Languish.org

General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: garbon on May 15, 2019, 03:49:28 AM

Title: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 15, 2019, 03:49:28 AM
I don't think I have much to say other than...wow Alabama and Georgia, you never cease to disappoint. :ultra:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/abortion-bill-alabama-passes-ban-six-weeks-us-no-exemptions-vote-latest

QuoteAlabama's Republican-controlled state senate passed a bill Tuesday to outlaw abortion, making it a crime to perform the procedure at any stage of pregnancy.

The strictest-in-the-nation abortion ban allows an exception only when the woman's health is at serious risk, and sets up a legal battle that supporters hope will lead to the supreme court overturning its landmark ruling that legalized abortion nationwide.

The measure contains no exception for rape and incest, after lawmakers voted down an amendment Tuesday that would have added such an exception.

The legislation, which passed by a vote of 25-6, makes it a class A felony for a doctor to perform an abortion, punishable by 10 to 99 years in prison. Women would not face criminal penalties for getting an abortion.

It goes further than any other state has to restrict abortion. Other states, including neighboring Georgia, have instituted bans on abortion after about six weeks into pregnancy.

The vote came after a battle broke out over whether to allow legal abortions for women who become pregnant due to rape or incest, an issue that divided Republicans who otherwise supported outlawing abortion.

Last week, chaos erupted on the floor when Republican leaders stripped out the rape exception without a roll call vote, leading the final vote to be postponed. It got a full vote on Tuesday, but ultimately failed.

Lawmakers approved the legislation after a debate that stretched more than four hours, where minority Democrats introduced a slew of amendments in an attempt to block it.

"You don't have to raise that child. You don't have to carry that child. You don't have to provide for that child. You don't have to do anything for that child, but yet you want to make the decision for that woman," the state senator Vivian Davis Figures told the bill's proponents.

She introduced amendments that would require the state to expand Medicaid, force legislators who vote for the measure to pay the state's legal bills, or make it a crime for men to get vasectomies. All failed.

Figures questioned the backers' resistance to adding an exception for rape and incest. "Do you know what it's like to be raped?" she said. "Why would you not want a woman to at least have that exception for such a horrific act?"

The bill has already passed the house. It must now be signed by the state's governor, Kay Ivey.

The legislation is poised for an immediate legal challenge and to be overturned at least by the lower courts.

The ACLU and Planned Parenthood "will file a lawsuit to stop this unconstitutional ban and protect every woman's right to make her own choice about her healthcare, her body, and her future. This bill will not take effect anytime in the near future, and abortion will remain a safe, legal medical procedure at all clinics in Alabama," the ACLU of Alabama said on Tuesday.

"Alabama politicians will forever live in infamy for this vote," said Staci Fox, the president of Planned Parenthood Southeast Advocates, in a statement. "In the coming days we will be mounting the fight of our lives – we will take this to court and ensure abortion remains safe and legal."

Backers of the ban are hoping the fight will go all the way to the supreme court, which ruled in the 1973 Roe v Wade case that women must be allowed to get abortions up to the point where the fetus can survive outside the womb.

"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."

The bill's architects resisted the rape exception, saying they wanted a clean ban to present to the courts, and believed exceptions would violate the principle that an unborn child is a human life.

Opponents said the bill's backers would squander public money defending a ban that will likely be struck down. "Alabama taxpayers are going to be footing the bill for this unconstitutional action," said the state senator Linda Coleman-Madison. But Chambliss said the cost was worth it if the legislation is able to prevent abortions. "That's pennies per baby," he said.

The bill is part of a trend across the US in which Republican-controlled states are attempting to put new restrictions on abortion, gambling that they will fare better in the courts following the confirmation of new federal judges and supreme court justices picked by the Trump administration.

Opponents predict the legislation will drive doctors to leave Alabama, which already has some of the highest rates of infant mortality and cervical cancer.

Outside the Alabama statehouse, protesters wore costumes from The Handmaid's Tale and carried signs, one reading: "Alabama does not own me."

...
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 04:38:28 AM
The proposed vasectomy amendment is retarded. "I don't want to ban abortion, so how about we ban birth control too."
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Monoriu on May 15, 2019, 05:01:23 AM
This sounds rather extreme.  Aren't they supposed to be for freedom and such? 
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Grey Fox on May 15, 2019, 07:44:08 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 15, 2019, 05:01:23 AM
This sounds rather extreme.  Aren't they supposed to be for freedom and such?

Who? Republicans? No.  :lol: :(
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 07:50:11 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 04:38:28 AM
The proposed vasectomy amendment is retarded. "I don't want to ban abortion, so how about we ban birth control too."

Of course it is retarded. That's the point.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 08:11:35 AM
I just think it's a waste of time. You can make amendments that potentially torpedo the bill, but that one ain't it.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 09:29:15 AM
I think the amendment should criminalize Viagra-type drugs. If it's not God's will that men get an erection, then it just shouldn't happen. 
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2019, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 07:50:11 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 04:38:28 AM
The proposed vasectomy amendment is retarded. "I don't want to ban abortion, so how about we ban birth control too."

Of course it is retarded. That's the point.

Some people don't get subtlety or irony.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 10:56:18 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 09:29:15 AM
I think the amendment should criminalize Viagra-type drugs. If it's not God's will that men get an erection, then it just shouldn't happen. 

Hell half those wackos would probably be all for it.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Brain on May 15, 2019, 11:01:32 AM
The Party of Trump strikes again.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2019, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 07:50:11 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 04:38:28 AM
The proposed vasectomy amendment is retarded. "I don't want to ban abortion, so how about we ban birth control too."

Of course it is retarded. That's the point.

Some people don't get subtlety or irony.

Not exactly subtle, nor truly ironic. But go on patting yourself on the back.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:04:29 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 10:56:18 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 09:29:15 AM
I think the amendment should criminalize Viagra-type drugs. If it's not God's will that men get an erection, then it just shouldn't happen. 

Hell half those wackos would probably be all for it.

It would make sense.  They are all about God creating babies, not the sexual act - no need for erections.

Quote"When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Brain on May 15, 2019, 11:09:04 AM
:rolleyes: It's the stork that puts his penis inside the woman. Not God.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 11:09:18 AM
It reminds me a bit of how people were talking about divine right citizenship of the US vs. inferior man created citizenship back during the birther stuff. I mean God made George III our king as well.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 11:09:18 AM
It reminds me a bit of how people were talking about divine right citizenship of the US vs. inferior man created citizenship back during the birther stuff. I mean God made George III our king as well.

Logic has no place in a mob-rule society, and mob-rule societies is what we are heading towards for the next couple of decades.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 11:09:18 AM
It reminds me a bit of how people were talking about divine right citizenship of the US vs. inferior man created citizenship back during the birther stuff. I mean God made George III our king as well.

Logic has no place in a mob-rule society, and mob-rule societies is what we are heading towards for the next couple of decades.

It makes sense from the perspective of someone who believes that a God governs all actions.  A good many people in the US seem to hold that belief.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Caliga on May 15, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Yes, and these same idiots are usually huge fans of the death penalty.  Did God not create the lives of murderers too? :hmm:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 15, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Yes, and these same idiots are usually huge fans of the death penalty.  Did God not create the lives of murderers too? :hmm:

Well and also the same individuals who don't want to fund programs to take care of all these children they are forcing women to carry to term.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:29:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 15, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Yes, and these same idiots are usually huge fans of the death penalty.  Did God not create the lives of murderers too? :hmm:

Well and also the same individuals who don't want to fund programs to take care of all these children they are forcing women to carry to term.

Well that is the thing. Ok so we have these tens of thousands of babies carried to term and then dumped on the social services. We are doing a disgraceful job caring for the ones we already have under state stewardship.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

I thought the laws were explicit that they would prosecute the doctor, not the patient.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:29:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 15, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Yes, and these same idiots are usually huge fans of the death penalty.  Did God not create the lives of murderers too? :hmm:

Well and also the same individuals who don't want to fund programs to take care of all these children they are forcing women to carry to term.

Well that is the thing. Ok so we have these tens of thousands of babies carried to term and then dumped on the social services. We are doing a disgraceful job caring for the ones we already have under state stewardship.

