone there is a closet dictator - or are they?

I'm asking because what actually broke PiS down was the fact that PO and PiS went to 2005 elections with a similar programme and a unified front (POPiS) but quickly fell out and eventually became mortal enemies. PO then needed to differentiate themselves from PiS and adopted a much more conciliatory rhetorics. If POPiS was a single party, it would be similar to Hungary imo.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Hungary is like a twilight zone version of Poland, where PiS wins a decisive victory and faces no opposition.

Btw, in Poland during the PiS rule they faced an almost unified front of media, celebrities, intellectuals, professions such as lawyers, judges, doctors etc. that eventually broke them. Why are such groups so apparently weak in Hungary? Is this a legacy of 1956 somehow that people are not accustomed to civil resistance?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:31:30 AM
Btw, is there any chance of any internal, sensible opposition forming within Fidesz and taking the power away from these lunatics? Surely not everyone there is a closet dictator - or are they?

I'm asking because what actually broke PiS down was the fact that PO and PiS went to 2005 elections with a similar programme and a unified front (POPiS) but quickly fell out and eventually became mortal enemies. If POPiS was a single party, it would be similar to Hungary imo.

Those people have been pushed out of leadership positions, and been marginalized by Orban. Everyone with a position of actual power owes that position personally to Orban, and got it on accounts of his loyalty to him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Hungary is like a twilight zone version of Poland, where PiS wins a decisive victory and faces no opposition.

Btw, in Poland during the PiS rule they faced an almost unified front of media, celebrities, intellectuals, professions such as lawyers, judges, doctors etc. that eventually broke them. Why are such groups so apparently weak in Hungary? Is this a legacy of 1956 somehow that people are not accustomed to civil resistance?

Well, it's a bit complex. We have no radical, violent far left. We have almost all of the mob on the far right, and mostly controlled by FIDESZ. The rest of it is with Jobbik, but for whatever reason, Jobbik has been the mildest opposition party. Sure, they complain for a lack of improvement in public safety, but what else can they do? Their "program" includes being angry at the jews and gypsies and homosexuals, and being all full of proud national rhetoric. The latter is COMPLETELY stolen by FIDESZ, the rest is stolen in part.
The thing is, you cannot get into a populist brawling match with FIDESZ without a serious risk of losing. And Jobbik can only gain by letting things play out - the collapse of the country will drive people to them, and the new laws will serve their undemocratic ways nicely.

The left is still disabled by the leading position of the Socialists. They have lost all credibility, and the new leftist party, LMP, is too much of a local debate group of big city hipsters to hold any kind of popular appeal in a country of bluecollar city dwellers and rural rednecks.

Besides, you cannot overtake FIDESZ from the left either. What are you going to do? Promise more state control of the economy? Compared to FIDESZ? LULZ. More welfare? The country is on the brink of bankrupcy because FIDESZ refuses to cut state spending in a meaningful ways.

What you are left with is protesting the things in Sheilb's article, but the people do not care enough for that. They care about the momentary state of their wallets. Affect that, and they will shout. Avoid immediate effect on their short-term financial status and they will let you do anything. This is the great lesson Orban knows fully well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
hehe, Jobbik just did something: they asked for national referendum on a bunch of laws which were to be accepted today. Two laws, actually, the religious one, and one consisting several modifications to make laws compatible with the new constitution - I don't know the details.

Now, it will be the Parlaiment to decide wether a referendum can be held. So there won't be any. But by current rules, this decision can only be made in February.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:05:39 AM
One of the just accepted laws let the state institute special taxes in case an international organization, like the EU Comission or anyone else, would fine Hungary. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 30, 2011, 09:05:55 AM
I like the LMP by the sound of them :)

Do you not have a liberal party of some form?

This is a bit of a tangent but how does Hungary have so few parties?  It seems very odd for a continental country.

Could corruption cause the downfall of Fidesz?  I think it was in the Czech Republic where two entirely new parties overtook all the established ones on anti-corruption platforms. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 30, 2011, 09:05:55 AM
I like the LMP by the sound of them :)

Do you not have a liberal party of some form?

This is a bit of a tangent but how does Hungary have so few parties?  It seems very odd for a continental country.

Could corruption cause the downfall of Fidesz?  I think it was in the Czech Republic where two entirely new parties overtook all the established ones on anti-corruption platforms.

The liberals, who were more like social-liberals, really, were the second strongest party in 1990. Then in 1994 they agreed to form a coalition with the Socialists, and slowly eroded away by being much more busy with corrupting themselves to riches than articulating an own party indentity. "Liberal" is a smear-word for most Hungarians nowadays. :(

Corruption is certainly a possible downfall for them, they are doing it rather arrogantly. But again, it's not like the biggest opposition party is not full of angles of attack on themselves on that topic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:58:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
hehe, Jobbik just did something: they asked for national referendum on a bunch of laws which were to be accepted today. Two laws, actually, the religious one, and one consisting several modifications to make laws compatible with the new constitution - I don't know the details.

Now, it will be the Parlaiment to decide wether a referendum can be held. So there won't be any. But by current rules, this decision can only be made in February.

never mind! FIDESZ found a glitch in the constitution (the old one, which is going out of business in two days) regarding the rules on referendums, and they just cancelled Jobbik's call.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2011, 10:15:08 AM
I like how some user comments on Austrian news sites say that these events in Hungary are played up to distract from the general EU crisis, and that Hungary is doing nothing worse than what other countries or the U.S. do.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 10:37:35 AM
 :lol: the urgency and amateruishness on their lawmaking is horrible:

They just now accepted a new water utilities law. It would deserve a look on it's own (they declare that any given utility company will have monopoly in a town, and that prices must be equal everywhere. ie. so of course people next to a major river on the plains will be paying more so that people on top of a mountain may pay less, vive le' centrally determined prices!), but they added some, well, addendums on topics they needed to cover asap.

So, as important extensions of the water utilites law, they introduce a concept of "healthcare emergency" to force doctors to work, in case their planned evacuation of our healthcare system would cause major problems.

An other quick and important matter of water utliziation is to give casinos exemption from the smoking ban law coming into effect from Monday.

Also quickly covered waterutilisation topics are modifications to MP compensations and investment funds rulings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 10:41:06 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2011, 10:15:08 AM
I like how some user comments on Austrian news sites say that these events in Hungary are played up to distract from the general EU crisis, and that Hungary is doing nothing worse than what other countries or the U.S. do.

Which reminds me, today an Austrian border town was covered in the news (state TV, so there you go) that people are throwing a tantrum over the planned sale of the empty border guard buildings, the mayor are worried that they'll have to buy containers as makeshift offices if the border is reinstated.

A bit anxious to have those fences back?  :D

This perceived Austrian attitude towards us is the only thing stopping me to take half of my parents' savings an deposit them in an Austrian bank. Perhaps this is why this issue was covered in state news.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2011, 10:51:50 AM
Their anxiety is understandable. Recently, after 20 years, the last recruits of the Army left the "support mission" in which military personnel moitored the borders towards Austria's eastern neighbours for illegal immigrants. They had no hard mandate (they had to call border police if they spotted something suspicious), but it was a hot political issue and gave the average Austrian some peace of mind that the Mongol hordes would not invade overnight. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
Tamas, is there anything silly planned about foreign investments? The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 11:50:46 AM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
Tamas, is there anything silly planned about foreign investments? The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.

I wouldn't think so, but these guys are totally unpredictable. But I do hope they see that they have pushed everything to the limit.

This is a hot topic for myself as well - the company I work for have built other central european offices big enough to quickly scoop up our workload, so I don't think they would take further taxes or government harrasment lightly.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on December 30, 2011, 11:53:00 AM
Yesterday I saw a lead on some financial channel, "No appetite for Hungary."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 02:50:32 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Hungary is like a twilight zone version of Poland, where PiS wins a decisive victory and faces no opposition.

Btw, in Poland during the PiS rule they faced an almost unified front of media, celebrities, intellectuals, professions such as lawyers, judges, doctors etc. that eventually broke them. Why are such groups so apparently weak in Hungary? Is this a legacy of 1956 somehow that people are not accustomed to civil resistance?

Well, it's a bit complex. We have no radical, violent far left. We have almost all of the mob on the far right, and mostly controlled by FIDESZ. The rest of it is with Jobbik, but for whatever reason, Jobbik has been the mildest opposition party. Sure, they complain for a lack of improvement in public safety, but what else can they do? Their "program" includes being angry at the jews and gypsies and homosexuals, and being all full of proud national rhetoric. The latter is COMPLETELY stolen by FIDESZ, the rest is stolen in part.
The thing is, you cannot get into a populist brawling match with FIDESZ without a serious risk of losing. And Jobbik can only gain by letting things play out - the collapse of the country will drive people to them, and the new laws will serve their undemocratic ways nicely.

The left is still disabled by the leading position of the Socialists. They have lost all credibility, and the new leftist party, LMP, is too much of a local debate group of big city hipsters to hold any kind of popular appeal in a country of bluecollar city dwellers and rural rednecks.

Besides, you cannot overtake FIDESZ from the left either. What are you going to do? Promise more state control of the economy? Compared to FIDESZ? LULZ. More welfare? The country is on the brink of bankrupcy because FIDESZ refuses to cut state spending in a meaningful ways.

What you are left with is protesting the things in Sheilb's article, but the people do not care enough for that. They care about the momentary state of their wallets. Affect that, and they will shout. Avoid immediate effect on their short-term financial status and they will let you do anything. This is the great lesson Orban knows fully well.

It's not like you have to campaign on economy (other than normalcy). You could overtake Fidesz from the left by putting a stress on "worldview" issues while at the same time promising a stable economy? What about a party that would campaign on "we will stop Hungary from being an international pariah and make the country normal and safe again"? That's how PO won the government from PiS. I find it hard to believe that an average Hungarian is a greater xenophobic, racist, homophobic idiot than an average Pole.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Isn't hating gays what normal people do?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 30, 2011, 04:19:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 10:37:35 AM
An other quick and important matter of water utliziation is to give casinos exemption from the smoking ban law coming into effect from Monday.

:(  No more puffing away in the cafe listening to "Gloomy Sunday" over a shot of Unicum?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 30, 2011, 05:44:13 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.

What. The. Fuck.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 31, 2011, 04:36:52 AM
Haven't seen Tamas posting about this, so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15982882

Hungary outlaws the homeless.

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Next, they should outlaw unemployment, poverty and disease. That would create a healthy nation of rich and gainfully employed Hungarians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 31, 2011, 05:17:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 31, 2011, 04:36:52 AM
Haven't seen Tamas posting about this, so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15982882

Hungary outlaws the homeless.

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Next, they should outlaw unemployment, poverty and disease. That would create a healthy nation of rich and gainfully employed Hungarians.

Well, only a district of Budapest outlawed them, to be correct. :P And there has been a civil movement to force the revokation of this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on December 31, 2011, 05:32:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 30, 2011, 05:44:13 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.

What. The. Fuck.
The alternatives were Poland and Romania. But as several of our competitors already have invested in Hungary, the necessary infrastructure exists. And if Orban tanks the Forint, it will get comparatively cheaper too. ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
My hopelessness (sp?) got to a new high just recently. It was caused by a quote from a piece. I will do my best to translate it:

"We are watched by cultured nations. They see our inability to progress, our bloating on samoyed morality; we are fiddling in the middle of Europe, like a piece of the Medieval left here. They see that we are empty and light, if we want to do something big we hit jews, when we start sobering up, we hurry to drink again from the cup of the sweet, colored-up drink of that thousand years old glory. They see that we are lazy and good-for-nothing. The stone castle of great nations, the parlaiment, is only good to be discredited. What will be the end of this, dear lords of mine? Because, I happen to be a magyar as well, not a 'pawnjew' as you mock everyone who is better than you. It will end by us being sent away, like we never was here."


Sounds actual? Yes.

Trouble is, it was written, 110 years ago, by one of our greatest poets/writers, Endre Ady.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
My hopelessness (sp?) got to a new high just recently. It was caused by a quote from a piece. I will do my best to translate it:

"We are watched by cultured nations. They see our inability to progress, our bloating on samoyed morality; we are fiddling in the middle of Europe, like a piece of the Medieval left here. They see that we are empty and light, if we want to do something big we hit jews, when we start sobering up, we hurry to drink again from the cup of the sweet, colored-up drink of that thousand years old glory. They see that we are lazy and good-for-nothing. The stone castle of great nations, the parlaiment, is only good to be discredited. What will be the end of this, dear lords of mine? Because, I happen to be a magyar as well, not a 'pawnjew' as you mock everyone who is better than you. It will end by us being sent away, like we never was here."


Sounds actual? Yes.

Trouble is, it was written, 110 years ago, by one of our greatest poets/writers, Endre Ady.

That's some shitty English translation. :P

And seriously, don't feel bad. History usually repeats itself but as a farce. You will have an operetta-style government for a few years and then things will go back to normal. If not, Warsaw is always happy to send in tanks, like in 1956. :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
My hopelessness (sp?) got to a new high just recently. It was caused by a quote from a piece. I will do my best to translate it:

"We are watched by cultured nations. They see our inability to progress, our bloating on samoyed morality; we are fiddling in the middle of Europe, like a piece of the Medieval left here. They see that we are empty and light, if we want to do something big we hit jews, when we start sobering up, we hurry to drink again from the cup of the sweet, colored-up drink of that thousand years old glory. They see that we are lazy and good-for-nothing. The stone castle of great nations, the parlaiment, is only good to be discredited. What will be the end of this, dear lords of mine? Because, I happen to be a magyar as well, not a 'pawnjew' as you mock everyone who is better than you. It will end by us being sent away, like we never was here."


Sounds actual? Yes.

Trouble is, it was written, 110 years ago, by one of our greatest poets/writers, Endre Ady.

That's some shitty English translation. :P

And seriously, don't feel bad. History usually repeats itself but as a farce. You will have an operetta-style government for a few years and then things will go back to normal. If not, Warsaw is always happy to send in tanks, like in 1956. :)

lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P

Speaking of which, I saw a headline somewhere today that there is a bill in the Slovakian parlaiment, which intends to fine everyone who dares saying nasty things about their MPs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:09:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P

Speaking of which, I saw a headline somewhere today that there is a bill in the Slovakian parlaiment, which intends to fine everyone who dares saying nasty things about their MPs.

Is news from Slovakia often reported in Hungary? I mean, we are also their neighbours, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about them in our newspapers - they are like a non-entity pretty much. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:11:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:09:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P

Speaking of which, I saw a headline somewhere today that there is a bill in the Slovakian parlaiment, which intends to fine everyone who dares saying nasty things about their MPs.

Is news from Slovakia often reported in Hungary? I mean, we are also their neighbours, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about them in our newspapers - they are like a non-entity pretty much. :P

just funny trivia like this. Also they have a nazi leader who gains (considerable) popularity by implying that we are bent on reconquering them, and that their Hungarian minority is to blame for anything sort of bad weather. When he makes comments like "I'll drive tanks on Budapest!" that makes the news here :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 02, 2012, 09:12:02 AM
It's funny, the only neighbours that are regularly in Austrian news are Germany and to lesser extent Italy. Switzerland, and anything in the east hardly gets mentioned (Hungarian news are a bit of a footnote atm).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:14:16 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 02, 2012, 09:12:02 AM
It's funny, the only neighbours that are regularly in Austrian news are Germany and to lesser extent Italy. Switzerland, and anything in the east hardly gets mentioned (Hungarian news are a bit of a footnote atm).

We cover Russia and Germany (and to a lesser extent Ukraine) in terms of internal politics the most. Lithuania and Belarus get coverage when they mistreat the Polish minority or (in Belarus's case) when they do something anti-democratic. Czech Republic gets coverage when someone dies or their president blocks the EU treaty or something like that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably mostly because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably most because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.

Sadly (since you have liberals running the show apparently in an okay way), Poland is like a non-entity in the news here. We cover elections briefly, and when something like the plane crash happens, but nothing else.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 02, 2012, 09:17:25 AM
In Germany, I'd say France gets most coverage among the neighbours. Next would be Poland and Netherlands. And then it probably depends on where you live - e.g. up in the North you hear more about Denmark.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably most because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.

Sadly (since you have liberals running the show apparently in an okay way), Poland is like a non-entity in the news here. We cover elections briefly, and when something like the plane crash happens, but nothing else.

I wouldn't call our government "liberals", except perhaps in the classic sense (which does not mean "leftist"). Politically they are moderate conservatives, both on social issues and on the economy. They are closest to French gaullists, German CDU/CSU or the UK tories (but not eurosceptical). It's just when compared to PiS they seem leftist.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:21:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably most because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.

Sadly (since you have liberals running the show apparently in an okay way), Poland is like a non-entity in the news here. We cover elections briefly, and when something like the plane crash happens, but nothing else.

I wouldn't call our government "liberals", except perhaps in the classic sense (which does not mean "leftist"). Politically they are moderate conservatives, both on social issues and on the economy. They are closest to French gaullists, German CDU/CSU or the UK tories (but not eurosceptical). It's just when compared to PiS they seem leftist.

leftists shouldnt be called liberals they should be called socialists :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 12:20:44 PM
Tonight the ruling elite will celebrate the new constitution, and all opposition organizations of note announced a demonstration in front of the opera house.

Except for Jobbik. Some nazis loudly planned on facebook to stop the demonstrations, namely because the former PM, who ruled when their kin was teargassed in 2006, will attend it.

Right now there is not that many people, but some nazis do manage to get to the opposition crowd.

Will tonight be a turning point, or just an other failed attempt to protest our slide down?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
The newspapers here are writing that Hungary has banned the socialdemocrat party and will prosecute its members. True or false?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 01:03:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
The newspapers here are writing that Hungary has banned the socialdemocrat party and will prosecute its members. True or false?

Nah. I think one of Sheilb's article covered that: they made the crimes of the communist regime un-expirable (though they don't define the crimes), and declared, in law, that MSZP, the Socialist party, is the legal heir of the communist regime's ruling party and shares all responsibilities for the crimes of the communists.

They do have a point to the extent that MSZP was formed by renaming MSZMP, the communist ruling party (MSZP stands for Hungarian Socialist Party, MSZMP has a -Workers- tag in addition), they inherited all the infrastructure, and elite. Hey, our PM from 1994-1998 was in the communist militia from just after (perhaps even during) the '56 revolution.

But to add to that ex-PMs story, he joined the communists after his older brother, a minor communist functionary, was hanged by the rebels in '56.


But needless to say, the law itself is crazy. While some of the old guard is still in place, the current up-front leaders were teenagers or 20-somethings in  89.

I think the play here is the same as with the media law: damocles' sword. Are we getting huge-ass fines due to the new media law? The one that basically let the authority issue those company-ruining fines basically at whim? No. Do we have a very noticable shyness regarding political coverage from all but a couple of media outlets since the new law? Definetly.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
I read an interesting article about Orban.  It was largely recollections of him from his dissident days  and, to a lesser extent, first term.  It made the whole situation really rather sad because by the sounds of it when he was a dissident he was very fun, humourous, witty, sparky and very charmingly and genuinely liberal in his attitudes.  I think he said freedom of the press was most important 'we hope never to be dull again' (I'm quoting from memory so that could be off).  It's a real shame :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 02:10:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
I read an interesting article about Orban.  It was largely recollections of him from his dissident days  and, to a lesser extent, first term.  It made the whole situation really rather sad because by the sounds of it when he was a dissident he was very fun, humourous, witty, sparky and very charmingly and genuinely liberal in his attitudes.  I think he said freedom of the press was most important 'we hope never to be dull again' (I'm quoting from memory so that could be off).  It's a real shame :(

Yes, he was a loud liberal. Then realized this country has no history with liberalism, nor interest in it. He was a market opening on the conservative side, and quickly took it. So from the youngster who shouted "time to pray, monks!" in the Parlaiment, he converted to a church-goer catholic, basically overnight. One of the founding members of his party left to the liberals but the rest remained.
This quick shift to national pride and biggotry gave him 1998. But he lost to leftist welfare demagogy -or so he thought- Yes, he lost to that too, but also lost because the socialists presented a technocrat, calm image with their PM candidate, and after 4 years of the arrogant bullying FIDESZ produced (the same as now, they just had less power with a mere 50% which they had in coalition with the farmers' party), the people were happy to change to that.

So, he drew the conclusions, and became this strange mix of moderate-almost-far right and the most vicious leftist populism. I would call it national socialism, because that is the best fitting term, but that's tainted.


So to summarize, yes, he was a liberal once, but after these two decades of him changing clothes for short-term political gains, I have doubts that he ever meant any of it. You just can't determine what he thinks of the world. FFS to this day, he lashes out at the EU, and proclaims some isolationist almost communist nonsense to the plebs, than days later holds a laisez faire speech to big company leaders.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: dps on January 02, 2012, 02:40:34 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 02:10:52 PM

So, he drew the conclusions, and became this strange mix of moderate-almost-far right and the most vicious leftist populism.

Lol.  Sounds almost like a latter-day, east European version of William Jennings Bryan, except that Bryan was always pretty consistant in his views.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 04:05:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
I read an interesting article about Orban.  It was largely recollections of him from his dissident days  and, to a lesser extent, first term.  It made the whole situation really rather sad because by the sounds of it when he was a dissident he was very fun, humourous, witty, sparky and very charmingly and genuinely liberal in his attitudes.  I think he said freedom of the press was most important 'we hope never to be dull again' (I'm quoting from memory so that could be off).  It's a real shame :(

Sounds like the Kaczynskis. From a certain perspective, sometimes I wonder if they (Kaczynskis, Orban) consider their newfound ideologies to be the right one, or rather they imagine themselves, to some degree, to be these Promethean or Lucipherian figures that sacrifice their political soul to contain and rein in the chthonic forces of Eastern European nationalism and semi-fascism - they realize there is a considerable portion of people in countries like Hungary or Poland who would vote for authoritarian welfare state right-wingers (the political illiterates that lived through their formative years in the totalitarian regime), so take on this role (suppressing their actual political views) to make sure these people do not end up voting for even more evil parties, like Jobbik or the League of Polish Families in Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
BBC's coverage of the protest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16387117


Very encouraging turnout. I wonder if there will be reprecussions. "the capital's middle class fighting Orban" is the comment you get from the fanatical FIDESZ-supporters, it is to be seen if this will become a class warfare excuse for some form of punishment, but I don't think so.


The coolest part was how the government initially intended this to be a glorious celebration of the national unity their constitution created, and instead they sneaked in to the opera house, had a reduced show, and then most of them, including the Prime Minister, were smuggled out at some back door, since a few hundred or so protesters remained facing the same number of cops, chanting "We are waiting for you!" "Come out!"

On the grim news side, government sources told Index, a leading online news site, that indeed they are planning to get their hand on the euro reserves of the central bank, and spend it on the nationalized debt of the various county municipalities, and "economic stimulus"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:50:16 AM
A rhetoric the government took up a few months ago was "war against national debt"

It is of course does  not look good that according to recent statistics of the central bank, our national debt has reached record highs at about 82% of the GDP (and our bonds barely sell at 10%).

But no worries, the PM's spokeperson (he has hiso wn, and he is such a smug asshole I think he will be the first to hang if there is a revolution) solved the problem. He said that "national debt is on the decrease. Everyone knows this, everyone sees this." The statistics of the central bank are "unprofessional" and he is "not convinced that they serve the country's interests"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.168ora.hu%2Fdb%2F01%2F5A%2Fleadpic1-4896-d0001215A849c9d0ce9e4.jpg&hash=4999884d9a8ccbb121455fa3dbf2acf4531de8f8)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 03, 2012, 05:28:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
BBC's coverage of the protest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16387117


Very encouraging turnout. I wonder if there will be reprecussions. "the capital's middle class fighting Orban" is the comment you get from the fanatical FIDESZ-supporters, it is to be seen if this will become a class warfare excuse for some form of punishment, but I don't think so.

Uhm, that's a jab? The middle class is the healthiest core of the society. Attacking someone as "middle class" (outside of certain London or Boston dwelling Bohemian Languishites) is retarded.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 03, 2012, 05:29:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:50:16 AM
A rhetoric the government took up a few months ago was "war against national debt"

It is of course does  not look good that according to recent statistics of the central bank, our national debt has reached record highs at about 82% of the GDP (and our bonds barely sell at 10%).

But no worries, the PM's spokeperson (he has hiso wn, and he is such a smug asshole I think he will be the first to hang if there is a revolution) solved the problem. He said that "national debt is on the decrease. Everyone knows this, everyone sees this." The statistics of the central bank are "unprofessional" and he is "not convinced that they serve the country's interests"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.168ora.hu%2Fdb%2F01%2F5A%2Fleadpic1-4896-d0001215A849c9d0ce9e4.jpg&hash=4999884d9a8ccbb121455fa3dbf2acf4531de8f8)

:D

What's with the hair? Is this like a hipster skinhead do? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 05:32:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 03, 2012, 05:28:11 AM
Uhm, that's a jab? The middle class is the healthiest core of the society. Attacking someone as "middle class" (outside of certain London or Boston dwelling Bohemian Languishites) is retarded.  :lol:
I could be wrong but  I think it's like an attack on a 'liberal metropolitan elite' which works in loads of countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 03, 2012, 05:33:56 AM
Yes it's :Joos
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 03, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Austrian ORF comment the current developments on their website.

They have an additional article about the decline of the cultural scene.

Bullet point summary:
- A few years ago, Hungary was a rising star in the arts scene
- Orban has slashed budgets for state run cultural institutions by 1/3 in 2011, plans another 1/6 in 2012
- Museums, theaters, libraries close down due to lack of funding
- movie industry has ground to a halt
- government plans new museum's quarter in Budapest, with 100,000 EUR of government money and millions from the EU
- nationalist artists have been hired to illustrate the new constitution as per the government's tradionalist vision

One of the most important stages has a new head, a renowned right-wing antisemite. He wants to "clean up the diseased liberal hegemony" in the stage business and "declare war on the lowbrow entertainment industry." Further he wants to rename the stage from "New Stage" to "Hinterland Stage", to symbolize "the repressed Hungarianism under the socialist-liberal yoke."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2012, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 03, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
One of the most important stages has a new head, a renowned right-wing antisemite. He wants to "clean up the diseased liberal hegemony" in the stage business and "declare war on the lowbrow entertainment industry." Further he wants to rename the stage from "New Stage" to "Hinterland Stage", to symbolize "the repressed Hungarianism under the socialist-liberal yoke."

Does this mean more nudity or less? :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on January 03, 2012, 05:31:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2012, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 03, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
One of the most important stages has a new head, a renowned right-wing antisemite. He wants to "clean up the diseased liberal hegemony" in the stage business and "declare war on the lowbrow entertainment industry." Further he wants to rename the stage from "New Stage" to "Hinterland Stage", to symbolize "the repressed Hungarianism under the socialist-liberal yoke."

Does this mean more nudity or less? :hmm:

Sounds like less.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 07:19:28 AM
EURHUF is at record high, CDS at 700 points. Great to be Hungarian today!



NOT.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 07:52:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 07:19:28 AM
EURHUF is at record high, CDS at 700 points. Great to be Hungarian today!



NOT.

Fuck you, your shitty ways are contaminating PLN rates as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 08:10:06 AM
Financial Times effectively calls the Hungarian constitution changes a coup:

QuoteDemocracy under threat in Budapest

Months before his death in December, Václav Havel, former Czech president and leader of his country's anti-communist revolution, signed a petition decrying the destruction of democracy in Hungary. His warning, which echoed those of others, including this newspaper, went unheeded. A country at Europe's geographical heart has suffered what amounts to a constitutional coup.

Hungary's new constitution, which took effect on January 1, combined with a flurry of "basic" laws rushed through at the end of 2011, has all but removed checks and balances to the power of Hungary's government and ruling party. Meanwhile, the electoral rules have been changed in a way that could keep the party responsible, prime minister Viktor Orbán's Fidesz, in power for years to come.

The legislative changes give the government sweeping influence over the media, the judiciary, the central bank and audit and budget watchdogs. In several cases, it will wield power via committees stuffed with Fidesz appointees, their heads installed for nine years and replaceable only by a two-thirds parliamentary vote. In the legal sphere, a close friend of Mr Orban has power to appoint judges. The constitutional court's powers have been curtailed.

Electoral boundaries, meanwhile, have been redrawn in a way that favours Fidesz. One think-tank calculates that under these rules, the party would have won the last two elections, which it lost. Fidesz has gone too far in seeking to impose state regulation of religion, reducing the number of officially registered sects to 14. These do not include any world religions other than Christianity and Judaism.

Much of what the government has done is incompatible with Hungary's membership of the European Union. Brussels, and Hungary's fellow EU states, should join the US in robust condemnation. It should be made clear to Mr Orban that his actions are undermining Hungary's application for much-needed financial support from the EU and the International Monetary Fund.

It also exposes a flaw in the EU's legal framework. While new entrants must prove compliance with democratic norms, there is no comeback if they subsequently fall short. As the EU expands to countries where democracy has shallower roots, this lack should be addressed. Hungary has become the first EU state to challenge the assumption that democracy is irreversible. Amid Europe's economic woes, it may not be the last.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a5fe09ee-3604-11e1-ae04-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1iUiwClge
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 04, 2012, 08:18:20 AM
So, are they going to start a war to revise Triannon anytime soon?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 08:23:09 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2012, 08:18:20 AM
So, are they going to start a war to revise Triannon anytime soon?

They have already given voting rights to all with Hungarian citizenship regardless of where they live, and easy access to said citizenship to everyone with Hungarian nationality, if you consider that a start.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 04, 2012, 08:24:57 AM
FT raises a good point.

Quite a few user comments point to the sanctions enacted in 2000 on Austria by the EU when Jörg Haider became minority partner of a coalition with the conservatives (up to EU sending officials to observe whether democracy was ending in the country) and they - rightfully - ask why so little is done or said about what's happening in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2012, 08:24:57 AM
FT raises a good point.

Quite a few user comments point to the sanctions enacted in 2000 on Austria by the EU when Jörg Haider became minority partner of a coalition with the conservatives (up to EU sending officials to observe whether democracy was ending in the country) and they - rightfully - ask why so little is done or said about what's happening in Hungary.

Probably because our budget is so fucked up we might collapse even if we receive EU/IMF help, let alone if we get some kind of punishment instead.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 08:43:01 AM
There's a difference between a minority party of a coalition and a party that got over 50percent of the popular vote.  The former's less important but easier to sanction. How can the unelected EU leadership be able to sanction the democratic choice of the majority of Hungarians?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 08:43:01 AM
There's a difference between a minority party of a coalition and a party that got over 50percent of the popular vote.  The former's less important but easier to sanction. How can the unelected EU leadership be able to sanction the democratic choice of the majority of Hungarians?

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 09:42:30 AM
That's one of my several concerns - we need help badly but the EU cannot let Orban bring back the velved dictatorship we had during Kadar until '89. The economic portion of the European unity is crumbling, they simply cannot let the political portion be compromised by a member state turning into a semi-dictatorship one party state. Credibility equals survival now for the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 09:29:04 AMI don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.
I think the Austrian ostracism was wrong, I'm not sure that it would be right in Hungary's case either.

The core difference for me is that Austria was sanctioned because the government brought in a questionable party.  If Hungary were to be sanctioned it would be because over 50% of the electorate voted in a questionable party, which is now enacted its policies.  The people elected the 'wrong' party and now they're delivering what they promised.  That's not the sort of territory I think the EU should head into and is also anti-democratic of itself. 

If this happens then there's a clear precedent.  How anti-democratic must policies be before the EU intervenes?  Is it the EU's role to regulated the checks and balances of internal constitutions (this would after all be an enormous leap) and determine if, say, the independent judiciary is being undermined?

I'm also not sure what the Treaty basis is, what do you think it would be?

As to the ECHR I think that's fair - and I do think the prosecutor being able to choose their judge is against right to a fair trial - but that's for individuals to take to the Court, which is a long process.  Until that happens the ECHR can't do anything and is, anyway, separate from the eU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 10:34:08 AM
Ok, Sheilbh, I saw the "we delivered what we promised" excuse appear in foreign media, made by the government. That's bullshit.

They didn't promise SHIT. That's how they won. They told everything would be better, that there is enough money the socialists are just stealing it. Oh, and that they will protect private pensions, lol.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 AM
Well, I worded myself poorly - I'm against sanctions as punishment of an electorate's democratic choice . . . people have the right to be stupid.

However, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 10:41:21 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 AMHowever, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.
It's getting covered in the UK but not enough, in my view.  But it is disappointing that the main condemnation from politicians has come from the US.  Barosso's made some delicately threatening remarks in an exchange of letters (basically if this goes on the EU won't help you with your debt and the IMF).

Edit:  And fair enough Tamas.  Did they not even vaguely hint at redesigning the state or a new constitution?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 10:43:09 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 AM
Well, I worded myself poorly - I'm against sanctions as punishment of an electorate's democratic choice . . . people have the right to be stupid.

However, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.

I find it quite surprising. Here it gets reported on the front page of the biggest daily (that is not a tabloid).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 10:45:50 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 09:29:04 AMI don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.
I think the Austrian ostracism was wrong, I'm not sure that it would be right in Hungary's case either.

The core difference for me is that Austria was sanctioned because the government brought in a questionable party.  If Hungary were to be sanctioned it would be because over 50% of the electorate voted in a questionable party, which is now enacted its policies.  The people elected the 'wrong' party and now they're delivering what they promised.  That's not the sort of territory I think the EU should head into and is also anti-democratic of itself. 

If this happens then there's a clear precedent.  How anti-democratic must policies be before the EU intervenes?  Is it the EU's role to regulated the checks and balances of internal constitutions (this would after all be an enormous leap) and determine if, say, the independent judiciary is being undermined?

I'm also not sure what the Treaty basis is, what do you think it would be?

As to the ECHR I think that's fair - and I do think the prosecutor being able to choose their judge is against right to a fair trial - but that's for individuals to take to the Court, which is a long process.  Until that happens the ECHR can't do anything and is, anyway, separate from the eU.

They are not delivering what they promised. They are destroying the democratic state in Hungary.

And the obligation to uphold the ECHR is one of the requirements of joining the EU. While the ECJ has no institutional oversight, I don't see how it would be questionable for the EU to impose sanctions over a blatant and sweeping disregard for its rules like this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 10:47:57 AM
There was talk of a new constitution AFTER their victory.  But of course there was no mention of abolishing basic rules of modern democracy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 05, 2012, 01:24:09 AM
While surfing around on The Onion I found this gem:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/archaeologists-discover-worlds-first-guy-named-mar,6744/

QuoteArchaeologists Discover World's First Guy Named Marty

SZEGED, HUNGARY—University of Toronto archaeologists excavating a prehistoric settlement near the Serbian border announced Tuesday that they had unearthed the remains of the earliest known Marty, dating back nearly 9,000 years. "What makes this a significant find is the ancient Marty's features, which suggest he bore a striking resemblance to the Marty of today," said expedition leader Claribel Mollet, who determined the identity of the prehistoric man after carefully analyzing the stoop of his shoulders and the elongated distance between his eye sockets. "At the same site we've uncovered what appear to be dice used for an ancient game of craps, leading us to believe this specimen predates the Martys' split with ancestors of the modern Rick, who eventually moved westward." In 1998, researchers thought they had discovered the first Marty in Azerbaijan, but carbon-dating test results later revealed they had in fact discovered an early Eddie who just looked like a Marty.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
@ Syt :lol:


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:54:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
@ Syt :lol:


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.

I don't think you can do it. I know I had to close down my Belgian account when I was moving back from my secondment in Brussels - under EU law you have to have an account with a place of your residence I believe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 06:03:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
@ Syt :lol:


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.
I've no idea to be honest.  There are expat accounts offered by UK banks, normally based somewhere like Jersey (possibly to avoid rules like Marti just mentioned), but from what I remember you need a lot of money to open one.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Hm, thanks, Austria it is then. Supposedly a lot Magyars have been evacuating their savings there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 05, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Hm, thanks, Austria it is then. Supposedly a lot Magyars have been evacuating their savings there.

I knew they would come crawling back.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fetc.usf.edu%2Fclipart%2F2000%2F2073%2Fau-hungary-flag_2_lg.gif&hash=f2bfdece9a4a2bbf64ee80eae1b16c40366383cc)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 12:06:00 PM
 :lol:

it may prove to be going overboard if we do get the IMF deal, but the general sentiment in the country, at least among the people I hear and read, is perhaps the gloomiest I have ever experienced, and that is quite a thing when you talk about Hungarians. It's quite clear to me that the EU intends the IMF loan as a weapon to coerce Orban into folding his plans of becoming a dictator, but doing so is so against his personality, that receiving that god damn loan appears near impossible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 04:48:48 PM
Just read that Hungarian currency market is pretty much in the state of panic, with people selling forints en masse and opening bank accounts in Austria. The government is warning it is illegal and will crack down on it. Tamas, you may be too late. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:55:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 04:48:48 PM
Just read that Hungarian currency market is pretty much in the state of panic, with people selling forints en masse and opening bank accounts in Austria. The government is warning it is illegal and will crack down on it. Tamas, you may be too late. :(

Nah I didnt hear about the making it illegal part yet.
Either we get the IMF deal or the government sells the euro reserves of the central bank, or both, either way, there should be a brief strengthening of our currency, which will see me appear in an Austrian bank.
The other scenario is that we collapse without an interim strengthening and me and my family are fucked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Tamas, who would win if they held elections today?

Also, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

The people at Paradox are like a bunch of people here in Poland. They are not worth the bullets you'd have to put in their brains.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:11:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

Nice. Btw, I love how the example of the story about an expat opening a bank account abroad uses a Hungarian. :D

Prophetic?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.

According to the news I read, there is a shortage of Euros in Hungary right now so that may be undoable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Tamas, who would win if they held elections today?

FIDESZ, Jobbik second :P
But, like, almost 70% percent of people are undecided in the latest polls.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Also, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?

Could be. Hard to tell really.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:16:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.

According to the news I read, there is a shortage of Euros in Hungary right now so that may be undoable.

It's not that severe. Euro is just at record highs against the forint.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

By the looks of things, it might be better to empty your savings account & buy gold/silver just in case it was problematic transferring to another bank in another country if things are really bad and there was a run on the currency you had the savings in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:16:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.

According to the news I read, there is a shortage of Euros in Hungary right now so that may be undoable.

It's not that severe. Euro is just at record highs against the forint.

I hope you guys collapse fast and something is done. You are making the whole region look bad.

Btw, HSBC is predicting zloty going up against euro and dollar by 20-30% during 2012. I wonder if this is real or are they just unloading some huge quantities of zloty futures soon.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:19:51 PM
Quote from: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

By the looks of things, it might be better to empty your savings account & buy gold/silver just in case it was problematic transferring to another bank in another country if things are really bad and there was a run on the currency you had the savings in.

Isn't gold about to crash?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:19:51 PM
Quote from: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

By the looks of things, it might be better to empty your savings account & buy gold/silver just in case it was problematic transferring to another bank in another country if things are really bad and there was a run on the currency you had the savings in.

Isn't gold about to crash?


Possibly in a normal currency, but not in a dodgy one. You might lose a bit, bit not as much as keeping the savings in such a currency. If there's one thing history tells us, is that nothing moves faster than a currency collapse. Including the speed of light...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
Aren't Austrian banks those with most exposure to Hungary? If Hungary goes bankrupt, they may get problems too. So maybe an Austrian bank is not optimal for you, Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
Aren't Austrian banks those with most exposure to Hungary? If Hungary goes bankrupt, they may get problems too. So maybe an Austrian bank is not optimal for you, Tamas.

I really have no idea what to do. :(

If the situation somehow turns around, there would be significant losses if I had the money in foreign currency.
On the other hand, if there is a collapse, the future of my family may be jeopardized.

Very uncertain situation and I am getting more and more furious by the day to be dragged into this by a generation of post-socialist cowards posing as leaders.

We will make Greece look like a success story, just watch.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Despite living in what is probably the safest Eurozone country at the moment, I also wonder how to protect against a possible currency change. I consider buying real estate. I am late with that though because the prices have already risen considerably in the last year or so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
We will make Greece look like a success story, just watch.

That doesn't seem very farfetched.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 06, 2012, 12:31:44 AM
Is that true?  That Orban is just a right wing version of the left-wingers of Scandinavia?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 12:38:45 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

They let post on the internet after shooting all those people?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:14:54 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Despite living in what is probably the safest Eurozone country at the moment, I also wonder how to protect against a possible currency change. I consider buying real estate. I am late with that though because the prices have already risen considerably in the last year or so.

I have my cash in euro, dollars and zloty (about one third each) and the rest of my assets is in real estate (two flats, one with mortgage; and some silly agricultural land which I bought in case someone wants to build a highway somewhere in the Eastern Poland one day). :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 03:31:30 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Despite living in what is probably the safest Eurozone country at the moment, I also wonder how to protect against a possible currency change. I consider buying real estate. I am late with that though because the prices have already risen considerably in the last year or so.

They have been depressed for quite some time in Germany though, the past decade or two IIRC, might be the early stages of a substantial readjustment  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:

See, with idiotic statements like this you prove that Eastern Europeans can't have good things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:58:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:

See, with idiotic statements like this you prove that Eastern Europeans can't have good things.

I just hate rampant populism buying votes via state spending.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 06, 2012, 04:01:56 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 03:31:30 AMThey have been depressed for quite some time in Germany though, the past decade or two IIRC, might be the early stages of a substantial readjustment  :hmm:
Our population is predicted to decline massively over the next few decades. Long-term real estate except for the very best locations (which I can't afford) doesn't seem such a great investment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:22:22 AM
I'll hold off buying my holiday home in the Harz then  :cool:

Yes, the demographics for Germany are looking very different to what the UK faces.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:26:21 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:22:22 AM

Yes, the demographics for Germany are looking very different to what the UK faces.

which is?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 04:31:20 AM
Population growth.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 06, 2012, 04:34:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:

See, with idiotic statements like this you prove that Eastern Europeans can't have good things.

Cause none of your "boyfriends" would get to vote? :console:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:46:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:26:21 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:22:22 AM

Yes, the demographics for Germany are looking very different to what the UK faces.

which is?

As Sheilbh says  :D

The total fertility rate has been rising for some years, reaching 2.00 in 2009 according to this source http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+total+fertility+rate , and is continuing to rise. There is also considerable net immigration of about 250,000 per annum. Meanwhile, being British  :bowler:, we are failing to build many new houses , only 100k housing starts a year IIRC.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:51:07 AM
And are you managing to meet this population growth with economic growth ie new jobs?
Unless I catch up with my German VERY quickly, your island may be my only chance for a decent life.  :hmm:



BTW, A meeting started between Orban, Matolcsy (the finance minister), Fellegi (who is leading our delegation on the IMF negotiations), and Simor (central bank prez); about two hours ago.

Simor left it an hour ago :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 05:02:56 AM
We've not had the growth recently. But things will get better. I think London's still churning out jobs quicker than it can churn people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 05:10:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:51:07 AM
And are you managing to meet this population growth with economic growth ie new jobs?
Unless I catch up with my German VERY quickly, your island may be my only chance for a decent life.  :hmm:



BTW, A meeting started between Orban, Matolcsy (the finance minister), Fellegi (who is leading our delegation on the IMF negotiations), and Simor (central bank prez); about two hours ago.

Simor left it an hour ago :bleeding:

Your government officials' names suggest they are Ferengi. That would explain a lot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 05:46:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:51:07 AM
And are you managing to meet this population growth with economic growth ie new jobs?

We are having a recession, it is a bit crap atm, but the recession will go away.............it is different to what you fear is happening in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
The IMF requirements have  been allegedly leaked.

Apparently, they want a sustainable budget. The nerves these imperialist jewish pigdogs have!  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
Apparently, they want a sustainable budget.

What?!  PEOPLE OF EUROPE RISE UP!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 06, 2012, 09:51:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
The IMF requirements have  been allegedly leaked.

Apparently, they want a sustainable budget. The nerves these imperialist jewish pigdogs have!  :mad:

A sustainable budget? Why not a space elevator as well? If the peoples of Europe wanted sustainable budgets they would have voted for them decades ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
Apparently, they want a sustainable budget.

What?!  PEOPLE OF EUROPE RISE UP!
Hey, don't associate us with this crazy :P

Interesting perspective by BBC Business Correspondent.  Hungary as symptom of Eurozone crisis:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16439644

I read that the yields on Austrian banks are reaching new highs because of fears about their loans to Hungary so it's cycling back.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:46:08 AM
As Sheilbh says  :D

The total fertility rate has been rising for some years, reaching 2.00 in 2009 according to this source http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+total+fertility+rate , and is continuing to rise. There is also considerable net immigration of about 250,000 per annum. Meanwhile, being British  :bowler:, we are failing to build many new houses , only 100k housing starts a year IIRC.


But you Brits move abroad at huge rates.  You can just start new colonies someplace.  Like in Germany to live in all the  houses vacated by the Master Race Baby Bust.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
But you Brits move abroad at huge rates.  You can just start new colonies someplace.  Like in Germany to live in all the  houses vacated by the Master Race Baby Bust.
We're waiting for the bits of Greece, Spain and Italy that we haven't already colonised (like ants) to empty out :mmm:

Given Italian demographics I imagine Tuscany will just be a sunny bit of the home counties in a few years :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 12:36:48 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

That is an interesting arguement: their policies must be good because they are still in power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:45:37 PM
Two rather good articles from the Economist's tomorrow edition:

To Viktor too many spoils - Europe could do more to stop Hungary's erosion of democratic norms (http://www.economist.com/node/21542414)

The long march of Fidesz Both inside and outside Hungary, alarm is growing over the ruling party's steps to entrench its powers (http://www.economist.com/node/21542422)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

:bleeding: :frusty:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on January 06, 2012, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

:bleeding: :frusty:
Just the kind of emoticons a leftist agitator would use :shifty:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 02:32:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.

And you have long tradition. It's like having a 200 yo lawn vs. one that just got seeded few years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 02:32:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.

And you have long tradition. It's like having a 200 yo lawn vs. one that just got seeded few years ago.

yes
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on January 06, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 06, 2012, 11:59:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

:bleeding: :frusty:

I have to correct: it's also liberal right-wingers (pro-free market) complaining the righteous conservative right-wingers of Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 07, 2012, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 06, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 07, 2012, 04:34:32 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 07, 2012, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 06, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

^_^

Alfred's account has been hacked either by Caliga or Ed Anger  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 09, 2012, 12:25:12 PM
On the request of our resident Polack Shrill Machine, an update:

the forint stabilized a bit below the historic lows, as the government makes gestures which may indicate they might comply with the IMF.

Of course, the IMF does not appear to be starting loan negotiations until some law-cancellations or changings happen. Sadly, they seem to concentrate on the central bank law, which is far from being the only one letting Orban and his gorillas stay in power even if Teh People don't want them.

Orban did appear to be setting up rhetorics for yet another 180 degrees turn in his policies, which will be far from the first one, even during his current governance. In an interview he outlined, in very very, very broad terms, the stuff the IMF is allegedly demanding. Of course, he outlined these as the plans of his own government, plans which have always been clear and pre-determined throughout their governance.

We have always been at war with Eurasia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 09, 2012, 12:29:19 PM
I am not sure what I think about the Beast called "Global Markets". On one hand, it brings down would be despots, like Orban and Berlusconi. On the other hand, it seems completely devoid of any morality and is more of a force of nature. The thing is, the age of sovereign states is over - there is noone in the world who can oppose that Beast, whether with a democratic mandate or not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 09, 2012, 12:29:19 PM
I am not sure what I think about the Beast called "Global Markets". On one hand, it brings down would be despots, like Orban and Berlusconi.
Well the ECB and EU had a hand in bringing down Berlusconi.

QuoteThe thing is, the age of sovereign states is over - there is noone in the world who can oppose that Beast, whether with a democratic mandate or not.
Nonsense.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 12:49:17 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
Nonsense.

All you really have to do to keep global marketeers from having power over you is not need money from them to bail you out.

Sovereign states are perfectly capable of not going into massive debt if that is something they would like to avoid.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 12:49:17 PM
All you really have to do to keep global marketeers from having power over you is not need money from them to bail you out.

Sovereign states are perfectly capable of not going into massive debt if that is something they would like to avoid.
Many of the global marketeers have themselves been bailed out.  In the case of Hungary it's the IMF and the EU that's pushing for change - organisations of governments - not Central European banks that are just trying to cut their exposure.

In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.  But I don't think the nation state is supinely surrendering to the global markets and they certainly don't have to, it's a choice.  I'm also always very suspicious of whiggish claims as to the strength of globalisation as some unstoppable force.  In the past twenty years or so we've only just surpassed the globalisation of pre-WW1.

I think Marti's right that the fundamental division in our politics now isn't left-right so much as globalists-nationalists (roughly, I think you've argued this Marti).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want their money. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 09, 2012, 01:37:52 PM
The Paradox forums keep telling me that things are ok, and that Orban is doing their best to save the country within democratic means, vocal naysayers in opposition and media notwithstanding. Also, 18 months is too short a period to assess their economic policies for success or failure. So I don't know, what Tamas keeps complaining about. :p
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
This struck me as very interesting:
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/from-here-to-eternity-hungarian-style/

Two things in particular intrigue me. 
One is the link between deficits and the end of consumption booms.  I'd like to read more on that at some point, he says there's no theory for it though.
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.  It's not good in Hungary, or any of the Euro-periphery (I think Spain's an exception).  I can't imagine what's going to happen in a country like Greece with near 50% youth unemployment, and an aging, shriking population.  For that matter the demographics aren't very good in the Euro-core (with the exception of France) and even success stories like Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2012, 06:55:57 PM
Very much what Valmy said.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want theirto have any money.

FYPFY  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:03:43 AM
Final fiscal numbers for 2011 are at hand.

We were to keep to a 3% budget deficit. We did.

Thanks to the pensionnationalization. Because without that money (which is mostly spent already) we had a 6.5% deficit.

And so the big question: what the fuck will we do this year? What else to rob? Besides bank accounts? What?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on January 10, 2012, 08:06:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:03:43 AM


And so the big question: what the fuck will we do this year? What else to rob? Besides bank accounts? What?!

Oh, I could think of ways to raise that revenue.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:36:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
This struck me as very interesting:
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/from-here-to-eternity-hungarian-style/

Two things in particular intrigue me. 
One is the link between deficits and the end of consumption booms.  I'd like to read more on that at some point, he says there's no theory for it though.
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.  It's not good in Hungary, or any of the Euro-periphery (I think Spain's an exception).  I can't imagine what's going to happen in a country like Greece with near 50% youth unemployment, and an aging, shriking population.  For that matter the demographics aren't very good in the Euro-core (with the exception of France) and even success stories like Poland.

Very interesting article.
I am subscribing to his deficit idea quite easily (regarding end of consumption booms) because it does echo of what happened here, and  I think the whole phenomenom is just coded into the present economic and political enviroment, which can only be avoided by responsible leaders (something we lack badly).

Also, -with dread- I tend to agree with his long term analysis and conclusion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 08:42:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:03:43 AM
Final fiscal numbers for 2011 are at hand.

We were to keep to a 3% budget deficit. We did.

Thanks to the pensionnationalization. Because without that money (which is mostly spent already) we had a 6.5% deficit.

And so the big question: what the fuck will we do this year? What else to rob? Besides bank accounts? What?!

Nationalize the world-famous porn industry? :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 10, 2012, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want theirto have any money.

FYPFY  ;)

Nonsense.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 10, 2012, 09:50:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.

You're moving the target.  There are plenty of countries that have money without borrowing.

Before you responded you realized that (this is why they pay you the big stacks of zlotys), which is why you changed it to "modern" countries.  But even "modern" countries have experienced times when they were not running deficits.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 09:50:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.

without borrowing for running costs like welfare and pensions? :yeahright: No modern state will survive, then
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:53:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.

Then modernity is a recipe for failure.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.

The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.

Of course the fact the young people who are around are shut out of the work force doesn't help.  How can it be so that in countries with low birth rates and low retirement ages that there are no jobs for young people?  When people retire do jobs just cease to exist with no replacement needed?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:02:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.

The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.

The poorest strata (called gypsies) did heed the call though and are breeding like rabbits.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:05:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:02:46 AM
The poorest strata (called gypsies) did heed the call though and are breeding like rabbits.

They are?  Then what is the birth rate for ethnic Hungarians then?  1 kid for every 8 women?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.

The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.

Why the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:

Besides, people are having enough kids. Europe is overcrowded. The problem is that people live longer so the old retirement models do not really work anymore. The solution is not for people to breed more.  :huh:

Again, you are usually a smart, reasonable guy, Valmy, but sometimes you say stupid shit like a Tim.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Also, except for a brief period of baby boom in the 1950s, I don't think the Western world has really seen the demographic explosion compared to which we are now supposedly seeing a decline.

Sure, back in the old days, people were having many more children than today, but both child and female birth mortality was much higher, and the human life expectancy was lower, due to wars and other stuff like that. (My dad, born in 1935, was the youngest of 13 children. Only he and one of his brother had any kids though because everyone else either died in infancy or didn't make it through the war - so it's no different than having 2 kids today).

The population exploded in the 1950s because people were still breeding like in the 1940s and 1930s but scientific advances increased life expectancy significantly, but shortly after that the human replacement figures went back to normal, because people adjusted their breeding behaviour to a new situation.

The population is aging because people do not die at 50 anymore, but people expect to retire at 60 like 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.
Well one reason is that Euros often hear this in the context of Eurabia, so we switch off.  But it's not a Euro-wide problem.  I think Scandinavia, the UK and France are all okay and, until recently, so were Spain and Ireland.  It's been a problem for a few countries in Old Europe - Germany and Italy especially - but the worst demographics are in New Europe, which is rather odd.

QuoteWhy the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:
I think the idea that your kids will be there to support you is a big part of having tbem.  It may not take the grand social analysis but it amounts to the same.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Also, except for a brief period of baby boom in the 1950s, I don't think the Western world has really seen the demographic explosion compared to which we are now supposedly seeing a decline.

I certainly think a baby boom would be disastrous.  I am just talking about replacement level, enough to keep the home fires burning and the pension money coming in.  If the Western World had historically reproduced at modern Germany levels there would be no Western World today.  If everybody was having two kids today they would be ideal.

1.8-2.2 is the sweet spot, anything higher or lower there are going to be problems...but granted lower is probably much better in the short term than higher.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.
Well one reason is that Euros often hear this in the context of Eurabia, so we switch off.  But it's not a Euro-wide problem.  I think Scandinavia, the UK and France are all okay and, until recently, so were Spain and Ireland.  It's been a problem for a few countries in Old Europe - Germany and Italy especially - but the worst demographics are in New Europe, which is rather odd.

QuoteWhy the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:
I think the idea that your kids will be there to support you is a big part of having tbem.  It may not take the grand social analysis but it amounts to the same.

I don't think so. I think people in the West now largely marry and decide to have kids for personal/emotional levels. I don't think many people, at least conciously, make these decisions in terms of investment/security.

This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Why the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:

I am not sure where race came into this.  I am talking about sane national policies not some weird...whatever you are talking about.  Having shrinking generations is not a bad thing.  Having tons of kids is, of course, even worse as that tends to create poverty and crime.  But having too few and you face a pretty bleak future.

How is that stupid shit?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:22:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Also, except for a brief period of baby boom in the 1950s, I don't think the Western world has really seen the demographic explosion compared to which we are now supposedly seeing a decline.

I certainly think a baby boom would be disastrous.  I am just talking about replacement level, enough to keep the home fires burning and the pension money coming in.  If the Western World had historically reproduced at modern Germany levels there would be no Western World today.  If everybody was having two kids today they would be ideal.

1.8-2.2 is the sweet spot, anything higher or lower there are going to be problems...but granted lower is probably much better in the short term than higher.

Most of my (upper) middle class colleagues who are married and have kids, have usually 2 or 3. I think the statistics are brought down by people who are single and/or childless rather than people who have 1 kid only. You cannot really force people to breed or marry in a modern liberal society.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Why the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:

I am not sure where race came into this.  I am talking about sane national policies not some weird...whatever you are talking about.  Having shrinking generations is not a bad thing.  Having tons of kids is, of course, even worse as that tends to create poverty and crime.  But having too few and you face a pretty bleak future.

How is that stupid shit?

As Sheilbh pointed out, this kind of rhetorics is almost exclusively the domain of right winger racists/white supremacists in Europe. So when you say we have been hearing about declining birth rates for decades, it may be true, but we  have been hearing this almost only from the likes of Le Pen.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:26:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.

Spoken like a true Orbanite. I can now see why your country is such a shit-stain.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:26:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:22:40 AM
Most of my (upper) middle class colleagues who are married and have kids, have usually 2 or 3. I think the statistics are brought down by people who are single and/or childless rather than people who have 1 kid only. You cannot really force people to breed or marry in a modern liberal society.

Nor am I suggesting people do so.  I guess I figured if people were hearing their culture was nearing a crisis because of a pending demographic disaster, and indeed this has been repeated fairly often for about twenty years now, they might consider having another one or two.  Or maybe they are and it just is not enough.  Or as you said it tends to be packaged in 'OMG TEH MASTER RACE NEEDS MOAR'.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:27:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:25:28 AM
As Sheilbh pointed out, this kind of rhetorics is almost exclusively the domain of right winger racists/white supremacists in Europe. So when you say we have been hearing about declining birth rates for decades, it may be true, but we  have been hearing this almost only from the likes of Le Pen.

Ah got it.  No I am not talking about that.  It is not like only white countries have demographic problems in either direction.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:29:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.

Well I certainly feel that way.  Family is everything to me.  But that is just a personal preference.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:33:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:29:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.

Well I certainly feel that way.  Family is everything to me.  But that is just a personal preference.

We do instinctively need some kind of tribal affiliation though. Otherwise there would be no things like sport club loyalty and other side-effects of this. Not to mention religious wars and nationalism.
So again, Marty is wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:33:37 AMWe do instinctively need some kind of tribal affiliation though. Otherwise there would be no things like sport club loyalty and other side-effects of this. Not to mention religious wars and nationalism.
So again, Marty is wrong.

Not really. It just shows that within your society, Orban is right. And if he is right and the tribe/family is everything, then indeed he is right to effectively destroy the highly individualistic personal pension accounts and use it for the betterment of the community, because this money is not needed and you are expected to rely on your family and tribe instead (the fruits of your labour belong to the tribe, not you).

It's actually quite funny because you now bemoan how Orban is destroying your freedom and property, but your political views are really in line with what he preaches. He is a racist, you are a racist (against gypsies for example). He has a tribalistic, family-oriented communitarian mentality and you obviously have it too. So stop moaning for being ruled by someone who shares your views, but only drawing them to their logical conclusions.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:33:37 AMWe do instinctively need some kind of tribal affiliation though. Otherwise there would be no things like sport club loyalty and other side-effects of this. Not to mention religious wars and nationalism.
So again, Marty is wrong.

Not really. It just shows that within your society, Orban is right. And if he is right and the tribe/family is everything, then indeed he is right to effectively destroy the highly individualistic personal pension accounts and use it for the betterment of the community, because this money is not needed and you are expected to rely on your family and tribe instead (the fruits of your labour belong to the tribe, not you).

It's actually quite funny because you now bemoan how Orban is destroying your freedom and property, but your political views are really in line with what he preaches. He is a racist, you are a racist (against gypsies for example). He has a tribalistic, family-oriented communitarian mentality and you obviously have it too. So stop moaning for being ruled by someone who shares your views, but only drawing them to their logical conclusions.

take your meds, dude
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 11:10:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
Not really. It just shows that within your society, Orban is right. And if he is right and the tribe/family is everything, then indeed he is right to effectively destroy the highly individualistic personal pension accounts and use it for the betterment of the community, because this money is not needed and you are expected to rely on your family and tribe instead (the fruits of your labour belong to the tribe, not you).

It's actually quite funny because you now bemoan how Orban is destroying your freedom and property, but your political views are really in line with what he preaches. He is a racist, you are a racist (against gypsies for example). He has a tribalistic, family-oriented communitarian mentality and you obviously have it too. So stop moaning for being ruled by someone who shares your views, but only drawing them to their logical conclusions.

I was not aware being family oriented meant being against freedom and property :hmm:

I mean while we are all born with families and in communities they are voluntary associations...at least once you become an adult :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
I agree with Orban, Valmy and Tamas.

Edit:  This reminds me of a paper the Scandi governments put forward for some international conference.  They basically said that society is defined by interactions in a triangle of State-Family-Individual. 

Again I'm doing immense violence to this, I'll have a look for it because it's quite interesting.  They identified the US as a society in which the strongest tie was the Family-Individual; the state takes a smaller role, but family and individuality are tied.  Germany on the other hand has a system that emphasises State-Family ties; the state plays a large role in encouraging family, there's tax sharing for couples, all sorts of generous child benefits, whereas there's far less support available for individuals from either - the emphasis is on the family together.  They argued that Scandinavia was generally State-Individuals; their policy is a strong state that supports individuals to do anything and, if they want, break away from their family or not have one.

As I say I'll try and find the report because it's interesting and I'm really not doing it justice.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Make a fiery speech on an opposition rally, destroy your son's career?

IIRC, I mentioned after the big demonstration on the 2nd of January, that a well-known lawtalker, former ombudsman, made a speech on it, warning Orban that it has more honor to leave as a former PM defeated in a democratic election, than flee as a fallen dictator.

Apparently, he has a 37 years old son, who is a historian of some note, having written various books and pucblications, mostly about the Kadar-era. He has been already teaching at some colleges and universities, but won a new job application to one of the colleges.

Now, law says, that the Prime Minister must confirm every new college professor in his job. This has been a mere formality (even during communist years, altough during that time, if you weren't trusted, you never got accepted on the job app. in the first place).

Except now, this guy, Martonyi, got rejected by Orban. Well, to be more precise, his confirmation letter has not been signed. There has been no comment on the reason.
But it is not hard to imagine, falls in perfectly with how Orban and his cronies has been fighting their "enemies" at every level, from the top of country-wide politics, to small town councils.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
I agree with Orban, Valmy and Tamas.

Edit:  This reminds me of a paper the Scandi governments put forward for some international conference.  They basically said that society is defined by interactions in a triangle of State-Family-Individual. 

Again I'm doing immense violence to this, I'll have a look for it because it's quite interesting.  They identified the US as a society in which the strongest tie was the Family-Individual; the state takes a smaller role, but family and individuality are tied.  Germany on the other hand has a system that emphasises State-Family ties; the state plays a large role in encouraging family, there's tax sharing for couples, all sorts of generous child benefits, whereas there's far less support available for individuals from either - the emphasis is on the family together.  They argued that Scandinavia was generally State-Individuals; their policy is a strong state that supports individuals to do anything and, if they want, break away from their family or not have one.

As I say I'll try and find the report because it's interesting and I'm really not doing it justice.

So you are essentially agreeing with what I said - i.e. that the social progress e.g. in countries like Scandinavia makes the family unnecessary.

I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:05:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.

If it requires massive government intervention to do so I am pretty cool with it being irreplaceable (not saying it is, I do not know, I just know I have no interest in replacing mine).  Are we talking about on a massive society wide scale?  Because I am pretty sure it is not that hard for individuals to decide their family is not working for them and I am pretty sure there are still lots of tight knit families in Scandinavia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:13:35 PM
I am arguing that there are certain things which are beyond our total rational control. Sex, agression, etc. You can control them but control rather means chanelling it to socially acceptable venues (do note that I think we do that for survival instincts, not to please society. ie. you don't hit an annoying guy because you fear the legal reprecussions, not because it would make Mrs. Margery at the next table upset).

The "need for a tribe", or a family, the need to belong is one such thing. You of all people on this forum should not deny that, with your passionate waving of the gay issue's flag.

Family comes as a natural, instinctive "prime loyalty" for most. Then later, one way or the other, their relationship to this family becomes a matter of an irrational individual decision - like almost anything in life.

Now, you may like or dislike that certain individuals decide that there are other individuals whose health and happiness are more important to them than their own. But so it happens, that the family is still the prime unit of our social construct, and for a lot, their personal identities.

If anything, this aspect must be INCREASING with the so called "atomization" of society, with the noticable decline of importance of the larger community (you have the TV and Internet to replace that), the nation, or religion (in the developed world at least).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:05:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.

If it requires massive government intervention to do so I am pretty cool with it being irreplaceable (not saying it is, I do not know, I just know I have no interest in replacing mine).  Are we talking about on a massive society wide scale?  Because I am pretty sure it is not that hard for individuals to decide their family is not working for them and I am pretty sure there are still lots of tight knit families in Scandinavia.

I think his argument is that modern people ought to cut ties of loyalty and love. Or something.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
So you are essentially agreeing with what I said - i.e. that the social progress e.g. in countries like Scandinavia makes the family unnecessary.

I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.
I still think you're wrong.  I don't think atomisation has gone to that extent - and I think the process may now be reversing - but also the State-Individual axis requires society.  It can't work in your radically atomised vision.  Also I don't think there is a set route of 'social progress' which leads to any necessary conclusions.  These are all valid options and different societies will advance in different ways.

Here's the paper:
http://www.scribd.com/Davos-The-nordic-way-final/d/47937407
The relevant bit is the essay 'Social trust and radical individualism'.  It's effectively the Pippi Longstocking state.

Edit: 
Relevant bits:
QuoteThis emphasis on social solidarity hides the strong, not to say extreme, individualism that denes social relations andpolitical institutions in the Nordic countries. In-deed, it is precisely the fundamental harmony between the Nordic social contract and the basicprinciples of the market – that the basic unit of society is the individual and a central purpose of policy should be to maximize individual autono-my and social mobility – that we see as the key to the vitality of Nordic capitalism.
...
Though the path hasn't always beenstraight, one can discernover the course of the twen-tieth century an overarch-ing ambition in the Nordiccountries not to socialize theeconomy but to liberate theindividual citizen from allforms of subordination anddependency within the fam-ily and in civil society: the poor from charity, the workers from their employers, wives from theirhusbands, children from parents – and vice versa when the parents become elderly.
...
All in all this legislation has made the Nordiccountries into the least family-dependent andmost individualized societies on the face of theearth. To be sure, the family remains a centralsocial institution in the Nordic countries, but ittoo is infused with the same moral logic stressing autonomy and equality. The ideal family is madeup of adults who work and are not nancially dependent on the other, and children who areencouraged to be as independent as early as pos-sible. Rather than undermining "family values"this could be interpreted as a modernization of the family as a social institution.
...
There an emphasis on individualautonomy coincides with a positive view of the state as an ally of not only weaker andmore vulnerable citizens, but the citizenry atlarge. This is coupled with a negative view of unequal power relations between individualsin general and hierarchical institutions in par-ticular, such as the traditional patriarchal fam-ily and demeaning charitable organizations incivil society. In this regard, the Nordic modeldiffers from both their Anglo-American andcontinental European counterparts.
...
In the U.S., individual (rights) andfamily (values) trump the state (always seenas threat to liberty). In Germany, nally, thecentral axis is the one connecting state andfamily, with a much smaller role of eitherU.S.-style individual rights or a Nordic em-phasis on individual autonomy.
...
According to what we have called "a Swedishtheory of love", authentic relationships of loveand friendship are only possible between in-dividuals who do not depend on each other orstand in unequal power relations. Thus auton-omy, equality and (statist) individualism areinextricably linked to each other. Whateverpolitical and cultural drawbacks there mightbe to this commitment to per-sonal autonomy, a strong stateand social equality – the usualcriticisms are conformity, lone-liness and an intrusive bureau-cracy – one should note the upside: citizens, who feel empowered, accept the demands of modernity and are willing to make compro-mises to achieve economic efciency and ra-tional decision-making.
...
Specic British and American experi-ences of modernization have been generalizedinto historical truths that have been appliedto other cultures, sometimes with great suc-cess but also with astounding failures. Thepoint is not that it is wrong in principal to try to emulate other successful cultures (how else is mankind to learn anything?), but ratherthat we should do so with great deliberationand – most importantly – not assume a priorithat only one kind of capitalism is relevant asa source of inspiration.
...
1.
Nordic capitalism shows that individualismneed not lead to social fragmentation, dis-trust and short-term maximization of material interests. Promoting individual autonomy through policy can, on the contrary, lead togreater social cohesion if it is done in an egali-tarian way. Less dependence and weaker patri-archal structures means that more people feelempowered and satised with their lives. Thisis especially relevant for women, who want toparticipate in the labor market without relin-quishing the possibility of becoming moth-ers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
I think his argument is that modern people ought to cut ties of loyalty and love. Or something.

Ok.  For what purpose?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
I would say family is still the basic unit of society except that family does no longer mean married couple with two children, but can take different forms too. It seems natural that humans have close emotional bonds to their relatives.

Our social system is geared towards that too. They will always make the family pay first and only then society at-large. My grandmother had to pay for the elderly care of her father for a year or two before he died despite not having seen him for decades before that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2012, 12:30:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Now, law says, that the Prime Minister must confirm every new college professor in his job.

lolwut?

:P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2012, 12:30:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Now, law says, that the Prime Minister must confirm every new college professor in his job.

lolwut?

:P

don't look at me, that was the way by the time I was born here :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on January 10, 2012, 12:34:13 PM
How many new proffessors do you have in a year?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 10, 2012, 12:34:13 PM
How many new proffessors do you have in a year?

no idea
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 01:11:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2012, 12:30:28 PM
lolwut?

:P
Weird :mellow:

Still the PM here appoints Bishops.  It's mostly just him approving the Church's choice (he actually does about the Archbishop of Canterbury).  It only looks odd when the convention's broken, as Orban has.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
Our federal president appoints all federal employees. Of course he is allowed to delegate that authority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 01:22:45 PM
The article almost makes it sound like the big difference between Germany, the US, and Scandinavia is that women have jobs in Scandinavia.  I find that quite perplexing.  I could see that being brought up as something characteristic of the Western World but just for Scandinavia?  Besides that what do these big individualizing policies consist of and how do they manifest?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 01:57:37 PM
Also, a side issue, the Budapest mass transit company (owned by the city of course), BKV, has a lot of debt to repay this year, first one coming on the 27th of this month, around 29-30 million euros worth of money (the 27th of january one, it is just a portion of the whole).

They don't have a dime. They have even stopped buying replacement parts and materials since a few weeks.

So they need money. From the state. Which doesn't want to give. I don't say I don't understand, but supposedly, the legal chainreaction of BKV's default would basically bankrupt Budapest, because the cancelled contracts, and cancelled EU money on the subsequently cancelled 4th metro line building would amount to a whooping cost of about 1.5 billion euros.

I am near the point where I will just laugh on all of this, as decades of indecision, incompetence and corruption just collapse on the heads of everyone.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2012, 02:13:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
I would say family is still the basic unit of society except that family does no longer mean married couple with two children, but can take different forms too. It seems natural that humans have close emotional bonds to their relatives.

Our social system is geared towards that too. They will always make the family pay first and only then society at-large. My grandmother had to pay for the elderly care of her father for a year or two before he died despite not having seen him for decades before that.

:yes:

Very few people try to maintain no associations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 01:22:45 PM
The article almost makes it sound like the big difference between Germany, the US, and Scandinavia is that women have jobs in Scandinavia.  I find that quite perplexing.  I could see that being brought up as something characteristic of the Western World but just for Scandinavia?  Besides that what do these big individualizing policies consist of and how do they manifest?  :hmm:
I don't know.  It's a small part of a 15 page contribution to Davos.  It caused a stir and references a paper called 'Pippi Longstocking: The Autonomous Child and the Moral Logic of the Swedish Welfare State', which I can't find (edit:  can't find online, it's in an interesting sounding book), and in turn inspired a book called 'Is The Swede A Human?' :lol:

Pippi after all lives without parents, with a monkey and does whatever she wants.  You couldn't get much more radical individualism.  I found this post on the whole issue quite interesting:
http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/283573/highly-abstract-post-left-and-right-reihan-salam

Having said that I believe female participation in Scandinavia does tend to be higher than everywhere else in the world, and has been for many years.  One of the things that would probably help Italy and Greece in the longterm is greater female participation in the economy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:10:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
I think his argument is that modern people ought to cut ties of loyalty and love. Or something.

Ok.  For what purpose?
It's not my argument.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:16:56 PM
My argument is that in modern societies people can survive and do well on their own with no family and offspring if they choose to do so (something impossible in less developed societies). A significant number of them makes that choice, which is responsible for less births to a greater degree than married people having less children is. So if, for whatever reason, you wanted more children to be born, telling married people to have more children is completely missing the target audience.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on January 10, 2012, 05:21:07 PM
Couldn't this be fixed by one good beet harvest?

The hungarian problem I mean, not the demographic problem.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:24:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2012, 02:13:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
I would say family is still the basic unit of society except that family does no longer mean married couple with two children, but can take different forms too. It seems natural that humans have close emotional bonds to their relatives.

Our social system is geared towards that too. They will always make the family pay first and only then society at-large. My grandmother had to pay for the elderly care of her father for a year or two before he died despite not having seen him for decades before that.

:yes:

Very few people try to maintain no associations.

But that's not the point of my argument. We started from talking about demographics, less births than in the past and how people don't breed, and how people used to rely on their offspring for their retirement - it should be clear from the context that if I responded to that by referring to starting/having a family, I meant one's spouse and children and not alternative families.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The thing is, while the majority still prefers to have spouses and children, there is a significant minority in Western societies that makes more or less of a conscious choice not to - whether because they are rugged individualists like CdM, crazy like Raz or gay like me.

In the past people needed to form families because if they didn't they would either simply die, or if not would face significant hardships in their old age or at least significant level of social ostracism.

Now, the progress of the society has removed most, if not all, of these barriers in the West and it emerged that the people mentioned above (who, I'd dare say, form between 20% and 30% of the population) are simply not interested in breeding. This, imo, is the reason why the statistical birth rate is dropping - and hearing about demographic downturn that Valmy referred to is not going to change these people's minds.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on January 10, 2012, 05:54:05 PM
How far back are we going here Marty?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The thing is, while the majority still prefers to have spouses and children, there is a significant minority in Western societies that makes more or less of a conscious choice not to - whether because they are rugged individualists like CdM, crazy like Raz or gay like me.
Except the gay aren't making a conscious choice, though you may have.  We're in no position to know what'll happen with the gays because they were to a large extent excluded from family for a long time.  That's changed and I don't know where it'll end.  You could be right or we could be about to see the emergence of homo-families.

I also think that this isn't a 'Western' thing.  Significant parts of the 'West' don't have a demographic crisis: the Anglos, the Scandis and the French especially.  It's something that's been most sever in post-Communist countries and Southern Europe, with Germany also having problems.  I think you're as best looking at what's happened in those countries, or in the fecund countries rather than generalising about gays and rugged individualists opting out of family life in the West - not least because you actually make us sound like a danger to family, which isn't the case however much you'd like it to be so :P

Edit:  Also I do think couples choosing to have smaller families rather than opting out has been a big part of the shift.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2012, 07:06:27 PM
20-30% of people are not interested in having kids? :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:04:26 AM
Okaaaay, let's put this polish gay self-confirmation seeking aside and return to the topic.

Reportedly, FIDESZ leadership debated these past days the necessity to hold a demonstration of their own, showing off that they still have big support. I was wondering if they would actually do it, since it does pose some risk.

Well, it looks like it is not coming by an official FIDESZ march, but rather by a "civilian organization", called "Peace March for Hungary".

"The Hungarian people already witnessed the horrible consequences of the abroad's disdain, in front of the judges of Trianon. We don't want this to repeat"

The right's most prominent "radical" journalist put it this way:
"The people stand and wait. They feel in their guts that this is their government, and that if this government can be overthrown by the IMF, the bastard Le Monde, and the stupid politicans of the West, then they [teh people] will also be overthrown. The magyar way of living will be overthrown. Then we will stay lotus-eating pigs [?], except that the lotus will be limited, because we have been too hedonist, and consumed too much"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com%2Fimages01%2F95%2F853cfe0df9f2935bbc6916c2bd904c4a%2Fl.jpg&hash=1523c03e263dbcb61aff594550e2e7daba33af95)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:24:54 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The thing is, while the majority still prefers to have spouses and children, there is a significant minority in Western societies that makes more or less of a conscious choice not to - whether because they are rugged individualists like CdM, crazy like Raz or gay like me.
Except the gay aren't making a conscious choice, though you may have. 

Err, of course gays are making a conscious choice not to enter into heterosexual marriages and not to breed.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.

So why would the IMF give you a loan for doing something you already do?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 07:01:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.

So why would the IMF give you a loan for doing something you already do?  :huh:

you srsly looking for logic in right-wint frothing on gays?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 07:15:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.

So why would the IMF give you a loan for doing something you already do?  :huh:

:lol: I was wrong: this gay marriage rumour was not started by the mob itself: it was started by 'Magyar Nemzet' the de facto official FIDESZ newspaper.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 11, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:04:26 AM
Well, it looks like it is not coming by an official FIDESZ march, but rather by a "civilian organization", called "Peace March for Hungary".

"The Hungarian people already witnessed the horrible consequences of the abroad's disdain, in front of the judges of Trianon. We don't want this to repeat"
On the theme of Hungarian emo self-harm, from the Economist:
QuoteNot just a rap on the knuckles

Jan 11th 2012, 19:23 by A.L.B. | BUDAPEST

THE pressure is piling up on the beleaguered Hungarian government. Today the European Commission threatened it with legal action over several new "cardinal" laws that would require a two-thirds majority in parliament to overturn.

The commission is still considering the laws, but today it highlighted concerns over three issues:

- The independence of the central bank. Late last year the Hungarian parliament passed a law which expands the monetary council and takes the power to nominate deputies away from the governor and hands it to the prime minister. A separate law opens the door to a merger between the bank and the financial regulator.

- The judiciary. More than 200 judges over the age of 62 have been forced into retirement and hundreds more face the sack. The new National Judicial Authority is headed by Tünde Handó, a friend of the family of Viktor Orbán, the prime minister.

- The independence of the national data authority.

That wasn't all the commission had to say today. Hungary also received a ticking-off from Olli Rehn (pictured), the economic-affairs commissioner, for not doing enough to tackle its budget deficit. It may now lose access to EU funds.

Slammed in Brussels, the Hungarian government is also under pressure at home. Earlier this week Gordon Bajnai, who served as Socialist prime minister from 2009-10, fired off a broadside that sent shockwaves through the political and media establishments.

After a year and a half of government by the right-wing Fidesz party, wrote Mr Bajnai in a lengthy article on the website of the Patriotism and Progress Public Policy Foundation, democracy has been destroyed in Hungary. The country, he warned, is scarred by division and is drifting towards bankruptcy and away from Europe.

Mr Bajnai called for a radical change of government and a complete political re-orientation. "A new government must have a programme readily at hand that can be applied without delay: a programme that promotes the republic, reconciliation, and recovery."

Fidesz is rattled by Mr Bajnai, who since leaving office has been teaching at Columbia University in New York. Understandably so. He headed a technocratic administration which stabilised the economy. Unlike his Socialist predecessor, Ferenc Gyurcsány, he was neither part of the old Communist elite nor connected to it by marriage, and so cannot be smeared as a "Komcsi". He is modern in outlook and well regarded internationally.

Moreover, say those how know him, Mr Bajnai has little patience for the narcissistic exceptionalism that shapes Fidesz's worldview. Exhibit A: the plaintive cry of János Martonyi, the foreign minister, who lamented recently: "The world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds." Such self-pity is unlikely to endear the Hungarian government to Brussels or Washington DC (to where it has sent an envoy this week to negotiate with the IMF).

Fidesz won a two-thirds majority in 2010. But its support is evaporating, and analysts say there is a gap in the political market for a centrist pro-business party committed to democratic norms. Mr Bajnai, who has not ruled out a return to politics, would be an obvious candidate to lead it.

Meanwhile, as Hungarians watch the value of their assets vaporise, in large part thanks to the government's increasingly erratic policies, Mr Orbán smirks his way through press conferences. Here he is dodging questions from a reporter from HVG, an economics weekly, about his responsibility for the crisis and trying to shift the blame to his old enemy András Simor, president of the central bank. The interview ran as follows:

hvg.hu: Do you feel responsible for the falling/weakening forint?

Mr Orbán: You mean the president of the central bank? He did not comment on it.

hvg.hu: No, you, Mr prime minister!

Mr Orbán: The personal responsibility of the president of the central bank was not discussed over the meeting.

hvg.hu: You, your personal...!

Mr Orbán: That neither.

Surrounded by yes-men and grinning flunkies, Mr Orbán seems increasingly out of touch. His future will likely be decided not in the gilded corridors of the Hungarian parliament, but in Brussels and Washington DC.

What happens next? If his hand is forced Mr Orbán can probably endure policy reversals on the independence of the central bank and the data ombudsman. Sorry, he would say to his loyal followers: national crisis, what can you do.

The dismantling of the judiciary would be another matter. If outsiders keep up the pressure and the judicial changes are judged to be in breach of the EU treaty, Mr Orbán would be in a tricky spot. It's hard to see how he could declare the 200-plus judges his government has forced into retirement ready for office after all, and still sit in his own.
I love this line: 'the world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds.'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 11, 2012, 09:41:59 PM
The 'magyar way of living'?  While Europe has cracked down on banditry, I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to keep the Hungarians from whining about their betters and being indistinguishable from gypsies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 11, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
I love this line: 'the world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds.'


:cool: That's just a capsule of feeling all warm and Magyar inside.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
Bajnai: he is on the list to be discredited by corruption trials, it is just delaying as most of these cases, since they can't really come up with evidence (the Hungarian elite was smart enough to make their stealings legal so it would be kinda' hard to make it appear illegal), so maybe that is one of the reasons he is coming back to politics - seeking shelter in publicity.


Otherwise, his name regularly comes up, as it was during his short reign that we climbed back from the edge of bankrupcy.

In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.

Errr, if you are part of a nation of untermensch, the smartest thing you can do is to do what others tell you.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 12, 2012, 02:58:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 11, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
I love this line: 'the world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds.'


:cool: That's just a capsule of feeling all warm and Magyar inside.

I guess everyone in Hungary wears black and lots of eyeshadow all the time  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.
Errr, if you are part of a nation of untermensch, the smartest thing you can do is to do what others tell you.  :huh:
You guys are even worse, you filthy Russian.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 10:02:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.

But the ting is - the secrets to good government aren't exactly all that mysterious or difficult.  Keep your books balanced, moderate regulation, make sure your taxes aren't punitive.  It's just that so many governments can't resist trying to do more than that and wind up in trouble.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PDH on January 12, 2012, 10:05:56 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 10:02:53 AM
But the ting is - the secrets to good government aren't exactly all that mysterious or difficult.  Keep your books balanced, moderate regulation, make sure your taxes aren't punitive.  It's just that so many governments can't resist trying to do more than that and wind up in trouble.

:rolleyes:  Whatever, Edmund.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 10:02:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.

But the ting is - the secrets to good government aren't exactly all that mysterious or difficult.  Keep your books balanced, moderate regulation, make sure your taxes aren't punitive.  It's just that so many governments can't resist trying to do more than that and wind up in trouble.

You are right, except that then you have a populist charismatic asshole stand up and say "we should care for our poor pipple! we should let the seniors use mass transit for free! we should support the youth in buying housese! we should make higher education free! we should pay more pensions! we should decrease energy prices by state degree!"

and he wins the election.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.
Are they?  It doesn't seem like that's possible anymore.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 11:50:09 AM
With sufficient tax revenue they're very possible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.

Given sufficient tax income yes. Which of course must be carefully and responsibly balanced so it does not suffocate the economy on the long term.

And in case of economic hardships, severe cuts to these welfare spendings must be made, sometimes maybe on short notice, to ensure the longevity of the system.

Do we really, REALLY think this (the selfless and responsible spending of untold amounts of money, over generations) is managable by us humans? By the political class in general?
Example shows we can't. Everyone is flocking to German bonds because Germany is the exception, not the rule.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 12:02:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 12, 2012, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.
Errr, if you are part of a nation of untermensch, the smartest thing you can do is to do what others tell you.  :huh:
You guys are even worse, you filthy Russian.

No real argument there. We have been always doing what others told us. The gist of it is that we finally understand that doing what Brussels and Berlin tell us is better for us than doing what Moscow, London, Washington DC or Vatican tell us.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:02:53 PM
Besides, you detracked me. :P

My original point was that no matter what you do, a populist can outpromise you on state spending, given a juvenile enough population. Juvenile in terms of political culture and fiscal education.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.

How can you dictate prices by decree in a responsible way?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 12:19:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 12:02:34 PM
No real argument there. We have been always doing what others told us. The gist of it is that we finally understand that doing what Brussels and Berlin tell us is better for us than doing what Moscow, London, Washington DC or Vatican tell us.
I meant you personally.  Now do what I tell you to do and hit yourself over the head with the heaviest Apple product in the room.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 12:19:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 11:50:09 AM
With sufficient tax revenue they're very possible.
But then the populist has to up the ante.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
How can you dictate prices by decree in a responsible way?
Well nothing really can be done reasonably by decree.  Process matters and I hadn't really read that one.

Having said that, governments can influence energy prices and should - in this country I think we've got an oligopoly of utility providers who should probably get attacked by the regulator to promote competition.

QuoteDo we really, REALLY think this (the selfless and responsible spending of untold amounts of money, over generations) is managable by us humans? By the political class in general?
Example shows we can't. Everyone is flocking to German bonds because Germany is the exception, not the rule.
Of course it's manageable and it can only be managed by the political class.  It's either them or 'technocrats'.  Politics needs a strong dose populism to work in a remotely democratic way.  The danger for me doesn't tend to be on the fiscal side in general but when the government tries to massage the economy too much - for example what seems to be going on in Turkey right now, or New Labour's third term, that leads to real problems.

You're using the example of over generations, I think by that criteria France, Germany, the Anglo-Saxon world and Northern Europe have more or less managed this in a relatively responsible way, most of the time.  They've all been able to make adjustments and respond to different economic situations in different ways.  I've got a lot of faith in democracy,  I think it genuinely works and the electorate is almost always right.

It's worked with less success in states that are built on corruption - I think this was the nature of post-war Italian politics, it was more Latin America than Europe in many ways - and it's too soon to tell in younger democracies.  But generally I think they right themselves.  Poland will comfortably grow, Spain will come back and though this regime's a nightmare I think Hungary'll work out too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
QuotePolitics needs a strong dose populism to work in a remotely democratic way

Why? I mean, I know why. Because the plebs are stupid. But why should we accept this as something good and okay? Why should we be content with the fate of a nation being in the hands of it's lowest? The poorest and least educated?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:30:27 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
QuotePolitics needs a strong dose populism to work in a remotely democratic way

Why? I mean, I know why. Because the plebs are stupid. But why should we accept this as something good and okay? Why should we be content with the fate of a nation being in the hands of it's lowest? The poorest and least educated?
Because more often than not they get it right.  Also without a connection between governors and governed you'll end up with an elite serving their own interests - which are not those of most people or, necessarily, the country.  The reaction against elitist rule will always be a far stronger, more virulent populism.  The two should temper one another, if you give into one then you'll end up with the other as strongly - Hungary is an example of that in the move from technocracy to populism.  I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens in Greece, Ireland and Italy.

The EU is probably the most anti-populist and elitist institution in the free world.  With the exception of Hungary (sorry :() I'd probably trust any democratically elected government over the Troika of Commission, ECB and IMF.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
What a terrible, terrible example Shelf.  The IMF is not in the business of making judgement calls, it's in the business of getting countries in shape so they can reaccess private capital markets.  Your beloved populists are on the streets of Athens without a clue in the world about credit worthiness.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:41:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
What a terrible, terrible example Shelf.  The IMF is not in the business of making judgement calls, it's in the business of getting countries in shape so they can reaccess private capital markets.  Your beloved populists are on the streets of Athens without a clue in the world about credit worthiness.
What's do you mean by judgement calls?

Having said that I don't mind the IMF.  I'm attacking the EU and its elements in the Troika, the IMF is, I think the best of the three.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:41:57 PM
What's do you mean by judgement calls?

Having said that I don't mind the IMF.  I'm attacking the EU and its elements in the Troika, the IMF is, I think the best of the three.

I mean things like the choice between fewer public services or lower taxes.  That's a question of taste.  Running gigantic deficits forever and ever is not a question of taste, it's a metaphysical impossibility.  Populists who think you can are just wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:51:49 PM
But if the state would lack the rights to spend at their heart's content (laisez faire economy, you don't need to deify Ann Ryan or create anarchy to have such an economy), populism couldn't ruin a country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
I mean things like the choice between fewer public services or lower taxes.  That's a question of taste.  Running gigantic deficits forever and ever is not a question of taste, it's a metaphysical impossibility.  Populists who think you can are just wrong.
I thought the IMF did provide advice on specific policy choices.

But even so I think that's an extreme interpretation of populism.  My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

QuoteBut if the state would lack the rights to spend at their heart's content (laisez faire economy, you don't need to deify Ann Ryan or create anarchy to have such an economy), populism couldn't ruin a country.
Of course it could.  It would either require you to create a state structure as lacking in democracy as what Orban's building now, but for your ideological choice, or it would just require one election victory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 01:10:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
I mean things like the choice between fewer public services or lower taxes.  That's a question of taste.  Running gigantic deficits forever and ever is not a question of taste, it's a metaphysical impossibility.  Populists who think you can are just wrong.
I thought the IMF did provide advice on specific policy choices.

But even so I think that's an extreme interpretation of populism.  My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

QuoteBut if the state would lack the rights to spend at their heart's content (laisez faire economy, you don't need to deify Ann Ryan or create anarchy to have such an economy), populism couldn't ruin a country.
Of course it could.  It would either require you to create a state structure as lacking in democracy as what Orban's building now, but for your ideological choice, or it would just require one election victory.

Weren't the (at least late) 19th century British state much-much less involved in the economy than modern states? Didn't you have political parties regardless?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:18:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 01:10:55 PM
Weren't the (at least late) 19th century British state much-much less involved in the economy than modern states? Didn't you have political parties regardless?
Yeah.  But that wasn't really a democracy, the franchise was very limited.  Late 19th century about 50% of men over 21 could vote.  Also the state I think has needed to grow in the 20th century precisely because of the way the economy's grown. 

And regardless you had the start of social and political reforms precisely because both Liberals and Tories thought it was a choice between that evolution or socialist revolution.  As the Tory PM Lord Salisbury put it 'laissez faire is a fine doctrine, but it must be applied to both sides' and poverty and slums and the like enervated the poor.  They made laissez faire impossible.

Edit:  So you coul probably get a bourgeois liberal state if you limited the franchise by wealth again, but I  don't know how long it would last and it wouldn't deserve to last at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

Color me baffled.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

Color me baffled.

Come on Sheilbh  :lol:

They promised EVERYTHING. They promised light to ne crowd, and darkness to the other. They promised laissez faire to businessman, and insane welfare spending to everyone else.
Etc.

They are as populist as you can be. Seriously.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:18:55 PM
Edit:  So you coul probably get a bourgeois liberal state if you limited the franchise by wealth again, but I  don't know how long it would last and it wouldn't deserve to last at all.

Is this a joke?  You really think the upper classes are united in their desire to restore the political order of the 19th century?  I mean these people are among the biggest beneficiaries of the current system.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
In fact, they are the product of populism on both sides - the socialist party didnt dare do meaningful reform to avoid losing votes (so they fucked up and lost anyway, same happening to Orban as well).

Hungary today is the product of rampant populism and refusal of making the populace face the fact: the socialist state ended in 89, and it was dead long before that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:12:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:18:55 PM
Edit:  So you coul probably get a bourgeois liberal state if you limited the franchise by wealth again, but I  don't know how long it would last and it wouldn't deserve to last at all.

Is this a joke?  You really think the upper classes are united in their desire to restore the political order of the 19th century?  I mean these people are among the biggest beneficiaries of the current system.

Indeed. This is a classic mistake I think: the upper classes profit greatly from these modern left-leaning national economies. Buying off the poor, conserving them in their situation, from money largely taken from the middle class? What not to like if you are rich?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Color me baffled.
They came about after a technocratic government implementing measures in support of an IMF program.  They cut government spendign by 5% and reformed various bits of the state.  They restored Hungarian credibility in markets but I don't think there was any sense of rebalancing the economy or growth - which people require as a trade for painful austerity.  It seems, much like what's happening in Greece now and possibly in Italy, that the government's so attuned to international investors that it leads to resentment.  The more resentment, the more extreme the reaction.  In this case, Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:18:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Is this a joke?  You really think the upper classes are united in their desire to restore the political order of the 19th century?  I mean these people are among the biggest beneficiaries of the current system.
Tamas referred to late 19th century Britain as a model.  I think with that electorate you would probably end up with a classical liberal government again.

Edit:  And I think it's the only route you'd probably be able to get a liberal majority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 02:39:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:15:58 PM
They came about after a technocratic government implementing measures in support of an IMF program.  They cut government spendign by 5% and reformed various bits of the state.  They restored Hungarian credibility in markets but I don't think there was any sense of rebalancing the economy or growth - which people require as a trade for painful austerity.  It seems, much like what's happening in Greece now and possibly in Italy, that the government's so attuned to international investors that it leads to resentment.  The more resentment, the more extreme the reaction.  In this case, Orban.

People need to understand they're not in a position to require anything as a trade for painful austerity.  If they want to default and get locked out of the bond market, let 'er rip.  If they want to maintain access, then they have to cut spending and raise revenues.  The IMF is not just another interest group who's wishes need to be balanced with other interest groups.  They are the last resort.

And I still don't get how the Orban government is not populist enough.  You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:50:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:18:12 PM
Tamas referred to late 19th century Britain as a model.  I think with that electorate you would probably end up with a classical liberal government again.

Edit:  And I think it's the only route you'd probably be able to get a liberal majority.

Well color me very skeptical.  The reason we had classic liberal governments back in those days was mostly because that was the fashionable economic model of the same people who we got our political model from and further the limitations of the technology and so forth of the 19th century.  It seems absurd to ignore the fact that things were different in alot more ways than just the sufferage limits in the 19th century.  I mean after the Jacksonian era we had no such property limits but classical liberalism was still the dominant ideology because, well, it was practically the only economic ideology for countries who were influenced by the Enlightenment.

You really think the most educated and privileged part of the population would not only knock over their own applecart but would be so stuck in the past?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:27:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 02:39:18 PM
People need to understand they're not in a position to require anything as a trade for painful austerity.  If they want to default and get locked out of the bond market, let 'er rip.  If they want to maintain access, then they have to cut spending and raise revenues.  The IMF is not just another interest group who's wishes need to be balanced with other interest groups.  They are the last resort.
The IMF's goals in Hungary included growth and rebalancing.  They didn't happen and weren't emphasised by the government - the same is happening in Greece, Italy is different with Monti's emphasis on the 'grow Italy' plans.  If there's no upside then all these countries are waiting for is someone charismatic enough to pull off a rejection of international finance, as Orban has so far and as the Kirchners have.  That's all that's lacking in Greece.  It's a role I could have imagined Berlusconi playing that role in Italy.

QuoteAnd I still don't get how the Orban government is not populist enough.  You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Orban is the product of too little populism.  They are in this position of power and popular resentment towards the EU and IMF because of the failings of technocratic government, such as what Hungary had before the election that brought Orban to power.  Nowhere have I said he's not a populist or is too anti-populist.

QuoteYou really think the most educated and privileged part of the population would not only knock over their own applecart but would be so stuck in the past?
I think they're the only sector of the poulation which has generally liberal views.  They'd be understood in modern terms.  I don't mean that we'd return to a point which ignores the achievements of the 19th century (such as abolishing child labour), far less the 20th (the security of the welfare state).  But with that electorate I think you'd be more likely to have a majority in favour of a laissez faire attitude to social issues and a generally laissez faire attitude to the economy, low taxes and all the rest.  Basically the Languish vote :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
So do I get it right that you think Orban won because his opponents were less like him? That's 100% correct.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
So do I get it right that you think Orban won because his opponents were less like him? That's 100% correct.
Yeah, and that that sort of politics only has traction in certain situations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:37:28 PM
The IMF doesn't have growth "goals."  IMF programs include growth forecasts because you need those to forecast revenues.  You need to forecast revenues so you can forecast how much external financing the country needs.

There is an upside: not getting shut out of the capital market forever and running the reduced deficit that IMF financing allows you to. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:47:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
So do I get it right that you think Orban won because his opponents were less like him? That's 100% correct.
Yeah, and that that sort of politics only has traction in certain situations.

But I mean that Orban was the worst of the lot!
There has been nothing here but the race of populists. Like, the 13th month pension was promised in one of the campaigns and was only taken away on IMF insistence, and Orban even promised the 14th month pension but he still lost in 2006.

Ever since the late 80s we have been stick-saving one bankrupcy danger after the other because the MOMENT we are not an inch from death the populist rat race resumes and welfare spending spikes up.

Your conclusion is plainly wrong, and if I wouldn't know you better, it would be almost insulting.

The likes of Orban are the bane of this region and my country in particular. They represent everything which is wrong about politics, and they cater to the asia-bound darker side of our culture and national habits. If none of his kind ever gets near politics it will be too much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:37:28 PM
The IMF doesn't have growth "goals."  IMF programs include growth forecasts because you need those to forecast revenues.  You need to forecast revenues so you can forecast how much external financing the country needs.

There is an upside: not getting shut out of the capital market forever and running the reduced deficit that IMF financing allows you to.
They have growth as a goal which part of why, running alongside austerity and banking reform in Hungary, they wanted structural reforms which should reinforce the success of austerity.  I don't mean goals as in 'we will achieve 2% growth'.  No-one has that outside Cuba.

An upside people can care about or understand then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
An upside people can care about or understand then.

And you think this point *supports* your argument that populists are always right?  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
And you think this point *supports* your argument that populists are always right?  :lol:
I don't think populists are always right, I mean I hate what Orban's doing.  I can't stand Thatcher.  I've got three points on this:
Populism is necessary for democracy.
Personally I'd almost always take the populists over elitist, technocratic politics.
The people almost always get it right.  I don't know in all circumstance but when I think about elections that I know about in countries I've any knowledge of I think the people get it right.  I can think of one election in the post-1918 era in the UK which was the worst choice.  Same goes for the US and France.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 04:43:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
And you think this point *supports* your argument that populists are always right?  :lol:
I don't think populists are always right, I mean I hate what Orban's doing.  I can't stand Thatcher.  I've got three points on this:
Populism is necessary for democracy.
Personally I'd almost always take the populists over elitist, technocratic politics.
The people almost always get it right.  I don't know in all circumstance but when I think about elections that I know about in countries I've any knowledge of I think the people get it right.  I can think of one election in the post-1918 era in the UK which was the worst choice.  Same goes for the US and France.

:blink:

Populism is almost certainly necessary for democracy, but to say "the people almost always get it right"?  That's almost patently untrue in almost any and every country from time to time.  YOu need only look at Italy and I will rest my case.

I'm not saying that I want rule by a technocratic elite.  Certainly not.  It's just that in a democracy the price you pay is that the people are sometimes wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 04:43:23 PM:blink:

Populism is almost certainly necessary for democracy, but to say "the people almost always get it right"?  That's almost patently untrue in almost any and every country from time to time.  YOu need only look at Italy and I will rest my case.

I'm not saying that I want rule by a technocratic elite.  Certainly not.  It's just that in a democracy the price you pay is that the people are sometimes wrong.
I don't think you do pay that price in general.  As I say of all British elections, since suffrage, I think we made the wrong choice maybe once (Heath - 70).  In the US I think it's similar (Carter - 76).  In Presidential elections in the V Republic I don't think the French have got it wrong. 

I don't know about Canada, but I think if you look back at the available options, even though you're on the right and may back one party, the people generally get it right.

With Italy you've a point :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 08:50:03 PM
Get it right?  It's not like either party is especially right or wrong, most of the time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 11:31:38 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:27:58 PM
I think they're the only sector of the poulation which has generally liberal views.  They'd be understood in modern terms.  I don't mean that we'd return to a point which ignores the achievements of the 19th century (such as abolishing child labour), far less the 20th (the security of the welfare state).  But with that electorate I think you'd be more likely to have a majority in favour of a laissez faire attitude to social issues and a generally laissez faire attitude to the economy, low taxes and all the rest.  Basically the Languish vote :P

The Languish vote shall prevail as our opponents break under the weight of unsustainable debt -_-

Right now we just wait and complain on the internet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 13, 2012, 09:22:14 AM
Our President (powerless figurehead, now more than ever before, being a career ass-kisser, well regarded athlete then diplomat during the commie era, great proud national olympic boss after commie times, now chief arse-cleaner of Orban) has been discovered of getting his doctorate via copying the work of a Bulgarian sport historian, back in the days.

In other words he cheated.

The ones prone to conspiracy theories raise the concern that just how the journalist who did the busting (in a left-leaning newspaper) did happen on the discovery decades after it happened, with the original source material being obscure nowadays, to say the least.
These people suspect this is the preparation to have Orban flee to Presidentship, and later change us to a Presidential system when the storm goes away.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 16, 2012, 07:34:15 AM
The PM was speaking in front of some farmer organization or whatever today:

-we should eat healthy hungarian food instead of foreign trash
-it is a shame that the people of the villages buy their food instead of growing it*
-the war for arable lands and drinking water is well under way already, not with weapons, but with credit downgrades


*-yes that is the Hungarian PM wishing for subsistence farming outside of cities. Thanks!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 16, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 13, 2012, 09:22:14 AM
Our President (powerless figurehead, now more than ever before, being a career ass-kisser, well regarded athlete then diplomat during the commie era, great proud national olympic boss after commie times, now chief arse-cleaner of Orban) has been discovered of getting his doctorate via copying the work of a Bulgarian sport historian, back in the days.

In other words he cheated.
Does he have slimy hair and is married to a great-granddaughter of Bismarck?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:04:02 AM
Guess the EU Commission has lawyers who think like me and not Sheilbh:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16593827
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 18, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:04:02 AM
Guess the EU Commission has lawyers who think like me and not Sheilbh:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16593827

Clever ones. Single out 3 secondary issues (well except for the central bank thing) which are easily corrected by the government without giving up it's ground of total control back home.
Win-win situation: EU can claim they are strong and care, without forcing a real conflict with Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:13:22 AM
I think this is more to do with the fact that these are the issues the EU has a legal standing to challenge. What would be the primary issues by the way?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 18, 2012, 08:16:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:13:22 AM
I think this is more to do with the fact that these are the issues the EU has a legal standing to challenge. What would be the primary issues by the way?

Well I know it's not easy, indeed the probable prime concerns are out of the EU's reach (which is kinda silly but there you go).

My main concerns are stuff like their new budget council, appointed for 9 years and being able to veto the budget made by the government, the ridicoulous new voting districts, the extreme speed-up of the parlaimentary process which are practically near to ruling by decree.
All these stuff which by their own appear as small mockeries of democracy, but put together look ugly and very dangerous.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 18, 2012, 12:19:49 PM
The next big national holiday, and as all big national holiday, a traditional date to demonstrate your frustration with the government, is 15th of March, when a huge-ass demonstration in 1848 coerced the Habsburgs into acceptin a surprisingly modern "constitution" for Hungary (to be revoked in a few months).
This was a regular date for taking opposition people into custody by the police, even in the late 1980s.


FIDESZ appears to be secure in, well, securing the day. Apparently the government has reserved all the squares, streets, and spots in Budapest which matter and where people could gather, so the police would have to decline each and every opposition demonstrations.

I just hope the people will go anyway. Heck, if they fail to deal with the IMF by then, I will go myself.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 03:18:57 AM
There is still no  progress on the matter of the city council of Budapest reserving each and every spot in the city for the national holiday in March.

The "Milla" organization, growing out of a facebook group called "one million for free press" (well, they never got even near to that number) is the one pushing this thing. Allegedly, the city council told newspapers that they want to come to a compromise with Milla, but they in turn say they haven't been approached yet.

But in the meantime, they decided to troll the city council and the government back, and filed a reservation request of  their traditional place for demonstration with the police, for the next 100 years.  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 08:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 03:18:57 AM
There is still no  progress on the matter of the city council of Budapest reserving each and every spot in the city for the national holiday in March.

The "Milla" organization, growing out of a facebook group called "one million for free press" (well, they never got even near to that number) is the one pushing this thing. Allegedly, the city council told newspapers that they want to come to a compromise with Milla, but they in turn say they haven't been approached yet.

But in the meantime, they decided to troll the city council and the government back, and filed a reservation request of  their traditional place for demonstration with the police, for the next 100 years.  :D

Actually, they did that because the council and the government made the reservations until the next elections, 2014.

There is a map made showing the reservations which wouldnt tell much to you, but the point is that any possible demonstration place at the center of the city, and the less user friendly but traditional (bridge heads mostly) ones have been reserved.

In the meantime, tomorrow a pro-government gathering will take place, including organized groups of Hungarians from accross the border coming to show support. That will bode well with the locals, having people who are not living here tell us what we should think.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 20, 2012, 09:12:16 AM
Wait, let me get this straight, the government exploited the system and effectively prevented any public gathering from taking place in Budapest until 2014? Wow. You guys are sliding to a third world tyranny pretty fast.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2012, 09:12:16 AM
Wait, let me get this straight, the government exploited the system and effectively prevented any public gathering from taking place in Budapest until 2014? Wow. You guys are sliding to a third world tyranny pretty fast.

Yes, at least on the two most prominent national holidays, which have been the traditional times to show unrest (FIDESZ used to hold massive gatherings on these dates while in opposition)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 21, 2012, 11:40:33 AM
A big (could be up to a 100k people) pro-government demonstration is underway right now.

Just in case the world might think we don't like the system Orban is building.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 21, 2012, 03:02:24 PM
I wonder what effect his demonstration will have. I am pretty sure it's chief aim was to hold a test before the 15th of March, see if Orban should try and organize a party gathering of his own.

But, what this comparatively massive (much more people came to support him, then to denounce the new constitution) gathering will mean to him? Will he think that laying down to the EU and the IMF is not necessary at all costs then? That if he still have total mob supremacy even after the things he have done and popularity lost, he can survive a bankrupcy?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 21, 2012, 03:15:08 PM
Tam, I haven't really followed the developments in the Nepkoztarsasag.  Could you please provide an executive summary of what sucks?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: AnchorClanker on January 21, 2012, 04:03:32 PM
Dig up Horthy and clone him.  You can't go wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 22, 2012, 01:50:48 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 21, 2012, 03:15:08 PM
Tam, I haven't really followed the developments in the Nepkoztarsasag.  Could you please provide an executive summary of what sucks?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630970_6773e33bea7a54168ffc64356f3edb63_qof.jpg&hash=ea0f22fa6b89664af142998e4a47583ef71a4701)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630918_ffcaf2a19320962d68ef9fd12493d27e_qof.jpg&hash=37502df86de36eaeda8cb8caca1f1d67dd31eec5)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630926_93ce81e2c32532931a7cd39a3331de74_qof.jpg&hash=223f41c80c8f4a17deb789e33a118e1cc74f1e0e)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630966_c28b9e9ec3f85a615447845d9404d43e_qof.jpg&hash=1a0b397dce14ea3dd7ab5a15f186274795c0818b)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630920_ef9c32296bd7f7987f3fa152367f4cf7_qof.jpg&hash=1bc94e1708e941126c7b2c540d8ce60b0cf50ae5)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 22, 2012, 01:52:23 PM
Marches with torches? How retro.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 22, 2012, 03:00:59 PM
So they hold up paintings?  I expected something more malevolent, like wearing a Gypsy's face as a Hallowe'en mask or stoning a non-Catholic for witchery.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on January 22, 2012, 03:56:34 PM
Nice of them to hold up signs in English.  What's the deal with the ages of the EU, IMF, US and Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 22, 2012, 04:03:05 PM
Hungary is more decrepit and senile than the U.S.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jaron on January 22, 2012, 04:05:44 PM
I'm not sure I could consider Hungary an uninterrupted state with a millennial history in clear conscience. I believe it would be more accurate to say Hungary is  94 years old.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?

The EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:53:04 PM
Quote from: Jaron on January 22, 2012, 04:05:44 PM
I'm not sure I could consider Hungary an uninterrupted state with a millennial history in clear conscience. I believe it would be more accurate to say Hungary is  94 years old.

I would at the very least start after the reconquista by the Habsburgs.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 23, 2012, 09:21:28 AM
To ease myself on the "government zombies went to the street in considerably greater numbers than the opposition did two weeks ago", here is picture from Budapest, 1st of May celebrations, 1957:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fne%2Fnemtetszikarendszer%2Fimage%2FMajus1_08.jpg&hash=1b7d35f21c0bb2bfe03a70748204cdcb6aaf043f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 23, 2012, 09:34:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?

The EU.

The EU is really scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, isn't it?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 24, 2012, 09:59:02 AM
Not sure how widespread this is, but due to high taxes we have had these cafeteria bonuses employers can give out. Important to our present story are the meal vouchers. On a limited amount, they come with reduced taxes on them.

Personally, I find the whole concept an abomination - make due with tax levels which does not necessitate these stuff. But anyway.

The present government will, from this year, only give tax bonus on electronic "voucher" cards, not the paper-based ones which have been widespread. Nice? Not quite so, first of all because the main bonus comes from implementing a state-licensed voucher card. Plus, read on.

-There has been only one such card-based system in the country, used by OTP, the biggest Hungarian bank. It's owner is one of the closest allies of Orban, one of the two well-known "oligarch" backers of him (beside MOL, our oil company). So they gave a very nice jumpstart in this newly created market for the pals

-where else do their friends have significant business interest? Hungarian supermarket/shop chains. So, the state agency responsible for integrating applicant businesses into the card-system refuses to negotiate with foreign shop chains, and the small local business can only get the green light for it if they join through a Hungarian chain's infrastructure, ie. succumbing to it.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 24, 2012, 03:08:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 23, 2012, 09:34:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?

The EU.

The EU is really scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, isn't it?

Germany needs a buffer zone between it and the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 07, 2012, 01:26:03 PM
Hey Tamas, why did you keep this from us?  :lol:

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2011/11/horror-fourteen-pictures-to-accompany-the-new-hungarian-basic-laws.html (http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2011/11/horror-fourteen-pictures-to-accompany-the-new-hungarian-basic-laws.html)

QuoteHorror: Fourteen pictures to accompany the new Hungarian Basic Laws

The Orbán government's first dabbling in art ended in ridicule. That was during the first "reign" of Viktor Orbán. His much admired "historian," István Nemeskürty, apparently ordered a very large canvas depicting the members of the Orbán-Torgyán government together with important symbols of that period. At the end the government refused to pay for it. One ought to take a second look at this "masterpiece" to appreciate the second attempt of Viktor Orbán and his friends to make themselves immortal.

Well, one laughing stock wasn't enough. Ten years later, the second Orbán government ordered fifteen new "masterpieces" to the tune of 1.6 million forints apiece to illustrate the history of Hungary between 1867, the date of the Compromise, and today. At present they are being kept in the National Széchenyi Library protected by armed guards. I don't think that anyone would like to steal them. Maybe the government is afraid of defacement.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fesbalogh.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00e009865ae58833015392e64de4970b-pi&hash=7ae531d27ac86d8fbc22d4ef449d16dd671c69ca)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fesbalogh.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00e009865ae58833015392e66ba6970b-pi&hash=2925c72544b6202e787c9d4a4d4f66530bee8056)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 07, 2012, 01:34:06 PM
I thought I posted it :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 07, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 07, 2012, 01:34:06 PM
I thought I posted it :P

We would have remembered something as corny and eye-bleeding as that.  :lol: A couple of them are legitimate, but others are...well...how to say it...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Iormlund on February 07, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
I love the first one. It even has one of my favorite memes, the facepalm.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 08, 2012, 05:38:09 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 07, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
I love the first one. It even has one of my favorite memes, the facepalm.

The whole thing just oozes the style, rethoric, and talent of the current regime.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 08, 2012, 05:48:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 24, 2012, 09:59:02 AM
Not sure how widespread this is, but due to high taxes we have had these cafeteria bonuses employers can give out. Important to our present story are the meal vouchers. On a limited amount, they come with reduced taxes on them.

Personally, I find the whole concept an abomination - make due with tax levels which does not necessitate these stuff. But anyway.

The present government will, from this year, only give tax bonus on electronic "voucher" cards, not the paper-based ones which have been widespread. Nice? Not quite so, first of all because the main bonus comes from implementing a state-licensed voucher card. Plus, read on.

-There has been only one such card-based system in the country, used by OTP, the biggest Hungarian bank. It's owner is one of the closest allies of Orban, one of the two well-known "oligarch" backers of him (beside MOL, our oil company). So they gave a very nice jumpstart in this newly created market for the pals

-where else do their friends have significant business interest? Hungarian supermarket/shop chains. So, the state agency responsible for integrating applicant businesses into the card-system refuses to negotiate with foreign shop chains, and the small local business can only get the green light for it if they join through a Hungarian chain's infrastructure, ie. succumbing to it.

I think this is pretty normal, no?

Benefits given to employees are income like anything else, especially when given in a cash form (or cash equivalent, like "gift cards" and the like). Why should they be taxed differently?

The tax authorities here go even further - there is a new line of case law which for example tries to make stuff like parties for employees a taxable income, but hopefully this will be crushed in courts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 08, 2012, 07:09:21 AM
Because the entire reason to give it is the tax break. We are talking about foodstamps FFS.

I don't like them as I said, the taxes should be on a bearable level and there would be no need for these.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 08, 2012, 07:12:38 AM
I dealt with this a lot in my old job.  It's not common everywhere but lots of countries have something like it.  It's company benefits-in-kind.  Employers liked them because they were cheaper than wages and tax free.  It's like a really shit company car.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 08, 2012, 07:29:47 AM
Yes, in Austria you can give meal vouchers up to 4.40€/day tax free. Also, 1/6 of the annual income can be paid as "special payments" at reduced tax rates (de facto 13th/14th salary, paid end of May and end of November).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2012, 09:01:32 AM
First one looks like a Holy Grail interlude.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2012, 03:48:17 AM
the FIDESZ faction is having a congress closed off to the public. But some informations are allegedy leaked.

Including that Orban told the inner circle that the international attacks on him are part of an international conspiracy, reaching as far as the United States, and the CNN.  :tinfoil:

Also allegedly, he urged a "hunt for moles", beause a few FIDESZ MPs voted "no" on the appointment of the head of the new authority over the judges in the country. She happened to be the wife of one of FIDESZ's most prominent members.


:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 05:29:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 08, 2012, 07:09:21 AM
Because the entire reason to give it is the tax break. We are talking about foodstamps FFS.

I don't like them as I said, the taxes should be on a bearable level and there would be no need for these.

I think you don't understand what a food stamp is.

I fail to see why a monetary benefit (i.e. remuneration) should be taxed differently than a non-monetary one. Both provide the employee with a taxable, financial gain.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:15:51 AM
President of the Parlaiment, Laszlo Kover, 3rd official of the country, had an interview on Sunday.

He was always the most openly radical of the ancien regime within FIDESZ. His remark about opposition voters "could might as well go down the basement and hang themselves" was great munition for the opposition for a while.
But he is of the core of FIDESZ, childhood friend of Orban, so his voice supposedly carries weight.

He made three interesting points:

-Parlaiment should receive a separate guard force, independent of regular law enforcement. Because "the police, or the Republican Guard (don't be fooled by the name, it is a security team with a fancy title) cannot react fast enough if something happens in the parlaiment"

-There should be more severe punishments for MPs diverging from the house order

-the government's efficiency is highly hindered by the need to go through the Parlaimental voting process. "The factions should consider" switching to a system where the government has a much broader right to enact laws on it's own, with the Parlaiment approving these after they come into effect.



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Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:20:41 AM
This glorious stateman himself:

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Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on February 20, 2012, 09:17:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:15:51 AM


-Parlaiment should receive a separate guard force, independent of regular law enforcement. Because "the police, or the Republican Guard (don't be fooled by the name, it is a security team with a fancy title) cannot react fast enough if something happens in the parlaiment"





The Capitol police nod sagely at such wisdom.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 22, 2012, 09:32:48 AM
Just saw this on the Guardian's Eurocrisis live blog:
Quote12.09pm: The European Commission is withholding €495m of EU development funds from Hungary after the country failed to reduce its deficit.

These funds are means to support the EU's poorer regions. It is the first time the European Commission has proposed to suspend development funds from one of its members over an excessive deficit.

David Gow reports from Brussels:
Quote
The EC flexed its new fiscal surveillance muscles by threatening to suspend almost €0.5bn in structural aid to Hungary for persistently breaching budget deficit rules.

Olli Rehn, EU economic and monetary affairs commissioner, said: "Today's decision has to be regarded as a incentive to correct a deviation (from fiscal prudence) and not as a punishment."

He told reporters that Hungary had been in "excessive deficit" – breaching the 3% of GDP ceiling – since it joined the EU in 2004 despite repeated warnings to get its fiscal house in order.
Rehn was also dismissive of Budapest's argument that it brought its deficit below the 3% ceiling in 2011, arguing it was due to one-off factors.
Any Magyar rage yet Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 09:34:07 AM
nothing yet, I wonder how this story will develop here, if at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on February 22, 2012, 09:49:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 09:34:07 AM
nothing yet, I wonder how this story will develop here, if at all.
"Hungary doing so well that EU decides it doesn't need developement funds"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 09:58:12 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 22, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
I wonder if you guys go the same deal from the EU that we did - i.e. that our social security/pension debt is not counted towards the deficit figures.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on February 22, 2012, 12:18:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:15:51 AM
-the government's efficiency is highly hindered by the need to go through the Parlaimental voting process. "The factions should consider" switching to a system where the government has a much broader right to enact laws on it's own, with the Parlaiment approving these after they come into effect.
Sounds very much like Hitler's enabling act of March 1933.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 22, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
I wonder if you guys go the same deal from the EU that we did - i.e. that our social security/pension debt is not counted towards the deficit figures.

We didn't. So they nationalized the whole thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2012, 02:36:27 AM
We had a national census recently. Privacy concerns were swept aside of course, mainly because EACH QUESTION WOULD BE RESEARCHED INDIVIDUALLY OMG.

Recent news? "based on census data, a lot of gypsies gave buddhism as religion"

Now how the FUCK are you supposed to know that if you kept to what you promised?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 29, 2012, 07:20:39 AM
One of the new opposition organizations which formed during the current reign is "One Million For Hungarian Freedom Of The Press", or in the much more convinient Hungarian abbrevation: EMS.

They started on Facebook (never got even near to a million though) and have been organizing demonstrations, which quickyl became general anti-government gatherings instead of focusing on freedom of press in general.

Their two leaders have been: summoned to the tax authority.

Altough one of them is apparently a retard, since he didn't submit tax papers between 2006-2010, and you would think that once you start going openly against a gang like this, you cover your ass on stuff like these immediately.

Anyways, they say the real focus was on the tax officers trying to gain info on the money flow of the organization: who supports them, who maintains their Youtube channel, that kind of essential stuff to get their tax papers right.

Since the deadline for last year's tax report is this May, the officers offered to help them prepare the papers "just to be sure" - needing all the bookkeeping and inside info on the organization for that, of course.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 10:32:19 AM
Marty, Marty! Let me know if you ride with these folks, I'll go to the opposition demo and we might end up hurling stones at each other:

http://www.gazetapolska.pl/13885-wielki-wyjazd-na-wegry
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D

Banderas looks more gypsy than I do  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D

Banderas looks more gypsy than I do  :mad:
different type of gypsy, but yes, yes he does :lol:

'sides, you're the best kind of gypsy. the one that can "pass" and infiltrate otehr groups. i'm on to you!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D

Banderas looks more gypsy than I do  :mad:
different type of gypsy, but yes, yes he does :lol:

'sides, you're the best kind of gypsy. the one that can "pass" and infiltrate otehr groups. i'm on to you!

an important piece of advice for you folks: do not think it is a good prank to call a hungarian a gypsy. It is right there with calling an arab a jew, a jew an arab, anyone a polack, you get the picture.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: chipwich on March 08, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
So it's true then?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:23:04 PM
Quote from: chipwich on March 08, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
So it's true then?

:lol: no it's not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
Recent snipets. I actually didn't listen to things that much recently. Hungary becoming a Belorussia, or at least an Ukraine, is a given, so why bother.

-according to the new education bill/law, elementary school students will have to choose between attending either a "morality" class, or faith studies  (not sure on the translation of this - it's when a priest gets a weekly class with children to touch, I mean, educate them in biblical matters). So basically they can get to choose between learning religious stuff from a teacher, or a priest.

-allegedly, Orban recently voiced his confusion in a shor interview, about why he should listen to the EU officials, who run the EU "worse than a run-down village" and lack legitimacy to make demands

-regarding the small fact that they assured the markets an IMF deal would be signed in March, while the negotiations haven't even started to this day, he said that he "has been sitting at the negotiating table for months. But they [the IMF and the EU] are not coming"

-a bunch of French liberals are coming to the opposition protests this Thursday, while a bunch of Polack bumfucks come to protest in support of Orban. Inquire for free bus rides to Budapest, and let me know if you come. We can yell insults either together, or at each other, depending on which demo you choose. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 03:25:48 AM
 :lol: at the first celebrational event of the day, the Kazycnski fanbois seriously outnumber the Hungarians - the whole "crowd" is just drown in the forest of Polish flags. Signs are wield saying "Orba, Kazyncski, lead us on Warsaw" and the like. Hillarity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 03:36:30 AM
It is also sad though. There is a supposedly politics-free national celebrational event, and we have a Polack journalist on stage, pouring rightist, EU-bashing propaganda
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 15, 2012, 05:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 12, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
-according to the new education bill/law, elementary school students will have to choose between attending either a "morality" class, or faith studies  (not sure on the translation of this - it's when a priest gets a weekly class with children to touch, I mean, educate them in biblical matters). So basically they can get to choose between learning religious stuff from a teacher, or a priest.

Actually that's what we have been having for the last 10 years or so.

You either get a (Catholic) religion class (usually taught by a priest or a nun but sometimes a lay person) or you get an ethics class (which, at least supposedly, teaches about ethical systems from a more neutral perspective). The main problem with that system is that due to peer pressure/conformity, a very small number of students are ever sent by their parents to ethics classes (but that number is increasing), and often there just aren't enough qualified teachers for that.

The upside however is that nothing seems to make young people hate the Catholic religion as much as having to learn it as a class in the public school.

There is now a growing vocal minority that wants to do away with that system and kick religion out of schools - even a lot of Catholics admit that the way it was during the communist era (kids going to religion classes ran by the Catholic church in "Sunday school" type of set up) was preferable. However, since this comes with money (priests and nuns getting paid to be teachers by the state), the greedy priests won't give that one up without a fight.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 10:00:12 AM
The PM's speech is exactly like the one a year ago: basically that we are a financial colony of the EU, fighting hard for our independence, and to protect the progress we have achieved with the new constitution, against forces of evil repressive backward people, mobilized by the Hungarian opposition.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 15, 2012, 10:29:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2012, 05:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 12, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
-according to the new education bill/law, elementary school students will have to choose between attending either a "morality" class, or faith studies  (not sure on the translation of this - it's when a priest gets a weekly class with children to touch, I mean, educate them in biblical matters). So basically they can get to choose between learning religious stuff from a teacher, or a priest.

Actually that's what we have been having for the last 10 years or so.

You either get a (Catholic) religion class (usually taught by a priest or a nun but sometimes a lay person) or you get an ethics class (which, at least supposedly, teaches about ethical systems from a more neutral perspective). The main problem with that system is that due to peer pressure/conformity, a very small number of students are ever sent by their parents to ethics classes (but that number is increasing), and often there just aren't enough qualified teachers for that.

The upside however is that nothing seems to make young people hate the Catholic religion as much as having to learn it as a class in the public school.

There is now a growing vocal minority that wants to do away with that system and kick religion out of schools - even a lot of Catholics admit that the way it was during the communist era (kids going to religion classes ran by the Catholic church in "Sunday school" type of set up) was preferable. However, since this comes with money (priests and nuns getting paid to be teachers by the state), the greedy priests won't give that one up without a fight.

That's the way it has been done in Spain since the democracy as well, and nowadays the people who attend religious classes are the minority. In my high school they definitely were. They (or rather their parents) are an extremely vocal pressure group, though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 15, 2012, 10:41:08 AM
Most states in Germany have religious education in school, but by teachers, not priests. However, the teachers need to be approved by the Church. You can usually opt out and do something like philosophy/ethics instead.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 05:27:37 PM
Marty's east euro spit on the Goldman thread reminded me about this nazi blog-commenter who polluted most of the political blogs I was reading this last couple of days with his discovery about the French intellectuals who planned to come and support our opposition demo tomorrow.

It was genius. So on the list, there were some peeps with German-sounding names. So he labelled these jews. Than there were like one or two people with Hungarian-descent last names. These weren't jew-sounding, so they were labelled as jews, as surely they changed their family names. There was this one french guy whose name was way too french-sounding for the first two conditions, but it is ok, he claimed that the school this guy teaches at was of a huguenot-jewish foundation some 400 years ago, so clearly the guy is in on the whole conspiration thing.

:lol:


In general, either the government has lost all blog-commenter's support except for the nazis, or the population is radicalizing faster than I would have thought, as simply there was almost no comments which supported the government, and didn't consist various levels of anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 06:21:32 AM
We have Religious Education in High School that you have to do until you're 14 after which it's a choice.  You have to learn a bit about the 6 major faiths and then go in-depth into one (almost always Christianity because that's what the teacher knows) though if you want you can do your own thing.  At primary school, though, RE was taken by the local Kirk Minister and he'd also take assemblies which would involve hymns and that sort of thing.  The worst thing about it was that the Church of Scotland disagrees with set prayers so they sort improvise them, and our Minister's used to go on for ages and there were lots of fidgety unhappy 10 year olds.

Back before I was at school the local Minister was a fierce fire and brimstone Kirk preacher.  So the local Catholic priest used to go to the schools at the same time to take the Catholic kids out for separate RE.  Apparently this started after an unfortunate incident where the RE lesson descended into promises of anti-Roman eternal damnation :lol:

On Hungary I'm glad the EUSSR opinions made the bold leap from right-wing British blogs to national politicians:
QuoteHungary prime minister hits out at EU interference in national day speech
Viktor Orbán on collision course with Brussels as his government attempts to revive aid talks to keep Hungary afloat

Share 190  reddit this
Ian Traynor, Europe editor
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 March 2012 18.19 GMT
Article history

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Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán, centre, delivers a speech in front of the parliament building in Budapest. Photograph: Bernadett Szabo/Reuters

Hungary's strongman prime minister, Viktor Orbán, delivered a stinging broadside against Brussels on Thursday, likening EU bureaucracy to Soviet tyranny and casting himself in the mould of Hungarian heroes fighting to free the country from foreign domination since the 19th century.

Locked in dispute with Brussels for more than a year over media freedoms, economic policy, the central bank, and the judiciary, Orbán put himself on a collision course with the EU just as his government is attempting to secure credits of €20bn (£17bn) to keep Hungary afloat.

Addressing tens of thousands of supporters on Hungary's national day, commemorating the 1848-49 uprising against Habsburg rule, the prime minister rounded on eurocrats whom he accused of illegitimate interference in the country.

"We do not need the unsolicited assistance of foreigners wanting to guide our hands," Orbán declared in a reference to Brussels' demands for legal and constitutional changes regulating Hungary's central bank, data protection laws, and the retirement age for judges on the supreme court.

Drawing a clear parallel between Soviet domination of Hungary until 1989 and the behaviour of the European authorities, Orbán said: "We are more than familiar with the character of unsolicited comradely assistance, even if it comes wearing a finely tailored suit and not a uniform with shoulder patches."

Orbán enjoys the strongest democratic mandate in the EU, after a landslide election victory in 2010 that gave his Fidesz party a two-thirds majority in parliament. He has used the mandate to draft and rush through a new Hungarian constitution, crack down on media pluralism, and has been accused of authoritarianism and breaking the laws of the EU, which Hungary joined in 2004.

This week, EU finance ministers said they would withhold half a billion euros in funding for Hungary from next year because it was failing to get its budget deficit under control and violating EU rules on fiscal rigour.

The European commission is also threatening to take Hungary to court for breaching EU law, insisting the country amend its legislation to guarantee the independence of the central bank. The commission is also worried about media censorship and control and at moves to force judges to retire, a policy seen as enabling Orbán to rid himself of opponents in key institutions of power.

On Thursday, the prime minister rounded furiously on EU outsiders demanding changes. "Hungarians will not live as foreigners dictate, will not give up their independence or their freedom, therefore they will not give up their constitution either," he thundered in a speech with strong nationalist overtones.

"Freedom means that we decide about the laws governing our own life, we decide what is important and what isn't. From the Hungarian perspective, with a Hungarian mindset, following the rhythm of our Hungarian hearts. We will not be a colony."

The prime minister traced Hungary's freedom fight through the great revolutions of 1848 against Vienna, of 1956 against Soviet communism, and of 1989 when he played a starring role as a young student anti-communist leader.

The message was that Hungary was once more embroiled in a fight for its freedom and that Orbán was the heir to the heroes of Hungary's history. "In 1848 we said that we should tear down the walls of feudalism and we were proven right. In 1956, we said we have to crack, we have to break the wheels of communism and we were proven right," he declared.

"Today also, they look at us with suspicion. European bureaucrats look at us with distrust today because we said: we need new ways. We said we have to break out of the prison of debt and we also declared that Europe can only be made great again with the help of strong nations. You will see my dear friends that we will be proven right yet again."

On Wednesday, Orbán wrote to the European commission requesting support for his attempts to secure crucial standby credits from the International Monetary Fund.

His speech advocated nationalism, protectionism, and reeked of chippiness, arguing that his country was getting a raw deal in the EU. "We have with us the silently abiding Europe of many tens of millions, who still insist on national sovereignty and still believe in the Christian virtues of courage, honour, fidelity and mercy, which one day made our continent great.

"As a thousand-year-old European nation we have one demand. We demand equal standards for Hungarians. As a European nation we demand equal treatment. We will not be second-class European citizens."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 16, 2012, 07:15:47 AM
Can we kick fucking Hungarians out of the EU please?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 16, 2012, 10:14:42 AM
Well if Hungary doesn't want to be second class, they shouldn't elect a fourth-class government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 16, 2012, 10:48:51 AM
Have fun being bankrupt.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 16, 2012, 02:15:36 PM
From my favorite lunatic / conspiratorial side (languish excluded), we get the perspective that Orban is actually the democratic hero here (I'm only quoting the first part, the article goes on):

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/will-hungary-be-next-iceland-pm-orban-hungarians-will-not-live-foreigners-dictate

QuoteWill Hungary Be The Next Iceland? PM Orban: "Hungarians Will Not Live As Foreigners Dictate"

When it comes to being a NWO debt slave, one can accept their fate demurely and bent over, like a conditionally habituated dog electroshocked into perpetual submission just as the banker elites like it, with threats that the world would end the second one dared to change the status quo (see Greece), or one can do something about being a debt slave. Like Iceland. And then rapidly proceed to be the best performing economy in Europe. And reading some of the latest news out of Hungary, which has to count its lucky stars is not stuck in the inflexible nightmare that is the mercantilist Eurocurrency union, gives us hope that we may soon witness the next sovereign rebellion against the banker yoke. The WSJ reports: "Hungary's premier fired a new broadside in the country's running battle of wills with the European Union, saying that Hungarians should be free to make their own laws without interference from Brussels.  Speaking to a large crowd of supporters celebrating the anniversary of a 19th-century Hungarian revolt against Austrian rule, Prime Minister Viktor Orban said: "Hungarians will not live as foreigners dictate." This has promptly generated the anticipated response from European unelected dictator Barroso, who minutes ago said that Hungary's Orban doesn't get democracy. Oh, we think he does. What he doesn't seem to get, or like, is existence in a banker-governed technocratic, klepto-fascist state, in which the peasantry is merely an intermediary vessel for asset confiscation by insolvent banks. Like Greece... which however already is the butt of all jokes of personal submission to a foreign oppressor, so there is no dignity in kicking a dog that is down.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 16, 2012, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 06:21:32 AM
the local Kirk Minister

dammit man, you brits are taking this TOS thing way too far  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 03:56:42 PM
The FT Brussels Blog has more:
QuoteHigh quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2012/03/the-eu-soviet-barroso-takes-on-hungarys-orban/#ixzz1pJblfR85

[UPDATED] The EU Soviet? Barroso takes on Orban
March 16, 2012 2:17 pm by Peter Spiegel

[UPDATE] We've obtained the English-language version of Orban's March 13 letter to Barroso requesting assistance on reopening talks with the IMF for a line of credit. The letter can be read here. http://blogs.r.ftdata.co.uk/brusselsblog/files/2012/03/OrbanLetter.pdf

The war of words between Brussels and Budapest continued on Friday, with José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, hitting back at Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban, who a day earlier compared Barroso's Commission to Soviet apparatchiks and Hapsburg imperialists.

Orban's tongue lashing, made at a national day rally in front of thousands in central Budapest, came after a series of recent moves by the Commission, the European Union's executive branch, to sanction the Hungarian government for violating EU rules on deficits and democratic institutions.

Through his spokesperson, Barroso questioned Orban's grasp of democratic principles, a rebuke sure to rankle the Hungarian prime minister, who as a young anti-Communist activist became famous for publicly calling for the withdrawal of the Red Army in 1989.

"Those who compare the European Union with the USSR show a complete lack of understanding of what democracy is, in his view," said the spokesperson, adding she was relating Barroso's personal comments. "They also fail to understand the important contribution of all those who have defended and fought for freedom and democracy."

The rhetorical clash comes less than a week after eurozone finance ministers backed a Commission proposal to withhold €495m in EU development funds next year because of Orban's persistent failure to meet Brussels-mandated deficit targets.
Barroso has launched so-called "infringement proceedings" against Orban for provisions in a newly adopted constitution the Commission believes threaten the independence of Hungary's central bank, judiciary and data-protection agency.

The Hungarian government appeared eager to have Orban's Commission-bashing speech widely disseminated, sending out English and French translations to multiple news outlets in Brussels, even as Orban was seeking Barroso's help to kick-start talks between Budapest and the International Monetary Fund over a line of credit. Barroso has blocked the talks because of the new laws governing the central bank.

For those interested, here is a copy of the excerpts of Orban's speech, as provided by the Hungarian government:
QuoteThe political and intellectual program of 1848 was this: we will not be a colony! The program and the desire of Hungarians in 2012 goes like this: we will not be a colony!

Hungary could not have stood against the pressure and things dictated from abroad in the winter of 2011-2012 if it were not for those hundreds of thousands of people who stood up to show everyone that Hungarians will not live as foreigners dictate it, will not give up their independence or their freedom, therefore they will not give up their constitution either, which they finally managed to draft after twenty years. Thank you all!

Don't be misled if tomorrow you will read in the international press that there were only a few hundred people here in the square and even those who were here, rallied against the government.

As things stand, we have not been as strong as we are today for long decades.

As things stand today we are enough in numbers and in our resolve to fight for a free Hungarian life also, after fighting for our liberties.

Freedom for us means that we are not inferior to anyone else. It means that we also deserve respect.

Freedom also means that de decide about the laws governing our own life, we decide what is important and what isn't. From the Hungarian perspective, with a Hungarian mindset, following the rhythm of our Hungarian hearts.

Therefore we write our own constitutions. We do not need writing-lines, nor do we require the unsolicited assistance of foreigners wanting to guide our hands.

We are more than familiar with the character of unsolicited comradely assistance, even if it comes wearing a finely tailored suit and not a uniform with shoulder patches. We want Hungary to revolve around its own axis, therefore we are going to protect the constitution, which is the security for our future.

We have to ask and to respond to the biggest question. Will we submit ourselves to being at the mercy of others until death or will we rely on the virtues which make Hungarians Hungarians, which make sovereignty sovereignty and history history. Will we opt for the fate of a colony or for a Hungarian existence made up and made complete according to the best of our knowledge?

There is one thing that no one can question. Our freedom fights always meant a step forward for the world. They meant progress because we were right. We were right even if everyone denied this.

In '48 we said that we should tear down the walls of feudalism and we were proven right. In '56, we said we have to crack, we have to break the wheels of communism and we were proven right.

Today also, they look at us with suspicion. They looked at us like this in '48-'49, when Europe became silent, silent again, but then the feudalist world disintegrated all around Europe and strong nations were born in its place.

They looked at us like this in '56, but the communist tyranny, that we drove the first nail into, finally collapsed, allowing Europe to reunite again.

European bureaucrats look at us with distrust today because we said: we need new ways. We said we have to break out of the prison of debt and we also declared that Europe can only be made great again with the help of strong nations. You will see my dear friends that we will be proven right yet again.


It was not the feudalist vassals who caused the demise of feudalism, nor was communism destroyed by party secretaries. The rule of speculators will not be terminated by them or by bureaucrats, nor will they come help save the ditched carriage of Europe.

It is not going to be them, but instead it is going to be European citizens living off the fruits of their personal efforts. Because their world has to come. If it doesn't, then the days of Europe are over.

The Youth of March also saw, what many in Europe today refuse to see, that financial independence is a precondition for freedom. This is why they had to include the indispensable demand for a National Bank on their 12-point list.

Although the Youth of March were not board members or bankers, they fully understood the weight of the issue of a national bank. They knew that an independent national bank is not one that is independent from its nation. An independent national bank is one, which protects the national economy from foreign interests. They knew and we also know well that anyone with common sense will not entrust the neighbours with the keys to the pantry.

Our Lithuanian, Czech, Latvian, Slovenian and Romanian friends have all stood up for us. Not only did they stand up for us, they also came, our Lithuanian and Polish friends are here to celebrate with us.

Glory to Lithuania! God bless Poland!

We also have with us the silently abiding Europe of many tens of millions, who still insist on national sovereignty and still believe in the Christian virtues of courage, honour, fidelity and mercy, which one day made our continent great.

There are people, there are many people who still remember 56 and think that "you Hungarians were right". We are capable of standing our ground against the injustice of stronger empires. This is why we are respected by those who respect us. This is why we are attacked by those who are against us.

We understand that Europe has a lot of problems. The clog wheels are creaking, muscles and tendons are flexing.

But as a thousand year old European nation we have one demand. We demand equal standards for Hungarians. As a European nation we demand equal treatment. We will not be second class European citizens. Our rightful demand is to have the same standards apply to us, which apply to other countries. We have learnt that the recovery of Europe and Hungary are inseparable from each other. Any time Europe found itself in distress, the fate of Hungary also took a turn for the worse.
We are not happy, but we understand that European unity is not a unity of saints, but we will not sit and watch idly, if any political or intellectual trend tries to force an unholy alliance on Europe.

Europe cannot surrender and give in; the feeling of belonging together may not weaken it any more. This would lead to the defeat and to the demise of Europe. This is why Europe cannot leave whole countries by the roadside.

If we don't act in time, in the end, the whole of Europe can become a colony of the modern financial system.
Jesus :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on March 16, 2012, 04:20:55 PM
An eggplant lecturing a beet.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 16, 2012, 04:44:41 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 16, 2012, 04:20:55 PM
An eggplant lecturing a beet.  :lol:
:yeah:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 20, 2012, 04:38:40 AM
They are even too lazy to create new internal villains.

Ferenc "omg he admitted he lied" Gyurcsany, the former PM, left the socialist party some months ago, founded a new party, and continues his slide into insignificance.

Now, to stop his new party from forming a faction, a new law will be made to regulate faction-founding, with retrospective effect.

Also, some ex-state official wants him tried with terrorism charges after his comment last week on blockading the Constitutional Court if they don't deal with the appeal his party sent in on who knows what.

Also, the Parlaiment last week decided to investigate the 2006 riots. On the grounds of wether Gyurcsany and the police chiefs committed acts of terrorism during them.

Bluff? By all probability.

But, I read a very good comment regarding Orban and his schenangians with the EU: he keeps raising the ante.
This is very true. After his loss of the PM seat several years, he started to build his support on a state of siege mentality, and the scale of that siege and the enemy just kept growing. Now that he is governing, and the opposition is as weak as it can get without just giving up their seats in Parlaiment, he needs a new enemy, to blame for constant failures and lack of direction - the EU, the big foreign enemies bent on destruction of the Hungarian Way.
Also, after they failed to forge enough evidences for corruption against his arch enemy Gyurcsany, and the socialists in general (of course, the socialists were clever enough to steal money legally), they are now showcasing their crusading spirit through accusations of terrorism. What next? They either stop here and admit defeat, or they will have to act upon this...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 20, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Apparently a bunch of crazy Polish catholic retirees went to Hungary last week to show their support for Orban (PiS sees Fidesz as the ideal they could have been if they haven't been stopped by "freemasons, Jews, liberal media, feminists and fags"). Has it even registered on the news there?  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 20, 2012, 07:18:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Apparently a bunch of crazy Polish catholic retirees went to Hungary last week to show their support for Orban (PiS sees Fidesz as the ideal they could have been if they haven't been stopped by "freemasons, Jews, liberal media, feminists and fags"). Has it even registered on the news there?  :D

Read back this thread dude :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 20, 2012, 07:25:50 AM
Just read a story on them in Newsweek. Apparently, they spent their entire trip searching the train for spies and agents.  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 20, 2012, 07:34:27 AM
The Hungarian PM used 'ditched carriage'?  Is Hungary in Africa or something?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:14:24 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/mar/20/tunde-hando-hungarian-judges?newsfeed=true

QuoteImagine a European country where one person can pick the judges. And effectively sack them or transfer them to other courts. And draw up court rules. And initiate legislation on the courts. And hold some 60 other specified legal powers.


Now imagine that this individual has been just given a nine-year term of office. And that, even after that term is up, this hugely powerful figure will simply remain in office unless a successor can command a two-thirds majority in the country's parliament. What would you call a country like that?

Read the rest in the article
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 21, 2012, 12:17:11 PM
QuoteNow imagine that this individual has been just given a nine-year term of office. And that, even after that term is up, this hugely powerful figure will simply remain in office unless a successor can command a two-thirds majority in the country's parliament. What would you call a country like that?

Eastern European.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 21, 2012, 12:30:03 PM
They certainly entrench themselves in positions of power.

I posted this on Paradox. Can't wait to see how the usual suspects will tell us that this is alright and no problem at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
 Hungary is a tragic and adorable figure. I hope she manages to suppress the insidious non-Hungarian elements within her society that threaten a revision of the tragedy of Trianon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
Hungary is a tragic and adorable figure. I hope she manages to suppress the insidious non-Hungarian elements within her society that threaten a revision of the tragedy of Trianon.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that I am racist, or a nationalist, and therefore could bite on a bait like that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 21, 2012, 12:46:09 PM
The company I work for has made a very big investment in Hungary. You guys better don't fuck with that or my annual bonus is threatened too.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 21, 2012, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: Zanza on March 21, 2012, 12:46:09 PM
The company I work for has made a very big investment in Hungary. You guys better don't fuck with that or my annual bonus is threatened too.  :P
lol.  You work for stupid people.

What Hungary needs is a cordon sanitaire that will reduce their living standards to Subsaharan levels.  Maybe then they'll learn not to elect dangerous parties or to be so uppity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 21, 2012, 01:16:12 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
Hungary is a tragic and adorable figure. I hope she manages to suppress the insidious non-Hungarian elements within her society that threaten a revision of the tragedy of Trianon.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that I am racist, or a nationalist, and therefore could bite on a beet like that.

corrected that for you ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that I am racist, or a nationalist, and therefore could bite on a bait like that.

No. I am afraid you are an un-Hungarian element that threatens the sacred national consensus Fidesz has achieved. Your posting here is indicative of how worldly you have become, to the point of abandoning the holy struggles of your country.

Kanashii ne ;-;
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2012, 04:54:06 PM
Zanza, the Paradox thread is comedy gold, and I applaud you for trying to reason with those folks.

What is sad, however, is that these are young people who play historical strategy games and speak English to one degree or the other - their understanding of the world and Europe must be thus better than most of their countrymen...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 23, 2012, 05:19:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 23, 2012, 04:54:06 PM
Zanza, the Paradox thread is comedy gold, and I applaud you for trying to reason with those folks.

What is sad, however, is that these are young people who play historical strategy games and speak English to one degree or the other - their understanding of the world and Europe must be thus better than most of their countrymen...

The golden share of idiocy in that thread is supplied by a Greek, though.

I've already praised Zanza a couple of times before for his patience debating with the knuckleheads over there, either he has saint-like patience or is a masochist debater.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 23, 2012, 05:20:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2012, 12:17:11 PM
QuoteNow imagine that this individual has been just given a nine-year term of office. And that, even after that term is up, this hugely powerful figure will simply remain in office unless a successor can command a two-thirds majority in the country's parliament. What would you call a country like that?

Eastern European.

Dammit!  I was going to say that!  That bastard!  He's always one step ahead. <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2012, 10:36:04 AM
A committee was formed to determine if the President's doctoral thesis -or whatever the thing is called after which you get your doctor title- is plagiarism or not. For those in the unknown, somebody from the press somehow discovered, that he copy-pasted huge chunks from the work of a Bulgarian fellow. Later, further investigation revealed that he copy-pasted from a German guy as well.

So these smart folks came together and had to decide if this was a bad thing or not. Their report says that while he indeed copied "unusually many pages", it was the fault of the university for not discovering this, not the now-Presidents' for doing this.

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 28, 2012, 03:36:14 PM
Sounds like your PM is the new Berlusconi of Europe, only without the charm or business accomplishments.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2012, 03:41:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 28, 2012, 03:36:14 PM
Sounds like your PM is the new Berlusconi of Europe, only without the charm or business accomplishments.

Well, his father got a mine during Orban's first PMship, his family got a huge-ass winery, for example, and the village football club he played in until recently (at his birthplace) have repeatedly received huge-ass grants, resulting in the most modern youth football academy being there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2012, 01:45:21 AM
Here is a good example on why it is hard to figure this government out:

A state secretary in the Agriculture Ministry wants to introduce a bill which, in very general terminology, reduce free access to information based on how much specific skills are needed in understanding said information.

Now, he claims that he only had a single thing in mind: to avoid poor unskilled people get confused by plans made during the measurement of land property borders.

This is of course stupid enough, but  the bill, while only a modification on the agrarian laws, if accepted could be used to ad-hoc formulate some very restricting rulings on what publc info can be accepted by whom, in any topic.

And this has been a constant occurance: laws which are supposed to be for a very specific, harmless thing are worded as such so it can be used to the great benefit of the government, if they ever need it.

So what one should think here? That they are deliberately introducing backdoors on the laws so they can bend and suspend democracy and freedom of information when the need arises, or that they are simply totally incompetent, and even their lawyers are too dumb to draft non-retarded bills?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2012, 03:37:37 AM
 :lol:

The single decidedly opposition, leftie TV channel mocked the President in their news show yesterday. Everyone and everything was labelled "dr." including the Pope, and Castro.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fco%2Fcomment%2Fimage%2F2012marcius%2Fschmittdr.jpg&hash=16e8b1be052160018d6d3d989b5973b374976ee4)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 31, 2012, 02:59:01 PM
'they should had told me I was supposed to use more quote marks" - the President shall not resign. Couple hundred hippies protest, then everything goes back to normal.

Kinda' funny really - socialist PM says "we lied, let's stop and do something right!" - gets leaked, Budapest burns. Rightist puppet's cheating uncovered, he says "so what?!" - nothing really happens
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on March 31, 2012, 04:06:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.
Meh, who cares? I don't eat beets anyway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 31, 2012, 06:31:02 PM
Beetween you and me Hungary is a hellhole.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2012, 12:57:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 31, 2012, 06:31:02 PM
Beetween you and me Hungary is a hellhole.

being between you and him must be a hellhole indeed
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2012, 01:01:09 PM
The President has the nerve to say on national radio, that his attackers "undermine the respect of the Presidental office"  :lol:

Meanwhile, the leader of the university which revoked his doctoral title resigned. He said that after their decision he immediately noticed a much hostile atmosphere from the ministry they work with, and he did not want to jeopardize the uni, or something like that.

The sad part is of course, that the university tried very hard to help FIDESZ - they initially sent the matter of the doctoral title to the ministry, but they sent it back saying that it is up to the uni. Wrongly assuming that the ministry told what they meant, the uni revoked the title, and apparently faced immediate pressure and hostility.
That's how they work - if you pledge allegiance to Orban, you enjoy their protection no matter what. Go against them, and you are destroyed.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on April 01, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.

I don't know to what extent, but what I've read in places like Economist have been fairly begative towards the current government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 01, 2012, 07:24:16 PM
From the Economist:
QuoteHungary's resilient president
A man of honour, greatly impugned
Mar 31st 2012, 17:50 by A.L.B | BUDAPEST

THERE are two certainties in life, mused Benjamin Franklin: death and taxes. If the great man were alive today, no doubt he would add a third: Hungarian politicians never resign.

President Pál Schmitt has ended what must be the worst week of his career. He spent some of it in Seoul glad-handing world leaders at the Nuclear Security Summit. Mr Schmitt has not previously been known for his thoughts on atomic weaponry or nuclear fusion. His expertise was thought to have been in sports and sports history.

Until Thursday, that is, when the senate of Semmelweis University voted to strip him of his doctorate. The decision followed months of scandal, after hvg.hu, a business-news portal, revealed that Mr Schmitt's doctoral thesis had been copied from other sources. The five-member committee said that 17 pages of it had been lifted word for word, and a further 180 had been partly copied.

The announcement triggered a rare cross-party consensus in Hungarian politics: the president should step down. Even Magyar Nemzet, a right-leaning daily that usually backs the government, published a passionate call for Mr Schmitt to quit.

Most analysts thought it was all over for Mr Schmitt. But then Viktor Orbán, the Hungarian prime minister and a party ally of Mr Schmitt's, stepped in. Asked if Mr Schmitt should resign, Mr Orbán replied that it was for him to decide.

So he did. Just like Ferenc Gyurcsány, the Socialist prime minister who in 2006 triggered days of unrest when he was caught admitting that his government had been lying "morning, noon and night", Mr Schmitt said he was staying put.

Luckily for the beleaguered president, state television was on hand to offer a sympathetic ear. Péter Obersovszky's interview with Mr Schmitt, broadcast on MTV1, was the sort of cringe-making encounter rarely seen in central Europe nowadays. As Mr Schmitt defended his thesis as "honest, manly work", the interviewer enquired:

QuoteI have known Mr President for quite a while, and what I don't understand is this: why are you so restrained? What I mean is that you are a person much more passionate than this, even as president. If these documents had got out earlier, if you had put on your gloves, with the momentum characteristic of you, it is possible that this matter would have never got this far at all.

Squirming? There's more.

QuoteMr President, you have made it clear that you are going to defend your office from political attacks and that you are not willing to yield to political pressure. You are also proving now that the sportsman lives in you. But you were hurt in your honour as a human being; what is more as a popular person who is loved by many. Are you going to sue? Or is it your duty as president to endure this?

For those who want more of this sort of thing, a full transcript is available at the Contrarian Hungarian, a liberal blog.

As for Mr Schmitt, he will now start work on a new degree, he says. Perhaps he could write about political pressure on Hungarian state television.
The transcript:
http://thecontrarianhungarian.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/it-was-honest-manly-work-hungarian-president-pal-schmitt-refuses-to-resign/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 06:47:47 AM
He has resigned!

Too bad I can't watch the hillarity ensuing in the Parlaiment. The House Chairman, the interim (and probably final) successor of the President, was reportedly very upsed after the Prez's announcement and while demanding order, yelled that "nobody to the left of him" deserved their places in Parlaiment. Someone from FIDESZ repeated the "but, everyone got their diploma like that!" argument, etc.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2012, 07:55:32 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense for Orban to combine the Presidency with his Chancellor's position?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 08:41:03 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2012, 07:55:32 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense for Orban to combine the Presidency with his Chancellor's position?

Give it some time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 08:42:41 AM
Altough I would hate to see Orban do that, as it would be one of the many steps toward his life-long reign, I am not opposed to switching to a Presidental system (ala USA).

