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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Syt on October 12, 2019, 11:38:03 AM

Poll
Question: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Option 1: It's much better than I expected votes: 1
Option 2: It's slightly better than I expected votes: 3
Option 3: It's as good as I expected votes: 0
Option 4: It's as bad as I expected votes: 13
Option 5: It's slightly worse than I expected votes: 15
Option 6: It's much worse than I expected votes: 22
Title: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Syt on October 12, 2019, 11:38:03 AM
In a bit over a year Americans are called upon voting for a new president.

With about 15 months to go till the inauguration of the new and/or old president, has the Trump presidency met your expectations?
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Sophie Scholl on October 12, 2019, 11:44:09 AM
Much worse.  I'm one of the fools who thought he'd be bored by the actual job and let reasonably competent advisers and underlings do the job while he just played golf and held rallies.  Instead...
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Ancient Demon on October 12, 2019, 11:44:56 AM
Much better.  :P
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Barrister on October 12, 2019, 12:02:37 PM
Better, but my expectations were exceedingly low.  I thought he'd have driven the world into recession by now, instead of merely on the brink of one.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: crazy canuck on October 12, 2019, 12:04:45 PM
Much worse.  I did not think the rest of the democratic institutions in the US would be so easily subverted.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Maximus on October 12, 2019, 12:19:21 PM
Slightly worse. I haven't been surprised by anything he's done, but I've been somewhat surprised by things others have not done in response.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Josquius on October 12, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Worse. Thought he'd be gone by now.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: chipwich on October 12, 2019, 12:34:09 PM
Much worse. Although much of that worseness is based on the Senate's unwillingness to bring him down.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: The Brain on October 12, 2019, 12:38:39 PM
Slightly worse. I didn't know before the election that he was so extremely stupid.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: grumbler on October 12, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
I agree with BA.  I thought he'd be a do-nothing president, not an actively anti-American president.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: DGuller on October 12, 2019, 12:49:37 PM
Much worse.  I was naive enough to believe that the office would change him, instead of him changing the office (and the rest of government).
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: dps on October 12, 2019, 03:01:09 PM
Slightly worse.  I knew he'd be corrupt and incompetent, but I thought he'd set aside the Twitter account, but since he didn't, he's been more embarrassing than I expected.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 12, 2019, 03:03:05 PM
As bad as expected. His administration has been worse, but the country and the world have limped along in spite of him.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 12, 2019, 03:03:54 PM
Slightly worse.  I really thought the daily barrage of dumbassery and illegality would slowly but surely chip away at his approval, which it hasn't.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: mongers on October 12, 2019, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 12, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
I agree with BA.  I thought he'd be a do-nothing president, not an actively anti-American president.

This is an astonishing thing to say and yet the evidence points that way; he's doing a 'fine' job of weakening America's standing in the world and wrecking the international system.