There's a shortage of adoptable babies in north america - that's why you see so many families adopting from overseas.

It's the toddlers onward that we do a shitty job looking after in government care.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:39:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:29:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 15, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Yes, and these same idiots are usually huge fans of the death penalty.  Did God not create the lives of murderers too? :hmm:

Well and also the same individuals who don't want to fund programs to take care of all these children they are forcing women to carry to term.

Well that is the thing. Ok so we have these tens of thousands of babies carried to term and then dumped on the social services. We are doing a disgraceful job caring for the ones we already have under state stewardship.

There's a shortage of adoptable babies in north america - that's why you see so many families adopting from overseas.

It's the toddlers onward that we do a shitty job looking after in government care.

I mean if we want to generalize, unless these mothers are immediately giving up their unwanted children, seems like they likely would only enter as toddlers once state has case to take them away.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:40:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

I thought the laws were explicit that they would prosecute the doctor, not the patient.

Not for Georgia though...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/09/georgia-effective-abortion-ban-cruelty-anti-choice-movement
QuoteThose who leave the state for an abortion, or who help others leave the state for an abortion, can be charged with conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to up to 10 years in prison.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:40:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:37:20 PM
There's a shortage of adoptable babies in north america - that's why you see so many families adopting from overseas.

It's the toddlers onward that we do a shitty job looking after in government care.

Well ok but how big of a shortfall are we talking about? And it takes a pretty short time for babies to become toddlers.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:40:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
I thought the laws were explicit that they would prosecute the doctor, not the patient.

Not for Georgia though...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/09/georgia-effective-abortion-ban-cruelty-anti-choice-movement
QuoteThose who leave the state for an abortion, or who help others leave the state for an abortion, can be charged with conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to up to 10 years in prison.

Yikes.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:44:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

I thought the laws were explicit that they would prosecute the doctor, not the patient.

Which state? Georgia is charging the women with murder, even if they leave the state for the abortion. Also, they risk second-degree murder charges for miscarriages if it's determined that they did something that may have caused the miscarriage.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:46:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:37:20 PM
There's a shortage of adoptable babies in north america - that's why you see so many families adopting from overseas.

It's the toddlers onward that we do a shitty job looking after in government care.

That's not at all why people go overseas to adopt. The process to adopt a newborn infant in the US is generally more onerous, more expensive, and there's the significant chance that the birth parents will decide not to give the child up anyway, even after the adoptive parents have paid for everything. The adoptive parents then have no recourse.

And the US does a shitty job of caring for mothers, babies, and families, period.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 12:53:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:40:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

I thought the laws were explicit that they would prosecute the doctor, not the patient.

Not for Georgia though...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/09/georgia-effective-abortion-ban-cruelty-anti-choice-movement
QuoteThose who leave the state for an abortion, or who help others leave the state for an abortion, can be charged with conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to up to 10 years in prison.

You'd think that would be impossible since they lack jurisdiction, but that hasn't stopped the sex tourism laws from being enforced. Perhaps it's a matter where the feds can do it and the states can't?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:53:34 PM
If the Republican party's intention was to put women on notice that we're about to lose any semblance of bodily autonomy, they've accomplished their goal. They've taken away nearly all of the grants to give out free contraceptives, they've removed the requirement that contraceptives be treated like any other drugs, and now they're outright calling women murderers for not wanting to risk their life and health on a bunch of cells.

I've resisted calling "Republicans" the issue because of Trump, but it's pretty apparent now where they stand as a group regarding women. (They've shown their colors regarding race and LGBTQ time and again, as well.)

With the stacked Supreme Court, Roe v Wade is dead.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:54:27 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2019, 12:53:09 PM
You'd think that would be impossible since they lack jurisdiction, but that hasn't stopped the sex tourism laws from being enforced. Perhaps it's a matter where the feds can do it and the states can't?  :hmm:

The Feds wouldn't be involved. Which is why I asked the question. How is this even enforceable?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:29:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 15, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that's when we as government have to step in," said the state senator Clyde Chambliss. "When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman's womb, it's not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That's what I believe."
Yes, and these same idiots are usually huge fans of the death penalty.  Did God not create the lives of murderers too? :hmm:

Well and also the same individuals who don't want to fund programs to take care of all these children they are forcing women to carry to term.

Well that is the thing. Ok so we have these tens of thousands of babies carried to term and then dumped on the social services. We are doing a disgraceful job caring for the ones we already have under state stewardship.

There's a shortage of adoptable babies in north america - that's why you see so many families adopting from overseas.

It's the toddlers onward that we do a shitty job looking after in government care.

First what is this "we" stuff.

Second, the US does in fact does poor job supporting babies

QuoteCompared to 19 similar OECD countries, U.S. babies were three times more likely to die from extreme immaturity and 2.3 times more likely to experience sudden infant death syndrome between 2001 and 2010, the most recent years for which comparable data is available across all the countries. If the U.S. had kept pace with the OECD's overall decline in infant mortality since 1960, that would have resulted in about 300,000 fewer infant deaths in America over the course of 50 years, the report found.

The reasons the U.S. has fallen behind include higher poverty rates relative to other developed countries and a relatively weak social safety net, says lead author Ashish Thakrar, medical resident at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and Health System.

http://time.com/5090112/infant-mortality-rate-usa/

It is entirely correct to observe that the very people who go on about the sanctity of life to support this law will do nothing to enact laws which support all those unwanted births.  They are all Fundamentalist Christian Republicans after all.  If the baby dies it will be by God's hand, much better than allowing a woman to obtain an abortion - or so their logic seems to go.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:56:18 PM
A few thoughts on this:

1. Personally, I'm pro-life, and if a pregnant woman ever asked for my advice (none have, and none ever will) I'd recommend against an abortion (day after pills and like are a different story though).

2. As a matter of public policy, while I would like to see some restrictions put in place in Canada (where we have no abortion law at all), I would not want to see the abortion outlawed.

3. No matter what you think of abortion, Roe v Wade seemed like a bad precedent.  I can't see how you can read in abortion rights in the US Bill of Rights.  I feel like abortion is a matter that should be decided by legislators, not judges.

4. I have met a few people from my time in politics who care very deeply about abortion, and they always appeared to be very genuine and compassionate people.  But there weren't that many of them.

5. But what seems to be going on in the US right now seems to have very little to do with concern about unborn babies.  It frankly seems like more of this "own the Libs" Trump-style culture wars than with anyone sitting down and saying "you know I think this would make for good public policy".
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: FunkMonk on May 15, 2019, 01:10:53 PM
Pat Robertson said this law goes too far and will likely lose in the Supreme Court.

Even Pat Robertson  :lol:

It will be enjoyable to see Republican heads explode when Roberts sides with the liberals in this law. I'll fear for his safety afterward, though.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: frunk on May 15, 2019, 01:14:15 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 15, 2019, 01:10:53 PM
Pat Robertson said this law goes too far and will likely lose in the Supreme Court.

Even Pat Robertson  :lol:

It will be enjoyable to see Republican heads explode when Roberts sides with the liberals in this law. I'll fear for his safety afterward, though.

It's so dumb that I can't tell if Repubs really have gone that far off the deep end, or they hope that it will fail at the Supreme Court so that getting more Supreme Court nominees remains an election issue in 2020.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 02:29:18 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:56:18 PM
5. But what seems to be going on in the US right now seems to have very little to do with concern about unborn babies.  It frankly seems like more of this "own the Libs" Trump-style culture wars than with anyone sitting down and saying "you know I think this would make for good public policy".

The US has never had compassionate pro-lifers, in my memory. They have never been of the mind to work to find multiple solutions, like expanding sex education, offering free or low-cost birth control, holding fathers equally as accountable, or providing safe, clear alternatives that aren't religious-based. It has always, in the history of abortion rights in the US, been entirely about demanding that women not have sex so they don't get pregnant. And if they do, then they just have to live with the consequences.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
What's the over/under on Kavanaugh voting to uphold "established law"? :hmm:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2019, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
What's the over/under on Kavanaugh voting to uphold "established law"? :hmm:

You can't do an over/under on a yes/no bet. :nerd:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 04:08:36 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
What's the over/under on Kavanaugh voting to uphold "established law"? :hmm:

According to the NYTimes, not entirely clear but the more likely route is to undermine access to abortion slowly over time.  When it comes to overturning completely:


Quote"What we don't know," Professor Franklin said, "is the extent to which either Chief Justice Roberts or Justice Kavanaugh feels sufficiently bound by 50 years of precedent, or by a desire not to be viewed by the public as discarding that precedent for political-ideological reasons, to pull back from the brink."