Our elections and power structures are about leadership personalities anyway, and seeing how many Hungarians are perfectly fine with the reign of a Dear and Sacread Leader, I think it would suit our collective psyche better.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on April 02, 2012, 12:16:47 PM
Schmitt resigns.   :nelson:




Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 01:16:21 PM
Rumor says, that Orban told the others of the faction behind close doors today, that he needs a President "to the right of him [politically]".

If true, that leaves out a lot of semi-acceptable party functionaries of him, let alone any neutral possibilities.

A major political analyst is suspecting two possible candidates - the interim President Laszlo Kover, and the Transylvania priest and Hungarian politican, Laszlo Tokes.

The latter is quite a wild guess I think, but I could see happen.

Tokes is... well, I would be happy to diss him, as a militant nationalist, who divided the Hungarian minority in Romania almost enough to destroy their political weight (which is considerable, by sheer numbers alone - they often ended up being the balance-deciders in elections there).
But the thing is, he kind of founded the Hungarian political presence there. Or at least were the figurehead of it. During the mad, last days of the Romanian communist pocket-Stalin (won't attempt to spell his name), he was among the ones to start the final hostilities by resisting arrest or something like that. His home became a foothold of resistance as others protected him.

So, I hate his current stance, and general political views and attitude, but I can't help feeling a good deal of respect for him - unlike most of the politicans of the day, he is saying the same things he was saying back when it was very dangerous to say them, and he put his life on the line for the things he believed in.

That said, over the years he has become totally exposed financially and politically to Orban, so I am convinced that he is in the PM's pockets.

Kover, on the other hand, is a lunatic. He has always been the party's face toward the radicals. God damn, he recently visited Slovakia officially, as Chairman of Parlaiment, and managed to publicly express views how (then commie) Hungary should had invaded Slovakia when the Slovaks broke our deal regarding a big-ass hydro power plant, which we wanted (and did) cancel.

That episode was back during the last years of Communism. The hydro plant would had been a massive undertaking on the Hungarian-Slovakian border, it could had produced a lot of electricity, but opposition forces quickly rallied behind the handful of greens opposing it, as they saw the cracks on the regime's power and resolve. The whole thing became a symbol of resisting Teh Government, and as such was cancelled.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 01:24:35 PM
In other news, the hipster urban leftie party, LMP, tried to pull a stunt - in 2009 FIDESZ focused anti-government feelings in a retarded "social referendum", destroying any hints of progress the socialists managed to wheelcart together in 8 years.
LMP wanted to copy this - since FIDESZ made a lot of changes to the labor laws (sucky ones, but considering how underskilled our workforce is, probably necessary - you can't have the plans of running a country on china-style slave labor, and having laws which forbid you that), they came up with a bunch of referendum questions to do these, and some other (like education) stuff back. Which would have ruined the budget, but that didn't stop FIDESZ back in the day, so I guess they thought, why should it stop them, right?

But they needed 200k signatures on their petition for national referendum, and only got 160k in time.

There are 3 alternatives why they failed (beside the people liking FIDESZ so much), I think it's a combination of all:
-people just don't care anymore
-they were afraid of basically registering with name and andress as active opposition. Who knows where that list can end up once submitted to the office handling it
-they know the economy and the budget is in shambles and do not want the few cuts done back so the shit gets even higher
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 06:50:43 AM
The aformentioned Mr. Kover was interviewed by Le Monde shortly before this incident, it was published yesterday.

He told that the IMF has to give us a loan because they gave to Nigeria and Chad as well, and they didn't ask questions there.

It's funny because otherwise they loudly proclaim again and again how the EU and the IMF seek to make us into a colony, how our economy roars with succcess, and how much they do NOT need the IMF loan.

Then they go around DEMANDING that the IMF gives them money, and give it without any questions or prerequisites.

Like a bunch of gypsies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2012, 08:20:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

Perhaps they can commemorate the day when a brave mob armed with torches and pitchforks stormed a castle of a Jewish doctor-scientist because he was  suspected of creating monsters using stolen body parts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2012, 08:23:38 AM
Unleash Marty! The police again banned Budapest Pride. Last year the court had them allow it.

They say it is because of their planned path blocking traffic. Of course, at least allegedly, that route is the exact same as the huge government-supporting march had, and the police had no problems with that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2012, 02:12:25 AM
It appears, in an attempt to milk the EU talk on a financial transaction tax, the government plans to introduce something called that, but much wider: they are planning to tax, well, everything: wire transfers, bill paying via checks, and the like, with a 0.5-1% tax.

Great.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2012, 03:19:44 AM
Also, since the mass transit company (city-owned) of Budapest is so out of money, their underground trains are starting to fall apart, more and more malfunctions are happening.
The drivers have been issued gasmask, so they can flee the cockpit in case of a fire  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 13, 2012, 08:06:33 AM
Ok, it has happened: I agree with an Orban rhetoric.

They have been getting a lot of flack regarding their flat income tax. Which is of course isn't really flat, since there is a "solidarity" whatever to be payed after a certain income - they added that after it was obvious the budget would collapse otherwise.

Since while they were quick to introduce the flat income tax, they shied away from actually following it with budget cuts.

ANYWAY, some minor newspaper made an interview with him, and he outlined that "social justice" should not be required at the income tax, in his words "when people earn their money" but at the VAT "when they spend it".
So he would prefer multiple levels of VAT accompanying a flat tax, with subsistence goods having a minimal amount, and luxury goods a very high one.

That kind of makes sense. Altough I am not sure why the fuck it would be needed to raise any kind of VAT abote the 27% we have now, but in general I much prefere VAT over income tax, especially in a country like this where everyone cheats and lies about their taxable income. It is much harder to cheat VAT.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 13, 2012, 08:11:21 AM
Speaking of agriculture and linked industries, he had the usual populist shit of eating good local food instead of trashy foreign stuff (good idea, except that only one parameter matters to Hungarians: the price. If the foreign shit looks bad, tastes worse, and comes from dubious sources, but have a few percent lower price than the good quality one, the foreign shit will be bought).
He vowed to support the "reamining Hungarian-owned businesses" (yeah, they were big on handing out land to their pals during their last government as well).
He also said:
"I am sure we can turn this area upside down as well"  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 13, 2012, 09:51:18 AM
Boy, you turn me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 16, 2012, 11:19:27 PM
I think the Daily Mail's the first Western publication to come out in support of Orban.  I'm just surprised they kept the EUSSR theme as subtext :lol:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2127652/The-new-imperialism-How-Brussels-bullies-Budapest-conforming-European-values.html
QuoteThe new imperialism. How Brussels bullies Budapest for not conforming to 'European values'
By ANDREA HOSSÓ
PUBLISHED: 11:23, 10 April 2012 | UPDATED: 11:24, 10 April 2012
 
Andrea Hossó is an economist. She was born in Hungary, gained her MSc in finance in London and has worked in the City for over ten years.

Something grave is happening around Hungary.

The Council of the EU is threatening the suspension of one third of the country's cohesion funds while the European Commission starts intrusive infringement procedures for a variety of questionable reasons.

The European Parliament, meanwhile, is conducting session after session of frenzied attacks on the legitimately-elected Hungarian prime minister, calling his country undemocratic and dictatorial.

The Venice Commission is issuing scathing criticism on a raft of new laws and the new constitution passed by a democratically-elected parliament replacing the one concocted by the communist dictatorship propped up by occupying Soviet forces.

Analysts are grimly advising the market to play against the Hungarian currency  to put pressure on the Hungarian government to conclude negotiations with the IMF about a new credit package that many hope will tie its hands with economic conditions deemed proper by foreign investors.

The world press is loud with criticism from all walks of life bordering on the absurd from a US professor complaining of Hungarians' bad manners to a Dutch radio host heaping unimaginable insults on the whole country.

The European Handball  Federation wants to fine a Hungarian team because its fans sing the Hungarian national anthem before a game.

There is no end to the bewildering mantra from all corners deploring Hungary's 'descent into the abyss' and its lack of 'European values'.

Who could blame the unsuspecting reader for believing that some horror is shaping up in the bosom of the European Union? The picture is indeed frightening even for someone familiar with Hungary, but for quite different reasons.

The first doubt in the objective observer's mind is the legitimacy of the accusations. What democratic ideals can unelected Brussels bureaucrats who fear nothing more than referenda hold up for others? What kind of disinterested moral judgment can we expect from a bureaucracy that condemns Hungary for failing to conform to 'European' values but remains silent in the face of serious discrimination against ethnic Hungarians in other EU countries?

The EU finds nothing objectionable in Slovakia's stripping ethnic Hungarian citizens of their Slovak citizenship if they apply for Hungarian citizenship, although Slovakia generally recognizes double citizenship for all other citizens.

It has nothing to say about Slovakia's language laws that punish ethnic Hungarians for using their native tongue, or Romania's erasing centuries-old Hungarian tombs in cemeteries.

Amazingly, the EU found no reason to worry about European values in 2006 when the then Socialist government in Hungary ordered police to attack peaceful civil demonstrators who were beaten up, tortured and imprisoned with a brutality redolent of the vilest dictatorships.

Hungarians cannot help noticing the double standard applied to their country in every aspect. The EU wants to suspend cohesion funds for Hungary, one of the very few EU countries that actually kept its deficit to GDP ratio at 3% in 2011 and is likely to keep it so in 2012. 

Recently Spain got approval from the very same EU to increase its 2012 deficit to 5.3% from the targeted 4.4%.

The punishment seems cynical in the midst of a protracted economic crisis where for years now EU governments and the US have been applying countercyclical measures keeping interest rates very low and pumping ample liquidity into their economies. Yet, the EU insists that Hungary keep its deficit under 3% by way of imposing further austerity on a population whose living standards have fallen to levels last seen in the 1970s.

The besieged government would like a standby credit agreement with the IMF to calm the markets agitated by the constant stream of bad news and be able to access the markets on less than punitive terms. After all, the ECB has injected  over a trillion euros of liquidity into eurozone banks to reassure markets and prop up ailing eurozone sovereign bonds.

However, the IMF whose mandate is purely financial and economic refuses to negotiate with the Hungarian government until it has complied with the EU's political demands regarding laws and constitution. Even then, it is unwilling to provide Hungary with a mere credit line as requested but insists on the country accepting a credit package, of course, with strings attached. One of the most important economic policy conditions is the lifting of the special levies imposed on some sectors.

We are now getting closer to the real reasons of the furore surrounding Hungary.

In order to better understand the picture it is necessary to look back into the economic history of the past twenty years. The economic transition of Central Europe from planned to market economy has been hailed a great success. Uncontrolled privatization went nowhere farther than in Hungary. Successive governments heeded the advice of foreign advisers and international organizations  deeming the speedy and often very cheap sale of assets to foreign companies the best way to 'catch up' with Western economic development.

Looking around twenty years later Hungarians find a bizarre economic landscape dominated by a handful of big foreign companies and huge shopping malls with barely a single local name or product. Whole sectors have been wiped out and quite a few remaining ones are almost wholly foreign-dominated. Unemployment is high, the huge external debt inherited and inexplicably taken over from the Soviet era is ballooning fed by intercompany loans from Western companies to their Hungarian subsidiaries. Economic growth is languishing, foreign companies' profits are repatriated and little is recirculated into the local economy.

When the current government came into power in 2010, it found a country in tatters with a dramatically increased external debt burden and huge swathes of the population sinking into inexorable poverty where families – educated, working people – have difficulties paying their utility or dental bills.

In its efforts to reduce debt and thus vulnerability, the government decided to introduce some measures designed to return the economy to growth. Amongst these measures is the temporary windfall tax  on the financial, retail, energy and telecoms sectors, which had been exceptionally profitable.  Such taxes are not without precedent, and banking sector taxes have since been introduced in various European countries.

However, nowhere have they fallen mostly on foreign shoulders because nowhere else is foreign ownership as dominant as in Hungary. Both the IMF and the EU mention  Hungary's 'unorthodox' move taxing mostly 'foreign' companies but fail to mention that these foreign companies have literally taken over almost whole economic sectors. It seems that it is not so much the imposition of windfall taxes but the fact that foreigners have to pay these that they find objectionable.

The rarely mentioned fact is that foreign companies in Hungary have got used to generous tax holidays and financial incentives, and a generally lax operating environment. The special taxes have raised the spectre of a new situation where these privileges and the usual level of excess profits might be reduced.

Thirteen foreign companies in Hungary wrote to the EC in 2010 demanding sanctions against Hungary of the special taxes. Their countries support them and use the EU's institutions to put pressure on Hungary to lift these burdensome taxes and return to the status quo.

Hungary is vulnerable through its heavy indebtedness. It has never been granted debt forgiveness as Poland in 1991 or Greece now. Some financial analysts have recently commented that improving market conditions would be unwelcome as Hungary could then commercially finance itself and would not have to agree to the IMF's conditions. This, in turn, would also lift the urgent need to comply with the EU's political demands which often verge on open interference with Hungarian sovereignty.
This particular configuration is a unique opportunity for the EU to show that small member states have no right to pursue any measure of political or economic independence. 

A sweeping offensive of pejorative news and punitive measures is creating an atmosphere where financial markets become inaccessible and the country can be forced to return to the status quo: economic conditions favouring foreign capital and a political environment preparing the abolition of nations states.

This is colonization in the 21st century. Hungary, and indeed Central Europe, expected better in 1990.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 17, 2012, 12:45:11 AM
QuoteHungarians cannot help noticing the double standard applied to their country in every aspect.

Of course they cannot.  Victimization and paranoia come naturally to many Eastern Europeans.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 01:37:13 AM
QuoteThe rarely mentioned fact is that foreign companies in Hungary have got used to generous tax holidays and financial incentives, and a generally lax operating environment. The special taxes have raised the spectre of a new situation where these privileges and the usual level of excess profits might be reduced

That's sweet. They are right in the companies having these incentives, I don't like these incentives (altough if we don't give them, our neighbors do and I end up toiling away on a farm or something).
HOWEVER, Orban just recently licked Mercedes' shoes clean, and will shortly introduce a new labor law making it much-much easier to screw over easy-to-replace unskilled labor.

So if he is doing anything in regards to these big furreigner companies, it is kissing their ass more than ever.
Except when he is striking them with extra taxes and regulations to favor the oligarchs who helped him to power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 06, 2012, 08:23:38 AM
Unleash Marty! The police again banned Budapest Pride. Last year the court had them allow it.

They say it is because of their planned path blocking traffic. Of course, at least allegedly, that route is the exact same as the huge government-supporting march had, and the police had no problems with that.

Why unleash Marty? I don't think my opinion about Fidesz can be any lower than it is already. It's a kind of a shadenfreude seeing them take that country crashing and burning into oblivion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:49:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

Wow, Hungarians are dumber than I thought, even dumber than Poles. Why is your nation so fucking stupid, Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 01:58:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:49:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

Wow, Hungarians are dumber than I thought, even dumber than Poles. Why is your nation so fucking stupid, Tamas?

Well, on the positive side, this has provoked a lot of responses, and allegedly an internal strife within Jobbik, as their "moderates" (I guess they only want to herd jews to camps and not gas them) threw a hissy fit about stuff like that denying them Parlaiment in 2014 (as if).

Orban even took the time to speak in Parlaiment and declare that they shall protect all minorities including jews.

Of course, that is better than saying the opposite or remaining silent, but I can't help feeling sick that in 2012 the "jewish question" is slowly crawling back to Parlaiment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 02:51:36 AM
I wonder if what we are seeing today (not just in Hungary) is some sort of another "beginning of an end", the way it was before the WW2, or is this simply (post)politics as usual.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 02:54:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 02:51:36 AM
I wonder if what we are seeing today (not just in Hungary) is some sort of another "beginning of an end"

I am growing more and more certain of that :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 03:29:57 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 01, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.

I don't know to what extent, but what I've read in places like Economist have been fairly begative towards the current government.

Yeah, I think they are pretty objective (or at least close to what I call "Languish Euro-Atlanticism") so they are to the right of my views, usually, and close to the centre.

They have been rather positive about the Polish government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 03:30:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 02:54:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 02:51:36 AM
I wonder if what we are seeing today (not just in Hungary) is some sort of another "beginning of an end"

I am growing more and more certain of that :(

Come on now, I've still got a lot more money to make.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 03:47:30 AM
I  mean, just look at it:

-we are not in de facto major depression, but sure as hell on the edge of it, and has been in a late-30s like stagnation as far as I can tell
-there are major political uncertanities making stuff unpredictable (arab spring comes to mind)
-the states vulnerable to such things are being more and more open to radicalism
-economic weakness jeopardizing European cooperation

we can still turn this around, but will historians of the future b REALLY surprised to see this deteriorate into either some major crisises, or full-blown WW3 eventually?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
A secret, but leaked calculation of the finance ministry revealed that the new student loan system they created (since people were yelling "omg let us learn" and they, as opposition, heavily attacked the socialist government for the plans of abolishing a lot of state-funded college places), is not only very expensive as of this year, basically nullyfing all the meager budget cuts they made elsewhere, but also destined to totally ruin the budget, if left unmodified, by 2020. I am not sure about the details, but they calculate that by 2020, it would double the budget deficit, on it's own.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 04:31:15 AM
to continue, since the scheme gives state-sponsored artifically low interest rates, the study warns the ministry, that everyone is in the interest of taking the loan when attending college, regardless of needing it or not, since the money they free up that way can be saved or invested with much better interest than they have to pay for the sponsored loan.

Socialism 0 - Human Nature 12425252
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 06:25:06 AM
Once again, it is just one of of the plans, but the mere existance of the idea is mind-blowing. A proposal was leaked from the finance ministry, suggesting to have a communication tax. A small fee on every SMS, phone call, internet connection, etc. 
Yay!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:49:58 AM
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/the-new-hungarian-secret-police/


QuoteThe New Hungarian Secret Police

Kim Lane Scheppele
Tuesday 17 April 2012

Brad Pitt knows all about the TEK, Hungary's new counter-terrorism police.

When Pitt was in Budapest last October shooting World War Z, an upcoming zombie-thriller, TEK agents seized 100 machine guns, automatic pistols and sniper rifles that had been flown to Hungary for use as props in the movie. The weapons were disabled and came with no ammunition. But the Hungarian counter-terrorism police determined that they constituted a serious threat.

The dead-pan seizure of movie props made TEK the laughing stock of the world. As David Itzkoff joked in the pages of the New York Times, "If Hungary ever finds itself the target of an undead invasion, its police force should now be well supplied to defend the nation."

Few have taken TEK seriously. But that is a big mistake. In fact, TEK seems to be turning into Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's own secret police. In less than two years, TEK has amassed truly Orwellian powers, including virtually unlimited powers of secret surveillance and secret data collection.

The speaker of the Parliament, László Kövér, now has his own armed guard too, since the Parliament yesterday passed a law that creates a separate armed police force accountable to the Parliament. It too has extraordinary powers not normally associated with a Parliamentary guard. The creation of this "Parlia-military" gives Hungary the dubious distinction of having the only Parliament in Europe with its own armed guard that has the power to search and "act in" private homes.

About the Parlia-military, more later. First, to TEK.

TEK was created in September 2010 by a governmental decree, shortly after the Fidesz government took office. TEK exists outside the normal command structure of both the police and the security agencies. The Prime Minister directly names (and can fire) its head and only the interior minister stands between him and the direct command of the force. It is well known that the head of this force is a very close confidante of the Prime Minister.

TEK was set up as an anti-terror police unit within the interior ministry and given a budget of 10 billion forints (about $44 million) in a time of austerity. Since then, it has grown to nearly 900 employees in a country of 10.5 million people that is only as big as Indiana.

Why was TEK necessary? When it was created, the government said that it needed TEK because Hungary would hold the rotating presidency of the European Union starting in January 2011. During the six months it held this office, Hungary could be expected to host many important meetings for which top anti-terrorism security would be necessary. But even though Hungary's stint in the EU chair is over, TEK has continued to grow.

Eyebrows were raised when János Hajdu, Orbán's personal bodyguard, was appointed directly by the prime minister to be the first head of this new agency. Since TEK's job also included guarding the prime minister, some believed that Orbán had set up the office to get his trusted bodyguard onto the public payroll. Patronage turns out to be the least of the worries about TEK, however.

TEK is now the sort of secret police that any authoritarian ruler would love to have. Its powers have been added slowly but surely through a series of amendments to the police laws, pushed through the Parliament at times when it was passing hundreds of new laws and when most people, myself included, did not notice. The new powers of TEK have received virtually no public discussion in Hungary. But now, its powers are huge.

What can the TEK do?

TEK can engage in secret surveillance without having to give reasons or having to get permission from anyone outside the cabinet. In an amendment to the police law passed in December 2010, TEK was made an official police agency and was given this jurisdiction to spy on anyone. TEK now has the legal power to secretly enter and search homes, engage in secret wiretapping, make audio and video recordings of people without their knowledge, secretly search mail and packages, and surreptitiously confiscate electronic data (for example, the content of computers and email). The searches never have to be disclosed to the person who is the target of the search – or to anyone else for that matter. In fact, as national security information, it may not be disclosed to anyone. There are no legal limits on how long this data can be kept.

Ordinary police in Hungary are allowed to enter homes or wiretap phones only after getting a warrant from a judge. But TEK agents don't have to go to a judge for permission to spy on someone – they only need the approval of the justice minister to carry out such activities. As a result, requests for secret surveillance are never reviewed by an independent branch of government. The justice minister approves the requests made by a secret police unit operated by the interior minister. Since both are in the same cabinet of the same government, they are both on the same political team.

TEK's powers were enlarged again in another set of amendments to the police law passed on 30 December 2011, the day that many other laws were passed in a huge end-of-year flurry. With those amendments, TEK now has had the legal authority to collect personal data about anyone by making requests to financial companies (like banks and brokerage firms), insurance companies, communications companies (like cell phone and internet service providers) – as well as state agencies. Data held by state agencies include not only criminal and tax records but also educational and medical records – and much more. Once asked, no private company or state agency may refuse to provide data to TEK.


Before December 2011, TEK had the power to ask for data like this, but they could only do so in conjunction with a criminal investigation and with the permission of the public prosecutor. After December 2011, their data requests no longer had to be tied to criminal investigations or be approved by the prosecutor. In fact, they have virtually no limits on what data they can collect and require no permission from anyone.

If an organization (like an internet service provider, a bank or state agency) is asked to turn over personally identifiable information, the organization may not tell anyone about the request. People whose data have been turned over to TEK are deliberately kept in the dark.

These powers are shocking, not just because of their scope, but also because most Hungarians knowledgeable about constitutional law would probably have thought they were illegal. After the changes of 1989, the new Hungarian Constitutional Court was quick to dismantle the old system in which the state could compile in one place huge amounts of personal information about individuals. In its "PIN number" decision of 1991, the Constitutional Court ruled that the state had to get rid of the single "personal identifier number" (PIN) so that personally identifiable data could no longer be linked across state agencies. The Court found that "everyone has the right to decide about the disclosure and use of his/her personal data" and that approval by the person concerned is generally required before personal data can be collected. It was the essence of totalitarianism, the Court found, for personal information about someone to be collected and amassed into a personal profile without the person's knowledge.

With that Constitutional Court decision still on the books and not formally overruled, the Fidesz government is reproducing the very system that the Court had banned by creating a single agency that can gather all private information about individuals in one place again. What, one might ask, is left of constitutional law in Hungary?

One might also ask: Are there any limits to TEK's power?

The law specifies that TEK operates both as a police and as a national security agency. When it is acting as a police unit, it has the jurisdiction to spy on any person or group who poses a threat of terrorism, along with anyone else associated with such persons. Hungary, like many countries after 9/11, has a broad definition of terrorism that includes, among other things, planning to commit a "crime against the public order" with the purpose of "coercing a state body . . . into action, non-action or toleration." Crimes against the public order include a long list of violent crimes, but also the vaguer "causing public danger." In addition, TEK also may arrest "dangerous individuals," a term not defined in the criminal law. It is difficult from the text of the law itself to see any clear limits on TEK's powers.

And TEK is very active. On April 7, TEK agents were called in to capture a young man in the small village of Kulcs who killed four members of his family with a machete. And then, in the early morning hours of Friday, April 13, TEK agents conducted a major drug bust in Budapest, arresting 23 people. According to news reports, fully 120 TEK agents were involved in the drug operation, raising questions about whether the drug bust was thought to be part of the anti-terrorism mission of the agency or a rather broad extension of the concept of the "dangerous individual." Either way, the drug ring looked like garden-variety crime. If that is within TEK's jurisdiction, it is hard to imagine what is not.

A You-Tube video of the April 13 drug bust, made available by TEK itself, shows what a middle-of-the-night raid by TEK officers looks like, complete with the use of heavy-duty tools to cut open an exterior door.

Given that this is the video that TEK wanted you to see, one can only imagine the activities of TEK that are not recorded for posterity. (It would be interesting to know, for example, why the audio cuts out at certain points in the clip, as well as what happens between the time that TEK breaks open the door and the time the various suspects are seen lying handcuffed on the floor.)

While its videos are crystal clear, TEK's legal status is blurry, as some parts of its activities are authorized under the police law and others parts are authorized under the national security law. Different rules and standards apply to police agencies and to national security agencies. Moreover, TEK seems to have some powers that exceed those of both police and national security agencies, particularly in its ability to avoid judicial warrants. No other agency in the Hungarian government has both police and national security powers, and it is unclear precisely how the agency is accountable – for which functions, under what standards and to whom. What follows is my best guess from reading the law.

With respect to its powers authorized under the police law, it appears that TEK must act like the police and get judicial warrants to search houses, to wiretap and to capture electronic data when these activities are part of a criminal investigation. When TEK was arresting the machete-wielder and making the drug bust, it was probably acting under its police powers.

But TEK only need judicial warrants when it is engaged in criminal investigations. It doesn't need judicial warrants when it is using its secret surveillance powers in security investigations. When it is acting as a national security agency, TEK only needs the permission of the justice minister to engage in secret and intrusive surveillance. Of course, given that the permissions and constraints are different depending on whether TEK is acting as a police agency or a national security agency, it would matter who decides whether a particular activity is conducted for police or national security purposes and what the criteria are for determining that it is one or the other. The law does not provide the answer to either question.

Suppose someone believes that she has been spied upon illegally by TEK. What can she do to object? First, if TEK is engaged in secret surveillance or data collection, it is unlikely that people will know that they are a target, given the extraordinary secrecy of the whole operation. But even if one finds out that one is being watched, the remedies are not encouraging.

A person aggrieved by TEK's actions may complain to the interior minister, and the interior minister must answer the complaint within 30 days. But given that the interior minister is the minister who controls TEK in the first place, this is not an independent review. If the complainant does not like the answer of the interior minister, s/he may appeal to the Parliament's national security committee, which must muster a one-third vote to hear the petition. At the moment, the 12-member national security committee consists of two-thirds governing party members and one-third members of all other parties combined. If the governing party does not want to investigate a complaint, garnering a one-third vote would mean uniting the whole opposition – or, to put it in more blunt terms, getting the Socialists to work with the neo-Nazis. That is unlikely to happen. Even if the national security committee agrees to hear a petition, however, it would take a two-thirds vote of the committee to require the interior minister to reveal the surveillance methods used against the complainant so that the committee can determine whether they were legal. There is no judicial review at any stage of this process.

TEK operates in secret with extraordinary powers and no one reliably independent of the current governing party can review what it is doing when it uses its most potentially abusive powers. This shocking accumulation of power may explain the Hungarian government's abolition of a separate data protection ombudsman who would have the power to investigate such shocking accumulation of data. Instead, the data protection officer – a post required by European Union law – has been made a political appointee of the government itself. This is why the EU has launched an infringement action against Hungary for failing to guarantee the independence of the office. Now we can see why the EU may be onto something.

As if the powers of TEK are not enough, though, Parliament yesterday authorized another security service with the power to use police measures against citizens and residents of Hungary. The cardinal law on the Parliament itself contains a provision that gives the Parliament its own military, a Parlia-military.

The Parlia-military is an armed police unit outside the chain of command of the regular military or police structures. Its commander in chief is the speaker of the house, László Kövér, who served as minister without portfolio for the Civilian Intelligence Services during the first Orbán government from 1998-2002. The Parlia-military has the power to guard the Parliament and the speaker of the house, as might be expected. But if the Parlia-military is only supposed to guard the Parliament and the speaker, why does it need the powers that the cardinal law gives it?

The law gives the Parlia-military power "to enter and to act in private homes." That's literally what the law says. It is unlikely that the Parliament will want to conduct a plenary session in someone's living room, so one must then wonder just what the Parliament will do if its armed military enters someone's home to "act." In addition to this power, the Parlia-military may also make public audio and video recordings of people. It can also search cars, luggage and clothing. It can use handcuffs and chemical substances (which I assume means tear gas and nothing more, but the wording make it sound like the Parlia-military may use chemical weapons!). The draft law seems to imply that the Parlia-military would have to operate under the constraints of the police law, which would mean that it would need judicial warrants to conduct these intrusive measures. But that is not completely clear. What is clear is that Hungary now suffers from a proliferation of police that are under direct political control.

Until this point, I have thought that the Fidesz government was just attempting to lock down power for itself for the foreseeable future, which was bad enough. But now, with the discovery of these new security services, it seems increasingly likely that the Hungarian government is heading toward the creation of a police state. Actually, it may already be there. But shhhh! It's secret.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 20, 2012, 07:56:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_yPVomgotq-k%2FRz6UG9V6v3I%2FAAAAAAAAADg%2FBBQeeqs2Tps%2Fs400%2F5TekHCFCs.JPG&hash=4fa51d0a939b3bfada9379295b3736d09bb7401e)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 20, 2012, 07:57:00 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 20, 2012, 07:56:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_yPVomgotq-k%2FRz6UG9V6v3I%2FAAAAAAAAADg%2FBBQeeqs2Tps%2Fs400%2F5TekHCFCs.JPG&hash=4fa51d0a939b3bfada9379295b3736d09bb7401e)

:nerd:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 20, 2012, 09:39:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?

leave the country while you still can.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 20, 2012, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?
People on Paradox told me that the only problem is EU meddling in your internal affairs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
yeah, I got two bad-boy points on the forum due to my reaction  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on April 20, 2012, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
yeah, I got two bad-boy points on the forum due to my reaction  :lol:

Seriously, why the fuck don't you get out before it's too late? Aren't you somewhat educated and shouldn't you be able to get a job in some other EU country?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2012, 12:11:00 PM
Maybe Tamas is a patriot and will not abandon mother Magyarország.

Or maybe he is still hoping to get one of those super hot Hungarian girls.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Threviel on April 20, 2012, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
yeah, I got two bad-boy points on the forum due to my reaction  :lol:

Seriously, why the fuck don't you get out before it's too late? Aren't you somewhat educated and shouldn't you be able to get a job in some other EU country?

I thought you were telling Tamas to get out of the Paradox forum before it's too late. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on April 20, 2012, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?

I dunno man - surely they know there's a line they simply can't cross without Europe putting some pretty massive sanctions in place / kicking them out of the EU.  And refusing to relinquish government after losing an election is that line.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 20, 2012, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?

I dunno man - surely they know there's a line they simply can't cross without Europe putting some pretty massive sanctions in place / kicking them out of the EU.  And refusing to relinquish government after losing an election is that line.

Yes, of course, good point. Then again, they just replied to the EU regarding the laws the economy-related laws they didnt like. Apparently, they didn't fix what the EU didn't like, and changed what was oroginally okay. Asshatery and provocation when EU and IMF money is a matter of life and death since they won't do austerity.

In other words: I am not entirely dismissing the consipration theories which say that Orban is looking for a controlled defaulting of the country, to finish off the economic conquest of the country by his peers, and make a basis for his future autocratic means.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 21, 2012, 10:02:56 AM
Laszlo Kover, Chair of Parlaiment, and interim President (also future commander of that Parlai-police the NYT article wrote about) had an interview on their TV station.
The quotes reflect the attitude of these heroic fighters of EU opression:

It has been decided that not himself, but an other college buddy of Orban, Janos Ader, shall become President. Speaking about this, and the opposition's criticism on a party-soldier becoming Prez, he reflected that:
"MSZP [the socialists, main opposition party] would do better not to attend the inaguration of the President. At least their presence would not make the occation ugly" He also added:
"It would be better if they weren't in Parlaiment at all, I already talked about this. It is a moral scandal to have them there."

Sharing his wisdom on some whatever-stuff LMP (the new, hipster-ish leftie party) said:
"How dare a 11-12 people faction act like meaningful consultation starts when things go the way they want them to be? That's life, you should have earned more seats."

On LMP's failed attempt to start off a populist referendum:
"A busybody, agressive, arrogant minority dictates. They look like the worst days of SZDSZ [collapsed liberal party]. Unbelievable."

Further thoughts on the new President, and the recent scandal over his predecessor's plagiarism:

"I wonder what they will bring up against Ader. Maybe he ate someone's snacks in kindergarten, or committed household violence when he beat his sister. or I don't know, what will be the theme for the coming months."
"...just because some nobody, lowlife, pen-wielding terrorists think that they can hurt their political opponents most through him"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 23, 2012, 11:29:30 AM
The government unveiled a plan to the EU, which aims to prop up the budget by about 600 billion forints in 2013 (divide by about 290-300 to get the euro value).

Third of it will come from various small cost-cuts, the rest are new taxes. Such as the transaction and communication taxes I already mentioned, and some kind of "insurance tax".

A nice trivia about the cinicism is that a small entry among savings is the elimination of 3 minor taxes. One of which is the 98% tax on public employee severence payments, which they introduce at the start of their reign, and it went back to include all socialist-era dignitaries and their golden parachutes. (they were careful to cut the deadline before anyone from the first FIDESZ government would be affected, though).

In other words, now that nobody significant from the "enemy" remains in office, they will be free to reintroduce golden parachutes for their own people. And they sell this as a development.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on April 23, 2012, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
In other words: I am not entirely dismissing the consipration theories which say that Orban is looking for a controlled defaulting of the country, to finish off the economic conquest of the country by his peers, and make a basis for his future autocratic means.

I'm not that well informed, but my understanding from when Orban took over was that Hungary was basically Greece without the euro (thus not much reason for anyone to bend over backward for them). Ie, a trainwreck was coming regardless of how the government behaved. Unless I was wrong, a controlled defaulting is probably the best the country can do.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 25, 2012, 07:28:45 AM
Tamas, what's the deal behind this?  What are the assurances?
Quote1.11pm: There's some good news for Hungary, which has been stuck in a dispute with the European Commission over the independence of its central bank for the past five months.

The EC says it is satisfied with assurances from Budapest that its central bank law would be brought back in line with that of the European Union. That paves the way for talks over financial aid to stabilise Hungary's faltering economy.

There's been a war of words up to this point, with the EC questioning "the quality of democracy" in Hungary; and Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban this week accusing the EU of setting unfair preconditions for talks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2012, 07:32:56 AM
The assurance I know of is Orban's word. ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2012, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 23, 2012, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
In other words: I am not entirely dismissing the consipration theories which say that Orban is looking for a controlled defaulting of the country, to finish off the economic conquest of the country by his peers, and make a basis for his future autocratic means.

I'm not that well informed, but my understanding from when Orban took over was that Hungary was basically Greece without the euro (thus not much reason for anyone to bend over backward for them). Ie, a trainwreck was coming regardless of how the government behaved. Unless I was wrong, a controlled defaulting is probably the best the country can do.

I think was plenty of time to correct things. The strategic problem is the chronic overspending, we finance our living via foreign credit.

That's what Orban had a chance to change (via his supermajority), but he didn't. After he took over he had all the excuse for austerity and welfare cuts because of the highly unpopulare predecessors he had in the Socialists. But now 2 years have passed. He will not cut spending until the next elections, just raise taxes, and beat our economy to the ground.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2012, 01:47:16 PM
Meh.

Earlier during the FIDESZ reign there was some talk of liberalizing the weapon law, so you would be more free to get a gun permit, and to defend your property with it.

Well, no, they are done changing that law now. Only change affecting the layman is that archaic weapons will be needing a permit, so much for buying a musket to feel safer at home!

Basically all of the easing concerns making the life of hunters easier regarding handling of their weapon, and guarding it.

I wonder if it is a coincidence that the vice-PM is a huge fan of hunting :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on April 25, 2012, 02:01:31 PM
I used to have a Hungarian Mosin-Nagant that was pretty much beaten to shit but still shot pretty accurately.  I think I had originally paid $35 for it :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 27, 2012, 01:22:15 PM
lol in Miskolc, the shittiest of our main cities, out in the north east, the mayor had to make an extra decree about forcing people to actually stick to the law when receiving their welfare money.

Because, you see, legally, you can get it at the post office, or you can have the mailman bring it to you.
But the gyp... I mean the welfare receivers have made a habit of ambushing the mailmen en masse, once one of them dared stepping out of the post office door, on welfare-money day.
So what you had, were scenes in front of the post office, were this horde of gyp... welfare receivers would sourround the mailman and yell at him until he managed to pay their due. Noise, abuse, and trickery were abundant.

So they now made this strictly verboten and assigned some policemen on mailman escort duty in the vicinity of the post offices.

edit: a report sez though that the mailmen are not enthusiastic about the change. With the mob around them, they could pay out most of the welfare in a grand swoop, now they have to go one-by-one. And they speculate that it was safer too, since nobody would attempt to rob them from the mob, since the rest would just beat the shit out of him/her right there, the money being theirs. Now they will have to navigate some pretty shady neighborhoods alone with big slums of cash.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 27, 2012, 01:37:33 PM
Wait, someone literally walks around with the money and distributes it?  :huh:
Why don't you use bank transfers?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 27, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 27, 2012, 01:37:33 PM
Wait, someone literally walks around with the money and distributes it?  :huh:
Why don't you use bank transfers?

Dude, a lot of these people never had a job in their life, and barely finished elementary school. They will not go and create bank accounts.

The government is working on having these welfare payments being sent to the electric cafeteria-benefit cards we employed people also use, altough needless to say it is meeting heavy resistance from bleeding hearts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 27, 2012, 07:16:00 PM
Didn't Orban build guns for the Turks in 1453? Dude must be like a thousand years old now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2012, 08:01:07 AM
Our National Tax Authority has put ITSELF on the public blacklist of people/companies with too much tax credits.

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 17, 2012, 01:45:52 PM
Interesting. Orban suggested that state sponorship of political parties should stop from next year.

Right now they receive money based on the number of their seats in Parlaiment. It is 80-90% of their official income.

I of course support the idea, but one cannot miss the timing of this proposal: FIDESZ is everywhere, their sponsors and vassals in the economy control everything, or in full-fledged offensive to control everything, with legal support.

So of course FIDESZ doesn't need that state money anymore. They ARE the state. But they can eliminate the chances of the other parties for running an effective election campaign.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 23, 2012, 01:30:27 AM
Read an article in Der Spiegel which said that Hungarian students will now have to stay twice the length of their studies in Hungary after graduation. Despite paying tuition fees and youth unemployment of 25%. The consequence is apparently that the emigration doesn't happen after their studies but before...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:32:01 AM
Hungary = failed state :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2012, 01:34:17 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2012, 01:30:27 AM
Read an article in Der Spiegel which said that Hungarian students will now have to stay twice the length of their studies in Hungary after graduation. Despite paying tuition fees and youth unemployment of 25%.

That's for when their fees are paid by the state.

Still retarded. IMHO there should be
a) less state-funded places. there are only so many sociologists you need, not mention teachers in a shrinking population
b) concentrate the state funds on paying fees for the successful, hard working students. I can accept that state funding of higher education is an investment for society, especially for backwardish states like ours. What I can't accept is sponsoring the partying and loitering of layabouts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2012, 01:15:39 PM
If they give 500 million forints to a private company as a grant, and that results in 25 new (allegedly high-skilled, mind you) jobs, doesn't that mean that you spent 20 million forints (more than 90k dollars I think) per new job? That means the ROI is like 20 years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2012, 01:26:43 PM
which reminds me - these "national consultations" are ridicoulous. They are spending tons of money on sending out these questionaries, with such important, highly debated topics as "should the creation of new jobs be encouraged?" and the like. And there is the accompanying advertising campaign, with billboards, and the PM appearing on TV commercials to ask for your help in deciding on these important questions
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 11, 2012, 08:17:30 AM
There was some kind of annual event for attorneys.

The chief attorney, a long time friend of Orban, pointed out how he it was the first time that a reigning Prime Minister attended this event.

Orban said there is no more distance-holding between the government and the attorneys

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 03:27:42 AM
A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 05:38:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 03:27:42 AM
A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

LOL you guys are really fucked up.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 08:32:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 03:27:42 AM
A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

Great idea, I'm sure a future Hungary populated by children their parents had for a few more percent on their pension will be awesome.

In the meantime, I need to come up with 3 more kids, anyone here willing to be adult adopted?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 08:41:31 AM
What I also like is how they are trying to sell this as the trigger for a new baby boom.

An "incentive" for middle class families to raise children.

It tells volumes about these guys that they identify "incentive" as "do it this way or you're gonna be punished!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 08:57:25 AM
I understand France has some pretty serious bonuses for children - in particular for more than 2 children - and that it is showing success in maintaining a stable birth rate.

Europe is facing a pretty serious demographic problem with birth rates well below replacement.  A quick google shows that Hungary has an attrocious birth rate of 1.24 births per woman.

HUngary doesn't necessarily have to give bonuses on your pension, but on a quick glance you need to do *something*.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

What about the discriminatory/penalizing effect it has on people who are unable to have children (e.g. because they are barren or gay)? As Jacob points out, it makes sense to help people with child rearing, rather than giving them arbitrary benefits or penalties when this no longer matters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

:huh:

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

:huh:

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.

They will be in the labour market when they grow up. It's not like we need more people, which unemployment rates prove. If you want to reduce the argument to absurd levels, one working person can change diapers of 20 old people so it's not like you need to keep the replacement rates. Again, the whole "we need to keep the population growing to survive" is a false argument, that reeks of 19th century style nationalistic mentality.

Overpopulation is the problem, not "there isn't enough people".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

What about the discriminatory/penalizing effect it has on people who are unable to have children (e.g. because they are barren or gay)? As Jacob points out, it makes sense to help people with child rearing, rather than giving them arbitrary benefits or penalties when this no longer matters.

I know plenty of gay parents. :huh:

And do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.

Adjustments to pension isn't completely unconnected with child-rearing.  If you're raising kids that is less money you'd be able to save for your retirement.

I don't want to go too far defending this.  Jacob's critique is entirely valid - immediate benefits would make a much bigger difference than pension adjustments that won't be felt for 30-40 years (and are at the whim of a change of government).  But providing benefits to parents is a completely defensible public policy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:10:20 AM
Besides, the idea about incentivising people to have children by some "rewards" is both immoral and deeply dysfunctional - because it works on exactly the wrong kind of people.

What you want is for people who want to have children but are afraid of this being too much strain on them to have children - such people will not be affected by a promise of better pension - they need help now, as Jacob points out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
I know plenty of gay parents. :huh:
Sorry I can't adopt. I expect gay people in Hungary can't either.
QuoteAnd do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.
That's an idiotic argument and it makes me so mad you would say something like that. So it is fine to discriminate against people based on some characteristic because it would be awkward for people to prove that characteristic? That's unbelievably stupid.
Quote
Adjustments to pension isn't completely unconnected with child-rearing.  If you're raising kids that is less money you'd be able to save for your retirement.
Not true. State pension system collects a percentage of your income. The percentage is the same whether you have kids or not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.

Again, noone is really putting forward any convincing argument why having the population to decrease is such a bad thing. This is ultimately a sort of xenophobic/jingoistic argument that we can't allow the population gap against some other nation that will overrun us. This is 19th century thinking. The end result is global population constantly growing to the breaking point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:16:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

:huh:

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.

They will be in the labour market when they grow up. It's not like we need more people, which unemployment rates prove. If you want to reduce the argument to absurd levels, one working person can change diapers of 20 old people so it's not like you need to keep the replacement rates. Again, the whole "we need to keep the population growing to survive" is a false argument, that reeks of 19th century style nationalistic mentality.

Overpopulation is the problem, not "there isn't enough people".

Unemployment is a fairly short-term problem.  It goes up and down year by year.  Four years ago you didn't have an unemployment problem, and four years from now you may not have it again.  It's incredibly short-cited to look at such a short-term issue when compared to a long-term issue like demographics and fertility.

I'm not saying you want a growing population, and I'm not saying you need to ensure a particular "race" survives, but you do need a fairly stable population.

Do some google-fu on Japan and it's demographics.  It has one of the world's lowest fertility rates, and of course is almost completely closed to any immigration.  The general consensus is that Japan is completely fucked in the long term.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:16:53 AM
Do some google-fu on Japan and it's demographics.  It has one of the world's lowest fertility rates, and of course is almost completely closed to any immigration.  The general consensus is that Japan is completely fucked in the long term.

In the long term, the life on Earth will be extinct. Long term demographic planning has never worked in the past - there are too many variables. And in any event, when it comes to long term predictions, overpopulation and a Malthusian catastrophe is more likely (and more worrying) than there won't be enough Hungarians to wipe old Tamas's ass. If anything, we should find a way to reduce population globally.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.

I doubt that very much.  If, say, Hungary opened its doors to immigrants from the Phillipines or Bangladesh or Pakistan (and not to mention places like Somalia) they'd have as many immigrants as they would want.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Not true. State pension system collects a percentage of your income. The percentage is the same whether you have kids or not.

Marty, while I don't think the policy is a good idea, you seem to be overlooking how these programs work (assuming they Poland and Hungary are similar to how it is in most of the world). Your pension payments go to support current pensioners. They aren't in a bank account that you will draw on when you retire.

When you are a pensioner your payments will be received from then current workers. If there aren't many current workers, your generation won't have much of a pension. There is a logic in tying your pension payments to your contribution to the next generation that is paying for them. One of the reasons given for the falling birth rate in the west--which is a real problem for pension schemes--is that previously people wanted large families to support them in retirement, but now the government fills that role of support. This would reestablish that link.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:23:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:19:44 AM

I doubt that very much.  If, say, Hungary opened its doors to immigrants from the Phillipines or Bangladesh or Pakistan (and not to mention places like Somalia) they'd have as many immigrants as they would want.

In a schengen world I don't know if they could get away with that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:23:54 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Not true. State pension system collects a percentage of your income. The percentage is the same whether you have kids or not.

Marty, while I don't think the policy is a good idea, you seem to be overlooking how these programs work (assuming they Poland and Hungary are similar to how it is in most of the world). Your pension payments go to support current pensioners. They aren't in a bank account that you will draw on when you retire.

When you are a pensioner your payments will be received from then current workers. If there aren't many current workers, your generation won't have much of a pension. There is a logic in tying your pension payments to your contribution to the next generation that is paying for them. One of the reasons given for the falling birth rate in the west--which is a real problem for pension schemes--is that previously people wanted large families to support them in retirement, but now the government fills that role of support. This would reestablish that link.

That's not entirely true, at least in Poland (you have both elements). But that means that a person who pays the pension now and has no kids pays a greater rate already than someone who receives discounts and benefits from the state - so that evens out in the end, presumedly.

Not to mention, linking this to simply a number of babies coming out of someone's uterus (as opposed to e.g. raising a child to adulthood) is entirely moronic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
I know plenty of gay parents. :huh:
Sorry I can't adopt. I expect gay people in Hungary can't either.
QuoteAnd do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.
That's an idiotic argument and it makes me so mad you would say something like that. So it is fine to discriminate against people based on some characteristic because it would be awkward for people to prove that characteristic? That's unbelievably stupid.

Most of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P

And it is common sense to base public policy over what can be easily measured.  We don't tax you based on what you could have earned, but what you actually earned, because what you could have earned would be incredibly difficult to prove.

I'll try again Marty - google "demographic decline" or the slightly more hysterical "demographic decline".  Russia, eastern europe and Japan are all in for a heap of trouble in the coming decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:31:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:23:54 AM
Not to mention, linking this to simply a number of babies coming out of someone's uterus (as opposed to e.g. raising a child to adulthood) is entirely moronic.

If the actual policy was this I would agree with you.  I imagine though it is tied to raising children, not merely being a biological parent.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2012, 10:45:53 AM
New immigrants to Hungary would probably move swiftly on to greener pastures elsewhere within the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AMMost of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P

My partner would not have any legal rights to the child in case something happened to me. And btw, I knew you were not exactly romantic, but I pity your attitude to child rearing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
I have been saying for a while now: want more children, from parents who can actually feed and raise them on their own? Offer tax breaks after children. Not a fix monthly sum like we do, running a breeding program in the lowest strata, because their shitty lifestyle actually benefits from this (they can keep the child in shitty conditions and get by on the grants).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AMMost of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P

My partner would not have any legal rights to the child in case something happened to me. And btw, I knew you were not exactly romantic, but I pity your attitude to child rearing.

:huh:

What do you know about my attitude to child rearing?  I love my kid, eagerly await my second, and wish more people could experience that feeling.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2012, 10:45:53 AM
New immigrants to Hungary would probably move swiftly on to greener pastures elsewhere within the EU.

That probably is a problem.  I know it's an issue in Canada - areas like the east coast would like to attract more immigrants, but they all tend to get pulled into Toronto / Vancouver / Alberta.

As a total aside I was reviewing an impaired driving charge the other day.  The accused knew very little english, and asked to be read his rights in punjabi.  Well this being Edmonton in 2012...

... it was no problem, because the cop's partner who was with him also spoke punjabi. 

Back to the topic at hand: It's a problem, but there are measures that could be taken to combat it.  Quebec has been quite pro-active at inviting immigrants specifically to live in Quebec and learn French and with some success.  Make their residency contingent on residing in Hungary and/or taking Hungarian lessons.  Once they get citizenship some may ultimately leave, but some will stay.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 12, 2012, 11:06:15 AM
I support policies that help parents - though not to do with pensions but to do with costs of child care and the extra costs of having a kid.  If the population's not stable then growth will decline and more and more of our money will go on old people.  It's not a good thing for society.  I also like immigration for the same reason.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
I have been saying for a while now: want more children, from parents who can actually feed and raise them on their own? Offer tax breaks after children. Not a fix monthly sum like we do, running a breeding program in the lowest strata, because their shitty lifestyle actually benefits from this (they can keep the child in shitty conditions and get by on the grants).

I'm not sure that's quite right.

It's been a common complaint for the last 100+ years that we need "the right people" to have more kids.  But I think demographics and social scientists have shown that what's important is to have enough children being born period.  Yes some may stay mired in poverty, but many will climb the socio-economic ladder as well.

I have no problem with tax breaks to have more kids.  But you have to make sure that such a policy actually works to raise birth rates.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 12, 2012, 11:06:15 AM
I support policies that help parents - though not to do with pensions but to do with costs of child care and the extra costs of having a kid.  If the population's not stable then growth will decline and more and more of our money will go on old people.  It's not a good thing for society.  I also like immigration for the same reason.

It's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 12, 2012, 11:27:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AM
It's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
True enough.  It's a long-term problem in much of Europe.  Not those areas (like France and UK) where they like people having children and have immigration though :w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 12, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AMIt's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
Not necessarily. Population decline can be overcompensated by productivity growth.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 12, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AMIt's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
Not necessarily. Population decline can be overcompensated by productivity growth.

Potentially.  But that means the population decline had better be pretty gradual.  If you start getting into a -4% population growth it's going to be pretty hard for a developed country to compensate for that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on June 12, 2012, 12:04:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AMMost of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P
My partner would not have any legal rights to the child in case something happened to me. And btw, I knew you were not exactly romantic, but I pity your attitude to child rearing.
Partner?  Why would one of your rentboys want to be saddled with a child?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 02:09:23 AM
During the last couple of weeks, multiple holocaust memorials have been vandalized, the jewish cemetary in the city I work at damaged, the chief rabbi (whatever his official title may be) insulted on the streets of Budapest in broad daylight, and yesterday a 70 years old jewish guy was beaten for being a dirty jew, close to the synagogue
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 02:44:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Potentially.  But that means the population decline had better be pretty gradual.  If you start getting into a -4% population growth it's going to be pretty hard for a developed country to compensate for that.
-4% population growth is Poland from 1939-1944. I would agree that's not sustainable, but then most countries are not the victims of genocidial total war.

Germany's population declined by 0.1-0.2% annually in the last decade, yet per capita GDP and total GDP went up.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 13, 2012, 09:00:54 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 02:44:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Potentially.  But that means the population decline had better be pretty gradual.  If you start getting into a -4% population growth it's going to be pretty hard for a developed country to compensate for that.
-4% population growth is Poland from 1939-1944. I would agree that's not sustainable, but then most countries are not the victims of genocidial total war.

Germany's population declined by 0.1-0.2% annually in the last decade, yet per capita GDP and total GDP went up.

As pointed out Germany is one of those countries that is compensating by immigration.

Check out some of the projections for places like Japan.  They've only just tipped in the last few years into population decline, but it's set to increase rapidly over the next few decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 10:24:17 AM
4% population decline would mean that Japan would lose about 110 million of its current 128 million population over the next fifty years. I can't think of any serious predictions claiming that.

From predictions I can find, their annual population decline will be less than 1%. Which might be compensated through productivity growth when you consider that Japan had a productivity growth rate of something like 1.5-2% over the last decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 13, 2012, 10:39:01 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 10:24:17 AM
4% population decline would mean that Japan would lose about 110 million of its current 128 million population over the next fifty years. I can't think of any serious predictions claiming that.

From predictions I can find, their annual population decline will be less than 1%. Which might be compensated through productivity growth when you consider that Japan had a productivity growth rate of something like 1.5-2% over the last decades.

Not going to spend too much time on it, but the first credible link I could find:

QuoteBut by far our most serious problem is a declining and aging population. Given present trends, total population will likely decline from around 130 million to under 90 million in 50 years or so. By that same time, 40 percent of Japanese could be over 65.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/opinion/02tamamoto.html?_r=2&em

and

QuoteOn U.N. calculations, the 2010 population of 127 million will shrink by a fifth, to 101.6 million in 2050. Moreover, the decline speeds up over time, with the population dropping by 6.65% between 2015 and 2030, but plummeting a whopping 13.4% from 2030 to 2050-far and away the worst growth projection in the world. Consider that Pakistan is expected to nearly double its population, to 335 million, in the same period.

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2012/01/19/japans_coming_demographic_crisis_99850.html

So no, not anywhere near a 4% annual decline.  Less than 1% annually in fact.

But it's pretty darn hard to increase productivity in a fully industrialized nation at rates greater than 1% per year.  And the total population figures mask the more serious problem that the % of the total population that is working is also going down.  Not only are populations getting smaller, but the proportion of that population that is actually productive is decreasing.

Not sure where you are getting the 1.5-2% figure for Japan.  Japan of course had tremendous productivity increases from 1945-1990 or so - because it was industrializing and developing.  Since then it's been fairly stagnant.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...

Screw you dude. ROMAnians have more gypos. Probably Bulgarians as well :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 14, 2012, 01:27:34 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 13, 2012, 10:39:01 AMNot sure where you are getting the 1.5-2% figure for Japan.  Japan of course had tremendous productivity increases from 1945-1990 or so - because it was industrializing and developing.  Since then it's been fairly stagnant.
OECD puts multi-factor productivity growth at 1.5% for 1985-2010, at 0.8% for 2000-2010 and at 1.6% for 2001-2007.

Labor productivity growth was even higher for most years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...

Screw you dude. ROMAnians have more gypos. Probably Bulgarians as well :P

:lmfao: Rom means "man" in their language, since it comes from the well-know indo-european word "Ram" (see Ramayana). A patriarchal society filled with gypsies just got used with naming themselves "romani" and obtained official recognition for this. We name them "tigani", as some of our latin counterparts.

Now, using your line of thought, all Romanians should be proud that the byzantines called their state "Romania". Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on June 14, 2012, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.

So you claim that they were romanians?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on June 14, 2012, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...

Screw you dude. ROMAnians have more gypos. Probably Bulgarians as well :P

Pre-Trianon Hungary had all the Gyppos. No worry in the HiS game I'll be liberating the Gyppos from their Hungarian Overlords.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 14, 2012, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.

So you claim that they were romanians?

No, I'm claiming that the name taken by a certain population means shit when we discuss heritage or ethnical/civilizational ethos. Gypsies call themselves Romani but this has nothing to do with Rome, Romans or Romanians. Likewise we have a Romanian state that has nothing in common with Romania, the medieval entity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 14, 2012, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 14, 2012, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.

So you claim that they were romanians?

No, I'm claiming that the name taken by a certain population means shit when we discuss heritage or ethnical/civilizational ethos. Gypsies call themselves Romani but this has nothing to do with Rome, Romans or Romanians. Likewise we have a Romanian state that has nothing in common with Romania, the medieval entity.

If it makes you feel better, in slang Polish, "Rumun" ("a Romanian") means a homeless beggar. There are many racist jokes about Romanians being homeless, dirty, smelly and beggars.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
Quotebeing homeless, dirty, smelly and beggars

Aren't those the main traits of your potential dates?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on June 14, 2012, 01:48:55 PM
Really? As a pole I don't think you what to start a "what the name for your *nationals mean in my country" arguement lol


* there has to be a more accurate term for that, but it escapes me
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: ulmont on June 14, 2012, 01:53:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 14, 2012, 01:48:55 PM
Really? As a pole I don't think you what to start a "what the name for your *nationals mean in my country" arguement lol


* there has to be a more accurate term for that, but it escapes me

Demonym.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on June 14, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
Quotebeing homeless, dirty, smelly and beggars

Aren't those the main traits of your potential dates?

Marti generally pays for men who are fairly cute.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 03:42:50 PM
One doesn't rule out the other.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 19, 2012, 03:43:20 AM
I think we will be the first democracy where you can get a year in prison for dissing the Holy Crown.

there is a big modification in works for criminal law, and Jobbik's proposal to raise the Holy Crown among the national symbols (along with the flag and the anthem) which you can't demeaner (sp?) without going to jail.

I am not sure what the current ruling is on that. The whole thing looks silly, if we have freedom of speech, why can't I insult our depressive and overly melodramatic anthem, for example?

But a more practical planned change is increased rights for self-defense. Right now you must keep proportionality in mind, so even if there is a huge-ass guy coming against you with his head-sized fists to plummet you to the ground, you can't grab a club to bludgeon him with it, without risking prison. From mid- next year however, you cannot be punished if the court declares the act to be self-defense, proportionate or not.
This also goes for armed intruders on your property - which I like, since if you are awaken by some thugs going through your stuff, you really have no time to decide if they have knives for cutting bread, or your throat.

Then again, there are no rules of easing the weapon-permit laws, so the practical benefits of these new property-defense laws are rather moot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on June 19, 2012, 11:30:37 AM
 :lol:

So you decry the slow turn towards Fascism, the corrupt cash grabs, the hollowing out of the rule of law, the obvious attempts to exert control over previously independent institutions, and the blind eye turned towards the excesses of thuggish government aligned cadres and nationalist activists?

But a plan to allow the use of extreme violence to defend yourself is a good development? You don't think it's going to be used to charge the victim of an organized street beating with assault, because the Jobbik aligned thugs were only "defending themselves"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on June 19, 2012, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2012, 11:30:37 AMYou don't think it's going to be used to charge the victim of an organized street beating with assault, because the Jobbik aligned thugs were only "defending themselves"?

I'm sure he's not naive, just principled. Wouldn't be the first time that well intentioned laws have bad consequences.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 16, 2012, 11:31:26 PM
So, according to ORF, the Simon Wiesenthal Center informed the Hungarian authorities last year that a wanted war criminal (tried and found guilty in Czechoslovakia in 1948) called Csatary lives in Budapest. The Hungarian system drags its feet, so the SWC gets The Sun involved who film and photograph the guy and make a story about him. The Hungarian system keeps stalling, pointing out they're investigating against "unknown" and can't confirm or deny the identity of the guy in the article. Also, the supposed crimes (deportation of 16000 jews in Kosice) happened soooo long ago in a place that's not part of Hungary today.

Csatary is 97 and lives in Budapest under his real name.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/9404010/Pressure-on-Hungary-to-prosecute-Nazi-war-criminal-Laszlo-Csatary.html

QuoteThe French foreign ministry has joined Nazi hunters and Jewish community groups to call on prosecutors in Hungary to arrest Laszlo Csatary, 97, for his role in organising the deportation of 15,700 Jews to their deaths in Auschwitz.

"We believe that Nazi criminals, wherever they are, must answer for their acts before justice," said a spokesman for the French foreign ministry.

Csatary, who tops the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's most-wanted list of the Nazi war criminals, was last weekend discovered living peacefully in Budapest under his own name.

He had left Canada when he was unmasked by war crimes investigators in 1995.

Csatary fled Europe at the end of the war after being sentenced to death "in absentia" in 1948 by a Czechoslovakian court for crimes committed while he was police chief from 1941 in the Slovakian city of Kosice, then part of Hungary.

While in the town, known as Kassa in Hungarian and Kaschau in German, he was renowned for his brutality, beating women with a whip he carried on his belt and forcing them to dig holes with their bare hands.

During the war, he organised deportations of thousands of Jews to death camps in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe and is accused of complicity in the killing of at least 16,000 people.

Csatary has officially been under investigation by the Hungarian authorities since 11 September 2011 and is locally reported as having been under police surveillance since April.

Sources told The Daily Telegraph that the investigation is taking a long time because the crimes "took place 68 years ago in an area that now falls under the jurisdiction of another country".

But Nazi hunters have expressed frustration at delays.

"This man is healthy and he drives his own car," said Efraim Zuroff, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem.

"Nothing has happened and I am very frustrated. At Csatary's age health can deteriorate from one day to another. We must act quickly. The passage of time does not diminish his guilt and old age should not provide protection for the perpetrators of the Holocaust."

Jewish students protested last night on "Gyori ut", the smart Budapest street where Csatary lives, demanding his immediate arrest.

"We are proud to do our part in bringing the world's attention to this evil man and his horrific crimes," said Andi Gergely, the president of the European Union of Jewish Students.

A Hungarian spokesman yesterday said: "The government has always supported the exhaustive exploration of past crimes and the prosecution of perpetrators."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 17, 2012, 01:58:31 AM
regarding the self-protect law: the plan was to allow excess force to defend yourself when alone against multiple attackers, not the other way around :P

Anyways, the government, once again, retreated from the prospect of having non-sheep citizens and did not change the law. So still you have no legal way to defend yourself, unless you happen to be a better hand-to-hand fighter than your attacker(s) AND you manage to beat them in a measured way, in accordance with their intended level of attack. If not, you are in trouble.

For Csatary, I am not sure on the level of official stalling, but I can imagine they do that. He instantly became a martyr of the far-right of course. "poor 97 years old man, let him die in peace!" well, he didnt let those jews alone, did he? As someone pointed out in a blog comment somewhere: funny how the radicals hurry to point out personal rights, and call for peaceful forgettance of sins, whenever it suits them.

However, I am not sure I like to have a big international deal made out of the whole stalling business. I mean, just recently, the Irish high court denied the extradiction of an Irish scumbag who killed two Hungarian children with his car while in the country, and fled back home from the sentence. If EU law is fine with that, they should be fine with whatever shady stalling the Hungarians do as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 03:07:34 AM
Orban said on a meeting with the leaders of the commerce and industry association, that he wants a new business model for utility services, switching them to a "non-profit" model.

He said no details of course. Just their usual way of dropping a bomb and then refusing to detail it. Probably because they have no detailed idea about it, just want to see how people react.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 18, 2012, 03:32:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 17, 2012, 01:58:31 AMHowever, I am not sure I like to have a big international deal made out of the whole stalling business. I mean, just recently, the Irish high court denied the extradiction of an Irish scumbag who killed two Hungarian children with his car while in the country, and fled back home from the sentence. If EU law is fine with that, they should be fine with whatever shady stalling the Hungarians do as well.

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 03:40:40 AM
well two more things about that

1) I am still pissed that we can jail the Irish motherfucker who thought they can speed around the roads here with impunity, and was proven right by his country and the EU.

2) I have red after this Csatary guy and boy was he a cruel bastard. I only followed this case vaguely, based on mainstream news reporting. They fail to emphasize the cruel bastard part.
Fucking scum, worthy of harrassment even at 97.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 18, 2012, 06:08:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 03:40:40 AM
1) I am still pissed that we can jail the Irish motherfucker who thought they can speed around the roads here with impunity, and was proven right by his country and the EU.

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

Also, do you know that he has not been prosecuted in Ireland?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 18, 2012, 08:55:34 AM
The Irish guy killed two girls by driving dangerously. He went back to Ireland and was prosecuted and sentenced in absentia. The Hungarians applied for an EAW to make him swerve his sentence. Under Irish law he needed to have 'fled' and the court decided he hadn't (he'd cooperated throughout etc). This causes a scandal in Ireland and it was argued they'd misinterpreted EU law when implementing the EAW system. So the Dail changed the law and the Hungarians re-applied.

The High Court said he could be deported, the Supreme Court said he couldn't having successfully defended himself the old time. The state couldn't just change the law until they get the right answer.

Sad case, but based on what I've read the Supreme Court seems right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 09:08:00 AM
they weren't "right". He didn't defend himself successfully where it matters, ie. in Hungary. The decision made in Ireland was a mere administrative technicality compared to that.
They just wanted to save an Irishman from Hungarian prison.

[Martinus]I hope he hits and kills a couple of irish children as well[/Martinus]
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 18, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
He defended himself from extradition under Irish law. For me the decision seems right from a rule of law perspective, even if it's unsatisfactory in this case. I think you're a bit paranoid on the motives. My understanding is that the Irish state supported the Hungarian case both times, they changed the law and the High Court agreed with them. I don't think there's much more they could do short of ignoring their highest court.

Extradition isn't just an administrative technicality either.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 09:21:02 AM
meh
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2012, 09:44:57 AM
You just got student-lawyered.

Next time, don't hold a trial in absentia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2012, 12:12:21 PM
Despite all the  ho-hum about civil rights, you can't really hear loud opposition from inside the country, unless something is directly, clearly affecting people's pockets.

So we have the situation where the only real opposition against the regime is where they are doing the only positive thing about their reign: half-assed attempts at cutting the unbearable running costs of the state.
Funnily enough, these also happen to be the only things where they are willing to let go and do back their shit. Unless it is needed to channel money to the sponsors of the party, of course.

One of these things is education. Their attempts to cut back the number of state-sponsored places in higher education to a maintainable level have been met with much upheaval. It didn't help that their main education man (well, woman) is a lunatic.
Will they reverse course? Not sure. Orban met with youth organizations, and said that the government could properly explain the aim of the reform (true), and that... get this... he is seeing COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY tendencies in the opposition of the education reform.

Enough communist shit for a week? Ha! Let me give you: the watermelon cartell

Cartells are illegal of course. Except when the government does it.

We grow a shitload of watermelons. About half of it is exported. But we also get a lot of even cheaper imports.
The market was pricing the consumer price of a kilogram of watermleon to about 69 forints.

Then out of the blue steps in the agriculture ministry, announcing that they have
a) stopped the evöl import of watermelons by asking the distributors to not import
b) agreed to have a set minimal price of 99 forints per kilogram for watermelons. When sold to the customer, not when bought from the farmers

this is of course SAVING  TEH FARMERS. They didn't bother explaining, how a 99 forints final price is stopping the middlemen from buying the watermelon from the farmers at the 30-40 forints they usually do, or how it is stopping shops to import 29 forint-worth watermelons from Serbia and Romania.

Not only they are doing price-fixing imbecile communist shit, they are doing it wrong.

It appears that next to be saved is milk production.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2012, 03:52:14 PM
lol remember that Jobbik Euro-MP who turned out to be jewish on the mother side? (ie. proper jew :P )
A leading Jobbik MP (who managed to make his wife also an MP, and runs the party newspaper called Barricade) now called for his resignation since "it is clear he lied when he said he wasn't aware of his jewish ancestry until late last year".

This is a brilliant incident for Jobbik. I love it.
They had the option to NOT quick him out,and alienate the nazis, ie. 90% of their voters. Or kick him out, like they seem to be doing now, and unveil just how viciously racist they are ("oh, so you have been a major member of our organization, won us an EU seat and ran shit for us, but it turns out your mother was a jew? Get out!")

Of course, like with any group which suddenly finds itself having control over wealth and resources, there have been reports of power struggles (the fall of the jewish one was apparently part of the strugle to control their organization in eastern hungary), so this call for resignation by Elod Novak may be part of his bid for party presidency.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 24, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
Who will parking-lot this horrible place?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2012, 04:11:17 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 24, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
Who will parking-lot this horrible place?

There is just a select group of people who needs to be parking-lotted. The rest are salvagable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 24, 2012, 04:19:01 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2012, 09:44:57 AM
You just got student-lawyered.

Next time, don't hold a trial in absentia.

Based on my reading that wasn't the problem, it was that he didn't "flee."

Though it does seem that if the Hungarians had hired a smarter Mick lawyer he would have pointed out that he fled like a motherfucker from the scene of the crime.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 25, 2012, 06:26:46 AM
 :lmfao:

what time travel. I saw such stuff in the news archives from the 50s and 60s: the minister of agriculture and other dignities visit the cow who yielded the most milk last year:

http://akadalymentes.kormany.hu/hu/videkfejlesztesi-miniszterium/hirek/a-kormany-mar-oktoberben-megkezdi-a-kulonleges-tejtamogatasok-kifizeteset
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 26, 2012, 02:14:32 PM
Orban was talking to a bunch of businessmen.

One of his main sponsors lashed out against his performance, actually, which was somewhat surprising, but I did read speculations that he was losing in the battle of influence between the big guys.

Anyways, Orban said a few things, which I am still researching, because I cannot believe how the opposition press isn't making a huge-ass deal about if true. It's a weird mix of honest and 50s propaganda.

Like, how we must fight to keep up the pace with the other east euros, because if not we will "sink with the declining West".

But the prime part was his surprising philosophical tantrum about Hungary and it's people, as part of his take on cooperation:
Cooperation is key, but "co-operation is not a matter of willingness, it is a matter of strength. There may be countries where this works otherwise, like in Scandinavia, but a half-asian people like us can only work together if there is strength This doesn't rule out discussion and democracy, but a centralized cooperation is necessary".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on July 26, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
Learn to ride and shoot the bow Tamas, that way there will be a place for you in the new Hungary  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 26, 2012, 02:41:24 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 26, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
Learn to ride and shoot the bow Tamas, that way there will be a place for you in the new Hungary  :cool:

I think so too  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 27, 2012, 01:57:00 AM
and that comment (which, if you think about it, implied in no indirect manner that Hungarians are inferior to some other european nations and thus incapable of proper democracy, told by the PM) seems to be ignored by the press, AND opposition parties.
So far at least.

This is actually kind of worrying because it supplement the thought growing in my head, that the media and the opposition IS afraid of Orban, for real. They are going through the motions hoping for a miracle in 2014, but they are not willing to take the gloves down and fight for real.

I mean, when the "iconic" arch-evil Socialist PM, Gyurcsany, made a comment half as stupid as this one, it was made to be a meme by FIDESZ immediately.

eg. about 5 years ago a couple of billionaires (FIDESZ sponsors) whined about taxes, and threatened that they will move to their business to Slovakia because of the tax burden here. Gyurcsany said "do you want to go? fine! you  can go. You can leave!". In a matter of day, "you can leave!" had been made into a comment directed at the People of Hungary by FIDESZ, and it is regularly quoted to indicate what an enemy of it's own people Gyurcsany is.

And you see this comment by Orban, which is a rare glimpse into  what demeaning opinion he has of his own supporters (I share his opinion, but that's not the point), and there is... silence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 27, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
I was going to say it sounded a bit like you about Hungary :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 28, 2012, 02:01:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
I was going to say it sounded a bit like you about Hungary :lol:


:lol:

yeah, no doubt I would end up as a Hungarian Pinochet if given a 2/3rd majority here. However, Orban's only relentless ambition is to stay in power. He has no identifiable vision for how the country should look like, except that it is made out of his 10 million peasants, and that if the rhetorics of Horthy and Kadar worked for 60 years, they will serve him good enough as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 28, 2012, 02:03:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 28, 2012, 02:01:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
I was going to say it sounded a bit like you about Hungary :lol:


:lol:

yeah, no doubt I would end up as a Hungarian Pinochet if given a 2/3rd majority here. However, Orban's only relentless ambition is to stay in power. He has no identifiable vision for how the country should look like, except that it is made out of his 10 million peasants, and that if the rhetorics of Horthy and Kadar worked for 60 years, they will serve him good enough as well.

Sounds like Tusk's government, only that Tusk is smarter, so he knows he will not win if he fucks with the financial markets.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 28, 2012, 02:16:00 AM
you liked Tusk before  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 29, 2012, 02:38:29 AM
I don't much anymore. Unlike more parochial PiS, he is fortunately more pro-European but his government is quite illiberal. It has the highest record in history of the secret services asking for phone records of private individuals (apparently several thousand a day), notoriously blocks public access to government info and has just passed law curtailing freedom of assembly. It is not very ideological but there is this slight Putinesque whiff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 29, 2012, 02:40:10 AM
Btw, as I can't due to being on my iPad - could someone repost this week's The Economist's article on Hungary? I did not realize this is as bad there when it comes to antisemitism. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2012, 03:11:49 AM
It has an article? Will check it out.

And define "bad". It is Eastern Europe. Both the Eastern and the Europe part comes with a certain level of mandatory jew-hating.

Also, :nelson: at Poland also failing in building a modern country. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 29, 2012, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2012, 03:11:49 AM
It has an article? Will check it out.

And define "bad". It is Eastern Europe. Both the Eastern and the Europe part comes with a certain level of mandatory jew-hating.

Also, :nelson: at Poland also failing in building a modern country. :P

Well, stuff like websites publishing home addresses of Jewish students who protested against the nazi criminal, so they can be harassed; a MP on the floor of the parliament making speech with the blood libel references; someone leaving pig's offal on the statue of the Swedish guy who helped a lot of Jewish people escape during WW2; a Jobbik politician being kicked out of the party when it was found he had Jewish ancestry; and swastikas being painted on synagogues.

Trust me when I say that while anti-semitism may be happening in Poland and the rest of the region, this shit is bad and not on par with what's happening in Poland at least.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2012, 04:10:58 AM
ah right, I covered the Jobbik guy's story here. It is net positive because it clearly unveils the extent of  Jobbik's rampant racism.

And yes, "kurucinfo", the nazi website regularly posts addresses and phone numbers of people who are Enemies of The People. The website itself, however, fled to a US-based server years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on August 10, 2012, 10:03:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cey35bBWXls
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 10, 2012, 10:35:20 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 10, 2012, 10:03:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cey35bBWXls

You might be a dumb redneck bimbo if . . .


Liked his mysogynist comments, though. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2012, 02:50:50 AM
There have been some moves against the well-known organized crime figures recently. Some of them at least. All of them rose to power in the early 90s, when our present Minister of Interior, ex-police officer, also had some shady business connections.

It was alleged that testimonies of these figures led to the arrest of several high-ranked police officers. Others said it is one branch of organized crime, the one in bed with the present minister, moving to eliminate the other.

I am not sure what to make of that. But I gotta' tell you, the sudden and swift DISBANDING of the ENTIRE organized crime division looks suspicious.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2012, 03:03:36 AM
I'm unclear about your post. Are you talking about moves being taken against mafia or mafia-fighting police units?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2012, 03:04:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 13, 2012, 03:03:36 AM
I'm unclear about your post. Are you talking about moves being taken against mafia or mafia-fighting police units?

both
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2012, 09:27:39 AM
Today's second topic is...

watermelons!


Hungarians like watermelons. We also like fried chicken, yes.

Politicans like to take up the watermelon subject during summer. This year, agriculture's state secretary, former dude in charge of uncovering socialist illegal stuff (failed), basically strong armed food chains to seel watermelon on 90 forints per kg.  Up from around 60.
This was to "save the farmers". Of course, he didn't bother explaining how the final sale price help the farmers, whose watermelons are bought up by distributors who then sell to foodchains who then sell it to the public.

Since the announcement, the commerce-whatever office declared this to be unlawful carteling. Not that it changed anything yet.

I am mentioning this because this state secretary prick just told on a public forum, and I do quote:
"so, the socialists and the commerce-whatever office is telling that I formed a cartel. So? What can they do with me? What can they do with the ministry? What can they do with the government?"


And that's the way the cookie crumbles around here, folks!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2012, 09:38:11 AM
Pity - the Hungarian anti-cartel office has had a rather good reputation in the region as both competent and corruption-free. Shame that Orban's government is bent on destroying that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 15, 2012, 01:42:08 AM
Is it just me, or having 5.8% inflation while the GDP shrinks 1.2% is indeed an achievment?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 15, 2012, 02:31:39 AM
You are being sarcastic, right?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 15, 2012, 02:33:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 15, 2012, 02:31:39 AM
You are being sarcastic, right?

Yes. I don't get how we can get skyrocketing prices when the economy shrinks, and some sectors (like construction) basically stops functioning
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2012, 06:21:04 AM
Orban spoke to a gathering of ambassadors. He declared that Hungary has been more successful in countering the crisis than western europe (I guess record negative GDP "growth" and record high inflation counts as two achievements), but we shouldn't get carried away with pride as not all the results are showing.

Also this successful new way of doing this had to have its criticism. His example: "when we say we tax the banks, there ought to be upheveal. But we must say 'yes we will tax them' and not just temporarily, but for the next 20 years".
Well, he HIMSELF said "temporary" just a few months ago. This guy is the master of doublespeak.

Also, his term of "opening toward the east" (which in practice means worshipping China and other SE Asian worker hellholes for their "efficiency") is "deliberately misunderstood". This is something, he says, that the West has been doing already. His prime example was the Dutch, who opened so much that even conquered territories there centuries ago.


:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2012, 06:34:16 AM
The English-speaking branch of Iranian state TV uncovers the truth in Hungary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO8CoEWUGuw&feature=player_embedded#!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2012, 06:45:57 AM
I like how they show the Austrian banks (well, that part of Unicredit was Bank Austria) in the teaser. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2012, 06:46:10 AM
Also, post that video in the Paradox thread. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2012, 06:47:51 AM
Not to mention the top comment on YouTube:

QuoteZionists further attempting to corrupt and control the world. BURN THEIR HOMES TO THE GROUND AND CHASE THEM INTO THE SEA! Leave their kind no place to harbor their violence and tyranny. Allow the people to reclaim their wealth and the world to move forward in peace.
skb0rzn 1 day ago 16 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 23, 2012, 07:01:52 AM
even a study from their ministry of justice found the government's plan on voter registration as problematic.

Current plans is that there would be a deadline several months before the general elections by which time everyone who wanted to participate would have to appear in their municipality council office in person (or by delegate) and register for participation.

Funnily enough, they will grant voting right for Hungarian citizens outside of the border, and they will not have to register, and they will be able to vote electronically, or in the mail, while Hungarian residents will not be able to do either (and have to register).

Together with the planned stopping of state funding for political parties, the abolishment of the second round of elections, the new system which gives a huge number of extra seats for the winner of the election, and the new division of voting districts which have been drawn so that the elections which FIDESZ lost would had resulted in FIDESZ victory if these new borders would had been in effect, I am considering boycotting the election in 2014, because it will be very heavily rigged toward FIDESZ victory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2012, 12:17:04 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fma%2Fmandiner%2Fimage%2F1208%2Fovv.jpg&hash=5403012ab362573886d8b366fbabebb577ac271f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2012, 12:45:21 PM
What is hilarious, in a sad way, when a blogger/journalist writes about the evident spread of antisemitism, and the slow but steady escalation of racism, like this right-sided journalist who wrote about how he is starting to get afraid, he gets Internet comments like
"you moron, are you insane? what are you talking about? in danger? you will get what's coming for you, you'll see"
"what's your problem? missed the train?"
etc.

exactly like the "behead those who say islam is violent" crowd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
5.8% is record inflation?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2012, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
5.8% is record inflation?

in the eu it allegedly is right now
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
couple of weeks ago three Hungarians were kidnapped in Syria, by rebels.

A day or two ago they got released. It's a bit suspicious to be honest.

All 3 are ex-cops. Rumor says they worked for the government and the rebels released them out of a goodwill gesture.

On the press conference with them, hosted by TEK (Anti-terror unit, recently formed, basically the personal army of Orban IIRC the command structure), a TEK officer (in black beret and everything) was caught on microphone leaning to one of the ex-hostages (who claimed to had been tourists in Syria) saying "tell them less, they'll have less chance to pick on it"

:yeahright:

By all chance it is unrelated, but the government-sponsored press has been somewhat busy highlighting in recent weeks, how Assad is a regional hero, in fierce combat against multiculturalism and Islam extremists (yes, both at the same time).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fma%2Fmagyarinfo%2F%2Fsz%25C3%25ADria.jpg&hash=413408f1915e88ddbc4ea9892dd22baeb3ac5021)

To the right are the ex-hostages.

At the center, masquerading as Steven Segal, is the leader of TEK.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on August 28, 2012, 03:26:11 PM
At least your anti terror unit has a cool name.

TEK.

Awesome.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2012, 03:29:41 PM
Commanded by William Shatner.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 28, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 28, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
By all chance it is unrelated, but the government-sponsored press has been somewhat busy highlighting in recent weeks, how Assad is a regional hero, in fierce combat against multiculturalism and Islam extremists (yes, both at the same time).

So they want a moderate form of xenophobia.  Islamism goes too far.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on August 28, 2012, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2012, 03:29:41 PM
Commanded by William Shatner.
I was gonna say...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: clandestino on September 10, 2012, 08:28:18 PM
So Tamas, I was reading something in the Spanish newspaper El País about the arrest of Bela Biszku on the grounds of actions against the Hungarian revolt* of 1956.

Now, while I was reading this I became somewhat confused on what to think about it: being in favour of Pinochet's arrest in the past, I guess I have to be in favour of this as well, but at the same time, I wonder if this is some attempt by FIDESZ to divert attention from something else.

I'm somewhat confused and maybe this is just an well oiled judicial system working... but why now? Could you share your view on this situation? :)

* this was the first word that came to mind. Not trying to score any political points here...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:00:49 AM
it was a revolution :P


And while I have no doubt the timing of this is to divert attention from the disaster which the rest of this year will be (new budget will be needed, some pretty interesting and dangerous laws will be accepted, etc.), I am glad they are doing this and I hope they will jail the old bastard.

He has been living on a very generous pension, largely forgotten, until a couple of young journalists pretended to be enthusiastic communists and wanted to do an "honoring" interview the old guy. He regrets NOTHING of what he did.

He was the leader behind the executions, the mass arrests, the whole retribution. He is not one inch better than the nazis. He was a major collaborator with foreign occupation forces, and the fact he still breaths is offense enough, let alone the fact that he is a well-off free man on a state pension.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
Yesterday there was a debate in Parlaiment about a new law concerning domestic violence (since that term doesnt really exist in criminal law yet here).

The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

MEOWTF?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 11, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

That sounds like an Ed Anger troll.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on September 11, 2012, 08:58:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

That sounds like an Ed Anger troll.

Agreed which makes that very sad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: clandestino on September 11, 2012, 07:14:15 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:00:49 AM
it was a revolution :P

:) First, thanks for your input. From what I gathered your opinion must be what most hungarians think, apart from some die-hard commies (I guess there are still some). Good decision then.

About the revolt/ revolution, it might be something about language or culture. I guess we couldn't call anything that failed a revolution (that is reserved to the situations that somewhat succeed).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on September 12, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

That sounds like an Ed Anger troll.

HEY NOW
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 09, 2012, 02:05:47 AM
I might do a longer post on how the deterioration of the country continues unhindered, but for now I just want to show you these very recent, government-payed ad in major newspapers:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F340%2F3405%2F34054%2F3405484_a18e8ca93832b4ebd38d018479e27a6f_wm.jpg&hash=d00e81bbd549c8d55d04e5f262f503397212ccd7)


first on the left: "what we expect from the IMF? RESPECT, TRUST! We will not sacrifice Hungary's independence"
second: "DECREASED SUPPORT FOR FAMILIES We will not yield to the IMF!"
third: "PROPERTY TAX We will not yield to the IMF!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: clandestino on October 09, 2012, 05:04:32 AM
I don't understand it, so the governmment asks for the "help" of the IMF and then proceeds to sabotage its work in the newspapers?

That's so odd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 09, 2012, 06:34:37 AM
They could use the low interest loans from the IMF very much (we sell bonds around 6-7% now and we sold them even worse at the start of this year. With -1% GDP "growth" projected, that's quite a steep price).
However, IMF wants a look in your books and tell you what to spend on. That's NOT how these guys roll. Their rule has been characterized not just by a de facto constitutional coup de etat but also rampant corruption and shameless lawmaking to directly benefit the sponsors of the party.
Obviously you can't do that when somebody is watching the books over your shoulder.

As a result they have been conducting heavy anti-IMF propaganda ever since they realized they can't get the loan to spend it as they see fit. However, they are totally incompetent in not running the country's economy to the ground, so they need more money. Therefore, I see two possible scenarios:

-paradoxically, they are REALLY close to signing a deal with the IMF, but they think that even they cannot go from "IMF is teh devil" to "we signed a deal, it's fine, really" and not lose face. So, they have been pretending to have received outrageous demands from the IMF to DESTROY TEH PEOPLE, and they are posing to be locked in this life-death struggle against the IMF, who REALLY REALLY wants to loan us money, but we don't need it. So after this campaign of pretending the outrageous demands, they can sign the real deal which of course will be much milder (anything but a terror bombing campaign would be milder than what they lie to come from the IMF), aaand as a result they can claim victory (having forced mighty IMF to agree to the milder -ie. real- terms)

-they don't want an IMF deal, but they have had to keep the image of negotiations up, and it is slowly time to let that go. Why? Because the country's Central Bank has a huge foreign currency reserve, acquired during the 2008 crisis to shield the national currency from possible speculative attacks. The current C. Bank prez have been keeping their grabby hands away, but his mandate ends next March and they can have their guy take charge and give the reserve to the budget, giving them enough money to start spending and win the election in '14. That would also destroy the last reserves of our banks and economy and would surely destroy the country in mid-term, but that's hardly their worry now is it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 09, 2012, 07:52:59 AM
Quote from: clandestino on October 09, 2012, 05:04:32 AM
I don't understand it, so the governmment asks for the "help" of the IMF and then proceeds to sabotage its work in the newspapers?

That's so odd.

Well the Argentine Government borrows massive amounts of money from people and then calls them vultures and thieves when they want to be paid back.  It is a game lots of governments play.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2012, 02:57:47 AM
Jobbik marched through Miskolc, probably the shittiest city in Hungary, due to it being full of dirt-poor gypos (and whites).

Gypsies and opposition activists did a small counter march. Photo gallery on the link:
Quotehttp://hvg.hu/nagyitas/20121017_Jobbikosok_ciganyok_es_rendorok_az_Avason
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 18, 2012, 04:00:28 AM
So is there anything to suggest that the situation in Hungary may be looking up or is it still on the downward spiral?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2012, 04:21:48 AM
heh, downward than ever.

They keep plugging the wholes on the budget by more and more taxes, instead of cutting spending.

Their ONLY, ONLY concern is winning the 2014 elections.

The latest effort on that, pre-registration... ridicoulous. One of the main arguments against it is of course that the state already has a complete list of citizens, their birth date, and their addresses, so there is no need WHATSOEVER to register.

Their latest reaction? "okay, then we disband the state registry. There you go"

Of course, the buearucratic labyrinth which made that registry necessary will remain. And all that data will also remain at various branches of the administration. It will be just slower and more cumbersome for one office to get the data.

And there are other examples like that. Like how the whole registration idea is unconstitutional, so they change the constitution. They change it every couple of months basically, and they propagated it as a long term foundation for our society.

In summary, they haphazardly tweak long term and crucial things, ENTIRELY based on their interest DURING THAT SINGLE DAY.

There are literally thousands of small companies declaring bankrupcy each quarter, breaking records every time. Recession for 2013 is just about assured.

And yet, YET, the only time they trigger loud opposition is when they try a vague affair at touching the welfare spending.

The country is trapped between an untalented maffia mob leadership and a socialist mob populace. :(

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 18, 2012, 10:12:39 AM
Welcome to democracy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2012, 01:02:33 PM
So has the flag-flying of Gordon Bajnai reached the Western press?

He was the "try and prevent a crash so we still get into Parlaiment in 2010 okthxbye" guy of the Socialists in 2009. Served as PM for a year, was in charge to enact some of the stuff the IMF requested for the bankrupcy-avoidance loan they gave us (funny fact: most of those reserves were spent by "we are freedom fighters and shall not yield to the IMF" Orban).
He was never a Socialist party member as far as I know but had functions in the government before his. A well-established businessman (and, well, you cannot be a well established businessman and not have some solid political connections in this country) and crisis-manager of companies, he was successful in indeed saving us from bankrupcy, with rather mild cuts. Altough to be fair, the structural problems he did not touch, those remained for Orban to keep ignoring them. But then again, he clearly stated that he was taking over for a single year to keep the country afloat, and that's what he did.

Politically, he appears to be a middle-left kind of guy, altough as with I guess most of Europe, economically liberal-minded public persons must masquerade as mild socialists to survive.

After his one year term, he moved away from politics. Needless to say, as fuckups upon fuckups piled up for the FIDESZ government, and their ridicoulous incompetence has become evident to everyone but the hardcore fanbase, the short reign of Bajnai started to look much better, and even some amount of idealization by the opposition was taking place.

He is the exact opposite of Orban: he is not a big speaker. In fact, yesterday was his first ever appearance in front of a big crowd. Silent, calm, moderate.

And that is the exact recipe how Medgyessy defeated Orban in 2002. Then he proceeded to actually keep his election promises and totally ruined the country, but that is beside the point. :P

Yesterday Bajnai appeared on the demonstration of a civil initative, Milla, and announced the creation of the Alliance for 2014. They await everybody, parties and individuals, who agree on a few bulletpoints (uhm, freedom, solidarity, progress and Europe IIRC). He made extra-sure to open for the moderates on the right (I am not sure they exist, they are more like moderate lefties with a slight nationalistic overtone), and also mentioning the "orphaned liberals"

All in all, I think he very well outlined the way to defeat FIDESZ: since FIDESZ revamped the election rules in every possible way short of cancelling them altogether to favour themselves, several opposition parties going against them is hopeless and pointless. The opposition must have a united front to even have the off chance of winning.
So I do support this.

However, first day reactions already showcase the problem: the Socialists, and the tincy-wincy party of former Socialist PM now anti-christ Gyurcsany, declared to be happy to join the alliance, while newcomer naive-leftie-hipster-clueless party LMP showed some sharp reluctance. And of course with THAT setup (old socialist fuckups only) the alliance is doomed. If this situation persists, they will have to change their opinion and form a party of their own.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 26, 2012, 03:02:56 AM
news snippets:


-an association of history teachers publshed a study about the new plans for history education, citing how topics like late 19th century issues caused by the high cencus for voting (only 6% of the population voted), massive poverty among landless peasants in the same era, are missing, also how the Horthy era is portrayed only by it's positive side.

-Since the 2008 highs, about  250 000 taxpayers have disappeared from the system, according to the latest statistics. I think a lot of these simply moved abroad.

-on the topic of just how big fuckups can work in politics, that Jobbik MP who was a lound anti-semite and preacher of global cionist conspiracies who discovered his Jewish ancestry, left Jobbik a couple of months ago (more like was thrown out), and now a loud supporter of Israel and Israel's example of peace  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 26, 2012, 03:31:31 AM
Never heard of Bajnai. Sounds like an IMF stooge bent on destroying Hungary IMHO.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 26, 2012, 11:54:34 AM
Oh, and this week's nationalization: weather reports.

Apparently it is not fair that the state-own meteorology service has to compete with private ones and that it has to sell services to gain income. So nobody will be allowed to sell their weather reports for money, and the state-owned business will receive more tax grants.

Yay!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU PEOPLE!

A bill proposed by a government MP wants to offer Hungarian citizenship in exchange of the purchase of 250 000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 30, 2012, 07:54:12 AM
Well, that's certainly an attractive way for some people to acquire EU citizenship.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martim Silva on October 30, 2012, 08:13:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2012, 06:34:37 AM
They could use the low interest loans from the IMF very much (we sell bonds around 6-7% now and we sold them even worse at the start of this year. With -1% GDP "growth" projected, that's quite a steep price).
However, IMF wants a look in your books and tell you what to spend on. That's NOT how these guys roll. Their rule has been characterized not just by a de facto constitutional coup de etat but also rampant corruption and shameless lawmaking to directly benefit the sponsors of the party.

Why are you frothing?

We're considered a wonderful democracy by the world, we enjoy a -3% GDP "growth", depend on foreign generosity to have any kind of cash, and still we are refusing the IMF/EC/ECB advice on where to spend stuff.

Our democratic politicians don't want anything to damage their own self-interest, so instead of accepting the IMF's suggestion to cut state expenditure, they've announed a 125% hike on the taxes on the poorest, and put the tax rate on those who make more than $95k/year to 65% (applicable on income earned through the salary, of course. Never on gains made on stock market speculation, bonuses or business 'deals' made by highborns).

The new measures - which also cut by 6% the unemployment benefits earned by the poorer workers who just lost their jobs - will put 30% of the population below poverty line, and 20% won't be able to afford housing (and perhaps not even food).

Do you really want to emulate us?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on October 30, 2012, 11:43:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU PEOPLE!

A bill proposed by a government MP wants to offer Hungarian citizenship in exchange of the purchase of 250 000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds!

Damn, that is cheap. Throw in two non tattooed Hungarian hotties and I will invest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
non tattooed ones? That's tough.


Anyways, this system here breeds the servile assholes of course. Like, this regional newspaper had an article and a picture about some kind of kids charity shit. They felt obliged to erase the Socialist mayor who sponsored it though. To their bad luck, the Internet has been invented.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F347%2F3474%2F34749%2F3474938_feba062e4951d6142401dc772def76f8_wm.jpg&hash=bceeed00824c3666ee88943b365f5265ac702c2a)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on October 30, 2012, 12:00:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU PEOPLE!

A bill proposed by a government MP wants to offer Hungarian citizenship in exchange of the purchase of 250 000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds!

That's not a terrible proposition, since Hungary is in the EU and you can then live and work anywhere you'd like within the EU.  And while Hungarian bonds are hardly the best investment out there they're probably not going to become completely worthless - even Argentina paid its bondholders some amount of money.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on October 30, 2012, 12:00:16 PM
I'll take 4 girls from that pic then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 30, 2012, 07:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
non tattooed ones? That's tough.


Anyways, this system here breeds the servile assholes of course. Like, this regional newspaper had an article and a picture about some kind of kids charity shit. They felt obliged to erase the Socialist mayor who sponsored it though. To their bad luck, the Internet has been invented.
We had the opposite here.  A Tory candidate campaigned to allow a family of asylum seekers to stay - they'd lived in Weymouth for about 10 years and had real fears of being forced to go back to Malawi, they had a lot of local support (story here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/26/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices ).  When it came to the election, however, he changed the picture for his electoral leaflets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FPolitics%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2005%2F04%2F12%2Fedmatts372.jpg&hash=cd5f2ffd693a7f2e5a660b655077e616604f291d)
:bleeding: <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Count on October 30, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
I saw this thread for the first time today and I have to say it's one of the most interesting and informative on Languish.  :bowler:

You may now return to regularly scheduled anti-Roma racism.  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2012, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 30, 2012, 07:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
non tattooed ones? That's tough.


Anyways, this system here breeds the servile assholes of course. Like, this regional newspaper had an article and a picture about some kind of kids charity shit. They felt obliged to erase the Socialist mayor who sponsored it though. To their bad luck, the Internet has been invented.
We had the opposite here.  A Tory candidate campaigned to allow a family of asylum seekers to stay - they'd lived in Weymouth for about 10 years and had real fears of being forced to go back to Malawi, they had a lot of local support (story here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/26/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices ).  When it came to the election, however, he changed the picture for his electoral leaflets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FPolitics%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2005%2F04%2F12%2Fedmatts372.jpg&hash=cd5f2ffd693a7f2e5a660b655077e616604f291d)
:bleeding: <_<

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2012, 03:51:41 AM
Quote from: Count on October 30, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
I saw this thread for the first time today and I have to say it's one of the most interesting and informative on Languish.  :bowler:

You may now return to regularly scheduled anti-Roma racism.  ;)

thanks! :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2012, 04:05:27 AM
ELECTION LAW TIME!!


On Monday, Parlaiment debated the new election law, and they accepted the constitution changes allowing that new law.

That was needed because of the voter registration thingie. One of their many ways of reducing democracy. Before Americans and such wonder why registration is a big deal, it is a big deal because unlike your free countries, here the state runs a quite comprehensive list of all of it's citizens. My name, address, date of birth, criminal record (and I think marital status, perhaps even place of work) are all nicely stored in a central database accessible for public administration. That is why we had no voter registration before. There is no need for it. Voting right is universal and the state knows full well which citizens live in a given district anyways.

But they wanted to decrease the number of "impulse voters" so now you have to register in person or on the Internet (access to the relevant government page is granted after you personally visit the relevant office), and registration closes 15 days before the vote.

Funnily enough, you can nominate people even if you are not registered. Why? Because reducing the numbers of impulse voters and increasing the number of candidates both increase the chances of a FIDESZ victory, based on the single-round, winner-takes-it-all new system they are introducing.

Anyways, so there was debate on the law on Monday. Vote was to be made (and was indeed made) on Tuesday.
So they closed the debate Monday evening right. Next morning, one of the FIDESZ MPs (funnily enough, the only MP in modern history for whom there has been a proven election fraud done, in 2002) arrived to work with 65 pages worth of modifications to the law. The opposition had an hour to read it, analyze it, and then vote on it. Collective opposition tantrum gave them a few more hours to do the same.

Then it was accepted by the government majority of course.

What they did, among other things, was further tweak the borders of some of the election districts (I assume based on latest polls), ease on the registration-related restrictions (coming up with the rules I outlined above), and declare that associations are not eligible to run on the elections. Since this is a world of totally unrelated coincidences, Bajnai, whom  mentioned before, announced his association to organize the opposition last week. Now they will need to find an other form of organization.

So there you go. There will be elections (at least by the looks of it now), but the law has been carefully tweaked, lacking any kind of internal logic or consistence, to make sure FIDESZ have all the advantages, short of just not holding the election at all.

Oh, and also, the party-delegated observers in the district will have less rights than they had. They will not be allowed to participate in the counting of the votes. Also, since now there will be more foreign votes coming to embassies (since all Hungarian citizens can vote, even if they have no residence in Hungary), observers in those embassies will also not be permitted to participate in the count of the votes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 06, 2012, 02:54:57 AM
Orban hails from a small village in my county. He loves football, he kept being a footballer of the village's team until a couple of years ago or so.

Already the biggest and most expensive youth football training institution is in the village, and now they have received 2.8 billion forints of state money to build a stadium with seats three times the number of the village's entire population  :lol:

That 2.8 billion grant is exactly 1 billion more than what handball, water polo, basketball, and hockey got from the state, combined.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 06, 2012, 03:02:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 06, 2012, 02:54:57 AM
Orban hails from a small village in my county. He loves football, he kept being a footballer of the village's team until a couple of years ago or so.

Already the biggest and most expensive youth football training institution is in the village, and now they have received 2.8 billion forints of state money to build a stadium with seats three times the number of the village's entire population  :lol:

That 2.8 billion grant is exactly 1 billion more than what handball, water polo, basketball, and hockey got from the state, combined.

worse than italians. At least il cavaliere had the decency to put his stadium in Milan
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
The scale at which the election law is being custom-made for FIDESZ needs is horrible.

For example, two recent modifications to the bill:
-FIDESZ has one big advantage over everyone else: a core (big) group of supporters who are easy to mobilize to wave the Good Leader's name on signs
Therefore what they are doing? They keep the ban on campaigning on TV during election day and the day before it, but it will be alright to hold rallys.

-The big question about the next election: will the opposition muster enough numbers to defeat FIDESZ despite the field leaning toward them? Well, they are making sure that clues on this will remain classified, as it will be forbidden to publish polling data, half year from election day.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 08, 2012, 03:19:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
it will be forbidden to publish polling data, half year from election day.

Wait, what?  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 08, 2012, 03:32:57 AM
Why are Hungarians so contrarian? All the world is going in the right direction except Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 03:51:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 08, 2012, 03:19:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
it will be forbidden to publish polling data, half year from election day.

Wait, what?  :lol:

It is not yet in the law, but they are planning it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 03:51:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2012, 03:32:57 AM
Why are Hungarians so contrarian? All the world is going in the right direction except Hungary.

WE WILL PISS AGAINST THE WIND JUST TO PROVE THAT WE CAN ALRIGHT?!!!!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 05:35:29 AM
Apparently, there are harsh debates between two factions on how the "ancient" Hungarian runes (most of which, IIRC, were created in recent decades based on archeologic finds in Transylvania) should be entered into the Unicode standard.
One faction wants it as "Old Hungarian", but the other argues that this implies it as a dead form of writing, which is not (on that they have a point, this lunatic bastards have town name signs in runes erected at basically every town, including mine. One of my days will be bad enough to hit it with my car). That second faction wants it to be entered as "Rovash" resembling the pronounciation of the Hungarian word for the signs.

Funniest thing for me is that what they do with their "rovash" writing is to replace letters of the latin ABC with these signs. And they consider that ancient.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 05:41:53 AM
Oh no, so basically, most of this stuff is from the 15th-16th century Transylvania, allegedly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 10, 2012, 06:13:19 AM
Next target: the Red Cross  :lol:

They shall only be allowed to have an account with the state, not with private banks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 10, 2012, 06:52:02 AM
Crisis brings out the beet in people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:52:55 AM
There are more and more articles about such a rise in emigration that could soon only be compared to the trends a century ago.

Allegedly, according to German statistics, about 120 000 Hungarian citizens settled in Germany (officially) during the last 4 years, around 46 000 just this last year.

And London is already the "5th biggest Hungarian city in the world", meaning of course that there are only 4 Hungarian cities with a bigger Magyar population than London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
Also there is a new bill, which would basically create a separate "anti-corruption" police under the command of the Prime Minister's office.
They would have the right to get access to the books and contracts of every company who has ever had any contact with the state or state-owned companies (meaning just about every company in the country). They shall, among other things, make mirror copies of servers and data storages of target company.
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

And the criminal cases they launch would be classified as priority ones, which means a lot of special circumstances applying. Like that they don't have to notify the company they launched the proceedings against.

In other words, if this bill passes, the PM will have EACH AND EVERY company and business grabbed by the balls.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:57:07 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 23, 2012, 02:56:33 AM
Have any non-Gypsies emigrated yet? Gypsies are all over Stockholm, begging and acting like retards.

barely any gypsies left from here :P Those are mostly Romanians
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 23, 2012, 02:57:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
Also there is a new bill, which would basically create a separate "anti-corruption" police under the command of the Prime Minister's office.
They would have the right to get access to the books and contracts of every company who has ever had any contact with the state or state-owned companies (meaning just about every company in the country). They shall, among other things, make mirror copies of servers and data storages of target company.
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

And the criminal cases they launch would be classified as priority ones, which means a lot of special circumstances applying. Like that they don't have to notify the company they launched the proceedings against.

In other words, if this bill passes, the PM will have EACH AND EVERY company and business grabbed by the balls.

Oh my. How the feeble have fallen.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 23, 2012, 05:45:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

Que?  :huh:

I did not find the rest of it too egregious but this is either some oversimplification or a total puzzler. Could you give a bit of a background.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 23, 2012, 07:22:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2012, 05:45:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

Que?  :huh:

I did not find the rest of it too egregious but this is either some oversimplification or a total puzzler. Could you give a bit of a background.  :huh:

Trianon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 26, 2012, 04:50:06 PM
Today the new law regulating elections have been passed, by individual voting (or however else you call it when each MP votes openly by name), on request of the Socialists.

Orban was not present. What a coward.


Also I guess a historic moment in this century: a Jobbik MP asked the government, based on the "current events in Gaza", to provide a list of jews in Parlaiment and in the government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2012, 12:45:49 AM
I was speaking to my Hungarian colleague today.  He bemoaned what was happening to Hungary and mentioned the Jobbik MP who wanted a list of Jews as a sign of how bad things are back home.  Then he started mentioning Ayn Rand and said 'politicians are the worst everywhere'.  I replied that our journalists are at least as bad.

He said he liked British politics.  It was better here.  British politicians weren't anywhere near as bad as they are in Hungary.  His theory as to why this is is that we've got more Jewish politicians :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 30, 2012, 01:38:14 AM
Well, Disraeli was good.  :secret:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 02:37:00 AM
Jobbik didn't let the list thing go.

Their angry nerd-looking prominent MP (husband of their female MP), wrote an e-mail to all the other MPs, demanding them to tell if they have any second citizenships.

According to him, the justice minister was first to reply that he does not.

A female MP from LMP (green hipster party with no identifiable program apart from spending more money than FIDESZ does) made a fool out of him though.

she replied that she has israeli and "pirezian" citizenships ("pirezian" is a nationality a 2006 poll invented to check for Hungarian xenophobia. Turned out the majority of Hungarians don't like them and don't want them in the country), and that she bought her Hungarian citizenship for cash days before the election.

Needless to say she was sarcastic, but the Jobbik dude immediately published an "OMG JEW IN THE PARLAIMENT!!!!" warning.

Then of course the chick posted on her Facebook how stupid the Jobbik dude was.

Did he let it go after that? Nope! He said that "I was aware of the prank, but it is an entirely possible scenario that somebody from LMP is jewish, since the Hungarian Parliament have more jews in it than Likud"

end of 2012, Hungary :x
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

Well then, the office of the Prime Minister is working on creating a fund in the States, called "Friends of Hungary".

So if you will be feeling like sponsoring the buildup of dictatorship in Hungary, you will be able to finance it directly!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 30, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
I don't know how to elaborate much more on the Hungary sucks theme.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 30, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

I kinda feel sorry for Tamas.  What a screwy country.  Poor guy has got to immigrate.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 30, 2012, 03:41:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 30, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
I don't know how to elaborate much more on the Hungary sucks theme.

Well, Hungary looks better when it stand next to Serbia and Romania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

Well then, the office of the Prime Minister is working on creating a fund in the States, called "Friends of Hungary".

So if you will be feeling like sponsoring the buildup of dictatorship in Hungary, you will be able to finance it directly!

I have a reliable beet supply already.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2012, 03:01:07 PM
An other stuff these FIDESZ guys did, was giving more or less full control over state-sponsored culture (the way this country works, most of culture) to a particular organization (Hungarian Arts Academy or something). They have been faithful supporters of Orban over the years, and now their dominance is layed down even in the new constitution (yeah, ridicoulous).

I saw a short interview with their leader. Quite the presbiteran fellow.
Key points of his view on the future of culture here (as far as state institutions like museums, and state funding is concerned):
-no lack of respect for the nation
-no criticism of christianity
-on the question about "shouldn't church and state be separated" he replied: "why should it be? I am reformed, I am a presbiteran, this is how I want it to be"
-on the comment saying "well, in modern democracies..." he replied: "I don't give a damn about democracy. That democracy is not modern, and not democractic".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 01, 2012, 03:22:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

Well then, the office of the Prime Minister is working on creating a fund in the States, called "Friends of Hungary".

So if you will be feeling like sponsoring the buildup of dictatorship in Hungary, you will be able to finance it directly!

I have a reliable beet supply already.

they could have kickstarter-like tiers:

5 beets: get your own gypsy
10 beets: get a jobbik outfit with afro
etc...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on December 01, 2012, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 30, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

I kinda feel sorry for Tamas.  What a screwy country.  Poor guy has got to immigrate.

I think you mean emigrate. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 02, 2012, 03:52:55 PM
To not only write negatives: remember that Jobbik MP asking for a list of Jewish MPs? It ended up generating a quite large demonstration today, against it of course.

The 3 lead speakers were Bajnai (crisis-handling Socialist PM for a year, now leader of the rapidly rising opposition organization), Mesterhazy (prez of the Socialists), and Rogan, a prominent member of FIDESZ. All made speeches avoiding party politics, except for the Socialist guy.

So yeah of course, Orban is not taking a stand against nazism, since a large number of his voters ARE nazis to a degree, but still having FIDESZ and their opposition on the same stand making pro-freedom and anti-nazi speeches is quite unique.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 03, 2012, 07:37:54 AM
I think it is (probably remote) possibility, that Orban has started the "decomissioning" of Jobbik.

The "make a list of Jews" speech occured with perfect timing for Fidesz as I mentioned, as public discourse should be about the fact that we don't really have fully democratic elections anymore. But no, discussion is about (the clearly present) anti-semitism.
So I am having a hard time believing that the timing was coincidental - I think Jobbik, or just the MP, was bribed to do it at that day.

But now with Rogan's participation at yesterday's anti-Jobbik rally, FIDESZ backstabbed that deal I guess.

With a little more than a year until the elections, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the first move in a long term operation to weaken, discredit, then destroy Jobbik, throwing them away as now being useless.

And that's because this would be far from being the first time. Orban's only genius is in manipulating people, and scheming.
The farmer's party was always one of the strongests in the 90s. They became the smaller half of a coalition with FIDESZ in 98.
Altough their crew was dumb and corrupt, it was still impressive, how totally they were teared apart slowly. When the dust of the next election settled, they were literally gone.
And the first governing party of post-commie times, MDF. They first were eaten by FIDESZ, then a female leader of them (Ibolya David), tried to regain independence. She let go the FIDESZ-serving senior members, she adopted a classi conservative stance, and made a noteworthy success by gaining an EU Parliament seat.
Which triggered Orban's campaign I think. Drug problems of her son leaked, phone tapping of the party (from which, by a trick I can't recally, David got out worse because she made the fact public or something like that), a clearly FIDESZ-sponsored young pretender within the party...
Long story short, Orban is an expert in destroying parties on the right side of the spectrum, and I wonder if a plan has been set into motion against Jobbik.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 04, 2012, 01:53:37 PM
 :lol:

That asshole main culture guy I wrote about?


In that interview he not only outlined how much of a patriot christian he is, he also very vehemently refused the comparison to the most determined cultural minister of the post-56 era.

Turns out, he finished the university in 56. In 1957, when there were executions, retributions, and only the most loyal and servile communists go get into positions with ANY kind of relevance, he catapulted from a fresh graduate to a senior position (lead designer or something like that) in the General Architecture Corporate (state owned organization dealing with architectury stuff)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 07, 2012, 06:41:59 AM
I just don't get this government.
Really, there are only 3 possible explanations which could encompass the different idiocies they have been doing:
-they are in fact a really smart gang, with NOTHING on their agenda but robbing the budget blind before the people will have enough of them and they need to flee to South America
-they are just totally incapable of performing their job, this coupled with Orban's pathologic fear of not being re-elected, pushing them from one haphazard disaster to an other
-some kind of combination of these two

I mean, they spent years after years attacking any cuts of state spending on higher education, namely the number of "free" spaces.
And now they decrease them to a low not seen since before WW2.

Is it a problem on it's own? Not for me. They do offer 50-50 state-student deal for a lot of places, plus state-subsidized student loans.

But, while they do this, they spend bigger money than they save here, on football teams and stadiums. And other idiocy, like 4 billion forints on that Friends of Hungary bullshit. I bet that money alone could finance a much milder cutback on education.

edit: and also, they announced yesterday that they would make gas and electricity prices decrease 10%. The fuck is this shit
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 10, 2012, 01:02:55 PM
A (so far not huge) group of uni students are on a semi-improvised demonstration. They blockaded a bridge on the Danube for a while, now marching through Budapest
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2012, 04:10:50 PM
The higher education thing is still in full swing.

Governmential efforts to put the fire out escalated it  :lol:

Here is a brief timeline of said reactions:

-it is not a fee. It is a contribution
-"I don't understand why the college students are demonstrating. This decision only affects the ones coming after them, the current high school students" - said by two prominent FIDESZ members
*high schoolers start joining the occassional demonstrations, planning a full-blown "strike"*
-Orban asked about this back in Brussels: "the matter will be handled by the weekend"
-he comes home, refuses to meet with the student organizations, rather pulls a cringe-worthy stunt of having a coffee with some young people in a posh pub, all pre-arranged (bodyguards sealing off the pub in advance, only letting these "random youth" in etc)
-he throws the previous concept out the window announces a radically different one (where everyone would get state sponsorship if they manager good enough -still not determined- entry scores). Gives the ministry 3 days to come up with a plan
*queue in biggest demonstration yet*, yesterday

Yesterday, several thousand protesters, after the end of the official demo, go to the state radio's building (like anyone still listens to that), demands that they get to read their 6 points in the 9PM news.
Radio agrees. But ends up not letting the student rep read it, instead they made the demonstration their first news, read SOME of the 6 points. 10PM news does not feature the demo at all.

This morning the relevant minister met with a student delegation, with the loud promise of 40k paid college/uni places, but the actual criteria on how to get those are missing, and the students quickly leave, saying that for them the government appears to be in complete disarray over the issue, as none of their questions could be answered and the minister was in no shape to brief them on details, let alone negotiate them.

EDIT: also today, several parents reported to a leftie newspaper that their high school students in a town where separately interviewed/interrogated by the principal regarding their take on these demonstrations, and wether they know anything about any plans for the school. She logged the answers, and allegedly will send them to the government's office in the county.
:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2012, 05:41:06 PM
A few student leaders were taken away by the police tonight, since they took charge of the couple hundred protesters, who -at the end of the organized demonstration- went to block one of the Danube bridges, and this was not announced previously.

Not a biggie I think, I mean, the police was obliged to do so, but still a nice pic on how you run a full circle in politics:


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F9636_464916526878463_607147088_n.jpg&hash=4a2c030149df09079c5a413583bb8a1e2649fafd)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 30, 2013, 07:55:10 AM
Couple of days ago the finance minister causally mentioned that half a million Hungarians are working in other countries ("we will get them back!"). This is way over what people thought before.

And it looks like it wasn't just something he made up. His ministry actually quotes a gathering of estimates from embassies. That says about 300k are in the UK, most in London, 100k in Germany, 50k in Austria, the rest dispersed throughout the EU.

That's like 1/7th of the entire active-age population  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 08:33:54 AM
I wonder what percentage of all working Eastern Europeans are in London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 30, 2013, 09:50:23 AM
"Viktatura - putting Viktori into Diktatur!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 09:54:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 08:33:54 AM
I wonder what percentage of all working Eastern Europeans are in London.

For Poles, it apparently dropped sharply recently. It seems it's easier to find a job in Warsaw than it is in London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 02:06:09 PM
Should I be: thinking twice before I comment on the Hungarian Internet?

Mr. Papcsák is an important member of the FIDESZ family. He is a go to guy when it comes to corruption, cheating on an election (he is the only MP evah, to have the court determine his staff cheated), or putting his name on shady bills.

His loyalty is only overshadowed by his sense of pride.

So when he discovered this thing called the Internet, and how blog comments on the online edition of the lamest left-wing newspaper (Népszava) say bad things about him, he turned to the police in search of justice for his damaged ego.

The police asked Népszava to hand over their server logs so the identity of the commenters could be revealed. The newspaper declined.

HOWEVER, looks like SOMEHOW the police did find at least some of the commenters. The newspaper could only interview one so far I think. She was called to appear at the police, as a WITNESS in this case.
Now of course as a witness you cannot say falsehoods, so she admitted that she was the one telling all that crap about Mr. Papcsák.

I am not sure how this will proceed, but it does raise some questions: how the fuck did the police get their hand on the commenter's identify? Népszava, and the person's ISP both decline that they would have given the info away (the ISP never ever got a request even, IIRC).
Also, is this an indication of things to come? My Internet post happen to find a FIDESZ functionary in a foul mood and I am off to the police station answering questions?

WTB job on the North American continent. kthxbye
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 09, 2013, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 02:06:09 PMNow of course as a witness you cannot say falsehoods

Uhm, at least here you can refuse to testify as a witness if it could incriminate you or your close family/partner.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 09, 2013, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 02:06:09 PMNow of course as a witness you cannot say falsehoods

Uhm, at least here you can refuse to testify as a witness if it could incriminate you or your close family/partner.

yeah turns out its the same here.

Isn't that kind of shooting yourself in the foot tough? "I am not testifying, because, actually, I am the perpetrator!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on February 09, 2013, 05:03:21 PM
Yeah, I don't think that the point is to use the law to punish the perpetrator, but rather to identify them so that the can be assaulted by paramilitary thugs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 10, 2013, 12:27:13 AM
It sounds like defamation or libel, which surely isn't a criminal issue? :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AM
so there were these college/uni student demos against a bunch of stuff like the sudden drastic cut to the higher education budget, or that to solve the problem of fresh graduates mass-exodusing out of the country, the government introduced a rule that if you got your diploma on a state-sponsored spot, you ought to stay 2 years in the country or pay the whole thing back.

So short timeline:

-demonstrations start
-country and government surprised and shocked - non nazi youngsters have voice and determination?!!
-routine bullshit by the government fails to slow down the demos, which are organized by the "official" countrywide student council body HÖOK and un-official smaller but more radical organization HaHa
-government tries to negotiate, main effort seems to be on turning HÖOK and HaHa against each other
-HaHa is not allowed into the negotiations, HÖOK is fine with that
-HÖOK and the government make a preliminary deal about future negotiations, main point is that the government would not make any final decisions on the above issues until then.
-HÖOK stops with demos, HaHa tries to keep the flame alive but with very limited success
-this week, government declares it will put the "stay home for 2 years or suffer the consequences!" idea into the constitution
-HÖOK leader is "confused"
-government:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fi%2FXfBBrTekP3C18KDo4tzhGw%2F1.jpg%3Fv%3D50123647&hash=0c3835c1ce0dbd5a11de80b0a500d9463da90ef0)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 10, 2013, 05:23:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AMit will put the "stay home for 2 years or suffer the consequences!" idea into the constitution

Oh yeah, that's definitely something that needs to be enshrined in the constitution. :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 07:40:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2013, 05:23:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AMit will put the "stay home for 2 years or suffer the consequences!" idea into the constitution

Oh yeah, that's definitely something that needs to be enshrined in the constitution. :huh:

well, this is the kind of people who rule as with a 2/3rd majority.

They have all kinds of shit in the constitution now. They change something in it every other month.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.

well it is not restricting their movement, it is just having pay them some huge-ass amount of money if they leave :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.

well it is not restricting their movement, it is just having pay them some huge-ass amount of money if they leave :contract:

Thus effectively restricting the movement of workers.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 11, 2013, 07:28:31 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.

well it is not restricting their movement, it is just having pay them some huge-ass amount of money if they leave :contract:

Thus effectively restricting the movement of workers.  :P
This does seem a bit like Baldrick proposing a very cunning plan to get past the ECJ :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2013, 08:10:34 AM
Fans of FIDESZ have been holding "Peace Marches" to show mass support for their government and leader, beloved Orban.

The socialists organized a demonstration labelled "Hunger March" yesterday, in front of Parlaiment, in part to mock that name, I think.

Few things happened:

first, in funny twist of fate, scheduled maintenance work on the park in front of Parliament suddenly got switched to yesterday, so they couldn't get real close to the buildings, due to ditches, pipes, and construction machinery.

secondly, when they got there, a huge-ass sign was welcoming them above the parking place of Parliament, reading "welcome, participants of the socialst Powerhunger March!"

Who put it up there? Nobody knew. They couldn't take it down, as it was behind the triple police line of defense (I think there were more police officers than protesters).

But somebody made a pic yesterday afternoon:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.cdn.blog.hu%2Ffi%2Ffideszfigyelo%2Fimage%2FEhsegmenet_Fidesz_provokalo_molino_szerkesztes.jpg&hash=2c9939dd33886cdef6fff2efd7230e3cdeebf528)

So looks like the police actively helped put up the protester-mocking sign.
Also, that greenish-uniformed fellow in the back is a member of the newly formed Parliament Guard, under personal command of Chairman of the House, and aggressive asshole Laszlo Kover.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2013, 08:11:07 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.cdn.blog.hu%2Ffi%2Ffideszfigyelo%2Fimage%2F0211_Ehsegmenet_Kossuth_ter_eleje.jpg&hash=ca94cb18ecc8639903f9d0bbced041626056ff44)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2013, 11:53:42 AM
"Altough we beat their corruption-expert packs off from under our windows, there are still people who replaced their red underwears with orange ones, and make sure it peaks out of their clothing. The fight against them will occupy us for a long time to come".

Is that a quote from the "peace fight" times of the 50s? No, it is from Orban's yearly speech.
Looks like with the IMF as good as gone and no negotiations, he quickly needed a new enemy, and they will be the turncloacks, the not true FIDESZ-supporters, the ones not pure in heart.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on February 26, 2013, 12:38:37 PM
Rejoice Tamas, today Italy made Hungary look a bit better.

And actually among EU countries, if anyone cared about Romania and Bulgaria, or if internet connections enabled their citizens to participate on languish, they would make Hungary look better too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 26, 2013, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on February 26, 2013, 12:38:37 PM
Rejoice Tamas, today Italy made Hungary look a bit better.

And actually among EU countries, if anyone cared about Romania and Bulgaria, or if internet connections enabled their citizens to participate on languish, they would make Hungary look better too.

Wasn't that hot guy we had once from Romania?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on February 26, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Alexandru H was from Romania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 26, 2013, 12:58:16 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 26, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Alexandru H was from Romania.

Yeah and I believe the hot guy was his friend.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on February 26, 2013, 01:00:00 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 26, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Alexandru H was from Romania.

Wasn't he the guy that saw Jesus on his wall or something?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 04, 2013, 02:44:35 PM
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/01/guest-post-constitutional-revenge/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
Americans like to discuss Amendments, now we will have one of our own! Well, it's the 4th in like 15 months, but anyways. It's a major one, which will get voted today.
The key for it is that there were several "temporary addendums" which they pasted in as "laws" but actually changed how the constitution worked. The Constitutional Court got pissed off after a while and declared that these are in fact affecting the constitutional rights and therefore are unconstitutional laws.
So now Orban is having all of the controversial stuff added straight into the constitution. So, a lot of the amendment was in fact recently found unconstitutional. But since they will be raised into constitutional status, they will cease to be unconstitutional, duh.

Key points (ALL of these will be part of the Constitution):

-"servitude" of college/uni graduates (where holders of state-financed diplomas must stay in the country for two years or pay their education)

-anti hate-speech laws will be raised into the constitution. I think the most important part here is that until now "public figures" had to put up with people having opinions about them in public. Not so much after this.

-leader of the office of judges (not sure of the best translation, an office they created to control judges-related stuff, chaired by the wife of a FIDESZ leader), will have the right to move any court cases to a court and judge of his/her choosing (eg. move a case from a Budapest court to Bumfuckville)

-Parliament will decide which organization is a church/religion and which isn't

-Constitutional court will not have the right to opinionate on budget-changing laws (no wonder. they fucked up the socialist governments on several occassions by having the const. court destroy their reform plans)

-the applicable governmental office will be able to make decisions instead of local municipalities if they fail to make a decision  by the applicable deadline

-if the EU or other organization fines Hungary for anything, the amount of the fine must be collected from the population in form of a one-time special tax

-the Constitutional Court will not be able to investigate ANY laws if the lawmaker did not specifically ask them to do so. Also, they cannot any more reference their decisions made before the enactment of the current constitution

-local municipalities will be required to give shelter to the homeless, but also make it illegal to to be homeless, basically. Sleeping in public spaces will be unconstitutional, in a way.

-"marriage is the union of a man and a woman"

-"basis of the family is marriage, and the parent-child relation". The Const. Court destroyed this earlier in it's law-form, because it is retarded (let alone partners, but siblings living together under the same roof could not be considered a family under this). No bother, they just make it constitutional

-during election campaigns, campaigning in any form of media but the state-ran can be banned.

plus a bunch of minor stuff, like they write it into the constitution that the situation of the agriculture (I guess the fact that not everything is yet under FIDESZ ownership) must be managed by 2/3rd law in the future


Plus, for added flavor, they will write it into law today, that electricity services (for households), cannot make a profit. They are planning to buy the electricity companies, so they don't stop here with showing them the finger. While they will be banned from making "profit", there will be new requirements for the number of customer service offices they must maintain, they cannot charge more than maintenance cost for streetlights and other municipal services, and a bunch of other "why? fuck you, that's why" regulations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 11, 2013, 04:02:07 AM
suckers.

ad get out
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 11, 2013, 05:24:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
-during election campaigns, campaigning in any form of media but the state-ran can be banned.

Can you elaborate? Would online ad campaigns/websites be forbidden?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 05:31:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 11, 2013, 05:24:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
-during election campaigns, campaigning in any form of media but the state-ran can be banned.

Can you elaborate? Would online ad campaigns/websites be forbidden?

AFAIK yes. Altough the law only gives the option to ban these, doesnt outright ban them. that works great in general with the media by the way. They gave themselves the option to issue crippling fines, and so both big private TV channels ceased basically all political coverages in their news, and stopping political shows.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 07:53:57 AM
the currently ongoing "debate" in parliament is a disgrace. Since they will also vote on that law affecting electricity bills which I mentioned, the awaited Orban speech at start were "ENTIRELY" about  how they decreased the burdens of the common people (they decreased utility bills by 10% by decree at the start of this year).
And this being a cowardly socialist hellhole, what did the opposition answer? Socialists: "it was well in time to finally do somethig for the people!" nazis: "they should decrease it 30%"

And then, as a small ex-socialist faction demonstrated with showing a big "dictatorship!" display, Orban turned that around, and declared it is to protect the big electricity companies.

so that is the strategy for today: while they make a major step in turning us into Belorussia, they (apparently successfully) try to switch conversation to how awesomly they decreased living costs (altough you could argue with a worthless currency, negative "growth" and 5% inflation what difference their stunt does).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 07:59:48 AM
BTW as part of that rhetoric, Orban in his speech urged the people to "rebel against the utility companies"

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 04:41:51 PM
Looks like they also figured out they could use this "10% bill decrease" stunt to refresh their local databases on people. A few years ago one of their prominent members got into a scandal for being busted on using a sophisticated list of all voters in his town, ranking them based on their feelings toward FIDESZ.

What they will do now is to have "approach all families" to sign for supporting FIDESZ's "efforts" for "decreasing the utility bills".

So you can choose between giving your name to this disgraceful masquerade of showcased governemt support, or decline signing it and face the prospect of entering the database as an enemy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 11, 2013, 04:45:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 07:59:48 AM
BTW as part of that rhetoric, Orban in his speech urged the people to "rebel against the utility companies"

:huh:

Can we do that without losing utilities services?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 11, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
They'll probably pass a law for that. Or that uitility companies can never, ever cut services.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 11, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
They'll probably pass a law for that. Or that uitility companies can never, ever cut services.
They'll probably put it into the constitution as part of the inviolable Christian-Magyar patrimony of St Stephen :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 11, 2013, 05:01:34 PM
So when does the irredentism start up?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 05:14:56 PM
A stunt from the demonstrations of recent days (most notably a flash mob of a few young people got themselves into the yard of the fidesz party hq, triggering a counter-demo from fidesz supporting elderly people), was to read quotes supporting the opposition's stance on the matters at hand - from Orban himself. Since he went from radical liberal through moderate centrist and then elitist conservative to leader of plebs, he has contradicted himself A LOT. As to how much: these youngsters I mentioned managed to have the pro-fidesz mob boo and hiss while listening to the readout of their leaders' speech (since they didn't realise it wasn't an original opposition piece)  from.... 2007.
We have always been at war wit Eurasia
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on March 11, 2013, 05:22:18 PM
Well think yourself lucky that Orban more of a Mussolini rather than a Hitler. He could have done real damage otherwise.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 04:42:01 AM
I just wonder why the EU bothers with being upset about this.

Just suspend Hungary's member rights and if they persist kick them out of the EU. Then wait 10 years and send in the peacekeeping forces. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 04:50:30 AM
heh, I read there were rumblings in the EU about suspending the voting rights of Hungary.

If that happens, time to pack I guess, because all it will accomplish is Orban sending them a "thank you!" note and use it as a CB to leave and be left alone to his own agenda.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 12, 2013, 05:16:32 AM
Hey Tamas, how does the whole "you must stay for 2 years in the country after finishing university" work? I guess that it flies in the face of the EU's freedom of movement for workers, but I guess that Orban isn't worried about it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 05:40:32 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 12, 2013, 05:16:32 AM
Hey Tamas, how does the whole "you must stay for 2 years in the country after finishing university" work? I guess that it flies in the face of the EU's freedom of movement for workers, but I guess that Orban isn't worried about it.

I don't think it does unless you can show how it damages non-Hungarians - the rules are usually emforced in a way to prevent discrimination of non-nationals, not vice-versa.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on March 12, 2013, 08:37:16 AM
I guess the real question is how is the government planning to prevent people from leaving.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 08:55:28 AM
So now knowing more details, it appears the excuse for Orban's outrage yesterday in Parliament (and "great" excuse for not talking about the destruction of last remaining checks and balances in our "democracy") was that the Energy Office's decision to lower energy prices by 10% in January -THE point in government success propaganda ever since-, got turned down by the court recently, after the energy companies complained that due to the extra taxes they also received in January made the price significantly lower than their cost. A price which was already lower than their costs, as far as private customers are concerned (so much for the OMG FOREIGN COMPANIES ARE ROBBERING TEH PEOPLES BLIND argument).

So, obviously, that would not bode well - the only "success" they could show in almost 3 years was something to make all communists proud, and now the legal system would take that away? UNHEARD OF!

So Orban had this speech about the "scandalous" court decision yesterday. Today one of his henchmen announced, that not only there will be more decrease to utility prices, but also that they will give the Energy Office the right to issue decrees, which, in turn, could not be challenged in front of a court, so the pesky problem of private companies seeking legal defense from ad-hoc political stunts destroying their livelihoods would be gone.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2013, 08:58:40 AM
So how are they going to get utilities to provide services for a loss? :hmm:

Physical violence?  :menace:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 09:07:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2013, 08:58:40 AM
So how are they going to get utilities to provide services for a loss? :hmm:

Physical violence?  :menace:

Well supposedly they are still good by charging extra to business, at least were. Incidently, Orban today mentioned that having expensive energy for business is unacceptable and they shall "fix" that as well.

Point is, I think, they are quite bent on making the private energy companies leave the country and sell everything back to them. I dont understand why they haven't done so already, allegedly the buyout price is pretty good as far as the worth of the infrastructure is concerned (altough I guess as part of the deal a portion of that must by given to state dignitaries greasing the deal), and it appears they won't see any kind of profit in the country for quite a while.

Then with state ownership, they will be free to return to the Kadar-ian measures of keeping living costs down from borrowed money.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 12, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
Kinda funny, Germany has it the other way round: energy intensive industries are getting tax brakes on their energy bills. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 12, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yo Tamas, according to EUOT:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.
QuoteApparently unmarried citizens without children are now excluded from applying for certain public offices, and will have to pay an additional tax.

Is that true (the public office part)?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2013, 11:34:02 AM
Wow...so Tamas do you know anybody good?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 12, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yo Tamas, according to EUOT:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.
QuoteApparently unmarried citizens without children are now excluded from applying for certain public offices, and will have to pay an additional tax.

Is that true (the public office part)?  :huh:

havent heard of that. They already have tax breaks after children and such, and there were plans of decreasing the pensions of those who do not have any children when reaching retirement age, but I think those remained plans.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 12:06:25 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/12/intesasanpaolo-hungary-idUSL6N0C4BMH20130312?type=companyNews

QuoteIntesa CEO: Hungary has turned into a "nightmare", could cut presence
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 13, 2013, 11:15:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081

So taking complete control of the press is perfectly legitimate and democratic use of power if you win an election eh?  That is a pretty old school German right there.  I can almost hear him claiming East Germany/Nazi Germany is actually more democratic than the greedy grocers in the western liberal countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2013, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081

fucking Paradox fucktards
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 13, 2013, 02:56:36 PM
That post was odd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
The President has signed the Amendment.

I just saw his TV speech over it. Considering that he is a college budy of Orban, it was rather dramatic. Altough not saying it out loud, he made it perfectly clear that he disagrees with the amendment, but the consitution (what FIDESZ made) has a clear wording on amendments: "the President signs it". So that's that.

Of course it is just worthless rhetoric since he could have resigned instead of signing it, still I somewhat appreciate the dramatic tone of the whole announcement. He made it look and sound like it was a grave sad thing.
Which it is.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 13, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 12, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yo Tamas, according to EUOT:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.
QuoteApparently unmarried citizens without children are now excluded from applying for certain public offices, and will have to pay an additional tax.

Is that true (the public office part)?  :huh:

havent heard of that. They already have tax breaks after children and such, and there were plans of decreasing the pensions of those who do not have any children when reaching retirement age, but I think those remained plans.


Didn't Augustus try something like that? I don't think it worked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 13, 2013, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081

fucking Paradox fucktards

Yikes.  Yi and Derspeiss should read this if for nothing else to demonstrate that fascism does fit into the rightwing spectrum.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 13, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
Didn't Augustus try something like that? I don't think it worked.

I think his baby making and marriage policies worked better than the 'don't cheat on your spouse' ones.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 14, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
Trivia: the President today promoted the police general (or whatever the hell they have there) who is in charge of TEK, the counter-terrorist unit.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F400%2F4003%2F40034%2F4003462_f9b0dd2acd2096d236d14efd6c0b3d94_wm.jpg&hash=08f46fd635060ef099825a8d83d1c4f0f80a1f8a)


Moral of the story? It is worth declaring the area of the Presidental office a protected area and have it sealed off from the protesters who wanted the Prez to not sign the Amendment.


Meh. TEK is really Orban's personal bodyguard though. Chair of Parliament also has such a unit (now defined in the Constitution since the amendement). Wonder who else will have such units in the future. I guess with the rule of law slowly being destroyed, the prominents will need personally loyal armed men.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Rumor is, the 5th (much smaller) amendment is in the works, which would make it forbidden to reveal how many Hungarian citizens there are outside the borders, to "protect their security". That's kind of an important data though, considering that masses of ethnic Hungarians have been granted citizenship AND voting rights. Having an unknown, but surely huge number of voters mail in votes no independent organization will ever see... That's a bit fishy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:13:11 AM
wtf  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.

PiSiots came here to celebrate the 15th of March with their Orban-lovers, except huge snowstorms cancelled the party. Nobody told the Polacks though. They could had been told the night before "lol poland dont hop on morning train, we are buried under snow", but they didn't.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:42:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.

PiSiots came here to celebrate the 15th of March with their Orban-lovers, except huge snowstorms cancelled the party. Nobody told the Polacks though. They could had been told the night before "lol poland dont hop on morning train, we are buried under snow", but they didn't.

LOL yes, I heard about it. They are now saying that the government sabotaged their train so that they missed the celebration. :tinfoil:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:53:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:42:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.

PiSiots came here to celebrate the 15th of March with their Orban-lovers, except huge snowstorms cancelled the party. Nobody told the Polacks though. They could had been told the night before "lol poland dont hop on morning train, we are buried under snow", but they didn't.

LOL yes, I heard about it. They are now saying that the government sabotaged their train so that they missed the celebration. :tinfoil:

but there was no celebration.  :huh:

in fact, Orban fled the scene even before the snow situation on "important business in Brussels" since he was probably afraid of demonstrations against the new amendment. So the Polacks would had missed their beloved leader anyways.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
FFS even on a "moderate right" Hungarian blog they make it a habit to explore the question of the jewish ancestry of the communist leaders. And then I am stupid enough to get into an argument with the nazis in the comment section.

It is sickening and ridicoulous at the same time, that a country with almost no jewish population, "jewish issues" dominate the everyday political talk.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
"Judeo-commune" (Zydo-komuna) (a claim that Jews hated good Polish/Hungarian/etc. Catholics so much, they became communist oopressors after the war) is the new blood libel in our part of Europe.

Incidentally, the more I read about pre-war and during-war Poland (numerus clausus, "school bench ghetto", aiding and abetting Holocaust etc.) the more I am convinced that if I was Jewish and alive in 1945, I would have sided with communists. Polish "patriots" were such a horrid bunch.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 21, 2013, 07:35:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Rumor is, the 5th (much smaller) amendment is in the works, which would make it forbidden to reveal how many Hungarian citizens there are outside the borders, to "protect their security". That's kind of an important data though, considering that masses of ethnic Hungarians have been granted citizenship AND voting rights. Having an unknown, but surely huge number of voters mail in votes no independent organization will ever see... That's a bit fishy.
It sounds like an obvious attempt to stuff the ballot boxes.  A little too obvious to believe, but with that crowd I suppose there's no low they won't sink to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 08:01:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 14, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
Trivia: the President today promoted the police general (or whatever the hell they have there) who is in charge of TEK, the counter-terrorist unit.

Now you can fight TEKWAR.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
"Judeo-commune" (Zydo-komuna) (a claim that Jews hated good Polish/Hungarian/etc. Catholics so much, they became communist oopressors after the war) is the new blood libel in our part of Europe.

Incidentally, the more I read about pre-war and during-war Poland (numerus clausus, "school bench ghetto", aiding and abetting Holocaust etc.) the more I am convinced that if I was Jewish and alive in 1945, I would have sided with communists. Polish "patriots" were such a horrid bunch.

Yeah that's sometimes my reaction. "you are surprised the jewish survivors of the "patriots" flocked to communism? really?"

also: Zydo? we learned the word for jew from slavs? (its "zsidó" here) Whats with the Kazars being jewish? We lived with them for, like, centuries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 08:24:52 AM
on second thought, maybe you learned from us!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 21, 2013, 10:04:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Rumor is, the 5th (much smaller) amendment is in the works, which would make it forbidden to reveal how many Hungarian citizens there are outside the borders, to "protect their security". That's kind of an important data though, considering that masses of ethnic Hungarians have been granted citizenship AND voting rights. Having an unknown, but surely huge number of voters mail in votes no independent organization will ever see... That's a bit fishy.

So the voting census is going to be a state secret or what?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 10:24:11 AM
Pretty much. the part listing citizens with no hungarian address, at least.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 21, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
"Judeo-commune" (Zydo-komuna) (a claim that Jews hated good Polish/Hungarian/etc. Catholics so much, they became communist oopressors after the war) is the new blood libel in our part of Europe.

Heh I took a course of 20th Century Eastern Europe during my short period in Grad School, and IIRC one of the best ways to get turned into the secret police was to be Jewish.  I remember thinking how shitty that had to be...survived the Holocaust, got back to work and going about your business and then somebody rats you out to Securitate for being a Bourgeois counter-revolutionary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 05:52:14 AM
This morning a band of security guards basically assaulted a small community building owned by the local municipality in Budapest. As it turns out, the municipality (FIDESZ-ran of course) or rather, the government, discovered that the recent flashmob-y opposition demonstrations by the young people were planned and organized in that building.
So the security personnel beat down the locks, installed new ones and proceeded to clear the building. About half a dozen guys refuse to leave right now, police and catastrophe recovery (!) is now on the scene as well.

The director of the building told the press that he was contacted yesterday late afternoon that they until today morning to empty the premises, which wa simply impossible since they had equipment and furniture and shit.

This getting less and less funny every week.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 05:54:50 AM
Was it a squat or did they legally lease these premises?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 05:58:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 05:54:50 AM
Was it a squat or did they legally lease these premises?

There were some debates over its fate some months ago as I read, but then the municipality and the leasers reached an agreement, so it was legal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 02:10:04 PM
:bleeding: so looks like these idiots stopped paying rent for that building. God damn, if you go against a reckless government, cover your ass.

Also, a German TV covered our amendment with a cartoon or something in a news show for kids.
Our government got pissed of course, but what's best is that apparently Orban made a comment along the lines of "if this happened on a hungarian TV the creators would be out of the station in no time"
O RLY MR DICTATOR WANNABE?

The guy is less and less able to hide his real intentions and take on the relationship between him and his nation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Liep on March 24, 2013, 06:33:57 AM
For the Danish speaking. Here is a nice article to give an overview of Hungarian politics.

http://www.information.dk/455355

(P.S. I wonder if Krarup thinks this is an assassination attempt on Orban?)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 24, 2013, 04:55:58 PM
There was a local election in a town, where the new party of the ex-PM Bajnai had its first test. They had a mayor candidate. The other big opposition party the Socialists also had their own.

Result? Altough Bajnai's candidate got second place, the FIDESZ candidate so trashed everyone else, that even the combined votes on opposition candidates would not have been enough.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 24, 2013, 05:12:54 PM
Corruption?  Or does FIDESZ now enjoy overwhelming support?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 02:25:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2013, 05:12:54 PM
Corruption?  Or does FIDESZ now enjoy overwhelming support?

Actually I am quite certain it was a fair result. The latest country-wide polls showed two things:
-the huge amount of unsure people are mobilizing
-they mostly flock to FIDESZ

I need to GTFO :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
latest news is, they will refrain from making the number of non-local citizens secret.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 25, 2013, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: Liep on March 24, 2013, 06:33:57 AM
For the Danish speaking. Here is a nice article to give an overview of Hungarian politics.

http://www.information.dk/455355

(P.S. I wonder if Krarup thinks this is an assassination attempt on Orban?)

Nej, det tror jeg ikke det er. Eller mente du en anden Krarup?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 25, 2013, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
latest news is, they will refrain from making the number of non-local citizens secret.

It seems your government's m.o is what we had under the rule of PiS.

Essentially, every week they would announce some outlandish shit that would get people up in arms only to be scrapped the following week, while they would do what they really want in the background.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2013, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
latest news is, they will refrain from making the number of non-local citizens secret.

It seems your government's m.o is what we had under the rule of PiS.

Essentially, every week they would announce some outlandish shit that would get people up in arms only to be scrapped the following week, while they would do what they really want in the background.

yeah, pretty much
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 19, 2013, 11:36:55 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/547364_10152747753850483_576930581_n.png)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 19, 2013, 12:31:04 PM
goddamn ROMAnians
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on April 19, 2013, 12:39:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 19, 2013, 12:31:04 PM
goddamn ROMAnians
Maybe you shouldn't have weakened Austria so much then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2013, 02:15:05 PM
There would have been a lot of stuff to cover here, but like most of the country I am becoming resigned about the whole thing. Let Hungarian Putin come! It clearly what we deserve.

However, this is worth a laugh.


One of the biggest scandals of recent months were the tobacco concessions.

A year or so ago the government declared that FOR TEH CHILDREN, selling of tobacco products would be tied to 20 years licenses, and those would be of course handed out based on the merits of the applications for them.

There were warning signs of what was to come, most notably that the Word file of the bill for this law was clearly marked as made on the computer of the owner of a big Hungarian tobacco product producer, local to the city of one of FIDESZ's leading personalities, who was, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT, was the sponsor of the bill.
But of course this fiasco didn't slow them down.

Couple of months ago, application results have been made public. It was worse than what anyone anticipated. The list of winners is a who-is-who of local FIDESZ dignitaries and their families throughout the country, from Budapest to the smallest village. Small family business who made a living out of small shop anchored on cigarette selling will be put out of business come Monday, just so political bedfellows could get extra income.

Some journalists, at the wake of the results made quick investigations, posing as tobacco-sellers who lost, calling the winners to work out a deal. It was clearly evident that a lot of those winners were no more than strawmen, acting for bigger players.

Later on, it got even nastier. for example, almost 30 license-owners are using the same office, an office of the aforementioned tobacco-baron as their HQ. So much for "supporting family businesses".

And the examples could go on. They severly restricted the free trade of tobacco products, and ransacked established businesses and livelihoods in order to let in all their minor supporters in the reckless looting that their elite has been doing for the last 3 years.

And the reason I decided to write this, is to show the best symbol of this whol disgrace. In a village which was allocated two licenses, husband and wife won them. They probably figured out that buying or renting a business place costs money, because they decided to open the two tobacco shops like this:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmost.444.hu%2Fassets%2Fsites%2F2%2F993044_679809432046222_775932600_n.jpg&hash=95a484aab0b87c9c1b1c001b00fb588d82579339)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:33:39 PM
:lol: Fidesz is really benchmark when it comes to clientele politics.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2013, 07:09:20 AM
I think it is getting more and more obvious that the government-sponsored press is pushing harder and harder to switch public discourse to a topic which is at worst neutral for the government: gay rights.

pro-FIDESZ blogs, newspapers, magazines, discuss the "building pressure" of "oppression of tolerance" as something amounting to a danger on everyday lives. And altough active pro-gay activity is indeed very low in Hungary, active and loud homophobia was almost as rare until recent past. Sure you had your nazis frothing in closeted  frustration and it's not like it was a great idea to publicly display your gayness everywhere, but there was no active prosecution, and the civil union law enabled gay couples and gave basically the exact rights as marriage did.
The latter has been gone for a while now, because civil union has been made nothing but a legally empty shell, making (hetero only) marriage the only form of parntership which gives any kind of real legal weight, but all this FIDESZ-related press coverage of the gay movement is, I am telling you, will start to escalate the situation.

And I think that is exactly what they want. Let there be debates about homosexuals, instead of their countless thievery.

example:

"Heti Válasz" has been going down the drains for quite a while now, but still is trying to act as a respectable moderate-right weekly magazine. Their current cover:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmost.444.hu%2Fassets%2Fsites%2F2%2Fhv1.png&hash=9354625b93e5d70a50ecad68016e4951a3f558dc)

it reads: "DICTATORSHIP OF TOLERANCE. New world order: how the gay movements endanger the rights of the majority"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2013, 07:12:29 AM
Ah Tam, lucky break, otherwise I think you might have been forced into a gay relationship! And just think of the body paint and glitter?! :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2013, 07:21:01 AM
 :lol:

UNBEARABLE OPPRESSION!

Homophobes are funny. I wish they would just be honest with themselves and go down on each other.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2013, 07:25:04 AM
Well Hommen doesn't appear to be honest about it (i.e. they still are against gay marriage) but isn't that what they do? :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
What is with the picture of vegetables under events on that pic?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2013, 08:39:45 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
What is with the picture of vegetables under events on that pic?

Didn't notice that  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2013, 08:42:33 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
What is with the picture of vegetables under events on that pic?


Google translate says it is a conference about market opportunities for Hungarian products, in particular those made of food. :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 18, 2013, 08:53:20 AM
Szegediner Gulasch! :w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 11:49:06 AM
One of our few major oligarchs, Sandor Csanyi today sold basically all of his shares in THE Hungarian bank, OTP (has branches in neighboring countries as well). As he was the owner before this sell, it is quite a thing. Stock plumetted 14%.

This happens a couple of days after the government started talking about resolving the issue of foreign currency debts, hinting at eliminating some, or maybe all, of the extra costs on debt-owers which they accumulated due to price level differences (HUF tanked compared to CHF since these CHF debts were taken).
Not only that has MORAL FUCKING HAZARD written all over it, it would mean a serious blow to all banks present in Hungary.*

*the banks had some pretty fucked up ways to maximize their extortion of the poor SOBs who didn't know better than taking up huge debts in a foreign currency, but still that doesn't justify eliminating ALL risks these folks took in exchange of having super-low interest rates.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Funny how we are moving back to the old world. I just had the thought of checking the state TV's news show to see how they report this sale - their tone will let me find out if this was in accordance with Orban's plans, or it is a sign of Csanyi abandoning Orban's side.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:40:40 PM
lol Hungary won the right to host the next swimming WC. Orban and the state TV are celebrating this like we will be hosting the Olympics
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on July 19, 2013, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Funny how we are moving back to the old world. I just had the thought of checking the state TV's news show to see how they report this sale - their tone will let me find out if this was in accordance with Orban's plans, or it is a sign of Csanyi abandoning Orban's side.

So which one is it?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of Oban, which makes me think of scotch :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:46:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 19, 2013, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Funny how we are moving back to the old world. I just had the thought of checking the state TV's news show to see how they report this sale - their tone will let me find out if this was in accordance with Orban's plans, or it is a sign of Csanyi abandoning Orban's side.

So which one is it?

I missed the start, now I don't know if they even covered it.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 19, 2013, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of Oban, which makes me think of scotch :)

I misread it as Orhan.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 01:40:19 PM
holy shit the sport section following the news (which is usually 3 or 4 minutes tops with various short sports news) spent at least 5 minutes on an interview with Orban on the momentous occassion of us winning the 2019 Swiiming WC, and they spent time before and after that on celebrating this glorious event.

FYI, at the end we were only competing with South Korea, because the other applicants, the Great Powers of Azerbaijain and Mexico City (IIRC) stepped back.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on July 19, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of Oban, which makes me think of scotch :)


Me too. But everything makes me think of scotch. Like the fact that I need to pick up some scotch on the way home today.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2013, 03:21:12 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/22/hungary-banker-profile-idUSL6N0FS2ID20130722


QuoteOCTOPUS

This year, signs emerged of tension between Csanyi and Orban's administration.

Orban's chief of staff, Janos Lazar, gave two interviews in which he said Csanyi had excessive influence, and likened him to an octopus whose tentacles spread over all aspects of life.

"In a democracy, that amount of economic power poses a serious risk," Lazar told the news website 444.hu last month.

If there was already a rift, Csanyi's decision to sell off his shares last week has probably widened it.

Over the weekend, the online edition of Magyar Nemzet, a paper close to Orban's Fidesz party, reported that the OTP chief was considering resigning due to ill health, and that this was why he sold off some stock.

This was contradicted by OTP's chief press officer, Bence Gaspar, who said Csanyi was in good health, would not resign and had sold the shares to raise cash for his agri-businesses.

Several people close to the OTP chief gave Reuters a detailed account on the state of Csanyi's health, on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to speak to the media on this subject.

They said Csanyi underwent planned open heart surgery in February to fix a genetic defect in a part of the aorta and a heart valve. After a five-week recuperation he received a clean bill of health from his doctors, these people said, and was back at work.

They said he has thought about resigning the CEO post and remaining chairman in the future, but not any time soon.

The newspaper story may have been a ploy to undermine him, said several observers, though
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on July 23, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 01:40:19 PM
holy shit the sport section following the news (which is usually 3 or 4 minutes tops with various short sports news) spent at least 5 minutes on an interview with Orban on the momentous occassion of us winning the 2019 Swiiming WC, and they spent time before and after that on celebrating this glorious event.

FYI, at the end we were only competing with South Korea, because the other applicants, the Great Powers of Azerbaijain and Mexico City (IIRC) stepped back.
Still, you can tell that whoever is running the swimming federation is asleep at the wheel.  With the exception of China, countries with fascist governments don't get to host things anymore.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
Asleep? No. Bribed? Most probably.

Orban was there in person when the decision was made. NO WAY he would have taken a chance on that. If he was there, it's because he knew the result in advance.

He has shown unparallelled willingness to "delegate" blame for anything unpopular, and to jump in the spotlight to claim ownership of every success regardless of who worked for it. He would not have risked to stand there while the games are handed to the other country. Impossible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 23, 2013, 10:08:42 AM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of big guns. :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 23, 2013, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 23, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Still, you can tell that whoever is running the swimming federation is asleep at the wheel.  With the exception of China, countries with fascist governments don't get to host things anymore.
Winter Games coming up in Russia. World Cups coming to Russia and Qatar.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on July 23, 2013, 01:47:10 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2013, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 23, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Still, you can tell that whoever is running the swimming federation is asleep at the wheel.  With the exception of China, countries with fascist governments don't get to host things anymore.
Winter Games coming up in Russia. World Cups coming to Russia and Qatar.
Russia is Russia (and therefore good behavior isn't expected from them), and Qatar is a monarchy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 23, 2013, 02:58:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
Asleep? No. Bribed? Most probably.

Orban was there in person when the decision was made. NO WAY he would have taken a chance on that. If he was there, it's because he knew the result in advance.

He has shown unparallelled willingness to "delegate" blame for anything unpopular, and to jump in the spotlight to claim ownership of every success regardless of who worked for it. He would not have risked to stand there while the games are handed to the other country. Impossible.

This is actually rather funny. I'm sure the swimming guys couldn't believe someone wanted to bribe them, if that is what happened.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 08, 2013, 08:45:26 AM
Austrian radio reported on the efforts of Orban to keep Hungarian agricultural land in Hungarian hands. Basically, EU citizens are allowed to buy land anywhere in the EU. New members get a grace period of 10 years, though.