Latest news is the SDF/YPG are considering turning to Assad and Russia for aid/protection.   :hmm:
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: frunk on October 12, 2019, 03:39:19 PM
Trump himself is pretty much what I expected.  The extent of Republicans in office carrying water for him is a surprise (although not that much of one).  I thought there would be more of a fight between establishment and Trumpists within the party, but mostly it's been co-opted wholesale.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Razgovory on October 12, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
I didn't expect fucking Nazis to come out the woodwork.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Sheilbh on October 12, 2019, 06:38:41 PM
Nothing has particularly surprised me since he won.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: 11B4V on October 12, 2019, 08:06:39 PM
As bad as expected. Nothing but a conman
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Sophie Scholl on October 13, 2019, 06:03:53 PM
He's got a reverse Midas Touch.  Everything he touches turns to shit.  He's subverted democratic and governmental norms here in the United States while working damn hard to mess up as much as possible with the economy and tax brackets.  The one area he ran on that I had hope for was an infrastructure plan and effort.  An effort he has made almost zero effort to see through while he works on his idiotic border wall and other useless distractions.  He's destroyed our standing internationally as an ally, as a legitimate diplomatic partner, in trade, and in treaty upholding.  He's seemingly pushed down on the United States positions and standing to the massive benefit of China and Russia in particular.  No one in his party is willing to legitimately stand up to him outside of the occasional tweet or comment which they then go back on if things ever come to a vote.  For those who voted "slightly worse", what more can he possibly do other than trigger World War II or a nuclear assault on a country to reach whatever you thought beforehand?  What level did you have him pegged at for his efforts going in?
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: DGuller on October 13, 2019, 06:24:08 PM
One reason I think removal from office would be preferable to election loss is that we won't have a lame duck period of 2+ months where Trump has nothing to fear.  This man is capable of anything that is destructive.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Legbiter on October 13, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
His twitter beefs are as funny as when he campaigned. Pleasantly surprised by how robust the American economy has been. Democrats and the left in general have been an unmitigated disaster, combine impotent rage & cringe with the lunatic spookshow politics of the last three years and I'm left scratching my head. Likely that Trump wins a second term, may add Minnesota and New Jersey to his portfolio.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 10:58:21 PM
Only if Cory Booker is his opponent.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Legbiter on October 13, 2019, 11:10:30 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 10:58:21 PM
Only if Cory Booker is his opponent.

What I've seen of him I like. For instance he's apparently very pro-nuclear power to reduce carbon emissions. Alas, you're apparently either getting Biden or Warren vs. Trump since Bernie had his heart attack.  :mellow:
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
He's a vegan and he's from New Jersey so that's two strikes against him.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Legbiter on October 13, 2019, 11:45:54 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
He's a vegan...

:o :weep:

Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Valmy on October 13, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
This is actually kind of a hard question to answer. I have had a low opinion of the guy for decades and he is who I thought he was. But, you know, I figured that he would do his thing and if it did not work out he would be held accountable and if it worked out then I would have to eat crow. Instead it seems like he just fucks shit up and his position is only slightly hurt, which is concerning. I mean the Republicans did lose the House in 2018 but it was hardly some kind of resounding denunciation. So I guess in that sense it has gone slightly worse than I thought.

I hope that the economy holds together and we manage to hold him accountable for his failures either because of his illegal actions through the impeachment process or through the election. But who knows. I am really concerned we do get a recession that drives him from office and then the Democrats are fucked because hey a recession is going on just like what happened in 2008. I mean it is not like you can just flip a switch on something like that.

The other problem is that the population remains eager for radical change and so even after Trump leaves office at some point on or before 2025 who knows what the next chapter will be. I mean Donald is ancient and will be dead or incapable soon, but the factors that empowered him will still be there.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: The Larch on October 14, 2019, 05:30:35 AM
I'd say much worse. That he'd be a buffoon and a pitiful president was more or less taken for granted. That he'd be followed along so gladly by the Republicans and the government apparatus they've shaped is much more worrying and damaging, and how he's poisoning public debate will have dire consequences in the future. If things continue going badly it'll be a pretty difficult ride until the elections.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Josephus on October 14, 2019, 07:03:08 AM
much worse. I had low expectations, but I thought the office itself would contain him. That all the career politicians and diplomats would keep him in check I also thought that after a couple years, he would get bored of the whole thing. I guess i didn't realize he was an egomaniac psychopath.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: mongers on October 14, 2019, 07:23:50 AM
Quote from: Josephus on October 14, 2019, 07:03:08 AM
much worse. I had low expectations, but I thought the office itself would contain him. That all the career politicians and diplomats would keep him in check I also thought that after a couple years, he would get bored of the whole thing. I guess i didn't realize he was an egomaniac psychopath.

Indeed.

I didn't have such a high expectations of his administration as you did and it's still turned out worse, like a wrecking ball taken to the foreign policy infrastructure.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Razgovory on October 14, 2019, 08:49:56 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on October 13, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
His twitter beefs are as funny as when he campaigned. Pleasantly surprised by how robust the American economy has been. Democrats and the left in general have been an unmitigated disaster, combine impotent rage & cringe with the lunatic spookshow politics of the last three years and I'm left scratching my head. Likely that Trump wins a second term, may add Minnesota and New Jersey to his portfolio.