Melissa Murray, a law professor at New York University, said much would turn on Chief Justice Roberts, who might have conflicting impulses.

"Recent departures and appointments, coupled with an increasing skepticism of established precedents, suggests the Supreme Court is more amenable than ever to overruling Roe," she said. "The recent spate of restrictive abortion regulations reflects this new reality."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/15/us/politics/supreme-court-abortion.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 15, 2019, 04:14:17 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 02:29:18 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 15, 2019, 12:56:18 PM
5. But what seems to be going on in the US right now seems to have very little to do with concern about unborn babies.  It frankly seems like more of this "own the Libs" Trump-style culture wars than with anyone sitting down and saying "you know I think this would make for good public policy".

The US has never had compassionate pro-lifers, in my memory. They have never been of the mind to work to find multiple solutions, like expanding sex education, offering free or low-cost birth control, holding fathers equally as accountable, or providing safe, clear alternatives that aren't religious-based. It has always, in the history of abortion rights in the US, been entirely about demanding that women not have sex so they don't get pregnant. And if they do, then they just have to live with the consequences.

As a conservative, I'm calling bullshit on this.  Though I in no way claim to be a compassionate conservative.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 05:16:27 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

Better start dusting off those old fugitive slave precedents . . .
Alabama can define whatever it wants to as a crime, constitution permitting.  Where things get tricky is when the invoke the rendition clause under Article IV to bring people back to Alabama for trial based on acts entirely committed in another state.

Imagine (for example) California retaliates by criminalizing handgun sales and then makes it a crime to leave the state to purchase a gun.

This is the kind of interstate shit show that helped lead to the last civil war.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 05:21:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2019, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
What's the over/under on Kavanaugh voting to uphold "established law"? :hmm:

You can't do an over/under on a yes/no bet. :nerd:

Also no point in betting against a sure thing.  Justice Blutarsky was put on the Court for a reason and it wasn't for his vote to add Pabst Blue Ribbon to the Supreme Court cafeteria.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2019, 05:29:26 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 05:21:25 PM
Also no point in betting against a sure thing.  Justice Blutarsky was put on the Court for a reason and it wasn't for his vote to add Pabst Blue Ribbon to the Supreme Court cafeteria.

What odds you offering?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 05:40:58 PM
You'd have to define outcomes. 
There is a lot of ground to cover between reaffirming Roe and upholding the AL and GA laws as written without questioning one jot or comma.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2019, 05:57:09 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 05:40:58 PM
You'd have to define outcomes. 
There is a lot of ground to cover between reaffirming Roe and upholding the AL and GA laws as written without questioning one jot or comma.

OK, define an outcome.  What was the sure thing you believed there was no point in betting against?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 06:01:54 PM
Sure thing is that he will not vote to reaffirm the Roe precedent.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 12:38:36 AM
Quote from: dps on May 15, 2019, 04:14:17 PM
As a conservative, I'm calling bullshit on this.  Though I in no way claim to be a compassionate conservative.

I'm game. Show me where the Republicans have taken a leading, active role in any of the things I brought up.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 12:39:46 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 06:01:54 PM
Sure thing is that he will not vote to reaffirm the Roe precedent.

But... but... but it's settled law! He said so!

I despise the man. May he die an early death.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2019, 04:29:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

It's literally the Fugitive Womb Act.

There was a similar law 150 some years ago that caused a bit of a problem for us.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Malthus on May 16, 2019, 07:41:41 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 05:16:27 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

Better start dusting off those old fugitive slave precedents . . .
Alabama can define whatever it wants to as a crime, constitution permitting.  Where things get tricky is when the invoke the rendition clause under Article IV to bring people back to Alabama for trial based on acts entirely committed in another state.

Imagine (for example) California retaliates by criminalizing handgun sales and then makes it a crime to leave the state to purchase a gun.

This is the kind of interstate shit show that helped lead to the last civil war.

You would think Alabama would get tired of this ...
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 16, 2019, 08:41:08 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2019, 04:29:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 15, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Lawtalkers, I have a question about the whole "If they leave the state for an abortion, we'll still try them for murder" part of these laws.

How does that work? I mean, that strikes me as not okay.

It's literally the Fugitive Womb Act.

There was a similar law 150 some years ago that caused a bit of a problem for us.

You do realize that the Fugitive Slave Act was a federal law, not a state law, don't you?

Though apparently you don't know what "literally" means, so maybe you don't get the distinction between federal law and state law, either.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:34:03 AM
Alabama does a crap job not just of taking care of children once they're born, but of taking care of them in utero, too.

Make the mother stay pregnant but do fuck all to help her get through the pregnancy safely.

Alabama sucks and here are all the ways they do (https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/16/health/alabama-treatment-of-living/index.html?utm_source=fbCNN&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2019-05-16T13%3A01%3A02&utm_term=link&r=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F)
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 12:38:36 AM
Quote from: dps on May 15, 2019, 04:14:17 PM
As a conservative, I'm calling bullshit on this.  Though I in no way claim to be a compassionate conservative.

I'm game. Show me where the Republicans have taken a leading, active role in any of the things I brought up.

Dps, I'm actually serious on this. Are there any Republican-led programs or legislative actions in the US that have the intent to reduce pregnancies other than the thoroughly disproved method of abstinence?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: derspiess on May 16, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Abstinence works every time it's used  ;) :P :ph34r:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2019, 10:04:54 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 16, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Abstinence works every time it's used  ;) :P :ph34r:

Actually it has failed every single time it has been used as a public policy.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 10:08:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2019, 10:04:54 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 16, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Abstinence works every time it's used  ;) :P :ph34r:

Actually it has failed every single time it has been used as a public policy.

:yes:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2019, 10:09:57 AM
I mean if the church failed to get people to be abstinent under the threat of eternal damnation I am not sure what mere secular governments can do.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Caliga on May 16, 2019, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:34:03 AM
16T13%3A01%3A02&utm_term=link&r=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F]Alabama sucks and here are all the ways they do[/url]
I've been to Alabama and I really liked it.  Just be sure to become a white male like me first if you want to visit. :sleep:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: katmai on May 16, 2019, 10:44:55 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 16, 2019, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:34:03 AM
16T13%3A01%3A02&utm_term=link&r=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F]Alabama sucks and here are all the ways they do[/url]
I've been to Alabama and I really liked it.  Just be sure to become a white male like me first if you want to visit. :sleep:
Learn to crop you dolt.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2019, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 16, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Abstinence works every time it's used  ;) :P :ph34r:

Well, no, actually it doesn't. Your party is now actually enforcing childbirth when the women practices absitinence but someone rapes her.

So no, you are actually and obviously fucking wrong in the very context of the law you are so smugly defending.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Syt on May 16, 2019, 01:32:50 PM
https://local.theonion.com/woman-walking-alone-at-night-picks-up-pace-after-spotti-1834815925?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

QuoteWoman Walking Alone At Night Picks Up Pace After Spotting Truck Full Of Alabama Lawmakers Slowly Following Her

MONTGOMERY, AL—Quickening her pace as the vehicle flashed its brights, Alabama woman Alison Kyles, 29, reportedly hurried towards home Thursday after spotting a pickup truck full of Alabama lawmakers slowly following her. "At first, I thought I was just being paranoid when I saw that old Chevy full of state legislators creeping along behind me a few blocks back, but then they turned down the same alleyway as me and I started to panic," said Kyles, who glanced over her shoulder in visible distress as she heard Senator Clyde Chambliss repeatedly revving the truck's engine. "They're clearly riled up after a day of legislating and are just out to cause some trouble. Oh, God, I think that's Del Marsh leaning out of the passenger window and trying to holler something at me. Christ, I'm just going to keep my head down and hope all of them pass me by." At press time, Kyles had broken into a full-on sprint after realizing in horror that she had accidentally turned onto the street directly in front of the Alabama State House.