That time is nearly up for Hungary.

They're introducing a law that allows EU citizens to buy land if they can show an agricultural degree that is recognized by Hungary (to be defined) or have worked as self-employed farmer in Hungary for at least three years (which will be nigh impossible for newcomers).

If someone puts up their land for sale, the state gets the option for purchase first. Then the neighbor. Then other farmers in the town. Then farmers in a 20km radius.

The Austrian agricultural envoy to the EU says it may look like it follows the EU regulations, but effectively doesn't. At the same time he pointed at all the Hungarian workers and employees in Austria, asking what it would be like if a Hungarian nurse would only get a work permit, if she could prove three years prior experience as nurse in an Austrian hospital.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 10, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
Although I have been living in the UK for over a month now, I just can`t stop reading up on the stuff back home.

Besides the major oligarch of the country seemingly quietly mobilising his resources against the government after getting into a fight over some agricultural lands with Orban`s second in command, everything has been business as usual: a slow slip into mini-Russia.

lol, the recent wedding of Orban`s daughter was hilarious though. His father made it into a tabloid event, and then of course him and his minions were outraged on the "invasion of privacy" when the press found out that there had been extensive road maintenance works done days before the marriage, including the rural road leading to the place where they held the party, which happened to be one of the officially worst-kept roads of the country. Until two days before the wedding, that is, when a horde of workers and machinery descended upon it and fixed it up.

Because you see it had to be a "traditional" village wedding and all. I AM SURE it is just a coincidence that two weeks before the announcement of the wedding and it being a traditional one, Ms. Orban was filmed dancing at a popular festival (on the right of the sandwich I think, other girl is her sister): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZb4CoDPSo8


Anyways, yesterday Chair of Parliament told in an interview that he would like Parliament to grant the possibility for the government to govern by decrees, as all that bill-voting is tedious and "was introduced in fear of dictatorship" but "that danger has passed".

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 10, 2013, 07:50:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 10, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
Although I have been living in the UK for over a month now, I just can`t stop reading up on the stuff back home.

Huzzah!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 20, 2013, 11:41:40 AM
How fucking disgusting.

In NE Hungary, there is apparently a big, military barracks-like institution for the mentally impaired (if that`s the correct translation), with horrible living conditions.
A lot of them would be able to take care of him/herself alone or with minimal supervision.

The country got a shitload of EU money to improve conditions for them, and as a result they wanted to build 40 homes for the ones who can be moved out of the institution, a small town nearby.

Helped with their (FIDESZ) MP, they have been working hard on preventing that, and now all nearby towns and villages are gathering petitions from their residents -and succeeding magnificently- in an effort to stop the poor sobs be moved to their towns.

The organization of parents with mentally impaired children is trying to convince people on behalf of the patients of the institution, but they are growing desperate in face of all the scare and ignorant fearmongering.

A fucking disgrace.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on September 20, 2013, 12:07:16 PM
NIMBY is a powerfull force.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on September 20, 2013, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2013, 11:41:40 AM
How fucking disgusting.

In NE Hungary, there is apparently a big, military barracks-like institution for the mentally impaired (if that`s the correct translation), with horrible living conditions.
A lot of them would be able to take care of him/herself alone or with minimal supervision.

The country got a shitload of EU money to improve conditions for them, and as a result they wanted to build 40 homes for the ones who can be moved out of the institution, a small town nearby.

Helped with their (FIDESZ) MP, they have been working hard on preventing that, and now all nearby towns and villages are gathering petitions from their residents -and succeeding magnificently- in an effort to stop the poor sobs be moved to their towns.

The organization of parents with mentally impaired children is trying to convince people on behalf of the patients of the institution, but they are growing desperate in face of all the scare and ignorant fearmongering.

A fucking disgrace.

To be fair Tamas that story could (and does) happen in any number of western countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 20, 2013, 12:51:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2013, 11:41:40 AM
How fucking disgusting.

In NE Hungary, there is apparently a big, military barracks-like institution for the mentally impaired (if that`s the correct translation), with horrible living conditions.
A lot of them would be able to take care of him/herself alone or with minimal supervision.

The country got a shitload of EU money to improve conditions for them, and as a result they wanted to build 40 homes for the ones who can be moved out of the institution, a small town nearby.

Helped with their (FIDESZ) MP, they have been working hard on preventing that, and now all nearby towns and villages are gathering petitions from their residents -and succeeding magnificently- in an effort to stop the poor sobs be moved to their towns.

The organization of parents with mentally impaired children is trying to convince people on behalf of the patients of the institution, but they are growing desperate in face of all the scare and ignorant fearmongering.

A fucking disgrace.

Yes, I see it now. Property values collapsing is a good thing. How silly of the locals not to embrace it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 01, 2013, 10:18:21 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24347061#FBM291485

QuoteHungarian homeless law bans sleeping rough

The Hungarian parliament has passed a law which aims to clear several thousand homeless people off the streets of Budapest and other towns.

The government says the law is designed to help the homeless, and that there are enough places in homeless shelters.

But critics deny that, and say the law criminalises the homeless, who could face community work, fines or even imprisonment.

The law is due to come into force next week.

Those caught sleeping rough in urban areas can be sentenced to community service or a fine, if they either refuse to move on when requested to, or are caught in the same area again.

Those who live in shacks in the woods are especially alarmed by one provision in the new law, which allows for those who build such structures without permission to be imprisoned.
'Enough places'

Several hundred protesters gathered outside parliament when the law was passed on Monday evening.

"Homeless people have always been harassed by the authorities," says Tessa Udvarhelyi, an activist of The City Belongs to Everyone, a civic group in Budapest.

"The difference is that this government... is codifying the fact that homeless people are stigmatised, harassed and criminalised."

She estimates that 10,000 people live on the streets of the capital, or in shacks they have built for themselves in the forests on the outskirts.

There are just under 6,000 places in hostels in the Hungarian capital. She says they are overflowing, especially in winter, leaving another 4,000 people to fend for themselves.

These figures are fiercely disputed by the government.

"There are plenty of places for daytime, and for night-time shelter," says Ferenc Kumin, a spokesman for the right-wing government of Prime Minister Viktor Orban.

"We believe that [they are] almost 100% covered."

The question is becoming especially acute as an Indian summer turns into the first cold days of autumn.
New hostels

The new law is actually an amendment to a 2012 law on "misdemeanours", which came into force but was then struck down by the Constitutional Court, only to be embedded in an amendment to the constitution passed in March this year.

The Fidesz party came to power on a tough "law and order" ticket, and some local Fidesz mayors in the capital have led the way in proposing a crackdown on the homeless.

The government has introduced a number of measures, from new hostels to a "heated streets" project, designed for the drunk and mentally disturbed who might not get a place in a normal shelter. There are also some places for couples and those with children.

But the demonstrators complain that most hostels offer little privacy, and take them away from the survival networks they build up in certain parts of the city - people who regularly bring them food, or money.

"I live in a tent in the outskirts. All I ask, from this or any government, is the chance to live decently," said Betti Fetter, 50, who has lived on the streets of Budapest for 23 years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 01, 2013, 12:11:06 PM
Clean teh streets!!!111
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2013, 04:26:33 AM
I saw this on Hungarian public opinion, made me think of this thread :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaPXleLCEAAdWNp.png:large)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 05:21:32 PM
Jew lovers.  :glare:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 04, 2013, 07:59:25 PM
It's disconcerting that so many Hungarians would accept Chinese spies into their midst.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2014, 10:45:20 AM
Two important happenings today!


1) I don`t want to spend too much time with describing the history of the opposition in recent years, but let me try to summarize. Note the characters, so you can keep track:

-2004-2009, 2006 election winner Socialist PM Gyurcsany is Evil Incarnate according to most people. After a brief power struggle after 2010, he is quite happy to leave the Socialist Party and form his own with some other Socialist MPs joining him
-after this, president of the Socialist party, young nobody Mesterhazy is safe in his power. Socialist Party (strongest opposition party) continues to survive on a loyalist electorate

-most people refuse to vote on either FIDESZ or Socialists. Two popular movements start to form in 2011 and 2012. New and inexperienced, but they seemed to gain traction, on a largely moderate left platform. Worth noting that only mass support to them comes in cases where the government cuts silly overspending, like ridicoulous police and fireman pension amounts.

-October 23 2012, these two new formations sort of unite, and got lead by Bajnai, PM of 2009-2010. He is an established successful businessman, and was basically a successful technocrat PM as well, but he had no other task then to keep to IMF regulations we had in exchange of saving us from bankruptcy. At any rate, in front of about 100k people, he declares a program of uniting everyone near the middle, left or right, to save Hungarian democracy. He vows to talk to all opposition parties, to form a common platform by 2014, since FIDESZ has changed the election law, seriously bending the table in their own favour. It is cooperation or defeat for others.
Much rejoicing.

-Intense character-killing campaign against Bajnai begins basically immediately by FIDESZ (sponsored by state money and aided by the state TVs of course), mostly by trying to make the "Bajnia=Gyurcsany puppet" argument

-Bajnai offers negotiations to LMP, the greens, only opposition party in Parlaiment beside MSZP, Gyurcsany`s, and neo-Nazi Jobbik. This causes a MAJOR divide within LMP. The bigger half of the party wants to go at the elections alone, the rest sees that it is impossible and serves only Orban. The latter quit LMP and join Bajnai. Worth noting that IIRC the leader of LMP, Schiffer, was at one time, an Orban protégée of sorts.

-After the meltdown with LMP, Bajnai is quickly out of options, and his total lack of charisma and force of character becomes apparent. Due to lack of any other viable options other than throwing in the towel, he starts negotiations with the Socialists. His formation`s popularity plummets in the polls.

-Much of 2013 is spent with Bajnai and Mesterhazy (remember him? the prez of the Socialist party) arguing over who should be Prime Minister candidate for their alliance which hadn't been made at the time. It is a grossly hideous affair, with the two formations biting at each other`s throats for spoils they are pretty far from having any chance of winning, since according to polls, FIDESZ has a comfortable lead

-They make a weird half-assed deal in mid-2013, name of PM candidate undecided. Bajnai`s formation continues its slide to oblivion, while Gyurcsany, BY FAR the most talented and charismatic politican of the lot, reactivates himself and starts campaigning heavily. Result? His party overtakes Bajnai`s by late last year in the polls.

-Bajnai facing potential disaster, and the Socialists smelling blood, and danger at the same time, they make a new deal, and draw in Gyurcsany as well.

Their final deal has just been made. Basically it is Bajnai`s almost unconditional surrender. His formation gives up a lot of districts to Gyurcsany`s party, while the Socialists do so with none. Socialist prez Mesterhazy is the PM candidate (why not? He has not done anything in his life apart from being dragged from a box to be the party`s face for the 2010 beating they were sure to have). For bonus, Eternal Political Survival Worm, social-liberal Gabor Fodor is also taken in to the deal for some reason, with his recently formed "Liberal Party", which is so unpopular and unexisting, that it fails to register in polls.

So at the end, Bajnai`s movement to rid the left of the dinosaurs who has plagued it since a decade has been chewed up and eaten by said dinosaurs. FIDESZ`s victory in such a setup is assured.

2) Orban went to Moscow suddenly today, and signed a GENORMOUS deal with Putin and Russian nuclear building company Roszatom to double the size of the Hungarian nuclear plant. Expanding the plant is a good idea, but it is the biggest ever investment in Hungarian history, entirely funded by a massive loan given by Roszatom. The entire deal, although not unexpected, was closed in quite the secrecy, so as of this moment it is uncertain just how much of a Russian vassal we have become.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 14, 2014, 12:02:02 PM
:w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2014, 12:24:43 PM
The deal with the Russians also mentions the imminent signing of a new contract on our Russian gas purchases, so odds are that Putin is buying Hungary in exchange of letting Orban continue campaigning with decreasing utility fees (central, as in fact, only, element of their election campaign as of yet), Ukraine-style.

Also in the deal Hungary has renewed it`s commitment to uphold the 2008 deal regarding the Russian gas pipe project, Southern Stream or something like that. The 2008 deal, by the way, was very heavily attacked by Orban at the time (he was the opposition`s leader), terming it a "coup" and a "sellout" of Hungary to Russia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 14, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Well you ARE part of the Eastern Bloc. So it makes sense that you are ruled from Moscow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2014, 12:42:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 14, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Well you ARE part of the Eastern Bloc. So it makes sense that you are ruled from Moscow.

I will not be, if I can do anything about it. Screw that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
not too long ago, the government has decided on forming a kind of historical institute dedicated to researching and maintaining a "proper historical picture" about our nation`s history.

The freshly appointed leader of this new institution had some views to share, in order to explain what their job is:

in his opinion it is important to declare things like:

-white terror in the 1920s was a reaction to something, and had only a few hundred victims instead of the thousands claimed

-the members of the communist party in Hungary in the 1920-40s were member of the international communist organization, as such they were foreign spies and so their treatment (prison, execution, white terroring etc), was legal and prudent

-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

:wacko:

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Agelastus on January 17, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

I must be missing something here; that's the standard western narrative of Hungary during the Holocaust - that Horthy refused to allow Jewish deportations until Germany's military occupation of Hungary so that the vast majority of Hungary's jews were still alive in the Spring of 1944.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2014, 05:13:42 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on January 17, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

I must be missing something here; that's the standard western narrative of Hungary during the Holocaust - that Horthy refused to allow Jewish deportations until Germany's military occupation of Hungary so that the vast majority of Hungary's jews were still alive in the Spring of 1944.

Well, that referenced 1941 incident was an exception to that, and the scandal (well, nobody cared, so there wasn`t any) was that this guy referenced the deportation of Hungarian citizens as an issue related to alien law. Ergo in his mind Jewish Hungarians are not Hungarians.

At any rate, there had been "jew laws" in effect from either the late 20s or mid 30s, I cannot remember, highly discriminating them in all areas of life.
"Labour Duty" units made of jews and political prisoners were constant accompaniers of the army units since `41 as I recall, used for various tasks, from building stuff, digging trenches, and clearing minefields.

So painting the Horthy era as some Jewish sanctum is quite overstretching it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 20, 2014, 12:44:19 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on January 17, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

I must be missing something here; that's the standard western narrative of Hungary during the Holocaust - that Horthy refused to allow Jewish deportations until Germany's military occupation of Hungary so that the vast majority of Hungary's jews were still alive in the Spring of 1944.

While true, my standard western narrative mentioned thousands of Jews dying from forced labor under Horthy's regime.

Granted compared to the Nazis they seem soft and cuddly but on an absolute sense enslaving and working people to death is not exactly admirable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:00:41 PM
The Austrian agricultural minister is pissed off. Hungary wants to introduce new legislation that will make it very difficult for foreigners to buy agricultural land in Hungary (- IIRC, if agricultural land goes up for sale, the first right of purchase is for other local Hungarian) farmers, then local communes, then the state, then (theoretically) foreigners.

Under certain rules, foreigners who bought/leased land between 1994 and 2001 could lose the rights to it. There are 200 Austrian farmers who have the rights to 200k hectare land in Hungary, obtained after 1994. During the time (Tamas, correct me if wrong) Hungary was looking for foreign investors to boost the agricultural output.

The Austrian minister wants to discuss the issue with his Hungarian colleague, but he keeps brushing him off. "It's a Hungarian matter, that will be dealt with by Hungary." Besides, he doesn't want to talk to someone who keeps insulting Hungary (the minister has been in office for a few weeks only, and I could find nothing about the supposed "insults".)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 20, 2014, 04:07:21 PM
Austria should send a corps into Hungary to protect the interests of Austrian citizens.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:09:17 PM
The thing is that the Hungarian government that a lot of the contracts were designed to get around the "don't sell to foreigners" clause in the laws - by granting a life long lease with up front payment.

However, the Hungarian constitutional court has ruled them legal (or so Austrian media say).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 20, 2014, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:09:17 PM

However, the Hungarian constitutional court has ruled them legal

Which means they are worse than Hitler.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on January 20, 2014, 04:38:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 20, 2014, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:09:17 PM

However, the Hungarian constitutional court has ruled them legal

Which means they are worse than Hitler.

Is The Brain paving the way for a Habsburg-led Austrian Anschluss with Hungary ?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 04, 2014, 05:37:52 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnonprophet.blog.hu%2Fmedia%2Fpostimage%2Fvtyaqkp_1362293848.jpg&hash=60bba1b4eace4f05a1a48e3590b526e5c4af7110)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
 :rolleyes:



Meanwhile, Parliament will vote on the massive agreement with Russia on building our new nucular power plant. The details of the financial analysis of the deal have been made state secret for 10 years, so the MPs can`t actually know what they are agreeing to, but of course they will agree to it none the less.

The actual bill that takes care of this basically hints at a blank cheque handed to Putin - we will commit ourselves while declaredly having no established terms on the insane loan granted by Russia, or the price of the power plant. One of the "big things" about the deal was that the Russians would also take care of the nuclear waste, well it turns out they will storage it for 20 years but according to the wording of the  bill, they will be able to just ship it back to us after that and we will have to take it back.
Also, a "Russian Selected Comity" whatever that means, will need to agree to the price of the electricity sold by the power plant.

In other words, Orban is bending down for the soap for Putin and the public has no idea whatsoever on why exactly.

My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.
Hungary can into time travel?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 04, 2014, 09:03:51 AM
But only backwards.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 09:07:51 AM
:D I keep thinking its 2004. I meant 2020, obviously
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 04, 2014, 09:46:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.

We will all remember this time as the era Hungary almost joined the Western world.  Will this mean he can close his borders and stop Tamas from trying to leave the country?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 09:54:52 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 04, 2014, 09:46:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.
Will this mean he can close his borders and stop Tamas from trying to leave the country?

Too late for that, unless he closes them while I happen to be back visiting my family  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
Previous Minister of Finance, and current prez of the Central Bank, Gyorgy Matolcsy is quite the character, his ineptitude and total cluelessness has been known, but two particular new details about it have been made public by the just-released book written by his former cabinet chief.

The lady spent 355 pages praising the genius of this man. He also spotted the genius in two particular things:

-Matolcsy probably actually believes in the global conspiracy theory against Hungary. He has read about it from a popular pulp fiction novel released in 2011. He was so enticed by the revelations in the book that he read it in one night and then forwarded the relevant evidences to PM Orban

-In 2011 there was a time where Hungary could not sell bonds to save the country's life, and the collapse of the currency was imminent. Matolcsy, still Finance Minister, secretly started negotiation with the IMF on calling them back to the country. It was to be announced publicly a couple of days later
But, on the very same day, he had a formal lunch with two representatives from Goldman Sachs.
The writer delightfully writes, that Matolcsy casually mentioned to the GS reps that he has just signalled the IMF for help (which was surely to make Hungary avoid imminent bankruptcy). "the forks stopped in the hands of the Goldman Sachs people" and they excused themselves to leave for the restroom.

Actually Matolcsy interpreted this as the shock and awe and fear of the international conspirators, having been exposed to his genius.  :lol: Needless to say probably the guys were on the phone to buy Hungarian currency. And yes, two days later there was a significant raise in the EUR HUF exchange rate after the IMF deal went public.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 12, 2014, 03:41:01 PM
There is no global conspiracy against Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 12, 2014, 03:45:46 PM
I guess it's not insider trading when you get the information from a head of state?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2014, 03:19:28 AM
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304157204579471531530313704

QuoteHungary's Controversial Leader Rallies Support Before Election

PM Viktor Orban Expected to Win Another Term Next Weekend

BUDAPEST—A week before parliamentary elections, Hungary's controversial leader defended his track record saying the country became "a racing car" under his leadership of four years.

Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who is expected to win another term next weekend, during his tenure implemented measures that had frequently put him on a collision course with the European Union and drawn Hungary closer to Russia.

After winning the 2010 elections in a landslide, Mr. Orban's government has introduced sweeping changes, giving the country a new constitution, Civil Code and election law.

To avoid potentially unpopular fiscal austerity measures, Hungary levied special taxes on some sectors of the economy dominated by foreign firms and raised taxes on banks to the highest level in the European Union. Mr. Orban parted with the International Monetary Fund soon after his election victory due to a difference in economic preferences.

According to the latest polls, Mr. Orban's center-right Fidesz party will likely be supported by 38%-40% of voters, with 15%-19% backing an alliance of major leftist opposition parties and 12%-16% supporting the far-right Jobbik party.

Fidesz has turned Hungary into "a fast and daring racing car from an old banger with a punctured wheel," said Mr. Orban, whom political analysts often term as populist.

Fidesz has "expanded equitable burden-sharing onto banks and multinational companies,...and has successfully fought with the Goliaths of the financial world," Mr. Orban told a cheering crowd in Budapest's Heroes' Square.

At this same spot in 1989, Mr. Orban demanded that Russian troops stationing in Hungary return home in a speech that propelled him onto the political scene .

Mr. Orban added Fidesz had "freed Hungary from the helping embrace of the International Monetary Fund, returned the country to its Christian roots, and united the nation scattered around the world."

Speaking at a rally of 450,000 supporters, according to the Interior Ministry, Mr. Orban asked voters this weekend to grant him four more years at the country's helm.

The Hungarian leader was expected to win the election in 2002 and Fidesz won the first round of voting. But the party lost the election in the final round to its biggest opposition, the Socialists.

The second round of voting has since been eliminated through Fidesz's recent revamp of election law.

Should it win the election next weekend, Fidesz has said it would maintain its high taxes on certain firms and get at least half of the country's bank sector, dominated by foreign firms, back in Hungarian hands. It has cut utility prices for households at the cost of the privately-owned suppliers and wants to reduce them for companies as well. It has been renationalizing energy companies and plans to make the utilities sector nonprofit.

At a rally of 50,000 supporters in downtown Budapest on Sunday, a coalition of the biggest leftist opposition parties called upon their supporters and the large number of those who are yet undecided to vote for them.

Should they win, they said they will reestablish checks and balances, promote press freedom, strengthen ties with the European Union, establish new jobs and attract foreign direct investment for economic growth, the coalition's leaders pledged.

"We will bring back the Hungarian Republic," said Attila Mesterházy, head of the Socialist party and the prime ministerial candidate of the election coalition, referring to the Fidesz government's change of the name of the country to Hungary from the Hungarian Republic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Hey, If they get throw out of the EU does that mean Tamas has to go back where he came from?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 01, 2014, 09:23:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Hey, If they get throw out of the EU does that mean Tamas has to go back where he came from?

They get tossed and thousands of Hungarians lose their jobs throughout Europe and are forced to return to Hungary all at the same time.  I bet that wouldn't be ugly at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 01, 2014, 09:26:04 AM
Hey, wasn't that a Larry Bond novel? Cauldron?

France tosses the foreigners out and starts shit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Agelastus on April 01, 2014, 10:23:00 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 01, 2014, 09:26:04 AM
Hey, wasn't that a Larry Bond novel? Cauldron?

France tosses the foreigners out and starts shit.

Yep; an example in fiction of the "Let's invade Poland" option as a solution to Europe's problems.

Doesn't work in fiction any better than it does in real life.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 01, 2014, 09:26:04 AM
Hey, wasn't that a Larry Bond novel? Cauldron?

France tosses the foreigners out and starts shit.

Oh God, I have that book.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2014, 10:34:34 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2014, 09:23:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Hey, If they get throw out of the EU does that mean Tamas has to go back where he came from?

They get tossed and thousands of Hungarians lose their jobs throughout Europe and are forced to return to Hungary all at the same time.  I bet that wouldn't be ugly at all.

try hundreds of thousands.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2014, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

we invade your basement instead.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
It's funny, a large part of the Austrian coverage focuses on ZOMG Jobbik Nazis on the rise.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2014, 12:21:17 PM
Quote from: Syt on April 01, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
It's funny, a large part of the Austrian coverage focuses on ZOMG Jobbik Nazis on the rise.

Are they worried Hungary will catch up to them? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

That's a dick thing to say, even by your standards.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

That's a dick thing to say, even by your standards.

:rolleyes:  I think Tamas knows I don't actually want him deported.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

That's a dick thing to say, even by your standards.

:rolleyes:  I think Tamas knows I don't actually want him deported.

He does now :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2014, 06:48:39 AM
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/04/business/international/the-village-stadium-a-symbol-of-power-for-hungarys-premier.html
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
Your tax forints at work Tamas  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2014, 09:21:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
Your tax forints at work Tamas  :P

Yes. Not mine anymore though. :P

But it is so ridiculous: the stadium will have a capacity twice of the village's entire population, and it is literally in the backyard of the PM's house.

He should have at least built a pyramid then Hungary could have some extra tourist income.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 04, 2014, 09:22:22 AM
A beet pyramid.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 04, 2014, 09:26:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 04, 2014, 09:22:22 AM
A beet pyramid.

't would be unbeetable
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2014, 09:21:32 AM
Yes. Not mine anymore though. :P

You don't pay taxes on money earned abroad?  How un-American.

QuoteBut it is so ridiculous: the stadium will have a capacity twice of the village's entire population, and it is literally in the backyard of the PM's house.

He should have at least built a pyramid then Hungary could have some extra tourist income.

Remember when the Bosians were claiming they found pyramids when there was absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that and it was reported  everywhere as a genuine discovery?  You don't have to actually build them.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 05, 2014, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
You don't pay taxes on money earned abroad?  How un-American.
America's the only country in the world that does that (though I read the situation with the PRC and Eritrea's a bit confused and they might do it in theory).

QuoteRemember when the Bosians were claiming they found pyramids when there was absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that and it was reported  everywhere as a genuine discovery?  You don't have to actually build them.
The mad thing is the Bosnians still claim they are pyramids. They're still taking school trips there to learn about Bosnian heritage and pushing them as a tourist attraction :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 06, 2014, 06:16:05 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 05, 2014, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
You don't pay taxes on money earned abroad?  How un-American.
America's the only country in the world that does that (though I read the situation with the PRC and Eritrea's a bit confused and they might do it in theory).

QuoteRemember when the Bosians were claiming they found pyramids when there was absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that and it was reported  everywhere as a genuine discovery?  You don't have to actually build them.
The mad thing is the Bosnians still claim they are pyramids. They're still taking school trips there to learn about Bosnian heritage and pushing them as a tourist attraction :lol:

But... but... they were featured in Ancient Aliens! That must mean they are REAL (and were built by aliens).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 07, 2014, 12:31:31 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26908404

QuoteHungary election: PM Viktor Orban declares victory

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has declared victory in Sunday's parliamentary election, winning a second consecutive term.

His centre-right Fidesz has polled 45%, with most of the votes counted.

A centre-left opposition alliance is trailing with 25%, while the far-right Jobbik party is credited with 21%.

The Hungarian left has never fully recovered from its heavy defeat in the 2010 ballot, in which Mr Orban swept to power with a two-thirds majority.

Sunday's election has been mainly fought over the state of the economy, correspondents say.

'We won'
"No doubt we have won," Mr Orban told supporters gathered in the capital, Budapest, late on Sunday evening.

"This was not just any odd victory. We have scored such a comprehensive victory, the significance of which we cannot yet fully grasp tonight."

He said the election results showed that Hungarians wanted to stay in the European Union, but with a strong national government.

"I'm going to work every day so that Hungary will be a wonderful place," he declared.

Fidesz is predicted to win around 135 of the 199 seats in parliament.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F74068000%2Fjpg%2F_74068283_74066635.jpg&hash=5d01dce736a60aa871b164e86ae38b7a60ca4cfd)
About 5m Hungarian voters cast ballots in the elections

It now also seems likely that Jobbik will become the second-largest party in parliament, the BBC's Nick Thorpe reports from Budapest.

Although the Socialist-led opposition is in second place, the five parties making up the alliance plan to form their own factions after the elections, our correspondent says.

Observers say Jobbik's adoption of a softer image has paid dividends, as a recent opinion poll found leader Gabor Vona to be the most popular opposition politician.

Fidesz supporters say Mr Orban's victory is a tribute to his leadership powers. But opposition parties have accused the prime minister throughout their campaign of undermining Hungarian democracy.

They have also accused Mr Orban of curtailing civil liberties and harming free speech.

Fidesz has insisted that reform was needed to complete the work of eradicating the legacy of Communism from the country, and reduce the budget deficit to below the EU's required 3% of gross domestic product.

Mr Orban's populist and Eurosceptic approach has proven popular with many Hungarians.

"The left had eight years to show what they can do, and they showed us all right," he told Hungarian media on Saturday.

"Why on Earth should we believe that the same people and the same parties would not do the same if given another opportunity?"

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on April 07, 2014, 01:00:32 AM
Traditional Hungarian voting attire?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 04:28:46 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 07, 2014, 01:00:32 AM
Traditional Hungarian voting attire?

That's the photo getting into the word press and I bet those were the only two people in the country to go full retard for the voting.

FIDESZ's 2/3rd majority still hangs in the balance, depends on how two very closely tied (still counting) seats end up.

Russia Today declared Jobbik (the Nazi party) to be the biggest winner of the election, which is quite a stretch as they went well below of their own expectations (although they did get 100 000 new voters), and their leadership acted like they were on a funeral last night. Another proof that Jobbik is a Russian mole.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Theory: the more a country enjoys 'traditional dress' the more likely it is to have a vibrant fascist party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 07, 2014, 05:37:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Theory: the more a country enjoys 'traditional dress' the more likely it is to have a vibrant fascist party.

Bayern? Although fascism was big there in the 30s, I hear.

Still, love for traditional dress = nationalism that's strong enough to bypass ridicule, so there is some basis for your theory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: celedhring on April 07, 2014, 05:37:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Theory: the more a country enjoys 'traditional dress' the more likely it is to have a vibrant fascist party.

Bayern? Although fascism was big there in the 30s, I hear.

Still, love for traditional dress = nationalism that's strong enough to bypass any sense of ridicule, so there is some basis for your theory.

My non-Bavarian German acquaintances living in Bavaria mentioned how they were treated as outsider shits everywhere outside of Munich, so I think Sheilbh's point stands, in effect.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 07, 2014, 05:43:20 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi4.mirror.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle677555.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fs615b%2FHitler%2520looking%2520faintly%2520ridiculous%2520in%2520lederhosen%2520%26amp%3B%2520long%2520socks-677555&hash=f58b4c6ee14c8a427f4e9be607fb9023ecb8e975)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 07, 2014, 08:03:58 AM
Nice socks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 08:32:29 AM
I like the shirt tucked into the underwear.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Gups on April 07, 2014, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

Video killed the radio star.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

That was the joke in Germany at the time.  Aryan type: blond like Hitler, slender like Goering and tall like Goebbels.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ancient Demon on April 07, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

I don't know, without the silly moustache he'd be reasonably good looking.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on April 07, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

I don't know, without the silly moustache he'd be reasonably good looking.
He's no Stalin:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2F10%2F13%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F13lede_stalin.190.jpg&hash=419a031c0cabfc0fdca2665fb85b8dcaee84e8d0)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 02, 2014, 04:05:04 AM
Development of the ten countries that joined the EU in 2004. Hungary is now the poorest of the lot.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Foriginal-size%2Fimages%2F2014%2F05%2Fblogs%2Fgraphic-detail%2F20140503_gdc831.png&hash=86e0f0f8ec6e62384d14f1ee4d4270261f5d139e)

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 12, 2014, 07:23:32 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/10/us-hungary-orban-idUSBREA4904X20140510

QuotePM Orban calls for autonomy for ethnic Hungarians beyond borders

(Reuters) - Hungary will stand up for its rights within the European Union and wants autonomy for ethnic Hungarians living beyond its borders in central Europe, including Ukraine, Prime Minister Viktor Orban said on Saturday.

Orban, who was formally endorsed by parliament as prime minister for a second consecutive term after last month's landslide election win, said ethnic Hungarians supported his policies to unite the nation "above the borders".

His previous government granted ethnic Hungarians in neighboring countries citizenship shortly after it took office in 2010, as part of his efforts to restore a battered sense of national pride.

Orban, a 50-year-old former dissident against Communist rule, has also clashed repeatedly with the European Union over his go-it-alone policies in the past four years.

"We regard the Hungarian issue a European issue," Orban said in his first speech to parliament since his reelection.

"Hungarians living in the Carpathian basin are entitled to have dual citizenship, are entitled to community rights, and also autonomy."

Many Hungarians today view the 1920 Treaty of Trianon as a national tragedy because it took away two-thirds of the country's territory and left millions of ethnic Hungarians living in what are now Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine and Serbia.

Orban has won popularity at home by reaching out to Hungarians outside the country's borders who were allowed to vote in the national election for the first time in April.

He has never suggested reuniting the lost territories with Hungary, but his activities have irked governments in some neighboring countries.

He said on Saturday the issue of ethnic Hungarians was especially topical due to the situation in neighboring Ukraine, where around 200,000 ethnic Hungarians live, who are entitled to Hungarian citizenship and also the right to self-administration.

"This is our clear expectation from the new Ukraine which is taking shape now," Orban said, adding the new administration enjoyed Hungary's support in its efforts to build a democratic Ukraine.

BRAVE THINKING

Orban pledged to continue the policies of his previous government and said these would be based on "open dialogue and brave thinking" when it comes to European affairs.

He said Hungary was and remained, beyond doubt, part of NATO and also the EU and his government regarded any program that called for an exit from the EU a dangerous extremity.

"But we are members of these alliances and not hostages," he said. "We want a Europe that respects its own roots, respects Christianity and also gives due respect to individual nations."

His words echoed his ruling Fidesz party's campaign ahead of European parliament elections later this month, with billboards featuring Orban's photo and saying: "Our message to Brussels: More respect to Hungarians."

Orban called for a radical cut in energy prices in the EU to improve competitiveness and said his government rejected policies that support immigration.

"We do not want policies that support immigration and masses of immigrants who cause unmanageable tensions, but we want support for families to have more children," he added.

(Reporting by Krisztina Than; Editing by Sophie Hares)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on May 12, 2014, 07:32:18 AM
That sounds kinda Putin lite.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 12, 2014, 09:05:03 AM
Great, Toledo is gonna get invaded. Packo's will be behind an iron curtain of stolen hubcaps, overturned wagons and bags of beets.

:(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2014, 11:50:09 AM
A Hungarian correspondent in Donetsk wrote that Ukrainians just have been made aware of Orban's quoted comments on "fighting for autonomy". He says that his (the correspondent's) status as revered symbol of the free world's attention has instantly changed to suspicious enemy and he had to spend a lot of effort explaining that he and a good portion of Hungarians are not, in fact, aiming to redraw borders by "fighting".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2014, 11:54:20 AM
In the meantime, chairman of the Parliament, (FIDESZ hardliner) decided not to fly the EU flag on the Parliament, since it is not mandatory. But he will fly the flag of Szekelys (a still rock solid Hungarian enclave in the middle of Romania), to show support for autonomy efforts.

Oh, and one of his deputies is a Jobbik guy, who happens to be an ex-skinhead (the east European hard core neonazi kind)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 19, 2014, 10:06:36 AM
 :lol: An example of where social policy is at in Hungary ATM.

Miskolc is the major eastern city. It is also largely a shithole as I know. Lots and lots of unemployed poor people. Most of them are gypsies, at least the poorest ones.

The city has declared that every unemployed person who agrees to relocate from the city will be given grants to help them.

Next up, one of the nearby smaller cities declared that anyone who moves to them using grants from an other municipality will not be eligible for social aid there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 19, 2014, 12:47:59 PM
A bag of beets to leave! Such a rich bounty.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 01:23:06 PM
Reminds me of Chicago giving bus tickets to people willing  to move to Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895

We have two armored units with 7-7 T72s (plus one command vehicle each). Those in the know claim about 4 tanks in each unit is fit for action.

We had a bunch of Hinds but we decided we don't need them anymore.

Plus a few Grippens which barely fly as it is too expensive, although they do NATO patrols over Hungary and Slovenia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2014, 05:56:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895


That soldier to officer ratio is some Land of Oz level bullshit  :lmfao:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 21, 2014, 06:10:11 AM
Austria is also cutting down its military expenses to the point where they run into trouble keeping their gear in usable shape, but they are still a bit away from such levels. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on May 21, 2014, 06:11:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2014, 05:56:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895


That soldier to officer ratio is some Land of Oz level bullshit  :lmfao:

Maybe they ended conscription, but then found they could only afford to employ small numbers of enlisted? I don't know just guessing.

Or would you rather they follow the US example and ramp up military spending and pay for it on the 'never, never' ?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 07:38:20 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2014, 06:11:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2014, 05:56:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895


That soldier to officer ratio is some Land of Oz level bullshit  :lmfao:

Maybe they ended conscription, but then found they could only afford to employ small numbers of enlisted? I don't know just guessing.

Or would you rather they follow the US example and ramp up military spending and pay for it on the 'never, never' ?

China is paying for it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on May 21, 2014, 07:45:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.

Have you considered a new career as a Hungarian diplomat?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 03:47:05 AM
Orban and his followers keep telling that the West is in steep decline (according to the succession of official people in Hungary, it has been in steep decline in the last 60 years), but gotta' say these before-after pics of Hungarian EU MPs suggest otherwise:
http://index.hu/kulfold/2014/05/23/mit_csinal_az_emberbol_5_ev_hanyatlo_nyugat/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on May 23, 2014, 09:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.

If Hungary really had some looming threat that created a need for a military, it wouldn't necessarily be a silly situation. Have a large officer corps with a skeleton staff, and that way when the military is needed the conscripts can be quickly replaced and you then have a massive army very quickly led by experienced professional officers.

Probably better than our system of just keeping a massive military of all ranks, and then looking for places to use it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 23, 2014, 09:04:45 AM
Like invading Romania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 23, 2014, 09:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.

If Hungary really had some looming threat that created a need for a military, it wouldn't necessarily be a silly situation. Have a large officer corps with a skeleton staff, and that way when the military is needed the conscripts can be quickly replaced and you then have a massive army very quickly led by experienced professional officers.

Probably better than our system of just keeping a massive military of all ranks, and then looking for places to use it.

I have doubts about the actual ability of most of those 100% idle officers. We have a few hundred men around the world in various missions including Afghanistan, and they seem to be doing a good job, but that's just a tiny minority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 26, 2014, 07:02:37 PM
http://derstandard.at/2000002352600/Ungarische-RechtsextremeFPOe-und-FN-sind-zionistische-Parteien (http://derstandard.at/2000002352600/Ungarische-RechtsextremeFPOe-und-FN-sind-zionistische-Parteien)

QuoteRechtsextreme Jobbik: FPÖ und FN sind "zionistische Parteien"

No need for extensive German skills for this one. FN and FPÖ are "zionist parties" (pro-israeli) according to the Hungarian extreme-right wing party Jobbik. Guess that settles the debate I had with Tamas about comparing Jobbik to FN. :)

PS : Before you go all Dieudonné/Soral/quenelle on me, I really don't think Jobbik meant pro-zionist in the sense of being extreme-right wing à la Liberman or even hard-Likud, Netanyahu and stuff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on June 27, 2014, 07:23:37 AM
So I assume re-establishment of Austria-Hungary is not on the cards?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2014, 08:24:15 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 26, 2014, 07:02:37 PM
PS : Before you go all Dieudonné/Soral/quenelle no me, I really don't think Jobbik meant pro-zionist in the sense of being extreme-right wing à la Liberman or even hard-Likud, Netanyahu and stuff.

Since when did anti-Semitism have anything to do with the faults of actual Jews?  I mean I am beyond exasperated with the idiocy of the religious Zionist nutcases in Israel but my God if I say anything besides they are the worst people in the world nutters freak out.  They are far from the worst people in their geographic region much less in the world.  I would rather live next to settlers under Israeli occupation than live in a lot of places in the Middle East.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 27, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
Hungarian far-rightism is a direct descendant of the WW2 era far-rightism due to various reasons, chief among them is that Hungary hasn't had muslim immigration en masse (next to nothing, really). So nothing triggering a "enemy of my enemy is a friend" stance for Israel/the jews.

But these parties are similar and play the same role in their respective countries. Just because they disagree on some of the targets of their idiocy, is hardly a proof against that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 27, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 27, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
Hungarian far-rightism is a direct descendant of the WW2 era far-rightism due to various reasons, chief among them is that Hungary hasn't had muslim immigration en masse (next to nothing, really). So nothing triggering a "enemy of my enemy is a friend" stance for Israel/the jews.

But these parties are similar and play the same role in their respective countries. Just because they disagree on some of the targets of their idiocy, is hardly a proof against that.

By this criterion, then they are still different since the FN role is to weaken the right-wing vote (Mitterrand manoeuvre) though it backfired recently. Besides, Jews/"Zionists" are hardly a mere detail in the French extreme right-wing descending from WWII. The extreme-right wing sourced from the Algerian war, perhaps.

As for the FPÖ being "zionist"  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2014, 08:51:33 AM
The French Extreme Right Wing descends from Boulangism, the anti-Dreyfusards, and l'Action française.  Though I guess the later two are pretty much the same thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2014, 08:53:06 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 27, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
As for the FPÖ being "zionist"  :lol:

Their goal is the creation and maintenance of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East?  For such a goal pretty much achieved over 60 years ago it is amazing how many are still devoted to this cause.

I, personally, am an advocate for the creation of an internal combustion engine.  I have a huge international conspiracy to help me achieve this goal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
Hey Tamas, it seems that you made the right choice leaving Hungary.

QuoteOrban Says He Seeks to End Liberal Democracy in Hungary

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said he wants to abandon liberal democracy in favor of an "illiberal state," citing Russia and Turkey as examples.

The global financial crisis in 2008 showed that "liberal democratic states can't remain globally competitive," Orban said on July 26 at a retreat of ethnic Hungarian leaders in Baile Tusnad, Romania.

"I don't think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations," Orban said, according to the video of his speech on the government's website. He listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of "successful" nations, "none of which is liberal and some of which aren't even democracies."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 06:02:56 AM
yep
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 29, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Hungary. :mmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 06:14:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Hungary. :mmm:

It will be like Russia, except EU citizens can visit it without a visa!


For now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 06:27:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
He listed Russia, Turkey [...] as examples of "successful" nations

Good use of quotation marks. Nice way to aim low, too, in the potential vs. results department.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Norgy on July 29, 2014, 07:36:44 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
Hey Tamas, it seems that you made the right choice leaving Hungary.

QuoteOrban Says He Seeks to End Liberal Democracy in Hungary

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said he wants to abandon liberal democracy in favor of an "illiberal state," citing Russia and Turkey as examples.

The global financial crisis in 2008 showed that "liberal democratic states can't remain globally competitive," Orban said on July 26 at a retreat of ethnic Hungarian leaders in Baile Tusnad, Romania.

"I don't think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations," Orban said, according to the video of his speech on the government's website. He listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of "successful" nations, "none of which is liberal and some of which aren't even democracies."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html)

It's like Orban's just had a bukkake party with Putin, Erdogan and Xi Yinping.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 07:51:39 AM
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/29/5946115/hungarys-prime-minister-thinks-its-time-to-ditch-liberal-democracy
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Norgy on July 29, 2014, 07:57:45 AM
I'm sure he'll get the other, non-liberal brand instead, Tamas.  :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 08:01:29 AM
Quote from: Norgy on July 29, 2014, 07:57:45 AM
I'm sure he'll get the other, non-liberal brand instead, Tamas.  :hug:

The (struggling and dying) opposition is trying to make a big deal out of this quotes of course, and the online world is in upheaval over it, but by and large the population seems utterly content/resigned to the fact that the democratically elected Prime Minister declares that he wants to ditch democracy.

Oh wait, no, the green party's leader, who always poses as the fresh modern alternative on the left, kind of agreed with him.
Then again he had some blurry ties to Orban's party before he rose out of nothingness to form this green party, and was instrumental in torpedoing any kind of across-the-board opposition alliance against Orban in this year's election, so maybe that is not so surprising.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
QuoteHe listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of “successful” nations, “none of which is liberal and some of which aren’t even democracies.”

Three of the more corrupt nations in the world.  I guess he knows how to take care of his peeps anyway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 12:30:39 PM
As a fun aside, the Turkish deputy PM suggested that women shouldn't be laughing in public, for it's immodest, and makes them less virtuous. Also, they shouldn't show their attractiveness. Instead they should read the Quran. And the guys, too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 08:01:29 AM
Oh wait, no, the green party's leader, who always poses as the fresh modern alternative on the left, kind of agreed with him.
Then again he had some blurry ties to Orban's party before he rose out of nothingness to form this green party, and was instrumental in torpedoing any kind of across-the-board opposition alliance against Orban in this year's election, so maybe that is not so surprising.

Interesting.  The "sham party" thing is an old east bloc trick. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
It is amazing to me to see the Hungarians embracing the Russians.  I mean how much murder and oppression can those people take before they figure out that the Russians maybe are not their friends?  'Screw you Poland and the rest of you supposed 'friends' of ours.  We know a nation who has always been eager to save Hungary from liberalism.  Russia.  They did it in 1849 and they can do it again.'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on July 29, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
And Angela Merkel is still in the EPP as a political ally of Orban. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 29, 2014, 12:30:39 PM
As a fun aside, the Turkish deputy PM suggested that women shouldn't be laughing in public, for it's immodest, and makes them less virtuous. Also, they shouldn't show their attractiveness. Instead they should read the Quran. And the guys, too.

Ugh.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

Well presumably you should continue to read it. Unless you somehow are gifted enough to understand it fully after one pass. :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on July 29, 2014, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?
There are thousands of hadiths that could read after having finished the Quran.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

I tried to read it a while back but gave up after a few pages.  Maybe it was a rough translation, but it all seemed a bit disjointed and rambling, and failed to keep my attention.  Maybe I should have sought out the equivalent of a children's illustrated bible like what they gave us in Sunday School.  With pretty pictures of The Prophet beating up his 12 year old wives & whatnot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

I tried to read it a while back but gave up after a few pages.  Maybe it was a rough translation, but it all seemed a bit disjointed and rambling, and failed to keep my attention.  Maybe I should have sought out the equivalent of a children's illustrated bible like what they gave us in Sunday School.  With pretty pictures of The Prophet beating up his 12 year old wives & whatnot.

Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 01:45:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

I tried to read it a while back but gave up after a few pages.  Maybe it was a rough translation, but it all seemed a bit disjointed and rambling, and failed to keep my attention.  Maybe I should have sought out the equivalent of a children's illustrated bible like what they gave us in Sunday School.  With pretty pictures of The Prophet beating up his 12 year old wives & whatnot.

I have read that there is an insame amount of literature on people trying to understand what the Quran actually meant to mean. As I understand the real literary meat are the hadiths, which are direct quotes from Mohammed who, in his eternal wisdom, talked about a big bunch of stuff, like how everyday matters should be settled in the society of Egypt several hundred years after his death, and the like.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 01:45:08 PM
I think it used to be a ticket out of jail if you memorized the whole Quran.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:49:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:

I'll admit I was part of the problem.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on July 29, 2014, 01:59:54 PM
From the Paradox forums

Quote from: Herbert West;17793582Yeah:(

The only reason I did not burn my passport is that I dont have any other.

If this guy gets re-election time to kick hungary out of the liberal western organizations of EU and NATO.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
Speaking of NATO, that's always something that gets me about Russian claims that NATO is expanding aggressively into the East: NATO doesn't pressure people into joining, people join voluntarily. Unlike the Russian sphere which involves a fair amount of bullying to do as Moscow says.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 02:06:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:

Could have been the translation.  Verse is notoriously hard to get right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 02:06:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:

Could have been the translation.  Verse is notoriously hard to get right.

The rest of the post helped to indicate where his head was at - so even if that was the case...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 02:08:54 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 29, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
Speaking of NATO, that's always something that gets me about Russian claims that NATO is expanding aggressively into the East: NATO doesn't pressure people into joining, people join voluntarily. Unlike the Russian sphere which involves a fair amount of bullying to do as Moscow says.

Everything Russia says is a lie, and usually one so self-evidently untrue as to be hilarious.  The only sad thing, now as back in the old days, are all the idiots who give it any credence at all.  And man there are a lot.  How stupid can you be?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 29, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 29, 2014, 01:59:54 PM
From the Paradox forums

Quote from: Herbert West;17793582Yeah:(

The only reason I did not burn my passport is that I dont have any other.

If this guy gets re-election time to kick hungary out of the liberal western organizations of EU and NATO.

That does seem to be a compelling reason not to burn the passport.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
The rest of the post helped to indicate where his head was at - so even if that was the case...

Well, someone's all serious today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:59:55 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
The rest of the post helped to indicate where his head was at - so even if that was the case...

Well, someone's all serious today.

Not really.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2014, 04:23:07 AM
Is it normal for a NATO member country to be visited by a high ranked Chinese military officer who does talks with the defense ministry?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 16, 2014, 01:17:02 AM
Oh?

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/745284

QuoteHungary's arms supplies to Kiev violate Budapest's legal obligations - RF Foreign Ministry

MOSCOW, August 16 /ITAR-TASS/. Hungary's arms supplies to Kiev are violating Budapest's legal obligations in conventional arms exports, Russian Foreign Ministry said on Friday.

The comments followed reports in the Hungarian online newspaper Hidfo.Net which claimed the Hungarian Defense Ministry was using an "authorized agency" to deliver armored vehicles, including T-72 tanks, to Ukraine.

The Russian Foreign Ministry noted that arms exports, if such were taking place, were violating the EU common position, which obliges the EU states not to export products capable of causing or aggravating armed conflicts and see that a recipient country observes international humanitarian law.

Arms exports to Ukraine are also breaching the international Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), the Russian Foreign Ministry went on to say. The document forbids arms transfers to parties in conflict if there is a probability that the weapons can be used for committing genocide and crimes against humanity.

"We assume that in the light of Kiev's indisputable and fragrant violations of the rules of applying weapons in internal conflicts any additional comments would be unnecessary," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"We would like to ask our colleagues in the European Union one simple question: what was the purpose of pushing multilateral commitments in control over arms transfers so actively, if they are violating them so cynically?" the Russian Foreign Ministry said in conclusion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:18:59 AM
Uh oh. Trouble in the Putin-dise.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 21, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Hey Tamas, I read recently an interview with a Polish poli sci expert (so: someone who potentially talks out of his ass) and he said that Hungary has whole areas/pockets of abject, "Burma-style" (his expression, not mine) poverty, and that got worse under Orban.

True or false?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 21, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Hey Tamas, I read recently an interview with a Polish poli sci expert (so: someone who potentially talks out of his ass) and he said that Hungary has whole areas/pockets of abject, "Burma-style" (his expression, not mine) poverty, and that got worse under Orban.

True or false?

I am pretty sure its not Burma style but there are seriously poor areas of the country (north-east and east mostly) which are in a horribly hopeless situation compared to an EU country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on August 21, 2014, 10:48:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:18:59 AM
Uh oh. Trouble in the Putin-dise.

Lol, and of course, no mention in that Russian article of the EU rules and laws that Putin is violating? 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2014, 08:47:20 AM
Corruption is on a totally incredible rate.

Orban's previous finance minister, Gyorgy "Hungarians and Japanese are related because their newborns have red spots on their buttocks" Matolcsy has been Central Bank president for a while now.

Central Bank buying all kinds of super-expensive buildings and such has been common since then.

But the latest thing is...

The entire allocation for higher education in the Hungarian budget is about 197 billion forints. Divide by roughly 310 to get it in euros.

Now, apparently, the Central Bank has spent 200 billion forint of its own assets on 5, freshly created "education foundations" meant to educate finance professionals.
Yes, that is more than all the official higher education spending combined.

What makes it even more interesting is that the entire capital of the Central Bank is a bit more than 400 billion. So obviously they didn't spend it from there.

Which means they had to print money just for this purpose. Which means that with this they have increased the total monetary base of the country by 5% without notifying anyone or offering any explanation, except to finance their own extremely shady "foundations".

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 01, 2014, 07:47:26 AM
Brand new students' book (not sure which subject) for 8th grade (13-14 years olds):

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F444.hu%2Fassets%2F10603651_10202881145735338_1765460938321793039_n.jpg&hash=2dd98fcc0516778c30af426831826674f0d54712)


"Write under the picture what you think about where [what kind of settlement, village/town/city] these voters are voting and what social class they belong to!"


:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 01, 2014, 08:04:14 AM
Top left: Fucking hipsters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 01, 2014, 06:28:08 PM
Bottom right, hottie soccer mom.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on September 01, 2014, 06:49:22 PM
Haven't the Russian tanks rolled already?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 03, 2014, 06:00:47 AM
There is a hilariously pathetic contrast between the arrogant sweeping powerplays of the government in internal affairs, and the utter despise they are handled in the foreign arena.

They have been busy doing the "eastern opening" and sucking every bit of juice off Putin's cock, including working on stalling EU actions on the Ukraine business.

As part of this, they have been very vocal and aggressive on any kind of light criticism they get from within the EU, making sure to react immediately with stark words and whatnot (as if anyone cares). Heck, their EU election campaign had the slogan "We demand from Brussels: more respect for Hungarians!" (throwing a tantrum is indeed the surefire way to get some respect for yourself).

However, despite all of this, Hungary has been used by Russia to play up the "EU is helping Ukraine" angle. Using an obscure rightwing website sponsored by Russia (hard to find any other example why a supposedly Hungarian neo-Nazi website deals with almost nothing else than Russian news), they leaked the story of a trainload of Hungarian T-72s making it to Ukraine.

It seems to be false as the private investor buying them has supposedly sent them to the Czech Republic (Czechs do deny this though), but it is hilarious how, after being left out on the sun to rot by the very power they have been busy to bend over backwards, all the Hungarian foreign office has done is a single quiet denial. But when some Swedish nobody utters a single bad word about Orban, they are up in arms yelling.

Sad, so sad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on September 03, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
This is exactly how the Kaczynski administration behaved in 2005-2007 (sans the sucking of Putin's cock, as they are too Russophobic for that). I'm afraid we may have it again next year if they win the general election. Only that I am not sure whose cock they will be sucking.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 11:48:06 AM
The Russian-style, slowly escalating attacks against civil organisations have reached a new chapter today, when a big police action descended upon one of the organisations receiving aid from the state of Norway (the whole casus belli against the civilians is that Norway refuses to pay these grants to the Hungarian state to be redistributed as they see fit. We are talking about maybe 20 million dollars here. In the argument over it, they have made Norway cancel 9 times as much grants payed to the Hungarian state for infrastructure projects).

The foundation concentrates on environment issues and gender inequality. The pretext for the police action is embezzlement, because they granted loans to organisations who have won money from them. Or something.

They have been in their office the whole day. 40 minutes ago the organisation's leader was detained, and reports come in that the police have also started searches at the homes of the employees.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.cdn.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F676%2F6769%2F67696%2F6769630_1dcfb1ae952e4f0f2a5dc22b0624e535_wm.jpg&hash=286ef2192a5b4ede43a15cb88c721ef6c39242df)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.

Orban is posing an increasing challenge to what the EU stands for. It is crazy how it is left unattended.

And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: frunk on September 08, 2014, 12:09:35 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.

Orban is posing an increasing challenge to what the EU stands for. It is crazy how it is left unattended.

And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.

If the Slovakians really feel that overburdened please leave.  Idiot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 08, 2014, 01:00:23 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.

Orban is posing an increasing challenge to what the EU stands for.


Bloated graft?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 04:48:56 PM
As it turns out the policemen were interested in data on the other 12 organisations receiving Norwegian grant money, they confiscated documents about that.

So, basically, since there was no legal way for the government to get to these private information, they sent in the police to grab it for them under a ridicoulous  pretence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 18, 2014, 06:19:55 AM
Austrian news quotes Hungarian news site Index that apparently there was a huge business with selling Hungarian passports for "Hungarians living abroad". Supposedly agents would do all the bureaucracy for the person interested in a sweet EU passport who never had to show up for anything in person (so they could even retain their original passport, something that Hungarian law forbids). ORF quotes the Index article as saying that a mayor in a small town signed off 200 applications in 20 minutes, receiving EUR 1000 for each.

The government reacts with outrage at Index, calling it a smear campaign by foreign intelligence services. They demand Index serves up proof of the allegations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 08:52:22 AM
Now the government is making a huge scandal out of the human rights ombudsman being "controlled by TASZ" (which is a human rights organisation). Based on what? The fact that one of his employees had a few e-mail exchanges with an employee of TASZ.

They are really going full Russia now. The EU being silent over this is ridiculous. Oh wait, they haven't been silent: on the issue of 50 riot police descending upon a civil organisation to gather some paperwork they never asked for before (I wrote about it here) was commented by the EU saying it is not about EU grant money (it is about Norwegian), so they can't do a thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.

WTF?  First we have Austrians calling USA a great Atheistic destroyer of Pious Christian Euroland and now this.  Is saying things so obviously insane that they just create confusion rather than offense being exported from Russia at an alarming rate or something?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 11:08:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.

WTF?  First we have Austrians calling USA a great Atheistic destroyer of Pious Christian Euroland and now this.  Is saying things so obviously insane that they just create confusion rather than offense being exported from Russia at an alarming rate or something?

I think it is about channelling dissent. These guys are fucking up the economy (Orban for sure, I am just assuming on Slovakia), and they need to shift blame from the real culprits, their own leftist short sighted policies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on September 22, 2014, 04:26:41 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 11:08:53 AM
I think it is about channelling dissent. These guys are fucking up the economy (Orban for sure, I am just assuming on Slovakia), and they need to shift blame from the real culprits, their own leftist short sighted policies.
The Tatra Tiger's calmed down a bit. But it's still doing well around 75% of EU average now and, of course, they've joined the Euro :)

Edit: And it's worth saying this leftie PM is the guy who was in charge during much of the Tiger period and when they joined the Euro. /Edit

And Fico's comments require a bit of context. It wasn't about NATO membership. It was in the course of discussing permanent NATO bases in Eastern Europe - which the Czech Republic rejected for Czech territory - and Fico said Slovakia also didn't want any foreign troops stationed permanently stationed on their territory because of 1968. As he put it 'this topic is incredibly sensitive for us'. Which is, I think, a fair comment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 22, 2014, 04:26:41 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 11:08:53 AM
I think it is about channelling dissent. These guys are fucking up the economy (Orban for sure, I am just assuming on Slovakia), and they need to shift blame from the real culprits, their own leftist short sighted policies.
The Tatra Tiger's calmed down a bit. But it's still doing well around 75% of EU average now and, of course, they've joined the Euro :)

Edit: And it's worth saying this leftie PM is the guy who was in charge during much of the Tiger period and when they joined the Euro. /Edit

And Fico's comments require a bit of context. It wasn't about NATO membership. It was in the course of discussing permanent NATO bases in Eastern Europe - which the Czech Republic rejected for Czech territory - and Fico said Slovakia also didn't want any foreign troops stationed permanently stationed on their territory because of 1968. As he put it 'this topic is incredibly sensitive for us'. Which is, I think, a fair comment.

No it is not. It is directly drawing a comparison between the USSR occupation and NATO bases. Which is ridiculous. And IIRC it was the liberals who ruled during most of the upturn of Slovakia's economy. Which, btw, is based on offering cheap labour to German car factories, so isn't really about some fundamental change, just a bunch of big investments in a tiny county.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on September 22, 2014, 04:41:52 PM
No it's not. They're (Czechs and Slovaks) not saying that NATO's just like the Warsaw Pact and will force troops onto their territory or overthrow governments. They're saying 1968 makes them very sensitive about foreign troops on their soil, so they don't want them. That's fine. Though it's probably also conditioned by the fact that they probably feel safer than the rest of EU CEE.

The liberals passed a lot of important reforms but a million reforms don't matter if they don't build a new consensus. They have. The Left's been in charge for six of the eight years since the reform ministry and have reaped those rewards (common theme of structural reform, the political beneficiary is normally the guy after you: Blair, Merkel, eventually someone in the Eurozone).

Edit: Incidentally he was echoing the (liberal) Defence Minister of the Czech Republic (later slapped down by the leftie PM) when he said 1968 had created 'psychological problems' for his country accepting foreign troops.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 05:28:33 PM
I would think the Slovakian left has been reaping the rewards of the liberals' work.

And I don't care if "foreign troop scare" is a popular feeling there. It is still moronic.  And I suspect all East Euro politician who is throwin barriers against anti-Russian actions.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 05:30:05 PM
So long as we have our legions of Slovakians to die for us we don't need bases.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 05:30:20 PM
Also, if a politician is not able/willing to explain the differences between a foreign power forcefully occupying their country vs. the country's allies taking up a base to help protect against a common danger ARE making comparisons between foreign conquerors and NATO allies. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 13, 2014, 10:11:44 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hungarys-fidesz-dominating-municipal-voting-26135037

QuoteHungary's Fidesz Widely Dominates Municipal Voting

Prime Minister Viktor Orban's Fidesz party was the clear winner in Sunday's nationwide municipal elections, with its candidates winning the mayor's post in Budapest, the capital, and in 20 of Hungary's 23 largest cities.

Speaking to supporters after preliminary results were announced, Orban vowed to "make Hungary great" in the upcoming years and boasted of winning elections for the third time this year, after victories in the national elections and for the European Parliament.

The far-right Jobbik, trying to distance itself from earlier anti-Roma and racist statements, finished mostly far behind Fidesz but ahead of the left-wing opposition in most rural areas. Jobbik won in nine smaller cities, up from three in 2010.

The splintered left-wing opposition, led by the Socialist Party, was projected to win around five of Budapest's 23 districts, at least two more than four years ago.

With 83 percent of the votes counted, turnout was around 42 percent, 4 percentage points less than in 2010.

Orban won re-election in April when Fidesz secured a new two-thirds parliamentary majority. A July speech expressing his desire to turn Hungary into an "illiberal state" sparked international criticism.

Western nations are alarmed at the way Orban has been trying to consolidate power, including a government crackdown on rights groups.

Orban defends his moves against the independent groups, which represent a range of causes, from women's and gay rights to media freedom and anti-corruption campaigns. In his July speech, he called them "paid political activists attempting to assert foreign interests in Hungary."

In outlining his plans to make Hungary stronger, he cited Russia, China, Turkey and Singapore as examples of countries that are successful despite not being liberal democracies and "maybe not even democracies."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 18, 2014, 03:03:12 PM
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/10/17/the-us-cancels-visas-for-hungarians-involved-in-corruption/

LOL

QuoteThe US Cancels Visas for Hungarians Involved in Corruption

The State Department refused entry to the U.S. to several Hungarians because it said they had been involved in corruption, once more highlighting tensions between the U.S. administration and the feisty government of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban.

In a statement issued by Charge'd affairs M. Andre Goodfriend the embassy said the US canceled the visas on the basis of "credible information that those persons are either engaging in or benefiting from corruption."

The State Department didn't disclose the names of the individuals. Mr. Goodfriend said there were less than 10 and some of them were state officials.

Hungary's foreign affairs and trade ministry summoned Mr. Goodfriend earlier Friday to provide information on the cases but the embassy didn't offer information saying it was confidential, the charge'd affairs said at a press conference Friday afternoon.

Neither the Hungarian government nor the ministry were immediately available to reply to questions from The Wall Street Journal.

"No one is above the law," the embassy said. "The U.S. shares Hungary's view of 'zero tolerance' of corruption. Addressing corruption requires a healthy system of checks, balances and transparency."

The U.S. has earlier been voicing criticism of Hungary's policies under Mr. Orban, who said earlier this year he looked up to some countries like Turkey or Singapore that were autocratic but in their own ways successful.

The ministry in a statement issued earlier Friday said both Hungary and the U.S. are interested in shedding light on suspected corruption cases, and to allow thorough, appropriate, transparent investigation in line with the law.

"Hungarian officers perform their work independently of any pressure," the ministry said.

Local news portal 444.hu said, citing unnamed sources, that some U.S. companies that are engaged in business in Hungary were offered participation in state tenders funded by the European Union on the condition that certain advisers would be employed or Hungarian companies involved as subcontractors.

The U.S. government action related to Hungarian individuals is not a Hungary-specific measure, the embassy also said, but part of an intensified U.S. focus on combating corruption as a fundamental obstacle to good governance, transparency and democratic values.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 18, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 22, 2014, 04:41:52 PM
No it's not. They're (Czechs and Slovaks) not saying that NATO's just like the Warsaw Pact and will force troops onto their territory or overthrow governments. They're saying 1968 makes them very sensitive about foreign troops on their soil, so they don't want them. That's fine. Though it's probably also conditioned by the fact that they probably feel safer than the rest of EU CEE.

It's a hell of a way to run a mutual defense alliance.  Any country that's not in the front line doesn't want to be inconvenienced.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 20, 2014, 05:16:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 18, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
It's a hell of a way to run a mutual defense alliance.  Any country that's not in the front line doesn't want to be inconvenienced.
Isn't the reason they're being asked if they want NATO troops on the territory because they're already on the front line?

I think your comment would be more applicable if it was at, say, Belgium not wanting to commit troops to Central and Eastern Europe.

But that's not the case. Here you've got two small countries who are currently running airlifts in Iraq and Syria, and are still in Afghanistan, who have a particular historic trauma (as the Czech Defence Minister put it a 'psychological problem') to do with foreign troops on their soil saying 'thanks for the offer, but no'.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 20, 2014, 05:41:48 PM
QuoteBut that's not the case. Here you've got two small countries who are currently running airlifts in Iraq and Syria, and are still in Afghanistan, who have a particular historic trauma (as the Czech Defence Minister put it a 'psychological problem') to do with foreign troops on their soil saying 'thanks for the offer, but no'.

Belgium is a large country?  Did they not see our 'Trigger Warning: Imperialism' warning when they joined NATO?

Seriously though what a slap in the face to us.  'Sorry America you make us think of Soviets and Nazis.  No offense or anything'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 20, 2014, 05:51:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 20, 2014, 05:16:11 PM
Isn't the reason they're being asked if they want NATO troops on the territory because they're already on the front line?

Only if you consider Hungary as the enemy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on October 20, 2014, 08:54:01 PM
At this point, would it be hard to believe that they could be Putin's plant inside the NATO establishment?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 20, 2014, 08:58:04 PM
Not that much.  But it would be very hard to see Hungarians facing west if it came to a shooting war.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on October 20, 2014, 09:00:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 20, 2014, 08:58:04 PM
Not that much.  But it would be very hard to see Hungarians facing west if it came to a shooting war.

Agreed.  They'd probably just try and look very small and hide in the corner.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on October 20, 2014, 09:01:25 PM
In their beet warrens.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 21, 2014, 12:45:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 20, 2014, 05:16:11 PM
But that's not the case. Here you've got two small countries who are currently running airlifts in Iraq and Syria, and are still in Afghanistan, who have a particular historic trauma (as the Czech Defence Minister put it a 'psychological problem') to do with foreign troops on their soil saying 'thanks for the offer, but no'.

Sorry but their "particular historic trauma" is pretty peanuts compared to what Poland or the Baltics went through during the last century. So, yeah, they are cowards as they have always been and it is preposterous for them to insist on exceptional treatment due to something that essentially every country in the region experienced within the living memory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 21, 2014, 01:02:48 AM
http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL6N0SB2XF20141016

QuoteEU commission sues Hungary over foreigners' right to buy farmland

BRUSSELS Oct 16 (Reuters) - The European Commission started legal action against Hungary on Thursday over the right of foreigners to buy agricultural land, saying restrictions on such purchases violated the European Union's principle of free movement of capital.

"Hungarian legislation has restricted the rights of cross-border investors in a way that may violate EU law on free movement of capital and freedom of establishment," the Commission said in a statement.

"The European Commission has today decided to formally request Hungary to submit its observations on its legislation terminating certain contractual rights of investors to use agricultural land," it said.

This is the first stage of the infringement procedures under EU law and Hungary has two months to respond.


"legislation terminating certain contractual rights of investors to use agricultural land" => When Hungary joined the EU (or even before?) they attracted foreign investors to develop agricultural land through long term leases. Those leases were meant to expire with a 20 year notification period. Orban has changed that time frame to a couple of months in a "Hungarian soil for Hungarians" kind of move, prompting major protests from Austrian investors.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 21, 2014, 01:17:05 AM
One wonders how far one can go without getting booted out of the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on October 21, 2014, 01:23:43 AM
The EU doesn't like to give anyone an economic beet down.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 04:04:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 21, 2014, 12:45:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 20, 2014, 05:16:11 PM
But that's not the case. Here you've got two small countries who are currently running airlifts in Iraq and Syria, and are still in Afghanistan, who have a particular historic trauma (as the Czech Defence Minister put it a 'psychological problem') to do with foreign troops on their soil saying 'thanks for the offer, but no'.

Sorry but their "particular historic trauma" is pretty peanuts compared to what Poland or the Baltics went through during the last century. So, yeah, they are cowards as they have always been and it is preposterous for them to insist on exceptional treatment due to something that essentially every country in the region experienced within the living memory.

:yes:


And in general, at this point my only hope is that Hungary doesn't switch from EU to Eurasian Union before I can get my British passport for extra protection when I visit home.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 08:53:31 AM
On the US banning some folks, the government has making half-assed attempts at telling how the USA is a good friend of Hungary and how they will act on any corruption intel the Great Sa... I mean the USA might have.

Also there seems to be visible shellshock and scare on their side over the whole thing. I think they were waaay too used to being two-faced shameless bastards and getting away with it. The US is not the EU, however.

Didn't stop them from having the vice-chair of Parliament travel to Iran for some cozy-ing up with an Iranian MP using the chance to blame the Middle East's instability on the stupidity of the US and its allies. Hungarian guy concluded with declaring it a priority for Hungary to have closer relationships with Eastern countries, Iran in particular.

http://www.tasnimnews.com/English/Home/Single/535153


I can't help but keeping patting myself in the back for GTFO-ing from there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 08:59:37 AM
Oh and our brand new Foreign Minister, Szijjarto, is in Washington.

What you need to know about this guy (aged 36) is that his only accomplishment in life has been the unquestionable loyalty to Orban. Straight from college he joined party ranks and he came into the public scene as press secretary. There was NOTHING stupid or blatant enough for him not to say with a straight face. He was obedient and enthusiastic: if no Fidesz politican could add his face to talk of something silly (in opposition as well), he was there.

The declared goal of his ministry is to "shift foreign policy to gaining business opportunities". They have removed basically everyone with diplomatic experience in his ministry IIRC. Probably they slowed business down by saying stuff like "the USA will kick our ass for this".

So yeah, I am waiting what kind of damages he will do in Washington. I expect he is on phone with Orban 24 hours while there, because I haven't heard or read him having any kind of unique thought during his political carreer. Like zip. None. He has been a parrot of Orban. He will be eaten alive by even half-talented diplomats.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 06:36:18 PM
http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hungary_to_impose_internet_levy_in_2015_tax_plans_show.28561.html

Quotechanges to the tax regime to be implemented in 2015. An amendment of the telecom law is also included, according to which the telecom tax would be extended to Internet services. The tax will be proportionate to data traffic and every gigabyte started will cost 150 forints.


Varga has already told a press conference earlier today that the scope of the telecom tax would be extended to Internet services. He argues that the original subject of the levy, namely phone calls are made and text messages are sent mostly not traditional tools, rather through the Internet.

2014.10.21 14:34
Hungary will keep special taxes even in 2015 - minister

Péter Banai, state secretary responsible for budget issues at the National Economy Ministry, told an online press conference today that the Internet tax is estimated to generate HUF 20 bn for the budget.

1 Gb = 150 florints = 60 dollar cents.

According to my IP I consume about 20gb every month just browsing and using email (without downloads), that's 12 bucks in tax if I were Hungarian. Add to it stuff I purchase from, say, itunes or steam and the thing goes through the roof.

Of course I assume this is aimed at discouraging the free flow of information through internet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 21, 2014, 06:54:48 PM
It could very easily be a way of raising revenue without inconveniencing their own constituency.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
It seems a pretty hefty tax to me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on October 21, 2014, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
It seems a pretty hefty tax to me.

Yeah, there are a lot of GB cycling through the internet, even in Hungary. Seems like a whole lot of free money for the government. It'll be interesting to see to what degree it might hit "regular government supporting" Hungarians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 21, 2014, 07:00:21 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
It seems a pretty hefty tax to me.

Sure, but the democratic discourse blah blah stuff you're talking about doesn't eat much bandwidth.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 07:07:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 21, 2014, 07:00:21 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
It seems a pretty hefty tax to me.

Sure, but the democratic discourse blah blah stuff you're talking about doesn't eat much bandwidth.

It will still force IPs to raise prices across the board to pass the expense to consumers, ending up limiting internet usage whether it's to download porn or to check opposition blogs.

It really seems a lot of money to me (again, assuming the source is reliable, a friend sent it to me), particularly given that Hungary has less than half the per capita income of the US, for example.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on October 21, 2014, 09:06:16 PM
Seems reasonable, when you consider that a big goal for Fidesz would be to limit Hungarian exposure to foreign ideas.  Limiting communication technology would also be useful in that it would interfere with opposition organization.

On the surface, taxing internet usage, while abominable, isn't really all that bad.  But when you consider the other actions of Fidesz and what they stand for, you do have to wonder about their motives.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 22, 2014, 01:08:46 AM
On that:

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20141021-713675.html#

QuoteHungary Plans to Tax Internet Use with Levy on Service Providers

BUDAPEST--Hungary plans to tax internet use, beginning next year, by levying a special tax on internet service providers to raise budget revenues.

The measure would be the latest in a series of extraordinary taxes the Fidesz-party government has introduced since coming into power in 2010.

The move will be an extension of Hungary's already existing telecom-sector tax since "most of the phone calls and text messages are done these days via the internet versus the traditional telephone lines," Economy Minister Mihaly Varga said at a news conference on Tuesday.

At present, Hungary has an extraordinary tax levied on each minute of a phone call and every text message  :blink: , with a monthly cap on the tax's amount per customer.


The new tax will be 150 Hungarian forints ($0.62) on every started gigabyte of data, reads the draft 2015 tax bill, which the economy ministry submitted to parliament on Tuesday, before submitting the draft 2015 budget bill to parliament by Oct. 31.

Hungary's biggest internet service providers include its three mobile operators: Norway's Telenor ASA (TEL.OS), U.K.'s Vodafone Group PLC (VOD), and Telekom, an arm of Magyar Telekom Nyrt. (MTELEKOM.BU), majority-owned by Germany's Deutsche Telekom AG (DTE.XE), as well as UPC, owned by U.S. cable group Liberty Global (LBTYA).

Also beginning next year, telecommunications companies may deduct their corporate tax from the special telecom-sector and internet-data-traffic tax, the draft bill adds.

Parliamentary approval of the new levy is likely since Fidesz has a two-third majority in parliament after it won a consecutive second term in power in general elections in April.

To express disapproval of the government's plan, several Facebook pages started Tuesday night to organize street demonstrations for Sunday. Various Facebook users have said the new levy would limit access to the internet and thus hamper the freedom of expression.

The budget revenue the government expects to collect from the new levy could exceed 20 billion forints a year, Peter Beno Banai, a state secretary at the economy ministry, told Hungarian online news agency Mfor on Tuesday.

Based on Hungary's international internet traffic data, which only covers part of the country's data traffic, fellow Hungarian news portal Index has estimated that the budget revenue could total as much as 95 billion forints a year.

In comparison, Hungarian internet providers' combined revenue totaled 164.4 billion forints in 2013, according to figures from the Hungarian statistics office.

0.62$ per started GB of data. Shadow of Mordor is over 30GB to download on Steam. So that'll be an extra $18.- in internet tax that'll be levied from the provider (and, let's face it, passed on to the customer); not to mention every time you uninstall/reinstall the game.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 02:10:15 AM
Many think this tax in the bill is intentionally too high now, so they could "hear the people" and halve it or something. That would still be extraordinary high and a massive hit to the sector. This current level would just kill it altogether unless the ISPs imposed traffic limits.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 22, 2014, 02:29:26 AM
Wow, Hungary is such a shithole it is not even funny.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 22, 2014, 02:33:09 AM
Anyways, you guys are missing trees for the forest - the tax may be an expensive inconvenience for individual customers but it will kill international businesses (or telecoms, if they do not manage to pass on the tax) which transfer terrabytes of data daily. I can't imagine banks, insurance companies, lawfirms etc. to be able to function. Makes you wonder if Fidesz is so stupid or so malicious.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 22, 2014, 02:45:21 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 21, 2014, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 21, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
It seems a pretty hefty tax to me.

Yeah, there are a lot of GB cycling through the internet, even in Hungary. Seems like a whole lot of free money for the government. It'll be interesting to see to what degree it might hit "regular government supporting" Hungarians.

The article posted by Syt provides the data. It seems the new tax would amount to app. half of the current revenues of all Hungarian telecoms. That's revenues, not profits, mind you. This is not a "hefty" tax. This is a tyrannical tax.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 03:26:24 AM
In other news, looks like despite the clear message of "cease and desist" from the US, we are (well, Hungary is, I am not there anymore) on full ahead course toward Russia.

Orban met with a Gazprom chief a month ago. Since then:
-we have stopped gas shipments to Ukraine
-we have created a new law letting Gazprom store gas in our state-owned gas storages as if that gas was still on foreign soil eg. no taxes on it until it is sold to a Hungarian company, but actually Gazprom can sell it to other countries from there as well. So they got free storage to work around a potential meltdown with Ukraine.
-this law is about to be extended with a paragraph removing all need for international consultation and cooperation when building gas pipes within Hungary. The only possible reason for this to allow the ASAP building of Russia's South Stream pipe system on Hungarian soil, without the meddling of the pesky EU.

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 22, 2014, 03:29:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 03:26:24 AM
-this law is about to be extended with a paragraph removing all need for international consultation and cooperation when building gas pipes within Hungary

Considering that most major pipelines are international projects, I'm not even sure if this is practical, unless all other nations say, "screw this" and start to literally work around Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 03:35:17 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 22, 2014, 03:29:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 03:26:24 AM
-this law is about to be extended with a paragraph removing all need for international consultation and cooperation when building gas pipes within Hungary

Considering that most major pipelines are international projects, I'm not even sure if this is practical, unless all other nations say, "screw this" and start to literally work around Hungary.

Well no. If those countries have the same EU-approved regulations and laws on this they will still need to consult with Hungary. This is about Hungary showing the EU the finger about closely cooperating with its biggest current rival on a decisive strategic project.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 03:36:17 AM
Regarding all this Russia stuff, there is only one thing I am unsure about: Is Orban doing this because the Russian secret service has something on him, or because the country is much more out of money than they would have you know and he needs Russian assistance in the near future.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 08:43:06 AM
And now one of Orban's "lieutenants" sent in the proposal to limit this tax to 700Ft (cca 2.3 euros) per person per month.

On a sidenote it doesn't make sense since they are taxing the gross data transit of the ISPs with the declared aim of "we cannot have the people paying for it", but anyways.

Main point is: this is how you introduce a horrible new tax, kids. If they just announce this 700Ft stuff straight away, there would have been the same uproar as for the first version. But now everyone will go calm, because instead of outright destroying public access to the Internet, they are just making it about 50% more expensive.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 11:19:27 AM
Its not getting any attention next to the Internet tax but other than also raising taxes on different consumer items (soaps shampoos and such), also they are introducing a big tax on the profit of the investment funds.

Ever since they have drastically decreased the base interest rate (the central bank is ruled by Orban's crony now) savings have started flowing into two places: bonds, and investment funds. The latter is clearly not to the government's liking because they are introducing such a tax that will force the funds to raise their profit margin ergo decreasing the benefits of customers pushing them toward the bond market.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 22, 2014, 12:06:59 PM
In other news of today's Surreal Hungary edition: the Hungarian state TV has signed strategic partnership with the Chinese state TV.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 27, 2014, 10:48:47 AM
There was a big demonstration yesterday against the Internet Tax, which ended with a bunch of people doing some damage to the Fidesz HQ building.
There is another demo scheduled for tomorrow. It will be crucial to have at least the same number of people.

The "civil organisation" in support of Fidesz has announced they'll probably do another "Peace March" (when on party and tax money they get together a hundred thousand supporters plus assorted imported Polacks to demonstrate their love for the dear leader). In his longwinded explanation, he mentioned stuff like "America is not our friend, neither our ally" and that the US is using "internal traitors" to steer up trouble.
It was a delightfully 1950s thing to read. No surprise though, the guy writing it was a devoted fan of communism until he found the radical nationalist in him cca. 10 years ago.

And where did our new Foreign Minister went during our biggest diplomatic crisis with our allies since, well, probably 1956? To China. To speak on a conference about the "challenges facing the European Union".

Seriously, I think Hungary is a major security risk in both NATO and EU by now. :( This regime needs to be toppled by the US because the Hungarians themselves will not do it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 27, 2014, 10:55:03 AM
Also now government officials are talking about the South Stream gas pipe construction starting in 6 months. You know the pipe that is opposed by the US, considered against EU rules by the EU, but being built by the Hungarian government just the same.

It is of strategic importance of course, since right now we are only receiving big amounts of gas from Russia. With South Stream, we would have a new route to receive big amounts of natural gas from... Russia.

So it fits nicely with the government strategy of diversifying our energy dependencies. Part of that strategy is having the Russians build us a second nuclear power plant, financed from a loan given by the Russian state, which is btw the biggest in the country's long history of being up to our neck in debt.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 29, 2014, 05:14:13 AM
Last night, second round of protests:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.cdn.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F706%2F7067%2F70674%2F7067429_564f986f7ff2ff0c0d7d9f0e6e68e4cd_wm.jpg&hash=f05ed13a34d218898df849a329789be12f764471)


Even more people than on Sunday. Lots of people yelling against the Russian orientation and corruption in general, not just the internet tax.

It is not until long that these people will be accused of being under foreign organisation. To be honest I would not be surprised if the Americans did send a political advisor to the organisers or something. :D These demonstrations made by amateurs were pretty, well, amateurish, but last night the speeches were quite good, and very determined. The clear goal helps I guess, so the speakers declared: "there will be no Internet Tax!".

It is a clear challenge to the government. The whole tax is a horrible idea, even in its watered down present form in the bill, it would simply eliminate all but the largest ISPs, unless they put all the tax into subscription prices which would mean an almost 50% raise across the board (except for the more expensive packages).
Even some FIDESZ politicians are openly criticising the idea, not to mention their press.

But can they cancel it now? If they do, the people will learn that the absolute power these guys want to project is just an illusion, and every time they make an unpopular bill (about ever fortnight), they will face similar demonstrations. I think they cannot yield, and that's how the government is speaking this morning.

The Internet tax bill will be voted on the 17th of November, that's when the next demonstration is going to be held. Will be interesting.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on October 29, 2014, 07:08:30 AM
[Monoriu]
Where's the police to get rid of the rioters that are blocking the bridge
[/Monoriu]
:D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 29, 2014, 07:12:27 AM
Damn those rioters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on October 29, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
I had no idea Hungary had  so many Jews. Such a large turnout over a $2 tax...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 29, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 29, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
I had no idea Hungary had  so many Jews. Such a large turnout over a $2 tax...

I guess its closer to 3 bucks :P

For the cheaper subscriptions, that's about 50% raise, OR the total elimination of the ISP's profit margin.

AND there is already the 27% VAT on the whole thing, plus all the taxes the ISP is paying.

Don't start Tyr, because Hungary is one of the still standing monumental proofs of the utter failure of your economical worldview.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on October 29, 2014, 06:30:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 29, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
Don't start Tyr, because Hungary is one of the still standing monumental proofs of the utter failure of your economical worldview.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on October 29, 2014, 06:46:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 29, 2014, 06:30:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 29, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
Don't start Tyr, because Hungary is one of the still standing monumental proofs of the utter failure of your economical worldview.

:rolleyes:

But none over Jos's slur/use of stereotype?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on October 29, 2014, 07:01:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2014, 06:46:37 PM
But none over Jos's slur/use of stereotype?

I generally don't engage with displays of anti-semitism on the internet.

But fair enough, Tamas' retaliation was not unprovoked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 04:51:26 AM
The Italian company owning 66% of the Slovakian energy company (which in turn owns their nuclear power plant and their hydro plant), is selling its share.

One of the interested parties is... Hungary. The state-owned company handling state assets, to be precise. Together with MOL the Hungarian oil company, which is under heavy state influence (and its CEO owes a big one to Orban, because he protected him from being sent to jail in Croatia).

A huge question of course is: where the fuck are we getting the 2 billion euros needed for this deal? Surely not from the budget. So based on recent happenings, the conclusion is self-evident, really: we are the strawman for the Russians buying up energy production in Slovakia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 06:33:47 AM
I know this is probably crazy, but:

-Maybe 6 months ago or so, a shady player, maneuvering between organised crime and political circles since the 90s, Tamas Weisz, got into the limelight when arrested. News about him and his dealings started to gather up in the press after that, and it was quite clear he had deals with politicians from both sides.
He supposedly made a deal with the prosecution (which is led by Orban's close friend). Then one morning two police officers went to pick him up to gather up some documents of his as evidence. He, supposedly, claimed he took some pills to kill himself, and died in the police car. But that's the version we know. There was much confusion about the autopsy report. He would have been a nice asset for the government in flinging shit at the socialist opposition party (which has fallen so silent and weak that I believe it has been bought out by Fidesz), but also obviously had dirt on Fidesz as well, so he is definitely more convenient dead.

-Just before the local elections a couple of months ago, the candidate running against Orban's close friend the incumbent mayor of his hometown (and probably handler of his corrupt wealth), was hit by a car and died. The culprit was an old Austrian guy who stayed at the scene, so again, very hard to even suspect foul play, but again, very convenient timing. He was just a poor shepherd who was driven from the state-owned land his family's livelihood was depending on, because that land was granted to the mayor. When he started speaking out, the mayor's men used tractors to destroy his crops, for example. So he was quite the folk hero for the opposition.

-A Socialist crooked MP came out of prison about a year ago. He wrote a book about dirty Socialist businesses trying to cosy up to Fidesz, and then kind of tried to reboot his career.  A month ago or so his car was rammed on the side by a SUV or a pickup, can't remember. He survived relatively unharmed, so again, suspecting anything is a pretty long stretch, but just like that Weisz fellow above, he is quite the wildcard, potentially dangerous to the current establishment of Fidesz governance with the Socialists resigned to working on keeping opposition activity muted.

-Today, one of the most active young opposition figure, always in the forefront of demonstrations, aged 26, jumped in front of a train and died. He suffered of depression, and he was kept for days in custody recently, after trying to prevent other demonstrators from damaging the Fidesz HQ during the anti-Internet tax demonstrations.
His friends say this is surely suicide, yet one cannot help but add it to the above list.

I mean, add these to the clearly dramatically rising Russian investment in the power and survival of the Orban regime, and it gets a bit hard to dismiss conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 07:12:03 AM
BTW is it even possible to be THE most active and daring organiser of demonstrations and political actions for years, AND suffer in a severe enough depression to eventually off yourself?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Agelastus on November 07, 2014, 07:15:26 AM
Needs more umbrellas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on November 07, 2014, 07:26:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 06:33:47 AM
I know this is probably crazy, but:

-A Socialist crooked MP came out of prison about a year ago. He wrote a book about dirty Socialist businesses trying to cosy up to Fidesz, and then kind of tried to reboot his career.  A month ago or so his car was rammed on the side by a SUV or a pickup, can't remember. He survived relatively unharmed, so again, suspecting anything is a pretty long stretch, but just like that Weisz fellow above, he is quite the wildcard, potentially dangerous to the current establishment of Fidesz governance with the Socialists resigned to working on keeping opposition activity muted.
....


How is this evidence of anything other than people have routine car accidents?

How many Languishites have been involved in car accidents, when really it was because of their posting activities here.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 08:48:37 AM
Quote from: mongers on November 07, 2014, 07:26:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 06:33:47 AM
I know this is probably crazy, but:

-A Socialist crooked MP came out of prison about a year ago. He wrote a book about dirty Socialist businesses trying to cosy up to Fidesz, and then kind of tried to reboot his career.  A month ago or so his car was rammed on the side by a SUV or a pickup, can't remember. He survived relatively unharmed, so again, suspecting anything is a pretty long stretch, but just like that Weisz fellow above, he is quite the wildcard, potentially dangerous to the current establishment of Fidesz governance with the Socialists resigned to working on keeping opposition activity muted.
....


How is this evidence of anything other than people have routine car accidents?

How many Languishites have been involved in car accidents, when really it was because of their posting activities here.  :ph34r:

Yes its probably nothing. But kind of weird that it happens in relatively short time of other unfortunaties befalling other inconvenient people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 08:50:11 AM
"Orban is our man" says Russian editorial:

http://www.vedomosti.ru/opinion/news/35668551/madyarskie-pesni
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 11, 2014, 06:13:31 AM
Meanwhile, today Orban is busy bending down for the president of Azerbaijan, who is visiting Budapest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 11, 2014, 08:15:06 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 04:51:26 AM
The Italian company owning 66% of the Slovakian energy company (which in turn owns their nuclear power plant and their hydro plant), is selling its share.

One of the interested parties is... Hungary. The state-owned company handling state assets, to be precise. Together with MOL the Hungarian oil company, which is under heavy state influence (and its CEO owes a big one to Orban, because he protected him from being sent to jail in Croatia).

A huge question of course is: where the fuck are we getting the 2 billion euros needed for this deal? Surely not from the budget. So based on recent happenings, the conclusion is self-evident, really: we are the strawman for the Russians buying up energy production in Slovakia.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but a lot of investors who buy assets do it with borrowed money. Perhaps Hungary intends to do the same.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 11, 2014, 09:12:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 11, 2014, 08:15:06 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 07, 2014, 04:51:26 AM
The Italian company owning 66% of the Slovakian energy company (which in turn owns their nuclear power plant and their hydro plant), is selling its share.

One of the interested parties is... Hungary. The state-owned company handling state assets, to be precise. Together with MOL the Hungarian oil company, which is under heavy state influence (and its CEO owes a big one to Orban, because he protected him from being sent to jail in Croatia).

A huge question of course is: where the fuck are we getting the 2 billion euros needed for this deal? Surely not from the budget. So based on recent happenings, the conclusion is self-evident, really: we are the strawman for the Russians buying up energy production in Slovakia.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but a lot of investors who buy assets do it with borrowed money. Perhaps Hungary intends to do the same.

Would be nice of it to appear in the budget, then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on November 12, 2014, 12:25:39 AM
How hard is it to boot a country from the EU/NATO? :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 17, 2014, 09:16:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=885zUoIA0xw#t=10

Video showing what is now becoming a regular act: the Socialists "smuggle" in the EU flag to the Parlaiment, both to the main hall and to various meeting rooms, then the chairing Fidesz politician (this time Chairman of the House, Orban's old friend and rabid dog, Laszlo Kover), orders it to be removed as "it is the Hungarian nation's flag which is supposed to be displayed".

You know, because the EU is so evil, that it has been paying for roughly 90% of all development projects in the country for the past, IDK, 8 years, while only asking Hungary to respect at least a few of the basic EU ideals.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on November 17, 2014, 06:51:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 17, 2014, 09:16:53 AM
"it is the Hungarian nation's flag which is supposed to be displayed".

So the Russian flag?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 05:10:57 AM
It really is becoming like this bad script for showing a horrible government.

In next year budget's there are two things being raised: taxes, and spending on corrupt stuff, like huge-ass football stadiums for teams who attract a few hundred viewers per game, extra palace for their own culture organisation, etc.

And they are doing changes like removing a big chunk of money from social services to write it in the "supporting sport activities" column.

And they are finishing the nationalisation of the private pension scheme, just flat out closing the remaining 60k accounts, including mine, by creating a requirement that no insurance company can meet.

Really, there is one kind of activity from the government: syphoning money out to their clients and business partners. Everything else has a reduced budget and in the process of decay and collapse. They are a band of locusts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 05:14:49 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvalasztas2014.hir24.hu%2FRoot%2FShared%2FPictures%2F2014%2F02%2F17%2Forban-evertekelo-mem-4.gif&hash=953a38f7a55eff54f27fa6c56320a0251e68a90e)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 24, 2014, 07:57:42 AM
Is that Hungarian Crystal Maze?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2014, 07:57:42 AM
Is that Hungarian Crystal Maze?

That's from Batman, dude :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.

It figures that you approve his ways of nationalising private property. You know, the evil 1% opressor kind of property, like employees' private pension savings. Twat.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:27:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.

Oh and on public spending.

The net salary is about 50% of what the employee costs his/her employer (his/her actual pre-tax salary plus the extra things the employer have to pay after the employee).
Add 27% VAT on basically everything.
Then various extra special taxes on all kinds of goods and services that have proven to yield a profit the last 5-6 years.

So about 75% of what you work for goes into the state budget.

Yet, everything from education through military to hospitals are in a bad and worsening shape, poverty is rising.

So why don't you take your grand social ideals of redistribution and relocate to Hungary, see how it feels in practice.

I know you have contempt for the poor like most socialists, so in general I am not annoyed, but you managed to flip me this time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:32:33 AM
BEET RAGE
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:35:34 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:32:33 AM
BEET RAGE

Having a filthy rich lawyer implying that destroying a country is ok as long as it is in the name of communism is a bit annoying.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:36:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:35:34 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:32:33 AM
BEET RAGE

Having a filthy rich lawyer implying that destroying a country is ok as long as it is in the name of communism is a bit annoying.

I hear you. He's likely posting that while holding a glass of Merlot and acting fruity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.

It figures that you approve his ways of nationalising private property. You know, the evil 1% opressor kind of property, like employees' private pension savings. Twat.

I am just not sure in whose hands the pension money is less safe - those of the government or private fund managers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 10:19:15 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:36:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:35:34 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:32:33 AM
BEET RAGE

Having a filthy rich lawyer implying that destroying a country is ok as long as it is in the name of communism is a bit annoying.

I hear you. He's likely posting that while holding a glass of Merlot and acting fruity.

Acting I was at a restaurant at a time eating a spinach and shrimp risotto. Lunch at work so no wine.

But Merlot is such a low class wine. I wouldn't touch it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 24, 2014, 10:21:49 AM
Just to test the waters, how would you feel about a poor lawyer doing it?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.

It figures that you approve his ways of nationalising private property. You know, the evil 1% opressor kind of property, like employees' private pension savings. Twat.

I am just not sure in whose hands the pension money is less safe - those of the government or private fund managers.

My savings have always been in the green except for 2008 (I have been in the riskiest portfolio), overall a pretty sweet gain in the past 8 years.

The government, in the previous, much bigger, nationalisation round (where it wasn't mandatory, as you could go to the state pension office and declare that you did NOT want your private account be nationalised, heh), gained around one billion euros.
It's gone. All of it. It has been gone since mid- late 2013. Every penny. In 3 years. Poof.

And that money was THE source of investment companies got from local Hungarian sources, via the different pension funds investing them. That is also gone as a source of capital.

I will let you do the math and figure out which has been better for the country. The capitalist way, or the socialist way.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on November 24, 2014, 12:10:36 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.

It figures that you approve his ways of nationalising private property. You know, the evil 1% opressor kind of property, like employees' private pension savings. Twat.

That's not it. It's that your comments on political stuff the rest of us are familiar with are so overwrought, it's hard to know how accurate your descriptions of the situation in Hungary is.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 24, 2014, 12:55:30 PM
I think it's safe to say that Socialism sucks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 24, 2014, 12:10:36 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:07:33 AM
I gotta say I have a hard time with Tamas's reports of Orban's misrule. On one hand, Orban is clearly an authoritarian would be dictator. On the other hand, Tamas's political views are questionable, especially when it comes to stuff like public spending.

It figures that you approve his ways of nationalising private property. You know, the evil 1% opressor kind of property, like employees' private pension savings. Twat.

That's not it. It's that your comments on political stuff the rest of us are familiar with are so overwrought, it's hard to know how accurate your descriptions of the situation in Hungary is.

Luckily there is a growing number of western newspapers you can rely on, who are telling basically the same thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 01:00:22 PM
And there are Russian newspapers who do not really contradict me either, but they approve the processes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 24, 2014, 02:01:27 PM
I love the body language on this photo made today, because it shows who rules in Hungary:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Fkepe.jpg&hash=bc9288717facf102ea89e0084d6a9082c258ae30)


On the right, clearly taking the position  of authority and disappointment over the guy on the left, is Janos Lazar, Orban's right hand. Before becoming that, he was the mayor of a large town, managing to run its budget to the ground. Before that, he was the assistant (as in, secretary) of the town's previous mayor. Before that, he was in university.
But don't be fooled. He has big power now. He leads the "Prime Minsiter's Ministry" and everything involved with paying out money is concentrated in that ministry. Nobody spends a penny without this guy signing off on it.

On the left, sitting like a chicken shit scared employee, is the Chief Prosecutor of Hungary.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 08, 2014, 02:11:56 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/08/hungary-mandatory-drug-tests-children

QuoteHungary considering mandatory drug tests for children, politicians and press

MPs from ruling Fidesz party back plan for yearly tests between ages 12 and 18 to 'protect children and help fight drug trafficking'

MPs from Hungary's ruling rightwing Fidesz party have backed a proposal to conduct yearly mandatory drug tests on children between the age of 12 and 18.

Antal Rogán, head of the Fidesz parliamentary group, said the plan needed some "strong adjustments" but claimed it would protect children and fight drug trafficking and organised crime.

A draft of the bill is expected to be ready in February for debate in parliament, where Fidesz has a two-thirds majority of seats.

Rogán said the test results would be revealed only to parents, and a positive test would have no legal consequences for minors.

Last week Fidesz's communications director, Máté Kocsis, said the tests would also apply to politicians and journalists. Rogán said legal consultations were needed to determine whether those groups could be included.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on December 08, 2014, 07:44:21 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on December 08, 2014, 07:47:38 PM
:huh:

What would be the point of spending money in that fashion?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 02, 2015, 07:14:00 PM
Interesting:
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKKBN0KB1C720150102
QuoteHungarian protesters keep up pressure on government
Fri, Jan 02 21:20 PM GMT
image
   1 of 2   
By Sandor Peto and Krisztina Fenyo

BUDAPEST (Reuters) - Thousands of Hungarians staged an anti-government protest on Friday, maintaining pressure on Prime Minister Viktor Orban's centre-right administration which has lost about a third of its popular support since October.

Orban's Fidesz party won a new term with a two-thirds majority in April but its support has waned in the last few months as civic groups organised rallies against its policies, forcing Orban to back down from a plan to tax Internet traffic.

Despite a 10 percentage point drop in support, according to the latest opinion poll by Szazadveg, Fidesz' 25 percent backing still eclipses that of the far-right Jobbik which has 14 percent and the Socialists with 11 percent.

Protesters on Friday said they were demonstrating for democracy and against poverty and accused the government of undermining democratic checks and balances, something it denies.

"We feel that democracy has suffered a very serious blow," said teacher Zsuzsa Veress, at the rally in the drizzling rain in the centre of Budapest.

The groups that have organised the rallies have kept their distance from the unpopular opposition parties. There were no party symbols on display at Friday's rally, called by the MostMi! ("Endow!) movement, and the typical banner was the European Union's starred blue flag.

One protester, Mire Gyongyosi, a haulage entrepreneur in his 40s, said he wanted the civic groups to become an organised force.

"I would like them to get into parliament independently from the other parties, and then we would have people there whom the country accepts because they are not yet tainted and have not sullied themselves in the past decades," he said.

(Reporting by Sandor Peto and Krisztina Fenyo; Editing by Robin Pomeroy)
Fidesz followed by Jobbik :blink: :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2015, 07:21:06 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 24, 2014, 12:10:36 PM
That's not it. It's that your comments on political stuff the rest of us are familiar with are so overwrought, it's hard to know how accurate your descriptions of the situation in Hungary is.

He's not editorializing, he's reporting fact.  Unless he's been caught out in a lie before, I don't see the grounds for calling Tamas a liar.

And as he said, whether the government is spending money on footie stadiums or not is something that is easy to verify.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on January 02, 2015, 07:25:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2015, 07:21:06 PM
He's not editorializing, he's reporting fact.  Unless he's been caught out in a lie before, I don't see the grounds for calling Tamas a liar.

And as he said, whether the government is spending money on footie stadiums or not is something that is easy to verify.

You must be bored.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2015, 07:30:56 PM
No, I'm good thanks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on January 02, 2015, 07:31:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2015, 07:30:56 PM
No, I'm good thanks.

Well, carry on then. Happy new year.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on January 02, 2015, 08:22:55 PM
I'm bored!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: 11B4V on January 02, 2015, 10:10:45 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 02, 2015, 08:22:55 PM
I'm bored!

Cook some beets
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on January 03, 2015, 12:52:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 02, 2015, 10:10:45 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 02, 2015, 08:22:55 PM
I'm bored!

Cook some beets


MMM, beets... :mmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 03, 2015, 02:28:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2014, 07:47:38 PM
:huh:

What would be the point of spending money in that fashion?

I agree it's wasteful, but I approve of the invasiveness.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 03, 2015, 02:29:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 08, 2014, 07:47:38 PM
:huh:

What would be the point of spending money in that fashion?

That proposition came up in the weeks when fidesz was simply desperate to steer public discourse away from their numerous obvious criminal (as in, should be criminal but there are no investigations obviously) corruption cases. Eg. They have proposed and introduced mandatory closing of shops on Sunday in short orderout of the blue, probably driven by the same PR desire.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2015, 05:26:22 AM
I think we might see another step in Putinisation in a month or so.

There is constant talk from FIDESZ about discussing, on the start of February government meeting, the "Country Protection Action Plan". What is that exactly is hard to grasp at the moment, but there are 3 areas mentioned so far:

-making sure the financial background of the opposition protests are public to "avoid secret foreign influence"
-expanding the rights of TEK, the police special forces pretty much under Orban's personal command - because of the Paris massacre, of course
-introducing measures "similar to the Patriot Act of the US", extending rights in monitoring people to protect us from immigrant threat.

Funniest thing of course that apart from a few poor wartime refugees held up in camps, we have absolutely ZERO immigrant issues, their effect on the economy is non-existent because none of them is stupid enough to try and stay here, when they are already within the EU and can migrate westward to functional countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 12, 2015, 05:33:02 AM
As posted in the Paris shooting thread:

http://news.yahoo.com/hungary-pm-orban-says-immigration-threat-must-stopped-083257199.html

QuoteHungary PM Orban says immigration a threat, must be stopped

BUDAPEST (Reuters) - Immigration to Europe should be largely halted, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said late on Sunday, demanding a robust EU response to last week's killings in France.

Orban was speaking after attending a mass rally in Paris to pay tribute to 17 people killed in attacks launched by a trio of Islamist extremists, who were born in France to immigrant families.

The deadly attacks look certain to bolster anti-immigration movements around Europe, and Orban, who has called for migration curbs in the past, said it was time for Brussels to get tough.

"We should not look at economic immigration as if it had any use, because it only brings trouble and threats to European people," he told state television. "Therefore, immigration must be stopped. That's the Hungarian stance."

The only exception, he said, should be for people claiming political asylum.

"Hungary will not become a target destination for immigrants," he said. "We will not allow it, at least as long as I am prime minister and as long as this government is in power."

Orban's right-wing government was elected for a second consecutive term last year. The prime minister said minorities living in Hungary, which has a population of some 10 million, posed no particular problem.

"We do not want to see a significant minority among ourselves that has different cultural characteristics and background. We would like to keep Hungary as Hungary," he added.

According to the national statistics office (KSH), some 350,000 Hungarians live and worked abroad, most of them in Germany, Britain and Austria.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2015, 05:49:07 AM
Yeah, its crazy. Hungary has some small issues of having locked up refugees, but there is NO "muslim issue" as in terms of muslim minority part of the population and having radicals among them. AT ALL.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 11:58:57 AM
QuoteWe would like to keep Hungary as Hungary

:zipped:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on January 12, 2015, 12:29:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2015, 05:49:07 AM
Yeah, its crazy. Hungary has some small issues of having locked up refugees, but there is NO "muslim issue" as in terms of muslim minority part of the population and having radicals among them. AT ALL.

I also like the part with "minorities posing no particular problems". So everything is fine with gypsies now all of a sudden? It's not like Hungary is the only country having trouble with gypsies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on January 12, 2015, 12:31:17 PM
Duque, truly is vile, no? Perhaps it is all that champagne and too little sparkling wine. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 23, 2015, 05:29:39 PM
http://coub.com/view/4qk1a
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 26, 2015, 04:03:37 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F38.media.tumblr.com%2F38bbfad9ae3f48ea7b463f80f05d2a86%2Ftumblr_nisia8lHdO1qdtmevo1_500.gif&hash=bb01f2f0dfce060686513e74f8f096bfbbb2a30b)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 26, 2015, 04:06:35 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.disquscdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fmediaembed%2Fimages%2F1666%2F9499%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=bee2d42baed27b226ba2a3ce467ee7fe03925128)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 29, 2015, 04:54:28 AM
Well folks, this is how you make money:


In 2013, the government started issuing a bond, where the buyer would get a Hungarian visa, followed by a green card. One bond costs 250 000 euros, and basically buys you Hungarian citizenship, which of course also means EU citizenship.

However, these bonds are sold by 7 pre-selected private companies acting as middlemen (the countries of the world are divided between them, so there is no competition whatsoever). The companies buy one bond (again, nominal value 250k) for 221 000 euros. Then they of course sell it to the client for 250 000 euros, plus administrative fees which in the case of one company where they could get info from is 45k euros.

So, taxpayers get 221k, and pay out 250k plus interest, plus the privilege of having Hungarian-passport wielding Russian and Chinese gangsters (the two countries where this bond is most popular at), while the pre-selected private companies earn around 75-80k profit on the whole thing, for doing the same paperwork as, say, a clerk in the post office does (as you can buy certain bonds in the post office).

This law was pressed by Antal Rogan, leader of the Fidesz fraction, and he himself selected the 7 companies as well.

Rogan, BTW, might become the first victim of the serious Fidesz in-fighting which has been reported over recent months, as basically there are new evidences of all kinds of corruption related to him are leaked to the press every week. I mean, most of those leaks should be public info to begin with according to the laws, but its Hungary we are talking about, so they have to be leaked to become visible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on January 29, 2015, 05:28:33 AM
Our ruling party is running a "buy a house in Spain, get a residence permit!" scheme that's very popular in Russia and China, too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on January 29, 2015, 05:58:59 AM
Other EU countries have similar schemes, I believe it was Malta the one that set the lowest threshold to get its nationality.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 29, 2015, 09:48:28 AM
Quote from: celedhring on January 29, 2015, 05:28:33 AM
Our ruling party is running a "buy a house in Spain, get a residence permit!" scheme that's very popular in Russia and China, too.

It seems noone wants to live in countries with reppressive protest gag laws. I wonder if there is a correlation.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on January 29, 2015, 12:03:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2015, 04:54:28 AMThis law was pressed by Antal Rogan, leader of the Fidesz fraction, and he himself selected the 7 companies as well.

Rogan?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2015, 08:50:53 AM
Merkel's face today in Budapest when Orban explained that liberal democracy is not the only kind of democracy. (her look left at the end).

http://coub.com/view/4utd7
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on February 02, 2015, 09:23:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 26, 2015, 04:03:37 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F38.media.tumblr.com%2F38bbfad9ae3f48ea7b463f80f05d2a86%2Ftumblr_nisia8lHdO1qdtmevo1_500.gif&hash=bb01f2f0dfce060686513e74f8f096bfbbb2a30b)

What's going on there?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2015, 09:49:15 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 02, 2015, 09:23:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 26, 2015, 04:03:37 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F38.media.tumblr.com%2F38bbfad9ae3f48ea7b463f80f05d2a86%2Ftumblr_nisia8lHdO1qdtmevo1_500.gif&hash=bb01f2f0dfce060686513e74f8f096bfbbb2a30b)

What's going on there?!

That was PM Orban being dragged off stage by the main EU guy whose name I forgot. And then it turned into gifs by people.  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2015, 10:10:26 AM
Another good one:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10945752_10153024403591093_615829861729798288_n.jpg?oh=73a971103014481799431cc36ac5bb77&oe=554F6B55&__gda__=1430986206_2d4f5068147f2e0ae2fc804af0b6a99f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on February 02, 2015, 10:21:25 AM
Why did MainmanEurope drag Orban offstage?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2015, 10:35:07 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 02, 2015, 10:21:25 AM
Why did MainmanEurope drag Orban offstage?

Who knows. :D But Orban was the only one besides Cameron who opposed the election of this guy. Plus he (Orban) is a mumbling idiot in constant stagefright when he is out of his environment of loyal lackies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 06, 2015, 09:52:07 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F763.gif&hash=39704ff2a532b889e20b32dd341d8cceaf2854c8)


Shit is hitting the fan!

Until fairly recently, the other de facto leader of Fidesz (ruling party) was Orban's high school friend Simicska, who were the business end of things in their operation: he received all the state contracts he could, in exchange he financed the party and used his money to build a private media empire supporting the party.

This has been changing gradually, as Orban tried to build financial and media support directly loyal to him. Rumours of conflict has been going around. Then it got all haywire yesterday.

First, Simicska gave an interview to an opposition newspaper (he NEVER talked to the press in the past) voicing disappointment over the extension of the punitive media taxes on his enterprises.

This morning, the directors of his media companies (one TV, one radio, one newspaper) resigned in one common open letter.

This got the guy in a frenzy. :D He has been on the phone to various media outlets, in rage. eg. he repeatedly called Orban a cunt.  :lol:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgifrific.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2FBoy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif&hash=f8a0151ad84a84474ec0464157b724c8b0b55d75)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on February 06, 2015, 09:53:44 AM
Never rage angry. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 18, 2015, 06:55:22 AM
http://index.hu/galeria/index/tech/2015/02/17/torpedokent_robbant_fel_a_magyar_internet_putyin_lattan/10
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 18, 2015, 06:56:57 AM
http://galeria.index.hu/tech/2015/02/17/torpedokent_robbant_fel_a_magyar_internet_putyin_lattan/7
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 18, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
This new nuclear power plant the Russians will build us from Russian money the Russian state is loaning us. It will cost 12 billion euros, and there will be a new law making everything related to the project state secret for 30 years, and the selection of the contractors involved will not be done publicly.

And you people wonder why it is important to lick Putin's ass: because they need 12 billion euros they can steal easily.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on February 18, 2015, 12:58:10 PM
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on February 18, 2015, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 18, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
This new nuclear power plant the Russians will build us from Russian money the Russian state is loaning us. It will cost 12 billion euros, and there will be a new law making everything related to the project state secret for 30 years, and the selection of the contractors involved will not be done publicly.

And you people wonder why it is important to lick Putin's ass: because they need 12 billion euros they can steal easily.

That will be a lot of financial kick-backs and skimming money off the top for a lot of lucky politicians and businesses who will be involved with this project.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2015, 07:17:29 AM
Quote from: KRonn on February 18, 2015, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 18, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
This new nuclear power plant the Russians will build us from Russian money the Russian state is loaning us. It will cost 12 billion euros, and there will be a new law making everything related to the project state secret for 30 years, and the selection of the contractors involved will not be done publicly.

And you people wonder why it is important to lick Putin's ass: because they need 12 billion euros they can steal easily.

That will be a lot of financial kick-backs and skimming money off the top for a lot of lucky politicians and businesses who will be involved with this project.

Yes. Selling the whole country down the drain both financially (this means taking the biggest loan in the country's history, and that is saying a lot) and diplomatically seems like a small price to pay for that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2015, 07:20:14 AM
Yesterday Orban went to Poland to explain his pro-Russian shift, but did not have a warm welcome, so basically just went to receive some slapping.

His greatest previous supporter and idoliser there, the one remaining potato head guy even refused to meet with him. :D

And the genius of Orban's PR department: after this Polish party (PiS I believe?) declared that they refused a Hungarian request for the two guys to meet, Orban's main press guy stated "we never asked for a meeting".

Yeah. What do you do when there is a dent in your relationship with your closest ally? You try to save face by calling him a liar!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 08:31:19 AM
Oh yes, he tried to be friendly but received a very cold shoulder from Kopacz (our PM).

The joint press conference went somewhat like this (when stripped of the diplomatic flourish):

Orban: We are friends with Russia but that does not mean we do not cheerish our long time friendship with Poland.

Kopacz: Oh yes, that. We also look back to many occassions when our friendship was strenghtened. Like when many Hungarians volunteered to help Poles fight Russians in 1831. Or when many Poles volunteered to help Hungarians fight the Russian intervention army in 1848. Or when many Poles sent humanitarian aid to Hungary when you were being raped by Russians in 1956. See the pattern there?

Orban: Well, we stayed friendly even when we were on the opposite sides.

Kopacz: Like when you sided with Hitler?

:D

And because a picture of worth a thousand words, here's a picture of both PMs:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.natemat.pl%2F808aa063b0a9948519b7ef75ab961eed%2C640%2C0%2C0%2C0.jpg&hash=abe4eb75dde315890559e4ccc2be2c1712c30621)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2015, 09:56:21 PM
After going out of his way to be humiliated in Poland, Orban gave an interview to a Russian newspaper where he was happy to talk about what he sees as deep divisions within EU concerning the organisation's long term relations to Russia, and declares that Hungary is helpless in this matter as long as Germany is on the other side of the argument.

Then explains that it is highly unfair from the west that they try to condemn "more successful" (as in more successful than the west, economically) countries, namely Turkey and Russia, "just because their political systems carry less values from a western cultural point of view"

How long will the EU finance his regime? :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 20, 2015, 09:59:29 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 08:31:19 AM
And because a picture of worth a thousand words, here's a picture of both PMs:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.natemat.pl%2F808aa063b0a9948519b7ef75ab961eed%2C640%2C0%2C0%2C0.jpg&hash=abe4eb75dde315890559e4ccc2be2c1712c30621)
Christ :blink:

Orban looks like a sex pest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on February 20, 2015, 10:01:20 PM
Him and Biden will double date.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 22, 2015, 03:55:17 PM
Fidesz just lost their two-thirds majority in a by election :w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 22, 2015, 04:07:15 PM
He also set a new standard by bringing flowers to a meeting with a female country leader.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 22, 2015, 04:09:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 22, 2015, 03:55:17 PM
Fidesz just lost their two-thirds majority in a by election :w00t:

That's good news... unless they lost the MPs to Jobbik.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on February 22, 2015, 04:11:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 22, 2015, 04:07:15 PM
He also set a new standard by bringing flowers to a meeting with a female country leader.  :lol:

A bottle of wine would have been better? Chocolate? :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 22, 2015, 04:15:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 22, 2015, 04:11:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 22, 2015, 04:07:15 PM
He also set a new standard by bringing flowers to a meeting with a female country leader.  :lol:

A bottle of wine would have been better? Chocolate? :huh:
Any wine or chocolates he brought would be roofied.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Queequeg on February 23, 2015, 07:46:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 28, 2014, 08:47:20 AM
Corruption is on a totally incredible rate.

Orban's previous finance minister, Gyorgy "Hungarians and Japanese are related because their newborns have red spots on their buttocks" Matolcsy has been Central Bank president for a while now.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_spot

I'd be surprised if a lot of Hungarians had it tbh.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 08:03:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 22, 2015, 04:09:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 22, 2015, 03:55:17 PM
Fidesz just lost their two-thirds majority in a by election :w00t:

That's good news... unless they lost the MPs to Jobbik.

By-election was in Veszprem, a modern (by Hungarian standard) city that was a clear and dominating Fidesz victory in the elections in 2014.

I have read an analysis of the turnout compared to the regular elections. It seems everyone who voted opposition in '14 went and voted again, while a big number of Fidesz supporters from '14 didn't bother to show up.

The guy who won was an independent dude, member of a fresh supposedly classic liberal/libertarian group (I haven't checked them out), who got the official support of all leftist oppositon parties, except the greens (LMP).

Worth noting that president of LMP was photograpphed hanging out during election day in the restaurant used as campaign HQ by Fidesz...

But this was not a victory of a libertarian, that would never happen in Hungary, this was the defeat of Fidesz. They have lost a lot of support the last 6 months.

Why now? I think because their insane corruption is now coupled with quite open infighting, while their trademark sweeping arrogance toward everyone is only growing.

And I am quite convinced it is also a big part because of one of the two major terrestial TV channels (RTL) renouncing the quiet agreement of not dealing with politics in exchange of not being bothered by the government (in fairness, it was the government which broke it first). I mean, things like TV ratings wouldn't make you believe this is a main reason, but it cannot be a coincidence that a few months after a country-wide mainstream media outlet starts showing Fidesz controversies (NO such thing happening on that scale before, thanks to the media law of 2011), Fidesz-supports start to decrease.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 08:12:32 AM
One thing regarding Fidesz' slip of popularity and power:

The trigger for that oligarch frenzy I mentioned here, was that Orban has removed all financial support from the private party media, aiming instead to replicate that function via the state television.
This is already in full swing, with number of channels expanded including a dedicated news channel, etc.

A journalist made a VERY good point about what this is revealing: this is a fine system, but what happens after they lose an election? Control of the state media will go to the new government (the state TV especially has a nice tradition of always being the PR team of the current party in power), while their own private media empire will be in shambles, basically cut off and eliminated.

There is only one possible logical explanation for this move: Orban has stopped calculating with an election defeat as a possibility.

Which is BTW, understandable, since the moment they lose grip on the prosecutors office and the judges, a lot of them will go to prison.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 08:34:48 AM
Polish media reporting that the European Commission is looking into the Orban's atomic deal with Putin on account of it being illegal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 23, 2015, 08:45:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 08:34:48 AM
Polish media reporting that the European Commission is looking into the Orban's atomic deal with Putin on account of it being illegal.

Well, good thing then that Orban signed a law making the details of the deal secret for 30 years. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 23, 2015, 08:47:07 AM
Quote from: Syt on February 23, 2015, 08:45:47 AM
Well, good thing then that Orban signed a law making the details of the deal secret for 30 years. :P

It has a secret clause giving Hungary Transylvania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 23, 2015, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 08:12:32 AM
There is only one possible logical explanation for this move: Orban has stopped calculating with an election defeat as a possibility.

Which is BTW, understandable, since the moment they lose grip on the prosecutors office and the judges, a lot of them will go to prison.

Well that doesn't make things unstable at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 23, 2015, 08:59:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 08:34:48 AM
Polish media reporting that the European Commission is looking into the Orban's atomic deal with Putin on account of it being illegal.

:tinfoil: Proof that Brussels (EU/NATO) is worse than Moscow!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 09:10:28 AM
There is a long article today on the biggest news site, detailing supposed inside informations from the diplomatic circles, many of whom have been layed off recently when Orban's protege and former press secretary (also major douchebag) took over the Foreign Ministry without any diplomatic experience whatsoever, unless you count being sent to eastern dictatorships to beg for money in the last year or so counts as such.

These guys claim that even while they were there, they had basically no influence on foreign policy. It was decided by Orban and his closest private circle and they only received instructions.
Also the layoffs prompted many embassy workers to apply self-censorship when reporting from their host country's reactions to certain things, so they think most of the initial backlash for the change toward Russia just completely blindsided Orban, and/or he ignored them, as -in classic autocratic style I may add- he didn't care for any hint of criticism.

Until recently, there is. These guys claim by the time Putin arrived, Orban already had second thoughts (which I think is just the good old "it is not the monarch, but the evil ministers!" reaction - Orban played the doormat without a sign of discontent). Hence his hurriedly organised mea culpa tour - before Putin he was in Kiev and Belgrade, then of course the Polish trip which was an utter counterproductive disaster.

So, assumption/rumor is that the Polish fiasco has finally sunk it in for Orban that he has isolated Hungary, and need to steer clear of Russia.


Well, maybe. Only problem is, that goes straight against his usual practice. Because in internal politics, when he runs into problems, he just switches a couple of gears up rams the wall again, being used to his internal enemies having less resolve to bring things to the brink than he does. I am afraid he will just follow that path in foreign policy as well and will go full retard.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 09:11:25 AM
Current Foreign Minister of Hungary:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.belfoldihirek.com%2FSzijjrt%2520Pter%2520hivatalos.jpg&hash=66341a4aee2a7c43f2445e3660ebfab7e8a66661)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 09:16:49 AM
He looks like a buff 16 y.o.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 23, 2015, 09:20:04 AM
Pff, Austria's looks younger. :P

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmeia.gv.at%2Ffileadmin%2F_processed_%2Fcsm_Sebastian_Kurz_0614_ae6b690f01.jpg&hash=a5616a74939dd12e42ecaf4aa1a799a12948a1e0)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 09:26:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 09:16:49 AM
He looks like a buff 16 y.o.  :lol:

Here you go:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.femina.hu%2Fhirhatter%2Fszijjarto_furcsa_foto%2Fszijjarto_kicsi.jpg&hash=a716fb372ed10bd45b81f7c4d3dbce2b0c6faa35)


He is an avid futsal player, his futsal club has been receiving so many sponshorships that it puts top tier football teams to shame.

And he filled the ranks of the foreign ministry with his teammates.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 23, 2015, 09:28:46 AM
I have just learned two amazing new things.

First that there is a variety of football called 'futsal' and that there is a dedicated facility and futsal community in my own city.  Who knew?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
How much opposition does Orban have from other political parties/leaders? I would think there are a lot of people who have had enough with Russia during Soviet days and don't want to get to entrenched again. If I remember right, Hungary was one of the earlier nations to slowly and peacefully move away from Soviet dominance. I'm just surprised that politics there has the nation cozying up so much with Russia under Putin. What's the reason? Is it the politics that agree with Putin? Is it mainly Orban and his crowd or is it a more widespread move? I can understand the economics side if Hungary is so heavily dependent on Russian energy, but Orban would seem to be going well beyond that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
How much opposition does Orban have from other political parties/leaders? I would think there are a lot of people who have had enough with Russia during Soviet days and don't want to get to entrenched again. If I remember right, Hungary was one of the earlier nations to slowly and peacefully move away from Soviet dominance. I'm just surprised that politics there has the nation cozying up so much with Russia under Putin. What's the reason? Is it the politics that agree with Putin? Is it mainly Orban and his crowd or is it a more widespread move? I can understand the economics side if Hungary is so heavily dependent on Russian energy, but Orban would seem to be going well beyond that.

There still is anywhere between one and two million voters who will believe whatever Orban tells them, on a "we have always been at war with Eurasia" 1984 level.

Other than that, their media portrays Putin how he potraits himself: the last bastion of traditional values. Coupled with a general negativity toward anyone who does things better than us (US and most of EU), it works to some level.

As for the opposition, the only properly organised rival is Jobbik and they are financed by Russia, so there you go.

The rest of the oppisition (varying degrees of leftists) range from incompetent to complacent. I think they have been bought off: they are just way too silent when one government debacle follows the next.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 09:46:16 AM
Quote from: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
How much opposition does Orban have from other political parties/leaders? I would think there are a lot of people who have had enough with Russia during Soviet days and don't want to get to entrenched again. If I remember right, Hungary was one of the earlier nations to slowly and peacefully move away from Soviet dominance. I'm just surprised that politics there has the nation cozying up so much with Russia under Putin. What's the reason? Is it the politics that agree with Putin? Is it mainly Orban and his crowd or is it a more widespread move? I can understand the economics side if Hungary is so heavily dependent on Russian energy, but Orban would seem to be going well beyond that.

It's more complex than that. If you discount his U-turn and alliance with Russia, he represents the anti-communist part of Hungarian legacy. This is the part that is so difficult to understand to a Westerner about countries like Hungary or Poland.

Now this is a gross oversimplification (and this is just the extremes I am talking about here) but when communism fell, it was mainly the former commies (especially the younger generation) who turned out to represent liberal, Western ideals - part of it was self-serving, sure, but I think part of it was genuine - after all they were kids of former apparatchiks who ended up being most exposed to the West, through (limited) foreign exchange programmes and scholarships. And, unsurprisingly, being more likely to be well educated and to know a foreign language, they quickly became the new professional elite even if you discount the "nomenclatura" effect and cronyism - they were simply, objectively and meritocratically better.

The opposite extreme were uneducated, poor masses who did not catch up on the gravy train of capitalist transformation - they were already very supportive (and supported by) the traditional institutions such as the churches (which, at least in Poland, remained quite strong and came out of the communism era as pretty much the only non-government-controlled influential social institutions - there were no NGOs under commusnim). These people often represented the anti-communism opposition during the communism era and their xenophobia - and, ultimately, resentment for liberal democracy - has only deepened over the years.

Now, of course, subsequent generations (such as mine) did not clearly fit these two groups but one way or another, you had to pick your tribe. As it happens, the second tribe quickly realised it has much more in common with Putin than it does with the EU - and only very strong historical resentment (like that in Poland) can prevent them from acknowledging that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 23, 2015, 09:52:51 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2015, 09:28:46 AM
I have just learned two amazing new things.

First that there is a variety of football called 'futsal' and that there is a dedicated facility and futsal community in my own city.  Who knew?

Futsal = indoor football
Just in case it is not clear for everybody.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 23, 2015, 09:54:04 AM
That seems straightforward enough.  Thanks Mart.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on February 23, 2015, 09:56:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 08:12:32 AM

A journalist made a VERY good point about what this is revealing: this is a fine system, but what happens after they lose an election? Control of the state media will go to the new government (the state TV especially has a nice tradition of always being the PR team of the current party in power), while their own private media empire will be in shambles, basically cut off and eliminated.

There is only one possible logical explanation for this move: Orban has stopped calculating with an election defeat as a possibility.


There are two other possibilities I think:

-they are stupid.
-The benefits of possibly staying in power a bit longer through better media control are worth the costs when they eventually lose power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2015, 09:34:46 AM

There still is anywhere between one and two million voters who will believe whatever Orban tells them, on a "we have always been at war with Eurasia" 1984 level.

Other than that, their media portrays Putin how he potraits himself: the last bastion of traditional values. Coupled with a general negativity toward anyone who does things better than us (US and most of EU), it works to some level.

As for the opposition, the only properly organised rival is Jobbik and they are financed by Russia, so there you go.

The rest of the oppisition (varying degrees of leftists) range from incompetent to complacent. I think they have been bought off: they are just way too silent when one government debacle follows the next.

Well, between what you and Martinus say I guess that pretty much answers the question. That the main political opposition is also supported by Russia is sad. So there must be at least some good sized opposition among many people like the two of you? To be sliding back to the old ways but wrapped up in a new look has to have at least some real opposition, small as it might be. Any chance of new leaders emerging to oppose this trend of being in bed with Russia and Putin?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 12:41:49 PM
Quote from: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 11:06:49 AMWell, between what you and Martinus say I guess that pretty much answers the question. That the main political opposition is also supported by Russia is sad. So there must be at least some good sized opposition among many people like the two of you? To be sliding back to the old ways but wrapped up in a new look has to have at least some real opposition, small as it might be. Any chance of new leaders emerging to oppose this trend of being in bed with Russia and Putin?

Well, that's also a complex issue.

I don't know enough about Hungarian politics, but at least in Poland there is a right wing clinch that is not easy to break (the only difference between us and Hungary is that Poles are much more russophobic). So you have a centre-right (but with a very strong conservative wing) ruling party (PO) and even-more-to-the-right nationalistic/religious main opposition party (PiS).

They effectively dominate the political scene, sharing 70-80% of the vote (if not necessarily the popular opinion - 20-30% of people feel like they have no political representation) between themselves (and some ephemereal satelittes that sometimes split off them only to rejoin). At least in Poland, PiS has also appropriated many socialist policies and slogans (they represent the unsuccesful poor people, as I said before), but continue being staunchly conservative on social and political issues.

In that part that is left to share between other parties you have several wildly different political choices, not all of them leftist (e.g. libertarians) but even among the left the problem is that there continues (despite many efforts to date) a significant divide into two main streams.

One is the remnants of the post-communists who used to hold power for a while in the 90s (they were very well entrenched and managed to regain power after the initial disarray of the "democratic opposition") but then committed a spectacular PR suicide in the early 2000s because of a major corruption scandal. Since then they failed to come back into power but also failed to die - because they represent the interests of the nomenclatura, retired military and police officers etc. Often they are not very leftist in the political sense, especially the "old guard" (e.g. they are for death penalty, support CIA torturing people and the like). They keep getting 5-15% in general elections, but recently fell on hard times.

The other are various attempts to revive a leftist-liberal (sorta like Lib Dems in the UK, in terms of politics) movement of people who take their political heritage from the democratic opposition of the 1980s. This movement is not really a single party but a cavalcade of constantly dying, reforming, and splitting parties, with one or two occassionally gaining dominance. The popular movement of the guy I voted for in last elections fits this stream - but since then he has committed a number of blunders and his party will probably not survive till the next. They poll around 2-10% depending on how lucky they get.

There have been attempts to reconcile both leftist streams but so far without much succes (as their leaders called each other during a particularly heated parliamentary debate they see each other as "post-communist war criminals" and "pot-smoking degenerates" respectively).

So, to answer your question, we have plenty of generals on the left, just not enough soldiers. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 12:45:28 PM
It also doesnt help that we have a voting system that favours larger parties.

While Parliamentary elections for Seym are proportional, a party needs to gain 5% of national vote to even get past the post - and then mandates are split according to a system that favours larger parties as all fractions get rounded up or down in a way favouring the strongest.

Senate, on the other hand, is first-past-the-post and out of 100 Senators, only 3 are NOT from PO or PiS, so it is even worse.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 23, 2015, 12:47:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 12:45:28 PM
While Parliamentary elections for Seym are proportional, a party needs to gain 5% of national vote to even get past the post - and then mandates are split according to a system that favours larger parties as all fractions get rounded up or down in a way favouring the strongest.

The Left clearly needs some kind of big tent party if they want to have any power then.  The 'Liberal Communists'.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on February 23, 2015, 01:08:10 PM
No place for your run-of-the-mill European social-democrats in Poland?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on February 23, 2015, 01:11:33 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2015, 07:46:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 28, 2014, 08:47:20 AM
Corruption is on a totally incredible rate.

Orban's previous finance minister, Gyorgy "Hungarians and Japanese are related because their newborns have red spots on their buttocks" Matolcsy has been Central Bank president for a while now.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_spot

I'd be surprised if a lot of Hungarians had it tbh.

That reminds me of something I heard once.  A classmate of mine back in the day (who claimed some Native American heritage) talked about some physiological trait that apparently identifies those with NA background.  Forgot what it was though (it was rather obscure).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 01:44:34 PM
Marty, interesting. Thanks for the info on things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 23, 2015, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: celedhring on February 23, 2015, 01:08:10 PM
No place for your run-of-the-mill European social-democrats in Poland?

Well, the "lib dems" are closest to that, but given that both commies and right wingers poach the "poor vote" (and Poles are naturally anti-social, as anything socialist has a bad vibe) there isn't just enough vote to make the difference.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2015, 01:31:03 AM
Things continue to go well in Hungary:
QuoteEntire Hungarian village for rent: includes horses, cows and a bus stop
Mayor of the village of Megyer tries to raise funds for his village and says leaseholder can even be his deputy

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.guim.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fw-620%2Fh--%2Fq-95%2F3302f4494f955933ac2b8f233b809609c359bcbf%2F0_0_3846_2307%2F1000.jpg&hash=3a59ac45ec2c8cd67a4368db93eff595376df0ef)
A community-owned horse is seen in a village east of Budapest. The village of Megyer is being put up for rent by its mayor - along with its six horses, two cows and a bus stop Photograph: Bernadett Szabo / Reuters/REUTERS
Agence France-Presse
Wednesday 25 February 2015 05.42 GMT

A Hungarian mayor is putting his entire village up for rent to put it on the map and bring in some cash, even offering the deputy mayorship as part of the bargain.

For 210,000 forints - around 700 euros - a day, interested parties can rent out all facilities in the pretty but largely deserted village of Megyer, which has a population of 18 and is located 180 kms (110 miles) southwest of Budapest.

An advertisement posted online says rental includes use of Megyer's four streets, two of them asphalted and two gravel, as well as the mayor's office, the cultural centre, the bus-stop, and seven furnished "peasant-style" houses.

"A law I brought in means an outsider can also become deputy mayor for a weekend, and even change the street names if you want," Megyer Mayor Kristof Pajer told AFP by telephone Tuesday.

Tenants can also use the village cooperative's six horses, two cows, three sheep, poultry house and four hectares of arable land.

A 42-year-old engineer from Budapest, Pajer said he fell in love with tiny Megyer when he first passed by it by chance ten years ago.

A year later, soon after buying a property there, he was elected mayor.

Pajer told AFP his goal was to save Megyer from the slow death suffered by many remote Hungarian villages whose young people leave for Budapest or abroad as soon as they can.

"Megyer was always poor, but it has kept its charming rustic atmosphere," says Pajer, who lives and works mostly in Budapest but visits the village once a week.

Only five of the village's twenty houses are lived in around the year.

"I hope the advertisement will bring Megyer some revenue, but more importantly some attention," Pajer said.

Also searching for images, I think I'd define 'charming' differently:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsegitsekesuli.hu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F08%2Fmegyer21.jpg&hash=8f218f7893f67ac05c21d9064e61b4069dbf0816)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 25, 2015, 02:32:16 AM
Having met some Hungarians, this might be simply charming relative to the country-wide standard. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 25, 2015, 05:07:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 25, 2015, 02:32:16 AM
Having met some Hungarians, this might be simply charming relative to the country-wide standard. :P

Having been to the parts of Poland outside of Warsaw many times over the past ten years (unlike you), let me tell you that the rural landscape is very much similar in the two countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 25, 2015, 05:11:46 AM
Quote from: KRonn on February 23, 2015, 01:44:34 PM
Marty, interesting. Thanks for the info on things.

I don't know how much he elaborated on this, but I am pretty sure the communist heritage is a big factor in both countries. What do I mean by that? The fact that even the "right" is pretty much out there in the left when it comes to classic economic policy classifications.

So, in Hungary at least, the difference between the major, more populist parties, is the ideological cover which they offer for their policy of high redistribution and state involvement in the economy. The left offers a spectrum of adhering to Western values and intention to catch up culturally, the right offers bigotric nationalistic pride and martyr complex.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 25, 2015, 05:17:42 AM
And forget the to-rent village, this is Hungary in 2015: a hospital's children's ward uses shopping carts to transfer sick children:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.delmagyar.hu%2Fgyerekszallitasa_klinikan_-_bevasarlokocsival_%2Fcikk%2F242%2F2419065%2F2.jpg&hash=9687748f7ecbf063881edc473df75efbb2ee8f3b)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on February 25, 2015, 10:34:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2015, 05:11:46 AM

I don't know how much he elaborated on this, but I am pretty sure the communist heritage is a big factor in both countries. What do I mean by that? The fact that even the "right" is pretty much out there in the left when it comes to classic economic policy classifications.

So, in Hungary at least, the difference between the major, more populist parties, is the ideological cover which they offer for their policy of high redistribution and state involvement in the economy. The left offers a spectrum of adhering to Western values and intention to catch up culturally, the right offers bigotric nationalistic pride and martyr complex.

Yeah, from what you guys have said, I'm finding that the old communist ways are still pretty ingrained in many political leaders and people. I wouldn't have thought that the case, like I said before, but the reasoning you speak about tells why pretty well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 25, 2015, 12:09:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2015, 05:07:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 25, 2015, 02:32:16 AM
Having met some Hungarians, this might be simply charming relative to the country-wide standard. :P

Having been to the parts of Poland outside of Warsaw many times over the past ten years (unlike you), let me tell you that the rural landscape is very much similar in the two countries.

I was just poking fun at you.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 25, 2015, 12:12:01 PM
I wouldn't necessarily agree with what Tamas says - at least in Poland, the anti-socialist "libertarian" undercurrent is very strong in some quarters, but it is not the defining political issue (i.e. you can find people with such views both on the "right" and on the "left" - with issues such as religion, gay rights, abortion, attitude towards the Western culture etc. informing the political divide into the left and the right much more strongly).

It could be that Hungary is different or that Tamas considers pretty much everything left of Hayek to be "communist". :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 25, 2015, 12:44:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 25, 2015, 12:12:01 PM
I wouldn't necessarily agree with what Tamas says - at least in Poland, the anti-socialist "libertarian" undercurrent is very strong in some quarters, but it is not the defining political issue (i.e. you can find people with such views both on the "right" and on the "left" - with issues such as religion, gay rights, abortion, attitude towards the Western culture etc. informing the political divide into the left and the right much more strongly).

It could be that Hungary is different or that Tamas considers pretty much everything left of Hayek to be "communist". :P

There is a clear divide on cultural issues like abortion etc. Not nearly as much divide on economic issues. The libertarian wing existing on the fringes in Poland is superstrong compared to the 0.5% support they have in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 27, 2015, 10:15:31 AM
Orban just had his "state of the country" speech.

I would like to point out two things:

One that will be taken up by foreing press for sure: he is painting doom and gloom for Europe, and declares that we are suffering under a great migration of people and cannot let ourselves be overwhelmed (he means the Kosovian exodus happening, which is Public Enemy Numero Uno for them right now).
Plus, he said "The Hungarian people by nature is politically incorrect, in other words, sane"

Second is more a sad and funny thing:
During their first government, and a couple of years after it (so more than ten years ago), their favourite buzzword was "polgar". It can mean "citizen" but in a societal context it basically means the middle class. They were "building the polgars' Hungary".

They DROPPED this slogan OVERNIGHT around ten years ago, starting to talk about them being with "the plebs" (I did quote that from Orban).

Fast forward to this week, days after their serious election defeat on Sunday, and now all the Fidesz dignitaries started using "polgar" again all the time, and even Orban in his speech today now after ten years defends the "polgars' Hungary" like as if we he never stopped using that word. Clearly there has been a new directive from the campaign minds. We have always been in war with Eurasia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 27, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
Yeah I can definitely see that 'polgar' business slipping past the international press.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on February 27, 2015, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 27, 2015, 10:15:31 AM
Fast forward to this week, days after their serious election defeat on Sunday, and now all the Fidesz dignitaries started using "polgar" again all the time, and even Orban in his speech today now after ten years defends the "polgars' Hungary" like as if we he never stopped using that word. Clearly there has been a new directive from the campaign minds. We have always been in war with Eurasia.

I wouldn't see anything nefarious in that though.  Political parties like to have consistent messages, so they will in fact send out memos on what kind of specific language to use.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 27, 2015, 01:40:59 PM
IIRC, the Polgar sisters used to be the only female chess players ranked grand master. :nerd:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 02, 2015, 11:41:20 AM
So the upcoming investment in the new nuclear power plant (well its an extension of the old one but its basically as big as a new one) has been made state secret for 30 years. The particularities of it, I mean.

The biggest online news site tried short video interviews with Fidesz MPs seeing what they know about the bill they will shortly vote on authorising this. Basically, they have no idea what it is about. They were told to vote yes, so they will.

This is the biggest investment and debt in the country's entire history, and nobody apart from Orban and his closest circle (plus the Russians of course) will know anything meaningful about it.

Boggles the mind.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 10, 2015, 05:09:56 AM
Earlier here I mentioned how puzzled everyone has been over the apparent urgency Hungary has made the nucular power plant deal with Russia. All the public knew that there were considerations on doing the expansion project, then without much forewarning Orban went to Moscow, and a very short time after, the deal with Russia and Rosatom were announced. And it has been going through the steps like shit through goose ever since. The details are state secret, but from the Russian side we know details of the contract like a Russian comittee will have the right to influence electricity prices in Hungary once the power plant is done.

One of the rumours about this haphazard way of becoming a Russian satellite has been that Orban probably has a spotty past, he might had been an informant to the communist secret service, and the Russians probably have the file on that. A suspicion raised and kept alive by the fact that alone from the post-communist East Euro states, Hungary still hasn't made secret service observation files public.

And you might also recall this recent upheveal caused by Orban's closest-ally-since-high-school getting into a fight over the spoils with him and going berserk.

Well this oligarch-ally, Simicska was at it again to the press, very strongly hinting by a few anecdotes that he is suspecting that Orban WAS an informant, and that he also believes Russian blackmail with that is behind the cozy-ing up with Russia, a move which he quite openly hates.


In other news, Hungary is having his own little finance-sector meltdown. Couple of weeks ago the most renowned brokerage firm, Buda-Cash was found to have a LOT of money missing due to foul play, and a lot of small time savers are also heavily affected due to the firm running a bunch of savings cooperatives accross the country. My grandparents' would be as well but the family was fast enough to get their money out before all accounts were locked due to pending investigations.

And yesterday the investment arm of a financial company, Quaestor, filed for bankrupcy-protection, claiming they couldn't pay out people selling their bonds with the company following the Buda-Cash scandal.

Well apparently that is no surprise since they released about 500 million euros worth of fake bonds, all that to pay back their earlier bond releases since the company was very much in deficit for quite a while now.
Criminal charges are expected in both cases.

How did the two companies went through several audits and permission-granting procedures over the years without problem? Needless to say they both had extensive political connections. Buda-Cash with both sides, Quaestor's money was on Fidesz.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 07:36:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 10, 2015, 05:09:56 AM
And it has been going through the steps like shit through goose ever since.

:lol: :thumbsup:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chud.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2FPatton4.png&hash=64e6724380b24b6f405e1f9a79df5aee8e06b550)

People really need to use Pattonisms more often.

QuoteThe details are state secret, but from the Russian side we know details of the contract like a Russian comittee will have the right to influence electricity prices in Hungary once the power plant is done.

What exactly is the justification for a simple power plant being a state secret?  What possible security issue would be at stake for simply knowing the financials?  It is pretty funny how many "state secrets" are nothing more than shields to stop embarrassing information from getting out rather than actual sensitive information.  I presume the paranoid and conspiracy theorists in Hungary are going to town with this one.  You might as well just announce 'it will be a massive scandal if anybody ever finds out what we just agreed to.'

QuoteOne of the rumours about this haphazard way of becoming a Russian satellite has been that Orban probably has a spotty past, he might had been an informant to the communist secret service, and the Russians probably have the file on that. A suspicion raised and kept alive by the fact that alone from the post-communist East Euro states, Hungary still hasn't made secret service observation files public.

Maybe he and Putin used to work together in the old days.

QuoteAnd you might also recall this recent upheveal caused by Orban's closest-ally-since-high-school getting into a fight over the spoils with him and going berserk.

Well this oligarch-ally, Simicska was at it again to the press, very strongly hinting by a few anecdotes that he is suspecting that Orban WAS an informant, and that he also believes Russian blackmail with that is behind the cozy-ing up with Russia, a move which he quite openly hates.

So Orban's big face saving strategy is to doubledown?  Seems a little too....conspiracy theory.  Not even Orban would think that was a good long term strategy.

QuoteIn other news, Hungary is having his own little finance-sector meltdown. Couple of weeks ago the most renowned brokerage firm, Buda-Cash was found to have a LOT of money missing due to foul play, and a lot of small time savers are also heavily affected due to the firm running a bunch of savings cooperatives accross the country. My grandparents' would be as well but the family was fast enough to get their money out before all accounts were locked due to pending investigations.

And yesterday the investment arm of a financial company, Quaestor, filed for bankrupcy-protection, claiming they couldn't pay out people selling their bonds with the company following the Buda-Cash scandal.

Well apparently that is no surprise since they released about 500 million euros worth of fake bonds, all that to pay back their earlier bond releases since the company was very much in deficit for quite a while now.
Criminal charges are expected in both cases.

How did the two companies went through several audits and permission-granting procedures over the years without problem? Needless to say they both had extensive political connections. Buda-Cash with both sides, Quaestor's money was on Fidesz.

Banks are good at avoiding oversight.  Well with everything else going on Hungary better hope she doesn't need German assistance.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on March 10, 2015, 10:23:16 AM
More messes. Too bad as it doesn't look like Hungary will be weaned from such heavy Russian influence and control anytime soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2015, 05:42:38 AM
Two new, quite descriptive bits on these finance scandals:

-at Buda-Cash, one of the execs bought 3000 pieces of state bonds for cca. 190 million euros for a "client", and he took the money away from the accounts of other clients to do that, without them knowing, obviously. The fake client had to be hard to spot for the authorities, I mean, he is supposed to be one of the richest guys in the country so no thinning the herd there, plus his name was Karacsony Miklos which translate to Christmas Klaus...

-at Qauestor, the leader of the company has a company in Moscow for "trading bacon". There are two other owners: a guy recently arrested for all kinds of shady private dealings involving Russian and Hungarian companies (more importantly, until his arrest, he was one of the main faces of the "Eastern Opening" the government's big campaign to do business with the east), AND the mayor of Orban's home village, who rose from a total nobody to a billionaire businessman during Orban's current reign, and is widely considered the frontman for Orban's "secret stash"

Now this mayor fellow did not include this Moscow company in his official wealth report he had to file as a politician. And this is the guy who recently added 1 billion forints (more than 3 million euros) to this report saying "he forgot about it".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 13, 2015, 04:13:23 AM
uish.org/forums/index.php/board,1.0.html

QuoteEU blocks Hungary-Russia nuclear deal

The EU has blocked Hungary's €12bn nuclear deal with Russia, a decision that is likely to inflame tensions between the Kremlin and Brussels.
The ruling from the European Commission is a setback for Viktor Orban, Hungary's prime minister, who has courted the Kremlin despite the conflict in Ukraine.

Russia and Hungary agreed last year to build two 1,200 megawatt nuclear reactors in the town of Paks, 75 miles south of Budapest, in a deal that would have extended Moscow's commercial reach deep into central Europe. Contracts for designing, building and maintaining the plants were awarded to a subsidiary of Russia's state-owned nuclear group Rosatom in December.

But critics of Mr Orban feared the deal would increase Hungary's already heavy energy dependence on Russia.

Many EU officials also expressed concern that Moscow was using energy policy to divide Europe and undermine the bloc's consensus on sanctions imposed on Russia over its actions in eastern Ukraine.

Arguments have raged for weeks over the technical, financial and fuel provision agreements of the contracts with Rosatom. All nuclear fuel supply contracts signed by EU member states must be approved by Euratom, which imposes financial and technical requirements on fuel suppliers.

In the end, Euratom refused to approve Hungary's plans to import nuclear fuel exclusively from Russia. Hungary appealed against the decision but, according to three people close to the talks, the European Commission has now thrown its weight behind Euratom's rejection of the contract.

The decision, details of which were kept secret, came at a meeting in Brussels last week of all 28 EU commissioners, including Hungary's Tibor Navracsics.

The result is to block the whole Paks II expansion. To revive it, Hungary would need to negotiate a new fuel contract or pursue legal action against the commission.
The ruling throws a spanner in the works of a project that Mr Orban has put at the centre of his strategy to build closer links with Russia.

"If the Russians now refuse to modify the original contracts, this will be the end of the road for the project," said Javor Benedek, a Hungarian member of the European Parliament's Green group. "The report is very clear that the fuel supply agreement does not comply with European law."

Mr Orban won €10bn in financial backing for the scheme from President Vladimir Putin of Russia in January 2014.

Budapest's decision to award the bulk of contracts for the two reactors to Rosatom without a public competition prompted the commission to launch a probe into whether the deal violated public procurement and state aid rules. The investigations are continuing.

The Financial Times in February reported that EU experts were examining aspects of the deal, including the role of Rosatom subsidiaries to supply reactor fuel.

The two reactors currently in operation at Paks produce 40 per cent of the country's electricity and the central European country relies on Moscow for 60 per cent of its gas imports and 80 per cent of oil imports.

Almost all details of the contracts have been kept secret and Hungary's parliament last week extended official secrecy provisions on the contracts for 30 years, citing national security concerns.

A spokesman for the government said there were no obstacles to the deal proceeding as planned.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2015, 04:37:43 AM
Yeah well they blocked the clause that only Russians can sell fuel to the new plant. So its more like doing a favour to Western suppliers, since Russia and Hungary can just reneg on that part and sign a new contract.

Question is: will Russia want that, will they insist on getting all the perks, or they will just use the excuse to dance out of the deal when they are short on money anyways? (They would be the ones giving the huge-ass loan to Hungary).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: frunk on March 13, 2015, 04:55:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 13, 2015, 04:37:43 AM
Yeah well they blocked the clause that only Russians can sell fuel to the new plant. So its more like doing a favour to Western suppliers, since Russia and Hungary can just reneg on that part and sign a new contract.

Question is: will Russia want that, will they insist on getting all the perks, or they will just use the excuse to dance out of the deal when they are short on money anyways? (They would be the ones giving the huge-ass loan to Hungary).

I'm assuming that the deal is a form of money laundering, so I'd expect a modified deal to go forward provided Putin thinks he has some other way of guaranteeing that Orban will strictly "buy" Russian. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2015, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: frunk on March 13, 2015, 04:55:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 13, 2015, 04:37:43 AM
Yeah well they blocked the clause that only Russians can sell fuel to the new plant. So its more like doing a favour to Western suppliers, since Russia and Hungary can just reneg on that part and sign a new contract.

Question is: will Russia want that, will they insist on getting all the perks, or they will just use the excuse to dance out of the deal when they are short on money anyways? (They would be the ones giving the huge-ass loan to Hungary).

I'm assuming that the deal is a form of money laundering, so I'd expect a modified deal to go forward provided Putin thinks he has some other way of guaranteeing that Orban will strictly "buy" Russian.

Yeah.

Also it is looking more and more likely that Orban and his circle are helping the Russians to push out all other gas providers in the industrial sector.

There is a highly suspicious company, MET, with various offshore companies linked to Orban's inner circle owning it. They are the ones buying and re-selling most of the incoming gas already (I am blurry on the details ATM).
And nobody knows for how much they are buying it (from Russia especially) since that is no public info, and conviniently, the state gas price regulator office can request no info on it.

I can dig up more details on that, but the basi scenario seems to be: Orban makes concessions to Putin. His ( his friends') gas company gets cheap gas from Russia, they sell it back to the Hungarian state on market prices, and they pocket the difference.
Even if remotely true I believe it constitutes treason.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2015, 09:31:31 AM
Latest poll shows Jobbik growing steadily.

Fidesz 21%
Jobbik 18%
Socialists 12%
Ex-Socialist PM's party 4%
Green Fidesz-creation fake party (LMP) 3%
Assorted lefties 2% altogether
Undecided 37%


So it is becoming safe to conclude, that the Hungarian people have taken a good hard look at the Russia-friendly moderate national socialist party's reign, and is disapproving. In their righteous disapproval, the people are turning to a Russia-financed, radical national socialist party to make things better.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1527.gif&hash=0dba3ace0e20a45d13d4119ff335bbdd1b3cfb52)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on March 17, 2015, 09:44:35 AM
So it is becoming safe to conclude, that the Hungarian people have taken a good hard look at the Russia-friendly moderate national socialist party's reign, and is disapproving. In their righteous disapproval, the people are turning to a Russia-financed, radical national socialist party to make things better.

Ouch.... So not really much difference in the two, just the name of the party and leader.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Caliga on March 17, 2015, 09:45:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 07:36:01 AM
:lol: :thumbsup:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chud.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2FPatton4.png&hash=64e6724380b24b6f405e1f9a79df5aee8e06b550)

People really need to use Pattonisms more often.
Valmy, you magnificent bastard.... I READ YOUR POST!!!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 17, 2015, 10:07:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2015, 09:31:31 AM
Latest poll shows Jobbik growing steadily.

Fidesz 21%
Jobbik 18%
Socialists 12%
Ex-Socialist PM's party 4%
Green Fidesz-creation fake party (LMP) 3%
Assorted lefties 2% altogether
Undecided 37%


So it is becoming safe to conclude, that the Hungarian people have taken a good hard look at the Russia-friendly moderate national socialist party's reign, and is disapproving. In their righteous disapproval, the people are turning to a Russia-financed, radical national socialist party to make things better.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1527.gif&hash=0dba3ace0e20a45d13d4119ff335bbdd1b3cfb52)

Fascists 21%
Other Fascists 18%
Socialists 12%
Other Socialists 4%
Insane Leftist Party that is actually Fascist Puppet 3%
Other Leftists 2%
Looking for Work in Germany 37%

Damn I can see why you immigrated :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2015, 10:16:28 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 18, 2015, 09:09:32 AM
Although it has been taken down since then either by Facebook or the creators, this morning Fidelitas, the youth organisation of Fidesz, announced the start of their "provocateur-watching" Facebook page.
They wanted people to send photos and personal information of "known provocateurs" attending anti-government demonstrations "posing as civilians" so that the you could put up said photo and personal information on the public Facebook page.