Let's not dance around the big question:  Trump came to power promising the persecution of Muslims (Muslim Ban!) and non-whites.  Has he delivered sufficiently on this front for you?
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: viper37 on October 15, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2019, 11:38:03 AM
In a bit over a year Americans are called upon voting for a new president.

With about 15 months to go till the inauguration of the new and/or old president, has the Trump presidency met your expectations?
About as bad as I predicted when I was told to get laid.  Grumbler assured me I was delusional back then.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Malthus on October 15, 2019, 02:10:57 PM
Quote from: Josephus on October 14, 2019, 07:03:08 AM
much worse. I had low expectations, but I thought the office itself would contain him. That all the career politicians and diplomats would keep him in check I also thought that after a couple years, he would get bored of the whole thing. I guess i didn't realize he was an egomaniac psychopath.

This.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Grey Fox on October 15, 2019, 02:16:51 PM
Slightly better.

I expected some sort of massive invasion of a country.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: The Brain on October 15, 2019, 02:29:52 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 15, 2019, 02:16:51 PM
Slightly better.

I expected some sort of massive invasion of a country.

You got a massive clusterfuck of a country.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Grey Fox on October 15, 2019, 02:38:55 PM
I expected a even worse deterioration of american institutes, so yeah.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: grumbler on October 15, 2019, 03:55:55 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 15, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
About as bad as I predicted when I was told to get laid.  Grumbler assured me I was delusional back then.

Since you decided to call me out, I will just note that you were delusional back then and are delusional now about how accurately you "predicted" things.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: viper37 on October 16, 2019, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 15, 2019, 03:55:55 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 15, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
About as bad as I predicted when I was told to get laid.  Grumbler assured me I was delusional back then.

Since you decided to call me out, I will just note that you were delusional back then and are delusional now about how accurately you "predicted" things.
Ok, so declaring open season on immigrants sort of never happenned?
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on October 17, 2019, 12:44:06 AM
Slightly better. He didn't succeed in repealing Obamacare. The corruption and clownishness was to be expected.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Razgovory on October 17, 2019, 12:56:01 AM
Mostly Trump is different than I thought.  I didn't know he would turn out to be a coward.  I didn't think he would have much pull with Congress and would be an ineffective legislator.  That was true in his first year.  Now he has broken the Tea party and bent the party to his will.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Valmy on October 17, 2019, 10:35:28 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on October 17, 2019, 12:44:06 AM
Slightly better. He didn't succeed in repealing Obamacare. The corruption and clownishness was to be expected.

Success through failure is one of Trump's saving graces.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Valmy on October 17, 2019, 10:41:21 AM
One thing I am starting to think of is maybe Trump is not entirely wrong with what we are doing with China. I mean I would have preferred the TPP as a way to contain Chinese excesses. However, based on the obvious power Beijing wields over American companies I am starting to think that our policy of engaging economically with the Chinese state to try to get them to moderate might be a failure. Perhaps a more aggressive posture, complete with a trade war, is what we need to be doing. I don't know...both the outcomes of being friendly or hostile to Beijing seem like they will lead to bad outcomes. It is a problem.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Maladict on October 17, 2019, 10:51:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 17, 2019, 10:41:21 AM
It is a problem.

It's inevitable.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: frunk on October 17, 2019, 11:06:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 17, 2019, 10:41:21 AM
One thing I am starting to think of is maybe Trump is not entirely wrong with what we are doing with China. I mean I would have preferred the TPP as a way to contain Chinese excesses. However, based on the obvious power Beijing wields over American companies I am starting to think that our policy of engaging economically with the Chinese state to try to get them to moderate might be a failure. Perhaps a more aggressive posture, complete with a trade war, is what we need to be doing. I don't know...both the outcomes of being friendly or hostile to Beijing seem like they will lead to bad outcomes. It is a problem.