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--K9NS25zt--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/npola6jwiqjbfxenn0yh.jpg)
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 03:24:56 PM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 08:41:08 AM
You do realize that the Fugitive Slave Act was a federal law, not a state law, don't you?

There was a federal Fugitive Slave Act, but the slave states also passed their own laws criminalizing providing aid and assistance to fugitive slaves and empowering slave catchers to operate under color of state law, while at the same time some free states passed personal liberty laws to protect what their laws deemed to be free persons.

The federal FSA came about because of conflict between state laws and it firmly took the slave state side.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 03:26:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2019, 10:09:57 AM
I mean if the church failed to get people to be abstinent under the threat of eternal damnation I am not sure what mere secular governments can do.

Well the Church mostly succeeded in getting its priests to stop impregnatating women.
Turns out there was a small hitch, though.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: derspiess on May 16, 2019, 03:31:56 PM
Ooh, an f-bomb.  So edgy.  So Throbby.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 16, 2019, 03:31:56 PM
Ooh, an f-bomb.  So edgy.  So Throbby.

You know, the thing is... you can't defend these laws. None of you conservatives can. You know they're wrong. You know they do not bring about the changes you claim to want (fewer abortions). You say crap like this and dps "takes offense", but at the end of the day, you have no real defense.

Your party has jumped the shark, and you know it. There is absolutely no way to defend what they're doing to women. And don't pull the whole "it's about the baby!!" thing, because these new laws with absolutely nothing else to help prevent pregnancies show without a shadow of a doubt that it's not about the babies. It's about controlling women.

But still... you can't just say, "Man... this is messed up."
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
Dps, I'm actually serious on this. Are there any Republican-led programs or legislative actions in the US that have the intent to reduce pregnancies other than the thoroughly disproved method of abstinence?

Their environmental policy could increase miscarriages.
Every little bit helps, right?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 04:40:21 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
Dps, I'm actually serious on this. Are there any Republican-led programs or legislative actions in the US that have the intent to reduce pregnancies other than the thoroughly disproved method of abstinence?

Their environmental policy could increase miscarriages.
Every little bit helps, right?

Not when part of Georgia's law includes an investigation into every miscarriage to ensure that the mothers didn't do anything to try to induce it. Because you know, that's what a mother who's just lost a baby wants to deal with.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 16, 2019, 05:22:07 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 04:40:21 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 04:11:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
Dps, I'm actually serious on this. Are there any Republican-led programs or legislative actions in the US that have the intent to reduce pregnancies other than the thoroughly disproved method of abstinence?

Their environmental policy could increase miscarriages.
Every little bit helps, right?

Not when part of Georgia's law includes an investigation into every miscarriage to ensure that the mothers didn't do anything to try to induce it. Because you know, that's what a mother who's just lost a baby wants to deal with.

Ms. Atwood is both horrified and nodding her head in self acknowledgment that she warned us this could happen.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Razgovory on May 16, 2019, 05:44:26 PM
Missouri is passing a similar law right now.  The governor is thrilled about the prospect of signing it. 

I personally find abortion to be disgusting, but I am loath to outright ban things due to personal distaste.  What is more disgusting is that a man can rape a women and get far, far less prison time than a doctor who provides a voluntary service.  In fact, a man can kidnap and rape and murder a woman and still get less time.  That is truly repulsive.

In my mind the way to reduce abortion is subsidize birth control and make it more accessible to woman.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 12:38:36 AM
Quote from: dps on May 15, 2019, 04:14:17 PM
As a conservative, I'm calling bullshit on this.  Though I in no way claim to be a compassionate conservative.

I'm game. Show me where the Republicans have taken a leading, active role in any of the things I brought up.

Dps, I'm actually serious on this. Are there any Republican-led programs or legislative actions in the US that have the intent to reduce pregnancies other than the thoroughly disproved method of abstinence?

Republicans, or conservatives, or pro-lifers?  I'll grant that there is a lot of overlap, but they aren't exactly the same groups of people, either.  I personally was a conservative Democrat from 1980-2008, now I'm a conservative Republican.  I'm not a pro-lifer, nor am I exactly pro-choice, either. 

I've never really posted my views on abortion before, because I'm not really sure how I feel about it.  To me, it all comes down to when a developing fetus becomes a human life.  If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.  OTOH, if it's not a human being, then it is the woman's body and her choice.  The thing is, I don't know when the fetus becomes a human being.  I don't really think it's at the point of conception (so I don't really have a problem with day-after pills) but I do think the fetus does become a human being sometime before the completion of a full-term pregnancy.  As a practical matter, I think the Supreme Court actually articulated a reasonable standard when it put forward the 3-trimester standard (though I also think that their decision in Row v Wade was a very poor decision).

I used to think that technology would provide an answer here, that science would eventually be able to tell when a fetus becomes human.  I've come to realize, though, that that is extremely unlikely to happen--that it's probably actually a matter of semantics, and a human is whatever we want to define as human.  That's incredibly unsatisfactory, though;  after all, much of the Western world used to define blacks as not fully human.

As for a direct answer to you question, I don't know exactly who did or didn't provide leadership in all the policy initiatives on the matters you mentioned, but on one of them at least, the matter of holding fathers equally accountable, as I recall there was broad, bipartisan support for trying to make deadbeat dads pay child support.  I certainly don't think it was just liberal, pro-choice Democrats who thought it was a good idea.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Syt on May 17, 2019, 12:10:49 AM
I wish the GOP cared as much about life after birth, but nope. It's "fend for yourself, sucker" right afterwards.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Josquius on May 17, 2019, 01:27:11 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


Penetration without permission clearly.

If a fetus is to be classed as a human then we have to pass a law about unlawfully living in another person's body. Punishment- death.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 01:32:16 AM
I don't think either of you could still take those harsh positions if you actually recognized the humanity of the fetus.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 02:02:37 AM
I'm pretty sure the woman (or other person with a uterus) is way more human than the fetus. Also, I'm always going to defer to the individual wishes of a person regarding what is and is not inside their own body.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Razgovory on May 17, 2019, 02:25:17 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 02:02:37 AM
I'm pretty sure the woman (or other person with a uterus) is way more human than the fetus. Also, I'm always going to defer to the individual wishes of a person regarding what is and is not inside their own body.


Our country has had a poor record of deciding who is and who is not "more human".

Our laws are kinda inconsistent on the issue of a fetus.  If you kill a pregnant woman it is a double homicide in some jurisdiction.  There are some weird roads you could go down by considering a fetus to be part of a woman.  Theoretically if a woman is convicted of a crime and loses the right to control her own body the state could force reproductive choices on her.  I believe that has happened in cases with migrants to keep them from giving birth to "anchor babies".  I suppose it would even be possible to impose pregnancy on a woman who no longer has legal control of her body.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 17, 2019, 02:43:26 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 17, 2019, 02:25:17 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 02:02:37 AM
I'm pretty sure the woman (or other person with a uterus) is way more human than the fetus. Also, I'm always going to defer to the individual wishes of a person regarding what is and is not inside their own body.


Our country has had a poor record of deciding who is and who is not "more human".

Our laws are kinda inconsistent on the issue of a fetus.  If you kill a pregnant woman it is a double homicide in some jurisdiction.  There are some weird roads you could go down by considering a fetus to be part of a woman.  Theoretically if a woman is convicted of a crime and loses the right to control her own body the state could force reproductive choices on her.  I believe that has happened in cases with migrants to keep them from giving birth to "anchor babies".  I suppose it would even be possible to impose pregnancy on a woman who no longer has legal control of her body.

Well yes this thread is about the state (as run by old, straight, white males) imposing it's own reproductive choices on women.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Brain on May 17, 2019, 05:37:13 AM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

Are you obligated to house those in your body?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: derspiess on May 17, 2019, 07:47:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
You know, the thing is... you can't defend these laws. None of you conservatives can. You know they're wrong.

The law is too restrictive and I can't bring myself to support it.

QuoteYou know they do not bring about the changes you claim to want (fewer abortions). You say crap like this and dps "takes offense", but at the end of the day, you have no real defense.

Well, I'm not going to defend the Alabama law.  Go ahead and have at it.

QuoteYour party has jumped the shark, and you know it.

In a sense, both parties have.  But I'm not ready to leave the party yet-- certainly not over something Alabama Republicans did.

QuoteThere is absolutely no way to defend what they're doing to women. And don't pull the whole "it's about the baby!!" thing, because these new laws with absolutely nothing else to help prevent pregnancies show without a shadow of a doubt that it's not about the babies. It's about controlling women.

I guess that's the 'energizing myth' that keeps you feminists riled up.  That we go around all day thinking of how we can control women.  It really is about the baby, and outside of that most of us don't give a rip what a woman does with her body.

QuoteBut still... you can't just say, "Man... this is messed up."

If it makes you happy, then I'll say it.  Man, this is messed up.

Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

How about the women who have to risk their life for this fetus? Do they get no sympathy from you?

And you're fighting hard to help these women and their children, too, yes? Calling your reps to push for medical and monetary support?

This isn't about the baby no matter how much you want to claim it is.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: derspiess on May 17, 2019, 08:13:30 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 08:02:27 AM
How about the women who have to risk their life for this fetus? Do they get no sympathy from you?

They absolutely do.  That would be one of the exemptions I favor.

QuoteAnd you're fighting hard to help these women and their children, too, yes? Calling your reps to push for medical and monetary support?

I'm generally not the activist type, so no I'm not out there fighting & whatnot.  My chosen charity for the past 22 years has been an organization that provides support to indigent pregnant women and mothers of newborns.

QuoteThis isn't about the baby no matter how much you want to claim it is.

It is, but I understand the utility in your side downplaying that aspect.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 08:16:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 17, 2019, 07:47:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 16, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
You know, the thing is... you can't defend these laws. None of you conservatives can. You know they're wrong.

The law is too restrictive and I can't bring myself to support it.

QuoteYou know they do not bring about the changes you claim to want (fewer abortions). You say crap like this and dps "takes offense", but at the end of the day, you have no real defense.

Well, I'm not going to defend the Alabama law.  Go ahead and have at it.

QuoteYour party has jumped the shark, and you know it.

In a sense, both parties have.  But I'm not ready to leave the party yet-- certainly not over something Alabama Republicans did.

QuoteThere is absolutely no way to defend what they're doing to women. And don't pull the whole "it's about the baby!!" thing, because these new laws with absolutely nothing else to help prevent pregnancies show without a shadow of a doubt that it's not about the babies. It's about controlling women.

I guess that's the 'energizing myth' that keeps you feminists riled up.  That we go around all day thinking of how we can control women.  It really is about the baby, and outside of that most of us don't give a rip what a woman does with her body.

QuoteBut still... you can't just say, "Man... this is messed up."

If it makes you happy, then I'll say it.  Man, this is messed up.

It's feminist to say that I don't want to risk death over a child I don't want? It's feminist to say that I want AT LEAST the same rights as a corpse? It's feminist to say that I have a right to decide how my body is used? Is feminist to want exactly as much right to the same medical care as men get?

Okay, yep. I'm s feminist. You got me.

And lest you forget, Alabama's laws are nothing to my mind compared to Georgia's. Which you seem just fine with. Or Missouri? Or Ohio? Or Florida?

This isn't an Alabama Republican issue. This is your party determining that women are less valuable as people than a clump of cells. ESPECIALLY when that same party does absolutely nothing to actually try to prevent the pregnancies in the first place.

There is not only zero legislative action bu the Republican party to help prevent unwanted pregnancies, but they are actively getting rid of programs intended to do exactly that.

And you support this. You, who claim to be about the babies. Because at the end of the day, you believe that it's the woman's fault for wanting to get laid.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 08:19:25 AM
derpiess, every pregnancy is a risk to the mother. Every single one. So if we're going to carry this baby to fruition, it's at the risk of our own health. Every time.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 08:26:09 AM
Let me get something straight here. Despite what you are intimating,  I am absolutely not pro-abortion. I am 100% for doing everything in our power as a society to eliminate as many unwanted pregnancies as can possibly be done.

Sex education, free or subsidized birth control, extensive medical support for everyone regardless of their ability to pay. And when all else fails, the ability to decide not to carry an unwanted baby before the 20th week.

Because this is respectful to women and has proven to lower abortion rates to incredibly low numbers.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: derspiess on May 17, 2019, 08:31:28 AM
Not really interested in wasting time debating abortion with you or really anyone else, Meri.  Since you called me out, I felt like I had to chime in and clarify what my views are and what I believe they are for other pro-life folks.  But I should have realized you were spoiling for a fight. 
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 08:43:58 AM
Who was it here that was against employer-provided "whore pills?"  That person was definitely anti-women.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 08:44:31 AM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

The state can look out for the fetus if it wants. Just don't involve women in it against their will.

And as Meri said, it's not like your state has a great track record caring about babies' welfare.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Grey Fox on May 17, 2019, 08:52:56 AM
There is no pro-life, there is only forced-birth assholes.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: derspiess on May 17, 2019, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 08:43:58 AM
Who was it here that was against employer-provided "whore pills?"  That person was definitely anti-women.

I never opposed employers providing them in health insurance-- personally I would include them if I ran a company or made those decisions in a company.  I was against employers being forced to do so by the government.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 01:32:16 AM
I don't think either of you could still take those harsh positions if you actually recognized the humanity of the fetus.

Very few states have Good Samaritan laws that impose a duty to aid or rescue.  To my knowledge, Georgia and Alabama don't.  That means if you are in Georgia and Alabama and saw a child dying on the road, you would have no legal obligation to help.  If the child was lying face down in a shallow pool of water and all you needed to do was nudge the child slightly with your foot but you walked on by, you'd be guilty of nothing.  Not even a finable offense.

So if there is no duty take 10 seconds to provide help to a dying child in the street, how could there possibly be a duty to aid a non-viable pre-child being in one's  body for 9 months?

A response is that while strangers have no duty to aid and rescue, parents do have a duty to their children.

But that gets to the point - the abortion debate has nothing to do about the sanctity of human life.  The same people in Georgia and Alabama who voted for these abominations of legislation are perfectly content to see immigrant kids die of neglect in federal custody and to cheer this administration on as it guts health coverage and savages environmental and safety regulations, despite the fact that living human beings will die as a result. These people don't give a crap about life.

The abortion debate is not about when life begins.  It is about when motherhood begins.  An adult person has no duty to the life of another unless or until they become a parent.  The abortion debate is about women saying that they get to choose whether to be a parent, and others saying they don't get that choice the moment some sperm fertilizes an egg. It is cultural fight about social control, nothing more.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 10:14:05 AM
I love you, Minsky. :hug:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: FunkMonk on May 17, 2019, 11:14:25 AM
While I fall on the "pro-choice" side and largely agree with Meri and Minsky, I don't agree that the other side is motivated mainly by the desire to exert control over women's bodies. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people bombing abortion clinics and sending death threats to doctors who perform abortions. There is something deeper there, more moral than logical, that truly motivates the other side. There are many people who are "pro-life" who devote much of their lives toward helping women, mothers, orphans, whoever, and do so peaceably and without contradiction.

Politically, the result may be the practical effect of denying a woman a choice in what happens to her body, but I think religious and moral precepts, ingrained in many people across many religions, largely motivates the other side of this fight. 
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 17, 2019, 12:19:56 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 17, 2019, 11:14:25 AM
While I fall on the "pro-choice" side and largely agree with Meri and Minsky, I don't agree that the other side is motivated mainly by the desire to exert control over women's bodies. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people bombing abortion clinics and sending death threats to doctors who perform abortions. There is something deeper there, more moral than logical, that truly motivates the other side. There are many people who are "pro-life" who devote much of their lives toward helping women, mothers, orphans, whoever, and do so peaceably and without contradiction.

Politically, the result may be the practical effect of denying a woman a choice in what happens to her body, but I think religious and moral precepts, ingrained in many people across many religions, largely motivates the other side of this fight. 

Because there is no control of women and their bodies baked into religion? :hmm:
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Josquius on May 17, 2019, 12:29:43 PM
My dad grew up without a mother due to draconian 1950s British abortion laws (still existing in Northern Ireland).
Lets call the "pro-lifers" what they really are; women killers.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 17, 2019, 12:34:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: dps on May 16, 2019, 06:15:52 PM
If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

How about the women who have to risk their life for this fetus? Do they get no sympathy from you?

And you're fighting hard to help these women and their children, too, yes? Calling your reps to push for medical and monetary support?

This isn't about the baby no matter how much you want to claim it is.

Did you not even bother to read post #69 in this thread?  I posited that IF the unborn fetus is a human being, then abortion is wrong, and then went on to say that I don't know whether or not a fetus becomes human, and that IMO no one really does.  Most people seem to define the humanity or lack thereof of the fetus however it suits them to fit their own opinion on abortion.  That's assbackwards iMO, but since the answer to whether or not the fetus is a human being is probably unknowable, I suppose that's to be expected.

As for the state having a legitimate interest in looking out for the well-being of the fetus, the Supreme Court explicitly said in Roe v Wade that the state has such an interest;  people who get all up in arms about upholding Roe v Wade tend to ignore that part of the decision.  Of course, the Court also found that the woman has a right to control her own body, and that there had to be a balance struck between that right and the state interest in protecting the fetus, and came up with the 3 trimester standard as the balancing mechanism.  And then I went on to say that I think that as a practical matter, that's a reasonable standard.

As for the government providing free or low-cost birth control, no I'm not in favor of that.  That doesn't mean that I'm against birth control;  I'm also against censorship, but I don't think that supporting freedom of the press means that the government has to give you money to run your own newspaper or broadcast station, either.

And you can disagree with me on any or all of the opinions I express here, and I can respect your differing opinions.  But fuck you if you think I'm going to have any respect for you claiming that I'm lying about my motivations for holding the opinions I have.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 17, 2019, 11:14:25 AM
While I fall on the "pro-choice" side and largely agree with Meri and Minsky, I don't agree that the other side is motivated mainly by the desire to exert control over women's bodies. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people bombing abortion clinics and sending death threats to doctors who perform abortions. There is something deeper there, more moral than logical, that truly motivates the other side. There are many people who are "pro-life" who devote much of their lives toward helping women, mothers, orphans, whoever, and do so peaceably and without contradiction.

Politically, the result may be the practical effect of denying a woman a choice in what happens to her body, but I think religious and moral precepts, ingrained in many people across many religions, largely motivates the other side of this fight.

There is nothing inconsistent with the motivation of exerting control over women and bombing abortion clinics and killing or injuring in an attempt to kill (there are not just threats being made) doctors who perform abortions.   Those actions are entirely inconsistent with the assertion they are "pro life".  The reason they bomb clinics and kill or attempt to kill doctors is because they are the things that are giving women agency. 

I do agree with you that there is deep value involved and that value is the misogynist views of Fundamentalist Christianity and particularly the variant practiced in North America.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
The sanctity of life is an important value, but it is not the only value and in most societies, including the USA, it is not even the most important value.  If life were truly paramount, we would have gotten rid of the second amendment long ago because the recreational rights of gun owners could not take precedence over general safety.  For the same reasons we would eliminate many civil liberties and institute total surveillance. We would jack taxes way up and spend a ton more money on health care, mental health and poverty alleviation.  We would open the borders and actively encourage migrants from war zones and other "shitholes" because life is life and we could easily save many thousands of lives that way.

When I see radical pro-lifers of the type that support the Georgia and Alabama laws supporting all these things, then and only then will I take their absolutist claims about life seriously. 
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Malthus on May 17, 2019, 01:31:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
The sanctity of life is an important value, but it is not the only value and in most societies, including the USA, it is not even the most important value.  If life were truly paramount, we would have gotten rid of the second amendment long ago because the recreational rights of gun owners could not take precedence over general safety.  For the same reasons we would eliminate many civil liberties and institute total surveillance. We would jack taxes way up and spend a ton more money on health care, mental health and poverty alleviation.  We would open the borders and actively encourage migrants from war zones and other "shitholes" because life is life and we could easily save many thousands of lives that way.

When I see radical pro-lifers of the type that support the Georgia and Alabama laws supporting all these things, then and only then will I take their absolutist claims about life seriously.

I doubt any here would disagree that the supporters of this Alabama legislation are motivated by religious extremism and/or "sticking it to the liberals and feminists"-style politics of factional resentment. Unfortunately, that just seems par for the course in US politics these days, at least on the Right.

Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I always felt like we should be able to come together and find a way to give both sides as much of what they want as possible. That we could find policies and medical technology to give women control of their bodies and support the humanity of the fetus. I mean maybe not perfectly but we could really do much better. But it just never really happened. Even doing something logical in that context. like provide free birth control for women to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems to be hard to pull off. I always found that weird since that theoretically should be a no-brainer thing both sides should want.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 01:48:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I always felt like we should be able to come together and find a way to give both sides as much of what they want as possible. That we could find policies and medical technology to give women control of their bodies and support the humanity of the fetus. I mean maybe not perfectly but we could really do much better. But it just never really happened. Even doing something logical in that context. like provide free birth control for women to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems to be hard to pull off. I always found that weird since that theoretically should be a no-brainer thing both sides should want.

You are assuming one of the sides is only interested in the well being of the fetus and not the control of the women that goes along with it.  If that assumption were correct then there would be a number of ways to resolve the issue to the satisfaction of both sides.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 02:03:30 PM
Such as?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 02:14:24 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 02:03:30 PM
Such as?

Free birth control.  Sex education taught from an early age so that children grow up knowing how to use and expect to use birth control.  Fee health care so that women can gain immediate access to morning after pills if they are at all concerned that the birth control has failed, or the have been sexually assaulted.  Social policy changes which provide women with greater economic opportunity so that they can avoid being in relationships they do no desire simply to derive some small measure of economic security. 

I am sure if you start thinking about this from the perspective of a woman you will be able to come up with more.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 02:19:31 PM
All the stuff I said would minimize abortions and was called a radical feminist for. Because common sense is not for women, you know. We must be radical to want to be consider more human that a clump of cells.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I always felt like we should be able to come together and find a way to give both sides as much of what they want as possible. That we could find policies and medical technology to give women control of their bodies and support the humanity of the fetus. I mean maybe not perfectly but we could really do much better. But it just never really happened. Even doing something logical in that context. like provide free birth control for women to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems to be hard to pull off. I always found that weird since that theoretically should be a no-brainer thing both sides should want.

Kind of hard to try to come to a compromise with people who doubt--no, not just doubt, deny--the sincerity of my views even when I say that as a practical matter I'm OK with the 3 trimester standard the Supreme Court articulated in Roe v Wade simply because I suggest that it's possible that a developing fetus is a human being sometime before the completion of a full 9 month term pregnancy.  Guess they'll only be satisfied if we not only allow abortion on demand at any point before full term, but also outlaw providing medical care to preemies.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I always felt like we should be able to come together and find a way to give both sides as much of what they want as possible. That we could find policies and medical technology to give women control of their bodies and support the humanity of the fetus. I mean maybe not perfectly but we could really do much better. But it just never really happened. Even doing something logical in that context. like provide free birth control for women to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems to be hard to pull off. I always found that weird since that theoretically should be a no-brainer thing both sides should want.

Kind of hard to try to come to a compromise with people who doubt--no, not just doubt, deny--the sincerity of my views even when I say that as a practical matter I'm OK with the 3 trimester standard the Supreme Court articulated in Roe v Wade simply because I suggest that it's possible that a developing fetus is a human being sometime before the completion of a full 9 month term pregnancy.  Guess they'll only be satisfied if we not only allow abortion on demand at any point before full term, but also outlaw providing medical care to preemies.

Kind of hard to have any sympathy for your position when you repeat the lies of the Trumpists in the same post.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 03:04:34 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
Guess they'll only be satisfied if we not only allow abortion on demand at any point before full term, but also outlaw providing medical care to preemies.

Well there you go. You seem to doubt the sincerity that that it is about women having bodily autonomy and not a bloodthirsty lust to murder babies.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 03:15:48 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 02:19:31 PM
All the stuff I said would minimize abortions and was called a radical feminist for. Because common sense is not for women, you know. We must be radical to want to be consider more human that a clump of cells.

Who must be radical? Women? Well clearly the majority of women in Alabama are radicals...for the other side unfortunately.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 03:21:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 02:14:24 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 02:03:30 PM
Such as?

Free birth control.  Sex education taught from an early age so that children grow up knowing how to use and expect to use birth control.  Fee health care so that women can gain immediate access to morning after pills if they are at all concerned that the birth control has failed, or the have been sexually assaulted.  Social policy changes which provide women with greater economic opportunity so that they can avoid being in relationships they do no desire simply to derive some small measure of economic security. 

I am sure if you start thinking about this from the perspective of a woman you will be able to come up with more.

Birth control and sex education is all well and good, but it doesn't eliminate the problem of unwanted pregnancies. Legal abortion and the well-being of the fetus will always conflict.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 03:42:16 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 03:21:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 02:14:24 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 02:03:30 PM
Such as?

Free birth control.  Sex education taught from an early age so that children grow up knowing how to use and expect to use birth control.  Fee health care so that women can gain immediate access to morning after pills if they are at all concerned that the birth control has failed, or the have been sexually assaulted.  Social policy changes which provide women with greater economic opportunity so that they can avoid being in relationships they do no desire simply to derive some small measure of economic security. 

I am sure if you start thinking about this from the perspective of a woman you will be able to come up with more.

Birth control and sex education is all well and good, but it doesn't eliminate the problem of unwanted pregnancies. Legal abortion and the well-being of the fetus will always conflict.

You are correct that there is no perfect solution.  But that was not the claim.  What Meri, I and others have proposed from time to time as alternative to the dysfunctional system you currently have would be much better and would go a long way to deal with the concerns of those who truly value life above all.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2019, 03:52:01 PM
You said the issue could be resolved to the satisfaction of both sides. That isn't possible.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 17, 2019, 03:57:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I always felt like we should be able to come together and find a way to give both sides as much of what they want as possible. That we could find policies and medical technology to give women control of their bodies and support the humanity of the fetus. I mean maybe not perfectly but we could really do much better. But it just never really happened. Even doing something logical in that context. like provide free birth control for women to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems to be hard to pull off. I always found that weird since that theoretically should be a no-brainer thing both sides should want.

Kind of hard to try to come to a compromise with people who doubt--no, not just doubt, deny--the sincerity of my views even when I say that as a practical matter I'm OK with the 3 trimester standard the Supreme Court articulated in Roe v Wade simply because I suggest that it's possible that a developing fetus is a human being sometime before the completion of a full 9 month term pregnancy.  Guess they'll only be satisfied if we not only allow abortion on demand at any point before full term, but also outlaw providing medical care to preemies.

Kind of hard to have any sympathy for your position when you repeat the lies of the Trumpists in the same post.

Other than the sarcastic last sentence, what in my post is a lie?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 04:12:30 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 12:34:43 PM
As for the government providing free or low-cost birth control, no I'm not in favor of that.  That doesn't mean that I'm against birth control;  I'm also against censorship, but I don't think that supporting freedom of the press means that the government has to give you money to run your own newspaper or broadcast station, either.

That's a pretty crap comparison, as those are in no way similar. You generally run a newspaper or broadcast station as a service to a wide audience and for profit, and birth control is related to personal health and has neither of those factors. A better comparison would be with public healthcare, as birth control can be seen as part of that. Moreover, there have been e.g. a marked reduction in teen pregnancies where free birth control was provided, so it clearly has a beneficial effect.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 04:18:14 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 03:57:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I always felt like we should be able to come together and find a way to give both sides as much of what they want as possible. That we could find policies and medical technology to give women control of their bodies and support the humanity of the fetus. I mean maybe not perfectly but we could really do much better. But it just never really happened. Even doing something logical in that context. like provide free birth control for women to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems to be hard to pull off. I always found that weird since that theoretically should be a no-brainer thing both sides should want.

Kind of hard to try to come to a compromise with people who doubt--no, not just doubt, deny--the sincerity of my views even when I say that as a practical matter I'm OK with the 3 trimester standard the Supreme Court articulated in Roe v Wade simply because I suggest that it's possible that a developing fetus is a human being sometime before the completion of a full 9 month term pregnancy.  Guess they'll only be satisfied if we not only allow abortion on demand at any point before full term, but also outlaw providing medical care to preemies.

Kind of hard to have any sympathy for your position when you repeat the lies of the Trumpists in the same post.

Other than the sarcastic last sentence, what in my post is a lie?

It was the last sentence I was referring to.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:54:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 04:18:14 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM

Other than the sarcastic last sentence, what in my post is a lie?

It was the last sentence I was referring to.

Has someone in the Trump administration actually suggested that Democrats want to deny health care to preemies?    :huh:   Jesus, you can't be sarcastic anymore;  no matter how clearly ridiculous someone is, some politician somewhere actually believes it.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 06:08:34 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 05:54:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 04:18:14 PM
Quote from: dps on May 17, 2019, 02:32:20 PM

Other than the sarcastic last sentence, what in my post is a lie?

It was the last sentence I was referring to.

Has someone in the Trump administration actually suggested that Democrats want to deny health care to preemies?    :huh:   Jesus, you can't be sarcastic anymore;  no matter how clearly ridiculous someone is, some politician somewhere actually believes it.

Such is the world we now live
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 11:30:33 AM
I've never really understood the claim that we cannot tell when a fetus is human.

It seems pretty straightforward to me.

First, lets talk about what we mean when we say "human". Why is it murder to kill a human, and not to kill something not-human, say, a fish?

What is it that we should value when we talk about humanity such that it is a crime to harm it?

I think it is our consciousness and our ability to experience pain because of that advanced level of cognition that is (as far as we know) actually unique to being a human being is the thing that we value. Now, there are some interesting argument around this of course, but in this context, I think it is pretty clear what it is that we consider to be relevant - human levels of conscious thinking and potential for suffering.

And we can tell when a fetus starts exhibiting human like brain activity. It can be pretty simply measured. It is around 28 weeks. I am pretty happy with tossing in a margin of error there, and calling it the current SC standard actually rather reasonable. '

I actually reject what I see as Meri's argument (which was Roe's argument I think, that the SC rejected as well) that a womans right to an abortion was absolute. I do think that there is in fact a balance to be struck between the individual rights of the mother, and societies interest in the prenatal health of this human being. And I think the argument that there is no possible way to have the view that abortion should be regulated in good faith, ie, based on concern for the health of this fetus rather than a desire to control women, is simply crazy. I am very content and comfortable saying that I think abortion can be  progressively more restricted as the pregnancy progresses, AND that we can and should do a much, much better job providing better heath care and health services to children and potential parents.

Great article on the development of the human brain in vitro:

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/books/chapters/the-ethical-brain.html

Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: dps on May 18, 2019, 11:41:19 AM
Well, I stand corrected, then.  I guess my original assumption that technology could provide an answer as to when a developing fetus becomes human can be answered, at least to Berkut's satisfaction.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: dps on May 18, 2019, 11:41:19 AM
Well, I stand corrected, then.  I guess my original assumption that technology could provide an answer as to when a developing fetus becomes human can be answered, at least to Berkut's satisfaction.

Well, it CAN be answered, as long as you start with some kind of reasonable definition of what it means to "be human" at all.

That is, I don't think it is hard to do with modern technology (ability to measure and understand brain activity) combined with modern research into the nature of thought and consciousness and how it develops.

Now, if you don't care about consciousness as a measure of humanity to begin with, then that isn't useful of course. But in that case, no amount of even possible technology can help*.




*Absent some better answers to some really interesting questions about just what it means to be "conscious" which is an amazing field of study - but I suspect most fundamental pro-lifers aren't really digging into the latest scientific articles about the nature of human thought.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Razgovory on May 18, 2019, 03:28:08 PM
Defining human is a bit more tricky.  There are people who are alive who exhibit very little brain activity, though we don't consider them legally dead.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: DGuller on May 18, 2019, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 02:19:31 PM
All the stuff I said would minimize abortions and was called a radical feminist for. Because common sense is not for women, you know. We must be radical to want to be consider more human that a clump of cells.
You're making it sound like pregnancy is a choice between the death of the fetus and the death of the mother.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2019, 01:33:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 11:30:33 AM
I actually reject what I see as Meri's argument (which was Roe's argument I think, that the SC rejected as well) that a womans right to an abortion was absolute. I do think that there is in fact a balance to be struck between the individual rights of the mother, and societies interest in the prenatal health of this human being. And I think the argument that there is no possible way to have the view that abortion should be regulated in good faith, ie, based on concern for the health of this fetus rather than a desire to control women, is simply crazy. I am very content and comfortable saying that I think abortion can be  progressively more restricted as the pregnancy progresses, AND that we can and should do a much, much better job providing better heath care and health services to children and potential parents.

What you are referring to as the Roe compromise is the very thing that is under attack.  Of course it's possible to regulate abortion in good faith, most of the country has been doing it for 40 years.  But this whole thread is about a concerted effort to undo that.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Berkut on May 19, 2019, 11:08:19 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2019, 01:33:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 11:30:33 AM
I actually reject what I see as Meri's argument (which was Roe's argument I think, that the SC rejected as well) that a womans right to an abortion was absolute. I do think that there is in fact a balance to be struck between the individual rights of the mother, and societies interest in the prenatal health of this human being. And I think the argument that there is no possible way to have the view that abortion should be regulated in good faith, ie, based on concern for the health of this fetus rather than a desire to control women, is simply crazy. I am very content and comfortable saying that I think abortion can be  progressively more restricted as the pregnancy progresses, AND that we can and should do a much, much better job providing better heath care and health services to children and potential parents.

What you are referring to as the Roe compromise is the very thing that is under attack.  Of course it's possible to regulate abortion in good faith, most of the country has been doing it for 40 years.  But this whole thread is about a concerted effort to undo that.

I think the thread is about whatever we wish it to be, and my response was driven not by the original topic, which is pretty boring (is there anyone in the entire thread who is actually in favor of this moronic law?).
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on May 19, 2019, 11:29:44 AM
I don't think I posted it in hopes of finding someone who supported the law. :o
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2019, 11:42:21 AM
What is significant about the law is that it reflects a radicalization of tactics in recognition of a changed political environment.  Issue based campaigners no longer see the need to tailor messages to try to secure majoritarian support. This is a play to inflame and provoke tribal instincts just as the complex immigration issue has been reduced to dangerous and emotive  claims about "invasions" and demands for medieval walls, with the consequence that a fake non-crisis on the border has been transformed into a very real moral crisis on the border. 

Our politics is being seized by zealots, because others who should know better are willing to encourage it in the hope of pushing Overton windows.  As a political tactic it is failing to achieve the objective as American opinions aren't really shifting from their central points, but the one Overton window that may be moving is the acceptability of displays of politically motivated violence and threats of violence.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
I don't think it's a change in tactics. They just realized there's now a possibility the SC might reverse Roe so they're testing it. The reason these bills weren't passed before was they'd just be a waste of time.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 19, 2019, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 18, 2019, 03:28:08 PM
Defining human is a bit more tricky.  There are people who are alive who exhibit very little brain activity, though we don't consider them legally dead.

And yet, it's not murder for a hospital or family member to "pull the plug" on someone with no brain activity.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: merithyn on May 19, 2019, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 18, 2019, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 17, 2019, 02:19:31 PM
All the stuff I said would minimize abortions and was called a radical feminist for. Because common sense is not for women, you know. We must be radical to want to be consider more human that a clump of cells.
You're making it sound like pregnancy is a choice between the death of the fetus and the death of the mother.

Every pregnancy has inherent risks. Not every pregnancy realizes those risks. It doesn't change the fact that the risks are there.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2019, 02:40:48 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
I don't think it's a change in tactics. They just realized there's now a possibility the SC might reverse Roe so they're testing it. The reason these bills weren't passed before was they'd just be a waste of time.

That's not how interest groups move constitutional change.  You always want to bring test cases that build incrementally and present the matter in the best light.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Razgovory on May 20, 2019, 01:07:12 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
I don't think it's a change in tactics. They just realized there's now a possibility the SC might reverse Roe so they're testing it. The reason these bills weren't passed before was they'd just be a waste of time.

States pass laws to challenge Roe all the time.  Legislatures do this to signal their pro-life stance to their constituents.  They aren't accomplishing anything legally, but I doubt they feel they are wasting time.

This... is different.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2019, 03:02:50 PM
Heard a funny quip - Alabama, where nobody chooses to give birth.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:16:31 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2019, 02:40:48 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
I don't think it's a change in tactics. They just realized there's now a possibility the SC might reverse Roe so they're testing it. The reason these bills weren't passed before was they'd just be a waste of time.

That's not how interest groups move constitutional change.  You always want to bring test cases that build incrementally and present the matter in the best light.

Which is why a lot of pro-life special interest groups are not supporting the Alabama and Georgia bills.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on June 28, 2019, 04:45:18 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/27/alabama-pregnant-woman-shot-manslaughter-charge-marshae-jones

QuoteAlabama: pregnant woman shot in stomach is charged in fetus's death

Marshae Jones was charged with manslaughter, while the woman accused of shooting her walks free, report says

A woman from Alabama who was shot in the stomach while pregnant – with the bullets killing the fetus – has been charged with manslaughter.

Marshae Jones was reportedly five months pregnant when she was shot by another woman in December outside a shop in Pleasant Grove, near Birmingham.

On Wednesday, Jones, 27, was indicted by a Jefferson county grand jury on a manslaughter charge and is expected to be held in Jefferson county jail on a $50,000 bond, while the woman accused of shooting her walked free, reported AL.com.

The case has raised alarm among pro-choice groups who say it is shocking evidence of how the state's restrictive abortion laws are now being used against pregnant women.

"The investigation showed that the only true victim in this was the unborn baby,'' said Lt Danny Reid of Pleasant Grove police following the shooting, reported AL.com in December. "It was the mother of the child who initiated and continued the fight which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby."

The Guardian has contacted Jefferson county district attorney's office for comment.

It comes after the Alabama governor, Kay Ivey ,signed a bill in May banning abortion in almost every circumstance – including rape and incest – posing a challenge to Roe v Wade, the landmark 1973 supreme court judgment that guaranteed abortion rights across the nation.

Alabama is one of 38 states with fetal homicide laws that recognize a fetus as a potential victim.

It is also a "stand-your-ground" state, which means people are allowed to use physical force to defend themselves if their reason is considered "justifiable".

The ruling has prompted outcry on Twitter – including from abortion groups, who spoke out in Jones's support.

"Marshae Jones was indicted for manslaughter for losing a pregnancy after being shot in the abdomen FIVE times. Her shooter remains free," wrote Alabama-based abortion group the Yellowhammer Fund on Twitter. "We're going to get Marshae out of jail and assist with her legal representation."

Ilyse Hogue, president of Naral Pro-Choice America, tweeted: "Marshae Jones was indicted for homicide when someone shot her in the stomach while she was pregnant, ending her pregnancy. They said she 'started it.' The shooter went free. This what 2019 looks like for a pregnant woman of colour without means in a red state. This is now."

Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: mongers on June 28, 2019, 05:00:36 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 28, 2019, 04:45:18 PM


Quote.....

Ilyse Hogue, president of Naral Pro-Choice America, tweeted: "Marshae Jones was indicted for homicide when someone shot her in the stomach while she was pregnant, ending her pregnancy. They said she 'started it.' The shooter went free. This what 2019 looks like for a pregnant woman of colour without means in a red state. This is now."

Don't worry Gaby, some will be along in a while to explain why this is all entirely reasonable.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2019, 05:53:04 PM
It almost sounds like the writer would be happier if the woman defending herself from the pregnant lady was charged.
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: garbon on June 28, 2019, 06:08:23 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2019, 05:53:04 PM
It almost sounds like the writer would be happier if the woman defending herself from the pregnant lady was charged.

Weak effort. 1/10
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: The Brain on June 28, 2019, 06:17:29 PM
So 38 states have fetal homicide laws. Exactly how do they relate to abortion laws?
Title: Re: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2019, 06:24:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 28, 2019, 06:08:23 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2019, 05:53:04 PM
It almost sounds like the writer would be happier if the woman defending herself from the pregnant lady was charged.

Weak effort. 1/10

An effort implies a goal.