And they had like a proper press conference assembled to introduce it and shit.

Luckily Internet people quickly trolled the FB page into oblivion, so the fusion of 21st century technology with 1950s attitudes is not complete YET.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on March 18, 2015, 10:33:31 AM
Wow, old Soviet style intimidation and retribution coupled with 21st century tech! No wonder it got so badly trolled down.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 19, 2015, 06:21:10 AM
A memo made for Juncker in December got leaked. It was about preparing him for negotiations on the EU handouts to Hungary and why they were delayed.

According to the Hungarian government, payments have been resumed since then, but the interesting part is that the Hungarian delegation threatened the EU/shriked to the EU about the imminent collapse of the Hungarian budget if payments were not resumed.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 19, 2015, 12:47:24 PM
Quote from: KRonn on March 18, 2015, 10:33:31 AM
Wow, old Soviet style intimidation and retribution coupled with 21st century tech! No wonder it got so badly trolled down.

The ombudsam/whatever guy in charge of having an opinion on data privacy issues declared that this idea looks quite illegal.

Reaction? Now the big Fidesz party also supports the idea of posting people's photos and personal data on public Facebook as "provocateurs".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 19, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
Ombudsam? :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 19, 2015, 06:16:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 19, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
Ombudsam? :mad:

Ecaxtyl
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2015, 10:24:18 AM
If the government survives this Quaestor-scandal (and I would put good money on that it will) Hungar is truly hopeless.

Here is an executive summary on how things unfolded from cca. 2009 onward, based on the snippets we have learned. Bear with the length please, I will stick to the basics, but it will make you feel lucky you live in a country with civilised politics (Mono and Marty exempted I guess)


-the Quaestor boss cozied up to the Fidesz government. He did the same with the socialist government as well, but not nearly as successfully as to these guys

-He invested heavily in Orban's hobby: football

-Somewhere along the line, he starts common businesses with the foreign ministry

-as Szijjarto, present Foreign Minister gets closer to being the FM, the relationship deepens, and the office ("Hungarian National Trading House") created to further Hungarian business interests not only does business via Quaestor companies, but also keeps its budget-money at Quaestor, via Quaestor bonds (trivia: this is the same government who nationalised private pension funds because "stock markets are dangerous"). Around 12 million euros.

-Quaestor had been basically running a sort of pyramid game for X years, where they piss the money away on some channels and basically issued bonds to cover payments on old ones, and by the last couple of years they basically release fake bonds. How this went through the Central Bank's approval process is still not known. Damages are around 500 million euros IIRC

-Few weeks ago, when shit REALLY starts to pile up, the Quaestor boss assembles a crisis meeting of the leadership, but assures them that he shall talk to FM Szijjarto, who will surely sort things out and find a way to keep the company going. He (the boss) shall write a letter to PM Orban and have Szijjarto deliver it

-Apparently, when Szijjarto heard the news of imminent Quaestor-doom, he did not save his illicit business partner, but ran for the hills: he ordered all Foreign Ministry money to be removed from Quaestor accounts

-That 12 million euros that near-broke Quaestor had to provide was for sure the final nail in their coffin. 4 days after they wire the money back, they publicly announce they have requested bankrupcy proceedings against each other. Well, their bond-business child company, at least

-Which turns out to be a lie. IIRC they aren't officially unde bankrupcy control even now, as it took them more than a week to file it after the public announcement

-Smalltime investors try to get their money but in vain of course

-Police starts investigation. Couple of days ago, the Budapest-based team is dispersed and a new made of investigators called in from outside the capital take over the case

-Quaestor-boss is still not under arrest to this day. The public isn't even sure if he is still in the country or not.

-While the more recent stuff above were going down this March, Quaestor had received a new CEO: a guy with elementary school education living in a remote village, who have been alternating between being in prison for petty crimes and being umeployed his whole life

-Quaestor boss announces that he shall take back CEO-ship from this guy because he "listened to crisis-consultants" but realised he was in the wrong.


Fidesz continous to be in a bit of disarray over this, like how first Szijjarto basically admitted he received insider information 4 days before the crash and thus removed the moneyz, to Orban tromphing that in a press conference and saying it was not insider information to Szijjarto, but his (Orban's) personal order to all ministries to remove all money from brokerage firms after the first one failed (Buda-Cash, a story interesting on its own, but dwarfed by the organised crime epic which is Quaestor).

Oh and of course they blame this on the socialist party, which is made all the more ridicoulous by the countless PR photos were Szijjarto and/or Orban is having happy times with the Quaestor boss on various business and private occasions.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2015, 12:48:16 PM
Today, it was revealed/rumoured that the Quaestor-boss recently wrote to the Foreign Minister again, indicating that he is willing to take the blame if his family is left alone and if small investors are compensated.

That was the news couple of hours before 3 Quaestor officals have been arrested, possibly him among them.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on March 26, 2015, 12:54:01 PM
Wow, what a mess of corruption and scandal! Not that this stuff doesn't happen elsewhere of course, as Hungary isn't alone in this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 26, 2015, 01:18:36 PM
Not many Swedes are aware of how insane Hungary is.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 27, 2015, 02:46:26 AM
The personal assistant and general right-hand man of the quaestor boss was not only working in Orban's office until 2012, but also his fiancé is the eldest daughter of the chief prosecutor. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 27, 2015, 12:53:30 PM
Hungary has requested acceptance as observer into the Allianza del Pacifio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Alliance
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 01:16:33 PM
Huh? Why?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 27, 2015, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 01:16:33 PM
Huh? Why?

Lots of countries with little relation to the Pacific are observers there, like India, Morocco, Israel, Switzerland...several EU members are also observers as well, Spain, Portugal, UK, Italy, Netherlands. Guess it's not an unusual thing in international organizations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 07:46:36 PM
Bolivia's plans in Asia are of huge importance to Morocco though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on March 27, 2015, 09:30:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 07:46:36 PM
Bolivia's plans in Asia are of huge importance to Morocco though.

Bolivia has an infantry,cavalry and artillery card set to cash in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 27, 2015, 09:51:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 01:16:33 PM
Huh? Why?

Seems like a good reason for senior leaders to get expense paid trips to the Americas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 06:37:11 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 27, 2015, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 01:16:33 PM
Huh? Why?

Lots of countries with little relation to the Pacific are observers there, like India, Morocco, Israel, Switzerland...several EU members are also observers as well, Spain, Portugal, UK, Italy, Netherlands. Guess it's not an unusual thing in international organizations.

I think you are mistaking it with that big pacific alliance thingie. This is a kind of trade cooperation thingie for some south american countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 06:39:21 AM
Orban and like half the government, plus businesspeople visited Kasakhstan. Orban, as usual, was in good form:

Quote"We are always glad to come to Kazakhstan. We are equal in political terms in the European Union, but genealogically we are different. When we go to Brussels we do not have any relatives there. But when we come to Kazakhstan we have close people here. It is a strange feeling for us but it is true. Therefore, Hungarian delegations always come to Kazakhstan with pleasure."


Yakshemash!

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haz.de%2Fvar%2Fstorage%2Fimages%2Fhaz%2Fnachrichten%2Fkultur%2Fuebersicht%2Fborat-mit-waltz-und-dicaprio-im-neuen-tarantino-western%2F15580572-1-ger-DE%2FBorat-mit-Waltz-und-DiCaprio-im-neuen-Tarantino-Western_ArtikelQuer.jpg&hash=08a3d2deceaf59f2fe5d7c3f4f8492cbd94f5bff)

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 06:45:52 AM
Lets examine Orban's world view.

Hungarians:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnickgogerty.typepad.com%2Fdesigning_better_futures%2Fimages%2F2007%2F08%2F16%2Fdscf0354.jpg&hash=897f7bd11246a326c0276d5c8b3a21b19b7632c7)

Genetically related to them:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F4%2F4c%2FKazakh_wedding_3.jpg&hash=963fefed6069ec4f08aef5a7c2fa534b3dde5ca7)


Genetically NOT related to them:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.italianlakeswedding.com%2Fimages%2F_artists%2Fcreative-team.jpg&hash=a0aefadc15140b1303ef72fafc180395cc3ec57f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 01, 2015, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 06:37:11 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 27, 2015, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 27, 2015, 01:16:33 PM
Huh? Why?

Lots of countries with little relation to the Pacific are observers there, like India, Morocco, Israel, Switzerland...several EU members are also observers as well, Spain, Portugal, UK, Italy, Netherlands. Guess it's not an unusual thing in international organizations.

I think you are mistaking it with that big pacific alliance thingie. This is a kind of trade cooperation thingie for some south american countries.

Nope, I got the info from the very same wiki article you linked.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on April 01, 2015, 07:11:47 AM
To be fair, you could argue they're related to both. Though they're genetically more European than Asiatic these days.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 07:24:49 AM
Quote from: PJL on April 01, 2015, 07:11:47 AM
To be fair, you could argue they're related to both. Though they're genetically more European than Asiatic these days.

Well there is no evidence we ever went anywhere but SW of the Urals. Still, probably Hungarians of 1500 years ago looked very much like the Kazahs of today. That's long gone though. "Hungarian" has been a cultural and not genetical identity for centuries now, as we have become a nice mix of our original heritage, plus Slavs and Germans. :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
Also Orban "cannot wait to see Hungary and Kazakhstan unite in a big union stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on April 01, 2015, 08:41:42 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
Also Orban "cannot wait to see Hungary and Kazakhstan unite in a big union stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok".

Heh, that's already been tried and failed, was called the Soviet Union and they only had the eastern part of that territory.     ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2015, 08:44:40 AM
Quote from: KRonn on April 01, 2015, 08:41:42 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
Also Orban "cannot wait to see Hungary and Kazakhstan unite in a big union stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok".

Heh, that's already been tried and failed, was called the Soviet Union and they only had the eastern part of that territory.     ;)

Oh, a political advisor close to Putin keeps dreaming of this idea.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 10:57:48 AM
Orban to Kazah dictator: "we have followed your decision to enter the election race, and we believe you are serving your country's stability with that".

The guy has been winning 90% of the "votes" since 1990...

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvastagbor.atlatszo.hu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F3%2F2014%2F06%2Fkazah.png&hash=b43875e1627e1072bdb02354187b902bb8185048)

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 11:00:11 AM
Also, paging local drug experts, is Orban on meds or what?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOdIeWKK.gif&hash=b9cd36db241d6ec3b39f38de86bd9468590dee06)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 01, 2015, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
Also Orban "cannot wait to see Hungary and Kazakhstan unite in a big union stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok".

He wants to get rubed on the bitch?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on April 01, 2015, 01:28:15 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 10:57:48 AM
Orban to Kazah dictator: "we have followed your decision to enter the election race, and we believe you are serving your country's stability with that".

The guy has been winning 90% of the "votes" since 1990...


Sounds like an old Soviet style election, or a new Russian style.   :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2015, 01:32:45 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 06:45:52 AM
:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F4%2F4c%2FKazakh_wedding_3.jpg&hash=963fefed6069ec4f08aef5a7c2fa534b3dde5ca7)



Kazak chick is kinda hot.  Judging by the picture though, she might be taken.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2015, 08:57:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
Also Orban "cannot wait to see Hungary and Kazakhstan unite in a big union stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok".

Huh. He wants Russia and Kazakhstan to join the EU? I thought he hated Unions and all that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2015, 11:05:25 AM
I wanted to write a post explaining how almost 1 million euros officially meant to help integrating the Roma has basically either been spent on things like office buildings and stuff or just flat out disappeared, thanks to the organisation lead by Florian Farkas, main gypsy of Fidesz.

But nobody cares.

Least of all the Hungarian tax authority, who declared that it is perfectly fine to take one million euros for one given purpose, and then never spend a cent of it on that actual purpose.

This is the same tax authority that started investigations into civil organisations because they had 20-30 euros worth of questionable spending as running costs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on April 02, 2015, 12:53:52 PM
Same thing happens in the US. Taxes will be created, collected and "ear-marked" for something, but wind up getting spent elsewhere and not much is often said about it. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 23, 2015, 08:03:05 AM
Every once in a while, Orban's wife is sent to tabloid papers on a PR mission, talking about their family life etc.

I have read a summary of her stories from the last few years, on account of a new 6 pages interview with her and her prestigious husband. Apart from more "innocent" stuff like not caring much for washing the dishes he messed up while cooking, or not knowing where the vacuum cleaner is, there are real gems:

-He is very grumpy to wake up, unless you tell him the new National Sport issue has arrived (daily sport newspaper). He has to be the first to read it, "one time, I ironed it before handing it to him"

-"Don't ask him anything while he is hungry"

-"Don't disturb him while he is playing cards"

-"Handle him with care after his team lost"

-He never lets his wife win. When they are (or, seeing Orban nowadays, were) out jogging, he pretends he is out of breath and struggling, so the wife would stay close and he could sprint her down before the end. Or that one time on a local ski competition she won he was second, and he had a separate female and male category created before the results were declared

-She also told a lovely story when they were in Paris in 1985 and Orban lost all their money on a cupgame in some outer city market.


And that, my ladies and gentlemen, is our Dear Leader.


Party unity continues to fall apart slowly by the way, the various minions in the press are sent against each other in a presently invisible struggle for position, probably for the 2nd place position behind Orban.



Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on April 23, 2015, 12:44:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2015, 08:03:05 AM

-He never lets his wife win. When they are (or, seeing Orban nowadays, were) out jogging, he pretends he is out of breath and struggling, so the wife would stay close and he could sprint her down before the end. Or that one time on a local ski competition she won he was second, and he had a separate female and male category created before the results were declared


That story is awesome.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 24, 2015, 08:23:42 PM
Tamas. Thoughts? Explanations? :blink: :ph34r:
QuoteFIDESZ HOLDS NARROW LEAD OVER JOBBIK AS PARTY SUPPORT STAGNATES IN HUNGARY
2015-04-23 | pollpollster
Support for Hungary's political parties remained around the same levels in the past month, with ruling Fidesz in the lead with 21% support, unchanged for the third month in a row, the pollster Ipsos said. The radical nationalist Jobbik party had 17% of support in March, down from 18% in February. Support for the opposition Socialists dropped from 12% in February to 11% in March in the whole sample, the poll said. The opposition LMP party picked up 5% of support in March, its highest level so far during the current government. The leftist opposition Democratic Coalition stood on 3%, down from 4% , and Együtt had 1% . Among voters committed to a party, Fidesz led 38% to 27% against Jobbik, followed by 17% for the Socialists. LMP had 7%, DK 6% and Együtt 2% in this voter group, Ipsos said.

In a breakdown of voter support, Ipsos said Fidesz had 1.4 million core supporters and an additional 300,000 voters who were more loosely affiliated with the party. Fidesz's most committed voters are in the villages and in Budapest and in the older age groups, the poll said. Jobbik's core camp numbers 800,000, and the typical Jobbik voter is a man aged 40-50 who lives outside Budapest. Another 600,000 people are less firmly devoted to the party; they are mainly from lower social groups from Budapest. The Socialists have 650,000 core supporters and 250,000 potential supporters. The core supporter is in the 50 plus age group and lives in Budapest, Ipsos said.

via hungarymatters.hu and ipsos.hu photo: István Fazekas – hvg.hu
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2015, 02:27:35 AM
Well, if you are a nationalistic voter of fidesz who got disillusioned, you have nowhere to turn but Jobbik. In the past decade Orban has destroyed whatever fledging beginnings the moderate right had, and kept radicalising his followers in an attempt to keep them together and to make sure even the most rabid ones vote fidesz instead of the nazis.

Now that strategy is starting to tragically backfire both for him and the country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 30, 2015, 06:51:56 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/29/hungary-pm-death-penalty-work-camps-for-immigrants-viktor-orban

QuoteHungary PM: bring back death penalty and build work camps for immigrants

Rightwing nationalist Viktor Orbán threatens to defy EU law and launches anti-immigration manifesto calling for internment camps for illegal immigrants

Hungary's nationalist rightwing leader, Viktor Orbán, has threatened to reintroduce the death penalty, outlawed in the European Union.

The prime minister also reinforced his reputation as the EU's main maverick with a powerful anti-immigration manifesto that equates migrants with terrorists, says immigrants are taking Hungarians' jobs, recommends internment camps for illegal immigrants and states they should be forced to work.

A persistent critic of the EU, who holds up Russia's president Vladimir Putin as a model leader, Orbán responded to the murder of a woman in southern Hungary on Tuesday by calling for the reconsideration of draconian measures banned in the EU, which Hungary joined in 2004.

"The death penalty question should be put on the agenda in Hungary," he said. "Hungary will stop at nothing when it comes to protecting its citizens."

Hungary abolished the death penalty – after this was proscribed by the EU charter of fundamental rights – following the collapse of communism in 1989. The EU executive in Brussels said on Wednesday that moves to reinstate the death penalty could incur curbs on Hungary's EU rights and entitlements.

Orbán's Fidesz party is allied with Germany's governing Christian Democrats and other mainstream centre-right parties in the European parliament. There were calls on Wednesday for it to be expelled from the grouping.

A staunch critic of west European multiculturalism and of immigration, Orbán is also disseminating 8m "questionnaires" in Hungary to claim a mandate for his tough anti-immigration policies.

The 12 questions include:

"Do you agree that economic immigrants endanger the jobs and livelihoods of the Hungarian people?"

"Would you support the government placing illegal immigrants in internment camps?"

"Do you agree with the government that instead of allocating funds to immigration we should support Hungarian families and those children yet to be born?"

"Do you agree that mistaken immigration policies contribute to the spread of terrorism?"

Orbán's party enjoys a sweeping parliamentary majority but recently lost a byelection to the extreme-right Jobbik party. Analysts say Orbán is seeking to recoup support by veering towards the radical right.

:blink:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: frunk on April 30, 2015, 06:56:28 AM
Quotesays immigrants are taking Hungarians' jobs, recommends internment camps for illegal immigrants and states they should be forced to work.

So the problem is immigrants taking jobs from Hungarians, so the immigrants should be forced to have jobs?

That's....a way of looking at things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 30, 2015, 07:05:52 AM
Well Jobbik is gaining on them, so they have decided to be more nazi even than Jobbik.

Plus this has been a tactic of theirs for the past year or so: they need time for their internal fights and crazy corruption projects, so they always throw in some inane shit for the public to chew on. Like how they ordered shops closed on Sunday for the exact same reason.

The death penalty thing is 100% academic since the EU won't let them reinstate it. But their henchmen are now filling the press with it.


A good argument I have read is that this, to raise radical issues they cannot actually "solve" is a strategic mistake, because it further elevates Jobbik's proposed issues as valid, yet the government is unable to solve them, so Jobbik becomes a more valid alternative, since they are more than happy to leave EU and NATO, join Russia, and start executing people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 30, 2015, 07:09:22 AM
I have prepared a list...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 07:20:46 AM
Speaking of Hungary, I read today that now that Denmark is recriminalising beastiality, the only countries in Europe that still permit it are Hungary, Finland and Romania.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 30, 2015, 07:22:38 AM
I find it interesting that he keeps raging against immigrants, when Hungary is one of the countries with the lowest %-ages of foreign citizens living within the country.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRxPYbPX.png&hash=355567cf4121b97759d97be408258ab3e44fc03a)

Then again, the anti-immigrant Pegida protests in Germany were strongest in Dresden which has one of the lowest foreign populations in Germany.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 30, 2015, 07:24:56 AM
But Syt that is EXACTLY why he talks about them: it is a very generous subject:

-this isn't a real issue
-most of the strict handling of illegals he proposes are already happening, but of course nobody knows, since see the first point
-Hungarians are in general quite xenophobic
-its not like the 2% foreigners most without the right to vote will actually cause a popularity backlash
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 07:27:39 AM
Hungarians seem like a really nasty bunch. I know that you guys collaborated with Hitler and such, but Swedes and Germans also did and they are not as awful any more.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 30, 2015, 07:43:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 07:27:39 AM
Hungarians seem like a really nasty bunch. I know that you guys collaborated with Hitler and such, but Swedes and Germans also did and they are not as awful any more.

Its far from all of us, really, and your country is the one who elected the Potato Twins, so have no room to talk.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 30, 2015, 07:46:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 07:27:39 AM
Hungarians seem like a really nasty bunch. I know that you guys collaborated with Hitler and such, but Swedes and Germans also did and they are not as awful any more.

^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 08:11:03 AM
You immediately see which Baltic State gave its Russian minority citizenship.

I guess nobody wants to live in Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 08:11:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 30, 2015, 07:43:14 AM
Its far from all of us, really, and your country is the one who elected the Potato Twins, so have no room to talk.

What is far?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 30, 2015, 08:24:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 08:11:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 30, 2015, 07:43:14 AM
Its far from all of us, really, and your country is the one who elected the Potato Twins, so have no room to talk.

What is far?

Well, if I remember correctly, the undecided/nonvoting part of the population is around 40%, more than the Fidesz and Jobbik supporters combined. Now these are not all modern liberal westerners obviously, but the main issue in Hungary is apathy, not that we are a nation of Martinuses.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:23:40 PM
We do happen to be one of the fastest growing and successful countries in New Europe. Hungary seems like a loser country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 02:41:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:23:40 PM
New Europe

Glad to see there was something Europeans liked about the Bush administration.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:06:55 AM
A Polack talking smack. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:06:55 AM
A Polack talking smack. Hilarious.

Lets see how they handle the jump from Division II to Division I.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 19, 2015, 03:44:40 PM
Well, Orban appeared in front of the EU parliament. He defended putting the death penalty on the agenda. He said (and I'm quoting this from Austrian sources) that Hungary would not have dictated by Brussels what they can talk about and what not. Also, that the EU treaties are not divine law but made by men and could be changed by men.

He went on to decry EU immigration policy and proposed quotas as insane. He argued that the 2008 had proven that the time of liberal democracies is over. He demands Europe for Europeans and Hungary for Hungarians, asking the EU to allow him to protect his country from the hordes of foreigners pouring in.



If he suggest building a wall around Hungary I'm starting to warm to the idea.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on May 20, 2015, 09:47:08 PM
It sounds like his strategy is that instead of working to exit the EU, he is goading/daring them to boot Hungary out. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2015, 07:21:52 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 19, 2015, 03:44:40 PM
He argued that the 2008 had proven that the time of liberal democracies is over.

Well that's a bummer.

QuoteHe demands Europe for Europeans and Hungary for Hungarians, asking the EU to allow him to protect his country from the hordes of foreigners pouring in

Immigrants going TO Hungary? Ok now he is just taking the joke too far.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 07:27:17 AM
 :lol:

Well yes. As I explained, immigrants are a non issue. There's like a thousand of them in a few camps, which are financed by the EU BTW. There was 64 of them who got the permission to stay and settle legally the whole last year, so its not like we are lenient on them presently or anything.

Its basically what happened with the Tories and UKIP I guess. Once feeling threatened by UKIP, the Tories went closer to the far right. Fidesz is trying the same regarding Jobbik, except that Jobbik being pretty far out there, and Fidesz not too far behind to begin with, they need to sink this low to make a difference.

Still it is working marvelously though. Utter bullcrap like this takes front page about the country on both sides of the border, while the cronies continue to steal staggering amount of tax and EU money weekly.

On the other hand, Orban's various outbursts/public philosophing about the merits of autocracy has been increasing in frequency, we are up to like one every two months instead of one per annum, so who knows whats the real agenda here.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 07:43:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 30, 2015, 07:22:38 AM
I find it interesting that he keeps raging against immigrants, when Hungary is one of the countries with the lowest %-ages of foreign citizens living within the country.
Then again, the anti-immigrant Pegida protests in Germany were strongest in Dresden which has one of the lowest foreign populations in Germany.

Interesting map, but then foreign citizens, foreign-born and second or even third-generation immigrants are separate categories. 5.9 % for France is deceiving. So, careful with interpretations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2015, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 07:43:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 30, 2015, 07:22:38 AM
I find it interesting that he keeps raging against immigrants, when Hungary is one of the countries with the lowest %-ages of foreign citizens living within the country.
Then again, the anti-immigrant Pegida protests in Germany were strongest in Dresden which has one of the lowest foreign populations in Germany.

Interesting map, but then foreign citizens, foreign-born and second or even third-generation immigrants are separate categories. 5.9 % for France is deceiving. So, careful with interpretations.

Sure but then those wouldn't be non-citizens. :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:02:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2015, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 07:43:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 30, 2015, 07:22:38 AM
I find it interesting that he keeps raging against immigrants, when Hungary is one of the countries with the lowest %-ages of foreign citizens living within the country.
Then again, the anti-immigrant Pegida protests in Germany were strongest in Dresden which has one of the lowest foreign populations in Germany.

Interesting map, but then foreign citizens, foreign-born and second or even third-generation immigrants are separate categories. 5.9 % for France is deceiving. So, careful with interpretations.

Sure but then those wouldn't be non-citizens. :mellow:

Foreign citizens include EU citizens, yet they should not since the Maastricht treaty and the "European Citizenship" notion. Of course, some countries like the UK seem to have a problem with EU citizens as well and not just gypsies... Too vague to be really informative. The EU 27 indicator is more interesting but includes Romania and Bulgaria with their massive gypsy populations. Close, but not cigar.

edit: Map also includes Turkey. :lol: Great apples and oranges comparison.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2015, 08:12:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

More like Europe is Europe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

That's not the case of France, yet there are problems so free citizenship without duties but only perks does not work as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

That's not the case of France, yet there are problems so free citizenship without duties but only perks does not work as well.

But how does "free citizenship" comes into the picture for somebody who not only was born in France, but only his/her PARENTS were born in France? FFS?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:16:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

That's not the case of France, yet there are problems so free citizenship without duties but only perks does not work as well.

But how does "free citizenship" comes into the picture for somebody who not only was born in France, but only his/her PARENTS were born in France? FFS?

Ever heard of family regrouping and JVS SOLI? That's when "free citizenship" comes into play.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:27:53 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:16:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

That's not the case of France, yet there are problems so free citizenship without duties but only perks does not work as well.

But how does "free citizenship" comes into the picture for somebody who not only was born in France, but only his/her PARENTS were born in France? FFS?

Ever heard of family regrouping and JVS SOLI? That's when "free citizenship" comes into play.

No I honestly don't understand it. How is a "3rd generation immigrant" (even the term is ridicoulous) a different citizen than you?

Edit: beside having brown skin, I mean
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2015, 08:37:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

Yes, that's what I meant to imply with my comment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:42:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:27:53 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:16:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

That's not the case of France, yet there are problems so free citizenship without duties but only perks does not work as well.

But how does "free citizenship" comes into the picture for somebody who not only was born in France, but only his/her PARENTS were born in France? FFS?

Ever heard of family regrouping and JVS SOLI? That's when "free citizenship" comes into play.

No I honestly don't understand it. How is a "3rd generation immigrant" (even the term is ridicoulous) a different citizen than you?

Edit: beside having brown skin, I mean

This phenomenon does not exist in France due to the automatic naturalisation laws. It's no wonder it can't be understood. ;)
Only exists in countries with strict IVS SANGVINIS laws (Blutrecht) such as Germany 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2015, 08:45:50 AM
I appreciate the assumption that France is evil without bothering to understand what Duque was talking about. France embraces people who speak excellent French and adopt a superior culture of any skin color.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on May 21, 2015, 10:06:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:27:53 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:16:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 21, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 08:11:09 AM
Well when you have people considering 3rd generation "immigrants" as non-citizens you know Europe is fucked.

That's not the case of France, yet there are problems so free citizenship without duties but only perks does not work as well.

But how does "free citizenship" comes into the picture for somebody who not only was born in France, but only his/her PARENTS were born in France? FFS?

Ever heard of family regrouping and JVS SOLI? That's when "free citizenship" comes into play.

No I honestly don't understand it. How is a "3rd generation immigrant" (even the term is ridicoulous) a different citizen than you?

Edit: beside having brown skin, I mean

I'm a fifth generation immigrant.  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 21, 2015, 10:26:48 AM
Meanwhile Hungary is among those countries selling EU residence permits to the highest bidders.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Caliga on May 21, 2015, 10:37:04 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 21, 2015, 10:06:10 AM
I'm a fifth generation immigrant.  :cool:
Sixth here.  :nelson:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2015, 10:42:33 AM
Um...erm...let's see...

10th generation immigrant.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 21, 2015, 10:26:48 AM
Meanwhile Hungary is among those countries selling EU residence permits to the highest bidders.

Paying tribute to the leaders and their cronier > just waltzing in expecting decent treatment
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 22, 2015, 03:38:48 AM
This is a quote from the Minister of Justice, Hungary, member of EU, 2015:

"One of the reasons we cannot take in more refugees is that we already have to take care of the uplifting of 800 000 gypsies"

This is the same government that spends about 100 times more on one stadium of a 3rd league team, then on the refugees in the country. Not to mention the beauty of drawing an equal sign between refugees of war from the middle east and similarly skinned Hungarian citizens.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 22, 2015, 03:58:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 21, 2015, 10:26:48 AM
Meanwhile Hungary is among those countries selling EU residence permits to the highest bidders.

Paying tribute to the leaders and their cronier > just waltzing in expecting decent treatment

Well, they're in good company. Many of the poorer EU countries offer resident permits if you buy real estate above a certain price. In Malta, if you buy real estate for €500k and pay €650k to the state, you get citizenship within a year.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 22, 2015, 04:21:50 AM
One thing that is annoying that they are not only going for the cheapest lowest most despicable racist feelings and such, but that it is highly probable that we will see an exodus from the Middle East in the near future which will be a huge challenge to the EU on how to handle.

And these asswipes are already setting the tone.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 22, 2015, 06:07:44 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Fsites%2F25%2Forb%25C3%25A1n-viktor-juncker-760x567.jpg&hash=9c878312d28e571f9d7355b0e53c2143f59f64a3)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 03, 2015, 11:29:25 AM
Seems Orban is gasping at straws. Should we fear an Admiral Horthy and Arrow Cross situation in the future, Tamas? You mentioned that some time ago.
It's not like Hungary has been an immigration country, correct me if I'm wrong. ;) Maybe emigration, judging by Tamas.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/03/us-hungary-orban-idUSKBN0OJ0T920150603 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/03/us-hungary-orban-idUSKBN0OJ0T920150603)

QuoteMulticulturalism doesn't work in Hungary, says Orban
BUDAPEST

REUTERS/BERNADETT SZABO
The era of multiculturalism is over and Hungary should be spared its effects at all costs, the country's Prime Minister said on Wednesday.

In comments that appeared to toughen his already uncompromising stance on immigration, Viktor Orban was quoted as telling a Hungarian newspaper there should be no "mass-scale" mixing of different creeds.

"Multiculturalism means the coexistence of Islam, Asian religions and Christianity. We will do everything to spare Hungary from that," he said in an interview with daily Napi Gazdasag.

"We welcome non-Christian investors, artists, scientists, but we don't want to mix on a mass scale."

Orban, whose governing Fidesz party is losing ground in the polls to the far-right, anti-immigrant Jobbik party, has clashed with European counterparts over his isolationist views.

At the European Parliament in mid-May, he criticized as "bordering on insanity" EU proposals for migrant quotas drafted in response to thousands of deaths among asylum-seekers trying to reach Europe across the Mediterranean in increasing numbers.

On Wednesday he called Jobbik dangerous for Hungary "because they offer a constant temptation, an intellectual capitulation to the simplest solutions", saying his government would strike a conciliatory tone towards voters.

'CLUMSY' EU

Orban, who has often sparred with Brussels during his five years in power, also criticized the EU's response to economic crisis, calling it the "clumsiest" in the world, and played down prospects of Hungary adopting the euro.

Eastern European countries had a competitive alternative in keeping their own currencies, and Hungary's forint could stay strong and stable for decades if domestic fiscal policy was tightened and economic growth boosted, he told the newspaper.

Central Bank Governor Gyorgy Matolcsy, one of Orban's closest allies, told a forum on Tuesday that Hungary would be able to adopt the euro at any time after 2020.

The central bank moved on Tuesday to channel more market funds towards Hungarian government debt, potentially cutting the country's exposure to foreign currency debt.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 03, 2015, 11:37:34 AM
They are really, really pushing the "OMG IMMIGRANTS!!!" thing. Next strawman of theirs.

It's been leaked they have ordered a bunch of huge roadside ads reading "If you come to Hungary, you cannot take the jobs of Hungarians!" in Hungarian, of course :D
It's really just a huge disgrace.


And its working like magic: now pro-government press and people are arguing for the dangers of immigration and refugees (some of it which is valid I guess, but a total non-issue in the country), the other side arguing with statistics and emotions against this new low the country is sinking to.
Before they started, NOBODY, and I do mean nobody was talking about immigrants. There was some coverage of the poor Syrians coming through our border, but since everyone knew the last thing they want is stay here, nobody really cared.

Meanwhile robbing  the country blind continues uninterrupted.

Also I wonder who the next target group will be, since such PR campaigns become old after a while.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 03, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
And of course there is the "national consultation on immigration and terrorism" thing going on, where they mail every househould a questionaire with horribly manipulative and idiotic questions like (almost an exact quote): "While some people say we should spend money on immigrants, others believe the government should support Hungarian families instead. Which one would you prefer?"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2015, 12:25:26 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
And of course there is the "national consultation on immigration and terrorism" thing going on, where they mail every househould a questionaire with horribly manipulative and idiotic questions like (almost an exact quote): "While some people say we should spend money on immigrants, others believe the government should support Hungarian families instead. Which one would you prefer?"

:hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 03, 2015, 12:32:48 PM
That news item showed up on figaro.fr (conservative newspaper), so posters in the local Have your say section got their panties in a bunch, suddenly full of love for Orban's policies while ignoring the deep differences between France and Hungary regarding immigration and terrorism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2015, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 03, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
"While some people say we should spend money on immigrants, others believe the government should support Hungarian families instead. Which one would you prefer?"

All money to Gypsy families.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 03, 2015, 01:43:52 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 03, 2015, 12:32:48 PM
That news item showed up on figaro.fr (conservative newspaper), so posters in the local Have your say section got their panties in a bunch, suddenly full of love for Orban's policies while ignoring the deep differences between France and Hungary regarding immigration and terrorism.

Yes. Its only marginally better than France's President throwing a hissy fit about the overgrowth of Panda bear population in France.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2015, 04:32:57 AM
Mayor of Budapest on the Pride march: "it is unnatural and repulsive"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2015, 10:16:43 AM
Meanwhile, financial analyst of the state TV (costing 260 million euros a year, the same amount that would pay for all the deficit in healthcare, the deficit which is about to bankrupt and collapse the whole system), use graphics to compare percentages:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Flastdays-20150604_1.png&hash=3881b9c51e8b6eda9926bacd9b1d480373d552f4)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2015, 07:39:32 AM
Following the gay marriage decision in the US, Orban ordered his deputy to plan and finance a "pro-family" PR campaign in Hungary.

Judging by the vile 30s-style anti-immigrant PR campaign and its stunning success in overtaking public discourse (admitedly, the timing was flawless), it is not hard to see that they are at least probing on naming the gays as the next public enemy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 01, 2015, 07:40:48 AM
I guess there is nothing in the EU treaties that protects gays eh?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 07:47:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2015, 07:40:48 AM
I guess there is nothing in the EU treaties that protects gays eh?

There is, but it is predictably not very useful against vile rhetoric.

Surprised by the mayor of Budapest thing - you would have thought at least the mayor of the capital would be if not left leaning, then at least liberal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2015, 07:53:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 07:47:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2015, 07:40:48 AM
I guess there is nothing in the EU treaties that protects gays eh?

There is, but it is predictably not very useful against vile rhetoric.

Surprised by the mayor of Budapest thing - you would have thought at least the mayor of the capital would be if not left leaning, then at least liberal.

Used to be for like 20 years, the same liberal guy. I don't remember if he even bothered to run in 2010, but predictrably Fidesz' candidate won in the anti-socialist/liberal landslide of that year
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 09:52:31 AM
What really happened in Hungary, Tamas? I mean, I can get the country as a whole falling under the right wing spell but usually there are some elites or urban areas where liberal left is more prominent. Why isn't it the case in Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 01, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
Beetcause.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2015, 10:09:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 09:52:31 AM
What really happened in Hungary, Tamas? I mean, I can get the country as a whole falling under the right wing spell but usually there are some elites or urban areas where liberal left is more prominent. Why isn't it the case in Hungary?

Those demographics are resigned and have lost all hope. And a lot of them are abroad already.

I think, BTW, that this is the best EU feature for Orban: it is the educated, languages-speaking middle-class or aspiring to middle class people that would have the most issues with his reign. But they are free to use their talent in much better countries with more hope of succeeding and having a fulfilled life than they would ever have in Hungary in their lifetime, Orban or not.

If there was still an Iron Curtain I believe there would be much more unrest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 10:14:43 AM
Sadly, I am fearing this may be similar in Poland. Right now, ahead of the autumn elections, there is literally no left left (pun intended) in the polls - the total percentage of votes captured by all the splinters (including some bona fide new leftist parties with no ties to the commies, mind you) oscillates around 10%, with none of them having a chance to cross the 5% threshold to get into the Parliament (the threshold for "coalitions" i.e. joint lists of more than one party is 8%, but if they combined - even if they managed to despite egos of their leaders - they would probably lose votes because different parts of the left hate each other).

The most "leftist" force of those that can get into the Parliament is the ruling centre-right party (PO) that has about 20-25% of popular support (and obviously is a far cry from my ideal - and they are so arrogant towards leftist voters, essentially taking us for granted, that I would have to do a lot of soul searching before I am able to vote for them). PiS is polling in 30-35% area and the weird group of the ex-rockstar (who has really weird views and attracts a "big tent" coalition of neonazis, libertarians, gun nuts, racists and other assorted human refuse) has around the same level of support as PO (sometimes coming second and sometimes third in polls). These are, by the way, numbers among people who want to vote. About 30-40% of polled people do not know who to vote for.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 10:29:25 AM
Incidentally, it just emerged that there are two groups in which PO and PIS, respectively, always win by a landslide.

For PO it is prison inmates (unlike some systems, Polish prisoners do not automatically lose voting rights) and for PiS it is psychiatric wards.  :lol:

Of course, each side is milking the other side's "success" for what it is worth.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2015, 01:36:15 PM
Tamas Deutsch (we are NOT related), one of the old guard of Fidesz, currently member of the EU Parliament (yes, that useless), has been recently named acting  president of the Hungarian paralympics organisations, after the former president resigned following serious proofs on the utter waste of money he authorised (eg. spending a huge portion of the entire annual budget on one dinner party).

Well, Mr. Deutsch had an interview. In there he said that he is "not a supporter of equalisation" He believes that paralympics atheletes "shouldn't get the same cash rewards from the state as regular olympics athletes do" They should "only get 70% of that".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 01, 2015, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 01, 2015, 01:36:15 PM
Tamas Deutsch (we are NOT related), one of the old guard of Fidesz, currently member of the EU Parliament (yes, that useless), has been recently named acting  president of the Hungarian paralympics organisations, after the former president resigned following serious proofs on the utter waste of money he authorised (eg. spending a huge portion of the entire annual budget on one dinner party).

Well, Mr. Deutsch had an interview. In there he said that he is "not a supporter of equalisation" He believes that paralympics atheletes "shouldn't get the same cash rewards from the state as regular olympics athletes do" They should "only get 70% of that".

Surely that has to depend on the disability.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 01, 2015, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 01, 2015, 10:29:25 AM
PiS it is psychiatric wards.  :lol:

Well duh. Only the stupid or the crazy vote for them.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 15, 2015, 04:53:15 AM
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150715/1024640810.html

QuoteBudapest Stands By Ukraine's Ethnic Hungarians

Hungarian agents in Ukraine are working hard to safeguard the interests of ethnic Hungarians living in the former Soviet republic, János Lázár, the chief of cabinet to Prime Minister Viktor Orban, told the MPs on Tuesday.

In his report to parliament on the work done by the country's intelligence services, János Lázár, who is responsible for civilian intelligence, cited the Ukrainian crisis as a primary example of radical changes to security in the region over the past year.

Hungary shares borders with a country engaged in an armed conflict, The Budapest Beacon reported.

According to Lázár, Hungarian spies have been active in Kiev, just like the spies of other regional neighbors, to ensure that political leaders are able to promote Hungary's interests.

He also stated that the government and the Information Office — the country's non-military intelligence gathering agency  — are convinced that the future of Hungarians living in the Transcarpathia (southwestern Ukraine) will be a serious issue in the coming decade, and that the Information Office is working to protect Hungarian citizens in the Carpathian Basin.

These operations are the first in twenty-five years in which the Hungarian government is openly undertaking activities in Ukraine in total opposition to the wishes of the Ukrainian government.

Ukraine's foreign ministry is doing what it can to stop Hungary's spies and Hungarian diplomats from undertaking operations in Ukraine, Lázár said.

Ethnic Hungarians living in Ukraine's Transcarpathia account for about 12 percent of the region's population.

Speaking in parliament in May Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban said the "Hungarian community should enjoy dual citizenship and broad autonomy rights".

So, Tamas, are you ready to give your life to protect Hungarian blood once the szülőhaza calls you to arms? :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 15, 2015, 05:57:47 AM
This didnt make the news in Hungary.
We are too busy with the migrant problem. One side treats them as undercover soldiers of an islamist conquering army (that's how Chair of Parliament referred to them), and in reply the other side treats them as reincarnations of Jesus Christ.

Its hillarity the way only we can deliver it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 16, 2015, 05:11:30 AM
Latest news is that the government is going to close all brick and mortar refugee centers (these were places like old barracks and whatnot), and move everyone into tent camps away from cities.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 20, 2015, 07:38:28 AM
In one of the cities, one (or maybe two, cant remember) brave patriots noticed a half-black/half-brown (article wouldnt say) guy walking with his white girlfriend the other night.

Jumping to the rescue of the Motherland, they yelled at the guy, instructing him to return to his homeland. The girl stepped in front of them explaining that her BF was actually born in Hungary.

She looks like this after the patriots properly replied to her:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Fmegvertlany2-256x342.jpg&hash=5761162b187f9360b972f8724b30b19c0261cd60)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2015, 07:43:39 AM
Excellent work by the Hungarian authorities to inform good patriots the dire threat foreigners and Hungarians that look foreign pose to the homeland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 07, 2015, 11:47:24 AM
Yesterday, Arpad Goncz, the first President of post-communist Hungary died. Possibly the only truly decent man in politics in the last 80 years or so.
You can read about him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d_G%C3%B6ncz

The bulletpoints of his life:

Can't finish university because he is conscripted in 1944. His unit is taken to Germany, but he flees and back home joins the underground movement, saving Jews and helping the opposition in general.

He joins the Farmer's Party in 1946, the one which won the election and formed a (moderate right) government. The dismantling of the party by the communists force him out of politics, but he remains active in opposition.
In 1956 and 1957 he helps with activist work and is imprisoned for a few years.

Released from prison, he finally wants to finish univeristy just to learn that is forever closed from him.

He learned English in prison and makes a living as a translator until the late 80s. He translated a lot of complicated novels but his main work is Lord of the Rings.

In the late 80s he joins the liberal party, and in 1990 is elected (by the Parliament) as President.

He becomes immensely popular, and remains so through his second term as well.

I really liked him. He always remained true to his (liberal, modern democratic) convictions, fighting the Nazis, the Communists for them, and also fighting for them as President. As nominal commander in chief he prevented the government to use the army to disperse the huge Taxi Blockade of Budapest at the start of his term, and also prevented (or tried to prevent, rather) the hostile takeover of the public media by the government.

And above all he was always humble and friendly. That very rare kind of man, who is determined, strong, talented, yet seemingly devoid of any (publicly shown) arrogance or agressivity, and always having an aura of unassuming dignity.

I read a necroloug that truly captured the essence of why his death so upset me: He represented the Hungary That Could Have Been.

He had such a strong conviction and respect for a modern civic society, and democracy, that was not only his during the fall of communism, but got totally lost out of public figures and public discourse over the years.

He was the embodiment of the hope of building a society on mutual respect and dignity.  That hope died several years ago, but now the symbol of it died as well. :(

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/G%C3%B6ncz%C3%81rp%C3%A1d.jpg/220px-G%C3%B6ncz%C3%81rp%C3%A1d.jpg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on October 07, 2015, 01:05:02 PM
  He had such a strong conviction and respect for a modern civic society, and democracy, that was not only his during the fall of communism, but got totally lost out of public figures and public discourse over the years.

He was the embodiment of the hope of building a society on mutual respect and dignity.  That hope died several years ago, but now the symbol of it died as well.


RIP 

Sounds like he was a good and unique individual.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Malthus on October 07, 2015, 01:22:13 PM
That's a great epitaph, Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 07, 2015, 02:47:03 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 07, 2015, 11:47:24 AM
Yesterday, Arpad Goncz, the first President of post-communist Hungary died. Possibly the only truly decent man in politics in the last 80 years or so.
You can read about him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d_G%C3%B6ncz

The bulletpoints of his life:

Can't finish university because he is conscripted in 1944. His unit is taken to Germany, but he flees and back home joins the underground movement, saving Jews and helping the opposition in general.

He joins the Farmer's Party in 1946, the one which won the election and formed a (moderate right) government. The dismantling of the party by the communists force him out of politics, but he remains active in opposition.
In 1956 and 1957 he helps with activist work and is imprisoned for a few years.

Released from prison, he finally wants to finish univeristy just to learn that is forever closed from him.

He learned English in prison and makes a living as a translator until the late 80s. He translated a lot of complicated novels but his main work is Lord of the Rings.

In the late 80s he joins the liberal party, and in 1990 is elected (by the Parliament) as President.

He becomes immensely popular, and remains so through his second term as well.

I really liked him. He always remained true to his (liberal, modern democratic) convictions, fighting the Nazis, the Communists for them, and also fighting for them as President. As nominal commander in chief he prevented the government to use the army to disperse the huge Taxi Blockade of Budapest at the start of his term, and also prevented (or tried to prevent, rather) the hostile takeover of the public media by the government.

And above all he was always humble and friendly. That very rare kind of man, who is determined, strong, talented, yet seemingly devoid of any (publicly shown) arrogance or agressivity, and always having an aura of unassuming dignity.

I read a necroloug that truly captured the essence of why his death so upset me: He represented the Hungary That Could Have Been.

He had such a strong conviction and respect for a modern civic society, and democracy, that was not only his during the fall of communism, but got totally lost out of public figures and public discourse over the years.

He was the embodiment of the hope of building a society on mutual respect and dignity.  That hope died several years ago, but now the symbol of it died as well. :(

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/G%C3%B6ncz%C3%81rp%C3%A1d.jpg/220px-G%C3%B6ncz%C3%81rp%C3%A1d.jpg)

That's cool. I knew him for a decent man, but I did not know he translated the Lord of the Rings into the Dark Tongue. RIP.  :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 07, 2015, 02:49:18 PM
It's really sad Hungary ended up a cautionary tale for the rest of the Eastern Europe. It used to be a rather cool nation (I am nearly half-Hungarian as my mom used to have a Hungarian boyfriend before going for my dad).

I really hope Poland does not follow suit in the elections in 2 weeks (but it looks bleak).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 07, 2015, 03:01:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 07, 2015, 11:47:24 AM
Yesterday, Arpad Goncz, the first President of post-communist Hungary died. Possibly the only truly decent man in politics in the last 80 years or so.
You can read about him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d_G%C3%B6ncz

The bulletpoints of his life:

Can't finish university because he is conscripted in 1944. His unit is taken to Germany, but he flees and back home joins the underground movement, saving Jews and helping the opposition in general.

He joins the Farmer's Party in 1946, the one which won the election and formed a (moderate right) government. The dismantling of the party by the communists force him out of politics, but he remains active in opposition.
In 1956 and 1957 he helps with activist work and is imprisoned for a few years.

Released from prison, he finally wants to finish univeristy just to learn that is forever closed from him.

He learned English in prison and makes a living as a translator until the late 80s. He translated a lot of complicated novels but his main work is Lord of the Rings.

In the late 80s he joins the liberal party, and in 1990 is elected (by the Parliament) as President.

He becomes immensely popular, and remains so through his second term as well.

I really liked him. He always remained true to his (liberal, modern democratic) convictions, fighting the Nazis, the Communists for them, and also fighting for them as President. As nominal commander in chief he prevented the government to use the army to disperse the huge Taxi Blockade of Budapest at the start of his term, and also prevented (or tried to prevent, rather) the hostile takeover of the public media by the government.

And above all he was always humble and friendly. That very rare kind of man, who is determined, strong, talented, yet seemingly devoid of any (publicly shown) arrogance or agressivity, and always having an aura of unassuming dignity.

I read a necroloug that truly captured the essence of why his death so upset me: He represented the Hungary That Could Have Been.

He had such a strong conviction and respect for a modern civic society, and democracy, that was not only his during the fall of communism, but got totally lost out of public figures and public discourse over the years.

He was the embodiment of the hope of building a society on mutual respect and dignity.  That hope died several years ago, but now the symbol of it died as well. :(

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/G%C3%B6ncz%C3%81rp%C3%A1d.jpg/220px-G%C3%B6ncz%C3%81rp%C3%A1d.jpg)

RIP :(

Sounds like an awesome dude.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on October 30, 2015, 10:25:46 PM
Quote

BUDAPEST (Reuters) - Prime Minister Viktor Orban's chief of staff on Thursday rejected criticism of the Hungarian government by the U.S. ambassador to Budapest, saying her remarks amounted to interference in Hungary's affairs.

"For me as a voter it is downright irritating that a diplomat should come here and tell us how to live or how our voters should live," said Janos Lazar, one of Orban's top lieutenants.

Since assuming power in 2010, Orban's government has come under fire from the European Union and the United States for curbing media freedoms, its reforms of the court system, centralization of power and a crackdown on NGOs.

U.S. ambassador Colleen Bell said on Wednesday that corruption in Hungary was still a serious concern, using the secrecy surrounding Hungary's deal with Russia over its nuclear plant in Paks as an example.

"Increasing centralization of power creates conditions that mean that many of the big decisions that will impact Hungary for generations to come remain opaque," Bell said.

"We urge an immediate end to heavy-handed tactics against civil society organizations."

The ambassador also criticized Hungary's attitude towards refugees amidst the migration crisis in Europe.

"We can relegate nationalist, intolerant rhetoric to the dust heap where it belongs," Bell said.

Lazar was asked at a routine news conference about Bell's remarks.

"As a country we are not subjugated to the United States of America, and we do not want to be either," he said. "Diplomats delegated here ought to get used to this after five years (of the Fidesz party in power)."

"It is not us that need a reality check, but the Embassy of the United States of America, in view of how they interfere in Hungary's domestic politics, what hasty and simplistic judgments they pass on a society," Lazar added.

(Reporting by Krisztina Than and Marton Dunai; editing by Andrew Roche)

Quote

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/28/hungarys-500-year-old-victim-complex-nazis-habsburgs/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/28/hungarys-500-year-old-victim-complex-nazis-habsburgs/)


BUDAPEST, Hungary — In the summer of 2014, a bronze statue suddenly appeared in Szabadsag Square in Budapest, a few blocks from the parliament. The statue featured an angel, a male figure with his tunic open to his breast, menaced by an eagle whose talons clutched a bar just overhead. The angel was Hungary, and the eagle was the Nazis, who had entered Budapest on March 19, 1944. The statue had been commissioned and installed on the orders of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban.

Orban's opponents in the Budapest intelligentsia understood very well that this image of Hungary — noble and helpless victim of the malevolent forces of history — was not only a falsification of the past but an instrument for the politics of the present. On the other side of a walkway near the statue, a group of activists have erected a protest that includes pictures of Jewish victims as well as the humble personal items shown at Auschwitz and elsewhere — suitcases and shoes. A placard in French observes that Orban's statue seeks to absolve the Hungarian people of their role in the death and deportation of 600,000 Jews. In fact, the sign notes, Hungary's right-wing government passed anti-Semitic legislation as early as 1920, and "the Nazis were welcomed not with bullets but with bouquets of flowers."

"We wish to note," wrote the authors, who identified themselves as members of "civil society," "that with the installation of the memorial, the government takes a step toward the extremist, nationalist, racist, and xenophobic Jobbik," referring to Hungary's far-right party.

The spectacle reminded me of something I had been told earlier in the week by the head of a human rights organization: "History is so traumatic for us that it's always present." History, of course, is present practically everywhere and certainly in Eastern Europe, which endured first the Nazis and then the Soviets. What is distinctive about Hungary, however, is how the question of historical culpability so utterly shapes contemporary debate.

Hungarians share a collective pathology known as the "Trianon syndrome." This refers to a post-World War I treaty that very few people outside of Hungary have even heard of. Inside of Hungary, however, "Trianon" has the same resonance that "Sykes-Picot" does in parts of the Middle East. Hungary was on the losing side of World War I (as it was again in World War II). At the end of the war, French and English diplomats exacted their revenge by shearing off two-thirds of what had been a large country at the heart of Europe. Hungary lost pieces of itself to Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Austria, and even Italy.

Losers, of course, pay a price. But that's not the Hungarian narrative, which blames Austria, the dominant force in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, also known as the Dual Monarchy. A sign at an exhibit in the National Museum describes Hungary ambiguously as a "voluntary captive of Dualism" that was "swept into the world war" by Vienna. Trianon, in turn, set the stage for Hungary's role in World War II. The museum's curators admit that Hungarians elected right-wing governments that joined the Axis but offer the caveat: "Aside from the expansive Italian Fascist movement and the foreign policy of the German National Socialist state, there were no other powers from whom a revision of the Trianon Treaty could be expected." What was poor Hungary to do? The exhibition then proceeds to pass over the Holocaust in silence. The next room shows Hungary's suffering under Stalin (which was very great).

The list of grievances goes back even further. Hungary had a wonderful 1848, with mass uprisings against its Habsburg rulers. But, like monarchs across the continent, the Habsburgs ruthlessly repressed the revolt, forcing Hungarians to accept the role of junior partner in the Dual Monarchy in 1867 — which was, to be sure, a major upgrade from its prior status as subject nation, but it was not independence. There's a wonderful room of history paintings from this period in the National Gallery in Buda Castle. They depict not the barricades of 1848, but the heroic martyrdoms of centuries past — an early struggle against Habsburg rule in 1700, the death of Janos Hunyadi at the Battle of Belgrade against the Turks in 1456 (which the Christians won). History has a meaning, and the meaning is injustice, nobly opposed.

But, of course, history does not have intrinsic meanings; we impose the ones we prefer. The 50-year period of the Dual Monarchy, for example, constitutes one of the most astonishing cultural and economic flowerings of European history. Virtually all of Budapest, a stunning city of cupolas, balconies, and trellised bronze doorways, was built during that time. The city hatched a remarkable population of scientists, industrialists, poets, painters, and philosophers. John Lukacs offers a glorious evocation of this era in his book Budapest 1900, a more lyrical version of Carl Schorske's magisterial Fin-de-Siècle Vienna. Perhaps the greatest surviving monument of the time is Budapest's immense, neo-Gothic parliament building, with its soaring, cathedral-like interior. Lukacs quotes an essayist of the day: "The Parliament played the role in public interest that was later taken up by the entertainments of the theaters and then those of spectator sports." The Hungarians, prosperous and educated, were mad for public debate. What a wonderful tribute to the liberal spirit!

Orban does not dwell on Hungary's Golden Age. He does not like liberalism and does not think Hungarians have liberalism in them. (See my earlier column.) Rather, he directs his people's attention to their victimization and to their ancient crusades. He has compared himself to Hunyadi and the knights who guarded the vegvars, or border fortresses. Here, he wishes to evoke Hungary's role as a Christian force defending Europe from Muslim invaders — an antecedent to today's confrontation with the Islamic hordes, which is how he has characterized the refugee flight from the charnel house of Iraq and Syria. He is Hungary's knight at the border fortress.

It is, of course, the 20th century that offers the most contested terrain. Is "Trianon" the name of a terrible misfortune, at least partly deserved? Or a grave and ongoing injustice? Orban himself has no doubts; one of the first things he did after taking office was to decree June 4 National United Day, a day dedicated to the calamity of Trianon. Maria Schmidt, a right-wing historian whose work Orban often cites, described the treaty to me in the present tense. "It's how the West always treats us. The West always treated Eastern Europe as a kind of colonial region." It was insufferable then; it is unacceptable today.

And this is why the Holocaust is still so contested. After the trauma of World War I and Trianon, Hungary adopted right-wing authoritarian rule well before Germany did, joined the Fascist Axis powers, and then became a willing participant in the Final Solution. In the three months of the summer of 1944 — before the Nazis installed their own regime, known as Arrow Cross, that fall — 450,000 Jews were deported from Hungary. At Auschwitz, you can learn how the endless ribbon of cattle cars coming from the south strained the camp's killing machinery. If Hungary was responsible, then that is part of what Hungary is today.

Germany's politics are, of course, wrapped around an immensely greater historical guilt. German Chancellor Angela Merkel's generous response to the refugees is surely conditioned by this acceptance of past evil-doing. Orban, by contrast, requires a sense of collective innocence — better still, of angelic victimhood — in order to create the political space for his repudiation of Merkel's position. When I told Schmidt that Merkel seemed to view the refugee crisis as a matter of universal moral principle, she snarled. "What was the universal responsibility of the world when we were under Soviet occupation?" Precisely. A nation that has stood alone against injustice for half a millennium need not apologize to anyone for anything.

This is part three in a five-part series on Hungary's rightward shift. For parts one and two, click here and here. Check back tomorrow for part four, on Roma and Hungarian politics.


Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 30, 2015, 10:32:13 PM
QuoteIt's how the West always treats us. The West always treated Eastern Europe as a kind of colonial region

Like when we crushed their revolution in 1849 and when we put them under a puppet regime after WWII...

Oh wait no that was the East not the West. Is Hungary aware of what colonialism is?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 31, 2015, 01:19:37 AM
The analysis of Orban's "historical politics" is almost word for word the same as that of PiS: Poland has always been a victim. Always a victim. Never a victor or an oppressor. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a traitor. Unfortunately, this narrative is not only popular with the elderly but, as the latest elections show, also with the youngest voters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 31, 2015, 05:43:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 31, 2015, 01:19:37 AM
The analysis of Orban's "historical politics" is almost word for word the same as that of PiS: Poland has always been a victim. Always a victim. Never a victor or an oppressor. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a traitor. Unfortunately, this narrative is not only popular with the elderly but, as the latest elections show, also with the youngest voters.

Funny how styles changed. It used to be countries crowed about their glorious past. Now they rush to brag about how much they are victimized.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 01, 2015, 11:48:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 31, 2015, 05:43:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 31, 2015, 01:19:37 AM
The analysis of Orban's "historical politics" is almost word for word the same as that of PiS: Poland has always been a victim. Always a victim. Never a victor or an oppressor. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a traitor. Unfortunately, this narrative is not only popular with the elderly but, as the latest elections show, also with the youngest voters.

Funny how styles changed. It used to be countries crowed about their glorious past. Now they rush to brag about how much they are victimized.

It's not just countries - that's how most modern politics works, both on the left and on the right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 01, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
In fairness countries used to actually have glorious pasts. Now not so much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 02, 2015, 05:53:13 AM
So the USA ambassador to Hungary had some not-very-nice things to say publicly about the Orban regime.

So the anti-American voices which had to be toned down when the government thought they had made a peace with the 'States can be roam freely again.

One of the "opinion leader" economists of the radical right (he was an economist in communist times, now I'd just characterise him as a mumbling lunatic, but a LOT of people are listening to him), was on the main state TV channel explaining the migrant crisis:

Just so you know, it is happening because the USA wants to use it to weaken the EU. Why? Because the US is seeing the growing cooperation between the EU, Russia, and China, seeing how their economic and cultural aspects are making them a nice fit for each other, turning the United States irrelevant and unnecessary to exist.

Wanted to mention to the Americans here, so they are aware.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 02, 2015, 06:08:52 AM
That would have sounded better 10 years ago.  From over here, the EU isn't cooperating that well with the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 02, 2015, 06:15:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 02, 2015, 06:08:52 AM
That would have sounded better 10 years ago.  From over here, the EU isn't cooperating that well with the EU.

Well, just a few months ago the same guys declared the EU to be obsolete, irrepairable and ready to crumble and fall apart.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on November 02, 2015, 06:43:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 31, 2015, 05:43:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 31, 2015, 01:19:37 AM
The analysis of Orban's "historical politics" is almost word for word the same as that of PiS: Poland has always been a victim. Always a victim. Never a victor or an oppressor. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a traitor. Unfortunately, this narrative is not only popular with the elderly but, as the latest elections show, also with the youngest voters.

Funny how styles changed. It used to be countries crowed about their glorious past. Now they rush to brag about how much they are victimized.

It was always the rule in the Balkans and in Eastern Europe since the age of nationalism. In Western Europe, it's self-hatred über alles.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 02, 2015, 07:18:44 AM
Well, it keeps you guys out of trouble.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on November 02, 2015, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2015, 05:53:13 AM
So the USA ambassador to Hungary had some not-very-nice things to say publicly about the Orban regime.

So the anti-American voices which had to be toned down when the government thought they had made a peace with the 'States can be roam freely again.

One of the "opinion leader" economists of the radical right (he was an economist in communist times, now I'd just characterise him as a mumbling lunatic, but a LOT of people are listening to him), was on the main state TV channel explaining the migrant crisis:

Just so you know, it is happening because the USA wants to use it to weaken the EU. Why? Because the US is seeing the growing cooperation between the EU, Russia, and China, seeing how their economic and cultural aspects are making them a nice fit for each other, turning the United States irrelevant and unnecessary to exist.

Wanted to mention to the Americans here, so they are aware.

I'm confused are they saying that there have been reasons though that previously necessitated the existence of a America?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 02, 2015, 09:50:51 AM
It's complex stuff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on November 02, 2015, 10:01:13 AM
I am pretty sure the reason for the USA's existence is to dominate and ruin Hungary. In fact that is spelled out in code in the Declaration of Independence. It is was the true meaning of Manifest Destiny. The reason behind Secession was not the expansion of slavery into the territories but that the Republicans wanted to go easy on Hungary. We only got involved in both World Wars when it looked like the side Hungary was on might win.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 02, 2015, 10:06:14 AM
 :lol: just today, two prominent Fidesz members revealed "the powers" behind the refugee quota idea supported in the EU.

How did they find these powers? It was easy: George Soros had an interview yesterday where he supported the idea.

So it's obvious: it is Soros (who is a common villain in the Hungarian right) who is behind the idea of distributing refugees around member states (and thus destroying civilisation I guess).

I guess Soros is an easy target when you want to blame the international jewish money-men without actually saying that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 17, 2015, 04:30:59 AM
Probably needless to say, but the Paris attacks have launched government leadership into a vile and disgusting "told you so!" mode, now even more openly declaring that migration means terrorism and crime.

Also Orban hinted at having to "change some laws" concerning surveilance and such to "fight terror effectively", which clearly means the next babystep toward building his own mini version of Putinism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 02, 2015, 11:53:18 AM

Monday night: a 60-pages bill is submitted to Parliament, concerning changes to tax-related laws (according to title)
Tuesday: Parliament votes on it
Wednesday: new law comes into effect


It was noticed by some journalists on Tuesday that there was a reason for the rush: what seems like a very technical bill full of minor changes, there are a couple of juicy stuff:

-from today, a direct relative of a government official (PM, ministers, anyone but the President, really) is now allowed to submit offers for government projects and grants and can win. eg. Minister of X's son applies to be a supplier of Ministry of X and wins. This is now perfectly legal. Except if they live in the same household.

-from today the tax authority cannot investigate the suspicious wealth-gaining of an individual without that individual requesting it, or the police requesting after a formal police investigation has started


In other words, corruption in Hungary has been eliminated, as a crime, at least.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2016, 04:03:05 AM
Couple of tidbits since it's been a while:


-Maybe because migrants on their own are losing their traction, or because Mr. Clinton said a couple of mean things about the Saviour of the Nation, but both Orban's right hand guy and Orban himself has publicly declared that the wave of migrants hitting Europe are the makings of Obama, on the request of George Soros.

-I think they know there's much shittier times coming than they would let you believe: in a bill full of Civil Law changes somebody spotted a couple of changes that basically make children/close relatives legally obliged to pay for the care of pensioners if their own pension can't finance it on its own.

Ah, and allegedly you can spot a few articles int he international press about how the president of the central bank, Matolcsy, has spent around 1 billion USD on his cronies via 6 foundations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2016, 08:20:02 AM
I swear things are starting to read like documentaries about the intra-party power struggles from communist Russia.

A couple of years or so ago the ENTIRE cooperative banking sector (these were small local saving/investment association kind of things loosely connected) was forcefully centralised, turned into one bank, and pretty much given to one of the favoured smaller-time oligarchs (he was already an owner of a bank given to him by the government).

It was very clearly a very crooked affair but unrest by the local owners quickly died off on the deafening silence of the country's indifference that is common place with everything this government does (it is hard to believe less than ten years ago Budapest burned merely because the PM was on tape saying they lied to people).

Fast forward to the last couple of weeks.

Csanyi, one of the biggest oligarchs wrote a public letter to Orban about the plight of the common man under the cruel and cheating new system of the cooperative banks under this management of Small Time Oligarch. (called Speter IIRC).

That was weird, and people skilled in Kremlinology already suspected something was brewing.

Well, yes. Yesterday Parliament blitzed through a bill nerfing the law that gave this guy free reign over the cooperatives. Today the financial authority all of a sudden found a long list of issues with his bank and issued a massive fine.

Clearly the guy is going down.

This is only one of a number of similar (although usually smaller scale stories). I think the Fidesz oligarchs will increasingly turn to infighting as simply there is not much out-of-their-circles wealth left to steal, and with the EU payouts stopping in 2020, the country will be in a dire financial state, so I expect heads to continue rolling, this guy is only the beginning, you'll see.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2016, 04:11:45 PM
So, a colleague of mine visited Hungary recently on a business trip. The stories of corruption he heard made his hair stand up. Compared to Hungary, Poland is like transparency international.

He was also told that today Orban is the richest Hungarian. That's Putin level shit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2016, 03:55:30 AM
Since I posted, this Out of Favour Oligarch has had even tougher times.

The ENTIRE government-controlled media is after him including the freshly bought private country-wide channel TV2, with vile character-murdering (not that there is lot to feel sorry for about this guy, he is a major crook).

Meanwhile the police and the tax authority has been harassing all his business interest, including the Hungarian Post (as in, the postal service).

This is a big step in Putinification. I don't think I can think of an even remotely similar phenomenom in the country since the 50s, where somebody who was in the closest circles of power, had the full backing of all authorities to do his corruption with impunity, suddenly, out of the blue as far as public awareness is concerned, be turned into public enemy number 1.

Whatever he has done, I think he is also being used to make an example of for the other oligarchs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2016, 03:56:53 AM
Orban and this oligarch, Speder, just two years ago

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4cdn.hu%2Fkraken%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--UUpC2zsC--%2F6ovyrVxWQCIWCG89s.jpeg&hash=615f9781577a859d1c873ed1e9b7e4bc66ee4475)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Fireblade on June 10, 2016, 09:08:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2016, 03:56:53 AM
Orban and this oligarch, Speder, just two years ago

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4cdn.hu%2Fkraken%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--UUpC2zsC--%2F6ovyrVxWQCIWCG89s.jpeg&hash=615f9781577a859d1c873ed1e9b7e4bc66ee4475)

You mean (((Speder)))
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 10, 2016, 11:37:40 AM
1st Q GDP numbers for Hungary out, down 0.8%.  Pump-priming deficit spending appears to have exhausted its ability to compensate for the train wreck that is Orbanomics. 

PiS in Poland appears to have taken note, their finance minister was babbling about running an economy for people, not statistics.  Because the last thing you want to have cluttering up political discourse is facts.   
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2016, 11:45:30 AM
In relation to that, I read an article a couple of days ago, that since our 2004 EU membership, we have got a shitton of money from the EU, on today's exchange rate, about 25 billion pounds.

A study claims, that GPD growth due to spending/investment of this funding has been amount to 0.3 to 2 percent per year, depending on the year in question.

Basically, almost all of this massive money has been spent on building up a new oligarchy (well, two oligarchies) and was just kind of dispersed and spent on stuff.

A historic chance missed, but hey, that's Hungary: missing historic chances since 1526
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 13, 2016, 05:06:05 AM
Do you remember how the big Turkish demonstrations a few years ago started over a park?

We almost had something similar but it has already fizzled out, due to lack of mass interest.

One of the biggest parks, or rather commons as the Brits would call it, will be changed rather heavily. Modernisation if you ask the government, with a bunch of nice buildings, destruction of the trees and the green commons if you ask the protestors.

One thing is certain: the contractor tasked with this, has not had the right to start working yet, and the protesters could not have access to the information regarding the project they are publicly entitled to.

But the project is urgent for somebody important, that's quite clear. Since the start of construction is technically illegal, somebody (they wouldn't disclose) hired a bunch of security guards, who had been battling the protesters for about a week before their eventual victory.

There are wonderful videos of it, an opposition politician had his arm broken IIRC, there have been other injuries, and there is a great short clip showing the leader of the security team yelling off the head of the police unit on the scene (a young colonel) for not doing anything about the protesters.

One claim the security guys have been repeating is that their man have been constantly injured. You can see an example of this below, where the visibly agressive, aging hippy, launches a sneak attack against the defenseless security guard:

http://coub.com/view/dhiws
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on July 13, 2016, 05:49:43 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 13, 2016, 05:06:05 AM
Do you remember how the big Turkish demonstrations a few years ago started over a park?

We almost had something similar but it has already fizzled out, due to lack of mass interest.

One of the biggest parks, or rather commons as the Brits would call it, will be changed rather heavily. Modernisation if you ask the government, with a bunch of nice buildings, destruction of the trees and the green commons if you ask the protestors.

I thought Orban was the defender of Christian Europe. How can he go Turk?  :hmm:

On the other hand, the one who sold the Cannon to the Turk was called Orban too...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 30, 2016, 10:52:59 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4cdn.hu%2Fkraken%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--NqmKglSL--%2F6uBWiSmQos4ZAY7Ks.png&hash=b0e99c052264bbdd10d52ebb424a4b0f6f330622)

This is from October but only discovered now.

There are a couple of juicy things about this:

1. She is not Orban's wife, she is Orban's eldest daughter. The guy next to her is her husband, and recent public space - lighting mogul (his companies making huge money out of selling absolutely abysmal led lights for towns)

2. Point 1 isn't that important, just shows Bahrein's officials as morons, but the daughter and her husband has ZERO public jobs or functions. NOTHING. ZIP. Yet they were negotiating on behalf of Hungary?!

The daughter, Rachel, has been joked as heir apparent but looks like she actually IS being groomed to take over.

So far there has been only signs of her joining the clan as a "working girl" - ever since she finished her tourism school, Lorinc Meszaros, mayor of Orban's village, recent multibillionaire, and quite clearly the official holder of Orban's stolen wealth, has been buying hotels and restaurants like there is no tomorrow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 31, 2016, 12:40:00 AM
See, people? If Orban's daughter can do it, Ivanka sure can.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on August 31, 2016, 01:16:12 AM
Orban, making Hungary Great Again!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 03, 2016, 02:04:56 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/02/hungarian-vote-on-refugees-will-not-take-place-suggest-first-poll-results

QuoteHungary's refugee referendum not valid after voters stay away

PM Viktor Orbán fails to convince 50% of electorate to turn out, but those who did so voted to exclude new refugees

The Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orbán, has failed to convince a majority of his population to vote in a referendum on closing the door to refugees, rendering the result invalid and undermining his campaign for a cultural counter-revolution within the European Union.

More than 95% of participants in Sunday's referendum sided with Orbán by voting against the admission of refugees to Hungary, allowing him to claim an "outstanding" victory. But more than half of the electorate stayed at home, rendering the process constitutionally null and void.

Orbán himself put a positive spin on the low turnout. He argued that while "a valid [referendum] is always better than an invalid [referendum]" the extremely high proportion of no-voters still gave him a mandate to go to Brussels next week "to ensure that we should not be forced to accept in Hungary people we don't want to live with".

He argued that the poll would encourage a wave of similar votes across the EU. "We are proud that we are the first," he said.

The result, though, gives potential respite to the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and EU officials in Brussels, whose comparatively progressive refugee policies and liberal political outlook had been under sustained assault from Orbán in recent months.

Internationally, Orbán's referendum was seen as a plebiscite on not just the EU's refugee-sharing quota – which would see just 1,294 refugees resettled in Hungary from Greece and Italy – but on the role of nation state and the future of liberal democracy within the EU.

Presenting himself as the voice of the European masses, Orbán had called for a cultural rebellion within the EU, praised aspects of illiberal strongman leadership that are anathema to the EU's professed values and opposed attempts to share responsibility for refugees between EU states.

The refugee referendum was an attempt to build support for this vision and Orbán hoped that a strong turnout would lead to a series of copycat votes across the continent. But despite the biggest and most divisive advertising campaign in Hungarian history, Orbán failed to entice enough voters to the ballot box.

Initial results suggested that about 45% of the Hungarian electorate participated, significantly less than the 50% threshold needed to validate the referendum.

This could slow Orbán's political momentum within Europe, said András Bíró-Nagy, a former EU official, and a fellow at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. "How can he win a cultural counter-revolution in Europe if he can't get a valid referendum result on his strongest issue in his own country?" Bíró-Nagy asked.

The deputy head of Orbán's party, Fidesz, also framed the vote as a triumph. "Today is a sweeping victory for all those who reject the EU's mandatory, unlimited quotas," said Gergely Gulyás. "It is a sweeping victory for all those who believe that the foundations of a strong European Union can only be the strong nation states."

But Fidesz's critics said the party had exaggerated the result. Viktor Szigetvári, the leader of Együtt, a liberal opposition party, said: "In his speech, the prime minister failed to recognise the reality. The majority of Hungarians stayed away from the polls and what's been left behind is a divided country. To heal this, we need a change in government."

Analysts said that the low turnout was ultimately underwhelming for a man who bases his arguments on their popular appeal and whose toxic advertising campaign was five times larger than the next biggest in Hungarian history. Of Hungary's 20,000 advertising hoardings, 5,888 were used for the referendum campaign – considerably more than the 1,200 used by a tobacco firm in the mid-1990s, according to research by Transparency International.

Csaba Tóth, strategy director at the Republikon thinktank, said: "It's a disappointment for him, but it doesn't make it impossible for him to claim it as a victory; there are still more than three million people voting for him. But expectations were higher. Despite the very distorted media landscape, and despite all this advertising, it was only enough to mobilise voters from Fidesz and Jobbik," a far-right opposition party.

Liberal opposition politicians argued that the referendum was an attempt to distract from Orbán's domestic failures and told their supporters to boycott the vote in order to render it invalid. Questions were raised over the amount of state funds that were used to pay for referendum adverts in government-friendly media outlets or on hoardings owned by government allies.

The government denies any wrongdoing and says the adverts were placed in a "completely transparent" manner. But Transparency International and other academic researchers queried the process.

Attila Bátorfy, a researcher on media affairs at the Central European University, said: "Channelling state funds to media outlets that are owned by oligarchs allied to the governments and have viewership that is lower their competitors – what's the problem with that? It's using state funds to prop up the government's private media backers, for the purposes of drumming up support for the government's position."

Government critics condemned the divisive tone of Orbán's campaign. He and his colleagues frequently linked refugees to terrorism and relentlessly plugged their message, even during half-time advertising breaks at the European football championships in June.

Zsuzsanna Vajna, a 79-year-old Holocaust survivor who remembers being made to walk up and down the banks of the Danube while Hungarian Nazis shot other Jews into the river, said the stigmatisation of refugees reminded her of the incitement against Jews during her childhood.

"It very much feels like the atmosphere in the 30s before the second world war," Vajna said. "In the 1930s, we were in a very bad economic situation. People had to be blamed, and then it was the Jews. And that's what I'm reminded of when I read the Hungarian government's propaganda. It's very dangerous. Because it can contaminate all of Europe."

German media say the campaign cost a total of €40,000,000 - clearly money well spent.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on October 03, 2016, 02:12:27 AM
I'm sure the money went to all the right people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 03, 2016, 03:59:13 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 03, 2016, 02:12:27 AM
I'm sure the money went to all the right people.

Indeed!


Also there were more invalid votes than ever, as that was a form of protest (other was staying away).

The government media is talking about "big success" of course but it is obvious to everyone this is a big slap in the face. For the past 6 months or so the entire propaganda machine was only working on scaring people into stopping the giant wave of muslim terrorists about to invade in the guise of refugees.

Numbers-wise, the Fidesz and Jobbik voters turned up and cast their No vote as required, but nobody else gave a damn. A proof that at best Fidesz have maintained their core supporters but no scaremongering can convince anyone else to believe them.

I wonder if this will prompt them to de-construct democracy even quicker, as they are way past the point of no return in terms of corruption cases and such that would get them in serious trouble if they ever lost the grip on power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 08, 2016, 04:01:47 AM
Looks like, today is going to be an important milestone in the disassembling of Hungarian democracy, a process that has been going on since 2010.

This morning, out of the blue for everyone, especially the journalists working there, the publisher of the new daily newspaper "Népszabadság" announced it halts the publication of the newspaper until "further reorganisation". They have shut down the online edition as well, but somebody among the employees have retained access to their Facebook page and wrote there how they were unaware of this until learning about it from the news.

Népszabadság was THE newspaper of the moderate left. It always had a mixed reputation, as it was THE newspaper of the communist government during the communist era, but still, they were the most publicity space for the left (liberals included), and IIRC they remained the biggest newspaper (most subscribers and most copies sold) for almost all of the past 25 years.

Just a month or so ago there were rumors that Orban's village mayor and general holder of his wealth, Mr. Meszaros was lurking around the publisher of the paper.

The paper itself did not stop with its opposition voice, in fact the last few weeks they uncovered a number of juicy stuff:
-They busted the president of the national bank, that he has been giving lucrative executive positions for her lover first in the national bank then in the "foundations" created by the national bank

-Probably more importantly, they made public a recent story about Antal Rogan, who has a fancy title but in practice he is Minister of Propaganda. They wrote about how on the weekend of the "very important national referendum" (you could hear about it from international news as well) he went, via helicopter, to the wedding of a friend of his wife, which seemed rather careless and reckless when the whole propaganda machine was yelling at people how that Sunday was to decide the fate of the country for generations to come.

The groom, maybe not coincidentally, was the richest businessman of the border region with Ukraine. Little is known of the guy, except that he is stinking rich. Being next door to the most lucrative smuggling route of the country, it is hard to not assume that's where his immense wealth is from.
At any rate, it seemed like his wedding could not be missed by Mr. Rogan.

The newspaper chased the story relentlessly. For example, initial replies from the minister told the press he had to take the helicopter as an emergency solution because they were late.
But reporters went to the scene of the wedding and saw evidence of, and talked to people who confirmed that a week before the wedding they were told to create a helicopter landing site next to the wedding's premises, so it was hardly a spur of the moment thing.

Of course, using a helicopter is hardly a big deal, but Mr. Rogan is one of the most obviously corrupt members of government, pressure on him has been mounting for about a year now.

And now, when the most sensitive story about him is published (common people's eyebrows are not raised by billions stolen as they can't fathom the amount, but tell them he uses helicopters to attend luxurious weddings and that they can understand), the publishing newspaper is abruptly closed...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on October 08, 2016, 10:48:40 AM
Wow  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 08, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
Were things really that bad under the Habsburgs?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on October 08, 2016, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 08, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
Were things really that bad under the Habsburgs?

:yes: They need a strong Germanic hand to guide them
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 08, 2016, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 08, 2016, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 08, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
Were things really that bad under the Habsburgs?

:yes: They need a strong Germanic hand to guide them

Why else do you think we have the EU? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on October 08, 2016, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2016, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 08, 2016, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 08, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
Were things really that bad under the Habsburgs?

:yes: They need a strong Germanic hand to guide them

Why else do you think we have the EU? :P

It needs to be stronger and with more direct power. If Hungarian history has told us over the last 1000 years, is that anytime Hungarians are in charge of Hungary they manage to mess things up :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 19, 2016, 04:08:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 30, 2016, 10:52:59 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4cdn.hu%2Fkraken%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--NqmKglSL--%2F6uBWiSmQos4ZAY7Ks.png&hash=b0e99c052264bbdd10d52ebb424a4b0f6f330622)

This is from October but only discovered now.

There are a couple of juicy things about this:

1. She is not Orban's wife, she is Orban's eldest daughter. The guy next to her is her husband, and recent public space - lighting mogul (his companies making huge money out of selling absolutely abysmal led lights for towns)

2. Point 1 isn't that important, just shows Bahrein's officials as morons, but the daughter and her husband has ZERO public jobs or functions. NOTHING. ZIP. Yet they were negotiating on behalf of Hungary?!

The daughter, Rachel, has been joked as heir apparent but looks like she actually IS being groomed to take over.

So far there has been only signs of her joining the clan as a "working girl" - ever since she finished her tourism school, Lorinc Meszaros, mayor of Orban's village, recent multibillionaire, and quite clearly the official holder of Orban's stolen wealth, has been buying hotels and restaurants like there is no tomorrow.


To add to this story, Tiborcz, Orban's son in law (blond guy on the pic) has been seen in discussions with the lawyer and general caretaker guy (in Hungary at least) of the Saud-Arabian "businessman" Ghaith Pharaon.
Not a huge shock as indirectly they have had several big value business transaction, in the form of Hungarian companies where Tiborcz is an owner, selling valuable properties to Mr. Pharaon.

Ghaith Pharaon has also recently bought the house just across the street from Orban's home in Budapest.

Mr. Pharaon made top 10 in Forbes "most wanted white collar criminal" list in 2008, and at his former bank, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, a 1992 US Senate report found evidence of:
money laundering, supporting of terrorism, supporting of illegal immigration, bribery, and misuse/abuse of nuclear technology.


Just reporting in case anybody has any doubts left about Hungary being in the hand of an organised crime ring.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 19, 2016, 06:17:29 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 08, 2016, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2016, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 08, 2016, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 08, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
Were things really that bad under the Habsburgs?

:yes: They need a strong Germanic hand to guide them

Why else do you think we have the EU? :P

It needs to be stronger and with more direct power. If Hungarian history has told us over the last 1000 years, is that anytime Hungarians are in charge of Hungary they manage to mess things up :contract:

Fortunately, such periods are very rare.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on October 19, 2016, 06:56:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 19, 2016, 04:08:35 AM
Just reporting in case anybody has any doubts left about Hungary being in the hand of an organised crime ring.

:weep:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on December 18, 2016, 09:45:41 PM
Zsa Zsa Gabor has died.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2017, 12:12:40 PM
Looks like time is right to go full Putin on the NGOs in Hungary.

They have been the only effective opposition for quite a while now.

For now -I have no doubt this is merely the first step- they are introducing a new law that forces officials in NGOs to make public wealth and income statements. Which no doubt will be used to smear and discredit them, culling their ranks as people not wanting to be harassed will stop working.

One of the vice presidents of Fidesz said on a press conference that NGOs, which are part of the "Soros empire" are used to "push through the interest of international finance and the idelogoy of political correctness" and these must be "pushed back", "cleaned out" "by whatever means necessary" and he also said:
"now there is an opportunity for this, with, I'll be honest, the election of the new [American] President"


Ladies and gentleman, I was one smart little boy to leave that country. Now I'll just have to worry about not being sent back there by the UK, and not having troubles when visiting my family in about 5-10 years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2017, 12:14:00 PM
Well I am glad I visited Hungary when I did then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 06, 2017, 11:43:04 AM
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--PbL6IvlG--/c_limit,w_1160/6yCkGBjn1czZGYCts.jpeg)

This is Russian state media folks. They don't even want to sugarcoat it anymore: Orban has become Putin's little bitch.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Archy on February 07, 2017, 06:52:06 AM
Putin is going to make his little bitchhole bleed  :menace:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 17, 2017, 08:36:19 AM
The big political topic recently has been a newly formed opposition group (called Momentum, seemingly made of young intellectuals. And lawyers) successfully getting permission from the relevant authority to gather signatures in petition for a local referendum on Budapest applying for the 2024 Olympics.

The more radical wing of the government press of course declared these people traitors, and during the weeks of signature-gathering, several volunteers were attacked, and there was a lot verbal abuse.

Government must had got some intel on the progress because the last few days they started gradually backing out of the whole Olympics idea.

Due to the population of Budapest the guys had to gather 134 thousand signatures to force the holding of a referendum.
They have just submitted the signatures, 266 thousand of them. :)

I am betting there won't be a referendum because Budapest's application will be retracted.

Last time there was a building momentum behind a national referendum request (that was  to let shops be open on Sundays again), the government just said "we always meant it as temporary" and cancelled the Sunday ban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on February 17, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
There's a pretty good chance that 2024 is held in Europe. Even if Budapest would probably not be a frontrunner, can't fathom the corruption levels of Orban and the IOC working together if Hungary got it.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 17, 2017, 08:53:55 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 17, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
There's a pretty good chance that 2024 is held in Europe. Even if Budapest would probably not be a frontrunner, can't fathom the corruption levels of Orban and the IOC working together if Hungary got it.  :hmm:

I think the Athens venues, 12 years after the event, would be a good indication what Budapest would "gain" in the long term:

http://www.thisisinsider.com/photos-of-the-athens-olympic-venues-2016-7/#the-softball-stadium-1
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 17, 2017, 09:32:04 AM
You can tell Fidesz is shellshocked by the number of signatures, because only one of the government funded online news portals have reported on it yet, after like 3 hours, while this is clearly the biggest political event of the last few weeks. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 17, 2017, 09:32:33 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 17, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
can't fathom the corruption levels of Orban and the IOC working together if Hungary got it.  :hmm:

Yeah, that's why people don't want it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 17, 2017, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Syt on February 17, 2017, 08:53:55 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 17, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
There's a pretty good chance that 2024 is held in Europe. Even if Budapest would probably not be a frontrunner, can't fathom the corruption levels of Orban and the IOC working together if Hungary got it.  :hmm:

I think the Athens venues, 12 years after the event, would be a good indication what Budapest would "gain" in the long term:

http://www.thisisinsider.com/photos-of-the-athens-olympic-venues-2016-7/#the-softball-stadium-1

Man people couldn't even use those venues if they wanted to, they are mostly locked up and left to rot.

Man that would be an amazing baseball facility to have access to. Kind of breaks my heart to see it decay.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on February 17, 2017, 09:45:09 PM
Just to annoy Tamas, I ate Americanized Hungarian food today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on February 18, 2017, 01:02:30 AM
Americanized beets?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 18, 2017, 02:12:02 AM
(https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--J3XkLWNJ--/t_Preview/b_rgb:ffffff,c_limit,f_jpg,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1446076749/production/designs/22019_0.jpg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 18, 2017, 04:49:50 AM
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Archy on February 20, 2017, 07:09:57 AM
Just read a story in  local paper over here. That the number of Flemish people moving to Hungary tripled.
Because they want to stay a way from the refugees and are afraid of attacks.
So mostly Vlaams Belang (Xenophobic Right) types.

Other bonusses are:
-Pensions aren't taxed
-Way cheaper as here

So Hungary is becoming the new Benidorm congratz.
I'm sorry to the Spaniards  that they loose this important demographic :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 20, 2017, 07:17:00 AM
Quote from: Archy on February 20, 2017, 07:09:57 AM
So Hungary is becoming the new Benidorm congratz.
I'm sorry to the Spaniards  that they loose this important demographic :(

Don't worry for the Spaniards, the chavs in Benidorm will keep them busy.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 20, 2017, 08:26:16 AM
Quote from: Archy on February 20, 2017, 07:09:57 AM
Just read a story in  local paper over here. That the number of Flemish people moving to Hungary tripled.
Because they want to stay a way from the refugees and are afraid of attacks.
So mostly Vlaams Belang (Xenophobic Right) types.

Other bonusses are:
-Pensions aren't taxed
-Way cheaper as here

So Hungary is becoming the new Benidorm congratz.
I'm sorry to the Spaniards  that they loose this important demographic :(

We can do without a bunch of paranoid racists, thanks. Good riddance.

Anyway, I guess that going from one dude to three, while still tripling the stats, is not really significant int he big picture.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on February 20, 2017, 09:09:29 AM
I'm coming to a mind of allowing free migration to few selected reactionary hellholes to keep the deplorables cordoned off and contained in the kind of medieval society they are so eager to build, granting the Tamases of those places refugee status in compensation.

We can even pay for the wall this time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2017, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Archy on February 20, 2017, 07:09:57 AM
Just read a story in  local paper over here. That the number of Flemish people moving to Hungary tripled.
Because they want to stay a way from the refugees and are afraid of attacks.
So mostly Vlaams Belang (Xenophobic Right) types.

Other bonusses are:
-Pensions aren't taxed
-Way cheaper as here

So Hungary is becoming the new Benidorm congratz.
I'm sorry to the Spaniards  that they loose this important demographic :(

IIRC there was some German TV station that did a big deal out of a similar "movement" from Germany to Hungary, and then when people investigated it turned out to be only the two persons who got interviewed by the TV.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Archy on February 20, 2017, 09:29:28 AM
to be honest they probably  came first  in the seventies to Spain to enjoy the reign of El generalissimo  ;)

My guess is that it tripled from 10 to 30 or such numbers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 20, 2017, 09:50:02 AM
The irony that that kind of dudes go retire to a foreign country is delightful. Also, who in their sane mind would retire to Hungary, of all places?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2017, 05:00:13 AM
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--DH-QqlpW--/6yZmgeYqAp2WAP6qs.jpeg)


Orban shows off his the local football academy's and village mayor's vast lands from atop the stadium standing on his backyard the land of the local football academy.

To whom? One of the most prominent Turkish businessman and Erdogan supporter, Adnan Polat.
The were all friendly already during Orban's visit to Turkey in 2013, although back then it was denied they met (photos are fake news I guess). This was a "private program" of the PM so this visit has not been official confirmed either.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 21, 2017, 06:08:05 AM
Austrian media reports that the Hungarian food watchdog agency has compared various food items between Hungary and Austria and found that Hungarians receive products of inferior quality:
- Nutella is not as creamy in Hungary
- Coca-Cola is less tasty and more "flat"
- Nestlé cocoa powder in Austria is "more harmonious and intense"
- in Austria, a spaghetti box contained 3 different cheese sauce ingredients, in Hungary none

They say they want to compare 100 products that are sold in Hungary and other countries in order to ensure Hungarian customers are treated fairly.

Part of this is surely to complain about foreign supermarket chains in the Hungarian market. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 31, 2017, 04:18:09 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39429309

QuoteHungary university backed by Soros 'is facing closure'

Students and staff at the Central European University (CEU) in Hungary are protesting against what they say are government plans to close it down.

The university says new legislation proposed by the right-wing Fidesz government on Tuesday night makes it impossible for it to function.

The CEU's founder, philanthropist George Soros, has a strained relationship with the PM Viktor Orban.

But the government says it supports the university and does not want it to go.

Education Secretary Laszlo Palkovics said the proposed legislation followed a review of 28 foreign universities operating in Hungary, including the CEU in Budapest.

"This is not an anti-CEU investigation and not against Mr Soros," he said.

The Hungary-born billionaire founded the university in 1991 and continues to fund it.

He wanted the CEU to be a bastion of liberal thought and promote the values of an open society and democracy.

But the university appears to have become the latest target in a campaign by Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government against liberal values.

The government says the CEU and other foreign-funded universities are operating outside the law, and that the new legislation aims to create a new legal footing.

The CEU, established and registered in New York State, is an independent, private university for masters and PhD students from more than 100 countries.

If approved by parliament, the law would mean the university can only continue working if an intergovernmental agreement between US President Donald Trump and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban is signed, and if the university establishes a campus in the US by February next year.

The first is unlikely - both Mr Trump and Mr Orban are sworn enemies of Mr Soros. The second is physically impossible.

Twenty-seven other foreign universities will be affected by the legislation, Education Secretary Laszlo Palkovics told the BBC, and all must abide by the new law.

Only the CEU has no campus in its home country, the US.

But CEU Rector Michael Ignatieff says the university is fully legal and the new law has been designed to disable it.

"We will defend our achievements vigorously against anyone who seeks to defame our work in the eyes of the Hungarian people," he said.

The new rules would force the CEU to change its name, set up a campus in New York, change its curriculum and become subservient to both the US and Hungarian governments.

Protesting staff and students are now seeking the support of other universities, both in Hungary and worldwide.

It comes at a time of deteriorating relations between US President Donald Trump and Mr Soros, who recently described the new occupant of the White House as "an imposter, a [political] conman and a would-be dictator".

Relations between Mr Soros and Mr Orban - a keen supporter of the US president - also became strained when Mr Orban accused him of wanting a role in Hungarian politics and supporting the influx of migrants into Europe.

Mr Orban recently claimed Hungary was "under siege" from asylum seekers.

The prime minister won a scholarship sponsored by Mr Soros to study at Oxford university and the pair were allies in the days immediately following the fall of communism.
But with the two now at loggerheads, NGOs partially funded by Mr Soros' Open Society Foundation are under pressure to close in Hungary.

The Central European University
- Founded to "resuscitate and revive intellectual freedom" in parts of Europe that had endured the "horrific ideologies" of communism and fascism
- Occupies a building that began as an aristocrat's palace before becoming state-owned offices for a planned socialist economy
- Has 1,440 students - 335 from Hungary and the rest from 107 other countries
- Presents itself as a champion of free speech, with links to universities in Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia and Kazakhstan
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 31, 2017, 04:30:30 AM
Quote from: Archy on February 20, 2017, 07:09:57 AM
So mostly Vlaams Belang (Xenophobic Right) types.

don't worry: we get xenophobic islamists in their place: by the boatload.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 31, 2017, 04:39:36 AM
I hope CEU will just pack up and leave - I think the real danger is that the usual Orbanesque tactic is going to be used against them: the government opened with this outrageous new bill that would mean closure. There will be negotiations, promises made, and then CEU will be neutered, compromised, ran down, and then the government will break its promise and get rid of them anyways in a few years.

It is far from impossible, however, that all they want is to pick a fight with the "liberal elite" - elections are coming next year and their fences have actually stopped migrants, so they are gearing up for a fight against Brussels since they need SOME enemy to fight (there will be giant posters around the country saying "We need to stop Brussels!"). Only problem is, there is no fight to fight, yet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 31, 2017, 05:10:29 AM
that fence must have been about the only thing he got right since the start of his reign. The Balkan states probably saved the EU from a lot of misery.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 03, 2017, 10:13:00 AM
One of the main guys of the Christian Democrats (a make-believe party nominally in coalition with Fidesz but totally their proxy - they don't even register on party polls) declared CEU to be the "officers school" of an "international army" with an "international agenda".

Also, Orban "noticed nerves are short" over the CEU issue, so he had Parliament make the bill come into effect quicker than default - it will be law from tomorrow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 03, 2017, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 03, 2017, 10:13:00 AM


Also, Orban "noticed nerves are short" over the CEU issue, so he had Parliament make the bill come into effect quicker than default - it will be law from tomorrow.

And it seems at the last moment they have extended it just in case: the "casus belli" for this law is the suddenly unacceptable practice of offering not just a Hungarian diploma but also a foreign one. In CEU's case, American.

The original bill had some pretty hard new requirements for this, among others, a state-level agreement between Hungary and the country for which the other diploma is issued.
The last moment they have changed this, allegedly, so now the laws says that in cases where the other country is a federal one, like the US, the federal government must sign an agreement with the Hungarian government for the continued existence of the university.

Which is, as I have read, is a very foolproof "GTFO, foreign uni!" rule, as the US government can't make such education decisions on the federal level.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 04, 2017, 09:21:01 AM
Well, looks like the law passed.

Vienna's vice-mayor has extended an invitation to the CEU to move to Vienna.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2017, 10:04:43 AM
Presently I see two possible scenarios:

-CEU was just a box to tick on a long list of "possible trouble spots to eliminate" a list they have been working on since 2011. They totally did not anticipate the scandal, but since the scandal is not bad for them, they are just rolling with it

-They were looking for a brawl and they were smart enough to realise CEU is a great target for that.
As I mentioned, they have just started a huge media campaign about "let's stop Brussels!" which seemed problematic, as though it has been in line with their rhetoric from the past half a year, Brussels, until this point, had not obliged them to start any rucus over anything.

So they were about to start a fight where the other side was not going to show up. They have that nicely covered now, with the exact suspicious international elite they have been warning their followers about, rallying to save CEU. Which is of course just proves the long reach of Soros.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2017, 11:34:12 AM
Oh and one of the conspiracy theories is that Putin during his February visit ordered Orban to close CEU, as it is considered a spy base and a tool to plant agents to Russia, by the Russians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 05, 2017, 07:23:43 AM
Next ones up are NGOs.

This week they'll file the bill that will force all NGOs receiving over around 25 thousand dollars in foreign donations to register with the state and make their finances public.

Those who receive aid from abroad will also have to include a notification on all their publications that states they are "an organisation funded from abroad"

By the end of this year, the EU will truly have a mini Russia within its borders. And will do nothing about it.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 05, 2017, 07:32:16 AM
It seems that right now the EU has too many fires to put off, and it's abandoning this one. But we should show up. One of the big minuses of the Brits fucking off is that it shrinks the ranks of liberal nations within the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2017, 06:42:31 AM
Also Hungary has signed a nuclear deal with Iran to build small scale nuclear reactors together for sale to African and Asian countries  :showoff:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 06, 2017, 01:30:34 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 06, 2017, 06:42:31 AM
Also Hungary has signed a nuclear deal with Iran to build small scale nuclear reactors together for sale to African and Asian countries  :showoff:

:cheers:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on April 06, 2017, 03:51:11 PM
African managed nuclear reactors?  What could go wrong...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 06, 2017, 03:53:58 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 06, 2017, 03:51:11 PM
African managed nuclear reactors?  What could go wrong...

They haven't blown up yet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 07, 2017, 02:42:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 06, 2017, 06:42:31 AM
Also Hungary has signed a nuclear deal with Iran to build small scale nuclear reactors together for sale to African and Asian countries  :showoff:

sounds like a plot to stop migrants by irradiating them at the source...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 09, 2017, 03:03:28 PM
Right now the pro-CEU demonstration, is/was the demonstration closest to turning violent since 2010. I am watching it live on a journalist's FB feed.

the more hardcore couple of thousand people decided to march on the Fidesz headquarters, the and the riot police stopped them in a fairly tight street.

The crowd tried to push through (not violently, just pushing against police) when that failed the police cohort pushed forward and was probably minutes away from creating a stanpede as they pushed people against each other in the tight space. Luckily they stopped.

Now there is a standoff that I think is going to see the end of the demonstration.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2017, 05:05:08 PM
The CEU law has been signed by the President. A spontaneous demonstration in front of his office attracted around 1500 people, they are still marching through Budapest.

I have big respect for the demonstrators, who are mostly young people. But I am almost certain this will die down without achieving anything. I don't think a private university owned by the Jewish villain of the year will do much to unite the country behind them, even if for most of them I believe this was just the final straw, and the realisation that their hopes of being able to live some remotely modern/free life under Orban is impossible, and they are not specifically on the street to just save CEU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 11, 2017, 02:36:38 AM
When we talk about free movement it is usually in the context of the host nations. I'm equally interested in what happens in what one might call the "donor" nations.

So Hungary has a nasty small-minded government. It is also a relatively poor part of the EU. One has to wonder what proportion of the bright, liberal-minded and well-educated youth leave in disgust. It makes it easier for Orban to run the place but is pretty disastrous for Hungary of course.

The worst case of this in the EU is probably Bulgaria, which is experiencing demographic collapse. Apparently the overwhelming majority of new doctors, for example, simply leave http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25014725
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on April 11, 2017, 02:44:49 AM
Many Eastern European countries seem to have the same problem the UK has but on a much greater scale.
You've the capital. Which is really doing quite well. Warsaw us emerging as the new Berlin as Berlin is selling out, Budapest too is apparently popular with a certain set.
They're really becoming rich international cities with lots of very good jobs.
... Then you've the rest. Berift of industry and with minimal government interest in trying to fix things you've a situation where you get out or slowly rot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 03:57:33 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 11, 2017, 02:44:49 AM
Many Eastern European countries seem to have the same problem the UK has but on a much greater scale.
You've the capital. Which is really doing quite well. Warsaw us emerging as the new Berlin as Berlin is selling out, Budapest too is apparently popular with a certain set.
They're really becoming rich international cities with lots of very good jobs.
... Then you've the rest. Berift of industry and with minimal government interest in trying to fix things you've a situation where you get out or slowly rot.

It's a cultural thing. As always in history, big cities are on the forefront of cultural change. There are far more differences between the middle-class/young portion of Budapest and the rural parts of Hungary, than there are between middle-class/young Budapest and middle class/young London, for example, and I am quite sure the same is true for most countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 04:00:33 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 11, 2017, 02:36:38 AM
When we talk about free movement it is usually in the context of the host nations. I'm equally interested in what happens in what one might call the "donor" nations.

So Hungary has a nasty small-minded government. It is also a relatively poor part of the EU. One has to wonder what proportion of the bright, liberal-minded and well-educated youth leave in disgust. It makes it easier for Orban to run the place but is pretty disastrous for Hungary of course.

The worst case of this in the EU is probably Bulgaria, which is experiencing demographic collapse. Apparently the overwhelming majority of new doctors, for example, simply leave http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25014725

It is twisted and sad what an incredible asset the EU has turned out to be for dictator wannabees like Orban. I think it is a major factor that potentially as much as 600 thousand motivated, educated Hungarians (plus me, as well) are now working and living abroad. If Hungary went with the classic autocratic method of closing them in, I am convinced there would be big unrest in the country.

And on the other hand the massive EU funding  the country receives has allowed not only the raising of a totally new class of oligarchs personally in the pocket of Orban, but also has kept the country afloat despite incredible structural problems, ineptitude and rampant corruption.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 04:04:42 AM
Also, it is a bit heartbreaking that chanting "Europe" and the waving/planting of the EU flag are now a signs of anti-government protest, in an EU member state.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 11, 2017, 04:39:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 04:04:42 AM
Also, it is a bit heartbreaking that chanting "Europe" and the waving/planting of the EU flag are now a signs of anti-government protest, in an EU member state.

Waving the Spanish flag is a sign of anti-government protest in certain parts of Spain, so it's not that worrisome imho.

That said, I've always wondered about Orban's anti-EU rethoric when he depends so much on EU's redistributive policies. I guess he's aware the EU isn't likely to call his bluff. The underlying issue here is that there's actually pretty little that the EU can do to compel a misbehaving member nation - besides cutting funding, which is something the EU has been *very* hesitant to do. Despite what Brexiteer hysterics might suggest, member nations are very much sovereign.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 10:38:46 AM
As the sign of times, the leadership of 3 big universities in Hungary have.... warned their students, one way or the other, to refrain from supporting CEU, and keep their heads down in the interest of their own universities.

I have read several commenters discussing how the country has a worse atmosphere than the 80s... In the 80s, late 80s especially they had the same kind of fear to talk openly in universities, state-owned workplaces etc. but it was thawing quickly and everyone felt things were coming to an end. Now they have the feeling the "better keep my mouth shut" times are only starting.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2017, 10:48:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 11, 2017, 02:44:49 AM
Berlin is selling out

wut?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 11, 2017, 10:55:48 AM
I presume he means it is being gentrified. Back in the day you could live in former East Berlin for cheap.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 11:19:30 AM
Two poor idiots tried to throw paint at the Presidential building last night. Mostly just poured paint on some police officers though.

One was arrested on the spot, he is a regular on protests. He was on probation and the building is heritage one so he is probably screwed.

The other guy was not taken there, he went home with his girlfriend. Then around 2AM 7(!) police officers came for him. His girlfriend has not been able to talk to him since.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2017, 11:33:08 AM
Also I'd like to point out, when you create such an incident on anti-government protest, the police turns up to grab you from your home 2-3 hours after the fact, based only on getting your face on camera.

When a bunch of bald gorillas physically prevented an opposition MP from filing a referendum request with the corresponding office, the same police declared after some months that they were not able to identify and find any of the men.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 21, 2017, 04:20:05 AM
Interesting episode amidst the recent protests.

A reggae-singer ultra-hippy guy threw some water-based paint on the Soviet soldiers memorial in the middle of Budapest. It was in solidarity of two other protesters who were still arrested at the time for doing the same with the presidential palace (they have been released since then, sentenced to 500 hours of public work, which BTW is more severe punishment for a stunt like this than what some people got for it in 1989 from the communists).

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--xvipt57x--/6zz5wXK41poMnYRss.jpeg)


So anyways, the reggae guy (sitting above on the right) got released with a fairly minor fine. Of course, there was a bit of a debate about his actions. Sure, the government is quickly becoming a Russian satellite like in the old days but maybe the memorial of fallen soldiers is not the best target for protests.

Well, I can tell you who definitely felt like it was a bad idea: Magomed, the Chechen talking mountain living in Budapest, who found reggae guy and had him apologise in a Youtube video:
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--Ql9y3KT6--/c_limit,h_450,w_760/702N3GRoi5JEOGEOs.jpeg)

The video unfortunately has been made private since then, but it started with Magomed speaking in Russian telling how they "took action to find this citizen, and talk to him" they had a "discussion" and "convinced him" that he should apologise. Which then the guy did in English on the video.

I have read this has been a common Chechen way of operating with critics in Russia, i.e. sending muscular men to have conversations with the person who got out of line one way or the other, until they publicly show remorse.

So yeah, now not only Hungarian politics LOOK like Russian one, we actually have Russians coming over to do some Russian-style bullying as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 21, 2017, 04:29:57 AM
Who's that Magomed guy and what's a Chechen thug like he apparently is doing in Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 21, 2017, 04:34:13 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 21, 2017, 04:29:57 AM
Who's that Magomed guy and what's a Chechen thug like he apparently is doing in Hungary?

He is a nobody, I mean he has not made any public appearances before. He just allegedly lives in Budapest.

Maybe he bought his stay in the visa-for-bonds program like thousands of other Russian, Chinese, and Middle Eastern shady characters. :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 22, 2017, 06:30:19 AM
Hippy guy has shed more light on the story in a newspaper interview.

He said Magomed found him via the Internet, they had a "nice chat" and he did not feel threatened.

Magomed, however, informed him that his action caused big upheaval in the Russian community, and not all of them are as understanding as he is: he suggested making that apology-video, to prevent hippy guy and his family from coming under danger.

Meanwhile, another paper investigated Magomed a bit: he seems to be a Chechen asylum seeker from 2004. He has a Hungarian wife and is running a vodka import business, importing from his uncle's vodka factory in Russia.

He was also once in a radio interview, about two years ago where he bragged how "them" (I guess Russian patriots in Hungary) have a friend in Parliament. Later he kinda' retreated from that claim saying it was an old guy who worked in the building but not anymore.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 22, 2017, 07:38:32 AM
It would be so fucking cool to have a friend who was in Parliament. :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 22, 2017, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 22, 2017, 07:38:32 AM
It would be so fucking cool to have a friend who was in Parliament. :cool:

well, we know someone who knows the ambassador. Nearly there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 24, 2017, 04:12:01 AM
A Russian guy who works at their embassy in Budapest handed over proof to the press that this Magomed guy was freaking out on a private Russian Facebook group initially, declaring that "people like this should be maimed and recorded on camera so others learn from their lesson. This piece of crap has not deal with Russians before. I'd teach him a lesson. PEOPLE, HELP ME FIND HIM!"

He only calmed down after encountering hippy guy's willingness to discuss and repent.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 24, 2017, 09:53:18 AM
Also I am genuinely wondering how long the protest -if maintained- can remain peaceful.

After the first couple of nights they became quite cheerful affairs with marching and yelling creative slogans, ending usually with an improvised street party.

However, after about 15 years of steady escalation and seeking of enemies, the governing part just can't stop: they have had a rhetoric regarding these protests that implies a call for violence from their supporters, really.

Most notably Orban himself was talking about "honest humble Christian people" having "itchy palms" (a Hungarian expression for when you are eager to start a brawl) because of these demonstrators, and this line has been repeating from other prominents, and their press.

During the gathering of signatures for the anti-Olympics referendum there were several incidents of pro-government people hitting activists, just today a socialist activist, a 22 years old girl, gathering signatures for something for her party, was hit in the chest by somebody.

It's incredible. Even when things would just probably peter out if left ignored, they just can't help themselves: they are eager to try and escalate. In this case, to actually rile up civilians into physical violence against each other.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2017, 10:55:10 AM
Let's see if it's not too little, too late. Apparently there are also calls to kick Fidesz out of the European People's Party group in the European Parliament.

QuoteEU takes legal action against Hungary over Soros-backed university

Notice sent to Viktor Orbán's government over law that could force closure of institution founded by US billionaire


The EU has launched the first stage of legal action against Hungary over its treatment of a leading university which claims it is the victim of a government campaign to shut it down.

A letter of formal notice has been sent to Viktor Orbán's rightwing government, asking Budapest to present an explanation for an alleged breach of EU law in relation to the Central European University (CEU), founded by George Soros.

The move came on the same day as the Hungarian prime minister was due to address the European parliament during a debate on Hungary's approach to higher education and NGOs, setting the scene for a fresh clash between the country and the EU.

Brussels and Budapest have been at loggerheads over migration quotas and the detention of refugees in camps ringed with barbed wire on the Hungarian border.

The Hungarian government introduced tough measures in April for foreign-registered universities, in a move that has been attacked by CEU as one of the most serious assaults on academic freedom since the end of the second world war.

Under the legislation, those working at the CEU will in future require work permits, which the institution says will limit its ability to hire staff. The government has also demanded that the university open a wing in in the US and no longer teach US-accredited courses.

After a meeting of the EU's 28 commissioners, Valdis Dombrovskis, a European commission vice-president, said the first step of an infringement procedure would be taken on the grounds that the government was seeking to unlawfully breach a higher education institution's right to exist and operate as a service.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 08, 2017, 12:54:11 PM
This is why Orban will never leave the EU, no matter how much he postures about it. All the big employers are foreign multinationals and they are all integrated into the international supply chains. Especially noticable is that like half of the Hungarian provinces have automotive parts manufacturers or in the case of Mercedes an automotive OEM as biggest employer. That only works due to EU membership.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.cdn.indexvas.hu%2F1%2F0%2F1678%2F16781%2F167814%2F16781444_0722db0db4cc79a3c7dd506b0feca37b_wm.jpg&hash=501e1c1e38da945fa6e3fce11da074e50c0af214)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 08, 2017, 01:12:55 PM
When is Orban going to move on all these evil globalist Jew-funded corporations making wage slaves of good Hungarians Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 08, 2017, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 08, 2017, 01:12:55 PM
When is Orban going to move on all these evil globalist Jew-funded corporations making wage slaves of good Hungarians Tamas?


Orban will stay in the EU until they keep paying tribute to him. Sorry, I mean paying the development grants that are spent on pointless vanity projects that are easy to steal extreme amounts of money out of.
Then off we (well, them!) go to the Eastern Bloc again.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 08, 2017, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 08, 2017, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 08, 2017, 01:12:55 PM
When is Orban going to move on all these evil globalist Jew-funded corporations making wage slaves of good Hungarians Tamas?


Orban will stay in the EU until they keep paying tribute to him. Sorry, I mean paying the development grants that are spent on pointless vanity projects that are easy to steal extreme amounts of money out of.
Then off we (well, them!) go to the Eastern Bloc again.
Those automotive factories will close fast without EU single market. No point in keeping them in Hungary without that. Car plants need major reinvestments every 5-7 years anyway, so they can move out quite quickly after the winds change.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 08, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 08, 2017, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 08, 2017, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 08, 2017, 01:12:55 PM
When is Orban going to move on all these evil globalist Jew-funded corporations making wage slaves of good Hungarians Tamas?


Orban will stay in the EU until they keep paying tribute to him. Sorry, I mean paying the development grants that are spent on pointless vanity projects that are easy to steal extreme amounts of money out of.
Then off we (well, them!) go to the Eastern Bloc again.
Those automotive factories will close fast without EU single market. No point in keeping them in Hungary without that. Car plants need major reinvestments every 5-7 years anyway, so they can move out quite quickly after the winds change.

Worst case scenario they will receive compensation for the tariffs in the form of subsidies.

Besides, Fidesz has kind of  iven up all notion of actually governing. There are no apparent intentions to fix broken systems like health care, not even in terms of lip service given to them. They have been busy with 2 things:
-Massive projects like hoping for the Olympics, the swimming world cup (right now costing about 6 times as much as original plans and they are not done), and the new nuclear power plant.
-Gradual tear down of checks and balances and Russification of the political system. This is getting very close to completion

Anyone dares to critique any of these, become labelled as Soros-funded people who are working on getting more migrants into the country.

Worryingly, the 3rd consistent point for them has been, for several years now, an almost ridiculously warm attitude toward Russia. Nowadays it has gotten so bad that the state news agency main source seems to be its Russian counterpart.

There seems to be a trajectory here, and I am quite convinced it will throw the country out of the EU within 10-15 years. Yes it will lead to eventual economic ruin but that will not effect the maffia the party has built, and they do not concern themselves with anybody else.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 08, 2017, 03:35:01 PM
No one gives a fuck for tariffs. That's easy to calculate and handle.
It's the non-tariff barriers for trade that the single market removes that makes it so attractive. Not that e.g. the Brexiteers would understand that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on May 08, 2017, 03:36:21 PM
You need to be making money in order to steal from it. I guess they expect the Russians to write the bribe checks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2017, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 08, 2017, 03:36:21 PM
You need to be making money in order to steal from it. I guess they expect the Russians to write the bribe checks.

"Kleptocracy works great until you run out of other people's money."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 08, 2017, 03:41:17 PM
Those checks will bounce. The oil age is quickly coming to an end.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 08, 2017, 03:43:47 PM
The other factor is the EU itself having enough of Orban, even if I can't see them ever taking action. Orban will not relinquish power. He would rather lead the country out of the EU no matter the consequences.

I am also sure he will not officially lose an election again. If they get less votes they will cheat. His reign will end with either a palace coup (extremely unlikely unless he is like 80 and senile or something), or an uprising.

He, his family, and his henchmen has stolen incredible amounts of money. For them losing power isn't about sitting in opposition benches for a few years, but going to prison. They will not just stand up and succumb to that for the ridiculous reason of receiving less votes on some election.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 08, 2017, 03:45:48 PM
Well hopefully they and Maduro will be hanging out together in Saudi Arabia soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Archy on May 18, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Orban got apparently a slap on the wrist from the European parliament and got told he was a naughty boy. Apparently some of the parties of his parties fraction even supported the notion. As far as I can see this is mostly hot air though
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 18, 2017, 11:15:05 AM
Quote from: Archy on May 18, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Orban got apparently a slap on the wrist from the European parliament and got told he was a naughty boy. Apparently some of the parties of his parties fraction even supported the notion. As far as I can see this is mostly hot air though

It is the first step in removing voting rights (and funds) from Hungary. But there are like 9 steps. This was just a decision to propose the proposal of a proposal, basically, which will have to go through all levels of power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 18, 2017, 12:40:48 PM
Quote from: Archy on May 18, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Orban got apparently a slap on the wrist from the European parliament and got told he was a naughty boy. Apparently some of the parties of his parties fraction even supported the notion. As far as I can see this is mostly hot air though

classic 'tsjevenstreek' as they call it. Nothing will come of it and the cash'll keep flowing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 04:18:29 AM
Turn on captions, watch, and feel better about your country's politics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30AEBSTcK7w


This is a new ad commissioned by the Hungarian government. This IS the level of Hungarian state politics at the moment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on June 30, 2017, 04:34:38 AM
Ack. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 10, 2017, 02:23:11 PM
In relation to this, looks like Soros has decided to topple everything in the world.

In Israel they further want to restrict funding options for human right organisations, and one of the creators of the bill call it "Lex Soros"

In Romania, the socialist Prime Minister got busted with some kind of offshore account in Brasil. He is blaming Soros for wanting to topple him.

This was shot from a Romanian TV program, it allegedly says: "Soros is aggressively quiet":

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ea94188a2ea72e7fb1424ce16c9c082aece15059c3523aab036e75cce27ded94.jpg)


What the FUCK is happening in the world? We will end up making the 1930s look rational.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 10, 2017, 02:48:27 PM
Man what are they going to do once Soros dies? Any other Jews they can find to claim run the world? Sitting over there being threatening by quietly aggressively not doing anything, which only proves it is all true!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 10, 2017, 03:49:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2017, 02:48:27 PM
Man what are they going to do once Soros dies? Any other Jews they can find to claim run the world? Sitting over there being threatening by quietly aggressively not doing anything, which only proves it is all true!

One of the Hungarian propaganda channels (one of the two nation-wide private terrestrial channels, now owned by Andrew Vajna, one of Orban's new oligarchs) has already found him I think: Soros Junior.

They ran a piece on the young magnate who by day helps running his father's empire (gasp) and by night loves to party ( double gasp! )
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 20, 2017, 11:45:04 AM
It is time for the annual "Free University of Tusvanyos" which is a sort of summer political festival of the Hungarian right. They get together and have discussions and speeches and such. This is where usually Orban says some stuff which make headlines, like his pledge of allegiance to illiberalism a couple of years back.

He hasn't spoken yet, but his Human Resources Minister, one of the dumbest most servient fucktard of the government (and there is competition, believe me) has already managed a golden one:

In reference to Hungarians across the border in neighbouring countries, he was told a complaint that many Hungarian families don't take their kids to the Hungarian-speaking schools (in Slovakia in this case) because "there are many Hungarian-speaking gypsies there".

To address this concern, Minister Balogh (BTW he is also an actual minister, I mean a protestant priest of some sort) said that yes, the government has not decided, if the Hungarian-speaking gypsy communities across the border are " a burden, or a resource to us".
And connected to that, in the Hungarian schools abroad financed by Budapest, how do they define "Hungarian" - shall it include gypsies, or should they sponsor separate schools for them.

:huh:

Minister Balogh is the one on the right, he is with some Transylvanian calvinist bishop of sorts, the hat was his gift:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--03uro3R8--/72K6D2OrA6bW1Z212ms.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2017, 02:10:04 PM
Hey I thought Hungary was against schools being funded by people outside of a country :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 21, 2017, 07:39:35 AM
Next wonderful story:

The Budapest public transport company (owned by the city) just a week ago launched, after much delays and lots of money spent, their e-ticket system.

A 18 years old kid, living outside of Budapest, discovered that the IT geniuses who received all this money, had the properties of your online purchase submit in URL. So he tried what happens if he orders a monthly pass and replaces the price in the URL, making it practically free. Basically, reducing the price from cca 15 pounds to 20p

It of course worked! The guy finished the purchase to confirm, then contacted the IT company (huge one, T-systems, owned by german t-mobile), with details, and his name and address, warning them of the easy exploit.

The company, quite promptly, proceeded to file a charge against him at the police. The transportation company approved of this.

Last night police officers went to his home address and took the kid in for questioning.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Monoriu on July 21, 2017, 08:04:54 AM
In China, this is known as 'rather than solve the problem, it is easier to (dis)solve the person who reported the problem.'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 25, 2017, 04:11:40 AM
Uh oh!

The departing Dutch ambassador in Budapest gave an interview to an opposition paper where he made two main remarks: he said islamists are losers of globalisation who turn toward radical beliefs to find comfort, much like the Hungarian government does, and that the EU should stop financing corrupt regimes (like Hungary's).

Today, the Hungarian ambassador to Holland has been recalled and ambassadorial relationships ceased until further notice. Somebody touched on a couple of nerves it seems.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on August 25, 2017, 04:32:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2017, 04:11:40 AM
Uh oh!

The departing Dutch ambassador in Budapest gave an interview to an opposition paper where he made two main remarks: he said islamists are losers of globalisation who turn toward radical beliefs to find comfort, much like the Hungarian government does, and that the EU should stop financing corrupt regimes (like Hungary's).

Today, the Hungarian ambassador to Holland has been recalled and ambassadorial relationships ceased until further notice. Somebody touched on a couple of nerves it seems.  :lol:

Good on him!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on August 25, 2017, 05:52:29 AM
How many times in the past have diplomatic relations ceased between two EU states?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 25, 2017, 06:15:47 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 25, 2017, 05:52:29 AM
How many times in the past have diplomatic relations ceased between two EU states?

well they'll maintain diplomatic relations, but on a lower level.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on August 25, 2017, 06:29:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2017, 06:15:47 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 25, 2017, 05:52:29 AM
How many times in the past have diplomatic relations ceased between two EU states?

well they'll maintain diplomatic relations, but on a lower level.

Gay.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on August 25, 2017, 06:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2017, 06:15:47 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 25, 2017, 05:52:29 AM
How many times in the past have diplomatic relations ceased between two EU states?

well they'll maintain diplomatic relations, but on a lower level.

Hungary is going to ghost the Netherlands?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 25, 2017, 11:07:51 AM
Apparently, fans of the government have flooded the ambassador's Facebook page, leaving insulting comments in horrible English, and sometimes German  :lol:

My personal favourite:
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--wDmR2DZF--/73EMnvvH6rkt9sqs.png)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on August 25, 2017, 11:09:11 AM
Descendant? Really harsh, that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 18, 2017, 09:37:15 AM
Recently Valmy referred to how these guys have been using the method of accusing your enemies of the things you do.

I guess Orban lifted it to new hights today in Parliament when he "pleaded with" the opposition "not to be in politics for the power and the money"


:lmfao:

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 05:16:51 AM
Well, the degradation and disintegration of Hungarian politics must be reaching its final stage. Read on, as it is not everyday you can study live such a process. First of all, remember that Hungary will have general elections Spring of 2018, so emotions are rising.


I am sure I wrote here about the Scorcese-worthy breakup of Orban and his highschool friend a couple of years ago. The ex-friend, Simicska, was the business end of operations and he was the first oligarch to be built up to support the Party. Actually, you can say that it was his shady financial operations that helped the party survive the hard years while Orban led them from one defeat to another.

Orban probably didn't like that there was one person of power left whom he could not directly control, so he built up some counter-oligarchs and backstabbed his highschool buddy.
On the day when that became clear, Simicska was on a verbal rampage to major media outlets. His repeated phrase was "Orban egy geci" which is in non-literal translation equals to "Orban is a cunt!".
That sentence has become a favourite slogan to spray-paint on walls since then, especially since local authorities always rushed to get rid of it.

After all this, Simicska has unofficially started to finance Jobbik, and Jobbik started to unofficially and meekly drift toward the center, since Fidesz has been taking up all the air on the far right. This is very much an ongoing process as Jobbik tries to appeal to the center without losing the rabid lunatic Nazis. A tough challenge.

Simicska's main weapon that got left for him was his vast empire of public advertisement spaces - helped to grab by the Fidesz government during happier times. He had been using it to put Jobbik's adverts on it.

That was until a couple of weeks ago when specific legislation was made to prevent this. Local authorities proceeded to remove the adverts with great speed and efficiency.


So what happened a few days ago? Simicska probably had too much to drink one night, and he strolled through the high street of his home town (Veszprem), and spray-painted the infamous "Orban is a cunt" message on his own -now empty- advert places, until stopped by the police:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.cdn.indexvas.hu%2F1%2F0%2F1844%2F18447%2F184479%2F18447985_1c50758d7b94b7950acf970710767f2d_wm.jpg&hash=ff4a5c41095ca5aeaeeb633e6ccc26d6d6330679)


Fear not, however, because the next morning, as captured by the camera of an opposition TV, a couple of hooded patriots painted it over. They later were revealed to be prominent local members of the Fidesz youth organisation, Fidelitas:
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--7vOMzdrG--/w_1160/74CujtllX0WSA55ls.png)

No police action was taken in this case.

Next episode of this unfolding battle of political titans was Simicska's son, who posted on Facebook a photo of himself painting the symbolic sentence on his family's property, with the caption "Go Dad!"

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--IDD77zkN--/w_1160/74EDIjEKIvDFCG7ps.png)


Not wanting to left behind in this rapid evolution of politics, Momentum, the youngest opposition organisation chimed in, painting "Orban will be jailed" to  some of these iconic advert places:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--D5R09ZPt--/w_1160/74Dxu76tRipxAH5ns.jpeg)


That brings us to today, and a very minor, always kind of insane political TV personality, former employee of Simicska, but someone who very dramatically and openly deserted him after he broke away from the Dear Leader. She posted a video of herself, going to Simicska's home, and spray-painting "go Lajos" (Simicska's first name) on his wall:
https://www.facebook.com/echotvinformator/videos/1735510066744028/

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--D27vulov--/c_limit,w_1160/74HP06VnPWPHCG6ua.gif)




Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 06, 2017, 05:42:47 AM
Could lose a few years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 10:55:44 AM
Meanwhile, the government is making a move to disband Jobbik. Probably they only want to keep them in the news as being under police investigation during the campaign, but who knows....

Jobbik allegedly didn't comply with some official authority to submit their finances. Jobbik claims they tried, but it was refused by the authority. And then today the Prosecutor's Office started proceedings against them for failing to submit the papers.

Fidesz joined in calling it the "largest party-financing scandal ever"

Getting all kinds of 1950s vibes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 06, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
Failure to submit paperwork = GREATEST SCANDAL EVAH!!11
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on October 06, 2017, 11:58:40 AM
I can't believe I'm asking this, but where is the political left in all of this Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 06, 2017, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 06, 2017, 11:58:40 AM
I can't believe I'm asking this, but where is the political left in all of this Tamas?

They generally only get about 25% of the vote. They can pretty much only do anything if they have a centrist party to ally with...so Jobbik going less Nazi was pretty much the only danger Fidesz could be in.

Though Tamas has mentioned there is a fake left wing party that Fidesz uses to siphon off their support. Not sure about that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 02:58:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 06, 2017, 11:58:40 AM
I can't believe I'm asking this, but where is the political left in all of this Tamas?

The once grandest, and still strongest, the Socialist are too busy imploding. They had a very talented and determined mayor of one of our big cities as their PM candidate, until about a week ago when he resigned his candidacy, citing constant efforts from within the party to sabotage him, and accusing the part of being under the influence of people on Fidesz' payroll. Which, BTW, would be the only logical explanation for their dysmal performance in opposition the past 8 years.

Then you have DK which is basically the personal party of former PM Gyurcsany, supported by 1-2% of the population, mainly pensioners.

That 1-2%, though, puts them very much in competition with the 4-5 other tiny opposition parties that were all at different points of these 8 years, new opposition hopefuls but failed to grab people's imagination.

Then there is LMP, they might be able to do as much as 5% of the votes. They are supposed to be a modern left/Green party, and in a lot of ways they are Parliamentary opposition with the most cojones, but they are still suspect to me as being a Fidesz decoy. Having at least two senior members with serious family and/or business ties to Fidesz prominents sure doesn't help.

Honorary mention should go out to Momentum, the newest formation.they gained fame by running the successful campaign to gather enough signatures for a national referendum against hosting the Olympics in 2024. They are young and determined, but not only they have been losing momentum (haha), but also their leadership creeps me out. Look like some major sociopaths to me.


Also, it is worth mentioning that there is expected to be around 400 political parties running in the election next year, about 12-20 of these will be able to field a candidate in all voting districts, the rest will have limited to a few.

This is because 4 years ago the government had this genius new law. It is extremely easy to ground a party and start receiving financial support for campaigning from the state, with extremely lacks rules on what you can spend it on. As such, forming a tiny party to run in a few districts has become the scammer's wet dream.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on October 06, 2017, 03:21:15 PM
Kind of reminds me of the saying 'To have total control you must control both sides of the law', but looks like Fidez are trying to do that with all parties that are serious contenders to their rule.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 15, 2017, 11:05:20 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-13/orban-ally-flaunts-power-as-mol-cuts-prices-in-tax-chief-s-city

QuoteFor an example of the government's micromanagement of Hungary's economy, consider the way the head of the tax authority says he got the country's biggest refiner to cut fuel prices at his local service station.

Andras Tallai, who runs the tax authority in his capacity as state secretary in Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government, boasted on Facebook over the weekend about talking Mol Nyrt. into cutting fuel prices in his constituency of Mezokovesd, a city of about 17,000 people 130 kilometers (81 miles) east of Budapest.

"I've attended to fuel prices in Mezokovesd and its vicinity based on a citizen's request," Tallai, who's also obtained lavish state and corporate subsidies for the local first-division soccer team, said in the Facebook post. "We negotiated with officials at Mol and, as a result, gasoline prices have fallen 11 forint and diesel by 5 forint compared with October 31."




While Orban has made energy price cuts a campaign theme before, the sudden focus on a single constituency shows the ruling party's willingness to intervene in the economy for political gain. Hungary is holding parliamentary elections next year, with Orban's Fidesz party in full campaign mode despite already leading by a wide margin in all opinion polls.

'Price Equalization'

The country was ranked 101st of 137 nations for institutional quality in the World Economic Forum's 2017 Global Competitiveness Report, lagging countries including Russia, Malawi and Uganda.

Tallai said the "equalization" of prices was set to continue in the region. After his intervention, the price of the most commonly used blend at the Mol station in Mezokovesd was still 2.6 percent higher than the national average of 365 forint ($1.36) per liter, with prices ranging from 346 forint to 416 forint across the country, according to the holtankoljak.hu price comparison website.

Mol, in which the government owns a quarter, declined to immediately comment on the rationale for the price change. The Mol price reduction in Mezokovesd compares with a national average increase of 16 forint for a liter (0.26 gallon) of unleaded petrol and 11 forint for diesel across all brands this month, according to the holtankoljak.hu.


Best bit: a TV news interview with one of the locals, a well dressed lady in her 60s. She is saying "I agree with it, because Tallai comrade..." then she realised what she said out of old reflexes, and stopped :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 07, 2017, 10:28:13 AM
Jobbik's leadership is holding an emergency meeting as the party has basically been made to default: the financial authority has issued  a roughly 1 million euros fine on them as well as reducing the subsidies they receive with the same amount, so effectively fining them for 2 million euros.

Jobbik has been desperately trying to climb out of the right wing, where Fidesz has sucked out all the air from them, to the centre largely abandoned by Fidesz.

Despite this being far from a full success, polls suggest they are the second most popular party in the country (still way, way, way behind Fidesz though, and even further from the biggest group the uncertain ones, who constitute 40% of voters).

Their drive to the middle has also been driven by Fidesz's ex-financier oligarch (see pictured post above).

I won't shed a tear for them, but the way they are being destroyed is very worrisome. The financial authority refused to accept the party's financial records they wanted to submit to prove their innocence. They just used whatever information they claimed they have, and effectively destroyed the party. Not any  better than any mock trials.

I wonder how long the EU will go along financing this regime.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on December 08, 2017, 07:05:00 PM
Hey Tamas, I just read that Hungary, together with the Czech Republic, will follow the US lead and move their embassies in Israel to Jerusalem as well. Has something been said back home about this?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on December 08, 2017, 07:11:25 PM
Deus Vult?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2017, 11:22:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on December 08, 2017, 07:05:00 PM
Hey Tamas, I just read that Hungary, together with the Czech Republic, will follow the US lead and move their embassies in Israel to Jerusalem as well. Has something been said back home about this?

Didn't see this, sorry. I haven't heard anything even remotely official. They might do it when they need to switch public discourse away from something, but otherwise even with national-level governmental anti-Muslim propaganda, going pro-Israel must be seen as risky business. Especially when the Evil Villain moving the millions of Muslims in yearly, is a Jew,
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2017, 11:25:25 AM
Jobbik is organising a protest for Friday, which has the pro-democratic forces in a bit of a dilemma.

At one hand, the reason for stripping Jobbik all of its money is laughable: the financial authority claims they bought advert places from this oligarch Simicska under the market price, which is verboten. But: 1. they haven't even looked at Jobbik's paperwork on that, they just declared it being so, nobody has seen any evidence. 2. All political parties have been cheating like that for the past 20 years at least. I guess they just couldn't be caught because evidence mattered.  Not since the authority is in the hands of an ex-politician of Fidesz.

On the other hand, protesting that a nazi party is being punished for doing illegal cooperation with Orban's former right-hand man and the most infamous oligarch until fairly recently, well, that sure leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 12, 2017, 11:26:40 AM
Still a better politics story than America.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2017, 11:29:40 AM
I think the answer is clear: everyone should protest, because the only reason they are going against Jobbik is that they are second in the polls, (well) behind Fidesz and there are going to be elections in April.

But there won't be a huge demonstration, and Russification will continue. Except of course that it will end up being more like Ukraine.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2017, 08:17:42 AM
The anti-Soros and anti-NGO (they receive Soros's money ZOMFG) propaganda has reached the stage where city mayors are accusing humanitarian NGOs of building a secret network of "Soros agents". For example in Debrecen, one of the biggest cities, the NGO providing shelter for the homeless has been warned by the mayor (a Fidesz bigwhig) to cease all operations, because the people are being taken care of by the city, and they are merely using their activity as a front to conspire against Hungary.

Same shit happened in another big city, Pecs where a foundation providing food and shelter was prevented from moving into its new office by the city council, right after they voted a decree against the "Soros Plan"

This is Nazi Germany level madness, and this system is ENTIRELY financed by EU money. It is a disgrace to the whole of Europe, and it will look very ugly when it will inevitably boil over to violence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 19, 2017, 08:30:01 AM
EU is evil and is destroying Hungary. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2017, 08:40:08 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 19, 2017, 08:30:01 AM
EU is evil and is destroying Hungary. :(

What I am saying is that the Hungarian government is systematically destroying everything related to basic European values. And all they are getting from the EU are massive handouts they can directly siphon to the cronies that keep them in power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on December 19, 2017, 06:44:39 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 19, 2017, 08:17:42 AM
The anti-Soros and anti-NGO (they receive Soros's money ZOMFG) propaganda has reached the stage where city mayors are accusing humanitarian NGOs of building a secret network of "Soros agents". For example in Debrecen, one of the biggest cities, the NGO providing shelter for the homeless has been warned by the mayor (a Fidesz bigwhig) to cease all operations, because the people are being taken care of by the city, and they are merely using their activity as a front to conspire against Hungary.

Same shit happened in another big city, Pecs where a foundation providing food and shelter was prevented from moving into its new office by the city council, right after they voted a decree against the "Soros Plan"

This is Nazi Germany level madness, and this system is ENTIRELY financed by EU money. It is a disgrace to the whole of Europe, and it will look very ugly when it will inevitably boil over to violence.

Sounds like the best argument for Brexit that I've heard.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 21, 2017, 01:48:23 AM
Christmas festivities in Hungary:

As last year as well, TEK the anti-terror SWAT unit drove out one of their cherished BTR-80s to guard the Christmas market against rampant migrant terrorism.

But it looks like they lost a battle in the war against the cunning enemy. Not even the cordon tape could prevent the terrorists from... spray painting the vehicle while the policemen were in a van on the opposite side of it:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--AeQ_-nVs--/76B73tPwB5b4FUBcs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 17, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
In order to ensure success in the fight against illegal immigration, the government has just announced a few actions that they are going to take:

1. NGOs that will be deemed to "support illegal immigration" (lately these have been organisations sheltering the homeless and supporting the poor, but taking contribution from a Soros foundation) will be required to report extra data about their organisation and activities, which will be made public, allegedly.

2. If an NGO receives money from abroad and its more than it receives from within the country, it will have to pay a 25% tax on the foreign part

3.  The government will introduce a new, well, condition that is pretty hard to translate. The very official sounding name would mirror-translate to something like "alien-policing [as in policing of non-citizens] distance keeping". This is because "illegal immigration can be supported not just by money, but by people as well".

The last one is probably needed because as part of the election campaign's demand of appearing like doing something, they want to ban George Soros from entering Hungary. Which is presently impossible as he is a Hungarian citizen.

But after this, they'll be able to! And consequently, anyone who they declare to be in support of illegal immigration can also be banned from entering.

The.Mind.Boggles.

And don't forget people, this is an EU country, receiving an incredible stream of EU funding, going straight to Orban's oligarchs!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 17, 2018, 10:03:30 AM
Oh Hungarians! Is there anything they won't do? :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 17, 2018, 10:27:46 AM
The other thread reminded me:

recently the government's spokeperson explained the government's issue with these pesky NGOs. To quote:

"They think that it is the civic society's job to influence and control politics. The government believes, that is up to elected officials".


Well, yes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 17, 2018, 10:29:57 AM
Are they aware how that statement sounds?  :wacko:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2018, 10:57:23 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 17, 2018, 10:03:30 AM
Oh Hungarians! Is there anything they won't do? :)

Raid Germany?

[spoiler]Not in the past of course.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 17, 2018, 11:10:18 AM
Why do we have shithole countries like Hungary in the EU and not Norway?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2018, 11:29:40 AM
Because Sweden let Norway away.

[spoiler]Blame Denmark too.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 17, 2018, 02:58:38 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
The.Mind.Boggles.

the mind boggles not: Orban is part of the EPP, Poland's PiS is not. It's pretty easy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 12, 2018, 08:40:17 AM
Hey Tamas, you might be interested in this:

Quote
Orbán allies could use EU as cash register, MEPs say
Hungarian PM's supporters are winning EU-funded contracts while facing little competition

A European parliamentary watchdog has called for tougher scrutiny of EU spending in Hungary, as concern grows among MEPs and transparency campaigners that a class of oligarchs with ties to the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, could use the EU "as a cash register".

Hungary is on course to receive €25bn (£22.2bn) from the EU in the seven years to 2021, making it one of the largest per-capita recipients of the bloc's economic development funds.

MEPs are increasingly worried that funds are going to Orbán's family, friends and supporters, who are winning EU-funded infrastructure contracts with little competition – a red flag for anti-corruption campaigners.

Ingeborg Grässle, a German centre-right MEP who leads the European parliament's budgetary control committee, said Hungary had "some specific problems which need to be tackled".

Following a recent visit to Hungary, Grässle and her committee found that 36% of tenders for public projects had only one bidder.

Poland and Croatia had an even higher proportion of single-bids for public money at 45%, which the MEPs considered unusually high, she said. "Rules seem to be respected, but at the same time they ... avoid competition," she said in emailed comments.

Grässle said the problems were not isolated to Hungary, and a new kind of "semi-legal" irregularity was emerging. "We see oligarchs in some member states becoming politicians and benefiting at the same time from EU and national money for their companies," she said.

She is urging the EU to step up control by using a recently agreed regulation to stop conflicts of interest. Without such action "we accept as legal a grab into the cash register by acting politicians or their friends", she said.

The Czech prime minister, Andrej Babiš, the second richest man in the country, came under renewed pressure last month after a leaked EU report concluded numerous laws had been broken to obtain EU subsidies for a hotel and conference centre he owns. Babiš denies any wrongdoing and has said the allegations are a plot by his opponents.

Following an investigation in Hungary, the EU's anti-fraud office, Olaf, said it had found serious irregularities related to street-lighting contracts awarded to a company that had been owned by Orbán's son-in-law, István Tiborcz. Olaf has called on the European commission to claw back more than €40m (£35.5m) of EU funds spent on lighting projects.

Tiborcz had limited business experience when his company, Elios Innovativ, won contracts to supply EU-funded street lighting for Hungarian towns. Some of the lamps Elios supplied were more than 50% more expensive than market prices, according to analysis by Direkt36, an investigative journalism website that is part of the Global Investigative Journalism Network. Tiborcz sold his stake in Elios shortly before the EU's anti-fraud office began investigating.

Elios did not respond to requests for comment, and Tiborcz is yet to respond to Olaf's allegations.

Olaf had already recommended that European institutions claw back €283m that Hungary has received to build a new metro line in Budapest, after finding evidence of "fraud and possibly corruption". The project was planned under previous governments and completed in 2014, shortly before Orbán won a second term. Olaf's inquiry touched on unnamed UK companies, according to its annual report.

"The European Union structural funds have an eminent role in the questionable enrichment of government cronies and business oligarchs," said Miklós Ligeti, the head of legal affairs at Transparency International Hungary. "We would expect the EU to be much more anxious about the dismantling of democratic checks."

Concern about the misspending of EU money is likely to ricochet into a tense debate about the bloc's future budget, set to fall by €13bn a year because of Brexit.

Frank Engel, a centre-right Luxembourg MEP, said Hungary should be obliged to join a newly created EU prosecution service if it wanted to continue to receive EU funds. Twenty EU countries agreed last year to create a European public prosecutor's office to investigate the misuse of EU funds, but Hungary was among those that declined to take part.

"Getting public contracts now in Hungary is a matter of friendship and not a matter of merit," Engel said. While "not technically materially illegal, where else in the European Union would you have a system where public contracts of significant size go to family members of the head of government?"he said. "I don't think that happens anywhere else."

The European commission said it had zero tolerance of the fraudulent use of EU funds. "Member states are primarily responsible for the sound management of EU funds, according to the shared management principle," it said.

A spokesperson for Hungary's international communications office responded to Olaf's investigation into Elios by noting that the anti-fraud body had investigated street-lighting contracts under the former Socialist government. "Similarly to the previous investigation, we also fully support this latest investigation."

Further questions were directed to the Hungarian prime minister's office, which said Hungary had an extensive system of controls for monitoring EU funds.

Orbán's office also said Grässle's figures were out of date. Citing data from Hungary's public procurement office, it said EU contracts with only one bidder had fallen to 26.3% of the total in 2017 – similar, it said, to other countries in the region.

Orbán insisted in December that the Hungarian economy could manage without EU funds. "Hungary has nothing to fear as it is not dependent on any outsiders' money," he said.

QuoteHow Hungarian PM's supporters profit from EU-backed projects
While Viktor Orbán has criticised EU, some of his friends and family have won EU-funded infrastructure contracts

The train to nowhere, some dazzlingly expensive street lights and the pipe-fitter turned business mogul who happens to be the prime minister's friend. One common thread links them all: Hungary's combative leader, Viktor Orbán, and his bête noire, the European Union.

Orbán has attacked the EU relentlessly since he took office in 2010, comparing it to the Soviet Union and launching a "Stop Brussels" campaign. At the same time, some of his family and supporters have become rich, partly due to winning EU-funded contracts to build Hungary's roads, railways, waterworks and other public infrastructure.

More than 80% of public investment in Hungary comes from the EU's cohesion funds, which are intended to help poorer regions and countries catch up.

"Mr Orbán has been bashing the EU for years; at the same time his inner circle is getting rich through EU funds," said András Pethő, a journalist who co-founded Direkt36, which investigates Hungary's new crony capitalism.

Orbán's son-in-law is one of the most prominent people to have gained from EU funds. István Tiborcz, who married Orbán's eldest daughter, Ráhel, in 2013, owned Elios Innovativ when it won contracts to supply Hungarian towns with EU-funded street lamps.

In some cases the lamps proved to be 56% more expensive than usual, although prices of LED bulbs were falling at the time, Direkt36 found. Last month the EU's anti-fraud office, Olaf, called on Brussels to recoup €40m after it found "serious irregularities" and a "conflict of interest" following a two-year investigation into street-lighting contracts that were signed when the company was owned by Tiborcz.

Olaf does not publish its reports or reveal who is named in them, but the Guardian understands that the irregularities relate to contracts signed in 2011-15, when Tiborcz was an owner of the company.

In 2016, Hungary's police closed an investigation into Elios after concluding no law had been broken.

In a separate case, about €2m in EU funds helped pay for a tourist train from Orbán's childhood village, Felcsút, to another hamlet three and a half miles away. Hundreds of people would need to travel every day for the project to break even, but most days the vintage carriages are nearly empty.

The handful of visitors taking the heritage train can visit a 4,000-seater football stadium in Felcsút, which could accommodate the entire village more than twice over. Orbán, a former five-a-side player, is a regular at the Pancho stadium, which is a stone's throw from his house.

The stadium was built by the construction company of the Felcsút mayor, Lőrinc Mészáros, the prime minister's friend and the eighth richest man in Hungary. A former gas fitter, Mészáros owns 121 companies that span construction, real estate, media, wine and farming. His companies and those owned by his family are some of the biggest beneficiaries of public procurement contracts in Hungary, according to the transparency website Átlátszó, which estimates that 83% of Mészáros family companies' earnings come from EU sources.

In 2017, Mészáros's wealth tripled to HF106bn (€327m), according to Forbes Hungary. Spokespeople for Mészáros did not respond to a request for comment. Once, when asked to explain his achievements, Mészáros answered: "God, luck and Viktor Orbán."

Some beneficiaries are harder to trace because sub-contractors do not appear in public databases. A company owned by the prime minister's father, Győző Orbán, was reported by Direkt36 to be supplying concrete and stone to two large EU-funded sewer projects and an EU-funded railway along Lake Balaton that is €54m over budget. Győző Orbán has not responded to the claims, while the companies involved have declined to comment, citing corporate confidentiality.

EU authorities are still waiting on Budapest to repay €283m that was misspent in building a new metro line in Budapest. Olaf, the anti-fraud office, has said it found "serious irregularities – fraud and possible corruption ... in all phases of the project", which was said to have cost €1.7bn.

The European commission declined to comment on whether the €283m recommended for recovery by Olaf had been returned, but an EU source said the EU was still awaiting the decision of Hungary's national prosecutor. "The EU demands ... that all EU funds for this project be paid back," the source said.

Planning and construction of the Budapest metro extension began under the last socialist government and was completed after Orbán came to power in 2010.

Miklós Ligeti, head of legal affairs at Transparency International Hungary, said that since 2010 Hungary had seen "the disruption and dismantling of the checks and balances system in the country. One of the disruptions is the public procurement authority. It should be an independent institution, but it is not, it is a captured institution."

He said Hungary was now in the grip of party state capture: "It is not influential lobbies or pressure groups capturing public power, it is more like a political clique made of certain politicians, influential people or oligarchs."

Worries about oligarchs becoming rich on Brussels largesse could undermine confidence in EU spending just as the bloc is embarking on tortuous negotiations to agree its next seven-year budget. "It is vital that everyone from the incoming German finance minister to the finance minister of Greece can explain to the public that their money is delivering public goods rather than serving private interests," said Heather Grabbe, a former EU official who now leads the Open Society European Policy Institute.

Some insiders worry that EU leaders are reluctant to challenge Orbán, who sits in the same centre-right political group – the European People's party – as the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker.

The EPP stance was "one of the major issues", said one senior figure. "If we made it clear to them that they no longer belonged to the family, their stance would be altered."

A spokesperson at the Hungarian prime minister's office rejected suggestions of any conflict of interest in spending public money, stating that the government had adopted relevant EU legislation and domestic legislation with "more stringent rules regarding conflicts of interest than the directives".

Olaf does not publish its investigations, citing the protection of "legitimate rights of the persons concerned" and personal data, as well as ensuring confidentiality of investigations and judicial follow-up.

"The question that always comes to mind is what exactly is the EU doing about this," Sáling said. "Such a big amount of money is thrown out the window, how is it possible there is not more spectacular reaction?"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: ulmont on February 12, 2018, 10:07:19 AM
Hey, the NYT has realized that Orban could now be a cautionary tale:

Quote"Orban has pioneered a new model of single-party rule that has spread through Eastern Europe, which is unlikely to spread west because civil society, independent institutions and the rule of law is too strong in Western Europe," said Mr. Ignatieff, who is also a human rights scholar and a former leader of the Liberal Party in Canada. He added, however, that it "could break the E.U. apart if this conflict between liberal democracy in the West and single-party states in the East can't be resolved."

Zoltan Kovacs, the Hungarian government spokesman, and the only current official who agreed to speak on the record for this article, defended Mr. Orban's actions as a determined effort "to get rid of the remnants of communism that are still with us, not only in terms of institutions but in terms of mentality."
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/10/world/europe/hungary-orban-democracy-far-right.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2018, 10:09:53 AM
QuoteZoltan Kovacs, the Hungarian government spokesman, and the only current official who agreed to speak on the record for this article, defended Mr. Orban's actions as a determined effort "to get rid of the remnants of communism that are still with us, not only in terms of institutions but in terms of mentality."

:lol:

That mentality is what they thrive on. That, and a thousand years of feudalistic institutions, just like in Russia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 12, 2018, 10:52:18 AM
Only in the sense that taking crack helps rid you of your crack addiction.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2018, 01:08:28 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/26/hungary-surprise-defeat-for-viktor-orban-in-bellwether-by-election


This is a big defeat. The city only voted Fidesz or their present lackies the Christian Democrats since around 1998. Also, more importantly, it was considered to be the personal fiefdom of one of Orban's main lieutenant, Janos Lazar (the only truly very talented sociopath in that gang of sociopaths).

Of course, the same kind of all-party cooperation is impossible to deliver on a national scale, but I think it can have an impact by showing that showing up and voting can make a difference. Fidesz got more votes than the last time they won, but it wasn't enough because this time people opposing them bothered to show up.

They must be shitting their pants, as their main lapdog journalist just announced a "Peace March" for 15th of March, something they used to do regularly when they had really strong popular support, but shied away from since their demographics sunk to the most uneducated rural folk.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on February 26, 2018, 01:17:19 PM
If only some freedom lovers could act on 15th of March. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 01, 2018, 05:57:17 AM
This was interesting. For a couple of days several "journalists" and other forefront people of the government talked about the need to share positive messages instead of Soros-ing, in light of this big mayoral defeat.

Then about yesterday morning every such voice silenced and everyone returned blaming Soros for everything, like the well-oiled Goebelsian machine they are.

Also, they have a new enemy now to warn against on giant posters: The UN!

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--OqbLRNiL--/c_limit,h_397,w_760/77wnfqHhoNbtJMA8s.jpeg)

It says: "the UN wants as to continuously accept migrants. HUNGARY DECIDES. NOT THE UN!"

The casus belli for this is some kind of meaningless UN declaration on migration that they want to vote on, and Hungary quickly grabbed the opportunity to make an ass out of themselves and start a fight.

I do wonder where they go next.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 05:00:21 AM
https://apnews.com/6e2d360ea32d410e8b24e9ad33d40586/Hungarian-minister-says-migrants-make-Vienna-dirtier,-poorer

QuoteBUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — In a story March 7 about a Hungarian official in Austria, The Associated Press erroneously translated a word in a quote from Janos Lazar, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban's chief of staff. The translation should have been "dirt, filth," not "hospices."

It only gets better after that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 09:16:37 AM
That article could have been written 150 years ago. 'Slavs and Jews make Vienna dirtier and filthier.'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2018, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 05:00:21 AM
https://apnews.com/6e2d360ea32d410e8b24e9ad33d40586/Hungarian-minister-says-migrants-make-Vienna-dirtier,-poorer

QuoteBUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — In a story March 7 about a Hungarian official in Austria, The Associated Press erroneously translated a word in a quote from Janos Lazar, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban's chief of staff. The translation should have been "dirt, filth," not "hospices."

It only gets better after that.

Was he traumatised by the 10. Bezirk/District? The U6 a.k.a Balkan Express?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2018, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 05:00:21 AM
https://apnews.com/6e2d360ea32d410e8b24e9ad33d40586/Hungarian-minister-says-migrants-make-Vienna-dirtier,-poorer

QuoteBUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — In a story March 7 about a Hungarian official in Austria, The Associated Press erroneously translated a word in a quote from Janos Lazar, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban's chief of staff. The translation should have been "dirt, filth," not "hospices."

It only gets better after that.

Was he traumatised by the 10. Bezirk/District? The U6 a.k.a Balkan Express?

He was traumatised by the election loss of his personal fiefdom two weeks ago. I guess he felt he must make amends and help in the campaign.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2018, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 05:00:21 AM
https://apnews.com/6e2d360ea32d410e8b24e9ad33d40586/Hungarian-minister-says-migrants-make-Vienna-dirtier,-poorer

QuoteBUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — In a story March 7 about a Hungarian official in Austria, The Associated Press erroneously translated a word in a quote from Janos Lazar, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban's chief of staff. The translation should have been "dirt, filth," not "hospices."

It only gets better after that.

Was he traumatised by the 10. Bezirk/District? The U6 a.k.a Balkan Express?

He was traumatised by the election loss of his personal fiefdom two weeks ago. I guess he felt he must make amends and help in the campaign.

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 01:04:52 PM
In accordance with their "we absolutely, positively do not break for anyone" style, Fidesz decided to stand behind their guy above with the "if we lose Budapest will be like Vienna" declaration, stating that if they do not win the election, Budapest will become just like "Rome, Berlin, Vienna, Stockholm, London".

Which are of course, in their story, under practical siege of third world coloured people, suffocating in an orgy of crime, filth, and Islam.

Trivia: AFAIK the Vienna guy's daughter goes to a university in London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
Rome? 10,000 Muslims in a city of almost 3 million? How can we tolerate this new Medina right in the middle of Europe?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2018, 01:54:43 PM
Yeah, I can't believe they forgot Marseille or even Paris.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 07, 2018, 01:55:56 PM
Stockholm is fine, as long as you stay in the green zone. The white zone is for loading and unloading only.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2018, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
Rome? 10,000 Muslims in a city of almost 3 million? How can we tolerate this new Medina right in the middle of Europe?

10,000 is too low of a figure for Rome. I'd say that's a number for Lisbon perhaps even too low for the latter.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 07, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
Rome? 10,000 Muslims in a city of almost 3 million? How can we tolerate this new Medina right in the middle of Europe?

once upon a time there only a few muslims in medina (which wasn't called medina then)... look how that turned out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 07, 2018, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 07, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
Rome? 10,000 Muslims in a city of almost 3 million? How can we tolerate this new Medina right in the middle of Europe?

once upon a time there only a few muslims in medina (which wasn't called medina then)... look how that turned out.

Funky and cold?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 07, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
Rome? 10,000 Muslims in a city of almost 3 million? How can we tolerate this new Medina right in the middle of Europe?

once upon a time there only a few muslims in medina (which wasn't called medina then)... look how that turned out.

And there may be a time when there is a large Muslim minority in Rome. But that day is not yet today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 07, 2018, 04:24:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 07, 2018, 02:37:08 PM
Funky and cold?

^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 08, 2018, 12:38:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 07, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
Rome? 10,000 Muslims in a city of almost 3 million? How can we tolerate this new Medina right in the middle of Europe?

once upon a time there only a few muslims in medina (which wasn't called medina then)... look how that turned out.

And there may be a time when there is a large Muslim minority in Rome. But that day is not yet today.

ideally that day never comes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 08, 2018, 01:23:20 PM
Granted I am not hanging around Europe much these days but I doubt the ability of a conservative traditional type religion really taking over modern Euroland. Maybe they will just switch from being non-practicing Catholics to non-practicing Muslims.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 08, 2018, 01:31:22 PM
Ivan is just out shilling his bigoted agenda. Nothing to concerns ourselves with, V.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2018, 03:57:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 08, 2018, 01:31:22 PM
Ivan is just out shilling his bigoted agenda. Nothing to concerns ourselves with, V.

yawn, take your virtue-signalling to Mecca.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2018, 04:03:03 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 08, 2018, 01:23:20 PM
Granted I am not hanging around Europe much these days but I doubt the ability of a conservative traditional type religion really taking over modern Euroland. Maybe they will just switch from being non-practicing Catholics to non-practicing Muslims.

that would be ideal, but it's better to not get into a situation where we need to hope for that. History though seems to indicate otherwise: islam doesn't mellow, it usurps the places where it is allowed to exist
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 09, 2018, 05:58:39 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2018, 03:57:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 08, 2018, 01:31:22 PM
Ivan is just out shilling his bigoted agenda. Nothing to concerns ourselves with, V.

yawn, take your virtue-signalling to Mecca.

What I said was entirely accurate.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 09, 2018, 07:36:52 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 07, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
And there may be a time when there is a large Muslim minority in Rome. But that day is not yet today.

Greatest European mosque (excluding Moscow) is in Rome though so a large muslim minority is already there Valmy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Rome)

QuoteThe Mosque of Rome (Italian: Moschea di Roma), situated in Parioli, is the largest mosque outside the Islamic world, Russia and India.[1] It has an area of 30,000 m2 (320,000 sq ft) and can accommodate more than 12,000 people. The building is located in the Acqua Acetosa area, at the foot of the Monti Parioli, north of the city. Being the Western world's biggest mosque,[2] it is the seat of the Italian Islamic Cultural Centre (Italian: Centro Culturale Islamico d'Italia).

Capacity of 12,000 so more than the 10,000 you mentioned earlier. In fact, the Latium has 112,800 muslims (2016 figures found on the Italian wiki about islam in Italy), most of them I suppose in the Greater Rome area.
Incidentally, there are more muslims in Lombardy. I guess this explains why the Lega reinvented itself as an anti-immigration party instead of a regionalist party i.e anti-Mezzogiorno and anti-Roma Ladra.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 11:38:00 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2018, 04:03:03 AM
islam doesn't mellow, it usurps the places where it is allowed to exist

I don't see much evidence of usurpation in Canada and yet that religion is freely and opening practiced here.   Perhaps there is something wrong with your theory.   
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 11:56:54 AM
I will say that the old world has different dynamics than over here. Ethnic minorities have the tendency to entrench and hang around for centuries in ways they just don't over in the US and Canada.

But, all the same, I think Islam is going through a crisis. I doubt it will emerge from all this without having to evolve with the modern world somehow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 09, 2018, 07:36:52 AM
Capacity of 12,000 so more than the 10,000 you mentioned earlier. In fact, the Latium has 112,800 muslims (2016 figures found on the Italian wiki about islam in Italy), most of them I suppose in the Greater Rome area.
Incidentally, there are more muslims in Lombardy. I guess this explains why the Lega reinvented itself as an anti-immigration party instead of a regionalist party i.e anti-Mezzogiorno and anti-Roma Ladra.

Rome itself has a population of almost three million with a metro area population of much more. Ethnic Italians make up over 90% of that total. I got my number because non-Euros are made up of Chinese and Filipinos and Bangladeshis and 12,000 was the population of the Bangladeshis but I forgot that there are Euro-Muslims like Albanians which are probably well represented.

So we are talking about a tiny percentage.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 11:56:54 AM
But, all the same, I think Islam is going through a crisis. I doubt it will emerge from all this without having to evolve with the modern world somehow.

If you ever come to Vancouver, take a stroll through West and North Vancouver.  You will see plenty of Muslims who are doing very well living in the modern world.   
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
It is ironic this thread is turning into a debate on muslim immigration.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 11:56:54 AM
But, all the same, I think Islam is going through a crisis. I doubt it will emerge from all this without having to evolve with the modern world somehow.

If you ever come to Vancouver, take a stroll through West and North Vancouver.  You will see plenty of Muslims who are doing very well living in the modern world.   

Same in Austin. I didn't say 'Muslims'.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 11:56:54 AM
But, all the same, I think Islam is going through a crisis. I doubt it will emerge from all this without having to evolve with the modern world somehow.

If you ever come to Vancouver, take a stroll through West and North Vancouver.  You will see plenty of Muslims who are doing very well living in the modern world.   

Same in Austin. I didn't say 'Muslims'.

Ok, what point are you trying to make about "Islam" that is different from how Muslims have, to use your words "evolved with the modern world"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 09, 2018, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2018, 03:57:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 08, 2018, 01:31:22 PM
Ivan is just out shilling his bigoted agenda. Nothing to concerns ourselves with, V.

yawn, take your virtue-signalling to Mecca.

You're the one who started with the virtue-signalling in this case.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Ok, what point are you trying to make about "Islam" that is different from how Muslims have, to use your words "evolved with the modern world"?

Those seem very distinct to me. I mean people can reconcile all sorts of contradictory things. I mean there are plenty of gay Mormons but that doesn't mean that Mormonism might have to address that issue at some point. But I would certainly never say that Mormons need to address their issues with LBTQ stuff because many of them already have because just because you are part of a religious or cultural group doesn't mean it defines you on everything.

But I recall a conversation we had a long time ago where I mused that I thought the modern world was evolving towards a more interconnected global culture and you also vehemently disagreed. We may just disagree on this point but I think I have been rather consistent that traditional conservative things like Islam will eventually have to change or collapse under their own contradictions. It could just be that it becomes a series of cultural traditions and values the way Catholicism is for many French, Italian, and Spanish people...and indeed probably already is for many people who identify as Muslims. I know significant numbers of French 'Muslims' are not religious at all, which would make them perfect Frenchmen.

But hey maybe all is well in the house of Islam. It doesn't seem like it is, but ultimately I don't live inside that house I am just in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 09, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
It is ironic this thread is turning into a debate on muslim immigration.

Is it? It seems rather apropos :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 09, 2018, 02:29:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 11:56:54 AM
I will say that the old world has different dynamics than over here. Ethnic minorities have the tendency to entrench and hang around for centuries in ways they just don't over in the US and Canada.

Really depends on what ethnic minorities and namely their attitude. Of course, the move away from assimilation to multiculturalism in all but name has not been exactly helpful.
When or If the US and Canada have muslim percentages comparable to Western Europe, then we can compare.

Quote
But, all the same, I think Islam is going through a crisis. I doubt it will emerge from all this without having to evolve with the modern world somehow.

Islam has been in a crisis for a long time now...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 02:45:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 01:24:12 PM
Those seem very distinct to me. I mean people can reconcile all sorts of contradictory things. I mean there are plenty of gay Mormons but that doesn't mean that Mormonism might have to address that issue at some point. But I would certainly never say that Mormons need to address their issues with LBTQ stuff because many of them already have because just because you are part of a religious or cultural group doesn't mean it defines you on everything.

I am not sure an analogy with a very small minority within a religious group works.  The vast majority of Muslims in North America live in the modern world (again your phrase).

QuoteBut I recall a conversation we had a long time ago where I mused that I thought the modern world was evolving towards a more interconnected global culture and you also vehemently disagreed. We may just disagree on this point but I think I have been rather consistent that traditional conservative things like Islam will eventually have to change or collapse under their own contradictions.

Again, I am not sure what you mean when you say Islam has to change.  There is clearly not one form of Islamic belief.  And for that matter, Christianity has lasted a long time despite its own contradictions, likely because there are many Christianities.  Choose one to suite your purposes just as Muslims choose what form of Islamic belief appeals to them most.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 09, 2018, 02:53:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 07, 2018, 01:04:52 PM
In accordance with their "we absolutely, positively do not break for anyone" style, Fidesz decided to stand behind their guy above with the "if we lose Budapest will be like Vienna" declaration, stating that if they do not win the election, Budapest will become just like "Rome, Berlin, Vienna, Stockholm, London".

Which are of course, in their story, under practical siege of third world coloured people, suffocating in an orgy of crime, filth, and Islam.

Trivia: AFAIK the Vienna guy's daughter goes to a university in London.


Man, Fahdiz never should have left Languish.  How did he get put in charge of Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on March 09, 2018, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 09, 2018, 02:53:49 PM

Man, Fahdiz never should have left Languish.  How did he get put in charge of Hungary?

He was Catholic?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 09, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
From what I can tell Islam is doing just fine. Where's the crisis?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 08:09:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 02:45:55 PM
I am not sure an analogy with a very small minority within a religious group works.  The vast majority of Muslims in North America live in the modern world (again your phrase).

Yes that was my phrase. Are you saying Mormons live in the ancient world? I am not sure how I am failing to get my point across here. And I never said that Muslims of any number did or did not live in the modern world.

QuoteAgain, I am not sure what you mean when you say Islam has to change.  There is clearly not one form of Islamic belief.

True. I am talking about the traditional orthodox conservative version of Islam practiced and understood by the majority of Muslims. I keep using those words for a reason.

QuoteAnd for that matter, Christianity has lasted a long time despite its own contradictions, likely because there are many Christianities.

There are an insane number of Christianities but that has not saved Christianity from struggling with the issues of modernity. I mean surely you can see that with every generation the percentage of believers and practitioners wanes.

QuoteChoose one to suite your purposes just as Muslims choose what form of Islamic belief appeals to them most.

That is a very progressive and post-modern view of the matter. I don't think that is very compatible with traditional religious faith.

In any case my purpose was trying to re-assure CI that in the long run there is nothing for him to worry about.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 08:10:00 PM
Quote from: citizen k on March 09, 2018, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 09, 2018, 02:53:49 PM

Man, Fahdiz never should have left Languish.  How did he get put in charge of Hungary?

He was Catholic?

Yes, but not for very long. He had the fire of a recent convert when he first came here IIRC.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 12, 2018, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2018, 08:09:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 09, 2018, 02:45:55 PM
I am not sure an analogy with a very small minority within a religious group works.  The vast majority of Muslims in North America live in the modern world (again your phrase).

Yes that was my phrase. Are you saying Mormons live in the ancient world?

I have no idea how you got there. 


QuoteTrue. I am talking about the traditional orthodox conservative version of Islam practiced and understood by the majority of Muslims. I keep using those words for a reason.

Ok,  it would have been helpful if you had used those words in the post I responded to.  You did not qualify your comments in the post I responded to.  You simply stated "
But, all the same, I think Islam is going through a crisis. I doubt it will emerge from all this without having to evolve with the modern world somehow."

But even if you had, what do you mean by a "traditional orthodox conservative version of Islam" which is practiced by a majority of Muslims?  What version is that and why do you think the majority of Muslims practice whatever it is you have identified as their "version".

QuoteThere are an insane number of Christianities but that has not saved Christianity from struggling with the issues of modernity. I mean surely you can see that with every generation the percentage of believers and practitioners wanes.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  Christianity seems to be pretty strong and particularly in the US where politics are deeply influenced by a conservative version of Christianity.


QuoteThat is a very progressive and post-modern view of the matter. I don't think that is very compatible with traditional religious faith.

And yet we have, as you say, an "insane number of Christianities" even within the conservative traditional versions of that religion.  Why do you think there are not variations within Islam.   Also, if those divisions do not exist, then why all the violence within Islam?

QuoteIn any case my purpose was trying to re-assure CI that in the long run there is nothing for him to worry about.

Not sure that is accomplished by oversimplifying the religious divisions within Islam.


Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2018, 09:05:50 AM
Today is a big national holiday in Hungary and Fidesz organised a giant "peace march" to show force and unity after the surprise humiliation at the recent mayoral election.

Orban is having the usual boring "we are needed to stop Soros and the organisation behind him, tens of millions of Africans are going to march toward Europe in the next decade, Western Europe is already lost" speech, but there are two worryingly honest (although hardly surprising) lines:

-"this election isn't just for 4 years"
-"we are peaceful, but after the elections we will take revenge [well compensation might be a better word]. Moral, political, legal one."

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 15, 2018, 09:55:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2018, 09:05:50 AM
-"this election isn't just for 4 years"
-"we are peaceful, but after the elections we will take revenge [well compensation might be a better word]. Moral, political, legal one."

Holy shit  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2018, 11:44:35 AM
Yeah and just before it he said, pretty much literally, that every non-Fidesz voter is a Soros agent.

All the argument they have remaining for themselves is anti-migration (although it is worth noting that no political party wants to let migrants in, or even disassemble the fence on the border), and now these threats.

It has me genuinely worried what would happen if the lose the election on 8th of April, or what will happen a few years later. Luckily, I think they'll just doctor the numbers if it turns out they are losing the votes on election day. Because there's no way they'll give over power peacefully. It is simply not possible. Leaving Orban's threats and rhetoric above, the moment the chief attorney would be replaced with a non-Fidesz member, they would all go to jail.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on March 15, 2018, 11:52:33 AM
You may have explained it already, but if so please indulge me:

What's with the fixation on George Soros?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2018, 12:01:12 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 15, 2018, 11:52:33 AM
You may have explained it already, but if so please indulge me:

What's with the fixation on George Soros?

It is just a personal theory, but I think initially they just rode on the waves of the then-popular #MAGA-related discussion of blaming Soros for everything, Black Lives Matter "riots" in particular. Then the #MAGA crowd moved on, but an old rich Hungarian Jew living in America was just too convenient a villain to give up in Hungary.

I am pretty sure they'll drop him after the election though. He is growing very stale. What remains is the tyrant EU (sending ungodly billions straight to the oligarch's purses, oh teh tyranny), and nowadays they try to villain-ise the UN, but with little success.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 15, 2018, 12:15:38 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2018, 12:01:12 PM
and nowadays they try to villain-ise the UN, but with little success.

The UN's evil plan of sending sternly worded letters strikes terror into the hearts of good Hungarians everywhere.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on March 15, 2018, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 15, 2018, 11:52:33 AM
You may have explained it already, but if so please indulge me:

What's with the fixation on George Soros?

While there is some kernel of truth in the complaints (he does donate billions of dollars to leftist political causes), it's mostly a cheap way to blame "the Jews" for everything without sounding overtly anti-semitic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 15, 2018, 01:55:13 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2018, 01:32:35 PM
While there is some kernel of truth in the complaints (he does donate billions of dollars to leftist political causes)

Sort of. It is not like he is funding Maoist militias or something.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on March 15, 2018, 01:56:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2018, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 15, 2018, 11:52:33 AM
You may have explained it already, but if so please indulge me:

What's with the fixation on George Soros?

While there is some kernel of truth in the complaints (he does donate billions of dollars to leftist political causes), it's mostly a cheap way to blame "the Jews" for everything without sounding overtly anti-semitic.

So, just like the people in the US that obsess over him. Lame.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on March 15, 2018, 03:01:15 PM
From Twitter, but from a verified writer for The Guardian, from a recent speech:

QuoteOrban: "We are fighting an enemy that is different from us. Not open, but hiding; not straightforward but crafty; not honest but base; does not believe in working but speculates with money; does not have its own homeland but feels it owns the whole world." #dogwhistle

Gee, what enemy could he be talking about... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 15, 2018, 03:49:35 PM
Damn Jehova's Witnesses!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 15, 2018, 05:33:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 15, 2018, 11:52:33 AM
You may have explained it already, but if so please indulge me:

What's with the fixation on George Soros?

He has funded a lot of human rights/civic freedom type organizations in the former Warsaw Pact.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2018, 04:19:26 AM
 :lol: sabotage?

On Orban's official Facebook page his men posted a video about him speaking of the infamous border fence. And when he says "I have seen with my own eyes: this is a serious construction that could be the envy of any country in the world" they show him climbing up on a makeshift wooden guard-tower  :lol:

Here's that part: https://streamable.com/ixa36
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 19, 2018, 08:28:53 AM
One thing the hopeful oppositions of the regime mention sometime as a moral boost:

the date of the election (8th of April) looks like this written in the Hungarian date format:

18.4.8

:ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on March 19, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 19, 2018, 12:22:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 19, 2018, 08:28:53 AM
One thing the hopeful oppositions of the regime mention sometime as a moral boost:

the date of the election (8th of April) looks like this written in the Hungarian date format:

18.4.8

:ph34r:

:D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 19, 2018, 01:58:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 19, 2018, 08:28:53 AM
One thing the hopeful oppositions of the regime mention sometime as a moral boost:

the date of the election (8th of April) looks like this written in the Hungarian date format:

18.4.8

:ph34r:

Good thing the date isn't 18.4.9 or the Russians would invade.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 19, 2018, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2018, 01:58:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 19, 2018, 08:28:53 AM
One thing the hopeful oppositions of the regime mention sometime as a moral boost:

the date of the election (8th of April) looks like this written in the Hungarian date format:

18.4.8

:ph34r:

Good thing the date isn't 18.4.9 or the Russians would invade.

wait until they're done with the Ukraine. one step at a time
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2018, 07:32:51 AM
Today's out-of-thin-air fearmongering from Orban came from his Facebook video report-in from Brussels. Casually mentioning that "it is known" since "they have been busted" that "2000 Soros mercenaries" are in Hungary "working against Hungary".

I am telling you, I honestly believe he'd go full Erdogan after the elections if Hungary wasn't member of the EU. He might still try to do so in some limited fashion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
I envy people who live in countries that still have the standing to mock other countries' dumb shit.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2018, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
I envy people who live in countries that still have the standing to mock other countries' dumb shit.  :(

I have no idea how that feels. I lived in Hungary, then moved to the UK.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on March 22, 2018, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 22, 2018, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
I envy people who live in countries that still have the standing to mock other countries' dumb shit.  :(

I have no idea how that feels. I lived in Hungary, then moved to the UK.

And you guys wondered why Canadians exude a pervasive sense of smugness.  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2018, 04:31:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2018, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 22, 2018, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
I envy people who live in countries that still have the standing to mock other countries' dumb shit.  :(

I have no idea how that feels. I lived in Hungary, then moved to the UK.

And you guys wondered why Canadians exude a pervasive sense of smugness.  :cool:

Keeps them from freezing to death?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2018, 11:59:49 AM
So did he visit a kindergarten in a kevlar or what?


(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0d813894a529a2cdf15431ef55d40e4cac7319ce334ef6f8c9d867b2ce3a1c7a.jpg)




BTW there has been a Fidesz zerg rush on kindergartens lately. I think they don't dare visiting any older age groups.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 23, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
What cute little Magyars :wub:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2018, 07:20:12 AM
Allegedly, the FBI has had a Hungarian citizen in protective custody/witness protection (I am not convinced the Hungarian journos translated it correctly) for a while now, who told them about his part in 3-4 billion euros moved from Hungary into a number of bank account in Asia and the Arab world. He said this is from the "constitutional cost" of the various EU money spent in the country (i.e. stolen by members of the government as embezzlement and other stuff).

Also allegedly, the FBI has warned the Hungarian authorities about this fact, but they replied that there's no indication of criminal activity so they are not interested in talking to the guy (shocking!).

This seems like a wild story but the leak is coming from the press of the former BFF oligarch of Orban whom I showed and referenced here in the past. There has been several reveals the last couple of weeks, many people think he has started releasing evidence and information he has on the bunch (he has to be careful as he was the primary money guy of the party for decades, so if something got stolen, he probably got a share). For example, a news story that seems to died quickly was evidence that a state secretary (these are lower ranked than ministers in Hungary, there's about 50 of them I think) has an offshore account in the Americas with a 4-5 million pounds worth of money on it, which is an enormous amount of money. And he is just a dime a dozen government servant.


On the original story's 3-4 billion value. It is weirdly coinciding with what initially seemed like the most successful Nigerian con ever, which contained the same amount of money: somebody (the protagonist lady's husband, shortly before his suicide) leaked a contract where one of Fidesz's bigwhig, called Kosa, signed with some random housewife in a remote village, agreeing to handle the investment of the housewife-s 3-4 billion euros into government bonds. There are other papers as well like him asking for 2 million pounds from this wealth, to be given to his mother.

The story is that this housewife claimed that she has this massive inheritance pending in Germany and she was looking for help (money) to get it. It looks like Kosa heard about it and jumped on it. But... he kept signing different contracts with this lady for over 2 years, why? Either he is the stupidest SOB ever seen in a suit, or the housewife in fact was a front for holding a pile of stolen money.

These people are running a fucking organised crime ring.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2018, 07:22:38 AM
And since I am listing a small portion of their thievery.

Orban's right-hand man, Janos Lazar has had trouble hiding his wealth as well.

Look at this villa:
(https://zoom.hu/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Kepernyofoto-2018-02-15-13.26.30-e1518697687897.png)

This is not owned by him, obviously. But, it is owned by one of his long time business partners, and it is ENTIRELY surrounded by land owned by Lazar's different close family members.

Just showing in case you're wondering where your EU money is being spent.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 26, 2018, 02:30:16 PM
Gypsy McMansion with Cheese
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 26, 2018, 02:42:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 26, 2018, 02:30:16 PM
Gypsy McMansion with Cheese

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on March 26, 2018, 08:27:00 PM
Where are the beet fields of the manor?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2018, 07:28:06 AM
https://444.hu/2018/03/28/a-suspected-international-criminal-and-the-syrian-dictators-money-man-also-bought-hungarian-residency-bonds
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on March 29, 2018, 08:10:32 AM
Re: the villa. Where's the pool?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2018, 02:11:01 AM
Orban today in his weekly radio "interview" again mentioned the "2000 Soros-mercenaries" he mentioned reporting in from Brussels.

He now said that they (i.e. the government) "know from the officers of the Soros army, who these 2000 people are. We know exactly who they are, and we are monitoring them".

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2018, 08:37:52 AM
There's also a minor row with Nigeria's embassy in Hungary, because some mid-level Fidesz guy claimed, on some local election forum in some God-forsaken town he thought nobody would notice, that 80% of Nigeria's population has AIDS.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 30, 2018, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2018, 02:11:01 AM
Orban today in his weekly radio "interview" again mentioned the "2000 Soros-mercenaries" he mentioned reporting in from Brussels.

He now said that they (i.e. the government) "know from the officers of the Soros army, who these 2000 people are. We know exactly who they are, and we are monitoring them".

:huh:

The Hungarians are being informed by Soros' officers? THEY MUST BE IN ON IT
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 08, 2018, 04:41:38 PM
There was a lot of hope Fidesz could be at the very least reined in by a close victory in today's national election, maybe even defeated. During the day, it quickly became obvious that there'd be a high turnout that analysts always believed would spell trouble for Fidesz as they thought they can only speak to their core supporters and nobody else.

Well, the results are finally in. It is an absolute Fidesz triumph. With a small miracle happening with the final counts, a 2/3rd majority might be narrowly avoided, but it seems unlikely at the moment.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 08, 2018, 06:59:40 PM
Yeah, it looks like a blowout. And with a high turnout.

I still don't get this trend of wealthy, free and safe (in the great scheme of things) western societies voting completely cuntish/idiotic stuff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2018, 08:15:09 PM
Just learned from the NYT that Orban attended Oxford on a Soros scholarship.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 09, 2018, 01:22:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2018, 08:15:09 PM
Just learned from the NYT that Orban attended Oxford on a Soros scholarship.

So Soros IS evil. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 09, 2018, 11:35:40 AM
Not that it changes everything but it is worth noting that about a 100 thousand more people voted on somebody other than Fidesz, than on Fidesz. Of course, those votes are divided between half a dozen parties, so Fidesz has a 2/3rd majority in Parliament, because, well, reasons.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2018, 05:36:25 AM
Simicska, Orban's high school friend oligarch who fell from grace (mentioned him here a few times) and started sponsoring the opposition (Jobbik) is closing down his main newspaper tomorrow, as well as his radio station due to financial losses. I guess when your entire business model is built on receiving insane advertising money from public companies, you can't last long when those feeding tubes are cut.

His secondary newspaper has been told to look for a new investor or face closure, while his TV station is laying some people off, with employees expecting a closure once the station's service contracts run out next year.

Too bad about the TV station. It used to be Orban's biggest worshipper but after the breakup it switched into a quite nice news and politics oriented channel.

The only politics-focused TV channel that used to be with the opposition (ATV) has been steadily ditching true political shows after their owner (a TV evangelist) has sworn fealty to Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2018, 05:41:35 AM
Also there are rumblings over cheating in the elections. For sure, there are several weird cases and happenings, but the reality is that they have scored a too overwhelming victory for it to be a full-blown cheat.

I mean, apart from the whole election system of course. Like how the law uses the list-votes cast on parties that didn't make it past the entry barrier, to strengthen the overall victor of the election.




Oh and needless to say, while migrants fearmongering news dominated all pro-government media (this means media owned by oligarchs raised by Orban, plus state TV) up until Sunday evening, all migrant news have DISAPPEARED from all of them overnight. I guess the campaign is over.





But this is all academic whining at this stage. The country is fucked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 10, 2018, 06:12:02 AM
Did you (and others like you) get to vote in this election?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2018, 07:39:15 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 10, 2018, 06:12:02 AM
Did you (and others like you) get to vote in this election?

I didn't but there was a way: register in advance and come from everywhere in the UK to the consulate in London. Lots of people queued for hours upon hours. It did exactly as much good as I expected it would.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2018, 09:32:00 AM
Welll...

There has been a lot of reports of oddities in voting districts, but I dismissed most of those as  minor things, or local overenthusiastic Party members doing minor cheats.

But it really is piling up. Mainly this: it would be quite easy to confirm the reported anomalies are just coincidences, if one could use the detailed features of the election database online, to compare stuff.
Unfortunately, there was a "server error" during the late hours of the voting day on Sunday, and the full system remains offline, only offering basic data, until "at least the weekend".
Meanwhile, the Socialists wanted to use their delegate in the main election authority to get hold of the copies of the paper-based logs of the problematic districts, but again, luck is against them: the scans of those will also not be available until the end of the week.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2018, 11:37:08 AM
John Oliver did a fun bit on all the easy money floating around with the election.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2018, 06:37:07 AM
Remember Orban's declaration from a few weeks back that I wrote about? The one on knowing exactly who the 2000 "Soros mercenaries" are in Hungary?

One of the rabidly pro-Fidesz newspapers today went really enthusiastic and made a list of people they assume to be on it. Opposition figures, journalists, NGO leaders, of course.

Near the end of the article they do explain though that the list is probably not complete of course since it is hard to see sometimes who you are really working for and some people may not be able what goals and master they truly serve.

BTW this newspaper in question is half owned by a politician in an opposition party, the greens (LMP). He happens to be the son of one of the government's ideologues, the lady who thought it was a great idea to invite Marty's idol whatshisname Greek guy to an event last year.
Just so you know what our "opposition" is made of.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2018, 06:39:48 AM
Oh, my second favourite line from the article listed Demszky the previous  and long-serving (liberal) mayor of Budapest, noting that "while he clearly is not an active agent presently, he had to be listed".


You really have to go back to the early 50s to find stuff to draw parallels with shit like this. And the anti-Jewish crap in the 30s and 40s, of course.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2018, 07:05:26 AM
Another person on the list of "confirmed Soros agents" is a fanatical Fidesz-voter lady, who has been a teacher at the Central European University that Fidesz wanted to shut down last year (and right now is forcing to relocate to Vienna).

At the time she wrote on Facebook that she always voted Fidesz but this is too much for her. The post gained countrywide infamy for her, as many people felt (like me) that it is not so attractive that she was quite alright with a lot of other  people losing their jobs thanks to Fidesz, as long as it wasn't hers.

But apparently, this was enough to make her an enemy agent.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 13, 2018, 03:42:40 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 13, 2018, 12:06:21 PM
There's a big demonstration planned for tomorrow to protest the result and the countless "mistakes" made during the election in the various districts that somehow all ended up hurting opposition votes.

The pro-government's press, including state TV, is in full-fledged Goebbels mode over it. Soros-hooligans, criminals, "evidence" of recruiting trouble makers from abroad... It is straight out of stories you read about the Nazi and Communist regimes.

Everything has been proving me right in my conclusion 4 years ago to move abroad. I knew this was coming. But seeing it unfold breaks my heart.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 13, 2018, 12:33:57 PM
The real insult is to the Rothschilds.  They invested centuries of family effort into being the center of the Jewish Banking Conspiracy, only to be usurped by this upstart Soros.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on April 13, 2018, 02:26:32 PM
The first generation creates the world wide banking conspiracy, the second generation maintains it and then the third generation...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 16, 2018, 05:51:24 AM
https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/viktor-orbans-lifelong-friend-became-a-billionaire-through-winning-state-contracts/5acf9fe9f1cdb31f4c1f8811
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 16, 2018, 11:24:23 AM
Election system well explained in English by a (American?) researcher lady:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5__vfWpds

It was filmed before the election and she quite correctly pointed out that it's already fixed and it's delusional to expect any other result than what happened.

Interview was made by Budapest Beacon and English language newspaper that closed down about a week ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 16, 2018, 12:43:00 PM
It got two thousand views eh? Sounds like the word is spreading
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 01, 2018, 02:32:43 PM
There has been a continuous tiny protest at a Budapest park where a bunch of people oppose the cutting of century old trees for some kind of government building projects. There have been constant clashes with the security personnel there and numerous occasions of the police acting as bystanders. There's even a video footage of the security guard's leader shouting with the police officer in charge of the cops on the site and the officer standing there like he is one of the privates in Full Metal Jacket's famous scene. In other words, it's very fishy and a good example of the mafia state that Hungary has become.

But the latest incident is extra precious. There was one of this pre-arranged demonstrations at the site when the security guards started dispersing the little crowd - not exactly legal. Police didn't care until actual brawling began.

But when one of the gorillas literally knocked out a girl about 10% of his weight, it was the girl who was taken to the police station - to be interrogated as suspect of attacking the security guard. You can see the hit a few seconds from this video's start point: https://youtu.be/kQdIQ4tu0Q8?t=100

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2018, 03:13:43 PM
She flopped. :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 09, 2018, 05:06:58 AM
Orban's personal oligarch, childhood friend and until a week ago mayor of his home village (he resigned because of "running his business"), Lorinc Meszaros, is now the richest man in Hungary.

A plumber/gas worker, he now owns powerplants, a TV station, countless businesses, factories, etc. He matches in wealth the owner of the bank OTP which is by far the biggest Hungarian bank with several international business interests.

He had about half a million dollars worth of wealth in 2010 (already a massive sum in Hungary for a village plumber/mayor), now he is a dollar billionaire.

If he continues to accumulate wealth at the same rate, he becomes richest man of the world in 2022.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 14, 2018, 02:02:45 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/13/viktor-orban-moves-ban-gender-studies-courses-university-dangerous/

QuoteViktor Orban moves to ban gender studies courses at university in 'dangerous precedent' for Hungary

A proposal by the Hungarian government to ban gender studies at universities in the country has been criticised as a "dangerous precedent" for state interference.

Hungary's ministry for human capacities said the proposed ban, which would come into effect at the start of the 2019 academic year, had been introduced because employers showed no interest in graduates from the subject.

But critics say the ban is part of a campaign by Prime Minister Viktor Orban to attack NGOs or institutions that oppose his Fidesz party's socially conservative narrative.

Andrea Peto, a gender studies professor at the Central European University, one of the two universities that could be affected, said the proposed ban violated the Hungarian constitution, which protects the freedom of scientific research and learning.

"Never before has the government sought to legislate the curriculum of universities without consultation with the appropriate university institutions, Hungarian Accreditation Committee and the Higher Educational Planning Council," Professor Peto told The Telegraph. "It also sets a dangerous precedent for state intervention in all other university courses."

The Central European University, and Budapest's Eotvos Lorand University, the other institution teaching gender studies, were given just 24 hours to respond to the proposal.

The explanation from the  ministry for human capacities has failed to quash suspicions in Hungary that the government has turned on a subject it believes poses a threat to the traditional Christian and family values it claims to protect and uphold.

Bence Retvari, a state secretary at the capacities ministry, has questioned whether gender studies is a legitimate academic field of study.  Earlier this year Mr Orban said that the "Christian democracy" his government was creating in Hungary protects the "traditional family model of one man one woman".

A ban on gender studies could deepen the anxiety in the EU over the direction Hungary is taking.

Mr Orban has declared his intention to build an "illiberal democracy" in the Central European state and has mounted a fierce challenge to the multi-cultural liberal democracy he believes the bloc encourages and promotes.

Last month Brussels stepped up a legal battle with Budapest over migration laws, and declared as illegal new Hungarian laws that make it a crime for organisation or individuals to support illegal migration.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 14, 2018, 07:38:07 AM
Well the King is on holiday, there are no migrants at the gates, they had to thematise public discourse until main season starts in the Autumn again.

Plus they get to act like they have an ideology driving them instead of rampant pillaging.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 17, 2018, 06:34:49 AM
Finally somebody coined a term for what I've been talking about going on in Hungary: refeudalisation

Agnes Heller's full interview is here: http://politicalcritique.org/cee/hungary/2018/agnes-heller-orban-is-a-tyrant/

But the best bit:

QuoteEveryone who is under Orban must serve him and must agree with him. No counter opinion is tolerated because this is a mass society, not a class society. In a mass society, there are no class interests. Even the poor people have no class interest.

In a mass society, a new thing appears, which we call refeudalization. It means that corruption is different from traditional corruption. Traditional corruption is that rich people corrupt one or another politician, they buy a politician in order to serve their economic interests. In refeudalization the opposite is true. The rulers of Fidesz and Orban in particular create their own oligarchy, and the oligarchy depends on politics, and not politics on oligarchy. Take the mayor of Felcsut and a childhood friend of Orban, Lorinc Meszaros. He was a nobody but in a few years he amassed enormous wealth and now is one of the richest people in the world. He basically has half of Hungary under his control. Of course, everybody knows that this is Orban's money, not Meszaros' but this cannot be proven.

BTW Agnes Heller is a kind of philosopher I guess. Because of this interview some government officials labelled her as an old communist, to be ignored on that merit.

She was an early member of the communist party indeed, in 1944, but left it fairly quickly, disillusioned. In fact her and her husband's career and life was ruined subsequently by the Party.

The persons calling her communist though, were all local or higher functionaries in if nothing else the communist youth organisation right until the very end when they switched to be democrats.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 21, 2018, 06:26:02 AM
The Hungarian joke/parody political party ha repaired a pothole in Orban's home village as a political stunt.

Now they have received an official notice from the local council that they have 8 days to "restore the road to its original state" or they will be billed for the "repair works" carried out on it to "fix" what they have done.

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on August 22, 2018, 02:30:20 AM
I'm now trying to think about how you unfix a pothole. :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2018, 07:10:07 AM
International scandal that's getting WAY more public attention in Hungary  (judged via Facebook shares etc) than any of the mind-boggling corruption cases:

Orban's eldest daughter (and, I am fairly certain, heir apparent) was photographed leaving a used diaper on the side of a petrol station parking lot in Croatia:

(https://www.tportal.hr/media/thumbnail/900x540/827409.jpeg?cropId=620712)

The Croats are not amused either.

I think at any case its a great indicator of the kind of class that family is. She is married to a billionaire (made into one post-marriage to be fair), there was a fucking petrol station with bins.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 22, 2018, 08:29:45 AM
Something about the Orbans stinks
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on August 22, 2018, 11:57:55 AM
Well, it depends.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on August 22, 2018, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 22, 2018, 11:57:55 AM
Well, it depends.

She has probably lived a pampered life.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on August 23, 2018, 02:34:02 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 22, 2018, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 22, 2018, 11:57:55 AM
Well, it depends.

She has probably lived a pampered life.

No shit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on August 23, 2018, 02:56:34 AM
Diaper puns. :x
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on August 23, 2018, 04:50:23 AM
QuoteHungary Intentionally Denying Food To Asylum-Seekers, Watchdog Groups Say

Hungary's government has stopped providing food to adult asylum-seekers who have been denied but have appealed their cases, prompting outcry from human rights groups and intervention from the European Court of Human Rights.

Authorities have not only refused to provide food to those asylum-seekers, but also denied them permission to buy their own food and blocked attempts by outside groups to donate food, according to the Hungarian Helsinki Committee, a human rights watchdog group based in Hungary that has provided legal assistance to the asylum-seekers.

András Léderer, information and advocacy officer for the HHC's refugee program, tells NPR that the policy appears to be designed to "force people to abandon their asylum applications."

The European Court of Human Rights has stepped in repeatedly to order Hungary to provide food to the asylum seekers — one case at a time.

"Basically, you have to go to court in order to get a slice of bread," Lydia Gall, a Budapest-based researcher for Human Rights Watch, tells NPR. "It's completely absurd and inhuman."

"This latest antic of depriving people of food is just the latest in a row of various measures that the government has taken to [persuade] people to leave," she says.

Hungary's immigration service did not respond to an email from NPR requesting comment. The office told Hungarian media earlier this week that it is not explicitly obligated to feed asylum seekers whose claims are rejected, Human Rights Watch says.
(...)
Hungary's current government is extremely anti-immigration — Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has called refugees "Muslim invaders" — and earlier this summer, it passed a group of laws called the "Stop Soros" package that further intensified anti-immigration policies.

One of the laws prohibited nonprofit organizations from providing aid to undocumented immigrants. Another measure altered various elements of Hungary's immigration and asylum laws.

One of those changes led to the denial of food to asylum-seekers. The rule change — which went into effect in early July — specifies that when an asylum claim is rejected, a would-be refugee in a transit zone is subject to "alien policing procedures," even if they've appealed their cases.

And under "alien policing procedures," the government maintains, it has no obligation to feed adults.

Since then, eight asylum-seekers have been rejected and appealed their cases, Léderer says. While they waited for the results of their appeal, Hungarian authorities stopped providing them with food.

Court orders that asylum-seekers be fed, one case at a time

The European Court of Human Rights confirms that it has stepped in with "interim measures" in four cases this month. Another case is currently pending before the court, the Hungarian Helsinki Committee says.

Until the court steps in, that asylum-seeker in question — a young woman from Afghanistan — is not being fed, the organization says.

Children and breastfeeding mothers have been provided food, the HHC says, but they were prohibited from sharing it with family members.
(...)
Some of the asylum-seekers who have been denied food have had cash on them and have asked permission to buy food, "but there is no option for them," Léderer says.

According to Hungarian media outlets, a pastor named Gábor Iványi, who runs a prominent charity, collected food for refugees and attempted to deliver it to the transit zone. He was turned away by authorities, Léderer confirmed. Iványi has been a vocal critic of the Hungarian government.

Gall and Léderer both say the policy seems designed to pressure asylum-seekers to turn away of their own accord.

"A person who's been deprived of food for two or three days [will] start looking around for options to get that food," says Gall, the Human Rights Watch researcher. "And the only way that they can do that at the moment is to abandon their claims and walk out the door back into Serbia. But then, legally speaking, they will abandon their asylum claim."

If they want to file another claim, she says, they have to get at the back of the line to enter one of Hungary's transit zones — and the wait is more than 18 months.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on September 12, 2018, 08:07:20 AM
The European Parliament has formally asked the Council to open Article 7 proceedings against Hungary. I suppose that Poland will eventually veto it (the warning stage of Article 7 doesn't have single-state veto, but the actual sanctions do).

Quote
The European Parliament voted on Wednesday to trigger Article 7 disciplinary procedures against Hungary for undermining democratic rules.

The motion to trigger Article 7 passed in the Strasbourg plenary session with 448 votes in favour, 197 against and 48 abstentions.

The same procedure was launched by the European Commission against Poland in December 2017, but Wednesday's vote marks the first time that the European legislature has ever triggered the action.

What is Article 7?
Article 7, often dubbed the "nuclear option", is the EU's punishment clause, allowing it to discipline member states when there is a "clear risk of a serious breach" of the bloc's core principles.

A proposal to trigger Article 7 can be brought forward by the European Parliament, the European Commission or by one-third of member states.

The European Council, with the consent of the European Parliament, must then reach a four-fifths majority decision on the proposal, and speak to the state in question.

Once adopted, the measure has two parts—a preventative mechanism and a sanctioning mechanism.

Article 7(1), as triggered against Hungary, means a formal warning is given to the state. If this doesn't have the desired effect, Article 7(2) can be used to impose sanctions and suspend EU voting rights.

Why Hungary?
Dutch MEP Judith Sargentini wrote a report into Hungary and Prime Minister Viktor Orban's Fidesz party, which launched the debate on Wednesday.

The report accuses of various breaches of EU values.

It cites migrant abuse; restrictions on press freedom; corruption and conflicts of interest; and "stereotypical attitudes" towards women, among other concerns.

What has Orban said?
During a debate over the motion on Tuesday, Orban remained defiant, telling lawmakers he would not bow to EU "blackmail".

"You think that you know the needs of the Hungarian people better than the Hungarian people themselves. Therefore I must say to you that this report does not show respect for the Hungarian people. This report applies double standards, it is an abuse of power, it oversteps the limits on spheres of competence, and the method of its adoption is a treaty violation," he said.

"Hungary shall continue to defend its borders, stop illegal immigration and defend its rights – against you, too, if necessary," he said, drawing applause from the eurosceptic, far-right lawmakers in the assembly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on September 12, 2018, 09:21:43 AM
Excellent
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on September 12, 2018, 02:16:07 PM
As much as I like to see the EU taking a stand, do these things ever work? Orban will just play the evil EU card and strengthen his position at home.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on September 12, 2018, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 12, 2018, 02:16:07 PM
As much as I like to see the EU taking a stand, do these things ever work? Orban will just play the evil EU card and strengthen his position at home.

The language seems poorly chosen.

There's a fairly straight-forward case for sanctions against Orban - for violating democratic principles.  But then they go on mixing "attitudes towards women" and other leftist concerns which are maybe not so clear cut.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 13, 2018, 02:18:47 AM
Well, at least Orban has the backing of the British conservatives in the EU Parliament: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/viktor-orban-conservative-european-parliament-theresa-may-a8534401.html
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on September 13, 2018, 02:30:57 AM
A breakdown of the vote :

http://debateuncensored.x10host.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=45&pid=87#pid87
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:06:07 AM
The general breakdown of the vote along party lines is more or less as expected. Overwhelming condemnation from most places and support from partisans and knuckledraggers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:16:40 AM
Also somehow funny/ironic/sign of the times how the European Parlament has ended up with 3 different groups that can be labeled "far right nationalists". I'd argue that only one of those groups (ENF) is true to that label.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on September 13, 2018, 05:29:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:06:07 AM
The general breakdown of the vote along party lines is more or less as expected. Overwhelming condemnation from most places and support from partisans and knuckledraggers.

Yes, but unfortunately the knuckledraggers have veto powers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 05:40:27 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 13, 2018, 05:29:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:06:07 AM
The general breakdown of the vote along party lines is more or less as expected. Overwhelming condemnation from most places and support from partisans and knuckledraggers.

Yes, but unfortunately the knuckledraggers have veto powers.

Yup, Poland would veto anything really tough for sure, given that they're next in line, so to speak, although Poland got hit with the same stick recently for their judiciary reform and AFAIK Hungary didn't block anything at that time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on September 13, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 05:40:27 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 13, 2018, 05:29:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:06:07 AM
The general breakdown of the vote along party lines is more or less as expected. Overwhelming condemnation from most places and support from partisans and knuckledraggers.

Yes, but unfortunately the knuckledraggers have veto powers.

Yup, Poland would veto anything really tough for sure, given that they're next in line, so to speak, although Poland got hit with the same stick recently for their judiciary reform and AFAIK Hungary didn't block anything at that time.

The process hasn't reached the stage where they can veto yet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 13, 2018, 09:06:15 AM
I thought the entire basis for the EU was shared democratic values. But you can run a dictatorship complete with political prisoners and internment camps so long as you can get one other country in the EU to go along with it? Well hell considering the rogues gallery of Eastern European nations in this thing that should not be too hard.

This is another example as to why confederations do not work.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 09:48:18 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 13, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 05:40:27 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 13, 2018, 05:29:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:06:07 AM
The general breakdown of the vote along party lines is more or less as expected. Overwhelming condemnation from most places and support from partisans and knuckledraggers.

Yes, but unfortunately the knuckledraggers have veto powers.

Yup, Poland would veto anything really tough for sure, given that they're next in line, so to speak, although Poland got hit with the same stick recently for their judiciary reform and AFAIK Hungary didn't block anything at that time.

The process hasn't reached the stage where they can veto yet.

I know, I mean down the line. This is just the beginning of the process after all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 10:28:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2018, 09:06:15 AM
I thought the entire basis for the EU was shared democratic values. But you can run a dictatorship complete with political prisoners and internment camps so long as you can get one other country in the EU to go along with it? Well hell considering the rogues gallery of Eastern European nations in this thing that should not be too hard.

This is another example as to why confederations do not work.

That's why after the enlargements the voting system was modified to remove national vetos for many topics, as total unanimity is near impossible to reach nowadays with so many countries and so many interests. Veto is retained only for the most severe stuff, like this kind of punishment proceedings.

I guess nobody foresaw that an EU country could descend so quickly into pseudo-autocracy when already inside the club.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on September 13, 2018, 10:40:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 09:48:18 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 13, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 05:40:27 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 13, 2018, 05:29:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 04:06:07 AM
The general breakdown of the vote along party lines is more or less as expected. Overwhelming condemnation from most places and support from partisans and knuckledraggers.

Yes, but unfortunately the knuckledraggers have veto powers.

Yup, Poland would veto anything really tough for sure, given that they're next in line, so to speak, although Poland got hit with the same stick recently for their judiciary reform and AFAIK Hungary didn't block anything at that time.

The process hasn't reached the stage where they can veto yet.

I know, I mean down the line. This is just the beginning of the process after all.

I mean Poland's. Poland got a warning, warnings can't be vetoed. Actual sanctions can. IIRC last june they postponed the decision on whether to move forward with sanctions.

Problem is that the veto turns Article 7 into a paper tiger.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 20, 2018, 06:30:16 AM
Seems like Index.hu is the next casualty in the Fidesz takeover of the entire Hungarian media.

For a non-Hungarian its probably impossible to understand the implications of that. Index.hu was THE Internet in terms of news and information since the late-90s at least. And it was always a liberal voice.

It did get under owernships of an oligarch wanting to score good points with Fidesz, 7 years ago. That's how one of the founders left, gathered some uncompromising colleagues and founded 444.hu (4 is where the exclamation mark is on Hungarian keyboards), which now remains the only truly independ AND widely read online medium.

So, Index definitely got mellower in criticising the government then but they were very much considered on the "other side" by the powers that be.

During Orban's war with his once-right hand man Simicska, Simicska set up a fairly complicated setup where Index proper got into a hand of a foundation to ensure creative freedom, but all the financial controls, like selling advert space etc. got under a different company that remained under his wings.

Now after Simicska's surrender and exile, this financial control company is now suddenly in the hands of previously unknown government lackey.

Index of course swore they are still free, but...

I noticed yesterday that there was no news that would show the government in critical light on their front page, or in the Internal politics section.

This morning I was pleasantly surprised to see them leading with the newest infos on the enrichening of Orban's son in-law. Fast forward a few hours though, and that article, as far as I can see is gone. At the very least, hidden so well that I have not been able to find it.

So yeah that's how life is in Hungary. It's quite a clever system if you think about it. You syphoned every cent of tax money and EU subsidies you could, built up a loyal new aristocracy, and they use their wealth to put the media under your personal control. No need to send in the police to silence journalists when nobody gets to read them.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 20, 2018, 07:25:55 AM
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1042445300567343104
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 20, 2018, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2018, 06:30:16 AM
So yeah that's how life is in Hungary. It's quite a clever system if you think about it. You syphoned every cent of tax money and EU subsidies you could, built up a loyal new aristocracy, and they use their wealth to put the media under your personal control. No need to send in the police to silence journalists when nobody gets to read them.

There is something very Soviet about it...or I guess Russian.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 20, 2018, 11:58:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2018, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2018, 06:30:16 AM
So yeah that's how life is in Hungary. It's quite a clever system if you think about it. You syphoned every cent of tax money and EU subsidies you could, built up a loyal new aristocracy, and they use their wealth to put the media under your personal control. No need to send in the police to silence journalists when nobody gets to read them.

There is something very Soviet about it...or I guess Russian.

Hungarian. :secret:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2018, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 12, 2018, 02:16:07 PM
As much as I like to see the EU taking a stand, do these things ever work? Orban will just play the evil EU card and strengthen his position at home.

The language seems poorly chosen.

There's a fairly straight-forward case for sanctions against Orban - for violating democratic principles.  But then they go on mixing "attitudes towards women" and other leftist concerns which are maybe not so clear cut.

Attitude toward women is a leftist concern?  Are you suggesting right wingers are all sexist pigs or compliant females?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on September 20, 2018, 12:23:56 PM
I kinda feel bad about making fun of Tamas for backward-ass country. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 13, 2018, 10:28:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2018, 09:06:15 AM
I thought the entire basis for the EU was shared democratic values. But you can run a dictatorship complete with political prisoners and internment camps so long as you can get one other country in the EU to go along with it? Well hell considering the rogues gallery of Eastern European nations in this thing that should not be too hard.

This is another example as to why confederations do not work.

That's why after the enlargements the voting system was modified to remove national vetos for many topics, as total unanimity is near impossible to reach nowadays with so many countries and so many interests. Veto is retained only for the most severe stuff, like this kind of punishment proceedings.

I guess nobody foresaw that an EU country could descend so quickly into pseudo-autocracy when already inside the club.

Don't beat yourselves up too badly.  Nobody foresaw the US turning into this kind of shitshow either.  Right wing populism isnt unique to EU countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 20, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
I don't think it was some kind of unforseen event that these kinds of problems would creep up in Eastern Europe. There had been full blown nationalist pogroms there in recent memory.

One of the purposes of EU expansion was to strengthen democratic elements, which were recognized as potentially fragile.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on September 20, 2018, 04:22:50 PM
I think that we have made a mistake in thinking that democracy leads to efficient and contented states. It is more that only efficient and contented states can afford the "luxury" of democracy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on September 20, 2018, 04:24:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
I don't think it was some kind of unforseen event that these kinds of problems would creep up in Eastern Europe. There had been full blown nationalist pogroms there in recent memory.

One of the purposes of EU expansion was to strengthen democratic elements, which were recognized as potentially fragile.

It was either the EU or the Russians. I think despite the shitshows in Poland/Hungary they are still better off.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 04:33:23 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
I don't think it was some kind of unforseen event that these kinds of problems would creep up in Eastern Europe. There had been full blown nationalist pogroms there in recent memory.

One of the purposes of EU expansion was to strengthen democratic elements, which were recognized as potentially fragile.

The nationalism largely started after admission, not before.  People easily forget the hope everyone had for Hungary - and for good reason.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 21, 2018, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 04:33:23 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
I don't think it was some kind of unforseen event that these kinds of problems would creep up in Eastern Europe. There had been full blown nationalist pogroms there in recent memory.

One of the purposes of EU expansion was to strengthen democratic elements, which were recognized as potentially fragile.

The nationalism largely started after admission, not before.  People easily forget the hope everyone had for Hungary - and for good reason.

A painful memory I often cite is reading an English article not long after our 2004 joining of EU (and Schengen), where the journalist analysed how Hungary's general frontrunner status in the region and the large number of ethnic Hungarians in the neighbouring countries prety much destines the country to grow into the strongest country there, extorting disproportional economic influence over neighbours via their corporations who'll be bound to expand across the borders.

How far reality has fallen from that.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on September 21, 2018, 09:09:41 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 03:42:02 PM

Don't beat yourselves up too badly.  Nobody foresaw the US turning into this kind of shitshow either.  Right wing populism isnt unique to EU countries.

Only Canada is left  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on September 21, 2018, 09:31:40 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 21, 2018, 09:09:41 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 03:42:02 PM

Don't beat yourselves up too badly.  Nobody foresaw the US turning into this kind of shitshow either.  Right wing populism isnt unique to EU countries.

Only Canada is left  :(

Harper tried to edge that way, but it backfired on him. But no one is really safe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on September 21, 2018, 09:49:39 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2018, 09:31:40 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 21, 2018, 09:09:41 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 20, 2018, 03:42:02 PM

Don't beat yourselves up too badly.  Nobody foresaw the US turning into this kind of shitshow either.  Right wing populism isnt unique to EU countries.

Only Canada is left  :(

Harper tried to edge that way, but it backfired on him. But no one is really safe.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on September 21, 2018, 10:13:23 AM
Don't roll your eyes at me, I voted for him at different points in time. but he had a plan
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 19, 2018, 06:40:44 AM
So, being homeless is illegal in Hungary since Monday. Well, living on the street is.

You can't deny they employ modern technology in fighting this new menace of people having nowhere to stay.

One of the homeless, arrested after 4 warnings by police to GTFO into a shelter (which he claimed he couldn't because his papers were stolen), was not transported to his trial, instead he was connected in remotely:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--X_JMyray--/w_1160/7DmKd34SKE2J132mms.jpeg)


At the end the judge just gave him a warning and he has to pay costs, about 15 pounds.


My old country is becoming a really disgusting place.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 19, 2018, 10:43:48 AM
As it turns out the remote camera hearing has been introduced as a rule for dealing with homeless with this new legislation - before that only protected witnesses could request such a thing, otherwise wasn't used.

It's not too gross for them to judge them, but smelling them while doing so? Hell no!

Second case today was a woman who works as a cleaner but she has lost her home 6 months ago when her husband died. Got a warning as well.

Another arrest today: 3 police officers and a police van to get a single homeless guy to jail:
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--0D73ukKI--/w_1160/7DmZpEs2yDkZQ4HQs.jpeg)

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--OFyouYp7--/w_1160/7DmZp9QX1bUfQ4HQs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 19, 2018, 12:44:07 PM
Hungarian police has some serious fashion issues. They look like they're going to enter into a factory shift.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on October 19, 2018, 12:50:07 PM
You know Tamas we use remote court appearances all the time - basically for anything that isn't a trial.  Court staff prefer it because it's much easier.  Prisoners prefer it because then they aren't stuck sitting in a holding cell in the basement of the courthouse for hours and hours.

Defence lawyers don't like it because then they have to drive to the remand centre to interview their clients, but they should be doing that anyways.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 19, 2018, 02:04:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2018, 12:50:07 PM
You know Tamas we use remote court appearances all the time - basically for anything that isn't a trial.  Court staff prefer it because it's much easier.  Prisoners prefer it because then they aren't stuck sitting in a holding cell in the basement of the courthouse for hours and hours.

Defence lawyers don't like it because then they have to drive to the remand centre to interview their clients, but they should be doing that anyways.

Yes but as it turns out, this was not an option at all until now. Only possible reason for it was if a protected witness didn't want to attend in person. Nobody else had this option. Until the need arose to trial homeless persons for being homeless. Then all of a sudden not only it was ok not to have them in the courtroom, it became required.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 24, 2018, 04:50:28 PM
Hey Tamas, what does the text on this picture say? It's supposed to be from a current Hungarian schoolbook about the EU.

(https://external-preview.redd.it/IiGNIYsbMubSlo5ws4STQ7T9lIEJijfS-FJI7OhlAkY.jpg?width=638&auto=webp&s=b15e7cfcae766a1ee9136cbe9fa4e62bd46273b9)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 25, 2018, 07:32:40 AM
"Among the world's leading powers

Germany is the most populous country in Europe, and with the largest economic production. It is one of the EU's most important political influence, a decisive actor in world economics and politics."

The picture:
"Germany pays the most to the EU budget. Identify the flags on the caricature, and analyse the drawing!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 25, 2018, 07:35:40 AM
There seems to be a misdrawn Belgian flag, or the German flag is rotated 90% on one of the piglets.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 25, 2018, 08:01:06 AM
The Hungarian piglet also looks kinda derpy.  :lol:

The serious text doesn't really match the tone and message of the picture, though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2018, 11:38:19 AM
The other piglets have already been made into sausages I guess. Probably by the Germans who are well-known as sausage experts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on October 25, 2018, 12:01:03 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 25, 2018, 08:01:06 AM
The Hungarian piglet also looks kinda derpy.  :lol:

The serious text doesn't really match the tone and message of the picture, though.

It is a school exercise to describe what is occurring in a caricature (the picture).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on October 25, 2018, 12:03:09 PM
Why is there a Belgian pig? The original PIIGS of the Euro crisis were Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain...?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 25, 2018, 12:16:44 PM
Trying to get into an anti-EU mindset  :hmm:... I presume it's because EU=Brussels, and thus they suck Germany's tit too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Oexmelin on October 25, 2018, 01:22:26 PM
Central European University to leave Hungary for Vienna.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2018, 01:49:54 PM
150 miles from Budapest to Vienna and they are in different worlds.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on October 25, 2018, 07:13:27 PM
Just wait till the far right takes over Austria.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2018, 06:06:26 AM
During the election campaign earlier this year (which was all MIGRANTS and SOROS all the time), the state TV interviewed a Swedish woman with Hungarian origins. She spoke about how she has become terrified of muslim migrants in Sweden and decided to move to Hungary, and in general just how Sweden is descending to utter chaos and anarchy due to these unwashed masses of coloured people.

A journalist of a major news site look into it and found that first of all, this lady (in her late 30s/early 40s IIRC) has bought a flat in Budapest several years ago so not exactly a fresh refuge from the Muslim onslaught. And secondly, in Sweden she was found guilty in 7 counts of fraud of some sorts. All in all, he quite easily proved that the lady has a highly controversial relationship with truth and integrity in general.

Well, state prosecution has put the journalist's case against a judge now, on grounds of abusing personal information or whatnot.

They keep pushing for an Erdoganic system, one baby-step at a time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on October 31, 2018, 07:10:58 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on October 25, 2018, 07:13:27 PM
Just wait till the far right takes over Austria.

Still, if they take over Hungary after Austria that will be an improvement.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 09, 2018, 06:19:30 AM
A rabidly pro-government, fairly recently (a year or two ago) created cheap tabloid:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--J_VrEqFB--/w_1160/7EIz8EK1jc8YDo9hs.jpeg)


The main, black part says:

"They have hidden in parks, small underpasses
How long will our patience be exploited BY THE HOMELESS?
Do they have to abide no rules?"


:huh: I guess with the Muslim hordes failing to show up at the fence, a new enemy must be found.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 09, 2018, 06:43:16 AM
Probably related to old beliefs in trolls that linger in the Eastern Bloc.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on November 09, 2018, 03:01:45 PM
If they are hiding, what's the problem?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 13, 2018, 08:01:34 AM
Just so you see that entire Eastern Europe is like this (well, and the US of A nowadays):

In Slovakia at the start of the year there were massive protests that basically toppled the government at the time, following the brutal murder of an investigative journalist and his girlfriend. The guy was writing about the links between the Italian Maffia and the Slovakian ruling circles.

Now it seems the police had the young organisers of these protests interrogated, due to an "anonymus tip" that they have been funded by George Soros and have been conspiring against the state.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--tO9CUS2_--/w_1160/7EPKO98rL71uBq8ts.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 13, 2018, 08:27:36 AM
Also the former Macedonian PM now under an international arrest warrant due to corruption charges back home, has fled to Hungary and requesting asylum.


Speaking of Macedonia, there was a glorious little episode noted by a few people, when the petty little pro-government (and fidesz-funded) "news" site, 888.hu (the main, and popular, liberal news site is 444.hu), was a little confused over what was happening during Maceodnia's civil disorder last year (when people stormed the Parliament):

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4258c4d2b11f130a77e399d8c9003e2e8007eb724029e817ecd9f23044303f05.jpg)


The top on reads: "Soros' men have attacked the parliament of Macedonia"

Bottom one, 20 minutes later of course says: "People having enough of Soros' influence stormed the parliament of Macedonia".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on November 14, 2018, 08:22:16 AM
Hey Tamas, apparently the former PM of Macedonia has ran away from the country to avoid a 2 year prison sentence for corruption and has asked for asylum in Hungary. Any news from Hungarian sources on the topic?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 14, 2018, 08:27:40 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 14, 2018, 08:22:16 AM
Hey Tamas, apparently the former PM of Macedonia has ran away from the country to avoid a 2 year prison sentence for corruption and has asked for asylum in Hungary. Any news from Hungarian sources on the topic?

It is semi-confirmed by the government. They are evaluating his asylum request, we are told.

There are juicy details of course that supporters of the government will no doubt ignore: first of all Macedonia has been declared a safe country to make sure colored migrants can be sent back there according to the new laws, so if kept to the law they themselves made, this guy should be shoved back to Macedonia fairly promptly.

Second of all, as per the same laws (designed for dealing with undesirables), any person entering the country without being permitted to do so -like this guy- needs to wait for his asylum request evaluation in the so-called transit zone, the concentration camp on the Serbian border designed to convince people they are better off turning back. It's the kind of place where families waiting for their appeal on their first-round rejected request were denied food and were told to return to Serbia if they are hungry (thereby forfeiting their appeal request).

Needless to say this guy is not there.

This is a further step in unveiling Hungary as the banana republic it has become, but of course nothing will come of it, and the Macedonian guy will probably be quietly shipped to Russia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on November 14, 2018, 08:35:45 AM
D'oh, just saw that you mentioned it yesterday.  :face: :Embarrass: :hide:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 15, 2018, 12:34:50 PM
According to some Albanian newspaper, judging by border-crossing records it was a car owned by the Hungarian embassy in Tirana that transported the former Macedonian PM from Macedonia to Serbia.

Incidentally, one of the private jets regularly used by Orban to go to football matches and weird short trips to Switzerland and such (oligarch-owned) did land in Belgrade right about the good time to pick this guy up.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 30, 2018, 05:08:31 AM
Just so you are aware of what kind of governments get a pass for being EU members:

until about Tuesday, a giant portion of the Hungarian media had been in control of about half a dozen Orbanite oligarchs. ALL the regional newspapers, several magazines, radio stations, 3 major TV stations, assorted webpages.

Start of this week, these have been "donated" to a "Central European Media Foundation" created earlier this summer. This is hundreds of millions of pounds worth of companies, dumped free of charge into a "charity". Which is, needless to say, is run by a very dependable Orban media guy. (he gained the boss' trust in the 90s when illegally transferred ownership of a major newspaper to Fidesz' only oligarch at the time. The deal was revoked by the courts and he lost his job but with his loyalty proven beyon doubt his future was settled).

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 05:27:08 AM
The parliamentary opposition has suddenly grown some balls. Upheveal in Parliament right now not seen since, ever, really.

This morning the Parliament was scheduled to vote on a bill making working conditions severly worse for Hungarians, almost doubling the over-hours employers can require from employees. It used to be 250 hours per year with payment for them possibly deffered for a few months. The new bill will have this increased to 400 hours per year with payment for those hours possibly deferred for up to 3 years.

The opposition MPs have blocked the pulpit of the chamber so voting could not be started legally but this didn't slow Fidesz down, they just started proceedings regardless, so the opposition MPs are trying to disturb them with whistles and by blocking their access to their voting buttons at their seats.

What's happening right now, (an MP streaming live), is that the voting-buttons are supposed to work only with the particular MP's ID card inserted to authenticate. They have apparently switched the system though, so anyone can just push the button, as well documented on the live stream. With utter chaos in the chamber and MPs all over the place, this makes it unlawful.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on December 12, 2018, 05:58:28 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffavoritememes.com%2F_nw%2F94%2F46655640.jpg&hash=0ca3e4b2b7b391213ad7c8df18aba89bb7c27f5a)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 06:32:10 AM
One of the bills that has just made it into law despite the chaos was the final neutering of the courts.

The government now will establish a "special court" where all cases concerning the management of public affairs (so including all corruption charges on public figures and the like) will go. Judges for this special court will be appointed by the Justice Minister, unlike for the regular courts where an independent body of judges decides on appointments. Fidesz has been trying hard to inflitrate and take over this organisation but they have had only partial success until now. This law eliminates that problem. Independent judges will continue to decide in cases that do not concern the rulers. The cases that do concern them will be handled by their own people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 03:23:02 PM
I was watching live a few hundred protesters in a phalanx-style pushing-match with riot police on the stairs of Parliament. The two guys streaming just had to retreat from the first line after getting a face-ful of pepper spray. They are brave people but there are very few of them compared to the evilness of the laws accepted today, and there are far more police than protesters. It's hopeless.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 12, 2018, 04:23:56 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 03:23:02 PM
I was watching live a few hundred protesters in a phalanx-style pushing-match with riot police on the stairs of Parliament. The two guys streaming just had to retreat from the first line after getting a face-ful of pepper spray. They are brave people but there are very few of them compared to the evilness of the laws accepted today, and there are far more police than protesters. It's hopeless.

I'll wait for BB to weigh in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on December 12, 2018, 04:25:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 12, 2018, 04:23:56 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 03:23:02 PM
I was watching live a few hundred protesters in a phalanx-style pushing-match with riot police on the stairs of Parliament. The two guys streaming just had to retreat from the first line after getting a face-ful of pepper spray. They are brave people but there are very few of them compared to the evilness of the laws accepted today, and there are far more police than protesters. It's hopeless.

I'll wait for BB to weigh in.

I'm about 172 right now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 12, 2018, 04:38:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 12, 2018, 04:25:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 12, 2018, 04:23:56 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 03:23:02 PM
I was watching live a few hundred protesters in a phalanx-style pushing-match with riot police on the stairs of Parliament. The two guys streaming just had to retreat from the first line after getting a face-ful of pepper spray. They are brave people but there are very few of them compared to the evilness of the laws accepted today, and there are far more police than protesters. It's hopeless.

I'll wait for BB to weigh in.

I'm about 172 right now.

OK katmai.

Oh you probably mean pounds, I was thinking stone. :blush:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 04:59:19 PM
Hod bless technology. You can see on live stream as a journalist gets pepper-sprayed straight into his eyes and into the mobile camera he is holding.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on December 12, 2018, 05:02:20 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 12, 2018, 04:38:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 12, 2018, 04:25:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 12, 2018, 04:23:56 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 03:23:02 PM
I was watching live a few hundred protesters in a phalanx-style pushing-match with riot police on the stairs of Parliament. The two guys streaming just had to retreat from the first line after getting a face-ful of pepper spray. They are brave people but there are very few of them compared to the evilness of the laws accepted today, and there are far more police than protesters. It's hopeless.

I'll wait for BB to weigh in.

I'm about 172 right now.

OK katmai.

Oh you probably mean pounds, I was thinking stone. :blush:

:yes:

Ideally I should try and drop around 10 pounds.  :blush:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 04:40:57 AM
Government's press guy: last night's protest was anti-Christian, anti-Christmas violence perpetrated by organisations on Soros' payroll.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 05:00:45 AM
(https://168ora.hu/data/cikkek/160/1605/cikk-160560/tuntetes1212_7_fit_800x10000.jpg?key=23b976569b63c47500059f174942719e)

(https://168ora.hu/data/cikkek/160/1605/cikk-160560/tuntetes1212_13_fit_800x10000.jpg?key=bfb009bf026053d3e46b71633a3ebd9a)

(https://168ora.hu/data/cikkek/160/1605/cikk-160560/tuntetes1212_14_fit_800x10000.jpg?key=c9d1502c182ac445f2ea3c282d5d0a81)

(https://168ora.hu/data/cikkek/160/1605/cikk-160560/tuntetes1212_20_fit_800x10000.jpg?key=bb871d41abbb65da9d7a3c224b5e06b1)

(https://168ora.hu/data/cikkek/160/1605/cikk-160560/tuntetes1212_18_focuspoint_460x305.jpg)


Not exactly Paris, but hey. Unfortunately our hooligans are all with the far-right, which is on government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on December 13, 2018, 12:50:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 06:32:10 AM
One of the bills that has just made it into law despite the chaos was the final neutering of the courts.

The government now will establish a "special court" where all cases concerning the management of public affairs (so including all corruption charges on public figures and the like) will go. Judges for this special court will be appointed by the Justice Minister, unlike for the regular courts where an independent body of judges decides on appointments. Fidesz has been trying hard to inflitrate and take over this organisation but they have had only partial success until now. This law eliminates that problem. Independent judges will continue to decide in cases that do not concern the rulers. The cases that do concern them will be handled by their own people.

Isn't that similar to what Poland tried to do that got them bitchslapped by the EU into submission?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on December 13, 2018, 12:50:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2018, 06:32:10 AM
One of the bills that has just made it into law despite the chaos was the final neutering of the courts.

The government now will establish a "special court" where all cases concerning the management of public affairs (so including all corruption charges on public figures and the like) will go. Judges for this special court will be appointed by the Justice Minister, unlike for the regular courts where an independent body of judges decides on appointments. Fidesz has been trying hard to inflitrate and take over this organisation but they have had only partial success until now. This law eliminates that problem. Independent judges will continue to decide in cases that do not concern the rulers. The cases that do concern them will be handled by their own people.

Isn't that similar to what Poland tried to do that got them bitchslapped by the EU into submission?

IIRC they wanted to get all the courts under the government's  direct control. Orban's people are much smarter: who cares who rules over divorces, petty crimes, etc? They already control the chief attorney anyways. But every case where the state is one of parties will go to this special court. Including stuff where citizens will have an argument with it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 02:17:14 PM
I find it a little interesting how Austria, home of the centralizing and tyrannical Habsburgs, have adapted to democratic institutions so well. On the other hand: Hungary, who fought so long to preserve their institutions from those same Habsburgs, has embraced centralized arbitrary authoritarianism every chance it has gotten since independence.

Granted Austria had a few issues from 1919 until 1945.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 02:17:14 PM
I find it a little interesting how Austria, home of the centralizing and tyrannical Habsburgs, have adapted to democratic institutions so well. On the other hand: Hungary, who fought so long to preserve their institutions from those same Habsburgs, has embraced centralized arbitrary authoritarianism every chance it has gotten since independence.

Granted Austria had a few issues from 1919 until 1945.

Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 13, 2018, 02:35:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 02:17:14 PM
I find it a little interesting how Austria, home of the centralizing and tyrannical Habsburgs, have adapted to democratic institutions so well. On the other hand: Hungary, who fought so long to preserve their institutions from those same Habsburgs, has embraced centralized arbitrary authoritarianism every chance it has gotten since independence.

^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...

That was different. I am talking about 1919-1940 and 1989-Present.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 02:56:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...

That was different. I am talking about 1919-1940 and 1989-Present.

Yeah, about that.  Hungary wasn't exactly a bastion of democracy and freedom from 1919-1940.  I mean they were allied with Hitler...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 03:00:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 02:56:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...

That was different. I am talking about 1919-1940 and 1989-Present.

Yeah, about that.  Hungary wasn't exactly a bastion of democracy and freedom from 1919-1940.  I mean they were allied with Hitler...

Hungary allied with Hitler in November of 1940, which is why I used 1940 as the real end of their first stint of independence.

And no, they were very much not a bastion of freedom and democracy from 1919-1940. Which is precisely my point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 03:22:21 PM
I don't see any shift of any kind. The same kind of quasi-feudal system kept adopting to changing circumstances.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 03:48:53 PM
Last night scenes are repeating, except the police's patience is much less. The moment some of the crowd gets next to them they spray a wide field of tear gas. If they thought this would calm people down they were mistaken.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 03:56:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 03:22:21 PM
I don't see any shift of any kind. The same kind of quasi-feudal system kept adopting to changing circumstances.

Perhaps. They were just always held up as this beacon for limiting central authority and so many of their greatest national heroes, in the 19th century anyway, were all about championing liberal values. That seems hard to reconcile with how things have gone since the end of the Habsburg Empire...or maybe not I guess if you just view the whole deal through nationalistic terms with the Hungarians just resisting German control rather than any further ideological reflection.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 13, 2018, 04:05:11 PM
Wait what. V's post wasn't sarcastic? Now I'm confused. :unsure:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 04:19:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2018, 03:56:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 13, 2018, 03:22:21 PM
I don't see any shift of any kind. The same kind of quasi-feudal system kept adopting to changing circumstances.

Perhaps. They were just always held up as this beacon for limiting central authority and so many of their greatest national heroes, in the 19th century anyway, were all about championing liberal values. That seems hard to reconcile with how things have gone since the end of the Habsburg Empire...or maybe not I guess if you just view the whole deal through nationalistic terms with the Hungarians just resisting German control rather than any further ideological reflection.

It's... Hungary, like the rest of Eastern Europe, has never had a real, strong middle class. In March of 1848 the replacement for that middle class, the educated urban youth led a revolution that, thanks to Habsburg mismanagement, escalated into the revolutionary war. But there were major disagreements on what to do with it, mainly between the more realists who sought compromise with the Habsburgs after victory, establishing the constitutional liberal monarchy that briefly existed between March and April (when Vienna was in unrest). The others wanted independence. The personified pestilence that was the leader of the country, Kossuth, was with the latter, especially as he envisioned himself leading that country. Rest is history.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 14, 2018, 05:39:20 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/hungary-complains-brexit-will-leave-it-outnumbered-in-eu

QuoteHungary complains Brexit will leave it outnumbered in EU

Foreign minister Péter Szijjártó says Britain brought 'common sense' to debate on migration

Hungary's hardline anti-immigrant government has expressed disappointment at the loss of Britain's "common sense" from the EU immigration debate.

Its foreign minister said the UK leaving was "worst possible scenario for us" because "our preference would have been for Britain to stay in and migrants to stay out".

In an interview with the Guardian in Manchester, where he was opening a new consulate general for the estimated 70,000 Hungarians now living in the north of England, Péter Szijjártó said without the UK, Hungary — "not part of the mainstream in Europe" — will be even more outnumbered than it already is. "With you leaving there will be an imbalance in the political debate about the future of Europe," he said.

"The British always represented positions based on common sense, just like we did," he claimed. "Common sense when it comes to economy and security and you had a very pragmatic approach when it was about the major challenges ahead of the European Union – based on sovereignty, role of national parliaments and so on and so forth
.

"So with you leaving, this political debate about the future of the EU will be unbalanced in an unfavourable way from our perspective."

Szijjártó defended Hungary's decision to build a hard border to stop illegal migrants coming from the Middle East and Africa, and its new law that punishes anyone found to be helping asylum seekers.

"If you look back over the past three and a half years, you will see that illegal migration is definitely the cause of security threats," he said. "No question.

"If 1.5m people are allowed to enter Europe without any sort of control and any sort of check then it definitely gives the opportunity for people with bad will to come. And it definitely offers the opportunity for terrorist organisations to send their troops and activists."

However, many of the terrorists responsible for the worst European attacks in recent years are "homegrown". Chérif Chekatt, who is being hunted by police in connection for the latest attacks in Strasbourg, was born there in 1989. Most of the men behind the Paris attacks of 2015 which left 130 dead were born in Belgium or France, though two were from Iraq. Salman Abedi, the Manchester Arena bomber, was born in Manchester.

Szijjártó said he sympathised with the UK over what he said was its harsh treatment by the EU since the 2016 referendum. "In the beginning at least, I did feel a kind of willingness for revenge on behalf of some bureaucrats in Brussels, to show the British that they have made the worst possible decision of their whole life," he said.

Such bureaucrats, he said, were the same ones who "usually criticise us very heavily and make accusations against Hungary".

European Union lawmakers this year debated whether to sanction Budapest for allegedly undermining the bloc's values on issues such as migration after a report accused Hungary of violating "the fundamental rights of migrants, asylum seekers and refugees".

But Szijjártó insisted it was not hypocritical for Hungary to operate such a harsh immigration policy while also offering political asylum to Nikola Gruevski, the former prime minister of Macedonia, who fled the country last month rather than report to jail to serve a two-and-a-half-year sentence for corruption.

Albanian police said Gruevski "exited Albanian territory on 11 November as a passenger in a car owned by the embassy of Hungary".

But Szijjártó categorically denied that the Hungarian foreign ministry or intelligence service helped him cross the border and insisted the Macedonian fugitive entered Hungary legally: "Gruevski travelled with proper documentation."

Newsflash for Hungary's foreign minister: when UK politicians talk about keeping immigrants out ... that includes you. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 14, 2018, 06:43:52 AM
 :lol:

Szijjarto is one of the most useless human beings ever to hold political office. The last time he had an independent thought was when he met Orban while in high school and decided he wanted to work for that man. His only task and purpose since then has been to jump in front of cameras and play the fool while sinister things are done behind him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 14, 2018, 07:56:13 AM
Predictably the government's public interpretation of the protests is that paid agents of Soros are wreaking havoc during sacred Christmas period to discredit Hungary on the internation scene.

In parallel to this, their propagandists on TVs praise the French yellow-jacket rioters for sticking it up to the Soros-ist French police.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 14, 2018, 07:58:05 AM
German media said that Jobbik had called to support the protests, and that their flags were seen at the protests?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 14, 2018, 08:07:01 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 14, 2018, 07:58:05 AM
German media said that Jobbik had called to support the protests, and that their flags were seen at the protests?

There were 3 party flags, Jobbik, the Socialists, and Parbeszed which is a tiny left-center party barely in Parliament. The Jobbik "call" is being blown out of proportion, their guy said it on live stream in the heat of the altercation with the police, when one of their female activist was being overwhelmed by the brave riot police and pulled behind police line to be arrested.

Hard to see where Jobbik is at the moment and what weight they still punch. A bunch of their radical radicals cededed and formed a party with seemingly the only concern to be His Majesty's Opposition. They are indistinguishable from the governing party and indeed haven't been heard critising them even once.

Meanwhile Jobbik's attempted switch to the center has clearly failed. Nobody non-nationalist really trusts them, and all the rabid dogs have deserted them for Fidesz. So what remains are people who are too bigotted/nationalistic to pull toward the left, but not dumb/rabid enough to support Fidesz, AND hasn't retreated from politics entirely. That's not a lot of people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 14, 2018, 08:10:04 AM
The only larger group in Hungary who can be counted on to be in the frontline of any physical confrontation are the football hooligans (who also happen to be security guards usually). It was thanks to them that similar protests in 2006 escalated rapidly.

Those people are, however, firmly on Fidesz' side and their more organised groups have been employed as muscle by the party on multiple occassions since 2010, where the police could not be counted on to use force, but could be counted on to look the other way while those guys would bar the entrance to the election authority's office or beat up an uppity hippy leader.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2018, 03:18:21 PM
Somewhat bigger demonstration going on tonight. The crowd (a few thousand people) eventually gathered in front of the state TV HQ. The handful of opposition MPs with them entered (after brief uncertainty the riot police let them in) to have their demands read in.

Jobbik and the different leftist parties are there together. Which is a welcome sight. I do not wish to see Jobbik anywhere close to actual power, but that's something to worry about once the current fascist regime has been ousted.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2018, 03:20:14 PM
Needless to say, thousands of protesters crowded up in front of their entrance facing down riot police did NOT make the evening news on the state TV.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 16, 2018, 03:24:41 PM
Glad to see Soros is getting his money's worth.

:Joos
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 16, 2018, 03:25:36 PM
The sign is really overkill on that Jew smiley.  Surely any bonehead can get it from the hair and hat.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2018, 03:38:06 PM
The opposition MPS are effectively locked in a canteen of the TV building - well, not locked, but nobody outside of security guards talk to them, while the crowd outside is growing restless.

12 years ago the (previous) TV HQ marked the start of serious rioting, but as I mentioned, that was fore-fronted by the kind of football hooligans who are not largely on Fidesz payroll.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2018, 04:08:38 PM
MPs are being stalled and threatened with being thrown out by force while the first row of the crowd outside is getting very dangerously squeezed between the police phalanx and the rest of the protesters. The officers in the first row facing them were pleading with them to step back with them yelling in panic that they can't. The live feed which is right there just got interrupted.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 16, 2018, 04:22:44 PM
You'll be pleased to know that no one in Swedish media gives a fuck.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 12:52:22 AM
The opposition MPs pleaded with the crowd not to turn violent, after midnight they dispersed but about a dozen MPs have spent the night in the TV HQ.

They are still there trying to gain entrance to the studio, being blocked by the security guards, who BTW wear firearms. That's pretty unusual.

Preventing them from entering is illegal, of course.

Leading news on state TV this morning wasn't the fact that there's a dozen MPs protesting literally outside the studio, but rather than "pro-migration forces" have held Europe-wide violent demonstrations. No doubt in reference to protests in Belgrade and Vienna (they very much like the Paris protests, as evil Macron sad bad thing about the Great Leader).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 01:40:03 AM
Security guards just tried to remove from the building the leader of the group of MPs. He resisted passively while rest of MPs streamed it live. They have given up for now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 17, 2018, 02:14:27 AM
There were protests in Vienna (about 17k) against the government (1st anniversary on Saturday). But there were no reports of violence. Only complaints by store owners that it had to be on a Christmas shopping Saturday. (The protest march already avoided the main shopping street because of that, but they still complained.)

The only violent protests I read about were right-wingers in Brussels.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 03:09:10 AM
Two of the MPs have been thrown out by force by the securit guards. Altercation starts in the video at here:
https://youtu.be/vt7gXVhwXMw?t=311


The lady streaming will be the second one being thrown out.

The lady herself was the PM candidate of LMP, the suposed green party. The guy IIRC was an ex-Fidesz guy who had enough of corruption, revelaed some of it with evidence which was promptly ignored by both the Fidesz-founder chief prosecutor, and the larger public. After that he joined LMP. LMP have been always highly suspicious as being stooges of Fidesz, and rightly enough these two people on the video have been kicked out of the party shortly after getting into Parliament, for the horrible crime of trying to organise cooperation with the other opposition parties during the election.

Police is still "debating" what to do about the very complex situation of mere security guards using violence on members of parliament doing their job.

This is madness and I hope this footage gets into world media. But I don't expect it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 04:52:25 AM
Police tried to get in but they were refused entry so... they gave up.  :huh:

Later I saw live as a few MPs got into an altercation with the security guards. The MPs wanted to enter a studio room which was "offline". 7-8 guards wrestled 1 guy and 2 female MPs instead of just letting them in.

One of the MPs recently called up the police on live stream and as an MP requested police protection. I'd be surprised if they ever arrive.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 04:57:15 AM
Police is such a farce. I mean of course they serve the dictatorship but so blatantly? There's shitload of them just outside and masses of them close to Parliament, but more than half an hour after a member of Parliament asking for protection and none of them bothers to go up the stairs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 05:21:17 AM
This is surreal.

I am watching one of the young MPs halfway climbed through a locked turnstile, prevented from progressing by a security gorilla. He is calmly trying to get through explaining that he is being restricted in his personal freedom and rights as an MP.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 17, 2018, 05:37:54 AM
Nobody seems to give much fucks about this here. International reporting is dominated by the Brussels anti-immigration protests and the aftermath of the Strasbourg attack. Plus Brexit.

Truth be said, we rarely get much reporting from anything in Eastern Europe unless it's a massive crisis.

Just read up on the "slave law" that has seemingly instigated this. Orban is a fan of Dickensian dystopias, too?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 05:55:08 AM
https://www.facebook.com/dk365/videos/376643486240612/

That's one of the several incidents, guards manhandling one of the MPs, who is fully in his rights to enter whatever part of that building. In fact, it is one of his chief responsibilites to the public to make certain public funds are used properly. But no, because, well, just.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 05:57:05 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 17, 2018, 05:37:54 AM
Nobody seems to give much fucks about this here. International reporting is dominated by the Brussels anti-immigration protests and the aftermath of the Strasbourg attack. Plus Brexit.

Truth be said, we rarely get much reporting from anything in Eastern Europe unless it's a massive crisis.

Just read up on the "slave law" that has seemingly instigated this. Orban is a fan of Dickensian dystopias, too?

Over the last year or so I have noticed multiple times Orban is having more and more trouble hiding how much he is enjoying being an autocratic dick. Little smiles he tries to push down, body language. He is just having too good a time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 17, 2018, 06:04:44 AM
Generally, authoritarians try to at least put on a veneer of "working for the people", though. Even Franco started Spain's public health care. The reason being that many people tend to get riled up more about their personal standards of living than their political freedoms.

That law, if the reporting I'm reading is honest (10 weeks of mandatory overtime with pay delayed up to 3 years) would make Ebenezer Scrooge blush.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 06:11:27 AM
Yes' that's exactly how it works.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on December 17, 2018, 06:26:37 AM
FWIW, made it this morning to top spot on Guardian homepage.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/17/hungary-opposition-mps-attack-viktor-orban-slave-law-during-state-tv-protest

QuoteHungary MPs attack Orbán's 'slave law' during state TV protest

Opposition seeks changes from the government, including an independent judiciary
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 06:57:42 AM
5 times have opposition MPs has talked to the police requesting protection as it is their right. No police officer has arrived.

Who has arrived is a notary allegedly carrying the TV president's message, but she is taking instructions on what to say from the security chief present in the room.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Notary is there because the TV claims the MPs are "tresspassing"  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 07:19:27 AM
BTW news are getting in to the press from people who has already received new contract "offers" from their employers to adapt the 400 hour overtimet hing. The wife of a friend of mine included. Even though the law won't come into effect until 1st of January.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 17, 2018, 07:27:12 AM
Austria recently changed the law (government used a special - legal - process to bypass parliamentary discussion/review) to make it easier to work 60 hours/week for longer periods of time (max. half a year, I think, previously, 48 was the limit, with 40 per week remaining regular max.) After complaints, the government added that these working hours would be "voluntary" and that employees would be in their right to refuse them (because we all know that employer/employee have equal amounts of leverage :rolleyes: ).

Of course cases have now surfaced where people were let go for refusing to work 60 hours, and some employers trying to bake the 60 hours into employment contracts ("Employee declares that they're willing and willing to work 60 hours if business requires."). Government has said they would harshly punish offenders and don't yet see a need to change the law.

It's sparked some of the largest demonstrations in a long time, but it looks like the bottom line is nothing much has really changed in real life. Some jobs who (secretly) worked 60 hours (tourism, hotels, restaurants ...) can now openly do so, while those who previously didn't work 60 hours still don't do so ... but more evaluation is required IMHO.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on December 17, 2018, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 17, 2018, 05:37:54 AM
Nobody seems to give much fucks about this here. International reporting is dominated by the Brussels anti-immigration protests and the aftermath of the Strasbourg attack. Plus Brexit.

Truth be said, we rarely get much reporting from anything in Eastern Europe unless it's a massive crisis.

There was a (short) clip today about the protests during the daily news on national TV.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on December 17, 2018, 11:12:24 AM
I just caught up on this thread. That law sounds like a return to feudalism. Productivity is at record levels in Western- (and even Hungarian-)style countries, and the answer is more working hours? And they can defer the compensation (essentially, an interest-free loan, with seemingly no guarantee of payment in event of the company's bankruptcy) up to 3 years?

Sounds like you got out at a good time, Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 17, 2018, 11:20:14 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 17, 2018, 11:12:24 AM
I just caught up on this thread. That law sounds like a return to feudalism. Productivity is at record levels in Western- (and even Hungarian-)style countries, and the answer is more working hours?

Austrian politicians (and their business clientele) say it's required to remain competitive in aggressive markets. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 11:47:24 AM
This is a disgrace.

The whole day the MPs in the TV HQ kept calling the police emergency line, explaining they are MPs being restricted in their duties and requesting police assistance. NOBODY showed up for 10 hours or more.

Then the TV found a notary, she went in, declared its tresspassing (again, MPs are legally allowed to enter all public buildings). Basically within an hour of the issue of this the police has shown up and are now about the remove the MPs from the building because a notary said so.

Also, an army of police is now around the building, and they are slowly pushing out the politicians and civilians around. First from the yard of the building, now from the street. In anticipation of the announced protest that's due to start soon.

I don't know how big a news it will make in the EU, I expect little, but this is the death of Hungarian democracy and rule of law. This is Erdogan level shit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 11:50:39 AM
The two MPs thrown out in the morning ended up being locked in the courtyard the police didn't let them enter the building and didn't let them leave the yard. The guy started climbing through the fence, after that the officer in charge decided fine you can leave.

One MP in the building got injured, his leg is probably broken but not confirmed yet. They called an ambulance but they were not let in for quite a while, they ended up climbing in via the fence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 11:52:35 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-46595903/hungary-mps-protest-over-slave-law?fbclid=IwAR0bbFlhN8GUnnLf3qiI0L3lH7WS8vf9SY_0uYipmyLUH6_BuVD7wmis0nI
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 17, 2018, 11:54:08 AM
If you outlaw slavery only outlaws will be slaves.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 11:57:19 AM
Injured MP is being taken to hospital on a stretcher.

He was separate from the rest of the group, one floor above the rest. When he started streaming of being hit and put to the ground the rest of the MPs wanted to rush to help but of course were not allowed to by the guards.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 12:12:27 PM
Second MP, a woman this time, also in the ambulance, she is supposedly with just light bruises.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on December 17, 2018, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 17, 2018, 11:54:08 AM
If you outlaw slavery only outlaws will be slaves.

We need a good guy with slaves to stop a bad guy with slaves.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 17, 2018, 02:14:50 PM
Ok, seems our media are picking this up now. I'm seeing the footage posted in several sites. I've just browsed it but it's indeed quite surreal, particularly the stairs part.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on December 17, 2018, 04:09:41 PM
It is unfortunate that the tax dollars of good EU citizens is being wasted propping up the Hungarian authoritarian state.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 17, 2018, 04:50:37 PM
Fuck this shit, nothing is going to happen. A couple of thousand protesters turned up but the MPs inside folded when the police gave their warning, and they left on their own accord. I understand the lack of desire to be manhandled by the police but them being forcefully removed would have been a powerful picture.

Alas, about a 1000 people is now wasting time at the tv hq while another thousand or so march through the city. First they tried to have privately owned pro-Fidesz TVs to read their demands which of course failed then they confused t tour buildings of government media, chanting in front of each before moving on.

Utterly pointless and very very weak after we witnessed today.

I have known this since 2011 and that's why I have left, but Hungarian democracy really died out in the pen today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 17, 2018, 04:55:40 PM
You should have walked away, you should have walked away. Wait, you did. Good man.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2018, 04:53:31 AM
At least we have one good photo to show for it:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--o63RkyC_--/7FGq1FvwM1XEWGLWs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2018, 08:09:26 AM
And to offer some sexist entertainment as well, here is a vice-president of Momentum, one of the most significant outside-Parliament opposition parties. It's hard to gauge what they are actually for apart from progressive liberal "urbanite" stuff (and their own power-gain I guess) but they are young, smart, and seemingly determined. Plus their leader looks like young Orban so what could go wrong.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--zKY5bLIw--/w_1160/7FGJFIX0BENF14qies.jpeg)

She has been in the forefront of Momentum but gained extra publicity when she was tackled from the back by riot police last week, when opening a smoke-generating party toy she literally bought in a toy store:
https://youtu.be/mYZwa6Ly8So
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 18, 2018, 08:31:29 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/17/world/europe/hungary-lawmakers-assaulted.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fworld&action=click&contentCollection=world&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=search&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront

Quote4 Lawmakers Assaulted in Hungary, as Protests Against Orban Continue

BUDAPEST — At least four opposition lawmakers were assaulted on Monday in Hungary, one of whom was hospitalized, after they visited the state media headquarters to request that the broadcasters end their wall-to-wall support for Hungary's far-right prime minister, Viktor Orban.

After a 10-hour standoff in which editors refused to give the legislators airtime, security guards forcibly ejected two of the lawmakers. A third, Laszlo Varju, managed to stay inside with several colleagues, but was injured during a scuffle with security guards later in the day. He was eventually taken to a hospital in an ambulance.

A fourth lawmaker was subsequently injured when she tried to burst through police lines to assist Mr. Varju.

The episode, which followed nearly a week of growing protests against the government's increasingly authoritarian behavior, was a turning point for Hungary under Mr. Orban.

Since entering office in 2010, Mr. Orban has gradually chipped away at the country's democratic framework, reducing judicial independence, taking control of most state and private media and reshaping the electoral system to favor his party, Fidesz.

But under Mr. Orban's watch, the government has largely avoided egregious displays of violence against his political opponents — until this week.

Opposition lawmakers said the assaults had revealed the true nature of the Orban regime.

"This doesn't happen in a democracy — but there is no democracy in Hungary," Mr. Varju said in a telephone interview, after an X-ray revealed no serious damage to his bruised ribs and knees. "That's why we are where we are."

The current wave of protests broke out in Budapest last Wednesday after the Hungarian Parliament, controlled by Fidesz, passed a pair of laws that respectively created a parallel justice system and forced workers to perform hundreds of additional hours of overtime a year.

The near daily demonstrations have since morphed into a catchall expression of dissent against Mr. Orban's government, not least its control over most forms of public discourse, including state broadcasters, which have declined to report on the protests.

The protesters, whose numbers peaked on Sunday at about 15,000, remain small in comparison to Mr. Orban's base: His party was re-elected in April with nearly 50 percent of the vote, after an election that observers said was free but not fair.

Zoltan Kovacs, a government spokesman, said that the current protests have "clearly no popular support" and were being led by "desperate" opposition lawmakers and celebrity activists, rather than ordinary people.

But analysts said the shocking nature of the assaults on the opposition lawmakers, and the unusually strong displays of solidarity among opposition parties during the protests, could signal a new dawn for the opposition.

It might help galvanize demoralized lawmakers and activists, win over undecided voters and help encourage greater international criticism of Mr. Orban, said Csaba Toth, executive director of the Republikon Institute, a Budapest-based political research group.

"I think this is definitely a new level," said Mr. Toth. "Physically assaulting M.P.s is something that has never happened before and can have consequences."

"It will not touch people who only watch Fidesz media, which is a sizable part of the population," Mr. Toth added. "So I do not anticipate a big, quick drop in Fidesz support. But I see a solidifying of support for the opposition."

Gabor Ivanyi, a pastor who joined a protest outside the state media building on Monday night, said that much would depend on whether the protests continue until Christmas or peter out.

"The time has come for fair laws," said Mr. Ivanyi, who performed Mr. Orban's marriage ceremony before falling out with the prime minister.

"We need to end this situation in which we belong to the European Union but we constantly revile it, in which we are NATO allies but we are palling around with Putin," he added, referring to President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia. "This simply can't continue any longer. I think people have come to realize this."

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2018, 08:41:00 AM
A Canadian-Belgian student can be in real trouble. He was arrested during Wendesday's protests and is accused of violence against the police. Sentence can be 2-5 years in prison if the prosecutor's office takes it to court.

I am saying he is in trouble because he could be the perfect government PR tool. He is foreign, he studies on CEU, and to put a cherry on that cake, he is doing his PhD on gender studies.

I am fairly certain his fate is being decided in the PR ministry, not at the prosecutor's
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2018, 08:41:57 AM
BTW he spent the night in a cell with 4 other guys he didn't meet before, all from the same protest. The police accusation against them is literally the same. They "kicked toward the officers and punched with his left hand".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on December 18, 2018, 06:57:54 PM
Listened to an interesting Radio 4 programme called 'George Soros and his Enemies', included quite a bit about current Hungarian politics and the shift to the right.

I'll see if I can find a link to it.

edit:
Link here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001mdd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001mdd)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on December 20, 2018, 03:03:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 18, 2018, 08:41:00 AM
A Canadian-Belgian student can be in real trouble. He was arrested during Wendesday's protests and is accused of violence against the police. Sentence can be 2-5 years in prison if the prosecutor's office takes it to court.

I am saying he is in trouble because he could be the perfect government PR tool. He is foreign, he studies on CEU, and to put a cherry on that cake, he is doing his PhD on gender studies.

I am fairly certain his fate is being decided in the PR ministry, not at the prosecutor's

On the other hand Orban might want to continue to fly under the radar and release the student. At the moment I would imagine that 90% of people are unaware of how bad things are getting in Hungary; a cause célèbre could change that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 21, 2018, 04:26:27 AM
There'll be two protests tonight in Budapest (there have been several this week in the minor cities. Little ones but most of them bigger than usual in those places). One will be a mock of the pro-government "peace marches" they sometimes organise (by taxpayers paying for the buses shipping in tens of thousands from across the country). It's the awesome joke-party the Two-tailed Dog Party doing that one.  The other will be a more "regular" protest which originally aimed to stop the President from signing the Save Law. But he did so yesterday.

Anyways, the Hungarian police has released a helpful diagram on what is and isn't allowed on protests:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--OGVEC9kv--/7FMJeLrdWu5y5i84s.jpeg)


So I guess the main thing is that a protest should not disturb anyone. As long as its meaningless and can be easily ignored, the police will play ball.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 21, 2018, 04:37:23 AM
I like the diagram.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 21, 2018, 04:39:43 AM
Asking protestors not to bring guns, knives or inflammable materials seems rather sensible to me  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2018, 06:18:07 AM
And those with terribly sensitive ears might hear the bullhorn.

What's the treble cleffy-looking thing?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on December 21, 2018, 11:20:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 21, 2018, 04:26:27 AM
There'll be two protests tonight in Budapest (there have been several this week in the minor cities. Little ones but most of them bigger than usual in those places). One will be a mock of the pro-government "peace marches" they sometimes organise (by taxpayers paying for the buses shipping in tens of thousands from across the country). It's the awesome joke-party the Two-tailed Dog Party doing that one.  The other will be a more "regular" protest which originally aimed to stop the President from signing the Save Law. But he did so yesterday.

Anyways, the Hungarian police has released a helpful diagram on what is and isn't allowed on protests:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--OGVEC9kv--/7FMJeLrdWu5y5i84s.jpeg)


So I guess the main thing is that a protest should not disturb anyone. As long as its meaningless and can be easily ignored, the police will play ball.

So high-visibility clothing, such as yellow vests, are still legal.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2019, 05:22:46 AM
During the TV HQ altercations the state TV usually also had a camera around to record usable footage for their purposes. Somebody has leaked a part of that which hasn't been released officially, when 4-5 security guards wrestled with one of the MPs who refused to leave the building.

As I always repeat: he is an MP and according to the law he could just freely enter and inspect whatever the hell he wishes as long as he is not disturbing operations.

I guess you can also see that this guy was originally a miner, as he gives a good fight even just by passively resisting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=169&v=G7w0n4_5Fg8
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 05, 2019, 05:45:14 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2018, 06:18:07 AM
And those with terribly sensitive ears might hear the bullhorn.

What's the treble cleffy-looking thing?

§ is "paragraph" and in many European countries stands for "the laws" because most laws are divided into those and use the symbol. In German, the word "paragraph" is almost used exclusively for law context, a generic paragraph of text would be an "Absatz" (which can also mean heel of a shoe, flight of stairs, or sales, as in numbers, sales markets etc. :P ).

It gets even worse because the main subsections of a law paragraph are called Absatz. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2019, 08:07:54 AM
Two of the MPs who got literally thrown out of the state TV HQ a month ago has gone back now (still there), with two humble request: have somebody take from them the information and material they'd like to ask the TV to cover in the news, and to speak to the Director.

First they were told at the main reception to go to a different building. (they are streaming this live on Facebook). They obidently went, only to have the door of said building shut and locked right in front of their nose. So they went back to the main building, and with some difficulty managed to gain entrance to the main reception.

Right now the TV (Head of Communications to be exact) refuses to take the text and USB stick from them in that reception area, they insist they remove themselves to the aforementioned building where somebody would receive it from them. They have so far refused to be humiliated and they are staying in the reception waiting area.

Meanwhile, just in case, a line of security guards protect the turnstiles leading to the building proper, to make sure the MPs do not gain entry to where they are legally free to roam whenever they want.

What a disgrace.


It is really at the point where the EU leaders should be responsible for their continued toleration of what's going on in Hungary. The ever-growing list of trampling of basic EU principles surely must count for something? Besides increasing the bribes EU officials can receive from the Hungarian government?



Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on January 14, 2019, 08:17:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2019, 08:07:54 AMIt is really at the point where the EU leaders should be responsible for their continued toleration of what's going on in Hungary. The ever-growing list of trampling of basic EU principles surely must count for something? Besides increasing the bribes EU officials can receive from the Hungarian government?

The fault here lies at the feet of the EPP, IMO. PiS left the group back in the day to join the Tories and Poland was repeatedly smacked with procedures, while Orban kept Fidesz in the group, earning thus their "protection" while he kept dismantling Hungary's democratic system, and only earning reprisals when their acts went beyond the pale.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2019, 10:41:14 AM
So after 5 hours or so, the TV's President came to them with the TV cameracrew behind him. He spoke for minutes without stopping for a breath, accused the MPs of violence during the previous scandal a month ago, accused of committing violence at that very moment (of sitting on a couch I guess), protested the "unfair treatment" of his employees by the MPs and left.

It's an incredible humiliation of the official representatives of the electorate.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50244672_1941914555921477_1500228885332099072_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=5c59dcfee5f8755f1081d3542f49984c&oe=5CC34B04)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2019, 12:43:10 PM
The two MPs vowed to stay as long as it takes to have a proper conversation with the director, but TV security is not letting them use the bathroom.

The MPs have called the police a couple of times (once when the director ignored them second on the toilet issue) in both cases the police called them back saying they are right there outside, the MPs can come out to talk to them, but they are not going in...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Oexmelin on January 14, 2019, 01:06:49 PM
Thanks for the reporting Tamas.

Do you have a sense of the general interest in this angle of attack through TV access by the opposition? Does to have a chance to broaden the support for opposition?

What generation are those in position of power appointed by Orban? How old were they in 1989?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2019, 02:48:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 14, 2019, 01:06:49 PM
Thanks for the reporting Tamas.

Do you have a sense of the general interest in this angle of attack through TV access by the opposition? Does to have a chance to broaden the support for opposition?

What generation are those in position of power appointed by Orban? How old were they in 1989?

There has been since the "slave law" a very promising collaboration across the opposition parties. Seeing Jobbik's flag fly along leftist parties' would had been unthinkable even half a year ago. Of course Jobbik is just a shadow of its former self, but still.

So at one hand there is more activity and unity on the opposition than ever before. What is worrying to me, however, is that still the people actually willing to take to the street are not enough. The biggest protests the last month managed maybe 10-20k people. Which is a lot by recent Hungarian standards but hardly something that would corner the regime.

What this concentration on the state TV hopefully will achieve is expose the nature of the system to more and more people. That's where I see the value in this and other opposition actions: by forcing the regime to drop the facade of rule of law and democracy in public (since neither of these actually exist anymore), they hasten the escalation toward open autocracy. That is inevitable regardless, and IMHO it is better if they have to switch to it while they are not fully prepared for it.

As for the generation. There are two distinct groups I think: most of them are in their 40s IIRC, but there are some people in important roles who were active pre-1989.

Most prominent is the Interior Minister who was a high ranked police officer, and quite clearly he was a key player in organised crime in the 1990s while also rising in police hierarchy. But for example some state secretary (under a minister) is an ex-officer of the secret police of the 80s.

In general, the only thing preventing servitors of the communist regime from holding office is their age. This is true to all aspects of society. For example, one of the "journalists" running one of the most rabid pro-government newspapers received a state medal in the late 80s for his "great journalism".

It's a disgusting subject and the price Hungary paid for avoiding bloodshed during the fall of communism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 15, 2019, 01:33:59 AM
Under the pressure of no bathroom breaks for a whole day, last night the two MPs agreed to relocate to this sideways building hosting the archives and the least watch state TV channel, where they were gratiously allowed to use the loo. They spent the night there.

They woke up from their sleep on the couches to this:

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/49845020_1942744119171854_7102289784751521792_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=c9d3f4216442a0f317ff6cd2e70ef4e2&oe=5CC5157B)

The state TV was filming them even in their sleep.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 15, 2019, 05:27:10 AM
This morning they of course were not let back into the main HQ building, they held a pre-announced press conference in front of it (a handful of journos attended. It was a bit of a sad sight but of course only a handful of media are not in direct Fidesz control, and one of their TVs did attend). They called up the police during this press conference, on speaker phone, explaining that they are being prevented from performing their work by being barred from entry. The captain they ended up with told them since there was no violence the police would not deal with it. One of the MPs asked, would you at least send somebody to assess the situation, since I am a citizen reporting a breaking of the law taking place? Officer said no.

Then the MP asked: if say, a train driver was barred from the train he was supposed to drive, by someone unauthorised, would the police not go to the scene and make sure this stops? Officer said yes they would. And that's where it ended really.

Once again, a proof that Party interests overrule the law, even when it comes to the police and members of parliament. This should leave ordinary citizens extremely concerned, but I very much doubt a critical mass of them will care.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 15, 2019, 05:39:38 AM
Is the wider Hungarian public aware of these shenanigans happening? How do Orbanist media frame it?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 15, 2019, 05:58:54 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 15, 2019, 05:39:38 AM
Is the wider Hungarian public aware of these shenanigans happening? How do Orbanist media frame it?

It's hard for me to judge how much awareness there is outside of families with people who use the Internet, although the one remaining truly private national TV does cover them.

The Orbanist media frames it as desperate pro-migration MPs on Soros' payroll turn violent to press their agenda of unlimited immigration. No, I am not exaggerating.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 15, 2019, 10:38:23 AM
On a couple of smaller protests recently a 18 years old girl (in her senior year at high school), Blanka Nagy spoke quite passionetly against the government. She made some fame for herself in Internet circles at least, because of said passion and the rather vulgar language she used. Language I quite agree with given the general situation, but on these protests when there are speeches it is usually opposition MPs and leaders of NGOs so they still keep acting like they are part of a normal society and should act and speak as such.

Showing the pettiness of the regime, a character-murder has started against her. A prominent journalist/TV personality of the regime well known for using similar language as Blanka regularly, called her on national TV a "cretin, pathetic, rotten little prole", while one of their online news site reported that she is "failing 3 classes and barely attends class". The latter is against what she told of herself and she certainly doesn't sound like somebody not attending school, but I guess the truth matters little.

Also another high school (not hers) issued a communique where they condemned her actions and urger her school to discipline her.

I think she will face major issues during her final exams and if I was her I would not put much hope in gaining access to a Hungarian university.

(https://mork.nyugat.hu/Scopes/nyugat2015/var//improxy/NyugatVGAPicture/69/18/691886_nagy_blanka.jpg)


EDIT: in fact, 4 separate government "newspapers" ran the same story about her and her grades. They recon she won't get her diploma.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Oexmelin on January 15, 2019, 10:56:12 AM
She could always attend the Central European Universi... oh right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 15, 2019, 11:23:11 AM
Thought begets heresy. Heresy begets retribution.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 17, 2019, 07:00:15 AM
The Attorney's Office is firmly under Fidesz control, has been for about a decade, so no Fidesz-related crime gets to the prosecution stage unless it's a minor official who managed to fall out of favour.

But sometimes Fidesz potentats would sue journalists for saying stuff about them, and then the judges would set things straight, in a way.

The best are:

The present Director of the state TV can be legally labelled "news manipulator". When he was still a lowly editor (4 years or so) he was blatantly cutting together outrageously fake news coverages. A journo called him out on it and called him that in an article. Editor/Director sued. Judge decided that since the manipulation of the news by him is proven, calling him a news manipulator does not break the law.

The Propaganda Minister (he has some less bombastic title but that's what he does) ran a magnificent property racket with well known organised crime figures when he was mayor of one of the richest districts of Budapest. He sued an opposition politician when called him "a criminal who does business with criminals". The court however declared (two years ago) that a politician should not fear from legal reprecussions when expressing opinions based on reasonable concerns, and because of the articles referenced by the opposition politician, he had good reason to conclude that the Minister was a "criminal who does business with criminals".

1.5 years ago the Supreme Court declared that another opposition politician ha the right under free speech to label the Attorney's Office "Fidesz-controlled". That was his personal opinion, which can only be sanctioned against if it is "smearing and unfounded in facts".


Probably more seriously, and more recently, the president of the Central Bank (an economist believing in some numerical mystic shit - e.g. number 8 had to be removed from all spots of his building including the parking lot) lost a case when he wanted compensation for an opposition guy saying he steals public money. The judge has ruled that "there are facts which seem to support this conclusion" so there is no grounds for compensation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: AnchorClanker on January 19, 2019, 01:00:14 AM
Delightful.

Wouldn't you be better off just exhuming Admiral Horthy and cloning him?  It would certainly be an improvement on Orban, no?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 21, 2019, 07:19:05 AM
Quote from: AnchorClanker on January 19, 2019, 01:00:14 AM
Delightful.

Wouldn't you be better off just exhuming Admiral Horthy and cloning him?  It would certainly be an improvement on Orban, no?

Well I think to the extent they have any idelogical aims in terms of the cultural setup of the country (and they do have extremly little), restoring the Horthy-era is it. They have been renaming parks and squares and streets and whatnot and they have been restoring/recreating statues and such. For example, the statue of Imre Nagy, the communist who ended up leading the 1956 revolutio and was executed for this, was recently sneaked out of the square in front of Parliament (during the middle of the night) to be replaced by whatever was standing there during Horthy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 21, 2019, 07:21:05 AM
Meanwhile the Attorney's Office had a good hard look at the Members of Parliament being beaten up and literally thrown out from the state TV HQ back in December, and concluded tha the MPs were not there in an official capacity (because their aim was to force news coverage on the protests going on outside), therefore the TV did the right thing, and the MPs are now under investigation for disturbing the operations there.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on January 21, 2019, 09:52:34 AM
Thanks for the reporting Tamas. Seems you have about as much a political donnybrook there as we have here in the US.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on January 22, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
The Craziest lies of Hungarian media.

- A selection: https://medium.com/@smalltownhigh/the-craziest-lies-of-hungarian-state-controlled-media-112b5695ff49 (https://medium.com/@smalltownhigh/the-craziest-lies-of-hungarian-state-controlled-media-112b5695ff49)
- Top 100: https://medium.com/@smalltownhigh/the-craziest-lies-of-hungarian-state-controlled-media-the-top-100-list-9d2a82ea6c44 (https://medium.com/@smalltownhigh/the-craziest-lies-of-hungarian-state-controlled-media-the-top-100-list-9d2a82ea6c44)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 22, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
QuoteThe Craziest lies of Hungarian media.

Huh.

QuoteLie #8: Essen (in German: to eat) would rename itself to Fasten (as in "to fast") due to Ramadan

The Hungarian public service media has fallen for a German comedy news sites joke. They claimed that Germany is going through an Islamization, with the latest milestone of Essen renaming itself to Fasten due to the Muslim holiday of Ramadan — a time of fasting in Muslim tradition.

I recall propaganda networks of other countries reporting 'The Onion' articles as stuff the US media is actually reporting to back up their narrative. I really don't think this was a mistake by the Hungarian Ministry for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 22, 2019, 12:08:39 PM
Somebody(s) have been leaking unedited footages from the state TV recently.

One which wouldn't be too informative for you on account of being in Hungarian was really good: a supposed independent political expert/consultant (government mouthpiece) was being interviewed and the reporter actually reminds him that he forgot a line and he should make sure to add it, the independent expert meekly agrees, then they take another take.

Here, however, is from the footage from the December row with the MPs in the TV HQ. The state TV was filming but of course only released heavily cut and edited footage. This is when they threw two of the MPs out. As I mentioned, the Attorney's Office has declared the MPs to be in the wrong and they are currently under investigation for distrupting public service and also as I understand, for causing bodily harm to the security guards (must be strained backs):

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/players/OE0d7LjY-Hp0mRubH.html


Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 22, 2019, 12:11:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
QuoteThe Craziest lies of Hungarian media.

Huh.

QuoteLie #8: Essen (in German: to eat) would rename itself to Fasten (as in "to fast") due to Ramadan

The Hungarian public service media has fallen for a German comedy news sites joke. They claimed that Germany is going through an Islamization, with the latest milestone of Essen renaming itself to Fasten due to the Muslim holiday of Ramadan — a time of fasting in Muslim tradition.

I recall propaganda networks of other countries reporting 'The Onion' articles as stuff the US media is actually reporting to back up their narrative. I really don't think this was a mistake by the Hungarian Ministry for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda.

I thought it was being renamed Fressen because Germans are beasts?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on January 22, 2019, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
QuoteThe Craziest lies of Hungarian media.

Huh.

QuoteLie #8: Essen (in German: to eat) would rename itself to Fasten (as in "to fast") due to Ramadan

The Hungarian public service media has fallen for a German comedy news sites joke. They claimed that Germany is going through an Islamization, with the latest milestone of Essen renaming itself to Fasten due to the Muslim holiday of Ramadan — a time of fasting in Muslim tradition.

I recall propaganda networks of other countries reporting 'The Onion' articles as stuff the US media is actually reporting to back up their narrative. I really don't think this was a mistake by the Hungarian Ministry for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda.

OTOH, Muslims eat like pigs at night during Ramadan so Essen it still makes sense.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 29, 2019, 04:12:08 PM
Courtesy my sister:

https://www.worldtribune.com/they-dont-even-try-hungarys-new-border-fence-called-spectacular-success/?fbclid=IwAR1yfQlatDzWM-3_UWmw-p9vdLs70DKNM6JFCS4nQZdtyodwLHUYPZszwto

QuoteFlashback — 'They don't even try': Hungary's new border fence called 'spectacular success'

Skeptics who believe a border wall will not stop illegals from entering the United States may want to look at what's happening in Hungary.

On the day its border fence was completed, the influx of illegals entering Hungary went down from 6,353 one day to 870 the next. For the remainder of that month, illegal border crossings were steadily below 40 per day, officials said.

"They don't even try," a local border guard told The Daily Caller News Foundation. "We haven't had a Syrian in six months."

Prime Minister Viktor Orban's pledge to stop illegals from flowing into the country appears to be a spectacular success.

Hungary's 96-mile long, 14-foot tall double-line fence includes several layers of razor-wire capable of delivering electric shocks. The barrier features cameras, heat sensors and loudspeakers ready to tell migrants they're about to break Hungarian law if they as much as touch the fence, the April 30 Daily Caller report said.

Nearly every police officer in Hungary is part of a rotation to monitor the border fence at all times. Temporary military bases house the police while they do their rotation.

Additionally, Hungary will train and pay more than 1,000 volunteers to deploy as "border hunters".

Illegals who are caught are arrested and dropped off on the Serbian side of the fence. They don't get a chance to apply for asylum unless they do so at a "transit zone" where they are held in housing containers while their cases get processed, the Daily Caller report said.

In September 2015, thousands of migrants streamed across the border every day as they made their way north to Austria, Germany and Scandinavia.

"It was an invasion," Laszlo Toroczkai, the mayor of Asotthalom, told the Daily Caller. "Illegal immigration is a crime in a normal country. It's not a normal thing to break into a country."

"By the mid-year it was well beyond 100,000 people who came across," said Zoltan Kovacs, a spokesman for the Hungarian government. "You should at least have the ability to handle what's going on."

Kovacs added: "You might not like it, it's not a nice thing, but ... the only way to stop illegal border crossings is [to] first build a fence, man it, equip it, and also, in parallel, build up your capabilities in terms of legal confines, legal circumstances to be able to handle what is coming."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 29, 2019, 04:13:26 PM
Of course Hungary is a terrible shithole and there are many other ways to enter Europe than to go to Hungary....
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 01, 2019, 10:57:08 AM
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/02/01/97001-20190201FILWWW00153-hongrie-une-proche-de-viktor-orban-recoit-la-legion-d-honneur.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/02/01/97001-20190201FILWWW00153-hongrie-une-proche-de-viktor-orban-recoit-la-legion-d-honneur.php)

So Hungarian minister for Youth and Family Katalin Novak got the Légion d'Honneur medal in the French embassy in Budapest.
Macron patching up with Orban?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2019, 05:08:21 PM
One of the many towns outside Budapest which have seen a couple of (small) protests was Baja, a town of 37000 in southern Hungary.

The more prominent/well known persons of the town participating in those protests have been under a smear campaign since, locally.

A few teachers, and a 40 years old guy who runs a Langos place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1ngos). As I understand he is well known in the general area as he sells good food. He  also has been active in the community, and regularly opens up his stand for homeless people when its cold.  He has 5 kids and is a foster parent of 2 others.

Today he found a letter in his home's mailbox warning him to stop campaigning against Fidesz or the town will learn of his homosexuality. So he came out of the closet on a live Facebook stream on their local community page.

In small town Hungary for a person running a business and living a public life that still cannot be very easy. Definitely harder than it should be in a modern society.

The viciousness of how local supporters and functionaries try to nip in the bud any kind of unrest or open opposition to The Party is quite worrying. Either they will succeed in killing off resistance, or we are not very far from violence.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 12, 2019, 05:24:31 AM
I hear the government is now offering new incentives for having babies to stop the demographic decline?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47192612

QuoteHungary tries for baby boom with tax breaks and loan forgiveness

Hungarian women with four children or more will be exempted for life from paying income tax, the prime minister has said, unveiling plans designed to boost the number of babies being born.

It was a way of defending Hungary's future without depending on immigration, Viktor Orban said.

The right-wing nationalist particularly opposes immigration by Muslims.

Hungary's population is falling by 32,000 a year. Women there have fewer children than the EU average.

As part of the measures, young couples will be offered interest-free loans of 10m forint (£27,400; $36,000), to be cancelled once they have three children.

Mr Orban said that "for the West", the answer to falling birth rates in Europe was immigration: "For every missing child, there should be one coming in and then the numbers will be fine.

"Hungarian people think differently," he said. "We do not need numbers. We need Hungarian children."

While Mr Orban was delivering his state of the nation address, the latest demonstrations were being held in Budapest against his government's policies.

About 2,000 people gathered in front of his office, while others blocked one of the main bridges across the Danube river.

Correspondents say the biggest applause during Mr Orban's speech was for his announcement of a seven-point plan to increase the birth rate.

Other points in the government's plan include:

- A pledge to create 21,000 nursery places over the next three years
- An extra $2.5bn to be spent on the country's healthcare system
- Housing subsidies
- State support for those buying seven-seat vehicles

Mr Orban finished his speech with: "Long live Hungary and long live the Hungarians!"

The average number of children a Hungarian woman will have in her lifetime (fertility rate) is 1.45. This puts the country below the EU average of 1.58.

In 2016, France had the highest fertility rate in the EU - 1.92 children per woman - and Spain and Italy had the lowest at 1.34, the EU statistics agency Eurostat reports.

Niger, in West Africa, has the highest fertility rate in the world, with 7.24 children per woman.

Increasing birth rate 'very difficult'

The BBC's Nick Thorpe in Budapest writes:

Critics of the government say its package and pro-family policy so far target well-off families and ignore the Hungarian poor, including an estimated 750,000 Roma (Gypsies). Tax relief does little to help families who pay little tax anyway.

Housing subsidies of €35,000 (£30,666) were offered to families able to invest a similar sum of their own - but few Roma have such savings
.

The nationalist Fidesz government has cut welfare payments and reduced the number of months those made unemployed can claim for.

The population has been falling steadily, from a peak of 10.7 million in 1980, to below 9.7 million today.

About 600,000 Hungarians have moved to western Europe in the past decade - it is impossible to calculate how many will return.

"Increasing the number of births is very difficult, because we have less and less women of child-bearing age," State Secretary for Families Katalin Novak told the BBC. That number is set to fall by 20% in the next decade. "So less and less women need to have more and more babies."

The government's new package, she emphasised, is based on the number of babies couples would actually like to have, and then to encourage them with financial help. The aim is to increase the fertility rate to 2.1 by 2030.

How do other countries help mothers?

Many other countries with relatively low birth rates have introduced extra payments and other benefits for mothers.

Russia's birth rate has been declining for decades: the population fell from 149m in 1991 to 140m in 2018, and the median age has risen from 33 to 39.

So, to help the poorest families, in March 2018 the government announced monthly payments of 10-11,000 roubles (£118-£130; $152-$167) until their first child reached 18 months old. A poor family also gets a one-off payment of 300,000 roubles for each additional child born.

Serbia, one of Hungary's neighbours, has one of the world's fastest-shrinking populations. It has seven million people and a median age of 43.

Last March it announced that new mothers would get a one-off payment worth £740 ($956) for their first child, monthly payments of £74 ($96) for the second child for two years, and further payments for three or more children.

The birth rate in Italy is among Europe's lowest, along with Cyprus and Spain. Italy gives mothers an allowance of €80 per month (£70; $90) for each child born. The poorest families get a monthly allowance of €160 per child.

In Germany more babies were born in 2016 than in any year since 1996. But Germany has also put more incentives in place for couples to have children. Parents have a legal right to a nursery place once their child is one year old.

Germany has a new law, the "Good KiTa Act", granting lower childcare fees for parents who cannot afford the full price, and a fee exemption for parents who receive a child allowance and housing benefits.

Low birth rates are also worrying governments in East Asia.

The marriage rate in South Korea is at its lowest since records began - 5.5 per 1,000 people, compared with 9.2 in 1970 - and very few children are born outside marriage.

According to World Bank data for 2016, just a few countries, including Singapore and Moldova, have a fertility rate as low as South Korea's - 1.2 per woman. The replacement rate - the number needed for a population to remain level - is 2.1.

Fertility rates are also low in China (1.6) and Japan (1.4).


Well, maybe making sure that people of child bearing age and high qualifications don't leave the country in droves would have been a good start ... 10 years ago. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on February 12, 2019, 05:39:24 AM
Because being forced to stay at home to take care of 4+ children is totally worth having no income tax. :rolleyes: :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2019, 05:55:55 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 12, 2019, 05:39:24 AM
Because being forced to stay at home to take care of 4+ children is totally worth having no income tax. :rolleyes: :P

Yeah.


Listen people, no such shit should be taken seriously. They are either just thought of something to look like they have an actual policy (there's EU and local elections this year after all), or they figured a way to abuse these new rules themselves.

But, the government has no overarching policy apart from staying in power and grabbing control of all potential sources of power (which usually means source of money).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2019, 05:58:27 AM
In fact, after CEU, they are now gunning for MTA, which is the Hungarian Science Academy, the main organisation supporting Hungarian researchers since the mid-19th century, when our great reformer, Szecyheni, founded it from his own (vast) income.

It is a source of (limited) power and money and the organisatio resisted the first attempt at gaining direct government control over its funding. So it needs to go.


Also, Mike Pompeo just visited Hungary. I recon they'll want to out-bribe Putin and reclaim the premises.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2019, 07:26:35 AM
Hmm, interesting, if true:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/49fa6525c67f8ffed398d238a89a4110b192c0ce9609505b9c9171bd844f1d91.jpg?w=600&h=1073)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 14, 2019, 06:26:59 AM
What seems to be getting next to no attention so far is Hungary consistently trolling the EU offices into inaction at any given opportunity.

Latest was what should have been a routine new agreement between EU and Switzerland which contained no controversy. But Hungary didn't agree to have EU-ambassadors accept it, they forced it on a debate. The reason for it officially was that one parapgraph talked about migration. In it, basically, both parties congratulated themselves for handling migration so well. Big deal.

Recently Hungary torpedoed an agreement between Arab states and the EU. It also concerned migration although IIRC in the context of promising to curtail illegal one. Nope, veto veto veto.

The serious part of it is that in fact any actual solution to the illegal migration issue will be sabotaged by Hungary, of that I am absolutely certain. They have not given any other reason to exist to their citizens apart from stopping all them colored folks from getting in. Orban even told on his once-a-decade press conference that migration and Soros are "ought to be the leading issues" for the next 20 years.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 14, 2019, 06:35:00 AM
Does Orban expect Soros to last for 20 more years? The man's 88, after all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 14, 2019, 06:38:09 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 14, 2019, 06:35:00 AM
Does Orban expect Soros to last for 20 more years? The man's 88, after all.

There have been some faint attempts already to make his son stick as the heir to the throne of evil. Not only he goes to parties (!) but he apparently at least once did so with a black guy! (!!)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on February 14, 2019, 06:58:45 AM
Is the son also a Jew? Otherwise it'll be a hard sell.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 14, 2019, 07:14:23 AM
 :D I am not sure.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 14, 2019, 11:09:01 AM
QuoteOrban even told on his once-a-decade press conference that migration and Soros are "ought to be the leading issues" for the next 20 years.

What sort of final solution does he envision for the migration and Jew crisis?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 14, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 14, 2019, 11:09:01 AM
QuoteOrban even told on his once-a-decade press conference that migration and Soros are "ought to be the leading issues" for the next 20 years.

What sort of final solution does he envision for the migration and Jew crisis?

well, officially just the vague "defending Hungary", i.e. keeping brown pipple out.

Unofficially, I am pretty sure he prays every night for the flow of migrants to keep increasing. There's nothing he could use more than TV shots of non-whites storming his grandious garden fence on the border.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 18, 2019, 12:14:19 PM
The Hungarian economy has been the assembly-line colony of Germany ever since the 90s, and in general it is heavily linked to the auto industry in general.

This is also the reason, I suspect, while Orban faces no true pushback from Germany or the EU: he has been eroding workers right which obviously won't hurt German carmakers' bottom lines.

It camse as a bit of a surprise that a few weeks ago the trade union at the Audi factory called a strike and after about a week of standoff managed to get higher wages for the workers.


Last week workers of the Suzuki factory wanted to start organising themselves, no doubt seeing the positive example. The Japanese did not muck around though. The leader of the unionising movement, who spent more than a decade at the factory and had seen multiple promotions, were summarily fired for incompetence.

With the parliamentary season restarting and the opposition MPs seemingly growing tired of serving as marionettes in Fidesz' play, decided to capitalise on the above, and when the day at Parliament started, they en-masse left to go to the Suzuki plant. Where they were locked out of the parking lot and could only talk to a PR lady.

I think this is a good idea from them: they need to show what difference it would mean to have them instead of Fidesz.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2019, 07:27:50 AM
Fidesz' EU Parliament election campaign will be about...

DUM DUDUM DUDUM

Soros!

And Juncker:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--4DRAIClY--/w_1160/7Gv0y6lHy4DGKeKes.jpeg)

"you have the right to know, WHAT BRUSSELS IS PLANNING!"

In the small print they explain its more money for "migration aiding organisation" and pre-paid debit cards for all migrants.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on February 21, 2019, 07:39:47 AM
So, what's up with the vice prime minister dude that called the Swedish social insurance minister a "sick creature"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2019, 08:04:32 AM
Quote from: Threviel on February 21, 2019, 07:39:47 AM
So, what's up with the vice prime minister dude that called the Swedish social insurance minister a "sick creature"?

I am not sure, really. The vice PM is a dumb figurehead. Some repressed gay guy who is TOTALLY into hunting. He get into some PR trouble back home when it was revealed one of the oligarchs who regularly wins government contracts financied his "hunting expedition" to Sweden where he was helicoptered above a farmer's elk (?) to shoot it.

So either it's related to that, or the general transgender migrant violent anarchy that Sweden is in government propaganda.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on February 21, 2019, 08:17:09 AM
I believe she criticized the 4-kids and you're tax free, claiming it reaked of the thirties. It is a bit on the harsh side diplomatically to respond with calling another countries ministers sick creatures. But of course, she should have stayed out of Hungarian internal politics.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2019, 08:19:37 AM
Quote from: Threviel on February 21, 2019, 08:17:09 AM
I believe she criticized the 4-kids and you're tax free, claiming it reaked of the thirties. It is a bit on the harsh side diplomatically to respond with calling another countries ministers sick creatures. But of course, she should have stayed out of Hungarian internal politics.

Ah yes.

As I mentioned earlier in general it is a mistake to argue with Fidesz (should write Orban really, the Party is him, and he is the Party) policies and what look like policy actions. This thing is something they thought to be a nice excuse for doing something, before the EU elections. They have absolutely no agenda apart from power.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 21, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
It seems that Orban and Fidesz's days in the EPP are finally numbered, as attacking Juncker in his latest round of propaganda might have broken the camel's back.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 23, 2019, 08:02:36 AM
Hey Tamas, just got this comment about Hungary in a discussion about the Polish and Hungarian human livestock incentives/breeding subsidies (I mentioned that a lot of well educated Hungarians left and have no intention to return at the moment due to the direction the country has taken):

"Country has gone in the right direction.  Life is very good in Hungary.  Hence many are returning.  Many never left.  They just work outside of Hungary"

Dunno what you're complaining about all the time! :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2019, 12:26:06 PM
 :lol:

Ah yes, "they have just left temporarily" was an Orban line from a few years ago.

If anything, the number of emigrants is underestimated. Literally everyone know a handful of people who have left and usually show no intention of returning.

There are exceptions of course.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2019, 10:52:01 AM
So Orban has sent a letter to all citiznes due to the "concerning new plans by Brussels bureaucrats" whom "haven't learned from the terryfing terror attacks of recent years" and still want to "bring more migrants in".

These plans are the Migrantvisa and the Migrantdebitcard. And giving more money to Soros' pro-migration organisations.

There's apparently a leaflet with the mail as well detailing the horrors of these two things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on February 26, 2019, 01:38:16 PM
I talked about this whole migrant thing in 2015 (or 2016?) with a friend recently. I honestly can't notice a relevant change in Germany due to this migrant wave. Not sure where they all live, but apparently not where I live or they are all just well integrated. You hear occasional stories about crimes committed by migrants and statistics about how many found a job and how many were or were not deported, but the society-breaking events that were forecasted never materialized.

That said, the AfD got a major boost from this and is now established as a right-of-the-CDU party in German politics for good. That's definitely a downside. But I wonder who the voters that vote for them would have voted for had we not had this wave of migrants back then. Their core frustrations with being the losers of globalization would not go away after all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2019, 02:35:00 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 26, 2019, 01:38:16 PM
I talked about this whole migrant thing in 2015 (or 2016?) with a friend recently. I honestly can't notice a relevant change in Germany due to this migrant wave. Not sure where they all live, but apparently not where I live or they are all just well integrated. You hear occasional stories about crimes committed by migrants and statistics about how many found a job and how many were or were not deported, but the society-breaking events that were forecasted never materialized.

That said, the AfD got a major boost from this and is now established as a right-of-the-CDU party in German politics for good. That's definitely a downside. But I wonder who the voters that vote for them would have voted for had we not had this wave of migrants back then. Their core frustrations with being the losers of globalization would not go away after all.

I do think that the culture-shock effect of "mass immigration" should not be dismissed off-hand just because it is being capitalised on by the usual suspects, and I am sure it affects both the host culture and the immigrants.

But also I think it is nowhere near as severe as the far-right makes it out to be even in places where it has actually happened (unlike Hungary). The danger of parallel societies must be real but I think it'd be something that would gradually go away on its own if left largely alone.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 26, 2019, 02:52:17 PM
Hungary should be more worried about "mass emigration"

And let's get real here: those immigrants would just pass right on through Hungary to get to a non-shitty country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2019, 02:56:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 26, 2019, 02:52:17 PM
Hungary should be more worried about "mass emigration"

And let's get real here: those immigrants would just pass right on through Hungary to get to a non-shitty country.

Yes. All the while the population is terrified of the idea of all these coloured people entering, the population number is plummeting and ageing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on March 04, 2019, 11:56:28 PM
Hispano-Magyars go home

QuoteVenezuela crisis: Secret escape to anti-migration Hungary

It may come as a surprise to see refugees from the turmoil in Venezuela warmly welcomed in Hungary - by a government widely known to be hostile to immigration and asylum.

About 350 have already arrived on plane tickets funded by the state. Another 750 are on a list, waiting in Caracas, and more may follow.

But there's a catch.

All those who apply must prove Hungarian ancestry, however distant that might be.

Government spokesmen have been at pains to insist that they are genuine Hungarians "coming home", though very few were actually born in Hungary, let alone speak Hungarian.

Who are they?
Most Venezuelans with Hungarian ancestry emigrated in two waves.

The first, after World War Two, included many associated with the Miklos Horthy regime which sided with Nazi Germany. Some had been involved in the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Nazi death camps.

A very different group of around 400 followed after the 1956 failed revolution, including some who had fought the Soviet army on the barricades in Budapest.

The community has since swelled to several thousand. Many young Venezuelans without any Hungarian ancestry were attracted by the vibrant cultural life of the community in Caracas, with its dance and scout groups.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47401440 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47401440)

Two thoughts:
1) I'm glad that the boys from Brazil's low-rent neighbors have a place to take refuge.  :)
2) Don't we all have Hungarian ancestry, thanks to a certain period in their history?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 05, 2019, 07:33:44 AM
While asylum requests in the EU have fallen back to their 2014 (pre-migation risis) levels, Hungarian propaganda continues to maintain an alternative reality.

Just seen an news report/article from the state TV's news site from a few days ago, where their "reporters" allegedly went to the mountains of Bosnia and seen "an endless line of migrants, mostly young men, marching orderely toward the EU's borders".

They drive their point home with a video showing 3 migrants:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ee2047fc61118f5edb104d2f1a12b052118b3048ee28abdc3368ddfa223fb3c1.jpg?w=600&h=533)

Sigh :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 05, 2019, 07:37:53 AM
To be fair though, Orban is such chums with Erdogan, I'd fully expect his Turkish colleague to give him advance warning before he cancels his tribute-for-locking-up-refugees deal with the EU.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Focdn.eu%2Fpulscms-transforms%2F1%2F0BGktkqTURBXy9hNWVhZTgwYjRmMTgyNWQyY2UyMzU2ZDJmOThlYTUxZi5qcGVnkpUDAM0Bks0MS80G6pMFzQMUzQG8&hash=67a7cc193c9d8ccf0b749950ad9b7a52e0a2c0cc)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 12:23:12 PM
Orban is buds with both Maduro and Erdogan eh?

See this is why Hungary is always on the losing side, it is shitty at choosing allies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 05, 2019, 04:58:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2019, 12:23:12 PM

See this is why Hungary is always on the losing side, it is shitty at choosing allies.

No kidding!



BTW the European People's Party (I think that's how Orban's EU party alliance is called) is getting very loud with criticism of Orban after more than enough of their member parties requested that Fidesz be kicked out of the alliance. There'll be a vote on that soon.

But I don't expect them to actually kick him out, they need the votes. They'll be playing all angry and ready for action and somehow delay it until after the elections, at which point they'll sweep it under the rug unless the results mean they don't him any longer.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 06, 2019, 04:35:34 AM
Artistic photo from one of Budapest's outside districts:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--D57H2g0w--/7HF9tfbDf9dxzKb7s.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 06, 2019, 05:30:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 26, 2019, 02:35:00 PM
I do think that the culture-shock effect of "mass immigration" should not be dismissed off-hand just because it is being capitalised on by the usual suspects, and I am sure it affects both the host culture and the immigrants.

But also I think it is nowhere near as severe as the far-right makes it out to be even in places where it has actually happened (unlike Hungary). The danger of parallel societies must be real but I think it'd be something that would gradually go away on its own if left largely alone.

The latter part is very naive, or very optimistic at the very best, based on what is happening here. Parallel societies appeared precisely when left alone, specially in countries without assimilation/integration policies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 06, 2019, 05:36:10 AM
IDK. Read some opinions/news from the US when they had masses of Irish and Italians arriving and try to find a difference between hose worries and the worries you hear from Europe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 06, 2019, 06:17:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 06, 2019, 05:36:10 AM
IDK. Read some opinions/news from the US when they had masses of Irish and Italians arriving and try to find a difference between hose worries and the worries you hear from Europe.

I don't think the past US experience to be relevant for Europe to be honest, maybe for countries used to communautarisme (identity-based communalism). The identity politics exported over here however have considerably worsened things, integration/assimilation-wise.

Italians, as cheap labour, had it rough in France too in the 19th century (try googling Aigues-Mortes pogrom). Peanuts compared to what muslim immigration does nowadays, which could use some questioning, internal reforming and tolerance of the other, so careful with comparisons with the past.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on March 06, 2019, 09:42:48 AM
I don't understand. Are you saying that the Italians had it harder or easier than muslim immigration nowadays?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 06, 2019, 12:03:54 PM
Quote from: Threviel on March 06, 2019, 09:42:48 AM
I don't understand. Are you saying that the Italians had it harder or easier than muslim immigration nowadays?

They got a much rougher treatment, for playing the cheap labour part, yet do no whinge perpetually about past ills.
Italians are more or less integrated or assimilated nowadays.
Contrast that with muslim immigration, at least the leaders of their lobbies/associations, who claim perpetually victim status without questioning themselves.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on March 06, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Ahh, so the Italians had it tougher. That's what I thought and what sounds reasonable. Life in the 19th century was far harsher generally though so it is difficult to compare absolutes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 06, 2019, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: Threviel on March 06, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Ahh, so the Italians had it tougher. That's what I thought and what sounds reasonable. Life in the 19th century was far harsher generally though so it is difficult to compare absolutes.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on March 06, 2019, 01:26:26 PM
I would guess that a major difference today, compared to only about 50 years ago is that we don't really need cheap labour. We need nurses, carpenters,doctors, clerks, qualified factory workers and so on. We don't need peasants or uneducated hard labourers.

The natural integration that previously happened in the work space just isn't there anymore. Just in time for the muslims and africans where the cultural differences are greater than ever.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 07, 2019, 04:45:29 AM
Since Fidesz getting kicked out of the People's Party alliance (is that their English name?) is now a possibility, their media has started the just-in-case preparatory work, with their main newspaper publishing an "anonymus" "editorial" that is "demanding" that Fidesz stops tolerating the liberal cesspool that is their party alliance, and leave.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 07, 2019, 04:53:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 07, 2019, 04:45:29 AM
Since Fidesz getting kicked out of the People's Party alliance (is that their English name?) is now a possibility, their media has started the just-in-case preparatory work, with their main newspaper publishing an "anonymus" "editorial" that is "demanding" that Fidesz stops tolerating the liberal cesspool that is their party alliance, and leave.

I'm sure they'll find other parties like FN or the Lega more to their liking.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 07, 2019, 05:29:28 AM
Yes but for them the key is maintain at least some leverage over the decision-maker and thus influence. The EU grant money must keep flowing or the country is bust, and their continued usage of the EU values as toilet paper must be kept ignored by the EU.

I assume their worry is that if they join the other fascists and end up insignificant, trouble might start.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2019, 05:40:28 AM
The Hungarian Central Bank (led by a number-mysticist idiot who lives with his lover in a premium apartment owned by a big bank CEO, so that's how reliable they are) recently published a study on what the government should do to improve the economy.

One subject was saving the pension system which was under big pressure even before the government closed down the mandatory private arm of it set up to make the future easier.

Apparently their big idea is that the base state pension should be adjusted based on the number of children. Default, so 0% adjusment would be 2 children. If you had more you'd get up to 20% more pension payments. If you had 1 kid you'd get 20% less and if you had none you'd get 40% less.

I think this has been publicised like this to gauge public reactions before enacting it. Or to switch attention from something else they are planning to do.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2019, 04:44:37 AM
Manfred Weber will be travelling to Budapest to pretend giving Orban an ultimatum re. his party alliance membership. This morning all the Soros-Juncker posters on his probably route from the airport have been replaced to avoid him seeing them.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2019, 07:34:28 AM
Guess which way you approach these signs from if you are driving from the airport:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--OxPYq5C5--/w_1160/7HOfQ3neyc4u132mms.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 12, 2019, 04:01:00 PM
Uh, he's eventually going to leave, isn't he?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2019, 05:02:36 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 12, 2019, 04:01:00 PM
Uh, he's eventually going to leave, isn't he?

I guess they figured they had an extra day to do the other one. :) It's Eastern Europe, mate. If it can be done today it can wait until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2019, 05:03:38 AM
Also, country-wide the Juncker-Soros posters will be replaced by posters promoting the pro-family government policies (which are mostly about driving property prices up).

It looks like they have used the most famous meme-couple of the world for that:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--mpjBC7_3--/7HQ2QF2jchpOWMD4s.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 13, 2019, 05:04:45 AM
:D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 18, 2019, 12:05:57 PM
So, Orban's home village ha so far had:

-the football academy that's super-rich because companies can get tax breaks supporting it and that's how they pay tribute to Orban

-the training fields of the academy (they lease the land they are on from Orban and his family IIRC)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F444.hu%2Fassets%2Ffelcsut-01.jpg&hash=354ffc1e28069efae9dcb28d89fb0cf8e6dac6d3)

-the admittedly beautiful but usually near-empty football stadium in Orban's literal backyard

(https://www.magyarfutball.hu/data/upl/2013/10/1380658999_felcs.jpg)

-the small gauge railroad that was built using EU grants and has been massively in the red ever since because who the F would want to small-gauge railroad along a not too pretty neighborhoud between Orban's and a few other villages


(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--IILqByNo--/w_1160/6qvAOSjOvBx5CG6us.jpeg)

But you probably missed out on the sport and conference center:

(https://24.p3k.hu/app/uploads/2018/10/d__yt20181017032.jpg)

Not bad for a village of 1700 inhabitants in the middle of fucking nowhere

And now, to increase the tourist attraction of the village, they are building a small lake. The island of the middle of it is already done, they just need water:

(https://cdn5.rtl.hu/67/87/felcsut-mesterseges-sziget-csonakazoto-unios-tamogatas_image_b5351f31f28fb127d5239dccc242_16-9)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 20, 2019, 01:53:51 PM
Fidesz suspended from the EPP.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 20, 2019, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 20, 2019, 01:53:51 PM
Fidesz suspended from the EPP.

Great success!

No, I am not kidding, that is how the government media (i.e. 98% of all Hungarian media) are reporting this. Fidesz members voted FOR suspension once they saw where things were headed, so now the narrative is that this is exactly what Orban wanted all along.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2019, 03:50:44 PM
So when they joined the EPP in the first place it must have been a Soros-Junker plot?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 24, 2019, 07:33:19 AM
So after about a week (before the EPP gathering) of drastically cutting back on anti-foreigner bullshit, and freshly achieving the victory of suspension, Orban is now back in force: now "Brussels" isn't only to blame for plans of mass migration and a program of Islamising Europe, they also "deliberately make the Hungarian people" overpay on utilities.

If this BS doesn't subside after the European elections, I'll start thinking he is preparing a Hungarian exit from the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on March 24, 2019, 08:36:58 AM
That's the EU for you; they are a kind of latter-day Mordor  :P

Forcing poor Hungary to make 800m of contributions and only giving 4bn back.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on March 24, 2019, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 24, 2019, 07:33:19 AM
If this BS doesn't subside after the European elections, I'll start thinking he is preparing a Hungarian exit from the EU.

Dare we hope?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 24, 2019, 01:17:56 PM
Utilities as in water and electricity?  What does JunkerSoros have  to do with that?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 24, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 24, 2019, 01:17:56 PM
Utilities as in water and electricity?  What does JunkerSoros have  to do with that?

Well it was the key point of the 2014 election campaign. I mean the government forcing companies to lower prices and also forcing them to showcase this fact on all bills.

The iron there, BTW, is that gas (with which most homes are heated) is not cheap at all, comparatively, especially during those days. Primary reason for that has been the middle-man company installed between the gas imports and the buyers in Hungary by the state - a middle-man company with lots of ties to Orban and his circle.

So this is also a reach back to a familiar election-winning narrative, so might be just a half-desperate run out of ideas.

But on the long run, a "showdown" with the EU is inevitable. Orban has been gradually but constantly escalating things since 2002. His only reason de e'tre politically since then has been a siege mentality instilled into his followers then later the country. He cannot de-escalate or afford to run out of enemies because then the reason to put up with his numerous shits (of which most of his voters are well aware but put up with) will cease and he'll be out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 24, 2019, 03:55:31 PM
Thanks, but I still don't understand what that has to do with the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 24, 2019, 04:11:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 24, 2019, 03:55:31 PM
Thanks, but I still don't understand what that has to do with the EU.

Precisely.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 24, 2019, 06:37:15 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 24, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
But on the long run, a "showdown" with the EU is inevitable. Orban has been gradually but constantly escalating things since 2002. His only reason de e'tre politically since then has been a siege mentality instilled into his followers then later the country. He cannot de-escalate or afford to run out of enemies because then the reason to put up with his numerous shits (of which most of his voters are well aware but put up with) will cease and he'll be out.

He sounds like a cult leader :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2019, 11:55:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2019, 06:37:15 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 24, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
But on the long run, a "showdown" with the EU is inevitable. Orban has been gradually but constantly escalating things since 2002. His only reason de e'tre politically since then has been a siege mentality instilled into his followers then later the country. He cannot de-escalate or afford to run out of enemies because then the reason to put up with his numerous shits (of which most of his voters are well aware but put up with) will cease and he'll be out.

He sounds like a cult leader :hmm:

Well, yes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2019, 11:58:13 AM
Today the Foreign Minister (I shudder every time when I realise that clown is Hungary's foreign minister) rose in Parliament to update everyone on Teh Dangers.

Apparently, "Brussels" now wants the UN Migration Accord (some recently accepted wish-washy nothing) be "mandatory for all member states", therefore the "disputes with Brussels over migration are far from over" in fact "a new battle is about to begin, against secret Brusselian plans for migration".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 10:27:36 AM
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--GC9jFpEY--/w_1160/7BQA1Ovx3GKnWGLYs.jpeg)

This is "Soros's Budapest HQ" where "they hold Jewish Purim parties", according to some pro-government "journalist".

It is a fairly run-down pub/club called Aurora in a fairly run-down district of Budapest. As the name suggests it is a gathering place of the far-left\communist\punk youth.

I never even heard about it before the district's Fidesz-led leadership started a campaign against them to have them closed. But since then my respect has grown for them, even though I am pretty sure their politics isn't really for me. They have been fighting and the local powers have not found a legal way to get rid of them.

I especially liked their clientele when they recently made a stand.

Lately, there's a new and "ambitious" little group of right-wing "bloggers" a few bald-headed footbal hooligans, who go to opposition events and stream live as they try to bully the event into silence. They have not resorted to actual violence, but there was plenty of implying it. All their targets handled it with dignity and bravery but of course you have to be careful as who knows whom the police would support/help.

Anyways, 3 of these skinheads went one night to this Aurora pub because there was some kind of a political discussion event, and they streamed live as usual. However, they miscalculated, because they ended up overnumbered by the pub's clientele who stopped them outside the venue, in a live-streamed exchange of mild and not-so-mild insults. I saw the recording and I must say it was satisfying to see and hear those fascists noticably cowed by the realisation that their supposed victims are quite ready to fight back. They ended up retreating. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 26, 2019, 10:36:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 10:27:36 AMIt is a fairly run-down pub/club called Aurora in a fairly run-down district of Budapest. As the name suggests it is a gathering place of the far-left\communist\punk youth.

How old are you? 50 something?  :lol: That looks like your run of the mill hippie/alternative/hipster hangout that you find in almost any big city in the Western world.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 26, 2019, 10:36:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 10:27:36 AMIt is a fairly run-down pub/club called Aurora in a fairly run-down district of Budapest. As the name suggests it is a gathering place of the far-left\communist\punk youth.

How old are you? 50 something?  :lol: That looks like your run of the mill hippie/alternative/hipster hangout that you find in almost any big city in the Western world.


:rolleyes: I know. FFS Budapest has about 300 of them. But the Aurora IS a gathering place of far-leftists.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 26, 2019, 11:36:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 26, 2019, 10:36:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 10:27:36 AMIt is a fairly run-down pub/club called Aurora in a fairly run-down district of Budapest. As the name suggests it is a gathering place of the far-left\communist\punk youth.

How old are you? 50 something?  :lol: That looks like your run of the mill hippie/alternative/hipster hangout that you find in almost any big city in the Western world.

:rolleyes: I know. FFS Budapest has about 300 of them. But the Aurora IS a gathering place of far-leftists.

Then you should have shown a picture that doesn't make it look like a place that serves overpriced vegan smoothies while you surf the web on a Mac and discuss your plans about a new app.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
But the contrast between government propaganda of it being a vile HQ of evil activity vs. the reality of communist hipsters putting their bare feet on chairs :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 26, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 26, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
But the contrast between government propaganda of it being a vile HQ of evil activity vs. the reality of communist hipsters putting their bare feet on chairs :P

They already ride bikes and I'm sure those guys are vegan, and non Hungarian food is served there, they don't need to be commies on top of all that. I'd even say that it would make them look quite passè, tbh.  :P

Didn't some Polish minister actually once used "bike riding vegan" as an insult against westerners, or somesuch?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 26, 2019, 01:11:15 PM
They only ride donkey carts in Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 26, 2019, 04:58:03 PM
If they were communists they would be sitting together forming committees and practicing their haranguing.  Instead they're sitting alone looking at Snapchat so they must be bike riding vegans..
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 26, 2019, 05:04:50 PM
"Jewish Purim parties"  Does Hungary have any laws against Nazism?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 27, 2019, 04:55:41 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 26, 2019, 05:04:50 PM
"Jewish Purim parties"  Does Hungary have any laws against Nazism?

Plenty, but nowadays laws don't really apply to those in service of the Party.


Funnily enough, I've noticed that lately government propagandists are trying to lach onto the anti-semitism rows of the Western left and smear they opponents with it, the same way the utilised the Soros-mania.

They have an easy job accusing Jobbik with that of course, since Jobbik WAS the nazi party until Fidesz has overtaken them from the right, but sounds quite ridiculous when they (weakly) try it on the Socialists.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2019, 08:48:01 AM
The latest thing that would have been a major scandal in a normal country but has pewtered out without making much of a dent in Hungary:

Janos Pocs is an up-and-coming Fidesz guy, an MP and mayor of a mid-sized Hungarian city. He has already been known as a colorful personality. He made big noise a year or two ago domestically, when he shared a photo he received from fans in Transylvania: it was a slaughtered pig, freshly burned, with the text "he was the Soros!" burned on it (its Hungarian word-play: it can also be read as "it was his turn" but this happened in the most fervent time for the anti-Soros campaign so nobody was fooled).

Then there was also a video where he was piss drunk on some party and was coming at some female with some extremely lame lines.


However this time, a 2008 video has been leaked, showing him literally forcing a gypsy employee of his (as mayor) into a furnace.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--HISNhhjH--/h_652,w_1160/7HedROp57RENUyHQs.jpeg)

On the video the gypsy guy is saying "come on let me out" and "you kept telling us you'd burn all the gypsies who don't work here, so now you are just testing it!" etc.

The prank is finished with Pocs lighting a paper and closing the furnace door.

The victim of the "prank" has died since the incident (not in the furnace) so the only version is Pocs' who claims it was a joke that the victim wanted to film. Which is hard to believe.
He said the guy was his friend and "he wishes he could do it again".


In any case, there will be clearly no reprecussions for him over this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2019, 11:19:53 AM
Another story, this time straight out of some bad Scorcese movie I guess.


Antal Rogan is the propaganda minister nowadays, but he has been a prominent Fidesz politican for at least a decade. He made his name -and secret fortune- while being mayor of one of the richest Budapest districts. I could write columns about the shady property deals he presided over, but I am sure you can imagine. He is also behind the business of selling Hungarian (and thus EU) residence as bonds, whereas the Hungarian state loses a lot of money as it sells a bond on lucrative terms, the customer gets the EU residence, and the private middlemen appointed by the state (and linked to this guy) makes a killing on fees and profits netted from both the state and the client.

One thing that can be said is that his wife has certainly put all the money toward realising her apparent childhood dreams.

Mrs. Rogan pre-stolen wealth:

(https://hirzona24.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2591320_6d527204c063191c1df80902d276fa96_wm.jpg)


Mrs. Rogan post-stolen wealth (with her ex-beauty queen BFF on her right):
(https://kep.index.hu/1/0/2032/20323/203231/20323188_5c13c06bd305c83d69d03c079c69bc34_wm.jpg)

And she has been landing gigs like modelling clothes, organising and hosting an "inspiring women" annual event, and lately, by being the model for sportswear adverts:
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--415o0IXy--/w_1160/7HtmMC2vDPaJkfVVs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2019, 08:58:38 PM
Damn, that's some really impressive surgery.  :huh:

Works better for me than another fodbal pitch in the middle of nowhere.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 01, 2019, 09:39:23 PM
I am just glad all that dysfunction and corruption made somebody happy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 02, 2019, 05:23:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 26, 2019, 01:11:15 PM
They only ride donkey carts in Poland.

Specist Poland!!!  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2019, 07:14:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2019, 08:58:38 PMDamn, that's some really impressive surgery.  :huh:

I guess that Hungarian plastic surgeons have quite the experience in the field, what with the massive porn industry and that.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on April 02, 2019, 10:36:13 AM
Isn't that more the work of a make-up artist, a hairdresser (especially) and an incompetent porn industry surgeon?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2019, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: Threviel on April 02, 2019, 10:36:13 AM
Isn't that more the work of a make-up artist, a hairdresser (especially) and an incompetent porn industry surgeon?

It all adds up, I assume.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on April 02, 2019, 10:47:05 AM
A quick googling indicates that she was attractive before and that the first picture is just one especially bad. Tamas, use you google-fu and tell me if that's true.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2019, 10:59:51 AM
well, once she sorted her hair out I found her okay. I mean, she was attractive in a regular sort of way. For the record I really dislike her current plastic look.

One thing that was always horrible with her though are the empty hollow eyes. I don't mean the colour, that's rather nice, but the emptiness.

Here is a more favourable pre-transformation pic:

(https://www.startlap.hu/uploads/2019/04/rogan-cecilia-720x415.jpg)


pre-transformation post-makeup use:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--YLPFSxAU--/w_1160/6pGO4xqVO58pKeDls.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2019, 11:07:41 AM
Look she was taking the money stolen from Budapest residents and using it to make herself happy. SHE WAS DOING IT FOR HER, NOT FOR YOU. Geez guys. Try to have some class when discussing the fruits of corruption.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on April 02, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
If I want to be a creepy sexist misogynist I'll damn well be a creepy sexist misogynist. FFS.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2019, 02:41:13 PM
Quote from: Threviel on April 02, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
If I want to be a creepy sexist misogynist I'll damn well be a creepy sexist misogynist. FFS.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2019, 04:46:10 PM
Damn SJWs and their plastic surgery shame shaming.

She was much cuter pre-op than that first photo made it seem.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 03, 2019, 01:55:24 AM
At least she is getting foreigners more interested in Hungary's plight  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 05, 2019, 06:36:21 AM
Mini-scandal of mini-countries:

An ex-footballer Slovakian MP (in Slovakia) introduced a bill calling for the ban of public playing and singing of foreign anthems without officials of the foreign country in question being present.
Everyone there is calling it "Lex DAC" after the football team of Dunaszerdahely, which is one of the several towns still with a Hungarian identity/majority. They receive fans from Hungary who always sing the Hungarian anthem before games. Which of course would now be banned.

The bill was accepted by parliament. One of the parties voting yes was the centrist-liberal joint Hungarian-Slovakian (so, pro-coexisting) party called Hid. They didn't realise what they were voting yes on (IIRC they are members of the governing coalition).  :lol:

They have now publicly apologised and have requested the President of Slovakia to send the bill back and not sign it into law. He is probably going to oblige but has "requested the members of the coalition to at least read what they cast their votes on, but preferably to also take part in the preparation of bills) :face:

The bill will pass even without Hid's support, though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 05, 2019, 09:43:17 AM
Very unique: the latest scare, timed for the start of the EU election camaign is:

A MIGRANT CARAVAN!

Apparently a few hundred refugees at Saloniki have been gathering to start north on the Balkans. Today it was even BREAKING NEWS on Hungarian state TV as the Greek police used tear gas against them.

I've checked out the news-buildup over this week. You guys wouldn't believe it. It was handled like 9/11 shown live, as their local correspondent showed the DRAMATIC footage of the CARAVAN around him, which meant a few dozen BROWN people scattered around a big clearing, plus a few tents. DANGER!


This is so pathetic. My poor homeland. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 05, 2019, 10:58:39 AM
As illustration, today's news coverage from the massive caravan's battle with the Greek Police. The Hungarian government is "ready to make the necessary steps and strengthen the border to prevent the caravan from entering":

https://youtu.be/DwQ4g9TtOM0?t=42
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 05, 2019, 11:02:28 AM
Whatever happened to the world's slowest caravan going through Mexico? It seemed to vanish into thin air once the election happened.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 05, 2019, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 05, 2019, 11:02:28 AM
Whatever happened to the world's slowest caravan going through Mexico? It seemed to vanish into thin air once the election happened.

It's got VINDICATED
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2019, 09:53:56 AM
https://index.hu/english/2019/04/11/porgy_and_bess_hungary_all_black_cast_statement_african_heritage/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on April 11, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 11, 2019, 09:53:56 AM
https://index.hu/english/2019/04/11/porgy_and_bess_hungary_all_black_cast_statement_african_heritage/

:rolleyes:

Quote"I think that as an artist, I have a right to practice and interpret this culture. This is what makes it possible that this cultural heritage can be explored and enjoyed at a live performance in such a country as well that is mostly populated by white people. I believe that forbidding me from performing in a piece just because I'm white is negative discrimination and racism," Anikó Bakonyi continues her answer, adding that all of the artists involved gave the best of their knowledge, and they all have the necessary musical training that enables them to authentically perform the piece. "These days, there is oversensitivity in world politics - so much that now we are discriminated against because we happen to be white. We went from one extreme to the other. In the 21st century, we no longer only know what's exactly happening next door, but what's exactly happening on the next continent: such a constant stream of information makes it impossible not to absorb everything into our identities."

Odd statement regarding an opera from 1935.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 11, 2019, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 11, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
Odd statement regarding an opera from 1935.

Well the Hungarian State does often act like the 1930s are "these days".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2019, 04:29:07 AM
It is becoming quite impressive how the governing party manages to continue lowering the bar of their moral stance.

The Royal Family, the Royal Son-in-law in particular, have been enthusiastically grabbing castles and mansions around the country. It would appear that their latest target is the very lucratively placed and massive (a park, several building etc) property at Fot, just outside of Budapest.

(https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/1/0/2739/27393/273933/27393309_6ded5a8a32996650d09ae64390772acf_wm.jpg)

This building complex happens to be the principal state orphanage of the country. AFAIK hundreds of abandoned/oprhaned children live there in what are probably the best circumstances available in such institutions in the country, including 50-60 disabled or otherwise heavily dependent on care orphans.

They have to go now, as the orphanage is getting closed. There isn't any real, believeable, reason for it, so everyone is certain it is because Orban Wills It. 

The relocation of the children appears to be in shambles. They will be divided all along the country, mostly to be sent to orphanages that barely if at all, have the capacity, Two of the bigger ones have new wings under construction to house the incoming kids. The special need ones in particular are problematic as there will be only a couple of places left in the country who can deal with them. A third location that has been mentioned is not accessible at all for disabled people, and while they don't know if they will receive any children, they hope the workers of the Fot orphanage will also decide to relocate there as they have no skilled personnel to take care of them.

Fot is also housing the child refugees/asylum seekers. For them a new building at a different location has also been designated, but let's just say it is not in tip-top shape as of yet:
(https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/1/0/2690/26907/269071/26907175_02e2e437b706fed2dc6098572433eb9e_wm.jpg)
(https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/1/0/2690/26907/269071/26907175_02e2e437b706fed2dc6098572433eb9e_wm.jpg)

Overall nobody really knows anything on where the children will end up, just a couple of months before the Fot institution closes.

The government's official plan is to refurbish the mansion afterwards and use it for cultural functions. The usual modus operandi is to rebuild/modernise these places from taxpayers money and then give them practically free to one of the oligarchs.

The main pro-government newspaper had this to say about the whole thing: "The airport is close by, the place is exclusive, it getting a new lease of life is good for everyone. Especially for the inhabitants of Fot, who will receive a beautiful park and a splendid cultural life".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2019, 05:40:02 AM
Oh and BTW if you see Hungarian government politicians and their media's take on the Notre Dame fire, it was of course a direct consequence of France losing its way and embracing secular liberal filth, and French muslims are dancing in the streets in jubilation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2019, 08:59:19 AM
Our favourite politician-wife returns!


HVG is a weekly newspaper with a long history in Hungary (its abbrevation refers to Weekly World Economy). Ever since their launch in 1979, their newest issue would be advertised by posters on the streets of Budapest (on these man-height round advertising stands that Budapest is full off).

This was the case even while the company controlling those advertising surfaces was (and has been) in the hands of various Orbanist oligarchs (the paper itself is quite left-ish).

Not anymore. Out of the blue, the advertising company cancelled their contract with HVG.

Perhaps not unrelatedly, this is what they were supposed to poster out:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--UXF7oApo--/w_1160/7IIpIbzM4LW7AK5qs.jpeg)

The title is a Hungarian wordplay merging "luck" with "housewife", the subtitle says government-wives under rain of public funds, and of course concerns the stellar rise of all companies these ladies have started or joined in the last few years.

Wrong choice of front page I guess!

It is interesting to note, that before the rapid, unexpected, and shocking closure of the daily paper Nepszabadsag a few years ago (most popular and only clearly profitable newspaper at the time. Very center-left. Basically if The Guardian was closed overnight in the UK), the last big story they ran was the private helicoptering of this lady and his husband.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 02, 2019, 06:08:29 AM
Read an excellent article from TGM. He is something of a poor man's Zizek I guess. An old idealist communist philosopher/journalist.

But even though I deeply disagree with him idelogically, he is very smart and has a great insight if you learn how to compensate for his screwed up communist lense that he uses to look on things.

The main body of the article laments on the failure of the plutocratic-liberal democratic experiment in Hungary and the wider region, which of course is just the newest failure of such attempts following 1848, 1918, 1956 ('68 in other places), and now 1989.

He then switches over to explain how nihilistic and cynical Hungarian (and other regional) societies have become.

The ending however I especially liked and quickly translated it:

QuoteAll concepts are false, all suspicions are valid.

This nihilism was born by disappoitnment, the disappointment is justified, therefore arguing against the nihilism is hard.

If someone is upset about the current system's tyranny, he gets the reply of tyranny being present everywhere everytime, that hiearchy and autocracy is universal and eternal, albeit of course disgusting.

Power is an axiom, says the half-colonial half-periferial public opinion. Only way out from under it is to deny society, declare politics fake, art illusion, and go to some remote place, some not understood, unknown, unimportant place, where our existence is irrelevant, where we have no burdens of a citizen, where we can finally be what we always wanted to be: migrants.

Voluntary exile is East Europeans' only remaining utopia: xenophobia and seeking refuge in an alien land - both at once!

Our anti-European and "anti-migration" system is maintained by European handouts, western industry, and westward emigration, the Chinese and Arabic buyout of properties, and immigration. All the while whole districts of cities will empty out (like how it has already happeend in Romania), and obviously will be filled by aliens.
There is onle one way to maintain such a controversy: refuse to talk about it.

The dream of freedom -once again- has become a junkyard, both physically and intellectually.

The denied and not understood catastrophe has long been blamed on various, usually irrelevant persons and fictional events. The hidden crime officially doesn't even exist, but the scapegoats have long been found.

Still, the aimless paranoia does show that everyone is aware, how horrible our most recent history is. How can they blame freedom for the confiscation of liberty?

It's grotesque and bizzare, but not inexplicable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on May 02, 2019, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 02, 2019, 06:08:29 AM
Quoteand go to some remote place, some not understood, unknown, unimportant place,

But what if you don't like beets? :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on May 13, 2019, 01:43:16 PM
Victor Orban is visiting the White House today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 13, 2019, 01:51:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2019, 01:43:16 PM
Victor Orban is visiting the White House today.

God, the jizz everywhere will be disgusting.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 02:25:31 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2019, 01:43:16 PM
Victor Orban is visiting the White House today.

I hope the vengeful ghost in the Lincoln Bedroom takes him out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 07:43:13 AM
Jobbik, the old far-right party has been made irrelevant by Fidesz' switch to the same grounds, which has been made worse -at least for now- by Jobbik's attempt to compensate by going more moderate.

Their radical wing has seceded some time ago and has formed their own party, which is being relentlessly promoted by Fidesz - they are the only "opposition" party given media time by the state media, and their party events and such far outclass Jobbik's. Jobbik is struggling for money as the Election Authority is stripping them of it at every excuse they get, and the new formation, Mi Hazank (Our Homeland) is clearly awash in it.

Their latest action to be His Majesty's Opposition on the Right Edge is to form their own paramilitary group, a sort of successor to Jobbik's old (now disbanded) formation. Jobbik used to have funny waiter-like uniforms, these guys are more serious:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--fe4jWxBi--/w_1160/7IyliSCZjM5GWWOOs.jpeg)

They are the Nemzeti Legio (National Legion) led by a guy who serverd in the French Foreign one.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 09:40:36 AM
The next government property-project is to relocate the National Library from the old palace complex in Buda (where Orban's office has relocated) to an out of use barracks.

Sure a nice building they are getting their hands on:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--N4WzOsxE--/w_1160/79dC52Kknn2NGWAxs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 16, 2019, 04:22:06 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpolgarportal.hu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F03%2Fkover_laszlo-magyar-hirlap.jpg&hash=d99e97dc41fd73ec4b5df3047e86ab61e28df63e)

Laszlo Kover, whom I used to refer as chairman of the house (of parliament) but turns out his official title in English is Speaker of the National Assembly, is really going strong in the finish-line of the EU election campaign (of which will be a landslide for Fidesz regardless of him).

Earlier he had a declaration he has actually backtracked from since, lamenting that the mislead European public is making a grave error thinking climate change is the prime danger, when in fact it is migration.

And now on some public event he has declared that "normal homosexuals" realise "they are not equal" to heterosexuals, therefore they do not try to push through horrific things like gay marriage or gay couple being allowed to adopt.

In fact on adoption rights he compared the idea (of gay couples adopting) to legalising pedophilia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on May 16, 2019, 06:52:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 07:43:13 AM


(http://dudesincamo)

They are the Nemzeti Legio (National Legion) led by a guy who serverd in the French Foreign one.

Good to see the US Army's old camo still has a market...

It feels hard to blame the UK for wanting out of the EU if there seems to be no desire for Hungary getting kicked out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 16, 2019, 08:19:41 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 16, 2019, 06:52:50 AM


It feels hard to blame the UK for wanting out of the EU if there seems to be no desire for Hungary getting kicked out.

OTOH, both issues are not linked at all.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 16, 2019, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 16, 2019, 06:52:50 AM
It feels hard to blame the UK for wanting out of the EU if there seems to be no desire for Hungary getting kicked out.
Britain has made considerable steps into a populist right authoritarian direction based on English nationalism as well. Let's hope it does not continue going in that direction.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2019, 04:03:03 AM
Following an actually fairly successful (in terms of attendants) school-strike protest as part of the coordinated European effort last week, and the European success of greens (in Hungary there's one nominally green party but they are inept and financed by the son of a rabid Orbanist oligarch, so they got destroyed), the Hungarian government seems to be really leaning into climate change denial with steadily increasing fervour these last few days.

It is mainly portrayed now as the effort of Soros to switch attention from The Real Issue (mass migration of unwashed coloureds), and as a strong economic lobby for profit, like evil EU's effort to destroy the car industry for... profit.

I wonder what their poor puppet President of Hungary is going to do. His constitutional role would be to guard against governmental excess but he is just a signature-signing droid, and has been using climate concerns to pretend he is working on something. Going to have to find something else I guess.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on May 29, 2019, 04:06:38 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 16, 2019, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 16, 2019, 06:52:50 AM
It feels hard to blame the UK for wanting out of the EU if there seems to be no desire for Hungary getting kicked out.
Britain has made considerable steps into a populist right authoritarian direction based on English nationalism as well. Let's hope it does not continue going in that direction.

So what you are saying is, wherever Tamas goes becomes a right-wing populist shithole? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2019, 05:25:01 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 29, 2019, 04:06:38 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 16, 2019, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 16, 2019, 06:52:50 AM
It feels hard to blame the UK for wanting out of the EU if there seems to be no desire for Hungary getting kicked out.
Britain has made considerable steps into a populist right authoritarian direction based on English nationalism as well. Let's hope it does not continue going in that direction.

So what you are saying is, wherever Tamas goes becomes a right-wing populist shithole? :P

I have moved to England looking for a stable and predictable political situation. That sounds so funny now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 29, 2019, 06:02:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 29, 2019, 05:25:01 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 29, 2019, 04:06:38 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 16, 2019, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 16, 2019, 06:52:50 AM
It feels hard to blame the UK for wanting out of the EU if there seems to be no desire for Hungary getting kicked out.
Britain has made considerable steps into a populist right authoritarian direction based on English nationalism as well. Let's hope it does not continue going in that direction.

So what you are saying is, wherever Tamas goes becomes a right-wing populist shithole? :P

I have moved to England looking for a stable and predictable political situation. That sounds so funny now.

:lmfao:

You had it coming. You were warned and advised instead to go to Austria, closer to your Vaterland and where Hungarians are not seen as a threat. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 31, 2019, 06:41:12 AM
The European elections have turned out beautifully.

It seems like the People's Party alliance doesn't need Orban's 13 seats, but they do need either the liberal or the socialist alliance to get the top job, and those two are probably not keen on agreeing with a party with Orban as a member.

This has been quite evident the last few days, because the Good Guy Orban scharade is full on. As it's latest act, the government has frozen the creation of the special courts, designed to judge over all cases involving public funds and such. This was their way of finally breaking the back of the juidical system that still has seen some people rallying around the idea of checks and balances.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2019, 05:00:14 AM
Good old Eastern Europe. The Romanian mayor of a godforsaken Romanian town in Tranyslvania, decided to flex some Dacian muscles.

There's a WW1 military cemetary 20 kilometers from his town, in a now abandoned village. It was a cemetery specifically designated for Hungarian and German fallen soldiers in 1927 by the Romanian government. So, there isn't a single dead Romanian in there.  The nearby Hungarians have been taking care of the cemetery for almost a hundred years now.

So, this mayor declared that a) this belongs to his town because of reasons and b) that it is from now a Romanian military cemetery, and he'll have a memorial for the Romanian fallen soldiers installed there, together with an Orthodox religious ceremony to Orthodoxy-fy the whole thing.

IIRC the Romanian courts judged this illegal, but that didn't really slow the guy down. So when his ilk arrived to perform this weird ethnic cleansing of the dead, a group of Hungarians went to protest and tried to block the entrance of the cemetery.

There was a bit of a huddle until some Romanian football hooligan types arrived, the police officers couldnt contain them (who knows how hard they tried) and beat up the Hungarian civilians, routing them.

Now the two governments are yelling at each other, and the Romanian ambassador in Budapest refused to appear when the Hungarian foreign minister summoned him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2019, 05:15:45 AM
I don't think a conflict in the Balkans can spark a major conflagration.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2019, 01:40:25 PM
Ok this is awesome.


The main (as in, only) remaining liberal/leftist online newsite is 444.hu. They are quite gonzo, but do investigate journalism as well. There are small teams doing investigations and putting up stories but basically they seem to survive thanks to 444 publishing these as well.

Anyways, 444's office is in a flat in an apartment building.

Yesterday, the journalist recognised the man entering the flat next to their office. He was... Nikola Gruevski the former Macedonian prime minister who was sentenced to jail because of corruption, and about 6 months ago literally escaped Macedonia and made his way to Hungary with the help of the Hungarian consulates in Albania and Serbia. He has been living in Budapest since.

They tried to interview him when he left, to no avail of course. But due to the photographs they made they managed to piece a few things together:

Gruevski was meeting a secretary of the foreign ministry, a guy with lots of Balkan connections. The flat is on the name of a Chinese businessman, who got his visa via the controversial Settlement Visa program, where you buy a bond, and besides a nice return you get permanent settled status (and are free to move about in the EU of course).

Gruevski was driven to the spot in an SUV with a German license plate, driven by a guy who appears to had some holster on.


Nothing will come of this in Hungary of course, but it is funny to get a little glimpse of how shady deals are made, thanks to utter incompetence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2019, 06:15:26 AM
Aung San Su Kji of the Myanmar ethnic cleansing fame stopped by Budapest on her European tour over the weekend, where she was praised as "somebody who is willing to work for her nation's interest even if it requires sacrifices".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2019, 06:21:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2019, 06:15:26 AM
Aung San Su Kji of the Myanmar ethnic cleansing fame stopped by Budapest on her European tour over the weekend, where he was praised as "somebody who is willing to work for her nation's interest even if it requires sacrifices".

Yeah, I saw that a couple days ago and it was like oh good, hatred of Muslims can unite bigots across borders.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Malthus on June 10, 2019, 10:38:25 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2019, 06:21:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2019, 06:15:26 AM
Aung San Su Kji of the Myanmar ethnic cleansing fame stopped by Budapest on her European tour over the weekend, where he was praised as "somebody who is willing to work for her nation's interest even if it requires sacrifices".

Yeah, I saw that a couple days ago and it was like oh good, hatred of Muslims can unite bigots across borders.

Bigots sans frontiers!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2019, 06:21:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2019, 06:15:26 AM
Aung San Su Kji of the Myanmar ethnic cleansing fame stopped by Budapest on her European tour over the weekend, where he was praised as "somebody who is willing to work for her nation's interest even if it requires sacrifices".

Yeah, I saw that a couple days ago and it was like oh good, hatred of Muslims can unite bigots across borders.

I do think it is weird how there is this international alliance of right wing nationalists cheering each other on. They even have their own group in the EU parliament.

The international nationalistmen's association.

Let us come together to stop international cooperation so we can get back to being rivals other like the good old days.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2019, 11:26:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2019, 06:21:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2019, 06:15:26 AM
Aung San Su Kji of the Myanmar ethnic cleansing fame stopped by Budapest on her European tour over the weekend, where he was praised as "somebody who is willing to work for her nation's interest even if it requires sacrifices".

Yeah, I saw that a couple days ago and it was like oh good, hatred of Muslims can unite bigots across borders.

I do think it is weird how there is this international alliance of right wing nationalists cheering each other on. They even have their own group in the EU parliament.

The international nationalistmen's association.

I suspect that a lot of them are simply common crooks with very little actual convinction behind what they say. It must help.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2019, 05:18:15 AM
Pro tip: make sure you don't get into a serious accident in and around Budapest at the same time as 6 other people do too. Due to the chronic lack of funding (all those stadiums, palaces, foreign football clubs, Chinese railroad lines, shady business deals won't finance themselves, you know), all the traumatologies of hospitals in Budapest combined are now only able to treat/operate on a total of 6 patients with life threatening injuries/conditions. If you are the 7th, you are fucked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on June 18, 2019, 06:56:28 AM
:o
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 03, 2019, 03:42:59 AM
Allegedly, according to sources in both administrations, when Orban had his private meeting with Trump, he wanted to strike a deal: he'd not torpedo the Hungarian purchase of a SAM system from a joint Raytheon-Norwegian venture, if Trump helps him pressure Norway into allowing the Hungarian government decide which NGOs get funding from Norway's fund, instead of these funds being allocated independently of them, as they are right now.

Trump deflected it saying he loves Norway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 03, 2019, 03:55:01 AM
He's not racist but he loves Norwegian immigrants. :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 03, 2019, 04:07:17 AM
A pretty liable Hungarian claims, citing unnamed sources from within the government, that Orban is planning a revision of the constitution, and only holding off to see if they manage to retain the Mayorship of Budapest this autumn before embarking on it.

Highlights of the revision seem to be:
-sweeping revision of all aspects of the justice system, Prosecutor's Office, judges, etc. No details on this though
-further centralisation of the civil service and state administration
-complete ban on gay adoption on the consitutional level
-further cut of employee rights



An interesting aspect explained by the anonymus sources is that truly now Orban is without anyone in his circle who would dare disagree with him. Last couple of people to do so had been Arthur J Finkelstein who was probably the mastermind behind Fidesz propaganda, but has been dead for two years now. His Hungarian counterpart, a maverick consultant called Arpad Habony has been pushed outside of the inner circle lately.

This would explain how they have not managed to find a new message since 2015: After 4 years, they are still stuck with migrants and Soros, probably the last brainchild of the Finkelstein-Habony dream team.



Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on July 19, 2019, 09:19:31 AM
So apparently because the Finnish government (currently holding EU presidency) is taking a stand on defending democracy in the EU and condemning worrying developments in Hungary and Poland, Hungarian media is spewing hostile propaganda about Finland. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on July 19, 2019, 05:02:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2019, 03:55:01 AM
He's not racist but he loves Norwegian immigrants. :)

He probably forgot that the Bikini Team is Swedish.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 19, 2019, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 19, 2019, 09:19:31 AM
So apparently because the Finnish government (currently holding EU presidency) is taking a stand on defending democracy in the EU and condemning worrying developments in Hungary and Poland, Hungarian media is spewing hostile propaganda about Finland. :D

What exactly do they have on Finland?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on July 20, 2019, 01:59:13 AM
They claim we don't have an "independent constitutional legal system" and there's no freedom of press because most major media is liberal (which is not really true).

Articles in question:
https://www.origo.hu/nagyvilag/20190715-finnorszagban-sulyos-veszelyben-van-a-mediapluralizmus.html
https://www.origo.hu/nagyvilag/20190715-finnorszagban-nincsen-fuggetlen-alkotmanyos-jogrendszer.html
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 20, 2019, 02:04:45 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 20, 2019, 01:59:13 AMno freedom of press because most major media is liberal

Unless there's state pressure against media with other leanings, then I don't see how that follows. Besides wouldn't that mean that Hungary doesn't have free press because most major media are conservative? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on July 20, 2019, 04:29:25 AM
Maybe long and dark winters are a Soros conspiracy?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 20, 2019, 04:50:22 AM
Ah, Origo.hu

It used to be the biggest Hungarian news site. Used to be owned by Deutsche Telekom's Hungarian subsidiary, but -probably in exchange of lifting punitive taxes- they sold it to a Fidesz oligarch, and it has become a very vile site.

My favourite part is when these different government media reference each other as reliable source. Like Orgio would feature a ridiculous story like this, and the state TV would feature it.

One of Orban's men recently opened a news agency in London, so now they get to feature news from "according to a foreign news agency"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on July 20, 2019, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2019, 02:04:45 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 20, 2019, 01:59:13 AMno freedom of press because most major media is liberal

Unless there's state pressure against media with other leanings, then I don't see how that follows. Besides wouldn't that mean that Hungary doesn't have free press because most major media are conservative? :P

You don't see how that follows, but the Hungarian state media certainly does. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 25, 2019, 06:41:20 AM
I genuinely wonder when parts of the Hungarian state will just simply cease to function.

During the multiple heatwaves there in the last couple of months, several hospitals had operating rooms with 35-36 degress of Celcius temperature. In the children's ward in a major city, for a while they only did life-saving operations, using iced clothes to keep the patients cool and wiping the sweat from the doctors so they could actually see while operating. And this was just one hospital out of at least three I have read about.

The official reaction to all this was straight out of the Chernobyl series. First, they denied anything like this ever happened. Then they threatened those who leaked the info. Then they acknowledged various malfunctions with the AC equipment.


Meanwhile, the year previous has seen the most resignations from the police force, ever.

They have also just reduced the requirements for head teacher/director positions at elementary and high schools, because nobody wants to take them. This one, in particular, is blamed by many on the extreme centralisation of the state education system. Pretty much all autonomy of school directors have been taken away, and they now serve as the main administrators. Having all the responsibility and work and none of the control for slightly higher wages than a regular teacher is understandably not an attractive proposition.

The National Science Academy has effectively been annexed by the government, all future grants will be handed out by a government politician, and not by the body of scientists leading the Academy.

I think I've mentioned that the National Library is being exiled from their beautiful and (and lucratively placed) 19th century building to some unused military barracks.

Latest news is that the EU will -finally- start some proceedings over Hungary literally starving asylum seekers in their border-zone camps. That's one disgrace that has been going on for years. Basically, people are told that they should go back to Serbia if they want to eat. It took a lot of effort by NGO workers to, for example, get the authorities to feed a pregnant woman.

It's just an effin' disgrace all around.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on July 25, 2019, 07:17:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 25, 2019, 06:41:20 AM
I genuinely wonder when parts of the Hungarian state will just simply cease to function.

During the multiple heatwaves there in the last couple of months, several hospitals had operating rooms with 35-36 degress of Celcius temperature. In the children's ward in a major city, for a while they only did life-saving operations, using iced clothes to keep the patients cool and wiping the sweat from the doctors so they could actually see while operating. And this was just one hospital out of at least three I have read about.

The official reaction to all this was straight out of the Chernobyl series. First, they denied anything like this ever happened. Then they threatened those who leaked the info. Then they acknowledged various malfunctions with the AC equipment.


Meanwhile, the year previous has seen the most resignations from the police force, ever.

They have also just reduced the requirements for head teacher/director positions at elementary and high schools, because nobody wants to take them. This one, in particular, is blamed by many on the extreme centralisation of the state education system. Pretty much all autonomy of school directors have been taken away, and they now serve as the main administrators. Having all the responsibility and work and none of the control for slightly higher wages than a regular teacher is understandably not an attractive proposition.

The National Science Academy has effectively been annexed by the government, all future grants will be handed out by a government politician, and not by the body of scientists leading the Academy.

I think I've mentioned that the National Library is being exiled from their beautiful and (and lucratively placed) 19th century building to some unused military barracks.

Latest news is that the EU will -finally- start some proceedings over Hungary literally starving asylum seekers in their border-zone camps. That's one disgrace that has been going on for years. Basically, people are told that they should go back to Serbia if they want to eat. It took a lot of effort by NGO workers to, for example, get the authorities to feed a pregnant woman.

It's just an effin' disgrace all around.

This will be the UK in 5-10 years time with Johnson in charge.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on July 26, 2019, 10:19:32 AM
Never thought Mongers could say BoJo would have such a long "reign".  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on July 26, 2019, 11:32:28 AM
I'm sure it was a typo. For years read months.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on July 26, 2019, 01:38:13 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 26, 2019, 10:19:32 AM
Never though Mongers could say BoJo would have such a long "reign".  :P

:D

No I actually meant it, I fear with him playing full on populism, he'll be able to find scapegoats for a fair few years. 

Or if Brexit is his undoing, then the hard right Tories that succeed him, like JRM will be able to lay the blame at his door and rule in his stead.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 11, 2019, 05:45:08 AM
There has been this "Civil Service University" the government formed some years ago to train police and army officers, civil servants, and the like.

This is apparently from the freshmen oath-taking ceremony:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6b52015669633f910a7db551deace5b66b43c63252663eb64e494a901843d9e6.png?w=600&h)


:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on September 11, 2019, 07:32:09 AM
What's with the magical stick?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 09, 2019, 04:45:28 AM
This Sunday there'll be local elections country-wide.

So Fidesz wanted to make sure people know what they are TRULY about:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--jnVCg4wR--/h_340,w_340/7MhA3qGqEaS5FUFUs.jpeg)


"Hungary will not be an immigrant country!

This Sunday, make a stand for Hungary!"





Also there has been a major scandal involving the long-standing Fidesz mayor of a major western city, Gyor. Some ex-affiliate (anonymus) has started revealing details about him, most notably a fun weekend he had on a yacht on the Adriatic last year, with some of his crook friends and a number of cheap whores.

It's the kind of reveal that he had to upload to Pornhub.  :D So the country has been watching the naked mayor going at it in a yacht orgy, in a home video.

But he hasn't resigned, and will still run this Sunday.

Weirdest of all was his opponent, the joint candidate of the opposition, some lady. She released a video, which really came very short of seeking excuses for the mayor.  :wacko: She said that the mayor has "betrayed everything he used to stand for" and although "she is not as experienced in running a city" as the mayor is "she would never embarass it this way".

As if she got terified of the prospect she might actually win. Shows you the sorry state of politics in the country. This mayor allegedly has been more like a feudal lord so I guess I understand if the prospect of having to fight and dismantle his web of corrupt alliances feels daunting, but come on now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 14, 2019, 05:23:23 AM
It seems that not everything is lost in Hungary after all.

QuoteBlow for Hungary PM Orbán as opposition wins Budapest mayoral race

Gergely Karácsony's victory is one of many defeats across Hungary for Viktor Orbán's Fidesz party


Hungary's nationalist prime minister Viktor Orbán has suffered his first electoral blow since coming to power in 2010, with an opposition candidate scoring a shock win in the Budapest mayoral race.

The victory was "historic", said the pro-European centre-left challenger Gergely Karácsony, 44, who was backed by a wide range of opposition parties from across the political spectrum.

The mild-mannered former political scientist led by 51% of the vote ahead of the incumbent Istvan Tarlos on around 44%, with 82% of votes counted.

In office since 2010, the 71-year-old Tarlos, who is backed by Orbán's right-wing Fidesz party, congratulated the new mayor by phone, Karácsony told cheering supporters.

"We will take the city from the 20th century to the 21st," said the pro-EU Karacsony, who was one of the few opposition politicians to win a district in the previous election five years ago. "Budapest will be green and free, we will bring it back to Europe."

Karácsony had compared the Budapest race to the Istanbul mayoral election in March, in which the candidate of Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's party was defeated by the opposition challenger.

"Istanbul voted against an aggressive illiberal power in many ways similar to Orbán's regime," Karácsony said before the vote.

Since 2010, Orbán has concentrated power and media organs in his hands, and regularly clashed with Brussels over migration and rule-of-law issues. He has also cruised to consecutive landslide victories at the polls, partly due to electoral rule changes he oversaw.

Fidesz had run a highly negative campaign attacking Karácsony for an allegedly pro-migration stance and his "unsuitability" for the job, and Orbán had threatened to withhold cooperation from municipalities lost by his party.

The favourite in the run-up to the vote, Tarlos and Fidesz, which brands itself as Christian-conservatve, were damaged by a sex scandal involving a Fidesz mayor in the western city of Gyor that erupted last week.

"We acknowledge this decision in Budapest, and stand ready to cooperate," Orbán told supporters at a rally.

The elections were seen as a rare chance for the beleaguered opposition to roll back the power of Fidesz, which also hold a supermajority in parliament, and Orbán who has boasted about building an "illiberal state".

Parties from left to right joined forces in an effort to wrest control of Fidesz-held municipalities and prevent an electoral rout for the first time in almost a decade. In many municipalities just one opposition challenger lined up against Fidesz.

Polls had still forecast only slight gains nationwide for the opposition outside the capital, but in another surprise it won 10 of 23 of Hungary's main cities.

The vote was seen as a litmus test for its new strategy of cooperation, which could offer a route to mount a serious challenge to Orbán at the next general election in 2022.

"The win [in Budapest] was just the first step on the road to changing Hungary," said Karácsony.

Andras Biro-Nagy, an analyst with Policy Solutions, said: "It proves that the new strategy of opposition cooperation works, it was its best result in years. Budapest is the big prize, but the breakthrough in numerous provincial cities is at least as important.

"It is the first crack in the Orbán system, and it seems guaranteed that the strategy will continue for 2022," he said.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 14, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Yeah read a story about that just before the election.  Said that is Fidesz lost, Orban would force through constitutional amendments to neuter local government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 14, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 14, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Yeah read a story about that just before the election.  Said that is Fidesz lost, Orban would force through constitutional amendments to neuter local government.

Will see.

I am genuinely surprised they didn't doctor the results.

I mean, whether Karacsony will actually use his considerable new powers to build a hinterland for the opposition to build on, or instead to establish himself as an integral part of the Orbanist World Order, remains to be seen. If he does the former, then I am sure Orban will retaliate.

But the loss of face for the government is undeniable. This is the first major defeat for them since they came to power in 2010. More importantly, it shows that proper opposition cooperation CAN work.


And the homemade orgy video guy actually retained his mayorship :P Just barely, with 600 votes, but still it is disgusting that in one of the major cities, having a coke-fuelled orgy with two local oligarchs proven literally by the mayor's naked ass, is not enough to lose the election.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 14, 2019, 11:55:48 AM
He may be corrupt, but he can't be knocked for lack of transparency.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2019, 04:36:19 AM
So, apart from winning the city mayor title, the opposition alliance has wrestled control of almost all district councils in Budapest.

Which makes those districts showcase what would happen on a countrywide scale if Fidesz were to lose the national elections as well.

It's scorched earth.

At most districts (but especially the ones with the biggest corruption-suspicious business deals), they have attacked the results on court, thus delaying the new council members and mayors taking up office, while simultaneously, their people in offices/organisations/businesses performing council functions are resigning, and they are also trying to force council workers to holidays/sick leaves. Basically, they are grinding everything to a halt. The new administration cannot take up work, and the old one has abandoned ship.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2019, 09:25:10 AM
Actually, one of the newly elected council members in one of the Budapest districts busted and videoed a literal truckload of documents in cardboard boxes being transported out of the district mayor's office the night after his electoral defeat.


Shows the scale of corruption that must be prevalent everywhere
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2019, 09:30:15 AM
I am kind of amazed Orban wimped out and did not just steal the election. He must not be in as strong of a position as I thought.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on October 18, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
maybe he just didn't ballet stuff enough.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 18, 2019, 09:49:21 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 18, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
maybe he just didn't ballet stuff enough.

Thanks for that image.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2019, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2019, 09:30:15 AM
I am kind of amazed Orban wimped out and did not just steal the election. He must not be in as strong of a position as I thought.

I could be mistaken but I think the organisation of these local elections is much less centralised than the national one.

But it did surprise me a bit as well, to be honest.


I still have not entirely given up the idea that the 2018 national results were tampered with. And I am convinced they will cheat national results if they would lose otherwise. If they can't control the legislature and the chief prosecution office, they won't just fall out of power. They will go to jail.



Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 02, 2020, 06:32:37 AM
Just so you get a good idea of how Hungary operates in practice:

A Portugese paper had an interview with the one-time (2013-24) Portugese coach of Orban's second favourite Hungarian club Videoton. This is local big team for Orban (and for me), with quite a bit of history.

So, this coach mentioned that he had a lot of issues with communication within the club, and couldn't really get the changes he wanted to.

But this wasn't a big problem, because he could always count on the prime minister. He would just visit him at his village home, they'd "eat some ham at the larder", he told Orban what he needed, and he saw to it being done.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 02, 2020, 06:41:21 AM
Do you have a link to the original paper Tamas? Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 02, 2020, 06:43:59 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 02, 2020, 06:41:21 AM
Do you have a link to the original paper Tamas? Should be interesting.

Only that it's https://tribunaexpresso.pt/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 02, 2020, 07:46:14 AM
It's here:

https://tribunaexpresso.pt/a-casa-as-costas/2020-03-01-Jose-Gomes-No-Benfica-o-Camacho-quis-testar-me-mas-eu-percebi-e-pensei-Vinhas-tu-de-Espanha-enganar-um-gajo-de-Matosinhos- (https://tribunaexpresso.pt/a-casa-as-costas/2020-03-01-Jose-Gomes-No-Benfica-o-Camacho-quis-testar-me-mas-eu-percebi-e-pensei-Vinhas-tu-de-Espanha-enganar-um-gajo-de-Matosinhos-)

It's only a small part of it:

QuoteComo o receberam no clube?
A minha entrada foi muito bem aceite, a forma de jogar, o cariz ofensivo da equipa, a liberdade dada aos jogadores, o espaço para mostrar o que cada um tem de melhor como jogador foi muito bem aceite. Tivemos quase de imediato resultados muito bons. Depois na época seguinte houve uns problemas no clube. No primeiro ano quando eu tinha um problema conseguia resolvê-lo com alguma facilidade, porque por trás do projeto do futebol, não só dali mas de todo o país, estava o primeiro-ministro e eu morava a pouco mais de um quilómetro da casa dele. Quando tinha algum problema ligava-lhe e ia ter a casa dele, reuníamos na copa dele a comer um presunto, explicava-lhe as coisas e ele conseguia resolver-me os problemas.

Por que razão tinha de recorrer ao primeiro-ministro?
O clube tinha um investidor que era um homem de negócios e tinha entre o investidor e a equipa profissional um diretor que era um homem de atividades ao ar livre e natureza, fazia escalada, montanhismo, não percebia nada de futebol. Depois este foi substituído por um economista que jogava ténis com uns amigos ao fim de semana, também não percebia nada de futebol. Quem me resolvia os problemas era o primeiro-ministro porque conseguia fazer-me explicar ao dono, que não falava inglês, e dizer como é que as coisas tinham de ser resolvidas. Na segunda época quando há uns conflitos na Ucrânia e há uma ameaça de corte do fornecimento do gás para a Hungria, o primeiro-ministro tentou acautelar essa situação negociando a entrada de gás pela Polónia e portanto estava muitas vezes na Polónia e muitas vezes ausente quando eu tinha problemas. Há uma altura em que, apesar de ter mais um ano de contrato, digo para eles pensarem em quem queriam que viesse para o meu lugar na época seguinte que eu só ficaria até final da época.

Second paragraph, after asking why he have to resort to Prime-minister Orban states that due to Ukraine and gaz issues, involving negotiations for transit through Poland, he lost that critical support of Orban. There is another part about somewhat problematic working conditions inciting him to leave and then the coach moves to Saudi Arabia for the biggest cultural shock. I guess that explains why he's not very critical of Hungary.  :D Plus no presunto cured ham to discuss problems over in Arabia.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 03, 2020, 06:28:33 AM
Thanks Duque!


There's been a lot of anger over the brand new national education plan.

It seems chaotic, not well thought out, obsolete, and too much about preaching propaganda.

The literature parts especially stand out. Imre Kertesz is out of required curriculum, and in are various far-right hacks of the WW2 and interwar periods, reverred by fascists but ignored by everyone else.

Basically, the untalented hacks of the far-right have now their chance to take over the education of the next generation and they are going at it with all the vengeance of a no-talent frustrated assclown.


One of them got interviewed in a pro-government newspaper, and one of the -dangerously provocative, I guess- questions was "does he think the required reading at school should help make kids come to like reading?" He said "school isn't for the needs of the children".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 04, 2020, 07:50:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 03, 2020, 06:28:33 AMHe said "school isn't for the needs of the children".

You rarely see that kind of honesty.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 04, 2020, 08:24:15 PM
Well I guess if I ever despair at the idiocy of Texas schools I can always be happy my kids don't have: "Why killing the Jews was good: Essays by Hungarian literary heroes" as a required textbook.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 05, 2020, 12:04:02 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 04, 2020, 08:24:15 PM
Well I guess if I ever despair at the idiocy of Texas schools I can always be happy my kids don't have: "Why killing the Jews was good: Essays by Hungarian literary heroes" as a required textbook.

Always is a long word.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 22, 2020, 03:44:59 PM
Tamas, papers here report that Orban is presenting a law to parliament that would allow him to extend the state of emergency indefinitely, and basically permit him to rule per decree?

Any truth to that? :unsure:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on March 23, 2020, 04:48:30 AM
Netanyahu is doing the same thing in Israel.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2020, 05:17:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 22, 2020, 03:44:59 PM
Tamas, papers here report that Orban is presenting a law to parliament that would allow him to extend the state of emergency indefinitely, and basically permit him to rule per decree?

Any truth to that? :unsure:

Yes it is true. It grants such sweeping powers that even the Fidesz-written cinstituon requires a 4/5th majority of Parliament to accept it. But also, if there is no such support than a second vote a week later will only require a 2/3rd majority which they do have.

The opposition declared they will only agree to this with a clear deadline in place. They have been then labelled as traitors and the government declared they are just going to get it on the second vote.

There are some proper scary parts in the bill like 5 years prison for scaremongering which includes among other things "presenting a fact in a way that induces panic in the general population"


I guess Orbán doesn't want a good pandemic go to waste.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 23, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on March 23, 2020, 04:48:30 AM
Netanyahu is doing the same thing in Israel.
Despite the fact that, from what I understand, he's squatting in office.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2020, 05:35:35 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 23, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on March 23, 2020, 04:48:30 AM
Netanyahu is doing the same thing in Israel.
Despite the fact that, from what I understand, he's squatting in office.

Well he won't be ousted after gaining emergency powers, duh.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 23, 2020, 05:37:14 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 23, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on March 23, 2020, 04:48:30 AM
Netanyahu is doing the same thing in Israel.
Despite the fact that, from what I understand, he's squatting in office.

:x
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 23, 2020, 05:37:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 23, 2020, 05:35:35 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 23, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on March 23, 2020, 04:48:30 AM
Netanyahu is doing the same thing in Israel.
Despite the fact that, from what I understand, he's squatting in office.

Well he won't be ousted after gaining emergency powers, duh.
Yeah I'm concerned at the leaders who seem to be sort of enjoying the ability to close borders and take loads of authoritarian powers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2020, 04:45:34 PM
Fun fact: Hitler also submitted the bill giving him extraordinary powers on the 23rd of March :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 23, 2020, 07:16:50 PM
Yeah, can't think of a better moment for authoritarian asshatery like this one. Heck, even protesting on the streets is a bad idea because of the virus.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 30, 2020, 11:46:47 AM
So it looks like Orban's Ermächtigungsgesetz just passed.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUXAJGcWsAEMIJH?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 30, 2020, 12:56:46 PM
It is pretty clear that all the good sense went to the Austrian half of the Empire.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on March 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Orban gets to decide when the crisis is over....no time limit for the exceptional powers  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 31, 2020, 02:42:30 AM
Why the fuck would anyone agree to that?  Why would a legislative body effectively vote itself out of existence, or at least relevance?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 31, 2020, 02:47:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2020, 02:42:30 AM
Why the fuck would anyone agree to that?  Why would a legislative body effectively vote itself out of existence, or at least relevance?

Because Orban's party have 2/3 of parliament and follow him blindly? (They carried 50% of the popular vote or thereabouts)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on March 31, 2020, 02:50:18 AM
Great, an EU dictatorship, that's just what we need. I hope there is a procedure for kicking a member state out for failing to be a democracy.

We'll have to let Serbia in though, if there's any hope for that rail link to Baghdad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 31, 2020, 02:52:19 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 31, 2020, 02:47:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2020, 02:42:30 AM
Why the fuck would anyone agree to that?  Why would a legislative body effectively vote itself out of existence, or at least relevance?

Because Orban's party have 2/3 of parliament and follow him blindly? (They carried 50% of the popular vote or thereabouts)

Yes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 31, 2020, 02:54:13 AM
Quote from: Maladict on March 31, 2020, 02:50:18 AM
Great, an EU dictatorship, that's just what we need. I hope there is a procedure for kicking a member state out for failing to be a democracy.
The EU was always good at making up procedures when needed. I hope they have the balls to actually act against Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 31, 2020, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on March 31, 2020, 02:54:13 AM
Quote from: Maladict on March 31, 2020, 02:50:18 AM
Great, an EU dictatorship, that's just what we need. I hope there is a procedure for kicking a member state out for failing to be a democracy.
The EU was always good at making up procedures when needed. I hope they have the balls to actually act against Hungary.

Problem will probably be that even if Hungary got no voting on the procedures, their Polish friends are likely to veto/slow down the process as much as possible.

Compare and contrast to the EU reaction in 2000 when Jörg Haider joined the government in Austria.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on March 31, 2020, 03:05:18 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 31, 2020, 02:59:03 AM

Problem will probably be that even if Hungary got no voting on the procedures, their Polish friends are likely to veto/slow down the process as much as possible.

Compare and contrast to the EU reaction in 2000 when Jörg Haider joined the government in Austria.

If anything, taking decisive action against Hungary might just keep Poland from going the same way.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 31, 2020, 04:00:49 AM
I think PiS for all their issues are different than Orban and Fidesz.

But yeah, this is worrying :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 01, 2020, 02:24:19 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Orban gets to decide when the crisis is over....no time limit for the exceptional powers  :mad:

I'm sure this modern day Cincinnatus will act responsibly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2020, 03:12:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 01, 2020, 02:24:19 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Orban gets to decide when the crisis is over....no time limit for the exceptional powers  :mad:

I'm sure this modern day Cincinnatus will act responsibly.

I don't think whole families are allowed in shops for Easter egg buying, so it is already pretty rough.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 01, 2020, 03:55:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2020, 03:12:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 01, 2020, 02:24:19 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Orban gets to decide when the crisis is over....no time limit for the exceptional powers  :mad:

I'm sure this modern day Cincinnatus will act responsibly.

I don't think whole families are allowed in shops for Easter egg buying, so it is already pretty rough.

^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2020, 07:08:07 AM
Seems like the pandemic also offers a convenient solution to deal with the problem of Fidesz' recent loss at mayoral and local elections (a LOT of cities and major towns went to opposition control).

Under this new emergency law, although the mayors get the right to skip the council members and make decisions on their own, most decisions in fact will need to be approved by district or county "defense committees". These are not a group of experts as you might expect, but almost exclusively political appointments, consisting of Fidesz politicians past their glory days.

So in effect all mayors and councils are being drawn under direct political oversight by the central authority (i.e. Orban). 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2020, 09:27:28 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 01, 2020, 07:08:07 AM
Seems like the pandemic also offers a convenient solution to deal with the problem of Fidesz' recent loss at mayoral and local elections (a LOT of cities and major towns went to opposition control).

Under this new emergency law, although the mayors get the right to skip the council members and make decisions on their own, most decisions in fact will need to be approved by district or county "defense committees". These are not a group of experts as you might expect, but almost exclusively political appointments, consisting of Fidesz politicians past their glory days.

So in effect all mayors and councils are being drawn under direct political oversight by the central authority (i.e. Orban).

The government has just backtracked on this one. Seems like it was a bit too obvious, and the mayors could argue effectively that democratic concerns aside, perhaps its not the best policy during an emergency to run every decision past a committee working with a five days deadline.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:08:18 PM
The leaders of 13 EPP member parties have signed a letter requesting Fidesz being kicked out of PPE (it is currently suspended indefinitely for previous transgressions) because of the state of emergency law recently passed in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on April 02, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:08:18 PM
The leaders of 13 EPP member parties have signed a letter requesting Fidesz being kicked out of PPE (it is currently suspended indefinitely for previous transgressions) because of the state of emergency law recently passed in Hungary.

But CDU did not?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:20:03 PM
Quote from: Maladict on April 02, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:08:18 PM
The leaders of 13 EPP member parties have signed a letter requesting Fidesz being kicked out of PPE (it is currently suspended indefinitely for previous transgressions) because of the state of emergency law recently passed in Hungary.

But CDU did not?

Haven't seen a comprehensive list of all the signees.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on April 02, 2020, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:20:03 PM
Quote from: Maladict on April 02, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:08:18 PM
The leaders of 13 EPP member parties have signed a letter requesting Fidesz being kicked out of PPE (it is currently suspended indefinitely for previous transgressions) because of the state of emergency law recently passed in Hungary.

But CDU did not?

Haven't seen a comprehensive list of all the signees.

The French and Germans didn't sign, among others. So much for democratic ideals.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:34:55 PM
Quote from: Maladict on April 02, 2020, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:20:03 PM
Quote from: Maladict on April 02, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 02, 2020, 12:08:18 PM
The leaders of 13 EPP member parties have signed a letter requesting Fidesz being kicked out of PPE (it is currently suspended indefinitely for previous transgressions) because of the state of emergency law recently passed in Hungary.

But CDU did not?

Haven't seen a comprehensive list of all the signees.

The French and Germans didn't sign, among others. So much for democratic ideals.

Neither did the Spanish, that's how it was reported here.

Edit: Found the letter the signees are from Belgium (2 parties), Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Norway, Slovakia and Sweden (2 parties).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 02, 2020, 12:40:26 PM
Chancellor Kurz hasn't commented, explaining that he currently has more pressing matters to attend to than the situation in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 02, 2020, 01:11:19 PM
So 13 member states drafted a very anodyne, weak statement about not going too far in overcoming this crisis and maintaining European values while fighting coronavirus. It didn't specifically condemn or even mention Hungary but was apparently the most response we could expect to Europe's newest dictatorship.

Today the Hungarian government also signed the statement :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2020, 02:26:30 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 02, 2020, 01:11:19 PM
So 13 member states drafted a very anodyne, weak statement about not going too far in overcoming this crisis and maintaining European values while fighting coronavirus. It didn't specifically condemn or even mention Hungary but was apparently the most response we could expect to Europe's newest dictatorship.

Today the Hungarian government also signed the statement :lol:

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on April 02, 2020, 02:53:40 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 02, 2020, 01:11:19 PM
Today the Hungarian government also signed the statement :lol:

Ok, that's a good one
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2020, 03:03:45 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2020, 02:53:40 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 02, 2020, 01:11:19 PM
Today the Hungarian government also signed the statement :lol:

Ok, that's a good one

They really have learned much from the Russians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 27, 2020, 04:16:08 PM
So with the national emergency, demonstrations are banned, obvs.

The two leading opposition MPs who actually want to topple the government, organised a "honking" protest as a result. They invited anyone who was driving through one of the bigger roundabouts in Budapest, fairly close to Orban's brand new offices in Buda Castle, to honk their horn in sign of their dissatisfaction.

There was a fair number of police present and they sideline anyone who wonked, took their information and booked them for "using emergency notification (I guess that's the closest mirror translation of the official name of the honk) without justification". Some of the cyclists watching also got police attention.

One of the people interviewed there, some fashion designer guy, actually raised a good point: one of the recent actions that has been really unpopular was the ditching of pretty much anyone out of hospitals who do not have Covid-19, freeing up some 36,000 beds. He raised the point that this is probably so they don't have to spend on emergency extra capacity. While of course the stealing of public and EU funds continues uninterrupted, there's been plenty of recent business news showing Orban's strawman oligarch winning plenty of new concessions from the state.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PRC on May 06, 2020, 07:46:42 PM
Tamas, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've been saying this is the direction they've been going in for years now:

Quote

https://www.politico.eu/article/hungary-no-longer-a-democracy-report/

Hungary no longer a democracy: report

NGO describes 'a stunning democratic breakdown.'
By LAURENZ GEHRKE   5/6/20, 1:34 PM CET Updated 5/6/20, 9:08 PM CET

Hungary is no longer a democracy, Poland is about to go down the same path, democracy in the Balkans is eroding because of Chinese and Russian influence, and the EU is doing nothing to stop it all, according to the NGO Freedom House's latest Nations in Transit report, out Wednesday.

In the study, which covers 29 countries from Central Europe to Central Asia, the authors describe "a stunning democratic breakdown," saying that there are "fewer democracies in the region today than at any point since the annual report was launched in 1995."

According to the report's methodology, Hungary is now a "hybrid regime," having lost its status as a "semi-consolidated democracy" due to Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's continued assaults on the country's democratic institutions.

The adoption of an emergency law that allows the government to rule by decree indefinitely, brought in after the coronavirus pandemic struck, "has further exposed the undemocratic character of Orbán's regime," the authors wrote, adding that "Hungary's decline has been the most precipitous [they have] ever tracked."

Poland isn't far behind, according to the report, which says there have been spectacular attacks on the judiciary by the ruling Law and Justice party.

And Brussels gets much of the blame.

"Neither Poland nor Hungary has faced repercussions for damaging the rule of law at home, and Hungary's ruling Fidesz party has even remained a member of the mainstream European People's Party, the largest grouping in the European Parliament," according to the report, adding that U.S. President Donald Trump has also "failed to stand up for democracy in the region."

In response, Zoltán Kovács, Hungary's secretary of state for international communication and relations, said on Twitter that Freedom House "was once known as the bipartisan human rights organization. With their [George] Soros funding they've declined, becoming the fist of the party that is the Soros network. Anyone who doesn't conform to their liberal view, gets downgraded."

The report also has serious concerns about the Balkans.

"Years of ... strongman tactics employed by Aleksandar Vučić in Serbia and Milo Đukanović in Montenegro have tipped those countries over the edge," it says. "For the first time since 2003, they are no longer categorized as democracies."

The assessment comes on the day of an EU-Balkans summit, which was supposed to be held in Croatia but will now take place over videolink.

The Freedom House report says foreign influence has been a destabilizing factor.

"In addition to Russia's continued malign influence, China has been advancing an ambitious foreign policy in practically all of the region's 29 countries," the authors say.

"Xi Jinping's regime is not so much spreading its own one-party model as it is spreading its influence ... taking advantage of institutional weaknesses, and wedging itself into corrupt political and economic structures."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 06, 2020, 10:23:20 PM
Yeah the EU needs to kick those countries out or the whole project will be in serious danger.

So much for "new Europe"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 07, 2020, 02:31:43 AM
Yeah it's been obvious we would get here.


That honking protest I wrote about above got repeated a couple of days ago, once again minuscule as before. Most participants instead of honking played loud music/sound effects from their car so the rule on unnecessary use of the car honk wouldn't apply.

Didn't bother the police though. 50 of them got fined for demonstrating during a state of emergency.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 12, 2020, 04:01:56 AM
These "honking protests" are a good indication of how the nature and interactions of power remains the same.

2-3 MPs and a few dozen of their supporters circle a big roundabout in city traffic every Monday, and blast loud music from their cars as sign of protest/discontent.

If the powers that be would have left them alone, it would probably have petered out already. I mean who would care? But the police just HAVE to go out in force and fine them, making it a spectacle and an event worth watching.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--rTRLFXAt--/w_1160/7S6VnzeQuKt0l8VQs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 12, 2020, 04:02:31 AM
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--bfoQiGld--/w_1160/7S6UgMd6ZF8St4ais.jpeg)

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--_9UWt3dD--/w_1160/7S6UdnEb45xrr4ZNs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on May 12, 2020, 04:09:36 AM
Ah, our far right party has called for similar "car protests" in all Spanish cities, in a couple weeks. I thought the idea was a bit too clever for being theirs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on May 12, 2020, 04:16:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2020, 10:23:20 PM
Yeah the EU needs to kick those countries out or the whole project will be in serious danger.

So much for "new Europe"

AFAIK there is no mechanism for kicking members out. Much like with your South, we fight with the retards we have and not the retards we wish we had.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on May 12, 2020, 04:29:32 AM
Also, abandoning them to Russian influence would hardly improve matters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Maladict on May 12, 2020, 04:53:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 12, 2020, 04:16:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2020, 10:23:20 PM
Yeah the EU needs to kick those countries out or the whole project will be in serious danger.

So much for "new Europe"

AFAIK there is no mechanism for kicking members out. Much like with your South, we fight with the retards we have and not the retards we wish we had.

In that case we need to fight a lot harder.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 12, 2020, 04:59:32 AM
Colorful news from the police: they took in a 64 years old idiot for a Facebook post claiming lockdown was eased in the country exactly at the virus' peak to ensure people get infected. Under the emergency laws this constitutes "inducing panic" so he faces at least a fine.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--0EKvUtNS--/h_191,w_340/7S7cEPeHccvtCG6ts.png)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2020, 02:23:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 12, 2020, 04:59:32 AM
Colorful news from the police: they took in a 64 years old idiot for a Facebook post claiming lockdown was eased in the country exactly at the virus' peak to ensure people get infected. Under the emergency laws this constitutes "inducing panic" so he faces at least a fine.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--0EKvUtNS--/h_191,w_340/7S7cEPeHccvtCG6ts.png)

So actually, this is quite worse than I thought. I have read the guy's Facebook post. It is a perfectly dime-a-dozen Facebook opinion post. He was wondering, if Orban said the peak would come 3 May, why the lockdown got eased on 4 May, didn't that mean that people were allowed to mingle again just at the time there were the most infected among them? He then closed off with something along the lines of "Please our dictator, don't do this to us".

So of course he got asked by the police just who did he mean by "dictator".

Basically, based on that, every third post on Languish would warrant a visit from the police.

It is a clear case of an overeager local police, I don't imagine they received a call from Budapest to grab this guy. But still shows the kind of country Hungary is now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2020, 03:15:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2020, 10:23:20 PM
Yeah the EU needs to kick those countries out or the whole project will be in serious danger.

So much for "new Europe"
:yes:

In light of brexit too and Britain's inevitable grovelling back it does make sense to put thought into a proper plan for how to deal with leaving/kicking out and bringing back in once conditions are met.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2020, 06:29:36 AM
Another guy at a medium sized town had two police car pick him up last night for making a comment 3 weeks ago about the number of hospital beds emergency-emptied at the local hospital. No idea if the claim was true or not, to be fair the law doesn't care either.

He was kept in for four hours then let go when he insisted he wanted to talk to a lawyer.

For added flavour, he is disabled and was left to his own devices to get home.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 19, 2020, 10:37:08 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2020/05/19/hungary-makes-it-impossible-for-transgender-people-to-legally-change-gender/

QuoteTransgender People In Hungary Lose Right To Gender Recognition

Transgender people in Hungary have lost legal recognition, as the country makes it impossible for people to legally change gender.

In the earth-shattering move for the transgender community by Viktor Orbán's parliament, who are currently ruling by decree due to emergency COVID-19 laws, a massive omnibus bill has just passed.

Amendments designed to protect transgender people have been rejected, ILGA-Europe confirms.

Global and European LGBT+ rights organisations have been denouncing the plans, that was, despite protests to 'Drop 33', all but expected to pass into law today.

Until this new law passed, identity documents could be changed in Hungary by law.

But Article 33's approval today, will only confirm the fear created by a suspension on changing gender in that way, in place for two years already.

All references of "sex" will now instead refer to "sex assigned at birth" in the national registry and on identity documents.

This amendment effectively ends any opportunity for legal gender recognition in Hungary, because identity documents will now reference the immutable characteristic of "sex assigned at birth
."

The Hungarian reasoning behind the move is that "completely changing one's biological sex is impossible" and that is why "it is necessary to lay it down in law that it cannot be changed in the civil registry either."

But that stands at odds with the global conventions set by the World Health Organisation's who dropped categorisation of 'gender identity disorder' from its list of diseases last year, recognising instead you can identify as transgender.

Is the move in Hungary to end legal recognition of transgender people legal under European law?

Article 33's approval in parliament today is only something that 17% of Hungarians wanted. While 7 in ten (70%) of Hungarians believe that trans people should have access to legal gender recognition, according to a Median representative survey in September 2019.

This leaves Hungary in stark contrast to not only the mood of the nation but law conventions set in the European Court of Human Rights:

"As is well-documented, access to legal gender recognition for trans and intersex people is intertwined with the protection of many of their human rights," ILGA Europe" s Advocacy Director, Katrin Hugendubel tells me.

"This means in practice that trans and intersex people will be forced to live with documents that do not align with their gender identity and expression throughout their lifetimes.

"Case law from the European Court of Human Rights clearly establishes the right to legal gender recognition for transgender people. International human rights actors must act firmly and swiftly to stop this extreme rollback in a settled area of human rights law."

The amendment also comes at a time when the Hungarian Parliament has given Prime Minister Viktor Orbán power to rule by decree indefinitely because of the COVID-19 crisis.

The decree means he no longer needs to consult other lawmakers before making policy decisions. However, Orbán has signalled he may give this power-up in June Hungary Today reports

"The Parliament should be focusing on what the people of Hungary to survive the COVID-19 pandemic, not using this crisis as cover to roll back the rights of an already-marginalised group," Masen Davis, Interim Executive Director at Transgender Europe (TGEU) says.

"This dangerous bill will subject trans people in Hungary to increased scrutiny, discrimination, and violence."

It's just the latest of Orbán's attacks against the LGBTI community, which range back to 2015 when he blocked a draft agreement at the Council of the European Union which called on the European Commission to tackle homophobic and transphobic discrimination.

Further to this in 2017, he hosted the International Organisation of the Family (IOF), a U.S. group which campaigns against same-sex marriage.

In the last two weeks, Orbán went against international precedent and refused to ratify the Istanbul Convention, which is about combating violence against women and domestic violence, because of its definition of gender as a social construct
.

Hungary is the country with the most dramatic drop in its score on the ILGA-Europe Rainbow Map, which was published last week. The map was published alongside a report that shows that LGBT rights across Europe are in recession.

Hungary lost 8.46% points on the ILGA-Europe Rainbow Map as a result of the lack of proper state protection at public events and the suspended procedures for legal gender recognition.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 19, 2020, 10:56:30 AM
I fail to see the big issue to be honest. I mean, shouldn't sex and gender be two different concepts anyway? Your genetic sex is a given and no amount of law-making can change that.

Of course Hungary would go with the bigotted/police state-y approach of making sure sex is tracked instead of gender, but otherwise, it's a marginal issue imho
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 19, 2020, 11:01:06 AM
I'm sure the people affected by this disagree, and frankly, it's just pettiness by the state.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 19, 2020, 12:12:52 PM
I mean also it's "sex assigned at birth". This is just for culture war purposes, I don't think any government was specifying that until they had recognised trans people's rights and documents should probably be the ones of how they live. We don't do much with ID cards etc in the UK, but I know one of the small but serious differences when trans people could list their lived sex on their passport was not having to deal with, say border police, who are not renowned for their sensitivity. If you use the civil registry a lot in a country there'll just be routine indignities and probably discrimination dealing with new employers, landlords etc.

But good to see that the Hungarian government is really focusing its emergency powers on the fight against coronavirus.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2020, 10:56:30 AM
I fail to see the big issue to be honest. I mean, shouldn't sex and gender be two different concepts anyway? Your genetic sex is a given and no amount of law-making can change that.

Of course Hungary would go with the bigotted/police state-y approach of making sure sex is tracked instead of gender, but otherwise, it's a marginal issue imho

I suppose a case can be made for hermaphrodites at birth, later having a sex change operation, plus some other very rare cases with puberty gone wrong, anatomically speaking. Endocrine disruptors maybe, though I am not sure if it really applies.
Of course, the non-binary bogus concept and other assorted identity politics crowds will be outraged.

Obviously, a marginal issue compared to cronyism and creeping authoritarianism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on May 19, 2020, 04:15:16 PM
I never cease to be amazed at the transphobic culture war nonsense the hard right have started kicking up in recent years. It's just idiotic.

Quote
I fail to see the big issue to be honest. I mean, shouldn't sex and gender be two different concepts anyway? Your genetic sex is a given and no amount of law-making can change that.

Of course Hungary would go with the bigotted/police state-y approach of making sure sex is tracked instead of gender, but otherwise, it's a marginal issue imho

Perhaps logically so. Though this is often over stated by the nutters as they refuse to recognise the growing scientific consensus that sex is not a simple binary.
In practice sex and gender are used completely interchangeably and you often see an awful lot of bad faith arguments attempting to drive a wedge here.

Really if we are being logical the one that always got me is being gay. Logically there should be two seperate words for being attracted to the same gender and getting it on with the same gender. Heavy overlap between members of the two groups but not necessarily the same and the muddied boundaries between them is a source of a lot of ammunition to the religious crazies.
But language is what it is and its crazy to try and change it. Well. In English anyway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 19, 2020, 04:17:53 PM
Isn't that the way most policies targeting minorities work? It's a marginal issue unless you happen to be in that minority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 19, 2020, 04:20:12 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 19, 2020, 04:15:16 PM
I never cease to be amazed at the transphobic culture war nonsense the hard right have started kicking up in recent years. It's just idiotic.
It's insane the extent to which it's gone from being a non-issue to a culture war issue - and so much of it started online.

I have an acquaintance who was one of the targets of Gamergate and I remember thinking it sound awful for her, but not much else. Looking back I think it's kind of key to understanding politics in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2020, 04:48:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 19, 2020, 04:17:53 PM
Isn't that the way most policies targeting minorities work? It's a marginal issue unless you happen to be in that minority.

For Orban, opponents to his cronyism and authoritarian creeping rule are a marginal minority I'm sure.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 19, 2020, 05:17:28 PM
They, as always, ended up as bones thrown in front of people to chew on.

This bill was in a big pile of other bills made into law today, which range from another round of mind-bogling cronyism and thievery to giving broad and probably intentionally vague and non-specific rights to National Security to monitor internet traffic of state and council organisations due to "cyber security". I am sure this has nothing to do with the opposition winning a sweeping victory in local elections last year.

Also today they have classified for 10 years the contract of the Belgrade-Budapest railroad Hungary is building for China. This is another ridiculously expensive project bested only by the new nuclear power plant they haven't started planning yet despite spending insane amounts of money on it already. The railroad is part of China's project to build a railroad across the Balkans. Only special thing is, that in other countries it is China paying for the host country, here, Hungarian tax payers pay so they can build a Chinese railroad by Chinese companies for Chinese trade.

Plus, also today, public sector workers in the culture area (libraries, museums, that sort of stuff) have lost their "public sector worker" status which granted them extra protections and perks as usual in this sort of jobs.

Etc.

And yes they have also changed "Sex" to "Sex at birth" in future passports, knowing full well lazy journalists and public opinion will jump on that instead of any of the above.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 22, 2020, 11:38:45 AM
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/21/21256324/viktor-orban-hungary-american-conservatives

QuoteThe American right's favorite strongman

Viktor Orbán dismantled Hungary's democracy. Conservatives love him.

At dawn last Tuesday morning, the police took a man named András from his home in northeastern Hungary. His alleged crime? Writing a Facebook post that called the country's prime minister, Viktor Orbán, a "dictator."

András has a point. After winning Hungary's 2010 election, the prime minister systematically dismantled the country's democracy — undermining the basic fairness of elections, packing the courts with cronies, and taking control of more than 90 percent of the country's media outlets. He has openly described his form of government as "illiberal democracy," half of which is accurate.

Since the coronavirus, Orbán's authoritarian tendencies have only grown more pronounced. His allies in parliament passed a new law giving him the power to rule by decree and creating a new crime, "spreading a falsehood," punishable by up to five years in prison. The Hungarian government recently seized public funding that opposing political parties depend on; through an ally, they took financial control of one of the few remaining anti-Orbán media outlets. This month, the pro-democracy group Freedom House officially announced that it no longer considered Hungary a democracy.

András was detained for hours for daring to criticize this authoritarian drift. The 64-year-old was ultimately released, but the police's official statement on the arrest noted that "a malicious or ill-considered share on the internet could constitute a crime." András, for one, got the message.

"I told [the cops] their task had achieved its result and would probably shut me up," he told the news site 444.

András's arrest is an unusually naked display of what Hungary has become — a cautionary tale for what a certain kind of right-wing populist will do when given unchecked political power. Yet among a certain segment of American conservatives, Orbán is not viewed as a warning.

He's viewed as a role model.

Orbán's fans in the West include notable writers at major conservative and right-leaning publications like National Review, the American Conservative, and the New York Post. Christopher Caldwell, a journalist widely respected on the right, wrote a lengthy feature praising the strongman as a leader "blessed with almost every political gift."

Patrick Deneen, perhaps the most prominent conservative political theorist in America, traveled to Budapest to meet Orbán in his office, describing the Hungarian government as a "model" for American conservatives. Jordan Peterson, the Canadian psychologist and right-wing cultural icon, also made a pilgrimage to the prime minister's office.

Chris DeMuth, the former head of the American Enterprise Institute, interviewed Orbán onstage at a conference, praising the prime minister in opening remarks as "not only a political but an intellectual leader." The event was organized by Yoram Hazony, an Israeli intellectual widely influential on the American right and another vocal Orbán fan
.

The Hungarian government has actively cultivated support from such international conservatives. John O'Sullivan, an Anglo-American contributor to National Review, is currently based at the Danube Institute — a think tank in Budapest that O'Sullivan admits receives funding from the Hungarian government.

Pro-Orbán Westerners tend to come from one of two overlapping camps in modern conservatism: religiously minded social conservatives (Deneen, for example) and conservative nationalists (Caldwell, Demuth).

Religious conservatives find Orbán's social policies to be a breath of fresh air. Orbán has given significant state support to Hungary's churches, officially labeling his government a "Christian democracy." He provided generous subsidies to families in an effort to get Hungarian women to stay at home and have more babies. He launched a legal assault on progressive social ideals, prohibiting the teaching of gender studies in Hungarian universities and banning transgender people from legally identifying as anything other than their biological sex at birth.

Conservative nationalists focus on the Hungarian approach to immigration and the European Union. During the 2015 migrant crisis, Orbán was the most prominent opponent of German Chancellor Angela Merkel's open borders approach; he built a wall on Hungary's southern border with Serbia to keep refugees from entering. He has repeatedly denounced the influence the EU has on its member states, describing one of his governing aims as preserving Hungary's national character in the face of a globalist onslaught led by Brussels and philanthropist George Soros.

For Western conservatives of a religious and/or nationalist bent, Orbán is the leader they wish Donald Trump could be — smart, politically savvy, and genuinely devoted to their ideals. Hungary is, for them, the equivalent of what Nordic countries are for the American left: proof of concept that their ideas could make the United States a better place.

Yet while the Nordic countries are among the world's freest democracies, Hungary has fallen into a form of autocracy. This presents a problem for Hungary's Western apostles, as they do not see themselves as advocates of American authoritarianism. Their encomia to Orbán tend to either overlook his authoritarian tendencies or deny them altogether, claiming that biased Western reporters and NGOs are unfairly demonizing Budapest for its cultural and nationalist beliefs.

"Hungary's leadership ... is more democratic than most of the countries that lecture Budapest about democracy," Catholic conservative Sohrab Ahmari writes in the New York Post. "Hungary's leaders have had it with Western liberal condescension and tutelage."

In reality, it's not the Orbán regime that's being persecuted: It's ordinary Hungarian citizens like András. The Western defenders of Orbán are so preoccupied by the culture wars over gender and immigration that they're overlooking who, exactly, they've gotten in bed with.

Understanding the conservative case for Orbán

Rod Dreher, a senior editor at the American Conservative, is one of a handful of influential Western writers courted by the Hungarian government. He's met with Orbán and even had plans to take up a fellowship in Budapest before the coronavirus scrambled everyone's lives.

While Dreher has a number of views that liberals find either kooky or reprehensible, he's a talented writer who's hugely influential on the religious and nationalist right. When I asked Dreher for the strongest possible version of the conservative case for Orbán, he sent me a series of lengthy and reflective notes on the subject.

"I want to be clear that I don't want to be understood as approving of everything Orbán does," he told me. "My approval of Orbán is general, not specific, in the same way that there are people who don't agree with everything Trump does, but who generally endorse him."

This "general endorsement" is rooted in a sense that the Hungarian leader challenges the liberal elite in a way few others do. In Dreher's analysis, the dominant mode of thinking in the West is secular and liberal — a political style that suffocates traditional religious observance and crushes specific national identities in favor of a homogenizing, cosmopolitan ideal.

"He [Orbán] knew that in 2015, to allow all the Middle Eastern immigrants to settle in Hungary would have been surrendering a Hungarian future for the Hungarian people
...and all the traditions and cultural memories they carry with them," Dreher told me. "Broadly speaking, the ideology of globalism presumes that those traditions and those memories are obstacles to creating an ideal world. That they are problems to be solved rather than a heritage to be cherished."

This sense of persecution at the hands of secular globalist elites is at the center of the mindset held by Dreher and much of the modern intellectual right. The contemporary fusion of religious and nationalist ideas has created a unified field theory of global cultural politics, defined by a sense that cosmopolitan liberal forces are threatening the very survival of traditional Christian communities. This line of thinking animates many prominent Trump supporters and allies who are Christian conservatives, including Attorney General Bill Barr.

For people like Dreher, who has written that "my politics are driven entirely by fear [of] the woke left," Orbán is Trump's more admirable twin. The American president is, as Dreher once argued, "a small, ugly, godless and graceless man" — though one he'd rather have in office than a progressive Democrat. The Hungarian leader, by contrast, is in his view both a true believer and a much more effective head of state.

"What I see in Orbán is one of the few major politicians in the West who seems to understand the importance of Christianity, and the importance of culture, and who is willing to defend these things against a very rich and powerful international establishment," he tells me. "I find myself saying of Orbán what I hear conservatives say when they explain why they instinctively love Trump: because he fights. The thing about Orbán is that unlike Trump, he fights, and he wins, and his victories are substantive."

What I find fascinating about Dreher's take — which largely typifies the pro-Orbán arguments among both religious conservatives and conservative nationalists — is that the issue of democracy plays a secondary role in the conversation.

Dreher doesn't admire Orbán's more authoritarian tendencies; indeed, he admits that the man has made mistakes, including in András's case. "I have no doubt that Viktor Orban is not the philosopher-king of my Christian conservative dreams," he tells me.

But whatever his concerns about threats to basic democratic principles like freedom of the press and fair elections, they don't play a primary role in his thinking. His evaluation of Orbán centers culture war issues like immigration and religion in public life, an ideologically driven view that obscures the damning democratic deficit in Hungary.

In our exchange, Dreher compared his admiration for Orbán to the way Hungarian conservatives he's met admired Trump. When he told his Hungarian acquaintances that he liked what Trump stood for in theory, but had serious issues with the man himself and the way he governs, they were incredulous: What's not to like about someone who's so willing to stick it to the globalist liberal elites?

They read Trump through Hungarian ideological categories, not American reality — and it showed.

"Maybe I'm seeing Orbán in the same way my Hungarian interlocutors see Trump. ... If I lived in Hungary, perhaps I would find a lot to dislike in his everyday governance," Dreher told me. "But he and other European politicians like him are speaking to needs, desires, and beliefs about religion, tradition, and national identity, that the center-right politicians have ignored."

Yet when it comes to modern Hungary, the authoritarian devil is truly in the everyday details.

The authoritarian strategy of plausible deniability

Orbán's effort to cultivate Western intellectuals — funding their work, inviting them to meet with him as honored guests in Budapest, speaking at their glitzy conferences — is part of a much more ambitious ideological campaign. He describes himself as the avatar of a new political model spreading across the West, which he terms "illiberal democracy" or "Christian democracy."

Advocates of illiberal democracy, like Trump and European far-right parties, aim to protect and deepen the specificity of each European country's religious and ethnic makeup — Hungary for the Hungarians, France for the French, and Germany for the Germans. Orbán frames this goal in precisely the culture war terms people like Dreher find so appealing.

"Liberal democracy is in favor of multiculturalism, while Christian democracy gives priority to Christian culture," he said in a 2018 speech. "Liberal democracy is pro-immigration, while Christian democracy is anti-immigration.
"

This language is at once incendiary and misleading. The rejection of "liberalism" infuriates mainstream European and Western intellectuals, thus further convincing the right that Orbán is the enemy of their primary enemy. But by framing his struggle as a conflict between two subspecies of democracy — between "liberal" and "Christian" democracy — Orbán obscures the fact that his regime is not any kind of democracy at all.

This insistence on falsely referring to his authoritarian regime as a democracy is vital to both its domestic and international project.

Orbán and much of his inner circle are lawyers by training; they have used this expertise to set up a political system that looks very much like a democracy, with elections and a theoretically free press, but isn't one. This gives intellectually sympathetic Westerners some room for self-delusion. They can examine Hungary, a country whose cultural politics they admire, and see a place that looks on the surface like a functioning democracy.

When such observers travel to Budapest and see what looks like a democracy in action, it becomes easier to dismiss concerns about authoritarian drift from journalists, pro-democracy NGOs, and academic experts as mere cultural prejudice: the liberal elite smearing a right-leaning elected leader as an authoritarian because they don't like his cultural politics. Orbán isn't an authoritarian, in this view, but the avatar of what the silent majority of Americans and Europeans really want.

A staple of these arguments is to make the point that Orbán's Fidesz party has won three consecutive elections.

"One of the strange things about modern political rhetoric is that Viktor Orbán should so often be described as a threat to 'democracy,' although his power had been won in free elections," Caldwell, the eminent conservative Europe reporter, writes in the Claremont Review of Books.

But after coming to power in 2010, Orbán rewrote Hungary's constitution and electoral rules to make it nigh impossible for the opposition to win power through elections. Tactics including extreme gerrymandering, rewriting campaign finance rules to give Fidesz a major leg up, appointing cronies to the country's constitutional court and election bureaucracy, and seizing control of nearly all media outlets have combined to render elections functionally non-competitive.

The mechanisms of control here are so subtle (who outside of Hungary cares about staffing choices at its electoral administration?) that it's easy for an intellectually sympathetic observer to dismiss them as overblown. In Caldwell's Claremont piece, for example, he challenges concerns about press freedom by pointing to Lajos Simicska — a media magnate and former Orbán right-hand man who turned on him in 2015 and campaigned against him in the 2018 election.

"When Orbán's friend Simicska broke with him, he used his newspaper Magyar Nemzet to attack Orbán in the most vulgar terms, comparing him to an ejaculation," Caldwell writes. "Orbán's powerful mandate, his two-thirds majority, gave him power to amend the country's constitution at will. This was not the same thing as authoritarianism — there aren't a lot of reporters in Beijing likening Xi Jinping to an ejaculation."

There aren't that many left in Hungary, either. After 2015, Orbán used his unfettered powers to demolish Simicska's business empire, cutting off government contracts not only for his old friend's media holdings but also for his construction and advertising firms. Simicska's businesses shrank and his personal fortune declined; the 2018 electioneering was a last-ditch effort to challenge a system that he himself described as a "dictatorship."

After Orbán's unfairly won 2018 victory, Simicska told allies that "it is clear that they [Fidesz] cannot be defeated through democratic elections." He shut down Magyar Nemzet; a government mouthpiece currently publishes under its name. Simicska eventually sold his entire media empire to a Fidesz ally, including the popular television station Hír TV — which, after the sale, openly proclaimed it would adopting a pro-government line.

Today, Simicska lives in an isolated village in western Hungary. His only remaining business interest is an agricultural firm owned by his wife.

This is obviously not a story about democratic resilience in Hungary: It's an instructive tale in the precise and subtle ways Orbán uses political patronage and the powers of the state to maintain political control. The Hungarian government is a species of authoritarianism — just a less coercive and more elusive version of its Chinese cousin.

"Clearly, Hungary is not a democracy. But understanding why requires a nuanced understanding of the line between democracy and autocracy," Lucan Ahmad Way and Steven Levitsky, two leading academic experts on democracy, write in the Washington Post.

This subtlety is what allows his conservative fan club in the West to operate with a clean conscience
. It's also what makes it so disturbing.

The Hungary model for America

There are examples throughout history of people on both left and right blinding themselves to the faults of their ideological allies. The great British playwright George Bernard Shaw saw Josef Stalin as a shining example of Shaw's own egalitarian values. Friedrich von Hayek, arguably the defining libertarian economist, defended Augusto Pinochet's murderous dictatorship in Chile on grounds that the dictator was friendly to the free market.

Orbán's crimes, of course, pale in comparison to Stalin's or Pinochet's. If such great thinkers in history can trick themselves into forgiving much more egregious assaults on human rights and democracy, it's understandable that modern conservatives might fall prey to the same tendency to see the best in ideologically simpatico authoritarians.

But the fact that this tendency is understandable doesn't mean it's excusable — or without its own set of dangers.

In the United States, the Republican Party has shown a disturbing willingness to engage in Fidesz-like tactics to undermine the fairness of the political process. The two parties evolved independently, for their own domestic reasons, but seem to have converged on a similar willingness to undermine the fairness of elections behind the scenes.

Extreme gerrymandering, voter ID laws, purging nonvoters from the voting rolls, seizing power from duly elected Democratic governors, packing courts with partisan judges, creating a media propaganda network that its partisans consume to the exclusion of other sources — all Republican approaches that, with some nouns changed, could easily describe Fidesz's techniques for hollowing out from democracy from within
.

In this respect, Hungary really is a model for America. It's not a blueprint anyone is consciously aping, but proof that a ruthless party with less-than-majority support in the public can take durable control of political institutions while still successfully maintaining a democratic veneer.

Conservative intellectuals bear a special obligation to call attention to this dangerous process. It's always easier for writers and intellectuals to criticize the opposing side precisely because it's less effectual: Your targets already don't pay attention to you, and your audience already agrees with your critique. When your "team" is crossing lines, criticizing it is much more likely to ruffle feathers — but also more likely to change minds.

The Hungary situation has been a trial in this regard, a way of assessing conservative intellectuals' ability to perform this vital form of self-policing.

I find Orban's attack on trans rights and treatment of migrants reprehensible, but I don't expect those on the broader right to agree with me. I do, however, believe they ought to have a baseline commitment to democratic norms: a sense that disagreement itself is not illegitimate, and that governments that use their powers to crush their opponents can never be fundamentally admirable.

Yet that's not what has happened. Much of the conservative leadership cannot break out of their sense of victimhood; the world is a struggle between righteous conservatives and oppressive secular progressives. It does not compute, to them, that a traditionalist regime might actually be the one mistreating its opponents and attacking democracy
; they come up with excuses for whatever Orbán is doing, offering misleading half-truths that at times literally echo government propaganda.

If these thinkers continue to insist that Hungary is just another democracy — despite copious evidence to the contrary — how can we expect them to call out the same, more embryonic process of authoritarianization happening at home? If American conservatives won't turn on a foreign country's leadership after it crosses the line, what reason would we have to believe that they'd be capable of doing the same thing when the stakes for them are higher and the enemies more deeply hated?

The admiration for Orbán has convinced me that, no matter how far down the Fidesz path the GOP goes, many conservative intellectuals will use the same culture war uber alles logic to justify its trampling over American democracy.

Hungary is a test for these American thinkers. And they flunked it.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on May 22, 2020, 01:18:10 PM
Konrad Adenauer must be rolling in his grave with their appropriation of the "Christian democracy" label.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: frunk on May 22, 2020, 02:00:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 22, 2020, 01:18:10 PM
Konrad Adenauer must be rolling in his grave with their appropriation of the "Christian democracy" label.

It doesn't help that they aren't Holy, Roman or an Empire.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on May 22, 2020, 02:34:31 PM
Oddest bit there was they look up to Hungary in the way the left look up to Scandinavia.
Because they actually do want a lower quality of life.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 02:37:48 PM
What's a conservative intellectual?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on May 22, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 02:37:48 PM
What's a conservative intellectual?

Someone who is conservative on intelligence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on May 22, 2020, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 02:37:48 PM
What's a conservative intellectual?

A species that is now all but extinct.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on May 22, 2020, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2020, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 02:37:48 PM
What's a conservative intellectual?

A species that is now all but extinct.

I dunno - I follow a bunch of them on Twitter and they're all very much alive.  David Frum, Jonah Goldberg, David French, Tom Nichols, William Kristol.  They're more authors/pundits than pure intellectuals, but all conservative, and all Trump-hostile.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on May 22, 2020, 04:04:52 PM
Being trump hostile does not make one an intellectual - merely sane.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 22, 2020, 04:46:49 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2020, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2020, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 02:37:48 PM
What's a conservative intellectual?

A species that is now all but extinct.

I dunno - I follow a bunch of them on Twitter and they're all very much alive.  David Frum, Jonah Goldberg, David French, Tom Nichols, William Kristol.  They're more authors/pundits than pure intellectuals, but all conservative, and all Trump-hostile.
I don't know the extent that works any more. I like them but there is a slight element of the "the Soviet Union wasn't real Communism" to them.

On this whole stuff, currently reading The Light That Failed which I strongly recommend. Really thought-provoking, insightful stuff. Summary from Foreign Policy:
Quote
The Light That Failed: Why the West Is Losing the Fight for Democracy
By Ivan Krastev and Stephen Holmes
Reviewed By G. John Ikenberry
March/April 2020
In this original and deeply thought-provoking study, Krastev and Holmes argue that the retreat from liberal democracy in eastern Europe and elsewhere is rooted in liberalism's post-1989 global triumph. With the collapse of communism, Western liberalism had no rival. U.S. unipolarity set the stage, and liberal democracy became an all-encompassing model of modernity. What followed was "copycat Westernization," in which countries all over the world found themselves pressured to mimic the institutions, values, and ways of life of the United States and western Europe. In eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, this mimicry was all the more painful because these same countries had just been released from the ideological and institutional impositions of the Soviet era; now, they were again adopting the ideas and identities of a superpower, albeit under less duress. The result has been a deep and festering resentment in those societies, a collective "psychological stress" that has culminated in a widespread political backlash against liberalism. In Krastev and Holmes's account, the right-wing politics coming to the fore in Hungary, Poland, and other postcommunist countries has less to do with the reassertion of primordial nationalist and illiberal identities than with a perceived need on the part of citizens in those places for independence, recognition, and dignity. The authors argue that, especially after the long wake of the 2008 financial crisis, Western defenders of liberal democracy need to offer a more realistic vision of world order, making room for alternative models while maintaining faith in the resilience of liberalism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on May 22, 2020, 04:49:53 PM
I heard the authors on a podcast - definitely looking forward to reading this.

You might find this interesting

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/gelber-prize-winners-blame-politics-of-imitation-for-extremism-in-central-europe-1.5539582

I recommend you check out the Ideas catalog.  Lots of good stuff in there.  :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 08:08:36 AM
50-odd people protest in cars: they get fined by police.

Thousands of football hooligans and other far-righters hold an openly anti-gypsy remembrance rally (on occasion of a white football fan kid murdered by allegedly gypsies) that specifically did not receive police approval due to the health crisis: barely any police presence, let alone fines or arrests.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--RSMRxz36--/w_1160/7SX6DJlIDMMKtXb2s.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 08:15:03 AM
Make me a sandwich, hun!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 29, 2020, 08:16:28 AM
u ok, hun?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 08:20:46 AM
Man with sweaters tighten to their waist lose all credibility.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 08:28:00 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 08:20:46 AM
Man with sweaters tighten to their waist lose all credibility.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 09:04:55 PM
I'm with Tamas.  Anything is better than holding it in your hand.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on May 29, 2020, 09:12:04 PM
They're wearing masks, so they must be antifa leftists paid by George Soros to promote the coronavirus hoax.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
So this is arguably more a European issue than a Hungarian one. But the EPP Committee on Fidesz basically stopped their work, former Chancellor Schussel more or less accused this just being cancelled by Tusk.

So the chair of the EPP Committee on Fidesz and former President of the Council, Herman Van Rompuy, as issued a statement clarifying the situation:
QuoteThis is simply a wrong presentation of events. The Evaluation Committee did not manage to agree on what has to happen in Hungary - even though our work conducted over the months clearly showed that there were many critical issues to be addressed in the areas of the rule of law, freedom of the media, science and culture. Our common conclusion was that no sufficient progress was made since the decision on the suspension of Fidesz. Because of the disagreement in the Committee on a common approach, it was me who proposed to end the work of the Committee. It simply made no sense to continue this work.

This feels like a characteristic statement of the issues the European centre-right has had dealing with Fidesz - even though it's related to very critical issues. So while suspended, Fidesz remains in the mainstream family of centre-righ parties in Europe <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 11:54:20 AM
Wolfgang "if we come 3rd in the election, we go into opposition" Schüssel :D

Of course when they came 3rd they ended up in a coalition with the second strongest party, FPÖ, with him as chancellor (leading to Austria being shunned/embargoes by the rest of the EU). And when the BZÖ under Haider split off from the FPÖ, instead of calling new elections he just switched to his coalition over to the BZÖ splitters.

Fuck that guy, only thing he's notable for is being a manipulative tactician. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2020, 04:40:37 AM
In 2019, as part of an international investigation, the Peruvian ambassador of Hungary was arrested in Peru, after police found 19 THOUSAND images of child pornography on his computer.

He was shipped home by the Hungarian police to face trial.

Whic has just concluded. He is getting 1 year in prison suspended for three years, following his admission of guilt.  :huh:

His lawyer pointed out that ex-ambassador, Gabor Kaletta, is a "deeply religious, practicing Christian" who "led an exemplary life of an attorney". Kaletta himself also pointed out the plight of his fate as he lost 60 pounds and his family has been harassed by anonymous phone calls.

The poor guy, such a victim. :(


Apparently the judge said that since the prosecution asked for this suspended sentence in case of admission, he cannot give a harsher one. Also he said the court agreed with the prosecution that considering the extenuating (must be his Church-going nature) and aggravating circumstances they found no need for that harsher sentence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 02, 2020, 11:19:15 AM
https://insighthungary.444.hu/2020/07/02/hungarian-ambassador-receives-one-year-suspended-sentence-for-possession-of-child-pornography

QuoteHungarian ambassador receives one year suspended sentence for possession of child pornography

Former Hungarian ambassador to Peru Gábor Kaleta was sentenced by a Budapest court on Thursday to a one year suspended prison sentence for possession of more than 19,000 pornographic images of minors.

A judge suspended Kaleta's sentence for two-and-a-half years, and ordered him to pay a fine of Ft 540,000 (€1,500). If the former ambassador does not commit a crime within that time period, he will serve no time in prison.

Kaleta's lawyer argued that his client had "lived an exemplary life as a lawyer in which he entered a diplomatic career and served his country. He is a deeply religious person that regularly practices his faith." Kaleta has lost 30 kilos since being implicated in the crimes, and the case has deeply affected his family, the lawyer said.

In the spring of 2019, Hungarian secret services were informed by an American cybercrime unit that it had been monitoring Kaleta's online activities as part of an investigation into an international pedophile ring. The ambassador was then escorted from Peru to Hungary by Hungarian authorities, but the case was kept quiet in Hungary, reportedly at the request of US authorities who feared publicity could jeopardize their ongoing investigation.

However, even after the US investigation was closed, Kaleta's case was kept secret by the Hungarian government and prosecutor's office for more than a year before first being reported on by Index.hu. He was reportedly immediately stripped of his diplomatic rank after being taken into custody, and charged in November of last year.

Kaleta served as the ambassador to Peru from 2017 until his arrest, and was earlier the press officer for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs from 2012.


That rather seems like a slap on the wrist.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 02, 2020, 11:56:57 AM
I just posted about it yesterday :p

The regime works like organised crime. They want obedience but if you are loyal you get protection from the outside world.

A similarly disgusting case was when several years ago a gynecologist, nephew of a prestigious party member mutilated his ex-girlfriend by pouring some base liquid on her private parts causing severe burns and, how to put it nicely, unable to get pregnant the regular way.

The guy ALMOST got away with it. He assaulted the woman in a mask but he used an injected anaesthetic to knock her out for the mutilation that not only was a type used in his hospital but also police found a syringe with the stuff in it in his trunk. Plus some witnesses could place his car at the scene but I dont remember all the details. There was a lot of things that made it evident it was him.

Despite all that, once the police figured out who he was, they wanted to drop the case for lack of evidence. The victim had to tour the media and bang up a scandal to have the case reopened.

What she earned was years of torture as the legal process was dragged out as long as possible. I remember she had to testify in front of the court repeating the details and he nature of her injuries several times, I think the last one was fairly recently.

The guy ended up being sentenced to jail but it is only now, after about a decade that he will actually start serving it.


At some point, a pro government TV (might have been the state TV I don't remember) even ran an interview with him where they worked hard to portrait him as the victim.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2020, 05:06:52 AM
https://insighthungary.444.hu/2020/07/22/indexhu-editor-in-chief-fired-amid-fears-of-takeover


This really has been going on for a decade now. In fact, 444.hu that I just linked above was created by one of the Index.hu founders after the first exodus of journalists, when the first fairly gentle nudging and censoring started.



I guess it's hard to explain to a foreigner the implication and size of this. For around 20 years now Index.hu has been THE Internet news source of Hungary. Their market share and number of visitors are staggeringly high. There are lots more content than just politics, and what is probably the most important to the Footballer God King Dear Leader is that due to old habits, a huge number of his supporters also visit the site regularly. Which, at this point, make it the ONLY source of non-Orban approved news to reach those people.

Over those 20 years there was just one semi-competitor to Index, it was a similar site called Origo. It ended up being owned by the German T-Systems company and they ended up handing it over to government oligarchs in exchange of some punitive taxes dropped. It has now become a cesspit of ridiculously vile propaganda, not even a shadow of what it was.

The plans for Index are probably more soft-handed then that. A turn away from political news, heavy censoring of those could see the site retain its viewers while showing a more serene, happy and prosperous country. Will see. The sort of paper-based equivalent of Index, a long-standing leftist paper called Nepszabadsag was also acquired by Orban's oligarchs years ago, and then abruptly closed down with laughable excuses of financial troubles (was pretty much the only newspaper left turning a healthy profit) after they did some investigate journalism on the shady dealings of one of Orban's lieutenants. So I guess the question is if they want to set an example with Index or not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2020, 08:51:34 AM
https://index.hu/english/2020/07/24/editorial_board_of_index_resigns/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2020, 12:43:31 PM
Seems like almost the entire staff is following the editorial board, as 80 people have resigned.

That's very brave of them and deserve respect for the gesture, as I am not sure if even a dozen similar job openings can be made in Hungary for online content creators or journalists where they can avoid being howling government dogs.

Also, a few thousand people are marching to Orban's office (meaning the Buda castle) in protest. It's a pre-announced protest and the police have given permission for mask wearing, as that is forbidden by law on protests (since a year or two) normally.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--ecG2Ayzo--/w_1160/7Txb8yQQGazaWWLgs.jpeg)

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--nz64wbdi--/w_1160/7Txb8MnNvfglWfLms.jpeg)

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--GloFr6In--/w_1160/7TxpxQvZBGOfU7K4s.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 24, 2020, 01:08:22 PM
Incredibly grim :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 11, 2020, 09:51:06 AM
Thought this was a compelling, strong piece. About Bulgaria but I thought there were a lot of similarities: tepid condemnation of an EPP "family" party/ally, failure to really do anything on justice, but ongoing corruption from structural funds:
QuoteEU's credibility is at stake over Bulgaria, says reformist leader
Hristo Ivanov says Germany and the Commission have sold themselves too cheaply to ensure Borissov's loyalty.
By Christian Oliver   
8/10/20, 7:00 AM CET
Updated 8/11/20, 9:44 AM CET


The EU's credibility as a custodian of the rule of law is on the line over its failure to respond to a spiraling corruption crisis in Bulgaria, according to a reformist party leader whose anti-graft crusade has helped drive major street protests every night for almost five weeks.

Hristo Ivanov, a former justice minister who now heads the anti-corruption Yes Bulgaria party, insists that Brussels and Berlin have to take responsibility for helping deliver the Bulgarian judiciary and other key institutions into the clutches of an oligarchic mafia.

By going soft on supervision of judicial reforms, while simultaneously stoking the corruption with European funds, the EU has a lot to answer for, he argues.


"If the EU is unable to guarantee minimal standards of rule of law in a member state as weak ... as Bulgaria, what is it good for?" Ivanov asked in an interview with POLITICO.

He added that the European Commission, which is supposed to act as a guarantor of the EU treaties, "wilfully closed its eyes to what is happening in Bulgaria," even though European funds are the mafia's lifeblood. "This level of state capture in Bulgaria was only made possible by the easy drug of EU funds," he complained.

Over the past few months, Ivanov and other campaigners have stitched together an unprecedently clear picture of how a cadre of oligarchs has effectively established a parallel state in Bulgaria that exerts power through business, the judiciary, the media, police and security apparatus. Bulgaria's mafia has its origins in the Communist-era spy service, and has seized on the powerlessness of EU judicial oversight to extend its reach via time-honored tactics of menaces and kompromat.

European leaders are conspicuously silent about the mounting evidence that an EU country is brazenly flouting the bloc's democratic and legal norms, and have failed to criticize Sofia over police brutality against anti-corruption protesters and attacks on reporters.

Ivanov argued that Brussels and Berlin turn a blind eye to Bulgaria's mafia because Prime Minister Boyko Borissov, whom the protesters see as a facilitator of the abuses, is a crucial ally of the Christian Democrats of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on the EU stage. Brussels and Germany also see the burly former bodyguard as dependable in handling relations with Turkey, Ivanov said.

"It's a very typical thing: An empire is at its point of eclipse when it allows its border policy to be handled by local warlords," he said. "The thing is that the unequivocal support of Germany and the European Commission for Borissov is selling the credibility and political capital of Europe and Germany too cheaply. They could have gained the same level of cooperation without being so unprincipled and without demoralizing the Bulgarian public."


Ivanov stressed that the Bulgarian public's main expectation of Brussels was not EU cash, which Borissov often boasts of securing. Instead, he said people wanted the EU to help rescue the country's hijacked justice system by demanding genuine progress against corruption in return for funds.

Ivanov argued Borissov had, however, charmed Merkel through his unwavering loyalty to her European People's Party, and by acting as the endearing "simpleton" at European Council summits. He quipped that Borissov must remind her of the accommodating attendants that East Germans met on their socialist-era trips to Bulgaria's beaches. "He's obliging as a bellboy, with that specific Balkan charm."

A spokesman for Borissov's political party, GERB, insisted there was "no tolerance for corruption in GERB and the government. Prime Minister Borissov has repeatedly declared that he will not protect anyone accused of corruption."

Indeed, Borissov is keen to cast himself as the clean pair of hands who kept EU funds running after corruption in a Socialist Party government caused them to be cut in 2008. He is particularly proud of the motorways built with EU money during his mandates.


While Bulgaria's parallel state is a complex web, Ivanov and the protesters are focusing their attention on the role of two prominent behind-the-scenes power brokers from the country's ethnic Turkish party: Ahmed Dogan, the party's former leader, and media mogul Delyan Peevski.

Ivanov triggered the current round of protests — the largest in seven years — through a video stunt that illustrated how Dogan was illegally occupying a stretch of coastline as his headquarters, and was guarded by state security, even though he has no public role. Since Ivanov's beach landing in a rubber dingy on July 7, Dogan and Peevski have had to give up their bodyguards, and the top general of state security had to resign.

Borissov has been reluctant to challenge Dogan and Peevski, and the protesters are calling for his resignation partly because of his ties to the duo. Ivanov describes the power-sharing arrangement of the state as: "Borissov is king by day, Peevski is king by night." The spokesperson for GERB insisted, however, that the government and the ethnic Turkish party were not working as a coalition.

The biggest single concern is the justice system, as increasing testimony emerges about how the judiciary has been weaponized as a tool for threats, extortion and state takeovers. The tens of thousands of protesters packing the streets of Sofia and other cities are calling not only for Borissov's resignation but also for Chief Prosecutor Ivan Geshev to quit. Both men are making it clear that they are not budging.

Ivanov stressed the EU could not pretend that Bulgaria's rule-of-law failings were a domestic concern, especially since the country was in such a mess thanks to the failure of the EU's Cooperation and Verification Mechanism on judicial reform. The Commission has lately given Bulgaria strangely rosy reports, while testimony now suggests a mafia takeover was deepening.

"This is not a domestic question, because the biggest, easiest corruption concerns European funds," Ivanov argued, adding that Bulgaria's unaccountability within the EU had significant ramifications for the single market, particularly when coupled with problems such as smuggling, organized crime and terrorism.

"[Bulgaria's corruption] is a matter of financial interest and national security to every European citizen ... You can come on vacation to Bulgaria and become the guest of our lack of rule of law; you can have a business in Bulgaria, and it can be stolen from you."

Ivanov resigned as justice minister in 2015 when his attempts to force through judicial reform in a Borissov government were thwarted, but he also stressed that he received no support from the EU. "My decision to become a minister was not based on the illusion that Borissov wants reform. I wanted to see, if there is a real reformer in the ministry of justice, would there be enough European support for me? My conclusion unequivocally was there was none from Mr. [Frans] Timmermans, who was responsible, as first vice president of the Commission.

"We have a lot of experience of trying to draw the attention of the competent institutions to euro-fund abuses, and they are extremely generous with Bulgaria. Somebody in Berlin is making a cynical calculus: a billion more or less, who cares? As long as you buy the good favors of Borissov and you keep him stable ... who cares about some 'tips'?"

Responding to Ivanov's criticism of the Cooperation and Verification Mechanism, the European Commission said Bulgaria had made "sufficient" progress on judicial reform, in line with its commitments upon joining the EU, but still needed "continued" implementation of reforms on "judicial independence and the fight against corruption."

Ivanov is now pushing for another shot at judicial reform through an election, next spring at the latest, which he hopes will center on a legal shake-up.

In a backdrop to the protests, a full oligarch-versus-oligarch war appears to have erupted. Geshev and the prosecutors portray themselves as taking down corrupt tycoons, while the oligarchs and other businessmen they are targeting are going public with tales of extortion with menaces. In an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the protest movement, the judiciary camp accuses the moguls they are probing — like the casino baron Vasil "The Skull" Bozhkov — of funding the demonstrators.

To Ivanov, this mud-slinging among the elite is a sign that the oligarchic system is reaching endgame.

"The system is reaching a point where it is unraveling."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 11, 2020, 10:50:30 AM
It is quite interesting, in a terrible way, how an EU program meant to uplift poorer regions ended up triggering the renaissance of East European feudalism.


IDK how far along they are in Bulgaria but the decisive thing for Orban has been the EU grants I feel. It meant he and his vassals gained such a powerful financial position over the rest of the economy, that they simply could buy most of the things they could not take. Case in point Index.hu above. Sure, they channel out Hungarian taxpayer money as well to themselves as much as they can (a latest thing I remember is major power plant that was modernised while in public ownership, sold to a henchman for pennies, he quickly ran it into the ground financially, then the state bought it back to "save it" for some ridiculously high price), but it was EU funds that gave them the edge over other power blocks in the country.

What makes it extra painful of course is that these funds could have made a major difference but if you spend them properly it is harder to steal most of them, so it is one more generational opportunity wasted. It is little consolation that it is far from being the first in the country's history.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 12, 2020, 07:02:24 AM
Very predictably I guess, news on Belarus was minimal in the Hungarian state TV. In their newsblock yesterday it was the 5th item and they spent about 30 seconds on it, after 4.5 minutes of Corona and Russian vaccine, 3.5 minutes of mass migration everyhwere omg, 2.5 minutes of Chicago riots, and 0.5 minute of shooting in DC.

The footage used for the quick news was 3-4 riot police helplessly being surrounded by an angry crowd on some sidewalk when they tried to arrest somebody. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 13, 2020, 02:30:58 AM
German paper Die Zeit reports on Hungary signing a billion dollar deal with the US for missile systems. For some reason they call Hungary "former Soviet Republic", though. Twice! :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2020, 06:11:52 AM
Orban, sorry, I mean Attila Peterfalvi, the leader of the "independent" Data Protection Authority has started his rumblings against social media, and how they should stop blocking accounts of Hungarians, and how data of Hungarian citizens should only be stored in Hungary.

It is quite clearly the first gentle step toward controlling social media Turkey/Russia style. It is going to be a multiple years process of boiling a live frog, like with everything else. I was just reading an interview with this Peterfalvi guy and this dance of him "not caring about politics" etc dance of "just doing my job" is so tiring.

There he was, rallying against profile locks (couldn't name a single example though) while dismissing the examples by the journalist, that already have been a couple of cases during the pandemic emergency that people were arrested for Facebook comments. (Also there was a guy who called some local Fidesz dignitary "dick" on FB and got a three year suspended prison sentence for it).

It is especially tiring because nobody really cares at this stage, and by the time they start caring it will be way too late. And this is despite the same dance happening with every platform of free speech in the country.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 13, 2020, 06:53:16 AM
In fairness this may just be because of the recent CJEU judgment on data transfers to the US (which was against Facebook):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53418898

And most of the social media companies are mainly regulated by the Irish data protection regulator (which is, arguably, an issue) so it's not necessarily something the Hungarian regulator could do anything about.

There's a lot of concern across multiple European regulators about the social media companies (rightly) and I think there's growing annoyance that the Irish regulator may be too close to the tech sector in Ireland and, also, that they just don't have the resources to actually effectively regulate these entities. I think Amazon is in Luxembourg, but the Irish data protection regulator (with 200 employees) is the lead authority for regulating Facebook, Google and Apple use of data across the EU which is potentially problematic.

Edit: In fairness the French regulator have taken the lead in basically ignoring that and saying that for x, y and z reason's the Irish regulator shouldn't have jurisdiction so France will do their own thing :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2020, 07:17:59 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 13, 2020, 06:53:16 AM
In fairness this may just be because of the recent CJEU judgment on data transfers to the US (which was against Facebook):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53418898

And most of the social media companies are mainly regulated by the Irish data protection regulator (which is, arguably, an issue) so it's not necessarily something the Hungarian regulator could do anything about.

There's a lot of concern across multiple European regulators about the social media companies (rightly) and I think there's growing annoyance that the Irish regulator may be too close to the tech sector in Ireland and, also, that they just don't have the resources to actually effectively regulate these entities. I think Amazon is in Luxembourg, but the Irish data protection regulator (with 200 employees) is the lead authority for regulating Facebook, Google and Apple use of data across the EU which is potentially problematic.

Edit: In fairness the French regulator have taken the lead in basically ignoring that and saying that for x, y and z reason's the Irish regulator shouldn't have jurisdiction so France will do their own thing :lol:

Sure, but I guarantee you this will be used to further their agenda. Especially since, as you point out, it's not like they can do anything about the nominal issue. But there can be a lot of convenient legislation passed under its pretence
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 03, 2020, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 01, 2020, 04:40:37 AM
In 2019, as part of an international investigation, the Peruvian ambassador of Hungary was arrested in Peru, after police found 19 THOUSAND images of child pornography on his computer.

He was shipped home by the Hungarian police to face trial.

Whic has just concluded. He is getting 1 year in prison suspended for three years, following his admission of guilt.  :huh:

His lawyer pointed out that ex-ambassador, Gabor Kaletta, is a "deeply religious, practicing Christian" who "led an exemplary life of an attorney". Kaletta himself also pointed out the plight of his fate as he lost 60 pounds and his family has been harassed by anonymous phone calls.

The poor guy, such a victim. :(


Apparently the judge said that since the prosecution asked for this suspended sentence in case of admission, he cannot give a harsher one. Also he said the court agreed with the prosecution that considering the extenuating (must be his Church-going nature) and aggravating circumstances they found no need for that harsher sentence.

Remember this pedo ambassador with the 19 thousand images on his PC? He got 1 year in prison suspended for 3 years.


A guy with no previous record who threw 2 (two) eggs toward the riot police during some 2018 protests got a sentence of 1 year and 4 months suspended for 2 years for it.

And this is an EU member country.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
I don't know why the EU tolerates these dictatorships. It is EU money they props them up and I thought the EU was supposed to be about spreading Liberal Democracy not crushing it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 03, 2020, 02:35:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
I don't know why the EU tolerates these dictatorships. It is EU money they props them up and I thought the EU was supposed to be about spreading Liberal Democracy not crushing it.

Totally, if EU funds got removed they would topple in a few years. They work in the classical feudalistic way of having to have a constant stream of gifts and perks toward retainers and that is mostly financed from EU grants at the moment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 02:55:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
I don't know why the EU tolerates these dictatorships. It is EU money they props them up and I thought the EU was supposed to be about spreading Liberal Democracy not crushing it.
I mean the European People's Party (the broad pro-European centre-right "family" of parties) haven't even kicked Fidesz out, far less action against Hungary.

The EPP includes the CDU-CSU, the Republicans in France, PP. From what I've read the CSU actually has a very close relationship with Fidesz (plus economic links between Bavaria and Hungary are particularly strong). Not sure how much of a factor that is within the EPP but it's incredible that they've not taken any action.

QuoteTotally, if EU funds got removed they would topple in a few years. They work in the classical feudalistic way of having to have a constant stream of gifts and perks toward retainers and that is mostly financed from EU grants at the moment.
:lol: That feudal point is also not a million miles from that Bulgarian anti-corruption politicians comment on the EU relationship with Hungary, Bulgaria etc: "It's a very typical thing: An empire is at its point of eclipse when it allows its border policy to be handled by local warlords."

Incidentally would recommend The Light that Failed. Very interesting so far.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 03, 2020, 03:10:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
I don't know why the EU tolerates these dictatorships. It is EU money they props them up and I thought the EU was supposed to be about spreading Liberal Democracy not crushing it.

why would they? there's a country with political prisoners too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 03, 2020, 03:10:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
I don't know why the EU tolerates these dictatorships. It is EU money they props them up and I thought the EU was supposed to be about spreading Liberal Democracy not crushing it.

why would they? there's a country with political prisoners too.

For the reasons I just listed :mellow:

There is the tax payer going just to pay for a corrupt incompetent autocratic government and then there is the whole idea that this was supposed to be about preserving peace, prosperity, and proper European values.

I mean Hungary has been at this for a long time now. It is not like there is any expectation the situation will change at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 03, 2020, 05:54:45 PM
Why does America tolerate the GOP? It's just one of those things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 05, 2020, 07:39:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 03, 2020, 03:10:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
I don't know why the EU tolerates these dictatorships. It is EU money they props them up and I thought the EU was supposed to be about spreading Liberal Democracy not crushing it.

why would they? there's a country with political prisoners too.

For the reasons I just listed :mellow:

There is the tax payer going just to pay for a corrupt incompetent autocratic government and then there is the whole idea that this was supposed to be about preserving peace, prosperity, and proper European values.

I mean Hungary has been at this for a long time now. It is not like there is any expectation the situation will change at some point in the future.

don't be naive. The EU is about power and money. The rest is windowdressing to fool the subjects
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 05, 2020, 02:04:36 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 05, 2020, 07:39:59 AM
don't be naive. The EU is about power and money. The rest is windowdressing to fool the subjects

Well everything is about power and money at least a little bit, but organizations still have interests. The money is supposed to be developing these poorer places so they can make more money there and have democratic accountable governments because they want rule of law so that money can be protected. Those interests go right along with what I am saying. Even from a strictly power and money point of view just proping up incompetent corrupt nationalist governments is against their interests...long term. There is probably some other interests at work though. Right now it just looks like they are investing expecting a zero percent return, which is an odd strategy if you want power and money.

Don't be so cynical that you loose common sense and basic intelligence and just because you see boogeymen everywhere.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on September 05, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 05, 2020, 02:04:36 PMWell everything is about power and money at least a little bit, but organizations still have interests. The money is supposed to be developing these poorer places so they can make more money there and have democratic accountable governments because they want rule of law so that money can be protected. Those interests go right along with what I am saying. Even from a strictly power and money point of view just proping up incompetent corrupt nationalist governments is against their interests...long term. There is probably some other interests at work though. Right now it just looks like they are investing expecting a zero percent return, which is an odd strategy if you want power and money.

Don't be so cynical that you loose common sense and basic intelligence and just because you see boogeymen everywhere.
I've mentioned it already but I really recommend The Light that Failed on this.

Edit: and I think it's very relevant for the US right now too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on September 10, 2020, 05:14:32 AM
Bit of a nuclear option from Rutte in the Dutch Parliament saying the ultimate choice on rule of law could be to "re-establish the EU without Hungary and Poland". He also called for the European Parliament to increase the pressure because Hungary and Poland veto measures against the other member state at the Council level, interestingly apparently Cyprus are currently vetoing any EU level response on Belarus.

It seems a pretty big deal, even though the Dutch have been particularly annoyed with the lack of "punishment" for Hungary and Poland for a while. Having said that it feels like there's a pretty fundamental design flaw if it is easier to entirely re-found the EU without certain members than take action against them :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 11, 2020, 04:22:28 AM
(https://i.redd.it/q1pg2g7pmbm51.jpg)

:o
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 12, 2020, 03:16:49 AM
Told ya.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 12, 2020, 03:33:12 AM
As usual Sweden is lagging.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 16, 2020, 04:32:03 AM
A government/Fidesz related "legal consultancy" have been doing a weird, quite Erdogan-esque "influencing" campaign, where they published an uplitfing video about Hungarian history on www.keszuljetek.hu which translates to "be ready/prepare", and then from who knows what funding they have been having stills from that short movie as newspaper and poster ads all over the place:

(https://www.klubradio.hu/data/keszuljetek_facebook.jpg)

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--Catrw_50--/w_1160/7VJI6H9RZ8FNJMJMs.jpeg)

"Justice, strength, ascension"

(https://scontent.fgba1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/118765320_3600259976672715_8015768897158268464_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=CZnqCTQP8akAX_f1quf&_nc_ht=scontent.fgba1-1.fna&tp=6&oh=3498d73264d2af5b3e295d957e660460&oe=5F873C4A)

"Fight, nation, independence".


:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 16, 2020, 04:43:18 AM
"Man, camera, TV"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Agelastus on September 16, 2020, 06:52:34 AM
"Strength" in Hungarian is "Ero"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 16, 2020, 08:28:08 AM
The fact that the two times Hungary became a free nation it made Horthy and Orban its leaders kind of undermines the patriotic message there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 16, 2020, 08:43:32 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on September 16, 2020, 06:52:34 AM
"Strength" in Hungarian is "Ero"?

Yes but it is probably pronounced differently than you think :) Here it is pronounced: https://youtu.be/KXtpmZmTBVs?t=10
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2020, 09:02:11 AM
Pronounced [erö], so no big deal.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 06, 2020, 07:21:29 AM
The ECJ has ruled Hungary's law regulationg higher education (the one used against Central European University, the one funded by Soros) to go against EU law.

QuoteECJ rules against Hungary's higher education law
The European Court of Justice has ruled that a law on foreign universities operating in Hungary breaches EU law. The measure forced a Budapest university founded by US-Hungarian billionaire George Soros to move abroad.

The EU's top court on Tuesday ruled that a Hungarian law that forced the relocation of Central European University (CEU) out of the country was not in line with EU law.

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled against Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government, saying "the conditions introduced by Hungary to enable foreign higher education institutions to carry out their activities in its territory are incompatible with EU law."

Part of the law required foreign universities operating in Hungary to strike a bilateral agreement between the country's nationalist government and the universities' country of origin, and also to offer teaching services in its home country.

Orban vs. Soros
The government had rejected a claim by the George Soros-founded CEU that it complied with the controversial law requiring foreign-headquartered universities to operate a campus in their home country.

The ECJ said this infringed on World Trade Organization rules on fair market access and acted contrary to the provisions of the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights, which protects academic freedom and the freedom to conduct a business.

The CEU — which is registered in the United States where Soros lives but has its main campus in Budapest — said it had complied with the law after opening a facility in the US state of New York.

Crackdown on academic freedom
But a Hungarian government spokesperson called the American site "a Potemkin campus" [a reference to the fake villages reportedly set up in imperial Russia to impress the visiting Empress Catherine II — Editor's note] that failed to satisfy the law.

Attracting students from over 100 countries and offering US-accredited master's programs, CEU, founded in 1991, had long been seen by Orban as a hostile bastion of liberalism.

CEU moved largely to Vienna in 2019 in light of Orban's legal challenges.

Orban's government has clamped down on academic freedom more broadly in recent years, for example, by banning universities from teaching gender studies.

The Hungarian leader has also targeted Soros personally, accusing the Hungarian-born Jewish philanthropist of destroying European civilization by promoting illegal immigration into the country.

Soros has said his support for refugees is part of a larger humanitarian mission to back open societies around the world.

In May 2017, a Soros-backed non-governmental organization, Open Society Foundation, was forced to move its staff and offices to Germany from Hungary after Orban's government instituted new regulations against foreign-funded NGOs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 06, 2020, 09:45:47 AM
Only 2.5 years after the demonstrations against this were finally dispersed by the police, well done ECJ :cheers:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 06, 2020, 10:15:18 AM
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 06, 2020, 10:21:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 06, 2020, 10:15:18 AM
:rolleyes:
I mean it is a fair point.

The EU (justifiably) launched legal action over a proposed British law that might breach the Withdrawal Agreement and have suggested they'll use the court's fast-track procedures that can get a ruling in a few months (the average time in the CJEU is about 18-24 months). It's not beyond the power of the Commission to have tried to expedite this, or just treat the other cases against Hungary and Poland with a similar sense of urgency instead of just slow-pedalint it..
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 06, 2020, 11:24:59 AM
More importantly, CEU has long been set up in Vienna instead. So this ruling is a moot point.

Also roughly at the same time there was a new law requiring NGOs themselves in a Russian-style a foreign interest if they receive funds from abroad. I think the wording in Hungary is less directly insidious but it's the same point. Just last week I read about some education NGO thing denied to apply for EU funds (since that's handled by the national government) because they would not go along and declare themselves foreign interests due to some other funding they received. But there shall be an ECJ ruling on this any year now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 06, 2020, 11:28:26 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 06, 2020, 10:21:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 06, 2020, 10:15:18 AM
:rolleyes:
I mean it is a fair point.

The EU (justifiably) launched legal action over a proposed British law that might breach the Withdrawal Agreement and have suggested they'll use the court's fast-track procedures that can get a ruling in a few months (the average time in the CJEU is about 18-24 months). It's not beyond the power of the Commission to have tried to expedite this, or just treat the other cases against Hungary and Poland with a similar sense of urgency instead of just slow-pedalint it..

I guess Hungary and Poland are posing a problem to the EU: they are a challenge to the official ideas. In practice nobody actually cares if east euro semi-shitholes turn into real shitholes, especially if that keeps German car manufacturing more profitable, and they are clearly not keen on fighting it out with Orban and his ilk just to drive them into Russia's embrace.

But still they must appear like they are doing something, so we get things like the People's Party or whatever the group called keeping Fidesz suspended for years now but taking their votes thankyouverymuch, or inconsequential rulings years after they could have had any practical effect.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 06, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2020, 11:24:59 AM
More importantly, CEU has long been set up in Vienna instead. So this ruling is a moot point.

Also roughly at the same time there was a new law requiring NGOs themselves in a Russian-style a foreign interest if they receive funds from abroad. I think the wording in Hungary is less directly insidious but it's the same point. Just last week I read about some education NGO thing denied to apply for EU funds (since that's handled by the national government) because they would not go along and declare themselves foreign interests due to some other funding they received. But there shall be an ECJ ruling on this any year now.

Already ruled on it back in June.

QuoteHungary breaking EU law over foreign-funded NGO crackdown, says ECJ

Judges at the European Court of Justice (ECJ) have ruled that the Hungarian government is breaking EU law by restricting the financing of NGOs.

The court stated that 'by imposing obligations of registration, declaration and publication on certain categories of civil society organisations directly or indirectly receiving support from abroad exceeding a certain threshold' that Hungary had introduced 'discriminatory and unjustified restrictions'. The ECJ ruled that Hungarian law violates both free movement of capital and fundamental rights.

Back in 2017, the government in Budapest adopted a law to freeze any funding to organisations of over 22,000 euros from outside Hungary, arguing that the money could be used for money laundering or the financing of terrorism.

The restrictions placed on NGO funding was seen as targeting billionaire philanthropist George Soros, and organisations like his Open Society Foundation that support Hungarian NGOs. The government claims these organisations work against the national interest.

Patrick Gaspard, president of the Open Society Foundations, welcomed the Court's decision, saying:

"This ruling will resonate throughout the European Union as an affirmation that civic engagement is a vital pillar of its democratic values."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 06, 2020, 12:54:48 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2020, 11:28:26 AM
I guess Hungary and Poland are posing a problem to the EU: they are a challenge to the official ideas.

better to do like spain and challenge nothing: then you can put political prisoners behind bars and treat them contrary to civilised law as you please
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 28, 2020, 08:18:40 AM
A characteristic disgusting worm of a servant of the system is Szilard Demeter, a Transylvanian "writer" and "poet" who is a flawless bundle of total lack of talent and self-awareness, resulting in a nasty awkward loser who would get absolutely nowhere in life without  becoming the spineless servant of Orban and his ilk. My particular favourites were his stories painting himself as the badass of the nightlife of his home town brawling with people regularly, plus the absolutely unironic "cool guy" story of once waking up to see some flowing long hair in front of him in bed, thinking it was a lady, just to remember it was one of his (male) mates because they had such a night out they ended up sleeping in the same bed. Only thing missing was the "(no homo)" from the end of it.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--uYM-6JDj--/w_1160/7HDljDkJpV6O1HMqes.jpeg)

So anyways, he was named leader of a cultural institute a few years ago which consequently received the right to decide on pretty much all state grant to artists, making him the liege lord of any all type of artists who can't make a living without state grants (i.e. most of them).

Being this shining beacon of Hungarian cultural life, he felt necessary to weight in on the ongoing debate with the EU over funding and rule of law.

He wrote an article on how "Europe is the gas chambers of Soros, poison gas pouring out from the capsule of multicultural open society, deadly to the European way of life. "

He continues:
"The liberarians now aim to exclude Poles and Hungarians from the political community which still grants us some rights. We are the new Jews. Never mind whether they call it open society, rule of law, solidarity or anything else, they are verbal clubs to strike with at our rights. When they question the Hungarian citizens' ability to choose how they want to live, who they want as leaders, what they are basically saying is that are smelly and have big noses. "

"Soros is the Fuhrer of liberalism. And his liberarian followers worship him more than Hitler was by his own".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on November 29, 2020, 08:46:41 PM
So how do they justify not leaving the EU if that is Hungary's position?

I mean it is not like it was some kind of mystery this was a liberal project that required liberal values to be in it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 30, 2020, 07:22:05 AM
The state TV's news website likes to be upbeat and funny on foreign news. The news that Biden has named an entirely female communications team was titled "Since they constantly talk anyways - Women rule Biden's communication team".

Another example of them is their report back when Pennsylvania confirmed their election results. It read: "Humor in Pennsylvania? They confirmed Biden's victory and talk of fair elections".

And of course this is an institution which on paper exists to ensure an impartial source of news for the nation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2020, 07:34:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 29, 2020, 08:46:41 PM
So how do they justify not leaving the EU if that is Hungary's position?

I mean it is not like it was some kind of mystery this was a liberal project that required liberal values to be in it.
Was it? I mean by the time Poland and Hungary join (and were run by more "European" parties) the EU had already had the FPO in Austria, the Danish People's Party were in government, Berlusconi was a standard feature of European politics (and in coalition with Lega and the National Alliance).

It's not like there was no history of this before Poland and Hungary now. Maybe if there'd been a stricter approach at the start it would be easier now but it took a lot of struggle for the EU to impose (relatively ineffective) measures against Austria - it's unimaginable that it could have done it against Italy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 08:38:52 AM
It seems increasingly certain, that Jozsef Szajer, one of Fidesz' founding members, sidelined to be an MEP several years ago, was arrested on Friday when the police busted an orgy of 25 "mostly men" attendees. They also found drugs.

He's been long rumored to be gay, so no doubt people will try to create a (justified) narrative that members of Fidesz live lifestyles they want to deny others of back home. But I think Fidesz will go for a "look at the corrupting, gay-ifying influence Brussels, we told you so", so overall nobody will change their mind over this one.


EDIT: one big clue to Szajer's identity in this is that he absolutely suddenly and out of the blue resigned as MEP on Sunday.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 01, 2020, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 08:38:52 AM
It seems increasingly certain, that Jozsef Szajer, one of Fidesz' founding members, sidelined to be an MEP several years ago, was arrested on Friday when the police busted an orgy of 25 "mostly men" attendees. They also found drugs.

He's been long rumored to be gay, so no doubt people will try to create a (justified) narrative that members of Fidesz live lifestyles they want to deny others of back home. But I think Fidesz will go for a "look at the corrupting, gay-ifying influence Brussels, we told you so", so overall nobody will change their mind over this one.


EDIT: one big clue to Szajer's identity in this is that he absolutely suddenly and out of the blue resigned as MEP on Sunday.

I don't know, maybe it's because he was arrested while in possession of drugs and - I suspect - contravening covid restrictions?  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 09:37:20 AM
Yeah what I mean is the police have not officially named him, but apparently reliable Belgian news sources say the caught MEP was Hungarian and a founder of Fidesz which narrows it down to him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 01, 2020, 09:41:13 AM
Ah okay, I misunderstood you.

This has made the news here (although no talk about who the MEP was) but they are claiming he tried to flee the scene and then tried to use his parlamentary immunity to evade arrest  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 09:48:16 AM
Aand now Szajer has confirmed it. He says it was just a party at a friend's house. He also claims he didn't claim immunity just told them he was an MEP as he didn't have any IDs on himself. And that the police found ecstasy pills but it wasn't his and had no idea there were drugs at the party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 01, 2020, 09:53:35 AM
Every time a situation like this arises I can't stop thinking of Lethal Weapon 2  :blush:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwC_IaY3BmY&ab_channel=MovieDeaths2000
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 01, 2020, 11:10:47 AM
It's like a law of politics that if a party makes "traditional values" a bit part of their pitch their will be an absolute shedload of sex scandals :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 11:31:14 AM
There's  another founder who for some reason have managed to avoid being really found out, although in his case he has always been the "bohemian" of the party (with around 4 wives and counting) who has never held crucial power.

This is probably the most telling pic about his lifestyle, made several years ago when caught to some flash interview

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--tQgRM0CC--/w_1160/6lt0LDF5BR9gPMGvs.png)

:D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 12:17:54 PM
Belgian prosecutors' office released a statement. Szajer (well, "J.Sz." but that's not hard to deduce) was only caught after a civilian alerted the police busting the "party" that they saw somebody climbing down the gutters.  :lol:

He was injured on his hand (probably by the gutter). Also, the only drug finding was in gutter-guy's backpack. He had no papers on him so the police escorted him home where was able to identify himself.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 12:22:31 PM
Ah, also, for more context, the first version of the new constitution introduced by Fidesz in 2011 (I say first version because plenty of it has been updated since based on what was in Fidesz' interest in any given week), was largely written by Szajer, so even if sidelined now, he used to be a pretty big deal.

He was one of those Fidesz core people who achieved their prominence in the party and the country largely independent of Orban's grace, therefore they had to accept exile or at least sidelining.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2020, 01:36:10 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9005991/Police-raid-lockdown-orgy-diplomats-MEP-Brussels.html
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on December 01, 2020, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 01, 2020, 11:10:47 AM
It's like a law of politics that if a party makes "traditional values" a bit part of their pitch their will be an absolute shedload of sex scandals :lol:

:yes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on December 03, 2020, 07:28:39 AM
So apparently a Polish website has interviewed the organizer of the orgy, and he has some salacious things to say about the regular attendants:

QuoteThe orgy organizer speaks again.

"Politicians from Ukraine, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland & Spain come for orgies." However, the most frequent guests are Poles and Hungarians.
(...)
According to Manzheley, 9 politicians from Orban's Fidesz have participated in  orgies. He also said that 4 members of Poland's PiS attend 2-3 times per year "for specific orgies". According to him, they are not MEPs, but functionaries like MPs or hold government positions.
(...)
Q: Is the topic of their groups known for attacking the LGBT community sometimes raised in conversations with Polish and Hungarian politicians? A: Sometimes yes. They're just saying that to hold their positions, they have to pretend to agree with their leaders. That is why they prefer to come abroad to play. If it were to emerge in their countries, it would mean the end of their careers. Due to the rules of their societies, they cannot speak openly about their homosexuality, Manzheley says," acc to the article.

How reliable this is, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on December 03, 2020, 07:32:01 AM
Man, I SO want to know who the Spanish attendees are. Does it make me a bad person?  :blush:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 03, 2020, 07:36:34 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 03, 2020, 07:32:01 AM
Man, I SO want to know who the Spanish attendees are. Does it make me a bad person?  :blush:
No :lol:

Incidentally I always think the Tatchell rule on outing is right so if these people are using their positions to harm LGBT people, I'd have no issue with publications outing them.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on December 03, 2020, 07:44:59 AM
In some other interview the orgy organizer blamed other orgy organizers in Brussels for ratting them to the police. I never imagined that orgy organizing was such a cut-throat line of work.  :lol: I wonder if these orgies are divided by party/ideological lines or cross-group affaires.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 03, 2020, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: The Larch on December 03, 2020, 07:44:59 AM
In some other interview the orgy organizer blamed other orgy organizers in Brussels for ratting them to the police. I never imagined that orgy organizing was such a cut-throat line of work.  :lol: I wonder if these orgies are divided by party/ideological lines or cross-group affaires.  :hmm:
So this isn't about MPs but sort of party workers - but from what I understand the Tories and Labour both have a disproportionate number of young gay men working for them. I imagine any orgies would be on ideological lines given the famous Labour t-shirt, "Never Kissed A Tory" :lol:

But Westminster is full of young gay men working for MPs, lobbyists or parties etc. It's quite a gay eco-system (and one that is definitely open to abuse). It doesn't surprise that Brussels is the same, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also true anywhere else.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 03, 2020, 01:04:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on December 03, 2020, 07:44:59 AM
In some other interview the orgy organizer blamed other orgy organizers in Brussels for ratting them to the police. I never imagined that orgy organizing was such a cut-throat line of work.  :lol: I wonder if these orgies are divided by party/ideological lines or cross-group affaires.  :hmm:
So an FT Eastern European reporter has tweeted about this guy's interview with a Polish news site - when I tried to view it it appears to require you to state that you're over 18 :rolleyes:
QuoteValerie Hopkins
@VALERIEin140
8h
The orgy organizer speaks again.
"Politicians from Ukraine, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland & Spain come for orgies." However, the most frequent guests are Poles and Hungarians
According to Manzheley, 9 politicians from Orban's Fidesz have participated in  orgies. He also said that 4 members of Poland's PiS attend 2-3 times per year "for specific orgies". According to him, they are not not MEPs, but functionaries like MPs or hold government positions.
Q: Is the topic of their groups known for attacking the LGBT community sometimes raised in conversations with Polish and Hungarian politicians? A: Sometimes yes. They're just saying that to hold their positions, they have to pretend to agree with their leaders...
..."That is why they prefer to come abroad to play. If it were to emerge in their countries, it would mean the end of their careers. Due to the rules of their societies, they cannot speak openly about their homosexuality, Manzheley says," acc to the article.
I should say that of course it's very difficult to verify these claims.

"Specific orgies" :lol:

Also it just reminds me of various wealth Gulf Arabs coming to London (and, I imagine, other European cities) for crazy parties - especially the gay ones.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on December 03, 2020, 01:36:46 PM
That's the interview I mentioned in my first post on this.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 03, 2020, 01:48:22 PM
Quote from: The Larch on December 03, 2020, 01:36:46 PM
That's the interview I mentioned in my first post on this.  :P
:lol: :blush: Soz.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 03, 2020, 01:59:46 PM
I assume these orgies are staffed by prostitutes?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 06, 2020, 02:08:03 PM
One for Tamas :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eoj9K70W4AIauGs?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 07, 2020, 06:22:57 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 07, 2020, 06:27:40 AM
 This is also relevant to the level of waste allowed by EU funding I guess: since the start of pandemic in March, the government has allocated extra spending on sport facilities to the DAILY average of 1.25 million pounds. This has been mostly to prepare extensions and new projects.

The major religious organisations have also received around this amount of extra funding. And of course this is over what these facilities and churches received as per the annual budget.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 08, 2020, 12:28:05 PM
This isn't about Hungarian politics - it's more Hungary-adjacent.

Romania's just had parliamentary elections with extremely low reported turnout (35%). According to exit polls not a great result for the government, but the big shock is the nationalist/far right party which has apparently won 8% which is over the threshold.

It was only founded last year and is inspired by PiS in Poland. Apparently they are very anti-Hungarian in their discourse, also support unification with Moldova, rail against foreign companies taking money out of Romania, anti-gay marriage etc. Lots of Iron Guard sympathisers in the "intellectual" wing of the party, more weirdly apparently one of their big issues has been opposition to a ban on abortion and their strong stand against illegal logging.

Still a minority party of course and we'll see what happens - though it's worth noting the minority Hungarian party in Romania has in the past been in and out of government in exchange for looking after their interests. I wonder if especially the centre-right will have a look at the nationalists as a more reliable coalition partner.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 08, 2020, 02:52:58 PM
If a Romanian far right party is pro-abortion, I assume that has something to do with their views in gypsies
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 11, 2020, 04:27:51 AM
This morning, if you are a concerned Hungarian citizen and go to "koronavirus.gov.hu" to learn about the latest official pandemic news and regulations, you will not be disappointed.


Because the leading article on the government's coronavirus info page lets you know of Orban's great victory over Brussels in our fight for freedom!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 09:13:00 AM
Bunch of changes to the constitution have been voted on and accepted (shocking) by Parliament:

-"the mother is woman, the father is man"
-"Hungary protects children's rights to an identity matching their birth sex"
-"Hungary protects and ensures children's education according to Christian values"
-In a sate of war, Hungarian citizens resident in the country will do military service. Conscientious objectors ca be put on non-armed service. Details to be established in a follow-up law
-The foundations/"charities" created and funded by the state recently to run things like universities have had their budgets declared non-public funds and any change to them must have 2/3rd majority vote in Parliament. In other words once tax money is wired to them it is nobody's business what it is spent on and can remain a safe haven to Fidesz cronies as long as Fidesz doesn't lose more than simple majority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 15, 2020, 09:17:52 AM
The other one I noted was the one around restricting political parties - I think it was some form of registration. Currently parties need to run over 20 candidates to qualify, in future they'll need to run over 70.

All in all not a bad week for Orban - secure funding equivalent to 10% of Hungary's budget and follow up by re-writing the constitution <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 11:19:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 15, 2020, 09:17:52 AM
The other one I noted was the one around restricting political parties - I think it was some form of registration. Currently parties need to run over 20 candidates to qualify, in future they'll need to run over 70.

All in all not a bad week for Orban - secure funding equivalent to 10% of Hungary's budget and follow up by re-writing the constitution <_<

Yeah the opposition parties are now working on having a pre-election election between each other to establish how a united front shall look like because that's the only change they have in 2022 - although seeing all Orban has done, I find it laughable that people think if he is facing election numbers that would mean he loses power, he'd not have them doctored. No way.

The opposition pre-election of course is going to be a shitshow, as they lack the national infrastucture and media coverage to pull it off on a proper scale, and there'll be petty bickering, not to mention pro-government trolling. But I guess it is something to suffer through before everyone realises this regime will not be defeated at the polls.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 11:24:58 AM
BTW I read that all these changes to the electoral law have been a big mess with quite a lot of chaos among Fidesz what change to the bill to support and what not and how they kept changing it around.

It cannot be coincidence that this was during the weeks that Orban was focused on EU matters. There have been a lot of stories and indications on to just what insane extent Orban micromanages everything. I reckon he kept changing his mind and/or reacted to happenings with a lag due to the mess with the EU. Ridiculous.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on December 15, 2020, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 09:13:00 AM
Bunch of changes to the constitution have been voted on and accepted (shocking) by Parliament:

-"the mother is woman, the father is man"
-"Hungary protects children's rights to an identity matching their birth sex"
-"Hungary protects and ensures children's education according to Christian values"


Le Monde blew it by saying Hungary was enshrining the  traditional notion of gender (sic) i.e genre in the constitution.  :lol: Copy pasting AFP is risky sometimes.  :P

QuoteLa Hongrie conservatrice de Viktor Orban n'en finit pas de restreindre les droits des minorités. Le Parlement a adopté mardi 15 décembre plusieurs textes anti-LGBT, l'un inscrivant la notion traditionnelle de « genre » (sic) dans la Constitution, l'autre interdisant de facto l'adoption aux couples de même sexe.

I guess Orban needed a diversion for something. The question is what exactly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 01:42:37 PM
Agreed. It is  important to remember that Orbán and at this point his entire party are an organised crime outfit holding a country hostage. Orbán never had any political convictions he kept with other than his own power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 04:09:29 PM
I guess Hungary is really getting deep into Russia territory now.

The 10th richest man in Hungary, one of the last remaining non-Orban allies of that wealth as I understand,has been arrested on a bribery charge. He has been constantly harassed by police these last couple of years, a big fertiliser factory of his especially has been on the wishlisht of one of Orban's allies apparently.

This particular case began in May. I mean, I have little doubt he did bribe some public official because in Hungary even in better times you could get no public contracts (only sure way to become really rich) without that of that I am fairly certain, and it is really done almost in the open nowadays.  But that means he is far from being unique in that.

Back in May he was the 5th richest so I guess things have took their toll. He claimed to some newspaper that he was privately offered to sell his wealth and leave the country quietly, otherwise he'd end up in prison. He took offense and decided to fight.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 16, 2020, 05:24:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 15, 2020, 01:42:37 PM
Agreed. It is  important to remember that Orbán and at this point his entire party are an organised crime outfit holding a country hostage. Orbán never had any political convictions he kept with other than his own power.
Meanwhile, that party still sits in the largest party group in the EU alongside the mainstream centre-right like the CDU-CSU, the Moderates, Fine Gael, the Republicans etc <_<

Article from Politico on the latest round of keeping Fidesz in the EPP:
QuoteViktor Orbán's MEPs aim to dodge Parliament group expulsion
Senior members set to decide whether to vote to expel Hungarian party leader Tamás Deutsch.
By Maïa de La Baume and Hans von der Burchard   
December 15, 2020 9:22 pm

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's Fidesz party faces yet another test of whether it can maintain its place in the European Parliament's biggest political group. And yet again, it looks likely to cling on — for now.

Senior members of the European People's Party are set to decide Wednesday whether to hold a vote on potentially expelling the head of Hungary's Fidesz delegation in Parliament, Tamás Deutsch, after he compared comments made by EPP group leader Manfred Weber to the slogans of the Gestapo and Hungary's communist-era secret police.


Deutsch's remarks were the latest in a string of clashes between Fidesz and other EPP members, culminating in the group's suspension from party ranks last year. If a vote is held and Deutsch is expelled, it could prompt the rest of Fidesz's 12 MEPs to walk away from the EPP as well.

But despite the continued conflicts, among Germany's Christian Democrats (CDU) delegation — the EPP's largest and most powerful group of MEPs and the sister party of Weber's Bavarian CSU — there is still reluctance to cast Fidesz out.

Deutsch apologized Tuesday to Weber and "all other colleagues" in an email to EPP members seen by POLITICO.

"It was a mistake on my part, for which I am sorry," Deutsch said in the email. "Also, I take back the unfortunate comparison I used. I hope that we can cool tensions and continue our work together for the betterment of our common European Union in a moment of crisis when unity is more needed than ever."

On Tuesday, after the apology was sent, some of the CDU's most senior members showed no signs that they were ready to sanction the governing Hungarian party, at least not immediately.

"I'm advocating that there be an intense debate on Wednesday and that we then use the Christmas season to reflect and make a decision in the new year," said Daniel Caspary, the head of the CDU delegation.

Last month, Deutsch told Hungarian television that the Gestapo and the AVO, Hungary's secret police during the communist era, had the "same slogan" as Weber's prior comments that "if you have nothing to hide, you don't have to be afraid." Weber was speaking about plans to link EU funding to rule of law standards, which Hungary had opposed.

Deutsch's criticism prompted almost 40 MEPs, led by Austrian MEP Othmar Karas and mainly from northern EU countries, to make a formal request to expel him from the EPP group. They argued that his comments were a "blatant and intolerable distortion of historic facts," and that the Hungarian MEP "must no longer undermine the EPP group credibility."

Expelling Deutsch would require a two-thirds majority of votes cast, according to group rules. Officials say this is unlikely within the 187-member group. Twenty-nine German MEPs and nearly 30 Spanish, Italian and French MEPs have defended Fidesz and Orbán despite accusations that Hungary is backsliding on rule of law standards. On Tuesday, Hungary faced further international criticism from LGBT rights advocates and others after its parliament passed amendments that would prevent same-sex couples from adopting children, and make it more difficult for single parents to adopt.

Insiders say expelling Deutsch has greater implications for Germany beyond the Parliament, with Chancellor Angela Merkel likely reluctant to sideline Orbán after reaching a compromise with Hungary and Poland on linking EU payments to respect for the rule of law so EU leaders could pass an historic €1.8 trillion budget-and-recovery package last week.

Some officials say Caspary may try to delay any vote on Deutsch's exclusion, and his colleagues would be inclined to follow the party line.

"Most German EPPs will not change their position ... while Merkel would postpone [the vote] until eternity," one German MEP said. Caspary has denied receiving instructions from Merkel on Deutsch.

One EPP insider said that "if the CDU expels Fidesz, Orbán will take it personally and will declare a war to German economical interests in Hungary ... For Merkel, expelling Fidesz is not a party decision, it is a state decision."

Still, since the vote would be carried out by secret ballot, there's a chance German MEPs could feel they have some wiggle room, especially those within the CDU and CSU who say they have grown tired of Fidesz's repeated provocations. Several officials said Weber himself is feeling fed up with Fidesz and told an internal EPP group meeting last week that "enough was enough."

"Caspary will be the great guilty one if no decision is taken tomorrow," the EPP insider said.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 16, 2020, 01:27:39 PM
In addition to the EPP issue seeing a lot of European journalists who cover Brussels are outraged after a press conference with Margethe Vestager (the Competition Commissioner) because the Commission press officer stopped/wouldn't allow questions about Hungary and Poland using competition law to shut down hostile media outlets. One Italian journalist said it was a "new low" for the institutions in dealing with Hungary and Poland. Apparently they've been asked to submit those questions in writing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 18, 2020, 12:13:22 PM
So a bit of a slap on the wrist for Deutsch:
QuoteEPP sanctions head of Viktor Orbán's MEPs
Center-right group kicks can down the road on bigger question of whether to maintain ties with Hungarian party.
By Maïa de La Baume
December 17, 2020 12:31 am

The European People's Party decided to sanction but not expel the head of Hungary's ruling Fidesz party in the European Parliament after he made comments critical of the center-right bloc's leader.

The EPP said in a statement after the decision Wednesday evening that the group "strongly condemns" the statements made by MEP Tamás Deutsch, which it described as a "clear contradiction to European Christian Democracy and to EPP values."


Deutsch had sparked outrage among fellow EPP group members when he compared comments made by Parliament group leader Manfred Weber to the slogans of the Gestapo and Hungary's communist-era secret police.

A group of nearly 40 other EPP members, led by Austrian MEP Othmar Karas, had pushed to expel Deutsch from the group as a result.

According to Wednesday's statement, Deutsch will be denied all rights to speaking time in plenary on behalf of the EPP, and will be barred from holding any formal positions on behalf of the group, such as rapporteur, "until further decisions are made."


The sanctions stop short of the full expulsion Karas and others had called for, which would have required a two-thirds majority and may have prompted the rest of Fidesz's MEPs to leave the EPP as well. But the EPP statement said Karas' letter "remains on the table."

"My initiative had an impact: Tamas Deutsch has just been suspended," Karas tweeted. "I am glad that my motion triggered this debate, that the EPP group likewise condemned his unspeakable comparisons, and that there are now consequences."

The statement adopted by the group also kicks the can down the road on the bigger question of whether Fidesz should remain in the EPP: The group had faced mounting pressure to formally kick Fidesz out given long-running tensions and accusations that Hungary is backsliding on rule of law standards, culminating in the group's suspension from party ranks last year.

But German members have been reluctant to go so far, and they proposed the lighter suspension.

The statement adopted by the group — with 133 votes in favor to six against and three abstentions — says the EPP must "take a final decision on the membership of Fidesz immediately when health conditions allow this to happen." It also calls on Fidesz MEPs to "reflect on whether their fundamental political convictions still are compatible with the values and core content of the EPP Group."

Polish MEP Róża Thun said she was one of the six MEPs to vote against the statement, tweeting: "Dear Opinion Makers, if you intend to hammer #EPP tomorrow, I kindly inform you that I fought to expel #TamasDeutsch and voted against the text postponing the decision until 'health conditions allow this to happen'. I have lost. And #Orban opened another champagne!"


In a direct response to Thun's tweet, Deutsch said: "No comment. That's it."

Speaking on Hungary's Hír TV earlier Wednesday evening, Deutsch acknowledged that he had apologized to his EPP colleagues. He also said that when it comes to the criticism directed at him, it was necessary to "rise above it" with a "calm heart and smiling." Citing a friend's advice, the Hungarian politician said that "the wise person gets offended not when he is hurt, but when it is in his interest."


Insiders said expelling Deutsch could have also had greater implications for Germany beyond the Parliament, with Chancellor Angela Merkel likely reluctant to sideline Orbán after reaching a compromise with Hungary and Poland on linking EU payments to respect for the rule of law so EU leaders could pass a historic €1.8 trillion budget-and-recovery package last week.

Before Wednesday's decision, Karas said Fidesz was "dividing us within the parliamentary group," and that he hoped his motion would bring the group back together.

"Sanctions against Mr. Deutsch alone do not solve the problem of Fidesz in the EPP," Karas said ahead of the decision. "It is important to me that we do not go back to business as usual now."

Hans von der Burchard and Lili Bayer contributed reporting.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2020, 12:18:51 PM
Pathetic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 01, 2021, 01:12:11 PM
I mentioned in another thread how I think the government have been bought by the Chinese, as evidenced by a growing number of stupidly disadvantageous business deals the state have made with China.

Latest one is the creation of the first foreign campus of the Fudan University in Budapest. Not only this officially Chinese Communist Party-supported university is going to have its first foray outside China there, but apparently the Hungarian government is spending 2 million pounds (to be fair peanuts compared to the other business deals) to purchase a building for them.

Seems like a great institution, this uni:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s---3U1K19L--/h_225,w_340/7VNGey0naLfr11mgOs.jpeg)

As the small cherry on the top, this campus will give graduates two diplomas: a Hungarian and an international one. This method was in fact the official reason why CEU had to be kicked out of the country. And now not only this Chinese uni gets to do the same thing, the government is financially supporting them to do so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 03, 2021, 12:09:00 AM
What the hell? I thought all those far right nationalist types were supposed to also hate the Chinese? But it is just the Jews?

I wouldn't have felt so bad about 1956 if I knew this was what Hungarians wanted for a state.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on January 03, 2021, 05:35:55 AM
Probably the only far-right ones that hate the Chinese are the ones that haven't been paid.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 23, 2021, 08:23:11 AM
The Human Resources Minister said in a Facebook video posted as "interview" that "vaccine-related business, political, and prestige interests are not going to change, for certain". Then he proceeded to ask people not to view vaccines from a political point of view.  :huh:


This is of course mainly about the recent Hungarian approval of Sputnik V and the massive order they have placed with Russia. Needless to say this doesn't exactly have people thrilled. According to a newspaper, the approval wasn't even made by Hungarian trials, but simply by studying the (still in progress as I understand) stage 3 Russian results as published.


It is also worth having a brief look at the Human Resources Ministry. This is a super-ministry, concentrating what -once aptly described- "Orban doesn't care about". One minister and his state secretaries manage:
-healthcare
-education
-social, welfare, and employment policies


Plus all the smaller sub-fields which stem from the above.

It's as if (especially in light of the absolutely clueless old geezer in charge of it now) Gavin Williamson was put in charge of all of that stuff. Wonderful stuff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 23, 2021, 08:29:33 AM
Oh and an opposition politician spent two months trying to gain access to the vaccination plans. He has been ping-ponged around 4 ministries as each refused to take responsibility for organising it and/or being the data steward for it.

Incompetence beyond belief.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 23, 2021, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 23, 2021, 08:23:11 AM
It's as if (especially in light of the absolutely clueless old geezer in charge of it now) Gavin Williamson was put in charge of all of that stuff. Wonderful stuff.
:lol: God :(

And Williamson would never accept the Russian vaccine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLr-jfbX0zM
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 17, 2021, 07:52:01 AM
So this is not directly related to Hungary (though the same week an independent radio station in Hungary was shut down) on the spreading challenge to liberal democracy in CEE:
QuoteInside Slovenia's war on the media

Prime Minister Janez Janša's attacks create climate of fear, journalists and watchdogs say.

(https://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/15/GettyImages-1204917592-1320x880.jpg)
Janez Janša began his career as a young Communist-turned-dissident in the former Yugoslavia, later becoming a right-wing politician | Jure Makovec/AFP via Getty Images
By Lili Bayer
February 16, 2021 4:05 am

The leader of one of the EU's smallest countries is waging a big campaign against journalists he doesn't like.

Slovenia's prime minister, Janez Janša, whose country takes over the Council of the EU's rotating presidency later this year, has repeatedly and publicly attacked the country's main public media outlets.

The right-wing populist leader, an admirer of Donald Trump, has referred to the Slovenian Press Agency (STA) as a "national disgrace." He has accused public broadcasting organization Radiotelevizija Slovenija (RTV) of spreading "lies" and misleading the public, tweeting that "obviously there are too many of you and you are paid too well." And just this month, the prime minister called RTV — along with a private broadcaster — "irresponsible virus spreaders."


Janša's campaign has gone beyond rhetoric. Last summer, his government proposed changes to the country's media laws that would boost state influence over STA and reduce funding for RTV. State funding for the news agency was also temporarily halted late last year, sparking fears about its future.

The campaign has had a toxic effect on media freedom in the southeast European country, according to journalists, watchdogs and academics.

POLITICO spoke with over a dozen journalists, including senior staff at Slovenia's public media outlets. Many of them accuse Janša of whipping up hatred against public media reporters and editors, resulting in threatening phone calls, letters, emails and messages on social media. Journalists say the pressure has led to self-censorship and that some editors have resorted to calling police over threats.

And while some journalists say they have been able to continue reporting as usual, many covering Janša's government say political pressure is strongly felt in their daily work, affecting reporting on issues such as Hungarian investments in Slovenia, the role of far-right movements in the country and even Janša's Trump-boosting on Twitter.

Asked if the Slovenian Press Agency's independence is at risk, editor-in-chief Barbara Štrukelj said: "Absolutely."

Janša's moves directly contradict the EU's standards on media freedom — Commission Vice President Věra Jourová declared last year that "journalists should be able to report without fear or favor." And the pressure comes at a time when concerns are growing about media freedom and plurality across much of Central and Eastern Europe — in particular in Hungary, Poland and Bulgaria.

"The pressure I feel right now is strong," said one senior Slovenian journalist working for public media, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The "experience in the past months is something really new and unprecedented."

Watchdogs have also expressed concerns.

"Janez Janša's attitude toward Slovenia's public media is not merely aggressive or standoffish. Frankly, it's venomous," said Noah Buyon, a research analyst at think tank Freedom House, which tracks the state of democracy in the region.

Janša's 'war'

The prime minister began his career as a young Communist-turned-dissident in the former Yugoslavia, later becoming a right-wing politician.

It's a path that closely mirrors that of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, a close Janša ally who has moved to exert greater control of his own country's media industry. Like Orbán, Janša is not in his first stint as prime minister — he served from 2004 until 2008, and then briefly again in 2012-13, before returning to power last March.

Janša's "Communist past is reflected and influences this contemporary attitude towards the media, which is the attitude of a person who does not want to see any criticism of himself," said Marko Milosavljević, a professor of journalism and media policy at the University of Ljubljana.

When Janša came back to power last March, "this aggressive attitude towards the media and journalism was immediately seen," Milosavljević noted, citing the draft media laws as an attempt to put the media "on a leash."

A fixture of the region's political scene for over three decades, Janša leads the Slovenian Democratic Party (SDS), a member of the European People's Party, with an iron fist. But unlike Orbán, Janša governs as part of an unstable multiparty coalition, a reality that limits his room for maneuver.

Nevertheless, coalition politics has not stopped Janša from taking direct aim at journalists.

In a May 2020 essay titled "War with the Media," Janša insisted there were "capable, professional and ethical journalists" at major publicly funded media outlets who were being silenced by senior female editors, although he didn't present any specific evidence.

"An atmosphere of intolerance and hatred is being created by a small circle of female editors, having both family and capital connections with the pillars of the deep state," Janša wrote.

The prime minister — nicknamed "Marshal Twito" — also frequently uses social media to berate individual media outlets and journalists.

After the board overseeing RTV picked a new director-general in late January — in a process so contentious that one of the candidates has now launched a lawsuit — the prime minister tweeted a clip from the broadcaster's coverage, writing: "hopefully the new broom will fix such false reporting."

Janša's allies also currently run multiple pro-government news outlets, partially with the help of investors linked to Hungary's Orbán. These outlets have taken an active role in amplifying rhetoric targeting public media.

"STA in the service of the deep state!" reads one December headline on the website of Nova24TV, a pro-Janša channel.

The prime minister has dismissed journalists' concerns. Janša told POLITICO that it is he and his party who face threats — pointing to anti-government protesters who have adopted the phrase smrt janšizmu — a play on a Yugoslav partisan slogan — meaning "death to Janšism."

Slovenian officials close to the prime minister say unprofessional journalists are the problem.

"There is a complete freedom of press in Slovenia," Foreign Minister Anže Logar, a member of Janša's SDS, told POLITICO in an interview.

The problem with Slovenian media, Logar said, is that it is not equally "distributed between left and right side — so it's very one-sided," adding that the country needs more "professionalism" in order to distinguish "political activism from journalism."   

Under pressure

Journalists say that personal attacks both from senior officials and the pro-government press have put a strain on their work.

"You cannot work normally," said a second journalist working for public media, who, like most reporters, spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation. The journalist described the climate for reporters as "very stressful and very brutal."

In an open letter published last October, 22 Slovenian editors warned that the country's free press was in danger, saying local journalists "are subjected to direct lying, insinuations, manipulations and insults from those in power, starting with the top of the government."

In some instances, journalists say the anti-media rhetoric has translated into hostility in the form of threatening phone calls and messages. "You are a whore's child, you are shit. When you go to sleep remember who you are," said one anonymous letter addressed to a female RTV journalist and cited in a recent report by the Slovenian Association of Journalists.


"People have become frightened," said a third journalist, who holds a senior role in a public media outlet. Female journalists are particularly targeted: "If a woman does a story, everybody says 'she's a whore, she's a bitch,'" the journalist said, adding that "psychologically, this situation is like a war."

Staff also point to institutional pressures. Two journalists cited RTV's Program Council — whose members are in part selected by Slovenia's national assembly — as a source of indirect coercion on editors. The council has the power to appoint and dismiss RTV's head, as well as approve the broadcaster's business plans.

In another sign of public authorities influencing the media, Slovenian outlets reported earlier this month that the government had blocked public health officials from appearing on RTV and on a commercial channel — a development that watchdog groups, including the International Press Institute, decried.

Then there's the issue of taxpayer funding for state media and potential changes to local media laws.

About half of STA's revenue comes from its role as a public news service. While some public funding for the agency was restored in January following criticism both domestically and from the European Commission, its future financing remains uncertain. In early February the government proposed an amendment that would change the organization's ownership structure.

Janša's administration rebuts any allegations of coercion. "At no point in time," said the government communications office, has the government placed "any form of editorial pressure on STA."

Asked about the proposed legal changes put forward last summer — which are still under consideration — the office said the legislation "does not pose a threat to freedom of the press in any conceivable way."

Still, the moves have left many staffers deeply concerned. Multiple public media employees said self-censorship is occurring.

"We'd rather not touch some stories," said a fourth journalist working for public media, adding that public media occasionally avoids in-depth reporting on Hungarian money in Slovenia, as well as institutions such as the police and concerns regarding far-right groups in the country.

A fifth journalist, who works for STA, recalled being told off by an official for asking questions about the prime minister's tweets boosting Donald Trump's false claims of U.S. voter fraud — and then being "advised by my colleagues not to pick a fight."

On-air, reporters have "started to become really careful" when discussing the government, said a sixth journalist.

Some public media employees acknowledge, however, that political pressure in Slovenian media is not new.

"We have pressures also when a left-wing government is in power," but "it's more organized" under the current leadership, said a seventh journalist working for public media.

The Slovenian government rejects the notion that some journalists are self-censoring.

"Since the media is predominately connected to the left centers of capital and political power, it goes without saying that there is absolutely no form of self-censorship occurring in Slovenian media outlets," the government's communication office said.


Some voices within public media also say that concerns are overblown.

Janša "can't censor anyone" and "has no real influence" in mainstream media, said Jadranka Rebernik, head of the parliamentary program on RTV. "I think there's a lot of dramatization in Slovenia right now," she added, saying RTV is "harder on this government than the previous one" and "should be politically impartial and independent."

But for many journalists, the outlook for Slovenia's media is bleak.

"Press freedom is more and more in danger," said Petra Lesjak Tušek, president of the Slovenian Association of Journalists.

"Few countries in Europe have experienced such a swift downturn in press and media freedom."

Striking that this is by another EPP party. I really feel like the EPP and especially their "establishment" parties in Western Europe like the CDU-CSU, Benelux Christian Democrats, the Republicans etc are really acting like McConnell to Trump. They'll issue the odd statement noting their concern, but are enabling this sort of thing through their inaction <_<

Edit: And also relevant the Slovenian Ministry of Culture have responded on Twitter:
QuoteMinistrstvo za kulturo
@mk_gov_si
Feb 16
.@POLITICOEurope shows an extraordinairy level of political bias in its latest article on the phantom "war on media" in Slovenia.
Facts:
1) Slovenian private media is predominately owned by media tycoons close to leftist political parties.
2) @govSlovenia has handed out €2.6 million in an open tender to (mostly left-wing) media, as well as tens of millions of euros in covid19 relief.
3) PM has been critical of media which undermine Covid19 safety restrictions, yet has never pushed for editorial influence.
4) If journalists are "fearful" reporting about Hungarian investments in Slovenia they don't seem show to it. The topic is being widely covered (many times with gross exaggerations, hiding the fact that all the Hungarian-owned media don't even cover 5% of the media landscape).
5) As a recent analysis on media plurality conducted by Ljubljana based Faculty of Media shows: most  mainstream media have a heavy left-wing, pro-oposition, anti-government editorial stance. This goes against anonymous reports that reporters are being forced into self-censorship
6) @RTV_Slovenija is not being defunded. Loss of income suffered from reallocation of a small part of the RTV fee will be compensated by a more liberal legislature on ad allowances. @govSlovenia already funded RTV with €2.1 million additional funds in Covid19 relief.

As has the Prime Minister (with, I assume, a typo):
QuoteJanez Janša
@JJansaSDS
Well, @liliebayer was instructed not to tell the truth, so she quoted mainly "unknown" sources from the extreme left and purposely neglected sources with names and integrity. That's @POLITICOEurope, unfortunately. Laying for living.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 17, 2021, 08:12:35 AM
Well, here the chancellor only attacks the state prosecutors who are investigating his right hand man for corruption. :P

Media corruption is handled differently - the government is one of the biggest sources of ad revenue for papers and magazines. And positive coverage tends to net bigger checks than being critical. <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 17, 2021, 09:10:22 AM
Yes, Slovenia seems to be joining Poland in copying the Hungarian cookbook on creating a modern autocracy. Then again the Hungarian version is a very close copy of the Russian method, they just added humungous amounts of embezzled EU money for quicker cook time and added flavour.

In Poland the new tax on advertisements is classic Hungary 2011. I expect it will be accompanied with increasing advertisement spending by state-owned companies, making money directly controlled by party loyalists the only reliable way to survive on the media market.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 19, 2021, 05:16:41 AM
One of the very Mafia state-like things about Hungary at the moment is that while the entire hospitality sector is forced closed with next no state support, casinos are allowed to remain open. Only thing that applies to them is the 8PM curfew.

They are also pretty much the only business left where cash registers are not required to be online connected to tax authority servers.

The explanation seems self-evident of course. All casinos in the country are in hands of a few Orban-friendly oligarchs, and, I assume, a casino's on-paper income is one of the most convenient ways to launder money. And since the stealing and bribery have not decreased during the pandemic, they can't really afford to close the laundry machines down.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 24, 2021, 04:26:58 AM
With vaccination just crawling ahead and the 2nd wave of the virus being swept away by the 3rd wave, the government ensures priorities are kept and important matters are not held back by unnecessary red tape. Therefore, they have declared 3 projects "critical to the national interest" so that normal tendering processes can be skipped and the suppliers can be just appointed without competition:

1. The handball Europa Cup held together with Slovakia in 2022
2. Investments necessary for Hungary's successful participation in the Dubai World Fair
3. Purchasing the licence to hold a MotoGP race in Hungary


^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on February 24, 2021, 04:31:23 AM
:hmm: I'm critical of the national interest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on February 24, 2021, 05:14:09 AM
So I guess everyone is drinking at casino bars?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 26, 2021, 05:57:21 AM
One for Tamas - lots of interest here:
http://hungarianmoney.eu/

Summary/intro:
QuoteIn 10 years the Hungarian government paid at least 670 million euros of grants to national minority organisations abroad –– based on decisions by a government fund totalling at more than 1,4 billion euros. The difference in public spending records connected to indirect financing of political parties, media buying and supporting the church is substantial, yet remains a mystery.

OVERVIEW

Hungarian communities living mostly in impoverished, rural areas in neighboring countries have seen an unprecedented influx of money in recent years. Churches were renovated, schools were built, and NGOs working in these communities could run their programs without worrying about finances.

Since the 1990s, the various Hungarian governments have always helped the 2,2 million nationals living in neighboring countries to maintain their cultural, educational and religious institutions. Without these grants, many of them could not function over the long term.

After Orbán won the election for the second time in 2010, the number and amounts of grants and other programs targeting Hungarians living abroad began to increase substantially in 2016.

The transparency of the grants decisions is disputable. There is no single, centralised, easily searchable and up-to date public database that offers clear and machine-readable information about the projects that were financed with taxpayers' money. While there are public calls for small grants where everyone can apply, the criteria upon which the big amounts are decided is not published.


This project is based on scraped data and documents about Bethlen Gábor Fund (Bethlen Gábor Alap, BGA) decisions and payments to minority organizations from the National Tenders database. BGA is the largest state fund and is focused on supporting Hungarian organisations abroad.

BGA did not answer questions by the regional group of journalists which concerned public spending safeguards, reporting issues, irreconcilable data between contracts and decisions, and other findings.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2021, 12:02:09 PM
QuoteThe transparency of the grants decisions is disputable. There is no single, centralised, easily searchable and up-to date public database that offers clear and machine-readable information about the projects that were financed with taxpayers' money. While there are public calls for small grants where everyone can apply, the criteria upon which the big amounts are decided is not published.

And this is all you need to know on why this is happening.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 27, 2021, 07:44:02 PM
It seems the government have only ordered 1.7 million Moderna vaccine doses out of the 3.5 million availabke to them on the EU quota.

On media questions on this they said it is very similar to the Pfizer vaccine (of which they blamed the EU for not sending enough) but more expensive so they "saw no need to order more". All the while they have ordered millions of the untested Chinese vaccine at double the price of Pfizer"s.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 02, 2021, 09:44:48 AM
One of the weird things in Hungary is that the army has been deployed to hospitals fairly early in the pandemic. Although perhaps it is not so weird as men with guns have been the government's favourite "we are handling the situation, no really, trust us" move.

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--A7n4NVAa--/7ZVhPhNDwYUimOWGs.jpeg)


The other weird thing is that the government felt like a pandemic and a health system creaking under the pressure is the best possible time to push through an effective decrease hospital staff compensation.

As I understand, a significant portion of the money A&E / ICU nurses and doctors are taking home has been various salary extensions payable after working out of hours and that sort of thing. These have been guaranteed by law. Now these payments have been completely restructured and although technically still payable there are no guarantees left that they are going to get paid.

This has been pushed through rather abruptly and has been the last straw for many nurses and doctors.

A journalst was visiting a hospital today where the soldiers were actually making themselves useful by guiding patients and such. The hospital's A&E unit was shut down due to all the personnel who have quit in protest, and the doctors called in were triaging in an ad-hoc outside place. One phone call the journalist overheard was on a covid-suspected patient in an ambulance
"-So, the gist of it is, we don't have the room but we still need to take him?
-Yes"

All this of course while cronyism and questionable spending have reached never before seen proportions during the pandemic. It really is incredible just how resigned the whole country is to be putting up with all this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 02, 2021, 09:59:24 AM
i like the combination of camo and a high visibility vest. just to confuse the enemy, i guess.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 02, 2021, 10:04:34 AM
My favourite is the automatic weapon to help out managing hospital patients.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 03, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
So the EPP group in the European Parliament have finally adopted a rule change that would make it easy/possible for them to expel Fidesz.

Because of this Fidesz has left the group in the EP (from my understanding they're still part of the political family, so Orban will still go to the EPP pre-summit meeting etc), calling the new rules antidemocratic, unjust and unacceptable - especially when Europe should be focusing on the pandemic.

The EPP are (finally, partially) in the right, but it feels like they've still managed to create a scenario where Fidesz can spin it pretty well :lol: :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 03, 2021, 06:26:43 AM
Good
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 03, 2021, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 03, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
The EPP are (finally, partially) in the right, but it feels like they've still managed to create a scenario where Fidesz can spin it pretty well :lol: :bleeding:

Given how little dissent Fidesz tolerates in Hungary, does that even matter?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 03, 2021, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 03, 2021, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 03, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
The EPP are (finally, partially) in the right, but it feels like they've still managed to create a scenario where Fidesz can spin it pretty well :lol: :bleeding:

Given how little dissent Fidesz tolerates in Hungary, does that even matter?
Maybe not necessarily in Hungary but I think so just in terms of optics. In my view the EPP should have then immediately held a vote to expel Fidesz to avoid them being able to walk out and spin it as leaving on their own terms - especially because Fidesz are excellent trolls so I think they even referred to the motion as an example of anti-democratic behaviour but also changing the rules like this as undermining the sort of rule of law within the EPP.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 03, 2021, 01:09:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 03, 2021, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 03, 2021, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 03, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
The EPP are (finally, partially) in the right, but it feels like they've still managed to create a scenario where Fidesz can spin it pretty well :lol: :bleeding:

Given how little dissent Fidesz tolerates in Hungary, does that even matter?
Maybe not necessarily in Hungary but I think so just in terms of optics. In my view the EPP should have then immediately held a vote to expel Fidesz to avoid them being able to walk out and spin it as leaving on their own terms - especially because Fidesz are excellent trolls so I think they even referred to the motion as an example of anti-democratic behaviour but also changing the rules like this as undermining the sort of rule of law within the EPP.

new they only need to act against spain and it's holding of political prisoners...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 03, 2021, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 03, 2021, 01:09:47 PM
new they only need to act against spain and it's holding of political prisoners...

Oh? Have they acted against Hungary yet? Kicking out one party from a parliamentary group handles all the problems in Hungary eh?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 05, 2021, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 03, 2021, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 03, 2021, 01:09:47 PM
new they only need to act against spain and it's holding of political prisoners...

Oh? Have they acted against Hungary yet? Kicking out one party from a parliamentary group handles all the problems in Hungary eh?

focusing on Hungary but ignoring Spain just exposes the hypocrisy that is rife in the EU, that cesspool of failed politicians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:18:38 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 05, 2021, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 03, 2021, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 03, 2021, 01:09:47 PM
new they only need to act against spain and it's holding of political prisoners...

Oh? Have they acted against Hungary yet? Kicking out one party from a parliamentary group handles all the problems in Hungary eh?

focusing on Hungary but ignoring Spain just exposes the hypocrisy that is rife in the EU, that cesspool of failed politicians.

Look Spain has problems but it is not a full out authoritarian mobster state like Hungary. It strikes me as paying less attention to that sprained ankle because you also have terminal cancer, hardly hypocrisy.

Surely you can come up with a better example than that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:25:30 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 05, 2021, 01:12:01 PM
focusing on Hungary but ignoring Spain just exposes the hypocrisy that is rife in the EU, that cesspool of failed politicians.
I don't entirely disagree on the imprisonment of Spanish politicians, but I'd hardly ay the EU has focused on Hungary. Orban's been in office and we've been aware of these issues for a decade and the EU hasn't taken any measures against them.

The only action that's happened is by EPP to make it easier to kick Fidesz out of the parliamentary group (and they walked instead), but that is, from my knowledge, only about the parliamentary group - it doesn't apply to the gatherings of EPP leaders which Orban would still attend because Fidesz is (for now) still part of the EPP.

My take on the EU with Orban and Poland etc is that it goes to the core of what the EU is: it's either a liberal, democratic organisation in which case I think the emergence of authoritarian states within that framework is kind of an existential issue; or it's a tool for the member states and will reflect the decisions and values of the member states whether they are liberal and democratic or authoritarian. My own view is that generally the EU is the latter, still, but aspires to be the former - and hopefully will get there.

And I worry it might take quite a dark turn after Merkel leaves because I think there's several leaders in Europe now - Orban, Macron, Kurz, Duda - who are talking in sort of civilisational rather than value terms about Europe. Obviously there's loads of things that might change that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:28:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:25:30 PM
I don't entirely disagree on the imprisonment of Spanish politicians, but I'd hardly ay the EU has focused on Hungary. Orban's been in office and we've been aware of these issues for a decade and the EU hasn't taken any measures against them.

Yeah if the EU had also taken these non-measures against Spain would that make Crazy Ivan happy?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:31:07 PM
Meh, the politicians will be pardoned soon without need for the EU to put us in the doghouse. All in all they will have served 3 years. And while we may argue about the severity of the original sentence, what they did was very hardly beyond reproach from the courts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:31:07 PM
Meh, the politicians will be pardoned soon without need for the EU to put us in the doghouse. All in all they will have served 3 years. And while we may argue about the severity of the sentences, what they did was very hardly beyond reproach from the courts.

And at least they were consistent with laws and not some arbitrary nonsense. Maybe those laws are not consistent with EU values, whatever those might be, though.

LOOK AT HOW THEY ARE HORRIBLY VICTIMIZING POOR ORBAN BY DOING NOTHING AT ALL WHILE DOING NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT SPAIN!!!111

Seems consistent to me. You can do whatever.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:34:42 PM
And the government has announced it intends to reform those laws.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:34:55 PM
I'm pretty uncomfortable with laws that make elected politicians criminals for political acts. If they're actually planting bombs/breaking general laws then fine, but otherwise it seems very dodgy to me. And I think it's difficult to draw lines about why it's okay in Spain but not, for example, in a more authoritarian state like Hungary.

But we may soon see what the UK position on that is anyway - which is exciting :bleeding: :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:34:42 PM
And the government has announced it intends to reform those laws.

See Crazy Ivan? EU non-pressure works.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 05, 2021, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:25:30 PM

And I worry it might take quite a dark turn after Merkel leaves because I think there's several leaders in Europe now - Orban, Macron, Kurz, Duda - who are talking in sort of civilisational rather than value terms about Europe. Obviously there's loads of things that might change that.

For Macron chillax, it's just talk; previously he said there was not a French culture so I would take whatever he spouts with a huge grain of salt.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:38:13 PM
Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:34:55 PM
I'm pretty uncomfortable with laws that make elected politicians criminals for political acts. If they're actually planting bombs/breaking general laws then fine, but otherwise it seems very dodgy to me. And I think it's difficult to draw lines about why it's okay in Spain but not, for example, in a more authoritarian state like Hungary.

But we may soon see what the UK position on that is anyway - which is exciting :bleeding: :lol:

Just the misuse of public monies to fund the referendum carries a harsher sentence than the 3 years they will end up serving. Do we absolve them of everything just because somehow what they did was "political" (whatever that means).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:34:42 PM
And the government has announced it intends to reform those laws.

See Crazy Ivan? EU non-pressure works.

Gotta say I'm skeptical they will find the votes, since they are a minority government and consensus will be difficult. But they have indeed been very open that they want to push a reform forward.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:51:52 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:39:16 PM
Just the misuse of public monies to fund the referendum carries a harsher sentence than the 3 years they will end up serving. Do we absolve them of everything just because somehow what they did was "political" (whatever that means).
But it's a misuse because the referendum's illegal, right? That's my issue it's different than funneling contracts to your mates.

And you know it could apply in other states for the misuse of public money by politicians to NGOs that promot civil society or that help illegal migrants or LGBT rights.

I've no idea what the approach would be in the UK it just seems to me a bit anti-democratic and risky. I'd be very uncomfortable (and probably protesting against) any SNP politicians if they did an unlawful referendum or a UDI. I mean Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were MPs at one point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 05, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:38:13 PM
Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

Not much. Culture is mostly under lockdown
They keep repeating to the Culture sector people to be patient, for better times will come.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 01:51:52 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:39:16 PM
Just the misuse of public monies to fund the referendum carries a harsher sentence than the 3 years they will end up serving. Do we absolve them of everything just because somehow what they did was "political" (whatever that means).
But it's a misuse because the referendum's illegal, right? That's my issue it's different than funneling contracts to your mates.

And you know it could apply in other states for the misuse of public money by politicians to NGOs that promot civil society or that help illegal migrants or LGBT rights.

I've no idea what the approach would be in the UK it just seems to me a bit anti-democratic and risky. I'd be very uncomfortable (and probably protesting against) any SNP politicians if they did an unlawful referendum or a UDI. I mean Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were MPs at one point.

And why should the referendum not be illegal? They passed a law that made that referendum binding, with a proto-Catalan constitution that had to be enacted within 10 days of it. Puigdemont ultimately shat his pants, but I honestly can't see how you're supposed to turn a blind eye to that. Yes, the sedition sentence was OTT, but the current government is pretty open about wanting to remedy that (but the pardon process in Spain is long).

AFAIK, the SNP wants to do a "consultative" referendum. We had one of those in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:54:47 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 05, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:38:13 PM
Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

Not much. Culture is mostly under lockdown
They keep repeating to the Culture sector people to be patient, for better times will come.

What a great time to be a minister. "Look at all the cultural festivals we cannot hold"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 05, 2021, 01:57:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:54:47 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 05, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 01:38:13 PM
Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

Not much. Culture is mostly under lockdown
They keep repeating to the Culture sector people to be patient, for better times will come.

What a great time to be a minister. "Look at all the cultural festivals we cannot hold"

Current Culture minister is a former Health Minister who was mocked back then for being too cautious with a new Asian virus.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 05, 2021, 02:05:02 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 01:54:42 PMAnd why should the referendum not be illegal? They passed a law that made that referendum binding, with a proto-Catalan constitution that had to be enacted within 10 days of it. Puigdemont ultimately shat his pants, but I honestly can't see how you're supposed to turn a blind eye to that.

AFAIK, the SNP wants to do a "consultative" referendum. We had one of those in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it.
It all depends. That's the moderate position of the SNP at the minute (by Sturgeon), but there's a debate about what happens if they win a majority and Westminster won't allow another referendum. Hardliners want to organise an unlawful referendum and a UDI if it succeeds - there's also rumours Alex Salmond might launch a referendum and UDI party to spite Sturgeon :lol:

As I say we'll see - I don't know what the position is.

For me I'd say political punishments would be more appropriate - removing them from office and banning them from running for or holding office.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2021, 02:08:03 PM
Yeah I would say that political punishments is probably a more just course of action, if done according to the rule of law of course.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2021, 02:21:35 PM
I kinda disagree. They unilaterally attempted to abolish the rule of law, effectively trampling on the rights of people like me. What happened in 2017 was far from being an inocuous political statement and it could have gone very, very ugly. I still have engrabbed in my mind the words of the Catalan minister of interior after the referendum: "nothing bad has to happen if the new status quo is accepted".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 05, 2021, 03:02:52 PM
Yeah, I don't think that you guys really grasp all the shit that went down during those days, it was definitely not a simple political declaration that can be judged aseptically.

In any case we can keep debating this in the Spanish politics thread rather than keep hijacking this one or Tamas will throw stale paprika all over us.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 05, 2021, 03:07:07 PM
Damn right!  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 05, 2021, 03:22:22 PM
The new full rules of restrictions was supposed to be released today, and it has been, eventually. But as late as 4PM there was no official release of the doc.

Still though, it was spreading online. It was originally released on...a.. car parts webshop  :lol: For some reason them and some other mechanics got a copy. Don't ask why.

The recently well-going vaccine progress suffered a total collapse and chaos, revealing that there has been probably no up to date recording centrally of people who have been receiving shots.

It got so bad that Orban on his regular Friday radio "interview" admitted that it was botched up. I think this is the very first time he ever admitted to any sort of mistake.

It seems, as if, it is easier to gloriously fight and defeat imaginery enemies like migrants and Brussels. Going against something that actually exists is far harder.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 06, 2021, 01:49:20 PM
So I mentioned they wanted to do a "special" weekend round of vaccinations, getting done 74k at-risk under-60s using a new shipment of AZ vaccine.

This is how it unfolded up to now:

1. Thursday-ish people receive their SMS messages on being eligible for this and where to go to get their first dose during the weekend
2. Turns out a LOT of people who got messages have already had their first dose. A big number of them also was pointed to ridiculously far vaccination centres. My favourite example was a married couple both called up for the same day to two centres a 100kms apart.
3. Friday morning during his weekly radio appearance Orban admits it got messed up and that he is forming an "action group" to have it sorted. Also there's a number for people to call and report if they have any issues with the text message they got. But as it turns out he didn't have the number at hand so he told it'd be announced
4. Later the weekend program is officially cancelled, everyone received a cancellation text. Rest of Friday is spent by the opposition press (with quite some glee) trying to find out from various sources just what this elusive phone number is, but nobody says
5. Saturday morning reports appear that just in case somebody ignored their cancellation texts, the vaccination centres (by which I mean hospitals) ARE standing ready to receive people. Some people who though why not give these hospitals a call and are told yeah sure they can get their cancelled shots, some just turn up and receive it. Later in the day it is officially confirmed that anyone who goes to their cancelled appointments WILL get their jabs.

I mean, come on.  :D

Was just reading a quite passionately fed-up editorial about this whole thing and the larger context of how the regime is just inept every time there's an actual challenge to face. A nice summary of what I have been saying for quite a while:

"Orban is incapable of leading a country. What he is doing instead, is leading a crime organisation. They have taken control of all strategic points of the country, effectively disbanded the Hungarian state, and replaced it with their own people who are systematically pillaging public funds and destroying anything that are not directly beneficial to their interests. When it comes to a typical task a functioning state is supposed to be handling, they prove to be incapable of doing it."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 08, 2021, 06:30:08 AM
Not strictly having to do with Hungary, but today I read in the press here an interesting article about how the PPE kicking out Fidesz can make it lose its leadership of European politics and also extend to other European political families with strained relationships with some of its members (specific mentions are the Czech liberals and the Romanian, Bulgarian, Slovakian and Maltese socialists) and how this can cause a realignment of the traditional political families in more geographic terms, with many representatives from the newer EU arrivals feeling closer to each other than to their western counterparts, and how Orban could, theoretically, serve as a catalist for the formation of a new European illiberal/authoritarian political grouping.

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2021, 06:46:57 AM
I think it's hard to tell at this point.

Poland and Hungary are natural allies, at least their governments are. However, I'd imagine Slovakia and the Czechs would not be keen to commit to any destructive asshatery past empty platitudes of Visegrad cooperation. There were recent attempts to turn the Visegrad Group into an actual powerblock within the EU but IIRC it failed miserably.

Then again, Slovenia is already there as a proto-Poland, working hard to imitate the Hungarian example, I wouldn't put it past other East Euro members to have an authoritarian switch.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 08, 2021, 06:52:13 AM
I wouldn't say that the Visegrad group has failed to become a powerblock within the EU. Sure, its members might not be willing to become a permanent block on the EU's funcioning and some of its members might be more pragmatic, but they have made it quite visible that there's a bloc within the EU that is opposed to what were, until recently, the common ground ideas of the EU, and that the EU should take more into account the political sensibilities of CEE countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 08, 2021, 07:59:28 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 08, 2021, 06:30:08 AM
Not strictly having to do with Hungary, but today I read in the press here an interesting article about how the PPE kicking out Fidesz can make it lose its leadership of European politics and also extend to other European political families with strained relationships with some of its members (specific mentions are the Czech liberals and the Romanian, Bulgarian, Slovakian and Maltese socialists) and how this can cause a realignment of the traditional political families in more geographic terms, with many representatives from the newer EU arrivals feeling closer to each other than to their western counterparts, and how Orban could, theoretically, serve as a catalist for the formation of a new European illiberal/authoritarian political grouping.

Any thoughts on this?
I think it could be possible. The big question is whether they have more influence (cover) by being part of the large families than the would on their own. I think it's especially the case for the EPP because that has generally been the largest political group in Europe. The big division is actually foreign policy with these parties so Orban is very pro-Putin and PiS are not. Despite that they can work together and we'll have to see how much they can do that beyond narrow protective issues.

But as I say I still think the EU is fundamentally a tool for member states - I don't yet think it has enough of an independent political identity to resist or even a way of doing that. My concern is that post-Merkel we do see a turn to Europe as a slightly authoritarian/civilisational project. There's Macron's government's ongoing fight against "Islamoleftism", Michel's announcement of the EU wanting to fund a college for European Imams, Frontex who are Europe's first uniformed coercive force and, despite the jokes around Gibraltar, are primarily focused in South-Eastern Europe aggressively policing that border, and the Commissioner who was in charge of that was initially the Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life (now it's moved to "Promoting the European Way of Life"). Macron in particular seems to have gone from beating European populists by creating a Europe that protects economically to trying to outflank right-populists by promoting a Europe that protects culturally.

I think European politics will be different once Merkel goes and I've no idea how. But even if the authoritarians don't form a new group I could definitely see Macron, Salvini, Orban, Kurz etc working together this time on a, as I say, civilisational turn by the EU. I suspect that is more of a risk than a new European Parliament political bloc (not least because you can probably count on the fingers of one hand the times the Parliament goes against what member states want).

Incidentally, we focus a lot on Hungary but in a lot of ways the country that I find most alarming is Malta where you've had the murder of a journalist who was investigating government corruption and, from everything I've read, a cover-up of the investigation but it did lead to the resignation of the PM. But the Maltese Labour Party is part of the European Socialists and somehow it isn't a focus. I almost feel like we'd get more coverage of this sort of story if it was in Louisiana or Georgia than in a small EU member state (and Eurozone state). This is one of the issues of the lack of a European demos/public sphere - there is focus on Orban but there are other countries who deserve it just as much and there isn't, yet, a European press that sort of reports on this for everyone. I almost wonder if it'd be worth various European newspapers creating a joint bureau like an AP to cover other European countries plus Brussels so they didn't need to each have the costs because I imagine in terms of priorities reporting on, say, Malta and Slovenia is pretty low for most European newspapers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 08, 2021, 08:19:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 08, 2021, 07:59:28 AMIncidentally, we focus a lot on Hungary but in a lot of ways the country that I find most alarming is Malta where you've had the murder of a journalist who was investigating government corruption and, from everything I've read, a cover-up of the investigation but it did lead to the resignation of the PM. But the Maltese Labour Party is part of the European Socialists and somehow it isn't a focus. I almost feel like we'd get more coverage of this sort of story if it was in Louisiana or Georgia than in a small EU member state (and Eurozone state). This is one of the issues of the lack of a European demos/public sphere - there is focus on Orban but there are other countries who deserve it just as much and there isn't, yet, a European press that sort of reports on this for everyone. I almost wonder if it'd be worth various European newspapers creating a joint bureau like an AP to cover other European countries plus Brussels so they didn't need to each have the costs because I imagine in terms of priorities reporting on, say, Malta and Slovenia is pretty low for most European newspapers.

In the article I mentioned the Maltese were specifically mentioned as one of the "problem children" of the European Socialists precisely because of the shadow of corruption lingering over them, with the murder of Daphne Caruana leading to the resignation of their PM over their role in it as the most damning event.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 08, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 08, 2021, 08:19:38 AM
In the article I mentioned the Maltese were specifically mentioned as one of the "problem children" of the European Socialists precisely because of the shadow of corruption lingering over them, with the murder of Daphne Caruana leading to the resignation of their PM over their role in it as the most damning event.
Yeah and I think it is. But I just think that we get an update on the situation I'd say on a monthly basis in the UK and given it's seriousness - the PM has been interviewed and his Chief of Staff arrested - I feel like there should be more coverage. And I think part of the reason it's less covered is because there's no reason for every newspaper in Europe to have a Maltese correspondent, but all of these countries, even the smallest, are part of the EU and worth reporting on even aside from a huge scandal like this. That's why I wonder if there'd be value in, say, El Pais, Le Monde, La Repubblica, the Guardian etc jointly paying for journalists in especially smaller EU member states so there's some coverage before it gets to the stage of a journalist being murdered or, in the case of Slovenia, the Slovenian government apparently really cracking down on press freedoms.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 08, 2021, 09:17:00 AM
Zupiter was elected thanks to islamo-leftists votes so I would not worry too much about the use of islamo-leftism by one of his ministers in an attempt to appear to do something.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 14, 2021, 07:10:54 AM
In a good example of things are run, one of the medium-sized cities worked with their GPs to organise vaccination centres. As I understand they wanted to channel the GPs centrally received patients into these for a more organised and efficient administration of the vaccines in the city.

However, the central authorities which should approve these before use have not been cooperating. Not in the sense of rejecting an approval, but in the sense of not even bothering to reply to requests to schedule a review of the premises. It has come to the city's GPs together publishing an open letter pleading them to reply.

It is, quite likely, a relevant detail that this happens to be an opposition-run city and I would imagine no state official wants to be part of a non-Fidesz city coming up with a better solution than what the God King endorsed.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2021, 04:11:12 AM
There are always new lows. The state TV have, many years ago, become the unchained dog of Fidesz and have now a long history of outrageously one-sided and false reporting. They would really make Fox News blush.

Latest one was their news reporting on the "latest wave" of the "rampaging" pandemic in Belgium where "it is hard to tell, whether it's still the 3rd or already the 4th wave".

They reported on the terrible situation:

- Belgium is on the verge of reaching 3000 new cases per day! (Hungary's average daily case number is 7700)
- More than 2000 covid patients are in hospital! (Hungary's official number is just shy of 10 000, although Belgium has 1.6 more people)
- 300 people on respirators! (1600 in Hungary)

Now of course they didn't bother to put these numbers into Hungarian context. Well, except for one: they were eager to highlight there have been more people vaccinated in Hungary than Belgium.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 18, 2021, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 14, 2021, 07:10:54 AM
In a good example of things are run, one of the medium-sized cities worked with their GPs to organise vaccination centres. As I understand they wanted to channel the GPs centrally received patients into these for a more organised and efficient administration of the vaccines in the city.

However, the central authorities which should approve these before use have not been cooperating. Not in the sense of rejecting an approval, but in the sense of not even bothering to reply to requests to schedule a review of the premises. It has come to the city's GPs together publishing an open letter pleading them to reply.

It is, quite likely, a relevant detail that this happens to be an opposition-run city and I would imagine no state official wants to be part of a non-Fidesz city coming up with a better solution than what the God King endorsed.

And just as can be expected: the above opposition-run city still have not received any feedback on trying to setup "custom" vaccination centres, but a Fidesz-run Budapest district had theirs approved pronto.

It's some Trump level bullshit, playing petty political games with people's lives.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 31, 2021, 09:33:11 AM
I'm reading that Orban is meeting tomorrow with Salvini and Morawiecki in Budapest to create HYDRA some kind of new European ultraconservative alliance.

I find it very adequate that this new alliance is created on April Fool's. Although as a joke they probably won't be too funny.

https://euobserver.com/democracy/151408
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 03, 2021, 11:12:29 AM
https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/un-habsbourg-ambassadeur-de-hongrie-en-france-20210402 (https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/un-habsbourg-ambassadeur-de-hongrie-en-france-20210402)

New Hungarian ambassador in France is called Georg Habsburg-Lothringen.
In Hungarian, Habsburg-Lotaringiai György. Dual Austro-Hungarian citizenship, son of Otto von Habsburg, so grand-son of the last Austro-Hungarian monarch.  :hmm:

I don't think he is a danger to Orban and being sent to Paris as an ambassador is not exile. Does he have some influence on the Hungarian political life?






Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 03, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Sending a Habsburg to Paris to secure a French alliance? That always goes well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 03, 2021, 11:47:02 AM
Interesting Hungarian policy that I think might actually be pretty smart - especially in the context of a pandemic. Any vaccine that is given to 1 million plus people in the world is going to be authorised in Hungary :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 03, 2021, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 03, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Sending a Habsburg to Paris to secure a French alliance? That always goes well.

Hungarian rebels, the Kuruc, were supported by Louis XIV though.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on April 04, 2021, 03:04:55 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 03, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Sending a Habsburg to Paris to secure a French alliance? That always goes well.

Can he be: Austro-Hungarian Empire?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2021, 03:10:25 AM
The Habsburgs managed to weasel themselves in to meaningless positions since the 90s IIRC.

I am assuming with the current lot this guy can offer some connections to the inbred old aristocracy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on April 04, 2021, 03:13:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2021, 03:10:25 AM
The Habsburgs managed to weasel themselves in to meaningless positions since the 90s IIRC.

I am assuming with the current lot this guy can offer some connections to the inbred old aristocracy.

His elder brother seems to be very pro-EU and pan-European, same with their late father, so it's a bit weird that he is involved with Orban's regime.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2021, 03:43:16 AM
Beggars can't be choosers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2021, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 04, 2021, 03:13:53 AM
His elder brother seems to be very pro-EU and pan-European, same with their late father, so it's a bit weird that he is involved with Orban's regime.
But I think they're also very keen on Europe as a Christian civilisation and the EU as a civilisational project which aligns pretty well with Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 06, 2021, 05:57:41 AM
China is financing the construction of a large new Fudan University campus in Hungary. It feels weirdly appropriate that after chasing out the CEU, Orban will now be welcoming, I belive, the first campus of a Chinese public university in Europe.

That's not necessarily a bad thing in itself. It just feels like there can be space for the CEU and Fudan, but if there's no space for the CEU but there is for Fudan that's slightly telling.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2021, 06:48:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 06, 2021, 05:57:41 AM
China is financing the construction of a large new Fudan University campus in Hungary. It feels weirdly appropriate that after chasing out the CEU, Orban will now be welcoming, I belive, the first campus of a Chinese public university in Europe.

That's not necessarily a bad thing in itself. It just feels like there can be space for the CEU and Fudan, but if there's no space for the CEU but there is for Fudan that's slightly telling.

I posted about this around 5 pages back. :P

Yes it feels like a great addition to what he is building

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s---3U1K19L--/h_225,w_340/7VNGey0naLfr11mgOs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 06, 2021, 06:48:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 06, 2021, 06:48:11 AM
I posted about this around 5 pages back. :P
:lol: I think I even commented about 5 pages back :ph34r: :blush:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 08, 2021, 04:37:03 AM
(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--pFz-xVnf--/w_1160/7aQy6wn4o1XsK1BFs.jpeg)


"JOURNALIST PROVOKES WITH QUESTIONS"

The state TV news show made a feature around reviewing the email questions received by one of the prominent MEPs from an Austrian journalist ladies regarding the (apparenty failed) Polish-Italian-Hungarian populist alliance meeting Orban organised recently.

As always, they painstakingly kept to their official policy of neutrality and reporting without commenting, with ingenious lines such as "the first question was, why nobody was invited from the French Rassemblent National or the Austrian FPO. First of all, only amateur journalists ask a question on why somebody who was never meant to be there was not there. But, the aim is clear: to wash together those two organisations, labelled as right-wing by the Western mainstream media, with the forming alliance"

etc etc

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 08, 2021, 04:43:51 AM
Also, far more sinister: it seems like the government and their media is ramping up a campaign on blaming the terrible pandemic situation on the "anti-vaccination" opposition i.e. at all the opposition parties. With lines like "they agitated against the Eastern vaccines and it has cost lives".

Needless to say none of them are against vaccinations, they even have been quite careful not to criticise the Chinese vaccine stuff. Last week, the various opposition party leaders released a video made in cooperation where they all urge people to go and get vaccinated.

But of course the government media (literally everything apart from one national TV channel and a few online sites with a few ten thousand readers/viewers) will not mention that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 08, 2021, 05:11:37 AM
This is about Poland - but interesting piece by probably my favourite writer on Europe about press there, Hungary is already at the "twilight moment":
QuoteUnder cover of Covid, Poland is stifling free media – and all Europe should be worried
Timothy Garton Ash

A planned 'coronavirus tax' on revenues and attacks on foreign-owned media threaten to cut away democracy piece by piece

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/92beb3847a8255e2d7c362ba9880ca7e4c5b75a0/0_400_6000_3600/master/6000.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=4a6e73ff79bc45d023e49c8e5ae86796)
Gazeta Wyborcza's front page reads 'Media without choice' in February, protesting against the new media tax. Photograph: Wojtek Radwański/AFP/Getty Images
Thu 8 Apr 2021 07.00 BST

Democracy dies in darkness. One of the European Union's most fragile democracies, Poland, now faces the spectre of the night that falls when public service media have been turned into propaganda organs for a ruling party while private, independent media are suffocated. In the end, light is cast no more on the failings and abuses of those in power, because there are no more torches to shine that light. Hungary – which is no longer a democracy – has almost reached that twilight moment, with the extinction of its last major independent radio station.

Poland is still a long way from dusk, but the threat is real. In the World Press Freedom index, the country has sunk from 18th in 2015, ahead of Britain and France, to 62nd last year. (Hungary is down at 89th.)

If you watched only Polish state television news over the last fortnight, you would have no idea that Poland is currently among the countries doing the worst during the pandemic. According to Bloomberg's Covid resilience ranking, Poland has fallen to 50th place among the world's 53 largest economies, with only Brazil, the Czech Republic and Mexico performing worse. But switch on the official news and, after brief mention of the latest Covid figures, there are long items about how the government is speeding up the vaccination campaign, with the help of the wonderful army, and how terrible the opposition's record was on public health when it was in power. In other "news", you learn how brilliant Poland's relations are with the US, especially in defence; how much money the government is pumping into the railways and local government; how Christians are being persecuted all over the world; and how a grave was recently uncovered showing more victims of wartime German occupation. The propaganda is more extreme but also more skilful than during the last decade of communist rule.


Only when you turn to the independent TVN24 news do you see footage of long queues of ambulances waiting outside hospitals, because there are no more intensive care beds, and hear doctors explaining how terrible the public health situation really is. TVN24 is not BBC-impartial, but it does serious journalism and gives you the other side of the story. The same "two realities" experience can be had switching from state to private radio, or from government-supporting papers to independent and opposition ones.

Such a hyper-polarised public sphere is already bad enough, as we see in the US, but now the ruling Law and Justice party has launched a systematic attack on independent media. The methods are straight out of Viktor Orbán's playbook in Hungary. Public sector advertising and subscriptions are withdrawn from independent media. All sorts of regulatory chicanery is used against them. Public money is pumped into state television and radio. A "pandemic tax" is proposed on media advertising revenue. A projected law on the "repolonisation" of media would target foreign owners of the biggest independent outlets. A state-owned petrol company, PKN Orlen, whose boss is a Law and Justice party crony, buys both a major press distributor, Ruch, and the largest network of regional newspapers, Polska Press. The most critical papers are bombarded with lawsuits. Gazeta Wyborcza counts more than 60 lawsuits, including one from the justice minister in person. And, as European legal authorities have repeatedly determined, the independence of Polish courts has been so far eroded that you can no longer rely on a fair trial.

This is that old Hungarian speciality, salami tactics: eliminating freedom slice by slice.

Polish media and civil society are resisting strongly, but they need a little help from their friends. The US matters enormously here. The Law and Justice government and president, Andrzej Duda, make much of their special relationship with Washington. But they were strong supporters of Donald Trump, who in return gave Duda electoral assistance last summer. The administration of Joe Biden owes them no favours, and it has an agenda that claims to be strong on democracy and human rights. As well as defending TVN, which is owned by the US company Discovery, Washington should now highlight independent media as the frontline of defending democracy in Poland.

Britain counts for less than it once did in Warsaw because of Brexit but, along with other liberal democracies such as Canada and Australia, it can help turn the spotlight on this issue. Germany is of the first importance, and a German-Swiss group, Ringier Axel Springer, owns one of the most important Polish online platforms, Onet.pl, the tabloid Fakt and a leading weekly, Newsweek Polska. The Polish government tries to silence Berlin by constantly bringing up the second world war, but the proper lesson from that history is not that Germany must be particularly reticent on these issues. It is precisely because of that terrible past that Germany should be the first to speak up for freedom and human rights.

Most important, and most problematic, is the EU. One of the most depressing discoveries of the last few years is that the EU, which spends so much time talking about democracy, is pathetically ineffective when it comes to defending democracy inside its own member states. Now it is going to hand out many more billions of euros to those states, both from the EU-wide post-Covid recovery fund and from the bloc's new seven-year budget. Huge sums will go directly to the populist nationalist governments in Warsaw and Budapest, with only minimal conditions attached. Most of those great investments trumpeted on Polish state television news are done with the help of EU money. At the very least, the EU should make it crystal clear that, under single market rules, foreign media owners may on no account be discriminated against. It should distribute a significant chunk of the new money directly through local government – as suggested by the mayors of Warsaw and Budapest. And it should create a substantial EU fund for the defence of media freedom across the continent.

Last week, the leadership of Poland's Law and Justice party began talks with Orbán and Matteo Salvini of Italy about forming a new populist nationalist grouping in the EU. It is not just democracy in Poland that is at stake here; it is democracy in Europe as a whole.

    Timothy Garton Ash is a Guardian columnist

It reminds me of a recent piece in the New Statesman on why, despite the predictions of some UK politicians, no other country had left the EU. Basically the argument was Brexit was messy and difficult, the UK was always half in/half out (basically it's easier to even imagine leaving if you're an island with one land border) and, crucially, Orban showed that being in the EU is no obstacle to implementing a far-right anti-democratic agenda.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 09, 2021, 04:18:27 AM
A potentially very worrying thing I expect Poland and the other padawans will begin to copy eventually, is the creation of what is growing to become a parallel state, removed from the control of elected officials.

At the heart of it is money and power, of course, as always. It seems at least some in Fidesz are worried about losing power and are working on ensuring they will not lose access to payout places.

The way for them to do this are "public foundations". They have been creating these mostly to manage and oversee universities but there have been public foundations created to manage public properties like parks, castles etc. as well.

What does this mean? Quite simple, really: these public foundations receive substantial money from the national budget when formed, and also they must continue to be funded from taxpayer money annually, as first priority, according to law.

And in fact, the public foundation law has not only be made an absolute-majority one (if someone wants to change it) but also this institution of "public foundations" have been added to the constitution as well.

Although at the point of creation it is the government appointing the leadership of these foundations, afterwards they enjoy full autonomy and the state or government are forbidden to exercise any control over their appointments, or budget.

So, essentially, this way they can shelter substantial amounts of annual taxpayer money - not to mention the power and influence wielded by the institutions under such control - away from a "hostile" government even if they happen to lose the election.

Any non-Fidesz government, in turn, will lose all control over substantial elements of the state, unless they can get a 2/3rd majority,

I guess one positive spin on this is that at least they are still thinking of contingencies for losing power at some point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 09, 2021, 04:25:41 AM
That is called "paralel administration" over here, and was quite popular during the 200s, don't go around thinking that you invented corruption in Hungary.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 09, 2021, 05:35:54 AM
There's been a scuff with Austria - an Austrian journalist asked the Fidesz Brussels delegation why they met with Lega Nord's Salvini and Poland's Mateusz Morawiecki, but not with members of the French Front National or Austria's FPÖ.

Fidesz refused to answer the questions and instead started a campaign in Hungarian media that this amateur journalist asking silly questions was another example of left wing liberal media attacking conservative-Christian politics.

Austrian foreign minister and the ambassador in Budapest both protested against the campaign.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 09, 2021, 06:49:48 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 09, 2021, 05:35:54 AM
There's been a scuff with Austria - an Austrian journalist asked the Fidesz Brussels delegation why they met with Lega Nord's Salvini and Poland's Mateusz Morawiecki, but not with members of the French Front National or Austria's FPÖ.

Fidesz refused to answer the questions and instead started a campaign in Hungarian media that this amateur journalist asking silly questions was another example of left wing liberal media attacking conservative-Christian politics.

Austrian foreign minister and the ambassador in Budapest both protested against the campaign.

Yeah I covered the state TV take on this the previous page, it's been escalating since, but that's very good for Fidesz. The pandemic situation is abysmal they need reminders of the good fight they are fighting protecting their people from the conquering gender-changing West.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 16, 2021, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2021, 03:10:25 AM
The Habsburgs managed to weasel themselves in to meaningless positions since the 90s IIRC.

I am assuming with the current lot this guy can offer some connections to the inbred old aristocracy.

Maybe they are laying in wait to try what they tried 100 years ago this month: THE HABSBURG COUP! https://www.youtube.com/watchv=hqgcDHCvk9I
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 29, 2021, 08:07:21 AM
https://insighthungary.444.hu/2021/04/29/hungary-will-not-expel-russian-diplomats-over-czech-explosion-alone-in-the-v4
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2021, 06:15:19 PM
Next step of Russification, here we go!

So, I think I mentioned here a year or so ago a Fidesz-appointed ambassador in South America got busted by the Americans for having thousands of child pornography images on his computer, but back home in Hungary he got a suspended sentence akin to a slap on the wrist.

This was very unpopular of course and there was some government talk on a new law to "protect children".

A month or so ago they did propose a new bill to ensure stricter steps against pedophiles. It had some questionnable things like listing convicted ones US sex-offender style and such, and I think it was fairly obvious they were hoping on some of these controversial baits, the opposition parties would bite. Next year there'll be "elections" after all.

But, the opposition parties did not bite. Those who acted on this bill PR-wise asked for more severe punishments. Overall the controversy factor was pretty low since it concerned how to act with convicted pedos. So this was a dud.

Worry not, though. The government has come up with fresh modifications to this anti-child molester bill (highlights from state news service's summary):

-The law will say that school sex education "can't be to encourage gender change or popularise homosexuality"
-There will be detailed rules on only specially accredited persons being able to hold sex ed sessions to avoid the influence "organisations created to represent special sexual orientations" who "under the guise of arguing against discrimination seek to influence children's sexual orientation"
-Children under the state's care will "also have their right to maintain their identity according to their birth sex protected by the state" - whatever that means
-Under age of 18, nobody can be shown/given access to content with pornography, profane sexuality, or which promotes diversion of identity from birth sex or homosexuality. This includes advertisements as well.


To accusations of the law being homophobic, Fidesz said "real liberalism would be if children were left alone with questions considering their sexual orientation until they reach the age of 18".

I am not really surprised they'll go after not "just" transgenders to find a new enemy (they have started that a while ago) but homosexuals as well, but it really is disgusting.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 14, 2021, 08:29:06 AM
On the above, RTL Hungary, the biggest (and only) nationwide government-free TV station released a condemnation of the bill and highlighted that if it is to be taken literally, such movies series will need to be moved to late night slots and getting an 18+ rating:

-Billy Elliott
-Philadelphia
-Bridget Jones' Diary
-some of the Harry Potter movies
-Modern Family
-Friends
-few Hungarian TV series you never heard of
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 14, 2021, 12:11:06 PM
Two very striking threads from Mujtaba Rahman:
QuoteMujtaba Rahman
@Mij_Europe
Jun 2
Very concerning news out of Hungary. Orban, apparently fearing civil unrest in next year's election, wants to give the Hungarian army a "freer hand" to control civil unrest. You are defined by the company you keep. Does Orban want to emulate the Putin, Lukashenko playbook? 1/
As I understand it, under current legal restrictions, members of the Hungarian armed forces aren't allowed to open fire on civilians except under the command of the police. Orban is now preparing to allow the military independent action during protests 2/
Hungary's armed forces chief Ferenc Korom resigned unexpectedly half way through his term last week, officially because his immediate tasks, including army reorganisation & relocation of command HQ had been completed 3/
But there have been leaked reports of acrimonious disputes between the military leadership & Defence Minister Tibor Benko. Things came to a head last week - with Benko demanding a new role for the army in terms of controlling potential civil unrest 4/
To be clear: Despite Orban's authoritarian streak, it's highly unlikely he has any desire for troops to make use of live ammunition in any possible future unrest. Rather, this is a new phase in his use of intimidatory tactics 5/
Remember, Orban has already gone over the top - deploying troops in hospitals, "strategic companies" & in tandem with police on street patrols in Budapest & elsewhere since declaring a national "state of danger" in March 2020 to fight Covid 6/
This move, then, is another indication of Orban's fear of losing next spring's national elections.
He should be. Despite gerrymandering, massive media dominance & corruption, the united, six-party opposition alliance is leading Fidesz in the polls by a silk thread (33%-32%) ENDS

And then today:
QuoteMujtaba Rahman
@Mij_Europe
8h
On the day of NATO summit, it's worth re-highlighting that PM Orban wants to give HU military the right to control civilian protestors without coming under police control - & making the Chief of Army responsible for any resulting tragedies. I tweeted about this in early June 1/
While I don't believe Orban wants to use live ammunition on civilians, I understand this potential scenario was the principal reason for the sudden resignation of Ferenc Korom, Hungary's armed forces chief (Korom was also being asked to sign off on corrupt arms procurement deals)
I understand Korom, who had huge respect as a "soldiers' soldier" from senior officers to the lowly private in the Hungarian forces, refused to buckle under enormous pressure to agree to this 3/
As one officer put it: "The General was my commander in Hódmezővásárhely [a town in SE Hungary]. A real soldier. I am humanly and professionally sorry that he became a victim of politics." 4/
He, along with his deputy Lieutenant General Gabor Borondi and at least one other senior commander, have been packed off incommunicado to allow the dust to settle 5/
At a meeting on 31 May at Hungarian Army HQ in Szekesfehervar, Defence Minister Tibor Benko and Korom's replacement, Romulusz Ruszin-Szendi, warned all senior officers that releasing any information about Korom's departure amounted to a military crime against the state 6/
Losing your job, your children's school and a host of other perks is not high on anyone's list of swaps for a spell in a military jail, of course, so free-speaking officers are not exactly easy to locate right now 7/
Nonetheless, as far as I can tell, my original thread has been ignored by the Hungarian media, even though some journalists have asked me for my sources 8/
So here are some more nuggets of information that might assist local journalists to flesh out the story. This, as far as I understood and can reconstruct, is a sketchy time-line of recent events 9/
May 25: Korom wrote a letter to Janos Ader, the President of Hungary, stating that he did not wish to sign or even consider any order for the future involvement of soldiers on the street. Nor would he sign off some some payments files relating to certain army procurements 10/
May 26: In a closed session, Orbán discussed this with his inner circle, and instructed President Ader to fire Korom with immediate effect 11/
May 27: Around 6.00 AM Korom's resignation was reported in the Hungarian Gazette. Neither Korom nor any of his staff members knew about this, only hearing about it from the media at about 7.00 AM 12/
7.00 – 8.00 AM, Korom tried to talk about this with both President Ader and PM Orban. Neither answered his call 13/
Approx 9.00 AM, Korom and some other staff members received notice of immediate dismissal from the Presidential Office. They were also some sent on mandatory vacation for an indefinite period 14/
All their military ID and rights were withdrawn, so they could not access their desks or offices. All military mobile phones, laptops, and other equipment pieces were confiscated by Intelligence Officers 15/
Some local sources tell me the bigger reason Korom's dismissal was his sabotaging/resisting of corruption. And that an amendment to allow the military to control protests without the police was already passed in 2016. This may also be a factor in the story 16/
Still, what was being forced on Korom was that HE would personally have to sign any such orders allowing soldiers to control protestors. This would mean that henceforth, politicians could wriggle out of any responsibility & blame the Chief of Army for any deaths or injuries 17/
Hopefully this is a start for local media hacks. Some of the detail may have been distorted in the telling, if so I'm open to correction by folks on the ground. But I'm confident the essence of the above is accurate
ENDS
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 14, 2021, 12:58:49 PM
I haven't heard of this, although I am sure they will reach this stage eventually.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on June 23, 2021, 04:19:38 AM
So, a bunch of EU countries have signed a statement condemning Hungary's anti-LGBT law, and I feel that it serves a bit like a "line in the sand" kind of issue to see who's on each side about this and similar issues:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4jfOgoWYAYNXbv?format=jpg&name=small)

Good on the Baltics to be moving towards tolerance, dissappointed about Austria and Greece, and maybe Slovenia as well (although maybe not a surprise due to its current government).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:29:40 AM
What Hungary wants to do is Hungary's business. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on June 23, 2021, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:29:40 AM
What Hungary wants to do is Hungary's business.

How many social points is that comment worth?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 23, 2021, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:29:40 AM
What Hungary wants to do is Hungary's business.

How many social points is that comment worth?

None  :P

I mean, the idea that sovereign states should not interfere in other sovereign states' business probably originated in the Peace of Westphalia, not me. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 23, 2021, 05:24:29 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 23, 2021, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:29:40 AM
What Hungary wants to do is Hungary's business.

How many social points is that comment worth?

None  :P

I mean, the idea that sovereign states should not interfere in other sovereign states' business probably originated in the Peace of Westphalia, not me.

They are not interfering they are reacting. You act like a jerk you'll be treated like a jerk
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on June 23, 2021, 05:31:32 AM
Reading about this law and the opposition reaction...
Surprised to see Jobbik are apparently a normal moderate party now? I remember that name from when they were the far right nutters of concern.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on June 23, 2021, 05:40:08 AM
Austria  :mad:

(a government member called the law "worrying" yesterday, and the chancellor condemned the law *checks calendar* this morning and supports the letter now)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 23, 2021, 05:46:45 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2021, 05:31:32 AM
Reading about this law and the opposition reaction...
Surprised to see Jobbik are apparently a normal moderate party now? I remember that name from when they were the far right nutters of concern.

Well, I mean they still voted with the government on this one.

But basically yes. With the "migration crisis" from 2015 Fidesz pivoted sharply to the far right, occupying all the space Jobbik used to. So their leadership decided to flow closer to the now-empty middle. WIth little success, mind.

It didn't go well with the principled nazis of their party who ended up seceding and creating a Fidesz-satellite "radical" called Mi Hazank (Our Home/Nation).

Jobbik's current leader seems to be a fairly charismatic young guy who has been fairly successful in navigating the needs to do the sort of populist modern politics which can still reach people despite the overwhelming government control of media (schenanigans in Parliament, simple slogans, being in the forefront during protests etc) while appearing a moderate. But it seems protecting gay rights was a step too far and their party didn't dare risk it. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on June 23, 2021, 08:02:21 AM
(https://preview.redd.it/bzjw8qo080771.png?width=640&height=485&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ca0c2e4f409754363ae30d66d1eb25fa65b89f06)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on June 23, 2021, 08:10:10 AM
Greece has joined too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on June 23, 2021, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2021, 08:10:10 AM
Greece has joined too.

That wasn't included in the update on Austrian reddit. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 23, 2021, 04:16:44 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 23, 2021, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 23, 2021, 04:29:40 AM
What Hungary wants to do is Hungary's business.

How many social points is that comment worth?

None  :P

I mean, the idea that sovereign states should not interfere in other sovereign states' business probably originated in the Peace of Westphalia, not me. 

Ok but Hungary gets extensive financial support and military protection from other states in the name of our shared values. If they do not share those values it is only fair they do not get those benefits. Nobody forced them to enter into agreements based on shared domestic values.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on June 23, 2021, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 23, 2021, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2021, 08:10:10 AM
Greece has joined too.

That wasn't included in the update on Austrian reddit. :P

My initial reaction was "hey that map looks familiar..." then I noticed Greece and Austria as the odd ones out.

So it is literally the cold war borders now except Cyprus traded for the baltics?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on June 26, 2021, 10:00:01 AM
So, the Hungarian government has taken a full page ad today in Spain's more traditional right wing newspaper outlining their proposals for the future of the EU.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4zQXVhXEAQbvIq?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on June 26, 2021, 10:15:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 26, 2021, 10:00:01 AM
So, the Hungarian government has taken a full page ad today in Spain's more traditional right wing newspaper outlining their proposals for the future of the EU.

They apparently did (or tried to do) this in multiple countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on June 26, 2021, 10:18:43 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2021, 10:15:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 26, 2021, 10:00:01 AM
So, the Hungarian government has taken a full page ad today in Spain's more traditional right wing newspaper outlining their proposals for the future of the EU.

They apparently did (or tried to do) this in multiple countries.

I was wondering in how many other countries they've tried to pull this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on June 26, 2021, 10:19:42 AM
On reddit someone posted the Danish version, and someone else commented that a Belgian paper refused to print it and instead made an article about it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 26, 2021, 10:31:08 AM
I think it's far better and good that it's an advert on behalf of the government of Hungary rather than buying sponsored content in newspapers (as China has done in the past) or sort of buying a think-tanker to do an opinion piece. At least it is clearly where this is coming from.

Though also obviously fine for a paper to refuse any advert they're not comfortable with and refuse the cash (although I think they may be exposed to charges of hypocrisy depending on their general advertising strategy). And it's definitely a story if they tried.

It'd be interesting to see which papers in each country they think is either sympathetic to them or has a readership sympathetic to them :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 26, 2021, 10:50:21 AM
I'll be optimistic and read this as the European uproar over the anti-gay law catching them off guard and scrambling to re-establish the European rapport Orban has been told by his minions that he enjoys.
Hopefully it's that and not the start of a ramping up of anti-EU sentiment in preparation to next year's elections.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on June 26, 2021, 11:00:06 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 26, 2021, 10:31:08 AM
I think it's far better and good that it's an advert on behalf of the government of Hungary rather than buying sponsored content in newspapers (as China has done in the past) or sort of buying a think-tanker to do an opinion piece. At least it is clearly where this is coming from.

Though also obviously fine for a paper to refuse any advert they're not comfortable with and refuse the cash (although I think they may be exposed to charges of hypocrisy depending on their general advertising strategy). And it's definitely a story if they tried.

It'd be interesting to see which papers in each country they think is either sympathetic to them or has a readership sympathetic to them :hmm:

"ABC" is probably the closest to their ideological profile, although not as extreme. If we were to apply the "He sees himself as/Others see him as" meme they think themselves as the Spanish The Times, while they are just a hoary version of the Daily Mail.

I wonder if they tried to publish in El Mundo, who has a larger readership and is also conservative, although more economically liberal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 26, 2021, 11:05:44 AM
I guess that makes Orban somewhat more progressive than Macro; he agrees with Serbia being an EU member, unlike Macron.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 28, 2021, 08:22:36 AM
The defeat of the Dutch in Budapest nicely coincided with the Dutch calls for Hungary to GTFO of the EU for government media to treat this like pro-rainbow flag Dutch defeated and humiliated by righteous Visegrad Four heteros.

This is from one of the major "independent" propaganda newspapers:

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7cTUnEocVi39DFF2s.png?format=auto&width=663&height=756)

Under the picture:

QuoteHolland brought to their knees
Gabor Dzsingisz [no idea who this is]: In the Dutch PM's place I'd humbly hide in the corner
Dark spots in the past of the Dutch PM
etc etc
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 28, 2021, 11:55:23 AM
Meanwhile anti-gay propaganda is bearing fruit in Russification.

Last week two German ladies were insulted and spat at by a father-son duo due to their rainbow-coloured face paint. These (the father son duo, not the ladies) have been caught by the police.

Even more serious, a gay couple was beaten up in one of the cities (Pecs) quite seriously, one of them to the point of losing consciousness. Perpetrators have been arrested in this case as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 28, 2021, 12:12:28 PM
Grim.

I find the Russification side of the LGBT debate in Europe really interesting. For example I know that Tbilisi Pride and Kyiv Pride are now broadly endorsed/allowed by their states in a way they weren't before because it is seen as a point of contrast with Russia. Similarly they've established lots of links with pro-LGBT European parliamentarians (at European and national level) for solidarity/support but also, from a Georgian or Ukrainian effort, I imagine as part of a soft power effort to align with Western Europe.

I don't think it was inevitable it would happen over this issue - I don't know if Putin used a wedge issue that existed within Europe or if it has become a wedge issue because Putin used it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 28, 2021, 12:20:26 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 28, 2021, 11:55:23 AM
Meanwhile anti-gay propaganda is bearing fruit in Russification.

Last week two German ladies were insulted and spat at by a father-son duo due to their rainbow-coloured face paint. These (the father son duo, not the ladies) have been caught by the police.

Even more serious, a gay couple was beaten up in one of the cities (Pecs) quite seriously, one of them to the point of losing consciousness. Perpetrators have been arrested in this case as well.

Missing an islamic republic in Hungary with a Kadyrov to be 100% Russified.   :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 28, 2021, 12:26:20 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 28, 2021, 12:12:28 PM
Grim.

I find the Russification side of the LGBT debate in Europe really interesting. For example I know that Tbilisi Pride and Kyiv Pride are now broadly endorsed/allowed by their states in a way they weren't before because it is seen as a point of contrast with Russia. Similarly they've established lots of links with pro-LGBT European parliamentarians (at European and national level) for solidarity/support but also, from a Georgian or Ukrainian effort, I imagine as part of a soft power effort to align with Western Europe.

I don't think it was inevitable it would happen over this issue - I don't know if Putin used a wedge issue that existed within Europe or if it has become a wedge issue because Putin used it.

I don't know. Every year less and less far-right idiots attended counter protests for Budapest Pride (Although I am sure of it a friendly government being in place and not wanting to cause trouble unless told to played a part). But then I am surprised how little it took to escalate things into violence and a very anti-tolerance line of talk in government media. It has gone from absolute non-issue to Number 1 Grievance - I am not sure that's possible without something simmering under the surface.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 28, 2021, 12:33:12 PM
I can't find it now but Hungary is one of the few countries (in the world) where polling on LGBT stuff has gone backwards in the last few years so I think it reflects something for sure.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2021, 04:27:13 PM
Announced yesterday and in effect from today, anonymous donations to organisations have been banned. Charities/NGOs now must collect details of everyone making a donation, and submit the list annually to the government. If the donation comes from a private company, the charity/NGO must list the owners of it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on July 07, 2021, 04:35:25 AM
QuoteEU urged to suspend funds to Hungary over 'grave breaches of the rule of law'
Action follows Viktor Orbán passing law banning LGBT content in schools and mishandling of EU funds

Ursula von der Leyen is being urged to suspend EU funds to Hungary to force Viktor Orbán to address concerns over politicised courts and corruption.

MEPs who work on the European parliament's budgetary control committee are calling on the European Commission president to use a newly created EU law to freeze payments to Hungary for "grave breaches of the rule of law".

It is the latest salvo against the Hungarian prime minister, who last month faced unprecedented criticism from fellow EU leaders over a law that bans the depiction of gay people in educational material. The European parliament is expected to condemn that law in a resolution on Thursday that will urge the commission to launch a fast-track legal case against Hungary over discrimination against LGBT people.

Long before the Hungarian parliament passed the controversial LGBT law, EU member states and MEPs were alarmed by Hungary's spending of EU funds, including a contract for street lights awarded to Orbán's son-in law, as well as a vintage train to Orbán's home village.

The MEPs base their case on a report by three academics, who conclude that "grave breaches of the rule of law" mean the EU executive is legally justified in suspending payments to Hungary to protect EU taxpayers.

"The lack of transparent management of EU funds, the lack of an effective national prosecution service and the lack of guarantees of judicial independence show that Hungary has already egregiously violated basic rule-of-law principles," states the report drafted by three professors in EU law and politics.

The report highlights laboratories in 43 schools that cost €1m (£850,000) each and were part funded by the European social fund. A European Commission investigation found that each classroom was charged separately for the development of textbooks, even though all used the same book. Brussels asked for some money to be repaid after concluding that the Hungarian authorities had not corrected several spending "irregularities".

"What we want is for the rule of law to function in Hungary, not because we have a sanctions fetish," said German Green MEP Daniel Freund, who commissioned the report. "We basically want the re-establishment of the rule of law."

The MEPs are not suggesting a particular amount of money to be frozen – in 2018 Hungary received €6.3bn from the EU, equivalent to nearly 5% of its economy. The Hungarian government has requested a further €7.2bn from the EU's coronavirus recovery fund.

It would be up to the commission to decide which EU payments to freeze, Freund said. "It should not be ordinary Hungarian citizens that suffer from this, it should punish the government, so the commission would have to identify the right budget lines," said the MEP, who conceded that the decision would not be easy.

"I think the commission has to explain to everyone else why billions and billions of your taxpayer money is going to Hungary when there is no management and control system that works on the ground," he said.

Any attempt to halt payments to an EU country over democratic checks and balances would be a test case for the EU's rule of law "conditionality" regulation. Hungary's government is challenging the law in the European court of justice, prompting concerns that the commission may be reluctant to act.

A European Commission spokesperson said: "The regulation entered into force on 1 January 2021 and the commission has been monitoring possible breaches of the rule-of-law principles that would be relevant under the regulation since day one."

Orbán was this week was named a "press freedom predator" by Reporters Without Borders.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 07, 2021, 05:35:36 AM
I think that would be a good idea for the normal EU funds.

Though I wouldn't want to see any conditionality or link to rule of law on the covid recovery funds because I think that it is different. Like the government or not, Hungary were in the club and were hit by the pandemic so should get that in my view.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 13, 2021, 05:49:56 AM
The mayor of Budapest requested (under the Hungarian version of the freedom of information act basically, giving public access to publicly funded stuff) the documents which prompted the decision of giving the properties meant for affordable student accommodations to the Chinese Fudan university instead.

And he, indeed, received them:

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7cpNb4u15lREK0SHs.jpeg?format=auto&width=663)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7cpNbBGo0D5HK0SHs.jpeg?format=auto&width=663)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7cpNbGi3R2uYK0SHs.jpeg?format=auto&width=663)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7cpNbNAhiLZ9K0SHs.jpeg?format=auto&width=663)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7cpNbTQ2BKJ6K0SHs.jpeg?format=auto&width=663)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 13, 2021, 08:08:50 AM
Even though I cannot read or understand Hungarian at all I still learned as much from that document as the mayor of Budapest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on July 13, 2021, 08:12:59 AM
:lol:

Seriously though. Wtf?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 16, 2021, 01:07:31 PM
A couple of days ago 3 men tried to forcefully break into a Budapest flat late at night, because the residents put a rainbow flag on their balcony. The gay couple renting the place and the 3 years old child of one of them were at home.

They called the police and the attackers gave up minutes before the police arrived. They did leave some anti-LMBTQ stickers on their door though.

The police refused to log the case (not sure how you call that in English) saying there was no property or personal damage done. According to the victims the police officers were kind and helpful, but suggested they remove the flag and not showcase it again, to avoid such future incidents. Allegedly they mentioned "there's this new law, you probably heard about it".


:(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 16, 2021, 01:17:09 PM
:(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 16, 2021, 01:18:00 PM
Grim :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 16, 2021, 01:29:37 PM
It is scary that the police officer's comment of "there's been this new law" to me indicates that they and probably most people are perfectly obvious of the blatantly obvious, i.e. in which direction that particular law is leading the country. Needless to say even that disgusting law has nothing in it that would prevent people from showcasing bloody rainbow colours. But homosexuals and transgendered people have had a target painted on them and I don't think it's going to get any better anytime soon.

It's far less grim, more like ridiculous in a sad way, I saw this infamous law in action the first time yesterday. A couple of online news sites reported that the daily TV series of RTL Klub, the last remaining independent TV channel (think Coronation Street just in a Hungarian context), is going to feature two ladies kissing in an upcoming episode, thus in effect challenging the law.

Now, because of the new law, these sites had to put their articles behind an "are you 18 or over" confirmation page, because as illustration they used the screenshot from the episode's trailer, i.e a photo of two (fully clothed) women kissing each other on the mouth. :bleeding:

EDIT: here you go, found the pic for you. HIDE YOUR KIDS

(https://media.port.hu/images/001/378/794.png?939229347)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 21, 2021, 01:04:11 PM
Probably motivated in part by the Pegasus scandal, Orban is doubling down on the whole anti-gay thing, he has announced a new "child protection" national referendum, with 5 so-called questions:

1. Do you support that in public educational institutions, minors (under 18s) be educated in sexual orientations without their parents approval?

2. Do you support that gender change surgeries be popularised for minors?

3. Do you support that gender change surgery be available for minors?

4. Do you support that minors be shown, without restrictions, media content aimed at influencing their sexual orientation?

5. Do you support that minors be shown media content displaying changes of gender?


:x
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 02, 2021, 01:36:18 PM
Orban meeting with Tucker Carlson ahead for an upcoming interview which I'm sure will be a delight :ph34r: :bleeding:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7zexiiXoAQOwYJ?format=jpg&name=360x360)

I think there's an entire book on how Orban is arguably the most influential politician since 2010. In Europe he's key as a model for Salvini, Duda etc and in shaping immigration policy (I often think about his line - I think a couple of years ago - that in 2015 when he suggested the "externalisation" of Europe's border, he was alone but now everyone is with him). And in the English speaking world I think he's been key as a model of culture warring illiberal democracy (especially in the sort of Rod Dreher, Sohrab, Ahmari - "National Conservatism" bit of American politics) and as a model on social conservatism - the number of times I read otherwise sane conservatives suddenly swerving into how wonderful Orban's "pro-family" policies are.

All of which is a hell of an impact from a country of ten million in CEE.

Edit: And that it's Carlson is striking. I can definitely see him running as an Orban style "national conservative", "pro-family" Republican - and I can see that working, not least because Carlson is smarter than Trump.

Edit: Apparently Carlson's going to be in Hungary for a week:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E70w6UUX0AwDdpG?format=jpg&name=small)

And I've seen on the sort of "common good" right this sort of defence - that Hungary is a model because it's a country that doesn't hate itself, supports its families knows Christianity and European/Hungarian identity are inseparable.

We all said imagine a demagogue who was cleverer and more competent than Trump - I think Carlson is out there trying to show them that route (and may even be that demagogue).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 03, 2021, 10:18:47 AM
I look forward to Tucker going after Orban for his attacks on free speech, his corruption, and cowardly selling out to the ChiComs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on August 03, 2021, 04:35:57 PM
A good spot for Carlson to get some Russian money and input as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 06, 2021, 11:48:16 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8ENyIDWEAAjbal?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Excerpt: https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1423441391561191426?s=20
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 06, 2021, 12:45:40 PM
Is driving away most of your young people really a good pro-family policy? It seems likely to reduce the number of families.

A tiny fertility rate and a rapidly aging and shrinking population, obvious evidence of prospering families. Way to go Tucker.

On the other hand a shrinking economy and population is good for reducing carbon emissions. Maybe green parties around the world should be studying his policies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 06, 2021, 01:07:56 PM
Also despite social conservatives love of Hungary's pro-family policies turning around demographic catastrophe etc etc - I'm not sure it's a unique Orbanist achievement :hmm:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7-RbTWXEAQPui-?format=png&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E79T5RAXIAIXhum?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on September 07, 2021, 10:53:07 AM
Interestingly glossy magazine now for sale in UK newsagents:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-iWbkOXMAYDFvZ?format=jpg&name=small)

I believe there's also the Hungarian Review. Plenty of money for some Anglo-American writers as well as lots of CEE writers, and a clearly developed distribution network if it's in WH Smiths in train stations :hmm:

It seems to be funded by the Danube Institute - details here:
https://hungarianspectrum.org/tag/batthyany-foundation/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 07, 2021, 12:19:09 PM
What is up with the trees? Is it the Hungarian Conservationist? Or is it showing its support for the NIMBY ways of the Lib Dems?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 07, 2021, 12:20:32 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 06, 2021, 01:07:56 PM
Also despite social conservatives love of Hungary's pro-family policies turning around demographic catastrophe etc etc - I'm not sure it's a unique Orbanist achievement :hmm:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7-RbTWXEAQPui-?format=png&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E79T5RAXIAIXhum?format=jpg&name=small)

Well there is also the fact that Orban's looting the pension plan policies make young people move to other countries. That probably won't turn around a demographic catastrophe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on September 07, 2021, 01:16:26 PM
Our fertility rate is 1.18  :lol: <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: viper37 on September 07, 2021, 05:12:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 16, 2021, 01:29:37 PM
It is scary that the police officer's comment of "there's been this new law" to me indicates that they and probably most people are perfectly obvious of the blatantly obvious, i.e. in which direction that particular law is leading the country. Needless to say even that disgusting law has nothing in it that would prevent people from showcasing bloody rainbow colours. But homosexuals and transgendered people have had a target painted on them and I don't think it's going to get any better anytime soon.

It's far less grim, more like ridiculous in a sad way, I saw this infamous law in action the first time yesterday. A couple of online news sites reported that the daily TV series of RTL Klub, the last remaining independent TV channel (think Coronation Street just in a Hungarian context), is going to feature two ladies kissing in an upcoming episode, thus in effect challenging the law.

Now, because of the new law, these sites had to put their articles behind an "are you 18 or over" confirmation page, because as illustration they used the screenshot from the episode's trailer, i.e a photo of two (fully clothed) women kissing each other on the mouth. :bleeding:

EDIT: here you go, found the pic for you. HIDE YOUR KIDS

(https://media.port.hu/images/001/378/794.png?939229347)

can't have young girls influenced by such obvious gay propaganda, obviously.  <sigh>  such stupidity, sometimes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 06, 2021, 03:37:51 PM
So over the last day - Tamas is this as bad an idea as it seems from here ("could we simply not unite around the candidacy of the wife of the loathed former Prime Minister who was recorded saying 'we have obviously been lying for the last one and a half to two years'?") :bleeding: :(
QuoteAndrás Tóth-Czifra
@NoYardstick
Hungary opposition primary news:

- 2nd meeting bw MZ & Karacsony focuses on program, still no decision on who will withdraw (MZ likelier)
- they wanted to be on the ballots together; this won't be possible
- "Median" poll: Dobrev 37, MZ 33, Karacsony 24


András Tóth-Czifra
@NoYardstick
·
7h
Today:

- second poll (Zavecz) puts Karacsony at 3rd place, suggests Dobrev could beat either him or MZP, even if one of them withdrew.
- Karacsony: "I won't wothdraw"
- MZP: "the numbers show it's not me who should withdraw"

This is starting to slip away from them.

András Tóth-Czifra
@NoYardstick
·
2h
Also today:

- third poll (Republikon) says Karacsony would defeat Dobrev in a 1-to-1 race, but Marki-Zay would not.

Karacsony has been arguing the same over the past week.

Meanwhile taxpayer-funded (but Fidesz-controlled) public broadcaster mocks the whole process.
BREAKING

Karacsony announces, after a week of back&forth, that he & Marki-Zay won't cooperate in the 2nd round (starts on Sunday) and will both be on the ballot. Dobrev, arguably the weakest potential candidate to take on Orban, is now a favorite.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 07, 2021, 05:14:46 AM
These opposition primaries are a very interesting and complex topic.

It's been by far the most complex and successful cooperation between the anti-Orban forces, triggered -ironically- by Orban's further squeeze of the election rules which made it impossible for a fragmented setup of multiple parties running independently to have any hope for catching a majority.

And it's been incredibly refreshing to see political debates, even if they were a bit diluted since the appearance of a united front had to be kept. The state media of course barely covered it, and when it did, only to ridicule it. But for the first time in a decade, the main happenings in politics is not what Orban wants people to talk about.  So in this sense it's great.

The eventual PM candidate of the opposition is tricky indeed. Now that Karacsony (liberal left) and Marki-Zay (something of a Christian Democrat in a good way) failed to make a deal, indeed it is probably going to be Mrs. Gyurcsany (Klara Dobrev) winning the candidacy.

That sure makes it easier for the state propagandists, but I am not sure how much it actually matters. Fidesz' attempt to keep their supporters active and engaged during the period of the opposition primaries was collecting signatures for a nation-wide "petition" to "Stop Gyurcsany, Stop Karacsony!" In this, Karacsony (the biggest rival in primaries to Mrs. Gyurcsany) is painted as a mere sockpuppet for Mr. Gyurcsany. The same way the last big unifying opposition PM candidate (Bajnai) was painted around 2014.

(https://hang.hu/data/articles/131/1310/article-131012/241777333_10161158361644307_9086009143561395674_n.jpg)

So yes, a direct link to the vilified Source of All Evil Gyurcsany is bad, but that "direct link" would be created by state propaganda regardless.


And another question is: does all of this matter? I find it unfathomable that when faced with a defeat, Orban would just stand aside, instead of doctoring the results. He and his gang have certainly made preparations to rule both the political and economic sources of power even if not in government, but I seriously doubt his ego could, at this stage, deal with having to step down as PM.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 08, 2021, 04:40:30 AM
As quite the surprise, second-placed PM candidate Karacsony has just conceded the race to support Marki-Zay.

Marki-Zay is the kind of conservative I would never prefer over a moderate left candidate like Klara Dobrev, but would be content with him being PM. And with his independent and right-leaning credentials, Orban's propagandists will have trouble attacking him. So I hope he will win the primaries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 08, 2021, 05:57:34 AM
Orban's Facebook page reacted to the news with unmasked glee, it seems.

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/p526x296/244786469_411509103680027_1454881946838992984_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=qBqPGBoK4-MAX--gPZk&_nc_ht=scontent.xx&edm=AN6CN6oEAAAA&oh=686ffed0c5e22da95299c04795b722b4&oe=61844E24)

The original pic is Karacsony's ad saying "I'll defeat Orban!" with the red sign added reading "Postponed"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 20, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
https://dailynewshungary.com/hungarian-opposition-politicians-fined-for-millions/

QuoteHungarian opposition politicians fined for millions

The leader of the opposition Democratic Coalition (DK), Ferenc Gyurcsány has had his salary as a lawmaker docked by 2.4 million forints (EUR 6,480), while Tímea Szabó, the co-leader of Párbeszéd, has been fined 9.6 million forints. Speaker of Parliament László Kövér said in a statement on Thursday that Gyurcsány had received several warnings to stop interjecting during a statement made by a government lawmaker, and he had ignored each warning. Meanwhile, he noted that Szabó had raised a banner depicting the symbol of "Fidesz", the ruling party, with the flag of the People's Republic of China above it in a red circle before parliamentary state secretary Csaba Dömötör made his statement

Kövér added that the statement was shouted down and warnings from the speaker were ignored. In a Facebook post reacting to the fine, Szabó vowed not to back down "in the fight for the country's freedom, no matter how hard" Kövér and Prime Minister Viktor Orbán "come down" on her. Szabó noted that her act of protest had been against the ruling parties' approval of the plan to build the Budapest campus of China's Fudan University.

Szabo added that she would not be intimidated by Kövér. "I won't let Orbán leave each and every Hungarian 110,000 forints and every two-child family close to half a million forints in debt with a 450 billion forint loan from China just for the sake of a Chinese university that will deprive young Hungarians outside the capital of housing, charge 2.5 million forints in tuition fees and serve as a hideout for Chinese secret agents," she said. "We won't turn our country over to the Chinese Communist Party," Szabó said. "What's at stake is Hungary's independence."

(https://i.redd.it/m3pjpghx8mu71.jpg)

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 27, 2021, 05:17:52 AM
Interesting thing highlighted by journalists: now that some high-profile East European corruption cases are being made public, in parallel Orban and his press are starting to talk about Biden and "foreign networks" preparing to target Hungary. which kind of indicates they are proactively preparing for some dirt to be aired about them as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 11, 2021, 08:09:31 AM
To "prevent higher inflation" non-premium fuel prices will get a ceiling in Hungary. It is not announced how exactly this will be enacted, the only option ruled out so far is decreasing the tax burden on fuel.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/84696348.jpg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2022, 05:22:54 AM
The country has been gearing up for elections in April.

A few days ago, in addition to the fuel price ceiling, price of 7 specific basic foodstuffs have been capped at their 15th October 2021 level. Just like in the case of fuel, shops who have been selling these items are forbidden to remove them from their offering at threat of severe fines.

In case of fuel it seemed easier to see why Orban liked the idea - they forbidden petrol stations from closing their fuel court while keeping their stores open, meaning a near-death sentence for the remaining independent stations. The big national oil company, MOL, kindly stepped in soon after the legislation to indicate that they are happy to take over those stations struggling. Needless to say MOL has tight oligarchic links to Orban.

But with this Venezuela style move on food? The poorest will be happy as they have started to struggle with prices (allegedly there has been 30% inflation on lots of food items last year) but it will be hard to pretend there are no economic problems when you are doing this.

Oh, and things are going as usual on the ideological front as well, with Orban today on his regular weekly radio "interview" discussing how there are "indications being debated" that homosexuality can directly lead to pedophilia.


Meanwhile, parts of the opposition, in true leftist fashion, fight hard to prevent the existing good taking the place of the theoretical-only perfect. The centre-right PM candidate elected with very clear majority during the joined primaries seem to have few fans in supposedly independent press remaining. There is such focus on his perceived blunders and a near-total ignoring of his policy remarks which sometimes could make even pro-government propagandists blush.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 17, 2022, 06:21:56 AM
Orban and campaign staff did a "one of the common people" video of Orban attending a village pig slaughter with an MP candidate of his. He does these regularly, it is kind of striking how he really does feel in his element on these, he very clearly enjoys the processing work the banter and the home made palinka (fruit brandy). That the "one of us" narrative works with the rural poor for him surprises me far less as a result than somebody with Trump. I just wish he stayed with being a village farmer.

An interesting element is how his campaign people lean in on meme elements. The video's title can be translated as "Goodbye Piggy!" - years ago Orban did a campaign video where he was visiting an elderly village lady, who kept pigs and he greeted those with "Hello, piggy!" - which has become a meme since.

I find this somewhat symbolic of how their politics operate. Very old and increasingly fringe/outdated messages delivered adjusted to social media. If you are so inclined, you can watch the God King of Hungary dressed for winter morning village work here: https://www.facebook.com/orbanviktor/videos/675226623846472/

Speaking of symbolic:

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/s600x600/271765461_471632984330155_2108406271707768413_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=__9-dIs0xLsAX-uCTxj&_nc_ht=scontent.xx&edm=AN6CN6oEAAAA&oh=00_AT9RcZD2jIbdgLqcoUZ3loeJseAPEq4msIe6f7FQPmWnIA&oe=61EA4421)

This is a recent photo of the Justice Minister (and next President as recently revealed) happily shopping for the just price-frozen cheap meat products. Pointing them out while revealing her luxury watch worth more than all her declared savings, with the folk art decorated mask to turn the pic from great to perfect in describing Hungary of today.


EDIT: I have realised that not only the pic doesn't work, but the Justice Minister ISN'T the next President, it's her doppleganger Family Affairs minister who have been earmarked for that. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 29, 2022, 01:16:40 PM
In a minor but smart political move, the united opposition parties will be submitting a proposed change to the constitution to make it impossible for the country to leave the EU or NATO without a national referendum. Orban (I refuse to talk about "Fidesz" - there is no party anymore, just a collection of people doing Orban's bidding) will almost certainly not let an opposition initiative succeed, so the opposition can show further proof that Orban is looking to align the country eastward.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on January 29, 2022, 01:53:10 PM
Is leaving the EU something Orban wants to do?
The usual talk is more Hungary being kicked out due to his shit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 29, 2022, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 29, 2022, 01:53:10 PM
Is leaving the EU something Orban wants to do?
The usual talk is more Hungary being kicked out due to his shit.

Officially no, but once the incoming money dries up he might.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on January 29, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
How long has orban been in power? I guess term limits aren't a thing in Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on January 29, 2022, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 29, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
How long has orban been in power? I guess term limits aren't a thing in Hungary?

Are there any parliamentary-style democracies with term limits?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 29, 2022, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 29, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
How long has orban been in power? I guess term limits aren't a thing in Hungary?

He is (for now anyways) a regular Prime Minister. He can remain a PM as long as the rigged election system the people want him to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on January 29, 2022, 03:23:49 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 29, 2022, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 29, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
How long has orban been in power? I guess term limits aren't a thing in Hungary?

Are there any parliamentary-style democracies with term limits?  :huh:

That's a very good point and I feel dumb now lol
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 29, 2022, 03:25:09 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 29, 2022, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 29, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
How long has orban been in power? I guess term limits aren't a thing in Hungary?

Are there any parliamentary-style democracies with term limits?  :huh:

In Germany and Austria presidents are limited to two terms. Of course their role is mostly ceremonial.

Though over the last years we can count ourselves lucky that van der Bellen narrowly won in Austria over FPÖ candidate Hofer who had gone into the campaign heavily implying he would use any tools at his disposal for his party's political gain; technically the President is neutral and is supposed to be above party affiliations. Hofer had been countering against this, and when pointing out how relatively few powers the president has, he replied, "You will surprised about what all will be possible."  :ph34r:

Better not to think about how things might have gone differently in the wake of Ibiza and later with the ÖVP corruption affairs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 29, 2022, 03:26:52 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 29, 2022, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 29, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
How long has orban been in power? I guess term limits aren't a thing in Hungary?

Are there any parliamentary-style democracies with term limits?  :huh:
Not that I'm aware of - maybe some places have term limits on legislators which could have that effect?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on January 29, 2022, 05:16:36 PM
Orbán has been in Spain today, in an European populist right cult meeting event. The main topic was the Russian situation, which Orbán tried to avoid when asked.

Anyway, they all signed a document that essentially says that the best way to face threats like Russia (the document does mention them) is to dismantle EU foreign policy and have each state look for its own interests. Sure, that will do the trick.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 29, 2022, 05:55:32 PM
Also going to be CPAC in March (the first outside the US I think) with loads of American conservative figures - but I think some of the Euro-far right are invited too. I think Trump is going to go and possibly campaign for Orban too.

It's all rather weird - and striking that it's arguably the most trans-national political movement in Europe/the world.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on January 29, 2022, 06:20:50 PM
Yeah "idiots and grifters leaning into nationalism and social regression and know-nothing deliberate idiocy while taking money from Putin" is the premiere trans-national political movement of the decade.

Just fantastic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 29, 2022, 06:37:03 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 29, 2022, 06:20:50 PM
Yeah "idiots and grifters leaning into nationalism and social regression and know-nothing deliberate idiocy while taking money from Putin" is the premiere trans-national political movement of the decade.

Just fantastic.
I think there's still a little bit of a taboo on campaigning or even too vocally supporting someone from their political "family" just in case they lose. Arguably it's an important next step in the development of a European politics - I remember talk of Merkel and Sarko campaigning together but I don't think it ever happened. I wouldn't be surprised if Macron breaks the taboo in his second term by campaigning with parties aligned with his group.

If you're outside the mainstream traditions it's relatively easy - whether on the far-right or left. The right just seems to talk to each other more and try to learn lessons from each other more - there's more structure. But then, money helps. Varoufakis will campaign anywhere in Europe - I think Melenchon and Corbyn did events with each other and I feel he did something with Podemos too, much to the annoyance of people in Labour who pointed out that their sister parties were the PS and PSOE :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on January 29, 2022, 07:43:14 PM
I don't think that Corbyn ever did anything with Podemos. Podemos did lots of stuff with Syriza and Tsipras, though, and for a long time it was their main referent.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 29, 2022, 07:49:57 PM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2022, 07:43:14 PM
I don't think that Corbyn ever did anything with Podemos. Podemos did lots of stuff with Syriza and Tsipras, though, and for a long time it was their main referent.
No you're right - Corbyn was endorsed by Iglesias in his leadership campaign but I don't think they ever did anything together (but he did with Varoufakis, Die Linke and Melenchon).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on January 29, 2022, 07:52:32 PM
Well, I really doubt that Iglesias tweeting something in Corbyn's support did anything for European politics at large.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 29, 2022, 08:12:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2022, 07:52:32 PM
Well, I really doubt that Iglesias tweeting something in Corbyn's support did anything for European politics at large.  :P
I don't think it does, but I don't Salvini and Abascal and Orban doing joint events does either. I think it's more a sign of something than a cause.

Although Corbyn made stuff of it - it was a leadership election of people on the left who are interested enough in politics to join a political party, so support from people like Varoufakis and Iglesias registers with that electorate.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2022, 04:42:33 AM
I guess Hungary just had a landmark court ruling in a case. Or at least, I cannot remember a previous instance where the judge in his explanation of their verdict (don't know the legal term, sorry) quoted a an interview statement from Orban as one of the justifications.

The case was about a story book for children published by a lesbian NGO I never heard of previously. It is a book containing stories intended for small children covering topics of diversity, acceptance, domestic abuse. When it got published (in 2020 I think) it immediately became a far-right target. This particular lawsuit was about one of the pro-government newspapers (to be fair there is maybe one which isn't pro-government at this stage) labelling the book as pedophile propaganda and the NGO as a pedophile organisation. The NGO sued them and on the first trial the newspaper was ordered to pay damages but on the next level where the case was sent to, the judge destroyed that verdict, and essentially agreed with the newspaper.

One of the reasons he cited for the decision was that Orban said (in a radio interview not long ago) that there are possible connections between homosexuality and pedophilia.


:wacko:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 16, 2022, 07:20:17 AM
So the price gap on car fuel is working out well. Not.

Over a 100 independent gas stations are known to have closed down over it (they are banned from keeping just their shop open with the forecourt closed), in some more remote parts of the country people are without gas stations within reasonable distances.

But the government is on top of it and declared that if they have to, they will force necessary gas stations to remain open. They have also extended the price gap period to May, putting the end of it in safe distance of the April elections.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 15, 2022, 04:35:45 PM
Er....Tamas. I know there's an election in Hungary in a couple of weeks.

Via someone online - is there any reason that there's been no opinion polls in the last three weeks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election

Because it feels like some things have been happening in and around Hungary since 26 February that seem important and maybe relevant to an election :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 15, 2022, 04:38:25 PM
How suborned is the Hungarian election process? Is Orban guaranteed to win even if most people don't vote for him? Or does the opposition have an actual chance?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2022, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 15, 2022, 04:35:45 PMEr....Tamas. I know there's an election in Hungary in a couple of weeks.

Via someone online - is there any reason that there's been no opinion polls in the last three weeks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election

Because it feels like some things have been happening in and around Hungary since 26 February that seem important and maybe relevant to an election :hmm:

There supposed to be new ones coming today or tomorrow, with data gathered at the start of the month.

The whole war thing is weird. Maybe other regional countries also have significant swathes of the population in support of appeasing Russia it's just that they are peer-pressured into silence, but in Hungary they are happily out in the open, as that's the strongly implied position of the government as well. Despicable. I am curious to see the numbers on it in reliable polls.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2022, 07:44:34 AM
Quote from: Jacob on March 15, 2022, 04:38:25 PMHow suborned is the Hungarian election process? Is Orban guaranteed to win even if most people don't vote for him? Or does the opposition have an actual chance?

Impossible to tell. To be fair I don't think Orban will need to do any classical rigging - he has absolute control over all aspects of power and media, including the private sector as well, allowing very minimal presence and publicity to the opposition, and the election law is setup to heavily subsidise and benefit big parties like Fidesz.

But, the war and the inflational pressures which were already high prior to it present the worst environment Orban ever fought an election in. He might be forced to cheat his way to victory in an even blunter way than the above. I just cannot see him stepping down and giving up.

The best case scenario for an opposition win is that he does accept defeat, and his oligarchs and leaders of the public administration proceed to disable and ruin the country to engineer his return.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 16, 2022, 07:50:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 16, 2022, 07:38:37 AMThe whole war thing is weird. Maybe other regional countries also have significant swathes of the population in support of appeasing Russia it's just that they are peer-pressured into silence, but in Hungary they are happily out in the open, as that's the strongly implied position of the government as well. Despicable. I am curious to see the numbers on it in reliable polls.
From what I've read it feels like he's playing a bad hand well with the Putin association. So it seems like the opposition are trying to position this as a "Putin or Europe" election, while Orban's basically arguing that because he's friendly with Putin and in Europe, Hungary is uniquely placed to be a force for peace and his pitch is basically "peace and neutrality" (which rather ignores that Hungary is a NATO state - so not neutral). But it feels like that's probably the best argument Orban can make?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2022, 08:04:00 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 16, 2022, 07:50:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 16, 2022, 07:38:37 AMThe whole war thing is weird. Maybe other regional countries also have significant swathes of the population in support of appeasing Russia it's just that they are peer-pressured into silence, but in Hungary they are happily out in the open, as that's the strongly implied position of the government as well. Despicable. I am curious to see the numbers on it in reliable polls.
From what I've read it feels like he's playing a bad hand well with the Putin association. So it seems like the opposition are trying to position this as a "Putin or Europe" election, while Orban's basically arguing that because he's friendly with Putin and in Europe, Hungary is uniquely placed to be a force for peace and his pitch is basically "peace and neutrality" (which rather ignores that Hungary is a NATO state - so not neutral). But it feels like that's probably the best argument Orban can make?

Probably yes except the opposition don't seem to be as loud on this as I'd like, probably cowered by Orban's attempts to paint them as aggressively trying to push us into war (based entirely on a single out of context misconstructed quote from the opposition's PM candidate).

It's a weird and disgusting situation in there. The government is acting like they never were friendly with Russia except making pragmatic business deals, while their  media -quite possibly under more direct Russian influence than even Orban would prefer- continue to run a thinly sanitised Russian narrative on  the war.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 24, 2022, 04:16:28 AM
this thing of putting a cap on fuel prices I reported a couple of months ago has quickly become a textbook example of why such measures are terrible, hastened by the runaway oil prices. So far, it has played out like this, I'd imagine in less extraordinary times this would have taken years instead of months:

1. Government: From now on max price of petrol or diesel is 480 Forints per litre! (1.3 Euros at the moment)

2. Small independent petrol stations: we cannot sustain that, we'll just close our forecourts and just leave the shop open

3. Government: From now on you are forbidden to keep the shop open if the forecourt is closed. Big Oil Company: we are happy to buy struggling independents, no worries people. Struggling independents: no sale, thank you

4. Oil price skyrockets, 1.3 per litre, stations now need to pay more than they can sell for. Government: from now on wholesalers must also keep to the price cap!

5. Fuel in Hungary is now cheaper than anywhere around the country, there is fuel tourism across the borders, and lorries going cross-country time their refuels so it happens in Hungary, putting ever more pressure on struggling petrol stations. Government: from now on, price cap is only valid for Hungarian non-lorries. Petrol stations: and how on Earth are we supposed to enforce this? Government:...

6. Slowly but steadily there's a trickle of independent stations closing down (and a few big ones along motorways), making access to fuel difficult in more remote areas. Government: that's ok, Big Oil Company will temporarily take over these. Big Oil Company: uhm, no, we won't, thanks for the suggestion though

7. A UK-style fuel panic causes even bigger shortages for a while but it calms down, still the trickle of closing stations continue. Government: ok fine we are paying a bit of support to stations from taxpayers' money, so they can survive longer. IF they don't lay off any of their staff

And this is where we are as of today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2022, 04:07:39 PM
It's been revealed (originally be Serbian press I think) that the Hungarian national election mail ballots for voters in Serbia have not been delivered to voters (Hungarian nationals in Serbia) by the postal service but by volunteers of a so called NGO - an organisation with extremely close ties to the local pro-Fidesz organisation. Several Hungarians there told that these people -since 2018- identified as postmen when delivering these, and some people claimed the activists helped fill out the voting sheets.


EDIT: it seems these so called activists had list of voting-eligible people they visited and in several reported occasions were quite insisting in personally helping fill out the ballots for people in the households they delivered to. The Serbian Post apparently has a contract with the "NGO" to have them deliver these.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Malthus on March 25, 2022, 04:43:08 PM
Apparently, Zelenskyy delivered a 'shit or get off the pot' speech to Orban.

How is that playing out domestically in Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2022, 05:02:42 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2022, 04:43:08 PMApparently, Zelenskyy delivered a 'shit or get off the pot' speech to Orban.

How is that playing out domestically in Hungary?

It was the big political news of yesterday of course, but I doubt it did more than entrench existing positions. People like me who, frankly, better understand the moral and practical implications of the Russian invasion are even more angry and embarrassed about Hungary's position. Those who have agreed with Orban's line on staying neutral lest we face (Russian) retaliation or economic inconvenience because of something we don't care about, I guess they find their opinion re-affirmed by Zelensky's effort to urge Hungary into action.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2022, 06:49:26 AM
Having said that, the pro-Orban talking heads can't ignore the slight on their master and have been busy denouncing Zelensky in various ways.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: crazy canuck on March 26, 2022, 09:10:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2022, 04:43:08 PMApparently, Zelenskyy delivered a 'shit or get off the pot' speech to Orban.

How is that playing out domestically in Hungary?

You should watch it. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2022, 11:18:26 AM
Couple of pics of some local papers to get a glimpse of the country:

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7jHrNMoVTYtGX2Oms.jpeg?format=auto&width=347)

"Zelensky's latest attack is on us" They also explain Orban "sternly refused the aggressive demands". Of course what Orban did with "aggressive demands" was to strike a tone of sympathetic understanding while disagreeing.

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7jHkfTmSJSBSX2Oms.jpeg?format=auto&width=347)

This another local paper, the page where the local election candidates were to introduce themselves. Except the opposition's candidate there apparently used the chance to write a criticism of the (heavily pro-government) local council paper and local politics, so the paper claimed he only sent a photo and people should go to his Facebook page if they want to learn more.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on March 28, 2022, 05:25:47 AM
Similar tactics to those used in the UK with the local papers.
Does Hungary have something like the metro free paper there? That's quite a persistent cheerleader for dodginess.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2022, 05:28:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on March 28, 2022, 05:25:47 AMSimilar tactics to those used in the UK with the local papers.
Does Hungary have something like the metro free paper there? That's quite a persistent cheerleader for dodginess.

In Budapest yes, it's very direct and crass state propaganda disguised as cheeky tabloid.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2022, 03:16:10 AM
One of the last remaining investigative journalist sites got their hands on some internal communication from the Foreign Ministry, revealing that by mid-2021 it got obvious that there was a widespread and excessive hacking of the ministry's computers. The internal document stipulates that it was likely a Russian hack, as their systems have been under constant Russian probing and attacks for the last decade. The article claims that the damage was so extensive, it is entirely conceivable some vulnerabilities remain to this day and the Russians might still have access to parts of the Ministry's systems.

This is made especially juicy/humiliating as it was on 30 December 2021 that Lavrov pinned a medal on the Hungarian Foreign Minister's chest to signify the closeness of the two countries. Meaning that muppet knew he was being humiliated but stood there with a grin. Humiliating for the whole nation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2022, 03:21:59 AM
More importantly, however, the article claims there are strong indications, according to security sources, that there has been a conscious effort since 2014 to downgrade and de-fund cyber security in government institutions
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2022, 05:00:53 AM
So the latest attack by the governing party on the united opposition in the election campaign (elections this Sunday), is that they claim they are closely coordinating with... Zelensky.  :huh:

On influencing the Hungarian elections (must be a top priority for Zelensky right now), so that the opposition once having won could "immediately begin weapon shipments for Ukraine" (teh horror) and immediately "support embargo on oil and gas shipments from Russia to Ukraine".

i.e. Fidesz considers the accusation of a strong pro-Ukrainian stance a smear on the opposition. Tells you all, really.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 31, 2022, 07:06:56 AM
Another cross-border mail voting scandal which will have no consequence: on a field in Romania, among a big pile of ash and rubble, a bunch of only partially burned filled-out ballot papers of the Hungarian election have been discovered, with their envelopes, 35-50 of them which apparently were not destroyed by the fire. Incidentally, they all seem to be non-Fidesz votes. The Romanian police is investigating.

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7jP7weSZU0Hgmm132s-xl.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 31, 2022, 07:17:09 AM
I'm intrigued by the professional dog
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 31, 2022, 07:22:02 AM
Quote from: HVC on March 31, 2022, 07:17:09 AMI'm intrigued by the professional dog

It's the joke/parody party which over the last 8 years or so has morphed into an organisation which uses the state grants received for their 1-2% election results to sponsor charity initiatives and such. It's not their intention but it works great for Fidesz as it reduces the votes going to viable opposition candidates
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 03, 2022, 02:47:33 PM
Almost 50% of votes counted, the election so far seems an absolute disaster for pro-democracy forces.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 03, 2022, 04:43:43 PM
Seems to be this is going to be the biggest ever success of Fidesz in terms of most seats of Parliament gained.

The only silver lining I can see in this is that the opposition do not have anything to blame: not the 1-2 parties who remained outside of the opposition alliance, not cheating - overwhelming and unseen in the West media dominance of Orban still is to blame of course, but the facts remain: seemingly 20% more voters want Fidesz than the opposition.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 03, 2022, 08:20:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2022, 05:00:53 AMSo the latest attack by the governing party on the united opposition in the election campaign (elections this Sunday), is that they claim they are closely coordinating with... Zelensky.  :huh:

On influencing the Hungarian elections (must be a top priority for Zelensky right now), so that the opposition once having won could "immediately begin weapon shipments for Ukraine" (teh horror) and immediately "support embargo on oil and gas shipments from Russia to Ukraine".

i.e. Fidesz considers the accusation of a strong pro-Ukrainian stance a smear on the opposition. Tells you all, really.
Maybe when Soros dies Zelensky can be elevate to the status of "arch-Jew" in Hungarian politics.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 04, 2022, 01:26:45 AM
Do you get to vote in these elections Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 02:33:02 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 04, 2022, 01:26:45 AMDo you get to vote in these elections Tamas?


Yes if I wanted to, I could have registered to vote at the London embassy but I didn't, I was skeptical about what would happen to my vote, seeing the news about the mail-in ballots from Serbia and Romania, possibly with good reason.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 02:42:59 AM
In the Hungarian election system you  have a national list you vote on which hands out part of the seats, and then you also vote on your district's MP individually.

On the list, the opposition alliance received 1 million fewer votes than they did when running non-allied in 2018.  :huh:

But, the official far-right (Fidesz is far-right in rhetoric and actions, but still like to pretend they are non-radicals) is back to Parliament! You might recall that following Fidesz' push to the right edge of the spectrum Jobbik, the previous tenant of that space chose to mellow out and try to take the emptying right-of-center. Turns out like in America, there's no such thing anymore. Breakaway nazis from Jobbik created a party with rather obvious Fidesz help (called Mi Hazank - Our Homeland). They ran on their own (with limited backing from Orbanist media) and have achieved around 6% of the votes and thus will have a few MPs, enough to create their own official faction in Parliament.

So I think in a way what happened was that -again like in America- there's no appetite for a moderate Right. (The opposition alliance's PM-candidate was also running on the platform of him being moderate right, and we can see the result). Those who like to pretend they are moderate would rather still vote for Orban thankyouverymuch, and for those whom Orban is still too timid, they didn't hesitate to replace traitor Jobbik with Mi Hazank.

As I wrote last night: the only good thing about this, is that it shows a clear picture: it may be because of vicious and overwhelming propaganda, but a clear majority of Hungarians want Orban, and content with him and what he is doing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2022, 02:48:06 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 02:33:02 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 04, 2022, 01:26:45 AMDo you get to vote in these elections Tamas?


Yes if I wanted to, I could have registered to vote at the London embassy but I didn't, I was skeptical about what would happen to my vote, seeing the news about the mail-in ballots from Serbia and Romania, possibly with good reason.
.
You mean any postal vote will be dumped and just given to Orban?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 03:09:31 AM
Quote from: Josquius on April 04, 2022, 02:48:06 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 02:33:02 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 04, 2022, 01:26:45 AMDo you get to vote in these elections Tamas?


Yes if I wanted to, I could have registered to vote at the London embassy but I didn't, I was skeptical about what would happen to my vote, seeing the news about the mail-in ballots from Serbia and Romania, possibly with good reason.
.
You mean any postal vote will be dumped and just given to Orban?

Pretty much.

There is strong evidence of postal ballots handled directly by pro-Orban civilians (ethnic Hungarians) in Serbia, and there was an incident (see above) of some opposition-voting ballots being burned in Romania. The latter is unclear of whether a true thing or an elaborate provocation, but the Hungarian election regulator declared they cannot take responsibility for votes happening outside Hungary's borders (  :huh: ).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 04:19:39 AM
Things to highlight in Orban's victory speech last night: no mention of the (almost) half of the country who didn't vote on him, but rather gloating about having defeated Brussels, Soros, and Zelensky.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 04:57:56 AM
Zelensky?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:04:00 AM
In related Central European autocratic news, Serbia also reelected their President for another term this weekend.

QuoteSerbia president Aleksandar Vučić claims election victory to secure second term
Preliminary results show Vučić on 59.5% of vote after campaign that promised stability
(...)
Vučić had secured 59.5% of the vote with 87.67% of ballots counted, the commission said. The opposition candidate Zdravko Ponoš, a retired army general, was on 17.5%..

Parlamentary elections were also held, and Vucic's party had similarly auspicious results:

QuoteThe commission said Vučić's ruling Serbian Progressive party (SNS) won 43.4% of votes in the parliamentary election, with Ponoš's United for Victory alliance on 13.1% and the Socialist party of Serbia, a longtime SNS coalition partner, third with 11.7%.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:21:36 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 04:57:56 AMZelensky?  :huh:

If you remember Zelensky called out Orban like a week ago to make up his mind and take a side in the war. The pro-Orban press took grave insult and started the narrative of Zelensky being in direct contact with the opposition to achieve their victory so Hungary could enter the war on Ukraine's side. A ridiculously blatant lie of course, but these sorts of fearmongering blatant lies have kept him in power for 12 years now, and it seemed it worked again.

Based on this note by Orban last night I think he genuinely got pissed at Zelensky for endangering his re-election chances by calling him out. Very unlikely that he is going to change his tune regarding the war.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 05:35:47 AM
Which presents a problem for the next round of sanctions etc. I wonder if Orban felt a little more constrained pre-election, but will now be liberated to cause more issues/act as a block?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on April 04, 2022, 05:38:02 AM
How is a pro Russian state part of nato? Is there no saner rattling that can be done there?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:38:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 05:35:47 AMWhich presents a problem for the next round of sanctions etc. I wonder if Orban felt a little more constrained pre-election, but will now be liberated to cause more issues/act as a block?

The hope of some (like Poland's) was that post-election he'd be free to take an anti-Putin stance. I am afraid he is now free to make a more free pro-Putin stance, yes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:40:07 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 04, 2022, 05:38:02 AMHow is a pro Russian state part of nato? Is there no saner rattling that can be done there?

Orban has had to be under big pressure behind the scenes as Hungary has been quietly voting yes on everything NATO and EU have done so far.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AM
It's a nice rigging of the system he's achieved, btw, when he can get 54% of votes and win 2/3 of parliament seats, giving him (again) the power to change the constitution if he feels like it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:54:42 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AMIt's a nice rigging of the system he's achieved, btw, when he can get 54% of votes and win 2/3 of parliament seats, giving him (again) the power to change the constitution if he feels like it.

Indeed. My favourite person at the opposition's side (Akos Hadhazy, who has done TONS of investigative work and was among the MPs literally thrown out of the state TV building a couple of years ago), repeated his often-repeated point this morning: opposition MPs should not assist to the false theatre of democracy. They should demand restoration of democratic parliamentary practices, like meaningful opposition control over committees (most notably the one overseeing state media). If denied, they should not take up their seats and salaries.

He is right, it's the right thing to do, but just like in the Labour party in the UK, I believe a lot of opposition politicians are quite content with being His Majest's Permanent Opposition, taking up their salaries and grants while sitting around and waiting for the winds of history perhaps landing power in their laps.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:54:57 AM
I wonder if, taking into account how no-nonsense the EU is becoming (at the very least compared to its past behaviour), should Orban take a blatantly pro-Putin attitude, could it not result in Hungary finally getting kicked out of the EU? Or NATO at the very least?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AMIt's a nice rigging of the system he's achieved, btw, when he can get 54% of votes and win 2/3 of parliament seats, giving him (again) the power to change the constitution if he feels like it.

IIRC The Economist ran an article recently denouncing the Hungarian electoral system as extremely gerrymandered in favour of Fidesz, making it extremely difficult for the opposition to present a realistic challenge to Orban's rule.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:54:57 AMI wonder if, taking into account how no-nonsense the EU is becoming (at the very least compared to its past behaviour), should Orban take a blatantly pro-Putin attitude, could it not result in Hungary finally getting kicked out of the EU? Or NATO at the very least?

Short answer is no, I think. As long as Orban continues to moderate himself from an EU point of view, the German carmakers will not want the extra administrative burden of their supply chains going through a non-EU border.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:58:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:54:57 AMI wonder if, taking into account how no-nonsense the EU is becoming (at the very least compared to its past behaviour), should Orban take a blatantly pro-Putin attitude, could it not result in Hungary finally getting kicked out of the EU? Or NATO at the very least?

Short answer is no, I think. As long as Orban continues to moderate himself from an EU point of view, the German carmakers will not want the extra administrative burden of their supply chains going through a non-EU border.

It surprises me that you of all people use a pro-Brexit argument (the mythical German car-makers as the ultimate decision makers in the EU).  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on April 04, 2022, 06:05:23 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AMIt's a nice rigging of the system he's achieved, btw, when he can get 54% of votes and win 2/3 of parliament seats, giving him (again) the power to change the constitution if he feels like it.

IIRC The Economist ran an article recently denouncing the Hungarian electoral system as extremely gerrymandered in favour of Fidesz, making it extremely difficult for the opposition to present a realistic challenge to Orban's rule.

Maybe but Fidesz got an absolute majority of the votes cast. You can't blame gerrymandering for them winning.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 06:06:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:58:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 05:54:57 AMI wonder if, taking into account how no-nonsense the EU is becoming (at the very least compared to its past behaviour), should Orban take a blatantly pro-Putin attitude, could it not result in Hungary finally getting kicked out of the EU? Or NATO at the very least?

Short answer is no, I think. As long as Orban continues to moderate himself from an EU point of view, the German carmakers will not want the extra administrative burden of their supply chains going through a non-EU border.

It surprises me that you of all people use a pro-Brexit argument (the mythical German car-makers as the ultimate decision makers in the EU).  :P

The pro-Brexit argument was around the silly notion that German carmakers would not want Brits to be paying a few percentage more for their cars due to British tariffs.

Hungary's economy seems entirely dependent on German carmakers, however. It would be challenging to find a family where nobody is working in a part of that supply chain. I may be overvaluing Hungary's value to German industrialists because of this. But I think it must be a pro-putting-up-with-Orban balance against kicking him out together with the country.

More importantly, on second thought, is what would happen once Hungary is kicked out: it immediately fully entering the Russian economic and political orbit. I don't think that's an acceptable outcome for the EU, not while Orban continues to be an embarrassment but keeps stopping short of blocking really important things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 06:10:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:54:42 AMIndeed. My favourite person at the opposition's side (Akos Hadhazy, who has done TONS of investigative work and was among the MPs literally thrown out of the state TV building a couple of years ago), repeated his often-repeated point this morning: opposition MPs should not assist to the false theatre of democracy. They should demand restoration of democratic parliamentary practices, like meaningful opposition control over committees (most notably the one overseeing state media). If denied, they should not take up their seats and salaries.
Maybe - I'm not sure about the right approach on opposition parties boycotting the electoral process/system. I think it's had a pretty mixed impact - I think in Venezuela especially the opposition has gone back and forth on this.

QuoteIt surprises me that you of all people use a pro-Brexit argument (the mythical German car-makers as the ultimate decision makers in the EU).  :P
It wasn't true for Brexit - but I don't think it's entirely untrue everywhere. Certainly not with the approach of Germany's governments under Merkel to Hungary, or China for that matter.

From everything I've read Germany under Merkel was very reluctant to come down on Orban for many years and even within the EPP it was the CDU/CSU (and especially the CSU) that didn't want to punish Fidesz. The reporting certainly here in the Guardian and elsewhere basically called out Merkel as Orban's protector within the EU. It feels like that is at least partly driven by economic considerations as well as a desire not to rock the boat/push things into a confrontation when they can be left to drift. I think - as with tolerance for autocracy within the EU and on Russia and China policy - the new Germany government will be far, far better.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 06:19:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 02:42:59 AMBut, the official far-right (Fidesz is far-right in rhetoric and actions, but still like to pretend they are non-radicals) is back to Parliament! You might recall that following Fidesz' push to the right edge of the spectrum Jobbik, the previous tenant of that space chose to mellow out and try to take the emptying right-of-center. Turns out like in America, there's no such thing anymore. Breakaway nazis from Jobbik created a party with rather obvious Fidesz help (called Mi Hazank - Our Homeland). They ran on their own (with limited backing from Orbanist media) and have achieved around 6% of the votes and thus will have a few MPs, enough to create their own official faction in Parliament.
It's a big trend in Europe at the minute to now see the emergence of multiple far-right candidates/parties. Optimistically it's a fracturing of the far-right, pessimistically (and I think probably correctly) it's a sign of their growing strength.

Obviously in France you've had Zemmouor and Le Pen, in Italy there's Fratelli d'Italia (which is literally descended from Mussolini's fascists) as well as Lega, in the Netherlands there's FvD as well as PVV. They don't generally seem to split the vote enough for it to be a net loss instead they seem to reach slightly different constituencies and end up net increasing the vote of the far-right.

Separately I think Orban may have solved the problem of how to deal with past associations with Putin: pitch yourself as the peace candidate v war-mongers. So there were anti-war, but pro-Ukrainian protests which Orban's press and party framed as "pro-war" because they want Hungary to get more involved. It'll be interesting to see if that gets picked up elsewhere.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 06:31:47 AM
QuoteSeparately I think Orban may have solved the problem of how to deal with past associations with Putin: pitch yourself as the peace candidate v war-mongers. So there were anti-war, but pro-Ukrainian protests which Orban's press and party framed as "pro-war" because they want Hungary to get more involved. It'll be interesting to see if that gets picked up elsewhere.

Yes. With tremendous media support to create this narrative, but the morally despicable stance of "choosing between cheap heating/fuel or having our sons killed in a war" managed to avoid the trap posed by Putin's war for Orban.

This relates to the very bad picture Orban's career paints of Hungarian society I was thinking about: although as the years of Orban's autocracy keep going this will be less and less true, but I think it has society which shaped Orban and not the other way around.

That's because Orban has no morals or true political views (or rather, if he does, nobody can tell which those are). He started out as a young liberal - Fidesz struggled to remain relevant. He then became a sort of classical conservative. This was liked much better and landed him the government. The far-right continued to be a rising challenge though, so he morphed himself into their image, an image which has been his most successful.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 06:44:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 06:31:47 AMThat's because Orban has no morals or true political views (or rather, if he does, nobody can tell which those are). He started out as a young liberal - Fidesz struggled to remain relevant. He then became a sort of classical conservative. This was liked much better and landed him the government. The far-right continued to be a rising challenge though, so he morphed himself into their image, an image which has been his most successful.
To be slighty provocative and play devil's advocate here - this is mentioned in The Light That Failed - is there an argument that he basically hasn't changed? That Orban was a classical liberal, within the European context slightly centre-right, in 1990 - when Margaret Thatcher, Helmut Kohl, Giulio Andreotti and Pope John Paul II were the leading lights of the European centre-right.

That what's happened since is not so much a shift in Orban or Hungary but a transformation of Western Europe especially on issues such as gay rights/family, immigration, culture and secularisation that has also swept along the centre right. One of the ideas they touch on in that book is that possibly part of the "issue" with Hungary - but also Poland and other CEE countries - is the Europe they yearned to join 1990 doesn't exist anymore and that's one of the faultlines. That that Europe (the Western alternative during the Cold War) is what those countries still broadly support, not the Western Europe that's emerged since?

It's a bit like, on the other side, someone who was a mainstream social democrat in 1990 in most of Europe would now probably be on the fringes of the democratic left.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 06:51:56 AM
I know what you mean but it is not true in Orban's case. It would take a long post, but closely following Hungarian politics from the inside (my first election was 1998's, Orban's first foray from mocking Christian Democrats in Parliament in the style of "kneel for prayer, monks!" to becoming a devout conservative in a span of 4 years), it is clear that in his case this was an amoral shapeshifting to try and find the recipe that works.

Most importantly to disprove your theory - classical liberalism was never strong or significant in Hungary. Orban realised that somewhere between 1994 and 1998.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 07:08:15 AM
That's a bit of a stretch, innit Shelf?  A classical liberal with 1990's attitudes towards gays would not have Orban's disregard for media freedom, or immigration, or the vast international Jewish conspiracy.

Hungary to me fits in the same category as Turkey and Poland (and maybe Serbia).  Even in the absence of rigging the system, a majority would probably vote for authoritarian leaders.  The problem is not the current leaders and their tricks, its the people of these countries.  You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 07:27:49 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 07:08:15 AMThat's a bit of a stretch, innit Shelf?  A classical liberal with 1990's attitudes towards gays would not have Orban's disregard for media freedom, or immigration, or the vast international Jewish conspiracy.
Maybe - I take Tamas' point that it doesn't work for Orban. And I think the way he's built control is different (I also think it's more complete than anywhere else).

I think we underestimate how authoritarian Cold War Western Europe was. But in 1990 Kurt Waldheim was President of Austria. Germany had liberalised especially with Brandt, but Schmidt and Kohl were not exactly hippies. Italy was even more constrained. The UK had Maggie. And it was an era when there weren't multiple news sources (and I think in some countries state media was pretty pro-government though I think that varied a lot) - the media environment was quite narrow, so also the point when Berlusconi, Murdoch etc were probably at the peak of their powers as media moguls (although that might just be an age thing). In addition, obviously, the UK has a very majoritarian system of government. I think in 1990 much of Europe was still pretending that they weren't immigration societies, they just had temporary "guests" as workers or as refugees.

Europe was a more narrow, authoritarian, traditionalist, Christian, conservative (and socialist) society but one that was recognisable to CEE countries from their pre-Soviet history. There was a degree of continuity there. Joining Europe was less of a change and more of a return to the current they were on before their history was interrupted by the war. I think in the gap between 1990 and joining the EU, Western Europe transformed itself from that mid-century Cold War European state to something far more open (for now).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2022, 07:36:19 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 06:10:27 AM
QuoteIt surprises me that you of all people use a pro-Brexit argument (the mythical German car-makers as the ultimate decision makers in the EU).  :P
It wasn't true for Brexit - but I don't think it's entirely untrue everywhere. Certainly not with the approach of Germany's governments under Merkel to Hungary, or China for that matter.

From everything I've read Germany under Merkel was very reluctant to come down on Orban for many years and even within the EPP it was the CDU/CSU (and especially the CSU) that didn't want to punish Fidesz. The reporting certainly here in the Guardian and elsewhere basically called out Merkel as Orban's protector within the EU. It feels like that is at least partly driven by economic considerations as well as a desire not to rock the boat/push things into a confrontation when they can be left to drift. I think - as with tolerance for autocracy within the EU and on Russia and China policy - the new Germany government will be far, far better.

That's true and I think that it's something that, when Merkel's legacy is evaluated with hindsight will bring it down a few pegs. In any case, Merkel is not there anymore to cover up for Orban or Fidesz, and in such a touchy topic as the relations with Russia maybe not even the other Visegrad countries that would normally veto any resolution against Hungary would come up in its defence as usual, so maybe Hungary could deal with severe consequences should it go further in its blocking of pro-Ukraine initiatives.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 08:15:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 07:27:49 AMMaybe - I take Tamas' point that it doesn't work for Orban. And I think the way he's built control is different (I also think it's more complete than anywhere else).

I think we underestimate how authoritarian Cold War Western Europe was. But in 1990 Kurt Waldheim was President of Austria. Germany had liberalised especially with Brandt, but Schmidt and Kohl were not exactly hippies. Italy was even more constrained. The UK had Maggie. And it was an era when there weren't multiple news sources (and I think in some countries state media was pretty pro-government though I think that varied a lot) - the media environment was quite narrow, so also the point when Berlusconi, Murdoch etc were probably at the peak of their powers as media moguls (although that might just be an age thing). In addition, obviously, the UK has a very majoritarian system of government. I think in 1990 much of Europe was still pretending that they weren't immigration societies, they just had temporary "guests" as workers or as refugees.

Europe was a more narrow, authoritarian, traditionalist, Christian, conservative (and socialist) society but one that was recognisable to CEE countries from their pre-Soviet history. There was a degree of continuity there. Joining Europe was less of a change and more of a return to the current they were on before their history was interrupted by the war. I think in the gap between 1990 and joining the EU, Western Europe transformed itself from that mid-century Cold War European state to something far more open (for now).

I think you're conflating stodgy, conservative, and old fashioned with authoritarian.  Waldheim was president of Austria, but that was after his huggy kumbaya tenure at the UN.  Media (especially TV) may have been narrow at that time, but it was certainly not suppressed.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 10:14:05 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 08:15:44 AMI think you're conflating stodgy, conservative, and old fashioned with authoritarian.  Waldheim was president of Austria, but that was after his huggy kumbaya tenure at the UN.  Media (especially TV) may have been narrow at that time, but it was certainly not suppressed.

Was Waldheim's "huggy kumbaya tenure at the UN" pro-immigration and in favour of multi-culturalism and in favour of LGTBQ+ rights? Because I think that's what Sheilbh is referring to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 10:18:40 AM
As for Hungary, the main thing I wonder about is the degree to which they'll be able to and interested in undermining support for Ukraine and the united front against Russia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:11:15 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 10:14:05 AMWas Waldheim's "huggy kumbaya tenure at the UN" pro-immigration and in favour of multi-culturalism and in favour of LGTBQ+ rights? Because I think that's what Sheilbh is referring to.

Well no, he used Waldheim as an example of authoritarianism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:11:15 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 10:14:05 AMWas Waldheim's "huggy kumbaya tenure at the UN" pro-immigration and in favour of multi-culturalism and in favour of LGTBQ+ rights? Because I think that's what Sheilbh is referring to.

Well no, he used Waldheim as an example of authoritarianism.

Which he expands a bit later in the paragraph to "more narrow, authoritarian, traditionalist, Christian, conservative (and socialist) society".

What do you think the point Sheilbh is making is?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 11:21:03 AM
Bad phrasing on my part - I didn't mean to limit it to that. And you're right - but Waldheim also became president after the revelations about his past came out and prompted a fairly nasty campaign in Austria even if he didn't explicitly talk about Soros. This documentary is really good (on Amazon Prime in the UK so maybe in the US too :)) - trailer gives a sense and it's worth a watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGlG0lu50c
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:35:53 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 11:20:46 AMWhat do you think the point Sheilbh is making is?

I thought he was trying to say that the EU was authoritarian in the 90s and Orban the classical liberal was comfortable with that and it is the EU that has evolved away from authoritarianism whereas Orban has stayed the same.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 11:50:39 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:35:53 AMI thought he was trying to say that the EU was authoritarian in the 90s and Orban the classical liberal was comfortable with that and it is the EU that has evolved away from authoritarianism whereas Orban has stayed the same.

I see. We have almost the same interpretation, except I include "socially conservative and ethnically exclusive" as part of what Europe was and isn't anymore, which Orban, his constituency, and those like him are reacting to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:57:18 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 04, 2022, 11:50:39 AMI see. We have almost the same interpretation, except I include "socially conservative and ethnically exclusive" as part of what Europe was and isn't anymore, which Orban, his constituency, and those like him are reacting to.

I agreed with Shelf that attitudes about gays have changed dramatically in that time.  I didn't take exception to that, just the description of Europe as authoritarian.  Maggie Thatcher wasn't authoritarian.  Neither was Kohl.

Unless you're using a definition of authoritarian which is so watered down as to be meaningless, and thus has no relevance to a discussion about Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 12:53:33 PM
I accept Tamas' point that Orban is different - but surely the same point could be made for, say, Duda's Poland?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 04, 2022, 03:23:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 05:57:06 AMShort answer is no, I think. As long as Orban continues to moderate himself from an EU point of view, the German carmakers will not want the extra administrative burden of their supply chains going through a non-EU border.
Where does the idea that German carmakers somehow have this huge influence on German politics, especially foreign politics come from?

Anyway, German carmakers are used to managing global supply chains, inside or outside the single market. Hungary may now have a comparative advantage due to its geographic closeness, for them favorable politics and single market membership. But even without membership  Hungary would likely have some kind of FTA and would have to do even more on the tax and human capital side to stay attractive. German industry is not loyal or sentimental about international investment opportunities.

As also Brexit shows, giant multinationals can easily manage a few more bureaucratic procedures. SMEs cannot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 04, 2022, 03:23:52 PMWhere does the idea that German carmakers somehow have this huge influence on German politics, especially foreign politics come from?

China
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 04, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
 :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 03:53:51 PM
Important export market, Germany not at the forefront of slagging on treatment of Sinkiang and Hong Kong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 03:54:00 PM
I think it comes from trying to figure out why Germany is putting up with all the BS from Orbán.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 04, 2022, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 03:53:51 PMImportant export market, Germany not at the forefront of slagging on treatment of Sinkiang and Hong Kong.
So you think that a hypothetical Germany that is not exporting cars to China would be confronting China on its human rights atrocities?  You have a more positive view of Germany than I do then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2022, 04:26:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pkJvd1LLUk
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 04, 2022, 04:38:53 PM
:(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:08:27 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 04, 2022, 04:23:06 PMSo you think that a hypothetical Germany that is not exporting cars to China would be confronting China on its human rights atrocities?  You have a more positive view of Germany than I do then.


Does Germany not criticize other countries for human rights abuses?  Honest question.  As an American I just assumed everyone yapped about human rights but now that you're saying, it's not something I've really noticed or paid attention to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 04, 2022, 11:51:37 PM
Of course it does. And when in say China, they always make a point to meet with some government critical NGO or so in addition to the Chinese government. But I doubt they would do more of that if it wasn't for the nefarious and far-reaching influence the (automotive) industry holds over our government supposedly.

Germany does domestic policies to support its auto industry. But I fail to see its supposed influence over foreign policy. That e.g. Merkel's passivity (and thus the EU's) over Orban's establishment of an illiberal autocracy was somehow due to the auto industry invested in Hungary as Tamas suggested feels to me like a massive exaggeration of their influence. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 05, 2022, 07:37:18 AM
There's a bit of a feeling among those left of center in Austria, that the country dodged a bulled thanks to Ibiza which was the first step in dismantling Strache and Kurz in politics (for now, at least), since they were keen on heading in similar reactions (FPÖ more so than Kurz, with the latter generally being more subtle). Hard to imagine if they were still in power, the FPÖ during the pandemic, or both during the Ukraine invasion. And considering that despite all the scandals and corruption cases in both parties both parties combined still poll and 40-45% the coast is not quite clear yet, and the next pretenders might be more subtle (though not the current FPÖ led by Kickl who is a pure populist without the natural "charm" of a Strache or Hofer's soft-spoken subtleties).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: viper37 on April 05, 2022, 09:24:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2022, 11:57:18 AMUnless you're using a definition of authoritarian which is so watered down as to be meaningless, and thus has no relevance to a discussion about Orban.

Interestingly, this description comes from people who object to the characterization of other politicians as dictator ;)

Anyway.

Tamas, what do you think of this?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/04/05/hungary-election-viktor-orban-landslide-what-voters-want/

Quote[...]
But it's also true that Orban was reelected because of his combination of market economics, nationalism and social conservatism. This is what a majority of Hungarians want.
The history of Hungarian politics since the fall of communism makes this clear. The country's first free election, in 1990, was won by a nationalist Christian democratic party, the Hungarian Democratic Forum, with about 25 percent. Three other conservative parties, including Fidesz, combined for an additional 27 percent. The nationalist center-right, therefore, had roughly 52 percent support.

That pattern held for the next 20 years, even as the parties themselves evolved. With the exception of the 1994 election, the collection of center-right parties consistently received between 49 and 54 percent of the vote. Orban's Fidesz party, once an urban-based party focused on market economics, grew into a nationalist, big-tent party with a variety of conservative views. By 2006, it was the dominant party among Hungarian conservatives.

Hungarians grew angry with the emergence of a leaked tape in which the prime minister admitted his Hungarian Socialist Party had lied to win the 2006 election, and they shifted massively to the right in the wake of the 2008 economic crisis. Many blamed the ruling Socialists for the collapse. Fidesz won in a massive landslide in 2010, claiming 53 percent of the vote. A nationalist party to its right, Jobbik, also won 17 percent, while the Hungarian Democratic Forum won almost 3 percent. In other words, nearly three-quarters of Hungarians embraced right-wing parties even before Orban had a chance to manipulate election rules.

To understand Fidesz's political dominance, one must understand that Orban's nationalism responds to a long-standing element of Hungarian public opinion. For most of the past decade, his most serious opposition came from Jobbik, not the collection of Budapest-based centrist and center-left parties favored in the West. Jobbik, reviled in the West, grew to about 20 percent of the vote even as Orban shifted his focus to nationalist themes to limit its gains. Jobbik's strength was nearly 30 percent at the height of the European migrant crisis, effectively forcing Orban to adopt his well-known anti-migrant stance.

[...]
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2022, 03:17:13 AM
The Hungarian Foreign Minister summoned Ukraine's ambassador to Hungary, demanding that Ukraine "stop insulting Hungary, and accept the decisions of the Hungarian people".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2022, 03:20:22 AM
And of course this is the same guy who at the end of last year was happily accepting a medal from Lavrov, after being aware for at least 6 months by that time -as it has been revealed as per an earlier post of mine- that his ministry has been hacked wide open by the Russians.

The EU and NATO must deal with the Hungary situation. Orban has turned Hungary into a Russian mole in these organisations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2022, 04:01:14 AM
In related news, the Russian ambassador to Budapest said there is no reason for Russia not to trust Hungary, Hungary's participation in the EU sanctions was "forced by Brussels", so basically no hard feelings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on April 06, 2022, 04:31:51 AM
They could mean it. For all Russias promise of friendship is worth.
Or they could just be trying to sow EU discord.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2022, 04:55:58 AM
More from FM Szijjarto: "what the Ukrainian leaders have done, crosses all boundaries" - as in, they must stop speaking ill of Orban.

Needless to say, what Russia has done in Ukraine received no criticism so far.

This is so embarrassing and infuriating. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on April 06, 2022, 06:09:23 AM
It was a really bad mistake by zelensky to more or less openly campaign against orban in the weeks prior to the election. is there anything more important to a politician than getting reelected? doubly so for a politician that needs to keep power to keep the law away for corruption and who knows what else.

If you take that shot, you better be sure you get the kill.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2022, 06:55:56 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 06, 2022, 06:09:23 AMIt was a really bad mistake by zelensky to more or less openly campaign against orban in the weeks prior to the election. is there anything more important to a politician than getting reelected? doubly so for a politician that needs to keep power to keep the law away for corruption and who knows what else.

If you take that shot, you better be sure you get the kill.

Yeah but actually no. If he made a mistake it was thinking that the Hungarian population would not abide with Orban's stance, so calling him out for being a Russian lapdog would prompt his population to pressure him.

In reality, however, a big enough portion of Hungarians have been made too poor and state-dependent by Orban the last 12 years not to prioritise affordable fuel over not being a despicable coward. And there's a good portion who could take the financial hit (which doesn't exist in the first place as Putin would keep selling as we see with Germany), but doesn't want to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on April 06, 2022, 09:22:07 AM
I think Zelensky was actually smart to go after Orban. There is no realistic scenario where Orban either loses or meaningfully assists Ukraine, as Hungary is controlled by a Putin puppet. Zelensky's goal in going after Hungary, and more broadly EU and NATO leaders who have been inappropriately close or soft on Putin, is to drum up more support among the countries willing to help him. I also think it's largely a net-good for there to be more conflict between Hungary and NATO/EU. Unlike some people I don't necessarily take a "let's paint the map as big as we can" view of NATO. NATO in my mind is largely for countries that are part of the Western order to be protected against conquest by Russia, at its core. The involvement of Turkey in NATO was always an aberration and plain realpolitik, and that's fine. Hungary unlike Turkey I think brings a whole lot less to the NATO table and I don't actually think I'd mind if Hungary just became a Russian vassal state, and in many ways I'd like to see that happen since I believe people who vote for individuals like Orban should bear the consequences of their actions.

I am 100% not against countries becoming Russian vassal states if that is what their people want, if Ukraine had, by majority votes, indicated a desire to be part of Russia's economic area and Russian military alliances, I would not advocate for trying to stop it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 06, 2022, 10:11:44 AM
Agreed. The priority with Hungary should be to minimize the damage it can do to EU and NATO - and the usefulness to Russia as a destabilizer of the same organizations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 03:49:27 AM
This may be just kreminology gone too far, but it seems conceivable Orban is about to probe the public for the idea of Huxit. As in, leaving the EU.


There is a particularly spineless "independent" former MP, who just lost his seat in this election, called Janos Volner.
He used to be in Jobbik, then when they pivoted toward the centre, he took part in the creation of Mi Hazank ("Our Homeland") the true spiritual heir of original Jobbik and a party gently supported by the Fidesz media. But, he left them shortly after they got formed and maintained himself as a so-called independent MP during the previous 4 years.

Well, during his "independent" tenure, he was a stronger Fidesz MP than most actual Fidesz MPs. In particular, he regularly submitted bills which Orban wanted but did not want direct association with. Most notably, a series of minor but important changes to the electoral system which helped cement Fidesz' vast advantage during the election. In other words, he is an agent of Orban.

So, this guy, after predictably faring abysmal during the recent campaign with his "Volner Party" formation, has just formed a new party called: "Huxit", clearly, to focus it on that one topic.

Judging by his parliamentary history, it is not far-fetched to think he was instructed to do this to gauge and perhaps even build support for the idea of leaving the EU. We shall see based on how much government media attention he is getting in the coming months. I could totally see it - a fringe guy getting media attention starting to build his support base can be very beneficial if Orban wants to pick up the idea of Huxit and run with it later. In the meantime, if the Huxit Party gets traction this can be used in negotiations with the EU, and if Orban wants to discard the whole idea, it would be extremely easy (at least I think that's the line of thinking) to shut the whole thing down by making this guy shut up and cutting him from the media.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 10, 2022, 03:53:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 03:49:27 AMThis may be just kreminology gone too far, but it seems conceivable Orban is about to probe the public for the idea of Huxit. As in, leaving the EU.
Great news!  :w00t:

Nah, actually sad, but it would help the EU if Hungary quit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 04:22:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 03:49:27 AMif the Huxit Party gets traction this can be used in negotiations with the EU

How so? In a "stop me or I'll shoot myself" kind of negotiation?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 04:37:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 04:22:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 03:49:27 AMif the Huxit Party gets traction this can be used in negotiations with the EU

How so? In a "stop me or I'll shoot myself" kind of negotiation?

Essentially. :P But until now the EU largely refused to rock the boat over Orban planting a Putinist system into the EU. This may be because for whatever reason, they have judged that having Hungary inside the EU (by, essentially, paying tribute to Orban since the grant money ends up largely in his and his oligarchs' pockets) is better than having them outside of it. It would not be the first time that awkward marriages of convenience are maintained in foreign politics.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 04:46:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 04:37:42 AMBut until now the EU largely refused to rock the boat

Either you vastly underestimate what the EU has done about Hungary so far or overestimate what the EU can do within the current legal framework.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 04:50:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 04:46:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 10, 2022, 04:37:42 AMBut until now the EU largely refused to rock the boat

Either you vastly underestimate what the EU has done about Hungary so far or overestimate what the EU can do within the current legal framework.

I realise Hungary would be in a much worse place politically by now without EU interference, but on the other hand continued EU grants have made Orban's system possible. He didn't have to reveal himself as an autocrat, he could just buy everything.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 10, 2022, 07:10:53 AM
If Huxit happens, it would separate Romania, Bulgaria, Greece from the rest of the EU. Not ideal, but Greece used to be in that situation in the past, so hopefully wouldn't disrupt things too badly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2022, 07:30:58 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 10, 2022, 07:10:53 AMIf Huxit happens, it would separate Romania, Bulgaria, Greece from the rest of the EU. Not ideal, but Greece used to be in that situation in the past, so hopefully wouldn't disrupt things too badly.

Zelensky has entered the chat.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 10, 2022, 07:32:59 AM
A land connection is not important as there are ways to ship common market goods across a non-EU country, also done in the UK to Ireland.

Anyway, Hungary is economically much more dependent on the goodwill of the EU than vice versa. They would have to agree to far-reaching economic integration without having a say. Become a rule-taker instead of a stumbling block.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 09:26:34 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 10, 2022, 07:32:59 AMA land connection is not important as there are ways to ship common market goods across a non-EU country, also done in the UK to Ireland.

Indeed. Greece fared well enough years before a land connection with the rest of the EU indeed. A bit more problematic for Romania and Bulgaria which do not have such an easy sea link with Italy with the Brindisi-Patras sea lane.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2022, 09:35:34 AM
The EU has the impossible trilemma of: (1) maintaining the existing veto points, (2) keeping the Orbans in, (3) acting effectively.  2 out of 3 are possible, but not all three.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 10, 2022, 02:47:07 PM
There was apparently a surprise visit by VDL to Hungary today - apparently reports are not Huxit (I feel like Magxit works better? :hmm:), but that the EU will fund retro-fitting Hungarian refineries to process non-Russian oil. Although that might just be from the Hungarian press.

From a distance, that just sounds like a shakedown and doesn't seem to make sense?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 11, 2022, 06:45:57 AM
So, latest poll shows the freshly in-parliament nazi party, Our Homeland, as the most popular opposition party, by some margin.

This of course paints a terrible picture but I am not sure what of. They are the ONLY opposition party which received air time in the pro-Orban media over the last 4 years (means anywhere outside fringe websites), and have been handled with a soft glove by the media propagandists.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 18, 2022, 07:52:33 AM
Probably the biggest news of the post-election cabinet reshuffle is that Sandor "The Godfather" Pinter has lost control of the national security organisations (secret service etc). Pinter was a police officer who rose to wealth and prominence through the early- and mid-90s, almost certainly through a lot of connections to organised crime.

He had an air of power and invincibility for long because he always stayed out of public attention and rose to prominence independent of Orban, yet remained a central figure through all Orban governments. But, I guess, at age 73, he could no longer maintain his full grip on power. He will remain Minister of Interior, but his diminished influence is further signalled by healthcare and education moving under his ministry - two badly underfinanced areas strictly outside Orban's interests.

The new boss of the internal clandestine and national security services is Antal "Goebbels" Rogan, an extraordinarily corrupt former mayor of a Budapest district and a long time prominent Fidesz politician. After his corruption cases started to become awkward he was withdrawn to the shadows to manage propaganda efforts. He is a very sinister figure, and I would be hard pressed to think of somebody more dangerous with the secret police under his command.

And true to my suspicions, at his confirmation meeting with the National Security Committee of Parliament (the very definition of a meaningless formality), he outlined that he "will have very specific instructions for the national security services" mainly to "fight pro-war propaganda" and "efforts to make the Hungarian people pay the cost of war".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2022, 12:24:09 PM
Because you can never have enough power in the hands of just one guy...

QuoteHungary's Orban Declares State of Emergency Over War, Economy

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban declared a wartime state of emergency immediately after his new government was installed.

The state of emergency, a new tool Parliament approved earlier on Tuesday, will take effect at midnight and will give the government "maneuvering room and the ability to react immediately" to the fallout from the war in neighboring Ukraine, Orban said in a video message on his Facebook page.

The government will announce its first measures under the emergency on Wednesday, he said.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on May 24, 2022, 12:25:29 PM
Oh that's not ominous at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 24, 2022, 12:35:59 PM
News here say it's basically just an extension of the state of emergency the country has been in since start of Covid. It was supposed to run out May 31st, but the parliament voted that states of emergencies can also be declared due to wars in neighboring countries and humanitarian crises.

Guess someone wanted a legitimization to continue ruling by decree.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 24, 2022, 01:07:46 PM
Indeed and the Covid emergency was the extension of the emergency started because of "migration" in 2015. In effect Orban has been governing by decree (or rather, have had the option to govern by decree) since 2015.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 25, 2022, 11:43:43 AM
The newfound Messiah of American conservatives, Orban, has just announced an extensive list of sectors (air travel, energy, telecomms) who will have to pay windfall tax for two years to finance keeping consumer gas and electricity prices "low". Details to be provided tomorrow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 08, 2022, 12:29:38 PM
Not sure if you have noticed but Hungary is being hit especially hard by inflation, particularly because of historic weakness of its currency. Jumping the base rate by two percent to 8% was necessary to stop the freefall a couple of days ago but its been weak for quite a while.

So the new government propaganda piece is out how this is not their fault and also not really Russia's but the EU's.

Highlights from the little movie:

"The sanctions are prolonging the war"

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7ltlT8EkBIVnP4Dps-xl.png)


"and inflation keeps rising"

"it ruins economies and affects all our lives"

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7ltnbK7Yo0Y2OvDys-xl.png)

"But Hungary is not giving up!"

"PEACE is the only solution to war inflation"

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7ltn7JKP30hlOxDss-xl.png)

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2022, 12:44:43 PM
Sounds like it is Ukraine's fault for not immediately surrendering to Russian aggression.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on July 15, 2022, 07:03:34 AM
It seems the EU is taking Hungary to court on a bunch of issues, amongst them:

- LGBTQ+ discrimination.
- Media freedom, due to licence denial for a radio station.
- Discrimination against non Hungarians in fuel bonuses.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2022, 06:04:18 AM
With the pandemic over the annual Hungarian "conservative" summer jamboree in Transylvania could resume. It has become a tradition for Orban to use this for coming up with enough outrageous BS to keep both his supporters and enemies supplied with a thematic for a year.

Seems like this year with the state budget falling apart he felt a strong need to deflect attention from that, and went heavy on race stuff, among other thing envisioning a need in the future where people on the EU border should be allowed in or barred from entry based not on citizenship but on race, so that Europe's racial purity can be maintained.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on July 23, 2022, 06:09:59 AM
Held in another country. Sigh.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2022, 06:42:38 AM
Also apparently he was using a Russian (derogatory) term for pro-Western people (zapadniks) and he quoted Lenin in Russian.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 23, 2022, 07:09:27 AM
Hungarian foreign minister in Moscow recently:

(https://germany.detailzero.com/content/uploads/2022/07/21/92b1ebe56a.jpg)

Meanwhile, Austrian chancellor Nehammer tweeted that he's looking forward to welcoming Orban in Vienna next week, calling Hungary an important partner and neighbor, and that both Austria and Hungary were heavily affected illegal immigration and they'd discuss fighting it together.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 23, 2022, 09:26:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2022, 06:42:38 AMAlso apparently he was using a Russian (derogatory) term for pro-Western people (zapadniks) and he quoted Lenin in Russian.
The stuff about not wanting the Hungarian race to be mixed is pretty grim.

And he'll now have a full time American propagandist as Rod Dreher, after a stint in Budapest, has now announced he's moving there full-time. Plus I think Orbán is addressing some event in the US that Trump's also speaking at so... :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on July 23, 2022, 10:00:26 AM
Racial purity stuff is always a joke.
But how the hell do they even try to work that with Hungarians? How does the racist version of history go where they manage to get the Asian language without mixing?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 23, 2022, 10:04:21 AM
Isn't that arguably part of it? The unique Hungarian language surviving where it is surrounded by various Indo-European languages?

Edit: Oh and apparently it's okay for Europeans to "mix". Only seeing snippets on Twitter though. Apparently there is an English language official spokesman who was live tweeting but missed the rant on miscegenation somehow <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2022, 04:01:46 PM
I didn't pay attention to the details but I think the racial purity thing was on a European level, as he was foreshadowing the fall of Western civilisation by 2030.

In any case this must be understood in Orbanian context. Namely that he is facing the worst monetary and economic situation of his reign, and his lack of talent to actually govern may very soon show itself very clearly. He emptied the budget during elections, the currency is tanking in big part because it was intentional policy to keep it weak during the good Times, and the EU, so far at least, have been keeping fresh funds away from him.

One particular thing is that he has been forced to cut back on the consumer energy price subsidies which have been a big staple of his reign and a cornerstone of his legitimacy. Altough his grip on power and propaganda may very well be string enough to overcome this, the economic situation must be pretty dire if he took this step, he must hr desperate to trigger a fresh culture war both internally and with the EU.

Of course that still makes these 1940s style comments disgusting and dangerous, but I think they were made because of the above reasons.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2022, 12:41:10 PM
So, uhm, this happened somewhere in the country, the local Fidesz MP had some kind of a meeting/conference with his district's 12 female mayors.

At the end, as what I am sure the MP thought was a fun gimmick, he had the lady mayors learn a dance routine and dance around him. Video link should jump straight when it starts at 2:31.

https://youtu.be/NKVzSLk2_UI?t=151
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on July 25, 2022, 05:30:03 AM
The cringe!  :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 04, 2022, 04:18:12 PM
So after CPAC Budapest, now we've got Orban addressing CPAC in Texas - all about defending Western civilisation and "Judeo-Christian values" from "globalists" etc by winning backk the institutions to much applause.

And the need to win this battle in the two fronts: Washington and Brussels - first in the mid-terms, then in the 2024 US and European elections. Key message seems to be "progressive liberals didn't want me to be here because they knew what I would tell you. I'm here to tell you that we should unite our forces" :bleeding:

Added to things like Rod Dreher moving to Budapest permanently and I think there's going to be a lot more about Hungary and Orban circulating on the American right very soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 05, 2022, 02:32:12 PM
WWF is freaking out because as part of the "energy state of emergency" declared not too long ago, among other things, removes  pretty much all restrictions when it comes to cutting trees - according to them there's now basically a green light to do the lumber version of strip mining.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on August 05, 2022, 03:02:36 PM
Took me a moment to realize you weren't talking about wrestling.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 05, 2022, 11:11:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 04, 2022, 04:18:12 PMSo after CPAC Budapest, now we've got Orban addressing CPAC in Texas - all about defending Western civilisation and "Judeo-Christian values" from "globalists" etc by winning backk the institutions to much applause.

I had no idea that Hungary was so devoutly pious and considered itself a western country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on August 05, 2022, 11:24:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2022, 11:11:27 PMI had no idea that Hungary was so devoutly pious and considered itself a western country.

Similar to Russia in that regard, I think.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 05, 2022, 11:45:24 PM
Ok I did a little research and Hungarians barely attend church at all, much like most of Europe outside of Poland. So much for all its Christian values it is defending.

And LOL at Hungary defending Jewish values.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 06, 2022, 06:09:05 AM
Quote from: Jacob on August 05, 2022, 11:24:39 PMSimilar to Russia in that regard, I think.
Although I don't think Orban poses in the way that Putin does. I don't think Orban gets photoed going to church a lot.

I think it is an extreme example of the "civilisational turn". It's not about piety or people actually going to church but Christianity as part of European/Hungarian "civilisation" against Muslims and the rest of Europe. As Orban put it only Hungary and Poland in Europe have conservative, Christian governments.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on August 06, 2022, 11:51:10 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 06, 2022, 06:09:05 AMAlthough I don't think Orban poses in the way that Putin does. I don't think Orban gets photoed going to church a lot.

I think it is an extreme example of the "civilisational turn". It's not about piety or people actually going to church but Christianity as part of European/Hungarian "civilisation" against Muslims and the rest of Europe. As Orban put it only Hungary and Poland in Europe have conservative, Christian governments.

I don't think the number of photo-ops involving churches makes that much of difference to the core approach which is - as you correctly state - about conservative Christian civilization opposing the uncivilized foreigners and the decadent godless wokeists of the West who will corrupt your children.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 06, 2022, 12:52:13 PM
I wouldn't overthink the whole Christian thing with Orban and Hungary. It is on an extremely superficial level, and in not any way or shape or form can be compared to the role it plays in the US. It is a key nominal part of the followers' political identity, but of no consequence in that identity, or in resulting cultural policies, compared to the race and culture aspects of that overall identity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on August 06, 2022, 12:57:37 PM
Yeah, religion isn't that big of a cultural mover in most of Europe really.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment-varies-by-country-among-people-of-all-ages/

The way it's used by the far right is more in opposition to MUSLIMS TAKING OVER  rather than it having much of a draw on its own.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 06, 2022, 01:45:06 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 06, 2022, 11:51:10 AMI don't think the number of photo-ops involving churches makes that much of difference to the core approach which is - as you correctly state - about conservative Christian civilization opposing the uncivilized foreigners and the decadent godless wokeists of the West who will corrupt your children.
I agree - I think there is a bit of Russian particular-ness about it. Because defending Europe from Godless revolution and the Muslims has been, intermittently, the Russian line since 1789. I think those images of Putin and the role of the Church/Patriarch Kirill is possibly invoking that past - a bit like the other hints at Tsarist Russia by Putin.

I think in most of the rest of Europe - especially with Orban - it's a bit more abstract. There's no need for actual, existing Christianity or a holy Orthodox church to buttress their claims. I think that is different than the US, but maybe the direction they're going in? I keep seeing stuff about how some of the strongest culture war/politicl views seem to be held by "political evangelists" who don't actually go to church that often.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 07, 2022, 08:50:45 AM
So, over the past decade or so there have been many discussions and allegations over just how much the various opposition parties have fallen under Fidesz influence. I won't go over the history, but while nothing could be proved, it was noticeable how most of these parties regularly sabotaged their own chances at winning. Still, I didn't think it went much farther than influential people in these parties being blackmailed/bribed by Fidesz to serve as agents.

But, I think this is where I now draw a line and accept the narrative that this is a pretend-opposition now fully in cahoots with Fidesz in maintaining the status quo of the Orbanist regime.

Why? Well, as I wrote earlier, Orban is easily facing the worst crisis of all his reign, including his 1998-2002 stint. The EU is not willing to pay grants, there is huge inflation, the decade-long policy of keeping the currency weak is coming back with a vengeance as its reaching record lows, the main legitimacy of the system, low utility costs are going out the window as the state is now unable to finance them, the vehicle fuel price cap is starting to cause shortages, there has been a drought, etc.

It's a golden opportunity for an opposition, even one that has to deal with such a handicap of being shut out of most publicity, like Hungary's.

So, what do they do? Well, they have been largely silent so far. But now, MSZP (the old ruling Socialist party which is now a dim shadow, a dead husk moving ahead by dead-weight momentum from its heydays) has made an announcement, closely followed by Jobbik (the once-nazi now moderate-right party) who will do their own separate version of MSZP's initiative.

What initiative? I'll tell you: both parties (independent of each other) will begin to organise for calling a national referendum to... re-affirm Hungary's EU membership.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on August 07, 2022, 08:55:21 AM
Is Hungary leaving the EU even a remote theoretical possibility? :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 07, 2022, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 07, 2022, 08:55:21 AMIs Hungary leaving the EU even a remote theoretical possibility? :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

FU
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on August 07, 2022, 09:17:58 AM
We could trade it for Ukraine.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on August 07, 2022, 09:51:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 07, 2022, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 07, 2022, 08:55:21 AMIs Hungary leaving the EU even a remote theoretical possibility? :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

FU

I mean it would suck for you personally, and a lot of Hungarians, but it'd be better for the eu.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 14, 2022, 03:54:42 PM
Apparently what Orban has gained by committing to Putin is... nothing.

I do wonder what's in it for him (maybe he really is effectively an active agent at this point?). He is completely  treated like a dog being kicked around if that's better for his master's plans.

I wrote about all the economic trouble the country is facing. So Orban sent a delegation led by the Foreign Minister (that master of negotiation proclaimed at the start: "we are willing to pay any price to get the gas we need") to get more gas shipments from Russia.

Apparently, they were aiming to get a billion cubic meters extra, but all they managed to beg together is 52 million, to be sent over a 20 days period.

52 million cubic meters of gas is Hungary's average daily usage. In other words he received nothing. I have little doubt this is because Putin wants to avoid Hungary selling gas to Germany during the winter and/or build a sufficient gas reserve.

I feel sorry for all the people freezing during winter, but I am glad the spineless shithead is being treated like the POS he is.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on August 21, 2022, 11:38:18 AM
So, an Hungarian I know from a non-Paradox videogame forum has just posted that he can't stand it anymore and he's upping sticks and leaving the country (he's married with two kids). Fairly affable fellow, never seen him talk politics in the 2-3 years I've known him.

Feels like in the end Orban will perpetuate himself by forcing liberal Hungarians to emigrate.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 21, 2022, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2022, 11:38:18 AMSo, an Hungarian I know from a non-Paradox videogame forum has just posted that he can't stand it anymore and he's upping sticks and leaving the country (he's married with two kids). Fairly affable fellow, never seen him talk politics in the 2-3 years I've known him.

Feels like in the end Orban will perpetuate himself by forcing liberal Hungarians to emigrate.

I think that has already happened. Most of the non-student people who were to really leave have left. There are hundreds of thousands of people (could be as high as half a million) who instead of going to protests and voting opposition have instead emigrated.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on August 21, 2022, 02:21:43 PM
Doesnt Hungary have a really generous system for citizens abroad to vote?

But ja. It doesn't even take emigration imo. Its one of my personal conspiracies that right wing populists encourage poverty on purpose as they know it creates supporters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 21, 2022, 02:30:09 PM
I think it's got very restrictive rules for expats who live in the ROTW and very generous rules for the diaspora who live in neighbouring states - that Orban occasionally makes quasi-revanchist gestures towards.

So basically the young, educated and liberal migrants who are likely to oppose Orban have hoops to jump through, while the people who borders moved around in the twentieth century can vote very easily.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 21, 2022, 04:32:37 PM
Sheilbh is right but is diaspora the right word? (honest grammar question). Those people across the border are runic Hungarians, descendants of ethnic Hungarians who never moves anywhere after finding themselves on the wrong side of the new "national" borders created in Trianon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2022, 04:35:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 07, 2022, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 07, 2022, 08:55:21 AMIs Hungary leaving the EU even a remote theoretical possibility? :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

FU
I thought you were British now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 21, 2022, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 21, 2022, 04:32:37 PMSheilbh is right but is diaspora the right word? (honest grammar question). Those people across the border are runic Hungarians, descendants of ethnic Hungarians who never moves anywhere after finding themselves on the wrong side of the new "national" borders created in Trianon.
Fair point.

Not sure there is really a word I can think of - tried to get some of it with people the borders have moved around but I'm not sure there's a single word in English for it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on August 22, 2022, 06:08:26 AM
So how does it work if you're a born in Budapest Hungarian who then moves to Slovakia?- do you need to be in the ethnic Hungarian areas or have heritage in there or its just open to you just the same?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2022, 07:41:11 AM
Quote from: Josquius on August 22, 2022, 06:08:26 AMSo how does it work if you're a born in Budapest Hungarian who then moves to Slovakia?- do you need to be in the ethnic Hungarian areas or have heritage in there or its just open to you just the same?

I think its by geography so you if you live in Slovakia you can just mail in your vote.

It's also worth noting that I absolutely do not trust this regime's handling of mail in ballots, even votes taken at embassies. The leaders of this regime, when it falls, will go to prison and this has been the case for at least 8 years now. They would be absolute fools not to cheat at every opportunity they get, and with the election authority (overseen by their stooge) having confirmed they do not monitor the gathering and processing of mail-in ballots until they land with them, this is a prime ground for cheating and fraud.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2022, 07:43:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 22, 2022, 07:41:11 AMThe leaders of this regime, when it falls, will go to prison

:lol: I admire your optimism. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2022, 09:39:31 AM
Let me dream. :( But its definitely a risk they are running. There are hundreds of millions of euros worth of money they stole even according to laws they changed. It's control of the attorney general's office which keeps them protected.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2022, 10:28:44 AM
So with the whole state budget crumbling and schools are instructed to present plans to adopt burning firewood to heat classrooms (just to give an example of the state of the country), the government has made an offer to buy Vodafone's Hungarian company, which Vodafone has accepted. In their words: they did not seek to sell but the offer was too good to refuse.

The purchase is going to be done half by the state, and half by one of the companies of Orban's human wallet. They are together paying close to 2 billion euros.

That is a staggering amount of money and in any country which has not fallen to total resignation, there would be street protests at the reckless abandon at which tax payer money is burned on powerplays and corruption instead of financing very basic state functions which are faltering across the board.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2022, 05:06:33 PM
20th August is a big national holiday, sort of like our 4th of July. Although this year Orban decided not to break his holiday in Croatia because of it so there is that.

It is customary to hold a big fireworks in Budapest on the night of the 20th. In 2006 5 people died when a massive storm descended on the large crowds watching.

So you can excuse the government for cancelling the event half a day before its start last weekend, based on the National Weather Service warning of a high chance of storm.

But then there wasn't even rain,  even though pretty severe storms went through the country the night before.

After a day of concentrated and intense outrage by the various pro government media, the leadership of the weather service has been fired this morning by the relevant Minister.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 29, 2022, 03:32:41 AM
(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a319DXQ_700bwp.webp)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 31, 2022, 03:16:38 PM
First country to cut a deal with Putin post-invasion, obviously :(
QuoteZoltan Kovacs
@zoltanspox
BREAKING: Hungary signs contract with @GazpromEN  about max. 5.8 million m3 extra natural gas on a daily basis, on top of the contract quantity already in force. Hungary's energy supply is safe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 31, 2022, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 31, 2022, 03:16:38 PM
QuoteHungary's energy supply is safe.

Is it though?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 31, 2022, 05:04:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 31, 2022, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 31, 2022, 03:16:38 PM
QuoteHungary's energy supply is safe.

Is it though?

As long as they grovel enough and Putin is in the mood to honour the contract, sure.

Must have cost an arm and a leg too as the price isn't disclosed.

Then again the gas supply is channeled through one of the oligarc companies so maybe they hide the price because its so cheap.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on August 31, 2022, 05:07:34 PM
And I can see it being very much in Putin's interests to show that if you cut a deal with him, he'll turn the gas on - at least until he needs to pressure you again.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on September 15, 2022, 01:37:52 PM
QuoteHungary is no longer a full democracy, says European parliament
MEPs back resolution stating country led by Viktor Orbán has become 'hybrid regime of electoral autocracy'

Hungary can no longer be considered a full democracy, the European parliament has said in a powerful symbolic vote against Viktor Orbán's government.

In a resolution backed by 81% of MEPs present to vote, the parliament stated that Hungary had become a "hybrid regime of electoral autocracy", citing a breakdown in democracy, fundamental rights and the rule of law.

While the vote has no practical effect, it heightens pressure on EU authorities in Brussels not to disburse billions in EU cash to Hungary that is being withheld over concerns about corruption.

Hungary is battling to persuade the European Commission to release €4.64bn in Covid recovery funds, frozen for more than a year. Budapest is also trying to stave off a separate legal procedure that could lead to deductions from €24.3bn of cohesion funds, money for infrastructure and economic development.


The European Commission is expected to propose cutting 70% of Hungary's cohesion funds on Sunday, but will also open the door to a compromise, according to two MEPs familiar with discussions. "More or less what we hear is that the commission will propose ... these sanctions or financial measures," said Moritz Körner, a German MEP, who has been briefed by the commission.

In a recent internal paper, commission officials suggested there was a "very significant" risk over Hungary's management of EU funds, citing breaches in public interest rules and an unusually high number of contracts awarded to a single bidder – a red flag for transparency watchers. The paper, which has been removed from the commission's website, suggests a 70% cut in funds as "proportionate" to the risk.

Hungary will be given until mid-November to get its house in order. After a charm offensive in Brussels, Hungary's government is expected next week to propose a raft of laws to combat corruption. Critics fear the commission is ready to accept cosmetic changes to defuse the conflicts over EU funds.

"The commission has made a half-hearted deal with the Hungarian government on the kind of change they want to see," said Daniel Freund, a German Green MEP, also briefed on the commission's plans. "There is a very short timeframe and ... to expect that the damage that Orbán has done with [his] constitutional majority over 12 years, can now be repaired in a matter of weeks, or a couple of months, I think is optimistic to put it mildly."

Orbán has been in office since 2010 and held a two-thirds parliamentary majority for much of this time.

A European Commission spokesperson declined to comment, but said it was analysing "the remedial measures" submitted by Hungary and had until 21 September to determine the next step.

The European parliament's resolution, which points to "the risks of clientelism, favouritism and nepotism in high-level public administration", however, will make any climbdown on the protection of EU funds more difficult.

Gwendoline Delbos-Corfield, the French MEP who drafted the resolution, described the conclusions as clear and irrevocable. "Hungary is not a democracy. It was more urgent than ever for the parliament to take this stance, considering the alarming rate at which the rule of law is backsliding in Hungary."

She added that "the large majority of MEPs supporting this position in the European parliament is unprecedented". Of the 534 MEPs present for the vote in Strasbourg, 433 voted in favour, 123 against and 28 abstained.

Responding to the vote, Hungary's chief spokesman Zoltán Kovács said the European Parliament "would do better do focus on energy prices that have tripled and quadrupled due to the failed sanctions," reprising his government's critique of the EU's restrictive measures against Russia.

The large majority was aided by Orbán's decision in 2021 to quit the political family of Europe's centre-right, the European People's party (EPP). The EPP had previously offered Hungary's Fidesz party some protection from critical votes, but Orbán withdrew his party before it was pushed out by centre-right MEPs.

The vote comes almost exactly four years after MEPs voted to trigger disciplinary action against Hungary, a decision that ultimately lies in the hands of the 26 other EU member states, who have mostly shown little appetite for conflict with Budapest.

MEPs, who have no power to deny funds to Hungary, have blamed the EU council of ministers and the European Commission for alleged inaction, a point made clear in the resolution. The MEPs expressed "deep regret that the lack of decisive EU action has contributed to a breakdown in democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights in Hungary, turning the country into a hybrid regime of electoral autocracy".

The parliament's damning conclusion was based on reports from bodies belonging to the Council of Europe, as well as case law from the EU's court of justice and the separate European court of human rights.

MEPs also cited the verdict of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), which reported in April that Hungary's election that returned Orbán to power for a fourth straight term was "marred by the absence of a level playing field". The OSCE sent a fully fledged mission to Hungary, an almost unprecedented step for an EU member state.

The report also noted the concerns of Hungarian judges over judicial independence in their country, after numerous changes by the Orbán government, including the appointment of supreme court judges outside normal procedures.

The measure was opposed by MEPs from Eurosceptic and far-right parties. In a statement included in the draft resolution, they argued the conclusions were "based on subjective opinions and politically biassed statements" that reflected "vague concerns, value judgments and double standards".

These MEPs also claimed that the report was based on "cases that were settled a long time ago by the responsible bodies, or which concern issues that form part of public debate and belong to the sole competence of member states".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 15, 2022, 04:13:14 PM
What worries me is that the EU will accept the ridiculous "compromise" offered by Orban of creating a new "independent" anti-corruption authority/court in the country.

Even knowing this much should make it clear that its an insulting bluff because nothing Orban has ever created was made to be independent of him, let alone being given credentials to prosecute him and his people.

But the ministers charged with the formation of this court are some of his core lieutenants including Antal Rogan who is the most blatantly corrupt of the whole lot, a very cynical and dangerous man who has been this year put into charge of all clandestine services in addition to his older role of being the chief propagandist.

If the EU pays out the grants based on this Goebbels-Beria infusion of a gangster creating for them an anti-corruption unit, well... They reveal their true qualities and dedication to maintaining democracy. It must not happen.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 16, 2022, 07:46:48 AM
Fidesz had its annual unofficial party conference event where Everyone Who Counts converge to discuss stuff.

Oddly, although pro-government press was allowed in, there has been complete radio silence on what Orban said in his keynote speech at the event, the press apparently was not allowed to report on it.

Radio Free Europe now claims they have learned about its contents from multiple sources. Key points:

Orban is working on raising the next generation of Fidesz, ones who will be capable to govern (lol as if), as they will be taking the party and country over from 2030 to 2060.

He indicated he is looking to apply internationally the same sort of grassroots-organisation method which saved his ass after the political defeats of 2002 and 2006 and which -to be fair- was a grand idea that built his support at local levels and were the basis for his stranglehold on the country. He imagines this happening via conservative circles, influencers etc.

He also said he will be working on preventing the extension of anti-Russian sanctions this autumn. He hinted at the Italian elections by saying he expects he'll have additional support for this by then.

He, allegedly, expects the disollusion of the eurozone by 2030, maybe the EU itself as well, and by 2040 French and other western major cities shall have a Muslim majority ( :wacko: ).

He expects the Visegrad 4s will be net contributors to the EU budget by 2030, so the country's EU membership will need to be evaluated by then (this one bit I believe he actually meant - it is perfectly conceivable he is unable to see past the profit he is making and the curbs on his power).

Finally, he considers a demographic turnaround in the country crucial so he'll be announcing more "pro-family" policies the next few weeks.



 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 16, 2022, 07:53:36 AM
Oh, and he really has a fixation on 2030 because he also said the war in Ukraine may last up until 2030 and Ukraine is likely to lose up to third of its territory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on September 18, 2022, 10:59:51 AM
QuoteThe European Union's executive branch recommended Sunday that the bloc suspend around 7.5 billion euros ($7.5 billion) in funding to Hungary over concerns about democratic backsliding and the possible mismanagement of EU money.


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/eu-recommends-suspending-billions-in-funding-to-hungary/ar-AA11X9EH
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2022, 09:39:59 AM
Incredibly, the government keeps digging deeper into blaming all economic troubles on the EU and its sanctions on Russia (rather than, you know, on Russia).

Latest is that they are going to have their usual "national consultations" (a sort of consultation referendum with extremely loaded propaganda questions, like the last time about whether you want transgender propaganda in kindergarten) on the EU sanctions.

It will be just glorious to have a whole national referendum proclaim that no, Hungarians don't want sanctions on Russia. I mean, judging by previous "consultations" the question is likely to be:
"Some people think we should have no heating in schools and hospitals, and accept high inflation to support Ukraine's war in the Donbas. Others feel like we should have peace and a prosperous economy instead. Do you:
a) want no heating during winter and runaway inflation
b) want peace and prosperity"

But still.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on September 22, 2022, 10:37:55 AM
Nice to see some balls from Europe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2022, 11:59:26 AM
So do Hungarians now consider the invasion of Hungary by Russia in 1849 to be a good thing? Maybe the only failure was the failure of Nicholas I to annex Hungary into the glorious Russian Empire.

I can see the referendum now:
Some people think we should have death and economic hardship to support war. Others feel like we should have  peace and prosperity under our glorious Russian Overlords.
Do you:
a) want death and economic hardship in a war
b) want peace and prosperity
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 23, 2022, 02:56:06 AM
The Hungarian foreign minister Szijjarto reports to talks with Lavrov in New York.

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7np70MJ1n3xlX2M1s-xl.jpeg)

Nice picture. The face and body language (Szijjarto is second from the right with his back to camera, the small room, and the Putin picture on the wall.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 26, 2022, 08:00:56 AM
The new season of the Hungarian Parliament is on, which is of course more meaningless than ever before, but it still is a strong start, the opposition parties -in my opinion- assisting to the democratic pantomime by debating the situation around the war and inflation there.

My favourite bit probably was Orban declaring "a dwarf is sanctioning a giant" (in regards to the EU sanctions against Russia).

He also claimed energy prices and inflation in general would halve "immediately" following the cancelling of the sanctions.

Effectively, the New Enemy (after migrants and later homosexuals) is now The Sanctions. There is always a way lower and making the country look more and more repugnant. It's maddening.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on September 26, 2022, 09:08:00 AM
Unfortunately with the new Italian government, the EU is unlikely to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Legbiter on September 26, 2022, 09:46:40 AM
Hungary and Italy don't matter that much though wrt Ukraine. :hmm: They can blame the war for their domestic woes but unless they want to be hit with secondary sanctions they'll just grumble.  The countries most opposed to Russia largely dictate the policy that will be implemented. So the US, the UK, Poland, the Nordics etc. Poland is of course the logistical end hub right next door to Ukraine. They will all continue to back Ukraine while it kills off the Russian mobilization wave and liberates it's territory this winter.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 29, 2022, 10:12:54 AM
There may be a "who collapses first" race developing between the UK and Hungary.

Experts in Hungary are very puzzled by a leaked directive to all ministries that there must be a temporary stop to all payments sans wages in the public sector.

This is quite unprecedented, and has not happened in Hungary since the 1970s.

What puzzles these experts is that judging by official numbers the country is supposed to have enough reserves to get by without such actions, not to mention that bonds could also be issued.

As one of them put it "something is obviously broken, but we cannot see what".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on September 30, 2022, 06:38:27 PM
I would think Beet bonds would be a pretty risky investment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 05, 2022, 01:50:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2022, 11:38:18 AMSo, an Hungarian I know from a non-Paradox videogame forum has just posted that he can't stand it anymore and he's upping sticks and leaving the country (he's married with two kids). Fairly affable fellow, never seen him talk politics in the 2-3 years I've known him.

Feels like in the end Orban will perpetuate himself by forcing liberal Hungarians to emigrate.

An update. He found a job in Sweden and he's moving today with all his family. That was quick.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 05, 2022, 01:52:14 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2022, 01:50:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2022, 11:38:18 AMSo, an Hungarian I know from a non-Paradox videogame forum has just posted that he can't stand it anymore and he's upping sticks and leaving the country (he's married with two kids). Fairly affable fellow, never seen him talk politics in the 2-3 years I've known him.

Feels like in the end Orban will perpetuate himself by forcing liberal Hungarians to emigrate.

An update. He found a job in Sweden and he's moving today with all his family. That was quick.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 05, 2022, 02:07:53 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2022, 11:38:18 AMFeels like in the end Orban will perpetuate himself by forcing liberal Hungarians to emigrate.

I heard something similar a while ago about Poland, how with all the young and educated people that moved away after joining the EU there's no wonder they keep electing retrogrades, what with there only being old people and country bumpkins left in the country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on October 05, 2022, 03:09:53 AM
Its the situation with rural areas in the US and increasingly in the UK only on a national level.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 14, 2022, 09:13:21 AM
With the recent and escalating Russia-friendliness of the government, it was a bit of an interesting question, how they will approach 23rd October, the anniversary of our 1956 revolution against Russian occupation (which of course after initial success was crushed by Russian tanks destroying significant portions of Budapest in early November).

After all, it would be hard to praise the heroes of 1956 without sounding like you think the Ukrainians are right to defend their home.

Seems like they have figured out what to do, in his weekly radio "interview" today, Orban explained that in 1956 we did not fight to defeat the Soviet Union, everyone know that was impossible. We -he said- fought to achieve a cease fire and negotiations.

Which needless to say is bollocks. First of all because when the Soviet reinforcements stormed Budapest on 4th November, their brutality left no doubt that they have zero intention of negotiating with the new regime.

Shameless, really. If we had an actual public discourse still in the country, this could turn ugly for them because the sacral nature of 1956 was key to the post-1988 consensus (rightly so since everyone from nazis to democrats were fighting together against Russians and Quislings) and now putting a "well actually they just kind of wanted to get better terms from the Russians" spin on it would had been an absolute outrage even just 10 yeas ago.

But it will go unchallenged now of course. He might still find an excuse to skip his big 23 October speech though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 15, 2022, 06:48:48 AM
Public education has come so close to collapse that is sparking the largest protests in years. Most schools have been struggling with a chronic lack of teachers because they have abysmal salaries, and heavily increased workload (along with students) plus a centralised system that makes dealing with local challenges impossible. As a typical example, a couple of months ago some people spotted on a job site that a dual-language high school was offering a higher starting salary for cleaners than for a dual-language history teacher.

As a typical showcase of how meek most people are, protests did not really take off until a mass of high-school students started making a stand for their schools and teachers. A handful of teachers tried to "strike" for something like a few hours every week but they and others grew bolder once the students were willing to go into the "front line".

Now it has grown into regular protests not just in Budapest but other cities as well. The state, as it can be expected from a Putinist one, tried to intimidate the protesting teachers into submissions, which so far has only been oil to the fire. They are also trying the rhetoric of "we wanted to spend the EU grants on teachers' salaries but Brussels aren't paying so our hands are tied". Which is of course ridiculous on a number of levels, and I don't think people are buying it.

It's encouraging to see young people (teens, really) organise the loudest and best demonstrations in several years. But we are still facing the problem that it is one particular small demographics trying to make a stand, while the myriad others disadvantaged by the system remain passively on the sidelines. Although I think a few trade unions are trying to rally cross-sectors protests and strike actions since with the recession unfolding the compromise of letting the regime go rampant in exchange of an illusion of stability is falling apart.

A few photos from yesterday:

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7oMh4ILSJHLseKQts-xxl.jpeg)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7oMYHXo38itT11mgWs-xxl.jpeg)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7oMboKjJxbya1NAums-lg.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 15, 2022, 08:08:34 PM
Damn. Ah well Hungary clearly cares nothing for its youth, I suppose its no wonder they don't give a shit about schools either.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2022, 10:35:27 AM
Latest government ad campaign "the sanctions by Brussels are ruining us!"


(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7oSeVDMom59B1Roxss-xl.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2022, 11:51:47 AM
Well then leave the EU and cease to be ruined.

And leave NATO as well.

We will gladly take Sweden and Finland in exchange for your dumb ass.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 18, 2022, 12:32:48 PM
It feels like the Leave Campaign, except that these sods won't leave  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 12:34:39 PM
I hope they escalate it to the point where they actually leave.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on October 18, 2022, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 12:34:39 PMI hope they escalate it to the point where they actually leave.

It's not like Brexit was a great example of what Leaving will do for a country... :lol:

Besides - the EU is a very useful foil for Orban.  Why would he ever want to give that up?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2022, 01:01:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 18, 2022, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 12:34:39 PMI hope they escalate it to the point where they actually leave.

It's not like Brexit was a great example of what Leaving will do for a country... :lol:

Besides - the EU is a very useful foil for Orban.  Why would he ever want to give that up?

And the EU actually benefits Hungary a ton. Orban is full of shit, that's the joke. He doesn't actually oppose the EU or the West at all. He just blusters and blabs and talks to benefit himself politically. Nobody benefits more from the West than Orban.

He is somehow benefitting enormously from the West and western support yet somehow pretending like the West is oppressing him and a shitty country like Russia can somehow benefit Hungary in some way. The reason he is doing this seems to be culture wars to me. He is saying he will crush social movements for LGBT rights and nefarious Jews and immigrants. The West is therefore their tool in that context.

And this guy is who the Tucker Carlsons of the world admire. That says it all to me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 18, 2022, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 12:34:39 PMI hope they escalate it to the point where they actually leave.

It's not like Brexit was a great example of what Leaving will do for a country... :lol:
If Huxit would bring Hungary to the same level of political function and accountability as Britain, that would be major progress.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2022, 01:34:52 PM
Allegedly Orban said recently in a closed doors meeting of his primary cohort of lieutenants and media people etc. that he will need to re-evaluate the point of continued EU membership once Hungary becomes a net contributor (which he puts at 2030, and I at 2130).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 03:54:33 PM
Hungary is the second biggest net beneficiary of the EU, after Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2022, 06:13:42 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 18, 2022, 01:34:52 PMAllegedly Orban said recently in a closed doors meeting of his primary cohort of lieutenants and media people etc. that he will need to re-evaluate the point of continued EU membership once Hungary becomes a net contributor (which he puts at 2030, and I at 2130).

So the plan is to just steal money as long as he can? Well I guess glad to know he doesn't treat foreign tax payers money with any more or less respect he treated yours Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2022, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 03:54:33 PMHungary is the second biggest net beneficiary of the EU, after Poland.

OH BUT BRUSSELLS IS RUINING US!!!11
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 18, 2022, 06:15:31 PM
I wonder which countries he thinks will be net benificiaries when Hungary graduates.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 18, 2022, 06:37:03 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2022, 12:32:48 PMIt feels like the Leave Campaign, except that these sods won't leave  :lol:
I think it's the great example of Orban for others across Europe - you can be pretty racist and authoritarian while still getting EU money and not actually having to go through any difficulty of leaving. And we'll wait for details but last I heard the Commission were close to signing off a deal on rule of law that would unlock funds for Hungary - much to the fury of the European Parliament who worry that it basically neuters the rule of law mechanism on its first go.

And, frankly, if you keep your head down, it won't even get noticed. In terms of media freedom the worst country in the EU (according to Reporters Without Borders) is Greece, not Hungary, and they've fallen fast. Civil society groups are trying to raise the alarm on lots of other issues too. But the Greek government play along. They're helpful with Frontex, they're not causing problems in the Eurozone and they're not positioning themselves as troublemakers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 19, 2022, 12:39:56 AM
Wait how can Greece possibly be worse?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 19, 2022, 01:33:53 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 18, 2022, 03:54:33 PMHungary is the second biggest net beneficiary of the EU, after Poland.

And it's the third largest per capita beneficiary (only Lithuania and Luxemburg lag behind), they would need to leapfrog  15 other countries before they become a net contributor.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 19, 2022, 01:40:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 19, 2022, 12:39:56 AMWait how can Greece possibly be worse?

Just checked and The Economist democracy index puts them at 7.56. This is low compared to Western Europe but high when compared to Eastern Europe/Balkans (Hungary is at 6.5, Poland 6.8), and it's been trending upwards for the past few years.

Funny how their democracy score totally tanked during the troika years. Who whould have thought!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 19, 2022, 03:19:58 AM
Quotelast I heard the Commission were close to signing off a deal on rule of law that would unlock funds for Hungary - much to the fury of the European Parliament who worry that it basically neuters the rule of law mechanism on its first go.

Yeah I mentioned here earlier that the "solutions" offered by Hungary are ridiculous fig-leaves. If/when the Commission signs off on them, it will be like when Escobar agreed to go into jail - of his own making.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on October 19, 2022, 01:33:10 PM
I have no ill will towards the people of Hungary, but if they want to be a Russian dependency I think we should let them.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 19, 2022, 01:39:26 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 19, 2022, 01:33:10 PMI have no ill will towards the people of Hungary, but if they want to be a Russian dependency I think we should let them.

They don't though. This is all bullshit designed to generate fear and hatred of foreigners to preserve Orban in power.

But eventually people come to believe their own bullshit, So yeah, if they want to leave the EU the EU should fall over itself trying to help them leave. They are nothing but an incredible net negative in every respect.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 19, 2022, 01:40:53 PM
The only problem with Hungary is that it's in the EU. If they want to be Belarus then that would be fine in itself, but as an EU member it's not great.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 19, 2022, 01:42:15 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 19, 2022, 01:40:53 PMThe only problem with Hungary is that it's in the EU.

Yes. If they weren't they would not be of any concern at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 23, 2022, 05:11:19 AM
Orban avoided doing his annual big 1956 Revolution memorial day rally and speech today and attendes some related very minor non-event instead.

There, he deducted that we were just about winning 1956 when the West "betrayed us for the second time since 1945" and thus we lost.

Good to know who the REAL evils of the 1945 and 1956 stories were.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on October 23, 2022, 05:55:41 AM
Any habsburgs still around? They did a pretty decent job of keeping the Hungarians in line last time around.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 24, 2022, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2022, 05:11:19 AMOrban avoided doing his annual big 1956 Revolution memorial day rally and speech today and attendes some related very minor non-event instead.

There, he deducted that we were just about winning 1956 when the West "betrayed us for the second time since 1945" and thus we lost.

Good to know who the REAL evils of the 1945 and 1956 stories were.

How did we betray them either time? Did we guarantee them something in either year? Last I checked Hungary has only been our ally since 2004. What exactly did Hungary do for the West to justify this loyalty we were supposed to show them? Last I checked they spent the entire inter-war period being revisionist and anti-Western.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 24, 2022, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: HVC on October 23, 2022, 05:55:41 AMAny habsburgs still around? They did a pretty decent job of keeping the Hungarians in line last time around.  :P

Yeah so in 1921 the Habsburgs entered Budapest and tried to take the throne back but his monarchist regent told him to shove off. Kind of funny really. Turns out being an authoritarian monarchist is more fun without a monarch to get in the way.

Though to be fair to Horthy all of Hungary's neighbors threatened war if they let Charles back on the throne. So there is that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2022, 12:22:59 PM
There's that Habsburg who is now Hungary's Ambassador to the Vatican who all the trad accounts online love.

Not sure he'd help out much given he's presumably appointed by Orban :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 24, 2022, 12:34:58 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 24, 2022, 12:22:59 PMThere's that Habsburg who is now Hungary's Ambassador to the Vatican who all the trad accounts online love.

Not sure he'd help out much given he's presumably appointed by Orban :hmm:

Wiki says he is 93rd in line to the Hungarian throne. Being such a trad I doubt he would agree to jump 92 people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on October 24, 2022, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 24, 2022, 12:21:07 PMTurns out being an authoritarian monarchist is more fun without a monarch to get in the way.

That was, more or less, Franco's take too. It was sometimes said that during Francoism Spain was a monarchy without a king.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2022, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 24, 2022, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 24, 2022, 12:21:07 PMTurns out being an authoritarian monarchist is more fun without a monarch to get in the way.

That was, more or less, Franco's take too. It was sometimes said that during Francoism Spain was a monarchy without a king.

Can't really beat Hungary under Horthy though, a kingdom without a king, ruled by an admiral without a sea.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on October 24, 2022, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 24, 2022, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 24, 2022, 12:21:07 PMTurns out being an authoritarian monarchist is more fun without a monarch to get in the way.

That was, more or less, Franco's take too. It was sometimes said that during Francoism Spain was a monarchy without a king.

Yeah, he restored Spain as a kingdom but then appointed himself Head of State for life, instead of naming a figurehead king (since at the time the Bourbons considered him basically a squatter and weren't playing ball).

IIRC he reserved himself the power to grant the title of king to anyone he fucking wanted. I know it ultimately was for the better but I'm lowkey disappointed that he went with the easy choice of bringing the Bourbons back instead of being a bit... creative  :lol: 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on November 06, 2022, 02:24:40 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgyO9MOXEAACsWs?format=jpg&name=medium)

Who were "they" again?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on November 06, 2022, 02:48:32 AM
Progressives, since the USSR was socialist. Duh.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 06, 2022, 05:14:42 AM
"they" :bleeding:

And this is the guy who kickstarted his national fame by calling for the Soviet troops to be withdrawn on the massive public event of the re-burial of the 1956 martyrs. But of course, as it turned out later, he was not brave, but just his usual backstabbing self - the decision to withdraw had been made by that time and the communists negotiating with the opposition groups (including Fidesz) revealed this, but they all made an agreement not to make this public until after the re-burial.


Here, a bit of performance by some Poles protesting in front of the Hungarian embassy in Warsaw: trying -and failing- to drag Orban out of Putin's ass:

(https://scontent.fgba1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/314069436_420342763631125_7858996534972018044_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=hA9ER2wHyvMAX_X_zu3&_nc_ht=scontent.fgba1-1.fna&oh=03_AdS9WwTCd_3DsZ2b2UqFHuGCOAYDTOPoswOfkTwpbSin1A&oe=638F0345)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 06, 2022, 05:20:05 AM
Quote from: Zanza on November 06, 2022, 02:24:40 AMWho were "they" again?

Gays and refugees.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on November 14, 2022, 05:31:48 PM
(https://yt3.ggpht.com/OFQ1zmJFpLPXbzKLjAWar7avTz9v9BJldu3OPVJa5PpuFy6QX6TAUUoGy6a2mHDfz6xejSEBROhQxg=s607-c-fcrop64=1,00000000ffffb81c-nd-v1)

What a charming and fraternal way to invite Poland to jointly conquer Slovakia  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 22, 2022, 11:55:51 AM
I think these are not the current borders of Hungary on Orbán's scarf. :hmm:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiK3b-sXkAAY2sZ?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 22, 2022, 05:24:39 PM
I love that all the Brussels correspondents are reminiscing about the controversy when Hungary was EuCo President in 2011 and, as is customary, they got to install an artwork in one of the EU buildings in Brussels. Hungary chose a series of carpets with as the centrepiece a carpet of Hungary's pre-Trianon borders.

Somehow still better than when the Czechs commissioned that piece of art for their presidency about various European stereotypes where Bulgaria was represented by a squatting toilet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on November 22, 2022, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 22, 2022, 11:55:51 AMI think these are not the current borders of Hungary on Orbán's scarf. :hmm:

Indeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/23/hungary-pm-viktor-orban-scarf-showing-ukraine-territory-hungarian
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2022, 05:00:29 AM
Nice troll, he badly needed a fresh fight against "foreign oppression" so this will come handy.

The scarf is unacceptable of course. In general terms I just wish the case of Hungarian minorities could not be so easily dismissed because of irredentists unable to let the bloody borders go.

The Hungarians in Ukraine has been a bit of collateral damage of the war with Russia in the sense that curbing minority rights to contain Russian subversion also meant curbing their rights as well, and there have been some incidents with neo-nazis the last few years (although I think the most severe couple of cases can be traced back to Russian efforts to create unrest).

The Szekelys (big Hungarian enclave deep in the mountains of Transylvania, not a mish-mash of nationalities like the rest of Transylvania) have a very good case for autonomy that has been dismissed for decades.


A personal memory of mine which gave an indication of how it can feel to be a Hungarian minority was in Slovakia around 15-odd years ago. We were driving through with the family, we stopped at a petrol station that was in a village which had its name sign up in both Hungarian and Slovakian (close to the border). So when I entered the shop and didn't know how "good morning" was in Slovakian, I felt a greeting in Hungarian was the second best option, since I am pretty sure the old guy at the counter knew at least THAT much of the language.

Well, he ignored my greeting and my general existence as I made my way to the restroom. When I was leaving, my sister was entering the shop and she opted for an English "good morning" which did get an instant reply from the guy. I have also heard many stories from various acquaintances over the years about the various (usually small) incidents being Hungarian brought them across the borders.


The above is not an excuse for Orban, rather a further criticism, that such asshatery is not helping the rightful case of respecting minority rights. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2022, 07:12:12 AM
One of the so-called concessions Orban has made to the EU in order to get the grants to keep fueling his little kleptocracy was the creation of the "Integrity Authority" a supposed anti-corruption independent body (whose creation was tasked on the singularly most corrupt lieutenant of Orban). This new authority started working from 19 November, except that nobody is to be found in their offices, which are closed.

After two opposition MPs tried to visit them on two separate occasions finding the offices closed - and then inquired in writing as of where the hell everyone is- they have been told that this is normal as the authority do not accept visitors, any report of suspicion of corruption should be sent to them via letter or email. Obviously that doesn't explain why the offices are deserted, probably the entire "authority" is some secretary somewhere, told to bin any mail coming in to them.

It's just ridiculous, I hope the EU won't fall for this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 05, 2022, 04:32:03 PM
There are so many examples over the years (I think I shared a few here) of the police being in cahoots with the various private "security" firms and their thugs, this new one is a very minor one but still simbolises things very nicely.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1348257149317692

This is a small protest in front of one of the big (obviously oligarch-owned) casinos, protesters are chanting "let the rich pay!". It was organised by a small leftist organisation, whose leader is actually an opposition MP.

Anyways, you can see a bald gentleman -allegedly head of security- trying to force his way in despite the MP telling him he can get around them on the side. There is a tussle, then the security guy pulls the MP out of the crowd (around the 50 second mark), they face off for a second, and then a couple of police officers who had been standing ildly take the MP off him, while he is free to go back to the crowd, although after he removed the leader he just walks around the crowd and into the building.

The MP told the press that the police charged him with abusing the right to protest, and he has conceded his immunity as MP. He is not aware of any charges against the security guy charging a group of protesters standing there on a pre-approved protest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 06:26:03 AM
Price cap on petrol (instituted months before the war) is really starting to bite, hundreds of petrol stations around the country are closed and scenes of the recent Great British Fuel Panic are becoming commonplace in Hungary as people queue endlessly for the price-capped (95) petrol. I think non-capped premium petrol is still available but this is Eastern Europe, a penny saved is a great victory worth endless time and energy spent.

There is also growing lack of other price-capped products most notably sugar. I think the only thing saving the country from Venezuelaisation is its EU membership.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 07:08:12 AM
EU members openly linked a vote on a joint loan to Ukraine with approving a big bunch of grants (reconstruction grants, I think) to Hungary. Everyone voted in favour of the Ukraine loan except Hungary who vetoed it. They'd rather give up on massive amounts of money rather than make it easy for the EU to fund Ukraine's efforts. Fucking traitors.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on December 06, 2022, 07:56:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 07:08:12 AMEU members openly linked a vote on a joint loan to Ukraine with approving a big bunch of grants (reconstruction grants, I think) to Hungary. Everyone voted in favour of the Ukraine loan except Hungary who vetoed it. They'd rather give up on massive amounts of money rather than make it easy for the EU to fund Ukraine's efforts. Fucking traitors.

Smart move from Europe no? Playing orban at his own game.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 08:04:29 AM
Quote from: Josquius on December 06, 2022, 07:56:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 07:08:12 AMEU members openly linked a vote on a joint loan to Ukraine with approving a big bunch of grants (reconstruction grants, I think) to Hungary. Everyone voted in favour of the Ukraine loan except Hungary who vetoed it. They'd rather give up on massive amounts of money rather than make it easy for the EU to fund Ukraine's efforts. Fucking traitors.

Smart move from Europe no? Playing orban at his own game.

Definitely, Europe clearly needs to strangle this regime. But its shocking that with the Hungarian economy in a terrible shape, they'd rather lose all that money rather than skip on sabotaging anti-Russia efforts. It shows the extent to which Orban is Putin's puppet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 06, 2022, 08:32:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 07:08:12 AMEU members openly linked a vote on a joint loan to Ukraine with approving a big bunch of grants (reconstruction grants, I think) to Hungary. Everyone voted in favour of the Ukraine loan except Hungary who vetoed it. They'd rather give up on massive amounts of money rather than make it easy for the EU to fund Ukraine's efforts. Fucking traitors.
That's shifted, probably sensibly (it was also blocking the EU implementing the global deal on minimum taxation). The proposed Ukraine aid required unanimity so Hungary was the one linking it.

The council have now asked the Commission to prepare an alternative legal/financial "modality" for aid to Ukraine that doesn't require unanimity, but that will take time.

There's also been ping-pong over the suspension of EU funds to Hungary, basically because it looks increasingly like there aren't the votes to endorse the Commission's assessment on rule of law that would freeze funds. There's enough CEE countries plus Italy willing to vote against that it's not clear it would get through QMV. So EcoFin have also asked the Commission to prepare another assessment and to lower the amount of suspended cohesion funds.

On the upside it's likely that Ukrainian aid (and the tax deal) will get unlocked, but it also looks like the Commission will try to block less funding from Hungary and take a more benign view of Orban's "rule of law" reforms - which from what I've read are a bit Potemkin. I think member states/the council either still don't really get what they're dealing with in Hungary or have decided it's too hard and don't care enough
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 08:42:01 AM
They are not a bit Potemkin they are entirely Potemkin. It is a ridiculous notion to ask an autocracy to weaken itself. Any real return of independent oversight on corruption suspicions and charges would destroy the very fabric of Orban's regime. He will never, ever, introduce meaningful reforms which would even weaken -let alone destroy- his supremacy.

I can't believe EU politicians cannot see this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 06, 2022, 09:45:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 08:42:01 AMThey are not a bit Potemkin they are entirely Potemkin. It is a ridiculous notion to ask an autocracy to weaken itself. Any real return of independent oversight on corruption suspicions and charges would destroy the very fabric of Orban's regime. He will never, ever, introduce meaningful reforms which would even weaken -let alone destroy- his supremacy.

I can't believe EU politicians cannot see this.
I think some don't want the Commission doing reports on them and their internal practices for conditionality - I think that's the Italy plus CEE block.

Sadly I think as long as Hungary is able to keep tying decisions on this to important issues that other member states care about but require unanimity - Ukraine aid, global tax deals etc - then other states will not let the agenda they care about fail if that's necessary to block funds to Hungary.

At some point I hope the logjam breaks in one way or other but I think those are the dynamics. I don't think it's that they're not aware. I also think it's a massive block on the EU ever wanting to re-open the treaties while Orban's around. I think there's already a massive reluctance following the French and Dutch votes on the constitution of doing any treaty work that would require a referendum, I think added to that, now, is a desire to not give Orban another veto point that he can leverage.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 04:50:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 06, 2022, 06:26:03 AMPrice cap on petrol (instituted months before the war) is really starting to bite, hundreds of petrol stations around the country are closed and scenes of the recent Great British Fuel Panic are becoming commonplace in Hungary as people queue endlessly for the price-capped (95) petrol. I think non-capped premium petrol is still available but this is Eastern Europe, a penny saved is a great victory worth endless time and energy spent.

There is also growing lack of other price-capped products most notably sugar. I think the only thing saving the country from Venezuelaisation is its EU membership.

And now very suddenly, in a 22:30 press conference by Orban's spokeperson and the president of the Hungarian oil company, they have announced that fuel supply cannot be maintained without imports therefore the fuel price cap is over as of 23:00 today.  :D

They are of course blaming the fresh sanctions on Russia and the "fuel crisis" it is creating across Europe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 15, 2022, 04:56:46 AM
(Deutsche) Telekom's Christmas ad which aired in countries around Hungary but NOT in Hungary because it features an overworked teacher, and Telekom did not want to do "political commentary" since a good (but not huge) number of teachers have been protesting and striking for better conditions:
https://fb.watch/hqG82dU74k/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 13, 2023, 04:05:50 AM
The latest scandal that is bound to die off without any negative consequence to Orban in a matter of weeks after at most a protest or two by a few hundred middle class Budapestians is that Hungarian universities have been kicked out of the Erasmus program.

Apparently there have been many warnings by the EU about this, which apparently was approached by the government the same way the British government approached the NI Protocol: "surely they won't have the balls to actually hold us to this".

The issue is that a year or two ago Orban's people reorganised how universities are managed. Each of them have been "outsourced" into "foundations" which are actually much more like feudal fiefdoms granted to government ministers and other people who are not important or trustworthy enough to be made proper rich but still need to be rewarded with something sizeable. These leading politicians have been put in charge of the "foundation" board of directors responsible for spending university budgets, and as they do everywhere else, I am sure they started syphoning away EU grants to their henchmen's benefits. The EU's warnings have been ignored and now that the ban is in effect members of government feign surprise and outrage over "Brussels" "taking it out" on "children".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 01, 2023, 08:51:19 AM
It's been a while since the last Hungarian's government nefarious act, I've had to go back several pages for this thread.  :P

QuoteHungary links Nato vote and EU money in quid pro quo

Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán's MPs are going to Finland and Sweden on a mission to claw back EU money in return for Nato "favours".

That was the impression created by Orbán's top diplomat in a Facebook post this week.

"How can a country [Sweden] expect a favour [Nato ratification] from us when its politicians continually and repeatedly spread lies about Hungary?," Hungarian foreign minister Peter Szijjártó said after meeting his Swedish counterpart, Tobias Billström, in Stockholm on Monday (27 February).

"How can they [Finland and Sweden] expect speedy and fair decisions when, during the recent period, all we were hearing is there's no democracy in Hungary, the rule of law is not guaranteed in Hungary [...]," Szijjártó went on.

The minister's words amounted to "obvious blackmail" of the Nordic states and wider EU to unfreeze billions being held back on grounds of Orbán's abuse of rule of law in Hungary, for pundits such as Péter Krekó from the Political Capital think-tank in Budapest.

And Szijjártó's statement came as MPs from Orbán's ruling Fidesz party prepared to travel to Nordic capitals, lending a "transactional" agenda to their trip, Krekó said.

Fidesz has so far named only foreign-affairs committee chairman Zsolt Németh and parliament deputy-speaker Csaba Hende as among those going.

Nemeth is known for being more pro-Nato and Russia-critical than Orbán, rather than a loyalist insider.

Hende is a former defence minister who renegotiated a major Hungarian fighter-jet deal with Sweden.

It remains to be seen what they can bring back from their Nordic tour.

But in any case, they'll have to go quickly to report in time for the Hungarian parliament's Nato ratification vote — due no later than 21 March.

They also have no mandate on paper and while Szijjártó said they might meet Nordic government MPs, the Finnish and Swedish foreign ministries declined to tell EUobserver who the Hungarians might speak to.

The audacity of Orbán's Nato-EU gambit aside, the Fidesz mission was "quite illogical" in protocol terms, Krekó added.

It was "strange", said Ágnes Vadai, the shadow defence minister from the opposition Democratic Coalition party.

"There's no precedent in Hungary for the government to send a one-party parliamentary delegation of this type, so we are entering uncharted waters," she said.

Orbán's irregular behaviour made Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan look classy by comparison, she indicated.

Erdoğan also made unpalatable demands of Finland and Sweden in return for Nato ratification, Vadai said — but at least Turkey wrote them down in a trilateral memorandum, which created ministerial and technical-level talks to resolve issues.

"To make yourself the skunk at the lawn-party in both the EU and Nato at the same time is a weird kind of strategy," Nick Witney from the European Council on Foreign Relations, a London-based think-tank, said on Orbán's game.

The Hungarian parliament will hold a plenary debate on Nato on Wednesday, giving ruling coalition MPs an opportunity to clarify what's going on with the Nato process.

The Turkish-Finnish-Swedish talks will next take place on 9 March — the same day Orbán's MPs might first fly north, according to reports.

All 28 other Nato members have ratified Finnish and Swedish accession.

Nato secretary general Jens Stoltenberg also met Finnish prime minister Sanna Marin on Tuesday to show support for enlargement.

Neither had been briefed by Hungary on the reasons for its ratification delays, they told press.

But amid the swirling uncertainties, Vadai, Krekó, and other Orbán-watchers were sure that if Turkey, Finland, and Sweden strike a deal, then the Hungarian leader wouldn't have the brass neck to stand up against Nato on his own.

"It's great political theatre and good to leave it to the parliamentarians to hold things up while the [Hungarian] government position is still to ratify," said Jamie Shea, a former senior Nato official who teaches war studies at Exter University in the UK.

"But Hungary doesn't want to be the last and if Turkey starts to move I am sure Budapest will speed things up," Shea said.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 01, 2023, 10:13:40 AM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/BKe2ShE7ERVuPx3QTTKpoYsguPoyZOk-vA3omdBih4Z08To3ydPpqJ4YRGkaeRyeKhr9OvE_0os56ADBSGNI3mbLILRHH7fpJqAb6uFuRbdYmalv9sNhAoSH6e8Y7mH5z8TuL27_jMojFhaqvhjRfk9uGaC9w8_WisUnLVbN5obx6iFCBcnqhtTnyvxqix0N8NefB_RfyLNClpaPGtjBNI2Yxv0)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 01, 2023, 11:18:58 AM
One thing I don't get is why Orban would persist in a pro-Russian policy even when it has become pretty evident this war is not going to have a positive outcome for Russia. It seems like this would be a perfect time to cynically switch to a pro-western position and lap up all the goodies that would be tossed his way.  He has 100% control of the Hungarian media, he can do whatever he wants and spin it however he wants and all his supporters would accept it.

I guess he is just ideologically committed to this path.

Or he just wants to honor Hungary's 200 year old tradition of always being on the losing side of every international conflict.

I mean Russia might win this war but it will so dearly purchased that Russia will be a shadow of its pre-2022 self.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on March 01, 2023, 11:47:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 01, 2023, 11:18:58 AMOne thing I don't get is why Orban would persist in a pro-Russian policy even when it has become pretty evident this war is not going to have a positive outcome for Russia. It seems like this would be a perfect time to cynically switch to a pro-western position and lap up all the goodies that would be tossed his way.  He has 100% control of the Hungarian media, he can do whatever he wants and spin it however he wants and all his supporters would accept it.

I guess he is just ideologically committed to this path.

Or he just wants to honor Hungary's 200 year old tradition of always being on the losing side of every international conflict.

I mean Russia might win this war but it will so dearly purchased that Russia will be a shadow of its pre-2022 self.
Russia probably have something on him personally.
This isn't about whats best for Hungary. Its about his own power and wealth.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 01, 2023, 12:40:58 PM
I would agree with Josq as that's the only rational explanation left, but what could it be? He is way past even Trump in what he is able to make his followers swallow, I cannot imagine what Russian blackmail material would be worth all this for him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 01, 2023, 12:45:47 PM
It may not be super egregious. As long as it's enough that it has a reasonable chance to be usable by someone - whether an internal rival or some sort of opposition - as a lever to replace Orban at the top, it's enough of a threat.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on March 01, 2023, 01:14:41 PM
Maybe he also deathly afraid of polonium?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PDH on March 01, 2023, 05:17:38 PM
Maybe he is just an super egotistical douche?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on March 01, 2023, 05:20:43 PM
He can be both.  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 02, 2023, 07:31:36 AM
Sadly I haven't seen an English summary of it, but Orban gave an interview to the Swiss Weltwoche paper, where he among other things explained how he understands why Putin had sleepless nights due to NATO, and how a Russian defeat is such a terrible and worst possible outcome that he can't even bear to entertain it.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 02, 2023, 07:48:10 AM
Whatever else he is Putin did a very good job of paying off western politicians and parties.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 03, 2023, 09:56:47 AM
So the husband of the country's President (who is, needless to say, a completely powerless stamping machine at this stage of Orban's autocracy) has finished his 8 weeks basic training as a professional soldier in the army.

And has been promoted immediately to lieutenant-colonel.

Incidentally a lot of officers were sacked a month or two ago on the basis of "introducing a younger cadre of officers". Which was followed by a call by the army last week that retired officers are welcome to come back.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 03, 2023, 10:54:06 AM
It would be shocking if retired officers were welcomed back on the basis of the political affiliation and willingness to play ball with Orban's political machine....
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 03, 2023, 11:46:03 AM
Indeed. I wager that at this stage the army had to be one of the very last places of (relative) power where people were not in position due to the grace of Orban. Now that's gone as well. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 03, 2023, 11:49:20 AM
What was the likelihood of a military coup anyway? He's probably running out of positions to reward cronies with, so military it is.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 03, 2023, 11:52:02 AM
Quote from: HVC on March 03, 2023, 11:49:20 AMWhat was the likelihood of a military coup anyway? He's probably running out of positions to reward cronies with, so military it is.

Zero chance. Yes, likely the only places left to reward people with.

But also, having to be a feudal vassal of Orban is an important thing. Years ago he forfeit a ton of grant money from Norway because a small portion of it would have gone to Hungarian NGOs directly instead of him having final say on what they are spent on.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 06, 2023, 05:07:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 01, 2023, 12:40:58 PMI would agree with Josq as that's the only rational explanation left, but what could it be? He is way past even Trump in what he is able to make his followers swallow, I cannot imagine what Russian blackmail material would be worth all this for him.
Listened to a podcast by a Russian specialist who'd just been in Budapest - generally noted that (and he wasn't original in this) the similarities of Orban with Putin circa 2007. But on Russia he said he didn't get the sense Orban was pro-Putin or pro-Russia, but rather just pro-Orban. The analogy he had which I thought was really interesting because I'd not heard it before was with Lukashenko. That, basically, Lukashenko always tried to play a double game with the West and Russia. But ultimately when it came down to it he sided with Russia (but not the point of getting properly involved) because what other option did he have.

He thought there was a similar thing with Orban noting that actually despite all the talk from Hungary, they go along with EU sanctions rather than using their veto - at worst they will (like, occasionally, Belgium and Ireland) abstain on Ukraine measures - because Orban knows who's bankrolling his state/politics.

He added that the Russian perspective on Orban (and he's not been able to visit Russia since 2022) is not that he's their man or that he's a useful idiot, but that he's a "useful cynic".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 06, 2023, 12:20:15 PM
That seems pretty plausible to me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2023, 01:11:01 PM
So there was this ridiculous theatre where the Fidesz "parliamentary faction" "challenged" Orban ( :lmfao: ) over agreeing to Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

So to "address concerns" a delegation was assembled of some semi-prominent Fidesz people (almost exclusively "moderates" who probably needed some good old public humiliation before they forget they are garbage) and sent to the two countries to discuss... stuff.

From the little attention I paid, they had a rather frosty reception in Finland, but Sweden was more willing to assist to the theatrics and treat them seriously.

For which they have received their due reward when the Parliament -in close synch with Turkey- announced that they'll vote only on Finland's membership for now (11 April I think).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 17, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
Is NATO like the EU and lacks a means of expulsion? more alliances and treaties need expulsion pathways, even if only to use the threat as a stick.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2023, 01:24:53 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 17, 2023, 01:16:52 PMIs NATO like the EU and lakes a means of expulsion? more alliances and treaties need expulsion pathways, even if only to use the threat as a stick.
I'm not sure with NATO.

The purpose of NATO is mutual defence - an attack on one member is an attack on all. I worry that even a narrow, tightly drafted expulsion mechanism could be perceived as undermining that.

Edit: Also NATO doesn't have anything like the democratic value bit that the EU does.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tonitrus on March 17, 2023, 01:29:25 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 17, 2023, 01:16:52 PMIs NATO like the EU and lakes a means of expulsion? more alliances and treaties need expulsion pathways, even if only to use the threat as a stick.

The treaty is not a very long read: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 05:18:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2023, 01:24:53 PMThe purpose of NATO is mutual defence - an attack on one member is an attack on all. I worry that even a narrow, tightly drafted expulsion mechanism could be perceived as undermining that.

Well sure, getting kicked out undermines their membership rights.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 05:18:03 PMWell sure, getting kicked out undermines their membership rights.
Yeah - but my thought is if there's an expulsion mechanism doesn't it change the calculation for an enemy too?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 05:24:32 PMYeah - but my thought is if there's an expulsion mechanism doesn't it change the calculation for an enemy too?

Elaborez s'il vous plait.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 05:39:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 05:30:08 PMElaborez s'il vous plait.
I think an advatnage of NATO is that unless you leave, then during a crisis there isn't an out. You are locked on a path that is ultimately determined by the country that is under attack/wanting to activate Article 5.

With an expulsion mechanism there is a turning you can take and it stops being simply a question of whether each country remains committed to NATO and would respond. There's an additional layer of how does the rest of NATO feel about that country?

For example, right now, if there was an expulsion mechanism (and obviously loads of other context and specifics) - but if Turkey were attacked I'm not sure that there wouldn't be a push to just expel them. I think it could undermine the credibility of NATO across NATO and actually, possibly, introduce an element of risk in (for want of a better phrase) the NATO periphery.

Obviously countries are free and sovereign and can leave any time, but I think NATO is safer and more credible if it doesn't have an ejector seat that everyone else can pull.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 18, 2023, 06:28:30 PM
Couldn't you just just add the clause no expulsion once article 5 is triggered?


*edit* In the hypothetical timetine I mean
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 06:36:27 PM
You're one devious fuck Shelf.  I hadn't even considered that.

But it would still take a majority, or more likely a supermajority to expel a country.  I don't think that would weigh very heavily on a potential invader's mind.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 06:39:30 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 18, 2023, 06:28:30 PMCouldn't you just just add the clause no expulsion once article 5 is triggered?


*edit* In the hypothetical timetine I mean
Right - but I think there you're just expanding the risk and maybe making it even easier for an opponent of NATO. They could get what they want just through brinksmanship and massing troops on borders.

If countries would be open to using an expulsion mechanism after Article 5 then I think they'd just take move that decision forward in a crisis so they can take it before. It shifts the time but I don't think it changes the risk.

And frankly even with Hungary, I think there's a bit of a concept creep about what NATO's for. It's not about advancing our values, or democracy - it's a mutual defence pact. Even with its awful government is there any real belief that in the event of an attack on Hungary - an EU member state - we wouldn't all have to intervene anyway? It's why the typical order is NATO membership first, then EU membership. What's the point of kicking them out?

If we'd be willing and possibly feel we have to defend them anyway then it makes sense to me that they'd be in NATO. If there's an applicant we wouldn't be willing to defend with our own troops, then they shouldn't be in NATO.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 06:42:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 06:36:27 PMYou're one devious fuck Shelf.  I hadn't even considered that.

But it would still take a majority, or more likely a supermajority to expel a country.  I don't think that would weigh very heavily on a potential invader's mind.
I agree it's unlikely - but I think it's a factor and definitely one that Russia or other opponents would think about My general view is if you build in mechanisms like, say, expulsion from NATO or a state of emergency/exception then I think you should expect that they will be used at some point however many hurdles you include.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 07:04:13 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 06:39:30 PMAnd frankly even with Hungary, I think there's a bit of a concept creep about what NATO's for. It's not about advancing our values, or democracy - it's a mutual defence pact. Even with its awful government is there any real belief that in the event of an attack on Hungary - an EU member state - we wouldn't all have to intervene anyway? It's why the typical order is NATO membership first, then EU membership. What's the point of kicking them out?

To stop them from barring future members.  So they don't sell tech to the bad guys.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 07:15:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 07:04:13 PMTo stop them from barring future members.  So they don't sell tech to the bad guys.
I think you can still pick and choose who you sell tech to even within NATO and I absolutely don't think you cc Hungary into everything. If Greece and Turkey can both be in NATO then I think most countries can with Hungary :lol:

On future members, let's see them do it first. I've said before that Orban talks very loudly about how awful EU sanctions are but, when it comes to a vote (where they have a veto), they go along or at worst abstain (and normally they only abstain if another country does). My suspicion is that they're saying what they are about Sweden because Turkey is standing in the way of membership - if we can square Turkey I suspect Hungary's will talk a lot about how awful it is and then go along.

I think Orban is awful domestically. I think internationally he talks a lot - if there's such a thing as vice signalling it's Orban's posturing - but is practically very aware that Hungary's a small-ish country that's reliant on the EU and West generally and doesn't actually ever do anything that puts that at risk. And whatever Orban does or says, if Serbia picked a fight, then practically speaking we would side with Hungary. So it makes sense to me that our formal alliance structure reflects that reality.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on March 18, 2023, 08:04:23 PM
The current Hungary problem is temporary anyway. Hungary's leader will not always be a Putin stooge. Like in the USA, leaders change. We only need to be patient.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 23, 2023, 11:45:40 AM
Tweeted by Orban today:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr6PXFlXsAAmTGb?format=jpg&name=large)

A good Hungarian is an asexual Hungarian!  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2023, 12:17:35 PM
So what kind of health troubles that gargantuan belly could indicate?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on March 23, 2023, 12:45:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2023, 05:39:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2023, 05:30:08 PMElaborez s'il vous plait.
I think an advatnage of NATO is that unless you leave, then during a crisis there isn't an out. You are locked on a path that is ultimately determined by the country that is under attack/wanting to activate Article 5.

With an expulsion mechanism there is a turning you can take and it stops being simply a question of whether each country remains committed to NATO and would respond. There's an additional layer of how does the rest of NATO feel about that country?

For example, right now, if there was an expulsion mechanism (and obviously loads of other context and specifics) - but if Turkey were attacked I'm not sure that there wouldn't be a push to just expel them. I think it could undermine the credibility of NATO across NATO and actually, possibly, introduce an element of risk in (for want of a better phrase) the NATO periphery.

Obviously countries are free and sovereign and can leave any time, but I think NATO is safer and more credible if it doesn't have an ejector seat that everyone else can pull.

But notwithstanding NATO and Article 5 there's nothing that actually compels a member country to activate their military...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 23, 2023, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2023, 11:45:40 AMTweeted by Orban today:
A good Hungarian is an asexual Hungarian!  :ph34r:
Yeah I did not have Orban coming out in favour of gender anarchism - but here we are :lol:

QuoteBut notwithstanding NATO and Article 5 there's nothing that actually compels a member country to activate their military...
Yeah - I think that's always definitely in the balance from NATO's opponents and the reality is you can't really compel any state to actually do anything. And ultimately what we actually mean is what will America do.

But we're seeing Hungary's normal game play out now. When Turkey was threatening a veto Hungary was saying also going to try and extract for their support. Now Hungary's position is that they will approve Finland but are holding out on Sweden (announced about a week after Turkey having gained nothing).

There are real problems and issues with Orban - I think his domestic policy and the way he's inspiring sections of the American right. On the international stage, he's just the guy with a big mouth who stands behind the bully. 11 EU sanctions packages - not one veto; now on NATO, just mirroring Turkey and hoping people will take him seriously enough to give him some concessions.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on March 24, 2023, 03:19:36 AM
Hungary actively wants a declining birth rate? :unsure:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 10:29:34 AM
Strange, a calvinist such as Orban should agree with the protty puritanic Anglos triggered by the word sex, so much they replaced it by gender (best used for grammar IMO).

 :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2023, 11:03:55 AM
He might be calvinist but he much prefers attending Catholic services, there's more pomp, I am guessing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 11:19:59 AM
He was raised as a Catholic but converted to Calvinism.

I guess he is hedging his bets.  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 28, 2023, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 11:19:59 AMHe was raised as a Catholic but converted to Calvinism.

I guess he is hedging his bets.  :D

Man, he checks off all the bad boxes


:P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 28, 2023, 11:24:33 AM
Yeah - I mean imagine choosing Calvinism :weep: :bleeding: (I suppose from a Calvinist perspective, you don't...)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: HVC on March 28, 2023, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 11:19:59 AMHe was raised as a Catholic but converted to Calvinism.

I guess he is hedging his bets.  :D

Man, he checks off all the bad boxes


:P

Sayeth the one descending from crypto-Moor/Jewish converts.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 28, 2023, 11:25:40 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: HVC on March 28, 2023, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 28, 2023, 11:19:59 AMHe was raised as a Catholic but converted to Calvinism.

I guess he is hedging his bets.  :D

Man, he checks off all the bad boxes


:P

Sayeth the one descending from crypto-Moor/Jewish converts.  :P

Pfft, they got beat into Catholicism long ago :P ain't no proties in my lineage... maybe some commies :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 28, 2023, 01:35:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 28, 2023, 11:24:33 AMYeah - I mean imagine choosing Calvinism :weep: :bleeding: (I suppose from a Calvinist perspective, you don't...)

 ^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Legbiter on March 28, 2023, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 28, 2023, 11:24:33 AMYeah - I mean imagine choosing Calvinism :weep: :bleeding: (I suppose from a Calvinist perspective, you don't...)

:lol:

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2023, 05:40:20 PM
My father's family was Calvinist so careful :p

My mother's was Catholic though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 28, 2023, 05:44:22 PM
Were Hussites Calvinists?  I thought they were pre-Calvin.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2023, 04:46:52 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 28, 2023, 05:44:22 PMWere Hussites Calvinists?  I thought they were pre-Calvin.

Hussites were proto-protestants. They predate Luther. And they were not from Hungary anyway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2023, 06:45:17 AM
Pro tip: do not mistaken Hungarians with Czechs. Especially not in Czechia, but it is not particularly recommended in Hungary either.  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 29, 2023, 09:21:50 AM
IIRC Calvinism was quite strong in the Ottoman part of Hungary, and generally the Ottomans didn't seem really bothered by Protestantism of any flavor unlike in Royal Hungary.

As far as Hussites and Hungarians...the only experience the Hungarians had with Hussites was killing them in the Hussite Wars.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 29, 2023, 10:03:44 AM
Needs Slovaks to be added to the Czech(oslovak) mix, both ethnic Slovaks and Slovak citizens of Hungarian ethnicity AND calvinist religion, unlikely (see where Royal Hungary was situated), for fun.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2023, 05:36:53 AM
Rumour is spreading more and more that the US is going to sanction Hungarian individuals, probably over their link of the spynest of a "bank" Russia planted there and other countries years ago, but which has then have had to close down everywhere but Hungary.

Long fucking overdue, so I hope its true.

Meanwhile the walking turd disguising as the country's Foreign Minister just had his 4th visit to Moscow since the outbreak of the war last year, this time signing a new gas deal (who knows how much that's going to cost the country, they were already paying well above market price with the previous one) and doing something around the planned new nuclear plant. On the latter he said "despite all the EU's efforts to sabotage it" it's gonna' get built.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on April 12, 2023, 06:29:07 AM
Hey Tamas, any words on Hungary about Orban's prefered GOP candidate for the 2024 elections?

QuoteViktor Orbán's support for Trump seems to wane as ally meets with DeSantis
Hungarian PM previously backed Trump but meetings between Katalin Novák and DeSantis camp suggest he's hedging his bets

(...)

Katalin Novák, the Hungarian president, met DeSantis last month. She also met DeSantis' wife, Casey DeSantis, and Republican mega-donor Thomas Péterffy, who has announced he would not be backing Trump's 2024 presidential candidacy. The Hungarian-born billionaire has called DeSantis his "favorite man" and donated $570,000 to his campaign in 2022, according to the campaign finance watchdog OpenSecrets.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2023, 08:55:31 AM
Haven't heard of that bet-hedging but I have seen Orban's pro-Trump tweets and whatnot reported (his tweets as in his staff's tweets on his account).

Makes perfect sense to hedge his bets I guess.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 12, 2023, 10:36:35 AM
Hungarian born billionaire getting involved in US politics? I thought Republicans hate such "globalists" :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2023, 10:54:48 AM
The US ambassador to Hungary has announced the sanctions on a press conference, as expected it concerns the Russian spy bank and its Hungarian chairman.

Also, fun fact: the ambassador is called Pressman. He replaced his predecessor a year ago, who was called Goodfriend.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 12, 2023, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 12, 2023, 10:36:35 AMHungarian born billionaire getting involved in US politics? I thought Republicans hate such "globalists" :P

Well we all know only Jews are globalists.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 12, 2023, 11:06:35 AM
My bad -_-
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Legbiter on April 14, 2023, 10:31:55 AM
Seems the morons have exhausted US patience.

QuoteA bipartisan group in Congress is drafting US sanctions that would target leading Hungarian political figures tied to the Orbán government, as the relationship between the two countries continues to spiral downwards.

The sanctions bill would name former officials and government supporters, mostly affiliated with the Fidesz party of the prime minister, Viktor Orbán.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/13/viktor-orbans-political-allies-in-hungary-in-sights-of-us-sanctions?CMP=twt_a-world_b-gdnworld (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/13/viktor-orbans-political-allies-in-hungary-in-sights-of-us-sanctions?CMP=twt_a-world_b-gdnworld)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 14, 2023, 04:01:54 PM
Good. I saw a rumour that Hungary will quietly accept air transfers of military equipment to Ukraine through their air space which if true means they are scared and trying to patch things up without having to abandon the pro-Putin pose.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on April 14, 2023, 08:22:56 PM
Hungary itself doesn't get any money from he US right? So I guess a lot of rich Hungarians have not so clean money sitting in the states.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 15, 2023, 12:57:56 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 14, 2023, 10:31:55 AMSeems the morons have exhausted US patience.

QuoteA bipartisan group in Congress is drafting US sanctions that would target leading Hungarian political figures tied to the Orbán government, as the relationship between the two countries continues to spiral downwards.

The sanctions bill would name former officials and government supporters, mostly affiliated with the Fidesz party of the prime minister, Viktor Orbán.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/13/viktor-orbans-political-allies-in-hungary-in-sights-of-us-sanctions?CMP=twt_a-world_b-gdnworld (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/13/viktor-orbans-political-allies-in-hungary-in-sights-of-us-sanctions?CMP=twt_a-world_b-gdnworld)

Good. The setup of the EU was never designed for this situation, so US sanctions help, as the EU itself is bsrely able to do anything as long as Poland protects Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2023, 02:02:29 AM
Bailed you boys out on FIFA too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 15, 2023, 09:49:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2023, 02:02:29 AMBailed you boys out on FIFA too.

Infantino is such an improvement.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Legbiter on April 15, 2023, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 14, 2023, 04:01:54 PMGood. I saw a rumour that Hungary will quietly accept air transfers of military equipment to Ukraine through their air space which if true means they are scared and trying to patch things up without having to abandon the pro-Putin pose.

The Hungarians took a good hand and played it very badly. :hmm:  The Russians added them anyway to their 'unfriendly countries' list a couple months back. Hopefully nothing bad happens to the Turkstream pipeline in the next 15 years. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2023, 02:55:53 AM
I don't think a comment is necessary: https://twitter.com/PM_ViktorOrban/status/1650933227744272404?s=20

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on April 26, 2023, 03:33:50 AM
I feel bad for his mistress that night
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 04, 2023, 03:05:00 PM
Getting some mixed signals. "No gender?"  :hmm:

(https://preview.redd.it/6scvvpstawxa1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=dc6efaf725d36e78a158f08df8c7f23169f32c93)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 04, 2023, 03:10:44 PM
Everybody must stay in the same location they were born for their entire life. Nobody can have a gender. Nobody can fight a war.

Seems pretty straightforward  :hmm:

Kind of a radical vision for society.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:15:09 PM
Yeah, leave gender to grammar. Sex and sexuality are different.

 :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 04, 2023, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:15:09 PMYeah, leave gender to grammar. Sex and sexuality are different.

 :P

I don't see where he said sex and sexuality are the same but I am not familiar with every aspect of the radical social engineering Orban is interested in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2023, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:15:09 PMYeah, leave gender to grammar. Sex and sexuality are different.

 :P

I don't see where he said sex and sexuality are the same but I am not familiar with every aspect of the radical social engineering Orban is interested in.

A common confusion among puritans and/or protestants, which lead often to use of gender as a euphemism.
Guess what, Orban is a calvinist convert.  :P
More of a 19th century thing among prudes in France.

I remember seeing sometimes gender (not translated as genre) or gendérisme (sic) in French but it's no longer in use,  I think.  :hmm: 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 04, 2023, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:25:02 PMGuess what, Orban is a calvinist convert.  :P

What? Who would do such a thing?  :o
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:32:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2023, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:25:02 PMGuess what, Orban is a calvinist convert.  :P

What? Who would do such a thing?  :o
He did not do it, he was predestinated.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 04, 2023, 03:33:32 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2023, 03:32:07 PMHe did not do it, he was predestinated.  :lol:

 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 09, 2023, 07:34:49 AM
The newly appointed Chief of Staff of the Hungarian armed forces explained in an interview that regarding the government's "efforts for peace" people should consider Germany's invasion of Poland as an example. That "began as a local conflict" but because "nobody was willing to step up for peace" it "escalated into a global conflict".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2023, 12:46:11 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 09, 2023, 07:34:49 AMThe newly appointed Chief of Staff of the Hungarian armed forces explained in an interview that regarding the government's "efforts for peace" people should consider Germany's invasion of Poland as an example. That "began as a local conflict" but because "nobody was willing to step up for peace" it "escalated into a global conflict".

What the hell does he mean by that? And what exactly is the current government doing in their effort for peace?

If the Chief of Staff of the Hungarian Armed Forces thinks that we lacked people saying vague and meaningless platitudes in 1939, I can assure him there were in fact lots of those going around at the time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 09, 2023, 12:47:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 09, 2023, 07:34:49 AMThe newly appointed Chief of Staff of the Hungarian armed forces explained in an interview that regarding the government's "efforts for peace" people should consider Germany's invasion of Poland as an example. That "began as a local conflict" but because "nobody was willing to step up for peace" it "escalated into a global conflict".
<_< :hmm:

On his terms, Molotov and Ribbentrop were making terrific efforts for peace <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2023, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 09, 2023, 07:34:49 AMThe newly appointed Chief of Staff of the Hungarian armed forces explained in an interview that regarding the government's "efforts for peace" people should consider Germany's invasion of Poland as an example. That "began as a local conflict" but because "nobody was willing to step up for peace" it "escalated into a global conflict".


You got to find it depressing, even if you don't live in the country anymore. :(

When you talk to friends and family still in the country, do they drink the cool-aid, or are they simply cautious about what they say?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 09, 2023, 05:28:26 PM
A friend or two are lukewarm on Ukraine but the rest are as pro-Ukraine and anti-Fidesz as I am.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 12, 2023, 07:00:44 AM
Fairly robust response from Poland's ambassador, I understand the Hungarian ambassador to Poland has now apologised for the comment:
QuoteSzabolcs Panyi
@panyiszabolcs
Polish Ambassador to Hungary @SebastianKeciek protested in a letter to Gábor Böröndi, the Chief of the Hungarian Defence Forces General Staff:

"Dear General,

I was very surprised to read your statement regarding Poland made on May 9 this year in an interview with the state-run television news channel M1, in which the aggression of Nazi Germany against Poland in 1939 was called a "local war" that would not have escalated into World War II if peace talks had taken place early enough.
 
These words, which could be interpreted as an accusation of my country's escalation and complicity in causing a global conflict, are an unacceptable distortion of history for us and should not come from anyone's mouth, especially from the mouth of a representative of a country that is our close ally.

The outbreak of World War II was not brought about by the lack of peace talks with the aggressor, but by the policy of appeasement and concession to the successive demands of the Third Reich. Under the secret Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin divided spheres of influence and thus planned the partition of Poland. In accordance with this agreement, the troops of the Third Reich committed armed, unprovoked aggression against Poland on September 1, 1939, while on September 17 the defending Poland was attacked from the east by the troops of the Red Army - thus began the exodus of Poles, which lasted almost 6 years and claimed the lives of 6 million Polish citizens.

We must not allow the wrong-headed interchanging of victim with torturer. Poland was an indisputable victim of the criminal and planned actions of the Third Reich and the Soviet Union, and consequently of their allies.

Today, in the face of Russia's full-scale, unprovoked and illegal aggression against Ukraine, Europe should learn the lessons of World War II and stand in solidarity on the right side of history, on the side of the victim, not the aggressor. Only in this way can we bring about lasting peace in Europe. History should not be used to undermine our unity.
 
Let me take this opportunity to remind you, Mr. General, that Hungary in 1939, while formally in alliance with Germany, refused to help Berlin attack Poland. The then prime minister of the government of the Kingdom of Hungary, Count Pal Teleki, said: "I would sooner blow up our railroads than take part in an invasion of Poland." This reaction of a Hungarian politician will never be forgotten."

Polish source: https://gov.pl/web/wegry/list
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2023, 10:11:34 AM
Bravo
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 12, 2023, 10:28:00 AM
The Hungarian President (biological rubber stamping machine), in an effort to get the edge off of this, said historical debates should be left for historians.

It's funny how they don't realise the traumatic nature of WW2 for Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on May 12, 2023, 11:21:32 AM
I am unconvinced by the Hungarian President's argument.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on May 15, 2023, 04:09:10 PM
Interesting lengthy piece on the breakdown of Hungarian-Polish relations which seems largely sourced from the Polish side - and includes an appearance by the President:
https://vsquare.org/orban-kaczynski-novak-morawiecki-poland-hungary-russia-war-ukraine/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 16, 2023, 08:01:30 AM
One interesting -albeit I guess not really surprising- aspect of the Orban era is that while his oligarchs and lieutenants have received a carte blanche to rob EU, state, and local budgets dry -as long as they pay tribute to the monarch via a chain of feudal lords-, tax avoidance in the general economy has been made very hard, and modern technology has been introduced with surprising speed and efficiency to serve this goal.

Wireless connection of cash registers into tax authority servers has been introduced about a decade ago, resulting in clear improvement in tax income, and I was just reading that the next step will be street food vendors - they'll need to use an application to manage orders which will feed information real-time into tax authority servers.

Needless to say, while I am not against fighting tax avoidance, it is rather disgusting how on the top embezzlement and corruption is endemic (or as one pro-government journalist famously put it some years ago "what you call corruption is the very core idea behind this system"), but if you are a small-timer outside of the feudal network, you are squeezed for every last penny they can get out of you.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 19, 2023, 02:55:26 AM
An interesting recent thing is an apparent push by the government to have multiple large battery-making factories be build by foreign (and by that I mean Chinese) companies.

There have been protests and quite a bit of unrest about one the last couple of months (at the eastern parts, next to Debrecen) and as I understand the second one in largely the same area has also been approved.

This Debrecen one pissed the locals off (who in some way deserve it because they have been a staunch Fidesz bastion for 20 years now) because it is going to be a massive hit on the local water system and reserves. Essentially, as I understand, these factories have massive water requirements, and the area does not have excess water to spare, quite the very contrary. Analysts expect a major negative environmental impact from the huge factory. But, as it is normal in this regime, they are being ignored.

With Orban, it is impossible to say if he has a "strategic vision" of turning Hungary into a European center for EV batteries or -far more likely- the Chinese have a strategic vision of turning Hungary into their European center for EV battery assembly and storage and they are bribing Orban to achieve that goal.

EDIT: and the stats around this are indicative of general problems with treating EVs as the solution to climate change. The planned factory will have to use gas power for its massive energy needs, it is estimated that the factory will on its own produce double of what the city of Debrecen planned to be its total emissions by 2030.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 02:01:19 AM
As mentioned elsewhere it is a curious trend that the hard right is shifting away from insisting climate change isn't real to insisting on electric cars as the one size fits all solution.
That there's serious money to be made behind this explains much.

Iirc isn't Slovakia the major place there abouts for the car industry at the moment? Not totally impossible Hungary could be in with a shout.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 20, 2023, 03:20:56 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 02:01:19 AMAs mentioned elsewhere it is a curious trend that the hard right is shifting away from insisting climate change isn't real to insisting on electric cars as the one size fits all solution.
That there's serious money to be made behind this explains much.

Iirc isn't Slovakia the major place there abouts for the car industry at the moment? Not totally impossible Hungary could be in with a shout.

Slovakia could have a bigger car industry relative to its size but German car makers (plus Suzuki who has had a big factory there since the 90s) are a massive thing in Hungary as well. Essentially the economy goes the way of the German car industry.

So you could see why one would think getting in early and big on becoming the polluted industrial wasteland of the EV-era makes sense. Then again Orban has absolutely no problem destroying the future of the country in so many different ways, it's hard to imagine strategic thinking is the main motivation here.

For many people in the country it gives memories (well, read memories for  most at this stage) of the forced heavy-industry focus of the 1950s. There are few countries in Europe less suited for heavy industry than post-WW1 Hungary. But it was the political directive, so it had to be done (well, attempted at least) no matter how utterly wasteful and expensive it was.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 20, 2023, 03:47:45 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 02:01:19 AMAs mentioned elsewhere it is a curious trend that the hard right is shifting away from insisting climate change isn't real to insisting on electric cars as the one size fits all solution.
That there's serious money to be made behind this explains much.

Iirc isn't Slovakia the major place there abouts for the car industry at the moment? Not totally impossible Hungary could be in with a shout.

This is one of those times where I think you pulled this assertion straight from your ass.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 09:36:08 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 20, 2023, 03:47:45 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 02:01:19 AMAs mentioned elsewhere it is a curious trend that the hard right is shifting away from insisting climate change isn't real to insisting on electric cars as the one size fits all solution.
That there's serious money to be made behind this explains much.

Iirc isn't Slovakia the major place there abouts for the car industry at the moment? Not totally impossible Hungary could be in with a shout.

This is one of those times where I think you pulled this assertion straight from your ass.
Not really. I briefly worked in the auto industry. I remember a lot of parts manufacturers having plants in Slovakia. I can't remember the specifics of the how and why.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on May 22, 2023, 01:18:23 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 09:36:08 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 20, 2023, 03:47:45 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 02:01:19 AMAs mentioned elsewhere it is a curious trend that the hard right is shifting away from insisting climate change isn't real to insisting on electric cars as the one size fits all solution.
That there's serious money to be made behind this explains much.

Iirc isn't Slovakia the major place there abouts for the car industry at the moment? Not totally impossible Hungary could be in with a shout.

This is one of those times where I think you pulled this assertion straight from your ass.
Not really. I briefly worked in the auto industry. I remember a lot of parts manufacturers having plants in Slovakia. I can't remember the specifics of the how and why.

CEE as a whole were saw a lot of auto plants built there in the 2010s, I assume it's still the case. They have cheaper labor than Western Europe and are part of the Single Market.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2023, 01:21:03 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 20, 2023, 09:36:08 AMNot really. I briefly worked in the auto industry. I remember a lot of parts manufacturers having plants in Slovakia. I can't remember the specifics of the how and why.

Sorry, I meant the trend about hard right EV only solution.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2023, 05:42:45 AM
There is going to be an effective amnesty of arrested human traffickers in Hungary. A government spokeperson has effectively confirmed that it is done to spite the EU for not sending money. To be more precise "we are not receiving funding to help protect EU borders but we get punished if our prisons are overcrowded, so we are letting them go".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 01, 2023, 03:18:10 AM
As the latest indicator of Russification of Hungarian politics (as if the direction hasn't been obvious from around 2011), recently more than half a dozen far-righters sentenced for terrorism have been granted amnesty by the President.

Most notable is their group's leader, Budahazy, who has been a leading/martyr personality of the far right since the riots of 2006, and who left prison like this:

(https://rmx.news/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Gyorgy-Budahazy.jpg)

Him and his buddies were sentenced for their acts as part of their "Hunnia" group. Formed during the unrest of 2006 they wanted to forment further unrest and the collapse of the government (and the democratic system in general) so they did stuff like Molotov-cocktail attacks against the homes of members of the governing party (at the time the Socialists).

For me the only question is whether this amnesty is to prevent Budahazy from talking about Orban's role in 2006's chaos (there is no evidence but for me it seems very likely he was working his way toward a coup until a brutal police dispersion of his rally ended his hopes), or if he and his henchmen will be used in suppressing opposition demonstrations and the like.

The latter wouldn't be surprising, during smaller demonstrations (held on private property such as construction sites so there was legal pretext) it has been routine for police to stand aside while private security personnel would beat up protesters. So I am expecting "counter-protesters" to show up if any sizeable protests ever get started.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on June 01, 2023, 03:20:47 AM
You know what I find really depressing about this- that there are some people who will see this and won't think "Man that guy is sad" but rather "He's on a horse leaving prison. How fucking awesome. He's da man. That shows 'em"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 01, 2023, 02:31:46 PM
The Budapest police has been giving out Scotland Yard vibes lately. The ongoing (although I think decreasing in size) student protests for better pay and conditions for their teachers has been encountering increasing police pushback since they started visiting near Orban's office. So we have had the wonderful optics of high school students and younger being teargassed and such.

Then there was the Europa Leauge final in the city yesterday and the Sevilla fans wreaked havoc on the streets, with no police in sight.

But today some kids after the latest protest "loitering aimlessly" (to quote the police) have been... IDK how do you call it in English when a police officer stops you to check your identification papers?

Apparently there were at least twice as many policemen as protesters. I guess they kept them in reserve for this, that's why they let foreign hooligans ransack the city.

(https://assets.telex.hu/images/20230601/[email protected])
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2023, 06:59:47 AM
Although on Scotland Yard police in Britain don't use teargas or water cannons (or other "military style" equipment) - it's unlawful in Britain (but used in Northern Ireland). As mayor following the riots Boris Johnson famously bought some water cannon vans that weren't legally usable, Theresa May declined to change the law so Sadiq Khan had to sell them for scrap :bleeding:

Always makes a lot of European or Northern Irish policing of protests/riots looks extreme. But I'm not sure if the standard here of kettling, baton charges and riot shields is better?

It's also just the insanely disparate responses. My theory was always that they basically don't mind going in heavy against protests that are unlikely to offer much resistance (Sarah Everard) but are generally more hands off on protests that are large enough (or have enough men in them) to present a risk. That doesn't explain the Just Stop Oil response which seems daily, with the police basically leaving it to the public (not great) which seems particularly weird when you have police in Germany, say, conducting raids across the country on the German equivalent of Just Stop Oil on suspicion of "forming or backing a criminal group".

I feel like you can have an argument over hands off or strong policing of protests. But maybe worse than either is the UK police's arbitrary, who knows approach.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2023, 07:03:37 AM
I try to resist drawing conclusions because what do I know of policing, but it does give the optics of British police opting not to stand up to groups where they might face resistance that'd be bothersome to deal with (football hooligans, attention whore middle class climate protesters).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2023, 07:11:03 AM
By the way, some interesting tidbits regarding the student/teacher protests:

As I understand both in Romania and Czechia there have been much larger protests for the same reasons and with decidedly better results. Very clearly shows the apathy of Hungarian society. I mean, hell, on protests for teacher salaries, the vast majority of the crowd are students, not the teachers themselves.

Also after the election last year, education has been transferred under the Ministry of Interior (along with healthcare and a bunch of other stuff Orban doesn't give a toss about and have already been assigned there), led by a former high-ranked police officer who is almost certainly a major figure of the 90s organised crime world of the country.

And I guess his response to the teacher protests (and in some marginal cases, strikes) was quite predictable: they are introducing much stricter rules and processes for teachers to follow in terms of managing their working hours, and if I understand correctly, they'll be competing against each other within a school for performance review rankings and thus bonuses/salary bands, sort of like salesmen would. In other words, they are being punished for being uppity. But that does not have broken through their apathy.

The country is a lost cause.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2023, 07:26:54 AM
Yeah. It just feels very inconsistent. Although I would be really interested to see arguments on either side of the "military style" equipment/water cannons/tear gas v kettling, baton charges etc. My guess is that "military style" means you'll probably harm more people and with more collateral damage, but its likely that the actual level of harm is lower while baton charges etc will affect fewer individuals but is likely to cause them more harm? But I'm just guessing.

I'm not sure on hooliganism because from my experience football is generally pretty well policed. Though my experience is small - only a couple of games and Premier League (also the flat I ended up purchasing isn't next door to Millwall so I can't even comment on that :P). But obviously the Euro final was a disaster. The report on that has come out and is really grim - mainly because it could have been so much worse. From reading that it feels like the problem was that, despite many warnings, the police didn't anticipate a problem so they never actually had control. There were never enough police in the area to control a crowd of that size in a hands off or confrontational way. And I think the decision to not have fan zones dispersed around the city because of covid - which was vetoed by Hancock in health - despite it being safe enough to have people in a stadium was a huge mistake.

I've been on loads of protests and none of them have ever really had an issue with the police, although on almost every one they do end up taking away the Class War guys because they will inevitably try to smash in the windows of an estate agent at some point on the protest :lol:

But despite all the powers they have and all the panic of "protest being abolished" etc etc it seems as you say. They'll clear the vigil for Sarah Everard, or Republic protesters, but let the Just Stop Oil guys block roads with 20 people as if they were a protest of 20,000. It's very inconsistent.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on June 02, 2023, 07:32:07 AM
What are the implications for cops if the mess someone up in the uk? Are they liable? If so it could go a long way to explaining why they won't go after more dangerous groups. Not worth the legal headache.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2023, 07:50:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 02, 2023, 07:32:07 AMWhat are the implications for cops if the mess someone up in the uk? Are they liable? If so it could go a long way to explaining why they won't go after more dangerous groups. Not worth the legal headache.
I'm not an expert on this but I think there was a freedom of information that revealed police forces in England had settled something like £10 million per year of civil claims in the last four years. I think it's down in recent years. That doesn't include the legal cost so it's purely the compensation costs. That's also separate from making a complaint to the IOPC (which is basically a police ombudsman in England and Wales), they can't make financial awards but can rule on complaints about police misconduct.

From memory you can't sue the police for a failure/omission, but lots of police powers are based on reasonableness plus their procedures or when they have police powers. So you can sue them if they don't actually have the power in law to police you, if they don't follow the right procedure (especially stop and search), for assault if their use of force was beyond what was reasonably necessary, for wrongful arrest etc - all of that is police misconduct or brutality.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on June 02, 2023, 07:57:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2023, 07:50:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 02, 2023, 07:32:07 AMWhat are the implications for cops if the mess someone up in the uk? Are they liable? If so it could go a long way to explaining why they won't go after more dangerous groups. Not worth the legal headache.
I'm not an expert on this but I think there was a freedom of information that revealed police forces in England had settled something like £10 million per year of civil claims in the last four years. I think it's down in recent years. That doesn't include the legal cost so it's purely the compensation costs. That's also separate from making a complaint to the IOPC (which is basically a police ombudsman in England and Wales), they can't make financial awards but can rule on complaints about police misconduct.

From memory you can't sue the police for a failure/omission, but lots of police powers are based on reasonableness plus their procedures or when they have police powers. So you can sue them if they don't actually have the power in law to police you, if they don't follow the right procedure (especially stop and search), for assault if their use of force was beyond what was reasonably necessary, for wrongful arrest etc - all of that is police misconduct or brutality.


So if you push a Cop and he hits you with the ol' baton they could be sued for unnecessary force or brutality? Protester might not win, but it's still a pain for the force and officer. I can see where this leads, rightfully or wrongfully, to more engagement against a peaceful protest or one with less of a chance of getting violent. Leave the nutter oil people alone, and let the civilians pull them off the road (although I recommend trucks with cattle catchers :P ).

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
It might also explain the preference for baton charges etc v water cannons or tear gas or why the last two are basically illegal in GB.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2023, 09:47:42 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2023, 07:26:54 AMI've been on loads of protests and none of them have ever really had an issue with the police, although on almost every one they do end up taking away the Class War guys because they will inevitably try to smash in the windows of an estate agent at some point on the protest :lol:


 :wub:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2023, 02:13:16 PM
I had to look up kettling.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2023, 02:31:06 PM
You haven't been to a lot of protests.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on June 02, 2023, 02:36:18 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2023, 02:31:06 PMYou haven't been to a lot of protests.

I had to looking it up too. I would have thought of corralling, but that might be a NA term in the context (corralling animals)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2023, 02:52:45 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2023, 02:31:06 PMYou haven't been to a lot of protests.

I was taking language classes on the campus of Korea's third university during the daily protests to oust President Chun Doo Whan.  I've walked through and around hundreds of protests.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2023, 05:08:46 PM
... I should have added "recently".  :P It was tongue in cheek.

Kettling is by now a pretty standard form of police response, deployed especially, as noted, against targets which police feel are easier to deal with.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 15, 2023, 03:10:28 AM
https://www.budapesttimes.hu/hungary/orban-westerners-want-war-to-continue/

QuoteOrbán: Westerners want war to continue

The conflict in Ukraine will be drawn out because "westerners want the war to continue", Prime Minister Viktor Orbán said on Friday. Orbán told public radio that "the government has very different tasks, and Hungarians will have a very different future, depending on whether there is a war or there is no war".

"The proportion and number of pro-war supporters remains overwhelming and there are hardly any of us using the voice of peace," Orbán said. "We must be prepared that the war and sanctions will not disappear from our lives," he added. If it actually happened, "a large part of the economic troubles would be fixed".

Orbán said that in the current situation "we must bring down inflation . we discontinue certain measures and introduce others, whatever works we will keep".

He said the price monitoring system was very helpful in this regard and added that mandatory food discounts had also been introduced. "We can see that the inflation rate will decrease every month," he added.

He said a government meeting held in Sopronbanfalva, western Hungary, discussed ways to keep the war and illegal migrants away from Hungary and "protect families and pensioners from plans made by Brussels bureaucrats".

Orbán said some "great issues" were kept on the agenda that "could determine our fate for decades", citing energy supplies for the country in the next 10-20 years, ways to utilise Hungary's favourable geographical position, preserving the quality of Hungarian agricultural products and issues concerning the military force and demographics.

Meanwhile, the prime minister said the ongoing cabinet meeting was also focused on exploring the legal and political means available to prevent Brussels from implementing the plan on migrant quotas.

"If we obeyed Brussels, which we do not intend to do, we would be forced to build migrant ghettos in Hungary," he added
.

"There's another direct threat, and this one also comes from Brussels," the prime minister said. He said the EU had again put forward a proposal that would lead to Hungary having to scrap its price caps on energy. Yet on Thursday the cabinet discussed "how we're not going to scrap the utility price caps", and how Hungarian interests could be enforced in energy regulation "at home and also in Brussels", he added.

"These clever men sit in a big bubble in Brussels and they think that that they understand the world better than we do here, in Budapest or now in Sopron," he said.

Orbán said there was one more issue "which must be decided by all means" on Friday. A new waste management system has been introduced which would result in a significant disadvantage for Hungarian winemakers in the strong competition in Europe resulting from regulations affecting bottles.

He also said that when Ukrainians were fighting for the survival of their nation in the war, "they do not care about the rest of the world". "They can only look at the conflict through their own spectacles" which is normal but it means "we must keep our wits about it".

"If we did what the Ukrainian president is asking for, we'd be in the third world war," Orbán said.

If Ukraine was given NATO membership now, it would immediately mean a third world war "because it would mean that NATO is at war with Russia".

He said that a favourable decision was reached in the end, with the majority not wanting to take on the risk of war and Ukraine was therefore not allowed to join.

Orbán said Ukrainians' communication style was "undoubtedly unusual" considering that "when you are in trouble and ask for help, you should behave correctly". However, "Ukrainians are aggressive, making demands" while the people in Ukraine die by the hundreds and thousands on a daily basis, he added. The Ukrainians "are in great trouble, they face matters of life and death, and they see the world very differently from us", he said.

Orbán said it was important that "we should not accept the perspective through which they look at the world because if we accept it, then we will slip into the war". Those countries that supply weapons to Ukraine are already involved in the war, he said.

Although Ukrainians have not been admitted into NATO and the direct threat of world war has been avoided, "we have not progressed closer to peace even by an inch," he said. On the contrary, there is an escalation, with new and increasingly long-range weapons and effective explosives that the Ukrainians receive from western states, especially from the US, he said. "So the situation continues to be extremely dangerous," he said.

In the Christian world "where we belong" the most important issue, which Hungary also argues for, is ceasefire and peace talks. It is also important for Hungarians because the war is in a neighbouring country and "various escalations could reach Transcarpathia and then Hungary", he said.

Orbán said that he agreed with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that the United States could end the war in Ukraine with immediate effect. He added that nobody knew why this was not happening.

Ukraine has already lost it sovereignty, it has no money, no defence industry and no ability to manufacture military equipment, Orbán said. "It receives money from us also, mostly from the Americans" and also military equipment, he added.

If the US said that it wanted peace and the war must be stopped, there must be a ceasefire and talks should be started, it would happen the following day, Orbán said. "As to why the Americans don't want this, we did not get an answer even at the NATO summit," he said.

Concerning the economy, the prime minister said that though the government planned to bring inflation down to the single digits by the end of this year, that target could be reached "one to one-and-a-half months" earlier.

Inflation is "on the right path and a downward trajectory", he added.

Orbán also said the public utility fee cut scheme must be maintained by all means.

The scheme should not be considered purely as an energy issue, he added. "It's worth considering that the government supports every family with 181,000 forints, so the utility fee cut scheme is a matter of living standards for the middle class and those who are poorer", he said.

As regards migration, the prime minister said the only solution to the migrant crisis was if migrants were not allowed entry into Europe.

Summarising Hungary's position on the European Union's migration package, Orbán said: "No migration."

When it comes to the issue of migration, Hungary relies solely on its own experience, he said, adding that the reason why there were no migrants in the country was because the Hungarian model was working.

Some 330,000 illegal migrants were stopped at Europe's borders last year, 270,000 of whom were stopped on the Hungarian border, Orbán noted.

The prime minister noted the clashes between migrants and police at the Roszke border crossing in 2015 and how hundreds of thousands of migrants "marched across the country" and "invaded Budapest's train stations".

Only those migrants whose asylum applications are approved should be allowed to enter Europe, he said.

It is this Hungarian model that they now want to "tear down", but the government will protect the only successful border protection regime in Europe, Orbán said. "This is our country and only we can say who can enter Hungary, when and under what conditions," he added.

As long as there is a nationally minded government in power, there will not be any "migrant ghettos" in Hungary, the prime minister said.

He said that after the effort it took to solve the problem of closing the refugee camps in Hungary, "they want to dump it on us again".

Orbán said a Hungarian government that acted as the western European ones do "would be ousted in three minutes".

Asked what tools he had at his disposal for protecting the country, Orbán said it was crucial to stand firm because "the first frontline of the fight against migration is in the Hungarian Parliament".

"There are mercenaries sitting across from us," the prime minister said. He said the government must not give in to the demands of the opposition, arguing that they would tear down Hungary's border fence, approve the migrant quotas, support the decisions in Brussels and build migrant ghettos.

Many in the opposition are paid in foreign currency, dollars, euros and forints, "and everyone knows that he who pays the piper calls the tune," the prime minister said.

Brussels can use the Hungarian left to force the migrant quotas and migrant ghettos onto Hungary at any time, he said.

Orbán said there were legal means available for delaying certain decisions in connection with the debate on migration, adding that "resistance groups" were also being organised. He expressed hope that more countries would begin to oppose migration along the way.

On another subject, Orbán said it must be made clear that "foreigners can't buy political influence in Hungary".

He said though there was reason to bring up corruption when it came to the foreign campaign donations received by Hungary's left-wing parties in last year's general election, he saw the matter more as a question of sovereignty.

If Hungarian lawmakers or the mayor of the Hungarian capital can be bought, "that means that these people don't make decisions based on the interests of the Hungarian people, but rather on the expectations of their clients", he said. "That means we're not sovereign," he added.

Corruption is a crime everywhere, the prime minister said, adding that Hungary had not dealt with this issue properly. Orbán said that though he believed the case in question called for punishment, the regulations needed to be made clearer.

I chose to highlight only a few sections where Orban blames/bashes the West, EU, Ukraine, "them", foreigners, and the US. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 15, 2023, 03:25:21 AM
Can't blame him for not wanting to turn Hungary into france
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zoupa on July 15, 2023, 04:14:25 AM
Fascist agrees with fascist. News at 11.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 15, 2023, 01:31:45 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 15, 2023, 04:14:25 AMFascist agrees with fascist. News at 11.

coming from you I'll take it as a compliment.

"N'ayez pas peur Madame, ce ne sont que des gueux"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 18, 2023, 12:05:56 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 15, 2023, 03:25:21 AMCan't blame him for not wanting to turn Hungary into france

Hungary by any measure is a far worse place.

But not really sure what that has to do with saying the war in Ukraine will continue because the West wants it to. I don't see any evidence for this narrative that Ukraine is just desperate to surrender completely and become a Russian satellite and the West won't let them. We do not have that kind of power over the common people of Ukraine. The only reason we are supporting them at all is because they want to fight. If they didn't want to the war would already be over and there wouldn't be much we could do about it. See Afghanistan.

Likewise if Taiwan just wanted to join China and become a fully integrated province, we couldn't do much to stop them. But they don't want to be...so then we find ourselves in our current situation.

Orban is just inventing facts to suit his narrative, it has no connection to reality.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 17, 2023, 06:14:58 AM
I guess a very revealing little conversation. The Hungarian foreign minister did a PR thing at some influencers sneaker store and bought an expesive one. The clerk asked: cash or card? The minister replied: cash, always.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on September 17, 2023, 07:01:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2023, 06:14:58 AMI guess a very revealing little conversation. The Hungarian foreign minister did a PR thing at some influencers sneaker store and bought an expesive one. The clerk asked: cash or card? The minister replied: cash, always.

 :lol:

:lol:

Did he go on to try and pay with roubles?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on September 17, 2023, 07:08:36 AM
Paying with cash is just more baller
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 03, 2023, 06:09:05 AM
Viktor "Defender of Christianity from Muslim Hordes" Orban just congratulated Azerbaijan for "stabilising" Mountain-Karabach, during his speech at the Turk Council meeting of Central Asian crapholes plus Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on November 03, 2023, 09:21:01 AM
Business as usual for an Orban. The one in the 15th century sold the huge cannon to the Turks, decisive for the 1453 siege.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 03, 2023, 06:26:16 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 03, 2023, 09:21:01 AMBusiness as usual for an Orban. The one in the 15th century sold the huge cannon to the Turks, decisive for the 1453 siege.  :P

Hah, good point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 03, 2023, 06:27:34 PM
It must be easy being Orban and having absolutely no concern with keeping consistent with yourself. Hungary votes with Israel and the US in the UN then happily proceeds to join the Turk Council in da ding immediate ceasefire in Gaza.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 04, 2023, 04:55:13 PM
I thought the cannon maker's name was Urban. :nerd:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on November 04, 2023, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 04, 2023, 04:55:13 PMI thought the cannon maker's name was Urban. :nerd:

That's an Urban legend...  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 04, 2023, 05:53:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 04, 2023, 04:55:13 PMI thought the cannon maker's name was Urban. :nerd:

Ah yes I believe you are right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on November 05, 2023, 02:27:35 AM
Aren't those basically the same name?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 05, 2023, 04:13:59 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on November 05, 2023, 02:27:35 AMAren't those basically the same name?

I don't know original meaning-wise but definitely pronounced differently.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 05, 2023, 08:09:20 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 04, 2023, 04:55:13 PMI thought the cannon maker's name was Urban. :nerd:

What do popes have to do with this? :unsure:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on November 05, 2023, 03:51:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 05, 2023, 04:13:59 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on November 05, 2023, 02:27:35 AMAren't those basically the same name?

I don't know original meaning-wise but definitely pronounced differently.

Here at least his name is spelled both ways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban (strangely, no Hungarian-language wiki page for him).


Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on November 05, 2023, 03:58:56 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on November 05, 2023, 03:51:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 05, 2023, 04:13:59 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on November 05, 2023, 02:27:35 AMAren't those basically the same name?

I don't know original meaning-wise but definitely pronounced differently.

Here at least his name is spelled both ways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban (strangely, no Hungarian-language wiki page for him).




Just a mere coincidence, come on.  :P
Spelling variant, voilà!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 13, 2023, 04:56:34 AM
The government is getting close to introduce the "Sovereignty Protection" bill, which will further curtail access to foreign funds by private media outlets and NGOs. I haven't found details on it yet but it's been built up in propaganda since September so it may be a big Russia-type deal.

It fits very well into the now long-running theme of Orban absolutely not tolerating any source of funds in the country that does not originate personally from him. Years ago the country declined to accept substantial annual grants from Norway because a fraction of it was to go directly to NGOs instead of being channeled through Hungarian decision-makers on where to spend it.

But also some people speculate this bill is in preparation to an EU bill concerning the EU-wide standardisation of public media rules which is apparently slowly making its way through the legislative process.


Also, in equally ridiculous, sad, an dangerous culture war news (I am actually reluctant to use culture war as an expression because there's no conviction on this on Orban's side, just cynical populism), due to all the anti-gay legislation the last few years, there was a photo exhibition in the National Gallery showing LMBTQ couples which got into the news, since first it got attacked by Orban's far-right vassal party Mi Hazank, after which the museum made it a 18+ exhibition, which in turn made it explode in popularity.

Now having learned the lesson, another museum which has been displaying a set of photos from the 60s by a Brazilian photographer showing Brazilian gay men has been made 18+ only.

What a sad place my old country has become.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on November 13, 2023, 05:11:30 AM
Pretty sure you can't bar EU investors from holding a stake in a private media company as it goes against the Single Market. Spain had a similar regulation that had to be ammended many years ago and now only applies to non-EU investors.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 17, 2023, 02:13:50 PM
Apparently the government has been sending this "questionnaire" to the population (source: Reddit, someone translated the contents to English).

Is this accurate, Tamas? Because this is ... well, not subtle.

(https://i.imgur.com/eeLAkOt.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/tQeo3n5.png)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 17, 2023, 02:44:42 PM
Yes I've been mentioning these over the last few years, this is like 5th time they are doing this on various topics.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 19, 2023, 06:28:54 AM
Even before Soros is dead he is being replaced by his son as the Big Bad Jew international financier:

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7yQpCZBYMVX5132mms-lg.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on November 19, 2023, 06:44:44 PM
Are they as funny in Hungarian as in English?
Some of them... That child protection one...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2023, 07:15:06 PM
Junior does fit the role a little better than pops.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on November 19, 2023, 09:32:11 PM
How so?

(I know nothing about him)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2023, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2023, 09:32:11 PMHow so?

(I know nothing about him)

Neither do I he.  He looks more like an evil world controlling Jewish financier.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 20, 2023, 01:42:41 AM
I love how at first glance it looks similar to FPÖ ads in design.

Oh, and in polls FPÖ is scoring 30% at the moment, and if people could elect chancellor directly, Herbert Kickl would win. :bleeding:

https://www.politico.eu/article/hungaria-austria-herbert-kickl-watch-out-ukraine-here-comes-the-hungaro-austrian-empire/

(I hope next year's elections will bring the shittiness of FPÖ into sharper focus and see a broad "anyone but them" turnout, but it's Austria, so ....  :( )
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 20, 2023, 04:12:37 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2023, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2023, 09:32:11 PMHow so?

(I know nothing about him)

Neither do I he.  He looks more like an evil world controlling Jewish financier.

Hardly:

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/C6A9/production/_96875805_bc4f6769-4202-4793-b15f-bec039393198.jpg.webp)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 20, 2023, 04:13:55 AM
Quote from: Josquius on November 19, 2023, 06:44:44 PMAre they as funny in Hungarian as in English?
Some of them... That child protection one...

In the sense of how much leading "questions" they are, sure. With these "polls", it should be insulting to people to face and read just how stupid Fidesz considers them.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 21, 2023, 07:46:08 AM
If you can deal with relying on (not auto-generated) subtitles over Hungarian audio, there's a long summary on how  the Orban regime dealt with challengers/barriers to Orban's march to autocracy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ego4aQLZKlQ
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 21, 2023, 06:45:16 PM
Here we go, next step in Russification: https://telex.hu/english/2023/11/21/hungarian-parties-and-candidates-who-accept-money-from-abroad-could-face-up-to-three-years-in-prison
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on November 21, 2023, 06:50:18 PM
Is Russia considered "abroad"?

What about EU funding?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on November 22, 2023, 04:48:53 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2023, 06:50:18 PMIs Russia considered "abroad"?

What about EU funding?

I guess its one of those laws that is a huge and terrible treasonous scandal when the other side do it but when the proper good honest Hungarians do it that's completely different and not worthy of note?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 22, 2023, 05:07:54 AM
Quote from: Josquius on November 22, 2023, 04:48:53 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2023, 06:50:18 PMIs Russia considered "abroad"?

What about EU funding?

I guess its one of those laws that is a huge and terrible treasonous scandal when the other side do it but when the proper good honest Hungarians do it that's completely different and not worthy of note?

Indeed. Although to be fair at this point it is trivial for them to channel insane amounts of money through various human wallets they have to make it look all patriotic.

Sometimes with bills like this they submit a harsher initial version than what they consider the minimum viable product, that way the outrage dies down and people are relieved when the actual law is less terrible (of course the final version would still have triggered outrage if introduced first), I guess we'll see if that's the case here.

Another interesting question though if this bill signals Orban giving up on getting his EU funds. Ever since 2011's media law the only thing slowing him down was EU backlash (or rather: "backlash"). He might have given up on caring, or wants to switch purely to coercion e.g. he keeps delaying the vote on Sweden's NATO membership.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 03:52:55 AM
You can count on Orban to be disgusting in any situation.

The Israeli national team was playing Switzerland in his village backyard (no, really, there's a beautiful stadium there), so his people posted this online: "Hungary, the island of peace"
(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7yW8yz8F1TuxX1PIs-xs.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 04:03:15 AM
Meanwhile, the controversial posters with UVL and Young Jewish Villain Alex Soros are being corrected and plastered over.

They go from this:
(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7yVUALDsXVRl1Oj1xQs-xxl.jpeg)

(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7yUBKiUAw4LSI8OCs-xxl.jpeg)

i.e. they make Soros' hand and pointing finger disappear.

Best explanation I have read is that because of his open mouth and pointing finger it seems like he is the one warning the Hungarian nation of UVL's evilness, which of course is an unacceptable interpretation, the Chief Jew must be seen as evil.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on November 23, 2023, 04:11:16 AM
I've just realised how great a Star Trek episode an Orban analogue coming to rule a Federation planet would be.
The whole dilemma about what happens when someone drops beneath the standards, the lack of an ability to kick planets out, etc...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 04:20:01 AM
Yeah it's something the UK seem to had faced in a much more minor way with Boris Johnson. As The Economist pointed it out at the time, much of the British political system depends on everyone keeping to a gentlemen's agreement of not messing it up, same way the EU works, really. So when somebody comes around who could not care less about what is expected of them, the system can be exploited.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 23, 2023, 06:17:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 04:20:01 AMYeah it's something the UK seem to had faced in a much more minor way with Boris Johnson. As The Economist pointed it out at the time, much of the British political system depends on everyone keeping to a gentlemen's agreement of not messing it up, same way the EU works, really. So when somebody comes around who could not care less about what is expected of them, the system can be exploited.
I don't really buy Peter Hennessy's "good chaps" theory of politics (though I'm a big admirer). I think the British political system ultimately depends on the idea that politics works - i.e. that public opinion moves and is responsive to what's happening politically, and, in turn, politicians respond to public opinion.

I think with the EU it's a slightly different issue which is that the EU likes to pretend it's a purely legal order of technocratic decision making and not political. You saw this come up a lot in the Brexit negotiations. In reality, it is an intensely political body and horse-trading is arguably the key currency of EU decision making (see: CAP, for example, but also every ECOFIN meeting or council negotiation on legislation) implemented technocratically. It's less everyone needs to be a "good chap" and more everyone needs a legalist/technocratic cover - in the Brexit example there  were various things it was literally impossible for the EU to do because it's a legal order, until it agreed them because the politics changed and the legal constraint melted away. You see this with hard-core Remainers saying the NIP wasn't actually re-negotiated because the EU didn't amend the text of the NIP so it was exactly as they said - which is true, but they amended all the implementing legislation to change the substance of the NIP, which I'd suggest is how you re-negotiate without saying you're re-negotiating.

Suspending a member state is an intensely political decision, which is why it sits with the Council. There is still no sign that member states are willing to take that decision. So, in its absence, we get technocratic busywork from the Commission (who don't have much power over this) and increasing frustration from the Parliament (who also don't have much power on this) - but they can't do anything. It requires the member states to make a political call and bite the bullet. Once they're willing to do that a way and justification legally could be found.

This isn't a lack of ability or agency or impossibility - it is a political choice by the other leaders that, for whatever reasons, they don't want to. Article 7 has been triggered by Parliament (which is about all they can do). It's the Council who are choosing not to acting (and they only need an 4/5 majority at this stage so it's not just Poland). I think a failure in institutional design is far too generous and (helpfully) disguises the real problem.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 06:58:00 AM
Not disagreeing, but the horse-trading expression made me think perhaps it is cultural in the sense that the British are ok to have their political system (officially) hang on the precipice of constant political deal making but "horse-trading" would be a deeply derogatory term in Hungary and perhaps many other parts of Europe, hence the need for the (at least nominally) technocratic approach.

It's something I always think about seeing these British TV shows where they buy and sell antiques at auctions. These shows do not exist in Hungary and the sort of wheeling and dealing would be frowned upon I think. It would be a dishonest puritan frown because otherwise everyone is obsessed with making a good deal on anything, of course, but still. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on November 23, 2023, 07:06:26 AM
I'd say its generally Europeans who have far more negotiation as integral to the system- coalitions are uncommon in FPTP UK whilst its the standard way things work in more democratic countries.
Though I do believe after the negotiation there tends to be an actual formal signed agreement off the back of this rather than a spit and a handshake as in British agreements.
Europeans expect deals in writing. Britain just goes with blind trust.

Also for sure the EU does have rules setup in places with e.g. the selection of the commission president, that makes it look like a straight rule based vote on the candidates democracy, when in actual fact this is a decision decided via negotiation amongst member states and the vote at the end is more of a rubber stamp. This is something that a lot of Brits just fail to grasp.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 09:59:30 AM
QuoteEuropeans expect deals in writing. Britain just goes with blind trust.

That is very, very true at least for Eastern Europe where I experience.

And this makes on average the UK a far more liveable place than Eastern Europe. But I kinda' wish a middle ground was found.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 23, 2023, 02:40:00 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2023, 06:58:00 AMNot disagreeing, but the horse-trading expression made me think perhaps it is cultural in the sense that the British are ok to have their political system (officially) hang on the precipice of constant political deal making but "horse-trading" would be a deeply derogatory term in Hungary and perhaps many other parts of Europe, hence the need for the (at least nominally) technocratic approach.
Yeah - I think horse trading is probably derogatory in the UK too. And I don't think there's a right answer in the same way as I don't with any institutional system in a democratic context. I think there are trade offs.

I also think they're normally a myth, but like all myths addressing real historical and cultural forces and needs. I think the context of post-war Europe is essential to that. And they're all also simply different forms of legitimacy. I think my only thought is that as the EU is (and should be) acting more as a separate entity then it needs more EU level democracy and power.

But having said that I think the initial appearance can be deceptive and almost serves as a myth and a protection. I think it's very helpful for the other heads of government/state that the common perception is the EU can't do anything against Orban rather than that they have consistently for the last decade chosen not to do anything about him. And it's not just the other populists and Poles, I think until about 2018-9 his major protector at the EU level was Merkel for political and commercial reasons.

QuoteIt's something I always think about seeing these British TV shows where they buy and sell antiques at auctions. These shows do not exist in Hungary and the sort of wheeling and dealing would be frowned upon I think. It would be a dishonest puritan frown because otherwise everyone is obsessed with making a good deal on anything, of course, but still. :P
:lol: So Bargain Hunt etc has not crossed into Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 29, 2023, 08:30:15 AM
Incidentally on Ukrainian aid, I'm seeing a lot of EU watchers saying that VdL made a huge mistake because she tied Ukrainian aid to the EU budget approval. On Ukrainian aid, Orban is totally isolated within Europe. But there are lots of countries (including Germany and other big states) who are, for a variety of reasons, not happy with the EU budget proposal. I imagine VdL hoped to use support for Ukraine as leverage to pass the EU budget top up, but it looks like that might have backfired. It's a particular issue for the German government because the Constitutional Court's ruling on debt is causing all sorts of budgetary issues/crisis. While Germany is fully committed to Ukraine and I think would find a solution on that, it is apparently a challenge in a time of emergency budget requirements to then increase the EU's general budget. Obviously that's self-inflicted because of the idiocy of constitutionalising budget rules but that's where we are.

And I think that gets to a wider thing I always worry which is sort of linked to what I was saying about Europe's political leaders not wanting to make the decision on Orban. It makes me wonder if it's a little like Britain's role when it was in the EU. It was always on the liberalising end on single market issues and Eurosceptic on further integration and in both cases viewed as an outlier, but was actually also a shield other member states could hide behind without being the awkward one.

So on the budget lots of other EU countries' leaders have objections but they can slightly hide behind Hungary. Similarly apparently, according to EU Commission sources, Orban is vocal on saying Ukraine's accession is going too fast (and they think he actually has a point on minority rights in Ukraine) - but apparently in private the Austrian, Greek, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Polish and French governments are all raising basically all the same issues (Ukraine's not actually ready for accession, particularly with minority rights; and we can't ignore the West Balkans). But those leaders are all able to position themselves as basically supportive if only it weren't for Orban.

And, it's cynical, but I wonder if that's the real reason members of the Council are so reluctant to actually move against Orban is that when they all agree they can find a way to get him to a backdown (€) or to work around him; when they don't actually agree he provides really helpful cover?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 29, 2023, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 29, 2023, 08:30:15 AMAnd, it's cynical, but I wonder if that's the real reason members of the Council are so reluctant to actually move against Orban is that when they all agree they can find a way to get him to a backdown (€) or to work around him; when they don't actually agree he provides really helpful cover?

That must be part of it, yes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 20, 2023, 02:18:41 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/13/crackdown-on-foreign-interventions-decried-by-hungarian-media

QuoteCrackdown on 'foreign interventions' decried by Hungarian media
Sovereignty protection office created with powers to investigate anyone active in public life

Ten independent Hungarian media outlets have issued a joint warning that a new law is "capable of severely restricting the freedom of the press".

The media organisations, which range from small investigative outlets to popular online news portals, said that a law approved by the Hungarian parliament on Tuesday could make it "difficult or even impossible for independent newsrooms, journalists and media companies to operate".

The Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orbán, has claimed that western governments and individuals are funding and directing his opponents. In recent weeks, the Hungarian government intensified its domestic messaging on the claim that foreign forces were meddling in Hungarian public life and that stricter rules were needed to protect the country's sovereignty.

The law approved this week creates a sovereignty protection office that has broad powers to investigate anyone active in public life.

A Hungarian government spokesperson said the office would "function autonomously with an independent budget, focusing on analysis, evaluation and investigation to safeguard constitutional identity by scrutinising foreign interventions in Hungary's democratic and decision-making processes".


Celebrating the law's passage, Orbán wrote on social media: "Hungary belongs to the Hungarians! We won't let Hungary's future be decided abroad!"

But Hungarian civil society groups and media organisations say the true aim of the legislation is not accountability, but to intimidate and silence critics. "The so-called Sovereignty Protection Authority will be an arbitrarily appointed body with unlimited powers, operating without any oversight," the 10 media organisations said in their statement.

"This office will have the means to threaten and harass the individuals and organisations it targets," they said, vowing to continue their work.

The media groups said the law "does not serve the information security of our society; on the contrary, it is meant to directly undermine it with its threat to free media and democratic debate in general".

Ahead of the law's adoption, a large group of Hungarian civil society groups also raised concerns, arguing that the legislation was unconstitutional and designed to produce a chilling effect.

The NGOs said: "A country where people are intimidated from representing their own interests is not a democracy. Where citizens are accused of serving foreign interests if they speak their minds on public affairs, there is no freedom."

The law has also raised worries outside Hungary.

On Wednesday, the International Press Institute said it "condemns [the] passing of Sovereignty Protection Act by the Orbán [government] without proper public consultation and calls for an EU challenge against the law".

The leaders of four major political groups in the European parliament also expressed concern.

In a letter to the European Commission, group leaders from the centre-right European People's party, Socialists and Democrats, Renew Europe and the Greens wrote that the new sovereignty protection office "risks to be used to further silence opposition parties, NGOs and other government critics".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on December 20, 2023, 02:48:49 AM
Will no one rid the EU of this turbulent hungarian?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:48:34 PM
Saw an interview (on Youtube, obviously you can't see such a thing on other media in Hungary) with a fairly prominent historian who has been a vocal critique of the system. Few points to note:

Mainly the most interesting is that he offered an explanation to one of my questions regarding Orban's system: how is it that seemingly fewer Hungarians bough the communist propaganda BS during the Cold War than they do Orban's?

One thing he mentioned which is fairly straightforward is that now it is easier to make the West into the enemy and Russia the idol because nobody has any exposure to the actual Russian system. Back in the communist era it was the other way around. Russian reality was an everyday reality for Hungarians as well and the West was everything that system wasn't (mostly for real, otherwise in imagination).

The other thing was more general. His thesis is that the Internet and its communication reach is a decisive difference between (post-1956) communist Hungary and Orban's regime. In his view, Orban has far more effective control over the public (in terms of communication and discourse) than Kadar (our post-56 commie leader) ever did. And that's because Kadar's era's media and communication relied on the intelligentsia, of journalists, writers, media personalities. They were needed and were not easy to replace so they had a non-zero wiggle room in the way they conveyed messages and shaped discourse. Nowadays you don't need that filter between your propagandists and the public.

He of course see this as a global issue and is quite pessimistic about the dumbification of public life and discourse.

One of the last questions was what he thinks future Hungarian generations will say of the Orban era looking back. His first reaction was that it will be seen as one of the low points of our history, but then on reflection and based on the above he recanted: his point was, who says that this dumbing down of public standards has stopped, we might be in just the middle of that process, in which case future generations may consider Orban's a golden age.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PM
Oh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 02, 2024, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:48:34 PMMainly the most interesting is that he offered an explanation to one of my questions regarding Orban's system: how is it that seemingly fewer Hungarians bough the communist propaganda BS during the Cold War than they do Orban's?
Isn't the obvious answer that communism was imposed by force by an external power? Whatever else you say about Orban's system, it's Hungarian and emerged democratically.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 10:23:27 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2024, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:48:34 PMMainly the most interesting is that he offered an explanation to one of my questions regarding Orban's system: how is it that seemingly fewer Hungarians bough the communist propaganda BS during the Cold War than they do Orban's?
Isn't the obvious answer that communism was imposed by force by an external power? Whatever else you say about Orban's system, it's Hungarian and emerged democratically.

Yeah to be fair the guy also started with that, that Kádárs regime would not had survived the soviet troops leaving.

Still it goes beyond that I think.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PMOh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.

Under what definition would Trump not also be a "senile old man"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 12:04:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PMOh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.

Under what definition would Trump not also be a "senile old man"?

Wouldn't "complete idiot" cut more into the core of what he is?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2024, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PMOh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.

It's true.

All the way with Senile Old Man 24!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on February 03, 2024, 03:42:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PMOh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.

Under what definition would Trump not also be a "senile old man"?

Yeah. I don't get this one people keep repeating.
Trump is older than Biden was when the attacks on his age really kicked off last election.
And considering trump looks after himself a lot worse... I do think in body he is far older.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 04:34:13 PM
Quote from: Josquius on February 03, 2024, 03:42:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PMOh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.

Under what definition would Trump not also be a "senile old man"?

Yeah. I don't get this one people keep repeating.
Trump is older than Biden was when the attacks on his age really kicked off last election.
And considering trump looks after himself a lot worse... I do think in body he is far older.

Why do people get so defensive on this? Yes Trump is very clearly far more senile and degraded mentally than Biden. But even in his prime Trump was a terrible choice for a President. Even if you remove his senility he is a terrible choice and his candidacy alone is damning testament on his his part and by extension his country let alone his previous Presidency.

Joe Biden would be perfectly servicable (even good) candidate and President if it wasn't for his very advanced age. The fact that his party could not produce anyone better than a decent but very old man who should be retiring, is a damning testament on his party and by extension his country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 03, 2024, 04:43:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 04:34:13 PM
Quote from: Josquius on February 03, 2024, 03:42:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2024, 04:52:26 PMOh and in term of global stupidification, he mentioned: "the US is about to choose between a complete idiot and a senile old man".  :D Funny because it is true.

Under what definition would Trump not also be a "senile old man"?

Yeah. I don't get this one people keep repeating.
Trump is older than Biden was when the attacks on his age really kicked off last election.
And considering trump looks after himself a lot worse... I do think in body he is far older.

Why do people get so defensive on this? Yes Trump is very clearly far more senile and degraded mentally than Biden. But even in his prime Trump was a terrible choice for a President. Even if you remove his senility he is a terrible choice and his candidacy alone is damning testament on his his part and by extension his country let alone his previous Presidency.

Joe Biden would be perfectly servicable (even good) candidate and President if it wasn't for his very advanced age. The fact that his party could not produce anyone better than a decent but very old man who should be retiring, is a damning testament on his party and by extension his country.

None of that seems to answer our question.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 03, 2024, 04:51:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 04:34:13 PMJoe Biden would be perfectly servicable (even good) candidate and President if it wasn't for his very advanced age. The fact that his party could not produce anyone better than a decent but very old man who should be retiring, is a damning testament on his party and by extension his country.
I think Biden has been a pretty good President.

But on the Democrats bench I found Biden appointing John Podesta (75, formerly of the Clinton and Obama Administrations) to replace John Kerry (80, candidate and then in Obama Administration).

I fully get that part of the reason the GOP burns through politicians is because of the firebrands get elected, then the base decide they're moderates and turn on them cycle. But they do appear capable of making space at the top for new blood occasionally.

Honestly I just feel like someone should introduce these elders to golf and let them retire.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 03, 2024, 05:14:50 PM
Introduce Trump to golf? :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2024, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 04:34:13 PMJoe Biden would be perfectly servicable (even good) candidate and President if it wasn't for his very advanced age. The fact that his party could not produce anyone better than a decent but very old man who should be retiring, is a damning testament on his party and by extension his country.

Is that true? We have tons of Democratic Senators and Governors. Some of them even well known. There is no particular reason they couldn't run and be a decent president.

The Democrats just aren't doing it. The reason is because they are afraid their base wants the Bernie Sanders and AOC types and so they are using Biden because of his name recognition and association with the Obama presidency. They are afraid the left will be ascendent if they open it up and that will hurt them with their donors. At least that is my guess based on the last primary in 2020.

But they will have to open it up eventually.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 04, 2024, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2024, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 03, 2024, 04:34:13 PMJoe Biden would be perfectly servicable (even good) candidate and President if it wasn't for his very advanced age. The fact that his party could not produce anyone better than a decent but very old man who should be retiring, is a damning testament on his party and by extension his country.

Is that true? We have tons of Democratic Senators and Governors. Some of them even well known. There is no particular reason they couldn't run and be a decent president.

The Democrats just aren't doing it. The reason is because they are afraid their base wants the Bernie Sanders and AOC types and so they are using Biden because of his name recognition and association with the Obama presidency. They are afraid the left will be ascendent if they open it up and that will hurt them with their donors. At least that is my guess based on the last primary in 2020.

But they will have to open it up eventually.

I don't know how accurate that narrative is.

If we trust wikipedia, the 2020 Dem primary had:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
QuoteA total of 29 major candidates declared their candidacies for the primaries, the largest field of presidential primary candidates for any American political party since the modern primaries began in 1972, exceeding the field of 17 major candidates in the 2016 Republican Party presidential primaries.

...

18 of the 29 declared candidates withdrew before the formal beginning of the primary due to low polling, fundraising, and media coverage

And while true that many left before the primary season truly started, we also know that a shit ton of them participated in debates prior to voting commencing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_debates

QuoteThere were a total of 29 major Democratic candidates. Of these, 23 candidates participated in at least one debate. Only Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders participated in all the debates; Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, and Elizabeth Warren participated in all but the final debate

So on contention 1) field was pretty open in 2020 - with many well known Dem congresspeople. Not a surprise field not so open in 2024 when we already have an incumbent. :P

With regards to closing out the left, I recall and wiki suggests that the leftist candidate ascendant was Bernie and he only got taken down once the moderate vote consolidated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
QuoteThe first primary was marred by controversy, as technical issues with vote reporting resulted in a three-day delay in vote counting in the Iowa caucus, as well as subsequent recounts. The certified results of the caucus eventually showed Mayor Pete Buttigieg winning the most delegates, while Senator Bernie Sanders won the popular vote in the state. Sanders then won the New Hampshire primary in a narrow victory over Buttigieg before handily winning the Nevada caucus, solidifying Sanders' status as the front-runner for the nomination.

Biden, whose campaign fortunes had suffered from losses in Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada, made a comeback by overwhelmingly winning the South Carolina primary, motivated by strong support from African American voters, an endorsement from South Carolina U.S. Representative Jim Clyburn, as well as Democratic establishment concerns about nominating Sanders. After Biden won South Carolina, and one day before the Super Tuesday primaries, several candidates dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden in what was viewed as a consolidation of the party's moderate wing. Prior to the announcement, polling saw Sanders leading with a plurality in most Super Tuesday states. Biden then won 10 out of 15 contests on Super Tuesday, beating back challenges from Sanders, Warren, and former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, solidifying his lead.

I guess that could be the party leaders coalescing to prevent the left from capturing the presidency but it equally could be said that there were enough voters who wanted a moderate candidate that once the moderate vote wasn't split across many candidates, a moderate candidate won.

Finally on age which was where this all started, Bernie is a year older than Biden. So even in the 2020 primary, before moderates got behind Biden, the Dems were initially tracking to elect a very old man.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on February 04, 2024, 11:19:58 AM
That's a reasonable analysis garbon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 04, 2024, 11:42:23 AM
Totally agree on 2020 - what I'd add there is that it's striking that the three candidates who did best were all north of 75: Warren, Sanders, Biden. I think that is something that should cause a bit of soul searching within the party about why that was - especially in a winnable year and I think a very important year.

It was very open, unlike 2016 (and I rate Biden but I wish he'd run then, understanding entirely why he didn't). I think it is possible the leadership fear a turn to the left with Sanders two surprisingly successful runs - and also the example of the GOP.

But the other thing I'd add is the key bit to Biden's coalition in 2020 was African-American voters - it was Jim Clyburn and South Carolina which transformed Biden's chances, especially with upcoming southern states and many on Super Tuesday too.

I think one of the questions on 2020 and Biden has to be why so few other candidates - and none of the younger ones - seemed to really win over African-American voters who are absolutely core to the Democrats. I think moderate v left is part of it and I wouldn't purely elide African-American voters with moderate Democrats but it's clear you had some, like Buttigieg, who were able to appeal to the latter without making any real in-roads with the former.

And as a leftie part of me wonders if that's partly, with the possible exception of Obama, it's really difficult to balance the college educated camp (either from the left like Warren, or centre like Buttigieg) while still appealing to working class voters particularly minorities and especially Black voters in the US - and Biden shows that, perhaps, the latter is still the most important bloc at a Presidential level because of how the primaries work. It is perhaps precisely the stuff that people on social and mainstream media feel is a bit cringey about Biden (which I love personally) that actually is core to his appeal?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 08, 2024, 01:29:31 PM
A great incident to show the nature of the regime.

Couple of years ago a school (can't remember if elementary or high school) director and his assistant director were jailed for pedophilia. The actual pedo was the director, having sexual acts with boy students, but the assistant at some point coerced one of the kids into revoking his testimony, himself typing the changed "testimony" such as "I lied we did not jerk each other off" stuff like that. So for aiding and abiding or whatever, he the assistant was also sent to prison.

Until about a week ago when he received a presidential pardon.

Now, the President has been a completely useless human stamping machine since Orban came to power. Absolutely zero independence, especially since the current lady took over the post, she is part of the generation of politicians who have absolutely no achievement independent of being lifted up by Orban in exchange of unquestionable loyalty.

So ever since the news broke there has been rising outrage. "Pedo-protecting Fidesz" is a message very much on the political discourse level that Fidesz worked so hard to spread since 2002.

So first they unleashed their own influencers who all launched a campaign making videos about their own outrage of the "left" being so outrageously double-faced as to accuse others of pedophilia when they are the ones looking to make children in kindergarten have gender-change surgery.

I guess that one hasn't worked because Orban announced he is proposing a change to the constitution so that the President will be explicitly forbidden from pardoning people sentenced for crimes against children.

Now of course the theatre that the President has any sort of autonomy is outrageous enough, but throwing her under the bus becomes even juicier when you consider what's the likely reason the pedo-aider got pardoned. It's his connections, of course.

As it was revealed by journalists a day or so into the scandal, the pedo-aider was enthusiastic and successful in working their way into the Fidesz circles of  Orbans home region. Apparently there are lots of sightings of him in news archives being around local dignitaries and taking part in events. There is also some sort of an organisational/business relation with Orban's brother.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on February 10, 2024, 07:14:40 PM
The president has now resigned.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2024, 08:16:47 AM
Quote from: HVC on February 10, 2024, 07:14:40 PMThe president has now resigned.

So did the Minister of Justice (incidentally the other female in government) who co-signed the President's pardon decision.

Zero sympathy from me for either. Two nauseating persons, part of the "young" generation lifted up by Orban and consequently zero political achievements on their own resulting in absolute loyalty to the King. The justice minister just always seen like a very unpleasant person (I think she is one of the closeted homosexuals in Fidesz who actively assisted in the persecution of their brethren, but I admit that's just a vibe with no proof).

And the president was predictably terrible as well, signing everything put in front of her (including as we can see, pardoning aides of pedophiles) and she had been touring the world including Ukraine to play the good cop next to Orban.

But, the justice minister's ex-husband has come public since the resignations about his criticism of the all-encompassing cronyism and corruption. He had been a bit of a nobody but with some mid-level positions. Before the divorce a year or so ago he was last heard of being bailed from some money-distributing position to joining the army and then catapulted into some fairly senior rank. Will be interesting to see if anything comes of this. We will know if he is a true risk to the regime, if he suffers an accident or commits suicide on the back seat of a police car, like a couple of people similar to him in the past.

Incidentally, in his interview last night (again on the far-left (as in declaredly communist) Youtube channel "Partizan" that has grown out to replace state media as a platform for political debates and interviews) he reflected on the points we have been discussing in the Brexit thread. For a while he was in charge of the authority responsible for those highways which had not been sold to Orban's human wallet, so, according to him, he was a frequent annoyance because he not always approved certain construction projects, although the context was that he did approve most. According to him projects sent to his team for approval (so already accepted by local councils or other authorities) routinely had suppliers/contractors quoting 3 to 6 times over market rates. Apparently after some particular non-approval he received a very thinly veiled threat that enough is enough, after which he resigned (I think that's when he was given the army job, since by that time his still-wife was a big shot).

He highlighted Orban's Goebbels-Beria hybrid, Antal Rogan, as a key man behind the scenes and essentially warned Orban against him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2024, 02:07:50 PM
Not that it matters but I was wrong, the soldier guy jumping from reserves fresh recruit to reserves colonel is the husband of the ex-president, not the justice minister.

These two couples kind of look alike:

President:
(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/80ZOt8VNK5ymNVFKs-xl.png)


Minister of Justice:
(https://static.magyarhirlap.hu/images/202305/md/242231303-4805459596139625-9164585691821058866-n.jpg)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 16, 2024, 08:20:34 AM
This whole thing might continue to spiral downwards (from Orban's point of view).

As I understand the scandal has been successfully turned into a conversation about the (pretty bad) situation of vulnerable children in the country in the social media space. Tonight there's going to be a demonstration for those children in Budapest, endorsed and attended by a number of non-government influencers including this singer/artist dude called Azahriah whom I did not know existed until about half a year ago when he sold out like 2 consecutive concert nights at the country's biggest stadium.

The problem from a Fidesz point of view is that "protecting the children" had been made the MOST CRUCIAL ISSUE by them for the past several years, it was the basis from (partially) pivoting from hating immigrants to hating homosexuals. They have made this their big raison d'etre (protecting kindergarteners from gender change surgery and other similarly pressing issues), so suddenly they find themselves on the pointy end of the knife they were sharpening against their opponents.

Still, it can easily die down from here, I mean the total control of the media, including ridiculous amounts spent on social media adverts and presence, remains.

But, something feels off at the moment. Orban has had almost complete radio silence (hasn't made a comment on the President of Hungary resigning, for example, not to mention his Minister of Justice) and as always, when minions are left to their own device they talk and do stupidly.

Mainly, after the resignation of the President, focus switched on her once-mentor Zoltan Balog whom several sources identified as the driving force behind the pedo-amnesty. I first thought this was a distraction to make sure the direct Orban family connection (which is fairly visible) with the amnestied guy is dropped, but maybe not so.

Balog used to be an influential minister (despite looking like a dimwit) who has years ago moved on to be promoted into a Reformed bishop of the country.

So this Balog guy wanted to nip rumours in the bud and talked to the press... long story short, while doing so, he essentially admitted that yes he discussed the amnesty with the President -although he was quick to highlight it was her decision not his- and that he (and that means the President as well) was aware of the crimes the pedo-aider made, he just felt he was treated unfairly and according to "Christian forgiveness" should be forgiven. Right.

The Reformed church moved to remove him but so far he has managed to secure enough votes to stay in his seat, thereby pushing that organisation into turmoil, although whether that matters at all I am not sure.

So, there's clear chaos on the government's end and escalation into more trouble for them seems plausible.

But then again, when the Russian invasion started there was also clear indecisiveness and chaos in their communication rank, and they did manage to turn that fiasco into an election-winning narrative of being "on the side pf peace". So, will see.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 06, 2024, 07:56:10 AM
Sandor "The Don" Pinter, Minister of Interior signed a so-called security agreement with his Chinese counterpart a few weeks ago.

Apparently one provision in it is that Hungarian and Chinese police officers may go on joint patrols in Hungary to "improve cooperation between the two nations". I guess somebody is preparing for the times when elections can't be won without Belarus-level cheating.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on March 06, 2024, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 06, 2024, 07:56:10 AMSandor "The Don" Pinter, Minister of Interior signed a so-called security agreement with his Chinese counterpart a few weeks ago.

Apparently one provision in it is that Hungarian and Chinese police officers may go on joint patrols in Hungary to "improve cooperation between the two nations". I guess somebody is preparing for the times when elections can't be won without Belarus-level cheating.

It's more likely to crack down on Chinese nationals in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 06, 2024, 08:39:58 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 06, 2024, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 06, 2024, 07:56:10 AMSandor "The Don" Pinter, Minister of Interior signed a so-called security agreement with his Chinese counterpart a few weeks ago.

Apparently one provision in it is that Hungarian and Chinese police officers may go on joint patrols in Hungary to "improve cooperation between the two nations". I guess somebody is preparing for the times when elections can't be won without Belarus-level cheating.

It's more likely to crack down on Chinese nationals in Hungary.

Good point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2024, 06:05:40 AM
15th March is a big date in Hungary, the anniversary of the start of our liberal revolution in 1848. It's both sad and funny that most of the demands from 1848 could be demanded from the government today as well, but such is life in Eastern Europe.


Probably because it's (local and European) election year, but for the first time in quite a while Orban did not flee Budapest for the day and held a speech there, although they didn't try to organise the mass pro-government demonstration that used to be a regular thing for such occurances.

Highlights from the speech: From Europe, instead of peace we have received war. Instead of security we have received "rule of law" kerfuffle. Instead of prosperity we have received blackmail. We have been fooled, but it is time to rise up and restore the pride of Europeans. We are not alone in this, even though Poland has been washed away by the Soros-ist flood, the Slovaks have awakened, the Czechs are coming to their senses, and the Italians are turning in the right direction, and the Americans are revolting. Although we were alone at the start of the year, by the end of it we will be the majority in Western Europe.

Orban also said that a "sovereignist" turning point is approaching in America and Europe, which will open the road for normal life and prosperity, and a new great age of Western nations where everyone can find success. Everyone, except those who have betrayed their oaths to the nation, who are working against their own country in Brussels to make sure teachers and nurses won't get paid, those who in exchange of 30 Brussels-silver coins would hand over our children to mad gender activists. They will not find success, the will find the fate of traitors and will be forgotten.


He ended with a reference to the elections: people have a choice between the national way or the Soros-empire and "us parents" will get an answer on what kind of children we are leaving to the world.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 15, 2024, 01:42:38 PM
Man it really is always about the evil jews.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 19, 2024, 06:30:48 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 06, 2024, 08:31:58 AMIt's more likely to crack down on Chinese nationals in Hungary.
Yeah there's been a lot about the Chinese overseas police stations which are, from what I understand, basically like United Front and mainly about monitoring and policing the diaspora. Not least because China's interepretation of who they should have jurisdiction over is a lot more than just Chinese nationals.

I think the ones in the UK were required to close (officially) last year. But from a quick Google it looks like there's a couple in Budapest. Local law enforcement cooperation is, I think, pretty unusual though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2024, 05:00:30 AM
Surely for Sheilbh's delight ( :P ) Orban has made "sovereignty" the main calling word for this year, especially because of the "Sovereignty Protection Office" he has created to harass "foreign agents" such as independent journalists.

But also, he made a comment that with Brexit, the Brits "who think in a nation-state" have left and thus it is now up to the Central European member states to "protect sovereignty".  :lol: 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2024, 08:08:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 12, 2024, 08:16:47 AM
Quote from: HVC on February 10, 2024, 07:14:40 PMThe president has now resigned.

So did the Minister of Justice (incidentally the other female in government) who co-signed the President's pardon decision.

Zero sympathy from me for either. Two nauseating persons, part of the "young" generation lifted up by Orban and consequently zero political achievements on their own resulting in absolute loyalty to the King. The justice minister just always seen like a very unpleasant person (I think she is one of the closeted homosexuals in Fidesz who actively assisted in the persecution of their brethren, but I admit that's just a vibe with no proof).

And the president was predictably terrible as well, signing everything put in front of her (including as we can see, pardoning aides of pedophiles) and she had been touring the world including Ukraine to play the good cop next to Orban.

But, the justice minister's ex-husband has come public since the resignations about his criticism of the all-encompassing cronyism and corruption. He had been a bit of a nobody but with some mid-level positions. Before the divorce a year or so ago he was last heard of being bailed from some money-distributing position to joining the army and then catapulted into some fairly senior rank. Will be interesting to see if anything comes of this. We will know if he is a true risk to the regime, if he suffers an accident or commits suicide on the back seat of a police car, like a couple of people similar to him in the past.

Incidentally, in his interview last night (again on the far-left (as in declaredly communist) Youtube channel "Partizan" that has grown out to replace state media as a platform for political debates and interviews) he reflected on the points we have been discussing in the Brexit thread. For a while he was in charge of the authority responsible for those highways which had not been sold to Orban's human wallet, so, according to him, he was a frequent annoyance because he not always approved certain construction projects, although the context was that he did approve most. According to him projects sent to his team for approval (so already accepted by local councils or other authorities) routinely had suppliers/contractors quoting 3 to 6 times over market rates. Apparently after some particular non-approval he received a very thinly veiled threat that enough is enough, after which he resigned (I think that's when he was given the army job, since by that time his still-wife was a big shot).

He highlighted Orban's Goebbels-Beria hybrid, Antal Rogan, as a key man behind the scenes and essentially warned Orban against him.


This has been spiraling on.

Executive summary if you don't want to read on: For the first time in years Orban and his gang are not defining the political discourse and there are allegations made against key people of his which are in actual democracies would destroy any government.

I am sure political scientists / sociologists would enjoy the classic signs of desperations in which a former mid-high level chinovnik of the Orban system becomes a Messianistic figure for large swaths of the opposition, as that's what has happened.

Peter Magyar, ex-husband of the Minister of Justice who resigned following the pedo-pardon scandal made a HUGE splash with his interview I described above.

On 15th March the big national holiday he has launched, well, himself, politically, and he managed to draw more people than any of the other opposition parties, and probably more than Orban's speech, although the latter was kept low key on purpose (tens of thousands can be mobilised on short notice to march and look at Orban in awe if needed).

What's unclear on Magyar is whether he truly wants to destroy the regime or want to become the second most important person in it. I suspect the latter. But whatever his original ambition was, I think events are pushing him towards a do or die (perhaps even literally) situation.

Due to the claims he made in earlier interviews he has been summoned on a couple of occasions to the state prosecutors' office. He said that before this morning's appointment he'd release an audio recording implicating Antal "Goebbels" Rogan (Orban's propaganda and secret services minister) and the prosecutor's office. Which he did.

On the recording he is talking to his then-wife about a year ago (wonderful conservative marriage I guess if you are making audio recordings of conversations), where she explains that Rogan's men were instructing the state prosecutors on how to remove any links to Rogan and his circle from the prosecution's paperwork on what has been the biggest Orban-era corruption case, and how they were asking the wife (still Minister of Justice, remember) to send her own people to do a check-through as well  (I won't bore you with the details of the case but Rogan and the wife's involvement in it, plus the prosecution's deliberate dismissal of those links, were very apparent even from publicly available information).

What blunts the edge of the recording is that the wife says the influencing was only a partial success, which the propaganda will latch on to I think. But of course the wife's conclusion was that the Chief Prosecutor should keep better control of his people.

Peter Magyar called for a demonstration in front of the Prosecutors' Office for this evening. Going to be interesting where this leads. Gun to my head to make a prediction, it's going to die down in a week or two. But for the first time since the couple of days after the outbreak of the war in 2022 (and shortly before the "migrant crisis" in 2015 before that), Orban and his gang has temporarily lost the political initiative, so the die is being cast.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 26, 2024, 08:11:36 AM
Given his service to the regime so far, I assume he's not planning for democratic reforms but would rather want to be the caliph instead of the caliph?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 26, 2024, 08:43:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 26, 2024, 08:11:36 AMGiven his service to the regime so far, I assume he's not planning for democratic reforms but would rather want to be the caliph instead of the caliph?

That's not what he is saying, of course, but yeah it's impossible to tell.

One thing that's a bit revealing (although may be just survival instinct, having insider knowledge on how the regime thinks) is that he has been largely avoiding to directly criticise Orban, only saying that he'd limit Prime Ministerial terms in two total so he couldn't continue. Also he claims his goal for 2026 is to become the "third force" so that whoever (lol) wins won't be able to form a government without his party and thus he can force his (democratising) demands on the winner. But as some analysts pointed out, in the election system created by Orban the strongest party is rewarded with extra seats so it is extremely unlikely that a need for a coalition government would arise in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2024, 06:29:44 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/25/jair-bolsonaro-hiding-embassy

QuoteBrazil's foreign ministry has summoned the Hungarian ambassador to explain why the South American country's embattled former president Jair Bolsonaro spent two nights "hiding" at Hungary's embassy in Brasília last month as federal police investigators closed in on some of his closest allies.

Security footage obtained by the New York Times showed that in early February – four days after two Bolsonaro aides were arrested on suspicion of plotting to overthrow the Brazilian government – the rightwing populist took shelter in the embassy, a short drive from the presidential palace Bolsonaro once occupied.

The New York Times said Bolsonaro's embassy stay suggested he was "seeking to leverage his friendship with a fellow far-right leader, Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orbán of Hungary, into an attempt to evade the Brazilian justice system as he faces criminal investigations at home".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 28, 2024, 08:20:19 AM
Oh God.
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/4fce6fcbf873176794a823b339834fa177679860/127_0_5034_3020/master/5034.jpg?width=1900&dpr=1&s=none)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2024, 09:09:58 AM
 :lol:  Actually a Russian asset like Assange... I don't think Orban would be allowed to say no.