I think China feels freer to apply this pressure precisely because Trump has been imposing these tariffs.  It's another way to strike back with very little risk because we have an administration that is irrational, erratic and doesn't care about freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Oexmelin on October 17, 2019, 05:16:18 PM
Perhaps China feels freer. But Xi has felt freer for a while. Chinese nationalism has been built on taking back its rightful place, and it was, and would continue to be extremely naive to think that showing ourselves to be addicted to Chinese goods and Chinese money would make them more restrained. Chinese propaganda has switched gear: I cannot foresee a moment in the future when it will be scaled back to some position of subservience, and I have a hard time seeing how "free" market champions will suddenly realize Chinese market and Chinese money comes with increasingly tight strings.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 17, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
he's from New Jersey so that's two strikes against him.

:mad:
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: crazy canuck on October 17, 2019, 06:07:53 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 17, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
he's from New Jersey so that's two strikes against him.

:mad:

Ok, three
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 17, 2019, 06:37:08 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 17, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
he's from New Jersey so that's two strikes against him.

:mad:

Who the fuck are you?
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 18, 2019, 03:09:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 17, 2019, 06:37:08 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 17, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
he's from New Jersey so that's two strikes against him.

:mad:

Who the fuck are you?

:hug:

Also, no cropping.  Just for you. :P
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: Ancient Demon on October 20, 2019, 02:17:27 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on October 13, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
Democrats and the left in general have been an unmitigated disaster, combine impotent rage & cringe with the lunatic spookshow politics of the last three years and I'm left scratching my head.

Totally agree.
Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 20, 2019, 10:42:08 PM
The Bush administration did some really awful things, but they always had reasons why they did those things.  Usually they were terrible reasons, but in retrospect there was some reassurance in the fact that at least implicitly they accepted that actions and policies needed to have reasons to back them; that reason was still a basic currency of political discussion.  If say a John McCain dissented and said that maybe torturing people wasn't such a good idea, and not in accordance with American values, the Bushies didn't just shout him down or mock him but they made arguments why they thought he was wrong. The arguments were wrongheaded, even sometimes offensive, but they did assume the form of arguments.

We are so long past that now that it even that thin veneer of reasoned argument almost seems as antiquated as Ken Burns' Civil War letters or the debates in the Federalist Papers.  What's left is the shrill, deafening noise of Trump's inane shouting nonsense; continuous and unending.  What's left is the spectacle of Republican Senators and lawmakers going through the daily pretense of accepting  the rabid foaming of a confused, egotistical dolt as pearls of wisdom.

Whatever I expected, there is no way to imagine the experience of living through it.  You can imagine it happening but not the experience of it . Impeachment, election, divine intervention, whatever, it just needs to stop.

Title: Re: Is the Trump presidency as good/bad as you expected?
Post by: mongers on October 21, 2019, 07:19:59 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 20, 2019, 10:42:08 PM
The Bush administration did some really awful things, but they always had reasons why they did those things.  Usually they were terrible reasons, but in retrospect there was some reassurance in the fact that at least implicitly they accepted that actions and policies needed to have reasons to back them; that reason was still a basic currency of political discussion.  If say a John McCain dissented and said that maybe torturing people wasn't such a good idea, and not in accordance with American values, the Bushies didn't just shout him down or mock him but they made arguments why they thought he was wrong. The arguments were wrongheaded, even sometimes offensive, but they did assume the form of arguments.

We are so long past that now that it even that thin veneer of reasoned argument almost seems as antiquated as Ken Burns' Civil War letters or the debates in the Federalist Papers.  What's left is the shrill, deafening noise of Trump's inane shouting nonsense; continuous and unending.  What's left is the spectacle of Republican Senators and lawmakers going through the daily pretense of accepting  the rabid foaming of a confused, egotistical dolt as pearls of wisdom.

Whatever I expected, there is no way to imagine the experience of living through it.  You can imagine it happening but not the experience of it . Impeachment, election, divine intervention, whatever, it just needs to stop.

America needs some smoke filled rooms.  :secret: