Languish.org

General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Syt on August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

Title: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/10/justice/missouri-police-involved-shooting/index.html?hpt=us_c2

QuoteFatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests

(CNN) -- Protests in Missouri around the death of an unarmed teen turned violent late Sunday.

A gas station was looted, and police called for additional units to back up officers already on the street, said Brian Schellman, spokesman with the St. Louis County Police Department.

Video from the scene showed police in riot gear. No injuries were immediately reported.

"They are sending in more officers to try and get the situation under control," Schellman said.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said that at least 20 police cars were damaged and that the use of tear gas was a high possibility.

A friend and witnesses say Missouri teen Michael Brown was unarmed and had his hands in the air when a Ferguson police officer shot and killed him, but that account is in dispute.

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Jon Belmar, chief of the St. Louis County Police Department, said at a Sunday news conference.

The officer tried to leave his vehicle just before the shooting on Saturday afternoon, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said.

A shot was fired inside the police car, and Brown was eventually shot about 35 feet away from the vehicle, Belmar said, adding few details because he didn't want to "prejudice" the case.

All shell casings collected at the scene were from the officer's weapon, Belmar said. He further said the medical examiner would issue a ruling on how many times Brown was shot, but "it was more than just a couple."

The account was in stark contrast to those of witnesses who said Brown did nothing to instigate the shooting and appeared to be surrendering when he was killed.

"My son just turned 18 and graduated high school and he didn't bother nobody," the young man's mother, Lesley McSpadden, told CNN affiliate KSDK.

Ferguson Police cars do not have dash cameras, the department said.

McSpadden was told her son was shot eight times, though witnesses had varying accounts of how many shots were fired. Brown was supposed to start classes at Vatterott College on Monday, she said.


Antonio French, the Ward 21 alderman in nearby St. Louis, tweeted numerous photos and videos from the aftermath of the Saturday shooting. Brown was shot shortly after 2 p.m., according to reports.

Hundreds of demonstrators -- as many as 1,000 at the height of the protests, according to police -- converged on the scene Saturday, at one point driving away a police squad car, French said on Twitter.

Scores of police officers lined the street. One of them held the leash of a barking dog, and French said some officers wielded shotguns. One image showed a riot van on the scene.

Demonstrators held their hands in the air and chanted, "We are Michael Brown." Others held signs, including one that said, "No justice, no peace" and another that read, "Police stops should not = dead kids." There were reports that some protesters yelled, "Kill the police."

Demonstrators at one point set a Dumpster on fire, according to CNN affiliate KMOV, and Ferguson Police Chief Jackson told KSDK, "It did get a little tense when, twice, several shots were fired."

The Ferguson Police Department called more than 100 officers from 15 jurisdictions to secure the scene, KMOV reported.

"We had what probably bordered on riot conditions," Jackson said, explaining that it took hours to process the scene, collect evidence and move Brown's body.

Later, according to media reports, about 100 people took their protest to the Police Department in Ferguson, a northern suburb that's about a 20-minute drive from St. Louis. Officers were deployed to ensure the demonstrations were peaceful, the police chief said.

McSpadden had pointed words for the officer who shot her son.

"You're not God. You don't decide when you're going to take somebody from here," she told KSDK.

Jackson said the St. Louis County Police Department was conducting an independent investigation, and during the Sunday news conference, Belmar expressed doubts that Jackson would've called his department so promptly "if he had something to hide."

The officer who shot Brown is on paid administrative leave during the investigation and will be available to talk to county homicide detectives.

The officer has been with the force six years, Belmar said, adding that he is "unaware of any other issues that he's been involved in."

He will be required to undergo two psychological evaluations before returning to duty, Belmar said.

The St. Louis County NAACP is asking the FBI to open an inquiry and said it would conduct its own investigation into the killing.

"We plan to do everything within our power to ensure that the Ferguson Police Department as well as the St. Louis County Police Department releases all details pertinent to the shooting," local chapter President Esther Haywood said in a statement.

A Justice Department spokeswoman said Attorney General Eric Holder has instructed the department's civil rights division to monitor the developments in the case.

The FBI said it is assisting police in its investigation and will review the findings.

Federal authorities typically await completion of the local investigation before deciding whether federal action is needed.

Brown was spending the summer in the neighborhood with his grandmother, Desuirea Harris, she told KMOV. She described him as "a good kid."

He was walking with at least one other man at the time of the incident, Jackson said.

Witnesses told CNN affiliate KTVI that a police officer in a squad car grabbed Brown while he was walking.

Dorian Johnson said he was walking with Brown in the middle of the street when a police car pulled up. The officer told the teens to use the sidewalk, according to Johnson.

After an exchange of words, the officer shot Brown even after he raised his hands in the air, Johnson said.

The officer "shot again, and once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air," Johnson told KMOV. "He started to get down and the officer still approached with his weapon drawn and fired several more shots."

The police chief declined to divulge specifics about the case, including what preceded the shooting.

Brown enjoyed music and had recently graduated from Normandy High School in Wellston, his uncle Bernard Ewing said.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 09:48:16 PM
And everybody in St Louis begins playing to type. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Phillip V on August 11, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
8 More Unarmed Teens Still At Large

http://www.clickhole.com/article/8-more-unarmed-teens-still-large-731

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchimg.onionstatic.com%2F2188%2F16x9%2F800.jpg&hash=28d7a328392e0023e6fd219e2b6897fe481e9642)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:06:11 PM
Wise move to scoot it over to the FBI for investigation, if only for the PR and damage control.

FBI will never find an FBI-related shooting as unjustified, but they have no problem getting all scrutinizing and whatnot on the local gendarmes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:20:10 PM
Apparently this guy was a perfect human being and planned to go to college.  Why is it always those types who seem to be the ones physically attacking cops?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:21:03 PM
 :lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:21:03 PM
:lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.

Some people are just assholes I guess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 11, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:21:03 PM
:lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.

Some people are just assholes I guess.

And isn't that why people become cops? :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 11:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 11, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 11, 2014, 10:21:03 PM
:lol:

Personally, I never understood the cops that insisted on fucking with people for the sake of fucking with them.

Some people are just assholes I guess.

And isn't that why people become cops? :unsure:

Well, that & violent criminals.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 11, 2014, 11:26:24 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:20:10 PM
Apparently this guy was a perfect human being and planned to go to college.  Why is it always those types who seem to be the ones physically attacking cops?

This is from around where my dad used to live.  I've still got a lot of family near by.  I have no idea what's going on over there.  The police story doesn't make a lot of sense to me yet.  One thing is certain.  I wouldn't want to be outside in North County tonight.  This might actually be a good time to be packing a firearm if you are a white guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 12:15:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 11, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
And isn't that why people become cops? :unsure:

I did it for the car.  Man, was I sold short.  Fucking shitty powder blue Taurus with 4 cylinders.  Don't go back to the Caprices until I leave or anything, people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 12:18:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 11, 2014, 11:26:24 PM
This is from around where my dad used to live.  I've still got a lot of family near by.  I have no idea what's going on over there.  The police story doesn't make a lot of sense to me yet.  One thing is certain.  I wouldn't want to be outside in North County tonight.  This might actually be a good time to be packing a firearm if you are a white guy.

I'm sure there will be ample opportunity for derdeadniggers to get the proper body count he wants.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 12, 2014, 12:52:12 AM
Yeah, you could do that.  I wouldn't suggest it though.  Good way to have your house catch on fire. The shooting took place about three miles from where my dad grew up.  It's sort of a rough neighborhood.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 12, 2014, 07:31:43 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 12:15:42 AM
I did it for the car.  Man, was I sold short.  Fucking shitty powder blue Taurus with 4 cylinders.  Don't go back to the Caprices until I leave or anything, people.

Heh.  Sounds like the local yokels from when I lived in Millville.  10+ year old Crown Vics except for the two black Chargers with NOS.  The cops getting to drive them must feel like they won the lottery. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 08:15:21 AM
Except those two probably catch nothing but shit about it.

"So Batman, who'd you blow to get the Dodge?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 12, 2014, 03:53:46 PM
Looks like they had another night of ugliness.  People were driving in from other parts of town to get in on the looting, per the St. Louis mayor.

And the FAA apparently declared a no fly zone above Ferguson.  Meowtf?

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 12, 2014, 04:09:27 PM
The airport is really close, and planes come in very low over that area.  They probably want it clear for helicopters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 08:26:23 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 12, 2014, 03:53:46 PM
And the FAA apparently declared a no fly zone above Ferguson.  Meowtf?

That must be for the close air support.  There must be a local MOVE chapter thereabouts.   :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 12, 2014, 08:46:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 12, 2014, 08:26:23 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 12, 2014, 03:53:46 PM
And the FAA apparently declared a no fly zone above Ferguson.  Meowtf?

That must be for the close air support.  There must be a local MOVE chapter thereabouts.   :lol:

:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on August 13, 2014, 05:16:06 AM
 :pinch:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
Another bad night.  *Another* police shooting, say the headlines.  This dude was armed, but it's still a police shooting so that's all you need to put in the headline. Also more rioting & stuff.  All wig shops in the area have been looted (I'm not kidding-- I read that yesterday).  Thankfully Rev. Al is there to fan the flames.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/uneasy-night-a-police-shooting-more-tear-gas-in-ferguson/article_7fb366f0-2f29-5bdd-b18b-34c9d8c688e7.html

Oh, and some woman got shot in the head in a drive-by, but no cops were involved so that's not really a big deal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 12:26:55 PM
LOL, dercreepyasscracker.

Maybe the cops'll shoot some Catholic blacks that are on whore pills, and score you a hate trick.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 12:32:04 PM
:lol:  THATS REAL RETARDED SIR
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 13, 2014, 12:49:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 12:26:55 PM
a hate trick.

:face:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:24:25 PM
I have to admit I liked this. :blush:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IfTheyGunnedMeDown
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 13, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:24:25 PM
I have to admit I liked this. :blush:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IfTheyGunnedMeDown

An attempt to promote moderate, intelligent, non-hyperbolic conversation about how minorities are portrayed in the media and how that affects perceptions of that minority? :o

You have failed Languish. :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:37:19 PM
Hey I was apologetic about liking it. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

That's even more un-Languishlike.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:41:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

That's even more un-Languishlike.

I can't help but laugh given that you're the one saying this. :D

:blush:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:41:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

No, that would be you having a picture taken with your hair dyed neon blue. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on August 13, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

Seriously, I thought you wouldn't be seen dead with anyone that old.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 13, 2014, 03:43:07 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 13, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

Seriously, I thought you wouldn't be seen dead with anyone that old.

:huh:

I think it has been established by now that I don't go for the younger set. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:44:10 PM
Shouldn't have been a stereotype?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/man-found-beaten-in-san-franciscos-duboce-triangle-to-be-taken-off-life-support-kalamazoo-michigan-hate-crime/

QuoteA man who was beaten in an alleged hate crime in San Francisco's Duboce Triangle will be taken off life support Wednesday afternoon.

Brian Higgins, 31, was found unconscious Sunday morning in San Francisco's Duboce Triangle neighborhood. He may have been the victim of an assault and attempted murder, police said Tuesday.

...

Higgins, with roots in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, was part of a community called the Radical Faeries. It's described as a group of gay men looking for a spiritual dimension to their sexuality, according to CBS station NEWESCHANNEL 3.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 03:44:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?

I dunno, derfetus seems to be doing just fine playing to type as a 19th century Amish father.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:45:03 PM
That's not what I saw on Facebook. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:47:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:44:10 PM
Shouldn't have been a stereotype?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/man-found-beaten-in-san-franciscos-duboce-triangle-to-be-taken-off-life-support-kalamazoo-michigan-hate-crime/

QuoteA man who was beaten in an alleged hate crime in San Francisco's Duboce Triangle will be taken off life support Wednesday afternoon.

Brian Higgins, 31, was found unconscious Sunday morning in San Francisco's Duboce Triangle neighborhood. He may have been the victim of an assault and attempted murder, police said Tuesday.

...

Higgins, with roots in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, was part of a community called the Radical Faeries. It's described as a group of gay men looking for a spiritual dimension to their sexuality, according to CBS station NEWESCHANNEL 3.

I'm playing it light - otherwise I'd have to rage. I know the flippancy about being killed for "playing a stereotype" is full of shit, garbo.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:49:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 13, 2014, 03:47:41 PM
I know the flippancy about being killed for "playing a stereotype" is full of shit, garbo.

Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 13, 2014, 03:57:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 03:36:31 PM
How about not living the stereotype?

Which stereotype?  The Conservative one when he hears some black kid gets shot his immediate thought is

Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2014, 10:20:10 PM
Apparently this guy was a perfect human being and planned to go to college.  Why is it always those types who seem to be the ones physically attacking cops?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

You'd certainly appear to be doing so.  But why would you do that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:19:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?

May be just a personal preference, but yeah I think it's generally a good idea to try to avoid negatively stereotypical habits.  For example, I grew up in Appalachia and have tried to avoid those related stereotypes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:22:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:49:56 PM
Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.

I don't see how it relates.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:28:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:38:57 PM
So if I were to participate by taking a photo of myself flipping the camera off with a 40 in my lap and then a picture of my graduation day from college - would I be "living the stereotype?"

You'd certainly appear to be doing so.  But why would you do that?

Because I felt like flipping the camera off and drinking a 40?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:28:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:19:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Besides really, should the existence of stereotypes choose how one feels like living?

May be just a personal preference, but yeah I think it's generally a good idea to try to avoid negatively stereotypical habits.  For example, I grew up in Appalachia and have tried to avoid those related stereotypes.

Ah so it is a personal worry of looking like a hick. Understandable.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:22:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:49:56 PM
Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.

I don't see how it relates.

Why did he have to go around acting like such a fairy?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:32:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
Why did he have to go around acting like such a fairy?

Dunno.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 13, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
Man this Fergusen stuff is off the hook.  This is like 1960s stuff.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 13, 2014, 11:52:25 PM
No shit.  Locked up reporters from the Washington Post and Huffington in a McDonald's for not moving fast enough when the cops told everybody to leave.
No explanation as to why the McDonald's had to be emptied.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 12:12:34 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 04:22:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2014, 03:49:56 PM
Well, of course. The point of me posting that was to show that the "stereotype" bit by derspiess was ridiculous.

I don't see how it relates.

Why did he have to go around acting like such a fairy?

Yeah, that's the same type of mentality that blames a rape victim for looking like a "slut".

That being said - and perhaps this thread is not the best one to have this discussion - I think we should draw the line somewhere when it comes to being called out on a stereotype - I don't think anyone should be completely immune to that (obviously, anything that involves violence or active persecution is right out). I just think that people who embrace a certain stereotype in order to stand out are hypocrites when they are offended or call it bullying when someone (verbally) reacts negatively to it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:16:44 AM
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 12:18:43 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:16:44 AM
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.

Wow, talk about the blacks not wanting to help the situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:16:44 AM
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.

It's shifted a lot in recent years.  Not very long ago it was mostly white.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 08:16:57 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:16:44 AM
Interesting factoid:  Ferguson is 70% black, Ferguson PD has 3 black officers out of 53.

I noticed that to.  Another weird corollary with the 60s.

But as Raz mentioned 10 years ago it was majority white.  It is just a burb of St. Louis though right?  I thought maybe it was a recipient of black flight from another area but looking at the shrinking population it looks like whitey is moving out.  Hardly any Asians or Latinos though how weird is that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 08:21:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 08:16:57 AM
Hardly any Asians or Latinos though how weird is that?

Sounds like Cincy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Scipio on August 14, 2014, 08:25:40 AM
The state of Mississippi would like to thank Ferguson, MO, for making us look good.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on August 14, 2014, 08:30:30 AM
I like to tell Americans that their government is not out to get you or kill you.

Apparently, the Police feel differently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 09:03:54 AM
Quote from: Scipio on August 14, 2014, 08:25:40 AM
The state of Mississippi would like to thank Ferguson, MO, for making us look good.

It would take a lot more than that to even make MS look okay. ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 09:16:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 14, 2014, 08:30:30 AM
I like to tell Americans that their government is not out to get you or kill you.

Apparently, the Police feel differently.

Particularly young unarmed black dudes.  Though sometimes the neighborhood watch joins in.  Really it is a national disgrace.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 09:23:58 AM
Maybe Ferguson should just be absorbed into St. Louis.  Or would St. Louis want it?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 09:57:49 AM
Man this is just crazy how out of control the Ferguson cops are.  Jailing reporters and shutting down cameras and gassing peaceful protestors.  No wonder the situation went ape shit.  WTF?  Were they trying to start a riot?  It is also interesting just how universal the condemnation is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 10:02:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 09:57:49 AM
Man this is just crazy how out of control the Ferguson cops are.  Jailing reporters and shutting down cameras and gassing peaceful protestors.  No wonder the situation went ape shit.  WTF?  Were they trying to start a riot?  It is also interesting just how universal the condemnation is.

I don't know enough to say one way or the other, but I suppose one could make the argument that those extreme measures were in response to the initial unrest.  Not that it necessarily would validate them.  Also, they are obviously getting some outside help, so who knows at this point who is running the show.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Alcibiades on August 14, 2014, 10:06:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 09:57:49 AM
Man this is just crazy how out of control the Ferguson cops are.  Jailing reporters and shutting down cameras and gassing peaceful protestors.  No wonder the situation went ape shit.  WTF?  Were they trying to start a riot?  It is also interesting just how universal the condemnation is.

According to NPR after dark the protestors become rioters essentially.  Lots of damage and looting to local shops.  Apparently the 'protesters' were throwing molotov cocktails at police last night.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:09:55 AM
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there, but at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot which, I'll note, is substantially more than the police or city leaders have attempted to do until the police chief made a statement yesterday. 
Granted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 10:28:37 AM
Quote from: Alcibiades on August 14, 2014, 10:06:31 AM
According to NPR after dark the protestors become rioters essentially.  Lots of damage and looting to local shops.  Apparently the 'protesters' were throwing molotov cocktails at police last night.

Yep when law and order breaks down looting tends to commence.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 14, 2014, 11:09:52 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:09:55 AM
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there, but at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot which, I'll note, is substantially more than the police or city leaders have attempted to do until the police chief made a statement yesterday. 
Granted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.

They're too busy working the lines with the Gestapo DHS trying to get a few used MRAPs and SAWs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 11:22:08 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:09:55 AM
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there,

:lol: He's been a joke since the 80s and you know it.  You're just pretending to respect him because he has that awesome PMSNBC show.  RESIST WE MUCH

Quotebut at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot 

Is he?  IIRC he was mostly whipping up the crowd, chanting "No justice, no peace."

QuoteGranted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.

Yep.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 14, 2014, 11:58:49 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 08:21:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 08:16:57 AM
Hardly any Asians or Latinos though how weird is that?

Sounds like Cincy.

They tend to live in the places that have been growing in the past 50 years. Except Arabs, who for some reason have gravitated to Detroit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 11:22:08 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:09:55 AM
derspiess'll be your typical racist and goof on Reverend Al going there,

:lol: He's been a joke since the 80s and you know it.  You're just pretending to respect him because he has that awesome PMSNBC show.  RESIST WE MUCH

You'll notice the civil rights movement doesn't get involved when law enforcement does its job.  They don't show up when armed young black men get shot by the police. They don't show up when the civic leaders do their jobs.

Quote
Quotebut at least he's talking to the public and telling them not to riot 

Is he?  IIRC he was mostly whipping up the crowd, chanting "No justice, no peace."

Yeah, he is. A public appeal to peace and a cessation to looting that trivializes Brown's death is not "whipping up" the crowd. But you probably didn't see the assembly, since you can't see or hear too good through that Klan shroud.

Quote
QuoteGranted, it's only a 50 many department, but they've really dropped the ball on this, and keep turning a PR nightmare into a bigger PR nightmare.

Yep.

Don't "yup" me, this is all right up your alley.  A police department in over its head, with city and state officials completely mute, is an opportunity to shoot more of those damned dirty negros.
Go buy another gun, I'm sure there's a white sale somewhere.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 12:46:05 PM
Al Sharpton. Ugh.

I used to love the parody of him that was feature on Law & Order.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 12:48:12 PM
 :lol: Geez Seedy
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
You'll notice the civil rights movement doesn't get involved when law enforcement does its job.  They don't show up when armed young black men get shot by the police. They don't show up when the civic leaders do their jobs.

:lol: That was true back in the day.  Today, not so much. 

Quote
Don't "yup" me, this is all right up your alley.  A police department in over its head, with city and state officials completely mute, is an opportunity to shoot more of those damned dirty negros.
Go buy another gun, I'm sure there's a white sale somewhere.

I was agreeing with you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 01:21:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 12:48:12 PM
:lol: Geez Seedy

"Whipping up the crowd"  :rolleyes:

ENOUGH WITH THE SLAVERY IMAGERY ALREADY
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Quote

Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

Civil rights icon Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.) called on President Barack Obama to declare martial law in Ferguson, Missouri, where police and protesters have clashed after a police officer shot and killed unarmed black teenager Michael Brown on Saturday.

"It is very sad and unbelievable. It's unreal to see what the police is doing there," Lewis said in a Thursday interview with MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell. "First of all, Ferguson, Missouri, is part of the United States of America. People have a right to protest. They have a right to dissent. They have a right to march in an orderly, peaceful, nonviolent fashion. And the press has a right to cover it."

Lewis, whose skull was fractured by police during the 1965 march over the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama, told Mitchell that the situation in Ferguson reminds him of "the '40s, the '50s, the '60s," pointing to the dearth of black officers on the St. Louis suburb's police force.

"So my own feeling, right now, is that President Obama should use the authority of his office to declare martial law. Federalize the Missouri National Guard to protect people as they protest," Lewis said. "And people should come together. Reasonable elected officials, community leaders and address what is happening there."

He continued: "If we fail to act, the fires of frustration and discontent will continue to burn, not only in Ferguson, Missouri, but all across America."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/john-lewis-ferguson_n_5679033.html#203_watch-footage-taken-after-ryan-reillys-arrest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/john-lewis-ferguson_n_5679033.html#203_watch-footage-taken-after-ryan-reillys-arrest)


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:11:12 PM
I thought this tweet by Erick Erickson was quite striking, 'Shouldn't have to wait for a white kid from a rich neighborhood to die to recognize more police are acting like heavy handed paramilitaries'.

Also Rand Paul:
http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:23:18 PM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAj5-bCMAA4b_t.jpg:small)

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:33:00 PM
:lol:

An Arab journo I follow on Twitter did ask if Qatar had  already chosen a proxy in the Ferguson Spring.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 04:35:26 PM
QuoteTips For Being An Unarmed Black Teen
INFOGRAPHIC • Civil Rights • Race • Violence • News • ISSUE 50•32 • Aug 14, 2014

With riots raging in Ferguson, Missouri following the shooting death by police of an unarmed African-American youth, the nation has turned its eyes toward police brutality, social injustice, and the continuing crisis of race relations throughout the U.S. Here are The Onion's tips for being an unarmed black teen in America:

Shy away from dangerous, heavily policed areas.
Avoid swaggering or any other confident behavior that suggests you are not completely subjugated.
Be sure not to pick up any object that could be perceived by a police officer as a firearm, such as a cell phone, a food item, or nothing.
Explain in clear and logical terms that you do not enjoy being shot, and would prefer that it not happen.
Don't let society stereotype you as a petty criminal. Remember that you can be seen as so much more, from an armed robbery suspect, to a rape suspect, to a murder suspect.
Try to see it from a police officer's point of view: You may be unarmed, but you're also black.
Avoid wearing clothing associated with the gang lifestyle, such as shirts and pants.
Revel in the fact that by simply existing, you exert a threatening presence over the nation's police force.
Be as polite and straightforward as possible when police officers are kicking the shit out of you.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tips-for-being-an-unarmed-black-teen,36697/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 04:48:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

:lol:

Actually it's not the worst idea.  The governor has already sent in the Highway Patrol.  If the Patrol fails, you send in the National Guard.  Whatever the grievances the public has against the police department rioting should occur.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

It's not that irrational.  For a variety of reasons blacks commit crimes and a much greater rate than whites.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 04:48:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

:lol:

Actually it's not the worst idea.  The governor has already sent in the Highway Patrol.  If the Patrol fails, you send in the National Guard.  Whatever the grievances the public has against the police department rioting should occur.

Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country. 

Historically or currently?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:54:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country. 

Historically or currently?

Currently.  They are generally always in the shittiest shape in all the stats.  It goes Whitey, Latinos, Blacks.  Asians not being important or whatever.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:55:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic6.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53e9f2066bb3f75f496a5f10%2Fferguson-missouri-has-turned-into-a-war-zone-as-riots-over-police-shooting-take-hold-of-the-town.jpg&hash=2de79997fa2503636df92d0845b3e6d7a54f460b)

Except, perhaps, better disciplined?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

It's not that irrational.  For a variety of reasons blacks commit crimes and a much greater rate than whites.

Is the rate statistically significant in absolute terms to justify the prejudice?

More importantly, what are the statistics on violent crimes against unrelated third parties when you compare white and black populaces (as opposed to drug related crimes or gang related crimes, for example, where fear of a populace prone to commit such crimes would indeed be quite irrational).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:59:06 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:55:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic6.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53e9f2066bb3f75f496a5f10%2Fferguson-missouri-has-turned-into-a-war-zone-as-riots-over-police-shooting-take-hold-of-the-town.jpg&hash=2de79997fa2503636df92d0845b3e6d7a54f460b)

Except, perhaps, better disciplined?

Better disciplined and more restrictive.  Unless it's some benevolent version of martial law I'm unfamiliar with.

I'm not defending the tactics currently being used, mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:54:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country. 

Historically or currently?

Currently.  They are generally always in the shittiest shape in all the stats.  It goes Whitey, Latinos, Blacks.  Asians not being important or whatever.

I thought you meant literally beaten down.  Because that is not the case.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 05:01:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:59:48 PM
I thought you meant literally beaten down.  Because that is not the case.

Is there an ethnic group around here known for being physically beaten down?  Anyway yeah I meant figuratively.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 14, 2014, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 05:01:21 PM
Is there an ethnic group around here known for being physically beaten down?  Anyway yeah I meant figuratively.

Nerds.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 05:05:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 05:01:21 PM
Is there an ethnic group around here known for being physically beaten down?  Anyway yeah I meant figuratively.

Well, you said fear. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:23:18 PM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAj5-bCMAA4b_t.jpg:small)

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html)

At least after the news crew fled the police were nice enough to dismantle their gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 05:12:01 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 04:48:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Rep. John Lewis On Ferguson: 'Declare Martial Law'

:lol:

Actually it's not the worst idea.  The governor has already sent in the Highway Patrol.  If the Patrol fails, you send in the National Guard.  Whatever the grievances the public has against the police department rioting should occur.

Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.

Martial law is what you do when you the police can't handle the situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: katmai on August 14, 2014, 05:15:18 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 14, 2014, 04:23:18 PM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAj5-bCMAA4b_t.jpg:small)

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/live-news/2014/8/al-jazeera-americareportergetshitwithteargasinferguson.html)

At least after the news crew fled the police were nice enough to dismantle their gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUcNnt0yEg)

All they were using is couple of 1x1's eh?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 05:18:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:55:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:


Except, perhaps, better disciplined?

I've been in disaster zones when the National Guard is called out, and not to sound ungrateful for them being there, but they sort of seemed worthless. It seemed like their role was to stand around and watch while local police and fire did stuff.

Which when I reflected on it, doesn't seem to odd. They are usually part time, and trained to be military. Why would you expect a 25 year old who spends most of his time in a random civilian job and a few weeks in military training to be effective in a disaster situation in the US?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 05:20:06 PM
Indeed.  Their major role in civil unrest situations was to mostly stand around and look intimidating with all the mil-spec gear.  Local police are taking over that role themselves more these days.

The only way to one-up the po-po now is to roll out some Abrams tanks and fly in Apaches.  Maybe they could also pack some tear gas into an MLRS.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 05:18:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 04:55:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Martial law rarely sounds like a good idea, certainly not here.
How is it different than this:


Except, perhaps, better disciplined?

I've been in disaster zones when the National Guard is called out, and not to sound ungrateful for them being there, but they sort of seemed worthless. It seemed like their role was to stand around and watch while local police and fire did stuff.

Which when I reflected on it, doesn't seem to odd. They are usually part time, and trained to be military. Why would you expect a 25 year old who spends most of his time in a random civilian job and a few weeks in military training to be effective in a disaster situation in the US?

Yeah, I was called out, and mostly our purpose was to provide warm bodies to do shit like "patrolling" or manning checkpoints. It's not like we had any actual training to do anything actually useful.

Fuck, I was a TOW missile gunner. Unless the tornado dropped some T-80s on us, I wasn't much use...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 05:51:13 PM
Next Military History channel movie..."T-80-nado"?

Russian tank division in East Germany gets pick up by a super tornado and carried into the Fulda Gap...NATO hijinks and hilarity ensue?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 06:07:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2014, 05:44:55 PM


Yeah, I was called out, and mostly our purpose was to provide warm bodies to do shit like "patrolling" or manning checkpoints. It's not like we had any actual training to do anything actually useful.

Fuck, I was a TOW missile gunner. Unless the tornado dropped some T-80s on us, I wasn't much use...

Don't sell yourself short.  Having checkpoints and enforcing a curfew can stop a riot.  The simple presence of an Army can be very persuasive.  It persuaded the rioters in LA and George Wallace in Alabama.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

indians have it worse. jurisdiction has caused a lot of problems.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

indians have it worse. jurisdiction has caused a lot of problems.

Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:00:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 06:32:42 PMProbably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:00:57 PM


nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.

They had a choice. Their ancestors chose to walk across that land bridge out of Eurasia and into the Americas. They need to accept the consequences.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:08:56 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:00:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 06:32:42 PMProbably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.

Maybe that's a Dakota thing. I don't think most people typically have thoughts about Native Americans.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:21:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:08:56 PMMaybe that's a Dakota thing. I don't think most people typically have thoughts about Native Americans.

yeah, i meant up here when i said "most people don't like indians."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:26:19 PM
I dunno, plenty of Languishites would blame the Indians for their own lot in life, since they fail to assimilate themselves and refuse to give up their "culture".  Just another variation of the "don't like it, quit!" Languish theme among the social contract ass-wipers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:43:21 PM
the problem seems to be the reservations' systems of government are fundamentally flawed. i visited one over the summer and discovered how corrupt they can be. the tribal council rules supreme, and the tribal judicial system is not independent. the tribal council can remove a judge arbitrarily.

judge holds a guy in contempt of court -> guy goes to his brother on the tribal council -> tribal council asks the judge to back down -> judge refuses to back down: the judge is removed. the tribal prosecutor said in the eleven years he had worked for the system, he had seen thirteen different judges. and a lot of judges like to start fresh, clean slate for everyone - even the repeat, serious offenders. so, it takes half a year to a year before the judge learns he needs to crack down on the repeat, serious offenders, but then the judge runs off or is sacked. so, the process repeats itself.

added to the mess are tribal judges and attorneys who are allowed to work in the system without having gone to law school, let alone pass the bar. "law-trained" judges can be rare, and judges who have passed the bar can be even rarer. then you have families who dominate most positions of power within the tribe. maybe that family is honest, hardworking, and doing the greater good. or they could be corrupt as sin.

there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:43:21 PM
there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

Since the federal funding is squat to begin with, there's nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:49:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:26:19 PM
I dunno, plenty of Languishites would blame the Indians for their own lot in life, since they fail to assimilate themselves and refuse to give up their "culture".  Just another variation of the "don't like it, quit!" Languish theme among the social contract ass-wipers.

Well, to be honest, as a person who has never had one permanent place of residence, I don't really understand when I've heard Native Americans say things like "I love the reservation" while meanwhile recognizing all of the totally terrible things about it. I have to admit that I'd quit. -_-
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:51:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so. :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:54:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:51:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so. :hug:

Oh sure, take another shot at me living with my parents.  THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:55:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:54:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:51:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so. :hug:

Oh sure, take another shot at me living with my parents.  THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER

I believe that's:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcountrysideanimalclinic.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F01%2Foliver-11.jpg&hash=b4ce884b468029a43be29e9dd8ea8fdd0641f72d)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:57:06 PM
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 07:58:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 07:43:21 PM
there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

Since the federal funding is squat to begin with, there's nothing to worry about.

To be fair, he's right that the reservation thing is a raw deal.  I'm not sure how to fix it.  You could go all Hong Kong just get rid of most government regulations.  That would... change things.  I don't know if it would be better though.  It is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:57:06 PM
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:03:07 PM
Even military types are saying, "That's pretty fucked up, man."

QuoteMilitary veterans see deeply flawed police response in Ferguson
By Thomas Gibbons-Neff August 14 at 12:52 PM

Jet-black rifles leveled at unarmed citizens and mine-resistant vehicles once used to patrol the roadways of Iraq and Afghanistan rumbling through small town America. These are scenes playing out in Ferguson, Mo., which has been racked by protests for the last week following the fatal shooting of an unarmed 19-year-old named Michael Brown.

For veterans of the wars that the Ferguson protests so closely resemble, the police response has appeared to be not only heavy-handed but out of step with the most effective ways for both law enforcement and military personnel to respond to demonstrations.

"You see the police are standing online with bulletproof vests and rifles pointed at peoples chests," said Jason Fritz, a former Army officer and an international policing operations analyst. "That's not controlling the crowd, that's intimidating them."

The protests in Ferguson began in earnest just a day after Brown was killed, when a prayer vigil for the slain teen turned into an evening of looting.

Scriven King, a 10-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force's law enforcement component and a SWAT officer, attributed the initial spasm of violence to a lack of leadership and mismanagement of public  perception on the Ferguson Police Department's behalf.

"The first thing that went wrong was when the police showed up with K-9 units," Scriven said. "The dogs played on racist imagery...it played the situation up and [the department] wasn't cognizant of the imagery."

King added that, instead of deescalating the situation on the second day, the police responded with armored vehicles and SWAT officers clad in bulletproof vests and military-grade rifles.

"We went through some pretty bad areas of Afghanistan, but we didn't wear that much gear," said Kyle Dykstra, an Army veteran and former security officer for the State Department. Dykstra specifically pointed out the bulletproof armor the officers were wearing around their shoulders, known as "Deltoid" armor.

"I can't think of a [protest] situation where the use of M4 [rifles] are merited," Fritz said. "I don't see it as a viable tactic in any scenario."


Ferguson police have defended their handling of the protests and said some demonstrators have been trying to "co-opt" peaceful protests. But while the Ferguson and St. Louis county police departments may have made their presence felt in the streets, they have made only limited use of social media.

"They've kept people in an information black hole," King said, mentioning that their decision not to share details about operations more widely has only exacerbated the situation.

"There has not been a dialogue about the tactical situation the officers faced," he said, referring to the fact that there might have been a reason that caused the officers to respond with such heavy equipment. "There could have been threats to the officers, but that information has not been shared to the public."

As the violence continued to escalate over the course of the week, King said, Ferguson police also exacerbated tensions by allowing individual officers to engage with protesters.

"Officers were calling the protesters 'animals,' " King said. "I can't imagine a military unit would do that in any scenario."

King added that if it were a military unit in a similar situation there would be a public affairs officer or civil affairs engagement team that would help bridge the gap between the riot control elements and the general population.

"I would hate to call the Ferguson response a military one," he said. "Because it isn't, it's an aberration."

To be fair to the Ferguson PD:  these Barney Fife amateurs can't handle two kids walking in the street without shooting one of them, they certainly can't be expected to deal with protesters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:05:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:57:06 PM
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:

:mellow:
I wouldn't expect that sort of response to Oliver!, either.

:mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2014, 08:08:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:05:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:57:06 PM
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:

:mellow:
I wouldn't expect that sort of response to Oliver!, either.

:mellow:

:lol: :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 09:24:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:03:07 PM
Even military types are saying, "That's pretty fucked up, man."

To be fair to the Ferguson PD:  these Barney Fife amateurs can't handle two kids walking in the street without shooting one of them, they certainly can't be expected to deal with protesters.

To be even more fair to the FPD, from the pics I've seen, most of the po-po military wannabees seem to be coming from St Louis County Police. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 14, 2014, 09:28:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
Take pride in your tribe.  :mad:

My tribe is on a 3-13 run, plummeting out of the playoff race, and football season is around the corner. My tribe can fuck itself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 09:24:33 PM
To be even more fair to the FPD, from the pics I've seen, most of the po-po military wannabees seem to be coming from St Louis County Police.

Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

QuoteFor at least a decade, there have been complaints about racial tensions between police and black communities in the St. Louis County area. Communities, some residents say, can have less-experienced, poorly-equipped police departments and highly uneven levels of protection.

This year, St. Louis County invited researchers from the University of California at Los Angeles to help study complaints that county police had engaged in racial profiling and to help them improve protocols for matters ranging from traffic stops to neighborhood monitoring.

This came after a former lieutenant with the county police who had been accused of ordering officers to target black people at stores was fired. An investigation determined that he had made "inappropriate racial references."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/even-before-teen-michael-browns-slaying-in-mo-racial-questions-have-hung-over-police/2014/08/13/78b3c5c6-2307-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 09:54:16 PM
I'll agree that the police response seems heavy-handed, but let's not ignore the complicity of the rioters and looters here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 09:54:16 PM
I'll agree that the police response seems heavy-handed, but let's not ignore the complicity of the rioters and looters here.

12 businesses the first night is not exactly the corner of Florence and Normandy.  But I can see how you'd consider protesters as rioters since the initial incidents Sunday night.

Here, this'll warm your cracker cockles:

QuoteST. LOUIS COUNTY – Nine people face charges for looting in Ferguson that followed the fatal shooting of Michael Brown Sunday night into Monday morning, according to St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch.

The nine face varying felony charges relating to burglary and theft along West Florissant.

Charges have been issued against the following so far:

Stephon Thompson, 19, of St. Louis, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Robert Stephenson, 28, of St. Louis, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant.
Beonca McRath, 19, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge and stealing under $500 for breaking into a Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant. According to court records, McRath stole hair weave from a business.  :lol:
Steven Martin, 27, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Andrew Henry, 30, of St. Louis, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Demarco Harris, 38, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge and charge of stealing under $500 from Nu Fashion Beauty Supply in the 7500 block of West Florissant.
Nikko Fiertag, 23, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge and charge for stealing under $500 worth of shoes from a Foot Locker in the 8000 block of West Florissant.
Michael Davis, 27, of St. Louis County, faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant.
Trey Brewer, 18, of Dallas, Texas faces a second-degree burglary charge for breaking into Princess Beauty Supply in the 6900 block of West Florissant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 10:58:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

indians have it worse. jurisdiction has caused a lot of problems.

Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

Nah.  WE hardly have black people up here, so you want the group that is unfairly maligned and feared, it's natives.

Probably for the same reasons as blacks though - natives are disproportionately represented in crime statistics.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 11:05:48 PM
So it might be most apt to say that poor people are disproportionally represented in crime statistics.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 15, 2014, 02:11:35 AM
Quote


Palestinians Are Sharing Advice With Protesters In Ferguson, Missouri

David M Brooks


As the protests in Ferguson have escalated over the past week, the international community has increasingly turned their attention to the demonstrations stemming from the fatal shooting of an unarmed 18-year-old black man.

Surprisingly, the images and videos of the police crackdown on protesters has resulted in shows of sympathy and support coming all the way from Palestinians in Gaza.

    From occupied Palestine we stand with the oppressed in #Ferguson...#FreePalestine #FergusonRiot pic.twitter.com/AyqCTns3pS   
    — فلسطين i (@iFalasteen) August 14, 2014

    Made in USA teargas canister was shot at us a few days ago in #Palestine by Israel, now they are used in #Ferguson. pic.twitter.com/y3co6DMFM6   
    — مريم البرغوثي (@MariamBarghouti) August 14, 2014

Palestinians have often dealt with tear gas and rubber bullets used against their own protests, and some have been passing on advice on how to deal with them:

    People in Gaza are tweeting information on how to handle tear gas to the citizens of Ferguson.
    — Rabih Alameddine (@rabihalameddine) August 14, 2014

    Don't Keep much distance from the Police, if you're close to them they can't tear Gas. To #Ferguson from #Palestine   
    — Rajai abuKhalilرجائي (@Rajaiabukhalil) August 14, 2014

    Always make sure to run against the wind /to keep calm when you're teargassed, the pain will pass, don't rub your eyes! #Ferguson Solidarity
    — مريم البرغوثي (@MariamBarghouti) August 14, 2014

And as the protests in Ferguson have continued, people in the community have expressed appreciation and mutual support for the people in Gaza.

    The fact Gaza tweeting to the people in Ferguson how to stop tear gas and Ferguson crowd chanting "Free Gaza" is amazing
    — Faithful Black Man (@CountOnRodney) August 14, 2014

Posts showing solidarity have continued to erupt over social media as others become aware of the situation in the U.S. and as groups find commonality in their own struggles.

    Hamde Abu tells #Ferguson that #Palestine knows what it means to be shot for your ethnicity pic.twitter.com/56aKRQHZnI   
    — Rana Nazzal (@zaytouni_rana) August 14, 2014

In Ferguson, the protests on Thursday entered their sixth day as Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon (D) replaced local police forces with patrolman from the State Highway patrol.


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 15, 2014, 02:41:24 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 08:05:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 07:57:06 PM
You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what. :mellow:

:mellow:
I wouldn't expect that sort of response to Oliver!, either.

:mellow:

  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 15, 2014, 02:45:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
It is rather bizarre.  I mean black people are the most beaten down people in this country.  Weird we should fear them.  It is like the irrational hatred of jews, just do not get that one.

It's not that irrational.  For a variety of reasons blacks commit crimes and a much greater rate than whites.

Is the rate statistically significant in absolute terms to justify the prejudice?

More importantly, what are the statistics on violent crimes against unrelated third parties when you compare white and black populaces (as opposed to drug related crimes or gang related crimes, for example, where fear of a populace prone to commit such crimes would indeed be quite irrational).

Bump. The floor is yours, counsellor. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 15, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 09:40:53 AM
Quote from: Barrister on August 15, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

We know that but we still use the term.  Good day, sir. :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:45:32 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2014, 09:54:16 PM
I'll agree that the police response seems heavy-handed, but let's not ignore the complicity of the rioters and looters here.

Dude the cops lost control by gassing peaceful protestors and shit went down.  The cops job is to preserve law and order not destroy it themselves.  I guess I don't get the argument that saying the cops are responsible for the breakdown is ignoring the breakdown.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
I'm diggin' the Black panther police hat dude :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk7sAvqqEJU
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 10:11:28 AM
I don't have a problem with law abiding people open carrying, regardless of race. 

I do frown on people flaunting it, but that's a different discussion.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 15, 2014, 10:19:23 AM
Quote from: Barrister on August 15, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

We Americans prefer our irreverent references to cops be rhyming.  Hence "local yokel" and "county mountie." :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 15, 2014, 11:41:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.

Possibly because there is a democratic governor and democratic president (not that the president matters)?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 11:42:08 AM
For some reason I always lost people using gendarme, even though Judge Gerstung would do shit like set court dates for Bastille Day.

"Your trial date is set for this Bastille Day.  You do know when Bastille Day is, don't you?"
*cut to defense attorney furiously flipping through DayRunner*
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 15, 2014, 12:23:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 15, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

Probably because we watched Smokie & the Bandit II as kids.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 01:24:14 PM
Hmm...
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 01:46:30 PM
Yes, an unarmed shoplifter certainly requires as much deadly force as an unarmed teen.

Too bad he wasn't pulled up in the street for shoplifting.

Though now I've seen photos of the kid in contrast to your standard tiny Pakistani old guy, I can see the officer's reasoning in the application of deadly force during a Code BFN scenario.


PD could've saved themselves a lot of bullshit this week in releasing this info.  There is no reason to conceal it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

It's a matter of perception.

"Giant caught almost red-handed after strong-arm robbery gets shot by cops in confrontation" has a different tone to it than "kid minding his own business walking down the street gets murdered for no apparent reason by (racist?) cop".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 15, 2014, 01:54:11 PM
What difference does it make whether he just robbed a store or not?

It isn't like it would be ok to shoot him based on that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2014, 01:54:11 PM
What difference does it make whether he just robbed a store or not?

It isn't like it would be ok to shoot him based on that.

Obviously not.

It simply changes the public perception of the incident.

We must still wait for the actual facts to be sifted. But the intital scenario sounded like a case of the cops harrasing and profiling a wholly innocent man - in short, that the cops initiated the confrontation (maybe because they were racist). Now, it seems more like they were doing their jobs. We still need to know exactly what went down, but the cop's story - which I understand is that the guy they shot went for his gun - is sounding a trifle more likely, if the guy is a criminal caught nearly red-handed, than if he is just some random guy.

None of which will change the facts if it turns out the guy was shot in the back from a distance - it is hard to see how that could be justified under *any* possible scenario.

Also, the real story here is probably police over-reaction to rioting and protests. That doesn't change, if the intital cop was guilty or innocent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 02:09:17 PM
What I originally heard was that he had shoplifted and ran from the cops and they shot him.  The cops inexplicably had no dashcam which is just crazy.  The can afford a freaking APC and automatic rifles but no dashcams?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 01:24:14 PM
Hmm...
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true

The issue is that the video of the robbery shows a man with sandals on his feet. The picture of Michael Brown's body shows him wearing high-top sneakers.

Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.

Oh for...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 02:19:46 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 01:24:14 PM
Hmm...
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true

The issue is that the video of the robbery shows a man with sandals on his feet. The picture of Michael Brown's body shows him wearing high-top sneakers.

Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.
According to what I've read, the other fellow admitted the two of them did the shoplifting/robbery - or at least, that's what his lawyer said.

QuoteJohnson acknowledged to the FBI and other investigators that he and Brown went to the store and "that he did take cigarillos," his attorney, Freeman Bosley, told MSNBC.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ferguson/article20073213/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:21:36 PM
Wonder how the shoe thing happened, then. I've seen the pics, and it does appear that they have two different kinds of shoes on.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 02:51:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.

Looking at that Breitbart site, I get the impression the those people are animals and police needs to come down harder on them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 02:54:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 02:51:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
Incidentally, I suspect the folks in Fergusson are not what the open carry advocates have in mind.

I don't know.  Most of the nutty right wingers I see tend to be on the folks in Fergusson's side.  Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, who Spicey cruises and stands with, have said so.  This may be another horrible symptom of irrational fear of the black man but publicly everybody seems to be against the cops on this one.

Looking at that Breitbart site, I get the impression the those people are animals and police needs to come down harder on them.

Well I guess there are always nuttier right wingers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 15, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
The issue is that the video of the robbery shows a man with sandals on his feet. The picture of Michael Brown's body shows him wearing high-top sneakers.

Deadly force is ridiculous in this case, anyway, but now it also appears that the shot the wrong guy.

What it really means is there's a bully shoplifter on the loose, and no stone will be left unturned, no rubber bulet left unfired and no unarmed black teen left unshot until this criminal is caught.

Bet his ass grabbed some Skittles, too.  There's your motive and shoot/don't shoot green light right there.  Taste the rainbow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 03:03:54 PM
First that guy in NY with the untaxed cigarettes; now this guy and the cigarillos.

Is there any doubt that smoking kills?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 15, 2014, 03:09:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 02:51:55 PM
Looking at that Breitbart site, I get the impression the those people are animals and police needs to come down harder on them.

Breitbart's dead, you should stop looking for guidance from his website.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Scipio on August 15, 2014, 04:43:03 PM
If the appropriate response to shoplifting a box of cigarillos or obstructing traffic is shooting the perpetrator, my police department is doing things all wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on August 15, 2014, 04:48:14 PM
Quote from: Scipio on August 15, 2014, 04:43:03 PM
If the appropriate response to shoplifting a box of cigarillos or obstructing traffic is shooting the perpetrator, my police department is doing things all wrong.

Apparently the shooting was unconnected to the shop-lifting. The shooting officer was unaware of the shoplifting incident, and the police department has apologized for implying that the two were connected.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 15, 2014, 05:02:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 15, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
Yeah, the county mounties seem to have a nasty reputation in their own right.

I've heard the phrase "county mountie" used here in Canada, but it's use in the US seems bizarre.  Since, you know, you don't have any mounties. :huh:

Stop being a goof.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 05:22:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 15, 2014, 04:48:14 PM
Quote from: Scipio on August 15, 2014, 04:43:03 PM
If the appropriate response to shoplifting a box of cigarillos or obstructing traffic is shooting the perpetrator, my police department is doing things all wrong.

Apparently the shooting was unconnected to the shop-lifting. The shooting officer was unaware of the shoplifting incident, and the police department has apologized for implying that the two were connected.

I wonder if the kid knew that.  It does complicate things though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on August 15, 2014, 02:00:55 PM
Obviously not.

It simply changes the public perception of the incident.
Okay. But my view after, like the rest of us, watching a few of these is that the biggest influence of perception is the immediate and total racial element to the story. Which goes both in terms of how the story's told and how it's received.

The view I get, from this forum and reading stories about American cops, is about the whole militarisation of the police that leads to a town like Ferguson  having a police force better armed than the RUC in Belfast during the troubles. That and that I should never stop grovelling and doffing my cap to American police 'officers'.

Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 15, 2014, 05:54:17 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
That and that I should never stop grovelling and doffing my cap to American police 'officers'.

I find it better to just not look them in the eye. No reason to call attention to yourself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

This is not the policing I knew 20 years ago.  This is not the kind of policing we did.

Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on August 15, 2014, 05:59:10 PM
Interesting writeup from a reporter who went to Ferguson: http://grantland.com/features/ferguson-missouri-protest-michael-brown-murder-police/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
^^^^^^^^
This right here, IMO, is the biggest problem with PD's nowadays. Badge heavy, PTSD ex-military cops that have no business wearing a badge. Let alone carrying a gun.

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 15, 2014, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

His mustache?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:23:43 PM
Quote from: frunk on August 15, 2014, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

His mustache?

Dont be "that" guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on August 15, 2014, 06:32:59 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
^^^^^^^^
This right here, IMO, is the biggest problem with PD's nowadays. Badge heavy, PTSD ex-military cops that have no business wearing a badge. Let alone carrying a gun.

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

Thanks, two interesting views from the coalfaces, so to speak.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 07:00:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Policing is (not unconnectedly I imagine) like guns for me. There's just a vast cultural gulf. The best I can do is try and understand.

But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
^^^^^^^^
This right here, IMO, is the biggest problem with PD's nowadays. Badge heavy, PTSD ex-military cops that have no business wearing a badge. Let alone carrying a gun.

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

Eh, you are always going to get a share of the bullies and jackasses.  You can't turn them all away because they make up such a significant number of applicants.  The sad truth is that a lot of people become cops so they can throw their weight around.  The people who would make good cops often don't apply.  The best you can do is have a strict organization and keep them on a short leash.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 15, 2014, 07:03:53 PM
My dad once asked me why I didn't become a cop like him. I told him there would be too many bodies in the Morgues.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 15, 2014, 07:03:53 PM
My dad once asked me why I didn't become a cop like him. I told him there would be too many bodies in the Morgues.

Also you wouldn't be able to afford a home in France.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:14:07 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM
I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

That, IMHO, is the biggest problem BPD has, and why the "Stop Snitching" culture is so ingrained here;  nobody talks to the cops, because the cops aren't talking to them.
 
What is police work?  When somebody is bitching about their garbage pick-up and getting the run-around from the city, you don't say "hey, that's not my job."  You come back a few days later with a name and a phone number for them to call.  Because that is what gets you picked out from all the other cops on a scene by somebody who has something to say--"I ain't talking to Jones, he a thug, I'll talk to Ryan"--and you will catch up with them later.  And they'll give you a name.  That is police work.   

That's what I never understood why they had the attitudes.  Don't worry about the knuckleheads and the action, there will always be plenty of that to go around, you don't need to look for it.

Giving two teens shit for walking in the street?  You fucking kidding me?  You don't have anything better to do?  Dropping a choke hold on a guy for something like untaxed cigarettes that only warranted a citation?  End your career and possibly go to jail because you couldn't be bothered to talk to him for 10 more minutes?  Choking out a guy from behind when he's already cuffed and not fighting? 

Couldn't work with those guys, and they wouldn't be able to work with me.  Especially that one motherfucker that laid his hands on another cop's prisoner a while back.  That happened to me once, and we damned near came to blows right then and there.  My cuffs, my prisoner.  You don't fucking touch him.  Goddamn, that video made me mad.

Need to go back to community policing, and do it old school.  First thing I'd do is kick everybody out of their cars and get them walking the beat.  You can't police a community from behind rolled up windows and a mobile data terminal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 15, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 07:00:40 PMThe people who would make good cops often don't apply.

Or are not allowed to even interview for a position.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 15, 2014, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:23:43 PM
Quote from: frunk on August 15, 2014, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 15, 2014, 06:17:58 PM

I will still maintain that a cops best tool is the one below his nose.

His mustache?

Dont be "that" guy.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fyuq.me%2Ftv%2F02%2F832%2F4979.jpg&hash=927764dd44f20a880b97d0a61a4069d879bee19b)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
QuoteDeputy Travis Junior: To me it doesn't make sense if you gotta pray facin' a certain way... if God's everywhere shouldn't you be able to face any which way when you pray? Like is his receiver somewhere in the Middle East and he's listening to the receiver or somethin'?

Deputy James Garcia: Yeah, it's like, I have a plan with God but it's like a bad cell plan, doesn't work in certain areas.

Deputy Travis Junior: Five calls a day.

Deputy James Garcia: See I got anytime minutes with my God.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 15, 2014, 07:35:48 PM
I think part of the militarization has to do with the risk aversion we've developed. When the powers that be are arresting a mother for leaving a 9 year old unsupervised in the park, or giving out million dollar judgments for spilling coffee on yourself, or mandating bicycle helmets, what do you think they will do when it comes to something genuinely dangerous like policing in troubled neighborhoods? Maybe it used to be acceptable, even in more violent times, to just knock on the door and talk to a likely criminal, but now you need the security of an armored vehicle.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 15, 2014, 07:48:25 PM
Plus the expecation that you'll get killed if the cop freaks out and later says, "we didn't know that the 90 yr old man's cane WASN'T a pump action shot gun."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 07:50:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

I wasn't aware of that. All I knew was that Michael Brown was getting ready to go to college. Oh, and also that he was getting ready to go to college. And that he was executed in cold blood.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 08:39:16 PM
At least when garbon rolls his eyes, he uses the :rolleyes: smiley.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 07:50:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

I wasn't aware of that. All I knew was that Michael Brown was getting ready to go to college. Oh, and also that he was getting ready to go to college. And that he was executed in cold blood.

Also he was black and probably "living the stereotype".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:16:18 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.

For me it was Paris. There were cops with machine guns at the entrance to the Louvre.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jaron on August 16, 2014, 01:51:07 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2014, 07:50:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
I thought it was well known he had shoplifted it was the whole 'shot while unarmed thing' that was the problem.

I wasn't aware of that. All I knew was that Michael Brown was getting ready to go to college. Oh, and also that he was getting ready to go to college. And that he was executed in cold blood.

:blink:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 16, 2014, 01:55:11 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/turning-policemen-into-soldiers-the-culmination-of-a-long-trend/376052/

QuoteTurning Policemen Into Soldiers, the Culmination of a Long Trend

Another poisoned fruit of the post-9/11 sensibility

The images from Missouri of stormtrooper-looking police confronting their citizens naturally raises the question: how the hell did we get to this point? When did the normal cops become Navy SEALs? What country is this, anyway?

There will be more and more mainstream coverage of the modern militarization of the police, a phenomenon mainly of the post-9/11 years. For reference/aggregation purposes, here is a guide to further reading:

1) The Book on this topic: Rise of the Warrior Cop, by Radley Balko. It came out a year ago and is more timely now than ever.

2) "Lockdown Nation," a Peter Moskos review of Balko's book last year in PS magazine.

3) "How the War on Terror Has Militarized the Police," an Atlantic dispatch by Arthur Rizer and Joseph Hartman three years ago.

4) "Tanks in Small Towns," a web item I did in 2011 on signs of this trend, including this photo of a police force in South Carolina:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fnewsroom%2Fimg%2Fposts%2F2014%2F08%2FSOuthCarolinaTank%2Fc36b33da2.jpg&hash=1d0456d9cf63f5e1bbfab84f604e894aef2a6fc0)

And this one from a small town in Virginia:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fnewsroom%2Fimg%2Fposts%2F2014%2F08%2FVirginiaPOlice%2Feacd359a2.jpg&hash=d2ef4c24d428efc34110adf68a785af4f0c89c2c)

And this from Florida:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fnewsroom%2Fimg%2Fposts%2F2014%2F08%2FTampaCops_1%2F5b180d7af.jpg&hash=2450fb385a73094e4ef6cb26cd2b6a10bd1e69aa)

5) Some other Atlantic coverage here, here, here.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/turning-patrolmen-into-soldiers-how-did-we-let-this-happen/248828/
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/uc-davis-update-featuring-catopticon-and-tanks-in-small-towns/248793/
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/the-moral-power-of-an-image-uc-davis-reactions/248778/

6) Update: An important and well-illustrated report by Matt Apuzzo in the NYT two months ago, called "War Gear Flows to Police Departments."

7) Update^2: A new report from Alec MacGillis in TNR on how "anti-terrorist" funding from DHS has equipped police forces with this CENTCOM-style war gear.

This Ferguson, Missouri episode is obviously about race, and is (another) occasion for pointing readers to Ta-Nehisi Coates's powerful "Reparations" article. It is also about how we govern ourselves, and about how far the ramifying self-damage of the post-9/11 era has gone.

"Self-damage"? All the literature about terrorism emphasizes that the harm directly done in an attack is nothing compared with the self-destructive reactions it can induce. From Fallujah to Ferguson, that is part of what we're seeing now.

I won't belabor that theme for the moment but will say: Perhaps these incredible police-state-like images will have some attention-focusing or "enough!" effect, like their counterparts from another era (below). Meanwhile, check out Balko's book.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fnewsroom%2Fimg%2Fposts%2F2014%2F08%2FFireHose_thumb_580x425_69800%2F5d37b8ad7.png&hash=c7c1ff50d4889ef64cc47f4c5803ff833e6d8130)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jaron on August 16, 2014, 01:57:33 AM
I'm glad we stopped the militarization of the fire departments.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 02:05:37 AM
That seems to be a separate issue.  The kid wasn't shot with a tank, just a cop with a gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: celedhring on August 16, 2014, 03:28:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:16:18 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 05:56:59 PM
Back then, only LAPD had that kind of militaristic, adversarial philosophy.  But post-9/11, with the Homeland Security grant bonanza combined with the massive influx of combat veteran soldiers into a profession whose only trait it has in common with soldiering is the concept of a rank structure, it has become the norm.
Yeah. It just seems so far from 'police by consent' that I have about as much understanding of American cops as of French gendarmes running through Gare du Nord with what looked to me, as a shit-scared fourteen year old, like machine guns.
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.

For me it was Paris. There were cops with machine guns at the entrance to the Louvre.

Spanish police uses them in roadblocks when they are looking for armed/dangerous subjects (like ETA terrorists). Been stopped by machine-gun wielding cops many a time in the 80s-90s.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 04:00:29 AM
Yeah, I noticed that in Europe.  Thought it strange that the police carry machine pistols.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on August 16, 2014, 04:10:51 AM
I don't think Swedish cops have machine guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 16, 2014, 07:16:22 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
QuoteDeputy Travis Junior: To me it doesn't make sense if you gotta pray facin' a certain way... if God's everywhere shouldn't you be able to face any which way when you pray? Like is his receiver somewhere in the Middle East and he's listening to the receiver or somethin'?

Deputy James Garcia: Yeah, it's like, I have a plan with God but it's like a bad cell plan, doesn't work in certain areas.

Deputy Travis Junior: Five calls a day.

Deputy James Garcia: See I got anytime minutes with my God.

That is my favorite episode, white devil. :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 16, 2014, 08:07:47 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:07 PM
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.
When and where was that? Because I remember being really freaked out by that after the 7/7 bombings around many central London tube stops. It was weird.

QuoteYeah, I noticed that in Europe.  Thought it strange that the police carry machine pistols.
In the UK they're generally a special armed response unit that are, from my understanding, pretty well trained. The only permanently armed force are the police for nuclear facilities.

Though my mum works in the nuclear industry and I went on a couple of site visits as a kid and I don't remember ever seeing them. So I don't know what they do or where they are :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on August 16, 2014, 09:28:29 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 16, 2014, 08:07:47 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:07 PM
Which is funny, since the first time I remember seeing police with machine guns was actually in London.
When and where was that? Because I remember being really freaked out by that after the 7/7 bombings around many central London tube stops. It was weird.
Right in front of Number 10. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 16, 2014, 09:43:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 16, 2014, 08:07:47 AM
In the UK they're generally a special armed response unit that are, from my understanding, pretty well trained. The only permanently armed force are the police for nuclear facilities.

Though my mum works in the nuclear industry and I went on a couple of site visits as a kid and I don't remember ever seeing them. So I don't know what they do or where they are :lol:

Indeed, that's the difference.  Not the "AR in every car" shit some departments on this side of the pond are moving towards.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 10:59:45 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 16, 2014, 09:43:40 AM
Indeed, that's the difference.  Not the "AR in every car" shit some departments on this side of the pond are moving towards.

Funny how the "AR in every car" mentality has filtered down to the Teabagger-2nd-Amendent types with absolutely no ramifications whatsoever.

You can carry an AR into a department store, you can bring your AR to a (black) presidential candidate's rally, you can even bring your AR with you so you and your friends can threaten Federal agents enforcing the law and openly challenge the government with armed resistance. 

Armed white people = Good
Unarmed black people = Dead
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 16, 2014, 11:39:42 AM
No shit.  I have the "pleasure" of living next to the epicenter of this bullshit, too. <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 16, 2014, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 10:59:45 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 16, 2014, 09:43:40 AM
Indeed, that's the difference.  Not the "AR in every car" shit some departments on this side of the pond are moving towards.

Funny how the "AR in every car" mentality has filtered down to the Teabagger-2nd-Amendent types with absolutely no ramifications whatsoever.

You can carry an AR into a department store, you can bring your AR to a (black) presidential candidate's rally, you can even bring your AR with you so you and your friends can threaten Federal agents enforcing the law and openly challenge the government with armed resistance. 

Armed white people = Good
Unarmed black people = Dead
Armed white people = patriots
armed black people = dangerous

That's how they justify themselves.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 05:26:53 PM
I want that M-113 command APC.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 05:48:59 PM
What a fucking mess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 06:10:23 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 05:26:53 PM
I want that M-113 command APC.

I don't think the lil' missus would appreciate all the donuts in the front yard.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 16, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 05:26:53 PM
I want that M-113 command APC.

That would be an M577 ......monkey boy
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 06:13:30 PM
LOLZ GREEN DRAGOWNED
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 06:34:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 16, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 05:26:53 PM
I want that M-113 command APC.

That would be an M577 ......monkey boy

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0mdxE1o.jpg&hash=edab19c7a734268b5ed5544501b9a07019bc6c2b)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on August 16, 2014, 06:48:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 05:48:59 PM
What a fucking mess.

This thread, the situation in Missouri, the militarization of the police, all three or something else ?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 16, 2014, 06:57:05 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 06:34:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 16, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 05:26:53 PM
I want that M-113 command APC.

That would be an M577 ......monkey boy

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0mdxE1o.jpg&hash=edab19c7a734268b5ed5544501b9a07019bc6c2b)

With your display of accurate knowledge of armored vehicles, you probably gave it to Raz's mom.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 16, 2014, 06:59:31 PM
I'll just call it a Tiger tank next time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on August 16, 2014, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:14:07 PM
Giving two teens shit for walking in the street?  You fucking kidding me? 
You come across a couple of guys walking in the middle of the street and obstructing traffic and you just drive by? Why aren't you a cop anymore again?

Also, some people have been calling the incident at the convienance store "shoplifting." In Washington at least, shoplifting (theft in the third degree) is a misdemeanor. What this guy did, on the other hand, would be robbery in the 2nd degree - a class B felony (class A is for things like first degree murder, rape-rape, armed robbery and the like). Depending on the guy's record, he could be looking at serious prison time. I would assume the situation is similar in Missouri. So while this doesn't prove that the cop is telling the truth, it at least makes his story that the guy was violent and going for the cop's gun more plausible.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2014, 08:27:00 PM
Quote from: Kleves on August 16, 2014, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2014, 07:14:07 PM
Giving two teens shit for walking in the street?  You fucking kidding me? 
You come across a couple of guys walking in the middle of the street and obstructing traffic and you just drive by? Why aren't you a cop anymore again?

Because I couldn't work with asshole cops that let something as trivial as two kids walking in the street get them all torqued up into niggerknocker mode.  Assholes like that get you in trouble, like getting you roped up with them in a shooting.  OH WAIT

It's a fucking city, people walk in the street.  Burp the siren, they move out of the way.  They always do.  But obviously Ferguson PD doesn't have enough calls for service, they can waste their time with that sort of nonsense, jawing with noodleheads.   
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 16, 2014, 09:04:27 PM
Well it's not much of a city, only about 50k.  Actually asking the kids to get out of the street would have been the right decision, as it would lead the officer to a robbery suspect.  Can't say about the next decisions, obviously something went wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 16, 2014, 07:20:22 PM
Also, some people have been calling the incident at the convienance store "shoplifting." In Washington at least, shoplifting (theft in the third degree) is a misdemeanor. What this guy did, on the other hand, would be robbery in the 2nd degree - a class B felony (class A is for things like first degree murder, rape-rape, armed robbery and the like). Depending on the guy's record, he could be looking at serious prison time. I would assume the situation is similar in Missouri. So while this doesn't prove that the cop is telling the truth, it at least makes his story that the guy was violent and going for the cop's gun more plausible.

Ok.  Again I thought the original story was 'cops try to arrest unarmed dude for stealing something and shot him dead'.  Of course now we know the cop had no idea the guy was involved with the incident.

However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on.  But stealing that shit from the store is about priority number 2 million by now.  It is only money, this is a full blown national disgrace and disaster unfolding that threatens the legitimacy of the cops everywhere.  Not to mention the fact the whole world is now watching this shit on livestream every night with little kids and the press being gassed.

  This is about the cops escalating the situation by attacking the protestors and triggering a break down in law and order through their mismanagement and tinear understanding of how to handle a situation where a cop kills a member of a community.  And it just keeps going, it is a miracle nobody else has been killed yet or we do not have riots breaking out in other cities.

Where the fuck is the President in this?  It has been over a week.  It took hardly any time at all for Rand Freaking Paul to chime in and he is just some Senator from a state in the neighborhood.  Obama is such a failure I just do not get it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 18, 2014, 07:40:05 AM
I might get some hot NG firing on the crowd action now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on August 18, 2014, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 AM
However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on. 
I thought that I heard he was on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. Is that not correct?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 09:03:29 AM
I know he and his family are out of town, and the shooting investigation is with the FBI.
But whether or not admin leave is involved, who the hell knows with that department, it's mystifying the lack of information coming out.
But maybe it's better that way, because every time that doofus chief opens his mouth, police fail falls out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:12:04 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 18, 2014, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 AM
However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on. 
I thought that I heard he was on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. Is that not correct?

If so, the administrative leave part, it is just coming out now a week later.  Though that seems a little underwhelming considering the very serious nature of what occurred.  You put people getting their buddies out of traffic violations or stealing from the seized weed stash on administrative leave.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 18, 2014, 10:02:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:12:04 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 18, 2014, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 AM
However this is not even about that so much, though I notice the cop in question has not been suspended and there are no reports of an investigation going on. 
I thought that I heard he was on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation. Is that not correct?

If so, the administrative leave part, it is just coming out now a week later.  Though that seems a little underwhelming considering the very serious nature of what occurred.  You put people getting their buddies out of traffic violations or stealing from the seized weed stash on administrative leave.

Putting an officer on administative leave is a normal part of the SOP while a shooting investigation is ongoing. It is not a punishment, or any kind of statement about the suspected outcome of said investigation.

I do think it is a little farcical that these investigations are done by the same department or municipality that is involved - how often is a police shooting ever judged as anything but justified?

I would like to see some kind of independent review of police use of deadly force.

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 18, 2014, 10:09:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2014, 10:02:04 AM

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.

You could always vary that up with dropping a gun near the body, and saying "he was going for *his* gun". Or at least, so noir fiction has taught us.  ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 18, 2014, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2014, 10:02:04 AM
Putting an officer on administative leave is a normal part of the SOP while a shooting investigation is ongoing. It is not a punishment, or any kind of statement about the suspected outcome of said investigation.

I do think it is a little farcical that these investigations are done by the same department or municipality that is involved - how often is a police shooting ever judged as anything but justified?

I would like to see some kind of independent review of police use of deadly force.

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.

Skip posted an interesting link on Facebook where this was done in Wisconsin for exactly this reason.  Don't think any other states have implemented an external reviewing body yet, though I imagine this is going to push it further toward the top of several politicians' agendas.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:31:36 AM
Yeah, it's straight from the script.  It's up there with "used the force necessary to effect the arrest" to explain the broken arm.

He was a big 18 year old. 6'4", 300 lbs.  Saw a pick of the cop.  Skinny ass little dude.

I'd like to know more about the altercation, since I still think it's a bit fishy, and trying to wonder why the cop tried to engage somebody from his car.

Now I've never had to shoot somebody, but I've been in my share of drop-down, drag-out, hit-em-with-a-garbage-can-lid, wind-up-in-the-ER-together scraps...and 6'4" and 300 lbs can kill you if it's motivated enough.

Would like to know where the pepper foam was.  "Going for my gun" is sorta difficult with a triple-retention holster from the seated position in your vehicle.  The biggest threat to your gun is brandishing it too early and too close from a compromised position.

Then again, saw somebody get shot from below because he was choking out the officer from behind. The definition of "Fear for my life" gets pretty broad and ambiguous at that point.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on August 18, 2014, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:31:36 AM
Yeah, it's straight from the script.  It's up there with "used the force necessary to effect the arrest" to explain the broken arm.

He was a big 18 year old. 6'4", 300 lbs.  Saw a pick of the cop.  Skinny ass little dude.

I'd like to know more about the altercation, since I still think it's a bit fishy, and trying to wonder why the cop tried to engage somebody from his car.

Now I've never had to shoot somebody, but I've been in my share of drop-down, drag-out, hit-em-with-a-garbage-can-lid, wind-up-in-the-ER-together scraps...and 6'4" and 300 lbs can kill you if it's motivated enough.

Would like to know where the pepper foam was.  "Going for my gun" is sorta difficult with a triple-retention holster from the seated position in your vehicle.  The biggest threat to your gun is brandishing it too early and too close from a compromised position.

Then again, saw somebody get shot from below because he was choking out the officer from behind. The definition of "Fear for my life" gets pretty broad and ambiguous at that point.

The original shooting isn't the #1 issue of this anymore. While the Ferguson PD fails at basic crisis management. The St-Louis County did the situation no favor by mobilizing it's 2nd infantry battalion instead of deescalating the, well, escalation of violence.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:48:28 AM
That's why all these shitty little municipal agencies that rub up next to one another--50in one town, 24 in the next adjacent town, etc.-need to all get rolled into larger jurisdictions and made into larger agencies with the staff, experience and resources necessary to deal with this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: celedhring on August 18, 2014, 10:51:19 AM
A friend of mine that served in Irak was telling me the other day that they had stricter ROE regarding who can they point a gun at that the Ferguson police seemingly have.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:48:28 AM
That's why all these shitty little municipal agencies that rub up next to one another--50in one town, 24 in the next adjacent town, etc.-need to all get rolled into larger jurisdictions and made into larger agencies with the staff, experience and resources necessary to deal with this sort of thing.

Essentially the Sheriff's office does that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 01:43:31 PM
They're not doing it very well, but the DOJ, ACLU and the NAACP knew that.  The rest of the nation is figuring it out now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 18, 2014, 02:22:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 AM
Where the fuck is the President in this?  It has been over a week.  It took hardly any time at all for Rand Freaking Paul to chime in and he is just some Senator from a state in the neighborhood.  Obama is such a failure I just do not get it.

a senator running for presidency probably has more time to comment on these little events that pop up than a US president. i don't think some people will ever be satisfied with obama. riots over alleged police brutality are frequent. he talks about trayvon, people freak; he doesn't talk about some incident in ferguson, MO[/] and people freak. he doesn't attend a funeral, people are mad. etc.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
Obama will be speaking on the subject at 4pm EST.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 02:30:32 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 18, 2014, 02:22:40 PM
he doesn't talk about some incident in ferguson, MO[/] and people freak. he doesn't attend a funeral, people are mad. etc.

This is not just a replay of decades of past trauma and racial violence that has poisoned this nation for centuries but it also a reflection of a crisis brought on by federal policies.  He needs to show leadership here.  I hope whatever he plans to do now at 4 PM EST provides some direction to this.

And yeah being President carries certain burdens.  If he doesn't like pressure and people freaking he should have stayed a Senator.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on August 18, 2014, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 07:35:34 AMIt is only money, this is a full blown national disgrace and disaster unfolding that threatens the legitimacy of the cops everywhere.
...
  This is about the cops escalating the situation by attacking the protestors and triggering a break down in law and order through their mismanagement and tinear understanding of how to handle a situation where a cop kills a member of a community.  And it just keeps going, it is a miracle nobody else has been killed yet or we do not have riots breaking out in other cities.
Maybe. But isn't the national disgrace that this is an aspect of how policing is and, as importantly, is perceived to be for African-Americans. Isn't the shift that white America's noticed?

QuoteWhere the fuck is the President in this?  It has been over a week.  It took hardly any time at all for Rand Freaking Paul to chime in and he is just some Senator from a state in the neighborhood.  Obama is such a failure I just do not get it.
I think this chimes with Rand Paul's politics. But he's still working at increasing support for Republicans among the GOP (and I suspect his slightly libertarian version is the best ideological match). Again a reason I like Rand is that he didn't just retreat after that Howard embarrassment. On a number of issues (that disproportionately affect African-Americans) he's right, which is the key. For engagement to work you've got to show up regularly, not just on election years; have a genuine policy basis to talk about; and use the right language. He's lagging on the latter but that's it.

QuoteThat's why all these shitty little municipal agencies that rub up next to one another--50in one town, 24 in the next adjacent town, etc.-need to all get rolled into larger jurisdictions and made into larger agencies with the staff, experience and resources necessary to deal with this sort of thing.
I think this is true. It's true here too.

A police force is one of those things people get attached to though, like a local hospital or a regiment, even if they're no longer terribly efficient or able to cope.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 18, 2014, 06:05:39 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on August 18, 2014, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2014, 10:02:04 AM
Putting an officer on administative leave is a normal part of the SOP while a shooting investigation is ongoing. It is not a punishment, or any kind of statement about the suspected outcome of said investigation.

I do think it is a little farcical that these investigations are done by the same department or municipality that is involved - how often is a police shooting ever judged as anything but justified?

I would like to see some kind of independent review of police use of deadly force.

And it seems to me that "He was going for my gun!" is the standard, default, one size fits all reason to use to justify shooting some unarmed guy.

Skip posted an interesting link on Facebook where this was done in Wisconsin for exactly this reason.  Don't think any other states have implemented an external reviewing body yet, though I imagine this is going to push it further toward the top of several politicians' agendas.
Kinda like the IRS asking you to audit yourself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2014, 06:22:30 PM
Obama apparently sending nothing much of note.

As much as all of this is awful, I'm glad to see attention being given to this issue again. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:01:47 PM
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:06:08 PM

Getty photographer arrested #ferguson
http://instagram.com/p/r20Wfwssp8/ (http://instagram.com/p/r20Wfwssp8/)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 07:54:08 PM
Good.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:32:19 PM
QuoteThe City of Ferguson has hired a PR firm

If you call the City of Ferguson asking for a media representative, chances are your name will instead be sent to a small public relations firm called Common Ground PR.

After more than a week of unrest following Michael Brown's shooting death, the city is overwhelmed with the sheer crush of national and global media on the scene.

Enter Common Ground, a seven-person PR firm based in Chesterfield, Mo. that has been charged with "helping triage media queries," according to Denise Bentele, president and CEO of the firm.

"The city is only trying to be responsive to you guys," Bentele said. "This is a little city and they don't have public relations or media staff."

Bentele couldn't say how long the "short-term" contract with Ferguson will last, but judging by the fact that the city's doesn't have a functioning Web site at the moment, they may well need the extra help.

:lol: Some have also noted that in the midst of an enormous amount of racial strife, the PR firm hired by the city appears to be entirely white:  http://www.commongroundpr.com/meet-the-team.aspx (http://www.commongroundpr.com/meet-the-team.aspx)

1) First order of business by the white PR firm:  subcontract a minority-owned PR firm.  Or Quicy Jones.  Somebody.  Shit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:36:31 PM
Was reading the autopsy.  Cause of death: lead poisoning.
Apparently the 6th shot, at the apex of the skull, was the Tekken 3 finishing move.  Yeah, I'd say so.

Autopsy's one thing, shooting reconstruction is another.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:47:40 PM
The derspiess demographic speaks out:

QuoteNearly half of Americans say race is getting too much attention in the Ferguson coverage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog-live/liveblog/live-updates-chaos-in-ferguson/?id=6a8f3f7b-4c75-42bb-8ccb-d31bf15a2524

LOL I WONDER WHICH HALF
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:07:31 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:01:47 PM
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)

Good work Raz!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 08:47:40 PM
The derspiess demographic speaks out:

QuoteNearly half of Americans say race is getting too much attention in the Ferguson coverage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog-live/liveblog/live-updates-chaos-in-ferguson/?id=6a8f3f7b-4c75-42bb-8ccb-d31bf15a2524 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog-live/liveblog/live-updates-chaos-in-ferguson/?id=6a8f3f7b-4c75-42bb-8ccb-d31bf15a2524)

LOL I WONDER WHICH HALF

My liberal gay brother doesn't think it's about race.  Of course, he's a liberal gay stupid brother.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:07:31 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:01:47 PM
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)

Good work Raz!

I think they are attacking the Wainwright building.  I'll be down there tomorrow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2014, 04:24:35 PM
Maybe. But isn't the national disgrace that this is an aspect of how policing is and, as importantly, is perceived to be for African-Americans. Isn't the shift that white America's noticed?

I cannot speak for the great hive mind of white America but unless you are super isolated from the culture at large I have a hard time seeing somebody not know this.  This has been something talked about in our culture for decades, both as a source of black comedy and in earnest.  The shift may be that now it can be live streamed so white Europe (and everybody else) can notice now if they want to.  But I guess I fail to see how it really matters who is being victimized here, the actions of the cops are a disgrace either way.  It only makes it worse that it is part of a larger cultural disgrace.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 18, 2014, 10:28:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:07:31 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 18, 2014, 07:01:47 PM
Protesters march towards Gov Nixon's #StL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/StL?src=hash) office chanting "the Nat'l Guard has got to go"
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501473199935479809/photo/1)

Protesters aren't being let in, security told me they're not here on "official business" -
https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/StanfordKMOV/status/501474294258757633/photo/1)

Good work Raz!

I think they are attacking the Wainwright building.  I'll be down there tomorrow.

That's messed up, Adam's having a great year.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 18, 2014, 10:30:29 PM
That joke was a balk.  Raz, take your base.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2014, 11:23:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2014, 04:24:35 PM
Maybe. But isn't the national disgrace that this is an aspect of how policing is and, as importantly, is perceived to be for African-Americans. Isn't the shift that white America's noticed?

I cannot speak for the great hive mind of white America but unless you are super isolated from the culture at large I have a hard time seeing somebody not know this.  This has been something talked about in our culture for decades, both as a source of black comedy and in earnest.  The shift may be that now it can be live streamed so white Europe (and everybody else) can notice now if they want to.  But I guess I fail to see how it really matters who is being victimized here, the actions of the cops are a disgrace either way.  It only makes it worse that it is part of a larger cultural disgrace.

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 08:29:18 AM
As I said I cannot speak for the hive mind, probably the same people who explained how Rodney King deserved it.

Man remember the days when the cops only beat people?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2014, 11:23:44 PM

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 09:56:16 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2014, 11:23:44 PM

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.

I remember Rush Limbaugh ranting on how Obama was a black panther who was going to take vengeance on white people.  Obama.  The dude does not have a radical bone in his body.  It was just a total racist fantasy story about the threatening black dude.

Speaking of Obama that speech was total weak sauce.  He is pretty worthless as a leader. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 19, 2014, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 09:56:16 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2014, 11:23:44 PM

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.

I remember Rush Limbaugh ranting on how Obama was a black panther who was going to take vengeance on white people.  Obama.  The dude does not have a radical bone in his body.  It was just a total racist fantasy story about the threatening black dude.

Speaking of Obama that speech was total weak sauce.  He is pretty worthless as a leader.

I agree that Obama is a bit of a caretaker president, but I'm unsure as to what he ought to be saying in a case like this.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 10:19:32 AM
The guy's an Ivy League law grad who would be vacationing in Martha's Vinyard even if he wasn't President of the United States.

You've got more in common with the Dazzling Urbanites of Ferguson than he does.

Edit: Post was for Valmy, not Malthus the Privileged Jew  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 10:20:48 AM
I can't think of anything productive for him to say.  He could ask for calm, and at the same time ask the Russians to dissolve their nuclear arsenal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 19, 2014, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 09:56:16 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2014, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2014, 11:23:44 PM

I think I saw that polling on Republicans though that race was being discussed too much in relation to Ferguson.

The only time when Republicans don't think race is being discussed to much is when they are discussing how Obama hates white people.

I remember Rush Limbaugh ranting on how Obama was a black panther who was going to take vengeance on white people.  Obama.  The dude does not have a radical bone in his body.  It was just a total racist fantasy story about the threatening black dude.

Speaking of Obama that speech was total weak sauce.  He is pretty worthless as a leader.

I agree that Obama is a bit of a caretaker president, but I'm unsure as to what he ought to be saying in a case like this.

I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 11:19:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:08:34 AM
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

And not too off the mark. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 19, 2014, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:08:34 AM
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

Seems about right.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:27:39 AM
Well he did look ridiculous on that Harvard thing. Played his race card too quick and on a largely spurious incident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:08:34 AM
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

I guess that explains it.  The Republicans hate him so therefore he cannot do anything for fear it may be counter-productive?  Man obstruction really is a winning strategy.  However it is not like he is taking strong stands on none racially charged issues either.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:08:34 AM
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/18/6031197/obama-ferguson-race-speech

I guess that explains it.  The Republicans hate him so therefore he cannot do anything for fear it may be counter-productive?  Man obstruction really is a winning strategy.

:hmm:

I don't think that is what the article was saying. I think it was suggesting that Obama has a tendency to amp up racial situations rather than defusing them. Why should he take actions that'll do more harm than good?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 11:38:25 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 11:34:03 AM
I don't think that is what the article was saying. I think it was suggesting that Obama has a tendency to amp up racial situations rather than defusing them. Why should he take actions that'll do more harm than good?

I thought that is what I meant by 'counter-productive'.  And anyway the graph only showed 'Republicans versus Democrats' so that is why I went with the party angle there.  Most whites are not Republicans, though the opposite is true.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 19, 2014, 11:56:41 AM
Not from the Onion:

QuoteEgypt urges U.S. restraint over Missouri unrest

(Reuters) - Egypt on Tuesday urged U.S. authorities to exercise restraint in dealing with racially charged demonstrations in Ferguson, Missouri - echoing language Washington used to caution Egypt as it cracked down on Islamist protesters last year.

U.S. foes Iran and Syria also lambasted the United States, but while they are frequent critics of Washington, it is unusual for Egypt to criticize such a major donor. It was not immediately clear why Egypt would issue such a statement.

Ties between Washington and Cairo were strained after Egyptian security forces killed hundreds of Muslim Brotherhood supporters following the army's ousting of freely elected President Mohamed Mursi in July 2013.

The Egyptian Foreign Ministry's statement on the unrest in Ferguson read similarly to one issued by U.S. President Barack Obama's administration in July 2013, when the White House "urged security forces to exercise maximum restraint and caution" in dealing with demonstrations by Mursi supporters.

The ministry added it was "closely following the escalation of protests" in Ferguson, unleashed by the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white policeman on Aug. 9.

Human Rights Watch said in a report last week Egyptian security forces systematically used excessive force against Islamist protesters after Mursi was ousted. Egypt said the report was "characterized by negativity and bias".

In a second day of Twitter messages about the disturbances in Ferguson, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei criticized the United States as "egotistical and unreliable".

He also sought to link the unrest to Washington's support of Israel, sworn foe of Tehran.

"Brutal treatment of black people isn't indeed the only anti-human rights act by U.S. govt; look at US's green light to #Israel's crimes," he wrote on Monday, adding Washington was the world's "biggest violator" of human rights.

Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister for European and American Affairs Takht Ravanchi on Monday accused Washington of "racist behavior and oppression", the Fars News Agency said.

In Syria, another U.S. adversary, a bulletin from state news agency SANA accused police in Ferguson of "racist and oppressive practices".

Pro-government media in Turkey, where the authorities came under U.S. criticism for a heavy-handed clampdown on weeks of protests around Istanbul's Gezi Park last year, also took a swipe.

"You were sounding off when Gezi was happening ... You crook with double standards," wrote Ahmet Sagirli, a columnist in the Turkiye newspaper.


(Reporting by Maggie Fick in Cairo, Oliver Holmes in Beirut, Michelle Moghtader in Dubai, Selin Bucak in Istanbul; Editing by Alison Williams)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 12:05:04 PM
As I said now this gets live streamed around the world.  So here we go.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 12:05:04 PM
As I said now this gets live streamed around the world.  So here we go.

Who cares?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 12:51:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 12:05:04 PM
As I said now this gets live streamed around the world.  So here we go.

Who cares?

People on message boards who talk to foreigners a lot?  I have already come into contact with Euros who seem to think that in Texas we shoot all foreigners on sight so probably just more of that.  Oh and smug Egyptians.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 01:17:44 PM
Do you think that you can cure people of ignorance on message boards?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 19, 2014, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 01:17:44 PM
Do you think that you can cure people of ignorance on message boards?

I used to. Then I discovered that infecting them with ignorance was easier, and more fun.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 01:33:33 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 01:17:44 PM
Do you think that you can cure people of ignorance on message boards?

Hey you asked who might care.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 01:56:23 PM
fuck all foreigners.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: merithyn on August 19, 2014, 02:16:23 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 01:56:23 PM
fuck all foreigners.

Funny. That's what the French say! :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 19, 2014, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 01:56:23 PM
fuck all foreigners.

I don't have the time.  :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 02:18:25 PM
Quote from: frunk on August 19, 2014, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 01:56:23 PM
fuck all foreigners.

I don't have the time.  :(

I quit at one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on August 19, 2014, 02:35:13 PM

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Ferguson, MO and Police Militarization (HBO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:50:02 PM
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/BREAKING-Officer-involved-shooting-in-St-Louis-271876701.html

QuoteA 23-year-old man was shot and killed after showing a knife to an officer in North St. Louis, according to Chief Sam Dotson.

Dotson confirmed that there was a fatal officer-involved shooting around 12:30 p.m. at McLaran Avenue and Riverview Drive in North St. Louis. 

According to Dotson, the suspect stole two energy drinks from the Six Stars Market in the 8700 block of Riverview. Dotson said after the suspect walked out of the store with the drinks, he went back inside the store and grabbed a pastry. Dotson said the store owner followed the suspect out of the store and police were dispatched to the area.

According to police, the suspect pulled out a knife and was acting erratically when officers arrived. Dotson told reporters the suspect told responding officers to "shoot me now, kill me now."   Dotson said officers asked the suspect to drop the knife, which he was holding in an overhead grip, and the suspect refused to do.



When the suspect approached the officers carrying a knife, officers fired shots striking the suspect. The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene of the shooting.

When asked about the validity of the shooting, Dotson said officers "have a right to defend yourself."

Mayor Francis Slay tweeted that there will be a "complete and transparent" investigation into the shooting.  He pledged that St. Louis "will know everything I know."

A large, peaceful crowd quickly came to the scene of the shooting.  Some said police had other options, and did not have use lethal force.

"It's in their best interest, with Ferguson and everything going on, to use a taser," said Tommy Lee, a resident of the area. 

"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2014, 07:53:23 PM
Well wasn't he moving to attack them with a deadly weapon?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 19, 2014, 07:54:41 PM
He was kinda askin for it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 19, 2014, 07:54:45 PM
Hey Val, cops are taught to shoot to kill when they fire their weapon. There is none of that shoot to wound bullcrap.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2014, 07:53:23 PM
Well wasn't he moving to attack them with a deadly weapon?

Well fortunately they have video this time so hopefully we will have a better idea of how justified it was but man....it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

QuoteHe was kinda askin for it.

Quite literally.

QuoteHey Val, cops are taught to shoot to kill when they fire their weapon. There is none of that shoot to wound bullcrap.

Well that is just fucking awesome.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 19, 2014, 08:30:07 PM
Ugh.  This whole thing just took a weird twist: the owner's now saying nobody from his store reported a shoplifting and released surveillance video from BEFORE the shove showing Michael Brown paying for cigars while leaving more on the counter.

If true, I hope the PD gets slammed right after the officer is successfully prosecuted.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 08:47:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 PM
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2014, 09:00:27 PM
Let that be a lesson for any foreigners thinking about visiting the US: in your culture it may be accepted to brandish a knife and wave it around in a gendarme's face as a show of braggadacio and rejection of authority, but in the US it's generally frowned upon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 19, 2014, 10:19:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:50:02 PM
Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.
Oh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2014, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on August 19, 2014, 08:30:07 PM
Ugh.  This whole thing just took a weird twist: the owner's now saying nobody from his store reported a shoplifting and released surveillance video from BEFORE the shove showing Michael Brown paying for cigars while leaving more on the counter.

If true, I hope the PD gets slammed right after the officer is successfully prosecuted.
Link?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on August 20, 2014, 02:01:20 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2014, 10:19:38 PMOh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.

well, yeah, valmy appears to be getting increasingly agitated past the point of reasonableness
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 08:20:44 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on August 19, 2014, 08:30:07 PM
Ugh.  This whole thing just took a weird twist: the owner's now saying nobody from his store reported a shoplifting and released surveillance video from BEFORE the shove showing Michael Brown paying for cigars while leaving more on the counter.

If true, I hope the PD gets slammed right after the officer is successfully prosecuted.

The shooting had nothing to do with whether or not he shoplifted though.  The police had no idea so I don't think it implicates the officer in question any.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 20, 2014, 02:01:20 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2014, 10:19:38 PMOh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.

well, yeah, valmy appears to be getting increasingly agitated past the point of reasonableness

Asking questions that make you uncomfortable is not an indication that I am agitated past the point of reasonableness. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 20, 2014, 08:24:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on August 20, 2014, 02:01:20 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2014, 10:19:38 PMOh, please, this is getting idiotic.  A knife is kinda a deadly weapon, and a charging guy with a knife is a deadly threat.

well, yeah, valmy appears to be getting increasingly agitated past the point of reasonableness

Asking questions that make you uncomfortable is not an indication that I am agitated past the point of reasonableness. 

At the same time, it did appear to me that you were taking issue with what didn't seem like an unreasonable action on the apart of officers who had someone coming at them with a knife drawn.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2014, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 08:47:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 PM
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.
How reliable is a tazer?  Couldn't they have tazed the guy?  I know there must be a limitation to tazers that I am unaware of, because one would think that every cop would have one were they reliable.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 08:38:10 AM
Tazers seem pretty reliable from what I've seen, provided officers have them.  Not all agencies do.  And if the gendarmes jump into the phone booth to change into their Waffen-SS outfits, they may not have them available.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: PDH on August 20, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
Tazers aren't as cool as an APC.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 08:47:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 PM
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.

Well the guy seems to be mentally unstable and seems like he was going for suicide-by-cop.  It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:22:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2014, 08:24:10 AM
At the same time, it did appear to me that you were taking issue with what didn't seem like an unreasonable action on the apart of officers who had someone coming at them with a knife drawn.

My issue was with their training.  Just like my issues with their equipment.  It may indeed be the case that in that situation any police department around the world would be expected to gun that guy down, after all that was what he wanted the cops to do, but I was questioning if there really was no non-lethal way to deal with it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:22:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

I think maintenance of public order should be a police concern.  Why is it upsetting that it would be?  Lives and property are at stake.  Killing people in a community is a last resort.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:28:27 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:22:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

I think maintenance of public order should be a police concern.  Why is it upsetting that it would be?  Lives and property are at stake.  Killing people in a community is a last resort.
That's the thing, it should always be a last resort, and thus it shouldn't be conditional on the riot situation in general.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on August 20, 2014, 09:30:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:50:02 PM
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/BREAKING-Officer-involved-shooting-in-St-Louis-271876701.html

QuoteA 23-year-old man was shot and killed after showing a knife to an officer in North St. Louis, according to Chief Sam Dotson.

Dotson confirmed that there was a fatal officer-involved shooting around 12:30 p.m. at McLaran Avenue and Riverview Drive in North St. Louis. 

According to Dotson, the suspect stole two energy drinks from the Six Stars Market in the 8700 block of Riverview. Dotson said after the suspect walked out of the store with the drinks, he went back inside the store and grabbed a pastry. Dotson said the store owner followed the suspect out of the store and police were dispatched to the area.

According to police, the suspect pulled out a knife and was acting erratically when officers arrived. Dotson told reporters the suspect told responding officers to "shoot me now, kill me now."   Dotson said officers asked the suspect to drop the knife, which he was holding in an overhead grip, and the suspect refused to do.



When the suspect approached the officers carrying a knife, officers fired shots striking the suspect. The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene of the shooting.

When asked about the validity of the shooting, Dotson said officers "have a right to defend yourself."

Mayor Francis Slay tweeted that there will be a "complete and transparent" investigation into the shooting.  He pledged that St. Louis "will know everything I know."

A large, peaceful crowd quickly came to the scene of the shooting.  Some said police had other options, and did not have use lethal force.

"It's in their best interest, with Ferguson and everything going on, to use a taser," said Tommy Lee, a resident of the area. 

"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.

Valmy - use of a Taser would be appropriate, if the officer in question had a taser.

It's tough to say since you're only going by a few words in a newspaper article, but it sounds as if the use of deadly force may have been justified here.  A knife is a deadly weapon.  Police are trained that a person with a knife can approach and strike you very quickly.  Standard procedure would be for police to maintain their distance and try and talk this guy down, but if he gets too close and refuses demands to drop the knife they can and should use deadly force.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:34:02 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:28:27 AM
That's the thing, it should always be a last resort, and thus it shouldn't be conditional on the riot situation in general.

Indeed.  But the whole controversy is if the police are becoming militarized and shooting a bit too liberally (and maybe are all racists blah blah) is it not? 

Anyway fortunately in this case it is on tape, as it should be, so the situation can be reviewed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on August 20, 2014, 10:41:58 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Derp. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2014, 12:49:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 08:38:10 AM
Tazers seem pretty reliable from what I've seen, provided officers have them.  Not all agencies do.  And if the gendarmes jump into the phone booth to change into their Waffen-SS outfits, they may not have them available.

One thing the Cincy PD learned the hard way is you don't tase a robbery suspect while he's climbing over top of a fence :pinch:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 20, 2014, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Ah fuck that was funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on August 20, 2014, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Every once in a while, I read an article about some bonehead who goads his buddy into "just take a stab, man, I'm wearing my bulletproof vest ...".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2014, 02:20:15 PM
I hadn't paid attention to this until today because we were doing our Cabin Weekend mini-vacation down in Tennessee.  But apparently the developments caused my lefty co-worker of color (who insists on talking politics in the office) to change his tune a bit.  He's no longer calling the shooting an "execution".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 20, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
I drove through there yesterday.  You'd think form the news that there is this enormous ghetto in flames.  The protests are on like three blocks.  Folks there seemed to be just normal folks, going about their business.  I'm beginning to think everything would have been better if nobody outside the community had come in at all and it was just a local issue.  Nobody gave a shit that some crazy guy got shot in St. Louis city yesterday.  Most of the residents moved out of the city to get away from shit like that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 20, 2014, 06:09:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 20, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
I drove through there yesterday.  You'd think form the news that there is this enormous ghetto in flames.  The protests are on like three blocks.  Folks there seemed to be just normal folks, going about their business.  I'm beginning to think everything would have been better if nobody outside the community had come in at all and it was just a local issue.  Nobody gave a shit that some crazy guy got shot in St. Louis city yesterday.  Most of the residents moved out of the city to get away from shit like that.

Hell, that Jake Tapper wuss was comparing it to Bagram in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 20, 2014, 07:14:26 PM
He was talking about the milspec gear.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 20, 2014, 07:15:23 PM
He's still a wuss.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2014, 09:12:39 PM
Heard today the officer was pretty beat up after this.  Had to do xrays see if his skull was fractured.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 21, 2014, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

But it can puncture one's face/femoral artery, etc.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2014, 09:25:37 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 21, 2014, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

But it can puncture one's face/femoral artery, etc.

OK.... :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 21, 2014, 09:37:14 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F11JjjqPNDtu396%2Fgiphy.gif&hash=de9d2e8d14efec4ac050a845506ff9d6b8be6350)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on August 21, 2014, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2014, 09:25:37 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 21, 2014, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

But it can puncture one's face/femoral artery, etc.

OK.... :mellow:

I was decrying the implication from the original quote that all attacks on officers go for the vest.  <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2014, 10:36:01 PM
I've hard that in prisons guards wear special gear that is more resistant to knives and such.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Siege on August 22, 2014, 03:23:16 AM
Dude, a knife is a fucking toy in the hands of an untrained wanna-be knifer.


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 22, 2014, 06:34:43 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 22, 2014, 03:23:16 AM
Dude, a knife is a fucking toy in the hands of an untrained wanna-be knifer.



And that's how Siege won the respect of the guys in the Octagon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 22, 2014, 07:20:31 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 22, 2014, 06:34:43 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 22, 2014, 03:23:16 AM
Dude, a knife is a fucking toy in the hands of an untrained wanna-be knifer.



And that's how Siege won the respect of the guys in the Octagon.
:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 22, 2014, 11:07:00 AM
An assault rifle and body armor puts you at an immediate disadvantage?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2014, 11:08:54 AM
http://rt.com/politics/182116-russian-commission-ferguson-osce/

QuoteSenior MP calls for intl commission to assess US domestic crisis in Ferguson

Deputy State Duma speaker Sergey Neverov has called for various international organizations to create a joint group to assess the US authorities' handling of the ongoing protest in the town of Ferguson.

Neverov, who also chairs the majority United Russia caucus in the Lower House, has told reporters that the international community must not remain indifferent to the crisis situation in the United States – the country that presents itself as a model for democracy. "The events in Missouri have demonstrated that the United States have serious problems based on racial discrimination," Neverov noted in a comment to the Russian daily Izvestia.

The politician said that United Russia wanted to set up a special commission manned with representatives of the UN, PACE and other international groups that would make contact with participants of the events in Ferguson, Missouri, and investigate the lawfulness of the actions of US authorities and law enforcers.

Neverov added that the chairman of the Lower House committee for international relations MP Aleksei Pushkov (United Russia) could head the Russian part of the international commission.

In mid-August, Pushkov denounced the use of tear gas and rubber bullets in Ferguson as "a sign of dictatorship and an excessive use of force" by posting a message on his Twitter.

Izvestia quoted a source in the United Russia party saying they wanted the Russian part of the commission to be manned by MPs, who now participate in the Russian delegation in the PACE.

On Thursday a member of the Presidential Council for Human Rights suggested sending a peacekeeping mission of rights activists to Ferguson in order to stop the violence. Igor Borison told the ITAR-TASS news agency that the measure would prevent "a full scale genocide against its own population" in the United States.

Earlier this week, the Russian Foreign Ministry's envoy for Human Rights, Konstantin Dolgov, said that the unrest in Ferguson was a vivid demonstration of the extreme tensions that exist in modern American society. Dolgov called the curfew, the violent dispersing of rallies and the deployment of the National Guard to the area "a repetition of the race cataclysms" that have shaken the United States in the past.

"While demanding that other countries guarantee the freedom of speech and stop suppressing anti-government protests, at home the US authorities never show any leniency towards those who actively express their discontent with inequality, de-facto discrimination, and the position of second class citizens. As we have all seen, reporters who perform their professional duty also get their share of ill treatment," read the comment posted on the ministry's website.

Tensions remain in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson where the Missouri governor announced on Monday that he had ordered National Guard troops to be deployed to protect the area from "deliberate, coordinated and intensifying violent attacks on lives and property." The clashes resumed during the week as police used tear gas to disperse protesters. Law enforcers also used live ammunition against the crowd.

The initial protests were prompted by the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old black man who was shot and killed by white police officer, Darren Wilson, on August 9.

:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 22, 2014, 11:27:53 AM
Russians are welcome to send any delegates to Ferguson they want.  I have some other neighborhoods I could suggest as well.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 22, 2014, 04:25:37 PM
They should start with investigating official abuse of power in Syria.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 02:45:06 AM
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 24, 2014, 07:18:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 02:45:06 AM
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.

Did it take this long for that news to float over there by message bottle?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 07:50:54 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 24, 2014, 07:18:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 02:45:06 AM
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.

Did it take this long for that news to float over there by message bottle?

Well, I just read it in the Economist. I didn't read it all in one sitting and the American section is later on. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 27, 2014, 02:34:09 AM
The Valmyites strike back

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-killing-of-kajieme-powell/378899/

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051431/did-the-st-louis-police-have-to-shoot-kajieme-powell/in/5757650
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 06:15:15 AM
The only thing I don't get about that shooting is that the officers apparently had tasers.  Now, it's a difficult call for one officer to be placed in that situation, but there were two:  your partner is covering you with his firearm if you attempt to use the taser and it fails, or the individual suddenly charges.

One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

QuoteBut all Powell had was a steak knife. If the police had been in their car, with the windows rolled up, he could have done little to hurt them.

Lulz.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:05:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 06:15:15 AM
One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

It seems to me like much of the time the question is not "Must I shoot this person?" but rather "Can I shoot this person?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 27, 2014, 08:30:31 AM
I really liked this bit that was quoted in the Atlantic article (admittedly from some blog). Given that knives are often used in Britain, but seldom are the perpetrators shot dead there, it seems that American police are way too trigger happy.

Quote
    I suspect the protocol in Britain would be to park at a relatively distance, order civilians to get back, call for back-up and specialist assistance, while monitoring to ensure that Mr. Powell poses no threat to himself or anybody else. What caused the situation to escalate to the point that the police felt so threatened that they needed to open fire in a mentally ill man carrying a knife at his side was the arrival of the police. There is a serious problem in how US police perceive and deal with "threats." Mentally-ill people, even ones with knives, are primarily a threat to themselves.
     
    I know that American police face different risks than British ones, and that gun violence is higher... so let's park the gun issue and look at the threat from knives on its own. In 2013 armed police were deployed in the UK about 12,000 times. They fired 3 shots and killed nobody. I don't know how many of those incidents involved knives, but I suspect it was more than one. The St. Louis P.D. bested that in 15 seconds when they fired 9 bullets into Mr. Powell. American gun enthusiasts and police officers always say "you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to neutralize the threat." So do British police, and they successfully neutralize the threat with both fewer shots fired and fewer dead citizens. "But the British armed police are top marksmen!" is usually another reply.
     
    Well... that's an argument for better firearms training of US officers instead of an excuse for their poor accuracy...
     
    The most disturbing aspect of this for me is that the police fired several bullets into Kajieme Powell's body while he lay wounded on the ground, and yet they apparently wanted this video released as it was "exculpatory." There exists a very deep chasm between what the Police view as justified and what, I think, most reasonable citizens would.  In a democratic country where the rule of law exists in such a difference of opinion the difference must always be settled on the side of the people, who are sovereign. In the United States it seems to be settled far too frequently, to put it at its lowest, on the side of the Police.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:37:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2014, 02:45:06 AM
Apparently the shop which was allegedly robbed by the victim has been ransacked by looters. Nice way to prove you are a peaceful protest.

The owners of the shop, out of fear, were adamant that they did not call the cops when they were robbed.  An eyewitness apparently called it in, but the shop owners still paid for it anyway.  They'll probably pay for it again.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:39:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:05:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 06:15:15 AM
One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

It seems to me like much of the time the question is not "Must I shoot this person?" but rather "Can I shoot this person?"

Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 08:43:13 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:39:31 AM
Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"

We used to call that "training".  But nice try.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:45:28 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 08:43:13 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:39:31 AM
Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"

We used to call that "training".  But nice try.

Go on.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 08:54:37 AM
Eat me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:54:50 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 08:39:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:05:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 27, 2014, 06:15:15 AM
One would think an agency as large as St. Louis County knows how to deal with so many of the mentally ill individuals they encounter in calls for service, but perhaps they don't.  There's a distinct erasure of the concept of the continuum of force going on in law enforcement today.

It seems to me like much of the time the question is not "Must I shoot this person?" but rather "Can I shoot this person?"

Or maybe "what's the best way to resolve this situation without me getting stabbed?"

I don't buy it.

I don't buy the argument that the cops really do need to shoot all these people in order to protect themselves.

It is right up there with the "If it saves one child..." type arguments to justify, well, almost anything.

Is there a rampant problem with police officers being stabbed all the time, such that it is reasonable to shoot people to remove even the smallest threat of it happening?

Statistics show that being a police officer is a pretty safe job overall.

I don't accept the claim, on face value, that policing is so dangerous that using deadly force is reasonable to reduce the chances that they are injured by some very small amount. If the chances of some mentally deranged individual successfully injuring someone with a knife is so high that it is reasonable to shoot him before he actually tries to injure anyone, then I suspect we would see a lot more of those injuries.

Now, if the guy is actually making an attempt, then fine. If the guy is threatening someone else in a credible manner, fine.

If he is just waving a knife around and babbling, then I guess that is a "threat", and meets the strict criteria of a justified use of deadly force, but pretty much completely misses the actual part where we might expect officers to use judgement and discretion, rather than simply noting "Yep, he has done something that meets the minimal definition to justify me blowing him away, so Yeah! I get to shoot him 9 times".

Or, like I said, there is a difference between "Can I shoot him?" and "Must I shoot him?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2014, 08:54:50 AM
I don't buy it.

I don't buy the argument that the cops really do need to shoot all these people in order to protect themselves.

It is right up there with the "If it saves one child..." type arguments to justify, well, almost anything.

Is there a rampant problem with police officers being stabbed all the time, such that it is reasonable to shoot people to remove even the smallest threat of it happening?

Statistics show that being a police officer is a pretty safe job overall.

I'm pretty sure that varies widely depending on location.

QuoteI don't accept the claim, on face value, that policing is so dangerous that using deadly force is reasonable to reduce the chances that they are injured by some very small amount. If the chances of some mentally deranged individual successfully injuring someone with a knife is so high that it is reasonable to shoot him before he actually tries to injure anyone, then I suspect we would see a lot more of those injuries.

Now, if the guy is actually making an attempt, then fine. If the guy is threatening someone else in a credible manner, fine.

If he is just waving a knife around and babbling, then I guess that is a "threat", and meets the strict criteria of a justified use of deadly force, but pretty much completely misses the actual part where we might expect officers to use judgement and discretion, rather than simply noting "Yep, he has done something that meets the minimal definition to justify me blowing him away, so Yeah! I get to shoot him 9 times".

Or, like I said, there is a difference between "Can I shoot him?" and "Must I shoot him?"

In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

Now I'm okay with using this event as a reasonable discussion as to what possible non-lethal options a cop has in this type of scenario as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 27, 2014, 09:11:58 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

As long as we stay away from what certainly is reality a non negligible portion of time?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 27, 2014, 09:15:06 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:17:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 27, 2014, 09:11:58 AM
As long as we stay away from what certainly is reality a non negligible portion of time?

Bean pie, my brotha?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 27, 2014, 09:22:54 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2014, 09:15:06 AM
I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

But you are watching with the perspective of someone who knows the dude gets shot by the cops, and looking for ways that could have been prevented.

Presumably the cops confronted the guy because crazy people brandishing knives in public places are prone to stab people. If they kept a significant distance, and instead of what happened the guy went after a bystander, and the police were not able to intervene because they were too far away (or worse, shot and missed, hitting another bystander), they would be getting criticized for being too standoffish.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 27, 2014, 09:28:10 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2014, 09:15:06 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

Cause they were called in to stop the guy?  The man was a danger to the public, which is why the police were dispatched to begin with.  They can't realistically do that from inside the car or across the street.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2014, 02:27:19 AM
Wasn't sure where to put it, so I put it into this by now generic "Cops shoot people" thread.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/27/showbiz/cops-crew-member-shot-killed/

Quote'Cops' crew member killed in police shooting

(CNN) -- A crew member working on a taping of "Cops" was inadvertently shot and killed by a police officer during a robbery in Omaha, Nebraska, local officials said Wednesday.

Bryce Dion, an audio technician, is believed to be the first member of the "Cops" production staff killed in the 25-year history of the television show.

The production company behind "Cops," Langley Productions, said in a statement that it was "deeply saddened and shocked by this tragedy and our main concern is helping his family in any way we can."

Dion, 38, had been in Omaha all summer, helping with the production of future "Cops" episodes. The production company described him as a "long term member of the 'Cops' team and a very talented and dedicated person." His resume lists credits on "Cops" dating back to 2009.

Todd Schmaderer, the Omaha police chief, confirmed at a Wednesday afternoon news conference that a bullet fired by an officer struck Dion during a shootout with the robbery suspect, Cortez Washington, who was also killed.

Schmaderer described Dion as a friend to the officers that he'd been embedded with.

"This is as if we lost one of our own," Schmaderer said. "That is the grieving process we're going through right now."

Dion and a cameraman were traveling with police officers who responded to a robbery inside a Wendy's restaurant on Tuesday night. Schmaderer said the suspect, Washington, fired two shots at the responding officers, who responded with a barrage of gunfire.

It was later discovered that Washington had a pellet gun that fired plastic bullets.

As Washington tried to exit the Wendy's, he passed through a vestibule where Dion was positioned. The "Cops" cameraman was crouched down in another part of the restaurant.

After being struck by a single gunshot, Dion "collapsed just inside the east doorway," according to the police chief.

Washington collapsed outside.

Now, as an investigation ensues, the cameraman's footage has become evidence.

"Based on our viewing of the footage, the officers had no choice other than to respond (the way) they did," Schmaderer said, anticipating questions about why so many shots were fired.

When asked at the press conference if the officers could have been "showing off for the cameras," Schmaderer called that "absolutely ridiculous."

"This was a very harrowing situation," he said.

Asked whether "Cops" would stop production in Omaha, the police chief said, "We haven't gotten that far." The investigation is ongoing, he said, and is relying in part on the "Cops" team's footage.

"Mr. Dion played the ultimate price for his service -- to provide the footage of the real-life dangers that law enforcement officers face on a daily basis to television viewers throughout the world," Schmaderer said.

The crew was reportedly scheduled to wrap up production in the coming days.

"I've seen six or seven of the shows that can be aired, and it just shows amazing professionalism," Schmaderer said.

"Cops," often called one of the original reality shows, was televised by the Fox network for 24 years. Last year it shifted over to the cable channel Spike.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 07:25:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 27, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

This would be a valid argument if the policeman was immobilized for some reason (such as defending someone else who couldn't move), but, in this case, the mere "he got close" argument fails because the cop LET him get close.  Had the cops backed up as the knife-wielder advanced (which it looks to me like they could do without a problem), then the "he got close' trigger isn't pulled and neither are the pistol triggers.

I have big problems with cops dropping citizens as a matter of choice.

QuoteNow I'm okay with using this event as a reasonable discussion as to what possible non-lethal options a cop has in this type of scenario as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

I am sure we are all grateful for your permission.  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 08:37:11 AM
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 28, 2014, 09:01:53 AM
STAND MAH GROUND
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 08:37:11 AM
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 28, 2014, 10:23:56 AM
3. Like a Tootsie Roll pop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 08:37:11 AM
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:31:31 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 08:37:11 AM
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

I used the Google Gibberish-English translation feature, and this still came out gibberish.  Care to re-phrase this in just plain English?  What are you deferring (and why?); how many steps is "not much?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 10:33:49 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 08:37:11 AM
How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

Exactly the kind of thinking that results in cops making decisions based on "Can I shoot this person" rather than "Must I shoot this person".

I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 10:33:49 AM
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

Those don't last long.  Unfortunately they usually get their 1 before then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 12:17:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 10:33:49 AM
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

You know me so well.  It's like you're in my mind & stuff.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 12:17:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 10:33:49 AM
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

You know me so well.  It's like you're in my mind & stuff.

You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 12:17:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 10:33:49 AM
I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".

You know me so well.  It's like you're in my mind & stuff.

Maybe it was when you applied for your concealed weapon permit, under "Reason" you wrote "Just because" in crayon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 12:36:28 PM
Maybe it was when you applied for your concealed weapon permit, under "Reason" you wrote "Just because" in crayon.

I don't have a CCW permit.  But in Ohio you don't have to name a reason.  Shall Issue FTW
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on August 28, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:54:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 28, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

:)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 28, 2014, 01:57:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 28, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

A fellow Perl user! :w00t: :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 28, 2014, 02:06:48 PM
++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>-.+<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<>>>>>>.<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>-.+<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-.+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 28, 2014, 02:08:10 PM
Rolling out Brainfuck is cheating. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 02:47:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 28, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

I'm with speiss here.  Having the police run away from the guy with the knife doesn't solve the issue that they were called in to deal with: A man was menacing people with a knife.  If they had tazers perhaps they should have used those, but the situation was unlikely to be solved without violence.  It was essentially a suicide by cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on August 28, 2014, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 28, 2014, 02:08:10 PM
Rolling out Brainfuck is cheating. :P

Fine.

The Infamous Hello World Program.

Romeo, a young man with a remarkable patience.
Juliet, a likewise young woman of remarkable grace.
Ophelia, a remarkable woman much in dispute with Hamlet.
Hamlet, the flatterer of Andersen Insulting A/S.


                    Act I: Hamlet's insults and flattery.

                    Scene I: The insulting of Romeo.

[Enter Hamlet and Romeo]

Hamlet:
You lying stupid fatherless big smelly half-witted coward!
You are as stupid as the difference between a handsome rich brave
hero and thyself! Speak your mind!

You are as brave as the sum of your fat little stuffed misused dusty
old rotten codpiece and a beautiful fair warm peaceful sunny summer's
day. You are as healthy as the difference between the sum of the
sweetest reddest rose and my father and yourself! Speak your mind!

You are as cowardly as the sum of yourself and the difference
between a big mighty proud kingdom and a horse. Speak your mind.

Speak your mind!

[Exit Romeo]

                    Scene II: The praising of Juliet.

[Enter Juliet]

Hamlet:
Thou art as sweet as the sum of the sum of Romeo and his horse and his
black cat! Speak thy mind!

[Exit Juliet]

                    Scene III: The praising of Ophelia.

[Enter Ophelia]

Hamlet:
Thou art as lovely as the product of a large rural town and my amazing
bottomless embroidered purse. Speak thy mind!

Thou art as loving as the product of the bluest clearest sweetest sky
and the sum of a squirrel and a white horse. Thou art as beautiful as
the difference between Juliet and thyself. Speak thy mind!

[Exeunt Ophelia and Hamlet]


                    Act II: Behind Hamlet's back.

                    Scene I: Romeo and Juliet's conversation.

[Enter Romeo and Juliet]

Romeo:
Speak your mind. You are as worried as the sum of yourself and the
difference between my small smooth hamster and my nose. Speak your
mind!

Juliet:
Speak YOUR mind! You are as bad as Hamlet! You are as small as the
difference between the square of the difference between my little pony
and your big hairy hound and the cube of your sorry little
codpiece. Speak your mind!

[Exit Romeo]

                    Scene II: Juliet and Ophelia's conversation.

[Enter Ophelia]

Juliet:
Thou art as good as the quotient between Romeo and the sum of a small
furry animal and a leech. Speak your mind!

Ophelia:
Thou art as disgusting as the quotient between Romeo and twice the
difference between a mistletoe and an oozing infected blister! Speak
your mind!

[Exeunt]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 03:03:31 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 02:47:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 28, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2014, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
You aren't exactly difficult to figure out.

"He was walking towards me with the knife, so I shot him...did I move away? No, of course not. Why would I do that?"

Yeah, I'm sure your made-up psychological profile of me is easy to figure out since you're the one who came up with it.
To be fair, you're not exactly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I've written 10 line programs that have been harder to decipher than your mind.

I'm with speiss here.  Having the police run away from the guy with the knife doesn't solve the issue that they were called in to deal with: A man was menacing people with a knife.  If they had tazers perhaps they should have used those, but the situation was unlikely to be solved without violence.  It was essentially a suicide by cop.

Who said anything about running away?

This is in response to the claim that the officers had to kill him because he got close to them.

Well, it was really more like they got close to him - they could have simply backed away from him while trying to talk him down - they don't have to "run away".

He can't move towards both of them at the same time.

The point is there are options here other than just shoot the guy. Shooting him should be the last option. Yes, if he forces them into that (and he has the power to do so), then it is on him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
If they are backing up, they are essentially running away.  It also increases the danger since the police are walking in a direction they aren't facing.  Since both officers were standing next to each other the guy with the knife could move towards both at the same time.  Besides being dangerous, backing up only delays thing since the man with the knife was approaching the officers demanding they shoot him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 03:35:24 PM
Backing up is backing up.  Running away is running away.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 03:35:24 PM
Backing up is backing up.  Running away is running away.

Exactly.  Shooting someone should be the last resort, not the first.  I am fairly confident that the perp, if he really wanted to get shot, could and would have forced the cops to shoot him, but the answer to the "shoot/don't shoot" question should not always be "shoot."  There was time here to try to talk to the guy, but the cops didn't go that route.  I won't say that they were wrong, but I will say that they appeared to me to be wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 05:49:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 03:35:24 PM
Backing up is backing up.  Running away is running away.

Exactly.  Shooting someone should be the last resort, not the first.  I am fairly confident that the perp, if he really wanted to get shot, could and would have forced the cops to shoot him, but the answer to the "shoot/don't shoot" question should not always be "shoot."  There was time here to try to talk to the guy, but the cops didn't go that route.  I won't say that they were wrong, but I will say that they appeared to me to be wrong.

Do you ever get tired of the absurdity of only responding to me through a third person?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 06:04:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
If they are backing up, they are essentially running away.

That is farscicle. No they are not, they are backing up. I don't even know how to respond to something that bizarre.

Quote
  It also increases the danger since the police are walking in a direction they aren't facing.

Oh noes, the danger is increased! There could be a bear behind them, or perhaps a zombie!

Your right, rather than walk backwards, shooting someone is the only option.
Quote
  Since both officers were standing next to each other the guy with the knife could move towards both at the same time.

So maybe they could move away from each other, while backing up and checking their six for bears or gremlins?

Quote
Besides being dangerous, backing up only delays thing since the man with the knife was approaching the officers demanding they shoot him.

Well, we would not want to delay fulfilling his wish, now would we?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 06:12:25 PM
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 06:12:25 PM
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.

There are no "exact numbers". It depends on the circumstances, obviously. If taking 100 steps backs will result in them avoiding shooting someone, then they should take 100. If taking 1 step back results in them being a position where they have no choice but to use deadly force, then the answer is zero steps.

I trust police officers to know when they can move around safely and when they cannot. Certainly if the person in question has them pinned against something that they cannot maneuver any longer, then obviously that enters into their decision to use deadly force. It should also enter into their decision about how to approach any situation, of course.

You just don't get it - it isn't a matter of "How far should they 'have to' back up". They should back up however far is necessary. And it isn't about what they "have to" do before they can unload on someone - that is exactly the attitude I am talking about. They question is not "Can we shoot him" the question should be "Must we shoot him".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2014, 06:21:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 28, 2014, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 06:12:25 PM
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

I would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.

There are no "exact numbers". It depends on the circumstances, obviously. If taking 100 steps backs will result in them avoiding shooting someone, then they should take 100. If taking 1 step back results in them being a position where they have no choice but to use deadly force, then the answer is zero steps.

I trust police officers to know when they can move around safely and when they cannot. Certainly if the person in question has them pinned against something that they cannot maneuver any longer, then obviously that enters into their decision to use deadly force. It should also enter into their decision about how to approach any situation, of course.

You just don't get it - it isn't a matter of "How far should they 'have to' back up". They should back up however far is necessary. And it isn't about what they "have to" do before they can unload on someone - that is exactly the attitude I am talking about. They question is not "Can we shoot him" the question should be "Must we shoot him".

Save your breathe, dude.  He and his twin have already decided that shooting is the first choice.  Others are far more reasonable; save it for them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 08:18:10 PM
I know you meant calling Derspeiss my "twin" was supposed be insulting, but I am actually flattered.  I have healthy respect for the man.  We may differ in politics (though not necessarily as much as we seem to on Languish), but he's decent guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2014, 08:38:57 PM
 :hmm:

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2014/08/27/st-paul-cops-allegedly-taser-and-arrest-black-male-sitting-public-space

QuoteSt. Paul cops allegedly taser and arrest black male for sitting in public space
By Kristoffer Tigue, TC Daily Planet
August 27, 2014

UPDATE: Christopher Lollie, the man identified in the video claims charges against him were dropped. Read more here.

A video showing the arrest of a black St. Paul man for allegedly sitting in a public space and refusing to give up his name surfaced yesterday, Aug. 26 — only weeks after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager in Missouri re-sparked the national debate on race and police profiling.

The video, shot by the man's cellphone, shows his interaction with officers as he attempts to pick up his children from New Horizon Academy in downtown St. Paul. As the officers force the man to put his hands behind his back, he drops his phone and the video goes black, but the audio continues and we hear the man crying for help and proclaiming that his kids are watching. Both officers in the video are white.

"Why do I have to let you know who I am?" the man asks the first female officer at the beginning of the video. "I don't have to let you know who I am if I haven't broken any laws."

From the following dialogue, it appears the police were called by a store clerk, who was upset over the man sitting in front of his store. The man in the video tells the officer he was sitting in front of the store for 10 minutes as he waited for his kids to get out of school, and that the area is public and he had a right to sit there.

"The problem was —" the female officer begins.

"The problem is I'm black," the man fires back. "It really is, because I'm not sitting there with a group of people. I'm sitting there by myself. By myself, not causing a problem."

Eventually a second male officer approaches the man in the video and attempts to restrain him.

"I've got to go get my kids," the man tells the second officer, pulling his arm away. "Please don't touch me."

"You're going to go to jail then," the second officer says.

"I'm not doing anything wrong," the man replies.

At this point, both officers grab the man.

"Come on brother," the man says, "This is assault."

"I'm not your brother," the second officer replies. "Put your hands behind your back otherwise it's going to get ugly."

Eventually the officers start to cuff the man and he drops his cellphone and the video goes black.

"I haven't done anything wrong!" we hear the man yell. "Can somebody help me? That's my kids, right there! My kids are right there!"

"Put your hands behind your back!" the male officer screams.

We hear the flicker of a Taser and the man screams out. As they move away from the cellphone, the man continues to plea to passersby to help him.

In the distance the scene calms down and the man continues to explain to the officers that he still hasn't broken any laws, that he stayed calm, didn't curse and wasn't attempting to flee — making cuffing him and tasering him unnecessary.

"I didn't do anything wrong. I'm a working man. I take care of my kids. And I get this?" we hear him say. "And you tase me. For what? I don't have any weapons. You're the ones with the weapons here."

Watch the video below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UWH578nAasM
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 28, 2014, 08:50:18 PM
spiess is disappointed in the lack of gun fire.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on August 28, 2014, 08:50:55 PM
I know I am.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2014, 09:05:18 PM
I hope the Black Community swoops in and helps him sue. :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 28, 2014, 09:07:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 06:12:25 PM
Okay, smart guy, how far should police have to back up when faced with a knife wielding maniac?  How close should the knife wielder be allowed to get.  I need an exact number.

Officer's discretion.

QuoteI would have it thought obvious that crossing a street while walking backwards and carrying a firearm as a man with a knife advances on you is in fact dangerous.

Not that obvious.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on August 28, 2014, 11:43:39 PM
What I can't understand is why the cops didn't just shoot the knife out of the guy's hand when he started coming toward them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 29, 2014, 07:19:11 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 28, 2014, 11:43:39 PM
What I can't understand is why the cops didn't just shoot the knife out of the guy's hand when he started coming toward them.
Yeah, preferably while holding the gun sideways to increase the coolness factor.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 09:14:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 08:18:10 PM
I know you meant calling Derspeiss my "twin" was supposed be insulting, but I am actually flattered.  I have healthy respect for the man.  We may differ in politics (though not necessarily as much as we seem to on Languish), but he's decent guy.

Save your breathe, dude.  He and his twin have already decided that backing up into a street with traffic would have been the wisest choice.  Others are far more reasonable; save it for them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on August 29, 2014, 09:21:03 AM
What I have taken from all of this is that the best method of suicide is hanging out around cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 09:14:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2014, 08:18:10 PM
I know you meant calling Derspeiss my "twin" was supposed be insulting, but I am actually flattered.  I have healthy respect for the man.  We may differ in politics (though not necessarily as much as we seem to on Languish), but he's decent guy.

Save your breathe, dude.  He and his twin have already decided that backing up into a street with traffic would have been the wisest choice.  Others are far more reasonable; save it for them.

And you wonder why you are so easy to peg?

Did you watch the video?

The police could have moved down the sidewalk. They could have moved to each side of the victim. The officer on the side of the car he approached could have simply moved around the car.


Now, the guy could have forced them into it anyway of course, and given his actions, it is even likely he would have - but we will never know, because the police officers in question clearly, to me, decided that they *could* blow him away, so they did.

The guy was clearly not an imminent threat to anyone. He didn't run at them, he didn't even raise the knife.

What is scary about this video is that the police claim it exonerates them, while sane people who watch it think "That guy didn't need to be shot".

I suspect you especially approved of the two rounds they put into him while he was lying on the ground?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:40:01 AM
I suspect that what spicey and the "shoot first" types don't like about the idea of backing away is that it strikes them as "backing down" - ie, see their equating moveing back with "running away".

And I don't doubt that the same "we don't have to back down" mentality is at play in some of these shootings. It is a cousin to the gun nut "stand your ground" attitude that makes shooting someone something you have the *right* to do as long as you make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed (at least in a strict legal sense), rather than a very regrettable last option in defense of your's or someone else's life.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 29, 2014, 10:05:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:40:01 AM
I suspect that what spicey and the "shoot first" types don't like about the idea of backing away is that it strikes them as "backing down" - ie, see their equating moveing back with "running away".

And I don't doubt that the same "we don't have to back down" mentality is at play in some of these shootings. It is a cousin to the gun nut "stand your ground" attitude that makes shooting someone something you have the *right* to do as long as you make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed (at least in a strict legal sense), rather than a very regrettable last option in defense of your's or someone else's life.

I don't like backing up because it prevents them from doing their job.  Their job was to stop a knife wielding maniac.  The guys actions were unpredictable and he was a danger to both officers and the public.  The guy with the knife came at the officers very quickly.  He didn't appear to be very far away at all when he was shot.  Lets say the officers back up and one trips and the knife guy runs up and stabs him?  What if he suddenly turns around and goes for a bystander?  What if he he moves between the two officers so if they discharge their weapons they'd be doing it at each other.

In this case the priorities should be to protect the public, the officers themselves and the guy with the knife in that order. Backing away does not serve that purpose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 10:06:01 AM
I'm sure I posted this before, but back when I worked on an ambulance we got called to a shooting. Only I wasn't listening to the radio at all, probably because I got like 2 hours sleep the night before, and we show up at the scene, I ask my partner the apartment number we are going to, grab some gear, and start heading into the building. My partner says, "hold up", and I'm thinking he is just wanting me to wait for him, so I'm like "fuck that" and start walking to the building, when a bunch of cops run past me with guns drawn into the building. Had there been a camera on me at the time, we could debate whether I had some hero complex to get close to position to help asap, or was just smartly approaching the building in a safe manner to render aid as soon as the cops cleared the building, but in reality I didn't have a clue what was going on and was just trying to get through a day after staying out till 3 the night before.

The point being, I tend to give the cops some benefit of the doubt in these situations. They don't get paid much, probably don't give much of a shit about the day to day grind, probably aren't too smart to begin with, and maybe are distracted by a fight with the missus, the kids fucking up in school, a hangover, or something else. They get called to check out a nutty dude with a knife. Just another chore in the day. Then the nutty dude starts to approach them--suddenly it isn't just more bullshit, they are in real danger. They had to make a quick decision, and the existence of an alternative may not have occurred to them at that moment.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 10:06:01 AM
I'm sure I posted this before, but back when I worked on an ambulance we got called to a shooting. Only I wasn't listening to the radio at all, probably because I got like 2 hours sleep the night before, and we show up at the scene, I ask my partner the apartment number we are going to, grab some gear, and start heading into the building. My partner says, "hold up", and I'm thinking he is just wanting me to wait for him, so I'm like "fuck that" and start walking to the building, when a bunch of cops run past me with guns drawn into the building. Had there been a camera on me at the time, we could debate whether I had some hero complex to get close to position to help asap, or was just smartly approaching the building in a safe manner to render aid as soon as the cops cleared the building, but in reality I didn't have a clue what was going on and was just trying to get through a day after staying out till 3 the night before.

The point being, I tend to give the cops some benefit of the doubt in these situations. They don't get paid much, probably don't give much of a shit about the day to day grind, probably aren't too smart to begin with, and maybe are distracted by a fight with the missus, the kids fucking up in school, a hangover, or something else. They get called to check out a nutty dude with a knife. Just another chore in the day. Then the nutty dude starts to approach them--suddenly it isn't just more bullshit, they are in real danger. They had to make a quick decision, and the existence of an alternative may not have occurred to them at that moment.

Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 10:35:33 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:30:49 AM
And you wonder why you are so easy to peg?

Did you watch the video?

The police could have moved down the sidewalk. They could have moved to each side of the victim. The officer on the side of the car he approached could have simply moved around the car.


Now, the guy could have forced them into it anyway of course, and given his actions, it is even likely he would have - but we will never know, because the police officers in question clearly, to me, decided that they *could* blow him away, so they did.

The guy was clearly not an imminent threat to anyone. He didn't run at them, he didn't even raise the knife.

What is scary about this video is that the police claim it exonerates them, while sane people who watch it think "That guy didn't need to be shot".

I suspect you especially approved of the two rounds they put into him while he was lying on the ground?

Yes, I did watch the video, and no I'm not into pegging.

I was really just giving grumbler shit with that post (save your breathe, lol).  But anyway the knife guy was an imminent threat.  You don't have to be in some special knife-fighting position to quickly stab someone.

I guess you can put these few seconds under a microscope and postulate on how the incident could have been handled without the guy getting shot.  But it sure seems like the knife guy wanted to be shot and was willing to threaten the cops in order to make that happen.  And I'm guessing from the cop's perspective he wanted to be able to go home & see his kids that evening.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 10:28:12 AM
Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

And I think you're trying to put too fine a point on it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 29, 2014, 10:05:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:40:01 AM
I suspect that what spicey and the "shoot first" types don't like about the idea of backing away is that it strikes them as "backing down" - ie, see their equating moveing back with "running away".

And I don't doubt that the same "we don't have to back down" mentality is at play in some of these shootings. It is a cousin to the gun nut "stand your ground" attitude that makes shooting someone something you have the *right* to do as long as you make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed (at least in a strict legal sense), rather than a very regrettable last option in defense of your's or someone else's life.

I don't like backing up because it prevents them from doing their job. 

Not at all. Maneuvering does not at all prevent them from doing their job, unless their job is to shoot him as quickly as possible.

Quote
Their job was to stop a knife wielding maniac.

Their job is to deal with the situation with as little risk to everyone involved as possible. This person had not attacked anyone, and did not appear to be about to do so. It's not like they showed up to scene with someone already bleeding on the ground.
Quote

The guys actions were unpredictable and he was a danger to both officers and the public.

You don't have to predict his actions, you have to respond to them. And his actions that they responded to was him walking towards them at a walking speed with his knife held at his side.

Quote

  The guy with the knife came at the officers very quickly.

No, he just walked towards them, he didn't run.

Quote
He didn't appear to be very far away at all when he was shot. 

That is because the officers "stood their ground". If they had simply backed away from him while keeping him covered, he would not be that close to them. Now, maybe that just means he forces the issue by actually moving quickly instead of slowly.

Quote

Lets say the officers back up and one trips and the knife guy runs up and stabs him? 

Then we have a stabbed officer and a dead suspect. What is your point?

We can imagine any theoretical scenario where any action taken could have a bad outcome.

Let's say the officers do what they do and kill someone. Isn't that a bad outcome as well, what with someone being dead and all?

[/quote]

What if he suddenly turns around and goes for a bystander?
[/quote]

What if they hit a bystander when they shoot him?

There was no bystander particularly near him, and he didn't attack any bystanders before the cops arrived, so yeah, it is possible he could go after one, there wasn't an imminent threat of him doing so.

Quote
What if he he moves between the two officers so if they discharge their weapons they'd be doing it at each other.

Then the officers would need more training to not allow that to happen.

Quote

In this case the priorities should be to protect the public, the officers themselves and the guy with the knife in that order.

Agreed

Quote
Backing away does not serve that purpose.

It certainly does - unless you just throw away the last concern altogether.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:05:58 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 10:35:33 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 09:30:49 AM
And you wonder why you are so easy to peg?

Did you watch the video?

The police could have moved down the sidewalk. They could have moved to each side of the victim. The officer on the side of the car he approached could have simply moved around the car.


Now, the guy could have forced them into it anyway of course, and given his actions, it is even likely he would have - but we will never know, because the police officers in question clearly, to me, decided that they *could* blow him away, so they did.

The guy was clearly not an imminent threat to anyone. He didn't run at them, he didn't even raise the knife.

What is scary about this video is that the police claim it exonerates them, while sane people who watch it think "That guy didn't need to be shot".

I suspect you especially approved of the two rounds they put into him while he was lying on the ground?

Yes, I did watch the video, and no I'm not into pegging.

I was really just giving grumbler shit with that post (save your breathe, lol).  But anyway the knife guy was an imminent threat.  You don't have to be in some special knife-fighting position to quickly stab someone.

I guess you can put these few seconds under a microscope and postulate on how the incident could have been handled without the guy getting shot.  But it sure seems like the knife guy wanted to be shot and was willing to threaten the cops in order to make that happen.  And I'm guessing from the cop's perspective he wanted to be able to go home & see his kids that evening.

That is a fair point - although if your over-riding concern is to go home and see your kids in the evening, such that you feel that making sure someone else will NOT go home and see his kids that evening takes precedence over you taking even a slight risk of that happening, you should find another line of work.

"Officer safety" is like "If it saves just one child...". An emotional rhetorical argument that means almost nothing. It can be used to justify nearly any action taken.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 10:28:12 AM

Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

If there was a video of a cop taking a step back from a knife wielding nutcase without negative consequence, I doubt anyone would be criticizing.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that most people are pointing out problems with alternative courses of action not to say that none could be taken, but that they weren't without drawbacks.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 10:28:12 AM

Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

If there was a video of a cop taking a step back from a knife wielding nutcase without negative consequence, I doubt anyone would be criticizing.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that most people are pointing out problems with alternative courses of action not to say that none could be taken, but that they weren't without drawbacks.

Well yeah, of course there are drawbacks to ANY course of action. That goes without saying though.

What I find surprising is that to me, there is a HUGE drawback to the actual course of action taken - someone is DEAD.

That seems to be just dismissed as a relatively minor negative outcome, such that "Oh no, if the cop moves away, he might trip!" actually becomes a *worse* outcome than someone being killed???

That is kind of amazing to me, and again, goes back to the fundamental idea among many that shooting someone is a first or second option, rather than a last...as long as, you know, you can justify it in the narrowest sense of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:24:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
Well yeah, of course there are drawbacks to ANY course of action. That goes without saying though.

What I find surprising is that to me, there is a HUGE drawback to the actual course of action taken - someone is DEAD.

That seems to be just dismissed as a relatively minor negative outcome, such that "Oh no, if the cop moves away, he might trip!" actually becomes a *worse* outcome than someone being killed???

That is kind of amazing to me, and again, goes back to the fundamental idea among many that shooting someone is a first or second option, rather than a last...as long as, you know, you can justify it in the narrowest sense of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU

Tripping is a bit of a bigger deal when you have a knife wielding madman coming at you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:24:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
Well yeah, of course there are drawbacks to ANY course of action. That goes without saying though.

What I find surprising is that to me, there is a HUGE drawback to the actual course of action taken - someone is DEAD.

That seems to be just dismissed as a relatively minor negative outcome, such that "Oh no, if the cop moves away, he might trip!" actually becomes a *worse* outcome than someone being killed???

That is kind of amazing to me, and again, goes back to the fundamental idea among many that shooting someone is a first or second option, rather than a last...as long as, you know, you can justify it in the narrowest sense of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU

Tripping is a bit of a bigger deal when you have a knife wielding madman coming at you.

If the major issue with any potential course of action that doesn't involve just shooting is the fear that you may no be able to walk without falling down, again, you might consider another line of work.

It is comical that the primary reason the cops had to shoot that man 9 times, including twice after he was already on the ground, was their fear that they would not be able to move from the spot they were in without falling down.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
If the major issue with any potential course of action that doesn't involve just shooting is the fear that you may no be able to walk without falling down, again, you might consider another line of work.


The don't have eyes in the back of their heads. They have to stay focused on the guy with the knife, and stay in a position to quickly fire.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 12:03:39 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
If the major issue with any potential course of action that doesn't involve just shooting is the fear that you may no be able to walk without falling down, again, you might consider another line of work.


The don't have eyes in the back of their heads. They have to stay focused on the guy with the knife, and stay in a position to quickly fire.


..which they can do while maneuvering to maintain separation from someone walking towards them...

You know, unless they forgot to tie their shoes, and trip.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on August 29, 2014, 12:18:31 PM
I'm glad when police cordoned off the scene and people backed up nobody was hurt due to a serious backwards walking accident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 29, 2014, 12:22:21 PM
I never managed to fall backwards while maintaining a safe distance from anybody.  But maybe I was just lucky, being left-handed and all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on August 29, 2014, 12:49:27 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2014, 12:18:31 PM
I'm glad when police cordoned off the scene and people backed up nobody was hurt due to a serious backwards walking accident.

You ask someone to balance across a 2 foot wide walkway a foot above the ground and she has no problem at all. You raise that walkway 100 feet in the air and ask her to do it, and she won't try and think you are a madman for asking.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on August 29, 2014, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 10:28:12 AM
Those would be good explanations for why a police officer made a mistake - perhaps in this case a mistake was made.

But the argument here is not that a mistake was made, but that in fact they did exactly what they should have done.

And I think you're trying to put too fine a point on it.

Someone working for a government agency shot and killed a citizen.  I am not sure that it's possible for that point to be too fine.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on August 29, 2014, 01:29:23 PM
Quote from: sbr on August 29, 2014, 01:05:05 PM
Someone working for a government agency shot and killed a citizen.  I am not sure that it's possible for that point to be too fine.

When it's a crazy person coming at them with a knife, I think it is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 29, 2014, 03:29:52 PM
I'm not going to respond in in-depth to Berkut (in no small part because of the screwy quotes), but he and I have a different idea what the cops are supposed to be doing.  It would seem for him the optimal situation is if the cops didn't arrive at all, since that would do the most to protect people from being shot by cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2014, 06:26:16 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 29, 2014, 12:22:21 PM
I never managed to fall backwards while maintaining a safe distance from anybody.  But maybe I was just lucky, being left-handed and all.

That's cause you all (lefties) are backwards anyway.



































and you write funny too.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 31, 2014, 02:11:19 PM
QuotePoliceman resigns after pointing rifle at Ferguson protesters
Officer was suspended after cellphone video caught him threatening civilians protesting shooting death of Michael Brown


August 29, 2014 5:45PM ET

A police officer resigned after he was suspended for pointing his semi-automatic rifle and threatening protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, amid demonstrations that broke out after the shooting death of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, police said.

Lt. Ray Albers resigned Thursday, St. Ann Police Chief Aaron Jimenez said. Albers had been shown on cellphone video pointing his rifle at demonstrators and threatening them on Aug. 19 in Ferguson.

In the video, a man is heard saying, "Oh my God! Gun raised!" as the officer approaches. The officer walks near the man, gun pointed, and appears to threaten to kill him. A St. Louis County police sergeant forced the officer to lower the weapon and escorted him away.

A message left on Albers' home phone was not immediately returned.

The fatal shooting of Brown – an unarmed African-American teenager – by a white police officer ignited days of protests. Local police in riot gear fired tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters who refused to disperse and, at times, vandalized nearby stores.

After widespread criticism of the local police response, Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon placed the State Highway Patrol in charge of securing Ferguson with a more relaxed approach. Nixon later called in the National Guard and imposed a curfew that was lifted after several nights of clashes between police and protesters.

The Associated Press
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on August 31, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
It is comical that the primary reason the cops had to shoot that man 9 times, including twice after he was already on the ground, was their fear that they would not be able to move from the spot they were in without falling down.

If you are standing and up against a man with seven bullets in him lying bleeding on the ground, you are at an immediate disadvantage.  Justifiable self-defense.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2014, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 31, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 29, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
It is comical that the primary reason the cops had to shoot that man 9 times, including twice after he was already on the ground, was their fear that they would not be able to move from the spot they were in without falling down.

If you are standing and up against a man with seven bullets in him lying bleeding on the ground, you are at an immediate disadvantage.  Justifiable self-defense.
if he was mad before you sot him 7 times, imagine how mad he was after. better take no chances.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 31, 2014, 04:21:20 PM
You know you have issues when you have to disband the entire PD and start over from scratch, like a Jiffy Lube under new management.

QuoteFERGUSON, Mo. — The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.

That was three years ago. One of the officers who worked in that department, and lost his job along with everyone else, was a young man named Darren Wilson.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 31, 2014, 08:31:21 PM
QuoteAt least 5 Ferguson officers apart from Brown shooter have been named in lawsuits
WashingtonPost


Federal investigators are focused on one Ferguson, Mo., police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black teenager, but at least five other police officers and one former officer in the town's 53-member department have been named in civil rights lawsuits alleging the use of excessive force.

In four federal lawsuits, including one that is on appeal, and more than a half-dozen investigations over the past decade, colleagues of Darren Wilson's have separately contested a variety of allegations, including killing a mentally ill man with a Taser, pistol-whipping a child, choking and hog-tying a child and beating a man who was later charged with destroying city property because his blood spilled on officers' clothes.

One officer has faced three internal affairs probes and two lawsuits over claims he violated civil rights and used excessive force while working at a previous police department in the mid-2000s. That department demoted him after finding credible evidence to support one of the complaints, and he subsequently was hired by the Ferguson force.

Police officials from outside Ferguson and plaintiffs' lawyers say the nature of such cases suggests there is a systemic problem within the Ferguson police force. Department of Justice officials said they are considering a broader probe into whether there is a pattern of using excessive force that routinely violates people's civil rights.

Counting Wilson, whose shooting of Michael Brown on Aug. 9 set off a firestorm of protests and a national debate on race and policing, about 13 percent of Ferguson's officers have faced ­excessive-force investigations. Comparable national data on excessive force probes is not available. But the National Police Misconduct Statistics and Reporting Project, funded by the libertarian Cato Institute, estimated on the basis of 2010 data that about 1 percent of U.S. police officers — 9.8 out of every 1,000 — will be cited for or charged with misconduct. Half of those cases involve excessive force.

The Ferguson Police Department and city officials declined to comment on the cases.

In all but one of the cases, the victims were black. Among the officers involved in the cases, one is African American.

Ferguson has plenty of company when it comes to federal scrutiny of police departments.

Under Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., the Justice Department has initiated twice as many reviews of police departments for possible constitutional violations as the next most prolific of his predecessors. At least 34 other departments are under investigation for alleged civil rights violations.

But Clarence Harmon, a former St. Louis mayor and city police chief, said the number and types of allegations in Ferguson set the city's department apart.

"The cases themselves are fairly extraordinary — so is the volume," said Harmon, who in 1997 became the second black mayor of the city. "It's prima facie evidence of discriminatory practices. I would be surprised if Justice didn't make a recommendation that they be placed under scrutiny."

James O. Pasco Jr., national executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, cautions that police officers are constantly accused of using excessive force and that those accusations are just "one side of the story" and do not tell exactly what happened. In 90 percent of cases in which a department has a systemic problem, the issue is with poor management, not the individual officers, he said.

"To suggest that police officers are a marauding, white occupying army out there to deprive minorities of their civil rights is at variance with common sense," Pasco said. "You can't have rogue officers in a well-managed police department."

The five officers and one former officer have faced complaints of excessive force in five civil rights lawsuits; one of the suits was resolved with the officer not being held liable and the department paying a settlement, and four are pending, one on appeal. Two of the officers faced these complaints during their time at other police departments.

One officer allegedly used excessive force in two incidents, both while at the Ferguson Police Department.


Samuel Bagenstos, a former Justice Department attorney who helped oversee the civil rights division for the Obama administration from 2009 to 2011, said a federal probe into potentially systemic problems within a police force would consider hiring practices as one of several factors.

"They would look at whether they are properly screening people that they are considering to hire," said Bagenstos, now a professor of law at the University of Michigan.

The most recent civil rights lawsuit naming Ferguson police officers was filed days after Brown was shot and involves a September 2011 incident.

According to the lawsuit, officers encountered a dazed-looking man walking from behind a building in a residential area. Officer Brian Kaminski ordered 31-year-old Jason Moore to put his hands up and walk toward him, according to the suit, which then alleges that Kaminski fired his Taser prongs into Moore's chest and legs.

A second officer, Michael White, arrived and physically held Moore while Kaminski repeatedly Tasered him with electric currents, the lawsuit said.

Both officers are white. Moore was black.

Moore, who had a mental disorder, suffered a heart attack on the scene and died. His wife, Tina Moore, filed the lawsuit, saying her husband's death was another example of Ferguson police using excessive force.

"There was no need for the officers' excessive use of force in continuing to Taser Jason Moore in order to preserve the peace, maintain order or to overcome any resistance to authority by Jason Moore," says the suit, which names Ferguson Mayor James Knowles and Chief Thomas Jackson.

"Rather than applying the appropriate level of force required to restrain Jason Moore, Officer Kaminski, with the assistance of Officer White, instead Tasered Jason Moore until he became unresponsive and died," the suit continues.

Tina Moore's attorney, Mark Floyd, declined to comment on the case. Peter Dunne, an attorney recently assigned to represent the officers, also declined to comment, saying he has yet to review the case since it was just filed.

Dunne is also representing White in a case that involves one other current Ferguson officer and a former officer who has since been elected to the Ferguson City Council. A 54-year-old welder, Henry Davis, was injured in an altercation with the three officers. Officers say it happened because Davis became combative, which Davis denies. The officers charged Davis with destruction of property when his blood stained their uniforms. Davis is black. The officers are white.

The other two officers — John Beaird and Kim Tihen, who is now on the City Council — testified that Davis initiated the fight. Davis testified that he asked for a mat to sleep on in the jail cell, a request he said was denied. When he protested, he said, the officers started to hit him, then handcuffed him. White, Davis said, kicked him in the head. Medical records show he suffered a concussion.

The judge said that Davis, who was arrested for allegedly driving under the influence and other violations, suffered injuries but that they were "de minimis" — too minor to warrant a finding of excessive force, records show. The case is being appealed.

Davis's attorney, James W. Schottel Jr., said he believes his client will ultimately prevail because he is introducing new evidence to show that his client's concussion is a serious injury.

Dunne disagreed about the merits of Davis's case: "What I would say is, he got turned down at every point. . . . Not a single thing he sued for [was] allowed to go forward to the jury."

Dunne also represents the Ferguson officer who faced at least five complaints of excessive force when he worked at the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department.

Eddie Boyd III arrived in Ferguson four years ago after three internal affairs investigations into complaints — in 2004, 2005 and 2006 — that he assaulted and injured children without cause.

Boyd and the children are African American. In at least two cases, the children said Boyd pistol-whipped them. In the 2006 case, the department "sustained" the allegations, concluding that Boyd had used unnecessary force when he struck 12-year-old Jerica Thornton with his pistol, records show.

Boyd was suspended and demoted to the rank of a probationary police officer. But the next year, Christopher Dixon, a high school freshman, said Boyd tackled him as he fled an after-school fight and hit him in the face with the butt of his pistol. Boyd said he accidentally hit Dixon's face with his handcuffs when Dixon resisted arrest, records show.

Boyd resigned from the St. Louis force shortly after this incident, saying in a deposition he wanted to avoid the "red tape" of what would have been his fourth internal affairs probe. Boyd was not held liable in the Dixon suit. His police department settled out of court, paying the teenager $35,000, according to Dixon's attorney, Matthew Devoti.

Another lawsuit filed against Boyd alleging he assaulted a suspect is pending.

"I think it's incorrect and misleading to say that he is a guy with a record when he denied that he acted improperly in all of these cases," Dunne said. "In two of these [internal affairs] cases, they were found to not have any merit at all."

Another Ferguson officer faced a complaint on a previous job.

Justin Cosma was one of two Jefferson County sheriff's deputies who in June 2010 came upon a shirtless 12-year-old boy who was checking the family mailbox. The deputies asked him what he was doing, knocked him down, and hogtied him, and the boy was choked and beaten, the lawsuit claims. The officers and the boy are white.

When asked about the accusations, Cosma's attorney, Jason Retter, said he does not comment on pending cases.

Cosma was one of the officers who arrested reporters, including a Washington Post journalist, covering the protests in Ferguson over the killing of Michael Brown.

In the Jefferson County incident, Cosma filed a report that the 12-year-old assaulted him and his partner and was "resisting/
interfering with arrest, detention or stop." The local prosecutor refused to bring charges against the juvenile.

"They were talking to him and the next thing that happens is they are restraining him," said the attorney for the boy's family, Richard Lozano. "Because he was shirtless, he was grabbed around the neck. He had choke marks. They tied his hands and feet behind his back, and hogtied him — all on his property, all while his mother was inside the house."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on August 31, 2014, 08:53:57 PM
That's a lot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 31, 2014, 11:59:00 PM
Yet all those folks who brought assault rifles to Target weren't bothered. I wonder why?  :hmm:

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2014/8/26/172728/694
QuoteVideo of Black Man's Death Raises Questions

by Steven D
Tue Aug 26th, 2014 at 05:50:56 PM EST
John Crawford was the unfortunate black man holding a BB gun in the toy section of a Walmart Store in Beavercreek, OH, when police, in response to several 911 calls, shot and killed him on August 5, 2014.

Police have maintained that Crawford was waving the BB gun around in a threatening manner when they arrived and refused their commands to drop the "weapon" (even though Ohio is an "open carry" state), thus requiring his execution style death by cop.

However, Ohio Attorney General Mike Dewine, who assigned the case investigating the police homicide of Mr. Crawford to a special prosecutor, recently allowed family members and their attorneys to view the surveillance tape from the store that shows the moments up to and including John Crawford's shooting death by police. After viewing that tape, the family's attorneys and Crawford's father dispute the police account of this incident in no uncertain terms:

   
QuoteAttorney Michael Wright said: "We need Mike DeWine to refer this case to the Department of Justice. Not to a special prosecutor."

    Wright said Crawford did nothing wrong in Walmart. "Nothing more, nothing less than shopping."

    Wright, who has seen store surveillance video of the shooting incident, said Crawford was shot while talking on the phone, holding the butt of the gun with the barrel pointed at the floor.

    He said Crawford was "shot on sight" in a "militaristic" response.

This is extremely troubling news. Much like the case of Michael Brown, the family has been complaining that leaks about the investigation have benefited the police shooters and denigrated John Crawford's character.
Quote
    "Everything released is one-sided. There is nothing favorable to John Crawford. You can't show different pieces, show it all, don't trickle pieces to gain favor of the public, "said Michael Wright, Crawford family attorney. Wright wants to see the release of events in chronological order.

    Wright says the video shows Crawford standing in the direction of some shelves. He say Crawford was talking on his cell phone and probably did not see or hear the police officer sent to the store to investigate. He said in one frame you see Crawford on the phone, the next you see him on the floor.

    Crawford's father questions the timing of the state's investigation.

    "My main concern is the delay. What's taking so long? I understand it's a process, but frankly, I see stall tactics," said John Crawford II [the decedent's father].

According to the family and its lawyers, the video supports their claim that John Crawford was on his cell phone talking to his girlfriend and doing nothing else when the police entered the store and shot him down for the crime of being Black and holding a toy gun in a Walmart.
Quote
    Crawford was speaking by cell phone to his girlfriend, who was with his parents, when he was shot.

    "He said he was at the video games playing videos, and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were," said LeeCee Johnson, the mother of his two children. "The next thing I know, he said, 'It's not real,' and the police start shooting, and they said 'Get on the ground,' but he was already on the ground because they had shot him."

    Johnson put the phone on speaker mode, and she and Crawford's parents heard him die.

    "I could hear him just crying and screaming," Johnson said. "I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human."
The Grand Jury is set to begin hearing evidence regarding the Crawford shooting on September 22, 2014, assuming no further delays. Meanwhile, one of the police officers who shot Crawford is already back on the job, while the other one remains on administrative leave with pay. It should be remembered that Mr. Crawford was not the only victim of this "incident." Another shopper, 37 year old Angela Williams "collapsed and died as she scrambled to get away after police fired at Crawford." All because of the claims made by 911 callers such as this one:
Quote
    In one of those calls, which was released by police, a Wal-Mart shopper told emergency dispatchers that it looked like the man — later identified as Crawford — was trying to load the rifle and that he had pointed it at two children, WHIO reported.

    The 911 caller's wife said that Crawford was on the phone and that he was messing with the gun. She said that after police ordered Crawford to put down the unidentified weapon, "I heard two shots after I saw him turn. He still had the weapon in his hand."

Considering the content of the video, and the fact that Crawford was a father of two children with his girlfriend (with the couple expecting a third child), I find that story a little hard to swallow. Sounds like panic by white shoppers and an unwarranted response by the police who shot a harmless man while he was talking on his phone. All because he was a scary black man. But what do I know.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on September 01, 2014, 02:06:55 PM
Fuck John Crawford. He caused a panic and a woman dropped dead.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on September 01, 2014, 04:01:19 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 01, 2014, 02:06:55 PM
Fuck John Crawford. He caused a panic and a woman dropped dead.

Exactly.  By forcing the police to shoot him,* he directly caused the death of a 37-year-old woman who died of a heart attack when she heard the gunshots.

I also don't know how he couldn't have expected to die when he threatened the police, after being shot, by saying "it's not real."  Suicide by cop?


* They really didn't have a choice; he was facing away from them, and using the gun as a cane while he talked on the phone.  Clearly, a man facing away from police and talking on a phone is about to murder them.  And not killing him on the spot, or even telling him to turn around, would obviously be "running away."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on September 01, 2014, 05:05:29 PM
I knew they would be trouble when they put that RTA bus stop at Fairfield Commons.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 09:56:33 AM
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

Apparently it is possible to deal with someone acting irrationally and armed without just blowing him away 20 seconds into the stop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Oh, Jeffrey...you know damn well a crazy white guy walking around with an assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as an unarmed black teen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 08, 2014, 11:11:45 AM
I'm glad that they didn't kill that guy but man...that sure underlines the treatment of whites vs. blacks.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:15:05 AM
Yeah, it does.  But we knew that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:17:38 AM
What I thought was interesting (and encouraging) about that article was that the cops were actually discussing the legal and constitutional implications of their options.

Mostly it seems like cops are not aware of those implications, or if they are, it is strictly from the standpoint of "Have we done the minimum so we can pretend like we met them?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:20:09 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Oh, Jeffrey...you know damn well a crazy white guy walking around with an assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as an unarmed black teen.

Was the white guy harming anyone?  I think they were a bit lenient on him but he kept his distance from people and didn't seem to really be much of a threat.  A bit different from punching a cop inside his car and going for his gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on September 08, 2014, 11:21:22 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:20:09 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Oh, Jeffrey...you know damn well a crazy white guy walking around with an assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as an unarmed black teen.

Was the white guy harming anyone?  I think they were a bit lenient on him but he kept his distance from people and didn't seem to really be much of a threat.  A bit different from punching a cop inside his car and going for his gun.

Is that what all those dead black guys were doing?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: Jacob on September 08, 2014, 11:21:22 AM
Is that what all those dead black guys were doing?

Oh, I thought this one Michigan case was being compared against the Missouri one this thread was started for. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:31:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 08, 2014, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: Jacob on September 08, 2014, 11:21:22 AM
Is that what all those dead black guys were doing?

Oh, I thought this one Michigan case was being compared against the Missouri one this thread was started for. 

There have been a lot more fatal shootings of black people since then*, many of which have been discussed in this thread.

*really before then too.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:37:29 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:31:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.

As I am not afraid of black people, I never felt compelled to shoot any of them.  Creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:42:53 AM
I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:51:57 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:42:53 AM
I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

Okay, that's fair then.  But knife guy was brandishing the knife and crazy old coot was not brandishing his rifle as far as I could tell.

That said, I'm surprised crazy old coot didn't get charged with something and even got his rifle back the next day.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:58:17 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:51:57 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:42:53 AM
I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

Okay, that's fair then.  But knife guy was brandishing the knife and crazy old coot was not brandishing his rifle as far as I could tell.

That said, I'm surprised crazy old coot didn't get charged with something and even got his rifle back the next day.

Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 12:02:55 PM
lol, walking down the street with an assault rifle isn't "brandishing".  Funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:09:36 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account

Quote[...]

The couple separated inside the store. Crawford began a conversation on his mobile phone with LeeCee Johnson, the mother of his two sons. Walking in the sporting goods section, he approached a shelf and picked up a MK-177 BB/pellet air rifle, which was already unboxed.

"He never put the phone down," said his father. "He just kind of picked the rifle up and carried it, was walking around with it."

From this point, the Crawford team's description of what is shown in the surveillance footage differs radically from Ritchie's recollection, which he insisted was also backed up by the recordings from the Walmart cameras.

Crawford's father and attorneys said that the footage showed the 22-year-old walking from one aisle to the next with the BB rifle at his side and in his left hand, pointed at the floor except for one notable movement.

"I would think that the rifle maybe got heavy to him," said his father. "He kind of swung it like you carry it on your shoulder, then he immediately put it back down."

"You can clearly see people walk past him, and they didn't think anything about it. Everybody was just kind of minding their own business," his father added. "He wasn't acting in any type of way that he would have been considered menacing, if you will."

Ritchie, however, says Crawford was "waving the weapon around", causing the muzzle to move in the direction of passersby, including him and his wife, April. "And even still, it's a gun in Walmart, in a public place, inducing panic," said Ritchie.

The Crawford family's attorneys contend that Ohio's "open-carry" law means that he could have been legally holding the rifle in the store even if it had been a full-powered firearm. "We never saw him waving this rifle in front of kids or people," said his father.

Crawford arrived at the pet products section in the next aisle, estimated at 60 yards from where he had picked up the item. Then, his family and their attorneys say, at about 8.20pm, he stopped and stood still for about six minutes. "With the rifle pointed down and the cell phone up in his right hand," said his father, he stayed there facing a shelf, apparently preoccupied by the call.

"He didn't move," said his father. "He was stood so still, in fact, we thought the track had actually stopped. I asked the technician 'what's going on?' and he said 'Well, the reel is still running Mr Crawford, look at the time'."

Ritchie, on the other hand, stated that at this stage, Crawford was "pointing [the BB rifle] at things, like moving things around the shelf with the gun."

At about 8.26pm, armed police officers responding to Ritchie's 911 call five minutes earlier come into view on the footage, according to those who viewed it. Within seconds, Crawford was shot twice and pounced on. He was taken to hospital but died from his wounds. The Crawfords' attorneys say only Ritchie called 911 before the shooting.

Police and Ritchie say an officer to Crawford's left twice shouted "put it down". "Responding officers confronted the suspect inside the store area and the subject was shot after failing to comply with officers' verbal commands," a Beavercreek police spokesman said in a statement.

Ritchie says Crawford turned towards the officer after hearing the instruction, and then moved to run to his right, causing the BB rifle's muzzle to swing in the officer's direction moments before the officer fired.

"Then he got back up and tried to either go for the rifle or go for one of the officers," Ritchie said of Crawford. "But the officer had him on the ground before he got to either target."

Yet the Crawford team dismiss almost all of this. By the time the officer advanced from his left, according to Wright, Crawford was "turned 30 degrees to the right," standing "almost in a catty-corner position, facing in an opposite direction to the direction they were coming".

He did not seem to hear the police orders, said Wright. "Based on the video that we saw, it did not even appear that he knew they were there," he said. "He doesn't look at the officers, he doesn't turn his body towards the officers. It's as if he was just shot on sight by the officers."

Johnson, the mother of Crawford's children, who remained on the phone line to him throughout, has told reporters that she heard him say "It's not real", adding: "they said 'get on the ground,' but he was already on the ground because they had shot him". Wright said they were trying to reconcile this with the footage.

Crawford's father and Wright insist that the footage also did not show the 22-year-old trying to flee, nor trying to get back up to reach the weapon, which, they stress, he would have known was an unloaded BB rifle with no potential use. His only movement, they said, was a few steps to the right and to the ground upon being shot.

The Crawfords' attorneys said they had been informed by Dr Robert Shott, deputy coroner of Montgomery County, that the 22-year-old was "shot in the back of the left arm, above the elbow, and on the left side of his torso, to the left of his belly button". Shott did not respond to a message requesting comment. Ritchie, however, said the first shot entered Crawford's arm from the front after he turned to the officer.

Within a few minutes, fellow shopper Angela Williams, a 37-year-old nursing home worker reported to have suffered from a heart condition, was in cardiac arrest after collapsing trying to flee the melee. She died later that evening in hospital.

Crawford's attorneys said Williams and two of her young children had been in the same aisle as Crawford in the moments before the shooting. "She was completely indifferent as to him being there," said Wright. "She wasn't startled, she wasn't alarmed or anything like that."

Ritchie said that it was his own heart condition that saw him discharged from the US marines after joining in September 2008. He insisted that he had disclosed the condition when signing up. However, he claimed, "my recruiter never turned that paperwork in, so they considered me a fraudulent enlistment" when officers later discovered the condition.

[...]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 12:18:08 PM
But see, Syt, 2nd Amendment open carry rights are not conveyed to a BB rifle.


QuoteWithin a few minutes, fellow shopper Angela Williams, a 37-year-old nursing home worker reported to have suffered from a heart condition, was in cardiac arrest after collapsing trying to flee the melee. She died later that evening in hospital.

Nice.  Two wrongful death suits.  Way to go, Officer Friendly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 12:21:22 PM
I like the claim that he was "trying to go for the weapon" after they shot him.

It makes such good sense to make such a claim when you are the shooting officer trying to justify your shooting...but sounds pretty ridiculous once you find out it was a unloaded BB gun.

I've been shot! Must...reach....bb...gun....
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:23:56 PM
I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

I'm sure the Corps appreciates people going around making boasts if they barely made it through basic.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:58:17 AM
Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

He didn't have the knife raised, but he was still brandishing it.  It was certainly reported as brandishing in the news stories I read.

QuoteIf you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

Knife guy was acting very aggressive, walking directly towards the police.  You do realize a knife wielder can stab someone with an upward motion, don't you?  Crazy old coot had his rifle pointing upwards at all times and never did anything to threaten the cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:23:56 PM
I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

Is this the same guy who said Crawford was randomly aiming the rifle at kids and other people in the store?  If his claims were exaggerated, he bears a lot of responsibility for Crawford being shot. 

At the same time, I don't understand how Crawford could have been so absorbed in his phone conversation that he didn't notice the cops there.  One thing cops always seem to do well is make their presence known.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 12:23:56 PM
I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

Is this the same guy who said Crawford was randomly aiming the rifle at kids and other people in the store?  If his claims were exaggerated, he bears a lot of responsibility for Crawford being shot. 

Yeah, he's the one who called the cops. He had to backpedal already about his claims that he aimed at customers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 08, 2014, 11:58:17 AM
Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

He didn't have the knife raised, but he was still brandishing it.  It was certainly reported as brandishing in the news stories I read.

Watch the video.

How do you "brandish" a knife without raising it?

Quote

QuoteIf you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

Knife guy was acting very aggressive, walking directly towards the police.

That is not acting "very aggressive" that is walking towards someone. He didn't run at them, he never go close enough to actually attack them. He was never even remotely near a point where he could have injured or killed them as quickly as someone with an rifle could from whatever range rifle guy was at from the police and bystanders.

Quote
  You do realize a knife wielder can stab someone with an upward motion, don't you?

Only if they are within arms reach.

You do realize that someone with a gun can shoot someone simply by dropping the rifle and pulling the trigger, right?
Quote
Crazy old coot had his rifle pointing upwards at all times and never did anything to threaten the cop.

Which was a good reason for them not to go all "Hey, he has a gun, he is acting kind of weird, why, I think this means I get to shoot him!"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on September 08, 2014, 12:54:32 PM
Actually raising the knife is an ineffective way to use it as weapon.  You want to stab at the gut, not come down on the skull or rib cage.  You hold a knife low and stab under the rib at an angle to try to hit the heart.  Or at least that's what they said in my psycho murderer class I took.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 14, 2014, 08:58:58 AM
Posting this from buzzfeed as every other source starts with claim that police thought she was a prostitute which looks like might just be angry claim from her husband (whom buzzfeed calls her partner?).

My take on any of these stories of black people be detained or arrested is that I will always produce ID even if it isn't required by law. Of course, that means I'll have to remember to always have ID on me. -_-

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/the-lapd-handcuffed-and-detain-a-django-unchained-actress#39jqgut

QuoteThe LAPD Allegedly Handcuffed And Detained A "Django Unchained" Actress

Daniele Watts was handcuffed and put in the back of a squad car after she and her partner Brian Lucas were caught kissing in a car Thursday. The interracial couple said police kept asking if they actually knew each other.

Watts — best known for her role in the Quentin Tarantino's Django Unchained — told BuzzFeed News the incident happened Sept. 11. She had just dropped off a friend at a diversity showcase when she met up with Lucas, who was in a parked car near CBS's Studio City production facility. Then the couple started kissing.

"I sat on his lap in the front seat of the car and we start making out," Watts said.

Soon thereafter, a man from a nearby office came out and asked Watts and Lucas to "stop putting on a show." Watts stressed to BuzzFeed News that she and Lucas were fully clothed and only kissing, but said they stopped anyway. She got out of the car and eventually called her dad to ask about family.

Police soon arrived and said they had received a call about lewdness.

As the police arrived, Watts was standing on the sidewalk and still on the phone while Lucas was nearby. When the police asked for the couple's ID's, Lucas complied but Watts that she wasn't required to hand her ID over. She told BuzzFeed News she then announced that she was walking away. The police said nothing, she recalled, so she left and walked about a block and a half down the street.

"I didn't have the stomach for someone on a power trip when I knew I hadn't done anything wrong," she explained.

Lucas told BuzzFeed News that as Watts walked away one of the officers "said something like, 'I wouldn't leave if I was her.'" However, Lucas also said that no one told Watts not to walk away.

Moments later, a second police car arrived and the officers took Watts into custody.

"So then I'm still talking to my dad," Watts said, "and a squad car pulls up and shouts at me, 'put your hands on the wall." Watts complied, and the police handcuffed her, loaded her in the back of the car and drove her back to the initial scene. Watts said she suffers from panic attacks from past trauma, and she started hyperventilating.

While police were handcuffing Watts, they were also asking Lucas what kind of relationship the couple had.

According to Lucas, the police kept asking, "do you really know her?" He described their questions as being filled with "innuendo." When asked what that meant, he said the questions seemed to imply that Watts was a prostitute and he was a client. Lucas said the police never explicitly said that was what they thought, but that was how he felt.

Watts and Lucas were eventually released at the scene, but not before the handcuffs cut Watts' wrist.

Back at the original scene, police had Watts sit on the sidewalk in handcuffs. "It was humiliating," she said. "It was absolutely humiliating."

Lucas eventually turned over Watts' ID, and when police learned her actual identity they released them both, she said. By the time she was free, however, Watts' wrist had been cut by the handcuffs.

The Los Angeles Police Department does not have a record of the incident.

Saturday, BuzzFeed News spoke with the Los Angeles Police Department, which patrols the Studio City neighborhood where the incident happened. When given the address and approximate time of the incident, police were unable to find any records of it. A spokesperson said that records are produced for arrests, so it wasn't out of the ordinary that an incident involving only an on-scene detention would lack documentation. However, without documents, the LAPD could not comment on the incident.

Lucas later provided BuzzFeed News with the names of the officers, but the LAPD could not be reached for comment late Friday night.

Now Watts and Lucas are left wondering why they were stopped in the first place.

Watts, who is black, and Lucas, who is white, both said that race was playing on their minds during the incident. Still, Watts said she didn't want it to boil down to that.

"It wasn't a black white thing, it was more about something like a hypocrisy," she said. "And I think these kinds of discussions can help us."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on September 14, 2014, 12:37:38 PM


I know Seedy knows what the 21' rule is. However you still need to link that the suspect has Opportunity, Capability, and Intent to employ deadly force. Just because the chap has a knife doesnt mean you automatically shoot him.

Might help explain more of the mind set.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 14, 2014, 12:41:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU)  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 14, 2014, 01:00:17 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 14, 2014, 12:37:38 PM

I know Seedy knows what the 21' rule is. However you still need to link that the suspect has Opportunity, Capability, and Intent to employ deadly force. Just because the chap has a knife doesnt mean you automatically shoot him.

It's all context.  We had a guy once with one of those butcher cleaver knives, the big square ones, in a 10' by 10' quiet room.  One way in, one way out.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Rushed him with a shitload of mattresses.   His intent wasn't to carve up some cops, his intent was to harm himself.

As far as I'm concerned, the video that prompted this entire discussion, they didn't have to shoot him.  At that particular moment, at least.

QuoteMight help explain more of the mind set.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx

LOL, PoliceMag.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2011/07/01/maryland-transportation-authority-police-lose-take-home-vehicles.aspx


Worked so fucking hard on that program.   :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on September 14, 2014, 03:14:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:31:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.

White Knighting?  Really?  Going for sociopathic douchebag shit now?  Of course you cheer on government officials shooting US citizens unnecessarily despite wanting the government to leave people alone.  How you work out those mental gymnastics is beyond me. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 14, 2014, 03:40:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 14, 2014, 03:14:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 08, 2014, 11:31:13 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 08, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
It's what negroes do.  If it's not our white women, it's our guns.

Keep on white knighting, white knight.  I shudder to think how they'd get along without you.

White Knighting?  Really?  Going for sociopathic douchebag shit now?  Of course you cheer on government officials shooting US citizens unnecessarily despite wanting the government to leave people alone.  How you work out those mental gymnastics is beyond me. 

Pretty easy if you don't think black people are people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on September 27, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2014, 11:52:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 27, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(

What is wrong with you?  In none of the situations we talked about did the person have a gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 11:57:12 PM
Sometimes Raz gets overstimulated and lashes out wildly.  Saw a lot of that at the animal shelter.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on September 28, 2014, 12:17:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2014, 11:52:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 27, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(

What is wrong with you?  In none of the situations we talked about did the person have a gun.

He did have a weapon.  Therefore the police should have backed up.  It's the police's fault what with the militarization and such.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 28, 2014, 04:10:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUUO_VFYMs

Guy gets shot because he moves too fast in getting his license. (0:40)

Good news: he survives.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on September 28, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 11:57:12 PM
Sometimes Raz gets overstimulated and lashes out wildly.  Saw a lot of that at the animal shelter.

:D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on September 28, 2014, 10:25:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2014, 11:52:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 27, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
Officer was shot tonight.  If only he backed up more. :(

What is wrong with you?  In none of the situations we talked about did the person have a gun.
After all the years you and he have been here, you have to ask what is wrong with him?

When you engage with him after he says stupid stuff like this, you just encourage him to say more stupid stuff.

One option is to refuse to engage him when he says stupid stuff.  The better option is not to engage him no matter what he says.   :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 10:42:09 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 28, 2014, 04:10:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUUO_VFYMs

Guy gets shot because he moves too fast in getting his license. (0:40)

Good news: he survives.

Better news:  cop gets fired and criminally charged. 
Had his bail review last week: $75,000. 
Former Officer of the Year for the South Carolina State Police.  Future convict.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on September 28, 2014, 10:51:38 AM
I hear he pleads not guilty.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 28, 2014, 10:51:38 AM
I hear he pleads not guilty.

He can plead all he wants, he's going to go to jail. 

"Why'd you shoot me?"
"You dove headfirst into your car."  Sorry, not a reason to use lethal force, dumbass.

Also, notice how the suspect victim actually apologizes to the officer that shot him, refers to him as "sir", etc.?

Maybe it'll help dispel the derspiessian notion that every black man is some sort of menacing Mandingo copkillin' nigger that needs to be shot  in an encounter with police because he's about to kick off this Nat Turner party and start some murder up in this motherfucker on the way to the convenience store to rape some white women.

But it won't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:28:49 AM
It's not a shooting, but here's a clip from my old crew that's been on all the news lately:

http://youtu.be/kP_TtBPpIRM

Greenmount and North, LOL, good times.

Now, as bad as the black officer acts in laying all those haymakers, neither of the two white officers did anything during or after:  Internal Affairs didn't know about this incident until the guy's lawyers forwarded this video to them, and while they began an investigation, they didn't bring it to the Commissioner's attention--until it hit the evening news.

And you'll see one white officer--the one with the black hair--has orange tabs on his epaulettes: they have little sergeant pins on them, and that means he's the OD;  since there was no sergeant on duty in that sector that evening, he was the one in charge that night.  And didn't do a goddamned thing about it.

And yet people still ask me why I quit. Officers like that will get you fired, hurt or worse.  Fuck that. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on September 28, 2014, 11:36:31 AM
Why did you quit?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:37:39 AM
I was overqualified.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on September 28, 2014, 12:34:26 PM
Your 29 inch waist? :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 12:38:03 PM
Now you're getting nasty. 

Go fuck up a different thread, Leon Trollsky.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 08:24:47 AM
https://gma.yahoo.com/unrest-st-louis-police-officer-shoots-kills-man-061859179--abc-news-topstories.html

QuoteUnrest in St. Louis After Police Officer Shoots, Kills Man

The fatal shooting of an 18-year-old black man in south St. Louis by an off-duty police officer sparked a night of unrest in a city still reeling from the August slaying of an unarmed man in nearby Ferguson.

Wednesday's shooting happened at about 7:30 p.m. in the city's Shaw Neighborhood, and involved an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company, Police Chief Sam Dotson said at an early-morning news conference.

The officer approached a group of men. One of the men took off running, Dotson said, so the officer pursued. Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

The officer, who was not injured, returned fire, shooting 17 times and fatally wounding the man, Dotson said.

A gun was recovered at the scene. The officer was placed on administrative leave, as per department policy, police said.

Police have not identified the officer or the man he killed.

The incident comes nearly two months to the day after the police shooting of Michael Brown, 18, in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, located about 20 miles away. Brown's shooting sparked weeks of protests and spawned national discourse about police use of force.

Some of the people protesting recently in Ferguson were seen in St. Louis after Wednesday's shooting, Dotson said.

"Tensions in the region are very high," Dotson said. "Any police officer use of force certainly will draw attention."

St. Louis Alderman Antonio French, who documented the turmoil in Ferguson after Brown's Aug. 9 shooting death, reflected on the region's renewed anguish.

"At the scene of yet another young man's death," he wrote on Twitter. "This happens too often in our city. It's a crisis that we should all be concerned about."

Activists took to the streets of St. Louis overnight, marching and chanting, seeking answers.

Some police vehicles were damaged during the protests, with windows smashed, Dotson said.

People also shared their frustration on social media, with #shawshooting the most popular national trending topic on Twitter.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 08:54:15 AM
HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT (even if I shoot at you first)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 09:04:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 08:24:47 AM
https://gma.yahoo.com/unrest-st-louis-police-officer-shoots-kills-man-061859179--abc-news-topstories.html

QuoteUnrest in St. Louis After Police Officer Shoots, Kills Man

The fatal shooting of an 18-year-old black man in south St. Louis by an off-duty police officer sparked a night of unrest in a city still reeling from the August slaying of an unarmed man in nearby Ferguson.

Wednesday's shooting happened at about 7:30 p.m. in the city's Shaw Neighborhood, and involved an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company, Police Chief Sam Dotson said at an early-morning news conference.

The officer approached a group of men. One of the men took off running, Dotson said, so the officer pursued. Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

The officer, who was not injured, returned fire, shooting 17 times and fatally wounding the man, Dotson said.

A gun was recovered at the scene. The officer was placed on administrative leave, as per department policy, police said.

Police have not identified the officer or the man he killed.

The incident comes nearly two months to the day after the police shooting of Michael Brown, 18, in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, located about 20 miles away. Brown's shooting sparked weeks of protests and spawned national discourse about police use of force.

Some of the people protesting recently in Ferguson were seen in St. Louis after Wednesday's shooting, Dotson said.

"Tensions in the region are very high," Dotson said. "Any police officer use of force certainly will draw attention."

St. Louis Alderman Antonio French, who documented the turmoil in Ferguson after Brown's Aug. 9 shooting death, reflected on the region's renewed anguish.

"At the scene of yet another young man's death," he wrote on Twitter. "This happens too often in our city. It's a crisis that we should all be concerned about."

Activists took to the streets of St. Louis overnight, marching and chanting, seeking answers.

Some police vehicles were damaged during the protests, with windows smashed, Dotson said.

People also shared their frustration on social media, with #shawshooting the most popular national trending topic on Twitter.
Couldn't he just shoot the gun out of his hand?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:06:49 AM
The only question I really have is whether or not he needed 17 bullets to make sure the shooter died. Seems wasteful.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 09, 2014, 09:16:09 AM
Considering cop pistol accuracy, they needed 17 rounds to get a few hits.

MAH DOUGHNUTS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on October 09, 2014, 09:18:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:06:49 AM
The only question I really have is whether or not he needed 17 bullets to make sure the shooter died. Seems wasteful.
That's a waste he can probably live with, given the potentially fatal consequences of only using 16 and then having the perp then kill him.  No rentacop ever won the war on crime by dying for his stupidity; he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his stupidity.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:20:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:06:49 AM
The only question I really have is whether or not he needed 17 bullets to make sure the shooter died. Seems wasteful.

Plenty of room in the budget to cover that.  They burn through way more than that at the range.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on October 09, 2014, 09:27:36 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 08:54:15 AM
HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT (even if I shoot at you first)

God you are loathsome.  Seriously why embrace being a horrible human being to this extent?  What do you get out of it?  Do the deaths of American Citizens fill you with glee for some reason?

Anyway obviously if you shoot at the cops you are going to be shot.  It is a consequence of the unwarranted shootings of Black Men that this justified one is now a touchstone.  This is why you be really careful about training police when to shoot, their legitimacy with the American people is being undermined.

QuoteCouldn't he just shoot the gun out of his hand?

Yuck yuck.  I love seeing the fabric of our society being underminded.  Go to hell.

Seriously I do not get the humor here.  Maybe to you guys dead American Citizens and Cops is funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2014, 09:27:36 AM
God you are loathsome.  Seriously why embrace being a horrible human being to this extent?  What do you get out of it?  Do the deaths of American Citizens fill you with glee for some reason?

There you go again.  I was mocking the street protests that sprang up over this most recent shooting, not the shooting itself.  Had it not been for these silly protests, I wouldn't have bothered to comment.

QuoteAnyway obviously if you shoot at the cops you are going to be shot.  It is a consequence of the unwarranted shootings of Black Men that this justified one is now a touchstone.  This is why you be really careful about training police when to shoot, their legitimacy with the American people is being undermined.

Ah, so you're buying into the "evil white cops are hunting down innocent defenseless black teens" narrative?  Really?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:37:12 AM
Ah, so you're buying into the "evil white cops are hunting down innocent defenseless black teens" narrative?  Really?

Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

That reminds me, the one recent bit on SNL I liked involved the white guy speaking about how black people can say all sorts of stuff while white people are rather hemmed in. The black guy (who is just generally awful and should be replaced already) said actually one key thing we can never say is "Thank you, officer, for your help." :D :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on October 09, 2014, 09:49:23 AM
Quotean officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company

Cop pay is that bad, huh?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 09, 2014, 09:51:12 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 09, 2014, 09:49:23 AM
Quotean officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company

Cop pay is that bad, huh?

Not usually, but cops with extra time on their hands can make some bank working security gigs.  Some departments, like the one in my hometown, actually let them work private details in-uniform, though I believe the department gets a cut of the fee in that case.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 10:03:42 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??

You should leave analogies to Marti, yeah?

But as you know I would say, no I don't think that is the same at all. Gays don't really have a job to serve as protection for citizenry - so you can't really draw and equivalent of the issue of how can people tasked with the job of helping one group be useful if the group they are assigned to help is afraid of them and what they might do to that group.  You might find an easy comparison if you wanted to discuss priests and pedophilia.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:16:32 AM
No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 10:18:06 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:16:32 AM
No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles

Well I guess we have nothing further to talk about. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.


I think you are right.

The problem that police DO have, however is:

1. Some of them are scumbags.
2. They have a rather tough situation to deal with in regards to the statistics around who commits crimes by race - trying to balance that reality with the perception (in the best case) that blacks are unfairly targetted, and the reality that in some cases some police officers who are not "scumbags" probably do fall into the mistake of over-aggressively policing blacks out of proportion to the reality of their greater involvement statstically in crime.
3. The "thin blue line" mentality where the good cops actually protect the bad ones, which makes the good ones look just as bad as the scumbags.
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:36:35 AM
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 10:37:47 AM
QuoteThe officer approached a group of men.

Why?

QuoteOne of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

Quoteso the officer pursued.

Why?

QuoteDotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

Very little, actually.

In fact, I would guess that the set of officers who are the "good guys" has a higher percentage of ex-military than the set of scumbags.

And I think the militarization culture is actually not at all driven by the actual military. More the civilians cop mentality and the rise of SWAT and "special forces" type policing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 10:37:47 AM
QuoteThe officer approached a group of men.

Why?

QuoteOne of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

Quoteso the officer pursued.

Why?

QuoteDotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.

Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 10:54:40 AM
Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 10:54:40 AM
It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.
Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 11:05:43 AM
Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:58:57 AM
Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.

It varies a bit from town to town and neighborhood to neighborhood.  My kids get excited when they see all the police vehicles downtown, because they never see any in our own neighborhood.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
City police may well be different. I had mostly only dealt with RCMP.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:09:26 AM
Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
City police may well be different. I had mostly only dealt with RCMP.

True - in Toronto, the only time we ever saw the RCMP was when they did that musical ride thing at the royal fair.  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 11:11:04 AM
Actually now that I think about it, the Saskatoon Police had also had a scandal maybe 10-12 years ago where they would take drunks outside of the city and let them walk back. These drunks were mostly natives and some of them apparently froze to death out there.

So maybe it's just an RCMP thing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Yeah, stories like that could be found everywhere across Canada - I heard them about the Sûreté du Québec when I lived in Ottawa, and I heard it about the VPD in Vancouver. It is my impression that there's less of it now, after concerted efforts to clean it up, but that before that it was endemic. And yeah, it usually targeted marginal groups - gays, natives, the homeless et. al.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on October 09, 2014, 11:14:42 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Are you sure it isn't more to do with the changes in your own life during the time - as a kid you probably had reasons to be somewhat fearful of police, whereas now you do not?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on October 09, 2014, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Last year, some colleagues went on a company trip to Toronto. They had two run ins with the police.

1: walking around the harbor they saw a police speed boat. They asked the officer how fast it went, and kept badgering him until he took them for a spin of the harbor, saying, "Anyone asks, you're from Austrian police."

2: Three of our girls were waiting in front of a bar at night for their pick up. A police car kept cruising the parking lot keeping an eye on the suspicious ladies. Eventually they pulled up close and asked their business. They explained and the talked the police officer into posing with them, putting one of them in handcuffs and having her draped suggestively around him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

At our agency, we started seeing it as early as 2004 prior to the stop gap policies, and by 2007 they were applying--and we were accepting them--in droves.  And while our agency liked to see a lot of diversity, there were other agencies that wanted entire academy classes to look like they just stepped off Parris Island.

It was always a magnet, but it's only gotten worse.  But I'll defer to Berkut's experience in police recruiting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

Hopefully we'll find out.  I get the feeling you already have your mind made up, though.

QuoteThere's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

Sure.  Vonderrit still shot first.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on October 09, 2014, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

An individual running from approaching police is highly suspicious behaviour, and is grounds to detain a person to determine if a crime is being committed...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:00:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 11:52:52 AM
Hopefully we'll find out.  I get the feeling you already have your mind made up, though.

Not at all.  I want to know what happened, and not just be satisfied with the end result like you, which is one less black man in this world.

QuoteThere's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

QuoteSure.  Vonderrit still shot first.

One of these days, maybe they'll get you to shoot first, too.



Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:05:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 09, 2014, 11:55:11 AM
An individual running from approaching police is highly suspicious behaviour,

Was he moonlighting in uniform?  Most don't.   Did he announce himself as a police officer, or did he just look the part of security guard?  Plenty of people run from security guards all the time.

Quoteand is grounds to detain a person to determine if a crime is being committed...

Good thing you stay up in God's Country, where you only have to worry about the same three drunken Indians every week.   You'd be pretty fucking busy down here, jacking up every black guy trying to catch a bus.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on October 09, 2014, 12:14:46 PM
Quote
NY Cop Knocked Teen Out for Smoking: Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL-wqpy56tI

(Newser) – Marcel Hamer was walking home from school on the afternoon of June 4, smoking a cigarette, when a plainclothes police officer got out of his car and accused the now-17-year-old of smoking pot. A video of the Brooklyn incident picks up when Marcel is already on the ground, the officer apparently trying to handcuff him as the teen pleads, "Mister, it was just a cigarette, sir." As Marcel's friends protest from the sidelines—"Do you wanna get f---ed up?" the cop asks one at one point, then "Yeah, get it on film"—the officer appears to punch Marcel in the face, knocking him out, the Brooklyn Paper reports. The cop continues to order Marcel to "turn around," but the teen is apparently unconscious, and his friends start pleading with him to "wake up" while telling the cop, "You knocked him out." Eventually, another man—apparently a second undercover cop—helps handcuff Marcel as he lies unmoving on the street.

The teen's family says the officer hit him so hard he now has neurological problems, including headaches, dizziness, and memory loss. Lawyers for Marcel say that though the officer suspected him of smoking marijuana, he was only charged with disorderly conduct, New York reports; it's not clear what transpired between the officer and Marcel before the friend started recording, but Marcel's family is calling for the cop to be prosecuted. The family has also filed notice of a $5 million claim against the city, alleging excessive force, ABC 7 reports. The NYPD says the incident is under investigation. The video was released the same day as another one showing Brooklyn cops pistol-whipping an unarmed 16-year-old who had his hands in the air; he was ultimately arrested for marijuana possession, DNAinfo reports. Also yesterday, a video surfaced of another Brooklyn cop apparently taking $1,300 from a man during a stop-and-frisk, then pepper-spraying him when he demanded it back, the New York Daily News reports; that incident is also under investigation. (Meanwhile, in St. Louis, an off-duty cop shot a teen to death last night.)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:17:16 PM
Hamer smoked first.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on October 09, 2014, 12:19:25 PM
Bubba was pissed he had to run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfL2oozQbc
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:00:44 PM
and not just be satisfied with the end result like you, which is one less black man in this world.

That's your thang, not mine, CountDeKermitGosnell.  As in the Michael Brown shooting, I'm withholding judgment on the cop until we know all the facts.

Quote
One of these days, maybe they'll get you to shoot first, too.

Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.

Don't make me search the gun thread for your statements about "defending your family" during a forced entry warrant execution, Wayne.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.

Don't make me search the gun thread for your statements about "defending your family" during a forced entry warrant execution, Wayne.

That's a bit different from assaulting a cop in an alley and then shooting at him, innit?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
That's a bit different from assaulting a cop in an alley and then shooting at him, innit?

If they kill you as a result, I'm not sure how much you and your family would care about those differences.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:31:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Oddly, I don't see myself being made to shoot at a cop, CountDeMumia.

Don't make me search the gun thread for your statements about "defending your family" during a forced entry warrant execution, Wayne.

That's a bit different from assaulting a cop in an alley and then shooting at him, innit?

No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:31:12 PM
No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.

That's uncalled for.  I'm not nearly as race-conscious as you & Seedy apparently are.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:32:58 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:31:12 PM
No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.

That's uncalled for.  I'm not nearly as race-conscious as you & Seedy apparently are.

The fuck you aren't.  And it's all three of me, don't sell me short.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:31:12 PM
No.  But you're white and he was black, and that's how your math works.

That's uncalled for.  I'm not nearly as race-conscious as you & Seedy apparently are.

... wait... CountDeMoney and Seedy are two different posters? :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:34:27 PM
 :blush: Thought I was responding to you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2014, 12:35:21 PM
It's nearly impossible to be as race-conscious as the three of you.

This is addressed to Seedy, but Jacob and Speiss can ponder whether it should apply to them as well.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 09, 2014, 11:14:42 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Are you sure it isn't more to do with the changes in your own life during the time - as a kid you probably had reasons to be somewhat fearful of police, whereas now you do not?

That must be nice. I'll likely always have a reason to be fearful.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 12:42:00 PM
I'm not at all race-conscious.  When I look at people, I don't see white people or black people.  I make sure to only go to places where I can see white people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2014, 12:45:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 12:42:00 PM
I'm not at all race-conscious.  When I look at people, I don't see white people or black people.  I make sure to only go to places where I can see white people.

Do you manage to pass?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 12:42:00 PM
I'm not at all race-conscious.  When I look at people, I don't see white people or black people.  I make sure to only go to places where I can see white people.

I get the joke but I think you need to workshop it more.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2014, 12:46:56 PM
 :( Yeah, execution sucked on that one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 12:52:56 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 09, 2014, 12:35:21 PM
It's nearly impossible to be as race-conscious as the three of you.

At least I'm willing to admit this nation has race issues that are integral to and unavoidable in our society, one that affects virtually every aspect of daily life, and we are absolutely no closer to dealing with it successfully now than we were in 1865 or 1965.
Saying it doesn't exist or saying it's "better", and not addressing it directly, is a bullshit cop-out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
If it was the case that we were no better off now that in 1865, then I guess it is pretty hopeless to even bother trying.

Of course, that isn't the case at all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:34:27 PM
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 09, 2014, 01:01:41 PM
If you had commented "But you're white and he's black and that's how your math works" it would make more sense. ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2014, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:34:27 PM
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?

The quoted post he replied to, he thought you were the author.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:34:27 PM
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?

I was confused and thought you had written the post that Seedy wrote.  I hereby retract any previous allegations of race-consciousness as far as you are concerned  :pope:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 12:34:27 PM
:blush: Thought I was responding to you.

How did anything I said reflect race consciousness?

I said whether you were shot dead because you ran away from the cops and then were alleged to shoot at them first, or whether you were shot dead because they busted through your door unannounced (but with a warrant) and you shot at them, it wouldn't matter much to you (you'd be dead) or those who care about you (you'd be dead).

Where's the race consciousness in that?

I was confused and thought you had wrote the post that Seedy wrote.  I hereby retract any previous allegations of race-consciousness as far as you are concerned  :pope:

:hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 02:16:21 PM
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 02:49:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
If it was the case that we were no better off now that in 1865, then I guess it is pretty hopeless to even bother trying.

Of course, that isn't the case at all.

Yeah, let's sit on our laurels.  After all, they can vote now and they got a President, so what's their problem?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 02:57:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 02:49:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
If it was the case that we were no better off now that in 1865, then I guess it is pretty hopeless to even bother trying.

Of course, that isn't the case at all.

Yeah, let's sit on our laurels.  After all, they can vote now and they got a President, so what's their problem?

Do you even have any idea how silly you sound?

If in fact we had made no progress since 1865, then we should sit on our laurels - hell, if the effect of 160 years of trying is "no better now than then" then we should probably conclude it is hopeless.

This is YOUR argument, not mine.

The reality is of course that we have made incredible progress, which suggests that we should *continue* to work, since progress is being made. Your argument, in your fanatical desire to make everything binary, is actually arguing against your own supposed desires.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 02:16:21 PM
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.

NLCS, BABY!!!  :punk:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 02:16:21 PM
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.

Definitely. Time to reassess your assumptions and reasoning.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 09, 2014, 06:01:50 PM
I side with Spicy and Raz also. Go cops!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 11:19:48 PM
My idiot brother drove up to St. Louis for some reason.  He just called on his cell to ask why they street is blocked off and every one is rioting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 11:22:05 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 02:16:21 PM
There is something seriously wrong when I start siding with Derspeiss.

Definitely. Time to reassess your assumptions and reasoning.

Well I should clarify and say I don't think Derspeiss should be shooting at cops from his house either.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 11:48:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 02:57:07 PM
Do you even have any idea how silly you sound?

If in fact we had made no progress since 1865, then we should sit on our laurels - hell, if the effect of 160 years of trying is "no better now than then" then we should probably conclude it is hopeless.

This is YOUR argument, not mine.

The reality is of course that we have made incredible progress, which suggests that we should *continue* to work, since progress is being made. Your argument, in your fanatical desire to make everything binary, is actually arguing against your own supposed desires.

Incredible progress.  At every turn, there has been nothing but consistent political, legal, economic and even violent push-back against progress.  Free the slaves?  Enter the Klan.  The Reconstruction amendments?  Pass Jim Crow laws.  Brown v Board of Education? School integration at the point of a  bayonet.  The US Department of Justice monitoring elections in the South and other areas for 50 years, our own country, like some sort of 3rd world shit hole. 

And now, TODAY, where the color of authority is still killing black men in obscenely disproportionate numbers.  Where states are making concrete, specific efforts to restricting the ability to vote, knowing full well who it's going to hit the hardest.  Where every possible attempt is being made to eliminate the safety net when the economic playing field still isn't even.  All this time, it's been a constant list of bullshit terms veiling true intentions.  "States' Rights."  "Separate But Equal."  "Welfare Fraud."  "Voter Fraud."  "Stand Your Ground."  It's always new code words masking the same racism, trying to force our society one step back for every two steps forward. 

Yesterday's jars of jelly beans are today's photo IDs. They're not drinking from separate water fountains, but there are active attempts to make sure they're being boxed into their own districts, like the one tossed out in Virginia. THIS FUCKING WEEK. 

If we've made such incredible progress as a society, why are we dealing with the same variations on a theme, over and over?  The same attempts from different angles, with different tactics?  Our society hasn't progressed as much as you think it has.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on October 10, 2014, 12:06:48 AM
Well, we are at least making progress with you - we've gone from none at all to not as much as you think it has.

So that is something.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:08:57 AM
Stop being that white guy that rates "On a scale of 1 to 10, have race relations improved in America" as an 8.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:09:06 AM
It has progressed more than you are stating though, Seeds. While certainly there are still many fundamental things that need fixing, there has been progress. Like Berkut said, if we hadn't made any headway by now then we might as well give into the inevitability and give up.

I'd say that when I think about my life and the lives of other black people in my generation that I know - our lives are very different from what they would have been if we've all been born just two decades earlier.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:12:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:09:06 AM
I'd say that when I think about my life and the lives of other black people in my generation that I know - our lives are very different from what they would have been if we've all been born just two decades earlier.

But I'm sure there's quite a few garbons somewhere in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and in plenty of inner cities elsewhere right now that would disagree with you.  And that's the unfortunate part.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:12:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:09:06 AM
I'd say that when I think about my life and the lives of other black people in my generation that I know - our lives are very different from what they would have been if we've all been born just two decades earlier.

But I'm sure there's quite a few garbons somewhere in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and in plenty of inner cities elsewhere right now that would disagree with you.  And that's the unfortunate part.

Oh agreed. But Berkut is right to point out that we can't look at them and say no progress has been made. If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?

When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
But who is saying the work is done? :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:43:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
But who is saying the work is done? :huh:

Apparently a substantial number of your fellow countrymen.  Voting Rights Act?  No longer necessary.  Affirmative Action? It's served its purpose.  Fair Housing Act?  Time to kill it.

There are plenty out there who think the Civil Rights movement is over.  And they're winning elections, crafting laws, sitting on court benches.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:53:13 AM
I meant as in who here - in how Berkut inspired your ire but certainly wasn't saying that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 01:58:25 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Can black people keep on locking their car doors in the hood?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 06:36:02 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?

When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Good news, now the car does it automatically.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:26:04 AM
I lock the door when I see a skeev of any color.

I am better than you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2014, 11:22:05 PM
Well I should clarify and say I don't think Derspeiss should be shooting at cops from his house either.

I think we're of the same mind on that as well.  I can't imagine a situation where I'm leaning out of the bedroom window taking potshots at cops :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Do you do that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 10, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 10, 2014, 06:36:02 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
If we really haven't made any meaningful progress since 1865, why bother trying now?

When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Good news, now the car does it automatically.
How does it detect black people?  :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 08:32:55 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:26:04 AM
I lock the door when I see a skeev of any color.

I am better than you.

Not sure how this follows unless you are saying everyone is a skeev.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:33:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 08:32:55 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:26:04 AM
I lock the door when I see a skeev of any color.

I am better than you.

Not sure how this follows unless you are saying everyone is a skeev.

They are.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:36:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:33:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:

I am withholding the obvious racist joke since Grab is in the thread.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: HVC on October 10, 2014, 08:37:47 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:36:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:33:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:

I am withholding the obvious racist joke since Grab is in the thread.
he self identifies as Indian :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:37:58 AM
I can't think of anything obvious.  HEY THAT MEANS IM NOT RACISS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:41:06 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:37:58 AM
I can't think of anything obvious.  HEY THAT MEANS IM NOT RACISS

Fuck it.

WATERMELON
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 09:01:12 AM
:lol:  Oh, that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 09:09:27 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 10, 2014, 08:37:47 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 10, 2014, 08:36:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:33:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
How does it detect black people?  :huh:

Blackdar :contract:

I am withholding the obvious racist joke since Grab is in the thread.
he self identifies as Indian :P

That was several identities ago. At this point, with the facial hair I've got, I'm probably a terrorist. :weep:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 10, 2014, 12:15:00 PM
Oh, man.  I thought you were opposed to facial hair.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:18:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 01:58:25 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Can black people keep on locking their car doors in the hood?

It's not going to save their windows.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:18:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Do you do that?

Why should I?  I drive a stick shift.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:25:45 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:18:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:26 AM
When the last white person no longer feels the need to lock the car doors at an intersection with a black man on the corner at night, then the work will be done.

Do you do that?

Why should I?  I drive a stick shift.

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2014, 12:15:00 PM
Oh, man.  I thought you were opposed to facial hair.

Maybe he's auditioning for Samir in Office Space 2.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:25:45 PM
:huh:

Never came across a carjacker that could drive a stick.  Had one once but it was a short chase, since he couldn't get out of 2nd.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:35:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:29:41 PM
Never came across a carjacker that could drive a stick.  Had one once but it was a short chase, since he couldn't get out of 2nd.

:lol: I never thought of that before.  I guess I can consider that a security feature on my Camry.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 12:35:43 PM
:lol: I never thought of that before.  I guess I can consider that a security feature on my Camry.

Most definitely.  A better deterrent than a steering wheel lock.   :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:37:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2014, 12:15:00 PM
Oh, man.  I thought you were opposed to facial hair.

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 02:46:49 PM
Are you hoping for 20 acres and half a mule?  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 10, 2014, 02:46:49 PM
Are you hoping for 20 acres and half a mule?  :P

One drop, baby, one drop! :yeah:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

KILL WHITEY
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:58:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

KILL WHITEY

Well that's a little extreme.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:59:58 PM
Might as well distill that project down to its intent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 03:01:36 PM
How so?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:06:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:58:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
KILL WHITEY

Well that's a little extreme.

And incorrect, but hey, it's derweiß we're talking about here.  :pointyhood:

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

Did you notice the "About" page?

Technical staff:

QuoteFOR POV
Adnaan Wasey - Executive Producer for POV Digital
Simon Kilmurry - Executive Producer for POV
Emma Dessau - Web Producer
Sayeh Gorjifard - Intern
Shako Liu - Intern
Chaska Rojas-Bottger - Intern

Whitey, still reaping the fruits of minority labor.   :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 03:22:18 PM
I looked at some page about it. Mix of white, Indian and Asian folk.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:28:47 PM
When I was contracting with the federal government, two things caught my attention:

1.  The noticeable lack of individuals of Arab or Middle Eastern decent
2.  The tremendous abundance of Russians in IT and Scientific Computing

Just goes to show what a good, ol' fashioned 9/11 can do for rebalancing of the "Who's Scary Now?" demographics.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:06:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:58:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
KILL WHITEY

Well that's a little extreme.

And incorrect, but hey, it's derweiß we're talking about here.  :pointyhood:

It's set up to make white people look silly & clueless, is it not?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
It's set up to make white people look silly & clueless, is it not?

No, it is not.

The fact that white people look silly and clueless when it comes to discussing race...well, that's why we need to discuss race, now don't we?

Here, pick out which one you are:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/g65t3j/the-r-word

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 03:53:08 PM
That's some retarded shit, sir.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 03:54:22 PM
"Black people aren't interested in my job. Well, they should be, because I work in Fashion."  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
It's set up to make white people look silly & clueless, is it not?

No, it is not.

The fact that white people look silly and clueless when it comes to discussing race...well, that's why we need to discuss race, now don't we?

Here, pick out which one you are:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/g65t3j/the-r-word



Sorry but that didn't work well at all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
The fact that white people look silly and clueless when it comes to discussing race...well, that's why we need to discuss race, now don't we?

NATION OF COWARDS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 05:00:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 03:53:08 PM
That's some retarded shit, sir.

Talking about racism only exacerbates the problem!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on October 10, 2014, 05:04:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/ (http://www.whitenessproject.org/)

KILL WHITEY

Sadly I think this the typical view point of conservatives, that blacks are just waiting for the time when they can kill whites.  That's why Obama is so alarming to them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 05:36:47 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 05:00:17 PM
Talking about racism only exacerbates the problem!

That's not true, and that's not why the sketch is retarded.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 05:43:21 PM
Samantha Bee and the girl who made the Fashion comment I quoted appeared to be the only ones who knew they were doing a comedy sketch.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2014, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 10, 2014, 05:43:21 PM
Samantha Bee and the girl who made the Fashion comment I quoted appeared to be the only ones who knew they were doing a comedy sketch.

The brother with the swollen eye was pretty good.  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on October 10, 2014, 05:55:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OfXVSSQQg
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:11:13 PM
Quote from: sbr on October 10, 2014, 05:55:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OfXVSSQQg

When I saw that, I thought it was another sign of how bad SNL is in general. Sort of good ideas that aren't ever fully developed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 10, 2014, 06:15:02 PM
Kind of surprised SNL is still on. Other than the Palin sketches and a couple with Andy Samberg, haven't seen much funny stuff from them in 15 years.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:40:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

i don't get it
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:43:55 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:40:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

i don't get it

ok?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:44:56 PM
what's its point?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:46:22 PM
ABOUT THE PROJECT

The Whiteness Project is a multiplatform investigation into how Americans who identify as "white" experience their ethnicity.

The project is conducting 1,000 interviews with white people from all walks of life and localities in which they are asked about their relationship to, and their understanding of, their own whiteness. It also includes data drawn from a variety of sources that highlights some quantitative aspects of what it means to be a white American.

This first installment, "Inside the White/Caucasian Box," is a collection of 24 interviews filmed in Buffalo, NY in July 2014. Further installments will be posted in the months to come. To comment, or ask a question, please visit the project's Facebook page.

ARTISTIC STATEMENT

While many media projects have investigated the history, culture, and experiences of various American ethnic minorities, there has been much less examination of how white Americans think about and experience their whiteness and how white culture shapes our society. Most people take for granted that there is a "white" race in America, but rarely is the concept of whiteness itself investigated. What does it mean to be a "white"? Can it be genetically defined? Is it a cultural construct? A state of mind? How does one come to be deemed "white" in America and what privileges does being perceived as white bestow? The Whiteness Project is a multi-platform media project that examines both the concept of whiteness itself and how those who identify as "white" process their ethnic identity. The project's goal is to engender debate about the role of whiteness in American society and encourage white Americans to become fully vested participants in the ongoing debate about the role of race in American society.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:52:37 PM
a lot of non-whites don't (edit:) substantially think about race either, though. why is there a need for additional participation "in the ongoing debate about the role of race in American society"?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on October 10, 2014, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:52:37 PM
a lot of non-whites don't (edit:) substantially think about race either, though. why is there a need for additional participation "in the ongoing debate about the role of race in American society"?
Apparently "whiteness" is an ethnicity now. Who knew?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 10, 2014, 08:29:00 PM
What a douche.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/nyregion/man-accuses-officer-of-taking-more-than-1000-video-prompts-investigation.html

QuoteVideo of Officer Accused of Theft Prompts Inquiry

By STEPHANIE CLIFFORD
October 8, 2014

Lamard Joye was celebrating his 35th birthday with friends last month near a basketball court in Coney Island, Brooklyn. At some point, the police arrived and stopped a friend of his.

From several feet away, Mr. Joye objected. What happened next is now under investigation by the Brooklyn district attorney's office, which is in possession of a cellphone video of the ensuing confrontation.

The video of the encounter, on Sept. 16 at around 12:20 a.m., shows a police officer steering Mr. Joye against a chain-link fence to pat him down. "Look," Mr. Joye says. "Look, you see this? Look." The police officer reaches into Mr. Joye's pocket, removes what appears to be a folded stack of bills and steps back.

"Give me my money," Mr. Joye says in the video. The police officer then sprays something at him.

Mr. Joye said the officer took more than $1,000 in cash and deployed pepper spray.

In the video, others in the crowd begin protesting. "He just stole his money," says a voice close to the phone's microphone. "How you going to take his money?" someone else says.

Mr. Joye, who was not arrested that night, said he has not gotten his money back; his lawyer, Robert Marinelli, said he has received no explanation of where that money was.

The Brooklyn district attorney, Kenneth P. Thompson, said his office was "aware of the alleged incident and it is being actively and thoroughly investigated."

The officer's identity is not known. The New York Police Department said in a statement:

"The incident was precipitated by a call of a man with a gun. When officers arrived at the scene, they encountered numerous people at the location. As a result of the allegations, the matter is under investigation by the Internal Affairs Bureau and CCRB," referring to the Civilian Complaint Review Board.

Mr. Marinelli said he has submitted pay and bank records to the district attorney showing his client, who works in construction, had earned a few thousand dollars in early September and had withdrawn a couple of thousand dollars, intending to celebrate his birthday with his wife.

"I believe that this officer made an assumption that any money Mr. Joye possessed was obtained illegally and therefore he would not report the theft," Mr. Marinelli said. "This assumption was wrong. Mr. Joye is a hardworking taxpayer. An incident like this would never occur in a more affluent section of the city."

The video is one of several taped police encounters that have been publicized since Eric Garner of Staten Island died in July after a confrontation with police that was recorded on video.

The video of Mr. Joye's encounter concludes with his sister, Lateefah Joye, confronting the police officer who patted down her brother.

"What's your name?" she says to the officer, her face a few inches from his. "Say your name."

"It's right there," the officer replies.

"I see it," she says. At that point, the officer sprays something at her.

"I'm not touching you," she says. The officer uses the spray again as the video ends.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 10, 2014, 10:27:46 PM
Still think that project is a parody of some sort.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 13, 2014, 03:44:05 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/13/cornel-west-arrested-ferguson-protests/17205907/

QuoteClergy arrested in 'Ferguson October' march

Police arrested clergy members and prominent activist and academic Cornel West on Monday as they led hundreds of protesters in a march to the police station to draw attention to police shootings nationwide.

The protests Monday were the culmination of "Ferguson October" -- four days of activism and civil disobedience sparked by the killing of Michael Brown, an unarmed, 18-year-old black man, by a white police officer on Aug. 9 in the St. Louis suburb.

"Moral Monday," as the activists called it, began Monday morning at Wellspring Church in Ferguson. The demonstrators walked two blocks to the police station in heavy rain as leaders with bullhorns read the names of people killed by police nationwide, including Venderrit Myers, Jr, 18, killed last Wednesday by a white police officer in St. Louis. Police say Myers, who is black, shot first.

At the police station, where about 40 police officers in riot gear formed a protective line between marchers and the police station, three activists drew a chalk outline of a man lying on the ground. March organizer Rev. Osagyefo Sekou called it "a memorial for the body of Michael Brown."

"This space has already been sanctified by the youth and we just want to honor what they've done," Sekou said.

Clergy members then faced the police officers and demanded they confess their sins and repent. "Our children, our black children, are being killed. Would you repent?," one woman asked an officer who turned his face away from her.

"We are saying that these officers are members of our society and that they are part of a racist and sinful system," Sekou said. "We are offering them the opportunity to repent and to be reconciled into our community."

As the crowd knelt and prayed before the police, West and Sekou crossed the police line. Police handcuffed both men and put them in a police vehicle. Police arrested at least 12 others.

West told a crowd gathered at an interfaith event on Sunday night that he wanted police to arrest him.

"I didn't come here to give a speech," West said. "I came here to go to jail!"

Protesters clapped as police arrested the men.

"They are doing it for a cause and the cause is a great cause," said Doug Hollis, a cousin of both Michael Brown and Vonderrit Myers. "We are going to keep going strong."

Elsewhere in Ferguson, a coalition of labor and community members blocked the street in front of the headquarters of Emerson Electric,a Fortune 500 company that manufactures power equipment and employs more than 100,000 people worldwide.

"We are calling attention to the economic injustice we live with in Ferguson," said Jermaine Arms of Show Me $5, a labor rights group. "Justice for Mike Brown means justice for all of us. This should be a moment where we all take responsibility for the conditions that his death exposed."

On Friday, protesters marched to the St. Louis County prosecutor's office where they called on prosecutor Bob McCulloch to charge Darren Wilson, the officer who shot Brown. Wilson's case is before the grand jury.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 18, 2014, 09:18:23 PM
QuoteAuthorities say Michael Brown's blood found on gun, inside police car
By Sari Horwitz October 18 at 8:07 PM
Washington Post

Forensic evidence shows Michael Brown's blood on the gun, uniform and inside the car of Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, law enforcement officials said, information they believe potentially corroborates the officer's story that the unarmed 18-year-old tried to take his gun.

The evidence will make it harder for the Justice Department to prosecute Officer Darren Wilson on federal charges that he violated Brown's civil rights, said the officials, who asked their names be withheld because of the sensitivity of the case.

Such evidence would also make it difficult for a county grand jury to indict Wilson on state charges, such as murder or manslaughter, said county sources who also are prohibited from talking on the record about the pending case.

The St. Louis County police, the FBI and a county grand jury are investigating the shooting. The Justice Department is investigating Ferguson and St. Louis County policing practices and whether they have violated the rights of residents.

Justice Department spokeswoman Dena Iverson declined to comment.

Wilson, who is white, fatally shot Brown, an African American, on Aug. 9 in the majority black St. Louis suburb of Ferguson.

The three-minute encounter on a sunny Saturday afternoon has rocked the metro area, which remains on edge as it faces continued protests and waits for the grand jury to decide whether Wilson should face any charges in Brown's death.

The New York Times first reported the forensic evidence Friday, citing "government officials briefed on the federal civil rights investigation."

Officials who spoke to The Washington Post on Saturday said the forensic evidence supports Wilson's account that a scuffle occurred at the police vehicle, that Wilson feared for his life and that Brown went for, or lunged for, his gun. There were two shots fired in the vehicle, including one that hit Brown's arm, an official said.

Wilson, who has not spoken publicly since the shooting, testified before the grand jury last month. His lawyer, James P. Towey Jr., did not return a call seeking comment Saturday.

Benjamin L. Crump, a lawyer for Brown's family, could also not be reached for comment.

He told the Times, however, that Wilson's word isn't "gospel" and that he should be indicted and go to trial.

"The officer's going to say whatever he's going to say to justify killing an unarmed kid," Crump told the Times. "Right now, they have this secret proceeding where nobody knows what's happening and nobody knows what's going on. No matter what happened in the car, Michael Brown ran away from him."

It has never been in question that there was an altercation. Wilson was inside the vehicle and Brown was at the driver's window. From the earliest days police have said that Brown had scuffled with Wilson and that a shot was fired in the vehicle.

In those first police accounts, St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said that Brown "allegedly pushed" Wilson back into the car after Wilson tried to open the door. Brown, police said, then "physically assaulted" Wilson, and went for the gun. Wilson fired inside the vehicle, they said. Wilson then got out and killed Brown, Belmar said. Police had said Wilson feared for his life because Brown charged him on the sidewalk.

Dorian Johnson, the 22-year-old who was with Brown when they encountered Wilson, gave another version of events: Wilson encountered them in the street and ordered them onto the sidewalk. Wilson drove past, then backed up and opened the car door so forcefully that it bounced against the two men. Wilson, still in the car, then grabbed Brown by his collar. Brown was trying to free himself and never tried to get the gun. Wilson drew his gun and threatened to shoot, then it went off. Johnson and Brown then ran.

Several other witnesses recounted activity at the car, but each said they were unclear about the nature of that encounter. They have offered varied though fundamentally similar versions of what happened afterward. Brown, witnesses said, was fleeing when Wilson opened fire on the street. After being hit by a bullet, Brown turned around with his hands up, trying to surrender, when the officer shot him several more times, they said.

Exactly how high Brown's hands were has been inconsistent in the accounts and at least one witness said after Brown was shot he appeared to take a step toward Wilson. That witness said, however, Brown had his arms around his stomach before hitting the ground.

Brown was shot at least six times, according to three autopsies.

On Saturday, law enforcement officials declined to discuss what happened outside Wilson's vehicle. St. Louis area authorities declined to comment Saturday.

Protests were explosive after the shooting, when demonstrators squared off against police who used tear gas and rubber bullets to try to disperse crowds. Images of police patrolling the streets during the day and clashing with demonstrators at night shocked many and drew concern from the White House and some Washington lawmakers.

Some protest organizers said they were unmoved by the forensic details, noting there's no explanation provided of why Wilson continued to fire at Brown, who witnesses said was fleeing.

"It (does) make us more convinced that there's not going to be an indictment," said activist Deray McKesson.

A grand jury decision is expected sometime in November, according to the St. Louis County prosecutor's office.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on October 18, 2014, 09:23:16 PM
No comment?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 18, 2014, 09:29:37 PM
Nothing to say.  The only thing "blood on the gun, uniform and inside the car" tells you is that blood goes everywhere when the human body is struck by a bullet at short range.  But I knew that already.

I'm still waiting for the cop to write his report of the incident, which he apparently still has not done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 23, 2014, 04:33:49 PM
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/official-autopsy-shows-michael-brown-had-close-range-wound-to/article_e98a4ce0-c284-57c9-9882-3fb7df75fef6.html

QuoteOfficial autopsy shows Michael Brown had close-range wound to his hand, marijuana in system

Autopsy of Michael Brown indicates he reached for cop's gun and had pot in system
WPIX - New York

October 22, 2014 8:55 am  •  By Christine Byers [email protected] 314-340-8087 and Blythe Bernhard [email protected] 314-340-8129Loading...

ST. LOUIS COUNTY • The official autopsy on Michael Brown shows that he was shot in the hand at close range, according to an analysis of the findings by two experts not involved directly in the case.

The accompanying toxicology report shows he had been using marijuana.

Those documents, prepared by the St. Louis County medical examiner and obtained by the Post-Dispatch, provide the most detailed description to date of the wounds Brown sustained in a confrontation Aug. 9 with Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson.

A source with knowledge of Wilson's statements said the officer had told investigators that Brown had struggled for Wilson's pistol inside a police SUV and that Wilson had fired the gun twice, hitting Brown once in the hand. Later, Wilson fired additional shots that killed Brown and ignited a national controversy.

The St. Louis medical examiner, Dr. Michael Graham, who is not part of the official investigation, reviewed the autopsy report for the newspaper. He said Tuesday that it "does support that there was a significant altercation at the car."

Graham said the examination indicated a shot traveled from the tip of Brown's right thumb toward his wrist. The official report notes an absence of stippling, powder burns around a wound that indicate a shot fired at relatively short range.

But Graham said, "Sometimes when it's really close, such as within an inch or so, there is no stipple, just smoke."

The report on a supplemental microscopic exam of tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter "consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm."

Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy "supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound." She added, "If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he's going for the officer's gun."

Sources told the Post-Dispatch that Brown's blood had been found on Wilson's gun.

Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up.

She said Brown was facing Wilson when Brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. The wound to the top of Brown's head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position toward the shooter; the shot was instantly fatal.

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown's palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.

The county medical examiner, Dr. Mary Case, could not be reached. The assistant who performed the autopsy, Dr. Gershom Norfleet, relayed word that he would not comment.

That post mortem, conducted the morning after Brown's death, comports in most ways with the findings of a private autopsy arranged by Brown's family and made public Aug. 18.

In that one, Dr. Michael M. Baden, a nationally known forensic pathologist, said none of Brown's wounds appeared to have been from shots fired at close range.

Baden noted then that there was no gunshot residue on the body, so it appeared to him that the muzzle of the weapon was at least one or two feet away. He said, "It could have been 30 feet away."

A third autopsy was ordered by federal officials as part of their separate investigation of the shooting. Results of that one have not been revealed.

The county and private autopsies agree on the number and location of the wounds.

The official autopsy also confirmed that tissue from Brown was found on the exterior of the driver's side of Wilson's vehicle.

"Someone got an injury that tore off skin and left it on the car," Graham said. "That fits with everything else that came out. There's blood in the car, now skin on the car, that shows something happened right there."

The toxicology test, performed by a St. Louis University laboratory, revealed tetrahydrocannabinol, THC for short, in Brown's blood and urine.

Alfred Staubus, a consultant in forensic toxicology at the Ohio State University College of Pharmacy, said that THC could impair judgment or slow reaction times but that there was no reliable measurement to make those conclusions.

States that have legalized marijuana have struggled with the issue of how to measure impairment.

"The detection of THC in the postmortem blood of Michael Brown really indicates his recent use of marijuana (within a few hours) and that he may or may not have been impaired at the time of his death," Staubus wrote in an email.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 23, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Also http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html

QuoteThe St. Louis Post-Dispatch late Tuesday night published Brown's official county autopsy report, an analysis of which also suggests that the 18-year-old may not have had his hands raised when he was fatally shot, as has been the contention of protesters who have demanded Wilson's arrest.

[...]

Jurors have also seen the St. Louis County autopsy report, including toxicology test results for Brown that show he had tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana, in his system. The Post's sources said the levels in Brown's body may have been high enough to trigger hallucinations.


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on October 23, 2014, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 23, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Also http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html

QuoteThe St. Louis Post-Dispatch late Tuesday night published Brown's official county autopsy report, an analysis of which also suggests that the 18-year-old may not have had his hands raised when he was fatally shot, as has been the contention of protesters who have demanded Wilson's arrest.

[...]

Jurors have also seen the St. Louis County autopsy report, including toxicology test results for Brown that show he had tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana, in his system. The Post's sources said the levels in Brown's body may have been high enough to trigger hallucinations.

You can't tell shit from THC levels in the bloodstream.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on October 25, 2014, 09:40:43 PM
Here is how you tackle a guy with a knife by backing up:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGGToGpZ5Cs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 30, 2014, 04:03:08 PM
A buddy of mine is the Publisher & Editor at a newspaper.  He had to fire an editorial writer for writing on his personal blog that Brown was an "animal" that was "put down".  Dude must have been trying to get fired.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on October 31, 2014, 04:29:41 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/28/darrien-hunt-official-autopsy_n_6063930.html

QuoteOfficial Autopsy: Darrien Hunt, Black Man Killed By Utah Police, Was Shot In The Back

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A black man killed by Utah police died of multiple gunshot wounds, including several in the back of his body, according to an autopsy released Tuesday.

The official state autopsy documents six gunshot wounds on the body of 22-year-old Darrien Hunt and finds at least four of the shots entered his body from behind, generally confirming the results of an independent autopsy released by his family. It found no drugs in his system.

A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says.

An attorney for Hunt's family, Robert Sykes, disputed that account, saying a picture taken by a bystander shows Hunt smiling as he talked to two officers.

An investigation into whether the shooting was legally justified could be complete within a week, said Tim Taylor, chief deputy at the Utah County Attorney's Office. He said the trajectory of the shots found by the autopsy indicates Hunt was turning away when they were fired, but investigators are still looking at exactly what happened during the encounter.

The autopsy shows four of the gunshots found in Hunt's body traveled back to front. A fifth shot that struck his left arm appears to have come from the front and a sixth traveled downward after entering the back of his forearm.

"I think that means they were pursing him, he was running away. He was probably scared to death," said Sykes.

Hunt was shot Sept. 10 as he walked around a strip mall in Saratoga Springs dressed as a Japanese anime character and carrying a sword that his family said was decorative. Police said someone called 911 after seeing Hunt with the metal sword, and officers fired after Hunt lunged at them with it.

Hunt's family has said Saratoga Springs police used excessive force and treated him differently because he was black. Police say race wasn't a factor.

The officers involved were identified as Cpl. Matthew Schauerhamer and Officer Nicholas Judson.

Saratoga Springs is an upscale city of 23,000 people south of Salt Lake City. About 93 percent of residents are white and less than 1 percent is black, according to U.S. Census figures.


http://www.sltrib.com/home/1758399-155/hunt-sword-schauerhamer-affidavit-officers-darrien

QuoteUtah officer says he shot Darrien Hunt to prevent him from harming others

The deadly encounter between Darrien Hunt and two Saratoga Springs police officers started innocently enough: the 22-year-old man wanted a ride to Orem.

Saratoga Springs police Cpl. Matt Schauerhamer said he would give him a ride but with one caveat: Hunt couldn't have the samurai-style sword strapped to his back with him inside the patrol car.

Things quickly escalated from that point, according to a newly unsealed search warrant affidavit filed in 4th District Court, which reveals many new details about the Sept. 10 fatal shooting of Hunt by Schauerhamer and Officer Nicholas Judson.

Schauerhamer told investigators that after Hunt swung the sword at him "he knew he had to stop Mr. Hunt before he was able to hurt or kill someone," the affidavit states.

Hunt allegedly became violent over the suggestion of giving up his sword.

"Corporal Schauerhamer asked Mr. Hunt to place the sword on the hood of the patrol car," Utah County attorney's office investigator Mark Dell'Ergo wrote in the affidavit, which was made public Wednesday. "Mr. Hunt refused, saying, 'I can't do that.' "

As Judson stood nearby, Schauerhamer asked Hunt why he couldn't put the sword down. Hunt allegedly replied, "It's my sword."

Dell'Ergo wrote that once Hunt was told he could not have the sword in the patrol car, he unsheathed the sword and "moved toward Corporal Schauerhamer, swinging it."

At that point, Schauerhamer drew his weapon and fired at Hunt, according to the affidavit — setting off a foot chase that would ultimately end in Hunt being hit six times by the two officers' bullets.

Two witnesses, cited in the affidavit, also said that Hunt swung the sword. The first was Melanie Wride, who told investigators that she saw Hunt move his hands "like he was laughing," and that his conversation with an officer lasted 30 to 60 seconds before he pulled a sword and swung it " 'very hard' at the officer who had just pulled up in the police car."

The other witness was Leonard Zogg, who saw Hunt unsheath the sword and swing it at an officer, according to the affidavit. However, Zogg told KUTV 2News on Wednesday that the affidavit misrepresents his statement, and that he only saw Hunt unsheath the sword, not swing it.

But Schauerhamer told investigators that he fired at Hunt as he ran away because he felt he needed to stop the sword-carrying man before he reached the parking lot of a Wal-Mart.

The affidavit also revealed more information about Hunt's state of mind and alleged drug use. The Utah County man's family allegedly told investigators that Hunt had been making and using dimethyltyptamine, a hallucinogen also know as DMT, in the weeks before the fatal shooting.

His mother, Susan Hunt, also told investigators about a phone call she had received the morning of the shooting, where her daughter's boyfriend told her that Darrien Hunt had posted a concerning Facebook message: "I have a sword and I'm going to get shot."

Hunt was shot six times by the two officers after they encountered Hunt after two 911 callers reported seeing a man walking with a samurai-style sword near Redwood Road and State Road 73, according to the affidavit.

After Hunt allegedly swung the sword and Schauerhamer fired his first rounds, Judson moved away to avoid Hunt, Dell'Ergo wrote, and fired once towards the man after he heard shots fired by Schauerhamer.

Hunt then ran east with the two officers chasing him. The affidavit states Schauerhamer reloaded his weapon as Hunt ran west behind a Top Stop.

"Mr. Hunt was still holding the sword sheath in his left hand and the sword in his right hand," the affidavit states. "Corporal Schauerhamer yelled, 'Stop!' as Mr. Hunt fled."

Hunt continued running, and when he reached the northeast corner of the Panda Express, Schauerhamer fired again. As Hunt rounded the corner of the Panda Express and began to head west toward Wal-Mart, Schauerhamer fired three more shots.

"Mr. Hunt dropped the sword sheath and fell to the ground," the affidavit states. "The sword came out of Mr. Hunt's right hand and slid along the ground several feet from where Mr. Hunt fell."

Hunt died at the scene.

Robert Sykes, the Hunt family attorney, said Wednesday that he felt the search warrant was improperly used by investigators. He said he felt they were trying to get the information to fend off a potential civil suit — not to find out what actually happened.

"I think it is improper to have used a search warrant in a proposed criminal case that could never be filed," he told The Tribune. "They are [trying] to get evidence of a crime that's never going to get filed."

Dell'Ergo wrote that investigators wanted access to Hunt's Facebook account and cell phone to investigate an alleged aggravated assault of a police officer — and to help law enforcement officers understand what was happening in Hunt's life before the shooting.

Utah County Attorney Jeff Buhman said the information will help give them a better understanding, and a full picture, of what happened that day.

"We will do a comprehensive investigation," Buhman said Wednesday. "We want to know why. If we can know why."

Buhman has yet to rule whether the two officers were justified in using deadly force. He said he believes that decision could come as soon as Friday.

Utah Criminal Code states that an officer is justified in using deadly force if the officer "reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the officer or another person."

An officer is also justified in using deadly force if an arrested subject is fleeing and the officer believes the person has committed a felony offense involving death or serious bodily injury or that "the suspect posed a threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or to others if apprehension is delayed."

"I'm looking at it more simply," Buhman said. "Did they have justification to shoot him? The fleeing is a factor."

The deadly encounter as described in the search warrant affidavit differs from the account given by a medical examiner investigator.

In the ME report, which Sykes released Tuesday, the investigator wrote that "the first officer exited his vehicle and the subject charged him swinging a sword." It makes no mention of any conversation Hunt and the officers had before the shooting.

Buhman said these inconsistencies are because the medical examiner investigator had very little information immediately available to him, while the search warrant affidavit was filed a month later as the investigation continued.

"The investigation has progressed significantly," Buhman said. "These are large investigations. When they are at the ME's office, they have very little information at that point, so they are using what is available at that time."

The affidavit also included statements from several witnesses who saw the shooting unfold.

One woman said that from her vehicle, she saw Hunt swing the sword "very hard" at the officer before the two officers pulled their weapons and began firing. Another man gave a similar account.

The sword — which family members have described as a toy "katana" sword — belonged to Hunt's brother, according to the affidavit.

The autopsy report from the state Office of the Medical Examiner concluded that Hunt died from multiple gunshots fired from behind.

Sykes said Tuesday that the family believes the officers used excessive force on that day.

"You can't use deadly force on a fleeing suspect unless there is an immediate risk of harm — serious bodily harm or death to police or others nearby," Sykes said at a Tuesday news conference. "He's running from the police. They can't have been in any legitimate fear that he was going to harm them. They chased him and had an old-fashioned shootout on an innocent boy who had probably done nothing."

On Wednesday, Sykes said the information in the search warrant affidavit did not change his view.

"They didn't need to use deadly force on him," he said. "They shot him down like a dog in the street. That's just awful."

The findings of Utah medical examiner Pamela Ulmer were similar to a private autopsy done for the family that was released earlier this month, according to Sykes.

The medical examiner concluded that Hunt's cause of death was "multiple gunshots" — with the direction of fire being "posterior to anterior," or from back to front.

Ulmer identified six gunshots in all, one penetrating Hunt's right back and lodging in his lung, while other bullets struck him in the right upper arm, right forearm, left upper arm, left elbow and left hip.

Ulmer also found no traces of illegal drugs in Hunt's blood.

It's difficult to find clear info on where on the scale between toy and replica the alleged katana falls (is it visibly of plastic, is it made to look like metal, etc.).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 31, 2014, 07:41:31 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 30, 2014, 04:03:08 PM
A buddy of mine is the Publisher & Editor at a newspaper.  He had to fire an editorial writer for writing on his personal blog that Brown was an "animal" that was "put down".  Dude must have been trying to get fired.

Maybe he should've have written a letter to the editor instead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on October 31, 2014, 08:38:30 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 31, 2014, 07:41:31 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 30, 2014, 04:03:08 PM
A buddy of mine is the Publisher & Editor at a newspaper.  He had to fire an editorial writer for writing on his personal blog that Brown was an "animal" that was "put down".  Dude must have been trying to get fired.

Maybe he should've have written a letter to the editor instead.

A letter to himself?  That might've worked.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 11:19:55 PM
If Anonymous is to be believed the Ferguson PD is even more fucked up than previously thought. :wacko: :yuk:


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faattp.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2F11-15-2014-11-56-35-AM.jpg&hash=3954617e4082854e473cf7523c6d45f99f08ad34)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faattp.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2F11-15-2014-11-52-01-AM.jpg&hash=ae46aee923bd40a24971fbeb13e92fba0c981b25)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 11:22:39 PM
You've got to be kidding. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 11:22:39 PM
You've got to be kidding. :mellow:
Anonymous took over their twitter feed and started outing Ferguson/St. Louis members after the KKK distributed fliers saying they would use lethal force against protesters.

Now, Anonymous isn't always accurate, but I'd say the information they dig up is right more often than not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 16, 2014, 11:28:40 PM
Aw, puppies! :wub:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on November 16, 2014, 11:28:49 PM
Do those pics link them to the KKK?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 11:36:43 PM
The fliers in question

http://i.imgur.com/C6Tm3Or.jpg

^^^ I don't think so MIM, they're just claiming the folks there in are members and using the photos to out them to the public. If not true it's reckless slander. If true, I'm not gonna cry any tears for them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 11:42:04 PM
It's a shame they didn't bother to share their evidence with their followers.

But I suppose if Timmy vouches for their credibility that should be good enough.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 16, 2014, 11:47:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 11:42:04 PM
It's a shame they didn't bother to share their evidence with their followers.

But I suppose if Timmy vouches for their credibility that should be good enough.


Rock solid endorsement right here  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
QuoteIf Anonymous is to be believed
Quotethe information they dig up is right more often than not.
Quotethey're just claiming the folks there in are members and using the photos to out them to the public.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 16, 2014, 11:50:43 PM
Man, between this and that bizarro hijacking of Raz's AAR, Tim is being really lame these days.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 17, 2014, 12:26:40 AM
Tim needs to follow Lettow's example and take on a Korean bride.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 17, 2014, 01:13:20 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 17, 2014, 12:26:40 AM
Tim needs to follow Lettow's example and take on a Korean bride.

Yes, and scorn the ways of Timmayness.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 01:31:43 AM
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 01:31:43 AM
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

What is your opinion?  Based on what you know, should he be indicted?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 12:18:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 01:31:43 AM
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

What is your opinion?  Based on what you know, should he be indicted?

I don't like the fact that an unarmed individual was shot in what looks--to me at least--an officer-escalated situation;  and if he was indeed challenging two suspects wanted in a robbery (which is still up in the air definitively), he did it the wrong way.

QuoteSources have told the Post-Dispatch that Wilson has told authorities that before the radio call he had stopped to tell Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, 22, to quit walking down the middle of the street. They kept walking, and he then realized that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call.

Wilson then asked dispatch for backup and backed up his SUV next to Brown and Johnson.

You're behind the wheel of a car, that's perhaps the most defenseless position you can be in.  Maybe I was always a little more sensitive to that for being a lefty, but you don't challenge active suspects from your car window like you're ordering from the drive-thru.  You get out of your car and approach.  If they bunny, well, then we're off.

QuoteWilson said Brown attacked him, sources said, and that they struggled over the officer's gun before Wilson was able to fire twice, hitting Brown once. Brown ran away.

Wilson has told authorities that he called, "Shots fired, send all cars," on his radio, but during the struggle his radio had been jarred and the channel changed.

The Post-Dispatch reviewed radio calls made during that period on all St. Louis County police channels, the fire channel used by Ferguson and other channels publicly archived online and could not locate the call. At least one channel on the Ferguson police radio is "receive-only," meaning that the call may not have been broadcast.

After the call, Wilson pursued Brown on foot.

According to sources, Wilson has said that Brown turned and charged, and that Wilson then fired once, paused when Brown appeared to flinch and fired again, multiple times. He said he then radioed for an ambulance.

But this tidbit came out recently, which I found very interesting:

QuoteThe calls released to the Post-Dispatch don't include the point when shots were fired, but an unidentified man who said he was trying to make a video message using the app Glide near where Wilson encountered Brown said he captured the gunshots.

Glide verified that the recording — which includes what sounds like a volley of six shots, a brief pause, and then another four or five shots — was taken at the time of the shooting. The St. Louis County prosecutor's office spokesman said if the recording was validated by the FBI, it could prove to be a key piece of evidence in the case.

Maybe Wilson's recollection was off, adrenaline does that.  Or maybe not.

Somebody that big, sometimes the only way to stop them is to shoot them.  But my problem with this scenario is that a teenager, no matter how big or tough he is, is going to go down on the first shot. He's a kid, not a dusted-out tweaker in a rage feeling no pain, nor is he a hardcore ex-con cop fighter with a hard-on to score another teardrop tat.  And thieving kids run from the cops, even ones that think they're tough enough to slap around immigrant store clerks.  They don't turn around, charge and fight for an officer's firearm.  Especially when they're already shot.  Not over a box of Swishers.

Maybe cigar-stealing teens in Ferguson are more bad ass than those slinging vials for gangs in West Baltimore so my personal experience could be out of line and this kid could've been a budding Marcellus Wallace, but the whole situation around this shooting just doesn't add up to me.  You have your righteous shootings and then you have your bad shootings--and this one just smells like a bad shooting. 

That would warrant an indictment, if only to bring the whole thing to trial.  But even the prosecutors don't want one, so it's not going to happen.  It's just one big, sad mess.  But it's obvious that Ferguson has a lot more problems with their police department and how it deals with its community than this incident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 05:22:52 PM
Even if he isn't indicted, I don't see how he can ever go back to work there.  How on earth do you resolve that situation?

Also I'm surprised they didn't go ahead and make the announcement today, before the cold snap passes by.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 17, 2014, 05:32:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 01:31:43 AM
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

It's been cold, and there is snow on the ground in Missouri.  Maybe that'll cut down on the rioting.  I thought they should wait till mid January and release the findings when there is a foot of snow on the ground.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 17, 2014, 05:34:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 16, 2014, 11:22:39 PM
You've got to be kidding. :mellow:

I don't quite follow what those pictures are suppose to represent.  I don't see how that's evidence of being in the Klan.  Good way to get someone killed though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 17, 2014, 05:32:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 01:31:43 AM
He won't be indicted, and that town is going to burn.

It's been cold, and there is snow on the ground in Missouri.  Maybe that'll cut down on the rioting.  I thought they should wait till mid January and release the findings when there is a foot of snow on the ground.

Should warm up a bit later this week, though. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 17, 2014, 05:45:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 06:43:55 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on October 10, 2014, 06:40:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
"Because slavery happened, does that mean we owe black people something?"

http://www.whitenessproject.org/

i don't get it

ok?
Probably a bit of a tangent now, but I recommend Richard Dyer's White on this, which aims to racialise whiteness. It's very good:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Essays-Culture-Richard-Dyer/dp/0415095379
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 05:55:53 PM
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/17/nixon-activates-missouri-national-guard/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2014, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 05:22:52 PM
Even if he isn't indicted, I don't see how he can ever go back to work there.  How on earth do you resolve that situation?

Yeah, even if he's not indicted or fired, he'd have to move elsewhere.  Or become a consultant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Scipio on November 17, 2014, 06:36:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 17, 2014, 05:55:53 PM
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/17/nixon-activates-missouri-national-guard/
He's no Richard Nixon.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2014, 01:57:06 AM
That's one down.

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/11/ferguson_corrections_officer_charged_with_raping_inmate_in_city_jail_in_2013.php

QuoteCrime
Jaris Hayden, Former Ferguson Corrections Officer, Charged with Raping Inmate in City Jail

By Jessica Lussenhop Mon., Nov. 17 2014 at 2:20 PM
24 Comments   

Categories: Crime, Ferguson

A former City of Ferguson corrections officer has been charged with the rape of a jail inmate. The incident occurred back on October 9, 2013, but the charges against Jaris Hayden -- for felony sexual contact with an inmate and permitting an escape -- were just filed on November 5 of this year.

The indictment came just a week and a half before the victim, identified only as J.W., filed a suit in federal court against the City of Ferguson as well as Hayden. She was in custody for driving with expired plates and giving a police officer a fake name.

"When you read the case, you're going to see there's claims against Ferguson that state that Ferguson's department has customs and practices that are so bad that those practices cause those incidents," says W. Bevis Schock, the attorney representing J.W.

Hayden began work as a corrections officer for Ferguson in May 2012. On October 9, 2013, he booked and fingerprinted J.W. when she got to the jail. According to the lawsuit, he told her she "smelled good" and that "this will teach you a lesson."

The court document goes on to say that when J.W. -- who was several months pregnant at the time -- complained she was having pain and discharge, EMTs checked her vital signs but then left it up to Hayden whether or not she'd be released into their custody. The EMTs left without taking J.W. with them. After J.W.'s boyfriend posted her bail, Hayden was allegedly having J.W. sign papers for her release when she said, "I will do anything to go home."

(Note: The next paragraphs of this story include explicit descriptions of sexual violence.)

According to the complaint:

    By that remark J.W. did not intend to deliver the message that she would have sex with Hayden in exchange for release...J.W. was in great fear. Hayden was in a position of complete power over J.W. Hayden said "Follow-me," and took her down various hallways. Hayden took J.W. into a boiler room in the City of Ferguson jail. Hayden then unbuttoned his pants, removed his penis from his pants.

The complaint alleged that Hayden forced J.W. to perform oral sex on him and had vaginal intercourse with her before ejaculating in his hand. J.W. managed to "capture" a few of Hayden's pubic hairs during the incident. Hayden then allowed J.W. to leave by a side door, and to "run and stay close to the building" to avoid security cameras. According to the document, J.W. immediately went to a Subway across the street and got a bag to put the pubic hairs in. She also went to the emergency room where she was visited by police.

According to the complaint, the hairs J.W. saved were a match to Hayden's DNA.

The Ferguson city clerk responded to a request for comment with this statement, confirming that about a month after the incident Hayden was fired:

    Following the filing of a lawsuit on Friday, the City of Ferguson can confirm that Jaris Hayden was previously a corrections officer for the City of Ferguson. Immediately upon learning of the complaint against Mr. Hayden, the City undertook an investigation which resulted in Mr. Hayden's termination from employment. In addition, City officials and employees cooperated with federal authorities with respect to the matter. Mr. Hayden was terminated on November 19, 2013. He had been a corrections officer for the City of Ferguson since May 25, 2012.


On November 5, 2014, the county prosecutor charged Hayden with four felonies: two for sexual contact with an inmate, one for permitting the escape and one for a "public servant acceding to corruption." Schock says the length of time between the initial incident and the arrest of Hayden was because authorities were waiting to receive the DNA results, plus the fact that the investigation was being handled by federal, not local, authorities. And according to Schock, the timing of the arrest, charges and the federal lawsuit is related to the unrest after the shooting death of eighteen-year-old Michael Brown.

"It was just sort of percolating along in the fed's system. When the Brown thing happened, everything got a little more focus on what happens in Ferguson," says Schock.

Hayden posted bail and is at home according to his attorney, Scott Rosenblum.

"We're going to evaluate the evidence and enter a plea of not guilty," Rosenblum tells Daily RFT. "That's his position."

Read the federal lawsuit and the indictment below:...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 11:37:58 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.opposingviews.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2F350x250%2Ffeatured_image%2F1114%2Fdontlootsign_featured.jpg&hash=b2067190205e445969cc43da80b6f0b498720e36)

:ph34r:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:13:55 PM
How about #dontshootunarmedkids?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:15:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 18, 2014, 12:13:55 PM
How about #dontshootunarmedkids?

Pretty sound advice for the most part.  Kind of like #dontassaultarmedcops & #dontcommitrobbery
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:20:47 PM
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:28:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:20:47 PM
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.

He clearly did.  Store owner was just fearful for his life.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:30:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:28:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:20:47 PM
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.

He clearly did.  Store owner was just fearful for his life.

How is it clear?  There is something clear about this?  But again I thought whether or not he robbed the store it was immaterial to the shooting which was unrelated.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Habbaku on November 18, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
DerSpites has a different definition of clearly than most, it would seem.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:38:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:30:47 PM
How is it clear?  There is something clear about this?

Seemed pretty clear to me. 

QuoteBut again I thought whether or not he robbed the store it was immaterial to the shooting which was unrelated.

It was semi-related.  But most importantly it changed the popular narrative that Michael Brown was a "gentle giant".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:40:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 18, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
DerSpites has a different definition of clearly than most, it would seem.

Are you saying it wasn't clearly a robbery?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:52:15 PM
QuoteSeemed pretty clear to me.

Based on what?  Is this secret knowledge?

Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:38:45 PM
But most importantly it changed the popular narrative that Michael Brown was a "gentle giant".

Well whether or not it actually occurred hardly matters then since it changed popular narratives.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:52:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:40:42 PM
Are you saying it wasn't clearly a robbery?

And you are...and you won't say why...despite me fucking asking you twice.  Any particular reason?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:52:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:40:42 PM
Are you saying it wasn't clearly a robbery?

And you are...and you won't say why...despite me fucking asking you twice.  Any particular reason?

The surveillance video.

Oh, and his buddy admitted they had robbed the damn place.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 01:20:28 PM
Also the owner called it in to the police.  If Mike Brown survived his encounter with the police he'd be in jail awaiting trial for robbery and possibly assault.  I think Ide would call this the best possible outcome.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 01:24:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:30:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 12:28:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2014, 12:20:47 PM
Oh you have proof he committed the robbery?  I thought the store owner said he never did rob the store after all.

He clearly did.  Store owner was just fearful for his life.

How is it clear?  There is something clear about this?  But again I thought whether or not he robbed the store it was immaterial to the shooting which was unrelated.

This is no longer believed to be the case.  Leaked tapes indicate that the officer had been given a description of the robbers, saw them, asked them to get out the street, then realized they fit the description and radioed that he had may have found them and asked for assistance.  He then backed up the car to talk to them.  One ran, the other attacked him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 03:05:58 PM
I haven't read much of this thread and I assume this has already been said. This is going to erupt no matter the Grand Jury decision. If they don't indict the cop then people will riot over the injustice of letting him go. If they do indict the cop then people will riot over the injustice of the system being against them that this kind of thing happens.

It's going to be spurred mostly by radical types - Marxists, extreme leftists, anarchists, and the worst of the remnants of the Occupy movement. They've said they'll target local businesses (Budweiser and others mentioned), and institutional elements like government buildings, as if those things are the cause of racial issues. Those things represent what they're really after as they're all about a whole different agenda and this issue just gives them a place and time to go nuts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 18, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
DerSpites has a different definition of clearly than most, it would seem.

As long as the end result is a dead negro, but that's nothing new.  derweiß does like 'em dead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
I saw a dead cat alongside the road today.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 03:23:10 PM
Probably black, you probably snickered and sent out lolniggercats memes to all your buddies.  Creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 09:33:15 PM
I think if this really explodes into violence again then Ferguson is going to become a pariah town. Businesses moving out, property values plummeting, people who can will be moving out and that'll take the more prosperous people who have the means further degrading the town's tax base and economy. I don't think other towns like Watts Cal have ever really recovered from their rioting, have they?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 18, 2014, 09:44:43 PM
Watts has the advantage of being a part of Los Angeles, so prone to be gentrified sooner or later.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 09:46:46 PM
DC is bouncing back pretty impressively.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 09:53:14 PM
Towns ripped apart like that can recover but it'll likely take years. I figure many businesses won't be remaining if they've been burned and trashed a couple times or more. People start moving out, if they can sell their homes because if the town hasn't recovered then people aren't very likely to buy property and want to move in.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 10:28:02 PM
Our previously troubled section of town is gentrifying quite nicely.  One does wonder if all that progress could be undone in the wake of a single unfortunate event, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 11:13:22 PM
Quote from: KRonn on November 18, 2014, 09:33:15 PM
I think if this really explodes into violence again then Ferguson is going to become a pariah town. Businesses moving out, property values plummeting, people who can will be moving out and that'll take the more prosperous people who have the means further degrading the town's tax base and economy. I don't think other towns like Watts Cal have ever really recovered from their rioting, have they?

Yeah, that town is dead.   I went through there, it's not bad.  It certainly hasn't been torn up badly, but merchants are going to move out.  The local Walmart is already closed. Ten years it'll be like North St. Louis.  It's one of the things I find most depression about this. Most the protesters don't give a fuck either, they aren't from there. 


Btw, Watts and Compton have sorta bounced back.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 21, 2014, 02:06:05 PM
Looks like shit is about to happen.  County prosecutor is preparing a press conference and Holder is telling the police to exercise restraint.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on November 22, 2014, 07:57:52 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-arrests-two-ferguson-bomb-suspects-law-enforcement-050501108.html (http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-arrests-two-ferguson-bomb-suspects-law-enforcement-050501108.html)
No, it wasn't the KKK.



Quote

Against this backdrop of heightened tensions, according to a law enforcement source, two men described as reputed members of a militant group called the New Black Panther Party, were arrested in the St. Louis area in an FBI sting operation.

As initially reported by CBS News, the men were suspected of acquiring explosives for pipe bombs that they planned to set off during protests in Ferguson, according to the official, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the case.

The official said the two men are the same pair named in a newly unsealed federal indictment returned on Nov. 19 charging Brandon Orlando Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis with purchasing two pistols from a firearms dealer under false pretenses.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 01:57:34 AM
QuoteThe official said the two men are the same pair named in a newly unsealed federal indictment returned on Nov. 19 charging Brandon Orlando Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis with purchasing two pistols from a firearms dealer under false pretenses.

I thought anyone could just go into a store in the US and buy a gun - so how does "false pretences" work in this situation?

Or was it a part of a more widely recognised crime of "purchasing firearms while black"?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 02:00:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 11:13:22 PM
It's one of the things I find most depression about this. Most the protesters don't give a fuck either, they aren't from there. 

I find it quite fitting - a bunch of racists who live there will get their just desserts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2014, 02:36:09 AM
The town is majority black.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:56:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 01:57:34 AM
QuoteThe official said the two men are the same pair named in a newly unsealed federal indictment returned on Nov. 19 charging Brandon Orlando Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis with purchasing two pistols from a firearms dealer under false pretenses.

I thought anyone could just go into a store in the US and buy a gun - so how does "false pretences" work in this situation?

Or was it a part of a more widely recognised crime of "purchasing firearms while black"?

They were attempting to purchase firearms for someone who is not allowed to have them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:02:59 AM
So, it looks like the Cleveland police have just shot a black 12 y.o. waving a toy gun...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 24, 2014, 08:06:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:02:59 AM
So, it looks like the Cleveland police have just shot a black 12 y.o. waving a toy gun...
So Cleveland/America/cops/white people     suck/are stupid/evil/racist ?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:10:02 AM
I deliberately refrained from posting a judgement. Though you do seem to have a bit of a trend going on there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 24, 2014, 08:13:37 AM
What color was the gun?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:16:56 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 24, 2014, 08:13:37 AM
What color was the gun?

Black?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 24, 2014, 08:19:10 AM
Can't really blame the cop if it looked like a real gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:22:46 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 24, 2014, 08:19:10 AM
Can't really blame the cop if it looked like a real gun.

Possibly. I'm just saying there is a trend of kids being shot in situations where, objectively speaking, they shouldn't have been. And in each case the kid being shot is black.

Now this could all be within the realm of probability and statistics of "honest mistakes" or it could be statistically significant of something troubling.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:24:36 AM
Btw, there is a witness account that people at the scene told the cops the gun was most likely fake.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 08:46:16 AM
If the initial reports are correct, I don't think I'd fault the cops on this. It was an air pistol, btw.

The gun wasn't readily recognizable as a replica. The boy had it tucked into the waistband. When the cops told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2014, 08:55:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 08:46:16 AM
If the initial reports are correct, I don't think I'd fault the cops on this. It was an air pistol, btw.

The gun wasn't readily recognizable as a replica. The boy had it tucked into the waistband. When the cops told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun.

So do they still shot to kill if it's an 11 year old, or a 9 year old, or maybe a 7 year old gets a pass?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 09:01:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:24:36 AM
Btw, there is a witness account that people at the scene told the cops the gun was most likely fake.
Well, if the witnesses were very confident that it was most likely fake, then it's another matter.  You shouldn't shoot if civilians on the scene think there is no need to do so.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:05:11 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 09:01:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 08:24:36 AM
Btw, there is a witness account that people at the scene told the cops the gun was most likely fake.
Well, if the witnesses were very confident that it was most likely fake, then it's another matter.  You shouldn't shoot if civilians on the scene think there is no need to do so.

You will also have to rely on the judgment of the civilians who may or may not be familiar with guns.

Again, I'm usually one quickly to caution against excessive force when dealing with situations, and there's a lot of cases where I disagree with its application or think that cops overreact, but in this case I find myself siding with the cops, unless there's additional detail I'm missing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 24, 2014, 09:07:24 AM
Quote from: mongers on November 24, 2014, 08:55:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 08:46:16 AM
If the initial reports are correct, I don't think I'd fault the cops on this. It was an air pistol, btw.

The gun wasn't readily recognizable as a replica. The boy had it tucked into the waistband. When the cops told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun.

So do they still shot to kill if it's an 11 year old, or a 9 year old, or maybe a 7 year old gets a pass?
Why would they give a pass to anybody pulling a gun on them?

The unfortunate part about guns is that they allow anyone, no matter how small, to kill.  The cops aren't killing all these kids because they're racist, or evil.  They're killing them because American society was divided by racism for a very long time, and the attitudes towards police are very different in blacks vs. in whites.  When you add to that the barbaric laws and attitudes towards pistols, you get a real problem, where police are always on edge in certain areas.

At this point, there really is no solution to it.  You can't change peoples attitudes when American law enforcement commits a new atrocity every week, and you can't take the firearms out of the equation, for both political and technical reasons.  It'll just get worse and worse as the years roll by.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:37:41 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

Everybody always fucking knows better.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

The gun is the determining factor, not the child. So you'd be wrong, which is what happens when you're not a trained cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 09:54:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.
Yeah, in this situation, the cop should've definitely aimed for the leg.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:57:01 AM
I wish I could shoot DG in the leg.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 10:00:22 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:57:01 AM
I wish I could shoot DG in the leg.
:mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:01:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Absolutely.  I can imagine that being a major topic they cover at the academy:

"Okay recruits, this morning we're going over the finer points on how to shoot kids..."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2014, 10:01:25 AM
Really these cops are just feminists plying their divisive agenda to outlaw all toy weapons*.





* This assumes cops don't start shooting children armed with Barbie dolls.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 10:09:32 AM
I read one of the cops hurt his ankle and needed treatment. He probably walked backwards. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 10:09:32 AM
I read one of the cops hurt his ankle and needed treatment. He probably walked backwards. :P

...into traffic.  He's lucky it was just an ankle.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2014, 10:32:28 AM
It's an interesting heritage project, playing tribute to the the Vietnam war, free-fire playground zones.  :cool:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.

No shit. :D

But, my sympathy to DG and Marty for being so ignorant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:47:09 PM
I don't know how to feel that there wasn't even a mention here of the shooting at Florida State University last week, I guess no one but the shooter died so that's good.

I knew right away the shooter wasn't an FSU football player, otherwise the campus police would have never showed up to investigate.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.

Naw, they should have disabled him. Contrary to DG and Marty's ignorance, cops are trained to disable perps with their service weapon. Just not how they think.

In most instances and contrary to popular belief, patrol officers don't shoot with the intent to kill.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 24, 2014, 01:04:12 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.

Naw, they should have disabled him. Contrary to DG and Marty's ignorance, cops are trained to disable perps with their service weapon. Just not how they think.

In most instances and contrary to popular belief, patrol officers don't shoot with the intent to kill.

Now I'm not a cop either, but I do work with them every single day of the week.

My understanding is that you're splitting hairs here.  No, police do not shoot with the intent to kill, however they do shoot with the intent to stop the assailant - which means hooting at the centre body mass.  Which of course has a very good chance of being lethal.

Marty - police are of course taught a great many forms of non-lethal force.  The use of deadly force is only to be used as a "last resort".  But guess what - a suspect who ignores directions and is reaching for what appears to be a firearm is such a "last resort" situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 01:05:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2014, 01:04:12 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of each situation. In this one, if you tell the kid to put the hands up and instead he reaches for the gun, then you have to make a split second decision of whether or not he will try to shoot you.

What would you have done?

I don't know. I am not a trained cop. I would imagine police would be trained to disable (rather than kill) children, even if they appear dangerous.

Cop should have tackled him.

Naw, they should have disabled him. Contrary to DG and Marty's ignorance, cops are trained to disable perps with their service weapon. Just not how they think.

In most instances and contrary to popular belief, patrol officers don't shoot with the intent to kill.

Now I'm not a cop either, but I do work with them every single day of the week.

My understanding is that you're splitting hairs here.  No, police do not shoot with the intent to kill, however they do shoot with the intent to stop the assailant - which means hooting at the centre body mass.  Which of course has a very good chance of being lethal.

Marty - police are of course taught a great many forms of non-lethal force.  The use of deadly force is only to be used as a "last resort".  But guess what - a suspect who ignores directions and is reaching for what appears to be a firearm is such a "last resort" situation.

Yes
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on November 24, 2014, 01:09:10 PM
Quote from: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:47:09 PM
I don't know how to feel that there wasn't even a mention here of the shooting at Florida State University last week, I guess no one but the shooter died so that's good.

I knew right away the shooter wasn't an FSU football player, otherwise the campus police would have never showed up to investigate.

The morning that happened, I flipped on my phone and saw the headline "3 wounded by shooter at FSU" and the first thought I had was, "Jameis Winston?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on November 24, 2014, 02:46:17 PM
Supposedly this is the BB gun the kid had:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2-ps.googleusercontent.com%2Fh%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2Fxbb-gun-575x320.jpg.pagespeed.ic.DDRVN3zFq9.jpg&hash=aec6fa81186f6338d86fbced7f2ea61f87e29975)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 24, 2014, 02:51:12 PM
Looks pretty damn real to me. Jesus, what a stupid waste.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 02:57:59 PM
Apparently the kid removed the orange device around the muzzle in order to make it look more real.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2014, 03:06:56 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/22/nyregion/new-york-police-officer-fatally-shoots-brooklyn-man.html

QuoteOfficer's Errant Shot Kills Unarmed Brooklyn Man

Two police officers prepared to enter the pitch-black eighth-floor stairwell of a building in a Brooklyn housing project, one of them with his sidearm drawn. At the same time, a man and his girlfriend, frustrated by a long wait for an elevator, entered the seventh-floor stairwell, 14 steps below. In the darkness, a shot rang out from the officer's gun, and the 28-year-old man below was struck in the chest and, soon after, fell dead.

The shooting, at 11:15 p.m. on Thursday, invited immediate comparison to the fatal shooting of an unarmed man in Ferguson, Mo. But 12 hours later, just after noon on Friday, the New York police commissioner, William J. Bratton, announced that the shooting was accidental and that the victim, Akai Gurley, had done nothing to provoke a confrontation with the officers.

Indeed, as the investigation continued into Friday night, a leading theory described an instance of simple, yet tragic, clumsiness on the part of the officer. Mr. Gurley was not armed, the police said.

The episode promised to bring scrutiny to a longtime police practice of officers drawing their weapons when patrolling stairwells in housing projects.

The shooting occurred in the Louis H. Pink Houses in the East New York neighborhood. The housing project had been the scene of a recent spate of crimes — there have been two robberies and four assaults in the development in the past month, two homicides in the past year, and a shooting in a nearby lobby last Saturday, Mr. Bratton said.

Additional officers, many new to the Police Department, were assigned to patrol the buildings, including the two officers in the stairwell on Thursday night, who were working an overtime tour.

Having just inspected the roof, the officers prepared to conduct what is known as a vertical patrol, an inspection of a building's staircases, which tend to be a magnet for criminal activity or quality-of-life nuisances.

Both officers took out their flashlights, and one, Peter Liang, 27, a probationary officer with less than 18 months on the job, drew his sidearm, a 9-millimeter semiautomatic.

Officer Liang is left-handed, and he tried to turn the knob of the door that opens to the stairwell with that hand while also holding the gun, according to a high-ranking police official who was familiar with the investigation and who emphasized that the account could change.

It appears that in turning the knob and pushing the door open, Officer Liang rotated the barrel of the gun down and accidentally fired, the official said. He and the other officer both jumped back into the hallway, and Officer Liang shouted something to the effect that he had accidentally fired his weapon, the official said.

Mr. Gurley had spent the past hours getting his hair braided at a friend's apartment. :blink: Neighbors said he had posted photos of himself on an online site for models, featuring his tattoos, his clothing and his muscular frame.

He and his girlfriend, Melissa Butler, waited for an elevator on the seventh floor, but it never came, so they opened the door to the dark stairwell instead. An instant later, the shot was fired. Mr. Gurley and Ms. Butler were probably unaware that the shot came from a police officer's gun.

"The cop didn't present himself, he just shot him in the chest," Janice Butler, Ms. Butler's sister, said. "They didn't see their face or nothing."

Mr. Gurley made it two flights down, to the fifth floor, where he collapsed. Melissa Butler called 911 from a lower floor, the official said.

Officer Liang and his partner came upon Mr. Gurley and called in the injury on the police radio, saying it was the result of an accidental discharge, the official said.

Mr. Gurley was taken to Brookdale Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Following protocol, Officer Liang was relieved of his gun and his badge pending an investigation.

Commissioner Bratton called Mr. Gurley "a total innocent" and said the shooting was "an unfortunate accident." The victim was not engaged in any activity other than trying to walk down the stairs, Mr. Bratton said.

Mayor Bill de Blasio was also quick to offer his condolences to Mr. Gurley's family. "This is a tragedy," he said.

About 6:45 p.m. on Friday, the mayor, accompanied by his wife, Chirlane McCray, and Mr. Bratton, arrived at the Red Hook East Houses to visit the home of Mr. Gurley's domestic partner, Kimberly Michelle Ballinger, 25.

They spent a little more than 10 minutes there and left without making any comment.

Earlier, Mr. Bratton said that whether an officer should draw his weapon while on patrol when there was no clear threat was a matter of discretion.

"There's not a specific prohibition against taking a firearm out," he said, adding, "As in all cases, an officer would have to justify the circumstances that required him to or resulted in his unholstering his firearm."

The president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, Patrick J. Lynch, declined to say anything about the officer, but commented on the conditions of stairwells in projects, including the setting of the shooting.

"The Pink Houses are among the most dangerous projects in the city, and their stairwells are the most dangerous places in the projects," he said. "Dimly lit stairways and dilapidated conditions create fertile ground for violent crime, while the constant presence of illegal firearms creates a dangerous and highly volatile environment for police officers and residents alike."

The Brooklyn district attorney, Kenneth P. Thompson, issued a statement that questioned the condition of the lighting in the stairwell.

"Many questions must be answered, including whether, as reported, the lights in the hallway were out for a number of days, and how this tragedy actually occurred," Mr. Thompson said.

Neighbors said darkened stairwells were nothing new in the Pink Houses. "The staircases from eight down are dark," said Mattie Dubose, a resident. "If you want to walk in them, you need an escort."

The Police Department is still dealing with the fallout over the death of Eric Garner, a Staten Island man who died after a confrontation with the police in July. The department sought to defuse tension on Friday both by naming the officer in the shooting — an unusual step — and by noting repeatedly that the victim was blameless.

At City Hall, aides to the mayor were well aware of the imminent decision by a grand jury on the police shooting in Ferguson and the charged atmosphere that the death of an unarmed black man can create.

The mayor and Mr. Bratton conferred by telephone several times on Friday morning. Deputy Commissioner Benjamin B. Tucker spoke with the Rev. Al Sharpton about the shooting and the city's response. The chief of the Police Department's community affairs bureau, Joanne Jaffe, went to Mr. Gurley's home in Red Hook, Brooklyn, and was with relatives when his young daughter was told of her father's death.

Ms. Ballinger, the mother of Mr. Gurley's young daughter, and his sister, Akisha Pringle, were scheduled to appear with Mr. Sharpton at an event on Saturday.

"She's got to explain to her 2-year-old old why her father did not pick her up from school today and why he was not home to play with him as is their routine," Kirsten Foy of the National Action Network, Mr. Sharpton's organization, said after meeting with the family.

The officer's future is unclear beyond an expected interview he will give to police superiors. It was not known whether he could face criminal prosecution.

"The cops have tremendous leeway with self-defense cases, but less leeway with a case like this," said Eugene O'Donnell, a former prosecutor who teaches at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. "A life was lost, and you are going to have to account for it."

A similar shooting occurred in January 2004, when Officer Richard S. Neri Jr. killed Timothy Stansbury Jr., 19, on a roof at the Louis Armstrong Houses in Brooklyn. A grand jury declined to indict Officer Neri after he gave emotional testimony that he had unintentionally fired; he was startled, he said, when Mr. Stansbury pushed open a rooftop door in a place where drug dealing was rampant.

On Friday night in Dyker Heights, Brooklyn, a next-door neighbor of Officer Liang described him as cautious and helpful. "He wouldn't mess around or do anything out of the ordinary," said the neighbor, Ronald Chan, 24.

When Mr. Chan learned about the shooting, he said he was shocked and could not believe someone as cautious as his neighbor could have been involved.

"I think it was an honest mistake, because safety first," he said. "Why would he do that? It sounds like an accident."

Honest accident that could happen to everyone, or a rookie who fucked up?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 03:38:50 PM

QuoteThe shooting, at 11:15 p.m. on Thursday, invited immediate comparison to the fatal shooting of an unarmed man in Ferguson, Mo. But 12 hours later, just after noon on Friday, the New York police commissioner, William J. Bratton, announced that the shooting was accidental and that the victim, Akai Gurley, had done nothing to provoke a confrontation with the officers.
Indeed, as the investigation continued into Friday night, a leading theory described an instance of simple, yet tragic, clumsiness stupidity on the part of the officer. Mr. Gurley was not armed, the police said.

The episode promised to bring scrutiny to a longtime police practice of officers drawing their weapons when patrolling stairwells in housing projects.

Hmm, was there an expectation for the officer to employ deadly force....doesnt sound like it.

Quote
The shooting occurred in the Louis H. Pink Houses in the East New York neighborhood. The housing project had been the scene of a recent spate of crimes — there have been two robberies and four assaults in the development in the past month, two homicides in the past year, and a shooting in a nearby lobby last Saturday, Mr. Bratton said.

IMO fucking irrelevant.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on November 24, 2014, 03:52:18 PM
The Grand Jury has reached a decision which they will be releasing later today, presumably so that rioters and police have time to get ready.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 05:18:56 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 03:06:56 PM
Honest accident that could happen to everyone, or a rookie who fucked up?

Like I have said so many times before, there is an erosion of the concept of continuum of force and going straight for the unnecessary brandishing of the firearm, and it is not reinforced enough by immediate supervision.  Twenty years ago, if you fucked up, guess what:  your sergeant's ass got as chewed out as much as yours, and he or she made sure that didn't happen again.  I'm not seeing that level of supervisory control anymore.  You don't have accidental discharges if your weapon is still in your holster.

QuotePeter Liang, 27, a probationary officer with less than 18 months on the job

He'll be sorry he ever raised his right hand for the job.  And why the fuck is he on his own at only 18 months?  You had your Field Training Officer glued to your ass for the first 2 years here.    Good thing about probationary period is that the department can fire you without going through all the CBA nonsense.

QuoteMr. Gurley had spent the past hours getting his hair braided at a friend's apartment. :blink:

What, you got a problem with ethnic hair care, Syt Stahlhelm?  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 05:21:34 PM
Quote from: Kleves on November 24, 2014, 03:52:18 PM
The Grand Jury has reached a decision which they will be releasing later today, presumably so that rioters and police have time to get ready.

Should've waited for a blizzard.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 06:20:44 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 24, 2014, 01:09:10 PM
Quote from: sbr on November 24, 2014, 12:47:09 PM
I don't know how to feel that there wasn't even a mention here of the shooting at Florida State University last week, I guess no one but the shooter died so that's good.

I knew right away the shooter wasn't an FSU football player, otherwise the campus police would have never showed up to investigate.

The morning that happened, I flipped on my phone and saw the headline "3 wounded by shooter at FSU" and the first thought I had was, "Jameis Winston?"

Winston would've only hit two to make the spread.   :P


Anyway, friends tried to help the shooter.  Even when they're acting psycho enough for people's Spidey Senses to go, "Hey, this cat ain't right", nobody does anything anyway.


QuoteFSU shooter's friends tried to get help for him months before the shooting
Tampa Bay Times 11/21/14

When she met him in the parking lot, the sight of him jarred her. Gone was the dapper, carefully dressed man who had taken her on dates for most of the past year.

He was gaunt, haggard, disheveled and wild-eyed. He wore a borrowed T-shirt and a pair of too-small running shorts. He was barefoot. He had thrown away his shoes, he told her, because he was sure they were bugged by the cops who were following him.

Standing there in Las Cruces, N.M., Danielle Nixon listened as the man who would open fire in a Florida State University library begged her for the wrong kind of help. Myron May said he needed her to rent him a car, so he could slip out of town unnoticed.

By this point, on Oct. 8 — six weeks before May would walk into the Strozier Library on the FSU campus, level a handgun and start shooting, wounding three — May's friends had tried at least three times to get him the care he desperately needed. Every time, they were told, he didn't qualify for that care.

In interviews with the Tampa Bay Times on Friday, May's friends described their frustrations over the past three months with the area's mental health care system, one that couldn't save May despite desperate pleas from loved ones who watched him dissolve into paranoia before their eyes.

"You have to commit a crime to get the help you need. Why isn't it the reverse?" said Kimberly Snagg, a Houston lawyer who described May as one of her best friends. "This could have been avoided. The entire thing."

•••

Six months into his job as a prosecutor in the Dona Ana County District Attorney's Office in New Mexico, May couldn't concentrate.

The 31-year-old had become so distractible, he told his friends, that he had decided to see a psychologist. He emerged from the appointment with prescriptions for an antidepressant and an attention deficit drug, which he took faithfully until, about three weeks later, he suffered a panic attack at work.

When another attack followed a week later, he returned to his psychologist and had his medication adjusted, said Nixon, a doctor. May was on a combination of Wellbutrin and Vyvanse — drugs that, in rare cases, can cause paranoia.

By late summer, May had begun acting strangely, his friends said. He was worried his neighbors were watching him. He heard them talking about him through the walls of his apartment.

It was alarming to his friends, but it was nothing, they said, compared to what was still to come.

•••

May told his friends that the officers at the Las Cruces Police Department laughed at him when he showed up on the morning of Sept. 7 to make a bizarre report: Someone was watching him through a camera hidden in his apartment. And he was hearing voices coming in through the walls as he bathed.

May left the Police Department that day and went to a shooting range, where friends had gathered for a bachelor party.

As they squeezed off rounds at the targets, May seemed agitated, they recalled. He told them he wasn't sleeping because of his neighbors' constant spying. Their voices were keeping him up at night, he said. What he really wanted was to get a gun and take revenge on them.

He was ready to buy one that day, he said. His friends talked him out of it.

•••

Unsettled now, May's friends contacted his psychologist's office. They said they told her that May was paranoid, that he was hearing voices, and that he had talked about buying a gun and getting even with his neighbors.

The psychologist made an appointment with May, they said, met with him for about an hour and then declared him to be fine. Nixon and the others were frustrated.

Not long after that day, May called a friend, a law enforcement officer at a local agency, sounding paralyzed with fear. May was sure that other shoppers were secretly observing him. He was afraid of what they might do to him. He asked his friend to escort him home.

A day or two later, he voluntarily checked himself into Mesilla Valley Hospital, a mental health center. Finally, his friends thought, he was in a position to get some serious medical care.

•••

He got out four days later. Soon after, on Oct. 5, he was acting more erratic than ever before. Telling no one beforehand, he drove his black Chevy SUV nine hours to Denver. Then he turned around and drove back.

He made frantic phone calls to his friends from the road. The police were on to him, he said. His hotel room in Denver was bugged, so he had to flee. There were black cars following close behind. He would be a millionaire when he brought to justice the crooked cops who were persecuting him. Stopping for food or sleep was not an option, he said. He drove straight through the night.

•••

Responsible for caring for May's Great Dane, Lil' Bit, during one of May's sudden absences, his friends let themselves into his apartment and found a new pill bottle among his prescriptions, they said.

It was Seroquel, a powerful antipsychotic. The prescriber worked at Mesilla Valley Hospital. Together the friends got on the phone with her and laid out the whole story, describing the voices, the cameras, May's fear of persecution, his desire for a gun, his wish to have revenge.

"She listened and then she ended it by saying, you know, 'I can't really do anything,' " Nixon said. " 'He needs to come back on his own.' "

•••

On Oct. 7, two days after his trip to Colorado, May was driving the streets of Dona Ana County. He pulled into a sheriff's substation and dialed Snagg's number. He told her he couldn't take it; he was turning himself in. He went to the desk to surrender, but the woman there told him he wasn't wanted on any charges. Snagg could hear snippets of the conversation through her cellphone. She said she asked May to hand the woman the phone. Snagg said she told the woman that May was a lawyer in the midst of a severe mental breakdown. "I implored her, please do not let him leave," Snagg said. She asked the woman to detain May, to get him some help. "The response was, 'My child has a program that starts in a few minutes, and it's 4:58, and I don't have time.' " Snagg said.

While Snagg was talking to the woman, May got in his SUV and drove away.

•••

That night, May showed up at Nixon's house uninvited. He was rambling incoherently, according to a police report that describes the incident. Nixon told officers with the Las Cruces Police Department she was afraid for May's safety.

The officers told her they would check on him. But they couldn't find him when they arrived. They knocked on the door to apartment 1403, according to their report.

May lived in 1407.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 06:22:21 PM
I'm shocked FSU had a library.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.

No shit. :D

But, my sympathy to DG and Marty for being so ignorant.
My sympathy to you for being so dumb. :console:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 07:32:46 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2014, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 24, 2014, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Knock it out of his hand with a Bat Boomerang from his Bat Utility Belt.  What can't those things do.

No shit. :D

But, my sympathy to DG and Marty for being so ignorant.
My sympathy to you for being so dumb. :console:

Your such a nice guy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 08:44:49 PM
About 20 minutes now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2014, 09:15:53 PM
Saw this posted elsewhere, pretty spot on I think. Definitely makes sense to announce this at night if you want to delegitimize the protesters.

QuoteSo many reasons that protests are worse-off in the dark. The more I think about it, the worse it seems.

It's harder to document, most cameras see less. It's more attractive to looters, and harder to differentiate between looters and protesters. People are inclined to think of "the good kind of free-speech protest" as happening during the day. Signs and placards aren't as visible.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:30:08 PM
Man this is an incredibly thorough intro
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:31:32 PM
I'm bored of this.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:31:52 PM
Can we just get to the rioting already?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:33:21 PM
Meanwhile, in Deseret--

QuoteDeadly police force has claimed more lives in Utah than nearly any other type of homicide in the last five years, according to an analysis by the Salt Lake Tribune.

Law enforcement officers killed 45 people in Utah between 2010 and October 2014, accounting for 15 percent of all homicides during that period. That made police use of force the second most common type of homicide in the state after intimate partner violence, according to the paper's review of more than 300 homicides.

"The numbers reflect that there could be an issue and it's going to take a deeper understanding of these shootings," said Chris Gebhardt, a former police officer in both Washington, D.C. and Utah.

Utah prosecutors have deemed all but one of the killings justified, the Tribune found. The single shooting deemed unjustified was the 2012 death of a young woman by a West Valley City officer. Last month, a judge dismissed criminal charges against the officer after finding no evidence that the "conduct was not legally justifiable."

Ian Adams, spokesman for the Utah Fraternal Order of Police, defended officers' actions to the Tribune.

"Police are trained and expected to react to deadly threats. As many deadly threats emerge is the exact amount of times police will respond," said Adams, who this summer shot and wounded a man who pointed a fake gun at him. "The onus is on the person being arrested to stop trying to assault and kill police officers and the innocent public."

While Utah has one of the nation's lowest violent crime rates, the Tribune examination of FBI statistics found Utah had the nation's 10th highest rate of reported assaults on police officers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Now lets hope they are as careful and professional when it comes to dealing with any fallout.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:35:30 PM
Here we go. Shields out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:35:30 PM
Here we go. Shields out.

I liked the V for Vendetta guys with the upside down American flags.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:39:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:35:30 PM
Here we go. Shields out.

I liked the V for Vendetta guys with the upside down American flags.

Those need to be found floating upside down in a river.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 09:43:48 PM
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 09:43:48 PM
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.

I'll hold em down while you beat them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:50:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Sounds to me, since we have conflicting witness statements, none of them mattered.  A trial would've approached that differently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:50:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Sounds to me, since we have conflicting witness statements, none of them mattered.  A trial would've approached that differently.

I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

But the main thing for me is that these things get thorough investigations and get treated seriously.  Citizens of the United States being shot dead should be a very serious matter and it seems many times this does not happen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
I'm watching MNF.  Is the police hat guy out demonstrating?  He was my favorite :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on November 24, 2014, 10:00:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 09:50:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
No indictment.  Well at least there was a grand jury hearing where all the evidence was examined and it seems due diligence was carried out.

Sounds to me, since we have conflicting witness statements, none of them mattered.  A trial would've approached that differently.

I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

But the main thing for me is that these things get thorough investigations and get treated seriously.  Citizens of the United States being shot dead should be a very serious matter and it seems many times this does not happen.

I agree.

The problem is the process is never transparent and the cop NEVER get indicted, so it is pretty hard to just trust the system blindly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2014, 10:01:24 PM
I was unaware the testimony conflicted.  I thought his friends didn't see what happened in the car, only what happened out of it.  And AFAIK the friends' testimony wasn't challenged.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:54:28 PM
I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

The part were he said "there were conflicting witness accounts" was kinda where I got that from.    :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 10:11:06 PM
Hey, is that a Quiznos in Ferguson?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 10:12:04 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 09:54:28 PM
I didn't get that impression.  But maybe you are right.

The part were he said "there were conflicting witness accounts" was kinda where I got that from.    :D

The impression I didn't get was the 'none of them mattered' part :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 10:21:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 10:12:04 PM
The impression I didn't get was the 'none of them mattered' part :P

That's what happens with conflicting accounts.  Unfortunately for this case, just like others we've seen, one of the only two people who knows exactly happened is dead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 24, 2014, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 09:43:48 PM
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.

I'll hold em down while you beat them.
While you do it I'll explain that he wasn't a terrorist for freedom, but one for an absolutist Catholic monarchy <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 10:57:17 PM
Well in a normal suspected murder the grand jury only hears the best evidence the prosecutor has, nothing that might remotely weaken his case. So it's atypical for the prosecutor to give so much information, typically the reason it's so easy to get an indictment is the prosecution only has to cherry pick enough evidence to show PC and the defense cannot present a defense or even appear before the grand jury unless called to testify.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2014, 10:01:24 PM
I was unaware the testimony conflicted.  I thought his friends didn't see what happened in the car, only what happened out of it.  And AFAIK the friends' testimony wasn't challenged.

You had witnesses who's testimony conflicted with other witnesses and testimony that conflicted with forensic evidence.  For instance some witnesses claim he was shot in the back, but no bullets struck him in the back.  He had only one friend on the scene, and he ran away before the shooting ( he had a warrant out for his arrest and probably had a better idea what would happen when you get stopped by the police 5 minutes after robbing a store).

Keep in mind the threshold for bring charges is lower then that of successfully prosecuting.  There was no case, the police officer acted properly.  Had the struggle gone the other way, Darren Wilson would be just another name on a plaque at the capital memorial for police who died in the line of duty, and Mike Brown would end up at Potosi (that's were Missouri executes people these days).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:00:35 PM
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 11:01:20 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 10:11:06 PM
Hey, is that a Quiznos in Ferguson?

Not for long!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:03:00 PM
STL Wireless ought to be denied any insurance claims for not having the common sense to board up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 11:04:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:00:35 PM
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.

Yup, incredibly irresponsible to make this kind of announcement after dark, risking the safety of both the public and officers.   But as we saw earlier in this saga with their response to the protests, these agencies seem to be a bit dull in the crisis management department.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:05:59 PM
Fox News camera just got knocked out while documenting some hood rat's stolen gin and juice stash.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 11:04:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:00:35 PM
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.

Yup, incredibly irresponsible to make this kind of announcement after dark, risking the safety of both the public and officers.   But as we saw earlier in this saga with their response to the protests, these agencies seem to be a bit dull in the crisis management department.

Yeah.  Don't fault the people looting and rioting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 24, 2014, 11:09:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:06:54 PM
Yeah.  Don't fault the people looting and rioting.

It is always 100% the people's fault and never even 1% the governments.  I know how it goes "small government" dude.

If looting and rioting is expected why save the trigger until nighttime?  I don't see why that simple question that means there is no fault for looters and rioters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 24, 2014, 11:11:23 PM
Well yeah the looting is 100% the looter's fault. How is that even debateable?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 11:12:25 PM
If I was King I can't really imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have rioters massacred with immense brutality.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2014, 11:13:03 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 10:57:17 PM
Well in a normal suspected murder the grand jury only hears the best evidence the prosecutor has, nothing that might remotely weaken his case. So it's atypical for the prosecutor to give so much information, typically the reason it's so easy to get an indictment is the prosecution only has to cherry pick enough evidence to show PC and the defense cannot present a defense or even appear before the grand jury unless called to testify.
He also normally directs the jury to charge the suspect with a specific crime, the prosecutor just left it up to the Grand Jury. He punted.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 11:15:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:06:54 PM
Yeah.  Don't fault the people looting and rioting.

I believe there would be less people looting and rioting, with the opportunity for more effective crowd control, law enforcement, protection of private property and ensuring better officer safety if the announcement had been made at 9:15am instead of 9:15pm.   

Faulting the people in charge of maintaining public safety for not making the appropriate public safety decisions is not the same as absolving people from looting and rioting, you creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on November 24, 2014, 11:16:07 PM
How much would it suck to be on that grand jury?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:21:09 PM
You focus your ire in the oddest places, Seedy.

Anyway I figured all of this would have been avoided after Holder asked for restraint on the part of the evil police :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:39:45 PM
So... is looting a dollar store really worth the effort? :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 24, 2014, 11:41:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:21:09 PM
You focus your ire in the oddest places, Seedy.
Not really.  It's a sensible precaution that the people making these decisions should make them in such a way that it minimizes violence.  The people there are looking for an opportunity to commit violent acts.  Don't give it to them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 11:42:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:39:45 PM
So... is looting a dollar store really worth the effort? :lol:

Need Treet for Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 11:43:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 11:04:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 24, 2014, 11:00:35 PM
Watching the looting and violence.  Dumbasses.

Yup, incredibly irresponsible to make this kind of announcement after dark, risking the safety of both the public and officers.   But as we saw earlier in this saga with their response to the protests, these agencies seem to be a bit dull in the crisis management department.

I think they were waiting till schools were out and people had gotten home from work.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 11:12:25 PM
If I was King I can't really imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have rioters massacred with immense brutality.

You would probably end up being shot along with your family in the basement of some house if you were king on the orders of Ide and Money.  I doubt you would be a capable as even Czar Czar Nicholas II.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on November 24, 2014, 11:48:01 PM
Czar Czar Binks?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 24, 2014, 11:49:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 11:12:25 PM
If I was King I can't really imagine a scenario where I wouldn't have rioters massacred with immense brutality.

You would probably end up being shot along with your family in the basement of some house if you were king on the orders of Ide and Money.  I doubt you would be a capable as even Czar Czar Nicholas II.

Otto von Antoinette would spirit himself out of Frednecksburg to a comfortable life in exile long before that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 12:06:30 AM
Seedy has the right of it, whatever I am one thing I'm pretty good at is recognizing when I'm in a weak position. I wouldn't do well as a near-modern day absolute monarch, but I can't name many that actually did. But in the pre-Revolutionary era I'd have done fine. I would have definitely seen the writing on the wall long before ole Nicky did and fled for greener pastures with the contents of the Amber Room and other national treasures.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 12:06:30 AM
Seedy has the right of it, whatever I am one thing I'm pretty good at is recognizing when I'm in a weak position. I wouldn't do well as a near-modern day absolute monarch, but I can't name many that actually did. But in the pre-Revolutionary era I'd have done fine. I would have definitely seen the writing on the wall long before ole Nicky did and fled for greener pastures with the contents of the Amber Room and other national treasures.

So that's why you didn't post much of Languish for all those years.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 12:26:14 AM
I don't think I post much now, I think Languish just petered out for me. It had its heyday, now it's much reduced. I also got big into WoW there for a span 4-5 years. I do not believe I was ever in danger of being put to death here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: katmai on November 25, 2014, 12:30:52 AM
What a bunch of morons.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:28:29 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 12:26:14 AM
I don't think I post much now, I think Languish just petered out for me. It had its heyday, now it's much reduced. I also got big into WoW there for a span 4-5 years. I do not believe I was ever in danger of being put to death here.

Man, you just ain't biting tonight. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:44:25 AM
My dad is firming on the side of the protesters and said if he still lived out there he'd be on the streets as well.  I imagine they'd hit him with brick and take his wallet.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:42:42 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2014, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2014, 09:43:48 PM
Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask should be beaten with a bag of door knobs out of general principle.

I'll hold em down while you beat them.
While you do it I'll explain that he wasn't a terrorist for freedom, but one for an absolutist Catholic monarchy <_<

Comic books > 17th century history. :contract:

To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:58:53 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:44:25 AM
My dad is firming on the side of the protesters and said if he still lived out there he'd be on the streets as well.  I imagine they'd hit him with brick and take his wallet.

It's just the black Friday craze starting earlier this year.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 08:44:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:58:53 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:44:25 AM
My dad is firming on the side of the protesters and said if he still lived out there he'd be on the streets as well.  I imagine they'd hit him with brick and take his wallet.

It's just the black Friday craze starting earlier this year.
That's racist!  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 25, 2014, 09:05:08 AM
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 09:12:52 AM
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2014, 09:05:08 AM
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

And why shit won't ever change.  Just tune in next time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:32:21 AM
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2014, 09:05:08 AM
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

All parties?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:39:51 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 24, 2014, 10:57:17 PM
Well in a normal suspected murder the grand jury only hears the best evidence the prosecutor has, nothing that might remotely weaken his case. So it's atypical for the prosecutor to give so much information, typically the reason it's so easy to get an indictment is the prosecution only has to cherry pick enough evidence to show PC and the defense cannot present a defense or even appear before the grand jury unless called to testify.

25 days, 60 witnesses , etc. looks like total lack of control of the process.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Wait 60 witnesses?  That must have been one crowded street.

Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

How much of Fergusen is left this morning?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:48:56 AM
Don't know how much is left, but they apparently hit a Panera :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:49:44 AM
NO BISQUE NO PEACE
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:32:21 AM
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2014, 09:05:08 AM
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

All parties?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/heavy-police-presence-in-ferguson-to-ensure-reside,37528/#
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:52:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:32:21 AM
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2014, 09:05:08 AM
This is like a national ritual performance, almost all of the behaviour from all parties has been entirely predictable right from the beginning.

All parties?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/heavy-police-presence-in-ferguson-to-ensure-reside,37528/#

Anyway, the police clearly seemed to be holding back last night.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:42:42 AM
To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Yeah. But in this scenario Brits are the Hindus. We still burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (and occasionally the Pope - also Putin, Cameron etc.) every year it's because, as a country, we hate Catholics not freedom :P

I'd be equally happy with just locking Anonymous up for being annoying tits and giving succour to Russell Brand :bleeding:

QuoteComic books > 17th century history. :contract:
No :sleep:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:29 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:52:57 AM
Anyway, the police clearly seemed to be holding back last night.

Cooler heads are prevailing right now in the government, they are clearly acting more strategically even if I disagree with the decision of letting it out at night.  Should have been done at 6:30 in the am. 

But they fucked it up pretty thoroughly right after the original event occured. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 25, 2014, 10:56:03 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:42:42 AM
To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Yeah. But in this scenario Brits are the Hindus. We still burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (and occasionally the Pope - also Putin, Cameron etc.) every year it's because, as a country, we hate Catholics not freedom :P

I'd be equally happy with just locking Anonymous up for being annoying tits and giving succour to Russell Brand :bleeding:

QuoteComic books > 17th century history. :contract:
No :sleep:

Is this leading to an English Civil War hijack?!  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 10:57:42 AM
I can imagine Prince Rupert running them down in the Dollar Tree parking lot.

I just got a boner.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:58:46 AM
Man what would have happened if Prince Rupert had returned at Edgehill eh?  That sure would have changed things.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:58:46 AM
Man what would have happened if Prince Rupert had returned at Edgehill eh?  That sure would have changed things.

I just got another boner.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:59:34 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:29 AM
Cooler heads are prevailing right now in the government, they are clearly acting more strategically even if I disagree with the decision of letting it out at night.  Should have been done at 6:30 in the am. 

I'm not convinced there was a perfect time to make the announcement.  Make it at 6:30am and you screw up people's commutes.  You'll have some rioting throughout the day and I'd bet by nightfall you'd still have a bunch of burning buildings and cars.  Rioters gonna riot.  Looters gonna loot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 11:00:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 25, 2014, 10:56:03 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2014, 02:42:42 AM
To me, people who insist on teaching the Anonymous the "real meaning of Guy Fawkes' mask" are as tedious as people who insist on explaining that a swastika is really a Hindu symbol of luck. SYMBOLS CHANGE MEANING. :P
Yeah. But in this scenario Brits are the Hindus. We still burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (and occasionally the Pope - also Putin, Cameron etc.) every year it's because, as a country, we hate Catholics not freedom :P

I'd be equally happy with just locking Anonymous up for being annoying tits and giving succour to Russell Brand :bleeding:

QuoteComic books > 17th century history. :contract:
No :sleep:

Is this leading to an English Civil War hijack?!  :D

The English are too well mannered to do a hijack. It would more likely be an English Civil War digression.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:01:09 AM
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 11:03:06 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:01:09 AM
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch.

All that sodium will kill you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:03:46 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:01:09 AM
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch. 

If anybody bothers you just shout 'Justice for Michael!'
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 11:03:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:01:09 AM
Looks like there will be a demonstration I'll need to walk through to get my Chipotle this afternoon for lunch.

You should be used to the concept of years of frustration and pent-up rage from a community that gets no satisfaction, only empty promises and hollow guarantees.  After all, you root for the Bengals.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

QuoteIs this leading to an English Civil War hijack?!  :D
The long dreamed of :o
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:13:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:09:44 AM
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

You don't?  I thought they were a Common Law thing.

Anyway the Grand Jury just sees the evidence the Prosecutor has and decides if there is sufficient evidence to even have a trial.  The guilt or innocence of the accused is not in question so there is no defense or anything.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:17:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:20:36 AM
Anyway being on a Grand Jury is a pretty decent gig for Jury Duty.  Not alot of stress you are usually just in a meeting room and prosecuturs file in to give you their stuff and ask that you let them take the accused to trial.  You do this with a simple hand vote and then go back to work.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 25, 2014, 11:21:39 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:17:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.
I don't know what grand juries do, but isn't that the job of a trial or do they just duplicate? :mellow:

We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?

The police collect evidence, send it all to the Crown Prosecution Service, they have a rummage and decide whether to prosecute.

US system replace our organisation susceptible to political pressure with one that's vulnerable to public sentiment. Neither seems ideal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 25, 2014, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 10:57:42 AM
I can imagine Prince Rupert running them down in the Dollar Tree parking lot.

I just got a boner.

You need a modern Cromwell to send those rioters "to Hell or Connacht".  :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 11:25:50 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 25, 2014, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 25, 2014, 10:57:42 AM
I can imagine Prince Rupert running them down in the Dollar Tree parking lot.

I just got a boner.

You need a modern Cromwell to send those rioters "to Hell or Connacht".  :D

I'm a Chuck the First man.  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:17:44 AM
We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?
What's a preliminary inquiry involve? We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 11:35:59 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:31:35 AM
We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).

We call that an arraignment.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on November 25, 2014, 11:36:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:20:36 AM
Anyway being on a Grand Jury is a pretty decent gig for Jury Duty.  Not alot of stress you are usually just in a meeting room and prosecuturs file in to give you their stuff and ask that you let them take the accused to trial.  You do this with a simple hand vote and then go back to work.

Depends on the jurisdiction.  In some, grand juries are empanelled for month-long terms.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on November 25, 2014, 11:36:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:20:36 AM
Anyway being on a Grand Jury is a pretty decent gig for Jury Duty.  Not alot of stress you are usually just in a meeting room and prosecuturs file in to give you their stuff and ask that you let them take the accused to trial.  You do this with a simple hand vote and then go back to work.

Depends on the jurisdiction.  In some, grand juries are empanelled for month-long terms.

Yeah, worked with a guy that was on a grand jury in the city;  had that gig for about 9 months, IIIRC.  Needed every other Monday off.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:38:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 11:35:59 AM
We call that an arraignment.
Okay. Yeah here the decision whether or not to prosecute is with the Crown Prosecution Service.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:40:24 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:17:44 AM
We don't have grand juries, but we do have preliminary inquiries which have a somewhat similar purpose.  Do you have those in England?
What's a preliminary inquiry involve? We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).

It's funny to hear you talk, as we use many of the same words, but many different ones.

We have two levels of court - Provincial Court, and Court of Queen's Bench.  IF a matter is summary, or is hybrid and Crown has elected to go by summary conviction, then it goes straight to trial in provincial court.  If proceeded by indictment then defence can elect provincial court judge alone, QB judge alone or QB judge and jury.

If the defence election is QB, then they have the option of requesting a preliminary inquiry.  The preliminary inquiry is for the Crown to demonstrate there is sufficient evidence to warrant having a trial.  Quite frankly in this day and age of disclosure rights I think prelimns are largely a waste of time and money, but they continue to exist.


I should say the names of the courts will vary from province to province - I used Alberta names.  Ontario has General Division and Superior Division courts, while BC has Provincial Court and Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:41:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 11:35:59 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:31:35 AM
We have preliminary hearings at the Magistrates. The defendant can plead guilty or get bail if not already on it. The Magistrates' Court then either assign the case to themselves (if it's summary, or either-way and that's the way the decision goes) or commit it to the Crown Court (if it's indictable or either-way and it goes there, or the defendant elects to go to the Crown Court).

We call that an arraignment.

An arraignment is merely the process by which someone is formally charged.  WE usually arraign an Accused right before his trial starts (if proceeded by indictment).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 11:44:05 AM
My understanding is that the preliminary hearing here is some time before the trial gets pencilled in. So if the defendant pleads guilty then they get the full discount off their sentence, if they plead guilty at the start of the trial after all of the work and costs that have gone into it then the discount is greatly reduced.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 11:50:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 11:40:24 AM
It's funny to hear you talk, as we use many of the same words, but many different ones.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.darkmeme.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fmemeone-memes%2F540163433c9b3.jpg&hash=94bd8e5170ad94c2d8541b4f3a77116c3ac0cd84)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Wait 60 witnesses?  That must have been one crowded street.

They allowed other witnesses, such as Wilson's supervisor, to tell the grand jury what a great cop he is.  You know, stuff that happens during a trial, not a grand jury.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 25, 2014, 11:56:59 AM
They must be having a sale. Buy one OE foty, get one free.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2Fimage%2F5676290-4x3-940x705.jpg&hash=1d63468747967b9121c4b9e07a0be18b41bef54b)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.thewire.com%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fupload%2Fwire%2F2014%2F08%2F18%2FAP29060525462%2Flead_large.jpg&hash=a01b278a683c5be62f7a59c17455fce9d104ec32)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:03:12 PM
Royals fans :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 12:06:01 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:03:12 PM
Royals fans :rolleyes:

:mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 12:06:01 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:03:12 PM
Royals fans :rolleyes:

:mad:

Be mad at him, not me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 12:13:51 PM
Some warm weather in Ferguson.  :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Well one cannot say they were not thorough.

That's not usually the goal.

It is when the stakes for getting it right are so high.

That is what petit (trial) juries are usually used for.

I do get your point and would be inclined to agree if the principle were more generally applied rather than reserved for very particular application.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on November 25, 2014, 12:50:50 PM

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2014%2F11%2F25%2F237B11EA00000578-0-image-28_1416925401996.jpg&hash=b5d56ef55e947f72cc197a9d6e5dcbfc4d8b204a)

"Burn this bitch down!"


Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.

This situation is different and you know it.  This was a planned riot, the rabble was all there ready to rock.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.

This situation is different and you know it.  This was a planned riot, the rabble was all there ready to rock.

No.  It's not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:57:04 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Wait 60 witnesses?  That must have been one crowded street.

They allowed other witnesses, such as Wilson's supervisor, to tell the grand jury what a great cop he is.  You know, stuff that happens during a trial, not a grand jury.

What the hell?  What does that have to do with whether or not there was enough evidence to take him to trial?  Ok so maybe it was a highly unorthodox Grand Jury hearing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:57:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Burning buildings and cop cars keep things nice & toasty.

It's a good thing those weren't armored vehicles.  That might have provoked people into doing something rash.

This situation is different and you know it.  This was a planned riot, the rabble was all there ready to rock.

No.  It's not.

Yes.  It is.  This thing has been all over social media for months.  These are the usual clowns who show up at every G-8 summit or whatever.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:58:56 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 25, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
I do get your point and would be inclined to agree if the principle were more generally applied rather than reserved for very particular application.

Indeed.  It is a pity we have to wait until people are burning down cities to understand why Police shooting people dead is destabilizing to law and order and needs to be seriously addressed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:57:54 PM
Yes.  It is.  This thing has been all over social media for months.  These are the usual clowns who show up at every G-8 summit or whatever.

They were there for the first round of riots, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:09:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:57:04 PM
What the hell?  What does that have to do with whether or not there was enough evidence to take him to trial?  Ok so maybe it was a highly unorthodox Grand Jury hearing.

It was the perfect Grand Jury, when you already knew what you wanted to achieve with it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:10:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 12:57:54 PM

Yes.  It is.  This thing has been all over social media for months.  These are the usual clowns who show up at every G-8 summit or whatever.

Bullshit.  I'm seeing North County folk there.  People who robbed a liquor store in August are the same guys who robbed the same liquor store last night.  They didn't do it because you took offense at scary cars the cops had.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:11:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:10:04 PM
They didn't do it because you took offense at scary cars the cops had.

:lol:

Oh for fucksake Raz.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:13:51 PM
Interesting graphic presentation from the WP

QuoteWhat happened in Ferguson
St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch laid out this scenario for the sequence of events in the shooting of Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, assembled from physical evidence and testimony of dozens of witnesses.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/ferguson-grand-jury-findings/?hpid=z2

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:11:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:10:04 PM
They didn't do it because you took offense at scary cars the cops had.

:lol:

Oh for fucksake Raz.

The "riot because of scary military vehicles", was an absurd argument.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Siege on November 25, 2014, 01:20:48 PM
What scary military vehicles?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:21:03 PM
Quote from: citizen k on November 25, 2014, 12:50:50 PM

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2014%2F11%2F25%2F237B11EA00000578-0-image-28_1416925401996.jpg&hash=b5d56ef55e947f72cc197a9d6e5dcbfc4d8b204a)

"Burn this bitch down!"


Oh, that was actually a thing.  Wow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
Angry black people?  *shudder*
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 25, 2014, 01:20:48 PM
What scary military vehicles?

The ones that so enraged the public that they robbed a liquor store.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:36:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:15:20 PM
The "riot because of scary military vehicles", was an absurd argument.

Indeed it would have been if anybody had made it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 25, 2014, 01:20:48 PM
What scary military vehicles?

The ones that so enraged the public that they robbed a liquor store.

In Raz's fantasy land in any case.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:40:42 PM
Good news-- Sharpton is on the scene.

RESIST WE MUCH
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 

Because no one ever says anything inappropriate when caught up in a swell of emotion?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:46:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:40:42 PM
Good news-- Sharpton is on the scene.

RESIST WE MUCH

I saw that and wanted to vomit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:46:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd.

An even angrier black person then.  Gotcha.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 25, 2014, 01:47:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:40:42 PM
Good news-- Sharpton is on the scene.

RESIST WE MUCH

He'll calm things down!   
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 

Because no one ever says anything inappropriate when caught up in a swell of emotion?

There's a difference between venting Florida Evans-style and exhorting a crowd to "Burn this bitch down."  Kind of unsettling that you're so willing to give the dude a pass.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:52:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
There's a difference between venting Florida Evans-style and exhorting a crowd to "Burn this bitch down."  Kind of unsettling that you're so willing to give the dude a pass.

LOL, Florida Evans.  You're such an unrepentant racist asshole, d.  But at least you keep it consistent.  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
Angry black people?  *shudder*

That's Brown's step-father yelling those very words to a crowd. 

Because no one ever says anything inappropriate when caught up in a swell of emotion?

There's a difference between venting Florida Evans-style and exhorting a crowd to "Burn this bitch down."  Kind of unsettling that you're so willing to give the dude a pass.

If he repeats that phrasing again, then I'd take issue. Having a visceral reaction that involves making violent statements in the heat of the moment? Hardly surprising.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 25, 2014, 01:20:48 PM
What scary military vehicles?

The ones that so enraged the public that they robbed a liquor store.

In Raz's fantasy land in any case.

Well at least you are backing off that position, so I'm happy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:57:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:52:37 PM
LOL, Florida Evans.  You're such an unrepentant racist asshole, d.  But at least you keep it consistent.  :lol:

We all remember that poignant episode after James's funeral.  DAMN DAMN DAMN...

And no, I am not racist.  Stop that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:57:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:53:18 PM
If he repeats that phrasing again, then I'd take issue. Having a visceral reaction that involves making violent statements in the heat of the moment? Hardly surprising.

I guess you have lower expectations of people than I do.  Agree to disagree, then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:57:03 PM
And no, I am not racist.  Stop that.

YOU KNOW WHO TALKS ABOUT RACE?  RACISTS!

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 01:59:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 01:55:04 PM
Well at least you are backing off that position, so I'm happy.

That was not my position :P

But I am happy they did the Grand Jury investigation.  If only a similar investigation would be done anytime a shooting like this occurs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:57:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 01:53:18 PM
If he repeats that phrasing again, then I'd take issue. Having a visceral reaction that involves making violent statements in the heat of the moment? Hardly surprising.

I guess you have lower expectations of people than I do. 

You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:

To Spicey the civilian rabble is expected to have pristine conduct while trained professionals can do whatever.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:07:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:

To Spicey the civilian rabble is expected to have pristine conduct while trained professionals can do whatever.

No, for d, that is expected of white civilian rabble.  Black civilian rabble, well, they're just doing what they always do.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 02:10:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
You had no problem with having lower expectations with those responsible for public safety last night.  :lol:

What did they do last night?  :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 02:33:16 PM
Looks like there was a death, after all.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/25/report-body-of-black-male-found-shot-to-death-set-on-fire-near-apartment-complex-where-michael-brown-died/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 02:52:22 PM
Speaking of Sharpton anyone see the  NYT piece on his transformation into an establishment figure and serious, serious issues with the IRS?

(The most striking thing though was just how much weight he lost over the last 20 years! :o)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 01:57:03 PM
We all remember that poignant episode after James's funeral.  DAMN DAMN DAMN...

And no, I am not racist.  Stop that.
When I first saw that scene I laughed.... and then I thought to myself "am I an asshole for laughing at that lady's misery?" :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 02:52:22 PM
Speaking of Sharpton anyone see the  NYT piece on his transformation into an establishment figure and serious, serious issues with the IRS?

(The most striking thing though was just how much weight he lost over the last 20 years! :o)
Didn't he get his stomach stapled?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on November 25, 2014, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 02:52:22 PM
Speaking of Sharpton anyone see the  NYT piece on his transformation into an establishment figure and serious, serious issues with the IRS?

(The most striking thing though was just how much weight he lost over the last 20 years! :o)

Yeah, I saw where it's being reported recently that he owes millions in taxes, something like 4.5 mil.

Then too he's the administration's race policy adviser or some title like that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 02:58:25 PM
Quote from: KRonn on November 25, 2014, 02:57:41 PM
he's the administration's race policy adviser
:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:09:15 PM
He apparently helped pick the new Attorney General nominee :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 03:12:49 PM
 :wacko:

I'll never understand how Al went legit.  I mean, the dude is such a huckster.  Does he still claim he was ordained when he was five years old or whatever it was? :D
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:15:15 PM
He got an MSNBC show and some people started taking him seriously.  Seedy even pretends to.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 03:21:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on November 25, 2014, 03:12:49 PM
:wacko:

I'll never understand how Al went legit.  I mean, the dude is such a huckster.  Does he still claim he was ordained when he was five years old or whatever it was? :D
Read all about it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/nyregion/questions-about-al-sharptons-finances-accompany-his-rise-in-influence.html?_r=0

I quite like him myself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
He trafficks in the truth.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 03:21:44 PM
I quite like him myself.

Well, of course. You are always about bombastic, crappy politico types. <_<
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 25, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
He trafficks in the truth.

But he doesn't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:49:21 PM
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 25, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
He trafficks in the truth.

But he doesn't.

Sure he does.  Just because, as a cracker, it's truth you don't want to hear doesn't disqualify it.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 03:57:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 25, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
He trafficks in the truth.

But he doesn't.

Sure he does.  Just because, as a cracker, it's truth you don't want to hear doesn't disqualify it.



I'm not and I recognize that he doesn't. My receptionist and I were just talking about all he'll do is add more hot air to the situation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:02:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 03:57:42 PM
I'm not and I recognize that he doesn't. My receptionist and I were just talking about all he'll do is add more hot air to the situation.

The 2014 version Al Sharpton is a much more subtle influence than the track suited shuckster goofball from the 1980s.  Of course, back in the 1980s, you had to be louder to be heard from Whitey.

Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.  There was nothing inflammatory or baiting about it. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 04:03:54 PM
I listened to a little on the radio.  That's where I heard the bit about cops supposedly letting Ferguson burn.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 04:04:08 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:02:28 PM
Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.

I think there are better ways to waste my time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:07:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 04:03:54 PM
I listened to a little on the radio.  That's where I heard the bit about cops supposedly letting Ferguson burn.

That was a reporter that said that, you know.  Not one of those damned dirty negroes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 04:04:08 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:02:28 PM
Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.

I think there are better ways to waste my time.

Like wasting your receptionist's time instead?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:07:46 PM
That was a reporter that said that, you know. 

Now it may have been a somewhat baiting question, but the supposedly aggrieved parties all agreed emphatically.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 04:10:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Like wasting your receptionist's time instead?

Small talk promotes cohesiveness.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 25, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
I listened to the Press Conference of the Prosecutor while driving last night.  The first thing that struck me was how poorly timed the announcement was.  Why couldnt he have waited until the next morning?  The next thing that struck me was that he went out of his way to build a case against the person who was shot.  I am not sure why he felt the need to do that.  The issue before the Grand Jury was presumably to consider whether there was sufficient evidence against the police officer to proceed with a criminal trial.  It struck me that if someone wanted to inflame the situation that press conference was a good way of doing it. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 04:22:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 04:10:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Like wasting your receptionist's time instead?

Small talk promotes cohesiveness.

:)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:07:46 PM
That was a reporter that said that, you know. 

Now it may have been a somewhat baiting question, but the supposedly aggrieved parties all agreed emphatically.

Your posts need more fabric softener.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:23:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 25, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
I listened to the Press Conference of the Prosecutor while driving last night.  The first thing that struck me was how poorly timed the announcement was.  Why couldnt he have waited until the next morning?  The next thing that struck me was that he went out of his way to build a case against the person who was shot.  I am not sure why he felt the need to do that.  The issue before the Grand Jury was presumably to consider whether there was sufficient evidence against the police officer to proceed with a criminal trial.  It struck me that if someone wanted to inflame the situation that press conference was a good way of doing it.

Now, now, now...it's only the "supposedly aggrieved" parties that are at fault here, CC.  There will be no blaming Whitey today.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 05:58:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:02:28 PM
The 2014 version Al Sharpton is a much more subtle influence than the track suited shuckster goofball from the 1980s.  Of course, back in the 1980s, you had to be louder to be heard from Whitey.

Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.  There was nothing inflammatory or baiting about it.

The one in which he bitched about some blogger?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 25, 2014, 06:00:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 05:58:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 04:02:28 PM
The 2014 version Al Sharpton is a much more subtle influence than the track suited shuckster goofball from the 1980s.  Of course, back in the 1980s, you had to be louder to be heard from Whitey.

Funny, but I bet none of you Sharpton-haters actually watched his public statement today.  There was nothing inflammatory or baiting about it.

The one in which he bitched about some blogger?

Hey Yi - I was just looking at your sig line:

Quote2. Before bets $50 even money that Israel strikes Iran before 11/24/2014.

I think someone owes you $50.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 07:21:06 PM
Somebody takes their arbitration duties very seriously.  :cheers:

Way ahead of you counselor. :smoke:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 07:35:52 PM
I think the big problem is in the United States generally prosecutors decide on their own discretion whether someone should be brought to trial. Unless they are literally trying to railroad a guy for which there is no evidence at all, the prosecutor can then pretty easily get an indictment from a grand jury (in the Federal courts or the roughly 25 or so States that normally use them.)

In this case something special was done that's obviously allowed for under the law but highly irregular. The prosecutor actually made use of a feature of grand juries not normally used--their ability to be given a bunch of random evidence and decide for themselves if any crimes may have been committed, which crimes those were, and what charges to indict on. Normally a prosecutor is going to direct the grand jury to a specific charge, with only his strongest evidence. It creates the perception (possibly true), that the prosecutor was basically unwilling to say he couldn't find sufficient cause for trial so instead he passed it onto a grand jury via a process that normally never happens.

There was obviously enough evidence a drunk prosecutor from Bob's Barber College & Law School could have gotten an indictment. Could a prosecutor have won at trial? Probably not, just based on the stuff we've heard so far. In non-controversial cases in situations like this the prosecutor would decline to prosecute due to the normal operations of the prosecutor's office being geared around "not losing cases." But McCulloch didn't have the stones to stand up as County Prosecutor and let it be known that in his 20+ years experience worth of expertise he didn't have a winnable case, so instead he pushes it off onto the grand jury.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
Yeah, my impression is that grand juries elect not to indict only when the prosecutors doesn't want them to indict.  I think the same thing happened with Tony Stewart's case a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 07:47:35 PM
I forgot that this forum actually has signatures.  I turned them off such a long time ago.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 07:48:16 PM
What the fuck, Seedy?  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 07:49:44 PM
I think it was a good move on the prosecutor's part.  This way he gets all the evidence put on the public record, and angry negroes can't scream that the white man was covering for whitey.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 07:50:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 25, 2014, 07:48:16 PM
What the fuck, Seedy?  :mad:

Don't look at me, the Grand Jury did it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 25, 2014, 08:30:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 07:49:44 PM
I think it was a good move on the prosecutor's part.  This way he gets all the evidence put on the public record, and angry negroes can't scream that the white man was covering for whitey.

Not true at all. The unusual way in which this grand jury was run will merely be interperted as a cover up more brazen than usual. At least the cops who beat Rodney king were put on trial, Wilson didn't even have to go through that, when the prosecutor, if he had wished could certainly have convinced a grand jury to indict.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 08:54:42 PM
Seedy just wants to see Whitey hang.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:49:21 PM
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.

Um the governor is getting flack for not sending in the national guard and mostly from the police themselves :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:04:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:49:21 PM
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.

Um the governor is getting flack for not sending in the national guard and mostly from the police themselves :huh:

Um fine but it's unrelated to what I said.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 09:05:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 09:04:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 03:49:21 PM
Predictably, the police are now getting crap for holding back and letting Ferguson burn last night.

Um the governor is getting flack for not sending in the national guard and mostly from the police themselves :huh:

Um fine but it's unrelated to what I said.

How is something directly related to what you said unrelated to what you said? :hmm:

I said the only criticism I had heard was at the Governor for being too slow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:00:52 PM
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 10:04:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:00:52 PM
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.

You watch more Sharpton then Seedy does.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 10:05:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

I wonder if the grand jury had chosen to indict would there still have been a riot.  I mean, people who show up to a protest with firearms, lighter fluid, and gasoline often have ill intent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 10:11:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 25, 2014, 10:33:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 10:04:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:00:52 PM
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.

You watch more Sharpton then Seedy does.

So we should trust that derspiess knows the fellow better than Seedy then.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:34:33 PM
Wow.  Just wow.  Letting an officer dispose of and process his own evidence, no measurements taken at a shooting scene, no taping of interviews and no photographs taken.  And why the fuck not, it's only a dead negro.

QuoteUnorthodox police procedures emerge in grand jury documents
By Tom Hamburger and John Sullivan
Washington Post


When Ferguson, Mo., police officer Darren Wilson left the scene of the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, the officer returned to the police station unescorted, washed blood off his hands and placed his recently fired service revolver into an evidence bag himself.

Such seemingly un­or­tho­dox forensic practices emerged from the voluminous testimony released in the aftermath of a grand jury decision Monday night not to indict Wilson.

The transcript showed that local officers who interviewed Wilson immediately after the shooting did not tape the conversations and sometimes conducted them with other police personnel present. An investigator with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's office testified that he opted not to take measurements at the crime scene.

"I got there, it was self-explanatory what happened," said the investigator, whose name was not released, in his grand jury testimony. "Somebody shot somebody. There was no question as to any distances or anything of that nature at the time I was there."

The investigator, described as a 25-year veteran, did not take his own photographs at the scene of the shooting because his camera battery was dead, he said. Instead, he relied on photographs shot by the St. Louis County Police Department.

The medical examiner and Ferguson Police Department did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

When Wilson returned to the police department after the shooting, he was permitted to drive by himself. No one photographed his bloodied hands before he washed up at the station because "there was no photographer available."

Later, injuries to Wilson's head caused by punches he said were thrown by Brown were photographed by a local detective at the Fraternal Order of Police building, not at police headquarters.


An FBI agent interviewed by the grand jury said he did tape his interview with Wilson. The agent, who was not identified, said Wilson washed up immediately after the shooting because he was worried about the danger presented by some one else's blood, not about preserving evidence.

"His concern was not of evidence, but as a biohazard or what possible blood hazards it might attract," said the agent, who like other witnesses was not identified by name.

At the crime scene, the medical examiner did not see stippling, the residue of gunpowder on clothing that can indicate shots fired at close range. Eventually an autopsy found evidence of stippling.

In the extended interviews, prosecutors do not come across as particularly aggressive or curious. But they do question police procedures on a couple of occasions, including the failure by Ferguson and St. Louis County investigators to tape their interviews with the officer after the shooting.

Why not tape these answers? a detective with St. Louis County was asked. "It is just common practice that we do not," the detective said.

Prosecutors also asked why Wilson was permitted to handle evidence in the case himself. "He had informed me that after he responded to the police station, he had packaged his weapon and then he directed my attention to an evidence envelope,'' said the St. Louis County detective. Is it customary for the person who was involved in such an incident "to handle and package their own gun as evidence?" the detective was asked.

Not according to the rules of the St. Louis County Police Department, the detective said. But Ferguson may have had its own rules, the detective said. He was not aware of "any policies or procedures they have in place" on the topic.

"Darren Wilson had told me that he had packaged the weapon and it was currently in that evidence bag," the detective told the grand jury. "Now, at that point in time I never checked to verify that, it was done later," the detective said.

The accounts occasionally revealed inconsistencies. For example, two investigators who interviewed Wilson immediately after the incident said Wilson told them only one shot was fired by Wilson from inside the Chevy Tahoe police cruiser.

But in his testimony, Wilson said two shots were fired inside the car, among several misfires.

The shots and misfires preceded the fatal shooting of Brown on the street a few moments later. The shots were fired from the car after Wilson said Brown had reached in to the vehicle, swinging at the officer and grabbing for his revolver.

Wilson described Brown as having the intimidating size of "Hulk Hogan." At one point, he said, Brown pushed his revolver down toward the floor, eventually forcing the firearm into the officer's thigh. Wilson said Brown appeared to be trying to squeeze the trigger. Eventually, Wilson described getting free of Brown's grip and raising his weapon toward his attacker. The first attempts by Wilson to get off a round at his attacker failed, he said, as the gun only clicked without firing a bullet.

Wilson ultimately said he fired two shots inside the vehicle. After one shot fired he noticed shattered glass and saw blood on his hand, an indication, he said, that Brown had been hit.

However, a Ferguson police officer and a detective with the St. Louis County Police said that Wilson told them only shot was fired inside the car. The two officers – one a 38-year veteran of the Ferguson police force and the other a county detective -- were among the first to talk with Wilson after the fatal shooting. Wilson and the other officers said the weapon failed to fire multiple times inside the vehicle.

There was also confusion in the official police testimony about whether Brown was carrying cigarillos at the time of his encounters with Wilson.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 10:39:35 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 10:11:48 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.

The governor is a cracker too.

Appointing a Black Avenger special prosecutor suffers from the same drawback as just charging the copper and proceeding to trial: it sets a precedent that street violence affects the workings of the criminal justice system.

Also, Holder already tried to play the "black guy on your side" card and that got him nowhere. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:40:41 PM
Mono would be pissed!

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/11/25/more-protests-expected-in-nyc-following-ferguson-grand-jury-decision/

QuoteProtesters Block Lincoln Tunnel, Shut Down FDR Drive Night After Ferguson Decision

Protesters angry about the grand jury decision in Ferguson, Missouri first shut down an entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel during the evening rush Tuesday, then shut down both sides of the Franklin D. Roosevelt East River Drive.

The FDR was shut down in both directions at East 6th Street as of shortly before 9 p.m. as the protesters marched, police said. The eastbound Queens-Midtown Tunnel was also closed because of the protesters, police said.

The throng expressed outrage at the decision not to indict Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.

Joe Biermann reported that as many as 3,000 people marched up the FDR Drive. They later gathered for a protest rally at First Avenue near 42nd Street and the United Nations, and afterward headed back to Times Square for the second time in the evening.

At the rally, someone got on top of a bus shelter and began speaking through a bullhorn as a huge group gathered around.

Protesters also tried to go over the Williamsburg Bridge, but police would not allow them to do so, according to witnesses. Some shoving between protesters and police was also observed.

Protesters did later begin walking over the Manhattan Bridge.

A protester on the East Side of Manhattan was also seen lighting an American flag on fire.

A couple of hours earlier, protesters also marched to the Lincoln Tunnel and attempted to walk through, CBS2 reported. Police blocked the protesters at 41st Street and Eleventh Avenue, and traffic was left at a standstill.
CBS2's Tony Aiello reported the standoff eventually came to an end and the protesters decided to march north on Eleventh Avenue, and went instead to Father Duffy Square in Times Square. But a driver reported being stuck for half an hour.

Aiello reported on Twitter that protesters were warned three times to get out of th

One man was seen scuffling with police as they tried to take him into custody.

...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 10:46:57 PM
See that's how you riot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 10:49:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 10:39:35 PM

The governor is a cracker too.


Mean son of a bitch.  You ought to see the letters he gets.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:50:15 PM
I didn't know anything was happening but my mother just texted to check in. I was like I'm drinking wine and watching Star Trek:TNG. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:50:15 PM
I didn't know anything was happening but my mother just texted to check in. I was like I'm drinking wine and watching Star Trek:TNG. :unsure:

Afraid you'd be out there rioting, too?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 10:52:57 PM
Weirdly there was nothing on campus today.  I guess I should be glad it is Thanksgiving holiday so all the usual activists are on vacation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:54:02 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:50:15 PM
I didn't know anything was happening but my mother just texted to check in. I was like I'm drinking wine and watching Star Trek:TNG. :unsure:

Afraid you'd be out there rioting, too?

No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

I've only protested really once and that was a gay protest, so does that even count?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:57:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:54:02 PM
No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

My Mom used to do stuff like that all the time. 

"I heard there was a shooting."
"That was two counties away, and it was last night."
"I know, I was just worried..."


QuoteI've only protested really once and that was a gay protest, so does that even count?

I've seen gay protests, and if all protests were like that, the world would be a much happier place.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 25, 2014, 10:59:25 PM
Every time someone gets tenderized by a bear up here, I am sure to hear about it from my mom.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 25, 2014, 10:59:25 PM
Every time someone gets tenderized by a bear up here, I am sure to hear about it from my mom.  :P

:lol: Those poor bears!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 25, 2014, 11:05:02 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:57:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:54:02 PM
No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

My Mom used to do stuff like that all the time. 

"I heard there was a shooting."
"That was two counties away, and it was last night."
"I know, I was just worried..."

I'm lucky my mother doesn't hear any of the local stuff. I'd have hell to pay if she heard about when those crazed lesbians got beat down by with a metal pole in that McD's around the corner, or the woman two blocks away that was killed/stuck under a truck when run over on her foot scooter, or just a few blocks away when that gay kid was shot/killed, or the middle of the day shootout with the police...etc. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 26, 2014, 01:13:37 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 10:57:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 10:54:02 PM
No, I think she was concerned I might have been caught out while it was happening. :P

My Mom used to do stuff like that all the time. 

"I heard there was a shooting."
"That was two counties away, and it was last night."
"I know, I was just worried..."


QuoteI've only protested really once and that was a gay protest, so does that even count?

I've seen gay protests, and if all protests were like that, the world would be a much happier place.

Jesus, your mother is so much like mine it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 26, 2014, 01:16:02 AM
Speaking of gay protests, they are usually peaceful but depending on a place, they can meet with violence from others. I remember there were rocks wheezing by my head at one of the early gay marches in Warsaw.

I stopped going when the ratio of gay protesters to counter-protesters reached about 20:1. Not exciting any more. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2014, 10:04:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 25, 2014, 10:00:52 PM
Then you missed my post about the Sharpton news conference.

You watch more Sharpton then Seedy does.

What can I say?  The man entertains, if often unintentionally.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:22:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 26, 2014, 01:16:02 AM
Speaking of gay protests, they are usually peaceful but depending on a place, they can meet with violence from others. I remember there were rocks wheezing by my head at one of the early gay marches in Warsaw.

I stopped going when the ratio of gay protesters to counter-protesters reached about 20:1. Not exciting any more. :P
If you're looking for a thrill support your brethren in Serbia :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 10:36:42 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:22:35 AM
If you're looking for a thrill support your brethren in Serbia :P

What's going on there?  Is Serbia emulating Russia?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:40:30 AM
Quote from: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 10:36:42 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:22:35 AM
If you're looking for a thrill support your brethren in Serbia :P

What's going on there?  Is Serbia emulating Russia?
The Balkans aren't very gay friendly. Bits of Croatia are okay because they're very touristified. But Serbia and Bosnia are pretty conservative.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on November 26, 2014, 11:09:57 AM
Quote
The Ferguson Post (https://desmondandmollyjones.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/the-ferguson-post/)

I have been avoiding writing this post because I think I'm going to lose friends by publishing it.

From my Facebook feed it seems that everyone needs to declare their membership in Team Michael Brown or Team Darren Wilson.  Well, you know what? If these are my choices I am choosing Team Absolutely Fucking No One.

Or, rather. I choose Team Equality. Team Respect. Team Empathy. Team Honesty. But not fake "honesty" like, "I don't see color! I just see people!" or "Sure, sometimes there are bad cops..."  I mean "Team Brutal Fucking Honesty." And that team requires us to join Team Empathy. You know empathy: the ability and willingness to feel and understand another person's pain without ever having experienced it yourself. The willingness to believe that such pain exists even though you have never experienced it yourself. The willingness to let go of your sense that "Such things have never happened to me so therefore I do not believe they happen." The willingness to recognize that the pain exists even if the person expressing it is an imperfect messenger.

Read the rest at the link.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 11:57:19 AM
Things in Cincy have been pretty calm, apart from a crowd of mostly hipsters making a lame attempt to emulate what other cities are doing.  That said, I'm staying out of OTR the next several days as a precaution.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 

QuoteHundreds of demonstrators turned out in Baltimore to voice frustration and solidarity with protesters in Ferguson, Mo., marching through downtown streets and shutting down the entrance to Interstate 83.

At Morgan State University, students blocked several intersections near campus, forming a giant square at Loch Raven Boulevard and Cold Spring Lane, shouting "No justice, no peace."

Protesters lined Mount Royal Avenue holding black umbrellas near the Maryland Institute College of Art, while someone used black spray paint to write "R.I.P. Michael Brown" on the side of a mobile Baltimore Police command center in South Baltimore.

Police said the demonstrations were mostly peaceful. Hourlong traffic backups caused the most commotion, with officers shutting downtown streets to allow marchers to make their way around the Inner Harbor and City Hall. Demonstrators said they just wanted people to stop and listen.

"That's the only way we're going to be heard," said Davon Perry, 26. "We have to be loud. We're just a scratch. We want to be an annoyance."

Police spokesman Detective Howard Ruganzu reported no arrests and no property damage Tuesday evening. He said one protester was hit by a truck, and officers called an ambulance to the scene. The injuries were not life-threatening.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on November 26, 2014, 12:06:38 PM
The righteous people will quell those savages.

/mono
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 12:54:23 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2849736/Church-attended-Michael-Brown-s-family-destroyed-Monday-night-s-protests.html

QuoteMissouri church attended by Michael Brown's father family was one of a dozen or so buildings burned to the ground during Monday night's protests

Pastor Carlton Lee said he believes that white supremacists rather than protesters were to blame for the destruction

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2014, 01:18:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 10:39:35 PM
Appointing a Black Avenger special prosecutor suffers from the same drawback as just charging the copper and proceeding to trial: it sets a precedent that street violence affects the workings of the criminal justice system.

Except that instead they set the even worse precedent that different prosecutorial rules apply when "friendly" law enforcement is in the dock as opposed to ordinary citizen.

This odd GJ process seems to have been an utter fiasco.  It doesn't excuse rioting but it does lend credence to the charge of a fix-up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 10:11:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.

In this jurisdiction we have a independant police investigation office which investigates all cases of death when police are present.  It was put in place to avoid the conflicts inherent in police (or those associated with the police) investigating the police in order to promote public confidence.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 01:36:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 10:11:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.

In this jurisdiction we have a independant police investigation office which investigates all cases of death when police are present.  It was put in place to avoid the conflicts inherent in police (or those associated with the police) investigating the police in order to promote public confidence.

The trouble I have with "independent police investigation" units (and, for that matter, to special prosecutors being appointed) is that you get these things being handled by people who have no idea how to do a proper investigation (or a proper prosecution).  Investigating potential criminal activity is a very specialized and difficult area, and that expertise lies entirely within the hands of the police.  Unless you're going out and only hiring retired police officers (which takes away from the supposed independence of the agency) you're just not going to get proper investigations done.

About the best we can do is have independent police agencies do these investigations, or at least have other police agencies do them.  It's not perfect but it's the best we can do.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 26, 2014, 01:50:23 PM
Certainly the larger police departments have the equivalent of that here, but the guys in the unit are still police and there are mixed levels of trust for them. The public still thinks they are part of the "thin blue line" and unlikely to honestly investigate the police, meanwhile they tend to be detested by other police since they're basically the guys who get them in trouble for fucking up.

A department like Ferguson PD with 50 sworn officers would have nothing like that.

I think one problem we have in America is elected prosecutors, I'd prefer that each State run its own prosecutor office where it's like a civil service, and head prosecutors for a given county are appointed by higher up civil servants, maybe the very top guy would report up to the State Attorney General or something (who would probably have to be elected since Americans have a lust for electing offices they shouldn't.) This is essentially how State Police departments are ran, and in general it's a good model. The top guy is usually governor appointed but everyone else is a career professional, and they usually cycle through working different areas (which I think helps insulate them from local politics.)

As it is, elections for things like judges and local prosecutors tend to be among the lowest turn out elections in all of American politics, sometimes getting like less than 10% voter turnout in the primaries. The general elections are often held along with a Congressional / Presidential election and get higher turn out, but in most places the primary is the real election for these offices. Anyway, due to the very low voter turn out, and the fact that police unions tend to get lock-step voting on issues like local prosecutors and judges, these elected officials have a very strong incentive to give special treatment to police, since they probably wouldn't be elected without them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 26, 2014, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 11:57:19 AM
Things in Cincy have been pretty calm, apart from a crowd of mostly hipsters making a lame attempt to emulate what other cities are doing.  That said, I'm staying out of OTR the next several days as a precaution.

I'm staying out of Dayton. And Trotwood.

Also, I'm making sure I have my CCW weapon with me and spare magazines.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 01:36:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 25, 2014, 10:11:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 25, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
It was a great move on the prosecutor's part, when you don't want to indict a police officer.

Right.  If he had just announced he was not going to press charges all hell would have broken loose.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think the option that would be most just (while not perfect) and most conciliatory would have been for McCulloch to step aside for a special prosecutor appointed by the Governor. A prosecutor not from the same county and someone with basically an unassailable, "I hate fucking pig cops and want to bathe in the blood of their children" reputation who also probably should be black. Likely if that person was a competent attorney they'd have to come to the conclusion Wilson would not be beatable at trial due to the witness evidence which appears contradictory (or supports Wilson's version of the events) and the physical evidence (which largely supports his version of events.)

I think if people riot after that then they were going to riot no matter what. With McCulloch's show grand jury designed from the get go not to indict a riot was guaranteed. It may have been guaranteed no matter what, admittedly.

In this jurisdiction we have a independant police investigation office which investigates all cases of death when police are present.  It was put in place to avoid the conflicts inherent in police (or those associated with the police) investigating the police in order to promote public confidence.

The trouble I have with "independent police investigation" units (and, for that matter, to special prosecutors being appointed) is that you get these things being handled by people who have no idea how to do a proper investigation (or a proper prosecution). 

Wow, what a leap of logic that was.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 02:01:12 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 26, 2014, 01:50:23 PM
Certainly the larger police departments have the equivalent of that here, but the guys in the unit are still police and there are mixed levels of trust for them. The public still thinks they are part of the "thin blue line" and unlikely to honestly investigate the police, meanwhile they tend to be detested by other police since they're basically the guys who get them in trouble for fucking up.


Not here. 

Here are two steps taken to avoid the problem

Quote•To ensure there is no perception of bias, the chief civilian director cannot be a person who is a current or former member of a police force.
•The director has the discretion to hire ex-police officers as investigators, as long as they have not served as police officers in B.C. within the past five years

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/policeservices/iio/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 26, 2014, 02:05:08 PM
That seems pretty reasonable, but would likely never happen in America. Too much of law enforcement is political here and the police unions are too powerful. Law enforcement should be a lot more like typical civil service, but isn't.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:10:35 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 26, 2014, 02:05:08 PM
That seems pretty reasonable, but would likely never happen in America. Too much of law enforcement is political here and the police unions are too powerful. Law enforcement should be a lot more like typical civil service, but isn't.

You're starting to see some of that in the Northwest, though.  I had applied for an investigator's position for a civilianized IIU up in Washington state once, detached from the LEOs yet still part of the government. 
Then again, you look at Cleveland PD, and their police union is so strong they've made sure there are no dashcams in the squad cars and you don't even have your name on your uniform, just your badge number.  So it depends on the region, some are more progressive than others.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:11:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 02:01:12 PM
Here are two steps taken to avoid the problem

Quote•To ensure there is no perception of bias, the chief civilian director cannot be a person who is a current or former member of a police force.
•The director has the discretion to hire ex-police officers as investigators, as long as they have not served as police officers in B.C. within the past five years

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/policeservices/iio/

Ide's right;  Canada is like America, only better.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 26, 2014, 02:13:07 PM
Just say no to Flannel and Canadian tuxedos.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 26, 2014, 02:05:08 PM
Law enforcement should be a lot more like typical civil service, but isn't.

First thing they need to do is stop hiring so many fucking ex-soldiers.  It all may be rank structure, but it's always been apples and PTSD oranges.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 26, 2014, 02:23:31 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 

QuoteHundreds of demonstrators turned out in Baltimore to voice frustration and solidarity with protesters in Ferguson, Mo., marching through downtown streets and shutting down the entrance to Interstate 83.

At Morgan State University, students blocked several intersections near campus, forming a giant square at Loch Raven Boulevard and Cold Spring Lane, shouting "No justice, no peace."

Protesters lined Mount Royal Avenue holding black umbrellas near the Maryland Institute College of Art, while someone used black spray paint to write "R.I.P. Michael Brown" on the side of a mobile Baltimore Police command center in South Baltimore.

Police said the demonstrations were mostly peaceful. Hourlong traffic backups caused the most commotion, with officers shutting downtown streets to allow marchers to make their way around the Inner Harbor and City Hall. Demonstrators said they just wanted people to stop and listen.

"That's the only way we're going to be heard," said Davon Perry, 26. "We have to be loud. We're just a scratch. We want to be an annoyance."

Police spokesman Detective Howard Ruganzu reported no arrests and no property damage Tuesday evening. He said one protester was hit by a truck, and officers called an ambulance to the scene. The injuries were not life-threatening.

What a Mono-like post.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:26:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 26, 2014, 02:23:31 PM
What a Mono-like post.

The weekend would've been better, and they probably would've gotten a much larger turnout.  Everybody wins.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 02:01:12 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 26, 2014, 01:50:23 PM
Certainly the larger police departments have the equivalent of that here, but the guys in the unit are still police and there are mixed levels of trust for them. The public still thinks they are part of the "thin blue line" and unlikely to honestly investigate the police, meanwhile they tend to be detested by other police since they're basically the guys who get them in trouble for fucking up.


Not here. 

Here are two steps taken to avoid the problem

Quote•To ensure there is no perception of bias, the chief civilian director cannot be a person who is a current or former member of a police force.
•The director has the discretion to hire ex-police officers as investigators, as long as they have not served as police officers in B.C. within the past five years

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/policeservices/iio/

I tried to look that up, but IIOBC's website kept timing out on me.

I'm puzzled by the five year requirement.  It seems to me you either hire ex-cops, or you don't.  Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.

Basically I'm pretty okay with what we do here - bigger agencies like  EPS and CPS have their own "internal investigations" unit.  Smaller agencies will just ask an outside police force to come in and investigate as-needed.  Prosecutions gets handled by a professional prosecutor, but from a different region - so we get Edmonton Crowns prosecuting Calgary police officers, for example.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.

It puts a dent and distance on the Buddy Network.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 26, 2014, 03:11:41 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.

It puts a dent and distance on the Buddy Network.

He brokeded my nose.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn5.movieclips.com%2Fparamount%2Ft%2Fthe-longest-yard-2005%2F0512336_15889_MC_Tx360.jpg&hash=8b52035fe43511b14ee3f2c58e26289f832ca00f)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: PJL on November 26, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 


That's exactly the sort of argument that Mono was saying a few weeks ago, and got lambasted for.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 03:40:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:11:06 PM
Ide's right;  Canada is like America, only better.

By all means, move there and be among your people.  Enjoy the football, snow, and charming accents.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on November 26, 2014, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 01:36:02 PM

The trouble I have with "independent police investigation" units (and, for that matter, to special prosecutors being appointed) is that you get these things being handled by people who have no idea how to do a proper investigation (or a proper prosecution).  Investigating potential criminal activity is a very specialized and difficult area, and that expertise lies entirely within the hands of the police.  Unless you're going out and only hiring retired police officers (which takes away from the supposed independence of the agency) you're just not going to get proper investigations done.

About the best we can do is have independent police agencies do these investigations, or at least have other police agencies do them.  It's not perfect but it's the best we can do.

I'm not sure an investigation done by the inexperienced isn't better than one done by those with a conflict of interest.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on November 26, 2014, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: PJL on November 26, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 


That's exactly the sort of argument that Mono was saying a few weeks ago, and got lambasted for.

Mono's invective was offensive, but his point is valid. You can't win hearts and minds by breaking peoples' shit and obstructing their activity. Now we've got tea party sites running around raising money to fix up that lady's cake shop that got wrecked in the riot. When those guys are thinking more clearly than you are you've got a problem.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 03:49:51 PM
Boom.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 26, 2014, 03:55:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 03:40:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 02:11:06 PM
Ide's right;  Canada is like America, only better.

By all means, move there and be among your people.  Enjoy the football, snow, and charming accents.

Heh, for snow, we are looking south of the border - at Buffalo.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 03:57:30 PM
Regardless, you know Seedy would totally lose his shit over the slightest annoyance he encounters in Canadia.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 03:57:30 PM
Regardless, you know Seedy would totally lose his shit over the slightest annoyance he encounters in Canadia.

Like Canadians?  Oh hell yeah.  Those people are monsters.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
I'm puzzled by the five year requirement.  It seems to me you either hire ex-cops, or you don't.  Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.


BB, the five year requirement only relates to police officers from this jurisdiction.  I think it is fair to assume there are a lot of good candidates in other jurisdictions.  Your assumption is not fair.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: PJL on November 26, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 


That's exactly the sort of argument that Mono was saying a few weeks ago, and got lambasted for.

Mono is rooting for the wrong side;  I'm rooting for the right side, just trying to get its message out in a more palatable, Cracker-friendly fashion.   :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 04:12:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
I'm puzzled by the five year requirement.  It seems to me you either hire ex-cops, or you don't.  Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.


BB, the five year requirement only relates to police officers from this jurisdiction.  I think it is fair to assume there are a lot of good candidates in other jurisdictions.  Your assumption is not fair.

The number of ex-cops who want to move between provinces after reaching retirement age is going to be pretty small.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 04:12:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
I'm puzzled by the five year requirement.  It seems to me you either hire ex-cops, or you don't.  Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.


BB, the five year requirement only relates to police officers from this jurisdiction.  I think it is fair to assume there are a lot of good candidates in other jurisdictions.  Your assumption is not fair.

The number of ex-cops who want to move between provinces after reaching retirement age is going to be pretty small.

And yet, by some miracle, we have a well respected non local cop dominated independant investigation office.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 04:12:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
I'm puzzled by the five year requirement.  It seems to me you either hire ex-cops, or you don't.  Waiting five years just means you're going to get ex-cops who couldn't hack it in whatever their originally planned retirement job was.


BB, the five year requirement only relates to police officers from this jurisdiction.  I think it is fair to assume there are a lot of good candidates in other jurisdictions.  Your assumption is not fair.

The number of ex-cops who want to move between provinces after reaching retirement age is going to be pretty small.

And yet, by some miracle, we have a well respected non local cop dominated independant investigation office.  Go figure.

It's a brand new organization.  The jury is still out on how well respected it is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 26, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2014, 04:25:48 PM
It's a brand new organization.  The jury is still out on how well respected it is.

They have handled a number of investigations to date. Curious as to how you can possibly make the judgment the "jury is still out" when you know nothing about it?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Monoriu on November 26, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: PJL on November 26, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
People don't realize when you're shutting down the main artery into the city, it creates a domino effect throughout the region.  I heard traffic was jacked up all the way to Howard County.
Definitely not the way to win the hearts and minds of Whitey.  Not when he just wants to get the hell home from a job he hates at the end of the day. 


That's exactly the sort of argument that Mono was saying a few weeks ago, and got lambasted for.

Mono is rooting for the wrong side;  I'm rooting for the right side, just trying to get its message out in a more palatable, Cracker-friendly fashion.   :P

We are rooting for the same side, the side against people who cause trouble  :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on November 26, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
We are rooting for the same side, the side against people who cause trouble  :hug:

Quiet, pinko.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 05:20:15 PM
Seedy and Mono, sittin' in a tree...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:21:43 PM
Save it for Megyn Kelly's upcoming FOX special:  "Ferguson on Fire:  When Negros Get All Negro-like"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 05:30:34 PM
You had me at "Megyn Kelly"  :perv:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:31:35 PM
She's so dreamy.  Shame she's so evil, but that's what makes it hotter.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2014, 05:32:27 PM
Whereas your channel has... Madcow :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 05:33:34 PM
Different kind of hot.  :mellow:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 26, 2014, 05:36:14 PM
I'd do naughty things to Alex Wanger. As long as she kept her mouth shut.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 26, 2014, 05:45:47 PM
For those of you who don't watch CNN, they've been loading up on the eye candy recently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Monoriu on November 26, 2014, 05:58:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2014, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on November 26, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
We are rooting for the same side, the side against people who cause trouble  :hug:

Quiet, pinko.

You and I, the new axis of pinko  :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 06:00:29 PM
Seedy already has more axises going on then 11 dimensional space-time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 26, 2014, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 06:00:29 PM
Seedy already has more axises going on then 11 dimensional space-time.

Axises?

Does that make him an Axisestentialist?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 07:54:28 PM
It makes him Axident waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on November 26, 2014, 07:56:11 PM
Sounds like that douchey body spray.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 26, 2014, 07:57:56 PM
:o

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parfumo.net%2Fperfum_imagery%2F6%2F9%2F49504_66c6bdfcf555f5fb17ae2dcea61d5edc_gold_temptation.jpg&hash=d609c25d43b073b783b34f8de5d2e25f7f4ae3ac)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2014, 09:50:14 PM
 :hmm:

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/07/25/st-louis-county-police-officer-charged/

QuoteCLAYTON, Mo. (AP) — A 13-year veteran of the St. Louis County Police
Department is charged with felony assault after striking a MetroLink passenger on
the hand with his expandable baton following an argument.

The county Prosecuting Attorney's Office on Friday charged 44-year-old Dawon Gore
of Ferguson with second-degree assault. He was jailed on a $3,500, cash-only bond.

Gore is accused of using excessive force against an unnamed 24-year-old light-rail
passenger in late April at the Hanley Road station in Clayton. He's been assigned to
the department's MetroLink unit since May 2012.

A police press release says the investigation was forwarded to prosecutor Bob
McCullough in early May with a recommendation to press charges.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fo3FCT1D.jpg&hash=bb37611cd90956abae94ecf85498ab47389d5e5b)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 27, 2014, 03:35:45 AM
More on the Cleveland shooting (link contains video):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/26/officials-release-video-names-in-fatal-police-shooting-of-12-year-old-cleveland-boy/

QuoteVideo shows Cleveland officer shooting 12-year-old Tamir Rice within seconds

A rookie Cleveland police officer responding to a 911 call jumped out of a cruiser and within seconds shot and killed a 12-year-old boy wielding what later turned out to be a BB gun, according to surveillance video released by authorities Wednesday.

Video of the fatal Saturday shooting of Tamir Rice, 12, by officer Timothy Loehmann, 26, was made public at the request of Tamir's family. "It is our belief that this situation could have been avoided and that Tamir should still be here with us. The video shows one thing distinctly: the police officers reacted quickly," reads a statement from the family, who also called on the community to remain calm.

The video's release comes after days of protests in Cleveland, centered on Tamir's death and also responding to the grand jury decision in the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson by a white officer.

Loehmann is white, according to public records. Officer Frank Garmback, 46, drove the patrol car. Both have been placed on administrative leave, under department policy.

"The release of this video is in no means an effort to try and explain the actions of the division of police or of the young man," Deputy Police Chief Edward Tomba said at a news conference Wednesday — hours after about 200 people protesting the fatal shooting blocked traffic on a busy Cleveland street. "We are honoring the wishes of the family in releasing this and also in the spirit of being open and fair with our community."

The grainy footage, which lacks audio, shows Tamir pacing up and down a sidewalk, swinging the gun in his hands, pointing it a few times and chatting on a cellphone.

A man shown sitting under a nearby gazebo made a 911 call, telling the dispatcher "there's a guy in here with a pistol, pointing it at everybody," according to audio of the call. The caller said the gun is "probably fake, but you know what, he's scaring the s— out of people," and later said, "I don't know if it's real or not." He described Tamir as "probably a juvenile." He eventually left the park.

But information about the gun possibly being fake wasn't mentioned to the officers in a call to them about a young black male with a gun in a park.

Tamir eventually sat alone under the gazebo. The video then shows the police car pulling right up to the structure. Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car, Tomba said. Loehmann exited the car, and within two seconds, shot Tamir from about 10 feet away.

Police had earlier said two shots were fired by a single officer, and that Tamir had reached into his waistband when Loehmann shouted the commands.

The gun turned out to be an Airsoft gun. Authorities had said it resembled a semiautomatic handgun and lacked the orange safety marker intended to signal that it's a fake.

"Shots fired, male down, um, black male, maybe 20," one of the officers radioed in. "Black hand gun."

Within four minutes of the shooting, two other law enforcement officials arrived, and one performed first aid on Tamir, Tomba said. An ambulance came minutes later. Tamir died from his wound on Sunday.

Loehmann has been a Cleveland police officer since March. Garmback, a certified field training officer, joined the force in February 2008. They have both given statements and police are still looking for witnesses, including one other person shown walking with Tamir, officials said.

Results from the police investigation will be sent to the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office, which could ask for additional work. The evidence will be presented to a grand jury for possible charges, as is the policy with all fatal police shootings.

Last year, the U.S. Justice Department opened an investigation into the Cleveland Police over allegations of excessive and unreasonable deadly force.

In a statement earlier this week, Tamir's family said: "While we request the release of the complete video, we also ask for the media to give our family privacy as we continue to grieve and learn about what happened."

"We feel he did not deserve to be taken away from us," the statement read.

Cleveland Police Chief Calvin Williams requested the public respect the highly-sensitive nature of the video. "This is 12 year old boy. We want people to view this video with that in mind," he said Wednesday.

Within hours of the video's release Wednesday, several Cleveland organizations called to demonstrate the shooting, according to the Plain Dealer. About 200 protesters had gathered in a city square the night before and spilled into the street in a mostly peaceful protest, the paper reported.

By early Wednesday night, a handful of protesters had come out, but the video's release didn't spark immediate mass demonstrations.

"Please protest peacefully and responsibly," Tamir's family statement read. "Your prayers, kind words and condolences have meant so much to us. We understand that some of you are hurt, angry and sad about our loss."

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson said Wednesday that Tamir's death wasn't connected to what was happening in Ferguson.

"Whether there was Ferguson there or not, that doesn't matter to me. What mattered to me was it happened in Cleveland, and it happened to a child," Jackson said. "It's about the child, the loss of his life, the grieving of his family, and what we have to do as a community."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 27, 2014, 03:44:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2014, 09:50:14 PM
:hmm:

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/07/25/st-louis-county-police-officer-charged/

QuoteCLAYTON, Mo. (AP) — A 13-year veteran of the St. Louis County Police
Department is charged with felony assault after striking a MetroLink passenger on
the hand with his expandable baton following an argument.

The county Prosecuting Attorney's Office on Friday charged 44-year-old Dawon Gore
of Ferguson with second-degree assault. He was jailed on a $3,500, cash-only bond.

Gore is accused of using excessive force against an unnamed 24-year-old light-rail
passenger in late April at the Hanley Road station in Clayton. He's been assigned to
the department's MetroLink unit since May 2012.

A police press release says the investigation was forwarded to prosecutor Bob
McCullough in early May with a recommendation to press charges.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fo3FCT1D.jpg&hash=bb37611cd90956abae94ecf85498ab47389d5e5b)

I thought America's laws stated quite clearly that if a black hits a white, the black's arm should be cut off, no?  :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 03:58:14 AM
That doesn't tell us enough to be useful.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:04:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 27, 2014, 03:35:45 AM
More on the Cleveland shooting (link contains video):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/26/officials-release-video-names-in-fatal-police-shooting-of-12-year-old-cleveland-boy/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/26/officials-release-video-names-in-fatal-police-shooting-of-12-year-old-cleveland-boy/)


Yeah, I won't defend police action on that one.  That's fucked up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 27, 2014, 04:09:38 AM
I will view the video at home and reserve to reverse my judgment till then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
I dunno, you see the police cruiser roll up (on the grass too, probably would have been wiser to come in a from a little more distance)...and I am presuming the cop who fired came from the passenger side...and the kid is reaching into his pants right as they come up, probably just as he is opening the door.  That leaves him almost no time to avoid getting shot at point blank range if that gun were real.

Very hard to say it's cut and dry wrong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:27 AM
If one were to follow the Russian media, you'd think the entire US is engulfed in racial violence and being burned down in riots.

And from the spokesman from the Russian Foreign Ministry:

Quote"Such a large-scale explosion of popular indignation and disproportionate reaction of law enforcement agencies reaffirm that this is not an isolated incident, but the systemic flaws of American democracy, and not able to overcome the deep racial divide, discrimination and inequality. That black citizens remain socially unprotected part of the American population, are regularly subjected to violence and harassment by law enforcement agencies. "
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 04:46:32 AM
This most recent one does not look good for the cops.  Probably the first time I've said that about a cop incident.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 09:32:27 AM
It is odd that the shooting of the 12 year old isn't getting public traction like the other case. It is a far more obvious case, judging by the video, of the cops screwing up. They basically drive up, hop out, and shoot the kid.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
Yeah, I think these incidents are an expected result of training. My understanding is that under the mantra of officer safety police are taught to react mechanically and instantaneously to situations like this, and specifically they're trained to look at the hands of a person they encounter above anything else. One guy on CNN said it's likely the cop who shot didn't even see it was a kid, because he was so keyed on the hands, his mind went "hands...gun, gun being raised...must shoot" in about 1.5 seconds time. Probably legit didn't know it was a kid until after they went over to him afterward.

It's in a way similar to how raw recruits in the military are drilled, you want them to react a certain way in combat and so to do that you ingrain in them over and over again that this is the way to act. The military however rarely deals with gray areas, and when it does it does so poorly (which is why an occupation army is a really bad police force.)

When the current NYPD Commissioner was a uniformed cop back in the 1970s he first got notoriety when he stopped an armed robbery. The robber had a gun out and was holding a woman hostage. Bratton was right there essentially a few feet away, and talked the guy down. This day and age it feels like you don't have police who do that anymore because they're trained to respond to any threat to their lives with lethal force. In Bratton's day they were expected to exercise more judgment, and to *gasp* even perhaps risk their lives if necessary for the good of the populace they're supposed to protect. I can't see a 1970s cop (as a rule) shooting a little kid even with a real gun, he'd be trying to get the gun out of the kid's hand. In 2014 I think it'd be the rare cop that would have acted differently in this situation, given how cops are trained.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 09:32:27 AM
It is odd that the shooting of the 12 year old isn't getting public traction like the other case. It is a far more obvious case, judging by the video, of the cops screwing up. They basically drive up, hop out, and shoot the kid.

It isn't though. Remember the original narrative that was spread about Darren Wilson / Michael Brown was that Brown fled, surrendered, and was literally on his knees with his hands up and Wilson shot him in the back repeatedly and killed him, execution style. This was enough of a narrative that it was even addressed in the grand jury. There's not a single witness of course, even the ones who presented testimony the most injurious to Wilson, that tells a story anywhere close to that. But that of course doesn't matter to the people who are wanting to get people riled up over issues like this.

Once that story hit the airwaves, it guaranteed some protest. Then the Ferguson PD reacted to what were initially mild protests like Nazi Stormtroppers, which then caused this whole thing to blow up. So the Ferguson story's reality may be more benign than this, but it started out as a much more incendiary story. Then, the Ferguson police poured gasoline on what was a relatively controlled low fire to turn it into a conflagration.

There have already been protests in Cleveland over this, the police essentially have ignored them/left them alone.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 09:39:33 AM
Fair points. That makes sense.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:27 AM
If one were to follow the Russian media, you'd think the entire US is engulfed in racial violence and being burned down in riots.

And from the spokesman from the Russian Foreign Ministry:

Quote"Such a large-scale explosion of popular indignation and disproportionate reaction of law enforcement agencies reaffirm that this is not an isolated incident, but the systemic flaws of American democracy, and not able to overcome the deep racial divide, discrimination and inequality. That black citizens remain socially unprotected part of the American population, are regularly subjected to violence and harassment by law enforcement agencies. "
That said, the Russian forums are far less gleeful than you might expect.  Russians are more virulent racists than they are anti-Americans, most of the comments are about how the blacks should be re-enslaved/deported to Africa/exterminated.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
I dunno, you see the police cruiser roll up (on the grass too, probably would have been wiser to come in a from a little more distance)...and I am presuming the cop who fired came from the passenger side...and the kid is reaching into his pants right as they come up, probably just as he is opening the door.  That leaves him almost no time to avoid getting shot at point blank range if that gun were real.

Very hard to say it's cut and dry wrong.

From the video, it looked to me like a justifiable shooting.  An unfortunate one, but justifiable. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 27, 2014, 12:44:36 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:27 AM
If one were to follow the Russian media, you'd think the entire US is engulfed in racial violence and being burned down in riots.

And from the spokesman from the Russian Foreign Ministry:

Quote"Such a large-scale explosion of popular indignation and disproportionate reaction of law enforcement agencies reaffirm that this is not an isolated incident, but the systemic flaws of American democracy, and not able to overcome the deep racial divide, discrimination and inequality. That black citizens remain socially unprotected part of the American population, are regularly subjected to violence and harassment by law enforcement agencies. "


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/soviet-propaganda-back-in-play-with-ferguson-coverage/511975.html

QuoteSoviet Propaganda Back in Play With Ferguson Coverage

Those relying on Russia's state-run media right now are probably under the impression that all of America is up in flames and on the brink of imploding because the U.S. government is tyrannical and has been oppressing the underdogs for too long — and Ferguson is proof. 

In the Russian press, what started out as protests following Monday's decision not to indict the white police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black teenager in a small town in Missouri back in August has morphed into an existential crisis worthy of front-page stories and hour-long segments on state-run television.

Why should these protests warrant so much attention not only from Russia's state-run media, but also from the Foreign Ministry? Why has the late 18-year-old Michael Brown become such a cause celebre to Russians ranging from minor political figures to regular police officers, all of whom have portrayed the incident and current rioting as proof of oppression and human rights violations by U.S. authorities?

The attention given to this case is especially puzzling when one thinks back to February 2012, when the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin triggered similar protests in the U.S. Why was Martin's face not splashed across the covers of Russian newspapers next to proclamations of the U.S. racial divide? Where was Russia's bleeding heart then?

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the most likely one: Martin, a black, unarmed high school student, was shot long before the Ukraine crisis, long before Russian media needed a distraction for its domestic audience.

And the U.S. protests are the perfect distraction: The image of the U.S. descending into chaos as the oppressed rise up against the oppressors comes straight out of the Soviet propaganda playbook.

So does the racial aspect of the Ferguson shooting. American racism provided a go-to argument of American hypocrisy for years under the Soviet Union, with phrases like "Well, you lynch negroes" hurled back at the U.S. in response to any allegations of human rights violations in the Soviet Union.

Racial discrimination in the West dominated Soviet propaganda and featured heavily in all forms of media, even comics and science fiction novels. Portraying the West as a racist hellhole masquerading as a just superpower not only took the U.S. down a notch, it also puffed the Soviet Union up in the eyes of its domestic audience, making it look more like the utopia it pretended to be.

The same tactic is being used by Russia's state-run media now. The events in Ferguson and related protests have managed to edge out the Ukraine crisis, with montages of rioting in the U.S. relegating the Ukraine crisis to the sidelines.

On Thursday, Ferguson was the top news story on the English-language website of Sputnik, the freshly unveiled state-run news agency with tentacles extending to numerous continents in dozens of languages.

Images of Michael Brown and burning police cars were accompanied by headlines like "Seething America: Waves of Discontent Flood Almost 40 States" (Vesti) and "Americans Stocking Up on Weapons After Ferguson" (NTV).

But the hysteria over Ferguson wasn't limited to the media. In fact, the media was simply echoing the message sent by representatives of the Foreign Ministry.

On Tuesday, Alexander Lukashevich, the official spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, denounced the U.S. authorities' "heavy-handed response" to events in a three-minute video posted to YouTube.

"People who were just trying to express their stance as civilians were met with a harsh rebuff by the police ... such a large-scale outburst of the public's resentment and the disproportionate reaction by law enforcement authorities once again shows that we are talking not about an isolated incident, but systemic flaws in American democracy, which hasn't been able to overcome a deep racial divide, discrimination, and inequality," Lukashevich said, adding that African-Americans regularly face attacks and harassment in the U.S.

In closing, Lukashevich "reminds" the U.S. of its "need to meet the obligations it has taken on to uphold democratic principles," adding that "Moscow is following the tense situation in Ferguson with concern."

Even ordinary Russian police officers have been used to shame the U.S. authorities for the events in Missouri, with the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper offering commentary from Mikhail Pashkin, head of the Moscow Police Union.

"It would have been sufficient to simply wound him [Brown] in the leg," Pashkin said of the shooting, according to the report. "But they have a different way of treating blacks in America."

That such a wide array of people should jump on the Ferguson bandwagon with such strong statements is an indication that the distraction is working — and it is greatly needed in light of Russia's own economic problems and increasing isolation on the world stage.

There is no doubt that the U.S. has plenty of flaws to fix, and the protests over Ferguson have most certainly thrust this into the spotlight.

But comparing the Ferguson protests to "Obama's Maidan" — an analogy that has dominated much of the Russian media this week — says more about those making the comparison than anything else.

And it reeks of desperation. The reliable Soviet trick of shouting "Look, a racist!" any time a problem at home threatens to rear its ugly head may be effective for now, but the fact that Moscow has resorted to this only reveals its own insecurities.

Coming from a place where spontaneous protests are not just broken up but banned by law, this preaching about how to handle public discontentment just seems like grasping at straws.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 09:32:27 AM
They basically drive up, the subject at close range reaches to his belt line brandishing the butt of a firearm after being ordered from the passenger window to raise his hands, hop out, and shoot the kid.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 12:58:28 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
I can't see a 1970s cop (as a rule) shooting a little kid even with a real gun, he'd be trying to get the gun out of the kid's hand. In 2014 I think it'd be the rare cop that would have acted differently in this situation, given how cops are trained.

Kids in the 1970's didn't carry guns.  In an age where 10 year olds are shooting each other, training changes with the times.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 01:12:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
Yeah, I think these incidents are an expected result of training. My understanding is that under the mantra of officer safety police are taught to react mechanically and instantaneously to situations like this, and specifically they're trained to look at the hands of a person they encounter above anything else. One guy on CNN said it's likely the cop who shot didn't even see it was a kid, because he was so keyed on the hands, his mind went "hands...gun, gun being raised...must shoot" in about 1.5 seconds time. Probably legit didn't know it was a kid until after they went over to him afterward.

It's in a way similar to how raw recruits in the military are drilled, you want them to react a certain way in combat and so to do that you ingrain in them over and over again that this is the way to act. The military however rarely deals with gray areas, and when it does it does so poorly (which is why an occupation army is a really bad police force.)

Obviously my experience about police use of force training is from Canada, but up here you're quite wrong about how they're taught.  They're taught they need to continuously assess throughout the process, emphasizing that the situation is going to be constantly evolving as new factors present themselves.  In particular they are never taught that they must do any particular response.  There are situations where police use of deadly force may be appropriate, but it is never mandated.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 01:12:09 PM
Obviously my experience about police use of force training is from Canada, but up here you're quite wrong about how they're taught.  They're taught they need to continuously assess throughout the process, emphasizing that the situation is going to be constantly evolving as new factors present themselves.  In particular they are never taught that they must do any particular response.  There are situations where police use of deadly force may be appropriate, but it is never mandated.

In Maryland, you go through roughly 2 weeks' worth of practical scenario training;  some departments wait until near the end of the academy class, others like the state police, do it staggered through the academy.  Scenarios, from traffic stops to domestic violence calls to situations where the information is just plain wrong, are designed for variability and other factors. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 01:12:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
Yeah, I think these incidents are an expected result of training. My understanding is that under the mantra of officer safety police are taught to react mechanically and instantaneously to situations like this, and specifically they're trained to look at the hands of a person they encounter above anything else. One guy on CNN said it's likely the cop who shot didn't even see it was a kid, because he was so keyed on the hands, his mind went "hands...gun, gun being raised...must shoot" in about 1.5 seconds time. Probably legit didn't know it was a kid until after they went over to him afterward.

It's in a way similar to how raw recruits in the military are drilled, you want them to react a certain way in combat and so to do that you ingrain in them over and over again that this is the way to act. The military however rarely deals with gray areas, and when it does it does so poorly (which is why an occupation army is a really bad police force.)

Obviously my experience about police use of force training is from Canada, but up here you're quite wrong about how they're taught.  They're taught they need to continuously assess throughout the process, emphasizing that the situation is going to be constantly evolving as new factors present themselves.  In particular they are never taught that they must do any particular response.  There are situations where police use of deadly force may be appropriate, but it is never mandated.

:yes:

The first thing the police wrong in this case was drive up so close so as to reduce their options. 

The other thing that baffles me is that the guy who made the call to police was sitting there watching the kid play with the snow.  Why he didnt think that he ought to call back to advise the police that it was just a kid and that he wasnt being threatened in any way is beyond me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 01:12:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 27, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
Yeah, I think these incidents are an expected result of training. My understanding is that under the mantra of officer safety police are taught to react mechanically and instantaneously to situations like this, and specifically they're trained to look at the hands of a person they encounter above anything else. One guy on CNN said it's likely the cop who shot didn't even see it was a kid, because he was so keyed on the hands, his mind went "hands...gun, gun being raised...must shoot" in about 1.5 seconds time. Probably legit didn't know it was a kid until after they went over to him afterward.

It's in a way similar to how raw recruits in the military are drilled, you want them to react a certain way in combat and so to do that you ingrain in them over and over again that this is the way to act. The military however rarely deals with gray areas, and when it does it does so poorly (which is why an occupation army is a really bad police force.)

Obviously my experience about police use of force training is from Canada, but up here you're quite wrong about how they're taught.  They're taught they need to continuously assess throughout the process, emphasizing that the situation is going to be constantly evolving as new factors present themselves.  In particular they are never taught that they must do any particular response.  There are situations where police use of deadly force may be appropriate, but it is never mandated.

I don't know how they're trained here or anywhere else, just was repeating the talking head "expert" who said these cops are trained to almost exclusively look at the hands of someone they're first approaching.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 01:29:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 01:19:34 PM
The first thing the police wrong in this case was drive up so close so as to reduce their options. 

You roll up close so you can communicate, and you don't have to run after his ass.  Also, your car is barrier if there is a problem, particularly on a gun call.  Parking out in the street widens the field of fire.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 01:35:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 01:19:34 PM
The other thing that baffles me is that the guy who made the call to police was sitting there watching the kid play with the snow.  Why he didnt think that he ought to call back to advise the police that it was just a kid and that he wasnt being threatened in any way is beyond me.

Because the public at large does stupid things.  You should know that just from the morning commute.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 01:39:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 01:29:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 01:19:34 PM
The first thing the police wrong in this case was drive up so close so as to reduce their options. 

You roll up close so you can communicate, and you don't have to run after his ass.  Also, your car is barrier if there is a problem, particularly on a gun call.  Parking out in the street widens the field of fire.

To contrast that practice, a number of years ago there was a guy sitting on some public steps across from my office with what looked like a handgun.  The police responded by setting up a permiter a block away and then starting communications with him.  Having to run after someone seems to be a minor inconvenience compared to compressing the time to make a decision and making this kind of mistake.


The result in the incident I witnessed?  The gun was real.  The police talked him into leaving the gun on the ground and then walk toward them and then took him into custody.  The whole thing took a number of hours.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 01:43:03 PM
I suspect there are less calls for handguns there than in Cleveland, so I can understand why it would be a big event.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 01:48:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 01:43:03 PM
I suspect there are less calls for handguns there than in Cleveland, so I can understand why it would be a big event.

Yeah, I had typed that police there probably dont have the resources to handle the matter in the same way given the relative number of guns.  But I deleted that part before hitting post because I didnt want to stir up the gun nuts.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
I dunno, you see the police cruiser roll up (on the grass too, probably would have been wiser to come in a from a little more distance)...and I am presuming the cop who fired came from the passenger side...and the kid is reaching into his pants right as they come up, probably just as he is opening the door.  That leaves him almost no time to avoid getting shot at point blank range if that gun were real.

Very hard to say it's cut and dry wrong.

From the video, it looked to me like a justifiable shooting.  An unfortunate one, but justifiable.

If cops shooting a kid (who as it turns out was playing with a toy gun in a playground) pretty well the second they arrive is "justifiable" according to cop training because of the potential risk to the cop, there is a significant problem with (1) that training, (2) that society, or (3) both.

Seems to me that no attempt whatsoever was made to determine whether this was a situation that required use of deadly force or not. Just an almost instinctual reaction - the kid made a sudden move (that I can't actually see clearly on the vid) with the gun replica, and is shot on the spot.

Edit: watched the critical second again. I simply can't see the sudden movement on that tape.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 02:03:16 PM
Here is the description from the Post article:

QuoteTamir eventually sat alone under the gazebo. The video then shows the police car pulling right up to the structure. Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car, Tomba said. Loehmann exited the car, and within two seconds, shot Tamir from about 10 feet away.

Police had earlier said two shots were fired by a single officer, and that Tamir had reached into his waistband when Loehmann shouted the commands.

This can't be completely true, looking at the video. The kid never "approached the car". The officers did not have time to shout "three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car" - they basically drive up jump out and shoot him within two seconds. I cannot actually see whether the kid "reached into his waistband" but that one may be true - can't tell. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 27, 2014, 02:08:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
I dunno, you see the police cruiser roll up (on the grass too, probably would have been wiser to come in a from a little more distance)...and I am presuming the cop who fired came from the passenger side...and the kid is reaching into his pants right as they come up, probably just as he is opening the door.  That leaves him almost no time to avoid getting shot at point blank range if that gun were real.

Very hard to say it's cut and dry wrong.

From the video, it looked to me like a justifiable shooting.  An unfortunate one, but justifiable.

If cops shooting a kid (who as it turns out was playing with a toy gun in a playground) pretty well the second they arrive is "justifiable" according to cop training because of the potential risk to the cop, there is a significant problem with (1) that training, (2) that society, or (3) both.

Seems to me that no attempt whatsoever was made to determine whether this was a situation that required use of deadly force or not. Just an almost instinctual reaction - the kid made a sudden move (that I can't actually see clearly on the vid) with the gun replica, and is shot on the spot.

Edit: watched the critical second again. I simply can't see the sudden movement on that tape.

Neither, it's a worthy sacred offering on the high alter to the 2nd/4th/5th or 89th* whatever amendment.





* I can't be arsed to recall exactly which one it is and besides if you were to listen to some of the gun nuts, its sounds like it's the only one that's important.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 27, 2014, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 02:03:16 PM
Here is the description from the Post article:

QuoteTamir eventually sat alone under the gazebo. The video then shows the police car pulling right up to the structure. Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car, Tomba said. Loehmann exited the car, and within two seconds, shot Tamir from about 10 feet away.

Police had earlier said two shots were fired by a single officer, and that Tamir had reached into his waistband when Loehmann shouted the commands.

This can't be completely true, looking at the video. The kid never "approached the car". The officers did not have time to shout "three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car" - they basically drive up jump out and shoot him within two seconds. I cannot actually see whether the kid "reached into his waistband" but that one may be true - can't tell.

Sounds more like what happens in some South American countries were the local cops decide to cleans an area of street kids.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 02:03:16 PM
Here is the description from the Post article:

QuoteTamir eventually sat alone under the gazebo. The video then shows the police car pulling right up to the structure. Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car, Tomba said. Loehmann exited the car, and within two seconds, shot Tamir from about 10 feet away.

Police had earlier said two shots were fired by a single officer, and that Tamir had reached into his waistband when Loehmann shouted the commands.

This can't be completely true, looking at the video. The kid never "approached the car". The officers did not have time to shout "three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car" - they basically drive up jump out and shoot him within two seconds. I cannot actually see whether the kid "reached into his waistband" but that one may be true - can't tell.

The only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 02:28:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:15:06 PM

The only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were.

Even then, it would not be true.

The impression given by the police statement is that they yelled at the kid 'as he approached the car' - meaning, the kid deliberately ignored the cops, while advancing on the cops. Yelling from the car as the car approached the kid isn't the same.

I'm usually one willing to give cops the benefit of doubt, making split-second decisions. I simply can't on this one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:32:37 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 02:28:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:15:06 PM

The only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were.

Even then, it would not be true.

The impression given by the police statement is that they yelled at the kid 'as he approached the car' - meaning, the kid deliberately ignored the cops, while advancing on the cops. Yelling from the car as the car approached the kid isn't the same.

I'm usually one willing to give cops the benefit of doubt, making split-second decisions. I simply can't on this one.

Yeah, true enough.  Sounds like they are trying to justify after the fact what they know they did wrong.  Its a lot like the Polish guy that was killed at the airport here.  The police version of events made sense up until the video was released...  That was the event that caused our independant investigations office to be created.  It had been recommended for years but when it became clear that the police had botched the investigation public support for an independant office became very strong.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 02:39:13 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 02:03:16 PM
This can't be completely true, looking at the video. The kid never "approached the car". The officers did not have time to shout "three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car" - they basically drive up jump out and shoot him within two seconds. I cannot actually see whether the kid "reached into his waistband" but that one may be true - can't tell.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/26/officials-release-video-names-in-fatal-police-shooting-of-12-year-old-cleveland-boy/?hpid=z5

You see him walking towards the car as it is approaching from 1:30;  he is wearing a gray sweatshirt;  at 1:34, prior to bending forward from the shot, the belly area is no longer gray, because he has pulled his sweatshirt up.

And yes, CC, it's a gun call, he probably was getting yelled at as the car was rolling up and before he got out.  These things are not done in silence.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 03:01:53 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
I dunno, you see the police cruiser roll up (on the grass too, probably would have been wiser to come in a from a little more distance)...and I am presuming the cop who fired came from the passenger side...and the kid is reaching into his pants right as they come up, probably just as he is opening the door.  That leaves him almost no time to avoid getting shot at point blank range if that gun were real.

Very hard to say it's cut and dry wrong.

From the video, it looked to me like a justifiable shooting.  An unfortunate one, but justifiable.

Agree.  I see faults on both sides...in that neither side should have put themselves into that position.  The kid shouldn't have been playing with something that anyone else would think is a real gun...and from how the video looks, the cops shouldn't have rolled up onto the scene in the way they did, putting themselves practically right in the kid's face.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns.  Don't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand or appreciate, but then again, I do.  Because everybody else fucking knows better.   

But I am through arguing police responses to inner city gun calls with sanctimonious Canadians and a Pinochet-obsessed Brit.  South America.  Kiss my ass.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 03:19:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns.  Don't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand or appreciate, but then again, I do.  Because everybody else fucking knows better.   

But I am through arguing police responses to inner city gun calls with sanctimonious Canadians and a Pinochet-obsessed Brit.  South America.  Kiss my ass.

Lol, of course the only reason the officers only had a split second to react was entirely of their own making....
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 03:19:12 PM
Lol, of course the only reason the officers only had a split second to react was entirely of their own making....

Lol, no.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 03:40:51 PM
I'm having a hard time distinguishing "showed a gun in his waistband" and just walking along.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 03:40:51 PM
I'm having a hard time distinguishing "showed a gun in his waistband" and just walking along.

Lifting up or opening the coat so the gun is visible, presumably.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
And most likely trying to show them it was just a toy
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
And most likely trying to show them it was just a toy

And you say that based on what exactly?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 03:59:43 PM
"Come on, it's isn't real, guys.  Here, look inside the barrel, see the bits of the orange cap still left?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 27, 2014, 04:04:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns. 
......

How many white guys, legally conceal carrying, get killed a year by cops who misinterpret what they're doing with their clothing/jacket?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 27, 2014, 04:04:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns. 
......

How many white guys, legally conceal carrying, get killed a year by cops who misinterpret what they're doing with their clothing/jacket?

A. I'm pretty sure 12 years olds can't get concealed carry permits
B. Police were specifically called about a boy with a gun
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:08:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns.  Don't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand or appreciate, but then again, I do.  Because everybody else fucking knows better.   

But I am through arguing police responses to inner city gun calls with sanctimonious Canadians and a Pinochet-obsessed Brit.  South America.  Kiss my ass.

How can the fact it is a kid in a playground (as opposed to, say, a masked thug in a bank robbery) not even be relevant to the police choice of response?

I get that the cops could not tell if it was a real gun, but surely context makes some difference here?

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 27, 2014, 04:04:34 PM
How many white guys, legally conceal carrying, get killed a year by cops who misinterpret what they're doing with their clothing/jacket?

I don't know the statistics, but when derspiess gets shot hopefully he'll post about it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
And most likely trying to show them it was just a toy

And you say that based on what exactly?

That he had a toy.  It seems unlikely to attempt to show that he had a real gun since he didn't have one, or to shoot the police due to the lack of a real gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:17:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

That would not be my first thought.  Mine would be that I was in the way, or that they were after someone.  Now admittedly I don't have the clear headedness of a gradeschooler.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 27, 2014, 04:18:04 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

So not quite enough time to allow you to type those four words.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:17:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

That would not be my first thought.  Mine would be that I was in the way, or that they were after someone.  Now admittedly I don't have the clear headedness of a gradeschooler.
Being 12 doesn't make you a mental cripple.  You're old enough to know that cops can shoot at you mistakenly if they think you have a gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:19:54 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
And most likely trying to show them it was just a toy

And you say that based on what exactly?

The fact he didnt have a real gun and if the police report is accurate they were yelling at him about a gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:22:13 PM
Speaking of videos, is there dashcam footage?  I would imagine that in most cop cars the camera is always on if your lights are on.  That should provide the audio part of the story that is sorely missing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:08:07 PM
How can the fact it is a kid in a playground (as opposed to, say, a masked thug in a bank robbery) not even be relevant to the police choice of response?

I get that the cops could not tell if it was a real gun, but surely context makes some difference here?

A gun is just as dangerous at a playground as it is in bank robbery. 

But this is the American-Canadian disconnect at work here, where your idea of some idyllic sylvan playground full of happy children and unicorns is different than the reality of a playground in east Cleveland.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:22:13 PM
Speaking of videos, is there dashcam footage?  I would imagine that in most cop cars the camera is always on if your lights are on.  That should provide the audio part of the story that is sorely missing.

It's Cleveland PD.  No dashcams.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:23:29 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

Looking at the video, it doesn't appear they were running up with lights (cannot tell about sirens).  And I think hard-charging up onto the grass right into things was probably a bad call on the cops' part.

Kid was pretty irresponsible playing about with a toy gun like he did...but I also have to remember my childhood.  We'd play with battery-powered water guns, black-plastic (no caps) assault weapons (they were modeled off of real guns too!) that looked like something ISIS would envy having.  Cops today would not have loved seeing them.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:23:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:17:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

That would not be my first thought.  Mine would be that I was in the way, or that they were after someone.  Now admittedly I don't have the clear headedness of a gradeschooler.
Being 12 doesn't make you a mental cripple.  You're old enough to know that cops can shoot at you mistakenly if they think you have a gun.

I didn't grow up in the Soviet Union so when I was out playing as a kid I wasn't thinking that cops would shoot me because they mistook my toy gun for a real one.  I also didn't think about getting a commercial license for a lemonade stand or about moving violations while riding a bike.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:08:07 PM
How can the fact it is a kid in a playground (as opposed to, say, a masked thug in a bank robbery) not even be relevant to the police choice of response?

I get that the cops could not tell if it was a real gun, but surely context makes some difference here?

A gun is just as dangerous at a playground as it is in bank robbery. 

But this is the American-Canadian disconnect at work here, where your idea of some idyllic sylvan playground full of happy children and unicorns is different than the reality of a playground in east Cleveland.  :P

Well, I'm certainly glad I don't live in a place where there is literally no difference between a playground and the site of a bank robbery in progress.  :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

That's not the issue in my post.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:26:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2014, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:08:07 PM
How can the fact it is a kid in a playground (as opposed to, say, a masked thug in a bank robbery) not even be relevant to the police choice of response?

I get that the cops could not tell if it was a real gun, but surely context makes some difference here?

A gun is just as dangerous at a playground as it is in bank robbery. 

But this is the American-Canadian disconnect at work here, where your idea of some idyllic sylvan playground full of happy children and unicorns is different than the reality of a playground in east Cleveland.  :P

Well, I'm certainly glad I don't live in a place where there is literally no difference between a playground and the site of a bank robbery in progress.  :huh:

:yes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:29:46 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

If they had no way of knowing if a gun is real or not or is even there then perhaps they should alter the way they do things so that they get more information before shooting at people?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:31:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

The difference between a kid holding a replica gun, and two police officers with real guns, is that the former lacks any training as to what to do in a confrontation, and no ability to harm anyone during that confrontation. I'm going out on a limb here and holding professional cops to a somewhat higher standard of reaction when the latter shoots the former -partucularly where, as here, his 'bad acts' appear to consist of (1) failure to put his hands up in time, and (2) perhaps, showing the gun in his waistband.

If (2) is accurate, we obviously don't know why he did it - was he showing it because the cops were there, and he didn't want them to think he was hiding it? Was he showing it to say 'look, it's just a toy'? One thing is for sure - he wasn't planning on shooting the cops with it.

Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

That's not the issue in my post.

For me, I don't think the video quality is clear, or smooth enough to distinguish if the kid is just "displaying" the weapon, or going so far as to reach and draw.  Just barely enough to give the impression it is one of those actions.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:31:37 PM
I don't know if it's different in the US (given the easy availability of real handguns) but up here those airsoft pellet guns are moderately popular with wanna-be gangbangers precisely because they look a heck of a lot like a real handgun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:33:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:31:37 PM
I don't know if it's different in the US (given the easy availability of real handguns) but up here those airsoft pellet guns are moderately popular with wanna-be gangbangers precisely because they look a heck of a lot like a real handgun.

I am sure they are.  And probably no small amount of kids in bad neighborhoods get them because they're afraid of those with the real guns, but not "hard" enough to get a real gun, or feel comfortable handling one, themselves.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:36:02 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:31:23 PM

For me, I don't think the video quality is clear, or smooth enough to distinguish if the kid is just "displaying" the weapon, or going so far as to reach and draw.  Just barely enough to give the impression it is one of those actions.

The cops may not know that the gun is a replica, but the kid certainly knew.

What possible point could there have been to draw a replica on the cops - even for a dumb-ass 12 year old?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.
Maybe the would wonder, but while wondering, they wouldn't make any moves that could be misinterpreted.  It's not police state thing, it's just common sense, same reason why it's a good idea to have your hands on the wheel while pulled over.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:37:40 PM
QuoteThe cops may not know that the gun is a replica, but the kid certainly knew.

What possible point could there have been to draw a replica on the cops - even for a dumb-ass 12 year old?

I think in the world and mindset of being a cop, it is dealing with a segment of the population (white or black) that does pointless things 90% of the time.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:40:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.

Not doing anything wrong?  Did you see the rest of the video where the kid is brandishing the (apparent to everyone else but the kid) weapon in a reckless enough manner that a bystander calls the police?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:40:49 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

I think this is one of the key differences between the attitude towards the police in the US and elsewhere I'm familiar with (Canada, parts of Europe).

In the US, what you posted seems to constitute enough of a reason to clear the officers of wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I would think it would be taken as evidence that the cops had seriously fucked up.

Shooting a 12 year old with a toy gun because you didn't realize he was a kid with a plastic toy rather than someone trying to kill you indicates that the officers approached the situation in the wrong way; maybe they didn't murder the child, but it sure seems to be some sort of manslaughter/ negligent homicide.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:41:14 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

There would be a huge outcry, for sure, and murder charges laid. There is even when the cops shoot someone undoubtedly threatening others with a knife.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/sammyyatim.html

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/07/30/toronto_cop_charged_with_attempted_murder_in_sammy_yatim_shooting.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:41:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:23:56 PM
I didn't grow up in the Soviet Union so when I was out playing as a kid I wasn't thinking that cops would shoot me because they mistook my toy gun for a real one.  I also didn't think about getting a commercial license for a lemonade stand or about moving violations while riding a bike.
A swing and a miss.  In Soviet Union cops were actually very unlikely to shoot you, because they weren't allowed to unless the situation has become really obviously dangerous 15 minutes ago.  They were also obligated to fire in the air before firing at you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It's funny, I have no problem shooting from the hip about topics I have only a passing familiarity with.

But since I have written a number of opinions on potential charges against police officers, I would want to see all the witness statements before coming to an opinion.  Sometimes it's what seems like innocuous details at first are what decides whether or not to prosecute.

The thing to remember is that in Canada, given we have orders of magnitude less handguns than in the US, police can afford to be a little more trusting than in the US.

Here's the RCMP Use of Force policy if you're curious.  Ultimately though it always comes down to what the officer was perceiving at the moment in question.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:40:49 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

I think this is one of the key differences between the attitude towards the police in the US and elsewhere I'm familiar with (Canada, parts of Europe).

In the US, what you posted seems to constitute enough of a reason to clear the officers of wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I would think it would be taken as evidence that the cops had seriously fucked up.

Shooting a 12 year old with a toy gun because you didn't realize he was a kid with a plastic toy rather than someone trying to kill you indicates that the officers approached the situation in the wrong way; maybe they didn't murder the child, but it sure seems to be some sort of manslaughter/ negligent homicide.

If you read my earlier posts, I concede that the cops approached the scene in rather unwise and reckless manner.

A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:43:59 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.
Maybe the would wonder, but while wondering, they wouldn't make any moves that could be misinterpreted.  It's not police state thing, it's just common sense, same reason why it's a good idea to have your hands on the wheel while pulled over.

DG, we are talking about little kids here.  When I was 12 I did things that were contrary to common sense.  Like climbing a rickety watertower or exploring the storm sewer system with a flash light.  When I was that young cops didn't seem dangerous to me.  They chased after robbers and super villains.  You can't expect a 12 year old to make rational decisions.  Hell some of them ride skateboards, something no rational human being would do.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:40:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

I suppose if you live in a police state.  Most other people who are not doing anything wrong (like this kid) would wonder why the police are there.

Not doing anything wrong?  Did you see the rest of the video where the kid is brandishing the (apparent to everyone else but the kid) weapon in a reckless enough manner that a bystander calls the police?

I watched the video. Shows a bystander in the Gazebo sitting there. The kid is twirling the replica around - not pointing it at anyone (in the video at least). The bystander calls it in, says he thinks it is a replica (this info somehow failed to reach the cops), then calmly strolls away.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:41:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:23:56 PM
I didn't grow up in the Soviet Union so when I was out playing as a kid I wasn't thinking that cops would shoot me because they mistook my toy gun for a real one.  I also didn't think about getting a commercial license for a lemonade stand or about moving violations while riding a bike.
A swing and a miss.  In Soviet Union cops were actually very unlikely to shoot you, because they weren't allowed to unless the situation has become really obviously dangerous 15 minutes ago.  They were also obligated to fire in the air before firing at you.

They were just more likely to shoot you after the show trial.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:45:06 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It is very hard to imagine this ever happening here.  It is much more likely the police would react in the way I described when a man had a gun on the steps of the art gallery (ie cordon on the area and talk with the suspect.)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:36:43 PM
Maybe the would wonder, but while wondering, they wouldn't make any moves that could be misinterpreted.  It's not police state thing, it's just common sense, same reason why it's a good idea to have your hands on the wheel while pulled over.

I guess the tragedy is that the boy hadn't internalized the necessary kowtowing to the police required in the US, especially by Black men?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:47:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?
It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:40:49 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
Two things the cops responding likely didn't know, and had no way of knowing.

I think this is one of the key differences between the attitude towards the police in the US and elsewhere I'm familiar with (Canada, parts of Europe).

In the US, what you posted seems to constitute enough of a reason to clear the officers of wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I would think it would be taken as evidence that the cops had seriously fucked up.

Shooting a 12 year old with a toy gun because you didn't realize he was a kid with a plastic toy rather than someone trying to kill you indicates that the officers approached the situation in the wrong way; maybe they didn't murder the child, but it sure seems to be some sort of manslaughter/ negligent homicide.

You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:49:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 04:43:59 PM
DG, we are talking about little kids here.  When I was 12 I did things that were contrary to common sense.  Like climbing a rickety watertower or exploring the storm sewer system with a flash light.  When I was that young cops didn't seem dangerous to me.  They chased after robbers and super villains.  You can't expect a 12 year old to make rational decisions.  Hell some of them ride skateboards, something no rational human being would do.
When I was 12, and going to toy stores, I was disappointed that it was hard to find a black gun, and even those guns were ruined with a big-ass orange cap.  My mom told me that the cap is there so that a cop wouldn't accidentally shoot you, and that made enough sense right there and then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:49:38 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
If you read my earlier posts, I concede that the cops approached the scene in rather unwise and reckless manner.

A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.

Yeah. Up here I think that a 12 year old boy with a toy gun would be assigned basically no fault, pretty much whatever he did, in his own shooting death.

Had he pulled out the gun and pretended to shoot at the cops while yelling PEW PEW PEW really loud, it would still be the officers fault for killing him, I expect.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:47:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?
It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:45:06 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It is very hard to imagine this ever happening here.  It is much more likely the police would react in the way I described when a man had a gun on the steps of the art gallery (ie cordon on the area and talk with the suspect.)
You have to keep in mind that the likelihood of someone in Canada having a real gun is much lower, so the risk calculus changes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:51:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:47:31 PM
It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

It's a toy gun.

I played with many toy guns in my childhood, and not once did I consider what the police might have thought of it.

So no.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

I don't believe police roll up on a situation like that thinking "yahoo, we get to potentially subjugate or kill a black/poor kid today", but more of a "crap, am I going to get shot at/killed, or deal with some other really crappy, life-threatening situation today".  Usually involving a demographic that they do not relate to in any way (as most inner city cops probably live/commute from the 'burbs).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:52:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:47:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?
It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

WTF are you talking about.  He didnt do any convincing of a bystander.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

I totally accept that the police could have been behaving faultlessly. But I think the default starting point with a dead 12 year old is that someone on the police side seriously fucked up, and only a full inquiry or court case or similar process could establish the contrary.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 


In what way are police civilians?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)
If he were sure enough about that, he wouldn't bother calling 911, one would reasonably assume.  But we don't need to assume, because we know from what he said that he wasn't sure it was a replica.  Your paraphrasing is a little disingenuous.
Quote
Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...
They had more time to observe, and neither the means or the duty to do anything about the boy either way.  I'm sure the cops would've preferred to have 15 seconds to evaluate the situation themselves, but whatever they saw made them conclude that they had to act immediately.  Obviously it was a mistake in hindsight, but the whole discussion is whether it was a justifiable mistake or a reckless one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:50:51 PM
You have to keep in mind that the likelihood of someone in Canada having a real gun is much lower, so the risk calculus changes.

Yup. That's probably a big reason for the different attitudes, though there seems to me to be a larger trend perceived risks justifying stronger action in the US generally.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:55:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 


In what way are police civilians?

In the same way every one of us is.  We're supposed to have done away with class distinctions by now, dammit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

I totally accept that the police could have been behaving faultlessly. But I think the default starting point with a dead 12 year old is that someone on the police side seriously fucked up, and only a full inquiry or court case or similar process could establish the contrary.

In my experience starting with any kind of "default starting point" means you're well down the road to tunnel vision.

Take your facts as you find them and draw conclusions as appropriate.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

I don't believe police roll up on a situation like that thinking "yahoo, we get to potentially subjugate or kill a black/poor kid today", but more of a "crap, am I going to get shot at/killed, or deal with some other really crappy, life-threatening situation today".  Usually involving a demographic that they do not relate to in any way (as most inner city cops probably live/commute from the 'burbs).

I didn't mean to imply that the police deliberately set out to do bad things.

However, in the US there exists a large body of lore regarding how to behave around police officers so you don't get in trouble needlessly. It seems to me that that body of lore is considered pertinent in general, but even more so for Black men.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:57:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 


In what way are police civilians?

Technically, civilians means "non-military".  So that would include law enforcement.

Practically though, I can tell you I routinely refer to "civilian witnesses" to differentiate them from police witnesses.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:58:02 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

I totally accept that the police could have been behaving faultlessly. But I think the default starting point with a dead 12 year old is that someone on the police side seriously fucked up, and only a full inquiry or court case or similar process could establish the contrary.

Even assuming the police version of events is 100% accurate, there was still a screw-up - the actual information from the caller was, according to the polices' own version of events, not passed on to the cops on the scene, leaving out two vital facts:

1. That the gun was possibly or probably a fake; and

2. That the perp was a "juvenile".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:58:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 


In what way are police civilians?

In that they are not in the Armed Forces. Different uses of the vocabulary, dependent on PoV.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 05:00:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:57:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 


In what way are police civilians?

Technically, civilians means "non-military".  So that would include law enforcement.

Practically though, I can tell you I routinely refer to "civilian witnesses" to differentiate them from police witnesses.

My thinking comes from an old cop show I remember watching, where an officer (about to be fired) laments at becoming a "regular citizen" again.  I think this is part of the "us v. them" mentality between the police and everyone else that is poisonous and part of the overall problem.  The police are one of us.  Just like even lawyers are one of us.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
In my experience starting with any kind of "default starting point" means you're well down the road to tunnel vision.

Take your facts as you find them and draw conclusions as appropriate.

The fact is that a 12 year old boy is dead, having been armed with a toy gun.

The remaining facts are still to be established, it seems.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:00:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

The caller said it might be a replica.  Not much point in calling 911 if you know a kid is playing with a toy gun.

Not sure how it changes things if the cops had known it *might* be a replica. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:05:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:00:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

The caller said it might be a replica.  Not much point in calling 911 if you know a kid is playing with a toy gun.

Not sure how it changes things if the cops had known it *might* be a replica.


Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 04:54:49 PM
If he were sure enough about that, he wouldn't bother calling 911, one would reasonably assume.  But we don't need to assume, because we know from what he said that he wasn't sure it was a replica.  Your paraphrasing is a little disingenuous.

Not so.

What he allegedly said was as follows:

QuoteA man shown sitting under a nearby gazebo made a 911 call, telling the dispatcher "there's a guy in here with a pistol, pointing it at everybody," according to audio of the call. The caller said the gun is "probably fake, but you know what, he's scaring the s— out of people," and later said, "I don't know if it's real or not." He described Tamir as "probably a juvenile." He eventually left the park.

But information about the gun possibly being fake wasn't mentioned to the officers in a call to them about a young black male with a gun in a park.

So, he first says it was "probaby a fake", then qualifies that by saying he didn't know - which is reasonable, because he can't know for sure. 

The reason for his call was clear - he thought the kid was "scaring the s— out of people". Not that he was actually a risk - he was "scaring" people.

That's a perfectly reasonable reason to call. So your "If he were sure enough about that, he wouldn't bother calling 911, one would reasonably assume" doesn't make sense. Obviously, he would call whether it was fake or not - the kid was allegedly scaring people.

QuoteThey had more time to observe, and neither the means or the duty to do anything about the boy either way.  I'm sure the cops would've preferred to have 15 seconds to evaluate the situation themselves, but whatever they saw made them conclude that they had to act immediately.  Obviously it was a mistake in hindsight, but the whole discussion is whether it was a justifiable mistake or a reckless one.

The immediacy was all of the cop's own making - as you can plainly see, they drive right up to the kid. Why not approach the kid from further away?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:00:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

The caller said it might be a replica.  Not much point in calling 911 if you know a kid is playing with a toy gun.

Read what the guy said - his complaint was that a kid was "scaring" people.

QuoteNot sure how it changes things if the cops had known it *might* be a replica.

Once again, I am baffled. Cops, knowing in advance it "might" be a replica, and knowing in advance it "might" be a kid - and this makes literally no difference to whether they shoot to kill the instant the car stops or not?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:05:05 PM
Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

How would you like them to do that?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 27, 2014, 05:12:34 PM
It might be more of rural/small town vs urban thing.  When ever we got cops who came in from St. Louis of KC they would whip out their guns and start screaming at people at the slightest provocation.  The Police chief would have to tell them to dial it back a bit, that's not how we deal with traffic stops in mid Missouri.  I think police from urban or suburban areas around big cities have a bit more of a siege mentality they they do out here in "Mayberry" country.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
The immediacy was all of the cop's own making - as you can plainly see, they drive right up to the kid. Why not approach the kid from further away?
Maybe it's a more effective tactic against an actual armed perp, which as far as they knew the kid was?  I don't know, I'm not a police tactics expert.  It does seem like you only consider one side of the risk, and discount the other side of the risk of letting an actual gunman present danger to others for longer than necessary.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
Once again, I am baffled. Cops, knowing in advance it "might" be a replica, and knowing in advance it "might" be a kid - and this makes literally no difference to whether they shoot to kill the instant the car stops or not?

I'd be interested to know how you think cops should handle a situation in which someone might have a gun and they might not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:05:05 PM
Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

How would you like them to do that?

Really? The US has some of the best universities in the world and THAT is a difficult one to figure out?

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 05:17:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.
Most guns can shoot people other than cops.  If I'm around an armed perp, I may not necessarily want the cops to do what puts them in least danger.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:18:04 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Maybe it's a more effective tactic against an actual armed perp, which as far as they knew the kid was?  I don't know, I'm not a police tactics expert.  It does seem like you only consider one side of the risk, and discount the other side of the risk of letting an actual gunman present danger to others for longer than necessary.

Yeah, the multiple risks of letting an armed boy run loose in an emply playground for that vital few seconds.  :huh:

Note that at no time was there any claim the kid was actually doing anything with said gun other than "scaring" people with it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 05:18:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:05:05 PM
Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

How would you like them to do that?

Really? The US has some of the best universities in the world and THAT is a difficult one to figure out?

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

Cops here don't need to go to college.  :smarty:

(but they probably should...heck it is probably one of the highest paying, no-degree required jobs out there these days)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:18:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
Really? The US has some of the best universities in the world and THAT is a difficult one to figure out?

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

I misunderstood your point.  I agree that the cops should have approached differently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:21:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
Once again, I am baffled. Cops, knowing in advance it "might" be a replica, and knowing in advance it "might" be a kid - and this makes literally no difference to whether they shoot to kill the instant the car stops or not?

I'd be interested to know how you think cops should handle a situation in which someone might have a gun and they might not.

If it "may" be a kid armed with a replica, or it "may" be a kid armed with a real gun?

How about approaching from a distance and engaging in some sort of dialogue with the kid? As in "kid, we have a report you are scaring people with a gun. Please raise your hands and keep them on you head while we approach you to check out what you have".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2014, 05:18:04 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Maybe it's a more effective tactic against an actual armed perp, which as far as they knew the kid was?  I don't know, I'm not a police tactics expert.  It does seem like you only consider one side of the risk, and discount the other side of the risk of letting an actual gunman present danger to others for longer than necessary.

Yeah, the multiple risks of letting an armed boy run loose in an emply playground for that vital few seconds.  :huh:

Note that at no time was there any claim the kid was actually doing anything with said gun other than "scaring" people with it.
Everyone is smart at a distance, in hindsight, and with full information.  It's a little more difficult down at ground zero, where you don't know ahead of time which mistake you should fear making.  That was my point.  All the people here discussing how to best identify a toy gun from a real gun seem to think that there aren't any side effects from making the mistake the other way, and being indecisive when the situation calls for quick response.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:24:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:51:24 PM
I played with many toy guns in my childhood, and not once did I consider what the police might have thought of it.
We were kids a long, long time ago.  It's a different era now.

Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.

:yes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.
:yes:
Mind you, they'd still have the same problem the first time Predator pulled out some 12-year old's spine.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 05:51:13 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:24:00 PM
We were kids a long, long time ago.  It's a different era now.

Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason. :P

If it were mine to give, I'd give you all three of those.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:51:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2014, 05:17:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.
Most guns can shoot people other than cops.  If I'm around an armed perp, I may not necessarily want the cops to do what puts them in least danger.

I dont see anyone else in the playground.  And the person who phoned it in said it was likely not real.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:52:29 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:24:00 PM
Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason. :P

Keep dreaming the impossible dream my friend.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 27, 2014, 05:54:49 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It's funny, I have no problem shooting from the hip about topics I have only a passing familiarity with.

But since I have written a number of opinions on potential charges against police officers, I would want to see all the witness statements before coming to an opinion.  Sometimes it's what seems like innocuous details at first are what decides whether or not to prosecute.

The thing to remember is that in Canada, given we have orders of magnitude less handguns than in the US, police can afford to be a little more trusting than in the US.

Here's the RCMP Use of Force policy if you're curious.  Ultimately though it always comes down to what the officer was perceiving at the moment in question.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm

This makes no sense, in an incident exactly like this one, either in the US or in Canada there are precisely the same number of handguns in the hands of the suspect, one. Yet you say the police will behave differently in the same circumstance.

You seem to be justify the response in America as some self-fulfilling prophecy;, because there are so many guns, you have to assume the very worst in everyone, including children and get the drop on them come what may.

It's almost a return to the Wild West 'legendary' times.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:57:26 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 27, 2014, 05:54:49 PM
It's almost a return to the Wild West 'legendary' times.

BB lives in that part of the Country.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 27, 2014, 05:54:49 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 27, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It's funny, I have no problem shooting from the hip about topics I have only a passing familiarity with.

But since I have written a number of opinions on potential charges against police officers, I would want to see all the witness statements before coming to an opinion.  Sometimes it's what seems like innocuous details at first are what decides whether or not to prosecute.

The thing to remember is that in Canada, given we have orders of magnitude less handguns than in the US, police can afford to be a little more trusting than in the US.

Here's the RCMP Use of Force policy if you're curious.  Ultimately though it always comes down to what the officer was perceiving at the moment in question.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm

This makes no sense, in an incident exactly like this one, either in the US or in Canada there are precisely the same number of handguns in the hands of the suspect, one. Yet you say the police will behave differently in the same circumstance.

You seem to be justify the response in America as some self-fulfilling prophecy;, because there are so many guns, you have to assume the very worst in everyone, including children and get the drop on them come what may.

It's almost a return to the Wild West 'legendary' times.
You can't shut a neighbourhood down over a handgun complaint when you get fifty handgun complaints every day.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Presumably, in a sane society, they would do something about the number of handguns then.

Ok there, gun nuts, go wild.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 27, 2014, 06:03:55 PM
But you know full well that they can't.  They're so afraid, there are so many handguns and their political and legal systems are so corrupt that all they can do is react to the situation as it exists.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 27, 2014, 06:12:49 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.
Sure. But I take faults more seriously from trained adults whose role is to serve the community, than a 12 year old kid. It seems pretty clear who should maybe take extra care in that situation not to make faults.

Edit: Incidentally I agree with the Canadians and Raz on the urban-rural thing.

Is there more that police can do with the community, especially African Americans, so that they're less twitchy (especially when there's a racial difference) and African Americans have less reason to fear being gunned down? Or has that been explored and failed?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 27, 2014, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.
:yes:
Mind you, they'd still have the same problem the first time Predator pulled out some 12-year old's spine.

They don't make mistakes like that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on November 27, 2014, 08:07:08 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 27, 2014, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.
:yes:
Mind you, they'd still have the same problem the first time Predator pulled out some 12-year old's spine.
They don't make mistakes like that.
If the 12-year old had a real handgun, they'd be all dogmeat and trophies.  And then everybody would be on him because the child wouldn't understand what the gun meant, or the force used was disproportionate, or the Predator was racist, or whatever.

Everybody is always too tough on Predator.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 28, 2014, 12:13:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 27, 2014, 06:12:49 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.
Sure. But I take faults more seriously from trained adults whose role is to serve the community, than a 12 year old kid. It seems pretty clear who should maybe take extra care in that situation not to make faults.

Edit: Incidentally I agree with the Canadians and Raz on the urban-rural thing.

Is there more that police can do with the community, especially African Americans, so that they're less twitchy (especially when there's a racial difference) and African Americans have less reason to fear being gunned down? Or has that been explored and failed?

I don't know.  A lot of the protesters who were angry about police brutality don't like cops to begin with and simply relish insulting cops to their face.  The idea of being able to stand up there all night and scream "Fuck you" at the police, throw bottles at them and spit on them is extremely appealing to some people.  It's a position I find baffling.  Some people there brought up the issue of lack of blacks governing the city and in the police force.  This is something that can be addressed, however, the pitiful turnout in the November elections leads me to believe that the leaders of this movement aren't interested in actual solutions and more interested in yelling at police and getting their acts of heroic defiance recorded and streamed on the net.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 28, 2014, 12:47:20 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
The Predator could identify a toy gun.
I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.
:yes:
Mind you, they'd still have the same problem the first time Predator pulled out some 12-year old's spine.
That 12 year old would have had a real gun though
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
After seeing Macklemore in the protest's front lines, I'm now siding with the racist cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 27, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

I don't believe police roll up on a situation like that thinking "yahoo, we get to potentially subjugate or kill a black/poor kid today", but more of a "crap, am I going to get shot at/killed, or deal with some other really crappy, life-threatening situation today".  Usually involving a demographic that they do not relate to in any way (as most inner city cops probably live/commute from the 'burbs).

Which I think links back to what Otto said. Sam Vimes of Discworld fame has often been saying that a trouble starts when you mix up military with policing work - as these two are very different. It seems to me the US police are suffering from over-militarisation - both in terms of equipment and mentality.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 05:14:59 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2014, 05:24:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 27, 2014, 04:51:24 PM
I played with many toy guns in my childhood, and not once did I consider what the police might have thought of it.
We were kids a long, long time ago.  It's a different era now.

Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason. :P

What the fuck? What misdeeds?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 28, 2014, 05:34:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
After seeing Macklemore in the protest's front lines, I'm now siding with the racist cops.

I bet he marches in gay pride parades too.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 06:25:32 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 28, 2014, 05:34:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
After seeing Macklemore in the protest's front lines, I'm now siding with the racist cops.

I bet he marches in gay pride parades too.  :P

I did briefly consider opposing gay marriage, because this pandering poseur supports it. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 28, 2014, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2014, 02:15:06 PMThe only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were.

The guy I'm thinking about may have actually been associated with Cleveland PD in some way, and I don't remember him speaking as though instantly shooting was okay. His point was that in an encounter, if you see someone's hands going for a deadly weapon, the training is to shoot them immediately, not wait for them to fully draw it out into firing position. Further, that when you first approach someone you take a good look at what's in their hands and what their hands are doing, and keep aware of that throughout the encounter. This guy was explaining that this is how a cop might not even "notice" it's a kid, because he's initially so keyed in on that--especially when he's been told by dispatch that he's dealing with someone who has a gun.

So essentially he was asserting you had a chain of events where, the situation developed so quickly the officers had not perceived this was a kid. They showed up thinking someone was on a playground with a gun, they see the person they think it must be and are keyed in on what's in this dude's hands. Very shortly (like a second) into this, the person pulls up their shirt like they're going for something in their waist band. At that point the immediate reaction as per training is to drop the person, because he's going for something that could be a deadly weapon. Again, the guy saying this was going to pains to exonerate the police.

It sounds like from what BB has said even in Canada that if an officer "perceives" that a 12 year old is pulling a gun on them, they'd be legally in the clear to drop the kid. So CdM may be right this is a justifiable shoot. But Bill Bratton (the NYPD Commissioner) probably would have been justified in putting a round in between the eyes of the armed robber he talked down 30 years ago, but he chose another route. Whatever the right/wrong is, I think police should be more willing to accept some level of risk to try a non-violent way to diffuse a situation. But I'm not a cop, so I guess that's easy for me to say.

Once they were actually up close and the kid went for something in his waistband, part of me can understand the reaction. But part of me feels like they should have taken in the totality of the situation, namely that this is clearly a little kid, a pre-teen even, and that they should consider what they're doing a little differently.

That being said it's probably worth mentioning this kid had an airsoft gun, which is somewhere between a the harmless toy Jacob is going "pew pew" with and a dangerous weapon. It's more akin to a sling shot--it is a toy, but you can really hurt someone with one. I played with such guns as a kid, but I spent a lot of time in rural areas, I'm not sure it's wise to let your kids play with air soft guns at public playgrounds in the city limits of a big city. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if it's against ordinance. I only bring that up to say that somewhere in the guardianship chain of this kid, something broke down. I wasn't allowed to touch an airlift gun until I had been thoroughly taught "this is for shooting stuff with like cans or whatever, you NEVER point this at another kid or shoot another kid with it." You could (to quote a famous movie) put someone's eye out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 28, 2014, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 28, 2014, 05:10:08 AM
Which I think links back to what Otto said. Sam Vimes of Discworld fame has often been saying that a trouble starts when you mix up military with policing work - as these two are very different. It seems to me the US police are suffering from over-militarisation - both in terms of equipment and mentality.
Yeah. It's incomprehensible to me. Both the way the police look like a paramilitary force, and the way Americans here describe how you should behave towards the police I just don't understand how it got that way and is tolerable, aside from shootings like this.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 10:29:54 AM
Here is a very interesting article that is germaine to this situation:

http://www.experts.com/Articles/The-Art-of-Force-Pre-Contact-Threat-Assessment-By-Ron-Martinelli

Quote
Pre-contact Threat Assessment: Rules Pertaining to "The Art of Force"
Rule #1 - "You cannot seek to control others unless YOU are first in control (emotionally)."

Angry, agitated or emotionally disturbed subjects are often affected by a naturally produced or external (illicit or psychotropic) chemical imbalance that causes them to present symptoms when threatened. However, officers who are untrained or lacking in confidence with their officer safety tactics and force management skills allow themselves to become "emotionally captured" by a subject's resistance. When this happens and they experience a "phobic scale response" (fear/threatened), they infuse themselves with survival chemicals such as adrenaline, epinephrine, endorphins and euphoric dopamine. These natural chemicals, which are also affecting the subjects they are dealing with, can cause officers to experience visual and temporal distortions. The acute dumping of simulants may cause officers to lose "situational awareness" and present with hypervigilance (panic and confusion). This could lead to the application of excessive force and potential lapses of memory. Officers engaged in any confrontation need to focus as much in maintaining their "center and balance" as they do in dealing with resistant or threatening subjects.

Rule #2 - "Manipulate the environment; don't be manipulated by it."

One slogan of U.S. Army Rangers is, "Improvise, adapt and overcome." Police officers are often challenged in the field by unique and rapidly evolving circumstances that they may lack the proper tactical equipment for. However, this does not mean that you lack "situational awareness" or that you cannot immediately adapt and modify your tactics to ultimately overcome and control a resistant or potentially violent subject. If you allow the environment to control you when you have a clear opportunity to control the environment, you are doomed to failure. Whenever possible, take the time to think clearly and "outside the box" about what resources you have available; or how you can exploit the same environment to succeed in safely and effectively taking a resistive or threatening subject into custody.

Rule #3 - Remember the "Five Components of Arrest" - Can you accomplish them?

In every arrest scenario, there are five components; (1) verbalization, (2) approaching the subject, (3) going "hands on" with the subject, (4) arrest and control tactics, and (5) handcuffing/searching prior to transport. It is in assessing the subject and your situation that you must determine whether you and your partner officer(s) can successfully accomplish all five of these components. This is the most important component of any pre-contact threat assessment. If after considering your circumstances, you believe that you cannot safely accomplish all five of the arrest components, do not make contact! That does not mean that you never make contact; it just means that you do not force the issue at that moment. Rather, whenever the situation allows follow rules #1 and #2. Keep calm, focus on maintaining situational awareness, manipulate the environment by adapting and thinking outside the box, and call for additional resources so that you can eventually and safely prevail.

Rule #4 - If at all possible, avoid "time compression."

Police officers have a habit of wanting to take immediate action during the course of an incident when it is neither safe nor prudent to do so. This again speaks to a lack of "situational awareness." Remember that there is a distinction between "potential" and "imminent" jeopardy. While all contacts with resistant subjects are potentially dangerous, significantly fewer encounters actually place officers in imminent danger. The trick is to follow Rule #1 and not to become so "emotionally captured" in an event with a resistant or threatening subject that you become unreasonably phobic and adrenalized to the point that you rush into a situation when you do not have to. Examples of unnecessary time compression include: (1) moving too close to the subject, (2) posturing by screaming and yelling complex or confusing orders, or (3) rapidly engaging an already agitated, angry, delusional or otherwise psychotic person who does not present an imminent danger from a distance.

Unnecessary time compression nearly always exacerbates any difficult tactical situation by significantly reducing an officer's reactionary gap (distance vs. reaction time). This, in turn, causes the involved officer(s) to experience visual, auditory and temporal distortions. These distortions often lead to subject action - officer reaction problems such as "perception - shooting lag time" that rarely favor the involved officer(s).

Rule #5 - Distance and cover are your friends.

Whenever possible, utilize and maintain distance and cover from any resistant and potentially violent subject you intend to arrest. Distance allows you to observe more and prevents visual distortions such as perceptional narrowing or "tunnel vision." Distance also enhances hearing, situational awareness and lengthens reactionary gap. These benefits allow the involved officer(s) to maintain center and balance, as well as working to mitigate or lessen the potential for the officer(s) to become emotionally captured in the event.

Maintaining distance from resistant and/or threatening subjects presenting as: (1) agitated and psychotic, or (2) those intent upon choreographing a "suicide by cop" scenario, significantly reduces the acute paranoia these subjects might experience through space and time compression. Maintaining distance from a resistant and threatening subject ultimately allows officers an enhanced opportunity to observe and assess what is happening more accurately and to respond to potential and imminent jeopardy in a safer and more effective manner.

Ultimately, it will nearly always be a department's and an officer's commitment to and the employment of sound police practices and training in contemporary officer safety tactics and force management, rather than an overreliance on technological gadgets, that will allow officers to prevail over resistant subjects in challenging situations.

I think "Rule #4" is particularly relevant here.

I can see the author shaking his head sadly at the cops involved in this incident - they are literally a text-book case of cops who failed to control the situation, imposed unnecessary time-compression on themselves, were "emotionally captured" by events and lacked "situational awareness".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

We took a gun off a 13 year old once (he " had just found it").  Found it on him in the pat down.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Why?  Because he put his hands up when we fucking told him.  But if he had raised his shirt where it was tucked in, contrary to orders, and showed us the butt of a pistol, he would've increased his chances on getting ventilated.

You guys seem to think that an officer's orders, particularly when a gun is involved, are in some way negotiable or open to interpretation, because "he was 12", or because "it was a playground".  It is not a two-way discussion at that point.   It is not a fucking debate.   When you're told to raise your hands, you don't lift the front of your shirt to show a gun. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 10:55:24 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.


Only because the police got out of their vehicle less than 1 metre away....

ie the cops caused the time compression
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 10:55:24 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.


Only because the police got out of their vehicle less than 1 metre away....

ie the cops caused the time compression

Doesn't matter if it's 1 METER or 1 mile away: lifting your sweatshirt to show a gun in your waistband can get you killed, regardless of the mileage.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 11:04:20 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

We took a gun off a 13 year old once (he " had just found it").  Found it on him in the pat down.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Why?  Because he put his hands up when we fucking told him.  But if he had raised his shirt where it was tucked in, contrary to orders, and showed us the butt of a pistol, he would've increased his chances on getting ventilated.

You guys seem to think that an officer's orders, particularly when a gun is involved, are in some way negotiable or open to interpretation, because "he was 12", or because "it was a playground".  It is not a two-way discussion at that point.   It is not a fucking debate.   When you're told to raise your hands, you don't lift the front of your shirt to show a gun.

That's not the issue. The issue is - were these officers really in control of the situation? On the tape, it looks like they were reacting in a panic. A panic there was no need for, one caused by them causing the unnecessary "time compresson", not taking the time necessary to evaluate the situation -  going off half-cocked.

In short, there was no need for the officers to place themselves in a situation where a kid failing to instantly react to orders *requires* an instant deadly response.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:22:21 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 11:04:20 AM
That's not the issue. The issue is - were these officers really in control of the situation? On the tape, it looks like they were reacting in a panic. A panic there was no need for, one caused by them causing the unnecessary "time compresson", not taking the time necessary to evaluate the situation -  going off half-cocked.

In short, there was no need for the officers to place themselves in a situation where a kid failing to instantly react to orders *requires* an instant deadly response.

Yes, that is the issue, because it's certainly not this bullshit about "going off half-cocked" or any of this other bullshit you're talking about.  And the unfortunate fact of life in the big city is that when you pull your sweatshirt up to show a gun that you may or may not be reaching for in front of officers responding to an individual with a gun call, chances are it's going to get you killed regardless of age, and that there's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it. 

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 11:34:56 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:22:21 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 11:04:20 AM
That's not the issue. The issue is - were these officers really in control of the situation? On the tape, it looks like they were reacting in a panic. A panic there was no need for, one caused by them causing the unnecessary "time compresson", not taking the time necessary to evaluate the situation -  going off half-cocked.

In short, there was no need for the officers to place themselves in a situation where a kid failing to instantly react to orders *requires* an instant deadly response.

Yes, that is the issue, because it's certainly not this bullshit about "going off half-cocked" or any of this other bullshit you're talking about.  And the unfortunate fact of life in the big city is that when you pull your sweatshirt up to show a gun that you may or may not be reaching for in front of officers responding to an individual with a gun call, chances are it's going to get you killed regardless of age, and that there's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it.

I can't see the author of the artice quoted "getting it" either.

"You know all that stuff I was saying about keeping control over the situation and over yourself, not imposing unnecesary time compression, and all that? Well, know what? When you think a gun is involved, just forget about all that shit"  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
The situation was under control once the individual with the gun in the waistband was down.

I'd ask 11Bravo to chime in on this, but even he knows trying to communicate with you pretentious judgmental assholes is useless.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 10:55:24 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.


Only because the police got out of their vehicle less than 1 metre away....

ie the cops caused the time compression

Doesn't matter if it's 1 METER or 1 mile away: lifting your sweatshirt to show a gun in your waistband can get you killed, regardless of the mileage.

Really, if a cop was standing several hundred YARDS away and saw someone lift their shirt they would immediately shoot? 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on November 28, 2014, 12:52:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 10:55:24 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.


Only because the police got out of their vehicle less than 1 metre away....

ie the cops caused the time compression

Doesn't matter if it's 1 METER or 1 mile away: lifting your sweatshirt to show a gun in your waistband can get you killed, regardless of the mileage.

Really, if a cop was standing several hundred YARDS away and saw someone lift their shirt they would immediately shoot?

Well, yes. Cops are scared, trigger happy & power tripping assholes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 28, 2014, 12:36:08 PM
Really, if a cop was standing several hundred YARDS away and saw someone lift their shirt they would immediately shoot?

Makes as much sense as your ZOMG THEY WUZ TOO CLOSE nonsense.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 01:10:45 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 28, 2014, 12:52:44 PM
Well, yes. Cops are scared, trigger happy & power tripping assholes.

Another smug Canadian.  By all means, we need more.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 28, 2014, 01:13:06 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 01:10:45 PM
Another smug Canadian.  By all means, we need more.

Hey, what's up?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
The situation was under control once the individual with the gun in the waistband was down.

I'd ask 11Bravo to chime in on this, but even he knows trying to communicate with you pretentious judgmental assholes is useless.

It's a rabbit hole here. Been watching and can see your point exactly.

Quotethere's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it.

IMO it's because they (CC and crew) possibly think the cops must put themselves in a disadvantage before using deadly force.

One of my officers had a similar incident involving a teenager, limited visibility, and a replica airsoft pistol. I'm leaving for work, but will post the particulars.   
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 01:40:12 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
The situation was under control once the individual with the gun in the waistband was down.

I'd ask 11Bravo to chime in on this, but even he knows trying to communicate with you pretentious judgmental assholes is useless.

It's a rabbit hole here. Been watching and can see your point exactly.

Quotethere's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it.

IMO it's because they (CC and crew) possibly think the cops must put themselves in a disadvantage before using deadly force.

One of my officers had a similar incident involving a teenager, limited visibility, and a replica airsoft pistol. I'm leaving for work, but will post the particulars.

Not so. How does approaching with caution, clear-headedly analysing the situation, and giving oneself enough time and distance to react put the officers at a disadvantage?

Look at this particular incident - if that kid really had been packing, those officers put *themselves* at a disadvantage by driving right up to him as they did - he could have ventelated them before they made a move.

Again, look at the article posted upthread. Do you disagree with it? If so, why?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on November 28, 2014, 02:25:02 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 01:35:32 PMIMO it's because they (CC and crew) possibly think the cops must put themselves in a disadvantage before using deadly force.

I do think there are different standards at play about the relationship between perception of risk and the appropriateness of lethal force.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on November 28, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 01:10:45 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 28, 2014, 12:52:44 PM
Well, yes. Cops are scared, trigger happy & power tripping assholes.

Another smug Canadian.  By all means, we need more.

No Justice, No Peace.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

We took a gun off a 13 year old once (he " had just found it").  Found it on him in the pat down.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Why?  Because he put his hands up when we fucking told him.  But if he had raised his shirt where it was tucked in, contrary to orders, and showed us the butt of a pistol, he would've increased his chances on getting ventilated.

You guys seem to think that an officer's orders, particularly when a gun is involved, are in some way negotiable or open to interpretation, because "he was 12", or because "it was a playground".  It is not a two-way discussion at that point.   It is not a fucking debate.   When you're told to raise your hands, you don't lift the front of your shirt to show a gun.

I didn't see the kid do this (raise hands) in the vid.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 01:40:12 PM


Not so. How does approaching with caution, clear-headedly analysing the situation, and giving oneself enough time and distance to react put the officers at a disadvantage?

How do you know they weren't watching the subject during their whole approach up to him? Most likely they were.

Quote
Look at this particular incident - if that kid really had been packing, those officers put *themselves* at a disadvantage by driving right up to him as they did - he could have ventelated them before they made a move.

Not the issue. In that case why didn't the kid put is hands up when told to?

Quote
Again, look at the article posted upthread. Do you disagree with it? If so, why?

I did and #3 in utter horseshit. #4 again is not a hard fast rule particularly when a gun is involved. In fact none of those are a hard fast rule even though the author would like cookie cutter people to drink that cool-aid.

QuoteIf after considering your circumstances, you believe that you cannot safely accomplish all five of the arrest components ((1) verbalization, (2) approaching the subject, (3) going "hands on" with the subject, (4) arrest and control tactics, and (5) handcuffing/searching prior to transport), do not make contact! That does not mean that you never make contact; it just means that you do not force the issue at that moment. Rather, whenever the situation allows follow rules #1 and #2. Keep calm, focus on maintaining situational awareness, manipulate the environment by adapting and thinking outside the box, and call for additional resources so that you can eventually and safely prevail.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 03:24:39 PM

How do you know they weren't watching the subject during their whole approach up to him? Most likely they were.

Huh? How is that an answer? Sure, they were watching him - as they drive right up to him. If they thought he was packing, why do that?

Quote
Not the issue. In that case why didn't the kid put is hands up when told to?

Well, first of all - we have no idea what the officers "told" the kid. They claim they told him three times to put up his hands "as he approached the car", but that simply can't be true, right?

Second - sure it is the issue. Presumably the claim that the cops were justified comes from the fact that they had no time to react. Isn't the fact that they created that particular problem by driving right up to the kid relevant?

Third - he's a kid. From his perspective, he was playing in the park when a car drives up to him (presumably sirens blaring) and men jump out at him. He's supposed to react calmly and rationally to that? Maybe he froze. Considering the cop gave him all of a second to react, is it a surprise he did not react the way he was supposed to?

Quote
I did and #3 in utter horseshit. #4 again is not a hard fast rule particularly when a gun is involved. In fact none of those are a hard fast rule even though the author would like cookie cutter people to drink that cool-aid.

QuoteIf after considering your circumstances, you believe that you cannot safely accomplish all five of the arrest components ((1) verbalization, (2) approaching the subject, (3) going "hands on" with the subject, (4) arrest and control tactics, and (5) handcuffing/searching prior to transport), do not make contact! That does not mean that you never make contact; it just means that you do not force the issue at that moment. Rather, whenever the situation allows follow rules #1 and #2. Keep calm, focus on maintaining situational awareness, manipulate the environment by adapting and thinking outside the box, and call for additional resources so that you can eventually and safely prevail.

Other that the over-use of corporate-speak (I take a shit every time someone says 'think outside the box' - sad but true  :D ), not sure why it is "horseshit". Basically, he appears to be saying that if you can't make the collar safely, don't be a goddam adrenaline pumped hero - remain calm and call for back-up, knowing that time is on your side.

Seems sensible enough to me. In this case, where the kid was sitting by himself in a gazebo in an apparently deserted playground, what's the need for haste?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on November 28, 2014, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM
Well, first of all - we have no idea what the officers "told" the kid. They claim they told him three times to put up his hands "as he approached the car", but that simply can't be true, right?

Why the hell can't it be true?

I keep telling you guys - you do not have enough information to make any definite opinions on this one.  Look, you can talk and discuss it (and you're quite right that 'tactical positioning' is a huge part of how you deal with a potential use of force incident), but you really shouldn't be coming to any firm opinions.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 04:05:45 PM
QuoteHuh? How is that an answer? Sure, they were watching him - as they drive right up to him. If they thought he was packing, why do that?

The kid didn't display opportunity, capability, and intent while he was sitting there. Not till the patrol car pulled up did he get up and advance towards the officers lifting/reaching for the suspected pistol in his waist band.  Opportunity, capability, and intent from their perspective. Two seconds is a long time in a situation like that. 


QuoteBasically, he appears to be saying that if you can't make the collar safely, don't be a goddam adrenaline pumped hero - remain calm and call for back-up, knowing that time is on your side.

Malthus, time may not be on your side. Does his number #3 apply in a lot of situations, sure. It's not written that way.

QuoteSeems sensible enough to me. In this case, where the kid was sitting by himself in a gazebo in an apparently deserted playground, what's the need for haste? 

Who said the officers were acting in haste?

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 04:23:59 PM
Looking at the CNN video, opportunity and capability are established in the early footage of Tamir, but the cops don't know that of course.

*Caller says a guy with a pistol, and it's probably a fake (x2) one pointing it at people.

(The dispatcher may not by able to make the call as to whether the gun is fake. Probably why she did not relay that to patrol)

*Dispatch to Patrol #1; Everyone is tied up on priorities, there's a guy sitting on a swing pointing a gun at people.

From a officers perspective "intent starts to take shape".

*Dispatch to Patrol #2; Description of suspect, he keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people.

again the actions of the suspect haven't changed.

*Patrol makes contact. Tamir adavanced on and reached in his waist band.

Tamir's "intent" is solidified, all three elements of the deadly force triangle are met, from the officers perspective



http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:26:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 28, 2014, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM
Well, first of all - we have no idea what the officers "told" the kid. They claim they told him three times to put up his hands "as he approached the car", but that simply can't be true, right?

Why the hell can't it be true?

I keep telling you guys - you do not have enough information to make any definite opinions on this one.  Look, you can talk and discuss it (and you're quite right that 'tactical positioning' is a huge part of how you deal with a potential use of force incident), but you really shouldn't be coming to any firm opinions.

Because we can see the car pull in and 1.5 seconds later the kid is shot. There is not sufficient time for the officers to tell him "three times" to put his hands up 'as he approached the car'.

Ergo, the statement *as reported* simply cannot be true. It may be the reporting is wrong or it may be the officers were wrong, but the statement *as reported* is - simply - not possible.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 04:05:45 PM

Malthus, time may not be on your side. Does his number #3 apply in a lot of situations, sure. It's not written that way.

The issue is whether it applies in *this* situation.

Quote

Who said the officers were acting in haste?

Uh, anyone watching the video? They drive up on the grass right up to the kid and jump out. The shooter appears to stumble right out the door. How is that not "acting in haste?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 04:05:45 PM

Malthus, time may not be on your side. Does his number #3 apply in a lot of situations, sure. It's not written that way.

Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:35:28 PM

The issue is whether it applies in *this* situation.

IMO, no.

Quote
Who said the officers were acting in haste?

QuoteUh, anyone watching the video? They drive up on the grass right up to the kid and jump out. The shooter appears to stumble right out the door. How is that not "acting in haste?"

You are assuming too much
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:26:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 28, 2014, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM
Well, first of all - we have no idea what the officers "told" the kid. They claim they told him three times to put up his hands "as he approached the car", but that simply can't be true, right?

Why the hell can't it be true?

I keep telling you guys - you do not have enough information to make any definite opinions on this one.  Look, you can talk and discuss it (and you're quite right that 'tactical positioning' is a huge part of how you deal with a potential use of force incident), but you really shouldn't be coming to any firm opinions.

Because we can see the car pull in and 1.5 seconds later the kid is shot. There is not sufficient time for the officers to tell him "three times" to put his hands up 'as he approached the car'.

Ergo, the statement *as reported* simply cannot be true. It may be the reporting is wrong or it may be the officers were wrong, but the statement *as reported* is - simply - not possible.

Quote"Three commands were given to put up his hands," deputy police chief Edward Tomba told reporters.

With a PA it is. You're assuming the cops told him three times from when they got out of the car. Timir was approaching them as they were still driving up (clearly seen on the vid). Patrol Cars have PA's you know.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:13:29 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:26:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 28, 2014, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM
Well, first of all - we have no idea what the officers "told" the kid. They claim they told him three times to put up his hands "as he approached the car", but that simply can't be true, right?

Why the hell can't it be true?

I keep telling you guys - you do not have enough information to make any definite opinions on this one.  Look, you can talk and discuss it (and you're quite right that 'tactical positioning' is a huge part of how you deal with a potential use of force incident), but you really shouldn't be coming to any firm opinions.

Because we can see the car pull in and 1.5 seconds later the kid is shot. There is not sufficient time for the officers to tell him "three times" to put his hands up 'as he approached the car'.

Ergo, the statement *as reported* simply cannot be true. It may be the reporting is wrong or it may be the officers were wrong, but the statement *as reported* is - simply - not possible.

Quote"Three commands were given to put up his hands," deputy police chief Edward Tomba told reporters.

With a PA it is. You're assuming the cops told him three times from when they got out of the car. Timir was approaching them as they were still driving up (clearly seen on the vid). Patrol Cars have PA's you know.

... which is why I stressed that it could not have occurred *as reported*. The original report claimed that the officers told him three times to put up his hands 'as he approached the car'. The officers telling him through a PA 'as the car approached him' is a different scenario, with different implications - see discussion upthread.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:13:29 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:26:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 28, 2014, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM
Well, first of all - we have no idea what the officers "told" the kid. They claim they told him three times to put up his hands "as he approached the car", but that simply can't be true, right?

Why the hell can't it be true?

I keep telling you guys - you do not have enough information to make any definite opinions on this one.  Look, you can talk and discuss it (and you're quite right that 'tactical positioning' is a huge part of how you deal with a potential use of force incident), but you really shouldn't be coming to any firm opinions.

Because we can see the car pull in and 1.5 seconds later the kid is shot. There is not sufficient time for the officers to tell him "three times" to put his hands up 'as he approached the car'.

Ergo, the statement *as reported* simply cannot be true. It may be the reporting is wrong or it may be the officers were wrong, but the statement *as reported* is - simply - not possible.

Quote"Three commands were given to put up his hands," deputy police chief Edward Tomba told reporters.

With a PA it is. You're assuming the cops told him three times from when they got out of the car. Timir was approaching them as they were still driving up (clearly seen on the vid). Patrol Cars have PA's you know.

... which is why I stressed that it could not have occurred *as reported*. The original report claimed that the officers told him three times to put up his hands 'as he approached the car'. The officers telling him through a PA 'as the car approached him' is a different scenario, with different implications - see discussion upthread.

Timir was approaching the car as the car was pulling up.  From the time Timir got up from the bench and moved to towards the direction the the patrol car was approaching....7-8 seconds.

Watch the Vid.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:27:56 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 28, 2014, 03:57:29 PM

I keep telling you guys - you do not have enough information to make any definite opinions on this one.  Look, you can talk and discuss it (and you're quite right that 'tactical positioning' is a huge part of how you deal with a potential use of force incident), but you really shouldn't be coming to any firm opinions.

It wouldn't be Languish then.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:25:33 PM

Timir was approaching the car as the car was pulling up.  From the time Timir got up from the bench and moved to towards the direction the the patrol car was approaching....7-8 seconds.

Watch the Vid.

I have watched it. The kid never moves more than three or four slow steps from the bench he was sitting on.

Claiming (as was originally reported) that the cops told him three times to put up his hands 'as he approached the car' is flat-out misleading. The mental image that conjures up is a perp ignoring and threatening the officers by advancing on them - not at all what the video shows.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
Uh, anyone watching the video? They drive up on the grass right up to the kid and jump out. The shooter appears to stumble right out the door. How is that not "acting in haste?"

I saw an officer that fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it at that moment.  You see a bumbling cop. 
And people wonder why cop culture is insular and defensive.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:40:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:25:33 PM
Timir was approaching the car as the car was pulling up.  From the time Timir got up from the bench and moved to towards the direction the the patrol car was approaching....7-8 seconds.

Watch the Vid.

This is why instant replay is still a mess in the NFL. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
Uh, anyone watching the video? They drive up on the grass right up to the kid and jump out. The shooter appears to stumble right out the door. How is that not "acting in haste?"

I saw an officer that fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it at that moment.  You see a bumbling cop. 
And people wonder why cop culture is insular and defensive.

I saw a cop acting in haste and not properly prepared. So did you. ("fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it ")

The difference here is that you impute stuff to me I never said (a "bumbling cop").
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
I saw a cop acting in haste and not properly prepared. So did you. ("fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it ")

:lol:  I don't think he expected to slip on the snow, no.  He was not properly prepared for that. 

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:46:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
I saw a cop acting in haste and not properly prepared. So did you. ("fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it ")

:lol:  I don't think he expected to slip on the snow, no.  He was not properly prepared for that.

"surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it"

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 05:25:33 PM

Timir was approaching the car as the car was pulling up.  From the time Timir got up from the bench and moved to towards the direction the the patrol car was approaching....7-8 seconds.

Watch the Vid.

I have watched it. The kid never moves more than three or four slow steps from the bench he was sitting on.

Claiming (as was originally reported) that the cops told him three times to put up his hands 'as he approached the car' is flat-out misleading. The mental image that conjures up is a perp ignoring and threatening the officers by advancing on them - not at all what the video shows.

QuoteOne of the officers -- the one in the passenger seat -- told Tamir three times to "show your hands," Tomba told reporters.

"(The officer's) door was open as they pulled up," Tomba said. "He yelled three times as they pulled up."

The eight-minute surveillance video has no audio.

Police have said Tamir reached into his waistband and pulled out the weapon. The video shows Loehmann, the passenger-side officer, exiting the car, and Tamir falls down, apparently shot.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/

What vid are you watching. Three or four steps??? Timir is sitting at the table , gets up, moves around the table to his right, taking at least 8 steps in the patrol cars direction of approach.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:50:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:46:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
I saw a cop acting in haste and not properly prepared. So did you. ("fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it ")

:lol:  I don't think he expected to slip on the snow, no.  He was not properly prepared for that.

"surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it"

Yes, Malthus, contrary to what you may believe, I'm pretty sure the guy didn't come out of roll call that morning with the intent of shooting and killing a 12 year old boy.  Sometimes you're actually surprised.

And I'm out.  You're being an even more insufferable douchebag than usual, and that's quite a bit, even for your usual insufferable douchebag ass.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on November 28, 2014, 06:18:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:50:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:46:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 28, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
I saw a cop acting in haste and not properly prepared. So did you. ("fell backwards on his ass in the snow as he's backing up to get behind his car, surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it ")

:lol:  I don't think he expected to slip on the snow, no.  He was not properly prepared for that.

"surprised as shit he had to draw his weapon and use it"

Yes, Malthus, contrary to what you may believe, I'm pretty sure the guy didn't come out of roll call that morning with the intent of shooting and killing a 12 year old boy.  Sometimes you're actually surprised.
And I'm out.  You're being an even more insufferable douchebag than usual, and that's quite a bit, even for your usual insufferable douchebag ass.

Not by the way this thread reads.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 29, 2014, 01:13:54 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 28, 2014, 09:07:37 AM


Once they were actually up close and the kid went for something in his waistband, part of me can understand the reaction. But part of me feels like they should have taken in the totality of the situation, namely that this is clearly a little kid, a pre-teen even, and that they should consider what they're doing a little differently.

That being said it's probably worth mentioning this kid had an airsoft gun, which is somewhere between a the harmless toy Jacob is going "pew pew" with and a dangerous weapon. It's more akin to a sling shot--it is a toy, but you can really hurt someone with one. I played with such guns as a kid, but I spent a lot of time in rural areas, I'm not sure it's wise to let your kids play with air soft guns at public playgrounds in the city limits of a big city. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if it's against ordinance. I only bring that up to say that somewhere in the guardianship chain of this kid, something broke down. I wasn't allowed to touch an airlift gun until I had been thoroughly taught "this is for shooting stuff with like cans or whatever, you NEVER point this at another kid or shoot another kid with it." You could (to quote a famous movie) put someone's eye out.


My son has a replica AR-15 airsoft rifle, and he was and still is pissed at me that I won't let him play with his buddies in the park behind the local junior high school, even during the summer.

It is illegal to have a "weapon" in public in New York, and I told him that there was no way he was brandishing it in public. He thinks I am a big jerk who doesn't let him have any fun, and all his friends are allowed.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 29, 2014, 08:36:51 AM
I like this notion that we must blindly obedient to all orders from police officers or face immediate execution. Well as long as you are brown skinned.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on November 29, 2014, 08:49:48 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 08:36:51 AM
I like this notion that we must blindly obedient to all orders from police officers or face immediate execution. Well as long as you are brown skinned.

Yes, it must be rather disturbing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 29, 2014, 08:52:04 AM
Pretty sure police shoot white people too.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on November 29, 2014, 09:08:55 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 29, 2014, 08:52:04 AM
Pretty sure police shoot white people too.

Yes, but as black you're more likely to be shot.

http://www.poynter.org/news/mediawire/266133/fact-checking-claims-about-race-after-ferguson-shooting/

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 29, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
Look at it this way, if Garbon can roll a pair of dice and he gets shot if he rolls a 2 or 3, I'm not gonna roll those dice just because I'd have to get a 2.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 29, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
Look at it this way, if Garbon can roll a pair of dice and he gets shot if he rolls a 2 or 3, I'm not gonna roll those dice just because I'd have to get a 2.

You are less likely to be put in the situation to start: less likely have 911 caller scared of you, less likely to pose a threat while walking in a hoodie, less likely to be pulled over while driving normally, less likely to be called out for loitering suspiciously, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on November 29, 2014, 09:25:39 AM
Yes he does strike me as a bit unlikely.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 29, 2014, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 29, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
Look at it this way, if Garbon can roll a pair of dice and he gets shot if he rolls a 2 or 3, I'm not gonna roll those dice just because I'd have to get a 2.

You are less likely to be put in the situation to start: less likely have 911 caller scared of you, less likely to pose a threat while walking in a hoodie, less likely to be pulled over while driving normally, less likely to be called out for loitering suspiciously, etc, etc.


...and less likely to be engaging in a crime, to be brutally honest.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 29, 2014, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 29, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
Look at it this way, if Garbon can roll a pair of dice and he gets shot if he rolls a 2 or 3, I'm not gonna roll those dice just because I'd have to get a 2.

You are less likely to be put in the situation to start: less likely have 911 caller scared of you, less likely to pose a threat while walking in a hoodie, less likely to be pulled over while driving normally, less likely to be called out for loitering suspiciously, etc, etc.


...and less likely to be engaging in a crime, to be brutally honest.

Well ignoring the specifics of him and, I - sure.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:41:10 AM
I don't know if that excuses police action against said black person in the cases I listed other than that unfortunate first one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 29, 2014, 09:41:56 AM
I dunno, I have a feeling you'd have an easier time getting your hands on some oxy without a prescription. :shifty:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:44:35 AM
Why would I do that? Wouldn't it make more sense to contact the family physician? :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 29, 2014, 09:54:02 AM
Not if you want large quantities to sell. Your doc's gonna have a paper trail, while losses in the warehouse would be easier to hide or overlook.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
I don't think I am likely to want that. :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on November 29, 2014, 09:59:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 29, 2014, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 29, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
Look at it this way, if Garbon can roll a pair of dice and he gets shot if he rolls a 2 or 3, I'm not gonna roll those dice just because I'd have to get a 2.

You are less likely to be put in the situation to start: less likely have 911 caller scared of you, less likely to pose a threat while walking in a hoodie, less likely to be pulled over while driving normally, less likely to be called out for loitering suspiciously, etc, etc.


...and less likely to be engaging in a crime, to be brutally honest.

Well ignoring the specifics of him and, I - sure.

Well yeah - generalizations always ignore the specifics. It is what makes them so much fun!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 29, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
I don't think I am likely to want that. :unsure:

Me neither. I'd be terrible at any job involving sales.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 29, 2014, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 08:36:51 AM
I like this notion that we must blindly obedient to all orders from police officers or face immediate execution. Well as long as you are brown skinned.
Yeah. It's what I find most baffling and unacceptable.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 29, 2014, 11:31:01 AM
I'm not sure I see that being suggested here. I think in general it's reasonable if you fail to put your hands up, and in so failing, also make motions that could be reaching for a concealed weapon, you can expect a negative outcome. I don't think anyone expects to say, be shot in the back if a cop yells at you to "stop" and you just jog away. You might expect to be chased/detained, but not shot. I don't think anyone would expect a cop to shoot you if they told you to quit spray painting a wall and you didn't, or if they told you to say, leave a location where you were causing a disturbance. Expect something to happen? Sure, but people don't generally expect to get shot for disobeying any police order.

But if that order is put your hands in the air and your action is to reach into the folds of your clothes, I think most people familiar with police would recognize this was a perilous action.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 29, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 29, 2014, 11:31:01 AM
But if that order is put your hands in the air and your action is to reach into the folds of your clothes, I think most people familiar with police would recognize this was a perilous action.

Simply reaching into the folds of one's clothes is not grounds for lethal force.  Officers who have shot individuals for doing that get indicted.  Reaching into the folds of one's clothes and showing the butt of a handgun is a substantially different matter.

But these Cleveland cops can't win with the post-game analysis crowd.  Because they shouldn't have fired until he actually pulled it out.  Or they shouldn't have fired until he actually pulled it out and aimed it.  Or they shouldn't have fired until he actually pulled it out, aimed it and pulled the trigger, and so on and so forth.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 29, 2014, 02:04:57 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 29, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 29, 2014, 11:31:01 AM
But if that order is put your hands in the air and your action is to reach into the folds of your clothes, I think most people familiar with police would recognize this was a perilous action.

Simply reaching into the folds of one's clothes is not grounds for lethal force.  Officers who have shot individuals for doing that get indicted.  Reaching into the folds of one's clothes and showing the butt of a handgun is a substantially different matter.
[/quote]

I'd probably rather be not-shot than be shot and have the cop that did it indicted later, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on November 29, 2014, 07:08:30 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 29, 2014, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 08:36:51 AM
I like this notion that we must blindly obedient to all orders from police officers or face immediate execution. Well as long as you are brown skinned.
Yeah. It's what I find most baffling and unacceptable.
In general, I find it easier to keep track of the three things that don't baffle you than the endless things that baffle you or you can't understand.  It would probably dave you a lot of time of you only noted the things that you were, in fact, capable of understanding.   :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on November 29, 2014, 07:35:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 29, 2014, 07:08:30 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 29, 2014, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2014, 08:36:51 AM
I like this notion that we must blindly obedient to all orders from police officers or face immediate execution. Well as long as you are brown skinned.
Yeah. It's what I find most baffling and unacceptable.
In general, I find it easier to keep track of the three things that don't baffle you than the endless things that baffle you or you can't understand.  It would probably dave you a lot of time of you only noted the things that you were, in fact, capable of understanding.   :P

Damn it Dave, I'm out of time!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on November 29, 2014, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 29, 2014, 07:08:30 PM
In general, I find it easier to keep track of the three things that don't baffle you than the endless things that baffle you or you can't understand.  It would probably dave you a lot of time of you only noted the things that you were, in fact, capable of understanding.   :P
Aye. But it's the baffling and incomprehensible that marks difference and that's where the interest is.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 03, 2014, 02:16:32 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/michael-brown-stepfather-louis-head-apologizes-ferguson-riot-150251893.html

QuoteMichael Brown's stepfather apologizes for angry reaction to grand jury decision

Facing possible criminal charges for his angry reaction to the grand jury's decision not to charge Officer Darren Wilson in the killing of his stepson, Michael Brown's stepfather, Louis Head, apologized Wednesday.

"Something came over me as I watched and listened to my wife, the mother of Michael Brown Jr., react to the gut-wrenching news that the cop who killed her son wouldn't be charged with a crime," Head said in a statement to CNN. "My emotions admittedly got the best of me.

"This is my family," Head said. "I was so angry and full of raw emotions, as so many others were, and granted I screamed out words I shouldn't have screamed in the heat of the moment. I was wrong, and I humbly apologize to all those who read my anger and my pain as a true desire for what I want for the community."

After the decision was announced on Nov. 24, Head climbed on top of a car to comfort his wife, Leslie McSpadden, turned to the crowd and repeatedly shouted, "Burn this b---- down!" In the hours that followed, Ferguson, Mo., erupted in violent protests. Officials said two police cruisers and at least 12 buildings were set on fire and that hundreds of gunshots were fired during the demonstrations. Eighteen people were injured in the unrest, and at least 61 protesters were arrested.

On Tuesday, Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson told Fox News that the department was looking into Head's comments.

"We are pursuing those comments, and there's a lot of discussion going on about that right now," Jackson said. "[We are] currently looking into this as a part of the entire investigation that includes the arsons, looting and destruction of property."

"To place blame solely on me for the conditions of our community and country after the grand jury decision goes way too far and is as wrong as the decision itself," Head's statement continued. "To declare a state of emergency and send a message of war, not peace, before a grand jury decision is announced is also wrong."

St. Louis County Police spokesman Brian Schellman told the Associated Press that officials are looking into Head's comments as part of a broader investigation into the arson, vandalism and looting that followed.

Head added: "In the end I've lived in this community for a long time. The last thing I truly wanted was to see it go up in flames. In spite of my frustration, it really hurt me to see that. It's time to rebuild. If we are to honor Michael Brown's memory we need to work together to make rebuilding happen. I plan to remain here and do my part in earnest truth."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 02:26:10 PM
Apologies are less effective when you start throwing out excuses and get all defensive afterwards.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 02:54:46 PM
Oh, shut the fuck up already, you ignorant douchebag.  Fathers who bury sons get a pass on the shit they say.  So fuck off. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 02:26:10 PM
Apologies are less effective when you start throwing out excuses and get all defensive afterwards.

Has anyone apologized for the death of his son?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:04:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 02:54:46 PM
Oh, shut the fuck up already, you ignorant douchebag.  Fathers who bury sons get a pass on the shit they say.  So fuck off. 

It was his step-father, and if you incite a mob you're still responsible for your words.  Losing a step-son or even your own son is no excuse to incite people to burn down a neighborhood. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:06:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 02:26:10 PM
Apologies are less effective when you start throwing out excuses and get all defensive afterwards.

Has anyone apologized for the death of his son?

The Ferguson police chief did.  Not sure why, but he did.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:07:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:04:54 PM
It was his step-father, and if you incite a mob you're still responsible for your words.  Losing a step-son or even your own son is no excuse to incite people to burn down a neighborhood.

It's nice how you focus on the important fact that he was "only" a step-father.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:08:42 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:06:27 PMThe Ferguson police chief did.  Not sure why, but he did.

Did it contain any excuses and was it followed by defensiveness?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:07:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:04:54 PM
It was his step-father, and if you incite a mob you're still responsible for your words.  Losing a step-son or even your own son is no excuse to incite people to burn down a neighborhood.

It's nice how you focus on the important fact that he was "only" a step-father.

Well, you know how those dirty damned negroes are, what with all that out of wedlock babymaking and welfare queens and all the dirty damned negro shit they do, et cetera, et cetera.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
This fella Louis Head is also a convicted felon out on parole, if you want to throw that in to the mix, Seedy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 03:18:19 PM
He's just covering all the stereotypes for you, isn't he?  All he's missing is the kufi and a chicken leg in his hand, looking to rape white wimmin.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:19:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
This fella Louis Head is also a convicted felon out on parole, if you want to throw that in to the mix, Seedy.

What'd he do?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:19:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:07:48 PM
It's nice how you focus on the important fact that he was "only" a step-father.

I was just correcting Seedy's error.

Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:08:42 PM
Did it contain any excuses and was it followed by defensiveness?

I don't believe so.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 03, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Something like 70% of Ferguson are convicted felons because they couldn't pay their $1500 traffic fines on time. The place is a nightmare of crime-based revenue cultivation.

So is the dude a felon for failing to pay his rolling stop ticket or a real one?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:20:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 03:18:19 PM
He's just covering all the stereotypes for you, isn't he?  All he's missing is the kufi and a chicken leg in his hand, looking to rape white wimmin.

No, don't be silly.  I do believe he has a gold toof', though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on December 03, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
Planet of the Apes is not over yet.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on December 03, 2014, 03:21:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p04BeElmr0o
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 03, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Something like 70% of Ferguson are convicted felons because they couldn't pay their $1500 traffic fines on time. The place is a nightmare of crime-based revenue cultivation.

So is the dude a felon for failing to pay his rolling stop ticket or a real one?

And let me guess, felons can't vote right?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:25:54 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:19:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
This fella Louis Head is also a convicted felon out on parole, if you want to throw that in to the mix, Seedy.

What'd he do?

Two narcotics convictions; may be some other stuff as well.  He's been in & out of prison and has violated his parole before. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: lustindarkness on December 03, 2014, 03:43:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 29, 2014, 01:13:54 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 28, 2014, 09:07:37 AM


Once they were actually up close and the kid went for something in his waistband, part of me can understand the reaction. But part of me feels like they should have taken in the totality of the situation, namely that this is clearly a little kid, a pre-teen even, and that they should consider what they're doing a little differently.

That being said it's probably worth mentioning this kid had an airsoft gun, which is somewhere between a the harmless toy Jacob is going "pew pew" with and a dangerous weapon. It's more akin to a sling shot--it is a toy, but you can really hurt someone with one. I played with such guns as a kid, but I spent a lot of time in rural areas, I'm not sure it's wise to let your kids play with air soft guns at public playgrounds in the city limits of a big city. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if it's against ordinance. I only bring that up to say that somewhere in the guardianship chain of this kid, something broke down. I wasn't allowed to touch an airlift gun until I had been thoroughly taught "this is for shooting stuff with like cans or whatever, you NEVER point this at another kid or shoot another kid with it." You could (to quote a famous movie) put someone's eye out.


My son has a replica AR-15 airsoft rifle, and he was and still is pissed at me that I won't let him play with his buddies in the park behind the local junior high school, even during the summer.

It is illegal to have a "weapon" in public in New York, and I told him that there was no way he was brandishing it in public. He thinks I am a big jerk who doesn't let him have any fun, and all his friends are allowed.

Airsoft as a sport has grown a lot in the area, it used to be a bunch of us old farts that usually are a lot smarter about real looking weapons in public, now as the sport grows there are a lot more not so smart kids out there.

For example, we used play at a public park after midnight with the blessing of the local PD. Now we can only play at paid airsoft fields because kids started to go to the park by themselves, earlier in the evening and not in organized games (read no one called the PD ahead of time). Just imagine joggers freaking out calling 911 that a bunch of kids with assault rifles were at the park.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 03:47:36 PM
QuoteN.Y. / Region
In Eric Garner Chokehold Case, Grand Jury Is Said Not to Charge N.Y.P.D. Officer
By J. DAVID GOODMAN and AL BAKERDEC. 3, 2014

A Staten Island grand jury has voted not to bring criminal charges in the death of Eric Garner, a black man who died after being placed in a chokehold by a white police officer, two people briefed on the matter said Wednesday.

The decision was reached on Wednesday after months of testimony including from the officer who used the chokehold, Daniel Pantaleo. Mr. Garner died after the violent confrontation. The grand jury reached its decision less than two weeks after a grand jury in Ferguson, Mo., declined to bring charges against a white officer who fatally shot an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown.

For days, the New York Police Department has been readying for a new round of protests, which began in the city after the Ferguson decision and were expected to continue and possibly grow if the grand jury declined to bring charges against the officer.

The officer at the center of the Staten Island case released a statement offering the family of Mr. Garner his sympathies.

"I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can't protect themselves," Officer Pantaleo said. "It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner. My family and I include him and his family in our prayers and I hope that they will accept my personal condolences for their loss."

Jonathan C. Moore, a lawyer for the Garner family, said they hoped that federal prosecutors would continue to examine the case, and he urged people upset by the decision to voice their dismay, but to do so peacefully.

"We're astounded by the outcome of the grand jury process and that after hearing months of evidence and having deliberated that they would find no true bill as to any potential criminal charge," Mr. Moore said in a brief phone interview.

"It's very upsetting to us – we obviously hope that the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District, Loretta Lynch, will take a close look at this."

In Ferguson, protesters and police officers clashed in the streets almost immediately after Mr. Brown's killing by Officer Darren Wilson in August; riots erupted on the night the grand jury's decision was announced last month. By contrast, in late August, a demonstration on Staten Island over the death of Mr. Garner, 43, proceeded without confrontation or arrest.

Police Commissioner William J. Bratton, speaking at a news conference earlier Wednesday, said that he expected any protests to be peaceful and that the police were prepared to deal with anyone seeking to cause trouble.

"We have had quite a bit of time to prepare for the events that will unfold here for the next few days," Mr. Bratton said.

While seeking to ensure that people can voice their opinions, Mr. Bratton said the police would "take forceful action" against those who used the protests to break the law.

The grand jury, impanelled by District Attorney Daniel M. Donovan Jr. in September, has weighed evidence – including a video recorded by bystanders of Mr. Garner's violent arrest – and heard testimony from the officers involved.

Grand juries determine whether enough evidence exists for a case to go forward to a criminal trial, either before a jury or a judge. By law, they operate in secret and hear only evidence presented by prosecutors, who also instruct the grand jurors on the law. Defense lawyers are barred from speaking. For a decision, 12 jurors who have heard all the evidence must agree.

An indictment was considered only against Officer Pantaleo, who testified last, on Nov. 21, his lawyer, Stuart London, said. The other officers received immunity, he said.

The case exposed lapses in police tactics – chokeholds are banned by the Police Department's own guidelines – and raised questions about the aggressive policing of minor offenses in a time of historically low crime. The officers, part of a plainclothes unit, suspected Mr. Garner of selling loose cigarettes on the street near the Staten Island Ferry Terminal, a complaint among local business owners.

Mr. Garner's death hastened an effort to retrain all the department's patrol officers and brought scrutiny on how officers who violate its rules are disciplined. Officer Pantaleo has been stripped of his gun and badge.

It was unclear whether Officer Pantaleo would return to enforcement duties.Commissioner . Bratton said he would remain on suspension pending an internal investigation by the Police Department.

The Rev. Al Sharpton, who is scheduled to hold a news conference with Mr. Garner's family later in the evening, said that he was not surprised by the decision and that he had little faith in local prosecutors to pursue cases against the police.

"People thought we were being extreme," said Mr. Sharpton. "But now, I think you can see, we have no confidence in the state grand juries, whether in Ferguson or in New York, because there is an intrinsic relationship between state prosecutors and the police; they depend on the police for their evidence, they run for office and depend on the unions for endorsements."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on December 03, 2014, 04:53:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 03:47:36 PM
Quote"I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can't protect themselves," Officer Pantaleo said. "It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner. My family and I include him and his family in our prayers and I hope that they will accept my personal condolences for their loss."

It was a chokehold.  A move so dangerous it's banned by pretty much every law enforcement agency across the country.  Either he's full of it or too stupid to wear the badge.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 04:55:15 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on December 03, 2014, 04:53:15 PM
It was a chokehold.  A move so dangerous it's banned by pretty much every law enforcement agency across the country.  Either he's full of it or too stupid to wear the badge.

But see, it's OK, because the suspect was black.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:25:54 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 03:19:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
This fella Louis Head is also a convicted felon out on parole, if you want to throw that in to the mix, Seedy.

What'd he do?

Two narcotics convictions; may be some other stuff as well.  He's been in & out of prison and has violated his parole before.

Any idea if those were "had 25 kg of cocaine" or "was smoking a joint on his porch" convictions?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on December 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:04:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 02:54:46 PM
Oh, shut the fuck up already, you ignorant douchebag.  Fathers who bury sons get a pass on the shit they say.  So fuck off. 

It was his step-father, and if you incite a mob you're still responsible for your words.  Losing a step-son or even your own son is no excuse to incite people to burn down a neighborhood. 

I know I know.  White property > black lives.  I watched Do the Right Thing as well.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 04:58:51 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
Any idea if those were "had 25 kg of cocaine" or "was smoking a joint on his porch" convictions?

No clue, man.  Let us know what you find out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 03, 2014, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM
I know I know.  White property > black lives.  I watched Do the Right Thing as well.

Mookie was a little punk.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 05:00:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 03:04:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 02:54:46 PM
Oh, shut the fuck up already, you ignorant douchebag.  Fathers who bury sons get a pass on the shit they say.  So fuck off. 

It was his step-father, and if you incite a mob you're still responsible for your words.  Losing a step-son or even your own son is no excuse to incite people to burn down a neighborhood. 

I know I know.  White property > black lives.  I watched Do the Right Thing as well.

A black life was lost in the rioting & several were injured.  Some of the damaged/destroyed businesses were minority-owned.  Add that to your equation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 03, 2014, 05:07:38 PM
I hope NYC doesn't decide to act crazy tonight.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
Any idea if those were "had 25 kg of cocaine" or "was smoking a joint on his porch" convictions?

A joint on your porch doesn't get you a felony.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 03, 2014, 06:36:18 PM
I can hear the protesters from my office (and I'm on the 14th floor). Chants of "fight back!" Unlike Mono, I'm torn as I sympathize with them but wish they would protest...somewhere else. :D -_-
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 03, 2014, 06:42:42 PM
I guess cops have better lawyers on their side than ham sandwiches in these grand juries.  Some of these lawyers probably even have titles like ADA.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 06:48:14 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 03, 2014, 06:36:18 PM
I can hear the protesters from my office (and I'm on the 14th floor). Chants of "fight back!" Unlike Mono, I'm torn as I sympathize with them but wish they would protest...somewhere else. :D -_-

garbon's the local chapter president for the Bitch Panthers.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 07:00:13 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

I simply don't understand why he was ever, ever hired by Cleveland PD after that.

When I did background investigations for applicants, and we found shit like that in someone's jacket with their former agency, that was it.  Application terminated. 

QuoteCleveland officials drove to Independence to gather information about hiring the officer who eventually shot Tamir Rice but never looked at his personnel file.

Jesus. H. Christ.   
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 03, 2014, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 06:48:14 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 03, 2014, 06:36:18 PM
I can hear the protesters from my office (and I'm on the 14th floor). Chants of "fight back!" Unlike Mono, I'm torn as I sympathize with them but wish they would protest...somewhere else. :D -_-

garbon's the local chapter president for the Bitch Panthers.  :P

I'm just trying to get home quickly after a long day in the office / I'm trying to leave for London so don't try and get me caught up in such mess, kthxbye! -_-
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Siege on December 03, 2014, 07:05:55 PM
So, was the cop guilty or not?
I mean your opinion,  of course.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 07:07:02 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
Any idea if those were "had 25 kg of cocaine" or "was smoking a joint on his porch" convictions?

A joint on your porch doesn't get you a felony.

Even for Black people in Missouri?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 07:13:49 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 07:07:02 PM
Even for Black people in Missouri?

You win.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 03, 2014, 07:29:12 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 07:07:02 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
Any idea if those were "had 25 kg of cocaine" or "was smoking a joint on his porch" convictions?

A joint on your porch doesn't get you a felony.


Even for Black people in Missouri?

Typically no.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 03, 2014, 07:33:53 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1 (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1)

Oh Christ.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 03, 2014, 07:38:05 PM
His handgun performance seemed adequate based on what I saw.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on December 03, 2014, 07:40:59 PM
QuoteA Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann's personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was "distracted" and "weepy."


WEEPY...WEEPY WTF IS THAT. DID HE START SQUIRTING TEARS ON THE RANGE. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 03, 2014, 08:20:02 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 07:00:13 PM
When I did background investigations for applicants, and we found shit like that in someone's jacket with their former agency, that was it.  Application terminated. 

Seedy ran a no-bullshit operation.  He was known as tough, but fair.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 03, 2014, 08:22:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on December 03, 2014, 07:40:59 PM
QuoteA Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann's personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was "distracted" and "weepy."


WEEPY...WEEPY WTF IS THAT. DID HE START SQUIRTING TEARS ON THE RANGE. :lol:

Apparently, yes.  That he wanted in to "see more action" should have raised some flags.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on December 03, 2014, 08:33:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 07:00:13 PM

QuoteCleveland officials drove to Independence to gather information about hiring the officer who eventually shot Tamir Rice but never looked at his personnel file.

Jesus. H. Christ.   

What?  That's nuts.

Apparently I did more to screen job applicants for sales clerk positions than they did for a cop. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 03, 2014, 09:53:24 PM
As I was walking home through the protesters and cops (they must be making loops around the Bryant Park area as they passed by my building several times), I've decided that I'm really angry about all of this - that which this thread is about. Speaking with both my sisters, they've mostly been sad about the various events but I've decided I'm angry. Of course, I'm trying to calm down as there really isn't much sense in sitting all pissy in my apt. :D  :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
[mono]Join the mob of hate-filled rioters?[/mono]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on December 03, 2014, 10:00:52 PM
http://www.policemisconduct.net/is-there-a-connection-between-police-unions-and-abusive-cops/ (http://www.policemisconduct.net/is-there-a-connection-between-police-unions-and-abusive-cops/)




Public sector unions == win
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 03, 2014, 10:05:43 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
[mono]Join the mob of hate-filled rioters?[/mono]

Well that probably would just make me angrier. :D

Besides, I don't think it would help much to join in on the insanity that is happening.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 03, 2014, 10:24:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 03, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
Any idea if those were "had 25 kg of cocaine" or "was smoking a joint on his porch" convictions?

A joint on your porch doesn't get you a felony.

But a tiny bit of cocaine or LSD or heroin in your living room does -- in many states, if not most, possession of any quantity of a "hard" drug is a felony.  Vermont -- along with Mass., N.Y., Penna., D.C. and as of two weeks ago, the good people of California by ballot prop (customarily leading the way in good and bad ideas alike) -- is lucky to even have a misdemeanor poss. of heroin charge.

And you don't need to possess all that much pot to get up to felony range, just a half-ounce in some places (Tenn. for sure, many other states too; I'm sure NORML has a map), or if you've been caught with a joint a couple times over the course of your life prior to the current hypothetical one being smoked on the porch, you're a three-time-loser recidivist (check out Louisiana's MJ laws; a third MJ possession offense, however small, gets you like a 10 or 15 year min in prison.)

The main thing, though, is that almost *any* sale or delivery of drugs is a felony in most every state, even if it is just selling a gram of weed.  So slanging a little bit of rock as a teenager can make you a "narcotics felon" even if you were just a bit player with no violent history, and even if you never got a prison sentence at all but just plead out to the felony so you could get probation and get out of jail right then.

Here in Vt., the cut-off for felony heroin possession is set unrealistically low at 200mg, which is basically the real low end of the daily-use range for addicts (i.e 5-6 light bags).  A bundle of 10 bags is the main unit that people purchase, and ordinary addicts can frequently develop habits of two or three buns a day. But possession of a single bundle is a felony charge, since they calculate dope at ~30mg/bag

Vermont is quite good in not having a law against paraphernalia; not having a charge of "possession with intent to distribute" (except for trafficking which has more complex elements); not having any crack cocaine/powder cocaine disparity or even crack charge -- cocaine is just cocaine. 

[Not having any restrictions on carrying a gun either, the important exception being the absolute ban on keeping loaded guns in the passenger compartment of a vehicle.  This is a Fish and Wildlife offense, as the law was intended to crack down on unsporting poachers who'll take a shot at a deer on the shoulder from their seat in the cab, those who'll get to "spotting" or "jacking" the deer with headlights on the roadside, so as to stun the deer in its tracks and blow it away. :mad: :Canuck:)

[EDIT:  Not having a law against paying for handjobs either, recently confirmed by the Vt.SCt.  It was quite funny.  The Burlington police  and the big-shot SA did a big raid on some Asian massage places last year, hyping it up as the moral fight against human trafficking, etc.  But they only caught guys getting HJs.  And sex acts are defined really clearly in the statute, if you bother to take a look at it.  Some kind of concave-convex penetration, whichever orifice and however slight, must take place.  So the Court agreed -- no constitutional way to read this law to include handjobs, all the johns and madams were within their rights to do business about HJs.  Got a good chuckle that they didn't even check the law before staging this operation.  I think the movement to ban them in the Legislature kind of died out since, well, it's prostitution for handjobs...]

Yet the felony/misdemeanor cut-off for cocaine is set at the much more reasonable personal use amount of 2.5g -- a bit under the classic eightball.  I won't hazard any guesses about the reasons behind the heroin/cocaine disparity.  Pills also get treated much better.  You could have 99 of Oxy 80s or Dilaudid 8s and that's still only a misdemeanor, even though it's probably as strong as 30 or 40 bags of dope.

The MJ law in this state is wacky, too.  Last year,  <1 oz of the wacky tabacky was reduced to a civil ticket to great fanfare.  To the Legislature's credit, they explicitly blocked the loopholes that are used to screw you regardless.  Like in Mass., which decriminalized pot, but anyone caught smoking it outside their home can get busted.  Or in N.C., where the baggie holding the pot or the rolling papers holding a joint can constitute "paraphernalia," and completely override the softening of the pot laws they've done

But with troubling oversight, the Vt Legislature didn't bump down the other MJ possession amounts when they bumped down the one amount  to "decriminalized" status.  So from 1 joint to 1 ounce, the penalty is equivalent to a traffic ticket.  From 1 ounce to 2 ounces, it's a misdemeanor criminal charge with a maximum 6 months in jail.  And over 2 oz is still a felony carrying up to 3 years! :hmm: 

The quantity spectrum from a $200 fine max and no record to 3 years and a felony record seems awfully tight to me. Newsworthy pot busts these days tend to be in the 3-4 pound or 50-100 plant range.  Truly, two ounces isn't more than a reasonable Costco purchase for a devoted toker; at an eighth or so a day, it would last a single person person a bit over two weeks, less so if he shared as he'd be expected to.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 10:33:30 PM
And eighth a day??  :blink:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 03, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
You gotta get out more, homes.  There are some legitimate pot addicts out there these days, way more than in the past, given how potent average weed has become, let alone the trendy stuff I don't get, like "dabs" and "wax."  But yeah, most eighth-a-day'ers would be sharing significantly -- rolling blunts throughout the day will use up a ton of weed, but obviously they are a social thing to be shared with your homeboys, not smoked alone watching Qoyanasqaatsi.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 10:44:20 PM
But, like, dude...pot isn't, like...wait...oh, yeah...like, addicting at all, man.  *bubble bubble bubble*
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 03, 2014, 10:46:21 PM
I suddenly want some Funyuns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on December 03, 2014, 10:48:27 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 03, 2014, 10:46:21 PM
I suddenly want some Funyuns.

I had a bag with lunch today. :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 10:50:30 PM
All fucking stoners must fucking hang.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 03, 2014, 11:03:29 PM
I just took half a Narco.  :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on December 03, 2014, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: Siege on December 03, 2014, 07:05:55 PM
So, was the cop guilty or not?
I mean your opinion,  of course.

Which cop?  The Fergusen one?  It seems he was not guilty.  But an investigation needed to be done and I was glad it happened.  Maybe if they had used as much care at the beginning of this crisis a lot of nonsense could have been avoided.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 11:37:41 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 03, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
You gotta get out more, homes.  There are some legitimate pot addicts out there these days, way more than in the past, given how potent average weed has become, let alone the trendy stuff I don't get, like "dabs" and "wax."  But yeah, most eighth-a-day'ers would be sharing significantly -- rolling blunts throughout the day will use up a ton of weed, but obviously they are a social thing to be shared with your homeboys, not smoked alone watching Qoyanasqaatsi.

An eighth a day is a full time job.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 03, 2014, 11:59:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 03, 2014, 11:37:41 PM

An eighth a day is a full time job.

A full-time job, perhaps, but one you can do from home or on top of another full-time job if it's mindless enough.  And a job where you can basically afford it without having to deal or commit other crimes... assuming you bought bulk, and an ounce of regular grade pot goes for $70-120, it's only $9-12 a day or so.  I see people spend more than that on scratchies every time I go to the gas station.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 04, 2014, 05:19:38 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on December 03, 2014, 04:53:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2014, 03:47:36 PM
Quote"I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can't protect themselves," Officer Pantaleo said. "It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner. My family and I include him and his family in our prayers and I hope that they will accept my personal condolences for their loss."

It was a chokehold.  A move so dangerous it's banned by pretty much every law enforcement agency across the country.  Either he's full of it or too stupid to wear the badge.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/

QuotePatrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch said, "there are no winners" from the grand jury decision.

"It is clear that the officer's intention was to do nothing more than take Mr. Garner into custody as instructed and that he used the take-down technique that he learned in the academy when Mr. Garner refused," Lynch said. "No police officer starts a shift intending to take another human being's life and we are all saddened by this tragedy."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 04, 2014, 07:46:08 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html

QuoteCleveland officer who shot Tamir Rice had 'dismal' handgun performance for Independence police

LAND, Ohio — The Cleveland police officer who shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice had issues with handling guns during his brief tenure with a suburban police department.

A Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann's personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was "distracted" and "weepy."

"He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal," according to the letter written by Deputy Chief Jim Polak of the Independence police.

The letter recommended that the department part ways with Loehmann, who went on to become a police officer with the Cleveland Division of Police.

"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies," Polak said.


Cleveland police said on Wednesday that they never reviewed the Independence file and changed their policies to include checking publicly available records for potential hires. 

Loehmann is currently under investigation by the Cleveland police department's use of deadly force investigation team, made up of homicide detectives, several internal units and city and Cuyahoga County prosecutors in the Nov. 22 shooting outside the Cudell Recreation Center.

Loehmann shot Tamir less than two seconds after he arrived to investigate a complaint about Tamir carrying what turned out to be a fake gun.

Independence released Loehmann's personnel file Wednesday, the day after Cleveland police released files for him and his partner during the shooting.

In an interview with the Northeast Ohio Media Group, Loehmann's father said that his son left Independence to pursue a job with Cleveland police because he wanted "more action."

It is unclear if Cleveland officials saw the Independence files before Loehmann was hired in Cleveland. A message left for Cleveland police spokesman Sgt. Ali Pillow was not immediately returned.

Loehmann's Cleveland personnel file shows someone marked a letter from Loehmann in which he wrote that he resigned from Independence one day after graduating from the Cleveland Heights Police Academy.

Someone also jotted down the name and phone number for Polak and Independence Police Chief Michael Kilbane. The file does not say if Cleveland officials contacted Independence.

Loehmann was allowed to resign from the Independence police. He tendered his resignation Dec. 4, 2012 after six months with the department. He was hired in March of this year by Cleveland police.

The Independence report details a host of issues with Loehmann's performance as an officer during his short stint with the department.

Loehmann's troubles began in 2012 while he attended the Cleveland Heights Police Academy. An issue with an on-again, off-again girlfriend caused Loehmann distress and, in one case, he fell asleep during training, according to a written report from Independence Police Sgt. Greg Tinnirello.

Loehmann told Tinnirello that he cried often about his personal issue during training and Loehmann's mother told Tinnierello that her son's study papers "would be soaked in tears nightly for three months."

On Nov. 26, 2012, Loehmann was ordered to stay in the Independence police dispatch center. Loehmann left without authorization and lied to Tinnierello that the dispatchers told him he could leave, the letter says.

Loehmann eventually admitted to lying.

The problems at Independence erupted on Nov. 28, 2012, the records say. Loehmann showed up "sleepy and upset" for a 6 a.m. state gun qualification session.

Tinnierello wrote that Loehmann "was distracted and was not following simple instructions" at the shooting range.

At one point, he went to the back of the range to reload his magazine and could not return to the line where he was supposed to shoot from, Tinnierello wrote. Loehmann appeared to be crying and was emotionally upset so Tinnierello said they would stop the exercise for the day.

Tinnierello and Loehmann talked about Loehmann's personal problems as they made the 40-minute drive to Atwells Police Supply to pick up a bulletproof vest for Loehmann.

Loehmann told Tinnierello that he "was unclear where his future was headed" and thought about quitting when Tinnierello told him he would continue training until Independence police thought he could handle the job.

"Loehmann stated 'that just makes me want to quit,'" Tinnierello replied, according to Tinnierello.

Tinnierello reported the information to Polak. The two decided to send Loehmann home for the day and call his parents because they were concerned for his well-being. The three met the next day.

Loehmann told his supervisors that he spoke with two friends, a priest and a Cleveland police officer about how to deal with personal stress at work. Loehmann expressed his frustration about for a small police department in Independence instead of living in New York where he could be close to friends.

He told Polak that he wanted to work at the New York Police Department where his father worked for 20 years.

Polak concluded his report by saying that Loehmann lacked the maturity to understand the severity of his breakdown on the shooting range.

"Unfortunately in law enforcement there are times when instructions need to be followed to the letter and I am under the impression that Ptl. Loehmann, under certain circumstances, will not react in the way instructed," Polak wrote.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2014, 08:03:40 AM
The fact that jury didn't indict the choker caught on camera is a bit of a hit to the movement to outfit every cop with camera.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2014, 08:03:40 AM
The fact that jury didn't indict the choker caught on camera is a bit of a hit to the movement to outfit every cop with camera.
Still better than nothing.  The sad truth is that without any video evidence, the cop will practically never ever be indicted for a killing.  The other cops on the scene will perjure themselves, the cops arriving to the scene to investigate will not be assholes, and the district attorney will fail to get an indictment in an archaic institution that is rigged to always give them an indictment.  I bet that most of those involved in the miscarriage of justice will feel like they're just bending the rules a little to do the right thing.

With the body camera footage present, there is at least a chance that they will be made public, and that may make it very hard to engage in the standard conspiracy to clear bad cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 10:26:54 AM
It would have helped clarify the Michael Brown shooting much earlier.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
No justice, no tree?  :rolleyes:

http://nypost.com/2014/12/03/protests-against-nypd-chokehold-decision-begin/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 04, 2014, 10:42:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
No justice, no tree?  :rolleyes:

http://nypost.com/2014/12/03/protests-against-nypd-chokehold-decision-begin/

Well it was a flashy, easily available target.  It is also why they were near my office last night when I was leaving.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: KRonn on December 04, 2014, 10:55:26 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2014, 08:03:40 AM
The fact that jury didn't indict the choker caught on camera is a bit of a hit to the movement to outfit every cop with camera.
Still better than nothing.  The sad truth is that without any video evidence, the cop will practically never ever be indicted for a killing.  The other cops on the scene will perjure themselves, the cops arriving to the scene to investigate will not be assholes, and the district attorney will fail to get an indictment in an archaic institution that is rigged to always give them an indictment.  I bet that most of those involved in the miscarriage of justice will feel like they're just bending the rules a little to do the right thing.

With the body camera footage present, there is at least a chance that they will be made public, and that may make it very hard to engage in the standard conspiracy to clear bad cops.

I thought there was video of this incident, with the guy saying he can't breathe? This case surprises me that at least some indictment of negligence or something wasn't made, but then we don't have all the evidence and just what the media reports.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 10:59:10 AM
So, are US blacks more violent than US whites; or do media fail to report on whites being killed by cops; or are cops racist murderers? Which one is it?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 11:06:29 AM
White cops killing blacks makes for big news.  It feeds the narrative of whites oppressing blacks.  And in fairness it is a lot rarer than blacks killing blacks.

As to the actual statistics, there does not seem to be a consensus: http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 04, 2014, 01:23:01 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2014%2F12%2F4%2F1417709807684%2F8af23da2-0ac1-4c19-8ee7-1c83e61f9370-382x420.png&hash=a36c9b39cca8a668c6cc48bc2ecdf149b0793b76)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Habbaku on December 04, 2014, 02:47:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 03, 2014, 10:00:52 PM
http://www.policemisconduct.net/is-there-a-connection-between-police-unions-and-abusive-cops/ (http://www.policemisconduct.net/is-there-a-connection-between-police-unions-and-abusive-cops/)




Public sector unions == win

But, like, um, they're there to, uh, stop capitalism from, er, stomping the little man, like, or something.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2014, 03:13:06 PM
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2014, 04:18:43 PM
Interesting factoid from The Economist: at the last local election, only 1/8 of Ferguson eligible voters cast a ballot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2014, 04:18:43 PM
Interesting factoid from The Economist: at the last local election, only 1/8 of Ferguson eligible voters cast a ballot.
I think "local election" is the keyword.  Since when did they have a high turnout?  How does this compare to other places?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 04, 2014, 01:23:01 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2014%2F12%2F4%2F1417709807684%2F8af23da2-0ac1-4c19-8ee7-1c83e61f9370-382x420.png&hash=a36c9b39cca8a668c6cc48bc2ecdf149b0793b76)

This sounds reasonable, I guess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 04:32:19 PM
They pulled it almost immediately due to the shit they got for it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 04, 2014, 04:34:58 PM
Their social media team have not covered themselves with glory. Seeing them argue with a football team over the definition of 'apology' was a particular low.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on December 04, 2014, 04:40:13 PM
Whoosh.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
Why is the post offensive or inappropriate? It seems reasonable.

Also, should a police department have a competent "social media team"?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 04, 2014, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
Why is the post offensive or inappropriate? It seems reasonable.

Sometimes people don't like to listen to reason.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2014, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 04:20:50 PM
I think "local election" is the keyword.  Since when did they have a high turnout?  How does this compare to other places?

I raised it because I thought the key word was "people bitching about a black majority town having a white government."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 04, 2014, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
Why is the post offensive or inappropriate? It seems reasonable.
It's not that bad. The advice itself I think is generally fine. The title 'kids will be kids?' is awful. I think the timing is also very bad, especially as it's actually naming the kid who was killed.

QuoteAlso, should a police department have a competent "social media team"?
Of course, maybe not every department - especially as the US seems to have very small ones. But it's another way of communicating with their community and with the media. Those are both pretty important aspects of the police's job.

They can help communicate information directly to their community and can help calm situations down. Also I've seen them getting out details of missing people very successfully when those stories aren't of interest to the media. It seems that it is a pretty useful tool, just like having a competent press officer was forty years ago.

But I've seen a few Twitter and Facebook posts by this department and I don't get the impression that's what they're doing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2014, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 04, 2014, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
QuoteAlso, should a police department have a competent "social media team"?
Of course, maybe not every department - especially as the US seems to have very small ones. But it's another way of communicating with their community and with the media. Those are both pretty important aspects of the police's job.

They can help communicate information directly to their community and can help calm situations down. Also I've seen them getting out details of missing people very successfully when those stories aren't of interest to the media. It seems that it is a pretty useful tool, just like having a competent press officer was forty years ago.

But I've seen a few Twitter and Facebook posts by this department and I don't get the impression that's what they're doing.

Some of your more progressive agencies have civilianized, or at least made major civilian inroads for their media relations department, particularly out west.  IIRC, Portland PD's media people are all civilians and public relations professionals.

Unfortunately, media and public relations units are just like everything else in a police department;  it's for sworn uniformed personnel, with specific slotting.  When I was in it, I was never on television because I wasn't in a uniform.  Remember my buddy, Corporal Reuters?  :lol:

It's a cop thing, just like everything else: "we know what we're doing, because we're cops and you're not." 

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 05:50:57 PM
My brother's best friend is the Public Information Officer for WV State Police.  He was on national TV the other day when some dude shot 4 people in Morgantown.  Great guy, close friend of the family, but I keep telling him to work on that damned accent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Norgy on December 04, 2014, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:48:19 PM

Also, should a police department have a competent "social media team"?

If they are on social media, they should know how to communicate. Far to many companies and organisations are on social media "just because", and fail miserably.
Use the presence for something useful, or just stay away altogether.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 04, 2014, 06:19:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 05:50:57 PM
My brother's best friend is the Public Information Officer for WV State Police.  He was on national TV the other day when some dude shot 4 people in Morgantown.  Great guy, close friend of the family, but I keep telling him to work on that damned accent.

MAH GRAVY
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 04, 2014, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
Why is the post offensive or inappropriate? It seems reasonable.

Also, should a police department have a competent "social media team"?

If they use social media, then they probably should aim to have competent people involved, yes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2014, 07:11:50 PM
A bit old, but I don't remember this video being posted here. If it was please ignore, but I thought it was on topic.

http://www.wltx.com/story/news/local/2014/09/24/video-released-released-of-trooper-involved-shooting/16187305/
QuoteVideo Released of Trooper-Involved Shooting

11:52 a.m. EDT September 25, 2014

Columbia, SC (WLTX) - The video showing a shooting involving a former South Carolina state trooper and an unarmed man has been released to the public.

The video was taken from the dash camera installed inside 31-year-old Sean Groubert's vehicle during an encounter in which Groubert shot 35-year-old Levar Jones on September 4th. The incident took place at a Circle K gas station on Broad River Road in Columbia.

Groubert was charged Wednesday with assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature in connection with the incident. Bond was set at $75,000.

Previous Coverage:Trooper Fired for Shooting Unarmed Man | 5 Previous Complaints Against Trooper | Trooper Involved in Shooting Was Involved in '12 Incident

In the video, Jones can be seen getting out of his car when Groubert pulled up and asked for his license. Jones can be seen reaching into his car for his license, and as he does, Groubert begins yelling at Jones and fires several shots.

Jones was hit by one bullet in the hip. He is recovering at home after being hospitalized for the injury.

While shooting at Jones, Groubert can be heard yelling, "Get out of the car, get out of the car."

Jones replied,"I just got my license, you said get my license."

Groubert responded by telling Jones to get on the ground.

While on the ground Jones said, "I have my license right here, you said get my license."

In the video Groubert can be heard asking Jones if he was hit by a bullet and went on to say, "Bro, you dove head first back into your car."

After seeing the video in court, Groubert's attorney, former Fifth Circuit Solicitor Barney Geise, says that his client is not guilty and is looking forward to his day in court.

South Carolina Department of Public Safety Director Leroy Smith fired Groubert September 19th after observing the video and reviewing a report from the State Law Enforcement Division. In dismissing Groubert, Smith called the facts of the case "disturbing."

The charges filed Wednesday were brought by the Fifth Circuit Solicitor's office, which also reviewed SLED's findings. Groubert faces a maximum of 20 years in prison.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2014, 07:23:02 PM
Well it was, Timmay.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 04, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2014, 07:11:50 PM
If it was please ignore

Appreciate it, Tim.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
I hadn't seen it.  Officer seemed more then a little trigger happy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on December 04, 2014, 08:13:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 04, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
I hadn't seen it.  Officer seemed more then a little trigger happy.

Free Fire Zone USA.

Vietnam sensibilities meets modern 'force protection'.


American boat people next?   :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 04, 2014, 08:14:34 PM
Mongers: :yawn:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 04, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
I hadn't seen it.  Officer seemed more then a little trigger happy.

That's an understatement.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
I wonder what would've happened if the dash cam wasn't rolling?  Would the prosecutor go to the grand jury, or would he just go ahead and indict the black guy for assaulting the officer?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on December 04, 2014, 09:48:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
I wonder what would've happened if the dash cam wasn't rolling?  Would the prosecutor go to the grand jury, or would he just go ahead and indict the black guy for assaulting the officer?

The standard you need to judge it by is, what would have happened in the later days of the Soviet Union in the same situation; better or worse and you seem the ideal person to be able to make the comparison.  :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 04, 2014, 09:48:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 04, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
I wonder what would've happened if the dash cam wasn't rolling?  Would the prosecutor go to the grand jury, or would he just go ahead and indict the black guy for assaulting the officer?

The standard you need to judge it by is, what would have happened in the later days of the Soviet Union in the same situation; better or worse and you seem the ideal person to be able to make the comparison.  :)
As I said earlier, this situation would be very unlikely to happen in Soviet Union.  Soviet Union did not trust its cops with lethal force, so any use of lethal force required a mountain of paperwork to justify yourself.  Before you fire your gun.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on December 04, 2014, 10:00:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 04, 2014, 10:26:54 AM
It would have helped clarify the Michael Brown shooting much earlier.

Indeed.  It was amazing that department did not have cameras on the cars.  Hopefully this sad incident can at least secure that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 04, 2014, 11:10:33 PM
Just left work and it was/is grim faced cop-palooza. There aren't even any protesters there!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 05, 2014, 08:19:44 AM
Some 200 people arrested in NYC last night with more roads/bridges/tunnels being blocked. And looks look quite a few smaller protests across the nation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 05, 2014, 09:06:37 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/OccupyWallStNYC/status/540690787928113152

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on December 05, 2014, 04:50:20 PM
Ugh, the immediate reaction the Phoenix case just makes me not care at all that black people are being killed by police. I simply cannot accept such dishonest journalism. IN the past few articles I've read that:

1. The police officer "confronted" Rumain Brisbon who was out on a fast food run.

-No, he didn't. The police officer had been told that someone was selling drugs out of a black Cadillac, and had arrived at the McDonald's specifically to investigate that black Cadillac. It was not a random confrontation of a black man.

2. Largely fail to paint an appropriate picture of who Rumain Brisbon is. Namely they focus on how he was unarmed, and might mention as quickly as possible he is a convicted felon, and that "well he did have a gun in his car, but no harm there." Not one article has actually linked that all together: Robinson was committing a felony in his Cadillac by having that gun in it. He's a convicted felon he cannot have a gun. The fact that he had one in addition to illicit drugs in his car makes it quite likely he's a bad dude. And also likely that while he may have, in fact, bought some McDonald's, he also may have been there to sell drugs too.

3. Focuses on "cop confuses bill bottle for a gun." This is typically the headline. But the actual meat of the incident is, the cop pursued him and tried to subdue him. Why did he flee in the first place? Because he was a felon and had a gun in his car and marijuana, and I believe the oxycontin was illicit as well (meaning not prescribed to him.)  He ran to avoid arrest. When the cop caught him and tried to arrest him, he continued to struggle with the cop. The cop felt something hard in his clothing and feared it was the butt of a gun, and after repeatedly telling him to not pull his hand out of his pocket (as he thought he had his hand on a gun), the cop shoots him.

I don't get it, seriously. Are we now at a point where the first reaction to a convicted felon, illegally in possession of a gun and drugs who is resisting arrest and repeated commands to stop what they're doing should be immune from police action? The Supreme Court sets a pretty reasonable standard on when cops can shoot their guns, the "reasonable officer" standard. And it seems that the out of control media/race pimp population takes the view that only after a black man has either shot a cop or is actually shooting at cops is lethal force ever appropriate. Because you know, it's wrong to shoot someone who is just digging in their pocket for something after repeated refusals to stop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 05, 2014, 05:11:45 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 05, 2014, 04:50:20 PM
Ugh, the immediate reaction the Phoenix case just makes me not care at all that black people are being killed by police.

Well you have always been a drunken fool so, thanks for staying in character. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 05, 2014, 05:24:17 PM
Damn, Otto.



As a cop, don't you at some point have to question whether you're resorting to violence too hastily? It's a big responsibility, the sanction to use violence on another citizen. I think I'd be pretty careful with it if I were a cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on December 05, 2014, 06:55:27 PM
Sure, and I generally dislike police by the way, as people, but if you're wrestling with some guy and there is a reasonable belief that he may be about to do you great bodily harm and is ignoring repeated commands to stop struggling I think that's a reasonable use of deadly force.

I'm also a big proponent of holding police accountable for what happened prior to the moment of deadly force usage. In both the Eric Garner case and the Tamir Rice case I feel police could have responded differently to avoid those situations entirely.

In Ferguson, I think Wilson could have responded differently after being attacked and avoided having to shoot anyone. Namely, when a dude jumped at him through his window, he could have driven down the road, called for back up. He chose to continually escalate right back at Brown. But I don't generally condemn Wilson because I think his situation started off with him being very shocked at being attacked.

The Phoenix cop was there investigating a tip of a drug dealer, which he found, and then he pursued him when he fled. That's pretty standard COPS episode stuff, it only got deadly because when he caught up to him the guy kept fighting him and he felt a hard object he confused for a gun pushing against him, and he thought the guy was trying to pull it out.

Normally running from police and resisting arrest shouldn't get anyone killed, but when those things create a scenario in which a "reasonable officer" would fear for their lives, then I'm fine with the outcome being one dead suspect. In Phoenix I'm making a presumption the officer's story is materially true, it may of course, but lies. In Ferguson I'm inferring from the available public evidence I've bothered to read what I think most likely happened--Wilson tried to stop Brown with a verbal order, Brown and him traded words and Brown attacked him, then he pursued Brown after the fight left the car and in the moment of extreme duress he shot and killed Brown when he saw Brown turn back towards him. Brown may or may not have charged him at that point.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2014, 07:31:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 05, 2014, 05:24:17 PM
Damn, Otto.



As a cop, don't you at some point have to question whether you're resorting to violence too hastily? It's a big responsibility, the sanction to use violence on another citizen. I think I'd be pretty careful with it if I were a cop.


I dunno, I made more than my share of arrests over the course of 2 1/2 years.  Did a lot of running, a lot of chasing, and a lot of brawling.  Wound up in the ER more than once, because that's part of the deal.  Replaced a lot of uniform shirts and pants.  Had my light bar shot out from a stray shot.  But I never had to kill anybody to get the handcuffs on.   I guess my training was from a different generation, where you didn't unholster your weapon unless you had a specific reason.   

I really don't know what's going on now in today's police department academies, except they're hiring too many combat veterans that are treating Staten Island like Ramadi.  And soldiers do not make good police officers.  You're not fighting a low-intensity insurgency waiting for the next IED or sniper, regardless of what the crackers so afraid of black people may think.

Quote from: Otto von Cracker
Sure, and I generally dislike police by the way, as people, but if you're wrestling with some guy and there is a reasonable belief that he may be about to do you great bodily harm and is ignoring repeated commands to stop struggling I think that's a reasonable use of deadly force.

You use the force necessary to effect the arrest, which is not deadly force.  You know that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on December 05, 2014, 07:48:51 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 05, 2014, 05:24:17 PM
Damn, Otto.



As a cop, don't you at some point have to question whether you're resorting to violence too hastily? It's a big responsibility, the sanction to use violence on another citizen. I think I'd be pretty careful with it if I were a cop.

And join Oath Keepers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Queequeg on December 05, 2014, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1
Pryzbylewski was a great officer and a wonderful teacher.   :cry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on December 05, 2014, 09:12:55 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 05, 2014, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1
Pryzbylewski was a great officer and a wonderful teacher.   :cry:
He definitely had his uses, but he tended to get out of his depth on the streets.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 06, 2014, 12:26:58 AM
Some of the NYC protesters have now made a list of demands.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 06, 2014, 02:04:30 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2014, 02:10:51 AM
Cleveland PD will pay out for that idiot.  Negligent hiring.

Don't know why he wasn't flushed out.  I've seen candidates bounced for less than that.  And if there's anybody that has any more pull than an academy chief, it's the firearms instructor.  If he says somebody has to go, he has to go.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 06, 2014, 02:32:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 06, 2014, 02:04:30 AM
His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.
At which point he decided he wanted 'more action' and got a transfer to Cleveland :blink:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 06, 2014, 02:37:24 AM
Well, he didn't exactly get transferred; he "voluntarily" resigned from the IPD and then later applied for a job in Cleveland.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on December 06, 2014, 06:51:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 06, 2014, 02:04:30 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.

He wouldn't last 5 mins in the nuclear industry.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 06, 2014, 02:32:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 06, 2014, 02:04:30 AM
His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.
At which point he decided he wanted 'more action' and got a transfer to Cleveland :blink:

Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 06, 2014, 09:21:02 AM
I wouldn't call incompetence in Cleavland shocking, but some of the stuff listed here is ridiculous.

Large excerpts detailing individual incidents can be found embedded here.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/04/cleveland-police-doj_n_6270220.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013
QuoteFeds Find Shocking, Systemic Brutality, Incompetence In Cleveland Police Department

Posted: 12/04/2014 1:42 pm EST Updated: 12/05/2014 12:59 am EST

WASHINGTON -- In recent years, Cleveland police officers have punched a 13-year-old boy who was in handcuffs for shoplifting and shot at an unarmed kidnapping victim who was wearing only his underwear, according to disturbing allegations released Thursday by the Justice Department. The agency's investigation found that officers in Cleveland routinely use unjustifiable force against not only criminals and suspects, but also innocent victims of crimes.

The so-called "pattern or practice" report from the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division was released Thursday afternoon as DOJ and the city announced plans to develop a court-enforceable agreement that would impose an independent monitor on the Cleveland Division of Police.

"Accountability and legitimacy are essential for communities to trust their police departments, and for there to be genuine collaboration between police and the citizens they serve," said Attorney General Eric Holder in a press conference on Thursday.

Holder announced the measure during his trip to Cleveland, where police officers fatally shot an unarmed black child last month. In Cleveland, Holder has attended a series of meetings about rebuilding community trust between law enforcement and the public, even as protests erupted nationwide over the non-indictment of police officers who killed Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric Garner in New York City. Following his visit to Cleveland, Holder intends to visit Chicago and Philadelphia, as well as Memphis, Tennessee, and Oakland, California, for additional roundtable meetings.

In his remarks Thursday, Holder said that he and President Barack Obama believe there is more to be done on the issue of use of lethal force by police departments.

The Justice Department began investigating the use of force in Cleveland's police division in March 2013. A few months prior, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson had requested that the agency look into the issue. Jackson's request came after a high-profile police chase in November 2012 that resulted in Cleveland police dispatching at least 62 vehicles, firing 137 bullets and killing two unarmed black suspects, who each sustained more than 20 gunshot wounds.

There have been numerous other occasions when Cleveland police are alleged to have used excessive force. Most recently, on Nov. 22, a Cleveland police officer fatally shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice, who was playing with a toy gun in a park. Footage of the incident shows the officer firing his gun within two seconds of pulling up to the boy in his car. The Guardian reported on Thursday that Timothy Loehmann, the officer who shot Tamir, was judged unfit for police work in 2012 by his then-employer, the police department of Independence, Ohio. An Independence official described Loehmann's "dismal" handgun performance in an internal memo.

According to the DOJ report, Cleveland police officers "carelessly fire their weapons, placing themselves, subjects, and bystanders at unwarranted risk of serious injury or death." For example, the agency pointed to an incident in 2011 where officers "fired 24 rounds in a residential neighborhoods," with six rounds striking houses and 14 hitting parked cars. In another case, "an officer's decision to draw his gun while trying to apprehend an unarmed hit-and-run suspect resulted in him accidentally shooting the man in the neck."


The Justice Department also claimed to have identified "several cases" where "officers shot or shot at people who did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to officers or others." For example, in 2013, the report noted that police shot at a kidnapping victim after he fled from his assailants wearing only his boxers. The sergeant said he believed the victim had a weapon because he raised his hand.


In another case detailed by the Justice Department, a 300-pound officer punched a 13-year-old boy who was handcuffed inside a police car and kicking the door. The officer, whom the report describes as 8 inches taller than the boy, punched him "three to four times" until he was "'stunned/dazed' and had a bloody nose."

The agency noted that "supervisors' analyses of use of force incidents is superficial at best and, at its worst, appears to be designed to justify their subordinates' unreasonable use of force." For example, in the case of the teenage boy, the agency said the officer's supervisor "failed to even consider that the punches might have been retaliatory (perhaps because the officer was angry) and unnecessary to secure the boy."

The DOJ report stated that "each and every time we saw officers write that they had tased a handcuffed suspect, the use of force was approved up the chain of command." In one case, an officer wrote that he gave a man an electrical shock to prevent him from falling after he fled in handcuffs -- even though, as the report noted, "suspects normally fall after being tased." It went on to say that "justifying the use of a Taser to stop a [fleeing], handcuffed person from falling is simply not credible."

The report cited another case in which officers shocked a handcuffed suspect, prompting him to "fall face-first onto asphalt, shattering four front teeth and causing facial contusions."

A Cleveland police officer also administered an electric shock to a man who was deaf and suicidal, according to the DOJ report. The man had committed no crime and may not have understood instructions.


The report also said that the culture of the Cleveland police force promotes an "us-against-them" mentality. It cited the example of a sign in one district station that identifies the station as a "forward operating base" -- which DOJ noted is a military term for a small outpost in a war zone.


The report concluded that the police department's "method of policing contributes to the community's distrust of and lack of respect for officers."

The report also noted that while it did not make a finding regarding racial profiling, "many African-Americans reported that they believe [Cleveland police] officers are verbally and physically aggressive toward them because of their race."

Ironically, last week, a number of white and Hispanic officers who were disciplined for the Nov. 2012 shooting filed a lawsuit, alleging that they were punished especially harshly because the shooting victims were black and they, the officers, were not.

Read the full DOJ report here.

CORRECTION: This article has been edited to make clear that an incident cited by the report in which a handcuffed suspect broke four teeth after being shocked is not the same incident in which police used a Taser to shock a fleeing, handcuffed man
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on December 06, 2014, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2014, 07:31:11 PMI dunno, I made more than my share of arrests over the course of 2 1/2 years.  Did a lot of running, a lot of chasing, and a lot of brawling.  Wound up in the ER more than once, because that's part of the deal.  Replaced a lot of uniform shirts and pants.  Had my light bar shot out from a stray shot.  But I never had to kill anybody to get the handcuffs on.   I guess my training was from a different generation, where you didn't unholster your weapon unless you had a specific reason.   

I really don't know what's going on now in today's police department academies, except they're hiring too many combat veterans that are treating Staten Island like Ramadi.  And soldiers do not make good police officers.  You're not fighting a low-intensity insurgency waiting for the next IED or sniper, regardless of what the crackers so afraid of black people may think.

I agree on combat veterans. I have a friend who is getting ready to hit his 20 in the chair force that isn't a combat veteran (closest he's come is a base in Saudi) and has been an MP almost the entire time. FWIW we actually talked about the Ferguson situation the other day over some whiskey and his opinion was that "Wilson was probably in the clear, but also a giant pussy." His opinion was that his job as a cop is to win fist fights, not lose them--and that he likes using a stick if someone won't go down.

I wonder to some degree in municipal police departments if all the videos of cops beating people with batons and TASERing them has lead to fear of using these tools or appropriately training in their use. My friend the MP probably doesn't have to worry about citizen video bloggers recording him doing a hard take down on some drunk shit head and maybe using a baton on his arm or something.

QuoteYou use the force necessary to effect the arrest, which is not deadly force.  You know that.

All I'm saying hombre, is that if the dude had him tackled and legit thought he could feel him trying to work a gun out of his pants, at that point I'm okay with him going to lethal force. If that was his genuine belief and it's reasonably possible a pill bottle could feel like a gun. I don't know what a pill bottle would feel like under some dude's clothes I'm pinning to the ground, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2014, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 06, 2014, 11:18:31 AM
I agree on combat veterans. I have a friend who is getting ready to hit his 20 in the chair force that isn't a combat veteran (closest he's come is a base in Saudi) and has been an MP almost the entire time. FWIW we actually talked about the Ferguson situation the other day over some whiskey and his opinion was that "Wilson was probably in the clear, but also a giant pussy." His opinion was that his job as a cop is to win fist fights, not lose them--and that he likes using a stick if someone won't go down.

I wonder to some degree in municipal police departments if all the videos of cops beating people with batons and TASERing them has lead to fear of using these tools or appropriately training in their use. My friend the MP probably doesn't have to worry about citizen video bloggers recording him doing a hard take down on some drunk shit head and maybe using a baton on his arm or something.

I think it's become part and parcel with a degradation of the prioritizing the continuum of force combined with additional "tools" like tasers getting involved, recruiting and training. 

My Dad's generation, you had the baton and the revolver, and you dragged the perp's ass all the way back to the call box any way you could.  My generation, pepper spray was tossed in so you didn't have to thump or shoot little old ladies with kitchen knives.  Today, you've got Tasers added as well.  Combine that with a fear of legal issues, the drop in in-service training for defensive tactics ("you've got training scheduled on CDS identification instead!"), and tossing in a bunch of Iraqi and Afghani war veterans used to combat adrenaline, you see a shitload of cops that are simply not putting their hands on people, and when they do, they're doing it wrong.    Like compression of the windpipe. 

QuoteAll I'm saying hombre, is that if the dude had him tackled and legit thought he could feel him trying to work a gun out of his pants, at that point I'm okay with him going to lethal force. If that was his genuine belief and it's reasonably possible a pill bottle could feel like a gun. I don't know what a pill bottle would feel like under some dude's clothes I'm pinning to the ground, though.

Had an old sergeant, one left over from the '60s that had the kind of flat top haircut you could set your watch to, he always said if you're going to shoot somebody, you 1) never do it in the back, and 2) there damned well better be a knife or a gun.  You shot him because you thought he had a gun?  Did you see a gun?  Was a gun recovered at the scene?  No?  Then, if you didn't get fired, you knew it was your ass on a desk for the next couple years, doing staff review or evidence control, or heaven forbid, juveniles.  "Yeah, that's Brown.  He fucked up with that bank thing on Howard Street last year, remember?"  Nowadays, it's all lessons not learned and accountability not answered.  But cities keep paying out the nose for lawsuits, and putting the same cops back into circulation. 

And I don't buy the argument that the "bad guys" are more armed, or better armed, now than they were 20 or 40 years ago as an excuse for ignoring the continuum of force and maintaining firearms discipline.  Shit's always been dangerous, and study after study on line of duty deaths have shown that cops that die (when not involved in motor vehicle accidents) in most cases do so because they fucked up with judgement in a tactical situation.   But that's not an excuse to toss training and procedure out the window and go straight to the Glock in every case, because then you have nowhere else to go but one direction.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 06, 2014, 02:29:33 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/police-cases-stir-national-protests-debate-072514910.html

QuotePolice: Chokehold victim complicit in own death

Eric Garner was overweight and in poor health. He was a nuisance to shop owners who complained about him selling untaxed cigarettes on the street. When police came to arrest him, he resisted. And if he could repeatedly say, "I can't breathe," it means he could breathe.

Rank-and-file New York City police officers and their supporters have been making such arguments even before a grand jury decided against charges in Garner's death, saying the possibility that he contributed to his own demise has been drowned out in the furor over race and law enforcement.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 06, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM


Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.

Man, if was a cop, (and it was something I seriously looked into), I sure as hell wouldn't want to be looking for action.  I would much rather be a glorified CSO and crossing guard.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2014, 02:29:33 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/police-cases-stir-national-protests-debate-072514910.html

QuotePolice: Chokehold victim complicit in own death

Eric Garner was overweight and in poor health. He was a nuisance to shop owners who complained about him selling untaxed cigarettes on the street. When police came to arrest him, he resisted. And if he could repeatedly say, "I can't breathe," it means he could breathe.

Rank-and-file New York City police officers and their supporters have been making such arguments even before a grand jury decided against charges in Garner's death, saying the possibility that he contributed to his own demise has been drowned out in the furor over race and law enforcement.

Of course.  Black people used to hang themselves.  Now they just choke themselves.  Amazing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM


Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.

Man, if was a cop, (and it was something I seriously looked into), I sure as hell wouldn't want to be looking for action.  I would much rather be a glorified CSO and crossing guard.

Damn right. 60K-80K sitting in a car doing nothing? Sounds like my kind of job.

I wouldn't want the School Resource officer bullshit however.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on December 06, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM


Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.

Man, if was a cop, (and it was something I seriously looked into), I sure as hell wouldn't want to be looking for action.  I would much rather be a glorified CSO and crossing guard.

Damn right. 60K-80K sitting in a car doing nothing? Sounds like my kind of job.

I wouldn't want the School Resource officer bullshit however.
You mean hinding behind a bush waiting for a speeder. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 06, 2014, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM


Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.

Man, if was a cop, (and it was something I seriously looked into), I sure as hell wouldn't want to be looking for action.  I would much rather be a glorified CSO and crossing guard.

Damn right. 60K-80K sitting in a car doing nothing? Sounds like my kind of job.

I wouldn't want the School Resource officer bullshit however.

The guy who was a School Resource officer when I was a school was elected Sheriff.  He still holds that position.  So it seems like a good way to advance your career.  The domestic disturbance calls is what turned me off.  You see some ugly shit, and it's like someone tearing your heart out.  I don't know how they deal with it.  Maybe it requires being an unfeeling prick, maybe it turns good people into cynical bastards like seedy, I don't know. Seeing a father being pulled away from the kids and wife he just beat and have them crying, threatening and begging for him to be released is extremely unpleasant.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 06:16:44 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on December 06, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM


Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.

Man, if was a cop, (and it was something I seriously looked into), I sure as hell wouldn't want to be looking for action.  I would much rather be a glorified CSO and crossing guard.

Damn right. 60K-80K sitting in a car doing nothing? Sounds like my kind of job.

I wouldn't want the School Resource officer bullshit however.
You mean hinding behind a bush waiting for a speeder.

I mean sitting in the Target parking lot reading the Internet and looking at the jailbait.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 06, 2014, 10:13:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2014, 12:24:35 PM
And I don't buy the argument that the "bad guys" are more armed, or better armed, now than they were 20 or 40 years ago as an excuse for ignoring the continuum of force and maintaining firearms discipline.  Shit's always been dangerous, and study after study on line of duty deaths have shown that cops that die (when not involved in motor vehicle accidents) in most cases do so because they fucked up with judgement in a tactical situation.   But that's not an excuse to toss training and procedure out the window and go straight to the Glock in every case, because then you have nowhere else to go but one direction.
Yeah. I could be wrong but I'd have to guess that things were more dangerous back during the crack epidemic and, of course, crime in general's down massively from where it was 40 years ago.

Who are police forces accountable to in the US? Local Mayor, Governor?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2014, 10:25:40 PM
Whichever government they work for, whether it's the city, county, or state.  But yeah, sometimes it's a mayor, sometimes it's a city council, sometimes it's the city manager, etc.

There's been a progressive theme in recent years that shitty little police departments for shitty little municipalities (like Ferguson and Independence) should get rolled up together into larger agencies.  But that will never, ever happen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 06, 2014, 10:27:15 PM
It has happened a bit. There was that story about the St. Louis County city that disbanded itself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2014, 10:28:54 PM
Meh, that's the exception to the rule, though.  Everybody is going to want to keep their little fiefdoms, and their funding.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 07, 2014, 03:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 24, 2014, 03:06:56 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/22/nyregion/new-york-police-officer-fatally-shoots-brooklyn-man.html

QuoteOfficer's Errant Shot Kills Unarmed Brooklyn Man

[...]

Honest accident that could happen to everyone, or a rookie who fucked up?



Today in "Cops who make the force look bad":

http://www.ibtimes.com/nypd-officer-texted-union-rep-instead-calling-paramedics-moments-after-shooting-akai-1738228

QuoteNYPD Officer Texted Union Rep Instead Of Calling For Paramedics Moments After Shooting Akai Gurley: New York Daily News

Moments after a rookie New York Police Department officer accidentally shot 28-year-old Akai Gurley in a Brooklyn stairwell last month, he texted his union representative instead of calling paramedics, unidentified sources exclusively told the New York Daily News.

Officer Peter Liang and partner Shaun Landau did not communicate with their commanding officer for more than six and a half minutes after the shooting, the Daily News reported. The commanding officer and a 911 operator -- who was made aware of the shooting by a neighbor in the building -- attempted to contact the pair, but they did not respond.

"That's showing negligence," a law-enforcement source told the News. "The guy is dying, and you still haven't called it in?"

When the officers returned to their radios, they reported an accidental discharge, a source said. According to police, the officers did not immediately know the bullet struck Gurley.

Liang, who has been on the force for less than 18 months, was on a violence-reduction overtime detail that had him and his partner Landau conducting floor-by-floor sweeps of buildings.

On Nov. 20 at about 11 p.m. EST, the officers were at the Louis H. Pink Houses in East New York in Brooklyn, WNBC-TV reported. Several major crimes had been reported at the housing project this year. The officers had finished checking the eighth floor, the top floor of the building, when they noticed the stairwell leading to the roof was dimly lit. For safety reasons, they took out their flashlights. Liang also drew his weapon, while Landau kept his holstered.

When Gurley, who was unarmed, appeared on the seventh-floor landing, he startled the officers -- and Liang accidentally discharged his weapon. The bullet hit a wall and ricocheted into Gurley's chest. He was pronounced dead at a hospital.

Police Commissioner Bill Bratton has called the shooting "an unfortunate tragedy" and Gurley a "total innocent."

Kings County (Brooklyn) District Attorney Ken Thompson has launched an investigation into the shooting, saying he would convene a grand jury "to get to the bottom of what happened," WNBC-TV reported. "Many questions must be answered, including whether, as reported, the lights in the hallway were out for a number of days, and how this tragedy actually occurred," Thompson said in a statement shortly after the event.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 07, 2014, 10:02:30 AM
What an idiot.  You have a situation where only your partner is a witness, and all you have to do when shooting an innocent guy who was no doubt reaching for his gun is not shoot the wall first, and he failed at that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on December 07, 2014, 10:21:18 AM
Public sector unions. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on December 07, 2014, 10:25:59 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 07, 2014, 10:02:30 AM
What an idiot.  You have a situation where only your partner is a witness, and all you have to do when shooting an innocent guy who was no doubt reaching for his gun is not shoot the wall first, and he failed at that.

That case is interesting because the cop actually fired down a blackened hallway so he really had no idea what he was shooting at. His story is he had his gun drawn and accidentally pulled the trigger. I think whatever actually happened that cop is a fuck up, 10 year olds know you don't fire at something if you don't know what it is. And if he really did accidentally discharge that should be an insta-firing / negligent homicide charges.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 07, 2014, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 06, 2014, 10:27:15 PM
It has happened a bit. There was that story about the St. Louis County city that disbanded itself.

Yeah, it happens when the funding runs out.  Or sometimes people.  Kinloch was were the affluent blacks used to live.  Now nobody lives there.  Half of Bridgton is gone, eaten by the airport.  And of course, nobody goes to East St. Louis.  It's like Mordor.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2014, 10:37:46 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 07, 2014, 10:25:59 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 07, 2014, 10:02:30 AM
What an idiot.  You have a situation where only your partner is a witness, and all you have to do when shooting an innocent guy who was no doubt reaching for his gun is not shoot the wall first, and he failed at that.

That case is interesting because the cop actually fired down a blackened hallway so he really had no idea what he was shooting at. His story is he had his gun drawn and accidentally pulled the trigger. I think whatever actually happened that cop is a fuck up, 10 year olds know you don't fire at something if you don't know what it is. And if he really did accidentally discharge that should be an insta-firing / negligent homicide charges.

At 18 months you'd think he'd still be on probation and not even vested long enough to be in the union, so calling a rep wouldn't matter and he would be fired immediately. 
Even on overtime, he should've been with a field training officer who would've shoved his firearm up his ass when he unholstered it.  But hey, black people are scary.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 07, 2014, 10:54:17 AM
How likely is it that an accidental discharge could happen without having the finger on the trigger, anyways?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on December 07, 2014, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 07, 2014, 10:54:17 AM
How likely is it that an accidental discharge could happen without having the finger on the trigger, anyways?

I think his story is he had his finger on the trigger, when he was startled he pulled it. Basically him and his partner were doing a patrol through a public housing building (one notorious for criminality, thus why NYPD is patroling it regularly), and in a darkened stairwell he drew out his flash light and I guess because he was scared a crazed black person could jump out of the shadow he had his gun drawn in his other hand. So imagine him just walking around the building with the flash light in one hand and his gun in the other.

It's real Keystone Cops shit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 07, 2014, 11:15:45 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/berkeley-garner-protests-turn-violent-131754146.html

QuoteProtests over Garner's death turn violent in Berkeley

Peaceful protests over the chokehold death of Eric Garner took a violent turn in Berkeley, Calif., on Saturday, when several masked protesters smashed store windows and hurled objects at police officers who used smoke and teargas to disperse the crowd.

According to Berkeley police spokeswoman Jenn Coats, two officers were injured during the protests, including one who was hospitalized with a dislocated shoulder after being hit with a sandbag. There were at least six arrests during the demonstration, which drew approximately 1,000 people to the streets of the San Francisco suburb.

Police in riot gear used batons to push back protesters during several confrontations. One protester was seen smashing the window of a store with a skateboard; another was seen in aerial footage being dragged to the ground by several officers in a scene reminiscent of Garner's arrest. After police threw a smoke bomb to thwart one group of demonstrators, a protester picked it up and lobbed it back.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen_us%2FNews%2Fgettyimages.com%2Fdemonstrations-over-recent-grand-jury-20141207-074642-317.jpg&hash=9cb2a9bfb436531eb4961177d825ba2d44be657f)

There were protests in cities around the country for the fourth consecutive day since the grand jury's decision not to indict the white New York city police officer, Daniel Pantaleo, in the July chokehold death of the unarmed Garner during a confrontation in Staten Island that was captured on video.

In Seattle, seven people were arrested while trying to block a roadway in downtown Seattle, where more than 600 people participated in a march and demonstration in front of police headquarters.

According to the Seattle Times, a group of protesters who broke off from the main group began throwing rocks at officers, police said.

Peaceful protests were held in other cities, including Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami and Las Vegas.

In New York, the demonstrations were considerably smaller on Saturday night than the previous three, due in part to heavy rains.

More protests were planned for Sunday.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on December 07, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 07, 2014, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 07, 2014, 10:54:17 AM
How likely is it that an accidental discharge could happen without having the finger on the trigger, anyways?

I think his story is he had his finger on the trigger, when he was startled he pulled it. Basically him and his partner were doing a patrol through a public housing building (one notorious for criminality, thus why NYPD is patroling it regularly), and in a darkened stairwell he drew out his flash light and I guess because he was scared a crazed black person could jump out of the shadow he had his gun drawn in his other hand. So imagine him just walking around the building with the flash light in one hand and his gun in the other.

It's real Keystone Cops shit.

I'm asking because I was taught to not put the finger on the trigger unless I was just about to shoot at a target.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2014, 11:18:25 AM
LOL, back in the '60s riots down at College Park, they'd fire off tear gas canisters in the crowds and the students would use lacrosse sticks to whip them back.  CRADLE CRADLE PASS
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Neil on December 07, 2014, 01:32:37 PM
Hopefully they burn Berkeley down, and then they all get executed.  Those aren't protesters, those are just the usual troublemakers looking for an excuse to do some damage.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 07, 2014, 06:11:02 PM
I felt bad for the Trader Joe's that got looted.

THINK OF THE FANCY CHEESES
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 07, 2014, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 07, 2014, 06:11:02 PM
I felt bad for the Trader Joe's that got looted.

THINK OF THE FANCY CHEESES

Think of all that cheap, tasty food!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 07, 2014, 06:23:35 PM
I bet every foodie within 5 miles grabbed a locally sourced brick and headed on in there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 07, 2014, 06:28:22 PM
I have to admit that I'm a little surprised to hear about "rioting" in Berkeley. Sounds much more like what you would expect out of [coded racism]Oakland[/coded racism]. -_-
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on December 07, 2014, 07:37:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 07, 2014, 11:18:16 AMI'm asking because I was taught to not put the finger on the trigger unless I was just about to shoot at a target.

Yeah essentially no entity I'm aware of that trains people in shooting teaches you to put your trigger on the finger just for walkin' round. Dude is an idiot/fuck up cop, likely soon to be an ex-cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 07, 2014, 08:01:43 PM
Anti-Asian bias.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 08, 2014, 03:22:13 PM
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/12/08/new-video-shows-michael-browns-stepfather-saying-im-going-to-start-a-riot/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 08, 2014, 03:27:04 PM
My God, they are almost as bad as the Palins.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2014, 03:29:30 PM
Bristol and Track getting gunned down by the police?  Now that's a grand jury I'd sit on.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 08, 2014, 04:52:18 PM
Classy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 08, 2014, 06:55:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 08, 2014, 04:52:18 PM
Classy.

Hey, you were the one to bring this up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 08, 2014, 08:48:34 PM
Bring what up?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 08, 2014, 11:10:11 PM
I thought this piece from the Economist was interesting:
QuoteLessons from Camden
Dec 4th 2014, 18:35 BY R.W. | CAMDEN, NJ
Timekeeper

"I CAN'T breathe!" chanted hundreds of people throughout New York and around the country yesterday. The peaceful protests were in response to a grand jury decision not to indict Daniel Pantaleo, a Staten Island police officer, for killing Eric Garner after placing him in a chokehold in July. The chant is a reference to Garner's final words before he died. The chokehold—recorded on the mobile phones of bystanders—is a manoeuvre that is banned by New York police. For many protesters, Garner's death and Mr Pantaleo's freedom simply reinforce the view that America's criminal justice system is racially biased.

The timing of the verdict, less than two weeks after a grand jury decided not to indict a white police officer for killing an unarmed black man in Ferguson, Missouri, only burnishes this belief. Eric Holder, the attorney-general, has promised that the Department of Justice will investigate the Garner case. Earlier this week, he announced that the DoJ will soon offer new guidelines to law enforcement "to help end racial profiling, once and for all." He delivered his speech from Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, where Martin Luther King Junior famously preached.

As the administration casts about for ways to build trust between police departments and the public, they would do well to look at what is happening in Camden, New Jersey, a poor city that once had the reputation for being America's most dangerous. Camden disbanded its police department about 18 months ago, installing a new county unit in its place. Crime has since fallen considerably. Murders dropped by 49% to 31 between 2012 and 2014 (January 1st through November 30th). Shootings have been halved, robberies and rape are down by a third, and other violent crimes are down by a fifth. In a population of around 77,000, 35 fewer mothers are now burying their sons each year.

What is Camden's police force doing right? At the most basic level, the city has returned to old-style policing. Instead of using squad cars, officers now patrol their beats on their feet in pairs (or on bicycles). They knock on doors and introduce themselves, and learn the names of people in a neighbourhood. "Nothing builds trust like human contact," says Scott Thomson, Camden's police chief. Locals can be a great source of information about where the problems are, he adds, "but that's not going to happen without trust."'

The culture within the police department has also changed. "Two years ago, if you had 12 officers show up for work on a Friday night, you'd be lucky," recalls Louis Cappelli, head of the county's governing board. "That's no exaggeration." It used to take around an hour for police to respond to a call for help; now it takes less than five minutes. Officers are also trained to understand they are guardians, not warriors. "They are far more like a social worker than they are a crime fighter," says Mr Thomson. The department is also now working closely with other departments in the region, as few crimes are purely local. When drug dealers used to prowl Camden's streets, nearly 80% of the buyers came from the surrounding suburbs.

Around Camden, the effects of this approach can be felt right away. During a visit a few years ago, a community organiser warned me that I probably wouldn't be safe even if I drove around town.  At the time the city had 175 open drug markets. But now, with bullets no longer whizzing by, children can be seen walking to school and playing in parks once dominated by drug sellers and addicts. Adults walk to the shops without fear. "Residents were desperate for police protection," said Mr Cappelli. Would-be criminals think twice about carrying weapons as they are more likely to run into an officer. The McDonald's across the street from police headquarters is now once again a place to buy burgers, not crack. Camden's waterfront is safer than Harvard Square, boasts Mr Thomson.

Arrests have gone up, mostly for quality-of-life infractions. But officials insist their main tack for preventing crime is through building community relationships. Officers are not only more visible on the streets, but also more engaged with their neighbourhoods. They play sports with residents and organise crowd-pleasing events like a Thanksgiving turkey give-away. The police department had already invested in some new technologies, such as gunshot detectors and surveillance cameras in particularly high-crime areas. Some officers are also experimenting with wearing body cameras while on duty. But the city has found that these tools only work if there are boots on the streets too. 

Crime is down in Camden, but there is still much to do. Poverty remains pervasive: the city has the poorest ten square miles in the country. Barely half of all students finish high school. Still, there is much to cheer. Camden's safer streets are already luring new investments. Philadelphia's 76ers, a professional basketball team, is moving its training facilities and front-office operations across the river to Camden. Plans for new shops and restaurants are in the works for the surrounding area. Things are certainly looking up for Camden. Ferguson should be so lucky.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2014, 11:13:35 PM
When I say it, people look at me funny.  Guess I should do it with an English accent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 08, 2014, 11:14:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 08, 2014, 08:48:34 PM
Bring what up?

Classy families.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 08, 2014, 11:52:25 PM
I would have liked them to run this skit, minus, of course, as everyone is saying - the James Franco bits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVzCih9RnWg
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 09, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2014, 11:13:35 PM
When I say it, people look at me funny.  Guess I should do it with an English accent.

Your point about hiring combat soldiers as a badge is an excellent one though. A cop and a trained killer are very different jobs.

Camden's thing is brilliant as well. It really is a problem of trust. Ferguson has riots because they don't trust their cops. That's at the core. I don't know how much of it is racism but that part is clear. The cops-as-friends thing needs to come back.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on December 09, 2014, 12:08:01 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 09, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Camden's thing is brilliant as well. It really is a problem of trust. Ferguson has riots because they don't trust their cops. That's at the core. I don't know how much of it is racism but that part is clear. The cops-as-friends thing needs to come back.
I suppose in terms of the racism, have African-American communities ever had the 'cops-as-friends thing'?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 09, 2014, 12:11:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2014, 12:08:01 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 09, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Camden's thing is brilliant as well. It really is a problem of trust. Ferguson has riots because they don't trust their cops. That's at the core. I don't know how much of it is racism but that part is clear. The cops-as-friends thing needs to come back.
I suppose in terms of the racism, have African-American communities ever had the 'cops-as-friends thing'?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcbsnews1.cbsistatic.com%2Fhub%2Fi%2Fr%2F2013%2F05%2F02%2Fed7d9dc3-c3f8-11e2-a43e-02911869d855%2Fthumbnail%2F620x350%2Ffc3be6819b7977c5514c611475acea80%2FBirmingham.jpg&hash=1ea7cb6b4bf0be82866bce44898a28c00ed02341)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 09, 2014, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2014, 12:08:01 AM
I suppose in terms of the racism, have African-American communities ever had the 'cops-as-friends thing'?

I don't know but now the rest of society has lost it too.  :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 09, 2014, 12:30:48 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2014, 12:08:01 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 09, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Camden's thing is brilliant as well. It really is a problem of trust. Ferguson has riots because they don't trust their cops. That's at the core. I don't know how much of it is racism but that part is clear. The cops-as-friends thing needs to come back.
I suppose in terms of the racism, have African-American communities ever had the 'cops-as-friends thing'?

Collectively, no.  Individually, yeah.  A good beat cop knows his neighborhood, the people in it, who's doing what where and when, and they know him.  But it's a lost art now, which is why I have always said kick the cops out of the squad cars and onto the beat.  You can't know your neighborhood from behind a mobile data terminal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 09, 2014, 01:30:36 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 09, 2014, 12:11:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 09, 2014, 12:08:01 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 09, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Camden's thing is brilliant as well. It really is a problem of trust. Ferguson has riots because they don't trust their cops. That's at the core. I don't know how much of it is racism but that part is clear. The cops-as-friends thing needs to come back.
I suppose in terms of the racism, have African-American communities ever had the 'cops-as-friends thing'?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcbsnews1.cbsistatic.com%2Fhub%2Fi%2Fr%2F2013%2F05%2F02%2Fed7d9dc3-c3f8-11e2-a43e-02911869d855%2Fthumbnail%2F620x350%2Ffc3be6819b7977c5514c611475acea80%2FBirmingham.jpg&hash=1ea7cb6b4bf0be82866bce44898a28c00ed02341)
How cute, they used to let civilians play with their pets.  :) Those were the days.  :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2014, 11:13:35 PM
When I say it, people look at me funny.  Guess I should do it with an English accent.

"Community Policing" is pretty much the center square on my Seedy Bingo card.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on December 09, 2014, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 10:06:35 AM
"Community Policing" is pretty much the center square on my Seedy Bingo card.

Do you think he's wrong?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: frunk on December 09, 2014, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 10:06:35 AM
"Community Policing" is pretty much the center square on my Seedy Bingo card.

Do you think he's wrong?

No.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 09, 2014, 10:16:09 AM
MIDNIGHT BASKETBALL
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 10:26:53 AM
I'm about as baffled as anyone by the NYPD chokehold thing, and I don't have a problem with the sentiment even if it violates NBA rules.  But... comic sans??

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-jpg.si.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fsi_article_main%2Fpublic%2F2014%2F12%2F08%2Flebron-james-i-cant-breathe-eric-garner.jpg&hash=268d0b9e98e61dc74efcd94bf6d1e875248890d7)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 09, 2014, 10:28:24 AM
COMIC SANS IS A LEGITIMATE FONT, CRACKER.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on December 09, 2014, 10:35:51 AM
Shrillax.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 09, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2014, 11:13:35 PM
When I say it, people look at me funny.  Guess I should do it with an English accent.

"Community Policing" is pretty much the center square on my Seedy Bingo card.

I prefer "peace officer" over "police officer", and think everybody should go back to the corners twirling their espantoons and carrying revolvers.  Big fucking .357 revolvers, but still.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on December 09, 2014, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2014, 11:13:35 PM
When I say it, people look at me funny.  Guess I should do it with an English accent.

Hey Seedy, what think you of this?

http://tpsnews.ca/stories/2014/07/fair-policing-not-black-and-white/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on December 09, 2014, 11:03:04 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 09, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
I prefer "peace officer" over "police officer", and think everybody should go back to the corners twirling their espantoons and carrying revolvers.  Big fucking .357 revolvers, but still.

So, no Segways then? :unsure:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on December 09, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
The weird thing about the entire "I Can't Breathe" thing is that him saying "I Can't Breathe" pretty much destroys the claim that he was in a chokehold, doesn't it?

I mean, a chokehold is defined as cutting off the windpipe - if you can say "I can't breathe" then pretty much by definition you *can* breathe, since it takes air to form sounds. You might be having trouble breathing, but that cannot be because you are in a chokehold, but for some other reason (like asthma, compressed lungs, etc.)

What is the difference between a headlock and a chokehold, if in fact it isn't using the arm to restrict air?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on December 09, 2014, 11:43:59 AM
Modern people text, they don't talk.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 09, 2014, 11:55:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
The weird thing about the entire "I Can't Breathe" thing is that him saying "I Can't Breathe" pretty much destroys the claim that he was in a chokehold, doesn't it?

I mean, a chokehold is defined as cutting off the windpipe - if you can say "I can't breathe" then pretty much by definition you *can* breathe, since it takes air to form sounds. You might be having trouble breathing, but that cannot be because you are in a chokehold, but for some other reason (like asthma, compressed lungs, etc.)

What is the difference between a headlock and a chokehold, if in fact it isn't using the arm to restrict air?

I thought the scenario was that they used a chokehold, put him in restraint, and triggered some sort of health crisis - during which he said "I can't breathe" and during which they rendered no aid - that lead to his death. I.e. the situation wasn't that they directly choked him to death, but that they used a prohibited procedure that triggered breathing difficulties and continued to exert pressure on him until he died, rather than giving aid while he was clearly physically distressed.

Now, I haven't read any of the reports closely or anything like that, but that's my impression.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 09, 2014, 12:06:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
The weird thing about the entire "I Can't Breathe" thing is that him saying "I Can't Breathe" pretty much destroys the claim that he was in a chokehold, doesn't it?

I mean, a chokehold is defined as cutting off the windpipe - if you can say "I can't breathe" then pretty much by definition you *can* breathe, since it takes air to form sounds. You might be having trouble breathing, but that cannot be because you are in a chokehold, but for some other reason (like asthma, compressed lungs, etc.)

What is the difference between a headlock and a chokehold, if in fact it isn't using the arm to restrict air?

Being able to say, "I can't breathe" is simply proof that one can exhale enough air past the vocal cords to make sound.  Perhaps he should've said, "I cannot breathe as well as before, as I am taking in less air with each subsequent breath due to external pressure.  This is called asphyxiation."

I've seen how a corpse makes a creepy low moan when the abdomen is compressed at the morgue, as the air still trapped in the lungs leaves even hours after expiring.  But it doesn't mean it's breathing.  That would be even creepier.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on December 09, 2014, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
The weird thing about the entire "I Can't Breathe" thing is that him saying "I Can't Breathe" pretty much destroys the claim that he was in a chokehold, doesn't it?


I seems to me that "I can't breathe" can also be short form for "I am awfully sorry officer but your hold on me is severely impairing my ability to breathe such that I fear I will expire momentarily". 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 09, 2014, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
I mean, a chokehold is defined as cutting off the windpipe - if you can say "I can't breathe" then pretty much by definition you *can* breathe, since it takes air to form sounds.
Is it really defined like that?  It's a very common beginner mistake to think that choking someone means compressing their windpipe.  That's a very painful and inefficient way to choke someone.  Compressing the blood vessels is how it should be done.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on December 10, 2014, 02:42:04 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 09, 2014, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
The weird thing about the entire "I Can't Breathe" thing is that him saying "I Can't Breathe" pretty much destroys the claim that he was in a chokehold, doesn't it?


I seems to me that "I can't breathe" can also be short form for "I am awfully sorry officer but your hold on me is severely impairing my ability to breathe such that I fear I will expire momentarily". 

Granted, but then that isn't a chokehold.

I am not saying the cops didn't do anything wrong, just that the specific charge commonly made doesn't fit my understanding of what a chokehold is, and watching the video it looks more like a headlock.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 13, 2014, 04:33:28 PM
I've been wondering why choppers have been circling the last couple hours. :D -_-

http://www.newsweek.com/thousands-protesters-expected-washington-nyc-over-police-killings-291763

QuoteThousands of Protesters March in Washington, NYC Over Police Killings

Thousands of demonstrators gathered in Washington on Saturday for a march to protest the killings of unarmed black men by law enforcement officers and to urge Congressto do more to protect African-Americans from unjustified police violence.

Organizers said the event and a parallel march in New York City would rank among the largest in the recent wave of protests against the killings of black males by officers in Ferguson, Missouri, New York, Cleveland and elsewhere.

Decisions by grand juries to return no indictments against the officers involved in the death of Michael Brown in Missouri and Eric Garner in New York have put the issue of police treatment of minorities back on the national agenda.

Thousands of people assembled in Freedom Plaza, a couple of blocks from the White House, before setting off at noon on a three-mile march down Pennsylvania Avenue for a rally in front of the U.S. Capitol.

"I came out today seeking justice and also policy changing when it comes to policing all throughoutAmerica," said Aisha Wilson, 37, from Paterson, New Jersey.

The march was organized by National Action Alliance, a civil rights organization headed by the Rev. Al Sharpton.

"We need more than just talk," Sharpton said in a statement before the march. "We need legislative action that will shift things both on the books and in the streets."

Sharpton urged Congress to pass legislation that would allow federal prosecutors to take over cases involving police. He said local district attorneys often work with police regularly, raising the potential of conflicts of interest when prosecutors investigate incidents, he said.

The Washington protest will include the families of Eric Garner and Akai Gurley, who were killed by New York police; Trayvon Martin, slain by a Florida neighborhood watchman in 2012; and Michael Brown, killed by an officer in Ferguson.

Samaria Rice, the mother of 12-year-old Tamir Rice, shot to death last month by a Cleveland police officer, also attended.

Protesters are expected to arrive by bus from as far away as Florida, Connecticut and Pittsburgh, according to the organizers' website.

In New York, the march was expected to draw about tens of thousands of people and was meant to reinvigorate protests that swelled after a grand jury declined to indict the officer who killed Garner using a chokehold, organizers said.

"It's open season on black people now," New York march co-organizer Umaara Elliott said in a statement. "So we demand that action be taken at every level of government to ensure that these racist killings by the police cease."

The march was to start at 2 p.m. at Washington Square in Greenwich Village, head north to midtown and then turn downtown to end at New York Police Department headquarters in lower Manhattan.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
Quote"It's open season on black people now,"

derspiess says, "Where's the license application?"

WABBIT SEASON
NEGRO SEASON
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 12:18:34 AM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-12/ferguson-to-increase-police-ticketing-to-close-city-s-budget-gap.html


Oh my freaking god. Can you possibly be more out of touch.  :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2014, 12:54:44 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 12:18:34 AM
Oh my freaking god. Can you possibly be more out of touch.  :lol:

QuoteHoward Cure, head of municipal research at New York-based Evercore Wealth Management LLC, which oversees $5.2 billion, said Ferguson's reliance on revenue from police citations may have contributed to public anger after officer Darren Wilson shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown.

"It leads to animosity and distrust that might have even spawned some of the unrest that we're seeing," Cure said.

Government dependence on police fines is a larger issue in surrounding St. Louis County, especially among its "poor" and "small" communities, Tim Fischesser, executive director of the St. Louis Municipal League, said in a telephone interview. The poverty rate in Ferguson was 22 percent in 2012, the latest year for which data is available, compared with a national average of 15 percent, according to U.S. Census Bureau data.

"They said they weren't going to go after poor people, so to speak, to fund their budget, but I guess that's changed, Fischesser said.

I think somewhere in this car wreck of a thread I posted an article on Ferguson PD's big problems, and its heavy reliance on citations to drive its municipal revenue.  That being said, it doesn't make Ferguson unique in that regard.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:43:08 PM
Pretty much every town in Missouri does that.  People want low taxes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 14, 2014, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:43:08 PM
Pretty much every town in Missouri does that.  People want low taxes.

So they delegate taxation to the discretion of the police? That sounds almost feudal.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 10:06:27 PM
 :huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2014, 10:08:34 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 14, 2014, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:43:08 PM
Pretty much every town in Missouri does that.  People want low taxes.

So they delegate taxation to the discretion of the police? That sounds almost feudal.

Like Raz says, they don't like taxes out there.  So....if it isn't white, we must cite!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 10:12:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 10:06:27 PM
:huh:
:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 10:37:28 PM
Awesome.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 10:39:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 10:37:28 PM
Awesome.
I'm done here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on December 14, 2014, 10:41:38 PM
Yi wins!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on December 14, 2014, 10:44:22 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 14, 2014, 10:41:38 PM
Yi wins!

Agreed. D-man is too much of a pacifist.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 10:47:19 PM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 14, 2014, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 10:12:28 PM
:huh:

:mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jacob on December 15, 2014, 01:44:12 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 10:06:27 PM
:huh:

Was that directed at me?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on December 15, 2014, 01:51:52 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 14, 2014, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:43:08 PM
Pretty much every town in Missouri does that.  People want low taxes.

So they delegate taxation to the discretion of the police? That sounds almost feudal.

Nah, guys with guns being sent out as tax collectors are far more effective than the feudal model.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2014, 02:48:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 15, 2014, 01:44:12 PM
Was that directed at me?

Yes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on December 28, 2014, 12:41:59 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-police-brown-memorial-piece-of-trash-in-street-154823869.html

QuoteFerguson officer placed on unpaid leave after calling Michael Brown memorial 'a pile of trash'

Timothy Zoll, a spokesman for the department, initially denied making incendiary comments

The spokesman for the Ferguson, Mo., police department has been placed on unpaid leave after calling the makeshift memorial to slain black teenager Michael Brown a "pile of trash in the middle of the street" after it was destroyed.

Timothy Zoll, the Ferguson police public information officer, told the Washington Post that he wasn't sure the destruction of the memorial on Christmas night amounted to a crime.

"I don't know that a crime has occurred," Zoll said, according to the paper. "But a pile of trash in the middle of the street? The Washington Post is making a call over this?"

When asked about the remarks, Zoll told KMOX-TV that the Post had misquoted him.

According to a statement by the City of Ferguson released Saturday, Zoll initially denied making the comments to his superiors, too.

"Upon being confronted with the results of the Ferguson Police Department's investigation regarding the remarks that were attributed to the Public Information Officer, the officer admitted to Department investigators that he did in fact make the remarks attributed to him, and that he misled his superiors when asked about the contents of the interview," the statement read.

Zoll was placed on unpaid leave pending "disciplinary proceedings." According to city records obtained by Yahoo News, Zoll been with the department for 12 years and earns an annual salary of $50,960.

"The City of Ferguson wants to emphasize that negative remarks about the Michael Brown memorial do not reflect the feelings of the Ferguson Police Department and are in direct contradiction to the efforts of City officials to relocate the memorial to a more secure location," the statement continued. "The Ferguson Police Department also wants to note that even after the officer's initial denial of his statement; the Police Chief continued the investigation until the truth was discovered. The City of Ferguson and the Ferguson Police Department in particular, are focused on creating a trusting relationship with the entire community and taking impactful steps to improve the effectiveness of the department."

Meanwhile, residents have rebuilt the memorial on Canfield Drive near the site where Brown was fatally shot by a white police officer in August.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 28, 2014, 04:50:58 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 14, 2014, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:43:08 PM
Pretty much every town in Missouri does that.  People want low taxes.

So they delegate taxation to the discretion of the police? That sounds almost feudal.

Well almost.  Cities and Counties in the state are chronically underfunded in due to low taxes.  The police departments are expected to make up the difference by collecting revenue in the form of fines for traffic violations.  The result is the police can be rather predatory in citing traffic violations.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 28, 2014, 04:57:09 PM
And because they have "cities" and police departments that shouldn't exist, and they have to pay for that somehow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on December 28, 2014, 07:19:09 PM
I think 30K is large enough to need police.  We had a recent problem where a small town a little to the south of where I live had to disband it's police department.  Turns out, not having a police department is a real pain the in the ass.  Nobody wants to have to sit around waiting an hour for a sheriff's deputy to show up when you crash your car and need to report it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on December 28, 2014, 08:12:36 PM
I live in a town with its own police department. Works just fine.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 09, 2015, 04:59:33 PM
More cops out of control.


QuoteBaltimore police horse bit hand of child in wheelchair, lawsuit says

he incident near the Inner Harbor began with a jubilant 8-year-old reaching from her wheelchair to pet a horse in the Baltimore Police Department's mounted unit. It ended with the horse maiming the girl's hand, according to a $1 million lawsuit filed by her mother.

"The horse did not release its bite and [the girl's] hand had to be ripped from the horse's mouth," says the lawsuit filed by Arianna Jacques' mother, Lisa Gillespie of Queen Anne's County. The left hand of the girl, who has cerebral palsy, "was severely injured with bone showing and needed two surgeries."

The lawsuit — which is being challenged by attorneys for the city — is one of the latest legal entanglements for the Police Department.

A six-month Sun investigation published last fall showed that the city had paid $5.7 million since 2011 in court judgments and settlements related to lawsuits accusing officers of brutality and other misconduct. Gillespie's lawsuit, filed last year, was listed in records that The Baltimore Sun requested from the city detailing all lawsuits filed against police officers in 2013 and 2014.

A city judge recently ordered Gillespie and the city to try to resolve the case in mediation.

According to the lawsuit, the city's mounted unit was providing security and crowd control for the Baltimore Grand Prix in August 2013 when the incident occurred.

Before the incident, Arianna had the full use of only her left hand because of cerebral palsy, the lawsuit says. She used it to communicate and to operate her wheelchair.

According to the lawsuit, when mounted officers approached Arianna and her mother, the child became excited and waved. Officer Arturo Garvin told the girl that she could pet his horse, Buster, and lowered its head. Garvin assured Gillespie and Arianna that the horse was friendly.

For no apparent reason, the horse clamped down on the girl's hand.

Gillespie, who lives in Centreville and is represented by attorneys Michael H. Berestonof Annapolis and Robert Joyce of Baltimore, accuses Garvin, a seven-year veteran, of gross negligence and negligence for failing to prevent the horse from attacking without cause, according to the lawsuit. Gillespie also accuses the agency of hiring employees without adequate skills to oversee police horses.

Garvin declined to comment, and Baltimore police spokesman Lt. Eric Kowalczyk said the department would not comment on pending litigation.

A law firm hired by the city to defend officers has responded in legal filings by saying that Gillespie and Arianna took a risk by petting the horse.

Garvin was not negligent and did not have an "evil motive, influenced by hate, to deliberately and willfully injure" the child, wrote attorney Merrilyn E. Ratliff of Whiteford, Taylor & Preston. Gillespie and Arianna "requested to touch a large animal, chose to touch it near its mouth, and assumed the risk of that animal's behavior," Ratliff said.

One of Arianna's lawyers disagreed. "Garvin is just as grossly negligent in this behavior as would a patrol officer, working in the crowd during the Grand Prix, to allow minor children to touch his service weapon," Joyce wrote in a court filing.

Garvin began riding horses 15 years ago as a hobby while he was in the military, according to a televised interview at the 2013 Preakness.

Although Gillespie is seeking $1 million, Maryland's Local Government Tort Claims Act generally caps damages against local governments at $200,000 per claim. The statutory cap can be exceeded when there are multiple claims in a lawsuit, and if there is malice, the cap may not apply.

Mounted officers serve as ceremonial representatives and goodwill ambassadors of the department, but the horses also help officers break up disturbances and chase criminals. Children sometimes ask to pet the horses and chat with the officers.

Baltimore police would not discuss procedures that mounted unit officers use when the horses interact with people.

But a retired Cleveland officer discussed the way he handled his horse in public settings.

Shawn Howard, who spent 10 years in that city's mounted unit, said he always told people to pet the side of the horse's head and not reach near the mouth.

Howard said he would always jump off the horse to give it food when residents offered treats. He put the food in his extended palm so the horse wouldn't grab his hand.

It's common for horses to "nip" people, Howard said, and officers sometimes don't have enough time to react when people raise their arms.

"It happens so fast when people put their hands near the mouth," he said. "The horse immediately thinks he's getting a treat and bites the hand."

A website devoted to Baltimore police history — going back decades — shows dozens of photos of children and adults posing with and petting the horses.

Baltimore's mounted unit has a storied tradition as one of the oldest continuously operated mounted police divisions in the United States.

The unit, formed 127 years ago by a Confederate soldier who served under Stonewall Jackson, initially enforced the city's 6-mph speed limit for horse-drawn carriages. As late as 1995, the department still had a horse named after the general.

In his voluminous history of the city Police Department, W.M. Hackley devoted 66 pages to the unit, including photos of officers patrolling after the Great Fire of 1904 and during the riots of the 1960s, as well as participating in parades. In 1994, a quarterhorse named Bozman died after running into a parked car while chasing a burglary suspect.

The unit had 24 draft horses in the 1980s, but that number dropped to eight in 2013.

Hard times hit the unit in 2009. The Great Recession forced the department to trim expenses from its $312 million budget. But groups like the Baltimore Community Foundation and the nonprofit Police Foundation raised money to feed and care for the horses. Schoolchildren also sold cookies and lemonade to raise cash.

In 2010, the 7-Eleven convenience store chain even donated $5,000 and gained naming rights to a purebred Percheron once known as Blackie. It became Slurpee, named after the store's frozen beverage.

Barney, one of the horses in the unit, also made an appearance in an episode of HBO's series "The Wire."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on January 09, 2015, 05:01:36 PM
QuoteBaltimore police horse bit hand of child in wheelchair, lawsuit says

That's hilariously bad PR.

QuoteThe unit, formed 127 years ago by a Confederate soldier who served under Stonewall Jackson

Raciss!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on January 09, 2015, 05:04:11 PM
Kid ought not to be touching a police horse. Damn rugrats.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on January 09, 2015, 05:04:45 PM
Is the horse being placed on paid leave pending a grand jury hearing?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 09, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
I understand he's on administrative paid leave, riding a desk.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on January 09, 2015, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2015, 05:04:45 PM
Is the horse being placed on paid leave pending a grand jury hearing?

Hands Up! Don't Bite!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on January 09, 2015, 05:07:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 09, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
I understand he's on administrative paid leave, riding a desk.

Neigh
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on January 09, 2015, 05:10:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 09, 2015, 05:01:36 PM
QuoteBaltimore police horse bit hand of child in wheelchair, lawsuit says

That's hilariously bad PR.


Could have been worse ... [/Mr. Hands]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2015, 05:31:20 PM
Hopefully this will spur some much needed reform.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on January 09, 2015, 05:34:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2015, 05:31:20 PM
Hopefully this will spur some much needed reform.

I thunk that would be putting the cart before the horse.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2015, 01:03:44 PM
Not strictly related to the topic of the thread but seemed the closest:

QuoteGeorge Zimmerman Arrested For Aggravated Assault With Weapon
George Zimmerman was arrested late Friday for aggravated assault and domestic violence with a weapon after allegedly throwing a wine bottle at his girlfriend, Florida police and his lawyer said.

Then 31-year-old was detained at 10 p.m in Lake Mary, near Orlando, his booking record shows. At a Saturday morning court appearance, Zimmerman was granted a $5,000 bond, which he posted. He was released from jail a short time after noon, and was ordered to not have any contact with the alleged victim or travel to Volusia County, where she lives, reported NBC affiliate WESH.

A lawyer for Zimmerman said the woman is his girlfriend, and the incident involved him allegedly tossing a wine bottle at her earlier this week at his Lake Mary home, according to the Sun-Sentinel newspaper.

He also must surrender any firearms he owns — even though the judge said there was no indication he used one in this case. He is expected to appear in court again Feb. 17.

Zimmerman was acquitted by a Florida jury in 2013 of second-degree murder in connection with the killing of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin.

He filed a defamation suit against NBC News but a judge dismissed that claim last summer. He has appealed the judge's decision.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 10, 2015, 01:11:55 PM
Imagine that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on January 10, 2015, 01:21:13 PM
Dude just has the worst luck :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 10, 2015, 01:21:54 PM
Yeah, you'd think he's a victim of profiling or something.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2015, 01:48:01 PM
Hadn't he faced the same charges in 2013 when he pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on January 10, 2015, 07:15:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2015, 05:04:45 PM
Is the horse being placed on paid leave pending a grand jury hearing?

Is being sent to Aldis.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 10, 2015, 07:45:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2015, 01:48:01 PM
Hadn't he faced the same charges in 2013 when he pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend?

QuoteFriday's arrest is far from Zimmerman's first run-in with the law since he was acquitted in 2013 of a second-degree murder charge for shooting 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. According to the AP:

    — He was arrested on charges of aggravated assault, battery and criminal mischief after his then-girlfriend said he pointed a gun at her face during an argument, smashed her coffee table and pushed her out of the house they shared. Samantha Scheibe decided not to cooperate with detectives and prosecutors didn't pursue the case.

    — Zimmerman was accused by his estranged wife of smashing an iPad during an argument at the home they had shared. Shellie Zimmerman initially told a dispatcher her husband had a gun, though she later said he was unarmed. No charges were ever filed because of a lack of evidence. The dispute occurred days after Shellie Zimmerman filed divorce papers.

    — Zimmerman has also been pulled over three times for traffic violations since his acquittal.

In September, police said a man accused Zimmerman of threatening him during an altercation on the road, though he was never arrested or charged, according to CNN.

"I will ... kill you," Zimmerman allegedly said, according to police. "Do you know who I am?"
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on January 11, 2015, 04:50:28 AM
Everyone deserves a 9th chance.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2015, 04:55:33 AM
The guy isn't really that white either.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on January 11, 2015, 04:57:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2015, 04:55:33 AM
The guy isn't really that white either.
He's a beaner
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on January 11, 2015, 09:28:59 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 09, 2015, 04:59:33 PM
In 2010, the 7-Eleven convenience store chain even donated $5,000 and gained naming rights to a purebred Percheron once known as Blackie. It became Slurpee, named after the store's frozen beverage.

The fact that nobody's commented on this gem saddens me. :(

:P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Kleves on January 11, 2015, 10:33:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2015, 04:55:33 AM
The guy isn't really that white either.
He's a white Hispanic.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on January 12, 2015, 07:48:12 AM
Quote from: Kleves on January 11, 2015, 10:33:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2015, 04:55:33 AM
The guy isn't really that white either.
He's a white Hispanic.

More beige than white.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on January 12, 2015, 10:08:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2015, 04:55:33 AM
The guy isn't really that white either.

Apparently white enough to fit the "white men gunning down black youths" narrative.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on January 12, 2015, 10:09:52 AM
I like the idea of Marti talking about race in America.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on January 12, 2015, 10:18:46 AM
I like when he talks about primates.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 10:19:20 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 12, 2015, 10:09:52 AM
I like the idea of Marti talking about race in America.

Are colours different in America than they are in Europe? Because this guy is brown, like most so-called "blacks".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on January 12, 2015, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 10:19:20 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 12, 2015, 10:09:52 AM
I like the idea of Marti talking about race in America.

Are colours different in America than they are in Europe? Because this guy is brown, like most so-called "blacks".

Perception of race is likely different, yes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2015, 11:28:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 10:19:20 AM
Are colours different in America than they are in Europe? Because this guy is brown, like most so-called "blacks".
Yes. My perception is that what matters most is blackness or not. Whiteness is terribly flexible.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 12, 2015, 11:35:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 10:19:20 AM
Are colours different in America than they are in Europe? Because this guy is brown, like most so-called "blacks".

"Brown" covers a huge range of hues, including most white people who live below 40 degrees latitude or so.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 16, 2015, 03:30:41 PM
QuotePolice camera shows final moments before man killed Flagstaff officer
Disturbing video captured the moments leading up to the killing of a rookie Arizona officer by an armed suspect.

24-year-old Flagstaff police Officer Tyler Jacob Stewart was killed December 27 by a man concealing a firearm.

According to The Republic, Officer Stewart responded to an apartment where 28-year-old Robert William Smith and his girlfriend had reportedly been arguing over unwashed dishes. Smith had become violent and broke items around the house, resulting in the girlfriend's call to police.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=227_1421255859

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa57.foxnews.com%2Fglobal.fncstatic.com%2Fstatic%2Fmanaged%2Fimg%2FU.S.%2F880%2F558%2Farizonacop.jpg%3Fve%3D1%26amp%3Btl%3D1&hash=4db3bd7e73fd54b7f55ec51a2f1c8c351d6d3ecd)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on January 16, 2015, 03:35:57 PM
Dog bites man. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 16, 2015, 05:00:03 PM
Everything seemed fine until the officer asked to frisk him. I guess the guy panicked. Sad.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 16, 2015, 05:04:12 PM
Yes, Marty.  :P

I decided you could use the night off, and find something else to do on a Friday night instead of goofing on murdered officers.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on January 16, 2015, 05:18:16 PM
Been a while since I saw Seedy go all Sergeant Mulcahy on someone.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wearysloth.com%2FGallery%2FActorsF%2F5709-7349.gif&hash=fcca46b28638415bb73ab7e2e0d505b53c1e9dee)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on January 16, 2015, 05:44:12 PM
I don't think I want to watch that. :(  From the description sounds like a domestic call.  Those things are shit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on January 16, 2015, 09:21:08 PM
Good grief, on the face of it not good PR and suggests one or tow twisted cops are in that department:

Quote
Florida police shot images of black men in training

US police officers have been criticised for using mug shots of black suspects for target practice in Florida.

The images used by North Miami Beach Police were discovered by a female soldier who used the firing range after a police training session.

Sgt Valerie Deant recognised her brother as one of the target images, according to NBC Miami.

Police Chief J Scott Dennis said that his officers had used poor judgment but denied racial profiling.


He told NBC that using real suspect images was an important part of training for his sniper team and that his officers had not violated any policies.

"There is no discipline forthcoming from the individuals who were involved with this," he said.

A police spokeswoman added on Friday that officers use targets of all races and genders in their training sessions.
'Speechless'

The six targets left behind by police were found last month by Sgt Deant, a band member of the Florida Army National Guard.

"I was like, why is my brother being used for target practice?" she told NBC Miami on Friday.

The photo of her brother Woody Deant had been taken after his arrest as a teenager for drag racing. It had been shot several times.

Mr Deant said he was "speechless" when he heard the news.

"Now I'm being used as a target? I'm not even living that life according to how they portrayed me as. I'm a father. I'm a husband. I'm a career man. I work nine to five."

Police Chief Dennis said that was they were "very very concerned" that one of the targets had been of a man who would be on the streets of North Miami Beach.
...


Full article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30860057 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30860057)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2015, 06:41:36 PM
The fact that we don't have solid numbers on police shootings really disturbs me.

You can watch a video of the speech here
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/us/politics/fbi-director-comey-speaks-frankly-about-police-view-of-blacks.html?_r=0
QuoteSurprising Speech by F.B.I. Chief Focuses on Police and Race

By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDTFEB. 12, 2015

WASHINGTON — The F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, on Thursday delivered an unusually frank speech about the relationship between the police and black people, saying that officers who work in neighborhoods where blacks commit crimes at higher rates develop a cynicism that shades their attitudes about race.

He said that officers — whether they are white or any other race — who are confronted with white men on one side of the street and black men on the other do not view them the same way. The officers develop a mental shortcut that "becomes almost irresistible and maybe even rational by some lights" because of the number of black suspects they have arrested.

"We need to come to grips with the fact that this behavior complicates the relationship between police and the communities they serve," Mr. Comey said in the speech, at Georgetown University.

While officers should be closely scrutinized, he said, they are "not the root cause of problems in our hardest-hit neighborhoods," where blacks grow up "in environments lacking role models, adequate education and decent employment."

"They lack all sorts of opportunities that most of us take for granted," Mr. Comey said.

Mr. Comey's speech was unprecedented for an F.B.I. director. Previous directors have limited their public comments about race to civil rights investigations, like those of murders committed by the Ku Klux Klan and how the bureau wiretapped the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

The surveillance of Dr. King is considered one of the F.B.I.'s greatest overreaches of power. Mr. Comey, who has led the F.B.I. for about 18 months, has said that as part of his job, he wants to foster a national debate about law enforcement issues that state and local authorities across the country are facing.

He said that he decided to give the speech because he felt that in the aftermath of the shooting of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old black man, by a white police officer in Ferguson, Mo., the country had not "had a healthy dialogue," and that he did not "want to see those important issues drift away."

One remedy, Mr. Comey said, would be for the police to have more interactions with those they are charged to protect. "It's hard to hate up close," he said.

Mr. Comey said there was significant research that says all people have unconscious racial biases. Although people cannot help their instinctive reactions, law enforcement needs "to design systems and processes to overcome that very human part of us all," he said.

"Although the research may be unsettling, what we do next is what matters most," Mr. Comey said.

He said that law enforcement agencies across the country needed to be compelled to report shootings that involve police officers so there can be a baseline to measure the issue.

"It's ridiculous that I can't tell you how many people were shot by the police last week, last month, last year," Mr. Comey said.

In addressing race relations, Mr. Comey was trying to do something that politicians and law enforcement leaders — including his boss, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. — have failed to do without creating significant backlash.
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story

After the fatal shooting in Ferguson, Mr. Holder was widely criticized by police organizations and Republicans for a series of comments he made that were seen as unfairly critical of the police. Before the results of an investigation into the Ferguson Police Department were complete, Mr. Holder said that the department needed wholesale changes, that he stood with the people of Ferguson and that he had been profiled by the police.

Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York faced a crisis with his police department for comments he made after a grand jury on Staten Island declined to indict a police officer whose chokehold led to the death of an unarmed black man. Officers also stopped enforcing low levels crimes.

Mr. de Blasio said that he and his wife, Chirlane McCray, had instructed their son, Dante, who is biracial, "on how to take special care" during his interactions with the police. The mayor said that he worried about whether his son was safe at night. The police responded by turning their backs on Mr. de Blasio at the memorial services for two police officers who were killed in December.

Mr. Comey has shown a willingness to weigh in aggressively on race issues as far back as college.

As a student at the College of William and Mary, Mr. Comey was a co-author of a 1980 editorial in the school's newspaper that took the college to task for its lack of efforts to foster diversity. He said that the college had set aside millions of dollars to improve its athletics programs, but that it had not dedicated nearly as much money to its recruiting budget for members of minority groups.

"So, if the college wants to enroll more black students, what is the holdup?" the editorial said. "Is the college unable to provide the resources necessary for an effective recruiting program? Unable, no. Unwilling, yes."

It added: "We think that a lack of commitment is the problem. The college, it seems, is only committed to staying out of the courtroom. We wish we attended a college committed to its social responsibilities."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on February 12, 2015, 09:38:32 PM
Better late than never.  Since Ferguson people seem to be taking this issue much more seriously.  That's excellent, glad to see the FBI taking the lead.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on February 12, 2015, 11:49:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2015, 10:08:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2015, 04:55:33 AM
The guy isn't really that white either.

Apparently white enough to fit the "white men gunning down black youths" narrative.

Well I guess he's not invited to the country club then.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2015, 11:58:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2015, 09:38:32 PM
That's excellent, glad to see the FBI taking the lead.

Maybe next up they'll start addressing their own shooting investigations.  But hey, baby steps.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on February 20, 2015, 05:20:51 AM
Thanks to Scips for putting this on Facebook:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/in-fairfax-va-a-different-no-less-scary-police-shooting-1.2960995

QuoteIn Fairfax, Va., a different, no-less-scary police shooting

White privilege didn't protect John Geer.

That's not to say he didn't have it. As a middle-class kitchen designer living in the pleasant Washington suburb of Fairfax, Va., he had nothing whatsoever in common with the impoverished black men killed by police in Missouri and Brooklyn last year.

Those deaths triggered riots, marches and demonstrations across America, and interventions by the White House.

But Geer, pierced 18 months ago by a police bullet as he stood inside the screen door of his own home, his hands raised, begging not to be shot, simply disappeared into the emotional mixing bowl of American news and political priorities.

That should not have happened. The killing of John Geer is probably the clearest and most compelling example of what amounts to police impunity in recent American history.

He committed no crime the day he was killed. Even the officer who shot him acknowledges that. There was no struggle. The details are not murky.

But because no one was marching in the streets on behalf of John Geer, because he was absent from national headlines, the system was able to make his outrageous death go away by the simple expedient of doing nothing and refusing to discuss it.

Here are the facts:

In August 2013, Geer's common law wife, who was breaking up with him and moving out, called police to report he was angrily throwing her possessions onto his front lawn.

Asked whether Geer had weapons, the woman answered yes, but they were legally owned and secured. No, he hadn't been drinking.

Two squad cars — four officers —  initially responded. Geer, on seeing them, retreated into his home, refusing to answer questions.

A few minutes later, Officer Rodney Barnes, a trained police negotiator, arrived, and as the four other policemen stood close behind him with weapons drawn, he began trying to coax John Geer out onto the porch.

Barnes would later recall that Geer was polite, but reluctant to leave his home, saying repeatedly he was frightened of being killed.

He said "I don't want anybody to get hurt," the negotiator told investigators a few months later. "I don't want to get shot."

'I know I can get shot'

Barnes asked Geer if he owned a pistol. Geer said yes, and fetched it. He held it up, holstered, for Barnes to see and set it aside, raising his hands again. He offered to let Barnes come into the house and retrieve the weapon.

He asked for permission to scratch his nose, Barnes said, and did it slowly, then raised his hands again. He asked to reach into his pocket for his phone; Barnes asked him not to, and he obeyed.

"He said 'I know if I reach down or drop my hands I can get shot," Barnes told detectives later. "I said, hey, nobody's going to shoot you..."

But Geer pointed to one nearby officer in particular: Adam Torres, who kept raising his Sig Sauer pistol from the "ready" position (pointed at Geer's legs) to aim at Geer's chest.

Please ask him not to point his gun at me, Geer begged Barnes. Geer even offered to come out and be handcuffed voluntarily if Torres and the other patrolmen would agree to move "way back."

Then he asked to scratch his nose again. Barnes consented. And Torres fired.


Geer, grabbing his wound, screamed in pain and stepped back, slamming his door.

"And I'm like, who the fuck shot?" Barnes told detectives later. "I kinda got a little pissed."

Torres acknowledged it had been him, and began muttering how he was sorry, and that his wrist was hurting. Then, unbidden, he told Barnes how he'd had a fight over the phone with his wife just before arriving on the scene.

Everyone else is wrong

Asked by Barnes why he'd fired, Torres said Geer had dropped his hands to his waist suddenly, that he appeared to be going for a weapon.

"I said I didn't see that," said Barnes later. "You know, and I never took my eye off him (Geer)."

The other three officers who'd been present told investigators the same thing. So did two civilian witnesses.

But prosecutors and police commanders and county officials buried the case
.

Fairfax County's top prosecutor declared a conflict of interest and referred the shooting to federal authorities.

The police department stonewalled reporters.

Federal investigators did investigate, and have reported to the U.S. attorney in Virginia, who has done nothing.

And all this was done under a cloak of secrecy, until, earlier this month, a judge finally ordered disclosure of nearly 11,000 documents, containing interviews with nearly everyone involved.

Torres, it turns out, stuck to his story that the other four officers were wrong.

Does he regret having shot Geer? "I don't feel sorry for shooting the guy at all."


Why did he tell Barnes immediately afterward he was sorry? He was concerned about having upset Barnes by shooting, he said.

Why did he talk about his wrist hurting? He doesn't remember. Why did he immediately say he'd just had a fight with his wife? "I don't know why."

Under the radar

The judge's disclosure order has created a bizarre situation: Nearly all the available evidence, including audio of the witness statements, is now available on the Fairfax County website.

According to those official documents, the shooter — a cop with significant anger issues (he once screamed and cursed at prosecutors in open court) — is contradicted by four fellow officers and two civilian witnesses. That sort of rank-breaking is practically unheard of.

And yet there has been no judicial action
, and almost no public uproar. Most politicians have remained silent. Those who have marched against police shootings in the past have been largely uninterested.

A protest at Fairfax police headquarters drew a couple of dozen people. Only the Washington Post has taken a serious interest in the case.

But the killing of John Geer should frighten everyone. It is the best example yet that while police often target minorities disproportionately, their basic and overriding demand is total and unquestioning submission to their authority.

Resist, however peacefully and even in your own home, and heaven help you, no matter what your skin colour.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on February 20, 2015, 07:32:19 AM
What a bizzare news item.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on February 20, 2015, 07:39:08 AM
I don't fully understand the situation. They don't have to investigate murders and prosecute murderers?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on February 20, 2015, 08:27:30 AM
Um I think we all knew unarmed white men get shot by the police, it is just it happens to unarmed black men more often.  Slightly annoyed that the CBC has latched on such a poorly defined concept as "white privilege" but that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 20, 2015, 08:38:06 AM
I wonder if his "wife" has any remorse.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2015, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 20, 2015, 08:38:06 AM
I wonder if his "wife" has any remorse.

When your wife fights with you when she's moving out, does she expect you to be executed by the police for throwing her stuff out in the yard?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 02, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
Make 'em squeal!  :menace:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/02/us/justice-department-report-to-fault-police-in-ferguson.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

QuoteJustice Department to Fault Ferguson Police, Seeing Racial Bias in Traffic Stops


By MATT APUZZOMARCH 1, 2015
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department has nearly completed a highly critical report accusing the police in Ferguson, Mo., of making discriminatory traffic stops of African-Americans that created years of racial animosity leading up to an officer's shooting of a black teenager last summer, law enforcement officials said.

According to several officials who have been briefed on the report's conclusions, the report criticizes the city for disproportionately ticketing and arresting African-Americans and relying on the fines to balance the city's budget. The report, which is expected to be released as early as this week, will force Ferguson officials to either negotiate a settlement with the Justice Department or face being sued by it on civil rights charges. Either way, the result is likely to be significant changes inside the Ferguson Police Department, which is at the center of a national debate over race and policing.

Ferguson erupted into angry, sometimes violent protests after a white police officer, Darren Wilson, shot and killed an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, in August. The Justice Department investigated that shooting, and officials have said they will clear the officer of civil rights charges. That finding is also expected soon.

But the report into the broader practices of the local police department will give the context for the shooting, describing the mounting sense of frustration and anger in a predominantly black city where the police department and local government are mostly white.

While the Justice Department's exact findings are not yet known, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., who is expected to leave office in the next few weeks, and other officials have said publicly that their investigation has focused on the use of excessive force and the treatment of prisoners in local jails as well as the traffic stops.

Blacks accounted for 86 percent of traffic stops in 2013 but make up 63 percent of the population, according to the most recent data published by the Missouri attorney general. And once they were stopped, black drivers were twice as likely to be searched, even though searches of white drivers were more likely to turn up contraband.



For people in Ferguson who cannot afford to pay their tickets, routine traffic stops can become yearslong ordeals, with repeated imprisonments because of mounting fines. Such fines are the city's second-largest source of revenue after sales tax. Federal investigators say that has provided a financial incentive to continue law enforcement policies that unfairly target African-Americans.

In an unrelated but similar case, the Justice Department recently filed court documents in a lawsuit over whether the city of Clanton, Ala., is running a debtors' prison. The lawsuit says city officials there keep poor people in jail simply because of their inability to pay fines.

"Because such systems do not account for individual circumstances of the accused, they essentially mandate pretrial detention for anyone who is too poor to pay the predetermined fee," wrote Vanita Gupta, the top civil rights prosecutor at the Justice Department, who is also supervising the Ferguson inquiry.

Investigators do not need to prove that Ferguson's policies are racially motivated or that the police intentionally singled out minorities. They need to show only that police tactics had a "disparate impact" on African-Americans and that this was avoidable. Nevertheless, the Justice Department's report is expected to include a reference to a racist joke that was circulated by email among city officials, according to several law enforcement officials.

James Knowles III, the mayor of Ferguson, said last week that he did not know what the Justice Department had found or would conclude. But he criticized Mr. Holder for saying recently that wholesale change was needed in Ferguson's police department.

"How come they haven't told us there is something that needs to be changed as they found it?" Mr. Knowles asked. "Why have they allowed whatever they think is happening to continue to happen for six months if that's the case?"

Mr. Holder has stood by his remarks, saying they were based on his deep understanding of the case. "The reality is, I've been briefed all along on this matter," he said at a news conference recently.

The Ferguson case will be the last in a long string of civil rights investigations into police departments that Mr. Holder has directed during his tenure. Since he became attorney general in 2009, the Justice Department has opened more than 20 such investigations and issued strong rebukes of departments in Cleveland and Albuquerque, accusing them of excessive force and unwarranted shootings.
 
The Ferguson report, however, is expected to more closely resemble last summer's report into police activities in Newark. There, as in Ferguson, the police stopped black people at a significantly higher rate than whites. "This disparity is stark and unremitting," the Justice Department wrote in that report, which concluded that African-Americans "bear the brunt" of the city's unconstitutional police practices.

In some cities investigated by the Justice Department, such as Albuquerque and Portland, Ore., city officials have said they are open to making changes and quickly reaching an agreement with the department to fix problems. Others have taken a more confrontational approach, did not settle and faced a federal civil rights lawsuit. The Justice Department has four such lawsuits open, including one against Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., and another against Sheriff Terry S. Johnson of Alamance County, N.C.

Mr. Knowles said he would not speculate on how Ferguson would respond to the report. "The City of Ferguson is going to make its decisions based on what its residents and the people in this region feel is necessary to move us forward," he said.

Mr. Knowles said the city hoped to increase diversity on its police force and was considering creating a board of citizens to help oversee it. He said the city was also considering creating a police youth program.

For Mr. Holder, the nation's first black attorney general, the Ferguson shooting was a signature moment. Already the most outspoken member of the Obama administration on issues of race relations, Mr. Holder became the president's emissary to Ferguson and helped calm tensions amid protests after the shooting. He spoke in personal terms about being stopped by police as a college student and again as a prosecutor in Washington.

"I wanted the people of Ferguson to know that I personally understood that mistrust," Mr. Holder said last summer after returning from Missouri. "I wanted them to know that while so much else may be uncertain, this attorney general and this Department of Justice stands with the people of Ferguson."

Comments like these attracted criticism from some police groups who said Mr. Holder was taking sides and casting aspersions on police officers. Mr. Holder has pledged that the Ferguson investigation — by far the most closely watched during his tenure — would be fair and independent. "I'm confident people will be satisfied with the results," he said.

John Eligon contributed reporting from Kansas City, Mo.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 02, 2015, 09:23:55 AM
They couldn't find a way to bring charges against Zimmerman or the Ferguson cop, so I guess this is something of a make-up call.  Probably won't placate the mob though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 02, 2015, 09:28:04 AM
Yeah, that must be it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 02, 2015, 09:34:06 AM
Or it's our self-proclaimed Activist Attorney General's parting gift to "his people".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 02, 2015, 09:53:47 AM
QuoteBlacks accounted for 86 percent of traffic stops in 2013 but make up 63 percent of the population, according to the most recent data published by the Missouri attorney general. And once they were stopped, black drivers were twice as likely to be searched, even though searches of white drivers were more likely to turn up contraband.

This would be really damning if they only pulled over Ferguson residents, and if whites and blacks committed exactly the same number of traffic infractions.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on March 02, 2015, 11:08:17 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 02, 2015, 09:53:47 AM
This would be really damning if they only pulled over Ferguson residents, and if whites and blacks committed exactly the same number of traffic infractions.

Actually, that wide a statistical gap is a problem in and of itself.  Which is exactly what has been reported about Ferguson, and one of the factors discussed by DOJ personnel even before the release of this report.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 02, 2015, 11:15:23 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 02, 2015, 11:08:17 AM
Actually, that wide a statistical gap is a problem in and of itself.  Which is exactly what has been reported about Ferguson, and one of the factors discussed by DOJ personnel even before the release of this report.

It is not proof in and of itself of discriminatory policing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 05, 2015, 05:54:57 PM
So no comments on the report itself?

It's pretty damning against the Ferguson PD.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 05, 2015, 05:56:36 PM
Yi said there is insufficient proof.  That's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:33:46 PM
Would love to know how you can tell whose a resident of a town at the time you pull them over.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 05, 2015, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:33:46 PM
Would love to know how you can tell whose a resident of a town at the time you pull them over.

Running the tags via mobile data terminal, license plates readers or just calling it in to dispatch.  The traffic stop begins before the traffic stop is ever initiated.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
Shows where the car's registered, not where the driver actually lives (per Yi's one-liner).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 05, 2015, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
Shows where the car's registered, not where the driver actually lives (per Yi's one-liner).

Statistical variance between driver and registered owner isn't that great, particularly in the 'hood, and you know that.  If it's a car registered in Ferguson, and there's one of those uppity negroes behind the wheel, chances are said uppity negro is a Ferguson resident.

Besides, the study isn't about the drivers--it's the PD's approaches to those drivers they pull over.  But, focusing on the drivers is a convenient fallacy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on March 05, 2015, 09:39:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 05, 2015, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:33:46 PM
Would love to know how you can tell whose a resident of a town at the time you pull them over.

Running the tags via mobile data terminal, license plates readers or just calling it in to dispatch.  The traffic stop begins before the traffic stop is ever initiated.
.

In a small enough town, the local cops know whose car is whose, anyway.  Wouldn't apply to Ferguson, though, but places maybe a quarter that size or smaller.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on March 05, 2015, 10:53:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 05, 2015, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
Shows where the car's registered, not where the driver actually lives (per Yi's one-liner).

Statistical variance between driver and registered owner isn't that great, particularly in the 'hood, and you know that.  If it's a car registered in Ferguson, and there's one of those uppity negroes behind the wheel, chances are said uppity negro is a Ferguson resident.

Besides, the study isn't about the drivers--it's the PD's approaches to those drivers they pull over.  But, focusing on the drivers is a convenient fallacy.

Nice when they have a pic attached too.  :ph34r
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 05, 2015, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 05, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
Shows where the car's registered, not where the driver actually lives (per Yi's one-liner).

Doesn't the court have to serve notice to someone who got a ticket, by sending a letter to their home?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
For the Languish "Meh, they're only niggers" crowd : an article where you can read excepts of the DOJ report, so you're not bothered with having to read the whole thing, what with it not being "proof in and of itself of discriminatory policing".

QuoteFerguson's Conspiracy Against Black Citizens
How the city's leadership harassed and brutalized their way to multiple civil-rights violations


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/03/ferguson-as-a-criminal-conspiracy-against-its-black-residents-michael-brown-department-of-justice-report/386887/

QuoteOne passage describes the way that Ferguson officials have criminalized being too poor to pay a ticket:

    In 2013 alone, the court issued over 9,000 warrants on cases stemming in large part from minor violations such as parking infractions, traffic tickets, or housing code violations. Jail time would be considered far too harsh a penalty for the great majority of these code violations, yet Ferguson's municipal court routinely issues warrants for people to be arrested and incarcerated for failing to timely pay related fines and fees. Under state law, a failure to appear in municipal court on a traffic charge involving a moving violation results in a license suspension. Ferguson has made this penalty more onerous by only allowing the suspension to be lifted after payment of an owed fine is made in full.

Here's how Ferguson officials wreak havoc on people's lives over the tiniest of infractions:

    We spoke... with an African-American woman who has a still-pending case stemming from 2007, when, on a single occasion, she parked her car illegally. She received two citations and a $151 fine, plus fees. The woman, who experienced financial difficulties and periods of homelessness over several years, was charged with seven Failure to Appear offenses for missing court dates or fine payments on her parking tickets between 2007 and 2010. For each Failure to Appear, the court issued an arrest warrant and imposed new fines and fees.

    From 2007 to 2014, the woman was arrested twice, spent six days in jail, and paid $550 to the court for the events stemming from this single instance of illegal parking. Court records show that she twice attempted to make partial payments of $25 and $50, but the court returned those payments, refusing to accept anything less than payment in full. One of those payments was later accepted, but only after the court's letter rejecting payment by money order was returned as undeliverable. This woman is now making regular payments on the fine. As of December 2014, over seven years later, despite initially owing a $151 fine and having already paid $550, she still owed $541.


....

Some officers from the Ferguson police department are so poorly trained and ignorant of the law that they openly related their unconstitutional behavior to DOJ investigators:

In our conversations with FPD officers, one officer admitted that when he conducts a traffic stop, he asks for identification from all passengers as a matter of course. If any refuses, he considers that to be "furtive and aggressive" conduct and cites—and typically arrests—the person for Failure to Comply. The officer thus acknowledged that he regularly exceeds his authority under the Fourth Amendment by arresting passengers who refuse, as is their right, to provide identification ... Further, the officer told us that he was trained to arrest for this violation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2015, 01:02:03 AM
Wow, this case is as clear cut as it can be yet Languish racists are still downplaying it. Just wow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 01:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 05, 2015, 05:54:57 PM
So no comments on the report itself?

It's pretty damning against the Ferguson PD.

*cough*
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2015, 01:22:19 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 01:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 05, 2015, 05:54:57 PM
So no comments on the report itself?

It's pretty damning against the Ferguson PD.

*cough*

I didn't mean you.  :hug:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on March 10, 2015, 08:41:57 AM
I have no desire to discuss anything with the pack of screeching baboons that inhabit Languish.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on March 10, 2015, 08:44:55 AM
http://english.pravda.ru/news/society/06-03-2015/129981-us_citizens_killed_by_police-0/

QuoteUS citizens 55 times more likely to be killed by police than terrorists

The data on the killings of US citizens by US police are grossly underestimated. It was reported earlier that US citizens run the risk of being killed by a police officer nine times more often than by a terrorist.

However, a careful analysis of the statistics of killings committed by police officers from 1999 till 2002 in Central Florida showed that national databases were not accurate. An average of 545 people killed by local and state law enforcement officers in the US went uncounted in the country's most authoritative crime statistics every year for almost a decade.

According to new close to reality estimates, US police officers kill on average 928 people a year. This has been a trend for nearly eight years already. This means that everyone, who lives in the US, is 55 times more likely to be killed by police than a terrorist.

Meanwhile, the FBI has published a different number - 383 people, which only confirms the failure of the US government to monitor and control the work of the police.

Daniel Benjamin, the Coordinator for Counterterrorism at the United States Department of State from 2009 to 2012, said that the total number of deaths from terrorism had been extremely small in the West in recent years. The terrorist threat itself has considerably reduced, according to statistics, but not media headlines.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 08:49:11 AM
Thanks Pravda but barely anybody in the US gets killed by terrorists.

The only number that matters is how many unarmed people get mistakenly shot by police.  If the police are justified in shooting you because you are pointing a gun at them well that is something else.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 08:51:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 10, 2015, 01:02:03 AM
Wow, this case is as clear cut as it can be yet Languish racists are still downplaying it. Just wow.

They have done a pretty good job completely ignoring garbon on this issue, but I guess that is because he is such a racebaiter.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on March 10, 2015, 09:13:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 08:49:11 AM
Thanks Pravda but barely anybody in the US gets killed by terrorists.

The only number that matters is how many unarmed people get mistakenly shot by police.  If the police are justified in shooting you because you are pointing a gun at them well that is something else.
AMERIKA POLICE STATE LOLOLOL!

Unlike Russia of course :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 10:19:48 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
For the Languish "Meh, they're only niggers" crowd : an article where you can read excepts of the DOJ report, so you're not bothered with having to read the whole thing, what with it not being "proof in and of itself of discriminatory policing".

Interesting to watch the DOJ report percolate through the blogosphere; libertarian-leaners are the right are aligning with the civil rights activists on this issue.

An example from Alex Tabarrok at Marginal Revolution: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/03/the-ferguson-kleptocracy.html

Concluding lines:
QuoteThe worst abuses of government happen when an invading gang conquer people of a different race, religion and culture. What happened in Ferguson was similar only the rulers stayed the same and the population of the ruled changed. In 1990 Ferguson was 74% white and 25% black. Just 20 years later the percentages had nearly inverted, 29% white and 67% black. The population of rulers, however, changed more slowly so white rulers found themselves overlording a population that was foreign to them. As a result, democracy broke down and government as usual, banditry and abuse, broke out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 10:31:53 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 10:19:48 AM
Concluding lines:
QuoteThe worst abuses of government happen when an invading gang conquer people of a different race, religion and culture. What happened in Ferguson was similar only the rulers stayed the same and the population of the ruled changed. In 1990 Ferguson was 74% white and 25% black. Just 20 years later the percentages had nearly inverted, 29% white and 67% black. The population of rulers, however, changed more slowly so white rulers found themselves overlording a population that was foreign to them. As a result, democracy broke down and government as usual, banditry and abuse, broke out.

:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 10:48:58 AM
No kidding it's like some strange cross between Al Sharpton and Ludwig von Mises.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on March 10, 2015, 11:37:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 08:51:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 10, 2015, 01:02:03 AM
Wow, this case is as clear cut as it can be yet Languish racists are still downplaying it. Just wow.

They have done a pretty good job completely ignoring garbon on this issue, but I guess that is because he is such a racebaiter.

:huh:

Why am I being dragged into this?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 11:42:42 AM
If the report is the unvarnished truth I would agree it's very troubling and exposes some serious issues that need to be addressed.  But since it was produced under the direction of our self-described "Activist Attorney General", it's difficult for me to trust it.

Why not just disband the enclave city of Ferguson and have the city of St. Louis annex it?  I would think that would make it easier to address some of the issues in the community.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 11:42:42 AM
If the report is the unvarnished truth I would agree it's very troubling and exposes some serious issues that need to be addressed.  But since it was produced under the direction of our self-described "Activist Attorney General", it's difficult for me to trust it.

:lol: 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 12:32:14 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 10, 2015, 11:37:30 AM
Why am I being dragged into this?

Because I consider you an 'ami du peuple' on this issue.  But if you want to forfeit your seat at the Jacobin club be my guest :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 11:42:42 AM
If the report is the unvarnished truth I would agree it's very troubling and exposes some serious issues that need to be addressed.  But since it was produced under the direction of our self-described "Activist Attorney General", it's difficult for me to trust it.

Why not just disband the enclave city of Ferguson and have the city of St. Louis annex it?  I would think that would make it easier to address some of the issues in the community.

Why don't you try actually reading portions of the report?  At 105 pages it a manageable length.  And to me it seems very well sourced - it has statistics and a whole series of emails to support the accusations it makes.

And given the politics involved I suspect that disbanding Ferguson is a far more complex than just about any other possible option out there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 10, 2015, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 11:42:42 AM
If the report is the unvarnished truth I would agree it's very troubling and exposes some serious issues that need to be addressed.  But since it was produced under the direction of our self-described "Activist Attorney General", it's difficult for me to trust it.

:lol:

He's becoming a parody of himself.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on March 10, 2015, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 11:42:42 AM
If the report is the unvarnished truth I would agree it's very troubling and exposes some serious issues that need to be addressed.  But since it was produced under the direction of our self-described "Activist Attorney General", it's difficult for me to trust it.

:lol:

You know, I thought he was being deliberately ironic when he wrote this, but I'm no longer so sure.  He does sound just like Siege, doesn't he?  Was that mocking Siege, or unconsciously channeling him?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 10, 2015, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
Why don't you try actually reading portions of the report?  At 105 pages it a manageable length.  And to me it seems very well sourced - it has statistics and a whole series of emails to support the accusations it makes.

:nerd:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: mongers on March 10, 2015, 02:44:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
For the Languish "Meh, they're only niggers" crowd : an article where you can read excepts of the DOJ report, so you're not bothered with having to read the whole thing, what with it not being "proof in and of itself of discriminatory policing".

QuoteFerguson's Conspiracy Against Black Citizens
How the city's leadership harassed and brutalized their way to multiple civil-rights violations


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/03/ferguson-as-a-criminal-conspiracy-against-its-black-residents-michael-brown-department-of-justice-report/386887/

QuoteOne passage describes the way that Ferguson officials have criminalized being too poor to pay a ticket:

    In 2013 alone, the court issued over 9,000 warrants on cases stemming in large part from minor violations such as parking infractions, traffic tickets, or housing code violations. Jail time would be considered far too harsh a penalty for the great majority of these code violations, yet Ferguson's municipal court routinely issues warrants for people to be arrested and incarcerated for failing to timely pay related fines and fees. Under state law, a failure to appear in municipal court on a traffic charge involving a moving violation results in a license suspension. Ferguson has made this penalty more onerous by only allowing the suspension to be lifted after payment of an owed fine is made in full.

Here's how Ferguson officials wreak havoc on people's lives over the tiniest of infractions:

    We spoke... with an African-American woman who has a still-pending case stemming from 2007, when, on a single occasion, she parked her car illegally. She received two citations and a $151 fine, plus fees. The woman, who experienced financial difficulties and periods of homelessness over several years, was charged with seven Failure to Appear offenses for missing court dates or fine payments on her parking tickets between 2007 and 2010. For each Failure to Appear, the court issued an arrest warrant and imposed new fines and fees.

    From 2007 to 2014, the woman was arrested twice, spent six days in jail, and paid $550 to the court for the events stemming from this single instance of illegal parking. Court records show that she twice attempted to make partial payments of $25 and $50, but the court returned those payments, refusing to accept anything less than payment in full. One of those payments was later accepted, but only after the court's letter rejecting payment by money order was returned as undeliverable. This woman is now making regular payments on the fine. As of December 2014, over seven years later, despite initially owing a $151 fine and having already paid $550, she still owed $541.


....

Some officers from the Ferguson police department are so poorly trained and ignorant of the law that they openly related their unconstitutional behavior to DOJ investigators:

In our conversations with FPD officers, one officer admitted that when he conducts a traffic stop, he asks for identification from all passengers as a matter of course. If any refuses, he considers that to be "furtive and aggressive" conduct and cites—and typically arrests—the person for Failure to Comply. The officer thus acknowledged that he regularly exceeds his authority under the Fourth Amendment by arresting passengers who refuse, as is their right, to provide identification ... Further, the officer told us that he was trained to arrest for this violation.

That shit over years will just grind you down; if I were in that poor person's position I think I'd prefer out and out racism.

At least if it's in you face you can react to it in a number of ways, depending on your personality and resources..
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 03:46:02 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 10, 2015, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
Why don't you try actually reading portions of the report?  At 105 pages it a manageable length.  And to me it seems very well sourced - it has statistics and a whole series of emails to support the accusations it makes.

:nerd:

No shit, now I have to read 105 pages just to please Beeb, who will still probably think I'm a racist? 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 03:52:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 03:46:02 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 10, 2015, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
Why don't you try actually reading portions of the report?  At 105 pages it a manageable length.  And to me it seems very well sourced - it has statistics and a whole series of emails to support the accusations it makes.

:nerd:

No shit, now I have to read 105 pages just to please Beeb, who will still probably think I'm a racist?

I don't think you're a racist. :hug:

YOu don't have to believe in institutional racism to see that a police force and justice system who sees its prime role as being to generate income for the city is profoundly broken.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 10, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
I've been told Iowa City gets about 40% of its revenue from traffic infractions, OUI being the biggest.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 04:08:29 PM
I joked a little above about this but the civil powers of governmental entities in the US are enormous and kind of scary.  The kinds of things that the DOJ talks about in the report are the manifestation at the local level of say the extraordinary forfeiture powers of the DOJ itself or their power to seize or freeze bank accounts or the powers of law enforcement authorities at all levels to seize contraband.  The systematic abuse that seems to have taken place in Ferguson may not be universal but even occasional, sporadic abuse is very troubling.  Rights that depend on the forbearance and discretion of individual agents of law enforcement are not rights at all.  And since we are talking about property rights, one would expect to see the libertarian wing of the conservative movement up in (non 2nd amendment) arms about this.  And to be fair, that does seem to be the case at the level of the academic world and commentariat.  But curiously, not much beyond that.  Where are the outraged outpourings of Cruzesque bloated rhetoric about over-reaching enforcement powers?  Where are the dozens of bills and riders to trim it back?  At the level of actual politics, where the rubber hits the road, does solicitude for property rights get trumped by the felt need to be seen as backing law and order in all instances?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
I think it gets trumped by hating black people. Just as it does with opposition to anything Obama does.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 10, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
I've been told Iowa City gets about 40% of its revenue from traffic infractions, OUI being the biggest.

That's messed up.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 10, 2015, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 04:08:29 PMWhere are the outraged outpourings of Cruzesque bloated rhetoric about over-reaching enforcement powers?  Where are the dozens of bills and riders to trim it back?  At the level of actual politics, where the rubber hits the road, does solicitude for property rights get trumped by the felt need to be seen as backing law and order in all instances?

They're too busy trying to be Tough On Crime(R).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 10, 2015, 05:21:41 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 10, 2015, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 04:08:29 PMWhere are the outraged outpourings of Cruzesque bloated rhetoric about over-reaching enforcement powers?  Where are the dozens of bills and riders to trim it back?  At the level of actual politics, where the rubber hits the road, does solicitude for property rights get trumped by the felt need to be seen as backing law and order in all instances?

They're too busy trying to be Tough On Crime(R).

More like the result of low taxes.  Municipalities have to make up the cash some way.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on March 10, 2015, 05:49:21 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 04:08:29 PM
I joked a little above about this but the civil powers of governmental entities in the US are enormous and kind of scary.  The kinds of things that the DOJ talks about in the report are the manifestation at the local level of say the extraordinary forfeiture powers of the DOJ itself or their power to seize or freeze bank accounts or the powers of law enforcement authorities at all levels to seize contraband.  The systematic abuse that seems to have taken place in Ferguson may not be universal but even occasional, sporadic abuse is very troubling.  Rights that depend on the forbearance and discretion of individual agents of law enforcement are not rights at all.  And since we are talking about property rights, one would expect to see the libertarian wing of the conservative movement up in (non 2nd amendment) arms about this.  And to be fair, that does seem to be the case at the level of the academic world and commentariat.  But curiously, not much beyond that.  Where are the outraged outpourings of Cruzesque bloated rhetoric about over-reaching enforcement powers?  Where are the dozens of bills and riders to trim it back?  At the level of actual politics, where the rubber hits the road, does solicitude for property rights get trumped by the felt need to be seen as backing law and order in all instances?
That's not so curious at all.  Most non-academic "libertarians" are in fact Jim Crow fascists that co-opt a much more legitimate ideology.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 06:08:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 10, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
I think it gets trumped by hating black people. Just as it does with opposition to anything Obama does.

Except these things happen to white people as well.  It just happens to black people more.  It also happens to other people who live in the US who are neither of those things.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 10, 2015, 05:49:21 PM
That's not so curious at all.  Most non-academic "libertarians" are in fact Jim Crow fascists that co-opt a much more legitimate ideology.

Well I don't know about that, but Siege's love of Constitutional rights sure doesn't extend to citizen's persons and property.  Yet he styles himself the champion of the people against slavery.  Weird that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 08:50:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 10, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
I've been told Iowa City gets about 40% of its revenue from traffic infractions, OUI being the biggest.

That's messed up.

Happens all sorts of other places, though it's often the town preying on out of towners rather than leeching off their own citizens.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on March 10, 2015, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 08:50:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 10, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
I've been told Iowa City gets about 40% of its revenue from traffic infractions, OUI being the biggest.

That's messed up.

Happens all sorts of other places, though it's often the town preying on out of towners rather than leeching off their own citizens.

I bet lots of little places get a bigger percentage of their revenue that from traffic fines.  And as I said before, in most really small cities and town, the local cops know the local people's cars, making it easy to target the out-of-towners.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: dps on March 10, 2015, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 08:50:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 10, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
I've been told Iowa City gets about 40% of its revenue from traffic infractions, OUI being the biggest.

That's messed up.

Happens all sorts of other places, though it's often the town preying on out of towners rather than leeching off their own citizens.

I bet lots of little places get a bigger percentage of their revenue that from traffic fines.  And as I said before, in most really small cities and town, the local cops know the local people's cars, making it easy to target the out-of-towners.

And still, that's really messed up.

Fines are a effective deterrent for wrongdoing, but if the state begins to rely upon them for a significant portion of revenues then all kinds of serious perverse incentives come into play.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Fines are a effective deterrent for wrongdoing, but if the state begins to rely upon them for a significant portion of revenues then all kinds of serious perverse incentives come into play.

They know.  They don't care.  This has been going on for decades.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Fines are a effective deterrent for wrongdoing, but if the state begins to rely upon them for a significant portion of revenues then all kinds of serious perverse incentives come into play.

They know.  They don't care.  This has been going on for decades.

Well tell them to stop it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on March 10, 2015, 10:20:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: dps on March 10, 2015, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 10, 2015, 08:50:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 10, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
I've been told Iowa City gets about 40% of its revenue from traffic infractions, OUI being the biggest.

That's messed up.

Happens all sorts of other places, though it's often the town preying on out of towners rather than leeching off their own citizens.

I bet lots of little places get a bigger percentage of their revenue that from traffic fines.  And as I said before, in most really small cities and town, the local cops know the local people's cars, making it easy to target the out-of-towners.

And still, that's really messed up.

Fines are a effective deterrent for wrongdoing, but if the state begins to rely upon them for a significant portion of revenues then all kinds of serious perverse incentives come into play.

I wasn't suggesting that it's not messed up.

Part of the problem is that in many states, local governments don't have very many revenue streams.  For example, in WV, the state legislature pretty severely limits the taxation power of local governments.  Actually, basically, municipalities there can't levy any taxes.  They get a share of the property tax collected by the county, and (I think) a share of the B&O tax (a particularly anti-business tax that, AFAIK, is unique to WV).  That just leaves some user fees, licenses, and permits for the cities and towns to get funding from without turning to traffic fines.  Fortunately, as best as I can tell, most municipalities there get enough from their share of the property tax that they don't have to rely too much on fines.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 11, 2015, 01:10:19 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2015, 04:08:29 PM
I joked a little above about this but the civil powers of governmental entities in the US are enormous and kind of scary.  The kinds of things that the DOJ talks about in the report are the manifestation at the local level of say the extraordinary forfeiture powers of the DOJ itself or their power to seize or freeze bank accounts or the powers of law enforcement authorities at all levels to seize contraband.  The systematic abuse that seems to have taken place in Ferguson may not be universal but even occasional, sporadic abuse is very troubling.  Rights that depend on the forbearance and discretion of individual agents of law enforcement are not rights at all.  And since we are talking about property rights, one would expect to see the libertarian wing of the conservative movement up in (non 2nd amendment) arms about this.  And to be fair, that does seem to be the case at the level of the academic world and commentariat.  But curiously, not much beyond that.  Where are the outraged outpourings of Cruzesque bloated rhetoric about over-reaching enforcement powers?  Where are the dozens of bills and riders to trim it back?  At the level of actual politics, where the rubber hits the road, does solicitude for property rights get trumped by the felt need to be seen as backing law and order in all instances?

When the news stories keep couching the problem as being racial prejudice rather than intrusive government, it's easy to tune out. Also, very few Republican congressmen have much in the way of sincere libertarian beliefs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 11, 2015, 03:24:34 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
Well tell them to stop it.

We'd really like to. Do you have any suggestions?


Holder did a positive thing a couple weeks ago, but honestly the snowball is rolling downhill at this point.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on March 11, 2015, 03:28:10 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 11, 2015, 01:10:19 AM
When the news stories keep couching the problem as being racial prejudice rather than intrusive government, it's easy to tune out. Also, very few Republican congressmen have much in the way of sincere libertarian beliefs.

And if you're styling yourself as law & order guy it's hard to side against cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 11, 2015, 06:21:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Fines are a effective deterrent for wrongdoing, but if the state begins to rely upon them for a significant portion of revenues then all kinds of serious perverse incentives come into play.

They know.  They don't care.  This has been going on for decades.

They don't have much choice.  People want police protection but are unwilling to pay for it.  Municipality needs to generate revenue somehow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on March 12, 2015, 03:54:51 AM
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/12/us/ferguson-protests/index.html

Quote2 police officers shot as Ferguson protests turn violent

(CNN)Two police officers were shot in Ferguson early Thursday morning as demonstrations that began as a celebration of the police chief's resignation gave way to violence and gunfire.

One, a St. Louis County police officer, was struck in the shoulder; the other, a Webster Groves officer, was hit in the face, said St. Louis Police Chief Jon Belmar.

The officers were hospitalized and conscious, he said.

Police from various jurisdictions were in the city keeping an eye on the protestors at the time.

"These police officers were standing there and they were shot, just because they were police officers," Belmar said.

Protesters had gathered outside the Ferguson Police Department Wednesday night to cheer the resignation of the city's embattled Police Chief Thomas Jackson.

The crowd had been thinning out, ready to call it a night, when the shots rang out, Belmar said.

"All of a sudden, I heard at least four or five shots ring out," witness Markus Loehrer told CNN. "It took me at least 30 seconds of watching before I realized there was an officer down. We are not there to shoot cops, we don't like violence. So we did what anybody would do -- we ran away."

"We could see the muzzle flash," said Bradley Rayford, a witness who said he was a few feet from the shooting. "Someone was shooting towards the police department."

The demonstrations started off peacefully, but devolved through the course of the night.

As they faced a long line of officers, some demonstrators briefly closed South Florissant Road that runs in front of the police station. At least two people were arrested, CNN affiliate KMOV reported, but it wasn't clear why.

Some chanted "Racist cops have got to go."

At least one scuffle broke out between demonstrators. Some officers stood behind cars with guns drawn.

The revived protests, which had died down in recent weeks, is indication that Ferguson continues to be a powder keg despite the string of resignations that have followed since the Justice Department issued a report damning the city's policing tactics for disproportionately targeting African-Americans.

The latest to step down was Police Chief Thomas Jackson.

Protester DeRay McKesson said demonstrators want more -- they want the police department disbanded and for Mayor James Knowles to resign as well.

The demonstrators are also angry that the officer who killed Michael Brown was exonerated of wrong doing by a grand jury and the Justice Department.

It was the shooting death of Brown, an unarmed black teen, by the white police Officer Darren Wilson that saw Ferguson erupt in sometimes-violent protests.

"We're here for Mike Brown," demonstrators chanted Wednesday night.

Chief's resignation
Earlier Wednesday, Chief Jackson resigned. He had come under fire almost immediately after Brown's death, and protesters had been demanding his resignation for months.

Jackson and the city "have agreed to a mutual separation," Ferguson officials announced.

"It's a really hard pill to swallow," Jackson said in a text message responding to CNN's request for comment.

The resignation will go into effect March 19, Jackson said, to "provide for an orderly transition of command."

Ferguson police chief resigns, gets one year pay

String of resignations
Jackson's resignation is the latest fallout from the Justice Department report, which faulted Ferguson's officers for seeing residents, particularly African-Americans, as "sources of revenue."

The investigators also found evidence of racist jokes being sent around by Ferguson police and court officials.

Ferguson City Manager John Shaw stepped down Tuesday. The report mentions both men by name.

Two police officers resigned last week and the city's top court clerk was fired in connection with racist emails, city spokesman Jeff Small said on Friday.

After his resignation Wednesday, Jackson said in a written statement to CNN's Don Lemon that he was encouraged by the report's conclusion, which says that Ferguson "has the capacity to reform its approach to law enforcement."

"We agree that Ferguson can do the tough work to see this through and emerge the best small town it can be," he said.

Chief defended department as criticism grew
When Jackson became Ferguson's police chief in 2010, it was supposed to be a relatively easy way to cap his career in law enforcement.

After some 30 years with the St. Louis County Police Department, serving as commander of a drug task force and SWAT team supervisor, being a police chief of a smaller department should have been less stressful.

The shooting of Michael Brown last year changed everything.

Brown, an African-American teen, was unarmed when he was shot by a white Ferguson police officer. The incident exposed feelings of distrust between Ferguson's black community and its police department, which is overwhelmingly white.

Darren Wilson, the officer who shot Brown, won't face any criminal charges for the shooting. In November, a grand jury decided not to indict him. Last week the Justice Department said Wilson's actions "do not constitute prosecutable violations" of federal civil rights law. He resigned from the department in November, citing security concerns.

But that hasn't stopped criticism of the department from local residents and top federal officials.

Even before the Justice Department report was finished, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said it was "pretty clear that the need for wholesale change in that department is appropriate."

Critics have accused Jackson of inflaming tensions in the St. Louis suburb with his response to the shooting.

Over the past six months, Jackson has defended his officers and vowed to work with the community.

"I intend to see this thing through. And I've been working with a lot of community members to work on some progressive changes that will bring the community together and to open up dialogue and getting us all talking about serious issues and actually creating solutions to problems," he told CNN in November.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 07:43:11 AM
Well that's just great.  Cowardly fucks were just hanging out in the crowd, I don't know if they can ever be found.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 07:48:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2015, 06:21:31 AM
They don't have much choice.  People want police protection but are unwilling to pay for it.  Municipality needs to generate revenue somehow.

Police Departments get money from the municipality yes but also from State and Federal sources.  If the State governments wanted to do something about this they could and, in many places, do.  It is not like every municipality is equally notorious for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 08:11:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 07:43:11 AM
Well that's just great.  Cowardly fucks were just hanging out in the crowd, I don't know if they can ever be found.

Well, if you choose to be a part of an evil "elite" bent on oppressing the masses, you should be prepared to face the wrath of the people.

You, of all people, should cheer on this.  :frog:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 08:21:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 08:11:42 AM
Well, if you choose to be a part of an evil "elite" bent on oppressing the masses, you should be prepared to face the wrath of the people.

You, of all people, should cheer on this.  :frog:

Nah this kind of thing always leads to a Thermidorian Reaction.  The principles of those calling for oversight and reform of the police will be blamed for this by counter-revolutionary forces. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.

See Marty?  See?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:54:36 AM
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 09:55:39 AM
derCracka sez, "Nigga's be niggin'!"  :klanhat:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 10:01:31 AM
I blame the commie outside agitators, actually.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 10:01:31 AM
I blame the commie outside agitators, actually.

Along with the whole civil rights movement.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 10:49:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 10:01:31 AM
I blame the commie outside agitators, actually.

Along with the whole civil rights movement.

Same thing, Red Raz.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
In one of the videos where the cops get shot, you can hear some voices taunting the cops and they are clearly nerdy white voices.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 11:00:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 07:48:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2015, 06:21:31 AM
They don't have much choice.  People want police protection but are unwilling to pay for it.  Municipality needs to generate revenue somehow.

Police Departments get money from the municipality yes but also from State and Federal sources.  If the State governments wanted to do something about this they could and, in many places, do.  It is not like every municipality is equally notorious for this sort of thing.

Most municipalities in Missouri are guilty of this.  There is a cap on how much revenue a city can get from traffic fines, and Ferguson didn't break that cap.  There is a bill in the General assembly that will lower the cap.  Urban and Suburban communities can only get 10% of their money from fines but small towns can get 15%. :rolleyes:  I think the current cap is 30%.  That law was created because of the notorious town of Macks Creek, which got most of it's funding from speeding tickets.  Two years after the law passed capping how much money a town can get from fines Macks Creek went bankrupt and dissolved.  So while stopping this practice seems like an easy solution, it can have negative consequences.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 11:01:31 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
In one of the videos where the cops get shot, you can hear some voices taunting the cops and they are clearly nerdy white voices.

Level 2 tech support?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.

Lulz, stop reading directly from the cue cards, derFoxandfriends.  :P

'Fox & Friends' tweet links Eric Holder, shootings of police in Ferguson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/03/12/fox-friends-tweet-links-eric-holder-shootings-of-police-in-ferguson/?tid=trending_strip_1)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on March 12, 2015, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:54:36 AM
You're welcome.

I hear a nerdy white voice coming from the back of Languish.  Coincidence?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on March 12, 2015, 11:39:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2015, 06:21:31 AM
They don't have much choice.  People want police protection but are unwilling to pay for it.  Municipality needs to generate revenue somehow.

Sure they do.  They can cut unnecessary crap from their budget.  Dallas manages to have a $2.2B budget, with $736M for "public safety", while collecting only $36M in fines from all sources.

If a municipality really cannot survive without a massive influx of fine revenue, it doesn't deserve to exist.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 12, 2015, 01:31:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2015, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:54:36 AM
You're welcome.

I hear a nerdy white voice coming from the back of Languish.  Coincidence?

There are nerdy white voices from the back, front, middle and every side of Languish, 360 degrees round.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
In one of the videos where the cops get shot, you can hear some voices taunting the cops and they are clearly nerdy white voices.

You got a problem with nerdy white voices?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.

Lulz, stop reading directly from the cue cards, derFoxandfriends.  :P

'Fox & Friends' tweet links Eric Holder, shootings of police in Ferguson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/03/12/fox-friends-tweet-links-eric-holder-shootings-of-police-in-ferguson/?tid=trending_strip_1)



THEY REPORT I DECIDE
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 01:38:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
‘Fox & Friends’ tweet links Eric Holder, shootings of police in Ferguson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/03/12/fox-friends-tweet-links-eric-holder-shootings-of-police-in-ferguson/?tid=trending_strip_1)

Yeah I knew that shit was coming next.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 12, 2015, 01:55:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 11:00:17 AM

Most municipalities in Missouri are guilty of this.  There is a cap on how much revenue a city can get from traffic fines, and Ferguson didn't break that cap.  There is a bill in the General assembly that will lower the cap.  Urban and Suburban communities can only get 10% of their money from fines but small towns can get 15%. :rolleyes:  I think the current cap is 30%.  That law was created because of the notorious town of Macks Creek, which got most of it's funding from speeding tickets.  Two years after the law passed capping how much money a town can get from fines Macks Creek went bankrupt and dissolved.  So while stopping this practice seems like an easy solution, it can have negative consequences.

Why not cut to the chase and just disband the towns? It should be easy to find out which ones have an inordinately high percentage and wack them. Unless there's something in the state constitution stopping it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 02:19:16 PM
Most people like their traffic lights to work.  You can get the already overburden county government to provide services but you might have to wait an hour for the fire department to show up or for the them to get enough county deputies to escort an ambulance to your house.  It's a sure fire way of getting your home value to fall like a rock (thought that has already happened in Ferguson).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 02:23:18 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on March 12, 2015, 11:39:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2015, 06:21:31 AM
They don't have much choice.  People want police protection but are unwilling to pay for it.  Municipality needs to generate revenue somehow.

Sure they do.  They can cut unnecessary crap from their budget.  Dallas manages to have a $2.2B budget, with $736M for "public safety", while collecting only $36M in fines from all sources.

If a municipality really cannot survive without a massive influx of fine revenue, it doesn't deserve to exist.

Dallas is a fairly large city with a large tax base.  Ferguson is not.  Also what is the cap that the a Texas city can get from speeding tickets?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 12, 2015, 02:24:21 PM
How do you tell if a particular white voice is nerdy or not?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
In Ferguson's case, just have the city annex it and it would be just like other neighborhoods.  They don't seem to have the tax base to run a solvent city government without onerous fines and the police department seems to be problematic to say the least.  What is so special about that little enclave that it needs to remain a separate city?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 02:27:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.

Lulz, stop reading directly from the cue cards, derFoxandfriends.  :P

'Fox & Friends' tweet links Eric Holder, shootings of police in Ferguson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/03/12/fox-friends-tweet-links-eric-holder-shootings-of-police-in-ferguson/?tid=trending_strip_1)

I wonder if it was Fox New's intention to see police officers killed after people interested in the Clive Bundy story they kept highlighting went on a rampage.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
In Ferguson's case, just have the city annex it and it would be just like other neighborhoods.  They don't seem to have the tax base to run a solvent city government without onerous fines and the police department seems to be problematic to say the least.  What is so special about that little enclave that it needs to remain a separate city?

I don't think they can legally do that.  St. Louis doesn't exist in a county.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 08:21:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 08:11:42 AM
Well, if you choose to be a part of an evil "elite" bent on oppressing the masses, you should be prepared to face the wrath of the people.

You, of all people, should cheer on this.  :frog:

Nah this kind of thing always leads to a Thermidorian Reaction.  The principles of those calling for oversight and reform of the police will be blamed for this by counter-revolutionary forces.

As with most things, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey. You may end up with a reactionary dictatorship, but you can guillotine a bunch of derspiesses on the way.  :cool:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 02:48:17 PM
What does that have to do with St. Louis annexing Ferguson.  Assuming both parties agree, of course.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
As with most things, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey. You may end up with a reactionary dictatorship, but you can guillotine a bunch of derspiesses on the way.  :cool:

Somehow I don't think the Jacobins were feeling that way in 1795 :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 03:02:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
As with most things, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey. You may end up with a reactionary dictatorship, but you can guillotine a bunch of derspiesses on the way.  :cool:

Somehow I don't think the Jacobins were feeling that way in 1795 :P

Well, yes, but it's the outcome that comes.

That being said, if I sat on a revolutionary tribunal, I would probably end up like de Sade - locked up because I would keep acquitting people. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 12, 2015, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
As with most things, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey. You may end up with a reactionary dictatorship, but you can guillotine a bunch of derspiesses on the way.  :cool:

There are more obvious targets, like yourself, Minsky, Lemonjello, Malthus, Caliga and Mono. :contract:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 03:07:02 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 12, 2015, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
As with most things, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey. You may end up with a reactionary dictatorship, but you can guillotine a bunch of derspiesses on the way.  :cool:

There are more obvious targets, like yourself, Minsky, Lemonjello, Malthus, Caliga and Mono. :contract:

Well he has got you there Marty.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 03:08:38 PM
No shit.  I'm a man of the people.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 03:16:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 02:48:17 PM
What does that have to do with St. Louis annexing Ferguson.  Assuming both parties agree, of course.

Because I don't think St. Louis can take territory from a county.  It should be noted that I don't think that Ferguson actually borders the city.  And really, what's in it for St. Louis?  I also don't think you appreciate how long and difficult it is for for a city to annex an area.  Jefferson City has been trying to annex a small strip of land for 20 years.  And lastly the people in Ferguson live up there so they don't have to live in the city.  The whole St. Louis metro area is a fucking mess.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 03:18:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 12, 2015, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
As with most things, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey. You may end up with a reactionary dictatorship, but you can guillotine a bunch of derspiesses on the way.  :cool:

There are more obvious targets, like yourself, Minsky, Lemonjello, Malthus, Caliga and Mono. :contract:

I would be one of those aristocrats that join the revolution. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 03:34:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 03:16:46 PM
Because I don't think St. Louis can take territory from a county.  It should be noted that I don't think that Ferguson actually borders the city.  And really, what's in it for St. Louis?  I also don't think you appreciate how long and difficult it is for for a city to annex an area.  Jefferson City has been trying to annex a small strip of land for 20 years.  And lastly the people in Ferguson live up there so they don't have to live in the city.  The whole St. Louis metro area is a fucking mess.

Ah.  For some reason I thought Ferguson was totally surrounded by the city limit border of St. Louis.  Looking at a map, the official city limit is way smaller than I thought it was.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 12, 2015, 03:48:43 PM
I see no reason the state government couldn't merge the cities.

I mean, if it isn't viable on it's own, then economies of scale and all that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: lustindarkness on March 12, 2015, 03:53:38 PM
Would nuking it from orbit be a good option?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 12, 2015, 03:53:38 PM
Would nuking it from orbit be a good option?

No. There is another.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: frunk on March 12, 2015, 04:02:19 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 04:01:15 PM
No. There is another.

Do you really think giving the mole people nukes is a good idea?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on March 12, 2015, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 02:23:18 PM
Dallas is a fairly large city with a large tax base.  Ferguson is not.  Also what is the cap that the a Texas city can get from speeding tickets?

Multiple disjoint points:

Not sure what you include in "tax base", but Dallas only gets about 43% of its budget from property taxes.  Also, Dallas may have a large tax base, but they also have large expenses that Ferguson does not because of the size of the city.

In general, the cost of city services scales with physical size and population.  The ratio of population to sworn officers is about the same for Dallas (372) and Ferguson (391).  The ratio is actually worse for Dallas, though, because of the much greater weekday daytime and weekend nighttime population from the surrounding cities.

I don't know if there even is a cap.  My point is that speeding tickets are a rounding error in Dallas' budget and that a city requiring traffic citations for a significant portion of its budget us fundamentally insolvent.

Edit:

Actually, what a city like Ferguson should be forced to do is disband their city police force and rely on county police if they really can't afford an independent force.  Most cities of Ferguson's size in South Florida do not have their own departments.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 04:09:27 PM
Quote from: frunk on March 12, 2015, 04:02:19 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 04:01:15 PM
No. There is another.

Do you really think giving the mole people nukes is a good idea?

People? No.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 04:40:38 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 04:09:27 PM
People? No.

I anticipate killing at least one mole this year.  Killed one in 2013 and another in 2014. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2015, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 03:08:38 PM
No shit.  I'm a man of the people.

Lol, white people
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 04:51:12 PM
Hey now.  I rooted for Holmes HS the other night against the rich white boy school.  That should buy me some anti-raciss credits.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 04:59:58 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on March 12, 2015, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 02:23:18 PM
Dallas is a fairly large city with a large tax base.  Ferguson is not.  Also what is the cap that the a Texas city can get from speeding tickets?

Multiple disjoint points:

Not sure what you include in "tax base", but Dallas only gets about 43% of its budget from property taxes.  Also, Dallas may have a large tax base, but they also have large expenses that Ferguson does not because of the size of the city.

In general, the cost of city services scales with physical size and population.  The ratio of population to sworn officers is about the same for Dallas (372) and Ferguson (391).  The ratio is actually worse for Dallas, though, because of the much greater weekday daytime and weekend nighttime population from the surrounding cities.

I don't know if there even is a cap.  My point is that speeding tickets are a rounding error in Dallas' budget and that a city requiring traffic citations for a significant portion of its budget us fundamentally insolvent.

Edit:

Actually, what a city like Ferguson should be forced to do is disband their city police force and rely on county police if they really can't afford an independent force.  Most cities of Ferguson's size in South Florida do not have their own departments.

Cities don't always scale well. A city with an affluent population and a city with a poor population that are the same size are going to require the same number of police, fire and street employees.   Densely packed urban areas come out a head in taxation compared to a declining suburb.  They can disincorporate the town, (and possibly will), but it'll end up looking like East St. Louis.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on March 12, 2015, 06:05:28 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 04:51:12 PM
Hey now.  I rooted for Holmes HS the other night against the rich white boy school.  That should buy me some anti-raciss credits.

I have an unlimited supply. I fucked a black chick.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 12, 2015, 06:09:08 PM
I used to have a black friend. Back when I had friends.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.
You can't possibly believe this.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on March 12, 2015, 06:12:04 PM
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 12, 2015, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Wow, as if things weren't bad enough in that town.

Wonder if this is what Holder wanted.
You can't possibly believe this.

You haven't been in the US for a while have you.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 04:51:12 PM
Hey now.  I rooted for Holmes HS the other night against the rich white boy school.  That should buy me some anti-raciss credits.

Not really.  Racists have pretty much decided blacks should be the only ones to play sports.  They just cannot help always judge everything on race.  It would be cool to find someplace in society where everybody is not obsessed with race for once.

I know you were kidding though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on March 13, 2015, 12:37:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 04:51:12 PM
Hey now.  I rooted for Holmes HS the other night against the rich white boy school.  That should buy me some anti-raciss credits.

Not really.  Racists have pretty much decided blacks should be the only ones to play sports.  They just cannot help always judge everything on race.  It would be cool to find someplace in society where everybody is not obsessed with race for once.

So that's why NASCAR is so popular in the South.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on March 13, 2015, 06:34:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 04:51:12 PM
Hey now.  I rooted for Holmes HS the other night against the rich white boy school.  That should buy me some anti-raciss credits.

Not really.  Racists have pretty much decided blacks should be the only ones to play sports.  They just cannot help always judge everything on race.  It would be cool to find someplace in society where everybody is not obsessed with race for once.

You really need to take a look in the mirror and realize that those emo pills you are taking are not good for you at all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 13, 2015, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 13, 2015, 06:34:31 AM
You really need to take a look in the mirror and realize that those emo pills you are taking are not good for you at all.

What can I say?  Languish is my outlet.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on March 13, 2015, 07:21:53 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2015, 03:08:38 PM
No shit.  I'm a man of the people.

He's the Man with a Klan. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on March 13, 2015, 07:26:34 AM
I'm not sure Raz is making the best points, but I'm also not sure you can just directly compare Dallas and Ferguson- they're in different states, with different constitutional dos and don'ts of revenue generation, and while I don't know the exact makeup, I imagine Dallas has far more commercial and industrial zoning allowing for more direct revenue streams than Ferguson, which seems to be predominantly residential zoning.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 13, 2015, 07:26:45 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2015, 12:37:39 AM
So that's why NASCAR is so popular in the South.

It is just Formula 1 for people who only like left turns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 13, 2015, 08:50:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
Not really.  Racists have pretty much decided blacks should be the only ones to play sports.  They just cannot help always judge everything on race.  It would be cool to find someplace in society where everybody is not obsessed with race for once.

And of course the WVU commit playing for Holmes may have been what swayed my loyalty :)

QuoteI know you were kidding though.

Then why'd you open your trap :angry:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 13, 2015, 08:51:55 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 13, 2015, 07:26:45 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2015, 12:37:39 AM
So that's why NASCAR is so popular in the South.

It is just Formula 1 for people who only like left turns.

http://www.theonion.com/video/nascar-coach-reveals-winning-strategy-drive-fast,14154/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 13, 2015, 08:55:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2015, 08:50:42 AM
Then why'd you open your trap :angry:

Just saying something that I had been thinking that I decided I needed to say someplace.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on March 13, 2015, 09:04:27 AM
Oh.  Okay :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2015, 09:09:54 AM
Don't you people start walking shit back on derWeiß.  :mad: Creepy ass cracka's gotta get correct, stay correct.  :mad:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 15, 2015, 08:18:12 PM
Police arrested a suspect in the shooting.  Guy claims he was actually shooting a protester he said robbed him rather then the police.  So he's either a really good shot and a bad liar, or a terrible shot and simply stupid.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on March 15, 2015, 08:36:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2015, 09:09:54 AM
Don't you people start walking shit back on derWeiß.  :mad: Creepy ass cracka's gotta get correct, stay correct.  :mad:

:perv:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on March 15, 2015, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2015, 08:18:12 PM
Police arrested a suspect in the shooting.  Guy claims he was actually shooting a protester he said robbed him rather then the police.  So he's either a really good shot and a bad liar, or a terrible shot and simply stupid.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html

:blink:

BTW so relieved the cops both seem like they are going to be ok.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 15, 2015, 10:00:16 PM
Hitting two guys with a pistol at night at 125 yards from a car is not bad.  Maybe he should have joined the army.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on March 15, 2015, 10:12:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2015, 10:00:16 PM
Hitting two guys with a pistol at night at 125 yards from a car is not bad.  Maybe he should have joined the army.

He'd be giviving Siege orders within a year.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2015, 07:27:11 PM
Is it necessary to take someone to the ground and slam their head into the pavement when in the police's own words they're obstructing justice without force? I think not.

Perhaps we should rename this the police brutality megathread?

You can check the photo at the link
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/McAuliffe-UVa-Student-Arrest-Bloody-Face-Investigation-296789631.html
QuotePhoto Shows U.Va. Student With Bloody Face Under Arrest

Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe Wednesday called for an investigation into the arrest of a University of Virginia student shown bloody faced on the ground next to an officer in a photo that's gone viral on social media.

Charlottesville General District Court records show that 20-year-old Martese Johnson was charged with obstruction of justice without force and public swearing or intoxication, both misdemeanors.

Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control agents observed as a licensed establishment in The Corner, a social hub near the U.Va. campus, refused him entry about 12:45 a.m. Wednesday. According to ABC, the agents decided to detain Johnson after questioning him.

"Just before handcuffing him, police took Martese to the ground, striking his head on the pavement and causing him to bleed profusely from the gash on his head," said Johnson's attorneMr. Watkins said. "This morning he received ten stitches at the University of Virginia Medical Center. Fortunately, Martese's physical wounds are beginning to heal."

The agent who made the arrest, listed in court records as J. Miller, said in the arrest report that Johnson "was very agitated and belligerent."

An email to the U.Va. community signed "Concerned Black Students" claims the arrest of Johnson was unprovoked. It includes a photo of Johnson on the ground with blood covering his face and an officer kneeling next to him with his hands on Johnson.

The pictured officer's involvement in the incident is unknown at this time.

McAuliffe's office issued a statement asking state police to investigate the arrest.

"Governor McAuliffe is concerned by the reports of this incident and has asked the Secretary of Public Safety to initiate an independent Virginia State Police investigation into the use of force in this matter," the statement reads. "The Governor's office has been in contact with University of Virginia President Teresa Sullivan and local law enforcement and will continue to monitor this situation closely as the investigation proceeds."

ABC said it will provide any assistance state police need in the investigation. The special agents involved are restricted to administrative duties during the investigation.

Johnson, a third-year student, is double-majoring in Italian and media studies. He is vice chair for Community Relations of the Honor Committee, vice polemarch of the Eta Sigma chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi and a chair of the Leadership Development Committee of the Black Student Alliance.

Watkins described him as "absolutely devastated" by the incident.

A march from the Rotunda on campus to the police station was planned for 8 p.m. ET Wednesday. The hashtag #JusticeForMartese is trending on Twitter in Washington.


ABC agents in Charlottesville have been accused of heavy-handed actions in the past.

The state of Virginia reached a $212,500 settlement last year with a UVA student who was arrested after her purchase of water was mistaken for beer.

Elizabeth Daly fled in terror outside a Charlottesville supermarket in April 2013 when her vehicle was swarmed by state ABC agents who mistook her just-purchased carton of sparkling water for beer.

Daly was charged with eluding police and assaulting a police officer after her SUV grazed two of the agents. The arrest provoked a public outcry, and the charges were dropped.

Statement From Martese Johnson's Attorney:

On March 18, 2015, Charlottesville Police charged 20-year old Martese Johnson with two misdemeanors: 1) obstruction of justice without force and 2) profane swearing and/or intoxication in public. The charges were filed after a Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) officer and local police confronted Mr. Johnson near "the Corner," a popular off-campus social hub near the University of Virginia. Contrary to early police reports, Mr. Johnson has not been accused of possessing false identification.

"Just before handcuffing him, police took Martese to the ground, striking his head on the pavement and causing him to bleed profusely from the gash on his head," Mr. Watkins said. "This morning he received ten stitches at the University of Virginia Medical Center. Fortunately, Martese's physical wounds are beginning to heal."

Mr. Johnson is a third-year student at the University of Virginia, double majoring in Italian and Media Studies. He holds numerous leadership positions on grounds, including Vice Chair for Community Relations of the Honor Committee, Vice Polemarch of the Eta Sigma Chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi, and a Chair of the Leadership Development Committee of the Black Student Alliance. He has no criminal record.

"As evidenced by both his academic and extracurricular achievements, Martese is a smart young man with a bright future," Mr. Watkins said. "I have spoken with him several times today, and he is absolutely devastated by yesterday's events. Currently, we are preparing to investigate and defend this matter vigorously. Please keep Martese in your prayers during this difficult time."

Mr. Johnson and his family ask that the media respect his privacy at this time and direct any further questions to his attorney, Daniel Watkins, with Williams Mullen. The investigation is still in its early stages, and Mr. Watkins and Williams Mullen are limited in what information can be shared with the media.

Virginia ABC's Complete Statement:

While monitoring licensed establishments on University Avenue in the City of Charlottesville, uniformed Virginia ABC special agents arrested a 20-year-old male early on the morning of March 18.

The individual was charged with Public Intoxication and Obstruction of Justice in an incident that occurred at approximately 12:45 a.m. on March 18 in the 1500 block of University Avenue. The uniformed ABC Agents observed and approached the individual after he was refused entry to a licensed establishment. A determination was made by the agents to further detain the individual based on their observations and further questioning.

In the course of an arrest being made, the arrested individual sustained injuries. The individual received treatment for his injuries at a local hospital and was released.

Governor McAuliffe has requested that Virginia State Police conduct an independent investigation into the circumstances of the arrest, including use of force. Virginia ABC will provide whatever information or assistance is requested by Virginia State Police.

Virginia ABC is restricting the Special Agents involved in the incident to administrative duties while the investigation is underway.

U.Va. President Teresa Sullivan sent the following email to the school community Wednesday:

Dear Students, Faculty and Staff:

I write to express my deep concern about an incident that occurred on The Corner early this morning and to provide information about immediate steps that I have taken in response.

At about 12:45 a.m., one of our students was injured while Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) agents were attempting to take him into custody on the sidewalk in front of Trinity Irish Pub. University Police and Charlottesville Police arrived on the scene shortly after the incident occurred. We have not yet clarified all of the details surrounding this event, but we are seeking to do so as quickly as possible.

This morning I met with Charlottesville Police Chief Tim Longo and University Police Chief Mike Gibson in an effort to learn more about the incident. Furthermore, because ABC is a state agency, I contacted the Governor's office to ask for an independent investigation of the incident. In response, the Governor has asked the Secretary of Public Safety to initiate an independent Virginia State Police investigation into the use of force in this matter.

As the investigation unfolds, eyewitnesses will play an essential role in shedding light on the details of this incident. I urge students and other members of our community who witnessed the incident or have other direct knowledge of it to come forward. Please contact the Virginia State Police at 804-674-2000 immediately.

The safety and security of our students will always be my primary concern, and every member of our community should feel safe from the threat of bodily harm and other forms of violence. Today, as U.Va. students, faculty, and staff who share a set of deeply held values, we stand unified in our commitment to seeking the truth about this incident. And we stand united in our belief that equal treatment and equal justice are among our fundamental rights under the law.

Teresa A. Sullivan
President
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on March 18, 2015, 07:59:04 PM
If he was drunk, is there any evidence that he didn't just fall down.  Drunks do that on occasion, you know.

If they did slam him to the ground, and he wasn't resisting, yeah, sounds like excessive force to me.  At the very least, it's appropriate to investigate.

Not sure that the governor needs to get personally involved, though.  Sounds like political grandstanding to me.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on March 19, 2015, 12:18:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2015, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2015, 08:18:12 PM
Police arrested a suspect in the shooting.  Guy claims he was actually shooting a protester he said robbed him rather then the police.  So he's either a really good shot and a bad liar, or a terrible shot and simply stupid.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html)

:blink:

BTW so relieved the cops both seem like they are going to be ok.

Well he changed his story, saying that he only shot in the air (which I guess is technically true to a certain point).  He's claiming that his earlier stupid confession was coerced.  I image they have a camera recording his interrogation, so we'll likely see if that's true or not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on March 19, 2015, 04:09:18 AM
Quote from: dps on March 18, 2015, 07:59:04 PM
Not sure that the governor needs to get personally involved, though.  Sounds like political grandstanding to me.

That and/or he doesn't want to become part of the enabling 'terrible' police narrative.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 31, 2015, 01:19:57 AM
A good veto, and while his reasons are not bad ones, there were much better reasons to veto it.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-governor-vetoes-bill-keep-police-names-secret-after-shootings-n332931

Quote
Arizona Governor Vetoes Bill That Would Keep Police Names Secret After Shootings

Acknowledging that he was torn "as the son of a cop," Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey vetoed a bill Monday that would have kept the names of officers who use deadly force secret for 60 days.

State senators passed the bill last week, saying it would protect officers from threats and harassment. Ducey — a Republican whose father was a 12-year veteran of the Toledo, Ohio, Police Department — wrote in a veto letter that he had strong sympathy for that position, lamenting that "in an era of social media and 24-hour news commentary, these officers and their families have been subjected to public scorn, harassment and vicious attacks."

But Ducey said the "unintended consequences" of shielding officers in such sensitive cases outweighed the benefits.

"The wrong officer's name could circulate. Speculation replaces fact. It's very easy to see news outlets running with information that is unconfirmed or erroneous, and under this proposed law, police chiefs' hands would be tied and they would have no way to respond or set the record straight," he wrote. "The result could be the exact opposite of what this bill aims to do, escalating — rather than de-escalating — the situation and potentially putting completely innocent officers' reputations and safety on the line."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on April 07, 2015, 06:56:09 PM
Quote

White SC officer charged with murder for shooting black man
Associated Press By BRUCE SMITH

CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — A white South Carolina police officer was charged with murder Tuesday in the weekend shooting death of a black motorist after a traffic stop.

City Patrolman Michael Thomas Slager was arrested and charged after law enforcement officials saw a video of the shooting following a Saturday traffic stop, North Charleston Mayor Keith Summey told a hastily called news conference.

Authorities say the victim, 50-year-old Walter Lamer Scott of Charleston, was shot after the officer already hit him with a stun gun. A video of the shooting released to news media outlets shows the officer firing several times at the man's back while he's running away.

Summey said at a news conference that Slager made a "bad decision."

"When you're wrong, you're wrong," Summey said. "When you make a bad decision, don't care if you're behind the shield or a citizen on the street, you have to live with that decision."

Slager's attorney had released a statement Monday saying the officer felt threatened and that the motorist was trying to grab the officer's stun gun. The attorney told The Post and Courier of Charleston on Tuesday that he no longer represents the officer.

North Charleston Police said Slager was arrested by officers of the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division.

The shooting occurred as heightened scrutiny is being placed on police officer shootings, particularly those that involve white officers and unarmed black suspects. A grand jury declined to indict Ferguson, Missouri, officer Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown last August, leading to nationwide protests.

In a separate case in South Carolina, a white police officer who shot a 68-year-old black man to death last year in his driveway was charged Tuesday with a felony: discharging a gun into an occupied vehicle. A prosecutor previously tried to indict North Augusta officer Justin Craven on a manslaughter charge in the February 2014 death of Ernest Satterwhite. But a grand jury instead chose misconduct in office, which is a far lesser charge.

Craven chased Satterwhite for 9 miles beyond city limits to the man's driveway in Edgefield County. After Satterwhite parked, the officer repeatedly fired through the driver-side door, prosecutors said. The 25-year-old officer faces up to 10 years in prison if convicted of the gun charge.

Title: South Carolina police officer charged with murder
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 07, 2015, 06:56:59 PM
The sooner all police are camera'd up, the better.

EDIT: Fucking ninjad! <_<
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/07/us/south-carolina-officer-charged-murder/

QuoteSouth Carolina police officer charged with murder

By Dana Ford, CNN

Updated 0044 GMT (0744 HKT) April 8, 2015

(CNN)—A South Carolina officer has been charged with murder after a video surfaced that appears to show him shooting an unarmed man who was running away.

Michael Slager, an officer with the North Charleston Police Department, was arrested Tuesday, according to a statement from the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, or SLED. If found guilty of murder, he could face up to life in prison or death.

The shooting took place Saturday after a traffic stop, SLED said. Video obtained by The New York Times shows what happened.

A black man breaks away from the white officer. Something falls, and the officer fires eight shots at the man as he runs away. The man, who appears to be unarmed, drops to the ground.

"I can tell you that as the result of that video and the bad decision made by our officer, he will be charged with murder," North Charleston Mayor Keith Summey told reporters Tuesday. "When you're wrong, you're wrong. And if you make a bad decision -- don't care if you're behind the shield or just a citizen on the street -- you have to live by that decision."

CNN affiliate WCIV identified the victim as 50-year-old Walter Scott. His family spoke to WCIV over the weekend, before the officer was arrested, describing Scott as a good man who was about to be married.

"All we want is the truth, and we'll go any length to get that so that my brother can rest in peace," Anthony Scott told the affiliate.

According to WCIV, Slager initially said through his attorney, David Aylor, that he followed the appropriate policies and procedures. Aylor later told CNN that he no longer represents the officer, and it was unclear whether Slager had obtained new representation.

The Justice Department released a statement Tuesday saying it would "take appropriate action in light of the evidence and developments in the state case."

"The South Carolina Office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation has opened an investigation concurrent with the S.C. Law Enforcement Division and are providing aid as necessary to the state investigation. The Department of Justice Civil Rights Division and the South Carolina U.S. Attorney's Office will work with the FBI in the investigation," it read.

North Charleston Police Chief Eddie Driggers, who spoke to CNN's "Erin Burnett OutFront," described the shooting as tragic.

He said the incident began when the officer stopped Scott for driving with a brake light being out.

When asked whether he thought race played a role in what happened, Driggers did not rule it out.

"I want to believe in my heart of hearts that it was a tragic set of events after a traffic stop," Driggers said. "I always look for the good in folks, and so I would hope that nobody would ever do something like that."

CNN's Chandler Friedman and Evan Perez contributed to this report.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 07:01:10 PM
The one thing that amazes me about most of these cop shootings is how brazen the lying by cops is.  It makes you wonder how often the justice gets completely perverted, because there is no camera around, so the cops and their partners can come up with fantastical stories that no one is around to dispute.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on April 07, 2015, 07:02:26 PM
Wonder why the dude was running from the po-po?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on April 07, 2015, 07:13:00 PM

Vineland Police Allow Dog to Maul Black Man Phillip White to Death - New Jersey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lonwenKVEv0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lonwenKVEv0)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on April 07, 2015, 07:15:33 PM
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/04/07/anonymous-threatens-vineland-police-over-phillip-whites-death/ (http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/04/07/anonymous-threatens-vineland-police-over-phillip-whites-death/)

Quote

One week after 32-year-old Vineland man Phillip White died in police custody, a YouTube page associated with the hacker group Anonymous has threatened to expose the officers involved with the arrest and also to reveal other details about the incident.

"On March 31st, 2015, Vineland City, New Jersey, police arrested Phillip White," says the masked person in the video. "And while handcuffed, White was brutally beaten by members of the Vineland City Police Department ... Officers kicked, punched and stomped on Phillip White until he was unconscious ... A canine officer released a dog and allowed the dog to bite Phillip in his face, head and body. This is absolute grotesque behavior ..."

The group is threatening to release the names and personal information of members of the Vineland Police Department and the Cumberland County Prosecutor's Office on an hourly basis until its demands are met. The group wants the authorities to release the names of the three police officers involved in White's arrest as well as any dashboard camera footage.

Police had been dispatched to the 100 block of Grape Street in Vineland on March 31st to respond to a call about a disorderly person. There, they encountered White, and things turned violent and ended with White dying a short time later.

Witnesses told NBC 10 that they saw police punching White and a dog biting him, and NBC 10 also obtained partial video of the incident. Attorneys for the police say that White was acting erratically and that he grabbed for one of their guns.

The demand video was published on YouTube on Monday by user AnonDad NOWsec, a relative newcomer to the Anonymous fold.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on April 08, 2015, 06:03:39 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 07:01:10 PM
The one thing that amazes me about most of these cop shootings is how brazen the lying by cops is.  It makes you wonder how often the justice gets completely perverted, because there is no camera around, so the cops and their partners can come up with fantastical stories that no one is around to dispute.

All the time. Cops are assholes.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Liep on April 08, 2015, 06:18:54 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 08, 2015, 06:03:39 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 07:01:10 PM
The one thing that amazes me about most of these cop shootings is how brazen the lying by cops is.  It makes you wonder how often the justice gets completely perverted, because there is no camera around, so the cops and their partners can come up with fantastical stories that no one is around to dispute.

All the time. Cops are assholes.

I wonder if American cops are much different than Danish/European cops. I've met a fair few through work and they've all been very nice (one was a bit incompetent though, but he was new).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on April 08, 2015, 06:26:36 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 08, 2015, 06:03:39 AM
All the time. Cops are assholes.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 08, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 08, 2015, 06:03:39 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 07:01:10 PM
The one thing that amazes me about most of these cop shootings is how brazen the lying by cops is.  It makes you wonder how often the justice gets completely perverted, because there is no camera around, so the cops and their partners can come up with fantastical stories that no one is around to dispute.

All the time. Cops are assholes.

Well, your cops are Quebecois, so, yeah, assholes.

Not all cops everywhere are Grallon, though.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Warspite on April 08, 2015, 07:14:48 AM
American cops seem to work in a much more hostile environment. Whatever the state of race relations between the Metropolitan Police here in London and the city's different communities, the police are not getting shot at. Whereas I appreciate this is rather more a risk in the US context.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on April 08, 2015, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Warspite on April 08, 2015, 07:14:48 AM
American cops seem to work in a much more hostile environment. Whatever the state of race relations between the Metropolitan Police here in London and the city's different communities, the police are not getting shot at. Whereas I appreciate this is rather more a risk in the US context.

That's probably too broad a generalization.  It's certainly true in some places, but in others, being a cop is probably not statistically much more dangerous than being a file clerk.

Also, this is another issue where the relative decentralization and sheer scale of the US compared to European countries comes into play.  I don't know the exact count, but I'd guess that the US has something on the order of 50,000 police departments, plus a large number of other agencies whose officers aren't considered police per se, but who have some type of law-enforcement mission (game wardens, border guards, etc).  Some of those are 1 or 2 person departments, but some are quite large.  You get that many organizations employing that many personnel, you're going to get some assholes, regardless of the type of work.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 08, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 09:48:34 AM
You get that many organizations employing that many personnel, you're going to get some assholes, regardless of the type of work.

True.  I have run into a bigger percentage of assholes from the phone company than from the police department.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:00:35 AM
Quote from: citizen k on April 07, 2015, 07:15:33 PM
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/04/07/anonymous-threatens-vineland-police-over-phillip-whites-death/ (http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/04/07/anonymous-threatens-vineland-police-over-phillip-whites-death/)

Quote

One week after 32-year-old Vineland man Phillip White died in police custody, a YouTube page associated with the hacker group Anonymous has threatened to expose the officers involved with the arrest and also to reveal other details about the incident.

"On March 31st, 2015, Vineland City, New Jersey, police arrested Phillip White," says the masked person in the video. "And while handcuffed, White was brutally beaten by members of the Vineland City Police Department ... Officers kicked, punched and stomped on Phillip White until he was unconscious ... A canine officer released a dog and allowed the dog to bite Phillip in his face, head and body. This is absolute grotesque behavior ..."

The group is threatening to release the names and personal information of members of the Vineland Police Department and the Cumberland County Prosecutor's Office on an hourly basis until its demands are met. The group wants the authorities to release the names of the three police officers involved in White's arrest as well as any dashboard camera footage.

Police had been dispatched to the 100 block of Grape Street in Vineland on March 31st to respond to a call about a disorderly person. There, they encountered White, and things turned violent and ended with White dying a short time later.

Witnesses told NBC 10 that they saw police punching White and a dog biting him, and NBC 10 also obtained partial video of the incident. Attorneys for the police say that White was acting erratically and that he grabbed for one of their guns.

The demand video was published on YouTube on Monday by user AnonDad NOWsec, a relative newcomer to the Anonymous fold.

At least for once the victim was White.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:03:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 08, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 09:48:34 AM
You get that many organizations employing that many personnel, you're going to get some assholes, regardless of the type of work.

True.  I have run into a bigger percentage of assholes from the phone company than from the police department.

The only difference is that phone company assholes rarely are in a position of life and death over people - so the standard can be more lax.

You are like those people who excuse the Catholic church's pedophilia scandals by saying that the percentage of pedophiles among priests working with children is not higher than among any other profession - but that is not very helpful. In certain professions you should screen out certain personality types more vigorously, whether it is insane suicidal pilots, pedophile priests and teachers or murderous asshole cops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:07:26 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 07, 2015, 07:02:26 PM
Wonder why the dude was running from the po-po?

Seems he had unpaid alimonies, which is a jail-time offense in that state.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:07:26 AM
Seems he had unpaid alimonies, which is a jail-time offense in that state.

FYI, alimony is a little different than child support, and you don't pluralize it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 10:32:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:07:26 AM
Seems he had unpaid alimonies, which is a jail-time offense in that state.

FYI, alimony is a little different than child support, and you don't pluralize it.

Boom.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 11:33:23 AM
Thanks for letting me know. :P
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 08, 2015, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:07:26 AM
Seems he had unpaid alimonies, which is a jail-time offense in that state.

FYI, alimony is a little different than child support, and you don't pluralize it.

I am not sure any of this information will be relevant to Martinus for any purpose.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 08, 2015, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 08, 2015, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:07:26 AM
Seems he had unpaid alimonies, which is a jail-time offense in that state.

FYI, alimony is a little different than child support, and you don't pluralize it.

I am not sure any of this information will be relevant to Martinus for any purpose.
You don't pluralize palimony, either.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 04:36:28 PM
A few weeks old but I just now saw it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/03/16/lesson-learned-from-the-shooting-of-michael-brown/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 08, 2015, 05:01:12 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 08, 2015, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 08, 2015, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 10:07:26 AM
Seems he had unpaid alimonies, which is a jail-time offense in that state.

FYI, alimony is a little different than child support, and you don't pluralize it.

I am not sure any of this information will be relevant to Martinus for any purpose.
You don't pluralize palimony, either.

I have to admit, that was pretty good.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Zanza on April 09, 2015, 12:30:59 AM
Just read that the North Charlestown officer had just nine weeks of training. Average in the US is 18 weeks, NYC for example has 28 weeks.
Even that seems short to me from my Euro perspective. Two friends of mine are police officers and their training phase was 2.5 to 3 years. Not sure if it's always that long, but I am sure it's always more than a year here.
That leaves me wondering if the officer in North Charlestown was qualified for his job.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: alfred russel on April 09, 2015, 12:53:45 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 09, 2015, 12:30:59 AM

That leaves me wondering if the officer in North Charlestown was qualified for his job.

Signs are beginning to mount that he may not have been.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 06:31:40 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 09, 2015, 12:30:59 AM
Just read that the North Charlestown officer had just nine weeks of training. Average in the US is 18 weeks, NYC for example has 28 weeks.
Even that seems short to me from my Euro perspective. Two friends of mine are police officers and their training phase was 2.5 to 3 years. Not sure if it's always that long, but I am sure it's always more than a year here.
That leaves me wondering if the officer in North Charlestown was qualified for his job.

I think that you are mixing a few things here.  Training isn't the same thing as probation; I can be pretty sure that your friends were not in training (i.e. at an academy and unavailable for police work) for 2.5 to 3 years.  That's featherbedding far beyond what even Euros would tolerate.  I'm pretty sure that they meant that they were in training and on probation as police for 2.5 to 3 years.  That's pretty typical in the US as well; LAPD officers have 6 months of training and 2 years as probationary officers.

This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 06:53:22 AM
No, Zanza has it correct. Training time for Police officers in Germany ranges from 2 to 3 years, with the exact duration depending on state and branch of service. Training includes - among others - courses in the relevant areas of law (like criminal, procedural, constitutional), social sciences, communication and deescalation, statistics, criminology, sports, weapon use and so on. For the higher services, an additional University degree may be demanded.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 06:54:44 AM
sports? :hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on April 09, 2015, 06:59:13 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 06:54:44 AM
sports? :hmm:

"Water" sports. Germans are into that stuff ya know.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2015, 07:55:53 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 06:54:44 AM
sports? :hmm:

I presume that is some sort of fitness training. Either that or this is how they scout for the German National Team.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: HVC on April 09, 2015, 08:24:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2015, 07:55:53 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 06:54:44 AM
sports? :hmm:

I presume that is some sort of fitness training. Either that or this is how they scout for the German National Team.
hooligan patrol training is my first guess
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on April 09, 2015, 08:49:01 AM
I like the title of this article.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/the-police-are-americas-terrorists-1696463523/+gabriellebluestone
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 06:53:22 AM
No, Zanza has it correct. Training time for Police officers in Germany ranges from 2 to 3 years, with the exact duration depending on state and branch of service. Training includes - among others - courses in the relevant areas of law (like criminal, procedural, constitutional), social sciences, communication and deescalation, statistics, criminology, sports, weapon use and so on. For the higher services, an additional University degree may be demanded.

So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 06:31:40 AM
This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.
Experience doesn't replace training, especially not for once-in-a-lifetime situations.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 09:54:42 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 06:31:40 AM
This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.
Experience doesn't replace training, especially not for once-in-a-lifetime situations.

Experience replaces five-year-old training, no matter how long it was or how many times in a lifetime the situation is expected to occur.

Recent training beats experience (except experience in the situation being considered), but that's not in the cards here.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 09:36:09 AM
So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?

No, in addition to academy training you also get practical time. IIRC initially as an observer and aide to a regular two man team, later possibly as second man to an experienced officer. To the best of my knowledge, trainees are not issued a gun until passing their final exams.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 10:20:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 06:53:22 AM
No, Zanza has it correct. Training time for Police officers in Germany ranges from 2 to 3 years, with the exact duration depending on state and branch of service. Training includes - among others - courses in the relevant areas of law (like criminal, procedural, constitutional), social sciences, communication and deescalation, statistics, criminology, sports, weapon use and so on. For the higher services, an additional University degree may be demanded.

So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?

With guns? Almost certainly.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:22:56 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 09:36:09 AM
So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?

No, in addition to academy training you also get practical time. IIRC initially as an observer and aide to a regular two man team, later possibly as second man to an experienced officer. To the best of my knowledge, trainees are not issued a gun until passing their final exams.

Okay, then my statement was correct.  I thought so.  What the Germans call "practical time" is what the US police call "probation."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 10:28:48 AM
In the US, are cops "on probation" issued guns/deadly weapons?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 10:30:34 AM
What do you think Mart?  It's America. :)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 10:30:34 AM
What do you think Mart?  It's America. :)

If the answer is yes, then the situation is ENTIRELY opposite to what grumbler is claiming. In such case, while grumbler claim is "correct" on a technicality, it is completely false in the context in which the original claim was made (i.e. that unprepared cops are issued with guns/lethal weapons, whereas their training in Europe before they are given access to deadly weapons takes much more time).

Of course I should be used by now to grumbler's constant intellectual dishonesty, but it is still grating.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 10:28:48 AM
In the US, are cops "on probation" issued guns/deadly weapons?

Yes.  And they do dumb things with them, like accidentally killing dudes in stairwells. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/akai-gurley-nypd-officer-indicted-police-shooting-stairwell-unarmed-man-291429301.html (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/akai-gurley-nypd-officer-indicted-police-shooting-stairwell-unarmed-man-291429301.html)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 06:31:40 AM
This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.

It is only moot it one assumes that he continued to learn proper practices and procedures while on the job. 


Quote
Experience replaces five-year-old training, no matter how long it was or how many times in a lifetime the situation is expected to occur.

Recent training beats experience (except experience in the situation being considered), but that's not in the cards here.

Only if one assumes that the "experience" allowed the officer to continue to learn proper practices and procedures.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 09, 2015, 10:35:09 AM
Euros are generally wusses on armed cops in the first place, though.  We don't have that luxury.  Over here an unarmed cop on patrol would mean a dead cop.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 10:36:29 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:22:56 AM
Okay, then my statement was correct.  I thought so.  What the Germans call "practical time" is what the US police call "probation."

Honest question, since english is not my native language and I am not really accustomed with the training of US police officers:

Does probation not mean that your training has finished? For german officers, practical time would only be a small part of their training period to compliment theory with insights into everyday work. Courses would continue throughout your 2 to 3 years of academy time. The actual probation period (Probezeit) then starts after the final exam and lasts for another three years.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 10:37:48 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2015, 10:35:09 AM
Euros are generally wusses on armed cops in the first place, though.  We don't have that luxury.  Over here an unarmed cop on patrol would mean a dead cop.

The shock of having an appendage removed from their body?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 09, 2015, 10:39:17 AM
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 10:30:34 AM
What do you think Mart?  It's America. :)

If the answer is yes, then the situation is ENTIRELY opposite identical to what grumbler is claiming. 

Fixed that for you.  I don't know what wild hair you have up your ass today, but I merely noted that many US cops, like Euro cops, undergo academy training for six months, and then serve a further training and evaluation period of several years while on the job.

The argument that these identical descriptions are opposite is a typical bit of Marti intellectual dishonesty.

QuoteIn such case, while grumbler claim is "correct" on a technicality, it is completely false in the context in which the original claim was made (i.e. that unprepared cops are issued with guns/lethal weapons, whereas their training in Europe before they are given access to deadly weapons takes much more time).

Wait... so i am right, even when you say that the cases are "opposite..."  Not only are you dishonest, you are confused about what lie you are telling.  The issue I responded to was about how long the "training phase" for a police officer lasted.   Neither I nor anyone else said a word about "unprepared cops are issued with guns/lethal weapons" - this is a lie you made up for this post.

QuoteOf course I should be used by now to grumbler's constant intellectual dishonesty superiority, but it is still grating.

Corrected that lie for you, as well.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
Grumbles, if you the one proclaiming your own superiority it probably means the opposite. ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:54:57 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 10:36:29 AM
Honest question, since english is not my native language and I am not really accustomed with the training of US police officers:

Does probation not mean that your training has finished? For german officers, practical time would only be a small part of their training period to compliment theory with insights into everyday work. Courses would continue throughout your 2 to 3 years of academy time. The actual probation period (Probezeit) then starts after the final exam and lasts for another three years.

Probation doesn't mean that your training has finished.  It means that training has shifted from the classroom to on the job.  Probationary officers have supervisory officers assigned to them, responsible for their on-the-job training and often partnered with them (though many police departments allow probies to patrol alone if their officers are not normally paired up).

The extent to which probies actually get training depends on a lot of local factors, though.  it is considered a training period, though, and failure to master the training will result in job loss without compensation, just like failing a course in the academy.

If German officers actually stay in the Academy for two or three years (I can't find anything that confirms that - the sources i can find say 6 months, but that could just be me not being able to find the real details in English - and then serve an additional three years before they are actual full-fledged police officers, I'd have to wonder how long they serve.  If they come into the academy after college-equivelence, they graduate from the academy at 23 or 24, serve as a probie until 27, and then start to lose the physical abilities to be a cop around 45.  That doesn't leave a lot of time to actually serve as a cop, and means that a given police force is like 1/3 recruits or probies.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, or maybe the German police can afford to have enough officers to afford to be 1/4 to 1/3 in training status at any given time.  We certainly don't hear stories about German police departments funding themselves through bogus traffic stops.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:57:24 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
Grumbles, if you the one proclaiming your own superiority it probably means the opposite. ;)

cRazy, you might want to get your humor meter checked.  If you even have one.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Here is another question about the South Carolina shooting:  what about the second cop on the scene?  Slager just casually walks over and plants his stun gun on the dead guy, and the other cop doesn't seem to flinch or do anything about it.  Given the police report that came out after the shooting but before the video, it's probably safe to assume that the other cop didn't rat Slager out. 

That to me is the real problem in all of this.  Bad shootings will always happen in US, there are too many guns out there, but police omerta that we see time and again is what is really destroying the relations between civilians and cops.  The cops that keep mum and maintain conspiracy against the public are almost as bad as the cops that do the shooting.  At least shootings happen in a matter of seconds, while the cover-ups are premeditated.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:15:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:57:24 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
Grumbles, if you the one proclaiming your own superiority it probably means the opposite. ;)

cRazy, you might want to get your humor meter checked.  If you even have one.

If your exchanges with Marti are what you think passes for humor then that explains a lot.  Given that context you are hilarious.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Here is another question about the South Carolina shooting:  what about the second cop on the scene?  Slager just casually walks over and plants his stun gun on the dead guy, and the other cop doesn't seem to flinch or do anything about it.  Given the police report that came out after the shooting but before the video, it's probably safe to assume that the other cop didn't rat Slager out. 

I saw the video of Slager picking up his taser from next to the dead dude, but not planting it.  Do you have a link to that video?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:20:44 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Here is another question about the South Carolina shooting:  what about the second cop on the scene?  Slager just casually walks over and plants his stun gun on the dead guy, and the other cop doesn't seem to flinch or do anything about it.  Given the police report that came out after the shooting but before the video, it's probably safe to assume that the other cop didn't rat Slager out. 

I saw the video of Slager picking up his taser from next to the dead dude, but not planting it.  Do you have a link to that video?
It's the same video, you're just seeing different things.  In the video, Slager picks up the stun gun from where he was standing when he was shooting, and walks over to the dead guy and drops it next to him.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 11:22:37 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:20:44 AM
It's the same video, you're just seeing different things.  In the video, Slager picks up the stun gun from where he was standing when he was shooting, and walks over to the dead guy and drops it next to him.

And I didn't see the part where he drops it next to the dead dude.  I saw the part where he picks it up and holsters it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:26:46 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Here is another question about the South Carolina shooting:  what about the second cop on the scene?  Slager just casually walks over and plants his stun gun on the dead guy, and the other cop doesn't seem to flinch or do anything about it.  Given the police report that came out after the shooting but before the video, it's probably safe to assume that the other cop didn't rat Slager out. 

That to me is the real problem in all of this.  Bad shootings will always happen in US, there are too many guns out there, but police omerta that we see time and again is what is really destroying the relations between civilians and cops.  The cops that keep mum and maintain conspiracy against the public are almost as bad as the cops that do the shooting.  At least shootings happen in a matter of seconds, while the cover-ups are premeditated.

Its a good point.  We had the same thing happen here when RCMP officers at the Vancouver airport killed a Polish tourist coming to visit his mother.  All four of the officers stated that the Polish guy attacked them.  Thankfully, another passenger videod the whole thing and it was clear that the account given by the officers was false.  What is more disturbing is that the passenger had given his video to the RCMP shortly after the incident and even with that video in their possession the RCMP came to the conclusion that the officers had done nothing wrong.  The video only came to light during an inquiry into the incident.  At least one of the officers has now been convicted of perjury for the testimony he gave at that Inquiry.

That event was one of the catalysts to this jurisdiction putting an end to the practice of police investigating police.  We now do it through the offices of a civilian investigation unit whose only task is to investigate all incidents where injury or death occurs when police are involved.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 11:27:47 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Here is another question about the South Carolina shooting:  what about the second cop on the scene?  Slager just casually walks over and plants his stun gun on the dead guy, and the other cop doesn't seem to flinch or do anything about it.  Given the police report that came out after the shooting but before the video, it's probably safe to assume that the other cop didn't rat Slager out. 

That to me is the real problem in all of this.  Bad shootings will always happen in US, there are too many guns out there, but police omerta that we see time and again is what is really destroying the relations between civilians and cops.  The cops that keep mum and maintain conspiracy against the public are almost as bad as the cops that do the shooting.  At least shootings happen in a matter of seconds, while the cover-ups are premeditated.

I think that this is a good point.  Nothing destroys the ability of police to operate effectively against the bad guys as the loss of public support, and nothing ruins public support faster than the police siding with criminals (whether in uniform or not) against the public.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Zanza on April 09, 2015, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 10:54:57 AM
If they come into the academy after college-equivelence,
That's a difference in American and German tertiary education. They would go from high school to the police academy directly. The police academies will often give them something that may be comparable to your community college degrees. So by the time they are done with police academy, they would be like 21.

Quoteand then start to lose the physical abilities to be a cop around 45.
Hmm, not sure. You see older cops here. Not in all tasks of course (i.e. not in riot police), but also not limited to desk jobs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:31:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:26:46 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Here is another question about the South Carolina shooting:  what about the second cop on the scene?  Slager just casually walks over and plants his stun gun on the dead guy, and the other cop doesn't seem to flinch or do anything about it.  Given the police report that came out after the shooting but before the video, it's probably safe to assume that the other cop didn't rat Slager out. 

That to me is the real problem in all of this.  Bad shootings will always happen in US, there are too many guns out there, but police omerta that we see time and again is what is really destroying the relations between civilians and cops.  The cops that keep mum and maintain conspiracy against the public are almost as bad as the cops that do the shooting.  At least shootings happen in a matter of seconds, while the cover-ups are premeditated.

Its a good point.  We had the same thing happen here when RCMP officers at the Vancouver airport killed a Polish tourist coming to visit his mother.  All four of the officers stated that the Polish guy attacked them.  Thankfully, another passenger videod the whole thing and it was clear that the account given by the officers was false.  What is more disturbing is that the passenger had given his video to the RCMP shortly after the incident and even with that video in their possession the RCMP came to the conclusion that the officers had done nothing wrong.  The video only came to light during an inquiry into the incident.  At least one of the officers has now been convicted of perjury for the testimony he gave at that Inquiry.

That event was one of the catalysts to this jurisdiction putting an end to the practice of police investigating police.  We now do it through the offices of a civilian investigation unit whose only task is to investigate all incidents where injury or death occurs when police are involved.

This is going far afield, but everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable.  In hindsight it wasn't perfect, but their actions were justifiable.

What sank the cop however wasn't tasering the dude, but lying about it - hence the perjury conviction.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on April 09, 2015, 11:35:19 AM
Is there any statistics out there about the number of fatal shootings by cops in different countries, per population?

I certainly get the impression it happens a lot more in the US than anywhere else in the 1st world, but have no actual figures to back that up with.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Zanza on April 09, 2015, 11:38:11 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 09, 2015, 11:35:19 AM
Is there any statistics out there about the number of fatal shootings by cops in different countries, per population?

I certainly get the impression it happens a lot more in the US than anywhere else in the 1st world, but have no actual figures to back that up with.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/11/11662345-german-police-fired-just-85-bullets-total-in-2011
QuoteGerman police fired just 85 bullets total in 2011
German police officers fired a total of 85 bullets in 2011, 49 of which were warning shots, the German publication Der Spiegel reported. Officers fired 36 times at people, killing six and injuring 15. This is a slight decline from 2010, when seven people were killed and 17 injured. Ninety-six shots were fired in 2010.
Guess there wasn't that much change in the last years.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2015, 11:44:10 AM
21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:31:30 AM
This is going far afield, but everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable.  In hindsight it wasn't perfect, but their actions were justifiable.


I have not idea how one might conclude that.  Did you read or hear about the findings of Mr. Justice Braidwood?

Quote"I found that Mr. Dziekanski had been compliant and was not defiant or resistant, did not brandish the stapler, did not move towards any of the officers," he said.

"I concluded that the constable was not justified in deploying the weapon and that neither the constable nor the corporal honestly perceived that Mr. Dziekanski was intending to attack any of the officers," he said.

Officers misrepresented actions

Braidwood concluded the officers later deliberately misrepresented what happened at the airport to justify their actions.

"I also concluded that the two other officers during their testimony before me offered patently unbelievable after-the-fact rationalizations of their notes and their statements" to the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team, Braidwood said.

"I found all four officers' claims that they wrestled Mr. Dziekanski to the ground were deliberate misrepresentations made for the purpose of justifying their actions."



"I also disbelieved the four officers' claims there was no discussion between or among them about the incident before being questioned by IHIT investigators, although I did not conclude that they colluded to fabricate a story."

"From this review I drew two final conclusions," he said. "Despite their training, the officers approached the incident as though responding to a barroom brawl and failed to shift gears when they realized that they were dealing with an obviously distraught traveller."

"This tragic case is at its heart a story of shameful conduct by a few officers. It ought not to reflect unfairly on the many thousands of RCMP and other police officers who have, through years of public service, protected our communities and earned a well-deserved reputation for doing so."

Go read this link and watch the video of Braidwood giving some of his findings and then let me know if you still think the conduct of the RCMP officers was justified.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-wrong-to-use-taser-on-dziekanski-report-1.928850
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:31:30 AM
This is going far afield, but everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable.  In hindsight it wasn't perfect, but their actions were justifiable.


I have not idea how one might conclude that.  Did you read or hear about the findings of Mr. Justice Braidwood?

Quote"I found that Mr. Dziekanski had been compliant and was not defiant or resistant, did not brandish the stapler, did not move towards any of the officers," he said.

"I concluded that the constable was not justified in deploying the weapon and that neither the constable nor the corporal honestly perceived that Mr. Dziekanski was intending to attack any of the officers," he said.

Officers misrepresented actions

Braidwood concluded the officers later deliberately misrepresented what happened at the airport to justify their actions.

"I also concluded that the two other officers during their testimony before me offered patently unbelievable after-the-fact rationalizations of their notes and their statements" to the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team, Braidwood said.

"I found all four officers' claims that they wrestled Mr. Dziekanski to the ground were deliberate misrepresentations made for the purpose of justifying their actions."



"I also disbelieved the four officers' claims there was no discussion between or among them about the incident before being questioned by IHIT investigators, although I did not conclude that they colluded to fabricate a story."

"From this review I drew two final conclusions," he said. "Despite their training, the officers approached the incident as though responding to a barroom brawl and failed to shift gears when they realized that they were dealing with an obviously distraught traveller."

"This tragic case is at its heart a story of shameful conduct by a few officers. It ought not to reflect unfairly on the many thousands of RCMP and other police officers who have, through years of public service, protected our communities and earned a well-deserved reputation for doing so."

Go read this link and watch the video of Braidwood giving some of his findings and then let me know if you still think the conduct of the RCMP officers was justified.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-wrong-to-use-taser-on-dziekanski-report-1.928850

I disagree with Braidwood's conclusion.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 11:56:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 09, 2015, 11:30:25 AM
That's a difference in American and German tertiary education. They would go from high school to the police academy directly. The police academies will often give them something that may be comparable to your community college degrees. So by the time they are done with police academy, they would be like 21.

Ah.  Okay, I can see how that fits the German education/apprenticeship idea.

Quoteand then start to lose the physical abilities to be a cop around 45.
Hmm, not sure. You see older cops here. Not in all tasks of course (i.e. not in riot police), but also not limited to desk jobs. [/quote]

You see some older cops in the US as well, but generally cops are expected to retire after around 20 years of service.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

Yes.  And that's what I'm saying - if the cops had told the truth this would have been a short-lived non-story.  The story was in the secretiveness and deception, not in what happened to Mr. Dziekanski.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

Yes.  And that's what I'm saying - if the cops had told the truth this would have been a short-lived non-story.  The story was in the secretiveness and deception, not in what happened to Mr. Dziekanski.

:huh:

BB, they had to lie in order to justify using force.  Without the lie there is no justification for the use of any force.  So tell me again how you concluded that "everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: lustindarkness on April 09, 2015, 12:09:57 PM
He was Polish. Duh
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 11:56:03 AM
You see some older cops in the US as well, but generally cops are expected to retire after around 20 years of service.

Here they generally remain in service till reaching legal retirement age.
Getting new blood for the street cops has become a bit of a problem in Germany (high requirements, shitty pay for hard work and terrible hours), so we would be pretty much screwed without the veterans.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on April 09, 2015, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2015, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

Yes.  And that's what I'm saying - if the cops had told the truth this would have been a short-lived non-story.  The story was in the secretiveness and deception, not in what happened to Mr. Dziekanski.

:huh:

BB, they had to lie in order to justify using force.  Without the lie there is no justification for the use of any force.  So tell me again how you concluded that "everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable".

I'm pretty new around here and even I know the answer to that.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 12:39:03 PM
It does show you the thought process of people involved in investigations after cop shootings.  I bet most cops and prosecutors involved in hushing things up don't do their business in nefarious smoke-filled rooms;  they just want to save good cops making a possibly flawed decisions the bullshit from the politicians and the public that doesn't understand the realities of policing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 12:53:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2015, 11:44:10 AM
21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.

[grumbler]They receive no training. They are let loose into the streets the moment they sign up.[/grumbler]
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2015, 11:44:10 AM
21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.

31 of the 35 shots were fired from 3 inches behind the head.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 01:04:48 PM
 :face:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 12:53:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2015, 11:44:10 AM
21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.

[grumbler]They receive no training. They are let loose into the streets the moment they sign up.[/grumbler]

Now you are letting your impulse towards intellectual dishonesty to overcome your common sense. :contract:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 11:22:37 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 09, 2015, 11:20:44 AM
It's the same video, you're just seeing different things.  In the video, Slager picks up the stun gun from where he was standing when he was shooting, and walks over to the dead guy and drops it next to him.

And I didn't see the part where he drops it next to the dead dude.  I saw the part where he picks it up and holsters it.

Take a look at this link

http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000003615939/video-shows-fatal-police-shooting.html

They put up a caption at the point where he appears to be dropping it by the body.  Roughly a third of the way in.

The other thing I find remarkable is that the officer's first thought isn't to treat the guy he just shot to try to save his life.  His first thought is to go back and get his taser.  Now, why could that possibly be a priority?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 01:20:08 PM
I watched the video the other day and it's quite sickening.  I know being a cop isn't an easy job but that dude's actions were callous and evil assuming I clearly understood what I was seeing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 09, 2015, 01:22:42 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2015, 01:20:08 PM
I watched the video the other day and it's quite sickening.  I know being a cop isn't an easy job but that dude's actions were callous and evil assuming I clearly understood what I was seeing.

Yep.  Pretty damning.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 01:44:12 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on April 09, 2015, 12:19:50 PM
Here they generally remain in service till reaching legal retirement age.
Getting new blood for the street cops has become a bit of a problem in Germany (high requirements, shitty pay for hard work and terrible hours), so we would be pretty much screwed without the veterans.

The differences between the German and US approach to police careers makes me wonder if maybe the exceptionalism generally applied to the US police career (especially as it isn't seen as the only career one will have) might not be a cause of, rather than (as I had assumed before this conversation) a result of, the greater disconnect between the populace and the police in the US.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 09, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2015, 01:44:12 PM

The differences between the German and US approach to police careers makes me wonder if maybe the exceptionalism generally applied to the US police career (especially as it isn't seen as the only career one will have) might not be a cause of, rather than (as I had assumed before this conversation) a result of, the greater disconnect between the populace and the police in the US.

It probably started out the one and evolved into the other over the years.
Title: Police Brutality Megathread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2015, 08:50:42 PM
Now that's some frontier justice. :outback:

Shouldn't we rename this thread by now?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-officers-pummel-man-repeatedly-after-chase-stolen-horse-n338881

Quote
California Sheriff Investigates 'Disturbing' Video of Suspect Being Beaten

By M. Alex Johnson

The San Bernardino County, California, Sheriff's Office opened two investigations Thursday only hours after an NBC Los Angeles helicopter recorded deputies using a stun gun on a man on a stolen horse and then beating him repeatedly.

In the video, a sheriff's helicopter can be seen landing next to the man, who falls off the horse and is stunned by one of the deputies. Two deputies begin punching him in the head and kneeing him in the groin. Then, three others arrive and join in the pummeling, which lasts about two minutes.

The sheriff's office identified the man in a statement as Francis Jared Pusok, 30, of Apple Valley. It said Pusok was being treated at a hospital for undisclosed injuries.

The sheriff's office said deputies were serving a search warrant in connection with an identity theft investigation about 12:12 p.m. (3:12 p.m. ET) when Pusok fled in a vehicle. At some point, he stole a horse from a group of people in San Bernardino National Park and rode off through dirt trails into steep, rugged terrain, the statement said.



About two hours after the chase started, three deputies landed in a sheriff's helicopter, spooking the horse, which threw Pusok off, according to the statement. "A Taser was deployed but was ineffective due to his loose clothing," it said. "A use of force occurred during the arrest."

Cynthia Bachman, a spokeswoman for the sheriff's department, said that two deputies were being treated for dehydration and that a third was injured. That deputy was kicked by the horse, which was also injured during the pursuit, the sheriff's statement said.

"The video surrounding this incident is disturbing and I have ordered an internal investigation be conducted immediately," Sheriff John McMahon said. He said a special detail was also conducting a criminal investigation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on April 09, 2015, 08:52:52 PM
The Ole Wood Shampoo
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on April 10, 2015, 01:08:46 AM
Surely the horse thief would hang under frontier justice.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: lustindarkness on April 10, 2015, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2015, 08:50:42 PM
Now that's some frontier justice. :outback:

Shouldn't we rename this thread by now?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-officers-pummel-man-repeatedly-after-chase-stolen-horse-n338881

Quote
California Sheriff Investigates 'Disturbing' Video of Suspect Being Beaten

By M. Alex Johnson

The San Bernardino County, California, Sheriff's Office opened two investigations Thursday only hours after an NBC Los Angeles helicopter recorded deputies using a stun gun on a man on a stolen horse and then beating him repeatedly.

In the video, a sheriff's helicopter can be seen landing next to the man, who falls off the horse and is stunned by one of the deputies. Two deputies begin punching him in the head and kneeing him in the groin. Then, three others arrive and join in the pummeling, which lasts about two minutes.

The sheriff's office identified the man in a statement as Francis Jared Pusok, 30, of Apple Valley. It said Pusok was being treated at a hospital for undisclosed injuries.

The sheriff's office said deputies were serving a search warrant in connection with an identity theft investigation about 12:12 p.m. (3:12 p.m. ET) when Pusok fled in a vehicle. At some point, he stole a horse from a group of people in San Bernardino National Park and rode off through dirt trails into steep, rugged terrain, the statement said.



About two hours after the chase started, three deputies landed in a sheriff's helicopter, spooking the horse, which threw Pusok off, according to the statement. "A Taser was deployed but was ineffective due to his loose clothing," it said. "A use of force occurred during the arrest."

Cynthia Bachman, a spokeswoman for the sheriff's department, said that two deputies were being treated for dehydration and that a third was injured. That deputy was kicked by the horse, which was also injured during the pursuit, the sheriff's statement said.
"The video surrounding this incident is disturbing and I have ordered an internal investigation be conducted immediately," Sheriff John McMahon said. He said a special detail was also conducting a criminal investigation.

The horse got injured? that's what will get them in big trouble.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on April 12, 2015, 07:47:24 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2015, 10:35:09 AM
Euros are generally wusses on armed cops in the first place, though.  We don't have that luxury.  Over here an unarmed cop on patrol would mean a dead cop.
No they're not. Brits are but I think most continental police carry guns.

I was very freaked out as a kid when I saw armed police holding guns running through Gare du Nord on my first trip to Paris.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on April 12, 2015, 09:11:55 AM
All Swedish cops carry guns.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Iormlund on April 12, 2015, 12:41:41 PM
Same here.

Though not a common sight any more, anti-terror road-checks feature cops with shotguns, SMGs and assault rifles. The same goes for guards at Guardia Civil or military residential blocks. As a kid I crossed paths every day with two Air Force guards with SMGs on the way to school.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 12, 2015, 01:07:12 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on April 12, 2015, 12:41:41 PM
Same here.

Though not a common sight any more, anti-terror road-checks feature cops with shotguns, SMGs and assault rifles. The same goes for guards at Guardia Civil or military residential blocks. As a kid I crossed paths every day with two Air Force guards with SMGs on the way to school.


People with SMGs walking around in public would be an odd thing to see even for Americans. Why the British seem so twitchy is curious to me. However, I have even encountered people in the USA who also have that condition where just seeing the object is enough to be frightened. Like it's some kind of cursed talisman with a will of its own. Or the Ark that will melt your face off if you look at it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: The Brain on April 12, 2015, 02:27:48 PM
SMGs. :wub:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Sheilbh on April 12, 2015, 06:20:05 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 12, 2015, 01:07:12 PM
Why the British seem so twitchy is curious to me.
When we started to introduce police there was a desire to have a very clear distinction between soldiers and police because in the British mind continental examples of police forces were largely, I think paramilitary: the gendarmes, carabinieri, guardia civil etc. They were associated with tyranny and repression. The idea of 'free' Englishmen hosting a military police force was anathema. And possibly I suspect traditional Parliamentary cheapness. The ideology behind our police force was 'policing by consent' as Robert Peel put it, 'the public are the police and the police are the public'. They wouldn't be, as gendarmes and guardia civil, outsiders posted into a community to keep order.

The notable exception was Ireland which was a repressive, paramilitary force (with the exception of the Metropolitan Dublin force which was based on the Met in London). Obviously since then the Police have often failed at policing by consent - sus laws and the routine clampdowns on every possible black member of the IRA in the 80s spring to mind - but that's still the principle. Same reason why, until recently, we didn't have water cannon or, I think, rubber bullets on the mainland.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 13, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
Do tasers really feel so similar to firearms that this mistake is plausible? :yeahright:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oklahoma-deputy-sheriff-robert-bates-charged-suspects-shooting-death-n340821

QuoteOklahoma Deputy Sheriff Robert Bates Charged With Manslaughter in Suspect's Shooting Death

A Tulsa, Oklahoma reserve sheriff's deputy was charged with second-degree manslaughter Monday for the shooting death of an unarmed black man.

The charges against Robert Charles Bates came hours after the family of the dead man, Eric Courtney Harris, accused deputies of treating him inhumanely after he was shot at the conclusion of an April 2 foot chase stemming from a sting operation in which Harris had allegedly arranged to sell a gun to undercover officers from the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office Violent Crimes Task Force.

Video footage of the incident showed Harris writhing on the ground and complaining that he was having trouble breathing. An unidentified officer can be heard responding, "F--k your breath."

Harris' family release a statement Monday calling the response "appalling." The relatives added, "No human being deserves to be treated with such contempt."

Bates, 73, an insurance agent who'd served as a reserve deputy since 2008, thought he was using a Taser on Harris, but shot him with a gun instead, sheriff's officer investigators have said.

In the video, Bates can be heard shouting, "Taser! Taser!" before firing a single round from his sidearm, hitting Harris, who was pinned to the ground by officers.

Bates quickly realized his mistake: "I shot him! I'm sorry!" he is heard saying.

Harris was taken to the hospital, where he died about an hour later.

The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office defended Bates last week, saying he committed no crime, noting that officers chasing Harris had good reason to fear that he was armed. Tulsa Police Sgt. Jim Clarke, who reviewed the incident for the sheriff's office, called the shooting an accident attributable to a faulty response to stressful situations called "slip and capture."

They then turned the investigation over to Tulsa County District Attorney Stephen Kunzweiler, who on Monday announced the second-degree manslaughter charges.

Underpinning the charge is a finding of what he called in a statement "culpable negligence," which Kunzweiler defined as "the omission to do something which a reasonably careful person would do, or the lack of the usual ordinary care and caution in the performance of an act usually and ordinarily exercised by a person under similar circumstances and conditions."

Harris' family accused Clarke and the sheriff's department of seeking to protect Bates, who, according to the Tulsa World newspaper was a chairman of Sheriff Stanley Glanz's 2012 re-election campaign, to which he donated $2,500.

In an interview with the paper, Glanz said he had been friends with Bates for about 50 years, and that Bates had been his insurance agent. But Glanz said he had not given Bates preferential treatment.

It is common practice for supporters to be hired as reserve deputies, who undergo police training and are assigned to accompany sworn officers on law enforcement operations, Glanz has said.

Harris' family questioned the wisdom of having a 73-year-old insurance executive, who'd served briefly as a police officer in the 1960s, involved in a undercover sting operation, let alone someone who'd given political donations to his boss.

"We do believe something is deeply wrong with the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office," the family statement said.

Such arrangements are not unheard of, in Oklahoma or elsewhere. In Michigan, for example, some small town police departments, strapped for cash, have hired volunteer cops to help fight crime. Sometimes the hires pay for their uniform and gun.

"In this state and many others, you have to have a license to practice law, to practice medicine, to cut hair and do nails, yet this subsection of my industry exists almost unchecked," said Dave LaMontaine, prseident of the Deputy Sheriffs Association of Michigan.

He added, "In some places, it's pay to play."

The hiring of volunteer reserve sheriff's officers dates back to the days of the Wild West, when sheriffs sought help from citizens enforcing the law, experts said.

In the modern versions, reserves must complete some sort of training, depending on the state and agency where they work. In some states, reserves can carry guns, and additional training earns them the ability to work closely with police officers. Certain categories of California deputies can patrol areas on their own, Police Foundation President Jim Bueermann said.

Jonathan Thompson, deputy executive director of the National Sheriffs' Association, said the hiring of reserve officers has increased since 9/11, with fears of terror attacks that could strain local departments. With a generation of baby-boomer officers retiring, there is a large pool of former officers to recruit from, he said.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on April 13, 2015, 05:30:50 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 13, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
Do tasers really feel so similar to firearms that this mistake is plausible? :yeahright:

It may to a 73 year old insurance agent.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Habbaku on April 13, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: sbr on April 13, 2015, 05:30:50 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 13, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
Do tasers really feel so similar to firearms that this mistake is plausible? :yeahright:

It may to a 73 year old insurance agent.

:contract:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 13, 2015, 10:44:02 PM
Who makes a guy like that a deputy?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Habbaku on April 13, 2015, 11:08:30 PM
Just as various states have "state defense forces" that allow people to play chocolate soldier every few weekends and wear a bullshit uniform, so do a large number of departments allow hangers-on and supporters to strut around as deputies for a bit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 13, 2015, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 13, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: sbr on April 13, 2015, 05:30:50 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 13, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
Do tasers really feel so similar to firearms that this mistake is plausible? :yeahright:

It may to a 73 year old insurance agent.

:contract:
I didn't realize you were a 73 year old insurance agent. My condolences. -_-
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Habbaku on April 13, 2015, 11:17:27 PM
Zing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 10:53:35 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 13, 2015, 10:44:02 PM
Who makes a guy like that a deputy?

US States apparently.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on April 14, 2015, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 10:53:35 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 13, 2015, 10:44:02 PM
Who makes a guy like that a deputy?

US States apparently.

:hmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 13, 2015, 10:44:02 PM
Who makes a guy like that a deputy?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.givememyremote.com%2Fremote%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2006%2F04%2FDwight_sheriff.jpg&hash=62af18442c07e2ecb6e22fc11f11a1dcca510309)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:11:41 AM
Tulsa does not have alot of quality people to pick from.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 11:13:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 14, 2015, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 10:53:35 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 13, 2015, 10:44:02 PM
Who makes a guy like that a deputy?

US States apparently.

:hmm:

Do the States not have the power to regulate such things?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:19:32 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 11:13:42 AM
Do the States not have the power to regulate such things?

Maybe.

I mean sure, the powers of each state is theoretically extensive. Each state has its own constitution that separates the powers between local and state agencies.  In frontier-ish states like Okieland they tend to reserve lots of power for local government.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 14, 2015, 11:46:04 AM
I heard on the radio news this morning that the guy *bought* his position as a deputy. I don't know how that works, but if someone wants that bad enough to pay for it he should probably be refused.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:49:11 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 14, 2015, 11:46:04 AM
I heard on the radio news this morning that the guy *bought* his position as a deputy. I don't know how that works, but if someone wants that bad enough to pay for it he should probably be refused.

I know local governments are hard up for cash but venal offices seems a bit extreme. But maybe that deputy position comes with ennoblement.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Grey Fox on April 14, 2015, 11:49:55 AM
73 year old is too old to hold any kind of position of power.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: lustindarkness on April 14, 2015, 11:52:31 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 14, 2015, 11:49:55 AM
73 year old is too old to hold any kind of position of power.

Including elected officials.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2015, 07:43:22 AM
This department is fucked, lawsuits are gonna decimate it.

m.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/sources-supervisors-told-to-falsify-reserve-deputy-s-training-records/article_a6330f10-a9fb-51e3-ab5e-4d97b03c6c04.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/sources-supervisors-told-to-falsify-reserve-deputy-s-training-records/article_a6330f10-a9fb-51e3-ab5e-4d97b03c6c04.html?mode=jqm)

QuoteSources: Supervisors told to falsify reserve deputy's training records; department announces internal review

Supervisors ordered to credit reserve deputy with proper papers.

Update: The Maricopa County (Arizona) Sheriff's Office on Thursday questioned a training claim made by Reserve Deputy Robert Bates in the aftermath of a fatal shooting.

In a statement that the 73-year-old reserve deputy gave the sheriff's office following the fatal shooting of Eric Harris during an undercover operation on April 2, Bates noted he had taken "active shooter training" from the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.

Lisa Allen, chief media relations office for the sheriff's office there, said they had no record of Bates attending their training.

In fact, Allen said, that training is only available to members of the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, meaning Bates would not have been eligible. The class, Allen said, has only been offered three times.

"We don't allow out-of-state people to take the class," she said. "I'm only surmising, and I can't confirm this because this would not have been our class, but our active shooter instructor did travel to Dallas once to teach a class.

"Maybe he took that class and is saying he took it through us, but again, that would not have been our class, so we have no way to verify if he attended it or not."

In Bates' seven-page statement to Tulsa County sheriff's investigators, obtained by the World on Wednesday, the reserve deputy states he previously attended a five-day homicide investigation school in Dallas and received "active shooter response training" by the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.

Update: The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office announced early Thursday it will conduct an internal review of the deputy reserve program.

The announcement comes just two weeks after 73-year-old Reserve Deputy Robert Bates fatally shot Eric Harris during an undercover operation on April 2.

"As with any critical incident, we are doing an internal review of our program and policy to determine if any changes need to take place," Tulsa County sheriff's Maj. Shannon Clark said.

Clark addressed the Tulsa World's story in which sources said sheriff's office supervisors were reassigned for not falsifying Bates' training documents, telling NBC News: "The media outlet that is putting that information out is using unconfirmed sources and also relying on anonymity. We don't respond to rumor."

Below is the Tulsa World story that appeared in the Thursday morning print edition and online

Supervisors at the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office were ordered to falsify a reserve deputy's training records, giving him credit for field training he never took and firearms certifications he should not have received, sources told the Tulsa World.

At least three of reserve deputy Robert Bates' supervisors were transferred after refusing to sign off on his state-required training, multiple sources speaking on condition of anonymity told the World.

Bates, 73, is accused of second-degree manslaughter in the shooting death of Eric Harris during an undercover operation on April 2.

The sources' claims are corroborated by records, including a statement by Bates after the shooting, that he was certified as an advanced reserve deputy in 2007.

An attorney for Harris' family also raised questions about the authenticity of Bates' training records.

Additionally, Sheriff Stanley Glanz told a Tulsa radio station this week that Bates had been certified to use three weapons, including a revolver he fired at Harris. However, Glanz said the Sheriff's Office has not been able to find the paperwork on those certifications.

The sheriff's deputy that certified Bates has moved on to work for the Secret Service, Glanz said during the radio interview.

"We can't find the records that she supposedly turned in," Glanz said. "So we are going to talk to her to find out if for sure he's been qualified with those (weapons)."

Undersheriff Tim Albin was unavailable for comment Wednesday but in an earlier interview, Albin said he was unaware of any concerns expressed by supervisors about Bates' training.

The Sheriff's Office has released a summary listing training courses Bates had been given credit for but have not released documents showing which supervisors signed off on that training.

He rejected claims that Bates' training records were falsified and that supervisors who refused to do so were transferred to less desirable assignments.

"The training record speaks for itself. I have absolutely no knowledge of what you are talking about," Albin said. "There aren't any secrets in law enforcement. Zero. Those types of issues would have come up."

During a press conference Friday, Capt. Bill McKelvey and Tulsa Police Sgt. Jim Clark, a consultant hired by the county, also said they were unaware of concerns about Bates' training.

The World has requested records showing which supervisors signed off on Bates' training. An attorney for the Sheriff's Office declined to provide them, saying the matter is under investigation.

Bates, a wealthy Tulsa insurance executive, turned himself in Tuesday after being charged on Monday in Harris' death. He is free on $25,000 bond.

Harris was shot and killed during an undercover operation the Sheriff's Violent Crimes Task Force was conducting. Harris, according to the sheriff's office, had previously sold methamphetamine to undercover deputies and was in the act of selling them a stolen gun.

As deputies moved in to make the arrest, Harris bolted from the truck and ran, pursued by deputies until they brought him to the ground. Bates shot Harris while he was on the ground and immediately said, "Oh, I shot him! I'm sorry."

The Sheriff's Office has said Bates is typically in a support role assisting the task force. He told investigators he meant to stun Harris with a Taser but accidentally shot him with a handgun instead.

Bates was classified by the Sheriff's Office as an "advanced reserve." That means Bates would have had to complete 480 hours of the "Field Training Officer," or FTO, program to maintain that classification.

Dan Smolen, who represents Harris' family, said Wednesday that he believes Bates' field training records were falsified and that they no longer exist.

The Sheriff's Office previously said Bates had joined the reserve deputy force in 2008. However, Bates, in a statement he gave the Sheriff's Office following Harris' shooting, said he became an advanced reserve deputy in 2007.

The cause of that discrepancy is unclear.

In Bates' seven-page statement to Tulsa County sheriff's investigators, obtained by the World on Wednesday, the reserve deputy states he previously attended a five-day homicide investigation school in Dallas and received "active shooter response training" by the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office in Arizona.

Bates said in the statement that he had been involved in "at least 100 other" assignments, such as the undercover operation planned on April 2.

In that statement, Bates said he contacted a task force member on April 1 to ask if there was a "pending operation" he could assist with.

The task force member informed Bates of the plan to have an undercover officer buy a gun from Harris the following day.

Officials said Harris could have faced up to life in prison for selling the firearm because he had prior felony convictions.

During a briefing hours before the shooting, Bates said he was informed that Harris was "a bad son of a b----" who had gang affiliations.

Deputies in attendance were told Harris was known to carry a gun and to consider him armed and dangerous.

During a press conference last week, a consultant hired by the Sheriff's Office pointed to several scenes from the recorded video of Harris' shooting.

The consultant said the still images from the video showed why pursuing deputies would be concerned that Harris had a gun in his pants as he fled.

Bates mentioned this in his statement as well, noting he believed that Harris was running "in an unusual way," touching his right hand to his waistband.

It was later determined that Harris did not have a gun on his body when he was tackled and shot. The video shows his arms flailing as he runs.

Undersheriff Tim Albin has said the video cuts off after Harris was shot because the camera battery died. The video was filmed on a "sunglasses cam" purchased by Bates for the task force.

Bates was Glanz's 2012 re-election campaign manager and also was named reserve deputy of the year in 2011.

He has purchased five automobiles for the task force. Bates and other task force members drive the vehicles, which the Sheriff's Office equipped with lights and other police equipment.

In his statement, Bates said he was unsure if the pursuing deputy would catch the fleeing Harris. So Bates said he grabbed his pepper-ball launcher, a "less lethal" device meant to incapacitate much in the same way as pepper spray.

Bates said as he approached the scuffle, he thought he noticed Harris again reaching for his waistband. At this point, while two additional deputies were subduing Harris, Bates said he saw a "very brief opening" in which he could hit Harris with a Taser.

Bates noted "thinking I have to deploy it rapidly, as I still thought there was a strong possibility Harris had a gun on him."

At that point, as is evident in the video, Bates stated "Taser! Taser!" then fired one shot, striking Harris below the right arm.

Bates stated in his account that the time from which Harris was tackled by one deputy to the time Bates fired the fatal shot was "only about 5 to 10 seconds."


Title: Re: Police Brutality Megathread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2015, 05:34:07 AM
Sounds like they threw him down face first so hard it broke his neck. :o

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/healthy-baltimore-man-dies-after-being-restrained-police-n344506

QuoteFreddie Gray Dies After Spine Injured in Police Custody: Lawyer

A 27-year-old Baltimore man died Sunday a week after an encounter with police that left him with a severed spine, according to a lawyer for his family.

Freddie Gray was arrested for yet-undisclosed reasons April 12 after fleeing police on foot. It was unclear when Gray's injury occurred. His death was confirmed Sunday by the University of Maryland Medical Center.

William Murphy, a lawyer for Gray's family, said Gray was healthy before the encounter and that cops chased him "without any evidence he committed a crime."

"His take-down and arrest without probable cause occurred under a police video camera, which taped everything including the police dragging and throwing Freddy into a police vehicle while he screamed in pain," Murphy said in a statement, adding that Gray's spine was 80 percent severed at his neck while in police custody.

He said Gray "lapsed into a coma, died, was resuscitated, stayed in a coma and on Monday, underwent extensive surgery at Shock Trauma [a Baltimore hospital] to save his life." Gray "clung to life for seven days" before his death Sunday morning, Murphy added.

"We believe the police are keeping the circumstances of Freddie's death secret until they develop a version of events that will absolve them of all responsibility," Murphy said. "However, his family and the citizens of Baltimore deserve to know the real truth; and we will not stop until we get justice for Freddie."

Baltimore police promised a full investigation and officials vowed to get answers about what happened to Gray.

Police could be seen on video restraining a handcuffed Gray face down on the sidewalk.

"They had him in a crab-like position, where his legs were bent back and his arms," a witness told NBC station WBAL. "He was handcuffed, and at this point, they had knees in his back and his head."

The video shows police dragging Gray, who can be heard screaming about his wrists, and then placing him face down in the back of a police van. Gray was taken from the van several blocks away so cops could "place additional restraints on the suspect," according to a Baltimore police timeline.

"They threw him in the paddy wagon face first, you know, face down, and mind you, his arms and legs are locked up," a second witness told WBAL. "He was face down as he was on his stomach. They just threw him in the paddy wagon face down, head first, ankles bound, arms bound."

Gray was then driven a few blocks to the Western District station house, where police called an ambulance about a half-hour later, according to the timeline.

Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake had questions and promised to get answers for the community.

"How was Mr. Gray injured? Were our proper protocols and procedures actually followed? What are the next steps?" she asked at a Sunday press conference. "Right now we're still collecting details surrounding the incident, but I want our residents to know that we will get the answers."

Baltimore police promised a full investigation.

"I want citizens to know exactly how it happened," said Police Commissioner Anthony Batts, who promised to "hold the right people accountable."

Batts said that Gray's family has so far declined to sit down with police — but that the force would try again this week to set up a meeting.

Deputy Commissioner Jerry Rodriguez said at a news conference Sunday that a criminal investigation was underway.

"It's a two-part investigation. One is a criminal case, for Mr. Gray and also the officers. We always have that component in there to determine whether there is criminal culpability,'' Rodriguez told a press conference on Sunday.

A protest was held Sunday outside the station house where Gray was taken after a rally was held there Saturday night, according to the Baltimore Sun.

The events were organized by the Baltimore activist group People's Power Assembly and Justice League NYC, who diverted their "March2Justice" to Washington, D.C., "to stand in solidarity with the family of Freddie Gray," the paper reported.

— William J. Gorta
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 04:00:28 AM
They're so fucking brazen. "We didn't use any force! His spine just snapped by itself!"

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/six-cops-suspended-death-baltimore-man-deny-using-force-n345236

QuoteBaltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry Rodriguez made the disclosure at a press conference Monday, where an "angry" and "frustrated" Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake promised a thorough investigation and to provide a "very, very tense" Baltimore with "all of the information it deserves."

"None of the officers describe any use of force," Rodriguez said. "None of the officers describe using any force against Mr. Gray."

He said he did not know yet what happened to Gray, who died Sunday, a week after officials said he bolted from three cops after making eye contact with one of them.

"When Mr. Gray was placed in that van, he was able to talk, he was upset," Rodriguez said. "When he was taken out of the van, he could not talk, he could not breathe."

Gray's lawyer said that Gray's spinal cord was 80 percent severed and that his neck was broken. An autopsy was performed Monday.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 07:37:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 04:00:28 AM
They're so fucking brazen. "We didn't use any force! His spine just snapped by itself!"

Chillax.  Wait for the facts before leaping to delusions.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: PDH on April 21, 2015, 07:43:11 AM
 :rolleyes:  It was his fault.  If he hadn't been black, or perhaps a shirtless and shoeless white guy in levis, they wouldn't have had to throw him to the ground.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on April 21, 2015, 07:47:39 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fak-hdl.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2F2014-08%2F19%2F14%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr06%2Fanigif_enhanced-12698-1408474690-7.gif&hash=b950e1373b6a8e7b19412293702767bfde55cacb)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fak-hdl.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2F2014-08%2F19%2F14%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr07%2Fanigif_enhanced-14865-1408474701-12.gif&hash=d0b6517ee2fbc7c07e4f7b7025ebfab98a59b0ba)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on April 21, 2015, 06:17:20 PM
Protests in Baltimore. We could use CdM's analysis now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: citizen k on April 21, 2015, 06:46:43 PM
Another fatal police shooting, this time by NYPD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22qbZ6Qccdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22qbZ6Qccdw)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: citizen k on April 21, 2015, 06:46:43 PM
Another fatal police shooting, this time by NYPD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22qbZ6Qccdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22qbZ6Qccdw)

No one hurt and it's "fatal?"  To a cop's career, maybe.
Title: Re: Police Brutality Megathread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 07:07:55 PM
Good

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-investigate-freddie-grays-death-baltimore-police-custody-n345771

Quote
The U.S. Justice Department opened a civil rights investigation Tuesday in the death of Freddie Gray, the Baltimore man whose spine was allegedly severed while he was in police custody.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on April 21, 2015, 08:28:07 PM
N.W.A said it best
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2015, 10:15:05 PM
The judge in the Oklahoma volunteer deputy case allowed the defendant to go to the Bahamas for a month on a pre-planned vacation.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2015, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2015, 10:15:05 PM
The judge in the Oklahoma volunteer deputy case allowed the defendant to go to the Bahamas for a month on a pre-planned vacation.
:bleeding:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 23, 2015, 06:56:59 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2015, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2015, 10:15:05 PM
The judge in the Oklahoma volunteer deputy case allowed the defendant to go to the Bahamas for a month on a pre-planned vacation.
:bleeding:
:bleeding:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2015, 01:26:13 AM
If true, charge them with manslaughter.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rough-ride-lawyer-says-man-fatally-injured-custody-baltimore-police-n347391
Quote
Rough Ride? Lawyer Says Man Fatally Injured in Custody of Baltimore Police Lacked Seat Belt

BALTIMORE — No video captured what happened to Freddie Gray inside the police van where officers heaved him into a metal compartment after pinning him to a sidewalk. The cause of his fatal spine injury has not been revealed.

But a troubling detail emerged as hundreds of protesters converged on City Hall again Thursday: He was not only handcuffed and put in leg irons, but left without a seat belt during his trip to the station, a police union's lawyer said.

Unbelted detainees have been paralyzed and even killed by rough rides in what used to be called "paddy wagons." It even has a name: "nickel rides," referring to cheap amusement park thrills.

Police brutality against prisoners being transported was addressed just six months ago in a plan released by Baltimore officials to reduce this misconduct. Department rules updated nine days before Gray's arrest clearly state that all detainees shall be strapped in by seat belts or "other authorized restraining devices" for their own safety after arrest.

Gray was not belted in, said attorney Michael Davey, who represents at least one of the officers under investigation.

But he took issue with the rules.

"Policy is policy, practice is something else," particularly if a prisoner is combative, Davey told The Associated Press. "It is not always possible or safe for officers to enter the rear of those transport vans that are very small, and this one was very small."

Assistant Police Commissioner Jerry Rodriguez said Gray was secured by "leg irons" after he became agitated during the trip, but the department hasn't said whether he was buckled in with a seat belt.

The Gray family's lawyer, Billy Murphy, said "his spine was 80 percent severed" while in custody. It's not clear whether he was injured by officers in the street or while being carried alone in the van's compartment.

But if it happened on the way to the station, it wouldn't be the first such injury in Baltimore: Dondi Johnson died of a fractured spine in 2005 after he was arrested for urinating in public and transported without a seat belt, with his hands cuffed behind his back.

"We argued they gave him what we call a 'rough ride,'" at high speed with hard cornering, said Attorney Kerry D. Staton. "He was thrown from one seat into the opposite wall, and that's how he broke his neck."

Staton obtained a $7.4 million judgment for the family, later reduced to the legal cap of $200,000.

It also has happened in Philadelphia, where police in 2001 barred transportation of prisoners without padding or belts after The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that the city had paid $2.3 million to settle lawsuits over intentionally rough rides, which permanently paralyzed two people.

Gray fled on foot and was captured on April 12 after an officer "made eye contact" with him outside a public housing complex, police said. Videos show Gray screaming on the ground before being dragged, his legs limp, into a van. Witnesses said he was crying out in pain.

Kevin Moore, a friend of Freddie Gray's who recorded video of his arrest, told The Baltimore Sun that police had Gray's legs bent "like he was a crab or a piece of origami."
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 05:19:01 PM
Anarchy in Baltimore.  7 cops injured, one unconscious.  Cop cars being pelted with rocks and bottles.  Stores being looted.  Schools closed down, universities closed down.  Hundred of cops being called in from other jurisdictions.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on April 27, 2015, 05:24:34 PM
I'VE GOT A MASSIVE BONER
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 27, 2015, 05:32:57 PM
Seedy is probably out lighting up the town.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 27, 2015, 06:36:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 27, 2015, 05:32:57 PM
Seedy is probably out lighting up the town.

Looks like someone's lighting up some cop cars and buildings.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stones-hurled-cops-after-gray-funeral-gangs-unite-target-cops-n349186
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: lustindarkness on April 27, 2015, 07:10:53 PM
Man I wish Seedy was here to give us his opinion on this. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on April 27, 2015, 07:17:56 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on April 27, 2015, 07:10:53 PM
Man I wish Seedy was here to give us his opinion on this. :(

Just guessing, but I'd say he'd come out against cop killing.     ;)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on April 27, 2015, 08:17:51 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

QuoteThe Brutality of Police Culture in Baltimore

Years of abuses are every bit as egregious as what the Department of Justice documented in Ferguson, Missouri, and as deserving of a national response.

In Baltimore, where 25-year-old Freddie Gray died shortly after being taken into police custody, an investigation may uncover homicidal misconduct by law enforcement, as happened in the North Charleston, South Carolina, killing of Walter Scott. Or the facts may confound the darkest suspicions of protestors, as when the Department of Justice released its report on the killing of Michael Brown.

What's crucial to understand, as Baltimore residents take to the streets in long-simmering frustration, is that their general grievances are valid regardless of how this case plays out. For as in Ferguson, where residents suffered through years of misconduct so egregious that most Americans could scarcely conceive of what was going on, the people of Baltimore are policed by an entity that perpetrates stunning abuses. The difference is that this time we needn't wait for a DOJ report to tell us so. Harrowing evidence has been presented. Yet America hasn't looked.   

I include myself. 

Despite actively reading and commenting on police misconduct for many years, I was unaware until yesterday that the Baltimore Sun published a searing 2014 article documenting recent abuses that are national scandals in their own rights.

A grandmother's bones were broken. A pregnant woman was violently thrown to the ground. Millions of dollars were paid out to numerous victims of police brutality.

And almost none of us noticed!

So I join all who say that protests in Baltimore should remain peaceful, and I will continue to withhold judgment about Gray's death until more facts are known.

But I also insist that Baltimore protests are appropriate regardless of what happened to Freddie Gray, as is more federal scrutiny and intervention. Although much was rightly made of Ferguson's racially unrepresentative local leadership, the presence of a black mayor and a diverse city council has not solved Baltimore's police problem, partly because the DOJ responded to revelations of epidemic brutality with less than the full-scale civil rights probe that some residents requested and because Maryland pols have thwarted reform bills urged by city leaders.

There are so many good reasons for locals to be outraged.

The Baltimore Sun's article shows why in detail. And a few choice excerpts are the best beginning in this attempt to contextualize the ongoing protests within recent history.

Let's start with the money.

$5.7 million is the amount the city paid to victims of brutality between 2011 and 2014. And as huge as that figure is, the more staggering number in the article is this one: "Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil-rights violations." What tiny percentage of the unjustly beaten win formal legal judgments?

If you're imagining that they were all men in their twenties, think again:

Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson. Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones — jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles — head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.
The 87-year-old grandmother was named Venus Green. A former teacher with two college degrees, she spent her retirement years as a foster parent for needy children. She was on her porch one day when her grandson ran up crying for an ambulance.

He'd been shot.

The article goes on to tell her story from a legal document in her successful lawsuit:

Paramedics and police responded to the emergency call, but the white officer became hostile. "What happened? Who shot you?" Green recalled the officer saying to her grandson, according to an 11-page letter in which she detailed the incident for her lawyer. Excerpts from the letter were included in her lawsuit. "You're lying. You know you were shot inside that house. We ain't going to help you because you are lying."

"Mister, he isn't lying," replied Green, who had no criminal record. "He came from down that way running, calling me to call the ambulance."

The officer, who is not identified in the lawsuit, wanted to go into the basement, but Green demanded a warrant. Her grandson kept two dogs downstairs and she feared they would attack. The officer unhooked the lock, but Green latched it. He shoved Green against the wall.

She hit the wooden floor. "Bitch, you ain't no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up," Green recalled the officer saying as he stood over her. "He pulled me up, pushed me in the dining room over the couch, put his knees in my back, twisted my arms and wrist and put handcuffs on my hands and threw me face down on the couch."

After pulling Green to her feet, the officer told her she was under arrest. Green complained of pain. "My neck and shoulder are hurting," Green told him. "Please take these handcuffs off." An African-American officer then walked in the house, saw her sobbing and asked that the handcuffs be removed since Green wasn't violent. The cuffs came off, and Green didn't face any charges. But a broken shoulder tormented her for months.
When pondering the fact that Baltimore paid out $5.7 million in brutality settlements over four years, consider that the payout in this case was just $95,000. (For the story of the pregnant woman and many others, the full article is here.)

Lest anyone imagine that this investigation was the only tipoff of egregious misconduct among Baltimore police, more context is useful. The period covered in the brutality investigation came immediately after the FBI caught 51 Baltimore police officers in a scheme that resulted in at least 12 extortion convictions.

Shortly after the investigation was published this happened on a Baltimore street:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDTbSmF76N8


This year a detective who retired from the police force last year demonstrated a violent streak—he allegedly took part in a motorcycle-club brawl that left a man hospitalized. Also in 2014, "a city police officer was charged with felony assault after he stormed into a home in full uniform Monday and threatened to kill his wife with his service weapon." And Baltimore police tased a hospitalized meningitis patient 5 times in the course of ten minutes. He died soon after. Prosecutors did not file charges.

Another cop was charged with an assault on a 14-year-old boy.

Even animals couldn't escape the brutality of the Baltimore police last year. In July, "Officer Thomas Schmidt, a 24-year veteran assigned to the Emergency Services unit, was placed on paid administrative leave after police say he held down a Shar-Pei while a fellow officer, Jeffrey Bolger, slit the dog's throat." A month later, a Baltimore police officer plead guilty "to a felony animal cruelty charge after he fatally beat and choked his girlfriend's Jack Russell terrier," an August 5 article noted. The very same year, even one of Baltimore's good cops couldn't escape the horror show of dead animals: "Four investigators from agencies outside Baltimore are working to determine who left a dead rat on the car windshield of an officer who was cooperating with prosecutors on a police brutality case."

What about the prior year?

There was a murder-suicide, with a policeman killing a firefighter, his girlfriend, and himself. There was a different officer who killed himself in jail after being charged with killing his fiancée. In yet another case, "Abdul Salaam, 36, says he was beaten in July 2013 after a traffic stop by officers Nicholas Chapman and Jorge Bernardez-Ruiz and that he never got a response to his complaint filed with internal affairs," The Sun reported. "Those officers would be implicated less than three weeks later in the death of 44-year-old Tyrone West while he was in police custody." Also in 2013, a jury acquitted an off-duty police officer on manslaughter charges after he chased down and killed a 17-year-old boy who may or may not have thrown a rock that thumped harmlessly into his front door. And that's not even getting into serious corruption that wasn't brutality.

I could go on, but I've long since started to skim past stories like "Baltimore police officer pimps out his own wife" and thinking, meh, I've seen worse from cops there. The cop who shot himself and lied about it to get worker's comp benefits? Meh, at least he didn't shoot someone else and then lie about what happened. There is just a staggering level of dysfunction in the department, and residents of Baltimore, a city that could use a professional crime-fighting force if ever there was one, have suffered under it year after year after year. Pick one. (Take 2008! A Baltimore cop shot a man twice in the back. He was acquitted, too.)

There is so much I haven't included (example), and I've just trawled through the archives of The Baltimore Sun for a two-year period. They cover most police-involved deaths, but no newspaper covers more than a minuscule subset of use-of-force incidents.

So no wonder protestors are out in Baltimore after this latest death.

No wonder that a meeting on police brutality this week had to be moved to a bigger venue because so many Baltimore residents are concerned enough to come out in person. "Dozens of residents—most of them black—inundated federal officials with their assertions that city police have been brutalizing residents with impunity," a just-published Baltimore Sun article reports. It includes a quote from a 35-year-old who asked the feds, "When are you all going to help us?"

Lots of links in the original article.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Alcibiades on April 27, 2015, 11:36:25 PM
Looting and burning continuing it seems.  Malls being looted, liquor stores of course, and the "rioters" are cutting fire-hoses so that the fire department can't put out the fires.  Oh yeah, and attacking all firefighters and white people in sight as well.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Alcibiades on April 27, 2015, 11:44:03 PM
Found seedy : https://twitter.com/shomaristone/status/592872463610073088
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 27, 2015, 11:46:40 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 27, 2015, 11:44:03 PM
Found seedy : https://twitter.com/shomaristone/status/592872463610073088 (https://twitter.com/shomaristone/status/592872463610073088)

Okay, that is pretty fucking cool.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 28, 2015, 12:03:29 AM
Been busy working on his tan, I see.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Syt on April 28, 2015, 03:41:45 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/27/baltimore-police-protesters-violence-freddie-gray

QuoteBaltimore protests turn into riots as mayor declares state of emergency

Troops from the US national guard began rolling into Baltimore in armoured vehicles after violent clashes, looting and fires led city authorities to declare a week-long curfew banning people from the streets at night.

At least 27 people were arrested after intense rioting broke out following the funeral service for Freddie Gray, a young black man who died last week of injuries sustained after his arrest. Fifteen police officers were injured in Monday night's unrest, six of them seriously, according to chiefs.

Young people began hurling bricks and bottles at police in riot gear soon after Gray was buried in the afternoon. Shops in the Mondawmin mall were looted and police cars were set on fire and smashed – one while an officer remained seated inside.

"This is not protesting, this is not your first amendment rights, this is just criminal activity," said police commissioner Anthony Batts, declaring he was "supremely disappointed in what's happened in our beautiful city".

Repeatedly condemning the rioters as "thugs", Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said a city-wide curfew between 10pm and 5am would be imposed for a week beginning on Tuesday night.

As the chaotic scenes unfolded there was an appeal for calm from Gray's family. "I think the violence is wrong," his twin sister, Fredericka, said late on Monday.

Gray, 25, died in hospital on 19 April, a week after he sustained a broken neck and lapsed into a coma. He had been arrested a week earlier, having been chased by officers for "catching the eye" of a lieutenant and running away. A knife was found in his pocket. Six officers have been suspended and a criminal inquiry into Gray's death is under way.

His funeral on Monday was followed by violent scenes. Crowds were shot at by police using teargas grenades, so-called "less lethal" bullets and pepper balls, which explode to release an irritant.

Passersby and reporters were among those struck. At least one officer was seen throwing a brick back at protesters.

Governor Larry Hogan of Maryland declared a state of emergency, activating the state's 5,000 national guard personnel with an executive order declaring the need "to protect the lives and property of citizens". Batts said the troops would protect buildings. President Barack Obama was briefed on the crisis in Washington by Loretta Lynch, his new attorney general.

As night fell several fires burned across the city. In one instance firefighters trying to extinguish a blaze at a pharmacy were set back by a rioter with a knife who slashed a hose connected to a hydrant.

In east Baltimore flames engulfed a construction project due to become a 60-unit building to house low-income elderly people. City authorities said it was unclear whether the fire was linked to the riots.

Baltimore's authorities announced that the public school system would be closed on Tuesday, leaving more than 80,000 students without classes to attend amid an atmosphere of seething discontentment with police and the city administration.

Struggling to keep up with events, Mayor Rawlings-Blake said at her own press conference: "I am at a loss for words ... It is idiotic to think that by destroying your city you're going to make life better for anybody."

Police had put the city on alert earlier on Monday after claiming to have intelligence of a violent threat. Batts explained late in the evening police understood the Bloods, Crips and Black Guerilla Family gangs had met and each pledged to kill a police officer.

However the unrest appeared instead to have been sparked by a younger crowd of high school students left milling around the neighborhood near the site of Gray's funeral by the cancellation of public transport.

"They thought it was cute to throw cinder blocks at police," said Batts.

The rioting on Monday night followed scattered vandalism and looting after peaceful protests on Saturday.

Gray's case is the latest flashpoint for demonstrators who accuse American police of killing young black men without justification. Cellphone video footage showed him being dragged into the police van while yelling in pain. One of his legs appeared limp. However police have indicated his neck was broken after this point, while declining to provide details.

Police chiefs admitted officers failed to provide Gray with medical attention despite his requests and failed to seatbelt him in the van. Past prisoners in Baltimore have described "rough rides" in which police vehicles are seemingly deliberately driven erratically to injure passengers.

Gray travelled with his hands cuffed behind his back and his legs in restraints. A second man was collected by the van during the journey. The man, whose name has not been released, is said to have given police an account of what he saw inside the vehicle.

Hillary Clinton, the former secretary of state and 2016 Democratic presidential hopeful, said in a tweet she was "praying for peace and safety" for all in Baltimore. Clinton described Gray's death as "a tragedy that demands answers".
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 28, 2015, 09:19:15 PM
 
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 27, 2015, 11:36:25 PM
Looting and burning continuing it seems.  Malls being looted, liquor stores of course, and the "rioters" are cutting fire-hoses so that the fire department can't put out the fires.  Oh yeah, and attacking all firefighters and white people in sight as well.

Lovely.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Jaron on April 28, 2015, 09:50:30 PM
Remind me why the 13th amendment was a good thing again?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
Pity it had to come to this to get authorities to perhaps notice the dangerous destabilizing effects of the militarization of the police forces. Years of people making constructive critiques of the issue and asking for reforms clearly didn't go anywhere or make much of an impact.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 09:12:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
Pity it had to come to this to get authorities to perhaps notice the dangerous destabilizing effects of the militarization of the police forces. Years of people making constructive critiques of the issue and asking for reforms clearly didn't go anywhere or make much of an impact.

What destabilizing effects are those?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on April 29, 2015, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 09:12:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
Pity it had to come to this to get authorities to perhaps notice the dangerous destabilizing effects of the militarization of the police forces. Years of people making constructive critiques of the issue and asking for reforms clearly didn't go anywhere or make much of an impact.

What destabilizing effects are those?
The mindset where citizens become civilians, and when having effective weapons means having an AR-15 in the trunk rather than good community relations.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on April 29, 2015, 09:43:15 AM
Pfft. Wussy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on April 29, 2015, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2015, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 09:12:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
Pity it had to come to this to get authorities to perhaps notice the dangerous destabilizing effects of the militarization of the police forces. Years of people making constructive critiques of the issue and asking for reforms clearly didn't go anywhere or make much of an impact.

What destabilizing effects are those?
The mindset where citizens become civilians, and when having effective weapons means having an AR-15 in the trunk rather than good community relations.

Indeed.

There is more at work here than just the militarization, of course. The racism involved in what is happening in some of these places has little to do with that directly.

But I think DG is very right here - all this military gear comes along with a military mindset, where there is this culture of "Us vs. Them" in some parts of the police force. Where the civilians become seen not as citizens deserving protection, but rather potential or actual combatants in a war that pits the police against the non-police.

We need good, effective police officers, not soldiers. I do actually think ex-soldiers can make good police officers, and I actually suspect (maybe this is wishful thinking) that the worst police officers are wanna-be soldiers, rather than actual ex-soldiers. But at the end of the day, the culture needs some changing in some of these places where the height of police "cool" is a APC with plenty of automatic weapons.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 29, 2015, 10:15:57 AM
There is more at work here than just the militarization, of course. The racism involved in what is happening in some of these places has little to do with that directly.

It is the effect of one upon the other.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 29, 2015, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 09:12:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
Pity it had to come to this to get authorities to perhaps notice the dangerous destabilizing effects of the militarization of the police forces. Years of people making constructive critiques of the issue and asking for reforms clearly didn't go anywhere or make much of an impact.

What destabilizing effects are those?
The mindset where citizens become civilians, and when having effective weapons means having an AR-15 in the trunk rather than good community relations.

And this caused the riot?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
And this caused the riot?

Well we have not had major riots like this since the 1960s. Mistrust of the police and authorities also featured there completely coincidentally. Or not so coincidentally.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2015, 11:34:51 AM
O's are playing to an empty house today.  Fans were locked out.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
Seems like a chicken or egg kinda thing.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2015, 12:49:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
Seems like a chicken or egg kinda thing. 

The fans of the militarization of the police would have you believe that, but the militarization of the police pretty clearly isn't related to the threat to the police, and instead is almost entirely a factor of the availability of military equipment and production capability as the military numbers declined with the end of the Cold War.

I agree with berkut; the police these days seem less and less like citizens of the community protecting other citizens of the community from violence and lawlessness, and more and more like an occupying army trying merely to keep some semblance of order.

I think that militarization has also been influenced by the declining number of local police per head of the populace, but I think that that is a secondary effect.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2015, 11:34:51 AM
O's are playing to an empty house today.  Fans were locked out.

Yeah probably the best decision. Wish I could be there. That would be an amazing sight...the game, not the rioting.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 02:01:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
Seems like a chicken or egg kinda thing.

Whether the police forces who took the surplus military equipment wanted to play soldier before getting the equipment or whether obtaining the equipment caused them to want to play soldier?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 02:32:06 PM
I hope they kill some of the pigs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 03:30:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 02:32:06 PM
I hope they kill some of the pigs.

:huh:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 03:42:57 PM
I like pork. :mmm:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 02:01:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
Seems like a chicken or egg kinda thing.

Whether the police forces who took the surplus military equipment wanted to play soldier before getting the equipment or whether obtaining the equipment caused them to want to play soldier?

Ah, forgot where I was when I posted that.  Never mind.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:14:20 PM
I have to say that I'm not sad to be missing out on all this post-racial controversy that has been going on in the waning days of Obama.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:14:20 PM
I have to say that I'm not sad to be missing out on all this post-racial controversy that has been going on in the waning days of Obama.

I am not sure what the Obama administration coming to an end has to do with it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:18:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:14:20 PM
I have to say that I'm not sad to be missing out on all this post-racial controversy that has been going on in the waning days of Obama.

I am not sure what the Obama administration coming to an end has to do with it.

Oh nothing. It was just that there had been so many hopes of America becoming more post-racial when we elected a black president. :(
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 04:23:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:18:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:14:20 PM
I have to say that I'm not sad to be missing out on all this post-racial controversy that has been going on in the waning days of Obama.

I am not sure what the Obama administration coming to an end has to do with it.

Oh nothing. It was just that there had been so many hopes of America becoming more post-racial when we elected a black president. :(

Perhaps the people who voted for him thought that might occur but the picture depicting Obama as a monkey (and its popularity) probably alerted everyone to the fact that it would take more than one black president to move the US to a post-racial society.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
People were depicting Dubya as a monkey and it even made its way on to t-shirts.  I guess we're only allowed to ridicule our authority figures if they're white.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on April 29, 2015, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 29, 2015, 10:15:57 AM
There is more at work here than just the militarization, of course. The racism involved in what is happening in some of these places has little to do with that directly.

It is the effect of one upon the other.

The military is probably the most well-integrated part of our society.  Race relations are one area where police forces might benefit from being more like the military.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2015, 06:57:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
People were depicting Dubya as a monkey and it even made its way on to t-shirts.  I guess we're only allowed to ridicule use a money as a symbol for our authority figures if they're white.

Fixed that, and duh!  You are smarter than to post that shit.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2015, 06:59:15 PM
Quote from: dps on April 29, 2015, 06:47:23 PM
The military is probably the most well-integrated part of our society.  Race relations are one area where police forces might benefit from being more like the military.

I also think the military has a lot more respect for "civilians" than the average cop, sad though that is to say.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on April 29, 2015, 07:36:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 02:01:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
Seems like a chicken or egg kinda thing.

Whether the police forces who took the surplus military equipment wanted to play soldier before getting the equipment or whether obtaining the equipment caused them to want to play soldier?

Ah, forgot where I was when I posted that.  Never mind.

:lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on April 29, 2015, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2015, 06:59:15 PM
Quote from: dps on April 29, 2015, 06:47:23 PM
The military is probably the most well-integrated part of our society.  Race relations are one area where police forces might benefit from being more like the military.

I also think the military has a lot more respect for "civilians" than the average cop, sad though that is to say.

Interesting statement, but true.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
And this caused the riot?

Well we have not had major riots like this since the 1960s. Mistrust of the police and authorities also featured there completely coincidentally. Or not so coincidentally.

:huh:   I'm fairly certain we have.  Big one in 1992.  Smaller one in Cinncy a decade ago.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: HVC on April 29, 2015, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
People were depicting Dubya as a monkey and it even made its way on to t-shirts.  I guess we're only allowed to ridicule our authority figures if they're white.
even you have to know that the context of these two situations is very different.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2015, 04:18:54 PM
Oh nothing. It was just that there had been so many hopes of America becoming more post-racial when we elected a black president. :(

It's a process.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
And this caused the riot?

Well we have not had major riots like this since the 1960s. Mistrust of the police and authorities also featured there completely coincidentally. Or not so coincidentally.

:huh:   I'm fairly certain we have.  Big one in 1992.  Smaller one in Cinncy a decade ago.

*sigh*

But hey what triggered the 1992 one....hmmmmmm

But you see nothing socially destabilizing about it? Not sure what so say.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 30, 2015, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2015, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
And this caused the riot?

Well we have not had major riots like this since the 1960s. Mistrust of the police and authorities also featured there completely coincidentally. Or not so coincidentally.

:huh:   I'm fairly certain we have.  Big one in 1992.  Smaller one in Cinncy a decade ago.

*sigh*

But hey what triggered the 1992 one....hmmmmmm

A guy beaten up by cops using night sticks.  I'm not sure what it has to do with militarization.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 11:56:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbDcDaNJ7eo

Mom bitch slaps son for acting up in riots.  Fun starts around 2:20.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Monoriu on April 30, 2015, 03:10:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 11:56:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbDcDaNJ7eo

Mom bitch slaps son for acting up in riots.  Fun starts around 2:20.

Happened a lot in HK last year.  Angry parents saw their kids sleeping on the roads on TV and went out to drag them back home.  It was a like a generational war. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 30, 2015, 08:17:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 11:56:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbDcDaNJ7eo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbDcDaNJ7eo)

Mom bitch slaps son for acting up in riots.  Fun starts around 2:20.

Good mom.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 30, 2015, 09:36:19 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 29, 2015, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
People were depicting Dubya as a monkey and it even made its way on to t-shirts.  I guess we're only allowed to ridicule our authority figures if they're white.
even you have to know that the context of these two situations is very different.

Why is it different?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 30, 2015, 09:37:52 PM
Anyway, anyone hear from Seedy if he got anything good from the CVS or from that local family-owned sporting goods store?  Hope he at least scored a new pair of kicks.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on April 30, 2015, 09:50:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 30, 2015, 09:37:52 PM
Anyway, anyone hear from Seedy if he got anything good from the CVS or from that local family-owned sporting goods store?  Hope he at least scored a new pair of kicks.

Those keep gettin' harder to find.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on April 30, 2015, 09:52:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 30, 2015, 09:37:52 PM
Anyway, anyone hear from Seedy if he got anything good from the CVS or from that local family-owned sporting goods store?  Hope he at least scored a new pair of kicks.

He's just kicking back watching it on CNN.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on April 30, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
I'd steal all the weave and corner the market.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on April 30, 2015, 09:57:54 PM
Wig stores don't last 5 minutes in a riot.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on April 30, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
That is why I have my loot bags ready at all times.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 10:45:14 AM
Officers charged in Baltimore.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 10:48:48 AM
Man 2?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 30, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
That is why I have my loot bags ready at all times.

If a black cop shoots a white perp I'm looting the hell out of a Bass Pro.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on May 01, 2015, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 10:48:48 AM
Man 2?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html

They're pretty much all being charged with official misconduct and manslaughter; a couple are being charged with false imprisonment, and one's being charged with homicide.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 30, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
That is why I have my loot bags ready at all times.

If a black cop shoots a white perp I'm looting the hell out of a Bass Pro.

We'll you would be only one dumb enough to try to loot a store where the people there have rifles.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 01, 2015, 11:28:12 AM
Shotguns work too.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 11:32:40 AM
Things you don't loot:

Stores carrying guns
Military installations
shops owned by Koreans
Your own damn home
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on May 01, 2015, 11:35:41 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 11:32:40 AM
Things you don't loot:

Your own damn home
It would be the perfect crime.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DontSayBanana on May 01, 2015, 11:41:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 11:32:40 AM
Things you don't loot:

...
Your own damn home

Given how frequently my porn stash was confiscated by my father, teenage me totally would have. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 11:41:52 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 01, 2015, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 10:48:48 AM
Man 2?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html

They're pretty much all being charged with official misconduct and manslaughter; a couple are being charged with false imprisonment, and one's being charged with homicide.

Good news.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on May 01, 2015, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 11:41:52 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 01, 2015, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 10:48:48 AM
Man 2?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html

They're pretty much all being charged with official misconduct and manslaughter; a couple are being charged with false imprisonment, and one's being charged with homicide.

Good news.
Is it? Either they are guilty and a trial will prove it or they are guilty and a trial will let them off (as so often happens) or they are not guilty and the politicians needed to make an example out of someone.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 12:11:23 PM
You can see the State Attorney's press conference here

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/baltimore-unrest/freddie-gray-n351881
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 12:37:37 PM
What a load of horseshit. The intern who wrote this is tripping over himself so much to make it seem like the cops were justified that he can't even speak intellible English. A shoot out with a cuffed woman in the back of a police car? Really?

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/woman-killed-in-shootout-with-atlanta-police-ident/nk65N/

Quote
A woman killed in a Thursday afternoon shootout with police near Underground Atlanta was a 26-year-old mother of two with a long police record that includes eight arrests in Fulton County dating back to 2006.

The Fulton Medical Examiner's office Friday identified the woman as Alexia Christian.

According to county jail records, Christian was most recently arrested by East Point police in March for selling marijuana, and by Atlanta police in January for shoplifting. Three of her prior arrests involved charges of auto theft. In two of those arrests, she was also charged with obstructing officers, jail records show.
Police investigate how handcuffed woman fired gun at officers gallery
Police investigate how handcuffed woman fired gun at officers

Steps away from the Underground Atlanta police precinct, and within a block of the Fulton County courthouse and administration building where Brian Nichols killed three people just over 10 years ago, officers shot and killed Christian after she allegedly fired shots from the backseat of a patrol car about 5 p.m.

It all began when Christian, who police believed had stolen a car, was put into the back of a patrol car, Atlanta police said Thursday night. But somehow, and it wasn't known how, Christian had a gun and fired shots at two officers, Major Darin Schierbaum said. Officers returned fire, striking Christian at least twice, Schierbaum said. No officers were injured.

The sound of gunshots was startling to those near the  downtown intersection of Martin Luther King Jr. Drive and Pryor Street just as the afternoon rush hour was beginning.

Valencia Riden said she heard six or seven shots as she approached the intersection, but wasn't sure where the shots were fired. And she didn't stop to ask.

As some witnesses took cover, others downtown found themselves stranded as officers quickly closed roads in the area and an Underground parking deck. Most had no idea what had happened, but there was no mistaken what they'd heard.

"We heard three shots," said Tressa Madden, who was trying to cross the street at the time. "We heard three more shots and everybody ran back across the street."

Madden saw an officer fire a shot, but she wasn't sure at whom he was firing.

Witnesses watched as officers pulled Christian from the patrol car and administered CPR. The woman was then loaded into the back of an ambulance and driven to Grady Memorial Hospital, where she later died.

Officers surrounded the patrol car, its windows shattered, where gunfire was exchanged for the investigation into what happened.

At a time when the use of deadly force by police is facing increasing scrutiny, Atlanta police began releasing details about the incident within the hour, leading up to a news conference shortly before 7 p.m.

"Atlanta police commanders wanted to release information as quickly as it could be confirmed," police spokesman Sgt. Greg Lyon said. "We owe it to the people we serve to be as transparent as we can in these types of situations."

Schierbaum said he also couldn't confirm whether the woman was searched and handcuffed prior to being put in the back of the patrol car. The patrol car's front and back windshields had gaping holes from gunshots while officers investigated the shooting.

Some roads in the area were temporarily closed during the investigation to give officers space. A parking deck near Underground was also temporary closed. Later Thursday evening, officers cleared the scene, re-opening roads and the parking deck.

The names of the officers involved were not released.

Police officials have also not said if Christian was under arrest when the incident occurred or if she was frisked before being put in the back of the patrol car. However, Channel 2 reported that Christian was handcuffed before she was placed in the vehicle.

"At this time," Atlanta police Sgt. Greg Lyon told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Friday morning, "we are not releasing additional info about the incident."

Chief George Turner is scheduled to discuss the fatal shooting at a 2:30 p.m. press conference at police headquarters, Lyon said.

The incident was the department's second officer-involved shooting this year.

Yuric J. Ussery, 22, was shot and wounded while fleeing police April 8 after two officers, who were part of a crime-suppression unit, tried to stop him for jaywalking in the Mechanicsville neighborhood. Instead, Ussery fled and the pursing officers said they shot him after he pointed a gun at them.

There were nine shootings involving Atlanta police officers in 2014, department spokeswoman Elizabeth Espy said.

— Staff writers Ty Tagami, Rhonda Cook and David Wickert contributed to this article.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 01, 2015, 12:43:35 PM
It could happen.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 12:46:31 PM
If cops said it it must be a lie.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on May 01, 2015, 12:47:42 PM
Seems like there would be better ways to do it if they really wanted to off this person.  Like...pretty much anything that doesn't involve shooting her while she's still in their car.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 01, 2015, 12:43:35 PM
It could happen.
Yes, it could happen. However, I'm no longer inclined to give the police the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2015, 01:13:25 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on May 01, 2015, 12:47:42 PM
Seems like there would be better ways to do it if they really wanted to off this person.  Like...pretty much anything that doesn't involve shooting her while she's still in their car.

If police officers always did the smartest thing things would be a lot better.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2015, 05:15:38 PM
The driver, the one charged with murder, is black.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 05:41:03 PM
Ted Cruz says all this is Obama's fault... somehow.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 07:35:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 30, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
That is why I have my loot bags ready at all times.

If a black cop shoots a white perp I'm looting the hell out of a Bass Pro.

We'll you would be only one dumb enough to try to loot a store where the people there have rifles.

Good place to stock up on rifles.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 07:37:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 05:41:03 PM
Ted Cruz says all this is Obama's fault... somehow.

Well, he didn't prevent it, did he?? 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:04:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 07:35:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 30, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
That is why I have my loot bags ready at all times.

If a black cop shoots a white perp I'm looting the hell out of a Bass Pro.

We'll you would be only one dumb enough to try to loot a store where the people there have rifles.

Good place to stock up on rifles.

And shitty Duck Commander merch.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on May 01, 2015, 08:05:58 PM
Plus lures, bait, moon pies, a boat.  Maybe even snag me a stuffed bear.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:08:39 PM
Moon pies? I'm off to loot!
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 02, 2015, 12:54:04 AM
Four months make a big difference.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAbsZ5bn.png&hash=a94fdcb15012f6eab4243a553e43fdb0d64a3106) (http://imgur.com/AbsZ5bn)
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on May 02, 2015, 12:38:42 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:08:39 PM
Moon pies? I'm off to loot!

Figured the moon pies would do it.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: derspiess on May 02, 2015, 12:39:44 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 01, 2015, 12:43:35 PM
It could happen.
Yes, it could happen. However, I'm no longer inclined to give the police the benefit of the doubt.

Lol TIMMAHZ WITH ATTITUDE.  Straight outta da suburb.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on May 02, 2015, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 02, 2015, 12:39:44 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 01, 2015, 12:43:35 PM
It could happen.
Yes, it could happen. However, I'm no longer inclined to give the police the benefit of the doubt.

Lol TIMMAHZ WITH ATTITUDE.  Straight outta da suburb.

He's going to loot the Barnes and Nobles.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Ed Anger on May 02, 2015, 02:30:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 02, 2015, 12:38:42 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:08:39 PM
Moon pies? I'm off to loot!

Figured the moon pies would do it.

Damn right. Moon Pies ubers alles.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Razgovory on May 02, 2015, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 01, 2015, 08:08:39 PM
Moon pies? I'm off to loot!

You be careful, you know what happened last time.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgvZXUMA.jpg&hash=8c37e752d1b4c37a65019e1db97e633da68db846)

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 06, 2015, 10:30:13 PM
One of the cops charged in the Baltimore case was suicidal and violently unstable.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/05/freddie-gray-baltimore-police-brian-rice?CMP=ema_565
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Fate on May 07, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
So, I'm moving up to Baltimore this June. I was visiting last weekend during the curfew to apartment hunt. Sucks for the small businesses, but it was perfect timing to negotiate a lower rental price.  :menace: It was eerie watching national guard patrol the Inner Harbor area and see MRAP/Humvee convoys going through downtown. Got a photo with the squad who were guarding the entrance to the Johns Hopkins emergency room. I doubt I'll see that again in my lifetime (well, maybe again when they acquit the cops, LA style.)

I also drove around Sandtown-Winchester (Freddie Gray's 'hood) for fun. It's fucking third world over there.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:53:09 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 06, 2015, 10:30:13 PM
One of the cops charged in the Baltimore case was suicidal and violently unstable.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/05/freddie-gray-baltimore-police-brian-rice?CMP=ema_565

Just one?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2015, 12:16:02 AM
Nine Georgia deputies fired after 22 year old dies in custody.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mathew-ajibade-nine-georgia-deputies-fired-after-22-year-olds-n356551
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on May 10, 2015, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Fate on May 07, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
So, I'm moving up to Baltimore this June. I was visiting last weekend during the curfew to apartment hunt. Sucks for the small businesses, but it was perfect timing to negotiate a lower rental price.  :menace: It was eerie watching national guard patrol the Inner Harbor area and see MRAP/Humvee convoys going through downtown. Got a photo with the squad who were guarding the entrance to the Johns Hopkins emergency room. I doubt I'll see that again in my lifetime (well, maybe again when they acquit the cops, LA style.)

I also drove around Sandtown-Winchester (Freddie Gray's 'hood) for fun. It's fucking third world over there.

You are moving there why? Detroit too close to Canada?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: grumbler on May 10, 2015, 09:49:32 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 10, 2015, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Fate on May 07, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
So, I'm moving up to Baltimore this June. I was visiting last weekend during the curfew to apartment hunt. Sucks for the small businesses, but it was perfect timing to negotiate a lower rental price.  :menace: It was eerie watching national guard patrol the Inner Harbor area and see MRAP/Humvee convoys going through downtown. Got a photo with the squad who were guarding the entrance to the Johns Hopkins emergency room. I doubt I'll see that again in my lifetime (well, maybe again when they acquit the cops, LA style.)

I also drove around Sandtown-Winchester (Freddie Gray's 'hood) for fun. It's fucking third world over there.

You are moving there why? Detroit too close to Canada?

Johns Hopkins Medical Center is a pretty good place for doctors-in-training to be.  Drive due south from Detroit if you want to go to Canada.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Malthus on May 10, 2015, 10:00:20 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 10, 2015, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Fate on May 07, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
So, I'm moving up to Baltimore this June. I was visiting last weekend during the curfew to apartment hunt. Sucks for the small businesses, but it was perfect timing to negotiate a lower rental price.  :menace: It was eerie watching national guard patrol the Inner Harbor area and see MRAP/Humvee convoys going through downtown. Got a photo with the squad who were guarding the entrance to the Johns Hopkins emergency room. I doubt I'll see that again in my lifetime (well, maybe again when they acquit the cops, LA style.)

I also drove around Sandtown-Winchester (Freddie Gray's 'hood) for fun. It's fucking third world over there.

You are moving there why? Detroit too close to Canada?

The pure joy of being a "have" among a whole bunch of "have-nots"?  :hmm:

I think, though, the answer is that pretty well the only industry in Baltimore that is actually growing is the health-care industry.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on May 10, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 10, 2015, 09:49:32 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 10, 2015, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Fate on May 07, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
So, I'm moving up to Baltimore this June. I was visiting last weekend during the curfew to apartment hunt. Sucks for the small businesses, but it was perfect timing to negotiate a lower rental price.  :menace: It was eerie watching national guard patrol the Inner Harbor area and see MRAP/Humvee convoys going through downtown. Got a photo with the squad who were guarding the entrance to the Johns Hopkins emergency room. I doubt I'll see that again in my lifetime (well, maybe again when they acquit the cops, LA style.)

I also drove around Sandtown-Winchester (Freddie Gray's 'hood) for fun. It's fucking third world over there.

You are moving there why? Detroit too close to Canada?

Johns Hopkins Medical Center is a pretty good place for doctors-in-training to be.  Drive due south from Detroit if you want to go to Canada.
That is true. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: 11B4V on May 10, 2015, 11:06:20 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/09/police-officers-shot-hattiesburg-miss/27072641/
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on May 10, 2015, 12:43:15 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 10, 2015, 11:06:20 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/09/police-officers-shot-hattiesburg-miss/27072641/
I guess if nothing else it means Scips is getting some business.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: PDH on May 10, 2015, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: Fate on May 07, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
So, I'm moving up to Baltimore this June.

My cousin is in post-doc/residency stuff at Johns Hopkins now.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 07:32:17 PM
The Madison WI DA declined to press charges against a white cop who shot and killed a "biracial" young man.

Very fortunately for Madison, the DA is a also half black.

Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2015, 07:39:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 07:32:17 PM
The Madison WI DA declined to press charges against a white cop who shot and killed a "biracial" young man.

Very fortunately for Madison, the DA is a also half black.
I think we need a lot more information than that to judge whether or not he should have been charged or not.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 07:44:09 PM
That's a rockin' thought you had there Timmy.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 12, 2015, 07:46:47 PM
QuoteWhite officer will not be charged in Wisconsin shooting
Associated Press By TODD RICHMOND
25 minutes ago

Wochit

Wisconsin Police Officer Who Killed Black Teenager Won't Be Charged

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A white Wisconsin police officer won't be charged for fatally shooting an unarmed 19-year-old biracial man, a prosecutor announced Tuesday, prompting peaceful demonstrations but none of the immediate violence that has hit some other U.S. cities.

Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne said he wouldn't file charges against Madison Officer Matt Kenny in the March 6 death of Tony Robinson, saying the officer used lawful deadly force after he was staggered by a punch to the head and feared for his life.

Ozanne, mopping his brow repeatedly but speaking forcefully for some 25 minutes, took pains to outline his own biracial heritage before announcing his decision.

"I am the son of a black woman who still worries about my safety," Ozanne said. "I am a man who understands the pain of unjustified profiling and I am the first district attorney of color not only in Dane County but in the state of Wisconsin."

Then, Ozanne walked through evidence from the scene, 911 callers, Robinson's friends, police affidavits, crime lab reports and more to paint a picture of a young man out of control from a mix of hallucinogenic mushrooms, marijuana and Xanax. Officer Kenny rushed to the apartment building, and immediately became concerned that Robinson was attacking someone upstairs. He fired his weapon only after he was punched in the head and feared he might be disarmed and killed, Ozanne said.

"I conclude that (Robinson's) tragic and unfortunate death was the result of a lawful use of deadly police force and that no charges should be brought against Officer Kenny in the death of Tony Robinson Jr.," Ozanne said. He quickly wrapped up and left to meet Robinson family members.

Demonstrators walk down East Washington Avenue to protest the shooting of Tony Robinson at the state ...
Robinson's mother, Andrea Irwin, said she was not surprised by the decision. The investigation wasn't thorough enough, she said.

"They could have done a lot. What they didn't do was give my son any respect," she said. But family members, as they have since the shooting, asked that protests remain peaceful.

About 100 people gathered at Robinson's apartment house in the wake of Ozanne's decision. One of them, Jivonte Davis, 19, said he had known Robinson since the fifth grade.

"I can go out and break stuff and do anything I want right now," Davis said. "But rioting and everything, what would that achieve? We're no Ferguson, we're no Baltimore. We're going to do this the right way. We're going to do this peacefully."

The protesters, eventually estimated by police at 250 to 300 people, began marching to the state Capitol about a mile a half away. Some had dogs and strollers and were bound for a nearby church for a prayer service. Marchers chanted "No justice, no peace, no racist police," and held a banner that read "Justice for Tony." They eventually dispersed.

One lead group in organizing earlier protests, the Young, Gifted and Black Coalition, had earlier announced plans to demonstrate on Wednesday.

Robinson's death forced Madison — a liberal bastion that is home of the University of Wisconsin and the state capital — to confront racial divisions. Blacks make up about 7 percent of the population but more than that in arrests, incarceration and poverty. One demand from the Young, Gifted and Black group was to drop plans to renovate the county jail and free 350 black inmates.

Police Chief Mike Koval wrote in a blog post following Ozanne's announcement that the city was at a crossroads, with the chance to show that "civic dissent and even acts of civil disobedience" can co-exist with police. Koval's post included how protesters could avoid the most damaging arrests, and he posted a list of ordinance violations, misdemeanors and "protected activities" complete with fine amounts for the violations.

But police were also ready for the possibility of violence. A Madison police captain warned city leaders before Ozanne's decision that police had received threats from reliable sources that gang members planned violence against police officers, according to an email sent the leaders provided to The Associated Press.

The shooting was another in a series of police confrontations that have ignited racial tension across the nation in the past year. Most recently in Baltimore, riots erupted after the funeral for Freddie Gray, a black man who suffered a fatal spinal injury while in police custody. Other high-profile cases of officers killing unarmed black residents include the deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri; Eric Garner in New York City; and Walter Scott in North Charleston, South Carolina.

Six officers involved in Gray's death have been charged, as has the officer who killed Scott. Grand juries declined to charge the officers involved in Brown's and Garner's deaths.

___

http://news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-no-charges-against-white-police-officer-202245689.html (http://news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-no-charges-against-white-police-officer-202245689.html)

Here you go.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2015, 10:13:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 07:44:09 PM
That's a rockin' thought you had there Timmy.
And your post was an intellectual analysis of race relations in Wisconsin?
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 10:17:09 PM
It was not.  What a silly question.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2015, 07:52:22 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 07:32:17 PM
The Madison WI DA declined to press charges against a white cop who shot and killed a "biracial" young man.

Very fortunately for Madison, the DA is a also half black.

Everybody in authority was black in Baltimore, so it is not a fail-safe.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: DGuller on May 13, 2015, 08:57:18 AM
I think that there is far too much focus on black/white here.  It's really about accountability, both on the police and the prosecution side.  It just so happens that lack of real accountability, and collusion between police and prosecutors, is usually made more apparent when black suspects are involved.  That said, white people suffer from that as well occasionally, just google Michael Bell (again in Wisconsin).
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2015, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2015, 08:57:18 AM
I think that there is far too much focus on black/white here.  It's really about accountability, both on the police and the prosecution side.  It just so happens that lack of real accountability, and collusion between police and prosecutors, is usually made more apparent when black suspects are involved.  That said, white people suffer from that as well occasionally, just google Michael Bell (again in Wisconsin).

Yep. They are a good indicator since social ills that impact everybody typically fall on the black people the hardest.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 14, 2015, 06:11:11 AM
I'm skeptical that this is as unprecedented as they make out.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/st-louis-policing-system-dangerous-study-finds-n353426
QuoteSt. Louis Policing System Is 'Dangerous,' Study Finds
By Tracy Connor

Many of the police departments in St. Louis County, Missouri — where the death of Michael Brown sparked weeks of unrest — have adopted making money as a "grossly inappropriate" mission and abandoned community-oriented policing, a new study has concluded.

"It is a dysfunctional and dangerous situation that cannot be sustained," the Washington-based Police Executive Research Forum wrote in the highly critical report issued Monday.

"We have never before encountered what we saw in parts of St. Louis County," Chuck Wexler, the executive director of the forum, said in a statement.

The group was retained by a non-profit called Better Together in the wake of the Aug. 9 shooting of Brown, an unarmed teen, in Ferguson.

It found the fragmented nature of policing — there are 58 separate departments, some covering territory that's less than one square mile — is ineffective and has led to a patchwork of standards and policies.

Just as disturbing, the report found, is that priorities are often not driven by public safety needs of local residents.

"Police departments are being pushed into the role of revenue generators for their cities and towns. They are being diverted away from their traditional roles of community guardians and protectors," it said.

"This situation is driving a wedge between police and citizens in far too many communities. It is undermining the legitimacy of the police in the eyes of residents, community leaders, and business owners—not just in the communities where policing is in crisis, but in the region as a whole, whose reputation continues to suffer."

The report's recommendations include a regional training center; consistent standards for hiring, training and use of force; consolidate clusters of police departments into single forces.

The study's findings are in line with the Department of Justice report that identified patterns of racial bias within the Ferguson police department, with officers using force, traffic stops and petty, money-making citations disproportionately against blacks. NBC News also reported on ticket blitzes in St. Louis' predominately black suburbs.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: Berkut on May 14, 2015, 10:18:01 AM
It is likely an outlier in the extremity of the effect, but hardly an outlier in the fundamental problem that police forces have either lost or been diverted from their  primary mission.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: dps on May 14, 2015, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 14, 2015, 10:18:01 AM
It is likely an outlier in the extremity of the effect, but hardly an outlier in the fundamental problem that police forces have either lost or been diverted from their  primary mission.

In some of the smaller jurisdictions, I doubt that the police ever had any mission other than to generate revenue.  Speed traps are hardly anything new (according to dictionary.com, the term originated in the first half of the 1920s) and some towns only founded police forces in order to give out-of-town motorists speeding tickets.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: garbon on May 16, 2015, 11:09:50 AM
http://time.com/3857023/national-police-week-war-on-police/

QuoteWar on Police Is Causing Violence To Increase

Eighteen people have been murdered, and dozens more shot in Baltimore since the riots in response to the death of Freddie Gray. There are now 22 more murders in Baltimore so far this year than during a comparable period last year. Even New York, the safest large city in America, has seen a material increase in homicides and shooting.

Most talking heads attribute the uptick in criminal violence to causes such as poverty, lack of family, racism, too many guns, and too much drug use. Society must work to counter these ills immediately and over the long term. But these are not problems that can be solved this year or next, and many lives will continue to be lost in the interim unless we do something. The best and only way to ensure a reduction of crime in real time—to prevent more people from dying today, tomorrow, next week and the following weeks—is to police professionally and effectively.

The number one civil right is to be free from harm. Police officers stand between civil society and chaos. This gives police no license to be brutal, overly aggressive or in violation of the law—the rare criminal who wears a blue uniform should be stripped of it and prosecuted. But the more than 99% of our officers who do their jobs with integrity and good intent must be empowered to do their jobs without overly burdensome laws, regulations,or administrative burdens that neuter them against murderers, drug peddlers, rapists, thieves, and others who disrespect the law and all it works to protect.

Police must fundamentally believe that the citizens and politicians whom they protect and answer to both value and respect what they do. When the president and attorney general of the United States say that we have a major problem with policing in this country, and when mayors of major cities declare that the police are brutal, our so-called leaders send a demoralizing message to the vast majority of committed and dedicated police officers that they are unappreciated and unprotected.

When the state's attorney in Baltimore publicly announces the indictment of six police officers while using the protestor's phrase "no justice, no peace," she tells police officers that they will not be held to the same standard of impartiality and presumption of innocence as enjoyed by every American. For what appears to be political expediency—and what can at best can be described as prosecutorial grandstanding—she communicates to the police officers that she has made up her mind about their guilt.

While the most dedicated police officers will continue to work hard, many officers and their unions will interpret the words and actions of politicians and prosecutors as an invitation to do the absolute minimum. Worse, they will fear that their jobs, families' livelihoods, and even their own liberty will be in jeopardy. The result is what we are beginning to see in Baltimore and other cities: a significant increase in violence.

A combination of assertive policing and community policing can turn this around. Rather then talk at each other, the community, the police, and our leaders need to talk to each other.

When I was police commissioner in New York, we had a program called "Model Block" that combined aggressive policing with committed community involvement, empowerment, and revitalization. We targeted the most violent and drug-infested neighborhoods. With the help of the community, we identified those who were committing crimes, and through aggressive police work, we made cases and arrested them.

We held community meetings and organized working groups of citizens and city workers from multiple agencies to take action on restoring these blighted neighborhoods into livable communities. We restored buildings, cleaned up streets, helped those who wanted to work gain job skills—essentially catalyzing and coordinating a better physical and economic environment from the danger and disrepair that had overtaken it. We stationed uniformed officers on foot patrol to ensure that the criminals did not return. In some cases—each with community buy-in and permission—we even set up checkpoints at the end of blocks to keep the criminals out. By taking back neighborhoods block-by-block and engaging the residents, we changed some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in New York City to some of the safest.

This is National Police Week. Police officers from all over the country will gather at the National Law Enforcement Memorial in Washington D.C. They will remember the officers killed in the line of duty last year. Fresh in their minds will be the three officers killed in the last two weeks—Officer Brian Moore in New York and Officers Benjamin Deen and Liquori Tate in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. They will think about the reasons they became police officers and rededicate their minds and lives to protecting us. It's vital that we convince them that we appreciate their sacrifice. To do less will endanger us all.
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2015, 05:03:45 PM
Wouldn't say this is cracking down, more like cutting off the spigot.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-cracking-down-militarization-local-police-n360381

QuoteObama: U.S. Cracking Down on 'Militarization' of Local Police
By M. Alex Johnson

The federal government will no longer provide heavy military equipment like tanks and grenade launchers to local cops following weeks of backlash against officers who confronted protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, in armored vehicles and camouflage last year, President Barack Obama said Monday.

And if they want other, less-imposing military equipment, local law enforcement agencies will have to submit to stringent federal oversight and restrictions, according to the White House.

"We've seen how militarized gear can sometimes give people the feeling like there's an occupying force — as opposed to a force that's part of the community that's protecting them and serving them," the president said Monday, adding that such gear "can alienate and intimidate residents and make them feel scared."

Obama outlined the reforms during a visit to Camden, New Jersey, for years one of the most dangerous cities in America but a place the president highlighted as having made great strides in reducing violent crime and building trust between law enforcement and the community.

Camden accomplished this, the president said, by doubling the size of its police force, moving more officers out into the community to set up basketball games and visitING schools and businesses. The city is also participating in a police data initiative that, for example, could help localities track incidents of police force.

If such an effort can work in Camden, "it can work anywhere," the president said.

The president's remarks are part of a recent series of comments Obama has made underscoring the nation's need to do some "soul searching" on such issues as race, poverty and the strained relationship between law enforcement and the minority communities they serve.

The president said a community task force on policing that the White House convened suggested restricting providing military-style equipment to local law enforcement from the federal government. The recommendations also included enhanced officer training, improving the use of body cameras and other technologies.

A White House official told NBC News that the Justice Department is seeking to strike a balance by making only appropriate equipment available, and with clear operating standards, training and safety procedures.

The measures are the followup to an executive measure Obama issued in January to crack down on the intimidating image presented by local agencies patrolling the streets bristling with advanced military weaponry.

The controversy was fueled when Ferguson police took to the streets in camouflage with military gear after the police shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown, who was unarmed. But complaints about paramilitary-style equipping of local police have been widespread at least since protests over the World Trade Organization exploded into riots in Seattle in 1999.

Local law enforcement agencies have been eligible to receive surplus military equipment through a Defense Department program enacted in 1997.

Some in Congress have been very reluctant to cut back on the equipment because of the program's popularity with many police departments, and previous legislation stalled.

Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Missouri, and Rep. Lacy Clay, a Democrat whose Missouri district includes Ferguson, applauded the White House's actions. The lawmakers have introduced a measure aimed at reducing excessive police force.

"Our bill directly addresses the excessive militarization of local police, which I witnessed first-hand in Ferguson," Clay said in a recent statement before the White House's announcement.

The equipment that's being banned Monday includes tanks and other tracked armored vehicles, weaponized aircraft and vehicles, firearms and ammunition measuring .50-caliber and larger, grenade launchers and bayonets, the Justice Department said.

Restrictions and conditions will be put on other types of equipment — including armored tactical vehicles like those used in Ferguson, as well as many types of firearms, ammunition and explosives.

The conditions are likely to rankle some local agencies.

Besides having to give the feds a "clear and persuasive explanation of the need for the controlled equipment," local law enforcement agencies won't be eligible unless they've adopted what are known as General Policing Standards. Those include so-called community policing programs, with foot cops on the beat interacting with the public and regular consultation with community groups — a different approach from the "zero tolerance" policies adopted in recent years by many big-city police agencies.

Algonquin, Illinois, Police Chief Russell Laine, president of the International Association of Police Chiefs, said adopting community policing philosophies "allows law enforcement agencies to develop a partnership with their community to create a safer environment while combating traditional crimes, supporting homeland security and providing services to our community."

But their adoption has been slow in many police departments.

In December, a month after a Cleveland officer shot Tamir Rice, an unarmed 12-year-old African-American boy, a Justice Department report heavily criticized the city for having inadequately implemented community policing, resulting in what it called a "level of distrust between the police and the community [that] interferes with CDP's ability to work the various communities it serves."

And in its investigation of Ferguson police in March, the Justice Department said the abandonment of community policing principles had "resulted in practices that not only violate the Constitution and cause direct harm to the individuals whose rights are violated, but also undermine community trust, especially among many African Americans."

Agencies in more conservative communities suspicious of federal authority may have a particular problem with the new rules. Another primary condition of getting military equipment will be acceptance of close federal oversight and monitoring overseen by a new federal agency with the power to conduct local compliance reviews.

They'll also have to collect and retain data whenever such equipment is involved in a "significant incident" and make those data available to the federal government and, in some cases, the public.

One of the things the new agency will specifically be looking for, according to the White House: "protection of civil rights and civil liberties."

Halimah Abdullah of NBC News contributed to this report. 
Title: Re: Fatal police shooting in Missouri sparks protests
Post by: sbr on May 18, 2015, 07:31:02 PM
Shutting off the spigot after the bathtub overflowed and ruined the entire house.
Title: Police Brutality Megathread
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2015, 06:48:12 PM
Photo clearly shows he was wearing head phones.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-sheriff-blames-jermaine-mcbean-own-death-court-papers-n368611

QuoteFlorida Sheriff Blames Jermaine McBean for Own Death in Court Papers

by Tracy Connor

A Florida sheriff has responded to a lawsuit filed by the family of a man killed while walking with an unloaded air rifle, saying he caused his own death.

Jermaine McBean, 33, was fatally shot by police in 2013 as he walked home from the pawn shop where he bought the rifle — after three people called 911 in alarm.

Police said that McBean ignored their orders to drop the weapon and pointed it at them on the grounds of an Oakland Park apartment complex, giving them no choice but to shoot.

McBean's family has obtained a photograph showing that, contrary to statements by police, he was wearing headphones at the time of the shooting and, they say, explains why he may not have heard the orders.

One of the 911 callers has also come forward with a claim that McBean had the rifle perched on his shoulders, behind his neck, and was not pointing at police when he was shot.


The family filed a wrongful-death lawsuit in federal court last month, and this week, the Broward County Sheriff's Office filed its preliminary answer this week.

"Defendants allege and assert that any measure of force utilized againstJermaine McBean was reasonable, justified and/or necessary under the circumstances," it says.

"Defendants allege and assert that it was the Jermaine McBean's conduct that is the sole cause of his alleged injuries and damages, if any."

The family's lawyer, civil-rights attorney David Schoen, called the assertion "disappointing."

"Jermaine was a beloved young man with a brilliant future. He walked home to his apartment carrying an unloaded air rifle while wearing headphones. Nothing about that should have caused his death," Schoen said. "His death was a tragedy and must be recognized as such by all, but perhaps most especially the Sheriff."

In a statement Monday, Sheriff Scott Israel defended his office's handling of the case and denied the McBean family's allegation that the photo showed there was a coverup.

But his office said it is reviewing a decision to give the officer who killed McBean a bravery commendation for the shooting while it was still under investigation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: police violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2015, 01:55:08 AM
Thread renamed by request of Tabloid Tim.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: police violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 01:59:36 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2015, 01:55:08 AM
Thread renamed by request of Tabloid Tim.
:lol: Not exactly the name I had in mind, but it's good enough!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition

No they are worried about riots
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition

No they are worried about riots
If they restore trust, they won't have to worry about riots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition

No they are worried about riots
If they restore trust, they won't have to worry about riots.

Not going to happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:35:02 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition

No they are worried about riots
If they restore trust, they won't have to worry about riots.

Not going to happen.
It's not something that can be done in a short term, but if effort is made, it can be done.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 04, 2015, 08:26:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition

No they are worried about riots
If they restore trust, they won't have to worry about riots.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2015, 08:27:23 AM
Yes...and? Responsible government demands those in charge fear the governed a bit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2015, 08:28:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2015, 08:26:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2015, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
I think this can certainly help restore trust that's been lost.

http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0603/After-terror-shooting-Boston-police-choose-transparency-over-tradition

No they are worried about riots
If they restore trust, they won't have to worry about riots.

:lol:

What? It is not like the American people are particularly riot prone outside of major sports championships.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 04, 2015, 11:02:29 AM
Dunno, man.  I'm just looking for the thinnest excuse for me to loot me a fishing boat from the Bass Pro shop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on June 07, 2015, 08:13:51 PM
https://youtu.be/R46-XTqXkzE

Only good cop is a dead cop
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 07, 2015, 08:45:01 PM
I don't think running away from the spot where cops are running toward is the wrong action.  If cops are running a certain direction, then that means there is trouble that way, and I like to stay out of trouble.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ideologue on June 08, 2015, 01:27:07 AM
Quote from: sbr on June 07, 2015, 08:13:51 PM
https://youtu.be/R46-XTqXkzE

Only good cop is a dead cop

Saw this earlier.  Beyond the nearly-comical rage issues and the ineptitude (even by cop standards), I had to laugh at the George C. Scott in Strangelove slip-and-fall.  What a fucking joke this guy is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2015, 01:36:02 AM
On the plus side, I suspect this guy's going to get canned without having done any lasting damage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 08, 2015, 02:51:22 AM
There's a lot of context missing from the video, but it appears a lot of the problem is that rage-cop was the ranking officer.  The officer that kid taping the video returned the flashlight to seemed to be pretty calm and professional dealing with the group until rage-cop charged back in trying to force everyone onto their face.

Not sure what the deal with the fat-jorts dude was...as if he was passively trying to assist the police while looking like a tard the entire time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on June 08, 2015, 07:14:52 AM
Pool party video? I jacked off to the white guy slamming bikini girl.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on June 08, 2015, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: sbr on June 07, 2015, 08:13:51 PM
https://youtu.be/R46-XTqXkzE

Only good cop is a dead cop

Looks like a Fresh Prince of Bel Air scene.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 08, 2015, 06:53:39 PM
Just monstrous what this kid went through :(

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-held-at-rikers-island-for-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html?_r=0
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 11, 2015, 02:17:56 AM
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2015/06/10/fatal-officer-shooting-ryan-bolinger-dancing-man-vanessa-miller/71010592/

QuoteOfficer inside patrol car fatally shoots unarmed man

A Des Moines police officer fired her service weapon through the rolled-up window of her patrol car on Tuesday night, fatally shooting an unarmed man said to be charging at her car, according to police.

Ryan Keith Bolinger, 28, of West Des Moines, died at the scene from a single gunshot to the torso. Police and witnesses said he led two officers on a slow chase through northwestern Des Moines Tuesday evening that ended with Bolinger exiting his vehicle and coming toward the squad car.

"He was walking with a purpose," Sgt. Jason Halifax of Des Moines Police said following a press conference Wednesday on the shooting.

Senior Police Officer Vanessa Miller, a seven-year veteran, fired the round that killed Bolinger. Miller was assisting Senior Police Officer Ian Lawler, also a seven-year veteran, in the pursuit of Bolinger's vehicle after a bizarre confrontation involving an unrelated vehicle stop that Bolinger interrupted.

Both officers are on administrative leave until the investigation, is completed, per the department policy. The Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation will assist in the investigation.

Halifax said he expects a grand jury ultimately will evaluate the case, though the department is also conducting its own internal investigation. Both Miller and Bolinger are white.

Interrupted traffic stop

Lawler's squad car was parked off the southbound lane of Merle Hay Road near Aurora Avenue after he pulled over a different driver at 10:07 p.m., Halifax said.

About 10 minutes later, Bolinger pulled up in a 2000 Lincoln Sedan alongside Lawler in his patrol car — so close that the officer couldn't open his door. Bolinger got out and started acting "erratically," Halifax said.

"It's been described as almost dancing in the street or making unusual movements in the street," Halifax said at the press conference. "I don't want it to be construed that he's doing a waltz in the middle of Merle Hay Road. ... He's outside of his vehicle. He's not making a directed motion.

"... It's odd, erratic behavior which begins by parking very close to the squad car that's already on a traffic stop and getting out of your vehicle to do whatever he was doing in the street."

Bolinger got back in his car and started driving. Lawler started to pursue Bolinger at about 35 miles per hour, traveling south down Merle Hay Road.

At Urbandale Avenue, about a mile south, Bolinger made a U-turn and stopped abruptly, Halifax said. Lawler pulled in front of Bolinger at an angle to stop him from continuing. Miller stopped a short distance behind Bolinger's car.

In a matter of seconds, Bolinger got out of his car and charged or "walked with a purpose" toward Miller's squad car, Halifax said.

After he was a short distance from Miller's driver's side window, she fired one round, shattering the rolled-up window and hitting Bolinger in the torso.

Police found no weapons on Bolinger or at the scene. It's unclear whether Miller thought he was carrying something at the time, Halifax said.

"He made a very quick advance toward her car," Halifax said.

Squad cars don't have bulletproof glass or reinforced side panels, Halifax said.

Officers do receive training at the law enforcement academy on how to fire shots from a seated position, such as a patrol vehicle, he confirmed.

"There's never any guarantee that your window's going to remain intact from any type of outside blow ... whether it's from a baseball bat or a rock," Halifax said.

Cause of attack unknown

Des Moines police had little prior contact with Bolinger.

He apparently filed a report in April against another person who he said had used his vehicle without permission. He has no criminal record, according to Iowa Courts Online.

Police will try to determine what was happening with Bolinger at the time, including whether it could have been a suicide-by-cop attempt, Halifax said. Police are seeking search warrants to look through his vehicle and cellphone for clues.

Toxicology tests and the autopsy, which are pending, should reveal whether Bolinger had drugs or alcohol in his system.

Reporters visited his West Des Moines home Wednesday morning, but nobody answered the door.

Record of events

Police dash-cam video was rolling at the time of the incident, though it didn't capture the shooting, Halifax said.

Microphones worn by officers were also operating, but that audio won't be available until after the grand jury investigation.

Officers were not wearing body cameras, since the department is still in the process of making those purchases.

"This is an instance where having a body camera would definitely have been an advantage. There are times where I've written things out as an officer but you can't convey the whole situation," Halifax said. "Video can capture the whole moment. That's clearly one of the benefits."


Use of force policy

The Des Moines policy governing use of force sets out specific instances when deadly force can and can't be used.

"The use of deadly force can take many forms ... it all has to do in how an officer perceives a situation and how they feel at the time," Sgt. Jason Halifax of Des Moines Police said. "There's not a hard, fast, this is when you shoot and this is when you don't."

Permitted: They're allowed to fire in five situations: At an approved firing range; to destroy injured or dangerous animals; when legally ordered or authorized to do so by a commanding officer; and when they believe such force is necessary to protect himself or another person from the use or threat of deadly force.

Officers also may use their firearms to arrest someone who is known to have committed a dangerous felony, has threatened or use deadly force and the officer has already made a reasonable attempt to make their intent to arrest known. All other methods of apprehending the person must be exhausted first, and the officer must also believe that discharging their firearms can be done without substantial risk of injury to innocent persons.

Not permitted: Officers are not permitted to use their firearm in three scenarios under department policy: for the purpose of a warning; at moving vehicles except in self-defense or in defense of another officer or third party; or in cases where a warrant is on file, and the identity of the suspect is known to police and their escape would not be an immediate danger to an innocent person or officer.



One-man protest

Allen Thomas, 28, of Waukee showed up to Wednesday's press conference on the police shooting to protest.

He carried a sign that read, "Hey Mr. Po Po ... I'm unarmed and protesting. Are you going to kill me."

"I think this country is turning into a police state," Thomas said. "It would have been more appropriate to use a taser on this suspect."



Police scanners recount shooting

Public police scanner audio between dispatchers and officers chasing shooting victim Ryan Keith Bolinger's car shed some light on what police saw Tuesday night.

Senior Police Officer Ian Lawler first told dispatchers over his radio around 10:17 p.m. that he was following Bolinger's car going southbound on Merle Hay Road past Madison Avenue. He read the license plate over the scanner.

"He pulled up next to me on my traffic stop and started running around on the highway. Then he jumped back in his car, taking off," Lawler said.

Senior Police Officer Vanessa Miller was already trailing the chase at that point, Lawler indicated.

About 45 seconds later, Miller reported that they had crossed Douglas Avenue going about 35 miles per hour, "weaving all over." Dispatch asked if the suspect was a juvenile, to which Lawler stated that he was probably in his 20s or 30s.

Lawer adds that the driver might may be "10-96," which is police code for mentally ill, or "10-55," a drunk driver.

Another 40 seconds later, the trio arrived at Urbandale Avenue.

"Looks like we're going to turn around," Miller stated. "Whoop. Heading back northbound."

That's when Bolinger made a U-turn.

Twenty seconds of silence elapsed before the dispatcher asked where the officers were headed. Miller chimed in, breathlessly restating their location.

The dispatcher asked again whether they were still "running" or pursuing.

Silence.

At about 10:20 p.m., Miller said she was "trying to take one into custody."

Seven seconds later, Lawler reported, "Shots fired. We need rescue."

"We've got a white male, torso, and uh, I'm not sure what the injuries are," Miller told dispatchers about 30 seconds later.

They reported that it was officer-involved shooting, but that police were OK.

"Did an officer fire a shot or did the suspect?" the dispatcher asked.

Six seconds of silence until a male officer responded, "Officer involved. Uh ..."

The dispatcher didn't ask again but started to direct other officers that were called to the scene.

At about 10:25 p.m., police and dispatchers removed the call from the public airwaves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 11, 2015, 09:28:08 AM
I bet her ears are still ringing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 12, 2015, 03:24:30 AM
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article23753281.html

QuoteCop shoots homeless man wielding pipe at Overtown park

A veteran Miami police officer training a rookie shot and killed a homeless man who was threatening him with a pipe at an Overtown park filled with kids on Thursday, police said.

The shooting sent children attending summer camp at Gibson Park scrambling to get inside buildings. Police said as many as 60 people may have witnessed the morning confrontation at one of Overtown's more popular summer spots for kids.

The officer who fired the fatal shot was identified as Antonio Torres, a 20-year police veteran who was badly injured in a motorcycle accident in 2007. Struck while driving his police motorcycle on State Rd. 836, Torres suffered a fractured skull and heart damage.

It took him more than a year to fully recover and return to the force. The 41-year-old officer is a member of the department's Honor Guard and has worked in training and traffic enforcement. He will be placed on administrative leave while the Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigates the incident.

The man shot dead is 46-year-old Fritz Severe, a vagrant who some familiar with the investigation said spent time at a nearby post office. Severe has a lengthy criminal past with convictions for violent and non-violent offenses in different jurisdictions.

Even as the children attending summer camp at Gibson Park Thursday were quickly ushered inside a building, parents who had been notified that their kids were safe waited nervously outside. Police brass, sensitive to the national concern over recent videotaped police actions, showed up at the park in large numbers.

Miami Police Chief Rodolfo Llanes took the unusual step of personally addressing the public. He said his officers responded after police received a call about a "violent disturbance."

"The officer confronted the subject and discharged his weapon," Llanes said. "There was more than one shot."

Llanes said police have to interview 40 to 60 witnesses. The chief said an officer would only fire his weapon if he felt threatened, and added that he's well aware of the "anxiety that's been created across the country."

"I would ask that everybody wait for the facts," Llanes said. "We will determine the truth based on the number of witnesses."

An officer familiar with the investigation said the man died after being taken to Jackson Memorial Hospital. Witnesses gave differing accounts, but all seemed to agree that Severe was homeless and frequented the park.

Police were called to the scene Thursday morning by a park worker concerned that Severe was a threat to the children playing there. Though his body was removed quickly, a three-foot long metal pipe remained at the scene, police said.

Police said none of the officers at the shooting scene were wearing body cameras. They were checking late Thursday to see if there was video surveillance at the park or if anyone may have recorded the confrontation.

The shooting death of Severe was one of two on Thursday by law enforcement in South Florida.

Four Broward sheriff's deputies were involved in the death of a bank robbery suspect in Pompano Beach. In that incident, Broward Sheriff Scott Israel said the deputies had the man in custody, but a struggle followed and he broke free. When he reached for a weapon in his car, Israel said, he was shot dead by one of the deputies.

Several people claimed to have witnessed Thursday's shooting in Gibson Park. Most said they recognized the man who had been killed but didn't know him personally.

Nichelle Miller said she saw the confrontation, which took place around 10 a.m., inside the park at Northwest 13th Street and Third Avenue. It happened in front of the entrance to the Culmer/Overtown branch library. Miller said the officer fired five times.

"The man had a stick in his hand. They could have Tasered him. He was a homeless guy who's there every morning," Miller said. She said the man didn't swing the pipe at the officer, but pointed it at him.

Another witness, Stephanie Severance, told Miami Herald news partner CBS4 that the officer stopped Severe, and when he began pointing the metal stick at the officer, the officer opened fire.


"The next thing you know, the man shot him," she said. "I didn't know whether to run, duck or hide."

In January, Miami handed over investigations of police-involved shootings to the FDLE. This is the second police-involved shooting since April — when Miami rookie cop Rosny Obas got into a shootout with a man driving a taxi.

The FDLE, which doesn't comment on investigations, said its sole mission is to look for criminal wrongdoing.

Javier Ortiz, president of the Fraternal Order of Police union that represents Miami officers, said it's imperative that the public has confidence in officers — especially when deadly force is used. He cautioned against jumping to conclusions.

"The FOP is confident that when the independent investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is complete, it will find that our officer involved acted within the law," Ortiz said.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement records show Severe has a lengthy criminal history littered with trespassing arrests in Miami-Dade and Orlando. The records also show he was arrested in 2005 in North Miami for aggravated battery, but the case was dropped. In 2009, he was found guilty of aggravated battery in Broward County. The same charge was dropped a year later in Miami-Dade.

Last year, the records show, Severe was arrested by Miami-Dade police for burglary and resisting arrest with violence. Those charges were dropped. Finally, he was found guilty of criminal mischief after being arrested by Miami police in January.

By Thursday afternoon, most of the kids at the YMCA summer camp had been released to their parents. Some stayed, even as investigators continued to swarm the park. The crime scene was on the small walkway outside the library wall covered with colorful hand-painted pictures.

The city spent millions of dollars three years ago renovating Gibson Park, refurbishing the once-popular but decaying swimming pool and allowing the YMCA to open a center on Northwest Third Avenue, to the south of the popular Overtown Youth Center. Today, it offers swimming lessons and other outdoor activities like football.

The park is on the northern end of rehabilitated Northwest Third Avenue, which now has shops, covered walkways and other street improvements for several blocks south of 14th Street. The shooting took place at the north end of the park, across the street from a building under construction and next to a vacant building.

Veronica Sands was waiting for her 11-year-old son and 7-year-old grandson to be released from the YMCA. Standing in the hot sun outside the park and under a poinciana tree with two hens roosting in its branches, she said she received a call from a park employee soon after the shooting. He said her family members were safe.

"I'm feeling a little better knowing they're OK," Sands said. "I can't even begin to describe what goes through your mind, though, when you get a call saying something like this happened. I'm just upset it had to happen in front of the kids."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 12, 2015, 10:20:38 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/13/us/after-freddie-gray-death-west-baltimores-police-presence-drops-and-murders-soar.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=fb-nytimes&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&smtyp=aut&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id

QuoteWest Baltimore's Police Presence Drops, and Murders Soar

BALTIMORE — From the steps of her New Bethlehem Baptist Church, the Rev. Lisa Weah looked down the block to the open-air drug market outside the bodega on the corner a few hundred feet away.

The traffic there had been slowing until the chaos that followed the death of Freddie Gray on April 19, after he was injured in police custody. Now it is back full-bore, and the police are often nowhere to be seen.

A month and a half after six officers were charged in Mr. Gray's death, policing has dwindled in some of Baltimore's most dangerous neighborhoods, and murders have risen to levels not seen in four decades. The totals include a 29-year-old man fatally shot on this drug corner last month. Police union officials say that officers are still coming to work, but that some feel a newfound reluctance and are stepping back, questioning whether they will be prosecuted for actions they take on the job.

Around the nation, communities and police departments are struggling to adapt to an era of heightened scrutiny, when every stop can be recorded on a cellphone. But residents, clergy members and neighborhood leaders say the past six weeks have made another reality clear: that as much as some officers regularly humiliated and infuriated many who live here, angering gang members and solid citizens alike, the solution has to be better policing, not a diminished police presence.

"Without law enforcement, there is no order," Pastor Weah said. "In truth, residents want a strong police force, but they also want accountability." She said that she sympathized with many officers who did their jobs well but were now just as hated as the abusive officers, and that she prayed the spate of killings would be the shock that finally caused change.

"This crisis was bound to happen because of the broken relationship between law enforcement and the people," she said. "When something gets this infected, you have to break it down and start from new."

At least 55 people, the highest pace since the early 1970s, have been murdered in Baltimore since May 1, when the state's attorney for the city, Marilyn J. Mosby, announced the criminal charges against the officers. Victims of shootings have included people involved in criminal activity and young children who were simply in the wrong place.

A 9-year-old boy was shot in the leg over the Memorial Day weekend. Another boy, Kester Browne, 7, a Chinese-language student at an international school in Baltimore, was fatally shot along with his mother, Jennifer Jeffrey-Browne, 31. They were two of the city's 42 murder victims in May.

At the time of her announcement, Ms. Mosby's charges were seen as calming the city. But they enraged the police rank and file, who pulled back. The number of arrests plunged, and the murder rate doubled in a month. The reduced police presence gave criminals space to operate, according to community leaders and some law enforcement officials.

The soaring violence has made Baltimore a battleground for political arguments about whether a backlash against police tactics has led to more killings in big cities like New York, St. Louis and Chicago, and whether "de-policing," as academics call it, can cause crime to rise.

Still, the speed and severity of the police pullback here appear unlike anything that has happened in other major cities. And rather than a clear test case, Baltimore is a reminder of how complicated policing issues are and how hard it can be to draw solid conclusions from a month or two of crime and police response.

For example, police commanders here attribute the spike in violence in large part to a unique factor: a flood of black-market opiates stolen from 27 pharmacies during looting in April, enough for 175,000 doses now illegally available for sale.

They say drug gangs are now oversupplied with inventory from the looting, resulting in a violent battle for market share from a finite base of potential customers. Gangs sell a single OxyContin dose for $30, twice what they get for a dose of heroin, said Gary Tuggle, a former Baltimore police officer who was the head of the city's Drug Enforcement Administration office until this month.

Police leaders acknowledge, though, that they do not yet know how many of the recent murders were drug-related. Mr. Tuggle also said he took issue with "this idea that the only reason for the rise in violence" is drugs.

"It's hard to police effectively if you are only concerned about self-preservation," he said. "If you are not challenging them because of the need for self-preservation, then these folks are likely going to go out and commit these crimes."

Whether hostility from residents or police slowdowns lead to increases in crime is hotly debated among academics. David A. Harris, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh who studies police accountability, said increases were usually attributable to local circumstances, including the drug trade and gang rivalries.

Baltimore commanders say that their officers are engaged — making major arrests, conducting raids and taking weapons off the streets — but that basic police work is now more labor intensive. For instance, an officer interviewing witnesses may be surrounded by scores of onlookers with cellphone cameras.

Officials from the western Baltimore neighborhoods hardest hit by the spate of murders — including City Councilman Nick J. Mosby, who is married to Ms. Mosby, the state's attorney — say commanders have also doubled the number of officers per cruiser for safety reasons.

"The visibility has significantly decreased," Mr. Mosby said. While many people in his district want a larger police presence, he added, "you talk to others and they don't even want to see a police officer."

The crisis has also set the police commissioner — Anthony W. Batts, who took command three years ago after serving as police chief in Oakland and Long Beach, Calif. — between a city angry at the department's posture toward many residents, and police union officials who suggest he does not fully support rank-and-file officers.

Tensions with the police union broke out into the open late last month, when Mr. Batts apologized emotionally to members for not preparing for unrest on the scale of April's riot, which wounded more than 100 officers.

"I got my guys hurt, and I got to own that, and I stand tall behind that," he told the union members. "That won't happen again in this organization."

Healing the chasm between the police and western Baltimore is the job of a new commander, Capt. Sheree Briscoe, now acting major in charge of the three-square-mile district that sees much of the worst violence. After her appointment late last month, she moved quickly to bring community leaders into the fold, a new approach that has encouraged Pastor Weah and others.

Captain Briscoe promised that this was only the beginning of changes. "You cannot just attack the drug trade" alone, she said, citing deep-rooted social and economic challenges, and problems with things like trash, lighting and vacant homes, that needed to be "holistically" addressed.

Just as many community leaders say they need the police back, Captain Briscoe says residents need to be more involved with police planning. She said she intended to share more information and to include residents of the district in deciding police priorities.

"The direction that we're going in now, the community is more a part of it," she said. "They are going to be more a part of the process, as opposed to affected by the process."

For now, the clergy members who fill much of the leadership vacuum in the city's toughest neighborhoods have been the police's main avenue to try to reconnect with angry and alienated residents.

But the problems in western Baltimore existed long before Mr. Gray's death, and many of them go well beyond policing.

In Sandtown-Winchester, the nearly all-black district where Mr. Gray took his last steps a few blocks from Pastor Weah's church, one in four children age 10 to 17 were arrested from 2005 to 2009, according to a report by the city's Health Department. The neighborhood had twice as much poverty and unemployment as the rest of Baltimore, which is itself one of the nation's poorest major cities.

Longtime residents say the recreation centers they remember going to after class have closed, creating more risk that young people will come under the sway of drug dealers.

"We emulated the guys who were best in pool, best in Ping-Pong, best in basketball," said George Butler, 40, sitting in his barbershop near the scene of the worst rioting and looting in April. "And that counteracted the other guys we looked up to" — drug dealers.

Mr. Butler went to prison a decade ago for distributing heroin with a feared drug organization. But he wants the police back on the job.

With the force diminished, he said, criminals think, "I don't have to worry about the police coming, so why not?"

Police assertiveness "is a gift and a curse," Mr. Butler added. "To some extent, it keeps the violence down. But when they become overaggressive or abusive or combative to the citizens, then it causes them to be in an uproar."

Just how much the Police Department changes may depend on the outcome of a Justice Department investigation into whether the force has used abusive patterns and practices against residents.

That inquiry may take a year or more, two Justice Department officials told about 20 residents who gathered last week at Sharon Baptist Church in Sandtown. At the meeting, residents described frustrations that ranged from the difficulty of finding affordable housing to humiliating police practices like strip- and cavity-searching men in full view of bystanders.

The police say there were 13 homicides in the first 11 days of June. One teenager outside the booming open-air drug market down the block from Pastor Weah's church was not optimistic that the pace would slow.

"Summertime," he said. "That's when they do all the killing."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
Imagine that? This is why it is so incredibly important to have good relations between communities and police officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 12, 2015, 10:31:35 AM
As my sister puts it on Facebook:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHL5bnHUwAAAJBh.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 10:33:35 AM
That Mosby chick ain't helping things.  But hey, as she says she comes from "five generations of cops" :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 10:34:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
This is why it is so incredibly important to have good relations between communities and police officers.

Almost seems like a fool's errand at this point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
State government should make the cops patrol their beat, and if they have to fire folks until it happens, then do it.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 10:33:35 AM
That Mosby chick ain't helping things.  But hey, as she says she comes from "five generations of cops" :lol:

Oh, and what is she doing that she shouldn't?  :rolleyes:
And what is so funny about her ancestry?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 10:44:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 12, 2015, 10:31:35 AM
As my sister puts it on Facebook:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHL5bnHUwAAAJBh.jpg)

Yeah I am sure the overlap between the people rioting in Baltimore and spoiled children is huge.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 11:33:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Oh, and what is she doing that she shouldn't?  :rolleyes:

For starters, see this: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-freddie-gray-mosby-20150505-story.html

Also, she filed a gag order motion in the wrong court.  And it turns out that she had asked Baltimore police to focus drug enforcement in the area where Fred Gray was arrested.  So she could be called as a witness in the trial.  I'm no lawyer but I would think she'd be disqualified as a prosecutor at that point.

She just appears to be in over her head.  She rushed in with charges for the six cops and seems to have done so for her own publicity. 

That's not to say that charges shouldn't be brought against some of the six cops in question.  It's just the way she went about it smacks of incompetence.

QuoteAnd what is so funny about her ancestry?

First of all, having family members who were cops does not automatically grant you a good relationship with the police force.  Also does not mean you're on their side and wouldn't sell them out for personal benefit.  Anytime she's challenged on that she throws down the "five generations" card.

But moving on to the claim itself, her grandfather was a cop, her parents were cops, so the way I see it she comes from two generations of cops.  She's counting every single family member as a generation.  But maybe I misunderstand the term "generation", dunno.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 11:49:44 AM
five generations? Were there even police back in 1810 or whenever that many generations back would be alive :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 11:59:30 AM
When the surveillance state finally arises, crime and police brutality alike will become a thing of the past. It's already happening, I'm just about 10 years ahead. As usual.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 12, 2015, 11:36:48 PM
This says more about their integrity than killing black people in custody.

Basically, they are saying that if they are not allowed to police with impunity, they are not going to police at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ideologue on June 13, 2015, 12:29:34 PM
Maybe they shouldn't get paid at all.  Don't we not like strikers and work-to-rule shenanigans in this country?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2015, 06:31:40 PM
Investigators find no evidence that Tamar Rice was told to raise his hands.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/investigators-cleveland-officer-did-not-tell-boy-to-raise-his-hands-before-firing/2015/06/13/cfb83290-1207-11e5-a0dc-2b6f404ff5cf_story.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 13, 2015, 08:09:49 PM
There doesn't appear to be any hard evidence that he didn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2015, 08:12:57 PM
The evidence that he was is the statement of the officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 13, 2015, 09:14:16 PM
Good to go.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2015, 11:28:41 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 13, 2015, 09:14:16 PM
Good to go.
What's good to go? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 14, 2015, 12:09:48 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2015, 11:28:41 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 13, 2015, 09:14:16 PM
Good to go.
What's good to go? :unsure:

No evidence. Innocent till proven guilty. Maybe if the were wearing body cams we would know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2015, 12:36:42 AM
We do have some video, cop just pulls up and instantly opens fire.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 14, 2015, 12:40:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2015, 12:36:42 AM
We do have some video, cop just pulls up and instantly opens fire.
So, you can say definitively that they didn't tell the kid to put his hands up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 09:29:12 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 14, 2015, 12:40:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2015, 12:36:42 AM
We do have some video, cop just pulls up and instantly opens fire.
So, you can say definitively that they didn't tell the kid to put his hands up.

Whether they did or not doesn't really matter, from what I can tell.

PUTYOURHANDSUPBANGBANGBANG

doesn't really excuse them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 09:30:05 AM
Kind of reminds me of the South Park episode where they go hunting and have to yell "They're coming right for us!" before they blow the animals away.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 14, 2015, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 14, 2015, 12:40:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2015, 12:36:42 AM
We do have some video, cop just pulls up and instantly opens fire.
So, you can say definitively that they didn't tell the kid to put his hands up.

That's not a legal requirement to ascertain guilt.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2015, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 09:29:12 AM
Whether they did or not doesn't really matter, from what I can tell.

PUTYOURHANDSUPBANGBANGBANG

doesn't really excuse them.

If they're story is they started yelling at the kid after they came to a stop they're fucked.

If they're saying they were yelling it as they were driving up, it looks a little more reasonable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 14, 2015, 02:51:50 PM
Yelling things inside a moving police car while the siren is running is not an effective way to transmit a message.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2015, 02:58:10 PM
WAVELENGTH
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 05:32:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2015, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 09:29:12 AM
Whether they did or not doesn't really matter, from what I can tell.

PUTYOURHANDSUPBANGBANGBANG

doesn't really excuse them.

If they're story is they started yelling at the kid after they came to a stop they're fucked.

If they're saying they were yelling it as they were driving up, it looks a little more reasonable.

It moves it from silly unreasonable to just unreasonable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 05:39:04 PM
What sucks about this case is that it is one of those cases that illustrates a pretty basic problem in policing. The gap between "Can I justify shooting this person?" and "Must I shoot this person?"

I am pretty sure the cop thought he was driving up on some 20something gang banger with a gun, and was all jacked up about being in a situation where he can justifiably use his weapon and be a hero saving the people from some clearly dangerous guy.

What bothers me is that his actions, if they are in fact wrong, are just as wrong whether the person he is blowing away is what he thinks he is, or if the person he is blowing away is a 12 year old with a pellet gun.

If it was a 28 year gang member with a criminal record holding an illegally obtained 9mm, there would be no visibility to this - yet the basic problem would still remain. The police are the ones who created a "crisis" moment where their lives were presumably at risk - they did not have to drive right up on the guy at short range. There were lots of ways to approach that situation that they could have taken, and they *chose* to take the one that mean that the presumed bad guy had moments to react perfectly in order to not be gunned down.

They can claim that they felt their lives were threatened and hence they had to kill him - that is like me claiming that I had to shoot that tiger in the zoo, because once I climbed into his pen and poked him with that stick, he was surely going to be pissed off.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2015, 06:09:44 PM

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-tamir-rice-investigation-documents-20150613-story.html
QuoteLoehmann and his partner, Frank Garmback, did not cooperate with the Sheriff's Department during its investigation, according to Steve Loomis, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Assn. The officers did make statements to Cleveland police internal affairs and homicide investigators on the day of the shooting, Loomis previously told The Times.

...

This week, a Cleveland municipal judge found probable cause to charge Loehmann with murder and several other offenses, but the decision is advisory; whether to prosecute is likely to rest with a county grand jury. No charges have yet been filed.

Though the ruling has no legal bearing on the case, experts have said the fact that a sitting judge found probable cause to charge the officers could influence grand jurors, who unlike trial jurors are allowed to review media reports of a pending criminal matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2015, 07:15:45 PM
What the fuck?  :wacko:

http://www.nj.com/monmouth/index.ssf/2015/06/wife_shot_by_neptune_police_officer_dies.html

QuoteNeptune cop charged with shooting, killing ex-wife in front of daughter

— Fueled by a child custody dispute, a recently divorced Neptune Township police officer shot and killed his former wife in broad daylight on Tuesday in front of their daughter on an Asbury Park street, authorities said.

Phillip Seidle, 51, a 22-year veteran with the Neptune Township Police Department, was charged with murder in the shooting death of his ex-wife Tamara Seidle on Sewall Avenue, said First Assistant Monmouth County Prosecutor Marc LeMieux

Seidle, a sergeant with the police department, was arrested after he fired several shots into his ex-wife's car  after a short chase through Asbury Park

At around 11:30 a.m., Asbury Park police officers responded to an unrelated car crash at Sewall and Ridge avenues, LeMieux said. Officers on scene then saw a 2012 black Volkswagen Jetta being driven by Tamara Seidle turn onto Sewall Avenue. Behind it, LeMieux said, was Phillip Seidle in a 2005 Honda Pilot.

The couple's 7-year-old daughter was in Phillip Seidle's passenger seat, he said.

Tamara Seidle crashed her Jetta into an unoccupied green Ford Focus, LeMieux said. At that time, LeMieux said, Phillip Seidle got out of his car, took out his .40- caliber Glock service handgun and fired "several" shots into Tamara's Seidle's car.

Phillip Seidle then put the gun to his head and started pacing around the area of Tamara Seidle's Jetta, LeMieux said.

LeMieux said officers were able to talk Phillip Seidle into handing over the couple's daughter. Once the daughter was in police custody, Phillip Seidle then fired more shots at Tamara Seidle through her front windshield, he said.

Neighbors who witnessed the shooting said Phillip Seidle crashed his car into the back of his ex-wife's car before jumping out and getting in a brief argument with her.

Several times during the standoff, Phillip Seidle complained to police about not being able to see his children as much as he wanted, the neighbors said.

"He said, "You guys don't understand. I'm tired of paying alimony. I don't get to see my children,'" said the witness, who asked not to be identified.

During the standoff, Phillip Seidle held the gun to his head with his right hand while talking to someone on a cellphone he was holding in his left hand, the witness said.

The standoff came to an end after police officers, on one side of Sewall Avenue, slid a small black box about the size of an individual cupcake box to Seidle, who was standing on the other side of the street, the witness said.

After looking at the object, he raised his arms over his head and walked out into the street to surrender, the witness said. The witness said police officers surrounded Seidle, who was "bawling his eyes out." While taking him into custody, some of the officers hugged him and patted him comfortingly on the back, the witness said.

Neighbors said Phillip Seidle was known to residents in the area, which is on the border of Neptune Township, because he worked security at a Neptune business.

Officers were able to arrest Phillip Seidle shortly before noon, LeMieux said. He was brought to a satellite office of the Monmouth County Prosecutor's Office in Asbury Park.

LeMieux said Phillip Seidle was known to the officers on scene. When asked why officers didn't use force against Seidle while he fired off a second round of shots in police presence, LeMiuex said that's "under investigation at this point in time."

Phillip Seidle was charged with first-degree murder, possession of a weapon of unlawful purpose and endangering the welfare of a child.

The couple's divorce was final on May 27, LeMieux said. The couple was having issues over their children and Phillip Seidle wanted to speak with his ex-wife about being able to talk with his children more often, LeMieux said.

LeMieux said Tamara Seidle had custody over their nine children, who range in age from 7 to 24. Neighbors said two of the children had recently graduated from school.

"Our hearts and prayers go out to the Seidle children and to the family of Tamara Seidle," LeMieux, speaking at a press conference, said. "The police department is concerned for the well-being of the entire Seidle family in this difficult time."

He said the Neptune Police Department is committed to providing support and assistance to the Seidle family.

Tamara Seidle owned a house on Heritage Court in Neptune, property records show.

One neighbor, who asked not to be identified, said Seidle and his wife had been estranged for at least a year.

"She was a nice person," the neighbor said. "She loved her children. She always wanted to be a mother and she worked hard for them."

Phillip Seidle recently received a Monmouth County 200 Club valor award for being one of 13 officers who helped secure eight arrests in an October 2014 armed robbery in town.

Phillip Seidle is being held at the Monmouth County Correctional Facility in Freehold Township on $2 million bail with no 10 percent option. If convicted of murder, he is facing a minimum sentence of 30 years in a New Jersey state prison without parole and a maximum sentence of life in prison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 17, 2015, 07:23:51 PM
Cops go loony too, Tim.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2015, 07:28:15 PM
 My :wacko: was over the fact that the police did nothing to subdue this guy. Apparently a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun is deserving of summary execution, but a cop that goes nuts and starts gunning people down is treated with kid gloves.

http://www.app.com/story/news/crime/jersey-mayhem/2015/06/17/neptune-cop-kills-ex-wife/28855209/

Quote
Could victim in Neptune cop shooting have been saved?

Andrew Ford and  Paul D'Ambrosio, Asbury Park Press

After watching murder suspect and Neptune police Sgt. Philip Seidle shoot his ex-wife several times, officers used no force to stop him from firing a second barrage, eyewitnesses said and authorities confirmed.

Tamara Seidle, the victim and ex-wife of Philip Seidle, suffered multiple gunshot wounds, according to Monmouth County First Assistant Prosecutor Marc C. LeMieux.

The first shots, he said, flew when the officer fired his service weapon, a high-powered .40-caliber Glock, several times into the driver's side of her car. She was shot again when he walked to the front of her car and fired through the windshield.

Officers on the scene recognized Seidle, LeMieux said.

When asked by the Asbury Park Press why no police force was used to stop Seidle from firing his weapon a second time, LeMieux responded by saying "that is under investigation."


Two eyewitnesses interviewed by the Press said that the first Asbury Park police officer on the scene did not draw his weapon while the first set of shots were being fired into the car. The eyewitnesses did not want to be identified but showed videos that confirmed they were near the scene of the shooting.

The eyewitnesses said police knew that the Seidles' 7-year-old daughter was in the front passenger seat of Philip Seidle's Honda Pilot and were trying to creep up behind the car to rescue her.

Raw video taken by a third eyewitness appears to show two police officers, guns drawn, shielding themselves behind a vehicle as four shots are fired into the driver's side of Tamara's car. At least one officer points his weapon at the shooter as the firing stops.

LeMieux said Seidle had put his gun to his head after firing the first round of shots, and police negotiated with him to let the child go. After the child was taken to safety, LeMieux said, Seidle moved to the front of his ex-wife's car and fired multiple shots again.

Social media users from Facebook to Twitter criticized the lack of force and wondered if police showed restraint because Seidle was a fellow officer.

"The cops had plenty of time to take him down, but instead, allowed him to continue with his gun in his hand until he shot the woman and then they still did nothing? Even after the guy fired his gun? You know goddamn well, if we fired our gun, we woulda been killed. ... That poor woman had a chance...," a Facebook user identified as Jennifer LJ wrote.

Others said Seidle "is a great cop. He has been a support to families with autistic kids. He has kept a hot spot calm in Neptune for years," wrote a person who identified herself on Facebook as Sofia Guerra, owner/editor at Always Catholic.

LeMieux did not say when the investigation into the shooting would be concluded.


At the scene, police guided Siedle into an unmarked Chevrolet Impala. An officer sat beside him in the back seat as they drove away.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 17, 2015, 11:30:49 PM
I'm glad police are finally starting to get the message that maybe they shouldn't blow away the suspect first and ask questions later.  Now, granted, if the guy is in the process of finishing off his wife, firing at him may be a more appropriate action than giving him a hug, but baby steps.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2015, 06:38:42 PM
Autopsy report of Freddie Gray has been leaked

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/baltimore-unrest/freddie-gray-autopsy-shows-high-energy-injury-report-says-n380581
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on June 23, 2015, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 05:39:04 PMI am pretty sure the cop thought he was driving up on some 20something gang banger with a gun, and was all jacked up about being in a situation where he can justifiably use his weapon and be a hero saving the people from some clearly dangerous guy.

i imagine most cops go into dangerous situations afraid rather than excited
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 23, 2015, 07:07:21 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 23, 2015, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 05:39:04 PMI am pretty sure the cop thought he was driving up on some 20something gang banger with a gun, and was all jacked up about being in a situation where he can justifiably use his weapon and be a hero saving the people from some clearly dangerous guy.

i imagine most cops go into dangerous situations afraid rather than excited
I don't know if that's true, but in any case, most cops do not shoot people they shouldn't be shooting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on June 23, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
what i meant was cops should be presumed to have done the correct thing until it's proven otherwise. if there are problems with police administration, fix that administration. but the guys on the ground shouldn't be blamed, though they usually are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 24, 2015, 02:00:46 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 23, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
what i meant was cops should be presumed to have done the correct thing until it's proven otherwise. if there are problems with police administration, fix that administration. but the guys on the ground shouldn't be blamed, though they usually are.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 22, 2015, 04:16:02 AM
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b50268111f064a7aab88a0d1409d5096/da-its-too-early-know-how-woman-died-texas-jail-cell

QuoteVideo shows how traffic stop escalated into confrontation

HEMPSTEAD, Texas (AP) — A police dashboard video released Tuesday shows that a Texas state trooper tried to pull a black motorist out of her car, then drew his stun gun and threatened her after she refused to follow his orders during a traffic stop.

The roadside encounter swiftly escalated into a shouting confrontation as the officer attempted to drag 28-year-old Sandra Bland from her vehicle, with the officer at one point saying, "I will light you up," as he held the stun gun.

Days later, Bland was found dead in a jail cell in a case that has caused her family and supporters to dispute that she hanged herself with a plastic garbage bag, as authorities have said.

The video posted by the Texas Department of Public Safety shows the trooper stopping Bland for failure to signal a lane change. After he hands her a written warning, the trooper remarks that Bland seems irritated. The Illinois woman replies that she is irritated because she had changed lanes to make way for the trooper's car.

The conversation quickly turns hostile when the officer asks Bland to put out her cigarette and she asks why she can't smoke in her own car. The trooper then orders Bland to get out of the vehicle. She refuses, and he tells her she is under arrest
.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20140423034814%2Froblox-apocalypse-rising%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2a%2FAnchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly.jpg%2F500px-Anchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly.jpg&hash=af96541d0ec525daffddbec883707fd7d8f9df66)

Further refusals to get out bring a threat from the trooper to drag her out. He then pulls out a stun gun and makes the threat about lighting Bland up.

When she finally steps out of the vehicle, the trooper orders her to the side of the road. There, the confrontation continues off-camera but is still audible. The two keep yelling at each other as the officer tries to put Bland in handcuffs and waits for other troopers to arrive.

Out of the camera's view, Bland goes on protesting her arrest, repeatedly using expletives and calling the officer a "pussy." She screams that he's about to break her wrists and complains that he knocked her head into the ground.

Her death comes after nearly a year of heightened national scrutiny of police and their dealings with black suspects, especially those who have been killed by officers.

The case has resonated on social media, with posts questioning the official account and featuring the hashtags #JusticeForSandy and #WhatHappenedToSandyBland. Others referred to #SandySpeaks, the hashtag Bland used in monologues she posted on Facebook in which she talked about police brutality and said she had a calling from God to speak out against racism and injustice.

In an affidavit released Tuesday, the trooper said that after handcuffing her for becoming combative, she swung her elbows at him and kicked him in his right shin.

Trooper Brian Encinia said he then used force "to subdue Bland to the ground," and she continued to fight back. He arrested her for assault on a public servant.

The trooper, who has been on the force for just over a year, has been placed on administrative leave for violating unspecified police procedures and the Department of Public Safety's courtesy policy. The agency would not address questions about whether the trooper acted appropriately by drawing his stun gun or pulling her out of the vehicle.

"Regardless of the situation — it doesn't matter where it happens — a DPS state trooper has got an obligation to exhibit professionalism and be courteous ... and that wasn't the case in this situation," said Steven McCraw, the department director.

A law enforcement expert from Maryland said he was troubled by the video "from start to finish."

Vernon Herron, a senior policy analyst with the University of Maryland Center for Health and Homeland Security, said if the trooper intended to give her a warning, that's what he should have done, no matter what the woman said to him.

"A person's attitude or their demeanor is not probable cause to make an arrest," said Herron, who has more than 35 years of experience in public safety and law enforcement.

Bland was taken to the Waller County Jail about 60 miles northwest of Houston on July 10 and found dead July 13. A Texas Rangers investigation into her death is being supervised by the FBI.

Although a medical examiner has ruled Bland's death a suicide, supporters insist she was upbeat and looking forward to a new job at Prairie View A&M University, where she graduated in 2009. Bland's family and clergy members have called for a Justice Department probe, and an independent autopsy has been ordered.

At a memorial service Tuesday night at Bland's alma mater, her mother, Geneva Reed-Veal, reiterated that she doesn't believe Bland took her own life. She also spoke of her grief, saying, "I have a baby to put in the ground."

Bland posted a video to her Facebook page in March, saying she was suffering from "a little bit of depression as well as PTSD," or post-traumatic stress disorder. Family members have said nothing in her background suggested she was mentally troubled, and at least one friend said she was just venting after a bad day.

Court records show Bland had several encounters with police in both Illinois and Texas over the past decade, including repeated traffic stops and two arrests for drunk driving, one of which was later dismissed.

She was also charged twice with possession of a small amount of marijuana. A 2009 case was dismissed, but she pleaded guilty last year to the other charge and was sentenced to 30 days in jail.

A decade earlier, in June 2004, Bland was charged with one count of retail theft of less than $150 in Elmhurst, Illinois. She pleaded guilty and was fined.

The Waller County Sheriff's Office has acknowledged violating state rules on jail training and the monitoring of inmates.

The Texas Commission on Jail Standards last week cited the jail for not providing documents proving that jailers in the past year had undergone training on interacting with inmates who are mentally disabled or potentially suicidal.

The citation also showed that jailers fell short by not observing inmates in person at least once every hour.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 22, 2015, 04:22:43 AM
Meanwhile, in California:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-federal-judge-orders-release-of-videos-20150714-story.html#page=1

QuoteThis is the shooting video Gardena police didn't want you to see

The day after the release of videos showing Gardena police officers shooting two unarmed men, one fatally, the survivor and the deceased victim's brother called for a deeper investigation into the Gardena Police Department.

The brother of Ricardo Diaz Zeferino, who was killed in the 2013 shooting, spoke in front of the Edward R. Roybal Federal Building in Los Angeles on Wednesday as he clutched a copy of a photo of him and his brother.

"Nothing is sufficient, not even the money. A life is more important than the money," said Augustin Reynoso, Diaz Zeferino's brother. "I want the Gardena Police Department to be investigated more deeply. That's why I'm here, for justice."

Reynoso was joined by his family's attorney, Sonia Mercado, as well as Eutiquio Mendez, who was wounded in the shooting, and Mendez's attorney, R. Samuel Paz.

The attorneys called for the Department of Justice to investigate the Gardena Police Department.

"We have asked for an investigation into the civil rights violations by these officers, which we think merits a prosecution," Paz said. "We hope this case will become an example ... of what a police department should not be doing."

The U.S. attorney's office said it was "reviewing the matter" but had not formally opened an investigation. "As of this time, there is no investigation," spokesman Thom Mrozek said.

Video of the shooting that killed Diaz Zeferino was unsealed by a federal judge Tuesday after months of legal battles between the city and media outlets, including the Los Angeles Times.

The grainy videos, captured by cameras mounted in two patrol cars, show three men mistakenly suspected of stealing a bicycle standing in a street under the glare of police lights. With their weapons trained on the men, officers scream at them to keep their hands up.

While two of the men in the videos remain motionless, Diaz Zeferino appears confused by the officers' instructions. He drops and raises his arms repeatedly, showing the officers his hands and stepping backward and then forward a few paces. A laser dot from an officers' pistol can be seen on his shirt. After Diaz Zeferino removes a baseball cap from his head, officers standing to the side of the men unleash a volley of gunfire.


The videos show Diaz Zeferino, 35, collapsing to the ground, along with Mendez, who was wounded.

At Wednesday's news conference, Mercado said Diaz Zeferino had gone for a beer and to play pool around midnight June 2, 2013, after working 12 hours. He was later shot eight times by police.

"Mr. Ricardo Diaz Zeferino was a human being," Mercado said. "We're here so the Department of Justice will investigate this Police Department. Enough."

Diaz Zeferino worked in a restaurant 12 hours a day, seven days a week and helped support his parents and his two sisters — one who had an amputated leg and one who was studying to be a nurse, Reynoso said Wednesday.

"He was a good brother," said Reynoso, whose bicycle was stolen the night of the shooting.

Mendez, who still has a bullet fragment lodged next to his spine, also spoke briefly. Mendez said Diaz Zeferino had been cooperating with police that night and was trying to tell them that the two other men were not the bicycle thieves.

The police didn't listen to him, Mendez recounted.

"I feel nervous being here, but I want justice and an investigation. What they did to us isn't just," Mendez said. "They said they were going to investigate, but nothing's been done and the police continue working.

"I'm still traumatized by what happened. I'm not doing well," Mendez said. "I know I'm never going to be OK."

Mendez said that when Diaz Zeferino was shot, he heard him fall and say, "... I won't see you again."

And then Mendez fell unconscious, he said.

Mercado said the family called for the U.S. Department of Justice to set up an independent unit to investigate police shootings nationwide.

"Today we ask that they begin with the Gardena Police Department," Mercado said.

In unsealing the videos Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Stephen V. Wilson said the public had an interest in seeing the recordings, especially after the city settled a lawsuit over the shooting for $4.7 million. Wilson rejected last-ditch efforts by Gardena attorneys, who argued the city had paid the settlement money in the belief that the videos would remain under seal.

The "defendants' argument backfires here — the fact that they spent the city's money, presumably derived from taxes, only strengthens the public's interest in seeing the videos," Wilson wrote. "Moreover, while the videos are potentially upsetting and disturbing because of the events they depict, they are not overly gory or graphic in a way that would make them a vehicle for improper purposes."

The judge's decision was a response to a request from The Times, the Associated Press and Bloomberg, which challenged a blanket protective order that had prevented the release of the videos and other evidence in the court case.

Wilson's decision comes as law enforcement agencies nationwide increasingly have embraced the use of cameras worn by officers and placed in patrol cars to record police interactions with civilians. But few agencies have made their videos public, spurring a debate over the need to balance the privacy of those captured on the recordings and transparency in policing.

After ordering the videos to be released, Wilson denied a request from Gardena attorneys that he set aside his order as they pursued an appeal of his decision. The city then filed an emergency motion with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, asking it to intervene.

The Times, meanwhile, received copies of the videos from court officials. After The Times published the videos online, 9th Circuit Judge Alex Kozinski issued an order that "the police car camera video footage shall remain under seal pending further order of this court."

Gardena Police Chief Ed Medrano released a statement late Tuesday describing the shooting as "tragic for all involved."

"We have thoroughly reviewed our response and have initiated new training, including the tactical use of cover techniques to slow down fast-moving events," he said.

He said Gardena police officers will soon be equipped with body cameras and that he continues to oppose publicly releasing recordings out of privacy concerns.

"Our police officers are entrusted with sensitive and extremely personal information and we often come in contact with people under tragic situations and at their worst," he said. "We worry about the implications of this decision and its impact on victims and average citizens who are recorded by the police."

The Gardena shooting occurred the night of June 2, 2013, after police responded to a call about a bicycle stolen from outside a CVS drugstore. A police dispatcher mistakenly told officers the crime was a robbery, which typically involves weapons or force.

A sergeant responding to the call saw two men riding bicycles near the store. Mistaking them for the thieves, the sergeant stopped the men
, according to a memo written by a prosecutor from the L.A. County district attorney's office, who reviewed the case.

Diaz Zeferino ran up to join the other two men as police detained them. One patrol car video shows him continuing to walk toward his friends despite an officer shouting at him to stop. On the videos, officers can be heard repeatedly telling Diaz Zeferino to keep his hands up as he moves his arms up and down.

The three officers who opened fire — Christopher Mendez, Christopher Sanderson and Matthew Toda — were standing to the left side of the men.

The district attorney's office declined to file charges against the officers. Deputy Dist. Atty. Rosa Alarcon wrote in a memo about the shooting that Diaz Zeferino ignored police commands and that toxicology tests after his death were postive for alcohol and methamphetamine. His right hand, she wrote, was no longer visible from the officers' angle when they opened fire and it was reasonable for them to believe he was reaching for a weapon.

"They made a split-second decision and they were not required to hold fire in order to ascertain whether Diaz would, in fact, injure or kill them," she wrote.

When Diaz Zeferino's relatives and the other men filed a federal lawsuit against Gardena, attorneys for the men complained to Wilson that the city was dragging its feet in providing them with information about the shooting, according to Wilson's written ruling. Before turning anything over, attorneys for Gardena insisted on a protective order that would prevent the release of evidence in the case, Wilson wrote.

The city argued that the videos showed that Diaz Zeferino repeatedly ignored police commands and reached into his pockets and waistband area. But attorneys suing the city contended that the recordings showed a cold-blooded shooting of clearly unarmed men.

In May, when The Times first reported that the city had settled a civil rights lawsuit over the shooting, Medrano said the officers who opened fire were still on patrol. He said at the time that the department's internal investigation to determine whether discipline is warranted had been put on hold during the civil litigation.

Under California law, the outcome of the disciplinary investigation will remain confidential.

After settling the lawsuit, Diaz Zeferino's family and the other men supported the request of The Times and other media groups, saying the videos should be released. Gardena contended that releasing the video would deter police from using such cameras and would endanger the safety of its officers at a time of heightened public criticism of police killings.

The fact that the media groups needed an order from a federal judge to get access to the videos underscores the limited scope of California's laws on public records, said Peter Scheer, executive director of the First Amendment Coalition. The city had previously rejected The Times' request for the video.

Under the state's open records laws, Scheer said, Gardena police officials were well within their rights to keep the video footage secret.

"The take-away from this should be that California laws protecting police information and evidence are way too restrictive and make it too difficult to know what is going on," Scheer said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 29, 2015, 03:54:55 PM
Quote
Ohio cop indicted on murder charge in traffic-stop shooting
Associated Press

CINCINNATI (AP) — A University of Cincinnati officer who shot a motorist during a traffic stop over a missing front license plate has been indicted on murder charges, a prosecutor said Wednesday, adding that the officer "purposely killed him" and "should never have been a police officer."

Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters announced the grand jury indictment at a news conference to discuss developments in the investigation into the July 19 shooting of 43-year-old motorist Samuel DuBose by Officer Ray Tensing.

Authorities have said Tensing spotted a car driven by DuBose and missing the front license plate, which is required by Ohio law. They say Tensing stopped the car and a struggle ensued after DuBose refused to provide a driver's license and get out of the car.

Tensing has said he was dragged by the car and forced to shoot at DuBose. He fired one shot, striking DuBose in the head.

But Deters dismissed Tensing's claim that he was dragged by the car and suggested that he shouldn't have pulled DuBose over to begin with.

"He fell backward after he shot (DuBose) in the head," Deters said, adding that it was a "chicken crap" traffic stop.

A warrant was issued for Tensing's arrest. Deters said Tensing could either turn himself in or officers could arrest him.

Tensing's attorney, Stewart Mathews, didn't immediately return phone messages seeking comment after Deters' announcement.

Mathews said earlier Wednesday that he thought an indictment was likely "given the political climate" and comments made by city officials. But Mathews said given the evidence he's seen, he doesn't believe there should be an indictment.

DuBose's death comes amid months of national scrutiny of police dealings with African-Americans, especially those killed by officers. DuBose was black. Tensing is white. Authorities haven't indicated whether race was a part of the investigation.

Body-camera video of the shooting was also released Wednesday. DuBose's family had been pressing for its release, and news organizations including The Associated Press had sued Deters to get it released under Ohio open records law, but Deters released it before any ruling had been made.

Deters called the shooting "senseless" and "asinine."

"He purposely killed him," Deters said. "He should never have been a police officer."

Deters said when he saw the video of the shooting, he was shocked.

"I feel so sorry for this family and what they lost," Deters said. "And I feel sorry for the community, too."

The prosecutor also had sharp words for the University of Cincinnati Police Department as a whole.

"I don't think a university should be in the policing business," Deters said.

A message for comment was left Wednesday with the UC police department. The university said earlier this week it plans an independent review of its police department's policies.

The UC officer made the traffic stop near the university's main campus, and UC police have said the intersection was within the campus police's jurisdiction.

The University of Cincinnati on Wednesday closed its main campus in anticipation of grand jury action in the case.

Mark O'Mara, attorney for DuBose's family, called for a "peaceful and nonaggressive" response from the community after the officer's indictment. O'Mara said the family wanted a peaceful reaction because "Sam was a peaceful person."

Tensing has more than five years of experience in law enforcement and has worked as a University of Cincinnati police officer since April 2014, said Jason Goodrich, UC police chief. His annual performance review this April noted that he was extremely strong in the traffic area and maintains control of his weapons and of "situations he is involved in."

Tensing formerly worked as an officer in the small Cincinnati suburban village of Greenhills

If convicted, Tensing could face up to life in prison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2015, 04:24:14 PM
The video seemed pretty damning.  I'm still not sure how the situation escalated so quickly.  I'm guessing DuBose put his car in drive and was planning on driving off when the cop totally lost his shit and shot him in the head. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on July 29, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Does it matter whether or not the driver should've been pulled over? If he fails to comply with very simple orders given by the police and then tries to drive away with a cop hanging in the window he's not without fault in this.

Going straight for your gun in this situation is way way too much though. Also leaning inside the car (I guess to turn the engine off) also is pretty fucking stupid.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 29, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Does it matter whether or not the driver should've been pulled over?

Technically the cop had reason to pull DuBose over.  He was driving without a license plate on the front bumper (he had one on the back). State law currently says you have to have them on both front and back, but that is something that is usually overlooked.  When he pulled DuBose over, he asked DuBose for his license and DuBose wouldn't answer whether he had it or not.  Then the cop noticed an open (?) container of alcohol in the floor of the vehicle.

QuoteIf he fails to comply with very simple orders given by the police and then tries to drive away with a cop hanging in the window he's not without fault in this.

It's not clear to me that the cop was hanging in the window while the car was moving, and if he was I wonder how he was able to shoot his pistol at DuBose. 

QuoteGoing straight for your gun in this situation is way way too much though. Also leaning inside the car (I guess to turn the engine off) also is pretty fucking stupid.

The best I can piece together was that the cop was opening the door to begin the arrest procedure (I've seen a video where the correct procedure was detailed).  DuBose then pulled the door back to shut it, then some sort of scuffling ensued and the cop shot DuBose.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2015, 04:42:00 PM
Also, interesting to note that the lawyer for the DuBose family is one of the lawyers that defended Zimmerman :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 04:47:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 29, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Does it matter whether or not the driver should've been pulled over?

Technically the cop had reason to pull DuBose over.  He was driving without a license plate on the front bumper (he had one on the back). State law currently says you have to have them on both front and back, but that is something that is usually overlooked.  When he pulled DuBose over, he asked DuBose for his license and DuBose wouldn't answer whether he had it or not.  Then the cop noticed an open (?) container of alcohol in the floor of the vehicle.

QuoteIf he fails to comply with very simple orders given by the police and then tries to drive away with a cop hanging in the window he's not without fault in this.

It's not clear to me that the cop was hanging in the window while the car was moving, and if he was I wonder how he was able to shoot his pistol at DuBose. 

QuoteGoing straight for your gun in this situation is way way too much though. Also leaning inside the car (I guess to turn the engine off) also is pretty fucking stupid.

The best I can piece together was that the cop was opening the door to begin the arrest procedure (I've seen a video where the correct procedure was detailed).  DuBose then pulled the door back to shut it, then some sort of scuffling ensued and the cop shot DuBose.

Everything the cop did seems to be fine, up until he shoots a fleeing suspect.  You don't get to do that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 29, 2015, 11:14:38 PM
He also lied about it and the thin blue line back him up.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/07/29/the_sam_dubose_police_report_is_full_of_falsehoods_from_ray_tensing_s_colleagues.html

QuoteThe Sam Dubose Police Report Is Full of Falsehoods From Ray Tensing's Fellow Officers

By Jeremy Stahl

After University of Cincinnati police officer Ray Tensing was charged with murdering Sam Dubose, an unarmed black man who had been pulled over on a traffic stop, it was clear that the police body cam video of the shooting played an enormous role in the indictment.

Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters said a prosecution became urgent "especially after we saw the tape."

"I think it's a good idea for police to wear them," Deters said when he was asked if there would have been a prosecution without the video. "Because nine times out of 10 it clears them of wrongdoing. And in this case, it obviously led to an indictment for murder."

Cincinnati Mayor John Cranley added that "this case is going to help the cause of body cameras across the country."

Mark O'Mara, a lawyer representing Dubose's family, was even more forceful.

"If we didn't have a video, I do not believe we would have had an indictment," he said.

In a press conference Dubose's sister, Terina Allen, gave the most emotionally powerful argument about the importance of having the recording from Tensing's body camera.

"If it were not for that video camera, Sam would be no different than all of the other [unindicted police shootings of black men], because the second officer was ready to corroborate every lie that the first officer said in the report," Allen said.

Allen raised the important point that Tensing's story that he was dragged by the car before shooting—which Deters roundly rejected and cannot be seen anywhere in the video—was backed up by his fellow officers.

Reading the initial police report after having watched the video is a frightful lesson on the lengths to which officers will go to protect one another.

In the report, Tensing tells the reporting officer—Eric Weibel—that "he was attempting a traffic stop ... when, at some point, he began to be dragged by a male black driver who was operating a 1998 Green Honda Accord."

"Officer Tensing stated that he almost was run over by the driver of the Honda Accord and was forced to shoot the driver with his duty weapon," Weibel's report continues.

Later, "Tensing repeated that he was being dragged by the vehicle and had to fire his weapon."

As Deters noted, and as you can see by slowing the video down, Tensing fired almost immediately as Dubose's car began to roll away.

Tensing's claim that he only shot after he was dragged, though, was supported by a second officer who claimed to be on the scene named Phillip Kidd.

"Officer Kidd told me that he witnessed the Honda Accord drag Officer Tensing, and that he witnessed Officer Tensing fire a single shot," Weibel's report reads.

Tensing also claimed to be injured by Dubose. But Deters contradicted that as well, saying, "No, he wasn't dragged. He fell backwards after he shot him in the head."

Again, Tensing's fellow officers backed up the claim of injuries at the hand of Dubose. In dispatcher audio of the incident, the New York Times reported that you can hear another officer saying Tensing was injured. In the report itself, the responding officer seems to attempt to back up his colleague.

"Looking at Officer Tensing's uniform, I could see that the back of his pants and shirt looked as if it had been dragged over a rough surface," Weibel wrote. "I suggested to Officer Tensing that he should go to the hospital for an examination."

The video shows Tensing chasing the car, which went out of control when Dubose was killed, after firing his shot, not being "dragged over a rough surface."

Deters made a point to emphasize that the video clearly demonstrates that the shooting was not standard operating procedure, or the appropriate split-second decision of a cop who was just trying to protect himself. "He wasn't dealing with somebody who was wanted for murder. He was dealing with somebody who didn't have a front license plate," Deters said. "If he's starting to roll away just, seriously, let him go. I mean you don't have to shoot him in the head."

The police report and the various embellishments or outright lies Tensing's brothers in arms told in order to back up his account are the clearest evidence supporting Allen's belief that her brother's killer would not be facing prosecution without a video.

But it's not the only evidence. As the Washington Post's Wesley Lowery and Mark Berman noted, "Police officers are rarely charged after fatally shooting people. A Washington Post investigation found that thousands of police shootings over the last decade have resulted in a few dozen officers being charged."

According to a Post database tracking police shootings, more than 550 people have been shot and killed by cops this year alone and only three officers had been charged with crimes. In two of the previous shootings where cops were actually held accountable in some way, there was video evidence.

As for what happens next for officers Kidd and Weibel, who supported Tensing's false account, Deters said the city was "looking at the issue" at the urging of the Dubose family.

Weibel's report did get one thing right—perhaps the most important thing. It concludes by saying "Officer Tensing stated that the incident was caught on his University issued body camera."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 29, 2015, 11:21:49 PM
This is why I have no problem generalizing and calling all cops racist murdering pig fuckers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 11:33:10 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 29, 2015, 11:21:49 PM
This is why I have no problem generalizing and calling all cops racist murdering pig fuckers.

and I have no problem calling you a fucking asshole.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:33:44 PM
I think it's time to charge cops under RICO statutes.  The thin blue line is not materially different from mafia omerta, and should be combatted with the same tools.  I would even be in favor of lenient pleas for the murdering cops if they sell out their co-conspirators as part of the deal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 11:33:10 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 29, 2015, 11:21:49 PM
This is why I have no problem generalizing and calling all cops racist murdering pig fuckers.

and I have no problem calling you a fucking asshole.
I think there is more than enough evidence to claim that the vast majority of cops will commit felonies to cover up for their racist and murdering collegues.  Not sure about the pig fucking collegues, though, there haven't been too many public cases about that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 11:38:54 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:33:44 PM
I think it's time to charge cops under RICO statutes.  The thin blue line is not materially different from mafia omerta, and should be combatted with the same tools.  I would even be in favor of lenient pleas for the murdering cops if they sell out their co-conspirators as part of the deal.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 11:39:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 11:33:10 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 29, 2015, 11:21:49 PM
This is why I have no problem generalizing and calling all cops racist murdering pig fuckers.

and I have no problem calling you a fucking asshole.
I think there is more than enough evidence to claim that the vast majority of cops will commit felonies to cover up for their racist and murdering collegues.  Not sure about the pig fucking collegues, though, there haven't been too many public cases about that.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:43:19 PM
Yes, Beeb, we all know that you personally know many cops, and that they are all upstanding citizens who will never tolerate even their collegues tying their ties with an improper knot.  I do not doubt that you truly sincerely believe that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 29, 2015, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:43:19 PM
Yes, Beeb, we all know that you personally know many cops, and that they are all upstanding citizens who will never tolerate even their collegues tying their ties with an improper knot.  I do not doubt that you truly sincerely believe that.

:ike:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
Do you have anything substantive to say?  I mean, in this particular incident, we have cops falsifying their reports.  In the South Carolina case, we have at least one cop on tape participating in the cover-up.  We also appear to have very few cases of murders by cops brought to light due to the testimony of their collegues rather than due to videos that surface.  Do you have anything to say about that, or are you going to continue with your Pat Lynch schtick?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 12:08:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
Do you have anything substantive to say?  I mean, in this particular incident, we have cops falsifying their reports.  In the South Carolina case, we have at least one cop on tape participating in the cover-up.  We also appear to have very few cases of murders by cops brought to light due to the testimony of their collegues rather than due to videos that surface.  Do you have anything to say about that, or are you going to continue with your Pat Lynch schtick?

I'm going to continue with how I treated Jaron back in the day:

:ike:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 30, 2015, 12:22:35 AM
I won't speak for everyone authoritatively, but if I had to guess, I would say that you're not fooling anyone with your "Jaron treatment". 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 30, 2015, 01:09:16 AM
:D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 30, 2015, 02:18:51 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
We also appear to have very few cases of murders by cops brought to light due to the testimony of their collegues rather than due to videos that surface.

Murderers generally try not to be witnessed by cops in the act, even if they are cops themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 30, 2015, 08:09:13 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/a-prosecutor-on-the-killer-cop-he-indicted-this-should-not-happen-ever/400007/?utm_source=SFFB

QuoteA Prosecutor on the Killer Cop He Indicted: 'This Should Not Happen, Ever'

On Wednesday, as officials in Hamilton County, Ohio, released video footage of University of Cincinnati Police Officer Ray Tensing shooting unarmed motorist Samuel DuBose in the head during a traffic stop, prosecutor Joe Deters conducted himself as professionally and appropriately as any prosecutor I've ever seen in a similar situation.

The 30-year veteran, who announced that Officer Tensing was being indicted for murder, took immediate care to affirmatively state that the victim in the case was not responsible for his fate. "This is the most asinine act I've ever seen a police officer make," he told reporters. "People want to believe that Mr. DuBose had done something violent toward the officer; he did not. He did not at all. And I feel so sorry for his family and what they lost. And I feel sorry for the community, too."

The balance of the press conference shows an official forthrightly disseminating difficult facts, explaining to the press exactly why he temporarily suppressed video evidence, fielding questions, expressing upset at a crime perpetrated by an agent of the state, offering words of comfort to the family, and urging calm in the community. And it suggests a prosecutor who gave no special treatment to the policeman.

"What's the message to the community or to other police officers?" one reporter asked.

"Look," the prosecutor answered, "we're gonna follow the law in this office and we are going, if the facts fit the law, we're gonna pursue that no matter if you're a police officer or you're Pope Francis, I don't care who you are, we're gonna go after you."

More strikingly, he spoke about the case just as he would about a non-cop indicted for murder. "Purposeful killing of another, that's what makes it murder," he said. "He purposefully killed him." Here's a longer illustrative exchange with a reporter:

Deters: If we think something is awry, we go after it. A warrant for his arrest has gone out and hopefully they'll pick him up soon.

Q: ... Have you discussed is he going to turn himself in at a scheduled time? Have you talked to his attorney about it?

Deters: I'm treating him like a murderer.

Q: Is he in custody right now?

Deters: They're out to get him. We asked his lawyer to turn him in if he wants, but we're going to arrest him.

Q: As we speak?

Deters: Yes.

And here's another important exchange about the moment when the motorist, asked to produce his license, took his foot off the brake and the car lurched slowly forward:

Q: What should the officer have done in this case? You said he reacted moments before the car slowly rolled away and the officer fired. What should he have done?

Deters: He wasn't dealing with someone who was wanted for murder, he was dealing with someone who didn't have a front license plate. I mean, this is—in the vernacular—a pretty chicken-crap stop, alright? And I could use harsher words. But, nonetheless, if he's starting to roll away, just—seriously—let him go, you don't have to shoot him in the head. And that's what happened.

Later in the press conference, the prosecutor volunteered that future tragedies might be averted, in his view, if Cincinnati police officers rather than University of Cincinnati cops policed areas near campus, and that he'd already advised local leaders to make the change. I have no idea whether his assessment is correct, but it is heartening to see any member of the criminal-justice system going above and beyond his immediate duties to suggest reforms that might prevent future injustices.

A final notable moment of forthrightness came when a reporter asked about the utility of video footage in the case, and Deters acknowledged that if he were dealing with the officer's verbal account of what happened rather than video evidence, there probably wouldn't have been any murder indictment or arrest in the first place. That brings us to the one aspect of a stellar performance that warrants criticism.

"The policemen I know and the investigators I work with everyday, this situation would have never have escalated like this ... I feel so sorry for his family and what they lost. And I feel sorry for the community, too," Deters said. "Because we've worked so hard to develop great police relationships with the community and to have this type of a senseless act take place in Cincinnati. This doesn't happen in the United States. This might happen in Afghanistan or somewhere ... This just does not happen in the United States. People don't just get shot for a traffic stop unless they are violent toward the police officer. And he wasn't. You're gonna see it."

I cannot speak to the overall quality of policing in Cincinnati. But it just isn't true that "this doesn't happen in the United States." We know it happens because we've seen it before.

The prosecutor is surely familiar with the North Charleston police officer who shot and killed Walter Scott during a traffic stop just a few months ago, making national headlines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQqgVlk0NQ

He may not have seen, but should review, footage of a 70-year-old man shot during a traffic stop when a highway patrolman mistook his cane for a firearm of some sort:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk1z-YoeAng

As well, he should watch police officers in Albuquerque, New Mexico, firing at a minivan full of kids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBL6AEkvLbk

And the man at a Columbia, South Carolina, gas station shot by a police officer as he attempted to produce his driver's license:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE

These incidents happen more frequently than is captured on video. And they raise the question of how many videos of this sort must emerge before conscientious prosecutors begin to accept what many Americans only started believing in the YouTube era: that while this sort of thing mostly doesn't happen in England or Denmark or Spain, it happens with alarming frequency in the United States. The present case almost certainly would've turned out differently but for the existence of video. And that should make Deters more cautious in the future about presuming that the version of events given by police officers is the truth.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 30, 2015, 09:08:55 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 30, 2015, 02:18:51 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
We also appear to have very few cases of murders by cops brought to light due to the testimony of their collegues rather than due to videos that surface.

Murderers generally try not to be witnessed by cops in the act, even if they are cops themselves.
Doesn't mean they always succeed.  And you don't have to be witnessing the crime yourself.  If you see a guy planting a taser next to the guy he just shot, and go along with the program, you're a still a witness who chose to cover for your colleague.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 31, 2015, 07:11:29 AM
Good on that prosecutor.^^^

Looks like they got more evidence.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/07/30/sam_dubose_murder_phillip_kidd_and_david_lindenschmidt_suspended_after_backing.html

QuoteNew Body Cam Videos Show Cops Coalescing Around False Narrative of Sam DuBose Killing

By Jeremy Stahl
screen_shot_20150730_at_8.10.57_pm
David Lindenschmidt's body camera shows how a false narrative of Sam DuBose's killing was constructed.

Screen capture fromUniversity of Cincinnati police.

Two police officers who supported the apparently false narrative given by officer Ray Tensing to justify his fatal shooting of unarmed black motorist Sam DuBose have been placed on paid administrative leave, as two new videos that seem to further damage all three officers' original accounts were made public on Thursday.

Tensing was charged with murdering DuBose on Wednesday and city officials released video footage from his body camera that seemed to contradict the officer's account that he shot DuBose in self-defense after being dragged by the driver's car.
Advertisement

On Thursday, Tensing pled not guilty to murdering DuBose and his lawyer said the charges were unwarranted. Stewart Mathews also gave a possible preview of his client's defense, saying that the officer was knocked to the ground, dragged, and "feared for his life."

This account—which appeared to be contradicted by the video from Tensing's body camera that showed him firing his gun and then falling down—was very similar to the stories initially given by two of Tensing's fellow University of Cincinnati officers on the scene, Phillip Kidd and David Lindenschmidt, who have both now been placed on leave.

Furthermore, the body cameras of Kidd and Lindenschmidt—made public on Thursday—show just how quickly Tensing and his colleagues coalesced around a false narrative of how the incident occurred. The footage should serve as a powerful lesson to anyone who automatically believes the accounts of police officers in these types of shooting incidents, for which cops are rarely prosecuted.

In Kidd's video, he can be seen chasing after DuBose's car alongside Tensing after the fatal shot was fired and the vehicle went out of control. After the car crashes and the chase ends, you can hear Tensing say "I thought he was going to run me over."

As Tensing appears to formulate his story, you can hear Kidd confirm it aloud. Tensing says "he was dragging me" and Kidd replies "yeah, I saw that."

At the three minute and 30 second mark in the above video, Tensing repeats "he was dragging me, man" and then says "I just got my hand and my arm caught." Again, Kidd replies "I saw that." Kidd then curses and asks Tensing "what was he reaching for?" Tensing replies "He kept reaching around. I told him to step out of the car. He couldn't produce a license."

Tensing then says "I almost got ran over" and Kidd responds "don't—don't say anything," before cursing again.

Later in the video, another officer asks Kidd if he saw Tensing being dragged and he says "yes."

Kidd backed up Tensing's account in the official police report of the incident. Lindenschmidt, however, was portrayed as more circumspect in that document, which says "It is unclear how much of this incident [officer in training] Lindenschmidt witnessed."

But Lindenschmidt's body cam video, which also starts off with him chasing DuBose's out-of-control car, shows him supporting what appears to be a false narrative of the shooting as well.

Lindenschmidt initially asks Tensing "what'd he pull on you?" After Tensing doesn't answer, he asks again "he pulled?" This time, Tensing responds "he didn't reach for anything."

At about the four-minute mark in the above video Lindenschmidt tells another officer the exact opposite, though. "He had a traffic stop, the guy took off from him. The officer got caught in his car, because the guy reached for something—he thought—and so he grabbed onto the car," Lindenschmidt says, contradicting what Tensing had just told him. "Our officer went down, he got tangled in the car, drew his gun and fired."

At just after the seven-minute mark, Lindenschmidt actually describes the shooting accurately, though, saying that Tensing fired before the car went dangerously out of control. (In the video, the car appears to go out of control only after DuBose had been shot when he had apparently attempted to start to pull the car away from Tensing.) "I was right behind him. He fired from right here and the guy took off," Lindenschmidt says to another officer, getting the order of events correct.

Lindenschmidt then appears to go back to the other order: "I just arrived to back him up when the guy took off. The officer was stuck in the vehicle. Fired one round."

At the end of the video, Lindenschmidt says "I'm going to turn my camera off" before being instructed to "keep it on for now." That's when the footage ends.

Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters told the Cincinnati Enquirer on Thursday that he told DuBose's family his office would examine what Tensing's colleagues "said and how they said it, but I did urge them to remember that our focus is on the shooting."

In an emotional press conference on Wednesday, DuBose's sister Terina Allen said that Tensing would not have been indicted without the video footage "because the second officer was ready to corroborate every lie that the first officer said in the report."

The Enquirer also reported that Kidd and Eric Weibel, the officer who wrote the initial report on the incident, had been named as defendants in a 2010 wrongful death lawsuit by the family of an unarmed mentally ill man who died a few days after being restrained and tasered by police.

Weibel included what can at the very least be described as his own embellished description of how Tensing looked like his clothes "had been dragged over a rough surface" after the incident. He has not yet been reported to have been placed on administrative leave.

The Enquirer also reported that Kidd could be charged for giving a false statement.

"It was a false statement. The video evidence doesn't support it," Philip Stinson, a Bowling Green State University criminologist who gathers data on officer arrests, said of Kidd's description of the incident. "There seems to be the elements of a crime there."

The Fraternal Order of Police of Ohio chairman Bruce Szilagyi seemed to support the officers in question when he said that video footage didn't always tell the whole story. "People who watch an encounter on video using the slow motion setting to determine what happened have a luxury that police on the street don't," Szilagyi said."We make split second decisions. Some are right, some are wrong. but all of our decisions are made with an eye toward protecting the public and ourselves."

Jeremy Stahl is a Slate senior editor. You can follow him on Twitter.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 10, 2015, 10:22:51 AM
Glad things have settled down in Ferguson.  Never mind that the "hands up" thing never actually happened :rolleyes:

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-marks-anniversary-notorious-us-police-shooting-102429039.html

QuoteTensions flare in Ferguson on police shooting anniversary

AFP By Loic Hofstedt

Ferguson (United States) (AFP) - Tensions flared in the US city of Ferguson late Sunday as looters targeted at least one store following a day of somber remembrance to mark the anniversary of the police shooting of an unarmed black teen.

Related Stories

Ferguson protests one year after Brown police shooting AFP
Ferguson protests mostly peaceful on anniversary of Brown shooting Reuters
Shots fired at protest marking anniversary of Brown's death Associated Press
The Latest: Police confirm shooting at Ferguson protest Associated Press
Ferguson marks one year since Michael Brown shooting CBS News
A crowd of about 50 people looted a beauty store in the St. Louis suburb and protesters grew confrontational late in the evening. There was no immediate word of any arrests.

Demonstrators had taken to the streets of Ferguson to mark the anniversary of 18-year-old Michael Brown's death in a fateful encounter on August 9, 2014 with officer Darren Wilson.

The shooting -- and a subsequent decision not to indict Wilson -- led to violent unrest and set off nationwide protests and intense scrutiny of heavy-handed police tactics in a series of cases that ended in the deaths of unarmed blacks.

Sunday's day of remembrance had been peaceful until a handful of protesters grew rowdy later in the evening. A crowd of about 300 people had gathered earlier to mark the anniversary, during which they observed four and a half minutes of silence and released two white doves.

The time represented the four and a half hours that Brown's body lay face down in the street before being taken away.

Many in the crowd in Ferguson wore T-shirts emblazoned with Brown's portrait and the words "Choose Change." Others carried signs, including one that read: "STOP killing black children."

They then set off in a silent march through Ferguson to the Greater St. Mark's Church, which served as a sanctuary during the protests following Brown's death.

Brown's father, also called Michael, said he was grateful so many people had turned out for the march.

"If it wasn't for y'all this would be swept under the carpet. So I just want to give my love out to y'all," he said to the crowd.

In New York, dozens of people gathered at Union Square to hold a vigil for Brown in solidarity with Ferguson and to call for ongoing demonstrations against police killings of minorities.

About 100 people gathered in Brooklyn earlier, staging a symbolic "die-in" to protest Brown's shooting. Police arrested several people.

- 'Glacial' progress -

One year on, black leaders say they have witnessed a dramatic change in American attitudes toward race, but see little action by lawmakers to enact policing reforms.

Yet another high-profile shooting occurred Friday, when a Texas police officer fatally shot 19-year-old unarmed college football player Christian Taylor after he drove his vehicle through the front of a car dealership.

The head of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, one of the country's oldest civil rights group, called the pace of legislative change "glacial."

"In terms of legislative action, 40 legislators have taken up some measure of holding police departments accountable but only a tiny fraction of which actually moved towards holding police departments accountable," said NAACP president Cornell William Brooks in an interview with CBS's Face the Nation.

He urged passage of laws against racial profiling by police and support for reforms requiring body cameras, independent prosecutors and retraining of US police departments.

Erica Snipes, the daughter of Eric Garner, who died after being held in a chokehold by police in New York, also appealed for reform.
"This year has just been so hard. No accountability, no justice. Police are still killing us -- it's a crisis that's going on," she said at the rally in Ferguson.

President Barack Obama meanwhile dismissed criticism that he had been too reluctant to tackle issues of race early in his tenure as America's first African-American president.

"I feel a great urgency to get as much done as possible," he said in an interview with NPR, parts of which were released Sunday.

"And, there's no doubt that after over six and a half years on this job, I probably have an easier time juggling a lot of different issues. And, it may be that my passions show a little bit more. Just because I have been around this track for now for a while."

Outrage over the police killings of Brown and other black Americans in the past year has been channeled into a sustained nationwide movement with the social media hashtag #Blacklivesmatter becoming its rallying cry.

On Saturday, protesters in Ferguson had marched along one of the avenues hit by fierce rioting last November when a court decided not to indict Wilson.

The peaceful march, led by Brown's father, saw participants shout slogans such as "Hands up, don't shoot" and "We do this for who? We do this for Mike Brown."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 10, 2015, 10:35:41 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 30, 2015, 12:22:35 AM
I won't speak for everyone authoritatively, but if I had to guess, I would say that you're not fooling anyone with your "Jaron treatment". 

+1

If nothing else, you made an excellent point previously - one that should be emphasied.

Cops have killed thousands of people. In most cases, those shootings are likely justified.

However, just statitstics tells us that our of those thousands, some tens? Hundreds? are not.

If cops are mostly upstanding, law abiding people, how many cases do we know of where a police officer has been charged and convicted based solely on the testimony of a fellow police officer who witnessed the event?

I suspect the answer is somewhere close to zero.

I don't think most cops are willing to kill indiscriminately. But it does seem most are willing to tolerate and protect those who have...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 10, 2015, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2015, 10:22:51 AM
Glad things have settled down in Ferguson.  Never mind that the "hands up" thing never actually happened :rolleyes:

It is the principle Spicey.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 10, 2015, 04:42:56 PM
It's a clusterfuck up in Ferguson.  The crowds have acted disgracefully.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 10, 2015, 08:31:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 10, 2015, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2015, 10:22:51 AM
Glad things have settled down in Ferguson.  Never mind that the "hands up" thing never actually happened :rolleyes:

It is the principle Spicey.

Principle of false narratives?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 11, 2015, 02:32:50 AM
Police brutality is a problem.  It simply wasn't the problem here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 08:34:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 11, 2015, 02:32:50 AM
Police brutality is a problem.  It simply wasn't the problem here.

Agree. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 08:39:11 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2015, 08:31:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 10, 2015, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2015, 10:22:51 AM
Glad things have settled down in Ferguson.  Never mind that the "hands up" thing never actually happened :rolleyes:

It is the principle Spicey.

Principle of false narratives?

The cause is bigger than the truth or something.

And somebody decided Ferguson is the most racist place in America or something.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 11, 2015, 08:41:48 AM
:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 08:56:49 AM
Uh oh, garbon's not pleased.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 09:46:16 AM
Oh dear I do try to stay garbon-approved.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 11, 2015, 10:14:37 AM
http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/08/cops-probe-womans-vagina-in-search-of-weed.html?mid=facebook_nymag

QuoteCops Probe Woman's Vagina in Search of Weed

A Spring, Texas, woman has gone public with her story of having her vagina forcibly searched by cops when they claimed that they could smell weed in her car. Charnesia Corley, a 21-year-old African-American woman, had allegedly run through a stop sign when a Harris County patrol car pulled her over on June 21. When a deputy officer claimed he smelled weed in Corley's car, he handcuffed her and put her in the back of the patrol car while they searched her vehicle. The officer found nothing in the car.

However, upon returning to the patrol car, the deputy officer claimed he smelled the weed in his car now, and that he'd have to call a female officer in to search Corley's body for weed. From KTRK:

"She tells me to pull my pants down. I said, 'Ma'am, I don't have any underwear on.' She says, 'Well, that doesn't matter. Pull your pants down,'" Corley said.

She admits hesitating. Deputies say she resisted.

"I bend over and she proceeds to try to force her hand inside of me. I tell her, 'Ma'am, No. You cannot do this,'" Corley told us candidly.


Because the probe took place in a public parking lot and because Corley says that she did not give her consent, Corley's lawyer says that the search was "unconstitutional" and she is filing a complaint with the Harris County Sheriff's Office. Corley told KTRK, "I feel like they sexually assaulted me! I really do. I feel disgusted, downgraded, humiliated."

A spokesperson for the Harris County Sheriff's Office, Thomas Gilliland, says that both officers did everything as they should have.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 11, 2015, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 11, 2015, 10:14:37 AM
http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/08/cops-probe-womans-vagina-in-search-of-weed.html?mid=facebook_nymag

QuoteCops Probe Woman's Vagina in Search of Weed

A Spring, Texas, woman has gone public with her story of having her vagina forcibly searched by cops when they claimed that they could smell weed in her car. Charnesia Corley, a 21-year-old African-American woman, had allegedly run through a stop sign when a Harris County patrol car pulled her over on June 21. When a deputy officer claimed he smelled weed in Corley's car, he handcuffed her and put her in the back of the patrol car while they searched her vehicle. The officer found nothing in the car.

However, upon returning to the patrol car, the deputy officer claimed he smelled the weed in his car now, and that he'd have to call a female officer in to search Corley's body for weed. From KTRK:

"She tells me to pull my pants down. I said, 'Ma'am, I don't have any underwear on.' She says, 'Well, that doesn't matter. Pull your pants down,'" Corley said.

She admits hesitating. Deputies say she resisted.

"I bend over and she proceeds to try to force her hand inside of me. I tell her, 'Ma'am, No. You cannot do this,'" Corley told us candidly.


Because the probe took place in a public parking lot and because Corley says that she did not give her consent, Corley's lawyer says that the search was "unconstitutional" and she is filing a complaint with the Harris County Sheriff's Office. Corley told KTRK, "I feel like they sexually assaulted me! I really do. I feel disgusted, downgraded, humiliated."

A spokesperson for the Harris County Sheriff's Office, Thomas Gilliland, says that both officers did everything as they should have.

Jesus Fucking Christ.

Do cops not ever get a memo or training or something along the lines of "Just because you *can* do something does not mean you MUST do something. Sometimes it is ok to just let it go..."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 12:10:53 PM
Well, they didn't shoot her. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 11, 2015, 12:15:23 PM
Why not?  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 11, 2015, 12:17:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
Do you have anything substantive to say?  I mean, in this particular incident, we have cops falsifying their reports.  In the South Carolina case, we have at least one cop on tape participating in the cover-up.  We also appear to have very few cases of murders by cops brought to light due to the testimony of their collegues rather than due to videos that surface.  Do you have anything to say about that, or are you going to continue with your Pat Lynch schtick?
Speaking anecdotally, there seems to be a fairly significant difference in police culture between Canada and the US that may be contributing to the disconnect. I would have responded similarly to how BB does before I moved here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 12:18:19 PM
It is frustrating to me how the Black Lives Matter crowd has decided to package police reform with radical leftwing programs of all stripes to the point of going after Bernie Sanders as some kind of oppressor. No we do not have to break down all of society just to reform the police departments. Talk about marginalizing yourself and undermining your cause. They cannot get any sort of political traction this way unless their plan is to act as a revolutionary vanguard.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 11, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 12:18:19 PM
It is frustrating to me how the Black Lives Matter crowd has decided to package police reform with radical leftwing programs of all stripes to the point of going after Bernie Sanders as some kind of oppressor. No we do not have to break down all of society just to reform the policy departments. Talk about marginalizing yourself. They cannot get any sort of political traction this was unless their plan is to act as a revolutionary vanguard.
That always happens.  At first the Tea Party was only about not doing the bailouts, then before you know it all of the Christian right wingers were in it pushing their idiotic agenda, too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 12:28:01 PM
The shouting Bernie Sanders off the stage thing is bizarre, yet given that they had already tried to do it, not surprising.  Also kinda funny.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 11, 2015, 12:31:29 PM
If you're actually stoned while driving and white, in Iowa, you're luckier:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/drunk/iowa-dui-selfie-786501

QuoteAUGUST 7--After being taken into custody for driving while under the influence of marijuana, a 20-year-old Iowa man asked his arresting

officer to pose with him for a Snapchat "selfie," a request that the cop "happily obliged," according to a criminal complaint.

Gilbert Phelps was behind the wheel of a 2000 Toyota Camry around 2 AM yesterday when the vehicle was pulled over for speeding and having an obstructed registration sticker.

During his questioning of Phelps, Iowa City Police Department Officer Ben Hektoen detected the odor of "ingested alcohol" inside the car. Hektoen reported that Phelps copped to "smoking marijuana prior to driving," adding that the suspect displayed "measurable impairment" during a series of field sobriety tests.

After a Breathalyzer test registered a .0 blood alcohol content, Phelps was examined by a "certified Drug Recognition Expert" who concluded that Phelps was "under the influence of cannabis and was unsafe to operate a motor vehicle."

While Phelps was being tested, Hektoen noted, "the defendant requested to take a SnapChat selfie with me to which I happily obliged." That selfie, seen above, shows a beaming Phelps in the foreground, while Hektoen gives the camera a thumbs-up sign.

The officer added that Phelps told him he "captioned the photo using emoji icons showing a police car, next to a passenger car, next to a tow truck."

Phelps posed later for a second photo (seen at left) that was snapped by a jail employee.

Phelps was charged with operating while under the influence, a misdemeanor. Free on bond, he is scheduled for an August 17 preliminary hearing in District Court. (1 page)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesmokinggun.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2F750x970%2Fdocuments%2Fduiselfierept.jpg&hash=32fc7100e0b774eb44bbf2284794df73d2bbe057)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesmokinggun.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fassets%2Fduiselfie.jpg&hash=d36a72019dfa518a6ffdccf2363dd3a67401af33)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 12:32:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 12:28:01 PM
The shouting Bernie Sanders off the stage thing is bizarre, yet given that they had already tried to do it, not surprising.  Also kinda funny.

Oh it is funny no doubt. They are insane. It is more outrageous to them when a commie is not commie enough than if somebody is a non-commie. Radicals going to radical.

But frustrating since, in theory, they should be a productive force in a movement I support.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 12:33:53 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 11, 2015, 12:31:29 PM
If you're actually stoned while driving and white, in Iowa, you're luckier:

Well that is a completely different department in a completely different state with a completely different culture. Spring Texas is not Iowa. Apples should be compared to apples.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on August 11, 2015, 12:45:37 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 11, 2015, 12:17:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 29, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
Do you have anything substantive to say?  I mean, in this particular incident, we have cops falsifying their reports.  In the South Carolina case, we have at least one cop on tape participating in the cover-up.  We also appear to have very few cases of murders by cops brought to light due to the testimony of their collegues rather than due to videos that surface.  Do you have anything to say about that, or are you going to continue with your Pat Lynch schtick?
Speaking anecdotally, there seems to be a fairly significant difference in police culture between Canada and the US that may be contributing to the disconnect. I would have responded similarly to how BB does before I moved here.

Yup. Canadian cops have a generally higher level of public trust among a broader section of the public than in the US (at least, going by what I read here and elsewhere). Not that there haven't been incidents of police misbehaviour here, but they are seen by most people as untypical.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 17, 2015, 11:03:46 PM
Fairfax officer charged with murder for 2013 shooting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/former-fairfax-police-officer-charged-for-murder-of-unarmed-springfield-va-man/2015/08/17/d9b73460-3630-11e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on August 17, 2015, 11:47:52 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 11, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
At first the Tea Party was only about not doing the bailouts

THANK YOU.  I've been jumped on several times for pointing this out.  I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who knows it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:48:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 12:32:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 12:28:01 PM
The shouting Bernie Sanders off the stage thing is bizarre, yet given that they had already tried to do it, not surprising.  Also kinda funny.

Oh it is funny no doubt. They are insane. It is more outrageous to them when a commie is not commie enough than if somebody is a non-commie. Radicals going to radical.

But frustrating since, in theory, they should be a productive force in a movement I support.

To be honest, I'm not that bothered by the black lives movement. Clearly polite methods are ineffective - so perhaps getting uppity will work.

Besides, it isn't like the group is only going after Dems. They came after Bush last week too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 07:38:44 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:48:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2015, 12:32:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 11, 2015, 12:28:01 PM
The shouting Bernie Sanders off the stage thing is bizarre, yet given that they had already tried to do it, not surprising.  Also kinda funny.

Oh it is funny no doubt. They are insane. It is more outrageous to them when a commie is not commie enough than if somebody is a non-commie. Radicals going to radical.

But frustrating since, in theory, they should be a productive force in a movement I support.

To be honest, I'm not that bothered by the black lives movement. Clearly polite methods are ineffective - so perhaps getting uppity will work.

Besides, it isn't like the group is only going after Dems. They came after Bush last week too.

It is not the fact that they are uppity it is the fact they have decided in order to reform the police they need to destroy Capitalism. I want them out being uppity about police reform.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 07:51:18 AM
Ah, I hadn't seen that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 08:35:53 AM
I just like how shitty they get when someone tells them all lives matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 10:28:56 AM
They should though. :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 10:28:56 AM
They should though. :mellow:

Because all lives don't matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 11:45:37 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 10:28:56 AM
They should though. :mellow:

Because all lives don't matter.

No, that would not be why. More because it trivializes/ignores the statement they are making that by-in-large American society has fostered the image that black lives, if they matter, matter significantly less than other lives*. This isn't a problem that can be solved by adhering to color blindness.

*akin to why Black Pride/Black is Beautiful were relevant movements.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 12:03:35 PM
So one has to agree with and accept that underlying claim as fact?  I don't. 

Regardless, it's bad PR for your group if you boo and hiss and scream when someone says something as inocuous as "all lives matter."  Or, heaven forbid, "police lives matter."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 12:03:35 PM
So one has to agree with and accept that underlying claim as fact?  I don't. 

I guess you don't have to - but I'm not sure why you would cavalierly dismiss how people are telling you that they feel. Even if they are wrong and there hasn't been any messaging that their lives matter less, you still need to deal with the impact of how their "inaccurate perception" affects reality.

Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 12:03:35 PM
Regardless, it's bad PR for your group if you boo and hiss and scream when someone says something as inocuous as "all lives matter."  Or, heaven forbid, "police lives matter."

I disagree. In this context such statements, and particularly the latter one, are not innocuous but rather an outright rejection or rug covering of the initial statement about black lives. I can't even imagine how a person could say in response to that "police lives matter" without derision.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
I guess you don't have to - but I'm not sure why you would cavalierly dismiss how people are telling you that they feel. Even if they are wrong and there hasn't been any messaging that their lives matter less, you still need to deal with the impact of how their "inaccurate perception" affects reality.

If it were a setting where you could sit down and calmly discuss things, sure.  But this group apparently doesn't have any plans beyond interrupting an event, not letting anyone else speak, and shouting a three-word chant over & over.  If they've simplified it down to that, a simple three-word response is quite appropriate IMO.

QuoteI disagree.

Okay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
If it were a setting where you could sit down and calmly discuss things, sure.  But this group apparently doesn't have any plans beyond interrupting an event, not letting anyone else speak, and shouting a three-word chant over & over.  If they've simplified it down to that, a simple three-word response is quite appropriate IMO.

And where exactly is this setting where it would be effectual to sit down and calmly "discuss things", as you say? It isn't like it is a new thing that black people have concerns about police that trample over their civil liberties, that kill them - concerns regarding local and federal agencies that tacitly let these issues persist.

No being polite doesn't seem, at least in my lifetime, to have shepherded in much change.  Here in the 21st century, we shouldn't be in a place where the mayor of one of the most important cities in the world needs to caution his half black son about being deferential to the police, just as a matter of basic safety.

And so, you get groups like this getting uppity, causing a ruckus aimed at politicians. Said politicians may not care much about the issue (or even view it as an issue at all) but you know damn sure they dislike putting up with being antagonized.

Though it was disruptive to the population at large, and had me concerned about safety - in particular my own when I found myself caught in the middle of the protests, I was sort of glad when we had the mass protests across the nation last year as the little bit of optimist in me was like good, people are caring about this issue and they are taking it beyond something simply just lived experiences / theory taking place on university campuses and making it something that that the nation at large is forced to confront. Something that the media was going to cover and propagate.  And I think we're starting to see more offending police officers punished that heretofore would not have in the previous climate.

And sure, some people might be turned off by the seeming lack of content behind such a blacklivesmatter message, but then were those people even listening when one spoke politely about police brutality?

Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
Okay.

:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
And where exactly is this setting where it would be effectual to sit down and calmly "discuss things", as you say? It isn't like it is a new thing that black people have concerns about police that trample over their civil liberties, that kill them - concerns regarding local and federal agencies that tacitly let these issues persist.

Obviously you're not going to be able to calmly discuss things.  The angry mob will have none of that. 

QuoteNo being polite doesn't seem, at least in my lifetime, to have shepherded in much change.  Here in the 21st century, we shouldn't be in a place where the mayor of one of the most important cities in the world needs to caution his half black son about being deferential to the police, just as a matter of basic safety.

Don't be polite, then.  You're only going to push people away.  And cautioning your son about being deferential to police, that's kind of good advice across the board regardless of race. 

QuoteAnd so, you get groups like this getting uppity, causing a ruckus aimed at politicians. Said politicians may not care much about the issue (or even view it as an issue at all) but you know damn sure they dislike putting up with being antagonized.

Go ahead and antagonize Bernie Sanders, Jeb and Hillary, by all means.  It's rude and really seems to backfire from a PR standpoint, but have at them.

QuoteThough it was disruptive to the population at large, and had me concerned about safety - in particular my own when I found myself caught in the middle of the protests, I was sort of glad when we had the mass protests across the nation last year as the little bit of optimist in me was like good, people are caring about this issue and they are taking it beyond something simply just lived experiences / theory taking place on university campuses and making it something that that the nation at large is forced to confront. Something that the media was going to cover and propagate.  And I think we're starting to see more offending police officers punished that heretofore would not have in the previous climate.

Agree to disagree.  I don't think the protests did much, particularly when some of them turned violent.  Body cameras seem to be more of a positive difference-maker. 

QuoteAnd sure, some people might be turned off by the seeming lack of content behind such a blacklivesmatter message, but then were those people even listening when one spoke politely about police brutality?

It's all over the damned news.  Every news outlet blasts it 24/7 whenever there's an unarmed black man shot by police.    Even when the shooting is justified (i.e., Ferguson) it's spun as if it were murder.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:17:22 PM
It wasn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
Derspeiss was far more "pro-angry mob" back in 2010.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).

I don't think it misses the point at all - saying "All lives matter" in response to this meme is very much understanding the point and trying to actively undermine it.

Of course all lives matter - the fact that there is a need to point out that "ALL" really should include "Black" is the point that "Black Lives Matter" is trying to make.

Turning that around and saying "All lives matter" is not "missing the point" at all. It is actively trying to refute the point, and attempt to put those uppity blacks back where they belong - which is where they can, have, and would continue to be killed at a alarming rate, where apparently it didn't seem to matter much at all. The status quo is and has been lip service to the idea that blacks are equal, while the reality is that they are not - demanding a return to the lip service strikes me as a way of defending that status quo.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on August 18, 2015, 03:25:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).

I don't think it misses the point at all - saying "All lives matter" in response to this meme is very much understanding the point and trying to actively undermine it.

Of course all lives matter - the fact that there is a need to point out that "ALL" really should include "Black" is the point that "Black Lives Matter" is trying to make.

Turning that around and saying "All lives matter" is not "missing the point" at all. It is actively trying to refute the point, and attempt to put those uppity blacks back where they belong - which is where they can, have, and would continue to be killed at a alarming rate, where apparently it didn't seem to matter much at all. The status quo is and has been lip service to the idea that blacks are equal, while the reality is that they are not - demanding a return to the lip service strikes me as a way of defending that status quo.

This whole debate just infuriates me about the level of political discussion that is acceptable in this social media age.

I mean of course Black Lives Matter.

And of course All Lives Matter.

But maybe, just maybe, it would be more useful to move beyond bumper sticker slogals and hashtags and actually discuss policy changes?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:28:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 18, 2015, 03:25:21 PM
But maybe, just maybe, it would be more useful to move beyond bumper sticker slogals and hashtags and actually discuss policy changes?

And I ask yet again, where is this lovely polite venue where this can be put forward serenely and then acted upon?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:29:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 18, 2015, 03:25:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).

I don't think it misses the point at all - saying "All lives matter" in response to this meme is very much understanding the point and trying to actively undermine it.

Of course all lives matter - the fact that there is a need to point out that "ALL" really should include "Black" is the point that "Black Lives Matter" is trying to make.

Turning that around and saying "All lives matter" is not "missing the point" at all. It is actively trying to refute the point, and attempt to put those uppity blacks back where they belong - which is where they can, have, and would continue to be killed at a alarming rate, where apparently it didn't seem to matter much at all. The status quo is and has been lip service to the idea that blacks are equal, while the reality is that they are not - demanding a return to the lip service strikes me as a way of defending that status quo.

This whole debate just infuriates me about the level of political discussion that is acceptable in this social media age.

I mean of course Black Lives Matter.

And of course All Lives Matter.

But maybe, just maybe, it would be more useful to move beyond bumper sticker slogals and hashtags and actually discuss policy changes?

I don't disagree at all Beebs - but I've moved quite a ways on this (I am totally becoming a bleeding heart liberal, FFS) and not pretty much align with garbon.

I think riots and protests and slogans that often have little bearing on reality are generally very distasteful and offend my sense and demand for rationality.

But fuck - being reasonable and rational simply has not worked. Has it ever worked to address these kinds of inequities?

It seems like you have to be rather over the top fucked up to get anything real changed.

Which is why (sort of but not really related note) I am very worried about the long term "fix" for economic wealth accumulation disparity. I don't think it is going to get fixed by some rational, reasoned, sane discussion about how to adjust the system, since the system seems to be designed to not allow that to happen. So I suspect that at some point in the future, it will be changed in a more non-rational, non-sane manner. And that has potential to be very, very bad for everyone.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).

I don't think it misses the point at all - saying "All lives matter" in response to this meme is very much understanding the point and trying to actively undermine it.

Of course all lives matter - the fact that there is a need to point out that "ALL" really should include "Black" is the point that "Black Lives Matter" is trying to make.

Turning that around and saying "All lives matter" is not "missing the point" at all. It is actively trying to refute the point, and attempt to put those uppity blacks back where they belong - which is where they can, have, and would continue to be killed at a alarming rate, where apparently it didn't seem to matter much at all. The status quo is and has been lip service to the idea that blacks are equal, while the reality is that they are not - demanding a return to the lip service strikes me as a way of defending that status quo.

Disagree.  Lots of different groups of people face a heavier hand from the police, not only blacks Are they bring up shooting at Indian reservations or against Hispanics?  Not really, no.  Second Black lives matter protesters have protested in many cases where a black suspect opened fire on a white officer and then lost the gun fight.  The implication is clear, that there are people in this movement who don't want police officers to act against certain ethnic groups under any circumstance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:35:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).

I don't think it misses the point at all - saying "All lives matter" in response to this meme is very much understanding the point and trying to actively undermine it.

Of course all lives matter - the fact that there is a need to point out that "ALL" really should include "Black" is the point that "Black Lives Matter" is trying to make.

Turning that around and saying "All lives matter" is not "missing the point" at all. It is actively trying to refute the point, and attempt to put those uppity blacks back where they belong - which is where they can, have, and would continue to be killed at a alarming rate, where apparently it didn't seem to matter much at all. The status quo is and has been lip service to the idea that blacks are equal, while the reality is that they are not - demanding a return to the lip service strikes me as a way of defending that status quo.

Disagree.  Lots of different groups of people face a heavier hand from the police, not only blacks Are they bring up shooting at Indian reservations or against Hispanics?  Not really, no.  Second Black lives matter protesters have protested in many cases where a black suspect opened fire on a white officer and then lost the gun fight.  The implication is clear, that there are people in this movement who don't want police officers to act against certain ethnic groups under any circumstance.

Well there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. No real issue to worry about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:39:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:35:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2015, 12:03:56 PM
Gotta agree with garbo...while it is correct that all lives matter, bringing up that point in that context misses the point (and is slightly dick-ish).

I don't think it misses the point at all - saying "All lives matter" in response to this meme is very much understanding the point and trying to actively undermine it.

Of course all lives matter - the fact that there is a need to point out that "ALL" really should include "Black" is the point that "Black Lives Matter" is trying to make.

Turning that around and saying "All lives matter" is not "missing the point" at all. It is actively trying to refute the point, and attempt to put those uppity blacks back where they belong - which is where they can, have, and would continue to be killed at a alarming rate, where apparently it didn't seem to matter much at all. The status quo is and has been lip service to the idea that blacks are equal, while the reality is that they are not - demanding a return to the lip service strikes me as a way of defending that status quo.

Disagree.  Lots of different groups of people face a heavier hand from the police, not only blacks Are they bring up shooting at Indian reservations or against Hispanics?  Not really, no.  Second Black lives matter protesters have protested in many cases where a black suspect opened fire on a white officer and then lost the gun fight.  The implication is clear, that there are people in this movement who don't want police officers to act against certain ethnic groups under any circumstance.

Well there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. No real issue to worry about.

Not sure how you came to understand that from my post.  Perhaps you'd like to walk me through that logic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:45:56 PM
You said a bunch of irrelevant presumably thought to be disparaging things.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 03:46:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
Derspeiss was far more "pro-angry mob" back in 2010.

Was I?


(this is your cue to dig through all my 2010 posts-- go!!)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:52:51 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 03:46:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
Derspeiss was far more "pro-angry mob" back in 2010.

Was I?


(this is your cue to dig through all my 2010 posts-- go!!)

Tea Party.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 03:56:21 PM
You disappoint me, Brad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:58:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:45:56 PM
You said a bunch of irrelevant presumably thought to be disparaging things.

You will have to do better then that.  Why are Hispanics shot by police unjustly "irrelevant"?  When a black man opens fire on a police officer why is "Black Lives Matter", relevant?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 03:56:21 PM
You disappoint me, Brad.

I disappoint you everyday.  However, back during the Tea Party rise you were just fine with people jumping up on stage screaming at politicians.  Not so much now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:58:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:45:56 PM
You said a bunch of irrelevant presumably thought to be disparaging things.

You will have to do better then that.  Why are Hispanics shot by police unjustly "irrelevant"?  When a black man opens fire on a police officer why is "Black Lives Matter", relevant?

How about you spend some time to work that out for yourself and report back?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:58:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 03:45:56 PM
You said a bunch of irrelevant presumably thought to be disparaging things.

You will have to do better then that.  Why are Hispanics shot by police unjustly "irrelevant"?  When a black man opens fire on a police officer why is "Black Lives Matter", relevant?

How about you spend some time to work that out for yourself and report back?

No matter how much I work I can't know what you think.  You have to tell me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 04:30:59 PM
You know, it's interesting to take a look at the beginning of this thread and see all the things that were posted and later found not to be true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 06:09:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 03:56:21 PM
You disappoint me, Brad.

I disappoint you everyday.  However, back during the Tea Party rise you were just fine with people jumping up on stage screaming at politicians.  Not so much now.

I was?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 06:48:06 PM
Yes.  You admired the "political theater" of the whole thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 09:51:17 PM
Jumping on stage and screaming at politicians, though?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 19, 2015, 01:46:17 AM
I think the problem with "Black Lives Matter" is that it turns into a race issue something that really shouldn't be. Police reform in much of the US is badly needed however.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 02:00:47 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 19, 2015, 01:46:17 AM
I think the problem with "Black Lives Matter" is that it turns into a race issue something that really shouldn't be. Police reform in much of the US is badly needed however.
:huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jaron on August 19, 2015, 02:05:04 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 19, 2015, 01:46:17 AM
I think the problem with "Black Lives Matter" is that it turns into a race issue something that really shouldn't be. Police reform in much of the US is badly needed however.

:lmfao: What?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 19, 2015, 02:08:57 AM
According to a statistic released this week, Austrian police have fired a total of 54 shots in all of 2014. In 1995 it was five times as many. Three suspects were wounded, one killed last year. In the last 20 years, Austrian police have killed on average 2.3 people per year.

Austria has a population of ca. 8.5 million vs ca. 320 million in the US. So the equivalent of Austria's numbers in the US would be an average 86 dead suspects shot by police p.a.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 02:46:48 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 09:51:17 PM
Jumping on stage and screaming at politicians, though?

There was a whole bunch of townhalls during the Obamacare fight.  Lots of screaming.  I guess it was understandable considering the big population reduction thing it was going to do by 2014.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 19, 2015, 02:50:14 AM
We were promised death panels.  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 06:46:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 02:46:48 AM
There was a whole bunch of townhalls during the Obamacare fight.  Lots of screaming.  I guess it was understandable considering the big population reduction thing it was going to do by 2014.

Okay.  Continue to be vague and stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2015, 06:48:34 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 19, 2015, 01:46:17 AM
I think the problem with "Black Lives Matter" is that it turns into a race issue something that really shouldn't be. Police reform in much of the US is badly needed however.

What is the "it" that black lives matter suddenly makes a race issue? :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 19, 2015, 07:02:09 AM
Police violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 07:09:45 AM
Grabon doesn't care about white people who are victims of police violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:14:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 07:09:45 AM
Grabon doesn't care about white people who are victims of police violence.

So clearly that is a false statement.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:14:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 07:09:45 AM
Grabon doesn't care about white people who are victims of police violence.

So clearly that is a false statement.

Not sure about that but you are clearly selective in your outrage. For example, your profile picture features an ISIS murderess. Even if ironic, this seems bad taste - more than if, say, Derspiess had Zimmermann's pic in his profile, for example.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 19, 2015, 07:28:17 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 06:48:34 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 19, 2015, 01:46:17 AM
I think the problem with "Black Lives Matter" is that it turns into a race issue something that really shouldn't be. Police reform in much of the US is badly needed however.

What is the "it" that black lives matter suddenly makes a race issue? :huh:

I think too many people subconsciously put "only" in front of BLM because the BLM leadership, for obvious reasons, doesn't spend much time talking about police shootings outside their community.  That's like arguing that the Southern Poverty Law Center thinks that justice should be confined to the poor of the South.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:14:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 07:09:45 AM
Grabon doesn't care about white people who are victims of police violence.

So clearly that is a false statement.

Not sure about that but you are clearly selective in your outrage. For example, your profile picture features an ISIS murderess. Even if ironic, this seems bad taste - more than if, say, Derspiess had Zimmermann's pic in his profile, for example.

Is this a Polish joke?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 09:03:29 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 07:51:18 AM
Ah, I hadn't seen that.

Well here is their list of demands:

QuoteWe demand an end to all forms of discrimination and the full recognition of our human rights.
We demand an immediate end to police brutality and the murder of Black  people and all oppressed people.
We demand full, living wage employment for our people.
We demand decent housing fit for the shelter of human beings and an end to gentrification.
We demand an end to the school to prison pipeline & quality education for all.
We demand freedom from mass incarceration and an end to the prison industrial complex.
We demand a racial justice agenda from the White House that is inclusive of our shared fate as Black men, women, trans and gender-nonconforming people. Not My Brother's Keeper, but Our Children's Keeper.
We demand access to affordable healthy food for our neighborhoods.
We demand an aggressive attack against all laws, policies, and entities that disenfranchise any community from expressing themselves at the ballot.
We demand a public education system that teaches the rich history of Black people and celebrates the contributions we have made to this country and the world.
We demand the release of all U.S. political prisoners.
We demand an end to the military industrial complex that incentivizes private corporations to profit off of the death and destruction of Black and Brown communities across the globe.

Militancy combined with vagueness. Always a winning combination.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 10:12:08 AM
They forgot to demand to keep hope alive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 10:14:09 AM
It is kind of interesting to see how serious issues are trivially dismissed by those who want to protect the status quo by simply demanding some level of perfect delivery of demands, absent which one can safely ignore the crisis involved.

This is an old playbook.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Maybe they could whittle their demands down to some better defined, achievable goals and then we could work from there.  They're not exactly doing themselves any favors.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:30:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 10:14:09 AM
It is kind of interesting to see how serious issues are trivially dismissed by those who want to protect the status quo by simply demanding some level of perfect delivery of demands, absent which one can safely ignore the crisis involved.

This is an old playbook.

I am sure what I say here on Languish will not dramatically impact whether or not the status quo is preserved but I guess I should be flattered. However if you have read anything I have to say on this topic you would know I am making no such demand to anybody. I am simply worried this movement has been hijacked by left wing extremists. Sadly extremists hijacking important movements is pretty old playbook.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 12:05:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Maybe they could whittle their demands down to some better defined, achievable goals and then we could work from there.  They're not exactly doing themselves any favors.

I am sure there is no set of "defined, achievable goals" beyond "lets leave everything as it is" that is going to result in them getting any tangible, meaningful support from those who object to their current tactics - said tactics being the direct result of decades of refusal to address those "defined, reasonable goals" absent said tactics.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 12:06:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:30:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 10:14:09 AM
It is kind of interesting to see how serious issues are trivially dismissed by those who want to protect the status quo by simply demanding some level of perfect delivery of demands, absent which one can safely ignore the crisis involved.

This is an old playbook.

I am sure what I say here on Languish will not dramatically impact whether or not the status quo is preserved but I guess I should be flattered. However if you have read anything I have to say on this topic you would know I am making no such demand to anybody. I am simply worried this movement has been hijacked by left wing extremists. Sadly extremists hijacking important movements is pretty old playbook.

It certainly is old playbook - but exaggerating the "extremists" in order to simply dismiss the entire thing out of hand is as well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 12:06:15 PM
It certainly is old playbook - but exaggerating the "extremists" in order to simply dismiss the entire thing out of hand is as well.

Why would I want to dismiss something I passionately support out of hand? That would be an odd playbook indeed.

I am just concerned not attempting to dismiss anybody.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 12:31:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 12:05:38 PM
I am sure there is no set of "defined, achievable goals" beyond "lets leave everything as it is" that is going to result in them getting any tangible, meaningful support from those who object to their current tactics - said tactics being the direct result of decades of refusal to address those "defined, reasonable goals" absent said tactics.

Okay, but only if you're sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 12:59:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2015, 12:05:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Maybe they could whittle their demands down to some better defined, achievable goals and then we could work from there.  They're not exactly doing themselves any favors.

I am sure there is no set of "defined, achievable goals" beyond "lets leave everything as it is" that is going to result in them getting any tangible, meaningful support from those who object to their current tactics - said tactics being the direct result of decades of refusal to address those "defined, reasonable goals" absent said tactics.

Here I am agreeing with Derspeiss.  This has become Occupy Wall Street 2.0.  We have people who protest so that they can protest.  The goals are not coherent and the methods to achieve these goals have no relationship with accomplishing whatever goals they have.

I'm going to use Ferguson as an example of piss poor organizing and disinterest in actually accomplishing anything meaningful.  The issues in Ferguson stemmed from the police department.  People protesting claimed that it was using brutal tactics, was openly racist, and did not reflect the community.  Okay, those may be valid concerns, and they can be addressed locally.  It does not require actions by the state or Federal government.  There really is little need to attract national or international attention.  The people in the town have the power over their police department.   To address the problems what protesters need to have done was pick candidates for local office, register people to vote, and get their asses to the polling places on election day.  With their newly elected city government they can have whatever police department they want.  They can disband the police department if they feel they need to.  This is a solid goal which can be accomplished by clear, simple actions.  Sadly this was not what the protesters were interested in.  Screaming and spitting on the police for the benefit of your Youtube followers, blocking the highway, kicking cars driving on West Florissant, looting stores and lighting fires does not accomplish any goals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 01:01:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:14:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 07:09:45 AM
Grabon doesn't care about white people who are victims of police violence.

So clearly that is a false statement.

Not sure about that but you are clearly selective in your outrage. For example, your profile picture features an ISIS murderess. Even if ironic, this seems bad taste - more than if, say, Derspiess had Zimmermann's pic in his profile, for example.

What in the Hell are you talking about?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on August 19, 2015, 01:10:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:20:50 AM
Not sure about that but you are clearly selective in your outrage. For example, your profile picture features an ISIS murderess. Even if ironic, this seems bad taste - more than if, say, Derspiess had Zimmermann's pic in his profile, for example.

:lmfao:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on August 19, 2015, 02:01:45 PM
So someone named Shaun King, who does seem somehow affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement, has apparently been outed as, you guessed it, a white man pretending to be black.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/did-black-lives-matter-organiser-shaun-king-mislead-oprah-winfrey-by-pretending-to-be-biracial/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2015, 02:10:17 PM
White people, tearing black folk down in a million different ways. :weep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 02:46:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 02:10:17 PM
White people, tearing black folk down in a million different ways. :weep:

:console:

Back to the BLM stuff: Anyway don't get me wrong if BLM leads some big anti-police violence march here I would probably join them but damn. I mean dismantling the military-industrial complex seems just a little out of the scope of the cause here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 19, 2015, 03:49:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 02:46:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 02:10:17 PM
White people, tearing black folk down in a million different ways. :weep:

:console:

Back to the BLM stuff: Anyway don't get me wrong if BLM leads some big anti-police violence march here I would probably join them but damn. I mean dismantling the military-industrial complex seems just a little out of the scope of the cause here.

So long as all those tens of thousands of political prisoners get released, I could care less about dismantling the military-industrial complex and ending gentrification.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2015, 04:03:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 19, 2015, 01:10:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:20:50 AM
Not sure about that but you are clearly selective in your outrage. For example, your profile picture features an ISIS murderess. Even if ironic, this seems bad taste - more than if, say, Derspiess had Zimmermann's pic in his profile, for example.

:lmfao:

Maybe he had a bad experience with a bean pie?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 04:04:19 PM
Can someone explain Marti's joke to me?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 19, 2015, 04:32:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 04:04:19 PM
Can someone explain Marti's joke to me?  :huh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHMTgN9i4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHMTgN9i4o)

Edit:  On second thought, I don't think he was aware that it was a joke.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:01:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2015, 02:01:45 PM
So someone named Shaun King, who does seem somehow affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement, has apparently been outed as, you guessed it, a white man pretending to be black.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/did-black-lives-matter-organiser-shaun-king-mislead-oprah-winfrey-by-pretending-to-be-biracial/

As a side note....Breitbart? :x
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 19, 2015, 07:03:43 PM
Raz seems to think highly of the site.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 07:09:52 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 19, 2015, 04:32:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 04:04:19 PM
Can someone explain Marti's joke to me?  :huh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHMTgN9i4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHMTgN9i4o)

Edit:  On second thought, I don't think he was aware that it was a joke.
:lol: Thanks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2015, 07:16:38 PM
Cop accidently shoots himself, blames the black driver he pulled over. Thankfully the jury found the driver innocent.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/08/cop_shot_himself_and_blamed_a_black_driver_police_officer_kelly_stewart.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 19, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2015, 07:16:38 PM
Thankfully the jury found the driver innocent.
Actually, Tim, the jury appears to found him guilty of stealing the officer's gun by force or through the threat of force. I wonder if the driver - convicted of a serious felony and heading to prison for at least a decade - would agree that he was found innocent. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2015, 08:31:01 PM
Quote from: Kleves on August 19, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2015, 07:16:38 PM
Thankfully the jury found the driver innocent.
Actually, Tim, the jury appears to found him guilty of stealing the officer's gun by force or through the threat of force. I wonder if the driver - convicted of a serious felony and heading to prison for at least a decade - would agree that he was found innocent.
He was found innocent of shooting the police officer, which is what I was refrencing. The rest is immaterial.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 19, 2015, 08:34:39 PM
Quote from: Kleves on August 19, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2015, 07:16:38 PM
Thankfully the jury found the driver innocent.
Actually, Tim, the jury appears to found him guilty of stealing the officer's gun by force or through the threat of force. I wonder if the driver - convicted of a serious felony and heading to prison for at least a decade - would agree that he was found innocent.

I think that it is obvious that there is far more to this story than the superficial treatment by Slate implies.  Like the fact that Slate ignores the fact that Riley was, in fact, an ex-felon, and the fact that it only parenthetically mentions that Riley was found guilty of theft.  I rather suspect that the "unexpectedly severe 10 years in prison" was not unexpected at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 08:37:22 PM
Yeah, I imagine that courts don't look to kindly on people that steal guns from cops.  Actually, that whole aspect sounds like something worth exploring further, rather than serving as an aside.  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on August 19, 2015, 11:09:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:01:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2015, 02:01:45 PM
So someone named Shaun King, who does seem somehow affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement, has apparently been outed as, you guessed it, a white man pretending to be black.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/did-black-lives-matter-organiser-shaun-king-mislead-oprah-winfrey-by-pretending-to-be-biracial/

As a side note....Breitbart? :x

It was linked at by lots of other places, but yes, breitbart was the source of the story. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 11:32:12 PM
They do have a nasty reputation for dishonesty.  They were countering the whole "Black lives matter" by focusing on Black on White crime.  Well until some crazy racist shot up a church.  I wonder if they went back to it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 08:40:52 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 11:32:12 PM
They were countering the whole "Black lives matter" by focusing on Black on White crime.

:bleeding: x infinity
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 08:49:05 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 19, 2015, 07:01:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 19, 2015, 02:01:45 PM
So someone named Shaun King, who does seem somehow affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement, has apparently been outed as, you guessed it, a white man pretending to be black.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/did-black-lives-matter-organiser-shaun-king-mislead-oprah-winfrey-by-pretending-to-be-biracial/

As a side note....Breitbart? :x

Don Lemon took it seriously :contract:

edit: linky-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCdBikC2w74
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:25:05 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
Black lives matter protesters have protested in many cases where a black suspect opened fire on a white officer and then lost the gun fight.  The implication is clear, that there are people in this movement who don't want police officers to act against certain ethnic groups under any circumstance.

Recent example: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2015/08/19/st-louis-police-officers-shoot-kill-suspect/

QuoteSt. Louis Police Officers Shoot, Kill Suspect
August 19, 2015 1:58 PM

UPDATED 9:55 PM 8/19/2015
ST. LOUIS (AP) — St. Louis police say a black 18-year-old armed with a gun was shot and killed by two officers who were serving a search warrant at a home.

St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson says two suspects fled from the home around noon Wednesday on the city's north side before the 18-year-old turned and pointed a handgun at the officers, who shot him.

Dotson says the wounded suspect died at the scene. In a statement Wednesday night, police identified him as Mansur Ball-Bey of St. Louis. Authorities are searching for the second suspect. The statement said he is believed to be in his mid- to late teens.

Both officers, who are white, were unharmed, according to a police report.  Dotson said four guns and crack cocaine were recovered at the scene.  A man and woman who were inside the home were arrested.
[...]
The shooting that left a black suspect dead drew protests, with many of the roughly 150 people who gathered at the scene hurling obscene gestures and expletives at investigators and questioning the police use of deadly force. Some chanted "Black Lives Matter," a mantra used a year ago after the police shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown in nearby Ferguson.

"Another youth down by the hands of police," Dex Dockett, 42, who lives nearby, told a reporter. "What could have been done different to de-escalate rather than escalate? They (police) come in with an us-against-them mentality. You've got to have the right kind of cops to engage in these types of neighborhoods."
Another neighborhood resident, Fred Price, skeptical about Dotson's account that the suspect pointed a gun at officers before being mortally wounded.

"They provoked the situation," Price, 33, said. "Situations like this make us want to keep the police out of the neighborhood. They're shooting first, then asking questions."

Some of those who gathered had spent the morning in downtown St. Louis, marching to mark the anniversary of the fatal police shooting of Kajieme Powell. He was fatally shot by two St. Louis officers after police said he came at them with a knife. Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce is still reviewing the case to determine whether lethal force was justified.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
The problem appears to be that respect for the integrity of the police is so low in this community that the police account of such situations is automatically not believed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 09:43:23 AM
This is an amazing article on PBS of all things.

Quotehttp://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/im-young-black-female-20-something-may-vote-presidential-election/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=newshour

QuoteOn paper, I'm a progressive candidate's ideal. I'm a 23-year-old, black, queer, college-educated woman who is drowning in more than $160,000 of undergraduate student loan debt. I fervently believe in unlimited access to reproductive healthcare, despise corporate welfare, and consider climate change to be the most severe public health issue of our time.

In the American political landscape, my ideology is best packaged as leftist, and my vote is seemingly guaranteed.

But I'm also an organizer with Black Lives Matter NYC, and such an affiliation is causing more upset within the electoral establishment than excitement, enthusiasm, or certainty.

I do not describe myself as a liberal or progressive — rather, I identify as a radical within the spirit of Angela Davis, Assata Shakur, Ella Baker, and Ida B. Wells. Within their black liberatory framework, their radicalism centered on examining the root causes of racism and its resulting socioeconomic ills, while denouncing patriarchy as a divisive tool of white supremacist function.

As a radical, I view the entire system of white supremacy to be both parasitic and adaptive; it's a robust machine that encroaches upon public consciousness and institutions with such savviness that its depravity is deemed the credible status quo. White supremacy is a claustrophobic daily reality that lives within complicated legislation, multilayered bureaucracy, structural oppression and individual behavior.

And no presidential contender will say this, let alone enact policies, laws, or other widespread, comprehensive measures to structurally dismantle the deadly system under which we live.

The presidential slate is underwhelming at best, and terrifying at worst. The Democrat Party candidates are problematic.

Former Governor Martin O'Malley oversaw rampant militarization of Maryland's police forces. His racial justice platform calls for body cameras, a stance I am ardently opposed to as these devices — when in the hands of the police — amount to government surveillance, a lack of transparency or accountability, and obscene profit for companies at the taxpayer's expense. This added to his current non-factor status leads to my disinterest in his candidacy.

Former Senator and First Lady Hillary Clinton represents dynastic politics, and her close ties to the neoliberal financial sector is less than commendable. She is complicit in fueling the war on drugs. In a series of unjust and anti-black schemes, she helped bolster the prison industrial complex, further corrupted the criminal justice system, and intensified cyclical poverty.

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) the breakout star of the left, is most aligned with my political value system, but his recent fumbles with Black Lives Matter have caused me great pause. Senator Sanders seems ambiguous in his commitment to black lives, and his hesitancy in making racial justice the centerpiece of his campaign is a strategic error that may account for an electoral loss. His colorblind appeal to "economic reform" is significant, but police do not ask for our net worth when they shoot us dead.

Another stumbling block are his supporters, who are embedded in a white savior ethos that discounts black thought leadership as unintelligent and unworthy. I question his candidacy if these are the people he attracts.

The crowded Republican field isn't worth consideration. Given their racist, homophobic, misogynistic platforms, they hate everything about me — from my body to my bank account, because God told them so.

So as I consider my limited options, the probability of voting grows ever more dim. The decision to not vote is a heavy one; given the historical weight of black liberation in pursuit of the right to vote, I feel a racial obligation in exercising the precious freedom my ancestors fought valiantly to attain.

But I also know that voting alone does not bring about overarching black freedom. Voting does not ensure our safety, nor does it provide an immediate conduit for black social well being.

My disillusionment comes with great irony; the nation's first black president was elected twice because marginalized groups voted in record numbers. Ever since, the racist opposition has (always) been increasingly bloodthirsty in its attempt to disenfranchise black voters; using structural tactics such as gerrymandering and voter identification laws to decrease black voter turnout.

In 2013, the Supreme Court eviscerated the Voting Rights Act of 1965, ruling unconstitutional a key section that required states with established histories of anti-black voter disenfranchisement to receive federal approval before changing electoral procedures.

Those with felonious histories of incarceration are denied the right to vote in 48 states. It is no coincidence that most of these individuals are black.

The racist opposition is working hard to stop me from participating in the political system through voting. I do not want to give them the satisfaction of silencing my voice in that way. But, to vote means to uphold a system that is rotten at its core. To vote means to reinforce a white supremacist structure that actively, strategically and relentlessly exploits and exterminates black lives both domestically and globally.

Voting for an anti-black system will not save my black life. Ironically, voting just might jeopardize it.

So yeah she is the stereotypical radical nutcase who demands the whole system be smashed as being irredeemably evil to the core.

This is just baffling:

QuoteHis racial justice platform calls for body cameras, a stance I am ardently opposed to as these devices — when in the hands of the police — amount to government surveillance, a lack of transparency or accountability, and obscene profit for companies at the taxpayer's expense.

Government surveillance? Because the Police looking at you is not government surveillance? Without body cameras how are we supposed to hold the police accountable? Besides if you are in fear of cops murdering you wouldn't you want the government to be watching? Besides dismantling all of society what is her plan on police reform?

Are we really going to see BLM fighting AGAINST police body cameras?

How did this get on PBS?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
The problem appears to be that respect for the integrity of the police is so low in this community that the police account of such situations is automatically not believed.

Yep. This is what happens Spicey when police brutality towards blacks becomes a national punchline for decades and nobody does anything about it. Not so funny now. I warned everybody what a damaging impact the militarization of the cops was for the cops doing their jobs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:45:40 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
The problem appears to be that respect for the integrity of the police is so low in this community that the police account of such situations is automatically not believed.

That, plus the level of outrage must be maintained despite facts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 20, 2015, 09:52:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 09:43:23 AM
Government surveillance? Because the Police looking at you is not government surveillance? Without body cameras how are we supposed to hold the police accountable? Besides if you are in fear of cops murdering you wouldn't you want the government to be watching? Besides dismantling all of society what is her plan on police reform?

Are we really going to see BLM fighting AGAINST police body cameras?

How did this get on PBS?

Well I do think there is a bit of a difference from having a cop look in one's direction and a body cam that will record you.  I think body cams are a step in the right direction for the situation that we find ourselves in me - but in general I'm not a big fan of recording surveillance of my person, much like I'm not a fan of England's overuse of CCTV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 20, 2015, 09:53:37 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:45:40 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
The problem appears to be that respect for the integrity of the police is so low in this community that the police account of such situations is automatically not believed.

That, plus the level of outrage must be maintained despite facts.

Yes because the natural state of black people is to be angry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2015, 09:53:37 AM
Yes because the natural state of black people is to be angry.

Never said that.  It's just that anger is a great motivator and gives the feeling (or possibly illusion) of empowerment, inspiration, and all sorts of other things.  Hard-core members of anger-based movements will do whatever they can to keep other followers' anger at a certain level just to keep the cause moving along.  Even if that involves ignoring facts or even fabricating stories altogether.  This applies to many other things beyond BLM. 

And as much as it pains me to please Raz, the Tea Party movement isn't an entirely bad analogy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
The problem appears to be that respect for the integrity of the police is so low in this community that the police account of such situations is automatically not believed.

Yep. This is what happens Spicey when police brutality towards blacks becomes a national punchline for decades and nobody does anything about it. Not so funny now. I warned everybody what a damaging impact the militarization of the cops was for the cops doing their jobs.

The basic problem I assume is that actions that would tend to increase community respect for the police are slow and incremental, and largely go unreported - basically, actions that imbed the police within the community itself - while police actions that lose community respect are very publicly visible.

In Canada, at least where I live, community respect for the police is still very much present, including in minority communities - there still exists the notion that while there may be bad apples the police are at base the 'good guys' and if you are in trouble, they are there to help you out - and not that they are the source of the trouble. It is frightening to see how that sense can be lost - almosty difficult to comprehend. It is sort of as if the fire department got a reputation for going around setting fires, just to increase their budget or something. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 10:29:54 AM
Since you mentioned the fire department, it appears as though those guys as well as EMTs also suffer taint from the negative police reputation in certain vibrant communities.  A firefighter ended up with a bullet-hole in his helmet when he was trying to put out a fire in Cincy a couple weeks ago.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 10:46:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2015, 09:52:54 AM
Well I do think there is a bit of a difference from having a cop look in one's direction and a body cam that will record you.  I think body cams are a step in the right direction for the situation that we find ourselves in me - but in general I'm not a big fan of recording surveillance of my person, much like I'm not a fan of England's overuse of CCTV.

I am not either. But if we are going to have government surveillance than it could not possibly be more transparent than connected to uniformed and easily identifiable government officials? Besides everybody kind of knows to get your shit together when the cops show up.

And further what is her alternative? I presume, perhaps misguidedly, that if she is being quoted on the NewsHour she is a person of some influence. The camera thing was so outrageous it was used to demonize a candidate to justify why they were problematic. Not a thoughtful comment on the possible downsides of using cameras.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 20, 2015, 10:49:17 AM
There is a valid concern about bodycams.  There must be safeguards in place to make sure it's a two-way street.  You can't have them function properly when it shows the officer in good light, and malfunction when some shit goes down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2015, 10:49:17 AM
There is a valid concern about bodycams.  There must be safeguards in place to make sure it's a two-way street.  You can't have them function properly when it shows the officer in good light, and malfunction when some shit goes down.

Well naturally that would defeat the whole point. But I never said there were not any valid concerns. But this person was suggesting they are absolutely evil because they are government spying and somebody would have to make them. Aren't there a few items on the other side of the ledger?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2015, 10:46:37 AM
I am not either. But if we are going to have government surveillance than it could not possibly be more transparent than connected to uniformed and easily identifiable government officials? Besides everybody kind of knows to get your shit together when the cops show up.

And further what is her alternative? I presume, perhaps misguidedly, that if she is being quoted on the NewsHour she is a person of some influence. The camera thing was so outrageous it was used to demonize a candidate to justify why they were problematic. Not a thoughtful comment on the possible downsides of using cameras.

It's an op-ed piece, not a news story.  I agree that many people don't thought through all of their ideas before expressing them, and she's one of them.  However much I might disagree with her positions, though, I do applaud her for at least being able to explain them.  I've seen an awful lot of arguments that aren't even well-enough thought out that the authors can give even bad reasons why they think that way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 20, 2015, 01:01:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2015, 09:53:37 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:45:40 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 20, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
The problem appears to be that respect for the integrity of the police is so low in this community that the police account of such situations is automatically not believed.

That, plus the level of outrage must be maintained despite facts.

Yes because the natural state of black people is to be angry.

How far does the Black Lives Matter movement go without outrage?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 21, 2015, 01:08:57 AM
So someone drove by the local Boys and Girls club in Rochester and killed 3 people, and injured 4 as a crowd was coming out following a basketball game.

The mayor was droning about this when a rather interesting interruption occurred...

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/videos/news/2015/08/20/32047583/

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 21, 2015, 07:19:34 AM
That dude was obviously an agent of The Man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 24, 2015, 05:59:33 PM
Sounds like Ferguson and Missouri are enacting some much needed reforms.

http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/muni-court-reform-law-takes-effect-friday-many-warrants-fines/article_a790197b-b58b-548a-9616-934a36649358.html?mobile_touch=true

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on August 26, 2015, 08:27:23 AM
Holy shit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wbdj-shooting-on-air_55ddaa54e4b0a40aa3acca3c?aj9ssjor
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on August 26, 2015, 08:30:13 AM
Disgruntled employee, maybe?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 08:35:27 AM
Wrong thread unless a cop shot him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on August 26, 2015, 08:35:59 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 08:35:27 AM
Wrong thread unless a cop shot him.

Is there a more general American shooting gallery thread?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 08:37:05 AM
Probly
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2015, 08:37:36 AM
Wow so senseless. I am not even sure what to say.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 26, 2015, 08:39:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2015, 08:37:36 AM
Wow so senseless. I am not even sure what to say.
At least you weren't the anchor they cut away to.  Imagine how she felt when she didn't know what to say, but had to say something on live TV. :cry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on August 26, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 08:35:27 AM
Wrong thread unless a cop shot him.

Did a cop commit the drive-by shooting in Rochester, too?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 26, 2015, 09:21:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 26, 2015, 08:30:13 AM
Disgruntled employee, maybe?
They usually shoot up the office. I would guess that there's some kind of DV connection.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 26, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
Quote from: dps on August 26, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 08:35:27 AM
Wrong thread unless a cop shot him.

Did a cop commit the drive-by shooting in Rochester, too?

No - I posted that here because I thought the response by the guy interrupting the mayor was relevant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on August 26, 2015, 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 26, 2015, 09:21:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 26, 2015, 08:30:13 AM
Disgruntled employee, maybe?
They usually shoot up the office. I would guess that there's some kind of DV connection.

Former employee it seems:

Quote"We believe it was a disgruntled employee who fired at the TV crew," Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) said Wednesday morning in an online Q&A session.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on August 26, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
Shooter filmed the whole thing, then posted it on social media.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 26, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
That is so incredibly fucked up. Human being suck.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 26, 2015, 12:01:02 PM
Some human beings do.  And thanks to guns, they can be far more effective at sucking.  Why flip out with a meltdown when you can flip out with a mass shooting?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 26, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 26, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
Shooter filmed the whole thing, then posted it on social media.
Ugh, what a twisted, evil piece of shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on August 26, 2015, 12:18:09 PM
Wow.

And I don't approve of the BBC showing what amounts to 'death porn';did we really need to see any of the tv item or the shooters video up to and including the sound of the first shot? 

I'd have preferred to seen it treated like an islamic state atrocity, where just one photo/frame is show during the tv coverage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 26, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 26, 2015, 12:18:09 PM
And I don't approve of the BBC showing what amounts to 'death porn';did we really need to see any of the tv item or the shooters video up to and including the sound of the first shot? 
Kind of ironic, isn't it? :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on August 26, 2015, 01:28:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 26, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
Quote from: dps on August 26, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 08:35:27 AM
Wrong thread unless a cop shot him.

Did a cop commit the drive-by shooting in Rochester, too?

No - I posted that here because I thought the response by the guy interrupting the mayor was relevant.

I know;  I was just ribbing derspiess a bit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 01:34:55 PM
I'm not responsible for anything Berkut posts.  Hell, he isn't too responsible himself.













:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 26, 2015, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 26, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
Shooter filmed the whole thing, then posted it on social media.
Cops caught up with him and he committed suicide.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2015, 01:46:44 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 26, 2015, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 26, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
Shooter filmed the whole thing, then posted it on social media.
Cops caught up with him and he committed suicide.

If only he had led with that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2015, 01:53:52 PM
Yeah.  The shooter sort of reminds me a little of Perd from Parks & Recreation. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 26, 2015, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: Liep on August 26, 2015, 10:33:11 AM
Former employee it seems:

"We believe it was a disgruntled employee who fired at the TV crew," Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) said Wednesday morning in an online Q&A session
A gay black man who felt that he was discriminated against. That would have been near the bottom of my list of suspects.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 12:16:41 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 26, 2015, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: Liep on August 26, 2015, 10:33:11 AM
Former employee it seems:

"We believe it was a disgruntled employee who fired at the TV crew," Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) said Wednesday morning in an online Q&A session
A gay black man who felt that he was discriminated against. That would have been near the bottom of my list of suspects.  :hmm:

Maybe he was versatile.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 12:19:00 AM
Quote from: mongers on August 26, 2015, 12:18:09 PM
Wow.

And I don't approve of the BBC showing what amounts to 'death porn';did we really need to see any of the tv item or the shooters video up to and including the sound of the first shot? 

I'd have preferred to seen it treated like an islamic state atrocity, where just one photo/frame is show during the tv coverage.

Not only that, he filmed it vertically. This atrocity has to stop - people need to learn how to use their iPhones as cameras.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 27, 2015, 12:51:11 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 26, 2015, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: Liep on August 26, 2015, 10:33:11 AM
Former employee it seems:

"We believe it was a disgruntled employee who fired at the TV crew," Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) said Wednesday morning in an online Q&A session
A gay black man who felt that he was discriminated against. That would have been near the bottom of my list of suspects.  :hmm:

Are you saying only angry white men can go on shooting rampages? That's discriminating! Check your privilege!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 27, 2015, 06:45:18 AM
heute, a free paper distributed on Vienna's subway lines (and closely linked to the tabloid Krone) chose this for today's cover:

"Murder live on TV!"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fepaper.heute.at%2Fdata%2Fresources%2F150827_HEU%2FHEU-150827-001-000-n.jpg&hash=73892e9fc9cfbaf912a18cf5f0661b094ab519c9)

Bottom left says, "Not a video game, but the attack filmed from the shooter's view."

:bleeding:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 06:49:15 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2015, 12:51:11 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 26, 2015, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: Liep on August 26, 2015, 10:33:11 AM
Former employee it seems:

"We believe it was a disgruntled employee who fired at the TV crew," Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) said Wednesday morning in an online Q&A session
A gay black man who felt that he was discriminated against. That would have been near the bottom of my list of suspects.  :hmm:

Are you saying only angry white men can go on shooting rampages? That's discriminating! Check your privilege!

In fact, given the typical mental state, it's a wonder so few gay men go on shooting rampages. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2015, 07:06:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 12:19:00 AM
Not only that, he filmed it vertically. This atrocity has to stop - people need to learn how to use their iPhones as cameras.

No shit.  I've tried to get my wife to cut that out for years now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 27, 2015, 07:07:44 AM
Have you ever tried to shoot someone while holding the iPhone horizontally?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 27, 2015, 07:17:28 AM
I'm not answering that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 27, 2015, 06:52:54 PM
Daily News had a similar page Syt, pretty fucked up in my opinion.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/08/27/new_york_daily_news_shooting_cover_why_the_paper_s_front_page_crosses_the.html
QuoteWhy That Daily News Cover Crosses the Line

By Leon Neyfakh

One day after a gunman in Virginia shot and killed two TV journalists in the middle of an early morning live broadcast, the media is still wrestling with how to cover the incident, with journalists asking themselves whether there is news value to showing their audiences video footage of the incident.

In the midst of that soul-searching, editors at the New York Daily News made a call that is being roundly condemned as a craven and unforgivable play for attention and sales. Having apparently decided to package the news in the most graphic and disturbing way possible, the editors of the Daily News published a front page composed of three side-by-side stills, each meticulously pulled from a first-person video of the murders that was shot and posted on Facebook yesterday by the gunman himself.

Each of the three images is focused on a distinctly horrifying moment of the attack. In the first, Alison Parker can be seen conducting an interview, smiling brightly and plainly unaware of the gun, which we can see in the image, pointed directly at her at point blank range. The second shows the gun firing, its muzzle alight, while the shooter aims it directly at Parker's torso. In the third and final image, we see Parker's reaction to what is taking place, turning toward her assailant with her face contorted in abject terror and her body instinctively assuming a defensive stance.

Publishing these images—and presenting them in the form of a comic strip, no less—was a tasteless and cynical decision on the part of the Daily News. But it's worth examining why the paper's cover has provoked such a powerful reaction of disgust, including from those of us who were ambivalent or conflicted yesterday about whether publishing the available footage amounted to shielding readers from the gruesome reality of what happened.

Maybe the most important fact about these images is that they show the murder being committed from the murderer's point of view, bringing to mind a screenshot from a first-person shooter video game, and forcing anyone who happens to pass a newsstand today to imagine themselves in the killer's position. And while it's not quite right to say that in doing so, the Daily News was inviting people to identify with Vester Flanagan, the fact is that anyone who sees this cover will have no choice but to assume his perspective. That includes children, which is one reason some readers are outraged. But perhaps more consequentially, it could also include people with revenge fantasies similar to the one that apparently motivated Flanagan—disturbed individuals who could conceivably be stimulated and catalyzed by the experience of imagining themselves in his shoes.     

By isolating the seconds before, during, and after Flanagan pulls the trigger, the Daily News is indulging in—and prompting others to indulge in—a morbid fascination with what it's like to kill someone. It plays on the same journalistic instinct that arguably led the New York Post, in 2012, to publish an image of a doomed man who had fallen onto the subway tracks staring at the headlights of an oncoming train—a deviant and ugly spin on the widespread, and usually innocuous, practice of creating content that offers "relatability." And while there is an argument to be made that the country would be better off if more people understood, on a visceral level, the bottomless tragedy that accompanies each and every gun death, attracting readers by offering them access to that feeling where you sneak up on an unsuspecting human being and take her life is not a bad place to draw a line.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 28, 2015, 12:07:44 AM
Am I the only one who is utterly baffled by the repeated calls and voices that media have crossed the line on the coverage of one issue or another? I mean, by now, I thought noone should have any doubts that journalists are scum who would do anything for sales/ratings, so every time a tragedy happens, the question is not whether someone inevitably publishes disturbing, tasteless images of it but who does it - so there may be a round of condemnation from the rest of these despicable hypocrites, followed by an insincere apology.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2015, 01:14:36 AM
I'm glad we have slate ready to call out the venerable New York daily news.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 01:30:53 AM
I have no idea why Tim keeps posting articles from there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2015, 01:48:23 AM
Force of habit?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2015, 02:20:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 01:30:53 AM
I have no idea why Tim keeps posting articles from there.
Because I honestly like the site, duh.

I don't care what you folks think about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2015, 02:45:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2015, 02:20:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 01:30:53 AM
I have no idea why Tim keeps posting articles from there.
Because I honestly like the site, duh.

:(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2015, 07:22:31 AM
:lol:  Don't ever change, Tim.


Actually, change.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 28, 2015, 07:47:44 AM
Slate is no worse than 90% of the article-publishing websites out there. Certainly better than the crap on Yahoo(which somehow is the first page when I open my browser, in spite of having set my home page to google  <_<).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2015, 08:30:32 AM
Disagree. Slate is mostly homegrown piss poor editorials. Yahoo news is mostly an aggregator of news from other sources (though they do have some content generation too).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
I loathe the clickbait Yahoo front page so much.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 08:36:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2015, 12:51:11 AM
Are you saying only angry white men can go on shooting rampages? That's discriminating! Check your privilege!

I have to say when I heard it was a dude I just assumed it was angry white man again. My bigotry knows no end.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2015, 08:43:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
I loathe the clickbait Yahoo front page so much.

Yeah it used to be my go-to but I abandoned it a couple years ago. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
There's something seriously wrong with people who want to watch snuff films. :wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
I loathe the clickbait Yahoo front page so much.

You want clickbait? A German site had front page articles along the lines of, "One of these 4 TV presenters has cancer - click here to find out who!" Several times.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 28, 2015, 09:39:12 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
There's something seriously wrong with people who want to watch snuff films. :wacko:

LOL that's an understatement of the hour.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 09:42:05 AM
It seems like a no-brainer but a couple of FB friends of mine actually watched it and then were like "that was very disturbing".

Oh, you think so, Einstein  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 28, 2015, 10:17:45 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2015, 08:43:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
I loathe the clickbait Yahoo front page so much.

Yeah it used to be my go-to but I abandoned it a couple years ago. 

If it wasn't such a routine, I would stop. :blush: So many sponsored 'articles' throughout.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on August 28, 2015, 10:39:10 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
There's something seriously wrong with people who want to watch snuff films. :wacko:

Seems an inherent part of human nature. Same reason why traffic slows in the opposite side of the highway from a serious accident - rubberneckers want to see the carnage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 28, 2015, 10:45:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 28, 2015, 10:39:10 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
There's something seriously wrong with people who want to watch snuff films. :wacko:

Seems an inherent part of human nature. Same reason why traffic slows in the opposite side of the highway from a serious accident - rubberneckers want to see the carnage.

I don't. I get physically ill even when I think about this shit too much. Would never watch a snuff film.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 28, 2015, 10:56:51 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 28, 2015, 10:17:45 AM
So many sponsored 'articles' throughout.

When they were easier to ignore it wasn't an issue.  But they look just enough like real articles to trick me into briefly paying attention to them.  And that's just irritating.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
Courtesy of my sister on Facebook:

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/11935187_882183768516826_756580961_n.jpg?oh=61072d653ffd6859a7eac130cae3b44e&oe=55E24ADA)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 03:58:49 PM
Your sister is a lunatic. :wacko:

No offense. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2015, 04:00:19 PM
Definitely none taken.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 28, 2015, 04:01:13 PM
I imagine that wasn't the sister with three gay children?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2015, 04:05:54 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 28, 2015, 04:01:13 PM
I imagine that wasn't the sister with three gay children?

Nope. She's not exactly fond of teh gays, and neither is her husband or her daughter.

She also posted this:

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11870676_757839617695908_6910160660978157878_n.png?oh=bf55202b47a7ae8b7143a363671956ed&oe=56832C38)

Which is of course stupid, our Dad only slapped our face; our Mom would whip our asses, with a wooden spoon (which on one occasion broke on my ass when I was 3 or 4). These days it would be a case for the child welfare services.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 28, 2015, 03:58:49 PM
Your sister is a lunatic. :wacko:

No offense. :)

I take offense!  She's not crazy, she just has trouble making correlations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 07:26:08 PM
Mental illnesses would finally be solved in this country if we just beat the kids more.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 28, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 07:26:08 PM
Mental illnesses would finally be solved in this country if we just beat the kids more.

Dunno about mental illness, but I'm sure it would reduce hipsterism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 08:49:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 28, 2015, 07:26:08 PM
Mental illnesses would finally be solved in this country if we just beat the kids more.

Man, I got the same treatment as Syt did from his parents.  Slap and wooden spoon.  Still went crazy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on August 28, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
My mom related to me (well after I was legally an adult) that once when she was spanked with a wooden spoon it broke...and she laughed.  Her point was to NEVER laugh in such a situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:25:39 PM
Syt's sister comes across to me as more retarded than psycho.

No offense intended, obviously.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on August 29, 2015, 06:30:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:25:39 PM
Syt's sister comes across to me as more retarded than psycho.

No offense intended, obviously.

Not that I would think any better of Syt's sister (sorry) but was the shooter gay?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.

I thought Kinsey went to 6
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:05:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
Courtesy of my sister on Facebook:

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/11935187_882183768516826_756580961_n.jpg?oh=61072d653ffd6859a7eac130cae3b44e&oe=55E24ADA)

I thought this was a rather funny comparison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on August 29, 2015, 07:11:23 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.

I thought Kinsey went to 6

Yes, the theoretical maximum does go to six, but that's an unrealistic score for anyone not playing a homosexual in a TV production.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:23:20 PM
Quote from: Liep on August 29, 2015, 07:11:23 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.

I thought Kinsey went to 6

Yes, the theoretical maximum does go to six, but that's an unrealistic score for anyone not playing a homosexual in a TV production.

Well, wouldn't Marty, for example, be a six (Exclusively homosexual)? A six would mean full on gay, not part time like Grallon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2015, 07:43:09 PM
Maybe grallon hates women too much to be full on gay, is that what you mean?  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:52:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 29, 2015, 07:43:09 PM
Maybe grallon hates women too much to be full on gay, is that what you mean?  :hmm:

He, stikes me as mostly bluster.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 30, 2015, 12:08:49 AM
Mysteriously, she has taken down the flags post in the meantime. :D

She replaced it with this:

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11902256_10206352133779566_8669218029066783000_n.jpg?oh=bc608436f8fb6cb39e1c0d4a51910298&oe=568138C7)

And my other, gay tolerant sister liked it. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 30, 2015, 12:25:33 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 30, 2015, 12:28:22 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.

I thought Kinsey went to 6

If you already knew why'd you ask peckerwood.

I coulda sworn Liam Neeson said it went to 5 when he was sucking face with that dude.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 30, 2015, 12:49:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 30, 2015, 12:28:22 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.

I thought Kinsey went to 6

If you already knew why'd you ask peckerwood.

I coulda sworn Liam Neeson said it went to 5 when he was sucking face with that dude.

Figured some newer metric than 1948
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 30, 2015, 01:25:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
Courtesy of my sister on Facebook:

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/11935187_882183768516826_756580961_n.jpg?oh=61072d653ffd6859a7eac130cae3b44e&oe=55E24ADA)

The picture doesn't show. What is (was) it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 30, 2015, 01:29:42 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 30, 2015, 12:08:49 AM
Mysteriously, she has taken down the flags post in the meantime. :D

She replaced it with this:

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11902256_10206352133779566_8669218029066783000_n.jpg?oh=bc608436f8fb6cb39e1c0d4a51910298&oe=568138C7)

And my other, gay tolerant sister liked it. :)

Ok let me make a guess about the "flag post" which I haven't seen... it compared the Confederate flag to the Rainbow flag? Am I right? Do I win a prize?  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 30, 2015, 01:31:50 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 30, 2015, 12:28:22 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 29, 2015, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
As gay as one can get.

How gay can one get? Are there varying degrees of gayness?

Kinsey scale has five points.  5 is all the way gay.

I thought Kinsey went to 6

If you already knew why'd you ask peckerwood.

I coulda sworn Liam Neeson said it went to 5 when he was sucking face with that dude.

Yeah I thought it went to 5 too. Then again, there is a drag queen burlesque band called Kinsey Sicks so maybe it went to 6.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 30, 2015, 01:33:56 AM
Anyways, it's not exactly revelatory to say mental illness is more prevalent among gays compared to the general public. And I would imagine the rate is even higher among US black gays, as US blacks are generally more homophobic as a community than the general public.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 01, 2015, 12:40:49 AM
Georgia police shoot up the wrong house, whoops!


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/31/ga-police-officer-shot/71495714/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 01, 2015, 06:18:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 30, 2015, 01:33:56 AM
Anyways, it's not exactly revelatory to say mental illness is more prevalent among gays compared to the general public. And I would imagine the rate is even higher among US black gays, as US blacks are generally more homophobic as a community than the general public.

I don't think my bout of mental illness had anything to do with homophobia, thank you very much! :angry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 03, 2015, 01:09:32 AM
What cops in New York really think of the Mayor. News Flash, it's not good. <_<

http://observer.com/2015/09/talking-a-blue-streak-cops-blast-mayor-de-blasio-for-making-a-tough-job-even-tougher/ (http://observer.com/2015/09/talking-a-blue-streak-cops-blast-mayor-de-blasio-for-making-a-tough-job-even-tougher/)

QuoteThis Is What Cops Really Think About Bill de Blasio In startling interviews with a cop-turned journalist, several NYPD officers reveal their fears, frustrations and anger By Paul Bacon | 09/01/15 3:07pm Read more at:

Almost everywhere I went as a beat cop in South Harlem, I felt welcome.

I joined the NYPD right after the September 11th attacks, which had changed how many people viewed police. Thanks to 60 officers who sacrificed their lives in a desperate bid to save people from the burning World Trade Center, New Yorkers started seeing their cops as protectors rather than "pigs." Flower-strewn tributes to fallen cops sprouted up on sidewalks. NYPD baseball caps became popular, if unlikely, fashion accessories. People who might normally consider me an oppressor for roaming the hallways of their buildings in uniform thanked me for making their homes safer. At the same time, violent crime in New York was in decline, reinforcing the perception of cops as heroic public servants.

Now, almost 14 years later, some cops feel as if public opinion has turned against them.

After two white officers accused of killing black men, Michael Brown and Eric Garner, in separate incidents in Ferguson, Mo., and Staten Island were exonerated in criminal court, protests clogged New York's streets and closed bridges last December. Some protestors held signs calling for the death of cops; others equated New York's Finest to the Ku Klux Klan. Days later, two NYPD officers sitting in their patrol car in Brooklyn, Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu, were ambushed and executed by a gunman who had boasted on social media of seeking revenge against the police. Yet more anti-police protests followed.

I wonder how I would have dealt with this toxic environment if I were still in uniform. I left the job in 2005 because it was sending me to an early grave. In the summer of 2003, I caught a cold but didn't take sick leave because I 'd been told that advancing my police career required a spotless attendance record. After a few days of working while sick, I was hospitalized for pneumonia. Before the severe illness, I bicycled to work whenever possible and hiked on weekends. After the pneumonia, I spent nearly all of my free time sleeping off the stress of the job, including long hours, last-minute shift changes and the rigors of dealing with people at their worst moments.

If I couldn't handle being a cop in the good old days, how could I cope with it now? "You'd hate it," said Officer Broderick, who is still on patrol. "It's a whole new world. People are refusing to obey lawful orders because they don't think we have the authority to stop them anymore. They tell us, 'I don't have to roll down my window because the mayor said so.'

" Like the other police officers interviewed for this article—an admittedly informal survey and small sample—Officer Broderick agreed to speak to the Observer on the condition that we not reveal his real name; the NYPD prohibits officers from speaking to the media. And like every other cop I spoke with, he said he was flabbergasted when Mayor Bill de Blasio seemed to insinuate that his police force was rife with racists. After a Staten Island grand jury decided not to indict the white officer who allegedly killed Eric Garner with an illegal chokehold, the mayor said at a press conference that he feared for the safety of his biracial son and warned Dante to "take special care" when dealing with the police.

"When the mayor essentially told the entire world that we are all racists, it made our jobs much, much harder," Officer Broderick, who works in a historically crime-ridden precinct, said. Despite his choice of profession, "I'm basically a shy person," he noted. "It's a big deal for me to come up to a bunch of people playing loud music on the street and tell them to be quiet, but I do it because it's my job ... It used to be when we told people to turn down their boom boxes, they'd do it because they didn't want a summons. But one night after the mayor's comments, one of my co-workers asked some kids to be quiet, and they told him to fuck himself and they turned their music up louder."

Officer Casados grew up in a neighborhood beset with drug-related violence. As a child he saw a man publicly pummelling another man with a baseball bat in broad daylight. He came to admire the NYPD after they stopped the attack and ran after the attacker "as if their own lives depended on it." Officer Casados said being a cop, while never easy, has become especially challenging of late.

Not long ago, he was surveilling a man who was selling drugs on a street corner. When he approached the dealer to arrest him, the man dropped his stash and challenged Officer Casados to a fight. The man had been caught red-handed, said Officer Casados, "but instead of giving up, he said, 'Nuh-uh, pig. You're going to have to earn this.' Then he pounced on me." In the resulting scuffle, Officer Casados, who said he had been caught off-guard by the man's gall, suffered serious injuries.

I asked Officer Casados whether the rising tide of anti-police sentiment had motivated the suspect to attack him. After all, street dealers are not known as a rational bunch. "I don't know for sure," he acknowledged. "But I see this kind of attitude all the time now. People cuss me out like never before, and criminals are getting bolder and bolder. They think the mayor is on their side."

A spokesperson for Mayor de Blasio issued a brief response email: "Crime continues to remain at record low levels in NYC, even as we've reduced the overuse of stop and frisk. The numbers don't lie, New York City continues to be one of the safest big cities in the world."

I felt sorry for Mayor de Blasio when every cop I interviewed cast him as the enemy. After all, unlike his predecessor, he hired 1300 new officers, spending a cool $100 million a year to do so. But when I asked the officers, "Has the mayor done anything to support police?" The answer was uniformly, "No."

I was inclined to give the mayor the benefit of the doubt because he had campaigned for office on a promise of reforming the NYPD's stop-question-frisk practices. I had detested the policy ever since I worked in a detail whose unofficial goal was to stop as many people as possible. For everyone we stopped, we filled out a UF-250 form and sent it to borough headquarters at the end of the night. UF-250s were originally created as a way of collecting data on street encounters, but they became, like summonses, just another form of currency in the department's vast underground economy. It seemed we could never write enough UF-250s to satisfy our bosses because the quotas kept getting higher and higher.

According to the police department, cops stopped 97,296 people in 2002, my first year on the job. In 2005, my last year on the job, the number had reached 398,191. Stop-question-frisk quotas were declared illegal in New York State in 2010, but that didn't stop precinct commanders from demanding their cops continue to produce numbers. The year after the court ruling, the number of stop-question-frisk encounters skyrocketed to 685,724, a more than seven-fold increase in eight years.

So when Bill de Blasio promised to end the madness, I was intrigued. When it seemed that he had ended the madness—only 46,235 stops were made in 2014—I was impressed. But when I learned about the resulting changes, I started to think there had been a method to the madness. All the cops interviewed blamed the curtailing of stop-question-frisk on a recent spike in violent crime in the city. This spring and summer, the news has been dominated by headlines about increases in the most troubling offenses after many successive years of declines. In the week of August 10 to August 16, the NYPD reported double-digit increases over the same period last year in the categories of murder, rape, robbery and misdemeanor sex crimes. Year-to-date, murder is up 9.5 percent, rape 7.1 percent; other categories of crimes are practically unchanged or down.

Mayor de Blasio recently urged reporters to look past the violent crime headlines and focus on the fact that overall crime is down. "Overall crime across the city is down more than 4 percent compared to last year—itself a record-setting year for crime lows—and shootings are also down compared to last year," he wrote the other day in a Daily News Op-Ed. According to Officer Casados, the mayor is playing a shell game with statistics. "Overall crime numbers may be down, but those numbers are not reliable," he said. "Overall crime includes things like larcenies, which cops are pressured to under-report. It's common practice for a cop to start a report for a larceny that eventually gets downgraded to lost property. Crimes like murders, shootings and rapes are too hard to downgrade, so those numbers actually reflect reality."

[In a phone interview with the Observer, Stephen Davis, Deputy Commissioner, Public Information at the NYPD, noted that, "We had 778 shootings year to date, as opposed to 790 shootings in 2014; they're down, but not dramatically down or dramatically up. Certain crimes, specifically street crimes, historically rise in the summer months." He added that, "We've yet to find any established correlation in the stop-question-and-frisk and violence. In fact, over the past ten years, those years where we had the most stop-question-and-frisks, the most, we've also had the most shootings and homicides." Mr. Davis also questioned the notion that the NYPD battles a morale problem: "I don't see a major morale problem here. I think we had more of a morale problem, certainly during the demonstration times, when police were being subjected to a lot of stress and a lot of national attention. Certainly, morale was affected by the deaths of Ramos and Liu—no question about that."]

Officer Lorenzo disagrees. He grew up during an era when packs of men roamed many streets hunting for weak-looking victims, a blood sport known as "wilding." He routinely felt scared to leave his family's apartment—until he decided to empower himself by becoming a police officer. He sees the uptick in violent crime as a product of the loss of stop-question-frisk. "Criminals see we're not stopping people on the street anymore, so they've adjusted their way of doing business. Where they might have thought twice about walking down the street with a 9 mm, now they're packing one. ... When cops aren't allowed to be cops, there are more weapons on the street, and we get more violent crime."

Officer Russell, who lived in a tranquil community before moving to New York City, said that placing additional constraints on stop-question-frisk can prove dangerous. "We need the power to stop people on reasonable suspicion," he said. "If you weigh us down with procedures and politeness, we lose our tactical advantage. Say I stop a guy who has a gun-shaped bulge in his jacket pocket, and I advise him, as the mayor wants me to do, that I am officer so-and-so of the such-and-such precinct and I am now going to frisk him based on reasonable suspicion of a crime due to the gun-shaped bulge in his pocket. That may only take me a few seconds, but in tactical terms, I've just given that guy a world of time to weigh his options, which are either to shoot me or to go to jail. Before I've finished my little introduction, he's already reached for his weapon and used it against me. If, instead, I just approach that guy and reach for the bulge, I might be able to get my hand on his weapon before he does."

Mr. Davis argues that the NYPD trains officers on the tactical and legal aspects of stop-question-frisk and that not all scenarios mandate warnings. "If you had a robbery suspect and you see a guy who matches the description of a guy who pulled a robbery with a gun and he's got a bulge on the side, you don't have to go up and have a discussion with him."

Could body-worn cameras help or harm cops do their demanding job? None of the officers interviewed have patrolled with the cameras because the NYPD only recently launched a pilot program to test the technology, which recently was expanded to arm 1000 officers with the equipment. But some cops have already formed strong opinions about the controversial cameras.

"Wearing body cameras is the only way cops can deal with the smartphone era," Officer Lorenzo said. "The videos people put on the Internet always seem to start after a situation has escalated. You see the cop taking action, but you don't see why. With body cameras, at least the cop has a chance of showing a jury what he was reacting to."

Officer Broderick said he believes body cameras will be good for cops overall but could complicate responding to domestic violence. "It's hard enough getting information from a victim when my only recording devices are my eyes and ears. How are they going to react when they know they're being videotaped?"

Officer Russell suggests that cops shouldn't be the only public servants forced to wear body cameras. "If government transparency is so important, then everyone who works in City Hall should have to wear one, from the interns to the mayor. Let's all be accountable."

One of the changes recommended by the NYPD's court-appointed federal monitor is to require officers to give a receipt to people they stop if the stop does not result in an arrest. The receipt would provide the officer's shield number and information about how to file a complaint against the officer. The city has started a pilot program to give receipts to people who are stopped but released. "This is a product of a judge's directive and a federal monitor's oversight," Mr. Davis said. "And if the officer does things correctly, he's going to be defended."

If implemented throughout the force, Officer Casados worries that the policy will make cops' lives more miserable. "When I stop people because they fit the physical description of a criminal suspect, sometimes they accuse me of racial profiling. And if I have to pat them down because the criminal I'm looking for is armed and dangerous, they're even more upset. So after offending someone like this, the last thing I want to do is give them a receipt with my shield number and a phone number to call to complain about me. There's no question they're going to call that number, either to vent their anger or to cash in on their suffering with a lawsuit."

Officer Broderick said the increased fear of civil rights lawsuits has already changed how cops canvass for suspects. "It used to be if we saw someone who mostly fit the description of a suspect, we'd stop the guy because the description may not be a 100 percent accurate. The suspect may actually have been wearing blue jeans, but the guy he robbed told the cops the suspect was wearing black jeans. In the dark, blue jeans may look black, so we'd take that into account. Now, if we see someone who doesn't fit the description exactly, we'll drive right on by. There's too much risk for us if we get it wrong."

Officer Holt is an African-American from New York City who spent part of his career policing a high-crime area of Manhattan. He cited the $5.9 million settlement the City of New York offered the family of Eric Garner, the African-American man who died after a white police officer brought him to the ground with an alleged illegal chokehold. The public perception was that another racist, white cop had killed another innocent, unarmed black man, but, Officer Holt noted, "Cops didn't see it that way. They saw a very large, unhealthy man who committed a crime and resisted arrest, and a cop who was much smaller than him who did what was required to get the man in handcuffs."

Officer Casados said that when the city paid out a huge cash award to Garner's family before a civil trial had even commenced, "It told cops that even if you do the right thing, you are still wrong, and we will not back you up."

*** Who has their back? According to Officer Broderick, most cops think Commissioner Bill Bratton is on their side even though he works for Mayor de Blasio and backs his policies. "We know he's in a bad position. He likes going after the small crimes because they lead to the bigger crimes, which is what we've learned in the past ... Personally I don't understand why [Mr. Bratton's] staying in his job. I guess he's doing what he can to help us out." As for the public, it's not entirely clear whether they have the cops' backs now or will in the future. Officer Casados fretted, "It really hurts my feelings that people hate me just because I'm a cop. Those people don't know that I once put my own life on the line to save a complete stranger from being shot and I would do the same thing for them." Officer Broderick said that if there was one thing he could tell the people of New York, it would be, "Don't think we're all the same, or that we're all racist, or that even most of us are racist. We come from every possible background. We're men and women and black and white and every other color. In our ranks are soldiers, comic book nerds, musicians, accountants. We're just normal people." At a memorial service in January for the two Brooklyn cops killed by a police-hating gunman, many cops did an about-face while the mayor was speaking to them. Officer Lorenzo said the people of New York shouldn't take this the wrong way. "We may have turned our backs on the mayor, but we'll never turn our backs on someone who needs help."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on September 03, 2015, 09:11:45 AM
Bold the interesting bits, Timmy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 12, 2015, 07:12:28 AM
How they deal with credit card fraud suspects in NYC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui46aPahjhg

Turns out that the guy thrown to the ground was not the suspect, but former tennis pro James Blake.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.dailykos.com%2Fimages%2F163835%2Flarge%2FScreen_Shot_2015-09-11_at_12.37.28_PM.png%3F1441989490&hash=f4cf85b8e51fa13d003d29d83edeb52b3aba26a4)
Blake left, actual suspect right

Oh and the actual suspect? Also innocent: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/11/1420432/-Not-only-was-tennis-star-James-Blake-innocent-so-was-the-other-black-man-they-said-he-looked-like

The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/the-shocking-takedown-of-james-blake/405007/

Oopsie.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 12, 2015, 09:17:01 AM
I wouldn't mind tackling these guys down. :perv:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Phillip V on September 12, 2015, 09:50:26 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 12, 2015, 07:12:28 AM
How they deal with credit card fraud suspects in NYC:
Credit card companies should pay for their own police. :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 12, 2015, 01:37:13 PM
The James Blake incident was just ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 12, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
I really hope this is the Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, because if this is true, holy shit!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3232178/Outrage-black-woman-forced-spend-8-days-psych-ward-cops-not-believe-BMW-driving-hers.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 12, 2015, 07:19:32 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 12, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
I really hope this is the Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, because if this is true, holy shit!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3232178/Outrage-black-woman-forced-spend-8-days-psych-ward-cops-not-believe-BMW-driving-hers.html

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 12, 2015, 07:57:09 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 12, 2015, 07:19:32 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 12, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
I really hope this is the Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, because if this is true, holy shit!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3232178/Outrage-black-woman-forced-spend-8-days-psych-ward-cops-not-believe-BMW-driving-hers.html

:lol:
Yes , eight days in a psych ward because a balck woman couldn't conceivably own a BWM is hilarious.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 12, 2015, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 12, 2015, 07:57:09 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 12, 2015, 07:19:32 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 12, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
I really hope this is the Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, because if this is true, holy shit!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3232178/Outrage-black-woman-forced-spend-8-days-psych-ward-cops-not-believe-BMW-driving-hers.html

:lol:
Yes , eight days in a psych ward because a balck woman couldn't conceivably own a BWM is hilarious.   :rolleyes:

No, Tim. This story is so far out there, it could not have been made up. I have no doubt it happened. You cant make shit up like this. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on September 12, 2015, 09:21:29 PM
Unless it happened again that is a relatively old story.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 12, 2015, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: sbr on September 12, 2015, 09:21:29 PM
Unless it happened again that is a relatively old story.

Tim post an old story about bad cops....no. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 12, 2015, 10:42:53 PM
I find Bravo's Dr. Hibbert schtick to be a little unsettling. :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 13, 2015, 12:01:01 AM
I'm not a former stripper.  :mad: :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2015, 10:58:12 PM
Jaywalking! How villanious!  :mad:

http://usuncut.com/news/hes-a-fcking-kid-video-shows-9-cops-arrest-crying-black-teen-for-jaywalking/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2015, 11:04:05 PM
Don't mess with Texas  :wacko:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/18/1422588/-Texas-police-caught-in-an-enormous-lie-about-their-murder-of-an-unarmed-mother-Yvette-Smith#

Quote


Texas police caught in an enormous lie about their murder of unarmed mother Yvette Smith

Yvette Smith
On February 16, 2014, Yvette Smith, a 47-year-old mother beloved by her family and community, was shot twice by an AR-15 assault rifle and killed on the spot by local police as she opened the front door of her home. A full 18 months later, as her case finally came before a jury, it's disturbingly clear that the police lied, repeatedly, in an attempt to cover up their murder of Smith.

First off, Smith called 911 for help because two men in her home were arguing over a financial dispute and she felt it was getting out of hand. She had nothing to do with the dispute and was an innocent bystander—a victim, even. When the police showed up, both men were already in the front yard and it appeared that the dispute was settled. This should've been case closed, but it wasn't.

When Smith opened the front door of her home, she was shot twice with a high-powered .223 caliber rifle in less than two seconds by Officer Daniel Willis of Bastrop County, Texas, outside of Austin.

The lies and the coverup began immediately. The entire department was involved.

Below, see the initial statement from Sheriff Terry Pickering, issued just hours after Smith died.

  Yvette Smith Shooting - First Police Statement by hsiehnation (http://www.scribd.com/doc/208230113/Yvette-Smith-Shooting-First-Police-Statement)


As you may have seen, police not only claimed that Smith emerged from the home with a firearm, they stated that she ignored police commands. In essence, Smith came out of that house, according to police, ready to bring hellfire and damnation on police and they acted out in self-defense from an incredibly dangerous woman.

This is a lie. A complete fabrication. When Sheriff Terry Pickering issued the statement, he was fully and completely aware that Yvette Smith wasn't armed. No weapon was found on or near her. He knew this. The officers on the scene knew this, but Sheriff Pickering issued that statement anyway. It sounded better.

Knowing that the evidence and scores of eyewitnesses saw that she was unarmed, police later retracted the statement, but have given absolutely no answers or held anyone responsible for the earlier lie—which was the primary reason given for shooting Smith in the first place.

It may be hard to believe, but the lies get worse—much worse.

As you saw in the initial statement released by police, they claimed that Smith ignored their commands. On September 17, in open court, we learned that this was also an elaborate lie told to justify police misconduct.


QuoteDeputy Scott Gaskamp, who arrived at the scene just moments before the shooting, had told investigators and written reports stating that they had ordered Smith to show them her hands, to open the door and come out of the house, Gaskamp testified Thursday.
Recordings of the incident showed no commands were ever issued.

When pressed to explain this in court, Officer Gaskamp literally admitted that he made the whole damn thing up. He also stated that he couldn't remember telling this lie to the lead investigator, until they played him the recorded interview where he stated the lie over and over again.

QuoteGaskamp told the court he never amended any of his reports or came forward to investigators to correct his errors. After reviewing the dashboard camera footage caught from his patrol vehicle and Willis' vehicle, he realized his written reports were wrong and that he had never told Smith to put her hands up or issued any other command.

"I did not say those words. It must have been a figment of my imagination," Gaskamp said.
Are you tracking this? Let me summarize it for you . . .

Yvette Smith called 911 for help.

She opened the front door of her home and was almost instantly shot twice by police with an AR-15 assault rifle.

The officers on the scene lied and said she was armed.

The supervising officer doubled down on the lie and spread it in a press release.

The officers then lied and said they made multiple commands that Smith ignored, but the dashcam footage shows that none of those commands were made. Not one of them.

The coverup continued . . .

Quote
A few weeks after the shooting, an investigation by BCSO revealed that several supervisors had modified Willis' field training records after the shooting in an effort to make sure the records were completed accurately. A lieutenant and a sergeant were demoted to patrol deputy and five additional supervisors also faced disciplinary action because of the record changes.

Lastly, and this may be the most disturbing fact of all, it was discovered that the officer who shot and killed Smith was found incompetent by another police department.

QuoteBefore working for Bastrop County Sheriff's Office, Willis, 29, was employed by Travis County. A Travis County 2012 evaluation of Willis stated that Willis needed more development in handling explosive situations and in the utilization of common sense.

Yes, you read that correctly: The damn evaluation said the police officer who killed Yvette Smith struggled with "common sense," but was hired by a neighboring department anyway.
While Officer Willis has been charged in Smith's death, it is increasingly clear that the entire Bastrop County Sheriff's Office conspired to protect one another and cover up this crime. All of them should be immediately fired and a statewide investigation needs to be launched into the corrupt actions that we can clearly see in the murder of Yvette Smith.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2015, 11:50:24 PM
Brazen fucks <_<

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/23/police-investigator-cops-beat-me-up.html

Quote
Police Investigator: Cops Beat Me Up

The dash cam went dark as soon as officers saw his ID. Then an officer allegedly taunted him, "What are you going to tell me next? You can't breathe?"

CHICAGO — A man who investigates the Chicago Police Department for a living was beaten by officers once they discovered what he did, according to a lawsuit filed in federal court.

George Roberts is a supervisor at the Independent Police Review Authority, the agency responsible for investigating claims of police misconduct and officer-involved shootings. On New Year's Day 2015, Roberts was pulled over after he left a bar. One of six officers who stopped Roberts found his IPRA identification badge.

Immediately afterwards, the police dash cam recording the traffic stop cuts to black; Roberts alleges in his federal lawsuit against the police this is because another officer intentionally turned off the camera. Roberts's attorney claims police paperwork did not even note any footage existed. In fact, police only admitted to its existence when Roberts's criminal counsel discovered it during his trial for driving under the influence.





With no footage to contest their account of the incident, police told the media that Roberts was drunk and swerving his vehicle and that he refused to answer questions or to take a field-sobriety test. They arrested him for minor traffic violations and DUI. Police said he fell asleep in the back of the squad car and he soiled himself.

Roberts was acquitted on the DUI charge in a bench trial and he says police are lying about what really happened after the dash cam went dark—that he was thrown to the ground before he was handcuffed and put in the back of a squad car.

Roberts's wrists were too large for the single pair of handcuffs police slapped on him, his lawyer says. When Roberts, at 6-foot-3 and 315 pounds, complained that even the slightest movement caused the cuffs to cut into his wrists, Officer "R. Adams" allegedly taunted him with Eric Garner's last words.


"What are you going to tell me next, you can't breathe?"

Roberts, who is black, claims he was pulled out of the car and thrown to the ground again—a collision so violent that it made him lose control of his bowels. From there Roberts was taken to the lock-up, where he stayed overnight in his soiled clothes.

The only visit from an officer that night was borne not of concern but jubilation, according to Roberts. A white-shirt officer, which denotes high rank, peered in on Roberts as he sat defeated on the cell floor, then pointed and laughed.


IPRA is used to getting beat up by Chicago's cops.

Lorenzo Davis, who along with Roberts was one of just two black supervisors at IPRA, is also suing the city. Davis says he was fired after refusing to whitewash investigations of three fatal shootings carried out by Chicago police officers. While Davis remains unsure whether police targeted Roberts, he is sure that telling the truth about cops gets punished.




"What are you going to tell me next, you can't breathe?"

"Some people seem to think that someone saw him and recognized him, saw him in a bar and saw him drinking," Davis says of Roberts. "That was a theory initially—that this would be a way to get back at someone who worked at IPRA."

The only time IPRA had the balls to suggest terminating a cop was after the state's attorney already charged him in a homicide, which hadn't happened to any other cops in IPRA's lifetime.

In 2012, Detective Dante Servin fired his unregistered handgun from his car, killing Rekia Boyd. (Servin has maintained he saw a man with a gun near Boyd, but investigators revealed the man was holding only a cellphone.) Servin was charged with involuntary manslaughter but was acquitted by a Cook County judge in April on the novel basis that Servin should've been charged with first-degree murder.

Not only will Servin not do time in prison, he may not even lose his job. That decision rests with the Chicago Police Board, made up of nine private citizens appointed by the mayor. Protesters faced off with the board last week to demand Servin be canned. At an earlier meeting, Boyd's brother even brought a bag of his sister's bloody hair to make his point. Last week, he was joined by more than 200 protesters outside Chicago police headquarters.

"What they're trying to do now is to—IPRA as well as the state's attorney's office—is to find one or two high-profile cases to come out against, and get all the press they can and get the heat off them," Davis said. "It's so political they might go ahead and fire him."

That's it: politics, not facts. Even when cops are caught on tape threatening and manhandling people—and then trying to steal the evidence—IPRA slaps them on the wrists. Just this week, video surfaced of two plainclothes officers roughing up an Chinese-American woman in a salon that was the target of a raid.

"You're not fucking American. I'll put you in a UPS box and send you back to wherever the fuck you came from," Officer Gerald Di Pasquale tells Jessica Klyzek, which was captured on surveillance video. Klyzek told him that she's a citizen.

"No you're not! You're here on borrowed time," Pasquale tells Klyzek. "So mind your fucking business before I shut this whole fucking place down. And I'll take this place and whoever owns it will fucking kill you because they don't care about you, OK? I'll take this building. You'll be dead and your whole family will be dead."

After realizing they were being recorded, the officers talk about how they could obtain the footage, not realizing it was stored off site.

For implying an innocent woman would die, allowing another officer to punch her in the face, then talking about hiding the evidence, IPRA recommended a 25-day suspension for Di Pasquale and an eight-day suspension for the officer who punched Klyzek.

Klyzek, Roberts, and Davis have all demanded that juries hear their cases, which would put Chicago, its police, and its police watchdogs all on trial.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 25, 2015, 02:05:35 AM
http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/13268/lawsuit_suit_claims_authorities_let_man_serving_time_for_ticket_die_in_macomb_jail#.VgTxksvtlBd

QuoteLawsuit Claims Authorities Let Man, Serving Time for Ticket, Die in Macomb Jail

A federal lawsuit filed in March alleges that David Stojcevski, 32, of Roseville, who was serving time for failing to pay a traffic ticket, died in the Macomb County Jail last year after serving 17 days as result of neglect on the part of guards and medical staff, WDIV reports.

Stojcevski was charged with obstruction of justice as part of careless driving charge. When he failed to pay the $772 fine last year, the judge sentenced him to 30 days in jail.

Kevin Dietz of WDIV reports that the man lost 50 pounds in 17 days and was in a high-observation unit and the cell was under 24-hour surveillance.  A videotape shows his body twitching, as he goes into drug withdrawal, lying on the floor naked, and nothing was done. Prisoners in that unit can't wear clothes for their own protection.

The family lawsuit states that Stojcevski had been seeing a doctor to beat addiction and had been prescribed methadone, xanax and another medication. Without these drugs, the body can go into severe withdrawal, Dietz reports.

Dietz reports that a nurse evaluated him and recommended he be placed in a medical drug detox unit. Instead, he was put in a jail cell. Six days later, he was acting erratic and moved to a mental health cell and put under suicide watch where his activities were under video surveillance

Near the end, before he died, he was visibly thinner and no longer had the strength to call for help, Dietz reports. In his final two days of life, Dietz reports, Stojcevski never got off the cold cement floor in his cell and was gasping for  his final breaths

Dietz says in his report:

QuoteIt is a hard thing to watch a man die, especially when it could have been prevented.

WDIV's medical expert, Dr. Frank McGeorge, who has been classified as an expert in custody death cases, tells Dietz that there is no reason for an incarcerated person who was watched for this period of time to die in custody.

"He should have had medical attention," McGeorge says.

"People do not die from withdrawal all the time," McGeorge says. "They die from withdrawal when there is neglect associated with it."

The Macomb County Sheriff's Department, which runs the jail, declined comment because of the pending litigation, Dietz reports.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 13, 2015, 07:52:59 PM
You can't handle the truth!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/freddie-gray-case-attorneys-will-try-to-exclude-officer-statements-from-trials/2015/10/12/409aff9e-7101-11e5-8d93-0af317ed58c9_story.html

QuoteBALTIMORE — A judge ruled Tuesday that the statements of at least two officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray can be included as evidence at trial, a victory for prosecutors who can use accounts to show jurors how Gray was treated by police.

Judge Barry G. Williams on Tuesday also barred attorneys from discussing the case with anyone except their clients and legal team. The judge planned to issue a written gag order in the case after the hearing, according to a spokeswoman for the Maryland Judiciary.

"Do not discuss my ruling and do not discuss this case," Williams ordered attorneys at the close of the proceedings that stretched over five hours.

The pretrial hearing marked the first time all six officers charged in Gray's April arrest and death appeared together in court and comes as the first trial in the case approaches next month.

Defense attorneys for five of the six officers filed motions this summer requesting that Williams ban the statements their clients made to investigators in the days after Gray, 25, suffered a severe spine injury in police custody. They argued the officers did not speak to investigators voluntarily or were not properly informed of their rights before detectives interviewed them — a violation of the Fifth Amendment right against forced self-incrimination. Only Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr., who drove the van that transported Gray and faces the most serious charge of second-degree murder, did not provide a statement to police.

The officer statements have not been made public.

Tuesday's proceedings focused on statements of Sgt. Alicia White and Officer William Porter, as attorneys for three of the other officers withdrew their requests with the option of filing them again later.

Ivan Bates, the attorney for White, said that on April 12, his client was treated as a witness in the arrest of Gray. He said that when she was again interviewed on April 17, she was told that it was "no more than a follow-up" and didn't realize that she was a suspect. White spoke with investigators in both instances because she thought her job would have been in jeopardy, according to her attorneys.

But Deputy State's Attorney Janice Bledsoe said it was "incredulous" that a Baltimore police sergeant wouldn't be aware of her rights and wouldn't know that she could walk away from an interview with detectives. White also signed a paper in an interview room clearly stating that she understood her rights and waived them freely, Bledsoe argued.

"It's clear Sergeant White waived all of her rights," Bledsoe said.

Gary Proctor, Porter's attorney, also argued his client felt as if he had to speak to investigators.


The detective who interviewed Porter told the officer, "I need you to tell me what happened out there," Proctor said. " 'I need you' is akin to an order."

Prosecutors played video of White and Porter being read their rights and signing waivers before each was interviewed by investigators.

In both cases, Williams ruled that the statements should be allowed. Both officers spoke voluntarily, were informed of their rights to remain silent and had an attorney present, Williams noted. The judge found neither was coerced or threatened.

The accounts of the officers are key to prosecutors' cases. They had previously requested that certain officers be tried first as a way of using the testimony of some defendants against others in later trials.

Tuesday's hearing was mostly technical but offered a preview of the proceedings to come, highlighting Williams's no-nonsense style from the bench. At one point he yelled "quiet!" during an outburst among attorneys as a witness was on the stand. And Williams warned Proctor that he could hold him in contempt of court, saying he didn't need "snarkiness" during the questioning of a witness. Proctor had asked a detective who was testifying whether she was familiar with Merriam-Webster after telling her he looked up the definition of "need" in the dictionary.

Along with Goodson, White and Porter, prosecutors charged three other Baltimore police officers in the case: Edward M. Nero, Garrett E. Miller and Lt. Brian W. Rice. Nero and Miller face second-degree assault and related charges, while Porter, Rice and White have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and other counts.

Prosecutors said Gray suffered a severe spinal injury while he was unrestrained in the back of a police van on April 12; he died a week later. Gray's death became another symbol of nationwide frustration over fatal interactions between police and black men, and his funeral led to riots and days of demonstrations

Porter is scheduled to go to trial first, on Nov. 30, with the remaining trials planned from January to March of next year.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on October 13, 2015, 11:15:48 PM
Lady cuts herself, calls 911, police arrive and shoot her child.



http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/06/19/whitehall-officer-involved-shooting.html


Quote
A Columbus police officer accidentally wounded a 4-year-old girl in Whitehall on Friday when he fired at a charging dog, police said.

A neighbor and the girl's uncle identified her as Ava Ellis, who was taken to Nationwide Children's Hospital, where police said she was in stable condition.

The officer was at a house in the 4100 block of Chandler Drive investigating a hit-and-run case about 3:10 p.m., Columbus police spokeswoman Denise Alex-Bouzounis said.

As the officer was walking from the home to his patrol car, a woman a few houses away called out to him, saying her sister and the girl's mother, Andrea Ellis, had cut herself.

The officer was at the doorway when a dog charged at him, Alex-Bouzounis said.

The officer fired once, missing the animal but striking the girl in the right leg. It was unclear whether the girl was hit directly or by a ricochet. The officer has not been identified.

Andrea Ellis was taken to OhioHealth Grant Medical Center for treatment of the cut.

Gary Parsley II said the officer was following up with him about Parsley's being struck by a car a couple weeks ago. When the girl's aunt called out to the officer, the officer walked over and Parsley returned to his house, when he heard a shot.

Neighbors say the officer walked back to his patrol car after the shooting.

"He seemed a little disoriented, like he was really bothered," said Norman Jones, who called the police after hearing the shot. Columbus and Whitehall police arrived at the scene shortly afterward.

Neighbors say Ellis came out of the house saying her daughter had been shot.

The officer was not injured.

Neighbor Carrie Britton said the family has two dogs and that they were on shock collars and couldn't get out of the house.

Two dogs were being held in the back of the house after the shooting, according to police.

Police and neighbors gave conflicting information about how many other children were in the house at the time of the shooting, but nobody beside the girl was wounded by a bullet.

The life-threatening beast doggie was apparently unsuccessful in its attempt to slay the officer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 14, 2015, 06:47:45 AM
No words.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
Really? A trained police officer's instinct when entering a house with a barking dog is to shoot it dead?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on October 14, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
Really? A trained police officer's instinct when entering a house with a barking dog is to shoot it dead?

A tazer or OC Spray is just as effective. Too many officers wrongfully go straight to lethal force then attempt to articulate a ustification after the fact. They need to fire those folks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 11:23:56 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 14, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
Really? A trained police officer's instinct when entering a house with a barking dog is to shoot it dead?

A tazer or OC Spray is just as effective. Too many officers wrongfully go straight to lethal force then attempt to articulate a ustification after the fact. They need to fire those folks.

Or heck just use your stick to fend it off. It is a dog not a ninja.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
Or alternatively one could restrain a dog when asking a stranger to come into your house.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 14, 2015, 02:06:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
Or alternatively one could restrain a dog when asking a stranger to come into your house.

I am sure most people do exactly that.

However, when their is an ongoing crisis such that the police are asked to intervene, it seems somewhat possible, even likely, that details like restraining the family pets might get overlooked.

I don't think it is beyond reason to expect police officers to not react to that (or other relatively low threat occurrences) by pulling out a deadly weapon and opening up inside a home.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 02:13:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
Or alternatively one could restrain a dog when asking a stranger to come into your house.

Or alternatively a police officer should be trained on how to deal with ordinary daily occurrences that happen during police work without resorting to deadly force. One of the two options...hmmm...which one seems more reasonable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
Or alternatively one could restrain a dog when asking a stranger to come into your house.

We had case were the police shot a dog in a cage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:23:58 PM
We had case were the police shot a dog in a cage.

We had case where police raped all the women and stole everything in the house.  So what?

It's not my impression that getting charged by a dog when responding to a request for help is a daily occurence.  Maybe you guys know better than me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 14, 2015, 02:31:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:28:54 PM

It's not my impression that getting charged by a dog when responding to a request for help is a daily occurence.  Maybe you guys know better than me.

My position that the police should not pull out guns are start blasting away inside a house when a dog reacts to them being there is not dependent on how often that occurs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:33:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 14, 2015, 02:31:06 PM
My position that the police should not pull out guns are start blasting away inside a house when a dog reacts to them being there is not dependent on how often that occurs.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:23:58 PM
We had case were the police shot a dog in a cage.

We had case where police raped all the women and stole everything in the house.  So what?

It's not my impression that getting charged by a dog when responding to a request for help is a daily occurence.  Maybe you guys know better than me.

I think you have the wrong impression  then.  Dogs are pretty common, and typical behavior involves barking at strangers and even running up to them.  I would suggest that being barked at or even approached by a dog on personal property is a daily occurrence.  Police who respond inappropriately to this (by shooting), probably shouldn't be police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 02:39:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:23:58 PM
We had case were the police shot a dog in a cage.

We had case where police raped all the women and stole everything in the house.  So what?

It's not my impression that getting charged by a dog when responding to a request for help is a daily occurence.  Maybe you guys know better than me.

I think you have the wrong impression  then.  Dogs are pretty common, and typical behavior involves barking at strangers and even running up to them.  I would suggest that being barked at or even approached by a dog on personal property is a daily occurrence.  Police who respond inappropriately to this (by shooting), probably shouldn't be police.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 14, 2015, 02:44:03 PM
What he needed is more shooting practice. If you shoot the dog and miss, the dog can still bite you, and worse, it will continue to bark!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:48:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 02:35:29 PM
I think you have the wrong impression  then.  Dogs are pretty common, and typical behavior involves barking at strangers and even running up to them.  I would suggest that being barked at or even approached by a dog on personal property is a daily occurrence.  Police who respond inappropriately to this (by shooting), probably shouldn't be police.

If you want to suggest that getting charged by a dog is a daily occurrence, go ahead and suggest that too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 14, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 14, 2015, 02:44:03 PM
What he needed is more shooting practice. If you shoot the dog and miss, the dog can still bite you, and worse, it will continue to bark!

Probably even louder than before!  :hmm:

Anyway, I bet that dog was reaching for a gun.  :P

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 14, 2015, 02:49:38 PM
I bet the dog was black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:48:22 PM
If you want to suggest that getting charged by a dog is a daily occurrence, go ahead and suggest that too.

Dude it is a dog. Are you confusing it with a bull?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:58:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 02:53:36 PM
Dude it is a dog. Are you confusing it with a bull?

No, I understood it was a dog.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 02:58:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 02:53:36 PM
Dude it is a dog. Are you confusing it with a bull?

No, I understood it was a dog.

Ok well then I am confused by your response to this. Sure if one was charged by a bull that would indeed be an strange occurrence worthy of a panicked response. But a dog? I mean dogs are everywhere. How can interacting with one not be an everyday occurrence?

This better be one huge and ferocious dog. I mean Michael Vick's fighting dogs better have nothing on this thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 03:23:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 03:14:46 PM
Ok well then I am confused by your response to this. Has a dog never run in your direction before?

Several dogs have "run in my direction" before.  Most of them were friendly and wanted to sniff my crotch and jump up on me.  A few were less friendly and were brought up short by a chain or a fence.

The article said the dog charged.  We can discuss a reasonable response by a cop to a charging dog.  We can discuss whether charging dogs pose a threat to humans.  We can discuss whether the article is mischaracterizing the dog's actions.  But there's no reason to jump over those issues and pretend the cop shot a dog that was trying to lick him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2015, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2015, 03:23:57 PM
But there's no reason to jump over those issues and pretend the cop shot a dog that was trying to lick him.

Who is pretending that? I presumed the dog was running at him going apeshit and barking like a helion. Because that is what dogs do when strangers enter their turf. As a cop you are going to be entering lots of dogs' turf.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 14, 2015, 04:12:46 PM
It's a bit difficult to decipher the intentions of a dog.  If a cop shoots every dog that charges at him in an emergency situation then he's going shoot a lot of dogs.  It'd be a real bummer if a family evacuates the house due to a fire only to have an officer on the scene shoot the dog because it charged him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 19, 2015, 06:14:17 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-boy-6-accidentally-shoots-kills-brother-3-203351585.html

QuoteChicago boy, 6, accidentally shoots, kills brother, 3

A Chicago man has been charged with child endangerment after his three-year-old son was shot and killed by his six-year-old brother while the two were playing "cops and robbers," police said on Sunday.

The six-year-old found the loaded revolver on top of the refrigerator and shot little brother Eian Santiago in the head on Saturday evening, according to police and the Cook County Medical Examiner's office. The older brother's name was not disclosed.

The boys' father, Michael Santiago, 25, was arrested and charged with child endangerment, a felony, police said. He appeared in court on Sunday and is being held on a $75,000 bond, according to DNAinfo.com Chicago, a local news web site.

"He was a beautiful kid. It's real crazy," the grandfather, Israel LaSalle, said in a tearful interview on CLTV, a local television station. "That's why parents should never have guns in the house."

The shooting happened at about 9:05 p.m. CDT (1405 GMT) on the city's northwest side. The three-year-old was carried by a family member a block away to Norwegian American Hospital, and then transported to Mount Sinai Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead shortly before midnight, officials said.

Michael Santiago told police he was a former member of the Spanish Cobras street gang and had purchased the gun from a gang member for protection, said police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi.

At the bond hearing, Cook County Assistant State's Attorney Joseph DiBella said the shooting happened when the children were in the care of their grandfather while Santiago was at work and his wife was at the store with a younger child, age one, according to DNAinfo.com.

Santiago had shown the six-year-old the gun a week before, telling him it was only for adults, DiBella said, according to the web site. The gun had been wrapped in pajama pants.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
Well, no, that is NOT why parents should not have guns in the house, that is why adults should not leave loaded revolvers on the fridge.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
Well, no, that is NOT why parents should not have guns in the house, that is why adults should not leave loaded revolvers on the fridge.

Well, it was wrapped in pajama pants. That's almost like a trigger lock, right?  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
Well, no, that is NOT why parents should not have guns in the house, that is why adults should not leave loaded revolvers on the fridge.

Well, it was wrapped in pajama pants. That's almost like a trigger lock, right?  ;)

:P

This is one of those things that annoys me about the gun control crowd (which normally I include myself in...).

A gun in the house is certainly dangerous. It results in lots of people getting killed.

But in nearly every case, that is a direct result of someone being a moron, and not securing said weapon in what any of us would consider a reasonable manner.

Now, you can certainly argue that we know that there is basically a very high probability that given widespread gun ownership, some people will be morons, and hence we will have some rate of innocent people getting killed as a result, therefore pointing out that these kinds of injuries/deaths are completely avoidable maybe isn't so important.

However, we don't apply that same calculus to other deadly things that kill and injure lots and lots of people - some of which are actually MUCH harder to properly secure. Why not?

If we are really concerned about things that homeowners optionally have that result in lots of injuries and deaths, the backyard pool is vastly more dangerous than a gun, statistically. And what is more, a pool is a LOT harder to properly secure such that the danger from it can be reduced to almost nothing.

I am confident that if I chose to keep a gun in my house, I could do so in a manner that would make it almost completely safe for my family. Certainly a lower danger level than any number of other items in the house - simply locking it up in a gun safe reduces it's potential for accidently injuring someone to a lower level than any number of other potential items in my home.

However, my pool? That is nearly impossible to make safer. It is dangerous, and there is very little I can do to make it less dangerous. Yet nobody freaks out about me having a pool in my backyard, we just know that there is a danger there, try to be mindful of it, but basically accept the risk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on October 19, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
QuoteA Chicago man has been charged with child endangerment after his three-year-old son was shot and killed by his six-year-old brother while the two were playing "cops and robbers," police said on Sunday.
The excessive use of force by police has even found its way into children's games.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 09:39:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
Well, no, that is NOT why parents should not have guns in the house, that is why adults should not leave loaded revolvers on the fridge.

Well, it was wrapped in pajama pants. That's almost like a trigger lock, right?  ;)

:P

This is one of those things that annoys me about the gun control crowd (which normally I include myself in...).

A gun in the house is certainly dangerous. It results in lots of people getting killed.

But in nearly every case, that is a direct result of someone being a moron, and not securing said weapon in what any of us would consider a reasonable manner.

Now, you can certainly argue that we know that there is basically a very high probability that given widespread gun ownership, some people will be morons, and hence we will have some rate of innocent people getting killed as a result, therefore pointing out that these kinds of injuries/deaths are completely avoidable maybe isn't so important.

However, we don't apply that same calculus to other deadly things that kill and injure lots and lots of people - some of which are actually MUCH harder to properly secure. Why not?

If we are really concerned about things that homeowners optionally have that result in lots of injuries and deaths, the backyard pool is vastly more dangerous than a gun, statistically. And what is more, a pool is a LOT harder to properly secure such that the danger from it can be reduced to almost nothing.

I am confident that if I chose to keep a gun in my house, I could do so in a manner that would make it almost completely safe for my family. Certainly a lower danger level than any number of other items in the house - simply locking it up in a gun safe reduces it's potential for accidently injuring someone to a lower level than any number of other potential items in my home.

However, my pool? That is nearly impossible to make safer. It is dangerous, and there is very little I can do to make it less dangerous. Yet nobody freaks out about me having a pool in my backyard, we just know that there is a danger there, try to be mindful of it, but basically accept the risk.

While I basically agree, I'd not push the analogy too far - after all, no-one can steal your pool and go on a drowning rampage with it.  ;)

It is entirely true that responsible people can, and do, keep guns securely. The problem is that there are so very many irresponsible people, and the social and legal effort to force responsibility on the irresponsibe has yet to be made. Perhaps an analogy here is to car safety - things like seatbelt use and drunk driving rates have been driven up and down, respectively, but it took a huge amount of social and legal pressure to do it.

The main problem in the US, I suspect, is that the issue has become so politicized and polarized that any such effort is effectively impossible. There is little social resistance to seatbelt and drunk-driving enforcement by car owners fearful that this is just a first step to removng car driving rights altogether ...   :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:48:10 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 09:39:01 AM

While I basically agree, I'd not push the analogy too far - after all, no-one can steal your pool and go on a drowning rampage with it.  ;)

True - but I actually don't think there is a very compelling argument to be made that we should restrict guns because of the egregiously high rate of well secured guns being stolen and used in crimes. Frankly, in the US, getting a gun by breaking into someone's house and stealing it is a lot more trouble than it is worth.

I am sure that as a result of burglary where they are looking for anything valuable, criminals do in fact steal guns, but I rather doubt that is specifically what they are going after.

Quote

It is entirely true that responsible people can, and do, keep guns securely. The problem is that there are so very many irresponsible people, and the social and legal effort to force responsibility on the irresponsibe has yet to be made. Perhaps an analogy here is to car safety - things like seatbelt use and drunk driving rates have been driven up and down, respectively, but it took a huge amount of social and legal pressure to do it.

Agreed - and we should in fact apply that pressure.

But part of the problem is that the gun control crowd has their nutjobs as well, and for them, any suggestion that a gun can possibly be owned in a responsible manner is anathema - it is all straight up "Owning a gun is more likely to kill you than ever save you!" when in fact that is a rather ridiculous statistic, since it is so trivially simple and without nuance as to be nearly useless.

Quote
The main problem in the US, I suspect, is that the issue has become so politicized and polarized that any such effort is effectively impossible. There is little social resistance to seatbelt and drunk-driving enforcement by car owners fearful that this is just a first step to removng car driving rights altogether ...   :D

Indeed - which is why we need the sane people, on both sides, to start talking about actual possible steps to reduce gun violence and accidents. And both sides need to start ignoring the nutjobs in their midst if there is ever ANY hope of making any progress at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 09:57:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:48:10 AM


True - but I actually don't think there is a very compelling argument to be made that we should restrict guns because of the egregiously high rate of well secured guns being stolen and used in crimes. Frankly, in the US, getting a gun by breaking into someone's house and stealing it is a lot more trouble than it is worth.

I am sure that as a result of burglary where they are looking for anything valuable, criminals do in fact steal guns, but I rather doubt that is specifically what they are going after.

True - I suspect the bigger concern is mentally unstable family members stealing one's guns and going on a rampage (as happened in the Sandy Hook massacre), or kiddies stealing them and shooting someone (as happened in the above story), than burglars.

Quote
Agreed - and we should in fact apply that pressure.

But part of the problem is that the gun control crowd has their nutjobs as well, and for them, any suggestion that a gun can possibly be owned in a responsible manner is anathema - it is all straight up "Owning a gun is more likely to kill you than ever save you!" when in fact that is a rather ridiculous statistic, since it is so trivially simple and without nuance as to be nearly useless.

The additional problem is that the gun nuts aren't totally crazy to see responsible measures as a cat's-paw. I think a lot of gun opponents would like to see them used in exactly that manner. An analogy here is to anti-smoking measures, which have the clear intent of gradually eliminating smoking altogether.

Quote
Indeed - which is why we need the sane people, on both sides, to start talking about actual possible steps to reduce gun violence and accidents. And both sides need to start ignoring the nutjobs in their midst if there is ever ANY hope of making any progress at all.

Yup.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 19, 2015, 10:47:15 AM
Of course if you do lock your gun away and leave it unloaded and so forth it is pretty much useless for home defense. Anybody who uses it for home defense is going to leave it someplace, ready to use, where they can get to it quickly. Which is why I will never have a gun at home. Even if I decide I want to take up some kind of sport that involves guns they will not be stored at my house.

Also the problem with the gun control nutjobs is that the Supreme Court has already ruled against them. They need to think practically at this point what can actually be done.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 19, 2015, 10:47:15 AM
Of course if you do lock your gun away and leave it unloaded and so forth it is pretty much useless for home defense. Anybody who uses it for home defense is going to leave it someplace, ready to use, where they can get to it quickly. Which is why I will never have a gun at home. Even if I decide I want to take up some kind of sport that involves guns they will not be stored at my house.

I don't understand this claim.

It seems patently false. You don't have to have your gun locked in a vault. Just secured in a location that only you can get to, but children cannot. A simple gun safe/locked security box will do that, and allow the weapon to be accessible within a few moments.

Throw on a trigger lock for good measure, and there you go.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:48:10 AM
But part of the problem is that the gun control crowd has their nutjobs as well, and for them, any suggestion that a gun can possibly be owned in a responsible manner is anathema - it is all straight up "Owning a gun is more likely to kill you than ever save you!" when in fact that is a rather ridiculous statistic, since it is so trivially simple and without nuance as to be nearly useless.
How is the former related to the latter?  And how is the latter misleading?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 19, 2015, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 19, 2015, 10:47:15 AM
Of course if you do lock your gun away and leave it unloaded and so forth it is pretty much useless for home defense. Anybody who uses it for home defense is going to leave it someplace, ready to use, where they can get to it quickly. Which is why I will never have a gun at home. Even if I decide I want to take up some kind of sport that involves guns they will not be stored at my house.

I don't understand this claim.

It seems patently false. You don't have to have your gun locked in a vault. Just secured in a location that only you can get to, but children cannot. A simple gun safe/locked security box will do that, and allow the weapon to be accessible within a few moments.

Throw on a trigger lock for good measure, and there you go.

Having to go to a gun locker, unlock the gun (either by fumbling with a combination, or trying to find the key), then again having to remove the trigger lock, will take many seconds which you probably don't have if you need it for self-defence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 02:39:29 PM
A safe or a simple combo lock gun box should be enough to secure a gun properly. Proper gun safety training for everyone in the home including the children also is a must. The gun can be loaded and chambered at all times and still be safe if in a holster and either on the person or locked.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 19, 2015, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 02:39:29 PM
A safe or a simple combo lock gun box should be enough to secure a gun properly. Proper gun safety training for everyone in the home including the children also is a must. The gun can be loaded and chambered at all times and still be safe if in a holster and either on the person or locked.

I disagree.  A gun should never be stored while loaded.  All it takes is one time forgetting to lock up the gun and a child can get their hands on a lethal weapon.

You always want it that it would take multiple mistakes before leading to a tragedy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 02:45:57 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2015, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 19, 2015, 10:47:15 AM
Of course if you do lock your gun away and leave it unloaded and so forth it is pretty much useless for home defense. Anybody who uses it for home defense is going to leave it someplace, ready to use, where they can get to it quickly. Which is why I will never have a gun at home. Even if I decide I want to take up some kind of sport that involves guns they will not be stored at my house.

I don't understand this claim.

It seems patently false. You don't have to have your gun locked in a vault. Just secured in a location that only you can get to, but children cannot. A simple gun safe/locked security box will do that, and allow the weapon to be accessible within a few moments.

Throw on a trigger lock for good measure, and there you go.

Having to go to a gun locker, unlock the gun (either by fumbling with a combination, or trying to find the key), then again having to remove the trigger lock, will take many seconds which you probably don't have if you need it for self-defence.

I don't agree at all. Yes, there could be a circumstance where the utility is wasted if you cannot get to it within a few moments, but I suspect the majority of plausible circumstances allows for a reasonable amount of time (a minute or so) to secure a weapon from a secure location. Say your typical home burglary scenario, where an intruder is trying to break in in some not incredibly obvious fashion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 02:46:46 PM
Well then, don't forget to lock it then. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:48:10 AM
But part of the problem is that the gun control crowd has their nutjobs as well, and for them, any suggestion that a gun can possibly be owned in a responsible manner is anathema - it is all straight up "Owning a gun is more likely to kill you than ever save you!" when in fact that is a rather ridiculous statistic, since it is so trivially simple and without nuance as to be nearly useless.
How is the former related to the latter?  And how is the latter misleading?

It is misleading because it is a general statistic that is so broad that it is not useful to evaluate a reasonable persons risk in owning a weapon.

For example, the story listed means nothing to me and my choice - I would never, ever leave a loaded revolver on top of the fridge, hence the fact that this tragedy occurred means nothing at all to me when it comes to evaluating my own risk in having a weapon in the house.

Similarly, I am 100% confident that I will never shoot myself or someone in my family, hence the risk of me committing suicide or being a murder-suicide victim/perpetrator, is for me, zero.

If I had a gun, I would never leave it anywhere my children could reasonable get to it, and the vast majority of times some kid accidently shoots someone, it turns out that the owner is an idiot who didn't secure their weapon. Again, not applicable to me.

Which isn't to say that there is no risk, but it is to say that the overall statistics are not illuminating towards evaluating a particular individual level of risk.

It is like the oft cited statistic that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Does that mean YOUR marriage is 50-50? Of course not. There are so many obvious risk factors involved that it is silly to say that - the risk is radically higher or lower based on your demographic group.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 02:52:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2015, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 02:39:29 PM
A safe or a simple combo lock gun box should be enough to secure a gun properly. Proper gun safety training for everyone in the home including the children also is a must. The gun can be loaded and chambered at all times and still be safe if in a holster and either on the person or locked.

I disagree.  A gun should never be stored while loaded.  All it takes is one time forgetting to lock up the gun and a child can get their hands on a lethal weapon.

You always want it that it would take multiple mistakes before leading to a tragedy.

That I agree with - multiple levels of checks are important, and there is no particular utility in keeping the weapon loaded - it can be loaded as needed.

All this, of course, depends on your own personal situation, risk, and who else is in the house of course. But in general, I cannot really imagine a circumstance under which the benefit of keeping a weapon loaded outweigh the risk that go along with it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 19, 2015, 03:03:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:48:10 AM
But part of the problem is that the gun control crowd has their nutjobs as well, and for them, any suggestion that a gun can possibly be owned in a responsible manner is anathema - it is all straight up "Owning a gun is more likely to kill you than ever save you!" when in fact that is a rather ridiculous statistic, since it is so trivially simple and without nuance as to be nearly useless.
How is the former related to the latter?  And how is the latter misleading?

It is misleading because it is a general statistic that is so broad that it is not useful to evaluate a reasonable persons risk in owning a weapon.

For example, the story listed means nothing to me and my choice - I would never, ever leave a loaded revolver on top of the fridge, hence the fact that this tragedy occurred means nothing at all to me when it comes to evaluating my own risk in having a weapon in the house.

Similarly, I am 100% confident that I will never shoot myself or someone in my family, hence the risk of me committing suicide or being a murder-suicide victim/perpetrator, is for me, zero.

If I had a gun, I would never leave it anywhere my children could reasonable get to it, and the vast majority of times some kid accidently shoots someone, it turns out that the owner is an idiot who didn't secure their weapon. Again, not applicable to me.

Which isn't to say that there is no risk, but it is to say that the overall statistics are not illuminating towards evaluating a particular individual level of risk.

It is like the oft cited statistic that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Does that mean YOUR marriage is 50-50? Of course not. There are so many obvious risk factors involved that it is silly to say that - the risk is radically higher or lower based on your demographic group.

There's a lot of "nevers" in there that you can not definitely say won't happen.  I imagine that the people who thought their kid could "never" get a hold of the gun and shoot themselves told themselves the same thing.  I doubt any parent bought a gun and said "gee, there is a 10% chance little Timmy will accidently shoot his neighbor with this, but lets just take that risk".  I think you might be guilty of confirmation bias.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Doesn't that hypothetical apply to everyone on this board, though?  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: frunk on October 19, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Do you have to conceal carry inside your own house, and what if you don't wear pajamas?  Are there flesh colored concealing holsters?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: frunk on October 19, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Do you have to conceal carry inside your own house, and what if you don't wear pajamas?  Are there flesh colored concealing holsters?

Either that, or ... walk really funny.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Doesn't that hypothetical apply to everyone on this board, though?  :P

:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 09:48:10 AM
But part of the problem is that the gun control crowd has their nutjobs as well, and for them, any suggestion that a gun can possibly be owned in a responsible manner is anathema - it is all straight up "Owning a gun is more likely to kill you than ever save you!" when in fact that is a rather ridiculous statistic, since it is so trivially simple and without nuance as to be nearly useless.
How is the former related to the latter?  And how is the latter misleading?

It is misleading because it is a general statistic that is so broad that it is not useful to evaluate a reasonable persons risk in owning a weapon.

For example, the story listed means nothing to me and my choice - I would never, ever leave a loaded revolver on top of the fridge, hence the fact that this tragedy occurred means nothing at all to me when it comes to evaluating my own risk in having a weapon in the house.

Similarly, I am 100% confident that I will never shoot myself or someone in my family, hence the risk of me committing suicide or being a murder-suicide victim/perpetrator, is for me, zero.

If I had a gun, I would never leave it anywhere my children could reasonable get to it, and the vast majority of times some kid accidently shoots someone, it turns out that the owner is an idiot who didn't secure their weapon. Again, not applicable to me.

Which isn't to say that there is no risk, but it is to say that the overall statistics are not illuminating towards evaluating a particular individual level of risk.

It is like the oft cited statistic that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Does that mean YOUR marriage is 50-50? Of course not. There are so many obvious risk factors involved that it is silly to say that - the risk is radically higher or lower based on your demographic group.
Fair enough, but you can go too far the other way.  You may think that you're more different from the average than you really are.  It's the other drivers that are idiots, you'll never cause an accident.  I don't know how many people think "I may shoot myself one day, let's see how it goes", or "I don't want to fly into homicidal rage today and kill my family, but I like to keep my options open", or "My son may be clever enough to get to my gun, but oh well, whatever happens happens".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:27:52 PM
Quote from: frunk on October 19, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Do you have to conceal carry inside your own house, and what if you don't wear pajamas?  Are there flesh colored concealing holsters?

No. Use a belt for the holster only (or walk funny). I guess there are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Doesn't that hypothetical apply to everyone on this board, though?  :P

:hmm:

ISIS wants to kill each and every one of us infidels, and I assume the Chinese have stolen all our identity data by now.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:30:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
BTW, if ISIS tells you that they want to kill you, and the Chinese have stolen all your identity info including your address: would you conceal carry a loaded gun in your house while wearing pajamas? Just a hypothetical.

Doesn't that hypothetical apply to everyone on this board, though?  :P

:hmm:

ISIS wants to kill each and every one of us infidels, and I assume the Chinese have stolen all our identity data by now.  ;)

True, but there are levels of threaths. They do want to kills all infidels, but they have also stated they want to kill military infedels more than civilian infidels.
And it has been confirmed that Gov employee's ID has been hacked.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:33:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM

Fair enough, but you can go too far the other way.  You may think that you're more different from the average than you really are.  It's the other drivers that are idiots, you'll never cause an accident.  I don't know how many people think "I may shoot myself one day, let's see how it goes", or "I don't want to fly into homicidal rage today and kill my family, but I like to keep my options open", or "My son may be clever enough to get to my gun, but oh well, whatever happens happens".

As an aside, I'm kinda amazed I survived childhood - by today's standards, pretty well everything my family did was horribly, absurdly dangerous. From leaving shotguns and shells lying around in the cabin, to storing old dinamite in the outhouse (used for blowing stumps), through us kids riding in the back of the pickup truck down the highway (because mom wanted to smoke in the cab  :lol: ).

It was truly a different time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:34:31 PM
... why are we talking about gun control in the police violence thread instead of the multiple gun control threads we've had?  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:35:37 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:33:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM

Fair enough, but you can go too far the other way.  You may think that you're more different from the average than you really are.  It's the other drivers that are idiots, you'll never cause an accident.  I don't know how many people think "I may shoot myself one day, let's see how it goes", or "I don't want to fly into homicidal rage today and kill my family, but I like to keep my options open", or "My son may be clever enough to get to my gun, but oh well, whatever happens happens".

As an aside, I'm kinda amazed I survived childhood - by today's standards, pretty well everything my family did was horribly, absurdly dangerous. From leaving shotguns and shells lying around in the cabin, to storing old dinamite in the outhouse (used for blowing stumps), through us kids riding in the back of the pickup truck down the highway (because mom wanted to smoke in the cab  :lol: ).

It was truly a different time.

Bike helmets, seat belts, walking to school alone, etc... the list is endless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:35:37 PM


Bike helmets, seat belts, walking to school alone, etc... the list is endless.

We even had a set of lawn darts!  :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:39:04 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:35:37 PM


Bike helmets, seat belts, walking to school alone, etc... the list is endless.

We even had a set of lawn darts!  :D

I loved those things! :yeah:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 03:51:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM

Fair enough, but you can go too far the other way.  You may think that you're more different from the average than you really are.  It's the other drivers that are idiots, you'll never cause an accident.  I don't know how many people think "I may shoot myself one day, let's see how it goes", or "I don't want to fly into homicidal rage today and kill my family, but I like to keep my options open", or "My son may be clever enough to get to my gun, but oh well, whatever happens happens".

I think the people who leave their loaded revolvers on their refrigerator for their 6 year old to find don't think about it at all.

If you ARE thinking about it, you probably already way down on the risk scale.

Of course you can think you are not part of a overall group, but that just means you are doing a bad job of self evaluation. The point remains that stats that are based on overly broad groups are poor ways of assessing the risk for specific people.

My cousin got married a couple years ago. He had just entered the army at 18, and married his childhood girlfriend. He was stationed across the country, and he was so sure they were totally in love and could overcome any difficiulties, and getting married shortly after she graduated from high school and then both of them moving away from home to a military base while figuring out how to live with another human being would all work out fine.

Of course he is divorced now. And we all told him, as gently as we could, when he was going into this that the odds were radically stacked against him - that marriages like his almost never work out. Sometimes they do, of course.

But going into the marriage, do I think he had a 50-50 shot? Nope. I thought 9 out of 10 of those marriages are doomed, and my best hope for him was that he doesn't get her pregnant first. Luckily they did not, and hopefully he (and she) have learned something.

But the point here is that stats that are measured against incredibly braod groups are terrible indicators when in fact we know that we can narrow down our group immensely. The danger of a gun in the home with reasonably self aware and conscientious owners is not zero of course, but it is also almost certainly NOT in the range of "ZOMG YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO KILL SOMEONE YOU LOVE THAN EVER PROTECT YOUSELF!" level that is reflected in these kinds of stories.

I would be much more convinced by a story where a reasonably careful gun owner had a tragic result than stories where a clearly irresponsible and idiotic person has a tragic result.

And like I said, nobody applies that same metric to other dangerous, optional items we routinely have in our homes, like pools or trampolines. How many kids are killed in backyard pools every year?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 19, 2015, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2015, 03:33:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM

Fair enough, but you can go too far the other way.  You may think that you're more different from the average than you really are.  It's the other drivers that are idiots, you'll never cause an accident.  I don't know how many people think "I may shoot myself one day, let's see how it goes", or "I don't want to fly into homicidal rage today and kill my family, but I like to keep my options open", or "My son may be clever enough to get to my gun, but oh well, whatever happens happens".

As an aside, I'm kinda amazed I survived childhood - by today's standards, pretty well everything my family did was horribly, absurdly dangerous. From leaving shotguns and shells lying around in the cabin, to storing old dinamite in the outhouse (used for blowing stumps), through us kids riding in the back of the pickup truck down the highway (because mom wanted to smoke in the cab  :lol: ).

It was truly a different time.

I shudder to think of the result if we had ever been in a bad car accident. 5 kids, 2 adults, and zero seatbelts. They probably could not have told where one mangled body ended and the next began....
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on October 19, 2015, 03:58:55 PM
Add to that, huge heavy cars with barely any crumple zones. I imagine some were ejected a pretty far distance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 02, 2015, 06:41:53 PM
A punishment, well deserved.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/02/los-angeles-jail-beating-sheriff-deputy-convicted

Quote
Associated Press in Los Angeles

Monday 2 November 2015 22.01 GMT  Last modified on Monday 2 November 2015 22.03 GMT 

A former Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy was sentenced Monday to eight years in federal prison for supervising the backroom beating of a jail visitor who fellow guards testified was handcuffed on the ground and covered in blood.


US district judge George King ordered former sergeant Eric Gonzalez taken into custody immediately.

Gonzalez, a 15-year veteran of the sheriff's department, was found guilty in June of deprivation of civil rights, conspiracy to violate constitutional rights and falsification of records in the 2011 beating of Gabriel Carrillo. Four other deputies have been convicted in the case and await sentencing, while a fifth was indicted in the case last month.

The convictions in Carrillo's beating are part of a federal investigation of civil rights abuses and corruption at the nation's largest sheriff's department.


Nearly two dozen members of the department, including the former second-in-command, have been charged with crimes ranging from beatings to obstruction of justice.


Prosecutors said Gonzalez, the ranking deputy, supervised Carrillo's "savage beating" in a break room at the Men's Central jail in downtown Los Angeles on 26 February 2011.

Deputies stopped Carrillo, who was at the jail to visit his brother, because he had a cellphone, which is prohibited. The beating began, prosecutors say, when a handcuffed Carrillo commented to a deputy that if he weren't restrained, "it would be a different story".

As Gonzalez watched, deputies threw Carrillo against a refrigerator, took him to the ground, repeatedly punched and kicked him, and pepper sprayed his face. Carrillo was then charged with battery on a custodial officer, resisting and attempted escape during a lawful detention – charges that were later dropped.

Los Angeles County paid Carrillo $1.2m to drop a civil rights lawsuit stemming from the beating.


Federal prosecutors argued that Gonzalez be sentenced to 11 years in prison, saying he abused his position of power and that the case has eroded public trust.

"An aggravated assault with serious bodily injuries is a grave offense," prosecutors wrote. "When such a crime is undertaken by a gang of law enforcement and then covered up as if the victim committed the crime, the harm to important societal interests makes the crime all the more significant."

Gonzalez's attorneys argued for a prison sentence between 24 and 30 months, saying Gonzalez is a good man who worked in a dangerous environment where it's difficult to always get it right.

County jails "are saturated with dangerous and unpredictable individuals", his attorneys wrote. "The fact that deputies occasionally err on the side of using too much force to 'take down' suspects, while not acceptable, is perhaps inevitable given the violent and dangerous milieu in which they work and risk their lives."

Gonzalez already has lost his job, his reputation has been tarnished, and he'll probably never find another job in law enforcement, his attorneys wrote.

"This single mistake in a career characterized by truly excellent public service need not result in a protracted term of incarceration," they wrote. "This case calls for a sentence which, while punitive, allows him to return home to his wife before too much time has passed so he can retool and try to rebuild something out of his life."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on November 04, 2015, 12:29:45 PM
Cop killer shot dead by police:  http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/us/fox-lake-illinois-police-officer-joe-gliniewicz/.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 04, 2015, 12:40:41 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2015, 12:29:45 PM
Cop killer shot dead by police:  http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/us/fox-lake-illinois-police-officer-joe-gliniewicz/.

hah ha. you very funny guy
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on November 04, 2015, 05:44:46 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 02, 2015, 06:41:53 PM


Gonzalez already has lost his job, his reputation has been tarnished, and he’ll probably never find another job in law enforcement, his attorneys wrote.



Well, let's fucking hope not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 04, 2015, 06:42:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2015, 12:29:45 PM
Cop killer shot dead by police:  http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/us/fox-lake-illinois-police-officer-joe-gliniewicz/.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DontSayBanana on November 05, 2015, 02:57:45 AM
Quote from: dps on November 04, 2015, 05:44:46 PM
Well, let's fucking hope not.

Thankfully, in this day and age, it's a little harder to gloss over a 5-8 year stint in prison during interviews.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 05, 2015, 04:00:21 AM
:weep::weep::weep:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/louisiana-cops-kill-6-year-old-boy-after-car-chase-n457401

Quote

Police in Louisiana shot and killed a 6-year-old boy Tuesday after opening fire on a car during a nighttime chase, authorities said.

The boy's father, who was at the wheel, was also hit, and was hospitalized in critical condition, authorities said.

The shooting unfolded at 9:30 p.m. CT, after officers in the city of Marksville opened fire at the conclusion of the chase, state police said.

The state police did not explain the reason for the chase, or the circumstances that caused the officers to shoot at the car.

Local NBC affiliate WDSU reported that the car backed into the officers on a dead-end street.

The station quoted the Avoyelles Parish coroner's office as saying the boy was accidentally shot by the officers.

The office identified the boy as Jeremy David Mardis and said he was shot five times in the head and chest. His father was identified as Chris Few.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 06, 2015, 04:38:30 PM
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-cadet-turns-cop-turning-body-cam-pummeling-victim/

QuoteAlbuquerque, NM — One of Albuquerque's finest was arrested Friday afternoon after he was caught turning his body camera off to beat a man during a service call.

Officer Cedric Greer, 24, was arrested by New Mexico State Police after video evidence showed him turn his lapel cam off just before beating a man, then turning it back on afterward. According to the report, the video shows his finger reaching for the camera to turn it off.

Witnesses to the assault say that Greer acted without being provoked and that the victim complied with all orders both before and after the attack.

State police issued a statement Friday stating that Greer "battered an individual during a call for service that he was conducting at a local Albuquerque hotel. He struck the individual's head several times with a closed fist and then delivered several strikes to the individual's chest causing bruising.  Witnesses claimed the individual was cooperative with Mr. Greer before and after the battery."

Greer was arrested for misdemeanor aggravated battery because a police cadet turned him in after witnessing the incident.

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-cadet-turns-cop-turning-body-cam-pummeling-victim/#CmQEEClbhO8odbF9.99
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on November 07, 2015, 01:32:50 AM
The two Louisiana cops were arrested tonight for killing the six year old. Simple fact--police should only fire into a car if they're being fired on from said car. Many police departments already prohibit firing into cars (except in return fire situations.) The only ones that do not are operating off of outdated theories. At one point in time it was felt that you could justifiably shoot at a car to try and kill the driver, if the car was trying to run you down. This would be a type of "self defense" and a matter of "officer safety." But they've researched/gamed this out a bit and found that the reality is it's essentially not true. It's safer for the officer to try to dodge the car and try to get somewhere that the driver can't reach them than it is to try and disable the car by shooting at the driver. Particularly because of simple physics--you can shoot a driver right through the head and his 3,000+ lb weapon can still kill you, the car doesn't immediately freeze in place if you get a kill shot on the driver, so you have to try and effect an escape of sorts either way. When you factor in many cars have wholly innocent bystanders in them, who may not be willing participants in the driver's shenanigans, it's an obvious call that you need to prohibit firing into cars in a quixotic attempt to kill the driver before he runs you over.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on November 08, 2015, 09:13:45 PM
Cops fail to put down injured bull...put down rancher instead.

QuoteRancher 'needlessly' shot by police in bull incident, family says
Published November 08, 2015FoxNews.com

An Idaho rancher was "needlessly" killed by two deputies at the scene of an accident last week, according to family members present when he was gunned down.

Jack Yantis died Nov. 1 in a murky exchange of gunfire with two Adams County deputies along a dark, open stretch of highway. Yantis had responded to the scene after one of his bulls was struck by a station wagon after sundown. This much is agreed upon: at some point, something went wrong and Yantis was killed during an incident in which he and the two deputies all fired their weapons, according to authorities.

But Yantis' wife, Donna, and nephew, Rowdy Paradis, told the Idaho Statesman on Saturday that the actions of police directly led to the death of the 62-year-old Council resident.

"In this case, I stood 10 feet away and watched two deputies escalate the situation and needlessly kill a man," Paradis told the Statesman.

The family's version of events begins with Yantis being informed of the accident around 6:45 p.m. An Adams County dispatcher told the rancher he'd have to go down to the highway and put down his 2,500-pound black Gelbvieh bull, whose leg was injured by the crash and who was becoming agitated. As Yantis was making the necessary arrangements to take care of the animal, the deputies began shooting at the bull, but failed to kill it, instead reportedly hitting it in the gut, prolonging its misery and causing the bull to become even more distressed.

Yantis finally got his .204-caliber rifle and stood about 2 feet from the bull, prepared to shoot it when "one cop turned around and grabbed [Yantis'] shoulder and jerked him backward," according to Paradis. The rifle's barrel was still pointed at the ground at this point, the family contends, though Paradis does allow that the gun may have fired, perhaps accidentally. A deputy said later that he had been grazed by a bullet, according to a family friend also present, who contends he didn't see any "blood," "torn thread" or "powder burn." The official statement on the incident also alleges that one of the deputies suffered a minor injury.

That discharge prompted the deputies to turn their guns on Yantis, shooting him in the chest and abdomen, ultimately killing him, the family said. When Donna and Paradis approached Yantis, the deputies "threw us on the middle of Highway 95, searched us and handcuffed us, and wouldn't let us go take care of Jack," Donna said. Paradis said one of the deputies pointed a gun at his head.

During the incident, Donna suffered a heart attack. She was in critical condition for several days before being upgraded to serious.

The bull was left to bleed out on the road, and police ignored their pleas to humanely kill the animal, the family said.

The deputies were wearing body cameras, Adams County Sheriff Ryan Zollman told the Statesman on Thursday, though it's unclear whether they recorded the incident. A dash camera in the deputies' vehicle was not turned on, Zollman said. The investigation is currently in the hands of the Idaho State Police.

"I'm a transparent person, I will give you the facts when I know the facts," Zollman told KTVB. "I'm not hiding anything from anybody."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on November 08, 2015, 09:43:30 PM
Looks like this story is lighting up all the militia sites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 09, 2015, 06:45:33 PM
Damn court <_<

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/11/sonia_sotomayor_dissents_in_mullenix_police_shooting_case.html

QuoteSonia Sotomayor Takes a Stand Against Police Brutality

In a stunning dissent, the justice condemns the "culture" of deadly force.

By Mark Joseph Stern

On the night of March 23, 2010, trooper Chadrin Mullenix of the Texas Department of Public Safety stood on an overpass debating what to do. Israel Leija Jr., an allegedly armed and intoxicated fugitive, was fleeing the police in a high-speed chase a few miles away. Mullenix planned to set up spike strips—but as Leija approached, Mullenix decided to shoot at his car instead, a tactic in which he had no training. His supervisor, Sgt. Robert Byrd, responded that Mullenix should "stand by" rather than shooting and "see if the spikes" laid down the road "work first."

Mullenix ignored the order and fired six shots at Leija's car as it passed underneath—seconds before the vehicle hit the spike strips designed to stop it. Four of his bullets penetrated Leija's head, shoulders, and neck. Leija was killed.

Coincidentally, Mullenix had been singled out for a pep talk earlier that very day for not being "proactive" enough on the job. When he saw his supervisor after killing Leija, Mullenix quipped: "How's that for proactive?"

Leija's mother filed a civil rights suit against Mullenix, alleging that the trooper violated her son's Fourth Amendment rights by using "unreasonable force." She had a great case: A Department of Public Safety shooting review found that Mullenix had acted recklessly, lacking "sufficient legal or factual justification to use deadly force." On Monday, however, the Supreme Court handed Mullenix a huge legal victory, holding that his actions did not violate "clearly established constitutional law" and granting him qualified immunity. The decision provides yet more evidence that the court's "unreasonable force" standard has been defanged to provide cover to reckless officers.

The case also demonstrates that when it comes to understanding the systemic flaws and violent behavior of America's criminal justice system, there's no one quite like Justice Sonia Sotomayor.

Every justice except Sotomayor, who dissented from the ruling, and Justice Antonin Scalia, who independently concurred, appears to have joined the court's brief, unsigned decision granting Mullenix immunity. (Sorry, Notorious R.B.G. groupies, but that includes Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who has a bit of a law-and-order streak.) The majority opinion provides a classic retrospective rationalization of Mullenix's actions, leaning heavily on a brief by the National Association of Police Organizations, a pro–law-enforcement lobbying group. Mullenix, the court explained, could only be denied qualified immunity if the unreasonableness of his actions were "beyond debate." The Supreme Court has repeatedly declared that officers may not use deadly force against a fleeing suspect unless he poses a "significant threat of violence," and despite what the court ruled, it's not at all obvious that Leija posed such a threat that Mullenix had to shoot at him seconds before he hit the spike strips.

But, the majority wrote on Monday, the appropriateness of deadly force "involving car chases" remains "hazy," with various circuit courts interpreting the deadly force standard differently in the car chase context. Because "qualified immunity protects actions in the hazy border between excessive and acceptable force," the court ruled, Mullenix gets the benefit of the doubt.

Scalia went even further, explaining that he "would not describe what occurred here as the application of deadly force in effecting an arrest" because Mullenix, despite shooting six bullets at the car as it passed beneath him, did not clearly intend to kill Leija. To prove his point, Scalia cites a hypothetical straight out of Looney Tunes:

It does not assist analysis to refer to all use of force that happens to kill the arrestee as the application of deadly force. The police might, for example, attempt to stop a fleeing felon's car by felling a large tree across the road; if they drop the tree too late, so that it crushes the car and its occupant, I would not call that the application of deadly force. Though it was force sufficient to kill, it was not applied with the object of harming the body of the felon.

Ultimately, it fell to Sotomayor—as it so often does—to remind her colleagues that individuals actually do have real constitutional protections against police intrusion. "This Court's precedents," Sotomayor wrote, "clearly establish that the Fourth Amendment is violated unless the 'governmental interests' in effectuating a particular kind of seizure outweigh the 'nature and quality of the intrusion on the individual's Fourth Amendment interests.' " The government certainly had a strong interest in stopping Leija—but was that interest so strong as to justify shooting Leija before he hit the spikes? Sotomayor says no, concluding that "Mullenix ignored the longstanding and well-settled Fourth Amendment rule that there must be a governmental interest not just in seizing a suspect, but in the level of force used to effectuate that seizure."

The real power of Sotomayor's opinion lies in its last paragraph, which bluntly indicts the "culture" that led to Mullenix's actions (citations removed):

When Mullenix confronted his superior officer after the shooting, his first words were, "How's that for proactive?" (Mullenix was apparently referencing an earlier counseling session in which Byrd suggested that he was not enterprising enough.) The glib comment does not impact our legal analysis; an officer's actual intentions are irrelevant to the Fourth Amendment's "objectively reasonable" inquiry. But the comment seems to me revealing of the culture this Court's decision supports when it calls it reasonable—or even reasonably reasonable—to use deadly force for no discernible gain and over a supervisor's express order to "stand by." By sanctioning a "shoot first, think later" approach to policing, the Court renders the protections of the Fourth Amendment hollow.

This stirring passage could easily have been delivered at an anti–police violence protest. That it was penned by a Supreme Court justice only adds to its intensity. As my colleague Leon Neyfakh recently wrote, courts have been whittling down constitutional protections against police violence for decades. That fact seems suddenly relevant in the face of seemingly endless police shootings. In her dissent Monday, Sotomayor took a courageous stand against such violence, directly indicting "shoot first, think later" police culture. Her words couldn't vindicate Leija's constitutional rights. But they'll send a clear message to police violence protestors that they have at least one ally on the highest court in the land.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
Interesting that Slate calls out the comment by the officer about proactivity given that it also then notes in the quote that Sotomayor dismissed that comment as having any relevance to her legal analysis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:09:30 PM
Anyway, as a non-lawyer, I'm not sure I take issue with this description at the end of the decision.

QuoteFinally, respondents argue that the danger Leija represented
was less substantial than the threats that courts
have found sufficient to justify deadly force. But the mere
fact that courts have approved deadly force in more extreme
circumstances says little, if anything, about whether
such force was reasonable in the circumstances here.
The fact is that when Mullenix fired, he reasonably understood
Leija to be a fugitive fleeing arrest, at speeds over
100 miles per hour, who was armed and possibly intoxicated,
who had threatened to kill any officer he saw if the
police did not abandon their pursuit, and who was racing
towards Officer Ducheneaux's position. Even accepting
that these circumstances fall somewhere between the two
sets of cases respondents discuss, qualified immunity
protects actions in the "'hazy border between excessive
and acceptable force.'"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2015, 07:12:25 PM
QuoteIsrael Leija Jr., an allegedly armed and intoxicated fugitive, was fleeing the police in a high-speed chase a few miles away.

Allegedly armed and allegedly intoxicated?  Didn't they search the car after he was killed?  Didn't they perform a postmortem bload analysis?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:16:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2015, 07:12:25 PM
QuoteIsrael Leija Jr., an allegedly armed and intoxicated fugitive, was fleeing the police in a high-speed chase a few miles away.

Allegedly armed and allegedly intoxicated?  Didn't they search the car after he was killed?  Didn't they perform a postmortem bload analysis?

I think the allegedly is just with the armed. Haven't seen anything yet that definitively says he had a gun (just that he told cops he had one and was going to shoot cops with it) but saw that he was determined to have alcohol and cocaine in his system.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2015, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:16:50 PM
I think the allegedly is just with the armed. Haven't seen anything yet that definitively says he had a gun (just that he told cops he had one and was going to shoot cops with it) but saw that he was determined to have alcohol and cocaine in his system.

If he said he had a gun then tossed it during the chase and it has not been found, then the article should say he was suspected of being armed.  An allegation is an as-yet unproven accusation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on November 10, 2015, 01:10:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2015, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:16:50 PM
I think the allegedly is just with the armed. Haven't seen anything yet that definitively says he had a gun (just that he told cops he had one and was going to shoot cops with it) but saw that he was determined to have alcohol and cocaine in his system.

If he said he had a gun then tossed it during the chase and it has not been found, then the article should say he was suspected of being armed.  An allegation is an as-yet unproven accusation.

I believe it's standard journalist procedure to refer to all crimes as "alleged" until that person has been convicted.  It does result in some odd moments such as a when a school shooter dies in a gun fight with the police but due to his lack of conviction he is always "the alleged shooter" even though it's blindly obvious that the he committed the crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 10, 2015, 02:06:53 AM
It is also Slate, so I wouldn't get too hung up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 10, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
Interesting that Slate calls out the comment by the officer about proactivity given that it also then notes in the quote that Sotomayor dismissed that comment as having any relevance to her legal analysis.

Wow, you really managed to miss the point, didn't you?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 10, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 10, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
Interesting that Slate calls out the comment by the officer about proactivity given that it also then notes in the quote that Sotomayor dismissed that comment as having any relevance to her legal analysis.

Wow, you really managed to miss the point, didn't you?

I don't think so. But then I'm also not outraged...even really a bit bothered about what happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 10, 2015, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 10, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 10, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
Interesting that Slate calls out the comment by the officer about proactivity given that it also then notes in the quote that Sotomayor dismissed that comment as having any relevance to her legal analysis.

Wow, you really managed to miss the point, didn't you?

I don't think so. But then I'm also not outraged...even really a bit bothered about what happened.

Not even a bit?

The guys car was seconds away from being stopped anyway, his supervisor specifically told him NOT to shoot, and he killed a guy and then joked about it afterwards, and you "aren't even a bit bothered" by that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 10, 2015, 04:42:47 PM
No. Supervisors aren't infallible, so I don't think not listening to one is a problem. Should he have joked about it? Looks in bad taste but having never killed someone, I can't honestly say that I'd act in an entirely appropriate manner.

Also, while the Slate article later spins in that the car was definitely going to be stopped, from the outset that they note the supervisor wanted to see if they would be able to stop it first.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 10, 2015, 10:01:28 PM
OK.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on November 12, 2015, 09:10:11 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/11/the-death-of-jeremy-mardis-and-trustworthy-police/415437/?utm_source=SFFB

QuoteThe Death of Jeremy Mardis and the Honesty of the Police

The officers who shot and killed a 6-year-old in Louisiana had been sued multiple times, and officials have now accused them of lying about every relevant detail of the incident.

Any time police shoot and kill a 6-year-old, there are bound to be tough questions. And officers in Louisiana had answers about the death of Jeremy Mardis on November 3.

They said that Mardis's death was a tragic accident that occurred when police tried to serve a warrant on the boy's father, Chris Few. They said Few had resisted that warrant. When he'd been cornered on a dead-end road after a chase, they said, he had tried to reverse and hit the officers. Then there was an exchange of gunshots, and Jeremy—buckled into the front seat—was tragically caught in the crossfire.

Yet almost none of that turned out to be true.

There appear to have been no outstanding warrants for Few. No gun was found in his truck. Officials said while two of the officers had claimed Few reversed his SUV and tried to ram them, that wasn't actually true. When officials reviewed body-cam footage of the incident, they found Few actually had his arms in the air when the officers unloaded the barrage on the car. (Few survived the shooting that killed his son.)

"This was not a threatening situation for the police," said Mark Jeansonne, Few's attorney. Colonel Mike Edmonson, the superintendent of the Louisiana State Police, affirmed that after watching the footage.

"I'm not gonna talk about it, but I'm gonna tell you this," he said. "It is the most disturbing thing I've seen and I will leave it at that .... As a father, much less the head of the State Police, [it was] extremely disturbing."

That's part of the reason, he said, they were charging the officers involved. Derrick Stafford and Norris Greenhouse Jr., who have been charged with second-degree murder and attempted second-degree, were working as city marshals; Stafford is also a Marksville police officer, while Greenhouse is a reserve officer. Two other marshals were also involved in the chase, and one of them was wearing the body camera that captured the shooting. That footage has not been released to the public.

The district attorney's decision to charge them, and Edmonson's comments, are an encouraging sign. Police are seldom charged in fatal shootings, and when they are, they are seldom convicted. There's been a slight increase in the number of police charged this year, though experts say it's too soon to tell whether that's a result of closer scrutiny of police or simply a statistical blip.

Much of the attention given to Mardis's death has been on the role of body cameras. Because the incident was caught on film, the officers' accounts were debunked, and it's clear from Edmonson's comments that reviewing the footage had a strong effect on his own decision. There's much that's still unknown about how body cameras will effect policing and justice, and while this case is a single incident, the fact real footage can take the place of unreliable witness testimony is positive.

That's an appropriate and important way to think about the story, but it's not the only one. Another is about the honesty and trustworthiness of the police. Since the nation grants the police a near-monopoly on the use of deadly force, it's important that officers be honest, reliable, and trustworthy. In the Mardis case, all signs so far suggest officers did not meet that standard.

Consider all the discrepancies in the case: the apparently nonexistent warrant, the story of Few resisting and trying to ram the marshals, the supposed threat to the officers, the suggestion that Few had hired a gun. The officers involved are alleged to have lied about the incident, and Edmonson also expressed concern about two of the officers' refusal to speak to police. "It's more concerning the longer it takes to talk to us," he said. "All we want to know is what happened." When The Guardian asked why they hadn't been interviewed, Edmonson replied: "You'd have to ask them. We are trying to talk with them." (It appears the shooting occurred amid a turf war between the city marshal and the police department, complicating matters.)

Both Stafford and Greenhouse had been subject to multiple prior complaints—what the Associated Press characterized as "a string of civil lawsuits." Stafford was sued for two incidents in 2012, one in which he allegedly shocked a woman with a stun gun while she was handcuffed and another in which he was accused of breaking a girl's arm while breaking up a fight on a school bus. In 2014, a jury awarded $50,000 to a man who said Stafford had arrested him as payback for filing a complaint against him. Stafford was indicted twice for rape in 2011. In one of those cases, he was charged with raping a 15-year-old in 2004. Both charges were dismissed, but it's not clear why.

Stafford and Greenhouse were also defendants together in two separate cases. In one, a man said they used excessive force while arresting him in 2014. In the second, they were accused of refusing to take action while a third officer assaulted a teenager.

Meanwhile, reports have noted there appears to have been a conflict between Few and Greenhouse before the incident. Greenhouse was a former classmate of Few's girlfriend, Megan Dixon. Dixon said Greenhouse had been sending her messages, and Few threatened Greenhouse. "I told Chris, and Chris confronted him about it and told him, 'Next time you come to my house I'm going to hurt you,'" Dixon said.

A judge has now placed a gag order on nearly everyone involved in the case, so further information may be sparing. But the information so far paints a bleak picture. The officers in Jeremy Mardis's shooting were subject to multiple complaints about their fitness for duty. One was allegedly in a personal conflict with Chris Few. And police officials have now said that they were lying about almost every relevant point of the pursuit and shooting.

"Nothing is more important than this badge that we wear on our uniform, the integrity of why we wear it," Edmonson said when Stafford and Greenhouse were arrested. "It's not a right, it's a privilege. And tonight that badge has been tarnished." It's hard to disagree.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 17, 2015, 01:15:22 AM
^^^ Fucking sick. Bastards should be thrown to the gators.

Apparently the number of people killed by the police this year has reached 1000.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/16/the-counted-killed-by-police-1000
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jaron on November 17, 2015, 01:16:22 AM
The people killed by police should be fed to gators? Seems overkill.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on November 17, 2015, 01:27:43 AM
It seems to me that the biggest problem are not just bad cops (there will be psychos and criminals in every profession) but the systemic cover up and "professional solidarity" from the "good cops".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on November 17, 2015, 01:28:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 17, 2015, 01:15:22 AM
^^^ Fucking sick. Bastards should be thrown to the gators.

Apparently the number of people killed by the police this year has reached 1000.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/16/the-counted-killed-by-police-1000

Just the number 1,000 doesn't say much.  The circumstances of why they are killed is critical.  If you point a toy gun at police and is then killed, I'd say it is unfortunate but the police reaction is at least understandable. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jaron on November 17, 2015, 01:33:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 17, 2015, 01:27:43 AM
It seems to me that the biggest problem are not just bad cops (there will be psychos and criminals in every profession) but the systemic cover up and "professional solidarity" from the "good cops".

I agree. They also have a portion of the public where support for the police is a binary stance. You either support the police unconditionally or you're a police hater. A more analytical approach is needed when dealing with such a large or diverse organization. It cannot be all pure or all evil.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 17, 2015, 09:32:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 17, 2015, 01:27:43 AM
It seems to me that the biggest problem are not just bad cops (there will be psychos and criminals in every profession) but the systemic cover up and "professional solidarity" from the "good cops".

Yep. It had to do with training and institutional mentality. It took a long time to get where we are though and with so many independent jurisdictions changing it will take awhile.

QuoteI agree. They also have a portion of the public where support for the police is a binary stance. You either support the police unconditionally or you're a police hater. A more analytical approach is needed when dealing with such a large or diverse organization. It cannot be all pure or all evil.

Yeah this shit drives me nuts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2015, 12:42:48 AM
:( :( :(

http://abc11.com/news/family-deputies-in-shooting-were-after-someone-else/1087512/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on November 18, 2015, 07:48:15 AM
Quote from: Jaron on November 17, 2015, 01:33:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 17, 2015, 01:27:43 AM
It seems to me that the biggest problem are not just bad cops (there will be psychos and criminals in every profession) but the systemic cover up and "professional solidarity" from the "good cops".

I agree. They also have a portion of the public where support for the police is a binary stance. You either support the police unconditionally or you're a police hater. A more analytical approach is needed when dealing with such a large or diverse organization. It cannot be all pure or all evil.
That's how it is with just about everything these days. Agree with someone completely or you are a monster.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 19, 2015, 04:39:37 AM
What a bunch of incompetent fucks, can't even get the numbers and names straight weeks later when dealing with the press.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/11/18/my-white-neighbor-thought-i-was-breaking-into-my-own-apartment-nineteen-cops-showed-up/
QuoteBy Fay Wells November 18 at 6:00 AM
Fay Wells is vice president of strategy at a company in California.

(Kyle Monk for The Washington Post)

On Sept. 6, I locked myself out of my apartment in Santa Monica, Calif. I was in a rush to get to my weekly soccer game, so I decided to go enjoy the game and deal with the lock afterward.

A few hours and a visit from a locksmith later, I was inside my apartment and slipping off my shoes when I heard a man's voice and what sounded like a small dog whimpering outside, near my front window. I imagined a loiterer and opened the door to move him along. I was surprised to see a large dog halfway up the staircase to my door. I stepped back inside, closed the door and locked it.

I heard barking. I approached my front window and loudly asked what was going on. Peering through my blinds, I saw a gun. A man stood at the bottom of the stairs, pointing it at me. I stepped back and heard: "Come outside with your hands up." I thought: This man has a gun and will kill me if I don't come outside. At the same time, I thought: I've heard this line from policemen in movies. Although he didn't identify himself, perhaps he's an officer.

I left my apartment in my socks, shorts and a light jacket, my hands in the air. "What's going on?" I asked again. Two police officers had guns trained on me. They shouted: "Who's in there with you? How many of you are there?"

I said it was only me and, hands still raised, slowly descended the stairs, focused on one officer's eyes and on his pistol. I had never looked down the barrel of a gun or at the face of a man with a loaded weapon pointed at me. In his eyes, I saw fear and anger. I had no idea what was happening, but I saw how it would end: I would be dead in the stairwell outside my apartment, because something about me — a 5-foot-7, 125-pound black woman — frightened this man with a gun. I sat down, trying to look even less threatening, trying to de-escalate. I again asked what was going on. I confirmed there were no pets or people inside.

I told the officers I didn't want them in my apartment. I said they had no right to be there. They entered anyway. One pulled me, hands behind my back, out to the street. The neighbors were watching. Only then did I notice the ocean of officers. I counted 16. They still hadn't told me why they'd come.

Later, I learned that the Santa Monica Police Department had dispatched 19 officers after one of my neighbors reported a burglary at my apartment. It didn't matter that I told the cops I'd lived there for seven months, told them about the locksmith, offered to show a receipt for his services and my ID. It didn't matter that I went to Duke, that I have an MBA from Dartmouth, that I'm a vice president of strategy at a multinational corporation. It didn't matter that I've never had so much as a speeding ticket. It didn't matter that I calmly, continually asked them what was happening. It also didn't matter that I didn't match the description of the person they were looking for — my neighbor described me as Hispanic when he called 911. What mattered was that I was a woman of color trying to get into her apartment — in an almost entirely white apartment complex in a mostly white city — and a white man who lived in another building called the cops because he'd never seen me before.

After the officers and dog exited my "cleared" apartment, I was allowed back inside to speak with some of them. They asked me why I hadn't come outside shouting, "I live here." I told them it didn't make sense to walk out of my own apartment proclaiming my residence when I didn't even know what was going on. I also reminded them that they had guns pointed at me. Shouting at anyone with a gun doesn't seem like a wise decision.

I had so many questions. Why hadn't they announced themselves? Why had they pointed guns at me? Why had they refused to answer when I asked repeatedly what was going on? Was it protocol to send more than a dozen cops to a suspected burglary? Why hadn't anyone asked for my ID or accepted it, especially after I'd offered it? If I hadn't heard the dog, would I have opened the door to a gun in my face? "Maybe," they answered.

I demanded all of their names and was given few. Some officers simply ignored me when I asked, boldly turning and walking away. Afterward, I saw them talking to neighbors, but they ignored me when I approached them again. A sergeant assured me that he'd personally provide me with all names and badge numbers.

I introduced myself to the reporting neighbor and asked if he was aware of the gravity of his actions — the ocean of armed officers, my life in danger. He stuttered about never having seen me, before snippily asking if I knew my next-door neighbor. After confirming that I did and questioning him further, he angrily responded, "I'm an attorney, so you can go f— yourself," and walked away.

I spoke with two of the officers a little while longer, trying to wrap my mind around the magnitude and nature of their response. They wondered: Wouldn't I want the same response if I'd been the one who called the cops? "Absolutely not," I told them. I recounted my terror and told them how I imagined it all ending, particularly in light of the recent interactions between police and people of color. One officer admitted that it was complicated but added that people sometimes kill cops for no reason. I was momentarily speechless at this strange justification.

I got no clear answers from the police that night and am still struggling to get them, despite multiple visits, calls and e-mails to the Santa Monica Police Department requesting the names of the officers, their badge numbers, the audio from my neighbor's call to 911 and the police report. The sergeant didn't e-mail me the officers' names as he promised. I was told that the audio of the call requires a subpoena and that the small army of responders, guns drawn, hadn't merited an official report. I eventually received a list from the SMPD of 17 officers who came to my apartment that night, but the list does not include the names of two officers who handed me their business cards on the scene. I've filed an official complaint with internal affairs.

To many, the militarization of the police is primarily abstract or painted as occasional. That thinking allows each high-profile incident of aggressive police interaction with people of color — Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray — to be written off as an outlier.

What happened to them did not happen to me, but it easily could have. The SMPD sent 19 armed police officers who refused to answer my questions while violating my rights, privacy and sense of well-being. A wrong move, and I could have been shot. My complaint is not the first against the department this year. This spring, the local branch of the NAACP and other concerned residents met with SMPD to discuss several incidents of aggressive policing against people of color. The NAACP asked SMPD for demographic information on all traffic, public transportation and pedestrian stops; so far, the department has promised to release a report of detailed arrest data next year.

The trauma of that night lingers. I can't un-see the guns, the dog, the officers forcing their way into my apartment, the small army waiting for me outside. Almost daily, I deal with sleeplessness, confusion, anger and fear. I'm frightened when I see large dogs now. I have nightmares of being beaten by white men as they call me the n-word. Every week, I see the man who called 911. He averts his eyes and ignores me.

I'm heartbroken that his careless assessment of me, based on skin color, could endanger my life. I'm heartbroken by the sense of terror I got from people whose job is supposedly to protect me. I'm heartbroken by a system that evades accountability and justifies dangerous behavior. I'm heartbroken that the place I called home no longer feels safe. I'm heartbroken that no matter how many times a story like this is told, it will happen again.

Not long ago, I was walking with a friend to a crowded restaurant when I spotted two cops in line and froze. I tried to figure out how to get around them without having to walk past them. I no longer wanted to eat there, but I didn't want to ruin my friend's evening. As we stood in line, 10 or so people back, my eyes stayed on them. I've always gone out of my way to avoid generalizations. I imagined that perhaps these two cops were good people, but I couldn't stop thinking about what the Santa Monica police had done to me. I found a lump in my throat as I tried to separate them from the system that had terrified me. I realized that if I needed help, I didn't think I could ask them for it.

Editor's note: The Santa Monica Police Department told The Washington Post that 16 officers were on the scene but later provided a list of 17 names. That list does not match the list of 17 names that was eventually provided to the writer; the total number of names provided by the SMPD is 19.
The department also said that it was protocol for this type of call to warrant "a very substantial police response," and that any failure of officers to provide their names and badge numbers "would be inconsistent with the Department's protocols and expectations." There is an open internal affairs inquiry into the writer's allegations of racially motivated misconduct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 19, 2015, 04:58:03 AM
Quote"I'm an attorney, so you can go f— yourself,"

I believe a few Languishites have t-shirts that say this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 19, 2015, 08:41:21 AM
QuoteTo many, the militarization of the police is primarily abstract or painted as occasional. That thinking allows each high-profile incident of aggressive police interaction with people of color — Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray — to be written off as an outlier.

I don't follow. Being angry about the militarization of the police means that one does not take seriously the race issue the police have as well? Am I only allowed to be upset about one issue the police have at a time? The insinuation is almost that is you do care about the militarization issue you are a racist, which is bizarre and unjustified.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 19, 2015, 08:57:56 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2015, 08:41:21 AM
QuoteTo many, the militarization of the police is primarily abstract or painted as occasional. That thinking allows each high-profile incident of aggressive police interaction with people of color — Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray — to be written off as an outlier.

I don't follow. Being angry about the militarization of the police means that one does not take seriously the race issue the police have as well? Am I only allowed to be upset about one issue the police have at a time? The insinuation is almost that is you do care about the militarization issue you are a racist, which is bizarre and unjustified.

I don't understand how you get that at all. It appears to me that they are saying that the militarization of police is often something dismissed as primarily abstract/just occasional which allows people to say that each of those high-profile incidents are simply outliers and not indicative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 19, 2015, 09:02:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2015, 08:57:56 AM
I don't understand how you get that at all. It appears to me that they are saying that the militarization of police is often something dismissed as primarily abstract/just occasional which allows people to say that each of those high-profile incidents are simply outliers and not indicative.

Except there is nothing abstract about that. That is about concrete policy decisions and incentives and the impact on the mentality of a police force and its training. And how would evidence of this effect in action be an outlier or not indicative? If I was going to discuss the militarization of the police force a case like this would be front and center. I mean the cops have always struggled with the race issue, as most of this country's institutions have, but then you throw in the militarization issue and you get horrible things like this.

So I guess I don't see how being upset about the militarization issue "allows" me to say that about these incidents. I would think it would lead one to say they are NOT outliers and ARE indicative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 19, 2015, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2015, 09:02:00 AM
So I guess I don't see how being upset about the militarization issue "allows" me to say that about these incidents. I would think it would lead one to say they are NOT outliers and ARE indicative.

She's not talking about you being upset, but somebody else thinking it's abstract or occasional, which "allows" them to write off incidents as an outlier.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 19, 2015, 09:15:13 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 19, 2015, 09:05:48 AM

She's not talking about you being upset, but somebody else thinking it's abstract or occasional, which "allows" them to write off incidents as an outlier.

That makes no sense. Like being against child abuse "allows" you to write off incidents of child abuse as an outlier. Huh? Why would it allow that?

I guess it is the abstract thing, but again what about militarization is abstract? Those black unis, body armor, and assault weapons are not abstract.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 19, 2015, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 19, 2015, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2015, 09:02:00 AM
So I guess I don't see how being upset about the militarization issue "allows" me to say that about these incidents. I would think it would lead one to say they are NOT outliers and ARE indicative.

She's not talking about you being upset, but somebody else thinking it's abstract or occasional, which "allows" them to write off incidents as an outlier.

:yes:

V, de-wad your panties. We get it, you don't like how she worded it. Great?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 19, 2015, 11:17:43 AM
I have to agree with Valmy there, the wording is poor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on November 19, 2015, 02:19:59 PM
Probably worded poorly due to lack of sleep from nightmares about dogs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 19, 2015, 02:26:58 PM
Actually, I think that'd be fear of corrupt govt officials.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2015, 01:40:22 AM
Good news

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1125196/sneed-exclusive-officer-shot-laquan-mcdonald-charged-tuesday

QuoteOfficer who shot Laquan McDonald to be charged with murder

Written By Michael Sneed Posted: 11/23/2015, 03:07pm

Officer Jason Van Dyke on Tuesday, Sneed has learned. | File photo 


Sneed has learned a criminal probe launched by Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez into the shooting death of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald is expected to result in first-degree murder charges Tuesday against 37-year-old Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke.

∞The shocker: If a first-degree murder charge is placed against Officer Van Dyke, it will be the first time in Chicago history an "on duty" police officer was charged with such a crime.



Any decision to file charges Tuesday against Officer Van Dyke comes in the wake of a Cook County judge's ruling last week ordering the release of an incendiary video showing a white police officer shooting McDonald, an African-American teen, whose body was riddled with 16 bullets.

On Saturday, the Rev. Jesse Jackson: told the press he was hoping for a "police shakeup from top to bottom" after the release of the dashboard cam video; expressed anger Officer Van Dyke was still getting paid "while McDonald is perishing in his grave"; and called for Alvarez to step down for "failing" to charge him.



Although Alvarez would make no comment, Sneed hears she huddled with staff over the weekend preparing to weigh in on the Laquan McDonald case in advance of the release of the controversial video showing Officer Van Dyke, who is white, shooting the African-American teen on Oct. 20, 2014.

Sneed is told the potentially inflammatory video, which was ordered released by Wednesday in a ruling last week by Cook County Judge Franklin Valderrama, is scheduled to be released after the criminal charges are filed — and by the judge's deadline.

In addition to Alvarez, Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Police Supt. Garry McCarthy had come under intense criticism for permitting Officer Van Dyke, who had been stripped of police authority, to continue to be assigned to paid desk duty ... and for keeping the video from the public eye until the "appropriate" time pending a result of an investigation.

Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who is back at work after a whirlwind business trip to China, reversed course after Judge Franklin Valderrama's decision Friday and said he would not seek to have the ruling overturned.

Release of the video also prompted Alvarez to move quickly before the video was released hoping to quell any violent reaction by the public to a growing national furor over reports of unfair, premeditated treatment of black teens by white police officers.

Sneed also hears Alvarez's operatives have also been reaching out to ministers, community leaders and other members of the faith-based community asking them to spread a message encouraging peaceful protests when the video is released by the city of Chicago on Wednesday.

The charges brought by Alvarez pre-empt the result of a joint investigation her office had been conducting along with the Chicago branch of the FBI.

Ironically, before a wrongful death lawsuit was even filed by McDonald's family, the Chicago City Council unanimously voted to approve a $5 million settlement with them.

∞Backstory: On Oct. 20, 2014, the incident resulting in McDonald's death began when a report to 911 claimed a knife wielding man, McDonald, who was acting erratically — had threatened the complainant — and was attempting to break into vehicles in an Archer Heights trucking yard.

Two police officers, responding to the incident, ordered McDonald to drop the 4-inch folding knife, which he subsequently used to puncture a tire on one of the squad cars. McDonald, a ward of the state whose mother was in the process of seeking custody of him, reportedly ignored the warning.

While jogging away from the officers — and still wielding a knife, McDonald's erratic behavior resulted in other police officers arriving at the scene — as well as a request for a taser.

Subsequently, a squad car equipped with a dashboard camera also arrived. The video from that dashboard camera purportedly shows Van Dyke's marked SUV police vehicle pulling in front of the teen, who then veered into traffic.

At some point Van Dyke exited his car with his gun drawn and opened fire on McDonald, pumping 16 bullets into his body. An autopsy report purportedly showed McDonald had PCP in his system when killed. Several other officers on the scene did not open fire.

A troubled teen, McDonald had no adult criminal record, but he had reportedly been arrested on juvenile complaints.

Attorney Daniel Q. Herbert who is representing officer Van Dyke, has insisted his clients actions were justified and within the police department guidelines. He could not be reached immediately for comment Monday.

On Friday, Herbert told reporters that his client fired because "he believed in his heart of hearts that he was in fear for his life, that he was concerned abut the lives of [other] police officers."

According to Independent Police Review Authority records, since 2006 Van Dyke has received a total of 17 citizen complaints, including three complaints within a four-year span involving excessive force-related allegations. He was also accused for making racial remarks.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 02, 2015, 05:00:04 AM
Looks like you've got a really elite force working for you, Valmy.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Texas-Trooper-Fired-Allegedly-Propositioned-Driver-for-Sex-359631091.html

QuoteA Texas trooper has been fired after being accused of stopping a driver for speeding and offering her $300 to have sex with him.

The Texas Department of Public Safety on Tuesday announced the dismissal of Christopher Champion just hours after his arrest and release.

The 31-year-old Champion was arrested Monday night in San Antonio on charges of misdemeanor soliciting prostitution and official oppression.

Online Bexar County jail records don't list bond or an attorney to speak for Champion, who joined DPS in 2008 and was stationed in San Antonio.

Investigators say Champion on Sept. 17 stopped a woman on Interstate 35, allegedly tried to solicit sex and then used her cellphone to text himself, to get her contact information.

She left without getting a ticket but contacted Texas Rangers.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on December 08, 2015, 09:32:23 PM
For balance, some positive police violence.  :sleep:

http://bcove.me/1fi6ufzt

Very dramatic video though...practically some GTAV shit going down. (note: while the perp was killed by the police, and that is shown, there isn't any blood/guts in the video...nor is the perp actually seen at all).


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 08, 2015, 10:03:51 PM
You know what the perp perped Tonto?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on December 08, 2015, 10:27:31 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 08, 2015, 10:03:51 PM
You know what the perp perped Tonto?

Here is the story:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/spd-releases-new-details-on-fatal-shooting-of-carjacker/

Exec summary: Previously convicted felon...coffee shop employees reported a man with a gun, police attempted to apprehend, man flees...in doing so, commits three carjackings, with one more attempted in between...also fires on pursing police while on the run.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2015, 08:34:47 PM
Good for people in custody, but not so good for Rahm.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-philip-coleman-judge-ruling-met-20151214-story.html

QuoteJudge: Using Taser, dragging Coleman from lockup amounts to 'brute force'


By Todd Lighty and Steve Mills•Contact Reporters
Chicago Tribune

December 14, 2015, 4:05 PM

A federal judge ruled Monday that a Chicago police employee used "brute force" when he dragged a handcuffed suspect out of his cell and down a police station hallway in a 2012 encounter that was captured on video and stirred protests last week over police brutality.

U.S. District Judge Matthew Kennelly also found that the employee's supervisor failed to stop the abuse of Philip Coleman and that no evidence existed that police gave Coleman the chance to leave his lockup cell on his own after he was repeatedly shocked with a Taser.

Kennelly, who is presiding over the Coleman family's civil rights lawsuit against the city, the police department and others, wrote in his ruling that it will be up to a jury to determine monetary damages against Keith Kirkland, a civilian detention aide, and Sgt. Tommy Walker, who is now retired.

"Kirkland chose to use brute force when it was no longer necessary," Kennelly wrote in a strongly worded opinion. "Sgt. Walker conceded during his deposition that the officers could have stood Mr. Coleman up and told him to walk ... It is undisputed that Sgt. Walker could have ordered Kirkland not to drag, or to stop dragging, Mr. Coleman and that he chose not to do so."


Coleman, 38, died at a hospital after a fatal reaction to an antipsychotic drug. An autopsy, though, showed that he had suffered severe trauma, including more than 50 cuts and bruises on his body from the top of his head to his lower legs.

As City Hall last week released the video showing the confrontation with Coleman, Mayor Rahm Emanuel said Coleman's treatment was unacceptable. The Independent Police Review Authority, the civilian agency that investigates police use of force, also announced it was reopening its investigation into the matter, despite earlier having cleared Kirkland and Walker of any wrongdoing.

Ed Fox, the lawyer for the Coleman family, said Kennelly's ruling shows that police oversight in Chicago is broken and needs to be overhauled.

"(The ruling) is important because the question of excessive force in connection with dragging Philip Coleman is no longer for a jury's determination as this piece of the case has been now determined," Fox said. "It is also a judicial recognition, before trial, that excessive force was indisputably used. It is also important because the supervisor on the scene ... is also liable since he just stood by and let it happen, if not facilitated it happening.

"By inference, at trial, we will also contend that another supervisor on the scene, as well as the remaining officers who were in the cell where Philip was tased and choked, should also be liable for dragging Philip," he said.

Shannon Breymaier, a City Hall spokeswoman, said the city appreciates the urgency of the case.

"Everyone in Chicago deserves answers on what happened in this incident," Breymaier said in a statement. "That's why one of Sharon Fairley's first orders of business as the new chief administrator at IPRA last week was to reopen the disciplinary investigation into this incident and the mayor joins all Chicagoans in eagerly awaiting their findings."

In addition to Walker and Kirkland, Fox has sued five supervisors and seven officers for their conduct involving Coleman. Fox said a jury will have to decide the liability of the others.

Coleman, a University of Chicago political science graduate, was taken into custody Dec. 12, 2012. He had gone to his parents' Far South Side home to speak with his mother, Lena, when he suffered a mental breakdown, shouting at her, throwing furniture and punching her in the face, Coleman's family has said. Lena Coleman called police and told officers on the scene that she did not want to press charges. A police report said Philip Coleman spit bloody saliva on two officers and, as a result, he was charged with aggravated battery.

The police video of the next morning shows six officers at the Calumet Police District lockup entering Coleman's cell to take him to bond court. Coleman, who had been asleep, stood, then was tased before officers wrestled him to the floor and handcuffed him. He was shocked three times. Police have said they shocked Coleman because he was uncooperative. The video shows Kirkland dragging Coleman out of his cell and down the hall by his handcuffs, according to Kennelly's opinion.

"Mr. Coleman is motionless while being dragged," Kennelly wrote. "His legs are shackled together at the ankles and are not moving."

Kennelly dismissed the city's contention that Kirkland reacted to an evolving situation and made a "decision on the fly."

"Whatever the propriety of the use of a Taser and the ensuing efforts to subdue Mr. Coleman, once the officers had his hands and legs shackled, he was under control and on the floor," Kennelly wrote. "Given those circumstances, there is no viable claim, and no reasonable jury could find, that Officer Kirkland had to make a split-second decision on what to do next."

Coleman was taken to Roseland Community Hospital, where police reports state he again became combative. Coleman was stunned 13 times with a Taser and struck with a baton.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2015, 04:04:24 AM
Should drunk drivers be shot in the neck? California says yes.

Click to watch the video.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/12/14/california_officer_shoots_suspected_drunk_driver_in_dashcam_video.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 15, 2015, 04:06:36 AM
As my U.S. family members would say: if people would stop breaking the law, and followed police instructions, and treated police officers with the respect their position deserves, nobody would get hurt. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on December 15, 2015, 04:29:57 AM
More aptly describe as be prepared to denigrate yourself and expect/accept the police to treat you in a manner that you would never allow from anyone else and you stand a chance of coming out unscathed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 15, 2015, 09:40:02 AM
No need to denigrate yourself, just act subservient and promptly follow every order.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on December 15, 2015, 01:30:30 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2015, 04:04:24 AM
Should drunk drivers be shot in the neck? California says yes.

But only if it's an accident!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 15, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 15, 2015, 09:40:02 AM
No need to denigrate yourself, just act subservient and promptly follow every order.

Well that may be normal to some of us, but others may find that denigrating.

Yep. Do nothing to even make a cop think he has been provoked. You never know what kind of jerk you are going to get. I have had a couple cops come at me all redass and belligerent just for regular traffic stops and shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on December 15, 2015, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 15, 2015, 09:40:02 AM
No need to denigrate yourself, just act subservient and promptly follow every order.

No need to denigrate or act subservient, but yes follow every order.

I remember I was at NDSU campus late one evening with a fraternity buddy of mine while in university.  We were stopped by cops while walking.  I can't remember exactly what was said other than I was polite and followed directions, but I also politely asked the officer what he was doing and why.  My buddy was super-impressed that I had pulled some kind of "lawyer mind trick" on the cop as he left us with a very different attitude than he started with.   :cool:

Look I'll admit I'm white, not black, so I can't fully comment on what difference that would make.  And I think being polite and respectful while also standing up for yourself is actually trickier than it sounds.  But there's no magic in it either.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 15, 2015, 02:18:05 PM
All I can say about Canadian cops is that my colleagues who went to Toronto talked one into giving them a speed boat ride in the harbor, two girls had their pictures taken with a young cop, playfully wrapped around him while handcuffed, and that the show Rookie Blue has a very attractive female cast. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on December 15, 2015, 02:21:59 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 15, 2015, 02:18:05 PM
All I can say about Canadian cops is that my colleagues who went to Toronto talked one into giving them a speed boat ride in the harbor, two girls had their pictures taken with a young cop, playfully wrapped around him while handcuffed, and that the show Rookie Blue has a very attractive female cast. -_-

NDSU is in Fargo, North Dakota. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 15, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
Which is practically Canada. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on December 15, 2015, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 15, 2015, 02:18:05 PM
All I can say about Canadian cops is that my colleagues who went to Toronto talked one into giving them a speed boat ride in the harbor, two girls had their pictures taken with a young cop, playfully wrapped around him while handcuffed, and that the show Rookie Blue has a very attractive female cast. -_-

:D

Toronto cops have radically changed their image during my lifetime.

When I was a teen, there was still the notorious "Cherry Beach Express" - Cherry Beach was (then) an isolated section of the waterfront, where the cops would take people who displeased them (mostly gays, minorities, and rowdy teens who lacked good connections) and beat the shit out of them - then dump them. Allegedly, one trick was to use a telephone book for padding and whack the air out of the victim's lungs with a nightstick. Never happened to me, but stories are rumors about this sort of thing were rife.

Nowadays there are still issues around policing (the practice of "carding" is controversial), but it is around 100% better than it was in the late 70s early 80s.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2015, 07:19:12 PM
Looks like this is a problem that is solvable if the police had the will to do so, sadly it deos not seem like they have the will.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-predict-which-chicago-cops-will-commit-misconduct/

QuoteThe extensive catalog of complaints against officers appears to bear out the theory of a few bad apples: Among the 7,758 police officers who received a complaint during that time period, more than half received less than one per year (officers with zero complaints do not appear in the database). Meanwhile, the bad apples seem to be the ones racking up the grievances.

(https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/arthur-policemisconduct-1.png?w=610&h=404)

To avoid the overworked "bad apple" metaphor, the Invisible Institute prefers to call officers with many complaints against them "repeaters." Repeaters only make up a small fraction of the more than 12,000 officers on Chicago's force — perhaps 1 percent to 10 percent of the officers in the database, depending on where you draw the line — but are responsible for a huge fraction of the complaints: 10 percent of the officers who had received complaints generated 30 percent of the total departmental complaints since 2011. The 10 individual repeaters with the most complaints in the past five years averaged 23.4 complaints against them in that span.

In addition to the outsize number of complaints, Kalven said, repeaters have broader, cultural impacts, both within and outside of the department. Within the department, repeaters might normalize misconduct toward residents, pushing other cops toward wrongdoing. Outside of the department, the behavior of these officers can turn the community against the police. "That's what the 'few bad apples' theory doesn't capture: the kind of compounding, metastasizing arms that flow from the impunity of bad cops," Kalven said.

The Chicago Police Department declined to comment on this article, saying in an email that it could not address studies provided by outside sources. But the paradigm of repeaters is promising, in a way. It suggests that if we could identify the bad actors within a police department and remove them from the force, the overall performance of the department would improve. Not only would dismissing these officers trigger a significant reduction in complaints and misconduct, the thinking goes, it could spark a cultural shift toward more responsible policing.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on December 16, 2015, 11:15:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on December 15, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 15, 2015, 09:40:02 AM
No need to denigrate yourself, just act subservient and promptly follow every order.

Well that may be normal to some of us, but others may find that denigrating.

Yep. Do nothing to even make a cop think he has been provoked. You never know what kind of jerk you are going to get. I have had a couple cops come at me all redass and belligerent just for regular traffic stops and shit.

I'm not into the whole S&M scene. YMMV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 16, 2015, 06:41:25 PM
The trial of the first cop (they're being tried separately) in the Freddie Gray case (Baltimore, died in a paddy wagon) ended in a hung jury.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 09:42:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 16, 2015, 06:41:25 PM
The trial of the first cop (they're being tried separately) in the Freddie Gray case (Baltimore, died in a paddy wagon) ended in a hung jury.

Well that has to be a bummer for everybody who showed up for the riot.

There will be another trial then I guess.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 16, 2015, 10:29:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 09:42:06 PM
Well that has to be a bummer for everybody who showed up for the riot.

There will be another trial then I guess.

Eh?  I thought the riot was because of the hung jury.

Prosecutor has already said she'll go again.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 11:26:22 PM
Oh wait there was a riot? Huh. Silly me thought there wouldn't be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 16, 2015, 11:31:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 11:26:22 PM
Oh wait there was a riot? Huh. Silly me thought there wouldn't be.

Riots a couple weeks before Christmas, that's one way of getting your shopping done.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 27, 2015, 07:27:41 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35185394

QuoteChicago police 'accidentally kill' mother of five

A Chicago police officer "accidentally struck and tragically killed" a mother of five after responding to a domestic disturbance, department officials say.

Bettie Jones, 55, was killed along with her neighbour, 19-year-old Quintonio LeGrier, who was the reason for the police call-out early on Saturday.

Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel said an investigation had been launched.

The city's police department is already the subject of a federal investigation over its use of force.

It follows the killing of a black teenager by a white officer in 2014.

'Public deserves answers'

Saturday's double shooting happened in the early hours. Antonio LeGrier told the Chicago Sun-Times that he had returned home to find his son, who had mental health issues, in an agitated state.

He said he called the police, and warned his neighbour Bettie Jones, who lived on the floor below, about what was going on.

When the police arrived, he said, he heard gunshots and found his son and Ms Jones lying in the foyer.

Chicago Police Department said in a statement that "upon arrival, officers were confronted by a combative subject resulting in the discharging of the officer's weapon, fatally wounding two individuals.

"The 55-year-old female victim was accidentally struck and tragically killed. The department extends its deepest condolences to the victim's family and friends."

Mayor Emanuel, in a statement, said: "Anytime an officer uses force the public deserves answers, and regardless of the circumstances, we all grieve anytime there is a loss of life in our city."

US Attorney General Loretta Lynch announced earlier this month that a federal investigation into the Chicago Police Department would focus on whether there was a racial dimension to its use of force and its accountability procedures for officers involved in the use of force.

According to the Better Government Association, Chicago police shot 240 people in the 2010-2014 period, or about one per week. Seventy of those people died and of those, two-thirds were African American.

Ms Lynch's announcement came after weeks of protest which followed the release of video footage, showing the moment a police officer opened fire on 17-year-old Laquan McDonald, shooting him 16 times, in 2014.

The officer, Jason Van Dyke, was charged with first-degree murder just a few hours before the video was released in late November - more than a year after the shooting.

In response to the outcry, Mayor Emanuel fired the city's police chief and later announced the resignation of the Independent Police Review Authority's chief.

Mr Emanuel originally said a federal investigation would be "misguided", but later back-tracked and welcomed an investigation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 27, 2015, 05:22:52 PM
The use of "struck" sounds weird here.  It implies being hit something physically connect to a person, like their hand or a bat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 27, 2015, 06:03:17 PM
The need to hammer these cops to get rid of the "pull my gun for everything" culture.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on December 28, 2015, 05:40:51 PM
So, what if a cop kills three other cops? That sure qualifies as police violence and goes in this thread right?


In Spanish: http://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/seguridad/nota/muerentresagentesamanosdeotrooficialenponce-2144135/


I found one in English: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2015/12/28/tragedy-in-blue-three-police-officers-killed-by-fourth-in-puerto-rico/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on December 28, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
Puerto Rico has law enforcement?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: lustindarkness on December 28, 2015, 06:59:05 PM
Not really,  but they have police departments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 29, 2015, 02:22:46 AM
That these two aren't going to be held accountable is absolute bullshit.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/12/28/tamir_rice_s_death_didn_t_lead_to_indictments_because_of_supreme_court_vagueness.html

QuoteTamir Rice's Death Resulted From "Officer-Created Jeopardy." So Why Were No Officers Indicted?

By Leon Neyfakh

The two police officers involved in the death of 12-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland will not be charged with a crime, officials announced Monday. Timothy Loehmann, a rookie officer, shot Rice on Nov. 22 after he and his partner, Frank Garmback, confronted the boy at a park in response to a 911 call about a man with a gun.

It turned out that the gun Rice was carrying was not real—a fact that has made the tragedy of his death stand out from the many other cases of police-involved shootings in recent months. But Loehmann and Garmback did not know the gun was merely a pellet gun when they drove their cruiser to about seven feet of him, and video footage of the incident captured by a security camera shows that Loehmann opened fire on Rice less than two seconds after he and Garmback pulled up.

The decision to not indict either of the officers was reached by a grand jury of nine people, who were impaneled by Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy McGinty. The decision was influenced by McGinty's belief—presented to the grand jury as a formal recommendation—that there was no probable cause to conclude that Rice's shooting had been a crime, as well as by testimony from witnesses and experts who appeared before the jurors in closed-door hearings.

Why did McGinty and the grand jury let Loehmann and Garmback walk? This is what millions of Americans are wondering today, more than a year after Rice's death and about a year and a half into the existence of the Black Lives Matter movement.

McGinty's office made the case for the non-indictment during an extended press conference this afternoon. But the central concept in the case—the one that it is crucial to understanding the grand jury's reasoning—was never mentioned. That concept is known in law enforcement circles as "officer-created jeopardy": situations in which police officers are responsible for needlessly putting themselves in danger, committing an unforced tactical error that makes them vulnerable—and then using deadly force to protect themselves.

Here's how "officer-created jeopardy" relates to the death of Tamir Rice. As security footage of the shooting shows, Loehmann and Garmback's car didn't come to a stop until it was right next to Rice. In fact, the video indicates that the car was still moving when Loehmann opened the passenger side door and jumped out. Faced with a suspect they believed to be armed, in other words, Loehmann and Garmback decided to drive right up to him—thereby exposing themselves to the possibility that Rice could open fire on them with almost no warning.

The question the grand jurors had to answer, then, was whether to take that decision into account when determining the legality of the officers' actions. Did it matter that no one forced Loehmann and Garmback to approach their suspect so aggressively? Did it matter that, by approaching him the way they did, they were the ones who had created the situation in which it then became necessary, in Loehmann's view at least, to use deadly force?

There is no legal consensus on this. Indeed, it turns out that the death of Tamir Rice and its aftermath have unfolded at the very fulcrum of an important, unresolved legal debate over when it is and isn't OK for police to use deadly force.

To understand the parameters of this debate, it helps to first look at the set of basic questions that always comes up when a law enforcement officer comes under legal scrutiny for using deadly force against a civilian. Was the officer justified in using deadly force? Was it reasonable for him to fear that the suspect posed a threat of death or serious bodily harm to him or others? Would other officers have acted the same under the circumstances?

As McGinty and assistant district attorney Matthew Meyer explained during Monday's press conference, these questions arise because of a 1989 Supreme Court ruling in Graham v. Connor, which established the constitutional test by which all use of force cases involving the police must be evaluated in court. The ruling classified use of force as a form of "seizure," meaning that it was subject to the Fourth Amendment, which protects against "unreasonable" searches and seizures. It also included several key lines that have since been cited endlessly by lawyers defending police officers from excessive force lawsuits.

The first of these key lines stated that use of force incidents had to be evaluated "from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight." The other said, "the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments—in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving—about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation."

But there are two possible ways to apply the "reasonableness" standard set forth in Graham to a case like that of Tamir Rice. One looks only at the moment when the officer decided to fire his gun; that's the view McGinty and the grand jury took in deciding not to indict. The other zooms out and examines the choices that the officers made leading up to that moment.

The first approach, which was advocated by the policing experts that McGinty hired to testify before the Tamir Rice grand jury, says that we shouldn't "Monday morning quarterback" the tactical decisions of our police officers. The other says we should: As David Rudovsky, a civil rights lawyer in Philadelphia, put it to me recently, "As a matter of police professionalism and as a matter of law, if an officer acts recklessly in creating danger for himself, he shouldn't be allowed to say 'I was justified because he was about to hurt me.' "

This is sometimes referred to as the "final frame" vs. "phases of the encounter" question. And the Supreme Court is vague about how it should be answered: On the one hand the Graham ruling specified that we should consider "the totality of the circumstances," but on the other hand, it zeroed in on the "the split-second decision" an officer makes when applying use of force.

There is arguably good reason for this apparent ambivalence: Different situations call for different tactics, and the law has to be flexible enough to allow officers to respond to crisis situations swiftly. As Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a nonprofit that works with law enforcement agencies around the country, told me recently,

We expect a lot of our police officers. In an active shooter situation we expect officers to step up and act immediately and get the bad guy. For a police officer to pause in those situations—that's not what we expect. On the other hand, in these other situations, where they're dealing with an extremely disturbed person, or a homeless person, our expectation is different. There we expect them to step back, to slow down, to get additional resources if necessary. Resolving that situation right away is not what is needed—what is needed is a more balanced slow-down step back, calling in additional resources.

Wexler emphasized the importance of distinguishing between what is legal and what is right, from a tactical standpoint. When it comes to training, he said, "It's not enough to simply look at it from a legalistic standpoint. You want to look at it in terms of, 'Are there options that could have been used that would result in less force being used?' That's a higher standard than the legal standard."

That doesn't mean we should be satisfied with a legal standard that is, by many accounts, a mess. In an email, University of Virginia School of Law professor Rachel Harmon explained that while the Supreme Court's "whole orientation is on the moment of force," it has not "precluded looking at reckless conduct by the police officer himself or by the department ... that could contribute to making force reasonable." The matter is, consequently, unresolved, with some circuit courts having ruled that the moments leading up to a deadly confrontation cannot be taken into account, and other circuit courts saying they have to be. Even within the 6th Circuit, whose jurisdiction includes Ohio, rulings are split, with one decision, from 2008, concluding that "where a police officer unreasonably places himself in harm's way, his use of deadly force may be deemed excessive," and another, from 2007, saying that precedent "instructs us to disregard ... events [leading up to a killing] and to focus on the 'split-second judgments' made immediately before the officer used allegedly excessive force." 

The prosecutors in the Tamir Rice case clearly favored the latter interpretation—in fact, they cited it in their presentation today. Nevertheless it's an undeniably confusing state of affairs that leads to inconsistent application of the law, and some policing experts would like the Supreme Court clarify the matter. Geoff Alpert, a criminologist at the University of South Carolina, and Jeffrey Noble, a former deputy police chief in Irvine, California, put it this way in a textbook chapter on police tactics:

The circuits that advocate a final-frame analysis are overlooking the holding in Graham that requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each case... and are focusing only on whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the officers or others. Such a limited view prevents a thorough analysis of what could be the most intrusive action that can be perpetrated by the state – taking the life of one of its citizens. Most importantly, this wide disparity among the circuits demands some intervention by the Supreme Court to create a rule may be uniformly applied.

Maybe the Supreme Court will do that, someday. For Rice and the many other civilians who have lost their lives as a result of officer-created jeopardy, it will be too late.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 26, 2016, 05:39:51 PM
http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2016/01/25/suspect-shot-killed-reno-police-after-firing-officers-police-say/79328928/

An accident happened. One of the dudes involved in the accident got despondent, and was holding a knife to his own throat, threatening suicide.

Cops..tried to tase him. Didn't work. So they shot him multiple times and now he's dead.

Should have just let him cut himself, retards.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:50:44 PM
:lol:

:(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 26, 2016, 08:25:32 PM
How the fuck they training these guys.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 27, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 26, 2016, 08:25:32 PM
How the fuck they training these guys.

They aren't.

I saw an interview recently that Sam harris did with an ex-SWAT guy, and he made a good point in regards to training, and the use of deadly force.

We require police officers to have training in a LOT of stuff. Weapons use, first aid, the law, martial arts, procedures, paperwork, evidence handling, etc., etc., etc. All within the context of police departments with limited budgets and limited training resources, including officer time. Every hour an officer spends training is an hour they are not actually being a police officer.

How much training can we really expect them to have in any particular area? How much are we willing to pay for?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on January 27, 2016, 04:08:04 PM
Stop hiring Polish bully high school droputs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on January 27, 2016, 07:15:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 27, 2016, 04:08:04 PM
Stop hiring Polish bully high school droputs.

If we stopped doing that, police departments would probably be severely undermanned.  I doubt it is that much of a high-demand job...and the physical requirements/background checks probably keep out a fair amount of Amerikans these days.  And probably most of the type of people we would want to do the job, would probably quit after not too long.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 27, 2016, 07:49:04 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 27, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 26, 2016, 08:25:32 PM
How the fuck they training these guys.

They aren't.

I saw an interview recently that Sam harris did with an ex-SWAT guy, and he made a good point in regards to training, and the use of deadly force.

We require police officers to have training in a LOT of stuff. Weapons use, first aid, the law, martial arts, procedures, paperwork, evidence handling, etc., etc., etc. All within the context of police departments with limited budgets and limited training resources, including officer time. Every hour an officer spends training is an hour they are not actually being a police officer.

How much training can we really expect them to have in any particular area? How much are we willing to pay for?

While I don't disagree with the above, it's rather disingenuous. Cops have a culture now of going for the gun first when lesser means would have been more prudent. So, I don't buy what ex swat boy is selling. A complete jump to the highest level of force is not just a training issue, but also an internal culture issue. In general they have lost the ability/talent to use their best weapon....the one below their nose.

Come on, shooting a guy who's holding a knife to his own throat? What, were they trying to save him from hurting himself by shooting him. Christ, common sense. Kind of the reminds me of the SPD wood carver shooting.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UA0v1TF4Q34
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 08:00:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 27, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
They aren't.

I saw an interview recently that Sam harris did with an ex-SWAT guy, and he made a good point in regards to training, and the use of deadly force.

We require police officers to have training in a LOT of stuff. Weapons use, first aid, the law, martial arts, procedures, paperwork, evidence handling, etc., etc., etc. All within the context of police departments with limited budgets and limited training resources, including officer time. Every hour an officer spends training is an hour they are not actually being a police officer.

How much training can we really expect them to have in any particular area? How much are we willing to pay for?

Plus, basic police training in the US is very sketchy by European standards.  In the US, the standard for the police academy is 10 weeks.  In Germany, it is 1.5 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 08:08:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 27, 2016, 07:49:04 PM
While I don't disagree with the above, it's rather disingenuous. Cops have a culture now of going for the gun first when lesser means would have been more prudent. So, I don't buy what ex swat boy is selling. A complete jump to the highest level of force is not just a training issue, but also an internal culture issue. In general they have lost the ability/talent to use their best weapon....the one below their nose.

Come on, shooting a guy who's holding a knife to his own throat? What, were they trying to save him from hurting himself by shooting him. Christ, common sense. Kind of the reminds me of the SPD wood carver shooting.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UA0v1TF4Q34

I don't disagree with the argument that the police culture in the US is often rotten.  I think the problem stems more from the Thin Blue Line Syndrome, where the good majority of cops feel for some reason that they have to protect the scumbags and thugs in their ranks from justice because "they are one of us."  It's a lack of professional pride (proud professionals want to get rid of incompetents and criminals in their ranks, not shield them), and I think that that is, in large part, due to lack of basic training in more than rudimentary police skills.  Police Academies don't instill esprit de Corps, they instill Join the Union.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 27, 2016, 08:14:38 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 08:08:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 27, 2016, 07:49:04 PM
While I don't disagree with the above, it's rather disingenuous. Cops have a culture now of going for the gun first when lesser means would have been more prudent. So, I don't buy what ex swat boy is selling. A complete jump to the highest level of force is not just a training issue, but also an internal culture issue. In general they have lost the ability/talent to use their best weapon....the one below their nose.

Come on, shooting a guy who's holding a knife to his own throat? What, were they trying to save him from hurting himself by shooting him. Christ, common sense. Kind of the reminds me of the SPD wood carver shooting.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UA0v1TF4Q34

I don't disagree with the argument that the police culture in the US is often rotten.  I think the problem stems more from the Thin Blue Line Syndrome, where the good majority of cops feel for some reason that they have to protect the scumbags and thugs in their ranks from justice because "they are one of us."  It's a lack of professional pride (proud professionals want to get rid of incompetents and criminals in their ranks, not shield them), and I think that that is, in large part, due to lack of basic training in more than rudimentary police skills.  Police Academies don't instill esprit de Corps, they instill Join the Union.

"Thin Blue Line" is a term I revile when used in the context were talking about. The term itself, when not corrupted like it has been and is, is the very definition of espirit de corps. I agree with your statement.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 28, 2016, 07:03:40 AM
Wow, what happened to that cop in Seattle? He's not still working, right?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on January 28, 2016, 07:08:39 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 08:00:20 PM

Plus, basic police training in the US is very sketchy by European standards.  In the US, the standard for the police academy is 10 weeks.  In Germany, it is 1.5 years.

:o

It's 3 years here and there's currently a heated debate to cut it down to 2 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 09:12:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 08:00:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 27, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
They aren't.

I saw an interview recently that Sam harris did with an ex-SWAT guy, and he made a good point in regards to training, and the use of deadly force.

We require police officers to have training in a LOT of stuff. Weapons use, first aid, the law, martial arts, procedures, paperwork, evidence handling, etc., etc., etc. All within the context of police departments with limited budgets and limited training resources, including officer time. Every hour an officer spends training is an hour they are not actually being a police officer.

How much training can we really expect them to have in any particular area? How much are we willing to pay for?

Plus, basic police training in the US is very sketchy by European standards.  In the US, the standard for the police academy is 10 weeks.  In Germany, it is 1.5 years.

Yeah, he actually brought that up specifically now that you mention it. Basically, our rookie cops would not be allowed to direct traffic in most European countries.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 09:17:44 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 27, 2016, 07:49:04 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 27, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 26, 2016, 08:25:32 PM
How the fuck they training these guys.

They aren't.

I saw an interview recently that Sam harris did with an ex-SWAT guy, and he made a good point in regards to training, and the use of deadly force.

We require police officers to have training in a LOT of stuff. Weapons use, first aid, the law, martial arts, procedures, paperwork, evidence handling, etc., etc., etc. All within the context of police departments with limited budgets and limited training resources, including officer time. Every hour an officer spends training is an hour they are not actually being a police officer.

How much training can we really expect them to have in any particular area? How much are we willing to pay for?

While I don't disagree with the above, it's rather disingenuous. Cops have a culture now of going for the gun first when lesser means would have been more prudent. So, I don't buy what ex swat boy is selling. A complete jump to the highest level of force is not just a training issue, but also an internal culture issue. In general they have lost the ability/talent to use their best weapon....the one below their nose.

Come on, shooting a guy who's holding a knife to his own throat? What, were they trying to save him from hurting himself by shooting him. Christ, common sense. Kind of the reminds me of the SPD wood carver shooting.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UA0v1TF4Q34

I don't disagree with anything you say, except that whenever you talk about systemic problems, it isn't really useful to discuss particular examples. The reason there are *systemic* problems comes from systemic policies - like training, or the lack thereof.

I absolutely agree that the particular problem is as you describe - this escalation of force straight to deadly when other options (even if in some cases more risky) are not even considered. But THAT problem exists in great part because of a lack of training, IMO, which drives right back into culture.

I also think that we (as a society) do our normal stupid shit evaluating processes and policies emotionally, which in some cases results in us removing potential tools from the force spectrum as being too dangerous, when in fact it is entirely likely that statistically they are actually fine. We bitch about cops going right for the gun, but freak out when cops engage manually and there is a bad outcome.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Another problem is our aversion to having federal standards.  Germany can mandate that all police officers train for 1.5 years, but US cannot, at least not without all the usual paranoia that goes with everything that has "federal" in it.  So pretty much every locality is free to choose whether they want an old geezer insurance executive to go out and play with a gun in exchange for a donation, and it doesn't take many bad apple departments to give all the cops in US a bad name.  And even if some departments do set high standards, like many state police divisions, you're just pushing the bad apples over to some department with lower standards.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Another problem is our aversion to having federal standards.  Germany can mandate that all police officers train for 1.5 years, but US cannot, at least not without all the usual paranoia that goes with everything that has "federal" in it.  So pretty much every locality is free to choose whether they want an old geezer insurance executive to go out and play with a gun in exchange for a donation, and it doesn't take many bad apple departments to give all the cops in US a bad name.  And even if some departments do set high standards, like many state police divisions, you're just pushing the bad apples over to some department with lower standards.

That is a huge problem.

We've seen that locally, with a cop that was indicted on sexual assault charges having been fired from a police department in the next suburb over for incompetence and significant deficiencies in judgment getting hired almost immediately without any apparent ability for the new department to even check on his background with the old department. He ends up raping several women, basically.

Of course, that is what you get with police unions demanding that such checks be not allowed, because that would be unfairly targeting their members.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 10:28:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Another problem is our aversion to having federal standards.  Germany can mandate that all police officers train for 1.5 years, but US cannot, at least not without all the usual paranoia that goes with everything that has "federal" in it.  So pretty much every locality is free to choose whether they want an old geezer insurance executive to go out and play with a gun in exchange for a donation, and it doesn't take many bad apple departments to give all the cops in US a bad name.  And even if some departments do set high standards, like many state police divisions, you're just pushing the bad apples over to some department with lower standards.

That is a huge problem.

We've seen that locally, with a cop that was indicted on sexual assault charges having been fired from a police department in the next suburb over for incompetence and significant deficiencies in judgment getting hired almost immediately without any apparent ability for the new department to even check on his background with the old department. He ends up raping several women, basically.

Of course, that is what you get with police unions demanding that such checks be not allowed, because that would be unfairly targeting their members.

Did he get fired or did he resign? I've seen that happen with a bad Apple being allowed to resign, then get higher ed on elsewhere. Not for rape though, that's a Major oversight
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 10:28:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Another problem is our aversion to having federal standards.  Germany can mandate that all police officers train for 1.5 years, but US cannot, at least not without all the usual paranoia that goes with everything that has "federal" in it.  So pretty much every locality is free to choose whether they want an old geezer insurance executive to go out and play with a gun in exchange for a donation, and it doesn't take many bad apple departments to give all the cops in US a bad name.  And even if some departments do set high standards, like many state police divisions, you're just pushing the bad apples over to some department with lower standards.

That is a huge problem.

We've seen that locally, with a cop that was indicted on sexual assault charges having been fired from a police department in the next suburb over for incompetence and significant deficiencies in judgment getting hired almost immediately without any apparent ability for the new department to even check on his background with the old department. He ends up raping several women, basically.

Of course, that is what you get with police unions demanding that such checks be not allowed, because that would be unfairly targeting their members.

Did he get fired or did he resign? I've seen that happen with a bad Apple being allowed to resign, then get higher ed on elsewhere. Not for rape though, that's a Major oversight

Sorry, I did not explain that well.

In department A, he got terribly bad performance evaluations. Like, really really bad. Questioned his training, and most of all basically said he had terrible judgment and no business being a police officer. He left (of course) -not sure if he was actually fired, or just realized he needed to leave and resigned.

He was then hired by department B, literally in the next suburb over, and then proceeded to sexually assault several women who he pulled over and told they would be arrested if they did not do X, Y, and Z.

After he was indicted, some journalist checked his background, and the question arose "How the fuck did this guy get hired with a evaluation from his previous job that basically said he was terrible, and had no business being a police officer????"

Answer: Because department B was presumably not allowed to check department A. Although, to be fair, I am not sure if that was actually true, or that was just the spin the reporters put on it, and maybe department B just didn't bother to check?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 28, 2016, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 28, 2016, 07:08:39 AM
:o

It's 3 years here and there's currently a heated debate to cut it down to 2 years.

The three years number includes some high school time.  Someone entering the system with a high school diploma does 1.5 years in the academy, according to official stats.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on January 28, 2016, 01:27:08 PM
I just checked - city cops have a 5 month training program, while RCMP have 6 months.

But really - the majority of cops have a two year criminal justice diploma, or something equivalent, before being hired.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on January 28, 2016, 01:27:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 09:17:44 AM
We bitch about cops going right for the gun, but freak out when cops engage manually and there is a bad outcome.

True though I'm struggling to think of a recent example of collective bitching about that type of handling. Well maybe that school girl yanked out of her desk...though that would have been a bit extreme if the cop had shot her too. :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
Eric Garner?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on January 28, 2016, 01:41:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
Eric Garner?

True :blush:

Though I don't really understand how one could not be outraged by that. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 03:57:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2016, 01:41:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
Eric Garner?

True :blush:

Though I don't really understand how one could not be outraged by that. -_-

I don't like the outcome, but I recognize that any time your actions result in the police having to engage manually with you, there is going to be a percentage of outcomes that are not good.

As an example, we decided that police should never employ chokeholds, as they are too dangerous. Are they really though? I don't know - but I do know it *seems* like the decision to not use them is not really based on a sober analysis of the pros and cons of using them against some other option that meets the same force level and risk profile, but rather "ZOMG SOMEONE DIED STOP DOING THAT!"

Now, to the extent (IMO) there is legit outrage, it is over the choice to escalate that encounter to a point where taking Garner under control became necessary to begin with...once it was decided that such a response was needed, the outcome sucks, but isn't particularly outrageous. Bad things become very possible when you start resisting police officers to the extent that they reach the point where they decide they need to engage with you manually. That is an inherently very dangerous proposition for everyone involved.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 28, 2016, 04:15:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2016, 04:07:35 PM
So we are supposed to just wipe our hands clean and say, oh well, death is always an outcome if you don't do what the police tell you to?

Of course not - how in the world did you get that out of what I posted?

I do think we should say "When you force the police to exercise option Y to deal with you, then there is a chance that the outcome could be terrible for you. The fact that out of some set of interactions it turns out that in fact said bad outcome happens does not invalidate the use of that option in all cases".

If tasing someone, as an example, has a 1% chance of simply killing them due to some interaction with the particulars of the target (bad heart, pacemaker, whatever), then we should not all act stunned when in 1% of the cases that a taser is used someone dies, nor should we then conclude that nobody should use tasers anymore because it turns out they are not all that non-lethal after all.

Especially if that means that in some percentage if interactions that COULD have been handled with a taser, now will be handled with a pistol instead, which has more like a 70% fatality rate.

The police, regardless, are still responsible for exercising reasonable judgement in the use of whatever continuum of force options they elect. My point is simply that reducing the number of options should be done carefully, and will have consequences.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on January 28, 2016, 04:21:52 PM
Sorry, I deleted that post, though clearly not quick enough, as I fundamentally disagree with what you posted in that post I replied to, so I don't find there to be much use in discussing further. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on January 28, 2016, 05:16:29 PM
Didn't know the thing about how little training our cops get compared to those in Europe.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 28, 2016, 05:43:42 PM
It seems like the most important thing they would need to know--how to de-escalate a violent situation--they spend less than one day on that in the police academy.

I learned more about it watching Andy Griffith.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 28, 2016, 05:43:42 PM
It seems like the most important thing they would need to know--how to de-escalate a violent situation--they spend less than one day on that in the police academy.
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on January 28, 2016, 08:52:07 PM
Back when I was around 18, and had my career sights on being a police officer, I attended a "community police academy" for my hometown (basically a night per week over several weeks, teaching about they do policing...and fun stuff like getting pepper sprayed).  Part of that program was going on a ride along...distinctly memorable experience.  :P

The officer I rode with essentially cursed at every person/vehicle that so much as slightly crossed his path (e.g., if he had to slow down for someone in a crosswalk, he spouted a stream of obscenties...not directly to the person, just to himself/the universe), road-raged/pursued...but did not pull over someone on the freeway he apparently took a momentary dislike to.  And while doing a blood run (which seemed to take nearly an hour at the local blood bank)...spent most of that time hitting on the nurse/receptionist there, while I waited around bored out of my mind.

The ride-along concluded with him asking me "hey, please don't tell anyone about all this, ok?"  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 28, 2016, 08:54:19 PM
Moral of the Story: Tonitrus will only keep your secrets for a maximum of 20 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on January 28, 2016, 08:58:10 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 28, 2016, 08:54:19 PM
Moral of the Story: Tonitrus will only keep your secrets for a maximum of 20 years.

Which means he is probably retired by now anyway.   :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2016, 09:39:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 28, 2016, 05:16:29 PM
Didn't know the thing about how little training our cops get compared to those in Europe.

Maybe there's an occasional Maryberry R.F.D. out there that runs a correspondence course for 10 weeks at its own liability peril, but in the age of accreditation the majority of academies require substantially more time, and can depend on mandatory state requirements, CALEA certification and the type of agency.

QuoteOverall, an estimated 57,000 recruits entered basic training programs during 2005. On average these programs included 761 hours of classroom training. A third of academies had an additional mandatory field training component with an average length of 453 hours.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/slleta06.pdf
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2016, 09:41:47 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 28, 2016, 05:43:42 PM
It seems like the most important thing they would need to know--how to de-escalate a violent situation--they spend less than one day on that in the police academy.
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.

That's hiring and supervision, the other 2/3rds of the problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2016, 09:47:14 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on January 28, 2016, 08:52:07 PM
Back when I was around 18, and had my career sights on being a police officer, I attended a "community police academy" for my hometown (basically a night per week over several weeks, teaching about they do policing...and fun stuff like getting pepper sprayed).  Part of that program was going on a ride along...distinctly memorable experience.  :P

The officer I rode with essentially cursed at every person/vehicle that so much as slightly crossed his path (e.g., if he had to slow down for someone in a crosswalk, he spouted a stream of obscenties...not directly to the person, just to himself/the universe), road-raged/pursued...but did not pull over someone on the freeway he apparently took a momentary dislike to.  And while doing a blood run (which seemed to take nearly an hour at the local blood bank)...spent most of that time hitting on the nurse/receptionist there, while I waited around bored out of my mind.

The ride-along concluded with him asking me "hey, please don't tell anyone about all this, ok?"  :lol:

Heh; IN MY DAY the only officers that were allowed to participate in the Ride-Along program were also in the FTO program. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2016, 09:41:47 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 28, 2016, 05:43:42 PM
It seems like the most important thing they would need to know--how to de-escalate a violent situation--they spend less than one day on that in the police academy.
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.

That's hiring and supervision, the other 2/3rds of the problem.

Disagree. Hiring/supervision/union The other 3/4 of the problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2016, 10:03:24 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 09:58:14 PM
Disagree. Hiring/supervision/union The other 3/4 of the problem.

Considering how joining the union is a condition of employment IN REAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS, it would fall under hiring, and therefore we're back at 2/3rds. 

You may now fuck your own face.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 10:07:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2016, 10:03:24 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 09:58:14 PM
Disagree. Hiring/supervision/union The other 3/4 of the problem.

Considering how joining the union is a condition of employment IN REAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS, it would fall under hiring, and therefore we're back at 2/3rds. 

You may now fuck your own face.
Still disagree
Post entry closed shop eh? Hopefully that will get crushed. So fuck a duck :nelson:

Advantage Fed's .
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 28, 2016, 10:08:38 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 28, 2016, 08:54:19 PM
Moral of the Story: Tonitrus will only keep your secrets for a maximum of 20 years.

Shit. I got like fifteen left.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 28, 2016, 11:35:41 PM
Interesting. Did you tell him what happened in Thailand? :shifty:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 29, 2016, 10:20:43 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.

As an 11B4V?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on January 29, 2016, 04:01:59 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Another problem is our aversion to having federal standards.  Germany can mandate that all police officers train for 1.5 years, but US cannot, at least not without all the usual paranoia that goes with everything that has "federal" in it.  So pretty much every locality is free to choose whether they want an old geezer insurance executive to go out and play with a gun in exchange for a donation, and it doesn't take many bad apple departments to give all the cops in US a bad name.  And even if some departments do set high standards, like many state police divisions, you're just pushing the bad apples over to some department with lower standards.

Why is there always an assumption (regardless of the subject) that Federal standards will necessarily be better standards?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on January 29, 2016, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on January 29, 2016, 04:01:59 PM

Why is there always an assumption (regardless of the subject) that Federal standards will necessarily be better standards?

I don't think it is that so much as dealing with one standard is much more efficient than dealing with 51 different standards. I mean in my wife's company there is a huge segment of the company whose entire function is to sort through 51 different sets of regulations.

But we pride ourselves on our bureaucracy and inefficiency. That gives everything a certain comforting inertia so no tyrannical leader can execute his or her evil plan very quickly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 29, 2016, 04:12:36 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on January 29, 2016, 04:01:59 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 28, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Another problem is our aversion to having federal standards.  Germany can mandate that all police officers train for 1.5 years, but US cannot, at least not without all the usual paranoia that goes with everything that has "federal" in it.  So pretty much every locality is free to choose whether they want an old geezer insurance executive to go out and play with a gun in exchange for a donation, and it doesn't take many bad apple departments to give all the cops in US a bad name.  And even if some departments do set high standards, like many state police divisions, you're just pushing the bad apples over to some department with lower standards.

Why is there always an assumption (regardless of the subject) that Federal standards will necessarily be better standards?
Because they usually are.  Especially on average.  Truly especially at improving worst-case outcomes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 29, 2016, 04:14:34 PM
"Federal Standards" is usually taken as a codeword for "keep the ignorant hicks under control".

But I guess our 51 standard system sort of works. It could be worse. My wife is in the next room right now trying to sort through European VAT regulations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on January 29, 2016, 04:18:17 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 29, 2016, 04:14:34 PM
My wife is in the next room right now trying to sort through European VAT regulations.

My condolences. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 29, 2016, 10:20:43 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.

As an 11B4V?

Nice  :(

No, I'm pretty good at gab, sorry to disappoint.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on January 29, 2016, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 29, 2016, 10:20:43 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.

As an 11B4V?

Nice  :(

No, I'm pretty good at gab, sorry to disappoint.

11B4V, Grumbler was projecting and only highlighting is own weaknesses.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on January 29, 2016, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 29, 2016, 10:20:43 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 28, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
You can only teach so much. If the cop has a fucked attitude, badge heavy, socially retarded, God complex, arrogant, lack of respect for the populace...etc, no amount of training will fix it. He just doesn't need to be a cop. They do have their uses, however.

As an 11B4V?

Nice  :(

No, I'm pretty good at gab, sorry to disappoint.

11B4V, Grumbler was projecting and only highlighting is own weaknesses.

He hurt my feelings. Hope it wasn't because I hate that steaming pile of poo,Babylon 5.  :lmfao:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 29, 2016, 05:39:14 PM
Oh, come on, B5 isn't that bad.  Yes, in hindsight, what passed of as deep now looks as complicated as a child's cartoon, but it wasn't bad at all for its time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 09:06:49 PM
Is it really so hard to believe that a guy named B4 is jealous of B5?  That's like a whole nother "B".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 11:03:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 09:06:49 PM
Is it really so hard to believe that a guy named B4 is jealous of B5?  That's like a whole nother "B".

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on January 30, 2016, 07:52:01 PM
Bester violated everybody's rights. My hero. :wub:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on January 30, 2016, 11:33:32 PM
I have reached the conclusion that the police should shoot everybody but me.  Then they all kill themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 30, 2016, 11:45:28 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2016, 11:33:32 PM
I have reached the conclusion that the police should shoot everybody but me.  Then they all kill themselves.

Why do you wish to be punished like that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on January 31, 2016, 11:13:24 AM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/01/27/chicago-police-officer-in-fatal-shooting-of-quintonio-legrier-bettie-jones-files-suit-against-teens-estate/

QuoteChicago Police Officer In Fatal Shooting Of Quintonio LeGrier, Bettie Jones To File Suit Against Teen's Estate

(CBS) –The Chicago Police officer accused of killing 19-year-old Quintonio LeGrier is suing the teen's estate.

CBS 2's Suzanne Le Mignot has the latest developments.

City attorneys were tight lipped leaving the status hearing in the cases of Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie Jones vs. the city of Chicago, but the attorney for the family of Bettie Jones, Larry Rogers, Jr., is talking.

"We've tried to reiterate at every hearing, that we will resist and object to the entry of any protective order, over what we think is the public's information," Rogers said.

So far, Larry Rogers says he's received 43 dash cam videos, mostly showing the scene aftermath. He's also seeking other videos from the area, text messages between Officer Robert Rialmo and his partner from that night and the release of IPRA's file on the case within 45 days.

Jones was shot accidentally by Chicago Police Officer Robert Rialmo. Rialmo was responding to a domestic disturbance involving 19 year-old Quintonio LeGrier, who was also shot and killed by the officer. On that night, LeGrier called 911 three times before police arrived.

Rogers says he's now requesting the names and titles of the dispatchers who took LeGrier's calls.

"For them to hang up on him, we want to know what that call taker was thinking," Rogers said. "How could she possibly think that was the proper way to handle someone who was in need of police assistance?"

Meantime, the attorney for Officer Robert Rialmo, Joel Brodsky, says he'll be filing a counter claim against the estate of Quintonio LeGrier, because LeGrier, attacked the officer. The suit will be filed on the grounds of assault and emotional distress.

LeGrier family attorney, Bill Foutris, calls the move a desperate and baseless attempt to deflect attention from the fact Rialmo shot LeGrier four times in the back without justification.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 31, 2016, 12:36:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 05:26:37 PM
He hurt my feelings. Hope it wasn't because I hate that steaming pile of poo,Babylon 5.  :lmfao:

Wait... this is from a guy who called The Big Bang Theory a "great show?"  Sorry, Timmay, but that statement disqualifies you from having credible opinions on TV shows.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 12:55:04 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 31, 2016, 12:36:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 29, 2016, 05:26:37 PM
He hurt my feelings. Hope it wasn't because I hate that steaming pile of poo,Babylon 5.  :lmfao:

Wait... this is from a guy who called The Big Bang Theory a "great show?"  Sorry, Timmay, but that statement disqualifies you from having credible opinions on TV shows.  :P
It still rates in the mid 80's. So, you would have had more credibility in your statement to bring up Django Unchained, which I thought sucked. Therefore you should be disqualified from having a credible opinion about other folks opinions. But then, each to their own. :blurgh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 31, 2016, 05:05:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 12:55:04 PM
It still rates in the mid 80's. So, you would have had more credibility in your statement to bring up Django Unchained, which I thought sucked. Therefore you should be disqualified from having a credible opinion about other folks opinions. But then, each to their own. :blurgh:

Why would I care that a show rates in the mid-80s?  The IMDB ratings for B5 and BBT are very close, so that doesn't mean anything.  Why are you asserting that only people who bring up Django Unchained are qualified to have a credible opinion?  Especially if DU sucked, as you assert?  You make no sense, kemo sahbee.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 31, 2016, 05:20:32 PM
Most people who rate shows are fans, hence a lot have inflated ratings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 31, 2016, 05:05:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 12:55:04 PM
It still rates in the mid 80's. So, you would have had more credibility in your statement to bring up Django Unchained, which I thought sucked. Therefore you should be disqualified from having a credible opinion about other folks opinions. But then, each to their own. :blurgh:

Why would I care that a show rates in the mid-80s?  The IMDB ratings for B5 and BBT are very close, so that doesn't mean anything.  Why are you asserting that only people who bring up Django Unchained are qualified to have a credible opinion?  Especially if DU sucked, as you assert?  You make no sense, kemo sahbee.

You like Babylon 5, it's rated in the 80's. My opinion it's not a great show.

I like BBT, it's rated in the 80's. Your opinion it's not a great show.

You stated
Quote

Wait... this is from a guy who called The Big Bang Theory a "great show?"  Sorry, Timmay, but that statement disqualifies you from having credible opinions on TV shows.


Ill play;
As you asserted above, my opinion has no credibility on TV shows because I think BBT is a great show.

Apparently your opinion, which does not jive with mine on B5, also has no credibility on TV shows.

So your original statement makes no sense.

:blurgh: :moon:



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on January 31, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
Babylon 5 is great!!!






If you need a cure for insomnia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on January 31, 2016, 08:23:41 PM
I liked B5 and BBT. What is wrong with me???
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on January 31, 2016, 08:35:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 31, 2016, 08:23:41 PM
I liked B5 and BBT. What is wrong with me???
How much time you got?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 31, 2016, 08:44:33 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 31, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
Babylon 5 is great!!!

If you need a cure for insomnia.

Yeah I never made it through season 1.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 08:53:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 31, 2016, 08:23:41 PM
I liked B5 and BBT. What is wrong with me???

Nothing
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on January 31, 2016, 09:02:16 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 07:52:11 PM
You like Babylon 5, it's rated in the 80's. My opinion it's not a great show.

I like BBT, it's rated in the 80's. Your opinion it's not a great show.

You stated
Quote

Wait... this is from a guy who called The Big Bang Theory a "great show?"  Sorry, Timmay, but that statement disqualifies you from having credible opinions on TV shows.


Ill play;
As you asserted above, my opinion has no credibility on TV shows because I think BBT is a great show.

Apparently your opinion, which does not jive with mine on B5, also has no credibility on TV shows.

So your original statement makes no sense.

:blurgh: :moon:

I think you are taking a throwaway line way too seriously.  Let's return the thread to its regularly scheduled strawmen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 09:03:32 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 31, 2016, 09:02:16 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 31, 2016, 07:52:11 PM
You like Babylon 5, it's rated in the 80's. My opinion it's not a great show.

I like BBT, it's rated in the 80's. Your opinion it's not a great show.

You stated
Quote

Wait... this is from a guy who called The Big Bang Theory a "great show?"  Sorry, Timmay, but that statement disqualifies you from having credible opinions on TV shows.


Ill play;
As you asserted above, my opinion has no credibility on TV shows because I think BBT is a great show.

Apparently your opinion, which does not jive with mine on B5, also has no credibility on TV shows.

So your original statement makes no sense.

:blurgh: :moon:

I think you are taking a throwaway line way too seriously.  Let's return the thread to its regularly scheduled strawmen.

Sounds good.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 31, 2016, 10:20:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 08:44:33 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 31, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
Babylon 5 is great!!!

If you need a cure for insomnia.

Yeah I never made it through season 1.
Season 1 is a set-up season  It builds up to something later.  Season 2 picks up its tempo, season 3 climaxes, season 4 prematurely comes to a resolution, and season 5 desperately tries to crank more out when it's obviously not up for it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on February 01, 2016, 03:39:40 PM
Quote
http://news.yahoo.com/white-cop-sue-estate-black-teen-killed-063458935.html (http://news.yahoo.com/white-cop-sue-estate-black-teen-killed-063458935.html)

Chicago (AFP) - A white police officer plans to sue the estate of a black teenager he shot dead because he was traumatized by the fact that he accidentally killed the teen's neighbor in the incident, his lawyer said.

"The damage is my client feels horrible that Bettie Jones is dead because of the actions he was forced to take," attorney Joe Brodsky told AFP.

"It's affected him greatly. It's a burden he's going to have to carry for the rest of his life."

The December 26 shooting came as the US city was reeling from a series of incidents in which police were accused of being too ready to pull the trigger.

The family of Quintonio LeGrier, 19, has repeatedly said there was no reason why police should have opened fire when responding to a domestic disturbance at their home. They have sued both the city and the officer who shot him: Robert Rialmo, 27.

A wrongful death suit filed by LeGrier's father, Antonio, argues that the teen "never had possession or control of a weapon" and was not a threat to Rialmo or anyone else at any point.

Rialmo was standing outside when he opened fire on LeGrier, who was inside the building, the lawsuit said. Antonio LeGrier is also suing for wrongful arrest after police made him leave his dying son in order to file a statement about the incident.

City officials have apologized for the death of Jones, a 55-year old mother of five, but have said LeGrier's shooting was justified.

The city has released few details about the incident except to say that LeGrier was brandishing a baseball bat when he was shot after his father called for help in the early hours.

LeGrier, an engineering student who was struggling with mental health problems, had called 911 for help several times earlier that evening but the dispatcher did not send an officer to the house until his father called.

Brodsky said that makes the incident a "double tragedy because if my client had advance knowledge he was dealing with a mentally ill person he may have handled this in a different way."

- 'Winning the lottery' -

The US Justice Department is investigating how Chicago police use force after the death of another black teenager, Laquan McDonald, who was shot 16 times as he was walking away from officers.

Brodsky insists this case is nothing like that of McDonald, an incident caught on camera which sparked mass protest and led embattled Mayor Rahm Emanuel to fire Chicago's police chief and reform the department.

"He didn't kill him like he murdered him -- he shot to save his own life," Brodsky said in a telephone interview.

"Somebody is swinging a baseball bat and they're two feet above you, you're a pumpkin."

Brodsky insists that the outrage which the incident provoked would be muted if people knew the facts of the case.

Rialmo, a former marine who has only been on the force for three years, backed away as LeGrier approached and repeatedly ordered him to drop the bat before opening fire, Brodsky said.

"The round that tragically killed Bettie Jones was a through-and-through," which passed through LeGrier's body before striking Jones, Brodsky said.

"It's not like he shot a spray of bullets. He couldn't see through LeGrier... he didn't know she was there."

Rialmo also showed restraint by only firing six rounds from a gun which has 16 bullets, Brodsky said.

Brodsky said it was also important to note that the lawsuit is in fact a countersuit.

"Something that bothers Officer Rialmo and myself about the way this is going is the family filed the lawsuit before the funeral," Brodsky said.

"It seems like people believe now that if you have a family member killed by a police officer it's the functional equivalent of winning the lottery... ever since the City of Chicago paid $5 million to the McDonald family that seems to be the attitude and it's just crazy."


Slimey lawyer.  :x


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on February 01, 2016, 04:29:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 31, 2016, 10:20:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 08:44:33 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 31, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
Babylon 5 is great!!!

If you need a cure for insomnia.

Yeah I never made it through season 1.
Season 1 is a set-up season  It builds up to something later.  Season 2 picks up its tempo, season 3 climaxes, season 4 prematurely comes to a resolution, and season 5 desperately tries to crank more out when it's obviously not up for it.

Do you prematurely come long after you've climaxed? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 01, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
I think he's saying a good show can hold the climax for several seasons, like Sting.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 11, 2016, 01:03:24 AM
Christ :(

Two deputies killed.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/harford-county-deputies-involved-in-shooting/37921210

Quote"(The shooter) just took out his gun and shot him in the head right after the officer asked him, 'How's your day?'" witness Sophia Faulkner said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 11, 2016, 10:22:27 PM
Dispatch's role in this will come out later, but it sounds like the first deputy fucked up.  You don't sit down next the guy on that kind of call.  But that's 30 years and working courthouse security for you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on February 22, 2016, 07:52:32 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-rally-nyc-around-us-over-officers-conviction-210615652.html

QuoteThousands rally in NYC, around US over officer's conviction

About 10,000 supporters of a former police officer convicted of fatally shooting an unarmed man in a darkened stairwell rallied in New York in one of several demonstrations held across the country Saturday to protest his conviction.

Peter Liang, who has said the shooting was an accident, was convicted of manslaughter this month in the death of Akai Gurley, who was fatally shot in 2014 inside a New York City public housing building.

Many of Liang's supporters say he is being scapegoated because of anger over other police shootings in New York and across the country and that he has been treated unfairly because he is Asian-American.

The protest in Brooklyn was one of more than 30 held around the U.S., organizers said. About 2,000 people marched in Philadelphia, and hundreds gathered at smaller rallies from Phoenix to Ann Arbor, Michigan. The events were organized by the "Coalition of Justice for Liang," a national group formed to support the officer.

"No scapegoat! No scapegoat!" protesters in New York shouted as the crowd descended on Cadman Plaza, just outside the federal courthouse in Brooklyn. They carried signs declaring Liang's prosecution "selective justice."

The 28-year-old Liang, who was fired immediately after a jury convicted him, faces up to 15 years in prison.

He testified that he fired his gun after being frightened by a noise. Prosecutors argued that Liang's actions were reckless and he shouldn't have had his gun out or the finger on the trigger. They also said he did nothing to help Gurley as he lay dying on the floor.

"We're here today to let people know that Chinese-Americans count as well," said protester Don Lee, a candidate for New York's state Assembly from lower Manhattan.

Lee added, "It is a tragedy that Akai Gurley was shot and killed. ... But this tragedy's been compounded by another tragedy, that Peter Liang, in an accident, is going to go to jail for up to 15 years."

A few dozen people held a counter-protest in New York on Saturday, held across the street from the larger protest as officers with plastic handcuffs and batons stood between them.

Soraya Soi Free participated in the counter-protest. She argued that Liang was clearly not a scapegoat because he was tried by a jury of his peers, and she did not approve of the protest supporting him.

"This protest is definitely an insult to Akai Gurley's family," she said.

Liang was convicted Feb. 11 on manslaughter and official-misconduct charges. He is scheduled to be sentenced April 14.

Liang's attorney, Robert Brown, attended the Brooklyn rally and said the community's support was "very uplifting" to Liang.

Brown said he is making motions to have the verdict set aside.

The shooting happened during a year of nationwide debate over police killings of black men. Activists have looked to Liang's trial as a counterweight to cases in which grand juries have declined to indict officers, including the cases of Michael Brown in Missouri and Eric Garner in New York. Like Gurley, Brown and Garner were black and unarmed. Liang is Chinese-American.

Besides the protests in New York, Philadelphia and Michigan, organizers said rallies took place in dozens of other cities in the U.S. Saturday including Los Angeles and San Francisco.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2016, 08:03:09 AM
We live in a weird time when shooting an unarmed person to death because you 'heard a noise' and being convicted of manslaughter is seen as a great injustice.

Again what kind of training are these police officer's receiving? I think they, and the public, are being horribly served.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on February 22, 2016, 09:06:28 AM
Yeah, the only thing here where race played a part (from my point of view) is that because he was Asian American, these protests are happening.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 22, 2016, 09:17:32 AM
I think, in a vacuum, this is the kind of case where the police department and district attorney would try to sweep it under the rug. The officer wasn't acting maliciously and it easily could be seen as inadequate training.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on February 22, 2016, 09:24:19 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/09/nyregion/officer-peter-liang-in-emotional-testimony-describes-the-night-of-a-fatal-shooting.html?_r=0

QuoteOfficer Liang testified that after he and his partner, Shaun Landau, arrived on the eighth floor of the Pink Houses on Nov. 20, 2014, he opened the door to the stairwell, which was pitch black, and he heard a noise.

Officer Liang said he flinched.

"I heard something on my left side; it was a quick sound and it just startled me," he said. "And the gun just went off after I tensed up."

He said he had no idea anyone had been hurt. Immediately after the shot was fired, he returned to the hallway, where he and his partner debated who would call their supervisor to report that a shot had been fired, as officers are required to do. Neither did.

It was only after Officer Liang went into the stairwell to look for the bullet, he testified, that he heard someone crying, went down the stairs and realized that a man had been shot.

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Throughout the trial, the prosecution has drubbed Officer Liang for having his gun unholstered when he opened the stairwell door that night, characterizing him as reckless for doing so in a place full of families going about their lives.

But in his testimony, Officer Liang said he believed it was warranted. He and his partner were headed to the roof of the building when the gun, which he said he pointed downward for safety, went off. "There are bullet holes in the roof, there is evidence of drugs, there is drug dealing, people get assaulted and raped in these areas," he said. In the unlighted stairwell, it felt necessary.

Under direct questioning and under cross-examination, Officer Liang seemed to blame a lack of Police Academy training in CPR for why he did not help Mr. Gurley, as is required of officers. At the academy, from which he graduated in 2013 with top scores, CPR training was only cursory, Officer Liang said.

The statements echoed the testimony of Officer Landau, his partner and academy classmate, who received immunity for his grand jury testimony. Last week on the stand, Officer Landau described being fed answers during the CPR test at the academy and practicing compressions for just two minutes on a dummy.

Also last week, Mr. Gurley's girlfriend, Melissa Butler, described how Officer Liang continued past her as she tried to revive Mr. Gurley, kneeling over him "in a puddle of blood and urine," she said. Ms. Butler was coached in CPR by a 911 operator who had been called by a neighbor.

"I thought," Officer Liang said on Monday, "she was more qualified than me."

The prosecution has argued that in the moments after the shooting, the officer neglected his duties and focused instead on whether his mistake would cost him his job.

Officer Liang said he did try to help. "I said, 'Oh my god, someone is hit!'" he said. "I went over the radio, 'Pink Post One, male shot, call a bus," he added, referring to the slang term for an ambulance.

Transcripts from radio calls that night that have been introduced into evidence do not show he called for an ambulance. His defense has argued that police radio reception is spotty, particularly in stairwells.

Officer Liang described struggling in the subsequent moments. He collapsed in a hallway after other officers arrived on the scene. A lieutenant relieved him of his gun, as is police protocol following a weapons discharge.

"I got to the hallway of that floor," he said. "Everything just sunk in. I was thinking about everything that happened. I just couldn't believe someone was hit. I just broke down."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 22, 2016, 10:52:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 22, 2016, 08:03:09 AM
We live in a weird time when shooting an unarmed person to death because you 'heard a noise' and being convicted of manslaughter is seen as a great injustice.

Again what kind of training are these police officer's receiving? I think they, and the public, are being horribly served.

"Heard a noise".  Bad enough you're that twitchy, you have no business being in that uniform...but two officers with less than two years' experience--probationary officers--patrolling together?  Are you fucking kidding me.  FTOs and sergeants would have run up one side of your ass and down the other for drawing your weapon in the kind situation this NYPD officer did. 

But that was 20 years ago, and those guys are gone or dead; today's sergeants are Iraq War vets that treat each tour like it's a goddamned sweep and clear in Operation Resolve. 

Maybe after enough cops go to jail, they'll finally begin figure it out.   But I doubt it.   



Anyway, reading about the story in the NYT I saw this link-- 
http://www.buzzfeed.com/joelanderson/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-black-cop-in-baltimore#.dhn5XBnE9

So many names from the way-back machine.  They don't make them like Lenny Hamm anymore.  That generation of African-American police leadership that came up in the 1970s was nothing short of exceptional. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on February 23, 2016, 12:25:01 AM
They really should stop picking ex-military for police. I know both police and the army have guns and silly costumes, but beyond that their missions are quite different.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on February 23, 2016, 03:29:01 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 22, 2016, 10:52:30 PM
Anyway, reading about the story in the NYT I saw this link-- 
http://www.buzzfeed.com/joelanderson/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-black-cop-in-baltimore#.dhn5XBnE9

So many names from the way-back machine.  They don't make them like Lenny Hamm anymore.  That generation of African-American police leadership that came up in the 1970s was nothing short of exceptional.

Interesting even if I didn't make it all the way through. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 28, 2016, 08:09:57 PM
Fucking tragic  :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/28/us/prince-william-county-officer-shooting/
Quote


(CNN)—A police department in a Washington suburb is mourning an officer who was killed during her first day on the job.

Ashley Guindon, 28, of the Prince William County Police Department was fatally shot Saturday in Woodbridge, Virginia, while answering a domestic call in which two other officers were wounded and the suspect's wife was killed, county police Chief Steve Hudson said at a news conference on Sunday. Guindon had taken the oath of office on Friday.


"The Prince William County Police Department is in deep mourning," Hudson said. "This is a sad day for everybody in this room, a sad day for law enforcement."

Ronald Williams Hamilton, 32, is accused of shooting the three police officers as they approached the front door of his house about 5:30 p.m. Saturday, Hudson said. He surrendered to backup officers who arrived after the three officers were shot, Hudson said.

Hamilton's wife, Crystal Hamilton, 29, was found dead inside the house, Hudson said.

"The investigation revealed that the accused and his wife were involved in a verbal altercation which escalated physically," he said. "The wife was able to contact police; however, before officers could arrive, she was allegedly shot and killed by the accused."

The couple's 11-year-old son fled the residence before the shooting, the chief said. Family and friends are caring for the boy, he said.

Two guns, a .45-caliber pistol and a rifle, were found in the house, Hudson said.

Hamilton is an active duty Army staff sergeant assigned to the Joint Staff Support Center at the Pentagon, said Cindy Your of the Defense Information Systems Agency at Fort Meade, Maryland.

Hamilton is charged with one count of capital murder of a police officer, one count of first-degree murder, two counts of malicious wounding of a police officer and two counts of use of a firearm in commission of a felony.

He is being held without bond and is scheduled to be arraigned Monday.

Commonwealth Attorney Paul Ebert said he "likely" to seek the death penalty but hasn't made a decision yet.

Wounded were Officer Jesse Hempen, 31, who had been with the department for more than eight years, and Officer David McKeown, 33, a 10-year veteran. They were taken to Inova Fairfax Hospital and "We're led to believe their recovery will be full," Hudson said.

A day before the shooting, the department tweeted a photo of Guindon after her swearing-in.

Hudson said Guindon interned with the Prince William County Police Department while she attended graduate school. She officially joined the police force in 2015 and finished training in June, but she took some time off for "personal reasons."

She decided to come back and was sworn in to the department on Friday.

"We were struck by her passion to do this job," the chief said. "She couldn't get it out of her blood. She clearly had a passion to serve others that went beyond herself."

Before Saturday, the department has had three officers killed in the line of duty since 1970, it said on its website.

Quote
Prince William Co PD
✔  ‎‎@PWCPoliceDept 

Welcome Officers Steven Kendall & Ashley Guindon who were sworn in today & begin their shifts this weekend.Be safe!

7:40 AM - 27 Feb 2016
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on March 14, 2016, 06:54:06 PM
Not a shooting, but just ridiculous.
Vid is on the page.
Quote

FORT WORTH
An officer has been pulled from patrol while police conduct an internal investigation into a video that shows him pepper-spraying passing motorcyclists on a highway.

W. Figueroa, an officer with Fort Worth since 2009, was placed on administrative duties Monday afternoon.

Figueroa had pulled over a red pickup truck Sunday afternoon after it was allegedly blocking traffic and recording "motorcycles driving recklessly."

As a caravan of motorcyclists began to pass, an officer emerges from the patrol car with what appears to be a canister of pepper spray in his right hand.

A video shot by one of the bikers with his GoPro camera shows the officer spraying at passing motorcyclists.

Chase Stone, president of an East Texas motorcycle "team" known as the East Texas Heat, posted the video on his Facebook page, writing that he believed the officer's intention was to cause an accident.

"Law enforcement is here to protect and serve, not intentionally try to harm others," Stone wrote on his Facebook post in asking others to share the video. "***THIS WAS BEYOND DANGEROUS***."

Stone said an estimated 200 motorcyclists joined in a "Welcome Back Weather" ride to commemorate the beginning of biking season.

Jack Kinney, another member of the East Texas Heat, shot the video on his GoPro camera and said he had no idea what he had captured until late Sunday night, when he and Stone reviewed the footage.

"If there's one thing I've learned, film everything. You can delete it later if nothing is on your camera," Kinney said.

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article65967552.html#storylink=cpy


http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article65967552.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on March 31, 2016, 05:56:00 AM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12439447_10102212032331273_2885665973265449900_n.jpg?oh=ebbc936bd1ef8363b54e6c60d4d85d65&oe=57747DA8)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 31, 2016, 06:22:29 AM
But we have a black president, so it's no big deal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 06:29:28 AM
garbo, could you explain, in simple words, what is the message from that side by side comparison?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 31, 2016, 06:31:58 AM
A search for "Three black teenagers" generates police mugshots.
A search for "Three white teenagers" generates fun!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 06:34:15 AM
Incidentally, three Asian teenagers have three Asian girls naked.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 06:35:49 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 31, 2016, 06:31:58 AM
A search for "Three black teenagers" generates police mugshots.
A search for "Three white teenagers" generates fun!

I got it. But what's the underlying message (other than "Oh look!"). Is it that google uses some sort of faulty algorithm or that these search results actually reflect how frequent these pics are? So, in other words, is it google that is racist or the reality?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on March 31, 2016, 06:41:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 06:35:49 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 31, 2016, 06:31:58 AM
A search for "Three black teenagers" generates police mugshots.
A search for "Three white teenagers" generates fun!

I got it. But what's the underlying message (other than "Oh look!"). Is it that google uses some sort of faulty algorithm or that these search results actually reflect how frequent these pics are? So, in other words, is it google that is racist or the reality?

It would be a reflection of how people speak about those two groups (which in speak including news media) online. So in other words, none of the conclusions that you drew.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 06:44:17 AM
Or it could be that black teenagers commit more crimes than white teenagers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on March 31, 2016, 06:48:42 AM
Google images, afaik, isn't supposed to be a viewer of who instigates more crimes. :hmm:

Leaving aside bit about crimes committed as I don't have any stats on that other than I know that yes, as with adults, proportionally more black teens are arrested than white teens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 31, 2016, 07:01:23 AM
I googled "Polish cuckold wine glass" and got inconsistent results.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on March 31, 2016, 07:23:12 AM
I know what happened. You forgot ice cube.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 07:31:15 AM
QuotePolice: Man punched officer, shouted 'Black Lives Matter'
Updated: March 30, 2016 — 8:06 AM EDT

BELLEVUE, Pa. (AP) - Police say a man punched a suburban Pittsburgh officer who was sitting in a parked police cruiser then yelled "Black Lives Matter" as he was taken into custody.

Twenty-three-year-old Domenick Hoy has been jailed on aggravated assault, resisting arrest and other charges pending a preliminary hearing April 7.

Bellevue police say Hoy was running and screaming toward the officer's car as it was parked across from the police station on Thursday night. When the officer rolled down his window to ask Hoy what was wrong, police say the Bellevue man punched the officer, breaking his nose.

Online court records don't list an attorney for Hoy.

Bellevue is a tiny borough just west of Pittsburgh.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160330_ap_8ca1fed9635945098018ef05dfe5c007.html#HPaUK1cokiY1ybss.99

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on March 31, 2016, 07:52:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 31, 2016, 06:41:25 AM
It would be a reflection of how people speak about those two groups (which in speak including news media) online. So in other words, none of the conclusions that you drew.

Yep. Though usually when I hear people refer to teenagers in general it is usually just how much they suck.

Though the 'three white teenagers' sure seems surprisingly multi-ethnic. It must be a reflection of how the definition of "whiteness" expands.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on March 31, 2016, 08:04:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 31, 2016, 07:31:15 AM
QuotePolice: Man punched officer, shouted 'Black Lives Matter'
Updated: March 30, 2016 — 8:06 AM EDT

BELLEVUE, Pa. (AP) - Police say a man punched a suburban Pittsburgh officer who was sitting in a parked police cruiser then yelled "Black Lives Matter" as he was taken into custody.

Twenty-three-year-old Domenick Hoy has been jailed on aggravated assault, resisting arrest and other charges pending a preliminary hearing April 7.

Bellevue police say Hoy was running and screaming toward the officer's car as it was parked across from the police station on Thursday night. When the officer rolled down his window to ask Hoy what was wrong, police say the Bellevue man punched the officer, breaking his nose.

Online court records don't list an attorney for Hoy.

Bellevue is a tiny borough just west of Pittsburgh.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160330_ap_8ca1fed9635945098018ef05dfe5c007.html#HPaUK1cokiY1ybss.99

:lol:

What's the funny bit beyond the absurdity of just running up to someone and punching them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on March 31, 2016, 09:27:37 AM
and a cop nonetheless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on March 31, 2016, 09:36:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 31, 2016, 07:52:26 AM
Yep. Though usually when I hear people refer to teenagers in general it is usually just how much they suck.


The people you hang with discuss that in public?

:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on March 31, 2016, 09:37:11 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2016, 09:36:32 AM
The people you hang with discuss that in public?

:P

Sorry. When I see stuff about Teenagers on the internet.

Wait. Oh I see what you did there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on March 31, 2016, 09:39:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 31, 2016, 09:37:11 AM

Sorry. When I see stuff about Teenagers on the internet.

Better clear your history before your wife uses the computer!  :lol:

QuoteWait. Oh I see what you did there.

;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on March 31, 2016, 10:07:15 PM
Happened two months ago, but the Post ran an article today:
'Please don't shoot me': Man pleads for life moments before being killed by police officer (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/31/please-dont-shoot-me-man-pleads-for-life-moments-before-being-killed-by-arizona-police-officer/?tid=pm_pop_b)

QuoteIn Daniel Shaver's final moments, he was heard pleading for his life — sobbing and saying to police officers, "Please don't shoot me."

Shortly afterward, Shaver was shot and killed by one of them, according to an investigation report from the Mesa Police Department.

In January, authorities said former officer Philip "Mitch" Brailsford fatally shot Shaver after responding to a call about a suspect with a gun. He has been charged with second-degree murder and fired from the force.

Shit's fucked up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 31, 2016, 10:32:35 PM
Christ that's awful :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 31, 2016, 10:46:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 31, 2016, 06:31:58 AM
A search for "Three black teenagers" generates police mugshots.
A search for "Three white teenagers" generates fun!

Luckily, anyone who wants to can be a white teenager.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on March 31, 2016, 10:47:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on March 31, 2016, 10:07:15 PM
Happened two months ago, but the Post ran an article today:
'Please don't shoot me': Man pleads for life moments before being killed by police officer (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/31/please-dont-shoot-me-man-pleads-for-life-moments-before-being-killed-by-arizona-police-officer/?tid=pm_pop_b)

QuoteIn Daniel Shaver's final moments, he was heard pleading for his life — sobbing and saying to police officers, "Please don't shoot me."

Shortly afterward, Shaver was shot and killed by one of them, according to an investigation report from the Mesa Police Department.

In January, authorities said former officer Philip "Mitch" Brailsford fatally shot Shaver after responding to a call about a suspect with a gun. He has been charged with second-degree murder and fired from the force.

Shit's fucked up.

"you're f*cked,"  - inscribed on Brailsford's AR-15.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 01, 2016, 10:48:12 AM
Christ, that is a horrible story.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 01, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
No words.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 01, 2016, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on March 31, 2016, 10:07:15 PM
Shit's fucked up.

That has to be the worst one of these I have ever heard. I just...I don't know. How does a man like that get hired on in the first place?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on April 01, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
That is messed up.  But man, alcohol and firearms do not mix.  At all.  If you start drinking, make sure everything is locked away.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 01, 2016, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2016, 11:14:25 AM
That has to be the worst one of these I have ever heard. I just...I don't know. How does a man like that get hired on in the first place?

Because older versions of him hire guys like him.  It's a self-perpetuating system of stupid.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on April 01, 2016, 03:32:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2016, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on March 31, 2016, 10:07:15 PM
Shit's fucked up.

That has to be the worst one of these I have ever heard. I just...I don't know. How does a man like that get hired on in the first place?

I don't know--the one about the guy standing in his doorway telling the officers he was afraid to come out of his house because he thought they might shoot him might have been worse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Fucking crazy

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/19/murfreesboro_tennessee_police_arrest_elementary_school_students_for_watching.html

QuoteArrest Students Aged 6-to-11 at Elementary School for Watching Neighborhood Fight
By Elliot Hannon

APRIL 19 2016 11:27 PM

The students were handcuffed and arrested at their elementary school.

Photo by JOHANNES EISELE/AFP/Getty Images

Two Tennessee lawmakers are calling for a state and federal Justice Department investigation into the conduct of a small town police department that handcuffed and arrested at least ten children aged 6-to-11 years old at their elementary school last Friday. The arrests took place at Hobgood Elementary School, located about 40 miles outside of Nashville in Murfreesboro, Tenn., because the students allegedly had not intervened to break up an off-campus fight that took place nearly a month prior.

"Today I call on United States Department of Justice to immediately open an investigation into the reported arrest and handcuffing of children as young as 6 by the Murfreesboro police," Democratic state Rep. Mike Stewart said Tuesday. "There is no explanation for such inexcusable conduct perpetrated against young children who were peacefully attending elementary school when accosted, handcuffed and jailed."

The Murfreesboro Police Deparment has been largely silent on the details of the case because it involves juveniles. The alleged fight, which took place during a neighborhood pickup basketball game, was described by one parent to the local ABC-affiliate as "no more than a scuffle of children pushing each other back and forth." A video shot on a cell phone surfaced that led the Murfreesboro Police Department to take the extraordinary step and handcuff the elementary school students at school. The students were then taken from school to a juvenile center and "charged with the misdemeanor of being criminally responsible for the conduct of others," according to the Murfreesboro Post.

Parents and members of the local community are, understandably, upset by the treatment. "More than 150 people, almost entirely African-American, gathered at First Baptist Church on East Castle Street in Murfreesboro Sunday afternoon to discuss the incident," the Tennessean reports. Police and town officials have promised a review of the situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 20, 2016, 03:23:14 AM
Question: who is more to blame, cops for being cops, or the asshole who has to film everything?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 05:42:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 20, 2016, 03:23:14 AM
Question: who is more to blame, cops for being cops, or the asshole who has to film everything?

How about the thugs who decided to arrest 10 elementary school students.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 20, 2016, 11:01:23 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 05:42:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 20, 2016, 03:23:14 AM
Question: who is more to blame, cops for being cops, or the asshole who has to film everything?

How about the thugs who decided to arrest 10 elementary school students.

"Thugs"? Racist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PRC on April 20, 2016, 11:45:51 AM
Meanwhile in Canada...

Quote
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/canadian-cops-photographed-meditating-in-a-temple-194046599.html

Canadian cops photographed meditating in a temple

Shai Williamson
The Daily Buzz
April 14, 2016


(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/iWIpm8lMN5Xic0ToLzp83Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/wp_tumblr_migration_provider_889/bcfa68f899667dbd4c7f30c2f175e13e)

A photo of a group of Canadian police officers meditating before the start of their day has gone viral.

Peel Regional Officers took some time to practice the art of mindfulness meditation in a class led by deputy abbot Bhante Saranapala at West End Buddhist Temple and Meditation Centre in Mississauga, reports the Huffington Post.

"They were very nice and they liked it and think it should be a part of their daily practice," he said.

The picture was also posted to Reddit, where it has since been 'upvoted' almost 5,000 times. Most of the comments surrounding the photo are of people poking fun at their 'Canadian-ness.'

"I bet they say 'Eh' instead of 'Om,'" one user writes.

But even though it has sparked some jokes in good fun, Saranapala told the Huffington Post that he was happy to see them come out to the temple.

"I think generally people have negative impressions about the police officers, and seeing some police officers trying to do mindfulness meditation, being at the front row of a Buddhist temple, they think it's very positive."

Well, there's not much else to say to that other then "namest-eh."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2016, 11:49:09 AM
What about temple-state separation Canada? :angry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on April 20, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Lol Doughnut Yoga.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 20, 2016, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: PRC on April 20, 2016, 11:45:51 AM
Meanwhile in Canada...

Quote
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/canadian-cops-photographed-meditating-in-a-temple-194046599.html

Canadian cops photographed meditating in a temple

Shai Williamson
The Daily Buzz
April 14, 2016


(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/iWIpm8lMN5Xic0ToLzp83Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/wp_tumblr_migration_provider_889/bcfa68f899667dbd4c7f30c2f175e13e)

A photo of a group of Canadian police officers meditating before the start of their day has gone viral.

Peel Regional Officers took some time to practice the art of mindfulness meditation in a class led by deputy abbot Bhante Saranapala at West End Buddhist Temple and Meditation Centre in Mississauga, reports the Huffington Post.

"They were very nice and they liked it and think it should be a part of their daily practice," he said.

The picture was also posted to Reddit, where it has since been 'upvoted' almost 5,000 times. Most of the comments surrounding the photo are of people poking fun at their 'Canadian-ness.'

"I bet they say 'Eh' instead of 'Om,'" one user writes.

But even though it has sparked some jokes in good fun, Saranapala told the Huffington Post that he was happy to see them come out to the temple.

"I think generally people have negative impressions about the police officers, and seeing some police officers trying to do mindfulness meditation, being at the front row of a Buddhist temple, they think it's very positive."

Well, there's not much else to say to that other then "namest-eh."


Oh for Fuck's sake.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2016, 04:02:49 PM
At least lose the vests guys.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 20, 2016, 04:56:42 PM
Good grief.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on April 20, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Fucking crazy

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/19/murfreesboro_tennessee_police_arrest_elementary_school_students_for_watching.html

Quote
The arrests took place at Hobgood Elementary School, located about 40 miles outside of Nashville in Murfreesboro, Tenn., because the students allegedly had not intervened to break up an off-campus fight that took place nearly a month prior.


The students were then taken from school to a juvenile center and “charged with the misdemeanor of being criminally responsible for the conduct of others,” according to the Murfreesboro Post.

Forget the age of the people arrested.  Since when has it been criminal for private citizens to not break up a fight they witness, and since when have bystanders been responsible for the criminal conduct of others that they happened to witness?

While the police were overzealous to an ridiculous degree here, seems like the real problem is that Tennessee has some real stupid criminal laws on the books.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2016, 05:51:27 PM
Quote from: dps on April 20, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Forget the age of the people arrested.  Since when has it been criminal for private citizens to not break up a fight they witness, and since when have bystanders been responsible for the criminal conduct of others that they happened to witness?

While the police were overzealous to an ridiculous degree here, seems like the real problem is that Tennessee has some real stupid criminal laws on the books.

I could see some degree of culpability if it were a beat down instead of a fair fight.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: dps on April 20, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Fucking crazy

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/19/murfreesboro_tennessee_police_arrest_elementary_school_students_for_watching.html

Quote
The arrests took place at Hobgood Elementary School, located about 40 miles outside of Nashville in Murfreesboro, Tenn., because the students allegedly had not intervened to break up an off-campus fight that took place nearly a month prior.


The students were then taken from school to a juvenile center and "charged with the misdemeanor of being criminally responsible for the conduct of others," according to the Murfreesboro Post.

Forget the age of the people arrested.  Since when has it been criminal for private citizens to not break up a fight they witness, and since when have bystanders been responsible for the criminal conduct of others that they happened to witness?

While the police were overzealous to an ridiculous degree here, seems like the real problem is that Tennessee has some real stupid criminal laws on the books.

Don't a lot of schools these days punish kids for any involvement in fights at all due to zero tolerance. If they had broken it up and the school found out, they could have been suspended.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on April 20, 2016, 07:18:18 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: dps on April 20, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Fucking crazy

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/19/murfreesboro_tennessee_police_arrest_elementary_school_students_for_watching.html

Quote
The arrests took place at Hobgood Elementary School, located about 40 miles outside of Nashville in Murfreesboro, Tenn., because the students allegedly had not intervened to break up an off-campus fight that took place nearly a month prior.


The students were then taken from school to a juvenile center and “charged with the misdemeanor of being criminally responsible for the conduct of others,” according to the Murfreesboro Post.

Forget the age of the people arrested.  Since when has it been criminal for private citizens to not break up a fight they witness, and since when have bystanders been responsible for the criminal conduct of others that they happened to witness?

While the police were overzealous to an ridiculous degree here, seems like the real problem is that Tennessee has some real stupid criminal laws on the books.

Don't a lot of schools these days punish kids for any involvement in fights at all due to zero tolerance. If they had broken it up and the school found out, they could have been suspended.

It wasn't on the school grounds, and apparently not during school hours.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 08:38:39 PM
Quote from: dps on April 20, 2016, 07:18:18 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: dps on April 20, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Fucking crazy

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/19/murfreesboro_tennessee_police_arrest_elementary_school_students_for_watching.html

Quote
The arrests took place at Hobgood Elementary School, located about 40 miles outside of Nashville in Murfreesboro, Tenn., because the students allegedly had not intervened to break up an off-campus fight that took place nearly a month prior.


The students were then taken from school to a juvenile center and "charged with the misdemeanor of being criminally responsible for the conduct of others," according to the Murfreesboro Post.

Forget the age of the people arrested.  Since when has it been criminal for private citizens to not break up a fight they witness, and since when have bystanders been responsible for the criminal conduct of others that they happened to witness?

While the police were overzealous to an ridiculous degree here, seems like the real problem is that Tennessee has some real stupid criminal laws on the books.

Don't a lot of schools these days punish kids for any involvement in fights at all due to zero tolerance. If they had broken it up and the school found out, they could have been suspended.

It wasn't on the school grounds, and apparently not during school hours.
Some schools punish kids even then
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 20, 2016, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: dps on April 20, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Fucking crazy

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/19/murfreesboro_tennessee_police_arrest_elementary_school_students_for_watching.html

Quote
The arrests took place at Hobgood Elementary School, located about 40 miles outside of Nashville in Murfreesboro, Tenn., because the students allegedly had not intervened to break up an off-campus fight that took place nearly a month prior.


The students were then taken from school to a juvenile center and "charged with the misdemeanor of being criminally responsible for the conduct of others," according to the Murfreesboro Post.

Forget the age of the people arrested.  Since when has it been criminal for private citizens to not break up a fight they witness, and since when have bystanders been responsible for the criminal conduct of others that they happened to witness?

While the police were overzealous to an ridiculous degree here, seems like the real problem is that Tennessee has some real stupid criminal laws on the books.

Don't a lot of schools these days punish kids for any involvement in fights at all due to zero tolerance. If they had broken it up and the school found out, they could have been suspended.

Yes the manufacture of wussy's
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2016, 12:08:22 AM
So, those cops who beat up that NY postal working didn't do it on a whim after all. They were just petty and vindictive as fuck. "How dare you gave directions to some random guy who turned out to be a murderer!" :rolleyes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/nyregion/2-new-york-detectives-indicted-in-beating-of-mail-carrier.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1
Quote
2 New York Detectives Indicted in Beating of Mail Carrier

By ASHLEY SOUTHALL
APRIL 20, 2016

Two New York City police detectives have been charged with beating a uniformed Postal Service employee in Queens in October, according to an indictment released on Wednesday. The mail carrier has said that the police have harassed him since 2014, when he gave street directions to a stranger who then killed two police officers.

The indictment was handed up by a grand jury that watched surveillance video of the stop and heard a 911 call that appears to contradict the detectives' account and shows them kicking, beating and dragging the mail carrier, Karim Baker, 26, who recently testified about his ordeal, his lawyer and law enforcement officials said.

The detectives — Angelo J. Pampena, 31, and Robert A. Carbone, 29 — were charged with felony and misdemeanor assault in an indictment announced on Wednesday by the Queens district attorney, Richard A. Brown, and the police commissioner, William J. Bratton. Detective Pampena, a nine-year veteran, was also charged with perjury, offering a false instrument and official misconduct. Detective Carbone has been with the department for eight years.

The detectives pleaded not guilty on Wednesday and were released, the district attorney's office said. Their next court appearance was set for June 27, a spokeswoman for the district attorney said. If convicted, both men face up to seven years in prison.

The Police Department said the detectives, who were assigned to the Patrol Boro Queens North Gang Unit, had been suspended without pay. Stephen P. Davis, the Police Department's chief spokesman, declined to discuss the investigation, but he said the detectives would be automatically fired if they are convicted of a felony.

James Moschella, Detective Pampena's lawyer, said he believed the video showed the officers had acted with reasonable force. "It's completely reasonable under the circumstances of Mr. Baker's resistance to the officers' lawful inquiry," he said.

However, Mr. Baker's lawyer, Eric Subin, said the stop was part of a campaign of harassment by the Police Department that started when Mr. Baker told Ismaaiyl Brinsley how to get to the Marcy Houses on Dec. 20, 2014. Mr. Brinsley then ambushed Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos before killing himself.

After Mr. Baker was questioned by the police, he was stopped approximately 20 times over 10 months, Mr. Subin said.


Mr. Baker initiated a lawsuit in November naming the city, the Police Department and the individual officers. The city was recently served with a summons and complaint and has 30 days to answer, Mr. Subin said.

"He said that he still felt as terrified as the night I met him," Mr. Subin said Mr. Baker told him after learning of the detectives' indictment. "But he didn't feel quite as defenseless."

Mr. Brown and Mr. Subin said the detectives approached Mr. Baker as he left work on Oct. 21, 2015, in Corona, Queens. Mr. Subin said the encounter was captured on surveillance video from a building across the street, and had been paired with audio from a 911 call from Mr. Baker's cellphone that recorded what occurred.

Mr. Subin said the officers had asked to see his client's identification and when he asked why he was being stopped, the officers told him he was parked too close to a fire hydrant. Mr. Baker then called 911 to ask for help, but he dropped the phone when the officers began pummeling him, Mr. Subin said.

The district attorney said Mr. Baker was seated in his car when the detectives punched and kicked him multiple times in the face and body and dragged him from the vehicle. Mr. Baker sustained spinal fractures and a knee injury and has not been able to return to work, Mr. Subin said.

Detective Pampena, in the complaint filed against Mr. Baker, claimed that Mr. Baker had been stopped for parking too close to the hydrant, Mr. Brown said. But the video showed that Mr. Baker's car was parked more than 15 feet from the hydrant, Mr. Brown said.

Mr. Baker had been charged with resisting arrest, disorderly conduct and criminal possession of a controlled substance before the video came to light, Mr. Subin said. The case was dismissed, Mr. Brown said.


The indictment was announced as the Police Department is investigating officers' conduct in the March 17 arrest of an on-duty uniformed mail carrier in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2016, 07:02:22 PM
They did what was best for them, but I'm a stubborn SOB, I would not have settled without an admission of wrong doing.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/25/cleveland-tamir-rice-family-lawsuit-settlement
Quote
Cleveland agrees to pay Tamir Rice family $6m over police shooting

City settled case with family, averting federal civil rights lawsuit following 12-year-old's death in November 2014 shooting


Jon Swaine and Oliver Laughland in New York, and Afi Scruggs in Cleveland

Monday 25 April 2016 22.43 BST  Last modified on Monday 25 April 2016 23.54 BST 

The city of Cleveland, Ohio, has agreed to pay $6m to the family of Tamir Rice to settle a lawsuit over the 12-year-old's fatal shooting by a police officer.

The payment will avert a federal civil rights case brought against city authorities by Tamir's relatives over the death of "a young boy with his entire life ahead of him, full of potential and promise", their attorneys said on Monday.

"Although historic in financial terms, no amount of money can adequately compensate for the loss of a life," said a statement issued by the firm of Jonathan Abady, Earl Ward and Zoe Salzman, their lead counsel. "Nothing will bring Tamir back. His unnecessary and premature death leaves a gaping hole for those who knew and loved him that can never be filled."

The details of the settlement were contained in a filing by judge Solomon Oliver to federal court in Cleveland on Monday morning. The city will pay Tamir's family $3m this year and $3m next year. Tamir's estate will receive $5.5m, while his mother, Samaria Rice, and his sister, Tajai Rice, will receive $250,000 each directly.

"There is no admission of wrongdoing," the court filing states.

Tamir was shot dead by Cleveland police officer Timothy Loehmann, who opened fire less than two seconds after arriving at a park where the 12-year-old was playing with a toy gun in November 2014. A 911 caller had reported that he appeared to be wielding a weapon and noted it was "probably fake", but this caveat was not relayed to the officers by dispatchers.

In December, a grand jury declined to indict officer Loehmann and his partner, Frank Garmback, on criminal charges, following a lengthy investigation process that was sharply criticised by the Rice family and campaigners.

Tamir's death followed the high-profile police killings of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric Garner in New York City, sparking a new civil rights movement that calls for drastic reforms of US policing.

Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy McGinty, who oversaw the process, argued that Tamir's death was caused by a "perfect storm of human error, mistakes and miscommunications by all involved that day", but there was no evidence of criminal misconduct by police.

McGinty, who recommended to the grand jurors that no charges be brought, was defeated by a primary election challenger earlier this year and is likely to be out of a job by the end of the year.

On Monday, McGinty declined to comment on the payout.

The settlement from Cleveland is the latest in a series reached in recent months with relatives of African Americans killed during encounters with police officers. New York authorities settled with Garner's family for $5.9m in July last year.

A settlement of $6.5m was agreed between the city of North Charleston, South Carolina, and the family of Walter Scott, who was shot dead while running away following a traffic stop there in April last year. And a payment of $6.4m will be given by Baltimore, Maryland, to the family of Freddie Gray, who died from a broken neck sustained in the back of a police van, also in April last year.


The attorneys for Tamir's family said on Monday morning that while "there is no such thing as closure or justice" in such a case, they hoped the settlement would "stimulate a movement for genuine change in our society and our nation's policing".


"Regrettably, Tamir's death is not an isolated event," they said. "The problem of police violence, especially in communities of color, is a crisis plaguing our nation."

City council member Jeff Johnson said he was not surprised by the size of the settlement, but he wondered how cash-strapped Cleveland would pay the bill.

"I don't recall seeing [the settlement] in our latest budget," Johnson said. "It will come out of our general fund and it will impact city services."

He added: "I am not surprised that the city had to pay that large amount because of the failings of its employees," noting that Loehmann had been deemed unfit for duty at a previous police department and the dispatchers' failure to relay to officers that Tamir's toy gun was probably fake.

He added that the settlement would not change the minds of many residents, especially African Americans, about the city's culpability.

"We're wrong, we're definitely at fault and we needed to pay a price for that," Johnson said.

Cleveland's mayor Frank Jackson said the city's financial woes will not hinder its ability to pay $6m to the family of a 12-year-old whom police killed two years ago.

"It's an obligation we have; whenever you have an obligation, you must pay that," Jackson said at a press conference on Monday.

Jackson also said the payout wouldn't impact a disciplinary investigation against Loehmann and Garmback. The mayor also wouldn't say how the negotiators arrived at the payout, which must be approved by a probate court.

Echoing the comments of the Rice family's attorney, mayor Jackson said, however, the money would not compensate for the tragedy of Tamir Rice's death.

"A 12-year-old died. Regardless of fault or facts or anything, that shouldn't have happened."

Later on Monday the city's main police union risked reinflaming the situation by suggesting that Tamir's family put part of their payout towards stopping children from causing trouble with guns.

"We can only hope the Rice family and their attorneys will use a portion of this settlement to help educate the youth of Cleveland in the dangers associated with the mishandling of both real and facsimile firearms," Stephen Loomis, the president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said in a statement.

Budget projections show Cleveland ending the 2016 fiscal year with a small surplus of $722,000. In February, the city's mayor, Frank Jackson, proposed an income tax increase to keep the city from slipping into the red in 2017. He blamed declining property taxes and the state's cuts to its cities. Among the city's expenses are $11m associated with an agreement between Cleveland and the federal Department of Justice over police use of force.

"It's sad, in a sense," said Johnson. "No only was Tamir Rice unnecessarily killed by a city worker, but the taxpayers of the city have to pay for that failure of judgment by the dispatcher and the two officers."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 07:10:12 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2016, 07:02:22 PM
They did what was best for them, but I'm a stubborn SOB, I would not have settled without an admission of wrong doing.

We'll remember that when the Cleveland PD shoots you.  At least I will.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 25, 2016, 07:38:19 PM
How much is that admission worth to you? A million, two million, six million?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 07:50:03 PM
In Timmay's case, a free 2 liter as long as I order the mozzarella sticks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 25, 2016, 07:58:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 07:50:03 PM
In Timmay's case, a free 2 liter as long as I order the mozzarella sticks.

Ill take a foty and a pack of Newports, biatch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 08:02:33 PM
Racist cunt.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 25, 2016, 08:06:32 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 08:02:33 PM
Racist cunt.

Don't hate on the OE and 'Ports.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 08:07:59 PM
It's not that.  White people just don't say "biatch". 

Creepy ass cracker.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 25, 2016, 08:11:30 PM
Sheriff's deputies shot a guy up in Randolph county.

QuoteRANDOLPH COUNTY, Mo. — The Missouri State Highway Patrol's Division of Drug and Crime Control is investigating a deputy-involved shooting after a police chase in Randolph County Monday morning near Huntsville.

Missouri State Highway Patrol Sergeant Brent Bernhardt said a 34-year-old man from Moberly was shot by deputies and taken to University Hospital with serious injuries.

SGT. Bernhardt said the incident started when deputies initiated a traffic stop for careless driving on Randolph County Road 2270 on a 2000 Oldsmobile Bravada. That car had a male driver and female passenger, the car failed to stop and deputies gave chase.

The car traveled west onto Missouri Route BB, then north on Randolph County Road 2210 and then onto U.S. 24 east of Huntsville.

As the suspects' car reached Missouri Route C and U.S. 24, State Trooper deployed spike strips. The chase ended on a short time later.

The male suspect exited the car and began to flee on foot. Two Randolph County Deputies began to chase the man. The Highway Patrol said the man showed a gun and allegedly fired at the officers. Randolph County deputies returned fire and hit the suspect two times.

The 34-year-old suspect was taken to University Hospital with serious injures.

Officers detained the female passengers for questioning.

No law enforcement officers were injured.



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 25, 2016, 08:27:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 08:07:59 PM
It's not that.  White people just don't say "biatch". 

Unless we're singing along to "Gin and Juice".  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2016, 08:31:33 PM
Now that's just silly talk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 15, 2016, 06:36:46 PM
Not a shooting, this is much worse. :bleeding:

Also, to parahphrase one of the commenters, if the video showed no negligence or law breaking, wouldn't that be the best reason to keep it?  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/05/what_happened_to_jamycheal_mitchell.html
QuoteStill No Answers

Jamycheal Mitchell's death in a Virginia jail cell still hasn't been explained. It should be a national scandal.

By Dahlia Lithwick

On Aug. 19, 2015, 24-year-old Jamycheal Mitchell was found dead in his cell at Hampton Roads Regional Jail in Virginia. New revelations last week about how state officials acted in the aftermath of his death and a $60 million lawsuit filed by his family this week have shown that the state's treatment of Mitchell—in life and in death—was somehow even more horrific than previously detailed. Multiple official investigations later—and with the videotape of his last days in prison conveniently erased forever—the official line appears to be that "the system" was to blame. So, there's apparently nothing to see here folks. Until the next time.

Mitchell, who according to his family suffered from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder for most of his life, had been arrested four months prior to his death, for stealing a Mountain Dew, a Snickers bar, and a Zebra Cake from a 7-Eleven. Mitchell was denied bond, he was awaiting trial, and a judge had twice ordered him moved to a state mental health hospital, but no beds were available.

So Jamycheal Mitchell spent 101 days in jail while he waited for that transfer, evidently starving himself to death over the weeks and months he remained there. A jail officer found Mitchell lying dead in his bunk on that Wednesday in August, his feces smeared all over the walls and his urine on the floor of his cell. When he arrived at the Hampton Roads Regional Jail in May, Mitchell weighed 182 pounds. He weighed 144 pounds during a post-death examination.

Mitchell's story is both horrifying and somehow unremarkable. It exposes this country's grotesque tendency to warehouse the severely mentally ill in jails—10 times more of them are in jails and prisons than are in state psychiatric hospitals. But it also proves the horrendous abuse and neglect these people will suffer there. Mitchell had a long history of mental illness and had waived his right to counsel even though he was deemed "manic and psychotic" by a forensic psychologist. His bail was inexplicably set at $3,000 for stealing less than $5 worth of junk food. Despite years of scandals and exposés, the shortage of beds in mental health hospitals in Virginia still hasn't been redressed. When I wrote about the case in September, various investigations were being launched, but their results are either secret, partial, inconclusive, or arm-waving and vague. Mitchell's story upsettingly never became the national scandal that it should be.

In the year since Mitchell was arrested, two separate reports by state agencies have blamed a series of "systematic failures" for Mitchell's continued detention when he should have been in a mental health facility for treatment. These reports hardly begin to address the institutional abuses that have been alleged in a $60 million lawsuit filed by Mitchell's family on Tuesday in district court.

The 112-page lawsuit names 31 defendants—ranging from state mental health officials, jail administrators, and guards to court staff and health care workers. Inmates who witnessed Mitchell's deterioration over his 101 days in jail allege in the lawsuit that he was dragged naked out of his cell and put on display like a "circus animal." Several inmates alleged that guards didn't give him meal trays for days at a time or deliberately put his trays out of his reach to punish him. The suit claims that correctional officers turned off the water in Mitchell's cell and that he was routinely allowed to smear his feces on the walls without a cleanup. Inmates reported beatings, abuse, and hearing Mitchell crying in his cell.

One of the defendants named in the suit is Gail Hart, who worked in the admissions department of Eastern State Hospital. When the May judicial order for Mitchell to be transferred to the hospital came across her desk, Hart stuffed it into a drawer, according to the Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services' investigation. The paperwork only turned up after he died.

That's not all. Last month, the Richmond Times-Dispatch reported that video images captured outside Mitchell's cell in the days and hours leading up to his death had been automatically erased, according to jail protocol. The jailhouse system automatically tapes over footage 18 days after it is recorded, but Mitchell's family lawyer had requested that it be preserved. And even if it had not been requested, how can it possibly be appropriate for officials to erase footage of an inmate who has died because of alleged abuse and neglect? Lt. Col. Eugene Taylor III, an assistant superintendent at the jail, told the Times-Dispatch that the video was not preserved "because it did not show any type of criminality or negligence." Good to know.

Lawyers for Mitchell's family argue that without the video there is no way of knowing whether he was being checked on every 30 minutes by guards and once a day by medical personal—as protocol required—and how often Mitchell was actually offered food, or whether those trays came back empty. That a mentally ill man could starve to death in a jail and nobody thought to preserve the video of his treatment in his last days is unimaginable. Except of course it happened.

Mitchell's family has also made a formal request to the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division to open an investigation. As mentioned, the current official reports fall flat in their attempts to exonerate jail workers and others for potential institutional faults.

As the Times-Dispatch explains:
The jail conducted an internal investigation that it says cleared its employees of wrongdoing, but it has refused to release the report to the public. The Virginia Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services and the Office of the State Inspector General conducted separate inquiries, but neither dealt with anything that took place inside the jail or revealed what led to Mitchell's death.


The Behavioral Health report, released in late March, detailed the failures across the system, including the lost transfer order and an assessment for involuntary hospitalization that never occurred. Lost messages, scarce resources, overwhelmed and underpaid staff are all noted. The report does not explain why nothing was done about Mitchell's deteriorating health while in jail. The report released by the inspector general, meanwhile, noted that there were "multiple, significant risk points" and that NaphCare, the company that was contracted by the jail to do medical and mental health care services, provided "incomplete and inconsistent" records. This report also did not delve into the care Mitchell received while in the jail. G. Douglas Bevelacqua, a former state inspector general who has investigated the state of mental health services in Virginia, condemned both reports: "Regrettably, after reading [the reports], I cannot answer the basic question of how did corrections staff and mental health workers allow Mitchell to waste away in plain sight for 3½ months."

The problem—we keep hearing—is "systemic." But the system remains largely unchanged and any potential institutional flaws have clearly not been properly examined. Indeed responses to the reports suggest that nobody knows who has the authority to even effectuate the changes that are suggested.

The medical examiner's office in Norfolk has said Mitchell died because of a heart defect and "wasting syndrome," or extreme weight loss.  The editorial pages seem to have captured what all of the "investigators" have missed: A man with severe mental illness died in our care in our prison system and nobody is responsible and nobody cares.

Every time someone with a mental illness expires in jail, we are reminded of how sprawling and intractable the problems with our mental health and criminal justice systems have become.  Meaningful reforms are not impossible—the Commonwealth of Virginia has known for years that there is a serious problem here—but secret reports, deleted videotape, and pass-the-buck investigations change nothing. We now know about Jamycheal Mitchell—a poor, mentally ill black man lost in the paper bureaucracy of our prison system—not because he was mentally ill, or poor, or lost in that bureaucracy like so many others. We now know about him simply because he is dead.

Whether or not the alleged institutional abuses are ultimately proven, the reality is this: A severely ill young man wasted away, smeared in his own feces, under the watchful eyes of multiple health care workers, corrections staff, and other inmates. His death will force no accountability and will bring about no change. The illness from which Jamycheal Mitchell suffered could have been better managed through medication, proper treatment, and simple respect. The illness that allows the rest of us to jail great masses of dangerously sick people and mistreat them until they die? It is increasingly seeming to be untreatable and incurable.   

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on May 15, 2016, 06:52:40 PM
"Super Predator" ?


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on May 16, 2016, 08:29:24 PM
How was his life possibly worth $60 million?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 16, 2016, 08:49:59 PM
Kleves is always looking for a bargain when it comes to Dead Nigger Storage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 16, 2016, 09:50:01 PM
Tim you really undercut yourself when you link to pithy Slate articles.  There are perfectly good articles out there that don't editorialize.  Stupid comments in the article hurt credibility.  Things like

QuoteLt. Col. Eugene Taylor III, an assistant superintendent at the jail, told the Times-Dispatch that the video was not preserved "because it did not show any type of criminality or negligence." Good to know.

Do not help.

The turnkeys need to brought up on homicide charges.  The mentally ill don't do well in prison.  I've heard the rumors in Jeff City, that the deputies in charge the jail deliberately withhold medication.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 17, 2016, 08:20:25 AM
DVRs always record over previous material, and it is not reviewed unless there is a reason to review it.  The article takes a few potshots at the technology, when all it's really doing is what it's supposed to do.  Now, whether they should have preserved the video in this case sounds more along the the theme that they didn't know/didn't care about the health and wellbeing of this prisoner.  If nobody writes a report, if nobody calls for outside agency help, if nobody sends it up the chain to address, then not retaining video is no big surprise.

Every now and then a law office would call and ask if we still had footage of an accident at the interesection of such and such from 6 months ago.  Uh, no; the hard drive is only so big.  Somebody should've called the week it happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on May 17, 2016, 08:44:37 AM
In this case, as I understand it, the very people who control whether the footage would be saved are the same people responsible for the well being of the prisoner.

It doesn't take any great thinking on their part to assume that if someone dies in their care the footage is relevant and important in any possible case - if it shows neglect or abuse, it is important, and if it does NOT show neglect and abuse, THAT is important as well. For them - maybe even MORE important.

The fact that they erased it, or chose to allow it to be erased, should be looked on with great suspicion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 17, 2016, 08:55:11 AM
You continually insist on ascribing a certain amount of good judgement and good faith to individuals in a profession that consistently fail to demonstrate it.  You should stop that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on May 17, 2016, 09:39:15 AM
True - one can always assume lack of competency rather than actual malice.

But when it comes to prisoners welfare, I think as a matter of policy we should probably assume lack of competency should be presumed as malice in any case, otherwise we will see more results like this one...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on May 17, 2016, 09:41:18 AM
When you are in position of power, incompetence is a sin in itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 17, 2016, 11:36:58 AM
These are the jail guards.  Imagine all the worst applicants for the police department, the stupidest, the most inept, the most petty and sadistic and put them in one building.  They pay them a minimum wage and have them look after the well being of other human beings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 17, 2016, 12:35:28 PM
That's a little broad brush.

Were these jailers contractor from a private company, state or county employees?

All the county jails are run by the Sherriff's department in WA State. They are not min wage workers averaging 25-30 an hour. WA State corrections is slightly lower.

Yea, they fucked up and are going to get hammered.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 17, 2016, 12:50:14 PM
In Jefferson City, turnkeys are cops who couldn't make the cut.  And as demonstrated in the last few year Missouri cops aren't the best of the best.  We had a jailer who died on a fishing trip because he tried to swallow a live fish, which naturally lodged in his throat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 17, 2016, 12:54:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 17, 2016, 12:50:14 PM
In Jefferson City, turnkeys are cops who couldn't make the cut.  And as demonstrated in the last few year Missouri cops aren't the best of the best.  We had a jailer who died on a fishing trip because he tried to swallow a live fish, which naturally lodged in his throat.

Sounds like y'all got issues in MO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2016, 06:14:32 AM
San Francisco chief resigns after third shooting if unarmed victim in 5 months.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sfpd-mayor-chief-resign-scandals-20160519-snap-story.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 20, 2016, 11:40:03 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 17, 2016, 08:20:25 AM
DVRs always record over previous material, and it is not reviewed unless there is a reason to review it.  The article takes a few potshots at the technology, when all it's really doing is what it's supposed to do.  Now, whether they should have preserved the video in this case sounds more along the the theme that they didn't know/didn't care about the health and wellbeing of this prisoner.  If nobody writes a report, if nobody calls for outside agency help, if nobody sends it up the chain to address, then not retaining video is no big surprise.

They got a timely preservation notice from the family's attorney and apparently ignored it.  That is usually ground for sanction, up to and potentially including an adverse factual inference.

Not to mention that if no policy exists to cancel the record-over in the event of an inmate death, it is yet more evidence of improper policies and procedures.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2016, 08:17:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 20, 2016, 11:40:03 AM
They got a timely preservation notice from the family's attorney and apparently ignored it.  That is usually ground for sanction, up to and potentially including an adverse factual inference.

QuoteThe Times-Dispatch requested a copy of the video outside his cell through a Freedom of Information Act request, but the request was denied because the video does not exist.
"There is no security footage taken outside of Mr. Mitchell's cell during his incarceration at Hampton Roads Regional Jail," Superintendent David L. Simons wrote in a response to The Times-Dispatch's request.
When asked to clarify whether or not such video existed, Taylor said the video taken at the time Mitchell was incarcerated was part of an old system that automatically recorded over existing video every 18 days.
Fourteen days after Mitchell died, Krudys said his office hand-delivered a letter addressed to Simons that requested the jail preserve "all records, documents ... videos and other electronic/digital media, and all other tangible things concerning Mr. Mitchell."
Krudys provided a copy of the Sept. 2 letter last week to The Times-Dispatch after he was told the video no longer existed.
He said the jail was obligated to have kept, at the very least, the last four days of Mitchell's life — a critical time period that would have shown what kind of medical care he received in his cell — because his firm delivered its request to preserve records 14 days into the 18-day loop.

http://www.richmond.com/news/article_b6c51cce-7d99-555e-86df-bab012b52162.html

I'm not sure exactly how "timely" a "timely preservation notice" is expected to be in that bureaucratic monkeyfuck, delivered on Day 14 of an alleged 18-day video loop (which isn't really how these systems work, even older analog systems, but that's for another show), especially if they have this kind of time-space continuum down there--

QuoteThe Portsmouth General District Court told investigators it mailed the judge's order — known as a competency restoration order — to Eastern State Hospital near Williamsburg on May 27, six days after a judge issued it, according to the report, issued by the state Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services.
Investigators found no evidence the order was mailed or faxed or that it was received.
Another copy of the order was faxed to Eastern State on July 31, but none of the weekly logs of inmates waiting for a bed prepared on Aug. 4, Aug. 11 or Aug. 18 contained Mitchell's name, according to the report.
An "overwhelmed" state employee placed the order in a desk drawer when she received the fax instead of adding Mitchell to the waiting list. The drawer contained a "significant number of CROs that had not been entered," according to the report, but it does not identify how many.
The employee's identity has been redacted from the report, but it says she was "astonished and distraught" when she found the file in her desk on Aug. 24, five days after Mitchell's death. She retired from Eastern State about a month later.

Yes.  Overwhelmed.

QuoteNot to mention that if no policy exists to cancel the record-over in the event of an inmate death, it is yet more evidence of improper policies and procedures.

Brilliant, Holmes.  You're on to something here.

Yesterday's front page story for The Virginian-Pilot--

QuotePublic wasn't notified when inmate committed suicide in Hampton Roads Regional jail last year
The Hampton Roads Regional Jail failed to inform the public that an inmate committed suicide in April 2015, making it at least two deaths that occurred in the facility last year that came to light only when people who knew the inmates reached out to the media.

http://pilotonline.com/news/inmate-committed-suicide-in-hampton-roads-regional-jail-last-year/article_90782f4a-264e-518e-a77d-ff696e229f20.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 23, 2016, 10:48:33 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/verdict-expected-freddie-gray-officer-trial-baltimore-074526009.html

QuoteOfficer acquitted on all charges in Freddie Gray case

A Baltimore officer was acquitted Monday of assault and other charges in the arrest of Freddie Gray, dealing prosecutors a significant blow in their attempt to hold police accountable for the young black man's death from injuries he suffered in the back of a police van.

A judge also found Officer Edward Nero not guilty of reckless endangerment and misconduct in office. As the verdict was read, Nero dropped his head down and his attorney placed a hand on his back. The courtroom was quiet. Nero stood up and hugged his attorney, and was visibly emotional.

The assault charge carried a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and reckless endangerment carried a punishment of up to five years.

Gray died April 19, 2015, a week after his neck was broken in the back of a police transport van while he was handcuffed and shackled but left unrestrained by a seat belt.

Nero was one of six officers charged in the case. He waived his right to a jury trial, opting instead to argue his case before Circuit Judge Barry Williams. A jury trial was held for Officer William Porter late last year, and the panel could not reach a decision on manslaughter and other charges.

Gray's death set off more than a week of protests followed by looting, rioting and arson that prompted a citywide curfew. His name became a rallying cry in the growing national conversation about the treatment of black men by police officers.

Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said in a statement that Nero will still face an administrative review by the police department.

"We once again ask the citizens to be patient and to allow the entire process to come to a conclusion. In the case of any disturbance in the city, we are prepared to respond. We will protect our neighborhoods, our businesses and the people of our city," she said.

About a dozen protesters gathered outside the courthouse as the verdict was read.

Prosecutors said Nero unlawfully detained Gray and acted callously when he made a decision not to buckle Gray into a seat belt when he was loaded into the back of a transport vehicle.

Nero's attorney argued his client didn't arrest Gray and that it was the police van driver's responsibility to buckle in detainees. The defense also said the officers who responded that day acted responsibly, and called witnesses to bolster their argument that any reasonable officer in Nero's position would have made the same decisions.

The defense said the department's order requiring that all inmates be strapped in is more suggestion than rule because officers are expected to act with discretion based on the circumstances of each situation.

The other officers are set to each have separate trials over the summer and into the fall. Nero is white and Porter is black. Two of the other officers charged in the case are white and two are black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 23, 2016, 10:55:00 AM
Who the fuck says Nero these days? It's Italian-American.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 11:23:15 AM
I hesitate to comment on legal matters - usually it turns out that the reality is a lot more rational than the headline, which is hard to reconcile.

It is hard to understand how a police officer who takes a suspect into custody is then not responsible for that safety of that suspect, especially around something as trivial as putting a fucking seatbelt on him - and that is ignoring the accusations that this was used a way of intentionally roughing up suspects.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2016, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 17, 2016, 08:55:11 AM
You continually insist on ascribing a certain amount of good judgement and good faith to individuals in a profession that consistently fail to demonstrate it.  You should stop that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on May 24, 2016, 08:33:26 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/23/us/edward-nero-verdict-judge-ruling/index.html

Reading the article and the legal reasoning, I have to agree that it doesn't seem like there is much of a case against Nero.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on May 24, 2016, 09:20:06 AM
I don't know about the cases against the other officers, but proceeding in the case against Nero seems extremely questionable. It makes the whole process to me seem more like a witch hunt.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 24, 2016, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: Kleves on May 24, 2016, 09:20:06 AM
I don't know about the cases against the other officers, but proceeding in the case against Nero seems extremely questionable. It makes the whole process to me seem more like a witch hunt.

They were all charged individually as opposed to indicted together, so their trial dates were subject to the docket, depending on when they were charged, arraigned, postponements.  That's why their court dates are all over the place.
Nero and the other street cop don't really have anything to worry about, so it's not surprising;  it's the wagon man, his supervisor and Lt. Let's Fuck With Freddie that have to worry.

QuoteAs Williams put it, two questions were at issue:
Could an officer under similar circumstances as Nero expect another officer in the van with Gray to seat belt him, especially if that person was in a higher position?
Could an officer under similar circumstances reasonably assume the van driver would check to make sure Gray was secure before driving off?
"The answer to both of those questions, based on the facts presented, is yes," Williams said. Therefore, he said, it was reasonable of Nero to not take it upon himself to secure Gray and to expect other officers to handle it.

That's right; he may be your arrest, but it's the transport officer's wagon: he dictates how, in what manner and in what condition, prisoners get loaded.  Seen more than one wagon driver turn away a prisoner--too fucked up, too high, complaining too much about an injury?  You're waiting for an ambulance with your lock up.  I made more than enough OT at the ER drinking coffee and hitting on nurses waiting for Mr. Ow My Back Hurts to get his negative x-ray results.  Wagon drivers are not going to drive around with your fuck ups in the back, responsible for your mess in his van while you're heading down to CBIF to write out the statement of charges.  They're usually in pissy moods to begin with, since most of them are driving transport because of bad attitudes or bad records.  Not all of them, but behind the wheel of the wagon is the one place you can stash a district's problem.     

I think Gooden is cooked: he either 1) ignored his prisoner's cries for help, or 2) he stopped and gave him something to cry about.  Considering he made a stop he didn't tell investigators about until it was found on CCTV--with him as the only person with the prisoner--I'm picking curtain #2.


[spoiler]As an aside:  for close to ten years, between the PD and bail bonds, I had probably seen a couple hundred prisoners--mine and others--get loaded into wagons, from the old ice boxes to the cargo vans first coming into service.  Cooperative, drunk as shit, fighting like motherfuckers, fighting like motherfuckers with other prisoners in the van, didn't matter--it was the wagon driver's call how they went in.  And I can honestly say, I do not believe I can count on both hands the number of times I ever saw a prisoner buckled in.  It just didn't happen.

If you were lucky, you could hang on to a seat belt strap in one of the newer vans (the ice boxes only had a cuff bar) if your hands were cuffed behind you.  If you could reach them.  If you were in the condition to be able to reach them.  If you weren't face down on the floor of the van's bay, getting your skull rammed into the bulkhead every time the wagon driver pumped the brakes or hopped a curb because you gave him a hard time.  Or because he thought it was funny.  Or just because. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 25, 2016, 12:31:53 AM







Quote
:lol:
NEW YORK - In what is becoming something of a New York City tradition, the two organizations assigned to protect and serve the city's citizens hosted a charity sporting competition and also got into a large, bloody brawl.

Video of the aftermath of Sunday's game at Coney Island shows dozens of players brawling and yelling curses. Blood can be seen dripping down the face of one firefighter.


Fucking hose draggers.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nypd-dismissive-of-massive-brawl-against-fdny/ar-BBtqxP8?ocid=ansmsnnews11
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2016, 03:25:00 AM
Having seen movies of Black Lives Matter activists in action, I can't really blame the police for being a bit trigger happy with those people. I mean, I can see even a trained policeman to be concerned for his or her life when around them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 05:47:29 AM
If only they used wine glasses more often.  And sucked bags of dicks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 26, 2016, 05:57:34 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 05:47:29 AM
If only they used wine glasses more often.  And sucked bags of dicks.

And were less brown. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:02:29 AM
Well, there's brown and then there's brown.  #CabanaBoysLivesMatter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 26, 2016, 06:05:39 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:02:29 AM
Well, there's brown and then there's brown.  #CabanaBoysLivesMatter

Are you sure about that with Mart though? I get the sense he's more into whiter shades of pale.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:10:19 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 06:05:39 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:02:29 AM
Well, there's brown and then there's brown.  #CabanaBoysLivesMatter

Are you sure about that with Mart though? I get the sense he's more into whiter shades of pale.

Who do you think works the resorts in the Canary Islands?  Canaries?  "Oh Raul, do be an angel and refill my daiquiri, you little matador."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 26, 2016, 06:13:16 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:10:19 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 26, 2016, 06:05:39 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2016, 06:02:29 AM
Well, there's brown and then there's brown.  #CabanaBoysLivesMatter

Are you sure about that with Mart though? I get the sense he's more into whiter shades of pale.

Who do you think works the resorts in the Canary Islands?  Canaries?  "Oh Raul, do be an angel and refill my daiquiri, you little matador."

Actually, I saw a lot of German workers too (in addition to the tourists) when I was just there. ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2016, 08:20:28 PM
I'm don't understand the charges. Manslaughter via negligence and attempted murder?  :unsure:

Dude died, nothing attempted about it.  :huh:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/01/nouman_raja_florida_police_officer_who_shot_corey_jones_facing_manslaughter.html

QuotePlainclothes Officer Who Shot Black Man Awaiting Roadside Assistance Will Face Charges

By Leon Neyfakh

Last October, a man whose car had broken down in the middle of the night in Florida was killed by a police officer while waiting for roadside assistance. Seven months later, the officer has been charged by Florida prosecutors with manslaughter by culpable negligence and attempted first degree murder. According to Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg, a grand jury found that the officer's use of deadly force was unjustified.

Nouman Raja never told 31-year-old Corey Jones that he was a police officer before he killed him, prosecutors allege. Nor was it possible, according to the charging documents, for Jones to deduce Raja's identity from his police vehicle, because it was unmarked, or his clothing, because he wasn't wearing a uniform.  After Raja pulled up to Jones's car around 3:15 a.m., the situation escalated quickly, with Raja noticing that Jones was armed with a gun and allegedly yelling, "Get your fucking hands up!" three times before firing six shots.

Jones had encountered car trouble on his way home from a concert he had performed in, and had parked his vehicle north of West Palm Beach, alongside Interstate 95. According to a police statement issued after the incident, Raja spotted Jones' car and stopped to investigate because he believed it was abandoned. "As the officer exited his vehicle, he was suddenly confronted by an armed subject," the department said in their statement. "As a result of the confrontation, the officer discharged his firearm, resulting in the death of the subject."

According to the Washington Post, the charging documents released Wednesday indicate that Raja drove his car in the wrong direction while exiting the interstate before confronting Jones. "A reasonable person can only assume the thoughts and concerns Corey Jones was experiencing as he saw the van approaching him at that hour of the morning," the prosecutors wrote in the documents. "Raja stopped his van at a perpendicular angle directly in front of Jones' vehicle... At no time during the recording did Raja say he was a police officer."

A transcript of the interaction between the two men, published by the Post, indicates that Raja initially asked if Jones was OK:

Raja: You good?

Jones: I'm good

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah, I'm good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah

Raja: Get your fucking hands up! Get your fucking hands up!

Jones: Hold on!

Raja: Get your fucking hands up! Drop!

The Post said Jones was on the phone with someone when Raja fired on him, causing the person on the other end of the line to say, "Oh my gosh!"

About 30 seconds after firing his final shot, Raja called 911 and told the dispatcher, "I came out, I saw him come out with a handgun. I gave him commands, I identified myself, and he turned, pointed the gun at me, and started running. I shot him."


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2016, 08:53:08 AM
So you see a guy with a gun and the way police are supposed to handle that situation is to escalate and provoke a confrontation?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 02, 2016, 09:06:31 AM
It's Florida. They have laws that state that you are allowed to shoot people as long as you feel threatened, even if you could just walk away.

I don't see how this could possibly be a crime. It is the inevitable result of the "polite, armed society". If the other guy is likely to have a gun, and you have a gun, then whoever draws and shoots first wins. You can't wait until he *proves* he has a gun, that will result in you being the dead one. Clearly that is the mistake the "victim" made in this case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 02, 2016, 09:08:54 AM
Why are cops so scared all the time nowadays?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2016, 09:10:37 AM
I'm glad they didn't kill me when I was walking the streets of West Palm Beach earlier this year.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 02, 2016, 09:19:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2016, 09:10:37 AM
I'm glad they didn't kill me when I was walking the streets of West Palm Beach earlier this year.

You are lucky they are so polite.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2016, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2016, 09:19:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2016, 09:10:37 AM
I'm glad they didn't kill me when I was walking the streets of West Palm Beach earlier this year.

You are lucky they are so polite.

I wasn't luck that I was sent to Florida. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 02, 2016, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2016, 09:06:31 AM
It's Florida. They have laws that state that you are allowed to shoot people as long as you feel threatened, even if you could just walk away.

I don't see how this could possibly be a crime. It is the inevitable result of the "polite, armed society". If the other guy is likely to have a gun, and you have a gun, then whoever draws and shoots first wins. You can't wait until he *proves* he has a gun, that will result in you being the dead one. Clearly that is the mistake the "victim" made in this case.

Reminds me of Robbie Burns' song:

QuoteWhat is right and what is wrong
By the law, by the law?
What is right and what is wrong by the law?
What is right and what is wrong,
A short sword and a long!
A weak arm and a strong
For to draw.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 07, 2016, 05:48:56 PM
Another pretty disgusting story:  https://theintercept.com/2016/06/07/tased-in-the-chest-for-23-seconds-dead-for-8-minutes-now-facing-a-lifetime-of-recovery/.  And I think we all know how the cover-up would've turned out if the kid wasn't the son of another cop.

I think such stories will continue to happen if there is no risk of prison time for those engaged in cover-up or post-incident harassment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 10, 2016, 01:09:07 PM
Full dash-cam video of the Runnels story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/timothy-runnels-bryce-masters-taser_us_57571f6de4b07823f95188c9

The officer was fired and given 4 years in federal prison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 10, 2016, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 07, 2016, 05:48:56 PMAnd I think we all know how the cover-up would've turned out if the kid wasn't the son of another cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 10, 2016, 01:25:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 10, 2016, 01:09:07 PM
The officer was fired and given 4 years in federal prison.

Should've gone to Stanford.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 11, 2016, 05:06:31 PM
Quote

States crack down on government cash grabs


States across the country are revising laws that allow police to seize a person's cash and property without a conviction, following widespread complaints about agencies profiteering off such legislation, holdovers from the "Miami Vice" cocaine era.


Right now, 47 of the 50 states allow so-called civil asset forfeitures, with New Hampshire set to effectively end such practices, which allow property and currency to be seized even if it's only suspected of being connected to a crime.

The changes in New Hampshire and elsewhere follow numerous, high-profile cases in which Americans have had their cash and other assets seized by state- and local-level police agencies without being convicted and of police departments appearing to aggressively pursue such cases to fill their coffers.

Among them is the 2013 case in which motorist Straughn Gorman had $167,000 in cash seized by the Nevada state police, which suspected him of transporting drugs but only issued him traffic tickets.

In another highly-publicized case, a small-town Mississippi police department built a $4.1 million training facility and bought a fleet of new police cruisers from such forfeitures.

The New Hampshire legislation, which Democratic Gov. Maggie Hassen has vowed to sign, would essentially require prosecutors trying to keep assets to first get a conviction, with few exceptions including a defendant's death.

And it would require them to present stronger cases and harder evidence -- phased in the bill as "clear and compelling" evidence.

"I look forward to signing this bipartisan bill that ... maintains drug forfeiture funds," Hassen said last week.

However, New Hampshire is still involved in a federal program in which state or local police can transfer seized assets to the U.S. government, then get back a percentage of the haul.

The Justice Department recently stopped a program that such agencies appeared to be using to side-step state forfeiture laws and get back a heft percentage.

However, the department still has its "Equitable Sharing Program" in which agencies assisting the federal government in criminal cases can share in some of the seized assets, the agency said Wednesday.

Maryland, New Mexico and Nebraska have purportedly restricted their law enforcement agencies from participating in the federal program.

"New Hampshire would be wise to follow that lead," Jason Snead, a Heritage Foundation policy analyst, recently told The Daily Signal. "Until it does, the impact of (its bill) is likely to be seriously blunted by law enforcement agencies that have every incentive to circumvent the new law and little compunction about doing so."

North Carolina, New Mexico and Nebraska (once its law takes effect) are the only three states with no state forfeiture provision. 

Michigan, Montana, New Mexico and Florida have recently revised their civil asset forfeiture laws.

In Florida, GOP Gov. Rick Scott recently signed a bipartisan bill that takes effect in July and will requires law enforcement agencies to arrest suspects before seizing their property under civil asset forfeiture laws.

In addition, the agencies will have to pay thousands in filing fees and bond postings should the owner be found not guilty. The law also makes recovering the property and related legal fees easier for the owner.

Cash can still be taken in Florida without an arrest but cannot be kept unless agencies prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that it was connected to a crime


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/06/11/states-crack-down-on-government-cash-grabs.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2016, 03:13:26 PM
Another wonderful legacy of the drug war.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2016, 03:14:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2016, 03:13:26 PM
Another wonderful legacy of the drug war.

I'm glad the state's are at least trying
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2016, 04:01:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2016, 03:14:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2016, 03:13:26 PM
Another wonderful legacy of the drug war.

I'm glad the state's are at least trying

Why is it that once the Feds decide on a stupid policy it is almost impossible to change it? No matter how innocuous and uncontroversial changing it would be? It never fails to baffle me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 12, 2016, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 10, 2016, 01:25:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 10, 2016, 01:09:07 PM
The officer was fired and given 4 years in federal prison.

Should've gone to Stanford.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2016, 06:20:14 AM
Hey, while we're here let's just shoot him in the head, all executiony-style. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/06/video-captures-white-baton-rouge-police-officer-fatally-shooting-black-man-sparking-outrage/)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on July 06, 2016, 07:54:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2016, 04:01:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2016, 03:14:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2016, 03:13:26 PM
Another wonderful legacy of the drug war.

I'm glad the state's are at least trying

Why is it that once the Feds decide on a stupid policy it is almost impossible to change it? No matter how innocuous and uncontroversial changing it would be? It never fails to baffle me.

Well, it seems that it wouldn't be innocuous for several police departments and agencies throughout. Which is probably one of the reasons it's not being repealed
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2016, 09:25:04 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2016, 06:20:14 AM
Hey, while we're here let's just shoot him in the head, all executiony-style. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/06/video-captures-white-baton-rouge-police-officer-fatally-shooting-black-man-sparking-outrage/)

You know, while we're at it, let's shoot him and then yell "Don't move, get on the ground!" (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/06/new-video-shows-alton-sterling-was-not-holding-a-gun-when-baton-rogue-police-killed-him.html)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 06, 2016, 10:24:38 PM
Christ. :(

I hope the DOJ investigates.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 06, 2016, 10:58:13 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 10, 2016, 01:09:07 PM
Full dash-cam video of the Runnels story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/timothy-runnels-bryce-masters-taser_us_57571f6de4b07823f95188c9

The officer was fired and given 4 years in federal prison.
nearly kill a white kid: no problem.
Talk of niggers: resign or be fired.
That is strange.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on July 06, 2016, 11:00:14 PM
What's that in English?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 06, 2016, 11:36:27 PM
DOJ will investage the Sterling shooting

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/department-of-justice-alton-sterling_us_577d2369e4b09b4c43c1c695?wbpj247zfmumqgp66r

Also, Hillary commented on the matter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-alton-sterling-shooting_us_577da655e4b0344d514dec0c
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 08:08:29 AM
And another one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?

In America?

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6262.0.html

;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 07, 2016, 09:30:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?

In America?

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6262.0.html

;)

Isn't it whites who are most likely to own a gun though? Doesn't really explain why they are so afraid of black people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:47:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 07, 2016, 09:30:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?

In America?

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6262.0.html

;)

Isn't it whites who are most likely to own a gun though? Doesn't really explain why they are so afraid of black people.

According to the article posted above, of the Black folks shot by cops so far in 2016, 61% were armed with a gun (10% were unarmed - it doesn't say what the other 29% had).

QuoteHe is one of 123 black Americans shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to the database. About 10 percent of the black Americans shot and killed were unarmed at the time of the shooting, while about 61 percent were armed with a gun.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

They say 506 people were shot by cops in 2016, of whom 123 were Black - so 24%. Blacks are approximately 12.6% of the US population, so they are being shot in double the numbers that would be expected if it were strictly proportional.

My guess is, if one wants to know why so many Blacks are shot by the cops in America, it is a combination of factors:

1. History of racism and racial animosity, leading cops to act more aggressively towards Blacks (and leading Blacks to be more angry and fearful of cops);

2. Widespread ownership of guns and potential for gun violence, making cops more twitchy;

3. Historical poverty of the Black community compared with the non-Black community (poor people are more likely to have negative interactions with police regardless of race).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 09:51:10 AM
I like how it is implied everything would be cool if blacks were only shot by cops in proportionate numbers. Just need to shoot other ethnicities more and it will be fine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:53:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 09:51:10 AM
I like how it is implied everything would be cool if blacks were only shot by cops in proportionate numbers. Just need to shoot other ethnicities more and it will be fine.

:D

This is part of my point. America has a race problem, a guns problem, and a cops shooting people problem; but all three are related.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 07, 2016, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:47:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 07, 2016, 09:30:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?

In America?

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6262.0.html

;)

Isn't it whites who are most likely to own a gun though? Doesn't really explain why they are so afraid of black people.

According to the article posted above, of the Black folks shot by cops so far in 2016, 61% were armed with a gun (10% were unarmed - it doesn't say what the other 29% had).

QuoteHe is one of 123 black Americans shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to the database. About 10 percent of the black Americans shot and killed were unarmed at the time of the shooting, while about 61 percent were armed with a gun.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

They say 506 people were shot by cops in 2016, of whom 123 were Black - so 24%. Blacks are approximately 12.6% of the US population, so they are being shot in double the numbers that would be expected if it were strictly proportional.

My guess is, if one wants to know why so many Blacks are shot by the cops in America, it is a combination of factors:

1. History of racism and racial animosity, leading cops to act more aggressively towards Blacks (and leading Blacks to be more angry and fearful of cops);

2. Widespread ownership of guns and potential for gun violence, making cops more twitchy;

3. Historical poverty of the Black community compared with the non-Black community (poor people are more likely to have negative interactions with police regardless of race).

Not to be a dick, but come on.

While the issues with racism and over-targeting of black people are very, very real, the #1 reason blacks are shot more often by cops is that black people are more often involved in crimes that get people shot by cops.

There are demographic reasons for this of course that desperately need to be addressed, but the primary driver in black people being shot by cops is black people being involved in crime disproportionately to their numbers.

That of course creates a vicious feedback loop where cops are even more prone to make wrong assumptions, resulting in more blacks being unjustly shot by police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 07, 2016, 11:01:57 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2016, 10:51:34 AM
Not to be a dick, but come on.

While the issues with racism and over-targeting of black people are very, very real, the #1 reason blacks are shot more often by cops is that black people are more often involved in crimes that get people shot by cops.

There are demographic reasons for this of course that desperately need to be addressed, but the primary driver in black people being shot by cops is black people being involved in crime disproportionately to their numbers.

That of course creates a vicious feedback loop where cops are even more prone to make wrong assumptions, resulting in more blacks being unjustly shot by police.

That would be what I had labeled as #3.

I didn't put them in any particular order. If you want to argue that's the most significant factor, you can make your case.

To me, the very existence of the gun issue in the US leads to more people being shot by cops, period; it naturally makes cops more trigger-happy than they would otherwise be. This is a natural and reasonable reaction: if someone is threatening and belligerent without a gun, the cops have a lot of ways to deal with them; with a gun, and they are risking their own lives if they don't shoot first. 

You could have exactly the same crime, poverty and race dynamic, remove the prevalence of guns, and you would see dramatically fewer police shootings.

That's why I say it's a combination of factors. You shouldn't point to historic racism alone, or guns alone, or Black poverty alone; you have to look to all three.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:03:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?

Because it's been drilled into their heads every day that their most important duty, that which is above all else, is to "go home alive at the end of the day."  Not to bear faith and allegiance. Not to faithfully enforce the law. Not to betray one's profession, integrity, character or the public trust.  Not to hold oneself accountable. 

Roll call is about none of this. It's all about going home alive at the end of the day. It's us versus them. It's a war out there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 08:08:29 AM
And another one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)

Philando??
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 07, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 08:08:29 AM
And another one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_mm-minnesota-140am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)

Philando??

That's all you have to say?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:16:26 PM
Just sayin' that's one hell of a name.  But what do you want me to say?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 07, 2016, 12:19:28 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:16:26 PM
Just sayin' that's one hell of a name.  But what do you want me to say?

Quote from: garbon on June 30, 2016, 04:56:35 PM
Tear out your hair and rend your garments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 07, 2016, 12:21:59 PM
There is stupid and amusing, then just stupid, then stupid and tedious, and at the end there is Martinus level of posting.  It seems like you're transitioning to the last level.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:23:11 PM
I mean, it's perfect for when you want to name your kid both "Phil" and "Lando".  And if you're Philando and your woman catches you cheating, you just say "Hey baby, my name's Philando-- what do you expect??"  Genius.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on July 07, 2016, 12:31:24 PM
 :wacko:  You are achieving Martinus levels of stupid.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 07, 2016, 12:31:24 PM
:wacko:  You are achieving Martinus levels of stupid.

How so?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 12:33:38 PM
I think at some point Spicey just decided he was tired trying to reason with us and just went to fucking with us :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 12:34:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:03:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 07, 2016, 08:43:58 AM
Why is the modern cop so scared?

Because it's been drilled into their heads every day that their most important duty, that which is above all else, is to "go home alive at the end of the day."  Not to bear faith and allegiance. Not to faithfully enforce the law. Not to betray one's profession, integrity, character or the public trust.  Not to hold oneself accountable. 

Roll call is about none of this. It's all about going home alive at the end of the day. It's us versus them. It's a war out there.

From a far-back observer's perspective I've felt this for a long time. Do you really think this is the case? And/or do you think it's a problem and we should go back to cops being a little more understanding that they get the guns and the toys and the car but they also accept greater responsibility and less physical safety than Average Joe?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 12:48:13 PM
It is the case IMO.

"Go home alive at the end of the day"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on July 07, 2016, 12:50:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 07, 2016, 12:31:24 PM
:wacko:  You are achieving Martinus levels of stupid.

How so?

An innocent man was shot in front of his wife and daughter and your response is to make fun of his name. Sure, you're doing it in an understated "I'm just sayin'..." kind of way, but you're still mocking the victim of a tragedy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:55:52 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 07, 2016, 12:50:37 PM
An innocent man was shot in front of his wife and daughter and your response is to make fun of his name. Sure, you're doing it in an understated "I'm just sayin'..." kind of way, but you're still mocking the victim of a tragedy.

I'm going to wait until I have the full story before I form an opinion.  Sure, it's shitty that this dude was shot in front of his daughter and girlfriend.  On that I'll agree with you guys.  But do we have anything at this point other than video she took with her phone after the shooting took place?  Or are we trusting her narrative 100%?

Quotebut you're still mocking the victim of a tragedy.

Not really.  Just had never heard the name before.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on July 07, 2016, 12:59:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:55:52 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 07, 2016, 12:50:37 PM
An innocent man was shot in front of his wife and daughter and your response is to make fun of his name. Sure, you're doing it in an understated "I'm just sayin'..." kind of way, but you're still mocking the victim of a tragedy.

I'm going to wait until I have the full story before I form an opinion.  Sure, it's shitty that this dude was shot in front of his daughter and girlfriend.  On that I'll agree with you guys.  But do we have anything at this point other than video she took with her phone after the shooting took place?  Or are we trusting her narrative 100%?

I'm sure the officers will be cleared in due time.

Quote
Quotebut you're still mocking the victim of a tragedy.

Not really.  Just had never heard the name before.

Right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 01:04:10 PM
Exchanges like that make Languish worth the price of admission.  :hug:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 12:55:52 PM
I'm going to wait until I have the full story before I form an opinion.  Sure, it's shitty that this dude was shot in front of his daughter and girlfriend.  On that I'll agree with you guys.  But do we have anything at this point other than video she took with her phone after the shooting took place?  Or are we trusting her narrative 100%?

Evidence is currently rather onesided, since we only have the girlfriends video footage at the moment. But given that the police officer is not contradicting the woman's explanation and that for the rest of the video you can constantly hear him scream and curse in the background (while his colleagues try to calm the situation), it seems likely that he panicked, fucked up and knows it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 01:21:07 PM
Maybe Seedy has a word or two about the officer's composure after the incident.

Edit: Since the WP removed the full video from their article, here is a YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 07, 2016, 01:32:45 PM
yeah, the attack on derspeiss itt is weird. he didn't even say anything outlandish. the comment was pretty tame. story is some random guy who got shot by police--just another incident in a nation of 300 million people. not everyone is going to respond to stories like these with an iphone flashlight vigil, so people should relax.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 01:21:07 PM
Maybe Seedy has a word or two about the officer's composure after the incident.

Edit: Since the WP removed the full video from their article, here is a YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY)

The officer taking the gun out of dudes pocket after they drilled him???????????????
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 01:21:07 PM
Maybe Seedy has a word or two about the officer's composure after the incident.

Edit: Since the WP removed the full video from their article, here is a YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY)

The officer taking the gun out of dudes pocket after they drilled him???????????????

He's talking about the other shooting, with the Chinese policeman.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 02:27:13 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 07, 2016, 01:21:07 PM
Maybe Seedy has a word or two about the officer's composure after the incident.

Edit: Since the WP removed the full video from their article, here is a YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNCbgJ55jQY)

The officer taking the gun out of dudes pocket after they drilled him???????????????

He's talking about the other shooting, with the Chinese policeman.

ching-chong-ching-chong

MUDDA FLUCKA
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 02:39:20 PM
I'd be even less inclined to mess with a Chinese cop, they have a cultural acceptance of police killing people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2016, 06:45:20 PM
The governor of Minnesota believes the Philando shooting was unjustified.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/07/philando-castile-police-shooting-calls-justice-department-inquiry-fbi-minnesota-officers

Quote

Minnesota governor blames Philando Castile police killing on racial bias


Mark Dayton says level of force was 'way in excess' of what was necessary and demands justice department investigation as Obama calls shootings 'a serious problem'

Jon Swaine, Oliver Laughland and Lois Beckett in New York

Thursday 7 July 2016 19.30 BST  Last modified on Friday 8 July 2016 00.20 BST 

The fatal shooting of a black man by police in Minnesota was attributed to racism by the state's governor on Thursday, as Barack Obama urged Americans to admit that the country faced a "serious problem" of prejudice in law enforcement.

Dispensing with the caution typically shown by elected leaders following shootings by police, Governor Mark Dayton blamed the death of Philando Castile on racial bias and said the officer involved used a level of force "way in excess" of what was necessary.

"Would this have happened if the driver and passenger were white?" Dayton asked at a press conference. "I don't think it would have. So I'm forced to confront, and I think all of Minnesota is forced to confront, that this kind of racism exists."

The killing of Castile, 32, is the latest to roil the US in the nearly two years since the fatal shooting by police of an unarmed black 18-year-old in Ferguson, Missouri, led to waves of unrest around the country.

Castile's death was broadcast live on Facebook by his girlfriend after he was shot by an officer through the window of their car during a traffic stop near St Paul on Wednesday evening. Castile had been reaching for identification after warning the officer that he was legally carrying a handgun, according to his girlfriend.

It was the second time this week that the killing by police of an African American was captured on widely shared cellphone video. On Tuesday, 37-year-old Alton Sterling was shot dead during a struggle with two officers in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Sterling, who was selling CDs outside a shop, appeared to have a pistol in his pocket.

Having said in an online statement earlier on Thursday that Americans should "admit we've got a serious problem", Obama told reporters after his arrival in Poland that the shootings must be a "spur to action" for reform. "Change has been too slow, and we have to have a greater sense of urgency about this," he said.

The president urged white Americans to take seriously the "particular burden" placed on minorities by disparities in policing and criminal justice. "When people say 'black lives matter', that doesn't mean 'blue lives don't matter' – it means that all lives matter, but that just right now, the data shows that black folks are more vulnerable to these kind of incidents," said Obama.

The two men were the 135th and 136th African Americans to be killed by police across the US in 2016, according to an ongoing Guardian project to document every death caused by law enforcement officers. In total, 561 people have been killed so far this year.


Castile's mother, Valerie, said she was outraged by the death of the 32-year-old school cafeteria worker. "Every day you hear of another black person being shot down – gunned down – by the people who are supposed to protect us," she told CNN.

Some of the country's most prominent black cultural figures also expressed anger over the shootings. "We are sick and tired of the killings of young men and women in our communities," the singer Beyoncé said in a statement on her website. "It is up to us to take a stand and demand that they 'stop killing us'." An extensive list of names of people killed by US police was projected as a backdrop to Beyoncé's concert in Glasgow, Scotland, on Thursday evening.

Dayton, a Democrat, asked the US Department of Justice to investigate Castile's shooting after protesters gathered outside his mansion overnight and wrapped his gates in crime-scene tape. The department is already reviewing the death of Sterling in Baton Rouge.

"I will do everything in my power to help protect the integrity of that investigation, to ensure a proper and just outcome for all involved," Dayton said in a statement.

A Department of Justice spokesman said in an email that the department "stands ready to provide assistance" to Minnesota authorities in investigating the shooting if required "and will independently assess what further action may be warranted". Officials said on Wednesday that they would open a federal civil rights investigation into Sterling's death in Louisiana.

FBI director James Comey also said on Thursday that the shootings were a cause for concern. Asked in a congressional hearing whether killings such as those of Castile and Sterling were "happening at an alarming rate", Comey replied: "'Yes' is the emphatic answer."


Comey had previously stood out within the Obama administration by focusing on concerns that protests against police shootings may be causing a rise in crime by prompting officers to hold back from confrontations.

Castile and his girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, were pulled over at about 9pm on Wednesday because their car had a broken tail light, according to Reynolds. Quickly starting to film and broadcast to Facebook's live video feature, Reynolds said to the camera that the officer had just opened fire as Castile reached into his pocket.

"He was trying to get out his ID and his wallet out his pocket and he let the officer know that he was that he had a firearm," she says in the video. "He was reaching for his wallet and the officer just shot him in his arm." Reynolds estimated that the officer fired between three and five times.

Castile is seen slumped across a front seat covered in blood. He squirms with his eyes half-open. Reynolds says to camera: "Please don't tell me that he's gone. Please officer, don't tell me that you just did this to him."

As other officers arrive, Reynolds is instructed to leave the vehicle. The phone continues to film as it is laid on the ground.

One distraught-sounding officer, who has not been identified, can be heard shouting "Fuck" repeatedly. After Reynolds is detained, her four-year-old daughter can be heard comforting her. "It's OK mommy," she says.

The deaths of Sterling and Castile have revived protests about the treatment by officers of black people who appear to be carrying firearms legally or non-threateningly, as millions of Americans do every day without incident.

Castile's mother said her son was "trying to do the right things, and live accordingly by the law". Minnesotans are entitled to carry a handgun if they obtain a permit from their local sheriff after earning a training certificate. Reynolds said Castile was licensed to carry his gun.

The officer who shot Castile works for the small St Anthony police department, whose chief John Ohl said in his 2015 annual report that outsiders "can easily overlook just how difficult it can be to deal humanely, as cops must, even with the dregs of our society". The report suggested St Anthony's 23 officers each received an average of 67 hours of training last year, including on de-escalation, the use of force and firearms.

In the Baton Rouge case, police confronted Sterling because he matched the description of a man reported to have threatened someone with a gun. Two video clips of his struggle with police indicate, however, that his pistol remained in his pocket and was removed by officers after he was shot. It was unclear from the footage whether Sterling tried to reach for the weapon.

On Thursday, it was announced that lawyers representing the family of Walter Scott, the 50-year-old African American killed by police in South Carolina in 2015, would now represent members of Sterling's family as well.

"We will demand transparency from the Baton Rouge police department and all other agencies involved in this investigation. We will not stop until every question has been answered," said attorneys L. Chris Stewart and Justin Bamberg in a statement.

Scott's death, which was also captured on video by a witness, resulted in a $6.5m settlement, and murder charges for the white officer who opened fire.

The cases joined a series of flashpoints in recent years including those of Tamir Rice and John Crawford, two young African Americans who were separately shot dead by police in Ohio in 2014 while handling pellet guns in a park and a Walmart store respectively. In both cases, officers fired within seconds of seeing them.

Campaigners said African Americans were treated unfairly to deadly effect. "No matter how well you follow the rules, you can still be dead because you're black," said Brittany Packnett, an activist and former member of Obama's White House policing taskforce. "Compliance has never guaranteed our safety."

Gun rights advocates who are typically forthright in defending firearms owners have been criticised for failing to speak out in support of black people targeted while armed. Asked about the Castile shooting, Jennifer Baker, the National Rifle Association's director of public affairs, said only on Thursday: "We have not issued a statement."

Larry Pratt, the executive director emeritus of Gun Owners of America, bristled at the suggestion that race made a difference. "We don't speak out for black American nor white America or any other kinds of racial position. That is an obnoxious question. Keep asking questions like that and you're going to get hung up on, like right now," he said, then disconnected the line.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Two cops shot in Dallas near a protest march. Here we go.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on July 07, 2016, 09:26:38 PM
Philando's girlfriend seems remarkably calm in that video. I don't mean to imply anything; it is just shocking to me how calm she seems.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 09:27:22 PM
Shock
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 10:02:59 PM
Quote from: Kleves on July 07, 2016, 09:26:38 PM
Philando's girlfriend seems remarkably calm in that video. I don't mean to imply anything; it is just shocking to me how calm she seems.

She should become a police officer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 07, 2016, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Two cops shot in Dallas near a protest march. Here we go.

It was bound to happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:05:54 PM
Up to 3-6 now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 07, 2016, 10:10:54 PM
Huh?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:18:45 PM
Local affiliates, through police sources are saying 3-6 officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:26:19 PM
Quote from: Kleves on July 07, 2016, 09:26:38 PM
Philando's girlfriend seems remarkably calm in that video. I don't mean to imply anything; it is just shocking to me how calm she seems.

I was going to say the exact same thing but I'd have had people all over my ass about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:28:28 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 07, 2016, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Two cops shot in Dallas near a protest march. Here we go.

It was bound to happen.

That's all you have to say?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:28:41 PM
DART reporting 1 killed, 3 wounded

DPD no report other than several wounded.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
One suspect contained.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:32:31 PM
Saw the DPD cuffing and taking away a guy dressed in camo pants on Fox News.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 10:32:52 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 12:34:28 PM
From a far-back observer's perspective I've felt this for a long time. Do you really think this is the case? And/or do you think it's a problem and we should go back to cops being a little more understanding that they get the guns and the toys and the car but they also accept greater responsibility and less physical safety than Average Joe?

I think it is the primary driver in law enforcement culture the last 25 years.  And it has completely poisoned an entire generation.  When I graduated in 1993, there were still cops on the force--not just leadership, but in the academy and on the street--that had been around since the mid- and late-60's, early-70's.  The training, the organization, the culture--certainly not without its problems--had all been predicated on the foundations of the Warren and Burger courts and even, to a lesser extent, the Church Committee.  Before zero tolerance, before Everybody and Their Grandmother's Federal Multi Jurisdictional Evil Doers Task Forces, before 9/11.  You learned your neighborhood.  You patrolled your sector, you didn't pacify it.

But at least there was an emphasis on continuum of force, the expectation that you may actually have to--gasp--put your hands on somebody, that the Glock was the last resort.  Not anymore.  We had a Sergeant Hoover--had the profile of Johnny Unitas if he had been an aircraft carrier, same buzzcut since Eisenhower--man, if you pulled your weapon without the very immediate intention of using it against a specific and identifiable threat, he would've shoved it up your ass.  I'm sure all you military types can appreciate the value of career NCOs, so imagine if they just disappeared in the military like they have in law enforcement--the ones that did staff review on your statement of charges. made sure your paperwork was straight or you didn't leave, that would show up on the scene and sort out the bullshit right quick, that made sure you had your witnesses ready to roll for court, that were constantly reinforcing your training and did your service evaluations--they're all gone.  Sergeants do payroll.  It's the rank you aspire to for specialized units like K9, tactical, detective. They become adjutants for desk brass.  They go to computer camp to fuck up forensics investigations anyway.  It's not about leadership on the street or in the community. 

But the "us versus them" mentality, that you're at war with your community, "OMG they're armed better than we are", "come home alive at the end of the day" by any means necessary? It's bullshit.  And I would say it really began on March 3, 1991, and has only gotten worse.  Police unions are stronger.  It's harder to fire fuck-ups.  It's easier for them to bounce from department to department. Recruitment, training and more importantly, front-line supervision has gone to total shit.  And believe me, it's a lot more difficult to speak up about things than people think. 

Still one of the best pieces in recent years on this mentality and needs for change--
I understood the risks of war when I enlisted as an infantryman. Police officers should understand the risks in their jobs when they enroll in the academy, as well. That means knowing that personal safety can't always come first. That is why it's service. That's why it's sacrifice. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/2015/07/24/2e114e54-2b02-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:34:04 PM
Just heard 10 police officers were shot by shooters from "elevated sniper positions" and that 3 officers were dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:35:47 PM
DPD 2 killed,
DART 1 killed

5 wounded

Ambush from elevated position.

One suspect down, one contained
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 07, 2016, 10:37:22 PM
The butcher's bill.   <_<


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2016, 10:38:56 PM
Christ! :o :(

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm0Amc7UsAAezgL.jpg:large)[/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: Kleves on July 07, 2016, 09:26:38 PM
Philando's girlfriend seems remarkably calm in that video. I don't mean to imply anything; it is just shocking to me how calm she seems.

You know that whole "the black experience with law enforcement is different than the white experience" thingy that, whenever it's mentioned, some people just roll their eyes and "Oh, here we go again with those darkies and their complaining"?  Well, that's it right there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:44:06 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: Kleves on July 07, 2016, 09:26:38 PM
Philando's girlfriend seems remarkably calm in that video. I don't mean to imply anything; it is just shocking to me how calm she seems.

You know that whole "the black experience with law enforcement is different than the white experience" thingy that, whenever it's mentioned, some people just roll their eyes and "Oh, here we go again with those darkies and their complaining"?  Well, that's it right there.

I seem to remember you telling us how the "dazzling urbanites" (back when you used that term rather liberally) acted all animated whenever shit was going down.  Interesting how you've transitioned.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:44:06 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: Kleves on July 07, 2016, 09:26:38 PM
Philando's girlfriend seems remarkably calm in that video. I don't mean to imply anything; it is just shocking to me how calm she seems.

You know that whole "the black experience with law enforcement is different than the white experience" thingy that, whenever it's mentioned, some people just roll their eyes and "Oh, here we go again with those darkies and their complaining"?  Well, that's it right there.

I seem to remember you telling us how the "dazzling urbanites" (back when you used that term rather liberally) acted all animated whenever shit was going down.  Interesting how you've transitioned.

Different groups I thought.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 10:48:56 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 07, 2016, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Two cops shot in Dallas near a protest march. Here we go.

It was bound to happen.

Well that will harden everybody's position real nice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 10:49:11 PM
Yep, this was honestly coming for years, shocked we just now are seeing it. I stupidly hope the shooters are crazy whites because if they're black power types it'll be like gasoline into the fire.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2016, 10:56:44 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 10:49:11 PM
Yep, this was honestly coming for years, shocked we just now are seeing it. I stupidly hope the shooters are crazy whites because if they're black power types it'll be like gasoline into the fire.

I got to agree with Otto here.

I think that the fact that Obama is president greatly delayed the violent response to the revelation of the reality of police violence via the proliferation of video capable cell phones.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:44:06 PM
I seem to remember you telling us how the "dazzling urbanites" (back when you used that term rather liberally) acted all animated whenever shit was going down.  Interesting how you've transitioned.

I realize how you would expect somebody in that position to go all Florida Evans in that sort of situation, what with being little children, little monkey children, flipping out and getting pregnant right then there, but there's a big difference between bitching from the stoop as the unregistered car with the expired paper tags gets towed away and having a twitchy cop and his freshly discharged service weapon, a dead boyfriend and a child all within 5 feet.

Anything else, niggerhater?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:59:24 PM
1 suspect is black. So no crazy white boys.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 07, 2016, 11:00:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm0GeYbUkAAB-w0.jpg)


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:02:23 PM
DPD chief says some officers shot in back.

Total 3 killed, 8 wounded, 1 civie wounded.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:02:39 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:44:06 PM
I seem to remember you telling us how the "dazzling urbanites" (back when you used that term rather liberally) acted all animated whenever shit was going down.  Interesting how you've transitioned.

I realize how you would expect somebody in that position to go all Florida Evans in that sort of situation, what with being little children, little monkey children, flipping out and getting pregnant right then there, but there's a big difference between bitching from the stoop as the unregistered car with the expired paper tags gets towed away and having a twitchy cop and his freshly discharged service weapon, a dead boyfriend and a child all within 5 feet.

Anything else, niggerhater?


You really ought to see a psychiatrist or counselor of some sort to help you deal with your past racism and whatever overcompensation you're dealing with right now.  Because you are projecting things on to me and others that we have never even considered.  Seriously.  Go seek help.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:03:13 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:59:24 PM
1 suspect is black. So no crazy white boys.



Sorry Otto :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:04:34 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 10:49:11 PM
Yep, this was honestly coming for years, shocked we just now are seeing it. I stupidly hope the shooters are crazy whites because if they're black power types it'll be like gasoline into the fire.

It's nothing we haven't seen before.  Black Panthers, Weather Underground.  They killed a lot of cops back in those days. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:06:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.

What did I do this time?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:07:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:06:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.

What did I do this time?

STAY OUT OF THIS VALMY.  I LIKE YOU.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:08:00 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:04:34 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 10:49:11 PM
Yep, this was honestly coming for years, shocked we just now are seeing it. I stupidly hope the shooters are crazy whites because if they're black power types it'll be like gasoline into the fire.

It's nothing we haven't seen before.  Black Panthers, Weather Underground.  They killed a lot of cops back in those days.

This is true. This will do nothing but take headlines away from the Min. and BR shootings.

LE in general will be more edgy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:10:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:06:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.

What did I do this time?

Here, have some Skittles.  You want some iced tea with that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:11:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:07:14 PM
STAY OUT OF THIS VALMY.  I LIKE YOU.

:hug:

This is a really bad development. This year is turning out to be particularly nasty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:12:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:08:00 PM
This is true. This will do nothing but take headlines away from the Min. and BR shootings.

LE in general will be more edgy.

And fire up the Trump Machine along with it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:13:04 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:12:11 PM
And fire up the Trump Machine along with it.

Yeah...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:16:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:59:24 PM
1 suspect is black. So no crazy white boys.

With the sheer number of targets actually hit, I had ruled out Tony Romo pretty early on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 07, 2016, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.
Yeah.  This is why I can't convince anyone to join here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2016, 11:17:55 PM
I'm hearing a 4th officer has died. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:18:47 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:16:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 10:59:24 PM
1 suspect is black. So no crazy white boys.

With the sheer number of targets actually hit, I had ruled out Tony Romo pretty early on.

Romo wouldn't have shot some in the back.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 07, 2016, 11:19:20 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?
March 3, 1991.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:20:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 07, 2016, 11:19:20 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?
March 3, 1991.

What shopping spree was that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:20:40 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?

When has everybody's relations been this bad? When have the relations between Republicans and Democrats been this bad? When have class relations been this bad?

Everybody is losing their damn minds. I am not sure why.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:20:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:18:47 PM
Romo wouldn't have shot some in the back.

Just used his helmet.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:21:48 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 07, 2016, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.
Yeah.  This is why I can't convince anyone to join here.


Please tell me that better more civilized board out there if it is so outrageous here because I have yet to find it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:22:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 07, 2016, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.
Yeah.  This is why I can't convince anyone to join here.


I'm 1 for 1 :showoff: but he's an occasional lurker.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:22:15 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?

Are you assuming they were ever "good", or just varying degrees of "less bad"?  Because that would really depend on who you're asking.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:22:52 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:20:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:18:47 PM
Romo wouldn't have shot some in the back.

Just used his helmet.
:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:23:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:20:40 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?

When has everybody's relations been this bad? When have the relations between Republicans and Democrats been this bad? When have class relations been this bad?

Everybody is losing their damn minds. I am not sure why.

The internet.  I'm sure we'll moderate at some point.  Might take a couple decades, but it will eventually happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Lettow77 on July 07, 2016, 11:26:27 PM
 Given that the black community is absolutely right about the perceived police brutality and oppression they face, and is itself a violent community by nature, I am surprised this isn't more common than it is.

Unfortunately, this will do nothing at all to advance the dialogue of proper consequences for murderous police. It doesn't seem like this will get better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:26:35 PM
So the footage I saw of a suspect in camo pants being arrested was not one of the two suspects.  Both fuckers are at large, with only one of them (the shithead smiling in the pic others have posted) having been sort of identified.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 07, 2016, 11:27:32 PM
Quote from: citizen k on July 07, 2016, 11:00:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm0GeYbUkAAB-w0.jpg)

not him

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi65.tinypic.com%2F230av4.jpg&hash=793cf53a85586ef3d57f4a5e9a7a6047de58b000)

this, plus the guy's brother called in and was adamant that the pictured guy wasn't involved. said his brother was "exercising his second amendment rights" and gave up his gun to police after the shooting started.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:28:13 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:26:35 PM
So the footage I saw of a suspect in camo pants being arrested was not one of the two suspects.  Both fuckers are at large, with only one of them (the shithead smiling in the pic others have posted) having been sort of identified.

Looked like he was wearing a ballistic vest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:29:09 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on July 07, 2016, 11:26:27 PM
Given that the black community is absolutely right about the perceived police brutality and oppression they face, and is itself a violent community by nature, I am surprised this isn't more common than it is.

You managed, once again, to offend 100% of Languish in one sentence.  Congrats.  Seriously.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 11:29:35 PM
Guess I'll skip that black lives matter rally I planned on attending.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:30:43 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 07, 2016, 11:27:32 PM
not him

Have you informed the DPD?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:31:16 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:29:09 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on July 07, 2016, 11:26:27 PM
Given that the black community is absolutely right about the perceived police brutality and oppression they face, and is itself a violent community by nature, I am surprised this isn't more common than it is.

You managed, once again, to offend 100% of Languish in one sentence.  Congrats.  Seriously.

He is from the South.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:31:29 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:28:13 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:26:35 PM
So the footage I saw of a suspect in camo pants being arrested was not one of the two suspects.  Both fuckers are at large, with only one of them (the shithead smiling in the pic others have posted) having been sort of identified.

Looked like he was wearing a ballistic vest.

Yeah, he looked guilty.  But I guess most guys in handcuffs do :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 07, 2016, 11:32:19 PM
on live stream, media is now questioning the guy's brother (the big black guy in a white shirt pictured in the picture I posted). the reporters are acting like such assholes, and the brother and his friends are just pissed. this poor guy, holy shit.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:34:17 PM
The camo shirt guy turned himself in, Lacroix.  Never mind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:35:01 PM
One bystander confirmed injured.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:35:24 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/dallaspd

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm0NfAlUMAA8PNP.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:36:54 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 07, 2016, 11:32:19 PM
on live stream, media is now questioning the guy's brother (the big black guy in a white shirt pictured in the picture I posted). the reporters are acting like such assholes, and the brother and his friends are just pissed. this poor guy, holy shit.  :lol:

Wear cameo and open carry. Yeah right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 11:29:35 PM
Guess I'll skip that black lives matter rally I planned on attending.

You should still go.  We still don't know that this isn't an act of Islamic terrorism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:39:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 07, 2016, 11:29:35 PM
Guess I'll skip that black lives matter rally I planned on attending.

You should still go.  We still don't know that this isn't an act of Islamic terrorism.

Nah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:39:36 PM
Now a bomb threat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:41:12 PM
According to Fox News, one of the suspects was in a shootout with police and is now in custody.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:42:46 PM
Earlier one BLM protester said one of the cops provoked the shooting by "waving his gun" at the crowd at the precise moment when the shooting took place
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:42:46 PM
Earlier one BLM protester said one of the cops provoked the shooting by "waving his gun" at the crowd at the precise moment when the shooting took place
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:50:06 PM
They are still saying one suspect is cornered.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 07, 2016, 11:52:07 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:36:54 PMWear cameo and open carry. Yeah right.

yeah right re: what? camo guy is 100% innocent. guy's brother was on live stream and said they were together standing around (pic confirms this), then camo's brother told camo to hand in his gun to police to avoid any mistake. so, after camo turned in his gun, he still gets blamed.  :D shitty night for him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:52:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:50:06 PM
They are still saying one suspect is cornered.

Yeah, we keep hearing that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:53:16 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:42:46 PM
Earlier one BLM protester said one of the cops provoked the shooting by "waving his gun" at the crowd at the precise moment when the shooting took place
:rolleyes:

That's right; it is theoretically impossible that a police officer's actions would ever escalate a situation, or draw their service weapons without cause.  Just. Doesn't. Happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:53:54 PM
Fox is playing raw vid of a shooter on the ground.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:55:31 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:53:16 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:42:46 PM
Earlier one BLM protester said one of the cops provoked the shooting by "waving his gun" at the crowd at the precise moment when the shooting took place
:rolleyes:

That's right; it is theoretically impossible that a police officer's actions would ever escalate a situation, or draw their service weapons without cause.  Just. Doesn't. Happen.

Stick with that on this incident and you be a fool.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:56:51 PM
Both suspects in custody
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:00:29 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:56:51 PM
Both suspects in custody

It is better the times we can take these shooters alive. It will be interesting to learn who they are and what exactly happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:00:30 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:53:54 PM
Fox is playing raw vid of a shooter on the ground.

Fox News screwed up the video.  But when they got to the early part you see one of the gunmen assaulting the cop, with the cop going down :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:00:29 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:56:51 PM
Both suspects in custody

It is better the times we can take these shooters alive. It will be interesting to learn who they are and what exactly happened.

I prefer them being taken dead.  We'll figure out everything anyway without the sensational news coverage, trial, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 12:02:08 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:55:31 PM
Stick with that on this incident and you be a fool.

Hey now...when everybody was screaming about Oh Noes Teh Mooselimb Terrerists in Orlando, I was the first to call it for what it was, the pilot episode of When Fags Attack!.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 12:02:17 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:00:30 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:53:54 PM
Fox is playing raw vid of a shooter on the ground.

Fox News screwed up the video.  But when they got to the early part you see one of the gunmen assaulting the cop, with the cop going down :(

Yea.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:03:06 AM
 :hmm: NBC's stream is focused on a black mercedes. nothing else, other than camo guy.

are they slow?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 12:03:14 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 12:02:08 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:55:31 PM
Stick with that on this incident and you be a fool.

Hey now...when everybody was screaming about Oh Noes Teh Mooselimb Terrerists in Orlando, I was the first to call it for what it was, the pilot episode of When Fags Attack!.

:cheers:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 12:03:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:00:29 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:56:51 PM
Both suspects in custody

It is better the times we can take these shooters alive. It will be interesting to learn who they are and what exactly happened.

I prefer them being taken dead.  We'll figure out everything anyway without the sensational news coverage, trial, etc.

No you want them alive. Better for the cops. This is race shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 12:25:37 AM
Well shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
https://twitter.com/seguifox13/status/751278909895745537
(warning, this video shows a cop getting shot probably dead)

seems like pretty advanced moves by the shooter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 12:36:01 AM
Wtf they are still negotiating with a suspect at the parking garage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 12:39:55 AM
Eh, not necessarily advanced. Shooter(s) probably are ex-military or have done a lot of private tactical training (although it's hard to find any that isn't garbage, but it is out there.) Shooter had initiative and finished, the cop was ill positioned and probably unaware of his surroundings fully. While more and more training is the norm these days (versus way back in the past when you had Officer Columbo types who couldn't even hit the broad side of a barn with their service weapon) the rule is still that most cops aren't really paramilitary badasses. The day to day job just isn't that, and it's hard for departments to justify the kind of training that would be needed to get every regular patrol cop in the department serious tactical training considering most of them might never use it in their entire careers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:43:56 AM
Otto, the speculation was that this was some very non-front line type cop who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 12:45:58 AM
I'm assuming the first responding police officers were the guys working the protest, and thus were probably regular patrol cops. Some of which may have had advanced tactical training, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of them did not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Phillip V on July 08, 2016, 12:49:05 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 12:45:58 AM
I'm assuming the first responding police officers were the guys working the protest, and thus were probably regular patrol cops. Some of which may have had advanced tactical training, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of them did not.

One interview I watched mentioned that to cover these large events, they bring in reserve/volunteer/retired cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 12:50:51 AM
Lol, if they bring in reserves those guys are barely po-po at all. More like Dwight Schrute wannabes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:55:58 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 12:03:55 AM
No you want them alive. Better for the cops. This is race shit.

And get him on the cover of Rolling Stone a la Joker Tsarnaev?  Nah, I prefer dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 12:57:35 AM
On of the officers killed was a DART offcer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:58:04 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 12:50:51 AM
Lol, if they bring in reserves those guys are barely po-po at all. More like Dwight Schrute wannabes.

I'll have you know that Erik Estrada is a Reserve cop in St. Anthony, Idaho.  So keep that in mind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 01:01:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 12:57:35 AM
On of the officers killed was a DART offcer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit

Yes we know this buddy
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 01:03:52 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 01:01:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 12:57:35 AM
On of the officers killed was a DART offcer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit

Yes we know this buddy

It was a response to Otto. DART officers aren't exactly paramilitary badasses.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 01:08:49 AM
I think you're missing the point I was trying to make and I'm questionable on if I have the energy to explain further. But basically cops aren't infantrymen or vice versa, but they do both have uniforms and guns. If you don't realize that though it can lead to problems in understanding a situation and even extend to causing bad problems in police forces that assume hiring vets is always a great move.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 01:09:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 01:03:52 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 01:01:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 12:57:35 AM
On of the officers killed was a DART offcer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit

Yes we know this buddy

It was a response to Otto. DART officers aren't exactly paramilitary badasses.

So you assume they are what? Neither are regular patrol officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 01:16:59 AM
I'm hearing three in custody and the fourth guy STILL holed up in the parking garage. I wouldn't be shocked if some of those in custody weren't involved. Several BLM protesters were open carrying rifles and wearing varying types of camo/fatigues/tactical clothing and it wouldn't shock me if some of those guys are going to spend some time in custody before being verified as uninvolved.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 01:19:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:43:56 AM
Otto, the speculation was that this was some very non-front line type cop who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

All it takes is losing situational awareness briefly. The cop never saw it coming until it was too late. Who knows, he could have went "black". It happens even to very experienced officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 01:26:01 AM
I'm also not 100% sure how I feel about news disseminating that video. I mean it's a police officer being murdered. I understand it's a story of significant public interest and it isn't really graphic, but I dunno, I feel like that shit should be relegated to sketchy streaming sites not being rebroadcast on a mainstream news network's twitter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 08, 2016, 01:54:19 AM
Well this is all very nor good. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2016, 02:04:38 AM
A fifth officer has passed away.   :(

https://twitter.com/DallasPD/status/751310624253022208

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/07/485185632/3-police-officers-killed-at-least-7-others-wounded-by-2-snipers-in-dallas
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 08, 2016, 02:08:54 AM
Reports of flash bangs being used. Maybe they take the shooter down now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 06:10:06 AM
and I wondered why cops were so scared.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 06:10:06 AM
and I wondered why cops were so scared.

This isn't Pookie and Ray Ray at a random traffic stop.  This is very different.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
https://twitter.com/seguifox13/status/751278909895745537
(warning, this video shows a cop getting shot probably dead)

seems like pretty advanced moves by the shooter

They're saying that was an "assault"-style weapon.  By the sparking off the concrete, looked to me like a semi-automatic shotgun.  Not that it matters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on July 08, 2016, 06:30:46 AM
Hadn't pictured shotguns as sniper weapons.

Anyhow, terrible news those.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 06:40:41 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 08, 2016, 06:30:46 AM
Hadn't pictured shotguns as sniper weapons.

There was more than one person involved, so there was obviously more than one weapon involved.

Apparently one of the suspects is female?

QuoteIn perhaps the most shocking footage to emerge on the horrific and highly televised night, a gunman was filmed sneaking up behind a police officer and shooting the cop several times in the back at point-blank range. It is unclear if the officer survived.

"It looked like an execution honestly," Ismael DeJesus, who took the video from an apartment building, told CNN. DeJesus said he thought the gunman, who carried an assault-style rifle, was wearing body armor as he appeared to get shot and keep going.

The gunman then holed up inside of El Centro's garage, according to police. Dozens of cop cars surrounded the building as officers crouched behind their vehicles.

As he engaged in a shootout with officers, police took three other suspects into custody.

Two suspects were seen climbing into a black Mercedes with a camouflage bag before speeding off. They were apprehended in the Oak Cliff area, a suburb of Dallas.

The third suspect, a woman, was taken into custody near the El Centro garage.

Chief Brown said the three suspects were being interrogated but, as of 12:30 a.m. local time, had not provided information on the motive behind the brazen attack.

Even as Brown spoke to reporters, the fourth suspect was engaged in a standoff with police.

At around 1:26 a.m., there was "a loud boom and what sounded like shattering glass" near El Centro, according to Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Wilonsky.

At around 4 a.m. local time, CNN reported that the gunman holed up inside the garage was dead. Police have not yet confirmed the death and details remained murky Friday morning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 07:07:55 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 06:10:06 AM
and I wondered why cops were so scared.

This isn't Pookie and Ray Ray at a random traffic stop.  This is very different.

Yes but that's how the fear grows.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 07:26:03 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 07:07:55 AM
Yes but that's how the fear grows.

Cops every day aren't worried about sniper attacks, they're worried about the stats over "more officers die from random traffic stops" they get hammered with every day.

No, this isn't how cop fear grows;  this is how continuing to ignore the root problem grows, however. 

You watch the blowback on this develop over the next few days, and watch the narrative develop, the same way Orlando's narrative developed.  See, this is what happens when you let blacks march.  See, this is what happens when you lend credibility to #BlackLivesMatter.  We told you so.

And, by implication, that the victims of excessive police force like those in Baton Rouge and Minneapolis are not only forgotten, but actually deserved what they got.  Watch how the internet will start leaning in on the insinuations that this is President Obama's fault from his comments yesterday.

Hell, you saw it in this thread already. You can set your watch to it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 08, 2016, 07:30:54 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 07, 2016, 11:15:44 PM
When was the last time race relations were this bad?
I think that when Obama was elected, both racists and non-racists, in different ways, realized that this whole race business is not settled at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 08, 2016, 07:49:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2016, 11:21:48 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 07, 2016, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
Wow.  You guys are just-- wow.
Yeah.  This is why I can't convince anyone to join here.


Please tell me that better more civilized board out there if it is so outrageous here because I have yet to find it.
Depends what you think of civilized.  I quite like it here, better than elsewhere, but some people's attitude are just... a little too rough for those who don't know us.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 08, 2016, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:53:16 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:42:46 PM
Earlier one BLM protester said one of the cops provoked the shooting by "waving his gun" at the crowd at the precise moment when the shooting took place
:rolleyes:

That's right; it is theoretically impossible that a police officer's actions would ever escalate a situation, or draw their service weapons without cause.  Just. Doesn't. Happen.
yes, of course, these guys they just get into elevated position and used their sniper rifle to get a better view of the parade.  Only when a Dallas cop made a threatening move did they decide to take him down, and 10 of his colleagues to be sure.  They are heroes, really, not criminals.  At worst, misunderstood individuals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 08, 2016, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: viper37 on July 08, 2016, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 07, 2016, 11:53:16 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 07, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2016, 11:42:46 PM
Earlier one BLM protester said one of the cops provoked the shooting by "waving his gun" at the crowd at the precise moment when the shooting took place
:rolleyes:

That's right; it is theoretically impossible that a police officer's actions would ever escalate a situation, or draw their service weapons without cause.  Just. Doesn't. Happen.
yes, of course, these guys they just get into elevated position and used their sniper rifle to get a better view of the parade.  Only when a Dallas cop made a threatening move did they decide to take him down, and 10 of his colleagues to be sure.  They are heroes, really, not criminals.  At worst, misunderstood individuals.

I thought Seed was speaking in general and not of this instance - as clearly that wasn't a provoking action.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 09:09:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2016, 08:08:35 AM
I thought Seed was speaking in general and not of this instance - as clearly that wasn't a provoking action.

You know what really needs to go is all this open carry bullshit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 08, 2016, 09:13:13 AM
You're worst than Obama ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 09:23:21 AM
I admit it. I'm okay with being worse than Obama.

Fuck the second amendment. Take that shit out of our Constitution. You want guns for target practice and hunting? Fine. No problem. You go through a full background check, you get finger-printed, and smile for the camera. Other than that, get rid of the goddamn guns.

So tired of waking up to this bullshit.  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 10:09:54 AM
Give me liberty or give me death!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 10:39:57 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.

:blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 09:23:21 AM
I admit it. I'm okay with being worse than Obama.

Fuck the second amendment. Take that shit out of our Constitution. You want guns for target practice and hunting? Fine. No problem. You go through a full background check, you get finger-printed, and smile for the camera. Other than that, get rid of the goddamn guns.

So tired of waking up to this bullshit.  :mad:

Hear, hear!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 08, 2016, 10:45:20 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 07:26:03 AM
(...)
You watch the blowback on this develop over the next few days, and watch the narrative develop, the same way Orlando's narrative developed.  See, this is what happens when you let blacks march.  See, this is what happens when you lend credibility to #BlackLivesMatter.  We told you so.

And, by implication, that the victims of excessive police force like those in Baton Rouge and Minneapolis are not only forgotten, but actually deserved what they got.  Watch how the internet will start leaning in on the insinuations that this is President Obama's fault from his comments yesterday.
(...)

And here it starts already:

Former Illinois Congressman Joe Walsh is facing a wave of criticism online after he threatened President Obama in a tweet.  He has since deleted the tweet.

https://twitter.com/wkamaubell/status/751277896816144384/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://twitter.com/wkamaubell/status/751277896816144384/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:45:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 10:39:57 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.

:blink:

I believe it was a stun grenade.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 10:46:10 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.

Yes, ordnance delivery has improved substantially since the strategic bombing campaigns in North Vietnam and Philadelphia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:46:35 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 08, 2016, 10:45:20 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 07:26:03 AM
(...)
You watch the blowback on this develop over the next few days, and watch the narrative develop, the same way Orlando's narrative developed.  See, this is what happens when you let blacks march.  See, this is what happens when you lend credibility to #BlackLivesMatter.  We told you so.

And, by implication, that the victims of excessive police force like those in Baton Rouge and Minneapolis are not only forgotten, but actually deserved what they got.  Watch how the internet will start leaning in on the insinuations that this is President Obama's fault from his comments yesterday.
(...)

And here it starts already:

Former Illinois Congressman Joe Walsh is facing a wave of criticism online after he threatened President Obama in a tweet.  He has since deleted the tweet.

https://twitter.com/wkamaubell/status/751277896816144384/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://twitter.com/wkamaubell/status/751277896816144384/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

Yeah because of my fault in not wanting to politicize this event (aka talk about presidential election in this thread), Bob posted a link to that in the presidential election thread.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:45:28 AM
I believe it was a stun grenade.

Ah ok. I was about to say. I don't think anybody thinks having suicide bots would be a nice thing for the police to be able to deploy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 08, 2016, 10:48:58 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 10:46:10 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.

Yes, ordnance delivery has improved substantially since the strategic bombing campaTGigns in North Vietnam and Philadelphia.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 10:51:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:45:28 AM
I believe it was a stun grenade.

Ah ok. I was about to say. I don't think anybody thinks having suicide bots would be a nice thing for the police to be able to deploy.

:secret:  If you ever decide you want to take some hostages and conduct your own armed standoff, [spoiler]don't ever accept a toss phone from the police. [/spoiler]  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 08, 2016, 10:51:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:46:35 AM
Yeah because of my fault in not wanting to politicize this event (aka talk about presidential election in this thread), Bob posted a link to that in the presidential election thread.

Ah, haven't seen it. Sorry for bringing it up here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:45:28 AM
I believe it was a stun grenade.

Ah ok. I was about to say. I don't think anybody thinks having suicide bots would be a nice thing for the police to be able to deploy.

Eh.  I dunno.   ABC is straight up saying he was killed by a bomb delivered by a robot.

E: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-dallas-police-man-photo-turned-40426075  First time it was done this way, but still :blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 10:46:10 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.

Yes, ordnance delivery has improved substantially since the strategic bombing campaigns in North Vietnam and Philadelphia.

A B-52 out of Barksdale just takes too long to get there sometimes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 08, 2016, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2016, 10:45:28 AM
I believe it was a stun grenade.

Ah ok. I was about to say. I don't think anybody thinks having suicide bots would be a nice thing for the police to be able to deploy.

Eh.  I dunno.   ABC is straight up saying he was killed by a bomb delivered by a robot.

E: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-dallas-police-man-photo-turned-40426075  First time it was done this way, but still :blink:
Oh wow, yeah that does seem to be that way. Crazy if true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 11:15:32 AM
Dude was an Army Reservist.  Some sort of construction type.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 11:50:42 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 10:36:02 AM
So the cops blew this dude up with a grenade (or something) delivered via robot?  I had no idea that was even a thing police would do.

Never heard of that, either.  First two or three times I read it I assumed the shooter had an explosive device with him and the robot detonated.  Kind of hard core, but if the guy wasn't going to give up and continued to be a threat to people, I guess I can't argue with it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 11:52:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 09:23:21 AM
I admit it. I'm okay with being worse than Obama.

Fuck the second amendment. Take that shit out of our Constitution. You want guns for target practice and hunting? Fine. No problem. You go through a full background check, you get finger-printed, and smile for the camera. Other than that, get rid of the goddamn guns.

So tired of waking up to this bullshit.  :mad:

Hear, hear!

Vetoed.  Let's move on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 11:53:57 AM
It seems now the flags are at half mast more often than they are at full mast.

Fuck.

Be interesting to see what information comes out about these bastards in the next couple days.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 11:52:26 AM
Vetoed.  Let's move on.

Yeah. If you want strict gun control you need to move to another country. Sorry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:00:30 PM
I don't think fingerprinting or more background checks would have done anything about this guy.  He didn't have a record, apparently.  Orlando dude didn't either, did he?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:02:07 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:00:30 PM
I don't think fingerprinting or more background checks would have done anything about this guy.  He didn't have a record, apparently.  Orlando dude didn't either, did he?

Well that is the thing. If you are going to commit some kind of terrorist attack with the intention of being killed or taken prisoner then you probably are not some kind of criminal who is going to stick out. That is kind of a one off.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:02:07 PM
Well that is the thing. If you are going to commit some kind of terrorist attack with the intention of being killed or taken prisoner then you probably are not some kind of criminal who is going to stick out. That is kind of a one off.

Okay, so then why would getting rid of the 2nd amendment, fingerprinting, and background checks have made it so we don't have to wake up to this kind of shit, if you're still going to allow guns for other stuff?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:11:38 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:02:07 PM
Well that is the thing. If you are going to commit some kind of terrorist attack with the intention of being killed or taken prisoner then you probably are not some kind of criminal who is going to stick out. That is kind of a one off.

Okay, so then why would any of that have made it so we don't have to wake up to this kind of shit?

I don't know. That is why I was agreeing with you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:12:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:11:38 PM
I don't know. That is why I was agreeing with you.

Ah.  Right.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Hamilcar on July 08, 2016, 12:23:19 PM
I blame all the angry studies departments churning out people with such a deep sense of their personal oppression. Ethnic studies professors preaching victimhood culture are at the root of this. Defund the humanities now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 12:23:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 11:52:26 AM
Vetoed.  Let's move on.

Yeah. If you want strict gun control you need to move to another country. Sorry.

Working on it....  <_<
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 12:23:31 PM

Working on it....  <_<

Hey I hear you know a Canadian. Or is he still a Canadian?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
Cop shot in the neck in the St Louis area during a traffic stop: http://fox2now.com/2016/07/08/report-officer-shot-in-ballwin-manhunt-underway/

Another officer in the Atlanta area was shot AT, but the guy missed: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-gunman-vehicle-shoots-georgia-officer-40429107
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:33:52 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
Cop shot in the neck in the St Louis area during a traffic stop: http://fox2now.com/2016/07/08/report-officer-shot-in-ballwin-manhunt-underway/

Another officer in the Atlanta area was shot AT, but the guy missed: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-gunman-vehicle-shoots-georgia-officer-40429107

Sounds like they captured both of them. Hope that cop in Missouri is alright.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Hamilcar on July 08, 2016, 12:34:37 PM
Intersectionality kills.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 09:23:21 AM
I admit it. I'm okay with being worse than Obama.

Fuck the second amendment. Take that shit out of our Constitution. You want guns for target practice and hunting? Fine. No problem. You go through a full background check, you get finger-printed, and smile for the camera. Other than that, get rid of the goddamn guns.

So tired of waking up to this bullshit.  :mad:

What does a full background check entail, and what are the disqualifyers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:39:16 PM
Besides don't states have the authority to institute something like a thorough background check currently?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:43:12 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:02:07 PM
Well that is the thing. If you are going to commit some kind of terrorist attack with the intention of being killed or taken prisoner then you probably are not some kind of criminal who is going to stick out. That is kind of a one off.

Okay, so then why would getting rid of the 2nd amendment, fingerprinting, and background checks have made it so we don't have to wake up to this kind of shit, if you're still going to allow guns for other stuff?

that's why you ban semi-auto rifles. no reason for people to own those beyond the shooting range
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:46:04 PM
Police in Fresno shot an unarmed 19-year old during a traffic stop: http://abc30.com/news/family-of-19-year-old-shot-by-fresno-police-speak-out/1418051/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 12:46:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 12:23:31 PM

Working on it....  <_<

Hey I hear you know a Canadian. Or is he still a Canadian?

You can't stop being a Canadian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 08, 2016, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:39:16 PM
Besides don't states have the authority to institute something like a thorough background check currently?
yes, but most don't do it, afaik.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:47:41 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:43:12 PM
that's why you ban semi-auto rifles. no reason for people to own those beyond the shooting range

No thanks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:49:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 08, 2016, 12:46:53 PM
yes, but most don't do it, afaik.

Things like this are pretty regional. I could see something like this be in place in Illinois.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:46:04 PM
Police in Fresno shot an unarmed 19-year old during a traffic stop: http://abc30.com/news/family-of-19-year-old-shot-by-fresno-police-speak-out/1418051/

Well shit. What a disgraceful and horrible story that is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:56:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:46:04 PM
Police in Fresno shot an unarmed 19-year old during a traffic stop: http://abc30.com/news/family-of-19-year-old-shot-by-fresno-police-speak-out/1418051/

Well shit. What a disgraceful and horrible story that is.

Probably won't generate any national outrage, though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:56:53 PM
Anyone else getting a Rupaul vibe from the Dallas Police Chief?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 12:57:56 PM
They shot a white kid? Oh those dumb-asses are going to get put on administrative paid leave now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:58:03 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:43:12 PM
that's why you ban semi-auto rifles. no reason for people to own those beyond the shooting range

Handguns are used most of the time, not semiauto rifles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:56:26 PM
Probably won't generate any national outrage, though.

Why not?

Oh the race thing. Right for some reason the fact that everybody is being shot by police seems to be less of a problem than that black people are shot more. It is an annoying way to split the population on this issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:59:08 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 12:57:56 PM
They shot a white kid? Oh those dumb-asses are going to get put on administrative paid leave now.

Happens pretty often so I don't appreciate the attitude asshole.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:59:31 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:58:03 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:43:12 PM
that's why you ban semi-auto rifles. no reason for people to own those beyond the shooting range

Handguns are used most of the time, not semiauto rifles.

In most gun deaths yes. In these kinds of mass shootings less so. It is much easier to accidentally shoot yourself or somebody close to you, or commit suicide, with a handgun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:59:31 PM
In most gun deaths yes. In these kinds of mass shootings less so.

I mean...that's what we're trying to get rid of by banning guns right?  Why wouldn't you go for the things that cause the most gun deaths?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:02:13 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:59:31 PM
In most gun deaths yes. In these kinds of mass shootings less so.

I mean...that's what we're trying to get rid of by banning guns right?  Why wouldn't you go for the things that cause the most gun deaths?

I was explaining why ARs are being singled out in reaction to these shootings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:09:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:02:13 PM
I was explaining why ARs are being singled out in reaction to these shootings.

Your explanation isn't necessary. 

Banning semiauto rifles is fine, but lets not pretend it's going to keep us from having to wake up to things like this.   Easy example:  VaTech asshole had a 9mm and a damn .22, both handguns. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:10:04 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 12:58:03 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 12:43:12 PM
that's why you ban semi-auto rifles. no reason for people to own those beyond the shooting range

Handguns are used most of the time, not semiauto rifles.

see valmy's response. mass shooters typically use legally purchased semi-autos. there's no justification in keeping them beyond "personal safety" (which is satisfied with other weapons less useful to commit mass casualties in a mass shooting).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:12:24 PM
easier to kill someone with a semi-auto than a handgun in a mass shooter scenario.

personally, I agree handguns should be banned too, but that's just not going to happen in this generation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:12:49 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:09:25 PM
Banning semiauto rifles is fine, but lets not pretend it's going to keep us from having to wake up to things like this.   Easy example:  VaTech asshole had a 9mm and a damn .22, both handguns. 

I am pretending no such thing. :P

Besides LaCroix is not Merithyn so don't use her words against him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:16:22 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:10:04 PM
see valmy's response. mass shooters typically use legally purchased semi-autos. there's no justification in keeping them beyond "personal safety" (which is satisfied with other weapons less useful to commit mass casualties in a mass shooting).

No, mass shooters typically use handguns.   I imagine it's due to the fact that they're easier to move to and from places. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:12:49 PM
I am pretending no such thing. :P

Besides LaCroix is not Merithyn so don't use her words against him.

I guess he shouldn't have commented in the first place?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:18:52 PM
Dude chill none of this is going to happen in Texas anyway.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:17:08 PM
I guess he shouldn't have commented in the first place?

Huh? If he comments it is assumed he said what Meri said? Why? :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
not lately, madburger
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
not lately, madburger

Just because they haven't been on the national news doesn't mean it isn't happening: http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 01:21:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 12:59:08 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 12:57:56 PM
They shot a white kid? Oh those dumb-asses are going to get put on administrative paid leave now.

Happens pretty often so I don't appreciate the attitude asshole.

It happens all the time and nothing ever gets done, I choose assholish un-PC humor as my attitude.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:19:25 PM
Huh? If he comments it is assumed he said what Meri said? Why? :lol:

:huh:  It is specifically what was responded to. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
not lately, madburger

Just because they haven't been on the national news doesn't mean it isn't happening: http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

There are a few factors you need to consider. Handguns are much better for committing crimes. So some shootings happen in the normal course of somebody trying to rob someplace or whatever. So just because it qualifies as a 'mass shooting' in some kind of metric it may not mean what we mean as a mass shooting.

If you are intending to murder as many people as possible as a terrorist act then surely you would want something more accurate with a higher rate of fire.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:24:27 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
not lately, madburger

Just because they haven't been on the national news doesn't mean it isn't happening: http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

mass shooter, not gangland violence. guy goes into a crowd and starts shooting without personal knowledge of anyone he's shooting at.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2016, 01:21:25 PM
It happens all the time and nothing ever gets done, I choose assholish un-PC humor as my attitude.

Yes but as a result of processes that happened over decades. Also I question the idea that nothing is being done. Plenty is happening.

But even if it was not cheering and making jokes about the death of my countrymen is a shit thing to do so fuck you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:27:37 PM
as soon as I saw madburger's link with all those 3-5 casualties, I was like, "does this shit include gang related violence?" sure enough. it's a useless list if we're talking about mass shooters by a modern definition. I've said this before, but mass shootings are on the rise. and why not? it works. with some preparation, you can take your anger out on society. there's a reason it's exploded in popularity in the past few decades.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:31:33 PM
Oh okay, so you guys are only interested in super high profile shit like what happened yesterday and not worried about actually making some meaningful changes.  Got it.  Meri's solution is probably better than just banning semi-auto rifles, btw.
jfc
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:37:25 PM
meaningful change? you're not going to end gang violence or massacres over things like family disputes, etc. that stuff has always happened and will always happen to some degree, whether it's with guns or knives. modern day mass shootings to the degree that's happening in the US is a new phenomenon. we can keep our semi-autos, but it's just going to mean more casualties in these scenarios. with handguns, it's harder to kill as many people, so there's a better argument for keeping those around.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 08, 2016, 01:45:09 PM
Its very simple.

No matter what proposed restriction or sane law you can come up with, the gun nuts can come up with a scenario where it would not have stopped some particular class of violence.

If you propose banning asssault rifles, they point out that VT was handguns.

If you want to restrict handguns, it is pointed out that Orlando was a rifle.

If you want to reduce clip sizes, there is some case where some guy with 12 small clips managed to kill a bunch of people.

It doesn't matter - there is no possible restriction you can propose that these people will accept. The answer is always "No", and the justification is secondary.

More guns with more power and more ammo is the only possible answer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 01:48:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2016, 01:45:09 PM
Its very simple.

No matter what proposed restriction or sane law you can come up with, the gun nuts can come up with a scenario where it would not have stopped some particular class of violence.

If you propose banning asssault rifles, they point out that VT was handguns.

If you want to restrict handguns, it is pointed out that Orlando was a rifle.

If you want to reduce clip sizes, there is some case where some guy with 12 small clips managed to kill a bunch of people.

It doesn't matter - there is no possible restriction you can propose that these people will accept. The answer is always "No", and the justification is secondary.

More guns with more power and more ammo is the only possible answer.

So let's all agree the gun nuts are terrible people.  That should solve the problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:48:25 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:37:25 PM
meaningful change? you're not going to end gang violence or massacres over things like family disputes, etc. that stuff has always happened and will always happen to some degree, whether it's with guns or knives. modern day mass shootings to the degree that's happening in the US is a new phenomenon. we can keep our semi-autos, but it's just going to mean more casualties in these scenarios. with handguns, it's harder to kill as many people, so there's a better argument for keeping those around.

You would stop certain, specific, things, but again, the real problem is handguns (really, you need to completely get rid of both for big changes.  How realistic is that?  Well.....I dunno).  If you just ban semi-auto rifles, sure, you're not going to have some asshole "sniping" police from the top of a building with them anymore, which is good, but there's nothing stopping them from just taking a couple handguns and walking into a building and shooting everyone he sees. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:31:33 PM
Oh okay, so you guys are only interested in super high profile shit like what happened yesterday and not worried about actually making some meaningful changes.  Got it.  Meri's solution is probably better than just banning semi-auto rifles, btw.
jfc

I don't think meaningful change as far as banning guns is concerned is particularly practical. I don't see how a handgun ban is Constitutional.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 01:53:04 PM
So why did police have to blow up the last shooter?

I mean - he was contained, right?  Surely they could have waited him out?  Or am I missing something.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:54:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 01:53:04 PM
So why did police have to blow up the last shooter?

I mean - he was contained, right?  Surely they could have waited him out?  Or am I missing something.

Good question. I am rather shocked they had the means and option to blow him up in the first place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 08, 2016, 01:54:47 PM
I think to some degree there's a level of comfortableness that can maybe push someone over the edge into going from potentially-mass shooter to full fledged mass shooter. the more powerful the weapon available to him, the more likely he decides to actually mass shoot. yeah, there have been mass knifing incidences, but their frequency is so small that it basically never happens. would this guy have done the same thing if he couldn't use a semi-auto to play army-of-one rebel against The System committing genocide against his black brethren? I don't know, but I think it's possible that having a more powerful weapon can convince someone to take that next step.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:55:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:52:29 PM
I don't think meaningful change as far as banning guns is concerned is particularly practical. I don't see how a handgun ban is Constitutional.

Why not?  Continue to allow shotguns and bolt action rifles.  The populace is still...er...bearing arms.  Oh, I mean, yeah there would be massive opposition, just like there would be massive opposition to banning "assault style rifles" and shit like that.  But if you're going to do it, fucking do it right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 01:53:04 PM
So why did police have to blow up the last shooter?

I mean - he was contained, right?  Surely they could have waited him out?  Or am I missing something.

From what the DPD said he was still a threat and able to shoot at the police officers and possibly bystanders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 01:53:04 PM
So why did police have to blow up the last shooter?

I mean - he was contained, right?  Surely they could have waited him out?  Or am I missing something.

From what the DPD said he was still a threat and able to shoot at the police officers and possibly bystanders.

So you back up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 02:30:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
So you back up.

Is that a reasonable rule of engagement?  Cordon off 6 blocks of a city or whatever for however long it takes the guy to starve to death?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 02:34:09 PM
At some point weren't they also talking about being worried about bombs and things like that in there with him? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 12:46:04 PM
Police in Fresno shot an unarmed 19-year old during a traffic stop: http://abc30.com/news/family-of-19-year-old-shot-by-fresno-police-speak-out/1418051/

I read that the day it happened. Looks like it was suicide by cop. The kid kept acting like he was reaching for a gun at his back, according to several witnesses.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 03:00:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2016, 01:45:09 PM
Its very simple.

No matter what proposed restriction or sane law you can come up with, the gun nuts can come up with a scenario where it would not have stopped some particular class of violence.

If you propose banning asssault rifles, they point out that VT was handguns.

If you want to restrict handguns, it is pointed out that Orlando was a rifle.

If you want to reduce clip sizes, there is some case where some guy with 12 small clips managed to kill a bunch of people.

It doesn't matter - there is no possible restriction you can propose that these people will accept. The answer is always "No", and the justification is secondary.

More guns with more power and more ammo is the only possible answer.

You know better than to use the word clips improperly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 03:08:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:54:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2016, 01:53:04 PM
So why did police have to blow up the last shooter?

I mean - he was contained, right?  Surely they could have waited him out?  Or am I missing something.

Good question. I am rather shocked they had the means and option to blow him up in the first place.

EOD/Bomb Squad have access to explosive because one of the most common ways to disarm a bomb is with a bomb, which perhaps is counter-intuitive. My suspicion is they used an EOD robot loaded up with EOD charges and detonated it on top of him. In which case it is unprecedented in American policing--not the bomb part, Philadelphia had that covered when it leveled a city block in the 80s to get the MOVE people, but the robot part.

It isn't unprecedented in general though, U.S. forces have been known to rig up EOD robots in Iraq and Afghanistan to be mobile death machines.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
What's the proper use of clip?  Those little bundled packs you stick in the top, like the Lee-Enfield or the M1?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 08, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
What's the proper use of clip?  Those little bundled packs you stick in the top, like the Lee-Enfield or the M1?
Yep.  Technically only the strip-style clip is called a clip.  The magazine-style clips are not technically clips.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:35:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
What's the proper use of clip?  Those little bundled packs you stick in the top, like the Lee-Enfield or the M1?

Yes.  Sometimes they even ship 5.56 ammo on stripper clips, which makes it quicker to load a magazine if you have the magazine speed loader adapter.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_RYwUPr35rLw%2FSMSzcYalaPI%2FAAAAAAAAAM4%2FpgTUU7jUlFo%2Fw1200-h630-p-nu%2FMagazine%2B-%2Bvs%2B-%2BClip.jpg&hash=31872898ae070ca54ca6d84e3cd7fa76113ace4c)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 03:43:08 PM
Thanks spicy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 08, 2016, 03:44:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
What's the proper use of clip?  Those little bundled packs you stick in the top, like the Lee-Enfield or the M1?
Yep.  Technically only the strip-style clip is called a clip.  The magazine-style clips are not technically clips.

It seems to be a sort of litmus test for gun-nuttery to see who gets worked up over the difference.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 03:46:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 08, 2016, 03:44:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
What's the proper use of clip?  Those little bundled packs you stick in the top, like the Lee-Enfield or the M1?
Yep.  Technically only the strip-style clip is called a clip.  The magazine-style clips are not technically clips.

It seems to be a sort of litmus test for gun-nuttery to see who gets worked up over the difference.  :lol:

Its just ignorant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
I suspect Berkut did it on purpose.  I was: triggered :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Legbiter on July 08, 2016, 03:50:46 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 03:08:01 PMEOD/Bomb Squad have access to explosive because one of the most common ways to disarm a bomb is with a bomb, which perhaps is counter-intuitive. My suspicion is they used an EOD robot loaded up with EOD charges and detonated it on top of him. In which case it is unprecedented in American policing--not the bomb part, Philadelphia had that covered when it leveled a city block in the 80s to get the MOVE people, but the robot part.

It isn't unprecedented in general though, U.S. forces have been known to rig up EOD robots in Iraq and Afghanistan to be mobile death machines.

Ingenious.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 08, 2016, 03:57:58 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 01:55:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2016, 01:52:29 PM
I don't think meaningful change as far as banning guns is concerned is particularly practical. I don't see how a handgun ban is Constitutional.

Why not?  Continue to allow shotguns and bolt action rifles.  The populace is still...er...bearing arms.  Oh, I mean, yeah there would be massive opposition, just like there would be massive opposition to banning "assault style rifles" and shit like that.  But if you're going to do it, fucking do it right.

This is pretty much where our gun laws are at, shotguns and rifles need a license and proof of being securely kept when not in use. And no handguns.

Works in that criminals and nutters are having extreme difficulty finding firearms to use.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 03:58:14 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 08, 2016, 03:44:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
What's the proper use of clip?  Those little bundled packs you stick in the top, like the Lee-Enfield or the M1?
Yep.  Technically only the strip-style clip is called a clip.  The magazine-style clips are not technically clips.

It seems to be a sort of litmus test for gun-nuttery to see who gets worked up over the difference.  :lol:

Meh, you can call them bullet-holders or boom boom boxes for all I give a fuck. I just honestly think Berk knew better and I expected more, it's technically incorrect to use the wrong terms ;).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 04:15:45 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:35:53 PMYes.  Sometimes they even ship 5.56 ammo on stripper clips, which makes it quicker to load a magazine if you have the magazine speed loader adapter.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvbWzGDg.jpg&hash=287e1afb216a946c248f7d3caad47dbf127413f3)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 08, 2016, 04:30:36 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 04:15:45 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:35:53 PMYes.  Sometimes they even ship 5.56 ammo on stripper clips, which makes it quicker to load a magazine if you have the magazine speed loader adapter.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvbWzGDg.jpg&hash=287e1afb216a946c248f7d3caad47dbf127413f3)

I have an uplula for my 9mm mags.  That thing is great. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 04:37:37 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 03:58:14 PM
Meh, you can call them bullet-holders or boom boom boxes for all I give a fuck.

I think I'll go with Bullet Rollups.  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 04:50:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
I suspect Berkut did it on purpose.  I was: triggered :D

:lol:

MAH TRIGGER LOCK COMBO IS 123
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 08, 2016, 06:06:52 PM
What happened with the people arrested?

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 08, 2016, 06:45:34 PM
Quote from: citizen k on July 08, 2016, 06:06:52 PM
What happened with the people arrested?



They signed with the Ravens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 08, 2016, 06:45:44 PM
Too soon?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 08, 2016, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2016, 04:50:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
I suspect Berkut did it on purpose.  I was: triggered :D

:lol:

MAH TRIGGER LOCK COMBO IS 123

Same as my luggage!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 07:07:49 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-exchanges-gunfire-georgia-police-officer-40434452

Quote

ABC News
Submit
00:00

Authorities: 911 Caller Ambushed, Shot Officer in Georgia
By KATE BRUMBACK AND RUSS BYNUM, ASSOCIATED PRESS VALDOSTA, Ga. — Jul 8, 2016, 5:07 PM ET
1K
SHARES
Email
A man who called 911 to report a car break-in Friday ambushed a south Georgia police officer dispatched to the scene, sparking a shootout in which both the officer and suspect were wounded, authorities said. Both are expected to survive.

The shooting in Valdosta, just north of the Georgia-Florida state line, happened hours after five police officers were killed Thursday night in an ambush in Dallas. Despite saying the officer was lured to the scene by the gunman, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation said there was no immediate evidence the shootings were related.

"We're putting pieces together to understand what happened and why, developing witnesses," said Scott Dutton, spokesman for the GBI, which is handling the case at the request of local police. "There's nothing to indicate there's a connection to that."

Officer Randall Hancock was shot multiple times as he responded to a 911 call about a car break-in outside the Three Oaks Apartments just after 8 a.m. Friday, Valdosta Police Chief Brian Childress said at a news conference.

"The officer called out on the radio screaming for assistance," Childress said, and officers from multiple law enforcement agencies swarmed the apartment complex.

The GBI later identified the suspected gunman as 22-year-old Stephen Paul Beck and said it was Beck who also placed the 911 call. Both Childress and Dutton identified the suspect as an Asian male. Charges against Beck were still pending Friday as he was being treated at a Florida hospital, Dutton said.

The officer is white, according to Valdosta city spokeswoman Sementha Mathews.

Dutton said one gunshot hit the officer in the abdomen, just below his protective vest. Other shots hit Hancock's vest. The officer fired back and wounded the suspect.

Hancock underwent surgery at a local hospital and was stable Friday as he rested with his family by his side, Childress said. The suspect was also considered stable, he said.

"I'm relieved that my officer is fine," Childress said. "I am also equally relieved that the offender is going to make it."

The police chief said Hancock was wearing a body camera, and its video footage had been turned over to the GBI.

Childress declined to comment on any possible motive when asked about his officer being shot so soon after the Dallas attacks. The Dallas officers were shot during a protest over the recent killings of black men by police in Minnesota and Louisiana.

"You start to wonder," the police chief said. "But any motive of why this happened this morning, it would be speculation."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2016, 07:08:36 PM
Heard on NPR that Dallas dead dude was sole shooter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 08, 2016, 07:41:58 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2016, 09:23:21 AM
I admit it. I'm okay with being worse than Obama.

Fuck the second amendment. Take that shit out of our Constitution. You want guns for target practice and hunting? Fine. No problem. You go through a full background check, you get finger-printed, and smile for the camera. Other than that, get rid of the goddamn guns.

So tired of waking up to this bullshit.  :mad:

There is a legal way to appeal it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 08, 2016, 04:15:45 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 03:35:53 PMYes.  Sometimes they even ship 5.56 ammo on stripper clips, which makes it quicker to load a magazine if you have the magazine speed loader adapter.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvbWzGDg.jpg&hash=287e1afb216a946c248f7d3caad47dbf127413f3)

This simple thing works great if they're already on strippers:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.instructables.com%2FFF7%2F7QIF%2FFHC3AAVV%2FFF77QIFFHC3AAVV.MEDIUM.jpg&hash=d2f2eb367eef9f29dfd58f81f9b4df42796df6a9)


In my AK days I used to be able to load AK magazines from SKS-type stripper clips without any adapter. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on July 08, 2016, 10:42:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 08, 2016, 08:02:14 PM

This simple thing works great if they're already on strippers:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.instructables.com%2FFF7%2F7QIF%2FFHC3AAVV%2FFF77QIFFHC3AAVV.MEDIUM.jpg&hash=d2f2eb367eef9f29dfd58f81f9b4df42796df6a9)

In my AK days I used to be able to load AK magazines from SKS-type stripper clips without any adapter.

What kind of strip clubs do you go to? :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 09, 2016, 12:30:36 AM
So how is that micropenis working out for you guys?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 12:37:52 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 09, 2016, 12:30:36 AM
So how is that micropenis working out for you guys?

Moron.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 09, 2016, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 09, 2016, 12:30:36 AM
So how is that micropenis working out for you guys?

Better than yours is, I dare say.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 09:18:42 AM
So, when is the big discussion on US Army-inspired terrorism going to start?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on July 09, 2016, 11:16:33 AM
There was a black lives matter protest in Atlanta yesterday, I was encouraged to go home early, but since I was going to be working past midnight, figured it would be done by then. The protest involved blocking roads. It was still going when I left work, and my normal way home was blocked by a bunch of cops and a bunch more protesters. The cops were in a line, and one really big protestor was reasonably close to one of the cops in the line and jawing at him about something.

Way to win over public opinion, guys.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 11:21:02 AM
I don't think BLM is about winning friends, it is about making people deal with an issue they would rather ignore.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 09, 2016, 11:36:47 AM
It's about inconveniencing white people and making them feel less secure/comfortable, yes.  But I don't see how that's constructive. If anything it makes things worse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 11:41:20 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2016, 11:36:47 AM
It's about inconveniencing white people and making them feel less secure/comfortable, yes.

I am not particularly inconvenienced by people demanding cops stop shooting people. Nor does that make me feel less secure or comfortable. I am well aware they are obnoxious jerks but less so than the Trump assholes. Do they wave Confederate Flags and scream racist slogans? No? Then color me less inconvenienced and more comfortable.

So YMMV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 12:13:57 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 09:18:42 AM
So, when is the big discussion on US Army-inspired terrorism going to start?

Easy there Clayton Bigsby not so hasty. Thinking that just because he's black, was in the Army, does not make him a terrorist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 09, 2016, 12:29:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 11:41:20 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2016, 11:36:47 AM
It's about inconveniencing white people and making them feel less secure/comfortable, yes.

I am not particularly inconvenienced by people demanding cops stop shooting people. Nor does that make me feel less secure or comfortable. I am well aware they are obnoxious jerks but less so than the Trump assholes. Do they wave Confederate Flags and scream racist slogans? No? Then color me less inconvenienced and more comfortable.

So YMMV.

Easier for you to say than it is for Dorsey--it wasn't your route home they were blocking.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 12:42:19 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2016, 11:16:33 AM
There was a black lives matter protest in Atlanta yesterday, I was encouraged to go home early, but since I was going to be working past midnight, figured it would be done by then. The protest involved blocking roads. It was still going when I left work, and my normal way home was blocked by a bunch of cops and a bunch more protesters. The cops were in a line, and one really big protestor was reasonably close to one of the cops in the line and jawing at him about something.

Way to win over public opinion, guys.  :rolleyes:


They are sure trying to win the PO.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/feb/25/marissa-johnson-black-lives-matter-leader-explains/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 12:48:15 PM
Oh, those silly niggers, being all silly and complaining and whatnot.  Oh, sigh.  Just really wish they would go back to being quiet and knowing their place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 09, 2016, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 11:41:20 AM
I am not particularly inconvenienced by people demanding cops stop shooting people. Nor does that make me feel less secure or comfortable. I am well aware they are obnoxious jerks but less so than the Trump assholes. Do they wave Confederate Flags and scream racist slogans? No? Then color me less inconvenienced and more comfortable.

So YMMV.

Nobody is inconvenienced by demands.  People are inconvenienced by blocked roads, interrupted parades, shouted down speeches, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 12:52:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 12:48:15 PM
Oh, those silly niggers, being all silly and complaining and whatnot.  Oh, sigh.  Just really wish they would go back to being quiet and knowing their place.

Quote

"You start to think it's me against the world. And with that type of mentality, we'll implode as a people," he said. "We'll implode not as ethnicity as a people, but as a people, period. We're all one race at the end of the day. If we get a 'me against the world' mentality ― last night I was thinking, maybe it's not black lives matter or all lives matter, maybe it's just my life matters. Maybe it's just my family's life matters. I had to recover from that spiritually."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 12:54:53 PM
It was just a lot easier to shoot them in the 1950s.  Now, they're all uppity and think they don't deserve it and shit. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 09, 2016, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 12:48:15 PM
Oh, those silly niggers, being all silly and complaining and whatnot.  Oh, sigh.  Just really wish they would go back to being quiet and knowing their place.

Pandora's box was opened. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
All lives matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on July 09, 2016, 01:10:43 PM
Dps, to be clear, it added about 5 to my drive--There was an open alternate route. A drunk driver flipping his car over on the highway (once I had gotten on the highway) could have been much more of an inconvenience, and such things frequently occur.

I do think Valmy is misinterpreting the impact the protesters are having, and I'm not sure the purpose of comparing them to Trump supporters, who are generally asshats. I was encouraged to leave work early to avoid them, and a friend (who knew I would ignore the request) tried to convince me otherwise on the grounds that going through the protests wouldn't just be inconvenient but unsafe. I think that a number of members of the general public would be frightened by encountering a very large crowd (of black people, fwiw-even if it shouldn't matter it does), blocking their road home after midnight, right after the incident in Dallas, with a zillion police cars with their lights flashing, and a line of cops out, and with some members of the crowd appearing to non violently confront them. I also suspect it was a very stressful evening for some of the police officers--which is unfortunate since those are the guys that are going to be policing their streets and hopefully not shooting them.

If the purpose of the protests are to draw attention to the problems between the black community and largely white police forces, I think protests last night do so. But I think it pushes a lot of white people to the side of the cops rather than to the protesters' perspective.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 09, 2016, 01:13:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
All lives matter.

Yeah unfortunately white people often seem to forget that.

Or perhaps more accurately, don't believe that to be true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 11:21:02 AM
I don't think BLM is about winning friends, it is about making people deal with an issue they would rather ignore.

It's a disorganized wreck.  It lacks leadership and clear goals and therefore will never accomplish anything constructive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 11:21:02 AM
I don't think BLM is about winning friends, it is about making people deal with an issue they would rather ignore.

It's a disorganized wreck.  It lacks leadership and clear goals and therefore will never accomplish anything constructive.

This be true. It would be much more effective otherwise.

Organize more effectively on national level. Put pressure on the democratic party where you  have an ear. Don't let them just give lip service. Constitutes matter and they want to get re-elected. The dems could bring pressure on the police department's to change their culture. Use MLK's model. Don't let the sellout NAACP take over your message. The political climate is way more supportive nowadays than back in the early sixties. Don't want to do that? Your message will be nothing more than a bunch of whining.


Rope in  other minorites, which would mean a name change from BLM. If you can't do that then maybe you are a racist organization. Maybe only black lives do matter to you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 01:51:59 PM
The blacks get a Black History Month, but there's no White History Month?  #AllMonthsMatter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 01:54:32 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 01:51:59 PM
The blacks get a Black History Month, but there's no White History Month?  #AllMonthsMatter

Who cares.


Organize more effectively on national level. Put pressure on the democratic party where you  have an ear. Don't let them just give lip service. Constitutes matter and they want to get re-elected. The dems could bring pressure on the police department's to change their culture. Use MLK's model. Don't let the sellout NAACP take over your message. The political climate is way more supportive nowadays than back in the early sixties. Don't want to do that? Your message will be nothing more than a bunch of whining.


Rope in  other minorites, which would mean a name change from BLM. If you can't do that then maybe you are a racist organization. Maybe only black lives do matter to you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 01:57:00 PM
You're so full of horse shit.  The only thing more threatening than niggers are niggers with leaders.  Go fuck yourself and your faux concern, fuckstick.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 09, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
I find CdM's black militant attitude of the last few years odd since I think he's the only one here who made a career out of beating black folk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 09, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
I think it would help their cause immensely if they put concrete policy proposals on the table.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 02:17:20 PM
QuoteMinistry of Foreign Affairs and Immigration Issues Travel Advisory for Bahamians traveling to United States of America

For Immediate Release
8 July 2016

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Immigration has taken a note of the recent tensions in some American cities over shootings of young black males by police officers.

At the commencement of the Independence holiday weekend, many Bahamians will no doubt use the opportunity to travel, in particular to destinations in the United States.

We wish to advise all Bahamians traveling to the US but especially to the affected cities to exercise appropriate caution generally. In particular young males are asked to exercise extreme caution in affected cities in their interactions with the police. Do not be confrontational and cooperate.

If there is any issue please allow consular offices for The Bahamas to deal with the issues. Do not get involved in political or other demonstrations under any circumstances and avoid crowds.

The Bahamas has consular offices in New York, Washington, Miami and Atlanta and honorary consuls in Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago and Houston.

Their addresses are on the Ministry's website – mofa.gov.bs

Pay attention to the public notices and news announcements in the city that you are visiting.

Be safe, enjoy the holiday weekend and be sensible.

end
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 01:57:00 PM
You're so full of horse shit.  The only thing more threatening than niggers are niggers with leaders.  Go fuck yourself and your faux concern, fuckstick.

Then all they are going to hear is wonk wonk wonk. Have fun with that.

You're the one full of shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 03:08:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 09, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
I think it would help their cause immensely if they put concrete policy proposals on the table.

Yes it would.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 09, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
I find CdM's black militant attitude of the last few years odd since I think he's the only one here who made a career out of beating black folk.

Race hate comes in many forms.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 09, 2016, 03:34:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 09, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
I find CdM's black militant attitude of the last few years odd since I think he's the only one here who made a career out of beating black folk.

Race hate comes in many forms.
But the vast majority of the time it comes in the most basic and straightforward form.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 09, 2016, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 09, 2016, 03:34:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 09, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
I find CdM's black militant attitude of the last few years odd since I think he's the only one here who made a career out of beating black folk.

Race hate comes in many forms.
But the vast majority of the time it comes in the most basic and straightforward form.

Indeed.

I cannot really come up with a objective and reasoned reason to object to the BLM reason beyond simple racism.

"Please don't shoot us so fucking much" seems like a pretty uncontroversial position.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 04:34:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2016, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 09, 2016, 03:34:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 09, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
I find CdM's black militant attitude of the last few years odd since I think he's the only one here who made a career out of beating black folk.

Race hate comes in many forms.
But the vast majority of the time it comes in the most basic and straightforward form.

Indeed.

I cannot really come up with a objective and reasoned reason to object to the BLM reason beyond simple racism.

"Please don't shoot us so fucking much" seems like a pretty uncontroversial position.

No doubt, but as raz pointed out it could be much more effective.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 04:57:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

How silly. They can be better organized and make a more effective fight to help the PD's that are trying to make changes.

Ironic, most I read about DPD was they were a very progressive department ahead of others in that area.  Yet they get shot down. To include two minority cops killed. Not sure if any Hispanic or black cops were wounded or if it was just "white boys". Not that DPD didn't still have a ways to go.

My dog in the fight is to ruthlessly crush any instances of racial profiling, civil rights violations, excessive use of force of any means in the 120 or so officers under my command.

So please give up the faux black militant act. Get better organized, bring pressure on the political establishment or STFU.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

Somebody has to do it, it's not like the police are stepping up to the plate.  The problem with BLM is the same problem with other contemporary movements (Occupy Wall Street, and to some extent the Tea Party), the refusal or inability to appoint leaders.  With out leaders, they lack direction, planning, and most importantly: discrete goals.  It's all very well to say cops need to stop killing black kids, but you meed some ideas to address the problem.  How do you get from A-B-C-D?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

Somebody has to do it, it's not like the police are stepping up to the plate.  The problem with BLM is the same problem with other contemporary movements (Occupy Wall Street, and to some extent the Tea Party), the refusal or inability to appoint leaders.  With out leaders, they lack direction, planning, and most importantly: discrete goals.  It's all very well to say cops need to stop killing black kids, but you meed some ideas to address the problem.  How do you get from A-B-C-D?

That is not entirely correct and DPD is an example of a department trying to move in the right direction. Their chief is know as a hard as s in the very area of BLM concerns.

There's movement on the cops side, just more pressure needs to be applied to speed it up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 05:15:00 PM
For BR and the Minnesota incidents;

The vic's had opportunity and capability. What I'm not seeing is that the vics  had intent.

You could have the most despicable murdering criminal at gun point. His hands sky high surrendering, a gun, but his finger through the trigger guard with the pistol just hanging there. I can not justify shooting him. You have to have all three to employ deadly force.

I can arrive on scene where "someone" reports a gun being brandished. I can see a gentleman that fits a suspect description, but no gun brandishing. That does not mean I can employ DF, based on those facts alone.

I can pull a car over because the driver fits the description of a BOLO armed robbery suspect. But why in the fuck would I not conduct a high risk traffic stop/felony stop, the safer option for all involved. Why would I (officer) walk up to the car all routine like if I'm so worried about "officer safety". That bothers me immensely about that one.

That one makes about as much sense as pulling a car over for a minor infraction, running the plate and the car comes back stolen. Then walk up all routine like and ask the the driver, "Sir did you know this car is stolen."  :lmfao:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 09, 2016, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

Somebody has to do it, it's not like the police are stepping up to the plate.  The problem with BLM is the same problem with other contemporary movements (Occupy Wall Street, and to some extent the Tea Party), the refusal or inability to appoint leaders.  With out leaders, they lack direction, planning, and most importantly: discrete goals.  It's all very well to say cops need to stop killing black kids, but you meed some ideas to address the problem.  How do you get from A-B-C-D?

True. I wonder why they have been unable to solve a social ill that has afflicted America since its beginnings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 06:47:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 04:34:37 PM
No doubt, but as raz pointed out it could be much more effective.

Well yeah I have already criticized their agenda of ending capitalism and other left wing nonsense. It would be nice if they were more narrowly focused on the police violence thing. But to the extent that they are focused on that position I certainly am not going to be too bothered by it. After all it is not just black people being killed. This is a major problem for this entire country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2016, 06:47:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 04:34:37 PM
No doubt, but as raz pointed out it could be much more effective.

Well yeah I have already criticized their agenda of ending capitalism and other left wing nonsense. It would be nice if they were more narrowly focused on the police violence thing. But to the extent that they are focused on that position I certainly am not going to be too bothered by it. After all it is not just black people being killed. This is a major problem for this entire country.

Never knew they had the ending capitalism nonsense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 09, 2016, 08:51:50 PM
Apparently the asshole in Dallas used an SKS.  From what I saw though in that video with the columns, he had whored it all up.  Optics, banana mags, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 09:13:47 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 09, 2016, 08:51:50 PM
Apparently the asshole in Dallas used an SKS.  From what I saw though in that video with the columns, he had whored it all up.  Optics, banana mags, etc.

Not an assault rifle. That should confuse the anti gun nutters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 09:15:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2016, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

Somebody has to do it, it's not like the police are stepping up to the plate.  The problem with BLM is the same problem with other contemporary movements (Occupy Wall Street, and to some extent the Tea Party), the refusal or inability to appoint leaders.  With out leaders, they lack direction, planning, and most importantly: discrete goals.  It's all very well to say cops need to stop killing black kids, but you meed some ideas to address the problem.  How do you get from A-B-C-D?



True. I wonder why they have been unable to solve a social ill that has afflicted America since its beginnings.

As far as I know police officers firing on black citizens was not a major problem in the 1790's.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 09, 2016, 09:30:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 09:13:47 PM
Not an assault rifle. That should confuse the anti gun nutters.

With the optics that it looked like he had on there, he probably had a stock with rails and shit.  Tapco makes some that have a pistol grip and are black and scary looking.  Might as well be a machine gun at that point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 09:43:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPzt7pW3RyY
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 09, 2016, 09:59:54 PM
 :lol:  That's a lot of shit hanging off of that thing, but I guess it matches the ridiculously geared up dudes.

Five round limit in Canada?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 09, 2016, 10:11:13 PM
Yea thought you'd get a kick outta that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 09, 2016, 11:21:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 09:15:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2016, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

Somebody has to do it, it's not like the police are stepping up to the plate.  The problem with BLM is the same problem with other contemporary movements (Occupy Wall Street, and to some extent the Tea Party), the refusal or inability to appoint leaders.  With out leaders, they lack direction, planning, and most importantly: discrete goals.  It's all very well to say cops need to stop killing black kids, but you meed some ideas to address the problem.  How do you get from A-B-C-D?



True. I wonder why they have been unable to solve a social ill that has afflicted America since its beginnings.

As far as I know police officers firing on black citizens was not a major problem in the 1790's.
you make a point to take everything literrally? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 03:55:45 AM
Quote from: viper37 on July 09, 2016, 11:21:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 09:15:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2016, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2016, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2016, 04:41:37 PM
Yes, the burden of affecting change to ensure not being murdered by the police falls on them.  Of course.

Somebody has to do it, it's not like the police are stepping up to the plate.  The problem with BLM is the same problem with other contemporary movements (Occupy Wall Street, and to some extent the Tea Party), the refusal or inability to appoint leaders.  With out leaders, they lack direction, planning, and most importantly: discrete goals.  It's all very well to say cops need to stop killing black kids, but you meed some ideas to address the problem.  How do you get from A-B-C-D?



True. I wonder why they have been unable to solve a social ill that has afflicted America since its beginnings.

As far as I know police officers firing on black citizens was not a major problem in the 1790's.
you make a point to take everything literrally? :)

Garbon was being trite.  I can be trite right back.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 10, 2016, 05:20:08 AM
Hey you're the one wanting some 20 and 30 somethings to solve issues that countless generations of Americans have been unable/unwilling to fix.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 10, 2016, 11:12:36 AM
I really don't get how anybody can be all bent out of shape people peacefully protesting about this issue. I mean I know we had that one nutcase in Dallas but he was clearly a crazy person. Read his Facebook shit, dude thought white people were all out there poaching endangered species in Africa.

Hell I wish they would clog up all the streets. Maybe the police fraternity can start turning against these out of control bad apples once they see how destabilizing this is and how much more work it provides them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 10, 2016, 11:24:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2016, 11:12:36 AM

Hell I wish they would clog up all the streets. Maybe the police fraternity can start turning against these out of control bad apples once they see how destabilizing this is and how much more work it provides them.

Do you really think that would help?!?  Peaceful protest sure, but I think what you're suggesting would simply elevate tensions, not help find solutions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 10, 2016, 11:48:24 AM
Quote from: dps on July 10, 2016, 11:24:30 AM
Do you really think that would help?!?  Peaceful protest sure, but I think what you're suggesting would simply elevate tensions, not help find solutions.

I might have been speaking out of emotion there :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 01:13:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2016, 05:20:08 AM
Hey you're the one wanting some 20 and 30 somethings to solve issues that countless generations of Americans have been unable/unwilling to fix.

I was under the impression that they wanted to solve these issues, after all, they are part of the movement.  Just to be clear, what issues are we talking about?  I can count fairly high, so I'm a little unsure when you throw in the word "countless".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well. Recently the LGbt movement folks are doing well. I'm sure there other example.

If you want it, go get it. Just don't flap about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on July 10, 2016, 03:31:35 PM
https://www.statista.com/chart/5211/us-citizens-killed-by-police-2016/


Quote
In the U.S. a total of 509 citizens have been killed this year alone by police. The body count for the previous year stands at a grand total of 990 people shot dead, according to the Washington Post. As the below infographic shows, most of those killed by police are male and white. 123 of those shot were Black Americans. This is a relatively high share, keeping in mind that close to 13 percent of Americans belong to that ethnic group.

What's also disturbing is that according to the data compiled by the Washington Post a big proportion of those killed obviously showed signs of mental illness. Of the 509 killed this year at least 124 were thought to be suffering from such conditions. Many of those killed carried guns according to police records. In at least 22 cases officers mistook toy guns for the real thing.

(https://d28wbuch0jlv7v.cloudfront.net/images/infografik/normal/chartoftheday_5211_us_citizens_killed_by_police_2016_n.jpg)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 03:51:04 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 10, 2016, 03:31:35 PM
https://www.statista.com/chart/5211/us-citizens-killed-by-police-2016/


Quote
In the U.S. a total of 509 citizens have been killed this year alone by police. The body count for the previous year stands at a grand total of 990 people shot dead, according to the Washington Post. As the below infographic shows, most of those killed by police are male and white. 123 of those shot were Black Americans. This is a relatively high share, keeping in mind that close to 13 percent of Americans belong to that ethnic group.

What's also disturbing is that according to the data compiled by the Washington Post a big proportion of those killed obviously showed signs of mental illness. Of the 509 killed this year at least 124 were thought to be suffering from such conditions. Many of those killed carried guns according to police records. In at least 22 cases officers mistook toy guns for the real thing.

(https://d28wbuch0jlv7v.cloudfront.net/images/infografik/normal/chartoftheday_5211_us_citizens_killed_by_police_2016_n.jpg)


Not buying it and calling BS. What's the per capita results buy population numbers and ethnic groups. IOW whats the total population numbers of white and black and the percentage of police shooting deaths for each. I think you will find blacks are killed at a higher percentage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 10, 2016, 04:07:31 PM
I'm sure blacks are killed at a higher percentage. that's not necessarily a result of systematic racism (edit) -- systematic racism in police departments
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on July 10, 2016, 04:41:55 PM
Well it does say that blacks are killed at a higher rate than their share of the population.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 04:50:12 PM
24% of dead vs. 13% of population.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 10, 2016, 04:53:06 PM
WTF some cops use toy weapons? Props to the 35 Blue Lees though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on July 10, 2016, 05:17:13 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well.

This is historical hindsight. It has polished all asperities of a movement that was similarly divided, messy, conflicted in its goals, full of unsavory people, etc. The kind of discourse you are holding now was similarly held in the 60s: if only they were protesting "properly".

Conversely, the fact that you now ignore the current grassroot movements, and organizations taking place at a local level does not mean they do not exist, and are not pushing for action in a variety of ways which, I would warrant, are escaping your notice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 10, 2016, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well. Recently the LGbt movement folks are doing well. I'm sure there other example.

If you want it, go get it. Just don't flap about it.

Dude, what the fuck is there to GET?  This isn't about voting rights, or additional funding for school systems, or better access to public transportation;  this is about law enforcement officers willfully and intentionally not following ESTABLISHED POLICIES, PROCEDURES, TRAINING AND CODES OF CONDUCT in the unnecessary killing of unarmed individuals, of whom a disproportionate number are minorities and a criminal justice system that rarely charges these officers, let alone send them to jail.

You fucking know this. Fuck. You know these cops are doing it wrong.  But it's the community that has to "go and get it" or shut the fuck up about it?  Really?

Fucking asshole.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 05:35:32 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on July 10, 2016, 05:17:13 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well.

This is historical hindsight. It has polished all asperities of a movement that was similarly divided, messy, conflicted in its goals, full of unsavory people, etc. The kind of discourse you are holding now was similarly held in the 60s: if only they were protesting "properly".

Conversely, the fact that you now ignore the current grassroot movements, and organizations taking place at a local level does not mean they do not exist, and are not pushing for action in a variety of ways which, I would warrant, are escaping your notice.

Clearly, anyone who questions their effectiveness need to check their privilege.  Actually anyone who can't prove they're black should probably avoid discussing the group at all due to intersectionality issues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 06:02:19 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on July 10, 2016, 05:17:13 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well.

This is historical hindsight. It has polished all asperities of a movement that was similarly divided, messy, conflicted in its goals, full of unsavory people, etc. The kind of discourse you are holding now was similarly held in the 60s: if only they were protesting "properly".

Conversely, the fact that you now ignore the current grassroot movements, and organizations taking place at a local level does not mean they do not exist, and are not pushing for action in a variety of ways which, I would warrant, are escaping your notice.

Missed it. I think they can be more effective than they currently are. I am ignoring?? Ignoring who? Or are you talking in general about the US?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 06:11:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 10, 2016, 05:21:21 PM


Dude, what the fuck is there to GET?  This isn't about voting rights, or additional funding for school systems, or better access to public transportation;  this is about law enforcement officers willfully and intentionally not following ESTABLISHED POLICIES, PROCEDURES, TRAINING AND CODES OF CONDUCT in the unnecessary killing of unarmed individuals, of whom a disproportionate number are minorities and a criminal justice system that rarely charges these officers, let alone send them to jail.

You fucking know this. Fuck. You know these cops are doing it wrong.  But it's the community that has to "go and get it" or shut the fuck up about it?  Really?

Fucking asshole.

And where to do get off saying I defend those cops? That was not said anywhere. I even pointed out on the BR and Min. Shootings what I thought.  :rolleyes: You got to be kidding me.






Quote from: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 01:13:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2016, 05:20:08 AM
Hey you're the one wanting some 20 and 30 somethings to solve issues that countless generations of Americans have been unable/unwilling to fix.

I was under the impression that they wanted to solve these issues, after all, they are part of the movement.  Just to be clear, what issues are we talking about?  I can count fairly high, so I'm a little unsure when you throw in the word "countless".

Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well. Recently the LGbt movement folks are doing well. I'm sure there other example.

If you want it, go get it. Just don't flap about it.



Go get it was in response to countless generations unwilling to fix it comment.

As a whole that was in general on any issue. You are not going to get noticed unless you get the politicians to. Hit them where it hurts.

Not the BLM, who could be more effective. They are out there and they need to get better organized.

Asshole.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 10, 2016, 06:25:14 PM
11B, looks like the initial reports of an SKS were wrong.  Saiga AK pattern instead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 06:33:11 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 10, 2016, 06:25:14 PM
11B, looks like the initial reports of an SKS were wrong.  Saiga AK pattern instead.

Yip that is no SKS.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0226/7001/files/New-Photo-Of-Dead-Dallas-Shooter-And-His-Gun-Surfaces-Online_large.jpg?1587458473284703359)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 10, 2016, 06:55:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 03:51:04 PM

Not buying it and calling BS. What's the per capita results buy population numbers and ethnic groups. IOW whats the total population numbers of white and black and the percentage of police shooting deaths for each. I think you will find blacks are killed at a higher percentage.

24.1% of the killed are black. That's very close to twice their percentage of the population.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 06:57:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2016, 03:50:24 PMIndeed.

I cannot really come up with a objective and reasoned reason to object to the BLM reason beyond simple racism.

"Please don't shoot us so fucking much" seems like a pretty uncontroversial position.

To be honest the black community is both a victim and perpetrator of the problems that have caused their prevalent, historical, systemic underachievement. Which is pretty similar to every other once-oppressed minority anywhere in the world. I think if BLM feels it has to make claims like "every white person is an oppressor", they'll never get mainstream support. If they don't want it, fine.

There are some seriously pernicious cultural norms in the worst black neighborhoods in America that aren't going away without some internal soul searching, and it's interesting there's no major black political movement aimed at that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 10, 2016, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 06:33:11 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 10, 2016, 06:25:14 PM
11B, looks like the initial reports of an SKS were wrong.  Saiga AK pattern instead.

Yip that is no SKS.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0226/7001/files/New-Photo-Of-Dead-Dallas-Shooter-And-His-Gun-Surfaces-Online_large.jpg?1587458473284703359)

Nigga has a better AK than mine.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:02:33 PM
I actually wonder what the death rate was to police shootings 10-15 years ago versus now. It's unfortunate the statistics are of no value since they're based on voluntary reporting, of which only a fraction of departments submit data. But I would actually bet that if we had the real numbers in the past they'd be higher than now, it makes some intrinsic sense that police shootings should map to the amount of crimes in general. Since more crimes means more arrests, and more arrests mean more police-citizen interactions. Since crime is down historically speaking, I suspect there were probably more shootings in the past than now.

I also find it interesting no one wants to ever report on "justified" versus "unjustified" homicide. It's hard for me to find much fault with "white society" for blacks committing violent crimes and being shot to death to stop them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 10, 2016, 07:05:41 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:02:33 PM
I actually wonder what the death rate was to police shootings 10-15 years ago versus now. It's unfortunate the statistics are of no value since they're based on voluntary reporting, of which only a fraction of departments submit data. But I would actually bet that if we had the real numbers in the past they'd be higher than now, it makes some intrinsic sense that police shootings should map to the amount of crimes in general. Since more crimes means more arrests, and more arrests mean more police-citizen interactions. Since crime is down historically speaking, I suspect there were probably more shootings in the past than now.


Likely true, but with cell phone cams now and the proliferation of CCTV, we can all see these shootings now, and if a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video is worth a million.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 07:28:21 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 06:57:28 PM
I think if BLM feels it has to make claims like "every white person is an oppressor", they'll never get mainstream support. If they don't want it, fine.

At which point the question for us non-blacks is do we think what's happening is wrong and do we want it to change, regardless of whether black folks are being dickheads.  And I think the answer has to be yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:30:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 07:28:21 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 06:57:28 PM
I think if BLM feels it has to make claims like "every white person is an oppressor", they'll never get mainstream support. If they don't want it, fine.

At which point the question for us non-blacks is do we think what's happening is wrong and do we want it to change, regardless of whether black folks are being dickheads.  And I think the answer has to be yes.

Some things are wrong, yes. I do think cops today focus way too much on "getting home" to the detriment of anything else. Our resident angry law enforcement types have essentially said as much. But I don't think white America can fix black America. That's actually an arrogant position, but it's essentially what BLM says. By blaming white America for all their ills that, logically, suggests we could wave a magic wand and fix them all if only we weren't so white and evil. But I don't believe that to be the case.

Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 07:34:13 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:30:58 PM


Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

This seemed to be the consensus at the Fergusson riots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 07:35:15 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:30:58 PM
Some things are wrong, yes. I do think cops today focus way too much on "getting home" to the detriment of anything else. Our resident angry law enforcement types have essentially said as much. But I don't think white America can fix black America. That's actually an arrogant position, but it's essentially what BLM says. By blaming white America for all their ills that, logically, suggests we could wave a magic wand and fix them all if only we weren't so white and evil. But I don't believe that to be the case.

Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

(Just like in South Africa.)

Sounds to me you're saying BLM is taking themselves out of the debate, and my implied agreement was suggested above.  But the real debate (or at least the solveable one) is not how to turn every black American into Dr. Huxtable, it's when and under what situations cops should shoot people. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 07:36:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 07:34:13 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:30:58 PM


Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

This seemed to be the consensus at the Fergusson riots.
and the LA riots too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on July 10, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
For those questioning the methods of protest: how does a group effectively act for change when a majority of whites poll that they do not believe that there is a problem of how police treat blacks as opposed to whites?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:41:31 PM
Quote from: PDH on July 10, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
For those questioning the methods of protest: how does a group effectively act for change when a majority of whites poll that they do not believe that there is a problem of how police treat blacks as opposed to whites?

I don't think they do to be honest. I think the age of protests having a meaningful impact are over. America is too into snapchat and the 5 second news cycle, and because protests never spawn anything else meaningful now they are largely pointless. All the big recent historical protest movements have had no discernible impact whatsoever. The anti-WTO protests, the huge protests against us going into Iraq, the occupy wall street protests, and now this.

I just think culturally people acting stupid in the street doesn't have much of an impact in the United States any longer. It's more of a thing to laugh at or be annoyed at, but no one treats protesters seriously.

I speculate a major part of that is the people running protests appear to just enjoy running protests. They have no higher political calling or aptitude. MLK was involved in protests but also was involved in meetings with LBJ, because he was a serious political operator. None of the recent protests movements have had a leader who could be in the same room as a serious politician, because they'd rather use that opportunity to scream at them, spit on them, and be dragged away by security.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 07:42:00 PM
Quote from: PDH on July 10, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
For those questioning the methods of protest: how does a group effectively act for change when a majority of whites poll that they do not believe that there is a problem of how police treat blacks as opposed to whites?

First thing I would do is paint it as a universal problem, not black-only.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 10, 2016, 07:42:40 PM
I think stuff like the Everytown for Gun Safety initiative is an example of how to effect change. You get professional lobbyists, generate monetary donations, and go to work from there. EGS has had some wins, some of the first in ages, on gun control, and they didn't get there by screaming or laying in the interstate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 10, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
Quote from: PDH on July 10, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
For those questioning the methods of protest: how does a group effectively act for change when a majority of whites poll that they do not believe that there is a problem of how police treat blacks as opposed to whites?

With a specific goal in mind.  Protest is the hammer that drives in the nails of law and policy. With out the policy or law you just sitting around beating wood.  Let's say your group writes a law requiring that anyone trained to be a police officer must have a four year degree in criminal justice (just as an example).  Once you find a sympathetic legislator to introduce the bill, you need to weigh every action to see if this helps or hurts get this law passed.  For instance, if you are planning to give a speech on how evil Jews are, you should stop and ask yourself, does this actually help us?  If you don't see it helping you, perhaps you should table the speech until a more appropriate time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on July 10, 2016, 09:13:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 07:42:00 PM
Quote from: PDH on July 10, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
For those questioning the methods of protest: how does a group effectively act for change when a majority of whites poll that they do not believe that there is a problem of how police treat blacks as opposed to whites?

First thing I would do is paint it as a universal problem, not black-only.

It seems likely to me that if the cops-not-following-proper-procedures problem were addressed as its own thing, then blacks would benefit disproportionately just as they are currently being negatively affected disproportionately.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 10, 2016, 11:27:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 07:35:15 PMit's when and under what situations cops should shoot people.

what do you expect when a significant portion of the population carry inherently dangerous weapons? it all stems from that. the evolution of terry stops (to promote police--and public, but mostly police--safety), searches incident to arrest, etc. couple this with criminal cultures that doesn't exist to nearly the same extent as in other countries that similarly allow guns (finland, switzerland). criminal cultures that exist because the US is a freaking rich country, among other factors.

I mean, there are consequences of allowing most people in the US to purchase these dangerous weapons. of course police are going to be allowed to respond in ways that other nations that don't have this condition simply aren't going to allow. if a cop kills a black guy because he hates blacks, then that's horrible. but I don't see any evidence of that in most of these shootings. to me, it seems more like (1) cops are in dangerous situations or have a history of being in dangerous situations / told about or get a sense of how dangerous it is in X community they patrol, (2) being allowed to respond with deadly force, then (3) mistakes happening because of course mistakes are going to happen. these mistakes are broadcasted across the nation and used as further evidence that there's a Big Problem in the US.

if you restrict cops' ability to use deadly force, then you're going to see more dead cops. if you don't restrict their ability to use deadly force, you see dead civilians when mistakes happen. behind all this, america is a gun society--that's a fact. your question seems to imply there's an easy answer to this when there isn't. it's why BLM is kind of ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 11:49:26 PM
Your answer seems to suggest that every individual cop in the US is responds exactly the same to potentially dangerous situations, and that deaths are an uncontrollable random variable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 10, 2016, 11:55:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2016, 11:49:26 PMthat deaths are an uncontrollable random variable.

cops aren't robots, they're human. of course they're going to make mistakes, especially when they're in extremely tense situations because their lives are on the line. those tense situations make them more prone to make mistakes. are the mistakes entirely uncontrollable? no, you can make them more comfortable through better protection (and less likely to make mistakes) with technological advances, but we can't make them invincible. a cop in a dangerous neighborhood can die to a random 911 call, and they know it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:08:23 AM
look at the numbers. US has nation of 318 million, rounded down. there are 240 million 911 calls. there were 986 people killed by police last year. how many were caused by mistakes? etc., etc. you break the numbers down and you get an insanely small percentage of people killed by mistakes. you're never going to reduce it to 0%, not with the factors US police deal with. by no means are they perfect, but I don't see concrete evidence that there's a big problem in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2016, 12:24:13 AM
So your position is that the *only* way to reduce the incidence of mistakes is to increase the safety of the police?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:36:51 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2016, 12:24:13 AM
So your position is that the *only* way to reduce the incidence of mistakes is to increase the safety of the police?

I don't know current policing standards, but assuming they're effective given this is 2016 and based on the already mentioned factors unique (?) to the US police force, then yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Lettow77 on July 11, 2016, 12:47:31 AM
There was a BLM protest in Memphis that was resolved peacefully a couple hours ago. There was a festive spirit to many of the protesters as they frolicked in Beale Street, but a radical element made an unplanned shift to the Hernando De Soto Bridge, blocking traffic trying to cross state lines across the Mississippi river. (I spied some outside agitators in video footage- it may have been at their instigation.)

The police director was very humane and calm throughout the situation, walking among the crowd individually to try and convince them to disperse. He was assisted in his efforts by one Pastor Kyles, who though he came to protest himself, appealed to the crowd to adhere to peace and end obstruction of the bridge.

It was a wonderful evening for Memphis. The jubilant orange braids, banners and livery of Memphis's most respected haunts were there; The religious community conducted itself admirably, while the police acted with restraint and humanity to their fellow men. I was anxious when I heard the news, never wanting to believe the poisonous atmosphere of other cities could infect the beautiful river city, but was very happy to see the racial harmony and peace of Memphis upheld within my expectations. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 11, 2016, 05:01:58 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 10, 2016, 11:55:41 PM
cops aren't robots, they're human. of course they're going to make mistakes, especially when they're in extremely tense situations because their lives are on the line. those tense situations make them more prone to make mistakes. are the mistakes entirely uncontrollable? no, you can make them more comfortable through better protection (and less likely to make mistakes) with technological advances, but we can't make them invincible. a cop in a dangerous neighborhood can die to a random 911 call, and they know it.

I don't think there's a technological solution.    You want to make them feel safer and more comfortable, I'd say training, not technology, is the answer.  Oh, I suppose you could put every cop inside a tank, and that would make it much less likely they'd get killed on the job, but it would probably increase their paranoia, not decrease it.  It would certainly increase the alienation of the police from the rest of the community, and frankly I don't see how they could do most of their job from inside a tank--kind of hard to take a tank to serve a warrant at a 3rd-floor apartment, or investigate a domestic disturbance there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2016, 05:23:04 AM

https://youtu.be/lBoK_73NMJs?t=547

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/6f94aa3d9d0ce4b0a10810fb97ea031e/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o3_1280.gif)
(https://67.media.tumblr.com/1d3a6a0ed7f5dc78f0aac3dd5b937e5e/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o4_1280.gif) (https://66.media.tumblr.com/adc4ea822a589acbd3bc2af0a7a4f0a9/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o5_1280.gif) (https://66.media.tumblr.com/a74dee31e7ee969cdf8d9fdc24585fd3/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o6_1280.gif) (https://66.media.tumblr.com/1cec505766404563164d03c86387d2ac/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o7_1280.gif)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 07:54:20 AM
Totally.  Where are the moderates among cops?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 08:40:34 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 10, 2016, 03:51:04 PM
Not buying it and calling BS. What's the per capita results buy population numbers and ethnic groups. IOW whats the total population numbers of white and black and the percentage of police shooting deaths for each. I think you will find blacks are killed at a higher percentage.

Of course they are they killed at a higher percentage per capita. It is obvious in this graph.

The thing that drives me nuts is that THAT is the only issue it seems. Like if the cops just shot MORE Latinos and Whites then hey the number of blacks being shot would be ok. Why aren't whites and Latinos also out there marching about this? Why are they ok with their people being gunned down?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 08:42:17 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 07:54:20 AM
Totally.  Where are the moderates among cops?

I just wish that the Cops would realize how socially destabilizing this is. How difficult it is to do their jobs. This has been going on for years and yet they just kept letting it go on until it started to really get people angry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 08:59:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 08:42:17 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 07:54:20 AM
Totally.  Where are the moderates among cops?

I just wish that the Cops would realize how socially destabilizing this is. How difficult it is to do their jobs. This has been going on for years and yet they just kept letting it go on until it started to really get people angry.
The fundamental problem is that a truly bad cop is the cop that takes part in the exercise to keep everyone's story straight.  And when it comes to these kinds of bad cops, I don't buy into the bullshit narrative that they're just a few bad apples.  Maybe it's unrealistic to expect individuals to buck a very vindictive culture that does not tolerate taking side of justice against cops, but something has to be done systematically to destroy the thin blue line.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:06:26 AM
I mean I think it's true that only a small % of cops are outright criminally bad. It's probably like most jobs, a large percentage or "moderately competent" a small percentage are genuinely great, and a small percentage are shit.

It's the pernicious union culture (which should be squashed in all public sector jobs by force of law), which I think makes police behave so poorly when one of their own fucks up. I'm a Federal employee and am not in a union, if one of my peers gets in trouble I don't give a flying fuck, that's his problem. Unions create a culture of covering for poor behavior.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 09:14:20 AM
Bullshit, this has nothing to do with unions. There are plenty of cops who are not in unions who have this same problem.

This is about a police culture, not a union culture.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 11, 2016, 09:21:37 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2016, 05:23:04 AM

https://youtu.be/lBoK_73NMJs?t=547

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/6f94aa3d9d0ce4b0a10810fb97ea031e/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o3_1280.gif)
(https://67.media.tumblr.com/1d3a6a0ed7f5dc78f0aac3dd5b937e5e/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o4_1280.gif) (https://66.media.tumblr.com/adc4ea822a589acbd3bc2af0a7a4f0a9/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o5_1280.gif) (https://66.media.tumblr.com/a74dee31e7ee969cdf8d9fdc24585fd3/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o6_1280.gif) (https://66.media.tumblr.com/1cec505766404563164d03c86387d2ac/tumblr_o9x8zb8tdc1rs7ix7o7_1280.gif)

Monstrous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 10:17:49 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 09, 2016, 08:51:50 PM
Apparently the asshole in Dallas used an SKS.  From what I saw though in that video with the columns, he had whored it all up.  Optics, banana mags, etc.

Actually I think it was a converted Saiga in 5.45x39.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 11, 2016, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 10:17:49 AM
Actually I think it was a converted Saiga in 5.45x39.

Yeah, there's a photo a...I dunno how long this current conversation has been going on, but it's a page or two back now if you want to eyeball it. 

E: 5.45 (a -74 type, I guess) seems like an odd choice.  An AR using 5.56 seems like it'd be more....convenient. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 11, 2016, 10:23:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 09:14:20 AM
Bullshit, this has nothing to do with unions. There are plenty of cops who are not in unions who have this same problem.

This is about a police culture, not a union culture.

Ehhh, I'm not sure I agree.  One of the big things the Union does is protect cops from prosecution.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:25:53 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:08:23 AM
look at the numbers. US has nation of 318 million, rounded down. there are 240 million 911 calls. there were 986 people killed by police last year. how many were caused by mistakes? etc., etc. you break the numbers down and you get an insanely small percentage of people killed by mistakes. you're never going to reduce it to 0%, not with the factors US police deal with. by no means are they perfect, but I don't see concrete evidence that there's a big problem in the US.

The problem though is that US cops shoot a much larger number that cops in other comparable Western countries, on a per-capita basis. That provides some evidence that there is a problem.

To give one example, here's an article from the start of 2016 complaining of police shootings in Canada:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/samir-shaheenhussain/police-killing-youth_b_8914048.html

This guy is outraged that there have been 150 shootings "since 2005". That's around 15 a year on average.

Canada's population was roughly 35 million in 2013, compared with 316 million in the US. So if Canada had cop shootings at the same rate as the US, it ought to have roughly 109 per year, rather than 15. That's a pretty big discrepancy.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 10:27:05 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 11, 2016, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 10:17:49 AM
Actually I think it was a converted Saiga in 5.45x39.

Yeah, there's a photo a...I dunno how long this current conversation has been going on, but it's a page or two back now if you want to eyeball it. 

E: 5.45 (a -74 type, I guess) seems like an odd choice.

Could have been .223, not sure.  But the 5.45 round is popular with AK enthusiasts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.  But the radio guy doesn't want to wait for due process or investigation - they want "hot takes" in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy.

Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 10:31:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

You are completely ignoring the context of decades of this kind of thing going on. The benefit of the doubt is wearing thin. If we felt confident that police were going to responsibly deal with every shooting then there would be no issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:33:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 10:31:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

You are completely ignoring the context of decades of this kind of thing going on. The benefit of the doubt is wearing thin. If we felt confident that police were going to responsibly deal with every shooting then there would be no issue.

This was a specific response to Timmy's gif of the radio guy wanting police to condemn each other.

If you think polcie don't investigate police shootings appropriately then set up some kind of independent oversight.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:34:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 09:14:20 AM
Bullshit, this has nothing to do with unions. There are plenty of cops who are not in unions who have this same problem.

This is about a police culture, not a union culture.

Actually it's definitely a union problem, you just don't want to attack a leftist sacred cow and enrage your Daily Kos buddies. All cops are either in formal unions, or have some level of FOP relationship (which in non-unionized departments still exists as a "Fraternal Organization.") You actually see all the problems of police forces in all other unionized work places, it's just no one writes articles about the factory worker who is a lazy fuck up but can't be touched because he's a 25 year seniority union guy.

People do sometimes write articles about bad school teachers who get protected by unions, but much less often. But you see this in all unionized work forces, the union protects bad members. It's almost their key function.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 10:38:20 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:33:37 AM
If you think polcie don't investigate police shootings appropriately then set up some kind of independent oversight.

And how would I go about this?

I have been calling for training and oversight to be reviewed for years but I seem to lack the authority to do that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 11, 2016, 10:38:45 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.  But the radio guy doesn't want to wait for due process or investigation - they want "hot takes" in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy.

Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

And yet they have no issue immediately defending them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:39:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:25:53 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:08:23 AM
look at the numbers. US has nation of 318 million, rounded down. there are 240 million 911 calls. there were 986 people killed by police last year. how many were caused by mistakes? etc., etc. you break the numbers down and you get an insanely small percentage of people killed by mistakes. you're never going to reduce it to 0%, not with the factors US police deal with. by no means are they perfect, but I don't see concrete evidence that there's a big problem in the US.

The problem though is that US cops shoot a much larger number that cops in other comparable Western countries, on a per-capita basis. That provides some evidence that there is a problem.

To give one example, here's an article from the start of 2016 complaining of police shootings in Canada:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/samir-shaheenhussain/police-killing-youth_b_8914048.html

This guy is outraged that there have been 150 shootings "since 2005". That's around 15 a year on average.

Canada's population was roughly 35 million in 2013, compared with 316 million in the US. So if Canada had cop shootings at the same rate as the US, it ought to have roughly 109 per year, rather than 15. That's a pretty big discrepancy.

I do think there is a police shooting problem, but I also wouldn't necessarily expect two different cultures to have similar shooting rates. America is a more violent place than Canada.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:39:45 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:34:52 AM

People do sometimes write articles about bad school teachers who get protected by unions, but much less often. But you see this in all unionized work forces, the union protects bad members. It's almost their key function.

My drunken, stoned lout of a brother in law is a prime beneficiary of that.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:40:56 AM
I'm not saying it's unions that makes cops pull the trigger, I'm saying the culture they foment is a big part of why other cops don't stand up and do the right thing when a bad cop is on the force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:39:20 AM


I do think there is a police shooting problem, but I also wouldn't necessarily expect two different cultures to have similar shooting rates. America is a more violent place than Canada.

To my mind such explanations have some merit, but only go so far.  Not the same? Sure. Seven times as high? That's hard to explain as simply a cultural difference.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:54:17 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:39:20 AM


I do think there is a police shooting problem, but I also wouldn't necessarily expect two different cultures to have similar shooting rates. America is a more violent place than Canada.

To my mind such explanations have some merit, but only go so far.  Not the same? Sure. Seven times as high? That's hard to explain as simply a cultural difference.

The question is always whether the US is just a more violent place, or whether given the access to firearms it is simply a more deadly place once violence breaks out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:59:58 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:54:17 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:39:20 AM


I do think there is a police shooting problem, but I also wouldn't necessarily expect two different cultures to have similar shooting rates. America is a more violent place than Canada.

To my mind such explanations have some merit, but only go so far.  Not the same? Sure. Seven times as high? That's hard to explain as simply a cultural difference.

The question is always whether the US is just a more violent place, or whether given the access to firearms it is simply a more deadly place once violence breaks out.

I certainly think that the prevalence of handguns specifically is a major factor. Cops are understandably a lot more trigger happy if they are more worried that the guy reaching for his pocket is reaching for a gun.

That doesn't explain why Blacks are twice as likely to be shot, though.

Upthread, I said I thought there were three factors (in no order) that explained the stats:

1. More handguns

2. Historic racism/racial antagonism

3. Black historic poverty
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:34:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 09:14:20 AM
Bullshit, this has nothing to do with unions. There are plenty of cops who are not in unions who have this same problem.

This is about a police culture, not a union culture.

Actually it's definitely a union problem, you just don't want to attack a leftist sacred cow and enrage your Daily Kos buddies. All cops are either in formal unions, or have some level of FOP relationship (which in non-unionized departments still exists as a "Fraternal Organization.") You actually see all the problems of police forces in all other unionized work places, it's just no one writes articles about the factory worker who is a lazy fuck up but can't be touched because he's a 25 year seniority union guy.

People do sometimes write articles about bad school teachers who get protected by unions, but much less often. But you see this in all unionized work forces, the union protects bad members. It's almost their key function.
It could be both.  The mindset of cops is to stick together, view it as "us vs. them".  But unions are definitely an organized way to accomplish that.  In NYC they don't even have a sense of shame in hiding it, the union gives every cop a number of cards to give to their friends so that "courtesy" can be extended to them (with "courtesy" obviously meaning carte blanche to commit minor violations of the law).

Cops, without strong leadership, are liable to display "professional courtesy" to other cops.  But unions are a mechanism to make those who don't display it pay dearly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 11:21:04 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.

Oncr again, foreign country backwoods courtroom boy doesnt know what the fuck he's talking about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 11:37:14 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:40:56 AM
I'm not saying it's unions that makes cops pull the trigger, I'm saying the culture they foment is a big part of why other cops don't stand up and do the right thing when a bad cop is on the force.

Plenty of non-unionized police departments do the same thing. And quite frankly, it isn't unions that fail to charge and prosecute officers when they break the law--state's attorneys offices and local prosecutors are the ones that drop that ball, either by not charging or tossing softballs to grand juries.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 11:43:56 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:59:58 AMI certainly think that the prevalence of handguns specifically is a major factor. Cops are understandably a lot more trigger happy if they are more worried that the guy reaching for his pocket is reaching for a gun.

That doesn't explain why Blacks are twice as likely to be shot, though.

Upthread, I said I thought there were three factors (in no order) that explained the stats:

1. More handguns

2. Historic racism/racial antagonism

3. Black historic poverty

I think there's probably (obviously) different reasons about why more people are shot by police in America vs why more blacks (versus their share of population) are shot.

I think more guns in America than essentially anywhere else is probably the #1 reason we have so many police shootings in general. Fuck, regular British patrol cops don't even carry.

I think the reason more blacks are shot is pretty simple down to two reasons:

1) Police have a racist predisposition to viewing blacks as more dangerous and treat them as so, even when it isn't justified. [A fix for this would be to get police to respond more to the situation, not the skin color of the person.]

2) Police have vastly more interactions per capita with blacks than whites. The more interactions, the more "chances" of a bad outcome like an unjustified police shooting (or maybe even a legally justified, but possibly preventable, police shooting.) More roll of the dice, so to speak.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 11:37:14 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:40:56 AM
I'm not saying it's unions that makes cops pull the trigger, I'm saying the culture they foment is a big part of why other cops don't stand up and do the right thing when a bad cop is on the force.

Plenty of non-unionized police departments do the same thing. And quite frankly, it isn't unions that fail to charge and prosecute officers when they break the law--state's attorneys offices and local prosecutors are the ones that drop that ball, either by not charging or tossing softballs to grand juries.

Yeah, I'd think elected prosecutors factor in to a degree as well. In a lot of localities only a few hundred people even vote on prosecutor, especially if he is elected in an off year election. Even in big cities if it's an off year local election (or even worse, one scheduled on some odd ball month not in November when more important elections are held), the turn out is very very low, like 15-20%. In that context having the unwavering support of the police community can literally be make or break in getting elected.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadImmortalMan on July 11, 2016, 11:52:03 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 11:07:48 AM"us vs. them".

I think that mentality goes way beyond unions, and in fact the latter stuff you mentioned is probably just a side effect of the overall way of looking at the public. Old time cops used to think of themselves as protectors of the public, and would go into their work knowing that they might be called upon to put themselves in danger in order to protect non-cops. Even guilty ones. It was that sense of sacrifice that made them heroes to the public. Now, the mentality is the cop will survive at all costs, "better judged by twelve than carried by six" and all that.

With that change in mentality, the public is accordingly losing the respect they held for the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 12:03:00 PM
To some degree I think  focusing too much just on unjustified shootings is a problem, because while they are the most tragic incident, they are more or less extremely rare. There are millions of police-citizen interactions ever year, and only a small portion of a percent are unjustified shootings.

I think the shootings are more the tip of the ice berg. Cops routinely be at blacks, and arrest them for no reason. Using the process of being arrested as a punishment. For people who cannot make bail it can result in days or weeks in lock up before it gets sorted out--that's assuming it's something where the prosecutor just drops the charges and kicks the guy--tacitly admitting, many times, that the guy was just locked up for "pissing off a cop", something not illegal but that police can usually turn into a big hassle for you. Sometimes the crime is one where if the officer is making the claim, then that's enough to get the guy to plead guilty anyway--even if he did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 12:09:46 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 11:43:56 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 10:59:58 AMI certainly think that the prevalence of handguns specifically is a major factor. Cops are understandably a lot more trigger happy if they are more worried that the guy reaching for his pocket is reaching for a gun.

That doesn't explain why Blacks are twice as likely to be shot, though.

Upthread, I said I thought there were three factors (in no order) that explained the stats:

1. More handguns

2. Historic racism/racial antagonism

3. Black historic poverty

I think there's probably (obviously) different reasons about why more people are shot by police in America vs why more blacks (versus their share of population) are shot.

I think more guns in America than essentially anywhere else is probably the #1 reason we have so many police shootings in general. Fuck, regular British patrol cops don't even carry.

I think the reason more blacks are shot is pretty simple down to two reasons:

1) Police have a racist predisposition to viewing blacks as more dangerous and treat them as so, even when it isn't justified. [A fix for this would be to get police to respond more to the situation, not the skin color of the person.]

2) Police have vastly more interactions per capita with blacks than whites. The more interactions, the more "chances" of a bad outcome like an unjustified police shooting (or maybe even a legally justified, but possibly preventable, police shooting.) More roll of the dice, so to speak.

I think I'm saying more or less the same thing, only in less detail.

1. More people overall are shot because of handguns and the fear or handguns.

2. Historic racism explains both police animosity towards Blacks, and Black animosity toward police - those sentiments feed on each other (Blacks get treated worse on average, and so are more likely to respond badly to police interference).

3. Historic Black poverty leads to more police interactions. People who are not only more likely to be poor, but more likely to be 'historically' poor - in short, an underclass - are more likely to be involved in criminality, on average.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.  But the radio guy doesn't want to wait for due process or investigation - they want "hot takes" in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy.

Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

The problem with this theory is that the facts do not prove them out.

There are hundreds of police shootings a year, and from the analysis of how many are prosecuted, it would appear that somewhere between none and zero percent are decided to be illegal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 12:19:49 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 10:34:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 09:14:20 AM
Bullshit, this has nothing to do with unions. There are plenty of cops who are not in unions who have this same problem.

This is about a police culture, not a union culture.

Actually it's definitely a union problem, you just don't want to attack a leftist sacred cow and enrage your Daily Kos buddies. All cops are either in formal unions, or have some level of FOP relationship (which in non-unionized departments still exists as a "Fraternal Organization.") You actually see all the problems of police forces in all other unionized work places, it's just no one writes articles about the factory worker who is a lazy fuck up but can't be touched because he's a 25 year seniority union guy.

People do sometimes write articles about bad school teachers who get protected by unions, but much less often. But you see this in all unionized work forces, the union protects bad members. It's almost their key function.

LOL, yes I am well known as the Languish Champion of Public Sector Unions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 12:19:55 PM
I think blacks just get hassled a lot more than whites, even ones who are doing nothing to justify it.

Years ago I committed a classic bureaucratic fuck up. My driver's license had expired, and I missed the 30 day window to renew it. At the same time, my vehicle registration had expired (in the U.S. you typically have to "register" your car with the State and get it renewed every 1-3 years, and pay a set of revenue-generating fees and sometimes personal property taxes depending on state), and while I was insured I had forgotten to put my new car insurance card in my glove box.

I get pulled over for the dead tags. Cop comes up and talks to me, and I basically have none of my paperwork in order. No valid insurance card, expired driver's license, expired registration. I tell him that I do have insurance, I just don't have the new card. He basically just tells me to be sure to get my registration and driver's license renewed (verbal warning), and took me at my word on the car insurance.

As a strict matter of law, if he couldn't verify I had insurance he was supposed to take possession of the car and impound it. I've heard horror stories of people in the same situation where the cop agrees to wait while they run and print off an insurance card at the library or something, but sometimes they get their cars impounded. Now a days they have digital cards you can bring up on your phone that most states accept as valid, but this was back before that was a thing.

I have a strong suspicion if I wasn't driving a nice car, wasn't a professionally dressed middle aged white dude, but was a black guy in shabby clothing driving a beater, that scenario would've turned out 100% different. It wouldn't have been "serious", but I'd be looking at lots of fines and fees that I wouldn't have had the money for it if I was poor. Tickets for all the expired shit, fees to get my car out of impound, fees to the towing company for towing it etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.  But the radio guy doesn't want to wait for due process or investigation - they want "hot takes" in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy.

Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

The problem with this theory is that the facts do not prove them out.

There are hundreds of police shootings a year, and from the analysis of how many are prosecuted, it would appear that somewhere between none and zero percent are decided to be illegal.

Then that's a legal system issue, not a "police won't denounce police violence" issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 12:24:43 PM
These days you can also pull up your insurance card on your cell phone. I had to do that when I went to go pay a ticket and I left my insurance card in my car.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.  But the radio guy doesn't want to wait for due process or investigation - they want "hot takes" in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy.

Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

The problem with this theory is that the facts do not prove them out.

There are hundreds of police shootings a year, and from the analysis of how many are prosecuted, it would appear that somewhere between none and zero percent are decided to be illegal.

Then that's a legal system issue, not a "police won't denounce police violence" issue.

Hard to prosecute without evidence, and when it is a few cops words against the dead guys, it is not surprising that there are literally ZERO (or close enough to make no difference) successful prosecutions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 12:26:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 12:23:40 PM
Then that's a legal system issue, not a "police won't denounce police violence" issue.

Either one would go a long way to preserving public order and diffusing the crisis. Even if you think the police shouldn't have to do so you have to ask yourself the question: is it better for the police to have to compromise a bit  or to be hated throughout the country? What is more dangerous for the carrying out of their duties?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 12:23:40 PM
Then that's a legal system issue, not a "police won't denounce police violence" issue.
One doesn't preclude the other.  The DA will intentionally sabotage the case in order to get probably their only non-indictment of the career from the grand jury precisely because they know that even "moderate" cops will not be understanding.  And even if DAs are completely honest and not cowardly, they have to deal with these "moderate" cops perjuring themselves to protect their colleagues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on July 11, 2016, 12:39:38 PM
I like to link this story every so often to really get my blood up:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-police-detective-manslaughter-trial-0421-met-20150420-story.html

QuoteIn a stunning, abrupt end to the first trial in years of a Chicago police officer for a fatal off-duty shooting, a Cook County judge acquitted the veteran cop Monday on a legal fine point, drawing outrage from the black victim's family and leaders in the African-American community.

Judge Dennis Porter ruled that prosecutors failed to prove that Dante Servin acted recklessly, saying that Illinois courts have consistently held that anytime an individual points a gun at an intended victim and shoots, it is an intentional act, not a reckless one. He all but said prosecutors should have charged Servin with murder, not involuntary manslaughter.

Servin cannot be retried on a murder charge because of double-jeopardy protections, according to his attorney, Darren O'Brien.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 12:47:47 PM
Does double jeopardy apply if DA was deliberately incompetent?  There wasn't really any jeopardy there the first time, was there?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 12:57:24 PM
I think just like a citizen-elected school board oversees school districts we should have similar boards overseeing police departments, that have final say over disciplinary issues and etc. We also should end elections for prosecutors and judges--it's a true blight on our system of law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:59:07 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 12:23:40 PM
Then that's a legal system issue, not a "police won't denounce police violence" issue.
One doesn't preclude the other.  The DA will intentionally sabotage the case in order to get probably their only non-indictment of the career from the grand jury precisely because they know that even "moderate" cops will not be understanding.  And even if DAs are completely honest and not cowardly, they have to deal with these "moderate" cops perjuring themselves to protect their colleagues.

:lol:

but yeah, prosecutors would prosecute more cops if the laws were changed. a prosecutor isn't going to press charges if there's insufficient evidence.

@dps: I considered training, but more in the military context. I just don't know enough about available training procedures that could make a difference without turning cops into soldiers.

@malthus: OVB handled the response. I don't think there's much more for me to add. if we want proportional black deaths, the problems facing the black communities need to be fixed. that's a whole other discussion that doesn't really involve police departments, IMO.

@habbaku: prosecution screwed up. that's all there is to that story.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 12:47:47 PM
Does double jeopardy apply if DA was deliberately incompetent?  There wasn't really any jeopardy there the first time, was there?

you might be onto something there with your theory that russians are prone to conspiracy theories.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 01:01:18 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 12:57:24 PM
I think just like a citizen-elected school board oversees school districts we should have similar boards overseeing police departments, that have final say over disciplinary issues and etc. We also should end elections for prosecutors and judges--it's a true blight on our system of law.

Elected judges and prosecutors is a monstrosity.  I've just given up arguing about it.

But then funny you then call for elected police boards.  Sounds like that'd be just as subject to regulatory capture as elected judges and prosecutors.  In any event we have a non-elected Police Commission, and it's fairly unexciting in terms of its oversite of the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:59:07 PM
@habbaku: prosecution screwed up. that's all there is to that story.

Well besides the fact that law and order are suffering a nationwide crisis that amplifies every month with potentially destabilizing effects for the entire country. But besides that nothing at all more to the story. Nope. Nothing to worry about. These things happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:05:19 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:59:07 PM

@dps: I considered training, but more in the military context. I just don't know enough about available training procedures that could make a difference without turning cops into soldiers.

I don't see why giving people police training makes them soldiers. Giving electricians electrician training doesn't turn them into plumbers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 01:06:01 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:59:07 PM

@malthus: OVB handled the response. I don't think there's much more for me to add. if we want proportional black deaths, the problems facing the black communities need to be fixed. that's a whole other discussion that doesn't really involve police departments, IMO.

So you agree with this OvB statement?

Quote1) Police have a racist predisposition to viewing blacks as more dangerous and treat them as so, even when it isn't justified. [A fix for this would be to get police to respond more to the situation, not the skin color of the person.]

That strikes me as a discussion that involves police departments ...  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 11, 2016, 01:06:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:05:19 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 12:59:07 PM

@dps: I considered training, but more in the military context. I just don't know enough about available training procedures that could make a difference without turning cops into soldiers.

I don't see why giving people police training makes them soldiers. Giving electricians electrician training doesn't turn them into plumbers.

That's not what he said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 11, 2016, 01:06:20 PM
That's not what he said.

I mean you want training in de-escalation and crisis management. I don't see why soldiers would get that kind of training unless they are, you know, doing police work.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:10:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:03:09 PMWell besides the fact that law and order are suffering a nationwide crisis that amplifies every month with potentially destabilizing effects for the entire country. But besides that nothing at all more to the story. Nope. Nothing to worry about. These things happen.

what crisis? prosecution screws up every now and then. it's happened since the beginning of our legal system, and it will continue to happen. prior to filing criminal charges, the prosecution probably felt the available evidence made a better case for involuntary manslaughter. later, a good defense attorney destroys that argument. these things happen. yet, because a cop got off ... it evidences a current law and order "nationwide crisis"?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on July 11, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 11, 2016, 01:06:20 PM
That's not what he said.

I mean you want training in de-escalation and crisis management. I don't see why soldiers would get that kind of training unless they are, you know, doing police work.

They need better engagement rules.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 01:12:56 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:10:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 01:03:09 PMWell besides the fact that law and order are suffering a nationwide crisis that amplifies every month with potentially destabilizing effects for the entire country. But besides that nothing at all more to the story. Nope. Nothing to worry about. These things happen.

what crisis? prosecution screws up every now and then. it's happened since the beginning of our legal system, and it will continue to happen. prior to filing criminal charges, the prosecution probably felt the available evidence made a better case for involuntary manslaughter. later, a good defense attorney destroys that argument. these things happen. yet, because a cop got off ... it evidences a current law and order "nationwide crisis"?

It isn't some singular case where a cop got off. Cops *always* get off - they are almost never, EVER prosecuted for killing people.

The only thing that is an outlier about this case is that it actually WAS prosecuted. And even at that, apparently it was TOO CLEAR that they committed murder to convict.

If you cannot see how this story resonates across the entire larger issue, you are just being willfully obtuse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 11, 2016, 01:14:55 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 12:19:55 PM
I think blacks just get hassled a lot more than whites, even ones who are doing nothing to justify it.

Years ago I committed a classic bureaucratic fuck up. My driver's license had expired, and I missed the 30 day window to renew it. At the same time, my vehicle registration had expired (in the U.S. you typically have to "register" your car with the State and get it renewed every 1-3 years, and pay a set of revenue-generating fees and sometimes personal property taxes depending on state), and while I was insured I had forgotten to put my new car insurance card in my glove box.

I get pulled over for the dead tags. Cop comes up and talks to me, and I basically have none of my paperwork in order. No valid insurance card, expired driver's license, expired registration. I tell him that I do have insurance, I just don't have the new card. He basically just tells me to be sure to get my registration and driver's license renewed (verbal warning), and took me at my word on the car insurance.

As a strict matter of law, if he couldn't verify I had insurance he was supposed to take possession of the car and impound it. I've heard horror stories of people in the same situation where the cop agrees to wait while they run and print off an insurance card at the library or something, but sometimes they get their cars impounded. Now a days they have digital cards you can bring up on your phone that most states accept as valid, but this was back before that was a thing.

I have a strong suspicion if I wasn't driving a nice car, wasn't a professionally dressed middle aged white dude, but was a black guy in shabby clothing driving a beater, that scenario would've turned out 100% different. It wouldn't have been "serious", but I'd be looking at lots of fines and fees that I wouldn't have had the money for it if I was poor. Tickets for all the expired shit, fees to get my car out of impound, fees to the towing company for towing it etc.

Were you union at the time?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:21:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2016, 01:06:01 PMSo you agree with this OvB statement?

Quote1) Police have a racist predisposition to viewing blacks as more dangerous and treat them as so, even when it isn't justified. [A fix for this would be to get police to respond more to the situation, not the skin color of the person.]

That strikes me as a discussion that involves police departments ...  :hmm:

I think there's a difference between systematic (or institutional) racism and natural, individual discrimination. I also suspect the average cop treats rich black people differently than poor black people.

as an institution, I haven't seen enough evidence that police departments are actually racist--they hate black people and intend to keep them down. individual cops discriminate to a degree. I'm sure some discriminate more than others, just like you'd see cops discriminating in any other non-black community. every profession discriminates because people discriminate in general. I'm sure there are isolated cases of actual, extreme "fuck all black people" racism, but I don't think this is the norm.

I'm not really sure how you would "fix" this, so that's why I think a better fix for the overall issue is to focus on it from other angles that actually have solutions available.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:35:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 01:12:56 PMIt isn't some singular case where a cop got off. Cops *always* get off - they are almost never, EVER prosecuted for killing people.

The only thing that is an outlier about this case is that it actually WAS prosecuted. And even at that, apparently it was TOO CLEAR that they committed murder to convict.

If you cannot see how this story resonates across the entire larger issue, you are just being willfully obtuse.

given the uphill battle it takes to convict a cop and assuming most unjustified killings are caused by mistakes, the number of prosecuted cops -- by itself -- doesn't evidence to me a problem in the system. it was dark out, cop saw the victim quickly reach for something, so he shot. ah man, he killed someone. well, understandable--he was in X neighborhood, he could have been killed. yeah, it wasn't his fault. does some "bias" play into this decision? I'm sure to some degree on a natural human level, but not to the degree that there are conspiracies taking place all across the nation to ensure evil cops aren't prosecuted--like what dguller seemed to be saying.

(edit) not to mention a lot of these deaths are probably 1v1 scenarios where the only eyewitness is the cop. sure, police departments investigate the death to make sure it lines up with the officer's report, but they weren't in the room and can't know with certainty what happened. they can guess, but can that guess be proved beyond reasonable doubt? or, maybe there are eyewitnesses, but they're druggies or "scum" whose credibility would be torn apart on cross examination.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 11, 2016, 01:47:33 PM
I just assume that all America is like Mississippi Burning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
Cop Shoots BLM Member

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 01:59:38 PM
Here we go
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 02:01:29 PM
Don't worry, derspiess. :console:  If you try really hard, maybe you'll finally get your chance. :yeah:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 02:04:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
Cop Shoots BLM Member

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html

The glee with which you post something like this comes right through. Well done.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:21:23 PM
I also suspect the average cop treats rich black people differently than poor black people.

You've got a point--"poor blacks" are not nearly asked if their car belongs to them as often as "rich blacks" during traffic stops.  Driving a Benz?  Gotta be a drug dealer or stolen.

You people are hilarious.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 02:04:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
Cop Shoots BLM Member

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html

The glee with which you post something like this comes right through. Well done.
I don't know about that, there is some barely plausible deniability there.  Not really all that plausible at all, but just enough to allow him to go "who, me gleefull, yeah, right :rolleyes:".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 11, 2016, 02:20:53 PM


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html)

Quote

At least one use-of-force expert said the chief's statement that the shooting sequence lasted more than 2 minutes was odd.

"That would be highly unusual. It's usually no more than five to 20 seconds between the first and last shot," said Charles "Sid" Heal, a former Los Angeles County sheriff's commander.

In cases where lethal force was used, "each and every shot must be justified as protecting the public or officers," Heal said.

Deadly force could be deemed justified if the officers feared for their lives because Noble made repeated furtive movements, refused to show his hands and refused to follow commands, Heal said.

Once Noble was on the ground after the first shots, officers would have had to reassess the threat, Heal said.

The officers will need to explain the last two shots seen in the video, the expert said.

"Why didn't officers move in after the third shot and restrain him? Fourteen seconds is a long time to wait," Heal said. "Sometimes we get criticized for handcuffing dead people. But this is why we move in and restrain people."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 02:22:41 PM
Quotehttp://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html

And reason # 4 billion why you never talk politics or say anything controversial on Facebook, twitter, or any other non-anonymous place on the internet. You never know what mentally ill person is going to snap and come after you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 11, 2016, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:21:23 PM
I also suspect the average cop treats rich black people differently than poor black people.

I doubt it. I'd also bet that rich black people get pulled over more often than rich white people. Must have stolen that car.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 11, 2016, 02:28:10 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 11, 2016, 01:21:23 PM
I also suspect the average cop treats rich black people differently than poor black people.

You've got a point--"poor blacks" are not nearly asked if their car belongs to them as often as "rich blacks" during traffic stops.  Driving a Benz?  Gotta be a drug dealer or stolen.

You people are hilarious.

:hug:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 11, 2016, 02:31:15 PM
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/07/11/al-sharpton-nra-second-amendment-only-white-people

QuoteAl Sharpton: NRA Believes 2nd Amendment Is Only for White People

During his weekly rally in Harlem on Saturday, Al Sharpton called out the NRA for remaining silent about the police shooting deaths of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, two black men who he said were both legally carrying guns when they were killed.

"Both of them were killed by police based on, 'They had [a] gun,'" Sharpton said. "Now, I missed the NRA coming out and defending the gun rights they legally had. Where is the NRA now? Where is [NRA president] Wayne LaPierre now? Do you have a Second Amendment right, or did you not get down, Mr. Pierre, to the 14th, 15th and 16th Amendments? Maybe you mean the Second Amendment [is] for whites only."

On "Fox and Friends" this morning, David Webb said that the NRA is concerned about the Second Amendment rights of all Americans, pointing out that he's a card-carrying member of the organization and an African-American.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 02:33:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 02:04:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
Cop Shoots BLM Member

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html

The glee with which you post something like this comes right through. Well done.
I don't know about that, there is some barely plausible deniability there.  Not really all that plausible at all, but just enough to allow him to go "who, me gleefull, yeah, right :rolleyes:".

Of course he will.

The article is not even interesting though except with that little bit of glee at the "justness" of it all...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 02:52:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2016, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 02:04:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
Cop Shoots BLM Member

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html

The glee with which you post something like this comes right through. Well done.
I don't know about that, there is some barely plausible deniability there.  Not really all that plausible at all, but just enough to allow him to go "who, me gleefull, yeah, right :rolleyes:".

You guys are weird.  How was that supposed to make me happy?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 11, 2016, 02:53:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 02:31:15 PM
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/07/11/al-sharpton-nra-second-amendment-only-white-people

QuoteAl Sharpton: NRA Believes 2nd Amendment Is Only for White People

During his weekly rally in Harlem on Saturday, Al Sharpton called out the NRA for remaining silent about the police shooting deaths of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, two black men who he said were both legally carrying guns when they were killed.

"Both of them were killed by police based on, 'They had [a] gun,'" Sharpton said. "Now, I missed the NRA coming out and defending the gun rights they legally had. Where is the NRA now? Where is [NRA president] Wayne LaPierre now? Do you have a Second Amendment right, or did you not get down, Mr. Pierre, to the 14th, 15th and 16th Amendments? Maybe you mean the Second Amendment [is] for whites only."

On "Fox and Friends" this morning, David Webb said that the NRA is concerned about the Second Amendment rights of all Americans, pointing out that he's a card-carrying member of the organization and an African-American.

Mr. Colion Noir disagrees.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 04:50:33 PM
Here's an interesting study - conclusions that while blacks are more likely to be touched, or handcuffed, than whites are during interactions with police, there is no difference in the rates at which they are shot.

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/american-society/harvard-study-debunks-police-shootings-myth/

http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 05:05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/us/michigan-courthouse-shooting/index.html

Quote
Michigan shooting: 2 bailiffs, suspect killed at courthouse, official says


(CNN) — Two bailiffs and a suspect are dead after a courthouse shooting in St. Joseph, Michigan, Berrien County sheriff's Lt. Paul Bailey said.

Bailey said the shooting happened on the third floor of the courthouse. Members of the public "went for shelter once the shooting occurred and brave officers were able to come to the rescue and bring the shooter down," Bailey said at a news conference on Monday afternoon.

A deputy and a civilian also were shot and sustained non-life threatening injuries, Bailey said. They are being treated at Lakeland Health in St. Joseph and are in stable condition



"The courthouse is secured and the scene is rendered safe. No further victims are involved," Bailey said.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2016, 05:08:25 PM
This year could go down in history.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2016, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 11, 2016, 12:39:38 PM


Servin cannot be retried on a murder charge because of double-jeopardy protections, according to his attorney, Darren O'Brien.
[/quote]

If he wasn't charged with murder than how would it be double jeopardy?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 05:39:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2016, 05:08:25 PM
This year could go down in history.

For what?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 11, 2016, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 05:39:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2016, 05:08:25 PM
This year could go down in history.

For what?

The last relatively sane one before Trumpcalypse next year.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 05:54:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 05:05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/us/michigan-courthouse-shooting/index.html

Well that is kind of unrelated. I mean you have to be pretty incompetent to let a suspect grab your gun so I guess that whole training part could be a tie in.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 11, 2016, 06:31:00 PM
Quote from: citizen k on July 11, 2016, 02:20:53 PM


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html)

Quote

At least one use-of-force expert said the chief's statement that the shooting sequence lasted more than 2 minutes was odd.

"That would be highly unusual. It's usually no more than five to 20 seconds between the first and last shot," said Charles "Sid" Heal, a former Los Angeles County sheriff's commander.

In cases where lethal force was used, "each and every shot must be justified as protecting the public or officers," Heal said.

Deadly force could be deemed justified if the officers feared for their lives because Noble made repeated furtive movements, refused to show his hands and refused to follow commands, Heal said.

Once Noble was on the ground after the first shots, officers would have had to reassess the threat, Heal said.

The officers will need to explain the last two shots seen in the video, the expert said.

"Why didn't officers move in after the third shot and restrain him? Fourteen seconds is a long time to wait," Heal said. "Sometimes we get criticized for handcuffing dead people. But this is why we move in and restrain people."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 06:41:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 05:54:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 05:05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/us/michigan-courthouse-shooting/index.html

Well that is kind of unrelated. I mean you have to be pretty incompetent to let a suspect grab your gun so I guess that whole training part could be a tie in.

I wonder what retention holster they carry. Single, double, triple, or quad level.

For those who don't know what holster retention levels are. Go to 2:44 on vid.

https://www.safariland.com/holsters-and-gear-resources/holster-retention-levels.html

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: citizen k on July 11, 2016, 06:31:00 PM
Quote from: citizen k on July 11, 2016, 02:20:53 PM


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html)

Quote

At least one use-of-force expert said the chief's statement that the shooting sequence lasted more than 2 minutes was odd.

"That would be highly unusual. It's usually no more than five to 20 seconds between the first and last shot," said Charles "Sid" Heal, a former Los Angeles County sheriff's commander.

In cases where lethal force was used, "each and every shot must be justified as protecting the public or officers," Heal said.

Deadly force could be deemed justified if the officers feared for their lives because Noble made repeated furtive movements, refused to show his hands and refused to follow commands, Heal said.

Once Noble was on the ground after the first shots, officers would have had to reassess the threat, Heal said.

The officers will need to explain the last two shots seen in the video, the expert said.

"Why didn't officers move in after the third shot and restrain him? Fourteen seconds is a long time to wait," Heal said. "Sometimes we get criticized for handcuffing dead people. But this is why we move in and restrain people."

Damn, I think the brothers down guys.

Can't even articulate reflex fire on that one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 07:58:49 PM
Face down, on the ground, and with multiple officers present...and yet nobody goes to handcuff the suspect while covered. But no, let's shoot him.  Unreal.

That's not how you were taught, gentlemen.  Time to lose your jobs and go to prison.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 08:13:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 06:41:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 05:54:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 05:05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/us/michigan-courthouse-shooting/index.html

Well that is kind of unrelated. I mean you have to be pretty incompetent to let a suspect grab your gun so I guess that whole training part could be a tie in.

I wonder what retention holster they carry. Single, double, triple, or quad level.

Shouldn't fucking matter what level retention holster they carry;  it should've been empty.  Why the fuck is armed personnel anywhere near the holding cells?  Where are your gun boxes?  Are you fucking kidding me?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 08:26:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 08:13:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 06:41:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 05:54:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 05:05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/us/michigan-courthouse-shooting/index.html

Well that is kind of unrelated. I mean you have to be pretty incompetent to let a suspect grab your gun so I guess that whole training part could be a tie in.

I wonder what retention holster they carry. Single, double, triple, or quad level.

Shouldn't fucking matter what level retention holster they carry;  it should've been empty.  Why the fuck is armed personnel anywhere near the holding cells?  Where are your gun boxes?  Are you fucking kidding me?

Might not have been their procedure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 06:41:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2016, 05:54:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 05:05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/us/michigan-courthouse-shooting/index.html

Well that is kind of unrelated. I mean you have to be pretty incompetent to let a suspect grab your gun so I guess that whole training part could be a tie in.

I wonder what retention holster they carry. Single, double, triple, or quad level.

For those who don't know what holster retention levels are. Go to 2:44 on vid.

https://www.safariland.com/holsters-and-gear-resources/holster-retention-levels.html



That is pretty cool.

I would be worried that in the heat of the moment I would fumble the mechanism and not be able to draw easily though...practice, I suppose, can fix that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:02:07 PM
Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html) to a New York Times article about the study BB posted upthread--I gotta say, while I dismissed it at first given the source (Commentary.com), it actually is pretty interesting and suggests the data we've been presented may not be all that useful or complete based on what this guy has found in a subsection of American cities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:06:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 11, 2016, 08:57:11 PMThat is pretty cool.

I would be worried that in the heat of the moment I would fumble the mechanism and not be able to draw easily though...practice, I suppose, can fix that.

This is actually why I don't carry concealed. I'll put my marksmanship with a rifle up against any ordinary, non-competitive shooter, but a pistol is a totally different thing. I'm more proficient with a pistol than Joe Nobody who has never fired one, but that isn't saying a lot. All these Rambo wannabes carrying pistols they shoot a few times at the range are pretty deluded in thinking they have a great hope of using it accurately, effectively, and without serious risk of collateral damage. How much have they practiced unholstering/drawing? That isn't actually something you practice 2-3 times and are "golden" at. You need to practice that a lot. I also question the holster many of them typically buy. Did they buy one they know is going to work well with their chosen firearm? Some shitty holsters, used with the wrong gun, can actually legitimately risk depressing the trigger when you draw.

I don't necessarily mind some people carrying concealed, but to do so safely you need a lot of range time with your pistol. You need a lot of practice drawing. You also probably need at least some level of tactical training, you need to learn some of the techniques for keeping yourself calm when you're in a life or death situation. Most cops don't get enough training at this, to be honest, let alone people who spend $400 on a gun, $75 on a CCW, and take the 8 hours or so of training that is usually required to get a CCW. Unless you're in some of the states that are now promoted "permitless concealed carry."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:08:57 PM
All of this also, to a degree, is something you need to practice so much it's second nature/muscle memory. And like most things of that nature--to remain good at you need to train regularly not once a year regularly. Probably more like once a month at a minimum. It's not just a matter of "get all the training you need before you start", you need to be committed to continually training for as long as you choose to carry a gun in public.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:06:36 PM
I don't necessarily mind some people carrying concealed, but to do so safely you need a lot of range time with your pistol. You need a lot of practice drawing. You also probably need at least some level of tactical training, you need to learn some of the techniques for keeping yourself calm when you're in a life or death situation. Most cops don't get enough training at this, to be honest, let alone people who spend $400 on a gun, $75 on a CCW, and take the 8 hours or so of training that is usually required to get a CCW. Unless you're in some of the states that are now promoted "permitless concealed carry."

I never envisioned being in the same shooting situation as a private citizen, even back as a bail bondsman--hitting houses, corner jump-outs and transporting cash--as opposed to being a uniformed officer wearing a full-size service weapon like the Glock. 

That's why I prefer my .357: if anything happens, chances are it will all happen within a just a few feet accompanied by one hell of a big boom, a big hole, and a shitload of broken glass and ringing ears.  Not the same as, say, responding to an armed robbery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 09:45:26 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:08:57 PM
All of this also, to a degree, is something you need to practice so much it's second nature/muscle memory. And like most things of that nature--to remain good at you need to train regularly not once a year regularly. Probably more like once a month at a minimum. It's not just a matter of "get all the training you need before you start", you need to be committed to continually training for as long as you choose to carry a gun in public.

One thing I thought the BPD always did right;  when they went to the Glock in the early 1990's, they allowed any officer with more than 18 years' service to continue carrying their S&W Model 19s until retirement.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 09:57:20 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 09:45:26 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2016, 09:08:57 PM
All of this also, to a degree, is something you need to practice so much it's second nature/muscle memory. And like most things of that nature--to remain good at you need to train regularly not once a year regularly. Probably more like once a month at a minimum. It's not just a matter of "get all the training you need before you start", you need to be committed to continually training for as long as you choose to carry a gun in public.

One thing I thought the BPD always did right;  when they went to the Glock in the early 1990's, they allowed any officer with more than 18 years' service to continue carrying their S&W Model 19s until retirement.

Old Fuddy Duddy
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 11, 2016, 10:04:13 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 11, 2016, 09:57:20 PM
Old Fuddy Duddy

Glocks kill bathroom sinks dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 11, 2016, 10:32:07 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2016, 05:40:34 AM
Fair.

No, it actually isn't.

Cops have no problem saying another cop screwed up - once all the evidence is in.  But the radio guy doesn't want to wait for due process or investigation - they want "hot takes" in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy.

Some of these police shootings that garnered police attention have generally shown police actions to be justified (see Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson).  Some of these police shootings appear to show police actions to be unjustifiable (see Philando Castille a few days ago).  But it's wrong to immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known.

This is utterly untrue.  What the radio guys wants is for cops to be the leaders in the Lives Matter movement, not to issue "hot takes" like they were prosecutors or journalists. It's wrong to argue that a speaker is saying that he wants cops to "immediately criticize each and every police shooting without waiting for all the facts to be known" when that's just something you made up for a post.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2016, 02:32:09 AM
Good on Newt :)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/07/08/newt_gingrich_and_other_conservatives_seem_to_be_coming_to_terms_with_racism.html

Quote
Are Conservatives Coming to Terms With Racism in American Policing?

It's almost too banal to call it a prediction: The assassination of five law enforcement officers in Dallas on Thursday night is sure to further polarize the national debate over race and policing, and provide new fodder for those who reflexively oppose any suggestion that American police officers unfairly target black people.

Leon Neyfakh is a Slate staff writer.

Evidence of this has already come in, with former Rep. Joe Walsh tweeting threats at "Black Lives Matter punks" and the New York Post splashing the words "CIVIL WAR" on its front page. And yet, two pieces of writing published on conservative news sites on Friday morning, as well as an extraordinary Facebook Live chat with former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, suggest that the combination of Thursday night's carnage and the police killings of two black men earlier in the week might be changing some minds on the right.

The comments made by Gingrich are arguably the most newsworthy:

It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years to get a sense of this. If you are a normal, white American, the truth is you don't understand being black in America and you instinctively under-estimate the level of discrimination and the level of additional risk.

The Black Lives Matter movement, Gingrich said, should be seen as a "corrective" that "initially people reject because it's not in their world."


The former House speaker's remarks lit up social media, with many expressing disbelief that Newt Gingrich—the Personal Responsibility Act guy? The one angling for the VP slot on Donald Trump's ticket?—would express such sentiments.

But Gingrich wasn't the only conservative who was moved on Friday to break the rules of conservative discourse. Over at the Daily Caller, writer Matt K. Lewis wrote a post that opened with an unequivocal assertion: "[P]olice brutality toward African-Americans is a pervasive problem that has been going on for generations." In the post, headlined "A confession," Lewis grappled with the fact that, as a white person, he was raised to "reflexively believe the police" and "give them the benefit of the doubt," while many black Americans have reasonably come to the conclusion that they and their children are "living under an occupying army."

Lewis' post ended with an expression of hope that videos of police encounters like the two that surfaced this week would cause "naive, white Americans" to start seeing the issue of police violence against blacks with less cloudy eyes.

One such white American has turned out to be Leon H. Wolf, managing editor of the website RedState. Friday morning, Wolf published what might be the most striking of all the conservative commentary we've seen on Dallas. In a post titled "The Uncomfortable Reason Why It Came to This In Dallas Yesterday," Wolf argued that it was time to acknowledge not only the "lingering mistrust between police and minority communities," but the fact that this mistrust is based on something real: namely, that "police often interact with minority communities in different ways than they do with the white community."

"Look, I don't know," Wolf writes. "I don't want to rush to judgment on either the Baton Rouge shooting or the Falcon Heights shooting, but based upon what we have seen, they look bad. Very bad."

Wolf goes on to violate some basic orthodoxies of conservative commentary on law enforcement, criticizing commenters on his own website "who look for even the smallest hook on which to hang an excuse for the cops" whenever he posts a story about police violence, and questioning their "blind, uncritical belief that the police never (or only in freak circumstances) do anything wrong."

It is surprising and intriguing to see such rhetoric from the right, especially on the day after the murder of five police officers. It's enough to make you think even the most sturdy-seeming ideologies can be dislodged in times of crisis—and that, as horrendously sad as this week has been, it may end up being some sort of turning point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 12, 2016, 08:46:33 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2016, 02:32:09 AM
Good on Newt :)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/07/08/newt_gingrich_and_other_conservatives_seem_to_be_coming_to_terms_with_racism.html

Quote
Are Conservatives Coming to Terms With Racism in American Policing?

It's almost too banal to call it a prediction: The assassination of five law enforcement officers in Dallas on Thursday night is sure to further polarize the national debate over race and policing, and provide new fodder for those who reflexively oppose any suggestion that American police officers unfairly target black people.

Leon Neyfakh is a Slate staff writer.

Evidence of this has already come in, with former Rep. Joe Walsh tweeting threats at "Black Lives Matter punks" and the New York Post splashing the words "CIVIL WAR" on its front page. And yet, two pieces of writing published on conservative news sites on Friday morning, as well as an extraordinary Facebook Live chat with former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, suggest that the combination of Thursday night's carnage and the police killings of two black men earlier in the week might be changing some minds on the right.

The comments made by Gingrich are arguably the most newsworthy:

It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years to get a sense of this. If you are a normal, white American, the truth is you don't understand being black in America and you instinctively under-estimate the level of discrimination and the level of additional risk.

The Black Lives Matter movement, Gingrich said, should be seen as a "corrective" that "initially people reject because it's not in their world."


The former House speaker's remarks lit up social media, with many expressing disbelief that Newt Gingrich—the Personal Responsibility Act guy? The one angling for the VP slot on Donald Trump's ticket?—would express such sentiments.

But Gingrich wasn't the only conservative who was moved on Friday to break the rules of conservative discourse. Over at the Daily Caller, writer Matt K. Lewis wrote a post that opened with an unequivocal assertion: "[P]olice brutality toward African-Americans is a pervasive problem that has been going on for generations." In the post, headlined "A confession," Lewis grappled with the fact that, as a white person, he was raised to "reflexively believe the police" and "give them the benefit of the doubt," while many black Americans have reasonably come to the conclusion that they and their children are "living under an occupying army."

Lewis' post ended with an expression of hope that videos of police encounters like the two that surfaced this week would cause "naive, white Americans" to start seeing the issue of police violence against blacks with less cloudy eyes.

One such white American has turned out to be Leon H. Wolf, managing editor of the website RedState. Friday morning, Wolf published what might be the most striking of all the conservative commentary we've seen on Dallas. In a post titled "The Uncomfortable Reason Why It Came to This In Dallas Yesterday," Wolf argued that it was time to acknowledge not only the "lingering mistrust between police and minority communities,” but the fact that this mistrust is based on something real: namely, that "police often interact with minority communities in different ways than they do with the white community."

"Look, I don't know," Wolf writes. "I don't want to rush to judgment on either the Baton Rouge shooting or the Falcon Heights shooting, but based upon what we have seen, they look bad. Very bad."

Wolf goes on to violate some basic orthodoxies of conservative commentary on law enforcement, criticizing commenters on his own website "who look for even the smallest hook on which to hang an excuse for the cops" whenever he posts a story about police violence, and questioning their "blind, uncritical belief that the police never (or only in freak circumstances) do anything wrong."

It is surprising and intriguing to see such rhetoric from the right, especially on the day after the murder of five police officers. It's enough to make you think even the most sturdy-seeming ideologies can be dislodged in times of crisis—and that, as horrendously sad as this week has been, it may end up being some sort of turning point.

Politics . He does give a shit about the black man, unless it gets his VP selection from Trump.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 12:02:05 PM
But make no mistake:  Gingrich will continue to wage the War on Wives With Cancer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 12, 2016, 03:48:21 PM
Listed to most of Obama's Dallas speech on NPR.  Pretty typical "both sides are right, both sides are wrong" Obama speech on race (or anything really).

That being said, giving that particular speech at a memorial for dead cops does move the pile a bit IMO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 04:57:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 12, 2016, 03:48:21 PM
Listed to most of Obama's Dallas speech on NPR.  Pretty typical "both sides are right, both sides are wrong" Obama speech on race (or anything really).

That being said, giving that particular speech at a memorial for dead cops does move the pile a bit IMO.

What got me specifically was how he said, "None of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune, and that includes our police departments."

Yep, really great thing to say at the memorial.  I'm sure the cops' families appreciate that.  And as always, when Pres. Obama uses "us" and "we" in a preachy context, he means everyone *but* him and his side.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 12, 2016, 05:01:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 04:57:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 12, 2016, 03:48:21 PM
Listed to most of Obama's Dallas speech on NPR.  Pretty typical "both sides are right, both sides are wrong" Obama speech on race (or anything really).

That being said, giving that particular speech at a memorial for dead cops does move the pile a bit IMO.

What got me specifically was how he said, "None of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune, and that includes our police departments."

Yep, really great thing to say at the memorial.  I'm sure the cops' families appreciate that.  And as always, when Pres. Obama uses "us" and "we" in a preachy context, he means everyone *but* him and his side.

:rolleyes:

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 12, 2016, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 04:57:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 12, 2016, 03:48:21 PM
Listed to most of Obama's Dallas speech on NPR.  Pretty typical "both sides are right, both sides are wrong" Obama speech on race (or anything really).

That being said, giving that particular speech at a memorial for dead cops does move the pile a bit IMO.

What got me specifically was how he said, "None of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune, and that includes our police departments."

Yep, really great thing to say at the memorial.  I'm sure the cops' families appreciate that.  And as always, when Pres. Obama uses "us" and "we" in a preachy context, he means everyone *but* him and his side.

Of course. When he says "we" he means "not me".

Your command of Pravda language is impressive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 12, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
Just like how's he secretly a Muslim and an Athiest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 12, 2016, 05:18:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.

If you want to assign blame, let's blame the Dutch for introducing African slaves into the New World.  If reparations are to be paid, it should be The Netherlands doing the paying.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on July 12, 2016, 05:33:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.

How is Obama in any way blame-worthy for what happened in Dallas?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 05:39:36 PM
If only Rudy Guiliani had gotten there in time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2016, 05:48:23 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 12, 2016, 08:46:33 AM


Politics . He does give a shit about the black man, unless it gets his VP selection from Trump.
That kind of statement is much more likely to hurt his chances of being VP than help.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 12, 2016, 05:33:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.

How is Obama in any way blame-worthy for what happened in Dallas?

He's probably not. But that's beside the point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 05:54:57 PM
lol, "probably."  Congress should look into that. 

I mean, that whole Poland thing could just have been an elaborately staged hoax; he never went there in the first place.  WIKTOR ONE
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
I loved Dubya swaying and bouncing during the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 12, 2016, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
I loved Dubya swaying and bouncing during the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

That was fantastic

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/752953055629471744
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 06:01:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 05:54:57 PM
lol, "probably."  Congress should look into that. 

I mean, that whole Poland thing could just have been an elaborately staged hoax; he never went there in the first place.  WIKTOR ONE

Threw that in there just for you hon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 12, 2016, 06:14:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.

"He" is blameless?

Just because he is black doesn't mean he is the representative of all black people. They are each, individually, people themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 12, 2016, 06:18:30 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 06:01:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 05:54:57 PM
lol, "probably."  Congress should look into that. 

I mean, that whole Poland thing could just have been an elaborately staged hoax; he never went there in the first place.  WIKTOR ONE

Threw that in there just for you hon.
I think you may want to lay off trolling for a while, people are legitimately unable to distinguish your act from your real self.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 12, 2016, 06:28:58 PM
http://m.wmctv.com/wmctv/db_381569/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=3Geqzt55

Quote


TOP STORIES 1 of 1


Marine stops man from killing Memphis officer
WMCActionNews5.com Staff, Rose Eiklor
Jul 6, 2016 03:45 PM
MEMPHIS, TN (WMC) - A good Samaritan spotted a Memphis police officer in trouble, so he stepped in to help.

Memphis Police Department said an officer saw a man trying to sell an EBT card outside Cash Saver on Madison Avenue around 1:20 Monday morning.

The officer asked Michael Greene to walk with him to the police car, but Greene started acting very nervous. When the officer patted him down to look for weapons, he felt a metal pipe in Greene's waistband.

The officer put one handcuff on Greene, at which point the officer said Greene hit him in the face with the handcuffs. Greene hit him several times with his fist and tried to grab the pipe in his waistband. According to the report, Greene screamed, "I will kill you, you little (expletive)."

This is when Marine Darryle Tate drove by. He saw what was happening and jumped out of his car.

"One handcuff was on this arm, and he was using the loose part of the handcuff to hit the officer," Tate recalled.

Tate was able to pull Greene off of the officer and get control of the situation.

"I just straddled him out--put my arm around his neck and pulled him up with enough force to get him off the ground," Tate said.

Tate spent 25 years as an active duty Marine. He also served as a police officer in California.

Memphis Police Department said Tate may have saved an officer's life with his actions.

Tate said he's just happy he was able to help.



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 12, 2016, 06:35:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2016, 05:01:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 04:57:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 12, 2016, 03:48:21 PM
Listed to most of Obama's Dallas speech on NPR.  Pretty typical "both sides are right, both sides are wrong" Obama speech on race (or anything really).

That being said, giving that particular speech at a memorial for dead cops does move the pile a bit IMO.

What got me specifically was how he said, "None of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune, and that includes our police departments."

Yep, really great thing to say at the memorial.  I'm sure the cops' families appreciate that.  And as always, when Pres. Obama uses "us" and "we" in a preachy context, he means everyone *but* him and his side.

:rolleyes:

I watched most of it and it was an excellent speech. Onus on the cops, African-Americans, Krackers, and the country. Well done speech.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 06:42:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2016, 06:14:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.

"He" is blameless?

Just because he is black doesn't mean he is the representative of all black people. They are each, individually, people themselves.

You're missing my point. I meant he thinks he's blameless in general. I wasn't even talking about race.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 12, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Of course you weren't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 06:54:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Of course you weren't.

:huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 06:59:01 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 06:54:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Of course you weren't.

:huh:

MONSTORUS  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 12, 2016, 06:35:18 PM
I watched most of it and it was an excellent speech. Onus on the cops, African-Americans, Krackers, and the country. Well done speech.

He mentioned himself 45 times in that speech.  But no, not a narcissist.  Not at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 12, 2016, 09:00:56 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
He's blameless in his own mind; he just uses a thin veneer of humility.

Thanks for the mind reading, Madam Derspiess.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ba/97/1d/ba971d5076821fe485334dc44ee5cfca.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 12, 2016, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 12, 2016, 06:18:30 PM
I think you may want to lay off trolling for a while, people are legitimately unable to distinguish your act from your real self.

You really think there is a "real self" to his schtick?  I think it is all trolling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 12, 2016, 09:04:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 12, 2016, 06:35:18 PM
I watched most of it and it was an excellent speech. Onus on the cops, African-Americans, Krackers, and the country. Well done speech.

I thought it was probably the best speech I've heard from him.  Excellent delivery.  Kinda hurt by the audience clapping at the wrong times, but he couldn't do anything about that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 12, 2016, 09:14:40 PM
It's indistinguishable from the statements from many actual republicans.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/07/12/baton-rouge-police-plot-attack-officers/ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/07/12/baton-rouge-police-plot-attack-officers/)

QuoteAha, the truth is NOW coming out...Racist Barry Odumbo already convicted the police....Odumbo lied, 5 white cops died

QuoteEveryone needs to hear the truth about who is killed more by who because obama got this started with his lies.

Obama has blood on his hands for many of the things he has done have led to wars and murders and so this is a small bit of blood compared to his body count from Fast and Furious, the war in Libya which lit the Mid-East and North Africa (BLM anyone) on fire again with arms obama and hillary (and mccain) supplied.

And this is why if enough people knew enough then he would not be looked to for leadership, he would be known for what he is and his schemes would be obvious.

QuoteObama's homies

Despite making up just 13% of the population, blacks committed half of homicides in the United States for nearly 30 years.

DOJ statistics show that between 1980 and 2008, black people committed 52% of homicides.

In 2013, black criminals committed 38% of the murders. Whites accounted for just 31 percent.

There are five times fewer black people than white people in America and, yet, they consistently carry out a larger share of the crimes? Given this rate, it's no wonder that there aren't more assistances where cops kill black criminals.

It would take cops 40 years to kill as many black men as have died at the hands of others black men in 2012 alone.

University of Toledo criminologist Dr. Richard R. Johnson examined the latest crime datafrom the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports and Centers for Disease Control and found that an average of 4,472 black men were killed by other black men annually between Jan. 1, 2009, and Dec. 31, 2012.

Professor Johnson's research further concluded that 112 black men died from both justified and unjustified police-involved killings annually during this same period.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on July 13, 2016, 12:57:07 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
I loved Dubya swaying and bouncing during the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Open bar. He fell off the wagon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 13, 2016, 02:06:26 AM
Quote from: fromtia on July 13, 2016, 12:57:07 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
I loved Dubya swaying and bouncing during the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Open bar. He fell off the wagon.

Nah, he's just likes to groove...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gpfjghFHsE
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on July 13, 2016, 02:40:40 AM
Quote from: dps on July 12, 2016, 05:18:32 PM
If you want to assign blame, let's blame the Dutch for introducing African slaves into the New World.  If reparations are to be paid, it should be The Netherlands doing the paying.

I've never heard of this dubious honour. :huh:

I thought that, as with football, it's the Portuguese who are to be blamed for everything unsavoury  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 13, 2016, 06:06:39 AM
Quote from: fromtia on July 13, 2016, 12:57:07 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
I loved Dubya swaying and bouncing during the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Open bar. He fell off the wagon.

You have to hand it to the man:  so many have promised that the frat party would never end after graduation; he actually delivered.  #StElmosFire
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2016, 09:26:22 PM
Another speech from a surpising source

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/on-the-senate-floor-black-gop-senator-talks-of-disrespect-from-police/2016/07/13/db67c7de-4949-11e6-bdb9-701687974517_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-more-top-stories_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

QuoteBy David Weigel

July 13 at 7:46 PM  

South Carolina's Tim Scott, the sole black Republican in the Senate, delivered a bristling and personal speech Wednesday in which he talked of being questioned by police simply because of his race.

"There's a deep divide between the black community and law enforcement — a trust gap," Scott said. "I do not know many African American men who do not have a very similar story to tell, no matter their profession, no matter their income, no matter their disposition in life."

Scott, whose political career began 21 years ago on Charleston's City Council, joined Congress in 2010 by defeating one of the sons of former senator Strom Thurmond. He served just one term in the House before being elevated to the Senate by Gov. Nikki Haley (R), the state's first female and nonwhite governor. After they endorsed Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) for president, Haley joked that the future of the Republican Party "looked like a United Colors of Benetton ad."

But Scott, the first black Republican in the Senate since the 1970s, did not leap forward to be a spokesman on race. As recently as last September, Scott defended the use of the term "All Lives Matter," which the Black Lives Matter movement views as another way to diminish the threats that black people live with in America, telling CNN that "if that is somehow offensive to someone, that's their issue, not mine."

That heightened the drama of Scott's speech, the second of three he is giving in response to last week's shootings. "The good Lord has given me a soapbox, and I'm going to use this soapbox to talk about what needs to be spoken about," he told his home town newspaper this week. On Tuesday, Scott praised the sacrifices of police officers; on Wednesday he described the worst of seven humiliating incidents with the police since winning public office that had humiliated him.

"The vast majority of time, I was pulled over for nothing more than driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood, or some reason just as trivial," Scott said. "Imagine the frustration, the irritation, the sense of a loss of dignity that accompanies each of those stops."

Another time, Scott said, he was entering one of the Senate's offices wearing the pin that identified him as a member of Congress. An officer stopped him, demanding his identification.

"I was thinking to myself: Either he thinks I'm committing a crime, impersonating a member of Congress, or what?" Scott said.


That incident elicited the third call Scott has received from Capitol police to offer an apology for misidentifying him. He was not the first black legislator with a similar story; In 2006, Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.) got into a scuffle with an officer who did not recognize her. McKinney's incident created a brief national firestorm. Scott did not tell his story until Wednesday.

"While I thank God I have not endured bodily harm, I have, however, felt the pressure applied by the scales of justice when they are slanted," Scott said. "I have felt the anger, the frustration, the sadness and the humiliation that comes with the feeling that you are being targeted for being nothing more than yourself."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2016, 10:58:27 PM
NYPD  :rolleyes:

http://nypost.com/2015/09/01/cop-suing-over-minority-arrest-quotas-says-he-faced-retaliation/
QuoteNYPD set arrest quotas for minority cops in their own communities: suit


By Selim Algar and Josh Saul

A dozen black and ​Hispanic police officers have sued the city and the NYPD​, saying bosses forced them to carry out illegal arrest quotas "against their own minority community" — and one of those cops simultaneously filed a​ separate federal lawsuit claiming he faced retaliation from his fellow cops and police brass when he complained about the "racially discriminatory and illegal mandatory enforcement activity," new court papers state.

Police officer Adhyl Polanco claims his locker was plastered over with pictures of police union president Patrick Lynch last year and that another officer called him a "f—— bitch" because of his scathing critiques, his Brooklyn federal court lawsuit states.

Meanwhile, Polanco and 11 other minority cops claimed in Manhattan federal court that the quotas disproportionately affect them — more than white cops — because they "are unwilling to perform racially discriminatory and unwarranted enforcement actions against the minority community."

The Post exclusively reported on Polanco and allegations that quotas are discriminatory toward minorities in March.

By forcing minority cops to comply with the "illegal quota system," the city and the NYPD are subjecting black and Latino cops to unfair evaluations and discipline, the suit states.

The suit also says the performance evaluation is unfair because it's not evenly applied to all precincts and that cops in precincts with lots of minorities have to make more arrests and issue more tickets than cops in "a precinct located in a predominantly white residential area," the suit states.

The 12 named plaintiffs in the suit are all black and Latino NYPD officers who claim to have been penalized for reporting and complaining about "the illegal quotas and its racially discriminatory application against the minority community," the suit states.

The top NYPD spokesman said that the department doesn't use quotas.

"There are no numerical enforcement quotas established by the NYPD," police department spokesman Stephen Davis said in a statement.

"Performance evaluations are conducted for all department employees based on an assessment of their duties, responsibilities and specific conditions of their assignments."

A city Law Department spokesman said the city would evaluate the merits of each of these claims and respond accordingly once they are served.

Polanco — who testified against the city in a federal high-profile stop-and-frisk case — joined the NYPD in 2005 and began blasting controversial department tactics to a host of media outlets beginning in 2009.

"The substance of officer Polanco's statements was his opposition to the unfair, racially discriminatory and illegal mandatory enforcement activity which targets the minority African-American and Latino community to which officer Polanco belongs," the suit states.

In addition to his media campaign, Polanco reported alleged departmental wrongdoing to the NYPD Internal Affairs Bureau.

According to his Brooklyn federal court lawsuit against the city and the NYPD, Polanco contends that his whistleblowing quickly resulted in a sustained campaign of retaliation — including repeated suspensions, promotion denials and suggestions that he was mentally ill.

The measures included "1500 days suspension without pay, ... over 1500 days on restricted duty psychological hold without cause, no vacation for four years, no overtime for four years" and other punishments.

"In January 2010, Officer Polanco was further retaliated against for his opposition to the racially discriminatory quota practices of the NYPD by being placed on modified assignment transfer out of command and placed on mental watch through 2015," the suit states.

Polanco claims that his locker was "vandalized by being pasted over with photographs of PBA Union Leader Patrick Lynch" last year and that another cop called him a "f—— b—-" because of his demand for reforms.

He complained to internal affairs about the mistreatment but was ignored, the suit states.

"Plaintiff also requested a transfer out of this precinct as his safety is under threat in this environment but his request was not addressed," the suit states.

Despite enjoying seniority over several counterparts, Polanco claims he has been given posts and assignments inferior to white colleagues' "for failing to meet monthly summons and arrests quotas."

Polanco claims that the retaliation intensified after he testified in several federal class-action suits against the city that opposed stop-and-frisk strategies.

"The discriminatory actions of the Defendants are ongoing and continue to this day," the suit states.



Gawker has a police Captain on audio pressuring an officer to stop more African-Americans.

http://gawker.com/heres-audio-of-what-sounds-like-an-nypd-captain-pressur-1783544682?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

QuoteCommanding Officer: Who commits the crimes in the city?

Birch: Who commits the crimes? Well, it's mostly teenagers, anywhere between the ages of 15 and 19, mostly male blacks and Hispanics.

OK. Who are you stopping?

Everybody. I stop everybody.

Fifty-four TABs up to 8/20. Twenty-five of those are female. Half.

Like I said, I stop everybody. I'm not targeting anybody.

You just told me who the bad guys are.

Yeah, I know that. But there's also other people who are committing violations as well. I'm not saying that there's not violations being made.

The male blacks, that you told me commit the crimes—

Plenty of people that I write summonses to are male blacks and male Hispanics.

You stopped two male blacks.

Not for the whole year. You're telling me for the whole year I only stopped two male blacks on summonses?

8/20. From January 1st to August 20th. Fifty-four TABs: two male blacks, seven Hispanics, seven other, ten white, three Asian. So where are you targeting the perps that you just told me?

Like I said, if I don't see a perp jumping over the turnstile, what am I supposed to do to him?

These people are not going to pop.

How do I know that? A female Hispanic that I stopped in Sheepshead Bay did pop, actually, for a warrant, and I arrested her. Female Hispanic. The Hispanics that we're supposed to be going after. That are committing the crimes. The people that I—

Did you think that she was going to pop?

Did I think she was going to pop? I didn't put no thought into it. If you come up for a collar, I'm taking you in.

Here's what I see. You just described to me who's committing the crimes. You're fully aware of it. But you're not targeting those people.

I am. I'm targeting everybody.

Two male blacks.

Whoever is out there. If I—

So you only saw two male blacks jump the turnstile?

If you're saying that's what's in front of you, then yes, that's all I saw, is two male blacks for the whole year jumping the turnstile. If you're saying that's what's in front of you, I'm not disputing that. If that's what I got there.

That is what you have. That is not disputed here.

I'm saying, we're also talking Hispanics as well. I stopped a lot of Hispanics, too.

Seven male Hispanics. But more than half are female.

And like I said, everybody's committing violations in front of me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 13, 2016, 11:09:34 PM
Quote
Most Cops Are Criminals And Here's The Proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DooW3EnX_e4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DooW3EnX_e4)

Videos of Alton Sterling being murdered by two Baton Rouge police officers ignited protest and outrage throughout the country. Immediately after killing Alton Sterling, the police department immediately went into damage control mode, locking down the store where it occurred, detaining its owner and illegally seizing the security camera footage.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 14, 2016, 02:15:21 AM
That is proof that most cops are criminals? How about you don't post shitty blog posts?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 14, 2016, 07:32:37 AM
citizen k has been deep into the conspiracy theory bullshit for awhile now. If you are not completely pure, you are completely evil type teenage nonsense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 14, 2016, 07:33:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 14, 2016, 02:15:21 AM
That is proof that most cops are criminals? How about you don't post shitty blog posts?

Unattributed shitty blog posts, to boot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on July 17, 2016, 01:17:42 PM
More dead police.
QuoteBATON ROUGE, La. (AP) — Three law enforcement officers were killed and three others wounded Sunday morning in a shooting near a gas station in Baton Rouge, less than two weeks after a black man was shot and killed by police here, sparking nightly protests across the city.


One suspect in the shooting was killed and law enforcement officials believe two others might still be at large, said Casey Rayborn Hicks, a spokeswoman for the East Baton Rouge Sheriff's Office. The city was on high alert, officials said.

The shooting — just before 9 a.m., less than 1 mile from police headquarters — comes amid spiraling tensions across the city — and the country — between the black community and police. The races of the suspects and the officers were not immediately known.

Gov. John Bel Edwards rushed to the hospital where the shot officers were taken.

"Rest assured, every resource available to the State of Louisiana will be used to ensure the perpetrators are swiftly brought to justice," Edwards said in a statement.

The shooting took place at a gas station near a fitness center on Airline Highway, Baton Rouge Police Cpl. L'Jean Mckneely Jr. said. The slain shooter's body was next door, outside a fitness center. Police said they were using a specialized robot to check for explosives near the body.

On Sunday afternoon, more than a dozen police cars with lights flashing were massed near a commercial area of car dealerships and chain restaurants on Airline Highway, not far from police headquarters. Police armed with long guns on the road stopped at least two vehicles driving away from the scene and checked their trunks and vehicles before allowing them to drive away.

That area was about a quarter of a mile from a gas station where almost nightly protests had been taking place against the recent police shooting.

Baton Rouge Police Sgt. Don Coppola told The Associated Press earlier that the officers were rushed to a local hospital. Coppola said authorities are asking people to stay away from the area.

Multiple police units were stationed at Our Lady of the Lake Regional Medical Center, where spokeswoman Ashley Mendoza said five patients from the police shooting, all "law enforcement professionals" had been taken. A police officer with a long gun was blocking the parking lot at the emergency room. Of the two who survived the shooting, one is in critical condition and the other is in fair condition.

Officers and deputies from the Baton Rouge Police Department and East Baton Rouge Sheriff's Office were involved, according to Hicks.

Police-community relations in Baton Rouge have been especially tense since the killing of 37-year-old Alton Sterling, a black man killed by white officers earlier this month after a scuffle at a convenience store. The killing was captured on cellphone video and circulated widely on the internet.

It was followed a day later by the shooting death of another black man in Minnesota, whose girlfriend livestreamed the aftermath of his death on Facebook. Then on Thursday, a black gunman in Dallas opened fire on police at a protest about the police shootings, killing five officers and heightening tensions even further.

Over the weekend, thousands of people took to the streets in Baton Rouge to condemn Sterling's death, including hundreds of demonstrators who congregated outside the police station. Authorities arrested about 200 people over the three-day weekend.

Michelle Rogers, 56, said the pastor at her church had led prayers Sunday for Sterling's family and police officers, asking members of the congregation to stand up if they knew an officer.

Rogers said an officer in the congregation hastily left the church near the end of the service, and a pastor announced that "something had happened."

"But he didn't say what. Then we started getting texts about officers down," she said.

Rogers and her husband drove near the scene, but were blocked at an intersection closed down by police.

"I can't explain what brought us here," she said. "We just said a prayer in the car for the families."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 17, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
:(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 17, 2016, 04:40:12 PM
Terrible. What a year. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 17, 2016, 05:07:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 17, 2016, 04:40:12 PM
Terrible. What a year. :(

I think politicised gun violence is here to stay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 17, 2016, 05:37:40 PM
At least a lot of people are praying,that should help.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 17, 2016, 07:33:00 PM
Some provocative art

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/artist-flag-protests-lynching-by-police.html?ribbon-ad-idx=2&rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Hamilcar on July 17, 2016, 07:37:32 PM
It's time we recognized Foucault for what he is: the foundation of victim-complex fuelled terrorism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 17, 2016, 08:54:25 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-rouge-officer-profiles/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 17, 2016, 10:18:47 PM
Heartbreaking :(  Can't help but wonder now which city is next.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Phillip V on July 18, 2016, 12:32:46 AM
Shooter seemed to be a black militant nationalist anti-white power kind of guy according to social media.

http://on.wsj.com/2a2JvC2 (http://on.wsj.com/2a2JvC2)

(https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-OY538_BTRSHO_M_20160717230326.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 18, 2016, 08:49:10 AM
Looks like a pimp.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 08:50:11 AM
It is always the clean cut ones.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 18, 2016, 02:22:07 PM
Fucker used a Tavor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2016, 03:14:56 PM
Pretty awful. I'm not liking how this shit is heating up. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2016, 03:14:56 PM
Pretty awful. I'm not liking how this shit is heating up. :(

Yeah. I was hoping we would enter into an intense discussion on police reform.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 18, 2016, 03:19:25 PM
To some extent this is not terribly surprising.

There are some crazy nutjobs out there, and at least some of them are presumably looking for some kind of psychological trigger or excuse to enact their crazy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 18, 2016, 06:09:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2016, 03:14:56 PM
Pretty awful. I'm not liking how this shit is heating up. :(

Yeah. I was hoping we would enter into an intense discussion on police reform.


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia%2F2-08-2016%2FDP1tip.gif&hash=8cadf09cf4c91eb8fa69fc09a9d67969ba8b9da2)

This is a war, and Black Lives Matter is the enemy, By Sheriff David Clarke (http://www.thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/sheriff-david%20clarke-black-lives-matter-baton-rouge-civil-war)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 18, 2016, 06:19:53 PM
Who the fuck is this idiot anyway?  Yahoo News for some reason keeps thinking that I'm interested in his crazy raving, and keep giving me stories with outlandish titles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 08:50:34 PM
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2016/07/19/criticism-for-marilyn-mosby-after-3rd-officer-acquittal/

:pinch:  Ms. Mosby done messed up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 08:55:25 PM
Meh, money's already been spent.  Might as well finish the rest. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
This was all she needed to secure her name in the annals of Maryland history.  And to get for her a nomination for, dare I say?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
This was all she needed to secure her name in the annals of Maryland history.  And to get for her a nomination for, dare I say?

Someone in police custody died in a manner ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner's office.  She did her job; something those cops didn't do.

Oh wait, I forgot, he was only a filthy fucking nigger, so shit happens, LOL suck it, dead nigger.  #DeadNiggerStorageHaHaHaHa
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 20, 2016, 09:24:34 PM
A little something for derspiess' spank bank

http://gawker.com/video-shows-unarmed-black-man-pleading-with-arms-raised-1784004594

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--KUWbji2j--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/uzvfwj8vgdrborv3y8y0.png)

QuoteVideo Shows Unarmed Black Man Pleading With Arms Raised Before Getting Shot by Police

On Wednesday, WSVN aired a cell phone video reportedly taken moments before caregiver Charles Kinsey was shot by North Miami police. In it, Kinsey, who survived, can be see lying on the ground with his hands raised, explaining that him and the autistic man he was assisting are unarmed.

"I thought it was a mosquito bite, and when it hit me I had my hands in the air, and I'm thinking I just got shot!" Kinsey told WSVN. "And I'm saying, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?' and his words to me were, 'I don't know.'"

According to police, officers were dispatched to the scene of the shooting on Monday after getting a 911 call about a man with a gun threatening suicide.

"Arriving officers attempted to negotiate with two men on the scene, one of whom was later identified as suffering from autism," said North Miami Police in a statement. "At some point during the on-scene negotiation, one of the responding officers discharged his weapon, striking the employee."

According to WPLG, police later said the autistic man "had something in his hand." In the video, Kinsey can be heard identifying the object as a toy truck.

After shooting him, Kinsey says police put him in handcuffs.

North Miami Police say the officer who shot Kinsey has been placed on administrative leave, but have not released the officer's name or said if he will face any charges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:42:19 PM
Pffft.  Guy's still alive.  Weak.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 20, 2016, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
This was all she needed to secure her name in the annals of Maryland history.  And to get for her a nomination for, dare I say?

Someone in police custody died in a manner ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner's office.  She did her job; something those cops didn't do.

Oh wait, I forgot, he was only a filthy fucking nigger, so shit happens, LOL suck it, dead nigger.  #DeadNiggerStorageHaHaHaHa


http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/19/486581466/police-and-black-lives-matter-hold-a-cookout-and-praise-rolls-in

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.npr.org%2Fassets%2Fimg%2F2016%2F07%2F19%2Fwichita-police_custom-8a11fe8608e29e81b84afff1d325ee04f1ca60e8-s1600-c85.jpg&hash=bf65a119217683d81e9a6f443be94b26222db8e8)

Quote

Members of the Wichita, Kan., police department spent Sunday afternoon eating and talking with people from the community, at a cookout that was planned with the local Black Lives Matter group.

The event was called the First Steps Community Cookout — a reference to its goal of bridging the gap between police and the community they serve. Taking place instead of a protest that had been planned for Sunday, the cookout came about after Wichita Police Chief Gordon Ramsay had a lengthy meeting with activist A.J. Bohannon and other members of the local Black Lives Matter movement.

:wub:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 20, 2016, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 18, 2016, 06:09:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2016, 03:14:56 PM
Pretty awful. I'm not liking how this shit is heating up. :(

Yeah. I was hoping we would enter into an intense discussion on police reform.


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia%2F2-08-2016%2FDP1tip.gif&hash=8cadf09cf4c91eb8fa69fc09a9d67969ba8b9da2)

This is a war, and Black Lives Matter is the enemy, By Sheriff David Clarke (http://www.thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/sheriff-david%20clarke-black-lives-matter-baton-rouge-civil-war)

But, but he's blek.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:52:11 PM
DEEPLOMAHTIC IMMOONIDY
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 09:53:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Someone in police custody died in a manner ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner's office.  She did her job; something those cops didn't do.

Nah, she grandstanded to try and boost her political career.  Remember that little press conference of hers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 20, 2016, 09:56:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 09:53:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Someone in police custody died in a manner ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner's office.  She did her job; something those cops didn't do.

Nah, she grandstanded to try and boost her political career.  Remember that little press conference of hers?

Basically
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:57:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 09:53:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Someone in police custody died in a manner ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner's office.  She did her job; something those cops didn't do.

Nah, she grandstanded to try and boost her political career.  Remember that little press conference of hers?

Dude, I fucking get it.  Black lives really don't matter.  You don't have to keep trying to convince me.  Reading you loud and clear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 10:09:35 PM
All lives matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 10:31:40 PM
Blah blah blah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 21, 2016, 01:18:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 10:09:35 PM
All lives matter.

When are you going to act like it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 07:01:43 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Someone in police custody died in a manner ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner's office.  She did her job; something those cops didn't do.

Yeah I don't understand the outrage about looking into the deaths of citizens. But Spicey and I have been in a disagreement about this from the beginning. I think it is very dangerous for our entire society to NOT have very public and earnest investigations into these incidents. I think the results have shown my opinion to be correct in this manner. What Spicey's  recommendations are I have no idea.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 07:03:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 09:53:22 PM
Nah, she grandstanded to try and boost her political career.  Remember that little press conference of hers?

So clearly then trying to address the needs and concerns and investigate a serious threat to our entire society is bad? I mean nothing is going to be 100% pure and noble.

What is your recommendation for trying to address the deaths of citizens at the hands of police officers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on July 21, 2016, 07:37:05 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 07:03:12 AM
So clearly then trying to address the needs and concerns and investigate a serious threat to our entire society is bad? I mean nothing is going to be 100% pure and noble.

What is your recommendation for trying to address the deaths of citizens at the hands of police officers?
Investigate =! prosecute. Prosecutors shouldn't bring cases that are unsupported by the evidence. The cases against some of these officers seem particularly weak, from what I've seen. It may be that some of the officers should have been prosecuted, but they seem to have case a wide net and brought cases against everyone even tangentially involved here, despite the weakness of the charges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 07:43:59 AM
Quote from: Kleves on July 21, 2016, 07:37:05 AMInvestigate =! prosecute. Prosecutors shouldn't bring cases that are unsupported by the evidence. The cases against some of these officers seem particularly weak, from what I've seen. It may be that some of the officers should have been prosecuted, but they seem to have case a wide net and brought cases against everyone even tangentially involved here, despite the weakness of the charges.

I get this complaint. The main thing I wanted was a public and open Grand Jury hearing where the public could be assured that every shooting was being taken very seriously.

However this is better than what we were doing before. I mean we have large segments of the population feeling like they can be shot at will. You need to re-assure everybody that is not the case. Now a certain percentage of nutjobs will never believe that regardless of what you do but most people want to trust the cops in the end.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 07:50:27 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 07:01:43 AM
Yeah I don't understand the outrage about looking into the deaths of citizens. But Spicey and I have been in a disagreement about this from the beginning. I think it is very dangerous for our entire society to NOT have very public and earnest investigations into these incidents. I think the results have shown my opinion to be correct in this manner. What Spicey's  recommendations are I have no idea.

I think that the prosecutions were certainly justified; Gray was murdered, and prosecution has the side benefit of drawing out the amusing trolls who try to draw attention away from the fact that he was murdered by imputing other motives to the prosecution.

However, negligent homicide is hard to prove, and the prosecution has failed to gain a conviction on the strongest cases, so, at some point, this becomes a pointless exercise.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 21, 2016, 08:03:31 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 07:50:27 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 07:01:43 AM
Yeah I don't understand the outrage about looking into the deaths of citizens. But Spicey and I have been in a disagreement about this from the beginning. I think it is very dangerous for our entire society to NOT have very public and earnest investigations into these incidents. I think the results have shown my opinion to be correct in this manner. What Spicey's  recommendations are I have no idea.

I think that the prosecutions were certainly justified; Gray was murdered, and prosecution has the side benefit of drawing out the amusing trolls who try to draw attention away from the fact that he was murdered by imputing other motives to the prosecution.

However, negligent homicide is hard to prove, and the prosecution has failed to gain a conviction on the strongest cases, so, at some point, this becomes a pointless exercise.
In what ways are the trolls amusing?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 08:09:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 21, 2016, 08:03:31 AM
In what ways are the trolls amusing?  :huh:

Their utter predictability.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2016, 01:18:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 20, 2016, 10:09:35 PM
All lives matter.

When are you going to act like it?

Tell me how I need to act like it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 08:30:47 AM
As a Twitter user said, "He was non-threatening, complied with every order, and told the officers exactly what was going on... and he still got shot. What's your excuse this time?"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/21/fla-man-says-his-hands-were-up-when-police-shot-him/87377306/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/21/fla-man-says-his-hands-were-up-when-police-shot-him/87377306/)

QuoteA black Florida man trying to calm his patient with autism was shot by a police officer Monday, despite having his hands in the air, he said Wednesday.

North Miami Assistant Police Chief Neal Cuevas said the incident happened when officers responded to a call that a man with a gun was walking around threatening to shoot himself, the Miami Herald reported. Charles Kinsey, a behavioral therapist, told WSVN-TV that the man police were searching for was his patient, who had escaped from a nearby group home, and the gun was actually a toy truck.

In cell phone video of the incident, Kinsey, 47, is seen laying on the ground with his hands in the air.

In the video, he repeatedly assures police the young man does not have a gun.

"All he has is a toy truck in his hands," Kinsey said in the video. "I am a behavior therapist at a group home."

Throughout the incident, Kinsey's patient refused to comply with police and lay down, although Kinsey encouraged him to follow the officers' directions.

"Rinaldo, please be still," he said in the clip. "Sit down Rinaldo. Lay on your stomach."

Kinsey told WSVN-TV, during the incident he was more worried about the patient than himself.

"I was thinking as long as I have my hands up ... they're not going to shoot me," he told the station, from his hospital bed.

Kinsey said moments later he was shot in the leg, and then handcuffed while the officers waited for medics to arrive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 08:38:41 AM
Yeah.  Mind boggles on that one.  All I can think of is that North Miami is so shitty with crime that the officers were jumpy and were grossly misinformed on what was going on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 08:40:48 AM
Can we have a hearing of some kind on that one without it angering everybody for being nefariously motivated? That would be great.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 08:40:48 AM
Can we have a hearing of some kind on that one without it angering everybody for being nefariously motivated? That would be great.

Let's include why they cuffed Kinsey even though he was clearly the victim, and why they didn't cuff the perp (whose shot they all witnessed).  I mean, fuck, when you witness a shooting firsthand but let the perp walk (without even disarming him!), you are endangering both the public and yourself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 09:12:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 08:40:48 AM
Can we have a hearing of some kind on that one without it angering everybody for being nefariously motivated? That would be great.

Let's include why they cuffed Kinsey even though he was clearly the victim, and why they didn't cuff the perp (whose shot they all witnessed).  I mean, fuck, when you witness a shooting firsthand but let the perp walk (without even disarming him!), you are endangering both the public and yourself.

In this case, I think that would have been the wiser move than leaving Kinsey to bleed out on the road for 20 minutes before the ambulance arrived, instead.

Kinsey asked the cop why he shot him, and the cop said, "I don't know." When another officer asked him why he shot at all, the cop said, "I don't know!"

How did he walk away from that incident with his gun still on him?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 21, 2016, 09:20:54 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 09:12:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 08:40:48 AM
Can we have a hearing of some kind on that one without it angering everybody for being nefariously motivated? That would be great.

Let's include why they cuffed Kinsey even though he was clearly the victim, and why they didn't cuff the perp (whose shot they all witnessed).  I mean, fuck, when you witness a shooting firsthand but let the perp walk (without even disarming him!), you are endangering both the public and yourself.

In this case, I think that would have been the wiser move than leaving Kinsey to bleed out on the road for 20 minutes before the ambulance arrived, instead.

Kinsey asked the cop why he shot him, and the cop said, "I don't know." When another officer asked him why he shot at all, the cop said, "I don't know!"

How did he walk away from that incident with his gun still on him?

I don't know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on July 21, 2016, 10:41:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 08:40:48 AM
Can we have a hearing of some kind on that one without it angering everybody for being nefariously motivated? That would be great.

I just assumed I was reading the onion when this one popped up in the old facebook feed. Had to re read it several times as I was convinced it was some kind of parody.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 10:43:31 AM
Quote from: fromtia on July 21, 2016, 10:41:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 08:40:48 AM
Can we have a hearing of some kind on that one without it angering everybody for being nefariously motivated? That would be great.

I just assumed I was reading the onion when this one popped up in the old facebook feed. Had to re read it several times as I was convinced it was some kind of parody.

I have a feeling the black men walking the streets of America aren't so amused at the thought of a parody of this in any fashion.

I don't condone the cop killings in Dallas and Baton Rouge, but I sure as hell understand it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Lettow77 on July 21, 2016, 10:57:27 AM
It is unfortunate that law enforcement throughout the South is at least to some degree a pillar of the white community used to protect whites from blacks. It has lead to a knee-jerk support for the lamentable actions of white police officers, and a ready dismissal of any outrages provided they were inflicted upon black citizenry.

I would like to see black neighborhoods policed by black police from the area to the fullest extent possible. This, along with a separate, more lenient standard of laws within black neighborhoods, and a direct economic subsidy from white southerners to black southerners, would be a good start at healing the reprehensible violence that grips Dixie so perniciously.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 10:43:31 AM
I don't condone the cop killings in Dallas and Baton Rouge, but I sure as hell understand it.

I could understand it if the cops who were killed had been ones who had done shootings. Absent that it is just murdering innocent people for no reason. But both the men who did them were mentally unbalanced.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 10:43:31 AM
I don't condone the cop killings in Dallas and Baton Rouge, but I sure as hell understand it.

I could understand it if the cops who were killed had been ones who had done shootings. Absent that it is just murdering innocent people for no reason. But both the men who did them were mentally unbalanced.

From the perspective of those on the other side of this (ie black men in particular), no police officer is safe for them. Yes, it was just murdering innocent people, but not for no reason. It's out of fear for their lives.

I just read a Facebook message from a white woman who works at a police department. An older black man - in his 50s - walked into the police department with his hands up. He said, "I'm just lost. I just need directions. I don't want any trouble. Can you just tell me where..."

Hands up into a police department to ask for directions. And as we've seen in North Miami, that's not even enough.

I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 21, 2016, 11:13:03 AM
I think the recent cop killers have murdered out of anger due to misconceived notions of what's happening in america, not out of fear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 21, 2016, 11:13:03 AM
I think the recent cop killers have murdered out of anger due to misconceived notions of what's happening in america, not out of fear.

The recent cop killers have murdered because they were mentally unstable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:16:23 AM
And as I said, I don't condone it. I don't want it happening. I don't want anyone else to die.

But I understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause someone to go that route.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 21, 2016, 11:18:44 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:14:10 AMThe recent cop killers have murdered because they were mentally unstable.

how are we defining "mentally unstable"? anyone who kills people they don't know for some cause can qualify under a broad definition. I'm unaware of evidence that shows all recent cop killers suffered from unmedicated bipolar, schizophrenia, etc.

seems like these guys knew what they were doing
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

Why does every white Democratic woman engage in hysterical rhetoric that lumps all police together?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2016, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:16:23 AM
And as I said, I don't condone it. I don't want it happening. I don't want anyone else to die.

But I understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause someone to go that route.

Do you understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause some cops to go the route they have?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:26:54 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
From the perspective of those on the other side of this (ie black men in particular), no police officer is safe for them. Yes, it was just murdering innocent people, but not for no reason. It's out of fear for their lives.

Ok so it is for a reason. Just not a very good reason. I guess I could see why a Frenchman might think there is a reason to storm into a Mosque just start mowing down Muslims out of fear, but there is not going to be much sympathy from me on that.

QuoteI just read a Facebook message from a white woman who works at a police department. An older black man - in his 50s - walked into the police department with his hands up. He said, "I'm just lost. I just need directions. I don't want any trouble. Can you just tell me where..."

Well that is pretty much how I respond in interactions with the police. I have been reading about police shootings for 20 years. One rule I have always preached and been told 'keep your hands where they can see them'

QuoteHands up into a police department to ask for directions. And as we've seen in North Miami, that's not even enough.

Well we have to have police. We cannot clear them all off the streets, so starting to shoot them all is probably not going to accomplish anything but lead to even more Miamis. Sort of like how mowing down a Mosque is probably not going to increase the safety of Frenchmen.

QuoteI'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

I am glad you are angry about this. I have been wanting people to be angry about this for decades. Welcome to the party.

There ARE cops reaching out. There ARE very good departments out there. And they are constantly posting goodwill shit all over social media in a desperate attempt to combat this dangerous image.  But there is no national cop organization, they are local. And in any case that is not going to do any good.

The problem is decades of counter-productive policies, training, and incentives typically as a result of the war on drugs that have gotten us to where we are (or rather where we have been for awhile). Those policies need to be reversed and very public and conscientious investigations of all shootings needs to occur. A shooting, no matter how justified, cannot be an internal matter. It is too socially destabilizing to not do that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

That's a bit of a generalization.  From what I have gathered, the Dallas PD had been doing a hell of a lot of community outreach.  Which made it particularly painful that they got hit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

Why does every white Democratic woman engage in hysterical rhetoric that lumps all police together?

Hysterical? Really? Oh, sorry. I forgot. I have boobs and a vagina, ergo everything that I say is hysterical rhetoric.

By the way, to throw this out there so we both know where we stand, you'll respond and say something you consider clever and witty, and I'll ignore it and you. Because you're neither clever nor witty, as can be seen by the above comment, and there's no value in engaging you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:39:55 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

That's a bit of a generalization.  From what I have gathered, the Dallas PD had been doing a hell of a lot of community outreach.  Which made it particularly painful that they got hit.

Yep. Because of how the police are run it is not an evenly distributed problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:40:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2016, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:16:23 AM
And as I said, I don't condone it. I don't want it happening. I don't want anyone else to die.

But I understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause someone to go that route.

Do you understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause some cops to go the route they have?

Absolutely. But one of these two have sworn to protect and serve. They've been given carte blanche to carry a gun - and to use it. So while the police have every right to be angry, afraid, and to hate those killing them, they have a legal and moral responsibility to step up and make changes that diffuses the situation. That's their job.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 11:40:58 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
From the perspective of those on the other side of this (ie black men in particular), no police officer is safe for them. Yes, it was just murdering innocent people, but not for no reason. It's out of fear for their lives.

Wait, are you saying the cop murderers in Dallas and Baton Rouge did so because they feared for their lives?  Seems pretty clear to me they did so out of pure revenge.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 11:40:58 AM
Wait, are you saying the cop murderers in Dallas and Baton Rouge did so because they feared for their lives?  Seems pretty clear to me they did so out of pure revenge.

Yeah those two bastards sought out police and shot them, it was not fear/passion in the moment type deal. They were mentally disturbed psychos.

But it does show some of the destabilizing effects of not handling this issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:47:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:26:54 AM
I am glad you are angry about this. I have been wanting people to be angry about this for decades. Welcome to the party.

Sweetie, I've been on this jag since before you could legally vote. Hell, probably since before you were out of elementary school. Don't think this is new for me just because I'm just now voicing it here.

QuoteThere ARE cops reaching out. There ARE very good departments out there. And they are constantly posting goodwill shit all over social media in a desperate attempt to combat this dangerous image.  But there is no national cop organization, they are local. And in any case that is not going to do any good.

The problem is decades of counter-productive policies, training, and incentives typically as a result of the war on drugs that have gotten us to where we are (or rather where we have been for awhile). Those policies need to be reversed and very public and conscientious investigations of all shootings needs to occur. A shooting, no matter how justified, cannot be an internal matter. It is too socially destabilizing to not do that.

And this is where the problem lies. THIS is where the police need to step up - and out - to make changes. And where it's not happening. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I said "What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists." By refusing to step out of the way, by refusing to have an unaffiliated third-party to look into these shootings (see Freddie Gray), these departments are refusing to acknowledge their culpability in the situation.

Edit: I meant unaffiliated third-party.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

That's a bit of a generalization.  From what I have gathered, the Dallas PD had been doing a hell of a lot of community outreach.  Which made it particularly painful that they got hit.

Yeah, I read that, too. And they have, by all accounts, done a fantastic job with turning around the perception of their force because of it. From what I've read, they are sort of the poster children of how to handle all of this better.

So yes, you're right. That was a generalization.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:52:32 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:47:40 AM

Sweetie, I've been on this jag since before you could legally vote. Hell, probably since before you were out of elementary school. Don't think this is new for me just because I'm just now voicing it here.

Ok then. :)

Quote
And this is where the problem lies. THIS is where the police need to step up - and out - to make changes. And where it's not happening. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I said "What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists." By refusing to step out of the way, by refusing to have an affiliated third-party to look into these shootings (see Freddie Gray), these departments are refusing to acknowledge their culpability in the situation.

Yeah. The politicians and the voters will have to make it priority where the departments are not doing it themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 21, 2016, 11:40:58 AM
Wait, are you saying the cop murderers in Dallas and Baton Rouge did so because they feared for their lives?  Seems pretty clear to me they did so out of pure revenge.

Yeah those two bastards sought out police and shot them, it was not fear/passion in the moment type deal. They were mentally disturbed psychos.

But it does show some of the destabilizing effects of not handling this issue.

I'm not saying that those two men did what they did because they feared for their lives. I'm saying that anyone could do what they did because they're tired of fearing for their lives. Not self-defense, but rather frustration at a system that obviously doesn't consider them on an equal footing with the rest of the country.

And Valmy has it right. At a certain point, something has to give. Things just can't keep going like this, or it's going to get worse for everyone across the board. Good police officers are dying alongside good citizens.

The difference is where the responsibility lies to make it better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on July 21, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 08:30:47 AM
As a Twitter user said, "He was non-threatening, complied with every order, and told the officers exactly what was going on... and he still got shot. What's your excuse this time?"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/21/fla-man-says-his-hands-were-up-when-police-shot-him/87377306/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/21/fla-man-says-his-hands-were-up-when-police-shot-him/87377306/)

QuoteA black Florida man trying to calm his patient with autism was shot by a police officer Monday, despite having his hands in the air, he said Wednesday.

North Miami Assistant Police Chief Neal Cuevas said the incident happened when officers responded to a call that a man with a gun was walking around threatening to shoot himself, the Miami Herald reported. Charles Kinsey, a behavioral therapist, told WSVN-TV that the man police were searching for was his patient, who had escaped from a nearby group home, and the gun was actually a toy truck.

In cell phone video of the incident, Kinsey, 47, is seen laying on the ground with his hands in the air.

In the video, he repeatedly assures police the young man does not have a gun.

"All he has is a toy truck in his hands," Kinsey said in the video. "I am a behavior therapist at a group home."

Throughout the incident, Kinsey's patient refused to comply with police and lay down, although Kinsey encouraged him to follow the officers' directions.

"Rinaldo, please be still," he said in the clip. "Sit down Rinaldo. Lay on your stomach."

Kinsey told WSVN-TV, during the incident he was more worried about the patient than himself.

"I was thinking as long as I have my hands up ... they're not going to shoot me," he told the station, from his hospital bed.

Kinsey said moments later he was shot in the leg, and then handcuffed while the officers waited for medics to arrive.

I wonder if Officer Dumbshit was actually trying to shoot the obviously handicapped person sitting there with a toy truck, but sucked so bad he hit the guy next to him instead. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 12:25:12 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 21, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
I wonder if Officer Dumbshit was actually trying to shoot the obviously handicapped person sitting there with a toy truck, but sucked so bad he hit the guy next to him instead.

That question came up. He clearly was a lousy shot, since he shot three times and only managed to leg the obviously non-threatening guy on the ground.

Of course, the autistic guy was white, so....  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 21, 2016, 12:26:01 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2016, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:16:23 AM
And as I said, I don't condone it. I don't want it happening. I don't want anyone else to die.

But I understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause someone to go that route.

Do you understand the anger, fear, and hatred that can cause some cops to go the route they have?

That's fine but,  fury, terror and loathing for blacks should be done off the clock and not on government time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 12:26:02 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

Why does every white Democratic woman engage in hysterical rhetoric that lumps all police together?

Hysterical? Really? Oh, sorry. I forgot. I have boobs and a vagina, ergo everything that I say is hysterical rhetoric.

By the way, to throw this out there so we both know where we stand, you'll respond and say something you consider clever and witty, and I'll ignore it and you. Because you're neither clever nor witty, as can be seen by the above comment, and there's no value in engaging you.

:lol:  I think that everyone but you (and maybe Raz) saw the deliberate absurdity of my statement (and thus the unknowing absurdity of yours).

Please, don't engage with me.  I am just making fun of your silly statements, not making conversation with you.  There is no value in 'conversing' with you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 12:27:02 PM
Yeah I figured grumbler was being ironic. Like rain on your....nevermind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:52:32 AM
Yeah. The politicians and the voters will have to make it priority where the departments are not doing it themselves.

I agree with this, but think that this will cost a lot more than most people are currently aware of.  What this really means is a lot more training (and a lot more washing out of those emotionally/temperamentally unsuited to wear a badge and a gun) and that means a lot more money.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 21, 2016, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 12:26:02 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
I'm angry for them. I'm furious on their behalf. What are the police doing to combat this image? What are police doing to help bridge this gap? How are they reaching out, helping, being part of the solution? By denying that it even exists.

Why does every white Democratic woman engage in hysterical rhetoric that lumps all police together?

Hysterical? Really? Oh, sorry. I forgot. I have boobs and a vagina, ergo everything that I say is hysterical rhetoric.

By the way, to throw this out there so we both know where we stand, you'll respond and say something you consider clever and witty, and I'll ignore it and you. Because you're neither clever nor witty, as can be seen by the above comment, and there's no value in engaging you.

:lol:  I think that everyone but you (and maybe Raz) saw the deliberate absurdity of my statement (and thus the unknowing absurdity of yours).

Please, don't engage with me.  I am just making fun of your silly statements, not making conversation with you.  There is no value in 'conversing' with you.

Most of your statement are absurd...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2016, 01:15:46 PM
Most of your base are belong to us.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on July 21, 2016, 02:22:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 21, 2016, 11:52:32 AM
Yeah. The politicians and the voters will have to make it priority where the departments are not doing it themselves.

I agree with this, but think that this will cost a lot more than most people are currently aware of.  What this really means is a lot more training (and a lot more washing out of those emotionally/temperamentally unsuited to wear a badge and a gun) and that means a lot more money.

I agree, but I do question our ability to successfully completely screen out those unsuited to be police officers.  It seems to me that it's hard to tell ahead of time just how someone will react under stress.  I'm not saying that we can't do a better job, but some folks are going to seem fine until it matters.

And when someone does demonstrate that they can't handle it, we need a way to remove them from the position without necessarily criminally prosecuting them.  Simply being unfit for the job shouldn't be a crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 21, 2016, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: dps on July 21, 2016, 02:22:26 PM
I agree, but I do question our ability to successfully completely screen out those unsuited to be police officers.  It seems to me that it's hard to tell ahead of time just how someone will react under stress.  I'm not saying that we can't do a better job, but some folks are going to seem fine until it matters.

And when someone does demonstrate that they can't handle it, we need a way to remove them from the position without necessarily criminally prosecuting them.  Simply being unfit for the job shouldn't be a crime.

Agreed.  If it was easy, they'd have done it by now, I reckon.  Still, many Euro countries seem to have a better system for police training.  We had this discussion here a year or so ago.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 21, 2016, 03:26:48 PM
Well the "good" news is that the cop was trying to shoot the autistic kid with the toy truck and missed.

The bad news is that the cop was trying to shoot the autistic kid with the toy truck and missed.

https://twitter.com/ChuckRabin/status/756205074548924417
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 21, 2016, 05:35:57 PM
that makes more sense, if the autistic man (he was 23 years old) was sperging out at the time
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 21, 2016, 06:04:50 PM
But the kids wasn't, at least on the video.

Also if he was shooting at the kid, why did he stop firing before he shot the kid and why did they then handcuff the bleeding black dude?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on July 21, 2016, 06:06:03 PM
Oh yeah, and why the fuck would you shoot an unarmed autistic kid, even if he was "sperging out at the time"?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:11:06 PM
Could be shooting for the moon or at fish in a barrel as far as I'm concerned;  still doesn't change the fact that there was no reason to employ deadly force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:12:34 PM
Quote from: dps on July 21, 2016, 02:22:26 PM
I agree, but I do question our ability to successfully completely screen out those unsuited to be police officers.  It seems to me that it's hard to tell ahead of time just how someone will react under stress.  I'm not saying that we can't do a better job, but some folks are going to seem fine until it matters.

And when someone does demonstrate that they can't handle it, we need a way to remove them from the position without necessarily criminally prosecuting them.  Simply being unfit for the job shouldn't be a crime.

The only thing more difficult than finding suitable candidates are trying to fire unsuitable officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 21, 2016, 06:26:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:12:34 PM
Quote from: dps on July 21, 2016, 02:22:26 PM
I agree, but I do question our ability to successfully completely screen out those unsuited to be police officers.  It seems to me that it's hard to tell ahead of time just how someone will react under stress.  I'm not saying that we can't do a better job, but some folks are going to seem fine until it matters.

And when someone does demonstrate that they can't handle it, we need a way to remove them from the position without necessarily criminally prosecuting them.  Simply being unfit for the job shouldn't be a crime.

The only thing more difficult than finding suitable candidates are trying to fire unsuitable officers.

Once they're past their probation, yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 21, 2016, 06:26:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:12:34 PM
The only thing more difficult than finding suitable candidates is trying to fire unsuitable officers.

Once they're past their probation, yes.

Well yes, but that would've fucked up the tempo and symmetry of my sentence, but thank you anyway, Officer Rain Man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 21, 2016, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 21, 2016, 06:26:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2016, 06:12:34 PM
The only thing more difficult than finding suitable candidates is trying to fire unsuitable officers.

Once they're past their probation, yes.

Well yes, but that would've fucked up the tempo and symmetry of my sentence, but thank you anyway, Officer Rain Man.
My pleasure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: LaCroix on July 21, 2016, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2016, 06:06:03 PM
Oh yeah, and why the fuck would you shoot an unarmed autistic kid, even if he was "sperging out at the time"?

he was holding a toy truck, right?  :P

I haven't seen the video, and I wasn't condoning the cop's actions. I meant it makes more sense than the original story of a cop targeting a guy whose arms are out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 08:21:13 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 21, 2016, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2016, 06:06:03 PM
Oh yeah, and why the fuck would you shoot an unarmed autistic kid, even if he was "sperging out at the time"?

he was holding a toy truck, right?  :P

I haven't seen the video, and I wasn't condoning the cop's actions. I meant it makes more sense than the original story of a cop targeting a guy whose arms are out.

The black guy laying on the street with his hands up is screaming, "I work at the home down the street. Please don't shoot. I'm here to help him. HE HAS A TOY TRUCK IN HIS HANDS. THAT'S JUST A TOY TRUCK. THERE ISN'T A WEAPON."

Should have clued the cops in that this wasn't at all what was called in. And as a former EMT, I can assure you that things are rarely the same on-scene as they are in the 911 call. I would guess that's pretty much the same for cops as it is for fire and ambulance. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 21, 2016, 09:45:19 PM
Quote

CNN)When the suspicious device landed in his New York police car, Sgt. Hameed Armani thought he was about to die.

The object made a clicking noise. Lights from the device started flashing.

"Boss, this is a bomb," his partner, Officer Peter Cybulski, said from the passenger seat.           
The horror couldn't have come at a worse place. The officers' patrol car was parked in Times Square, which was packed with tourists and locals Wednesday night.


http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/us/new-york-columbus-circle-investigation/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:27:57 PM
QuoteOn Thursday morning, police stopped a man suspected of throwing the device into the police car.
The suspect, identified as 52-year-old Hector Meneses, was in a Gold SUV in Columbus Circle. He told officers he had a bomb strapped to his chest and wanted to die, said NYPD Chief of Manhattan Detectives William Aubry.

I understand wanting to die. I even understand being afraid of actually killing yourself. But suicide by cop is probably one of the absolute worst things you could do. ESPECIALLY right now....
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:50:49 PM
No shooting, but certainly some "violent tendencies" are shown by the officer in question.

http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/violent-arrest-of-teacher-caught-on-video-officers/nr3W6/ (http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/violent-arrest-of-teacher-caught-on-video-officers/nr3W6/)

QuoteOfficials are investigating an Austin police officer's violent arrest of an African-American elementary school teacher who was twice thrown to the ground during a traffic stop for speeding and comments by a second officer who told her police are sometimes wary of blacks because of their "violent tendencies."

Video from the previously unreported June 2015 incident was obtained by the American-Statesman and KVUE-TV this week. The video shows the traffic stop escalating rapidly in the seven seconds from when officer Bryan Richter, who is white, first gives a command to 26-year-old Breaion King to close her car door to when he forcibly removes her from the driver's seat, pulls her across a vacant parking space and hurls her to the asphalt.

Richter wrote in his report of the incident that he acted quickly because King demonstrated an "uncooperative attitude" and was "reaching for the front passenger side of the vehicle." He didn't know whether she had a weapon, he wrote. He said King resisted by pulling away from him and wrapping her hands and arms around the steering wheel.

Police charged King with resisting arrest, but the Travis County attorney dismissed the case after reviewing the police dashcam video.

As King was being driven to jail, a separate police video recorded a conversation between King and officer Patrick Spradlin in which he said whites may be concerned about interacting with blacks because they can appear "intimidating."

The Austin Police Department issued the lowest level of discipline to Richter — counseling and additional training — after Richter's supervisors looked into his use of force, but his conduct was never formally investigated by internal affairs. Spradlin was not punished for his comments because the department only learned about them after the Statesman began inquiring.

In an interview this week, Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said the department has opened an administrative review into how Richter's supervisors evaluated his actions and a separate criminal investigation. Officials are also investigating Spradlin's comments. But Acevedo said that, under state civil service law, he cannot take disciplinary action beyond a written reprimand against the officers for this incident because it happened more than six months ago.

"After reviewing both videos, I and our leadership team were highly disturbed and disappointed in both the way Ms. King was approached and handled and in the mindset that we saw on display in those videos," Acevedo said. "But there is another piece, which has caused concerns as to our review process and the systems we have in place."

He said he regrets that he didn't know about the situation sooner and that he is taking renewed steps to help citizens learn how to respond when they feel mistreated by officers.

"We need to help our community overcome the fear or reluctance, which I understand, to file a complaint," he said. "This is critical if we are to weed out bad officers and bad behavior."

Neither officer has previous suspensions with the department.

A year later, public scrutiny

The 2015 case had received no outside scrutiny until prosecutors flagged it in recent weeks.

Travis County Attorney David Escamilla said he ordered a resisting arrest charge against King immediately dropped — King paid a $165 fine and court costs for speeding — once he reviewed the videos earlier this year and sent it to felony prosecutors to review Richter's actions.

Travis County District Attorney Rosemary Lehmberg said her office viewed the video about two weeks ago and asked the Austin police Special Investigations Unit, which looks into cases of possible officer misconduct, to assist them. Lehmberg said the case likely will be presented to a grand jury.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2016, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 08:21:13 PM
Should have clued the cops in that this wasn't at all what was called in. And as a former EMT, I can assure you that things are rarely the same on-scene as they are in the 911 call. I would guess that's pretty much the same for cops as it is for fire and ambulance. :P

As a member of Languish, however, I can completely understand the desire to use deadly force on Assburgers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2016, 06:07:09 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 21, 2016, 11:50:49 PM
Richter wrote in his report of the incident that he acted quickly because King demonstrated an "uncooperative attitude" and was "reaching for the front passenger side of the vehicle." He didn't know whether she had a weapon, he wrote. He said King resisted by pulling away from him and wrapping her hands and arms around the steering wheel.

Not illegal.

QuoteTravis County District Attorney Rosemary Lehmberg said her office viewed the video about two weeks ago and asked the Austin police Special Investigations Unit, which looks into cases of possible officer misconduct, to assist them. Lehmberg said the case likely will be presented to a grand jury.

Where nothing will happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 22, 2016, 07:26:06 AM
Something better damn well happen or there will be hell to pay.

QuoteNot illegal.

True. Which was why the charges were dropped.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2016, 09:36:42 AM
Save it, SXSW; Austin or no, it's Texas, they're cops and she's black. Nothing will happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 27, 2016, 02:09:46 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 20, 2016, 08:55:25 PM
Meh, money's already been spent.  Might as well finish the rest. 

Aaand remaining charges dropped: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-miller-pretrial-motions-20160727-story.html

Btw is Ms. Mosby able to speak without yelling?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 27, 2016, 02:20:00 PM
I don't know; are you able to post without smirking over dead niggers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on July 27, 2016, 02:26:34 PM
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 04, 2016, 07:11:44 PM
Finally we see some consequences.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/08/why_mormons_don_t_like_donald_trump.html

QuoteConvicted in Shooting Death of Black 18-Year-Old

By Leon Neyfakh

Thursday has been a good day for police reform advocates who believe cops too often get away with using deadly force when they don't need to. In Baltimore, an officer was convicted of assault for wounding an unarmed burglary suspect by shooting him in the groin after he'd already been incapacitated. Now comes word from Virginia that a Portsmouth officer has been convicted of voluntary manslaughter for killing an unarmed 18-year-old during a confrontation in a shopping center parking lot.

The now-fired Portsmouth officer, Stephen Rankin, approached William Chapman in April of last year while investigating a shoplifting incident at Walmart. Testifying during his trial, Rankin told the jury that he had placed Chapman on the hood of his patrol car before trying unsuccessfully to incapacitate him with a Taser. According to Rankin, Chapman, who was black, knocked the Taser out of his hand and came towards him "aggressively" while saying, "Shoot me, motherfucker, shoot me." Rankin said he opened fire on Chapman because he believed Chapman was about to kill him. "I felt I needed to save my life," he said.

According to the Guardian, which reported last year that Rankin had previously been barred from street patrol for almost three years for shooting another unarmed man, prosecutors pressed Rankin on why he resorted to deadly force instead of attempting to deescalate or regain control of the situation in some other way. From the Guardian:

Asked why he chose not to try to physically tackle Chapman, Rankin, a US navy veteran who was trained in mixed martial arts, said he "wouldn't have been able to win an unarmed fight" against the 18-year-old. "This is as dangerous as things get out there," he said of their confrontation.


Rankin was sentenced to 2.5 years in prison. According to the Guardian, "it remains unclear what, if anything, Chapman stole from the Walmart."


http://pilotonline.com/news/local/crime/former-portsmouth-police-officer-stephen-rankin-guilty-of-voluntary-manslaughter/article_029428c3-d045-5827-bdbd-ce9f6acfb733.html

QuoteFormer Portsmouth Officer Stephen Rankin guilty; jury recommends 2½ years for voluntary manslaughter

By Scott Daugherty
The Virginian-Pilot

PORTSMOUTH

A former police officer was convicted Thursday on one count of voluntary manslaughter, and the jury recommended a sentence of 2½ years in the fatal shooting of an unarmed man in a Wal-Mart parking lot.

Prosecutors asked for Stephen Rankin, 36, to serve the maximum 10 years for killing 18-year-old William Chapman II. The defense asked for no jail time.


The judge set sentencing for Oct. 12, and until that time, Rankin will be allowed to remain free on bond.

After hearing the verdict, the mother of the victim broke into tears – unhappy with the decision not to convict Rankin of first-degree murder. And after hearing the sentence, she said it was "not enough."

Earl Lewis, a family spokesman, praised the verdict as a turning point in the national Black Lives Matter movement, though.

"We had to start somewhere," said Lewis, a cousin of Chapman. "This was the beginning."

He also tried to remain upbeat regarding the sentence. No, Rankin wasn't led away in handcuffs. But, Lewis said, "he's going to be in handcuffs sooner or later."

Rankin shot and killed William Chapman II on April 22, 2015, in the parking lot of the Wal-Mart off Frederick Boulevard.

According to court testimony, Rankin was investigating a shoplifting report when he approached Chapman. An altercation ensued, and Chapman knocked Rankin's Taser out of his hand.

Some witnesses said Chapman charged Rankin before the shooting. Another said he simply made a jab step toward the officer, as if he was trying to make him flinch.

Rankin responded with two shots, striking Chapman in the chest and the face.

During the punishment phase of the trial, prosecutors called Lewis to testify about Chapman's life and character. The military veteran said he saw a lot of himself in his cousin. He said Chapman planned to get his GED and enlist in the military himself.

The defense called two police officers to testify on Rankin's behalf, including one who was black. The officers praised Rankin as professional and a "great individual." One said Rankin served as the master of ceremonies for his wedding.

Rankin took the stand again, too. He described the shooting as a "terrible tragedy" and said he wished it had never happened.

Prosecutors initially sought to convict Rankin on charges of first-degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

Still, Rankin is only the 13th officer to be convicted of murder or manslaughter in a jury trial since 2005, according to research by Philip Stinson, an associate professor of criminal justice at Bowling Green State University.

He was one of only 74 officers to face such a charge during that time, per Stinson.

Rankin also shot and killed an unarmed white man in 2011, while responding to a burglary call in Olde Towne. A grand jury cleared him of criminal wrongdoing in the death of Kirill Denyakin, though, and Circuit Judge Johnny Morrison barred the prosecution from telling the jury about that shooting.

Rankin is expected to appeal the verdict. His defense attorneys have been laying groundwork for months.

Possible targets for appeal: Morrison barred defense attorneys from telling the jury about Chapman's juvenile record and from calling an expert witness to testify on police use-of-force policies. The judge also denied a defense request to postpone the trial in light of recent high-profile shootings of and by police and a request to declare a mistrial because a Chapman supporter spoke with a juror during deliberations.

The jury that decided the case was made up of seven women and five men. Eight are black, and four are white.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 04, 2016, 07:36:33 PM
QuoteAfter officer shoots suicidal teen, police find an apology note addressed to them
Post Nation
The Washington Post
by Cleve R. Wootson, Jr
August 2

A few minutes before he picked up the phone and dialed 911, 18-year-old Limichael Shine penned an apology note to the officer that was about to be enlisted in his suicide plan.

"In the note, Mr. Shine wrote that his goal was to commit suicide by officer," according to a news release from the Ocean County, N.J., prosecutor's office. "He apologizes to the officer who will ultimately respond to his call."

About 1:50 p.m. Sunday, Shine was at a house that he helped his mother clean as part of her housekeeping business. He called 911, saying he was suicidal and wanted an officer to come to the home on Robin Street in Manchester Townshship, N.J., about 30 miles southeast of Trenton.

The officers who arrived encountered the 18-year-old holding a large knife, prosecutors said. When he saw the officers, he began walking toward them, telling them to shoot him.

"The Officers gave Mr. Shine commands to relax, surrender and to drop his weapon," the prosecutor's news release said.

But Shine continued to advance — and an officer fired one shot.

The officers gave first aid to Shine in the driveway of the home, but he was later pronounced dead at a hospital.

During the investigation, detectives recovered the knife and the note.

Police and prosecutors have not released the name of the officers who responded to the scene or who fired the fatal shot. It was unclear whether they were suspended pending the result of an investigation.

    Rest in peace Limichael shine God knows why this has to happen to the good people

    — Dom (@DominickCifelli) August 2, 2016

Nancy Festa, who lives next to the home where police shot Shine, told the Asbury Park Press that she didn't hear the shooting but saw the aftermath.

She said she saw ambulances, police cars and red crime-scene tape strung across her front yard and recalled Shine's mother at the scene, crying out to police: "I want to see him. I want to see him now."

"She was very upset," Festa told the newspaper. "Yeah, I would've been, too. I feel bad for the mother, I really do."

According to his Facebook page, Shine was originally from Rahway, N.J., and went to Toms River High School North. It was unclear whether police officers had ever had any dealings with him before.

Although no one keeps specific numbers of so-called "suicides by cop," a 2014 report by the National Sheriffs' Association estimated that a third of police shootings fall into that category:

    Studies suggest that approximately one-third of the shootings by law enforcement officers results from the victim attempting to commit "suicide-by-cop."  The transfer of responsibility for persons with mental illness from mental health professionals to law enforcement officers is both illogical and unfair and harms both the patients and the officers.

The shootings are also difficult to prevent. Officers called to the scene typically have no idea they've been enlisted to be someone's executioner, according to the FBI. The suicidal person an officer may encounter may have done extensive planning, and even practiced, according to a bulletin by the FBI:

    Suicide by cop situations are more intense than other suicide calls. All parties are armed, or the victim appears to be armed. The individual is active, rather than passive, and aggressive toward police or others. ...Theoretically, suicides are preventable; however, realistically they may not be avoidable because of the nature of the plan or the point where first responders encounter the suicidal individual. [Suicide by cop] often is unpreventable. This must be considered in the aftermath regarding the officers who were coerced to be the unwilling means.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 10, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/

Now that's taking method acting a little too far.  How many gross violations of safety and common sense do we have here?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 10, 2016, 10:11:15 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/

Now that's taking method acting a little too far.  How many gross violations of safety and common sense do we have here?

:blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 10, 2016, 10:25:06 AM
There was an officer involved shooting in Cincy last week where the assailant had robbed a grocery store, threatened employees, and was charging at the police officer with a knife.

BLM and other advocacy groups keep looking for an angle to criticize the CPD, though.  Can't pass up an opportunity for grievances, rage, etc.  I've heard that the officer "escalated the situation" by drawing his weapon when he saw the assailant brandishing a knife, and that he "should have stayed in his vehicle with the window rolled up" which supposedly would have resolved the situation.  Also the assailant was mentally ill, so there's probably something the CPD should have done to get him his meds before the incident occurred.

These groups hurt their stated cause when they engage in this sort of silliness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on August 10, 2016, 11:14:30 AM
What is the deal with this DoJ report on the Baltimore PD?  I've only seen a bunch of snippets on twitter but it sounds like some ugly stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 10, 2016, 11:20:20 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2016, 10:25:06 AM

These groups hurt their stated cause when they engage in this sort of silliness.

This has been the challenge of BLM since the beginning. They let too many other things get in the way of what should be their aim. And I don't mean in the sense they will offend Whitey or whatever but they let themselves be hijacked by all sorts of grievances and lose focus and credibility.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 10, 2016, 11:57:32 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2016, 10:25:06 AM
There was an officer involved shooting in Cincy last week where the assailant had robbed a grocery store, threatened employees, and was charging at the police officer with a knife.

BLM and other advocacy groups keep looking for an angle to criticize the CPD, though.  Can't pass up an opportunity for grievances, rage, etc.  I've heard that the officer "escalated the situation" by drawing his weapon when he saw the assailant brandishing a knife, and that he "should have stayed in his vehicle with the window rolled up" which supposedly would have resolved the situation.  Also the assailant was mentally ill, so there's probably something the CPD should have done to get him his meds before the incident occurred.

These groups hurt their stated cause when they engage in this sort of silliness.

Meh, stupid people are stupid.  If the cops hadn't been stupid enough to kill 12-year-old kids within 2 seconds of arriving on-scene, or to start murdering people and then planting evidence on them while being videotaped, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided.  Instead, we now have to listen to idiots on both the left and the right ignore evidence in favor of silliness.  And we can't just say 'a pox on both of their houses" because both sides need to be involved in a solution to this pressing problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 10, 2016, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 10, 2016, 11:20:20 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2016, 10:25:06 AM

These groups hurt their stated cause when they engage in this sort of silliness.

This has been the challenge of BLM since the beginning. They let too many other things get in the way of what should be their aim. And I don't mean in the sense they will offend Whitey or whatever but they let themselves be hijacked by all sorts of grievances and lose focus and credibility.

Pretty much any popular movement like BLM or OWS will get hijacked at some point.  The question is whether BLM have leaders that can get them back on track, or will they end up just dissipating their followers' dedication like OWS did.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on August 10, 2016, 12:52:57 PM
Quote from: sbr on August 10, 2016, 11:14:30 AM
What is the deal with this DoJ report on the Baltimore PD?  I've only seen a bunch of snippets on twitter but it sounds like some ugly stuff.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/08/10/the-justice-departments-stunning-report-on-the-baltimore-police-department/?utm_term=.2c53f61cd5dc

Quote"BPD's legacy of zero tolerance enforcement continues to drive its policing in certain Baltimore neighborhoods and leads to unconstitutional stops, searches, and arrests. Many BPD supervisors instruct officers to make frequent stops and arrests—even for minor offenses and with minimal or no suspicion—without sufficient consideration of whether this enforcement strategy promotes public safety and community trust or conforms to constitutional standards."

"BPD's pedestrian stops are concentrated on a small portion of Baltimore residents. BPD made roughly 44 percent of its stops in two small, predominantly African-American districts that contain only 11 percent of the City's population. Consequently, hundreds of individuals—nearly all of them African American—were stopped on at least 10 separate occasions from 2010– 2015. Indeed, seven African-American men were stopped more than 30 times during this period."

"Our review of incident reports and interviews with officers and community members found that officers regularly approach individuals standing or walking on City sidewalks to detain and question them and check for outstanding warrants, despite lacking reasonable suspicion to do so. Only 3.7 percent of pedestrian stops resulted in officers issuing a citation or making an arrest."

"We likewise found many instances in which officers strip search individuals without legal justification. In some cases, officers performed degrading strip searches in public, prior to making an arrest, and without grounds to believe that the searched individuals were concealing contraband on their bodies."

"Arrests without probable cause: from 2010–2015, supervisors at Baltimore's Central Booking and local prosecutors rejected over 11,000 charges made by BPD officers because they lacked probable cause or otherwise did not merit prosecution. Our review of incident reports describing warrantless arrests likewise found many examples of officers making unjustified arrests."

"While the Constitution requires individuals to receive pre-arrest notice of the specific conduct prohibited as loitering or trespassing, BPD officers approach individuals standing lawfully on sidewalks in front of public housing complexes or private businesses and arrest them unless the individuals are able to "justify" their presence to the officers' satisfaction."

"BPD uses overly aggressive tactics that unnecessarily escalate encounters, increase tensions, and lead to unnecessary force, and fails to de-escalate encounters when it would be reasonable to do so."

"BPD uses excessive force against individuals with mental health disabilities or in crisis. Due to a lack of training and improper tactics, BPD officers end up in unnecessarily violent confrontations with these vulnerable individuals."

"BPD uses unreasonable force against people who present little or no threat to officers or others. Specifically, BPD uses excessive force against (1) individuals who are already restrained and under officers' control and (2) individuals who are fleeing from officers and are not suspected of serious criminal offenses."

"Our concerns about BPD's use of excessive force are compounded by BPD's ineffective oversight of its use of force. Of the 2,818 force incidents that BPD recorded in the nearly six-year period we reviewed, BPD investigated only ten incidents based on concerns identified through its internal review. Of these ten cases, BPD found only one use of force to be excessive."

"BPD violates the First Amendment by retaliating against individuals engaged in constitutionally protected activities. Officers frequently detain and arrest members of the public for engaging in speech the officers perceive to be critical or disrespectful. And BPD officers use force against members of the public who are engaging in protected speech."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/

Now that's taking method acting a little too far.  How many gross violations of safety and common sense do we have here?

Yeah, that's pretty a obscene failure.  We always conducted "practicals" for academy classes and in-service training, but the academy staff made sure there was never a live round to be found in the complex.

Unnecessary.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 01:33:34 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2016, 10:25:06 AM
BLM and other advocacy groups keep looking for an angle to criticize the CPD, though.  Can't pass up an opportunity for grievances, rage, etc.

I know, right?  Cincinnati PD usually provides all the angles and opportunities themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: sbr on August 10, 2016, 11:14:30 AM
What is the deal with this DoJ report on the Baltimore PD?  I've only seen a bunch of snippets on twitter but it sounds like some ugly stuff.

Nothing I couldn't have told you 23 years ago on the back of a cocktail napkin, let alone the past 10 years on Languish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 10, 2016, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/

Now that's taking method acting a little too far.  How many gross violations of safety and common sense do we have here?

Yeah, that's pretty a obscene failure.  We always conducted "practicals" for academy classes and in-service training, but the academy staff made sure there was never a live round to be found in the complex.

Unnecessary.

Ouchy
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on August 10, 2016, 05:57:40 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CphJPLyWIAAryRf.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CphIPl0WEAA-BRo.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpgR_3IXgAEOT96.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpgJhicW8AAzB24.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 07:23:22 PM
Did I accidentally screw up your post, sbr?  I think I did.   :Embarrass:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on August 10, 2016, 07:30:28 PM
I don't think so, what do you think happened?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 07:45:42 PM
I have a ton of blockers on my browser, hit "Modify", not paying attention, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 07:52:27 PM
Anyway, with very little deviation, there's nothing in there that wasn't going on 20 years ago.

Quote from: Habbaku on August 10, 2016, 12:52:57 PM

***List of same shit, different decade***


I seem to recall discussing with you and Berkut about the time-honored BPD tradition of "let's fuck with people for the sake of fucking with people" a couple years ago in a Chick-fil-A at WBC.  Funny, that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on August 10, 2016, 08:00:54 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/a-terribly-devastating-event-black-man-killed-by-swat-team-was-innocent-officials-say/

Quote'A terribly devastating event': Black man killed by SWAT team was innocent, officials say

It was not yet dawn when the armored vehicles, black and hulking like Batmobiles, rumbled into the residential neighborhood in Compton, Calif. A carjacker had stolen a vehicle in Los Angeles, exchanged gunfire with sheriff's deputies and then ditched his prize, disappearing on foot into a dense patchwork quilt of pink houses.

The armored vehicles — and the heavily armed deputies inside them — were there to find and capture the armed carjacker.

Instead, they found a different black man, Donnell Thompson.

As the carjacker hid in a house several blocks away, Thompson slept in a stranger's yard. He was 27 years old but possessed the mental faculties of a much younger man. He loved Uno, Michael Jackson and the Lakers. He was so gentle and shy he went by the nickname Little Bo Peep, his family told the Los Angeles Times. He had a clean record and was unarmed.

From inside one of the armored vehicles, however, Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputies knew none of this. When Thompson didn't respond to commands, the deputies detonated flash-bangs. When he still didn't move, they hit him with foam bullets.

And when he allegedly ran toward them, a deputy atop the armored vehicle opened fire with an assault rifle, striking Thompson twice in the torso.

Thompson died. At almost the same instant, the real carjacker was arrested.

That was July 28. For almost two weeks, the Sheriff's Department insisted that Thompson was a second suspect in the carjacking.

On Tuesday, the department admitted it had killed an innocent man.

"No question this is a terribly devastating event," Capt. Steve Katz said during a news conference. He said there was "no physical evidence" connecting Thompson to the carjacking or shootout and promised a "thorough" and "complete" investigation into the shooting, according to the Associated Press.

Thompson's relatives said they wanted more than an investigation, however. They wanted charges for the deputy who killed Thompson.

"I wouldn't treat an animal this bad," his sister Matrice Stanley told the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, according to the AP. "How is this justifiable?"

The incident is the latest in a string of fatal officer-involved shootings of black men across America. As in the recent police killings of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge and Philando Castile in Falcon Heights, Minn., the shooting in Compton has prompted accusations of racial profiling and excessive force.

Stanley said she thought her brother's race played a role in the shooting.

The incident also raises questions about the militarization of law enforcement, as departments across the country increasingly use armored vehicles and assault rifles to fight crime.

"In a civilian neighborhood, they bring an urban assault vehicle," Brian Dunn, an attorney representing the Thompson family, told the Huffington Post. "The BearCat, it's like a tank. Their response to this situation was so aggressive. Their tactics were so aggressive."

The tragedy began in the early hours of July 28 when Robert Alexander, 24, allegedly stole a Honda Civic in Los Angeles, taking the car at gunpoint from its owner.

Fifteen miles to the south, in Compton, a sheriff's deputy later spotted the Civic traveling erratically and decided to pull it over, according to the Los Angeles Times. The license plate showed the car was stolen. As a second patrol car arrived, the Civic drove off, punching through an elementary school's fence.

As the car sped through Compton, Alexander allegedly shot at deputies, causing them to return fire. After the Civic crashed into a parked car, Alexander escaped on foot.

As he ran along Slater Street, the carjacker threatened two people on a front porch, according to the Times. He then entered the house, threw his gun under a couch, took his clothes off and climbed into a bed where an elderly woman — a complete stranger — was sleeping.

Despite the ruse, deputies found him and arrested him at 4:59 a.m.

Seconds later, a man living a few blocks away called 911. He told dispatchers he was taking out his trash when he spotted a figure lying in his front yard, the Times reported.

Although authorities already had Alexander in custody, there was confusion over whether he was the carjacker. A deputy who responded to the 911 call, meanwhile, saw that the figure in the man's front yard resembled the carjacking suspect: a black man between the ages of 20 and 30 wearing dark pants or shorts and a basketball jersey.

The deputy radioed that he had found the carjacker who had fired at police, and the armored vehicles quickly arrived.

Thompson didn't respond to commands, instead remaining motionless with one hand under his head and another concealed near his waist. An object that looked like a gun lay nearby, Katz said. When flash-bang explosives failed to wake Thompson, SWAT deputies shot him with foam bullets.

At that point, Thompson suddenly pushed himself to his feet and ran toward an armored vehicle, Katz said. An officer in the vehicle's turret shot Thompson twice in the upper torso with an M4 assault rifle, the Times reported.

Stanley, Thompson's sister, said she thought her brother didn't respond to commands because he was afraid and confused, the AP reported. She called for the deputy to be fired, questioning why he opened fire when he was protected by the armored car.

Dunn, the family attorney, accused the Sheriff's Department of "tactical blunders" and called the shooting a "mistake."

"We've done our own investigation and have not heard anything to suggest that Donnell Thompson was in any way acting in an aggressive manner or in any way demonstrating that he posed a threat to anyone," Dunn told the Huffington Post. Dunn also claimed: "He hadn't committed a crime, he was not wanted, he had not done anything wrong, he was legally authorized to be where he was, he was legally authorized to be doing what he was doing, he wasn't breaking the law and he wasn't armed ― when you take that backdrop of facts it's just not only a tragedy, but it's a homicide, in every sense of the word."

The attorney said he had filed a federal civil rights claim against Los Angeles County and was preparing to file a lawsuit as well.

Experts cautioned, however, that just because the Sheriff's Department had admitted Thompson was innocent doesn't mean the shooting will be declared unjustified.

"The commands being ignored, they used less-lethal force that was ineffective, the guy was running away. ... Those factors are very relevant in leading them to believe, 'This guy has done something wrong. This is our guy,'" Ed Obayashi, a Plumas County sheriff's deputy and attorney who advises several law enforcement agencies in the state, told the Times.

Adding to concerns over the incident, however, are two other shootings of unarmed men by the same department in the past two weeks. A homeless man was shot on Aug. 2 while running from deputies. And a man caught tagging a house with graffiti was shot while hiding in a shower. Those shootings are also under investigation, the Times reported.

But it is the death of Thompson that has stirred anger and spurred protests.

"His age was 27, but mentally ... he was probably 16," Stanley told the Times.

"He was soft-spoken. He was gentle. What was the threat?" said cousin Larmar Avila, according to the AP. "I'm upset, I'm angry, I'm passionate, I'm emotional. It's so much. All in one. And how do you expect us to act, when we're patient, and we're waiting and we're waiting. We're not going crazy. We're waiting. Patiently. Twiddling thumbs. I'm shaking. I'm scared. I'm scared for my brothers. Scared for my family members. And it shouldn't be like that."

"Black lives matter," said another sister, Antoinette Brown. "I just want justice for my baby brother."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 08:05:17 PM
QuoteThat was July 28. For almost two weeks, the Sheriff's Department insisted that Thompson was a second suspect in the carjacking.

On Tuesday, the department admitted it had killed an innocent man.


That's because, if the department admitted immediately it had killed an innocent man, shit would've burned.  This is the wrong summer for that.   So, let's lie and deny for two weeks so the darkies don't get all uppity, what with their short attention spans and all.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 10, 2016, 08:12:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 08:05:17 PM
QuoteThat was July 28. For almost two weeks, the Sheriff's Department insisted that Thompson was a second suspect in the carjacking.

On Tuesday, the department admitted it had killed an innocent man.


That's because, if the department admitted immediately it had killed an innocent man, shit would've burned.  This is the wrong summer for that.   So, let's lie and deny for two weeks so the darkies don't get all uppity, what with their short attention spans and all.

Damn it, maybe the next. Some nice flat screens nowadays.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 08:15:22 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 10, 2016, 08:12:36 PM
Damn it, maybe the next. Some nice flat screens nowadays.

Do you tuck your mullet in your uniform collar, or do you just bobbypin it up under your hat?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 10, 2016, 08:34:04 PM
 :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 08:15:22 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 10, 2016, 08:12:36 PM
Damn it, maybe the next. Some nice flat screens nowadays.

Do you tuck your mullet in your uniform collar, or do you just bobbypin it up under your hat?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on August 10, 2016, 11:16:52 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 10, 2016, 07:52:27 PM
Anyway, with very little deviation, there's nothing in there that wasn't going on 20 years ago.

Quote from: Habbaku on August 10, 2016, 12:52:57 PM

***List of same shit, different decade***


I seem to recall discussing with you and Berkut about the time-honored BPD tradition of "let's fuck with people for the sake of fucking with people" a couple years ago in a Chick-fil-A at WBC.  Funny, that.

:yes:  Not too long ago, yeah.  I recall that, and it's looking like we're just seeing more of the same. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 11, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
That guy getting killed sucks, but I don't see how you can conclude that it was racial.

If he was a white guy (with a white suspect), then I could see the exact same, fucked up, outcome.

The problem here is the militarization of the police, not *necessarily* racism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on August 12, 2016, 01:02:33 AM
A police car with a gun turret just seems bizarre to this euroweenie.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 12, 2016, 07:37:16 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 11, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
That guy getting killed sucks, but I don't see how you can conclude that it was racial.

If he was a white guy (with a white suspect), then I could see the exact same, fucked up, outcome.

The problem here is the militarization of the police, not *necessarily* racism.
Assuming the recitation of facts in the article is accurate, I don't know that I really can fault the police for what happened. It also seems fairly likely this guy would still have been shot, militarization or no.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 12, 2016, 08:46:43 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 12, 2016, 07:37:16 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 11, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
That guy getting killed sucks, but I don't see how you can conclude that it was racial.

If he was a white guy (with a white suspect), then I could see the exact same, fucked up, outcome.

The problem here is the militarization of the police, not *necessarily* racism.
Assuming the recitation of facts in the article is accurate, I don't know that I really can fault the police for what happened. It also seems fairly likely this guy would still have been shot, militarization or no.

A officer inside the turret of an armored car shot a man in the chest twice with an assault rifle. Said man was not armed.

I can certainly fault them for that. That is fucking bullshit. Was he afraid he might have an RPG hidden in his pants?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 12, 2016, 09:29:20 AM
I assume that, had the deceased been armed, there would have been some danger to other officers or members of the public (or even turret guy). 

It is interesting that you make a good case for greater militarization of the police, as decreased danger to officers would presumably result in fewer shootings in (supposed) self-defense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 12, 2016, 09:36:18 AM
Quote from: Kleves on August 12, 2016, 09:29:20 AM
I assume that, had the deceased been armed, there would have been some danger to other officers or members of the public (or even turret guy). 

Yes, had he had an RPG stuffed into his pants, there would have been some danger. Since there was no reason to think he had said RPG, we can certainly fault the officer for shooting him.

*anyone* might be armed. If that is the base metric for shooting people, we are going to be shooting a lot of people.
Quote

It is interesting that you make a good case for greater militarization of the police, as decreased danger to officers would presumably result in fewer shootings in (supposed) self-defense.

No, I don't make such a case at all. IMO, it is the militarization culture that has resulted, in some cases, of an attitude that appears to be "Shoot first, find out the threat level later".

The attitude that you are a soldier and the citizens are at least potential enemy combatants is exactly the problem. And that is accentuated by cops being equipped for and trained as essentially military personnel.

This happened because the police made an assumption about this man, and that assumption was completely wrong. They didn't stop to challenge that assumption, or consider whether their approach was appropriate given the information at hand. This entire "us versus them" attitude is what gets completely innocent people doing absolutely nothing wrong shot by the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 14, 2016, 08:16:37 AM
The deceased here was armed and had already shot at officers. He was found hiding nearby in a stranger's yard, and refused to surrender the gun he had in his waistband. Police tried multiple non-lethal techniques to get him to surrender, but he refused. He then charged at officers and was killed.

As we now know, some of the above wasn't true, but those are all things that officers very reasonably believed to be true when they confronted him. To me, this seems more a chance tragedy than an example of police militarization or racism.

In other news:
QuoteMILWAUKEE — A standoff between police and an angry crowd turned violent Saturday night in the hours after a Milwaukee police officer shot and killed an armed suspect during a foot chase.

After an hours-long confrontation with officers, police reported at 10:15 p.m. CT that a gas station was set on fire. Police said firefighters could not get close to the blaze because of gunshots.

Later, fires were started at businesses — including a BMO Harris Bank branch, a beauty supply company and O'Reilly Auto Parts stores — near N. 35th and W. Burleigh streets as scores of people gathered near the crime scene on the city's north side, a grim and emphatic Mayor Tom Barrett said at a news conference.

The mayor and Common Council President Ashanti Hamilton pleaded with the public for calm, and Barrett said there would be a strong police presence in the following days.

"Our police officers are doing everything they can to restore order," he said.

"If you love your son, if you love your daughter, text them, call them, pull them by their ears," he added. "Get them home."

Police had "shown an amazing amount of restraint," Barrett said. Some at the scene took to social media earlier Saturday night to encourage others, many of them young people, to come out and participate in what the mayor described as trouble-making. He urged parents to keep tight reins on their children to avoid a repeat of Saturday night.

Hamilton said, "Our city is in turmoil tonight."  He promised a full and open investigation into the police-involved shooting.

"When we get information, we are going to share it with the public, please allow the process to work," he said.

Turmoil erupts

Assistant Police Chief James Harpole said at least 200 people had gathered at the uprising. He said there were multiple gunshots over the course of the evening.

When the gas station was set ablaze, there were three people in the building and all got out safely, he said.

At times, those gathered pushed against a line of 20 to 30 officers, some of whom wore riot gear. Officers got in their cars to leave at one point, and some in the crowd started smashing the windows of a squad car and another vehicle, which was set on fire. As officers returned to the scene, this time many more in riot gear, gunshots could be heard about 8:45 p.m

The shots appeared to be fired in the air by someone in the crowd.

Soon after, the crowd turned on and chased reporters and a photographer from the Journal Sentinel. One reporter was shoved to the ground and punched.

Police later tweeted that an officer was hit in the head with a brick that was thrown through a squad car window. Police said the officer was being treated at a hospital.

The violence erupted not long after a woman who identified herself as a family member of the dead man implored the people to leave the scene.

"We don't want anyone else to go to jail or get hurt," she told the crowd.

Some left but many stayed as tensions built. Around 12:30 a.m. CT, Barrett said the north side of the city was starting to calm down.

A footchase, then gunshots

The shooting occurred Saturday afternoon.

City police officials said two officers stopped two suspects in a car at about 3:30 p.m. The suspects then took off on foot. During the pursuit, a six-year veteran of the department shot and killed a 23-year-old Milwaukee resident, who was carrying a semiautomatic handgun, police said.

The officer was not hurt.

Shortly after the shooting, Milwaukee Police Assistant Chief Bill Jessup said at the scene that it wasn't immediately clear whether the suspect pointed the gun or shot at the officer.

"Those additional facts will come out in the coming days," Jessup said.

City police officials have not interviewed the officer, Jessup said. That responsibility will fall to the Wisconsin Department of Criminal Investigation, which is required by state law to take over officer-involved shooting investigations.

"That officer had to make a split-second decision when the person confronted him with a handgun," Jessup said. "This is a risk they take every day on behalf of our community."

Jessup said he didn't immediately know why the officers stopped the suspects.

Police said the suspect had a "lengthy arrest record," though the specific crimes were not detailed. The suspect was carrying a handgun taken in a March burglary in Waukesha. The owner reported that 500 rounds of ammunition also were stolen.

The officer is 24 and will be placed on administrative duty during the investigation and subsequent review by the district attorney's office.

The second suspect who fled on foot, also a 23-year-old man, was apprehended and is in custody, Jessup said.

Police shooting tops off violent weekend

The shooting occurred about one block northwest of the scene of a Friday evening homicide, and about four blocks west of a Saturday morning double homicide. Five people died in shooting-related homicides during a nine-hour stretch in the city on Friday night and Saturday morning.

"As everyone knows, this was a very, very violent 24 hours in the city of Milwaukee," Jessup said. "Our officers are out here taking risks on behalf of the community and making split-second decisions."

Nefataria Gordon said she knew the man who had been killed by the officer. "He was a nice good person. He was really respected. That's why everyone came out. They're angry."

The clash comes after a series of tense episodes in Milwaukee involving residents and police, including one just before the Fourth of July weekend near Sherman Park.

In early July, a group of several dozen young people threw rocks and bottles, damaging windows of a gas station and a county transit bus near Sherman Park. Law enforcement beefed up their presence for several days there. Some activists said it was an intimidating presence. At the same time, the incidents also led to a surge in residents and local leaders promoting positive activity there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
That is awesome kleves.

As long as the officers think, based on complete assumptions that have zero evidence, that someone *might* have a gun, they are free to go ahead and shoot him a few times even before he brandishes said gun and even if they've armored themselves up enough that the gun itself is incredibly unlikely to actually be a threat to them.

The fact that a bunch of what you said is simply not true does not absolve the officers, it indicts them. The streets of American cities are not Baghdad or Fallujah where it is ok for the cops to assume that the guy they are dealing with is in fact the bad guy, even if the officers in question did not see this person do any of the things you claim. They did not see him with a gun, they did not see him fire it at anyone, and they know that what with being in the middle of a fucking city there are literally thousands of people in the immediate area who are certainly NOT the guy they are looking for - they don't get a free pass to simply assume that the guy is the bad guy and blow him away the moment he does anything they don't quite understand.

You know why? Because they are police officers, not soldiers!

Their job is to protect civilians, not shoot bad guys. They shoot bad guys when they decide that it is the ONLY way to protect civilians or themselves. Shooting civilians when you are kinda sure they are bad guys is not ok. It does not excuse them, even when the civilians don't follow their orders.

I bet you were pissed off the Arizona police officers lost his job for blowing away the poor guy trying to pull his fucking pants up in the hall.

OH WELL I TOLD HIM NOT TO PULL HIS PANTS UP! HE MIGHT HAVE HAD A GUN STUFFED IN HIS BRIEFS!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2016, 10:44:21 AM
Gotta agree with Berkut.  Even had the cops faced the situation they thought they were facing, they still wouldn't have been justified in using deadly force.   There were still other options for dealing with the situation, and law properly requires deadly force to be the last resort.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2016, 11:26:48 AM
I really can't think of an other profession in which one's duties that is as impactful as the use of deadly force can be so specifically defined one way--in your training, in your directives manual, in your agency's accreditation standards, even in the law--and yet totally redefined and practiced another way to such an extent that it is not only ignored but accepted and considered acceptable. 

Not only do they think they're not doing anything wrong, but nobody else seems to think they are, either.  And nobody cares.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on August 14, 2016, 12:19:01 PM
Yeah it's pretty crazy how the people cheering on, or at least apologizing for, the police shootings are also the same dudes that are buying guns at a record rate to protect themselves from the Forest Service or IRS.  They are so scared that the government is going to trample on them, but have no problems with other government actors being judge, jury, executioner of others.  The key being who the others are of course.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on August 14, 2016, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: sbr on August 14, 2016, 12:19:01 PM
Yeah it's pretty crazy how the people cheering on, or at least apologizing for, the police shootings are also the same dudes that are buying guns at a record rate to protect themselves from the Forest Service or IRS.  They are so scared that the government is going to trample on them, but have no problems with other government actors being judge, jury, executioner of others.  The key being who the others are of course.

i think that the key is that there's a stupid assumption that people who are shot by the police, even if they are innocent of any crime that the police were looking into at the time, are guilty of something that they deserve to be shot for, or at least are just thugs that maybe didn't do anything that would carry the death penalty, are still just scum that we're better off without.   And while that's probably true in some cases, it's clearly not always true, and even if it were true, we're supposed to have rule of law, which doesn't mean that the police are allowed to be de facto vigilantes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2016, 01:18:56 PM
Quote from: dps on August 14, 2016, 01:16:14 PM
i think that the key is that there's a stupid assumption that people who are shot by the police, even if they are innocent of any crime that the police were looking into at the time, are guilty of something that they deserve to be shot for, or at least are just thugs that maybe didn't do anything that would carry the death penalty, are still just scum that we're better off without.   And while that's probably true in some cases, it's clearly not always true, and even if it were true, we're supposed to have rule of law, which doesn't mean that the police are allowed to be de facto vigilantes.

:yes:  *If you weren't guilty, I wouldn't be pointing my gun at you right now.*

There's a lot of self-fulfilling prophecy in a lot of these stories.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kleves on August 14, 2016, 03:08:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
As long as the officers think, based on complete assumptions that have zero evidence, that someone *might* have a gun, they are free to go ahead and shoot him a few times even before he brandishes said gun and even if they've armored themselves up enough that the gun itself is incredibly unlikely to actually be a threat to them.
There's little doubt that your ability to view hindsight is 20/20.

Here's what the police knew:
- A black guy in his 20s/30s wearing dark pants and a basketball jersey had carjacked a car an gunpoint.
- When police attempted to stop him, he had fired at the police.
- Eventually he crashed his car and fled into a neighborhood.
- Inside the neighborhood that the carjacker fled, someone called police to report a black guy in his 20s/30s wearing dark pants and a basketball jersey hiding in their yard.
- When police arrived, they found the man matching the carjacker's description, with a "gun-like" object visible near at hand, and one hand tucked inside his waistband.
- Despite repeated commands, the man would not show police his hands.
- Police attempted to use flashbang grenades to induce the man to surrender, to no avail.
- Police then attempted to shot the man with foam bullets to induce him to surrender, to no avail. 

To say that, given all of this, the police had "zero evidence" this was their guy is nonsense. If you presented this to any fair-minded person, I expect they would conclude that the guy on the ground was the suspect, was very likely armed, and indeed had already attempted to shoot officers. They would likely believe that, if the guy suddenly sprang to his feet and rushed officers, he would present a serious, and likely deadly, threat. If we're willing to let police defend themselves without waiting until they're actually under fire, then I don't know how much more we can reasonable expect in this situation. It is possible that there is something to critique about the police response in this situation, but it is not the criticism you're levelling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 14, 2016, 03:24:11 PM
Hogwash

What immediate threat did the guy who was mistakenly killed, present for the officer to use deadly force. Answer equals none.

Did he have a gun in his hand, or knife, pipe, bat, no he had nothing.



Sorry they are wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 14, 2016, 03:32:26 PM
And another thing, it's stupid decision making like this that gets good cops killed in retaliation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2016, 03:51:24 PM
Quote from: Kleves on August 14, 2016, 03:08:11 PM
There's little doubt that your ability to view hindsight is 20/20.

Here's what the police knew:
- A black guy in his 20s/30s wearing dark pants and a basketball jersey had carjacked a car an gunpoint.
- When police attempted to stop him, he had fired at the police.
- Eventually he crashed his car and fled into a neighborhood.
- Inside the neighborhood that the carjacker fled, someone called police to report a black guy in his 20s/30s wearing dark pants and a basketball jersey hiding in their yard.
- When police arrived, they found the man matching the carjacker's description, with a "gun-like" object visible near at hand, and one hand tucked inside his waistband.
- Despite repeated commands, the man would not show police his hands.
- Police attempted to use flashbang grenades to induce the man to surrender, to no avail.
- Police then attempted to shot the man with foam bullets to induce him to surrender, to no avail. 

To say that, given all of this, the police had "zero evidence" this was their guy is nonsense. If you presented this to any fair-minded person, I expect they would conclude that the guy on the ground was the suspect, was very likely armed, and indeed had already attempted to shoot officers. They would likely believe that, if the guy suddenly sprang to his feet and rushed officers, he would present a serious, and likely deadly, threat. If we're willing to let police defend themselves without waiting until they're actually under fire, then I don't know how much more we can reasonable expect in this situation. It is possible that there is something to critique about the police response in this situation, but it is not the criticism you're levelling.

Your post pretty much sums up the problem:  even if the most sympathetic view is applied to the police actions, and every unknown assumed to be resolved in favor of the police, the story still comes out sounding like, at best, negligent homicide.

This story sounds disturbingly like the one from a couple of years back when some guy got killed by the police in a hotel hallway because he was crawling as ordered and his [ants started to fall down.  In that case, it was pretty clear from the vestcam videos that the killer was just looking for a reason to blow the guy away, and the first moment he thought he had an excuse, he did blow the guy away (with like five or six shots, btw, so not just an attempt to stop the guy, but to kill him).  That cop rightly went on trial for murder.

This case seems much the same: no threat to the cops (even they argued that they shot him out of fear that he would escape and harm civilians), and, when the first opportunity seemed to arrive where deadly force could be justified, they used it, regardless of the fact that less-lethal methods were available and that there was no immediate threat to anyone.  The killer, it seems to me, went into the this situation looking to shoot, just as the one a coupla years back did.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2016, 03:54:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 14, 2016, 03:32:26 PM
And another thing, it's stupid decision making like this that gets good cops killed in retaliation.

That's why police should be in the lead in condemning the mindset that leads to these kinds of shootings.  There are a lot of places that seem to be doing it right, and we almost never hear from them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 14, 2016, 04:13:48 PM
Where are the moderate police officers condemning these killings?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2016, 04:13:48 PM
Where are the moderate police officers condemning these killings?

He resigned 21 years ago.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 14, 2016, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2016, 04:13:48 PM
Where are the moderate police officers condemning these killings?

Disband the police until we figure out what is going on!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2016, 06:56:27 PM
BTW, there was no object, gun like or otherwise, near the incredibly dangerous unarmed man.

Christ, it is depressing the lengths that people will go to justify shooting people.

The cops fucked up. They assumed that "black, 20-30 year old male" is enough of a description, in Compton, CA, to positively ID some guy THEY ALREADY HAD IN CUSTODY.

This was some cop who was waiting for his chance to use his shiny M4, and he took it, and now we should probably give him a medal, according to Kleves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2016, 08:49:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2016, 06:56:27 PM
BTW, there was no object, gun like or otherwise, near the incredibly dangerous unarmed man.

Christ, it is depressing the lengths that people will go to justify shooting people.

The cops fucked up. They assumed that "black, 20-30 year old male" is enough of a description, in Compton, CA, to positively ID some guy THEY ALREADY HAD IN CUSTODY.

This was some cop who was waiting for his chance to use his shiny M4, and he took it, and now we should probably give him a medal, according to Kleves.

Apparently one of the shots hit Donnell Thompson in the back - he was "rushing" the officers with his back to them, apparently.  The more evidence we get, the more it seems that the officers involved are telling another whopper to cover up a fuckup.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 14, 2016, 11:02:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2016, 06:56:27 PM
The cops fucked up. They assumed that "black, 20-30 year old male" is enough of a description, in Compton, CA, to positively ID some guy THEY ALREADY HAD IN CUSTODY.

He was also wearing dark pants and a basketball jersey though
Surely such outlandish attire narrows it down considerably
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 18, 2016, 07:06:23 PM
Good news, but they should be charged as well

Links galore within.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/08/18/chicago_police_superintendent_calls_for_officers_who_covered_up_laquan_mcdonald.html
QuoteChicago Police Superintendent Calls for Officers Who Covered Up Laquan McDonald Shooting to Be Fired


Chicago's police superintendent on Thursday called for the city to fire seven of its officers for providing false information concerning the death of Laquan McDonald, a black teenager who was shot and killed by a white officer nearly two years ago. Technically speaking, the seven officers in question are accused of "making a false report" about the circumstances of McDonald's death, but given the video of the incident and the autopsy, a less generous description would probably involve the words lying and cover up.

Josh Voorhees is a Slate senior writer. He lives in Iowa City.

Superintendent Eddie Johnson's decision comes 22 months after Officer Jason Van Dyke unloaded 16 bullets into McDonald, and nine months after Van Dyke was charged with first-degree murder shortly before the city—under court order—released video of the shooting that contradicted Van Dyke's claim he was acting in self-defense when he opened fire.

Based on Van Dyke's version of events, which was backed up by his colleagues at the scene, authorities had quickly deemed McDonald's death a "justifiable homicide" within hours of the incident. But while the officers all told the same story, the dashcam footage ended up telling a far different one (which, if the city had its way, would have remained unknown to the public). Via the Associated Press:

Van Dyke's partner, Joseph Walsh, told an investigator that he repeatedly yelled "Drop the knife!" at McDonald and backed up as the teenager advanced at the officers. Further, he supported Van Dyke's claim saying McDonald "swung the knife toward the officers in an aggressive manner" and that he believed McDonald was "attempting to kill them."

Another wrote that, Van Dyke "in defense of his life ... backpedaled and fired his handgun at McDonald." Multiple officers wrote that even after McDonald had been shot he still posed a threat. "McDonald fell to the ground but continued to move and continued to grasp the knife, refusing to let go of it," one report reads.

In the video, however, McDonald can clearly be seen moving away from the responding officers as Van Dyke steps out of his squad car and, seconds later, opens fire. The officer continued to unload his gun even after McDonald had fallen to the ground. According to prosecutors, the 17-year-old did indeed have a knife in his possession at the time, but they say it was recovered with the three-inch blade folded into its handle.

Johnson's decision is not necessarily the end of the road for the seven officers. While the superintendent has stripped them of their police powers, he does not have the ability to unilaterally fire them. Instead, the seven will have the chance to contest his recommendation before the city's police board, a process that typically takes about seven months. Nonetheless, Thursday's announcement is being hailed by community leaders as a sign of progress—which, given Chicago's history and intractable "code of silence," is both true and depressing.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2016, 12:50:30 AM
Hang this fucker high :ultra:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-n-police-kill-unarmed-deaf-mute-man-sign-language-article-1.2760714

Quote
KING: North Carolina police kill unarmed deaf man using sign language

This is as bad as it gets.

A North Carolina state trooper shot and killed 29-year-old Daniel Harris — who was not only unarmed, but deaf — just feet from his home, over a speeding violation. According to early reports from neighbors who witnessed the shooting this past Thursday night, Harris was shot and killed "almost immediately" after exiting his vehicle.

He appeared to be trying to communicate with the officer via sign language.

"They should've de-escalated and been trained to realize that this is an entirely different situation," neighbor Mark Barringer said. "You're pulling someone over who is deaf, they are handicapped. To me, what happened is totally unacceptable."

Police claim they attempted to pull Harris over for speeding, but he continued driving home instead of pulling over. Whether Harris fully understood what was happening, since he could not have heard the sirens, is unclear. His family, including his siblings, are also deaf and could often be seen communicating with each other via sign language in the neighborhood.

An outrageous 752 people have been killed by American police so far this year. While some of the cases posed genuine risks to law enforcement, this one is hard to justify. Beyond being unarmed and deaf, Daniel Harris appears to have been a rather small, thin man. Opening fire could not have been the only option the officer had. What threat did Harris pose? Was a Taser or pepper spray used? Could the officer truly not subdue Harris on his own?

If reports from neighbors are accurate, it doesn't appear the officer even tried, but pretty much shot and killed Harris mere seconds after he got out of the car.

In a widely shared fund-raiser from the Harris family, they wrote:

"Our family is raising funds to cover his memorial and cremation expenses (details pending). Any monies left over will be used to set up a foundation in his name to educate and provide law enforcement proper training on how to confront Deaf people. Subsequently, we hope to change the DMV registration system by requiring states to set up a 'DEAF' alert to appear when law enforcement look up a car's license plate. With this change, Daniel will be a hero in our Deaf community."

Daniel's hearing impairment is no excuse for what happened. While his family is correct — police should absolutely be better trained, and license plates could and should provide smarter alerts to first responders — this case boils down to the "shoot first, ask questions later" training police are receiving all over the country. Virtually any other option the officer could've considered was better than what he chose in this case, but here we are with another avoidable casualty of police violence.

Daniel Harris should be alive with a speeding ticket, but instead his family is raising funds for his cremation.


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/north-carolina-police-shoot-dead-unarmed-deaf-man-using-sign-language-communicate-officer-1577527

QuoteNorth Carolina police shoot dead unarmed deaf man 'using sign language to communicate with officer'

An unarmed deaf and mute man has been shot by police in North Carolina after reportedly attempting to use sign language to communicate with officers. Daniel Harris, 29, was shot after being pulled over following a brief car chase just outside his home in the city of Charlotte on 18 August.

Police said they attempted to pull Harris over for allegedly speeding on the Interstate 485.

After getting out of his vehicle, there was a "brief encounter" between Harris and state trooper Jermaine Saunders, which resulted in Harris being shot and killed instantly.

Eyewitnesses to the shooting claim the father of one died "almost immediately" after getting out of his car. They say Harris was likely trying to communicate with the trooper using sign language before he was killed.

Neighbour Mark Barringer told WCNC: "They should've deescalated and been trained to realise that this is an entirely different situation, you're pulling someone over who is deaf, they are handicapped. To me, what happened is totally unacceptable."

The North Carolina Highway Patrol and the State Bureau of Investigation confirmed they have launched an investigation into the incident which will include a review of the dashboard and body cameras. Trooper Saunders has since been placed on administrative leave.

Harris's family have set up an online fundraising page to help pay for his funeral and are calling for a change in the DMV registration system, which would require US states to set up a "deaf" alert to appear when officers look up a car's license plate.

The family wrote on the YouCaring crowdfunding page: "Daniel K. Harris was unexpectedly killed in Charlotte, North Carolina on Thursday, August 18, 2016. He was unarmed when shot and killed by a state trooper. His tragic death could have been prevented. Police brutality ends NOW.

"Our family is raising funds to cover his memorial and cremation expenses. Any monies left over will be used to set up a foundation in his name to educate and provide law enforcement proper training on how to confront deaf people. With this change, Daniel will be a hero in our Deaf community."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2016, 01:19:04 AM
In more awesome violence related news, a clerk responds to a robber armed with a machete by pulling out a full length scimitar!  :menace:

https://youtu.be/gVEmOQRgqwk
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 

You know my parents gave me very specific rules with regards to the cops. No sudden moves. Keep your hands where they can see them. Stay in the car. Look straight ahead. Do whatever they tell you.

I guess I figured it was to keep from being arrested or detained.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 25, 2016, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 

You know my parents gave me very specific rules with regards to the cops. No sudden moves. Keep your hands where they can see them. Stay in the car. Look straight ahead. Do whatever they tell you.

I guess I figured it was to keep from being arrested or detained.

I got the same advice.  If I was arrested there would be all sorts of awkward questions

"why are you carrying lock picks and a loupe?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on August 25, 2016, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2016, 12:50:30 AM
KING: North Carolina police kill unarmed deaf man using sign language


Unfortunate title editing.

One wonders how exactly the cops were able to kill a person with sign language.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2016, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 

You know my parents gave me very specific rules with regards to the cops. No sudden moves. Keep your hands where they can see them. Stay in the car. Look straight ahead. Do whatever they tell you.

I guess I figured it was to keep from being arrested or detained.

I got the same advice.  If I was arrested there would be all sorts of awkward questions

"why are you carrying lock picks and a loupe?

I just was saying I didn't realize it was to prevent me from getting shot. But yes that might suck to.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2016, 05:08:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 

You know my parents gave me very specific rules with regards to the cops. No sudden moves. Keep your hands where they can see them. Stay in the car. Look straight ahead. Do whatever they tell you.

I guess I figured it was to keep from being arrested or detained.

Of course he should have stayed in the car,  but there are always going to be people who don't do that. They might be drunk, ignorant or simply belligerent. Police standard operating procedure should be something other than instantly gun down all of the above.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 26, 2016, 07:38:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 

You know my parents gave me very specific rules with regards to the cops. No sudden moves. Keep your hands where they can see them. Stay in the car. Look straight ahead. Do whatever they tell you.

I guess I figured it was to keep from being arrested or detained.
Yeah, I was always told the same. They should be prepared for those who don't know or who are really nervous.  The government response shouldn't be to treat every citizen as an existential threat until proven otherwise.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 26, 2016, 08:01:51 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2016, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 25, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
He should have been able to hear so that this wouldn't have happened. 

You know my parents gave me very specific rules with regards to the cops. No sudden moves. Keep your hands where they can see them. Stay in the car. Look straight ahead. Do whatever they tell you.

I guess I figured it was to keep from being arrested or detained.

That's a bit humiliating for a citizen of a free country, though, isn't it? Not to mention, even if these were common sense rules, failure to observe them should not mean you are dead.

I mean, when I read rules like that, you would have thought you are a peasant living in a country ruled by murderous robber barons, not the "land of the free".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on August 26, 2016, 08:03:52 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 25, 2016, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 25, 2016, 12:50:30 AM
KING: North Carolina police kill unarmed deaf man using sign language


Unfortunate title editing.

One wonders how exactly the cops were able to kill a person with sign language.  ;)

I guess it depends on the signs they used. Axii could be pretty deadly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 26, 2016, 08:55:26 AM
The Killing Word from Dune sounded out in ASL.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2016, 09:33:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 26, 2016, 08:01:51 AM

I mean, when I read rules like that, you would have thought you are a peasant living in a country ruled by murderous robber barons, not the "land of the free".

Well the end of that warning was that if the cops do anything fucked up we will lawyer up later. So there is that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2016, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 26, 2016, 08:01:51 AM
That's a bit humiliating for a citizen of a free country, though, isn't it?

I don't see how any of the things Raz mentioned are humiliating.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 27, 2016, 03:18:54 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2016, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 26, 2016, 08:01:51 AM
That's a bit humiliating for a citizen of a free country, though, isn't it?

I don't see how any of the things Raz mentioned are humiliating.

:unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 01, 2016, 08:44:12 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/01/oklahoma-police-pepper-spray-woman-84

QuoteOklahoma police pepper-spray 84-year-old woman after kicking open her door

Police kicked open an 84-year-old Oklahoma woman's front door and pepper-sprayed her during a search for her son, who was being chased after allegedly failing to stop at a stop sign.

Police in the city of Muskogee, near Tulsa, released body camera footage of the incident that took place at about 2.30am on 7 August.

The video shows an officer kicking the front door open, shouting commands and tasering Arthur Blackmon, who appears to be standing still with his hands up, holding a mobile phone. About 30 seconds after Blackmon is tased, officer Michelle Casady is heard telling Geneva Smith, who is backing away: "Turn around, face that way now, or I'll spray you." She directs a brief burst of spray at the elderly woman's head, causing her to reel.

"Hey! My mother is 84 years old, motherfucker!" Blackmon yells, as she falls to the ground and cries, "Help me, Jesus". A few seconds earlier, Smith had refused to get on the floor and told officers, "I ain't turning round for shit."

Officers were chasing the 56-year-old after he ran a stop sign, drove to his mother's house and failed to obey instructions to stay in his truck, then dashed into the home and refused to come out, according to police footage.

The Muskogee Phoenix said that Smith, who is black, was initially cited for resisting an officer, but the citation was dropped, while Blackmon was charged with drunk-driving, obstructing an officer, driving with a suspended license and illegally carrying a weapon.

"I just came out and asked them what was going on and they just pepper-sprayed me," Smith told Fox 23 local news, adding that she was taken to jail, then hospital after falling ill, and still felt pain in her eye more than a week later.

Rex Eskridge, the chief of police, told the station that the department released the footage to be transparent. "Videos can't give you the full sense of what happened but at the same time they do either validate or expose any warts that you might have," he said.

The department has launched an internal investigation to determine whether officers complied with policy. Police said in a statement that they used "non-lethal force" because the mother and her son repeatedly failed "to comply with lawful commands".

A spokesman said that police entered the house only after repeatedly attempting to make contact, then hearing yelling and a cry of "call 911!" from inside, prompting concern for the residents' safety, especially given that the truck they had chased was not registered at that address.

"We can't ignore the fact that there was wrong on both sides," said Derrick Reed, a former local NAACP president and current city councilman for the ward where the incident took place. He praised the police for releasing the footage and being responsive to the concerns of community leaders, who are now waiting for the results of the investigation.

Muskogee police made news locally last year when they pepper-sprayed an African American mentally disabled man during a search for a missing person at a home in the city, and nationally when an officer fatally shot a black man who was fleeing then stopped to bend over and pick up what appeared to be a gun in the road.

"We have worked in Muskogee to build relationships with our police department and so I can't say that all the force is bad but that night was a horrible night," Reed said.

"Looking at the video, anyone would think there could have been other avenues that the Muskogee police department could have taken that night so the outcome wouldn't be so horrific. Anyone seeing the video has to put in their mind that whether she was black or white she was somebody's grandmother, 84 years old, and there were seven police officers in the room ... the image that'll never escape my mind is there was an 84-year-old woman, pepper-sprayed, and could we have done something differently?"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 01, 2016, 08:48:41 AM
Wonder if Arthur feels guilty for bringing all that on his mom.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 01, 2016, 11:40:09 AM
Quoteas she falls to the ground and cries, "Help me, Jesus".

Lulz
goes straight to Jesus' voicemail
erases it and calls back later asking what she wantes
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 11:43:15 AM
It is amazing that local trouble in Oklahoma is now being reported in England. I wonder if this is like the video of Alabama cops beating down peaceful civil rights protesters in the impact it might have in the long term. The light of scrutiny is what usually finally moves institutions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 01, 2016, 11:57:09 AM
Jesus Christ.  They brought in four other cops and kicked in a door over a traffic violation.  What, did they think the this was some violent cell of the Black Panthers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 01, 2016, 11:57:09 AM
Jesus Christ.  They brought in four other cops and kicked in a door over a traffic violation.  What, did they think the this was some violent cell of the Black Panthers?

Never run from the cops. They will lose their damn minds.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 01, 2016, 12:05:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 01, 2016, 11:57:09 AM
Jesus Christ.  They brought in four other cops and kicked in a door over a traffic violation.  What, did they think the this was some violent cell of the Black Panthers?

Never run from the cops. They will lose their damn minds.

Well in general they seem to lose their minds if you don't do exactly as told.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 01, 2016, 12:09:30 PM
Yes, they have issues about that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 12:11:46 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 01, 2016, 12:05:47 PM
Well in general they seem to lose their minds if you don't do exactly as told.

Sadly yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 01, 2016, 12:21:44 PM
I was flipping channels over the weekend, and tripped over an old episode of Cops, judging by the car models and the haircuts, had to be the late 1980's;  Atlanta PD guy gets a call for a "black male with an open container", and eventually, on a side access road--no residences, just heavy industrial stuff--we find our subject, walking on the side of te road carrying a bottle in a paper bag.  Pulls up, wants to talk to him, and bang! We're off!
Cop catches up to him, other units get involved, cop gets all fucked up in the gravel and dirt of the road, needs help to walk to the ambulance, and all for what: to fuck with a negro for the sake of fucking with a negro.  Guy didn't even have a warrant.  Because Atlanta PD didn't gave enough to do that evening but their favorite pasttime. Shit never changes. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 01, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 11:43:15 AM
It is amazing that local trouble in Oklahoma is now being reported in England.

It helps feed a narrative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 01, 2016, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 01, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 11:43:15 AM
It is amazing that local trouble in Oklahoma is now being reported in England.

It helps feed a narrative.

Well the article does point out 3 lovely instances in that one town.

Besides, the narrative is an appropriate one so...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 01, 2016, 01:13:18 PM
Appropriate for what? Telling people that if you run from the cops and you use your family as human shields, they may get hurt?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 01:15:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 01, 2016, 01:13:18 PM
Appropriate for what? Telling people that if you run from the cops and you use your family as human shields, they may get hurt?

People in England need to be told this by using examples from Oklahoma? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 01, 2016, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 01:15:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 01, 2016, 01:13:18 PM
Appropriate for what? Telling people that if you run from the cops and you use your family as human shields, they may get hurt?

People in England need to be told this by using examples from Oklahoma? :hmm:

When he gets like that, it is best to leave him to his own devices.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 01, 2016, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 01, 2016, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 01:15:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 01, 2016, 01:13:18 PM
Appropriate for what? Telling people that if you run from the cops and you use your family as human shields, they may get hurt?

People in England need to be told this by using examples from Oklahoma? :hmm:

When he gets like that, it is best to leave him to his own devices.

Yep.  If we ignore him, he'll soon turn Blackmon into a terrorist.

I'm with Valmy.  The more publicity these incidents get, the more shame people will feel for having police departments like this, and the sooner they get rid of some of those cops and all of that mentality.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on September 01, 2016, 02:11:58 PM
The Guardian does have a US version and an Australian version as well as the British one, so lots of news from those places is on their website.

The behaviour of many US cops is quite terrifying from the British point of view. No doubt there are complex reasons for this but, just so you know, if you holiday in the UK then you can treat cops as fellow human beings rather than an as an armed occupying force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 02:16:54 PM
I know in France I was shocked at how the French treated their police. Regularly calling them names and screaming at them. Man you really have to have a desire for a bad day to try that shit here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 01, 2016, 02:22:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 02:16:54 PM
Man you really have to have a desire for a bad day to try that shit here.

Man you have to be willing to gamble with your life to try that in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 02, 2016, 06:07:41 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 01, 2016, 02:11:58 PM
The Guardian does have a US version and an Australian version as well as the British one, so lots of news from those places is on their website.

I wasn't aware of that.  Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 13, 2016, 08:46:53 AM
Ok, so maybe America does have a problem with institutionalized police violence. Cop fired for not killing unarmed man.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/09/12/west-virginia-cop-fired-for-not-killing-a-man-with-an-unloaded-gun/?utm_term=.573f3cc858e4

*edit* well he was armed, but with a unloaded gun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2016, 10:28:46 AM
So he de-escalates the guy, knowing he wants Suicide-By-Cop, and two officers show up and shoot him dead anyway.  And he gets fired for "failure to neutralize a threat."
That's just super.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 13, 2016, 12:26:26 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2016, 08:46:53 AM
Ok, so maybe America does have a problem with institutionalized police violence. Cop fired for not killing unarmed man.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/09/12/west-virginia-cop-fired-for-not-killing-a-man-with-an-unloaded-gun/?utm_term=.573f3cc858e4

*edit* well he was armed, but with a unloaded gun.

That's just messed up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2016, 03:13:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 01, 2016, 11:57:09 AM
Jesus Christ.  They brought in four other cops and kicked in a door over a traffic violation.  What, did they think the this was some violent cell of the Black Panthers?

Never run from the cops. They will lose their damn minds.
:yes:
yes, somehow, that happens to all of them.  Some power trip, I guess.  Police academies should maybe revise their teachings a bit on some aspects like there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2016, 06:13:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2016, 03:13:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2016, 12:01:37 PM
Never run from the cops. They will lose their damn minds.
:yes:
yes, somehow, that happens to all of them.  Some power trip, I guess.  Police academies should maybe revise their teachings a bit on some aspects like there.

It's adrenaline.  And anger. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on September 14, 2016, 08:38:04 PM
(https://i.redd.it/tll73du1gilx.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 14, 2016, 08:52:43 PM
Germans what pussies.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 14, 2016, 09:07:54 PM
Those people never do anything in moderation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 14, 2016, 09:08:16 PM
 :blurgh:


(https://news-images.vice.com/images/2015/08/09/at-least-1083-americans-have-been-killed-by-police-since-michael-browns-death-body-image-1439117542.gif?output-quality=75)


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fusuncut.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2Ftheuncounted.png&hash=d529ccf9346bbf500889944ca36ee71470a7274d)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 18, 2016, 07:41:47 AM
Not shooting and not US - but British cop is crazy in the video in the link.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/17/filmed-confrontation-between-driver-and-police-officer-goes-viral
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 18, 2016, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 18, 2016, 07:41:47 AM
Not shooting and not US - but British cop is crazy in the video in the link.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/17/filmed-confrontation-between-driver-and-police-officer-goes-viral

Bizarre, but even more bizarre is that the officer wasn't even suspended pending fuller investigation.  He's still out there, in uniform, at least potentially a ticking time bomb.  If he does something new, the MPS cannot claim that it couldn't know he was capable of such acts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2016, 10:30:30 AM
That whole situation could've been avoided if the office had the ability to shoot the driver, like we have here.  Pfft, Brits. USA USA USA
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 18, 2016, 12:02:01 PM
Silly brit, he should've had one of these on his ASP.


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.milestactical.com%2Fmm5%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2Fbustacap.jpg&hash=7db4cd16be39f6c4cf687a09dab1ec97a913a2c3)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 18, 2016, 01:00:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 18, 2016, 12:02:01 PM
Silly brit, he should've had one of these on his ASP.


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.milestactical.com%2Fmm5%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2Fbustacap.jpg&hash=7db4cd16be39f6c4cf687a09dab1ec97a913a2c3)

He left it on his LFB.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2016, 01:10:56 PM
Polish hockey puck?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 18, 2016, 01:19:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2016, 01:10:56 PM
Polish hockey puck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC3MY-4Ek0Q
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 18, 2016, 02:29:32 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 18, 2016, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 18, 2016, 07:41:47 AM
Not shooting and not US - but British cop is crazy in the video in the link.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/17/filmed-confrontation-between-driver-and-police-officer-goes-viral

Bizarre, but even more bizarre is that the officer wasn't even suspended pending fuller investigation.  He's still out there, in uniform, at least potentially a ticking time bomb.  If he does something new, the MPS cannot claim that it couldn't know he was capable of such acts.

Apparently both are now on 'restricted duties'? Not sure what that is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 18, 2016, 03:45:24 PM
Riding a desk more than likely.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 19, 2016, 10:47:21 PM
Heartbreaking.  :cry:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/david-clarke-jail-death-terrill-thomas_us_57e03580e4b04a1497b5f12e?section=&section=us_black-voices&
Quote
An Inmate Died Of Thirst In A Jail Run By A Loudly Pro-Trump Sheriff

Terrill Thomas' death in Milwaukee County Jail has been ruled a homicide. 09/19/2016 05:37 pm ET | Updated 4 hours ago


WASHINGTON ― Authorities have ruled the death of an inmate at a jail run by a top law enforcement supporter of GOP nominee Donald Trump a homicide caused by "profound dehydration."

Terrill Thomas, 38, was found dead in a Milwaukee County Jail cell on April 24, nine days after being arrested in connection with a shooting. Other inmates heard Thomas beg for water in the days before he died, the Journal Sentinel reported in July.

The Huffington Post has been tracking jail deaths ― more than 800 ― in the year since Sandra Bland died in a Texas jail on July 13, 2015.

http://data.huffingtonpost.com/2016/jail-deaths

Last week the Milwaukee County medical examiner announced that Thomas' death was due to profound dehydration, according to the Journal Sentinel. By labeling the death a homicide, the medical examiner indicated that it was caused by the actions of another person, although that judgment does not necessarily mean that anyone will be criminally prosecuted in the case.

The Milwaukee County Jail is run by Sheriff David A. Clarke Jr., an outspoken Trump supporter and critic of the Black Lives Matter movement. Clarke, who is technically a Democrat, has become popular in conservative circles in recent years for his specific criticism of President Barack Obama and more general critiques of liberalism. A recent disclosure form revealed that Clarke took in more than $150,000 in speaking fees, travel reimbursements and gifts in 2015.

Inmates told the Journal Sentinel that the water in Thomas' cell had been shut off for six days, and one inmate allegedly said to a guard, "If something happens to that man, it's your fault."

"No one should ever die of dehydration. It just should never happen," Erik J. Heipt, a lawyer for the Thomas family, told The Huffington Post.

Heipt, who has represented the families of a number of individuals who lost their lives in jail, said dehydration deaths were relatively rare. He pointed to a lawsuit involving a 25-year-old man who died of dehydration and malnutrition in a Island County Jail in Washington state, which was settled for $4 million last year.

"They may well have had reason to turn off the water. There absolutely could be reasons why you'd want to turn off someone's water in their cell. But to then not give them drinking water? That's crazy," Heipt said. "To make a human being die of thirst, where they have no ability to get their own water for survival, that's pretty inhumane. It doesn't get much worse than that."

Heipt said he has received calls from other former inmates of the Milwaukee County Jail who said the water to their cells had been cut off, too. In fact, another inmate, Antonio Cowser, died in 2011 after water to his cell was turned off.

"They could have gave him some water," Thomas' mother Celia told the Journal Sentinel.

Clarke's office issued a press release stating that it will not be commenting on the death until all investigations, as well as any civil lawsuits, have ended.

The Huffington Post is continuing to collect information on jail deaths that took place in the year after Bland died. Her family recently reached a settlement with Texas authorities in connection with her death.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 12:11:38 AM
QuotePost Nation
Man fatally shot by Tulsa police was unarmed, chief says, as 'disturbing' video is released
By Peter Holley, Wesley Lowery and Derek Hawkins
Washington Post
September 19 at 5:42 PM


Video in the story here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/09/19/man-fatally-shot-by-tulsa-police-was-unarmed-chief-says-as-disturbing-video-is-released/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_tulsa-655pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.a74dc546f458

Tulsa, Okla.,  police released video footage Monday that shows a white police officer fatally shooting an unarmed black man — footage that the city's police chief called "very disturbing."

"It's very difficult to watch," Police Chief Chuck Jordan said at a news conference Monday. "The first time I watched it I watched it with the family ... we will do the right thing, we will not cover anything up."

Jordan said investigators never found a weapon on Terence Crutcher or in his vehicle after the 40-year-old was shot and killed Friday as he stood beside his stalled SUV.

Crutcher died in a hospital later that evening.

Police spokeswoman Jeanne MacKenzie had earlier told reporters that two officers were walking toward the stalled SUV when Crutcher approached them from the side of the road.

"He refused to follow commands given by the officers," MacKenzie said. "They continued to talk to him; he continued not to listen and follow any commands. As they got closer to the vehicle, he reached inside the vehicle and at that time there was a Taser deployment, and a short time later there was one shot fired."

U.S. Attorney Danny Williams has announced that the Justice Department has opened an independent investigation into the shooting.

The footage is the latest in a series of controversial videos showing white police officers fatally shooting unarmed black men, and promises to add a new chapter to an already bitter and divisive debate about race and policing in America.

Crutcher is one of at least 680 people — 161 of them black men — who have been shot and killed by police officers this year, according to a Washington Post database tracking police shootings.

As has been the case in city after city following fatal police shootings, local officials called for calm and promised transparency in the hopes of preempting civil unrest.

"Please maintain the peace," Jordan urged.

The chief released few details about the shooting Monday, but said that officers discovered an SUV running in the middle of the road with its doors open. He said that officers then encountered Crutcher, who the officers claim did not comply with their demands and appeared to reach into the vehicle.

Video shows Crutcher walking toward his vehicle with his hands above his head while several officers follow closely behind him with weapons raised. He lingers at his vehicle's driver's side window, his body facing the SUV, before slumping to the ground a second later.

"Shots fired!" a female voice can be heard yelling.

Based on the video alone, it appears unclear who fired the fatal shot or why it was fired.

After Crutcher is hit, footage shows his limp and bloodied body lying on the roadway beside his vehicle. Officers appear to wait more than a minute before approaching Crutcher while he bleeds in the street.

"It was reported that Terence died at the hospital, that is not true," said Demario Solomon Simmons, one of the attorneys for Crutcher's family. "Terence died on that street by himself."

On Sunday, police released the names of the officers involved. Officer Betty Shelby, who has been with the force since 2011, fired her service weapon, and officer Tyler Turnbough, who was hired in 2009, deployed his Taser, police said. Both officers were placed on administrative leave with pay.

Police showed the video to Crutcher's family Sunday afternoon, and then to a group of local community leaders and ministers.

The Crutcher family and their attorneys were particularly angered by audio recordings of the responding officers, in which one officer describes Crutcher as a "bad dude."

"We're truly devastated. The entire family is devastated," said Tiffany Crutcher, the slain man's twin sister. "That big bad dude was a father, that big bad dude was a son, that big bad dude was enrolled at Tulsa Community College just wanting to make us all proud, that big bad dude loved God, that big bad dude was in church singing with all of his flaws every week."

Crutcher said her family's demand is for the "incompetent" officer who killed her brother to be charged immediately.

She recalled celebrating her and her brother's recent 40th birthday, on Aug. 16. On that day, Crutcher texted her to promise that he would complete his community college classes.

"I have his text message, and it said: I'm going to show you. I'm going to make you all proud," she said. "And now he'll never get that chance."



    #TerenceCrutcher sister: "That big bad dude was my twin brother, a father.....loved God." Watch live @FOX23 now pic.twitter.com/pJ1c3XNJqG

    — Tiffany Alaniz (@TiffanyAlaniz) September 19, 2016

    UPDATE: @TulsaPolice-Officer Betty Shelby is officer who discharged weapon during fatal shooting #TerenceCrutcher pic.twitter.com/zXXTXnA3WR

    — Tiffany Alaniz (@TiffanyAlaniz) September 18, 2016

Ray Owens, pastor of Metropolitan Baptist Church, was one of the the ministers shown the video before its public release and said the images were even worse than expected.

"I didn't expect the video to be this troubling, but it is troubling," Owens said. "The officer who shot and killed Terence said he refused to show his hands. The video footage, however, shows him with hands in the air, he walks away from the police at a slow pace, leans against the car, and that is when he was shot."

Owens said that the group of leaders gathered in the room were shocked by what they had seen, especially because it appeared that officers did not render aid to the dying man for more than a minute after he was shot.

"We asked questions of the police officers and the chief of police, who was there," Owens said. "And there didn't seem to be a real good explanation for why police would not have rendered medical aid for so long."

"He needed help, he needed a hand. And what he got was a bullet in the lungs," said Benjamin Crump, a civil rights attorney who has represented the families of the slain in many high-profile police shootings.

Crump compared the shooting to that of Jonathan Ferrell in North Carolina and Corey Jones in Florida, both cases which began with a black man having his car break down only to end up shot dead by an officer.

"What was Terence Crutcher's crime?" Crump asked. "When unarmed people of color break down on the side of the road, we're not treated as citizens needing help, we're treated as criminals, as suspects."


For Tulsa, Friday's shooting is the second time in as many years that the police have been involved in a controversial, high-profile shooting that was captured on video. This year, 74-year-old Robert Bates, a wealthy insurance executive who was a reserve Tulsa deputy, was convicted of second-degree manslaughter by a jury after he was caught on camera killing an unarmed black man fleeing police.

In April, jurors only needed three hours to find Bates guilty. His lawyer blamed "negative press" for the verdict.

The insurance executive had pleaded not guilty to second-degree manslaughter in the death of Eric Harris, the unarmed black man he shot and killed during an undercover operation April 2, 2015. Moments after shooting Harris, Bates could be heard on camera claiming that he shot Harris after mistakenly reaching for his gun instead of his taser at the end of a foot race.

According to the Tulsa World, Bates's lawyer called a psychiatrist to testify that Bates "mistakenly shooting Harris was reasonable given the stress of the situation, and before closing arguments jurors were instructed on the statutory requirements for 'excusable homicide.' " Jurors didn't buy the argument, agreeing with prosecutors after the 1 1/2-week trial that Bates was guilty of criminal negligence.

Andre Harris, the brother of the slain man, said four years in prison would "teach [Bates] a lesson," the newspaper reported. "That place ain't that nice," Andre Harris told reporters. "He said he hopes Bates learns that all lives matter, and he said Bates should not have been on a drug task force chasing supposedly deadly criminals," the newspaper reported. "Not at 73."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 20, 2016, 12:26:09 AM
Things will not start changing until every cop knowingly involved in bullshitting is criminally punished for conspiracy.  It's not nearly enough to just punish triggermen, usually the shooting itself is the most excusable act in such stories, whereas coming up with the consistent tale is 100% premeditated, and works about 100% of the time when there is no video.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 20, 2016, 12:48:35 AM
These tragic incidents could easily be avoided if people just stopped being black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 20, 2016, 07:46:26 AM
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-west-hartford-protester-arrest-lawsuit-0916-20160915-story.html


Quote3 Connecticut Troopers Sued Over Arrest Of Man Protesting West Hartford DUI Checkpoint

Three Connecticut state troopers are accused in a lawsuit filed Thursday of violating the constitutional rights of a protester at a sobriety checkpoint by seizing his pistol and camera and then arresting him on bogus criminal charges.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Connecticut filed the lawsuit in federal court on behalf of Michael Picard. Named in the lawsuit, which does not say how much money in damages is being sought, are troopers John Barone, Patrick Torneo and John Jacobi.

Trooper Kelly Grant, a state police spokeswoman, said an internal affairs investigation is active and referred other questions to the state attorney general's office, which declined to comment. The three troopers didn't immediately return messages Thursday.

Picard has become known to state and local police in the Hartford area for protesting drunken-driving checkpoints, which he says are constitutional search-and-seizure violations and a waste of public money, the lawsuit says.

At a checkpoint in West Hartford on Sept. 11, 2015, Barone confiscated Picard's legally carried pistol, pistol permit and camera on the pretext of public complaints, the lawsuit says. The troopers then got together and fabricated charges, not knowing they were still being recorded by Picard's camera after they seized it, according to the ACLU.

The troopers are heard but not seen on the recording calling a Hartford police officer to see if he or she had any "grudges" against Picard, initiating an investigation of him in a police database and discussing a previous protest Picard organized at the state Capitol, the lawsuit says.

After finding that Picard had a valid pistol permit, Barone tells the other troopers they have to "cover" themselves and either Torneo or Jacobi said "let's give him something," the lawsuit says. The troopers then wrote Picard infraction tickets for illegal use of a highway by a pedestrian and creating a public disturbance — charges later dismissed in court.

"Police should be focused on public safety, not punishing protesters and those who film public employees working on a public street," said Dan Barrett, legal director of the ACLU of Connecticut. "As the video shows, these police officers were more concerned with thwarting Mr. Picard's free speech and covering their tracks than upholding the law."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 21, 2016, 01:51:37 AM
Do we use this thread also to discuss anti-police thugs rioting and destroying property in response to shootings - or just for shootings?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2016, 09:57:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 21, 2016, 01:51:37 AM
Do we use this thread also to discuss anti-police thugs rioting and destroying property in response to shootings - or just for shootings?

:lol:  That's another thread, yeah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 22, 2016, 01:24:23 PM
Pretty solid though her prop usage was not so good.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/297243-black-dem-illustrates-list-of-things-that-will-get-you-killed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=154&v=IoGdX5sFU2I

QuoteBlack Dem illustrates 'list of things that will get you killed'

A senior member of the Congressional Black Caucus took to the House floor on Thursday to demonstrate seemingly innocuous activities that preceded the deaths of African-Americans in police confrontations.

Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) used a variety of props to illustrate her argument that African-Americans are primarily viewed with suspicion — even if they are doing something typically viewed as non-threatening.

"Each time we lose a precious life to fear, distress and prejudice, the list of things that will get you killed as a black person in America gets a little longer," Lee said.

She held up a packet of Skittles, the candy Trayvon Martin bought before being shot by an unofficial neighborhood watchman in 2012; a subway card, a reference to Oscar Grant's death in 2009 after being fatally shot by a BART Police officer in Oakland, Calif.; a pack of cigarettes, which Eric Garner was selling in 2014 when Staten Island, N.Y., police put him in a fatal chokehold; a CD case, like those Alton Sterling had been selling in Baton Rouge in July when shot and killed by police; a wallet, like the one Philando Castile allegedly reached for in July before being fatally shot by a Minnesota police officer; a photo of a toy gun, like one 12-year-old Tamir Rice was playing with before his 2014 shooting death; a license plate, because Samuel DuBose was stopped and shot by a Cincinnati police for a missing license plate in 2015; and a red toy car to represent traffic incidents that led to the deaths of Sandra Bland, Walter Scott and Terence Crutcher.
"Should any of this warrant a death sentence? Is this the America you want to live in?" Lee asked.


Lee recalled having "tough conversations" with her sons when they were young about the need to be careful in interactions with police because being black made it less likely they'd get the benefit of the doubt.

"Since Michael Brown was shot in Ferguson two years ago, 2,195 people have been killed by police in our nation. As the mother of two black men and the grandmother of five black grandchildren, I worry that someone I love could become number 2,196," she said.

Tensions have flared again in recent days after three fatal police shootings of African-Americans: teenager Tyre King in Columbus, Ohio; Crutcher in Tulsa, Okla.; and Keith Lamont Scott in Charlotte, N.C. Protests turned violent late Wednesday night in Charlotte, leaving one person seriously injured. 

Members of the Congressional Black Caucus are planning to take a bus to the Justice Department later Thursday to hand-deliver a letter to Attorney General Loretta Lynch asking for an investigation into the police shootings of African-Americans. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:07:10 PM
I was reading an article on huffpo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-halstead/dear-fellow-white-people-_b_11109842.html?) about why some people are so insistent about claiming all lives matter in response to black lives matter. In it, it had a link to those implicit association tests from Harvard (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html). I took the Skin tone test and the Race test. Here were my results:

Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for Dark Skinned People over Light Skinned People.
Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 22, 2016, 02:11:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2016, 01:24:23 PM
Pretty solid though her prop usage was not so good.

Watched only a smidge, but it seemed like her shpiel tracked pretty closely with the props.  With the exception of the toy gun the props are all ridiculous strawmen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:13:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:07:10 PM
I was reading an article on huffpo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-halstead/dear-fellow-white-people-_b_11109842.html?) about why some people are so insistent about claiming all lives matter in response to black lives matter. In it, it had a link to those implicit association tests from Harvard (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html). I took the Skin tone test and the Race test. Here were my results:

Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for Dark Skinned People over Light Skinned People.
Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

:hmm:

The hearts of humans are filled with contradictions.

It seems so ridiculous to get hung up on such a semantic point. Obviously the intent is to say that lives of dark skinned people also matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:14:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:13:40 PM
It seems so ridiculous to get hung up on such a semantic point. Obviously the intent is to say that lives of dark skinned people also matter.

I liked this line: If you went to a Breast Cancer Awareness event, you wouldn't think that they were saying that other types of cancer don't matter. And you'd be shocked if someone showed up with a sign saying "Colon Cancer Matters" or chanting "All Cancer Patients Matter."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 22, 2016, 02:16:11 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:07:10 PM
I was reading an article on huffpo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-halstead/dear-fellow-white-people-_b_11109842.html?) about why some people are so insistent about claiming all lives matter in response to black lives matter. In it, it had a link to those implicit association tests from Harvard (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html). I took the Skin tone test and the Race test. Here were my results:

Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for Dark Skinned People over Light Skinned People.
Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

:hmm:

So, you tend to prefer white people over black people, but among white people you prefer those with darker rather than light skin. Similarly, among black people you prefer darker skin over lighter skin?

I.e. you are biased in favour of dark skinned white people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:17:20 PM
Maybe he just likes dark skinned men born in Europe. That would explain his current location.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:20:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:17:20 PM
Maybe he just likes dark skinned men born in Europe. That would explain his current location.

England - home of the darkies!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:27:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:20:06 PM

England - home of the darkies!

Well if they are there London is probably a good place to find them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 22, 2016, 02:29:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:17:20 PM
Maybe he just likes dark skinned men born in Europe. That would explain his current location.

Maybe he likes Asians, Arabs, African-Africans, etc. more than whites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 22, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 22, 2016, 02:29:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2016, 02:17:20 PM
Maybe he just likes dark skinned men born in Europe. That would explain his current location.

Maybe he likes Asians, Arabs, African-Africans, etc. more than whites.

The skin-tone test had drawing of people (all different races though mainly white people) either in white tones are dark tones.

Race test was white people and black people faces close up so as not to show anything beyond face (no hair for instance).

So it is though I prefer white people with deep tans. :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 22, 2016, 04:14:33 PM
Tulsa OK cop has been charged with Man 1.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 22, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
Failure to comply in the absence of an immediate threat does not warrant the use of deadly force.

"Because he didn't do what I told him to do" is not a shoot/don't shoot qualifier in this situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 22, 2016, 04:36:32 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 18, 2016, 01:19:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2016, 01:10:56 PM
Polish hockey puck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC3MY-4Ek0Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC3MY-4Ek0Q)

I admit, I really love that video.  Seems like you could splice video of that guy knocking out windows with anything.

"The Dow Jones lost 300 points in heavy trading today"
*Smash window*

"I will build a great wall – and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me – and I'll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words."
*Smash Window*

"Do you have problems with chronic hemorrhoids?"
*Smash window*
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 26, 2016, 02:56:30 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/09/north-carolina-body-camera-law/501617/?utm_source=atlfb

Quote[...]

It's unclear, however, if future calls for the release of police footage will be heeded. That's because in June, North Carolina lawmakers overwhelmingly passed House Bill 972, which the governor signed into law the following month after saying dashboard and body-camera footage can "mislead and misinform."

A spokesman from the governor's office said: "North Carolina's new body camera bill sets up for the first time a legal process for the release of law enforcement video. It takes the decision out of the hands of politicians and puts it in the hands of an independent court system, which has been given wide latitude to make its determination."

The new law reclassifies dashboard and body-camera footage as a confidential personnel record, giving access only to those pictured or heard in footage, or their relatives. Starting next month, journalists or members of the public, who can view the footage because at present it's classified as public record, will need a court order to view it.

The law also bars police departments from releasing footage independently, because all requests go through a state superior court judge. It also gives police departments the right to refuse anyone access to footage if it could damage an officer's reputation, jeopardize someone's safety, or if it could harm an "active or inactive internal or criminal investigation."

Critics say North Carolina's law is at odds with the movement toward body cameras, because the footage is meant to hold police accountable to the public. This was certainly the case in Chicago, with the death of Laquan McDonald, when the government fought for a year to keep the video private, only to have politicians call it "chilling" after its release. That resulted in a murder charge for the officer accused of shooting McDonald.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 26, 2016, 02:59:46 PM
QuoteA spokesman from the governor's office said: "North Carolina's new body camera bill sets up for the first time a legal process for the release of law enforcement video. It takes the decision out of the hands of politicians and puts it in the hands of an independent court system, which has been given wide latitude to make its determination."

lol, Evidence: No, It's Not What You Thought It Meant
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 26, 2016, 03:01:00 PM
QuoteIt also gives police departments the right to refuse anyone access to footage if it could damage an officer's reputation, jeopardize someone's safety, or if it could harm an "active or inactive internal or criminal investigation.

So they are never getting released?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 26, 2016, 07:02:26 PM
Filed under "I" for "Imagine That!"...

Charlotte officer did not activate body camera until after Keith Scott had been shot (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/09/26/charlotte-officer-did-not-activate-body-camera-until-after-keith-scott-had-been-shot-2/?tid=pm_pop_b&utm_term=.406284f14f2e)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 26, 2016, 07:22:34 PM
I would think it would be kind of obvious that there must be controls to require the cameras on at all times.  Otherwise, such footage will be used selectively, and "lost" one way or the other otherwise.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 26, 2016, 07:26:08 PM
Yes, one would think that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.

Not relevant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:28:50 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.

No relevant.

Why not? The police are claiming that the guy was acting violently. The protesters are presenting a narrative that the police shot in cold blood an innocent, mentally challenged man.

I think the fact that he was in fact a low life criminal lends more credibility to the police's narrative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:32:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:28:50 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.

No relevant.

Why not? The police are claiming that the guy was acting violently. The protesters are presenting a narrative that the police shot in cold blood an innocent, mentally challenged man.

I think the fact that he was in fact a low life criminal lends more credibility to the police's narrative.

Just because your a felon, convicted as you say, served your time, does not give any cop the right to pull the trigger as a first resort.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:34:44 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:32:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:28:50 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.

No relevant.

Why not? The police are claiming that the guy was acting violently. The protesters are presenting a narrative that the police shot in cold blood an innocent, mentally challenged man.

I think the fact that he was in fact a low life criminal lends more credibility to the police's narrative.

Just because your a felon, convicted as you say, served your time, does not give any cop the right to pull the trigger as a first resort.

That's not what I said.

Incidentally, it's always interesting that every time the American public freaks out over police shooting, it turns out in the end that the victim is not so innocent as people originally thought.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:38:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:34:44 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:32:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:28:50 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.

No relevant.

Why not? The police are claiming that the guy was acting violently. The protesters are presenting a narrative that the police shot in cold blood an innocent, mentally challenged man.

I think the fact that he was in fact a low life criminal lends more credibility to the police's narrative.

Just because your a felon, convicted as you say, served your time, does not give any cop the right to pull the trigger as a first resort.

That's not what I said.

Incidentally, it's always interesting that every time the American public freaks out over police shooting, it turns out in the end that the victim is not so innocent as people originally thought.

I am directly calling you out on your statement. It is not relevant or justification to shoot someone.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 01:20:29 AM
And my position is simply: if you want to protest something, there are hundreds of more worthy causes than the police shooting an armed violent convict.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2016, 01:58:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:34:44 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:32:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:28:50 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 29, 2016, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
So, apparently the guy who was shot in Charlotte had a past conviction for an assault with a deadly weapon, and served 6 years in prison.

No relevant.

Why not? The police are claiming that the guy was acting violently. The protesters are presenting a narrative that the police shot in cold blood an innocent, mentally challenged man.

I think the fact that he was in fact a low life criminal lends more credibility to the police's narrative.

Just because your a felon, convicted as you say, served your time, does not give any cop the right to pull the trigger as a first resort.

That's not what I said.

Incidentally, it's always interesting that every time the American public freaks out over police shooting, it turns out in the end that the victim is not so innocent as people originally thought.

Right, every time.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If you would just hedge a bit, even a little, you'd look so much more reasonable. But like your ideal the Donald, you have to go full bore every time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 29, 2016, 02:11:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 01:20:29 AM
And my position is simply: if you want to protest something, there are hundreds of more worthy causes than the police shooting an armed violent convict.

Yep because people with a criminal record should be executed after serving their sentences with no one batting an eye.

Anyway all this outrage is about the volume/frequency of black people being killed. How would it help to weed out cases?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 29, 2016, 06:40:44 AM
lol, Polish lawyers. :lol:


Marti's just enamored with the concept of racist Southern living, what with such fabulous gowns and matching parasols.  Oh, lace gloves!  I do declare! :flutter:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on September 29, 2016, 07:07:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 29, 2016, 06:40:44 AM
lol, Polish lawyers. :lol:


Marti's just enamored with the concept of racist Southern living, what with such fabulous gowns and matching parasols.  Oh, lace gloves!  I do declare! :flutter:

All he needs to do now is start pushing 2nd right to bear arms stuff, oh and buy a porsche.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 29, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 01:20:29 AM
And my position is simply: if you want to protest something, there are hundreds of more worthy causes than the police shooting an armed violent convict.

11B4whatever is right to call you out on this.  The fact is irrelevant, and it's unlikely the police even knew about it.  Now the choice to shoot may have been correct, I don't know.  If the man was indeed waving a firearm and constituted a danger to the public then the police may not have had a choice.  But prior convictions don't come into this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on September 29, 2016, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:34:44 AM
Incidentally, it's always interesting that every time the American public freaks out over police shooting, it turns out in the end that the victim is not so innocent as people originally thought.

Yeah, like that Tamir Rice convict.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on September 29, 2016, 08:33:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 29, 2016, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 12:34:44 AM
Incidentally, it's always interesting that every time the American public freaks out over police shooting, it turns out in the end that the victim is not so innocent as people originally thought.

Yeah, like that Tamir Rice convict.

Of course, then there was this felon and convict that people freaked out over who the police shot 5 times in the head and chest:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F151109202914-jeremy-mardis-exlarge-169.jpg&hash=cb62c2ef0959268c490c02e80455f89613e7705c)

I mean, he was a 6 year old autistic first grader, but certainly not nearly as innocent as he looks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on September 29, 2016, 08:50:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 29, 2016, 08:33:46 AM
I mean, he was a 6 year old autistic first grader, but certainly not nearly as innocent as he looks.

Would you trust him with your Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles action figures?  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on September 30, 2016, 08:24:42 AM
Wow, Marty sure got quiet all of a sudden...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on September 30, 2016, 09:01:50 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 29, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2016, 01:20:29 AM
And my position is simply: if you want to protest something, there are hundreds of more worthy causes than the police shooting an armed violent convict.

11B4whatever is right to call you out on this.  The fact is irrelevant, and it's unlikely the police even knew about it.  Now the choice to shoot may have been correct, I don't know.  If the man was indeed waving a firearm and constituted a danger to the public then the police may not have had a choice. But prior convictions don't come into this.

I think this notion will have Marty stumped.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 10:19:13 AM
'I'm going to hit him': Dash-cam video shows officers tried to run over man before shooting him 14 times (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/01/im-going-to-hit-him-dashcam-shows-cops-tried-to-run-over-man-before-shooting-him-14-times/?utm_term=.840a3ff63024)

This one has audio, so he can hear all 14 shots in their semi-automatic MAGAZINE-emptying wonder. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 02, 2016, 10:59:38 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 10:19:13 AM
'I'm going to hit him': Dash-cam video shows officers tried to run over man before shooting him 14 times (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/01/im-going-to-hit-him-dashcam-shows-cops-tried-to-run-over-man-before-shooting-him-14-times/?utm_term=.840a3ff63024)

This one has audio, so he can hear all 14 shots in their semi-automatic MAGAZINE-emptying wonder.


Quote"F— this guy," the officer says before aiming his police cruiser at the mentally ill homeless man that he and his partner had been sent out to confront. "I"m going to hit him."

"Okay, go for it. Go for it," his partner responds

Dafuq?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 02, 2016, 11:39:40 AM
:(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 11:55:32 AM
Hey, you can't have law and order without law and order.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 02, 2016, 12:16:07 PM
Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 02, 2016, 12:17:26 PM
Ok surely those guys will be sent to prison right?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 02, 2016, 12:23:59 PM
Maybe they were afraid someone else would steal the kill from them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2016, 12:17:26 PM
Ok surely those guys will be sent to prison right?

Why would you think that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 02, 2016, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2016, 12:17:26 PM
Ok surely those guys will be sent to prison right?

Why would you think that?

Because of them conspiring to murder the guy is right there on tape?

But what do I know? That NFL player told all his friends he was going to rape a woman, he did, they testified that he told them this and he STILL was found innocent so it is very possible I just do not understand criminal law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Martinus on October 02, 2016, 03:19:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 30, 2016, 08:24:42 AM
Wow, Marty sure got quiet all of a sudden...

Sorry, I am busy and do not check obsessively on all the threads.

This is clearly outrageous. It does not mean that every single case thought so by the SJW mob is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2016, 04:42:51 PM
I find this one a lot less outrageous than the ones involved obviously unarmed suspects.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 02, 2016, 06:12:29 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 02, 2016, 03:19:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 30, 2016, 08:24:42 AM
Wow, Marty sure got quiet all of a sudden...

Sorry, I am busy and do not check obsessively on all the threads.

This is clearly outrageous. It does not mean that every single case thought so by the SJW mob is.

Well that is not really the point. The SJW mob, or at least some flavors of them, have a certain world view this crisis is feeding.

The truth of the matter is that way too many civilians are being killed by police. This is a result of bad training and bad priorities, the later largely a result of the wars on terror and drugs. Reforms and priorities need to be shifted to help protect the citizens. Even convicted felons and criminals should not be shot unless it is absolutely necessary. The fact that certain demographics are being shot more than perhaps they should be is also something that should be addressed by reform.

One would think that would be rather uncontroversial but instead all this feeds into the culture war where fighting the fight is far more important than actually doing anything. So instead we get big debates about semantics and which side is the more wicked. Frustrating.

Though that is not to say that positive things are not happening. I am sure that in some communities good work is being done. Just not nationally, which is regrettable since federal policies play a role in how this has happened IMO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 02, 2016, 06:59:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2016, 12:34:07 PM
Because of them conspiring to murder the guy is right there on tape?

Quote
so it is very possible I just do not understand criminal law.
this.  Not many cops have been charged and convicted of murder in cases similar to this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 07:04:54 PM
As any filthy piece of shit lawyer and Ideologue will tell you, there's a difference between the objective truth and the legal truth.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 02, 2016, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2016, 07:04:54 PM
As any filthy piece of shit lawyer and Ideologue will tell you, there's a difference between the objective truth and the legal truth.
Yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 02, 2016, 11:41:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 02, 2016, 03:19:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 30, 2016, 08:24:42 AM
Wow, Marty sure got quiet all of a sudden...

Sorry, I am busy and do not check obsessively on all the threads.

This is clearly outrageous. It does not mean that every single case thought so by the SJW mob is.

But that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that in all cases, it turns out the "victim" was not that innocent.

So you know, you are wrong. Again.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 03, 2016, 05:10:15 AM
At least this guy didn't get shot.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dejuan-yource-arrested-on-porch_us_57eec39ee4b024a52d2ef329?section=&
Quote
Video Shows Carolina Cop Violently Arrest Black Man For Sitting On His Porch
Greensboro Officer Travis Cole was stripped of his law enforcement credentials, but he escaped criminal charges.

09/30/2016 11:28 pm ET | Updated 1 day ago


Carla Herreria Senior Writer, HuffPost Hawaii

City council members in Greensboro, North Carolina voted this week to strip the law enforcement credentials of a police officer who is accused of violently arresting a man sitting on his porch after body camera footage of the arrest was made public.

The council voted unanimously Monday to permanently sanction Officer Travis Cole for using excessive force during the June arrest. The body camera footage shows Cole roughly throwing Dejuan Yourse to the floor of the porch and punching him as Yourse waited for his mom to come home and let him into the house, according to local news WREG.

The council pushed for criminal charges against Cole, but the district attorney refused, saying he wouldn't "rehash the same evidence," the Greensboro News & Record reported.

Cole and another officer approached Yourse's house after they were dispatched to investigate a possible break-in on June 17.

As seen in body camera footage from both officers, combined below, Yourse explains that he's waiting for his mom, who has lived in the neighborhood for 10 years, and visits her house every day.

Yourse is seen on the video attempting to phone his mom so she can speak to the officers. He gives the officers his ID, which lists the address as his residence, and he suggests the officers ask a neighbor to verify that he lives there.

The exchange escalates when Cole places his hands on Yourse's chest to stop him from walking away. After Yourse sits back down, Cole snatches Yourse's phone from his hand while Yourse is talking to someone, asking the person to come to his house because "the police is over here and they harassing me."

Cole then throws Yourse to the floor and struggles to handcuff him. Amid the scuffle, Yourse repeatedly asks Cole why he's punching him. When Cole yells, "I'm going to hit you again," Yourse yells back, "Why?"

The cops charged Yourse with resisting arrest and assault on government officials. The charges were dropped when Cole resigned from his position in August. The second officer involved in Yourse's arrest, C.N. Jackson, quit her job on Wednesday. Both ex-officers are white.

Warning: The video below is violent and contains explicit language.
https://youtu.be/VGTZBNoLayM
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 03, 2016, 06:25:34 AM
The real disadvantage of elected judicial authorities can be seen in the Greensboro case.  No way those thug cops avoid trial for their assault unless the DA is confident that the voters will endorse a travesty of justice.

This is why pressure from groups like BLM matters - not everyone in city hall gives a shit about justice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 03, 2016, 07:31:52 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/09/body-cameras-are-just-making-police-departments-more-powerful/502421/

QuoteBody Cameras Are Betraying Their Promise

They're not transparent. They're not independent. They're not even turned on when they should be.

When they were introduced to the American public two years ago, police body-cameras seemed like they might help everyone. Police departments liked that body cams reduced the number of public complaints about officer behavior. Communities and protesters liked that they would introduce some transparency and accountability to an officer's actions.

Today, research suggests that body cameras significantly reduce the number of public complaints about police. But recent events subvert the idea that the devices help or increase the power of regular people—that is, the policed. Instead of making officers more accountable and transparent to the public, body cameras may be making officers and departments more powerful than they were before.

This is happening across the country. And there are three trends that are repeating themselves over and over.

First, many officers are (either earnestly or conveniently) forgetting to activate their cameras when they're supposed to. Take the case of Terrence Sterling, an unarmed 31-year-old black man who was fatally shot this month by local police officers in Washington, D.C., after his motorcycle crashed into their car. Contrary to District of Columbia policy, no officer at the scene activated their body camera until after the shooting. The city released footage of Sterling's final moments this week—but that video begins more than a minute after shots were fired.

Also this week, The Washington Post revealed that an officer present at the shooting of Keith Scott, in Charlotte, North Carolina, did not activate his body camera when he should have. The officer only turned it on immediately after another officer at the scene shot Scott. Due to a feature of the camera that saves the 30 seconds of video prior to its activation, this meant that while the shots were captured on camera, the footage had no sound. (Dashboard-camera video released over the weekend seemed to show that Scott, a 43-year-old black man, had his hands by his side when another officer shot him four times and killed him.)

Or consult the case of Paul O'Neal, an unarmed 18-year-old black teenager who was shot and killed by a Chicago Police Department officer in late July. The officer's body camera was also turned off during the shooting.

In case after case, police departments say officers did not have their body cameras activated when it counted. It can seem as though incidents where body-cam footage helped secure an indictment—such as in Marksville, Louisiana, last November, or as in Cincinnati last July—are more rare than the cases where they don't.

These are breaches of protocol—incidents where events didn't happen as the law would require. Often, these violations are never significantly punished. This is the second major threat to body-camera accountability: If there's not significant discipline for officers who fail to follow local policies—as the officers failed in D.C., Chicago, and Charlotte—then it doesn't matter what's in the policy.

"Even if a department like Chicago has a great, green-check-mark policy, there are still lapses by officers," said Harlan Yu, a technologist at Upturn, a civil-rights consulting firm. "In the Paul O'Neal shooting, cameras were on before, they appear to be on after, but then—oh well!—something happened" during the shooting itself.

"We see this in Chicago over and over in other areas—there are all sorts of stories about Chicago cops purposefully deactivating their dash cams, even though they're required to use them and the city pays for them. But who is disciplining officers when they fail to follow the policies? If taxpayers are spending money on these cameras, they sure as hell better be working when a shooting happens," he added.

The third threat is that many states have introduced or passed new laws that restrict public access to footage while preserving police access.

In October, North Carolina will enforce a new law that only allows courts, and not politicians, to release any body-camera footage. The law asks state judges to weigh various factors before releasing a video, including whether it is "necessary to advance a compelling public interest" and whether it would "create a serious threat to the fair, impartial, and orderly administration of justice."

North Carolina is not the only state to restrict access to body-camera footage. The Urban Institute says that Illinois, Texas, South Carolina, and other states have all blocked the public's access to it.

To be sure, some of this restriction may make sense. Body cameras present a somewhat counterintuitive method for keeping the police accountable. Though the devices are meant to preserve the actions of individual officers, they do so by filming members of the community: Cops may be the target of body cams, but they're not the subject of its footage. And most people filmed by a body camera are just going about their day, unaware they're being filmed at all. This means that some states do need to adjust their freedom-of-information policies to protect people's privacy.

Yet that requirement alone does not explain all the restrictions, including those recently enacted by North Carolina. And what makes many of these policies even worse is that, in the vast majority of cases, officers can view body-camera footage before filing a report about an incident even when other witnesses cannot. This even holds for use-of-force incidents.

"In most jurisdictions, because unions have fought really hard for this, officers get to view footage before writing their report," Yu said.

When Upturn and the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights conducted an audit of local body-camera policies last month, they found that no major urban police department required officers to file a report before they got to see footage of it. Only a few cities—including Atlanta and Oakland—introduced a special two-step process for use-of-force incidents, where officers have to file a preliminary report that they can then augment after watching footage.

This kind of policy completely subverts the egalitarianism that body cameras are supposed to ensure. Instead of providing an independent documentation of an event, body cameras seem to be one more way that police officers can shore up their version of events on the ground.

Body cameras represent a significant investment. In the last two years, the U.S. government has spent more than $23 million buying body cameras for local and state police departments. This week, the Department of Justice put up another $20 million in grants.

When used as they're intended, body cameras do sometimes capture the most flagrant and dangerous officer behavior. But if the laws around them do not change, they will become an effective replacement for dashboard cameras: another fancy technology, initially embraced by the police and the policed, that often doesn't seem to work at the most crucial moments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 03, 2016, 10:43:42 PM
An old, but..unusual incident of police violence that I just had to share.

http://fox13now.com/2013/08/03/new-details-emerge-regarding-grand-co-deputy-charged-with-assaulting-his-father/

Quote

New details emerge regarding Grand Co. deputy charged with assaulting his father

Posted 9:58 pm, August 3, 2013, by Gene Kennedy

GRAND COUNTY, Utah -- A father and son, both in positions of authority, are at the center of a scandal that's growing in Moab.

Now, police reports have been released detailing how a deputy allegedly tried to kill his dad over a shocking discovery. The reports can be viewed here, but some of the contents may be considered graphic by some readers.

The website "Talking Points Memo" posted the 13-page report where numerous officers offer accounts of the July 11 crime.  One by one, they say the discovery of an affair fueled a drunken attack, then a suicide attempt.

The Brewer family is known for their high-profile positions in Moab-area emergency services.

On July 11 they gathered at Grand County Deputy T.J. Brewer's home.

The family dinner ended with a massive domestic violence attack after the deputy discovered his wife allegedly having sex with the deputy's father, Corky Brewer, according to reports, which say the sexual encounter happened in one of the children's bedrooms.

Police reports say Deputy Brewer lost it and started to "beat the f--- out of his dad.  He stated several times that he wanted to kill his dad, that he wanted his gun to finish the job."

Brewer allegedly pistol whipped his father and wife.  According to the police reports, "TJ hit her, backhanded her, and pointed a handgun at her face."


After the alleged assault, everyone went home but the father and fire chief, Corky Brewer, who was about to continue where his son left off.

The police reports say, "Corky was apparently looking for a firearm and his wife, Cindy Brewer, denied him access to the firearm.  Corky then grabbed a butcher knife and stabbed himself two times puncturing a lung and slicing his liver."


The narrative confirms what neighbors suspected for weeks.

One neighbor who didn't want to be identified described the July 12 crime scene.

"A lot of police cars here early this morning, they've been here all morning going in and out of the house, don't get any information but I know something was going on," the neighbor said.

The reports say officers removed bloody clothes from Corky Brewer's trash cans, plus guns from the home.  And police say the violence spilled over to the local hospital, where T.J. Brewer allegedly hit a cop, according to the documents.

"After T.J. heard his father was alive, he left to go to Moab Regional Hospital to finish him off."
Police arrested Deputy Brewer and later transported his father to a Grand Junction, Colorado hospital.

He's been released and Deputy Brewer has resigned.

"It does surprise me," said Corky Brewer's neighbor Stephanie Cluff.

On July 12 Cluff said, "The family is always very close. To hear that, we never seen anything like that, just a close family all together."

Initially T.J. Brewer was booked into the San Juan County Jail on suspicion of attempted murder, amongst other allegations.  The charges actually filed were assault and assault of a police officer.

The Utah Attorney General's Office is prosecuting the case to avoid conflicts of interest since the Brewer family has extensive ties to law enforcement, emergency services and local government. Deputy T.J. Brewer has a hearing scheduled Tuesday in Moab.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2016, 10:49:16 PM
 :lol:

Just start Googling pictures of everybody, they're out there.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 03, 2016, 11:58:19 PM
Hunter shot by cop, prosecuted for negligent use of firearm (http://www.journaldequebec.com/2016/10/03/il-croyait-tirer-vers-une-perdrix-cetait-un-policier-embusque)
2004 text
(http://www.lapresse.ca/le-nouvelliste/justice-et-faits-divers/201409/12/01-4799698-atteint-par-balle-il-se-dit-victime-dune-bavure-policiere.php)(yeah, use Google translate.)

That's silly.  The man goes hunting on his land, the cops see him they hide, with camo equipment and facepaint.  They were hoping to catch wannabe drug kingpins in the act.  The hunter starts shooting at birds, then the cops, seeing the armed man (duh) getting closer to them starts shooting.  They fired a dozen shot at him and hit his shoulder.

No accusation against the cops, but the hunter gets charged for negligent use of his firearm.  At no point did the officers identified themselves as cops.  During hunting season.  Wearing camouflage.  And they wonder why somebody would shoot in their general direction??
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on October 04, 2016, 11:09:17 AM
John Oliver's take on cop shootings.

https://youtu.be/zaD84DTGULo
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on October 05, 2016, 05:03:48 AM
Forcing people to get catheters to get urine samples? What's the fuck is wrong with you people

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/10/police-use-catheters-force-to-collect-urine-sample/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 05, 2016, 05:11:57 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 05, 2016, 05:03:48 AM
Forcing people to get catheters to get urine samples? What's the fuck is wrong with you people

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/10/police-use-catheters-force-to-collect-urine-sample/

South Dakota?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on October 05, 2016, 05:14:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2016, 05:11:57 AM
Quote from: HVC on October 05, 2016, 05:03:48 AM
Forcing people to get catheters to get urine samples? What's the fuck is wrong with you people

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/10/police-use-catheters-force-to-collect-urine-sample/

South Dakota?

Keep reading, it happens in other states
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 05, 2016, 05:16:45 AM
I don't read anything that tells me to 'click here to read more'. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on October 05, 2016, 05:20:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2016, 05:16:45 AM
I don't read anything that tells me to 'click here to read more'. -_-

Fair enough lol. Basically it mentions Utah and Indiana as well. That and if you keep reading they don't  anesthetize when forcing a tube down their dick. I never got a catheter, so I don't know if normally anethatization is used.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 05, 2016, 05:23:26 AM
It seems the safest way to interact with US police at this point is to lie flat on the ground with your empty hands in the air and quietly pissing your pants.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 05, 2016, 05:27:52 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 05, 2016, 05:23:26 AM
It seems the safest way to interact with US police at this point is to lie flat on the ground with your empty hands in the air and quietly pissing your pants.

Better, well my preferred option, is to never be near them and failing that, never attract their attention.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on October 05, 2016, 07:47:50 PM
Quote from: Syt on October 05, 2016, 05:23:26 AM
It seems the safest way to interact with US police at this point is to lie flat on the ground with your empty hands in the air and quietly pissing your pants.

Won't work.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2016, 07:47:50 PM
Quote from: Syt on October 05, 2016, 05:23:26 AM
It seems the safest way to interact with US police at this point is to lie flat on the ground with your empty hands in the air and quietly pissing your pants.

Won't work.

You'll just get your ass beat for making the wagon smell like piss.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 05, 2016, 09:19:50 PM
You two have to do a standup routine sometime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:23:06 PM
Good Cop, Base Cop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on October 05, 2016, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:23:06 PM
Good Cop, Base Cop?

Our customer service is of the highest level.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on October 05, 2016, 09:25:53 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:23:06 PM
Good Cop, Base Cop?

Your comedy goes at a good clip.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:26:01 PM
You have the right...to park in the Employees Only lot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on October 05, 2016, 09:31:37 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:26:01 PM
You have the right...to park in the Employees Only lot.

and pull a gun on you, if you don't have the right access credential.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on October 05, 2016, 09:32:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2016, 09:31:37 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:26:01 PM
You have the right...to park in the Employees Only lot.

and pull a gun on you, if you don't have the right access credential.

Be sure to empty your clip
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on October 05, 2016, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 05, 2016, 09:32:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2016, 09:31:37 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:26:01 PM
You have the right...to park in the Employees Only lot.

and pull a gun on you, if you don't have the right access credential.

Be sure to empty your clip

Stop trying to clip people's wings.   :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2016, 09:56:07 PM
As an aside...You guys want to read a really good piece on inner-city violence, particularly in Baltimore--

http://bsun.md/2cHnpAG

It's long, and the first in a series, but it's got a lot of interactive features.  If you have the time, it's truly fascinating shit. 

QuoteMany of the guns are equipped with extended magazines, allowing a shooter to fire from a distance and "walk down" a victim, continuously firing. The sale of "extendos" with more than 10 rounds are banned in Maryland, where they are prized in street cultures, tucked under belts and into pants as a fashion statement. In Baltimore, police are finding up to 80 shell casings at a single crime scene.

Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier, who retired last month after more than a decade in Washington, keeps a photo of a 100-round magazine seized by police on her cellphone as a reminder of the firepower out there.

Law enforcement officials across the country say they've observed insidious circumstances that are difficult to quantify. Reckless shootings in the daytime. Vigilante justice and contract killers. Gang rules that codify when violence should be used — and street rules limiting violence against bystanders being ignored.

"The criminals are more brazen," said Baltimore police Maj. Donald Bauer, who leads the homicide unit.

While shooters' motives vary, experts and those caught in the crossfire note a ruthlessness on the streets where criminals with more sophisticated weaponry aren't just using guns to intimidate rivals or rob. They are using them to take people out with greater success.

In Baltimore and other cities with a deeply entrenched "no-snitching" ethos, the emphasis is on leaving behind no witnesses and no one to retaliate.


Some shit hasn't changed, but some shit has.


QuoteOn the streets, particularly in poor, black neighborhoods, residents are witnessing increasingly deadly tactics. More shooters are aiming for the head and firing multiple rounds into victims.

In Baltimore, the number of fatal head shots rose steadily from about 13 percent two decades ago to 62 percent last year. Meanwhile, the number of cadavers with 10 or more bullets more than doubled in the past decade,
according to the Maryland medical examiner's office, which tallied the bullet wounds at the request of The Sun.

Now, roughly two-thirds of city homicide victims are either shot in the head or multiple times. Many suffer both fates.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on October 05, 2016, 09:59:46 PM
(https://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrlal7iPrC1r2rp93o1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on October 05, 2016, 10:06:44 PM
Is that a grenade launcher on a hand gun? Bare with me, I'm a Canuck and gun illiterate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on October 05, 2016, 10:12:59 PM
Quote from: HVC on October 05, 2016, 10:06:44 PM
Is that a grenade launcher on a hand gun? Bare with me, I'm a Canuck and gun illiterate.

Yes. An example of "TacticaLOL".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: frunk on October 06, 2016, 01:10:10 PM
The Sandy Hook Hoax (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/09/the-sandy-hook-hoax.html)

Long article about one of the victim's father's fight against the conspiracy theorists claiming that Sandy Hook never happened.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 06, 2016, 01:44:36 PM
Quote from: frunk on October 06, 2016, 01:10:10 PM
The Sandy Hook Hoax (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/09/the-sandy-hook-hoax.html)

Long article about one of the victim's father's fight against the conspiracy theorists claiming that Sandy Hook never happened.



The internet is a scary place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 09, 2016, 03:57:50 AM
A look at one lovely facet of the prison industrial complex:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/07/us/prisoner-transport-vans.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-News

QuotePrivate Prisoner Vans' Long Road of Neglect

In July 2012, Steven Galack, the former owner of a home remodeling business, was living in Florida when he was arrested on an out-of-state warrant for failing to pay child support. Mr. Galack, 46, had come to the end of a long downward spiral, overcoming a painkiller addiction only to struggle with crippling anxiety. Now, he was to be driven more than a thousand miles to Butler County, Ohio, where his ex-wife and three children lived, to face a judge.

Like dozens of states and countless localities, Butler County outsources the long-distance transport of suspects and fugitives. Mr. Galack was loaded into a van run by Prisoner Transportation Services of America, the nation's largest for-profit extradition company.

Crammed around him were 10 other people, both men and women, all handcuffed and shackled at the waist and ankles. They sat tightly packed on seats inside a cage, with no way to lie down to sleep. The air conditioning faltered amid 90-degree heat. Mr. Galack soon grew delusional, keeping everyone awake with a barrage of chatter and odd behavior. On the third day, the van stopped in Georgia, and one of two guards onboard gave a directive to the prisoners. "Only body shots," one prisoner said she heard the guard say. The others began to stomp on Mr. Galack, two prisoners said.

The guards said later in depositions that they had first noticed Mr. Galack's slumped, bloodied body more than 70 miles later, in Tennessee. A homicide investigation lasted less than a day, and the van continued on its journey. The cause of death was later found to be undetermined
.

Every year, tens of thousands of fugitives and suspects — many of whom have not been convicted of a crime — are entrusted to a handful of small private companies that specialize in state and local extraditions.

A Marshall Project review of thousands of court documents, federal records and local news articles and interviews with more than 50 current or former guards and executives reveals a pattern of prisoner abuse and neglect in an industry that operates with almost no oversight.

Since 2012, at least four people, including Mr. Galack, have died on private extradition vans, all of them run by the Tennessee-based Prisoner Transportation Services. In one case, a Mississippi man complained of pain for a day and a half before dying from an ulcer. In another, a Kentucky woman suffered a fatal withdrawal from anti-anxiety medication. And in another, guards mocked a prisoner's pain before he, too, died from a perforated ulcer.

Robert Downs, the chief operating officer of P.T.S., declined to comment on the deaths. He said guards were instructed to contact local officials when a serious medical emergency arises. "Unless it's life or death, we can't open the cage on the vehicle," Mr. Downs said. "We don't know if they're setting us up for something." This concern was echoed by guards at several companies, who said prisoners often feigned illnesses and injuries.

Training for guards, many of whom are military veterans, is often limited to a tutorial on handcuffs and pepper spray and a review of policies and paperwork, leaving them unprepared for the hazards of driving a van full of prisoners. At least 60 prisoners have escaped from private extradition vehicles since 2000, including one who later stabbed a police officer and another who was accused of sexual assault on a minor and is still missing.

The companies are usually paid per prisoner per mile, giving them incentive to pack the vans and take as few breaks as possible. Crashes have killed a dozen prisoners and guards.

Operating primarily across the South and Midwest, guards travel up to weeks at a time along circuitous routes, typically picking up and dropping off prisoners in 15-passenger vans or sometimes minivans retrofitted with interior caging and darkened windows.

These vans do not have prisoner beds, toilets or medical services. Violent felons are mixed with first-time suspects. A plexiglass divider is usually the only thing separating women from men.

At least 14 women have alleged in criminal or civil court since 2000 that they were sexually assaulted by guards while being transported by these companies.

"Just stay in jail. It's better," said Lauren Sierra, 21, who said she was repeatedly sexually assaulted by a guard in 2014 while being transported by U.S. Corrections, a rapidly growing company registered in North Carolina.

Ms. Sierra, who is suing the company, was taken into custody after she faced charges, later dropped, that she used someone else's Bed, Bath & Beyond gift card
. Dustin Baldwin, the executive director of U.S. Corrections, declined to comment beyond saying that the accusations had not been proved.

Because the vans cross state lines, accountability falls into a gray zone. Jurisdictions that hire the companies often disavow responsibility for prisoners not under their direct custody, and federal regulators have largely ignored the industry.

"It's like the airport shuttle from hell," said Zachary Raines, a former P.T.S. guard.

Strained Jails and Budgets

At a time when a swollen United States prison and jail population has strained law enforcement budgets, transport companies offer a significantly cheaper alternative to traditional extradition, in which local deputies are sent miles out of state for one person.

"Some agencies take huge advantage of the taxpayers' money by sending deputies 'on vacation' to extradite an inmate," said Mr. Baldwin of U.S. Corrections, and pay them "a considerable amount of overtime" for doing so. They also have to cover fuel costs or plane tickets and, often, hotel rooms.

Private vans can save considerably by picking up and dropping off other prisoners along the way, charging 75 cents to $1.50 a mile per prisoner.

Corrections departments in 26 states, law enforcement in cities such as Chicago, Atlanta and Las Vegas, and local agencies nationwide use extradition companies. Although about two dozen private prisoner transport companies have registered with the Department of Transportation, only seven have state-level extradition contracts, with P.T.S. having the most by far.

But maintaining tight profit margins depends on relentlessly shaving time and costs on the road, industry veterans said.

"You route the prisoner like a package, but miss a single deadline, and you lose money," said Kent Bradford, a former director of operations for TransCor America, a subsidiary of Corrections Corporation of America, the largest private prison company in the United States. TransCor stopped performing extraditions in 2008 because of liability and cost concerns, but still moves prisoners between C.C.A. locations.

Guards — who earn about $150 to $250 per 24-hour shift, and who rotate driving duty — are generally paid only while on the road. Because they often have to pay out-of-pocket for a hotel room, most said they rarely chose to stop.

Bunking overnight also requires finding a jail willing to offer beds and showers to prisoners, which is difficult because jails do not always want to house unknown prisoners from other jurisdictions.

"I'd have an exhaust fan installed in the hall to get that smell out," said David Osborne, who runs the Daviess County Detention Center in Kentucky, which used to be a P.T.S. hub for transferring and housing prisoners en route.

To keep up with demand, vans drive across as many as a dozen states on a single trip. "The bosses would be on the phone, saying, 'What, you can't do it? You can't push it, you can't make it to the next jail?' " said Fernando Colon, who worked as a guard for two years, first for a company that is now defunct and then for U.S. Corrections.

On most trips, every meal for days is a fast-food sandwich. Water is rationed and bathroom stops limited. Prisoners who cannot wait often urinate in bottles or on themselves, and sometimes defecate on the floor of the van, according to guards and lawsuits.

"People were screaming, complaining, passing out. I threw up," said Roberta Blake, 37, who spent two weeks in 2014 being transported by P.T.S. from California to Alabama, including a week in a stifling van.

Lacking both privacy and sanitary napkins, she had to use a cup in front of the male guards and prisoners when she began menstruating. After another prisoner ripped off her shirt, she spent the rest of the trip in a sports bra. Ms. Blake, whose account was confirmed by two other prisoners in the van, had been arrested on a warrant issued after she failed to return a rental car on time.

Medical Skills Not Required

For some prisoners, the ride ends in serious injury, or even death.

Michael Dykes, who has diabetes, had both of his legs amputated after three days in an Inmate Services Corporation van in July 2012. Mr. Dykes, who was facing theft and fraud charges stemming from a dispute over a construction project, said he had already been in declining health when he got into the van after spending nearly three weeks in a South Carolina jail with poor medical care. But once in transport to Missouri, his condition worsened, he said.

Black sores on his toes were exacerbated by pressure from ankle shackles, a lawsuit alleges, and his repeated requests for medical care were ignored. His insulin, which must be kept cold, was stored on the dashboard in the sun, Mr. Dykes said
.

Randy Cagle Jr., the president of the Arkansas-based Inmate Services Corporation, denied the accusations. "We always follow protocol and get medical information when we pick an inmate up," he wrote in an email. "I am confident that we will be vindicated."

Mr. Cagle said in a brief phone interview that some prisoners lied or sued frivolously. "You are not going to get through this business without hurting people's feelings," he said. "You just have to remember to treat people fair."

When suspects are arrested on a warrant, they often spend considerable time in a local jail before being picked up for extradition. About a dozen guards from several transport companies said jails provided substandard medical care and little information about prisoners' health status or prescribed medications, which the guards are expected to dispense en route. Guards are not required by law to have any medical experience other than training in cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

"They did an hourlong class on their policies, taught us to put on handcuffs, gave us our uniforms and put us on the road. And then we're expected to deal with this stuff," said Kenneth Adams, one of two guards aboard a P.T.S. van in which Denise Isaacs, 54, died in Miami in 2014.

Like Mr. Galack, Ms. Isaacs began experiencing bizarre symptoms while on board: muttering, drooling and gasping. When she was unable to climb back into the van after a stop, the guards phoned P.T.S. headquarters. But their supervisors said to keep going, Mr. Adams told investigators with the Miami-Dade Police Department.

"I would have taken her to the hospital," the other guard, Kirk Westbrooks, said in an interview with The Marshall Project. "I wanted to."

Ms. Isaacs, who had been arrested on charges of violating probation on a theft conviction, died a few hours later in a Taco Bell parking lot. An autopsy later found that she had been experiencing delirium tremens caused by withdrawal from diazepam, an anti-anxiety medication that P.T.S. staff members said they were never informed she was taking
.

The Miami-Dade police closed the investigation after determining that the death was from natural causes.

In January of this year, P.T.S. guards transporting William Culpepper Jr., 36, from Kentucky to Mississippi told officials at a stop at a company jail hub in Missouri that they believed he was faking stomach pains, according to a sheriff's report. Mr. Culpepper, who was wanted for a parole violation, died minutes later from what the coroner handling his case called a "perfectly treatable" perforated ulcer.

It was the second time in two years that a P.T.S. prisoner had died from a perforated ulcer. In 2014, William Weintraub, 47, a former physics professor charged with threatening a South Carolina newspaper over an article he disputed, was found blue and covered in urine in the back of a P.T.S. van when it reached Georgia. Investigators there determined that P.T.S. guards had mocked Mr. Weintraub's complaints of severe stomach pain. The investigation was closed
.

Attempts at Reform

Kyle Bell was no ordinary prisoner.

In 1993, he molested and murdered his 11-year-old North Dakota neighbor, Jeanna North. Six years later, he escaped from a private transport van. His absence was not noticed for nine hours, and guards did not notify the police for another two hours. The escape warranted a segment on "America's Most Wanted."

After the episode, Byron Dorgan, then a Democratic United States senator from North Dakota, introduced a measure to impose controls on the industry. "My colleagues and I were all shocked that a guy and his wife with an S.U.V. could start a business to haul violent offenders around with no requirements," Mr. Dorgan said. The law, commonly known as Jeanna's Act, passed in 2000.

Jeanna's Act mandates that extradition companies must notify local law enforcement immediately after an escape, dress violent prisoners in brightly colored clothing and maintain a ratio of one guard for every six prisoners. It also sets broad standards for training and background checks of guards, and for treatment of prisoners.

But the federal law is almost never enforced
. The Justice Department could identify just one instance: In 2011, a suspect accused of child molestation escaped from an unlocked van in North Dakota, a few hours from where Jeanna had been murdered. Local farmers cleared a cornfield to flush him out. The company, Extradition Transport of America, was fined $80,000 and went out of business.

"Well, it's regulated by the Department of Justice, but I've never seen anybody come out to actually check on us," said Mr. Downs, the chief operating officer of P.T.S. "We're just supposed to follow the guidelines."

Extradition companies are not required to report escapes to federal regulators, and there is no centralized tracking. But a review of dozens of local news accounts shows that since Jeanna's Act was passed, at least 56 prisoners were reported to have escaped from for-profit extradition vehicles. At least 16 were reported to have committed new crimes while on the run.

By comparison, the prison systems of California, Florida and Texas — which together transport more than 800,000 inmates every year, most of them in-state — have each had just one prisoner escape from transport vehicles over the same period.

"We thought we'd closed the door on this," Mr. Dorgan said in reference to the widespread use of small extradition companies and the escapes that have occurred.

While the Department of Transportation has no role in responding to escapes or prisoner mistreatment, it is responsible for monitoring vehicle and driver safety, including whether guards get enough downtime away from the wheel, under the same regulations that govern all passenger carriers.

A Marshall Project review of Department of Transportation records shows that the agency's monitoring is infrequent, and companies are typically given advance notice of an audit. Between 2000 and 2015, records indicate, the department issued fines 20 times, most below $10,000.

While P.T.S. has been registered with the department since at least 2005, the agency did not audit the company until 2009, records show. U.S. Corrections, which was founded in 2014, was audited for the first time in March.

Because passenger carriers are not required to specify to the Transportation Department what kinds of people they move around, a department spokesman said he could not comment on specifics about the prisoner transport industry.

Local news reports and court records show that there have been more than 50 crashes involving private extradition vehicles since 2000. In almost every instance, the prisoners were shackled but not wearing seatbelts, leaving them unable to brace themselves.

In addition to the dozen deaths, a dozen prisoners have suffered injuries to their necks, skulls or spines, according to lawsuits, hospital reports and accident reports obtained from state and local agencies.

Fatigue seems to have played a role in many of the accidents. Of 26 accidents for which a time could be determined, 14 occurred between midnight and 6 a.m.

Mr. Downs, who took over operations at P.T.S. after it merged last year with one of its biggest competitors, the Florida-based U.S. Prisoner Transport, said he had taken steps to make the company safer. The company had already installed sleeper berths for guards in its vans.

Mr. Downs said its agents were now required to stay in a company-paid hotel room every 36 hours, although he said that was not always possible because of scheduling pressures. The company also has three full-size buses and has bought four larger shuttle buses, all with bathrooms on board, in addition to its fleet of nearly 30 vans. Guards are monitored by GPS, and their pay has been increased, Mr. Downs said.

"It's a tough industry," he said. "The profit margins aren't as good as you would think they are." He declined to answer a list of written questions about specific occurrences in the company's vans.

Security Transport Services, which is based in Topeka, Kan., and has been in the business since 1990, says it puts all prisoners in seatbelts and requires agents to stay in a hotel every night. A Kansas sheriff said the company had also partly reimbursed his department for the cost of a manhunt after a 2012 escape, which is required by law in cases of negligence but rarely occurs, according to a survey of law enforcement officials in jurisdictions where escapes occurred.

But the company charges about 30 percent more than its competitors, said Tom Rork, its vice president. Security Transport Services has contracts with three state corrections departments, compared with nearly 20 held by P.T.S., and it recently lost its Pennsylvania contract to U.S. Corrections.

P.T.S. says in federal filings that it has "contracts or relationships" with about 800 agencies. It is also poised to acquire U.S. Corrections, one of its main competitors, next month, according to a filing with the national Surface Transportation Board.

Answers Are Elusive

After Mr. Galack's death, his brother, Robert, made repeated calls to the Tennessee authorities, trying to determine what had happened. "I mean, he was fully in shackles and ended up dead?" he said.

It was hard to find answers. Only one prisoner in the van, Chelsie Hogsett, told investigators that Mr. Galack had been beaten. Another, Joseph Allen, did not confirm the account until a later civil suit.

The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation decided within eight hours of arriving at the scene that if a crime had occurred, it had happened in Georgia. It sent the van on its way. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation declined to follow up, records show.

The medical examiner noted Mr. Galack's injuries — a broken rib, bruises on his head, torso, arms and legs, a broken tooth and cuts around his nose and eyes — but did not believe they had led to his death.

The investigation was determined to be "as thorough as the circumstances warranted," said Josh DeVine, a spokesman for the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.

Anthony Dwyer, the chief deputy of the sheriff's office in Butler County, Ohio, said he had been told only that a prisoner had died en route, not that a beating might have been involved. "It wasn't really our responsibility," he said. He said he monitored P.T.S.'s performance by speaking to prisoners when they arrive.

Darnell Ball, one of the guards in the van that transported Mr. Galack, declined to comment, citing a confidentiality agreement. The other, Leroy Creese, did not respond to two attempts to contact him at an address believed to be his home. A P.T.S. official said in a deposition taken in a civil lawsuit that Mr. Galack had sustained the injuries in a fall in the van.

This spring, Mr. Galack's family won a confidential settlement against P.T.S. But Mr. Galack's son, Jordan, found it paltry consolation. Now 20, he had talked to his father every day on the phone and lost 30 pounds after his father's death.

Kristin Galack said she had never had any idea what her ex-husband would face when he was arrested. "Steve and the other people on these vans, they've made mistakes," Ms. Galack said. "But that doesn't mean he couldn't come back from it. People do."


Three months after Mr. Galack was found in the back of the van, P.T.S. sent Butler County a bill for $1,061 — the cost of the 752 miles he was transported before dying.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on October 09, 2016, 07:30:26 AM
Not the sort of thing that Palm Springs generally creates (inter)national news about!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/08/three-police-officers-shot-palm-springs-california

QuoteTwo police officers dead and one injured in Palm Springs shooting

Two California police officers were shot dead on Saturday while responding to a family disturbance in the town of Palm Springs, and a third injured as police tried to bring a suspect into custody, officials said.

Following a prolonged hunt for the suspect overnight on Saturday, the county sheriff's department said on Twitter early on Sunday morning that the suspect had been taken into custody.

The Palm Springs police chief, Brian Reyes, had told reporters at a press conference on Saturday afternoon that officials had set up a "containment area" for several blocks around the house where the shooting took place.

Reyes named the dead officers as Jose Vega and Lesley Zerebny.

Several Swat teams were involved in the search for the suspect, who police said could be outside a perimeter of armoured cars, police cruisers and dozens of officers. Residents had been told to evacuate and to not answer their doors.

"I'm awake in a nightmare right now," Reyes said. "That's me, but as the chief of police I've got to step forward and stay focused. We will do what we need to do."

He added: "It was a simple family disturbance and [the suspect] elected to open fire on a few of the guardians of the city."

Reyes said the three were standing near the front door speaking with the man, "trying to negotiate with the suspect", when he suddenly shot them.

Zerebny, 27, had been with the department for about 18 months and only recently returned from maternity leave after giving birth to a now four-month-old daughter. Vega, the father of eight, was a 35-year veteran who planned to retire in December. He had been working overtime on his day off on Saturday. The wounded officer's name was not released.

Earlier on Saturday, Sgt William Hutchinson told reporters police were called because of "some kind of family disturbance". He said that though there was no active shootings situation, "we are actively looking for a suspect at this time".

"Do not answer your doors for anybody," he warned.

In a statement, the police did not say what condition the surviving officer was in. The three were shot near the Sunrise Racquet Club on Sunrise Way. Photographs and videos posted on social media showed dozens of officers around a single home, where it was thought the suspect may have built a barricade.

A spokesman for the police department did not immediately return a phone call or email requesting details.

Witnesses told the local Desert Sun that they heard 10 to 20 gun shots before 2pm local time.

"It sounded like fireworks at first," neighbour Juan Garciano told the paper. "I came out of the house and saw police start to block the roads."

A law enforcement source speaking on condition of anonymity told the Los Angeles Times that one of the officers was in critical condition.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/a75baa4f6d7553e57a837752f8283141fce4214d/0_0_3036_2138/master/3036.jpg?w=620&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=0ec0bebeb11fb0cf1ef79dba396d63a7)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2016, 08:29:23 AM
QuoteSwat teams

lol, Guardian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 09, 2016, 11:36:35 AM
QuoteCrammed around him were 10 other people, both men and women, all handcuffed and shackled at the waist and ankles.

Sounds like Friday night play session at Casa Brain.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 13, 2016, 06:57:52 PM
derstormfront's wife was wondering why he was so frisky last night, what with the election several days ago...:yeah:

QuoteMistrial for officer who killed a black man while wearing Confederate flag shirt (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/11/12/officer-who-killed-a-black-man-while-wearing-confederate-flag-shirt-goes-free/?tid=pm_national_pop)
By Cleve R. Wootson Jr. November 12 at 3:46 PM 

An Ohio judge has declared a mistrial in the case of a former University of Cincinnati police officer who shot and killed a black man who had been pulled over for a missing front license plate last year.

The jury of 10 whites and two blacks had been deliberating for more than 25 hours since Wednesday, according to the Associated Press. On Saturday morning Judge Megan Shanahan declared the jury was hopelessly deadlocked.

Ray Tensing, 26, faced life in prison after being charged with murder in the killing of Sam DuBose near the university.

The officer testified that his arm was stuck in the car as DuBose tried to speed away. Tensing said he feared he was going to be killed and fired one shot, striking DuBose in the head.

Tensing was fired by the University of Cincinnati. At trial, prosecutors revealed that Tensing was wearing a T-shirt with a Confederate flag on it beneath his uniform.
[/b]

DuBose's killing added Cincinnati to the list of cities where officers have fatally shot unarmed black civilians. Tensing was indicted almost a year after another black man, Michael Brown, was killed by a white police officer in Ferguson, Mo.

Police killed 991 people in the line of duty in 2015, according to a Washington Post database of police shootings. So far this year, officers have killed 832 people.

Body camera footage of the fatal interaction between DuBose and Tensing was released last summer. In the video, DuBose tells Tensing that he is licensed to drive but doesn't have his driver's license on him.

"Be straight up with me, are you suspended?" Tensing asks.

Tensions rise when Tensing asks DuBose to take off his seat belt, apparently to arrest him.

"I ain't even do nothing," DuBose says, and he starts to turn on the car's ignition.

Tensing yells "Stop! Stop!" then he thrusts the weapon through the open car window and fires a single round.

In an interview shortly after the killing, Hamilton County prosecutor Joe Deters told reporters: "This is the first time that we've thought this is without question a murder."


The officer, Deters said, "wasn't dealing with someone who was wanted for murder. He was dealing with someone who didn't have a front license plate. This was, in the vernacular, a pretty chicken-crap stop. I'm treating him like a murderer."

In a statement, the university extended its thoughts and prayers to everyone affected by the shooting.

"We remain steadfast in our commitment to building a just community anchored in trust, care, integrity and equity," interim president Beverly J. Davenport said in a statement tweeted out by the university. "Our campus and our community will come together to listen, to heal and to partner for positive and lasting change."

    Statement from @UCPrezDav: pic.twitter.com/oL7zpPPfNN

    — U of Cincinnati (@uofcincy) November 12, 2016

Last year protesters descended on the university's campus, calling the shooting unjustified. And on Saturday, hours after the mistrial was declared, demonstrators briefly blocked Cincinnati's downtown streetcar line.

Deters told the AP that jurors were leaning toward convicting Tensing on a lesser charge, but couldn't agree. Shanahan set a new hearing date for Nov. 28 to determine whether the case will be retried.

Execution video embedded in the article.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on November 13, 2016, 08:36:18 PM
Don't worry, I am sure after the internal coup by sane Republicans and after Trump reveals himself to be different from his persona of the last 70 years, stories like this will only be a bad memory. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on November 14, 2016, 09:47:15 AM
Sane Republicans?  What is this?  Did we beocome a forum about cryptozoology over the weekend?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 14, 2016, 09:50:01 AM
Quote from: viper37 on November 14, 2016, 09:47:15 AM
Sane Republicans?  What is this?  Did we beocome a forum about cryptozoology over the weekend?

There was enough sarcasm dripping out of Oex's post that I was afraid I might drown.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 14, 2016, 09:50:44 AM
Quote from: viper37 on November 14, 2016, 09:47:15 AM
Sane Republicans?  What is this?  Did we beocome a forum about cryptozoology over the weekend?

<WHOOOSH>
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Lettow77 on November 14, 2016, 10:14:10 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 09, 2016, 03:57:50 AM

The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation decided within eight hours of arriving at the scene that if a crime had occurred, it had happened in Georgia. It sent the van on its way. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation declined to follow up, records show.


Getting right to the heart of what really matters, I see.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 16, 2016, 02:22:38 PM
Cop charged with manslaughter in the killing of Philando Castille during a traffic stop last summer.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/16/jeronimo_yanez_officer_who_killed_philando_castile_charged_with_manslaughter.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2016, 07:48:48 PM
A Bengals win, Pizzagate, and now this.  Your pet causes are on a roll, derSkittles. :yeah:  And it's only Monday.

Quote
Jurors Unable to Agree in Trial of South Carolina Officer Who Shot Walter Scott (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/us/walter-scott-michael-slager-north-charleston.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0)
.

Imagine that.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott.jpeg)

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/04/08/us/08SHOOTING5/08SHOOTING5-master315.jpg)

#ThisIsWhatTotalFearLooksLike


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 09:19:59 PM
One juror. One fucking douchebag who refused to convict no matter what.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2016, 09:35:48 PM
You would think that, even if shooting him 8 times in the back while he's running away wasn't enough, that maybe picking up the Taser and dropping it near the body to construct a false report would get through someone's head, but hey.  That's the South for you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 09:42:38 PM
https://gfycat.com/LightFeminineEasternglasslizard

At least this guy is going to jail for a little while anyway.

Convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Apparently he accidently pulled out his gun and shot the guy twice.

Then when the rest of the cops showed up moments later, he told them that the guy in the vehicle was refusing to get out. Didn't mention that the reason he was refusing to get out was that he had shot and killed him until after the EMTs showed up and noticed some bullet holes in him.

"Oh yeah, I might have shot him...."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 05, 2016, 09:43:32 PM
There is at least still hope.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2016, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 09:42:38 PM
https://gfycat.com/LightFeminineEasternglasslizard

At least this guy is going to jail for a little while anyway.

Convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Apparently he accidently pulled out his gun and shot the guy twice.

Then when the rest of the cops showed up moments later, he told them that the guy in the vehicle was refusing to get out. Didn't mention that the reason he was refusing to get out was that he had shot and killed him until after the EMTs showed up and noticed some bullet holes in him.

"Oh yeah, I might have shot him...."

He got off lucky.  Nothing involuntary about that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 05, 2016, 09:50:02 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2016, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 09:42:38 PM
https://gfycat.com/LightFeminineEasternglasslizard

At least this guy is going to jail for a little while anyway.

Convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Apparently he accidently pulled out his gun and shot the guy twice.

Then when the rest of the cops showed up moments later, he told them that the guy in the vehicle was refusing to get out. Didn't mention that the reason he was refusing to get out was that he had shot and killed him until after the EMTs showed up and noticed some bullet holes in him.

"Oh yeah, I might have shot him...."

He got off lucky.  Nothing involuntary about that.

Accidentally pulled his gun. He mistook his gun for ......what. What a fucking knob.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 05, 2016, 09:55:12 PM
"Huh.  Flashlight usually goes on after two clicks.  Also, doesn't that extremely loud bang."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2016, 10:01:41 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on December 05, 2016, 09:50:02 PM
Accidentally pulled his gun. He mistook his gun for ......what. What a fucking knob.

I don't get it, even in crazy ass goofy Baltimore, it was hammered into our heads that a wrong shoot meant your ass.  If you were lucky, it could only mean your job.  And this was long before cameras were everywhere.

Then again, we weren't trained to be afraid all the time.  That whole "your job is to go home safe every night" bullshit has turned law enforcement into a mess of bunker-mentality foxhole fear.  I don't recall us being afraid of shit---except of other cops, but that is a different story.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 05, 2016, 10:02:41 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 05, 2016, 09:55:12 PM
"Huh.  Flashlight usually goes on after two clicks.  Also, doesn't that extremely loud bang."

:lol: I know, he thought it was his ASP.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 11:48:48 PM
There is a longer actual video of the incident you can find if you care to...

So the backstory here is that he was chasing the truck, who was driving very fast. The driver was drunk.

The truck lost control, and rolled. The passenger, who is the drivers ex-wife, was ejected from the vehicle. If you look at the video clip, or the longer one, her body is actually in the foreground of the scene, it is blurred out though - she is behind that blurry square to the right of the cop.

So the cop comes up on the accident, the women is moaning on the ground he walks up, the driver starts to climb out, the cop shoots him twice, and then goes to the truck and looks inside.

The woman is bleeding to death on the ground.

Moments later, more cops show up. The shooting is very hard to watch, but the cluster fuck in the minutes afterwards is almost worse...the other cops don't know that he shot someone, and he is kind of walking around, and I think he is *fucking looking for his spent shell casings!*.

The other cops are telling shot driver to get out, he is telling them he refuses to get out, while kind of looking around on the ground. I don't know if he actually thought that if he could find the shell casings, maybe nobody would notice the driver had been shot???

Meanwhile, the woman is moaning and bleeding to death. She would eventually die as well, and it didn't really look like any of the cops do much of anything to actually try to help her. Maybe that is SOP? Afraid they might harm her more than help if they try to move her, or stop her bleeding? Not sure.

The entire fucking thing is just a tragic comedy of the first order.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 06, 2016, 12:01:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 11:48:48 PM
Meanwhile, the woman is moaning and bleeding to death. She would eventually die as well, and it didn't really look like any of the cops do much of anything to actually try to help her. Maybe that is SOP? Afraid they might harm her more than help if they try to move her, or stop her bleeding? Not sure.

The entire fucking thing is just a tragic comedy of the first order.

A lot of agencies have SOP that prevent police from rendering first aid--we had to get certified per mandatory state requirements, but it was department SOP not to render first aid, so we would let our first aid certifications expire.

I was reading the backstory on that after you posted it, and found it interesting that the DA was originally NOT going to file charges for this "accident", despite the video.  And people wonder why people don't expect justice from the system in cases like this.  If that dash cam was never there, nothing ever would've happened to him.  And it turns out, it almost didn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 06, 2016, 02:29:47 AM
Nothing will change as long as the best case scenario is that the shooter gets put on trial.  Every single cop who has a hand in falsifying the police report, letting others do it, or takes part in "getting everyone's stories straight" should be charged as part of conspiracy against the public.  Because that's exactly what it is.

The cop that shot the guy in the back was not convicted, not yet anyway.  The other cop who watched him drop the taser next to the dead guy hasn't even been charged, or disciplined in any other way as far as I'm aware.  Take the guy with that cellphone away and the murdering cop would be lauded as a hero, thanks to the guy who quietly watched the murderer plant his taser.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on December 06, 2016, 03:31:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 05, 2016, 09:42:38 PM
https://gfycat.com/LightFeminineEasternglasslizard

At least this guy is going to jail for a little while anyway.

Convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Apparently he accidently pulled out his gun and shot the guy twice.

Then when the rest of the cops showed up moments later, he told them that the guy in the vehicle was refusing to get out. Didn't mention that the reason he was refusing to get out was that he had shot and killed him until after the EMTs showed up and noticed some bullet holes in him.

"Oh yeah, I might have shot him...."

Thanks for the snuff film...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 06, 2016, 07:50:20 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 06, 2016, 02:29:47 AM
Nothing will change as long as the best case scenario is that the shooter gets put on trial.  Every single cop who has a hand in falsifying the police report, letting others do it, or takes part in "getting everyone's stories straight" should be charged as part of conspiracy against the public.  Because that's exactly what it is.

The cop that shot the guy in the back was not convicted, not yet anyway.  The other cop who watched him drop the taser next to the dead guy hasn't even been charged, or disciplined in any other way as far as I'm aware.  Take the guy with that cellphone away and the murdering cop would be lauded as a hero, thanks to the guy who quietly watched the murderer plant his taser.

Agreed
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2016, 06:32:31 PM
Finally.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-government-finally-has-a-realistic-estimate-of-killings-by-police/

Quote

The Government Finally Has A Realistic Estimate Of Killings By Police

By Carl Bialik

About 1,200 people were killed by police officers in the U.S. in the 12 months that ended in May, according to a federal report released Thursday. That number is much larger than government counts of police killings for earlier years — and is much more in line with private estimates.

Criminal justice researchers have long argued that official counts of police killings, which rely on voluntary reports from local police departments, are woefully incomplete. Over the past decade, about half a dozen efforts by activists, volunteers and media organizations have sprung up in response to widespread outrage about high-profile killings by police officers to try to fill the breach using information from media reports and other sources. Their annual death toll estimates since 2013 have generally ranged from 1,100 to 1,400, more than twice as high as the counts from official government sources.



Thursday's report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics is effectively an acknowledgment that the amateurs were right. It used media reports to fill in the gaps in data provided by law-enforcement agencies and reached a figure similar to those from the private groups.1


The corroboration by BJS of other outfits' numbers "speaks to the power of some of what we've been collecting and what so many others have been collecting — that it's really been able to approximate those numbers," said Samuel Sinyangwe, who leads one of the volunteer efforts, Mapping Police Violence, and co-founded Campaign Zero, a group that promotes policy ideas that it says can reduce the number of people killed by police officers. Sinyangwe said the new estimate from BJS "sounds correct." Mapping Police Violence lists 1,198 people killed by police during the period covered by the BJS report; the Guardian, which has been counting police killings since last year, lists 1,127.

Sinyangwe and other activists worry, however, that the government's new efforts to collect better data on police killings won't continue under Donald Trump and his nominee for attorney general, Jeff Sessions. If the Senate confirms Sessions, "I am skeptical about whether they will move forward with this," Sinyangwe said. Spokespeople for Trump and Sessions didn't return emails seeking comment.

The inadequacy of official statistics on police violence has drawn national attention since Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson, who is white, killed Michael Brown, a black man, in August 2014. Brown's death and other high-profile police killings raised the profile of the Black Lives Matter movement and sparked a nationwide debate over police violence. But without reliable data, researchers couldn't answer even basic questions about who was killed by police or whether the number of such deaths was rising or falling. FBI Director James Comey — whose agency, like BJS, is part of the Justice Department — last year called the lack of good data "ridiculous."

Now the government is trying to improve its data. Last year, BJS researchers found that the agency's existing methods of counting arrest-related deaths — basically, asking police departments to report totals — were probably missing about half of all cases. (Some researchers think even more were being missed.) Thursday's report builds on that research by trying to find the deaths that were missing from official counts, using several methods.

First, researchers used automated searches to identify media articles and webpages that might contain information on arrest-related deaths — including shootings and other intentional killings (which BJS classifies as homicides), as well as suicides, accidents and deaths by natural cause. They then sorted those reports manually to find the ones to investigate further. Researchers also took advantage of the BJS's existing contacts with the 18,000 local law-enforcement agencies around the country to go further than the nongovernmental efforts can. They contacted local law-enforcement agencies and medical examiners or coroners involved with deaths over a three-month period to confirm that the deaths happened and determine whether they should be counted; agencies and the researchers sometimes disagreed. (For example, some agencies resisted counting suicides or accidents that killed someone being pursued by police officers.)

The researchers also asked local agencies whether there had been any deaths that weren't reflected in media accounts. That allowed them to estimate how many deaths their media-based counts were missing — information that BJS then applied to a full year of data to arrive at its annual death-toll estimate of 1,900, including 1,200 homicides. Deaths by suicide, accident and natural causes were more likely than homicides to get no media coverage.

"This hybrid approach was shown to, we think, really do a great job improving our coverage," said Michael Planty, who co-wrote the report, is a deputy director at BJS and has been working for five years on measurement of arrest-related deaths. (The BJS counts deaths after arrests separately. In other reports released Thursday that were based on analyses that didn't use new techniques, BJS reported that in 2014, 1,053 people died in local jails and 3,927 died in state and federal prisons — both figures higher than a year earlier.)

Using media accounts to supplement official reports has become a common research tactic in the grim accounting of terrorism, school shootings and police misconduct. Since 2009, the BJS has used what Planty called an "ad hoc" process of analyzing media accounts to improve its collection of police killings by identifying cases that agencies weren't proactively reporting.

Speed-reading death reports and turning them into data is difficult and psychologically taxing work. The BJS contracted with RTI International, a nonprofit research organization based in North Carolina, to conduct much of the research. Between June and August 2015, a dozen RTI researchers read through and logged roughly 150,000 media reports that potentially contained information about a death. To try to reduce strain, "we limited folks to no more than 30 percent of their time a week," said Duren Banks, a senior research criminologist at RTI and co-author of the new report. "It takes a little bit of a thick skin to read about this for hours on end."

It also isn't cheap. Even after researchers found ways to dramatically reduce the number of media articles that their algorithm flags, the work costs $40,000 a month, Planty said.

It's not clear how the Justice Department will collect police-killings data in the future. The department hasn't committed to adopting the methods described in the new report for its official statistics. (On Thursday afternoon, the department said it would release more information about its data-collection plans on Friday morning.) BJS has more work ahead of it, including reports planned for next year delving into the characteristics of people killed by police — other efforts have found that black Americans are killed at a rate much higher than their share of the population — and comparisons of its data with nongovernmental counts. The FBI is also mounting a parallel effort to get better data.

Activists worry that improving data on police killings, which has proceeded at a pace that many have found disappointing under President Obama, won't be a priority in a Trump administration. This past summer, Trump blamed Black Lives Matter, without any evidence, for instigating killings of police officers, an issue he emphasized much more strongly in his campaign than killings by police officers. Planty, when asked whether he sensed that the change of administrations would affect BJS's work in the area, said, "No."

Even if BJS does proceed with more complete data collection, it won't necessarily replace private estimates. Sinyangwe said he plans to continue his work regardless, because unlike BJS, which only aggregates deaths for statistical purposes, he and other independent counters provide details on individual deaths, allowing for more granular analysis.

D. Brian Burghart, who founded and runs another police killings database, Fatal Encounters, said the BJS effort was long overdue. He said he started his site because he "realized that the internet meant this information could no longer be hidden." If the government improves the way it collects data, Burghart said, he would be happy to step aside after nearly five years.

"I want to be obsolete," Burghart said. "This is the most boring, repetitive work that you can imagine. It's horrible. I research violent deaths eight to 14 hours a day. So, yeah, it sucks. I'd be totally happy for [BJS] to do that." He added, "I don't know what's taken them this long to get there, to be honest."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2016, 06:50:46 PM
I skimmed an Atlantic article about this NC special session and this particular Slate! article doesn't seem to be too Huffed up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 15, 2016, 06:56:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2016, 06:50:46 PM
I skimmed an Atlantic article about this NC special session and this particular Slate! article doesn't seem to be too Huffed up.

Wrong thread.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2016, 07:17:42 PM
:bleeding:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2016, 04:50:50 PM
Surpise, suprise, suprise! (http://www.wbaltv.com/article/police-release-video-in-fatal-officer-involved-shooting-near-coppin-state-university/8508219)

QuotePolice said two vehicles were traveling from the Mondawmin Mall area, and an unmarked police car was stopped behind one of the cars.

Investigators said a passenger got out of one of the vehicles and shot at the other car. The police officer then got out of his vehicle and fatally shot the gunman, identified Friday as Lavar Montray Douglas, 18, police said. He was not a student at Coppin.

https://youtu.be/mDTXOUjLl7E

QuoteHe was not a student at Coppin.

Obviously not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 24, 2016, 01:32:26 PM
Breaking news. Canadian police in pursuit of criminals. :o
Get em boys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wxRrUKHglI
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 12, 2017, 02:29:59 AM
Disgusting.  :mad:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/10/appeals_court_rules_homeless_man_cannot_sue_cop_who_let_police_dog_maul.html

QuoteHomeless Man Has No Right to Sue Cop Who Let Police Dog Maul Him

By Mark Joseph Stern


THE SLATEST
YOUR NEWS COMPANION
MARCH 10 2017 1:35 PM
Appeals Court: Homeless Man Has No Right to Sue Cop Who Let Police Dog Maul Him
By Mark Joseph Stern
591631932-karl-and-patrol-dog-iso-after-successfully-containing
A police dog (not the dog in question).
Fiona Goodall/Getty Images

On Thursday, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit issued one of the most gruesome and inhumane decisions in recent memory, holding that the Constitution does not necessarily require law enforcement officers to stop police dogs from brutally mauling innocent people. If it stands, the decision would ensure that a homeless man who was disfigured by a police dog will not be able to sue a police officer who knew the man was innocent and allowed the dog to continue attacking him. It is an astonishing ruling that defies all logic and illustrates the grave threat that qualified immunity poses to constitutional rights today.

The grisly facts of the case are uncontested. One night in 2010, Officer Terence Garrison and his police dog, Bikkel, were tracking a robbery suspect in High Point, North Carolina. Bikkel led Garrison to an abandoned house, then attacked a man crouched behind a bush near the front stoop. Garrison quickly realized that the man did not match the physical description of the suspect. (In fact, he was Christopher Maney, a homeless man accused of no crime.) But Garrison decided that the man might still be dangerous, so he demanded that Maney show his hands before calling off Bikkel. But Maney was using his hands to try to protect himself against the dog and pleaded with Garrison to stop Bikkel's attack, insisting that he had done nothing wrong. After allowing the mauling to continue for 10 seconds, Garrison finally told Bikkel to stop. He then put Maney in handcuffs and called medical support.

Maney arrived at the hospital in critical condition. Bikkel had bit the top of his head, tearing away a two-square-inch section of hair, skin, and tissue that ultimately required a nearly 16-inch skin graft. Deep bites on Maney's arm and thigh led to a brachial artery blood clot and profuse bleeding, bruising, and swelling.

After convalescing, Maney sued Garrison, alleging a violation of his Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable seizures. Under the Fourth Amendment, a dog bite qualifies as a seizure of the person, and Maney argued that Garrison prolonged the biting for an unreasonable amount of time. But the 4th Circuit concluded that Garrison was shielded from the lawsuit by qualified immunity, meaning he did not violate a "clearly established" constitutional right. According to the majority, Fourth Amendment precedents do not unambiguously prohibit officers from "prolong[ing] a dog bite seizure until a subject complies with orders to surrender." The majority analogized the mauling to a "Terry stop," during which an officer may briefly stop and frisk individuals on the basis of "reasonable suspicion." Garrison, the majority concluded, had really just engaged in a type of Terry stop in which "the classic Terry tableau is replaced by something more dynamic."

As Judge Pamela Harris explained in dissent, this analysis is disturbing nonsense:

Maney was not himself suspected of any crime, armed or not, and he did not attempt to flee or to resist. Nevertheless, Officer Garrison deliberately subjected him to a canine attack in order to rule out any possibility that he might pose a threat. Whether or not a more customary Terry stop might have been authorized, I think it is clear enough that the circumstances did not justify the sustained mauling of Maney. Clear enough, that is, to warrant denial of qualified immunity to Garrison on Maney's excessive force claim.

Harris noted that the Terry analysis is especially ridiculous because "there was not reasonable suspicion sufficient to support a Terry stop" in the first place. Just before encountering Maney, Garrison had walked through a homeless camp just 150 yards away. "He was aware," Harris wrote, "that there was a perfectly innocent explanation for Maney's presence near the abandoned house. And I would not count against Maney his failure to stand and identify himself, which Maney—quite reasonably, in hindsight—attributes to his fear that a sudden movement might prompt a dog attack. Citizens are under no free-standing obligation to identify themselves to the police."

In other words, Garrison did not have sufficient justification to stop Maney in the first place. And he certainly didn't have a good reason to do what he did next—"intentionally prolong a violent assault on Maney to determine whether he might pose a threat." In reality, Harris wrote, Garrison had clearly utilized excessive force under longstanding Supreme Court precedent, inflicting objectively unreasonable and disproportionate violence that "no reasonable officer" would consider to be legal. Thus, Harris argued, Garrison should not be protected by qualified immunity.

Harris is obviously correct, but her colleagues in the majority cannot be entirely blamed for disregarding Maney's constitutional rights. The Supreme Court has expanded qualified immunity—a doctrine of dubious constitutional provenance—to such an extreme that police officers routinely get away with acts of shocking brutality. It has grown increasingly difficult for victims of such violence to hold officers accountable in court; a clever judge can almost always find a reason why some particular barbarity was not "clearly" forbidden by the Fourth Amendment when it occurred. Maney is only the latest victim of qualified immunity run amok. The list will continue growing apace.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on March 12, 2017, 12:18:57 PM
Nobody cares anymore. It's the era of Trump.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 17, 2017, 07:18:01 PM
Qualified immunity strikes again.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on March 17, 2017, 08:43:00 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 17, 2017, 07:18:01 PM
Qualified immunity strikes again.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

I'm less concerned about the right to sue than I am about the fact that police officers can literally get away with murder.  Richard Sylvester should have already met Sparky and be immune to lawsuits because he is dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 17, 2017, 08:49:45 PM
I like how on cop cars, "To protect and serve" is in quotes, like they're being sarcastic.
--Neil Brennan
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 21, 2017, 12:57:13 AM
Christ, this is the worst thing posted in here by far. :bleeding::bleeding::bleeding:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-wont-charge-prison-guards-who-boiled-schizophrenic-black-man-darren-rainey-to-death-9213190

Quote

Rundle Won't Charge Prison Guards Who Allegedly Boiled Schizophrenic Black Man to Death

Friday, March 17, 2017 at 6:53 p.m.

By Jerry Iannelli

On June 23, 2012, Darren Rainey, a schizophrenic man serving time for cocaine possession, was thrown into a prison shower at the Dade Correctional Institution. The water was turned up to 180 degrees — hot enough to steep tea or cook ramen noodles.

As his punishment, four corrections officers — John Fan Fan, Cornelius Thompson, Ronald Clarke, and Edwina Williams — kept Rainey in that shower for two full hours. Rainey was heard screaming, "Please take me out! I can't take it anymore!" and kicking the shower door. Inmates said prison guards laughed at Rainey and shouted, "Is it hot enough?"

Rainey died inside that shower. He was found crumpled on the floor. When his body was pulled out, nurses said burns covered 90 percent of his body. A nurse said his body temperature was too high to register with a thermometer. And his skin fell off at the touch.

But in an unconscionable decision, Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle's office announced Friday that the four guards who oversaw what amounted to a medieval-era boiling will not be charged with a crime.


"The shower was itself neither dangerous nor unsafe,'' the report says. "The evidence does not show that Rainey's well-being was grossly disregarded by the correctional staff.''

Rundle's office announced the results of its investigation in a Friday-afternoon news dump, the kind that public officials typically use to bury unflattering news or information. Rundle's office would clearly like this case to vanish over the weekend — but the facts are so inhumanely grotesque that the decision should haunt the office for eternity.

Rundle took over as Miami-Dade's top prosecutor in the 1990s after Janet Reno left to join the Bill Clinton administration. Rundle has remained the state attorney since then. In that time, she has never charged a Miami police officer for an on-duty shooting.

It's important to note that all Rundle had to do to show she cared was to charge the prison guards with a crime. It's up to a jury to assess guilt. Despite the fact that a man died in a shower and that multiple witnesses said they saw burns on his body and heard screaming, Rundle didn't think there was enough evidence to bring criminal charges.

Miami Herald investigative reporter Julie K. Brown spoke to multiple witnesses, jail inmates, and staff members, who said the showers were routinely used to scald inmates who acted out or upset the guards. Brown led a 2015 investigative series into abuses at Miami-area prisons. That series led to lawsuits, firings, rule changes, and legislative hearings. But Rundle hasn't filed criminal charges.

The New Yorker magazine published an investigation about Rainey's death. The magazine detailed how a whistleblower, Harriet Krzykowski, was bullied, harassed, and forced into therapy after trying to speak out about abuses at the jail.


Rundle's 72-page close-out memo leans heavily on an autopsy report that has been roundly criticized by civil rights advocates. The report claims Rainey was not found with burns when he died. Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida American Civil Liberties Association, has said that the report, which was leaked to the media during the investigation, showed that a federal investigation was needed.

Rundle's office, however, noted that one Miami-Dade County cop reported that nurses said Rainey's body had "red areas" on it and that his skin was, indeed, "slipping off" after he was removed from the shower. Rundle's memo said, however, that this could have instead been due to "body decomposition" rather than burns.

"In response to specific questions by Detective Sanchez regarding burns, Dr. [Emma] Lew advised that Rainey did not sustain any obvious external injuries, and, particularly, that there were no thermal injuries (burns) of any kind on his body," the report says. It then adds that from 2012 to 2014, no cause of death was determined.

This was complicated, however, by the fact that Rainey's family members say they were pressured to rapidly cremate his body. If further evidence of a murder existed, it has long been burnt to ashes.

One witness quoted in the Herald and New Yorker pieces, Harold Hempstead, was an inmate serving time for felony robbery. Hempstead kept a diary and reported that he heard Rainey's screams.

But Rundle's Friday memo took great pains to disqualify Hempstead's diary as inaccurate and unreliable. Multiple inmates told Rundle's office they heard screams, but the state attorney claimed the accounts were "inconsistent" and could not be trusted.

"Accordingly and in conclusion," Rundle wrote, "the facts and evidence in this case do not meet the required elements for the filing of any criminal charge."

She then signed her name.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on March 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM
Tim, this is horrible, but no one who matters cares about what happens to prison inmates, and this story won't make a difference. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 21, 2017, 01:26:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM
Tim, this is horrible, but no one who matters cares about what happens to prison inmates, and this story won't make a difference. :(

That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on March 21, 2017, 02:16:03 AM
Florida was nice when I was there, I didn't see any boilings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 21, 2017, 06:32:11 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 21, 2017, 01:26:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM
Tim, this is horrible, but no one who matters cares about what happens to prison inmates, and this story won't make a difference. :(

That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.

Let's talk about how this story won't make a difference then.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on March 21, 2017, 08:33:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 21, 2017, 02:16:03 AM
Florida was nice when I was there, I didn't see any boilings.

Depends on where you go.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on March 21, 2017, 09:09:47 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 21, 2017, 02:16:03 AM
Florida was nice when I was there

What definition of the word 'nice' are you using? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on March 21, 2017, 03:22:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM
Tim, this is horrible, but no one who matters cares about what happens to prison inmates, and this story won't make a difference. :(

People don't much care what happens to the mentally ill, either.  This guy had a trifecta working against him--convict, crazy, and black.

But if the allegations are true, Seedy's right--this is the worst thing posted in this thread.  One thing to just flat-out shoot someone, but they tortured this guy to death over a 2-hour period.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on March 21, 2017, 03:23:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 21, 2017, 09:09:47 AM
Quote from: The Brain on March 21, 2017, 02:16:03 AM
Florida was nice when I was there

What definition of the word 'nice' are you using? :unsure:

Flat and hot. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on March 21, 2017, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: dps on March 21, 2017, 03:22:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM
Tim, this is horrible, but no one who matters cares about what happens to prison inmates, and this story won't make a difference. :(

People don't much care what happens to the mentally ill, either.  This guy had a trifecta working against him--convict, crazy, and black.

But if the allegations are true, Seedy's right--this is the worst thing posted in this thread.  One thing to just flat-out shoot someone, but they tortured this guy to death over a 2-hour period.

There's several stories of people dying in police custody scattered throughout this thread. Again, this is a horrific story, and likely the worst in this thread, but the populace, by and large, won't care. Which is depressing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 21, 2017, 05:31:51 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM
Tim, this is horrible, but no one who matters cares about what happens to prison inmates, and this story won't make a difference. :(

What do mean?  Surely the federal authorities will investigate under the leadership of that paragon of civil rights AG Jefferson Bedford Forrest Johnny Reb Beauregard Sessions?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2017, 05:48:54 PM
Police officer found guilty of manslaughter for killing six year old boy in car chase

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/louisiana-jury-finds-officer-guilty-fatal-shooting-6-year-old-n738431
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2017, 06:15:56 PM
Next time, shoot a black 6 year old and you'll walk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on March 29, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Whoops. Cops kill off duty cop on his birthday.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/authorities-cops-shoot-one-of-their-own-during-celebration/ar-BBz1DUD?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartanntp (http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/authorities-cops-shoot-one-of-their-own-during-celebration/ar-BBz1DUD?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartanntp)

also, why do you think he got pissed? i'm think potential threesome gone bad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 29, 2017, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
also, why do you think he got pissed? i'm think potential threesome gone bad.

Possible, but not probable.  Not when a threesome can be had with some holster sniffers after a couple hours' effort at the local cop bar.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on March 29, 2017, 04:58:36 PM
Tell me again why you left the profession?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 29, 2017, 06:23:47 PM
I was overqualified.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on March 29, 2017, 06:40:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 29, 2017, 06:23:47 PM
I was overqualified.

So that qualified you for orgy status. You messed up son.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 29, 2017, 06:43:29 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2017, 06:40:59 PM
So that qualified you for orgy status. You messed up son.

It's one of those things that you only need to do once, you know.  They're really all the same after that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on March 30, 2017, 06:46:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 29, 2017, 06:43:29 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2017, 06:40:59 PM
So that qualified you for orgy status. You messed up son.

It's one of those things that you only need to do once, you know.  They're really all the same after that.

So you left because you thought you lacked the imagination to succeed?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2017, 10:32:05 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/01/louisiana-officer-derrick-stafford-sentenced-killing-boy-autism

QuoteLouisiana officer gets 40 years in prison in killing of 6-year-old with autism

Body-camera video shows the boy's father had his hands raised in his vehicle while Derrick Stafford and a second officer fired 18 shots after a two-mile chase

A Louisiana law enforcement officer was sentenced on Friday to 40 years in prison a week after a jury convicted him of manslaughter in the shooting death of a six-year-old boy with autism.

Derrick Stafford, 33, was convicted in the November 2015 shooting that killed Jeremy Mardis and critically wounded his father after a two-mile car chase in Marksville.

Ruth Wisher, a spokeswoman for state attorney general Jeff Landry's office, said Stafford was sentenced to 40 years for manslaughter and 15 years for attempted manslaughter. He will serve the sentences concurrently.

Stafford had faced a maximum of 60 years in prison when state district judge William Bennett sentenced him.

Video from a police officer's body camera shows the boy's father, Christopher Few, had his hands raised inside his vehicle while Stafford and a second deputy city marshal collectively fired 18 shots at the vehicle.

Stafford and Norris Greenhouse Jr, the other deputy who fired his weapon that night, were arrested less than a week after the shooting. Greenhouse, 25, awaits a separate trial on murder charges later this year.

The Advocate reported that Stafford turned to look at Few during Friday's hearing and apologized.

"I have kids, man," said Stafford, who was shackled in court and wearing an orange jumpsuit.

Stafford insisted, however, that Few posed a threat and maintained he fired his weapon to stop it. He testified at trial that he didn't know the boy was in the car when he fired and didn't see his father's hands in the air.

He said he shot at the car because he feared Few was going to back up and hit Greenhouse with his vehicle. Stafford said Greenhouse stumbled and fell to the ground as he tried to back away from Few's car.

Two other officers at the scene – a third deputy city marshal and a Marksville police officer – did not fire their weapons. Prosecutors said the officers weren't in any danger and shot at the car from a safe distance.

Stafford and Greenhouse are black. Few is white, and so was his son.

Defense attorneys accused investigators of rushing to judgment. One of Stafford's attorneys questioned whether investigators would have acted more deliberately if the officers had been white.
Stafford's aunt, Bertha Andrews, denounced the jury's verdict outside the courtroom on Friday, calling it a "lynching" and claiming race was a factor in the case.

"If it had been two white men who killed that little baby, it would've been justifiable homicide. If it had been a black baby, it would've been justifiable homicide," Andrews told reporters.

Stafford's attorneys tried to pin the blame for the deadly confrontation on Few. They accused the 26-year-old father of leading the four officers on a dangerous, high-speed chase and ramming into Greenhouse's vehicle before the gunfire erupted.

But prosecutors said none of the father's actions that night could justify the deadly response. Marksville police lieutenant Kenneth Parnell, whose body camera captured the shooting, testified that he did not fire at the car because he did not fear for his life.

Few testified that he never heard any warnings before two officers fired. He said he learned of his son's death when he regained consciousness at a hospital six days after the shooting, on the day of Jeremy's funeral.

Stafford, a Marksville police lieutenant, and Greenhouse, a former Marksville police officer, were moonlighting as deputies for the city marshal on the night of the shooting. Greenhouse, whose father is a long-time prosecutor in Marksville, resigned from the Marksville police department in 2014.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 01, 2017, 10:34:26 AM
No cameras, no guilty verdict.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 01, 2017, 01:40:19 PM
Interesting, even if not technically legally relevant.

Quote from: Syt on April 01, 2017, 10:32:05 AM

Stafford and Greenhouse are black. Few is white, and so was his son.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 01, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
Quote from: Syt on April 01, 2017, 10:32:05 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/01/louisiana-officer-derrick-stafford-sentenced-killing-boy-autism

QuoteLouisiana officer gets 40 years in prison in killing of 6-year-old with autism

Body-camera video shows the boy's father had his hands raised in his vehicle while Derrick Stafford and a second officer fired 18 shots after a two-mile chase

A Louisiana law enforcement officer was sentenced on Friday to 40 years in prison a week after a jury convicted him of manslaughter in the shooting death of a six-year-old boy with autism.

Derrick Stafford, 33, was convicted in the November 2015 shooting that killed Jeremy Mardis and critically wounded his father after a two-mile car chase in Marksville.

Ruth Wisher, a spokeswoman for state attorney general Jeff Landry's office, said Stafford was sentenced to 40 years for manslaughter and 15 years for attempted manslaughter. He will serve the sentences concurrently.

Stafford had faced a maximum of 60 years in prison when state district judge William Bennett sentenced him.

Video from a police officer's body camera shows the boy's father, Christopher Few, had his hands raised inside his vehicle while Stafford and a second deputy city marshal collectively fired 18 shots at the vehicle.

Stafford and Norris Greenhouse Jr, the other deputy who fired his weapon that night, were arrested less than a week after the shooting. Greenhouse, 25, awaits a separate trial on murder charges later this year.

The Advocate reported that Stafford turned to look at Few during Friday's hearing and apologized.

"I have kids, man," said Stafford, who was shackled in court and wearing an orange jumpsuit.

Stafford insisted, however, that Few posed a threat and maintained he fired his weapon to stop it. He testified at trial that he didn't know the boy was in the car when he fired and didn't see his father's hands in the air.

He said he shot at the car because he feared Few was going to back up and hit Greenhouse with his vehicle. Stafford said Greenhouse stumbled and fell to the ground as he tried to back away from Few's car.

Two other officers at the scene – a third deputy city marshal and a Marksville police officer – did not fire their weapons. Prosecutors said the officers weren't in any danger and shot at the car from a safe distance.

Stafford and Greenhouse are black. Few is white, and so was his son.

Defense attorneys accused investigators of rushing to judgment. One of Stafford's attorneys questioned whether investigators would have acted more deliberately if the officers had been white.
Stafford's aunt, Bertha Andrews, denounced the jury's verdict outside the courtroom on Friday, calling it a "lynching" and claiming race was a factor in the case.

"If it had been two white men who killed that little baby, it would've been justifiable homicide. If it had been a black baby, it would've been justifiable homicide," Andrews told reporters.

Stafford's attorneys tried to pin the blame for the deadly confrontation on Few. They accused the 26-year-old father of leading the four officers on a dangerous, high-speed chase and ramming into Greenhouse's vehicle before the gunfire erupted.

But prosecutors said none of the father's actions that night could justify the deadly response. Marksville police lieutenant Kenneth Parnell, whose body camera captured the shooting, testified that he did not fire at the car because he did not fear for his life.

Few testified that he never heard any warnings before two officers fired. He said he learned of his son's death when he regained consciousness at a hospital six days after the shooting, on the day of Jeremy's funeral.

Stafford, a Marksville police lieutenant, and Greenhouse, a former Marksville police officer, were moonlighting as deputies for the city marshal on the night of the shooting. Greenhouse, whose father is a long-time prosecutor in Marksville, resigned from the Marksville police department in 2014.

Exactly what the fuck-ass deserves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2017, 08:15:33 PM
Aunt Bertha's position makes me chuckle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 01, 2017, 08:20:47 PM
Aunt Bertha knows her Louisiana.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 03, 2017, 09:13:06 PM
Not so fast, boy.

QuoteSessions orders Justice Department review of all police reform agreements

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-justice-department-police-reform-review-20170403-story.html

Attorney General Jeff Sessions ordered Justice Department officials to review reform agreements with troubled police forces nationwide, saying it was necessary to ensure these pacts do not work against the Trump administration's goals of promoting officer safety and morale while fighting violent crime.

In a two-page memo released Monday, Sessions said agreements reached previously between the department's civil rights division and local police departments - a key legacy of the Obama administration - will be subject to review by his two top deputies, throwing into question whether all of the agreements will stay in place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on April 03, 2017, 09:14:39 PM
Hurray for whitey. Hunting season is back on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Phillip V on April 06, 2017, 10:40:26 AM
Ferguson Re-Elects White Mayor 2 Years After Mike Brown Incident

67 percent of the city's 21,000 residents are black.  Can't complain if you don't vote.   :thumbsdown:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/us/ferguson-mayor-race.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/us/ferguson-mayor-race.html)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 06, 2017, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 06, 2017, 10:40:26 AM
Ferguson Re-Elects White Mayor 2 Years After Mike Brown Incident

67 percent of the city's 21,000 residents are black.  Can't complain if you don't vote.   :thumbsdown:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/us/ferguson-mayor-race.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/us/ferguson-mayor-race.html)

That entire article keeps coming back to the racial identity of the politician.

I think this is a critical mistake the BLM movement is making. An understandable mistake, sure, but still a mistake.

They should be focusing instead on the policies and platforms of the candidates, and is that means they back a white candidate that represents their views, then fine. That isn't necessarily likely, and it is likely that the set of candidates that best represet their views will likely be mostly black, which is fine as well.

But the language and rhetoric is important, and this article, IMO, is a case study in what they are doing wrong. It isn't "Why can't we get someone who will help bring change that is needed elected" it is "Why can't we get a black person elected".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 06, 2017, 10:56:16 AM
I am just amazed that a mayor of any race could get re-elected after all that shit. Maybe he makes the trash be picked up on time.

QuoteThe city has replaced its white police chief and city manager with black men. It reached an agreement with the Justice Department to overhaul its justice system. And three black people, including Ms. Jones, have won seats on the Council. There was only one before Mr. Brown's killing.

It seems like overall they are winning they just blew this one for whatever reason.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 06, 2017, 11:14:38 AM
I sure hope this woman does not, actually, speak for a lot of them.

QuoteThe election results, for some, underscored the need to "take a step back and reassess and redefine what actual political power is," said Ashley Yates, a St. Louis-born activist who is now working on causes nationwide for Black Lives Matter. "For a lot of us, it's not about building something that will gain us greater access to the political establishment that already exists. It's not about just putting more black faces in systems that are built to oppress us already."

I have no idea what this highly theoretical pie in the sky gibberish means. 'Step back and reassess and redefine what actual political power is'. :huh:

So...rip up the Constitution? Replace it with...what exactly? Create a new philosophy of politics and government? Well that might make a great dissertation but how is this random string of thoughts relevant to any real people in this country?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 06, 2017, 11:33:11 AM
"Under white control." :mellow:

The writer doesn't seem to have considered the possibility of blacks voting for the white mayor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 06, 2017, 11:35:05 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 06, 2017, 11:33:11 AM
"Under white control." :mellow:

The writer doesn't seem to have considered the possibility of blacks voting for the white mayor.

Well one is quoted at the bottom. And a black woman is celebrating with him in the picture. So clearly some did.

There is no exit poll data so I have no idea if, as suggested, the whites all voted in a united bloc as revenge for the protests or if the black voters stayed home or voted for the incumbent in significant numbers. Hard to draw conclusions with no data.

Edit: though the article does mention that voter turnout was low. Damn. What has to happen for people to be engaged in local politics?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 06, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 06, 2017, 11:33:11 AM
"Under white control." :mellow:

The writer doesn't seem to have considered the possibility of blacks voting for the white mayor.

I did find the language used on the article troubling.

But given that the mayor ran as a republican, and the very low % of blacks who vote republican, it doesn't seem likely that a surge of black supporters is what kept the mayor in office.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 12, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
About damn time. This happened almost a year ago.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-cop-charged-manslaughter-shooting-autistic-man-s-unarmed-therapist-n745716

QuoteFlorida Cop Charged With Manslaughter in Shooting of Autistic Man's Unarmed Therapist

by Daniella Silva

A Florida police officer was charged with attempted manslaughter on Wednesday for shooting the unarmed caretaker of an autistic man last summer.

In addition to attempted manslaughter in the third degree, North Miami Police Officer Jonathan Aledda was also charged with culpable negligence, a first-degree misdemeanor, for the shooting of behavioral therapist Charles Kinsey in July.

The charges come nine months after the incident where police shot Kinsey in the leg, even after he laid down on the pavement with his hands in the air and pleaded with them that he was simply trying to help the autistic man.

Police had said they were responding to a report of a possibly suicidal man walking around with a gun.

According to a statement from Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle announcing the charges , a resident of the Miami Achievement Center for the Developmentally Disabled who required 24-hour supervision, left the facility with a silver tanker truck toy.

Kinsey, the resident's behavioral therapist, followed the man in an attempt to get him to return to the facility, according to the statement.

The statement said Officer Aledda, who was about 150 feet away from the two men, fired three shots in their direction.

"Officer Aledda was not in a position to correctly assess the situation or in a position to accurately fire. It was one of Officer Aledda's shots which struck Charles Kinsey," the statement said, adding that there were two other officers who were within 20 feet of the situation.

The shooting, while not fatal, was scrutinized as another example of excessive use of police force against unarmed black men.

But North Miami's police union, which is representing Aledda, quickly criticized the charges in an interview with the Miami Herald.

"In this case, we're going to be able to show how politically motivated, vindictive and incompetent that the state attorney is," Miami-Dade Police Benevolent Association President John Rivera told the Miami Herald. "The law is a very simple thing — intent. They're never going to be able to prove that this guy acted maliciously or recklessly in any way."

Rivera also claimed that Aledda was actually trying to fire at the autistic man, who he believed was armed a danger to Kinsey.

The encounter unfolded on July 18, 2016, when North Miami officers were summoned to the scene by a 911 caller who reported what appeared to be a disturbed man armed with a handgun. It was actually a silver toy truck. The man was 26-year-old Arnaldo Rios, a severely autistic man who had wandered away from a group home and sat down in the middle of the street. Kinsey was trying to coax him back to the facility when police arrived.

Part of the July incident was caught on a bystander's cellphone camera, which showed Kinsey trying to explain to police that weapons were not necessary.

"I'm telling them again, 'Sir, there is no need for firearms. I'm unarmed, he's an autistic guy. He got a toy truck in his hand,'" Kinsey said to a local FOX affiliate at the time, restating what could be heard on the video.

The shooting itself was not caught on video.

"It was like a mosquito bite, and when it hit me, I'm like, I still got my hands in the air, and I said, 'No I just got shot!' And I'm saying, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?'" Kinsey recalled, "and his words to me, he said, 'I don't know.'"

Police confirmed at a press conference following the incident that no gun was recovered at the scene.

The state attorney's statement said Wednesday's charges were the result of an inquiry that included prosecutorial review of the police investigation, numerous meetings with police to review evidence, and additional statements from witnesses.

The manslaughter charge carries a penalty of up to five years in prison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 12, 2017, 11:46:10 PM
Quote"In this case, we're going to be able to show how politically motivated, vindictive and incompetent that the state attorney is," Miami-Dade Police Benevolent Association President John Rivera told the Miami Herald. "The law is a very simple thing — intent. They're never going to be able to prove that this guy acted maliciously or recklessly in any way."

To protect and serve...sure...but who?

Also is it really perfectly legal to shoot people in Florida so long as you think happy thoughts?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 13, 2017, 12:33:09 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 12, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
About damn time. This happened almost a year ago.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-cop-charged-manslaughter-shooting-autistic-man-s-unarmed-therapist-n745716

QuoteFlorida Cop Charged With Manslaughter in Shooting of Autistic Man's Unarmed Therapist

by Daniella Silva

A Florida police officer was charged with attempted manslaughter on Wednesday for shooting the unarmed caretaker of an autistic man last summer.

There's a pretty big difference between those two...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2017, 06:14:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2017, 11:46:10 PM
"In this case, we're going to be able to show how politically motivated, vindictive and incompetent that the state attorney is," Miami-Dade Police Benevolent Association President John Rivera told the Miami Herald. "The law is a very simple thing — intent. They're never going to be able to prove that this guy acted maliciously or recklessly in any way."


Oh, I think they'll be able to prove maliciousness or recklessness when they shot him--


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.indianexpress.com%2F2016%2F07%2Fproxy-1759.jpg&hash=238894cc78dcce4bfc590a95ee8702983c239106)


Oh wait, he was a nigger.  NOT GUILTY
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 16, 2017, 10:19:57 AM
An interesting article that I'd be curious for Seedy's perspective...

QuoteDoes a Uniform Keep Officers in Line? The Baltimore Chief Thinks So
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERGAPRIL 14, 2017

Credit Noah Berger/Reuters

BALTIMORE — Abdul-Jaami Salaam felt his heartbeat quicken the minute he saw what the police officers were wearing: jeans, T-shirts and bulletproof vests. "Here come the cowboys," he thought.

It was a steamy night in July 2013. Mr. Salaam, a mental health counselor here, had just pulled his blue minivan into his driveway, his 3-year-old son in the back seat, which was piled high with groceries. The officers jumped out of their Jeep, looking for drugs or guns. Mr. Salaam had neither.

The beating he took that night landed Mr. Salaam in the hospital, bruised and bloodied, and cost Baltimore taxpayers $70,000 when he won a lawsuit. But beyond the payout, the episode raises a serious question about the culture of law enforcement: Are officers more likely to flout the law when they are not in uniform?

In March, the Baltimore police commissioner, Kevin Davis, abruptly disbanded plainclothes teams — known here as knockers or jump-out boys — after seven members of a gun task force were indicted on federal charges of stealing drugs, guns and money. One is accused of moonlighting as a heroin dealer.

"I don't want the jeans, I don't want the T-shirts," Commissioner Davis said in an interview, recounting his fury as he read the F.B.I. indictment. "I want your brass badge attached to your chest. I want the patches on your shoulder. I want you to look like a cop, because I can't ask you to act like a cop unless you look like one."

The commissioner's action, in a city at the center of a national debate over police practices, has prompted some soul-searching over plainclothes squads, forcing chiefs who are grappling with rising gun violence to weigh building trust against reining in elite units that can operate in dangerous environments.

The uniform is a signal to the public, and to the officer who wears one, that the police represent law and order. But in big-city departments, many officers do not wear uniforms, according to Maria Haberfeld, an expert in police training at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. Shedding them — what the police call getting "out of the bag" — is a sign of status.

Detectives, who investigate crimes and are not typically involved in street policing, wear suits. Undercover and sting officers dress in plain clothes to fool suspects. But beginning in the 1980s, in response to the crack epidemic, cities also began creating special units to roam high-crime neighborhoods with a mandate of ridding the streets of drugs and guns.

Commissioner Davis says officers drawn to this brand of aggressive policing are a special breed: "These are your A-plus cops, the hunter-gatherers of our profession." They tend to have discretion in how they work and freedom in what they wear, which contributes to a macho ethos and a dress code that, in Baltimore, included backward baseball caps.

"It's a subculture within a subculture," Professor Haberfeld said. "They develop this mentality of: 'We are dealing with the worst of the worst, we are dealing with the scum of the earth, so you don't tell us how to do our job.'"

Baltimore is not the first city to wrestle with high-profile cases involving plainclothes police officers. In New York in 2014, plainclothes officers were responsible for the death of Eric Garner, whose last words — "I can't breathe" — became a national rallying cry for police reform. In Palm Beach County, Fla., last year, a plainclothes officer driving an unmarked car was charged with manslaughter and attempted murder after he pulled up alongside a man whose car had broken down and, without identifying himself as an officer, shouted commands and then fired his weapon.

In Miami, an elite street-crime unit was disbanded in 1997 after 11 officers were charged in a federal conspiracy to plant guns on suspects. In Los Angeles, the sheriff's department decided to fire seven deputies in 2013, after The Los Angeles Times exposed a secretive jump-out squad whose members celebrated shootings and branded themselves with matching tattoos.

But for ambitious officers, the squads have an enduring allure. "They're given all the toys: the computers, the money, the guns and dress how you feel, do what you want to do," said Sgt. Louis Hopson, a 36-year veteran of the Baltimore Police Department and the board chairman of a group that represents black officers. "Come to work when you want to come to work, treat people however you want to treat them. It's very seductive to a young mind."

Uniformed officers deter crime, but plainclothes officers are better at catching criminals, said John Cornicello, who was a homicide lieutenant in the New York Police Department before he retired in 2012. But, he acknowledged, plainclothes units tend to drift into long lunches and bad habits. When a plainclothes team was responsible for the fatal 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo, an unarmed man who was reaching for his wallet, Mr. Cornicello said, "the question arose, 'How well did we prepare them?'"

During protests in Ferguson, Mo., in 2015, plainclothes officers had been tracking a man who opened fire on the police and was hit when officers returned fire. Credit Jeff Roberson/Associated Press
The element of surprise that benefits the plainclothes officer can also create confusion. Mr. Salaam, for instance, says he had no idea, at first, that the police were following him.

Police chiefs are well aware of these pitfalls, though many say that with proper supervision, plainclothes units can be extremely effective in fighting crime.

Ronal W. Serpas, a former chief in New Orleans and Nashville, allowed some officers to wear jeans because they were often engaged in foot chases, and jeans are "cheaper and easier to clean," he said, than a pair of $100 uniform pants. But he required that their shirts bear highly visible police insignia.

In Washington, Cathy L. Lanier, then the chief, eliminated plainclothes vice units in 2015, saying she wanted the police to be identifiable when they made arrests. Chief Lanier insisted then that the city had no "jump-out squads," but black residents had complained bitterly about them for years, especially after a 2013 report by a lawyers' group found that African-Americans accounted for more than eight of every 10 arrests.

"There were old people, young people, people talking about the jump-outs, never knowing when you're walking down the street whether someone is going to jump out and search you," said Alec Karakatsanis, a civil rights lawyer, recalling a community forum he helped organize at the time.

And here in Baltimore, the gun task force is not the first plainclothes unit to be disbanded; an earlier version was broken up in 2010. A Baltimore Sun investigation later documented $5.7 million in payouts from 2011 to 2014 to people who said they had been brutally beaten, many by plainclothes officers. Mr. Salaam's payout came later, in 2016.

Also in 2016, a Justice Department investigation of the Baltimore police documented a pattern of racial bias and cited frequent complaints about plainclothes officers "as particularly aggressive and unrestrained in their practice of stopping individuals without cause and performing public, humiliating searches."

Baltimore Police Department Commissioner Kevin Davis last week. Credit Patrick Semansky/Associated Press
All of this history was on Commissioner Davis's mind, he said, when he made the "unilateral decision" to abolish the entire 46-member gun task force after reading F.B.I. affidavits that documented, in eye-popping detail, a pattern of shakedowns — including one drug bust in which his officers recovered $70,000 in heat-sealed bundles of bills and pocketed $20,000 for themselves.

"Sometimes you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater," the commissioner said. "I was concerned enough about the culture of discretionary policing that I felt we needed to abolish it and start from scratch in a different way."

He said he expected to reconstitute the unit at some point, but with tighter controls, including "integrity checks" such as financial background examinations or polygraph tests.

The demise of the dreaded "knockers" was greeted with cheers in poor black neighborhoods here, where one of the indicted officers, Detective Daniel Hersl, is particularly notorious as a result of a running feud with a local rapper, whose family has long accused the detective of planting evidence and stealing money.

Given that publicity, some wondered why it took an F.B.I. investigation for Commissioner Davis to act. "It's concerning for us that it takes these spectacular abuses to get any kind of accountability," said Lawrence Grandpre, director of research for Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle, a public policy group.

The indictments have cast doubt on dozens, if not hundreds, of convictions, which are now being reviewed by the city prosecutor's office. David B. Shapiro, a lawyer who represents victims of police misconduct, is preparing for a possible class action suit.

Among his clients is Derek Williams, 29, a Baltimore County sanitation worker who was arrested in July 2014 by Detective Hersl and says he spent 10 months in jail after the detective planted drugs on him. Growing up in Baltimore, Mr. Williams said, he learned quickly that there was a "very big difference" between uniformed officers and those in plain clothes.

"When you're a uniform cop, that badge is shown, your name is shown," Mr. Williams said. "I would go to a cop that's in uniform for help way before I would go to a knocker."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 16, 2017, 10:33:35 AM
Never liked it.  Sense of Delta operator entitlement, rules don't apply to us.  No supervision.  Bunch of Training Day bullshit.

There's a time and place for it, but Baltimore had gotten way out of control with it.  Waaaaay too many of them, no staff oversight,  and the worst part was nobody ever got rotated.

And it's bullshit anyway;  after a few jumpouts everybody in the neighborhood knew who they were, and their cars, which were usually forfeitures anyway--"Hey, ain't that Pook-J's Escalade?" "Yeah, but he's up Hagerstown."  "Uh oh."--so it's not like they were really fooling anybody. But, like I've said so many other times, moron cops are never as smart as they think they are.  If they were, they wouldn't be cops.

Put them in their uniforms, kick them out of their cars, walk the fucking beat.

QuoteThey tend to have discretion in how they work and freedom in what they wear, which contributes to a macho ethos and a dress code that, in Baltimore, included backward baseball caps.

Co-opting the bail bondsman uniform.  Typical.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2017, 04:29:28 AM
Not a police shooting, but holy shit this is crazy!  Stay safe Ohio peeps.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cleveland-police-hunt-suspect-after-facebook-live-killing/

Quote

Police: Suspect kills elderly victim on Facebook Live, manhunt continues

140 Comment   Share   Tweet   Stumble   Email
Last Updated Apr 16, 2017 11:56 PM EDT

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Police say a man killed someone on Facebook Live and a manhunt is underway Sunday.

The suspect broadcast the killing on Facebook Live around 2 p.m. ET, police said, and has claimed to have committed multiple other homicides which are yet to be verified.

Emergency staffers at the Cleveland Clinic is on standby for mass casualties, CBS affiliate WOIO reports.

In the video, which has been removed from Facebook, the suspect pulls up to an elderly man who is walking on the side of the road. He tells the man to say a woman's name and pulls out his gun. The elderly man repeatedly tells the suspect he doesn't know the woman -- believed to be Stephens' former girlfriend -- but the suspect pulls the trigger, shooting the man in the head, leaving him bloodied in the street.

The suspect walks away and says the elderly man is dead because of the woman.

Authorities identified the suspect as Steve Stephens, a 6-foot, 1-inch tall African American male with a full beard. He weighs 244 lbs. The suspect is believed to be wearing a dark blue and gray or black striped polo shirt.


Cleveland Police Chief Calvin D. Williams gave a press conference to urge the public to call 911 if they see suspect Steve Stephens and to not approach him as he is considered armed and dangerous. WOIO-TV
Cleveland Mayor Frank G. Jackson and Police Chief Calvin D. Williams held a press conference Sunday evening with the latest details.

"Steve Stephens killed an elderly gentleman. I personally give my condolences to the family of the victim," Jackson said.

"We know who Steve Stephens is and he will be eventually caught. He need not to do anymore harm to any innocent people. Whatever concerns or problems that he's having, we're here to have a conversation," the mayor said.

Man in standoff with deputies uses Facebook Live to surrender
"We need Steve to turn himself in," Williams said. "We want this to end with as much peace as we can bring to this right now. If that doesn't happen, we have all our partners in on this and will look until we find him."

Williams said state, county and federal officials are helping with the capture of the suspect. As of this evening, there have been no sightings of the suspect. Officials have confirmed that the city is not on lockdown.

Williams also said that there are no other victims and urges the public to come forward with any information. "We need to get Steve off the streets," he said. "There's no need for any more bloodshed."

The chief said officials are in contact with Stephens' family to track him down and that the victim was picked at random. The victim has been identified as 74-year-old Robert Godwin Sr.

A man who spoke with WOIO said the victim was his father.

"He was a good guy. He would give you the shirt off his back," he said. "I'm not just saying that for these cameras ... This man, right here, was a good man and I hate that he's gone."

WOIO obtained photos of the victim as his family is devastated over their loss. The family had just celebrated Easter with him at a family dinner.

Police are searching for a white Ford Fusion that belongs to the suspect. They said the suspect was last seen south of Interstate-90 in the area of East 93rd.

Williams said the car was recently purchased and thinks there is a temporary tag and that the plates could have been switched. The car has Ohio temporary tag: E363630.

The FBI told CBS News that it will will provide additional personnel, investigative techniques and various resources to this ongoing situation.

Joy Lane, Stephens' longtime partner, broke her silence on the shooting in a text message to CBS News.

"We had been in a relationship for several years. I am sorry that all of this has happened. My heart & prayers goes out to the family members of the victim(s). Steve really is a nice guy... he is generous with everyone he knows. He was kind and loving to me and my children. This is a very difficult time for me and my family Please respect our privacy at this time."

Ealrier, Cleveland State University officials on Twitter urged people to stay remain in a safe location or stay away from campus but has since lifted a lockdown tonight.

Stephens' Facebook page has since been deactivated as of Sunday evening after he published footage of the shooting and Facebook issued the following statement:

"This is a horrific crime and we do not allow this kind of content on Facebook. We take our responsibility to keep people safe on Facebook very seriously, and are in touch with law enforcement in emergencies when there are direct threats to physical safety."

Stephens worked at Beech Brook as a case worker -- which assists children, adolescent and adults with behavioral health.

"We are shocked and horrified like everyone else," said Nancy Kortemeyer, a spokeswoman for Beech Brook. "To think that one of our employees could do this is awful."

Stephens' mother, Maggie Green, spoke to CNN and she said that he was "mad with his girlfriend. That's why he is shooting people and he won't stop until his mother or girlfriend tell him to stop."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2017, 05:15:55 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2017, 04:29:28 AM
Not a police shooting,
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 02, 2017, 06:53:27 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/02/dallas-texas-police-shooting-jordan-edwards-moving-car

QuotePolice shooting of Texas teen in moving car violated federal guidance

Jordan Edwards, killed in Dallas-area shooting, becomes latest victim of practice banned by most large police departments across the country

When a Dallas-area police officer fired shots into a moving car on Saturday night, killing 15-year-old Jordan Edwards, the officer did so in direct violation of federal guidance and widespread police department best practices.

Jordan was just the latest victim of a practice the Department of Justice has routinely described as dangerous and unnecessary. A 2015 Guardian investigation found that about four people a month were killed in similar incidents where police fired into moving vehicles. Data from the Guardian's Counted database, which recorded how many people were killed by US police in 2015 and 2016, suggests that that number killed by police gunfire after officers shot into vehicles remained unchanged in 2016, at 48.

Jordan was in the passenger seat of a car authorities say was being driven backwards in an "aggressive manner" when a Balch Springs, Texas, officer opened fire. In a Sunday press conference, the police chief said officers were responding to reports of "drunken teenagers" and heard gunshots when they arrived on the scene.

Lee Merritt, an attorney representing Jordan's family, said the teens in the car were not the ones police had been called about. The officer, who has not been identified, has been placed on routine administrative leave.

Typically in shootings like this, police say that the the vehicle itself is being used as a deadly weapon, justifying the use of deadly force. Experts, however, say that shooting at moving vehicles is ill-advised for a number of reasons. For one, it is extremely difficult to hit a moving target, and officers waste time aiming and firing that could be spent getting out of the way.

Secondly, shooting at a car is no guarantee that it will stop. In many cases, for example the shooting of Samuel DuBose in Cincinnati in 2015, shooting someone behind the wheel of a car leads to the vehicle driving unguided until it hits something, potentially endangering bystanders.

Most large police departments in the country, including those of New York, Los Angeles, Houston and Denver, prohibit officers from shooting into cars. In fact, had the officers responding to the scene where Jordan was killed been from nearby Dallas, they probably would have been trained to respond differently. The Dallas police rulebook prohibits officers from firing at vehicles "unless it is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily injury to the officer or another person", and advises officers to get out of the way, rather than fire, whenever possible.

But many smaller departments, such as Balch Springs, whose rulebook was not immediately available for review, do not have such restrictions.

Jeremy Mardis, 6, Marksville, Louisiana
3 November, 2015: Officers shot and killed Jeremy Mardis, a 6 year old boy with autism, while trying to apprehend his father, Christopher Few. Immediately after Few's vehicle stopped during a chase, two deputy Marshals got out of their patrol cars and began firing into the vehicle, hitting Mardis four times and Few twice. The incident was captured on body cameras.

The two deputy marshals who fired their weapons, Derrick Stafford and Norris Greenhouse Jr, were both indicted on murder charges and arrested. Stafford was convicted and sentenced to 40 years in prison in March. Greenhouse's trial is scheduled to begin in June.

Doll Pierre-Louis, 24, Miami Gardens, Florida
26 May, 2016: Doll Pierre-Louis was trying to flee a traffic stop for speeding when the arresting officer, who was on a motorbike, jumped onto the hood of Pierre-Louis's vehicle as he tried to turn around. Florida Highway Trooper Misael Diaz then shot through the windshield of the car before jumping off as Pierre-Louis drove away. A short distance away, Pierre-Louis who was travelling with his girlfriend, struck another vehicle and finally stopped. "If he felt that his life was threatened and the vehicle's going to run you over, you know, that's assault with a deadly weapon," said patrol spokesman Joe Sanchez.

The case remains under investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Eric Harris, 22, New Orleans, Louisiana
8 February, 2016: Eric Harris was shot by officers when he put his car in reverse at the end of a car chase with Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office deputies. The chase started in Jefferson Parish, but ended in the city of New Orleans a neighboring jurisdiction. Harris crashed his car into a pole, and when his reverse lights came on, the deputies who were about 20 feet behind the vehicle, said they feared for their lives and fired. New Orleans deputy police chief Arlinda Westbrook said at a public forum in March 2016 that "if that was our police officer, because it's so contrary to our policy, they would have been arrested on the spot," in reference to the deputies actions. A gun was recovered from the vehicle.

A regional civil rights task force headed by the FBI declared in March that no charges would be filed against the officer.

Jacqueline Salyers, 32, Tacoma, Washington
28 January, 2016: Police were trying to apprehend Jacqueline Salyers' boyfriend Kenneth Wright who was wanted on felony drug and gun charges. When officers approached the vehicle, Wright, who was in the passenger seat, put his hands up, but Salyers, in the driver seat, put the car in gear. Fearing for his life officer Scott Campbell fired, killing her. Wright later said Salyers was frightened by the officer's screaming and panicked. Salyers was pregnant when she died. Toxicology reports showed she had a potentially lethal dose of methamphetamine in her system at the time as well. A gun was recovered from the vehicle.

The Pierce County prosecutor ruled the shooting justified in May 2016.

Kenneth Kennedy, Kingman, Arizona
29 October, 2016: Kenneth Kennedy attempted to flee during a traffic stop and bumped two police cruisers during his attempt, authorities said. Deputy Mark Giralde fired at the windshield, killing Kennedy after he started driving at the deputy, according to police. Kingman's wife was also in the car at the time but was unharmed.

Bullhead City police are still investigating the incident.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on May 02, 2017, 07:41:10 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 02, 2017, 06:53:27 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/02/dallas-texas-police-shooting-jordan-edwards-moving-car

Quote
Jordan was in the passenger seat of a car authorities say was being driven backwards in an "aggressive manner" when a Balch Springs, Texas, officer opened fire. In a Sunday press conference, the police chief said officers were responding to reports of "drunken teenagers" and heard gunshots when they arrived on the scene.
This is probably a bit pedantic, but actually the car was actually moving forward away from the officers when it was fired upon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2017, 02:46:08 AM
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-police-shoot-20170530-story.html

QuoteU.S. Supreme Court makes it harder to sue police for barging into homes

The Supreme Court on Tuesday made it harder to sue police for barging into a home and provoking a shooting, setting aside a $4-million verdict against two Los Angeles County deputies.

The money was awarded to a homeless couple who were startled and then shot when the two sheriff's deputies entered the shack where they were sleeping.

The unanimous ruling rejected the so-called provocation rule that some lower courts have used. Under that rule, police can be sued for violating a victim's constitutional rights against unreasonable searches if they provoked a confrontation that resulted in violence.

"The basic problem with the provocation rule," Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., wrote in the 8-0 decision, is that it "provides a novel and unsupported path to liability in cases in which the use of force was reasonable."

A federal judge decided the two deputies responded reasonably when they saw Angel Mendez, the sleeping man, reach for a weapon, which turned out to be a BB gun.

The deputies were liable for the injuries they caused, the judge ruled, because they had provoked the incident by going on to private property and barging into the shack without a search warrant and without announcing their presence.

In Tuesday's opinion in County of Los Angeles vs. Mendez, the justices said the judge and the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals were wrong to rely on the provocation rule. But they sent the case back to the 9th Circuit to reconsider whether the verdict can be upheld on the grounds the deputies violated the 4th Amendment when they searched without a warrant.

The Assn. for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs welcomed the court's rejection of the provocation rule.

"This invented rule put the lives of deputies into danger by causing them to hesitate in using reasonable force to defend themselves for fear of later civil liability," the group said in a statement.

The American Civil Liberties Union had urged the court to uphold the verdict. But David Cole, the ACLU's national legal director, said the court's opinion makes clear officers can be held liable in such cases.

"In my view, the decision does not give police a blank check to provoke violence. It holds that where the police act unconstitutionally, they are responsible for the reasonable consequences of their conduct," Cole said.

The case began in 2010 when deputies were searching for a parole violator who was believed to be armed and dangerous. Based on a tip, a dozen deputies went to a house in Lancaster. They did not have a search warrant. Several deputies banged on the front door and pressed to enter, and two others went around to the back where they saw three metal storage sheds and a wooden shack.

When one of them opened the door of the shack and pulled back a blue blanket, he startled a man and a woman who were napping. When the man reached for a BB gun, one deputy yelled "Gun!" and the two officers fired 15 shots.

Mendez was hit several times and lost his leg. His wife, Jennifer Garcia Mendez, who was pregnant, was hit in the back. The deputies did not find the fugitive they were looking for
.

Both shooting victims survived and sued Los Angeles County for their injuries.

After a trial, U.S. District Judge Michael Fitzgerald handed down the $4-million verdict.

The 9th Circuit Court upheld the decision and agreed the officers had recklessly and intentionally provoked the confrontation.

Last year, lawyers for Los Angeles County appealed and argued that the 9th Circuit was the only appeals court to use the provocation rule as a separate basis for upholding excessive force claims against the police.

The eight justices heard arguments in the case in late March while Justice Neil M. Gorsuch's confirmation was pending in the Senate, and they sounded evenly split. Tuesday's opinion looks to be a compromise of sorts that rejects one approach but leaves open the prospect that victims of police shootings may recover damages if the officers undertook an unreasonable search.

So if you have intruders barging into your home when you sleep you better not defend yourself, it could be the police who have the wrong address, and they have a good chance of getting off the hook. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2017, 03:07:37 AM
Sorry but I don't really see how the provocation rule would be beneficial.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 31, 2017, 09:49:43 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2017, 02:46:08 AM
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-police-shoot-20170530-story.html

QuoteU.S. Supreme Court makes it harder to sue police for barging into homes

The Supreme Court on Tuesday made it harder to sue police for barging into a home and provoking a shooting, setting aside a $4-million verdict against two Los Angeles County deputies.

The money was awarded to a homeless couple who were startled and then shot when the two sheriff's deputies entered the shack where they were sleeping.

The unanimous ruling rejected the so-called provocation rule that some lower courts have used. Under that rule, police can be sued for violating a victim's constitutional rights against unreasonable searches if they provoked a confrontation that resulted in violence.

"The basic problem with the provocation rule," Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., wrote in the 8-0 decision, is that it "provides a novel and unsupported path to liability in cases in which the use of force was reasonable."

A federal judge decided the two deputies responded reasonably when they saw Angel Mendez, the sleeping man, reach for a weapon, which turned out to be a BB gun.

The deputies were liable for the injuries they caused, the judge ruled, because they had provoked the incident by going on to private property and barging into the shack without a search warrant and without announcing their presence.

In Tuesday's opinion in County of Los Angeles vs. Mendez, the justices said the judge and the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals were wrong to rely on the provocation rule. But they sent the case back to the 9th Circuit to reconsider whether the verdict can be upheld on the grounds the deputies violated the 4th Amendment when they searched without a warrant.

The Assn. for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs welcomed the court's rejection of the provocation rule.

"This invented rule put the lives of deputies into danger by causing them to hesitate in using reasonable force to defend themselves for fear of later civil liability," the group said in a statement.

The American Civil Liberties Union had urged the court to uphold the verdict. But David Cole, the ACLU's national legal director, said the court's opinion makes clear officers can be held liable in such cases.

"In my view, the decision does not give police a blank check to provoke violence. It holds that where the police act unconstitutionally, they are responsible for the reasonable consequences of their conduct," Cole said.

The case began in 2010 when deputies were searching for a parole violator who was believed to be armed and dangerous. Based on a tip, a dozen deputies went to a house in Lancaster. They did not have a search warrant. Several deputies banged on the front door and pressed to enter, and two others went around to the back where they saw three metal storage sheds and a wooden shack.

When one of them opened the door of the shack and pulled back a blue blanket, he startled a man and a woman who were napping. When the man reached for a BB gun, one deputy yelled "Gun!" and the two officers fired 15 shots.

Mendez was hit several times and lost his leg. His wife, Jennifer Garcia Mendez, who was pregnant, was hit in the back. The deputies did not find the fugitive they were looking for
.

Both shooting victims survived and sued Los Angeles County for their injuries.

After a trial, U.S. District Judge Michael Fitzgerald handed down the $4-million verdict.

The 9th Circuit Court upheld the decision and agreed the officers had recklessly and intentionally provoked the confrontation.

Last year, lawyers for Los Angeles County appealed and argued that the 9th Circuit was the only appeals court to use the provocation rule as a separate basis for upholding excessive force claims against the police.

The eight justices heard arguments in the case in late March while Justice Neil M. Gorsuch's confirmation was pending in the Senate, and they sounded evenly split. Tuesday's opinion looks to be a compromise of sorts that rejects one approach but leaves open the prospect that victims of police shootings may recover damages if the officers undertook an unreasonable search.

So if you have intruders barging into your home when you sleep you better not defend yourself, it could be the police who have the wrong address, and they have a good chance of getting off the hook. :rolleyes:

We don't know in this case. They were homeless and by definition weren't at home.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2017, 09:52:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2017, 02:46:08 AM
So if you have intruders barging into your home when you sleep you better not defend yourself, it could be the police who have the wrong address, and they have a good chance of getting off the hook. :rolleyes:

That is a distressingly familiar story in the war on drugs. Cops burst into the wrong house, home owner grabs his gun, cops see gun and shoot the homeowner.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2017, 12:15:56 PM
QuoteThe American Civil Liberties Union had urged the court to uphold the verdict. But David Cole, the ACLU's national legal director, said the court's opinion makes clear officers can be held liable in such cases.

"In my view, the decision does not give police a blank check to provoke violence. It holds that where the police act unconstitutionally, they are responsible for the reasonable consequences of their conduct," Cole said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2017, 10:41:12 PM
The wheels of justice may not have turned, but the wheels of human resources are.

QuoteCleveland Police Officer Who Shot Tamir Rice Is Fired

The Cleveland police officer who fatally shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice in 2014 as he held a pellet gun, setting off national protests, was fired Tuesday, officials said.

At a news conference, officials said that the officer, Timothy Loehmann, would be terminated immediately and that Frank Garmback, an officer who was driving the patrol car, would be suspended for 10 days beginning Wednesday. They also said Officer Garmback would be required to take an additional tactical training course.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/30/us/cleveland-police-tamir-rice.html


QuoteFive Baltimore officers from Freddie Gray case face internal discipline; three could be fired

Five Baltimore police officers involved in the 2015 arrest and death of Freddie Gray have been charged with violating department rules, with three of them facing termination, The Baltimore Sun has learned.

The three who face firing are Officer Caesar Goodson, who was driving the van where an autopsy determined Gray suffered fatal injuries; and supervisors Lt. Brian Rice and Sgt. Alicia White, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Officers Edward Nero and Garrett Miller, who made the initial arrest of Gray, face five days suspension without pay.

Meanwhile, Officer William Porter, who was criminally charged with manslaughter, is not facing any internal discipline.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-freddie-gray-internal-charges-20170522-story.html



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on June 01, 2017, 08:37:26 AM
There is some good bounty hunter action on the news this morning. Impersonating federal officials to the guy's employer and then blasting away.

HOT
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2017, 10:14:22 AM
Figured I'd post this here, since more police violence is what it's going to lead to anyway.

QuoteTrump signs legislation to aid law enforcement
John Fritze
The Baltimore Sun

President Donald J. Trump signed legislation Friday to prioritize the hiring of veterans as police officers, as well as a second measure to speed benefit claims for survivors of officers killed in the line of duty.

The signing, which took place in the Diplomatic Reception Room, was attended by several Maryland law enforcement officials, including from Anne Arundel and Prince George's counties as well as Baltimore City.

"We are here today to reaffirm our unbreakable support for the American heroes who keep our streets, our homes, and our citizens safe," the president said. "And they've been doing an amazing job under very adverse conditions."

One of the measures allows a popular Department of Justice grant program used to expand the size of local police forces to hire and train veterans. The other measure would streamline the process by which families of officers killed or permanently disabled in the line of duty can receive financial support.

As of last April, nearly six in ten applications had been pending for more than a year, according to the White House. The legislation would allow families to apply online and would let the Department of Justice give additional weight to determinations of disability made by state, local and other agencies.

"For too long injured officers have suffered and the children of fallen officers have put their dreams of college on hold while bureaucracy delayed crucial benefits, made it impossible for their families," Trump said at the signing. "No longer. It's unacceptable and it's going to end today."

Trump repeatedly raised what he viewed as the plight of police officers during his presidential campaign last year. Both bills received unanimous support in Congress, and had the backing of groups such as the national Fraternal Order of Police.

"This is very important to law enforcement and the wider public safety community because it provides our members peace of mind knowing that their families will be taken care of in the event they are killed or disabled in the line of duty," national FOP president Chuck Canterbury said in a statement.

Among the participants from Maryland was Sgt. Clyde Boatwright of the Baltimore City Public Schools Police Department. Boatwright is also a vice president in the Maryland FOP.

Yay, more combat vets on the streets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2017, 10:27:24 AM
I don't like local police forces answering to the Feds and not to the local community. I feel like this has been a huge reason for the problems going between the cops and the locals over the past 30 years or so. Is Trump right? Do the Feds provide benefits for fallen officers and their families? They are not federal employees so why would that be?

I really hope when it says training it really means it. Soldiers need to have a radically different mentality to do police work than they had in the service.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on June 03, 2017, 10:45:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2017, 10:27:24 AM
I don't like local police forces answering to the Feds and not to the local community.

I agree, and feel the same way about schools.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2017, 11:21:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2017, 10:27:24 AM
I don't like local police forces answering to the Feds and not to the local community. I feel like this has been a huge reason for the problems going between the cops and the locals over the past 30 years or so. Is Trump right? Do the Feds provide benefits for fallen officers and their families? They are not federal employees so why would that be?

QuoteThe legislation would allow families to apply online and would let the Department of Justice give additional weight to determinations of disability made by state, local and other agencies.

I can understand how the red tape can screw things up: unlike retirement which you can plan ahead for, your husband's LOD death isn't, and when he's dead, the checks stop and you have to apply for death benefits, pension, etc., and that can cause severe financial distress in the meantime.  What exactly the DOJ's role is here, in what is technically labor law, I dunno.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2017, 12:19:17 PM
Quote from: dps on June 03, 2017, 10:45:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2017, 10:27:24 AM
I don't like local police forces answering to the Feds and not to the local community.

I agree, and feel the same way about schools.
I disagree about both.  When it comes to police in US, it seems like both the level of training and the culture of professionalism go up as you move up from county to federal level.  And letting local communities decide what to teach will just serve to entrench the deep pockets of ignorance that will be the death of this country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
The militarization of the cops was and is a result of federal drug policies. The locals may be yokels but that is ultimately who the cops should be accountable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2017, 12:32:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
The militarization of the cops was and is a result of federal drug policies. The locals may be yokels but that is ultimately who the cops should be accountable.
It's true that militarization of police was a mistake.  However, ultimately it's not about the toys you get, but about what training you get on how and when to use these toys, and the accountability there is on you when you misuse your toys.  That's squarely on locals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 16, 2017, 04:34:58 PM
The cop who shot Philando Castile was found not guilty.  I'm shocked, shocked.  I wonder why cops ever take plea deals in these cases, it seems like even in the most inexcusable cases the worst they can get is hung jury.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 16, 2017, 06:51:19 PM
Of course he was acquitted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2017, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 16, 2017, 04:34:58 PM
The cop who shot Philando Castile was found not guilty.  I'm shocked, shocked.  I wonder why cops ever take plea deals in these cases, it seems like even in the most inexcusable cases the worst they can get is hung jury.

Haven't there been some convictions mentioned in this thread?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2017, 11:17:44 PM
Welcome back to another episode of America's Funniest Unarmed Motorist Execution Videos! (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/06/20/video-footage-shows-minn-traffic-stop-that-ended-with-philando-castiles-death/)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2017, 11:30:44 PM
 :hmm: Philando Castile was definitely armed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2017, 11:56:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2017, 11:30:44 PM
:hmm: Philando Castile was definitely armed.

Being legally armed with a concealed weapon is not a crime.

QuoteMinnesota police officer who responded after another officer fatally shot a black motorist says he saw a gun sliding out of the man's front right pocket.
Roseville police Officer Juan Toran testified Tuesday that he was performing CPR on Philando Castile and he saw the gun as paramedics rolled Castile onto a backboard. Toran says he shouted "Gun!" and removed it.
...
St. Paul paramedic Eric Torgerson testified that he saw an officer reach deep into Castile's pocket to pull out the gun. He didn't see it sliding out of the pocket.
...
On the audiotape, Yanez can be heard telling a fellow officer, "I don't know where the gun was."
...
The police officer backing up his partner in a Minnesota traffic stop that led to the death of a motorist last year says there wasn't enough concern ahead of the stop to treat it as a felony stop.
Officer Joseph Kauser says his partner, Jeronimo Yanez, told him he thought driver Philando Castile resembled a suspect in a recent armed robbery. But Kauser said there wasn't enough concern to handle the stop as high-risk, in which occupants are ordered out of the car with their hands up before officers approach.
Instead, it was treated as "stop and ID."

But you're from Georgia, so it obviously doesn't count when it's a negro.  At least the cop is fired, is which a better ending than usual.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2017, 11:56:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2017, 11:30:44 PM
:hmm: Philando Castile was definitely armed.

Being legally armed with a concealed weapon is not a crime.

No, but it is also not what the word "unarmed" means.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 21, 2017, 12:03:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2017, 11:56:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2017, 11:30:44 PM
:hmm: Philando Castile was definitely armed.

Being legally armed with a concealed weapon is not a crime.

No, but it is also not what the word "unarmed" means.

It's just the title of the show, it's not subject to strict autistic asschimp scrutiny.  Sometimes cat videos make it in, too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 21, 2017, 12:20:29 AM
http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-catasauqau-cat-killing-cop-cleared-20160808-story.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 21, 2017, 08:22:39 AM
The Philando Castile thing was fucked up.  I don't see how the cop got acquitted.  Castile was operating under contradictory police commands-- how was he supposed to not move and at the same time get his license?

I also have the feeling the University of Cincinnati cop is going to walk.  If he ends up with a hung jury again here in his second trial, I don't see them trying him a third time.  Prosecution screwed up; should have charged him with manslaughter instead of murder.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 22, 2017, 04:44:43 PM
White cop shoots black cop, "not knowing he was an officer, fired his weapon once at the man".

Militants of "Blue Lives Matter" spontaneously combust.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-officer-injured-by-friendly-fire-after/article_761b9cc4-75d1-5023-a38f-c4096f99d114.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 22, 2017, 05:00:00 PM
Even when you join them, that don't make you safe.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 22, 2017, 06:57:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 22, 2017, 05:00:00 PM
Even when you join them, that don't make you safe.
Well, you kind of have to let others know you're one of the good ones.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 22, 2017, 07:18:49 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 22, 2017, 06:57:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 22, 2017, 05:00:00 PM
Even when you join them, that don't make you safe.
Well, you kind of have to let others know you're one of the good ones.

Even Uncle Tom didn't get a happy ending.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 23, 2017, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 21, 2017, 08:22:39 AM
I also have the feeling the University of Cincinnati cop is going to walk.  If he ends up with a hung jury again here in his second trial, I don't see them trying him a third time.  Prosecution screwed up; should have charged him with manslaughter instead of murder.

They knew what they were doing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 23, 2017, 04:20:47 PM
I'm thinking that maybe the investigation of police shooting and any trial that comes from that should be handled by the feds and not the locals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 23, 2017, 04:24:13 PM
 :lol: Not these feds.  Not for a while anyway.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 23, 2017, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 21, 2017, 08:22:39 AM
I also have the feeling the University of Cincinnati cop is going to walk.  If he ends up with a hung jury again here in his second trial, I don't see them trying him a third time.  Prosecution screwed up; should have charged him with manslaughter instead of murder.

They knew what they were doing.

Doubtful.  Seems like mere incompetence.  At the beginning of (or right before) the first trial, the prosecutor tried to get it changed to reckless manslaughter, but the judge denied, saying he should have done that when charges were first brought.  I think reckless manslaughter would have been open & shut, and at least Tensing would have been put away on something.  But no, they had to swing for the home run right at the beginning.

It's a shitty situation.  I think murder was something of an over-charge, but I would have looked the other way had he been convicted.  Now things are going to get out of hand. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2017, 04:53:36 PM
Can't keep track without a score card.  Is this about the little kid with the replica gun?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2017, 05:40:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2017, 04:53:36 PM
Can't keep track without a score card.  Is this about the little kid with the replica gun?

This is the cop who reached into the car of an uncooperative black motorist, then thought he was in danger because he had his hand in the car, and so pulled out his gun and blew the driver away.

I agree with Spicy that reckless manslaughter was the proper charge. 

I think the cop who shot the fleeing motorist in the back about six times got away with blatant murder one, though, if I have the scorecard right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 23, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
It's a shitty situation.  I think murder was something of an over-charge, but I would have looked the other way had he been convicted.

That's damned swell of you.  Glad you could see yourself through to that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2017, 07:51:32 PM
They don't have lesser included offenses in Ohio?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2017, 08:15:07 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2017, 07:51:32 PM
They don't have lesser included offenses in Ohio?

I'm sure we do, but somehow the prosecution managed to pigeonhole itself. Not sure how it happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2017, 10:32:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 23, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
It's a shitty situation.  I think murder was something of an over-charge, but I would have looked the other way had he been convicted.

That's damned swell of you.  Glad you could see yourself through to that.

Stay woke.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 24, 2017, 01:55:47 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2017, 05:40:00 PM
This is the cop who reached into the car of an uncooperative black motorist, then thought he was in danger because he had his hand in the car, and so pulled out his gun and blew the driver away.
He wasn't uncooperative.  he was asked to get his license, he told the cop he had a gun and he tried to get his license from his pocket.

That he felt he was in danger in undeniable: he was facing a blackman and cops tend to assume all blacks are dangerous, even balck cops, because that's apparently their training.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 24, 2017, 09:17:45 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 24, 2017, 01:55:47 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2017, 05:40:00 PM
This is the cop who reached into the car of an uncooperative black motorist, then thought he was in danger because he had his hand in the car, and so pulled out his gun and blew the driver away.
He wasn't uncooperative.  he was asked to get his license, he told the cop he had a gun and he tried to get his license from his pocket.

That he felt he was in danger in undeniable: he was facing a blackman and cops tend to assume all blacks are dangerous, even balck cops, because that's apparently their training.
You're thinking of the different in case.  In this case the driver started the car after being asked to step out, so the cop shot him in the head as a precaution.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 24, 2017, 12:00:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2017, 09:17:45 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 24, 2017, 01:55:47 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2017, 05:40:00 PM
This is the cop who reached into the car of an uncooperative black motorist, then thought he was in danger because he had his hand in the car, and so pulled out his gun and blew the driver away.
He wasn't uncooperative.  he was asked to get his license, he told the cop he had a gun and he tried to get his license from his pocket.

That he felt he was in danger in undeniable: he was facing a blackman and cops tend to assume all blacks are dangerous, even balck cops, because that's apparently their training.
You're thinking of the different in case.  In this case the driver started the car after being asked to step out, so the cop shot him in the head as a precaution.

Wasn't that the university cop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 24, 2017, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 23, 2017, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 21, 2017, 08:22:39 AM
I also have the feeling the University of Cincinnati cop is going to walk.  If he ends up with a hung jury again here in his second trial, I don't see them trying him a third time.  Prosecution screwed up; should have charged him with manslaughter instead of murder.

They knew what they were doing.

If they convict him they're the enemy, but if they prosecute him their just doing what they have to do under public pressure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 24, 2017, 12:09:24 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2017, 10:32:40 PM
Stay woke.

Eat shit and shoot a nigger, Zimmerman. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 24, 2017, 12:11:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2017, 09:17:45 AM
In this case the driver started the car after being asked to step out, so the cop shot him in the head as a precaution.

When somebody like that decided to rabbit on a traffic stop, we'd just have to go meet them at their house later on or the next day.  But like all you fucking autistics insist, I'm out of touch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 24, 2017, 02:42:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 24, 2017, 12:11:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2017, 09:17:45 AM
In this case the driver started the car after being asked to step out, so the cop shot him in the head as a precaution.

When somebody like that decided to rabbit on a traffic stop, we'd just have to go meet them at their house later on or the next day.  But like all you fucking autistics insist, I'm out of touch.

Time is on our side.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 24, 2017, 04:15:05 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/24/black-st-louis-police-officer-shot-white-colleague

QuoteBlack St Louis police officer shot by white colleague 'fearing for his safety'

- Off-duty black officer arrives at crime scene to help, is ordered to ground
- White officer shoots, 'apparently not recognizing' colleague


A black St Louis police officer who was off duty when he heard a commotion near his home and tried to help fellow officers arrest three black suspects was shot by a white officer who did not recognize him, police said.

A white officer who had just arrived on the scene of a suspected crime on Wednesday night saw the off-duty black officer walking toward other officers and, "fearing for his safety", shot the officer in the arm, a police statement said.

The wounded officer, who is 38 years old and has been with the department 11 years, was taken to a hospital and later released.

The incident began with a report of a stolen vehicle. Police followed the vehicle and the suspects inside opened fire at officers' vehicles until they crashed the vehicle believed to be stolen. The suspects got out of their vehicle and ran.

The off-duty officer heard the commotion from his home nearby and rushed to the scene with his department-issued weapon. Two officers ordered the off-duty officer to the ground, but then recognized him and told him to stand up and walk toward them.

As he was doing so, another officer arrived and "apparently not recognizing" him, shot the off-duty officer, police said.

The officer who shot the off-duty officer is 36 years old and has been with the department more than eight years.

Officers shot one of the suspects in the ankle. He was taken to a hospital and treated for his wound. He's now in custody. A second suspect was arrested at the scene. A third remains at large.

Police said they were continuing to investigate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 24, 2017, 04:25:11 PM
Stop double-posting, you make it look like it happens more than it does.  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 24, 2017, 06:51:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 24, 2017, 12:11:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2017, 09:17:45 AM
In this case the driver started the car after being asked to step out, so the cop shot him in the head as a precaution.

When somebody probable terroristlike that decided to rabbit on a traffic stop, we'd just have to go meet them at try to apprehend them their house later on or the next day and hope that they had not strapped on a suicide vest and blown up a kindergarten in the meantime.  But like all you fucking autistics insist, I'm out of touch.

FYP for you.  You were not nearly apocalyptic enough.  Remember, citizens are the denizens of the enemy territory we risk our lives patrolling every day!  Vigilance and reaction speed are the keys to surviving out there!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2017, 10:25:54 PM
Someone call Harvey Dent!

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-shoot-man-and-woman-in-king-street-nightclub-in-melbourne-20170707-gx77yv.html
Quote

Police shoot man and woman in King St nightclub Inflation in Melbourne's CBD

Tom Cowie
Neelima Choahan
Cameron Houston
 
A man who  was shot by police while engaged in a fancy dress sex act at a swingers party was not holding a gun at the time, despite the claims of police, a nightclub owner says.

The man, dressed as Batman character the Joker, and a woman in a Harley Quinn costume popularised by the movie Suicide Squad, were shot by police at Inflation nightclub on King Street at 3.41am on Saturday.


The man  was taken to the Royal Melbourne Hospital in a critical condition, but was stabilised later.

The woman, who was shot in the leg by police, was taken to The Alfred hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.

Police said they shot the man after he aimed a gun at police, but the club security claim the gun was fake and that he was not holding it at the time.

The pair were attending the erotic Saints & Sinners Ball, which is described as "Australia's raunchiest party" for "broadminded adults".

It is believed the couple were engaged in a sexual act in front of other party-goers when about 40 police from the heavily-armed Critical Incident Response Team stormed into the club.

Inflation owner Martha Tsamis​, who has been locked in several battles with police over the years, said that security had not been approached by any concerned patrons prior to the raid. It is unknown who informed police about the gun.

"Venue staff have stated that the male victim was not holding anything in his hand but rather he was in a compromising position with his female partner, which is a normal activity with the nature of this event," she wrote in a statement on Facebook.

It is understood the shooting was captured by CCTV cameras. Police removed vision and a computer hard drive from the club about 8am on Saturday.

Victoria Police Northwest Metro region Superintendent Lisa Hardeman​ said after entering the club police called on the male, who took the gun from his pants and aimed it at police, to drop the weapon, then fired a number of shots.

"I do believe that security were informed that it was a fake gun," she said.

The "erotic fancy dress ball" had a rockers, punks and goths theme, according to a flyer for the event. On the Saints & Sinners website, it states that erotic dress is part of the entry requirements for every guest.
   
"Remember, just about anything goes ... there are open areas where people are talking, dancing, drinking, meeting, feeling and...  there are more secluded areas where people can play a little more discreetly," the website said.

Ms Tsamis said the club had hosted Saints & Sinners events for 20 years without incident.

"Participants are generally older adults who come in costume and engage with each other in adult fantasies," she said in a statement.

"The outfits and accessories are always shown to security as a condition of entry."

Superintendent Hardeman wouldn't confirm if the man was Tasered after he was shot, saying a "number of police options were used".


When asked why the woman was shot, Superintendent Hardeman said: "The woman was in close proximity to the male ... As [police] opened fire, she was also injured."
 
Superintendent Hardeman wouldn't confirm how many shots were fired or how many police were involved in the shooting.

She said police received "a number of phone calls in relation to the male with the firearm, including from the venue".

"People observed the firearm down the front of his pants."

Superintendent Hardeman said she was satisfied with the conduct of the police members involved in the incident.

Superintendent Hardeman said there were around 100 people at the venue at the time of the incident which occurred in "nightclub conditions" with low lighting and noise but that the shooting took place in front of about 10 people.

Detectives will investigate the shooting with oversight by Professional Standards Command as is usual when there has been a police shooting.

The shooting could further inflame tensions between the club and police.

The club's owner Martha Tsamis is suing the state government over interviews given by the now boss of Victoria Police's Professional Standards, Assistant Commissioner Brett Guerin.

The legal action relates to comments made by Mr Guerin to the Herald Sun and radio station 3AW that the club was a "honeypot" for drug dealers.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 13, 2017, 07:42:22 PM
Justice department won't charge the cop in the Crawford Beavercreek Wally World shooting. Like it mattered. Cops tend not to be convicted in Ohio, unless the cop is a total choad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2017, 08:40:22 PM
What batman villain do you dress as Ed?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 13, 2017, 08:42:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2017, 08:40:22 PM
What batman villain do you dress as Ed?

Go fuck yourself
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 13, 2017, 09:42:58 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2017, 08:40:22 PM
What batman villain do you dress as Ed?

I like to dress up as Condiment King. :blush:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 15, 2017, 01:14:16 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 13, 2017, 08:42:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2017, 08:40:22 PM
What batman villain do you dress as Ed?

Go fuck yourself

I got ya, you're more a looney tunes person
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.deathandtaxesmag.com%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2FBugsBunny_adp.jpg&hash=80dace3cd314780e009a620a6b160c76a3d72254)

Ed on the right
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 15, 2017, 01:31:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2017, 08:40:22 PM
What batman villain do you dress as Ed?

That's uncalled for. Ed ain't Australian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 17, 2017, 04:26:37 AM
Since the victim was an unarmed blonde woman, she may have chance at justice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/07/17/bride-to-be-called-911-for-help-and-was-fatally-shot-by-a-minneapolis-police-officer/?utm_term=.250833e4ca20
QuoteThree people "with knowledge of the incident" told the Star Tribune that the responding officers pulled into the alley behind Damond's home. The woman, wearing pajamas, approached the driver's side door and was talking to the driver, reported the Star Tribune. The officer in the passenger seat shot Damond through the driver's side door, the three people told the newspaper.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2017, 06:42:02 AM
She came at him with an aromatherapy candle, brah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2017, 06:54:14 AM
Quote"The BCA's investigation is in its early stages. More information will be available once initial interviews with incident participants and any witnesses are complete. ... The officers' body cameras were not turned on at the time and the squad camera did not capture the incident. Investigators are attempting to determine whether any video of the incident exists."

No, I don't suppose they would be turned on at the time.  Funny, that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on July 17, 2017, 02:05:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 17, 2017, 04:26:37 AM
Since the victim was an unarmed blonde woman, she may have chance at justice.

The fact she's a foreign national from a nation we have critical relations with will also help.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 17, 2017, 02:08:32 PM
Right. But probably not enough to actually get the other side to acknowledge there is a problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 17, 2017, 02:24:35 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2017, 06:54:14 AM
No, I don't suppose they would be turned on at the time.  Funny, that.

Apparently, policy says that they are turned on when the officers exit the squad car.  That's why they had to shoot her from inside the car.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 17, 2017, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2017, 06:54:14 AM
Quote"The BCA's investigation is in its early stages. More information will be available once initial interviews with incident participants and any witnesses are complete. ... The officers' body cameras were not turned on at the time and the squad camera did not capture the incident. Investigators are attempting to determine whether any video of the incident exists."

No, I don't suppose they would be turned on at the time.  Funny, that.

They are so good at keeping police accountable!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 17, 2017, 09:24:36 PM
Golden Ticket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9A-lMXK7jE
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2017, 09:39:59 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 17, 2017, 09:24:36 PM
Golden Ticket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9A-lMXK7jE

:lol: I dunno, it just never seemed to be as difficult a job as other cops made it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 17, 2017, 09:42:53 PM
Too much Iraq War veteran, and not enough Joe Friday.  Heck, we might be better with Frank Drebin.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2017, 09:49:45 PM
He's not responding to your commands because he is drunk.  That's what drunks do.  Because they are drunk.

So stop fucking shouting, and since his hands are up you can put the gun away, and help him find his way to the ground and cuffed in such a manner that, oh I don't know, would be deemed appropriate if one were being recorded.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/10f5c92b2aa3e59c7f5efa1fcf1a671b/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 17, 2017, 09:50:44 PM
Tim, The batman villian I want to be is Harley Quinn.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 10:29:53 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2017, 10:25:54 PM
It is believed the couple were engaged in a sexual act in front of other party-goers when about 40 police from the heavily-armed Critical Incident Response Team stormed into the club.

I guess they figure it was cheaper than a night at a strippers club.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 19, 2017, 10:31:29 AM
They gave up on trying that Cincy cop after 2 mistrials. The prosecutor doesn't think they can get a conviction if they try a 3rd time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 19, 2017, 10:35:22 AM
We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. You would think we would be more skilled at getting people convicted than that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on July 19, 2017, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 19, 2017, 10:35:22 AM
We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. You would think we would be more skilled at getting people convicted than that.

Hi! This is today's Ed quoting a fine gentleman, Ed from some days ago:

QuoteJustice department won't charge the cop in the Crawford Beavercreek Wally World shooting. Like it mattered. Cops tend not to be convicted in Ohio, unless the cop is a total choad.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 30, 2017, 01:28:28 AM
ACLU claims DC cops sexually molested protesters

https://thinkprogress.org/aclu-sees-dc-cops-over-inauguration-arrests-971b821c9480

Quote...
"Molestation and rape as punishment"
The "guilt by association" round-up and mass arrests, the liberal use of pepper spray, and the kettling itself would all be constitutionally dubious enough on their own, the ACLU-D.C.'s Scott Michelman said Wednesday.

But the experiences of the lawsuit's four plaintiffs — independent photojournalist Shay Horse, volunteer legal observer Judah Ariel, and peaceful protesters Elizabeth Lagesse and Milo Gonzalez — suggest that MPD sought physical and emotional retribution on the hundreds of people kettled, the ACLU alleges.

An officer ordered Horse, fellow plaintiff Milo Gonzalez, and three others to take their pants off before grabbing their testicles and then inserting a finger into their anuses while "other officers laughed," the complaint alleges. Horse is a photojournalist, one of six reporters initially arrested and charged whose cases have been dismissed.

"It felt like they were trying to...break us so that even if the charges didn't stick, that night would be our punishment."

"I felt like they were using molestation and rape as punishment. They used those tactics to inflict pain and misery on people who are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty," Horse said. "It felt like they were trying to break me and the others — break us so that even if the charges didn't stick, that night would be our punishment."
...

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 27, 2017, 05:09:53 AM
Oklahoma police chief outed as owner of racist website and white supremacist record label.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/busted-oklahoma-police-chief-outed-as-owner-of-racist-website-and-white-supremacist-record-label/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2017, 06:45:52 PM
Good

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-must-pay-500000-for-tasering-md-man-in-the-back-wrongful-arrest/2017/08/25/94c7afd4-8830-11e7-a50f-e0d4e6ec070a_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.a03a74bca1c3

Quote
Public Safety
Police must pay $500,000 for Tasering Md. man in the back, wrongful arrest
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 31, 2017, 01:02:38 AM
Refreshingly candid. :bleeding:

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/cobb-county/officer-to-woman-during-traffic-stop-we-only-kill-black-people-right/600704431
QuoteCOBB COUNTY, Ga. - Exclusive dash-cam video obtained by Channel 2 Action News caught an officer's interaction with a woman who said she was afraid to move her hands during a traffic stop.

Cobb County police Chief Mike Register told Channel 2 Investigative Reporter Mark Winne that after Channel 2 Action News submitted an open-records request, he and his command staff looked at the video.

"Remember, we only kill black people. We only kill black people, right?" the Cobb County police officer can be heard saying on the video.

On Friday, they opened an internal investigation.

Register said the officer heard on video is Lt. Greg Abbott. Register said Abbott has been assigned to administrative duties pending the outcome of the investigation.

According to Register, the recording is part of a DUI stop. The woman said she was hesitant to put her hands down to pick up a cellphone because she didn't want to get shot.

"No matter what context it was said, it shouldn't have been said," Register said.

Suri Chadha Jimenez, who is representing the driver in the case, said he believes the officer was being sarcastic after the woman "gave him some lip."

"It makes you cringe when you hear it. It's unacceptable," Jimenez said.

Jimenez says the fear minorities have when stopped is real.

Abbott's attorney Lance LoRusso gave Channel 2 Action News the following statement:

" "Lt. Greg Abbott is a highly respected 28-year veteran of the Cobb County Police Department. He is cooperating with the department's internal investigation and will continue to do so. His comments must be observed in their totality to understand their context. He was attempting to de-escalate a situation involving an uncooperative passenger. In context, his comments were clearly aimed at attempting to gain compliance by using the passenger's own statements and reasoning to avoid making an arrest."

Register said Abbott had been a good officer and he wasn't aware of any racial bias complaints.

"We're not making excuses. We're meeting this head-on and we're going to deal with it," Register said.

According to Register, the incident happened last year, before he became chief. This was also before an International Association of Chiefs of Police report gave the Cobb Police Department a high community

Register said they've responded to the report by instituting a faith forum, precinct discussion groups, training changes and more.

"We are going to keep going forward to make sure we, as a police department, service the community in a most professional way -- all segments of the community," Register said.

This was a story we broke on Channel 2 Action News at 6. We'll stay on top of it and follow any new developments in the investigation.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 31, 2017, 01:05:34 AM
This is one of those cases where you really have to be careful and have a full picture before passing judgment.  It sounds a lot more plausible that he said it sarcastically rather than that he had a heart-to-heart with a person he was about to book for a DUI.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 06, 2017, 12:37:51 AM
I don't care if he's my best friend, shooting me in those circumstances warrants losing your job!  :wacko:

http://newcarlislenews.net/index.php/public-records/sheriff-reports-6/3290-deputy-shoots-new-carlisle-news-photographer
Quote
Deputy Shoots New Carlisle News Photographer


By Seth Gecko     | published on Sep 05, 2017   

New Carlisle News photographer Andy Grimm was shot by a Clark County deputy Monday evening.

Andy had left the office around 10:00 p.m. to take pictures of lightning.

There was a traffic stop on Main Street near Studebaker's Restaurant involved, but Andy was not the subject of the stop.

He had his camera and tripod in his hands and Deputy Jake Shaw apparently mistook it for a weapon and fired, striking Andy in the side.

He was rushed to Miami Valley Hospital for surgery. He is expected to recover from his wounds.

"I was going out to take pictures and I saw the traffic stop and I thought, 'hey, cool. I'll get some pictures here.'" He said he pulled into Studebaker's parking lot in full view of the deputy, got out of his Jeep in full view of the deputy and started setting up his tripod and camera. "I turned around toward the cars and then 'pop, pop,'"

Andy said the deputy gave him no warning. "I was just doing my job," he said.

"I know Jake. I like Jake. I don't want him to lose his job over this."

andyThe Attorney General's BCI division is investigating the incident, and we will update this story as soon as they release their findings.

Andy is well known in the area for his love of photography. The outpouring of love and affection for him on Facebook has been overwhelming.

Everyone at the New Carlisle News thanks you for your support.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 06:35:38 AM
I guess he couldn't see the PRESS card in his fedora.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 06, 2017, 08:47:05 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 06, 2017, 12:37:51 AM
I don't care if he's my best friend, shooting me in those circumstances warrants losing your job!  :wacko:

The streets of New Carlisle must be one vicious dystopia for a policeman to be so paranoid he shoots a guy he knows personally out of paranoia his camera is some kind of high powered tripod using weapon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 08:56:08 AM
First Dillinger robs a bank there back in the day and now this.

I might give the deputy a pass because of the thunderstorms that night. Maybe. But it is the Clark county sheriff department.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 06, 2017, 09:01:38 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 06:35:38 AM
I guess he couldn't see the PRESS card in his fedora.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn0VZKeks4M
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on September 06, 2017, 01:49:06 PM


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-nurse-alex-wubbels-thanked-hero_us_59acf0bde4b0b5e530ff7db5 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-nurse-alex-wubbels-thanked-hero_us_59acf0bde4b0b5e530ff7db5)

Quote


An Idaho police department is hailing nurse Alex Wubbels as a hero for standing up to Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne, who tried to take blood from a patient without a warrant or the patient's consent.

That patient, it turns out, is William Gray, a reserve officer in Rigby, a city about 15 miles north of Idaho Falls.

"The Rigby Police Department would like to thank the nurse involved and hospital staff for standing firm, and protecting Officer Gray's rights as a patient and victim," the agency said on Facebook. "Protecting the rights of others is truly a heroic act."

Gray, who is also a truck driver, was badly injured in July when a suspect in a car fleeing police slammed into his truck. The suspect died, and Gray was flown to the University of Utah Burn Center.

In the hospital, police tried to take blood from Gray, who was not under arrest and not conscious and therefore unable to consent to the blood draw. In addition, police did not have a warrant.

Wubbels told Payne he could not draw blood under those circumstances and even got other hospital officials on the phone to confirm that policy to the detective.

She was arrested, and eventually released without being charged.

Payne is now facing a criminal investigation. Another officer is also on leave as the incident is investigated.

The Rigby Police Department said it was not aware of the incident surrounding the blood draw until last week.

"It is important to remember that Officer Gray is the victim in this horrible event, and that at no time was he under any suspicion of wrongdoing," the department said. "As he continues to heal, we would ask that his family be given privacy, respect, and prayers for continued recovery and peace."


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on September 06, 2017, 02:08:02 PM
The detective involved in arresting the nurse needs to be fired if for no other reason than he is just to god damned stupid to be a police officer.

Arresting a fucking nurse? How could he possibly think, regardless of anything, that that could end in any manner that would be good for anyone?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 06, 2017, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

"I vas chust following orderz!" hasn't been a good defense since Nuremberg.

I am starting to think that maybe the US needs to do a clean sweep of its police and hire a whole new batch, screening against stupidity this time.  Yeah, there would be a transition cost, but the cost of allowing the current batch of fuckwits to stay in power is also high.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 02:35:12 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

Sounds like he should be shit-canned from that too...

QuoteAs he stands in the hospital parking lot after the arrest, Payne says to another officer that he wonders how this event will affect an off-duty job transporting patients for an ambulance company.

"I'll bring them all the transients and take good patients elsewhere," Payne says.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 06, 2017, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 06, 2017, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

"I vas chust following orderz!" hasn't been a good defense since Nuremberg.

I am starting to think that maybe the US needs to do a clean sweep of its police and hire a whole new batch, screening against stupidity this time.  Yeah, there would be a transition cost, but the cost of allowing the current batch of fuckwits to stay in power is also high.

Personally I think some sort of uniform minimum police standards and licensing properly regulated and enforced would be really useful for the US. If not Federally, then at least on a per state basis.

Sure firing everyone would be satisfying and get a bunch of idiots out (and some good cops, no doubt), but without a proper regulation and management framework you'd just get more of the same after a while.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 06, 2017, 04:20:40 PM
Award winning documentary, for those interested:

http://www.donotresistfilm.com/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 04:50:01 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

It would have been a decidedly more interesting video if I had been on the scene as the University police officer. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 06, 2017, 05:01:00 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 04:50:01 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

It would have been a decidedly more interesting video if I had been on the scene as the University police officer. 


Are hotwheel tracks standard issue for university cops? :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 06, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 06, 2017, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 06, 2017, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

"I vas chust following orderz!" hasn't been a good defense since Nuremberg.

I am starting to think that maybe the US needs to do a clean sweep of its police and hire a whole new batch, screening against stupidity this time.  Yeah, there would be a transition cost, but the cost of allowing the current batch of fuckwits to stay in power is also high.

Personally I think some sort of uniform minimum police standards and licensing properly regulated and enforced would be really useful for the US. If not Federally, then at least on a per state basis.

Sure firing everyone would be satisfying and get a bunch of idiots out (and some good cops, no doubt), but without a proper regulation and management framework you'd just get more of the same after a while.
Agreed.  The amount of training US cops get is laughable compared to other civilized countries.  That certainly doesn't help instill the culture of professionalism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 05:01:00 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 04:50:01 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

It would have been a decidedly more interesting video if I had been on the scene as the University police officer. 


Are hotwheel tracks standard issue for university cops? :P

The only crimes being committed at that moment were being committed by the cop. Just because he's in a uniform doesn't mean he can't be charged.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on September 06, 2017, 08:43:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 06, 2017, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 06, 2017, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Lieutenant told him too, so he did it. Good cops follow orders and what not. He's also a part time EMT. Since like 1983.

"I vas chust following orderz!" hasn't been a good defense since Nuremberg.

I am starting to think that maybe the US needs to do a clean sweep of its police and hire a whole new batch, screening against stupidity this time.  Yeah, there would be a transition cost, but the cost of allowing the current batch of fuckwits to stay in power is also high.

Personally I think some sort of uniform minimum police standards and licensing properly regulated and enforced would be really useful for the US. If not Federally, then at least on a per state basis.

Sure firing everyone would be satisfying and get a bunch of idiots out (and some good cops, no doubt), but without a proper regulation and management framework you'd just get more of the same after a while.

No results found for good cops
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 06, 2017, 08:58:04 PM
My problem with the "good cops" argument is that evidence overwhelmingly shows that they are rare to the point of being irrelevant.  Even the cops that don't commit crimes seem perfectly willing to abet crimes when they are committed by fellow cops.

Perhaps a more centralized training and qualification system would yield cops that don't tolerate criminals, even when they wear a badge.  Dunno, but it is worth finding out, because right now difference between criminals and crime fighters in the US appears to be one of degree, not of kind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 06, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
Agreed.  The amount of training US cops get is laughable compared to other civilized countries.  That certainly doesn't help instill the culture of professionalism.

What are you talking about. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
Even if centralized, any kind of institution will typically become insular and self-protective. 

As much as I hate to bring in a "military" analogy...perhaps the problem is that in function, many police departments do not seem to have an equivalent of "civilian" control like the military does.  When this kind of shits hits the fan, it always seems to be the police chief talking on the subject, and seldom the mayor/city council.  Or that the mayor and his/her potential shenanigans are too intermixed with the police department (perhaps not surprising, as the police are probably, like our military, one of the biggest function of civic government). 

Perhaps something like a separate, citizen council to manage/investigate police operations?  Though it's hard to see that becoming something that either works hand-in-glove, or is so at odds with each other as to be motly dysfunctional.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:25:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 06, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
Agreed.  The amount of training US cops get is laughable compared to other civilized countries.  That certainly doesn't help instill the culture of professionalism.

What are you talking about.

If the training is a lot of seminars conducted by peeps like that fool (Mr. Close-set-Crazy-Eyes) in the trailer Oex posted not long ago, then yes, laughable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:31:39 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
Perhaps something like a separate, citizen council to manage/investigate police operations?

https://youtu.be/6NL-WPP2rdY?t=21s



Organizationally though, all the more progressive stuff is happening with departments out west and in the northwest. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:35:09 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:25:09 PM
If the training is a lot of seminars conducted by peeps like that fool (Mr. Close-set-Crazy-Eyes) in the trailer Oex posted not long ago, then yes, laughable.


Departments are up to their asses in available training, from state accreditation agencies to colleges to the federal government--but the learning disabled can only learn so much.  Don't blame the curriculum, blame the student.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:41:46 PM
Some of the ultra-rich suburb PDs around here require Bachelor's degrees nowadays, and they still do the same shit.

Edit:  But do seem to generally be of better quality compared to the big-city or rural-Joe Bob/High-school-QB-cop departments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 09:45:07 PM
Seedy will be pleased to hear that the New Carisle deputy was a MP. 10 veteran points for him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 06, 2017, 09:47:22 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:41:46 PM
Some of the ultra-rich suburb PDs around here require Bachelor's degrees nowadays, and they still do the same shit.

Edit:  But do seem to generally be of better quality compared to the big-city or rural-Joe Bob/High-school-QB-cop departments.

Yes a Bachelor's degree will fix it. You won't have any ass knob cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 06, 2017, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 09:45:07 PM
Seedy will be pleased to hear that the New Carisle deputy was a MP. 10 veteran points for him.

Don't hate
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:48:33 PM
They're also doing things like civilianizing media relations departments--man, I recommended that one once in a policy doc (used Portland as one of the case studies, got my ass handed right back to me  :lol:--as well as specialized necessities such as computer forensics.

Still though, as long as it's considered "the brotherhood" there's going to be an issue with incorporating civilian management and oversight.  Hell, they certainly didn't trust me.  And still don't when it comes to job interviews.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 09:45:07 PM
Seedy will be pleased to hear that the New Carisle deputy was a MP. 10 veteran points for him.

10% disability = 50 points

MAH DISLOCATED FINGER
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:48:33 PM
Still though, as long as it's considered "the brotherhood" there's going to be an issue with incorporating civilian management and oversight. 
I would argue that "cannot the mayor/city council just tell them to suck it up and take it?", except the po-po probably has enough dirt on their low-level corruption shenanigans to keep them quiet.  That and the "omg, tough on crime!!11" voters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 06, 2017, 09:54:48 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:48:33 PM
Still though, as long as it's considered "the brotherhood" there's going to be an issue with incorporating civilian management and oversight. 
I would argue that "cannot the mayor/city council just tell them to suck it up and take it?", except the po-po probably has enough dirt on their low-level corruption shenanigans to keep them quiet.  That and the "omg, tough on crime!!11" voters.

The union will love that. :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 09:59:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 09:45:07 PM
Seedy will be pleased to hear that the New Carisle deputy was a MP. 10 veteran points for him.

10% disability = 50 points

MAH DISLOCATED FINGER

Hell, if I was a vet, I'd have million points.

MAH LIVER, KIDNEYS, GALLBLADDER, ARTHRITIS
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 10:00:13 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:48:33 PM
Still though, as long as it's considered "the brotherhood" there's going to be an issue with incorporating civilian management and oversight. 
I would argue that "cannot the mayor/city council just tell them to suck it up and take it?", except the po-po probably has enough dirt on their low-level corruption shenanigans to keep them quiet.  That and the "omg, tough on crime!!11" voters.

That's got nothing to do with anything.  It's all about the Us versus Them mentality.  Civilians can't be trusted.  They don't know what happens on the Thin Blue Line.  They're not out there, they don't understand. All that bullshit.

grumbler mentioned why good cops are rare to the point of irrelevancy?  It's because they quit.  When I said I was worried about my fellow coworkers getting me killed or landing me in jail, I wasn't fucking kidding. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 09:59:28 PM
Hell, if I was a vet, I'd have million points.

MAH LIVER, KIDNEYS, GALLBLADDER, ARTHRITIS

I give them a ration of shit at work about my Veterans points from the War on Drugs.  And at least my side won--which is more than I can say about them and their Afghanistan and Iraq bullshit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 10:05:15 PM
Seedy needed to do what my brother did, find a nice small city of 20-30 thousand and do just about nothing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 10:15:26 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 06, 2017, 10:05:15 PM
Seedy needed to do what my brother did, find a nice small city of 20-30 thousand and do just about nothing.

That shit never works out, man.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F68.media.tumblr.com%2F91bd18143f36b14d1b41d6ab38850fe8%2Ftumblr_o06ri5SZmC1rp0vkjo1_500.gif&hash=d5f1509b8f09751e8eb690569399ce8609944970)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 10:20:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 06, 2017, 09:54:48 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 06, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:48:33 PM
Still though, as long as it's considered "the brotherhood" there's going to be an issue with incorporating civilian management and oversight. 
I would argue that "cannot the mayor/city council just tell them to suck it up and take it?", except the po-po probably has enough dirt on their low-level corruption shenanigans to keep them quiet.  That and the "omg, tough on crime!!11" voters.

The union will love that. :lol:

Public employees should not be allowed to have unions.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 06, 2017, 10:31:49 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 06, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
Agreed.  The amount of training US cops get is laughable compared to other civilized countries.  That certainly doesn't help instill the culture of professionalism.

What are you talking about.
The average training time for a US cop is 19 weeks.  In many European countries cops have to train for many years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 06, 2017, 11:01:14 PM
While I think training is important, I expect the real issue is leadership and accountability.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 06, 2017, 11:46:26 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 06, 2017, 10:31:49 PM
The average training time for a US cop is 19 weeks.  In many European countries cops have to train for many years.

19 weeks for an academy class, maybe.  It's not an undergrad college.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 02:48:11 AM
In Sweden training is 2.5 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 05:53:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 02:48:11 AM
In Sweden training is 2.5 years.

QuoteSince 2015, the National Police Academy is entirely outsourced by the Swedish Police Authority and training is carried out at three universities: Södertörn, Umeå and Växjö.[85] The training now covers five terms, and the last two include six months of paid workplace practice as a Police Trainee (equivalent to two and a half years of full-time studying).

So it's a coed for-profit degree with a paid internship.  Cute.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 06:23:54 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 05:53:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 02:48:11 AM
In Sweden training is 2.5 years.

QuoteSince 2015, the National Police Academy is entirely outsourced by the Swedish Police Authority and training is carried out at three universities: Södertörn, Umeå and Växjö.[85] The training now covers five terms, and the last two include six months of paid workplace practice as a Police Trainee (equivalent to two and a half years of full-time studying).

So it's a coed for-profit degree with a paid internship.  Cute.

I don't know what your argument is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 07, 2017, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: Jacob on September 06, 2017, 11:01:14 PM
While I think training is important, I expect the real issue is leadership and accountability.
My guess is training is a big part of it.  The more trained you are by the book, the less likely you are to be initiated by the "okay, now here is how it's really done in the real world" wise guy cops once you graduate, and the less likely you are to initiate the next batch of new cops likewise.  At the root of a lot of US policing problems is the culture of brotherhood rather than civil service.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 06:23:54 AM
I don't know what your argument is.

I'm not making an argument.  I'm making a judgement.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on September 07, 2017, 09:03:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 05:53:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 02:48:11 AM
In Sweden training is 2.5 years.

QuoteSince 2015, the National Police Academy is entirely outsourced by the Swedish Police Authority and training is carried out at three universities: Södertörn, Umeå and Växjö.[85] The training now covers five terms, and the last two include six months of paid workplace practice as a Police Trainee (equivalent to two and a half years of full-time studying).

So it's a coed for-profit degree with a paid internship.  Cute.

I'd bet something about uni being 100% free for its students in Sweden.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 09:05:40 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 06:23:54 AM
I don't know what your argument is.

I'm not making an argument.  I'm making a judgement.

On what? All those universities are government agencies and not for profit. The rest I don't quite understand how it's relevant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 11:18:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 09:05:40 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 06:23:54 AM
I don't know what your argument is.

I'm not making an argument.  I'm making a judgement.

On what? All those universities are government agencies and not for profit. The rest I don't quite understand how it's relevant.

It doesn't take 2.5 years to learn how to identify Jews.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 01:28:31 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 11:18:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 09:05:40 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 07, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 06:23:54 AM
I don't know what your argument is.

I'm not making an argument.  I'm making a judgement.

On what? All those universities are government agencies and not for profit. The rest I don't quite understand how it's relevant.

It doesn't take 2.5 years to learn how to identify Jews.

I see.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 07, 2017, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 02:48:11 AM
In Sweden training is 2.5 years.

I'm sure that works for a backwards country with a population of 10 million.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 07, 2017, 07:14:13 PM
How does it work, then? The larger the country, the less training policemen should have? The more backward the country, the more educated police officers are?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 07, 2017, 07:30:33 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 07, 2017, 07:14:13 PM
How does it work, then? The larger the country, the less training policemen should have? The more backward the country, the more educated police officers are?

Too expensive
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 08, 2017, 02:11:25 AM
In Sweden the police and the school system are heavily debated because they are both perceived to be in crisis. Regarding the school system one of the major identified weaknesses is the abysmal quality of teachers, and how that career today attracts only the dregs barfed up by the school system (they pretty much accept all applicants these days). Regarding the police the problems are mainly identified as horrible inefficiency and general very poor management at the top level, and the very low number of policemen in Sweden. Sweden has about half the number of police officers per capita compared to real countries (Sweden has about 20k officers, AFAIK NYPD for instance has almost twice that for a smaller population). We also pay our police officers almost nothing, certainly nowhere near for instance what US cops are paid. However the quality of police officers are never put forward as a problem in Sweden, while poor quality is a sorry recurring theme in the US.

I'm just saying the above as a kind of general info. However my impression is that the length of police training in Sweden isn't a problem but rather an asset. My guess is that having well trained police officers is money well spent. AFAIK the US is the outlier in civilized countries when it comes to the length of police officer training.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 08, 2017, 02:11:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 07, 2017, 07:30:33 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 07, 2017, 07:14:13 PM
How does it work, then? The larger the country, the less training policemen should have? The more backward the country, the more educated police officers are?

Too expensive

Per capita isn't a thing in the US?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 08, 2017, 02:18:10 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 08, 2017, 02:11:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 07, 2017, 07:30:33 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 07, 2017, 07:14:13 PM
How does it work, then? The larger the country, the less training policemen should have? The more backward the country, the more educated police officers are?

Too expensive

Per capita isn't a thing in the US?

We prefer to be decapitated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Liep on September 08, 2017, 04:11:33 AM
The new South Park game features a difficulty slider a little different from other games. I thought it would fit in here.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJMMwefXUAUR5St.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on September 08, 2017, 08:39:40 AM
Heh
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 08, 2017, 02:13:06 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 08, 2017, 04:11:33 AM
The new South Park game features a difficulty slider a little different from other games. I thought it would fit in here.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJMMwefXUAUR5St.jpg:large)

(https://i.imgur.com/HEOJs.gif)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ed Anger on September 13, 2017, 07:38:41 PM
The Wiccans in the neighborhood are open carrying now. And it is hilarious. Somebody is gonna shoot themselves in the foot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 15, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Another day, another murderer with a badge gets off. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html

I fear that we're going to reach a point where the criminal justice system will lose its legitimacy, and will be justifiably seen as a tool of oppression.  Nothing good can come of this if that comes to pass.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 15, 2017, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 15, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Another day, another murderer with a badge gets off. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html)

I fear that we're going to reach a point where the criminal justice system will lose its legitimacy, and will be justifiably seen as a tool of oppression.  Nothing good can come of this if that comes to pass.


The national guard is on alert.  Our newest governor is essentially Siege, a crazy army Jew.  He promises to come down hard on any rioting.  Can't say that I blame him.  I wouldn't want to be in St. Louis tonight.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 15, 2017, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 15, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Another day, another murderer with a badge gets off. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html

I fear that we're going to reach a point where the criminal justice system will lose its legitimacy, and will be justifiably seen as a tool of oppression.  Nothing good can come of this if that comes to pass.
What do you think will make us reach said point?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on September 15, 2017, 11:31:01 PM
Chemical munitions being used in St Louis residential neighborhoods.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 01:47:11 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 15, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Another day, another murderer with a badge gets off. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html

I fear that we're going to reach a point where the criminal justice system will lose its legitimacy, and will be justifiably seen as a tool of oppression.  Nothing good can come of this if that comes to pass.

I don't see enough in your link to determine there has been a travesty of justice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Cop says he's going to kill the suspect.  Cop proceeds to kill the suspect and plant a gun on him.  Cop is not guilty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 02:07:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2017, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 15, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Another day, another murderer with a badge gets off. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html

I fear that we're going to reach a point where the criminal justice system will lose its legitimacy, and will be justifiably seen as a tool of oppression.  Nothing good can come of this if that comes to pass.
What do you think will make us reach said point?
You can't predict what will start a forest fire.  All you can do is notice that there is an awful lot of dry underbrush piled up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 03:48:53 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Cop says he's going to kill the suspect.  Cop proceeds to kill the suspect and plant a gun on him.  Cop is not guilty.

You are stating as fact something that was arbitrated and ruled against.  If you have something besides what was in your link to substantiate your claim, please present it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 16, 2017, 07:30:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 03:48:53 AM
You are stating as fact something that was arbitrated and ruled against.  If you have something besides what was in your link to substantiate your claim, please present it.

I think that the circumstantial evidence and direct evidence don't allow for a lot of reasonable doubt.  The judge essentially said that, since the video evidence didn't directly show the cop planting the gun and he would expect it to, all of the other (very incriminating) evidence wasn't enough.  I find his argument very suspect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 16, 2017, 08:01:13 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 02:07:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2017, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 15, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Another day, another murderer with a badge gets off. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/us/jason-stockley-officer-shooting-verdict/index.html

I fear that we're going to reach a point where the criminal justice system will lose its legitimacy, and will be justifiably seen as a tool of oppression.  Nothing good can come of this if that comes to pass.
What do you think will make us reach said point?
You can't predict what will start a forest fire.  All you can do is notice that there is an awful lot of dry underbrush piled up.

I'm just wondering what would change to make it suddenly justifiable to hold that position. Sounds like it already is often a tool of oppression.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 09:25:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2017, 08:01:13 AM
I'm just wondering what would change to make it suddenly justifiable to hold that position. Sounds like it already is often a tool of oppression.
Logically, nothing.  It's just a matter of when emotions will reach a boiling point.  Maybe we're just waiting for a particularly egregious case with a particularly egregious "fuck you" levels of injustice, the one that shocks the conscience of even closet racists.

We're sort of getting into the same arguments that the antifa debate touched upon.  On the one hand, we have a country where there is law and order.  On the other hand, the concept of law and order is that the state is providing a minimum level of justice to the aggrieved parties so that people don't take things into their own hands.  The state has the responsibility to maintain its legitimacy as an arbiter.  The possibility of an uprising is the ultimate check on the state to not abuse its monopoly power on violence.

How do you tell when it's time to take things into your own hands?  It's sort of like deciding when it's time to mutiny.  Whether you were right to do so or not depends on whether you were ultimately successful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 09:54:15 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 03:48:53 AM
You are stating as fact something that was arbitrated and ruled against.  If you have something besides what was in your link to substantiate your claim, please present it.
You're setting an awfully high and circular standard for citizens to judge whether a miscarriage of justice has been committed.  If the kangaroo court has seen it, you can't bring it up again.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 16, 2017, 10:31:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 01:47:11 AM
I don't see enough in your link to determine there has been a travesty of justice.

QuotePeople say all kinds of things in the heat of the moment or while in stressful situations, and whether Stockley's statement that "we're killing this motherfucker," which can be ambiguous depending on the context, constituted a real threat of action or was a means of releasing tension has to be judged by his subsequent conduct. The court does not believe Stockley's conduct immediately following the end of the pursuit is consistent with the conduct of a person intentionally killing another person unlawfully.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 09:54:15 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 03:48:53 AM
You are stating as fact something that was arbitrated and ruled against.  If you have something besides what was in your link to substantiate your claim, please present it.
You're setting an awfully high and circular standard for citizens to judge whether a miscarriage of justice has been committed.  If the kangaroo court has seen it, you can't bring it up again.

In fact I asked you to bring it up again.  In my humble opinion you need some proof to state as fact that "he planted a gun."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 16, 2017, 09:54:15 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 03:48:53 AM
You are stating as fact something that was arbitrated and ruled against.  If you have something besides what was in your link to substantiate your claim, please present it.
You're setting an awfully high and circular standard for citizens to judge whether a miscarriage of justice has been committed.  If the kangaroo court has seen it, you can't bring it up again.

In fact I asked you to bring it up again.  In my humble opinion you need some proof to state as fact that "he planted a gun."


Only the police officer's DNA was found on the gun, not on the supposed owner.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 01:13:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
Only the police officer's DNA was found on the gun, not on the supposed owner.

That's not what the article says.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 01:31:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 01:13:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
Only the police officer's DNA was found on the gun, not on the supposed owner.

That's not what the article says.


I'm pretty sure it does.


Quote
The prosecution cited footage of Stockley rummaging through a bag in the back of the police vehicle. That was when Stockley retrieved the weapon, they argued. Prosecutors also pointed to the fact that Stockley's DNA had been found on the weapon.
But in his ruling, Wilson said the prosecution's argument was "not supported by the evidence."
"This court ... is simply not firmly convinced of the defendant's guilt," he wrote in his 30-page decision. "Agonizingly, this court has (pored) over the evidence again and again."

The gun was too large, Wilson said, for Stockley to hide it from the cameras at the scene.
Additionally, Wilson found that the prosecution had not sufficiently explained how Smith could have been wounded in his lower left abdomen, given he was sitting inside a car on the driver's side at the time he was killed.
The location of the wound, according to the doctor who conducted the autopsy and testified, could suggest Smith had been reaching to his right for something inside the vehicle, Wilson said.
The judge also cited two witnesses who testified during the trial that the absence of Smith's DNA on the weapon does not necessarily mean he didn't touch the gun.




Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 16, 2017, 01:44:07 PM
You left off the grand judicial reasoning the judge used...

QuoteWilson said it wouldn't be unusual for Smith to have a gun.
"An urban heroin dealer not in possession of a firearm would be an anomaly," the judge wrote.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 01:55:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 01:31:19 PM
I'm pretty sure it does.

Missed that.  You're right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 16, 2017, 02:22:17 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 16, 2017, 01:44:07 PM
You left off the grand judicial reasoning the judge used...

QuoteWilson said it wouldn't be unusual for Smith to have a gun.
"An urban heroin dealer not in possession of a firearm would be an anomaly," the judge wrote.

That one's hilarious.  I think he's watched way too much TV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 16, 2017, 04:31:28 PM
Urbane heorin dealers are so much better. I never deal with any others.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2017, 01:55:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 16, 2017, 01:31:19 PM
I'm pretty sure it does.

Missed that.  You're right.


I think I will print this out and frame it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 16, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 16, 2017, 01:44:07 PM
You left off the grand judicial reasoning the judge used...

QuoteWilson said it wouldn't be unusual for Smith to have a gun.
"An urban heroin dealer not in possession of a firearm would be an anomaly," the judge wrote.

So ignore evidence and rely on stereotypes?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 16, 2017, 07:12:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
So ignore evidence and rely on stereotypes?

I don't even know what kind of stereotype that is, other than Hollywood's.  Dealers rarely, if ever, carry a weapon.  If they get caught, possession is bad enough;  possession with intent to distribute plus a firearm?  You're just asking for exponential jail time, especially when firearms are something that's never plea bargained away, since the concept of the 4th Amendment has been whittled away over the years.  The only time a dealer carries a weapon is when he's on his way to kill another dealer.

No, this judge's ruling was completely reverse engineered to get the result they wanted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 17, 2017, 07:17:32 PM
Looks like a justified shooting to me.  Shame officers weren't armed with a Taser, would've been more fun. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/17/knife-wielding-campus-pride-leader-killed-by-police-at-georgia-tech/

Acid? Bath salts? Drunk?

[11Bravo]Gay.  +10 bonus points.[/11Bravo]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 17, 2017, 07:39:22 PM
My vote is plain old suicide by cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on September 17, 2017, 08:07:04 PM
Yeah, suicide by cop. I saw the video--the kid was shouting at the cops to shoot them while vaguely threatening with the multi-tool they were carrying. I wish the police had been a bit more eager to just physically restrain them rather than shoot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:05:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 17, 2017, 08:07:04 PMI wish the police had been a bit more eager to just physically restrain them rather than shoot.

Yes.

Is there a reason why they don't show up with shields in cases such as these?
I am guessing the prevalence of guns and the frequent shooters on campus means you never quite know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 17, 2017, 10:09:17 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:05:17 PM
Is there a reason why they don't show up with shields in cases such as these?

Yes, there is a reason.  Because it would be stupid.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on September 17, 2017, 10:17:04 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:05:17 PM
Yes.

Is there a reason why they don't show up with shields in cases such as these?
I am guessing the prevalence of guns and the frequent shooters on campus means you never quite know.

Campus PDs don't typically have that sort of gear, I believe. I might be wrong, but I don't think GA Tech's does. They don't even have tasers, but I think that might be changing soon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:17:43 PM
@ Cdm Could you explain why?


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:19:44 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 17, 2017, 10:17:04 PM
Campus PDs don't typically have that sort of gear, I believe. I might be wrong, but I don't think GA Tech's does. They don't even have tasers, but I think that might be changing soon.

Considering that university campuses are full of 20 somethings, which is typically the age a large number of mental health issues manifest themselves, you'd think that campus pds would/should have as much non-lethal gear as possible.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on September 17, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
I certainly wish that were the case.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:17:43 PM
@ Cdm Could you explain why?

Because this isn't Medieval Times, that's why.  Shields are used in riots to protect the line from debris, or to protect tactical officers in close quarters breaches.
They stop bullets, so the officers behind the officer holding the shield can shoot.

Why don't you tell me why exactly you think a shield would be helpful in this instance?  How do you envision a shield being helpful in this situation, other than getting in the way?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 01:07:09 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 17, 2017, 10:17:04 PM
Campus PDs don't typically have that sort of gear, I believe. I might be wrong, but I don't think GA Tech's does. They don't even have tasers, but I think that might be changing soon.

QuoteA Tech spokesman said campus police do not carry Tasers, or stun guns, but are equipped with pepper spray.

http://www.ajc.com/news/local/shooting-georgia-tech-student-stirs-old-debate-with-new-questions/L4ATXB1Ln4leXZdxL7ooqI/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 18, 2017, 03:15:32 AM
I agree with CdM that it's better to put your points into 2H weapons. With decent constitution you should be able to take a few hits, and dealing the extra damage is so worth it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 18, 2017, 04:53:56 AM
I think that, if you forced all cops to spend a perk on shield bash, they'd be able to handle situations like this without shooting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 05:20:11 AM
Cops aren't tanks, they're DPS.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 18, 2017, 08:06:16 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 17, 2017, 10:09:17 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 17, 2017, 10:05:17 PM
Is there a reason why they don't show up with shields in cases such as these?

Yes, there is a reason.  Because it would be stupid.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Question for CDM:

If police are certain there is a gun in the car within reach of the suspect's hand, would they approach the car with their own guns drawn or would the approach with the guns holstered but with hand on the gun ready to draw?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on September 18, 2017, 09:23:44 AM
What color is the driver's skin?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2017, 10:13:02 AM
A key element of the defense was the testimony by Stockley that his partner said "gun" - meaning that the partner saw a gun in the car, and that Stockley himself "saw the driver's hand on a gun on the passenger's seat as the Buick drove by him."

But the video shows that both Stockley and his partner did not draw their weapons but kept them holstered as they approached the case.  Stockley testified that his gun was in his holster when he got to the window.  My question is would that be normal procedure if you had just seen a gun in the "driver's hand" on the passenger seat of the car?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 01:48:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 12:58:55 AM
Why don't you tell me why exactly you think a shield would be helpful in this instance?  How do you envision a shield being helpful in this situation, other than getting in the way?

I don't know "exactly" - this was the reason I was asking you in the first place. What I do know is that shields do seem to be used in the UK for that very purpose.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/nyregion/us-police-leaders-visiting-scotland-get-lessons-on-avoiding-deadly-force.html?mcubz=0

https://www.quora.com/How-do-British-police-officers-manage-to-stop-knife-wielding-suspects-safely-when-they-dont-carry-firearms-A-knife-wielding-suspect-is-likely-to-be-shot-by-North-American-police#!n=24



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 02:07:29 PM
We have a fair bit of historical evidence that shields are good counters to knives and clubs etc, so it doesn't seem completely outlandish that police could use them effectively against knife or club wielding individuals, if they know that's what they're up against.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:19:49 PM
Uck's second link gave me the impression shields are used on knife wielders in You Kay only when the perp is barricaded in a building in they have time to call in the riot cops.  Is it practical to carry a shield around all the time?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 02:38:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:19:49 PM
Uck's second link gave me the impression shields are used on knife wielders in You Kay only when the perp is barricaded in a building in they have time to call in the riot cops.  Is it practical to carry a shield around all the time?

Probably not... at least not without making that sort of resolution approach a priority and organizing and training for it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 02:40:54 PM
From what I have read elsewhere, the usual method (again, most policemen are unarmed, in the UK) when unexpectedly confronted with a knife-wielding man, when de-escalation does not work, is to disorient the perp with a multitude of verbal commands, keep him or her at bay, while those who are trained in the use of shields arrive. Then, there are instances when what police will face is either known, or suspected, and so they call these guys in immediately.

In those more recent cases where knife-wielding perps are terrorists bent on murder rather than disturbed individuals in the height of a crisis (the most frequent occurrence), they seemed to have been taken down with batons and tackling.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:42:06 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 02:38:20 PM
Probably not... at least not without making that sort of resolution approach a priority and organizing and training for it.

We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 18, 2017, 02:43:38 PM
In the armory in Vienna I saw a sweet item that combined shield, gauntlet, sword, attachable knuckle blades, and integrated lamp. Could probably work quite well for police use.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Question for CDM:

If police are certain there is a gun in the car within reach of the suspect's hand, would they approach the car with their own guns drawn or would the approach with the guns holstered but with hand on the gun ready to draw?

There are never any hard and fast rules in police use of force, but if you think you might need to use a firearm you have it in your hand.  This isn't the Old West.  The question would be whether you have the firearm at low ready (pointed to the ground) or pointed directly at the suspect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:42:06 PM
We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

Well, yes. It would be ok to spend more time and resources on it. How can "cost efficiency" be equal to "practical"? Especially in a matter in issues which result in the death of someone?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 02:40:54 PM
From what I have read elsewhere, the usual method (again, most policemen are unarmed, in the UK) when unexpectedly confronted with a knife-wielding man, when de-escalation does not work, is to disorient the perp with a multitude of verbal commands, keep him or her at bay, while those who are trained in the use of shields arrive. Then, there are instances when what police will face is either known, or suspected, and so they call these guys in immediately.

In those more recent cases where knife-wielding perps are terrorists bent on murder rather than disturbed individuals in the height of a crisis (the most frequent occurrence), they seemed to have been taken down with batons and tackling.

If you have the time to wait until officers trained in the use of shields arrive, then you're probably not going to have a problem anyways - your suspect is not being actively aggressive.  You should be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife.

People get shot not just because they have a knife, but because they're doing something potentially dangerous with the knife - like lunging at people.  In that situation you have to use the tools that you carry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:42:06 PM
We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

Yeah, I was talking about operational efficiency.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
There are never any hard and fast rules in police use of force, but if you think you might need to use a firearm you have it in your hand.  This isn't the Old West.  The question would be whether you have the firearm at low ready (pointed to the ground) or pointed directly at the suspect.

That probably varies with jurisdiction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:13:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 03:06:51 PM
If you have the time to wait until officers trained in the use of shields arrive, then you're probably not going to have a problem anyways - your suspect is not being actively aggressive.  You should be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife.

People get shot not just because they have a knife, but because they're doing something potentially dangerous with the knife - like lunging at people.  In that situation you have to use the tools that you carry.[/quote]

Conversely, it does seem that in some places where the police carry gusn they're inclined to use them to "solve the problem" with lethal shooting readily, even in cases where more observation and de-escalation would have saved lives.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 03:14:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 03:06:51 PM
If you have the time to wait until officers trained in the use of shields arrive, then you're probably not going to have a problem anyways - your suspect is not being actively aggressive.  You should be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife.

People get shot not just because they have a knife, but because they're doing something potentially dangerous with the knife - like lunging at people.  In that situation you have to use the tools that you carry.

While I agree with the first part, I disagree with the second. You *should* be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife. However, it also seems very likely that 1) the threshold of what constitutes "dangerous" varies quite a bit, esp. in relation to what Cdm had said in the past about the culture of fear in police dept. and 2) that police themselves can contribute to escalating a situation to the point where perp becomes dangerous with a knife.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 03:15:23 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
Well, yes. It would be ok to spend more time and resources on it. How can "cost efficiency" be equal to "practical"? Especially in a matter in issues which result in the death of someone?

Cost efficient relates to practical in the sense practical is concerned with real world constraints and noninfinite resources is a real world constraint.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 03:15:23 PM
Cost efficient relates to practical in the sense practical is concerned with real world constraints and noninfinite resources is a real world constraint.

Nonetheless, cost efficiencies are not the only real world constraints even if it is your favoured lens for viewing things through.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 03:21:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 18, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
There are never any hard and fast rules in police use of force, but if you think you might need to use a firearm you have it in your hand.  This isn't the Old West.  The question would be whether you have the firearm at low ready (pointed to the ground) or pointed directly at the suspect.

That probably varies with jurisdiction.

Many things vary on jurisdiction, but I would think this is just common sense.

Police holsters are not designed for "quick draws". All the ones I've seen have a snap-on strap to make it more difficult to draw the weapon - largely to ensure that suspects don't try and grab the officer's gun.  So if you think you're going to need your firearm, it should be drawn.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
Nonetheless, cost efficiencies are not the only real world constraints even if it is your favoured lens for viewing things through.

So kind of you to disabuse me of that grave fallacy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on September 18, 2017, 03:31:35 PM
The record of the UK police in restraining dangerous folks without the use of guns is very impressive.

I can understand that the simple fact of having armed police creates a temptation, in moments of crisis, to use those guns rather than to use alternative techniques of the UK type that may well work.

The solution would be to export those techniques to other countries. However, if it is true that part of the effectiveness of those techniques requires the police to be unarmed, can that be done?

My question is this: is it possible to have police of the UK type in a society where handguns are far more available and prevalent?

The concern is that UK-style police are a product of UK society and not readily transplantable to North America.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
Nonetheless, cost efficiencies are not the only real world constraints even if it is your favoured lens for viewing things through.

So kind of you to disabuse me of that grave fallacy.

You seemed unaware, but perhaps it was just a pose?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:47:01 PM
You seemed unaware, but perhaps it was just a pose?

I've run through a couple possible scenarios in my head and the most entertaining one is a semantic discussion of "practical," which is not terribly entertaining.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 04:20:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 04:03:27 PM
I've run through a couple possible scenarios in my head and the most entertaining one is a semantic discussion of "practical," which is not terribly entertaining.

Fair :cheers:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 04:30:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Question for CDM:

If police are certain there is a gun in the car within reach of the suspect's hand, would they approach the car with their own guns drawn or would the approach with the guns holstered but with hand on the gun ready to draw?

If someone had yelled "gun" or there was a belief that someone was armed, you could be reasonably expected to approach with your weapon drawn, safety off but finger off the trigger.  In this case, even if there wasn't the expectation that he was armed, he had already used his vehicle as a weapon.  But you still need a reason to fire. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 04:39:46 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 02:07:29 PM
We have a fair bit of historical evidence that shields are good counters to knives and clubs etc, so it doesn't seem completely outlandish that police could use them effectively against knife or club wielding individuals, if they know that's what they're up against.

I could see the value of a shield in, say, a barricade situation in a room;  we once tushed a psych patient in an ER quiet room with a mattress as a shield.  But out in the open, like the Georgia Tech video?  Distance and obstacles are better tactical options.

What gets lost in all this "but he only had a knife" business is that a knife can kill you faster than a bullet.  Ballistic vests don't stop knives at all, and I've seen people who have already bled out by the time the ambulance arrived, while somebody taking 6 rounds center mass walks out of the hospital months later.  A knife can kill you quick, and it doesn't take an expert to do it.  You only need to get stuck the wrong way, and it's buh bye in minutes.

You mutts know I am not a big fan of arbitrarily using deadly force, but fuck cutlery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2017, 04:54:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 04:30:14 PM
If someone had yelled "gun" or there was a belief that someone was armed, you could be reasonably expected to approach with your weapon drawn, safety off but finger off the trigger. 

That's what I would have assumed.
Dents the credibility of the officer's claim to have seen the gun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on September 18, 2017, 05:24:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 05:20:11 AM
Cops aren't tanks, they're DPS.

Say what now?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 05:28:57 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 04:39:46 PM
I could see the value of a shield in, say, a barricade situation in a room;  we once tushed a psych patient in an ER quiet room with a mattress as a shield.  But out in the open, like the Georgia Tech video?  Distance and obstacles are better tactical options.

What gets lost in all this "but he only had a knife" business is that a knife can kill you faster than a bullet.  Ballistic vests don't stop knives at all, and I've seen people who have already bled out by the time the ambulance arrived, while somebody taking 6 rounds center mass walks out of the hospital months later.  A knife can kill you quick, and it doesn't take an expert to do it.  You only need to get stuck the wrong way, and it's buh bye in minutes.

You mutts know I am not a big fan of arbitrarily using deadly force, but fuck cutlery.

Yeah, that's all fair enough.

I'm still somewhat curious about the apparent differences between UK and US policing, and how the successes of either system can be applied to the other.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 18, 2017, 07:10:36 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:42:06 PM
We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

Well, yes. It would be ok to spend more time and resources on it. How can "cost efficiency" be equal to "practical"? Especially in a matter in issues which result in the death of someone?
They can be equal when you're interested in performing cost-benefit analysis, and I sure hope that public policy is made by people who are interested in that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 18, 2017, 07:19:38 PM
Drill that stupid fucker with less than lethal ammo
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 05:28:57 PM
I'm still somewhat curious about the apparent differences between UK and US policing, and how the successes of either system can be applied to the other.

US policing would be fine if officers realized there aren't time limits on calls for service, learn to engage and communicate, and that terminal escalation doesn't always need to be taken ASAP: look at Eric Garner--nothing five minutes' worth of talking couldn't have solved. 

Kinda surprised that Atlanta PD wasn't on the scene;  it's GT, for fuck's sake.  It's right downtown.  APD is moments away.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: citizen k on September 24, 2017, 03:05:58 PM
Hooray for third world style security sweeps and "police crackdowns":

https://www.yahoo.com/news/forcibly-arrested-st-louis-werent-protesting-175459809.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/forcibly-arrested-st-louis-werent-protesting-175459809.html)

Quote
Police said people were arrested only if they didn't follow orders to disperse, but some people said they had nowhere to go because police had boxed them in.
The undercover officer was mistaken for a suspect who was carrying chemicals that could be sprayed on officers. When the man refused to show his hands, he was knocked down and hit several times, with his hands tied behind his back and his mouth bloodied, the Post-Dispatch reported .
On Friday, Mayor Lyda Krewson asked the director of public safety to investigate how the officer was treated.
During the same protest, Air Force Lt. Alex Nelson, 27, who lives in the neighborhood with his wife, said they were trapped in the kettling, the tactic police used to box in demonstrators. He said he was kicked in the face, blinded by pepper spray and dragged away.
"I hear the police say it was their street, but it's literally my street," he said. "I have coffee on that street, and I own property on that street. We were not active protesters. We were looking into the neighborhood to observe events that were unfolding."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on September 27, 2017, 01:19:24 AM
Quote from: citizen k on September 06, 2017, 01:49:06 PM


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-nurse-alex-wubbels-thanked-hero_us_59acf0bde4b0b5e530ff7db5 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-nurse-alex-wubbels-thanked-hero_us_59acf0bde4b0b5e530ff7db5)

Quote


An Idaho police department is hailing nurse Alex Wubbels as a hero for standing up to Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne, who tried to take blood from a patient without a warrant or the patient’s consent.

That patient, it turns out, is William Gray, a reserve officer in Rigby, a city about 15 miles north of Idaho Falls.

“The Rigby Police Department would like to thank the nurse involved and hospital staff for standing firm, and protecting Officer Gray’s rights as a patient and victim,” the agency said on Facebook. “Protecting the rights of others is truly a heroic act.”

Gray, who is also a truck driver, was badly injured in July when a suspect in a car fleeing police slammed into his truck. The suspect died, and Gray was flown to the University of Utah Burn Center.

In the hospital, police tried to take blood from Gray, who was not under arrest and not conscious and therefore unable to consent to the blood draw. In addition, police did not have a warrant.

Wubbels told Payne he could not draw blood under those circumstances and even got other hospital officials on the phone to confirm that policy to the detective.

She was arrested, and eventually released without being charged.

Payne is now facing a criminal investigation. Another officer is also on leave as the incident is investigated.

The Rigby Police Department said it was not aware of the incident surrounding the blood draw until last week.

“It is important to remember that Officer Gray is the victim in this horrible event, and that at no time was he under any suspicion of wrongdoing,” the department said. “As he continues to heal, we would ask that his family be given privacy, respect, and prayers for continued recovery and peace.”




The patient she wouldn't let them take a blood sample from has died.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2017, 06:09:05 AM
What's your point, dps?  People struck in head-on collisions and who susequently combust into flames don't always live.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on September 27, 2017, 06:24:17 AM
No point, just an update on the story.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: sbr on October 17, 2017, 08:53:57 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/16/report-finds-state-lab-withheld-breathalyzer-test-results/bEf90jmMO2iPJbSdPpnjuJ/amp.html

QuoteReport finds state lab withheld breathalyzer test results

By Aimee Ortiz and Maria Cramer Globe Staff
October 17, 2017

The head of a state crime lab office was fired Monday after investigators found that staff withheld exculpatory evidence from defense lawyers in thousands of drunken-driving cases since 2011, a disclosure that could threaten many convictions.

In a report released Monday, state public safety officials concluded that the Office of Alcohol Testing routinely withheld documents from defense lawyers in a lawsuit challenging the reliability of breathalyzer test results due to an "unwritten policy not to turn these documents over to any requester."

The documents included evidence that breath testing devices had failed to properly calibrate during the office's certification process, the report found.

"We conclude that OAT leadership made serious errors of judgment in its responses to court-ordered discovery, errors which were enabled by a longstanding and insular institutional culture that was reflexively guarded . . . and which was inattentive to the legal obligations borne by those whose work facilitates criminal prosecutions," the report found.

"These failures left prosecutors in the position of unwittingly representing to the court, and to defense counsel, that the Commonwealth had complied with its discovery obligations, when it fact it had not," the report concluded.

The investigation was conducted by the state's Executive Office of Public Safety and Security. The Office of Alcohol Testing is part of the State Police crime laboratory and oversees the breath testing program for the state. It had been led since December 2013 by Melissa O'Meara, who was fired and replaced by Curtis Wood, the undersecretary for forensic science and technology .

Daniel Bennett, the state's secretary of public safety, said he plans to hire a retired state judge "with experience presiding over criminal cases" to help the office handle court-ordered discovery.

The state launched its investigation in August amid allegations from defense lawyers that the office failed to turn over evidence that the machines may have provided hundreds of flawed results over a two-year period.

The lawyers, who represent 750 drunken-driving defendants in the lawsuit, said the state's findings would have sweeping consequences.

"This is going to impact every single breathalyzer test case," said Joseph Bernard, lead counsel in the case. "Every single breath test from 2011 to the present will be impacted by this."

The case is reminiscent of the actions of Annie Dookhan, a former state chemist who was convicted of tampering with evidence and fabricating results in drug cases, leading to the dismissal of more than 21,000 charges in 2016.

Bernard said the office was run with an "us versus them" mentality and said he believed the failure to turn over documents was intentional.

"It's disingenuous to say they made an unconscious mistake," he said. "When you're ordered to turn over all work sheets, and you don't send over 400 failed calibration work sheets, that's not legalese."

The lawyers received nearly 2,000 work sheets completed by state chemists who calibrated the machines. Nearly all showed the machines gave accurate readings. But the 400 tests without accompanying work sheets showed flawed results, according to the lawyers.

The state report determined that the alcohol testing office handles its own requests for discovery and has no written policies on discovery. Its responses to requests "appeared to have been designed to minimize disclosure."

"While nothing prevented OAT from seeking legal assistance . . . in practice OAT often sought to answer legal process without consultation with attorneys," investigators wrote.

O'Meara indicated "she had received no formal training in how to respond to discovery requests."

Bernard said the office had an almost "holier than thou" attitude that led them to "hide the ball when it should have been an open process, as it is in many other states."

"It's so unfair to the prosecutors, the judge, every citizen, not just those who went to jail or lost their license," he said. "Everybody who pays taxes deserves better."

Even before the investigation began, prosecutors had decided not to offer evidence collected by the breath test machines in trials or plea negotiations.

Thomas Workman, a lawyer for the drunk-driving defendants and a forensic scientist who discovered the withheld evidence, said the office's failings go beyond incompetence.

"This is pretty fundamental stuff and it just wasn't being done," he said.

The episode marks "another chapter in the [Annie] Dookhan legacy," Workman said. "I'm surprised that they haven't put crime-scene tape around the Office of Alcohol Testing."

Workman and Bernard said they are still waiting on evidence from the state.

"We were told that it's in the mail three weeks ago?" Workman said. "I don't know what's going on. Something is going on though, and it's not good."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 17, 2017, 09:52:10 PM
The niggerhaters here will appreciate this news: "Cop Board Made Up Of Cops Acquit Cop For Not Doing Cop Stuff Correctly"

After all, if you can walk away from three broken vertebrae and a partially severed spinal cord, what's some paperwork.  Back to threatening the wife!


QuoteFreddie Gray case: Baltimore Police Lt. Brian Rice cleared of all administrative charges
Tim Prudente
The Failing Baltimore Sun
November 17, 2017


When the verdict of "not guilty" came, Baltimore Police Lt. Brian Rice shook hands with his attorney, hugged his parents and drove a mile to police headquarters to get his job back.

The lieutenant was reinstated Friday, shortly after his acquittal on administrative charges that he had neglected police procedures during the arrest of Freddie Gray. The verdict absolves Rice once and for all.

"He simply wants to go home, hug his kids, kiss his wife, :lol: have a good holiday and really, honestly, try to get on with his life," said his attorney, Michael Davey.

The ruling by a three-member panel of police officers comes more than two years after Gray was severely injured in the back of a police van. Rice supervised Gray's arrest and was cleared last year of criminal charges including manslaughter.

Rice, 44, showed no emotion as the chairman of the panel read the verdicts.

"Not guilty ... not guilty ... not guilty," repeated Maj. Melvin Powell of the Prince George's County Police Department.

Rice left immediately, without speaking publicly, from the University of Baltimore hall that served as his courtroom for four days. He plans to take one week off, then return to work, Davey said.

Rice had been accused of breaking police protocol during Gray's arrest. He had faced administrative charges including failing to secure Gray with a seat belt in the police van and neglecting critical radio broadcasts.

His acquittal comes one week after the van's driver, Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., was found not guilty of 21 administrative charges.

Baltimore police brought administrative charges against five of the six officers who were involved in Gray's arrest and transport in April 2015. Two officers, Edward Nero and Garrett Miller, accepted minor discipline and are back to work. Goodson, Rice and Sgt. Alicia White chose to fight their charges before a police trial board.


White's trial is scheduled to begin Dec. 5.

"These cases aren't changing," Davey said. "The evidence was the same in Officer Goodson's case. It's the same in Lieutenant Rice's case. It's going to be the same in Sergeant White's case."

Davey urged city officials to think twice about their case against White. "I would hope they take a look at what they have and reconsider moving forward," he said.

Baltimore Solicitor Andre Davis said the city will not drop its case against White.

"We have to see the process through," he said. "It may appear to be unwarranted or ill-advised, but we believe that the process is important. People need to see that the Police Department really is committed to the process."

Rice, a 20-year veteran of the force, maintained his innocence. He was the highest-ranking officer on duty when Gray was arrested on April 12, 2015. He placed the 25-year-old in the back of the police van handcuffed and shackled but not secured with a seat belt, prosecutors said.

After the van ride, Gray was found unconscious with broken vertebrae in his neck. He fell into a coma and died one week later.

The police trial board was tasked with deciding whether Rice acted with reason or neglect. Did he fail to read an email with the new seat-belt policy requiring all detainees be secured? Did he neglect to listen closely to his police radio? Did he fail to treat the van as a crime scene after Gray was hurt?


Duke presented those questions to the panel during the four-day trial. He urged the trial board to hold Rice accountable, calling him the "quarterback" on the Sunday morning of Gray's arrest.

The Baltimore Police Department turned to the Montgomery County Police Department to independently investigate the actions of those who arrested Gray. The investigation led to the administrative charges.

Davey, the defense attorney, argued that the investigation was superficial, saying only nine witnesses were interviewed in nine months. During trial, he sharply questioned Montgomery County Police Capt. Willie Parker-Loan, who conceded to facts that undermined his own conclusions.

A conviction on any of the charges would have sent Rice before Police Commissioner Kevin Davis for punishment, which could have included termination.

Davey sought to shift the blame from the officers to the Police Department, saying policies and equipment failed those who arrested Gray and were prosecuted after his death. He argued that the department failed to properly notify officers of a new policy requiring detainees be seat-belted in vans. The vans themselves, he argued, were dangerous.

"The Baltimore Police Department had some very inefficient policies and procedures in place," he said. "And they clearly had some inherently dangerous equipment."


Police Commissioner Kevin Davis declined to comment on the verdict Friday.

The administrative trials came more than a year after the officers were either acquitted of criminal charges in Gray's death or had their charges dropped by Baltimore State's Attorney Marilyn J. Mosby.

Gray's death was a tragedy, Davey said, but not a crime. "No officers intended for Mr. Gray to be injured and pass away," he said. "It's a terrible tragedy and, honestly, that's all it is."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2017, 03:36:17 AM
Whoops


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOy7JDkVAAAel5Y?format=jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 19, 2017, 02:03:17 AM
It is reassuring to find out that Grey deaths did not, apparently, involve any actions of any kind that could be considered to be an issue of any sort.

Sometimes people just tragically break their necks while in the custody of the police, and that isn't necessarily a crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2017, 02:15:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 19, 2017, 02:03:17 AM
Sometimes people just tragically break their necks while in the custody of the police, and that isn't necessarily a crime.

It's apparently no longer in the directives manual, either.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 29, 2017, 12:45:31 AM
Lol, now that's cheeky!  :lol:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/28/jeff-sessions-failure-to-recall-gives-defense-lawyers-new-argument-in-police-shooting-case/?utm_term=.12d43d58166c
QuoteEarlier this month, when Attorney General Jeff Sessions changed his account of what he knew about the Trump campaign's interactions with Russia, he stressed that he had "always told the truth" as he remembered it at the time.

"I've answered every question to the best of my recollection," he testified in a closely watched congressional hearing.

Now, in an unrelated matter, a former North Charleston, S.C., police officer is hoping that Sessions's memory lapses will help him persuade a judge to show some leniency as he awaits sentencing for fatally shooting an unarmed black man.

Federal prosecutors say that Michael Slager lied repeatedly about why he fired eight rounds at Walter Scott's back in April 2015 and that he should be punished with an enhanced sentence for obstruction of justice.

Slager's defense attorneys disagree, and to bolster their argument, they're citing Sessions's appearance before the House Judiciary Committee on Nov. 14.

In a federal court filing last week, Slager's attorneys said the former officer had not, in fact, lied when he gave an ever-shifting account of the shooting during two years of investigations and court proceedings, at times contradicted by cellphone footage of the incident. Rather, they said, his memory had faltered under pressure.

"A Swiss cheese memory is a symptom of stress, not an indicator of lying," Slager's attorneys wrote, citing testimony from a medical expert.

To further illustrate the point, they quoted at length from Sessions's testimony.

In the November hearing, Sessions acknowledged for the first time that he remembered a meeting where a foreign policy adviser, George Papadopoulos, floated a possible meeting between then-candidate Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. He had previously said he didn't think anyone from the Trump campaign had had communications with Russians.

Sessions blamed those and other lapses on the chaos of the Trump campaign, saying "my story has never changed."

Slager's attorneys saw a direct parallel.

"Unlike Slager, who had been in what he perceived as a life and death struggle before he made his statements, Sessions had time to prepare for his Congressional testimony, yet still often got it wrong," they wrote in their filing.

"Why? According to Sessions, he was working in chaotic conditions created by the Trump campaign," they continued. "This was undoubtedly stressful, though not as stressful as having shot a man to death, or dealing with the aftermath of that, or facing the death penalty or life in prison. As Sessions made clear in his statement, a failure to recall, or an inaccurate recollection, does not a liar make."

The unorthodox argument is seemingly designed to put the Department of Justice lawyers handling the case in an awkward position. If they continue to insist that Slager is a liar, the defense's theory seems to go, then they're essentially calling their boss a liar, too.


"Like Sessions, Slager never lied or misled anyone," the defense attorneys' filing reads. "Like Sessions, he answered the questions that were asked. When he had his memory refreshed, he added the refreshed recollection to his testimony. When he failed to remember certain items, it can be attributed to the stress or chaos of the event during which the memory should have been formed."

Slager, 36, gunned down Scott, 50, in North Charleston after Scott fled a traffic stop for a broken brake light. Scott, who was unarmed, was running away when Slager fired on him. He died on the scene, struck by five of Slager's eight shots. Cellphone video captured the shooting, which became a rallying cry for police accountability advocates around the country.

After a mistrial on a murder charge, Slager pleaded guilty in May to a federal civil rights charge. Prosecutors said Scott posed no threat to Slager.

Sentencing is scheduled to take place next week. The Department of Justice asked the court last week to find the underlying offense to be second-degree murder and to sentence Slager to life in prison. Defense attorneys contend the offense should be voluntary manslaughter.

Prosecutors are seeking an enhancement on the sentence for obstruction of justice. They claim that Slager gave "false and misleading information to his supervisors and state investigators" and provided "misleading and inaccurate testimony under oath during proceedings in state and federal court."

Specifically, Slager told investigators that Scott had attacked him, stolen his Taser and was charging toward him when he opened fire. As the case progressed and footage of the incident showed otherwise, he changed his account, eventually saying stress had given him a "fuzzy" memory of the shooting.

"All of the defendant's false claims that Scott had acted aggressively towards him before the shooting were made in attempt to justify his unlawful shooting of the victim," prosecutors wrote in their filing. The filing also alleges that Slager moved his Taser to make it seem like Scott was the aggressor.

"For over two years, the defendant continuously lied about his conduct," the filing read, "propagating a false and evolving narrative that he was attacked by Walter Scott."

Slager's attorneys said that such a characterization was wrong. In addition to Sessions, they cited a forensic psychiatrist who testified that high levels of stress interfered with memory-building in both the short and long term.

"Apparently," defense attorneys wrote, "the DOJ classifies a lie as anything that is inconsistent with their version of the story."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on November 29, 2017, 01:18:49 AM
I'm glad he pled guilty, but rationally, I don't understand why he did that.  Cops all over the country get off with murder, and he himself already notched up one hung jury.  After another hung jury or two, he would've been off the hook.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on December 04, 2017, 10:59:11 AM
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/363103-massachusetts-cop-fired-after-commenting-love-this-on-a-photo-of-car

QuoteCop fired after commenting 'love this' on Charlottesville rally car attack photo

A Springfield, Mass. police officer has been fired after making inflammatory comments on Facebook in August about the fatal car attack at a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., according to MassLive.

Conrad Lariviere reportedly wrote, "Hahahaha love this. Maybe people shouldn't block roadways," in a comment on an article about the car that struck a crowd of counter-protestors at the rally, killing 32-year-old Heather Heyer and injuring others.

Lariviere apologized, but Springfield Police Commissioner John Barbieri said last Friday that he decided to fire Lariviere after an investigation, and said that Lariviere "discredited the department," according to MassLive. Thousands signed a petition calling for Lariviere's firing.

"It was determined that Officer Lariviere impaired the operation of the Springfield Police Department or its employees and discredited the department," Barbieri said.

Lariviere made other comments on the post after being called out for his initial remarks, saying that another commenter lives "in a fantasy land with the rest of America while I deal with the real danger."

The local police union representing Springfield's police department said in a statement that it is "disappointed" by the decision to terminate Lariviere's employment, arguing that he made the comments as a private citizen.

"His point was that such disorderly behavior has serious consequences, and both sides of the dispute bore responsible for the disruptions," the statement read.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 04, 2017, 11:05:39 AM
No Facebook, no twitter. You never know what stupid shit you might say in a weak moment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on December 04, 2017, 11:30:19 AM
I don't think he was having a weak moment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on December 04, 2017, 11:52:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 04, 2017, 11:30:19 AM
I don't think he was having a weak moment.

This - I can think of lots of embarrassing things I could admit to publicly in a moment of weakness: approval of Nazis murdering someone isn't among them, though!  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 04, 2017, 12:55:31 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 04, 2017, 11:52:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 04, 2017, 11:30:19 AM
I don't think he was having a weak moment.

This - I can think of lots of embarrassing things I could admit to publicly in a moment of weakness: approval of Nazis murdering someone isn't among them, though!  :lol:

Yeah, that's a pretty fucking low bar to hope that your officers can manage, isn't it?

Don't cheer on Nazi's murdering people? Seems like a reasonable request.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 06, 2017, 06:58:36 PM
The problem with social media is that everyone attacks you for the one post where you cheer on the murder, but no one gives you credit for all the posts where you don't cheer on murders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 08, 2017, 01:17:21 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-shaver-shooting-ex-arizona-police-officer-not-guilty-murder-n827641
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on December 08, 2017, 03:28:48 PM
FFS.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 08, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on December 08, 2017, 03:28:48 PM
FFS.

'Robocop' less a dystopia, satire or warning, now it's a prediction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 08, 2017, 03:44:02 PM
It's just another front of the culture war.  Michael Slager's lawyer royally fucked up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
That's not a video of a police-related shooting.  That's a 15 minute torture and execution video.


As long as it's tolerated, it will continue.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 08, 2017, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
That's not a video of a police-related shooting.  That's a 15 minute torture and execution video.


As long as it's tolerated, it will continue.

Didn't want to watch the video, but did see a still of it, figured it would be really ugly.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on December 08, 2017, 04:43:11 PM
No reason to fear the cops. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2017, 05:17:28 PM
Of all the police shooting vids in recent memory, I have to say that the 18 minute version linked in The Atlantic article is probably the most horrific.  No wonder the guy was crying by then.  15 minutes of bullshit commands and constant threats.  It's a fucking torture video.


I would say I just don't understand anymore, but at this point it's beyond the ability to understand.  I can't even comprehend it anymore.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on December 08, 2017, 05:48:36 PM
But the policeman was terrified!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 08, 2017, 06:23:17 PM
If they won't convict on that, they won't convict on anything.

What sort of lesson is the public suppose to draw from this?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on December 08, 2017, 06:28:26 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 08, 2017, 06:23:17 PM
If they won't convict on that, they won't convict on anything.

What sort of lesson is the public suppose to draw from this?

That the police can shoot you at will.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 08, 2017, 06:28:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 08, 2017, 06:23:17 PM
If they won't convict on that, they won't convict on anything.

What sort of lesson is the public suppose to draw from this?

Avoid* the free-fire zones?




*maybe move to Canada.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2017, 08:53:49 PM
Chicago PD are fucking crazy!

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/12/us/beneath-the-skin/?sr=sharebar_twitter
QuoteHorrific cuts cover her son's body after he's shot dead by Chicago police, and Cynthia Lane wants answers. A yearlong investigation by CNN's Rosa Flores shows the truth is not always black and white.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 18, 2017, 06:53:01 PM
http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/two-officers-shot-suspect-killed-in-bremerton/665268373

BPD Officer Mayfield has 42 years exp.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2018, 06:35:36 PM
Texas gets one right!

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-police-officer-found-guilty-murder-death-teenager/story?id=57455946

QuoteFormer Texas police officer found guilty of murder in death of teenager Jordan Edwards

By Bill Hutchinson

Aug 28, 2018, 6:25 PM ET

A former Texas police officer was found guilty of murder on Tuesday in the 2017 killing of an unarmed African-American teenager who was shot as he and his friends started to drive away from a house party in a car.

A Dallas County jury convicted Roy Oliver, who is white and a former officer for the Balch Springs Police Department, of murdering Jordan Edwards when he fired multiple times into a car full of teens and struck the 15-year-old in the head.

The jury announced its verdict just before 3 p.m. local time, after deliberating 13 hours over two days.

As Dallas County District Court Judge Brandon Birmingham read the verdict, Oliver, 38, wearing a gray suit and standing between his two defense attorneys, showed no emotion.

After the jury filed out of the courtroom, relatives and friends of Jordan hugged each other. Some, including Jordan's mother, Charmaine Edwards, broke into tears.

Odell Edwards, Jordan's father, sprung up from his seat in the front row of the courtroom and hugged Assistant District Attorney Mike Snipes.

"I'm very, very happy," Odell Edwards told reporters. "It's been a long time, a hard year."

The jury found Oliver not guilty of aggravated assault for firing with a rifle into the car of teenagers.

Jordan was shot to death on April 29, 2017, when officers responded to a late-night house party in Balch Springs, a suburb southeast of Dallas.

During the trial, Officer Tyler Gross, Oliver's partner that night, testified that when he and Oliver arrived at the scene he spotted a car full of people outside the house apparently attempting to drive away.

Gross testified that as he ran toward the car he ordered the driver to stop.

Oliver testified during the trial that he thought Gross was in danger of being run over and fired an AK-15 rifle five times at the car, hitting Jordan who was in the front passenger seat. He also testified that before the shooting, he was inside the house and that he believed he heard gunfire erupt outside.

"I had to make a decision," Oliver told jurors. "This car is about to hit my partner. I had no other option."

Oliver initially told his superiors that the car was backup up toward Gross when he opened fire. But police later said police body camera and dash-cam footage showed the car was moving forward and away from the officers when Oliver shot at the vehicle.

Three days after the shooting, Balch Springs Police Chief Jonathan Haber announced that Oliver, who joined the police force in 2011, had been fired.

During his closing argument, Snipes described Oliver as reckless and out of control.

"This guy is an angry, out-of-control walking bomb, a time bomb that went off on April 29, 2017," Snipes told the jury.

He played the jurors the police dash-cam footage and freeze-framed it to show Jordan, wearing a light blue top, in the front seat of the car just before he was shot.

"He didn't know it, but he's got about 10 seconds to live," Snipes told the jury.

Snipes said Jordan, a star football player at Mesquite High School in Balch Springs, had a bright future that was cut short by Oliver.

"He really had a million friends, [he] really had a 3.5 grade point average, he really did want to go to [the University of] Alabama to play football," Snipes told the jury. "He did not deserve to die that night."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 20, 2018, 02:58:45 PM
Heard there was a mass shooting in Maryland.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 20, 2018, 03:35:12 PM
Yea, by a woman
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on September 20, 2018, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 20, 2018, 03:35:12 PM
Yea, by a woman

Goddamn MeToo
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 12, 2018, 06:50:28 PM
Black security guard prevents a mass shooting, is immediately gunned down by the police when they show up.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/black-security-guard-stops-shooter-bar-gets-gunned-cop-mistook-criminal/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on November 12, 2018, 07:25:37 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 12, 2018, 06:50:28 PM
Black security guard prevents a mass shooting, is immediately gunned down by the police when they show up.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/black-security-guard-stops-shooter-bar-gets-gunned-cop-mistook-criminal/

QuoteThe Midlothian Police Department has so far released very little information about the shooting and is only confirming that one of its officers was involved. According to WGN, the State Police Public Integrity Task Force is running an investigation of the officer's decision to open fire on Roberson.

Pastor Patricia Hill of Chicago's Purposed Church tells WGN TV that she's horrified to see another young black man fatally shot by police despite the fact that he had risked his own life to prevent a potential mass shooting.

"Once again it's the continued narrative that we see of shoot first, ask questions later," she said.

I wonder how many quotes they had to ignore before finding one of someone with some sort of vague status to jump to the obvious conclusion needed to make the story really pop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on November 23, 2018, 08:00:51 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46314065 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46314065)

Quote

Sandra Parks: Anti-gun student, 13, killed by stray bullet
23 November 2018 

"We are in a state of chaos. In the city in which I live, I hear and see examples of chaos almost every day. Little children are victims of senseless gun violence..."

Two years ago, 11-year-old Milwaukee schoolgirl Sandra Parks wrote these words in an award-winning essay about the murders in her city.

On Monday night, aged 13, she was shot by a stray bullet fired into her home.

Her frantic family called 911, but Sandra died at the scene.

The girl's mother, Bernice Parks, told police she had gone to bed early while her children watched TV. She woke to the sound of gunshots shortly before 20:00, and found her daughter bleeding on the floor.

"She said, 'Momma, I'm shot. Call the police,'" Ms Parks told TV station WITI. "I looked at her. She didn't cry. She wasn't hollering. She was just so peaceful... She didn't deserve to leave this world like that."
Pro-gun tweet provokes doctors' fury
America's gun culture in 10 charts

Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett described the situation as "insanity", telling reporters: "Tragically, her death was caused by someone who just decided they were going to shoot bullets into her house, and she's dead. A 13-year-old, on Thanksgiving week, on a school night, in her bedroom, and she died."

Mr Barrett speculated that the shooter may have wanted to "settle a score, express anger, try to scare someone", saying on Tuesday: "All we know is that a 13-year-old died last night in her bedroom."

Midwestern paper the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports that one suspect, Isaac D. Barnes, has been charged with homicide and a second man, Untrell Oden, faces two counts for allegedly helping to safeguard two guns.

Mr Barnes' ex-girlfriend reportedly flagged his possible involvement to a police officer at the scene. She said he had approached her parked car on a nearby street carrying an assault-style rifle and wearing a mask.

She said he swore at her and told her "you lucky the kids are in the car. I was gonna fan you down."

Police found Mr Barnes in a nearby home, hiding in a closet.

Milwaukee's murder rate has been falling since a spike between 2014 and 2015, but the city still ranks among America's most deadly, FBI figures show.

....



No comment necessary on my part.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 30, 2018, 01:14:52 AM
The undercover cop part is the only reason there's hope for conviction here.

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2018/11/29/4-st-louis-cops-charged-over-beating-undercover-office-during-stockley-protest?platform=hootsuite

Quote
Four St. Louis city officers are facing multiple felony charges for beating a suspect who was not threatening them — who was actually an undercover cop —  then conspiring together to mislead investigators and influence the testimony of potential witnesses.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 18, 2018, 03:18:43 PM
https://www.ksat.com/news/female-inmate-who-died-in-bcso-custody-had-been-held-since-july-on-a-300-bond

QuoteInmate who died in BCSO custody had been held since July on $300 bond

SAN ANTONIO - Court records confirm that an inmate who died while in the custody of the Bexar County Sheriff's Office on Friday had been held in jail on a $300 bond since July.

An official with the Bexar County Medical Examiner's Office identified the woman Saturday as 61-year-old Janice Dotson-Stephens.

Dotson-Stephens was arrested July 17 on a criminal charge of trespassing on private property.

County clerk records show the misdemeanor charge was her first arrest in Bexar County.

BCSO officials said Friday that Dotson-Stephens appeared to have died of natural causes and had been held at the infirmary at the annex detention center.

Officials have not said why Dotson-Stephens stayed in the jail so long, since a $30 payment would have likely been all it took to release her on bond.

Court records show she refused to be interviewed the day after the arrest, as well as on four straight days in late July.

Dotson-Stephens again refused to be interviewed August 4. A court-appointed attorney was assigned to her August 8, according to court records.

She was ordered to go through a psychological evaluation on August 27, 10 days after she refused to make a court appearance.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on December 18, 2018, 05:05:26 PM
Reading through that I was going to guess mental illness was in play.

Those kinds of cases are incredibly difficult.  I had a guy once in our specialized mental health court.  We wanted to let him out - I think he just needed to promise to stay away from the victim's residence.  But no, he wasn't signing anything, it was all F-this and F-that.  If we just open the door and let him out he'll never come back to court, and he'll go right back to committing the same offence.

No idea what happened in this case, but up here you ask for a fitness evaluation and you could easily be looking at 2 months, on an offence not worth anywhere near that amount.  So what do you do?  We try to find someone who can look after the person and help them come to court, but if you're dealing with a homeless person they may not have those supports.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on December 18, 2018, 09:42:40 PM
How does someone who is already in jail just refuse to appear in court? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 18, 2018, 11:31:22 PM
Maybe they didn't feel it was worth the effort to compel her.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on February 15, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
A mass shooting has happened in  Aurora, a suburb about 40 miles (65km) from Chicago.

No details, other than several casualties.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:06:52 PM
Did the police do it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on February 15, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:06:52 PM
Did the police do it?

I doubt it; couldn't find the mass shooting thread, non-school one that is, so thought this would be the best place.

Alternatively someone could start a non-education routine mass shooting in the US thread? :unsure: 

Update here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314)

5 murdered, 5 police officers shot, others injured, the named 45 year old gunman also dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 15, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:06:52 PM
Did the police do it?

I doubt it; couldn't find the mass shooting thread, non-school one that is, so thought this would be the best place.

Alternatively someone could start a non-education routine mass shooting in the US thread? :unsure: 

Update here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314)

5 murdered, 5 police officers shot, others injured, the named 45 year old gunman also dead.

Page 1, near the top just for you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on February 15, 2019, 07:32:32 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 15, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:06:52 PM
Did the police do it?

I doubt it; couldn't find the mass shooting thread, non-school one that is, so thought this would be the best place.

Alternatively someone could start a non-education routine mass shooting in the US thread? :unsure: 

Update here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314)

5 murdered, 5 police officers shot, others injured, the named 45 year old gunman also dead.

Page 1, near the top just for you.

Thanks.  :cheers:

(but you're indirectly blaming the NRA? )
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 15, 2019, 07:32:32 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 15, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 15, 2019, 07:06:52 PM
Did the police do it?

I doubt it; couldn't find the mass shooting thread, non-school one that is, so thought this would be the best place.

Alternatively someone could start a non-education routine mass shooting in the US thread? :unsure: 

Update here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47261314)

5 murdered, 5 police officers shot, others injured, the named 45 year old gunman also dead.

Page 1, near the top just for you.

Thanks.  :cheers:

(but you're indirectly blaming the NRA? )

I don't support the National Russian Association...those dirty money mother fuckers
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on May 31, 2019, 06:34:34 PM
11 dead in a shooting in Virginia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2019, 07:55:55 PM
City worker shooting up municipal building.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on June 01, 2019, 12:56:29 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2019, 07:55:55 PM
City worker shooting up municipal building.

Clearly, things like this couldn't happen if we abolished municipal governments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2019, 01:23:38 AM
Clearly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2019, 01:59:52 AM
Police taking him out (if they did) seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 30, 2019, 10:46:12 AM
Just another traffic stop in Texas (safe for work):

https://twitter.com/i/status/1156049011058597893
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 02, 2019, 11:39:47 AM
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/455937-texas-police-officer-fatally-shoots-woman-while-firing-at

QuoteTexas Police officer fatally shoots woman while firing at unleashed dog

A Texas police officer shot and killed a woman in Arlington Thursday night when he fired a shot at an unleashed dog charging towards him.

The patrol officer was dispatched around 5:20 p.m. to do a welfare check for a woman reportedly passed out in a grassy area, the Arlington Police Department said in a statement.

As an officer approached, he noticed an unleashed dog. When he began to call out to the women, the dog reportedly started barking and charged toward the officer.

"The officer retreated backwards from the running dog while drawing his duty firearm. The officer discharged his firearm multiple times towards the dog," police said in a statement. "After the shots were fired, the woman yelled out and it was apparent she was injured.

The woman was transported to a local hospital where she was later pronounced dead.

CBS 11 News reported that the victim was later identified by the Tarrant County Medical Examiner as 30-year-old Margarita Victoria Brooks.

The whole incident was captured on the officer's body camera, which will be included in the ongoing investigation, according to police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 02, 2019, 12:25:52 PM
Is there no other way to deal with a dog than using your gun? I mean how many cops each year are killed by dogs?

Granted I am no expert on police training, but I feel like this is not what they are trained to do in this kind of situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 02, 2019, 12:43:04 PM
There are so many failures there it isn't even funny. Using lethal force when not necessary, not checking your field of fire, etc., etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 02, 2019, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 02, 2019, 12:25:52 PM
Is there no other way to deal with a dog than using your gun? I mean how many cops each year are killed by dogs?

Granted I am no expert on police training, but I feel like this is not what they are trained to do in this kind of situation.

This is increasingly what they are trained to do. To respond to tense situation with violence or threat of violence.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/what-dog-shootings-reveal-about-american-policing/533319/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 05, 2019, 08:27:07 AM
I'm sure the local PD will take all reasonable steps to ensure that the incident is investigated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 05, 2019, 09:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.
I think beating the dog would have been a  bigger PR disaster than shooting it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 09:17:09 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 05, 2019, 09:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.
I think beating the dog would have been a  bigger PR disaster than shooting it.

For sure, especially as both the dog and the officer would have been in a pretty sorry state by the time one of them won.  :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 05, 2019, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.

Based on what was in that video, petting the dog would have been a viable option.  Perhaps a scratch behind the ear?  Bullet in the face would not be a high on the list.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 05, 2019, 01:33:12 PM
When I was a paper boy, I hated dogs.  If I knew I could just shoot them, there wouldn't have been a dog left within five miles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 05, 2019, 02:18:55 PM
The US Postal Service trains their carriers to deal with dogs. Maybe they can offer their services to train police officers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 05, 2019, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.

Somehow police in countries where they don't typically carry guns manage to handle dogs all the same.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 05, 2019, 07:28:12 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 05, 2019, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.

Somehow police in countries where they don't typically carry guns manage to handle dogs all the same.

But this is 'Murica and those countries are losers. Sad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on August 05, 2019, 07:48:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 09:17:09 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 05, 2019, 09:12:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 05, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
No question the officer messed up big time, but what in terms of shooting the dog, what alternatives does one have?

Run back to his car? That's not exactly what one would expect from the police.  He was there to find out what happened to a passed-out person. Can't be sitting in his car calling for backup because a dog chased him there.

Taze the dog? Well yeah that's an option, I am assuming he didn't have one?

Use his baton? Yeah, good luck with that.
I think beating the dog would have been a  bigger PR disaster than shooting it.

For sure, especially as both the dog and the officer would have been in a pretty sorry state by the time one of them won.  :D

If the dog was truly aggressive and threatening, pepper spray would seem to be the better option, compared to shooting it.  Far better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 05, 2019, 07:56:11 PM
But a dog barking at you, even while running towards you, is more often than not completely harmless.

You can tell when a dog is intent on attacking - they don't just bark and run towards you. They are growling, head hung low, and move with intent and purpose.

Most dogs bark because they are excited. Its what dogs do.

Some cops are looking for an excuse to use their gun. A barking dog seems like a good one. I WAS UNDER ATTACK!!!!!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 06, 2019, 07:10:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RJUMm-hd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RJUMm-hd0)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 06, 2019, 04:10:51 PM
Meanwhile in Galveston, TX. z

(https://i0.wp.com/metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/beto-b271.png?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C658&ssl=1)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 06, 2019, 05:43:41 PM
I read that article. They walked him down the street 2-3 blocks like that. Jesus. Talk about humiliating the guy. Not to mention the visuals on that.

We really are back in 1950s USA.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 07, 2019, 03:57:21 PM
Is the lie spreadeagled on the sidewalk of shame OK?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 27, 2019, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Patriarchal white pig square or not, that ain't cool man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on August 27, 2019, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 27, 2019, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Patriarchal white pig square or not, that ain't cool man.

I assume your comment was directed at Wargtard  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on August 27, 2019, 05:18:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 27, 2019, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 27, 2019, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Patriarchal white pig square or not, that ain't cool man.

I assume your comment was directed at Wargtard  :)
No.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/12/07/four-died-shootout-with-police-after-ups-truck-was-hijacked-could-it-have-been-avoided/

QuoteFour died in a shootout with police after a UPS truck was hijacked. Could it have been avoided?

The violent scene unfolded on live television. Dozens of police officers, guns drawn, swarmed a hijacked UPS truck hemmed in by rush-hour traffic at a busy intersection. Inside the vehicle, two men suspected of armed robbery had taken the driver hostage. Outside, the officers took shots with innocent bystanders trapped in the cars in between.

It was, experts later said, a nightmare scenario.

The Thursday shootout in South Florida left four dead — the two hijackers, the 27-year-old abducted UPS driver and a 70-year-old man who happened to be idling at the light on his way home from work. It also left a mountain of unanswered questions.

As video of the violence circulated on national news and social media, some, including the UPS driver's family, criticized police tactics, saying it was irresponsible for officers to exchange fire on a crowded street. Others said the first responders had no choice but to confront a deadly threat.

In the weeks to come, investigators will have to address some thorny and complex issues concerning police use of force, researchers and law enforcement officials said. Who fired the shots that killed UPS driver Frank Ordonez and motorist Richard Cutshaw? How many bullets were fired and from where? Did the officers' actions put innocent lives in danger?

"Just about everything that could go wrong did go wrong," said David Klinger, a criminal justice professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis. The incident "was really, really bad."

But as chaotic and calamitous as the episode was, it was also "a perfect example" of why police are allowed to use deadly force against dangerous criminals, Klinger said. Authorities said Lamar Alexander and Ronnie Jerome Hill had left a trail of violence behind them that evening. Stopping them by any means — even with bullets — was "absolutely the right thing to do," Klinger said.

"In a situation like this, the police are reactive," Klinger added. "This is not a situation they want to be in. Their hand was forced."

The dramatic exchange of gunfire followed a high-speed chase through two counties that thwarted residents' commutes at rush hour. The men had tried to rob Regent Jewelers in Coral Gables, triggering a silent alarm about 4:15 p.m., police said.

They said a female employee of the store was injured as the robbers and the store owner shot at each other. The gunmen fled north in a truck, then commandeered a UPS truck while the driver was making a delivery, police said. Several police cars pursued the UPS truck, with the UPS driver trapped inside, until the vehicle was boxed in by traffic in Miramar and officers surrounded it.

When Heather Taylor, a homicide sergeant in St. Louis, watched the footage, she saw police who refused to retreat and who put innocent lives in jeopardy because of it. Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.

"We don't always have to be the warrior," said Taylor, who is also president of the Ethical Society of Police in St. Louis. "Sometimes we have to understand that retreating is okay. You don't always have to get the bad guy."


She acknowledged that the officers were in a difficult situation but said the video was "one of the most tragic" she has seen.

"Yes, the suspects are responsible, absolutely, but we are also responsible for every single round that went toward innocent bystanders," Taylor said. "Each one of them had the potential to kill someone."

On a GoFundMe page that had raised more than $100,000 by Friday evening, Roy Ordonez wrote that his brother, the UPS driver, had been gunned "down like a criminal by the Florida police." He asked people to share the fundraising page to "make people aware of trigger-happy police officers."

"They could have killed many more people, could have been one of your loved ones," Roy Ordonez wrote. "Please don't let my brother's death be for nothing. Police need to be held accountable."

Joe Merino, who told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel that he was Frank Ordonez's stepfather, said his stepson was "murdered."

"The police are here to serve and protect," Merino said, "but where was the protection for my son?"

Autopsies may determine who fired the shots that killed Ordonez and Cutshaw. Tania Rues, a spokeswoman for the Miramar Police Department, referred a question about the timeline for the autopsies to the Broward County medical examiner's office, which did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the shootout, Rues said.

"The armed suspects engaged law enforcement in open fire," FBI agent George Piro said on Thursday. He said the first shot was fired during the chase but declined to provide more details. Piro said it would be "completely inappropriate" to discuss whether the UPS driver or the bystander may have been hit by officers' gunfire.

David Harris, a policing expert and a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh, said the police officers' actions should be judged against their departments' policies about pursuits and deadly force.

Most professional police associations urge officers to engage in a chase only in very serious situations, to avoid unnecessarily endanger officers, criminals or bystanders, Harris said. He said most police forces, however, would allow officers to chase the vehicle of people connected to a violent felony, like the firing of shots during a jewelry store robbery.

"A situation like this with a hijacked truck, a kidnapping and maybe hundreds of civilians in danger is very unusual," Harris said. "And you won't find but a handful of police officers in the United States who've had an experience like this."

Geoff Alpert, a criminology professor at the University of South Carolina, said that other than having a SWAT truck with heavily armed tactical police officers, he did not know of alternative ways that police could have safely ended the pursuit. The gunmen had proved that they were willing to resort to violence to escape and could have endangered other people in the area, such as by hijacking other cars, Alpert said.

"This is why the police are trained to do what they do," he said.

Every shot that police fired has to be accounted for, Alpert added. He said investigators need to ask each officer on the scene, while their memories are fresh, why they shot and what their target was.

"Every one of them could be justified," Alpert said, "or there may be some that aren't."


Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 08, 2019, 05:11:35 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 27, 2019, 05:08:56 PM
I assume

Mistake.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 08, 2019, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM

Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:

What is the point of a question like that?

Do you really think those cops, literally while someone is shooting at them, are thinking "Gee, what is my standard procedure here in this totally routine situation that I have been in so many times before? Should I stand here in the open and let them blow me away, or should I duck behind whatever the fuck is around me right fucking now?"

There is almost certainly going to be plenty to learn about what should or should not be done in these kinds of moments. Trying to critique individual officers for their actions in the moment is almost certainly nearly useless. It may very well be the case that the officers should not have even engaged at all, and simply let them get away, but that should be judged against their standards and their SOP. What happened once the bullets started flying is always going to be mostly chaos.

And if the cops HAD let them simply get away, and they shot that UPS driver and left his body by the side of the road, the same couch warriors bitching about over aggressive cops hiding behind cars in a shoot out would say they were cowards for letting someone with a hostage simply escape, I am sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
I mean, it says right in the article dude:

Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.


That's a police sergeant talking, not exactly a couch warrior.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 08, 2019, 11:04:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 08, 2019, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM

Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:

What is the point of a question like that?

Do you really think those cops, literally while someone is shooting at them, are thinking "Gee, what is my standard procedure here in this totally routine situation that I have been in so many times before? Should I stand here in the open and let them blow me away, or should I duck behind whatever the fuck is around me right fucking now?"

There is almost certainly going to be plenty to learn about what should or should not be done in these kinds of moments. Trying to critique individual officers for their actions in the moment is almost certainly nearly useless. It may very well be the case that the officers should not have even engaged at all, and simply let them get away, but that should be judged against their standards and their SOP. What happened once the bullets started flying is always going to be mostly chaos.

And if the cops HAD let them simply get away, and they shot that UPS driver and left his body by the side of the road, the same couch warriors bitching about over aggressive cops hiding behind cars in a shoot out would say they were cowards for letting someone with a hostage simply escape, I am sure.


Do instances where a suspect makes a get-away become huge nationwide stories?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: dps on December 08, 2019, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
I mean, it says right in the article dude:

Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.


That's a police sergeant talking, not exactly a couch warrior.

How, exactly, were the officers to know if they would ever get a clearer shot?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 08, 2019, 01:18:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 08, 2019, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM

Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:

What is the point of a question like that?

.....

And if the cops HAD let them simply get away, and they shot that UPS driver and left his body by the side of the road, the same couch warriors bitching about over aggressive cops hiding behind cars in a shoot out would say they were cowards for letting someone with a hostage simply escape, I am sure.

This needs more CAPS, one word isn't enough for the full effect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on December 08, 2019, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 08, 2019, 11:04:59 AM

Do instances where a suspect makes a get-away become huge nationwide stories?

If they execute their hostages, sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 08, 2019, 09:13:39 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
I mean, it says right in the article dude:

Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.


That's a police sergeant talking, not exactly a couch warrior.

Thats what I said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:21:37 PM
 :lol: Ok then. Sure.

Carry on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 08, 2019, 10:22:59 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:21:37 PM
:lol: Ok then. Sure.

Carry on.

Wise man.  :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 10, 2019, 03:05:06 PM
Jersey City's turn today.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 10, 2019, 08:35:59 PM
Yip
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 10, 2019, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 10, 2019, 03:05:06 PM
Jersey City's turn today.

Sad, but it also has a couple of the hall marks of a foreign influenced terrorist attack, the Kosher shop/supermarket and customers killed there has echos of the Charlie Hebdo aftermath.


Then again it might just be a coincidence, and from initial reports gunmen firing hundreds of "high velocity rounds" could be just the result of normal access to legal/illegal firearms in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2019, 08:56:49 PM
Those gunshots are loud as fuck.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 10, 2019, 08:59:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2019, 08:56:49 PM
Those gunshots are loud as fuck.

Not there, so guessing you've seen it on live News TV?


I'll see if I catch what happened as I've not seen the news or tv today.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2019, 09:00:52 PM
Youtube clips of news.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 10, 2019, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 10, 2019, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 10, 2019, 03:05:06 PM
Jersey City's turn today.

Sad, but it also has a couple of the hall marks of a foreign influenced terrorist attack, the Kosher shop/supermarket and customers killed there has echos of the Charlie Hebdo aftermath.


Then again it might just be a coincidence, and from initial reports gunmen firing hundreds of "high velocity rounds" could be just the result of normal access to legal/illegal firearms in the US.
Jersey City is actually pretty unfriendly to guns.  No, I'm not saying that criminals are deterred by gun laws, but it makes it easier to show up on the radar when you do sport big guns.  I wouldn't be surprised if the dead cop accidentally stumbled upon something already planned.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on December 11, 2019, 04:46:05 AM
Sounds like the mayor agrees with you,  DG. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 11, 2019, 05:20:28 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 10, 2019, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 10, 2019, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 10, 2019, 03:05:06 PM
Jersey City's turn today.

Sad, but it also has a couple of the hall marks of a foreign influenced terrorist attack, the Kosher shop/supermarket and customers killed there has echos of the Charlie Hebdo aftermath.


Then again it might just be a coincidence, and from initial reports gunmen firing hundreds of "high velocity rounds" could be just the result of normal access to legal/illegal firearms in the US.
Jersey City is actually pretty unfriendly to guns.  No, I'm not saying that criminals are deterred by gun laws, but it makes it easier to show up on the radar when you do sport big guns.  I wouldn't be surprised if the dead cop accidentally stumbled upon something already planned.

Seems to be terrorism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50747374 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50747374)

As you say the first cops might well have stumbled into an unfolding plot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 12, 2019, 03:16:12 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/us/tennessee-deputy-daniel-wilkey.html

QuoteTennessee Sheriff's Deputy Indicted on 44 Charges, Including Rape and Stalking

Daniel Wilkey, who was charged on Tuesday with rape, extortion, stalking and assault, has previously been accused in lawsuits of false imprisonment, child molestation and forced baptism.

A sheriff's deputy in Tennessee was indicted on Tuesday on 44 criminal charges — 25 of them felonies — over actions alleged to have been taken in the course of his official duties, including rape, extortion, stalking and assault, according to the authorities.

The charges against the deputy, Daniel Wilkey, include six counts of sexual battery; two counts of rape; and nine counts each of extortion, stalking and assault, according to court documents. Sheriff Jim Hammond of Hamilton County said in a statement on Tuesday that the indictments were connected "to incidents he was involved in while on duty in an official capacity."

"In the days that follow, I want to reassure our community, each and every day the men and women of the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office are to perform their duties in a deliberate, honorable and professional manner," the sheriff said. "We are charged to protect this community and its citizens, and this is a responsibility I take very seriously."

Mr. Wilkey has also been the subject of multiple lawsuits while employed by the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office that accuse him of misconduct, including false imprisonment, child molestation and forcibly baptizing a woman during a traffic stop.

The department said that Mr. Wilkey was released on bail from Hamilton County Jail shortly after midnight on Wednesday, and that a hearing would be held on Dec. 30 to determine his employment status. A lawyer for Mr. Wilkey did not respond to a message seeking comment on Wednesday.

Before his employment in Hamilton County, Mr. Wilkey worked as a law enforcement officer in neighboring Rhea County, Tenn., where he was accused in a wrongful-death lawsuit of fatally shooting an unarmed man in the head in 2014 while the man was receiving treatment at an emergency room. He was not charged criminally in the man's death.

Two of the charges in Tuesday's indictment, for felony rape and misdemeanor assault, stem from a traffic stop in July during which Mr. Wilkey and another deputy, Bobby Brewer, performed a body cavity search on a handcuffed black man after pulling over his car.

Neal Pinkston, the Hamilton County district attorney general, released dashboard camera footage of the episode two days after it occurred, leading to outrage from African-American leaders, who described the search as a rape. The handcuffed man has not been publicly identified, and Mr. Brewer has not been charged with a crime.

Robin Flores, a lawyer for the handcuffed man, filed a lawsuit against the county, Mr. Wilkey and Mr. Brewer. He said in an interview that the long list of indictments against Mr. Wilkey was evidence of a "systemic" culture of abuse and cover-up in the county.

"It has been going on here for a long time," said Mr. Flores, who has filed lawsuits on behalf of several people who claim they were abused by Mr. Wilkey and other deputies. "There is a pattern and practice of misconduct by the sheriff's office and the county."

"What we allege over and over again is that this sheriff has repeatedly softballed or slow-walked misconduct in the ranks and lays out this message to the troops that they can do what they want," he added.

Several of the indictments filed on Tuesday relate to a different traffic stop, in February, that involved Shandle Riley, whom prosecutors say Mr. Wilkey stalked, assaulted, extorted and falsely imprisoned.

Ms. Riley, who is also a client of Mr. Flores's, described the events of that night in a lawsuit filed in September against Mr. Wilkey; a second deputy, Jacob Goforth; and the Hamilton County government.

In it, she accused Mr. Wilkey of illegally searching her car — during which he found a small amount of marijuana — and then offering not to arrest her if she would allow him to baptize her.

Ms. Riley said in the suit that she felt as if she had no choice but to agree to Mr. Wilkey's strange demand, so she went with him to a lake, where he stripped to his underwear and brought her into the frigid, waist-deep water.

Mr. Wilkey fully submerged her in the lake with his hands on her back and her breasts while Mr. Goforth stood on a nearby boat ramp to serve as a witness to her baptism, she said.

"Wilkey held plaintiff under water for several moments, then with his hands still positioned on her back and breasts, raised plaintiff from the cold water," Ms. Riley's lawsuit claims. "Plaintiff was shivering uncontrollably and felt horribly violated."



:wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on December 12, 2019, 03:35:29 PM
That's a story full of WTF.  :huh:

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 12, 2019, 03:39:42 PM
That should be a movie.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on December 12, 2019, 04:48:28 PM
He shot a guy in the head in hospital and not only got away with it but was hired somewhere else?!?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on December 12, 2019, 05:04:33 PM
Quote from: HVC on December 12, 2019, 04:48:28 PM
He shot a guy in the head in hospital and not only got away with it but was hired somewhere else?!?

Well, on the plus side, his marksmanship was pretty good.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 12, 2019, 05:13:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on December 12, 2019, 04:48:28 PM
He shot a guy in the head in hospital and not only got away with it but was hired somewhere else?!?

The guy who was killed was alleged to have taken another deputy's gun during a struggle in the ER.
https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/tenn-man-killed-by-deputy-during-struggle-for-gun-in-er-IzqPzab8aq1fmodM/ (https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/tenn-man-killed-by-deputy-during-struggle-for-gun-in-er-IzqPzab8aq1fmodM/)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on December 12, 2019, 05:17:11 PM
Well that's hardly unarmed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 12, 2019, 05:32:16 PM
Quote from: HVC on December 12, 2019, 05:17:11 PM
Well that's hardly unarmed.

That's probably why the lawsuit failed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on December 13, 2019, 04:32:11 AM
Quotefalse imprisonment, child molestation and forced baptism

Now that's a strange combination of charges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 13, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
There is a law on the books against "forced baptism"?

Is this a problem outside of weirdo cops such that there was a need for an actual law banning it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 13, 2019, 03:31:16 PM
Maybe originally intended to protect Jews?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on December 13, 2019, 03:36:34 PM
Some people try to baptize their kids before they are adults and can consent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 13, 2019, 03:36:34 PM
Some people try to baptize their kids before they are adults and can consent.

I pour water on my kids' heads all the time without consent :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on December 13, 2019, 03:40:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 13, 2019, 03:36:34 PM
Some people try to baptize their kids before they are adults and can consent.

I pour water on my kids' heads all the time without consent :(

can you pour some sugar on me
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 13, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 13, 2019, 03:36:34 PM
Some people try to baptize their kids before they are adults and can consent.

I pour water on my kids' heads all the time without consent :(
:o I hope you're at least not stripping them when doing that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
There is a law on the books against "forced baptism"?

Is this a problem outside of weirdo cops such that there was a need for an actual law banning it?

It immediately made me think of this scene from Boardwalk Empire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKe2le6CvKg

But yeah I am baffled by how that is the charge. I mean certainly what he did was a huge abuse of power, but I mean what is the difference between using his position to pressure people into being "baptized" or painting his house or any other similar action people could be coerced into by a police officer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:46:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 13, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
:o I hope you're at least not stripping them when doing that.

:ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on December 13, 2019, 04:22:36 PM
If only the black guy that was raped had grown up with positive role-models, all of this could have been avoided.  :(

:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 13, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
There is a law on the books against "forced baptism"?

Is this a problem outside of weirdo cops such that there was a need for an actual law banning it?

It immediately made me think of this scene from Boardwalk Empire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKe2le6CvKg

Such a bizarre character and arc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on December 13, 2019, 05:22:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
There is a law on the books against "forced baptism"?

Is this a problem outside of weirdo cops such that there was a need for an actual law banning it?

He wasn't charged with "forced baptism", he was sued for it.  So not a criminal law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 06:08:29 PM
Ah ok that makes sense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 13, 2019, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
There is a law on the books against "forced baptism"?

Is this a problem outside of weirdo cops such that there was a need for an actual law banning it?

It immediately made me think of this scene from Boardwalk Empire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKe2le6CvKg

But yeah I am baffled by how that is the charge. I mean certainly what he did was a huge abuse of power, but I mean what is the difference between using his position to pressure people into being "baptized" or painting his house or any other similar action people could be coerced into by a police officer.
A violation of the separation of church and state, no?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 13, 2019, 06:45:35 PM
There were scandals in the 19th century of forced baptism of Jews in Italy which were rare, but a big deal in the anti-Catholic press in the US (and certainly UK) at the time. I wonder if it was something from them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on December 13, 2019, 07:23:54 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 13, 2019, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 13, 2019, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
There is a law on the books against "forced baptism"?

Is this a problem outside of weirdo cops such that there was a need for an actual law banning it?

It immediately made me think of this scene from Boardwalk Empire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKe2le6CvKg

But yeah I am baffled by how that is the charge. I mean certainly what he did was a huge abuse of power, but I mean what is the difference between using his position to pressure people into being "baptized" or painting his house or any other similar action people could be coerced into by a police officer.
A violation of the separation of church and state, no?

See above...it wasn't a charge.

From the source:

QuoteDaniel Wilkey, who was charged on Tuesday with rape, extortion, stalking and assault, has previously been accused in lawsuits of false imprisonment, child molestation and forced baptism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on December 16, 2019, 10:14:08 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 13, 2019, 06:45:35 PM
There were scandals in the 19th century of forced baptism of Jews in Italy which were rare, but a big deal in the anti-Catholic press in the US (and certainly UK) at the time. I wonder if it was something from them.

It is a civil lawsuit and there is nothing in the legal code about forced baptisms. Thankfully. We have enough weird and stupid laws in this country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on May 06, 2020, 07:59:02 AM
The video has just been made public (just saw it flashing by on twitter this morning), if somebody wants to look it up, I don't have the stomach.

QuoteGeorgia to consider charges in killing of unarmed black jogger as video emerges
Prosecutors were reluctant to charge former police officer and son in shooting of 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery

A prosecutor in Georgia said on Tuesday he would ask a grand jury to decide if charges should be filed against a white former law enforcement officer and his son in the fatal shooting of an unarmed young black man as he ran through a small town.

The shooting of 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery outside Brunswick, Georgia, in February was captured on videotape and posted on social media on Tuesday, stirring outrage over the reluctance of prosecutors to file charges against Gregory McMichael and his son, Travis.

The video footage, which was taken by an unidentified witness in another car, shows Arbery jogging down a narrow two-lane road and around a white pickup truck stopped in the right lane, its driver's door open.

As Arbery crosses back in front of the truck a gunshot is fired. Arbery is then seen struggling with a man holding a long gun as a second man stands in the bed of the truck brandishing a revolver. Two more shots are heard before Arbery stumbles and falls face-down onto the asphalt.


The graphic footage has prompted an outcry and demands for justice; the activist Shaun King posted the video on Twitter, describing it as "one of the worst things I've seen in my entire life".

Tom Durden, the acting district attorney for a neighboring district, said in a letter posted on Facebook that he believed "the case should be presented to the grand jury of Glynn county for consideration of criminal charges against those involved in the death of Mr Arbery".

Durden, who was assigned to investigate the fatal shooting after prosecutors in Brunswick and a neighboring district recused themselves due to potential conflicts of interest, said he would present the case to the next available grand jury in Glynn county. That grand jury might not meet until mid-June or later because courts were under restrictions imposed by the coronavirus pandemic, he said.

According to a police report obtained by the New York Times, Gregory McMichael, a former police officer and district attorney's investigator, told investigators the incident began when he spotted Arbery from his front yard "hauling ass" down the street.

McMichael told police that, because he suspected Arbery in a string of recent neighborhood break-ins, he summoned his son and the two men gave chase in the truck, Gregory McMichael carrying a .357 Magnum revolver and Travis armed with a shotgun.

Gregory McMichael said Arbery began to "violently attack" his son and fought over the shotgun, prompting Travis to open fire. It is not clear from the police report or the videotape if Gregory McMichael also fired on Arbery.

According to a letter obtained by the Times, the prosecutor in Brunswick argued there was not probable cause to arrest the McMichaels because they were legally carrying firearms, had a right to pursue a burglary suspect and use deadly force to protect themselves.

In a statement to the New York Times, a lawyer for Arbery's family said the video clearly showed a criminal act. "This is murder," said S Lee Merritt. "The series of events captured in this video confirm what all the evidence indicated prior to its release."

Andrea Young, the executive director of the ACLU of Georgia, compared the killing to that of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teenager who was shot in 2012 by a neighborhood watch leader.

"The vigilante behavior that we saw in Brunswick is unacceptable in a civilized society. We call on the officials in Brunswick to enforce the rule of law so that it can be safe for citizens to walk the streets," said Young. "Ahmaud was killed three days before the anniversary of the 2012 killing of Trayvon Martin. Both incidents are a reminder that white supremacy has been a foundation for our country and leads repeatedly to the targeting and harming people of color, particularly African Americans."

It took me a while to find the megathread...didn't know the forum has warnings if you post to a very old thread.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on May 06, 2020, 10:40:13 AM
Not strictly speaking police violence, as the concerned patriots were apparently a former police officer and his son, who followed a man out running and I guess 'pulled him over" armed with a shotgun and a pistol. They felt like they were police officers. More will be revealed. Fox News will smear the shit out of the deceased "he smoked, he drank, he talked back!!!" Sam Harris will point out that white people also get killed by people who feel like they are police officers and on and on. Biden came out earlier calling for justice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 07, 2020, 06:37:03 AM
The video is heinous. Nothing less than a lynching.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 07, 2020, 07:20:53 AM
How is the legal situation if clowns like these are found to have escalated the situation needlessly to the point that they felt threatened and therefore used lethal force?

To use an extreme example, if I keep getting in someone's face, and they push back and become aggressive, and I think they're armed or reaching for a gun, I don't suppose I would be in my right to kill them? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 07, 2020, 07:26:50 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 07, 2020, 07:20:53 AM
How is the legal situation if clowns like these are found to have escalated the situation needlessly to the point that they felt threatened and therefore used lethal force?

To use an extreme example, if I keep getting in someone's face, and they push back and become aggressive, and I think they're armed or reaching for a gun, I don't suppose I would be in my right to kill them? :unsure:

You have to give more info. Are they black? Are you?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2020, 09:13:18 AM
Brain, those are really sharp questions. Have you ever practiced law in Georgia?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 07, 2020, 09:17:24 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2020, 09:13:18 AM
Brain, those are really sharp questions. Have you ever practiced law in Georgia?

No, but I feel strange urges at night.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 07, 2020, 11:09:31 AM
Here's one that's gone somewhat viral:

Lethbridge, Alberta police officers take down a girl dressed as a Stormtrooper on May 4th after receiving a complaint of a person carrying a weapon down the street:

https://globalnews.ca/video/6908239/woman-in-star-wars-stormtrooper-costume-arrested-by-lethbridge-police-on-may-4th
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 07, 2020, 11:23:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 07, 2020, 11:09:31 AM
Here's one that's gone somewhat viral:

Lethbridge, Alberta police officers take down a girl dressed as a Stormtrooper on May 4th after receiving a complaint of a person carrying a weapon down the street:

https://globalnews.ca/video/6908239/woman-in-star-wars-stormtrooper-costume-arrested-by-lethbridge-police-on-may-4th

Silly cops. Everyone knows Stormtroopers can't hit anyone!  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Legbiter on May 07, 2020, 11:32:46 AM
Seems excessive. I know the Disney films aren't any good but still. :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 07, 2020, 11:49:45 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 07, 2020, 11:09:31 AM
Here's one that's gone somewhat viral:

Lethbridge, Alberta police officers take down a girl dressed as a Stormtrooper on May 4th after receiving a complaint of a person carrying a weapon down the street:

https://globalnews.ca/video/6908239/woman-in-star-wars-stormtrooper-costume-arrested-by-lethbridge-police-on-may-4th

Silly cops. Stormtroopers can be black, check the latest movies.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 07, 2020, 11:59:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 07, 2020, 11:49:45 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 07, 2020, 11:09:31 AM
Here's one that's gone somewhat viral:

Lethbridge, Alberta police officers take down a girl dressed as a Stormtrooper on May 4th after receiving a complaint of a person carrying a weapon down the street:

https://globalnews.ca/video/6908239/woman-in-star-wars-stormtrooper-costume-arrested-by-lethbridge-police-on-may-4th

Silly cops. Stormtroopers can be black, check the latest movies.

Hey: this is Canada.  We don't go for that kind of overt racism thank you very much!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PRC on May 07, 2020, 02:11:03 PM
Fucking Lethbridge.  A few years ago a cop got in trouble there for running over a deer repeatedly in an attempt to euthanize it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2020, 04:26:46 AM
That father and son pair have been charged with murder.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2020, 06:04:50 AM
Pretty detailed analysis for the layman
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1258709358097174532

QuoteHow lawsuits against American cops accused of excessive force keep failing thanks to protection by the Supreme Court. Even when unarmed people are shot dead or are left permanently injured.

@Reuters
investigates how the high court protects cops who kill

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 22, 2020, 03:03:53 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 07, 2020, 11:09:31 AM
Here's one that's gone somewhat viral:

Lethbridge, Alberta police officers take down a girl dressed as a Stormtrooper on May 4th after receiving a complaint of a person carrying a weapon down the street:

https://globalnews.ca/video/6908239/woman-in-star-wars-stormtrooper-costume-arrested-by-lethbridge-police-on-may-4th

(https://beta.ctvnews.ca/content/dam/ctvnews/images/2020/5/7/1_4927139.jpg)


They've now installed a warning sign.

(https://i.redd.it/z5u64wnv99051.jpg)

The incident is also being investigated: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/lethbridge-police-storm-trooper-arrest-investigation-1.5561474
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 03:31:26 AM
I wouldn't walk around town with something that intentionally looks like a gun, but that's me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on May 22, 2020, 03:55:41 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2020, 03:31:26 AM
I wouldn't walk around town with something that intentionally looks like a gun, but that's me.

Unless you are a fat white guy in Kentucky.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 27, 2020, 12:59:36 AM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/minneapolis-police-george-floyd-fatal-arrest-officer-kneeling-neck/

QuoteVideo shows Minneapolis cop with knee on neck of motionless, moaning man who later died

A video taken by an onlooker Monday evening shows a Minneapolis police officer keeping his knee on the neck of a motionless, moaning man at the foot of a squad car. The man, who was later identified as George Floyd, later died.

Tuesday afternoon, Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo announced that four officers involved are now "former employees" with the department, CBS Minnesota reports. Mayor Jacob Frey tweeted, "Four responding MPD officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been terminated. This is the right call."

A police statement said officers were responding to a "forgery in progress." "Officers were advised that the suspect was sitting on top of a blue car and appeared to be under the influence," the statement said. "Two officers arrived and located the suspect, a male believed to be in his 40s, in his car. He was ordered to step from his car.

"After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance," according to the statement.

The man died soon after, the statement said, adding: "At no time were weapons of any type used by anyone involved in this incident.  ... Body worn cameras were on and activated during this incident."

Arradondo said at a press conference Tuesday that the FBI will lead the investigation into the incident due to the possible civil rights violation.

The man who died was identified as George Floyd by Ben Crump, a prominent civil rights and personal injury attorney who said he had been hired by Floyd's family.

"We all watched the horrific death of George Floyd on video as witnesses begged the police officer to take him into the police car and get off his neck," Crump said in a statement. "This abusive, excessive and inhumane use of force cost the life of a man who was being detained by the police for questioning about a non-violent charge." 

Two of the officers involved have been "relieved of duty status," Arradondo said. The officers are still receiving pay, but have no law enforcement duties.

The video, captured by Darnella Frazier, begins with the man, who is black, groaning and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" to the officer who has his knee on the man's neck. The officer is white.

"Please," the man pleads. "I can't breathe," and continues to moan. An officer keeps insisting he get in the car, while the man repeatedly says he can't.

"My stomach hurts. My neck hurts. Everything hurts. ... (I need) water or something. Please. Please. I can't breathe, officer. ... I cannot breathe. I cannot breathe." That was followed by more groaning.

A female bystander points out the subject's nose is bleeding.

In an ongoing commentary permeated by cursing, a male onlooker says: "That's bulls**t, Bro. You're stopping his breathing right there, Bro. Get him off the ground, Bro. You're being a bum right now."

The man says the officer is "enjoying that. He's a bum, Bro. You could have put him in the car by now. He's not resisting arrest or nothing. You're enjoying it. Look at you. Your body language — you bum. You know that's bogus right now."

The female onlooker repeatedly urges the officers to check the subject's pulse. "He's not responsive right now," a bystander says. "He's not moving." An ambulance then arrives and takes the man away.

"You just really killed that man, Bro," the male onlooker says to the officer.

Frazier, who took the video, wrote on Facebook: "They killed him right in front of cup foods over south on 38th and Chicago!! No type of sympathy 💔💔#POLICEBRUTALITY."

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey called the man's death "simply awful," and "wrong at every level" at the press conference Tuesday.

"For the better part of the night I've been trying to find the words to describe what happened and all I keep coming back to is that he should not have died," Frey said.

"What we saw was horrible, completely and utterly messed up," he said. "This man's life matters, he matters. He was someone's son, someone's family member, someone's friend. He was a human being and his life mattered."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 27, 2020, 01:30:07 AM
There were protests afterwards:

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/1590536610_15892941+2cg052720.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/1590536735_08-1011065550+09DEATH052720.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/police+protest+01.JPG?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

Some protestors headed to the precinct the cops supposedly worked from and started to smash windows with stones and trash squad cars. Which led to a "robust response" by police.

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/1590543450_15892941+2gas052720.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/1590542730_15892941+1gas052720.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/police+protest+04.JPG?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/police+protest+05.JPG?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/1590543331_08-1011065550+20DEATH052720.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)

(https://stmedia.stimg.co/police+protest+20.JPG?auto=compress&crop=faces&dpr=1&w=1446&fit=clip&h=544)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on May 27, 2020, 09:16:43 AM
Especially grim and horrifying.The cops were fired and are no doubt heroes on some parts of the internet already. Racism is over though, and this sort of thing also happens to white people apparently, but the media always misses it. The victim was doing something wrong and consequently deserved death. And on and on and on....

Perhaps these cops will be charged with a crime at some point?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 27, 2020, 09:20:33 AM
Quote from: fromtia on May 27, 2020, 09:16:43 AM
Racism is over though, and this sort of thing also happens to white people apparently, but the media always misses it.

I don't understand that argument. So long as the police also kill white people then they shouldn't be held accountable? Talk about a bizarre whataboutism. Pretty sure if a citizen ends up killed by the police an investigation needs to be made and disciplinary action taken if necessary. That is just respecting the civil rights of our people. What about the fifth amendment to the Constition?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 28, 2020, 01:12:53 PM
Apparently, rioting and looting in that city now.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/bringmethenews.com/.amp/minnesota-news/photos-rioting-turns-violent-deadly-numerous-businesses-burned-in-south-minneapolis
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 28, 2020, 01:17:41 PM
"That bigoted city"?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 01:19:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 28, 2020, 01:12:53 PM
Apparently, rioting and looting in that city now.

Well shit, that doesn't help anybody.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 01:22:31 PM
No Justice! No Peace!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 28, 2020, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 28, 2020, 01:12:53 PM
Apparently, rioting and looting in that city now.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/bringmethenews.com/.amp/minnesota-news/photos-rioting-turns-violent-deadly-numerous-businesses-burned-in-south-minneapolis

Well that doesn't sound like "Minnesota nice". :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 28, 2020, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 01:22:31 PM
No Justice! No Peace!

No local stores!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 01:34:06 PM
Intimidate law makers with assault weapons: Oh, well, we can't do anything.

Vandalize police car and write graffiti: deploy tear gas and rubber bullets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 01:36:26 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 01:34:06 PM
Intimidate law makers with assault weapons: Oh, well, we can't do anything.

Vandalize police car and write graffiti: deploy tear gas and rubber bullets.

Well one is against the law and the other isn't. Also: these are different states and different police departments.

That is not to say tear gas and rubber bullets were a great idea and an appropriate response.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 01:40:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 01:36:26 PMAlso: these are different states and different police departments.


I have no doubt it would have been the exact same response in most states.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 01:59:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 01:40:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 01:36:26 PMAlso: these are different states and different police departments.


I have no doubt it would have been the exact same response in most states.

I do. Bringing weapons into a government building is illegal in most states. You cannot even bring toy guns into federal buildings.

If you mean that the response would have been similarly over-reactive in the protest case well I cannot argue that. Probably right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 03:05:58 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 01:34:06 PM
Intimidate law makers with assault weapons: Oh, well, we can't do anything.

Vandalize police car and write graffiti: deploy tear gas and rubber bullets.

What is the appropriate response to burning down buildings?  And why did you leave that part out?

And of course we can do something about assault weapons open carried in state assemblies: we can change the laws.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 28, 2020, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 01:19:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 28, 2020, 01:12:53 PM
Apparently, rioting and looting in that city now.

Well shit, that doesn't help anybody.

Honestly, I'm amazed it's taken this long to get there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 04:26:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 03:05:58 PM
What is the appropriate response to burning down buildings?  And why did you leave that part out?

Because tear gas and rubber bullet came after grafitti and vandalizing police car, not after burning down buildings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 04:59:52 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 04:26:16 PM
Because tear gas and rubber bullet came after grafitti and vandalizing police car, not after burning down buildings.

OK.  What's the appropriate response to vandalizing police cars?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 05:03:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 04:59:52 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 04:26:16 PM
Because tear gas and rubber bullet came after grafitti and vandalizing police car, not after burning down buildings.

OK.  What's the appropriate response to vandalizing police cars?

Nothing. Send someone out to talk. Deescalate if you can.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 05:03:18 PM
Nothing. Send someone out to talk. Deescalate if you can.

Is that what you would do if someone were vandalizing your car?

BTW, what do you mean by vandalizing?  Keying the doors and letting the air out of the tires?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 05:20:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 05:12:10 PM
Is that what you would do if someone were vandalizing your car?

BTW, what do you mean by vandalizing?  Keying the doors and letting the air out of the tires?

I am not a police body given the legitimate use of force. My car is not a police car. What I would do is immaterial to this case. Police cars also do not hold such a special place in my heart that would warrant unleashing forceful repression of a demonstration. 

But I understand American police forces in general suck at deescalating any type of situation. Much more fun to beat up protesters.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 05:20:48 PM
I am not a police body given the legitimate use of force. My car is not a police car. What I would do is immaterial to this case. Police cars also do not hold such a special place in my heart that would warrant unleashing forceful repression of a demonstration. 

But I understand American police forces in general suck at deescalating any type of situation. Much more fun to beat up protesters.

I don't understand how public property should be given less protection than private.  Those police cars were bought with tax payer money and were presumably generating benefits for the residents of South Minneapolis.

What you would do seems very material to me.  The police are acting on our behalf.  If we prefer our property to not be destroyed, and would act to protect it, so should they.  If we're indifferent to the destruction of our property then we can instruct the police to act the same way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 28, 2020, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 27, 2020, 09:20:33 AM
Quote from: fromtia on May 27, 2020, 09:16:43 AM
Racism is over though, and this sort of thing also happens to white people apparently, but the media always misses it.

I don't understand that argument. So long as the police also kill white people then they shouldn't be held accountable? Talk about a bizarre whataboutism. Pretty sure if a citizen ends up killed by the police an investigation needs to be made and disciplinary action taken if necessary. That is just respecting the civil rights of our people. What about the fifth amendment to the Constition?

Who is claiming police shouldn't be accountable?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 05:20:48 PM
I am not a police body given the legitimate use of force. My car is not a police car. What I would do is immaterial to this case. Police cars also do not hold such a special place in my heart that would warrant unleashing forceful repression of a demonstration. 

But I understand American police forces in general suck at deescalating any type of situation. Much more fun to beat up protesters.

I don't understand how public property should be given less protection than private.  Those police cars were bought with tax payer money and were presumably generating benefits for the residents of South Minneapolis.

What you would do seems very material to me.  The police are acting on our behalf.  If we prefer our property to not be destroyed, and would act to protect it, so should they.  If we're indifferent to the destruction of our property then we can instruct the police to act the same way.

Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.

Then we should certainly disband them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 28, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
They were disbanded in the 80s, nyuk nyuk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.

Then we should certainly disband them.

But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.

Then we should certainly disband them.

But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?

Nothing. Send someone out to talk. Deescalate if you can.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 07:11:15 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 28, 2020, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 27, 2020, 09:20:33 AM
Quote from: fromtia on May 27, 2020, 09:16:43 AM
Racism is over though, and this sort of thing also happens to white people apparently, but the media always misses it.

I don't understand that argument. So long as the police also kill white people then they shouldn't be held accountable? Talk about a bizarre whataboutism. Pretty sure if a citizen ends up killed by the police an investigation needs to be made and disciplinary action taken if necessary. That is just respecting the civil rights of our people. What about the fifth amendment to the Constition?

Who is claiming police shouldn't be accountable?

I wouldn't think anybody but I am obviously very wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 07:32:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.

Then we should certainly disband them.

But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?

Nothing. Send someone out to talk. Deescalate if you can.

A swing and a miss.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2020, 07:38:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 07:32:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.

Then we should certainly disband them.

But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?

Nothing. Send someone out to talk. Deescalate if you can.

A swing and a miss.

But you tried, and that's what counts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 08:05:23 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?

Beats me.  I have no experience with unpoliced places.  Who do you think they would call?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 08:25:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 08:05:23 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?

Beats me.  I have no experience with unpoliced places.  Who do you think they would call?

Probably the Klan.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2020, 07:38:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 07:32:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2020, 06:31:57 PM
Because they are the police. The Police are not acting on your behalf. They are protecting eachother. They would not hesitate to let you die too.

Then we should certainly disband them.

But then who would wypipo call when they see black folks in places they feel they shouldn't be?

Nothing. Send someone out to talk. Deescalate if you can.

A swing and a miss.

But you tried, and that's what counts.

:console:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2020, 06:09:14 PMWhat you would do seems very material to me.  The police are acting on our behalf.  If we prefer our property to not be destroyed, and would act to protect it, so should they.  If we're indifferent to the destruction of our property then we can instruct the police to act the same way.

Our whole system of policing is predicated on the stark distinction of what any private citizen would do in response to an insult or injury, and how our society, and therefore, our police, should answer. I would very much like to punch in the face someone who insulted me, but I wouldn't expect a policeman to punch that person for me. And I wouldn't want a policeman to be authorized to punch in the face a citizen who insults him. Restraint is a necessary part of granting the privilege to some individuals the right to discharge a deadly weapon on a fellow citizen.

Furthermore, this is not a sort of either/or proposition, that should we let a police car vandalized in tense circumstances we are suddenly giving the ok for all police cars -- and indeed, all cars - to be vandalized for all times. This is the recognition that this is a tense moment.

If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 28, 2020, 11:08:13 PM
Now the police station is on fire.  I think there might be some room for improvement here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 28, 2020, 11:14:02 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/fyibY3m.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 11:26:19 PM
I mean there is a procedure for these things people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2020, 11:27:48 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I totally agree.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 12:04:21 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do!  That's not any one person's thought pattern, but that is the mob mentality.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 12:30:06 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
Our whole system of policing is predicated on the stark distinction of what any private citizen would do in response to an insult or injury, and how our society, and therefore, our police, should answer. I would very much like to punch in the face someone who insulted me, but I wouldn't expect a policeman to punch that person for me. And I wouldn't want a policeman to be authorized to punch in the face a citizen who insults him. Restraint is a necessary part of granting the privilege to some individuals the right to discharge a deadly weapon on a fellow citizen.

Furthermore, this is not a sort of either/or proposition, that should we let a police car vandalized in tense circumstances we are suddenly giving the ok for all police cars -- and indeed, all cars - to be vandalized for all times. This is the recognition that this is a tense moment.

If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think an insult fits in the same categories as threats to property and life.  And for what it's worth, I think cops generally show remarkable restraint when they are being insulted.  But burning a cop car is not calliing someone a bad name.

I do agree that the fact the instigating incident was killing by cop means the response should be a lighter touch than usual.  Just not to the extent of standing by with arms crossed while property is destroyed.

I wish I could see the evidence for your assertion that letting riots burn themselves out leads to less rioting in the near term.  I just don't see the proof for that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 12:30:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 12:04:21 AMI don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do! 

I thought it was clear that the policy of deescalation would be my preferred police response to an angry crowd. The crowd is not trying to deescalate the situation by burning a car - it's an angry response to an intolerable situation. The escalation is responding to a burning car by shooting up tear gas and rubber bullet.

There are ways to de-escalate even such super tense situations - contacting local leaders, asking for political presence, calling for mediation. Or, quite frankly, letting the anger subside. After all, isn't it *exactly what police forces do* whenever sports fan riot after a victory/defeat?

Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:12:02 AM
Donald Trump finds soothing words to heal the wound and calm things down.

QuoteDonald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
1h
I can't stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:25:19 AM
White dude casually smashing windows of a car shop in Minneapolis, then walking away:

https://twitter.com/keithboykin/status/1266132570980454400

There's some reports that the violence on the first day was instigated by white folk who supposedly looked "out of place" in the otherwise diverse protest, but apparently there's no video footage so it's a rumor at best.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 01:32:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 12:30:06 AMI don't think an insult fits in the same categories as threats to property and life.

I was illustrating the principle. Switch my example for: "if someone killed my child" - I wouldn't expect the police to act as I would like to act.

Note, also, that here, property damage is what the crowd engaged in. Threats to life is what the police did, and what they offered.

QuoteI wish I could see the evidence for your assertion that letting riots burn themselves out leads to less rioting in the near term.  I just don't see the proof for that.

Riots =/= Property Damage. I think you are confusing the moment of riot (i.e., looting, burning places) with the initial moment of anger. Admittedly, the first is harder to de-escalate than the second, but the fact is, they all run their course pretty quickly. (i.e., they usually stop at the end of the night). That they often pick up again the following night (usually in the US) is usually the result of the same good old escalation recipes being deployed.

Damaging cars is not a riot. It's being used to express anger precisely because it's not physical violence against a human being. It also has a clear end. There is a limit to what you can do to a car, and it becomes eventually boring, the message is spent. It's a pattern that has been observed empirically. It also accords with my own experience.

Crowds with a purpose are not breaking everything left and right. They show up to a meaningful place. They shout. They want to be heard. Eventually, people disperse because, once again, routine sets in, and boredom too.

Empirically, riots usually emerge later, after there has been escalation - an escalation that is almost always the preferred response by police, because a) they feel they are not in control, and this fuels their restlessness, much more so than a clear assessment of actual risk and b) they feel property damages concern "valid" citizens, while protesters are usually seen in a much less flattering light.

There is a considerable body of work re: social movement scripts, and perception of crowds by police. (J. M. Jasper, R. Collins, C. Tilly, etc.)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:37:34 AM
Meanwhile, in Louisville, over a different case of being shot while being at home.

https://eu.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/metro-government/2020/05/28/breonna-taylor-shooting-what-know-louisville-protest/5280762002/

QuoteBreonna Taylor protest in downtown Louisville draws hundreds. Here's what we know
Tessa Duvall and Darcy Costello Louisville Courier Journal

Published 2:18 AM EDT May 29, 2020

Louisville, Ky. — At least seven people were shot as hundreds of protesters in downtown Louisville gathered to demand justice for Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old Louisville ER tech who was shot and killed by Louisville Metro Police in March.

Some shots were heard on scene just before 11:30 p.m., and a police spokeswoman confirmed the injuries at 1 a.m. in a statement. At least one of the victims is in critical condition
.

"There have been some arrests, but at this time we are not able to tell you how many as the situation is ongoing," the statement from spokeswoman Alicia Smiley said. "Information on those arrests will be available tomorrow through court records of the arrests."

Police officers did not fire their guns, Smiley said.

Chants of "no justice, no peace" echoed through the streets as night fell and the hundreds who gathered traveled down Jefferson and Main streets. What started as a peaceful protest in the evening escalated as the night drew on, with the crowd being teargassed and glass storefronts shattered. As heavy rains moved into the area in the early morning hours, much of the crowd dispersed.

The protests in Louisville unfurled as other cities saw similar demonstrations over police killings of black Americans, including in Phoenix, Denver and Minneapolis, where a man named George Floyd died after an officer pressed his knee into Floyd's neck. Floyd's death was captured on camera, igniting a reaction across the nation.

As the situation in downtown Louisville escalated, Taylor's family took to social media to plead for peace.

"We are not going to stop until we get justice," Juniyah Palmer, Taylor's younger sister, said in a video. "But we should stop tonight before people get hurt."

Jessie Halladay, a spokeswoman for LMPD, briefly addressed the media via video chat, saying, "this is not what we want for our city."

"What we are seeing tonight in this community is the obvious frustration and tension between police and residents," Halladay said. "What started out as a peaceful protest earlier this evening is now escalating into property damage, more aggressive action and we've just heard reports of shots fired in the crowd.

"We have a lot to work through in this community as a police department and as residents, together, but this is not the way."

Mayor Greg Fischer first commented on the protests just before midnight, sharing a post from Taylor's family, which called for peace.

"Understandably, emotions are high," he said. "As Breonna's mother says, let's be peaceful as we work toward truth and justice."

Several streets are closed to car traffic, including the Second Street Bridge. LMPD, which has said it is monitoring the protest, has asked the public to avoid the area around Second Street due to the "large crowd."

Halladay said police have used "great restraint throughout the evening" as protesters blocked traffic.

But, as the protest entered its fourth or fifth hour, the situation escalated. Some in the crowd tried to flip an what appeared to be an ambulance or prison transport vehicle. There were reports of tear gas being used, though Halladay was not able to confirm that during her apperance.

"Our goal all evening has been to try to allow a peaceful demonstration," Halladay said. "I think we were doing that quite successfully. The crowd has moved around downtown in several ways, we have not engaged."

Palmer, Taylor's younger sister, wrote a statement on Facebook pleading for peace as protests escalated downtown.

Minute by minute: What happened the night police fatally shot Breonna Taylor

"We are so grateful for everyone giving Bre a voice tonight, for saying her name, for demanding truth, for demanding justice and for demanding accountability," Palmer wrote. "Please keep demanding this. But please keep it peaceful. Do not succumb to the levels that we see out of the police. Speak. Protest. But do not resort to violence. We demand change. We demand reform. But we do not need for our community to get hurt. We need for our community to get justice."

Here's what we know:

- An estimated 500 to 600 protesters have gathered in the streets of downtown Louisville for several hours.
- The gathering began as early as 6 or 7 p.m. and stretched past midnight.
- Taylor's death is a popular rallying cry for those gathered, with cries of "Say her name!" and "Breonna Taylor."
- Crowds moved from outside City Hall on Sixth Street to in front of the KFC Yum Center, where more police officers began to engage with the crowd.
- Protesters largely remained peaceful for much of the night, though some have thrown rocks or kicked police cars, and a statue was damaged early on.
- Officers appear to be wearing body armor and face shields and carrying batons. It is unknown how many officers were called in to the protest.
- Read more: 'It is not a riot. It is a revolt': Councilwoman responds to protest

Follow along from our reporters at the scene, Bailey Loosemore, Sarah Ladd and Cameron Teague Robinson, on Twitter and below:




Breonna Taylor's death:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-woman-shot-killed-after-kentucky-police-entered-her-home-n1205651

QuoteA woman was shot and killed in her Louisville, Kentucky, home by police executing a "botched" search warrant who forced their way in, surprising the woman and her boyfriend who thought the officers were burglars, her family says in a lawsuit.

The lawsuit — filed by the family of the woman, Breonna Taylor, an EMT worker — says she and her boyfriend thought they were being burglarized and he fired at the officers in self-defense. The lawsuit accuses the three officers of "blindly firing" more than 20 shots into the apartment.

After the March 13 incident, the Louisville Metro Police Department said the officers had knocked on the door several times and "announced their presence as police who were there with a search warrant." After forcing their way in, they "were immediately met by gunfire," Lt. Ted Eidem said at a news conference.

Taylor's death gained national attention this week after the family hired attorney Ben Crump, who is also representing the family of Ahmaud Arbery, the black man in Georgia who was killed on Feb. 23 after being pursued and shot by two white men. The two men are charged with murder and aggravated assault.

Taylor, 26, was shot eight times by police. Kenneth Walker, 27, was arrested and charged with assault and attempted murder on a police officer. An attorney for Walker could not immediately be reached.

Crump called Taylor's death a "senseless killing."

"We stand with the family of this young woman in demanding answers from the Louisville Police Department," he said in a statement Monday on Twitter.

The attorney called out the police department for not providing "any answers regarding the facts and circumstances of how this tragedy occurred."

"Breonna Taylor was sleeping while black in the sanctity of our own home," Crump said at a Wednesday press conference, adding, "we cannot continue to allow them to unnecessarily and justifiably kill our black women and escape any accountability."

Records show that the police investigation was centered around a "trap house" more than 10 miles from Taylor's apartment, and that a judge had approved a "no-knock" search warrant, meaning officers did not have to identify themselves, according to The Courier-Journal.

The lawsuit states that Taylor and her boyfriend, Walker, were asleep in their bedroom when police in plainclothes and unmarked vehicles arrived at the house looking for a suspect who lived in a different part of the city and was already in police custody.

The three officers entered Taylor's home "without knocking and without announcing themselves as police officers," the suit states
.

The lawsuit says Taylor and Walker woke up and thought criminals were breaking in. Walker called 911 and police said he opened fire and shot an officer.


The cops had a no-knock warrant (which, in the US, with gun rights and self defense laws being what they are seems risky for the police, but ok), but say they knocked; Kenneth Walker says they didn't know. Difficult to prove, I suppose.

If these cops were out to apprehend a certain individual, how come they weren't notified that the guy was already in custody? (besides, what led them to this apartment, when it seems so far out of the way?)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 02:28:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:12:02 AM
Donald Trump finds soothing words to heal the wound and calm things down.

QuoteDonald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
1h
I can't stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!


Uh oh.  :ph34r:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZKxy-FU0AYP8jC?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 02:36:06 AM
Meanwhile in Columbus, Ohio:

https://www.cleveland.com/crime/2020/05/protesters-gather-in-columbus-over-death-of-george-floyd.html

QuoteOhio Statehouse damaged during protests in Columbus over death of George Floyd

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Hundreds of people were protesting Thursday night in downtown Columbus, angered by the death of George Floyd after a Minneapolis police officer kneeled on Floyd's neck during an arrest on May 25.

The Columbus Dispatch says about 300 protesters blocked the intersection of Broad and High streets. There was a heavy police presence downtown, including a helicopter hovering overhead, and officers were warning the demonstrators to clear the intersection, the Dispatch reports.

The protests started peacefully, but escalated late Thursday night, according to reports. WCMH Channel 4 reporter Eric Halperin reports protesters began breaking windows at the Statehouse downtown and some had gone inside the building. Police officers moved in to guard the Statehouse, Halperin reports.

Bus stops also were damaged, and trash cans and other receptacles were tipped over.

Some plastic bottles and other small objects were thrown at police officers earlier in the evening. During the demonstration, protesters chanted "Black lives matter" and "Say his name" in reference to Floyd, according to reports. They also chanted "I can't breathe," a reference to the 2014 death of Eric Garner in New York.

WCMH Channel 4 reports that police used a chemical spray to push the crowd back at about 10:20 p.m., causing the crowd to partially disperse. However, there was still a large crowd on the street as of 11:15 p.m., according to video from WBNS Channel 10.

Demonstrations have been taking place across the country after video showed the arrest of Floyd in Minneapolis. In California, hundreds of people protesting Floyd's death blocked a Los Angeles freeway and shattered windows of California Highway Patrol cruisers, the Associated Press reports. Memphis police blocked a main thoroughfare after a racially mixed group of protesters gathered outside a police station.

In the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, protests have turned violent, with buildings burned and some stores being looted. NBC News reports a police precinct building was set on fire late Thursday night during the third straight night of violent protests. St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter has requested help from the National Guard, CNN reports.

The video of the arrest showed Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, handcuffed and pinned to the ground by a white police officer who had his knee on the back of Floyd's neck. Floyd can be heard in videos of arrest complaining that he can't breath. He later died at a hospital.

Four police officers connected with the arrest have been fired.

Halperin reported tensions in Columbus began escalating around 11:15 p.m., showing video of a plastic bottle being thrown at the feet of a horse ridden by a police officer, startling the horse.

Columbus Mayor Andrew Ginther used Twitter to request that protests remain peaceful.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 29, 2020, 03:03:31 AM
They would get more done of they were armed when they attacked the statehouse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 03:20:53 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 12:30:35 AM
Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 03:54:09 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 02:28:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:12:02 AM
Donald Trump finds soothing words to heal the wound and calm things down.

QuoteDonald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
1h
I can't stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!


Uh oh.  :ph34r:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZKxy-FU0AYP8jC?format=jpg&name=small)

Oh wow.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 04:07:44 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 03:20:53 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 12:30:35 AM
Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?

Not many. Only many that you see on the news.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 04:09:22 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 03:20:53 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 12:30:35 AM
Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?

Because you are both right and wrong. Almost as if events involving thousands directly and millions indirectly had very complex underlying motivations, issues, and consequences.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on May 29, 2020, 04:15:09 AM
I feel that something else has to be pointed out in the George Floyd case, and it's the original cause of action for the police. I just read why the police was called on for and I can't believe that the agents' actions ended up being what they were.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 05:42:21 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpZZc02S/cnn.jpg)

Video here:

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protest-updates-05-28-20/h_4ed08403663fa4ed3518221d0f2a1552

The crew was reporting on street closures. The reporter is calmly asking the police where they would like the team to move, and that they'd go wherever they like while they sweep the area. Somehow that led to the crew being arrested. The studio crew says the crew stood where they were instructed to be previously.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 06:00:38 AM
And we argued that the USA wasn't a failed state.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 07:32:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 06:00:38 AM
And we argued that the USA wasn't a failed state.

So what is France ?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 07:35:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 07:32:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 06:00:38 AM
And we argued that the USA wasn't a failed state.

So what is France ?

France is always a borderline Police state. Did something happen in France that I missed?  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 07:54:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 07:32:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 29, 2020, 06:00:38 AM
And we argued that the USA wasn't a failed state.

So what is France ?

To be fair France have a few checkboxes pending that the US has already ticked, in particular the one on "armed militias intimidating local legislatures" and "President cheering violence on publicly".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 08:04:16 AM
The CNN crew has been released. State Police say they were freed as soon as their press credentials were established. Never mind that the reporter was holding out his press badge to the arresting officer the whole time. The reporter, Omar Jimenez, says he asked the trooper why he was being arrested. "Don't know man, just following orders."

A nearby white CNN reporter says he ran into no such issues dealing with police and national guard who politely asked him to move when they needed him out of the way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Just protecting lives and public property:
https://twitter.com/stribrooks/status/1266186985041022976?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Cops arresting news crews for no obvious reason while they are recording seems a new low to me. I don't remember that ever happening before in the US. Seems more like something you would expect to see in China.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2020, 09:22:42 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 03:20:53 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 12:30:35 AM
Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?

How many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?  As a percentage of all protests?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2020, 09:31:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Cops arresting news crews for no obvious reason while they are recording seems a new low to me. I don't remember that ever happening before in the US. Seems more like something you would expect to see in China.

It's not common but it definitely is not unprecedented; there are usually at least a few such incidents every year: https://pressfreedomtracker.us/arrest-criminal-charge/

Keep in mind that when it comes to law enforcement, the US is at least 50 different countries, and arguably more given strong local control over police forces.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2020, 10:22:11 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Cops arresting news crews for no obvious reason while they are recording seems a new low to me. I don't remember that ever happening before in the US. Seems more like something you would expect to see in China.

Don't presume malevolence when something can be explained by incompetence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2020, 10:22:11 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Cops arresting news crews for no obvious reason while they are recording seems a new low to me. I don't remember that ever happening before in the US. Seems more like something you would expect to see in China.

Don't presume malevolence when something can be explained by incompetence.

Well go ahead then. Explain it using incompetence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 12:04:21 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do!  That's not any one person's thought pattern, but that is the mob mentality.

Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 12:04:21 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do!  That's not any one person's thought pattern, but that is the mob mentality.

Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Well I mean we have also been rioting for 50+ years as well. What will get us somewhere is not clear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 12:04:21 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do!  That's not any one person's thought pattern, but that is the mob mentality.

Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Well I mean we have also been rioting for 50+ years as well. What will get us somewhere is not clear.

Attrition?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2020, 10:42:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2020, 10:22:11 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Cops arresting news crews for no obvious reason while they are recording seems a new low to me. I don't remember that ever happening before in the US. Seems more like something you would expect to see in China.

Don't presume malevolence when something can be explained by incompetence.

Well go ahead then. Explain it using incompetence.

Misinterpreting the situation. Misinterpreting his orders. Misinterpreting the laws. Faulty communication. Mistaken perception of threat.

That doesn't even take into account that the news story might be missing crucial details.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 10:42:38 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.

I don't even know what to say.  Didn't your mom ever teach you two wrongs don't make a right?

Plus this is exactly what Trump wants.  He's got to be gleeful that he gets to stand up for "law and order" (plus anything to distract from the pandemic).

The riots themselves then distract from the murder of George Floyd.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:47:44 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2020, 10:42:14 AM
Misinterpreting the situation. Misinterpreting his orders. Misinterpreting the laws. Faulty communication. Mistaken perception of threat.

That doesn't even take into account that the news story might be missing crucial details.

I don't see how any of those adequately explain how arresting a guy with a camera crew and a press pass works at all. Especially since they were released because they were found to be press members. How? That's impossible. I mean unless these cops were just flown in from a different planet none of those make any sense for a human being who has spent any time in this country.

The only explanation that would make sense would be your last point, that the story is reported incorrectly or is misleading something but that is not the same as incompetence by the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on May 29, 2020, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.
If it's insured, then I guess no one really pays for the damage, right?  And just in case you are one of those people who think crimes are okay as long as insurance company pays, business do have to pay deductibles, and they may not be insured against all the damages such as business interruption.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Wow. Just wow.  I don't think I will ever be able to read another post of yours without remembering that you are the one that's okay with people destroying innocent peoples' livelihoods because you think an injustice occurred.  That's very disturbing. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:50:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 12:04:21 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:40 PM
If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do!  That's not any one person's thought pattern, but that is the mob mentality.

Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Well I mean we have also been rioting for 50+ years as well. What will get us somewhere is not clear.

"We" have? For 50+ years?

Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken the black community this long to lose their minds over their people being killed. I mean, white folk took big ass guns to the courthouse in Michigan because they were told to wear masks. Imagine if they were killed over $20.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:58:33 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
Yes, it is. Because being polite and taking a knee hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

This guy was killed for possibly passing a fake $20 bill. His life was worth less than $20.

These people want to destroy these insured businesses? Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Wow. Just wow.  I don't think I will ever be able to read another post of yours without remembering that you are the one that's okay with people destroying innocent peoples' livelihoods because you think an injustice occurred.  That's very disturbing.

This whole situation is disturbing. Everything about this is disturbing. The fact that black people can be arrested because a white woman is annoyed with them is distubring. The fact that black people are killed in their homes by white people, and white people justify it. The fact that black people are treated as less than every single day of their lives is disturbing.

And to date, just calling it out has gotten them nowhere. People on this forum argued that Colin Koepernick as just a poser and was in the wrong.

You think differently of me for thinking that maybe a few stores being burned might finally change this? Oh well. I stopped caring about that a long time ago. I applaud these people for standing up and fighting in a way that gets attention, because it's been a long time coming. Frankly, I'm amazed at their patience with white America.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 10:50:11 AM
"We" have? For 50+ years?

Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken the black community this long to lose their minds over their people being killed. I mean, white folk took big ass guns to the courthouse in Michigan because they were told to wear masks. Imagine if they were killed over $20.

Ok? What does any of that have to do with what I said? This has been a big deal for decades. Numerous incidents like this provoking civil unrest has already happened. One would think that would lead to cities and police forces  being really fucking careful and pro-active and ready to deal with them...but nope. I don't know what will get people's attention or action.

Well maybe that is unfair, maybe there are police departments and governments who are doing those things we just don't hear about it much. I would like to think that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 11:01:20 AM
Fanatics can always rationalize violence.  I just wasn't aware that we had one of those kinds of fanatics here on languish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 11:02:15 AM
I just know that crying foul over people fighting for a right to live - not even in peace but to LIVE - is bullshit.

They have every right to fight, and fight hard, to be seen, heard, and to live. This has gone on long enough.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 11:05:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 11:01:20 AM
Fanatics can always rationalize violence.  I just wasn't aware that we had one of those kinds of fanatics here on languish.

You got me, grumbler. I'm a fanatic. For treating people with respect, for treating people equally based on who they are, not what they are. For not killing people over $20. For not shooting a man in front of his child for telling a police officer that he has a legal gun in his possession. For being tired of seeing black American treated as less than. For believing in equality and fairness.

Guilty. As. Charged.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 11:12:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 11:01:20 AM
Fanatics can always rationalize violence.  I just wasn't aware that we had one of those kinds of fanatics here on languish.

It's a bizarre thing to say. We all rationalize violence - sometimes, it's violence by cops, by armies, by revolutionaries we deem fighting for a good cause. By people claiming to act in self defense. We place it along a spectrum of more or less legitimate, more or less deplorable. Somehow, it's always the violence committed by those we do not deem worthy of legitimate motivation that is always deemed irrational.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 11:13:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on May 29, 2020, 11:02:15 AM
I just know that crying foul over people fighting for a right to live - not even in peace but to LIVE - is bullshit.

They have every right to fight, and fight hard, to be seen, heard, and to live. This has gone on long enough.

I am just baffled that they aren't being seen or heard or getting any action even when these kinds of extreme measures are taken.

Edit: Well ok I lied I am not baffled at all. Just depressed about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
I'm actually with meri on this. In recent weeks we've had a black jogger shot by vigilante wannabes, a black EMT shot when her boyfriend opened fire on intruders into their home (turned out they were cops at the wrong address), and a black guy was killed over a fake $20 bill.

Protesting hasn't done anything in the past, kneeling during the national anthem brought a major backlash, and honestly, I don't see what the community can do to make themselves heard. Going the political route, getting involved in local politics, or elected to state and federal legislative bodies is a slow process that's important but is difficult to find the patience for when these cases occur several times a year with broad media coverage and who knows how many that are barely a blip in the national news circus.

I'm sure there's many good cops out there who are appalled by their colleagues' behavior, and many police districts that are working honestly to make sure those cases don't happen on their watch, but it just takes a few incidents to drag everything down again.

Having a president that appears to encourage some of the worst elements doesn't exactly help, and neither does the whole pandemic/economic crisis situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 11:38:34 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
Protesting hasn't done anything in the past, kneeling during the national anthem brought a major backlash, and honestly, I don't see what the community can do to make themselves heard.

I agree. But, as I said, it isn't like civil unrest has had much success on this issue either. For whatever reason society only seems to react to their actions but not to the point. Except to portray them as wanting to kill cops and that the poor cops need to be defended. Blue Lives Matter. Leftwing people just want to demonize cops and shit.

And again the fact is that this is an issue that affects everybody in our country. The police sometimes brutalize people from all the communities (and obviously they do it to black and latinos and low income communities more) and often little official action is taken, but somehow there is so little solidarity. I just...I don't get it. It is so frustrating.

The majority of police officers do a good job and one would think they would be eager to get rid of these bad apples but instead they close ranks. But DGuller has talked a bit about that mentality.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 11:52:59 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
I'm actually with meri on this. In recent weeks we've had a black jogger shot by vigilante wannabes, a black EMT shot when her boyfriend opened fire on intruders into their home (turned out they were cops at the wrong address), and a black guy was killed over a fake $20 bill.

Protesting hasn't done anything in the past, kneeling during the national anthem brought a major backlash, and honestly, I don't see what the community can do to make themselves heard. Going the political route, getting involved in local politics, or elected to state and federal legislative bodies is a slow process that's important but is difficult to find the patience for when these cases occur several times a year with broad media coverage and who knows how many that are barely a blip in the national news circus.

I'm sure there's many good cops out there who are appalled by their colleagues' behavior, and many police districts that are working honestly to make sure those cases don't happen on their watch, but it just takes a few incidents to drag everything down again.

Having a president that appears to encourage some of the worst elements doesn't exactly help, and neither does the whole pandemic/economic crisis situation.

Burning down the livelihoods of innocent people hasn't done anything, either.  Meri isn't the first fanatic and won't be the last.  MLK Jr accomplished more with non-violence than the KKK did with violence.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 12:07:35 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 11:52:59 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 11:29:37 AM
I'm actually with meri on this. In recent weeks we've had a black jogger shot by vigilante wannabes, a black EMT shot when her boyfriend opened fire on intruders into their home (turned out they were cops at the wrong address), and a black guy was killed over a fake $20 bill.

Protesting hasn't done anything in the past, kneeling during the national anthem brought a major backlash, and honestly, I don't see what the community can do to make themselves heard. Going the political route, getting involved in local politics, or elected to state and federal legislative bodies is a slow process that's important but is difficult to find the patience for when these cases occur several times a year with broad media coverage and who knows how many that are barely a blip in the national news circus.

I'm sure there's many good cops out there who are appalled by their colleagues' behavior, and many police districts that are working honestly to make sure those cases don't happen on their watch, but it just takes a few incidents to drag everything down again.

Having a president that appears to encourage some of the worst elements doesn't exactly help, and neither does the whole pandemic/economic crisis situation.

Burning down the livelihoods of innocent people hasn't done anything, either.  Meri isn't the first fanatic and won't be the last.  MLK Jr accomplished more with non-violence than the KKK did with violence.



He also said this: "If his repressed emotions are not released in nonviolent ways, they will seek expression through violence; this is not a threat but a fact of history."

Which while I agree he wouldn't agree with the violence, surely he'd understand that many feel as though they don't have ways to express those emotions in nonviolent ways.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 12:22:48 PM
Barack:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZMofxYXYAELmWd?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on May 29, 2020, 12:24:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 10:42:38 AM
Didn't your mom ever teach you two wrongs don't make a right?

Two wrongs often do make a right. An act that is wrong by itself is often considered right in the context of stopping an act that is even more wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 12:27:47 PM
And the former police officer has been arrested.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 12:34:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 12:27:47 PM
Barack:

Damn. It is hard to believe that is the way the President used to respond to things instead of ragey tweets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on May 29, 2020, 01:02:02 PM
What happened to George Floyd was really horrifying, a grotesque injustice, certainly a terrible crime.Rioting and destroying stores and so on is also a terrible thing to do and while I understand peoples frustration, rage, anger it cannot be condoned. It's easy enough to figure this out. It seems really easy to figure out that what was done to George Floyd was really really wrong and that it's further evidence that there's a strong case for police reform and criminal justice reform in the United States.

Conservative neckbeards: can you condemn George Floyds treatment as quickly and energetically as you condemn rioting and looting or is it too hard until you have had more time to ruminate?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2020, 01:03:13 PM
Are there any conservative neckbeards here to respond, or are you just addressing the empty chair?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on May 29, 2020, 01:03:26 PM
I can and I do.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2020, 01:03:48 PM
You're not supposed to self-identify as a conservative neckbeard!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on May 29, 2020, 01:05:40 PM
It's my role here :whattyagonnado:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 01:06:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 29, 2020, 01:05:40 PM
It's my role here :whattyagonnado:

And I just want to express my appreciation of you continuing to do so after all this time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 01:09:42 PM
Quote from: fromtia on May 29, 2020, 01:02:02 PM
What happened to George Floyd was really horrifying, a grotesque injustice, certainly a terrible crime.Rioting and destroying stores and so on is also a terrible thing to do and while I understand peoples frustration, rage, anger it cannot be condoned. It's easy enough to figure this out. It seems really easy to figure out that what was done to George Floyd was really really wrong and that it's further evidence that there's a strong case for police reform and criminal justice reform in the United States.

Conservative neckbeards: can you condemn George Floyds treatment as quickly and energetically as you condemn rioting and looting or is it too hard until you have had more time to ruminate?

I'm a conservative (and a Conservative too - I just re-upped my membership), don't know about neckbeard, and absolutely I condemn Floyd's killing.

I often have some sympathy for police in shooting cases, where an officer is making a split-second decision.  But that's so obviously not the case here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2020, 01:17:55 PM
I don't know, I'd say it's still a split-second decision, just one that he continued to make each split-second for at least 420 seconds.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 29, 2020, 01:24:02 PM
And as ever with stuff like this, arresting the journalist etc, I always think - if they're willing to do this when they know cameras are on, what are they like when they're off.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:41:24 PM
Ahmaud Arbery, 3 years ago:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/19/us/2017-ahmaud-arbery-tasing-incident/index.html

QuotePolice attempted to use Taser on Ahmaud Arbery during a 2017 incident

(CNN)Police in Glynn County, Georgia, attempted to use a Taser on Ahmaud Arbery during an incident in 2017, according to a police report and police body camera video obtained by The Guardian.

The events captured on the body camera do not appear to line up entirely with what the first responding officer wrote in his report.

According to a police report from that incident, an officer was patrolling Townsend Park on November 7, 2017, when he noticed a vehicle parked in an area "known for drugs and other criminal activity."

Attorneys for the family confirm it is Arbery -- who was shot and killed during a confrontation while jogging in February -- in the 2017 video.

What happened in 2017

In the body camera video, the officer checks Arbery to see if he has any weapons on him.

Arbery repeatedly demands to know why he is being questioned and begins to argue with the officer, who asks to search his vehicle.

"He raised his voice and approached me," the officer wrote. "I observed veins popping from his chest which made me feel he was becoming enraged and may turn physically violent toward me."

Though Arbery is agitated, he complies with most of the officer's demands. However, he tells the policeman not to touch him and not to search his car and repeatedly challenges the reasons given for his questioning, the video shows.

Another officer arrives a short time later, and the officer already on the scene fails to disclose to his colleague that he's already checked Arbery for weapons, the video shows.

After Arbery again declines to let the officers search his car, he heads toward the driver door and the officer who just arrived tells him, "Don't reach in it, buddy," and draws his Taser. Arbery backs at least three steps away from the car, the video shows, and his hands drift toward his pants pockets.

The officers instruct Arbery to take his hands out of his pockets, which he does immediately, holding them out wide in plain view. Still, one of the officers then deploys his Taser, which does not work. He curses and orders Arbery to the ground, the video shows. Arbery complies again, and only then does the original officer inform his colleague that he has already checked Arbery for weapons.

The police incident report suggests that Arbery posed a danger to the officers.

The original officer wrote in his report that after Arbery was instructed to remove his hands from his pockets, "Arbery did not take his hands out of his vehicle; therefore, (the other officer) attempted to deploy his Taser to protect himself and I from the possibility of death or serious bodily harm."


You see, these kind of police interactions are completely alien to me. In 15 years of living in Vienna, I regularly see police in the streets, or on a train, and I've never had any interaction with them.

Not so my Indian colleague (he could almost pass for garbon's brother based on looks). He gets IDed or questioned two or three times each year. In one memorable instance three squad cars stopped around him, and even though he had all his papers on him, they didn't believe that he was a university student at the time. They took him in for questioning for a few hours until they'd confirmed his story with fellow students and two professors. At airports he's regularly tagged for "random checks" and once almost missed his flight back from Greece where he was vacationing with friends (he was held 45 minutes for questioning, though during that time he was left sitting alone for 30 minutes, and any time he asked if he could help in any way was told to STFU).

He's surprisingly well spirited about it, because I would be seriously pissed at this point. It is what it is, he says. (That said, he's very progressive/leftist, and considers going back to India not an option, esp. not with Modi in charge.)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 29, 2020, 01:45:40 PM
I know someone who is black and worked in the British embassy in Vienna. He had to go in and work on a holiday or weekend at some point. Despite having a pass and his passport the police guarding the embassy didn't believe him and arrested him. He had to have the British ambassador come down to the station to pick him up and open the embassy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
Really? The cops used to give me shit when I was younger but now that I am an older guy they only occasionally scream at me. It is kind of funny how much that changed when I stopped being a threatening teenager/young adult.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 29, 2020, 01:56:25 PM
This rare footage of a visit to Vienna PD might be relevant here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaVtCN3rX4M
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:56:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
Really? The cops used to give me shit when I was younger but now that I am an older guy they only occasionally scream at me. It is kind of funny how much that changed when I stopped being a threatening teenager/young adult.

I literally never had an interaction with the police outside of border crossings and such. And in years of air travel I was once tagged for a random check for hints of explosives on my fingers which lasted all of 10 seconds.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2020, 01:58:32 PM
What was on your fingers? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 29, 2020, 01:56:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
Really? The cops used to give me shit when I was younger but now that I am an older guy they only occasionally scream at me. It is kind of funny how much that changed when I stopped being a threatening teenager/young adult.

I literally never had an interaction with the police outside of border crossings and such. And in years of air travel I was once tagged for a random check for hints of explosives on my fingers which lasted all of 10 seconds.

See I figured a metal head looking guy like you would be on their radar as potential trouble maker. I guess that just raises less eyebrows in Europe than Texas.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 29, 2020, 02:05:09 PM
Yeah I'm like Syt. I can't think of any interactions with police outside of border crossings - and there I am frisked an unusual amount of times (I should probably stop asking) and have had my luggage searched a few times too. No idea why.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2020, 09:31:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Cops arresting news crews for no obvious reason while they are recording seems a new low to me. I don't remember that ever happening before in the US. Seems more like something you would expect to see in China.

It's not common but it definitely is not unprecedented; there are usually at least a few such incidents every year: https://pressfreedomtracker.us/arrest-criminal-charge/

Keep in mind that when it comes to law enforcement, the US is at least 50 different countries, and arguably more given strong local control over police forces.

I know journalists have been arrested at protests before. The reality unusual factor here is that they were arrested during a live broadcast, which showed for all to see that the arrests had no reasonable basis. That may well have happened before, but I don't remember it happening any time recently.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 29, 2020, 01:56:25 PM
This rare footage of a visit to Vienna PD might be relevant here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaVtCN3rX4M

Vienna police has a bad record when it comes to POC. Famously, they took one African (married to an Austrian) who was to be deported to a warehouse where they almost beat him to death and ran over him with a car. The involved policemen were sentenced to a few months probation. They were only fired years later. The victim was to receive 800k in compensation, but the payments were stopped by court order after 110k, with the state claiming that the physical and psychological harm isn't as bad as he claimed. The incident was in 2006, and he's still fighting in courts. The policemen tried to reopen the case to be found innocent, but a court denied them. They have yet to apologize for their actions.

In another case, police pulled a black man from a subway train, manhandled him and threw him to the ground ... then realized he was not a drug dealer, but a teacher from the US. There's more stuff like this.

Tbf, they're also quite rough with leftists. At a climate protest last year they cleared a road from protesters. One was positioned so his head was under a squad bus, and one of the cops revved the engine and moved the bus a few centimeters,  pretending to drive over his head. Another protester was arrested and kicked in the kidneys repeatedly. A cop can be heard shouting "In the kidneys!" A judge found the action to be illegal and, based on video evidence, said that one could have the impression that the policeman was politically prejudiced in his actions against the protester.

And there was the case of an animal protection group that had eye catching protests and walked a very fine line with regards to the legality of their actions that was investigated as "organized crime" (which is normally reserved for mafie-like structures), with nightly raids by anti-terror units. To their credits, the courts threw out the case against them.

I guess the upside is that death by police is rather rare in Austria.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on May 29, 2020, 02:17:07 PM
The police murdered George Floyd, and I hope at least a manslaughter conviction is coming. It would be better to keep the focus on police brutality however, rather than make this a race issue. The constant race baiting by the media is in large part responsible for these riots, and it's not going to solve anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 02:21:12 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 29, 2020, 02:17:07 PM
The police murdered George Floyd, and I hope at least a manslaughter conviction is coming. It would be better to keep the focus on police brutality however, rather than make this a race issue.

Well I mostly agree, that the focus needs to be on holding the police accountable.

But it is not really the media's fault racebailting. This stuff was not really big in the media until the black community made it a big deal on social media and in independent media. The race issue is real, not some fake story the media cooked up a short time ago. If anything the media was very late to the game.

But the problem of the cops mostly being held unaccountable for things like this is vital even if the race issue wasn't an issue and I think we should be able to get most people on board with that...or at least I hoped that would be the case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
The problem with violent rioting is four-fold.

First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

Second, allied to the first, while violent rioting definitely gets public attention, people tend to see what they want to see in it. Those already convinced police violence is a problem see this as the inevitable result: no justice equals no peace, something that may (or may not) be regrettable, but which is in either case inevitable. Others will have their stereotypes of the affected communities confirmed: what is necessary, in their view, is harsher measures to repress the violent rioters. What you tend to get is more division, when what is needed is unity of political purpose to clean up the corruption in policing. This is why people like Trump love this situation ...

Third, the victims of the rioting tend to be third parties, not the police. In the current case, a number of businesses and, oddly, an affordable housing unit.

Fourth, the ultimate victims of violent rioting tend to be the same population as is impacted by corrupt policing. Businesses burnt out by rioting may not come back.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 12:07:35 PM
He also said this: "If his repressed emotions are not released in nonviolent ways, they will seek expression through violence; this is not a threat but a fact of history."

Which while I agree he wouldn't agree with the violence, surely he'd understand that many feel as though they don't have ways to express those emotions in nonviolent ways.

I'd argue that MLK believed that hos approach WAS providing the means of expression through nonviolent ways.  His observation was that the alternative to his methods was violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 29, 2020, 02:31:31 PM
Maybe we just need braver police.  You know, police that don't fear for their lives the moment they see a black guy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
The problem with violent rioting is four-fold.

First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

Second, allied to the first, while violent rioting definitely gets public attention, people tend to see what they want to see in it. Those already convinced police violence is a problem see this as the inevitable result: no justice equals no peace, something that may (or may not) be regrettable, but which is in either case inevitable. Others will have their stereotypes of the affected communities confirmed: what is necessary, in their view, is harsher measures to repress the violent rioters. What you tend to get is more division, when what is needed is unity of political purpose to clean up the corruption in policing. This is why people like Trump love this situation ...

Third, the victims of the rioting tend to be third parties, not the police. In the current case, a number of businesses and, oddly, an affordable housing unit.

Fourth, the ultimate victims of violent rioting tend to be the same population as is impacted by corrupt policing. Businesses burnt out by rioting may not come back.

I agree, but would also argue that there is a clear difference between busting up police cars (as symbols of the forces these communities see as oppressive) and destroying the homes or businesses of third parties, insured or not.  I agree with Oex that the police response to attacks on police cars is better when it contributes to de-escalation rather than escalation, but don't think that the police have the same ability to accept some damage when it is being suffered by the innocent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 02:37:54 PM
I think that the fact that black cops are as likely to commit violence against black suspects as white cops are tells us that the problem is policing (selection, attitudes, training, policies), not racism per se.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 02:52:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 02:37:54 PM
I think that the fact that black cops are as likely to commit violence against black suspects as white cops are tells us that the problem is policing (selection, attitudes, training, policies), not racism per se.

Does it though? I mean if the problems with policing are falling more on black suspects then...

Anyway it is obviously not an either/or situation. Solve the policing problems as that is more concrete and easier to change.

And I think we can all agree that rioting and civil unrest are bad things, regardless of how justified you think they are, that we should take steps to prevent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

Violence in protests take a lot of different forms. It may be more useful to distinguish between these various forms. And it may be also useful to remember that violence in protest is also done by police forces.

It is very rare that the violence that is committed during protest is aimed at changing things. It's not. It can be "claims-making", i.e., asserting one's power or rage or anger at a situation. It can be defending one's perceived turf, i.e., police charging, or protesters kicking out plainclothes officers. It can be defending a comrade (either police or fellow protester). It can be asserting control. And it can also be "red mist", i.e., once interpersonal violence is unleashed, it takes a while to calm down. It can also be explicitly political: i.e., people throwing rocks at windows of banks, or multinational corporations, or flipping a police car. But these are actually rare.

QuoteSecond, allied to the first, while violent rioting definitely gets public attention, people tend to see what they want to see in it.

This may indeed be true... as far as seeing it through the media. There was, if I remember correctly, a good academic article a few years back, "The smoke gets in our eyes", which documents how journalists usually share the concern of police over "loss of control", which influences the way these stories are reported.

That being said, my own opinion evolved dramatically - not because I continuously saw what I wanted to see, but because I saw first hand what I did not want to see. I come from a family that has had a lot of people involved in law enforcement and the military, and, like most white people, had a generally pretty positive opinion of police. Witnessing first hand the unjust application of police violence and brutality - and the sheer disproportion of means, between the sort of violence protesters could conceivably use, and that which the police indeed unleashed, has profoundly transformed my perspective on this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

Violence in protests take a lot of different forms. It may be more useful to distinguish between these various forms. And it may be also useful to remember that violence in protest is also done by police forces.

It is very rare that the violence that is committed during protest is aimed at changing things. It's not. It can be "claims-making", i.e., asserting one's power or rage or anger at a situation. It can be defending one's perceived turf, i.e., police charging, or protesters kicking out plainclothes officers. It can be defending a comrade (either police or fellow protester). It can be asserting control. And it can also be "red mist", i.e., once interpersonal violence is unleashed, it takes a while to calm down. It can also be explicitly political: i.e., people throwing rocks at windows of banks, or multinational corporations, or flipping a police car. But these are actually rare.

This may well all be true, but none of it addresses the point - which is whether violent rioting leads to constructive change.

Violent rioting could lead to constructive change even though the violence comes in whole or in part from the police, and whether or not making constructive change was the intention of the rioters ... or it could not.

The point here is to evaluate the costs and benefits of violent rioting. The costs are easier to quantify, but an argument could be made those costs are worthwhile because they lead to a good outcome (as in, 'sure those riots are destructive and some innocent people suffered, but the riots in Boston helped lead to the birth of the United States, so violent rioting isn't always bad').

Quote
QuoteSecond, allied to the first, while violent rioting definitely gets public attention, people tend to see what they want to see in it.

This may indeed be true... as far as seeing it through the media. There was, if I remember correctly, a good academic article a few years back, "The smoke gets in our eyes", which documents how journalists usually share the concern of police over "loss of control", which influences the way these stories are reported.

That being said, my own opinion evolved dramatically - not because I continuously saw what I wanted to see, but because I saw first hand what I did not want to see. I come from a family that has had a lot of people involved in law enforcement and the military, and, like most white people, had a generally pretty positive opinion of police. Witnessing first hand the unjust application of police violence and brutality - and the sheer disproportion of means, between the sort of violence protesters could conceivably use, and that which the police indeed unleashed, has profoundly transformed my perspective on this.

Certainly some people will have their views changed, I would not deny that. I would have hoped that the numerous examples of police excess in the US would lead to a groundswell of political will to create change, but so far it has not, and I'm not convinced yet another riot will tip any balance in that respect - I mean, we have similar examples in the past, and things did not change for the better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 03:39:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
This may well all be true, but none of it addresses the point - which is whether violent rioting leads to constructive change.

I think it does.

If violence is understood as a byproduct of a situation, rather than a clearly established policy by either the police or demonstrators, it dispenses us from ritualized hand wringing. If, for protestors, it's not *about* constructive change, then the matter is much more about how to deal with it. It seems to me much more productive than gravely pronouncing that rioting is bad and counterproductive. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 29, 2020, 03:53:58 PM
I remain unconvinced that violence against innocents is the way to a good society.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 04:06:21 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 03:39:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
This may well all be true, but none of it addresses the point - which is whether violent rioting leads to constructive change.

I think it does.

If violence is understood as a byproduct of a situation, rather than a clearly established policy by either the police or demonstrators, it dispenses us from ritualized hand wringing. If, for protestors, it's not *about* constructive change, then the matter is much more about how to deal with it. It seems to me much more productive than gravely pronouncing that rioting is bad and counterproductive.

That depends on the context.

Certainly, in the context of public statements by public officials, what you say has merit.

I am not, however, a public official. Your point of view  lacks merit in the particular context of arguments made here on Languish, where some people are in fact arguing that violent rioting may be justified, and so whether it is or not  is a live topic of discussion.

Though as always, I appreciate the "gravely pronouncing" and "ritualized  handwringing". Classic Languish damning descriptions.  😄
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 29, 2020, 04:08:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZNnJmcUEAAiyHW?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 29, 2020, 04:18:04 PM
What does "Potential intoxicants" mean in this situation?  Are they saying he was under the influence or is this just a hypothetical?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 02:52:31 PM
Does it though? I mean if the problems with policing are falling more on black suspects then...

Well, I suppose you could argue that black cops are just self-loathing racists, but I don't see any evidence of that. 

QuoteAnyway it is obviously not an either/or situation. Solve the policing problems as that is more concrete and easier to change.

And I think we can all agree that rioting and civil unrest are bad things, regardless of how justified you think they are, that we should take steps to prevent.

You are correct that it isn't an either-or situation.  Racism clearly is, and historically has been, the cause of a lot of police violence towards minorities.  But the increasing militarization of police, both physically and mentally, is, I think, responsible for even more of the violence.  Seedy talks about this all the time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on May 29, 2020, 04:33:06 PM
Potential drugs are often administered through hypothetical needles
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 04:38:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 29, 2020, 04:18:04 PM
What does "Potential intoxicants" mean in this situation?  Are they saying he was under the influence or is this just a hypothetical?

I think what they mean is that if he was healthier he would had endured strangulation longer and might have survived as a result, ergo its his fault.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 12:07:35 PM
He also said this: "If his repressed emotions are not released in nonviolent ways, they will seek expression through violence; this is not a threat but a fact of history."

Which while I agree he wouldn't agree with the violence, surely he'd understand that many feel as though they don't have ways to express those emotions in nonviolent ways.

I'd argue that MLK believed that hos approach WAS providing the means of expression through nonviolent ways.  His observation was that the alternative to his methods was violence.

Sure but his approach isn't exactly viable now as in their aren't really great opportunities for effective non-violent means.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
Sure but his approach isn't exactly viable now as in their aren't really great opportunities for effective non-violent means.

I have no idea why you believe it is impossible to effectively use non-violent means.  Care to expand on that?  I use non-violent means all the time, and they seem effective.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 04:06:21 PM
Though as always, I appreciate the "gravely pronouncing" and "ritualized  handwringing". Classic Languish damning descriptions.  😄

I was not targeting you there. I am sorry if that was unclear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 04:50:13 PM
If rioting is a viable way to end racism and discrimination, how would that goal be achieved by it? Keep burning down cities controlled by racist cops/administrations until they change their ways?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 05:02:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 04:06:21 PMI am not, however, a public official. Your point of view  lacks merit in the particular context of arguments made here on Languish, where some people are in fact arguing that violent rioting may be justified, and so whether it is or not  is a live topic of discussion.

Again, I disagree. Our stance re: violence, as citizens, has an impact insofar as we react to it, and as it structures our political identity. What I am suggesting is that we ought to change our own stance towards violent rioting, precisely because we should not expect it to be narrowly instrumental in magically enacting the sort of structural change we claim we want.

In short, I am asking why we assume some violence is justified (i.e., cops firing rubber bullets) and some isn't (i.e., rioters burning a police car). Or why some scale of violence is justified (i.e., tear gas is okay, rubber bullet isn't / burning a police car is okay, burning a convenience store isn't). I suggest that the way to get at the issue here is not the unhelpful distinction violence/non-violence that always gets conveniently abstracted. It's to envision political demonstration as its own thing, with its own dynamic. This makes the eruption of violence "readable", beyond political objective or police malfeasance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 05:02:53 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 04:50:13 PM
If rioting is a viable way to end racism and discrimination,

As I said, I don't think anyone is claiming that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 29, 2020, 05:08:42 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 04:50:13 PM
If rioting is a viable way to end racism and discrimination, how would that goal be achieved by it? Keep burning down cities controlled by racist cops/administrations until they change their ways?

Might as well try it at this point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 05:16:33 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2020, 02:52:31 PM
Does it though? I mean if the problems with policing are falling more on black suspects then...

Well, I suppose you could argue that black cops are just self-loathing racists, but I don't see any evidence of that. 

QuoteAnyway it is obviously not an either/or situation. Solve the policing problems as that is more concrete and easier to change.

And I think we can all agree that rioting and civil unrest are bad things, regardless of how justified you think they are, that we should take steps to prevent.

You are correct that it isn't an either-or situation.  Racism clearly is, and historically has been, the cause of a lot of police violence towards minorities.  But the increasing militarization of police, both physically and mentally, is, I think, responsible for even more of the violence.  Seedy talks about this all the time.

I would tend to agree - I see the problem as generally a variety of corruption, as in the police in some places tend to look out for their own interests and, with increased militarization, to see themselves as an occupying power and not as public servants.

Corruption not necessarily in terms of being on the take (although as oversight loosens there is more of that as well) but a more pervasive corruption of purpose.

The us-or-them mentality enables racists of course, as the police will shrug off any attempt to discipline one of their own even if they are violent racists; plus of course given a long history of racism, police violence and resistance to same will have a racial emphasis - but some cops are black and there are white members of the public who are affected by police violence and the cover-up or non-punishment of police abuses.

Seems to me what is necessary is strong, effective and incorruptible oversight of the police. I assume a big part of the problem is that there are so many different police jurisdictions which makes that difficult to achieve.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 05:17:08 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 29, 2020, 05:08:42 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 29, 2020, 04:50:13 PM
If rioting is a viable way to end racism and discrimination, how would that goal be achieved by it? Keep burning down cities controlled by racist cops/administrations until they change their ways?

Might as well try it at this point.

Why though? It has been tried a gazillion times during history, it causes suffering, is a perfect excuse for the racists to escalate, and so on.

Unless they are fighting to establish an independent government of their own I see no end game with it. I understand the frustration but just because they are rioting against awful people should not make us support the rioting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 05:02:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 04:06:21 PMI am not, however, a public official. Your point of view  lacks merit in the particular context of arguments made here on Languish, where some people are in fact arguing that violent rioting may be justified, and so whether it is or not  is a live topic of discussion.

Again, I disagree. Our stance re: violence, as citizens, has an impact insofar as we react to it, and as it structures our political identity. What I am suggesting is that we ought to change our own stance towards violent rioting, precisely because we should not expect it to be narrowly instrumental in magically enacting the sort of structural change we claim we want.

In short, I am asking why we assume some violence is justified (i.e., cops firing rubber bullets) and some isn't (i.e., rioters burning a police car). Or why some scale of violence is justified (i.e., tear gas is okay, rubber bullet isn't / burning a police car is okay, burning a convenience store isn't). I suggest that the way to get at the issue here is not the unhelpful distinction violence/non-violence that always gets conveniently abstracted. It's to envision political demonstration as its own thing, with its own dynamic. This makes the eruption of violence "readable", beyond political objective or police malfeasance.

"Readable" to what end? There doesn't seem to be any particular mystery as to why people are rioting here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 05:19:21 PM
"Readable" to what end? There doesn't seem to be any particular mystery as to why people are rioting here.

To the end of going past the sort of response we all seem to be trapped in.

This discussion seems to be a good example. Indeed, there may not be any mystery as to why people are *angry*. But why is that anger taking the form of a riot? Why are police answering the way they are?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 05:33:10 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 29, 2020, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 05:19:21 PM
"Readable" to what end? There doesn't seem to be any particular mystery as to why people are rioting here.

To the end of going past the sort of response we all seem to be trapped in.

This discussion seems to be a good example. Indeed, there may not be any mystery as to why people are *angry*. But why is that anger taking the form of a riot? Why are police answering the way they are?

Well, I would assume the people who are rioting are expressing their anger with dumb violence because the political process appears to have failed to change the corruption in policing that has resulted in a man being killed for no justifiable reason by the cops, so they feel ordinary responses will be ignored; while crooks among the population take the opportunity to loot at will.

The police are responding in the way they are because the corrupt militarization of the police leads them to act more like an occupying force than public servants.

I don't see this as a huge breakthrough in understanding. As I pointed out in the post above yours, the only real answer is effective and incorruptible oversight of the police. If that existed, public frustration would not build to the point of explosion because there would be more faith in the system.

It is how to get to that point that is the hard part. Unfortunately, violent rioting plays into the hands of those who like the system as it is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 29, 2020, 06:00:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
Sure but his approach isn't exactly viable now as in their aren't really great opportunities for effective non-violent means.

I have no idea why you believe it is impossible to effectively use non-violent means.  Care to expand on that?  I use non-violent means all the time, and they seem effective.

Oh you have used nonviolent means to effectively drive change on police brutality directed at people of color?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on May 29, 2020, 06:13:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 06:00:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
Sure but his approach isn't exactly viable now as in their aren't really great opportunities for effective non-violent means.

I have no idea why you believe it is impossible to effectively use non-violent means.  Care to expand on that?  I use non-violent means all the time, and they seem effective.

Oh you have used nonviolent means to effectively drive change on police brutality directed at people of color?

I have.  :goodboy:

No wait - it was only regular police brutality, not against POC. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 07:06:37 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 06:00:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
Sure but his approach isn't exactly viable now as in their aren't really great opportunities for effective non-violent means.

I have no idea why you believe it is impossible to effectively use non-violent means.  Care to expand on that?  I use non-violent means all the time, and they seem effective.

Oh you have used nonviolent means to effectively drive change on police brutality directed at people of color?

Ah, so your cryptic comment was referring just to trying to effectively drive change on police brutality directed at people of color.  Well, I'd say that violent methods have failed, and there are far more nonviolent methods that haven't even been attempted than violent ones.  You may believe that the principles of non-violence advocated by MLK are no longer viable, but I am unconvinced by a mere assertion.

Where, exactly, do you expect the violent methods you espouse to lead?  tactical defeat of the police?  Inflicting so many injustices on innocent people that the public cries "uncle' and surrenders to.... whatever you think the alternative to modern society is?

The practitioners of nonviolence had an endgame.  What's the endgame for you supporters of violence?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2020, 07:50:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2020, 09:22:42 AM
How many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?  As a percentage of all protests?

Very low as a percentage of all protests, quite a bit higher when race is involved.

My question was in response to Ucks, who seemed to be suggesting protesters just want to shout and will dissipate after a day.  In many cases that is not true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 01:26:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 29, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
Sure but his approach isn't exactly viable now as in their aren't really great opportunities for effective non-violent means.

I have no idea why you believe it is impossible to effectively use non-violent means.  Care to expand on that?  I use non-violent means all the time, and they seem effective.

There have been many nonviolent protests in the US over the last twenty years, some of them massive and they haven't gone anywhere.

MLK's protests succeeded because the elites feared that violent social unrest would follow if it did not.

The socioeconomic elites in America clearly don't fear anything these days. They robbed the nation blind after the 2008 collapse and suffered no consequences and are in the midst of doing the same again right now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 01:46:35 AM
If they robbed the nation blind after 08, how is it the federal government made money on TARP?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 02:00:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 01:46:35 AM
If they robbed the nation blind after 08, how is it the federal government made money on TARP?
Talking about the people. Millions of people lost their homes due to predatory lending practices.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 02:01:41 AM
Anyway, the White House is under siege by rioters and the Secret Service is out there in riot gear trying to prevent the White House from being overrun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 02:08:08 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 02:00:21 AM
Talking about the people. Millions of people lost their homes due to predatory lending practices.

So the socioeconomic elite robbed The People blind by lending them money and not getting paid back.  Got it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 02:11:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 02:08:08 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 02:00:21 AM
Talking about the people. Millions of people lost their homes due to predatory lending practices.

So the socioeconomic elite robbed The People blind by lending them money and not getting paid back.  Got it.
The predatory was key there. They broke tons of laws there.

You think those lost homes just disappeared into the ether? The banks ended up with them. Whether they end up being paid back or getting the property via default the banks always end up ahead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 02:18:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 02:11:55 AM
The predatory was key there. They broke tons of laws there.

You think those lost homes just disappeared into the ether? The banks ended up with them. Whether they end up being paid back or getting the property via default the banks always end up ahead.

So the banks made tone of money predatory lending and repossessing houses, so none of them got taken over for pennies like Washington Mutual and Bear Stearns, and none of them needed bailout money from the government.  Got it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 02:20:41 AM
No, none of them needed a bailout. They took it though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 02:20:41 AM
No, none of them needed a bailout. They took it though.

Why did they take it if they didn't need it?

And why does Lehman Brothers no longer exist, or Bear Stearns, or Washington Mutual?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 30, 2020, 02:25:40 AM
I blame Camper for the demise of WaMu  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on May 30, 2020, 02:45:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

The Stonewall Riots were massive and got us LGBT rights.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 03:10:18 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 07:06:37 PM
Ah, so your cryptic comment was referring just to trying to effectively drive change on police brutality directed at people of color.

First off, the attitude? Don't need it and won't have it. After all, it shouldn't be a surprise that I might be talking about police brutality towards people of color in a thread called: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD and the forum is discussing the reactions to the police murdering a black person.

Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2020, 07:06:37 PMWell, I'd say that violent methods have failed, and there are far more nonviolent methods that haven't even been attempted than violent ones.  You may believe that the principles of non-violence advocated by MLK are no longer viable, but I am unconvinced by a mere assertion.

Where, exactly, do you expect the violent methods you espouse to lead?  tactical defeat of the police?  Inflicting so many injustices on innocent people that the public cries "uncle' and surrenders to.... whatever you think the alternative to modern society is?

The practitioners of nonviolence had an endgame.  What's the endgame for you supporters of violence?

Excuse me, I'm not a supporter of violence. I'm sad for my country that it has come to this, something that will just lead to more brutality / no underlying fundamental change.

Noting that I can see how people might feel it is there only course of action does not mean that I condone the violence.

As to why they feel that's their only recourse? Well Tim actually noted it quite well, we've had many large peaceful protests in my lifetime and they don't seem to accomplish much. More like an emotional bonding session for the protesters than a driver of any real change. I can see how that can lead some to question the utility of yet another ineffectual march.

It has been nearly 6 years since the death of Eric Garner, so nearly 6 years from when I felt fear, sadness and anger as I tried to commute home through a crowd of protesters monitored by the police. 6 years and what has changed? Well if anything, it has gotten worse as leadership of the country only repeatedly adds fuel to the flames. 

Looking back at MLK, in his day, his non-violent approach was labeled as extremist. That's not the case today and that's why it is an insufficient outlet for releasing 'repressed emotions'.

QuoteOppressed people cannot remain oppressed forever. The yearning for freedom eventually manifests itself, and that is what has happened to the American Negro. Something within has reminded him of his birthright of freedom, and something without has reminded him that it can be gained. Consciously or unconsciously, he has been caught up by the Zeitgeist, and with his black brothers of Africa and his brown and yellow brothers of Asia, South America and the Caribbean, the United States Negro is moving with a sense of great urgency toward the promised land of racial justice. If one recognizes this vital urge that has engulfed the Negro community, one should readily understand why public demonstrations are taking place. The Negro has many pent up resentments and latent frustrations, and he must release them. So let him march; let him make prayer pilgrimages to the city hall; let him go on freedom rides -and try to understand why he must do so. If his repressed emotions are not released in nonviolent ways, they will seek expression through violence; this is not a threat but a fact of history. So I have not said to my people: "Get rid of your discontent." Rather, I have tried to say that this normal and healthy discontent can be channeled into the creative outlet of nonviolent direct action. And now this approach is being termed extremist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 03:15:35 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 30, 2020, 02:45:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

The Stonewall Riots were massive and got us LGBT rights.


That seems like quite the paraphrase. Gays were still continually arrested after Stonewall and just looking it up, the Stonewall Inn actually went out of business shortly after the Stonewall Riots.

I think the best that can be said is that they sparked a new sense of gay consciousness/militancy that led to more coherent activism which led to increase rights for gays.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 03:20:14 AM
I think another difference these days might be that in the 60s, there were still discriminatory laws on the books that were struck down due to the success of the Civil Rights Movement.

Today, at least on paper, minorities enjoy the same rights, freedoms, and protections as white people, but in practice they're often treated very differently. The change required now is structural and in the minds of people, and that is much more difficult to accomplish than changing the laws on the books.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 05:36:07 AM
Meanwhile at the US embassy in Vienna. Guy wants to write with chalk "That's why we kneel", with a police guard intentionally getting in the way, ignoring the Corona distancing rules, and asking him repeatedly if he's even properly registered in Austria.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZOAggzXQAEDALm?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZOAlgYXgAAm8yx?format=jpg&name=small)

The Twitter accound of the Vienna police has posted that they understand people are angry and that the photos have been forwarded to internal review.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on May 30, 2020, 05:50:38 AM
So much for Rotes Wien.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 05:58:17 AM
As mentioned before, the police in Vienna is not known to have a leftish bias. Or centrist bias.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 30, 2020, 06:27:31 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 05:58:17 AM
As mentioned before, the police in Vienna is not known to have a leftish bias. Or centrist bias.

As opposed to the bleeding hearts cops are usually known for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 06:47:20 AM
News crew in Lousiville shot at with pepper bullets (there didn't seem to be anyone there but them): https://twitter.com/ChrisBishopL1C4/status/1266546753182056453?s=20

Denver Post photographer claims he was aimed at deliberately by police with pepper bullets: https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/29/denver-post-photographer-pepper-balls-george-floyd-protest/

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2020, 07:46:52 AM
https://twitter.com/OfficialMLK3/status/1266452438501949441
Quote from: Martin Luther King IIIMy father said, "A riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? ...It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:05:13 AM
I hope the US would defeat the rioters  :bowler:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:09:55 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:05:13 AM
I hope the US would defeat the rioters  :bowler:

They are rioting because they are defeated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:18:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:09:55 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:05:13 AM
I hope the US would defeat the rioters  :bowler:

They are rioting because they are defeated.

No.  They are only defeated if that ex-policeman can walk free  :menace:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:24:05 AM
Are you defending the policeman who killed the black man in his custody?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:27:50 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:24:05 AM
Are you defending the policeman who killed the black man in his custody?

No, but that's not important.  What is important is that the rioters are defeated :contract:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:28:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:24:05 AM
Are you defending the policeman who killed the black man in his custody?

We know he is trash so yeah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:28:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:24:05 AM
Are you defending the policeman who killed the black man in his custody?

We know he is trash so yeah.

Yes, I know he doesn't mind being a cog in the oppression machine, but it seemed low even for him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:37:58 AM
We need to put politics aside and defeat the criminals  :bowler:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:41:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:28:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 08:24:05 AM
Are you defending the policeman who killed the black man in his custody?

We know he is trash so yeah.

Yes, I know he doesn't mind being a cog in the oppression machine, but it seemed low even for him.

:lol:

I don't know I feel like it is in-line with his typical views. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:46:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 02:20:41 AM
No, none of them needed a bailout. They took it though.

Why did they take it if they didn't need it?

And why does Lehman Brothers no longer exist, or Bear Stearns, or Washington Mutual?

How many trillions of profit did these banks that took the bailout or disappeared make in the 20 years prior to 2008?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:51:59 AM
Also can we give Mono a forced vacation from Languish?

He's getting more and more despicable. Plus when the commies finally get to HK he won't have access to Languish, so it'll train him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:55:04 AM
Languish is accessible from Mainland China, just so you know  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:57:03 AM

动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:57:33 AM
Not for long.  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:58:55 AM
I can't go to Mainland China for now because of COVID 19, so I can't test if your little experiment makes a difference  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/4HC1GJo.jpg)

Go US police! 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on May 30, 2020, 09:36:29 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:51:59 AM
Also can we give Mono a forced vacation from Languish?

He's getting more and more despicable. Plus when the commies finally get to HK he won't have access to Languish, so it'll train him.

Please. I say we bring back Seedy just for that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?

No, just your faux outrage and bullshit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 30, 2020, 09:41:24 AM
Come on Mono. Favouring the 1984 dystopia China is trying to build over something human is at least partially justifiable as personal preference, and so hoping young people fighting that system get defeated is sort of ok (even if I am disgusted by it).

But these riots have absolutely nothing to do with your anthive upheaval, so please stop this shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:44:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?

No, just your faux outrage and bullshit.

I'm not outraged* but I am tired of his shit. If he wants to post it, keep it in his own thread that is easy to avoid.

*about his posts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 09:46:35 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?

No, just your faux outrage and bullshit.

So you're annoyed with garbon over his outrage but are unresponsive to Mono cheering about it. Cool.

Who the fuck are you to determine that garbon's outrage is not legitimate?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:54:22 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 09:46:35 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?

No, just your faux outrage and bullshit.

So you're annoyed with garbon over his outrage but are unresponsive to Mono cheering about it. Cool.

Who the fuck are you to determine that garbon's outrage is not legitimate?

Who the fuck are you. Garbon is a grown adult and I'm quite sure doesnt need you to speak for him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 09:55:04 AM
QuoteDonald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis will never be mistaken for the late, great General Douglas McArthur or great fighter General George Patton. How come all of these places that defend so poorly are run by Liberal Democrats? Get tough and fight (and arrest the bad ones). STRENGTH!
4:25 PM · May 30, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 09:55:56 AM
I wonder if he knows any WW2 generals besides MACARTHUR and PATTON. STRONK!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 10:08:12 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:54:22 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 09:46:35 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?

No, just your faux outrage and bullshit.

So you're annoyed with garbon over his outrage but are unresponsive to Mono cheering about it. Cool.

Who the fuck are you to determine that garbon's outrage is not legitimate?

Who the fuck are you. Garbon is a grown adult and I'm quite sure doesnt need you to speak for him.

Whatever. Go stroke your guns and relax.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on May 30, 2020, 10:27:01 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:18:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:09:55 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:05:13 AM
I hope the US would defeat the rioters  :bowler:

They are rioting because they are defeated.

No.  They are only defeated if that ex-policeman can walk free  :menace:
Dude, you seriously have a screw loose somewhere.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on May 30, 2020, 10:34:29 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 30, 2020, 02:45:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2020, 02:22:37 PM
First, there is not much evidence it is effective in actually making positive change. There have been numerous violent protests over police violence, as far as I'm aware not much evidence this has changed the problem.

The Stonewall Riots were massive and got us LGBT rights.

I would say gay rights came about from a long process that really got rolling in the early 1980s, through which in many places the average ordinary non-gay person in many places increasingly saw gays as being "like us, but with different sexual orientation" rather than "perverts, deserving of pity at best".

It was not the case that the Stonewall Riots led directly to gay rights - as proof, gays still lacked full rights for many years after the riots. They certainly helped to form a consciousness among gay activists, but gays rioting did not lead directly to non-gays finding, on average and in some places, that gays were 'like us' and so depriving them of rights was unjust.

Edit: one very interesting result of Stonewall was that many gay activists forcefully rejected the "bar culture" of gays pre-Stonewall. Why? Exactly because that culture focused on underground sexuality, a thing these activists were keen to reject the image of - as it smacked of degeneracy, the stereotypes of which many non-gays attributed to gays - something they saw as an impediment to gaining rights. The focus of the battle shifted to gay marriage in the 90s exactly because this reinforced the "we are actually alike" point, which is why even gays uninterested in marriage for themselves were keen on such rights. Tensions remained, as pride parade excesses (displays of blatant sexuality) are seen by some as empowering, and by others as reinforcing negative stereotypes about gays.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 10:35:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 30, 2020, 10:27:01 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:18:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 08:09:55 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 08:05:13 AM
I hope the US would defeat the rioters  :bowler:

They are rioting because they are defeated.

No.  They are only defeated if that ex-policeman can walk free  :menace:
Dude, you seriously have a screw loose somewhere.

Gotta make sure that rioters don't win  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 30, 2020, 10:43:01 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 09:55:56 AM
I wonder if he knows any WW2 generals besides MACARTHUR and PATTON. STRONK!

Trump would have thrown the protesters back across the Yahoo in no time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
Minnesota governor says 80% of the rioters may be from out of state.

https://www.startribune.com/walz-twin-cities-under-assault-from-outside-agitators/570892512/

QuoteGov. Walz to 'fully mobilize' the National Guard

Gov. Tim Walz called it the largest deployment in the state's history.

Shaken by another night of chaos that overwhelmed law enforcement, Gov. Tim Walz said Saturday he will fully mobilize the National Guard to combat what he called a "tightly controlled" group of outside agitators, some of them from out of state, who have turned city streets into scenes of looting and arson.

The struggle to control the mayhem could bring another 1,000 National Guard soldiers into the cities, supplementing a force of 700, already the largest civil policing authority in the state's history. Law enforcement officials said it would be the first full mobilization of the Guard in Minnesota since World War II.

"Our cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul are under assault," Walz said, suggesting that a growing number of rioters are coming from outside the city, and possibly outside the state, in what he called "an organized attempt to destabilize civil society."

Walz said as many as 80% of the people causing destruction and fire in the cities could be from elsewhere. He distinguished the wanton looting and vandalism from the legitimate and mostly peaceful protests that began Tuesday, the day after the death of George Floyd, an unarmed black man who died in police custody.

It was not clear if the outside groups suspected to be playing a part in the mayhem are made up of white supremacist agitators, left wing anarchists, or both.

Authorities said they made about 40 arrests overnight in Minneapolis and St. Paul, mostly for burglary, curfew violations and destruction of property. Hennepin County jail logs showed detainees from Florida, Michigan, Missouri, Illinois and Alaska.


Walz said that while the agitators have gotten the attention they want, he vowed that by Saturday night "they are going to get an overwhelming force of safety, security and peace."

Walz ordered another temporary curfew starting at 8 p.m. Saturday and said peaceful protesters and others who remained outside after that would be "aiding and abetting" vandals who use the crowds as cover.

Walz's announcement came after a third night of violent protests and looting, despite an overnight curfew following the arrest of Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, who faces murder charges in Floyd's death, captured on video beamed around the world.

The violence spread rapidly until just before midnight and into early Saturday, when hundreds of police officers, state troopers and armed National Guard troops fanned out into areas of vandalism and arson, confronting rioters with tear gas and orders to disperse.

The continuing havoc, which has spread to cities across America, has prompted rounds of recrimination and finger-pointing among state and local leaders about the law enforcement response, which in many parts of Minneapolis had seemed all but undectable earlier Friday night.

Walz sought to calm the protesters in a 1:30 a.m. news conference with Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, both making emotional appeals to end the violence.

"The absolute chaos — this is not grieving, and this is not making a statement [about an injustice] that we fully acknowledge needs to be fixed — this is dangerous," Walz said. "You need to go home."

Walz said he had talked to Floyd's family and that they agreed what was happening in Minneapolis was horrific and counterproductive.

Walz has come under fire from Republicans in the Legislature calling for a more robust response. "They need to show the force, not have everything hidden behind the scenes," said Senate Minority Leader Paul Gazelka, R-East Gull Lake. "I'm glad that they called the curfew, but when people violate the curfew you have to arrest them."

Walz and the mayors of Minneapolis and St. Paul acknowledged that police, state patrol and National Guard soldiers were overwhelmed the past two nights by the extent of the rioting and vandalism, which State Public Safety Commissioner John Harrington estimated to "tens of thousands" of people.

Maj. Gen. Jon Jensen, adjutant general of the Minnesota National Guard, said that despite the largest show of force in state history Friday night, "it was not enough." He said the governor's full deployment order would mean "the Minnesota National Guard is all in,"

Staff writer Paul Walsh contributed to this report.


Remember the weird white guy who casually smashed windows on day 1? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETQ9PVfFkjE


P.S.: https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/protesters-defy-minneapolis-curfew-order-several-fires-set-during-4th-night-of-unrest-over-george-floyds-death/

Quote[...]

John Harrington, commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Public Safety, said state leaders have intel that may point to agitators — including white supremacist groups and drug cartels — possibly playing a role in the anarchy.

[...]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 11:34:10 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/5zUjWmm.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 30, 2020, 11:44:42 AM
Speaking of drug cartels, I wonder if quarantine has been good or bad for their business.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Iormlund on May 30, 2020, 11:56:56 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 30, 2020, 11:44:42 AM
Speaking of drug cartels, I wonder if quarantine has been good or bad for their business.  :hmm:

The most enterprising organized deliveries via gig economy services.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 12:03:05 PM
Meanwhile in Kansas City.

(https://i.redd.it/cqiec6roqw151.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 01:11:57 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 10:08:12 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:54:22 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 09:46:35 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Go US police! 

Hey despicable piece of shit, keep it in your bullshit little thread that you keep in private.

:rolleyes:

What you are happy to have him cheering deaths on?

No, just your faux outrage and bullshit.

So you're annoyed with garbon over his outrage but are unresponsive to Mono cheering about it. Cool.

Who the fuck are you to determine that garbon's outrage is not legitimate?

Who the fuck are you. Garbon is a grown adult and I'm quite sure doesnt need you to speak for him.

Whatever. Go stroke your guns and relax.

Always am. Currently restoring a Remington Model 11.  :blurgh:

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/100479832_10222126913833052_6359331434057957376_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=2epzacWq9t0AX-MuyLO&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=10db8374c874e1c05a5d3b4313d276ab&oe=5EF87451)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 30, 2020, 02:03:36 PM
How much training do US cops have, typically? I seem to recall hearing that it's very little compared to some other countries. In Sweden it takes 2.5 years to become a police officer. Is there such a thing as a typical length of time in the US, if you're talking basic cops?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2020, 02:03:36 PM
How much training do US cops have, typically? I seem to recall hearing that it's very little compared to some other countries. In Sweden it takes 2.5 years to become a police officer. Is there such a thing as a typical length of time in the US, if you're talking basic cops?

Academy anywhere from 6-12 mos. FTO phase can be 3 to 12 mos. New officers are usually on two year probation. This does not included any reoccurring in service training such as CIT, HNC, SRT, etc.

But it varies widely.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on May 30, 2020, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2020, 02:03:36 PM
How much training do US cops have, typically? I seem to recall hearing that it's very little compared to some other countries. In Sweden it takes 2.5 years to become a police officer. Is there such a thing as a typical length of time in the US, if you're talking basic cops?
Very little and widely varying.  You'd think that a job that involves the potentially violent interaction of state and individuals would have stringent training requirements, but that is really not the case in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 30, 2020, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2020, 02:03:36 PM
How much training do US cops have, typically? I seem to recall hearing that it's very little compared to some other countries. In Sweden it takes 2.5 years to become a police officer. Is there such a thing as a typical length of time in the US, if you're talking basic cops?

Academy anywhere from 6-12 mos. FTO phase can be 3 to 12 mos. New officers are usually on two year probation. This does not included any reoccurring in service training such as CIT, HNC, SRT, etc.

But it varies widely.

Yes.  That's serous problem in the US, which has a practically infinite number of police forces.  Fuckups can move from force to force until they find one that can tolerate their inadequacies.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 07:07:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2020, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2020, 02:03:36 PM
How much training do US cops have, typically? I seem to recall hearing that it's very little compared to some other countries. In Sweden it takes 2.5 years to become a police officer. Is there such a thing as a typical length of time in the US, if you're talking basic cops?

Academy anywhere from 6-12 mos. FTO phase can be 3 to 12 mos. New officers are usually on two year probation. This does not included any reoccurring in service training such as CIT, HNC, SRT, etc.

But it varies widely.

Yes.  That's serous problem in the US, which has a practically infinite number of police forces.  Fuckups can move from force to force until they find one that can tolerate their inadequacies.

and they find the right "Good Ole Boy" club.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 30, 2020, 07:18:34 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 07:07:24 PM
and they find the right "Good Ole Boy" club.
Yeah, i have to admit that I was a lot more tolerant of the "Blue Wall of Silence" when I benefited it from it.  It is a pretty major barrier to police reform in the US.  My advice to those interested in seeking police reform in the US would be to organize teams to just monitor and record US police activity using cell phones and whatever ad hoc abilities exist.  It seems to me that actual evidence is more persuasive than calls to attack innocent people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 08:27:43 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:46:56 AM
How many trillions of profit did these banks that took the bailout or disappeared make in the 20 years prior to 2008?

Bagillions and bagillions. 

The point I assume you're trying to make is that if the banks had retained all earnings, not paid dividends, not paid bonuses, and not bought those really high end bagels for the weekly meetings, they would have had enough cash on hand to weather the crisis without resorting to TARP funds.  There is of course the fact that many of the biggest banks were in just that position, and had to be coerced by the government into involuntarily accepting TARP money so that the the money market would not distinguish between weaker banks and stronger banks. 

There's also the unfortunate fact that this doesn't support your original claim, i.e. that banks didn't need TARP money.  Saying they wouldn't have needed the money if they had done X is not the same as saying they didn't need the money in reality.

It also doesn't support Timmy's claim that banks made money by lending money that wasn't repaid, which you at least gave the appearance of rushing to defend.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on May 30, 2020, 08:45:43 PM
Now I'm under curfew and the national guard is out. I went by the mall today and the national guard is hanging out on armored vehicles, so that is sweet.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 10:32:05 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 30, 2020, 08:45:43 PM
Now I'm under curfew and the national guard is out. I went by the mall today and the national guard is hanging out on armored vehicles, so that is sweet.

Nice!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 10:41:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 08:27:43 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 08:46:56 AM
How many trillions of profit did these banks that took the bailout or disappeared make in the 20 years prior to 2008?

Bagillions and bagillions. 

The point I assume you're trying to make is that if the banks had retained all earnings, not paid dividends, not paid bonuses, and not bought those really high end bagels for the weekly meetings, they would have had enough cash on hand to weather the crisis without resorting to TARP funds. 

I mean, yeah. You're arguing in really bad faith here.

I'm not saying to retain ALL earnings. Maybe, oh I dunno, 3 months of running expenses like they tell Joe Plumber to do? Maybe they don't need the expensive bagels? Or the 3rd yacht? Maybe there's no bonus? Does Joe Plumber get a bonus? Why don't they just have salaries?

The pursuit of greed makes for a poorer 99.9%. I don't think there's any argument there, is it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2020, 10:50:16 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2020, 10:41:34 PM
I mean, yeah. You're arguing in really bad faith here.

Man you've got a lot of nerve accusing me of arguing in bad faith.  I take exception to several of Timmy's statements, you leap in with a statement that I take exception to as well, you respond by changing the subject and cutting out the part of my post that shows that you're changing the subject and pretending you haven't, and then you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 11:12:17 PM
Where will America head in this? Will the protests/riots continue or spread?

Or will they peter out without much political consequences as often before?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 11:12:17 PM
Where will America head in this? Will the protests/riots continue or spread?

Or will they peter out without much political consequences as often before?

Peter out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2020, 11:28:09 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 11:12:17 PM
Where will America head in this? Will the protests/riots continue or spread?

Or will they peter out without much political consequences as often before?

Peter out.

Which I think is quite depressing. It seems to send the message, "Sure, riot if you want to. We'll crack down on you and just let you get it out of your system, and carry on as before."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:15:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 11:28:09 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 30, 2020, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2020, 11:12:17 PM
Where will America head in this? Will the protests/riots continue or spread?

Or will they peter out without much political consequences as often before?

Peter out.

Which I think is quite depressing. It seems to send the message, "Sure, riot if you want to. We'll crack down on you and just let you get it out of your system, and carry on as before."

Pretty much. But the narrative is already starting to change. Folks are generally Ok with marching, screaming, and blocking highways. It's when they start burning and destroying shot is when sympathy for the cause is lost. Wash, rinse, and repeat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 12:17:35 AM
With generally okay = they ignore it apart from it being a passing conversational topic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:19:52 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 12:17:35 AM
With generally okay = they ignore it apart from it being a passing conversational topic.

No, folks don't have an issue with protesting. Rioting, yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:06:04 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:19:52 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 12:17:35 AM
With generally okay = they ignore it apart from it being a passing conversational topic.

No, folks don't have an issue with protesting. Rioting, yes.

Of course, they generally don't. It has no impact on their lives and they can just wait till those people calm down.

Well except for when they are blocking the highway. Then they've gone too far.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:06:04 AM
Well except for when they are blocking the highway. Then they've gone too far.

Also, kneeling during the national anthem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:06:04 AM
Well except for when they are blocking the highway. Then they've gone too far.

Also, kneeling during the national anthem.

That's just something to bitch about on social media.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:14:12 AM
Btw, the claim that 80% of the protesters in Minneapolis are from out of state has been taken back and the governor has apologized for the mistake.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.

And how about the PD in Salt Lake City who repeatedly push and old man with a cane with their shields till he fell over?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 02:25:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.

And how about the PD in Salt Lake City who repeatedly push and old man with a cane with their shields till he fell over?

Sorry, not in that area. I'm sorry your riots are losing steam because of stupid people.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 31, 2020, 02:45:51 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:06:04 AM
Well except for when they are blocking the highway. Then they've gone too far.

Also, kneeling during the national anthem.

That's just something to bitch about on social media.


:huh: You know full well it was made a far bigger deal than that at the time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:49:35 AM
Long thread listing notable US race riots since the 1800s:

https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/status/1266574215135801354
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 02:53:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:49:35 AM
Long thread listing notable US race riots since the 1800s:

https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/status/1266574215135801354
I wouldn't call most of these riots in the last few days race riots. The crowds I've seen have been pretty diverse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 02:54:05 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.

Protesters or Riotors.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 03:01:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2020, 02:45:51 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:06:04 AM
Well except for when they are blocking the highway. Then they've gone too far.

Also, kneeling during the national anthem.

That's just something to bitch about on social media.


:huh: You know full well it was made a far bigger deal than that at the time.

I've never heard people talking about it IRL.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 03:05:34 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 02:54:05 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.

Protesters or Riotors.

Now I'm getting why you were in a rush to defend Mono.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 03:05:46 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 03:01:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2020, 02:45:51 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:06:04 AM
Well except for when they are blocking the highway. Then they've gone too far.

Also, kneeling during the national anthem.

That's just something to bitch about on social media.


:huh: You know full well it was made a far bigger deal than that at the time.

I've never heard people talking about it IRL.

Do you talk to people?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2020, 03:06:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 02:25:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:17:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.

And how about the PD in Salt Lake City who repeatedly push and old man with a cane with their shields till he fell over?

Sorry, not in that area. I'm sorry your riots are losing steam because of stupid people.



My riots? You okay, man?

Also, sad to hear you don't care about more than just your tiny patch in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 03:18:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 03:05:46 AM

Do you talk to people?

Not if I can help it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 03:34:24 AM
Seems a bit extreme for breaking curfew.

https://twitter.com/imactuallynina/status/1266912627193774080
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2020, 03:38:24 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 03:34:24 AM
Seems a bit extreme for breaking curfew.

https://twitter.com/imactuallynina/status/1266912627193774080

They do that when people refuse to unlock their doors and get out of the car.  Except the slashing tires thing, never heard of that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 04:04:25 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 03:34:24 AM
Seems a bit extreme for breaking curfew.

https://twitter.com/imactuallynina/status/1266912627193774080

Maybe they should have followed orders?  They were tazed etc not for breaking curfew, but for refusing to obey police orders. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 04:19:47 AM
Seems they're slashing a lot of tires Yi

https://twitter.com/andrewkimmel/status/1266992196361863169

Also, just firing paint canisters at random black folk chilling on their porch

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1267014041656057856
.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2020, 04:38:52 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 04:19:47 AM
Seems they're slashing a lot of tires Yi

Next they're going to lend them money and hope it doesn't get paid back, the bastards.

Don't know why you're directing that at me.  I said I had never heard of it before.  That's still true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 04:40:23 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 04:19:47 AM
Also, just firing paint canisters at random black folk chilling on their porch

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1267014041656057856
.

I suggest they arm themselves and go to the statehouse to protest this lockdown. It's president approved, after all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 05:19:36 AM
Don't bring bow and arrow to a riot, I guess?

https://twitter.com/Gingersonfire/status/1266884385854255104?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on May 31, 2020, 06:54:17 AM
A bow does not seem to be an effective melee weapon. A brief look at military history over the millennia could have taught that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on May 31, 2020, 07:37:56 AM
East Side Gallery on the Berlin Wall

(https://i.redd.it/8wtwq60bc2251.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 08:05:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.
I saw a lot of Americans who'd been in the military noting the difference between the discipline they would be expected to show, if local civilians were pelting them with rocks etc and the behaviour of the NYPD.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 08:24:23 AM
Ok, this made me chuckle.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTvvKCTy/Smart-Select-20200531-152234-Twitter.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on May 31, 2020, 08:56:45 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 08:05:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.
I saw a lot of Americans who'd been in the military noting the difference between the discipline they would be expected to show, if local civilians were pelting them with rocks etc and the behaviour of the NYPD.

I assume the difference lies in the training and experience of the troops and those leading them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 09:29:41 AM
Some of the footage is absolutely insane:
https://twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1266929391013109774?s=20
https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266952661791674370?s=20

Honestly it reminds me most of the way security/bouncers behave in a club. Just heavily armed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on May 31, 2020, 09:32:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 09:29:41 AM
Some of the footage is absolutely insane:
https://twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1266929391013109774?s=20
https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266952661791674370?s=20

Honestly it reminds me most of the way security/bouncers behave in a club. Just heavily armed.

The police don't want to deescalate. They want to suppress.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 09:41:05 AM
Some commenters mentioned that it's obvious that, unlike medical staff, American police forces don't have to worry about a shortage of protective gear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on May 31, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
Lots of videos of police deliberately targeting press (CBS, etc) with rubber bullets and tear gas.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on May 31, 2020, 10:05:00 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on May 31, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
Lots of videos of police deliberately targeting press (CBS, etc) with rubber bullets and tear gas.

Turns out they are glue. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on May 31, 2020, 10:31:36 AM
Portland was under curfew last night from 8pm - 6am. Lots of video footage of the "rioters" coming out. They're primarily anarchists and Proud Boys, with the obvious opportunists in the mix.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 10:45:18 AM
A different kind of police response in Flint, Michigan:

https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1267107339833925634?s=20

:)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 10:47:25 AM
Police chief of Santa Cruz taking a knee:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZTkEidXsAAULcP?format=jpg&name=small)

Police in Fargo engaging with protesters:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZTcKuOWsAAvJsT?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 10:49:09 AM
New Jersey police marching with protesters: https://twitter.com/AMPZ222/status/1266834970187685889?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 11:02:38 AM
I was also really impressed by the leadership on display in Atlanta, from mayor and police chief and rappers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:21:15 AM
Also, there's always a tweet:

(https://i.redd.it/ufnmsj7qf2251.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:29:52 AM
QuoteSTEPHANOPOULOS: Your own government is warning that domestic terrorists from the far-right are involved in these riots as well. It's not just antifa.

NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER O'BRIEN: "Listen, everything I've seen & the reports we're receiving is that this is antifa."

O'Brien on CNN: "No, I don't think there's systemic racism... 99.9% of our law enforcement officers are great Americans."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:46:35 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 09:29:41 AM
Some of the footage is absolutely insane:
https://twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1266929391013109774?s=20
https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266952661791674370?s=20

Honestly it reminds me most of the way security/bouncers behave in a club. Just heavily armed.

Welcome to modern policing. Citizens are an enemy force to suppress.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:48:55 AM
German camera team also had a run in with the police when they were trying to film what was happening to *another* media team:

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1267119897806397442?s=20

(Deutsche Welle is government funded and broadcasts new in several languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:51:34 AM
Slate has, at long last, the correct headline:

« Police erupts in violence nationwide ».
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:57:09 AM
Also, culminating with the right's foaming at the mouth about antifa and conspiracy theories, Trump has tweeted that they would designate Antifa a terrorist organization...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:57:09 AM
Also, culminating with the right's foaming at the mouth about antifa and conspiracy theories, Trump has tweeted that they would designate Antifa a terrorist organization...
Can't help but think of his response after Charlottesville.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 10:49:09 AM
New Jersey police marching with protesters: https://twitter.com/AMPZ222/status/1266834970187685889?s=20
Incidentally these and other similar examples are great. But I suspect they're not easily replicable, because it feels like they are the result of fairly long-term engagement with the community which has cultivated good relations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 10:49:09 AM
New Jersey police marching with protesters: https://twitter.com/AMPZ222/status/1266834970187685889?s=20
Incidentally these and other similar examples are great. But I suspect they're not easily replicable, because it feels like they are the result of fairly long-term engagement with the community which has cultivated good relations.

I read that Camden has been running a program to that effect for years now, also drilling their police hard that force is the last option after everything else has been exhausted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 01:12:10 PM
Columbus, OH: woman and two others stand in the street in front of police line, 10, 15 meters away. She's holding up a sign. They get shot at with rubber bullets: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267113315613806592?s=20

Dallas: girl walking home with groceries, shot in the face by rubber bullet.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZVdr35UMAAL4j4?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZVpr2XU8AIH4a8?format=jpg&name=small)

Boy shot in the eye in Sacramento: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267029301389492224?s=20

San Antonio: guy standing out of the way, filming police walk by, gets shot twice with rubber bullets by cop aiming straight at him, drawing blood: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267119621951217667

NYC: Protester with hands up has his mask pulled down and gets pepper sprayed: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267016644842287104?s=20

Plus more. Full thread: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266952661791674370?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 01:35:11 PM
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-30/la-reporter-tear-gas-police

QuoteTimes reporter recounts being hit with tear gas and rubber bullets by Minnesota police

MINNEAPOLIS —  When Minnesota police advanced on peaceful protesters gathered at an intersection outside the Fifth Precinct late Saturday, I didn't expect them to fire on reporters.
I was wrong.

At about 8:30 p.m., a group of about two dozen Minneapolis police and sheriff's deputies appeared from behind a chain link fence opposite protesters. They were in riot gear and grasping batons.

A young African American woman approached the police, arms raised. An officer sprayed her in the face with something that smelled like pepper spray, and the woman ran to seek help from fellow protesters. A young African American man approached the officers, outraged, but another man pulled him back to the main group.

The police retreated back behind the fence. But moments later, a much larger phalanx of officers in riot gear emerged to block the street.

That left me stuck between the police and protesters, up against the precinct's brick wall. But I was with a group of other reporters, photographers and cameramen. The wall had small alcoves where we could duck for cover as police passed and advanced on protesters.

But that's not what happened
.

"This is the Minnesota State Patrol," a trooper announced through a bullhorn, notifying protesters they were in violation of the curfew and should disperse.

I figured he wasn't talking to us, that the press were exempt, just as during the COVID-19 pandemic we are exempt from quarantines and allowed to travel. We were wearing our credentials. The Times photographer I was with, Carolyn Cole, even wore a flak jacket labeled "Press."I was wrong.

The officers started by firing tear gas indiscriminately into the street. We watched, cameras rolling. But instead of passing, the officers turned, backed us up against the precinct wall and fired.

"Press!" I shouted, waving my notebook an arm's length from an officer in riot gear advancing through the smoke.

The officer said nothing, just kept firing. Cole was hit in the face. Other reporters piled on top of me against the wall. That, plus my goggles and mask, shielded me from most of the gas.

But officers kept firing. We realized we had to run, too. We were not exempt. They were treating us as scofflaws.

We tried to move along the wall, but it wasn't clear where the officers wanted us to go. They issued no order, just fired. Cole, the photographer, shouted that she was unable to see because she'd been hit. One of the cameras was still rolling, and my sister, who lives nearby with her family, heard me shouting on television, "Where do we go?"

The local cameraman filming it was arrested and later released after also displaying his credentials.

None of the officers responded. Instead, they chased us along the wall and into a corner. Smoke billowed around us. Canisters kept dropping. I was hit in the leg with what I believe was at least one, maybe two rubber bullets.

I didn't realize it, but I was bleeding from several wounds to my leg. Blood covered the face mask of a reporter next to me, who was so stunned someone had to tell him he was hurt.

We were up against another wall. I scaled it and ran to the nearest open door — a senior apartment complex that had allowed a few fleeing protesters to hide
. We cowered as officers prowled outside the front window, chasing other people. I called Cole, who had been taken in and treated by a neighbor a few blocks away.

An 18-year-old protester sheltering with me gave me a ride to the neighbor's house, and she gave us a ride to seek treatment. As we left, we passed another group of police. They fired a pellet gun at her car, which left red paint on the passenger window. Once we reached a wealthy suburb that hadn't seen protests, police just waved us through.

I've covered protests involving police in Ferguson, Mo., Baton Rouge, La., Dallas and Los Angeles. I've also covered the U.S. military in war zones, including Iraq and Afghanistan. I have never been fired at by police until tonight.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on May 31, 2020, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:29:52 AM
QuoteSTEPHANOPOULOS: Your own government is warning that domestic terrorists from the far-right are involved in these riots as well. It's not just antifa.

NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER O'BRIEN: "Listen, everything I've seen & the reports we're receiving is that this is antifa."

O'Brien on CNN: "No, I don't think there's systemic racism... 99.9% of our law enforcement officers are great Americans."

Saw a good post on this today: If you have 10% bad cops and 90% good cops, and the good cops don't turn in the bad cops, then you have 100% bad cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:19:33 PM
Frankly, I'm appalled by the police conduct. There's some examples of police engaging with protesters and real solidarity, but the violence drowns it out.

Of course a rough response is expected to riots and looting. However, the cases of peaceful or non-threatening protesters being pelted with rubber bullets or attacked is shocking, as are what seem like deliberate attacks on the press at this point. There seem to be elements among the police who relish this and seize the opportunity to let off some frustrations themselves or settle some scores; at the very least the seem to want to send a message and don't mind escalating things further.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 02:25:01 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:19:33 PM
Of course a rough response is expected to riots and looting. However, the cases of peaceful or non-threatening protesters being pelted with rubber bullets or attacked is shocking, as are what seem like deliberate attacks on the press at this point. There seem to be elements among the police who relish this and seize the opportunity to let off some frustrations themselves or settle some scores; at the very least the seem to want to send a message and don't mind escalating things further.

Absolutely.

QuoteColletta initially denied knowing Hall and denied that she had ever come into contact with him on the night of his arrest, the indictment says, and lied when saying he was "brought to the ground very gently."

The indictment says the officers exchanged a series of messages during the days of protest duty.

In one Sept. 15, 2017, message, Myers writes "let's whoop some ass."

On Oct. 5, 2017, Hays writes "going rogue does feel good."

Boone later replies that "it's gonna be a lot of fun beating the hell out of these (expletive) once the sun goes down and nobody can tell us apart!!!!" On Sept. 17, he wrote that it was "a blast beating people that deserve it."

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/4-st-louis-police-officers-indicted-accused-of-beating-an-undercover-colleague-during-stockley-protests/article_4a82d209-b3cd-565e-9a97-309cf1c2a5af.amp.html?fbclid=IwAR0Dv3nJl5WoXfU9mLLFs2zkbSjBDO-TQPHtf-O0beByj-sNk6-gMwAzqcE
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
Yeah, I've no doubt there's loads trying to do a decent job and it's tough - yadda yadda yadda. But I've not been able to keep count of the number of videos I've seen of police in different forces behaving appalingly and with no sense that they should be trying to hide it, it's like they feel they've got total impunity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:48:55 PM
It's especially galling in contrast to protests a few weeks ago.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZXtBNrWkAQbZte?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 02:53:57 PM
Living in Hong Kong these days, there is a very real possibility of encountering the riot police.  In fact I interact with the police on a daily basis when I need to convince them they should open the gate for me to drive into the government HQs. 

The first rule I live by is don't photograph or film them under any circumstances.  It is just provocation if you do so.

Secondly, not that this has happened to me, but if I ever see riot police in full gear approaching me from a distance, I would leave the area as quickly as I can.  Move in the opposite direction of where the riot police is approaching.  I should convince them that I am leaving as quickly as I can, not standing in front of them, not confronting them, not fighting them.

Third, always address a police officer as "Sir" or "Madam".  When I open my mouth, those are the first words that come out of it.  I can tell police ranks by looking at their shoulder patches, and I use the honorifics regardless of their seniority. 

Fourth, if police stops me and searches me, I will comply totally.  No arguments whatsoever.  Don't demand an explanation. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 03:04:10 PM
Shut up Mono. Go jerk off to your authoritarian fantasies somewhere else.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
It looks like some people here can't tell the difference between peaceful protests and riots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 03:14:57 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:57:09 AM
Trump has tweeted that they would designate Antifa a terrorist organization...

It's about time, this is long overdue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 03:18:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 09:29:41 AM

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266952661791674370?s=20


I clearly heard the officers ordering everybody to get inside.  Why didn't the filmer comply? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 03:20:45 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 03:14:57 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:57:09 AM
Trump has tweeted that they would designate Antifa a terrorist organization...

It's about time, this is long overdue.

Quote from: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 11:57:09 AM
culminating with the right's foaming at the mouth about antifa and conspiracy theories
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 03:18:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 09:29:41 AM

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266952661791674370?s=20


I clearly heard the officers ordering everybody to get inside.  Why didn't the filmer comply?
Because they're on their own property.

Saw this image, which is kind of extraordinary and reminds me of Beirut:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZW1fgGXQAIt2fD?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 03:32:35 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 03:26:59 PM

Because they're on their own property.

Saw this image, which is kind of extraordinary and reminds me of Beirut:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZW1fgGXQAIt2fD?format=jpg&name=medium)

That's not a very good reason to flagrantly disobey a clear police order.  If police orders you to get inside, you get inside immediately.  The only acceptable explanation I can think of is you are deaf and can't hear the police.

Dunno, this happens in HK all the time, so I don't know what's so special about the picture. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2020, 03:36:51 PM
People should obey curfews by staying indoors.
The police should not enforce the curfew by firing paint cannisters at people on their porches.
If you're driving and detained by the police and you lock your doors and refuse to exit, you should expect to have your windows smashed and to be pulled out of the car.
Slashing the tires of cars I don't understand, especially of parked cars.
Looting is bad.
Shooting grocery shoppers in the face with rubber bullets is bad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 03:40:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2020, 03:36:51 PM
People should obey curfews by staying indoors.
The police should not enforce the curfew by firing paint cannisters at people on their porches.
If you're driving and detained by the police and you lock your doors and refuse to exit, you should expect to have your windows smashed and to be pulled out of the car.
Slashing the tires of cars I don't understand, especially of parked cars.
Looting is bad.
Shooting grocery shoppers in the face with rubber bullets is bad.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
It looks like some people here can't tell the difference between peaceful protests and riots.

Seems the problem is the cops are having trouble switching modes or reading the situation, so all protesters and even some onlookers get lumped in as "Rioters".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on May 31, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
It looks like some people here can't tell the difference between peaceful protests and riots.

Seems the problem is the cops are having trouble switching modes or reading the situation, so all protesters and even some onlookers get lumped in as "Rioters".

And of course the problem the police have telling rioters from film crews, nurses helping wounded, old men with canes...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
It looks like some people here can't tell the difference between peaceful protests and riots.

Seems the problem is the cops are having trouble switching modes or reading the situation, so all protesters and even some onlookers get lumped in as "Rioters".

In some cases, sure. I hoped we could all agree however that riots and looting are unacceptable, but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 04:35:23 PM
About 200 folks marching around downtown Shelton. No shenanigans, however an equal number of the local citizenry protecting shops/businesses. Yes Languish, all shops and businesses. We have a large Hispanic and Korean demographic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 31, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Perhaps we should prevent cops from wearing face coverings.  It would be nice to hold some of the these people responsible.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Perhaps we should prevent cops from wearing face coverings.  It would be nice to hold some of the these people responsible.

Violation of local guidelines.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 04:44:20 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 31, 2020, 04:15:24 PM

In some cases, sure. I hoped we could all agree however that riots and looting are unacceptable, but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.
Sure. But that's not what I've seen today. As Eddie says the number of media they've shot at, the residents on their porches they're shooting at, the old men on canes they're shoving.

It sort of feels as if the police have stopped being fellow civilians and citizens in many of these areas. And there's none of the basic level of discipline you'd expect as much as anything else. It looks like an undisciplined force lashing out in fear of losing control which is causing them to lose more control.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on May 31, 2020, 04:55:28 PM
Knocking over the old man, in broad daylight...that should symbolize all the excess right now going on from the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on May 31, 2020, 04:57:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Perhaps we should prevent cops from wearing face coverings.  It would be nice to hold some of the these people responsible.

Violation of local guidelines.

In Hungary all police officers must wear a clear identifier. With riot police that's their ID number painted on their helmets, IIRC. This has been done since the unfortunate incidents during the 2006 riots. And since those riots are a big part of the current far-right foundation myth, the Orban regime dares not touch this rule, at least not yet.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2020, 04:57:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Perhaps we should prevent cops from wearing face coverings.  It would be nice to hold some of the these people responsible.

Violation of local guidelines.

In Hungary all police officers must wear a clear identifier. With riot police that's their ID number painted on their helmets, IIRC. This has been done since the unfortunate incidents during the 2006 riots. And since those riots are a big part of the current far-right foundation myth, the Orban regime dares not touch this rule, at least not yet.

Not a bad idea.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on May 31, 2020, 05:02:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Perhaps we should prevent cops from wearing face coverings.  It would be nice to hold some of the these people responsible.

That's the crux of the problem. Police are not being held accountable except in the most egregious cases (and often not even then).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on May 31, 2020, 05:51:11 PM
City of Cincinnati has a 10:00pm curfew. I live about a mile outside of the city limits, so no curfew for me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2020, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them. 

Well if we just stop murdering our citizens, and if we do we appropriately handle the fallout, there would be no protests for the looter and rioters to take advantage of. That is actually the real problem.

It just boggles the mind. The Minneapolis Police Department knew exactly what they would trigger if they did not handle this carefully. Instead they were just like: well fuck you every other police department in the United States. Have fun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on May 31, 2020, 07:09:14 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them.

You can't arrest everyone. It doesn't work in HK, China or the USA.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on May 31, 2020, 07:14:26 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them.

Mono, take it elsewhere for a bit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:25:41 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 31, 2020, 07:09:14 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them.

You can't arrest everyone. It doesn't work in HK, China or the USA.

You don't need to.  Just like you don't need to arrest 100% of all murderers for people to think twice before murdering people.  You only need to arrest a sufficient number of them for deterrence to work.  So you only need to arrest a reasonable percentage of rioters.  I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but it sure as hell isn't 100%. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on May 31, 2020, 07:41:51 PM
I think it is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2020, 07:57:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:25:41 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 31, 2020, 07:09:14 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them.

You can't arrest everyone. It doesn't work in HK, China or the USA.

You don't need to.  Just like you don't need to arrest 100% of all murderers for people to think twice before murdering people.  You only need to arrest a sufficient number of them for deterrence to work.  So you only need to arrest a reasonable percentage of rioters.  I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but it sure as hell isn't 100%. 

It won't work Mono. You don't get it.

Interesting you chose murder since that is exactly the crime we are protesting
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on May 31, 2020, 08:04:38 PM
Of course Mono gets it. Mono is an apologist for totalitarian regimes, and totalitarian regimes work in they are able to sufficiently delegitimize protest, instill fear and apathy, and crush dissent. This is what they do. This is what he hopes for. This is what he cheers for. It's not about him not 'getting it'. It's about him wishing for a regime that succeeds in doing these things.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 08:28:02 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:19:33 PM
Frankly, I'm appalled by the police conduct. There's some examples of police engaging with protesters and real solidarity, but the violence drowns it out.
Another thought on this - which I basically agree with - is, and this could just be my memory being shit, but this feels like the first time there's been any display of real solidarity from either individual cops or police forces. And it's patchy, at best, but those videos seem different than where this movement was a few years ago.

Similarly, and their votes indicate it won't matter a great deal, but one interesting thing in the Republican focus on antifa = terrorists, is that they are specifically saying BLM are the good guys, legitimate and should be listened to. Just noticed tonight with Marco Rubio's comments. Again, it's patchy, and I'm not sure how much it matter. But that seems a shift.

As I say I might just be misremembering and this has always been there. But it feels like the police and the right have sort of moved on or are starting to move from "the police have a difficult job and make snap-second decisions".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2020, 09:01:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 31, 2020, 08:56:45 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 08:05:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2020, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 12:32:48 AM
SPD showed great restraint today despite a couple of patrol cars burned and property damage. Much to the hysteria of local news retards.

Now let's look at the footage of the NYPD driving police cars into a group of protestors and the flimsy excuse provided by the mayor.
I saw a lot of Americans who'd been in the military noting the difference between the discipline they would be expected to show, if local civilians were pelting them with rocks etc and the behaviour of the NYPD.

I assume the difference lies in the training and experience of the troops and those leading them.
A lot of those troops were 18 or 19 and had one year's experience and yet they kept their discipline
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on May 31, 2020, 09:39:49 PM
https://twitter.com/GravelInstitute/status/1266929927116468225?s=20


America in 2020. That video is hard to watch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2020, 09:49:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 08:28:02 PM
Another thought on this - which I basically agree with - is, and this could just be my memory being shit, but this feels like the first time there's been any display of real solidarity from either individual cops or police forces. And it's patchy, at best, but those videos seem different than where this movement was a few years ago.

I think it shows that some police departments have learned how to react to these circumstances and how to better relate to the communities they are serving and protecting. I would like to think that anyway. I hope more follow their example.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on May 31, 2020, 10:22:22 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 31, 2020, 09:39:49 PM
https://twitter.com/GravelInstitute/status/1266929927116468225?s=20


America in 2020. That video is hard to watch.

Trump told them to rough people up and they're following that gleefully.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on May 31, 2020, 10:31:35 PM
You know, I am not really a bleeding heart type.  But I hurt from this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on May 31, 2020, 10:38:16 PM
Only robo-fascists like Mono don't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 10:49:55 PM
Overall I'm surprised at the low death toll of the protests.

It seems the National Guard in Minneapolis is armed and has ammo. From CNN:
Quote"We are currently armed, and our soldiers are carrying ammunition. This came upon this result of what I described to Gov. (Tim) Walz as a credible threat to the Minnesota National Guard," Army Maj. Gen. Jon Jensen, the Adjutant General of the Minnesota National Guard told a news conference Sunday.

I guess it would take but one squad to panic for tragedy to ensue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2020, 10:53:32 PM
Why? Why would you have them be armed with live ammo? Are they going to hire some Hessian Mercenaries next?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on May 31, 2020, 10:56:34 PM
Welcome to Kent State
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on May 31, 2020, 11:30:35 PM
I'd just like to say Mono is a real piece of shit.  :bowler:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:46:58 PM
https://twitter.com/JimNelsonTV/status/1267246200102760450?s=19
QuoteMessage from Cleveland police tonight: "No media is allowed downtown unless they are inside their place of business. Period."
@CLEpolice
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:50:12 PM
Re: identifying police who use excessive force: in several cities they've taped up their badge numbers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2020, 12:43:24 AM
Unless this is another incident I missed, two of those Atlanta cops were fired for the one I linked to earlier.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/aggressive-policing-tactics-called-question-national-protests-flare-n1220471?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
QuoteAn arrest in Atlanta of two college students Saturday night, as a citywide curfew was going into effect, was so excessive, police officials said Sunday, that two officers involved were fired and three others were placed on desk duty.

A video of the incident showed one of the students getting dragged from the car, while the driver, who remained behind the wheel, was tased and then pulled out of the vehicle. It's unclear what preceded the incident, but Atlanta Police Chief Erika Shields told reporters that "how we behaved is unacceptable," reported NBC affiliate WXIA
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 01, 2020, 12:46:37 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:46:58 PM
https://twitter.com/JimNelsonTV/status/1267246200102760450?s=19
QuoteMessage from Cleveland police tonight: "No media is allowed downtown unless they are inside their place of business. Period."
@CLEpolice

That's stupid. News in Seattle/Bellevue have been excellent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 12:52:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 01, 2020, 12:46:37 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:46:58 PM
https://twitter.com/JimNelsonTV/status/1267246200102760450?s=19
QuoteMessage from Cleveland police tonight: "No media is allowed downtown unless they are inside their place of business. Period."
@CLEpolice

That's stupid. News in Seattle/Bellevue have been excellent.

It appears there's supposedly a mix up in communications that was misinterpreted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 01, 2020, 12:53:55 AM
Ah, that would been bad move by the city.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 01:03:00 AM
With the Targets being looted I'm reminded of one of the most embarrassing family moments in my life. Early 2002, visiting my middle sister in Fayetteville, NC, her husband being stationed at Ft. Bragg. My Mom was making dinner, and my sister and I headed to Target. She wanted some electrical thingy - I forget what - and wanted to check at a customer service desk if they had that in stock.

The black guy at the desk was still serving another (black) customer, so my sister and I started browsing the aisles. When we return to the desk the guy is serving another (black) customer. My sister complained that we had been there first, and the guy said we'd just walked away, so he hadn't known if we still needed service. My sister insisted we were first, and he said he'd be right with us.

At which my sister exploded, "Fucking niggers!" and went on a tirade how blacks were treating whites like shit like they were owed anything, and it's no wonder people were racist if this is how blacks treat whites and she would never set foot in this "fucking nigger store" again.

I was shocked, dumbfounded, and honestly had no idea to react. She didn't mention this when we were back at her house, and I had absolutely no idea how to deal with it. I believe it was a while before she went back to any Target.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 01, 2020, 01:05:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 01, 2020, 12:46:37 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:46:58 PM
https://twitter.com/JimNelsonTV/status/1267246200102760450?s=19
QuoteMessage from Cleveland police tonight: "No media is allowed downtown unless they are inside their place of business. Period."
@CLEpolice

That's stupid. News in Seattle/Bellevue have been excellent.

Why do we care? :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 01:13:10 AM
https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twitter-1843813751

QuoteNYPD Union Doxes Mayor's Daughter on Twitter

A New York City Police Department union known for its controversial attacks on Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted personally identifying information about his daughter on Sunday night, including a residential address, apartment number, and her New York State ID number.

The tweet by the Sergeants Benevolent Association (SBA), which in February claimed that members of the NYPD were "declaring war" against De Blasio, attacked the mayor's daughter, Chiara de Blasio, for being arrested during an "unlawful assembly" on Saturday night.

Multiple news outlets reported that NYPD arrested De Blasio, the younger, during the fifth night of nationwide protests over the police-killing of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man whose alleged murder at the hands of four Minneapolis police officers sparked protests and violent clashes with authorities in dozens of major cities.

The SBA, run by union boss Ed Mullins, Mayor De Blasio's fiercest critic, included a photo of a computer screen which appeared to be his 25-year-old daughter's arrest report. The report included her date of birth, NYS ID number, and various biographical information, such as height, weight, and citizenship status. It also included an apartment number and home address, which appeared to be Gracie Mansion, the mayor's residence (though the zip code did not appear correct.)

Twitter's policies expressly forbid users from posting personal information, including identity documents, including government-issued IDs. Posting home addresses "or other identifying information related to locations that are considered private" is also forbidden.

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jucecewku77xr880gw7e.png)

The SBA's tweet remained up for more than an hour before eventually being taken down after a several users (including this reporter) flagged the tweet for abuse.

Twitter has yet to respond to a request for comment.

Althougth his duties relate almost entirely to the operations of one of New York City's most highly visible police unions, Mullins, a former NYPD sergeant of Brooklyn's 67th Precinct, continues to receive a taxpayer-funded salary of $133,524, according to the Gothamist.

Mullins' views on policing and his frequent attacks on the mayor's office are widely viewed as controversial. He has a history of defending the stop-and-frisk program under former Mayor Mike Bloomberg, a racial-profiling operation that civil rights leaders hold as chiefly responsible for dramatically worsening the relationship between minority communities and the NYPD.

Under stop-and-frisk, Blacks and Latinos were disproportionately targeted more than 5 million times by the NYPD between 2002 and 2013, when U.S. District Court Judge Shira Scheindlin ruled the practice unconstitutional. Mullins has called the practice "productive" and "an effective policy."

The SBA's latest attack on De Blasio and his daughter came day after the mayor defended the NYPD's aggressive and often violent tactics while facing off against protesters in Brooklyn. Video on social media showed two NYPD vehicles plowing into a crowd of demonstrators who were throwing traffic cones and other objects, knocking some to the ground.

De Blasio's description of the incident did not match footage of it circulating online. While he claimed it was "inappropriate for protesters to surround a police vehicle and threaten police officers," video clearly shows the police vehicles were not surrounded. One of the vehicles was in forward motion nearly the entire time with no one standing behind it. Protesters were only occasionally to the rear of the other vehicle.

De Blasio attempted to walk back some of his statement on Sunday, saying he did not like what he saw "one bit."

The protests over George Floyd's death have gone for six days, spreading further and further. Some 40 cities are now holding daily protests, including in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where Floyd was killed. Incidents of arson and looting have been commonplace after dark, prompted curfews and National Guard units to be deployed in multiple cities.

Footage captured during the day, however, has shown dozens of incidents of police officers appearing to break law, in some cases violently shoving demonstrators for no reason, or attacking them as they retreat with punches, kicks, clubs, pellet guns, tear gas, and concussion grenades. Members of the news media appear to be prime targets, with countless journalists and news crews reporting they've been attacked and shot with "less-lethal" rounds while holding their press badges high in the air.

Some of the most alarming footage taken shows police officers exploding with rage at random civilians walking on sidewalks far from protesters with no apparent reason, hitting them in the face with pepper spray and shoving them before casually walking away.

One video, taken in Minneapolis on Saturday, captured police officers in black masks being escorted by a military Humvee firing what appeared to be paint canisters directly at a woman standing on her porch in a quiet neighborhood. Before firing, one officer can be heard screaming: "Light 'em up!

The Humvee appeared to belong to the National Guard, which had deployed at Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz request earlier in the day. In an email to Gizmodo yesterday, the National Guard declined to confirm ownership of the vehicle.



Meanwhile, a lawyer for the LAPD police union has called on Twitter for rioters/looters to be shot:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZWeiZCWAAAbGKW?format=png&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZWejKGXkAE2Qnw?format=png&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZWekM_WAAIo8ko?format=png&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZWfKHnWoAIG49B?format=png&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZWfLEzX0AA8RhC?format=png&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZWfUmJWsAAcCYg?format=png&name=small)

A longer post of her history: https://imgur.com/tmpy5FB

https://sports.yahoo.com/michael-pittman-jr-usc-lapd-tweets-twitter-profile-picture-031954595.html

She's since removed the job description from her profile and deleted some of the posts, saying she was in a state of anger. Michael Pittman, the football player with whom she poses in her profile picture has asked her to remove him from her profile picture.

QuoteMy remarks were made in a fit of anger at circumstances in general. It was a stupid thing to say. And wasn't directed at anyone's race. Just upset at all the destruction.
— SoCalMAB (@SoCalMAB) June 1, 2020
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 01, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
The rioting is indeed something to be upset about. Maybe police should see about preventing the causes of the protests that provide cover for those people with as much vigor as they see about dealing with the effects. Just a thought.

Edit: Though I guess I should point out she also stated that protestors should be shot as well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 01, 2020, 01:15:45 AM
I'd just read about NYPD and mayor's daughter. Wtf.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 01, 2020, 01:17:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 01:03:00 AM
With the Targets being looted I'm reminded of one of the most embarrassing family moments in my life. Early 2002, visiting my middle sister in Fayetteville, NC, her husband being stationed at Ft. Bragg. My Mom was making dinner, and my sister and I headed to Target. She wanted some electrical thingy - I forget what - and wanted to check at a customer service desk if they had that in stock.

The black guy at the desk was still serving another (black) customer, so my sister and I started browsing the aisles. When we return to the desk the guy is serving another (black) customer. My sister complained that we had been there first, and the guy said we'd just walked away, so he hadn't known if we still needed service. My sister insisted we were first, and he said he'd be right with us.

At which my sister exploded, "Fucking niggers!" and went on a tirade how blacks were treating whites like shit like they were owed anything, and it's no wonder people were racist if this is how blacks treat whites and she would never set foot in this "fucking nigger store" again.

I was shocked, dumbfounded, and honestly had no idea to react. She didn't mention this when we were back at her house, and I had absolutely no idea how to deal with it. I believe it was a while before she went back to any Target.

I can see why you don't visit often.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 01, 2020, 01:18:58 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 31, 2020, 08:28:02 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 02:19:33 PM
Frankly, I'm appalled by the police conduct. There's some examples of police engaging with protesters and real solidarity, but the violence drowns it out.
Another thought on this - which I basically agree with - is, and this could just be my memory being shit, but this feels like the first time there's been any display of real solidarity from either individual cops or police forces. And it's patchy, at best, but those videos seem different than where this movement was a few years ago.

Similarly, and their votes indicate it won't matter a great deal, but one interesting thing in the Republican focus on antifa = terrorists, is that they are specifically saying BLM are the good guys, legitimate and should be listened to. Just noticed tonight with Marco Rubio's comments. Again, it's patchy, and I'm not sure how much it matter. But that seems a shift.

As I say I might just be misremembering and this has always been there. But it feels like the police and the right have sort of moved on or are starting to move from "the police have a difficult job and make snap-second decisions".

I'd say wishful thinking.

https://www.vox.com/2015/9/30/9427919/marco-rubio-black-lives-matter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Gups on June 01, 2020, 02:21:20 AM
This is so painful to read and watch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:47:59 AM
So Trump switched off the White House lights and went into the bunker for a spell last night.

But wearing a mask would make him look weak. :rolleyes:

(Yes, he probably went into the bunker at the suggestion of security staff, but still ...)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 02:49:01 AM
Is Steiner's attack coming?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:54:26 AM
Young man in Charleston kneels with others in front of police. Says they're all family, he wants to understand them, they should all try understand each other etc., how everyone is afraid. Nothing bad, just a guy trying to reach out and make sense of it all.

Of course he gets taken away by police.

https://twitter.com/sweeeetdee_/status/1267319103167107072?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:59:54 AM
Cincinnati police replaced the flag at the Hamilton Justice Center after the US flag disappeared with a Thin Blue Line one.

(https://i.redd.it/e472egws86251.jpg)

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/sheriff-thin-blue-line-flag-was-raised-outside-hamilton-county-justice-center
QuoteIn a tweet posted hours after the photo went viral on Twitter and Reddit, Neil wrote that deputies raised the flag in honor of a Cincinnati police officer whose ballistic helmet had been struck by a bullet early Sunday morning.

"The flag has been removed and we will replace it with the American Flag in the morning," he wrote.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 01, 2020, 03:04:48 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:59:54 AM
Cincinnati police replaced the flag at the Hamilton Justice Center after the US flag disappeared with a Thin Blue Line one.

(https://i.redd.it/e472egws86251.jpg)

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/sheriff-thin-blue-line-flag-was-raised-outside-hamilton-county-justice-center
QuoteIn a tweet posted hours after the photo went viral on Twitter and Reddit, Neil wrote that deputies raised the flag in honor of a Cincinnati police officer whose ballistic helmet had been struck by a bullet early Sunday morning.

"The flag has been removed and we will replace it with the American Flag in the morning," he wrote.

So they are at war with us.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 01, 2020, 03:09:41 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them.

I don't know if they would be able to arrest 99% of police and billionaires in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 01, 2020, 03:14:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:47:59 AM
So Trump switched off the White House lights and went into the bunker for a spell last night.

Any chance he shoots himself while in there?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 03:50:35 AM
https://twitter.com/channiescloud_/status/1267333317927395329?s=20

Cops arrest black dude who chews them out all the way throughout ... turns out they arrested an FBI agent. Oops. "You guys are the dumbest motherfuckers I've met in my life."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 03:53:49 AM
G-men curse?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 04:29:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 31, 2020, 11:48:55 AM
German camera team also had a run in with the police when they were trying to film what was happening to *another* media team:

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1267119897806397442?s=20

(Deutsche Welle is government funded and broadcasts new in several languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle)
:lol: That's the most admirably German thing I've ever seen. Being fired on in the middle of some police disturbances (when they're reporting on the police arresting another set of journalists it seems unfair to describe it as "civil" unrest or disturbances) and arguing about the appropriate procedure :wub:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 01, 2020, 04:34:55 AM
Sheilbh had a great point earlier about the police afraid of losing control, I think that is what happening. Not that it is any excuse, quite the opposite. I think it is very dangerous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2020, 04:48:58 AM
Honest question, is police reform a real possibility in the US at the moment? There seems to be so much disfunction and things gone wrong in the last decades that I wonder if it is realistic to expect some kind of change. Some departments seem to deserve outright disbanding and starting from scratch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 04:57:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2020, 04:48:58 AM
Honest question, is police reform a real possibility in the US at the moment? There seems to be so much disfunction and things gone wrong in the last decades that I wonder if it is realistic to expect some kind of change. Some departments seem to deserve outright disbanding and starting from scratch.

From what I understand it's hard because unlike in other countries the police forces and jurisdictions in the US are highly decentralized.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 05:01:37 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 04:57:31 AM
From what I understand it's hard because unlike in other countries the police forces and jurisdictions in the US are highly decentralized.
Yeah. I've read stories of outrageous misconduct/investigation fuck-ups that keep being repeated in small towns, or rural areas and there's no accountability because the sheriff is elected. So their accountability is democratic in theory, but they keep being re-elected.

It should be slightly different in bigger cities I imagine because the chief of police/commissioner will answer to the mayor?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2020, 05:05:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 04:57:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2020, 04:48:58 AM
Honest question, is police reform a real possibility in the US at the moment? There seems to be so much disfunction and things gone wrong in the last decades that I wonder if it is realistic to expect some kind of change. Some departments seem to deserve outright disbanding and starting from scratch.

From what I understand it's hard because unlike in other countries the police forces and jurisdictions in the US are highly decentralized.

I'm aware of that, but still some things could be done from the top, like stopping the issuing of military equipment to police forces.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 01, 2020, 05:27:41 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/31/george-floyd-protests-latest-news-riots-us-cities-donald-trump-police-brutality-live?page=with:block-5ed4d1088f087122eca533a3#block-5ed4d1088f087122eca533a3

QuoteWe've already reported how China's state media is using these protests as an opportunity to goad Donald Trump and deflect from its own government's treatment of Hong Kong and protesters in the city.

Iran is also getting in on the act. Its foreign ministry spokesman has just given this press conference that observers are saying is the first he's ever given in English, in which he directly addresses American protesters with messages of support.

Quote
Abas Aslani
@AbasAslani
#Iran's Foreign Ministry spox to American people: The world has heard your outcry over the State oppression. The world is standing with you...The American regime is perusing violence & bullying at home & abroad...Stop violence against your people & let them breathe.#GeorgeFloyd

His government doesn't deem Iranians worthy of the same support, if last November's nationwide protests are any indication. Security forces used teargas, live ammunition and other repressive measures to crush those demonstrations, which also involved riots and destruction of banks and state buildings. Estimates of how many were killed range from 304, according to Amnesty International, to about 1,500 according to Reuters. The Iranian government has not released its own figure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 01, 2020, 05:29:25 AM
America loves bullies.  Suspected crimes committed by law enforcement need to be taken care of at the federal level.  Have the FBI come in and frog-march them out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 05:31:58 AM
I think it's certainly possible to reform American law enforcement. All it takes is strong moral leadership from the very top.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 05:44:28 AM
It doesn't seem to help that a popular view appears to be that criminals deserve any bad treatment, legal or not. Well, unless they wear business suits and drive expensive cars.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2020, 05:47:20 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 05:01:37 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 04:57:31 AM
From what I understand it's hard because unlike in other countries the police forces and jurisdictions in the US are highly decentralized.
Yeah. I've read stories of outrageous misconduct/investigation fuck-ups that keep being repeated in small towns, or rural areas and there's no accountability because the sheriff is elected. So their accountability is democratic in theory, but they keep being re-elected.

It should be slightly different in bigger cities I imagine because the chief of police/commissioner will answer to the mayor?

But in this case the misconduct is on municipal police forces of mid-size orlarge cities, not rural police forces. I wonder, for instance, what could be done through training. Most of the brutality we see on the news seems to come from municipal police, not state troopers or guards or similar other bodies. Are the requiriments for training/oversight lower at municipal police? Who can get to act upon them, only the city or also the county or state, not to get to the federal level?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2020, 05:47:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 05:44:28 AM
It doesn't seem to help that a popular view appears to be that criminals deserve any bad treatment, legal or not. Well, unless they wear business suits and drive expensive cars.

Or that anybody wearing an uniform is a hero by default.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 06:37:23 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 05:31:58 AM
I think it's certainly possible to reform American law enforcement. All it takes is strong moral leadership from the very top.
I don't think leadership is all it takes, police brutality and police impunity has become one of the polarized issues, and thus fixing them won't get the bipartisan buy-in.  Frankly speaking, I suspect that a great percentage of the population doesn't think that holding police back is a desirable thing as long as the "right people" are on the business end of it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 07:51:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2020, 04:57:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2020, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Perhaps we should prevent cops from wearing face coverings.  It would be nice to hold some of the these people responsible.

Violation of local guidelines.

In Hungary all police officers must wear a clear identifier. With riot police that's their ID number painted on their helmets, IIRC. This has been done since the unfortunate incidents during the 2006 riots. And since those riots are a big part of the current far-right foundation myth, the Orban regime dares not touch this rule, at least not yet.

Police here often cover their badge number, like this brave cop who maced a 10 year old:
https://twitter.com/zellieimani/status/1267057207172050944?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 07:56:28 AM
Covering up the badge number should be a crime in itself, just like filing away a serial number on a gun.  The very act seems to indicate premeditation to commit misconduct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 08:14:30 AM
I would be surprised if it's not already against official department policy in most places. The problem is the rotten leadership that turns a blind eye and the thin blue line that closes ranks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 08:14:30 AM
I would be surprised if it's not already against official department policy in most places. The problem is the rotten leadership that turns a blind eye and the thin blue line that closes ranks.
Policy is one thing, crime is another.  It's a premeditation to violate constitutional rights, that's not a question of policy.  You're using the power of the law by continuing to wear the uniform while intentionally derailing the accountability part of the deal.  That's not to say that the way policing policies are enforced shouldn't be reformed, it's a whole other issue, and probably a much bigger one than this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 08:22:46 AM
My impression is that in many cases it's the unions, not the departments, that stand in the way of accountability and reform.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 01, 2020, 08:40:43 AM
My overall impression is that the system of policing in the US is so local that creating some uniform accountability is made very difficult. There should be a completely independent agency that consistently investigates fatal interactions with police, but that would be difficult to implement. Having the police investigate themselves creates an obvious conflict of interest.

We have an oversight system for such encounters in Ontario, but it suffers criticism for lacking teeth. What is necessary is an oversight agency that is both not corrupt and willing and able to lay blame where it is deserved, and recommend charges.

This is of course in addition to the problem of a judicial system that is heavily stacked in favour of the police, the fact that other cops will often lie to shield their own, etc.

There will always be problematic police encounters, and systemic racism is not easy to eradicate. What destroys public trust more than anything else is that nothing whatever appears to be done about them. These are problems in Canada as well as the US, but the Canadian cops have not gone down the route of militarization and there are at least some oversight mechanisms, even if these aren't yet strong enough; plus the major systemic racism problem in Canada is more rural than urban (the primary victims being native Canadians rather than Black Canadians, though of course Black Canadians face some as well).

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 08:54:50 AM
The way I see it, policing is a civil rights issue, police officers are empowered to take the lives of citizens under some circumstances.  The only way to truly protect the rights of the citizens is with federal oversight, both for investigation of misconduct as well as for minimum training requirements.  Police misconduct has to be a federal crime, just like a lot of other civil rights violations.  With it being a federal crime, there would hopefully be more uniformity and less room for conflict of interest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 09:09:30 AM
Yeah and crucially there's no police/civilian distinction like there is military/civilian. The police are civilians, that's kind of the point of police forces.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 01, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

This is a good point. It isn't made better by the fact that the US cops are given so much military gear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 01, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

This is a good point. It isn't made better by the fact that the US cops are given so much military gear.

I tend to think that the latter follows the former.  The vets want the same toys they used to use, and the non-vets likely tend towards being the "tacti-cool" types that eat it up as well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:26:26 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 01, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

This is a good point. It isn't made better by the fact that the US cops are given so much military gear.

I tend to think that the latter follows the former.  The vets want the same toys they used to use, and the non-vets likely tend towards being the "tacti-cool" types that eat it up as well.

Yep.  That's a point I was going to make myself.  I think that the gear is following the guys, who are all "well, in Iraq we could deal with this because we had...."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 09:28:30 AM
I think the gear is more the symptom than the cause, though it's a highly symbolic symptom.  The blue tribalism is the cause.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 01, 2020, 09:30:15 AM
But the Federal government is also making the gear available.

Is it the only source for Local departments?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:32:01 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 01, 2020, 09:30:15 AM
But the Federal government is also making the gear available.

Is it the only source for Local departments?

Some of the gear for sure...armored vehicles are the famous example.  The Feds have definitely not helped in discouraging the practice.

There are plenty of producers/vendors for mil-spec knock-offs in blue color (here I am thinking of stuff like the tactical helmets, body armor, and all the whiz-bang accessory holders, etc) that plenty of departments/officers would probably happily get on their own.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 01, 2020, 09:33:11 AM
Certainly the gear is symtomatic and not causal, and I agree it follows the guys. Point though is that it psychologically reinforces the militarization already in progress. On both sides of the police/public divide. They look more like an occupying army with all that gear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:35:43 AM
Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 01, 2020, 09:38:18 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:35:43 AM
Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).

Well what evidence are they citing they need it?

Slight bit of an aside:

QuoteIn New York, major crime complaints fell when cops took a break from 'proactive policing'

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html
https://newrepublic.com/article/154895/new-york-police-slowdown-backfiring
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:44:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 01, 2020, 09:38:18 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:35:43 AM
Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).

Well what evidence are they citing they need it?

I did not mean to suggest there was any.  The point was it is the type of argument that could be made without evidence and still seem plausible to many.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 01, 2020, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 01, 2020, 09:35:43 AM
Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).

A part of it is society's increasing intolerance of risk in any form (and fear of it).

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-dallas-shooting-was-among-the-deadliest-for-police-in-u-s-history/

The killing of police officers by gunfire or assault is significantly less than it was in earlier eras, even on an absolute scale before adjusting for our larger population, but it is probably a losing political argument to say that we won't invest in armored cars or whatever for police because the cost isn't worth the lives saved.

(and here I'm not refer to cost in just $$$ terms, but also community engagement, etc.)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 09:58:04 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZbpY86WoAA1Hjj?format=png&name=small)

(it says candidate, but he's a sitting senator for Arkansas right now)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 10:23:13 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.
Huh. I argued this 5 or 6 years ago on this forum and it was argued by others -- with some justification, I thought -- that veterans were among the most professional of cops, with lower shooting rates than non-veterans with similar roles. It would be interesting to see the data on this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 01, 2020, 10:23:51 AM
Don't discount that a big portion of the protesters acting violently really just want to break shit.

A rough majority of the city I live in is black, the mayor is black, a majority of the police force is black, both the district attorneys from the two counties covering the city are black. But the nearest mall to me has been ransacked as have a bunch of the stores in the area. There are pictures of the crowds breaking into businesses into some of the nicer parts of town, and some of them are just groups of white people.

Which is a fascinating dynamic--a white cop kills a black dude in Minnesota, so white people start pillaging a black city in Georgia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 10:27:46 AM
It's not that surprising. A lot of the looting and vandalism has been started by white people. "Just wanting to break shit" is among the least nefarious motives ascribed to them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 10:31:17 AM
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500414-minnesota-officials-believe-white-supremacists-attending-demonstrations#.XtUXMs6FcJc.twitter

QuoteMinnesota officials believe white supremacists attending demonstrations in Twin Cities, official says

Minnesota officials have identified white nationalist groups operating on the ground amid the protests in Minneapolis and St. Paul over the police killing of George Floyd, the state's Department of Corrections said late Sunday.

State Corrections Commissioner Paul Schnell told reporters at a press conference that recruiting materials in the form of posters had been located by officials in the Twin Cities, adding that his office is investigating as-yet unsubstantiated claims that antifa-aligned groups were active in the cities as well, according to local news affiliate KTTC.

"They're agitators," Schnell said of the groups, according to CNN. A request for further comment from the Minnesota Department of Corrections was not immediately returned.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz (D) pointed to the alleged presence of the groups as a reason for his decision to extend an 8 p.m. curfew in the two cities, writing in a tweet Sunday evening: "We have reason to believe that bad actors continue to infiltrate the rightful protests of George Floyd's murder, which is why we are extending the curfew by one day."

Dozens of protesters were arrested in downtown Minneapolis Sunday evening due to curfew violations, while demonstrations continued in cities across the country as well.

Video of Floyd's death posted online by a bystander shows a now-fired officer, Derek Chauvin, placing his knee on Floyd's neck for several minutes while Floyd, who is black, was handcuffed and saying he could not breathe.

Chauvin was fired, along with three other officers, and has since been charged with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 01, 2020, 10:32:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 31, 2020, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2020, 07:02:28 PM
The real problem is how to arrest all the looters and rioters, and successfully prosecute them. 

Well if we just stop murdering our citizens, and if we do we appropriately handle the fallout, there would be no protests for the looter and rioters to take advantage of. That is actually the real problem.

Careful, Valmy. That's crossing some line that will make grumbler see you as ... something... I dunno what. But I'm sure it's awful... ish.

Quote
It just boggles the mind. The Minneapolis Police Department knew exactly what they would trigger if they did not handle this carefully. Instead they were just like: well fuck you every other police department in the United States. Have fun.

Because there is impunity for police in general, but especially the moment someone crosses some line that makes some white people angry/upset/disappointed. Or worse, costs them money.

I mean, four officers killed a man in broad daylight knowing they were being filmed. Nothing covering their faces, nothing hiding who they were. And they did that because they truly believed that they were in the right to do so. During "riots", there is literally nothing to stop them. NOTHING. Covered faces, an excuse of trying to protect businesses, a mob of cops around them doing the exact same thing.

But how dare POC be angry and act out. How dare they.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 01, 2020, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 01, 2020, 10:23:51 AM
Don't discount that a big portion of the protesters acting violently really just want to break shit.

A rough majority of the city I live in is black, the mayor is black, a majority of the police force is black, both the district attorneys from the two counties covering the city are black. But the nearest mall to me has been ransacked as have a bunch of the stores in the area. There are pictures of the crowds breaking into businesses into some of the nicer parts of town, and some of them are just groups of white people.

Which is a fascinating dynamic--a white cop kills a black dude in Minnesota, so white people start pillaging a black city in Georgia.

Oh yeah they are using the protests as cover. Sickening shit. What is wrong with our country?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 01, 2020, 11:07:44 AM
Proud Boys have been breaking windows and looting in Portland. They're on tape doing so.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 01, 2020, 11:07:44 AM
Proud Boys have been breaking windows and looting in Portland. They're on tape doing so.

Can't be. Republicans say it's only Antifa and other left wing agitators causing trouble.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 11:16:16 AM
Quote from: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 10:23:13 AM
Huh. I argued this 5 or 6 years ago on this forum and it was argued by others -- with some justification, I thought -- that veterans were among the most professional of cops, with lower shooting rates than non-veterans with similar roles. It would be interesting to see the data on this.

There are a couple of things that make this comparison difficult:
1.  there's a big difference between former soldiers who were MPs or Civil Affairs types and those were were combat forces, because the former are all about policing at the lowest level of violence that will accomplish the mission, while the latter are all about overwhelming force and shock and awe.
2.  There is going to be a difference between veterans of COIN operations like Afghanistan and Iraq, and those who are veterans of earlier wars.  Earlier wars had more combat time followed by stand-down time, while COIN ops had much longer periods of stress without the relief of going to a rear area.

Like you, though, I'd like to see some data.  But the data should also include the influence of veterans and their war stories on non-veterans.

Seeing texts where cops are talking about how much fun it is to go rogue reminds me a lot of texts introduced as evidence in several war crimes courts-martial.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 10:27:46 AM
It's not that surprising. A lot of the looting and vandalism has been started by white people. "Just wanting to break shit" is among the least nefarious motives ascribed to them.

Wanting to break shit is not, according to Meri, a bad thing.  As long as it is insured, of course.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 11:48:46 AM
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/politics/donald-trump-race-police/index.html

QuoteAn agitated Trump encourages governors to use aggressive tactics on protesters

(CNN)President Donald Trump, agitated and distressed after three nights of violent protests in dozens of cities across the country, including outside of his home, told the nation's governors in a video teleconference Monday to aggressively target violent protesters he said would only respond to a show of force.

"You have to dominate or you'll look like a bunch of jerks, you have to arrest and try people," the President told the governors in a call from the basement White House Situation Room, according to an audio recording of the call obtained by CNN.

In the conversation -- which drew a rebuke from Illinois's Democratic governor on the call -- Trump appeared angry and chastised what he characterized as a weak response to protests in certain places, which he said allowed violence to take hold. Trump emphasized his belief the violence is being fomented by forces from the "radical left."

And he suggested to governors it was their responsibility, not his, to tamp down harshly on the continued unrest.

"It's a movement, if you don't put it down it will get worse and worse," Trump said. "The only time its successful is when you're weak and most of you are weak."

In admonishing the governors for not doing more to quell the violence, which raged again on Sunday night, Trump was reverting to a hardline "law and order" mantle he believes is the best way to confront growing racial unrest across the nation.

Trump said the "whole world was laughing at Minneapolis over the police station getting burned," referring to the city where protests began last week after the death of an unarmed black man who was being taken into police custody.

On the phone call, Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker told Trump the nation was craving a steady hand from the top.

"Rhetoric coming out of the White House is making it worse, people are experiencing real pain," Pritzker, a Democrat, told the President. "We've got to have national leadership calling for calm and legitimate concern for protestors."

"I don't like your rhetoric that much either," Trump fired back. "You could have done much better on coronavirus."


The message to governors came as Trump and his advisers were continuing to debate the wisdom of a national address following the protests, one of which outside the White House caused him and his family to retreat to an underground bunker on Friday night.

Along with the phone call to governors -- which also included law enforcement and national security officials -- aides were beginning outreach to black leaders to gauge interest and availability for a "listening session" later this week, which some of Trump's advisers believe is necessary before delivering any formal address to the nation.

During his time in office, Trump has hired only a few black senior aides. His Cabinet is mostly white, with Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson the only black member. In recent months Surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams, who is also black, has taken on a more prominent role during the coronavirus pandemic.

Inside the West Wing, Ja'Ron Smith is a high-ranking African American senior adviser and has been engaged in discussions with other aides over how to best address the situation.
"This is one tough, smart cookie," Trump said of Smith during a roundtable with African American leaders last month in Michigan.

Trump has sought to make inroads with African American voters in recent months, suggesting -- as he did in the 2016 election -- that they have nothing to lose in supporting him. But he has not focused intently on issues of police brutality or institutional racism during the first three and half years of his presidency.

While he championed a criminal justice reform effort spearheaded by his son-in-law Jared Kushner, he has also maintained the "law and order" mantle he believes helped propel him to the White House and has worked to roll back Obama-era initiatives meant to demilitarize local police departments.

If there was any question on which side Trump was landing after three nights of sometimes-violent protests -- including outside the gates of a highly fortified White House -- his phone call with governors cemented the impression he is focused on advancing a law and order message.

"Two nights ago people would not have minded an occupying force," he said.

The President has not been seen in public since traveling to Florida on Saturday and his schedule did not include any public appearances Monday.

Aides were still deliberating how and whether Trump should come out and address some of the worst unrest in decades.

Trump's 11 a.m. ET video teleconference was an indication he is focused for now on law-and-order issues amid the nationwide violence, not necessarily the underlying issues of racism and police brutality that initially sparked the protests. His tweets and retweets have centered on going after the anarchist Antifa group and quelling violence, sometimes using a militaristic tone.

Inside the White House, advisers remain divided over whether a speech delivered from the Oval Office or elsewhere at the White House would help lower the national temperature. It did not seem such a speech was imminent on Monday morning.

"A national Oval Office address is not going to stop Antifa," White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany said in an appearance Monday on Fox News, noting that Trump had addressed the killing of George Floyd -- a black Minneapolis man who died after a white police officer knelt on his neck during an arrest -- several times already.

"The President has addressed this repeatedly," she said. Later, McEnany said Trump's "focus right now is acting and keeping our streets safe."


Still, some inside the White House also believe Trump should hear from members of the black community to better understand the issues and to help generate ideas for how to move forward.

It's not clear when or if such a listening session will materialize but some aides believe it will be necessary -- along with Trump's other efforts to hear from law enforcement and governors -- before delivering any kind of national address.

Trump has spoken with Floyd's family members, he announced late last week. But according to Floyd's brother, the conversation did not feature a great amount of listening by the President.

"It was very brief," Philonise Floyd told CNN on Sunday night. "The conversation was OK with him. I was just respecting him, listening to what he had to say. I understood what he was saying, but it was just a brief conversation."


Speaking during a live interview with Politico on Monday morning, one of Trump's senior aides said White House officials were still weighing their options on best addressing the situation.

"We were working through a list of solutions and possibilities -- bipartisan -- how do we come together, how do we use this as a unifying force for this country," said domestic policy adviser Brooke Rollins.

Asked whether the President will engage with members of the black community, Rollins said: "Everything's on the table."

"I think, ultimately, he believes, and rightfully so, that he is in a constant narrative and conversation with his citizens, those that voted for him and those that didn't, and those that believe in his policies and those that may not," Rollins said.


Ahead of his teleconference on Monday, the President was live tweeting cable news, quoting a Fox News host Brian Kilmeade, who blamed Antifa for unrest.

He also quoted a Newt Gingrich appearance on Fox News criticizing 13 Joe Biden staffers for donating money to bail out protesters in Minneapolis.

The tweets came one day after Trump declared the US would designate Antifa as a terrorist organization, even though the US government has no existing legal authority to label a wholly domestic group in the manner it currently designates foreign terrorist organizations.

Law enforcement and federal officials say outside elements from both far-right and far-left groups are helping fuel the violent and damaging confrontations that have marred protests across the country in recent days, despite Trump's focus just on Antifa and the far left.

Although interference may be happening, federal and local officials have yet to provide evidence to the public.


'Asked whether the President will engage with members of the black community, Rollins said: "Everything's on the table."'
=> Wow, he's making it sound like it's an extreme measure. "We're not even ruling out to ... engage ... with them black folks."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 11:53:11 AM
This is a very understatedly savage line:
QuoteBut according to Floyd's brother, the conversation did not feature a great amount of listening by the President.

"It was very brief," Philonise Floyd told CNN on Sunday night. "The conversation was OK with him. I was just respecting him, listening to what he had to say. I understood what he was saying, but it was just a brief conversation."

Also that "listening session" will be a fucking disaster.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 11:55:03 AM
Philonise said elsewhere that he didn't really have a chance to say anything himself during the call (I'm not calling it a conversation).

I wonder if any of the governors will feel emboldened by Trump's "BE TUFF" rant. Feels like Georgia and Florida would be natural candidates?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 01, 2020, 11:55:30 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 11:53:11 AM
This is a very understatedly savage line:

Understated works well in British journalism, because it echoes a culture that embraces understatement.

It's a plague in American journalism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 11:16:16 AM
There are a couple of things that make this comparison difficult:
1.  there's a big difference between former soldiers who were MPs or Civil Affairs types and those were were combat forces, because the former are all about policing at the lowest level of violence that will accomplish the mission, while the latter are all about overwhelming force and shock and awe.
2.  There is going to be a difference between veterans of COIN operations like Afghanistan and Iraq, and those who are veterans of earlier wars.  Earlier wars had more combat time followed by stand-down time, while COIN ops had much longer periods of stress without the relief of going to a rear area.

Like you, though, I'd like to see some data.  But the data should also include the influence of veterans and their war stories on non-veterans.

Seeing texts where cops are talking about how much fun it is to go rogue reminds me a lot of texts introduced as evidence in several war crimes courts-martial.
I was arguing from the COIN angle as well, but it's possible the others were not. I have difficulty being understood sometimes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:16:08 PM
Further to Senator Cotton's post:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5fPSdZY/101.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 01, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
Regarding training.  There is an organization located in Minnesota which draws upon international expertise (and international instructors) to train police and others in use of force.  Obviously it is not just about the training.

https://www.forcescience.org/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 02:39:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZcomNyXkAIRJ3D?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 02:40:20 PM
Ineptly? Sure I guess.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 02:54:05 PM
An independent autopsy found that George Floyd died of asphyxia, contradicting the county medical examiner, who had ruled that police brutality is a preexisting condition.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 03:10:07 PM
"Us" vs "them"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZclCIdWoAETV5z?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 03:18:32 PM
I think we wouldn't have this problem if police officers really were completely alone.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2020, 03:20:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 02:40:20 PM
Ineptly? Sure I guess.

No silly.

He means get the Kurds to fight Antifa, and then betray said Kurds when Erdogan complains.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 03:21:05 PM
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/01/secdef-encourages-governors-to-dominate-the-battlespace-to-put-down-nationwide-protests/

QuoteSECDEF encourages governors to "dominate the battlespace" to put down nationwide protests

Defense Secretary Mark Esper compared protests in cities across the country over the weekend to "battlespace" in a White House call with governors on Monday, urging leaders overwhelm protestors to restore the peace.

More than 17,000 troops in 24 National Guard jurisdictions, at the direction of their governors, are responding to civil unrest in states from California to Pennsylvania following a weekend of police standoffs with protestors as demonstrations escalated to looting and deployment of tear gas and rubber bullets to control crowds.

"I think the sooner that you mass and dominate the battlespace, the quicker this dissipates and we can get back to the right normal," Esper said during the call, according to a recording leaked to the New York Times.

Esper's comments came after multiple tweets from President Donald Trump throughout the weekend urging "the military" to get involved in riot response, though so far, that has only meant Guard troops mobilized in a state status.

Trump also said Monday that he had put Joint Chiefs Chairman Army Gen. Mark Milley "in charge," but did not specify in what capacity. Milley was on the call, but did not engage.

Spokespeople for Milley did not respond to requests for comment on Monday.

"The president says he wants to dominate the streets with National Guard, with a police presence," Kayleigh McEnany, White House press secretary, told reporters in a briefing Monday, clarifying Trump's comments on use of the military. "What studies have shown — as Gen. Milley noted, he was in that governors' call — his points pertain to the National Guard. He noted that there are several studies that indicate when there is an overwhelming National Guard presence, it actually de-escalates the situation and causes less civil unrest."

She also characterized Milley's role as more of an advisory one, in line with his job description as the senior-most military adviser to the defense secretary and Trump.

"So Gen. Milley has really been on point talking about the National Guard, the effectiveness, and making sure they are utilized to great effect across the country," McEnany said.

Trump lamented the amount of time it takes to activate units, suggesting that governors send in more troops.

"I don't know what it is politically where you don't want to call out people," he said. "They're ready, willing and able. They want to fight for the country. I know don't what it is. Someday you'll have to explain it to me. But it takes so long to call them up."

He went on to name Los Angeles, specifically.

"We're shocked that you're not using the greatest resource you can use. And they're trained for this stuff and they're incredible," he added. "Why you're not calling them up? I don't know but you're making a mistake because you're making yourself look like ― look like fools."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 03:23:55 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2020, 03:20:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2020, 02:40:20 PM
Ineptly? Sure I guess.

No silly.

He means get the Kurds to fight Antifa, and then betray said Kurds when Erdogan complains.

Gotcha. :blush:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 03:26:51 PM
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.mediapost.com/dam/cropped/2020/04/23/sesame-street-elmos-playdate-thursday-tv-blog-photo-4-23-20_6Uztwfs.png)
And today's word is "dominate".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
It's nuts watching the Trump cabinet trying to out-stupid each other to impress Idiot Prime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 01, 2020, 03:42:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
It's nuts watching the Trump cabinet trying to out-stupid each other to impress Idiot Prime.

Are you referring to the picture in Sheilbh's post ?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 01, 2020, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 03:10:07 PM
"Us" vs "them"

So the police are not accountable to any elected official? They have no democratic mandate? No accountability to anybody but God? I don't understand their point here. I guess I thought they were public servants of their local communities not some unelected and unaccountable paramilitary force pursuing their own interests. I don't even understand the concept of a police force declaring themselves independent of the elected government like this. "We have been left alone to do our own thing" Um...no? You are not empowered to do that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on June 01, 2020, 06:12:45 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 10:27:46 AM
It's not that surprising. A lot of the looting and vandalism has been started by white people. "Just wanting to break shit" is among the least nefarious motives ascribed to them.

Yes, most antifa are white.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on June 01, 2020, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 01, 2020, 11:07:44 AM
Proud Boys have been breaking windows and looting in Portland. They're on tape doing so.

Where is this tape?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 06:34:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2020, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 03:10:07 PM
"Us" vs "them"

So the police are not accountable to any elected official? They have no democratic mandate? No accountability to anybody but God? I don't understand their point here. I guess I thought they were public servants of their local communities not some unelected and unaccountable paramilitary force pursuing their own interests. I don't even understand the concept of a police force declaring themselves independent of the elected government like this. "We have been left alone to do our own thing" Um...no? You are not empowered to do that?
Just seen this re your comments and DG's:
QuoteLouisville Mayor Greg Fischer just announced every single officers' body camera was NOT ACTIVATED during the shooting last night that resulted in DavidMcAtee's death. Not one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 01, 2020, 06:12:45 PM

Yes, most antifa are white.
So are most dentists!  :o
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 01, 2020, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 01, 2020, 06:12:45 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 10:27:46 AM

Yes, most antifa are white.
So are most dentists!  :o
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2020, 07:10:55 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2020, 07:03:23 PM
Sue me. I was on my phone.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 01, 2020, 07:13:52 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 01, 2020, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 01, 2020, 11:07:44 AM
Proud Boys have been breaking windows and looting in Portland. They're on tape doing so.

Where is this tape?


Why?  Afraid you might be on it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 07:19:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 06:34:06 PM
Just seen this re your comments and DG's:
QuoteLouisville Mayor Greg Fischer just announced every single officers' body camera was NOT ACTIVATED during the shooting last night that resulted in DavidMcAtee's death. Not one.

I am sure the lawtalkers can explain the theory about something like "adverse implications" where someone's failure to do something can be assumed by the jury to be implying guilt. 

That's what should apply here.  At the very east, any officer whose body camera is not activated in an interaction with the public should be fired and blackballed from any further law enforcement employment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 01, 2020, 07:55:36 PM
Well, this is all pretty horrible. Broadly agree with what everyone else is saying; police reform urgently, de-militarize, try and understand the impact of hiring veterans of endless foreign wars and if necessary put a stop to it, introduce robust accountability at some federal level and so on.

The US police forces, the vast majority of them look like we lost a war with a foreign power that has deployed it's ill disciplined infantry to our cities. Trampling people with horses, running them over with cars, beating them , firing baton rounds at their heads and shooting them dead (off camera). Staggering.

Trump is going full Caligula, big Tiananmen  energy from the Donald. Republicans still loving it, but I'm wondering if some of them aren't begining to get a bit concerned.

I got caught up in a protest on Saturday, my work is downtown, so a big demonstration in the surrounding streets. Seemed orderly, regular looking people, encouraging number of white people. Counted a couple of sketchy looking white-vegan-skateboarder-need-a-shower types, but nothing else too threatening. It all kicked off with plenty of loud booms and big clouds of teargas. Closed our place and GTFO. Got stuck at an intersection that was blocked by about a hundred people for a few minutes, which was a bit concerning, but we were out and on the freeway shortly after.

Posted "Black Lives Matter" on my facebook page and was treated to about 50 comments of argument between an old acquantance in the UK, a passionate brexiteer who quickly responded with "All Lives matter" , and a number of my black american colleagues, who said brexiteer then told were racists for trying politely to disagree with his position. Surreal.

Sheilbh is right, The Republicans have abandoned "Black Lives Matter Thugs" and have switched to their anti-fa wank fantasy. That's a small piece of progress.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 08:32:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 07:19:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2020, 06:34:06 PM
Just seen this re your comments and DG's:
QuoteLouisville Mayor Greg Fischer just announced every single officers' body camera was NOT ACTIVATED during the shooting last night that resulted in DavidMcAtee's death. Not one.

I am sure the lawtalkers can explain the theory about something like "adverse implications" where someone's failure to do something can be assumed by the jury to be implying guilt. 

That's what should apply here.  At the very east, any officer whose body camera is not activated in an interaction with the public should be fired and blackballed from any further law enforcement employment.

Should be, but all to often aren't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 08:38:19 PM
Good summary of Trump's address to the nation:
(https://i.imgur.com/UXZbGjV.png) (https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1267599746455175168)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2020, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2020, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 01, 2020, 10:23:51 AM
Don't discount that a big portion of the protesters acting violently really just want to break shit.

A rough majority of the city I live in is black, the mayor is black, a majority of the police force is black, both the district attorneys from the two counties covering the city are black. But the nearest mall to me has been ransacked as have a bunch of the stores in the area. There are pictures of the crowds breaking into businesses into some of the nicer parts of town, and some of them are just groups of white people.

Which is a fascinating dynamic--a white cop kills a black dude in Minnesota, so white people start pillaging a black city in Georgia.

Oh yeah they are using the protests as cover. Sickening shit. What is wrong with our country?

Over 100k dead from a pandemic that could have been greatly mitigated. 20-25% unemployment. Tons of those folks are going to be homeless in the coming months and they know it. A lot of them now have no health insurance. Many of them never had it once leaving their parents. They have nothing to lose, and they feel done wrong by society. Is it in any way surprising that a nation in which that happens has rioting? And that's not even touching on the issues of police brutality and political polarization.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2020, 09:32:29 PM
Curfew in Coralville IA, city jammed right next to IC.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2020, 09:45:20 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 01, 2020, 08:38:19 PM
Good summary of Trump's address to the nation:
(https://i.imgur.com/UXZbGjV.png) (https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1267599746455175168)
Man, I wish I'd written that!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2020, 09:58:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZBZ_hwUobw

Houston chief of police tells Trump to keep his mouth shut.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 10:08:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2020, 09:32:29 PM
Curfew in Coralville IA, city jammed right next to IC.
Curfew in NYC as well.  Got a loud ass emergency alert on my phone just to make sure I was informed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 01, 2020, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2020, 09:58:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZBZ_hwUobw

Houston chief of police tells Trump to keep his mouth shut.

He won't get any federal aid.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 01, 2020, 10:16:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 10:08:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2020, 09:32:29 PM
Curfew in Coralville IA, city jammed right next to IC.
Curfew in NYC as well.  Got a loud ass emergency alert on my phone just to make sure I was informed.

Don't worry, I am sure the armed protesters who complained about lockdown will take it to the streets against this decision.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 01, 2020, 10:38:12 PM
So, the 1807 Insurrection Act that Trump drooled about, what does that entail? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2020, 10:39:04 PM
Arlington is pulling its police from DC, effective immediately due to Trump tear gassing that peaceful protest so he could get a photo op at that church.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/arlington-county-pulls-police-dc-after-trump-churc/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 01, 2020, 10:16:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 10:08:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2020, 09:32:29 PM
Curfew in Coralville IA, city jammed right next to IC.
Curfew in NYC as well.  Got a loud ass emergency alert on my phone just to make sure I was informed.

Don't worry, I am sure the armed protesters who complained about lockdown will take it to the streets against this decision.
That wouldn't be a bad thing, if there were any chance of NYPD enforcing laws against white people supporting them.  Brandishing guns in NYC is a mandatory jail time offense, or at least used to be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2020, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 10:38:12 PM
So, the 1807 Insurrection Act that Trump drooled about, what does that entail? :unsure:

It will screw over anyone with property insurance, because acts of war are excluded and that includes insurrection.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 01, 2020, 11:01:32 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2020, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 01, 2020, 10:38:12 PM
So, the 1807 Insurrection Act that Trump drooled about, what does that entail? :unsure:

It will screw over anyone with property insurance, because acts of war are excluded and that includes insurrection.
Insurrection is excluded, but civil disorder is not.  I don't think invoking the act itself makes the riots an insurrection, I imagine that it would require a lot more than that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 12:19:05 AM
Btw, I think that even without the looting and arson we would see a very similar response. If it's not about looting a Target or burning a police station, it would be blocking of roads or being a public nuisance, like a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 12:40:06 AM
The White House released a video with dramatic music showing Trump go to the church:

https://twitter.com/JesseCox/status/1267691419000467457?s=20

Totally worth tear gassing protesters and shooting them with rubber bullets to clear the way.


https://twitter.com/jackmjenkins/status/1267664350522810368?s=20
QuoteJack Jenkins
@jackmjenkins

Just spoke with Rev. Gerbasi.

She told me that law enforcement with shields forced priests, others *off the church patio,* meaning they stepped on church property to expel people from it.

As she put it: "They turned holy ground into a battle ground."

Story coming.

DC bishop is also pissed: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/politics/cnntv-bishop-trump-photo-op/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 01:50:53 AM
QuoteAs she put it: "They turned holy ground into a battle ground."

:rolleyes: They were dominating the battlespace.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 01:57:42 AM
I just watched a couple of hours of videos from the Russian blogger walking around in the thick of the action the last two nights, rather bravely.  The first night was mostly a violent clash with police and their cars.  In the first night he feared getting hit by an object thrown at police, and then he feared being targeted by police getting out of control. 

On the second night it was anarchy and chaos on the streets, and he feared being targeted for recording people aggressively looting every shop they came across, as police has clearly abandoned most streets, choosing to concentrate in overwhelming force in the select few.  He regularly visits the sketchiest NYC neighborhoods for his blogging, so he's not a wimp. 

This is just an orgy of violence now, and no matter how much protesters are justified in making their point with a bit of violence, because obviously non-violence isn't getting anything done, what was happening last night in NYC wasn't it.  It was anarchy for the sake of it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 02:09:13 AM
Interesting when you put that side by side with Cuomo's statements on the situation in NYC.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 02:22:36 AM
Is it even possible to get an objective picture of what's happening? I'm sure it's easy to pick shots of violence from both sides as well as police and protesters showing solidarity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:35:26 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 02, 2020, 02:22:36 AM
Is it even possible to get an objective picture of what's happening? I'm sure it's easy to pick shots of violence from both sides as well as police and protesters showing solidarity.
Probably pretty hard to do it algorithmically.  At some point you just have to take a leap of faith and decide who you trust to at least try to get the story right.  You may get your judgment wrong, because you may start off biased, or your trusted sources may let you down.  However, the alternative is to shrug your shoulders, declare truth to be unknown and unknowable, and believe what you want to believe. 

I followed that blogger for more than five years, and I trust him to be a very reasonable fellow, as well as have enough street smarts to know where the story will unfold before it does.  He saw three cop cars torched live the first night, and he witnessed a car accident right in front of him (and almost involving him) as the looters in a brand new Mercedes tried to escape the police roadblock.  Hard to cherrypick such things before they even happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 02:53:12 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:35:26 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 02, 2020, 02:22:36 AM
Is it even possible to get an objective picture of what's happening? I'm sure it's easy to pick shots of violence from both sides as well as police and protesters showing solidarity.
Probably pretty hard to do it algorithmically.  At some point you just have to take a leap of faith and decide who you trust to at least try to get the story right.  You may get your judgment wrong, because you may start off biased, or your trusted sources may let you down.  However, the alternative is to shrug your shoulders, declare truth to be unknown and unknowable, and believe what you want to believe. 

I followed that blogger for more than five years, and I trust him to be a very reasonable fellow, as well as have enough street smarts to know where the story will unfold before it does.  He saw three cop cars torched live the first night, and he witnessed a car accident right in front of him (and almost involving him) as the looters in a brand new Mercedes tried to escape the police roadblock.  Hard to cherrypick such things before they even happen.

The upper classes are joining in?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:00:57 AM
I think it is quite clear with anarchy the scum will let loose. And being a scum is not genetic so you'll find all skin colours among them.

I think it should be possible to side with the original reason of the protests while condemning rampant looting and rioting. I quite believe the stories of far-right groups stoking this fire as well, this is exactly what they want to see I think. Every day this goes on is one more nail in the coffin of resolving the issues that triggered the protests in the first place. And every day this goes on make the installation of the fascist police state they yearn for more likely.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 03:27:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 02, 2020, 02:22:36 AM
Is it even possible to get an objective picture of what's happening? I'm sure it's easy to pick shots of violence from both sides as well as police and protesters showing solidarity.

Seen some social media reports that those photo-ops of police showing solidarity were just that, photo-ops, and they turned around and gassed the protesters right after.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:37:29 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 03:27:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 02, 2020, 02:22:36 AM
Is it even possible to get an objective picture of what's happening? I'm sure it's easy to pick shots of violence from both sides as well as police and protesters showing solidarity.

Seen some social media reports that those photo-ops of police showing solidarity were just that, photo-ops, and they turned around and gassed the protesters right after.

It's on social media so it surely is not hyperbole.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 04:05:45 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZftT0pWoAEwY0r?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 04:12:47 AM
https://twitter.com/AircraftSpots/status/1267674928729358336
QuoteTonight, multiple C-130J and C-17A cargo aircraft from Fort Riley, Fort Drum, and Fort Bragg are arriving into Andrews AFB. (
@AP
reporting 82nd Airborne Division activated) 10th Mountain Division & 1st Infantry Division which were on standby, also appear to be activated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 04:18:00 AM
Four St. Louis police officers struck by gunfire.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/2020-06-01-nationwide-protests-over-george-floyd-death-live-n1220761/ncrd1221826#liveBlogHeader

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 04:23:39 AM
A truck plowed into a group of protesters blocking I-244 in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Injuries were reported as a result of the incident.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1267738744544727040
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 04:53:21 AM
Officer shot in the head in Las Vegas

https://twitter.com/orko_manna/status/1267731603570089985
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:06:23 AM
I think it is time now for the protesters to stop. At this stage, without clear aims of what they want to achieve, they will just become human shield for the looters, and it's not like that human shield is going to slow the police or the national guard down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:06:23 AM
I think it is time now for the protesters to stop. At this stage, without clear aims of what they want to achieve, they will just become human shield for the looters, and it's not like that human shield is going to slow the police or the national guard down.

:wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:56:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:06:23 AM
I think it is time now for the protesters to stop. At this stage, without clear aims of what they want to achieve, they will just become human shield for the looters, and it's not like that human shield is going to slow the police or the national guard down.
Satyagraha is the aim, no? Despite all the moaning about MLK the thing I've found really striking about a lot of the videos I've seen is how MLK/Gandhian they are. BLM protesters on the knees with their arms up still, or kneeling in front of someone still receiving violence. It's the Gandhi line "passive resistance is a means of securing rights by personal suffering" or self-sacrifice to obtain rights.

Otherwise, to flip your point around, the police face pressure and protests (and it needs to go wider than just the police - see the two coroners' opinion about Floyd's cause of death) after a wrongful killing. All they need to end the protests is for enough violence to occur. That's a perverse incentive for a police force. Either it encourages them to allow violence or to ramp it up themselves - if they can provoke a riot then the conversation can move on and the protests should wind down? Whereas if your goal is passive resistance then in a weird way it's arguably when the authorities are most under pressure and lashing out that you're best able to reveal them (at the cost of personal sacrifice)?

I'm also seeing plenty of BLM protesters and leaders trying to stop the violence - I've seen them forming human chains around businesses and lone policement to protect them. As far as I'm concerned that's the extent of their sort-of responsibility for this. Don't use violence yourself and encourage others not to, fully aware that this could lead to self-sacrifice but continue to protest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 06:31:25 AM
Police forcing an object into a protester's hand: https://twitter.com/BrutumF/status/1267575655509577728?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:56:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:06:23 AM
I think it is time now for the protesters to stop. At this stage, without clear aims of what they want to achieve, they will just become human shield for the looters, and it's not like that human shield is going to slow the police or the national guard down.
Satyagraha is the aim, no? Despite all the moaning about MLK the thing I've found really striking about a lot of the videos I've seen is how MLK/Gandhian they are. BLM protesters on the knees with their arms up still, or kneeling in front of someone still receiving violence. It's the Gandhi line "passive resistance is a means of securing rights by personal suffering" or self-sacrifice to obtain rights.

Otherwise, to flip your point around, the police face pressure and protests (and it needs to go wider than just the police - see the two coroners' opinion about Floyd's cause of death) after a wrongful killing. All they need to end the protests is for enough violence to occur. That's a perverse incentive for a police force. Either it encourages them to allow violence or to ramp it up themselves - if they can provoke a riot then the conversation can move on and the protests should wind down? Whereas if your goal is passive resistance then in a weird way it's arguably when the authorities are most under pressure and lashing out that you're best able to reveal them (at the cost of personal sacrifice)?

I'm also seeing plenty of BLM protesters and leaders trying to stop the violence - I've seen them forming human chains around businesses and lone policement to protect them. As far as I'm concerned that's the extent of their sort-of responsibility for this. Don't use violence yourself and encourage others not to, fully aware that this could lead to self-sacrifice but continue to protest.

What I mean is, this thing cannot stay at the stage it is at right now. There must be some clear, achievable goals set for the protests, or they should be stopped/paused.

Gandhi and MLK had such clear goals with independence and legal reform. As it was discussed previously, the current issue with minority rights is not legal, but cultural - the law does not allow for discrimination anymore, but it is simply being ignored on many many levels. And that is not an overnight change to undo.

So either the protests must escalate to overthrow the system of government so that a system which enforces such laws get put in place, or they should be stopped before they become counterproductive.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:04:06 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:56:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:06:23 AM
I think it is time now for the protesters to stop. At this stage, without clear aims of what they want to achieve, they will just become human shield for the looters, and it's not like that human shield is going to slow the police or the national guard down.
Satyagraha is the aim, no? Despite all the moaning about MLK the thing I've found really striking about a lot of the videos I've seen is how MLK/Gandhian they are. BLM protesters on the knees with their arms up still, or kneeling in front of someone still receiving violence. It's the Gandhi line "passive resistance is a means of securing rights by personal suffering" or self-sacrifice to obtain rights.

Otherwise, to flip your point around, the police face pressure and protests (and it needs to go wider than just the police - see the two coroners' opinion about Floyd's cause of death) after a wrongful killing. All they need to end the protests is for enough violence to occur. That's a perverse incentive for a police force. Either it encourages them to allow violence or to ramp it up themselves - if they can provoke a riot then the conversation can move on and the protests should wind down? Whereas if your goal is passive resistance then in a weird way it's arguably when the authorities are most under pressure and lashing out that you're best able to reveal them (at the cost of personal sacrifice)?

I'm also seeing plenty of BLM protesters and leaders trying to stop the violence - I've seen them forming human chains around businesses and lone policement to protect them. As far as I'm concerned that's the extent of their sort-of responsibility for this. Don't use violence yourself and encourage others not to, fully aware that this could lead to self-sacrifice but continue to protest.

What I mean is, this thing cannot stay at the stage it is at right now. There must be some clear, achievable goals set for the protests, or they should be stopped/paused.

Gandhi and MLK had such clear goals with independence and legal reform. As it was discussed previously, the current issue with minority rights is not legal, but cultural - the law does not allow for discrimination anymore, but it is simply being ignored on many many levels. And that is not an overnight change to undo.

So either the protests must escalate to overthrow the system of government so that a system which enforces such laws get put in place, or they should be stopped before they become counterproductive.



So the solution is do nothing?

Btw, I'm feeling deja vu from when BLM first emerged...though they also quickly had a list of goals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
I am not sure what to do. But I think the present aimless protests that do nothing but serve as great soil for provocation and looters, will result in a reactionary victory, as usual.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:11:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
I am not sure what to do. But I think the present aimless protests that do nothing but serve as great soil for provocation and looters, will result in a reactionary victory, as usual.

That seems uncertain. What was the reactionary victory in light of protests post-Ferguson and Eric Garner in 2014?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 07:24:52 AM
I just realized: Trump went to the church, posed with the bible and left. No prayer, no scripture quote, just a photo op. WTF?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:28:38 AM
At the very least those supporting protesters would be well-served to pick their heroes carefully.  If you reflexively assume that anyone on the business end of police the last few days is a victim of hypocrisy when white guys could freely wave their guns around, you risk losing credibility.  You may be ascribing heroic political protests into the actions of senseless sociopathic mob violence that sprung up when police became otherwise occupied.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:11:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
I am not sure what to do. But I think the present aimless protests that do nothing but serve as great soil for provocation and looters, will result in a reactionary victory, as usual.

That seems uncertain. What was the reactionary victory in light of protests post-Ferguson and Eric Garner in 2014?
(https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/565/5c8/5e4627443c3abec9eb35dfaa7cf1c3e01c-trump-with-bible-dc-protests.rhorizontal.w700.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:36:49 AM
Also I think there were two points with Gandhi and MLK - that's why I mentioned satyagraha because that was Gandhi's theory of passive resistance in itself.

So it operates on two levels. There's the ends: Indian independence, civil rights. And then there is the means: passive resistance. The point of passive resistance is relatively simple - you invite the coercive power of the state to attack you because you resist a law or a social condition. Then you see who can live with that, you basically show the world the force of the state that lies beneath the rhetoric of a "democratic nation" or a "civilising empire" or whatever else. You provoke the force by putting your own body on the line to reveal the oppression. The purpose of Gandhi's protests was never really Indian independence it was to invite violence or brute force in his language and reveal the truth of Indian non-indepdendence - that it relied on violence whatever the imperialists say. By revealing that he can then make his political argument which is for Indian independence and turn the question back on itself as non-indepdendence is reliant on this violence and this force. The purpose of the protest and passive resistance is to reveal the truth and see if people are still comfortable once they're complicit and can't turn away.

And for Gandhi, and I think MLK, means and ends are profoundly linked because the means always contaminate the means. So if you use violence to achieve your end, that end will always be contaminated by violence. Same with my local heroes John Hume and Seamus Mallon of the Norther Irish civil rights movement - who never stopped their campaigning or protests because of actual terrorist campaigns. And it makes sense here too - it's difficult to end a system of violence through violence.

In the case of BLM, their goal is to stop the police killing black people, for the police to face consequences when they do and for the cover-ups - such as that first coroner's report - to stop. What better way to get change in that area than to protest non-violently which, in this situation, invites police power and reveals the truth of that power, the coercive fate of the state as experienced by the protesters and the people they're representing? As I say I think it's why I find the videos of, say the people on their knees with their hands up so extraordinary.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:46:11 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:11:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
I am not sure what to do. But I think the present aimless protests that do nothing but serve as great soil for provocation and looters, will result in a reactionary victory, as usual.

That seems uncertain. What was the reactionary victory in light of protests post-Ferguson and Eric Garner in 2014?
https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/565/5c8/5e4627443c3abec9eb35dfaa7cf1c3e01c-trump-with-bible-dc-protests.rhorizontal.w700.jpg

So the thesis is that unhappiness after Ferguson is what triggered Trump's election?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:55:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:46:11 AM
So the thesis is that unhappiness after Ferguson is what triggered Trump's election?
I'd say less unhappiness and more like fear.  Surely it helped him on the margins, which turned out to be razor thin.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:58:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:55:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:46:11 AM
So the thesis is that unhappiness after Ferguson is what triggered Trump's election?
I'd say less unhappiness and more like fear.  Surely it helped him on the margins, which turned out to be razor thin.

Was it that or was it the mere existence of Obama - i.e. having a black president for 8 years that freaked them out?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:58:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:55:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:46:11 AM
So the thesis is that unhappiness after Ferguson is what triggered Trump's election?
I'd say less unhappiness and more like fear.  Surely it helped him on the margins, which turned out to be razor thin.

Was it that or was it the mere existence of Obama - i.e. having a black president for 8 years that freaked them out?
Doesn't have to be one or the other.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 08:03:42 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:36:49 AM
Also I think there were two points with Gandhi and MLK - that's why I mentioned satyagraha because that was Gandhi's theory of passive resistance in itself.

So it operates on two levels. There's the ends: Indian independence, civil rights. And then there is the means: passive resistance. The point of passive resistance is relatively simple - you invite the coercive power of the state to attack you because you resist a law or a social condition. Then you see who can live with that, you basically show the world the force of the state that lies beneath the rhetoric of a "democratic nation" or a "civilising empire" or whatever else. You provoke the force by putting your own body on the line to reveal the oppression. The purpose of Gandhi's protests was never really Indian independence it was to invite violence or brute force in his language and reveal the truth of Indian non-indepdendence - that it relied on violence whatever the imperialists say. By revealing that he can then make his political argument which is for Indian independence and turn the question back on itself as non-indepdendence is reliant on this violence and this force. The purpose of the protest and passive resistance is to reveal the truth and see if people are still comfortable once they're complicit and can't turn away.

And for Gandhi, and I think MLK, means and ends are profoundly linked because the means always contaminate the means. So if you use violence to achieve your end, that end will always be contaminated by violence. Same with my local heroes John Hume and Seamus Mallon of the Norther Irish civil rights movement - who never stopped their campaigning or protests because of actual terrorist campaigns. And it makes sense here too - it's difficult to end a system of violence through violence.

In the case of BLM, their goal is to stop the police killing black people, for the police to face consequences when they do and for the cover-ups - such as that first coroner's report - to stop. What better way to get change in that area than to protest non-violently which, in this situation, invites police power and reveals the truth of that power, the coercive fate of the state as experienced by the protesters and the people they're representing? As I say I think it's why I find the videos of, say the people on their knees with their hands up so extraordinary.

I agree with this, but would note that Gandhi had another goal in employing non-violence:  he wanted to provide the Indian people with something that would unite them, and thus make independence not the result of the actions of the few who had the means to employ violence, but the result of the actions of the masses.  That would make the new country something unique.  I think he saw the results of the Creole-led violent independence movements in South America, which ended with Creole-dominated governments, and wanted to avoid that.

Gandhi's use of satyagraha in the respect was as important to him, I would argue, as technical independence. After all, India had a fair degree of self-government, but it was self-government by the Indian elites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 08:13:54 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:58:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:55:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 07:46:11 AM
So the thesis is that unhappiness after Ferguson is what triggered Trump's election?
I'd say less unhappiness and more like fear.  Surely it helped him on the margins, which turned out to be razor thin.

Was it that or was it the mere existence of Obama - i.e. having a black president for 8 years that freaked them out?
Doesn't have to be one or the other.

Sure which is why I think it is a mistake to suggest to protesters that if they continue to protest they'll just get the US another reactionary leader.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 08:03:42 AM
I agree with this, but would note that Gandhi had another goal in employing non-violence:  he wanted to provide the Indian people with something that would unite them, and thus make independence not the result of the actions of the few who had the means to employ violence, but the result of the actions of the masses.  That would make the new country something unique.  I think he saw the results of the Creole-led violent independence movements in South America, which ended with Creole-dominated governments, and wanted to avoid that.

Gandhi's use of satyagraha in the respect was as important to him, I would argue, as technical independence. After all, India had a fair degree of self-government, but it was self-government by the Indian elites.
That's a really good point. I think for him there was an element of force being a tool of the British state. And you could not create India out of British tools or using other pieces of the British apparatus - including possibly their legal system or Parliament. I think he felt that satyagraha was an authentically Indian way of achieving indepdence that would not contaminate the India afterwards - like as you say the examples in Latin America.

Obviously the Gandhian protest politics which is extraordinary, is then quite different from the Nehruvian state building which did incorporate bits of the "British" apparatus - and I think did manage to make them Indian in the process. Total aside if anyone knows a good book on Nehru, I'd love to know - he's always seemed a fascinating figure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 02, 2020, 09:10:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
I am not sure what to do. But I think the present aimless protests that do nothing but serve as great soil for provocation and looters, will result in a reactionary victory, as usual.

If the protests stop the day after Trump threatens military force and forcefully cleared peaceful protestors just to have a photo op, that will also be a reactionary victory.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 02, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
So all Trump has to do to win is threaten military force every day, have stupid photo ops, and wait for things to slow down? Because it seems like Trump will make stupid threats and take stupid pictures every day--that is kind of what he does.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 02, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 02, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
So all Trump has to do to win is threaten military force every day, have stupid photo ops, and wait for things to slow down? Because it seems like Trump will make stupid threats and take stupid pictures every day--that is kind of what he does.

:mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:36:49 AM

In the case of BLM, their goal is to stop the police killing black people, for the police to face consequences when they do and for the cover-ups - such as that first coroner's report - to stop. What better way to get change in that area than to protest non-violently which, in this situation, invites police power and reveals the truth of that power, the coercive fate of the state as experienced by the protesters and the people they're representing? As I say I think it's why I find the videos of, say the people on their knees with their hands up so extraordinary.

Yes. I think most Americans understand what the aim of the protests is, can anyone really say, honestly, that they don't understand the aims of the protesting? Police around the country are coming out of this looking terrible to many people, more terrible than they did before the protests started. It's no longer a strategy with traction to talk about "Black Lives Matter Thugs" for Republicans because of the way so many protestors have conducted themselves.

Yes, looting and destruction of property, attacks on police are bad and terrible. I wish they would stop, but theres no directing command and control sytem to make that happen. Especially not if one assumes they are the actions of agitators and criminals taking advantage of the protests rather than protestors themselves trying to end an injustice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
And to DGullers point that some well intentioned protests actions by people on the left are a gift to the right, yes I agree in some cases,( say for instance antifa vegans fist fighting alt righters for their own self aggrandizement creating a fantastic Republican boogey man),I don't think it's true in this case because the hardcore BLM's are doing a fantastic job of protesting, looking much better than the cops who are looking like a rabble.

I mean you can make the argument that we should not have elected a US President who was a black man because it energized Republican racists to an extraordinary extent and begat Trump.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 10:01:22 AM
Quote from: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
I mean you can make the argument that we should not have elected a US President who was a black man because it energized Republican racists to an extraordinary extent and begat Trump.

Indeed and in that way lies madness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 10:44:17 AM
I disagree that riots/unrest are a gift to the right, I don't know if it's clear. But it seems as likely to me that they will harm incumbents and, perhaps, especially "law and order" incumbents who are in charge while order collapses.

And, I have rarely thought Democrats are blessed with Biden, but Trump's tweets linking "sleepy Joe" with a hard-left anarchist plot are laughable. And like obviously laughable - it's not like "crooked Hilary". There is no-one alive who thinks that in Joe Biden secretly beats the heart of a steely eyed class war radical.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 02, 2020, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 10:44:17 AM
There is no-one alive who thinks that in Joe Biden secretly beats the heart of a steely eyed class war radical.

Sounds like you aren't on facebook.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 10:58:40 AM
There are tens of millions of people alive, at least in some sense, who will think whatever they are told to think, plausibility be damned.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 11:03:55 AM
And you'll never reach them. "Crooked" Hilary and that narrative is plausible enough that it works with all sorts - you know, people like me, people who dislike both candidates, people in the centre, people who don't care etc.

It is tough to pivot from "sleepy Joe" who is barely sentient, to who him being a hard-left anarchist sympathiser. It needs a base level of plausibility to cut-through beyond the true believers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 02, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:36:49 AM
Also I think there were two points with Gandhi and MLK - that's why I mentioned satyagraha because that was Gandhi's theory of passive resistance in itself.

So it operates on two levels. There's the ends: Indian independence, civil rights. And then there is the means: passive resistance. The point of passive resistance is relatively simple - you invite the coercive power of the state to attack you because you resist a law or a social condition. Then you see who can live with that, you basically show the world the force of the state that lies beneath the rhetoric of a "democratic nation" or a "civilising empire" or whatever else. You provoke the force by putting your own body on the line to reveal the oppression. The purpose of Gandhi's protests was never really Indian independence it was to invite violence or brute force in his language and reveal the truth of Indian non-indepdendence - that it relied on violence whatever the imperialists say. By revealing that he can then make his political argument which is for Indian independence and turn the question back on itself as non-indepdendence is reliant on this violence and this force. The purpose of the protest and passive resistance is to reveal the truth and see if people are still comfortable once they're complicit and can't turn away.

And for Gandhi, and I think MLK, means and ends are profoundly linked because the means always contaminate the means. So if you use violence to achieve your end, that end will always be contaminated by violence. Same with my local heroes John Hume and Seamus Mallon of the Norther Irish civil rights movement - who never stopped their campaigning or protests because of actual terrorist campaigns. And it makes sense here too - it's difficult to end a system of violence through violence.

In the case of BLM, their goal is to stop the police killing black people, for the police to face consequences when they do and for the cover-ups - such as that first coroner's report - to stop. What better way to get change in that area than to protest non-violently which, in this situation, invites police power and reveals the truth of that power, the coercive fate of the state as experienced by the protesters and the people they're representing? As I say I think it's why I find the videos of, say the people on their knees with their hands up so extraordinary.

Gonna need you to also talk about Thomas Hobbes before you finish your podcast review.  :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 11:03:55 AM
And you'll never reach them. "Crooked" Hilary and that narrative is plausible enough that it works with all sorts - you know, people like me, people who dislike both candidates, people in the centre, people who don't care etc.

It is tough to pivot from "sleepy Joe" who is barely sentient, to who him being a hard-left anarchist sympathiser. It needs a base level of plausibility to cut-through beyond the true believers.

Among the rational you are completely correct. I think about 60 million or so adult Americans voted for Trump, all Republicans obviously, and it's hard to put an exact number on it but the majority of them are inside an exclusively conservative media environment that has been engineered to deliver a certain narrative. A really significant portion of that number are locked into a counter factual mythological fantasy and can likely not be appealed to by any force.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 10:58:40 AM
There are tens of millions of people alive, at least in some sense, who will think whatever they are told to think, plausibility be damned.

I don't think even they actually believe the Joe Biden is some kind of anarchist conspirator, though they will lie and say they do in order to avoid standing out from the herd.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 11:23:28 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 02, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
Gonna need you to also talk about Thomas Hobbes before you finish your podcast review.  :D
:lol: As I say - literally any interesting opinion I have at the minute is from that podcast  :blush:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
I just read the story, in NY Post of all places, about protesters forming human chains to protect the local Target store against looters.  This sounds like a win-win tactic to adopt widely for them in so many dimensions:  they clearly separate themselves from the looters, they actually give themselves something to do besides goading cops with no end game, and maybe they'll win the PR war against cops that way who have seemed to largely hunker down and let looters do their thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 10:58:40 AM
There are tens of millions of people alive, at least in some sense, who will think whatever they are told to think, plausibility be damned.

I don't think even they actually believe the Joe Biden is some kind of anarchist conspirator, though they will lie and say they do in order to avoid standing out from the herd.
I guess there is no way to know for sure, but I personally gave up on the certainty of belief that there is some kind of a truth fundamental from which you can only deviate so much before the dissonance starts causing issues.  I think some people, upon entering a deep enough trance, can earnestly believe all sorts of contradictory ideas and rapidly switch between them without ever flirting with come-to-Jesus moment.  I could be wrong, I sure hope I am.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 11:55:43 AM
Remember the German reporter? Yeah, he had another run in with the police.

https://peertube.live/videos/watch/cc9fc643-428d-44ed-be6d-68567e2fee6a

"How can you give me an order when I have permission from your superior?" (He's referring to the governor)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 12:03:43 PM
He's absolutely right. I love the line and tone of "second night where we choose not to take an argument" :lol:

Edit: Incidentally just saw that the government of Australia has called for an investigation into violence by the police against Australian reporters in DC after the police attacked two Aussie reporters:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 12:15:05 PM
Also, Australian PM is calling for investigation of Australian reports being attacked by police to clear way for his Trumpness to hold a book into the camera.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056

QuoteAustralian journalists assaulted as police clear George Floyd protesters outside White House

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has instructed Australia's embassy in the US to investigate after two Australian journalists were assaulted by police during a protest outside the White House.

The incident, which came amid a string of police attacks on media during the protests triggered by the killing of George Floyd, earlier led Federal Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese to call for Australia's ambassador to the US to make an official complaint.

Ambassador Arthur B Culvahouse Jr later said in a statement that the embassy takes the mistreatment of journalists seriously, "as do all who take democracy seriously".

Channel 7 News US correspondent Amelia Brace and cameraman Tim Myers were reporting live on Sunrise on Tuesday morning when police in riot gear moved in to clear the protesters from the area about 6:25pm Monday (local time) before the curfew at 7:00pm.

After the protesters were removed, President Donald Trump emerged from the White House to speak to media in front of a church across the road.

Amid a stampede, footage shows one officer shoving Myers with a shield before punching him while another officer swings at them with a baton as they try to escape. A third officer appears to try to hold his colleagues back and let the journalists go.

It is understood Mr Morrison was unaware of the incident when he spoke to Mr Trump this morning.

Mr Morrison has since spoken to Channel Seven and assured them of the Government's support should they wish to pursue a formal complaint.

The Prime Minister has also asked the Australian embassy in Washington DC to investigate the incident and provide further advice on registering Australia's strong concerns with the responsible local authorities.

Brace told Sunrise she and Myers were "not too bad" and the effects from the tear gas were worse.

"We're a bit sore," she said.

"I actually managed to get a rubber bullet to the backside and Tim got one in the back of the neck so we'll have a few bruises tomorrow but we're perfectly safe."

Brace said Myers was a veteran cameraman who had worked in war zones and she felt comfortable being with him.

"There was really no escape at that moment," she said.

"We had the National Guard behind us and those police coming through so quickly, there was nowhere for us to go, so there was really no choice but to hide in that corner hoping they would pass by.

"As you can see in those pictures, they did not."


'Police most constant source of danger'

"A police officer's face came around that corner and just really went for us and I was screaming 'Media! Media! Media!' because, obviously, the media is not meant to be getting caught up in this — we're not meant to be getting targeted," the Sunshine Coast local told the ABC.

"And despite that as I ran away, clearly stating that we were media, with my cameraman with a camera on his shoulders, I was hit across the back with the baton.

"We were then fired upon by the National Guard with those rubber bullets, who are the exact people I had shown my media pass to ... and then we ended up getting tear-gassed.


"It was just a remarkable situation and just absolutely terrifying when you really feel like you've got nowhere to go."

Ms Brace said police had been the most constant source of danger through the protests.

"My main concern is the police, not the protesters because there is such a heightened level of fear here that it just takes someone to reach for their pocket and they think you're going for a gun, or to do anything out of the ordinary, to speak in the wrong tone of voice and you don't know what the reaction will be and there seem to be no consequences for that, so that is terrifying," she said.

"In terms of the protesters themselves, there have been a few moments that I've been scared but more for rush perspective in terms of almost like a stampede, like wanting to make sure that I've got something to duck behind should everyone run in one direction."

The ABC has attempted to contact Channel 7 for comment.

Australia treating incident as 'very serious matter'

Foreign Minister Marise Payne said the Federal Government was treating the incident as a "very serious matter".

"I want to get further advice on how we would go about registering Australia's strong concerns with the responsible local authorities in Washington," Senator Payne told RN Drive.

"So our Embassy in the United States will approach the relevant authorities, and Channel Seven will also provide us with their views on how they wish to deal with it
."

Senator Payne was careful not to comment on whether US law enforcement agencies were targeting media, but reiterated Australia's concerns about the rioting.

"This is obviously a very troubling period in the United States, and a very tough period," Senator Payne said.

"We are always supportive of peoples' right to peaceful protest, and we encourage all involved on both sides to exercise constraint and avoid violence."

Calls for Australian ambassador to make official complaint

Senator Payne's comments came after Mr Albanese earlier called for the Australian ambassador to intervene.

"The ambassador certainly should be making representations on behalf of these Australians, who effectively have been assaulted — that's what it is — for doing their job," The Opposition Leader said.

"In a democratic society, the role of the media is critical and it's important that the media are able to report on events, including crises such as we're seeing in the United States, free from harassment.

"And the violence that has occurred towards members of the media, Australian media and domestic media as well, with tear gas being fired, with media being assaulted, is completely unacceptable."

Ambassador Mr Culvahouse later said in a statement: "Freedom of the press is a right Australians and Americans hold dear.

"We take mistreatment of journalists seriously, as do all who take democracy seriously."

He then quoted US Senator Mike Pompeo's May 2019 World Press Freedom Day statement: "At all levels, the Department of State works tirelessly to advance press freedom, and we honour those who have dedicated and even sacrificed their lives to sustaining democracy through journalism."

The ambassador concluded: "We remain steadfast in our commitment to protecting journalists and guaranteeing equal justice under law for all."

Dozens of journalists arrested, assaulted and shot with projectiles

US Press Freedom Tracker claims to have verified and documented more than 100 incidents involving journalists including:
20 arrests
60 assaults with both physical and with ranged weapons
13 reports of damaged equipment
Nine reports of assaults with damage
25 others including tear gassing and building damage


Independent investigative organisation Bellingcat claims to have evidence of more than 50 incidents were journalists have been attacked by law enforcement during the protests.

They include journalists from an NBC affiliate broadcasting live on air in Louisville, Kentucky, being deliberately targeted by police firing rubber bullets from a range of a few metres, Swedish and Norwegian journalists hit by rubber bullets and photo-journalist Linda Tirado who was permanently blinded in the left eye after being hit by a "less lethal" round in Minneapolis.

"In these examples, journalists have been shot with rubber bullets, targeted with stun grenades, tear-gassed, physically attacked, pepper-sprayed and arrested," Bellingcat analyst Nick Waters said in a report.

"Although in some incidents it is possible the journalists were hit or affected accidentally, in the majority of the cases we have recorded the journalists are clearly identifiable as press, and it is clear that they are being deliberately targeted.


"This pattern of violence against journalists is replicated in several cities, but appears most intense in Minneapolis."

On Friday, CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez and his two-person crew were arrested on live television while covering overnight protests in Minneapolis. They were quickly released, and Minnesota Governor Tim Walz apologised to CNN.

Media have also been the target of protesters including Fox News reporter Leland Vittert who was pummelled and chased by protesters who had gathered outside the White House early on Saturday.

Vittert said he was rattled following the attack, which he said was clearly targeted at his news organisation.

CNN's headquarters in Atlanta was also targeted on Friday by a group of protesters who broke windows and scrawled obscene graffiti on the network's logo.

Trump blamed for attacks on media

Reporters Without Borders (RSF) secretary-general Christophe Deloire condemned the attacks on journalists.

"President Trump's demonisation of the media for years has now come to fruition, with both the police and protesters targeting clearly identified journalists with violence and arrests," Mr Deloire said.

"It has long been obvious that this demonisation would lead to physical violence.

"RSF has warned about the consequences of this blatant hostility towards the media, and we are now witnessing an unprecedented outbreak of violence against journalists in the US.

"RSF calls on all US authorities to ensure the full protection of journalists and honour the country's founding principles in respecting press freedom."



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 12:20:20 PM
I must admit this can be a result/goal of the protests, the police are doing their utmost to prove just how bad they are.

In some cases they are like their own caricature. Like this incident in LA where a few black people helped a bunch of white shopowners defend their store from some young hoodlums:
https://www.foxla.com/news/good-samaritans-detained-on-live-tv-while-protecting-la-business-from-alleged-looters

After about two minutes the police shows up, the young fuckers disappear. Police enters the scene and without asking questions start arresting the two black persons at the scene. :bleeding:

Takes pleading from the TV crew to remove handcuffs from them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 12:26:59 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCmg5jzG/lo.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2020, 12:33:52 PM
The US needs to call out the military to stop the White House from violating constitutional rights.
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 12:20:20 PM
I must admit this can be a result/goal of the protests, the police are doing their utmost to prove just how bad they are.

In some cases they are like their own caricature. Like this incident in LA where a few black people helped a bunch of white shopowners defend their store from some young hoodlums:
https://www.foxla.com/news/good-samaritans-detained-on-live-tv-while-protecting-la-business-from-alleged-looters

After about two minutes the police shows up, the young fuckers disappear. Police enters the scene and without asking questions start arresting the two black persons at the scene. :bleeding:

Takes pleading from the TV crew to remove handcuffs from them.

Second degree misdemeanor of bearing the wrong skin pigmentation in a Van Nuys liquor store.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 02, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Senator Pompeo?  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 02:09:29 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
I just read the story, in NY Post of all places, about protesters forming human chains to protect the local Target store against looters.  This sounds like a win-win tactic to adopt widely for them in so many dimensions:  they clearly separate themselves from the looters, they actually give themselves something to do besides goading cops with no end game, and maybe they'll win the PR war against cops that way who have seemed to largely hunker down and let looters do their thing.

Thank god we saved the Target!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:25:28 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 02:09:29 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
I just read the story, in NY Post of all places, about protesters forming human chains to protect the local Target store against looters.  This sounds like a win-win tactic to adopt widely for them in so many dimensions:  they clearly separate themselves from the looters, they actually give themselves something to do besides goading cops with no end game, and maybe they'll win the PR war against cops that way who have seemed to largely hunker down and let looters do their thing.

Thank god we saved the Target!
Yeah, who cares?  I guess apart from the people who actually cared enough to put their bodies in the way.  Maybe they didn't read the Target's insurance policy carefully enough.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:25:28 PM
Yeah, who cares?  I guess apart from the people who actually cared enough to put their bodies in the way.  Maybe they didn't read the Target's insurance policy carefully enough.

Sorry, but fuck Target. People try to protect others, actual living people, in demonstrations all the time, and they get maced, and pepper sprayed, and receive rubber bullets and batons to the face for their concerns. But, by all means, let's praise the protection of Target as the heights of responsible demonstration. I am going to send thoughts and prayers for Target.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 02:40:23 PM
If you think "it's unfortunate that black people are being killed, but the looting has to stop", try turning it the other way around. It's unfortunate that there is looting, but the killing of black people has to stop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:43:19 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:25:28 PM
Yeah, who cares?  I guess apart from the people who actually cared enough to put their bodies in the way.  Maybe they didn't read the Target's insurance policy carefully enough.

Sorry, but fuck Target. People try to protect others, actual living people, in demonstrations all the time, and they get maced, and pepper sprayed, and receive rubber bullets and batons to the face for their concerns. But, by all means, let's praise the protection of Target as the heights of responsible demonstration. I am going to send thoughts and prayers for Target.
:wacko: I'm starting to think you have a real problem with people holding on to their property.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 02:43:45 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 02:40:23 PM
If you think "it's unfortunate that black people are being killed, but the looting has to stop", try turning it the other way around. It's unfortunate that there is looting, but the killing of black people has to stop.


I mean yes. The looting is allowing a distraction from the main issue here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 02:45:26 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, but fuck Target.

Yeah let's just let all brick and mortar retail die! SCREW THE LOWER CLASSES THEY SHOULD ORDER AMAZON LIKE THE REST OF US. And they don't need local jobs, they can use their computers and smart phones to work remotely. I mean what is the problem?

This reminds me of your sneering contempt for shopping malls until I brought up the fact they were dying. At that point you pivoted and pointed out how bad that is for the local communities. Um...yes...yes it is. Same with Target and other brick and mortar stores being taken down by all that is going on this year.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:45:53 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 02:40:23 PM
If you think "it's unfortunate that black people are being killed, but the looting has to stop", try turning it the other way around. It's unfortunate that there is looting, but the killing of black people has to stop.
I for one don't think the two should be connected at all.  Apparently neither did the protesters protecting Target, if you still count them as protesters after this whole protecting someone's property stunt they pulled.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 02:46:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:43:19 PM
:wacko: I'm starting to think you have a real problem with people holding on to their property.

Or people holding on to their places of work, or places they shop.  Or people trying to draw a distinction between righteous protestors and thugs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 02:46:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 02:43:45 PM

I mean yes. The looting is allowing a distraction from the main issue here.

Yes, but for conservatives the looting is the main issue. It needs to be stopped so they can continue to studiously ignore the actual issue and get back to complaining about Colin Kaepernick.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 02:49:42 PM
Oex, Solmyr, could you dial the virtue signalling back just a little bit? Cheers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 02:54:45 PM
Striking how many protests this has sparked in Europe - Berlin, London, Paris (extraordinary crowds of about 20,000 under the hashtag #justicepouradama, after Adama Traore a 24 year old black man killed while being arrested, chanting for "revolution!" :wub:). Also I've seen protests by black Israelis in Tel Aviv and protests in Brazil ("vidas negras importam").

It's one of the striking things - and a demonstration of America's power. It always feels like America's simultaneously the most radical and most conservative place; and there's always a "good America" of that sort-of radical promise and the "bad America" that's its demons. It's extraordinary seeing these other movements and protests. There's a degree of it being in solidarity, but it's not just that. They're also not really "inspired" by BLM in the US, it's more that they are using the languages and the images developed in the "good America" to pressure their own governments - something which has happened many times before.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 02:56:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 02:40:23 PM
If you think "it's unfortunate that black people are being killed, but the looting has to stop", try turning it the other way around. It's unfortunate that there is looting, but the killing of black people has to stop.

If someone killed a loved one or family member of mine, I would not think to express my rage by smashing a liquor store window and grab a crate of Calvados.  I would do that if I wanted to steal a bunch of booze.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 02:57:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 02:45:26 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, but fuck Target.

Yeah let's just let all brick and mortar retail die! SCREW THE LOWER CLASSES THEY SHOULD ORDER AMAZON LIKE THE REST OF US. And they don't need local jobs, they can use their computers and smart phones to work remotely. I mean what is the problem?

This reminds me of your sneering contempt for shopping malls until I brought up the fact they were dying. At that point you pivoted and pointed out how bad that is for the local communities. Um...yes...yes it is. Same with Target and other brick and mortar stores being taken down by all that is going on this year.

:huh: Cake is a perfectly valid food.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 02:57:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 02:54:45 PM

It's one of the striking things - and a demonstration of America's power. It always feels like America's simultaneously the most radical and most conservative place; and there's always a "good America" of that sort-of radical promise and the "bad America" that's its demons. It's extraordinary seeing these other movements and protests. There's a degree of it being in solidarity, but it's not just that. They're also not really "inspired" by BLM in the US, it's more that they are using the languages and the images developed in the "good America" to pressure their own governments - something which has happened many times before.

There is an America that I fell and remain madly in love with.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:00:16 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 02:43:19 PM
:wacko: I'm starting to think you have a real problem with people holding on to their property.

No. I have a real problem with police brutality, state violence and racism. It's about a matter of perspective, and priorities. So, no, my concern is not for Target. It's for people who lose an eye to a rubber bullet. When people can demonstrate without the fear of losing limbs, I'll be concerned for Target.

The people who are "protecting the Target" are not doing it out of their love for big surface store. They are doing it precisely because people seem to be much more bloody concerned about broken windows and pillaged stores than they are about dead men, women and children. They do it out of hope that somehow, the media will stop focusing so much about looting if they prevent it from happening. Great. It's awesome if it works. But I am still bloody pissed off that people seem to be willing to expend considerable energy discussing property protection that they never seem to really want to spend about racism; and people pontificating about how demonstrations should unfold, when it's clear they would never show up in the first place. 

You want demonstrations to be peaceful and without looting? How about you show up, and you police the behavior of demonstrators. Or try to show up in front of police in a peaceful demonstration. See how you are rewarded for your efforts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 02:49:42 PM
Oex, Solmyr, could you dial the virtue signalling back just a little bit? Cheers.

Go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:06 PM


Go fuck yourself.

No, no he said "virtue signalling" to you, that means he pwned you and he's the best at arguing. Everyone knows that's what that means.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 02:45:26 PM
Yeah let's just let all brick and mortar retail die! SCREW THE LOWER CLASSES THEY SHOULD ORDER AMAZON LIKE THE REST OF US. And they don't need local jobs, they can use their computers and smart phones to work remotely. I mean what is the problem?

This reminds me of your sneering contempt for shopping malls until I brought up the fact they were dying. At that point you pivoted and pointed out how bad that is for the local communities. Um...yes...yes it is. Same with Target and other brick and mortar stores being taken down by all that is going on this year.

:wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
:wacko:

Precisely. I remain puzzled by your weird positions on this.

I mean I can see saying "look we have higher priorities here than the survival of the biggest employing sector in the United States that is currently already experiencing a melt down some lesser evils might be committed in service of a higher cause" but actively just going "yeah fuck that industry" is wacko. And you have done it before, as I pointed out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:07:52 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:06 PM


Go fuck yourself.

No, no he said "virtue signalling" to you, that means he pwned you and he's the best at arguing. Everyone knows that's what that means.

See? I don't like them cheering on the needless destruction of shops and I am branded as against the cause of the protests.

You guys are heading for a civll war with this attitude.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:08:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
:wacko:

Precisely. I remain puzzled by your weird positions on this.

I mean I can see saying "look we have higher priorities here than the survival of the biggest employing sector in the United States that is currently already experiencing a melt down some lesser evils might be committed in service of a higher cause" but actively just going "yeah fuck that industry" is wacko. And you have done it before, as I pointed out.

You stand in line or you are an enemy!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:07:52 PM
See? I don't like them cheering on the needless destruction of shops and I am branded as against the cause of the protests.
You guys are heading for a civll war with this attitude.

Don't like it all you want. Stupid "virtue signaling" accusation? It's not worth engaging with beyond what I wrote.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:13:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:07:52 PM


See? I don't like them cheering on the needless destruction of shops and I am branded as against the cause of the protests.

You guys are heading for a civll war with this attitude.

*gasps* teh civil war against teh libs begins! He mocked me saying virtue signalling! To arms!!!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:13:41 PM
This is what I meant about protest supporters being careful about picking their heroes, if they want to keep their credibility.  It sure looks to me like some here are making heroes out of those who trash stores to take some free shit with them, and somehow making it out that not only is taking 10 free pairs of pants further the cause of protests, but that it's a necessary part of a successful protests.  If you're against that, you're for people being killed by police with impunity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:14:42 PM
For what it's worth, I'm not seeing any virtues being signaled here.  Quite the opposite, in fact.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 02, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
Patton Oswalt had a great post about virtue signalling the other day. "Y'know why you yell "virtue signaling" when you see anyone be an ally to the oppressed or abused or "othered"? 'Cuz you can't imagine an action not linked to a selfish motive. You can't accept someone wanting a better world without it directly benefiting them. It's beyond you."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 02, 2020, 03:17:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 02:54:45 PM
Striking how many protests this has sparked in Europe - Berlin, London, Paris (extraordinary crowds of about 20,000 under the hashtag #justicepouradama, after Adama Traore a 24 year old black man

Police says 15,000 which still is surprisingly high.  :hmm: People killed two birds with a stone I guess, after a long lockdown ; the demonstration was not authorized since meeting of more than 10 people are still forbidden.
Plus a new autopsy contradicting the previous ones, without really settling the case yet.
Already trouble around Porte de Clichy, near the Paris ring road, after a peaceful start, unsurprisingly.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/mort-d-adama-traore-le-prefet-de-police-interdit-un-rassemblement-a-paris-20200602 (https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/mort-d-adama-traore-le-prefet-de-police-interdit-un-rassemblement-a-paris-20200602)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 02, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
Patton Oswalt had a great post about virtue signalling the other day. "Y'know why you yell "virtue signaling" when you see anyone be an ally to the oppressed or abused or "othered"? 'Cuz you can't imagine an action not linked to a selfish motive. You can't accept someone wanting a better world without it directly benefiting them. It's beyond you."
Self-righteousness is always an effective argument against accusations of virtue signalling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:19:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:13:41 PM
This is what I meant about protest supporters being careful about picking their heroes, if they want to keep their credibility.  It sure looks to me like some here are making heroes out of those who trash stores to take some free shit with them, and somehow making it out that not only is taking 10 free pairs of pants further the cause of protests, but that it's a necessary part of a successful protests.  If you're against that, you're for people being killed by police with impunity.

As I have said multiple times, I am firmly against looting, lawlessness, destruction of property, violence in general. I condemn the destruction of family owned businesses and Big Box stores.

Easy. Police murders and malfeasance are also very easy to figure out a position on.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 02, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
Patton Oswalt had a great post about virtue signalling the other day. "Y'know why you yell "virtue signaling" when you see anyone be an ally to the oppressed or abused or "othered"? 'Cuz you can't imagine an action not linked to a selfish motive. You can't accept someone wanting a better world without it directly benefiting them. It's beyond you."

Generally what I see as "virtue signaling" is when some big corporation releases a propaganda video saying how much they support whatever value they are trying to claim as part of their "brand". It is hard for me to not be cynical about it, but I guess it is a positive that this big corporation at least sees it as advantageous to their business to be seen as allied to some worthy cause even if I doubt they are actually doing much about it.

Edit: Something like "We here at Big Oil corporation care deeply about the planet and we plant 100 trees every day. Here is a video of good looking actors dressed up as our employees planting some trees with inspiring music. Pay no attention to us spending millions on lobbying to reduce environmental regulations."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:21:18 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:13:41 PM
This is what I meant about protest supporters being careful about picking their heroes, if they want to keep their credibility.  It sure looks to me like some here are making heroes out of those who trash stores to take some free shit with them, and somehow making it out that not only is taking 10 free pairs of pants further the cause of protests, but that it's a necessary part of a successful protests.  If you're against that, you're for people being killed by police with impunity.

Or maybe we're not about making any of this about those idiots trashing and looting stores.

No one is making them heroes here. We're just saying that it's not the point, and that's not where the focus should be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 03:21:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:07:52 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:06 PM


Go fuck yourself.

No, no he said "virtue signalling" to you, that means he pwned you and he's the best at arguing. Everyone knows that's what that means.

See? I don't like them cheering on the needless destruction of shops and I am branded as against the cause of the protests.

You guys are heading for a civll war with this attitude.

I haven't cheered any destruction of shops. I just can't bring myself to care about it when there are far more important things being protested.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:22:02 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:21:18 PM
Or maybe we're not about making any of this about those idiots trashing and looting stores.

No one is making them heroes here. We're just saying that it's not the point, and that's not where the focus should be.

Totally agree.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.

People in ivory towers often don't give a flying fuck about poor people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 02, 2020, 03:25:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 02, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
Patton Oswalt had a great post about virtue signalling the other day. "Y'know why you yell "virtue signaling" when you see anyone be an ally to the oppressed or abused or "othered"? 'Cuz you can't imagine an action not linked to a selfish motive. You can't accept someone wanting a better world without it directly benefiting them. It's beyond you."

Generally what I see as "virtue signaling" is when some big corporation releases a propaganda video saying how much they support whatever value they are trying to claim as part of their "brand". It is hard for me to not be cynical about it, but I guess it is a positive that this big corporation at least sees it as advantageous to their business to be seen as allied to some worthy cause even if I doubt they are actually doing much about it.
That understanding I can get behind. I feel like the whole term should be retired though. I am definitely sick of seeing the bullshit corporate posts "supporting" the cause of the moment or month while said corporation doesn't actually make any legitimate changes within their own practices that would show real support and belief in the post. The hollow bullshit is always there though and certain people just love seeing it I guess. The current crop of white text on black background without pictures stating they believe in the idea of Black Lives Matter are pretty dreadful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:13:41 PM
This is what I meant about protest supporters being careful about picking their heroes, if they want to keep their credibility.  It sure looks to me like some here are making heroes out of those who trash stores to take some free shit with them, and somehow making it out that not only is taking 10 free pairs of pants further the cause of protests, but that it's a necessary part of a successful protests.  If you're against that, you're for people being killed by police with impunity.

The only one who is making this false equivalency is you. No one is "my hero" for trashing and looting a Target. It's simply not my priority, my number one cause for concern. The difference, I think, is that I will not disqualify a protest because there will be looting. And yet, many people here are far from ready from disqualifying policing from repeated instances of brutality.

I can deplore looting. I wish it didn't happen. But it happens. It sucks. But I hate that people seem to require some ritual contrition about it, but throw their hands in the air the moment racism is evoked. I will not make it a condition of my engagement that protests be certified "escalation-free" before I engage. Because that's simply not a reasonable stance to take. Escalation - to the extend I do not produce it - is beyond my control. It may happen. It may not. My sincere belief is that escalation by cops has a lot more negative consequences than punctual looting. Because it has much longer-lasting effects.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:25:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 03:13:41 PM
This is what I meant about protest supporters being careful about picking their heroes, if they want to keep their credibility.  It sure looks to me like some here are making heroes out of those who trash stores to take some free shit with them, and somehow making it out that not only is taking 10 free pairs of pants further the cause of protests, but that it's a necessary part of a successful protests.  If you're against that, you're for people being killed by police with impunity.

Believe it or not, I'm not 100% unsympathetiic to the pro-looter side.  Here's how I see the thinking going.

Looting is in fact an honest expression of rage.  They are trying to get back at The Man, The System.  When people like you and I judge them to be motivated by the desire for acquisition rather than rage, we judge and invalidate their rage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:21:18 PM

Or maybe we're not about making any of this about those idiots trashing and looting stores.

No one is making them heroes here. We're just saying that it's not the point, and that's not where the focus should be.

No, no this is now a looting thread. There may be something else going on here in the US, but the real problem is looting. looting, looting, looting. Remember Looty from 2005? That was the real story of Hurricane Katrina. LA Riots? Looting. Ferguson? looting. Teh blacks are out there doing a loot and teh libs are supporting them on the internet. Thats what's happening.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 02, 2020, 03:26:47 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 02, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
Patton Oswalt had a great post about virtue signalling the other day. "Y'know why you yell "virtue signaling" when you see anyone be an ally to the oppressed or abused or "othered"? 'Cuz you can't imagine an action not linked to a selfish motive. You can't accept someone wanting a better world without it directly benefiting them. It's beyond you."

There's a similar lack of imagination/empathy behind other alt-right buzzwords like "identity politics".

You can't imagine why people who have been brutalized because of their identity need to see people with that identity in power, because it hasn't happened to you.

You can't imagine people whose protests have fallen on deaf ears expressing their rage with rioting and looting, because more productive avenues of protest are open to you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.

People in ivory towers often don't give a flying fuck about poor people.

:console:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.

People in ivory towers often don't give a flying fuck about poor people.

:console:

Hey I'm OK. Luckily I'm not poor. But thanks. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:28:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.

Oex made a good point about that, though.

Protecting the store was to prevent the "Well, I was on their side until they started stealing shoes!!" bullshit.

How can anyone NOT be on the side of people tired of being killed in the streets? And if someone stealing shoes (or many someones doing so) can turn you against that, the issue isn't the looted stores. The issue is what you deem more important than people being killed in the streets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:28:28 PM
Protecting the store was to prevent the "Well, I was on their side until they started stealing shoes!!" bullshit.

No one here has taken that position.  This  is pretty much a straw man.  Rather we are distinguishing between righteous and unrighteous protestors.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:36:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
No one here has taken that position.  This  is pretty much a straw man.  Rather we are distinguishing between righteous and unrighteous protestors.

Why is that a useful distinction to make?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:36:57 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 02, 2020, 03:26:47 PM

There's a similar lack of imagination/empathy behind other alt-right buzzwords like "identity politics".

Which is hilarious since few are as big into identity politics like the alt-right. You would think they would have plenty of empathy for racial and identity based nationalism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 02, 2020, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:28:28 PM
Protecting the store was to prevent the "Well, I was on their side until they started stealing shoes!!" bullshit.

No one here has taken that position.  This  is pretty much a straw man.  Rather we are distinguishing between righteous and unrighteous protestors.
Is the crime and problem they are protesting, rioting, and looting in support of/because of/sparked by worse than the crime and problem that said protesting, rioting, and looting causes. So far I rank murder and systemic racism as far worse crimes and problems than anything I have seen in the protesting, looting, and rioting. That is me though. That is how I am judging the righteousness or unrighteousness of the sides.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:37:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.

People in ivory towers often don't give a flying fuck about poor people.

:console:

Hey I'm OK. Luckily I'm not poor. But thanks. :)

You're poor in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 03:38:13 PM
Not on topic to this discussion, but watching the influencers getting their content from all of this is incredible:
https://twitter.com/influencersitw/status/1267627931154747392?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 02, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:36:57 PM
Which is hilarious since few are as big into identity politics like the alt-right. You would think they would have plenty of empathy for racial and identity based nationalism.
They are nothing if not inconsistent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:39:35 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 03:38:13 PM
Not on topic to this discussion, but watching the influencers getting their content from all of this is incredible:
https://twitter.com/influencersitw/status/1267627931154747392?s=20

See now this is virtue signalling if it is a thing. Just getting images for the brand.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:40:57 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:37:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
Fine, I take it back. I just felt you were laying it on a bit thick, attacking the fact of people protecting shops from looting.

People in ivory towers often don't give a flying fuck about poor people.

:console:

Hey I'm OK. Luckily I'm not poor. But thanks. :)

You're poor in a lot of ways.

So cruel. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:42:42 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 02, 2020, 03:26:47 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 02, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
Patton Oswalt had a great post about virtue signalling the other day. "Y'know why you yell "virtue signaling" when you see anyone be an ally to the oppressed or abused or "othered"? 'Cuz you can't imagine an action not linked to a selfish motive. You can't accept someone wanting a better world without it directly benefiting them. It's beyond you."

There's a similar lack of imagination/empathy behind other alt-right buzzwords like "identity politics".

You can't imagine why people who have been brutalized because of their identity need to see people with that identity in power, because it hasn't happened to you.

You can't imagine people whose protests have fallen on deaf ears expressing their rage with rioting and looting, because more productive avenues of protest are open to you.

The extreme right at least is heavily into identity politics.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:43:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:36:17 PM
Why is that a useful distinction to make?

To avoid unfairly stigmatizing people with what many of us consider to be unacceptable behavior.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:45:34 PM
As some others have commented, I must say it's nice that we have so intense and lively debates on Languish. We're definitely alive! :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:46:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:43:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:36:17 PM
Why is that a useful distinction to make?

To avoid unfairly stigmatizing people with what many of us consider to be unacceptable behavior.

Why is that a useful distinction to make?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:47:50 PM
This really shouldn't be more than a footnote.

Can y'all just get the fuck over the (minimal amount of) looting?

Now it feels like you're virtue signalling
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:46:32 PM
Why is that a useful distinction to make?

I'm not enjoying this game any more.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 03:51:18 PM
Too bad. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.

What's with the sass? You're out of rotten herring or something?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:56:10 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.

What's with the sass? You're out of rotten herring or something?

No I'm good. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 03:56:49 PM
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/minnesota-dept-of-human-rights-launches-civil-rights-investigation-into-minneapolis-police-department (https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/minnesota-dept-of-human-rights-launches-civil-rights-investigation-into-minneapolis-police-department)

So this is sort of a good step I suppose, although I'm not sure what it means in practice. Do they have a two year investigation and then exonerate the department? I think it might be smart to arrest the other three former officers who helped murder George Floyd for a start.

Watching the Minneapolis PD try to sort of use the normal playbook at first - especially the bit where the county examiner attempts the pre exsisting condition/he was high!!! smokescreen has been sort of amazing and reminds me of the wonderful Bill Hicks bit from 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3-tYgzolc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3-tYgzolc)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:56:10 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.

What's with the sass? You're out of rotten herring or something?

No I'm good. :)

Just your usual swedish douchebag then. Just making sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 04:00:59 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:56:10 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.

What's with the sass? You're out of rotten herring or something?

No I'm good. :)

Just your usual swedish douchebag then. Just making sure.

Rest easy. I'm just as douchebaggy as I've ever been.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 02, 2020, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:45:34 PM
As some others have commented, I must say it's nice that we have so intense and lively debates on Languish. We're definitely alive! :)

So alive, we're ready to shoot ourself in the head.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:47:50 PM
This really shouldn't be more than a footnote.

Can y'all just get the fuck over the (minimal amount of) looting?

Now it feels like you're virtue signalling

I don't know what you mean by get over the looting.  Pretend it's not happening?  Embrace it like Meri and hope there's more? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 04:06:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 02, 2020, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:45:34 PM
As some others have commented, I must say it's nice that we have so intense and lively debates on Languish. We're definitely alive! :)

So alive, we're ready to shoot ourself in the head.

Not just yet! In Steiner we trust. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 04:12:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 03:28:28 PM
Protecting the store was to prevent the "Well, I was on their side until they started stealing shoes!!" bullshit.

No one here has taken that position.  This  is pretty much a straw man.  Rather we are distinguishing between righteous and unrighteous protestors.

No one here has. There has, however, been a multitude of that on social media platforms.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 04:18:02 PM
If the reactionaries are going to absolutely hammer the looting message, and the police for similar reasons will not really work on stopping it, would it not be beneficial for the protesters to do such demonstrative acts of distancing them from them?

In 1956, when there was literal fighting between the Stalinist regime in Hungary and the revolutionaries, the latter had zero tolerance for looting of non-regime buildings or persons, and yet they managed to win the fight. Heck, they famously had open collection hats/buckets on the streets for donations to help families who lost people in the fighting. Nobody dared touching the cash because the revolutionaries were protecting them.

I understand that looting in reality is a small thing when compared tot he overall number of protesters. But is that a good enough reason to give up the PR battle over it without even trying? I am sorry, but I am fairly certain that a lot of people, if they are made to feel like they need to choose between continued fighting of institutionalised racism or the safety of their persons and property, they will decide they can live with the racism (especially as it mostly won't affect them) but they won't live without the security. Now, again, I understand the premise of this choice is entirely false, but the regime is working very hard to convince them that it is a real one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 02, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.

What's with the sass? You're out of rotten herring or something?
Sass from the sidelines is the inevitable result when peaceful attempts at discussion meet character assassination.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 04:25:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 03:47:50 PM
This really shouldn't be more than a footnote.

Can y'all just get the fuck over the (minimal amount of) looting?

Now it feels like you're virtue signalling

I don't know what you mean by get over the looting.  Pretend it's not happening?  Embrace it like Meri and hope there's more?

WTF.

Where is this narative that Meri "hopes there's more" coming from?

What I said, to be clear, is that I don't blame these people for being angry nor do I condemn them for how they're showing their anger. They have every right to be pissed, and I'm shocked that it took this long for the powder keg to blow.

I don't care that stores are being looted and vandalized only in that I think it's immaterial to what's happening to people of color in this country. Again I'll say, do I wish/hope for it? No, I don't. Do I care that it's happening? I care in that I don't wish anyone to be hurt, but not enough to stress over it when peaceful protesters are being blinded with rubber bullets and smashed with shields and fists.

Commercial America usually does a pretty good job of taking care of itself. POC, on the other hand, usually gets fucked over. So yeah, my sympathies lie there instead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:34:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 04:19:09 PM
Sass from the sidelines is the inevitable result when peaceful attempts at discussion meet character assassination.

What character assassination? Who has been assassinated? So far, and except Tamas' outburst, which he acknowledged, I only see Brain sniping at me from the sidelines.

I am angry, yes - for a variety of reasons, some of which are personal, some are in line with my actual belief, and some, because I show up for protests despite the risk. Because it's important. It doesn't mean that I am not afraid. So, people who are snarky, or detached, from the sidelines get my goat. Do I think they are misguided? Yes. Do I think people here are fascists? No (for the most part). 

I engage with you because I think you are arguing in good faith, even if we disagree - and, more crucially perhaps, because you engage back fairly. Not necessarily because I think your arguments are fair, but rather, because you give and take at similar levels. This is not the case with every one on Languish.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 04:42:27 PM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_1600/ocznriipdtqxtvhde60h.jpg)

Can the onion get a Pulitzer prize?

https://www.theonion.com/police-didn-t-spend-millions-on-awesome-tank-just-to-le-1843860163 (https://www.theonion.com/police-didn-t-spend-millions-on-awesome-tank-just-to-le-1843860163)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:34:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 04:19:09 PM
Sass from the sidelines is the inevitable result when peaceful attempts at discussion meet character assassination.

What character assassination? Who has been assassinated? So far, and except Tamas' outburst, which he acknowledged, I only see Brain sniping at me from the sidelines.

I am angry, yes - for a variety of reasons, some of which are personal, some are in line with my actual belief, and some, because I show up for protests despite the risk. Because it's important. It doesn't mean that I am not afraid. So, people who are snarky, or detached, from the sidelines get my goat. Do I think they are misguided? Yes. Do I think people here are fascists? No (for the most part). 

I engage with you because I think you are arguing in good faith, even if we disagree - and, more crucially perhaps, because you engage back fairly. Not necessarily because I think your arguments are fair, but rather, because you give and take at similar levels. This is not the case with every one on Languish.
I appreciate that. 

I don't think there has been a lot of character assassination here, certainly not when compared to the dumpster file a week ago in another thread, but I think the implication that talking about looting means you care more about jeans than about black people, or something in that vicinity, is pretty close to being that.  I don't think the position that anarchy in general and looting in particular is tangential to the protests or is counter-productive to the aims of the protests invites these kinds of implications.  I can see why some would choose to not attempt to enter the discussion if that's how the conversation can turn.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 04:47:06 PMI think the implication that talking about looting means you care more about jeans than about black people, or something in that vicinity, is pretty close to being that. (...) I can see why some would choose to not attempt to enter the discussion if that's how the conversation can turn.

Not directly, no. But most beliefs come with a lot of baggage folded into them, that often can be unfolded through stark contrasts. No one here seems to be balking at asking me to justify my beliefs, often with the ulterior motive of "showing me" something they have already considered. They shouldn't balk at the reverse being directed at them. I don't think people assume explicitly that a pair of jeans is worth more than a black life. But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 02, 2020, 04:56:29 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 02, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2020, 03:36:57 PM
Which is hilarious since few are as big into identity politics like the alt-right. You would think they would have plenty of empathy for racial and identity based nationalism.
They are nothing if not inconsistent.

I disagree - I think they are totally consistent.

They look at the other and see as in a mirror.

They see power as a zero sum game - that in this world, people are and ought to be divided by ethnicity as it is currently defined, Whites have the power, and if any is given to non-Whites, Whites will of necessity have less. It's merely a power struggle. If non-Whites are ever given power comparable to Whites, they will act just the same as Whites, that is hold onto power with oppression - so they must be fought, violently if necessary.

They live in a social Darwinian world, and aim to be top dog (while fearing they may not be).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: saskganesh on June 02, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 04:04:23 PM
  Embrace it like Meri and hope there's more?
wow

you should walk that back.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 02, 2020, 05:02:44 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:55:48 PM
But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.

So much time is spent discussing looting because lots of voices online bizarrely want to defend looting as some kind of valid form of protest.

I mean even most black leaders, the BLM movement, and others have condemned looting and rioting even as they continue to passionately denounce police violence.  Joe Biden, for example met with a number of black leaders today and gave a rare public speech.  He said (amongst much else) that looting and rioting must stop.

I would have thought "looting and rioting is bad" would have been one thing we could all agree on, and then move on to other topics.  But here we are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:03:13 PM
I don't know why everyone is attacking Meri.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
Who here has said that looting and rioting is good?

Anyone?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:04:45 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on June 02, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
wow

you should walk that back.

Yes, you're right.  I embellished.  Takes backs.

It was a reference to Meri's posts about being perfectly fine with businesses with insurance burning down or black people expressing their rage in any way they see fit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
Charleston today - the last 30-40 seconds are what I mean by these protests being incredible examples of classic passive resistance:
https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status/1267840280214069248?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:05:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:03:13 PM
I don't know why everyone is attacking Meri.

Because someone somewhere read what I wrote as "Good for those blacks! Burn the city down!" instead of what I said, which was, "I totally understand why they're doing what they're doing and I'm amazed that it took this long."

But what the fuck ever.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:04:45 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on June 02, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
wow

you should walk that back.

Yes, you're right.  I embellished.  Takes backs.

It was a reference to Meri's posts about being perfectly fine with businesses with insurance burning down or black people expressing their rage in any way they see fit.

Not what I said, but thanks for playing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:55:48 PM
Not directly, no. But most beliefs come with a lot of baggage folded into them, that often can be unfolded through stark contrasts. No one here seems to be balking at asking me to justify my beliefs, often with the ulterior motive of "showing me" something they have already considered. They shouldn't balk at the reverse being directed at them. I don't think people assume explicitly that a pair of jeans is worth more than a black life. But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.

The amount of time and energy spent discussing looting is a direct function of the amount of push back generated when the issue was first raised.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 02, 2020, 05:06:34 PM
I think luting is good, if done properly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:07:07 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
Who here has said that looting and rioting is good?

Anyone?

This is just so infuriating.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
The amount of time and energy spent discussing looting is a direct function of the amount of push back generated when the issue was first raised.
And a function of the people saying that as there's now looting the protesters probably need to step back and/or do more.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:07:07 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
Who here has said that looting and rioting is good?

Anyone?

This is just so infuriating.

g, I'm sorry if I'm contributing to your frustration. Definitely not my intent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
The amount of time and energy spent discussing looting is a direct function of the amount of push back generated when the issue was first raised.
And a function of the people saying that as there's now looting the protesters probably need to step back and/or do more.

Yeah I recall someone here suggested the protestors should give up now that looting has occurred.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:10:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:07:07 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
Who here has said that looting and rioting is good?

Anyone?

This is just so infuriating.

g, I'm sorry if I'm contributing to your frustration. Definitely not my intent.

No, not you. BB's crap.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:18:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 02, 2020, 05:02:44 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:55:48 PM
But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.

So much time is spent discussing looting because lots of voices online bizarrely want to defend looting as some kind of valid form of protest.

I mean even most black leaders, the BLM movement, and others have condemned looting and rioting even as they continue to passionately denounce police violence.  Joe Biden, for example met with a number of black leaders today and gave a rare public speech.  He said (amongst much else) that looting and rioting must stop.

I would have thought "looting and rioting is bad" would have been one thing we could all agree on, and then move on to other topics.  But here we are.


Bizarrely people on the right want to focus on the looting.  Go figure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
Charleston today - the last 30-40 seconds are what I mean by these protests being incredible examples of classic passive resistance:
https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status/1267840280214069248?s=20

Wow.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 05:26:01 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 02, 2020, 05:02:44 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 04:55:48 PM
But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.

So much time is spent discussing looting because lots of voices online bizarrely want to defend looting as some kind of valid form of protest.

I mean even most black leaders, the BLM movement, and others have condemned looting and rioting even as they continue to passionately denounce police violence.  Joe Biden, for example met with a number of black leaders today and gave a rare public speech.  He said (amongst much else) that looting and rioting must stop.

I would have thought "looting and rioting is bad" would have been one thing we could all agree on, and then move on to other topics.  But here we are.

Jesus FUCKING Christ.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:26:14 PM
QuoteI Cannot Remain Silent
Our fellow citizens are not the enemy, and must never become so.
5:17 PM ET
Mike Mullen
Seventeenth chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

It sickened me yesterday to see security personnel—including members of the National Guard—forcibly and violently clear a path through Lafayette Square to accommodate the president's visit outside St. John's Church. I have to date been reticent to speak out on issues surrounding President Trump's leadership, but we are at an inflection point, and the events of the past few weeks have made it impossible to remain silent.

Whatever Trump's goal in conducting his visit, he laid bare his disdain for the rights of peaceful protest in this country, gave succor to the leaders of other countries who take comfort in our domestic strife, and risked further politicizing the men and women of our armed forces.

There was little good in the stunt.

While no one should ever condone the violence, vandalism, and looting that has exploded across our city streets, neither should anyone lose sight of the larger and deeper concerns about institutional racism that have ignited this rage.

As a white man, I cannot claim perfect understanding of the fear and anger that African Americans feel today. But as someone who has been around for a while, I know enough—and I've seen enough—to understand that those feelings are real and that they are all too painfully founded.

We must, as citizens, address head-on the issue of police brutality and sustained injustices against the African American community. We must, as citizens, support and defend the right—indeed, the solemn obligation—to peacefully assemble and to be heard. These are not mutually exclusive pursuits.

And neither of these pursuits will be made easier or safer by an overly aggressive use of our military, active duty or National Guard. The United States has a long and, to be fair, sometimes troubled history of using the armed forces to enforce domestic laws. The issue for us today is not whether this authority exists, but whether it will be wisely administered.

I remain confident in the professionalism of our men and women in uniform. They will serve with skill and with compassion. They will obey lawful orders. But I am less confident in the soundness of the orders they will be given by this commander in chief, and I am not convinced that the conditions on our streets, as bad as they are, have risen to the level that justifies a heavy reliance on military troops. Certainly, we have not crossed the threshold that would make it appropriate to invoke the provisions of the Insurrection Act.

Furthermore, I am deeply worried that as they execute their orders, the members of our military will be co-opted for political purposes.

Even in the midst of the carnage we are witnessing, we must endeavor to see American cities and towns as our homes and our neighborhoods. They are not "battle spaces" to be dominated, and must never become so.

We must ensure that African Americans—indeed, all Americans—are given the same rights under the Constitution, the same justice under the law, and the same consideration we give to members of our own family. Our fellow citizens are not the enemy, and must never become so.

Too many foreign and domestic policy choices have become militarized; too many military missions have become politicized.

This is not the time for stunts. This is the time for leadership.

We want to hear what you think about this article. Submit a letter to the editor or write to [email protected].
Mike Mullen is a retired admiral from the U.S. Navy and was the 17th chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

The bit in bold seemed particularly striking. The whole piece is interesting.

It does raise for me the question - especially about "lawful orders" - of how far away we are from the President giving an order and the military having to choose whether they think it's lawful and whether they should follow the order or not.

Possibly relevant for the failed/failing state thread or the coup thread.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
Charleston today - the last 30-40 seconds are what I mean by these protests being incredible examples of classic passive resistance:
https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status/1267840280214069248?s=20

Wow.
And that's the purpose of the protest! :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 02, 2020, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
The amount of time and energy spent discussing looting is a direct function of the amount of push back generated when the issue was first raised.
And a function of the people saying that as there's now looting the protesters probably need to step back and/or do more.

Yeah I recall someone here suggested the protestors should give up now that looting has occurred.

I was saying they should do more or step back, not leave it where it's at.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:27:38 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
Charleston today - the last 30-40 seconds are what I mean by these protests being incredible examples of classic passive resistance:
https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status/1267840280214069248?s=20

Wow.
And that's the purpose of the protest! :P

:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 05:30:07 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
Charleston today - the last 30-40 seconds are what I mean by these protests being incredible examples of classic passive resistance:
https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status/1267840280214069248?s=20

Wow.

Land of the free and home of the brave. What a joke  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 05:30:07 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 02, 2020, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
Charleston today - the last 30-40 seconds are what I mean by these protests being incredible examples of classic passive resistance:
https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status/1267840280214069248?s=20

Wow.

Land of the free and home of the brave. What a joke  :lol:

Which is exactly why I say that I'm totally amazed that these "riots" have taken so long to occur. "Land of the free and home of the brave" only pertains to white men (and women if they toe the bigot line). It has been the case since the country's inception.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.


Yes, you address poverty by attack the cause, and in this case one of the major causes was the riots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.


Yes, you address poverty by attack the cause, and in this case one of the major causes was the riots.

And what caused the riots? It's almost as if some issues are complex and require doing more than one thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:37:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.


Yes, you address poverty by attack the cause, and in this case one of the major causes was the riots.

I am pretty sure the grinding poverty is caused by something other than one riot which postdated the grinding poverty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:38:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:26:14 PM
The bit in bold seemed particularly striking. The whole piece is interesting.

It does raise for me the question - especially about "lawful orders" - of how far away we are from the President giving an order and the military having to choose whether they think it's lawful and whether they should follow the order or not.

Possibly relevant for the failed/failing state thread or the coup thread.

I was wondering the same thing.

Incidentally, related to this topic, I learned today on NPR that the Enforcement Act of is actually much broader than the deployment of troops to protect constitutional rights, as I was led to believe by a quick read of Wiki.  It also allows the deployment of troops when the enforcement of federal and state laws are threatened.  Last time it was invoked was 1992, in California during the Rodney King riots, at Democratic governor Pete Wilson's request.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:38:34 PM

I was wondering the same thing.

Incidentally, related to this topic, I learned today on NPR that the Enforcement Act of is actually much broader than the deployment of troops to protect constitutional rights, as I was led to believe by a quick read of Wiki.  It also allows the deployment of troops when the enforcement of federal and state laws are threatened.  Last time it was invoked was 1992, in California during the Rodney King riots, at Democratic governor Pete Wilson's request.
According to my Wiki browsing that's the Insurrection Act (the one Trump is referring to) of 1807, which does, indeed, seem broad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act_of_1807
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:43:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:37:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.


Yes, you address poverty by attack the cause, and in this case one of the major causes was the riots.

I am pretty sure the grinding poverty is caused by something other than one riot which postdated the grinding poverty.


The town was fairly well off before the riots. :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 02, 2020, 05:44:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:38:34 PM
Last time it was invoked was 1992, in California during the Rodney King riots, at Democratic governor Pete Wilson's request.

Wilson is a Republican
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:48:32 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 02, 2020, 05:44:36 PM
Wilson is a Republican

My bad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.


Yes, you address poverty by attack the cause, and in this case one of the major causes was the riots.

And what caused the riots? It's almost as if some issues are complex and require doing more than one thing.

A robbery suspect was shot after he punched a police officer in the head and tried to steal his gun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
A robbery suspect was shot after he punched a police officer in the head and tried to steal his gun.

Allegedly tried to steal the cop's gun. Given what we're seeing today, hard to believe the cop on this one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 05:59:08 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
Who here has said that looting and rioting is good?

Anyone?

Nobody has. Not that I'm aware of. Conservatives imagine they have though, or they imagine that somewhere on the internet someone is. So you have to first say that you are against looting in their explicitly looting themed discussions. They can omit any mention of police misconduct or police murders, it is not a subject of interest to them. If you challenge them on this silence, it's back to looting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:00:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
The thing is the looting and property destruction isn't completely unrelated to the issue of police brutality.  In Fergusson, the riots resulted in the closure of the Walmart, the increase in insurance rates for businesses, and decrease of property values.  People ended up losing their jobs, their homes and access to affordable groceries.  The grinding poverty of government housing makes people desperate and they turn to crime which in turn attracts more police scrutiny and more conflict between the police and the community.

Now this doesn't apply everywhere there has been looting.  The looting I've seen looked like it took place in high-end shops.  Still, it's important to remember that property crimes can harm people beyond the folks owning the business and violent protests can do more harm than good for the people the protests are suppose to be for.

Yes, but the lesson to take from all of that is to address the grinding poverty rather than investing more in the police.


Yes, you address poverty by attack the cause, and in this case one of the major causes was the riots.

And what caused the riots? It's almost as if some issues are complex and require doing more than one thing.

A robbery suspect was shot after he punched a police officer in the head and tried to steal his gun.

Yes, Raz. I'm sure that's what happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:01:01 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
A robbery suspect was shot after he punched a police officer in the head and tried to steal his gun.

Allegedly tried to steal the cop's gun. Given what we're seeing today, hard to believe the cop on this one.

Which one is "This one"?  The feds came in to do an investigation they were unable to find evidence that the police officer acted criminally.  I doubt Eric Holder was was trying to cover for some pissant cop in a small town in North County.  The physical evidence backed up the police officer's story and the witnesses who said that Brown was shot while trying to surrender later changed their story.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:43:31 PM
The town was fairly well off before the riots. :mellow:

It was well off for a dwindling minority of white inhabitants (from 75% to 30% of the population in 15 years). The town was in crisis well before the riots, with rates of unemployment and poverty increasing rapidly between 1990 and 2010. It's fairly well documented that the town was compensating for diminishing revenue by exerting pressure on the police department to ticket more and more people - who ended up being, disproportionately, black.  The revenues from fines had increased by 80% during the two years prior to Mike Brown's death.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:02:22 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:00:05 PM

Yes, Raz. I'm sure that's what happened.


Good, because that is what the evidence showed.  The initial reporting was wrong.  There's not much more that can be said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 02, 2020, 06:03:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:38:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 05:26:14 PM
The bit in bold seemed particularly striking. The whole piece is interesting.

It does raise for me the question - especially about "lawful orders" - of how far away we are from the President giving an order and the military having to choose whether they think it's lawful and whether they should follow the order or not.

Possibly relevant for the failed/failing state thread or the coup thread.

I was wondering the same thing.

Incidentally, related to this topic, I learned today on NPR that the Enforcement Act of is actually much broader than the deployment of troops to protect constitutional rights, as I was led to believe by a quick read of Wiki.  It also allows the deployment of troops when the enforcement of federal and state laws are threatened.  Last time it was invoked was 1992, in California during the Rodney King riots, at Democratic governor Pete Wilson's request.

You had me doubting it so I looked it up...

Pete Wilson is a Republican.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:43:31 PM
The town was fairly well off before the riots. :mellow:

It was well off for a dwindling minority of white inhabitants (from 75% to 30% of the population in 15 years). The town was in crisis well before the riots, with rates of unemployment and poverty increasing rapidly between 1990 and 2010. It's fairly well documented that the town was compensating for diminishing revenue by exerting pressure on the police department to ticket more and more people - who ended up being, disproportionately, black.  The revenues from fines had increased by 80% during the two years prior to Mike Brown's death.


I have family in that area.  My dad came from the city to south and my uncle lived to the city in the north.  I'd been there plenty of times, it didn't seem too bad.

One thing is certain, they are much poorer now. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 06:11:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:08:38 PMI'd been there plenty of times, it didn't seem too bad.
There is a lot of info out there to check that perception.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:16:28 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 02, 2020, 06:11:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:08:38 PMI'd been there plenty of times, it didn't seem too bad.
There is a lot of info out there to check that perception.

Wonderful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:02:22 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:00:05 PM

Yes, Raz. I'm sure that's what happened.


Good, because that is what the evidence showed.  The initial reporting was wrong.  There's not much more that can be said.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure an 18 year old kid that was running away after stealing a pack of smokes stopped, ran towards the cop , then reached in the Chevy Tahoe with his slender 300 pounds frame, then accidentally fired at himself 12 times.

That's what happened for shizzle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:19:45 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 06:02:22 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:00:05 PM

Yes, Raz. I'm sure that's what happened.


Good, because that is what the evidence showed.  The initial reporting was wrong.  There's not much more that can be said.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure an 18 year old kid that was running away after stealing a pack of smokes stopped, ran towards the cop , then reached in the Chevy Tahoe with his slender 300 pounds frame, then accidentally fired at himself 12 times.

That's what happened for shizzle.

Straw man, five yard penalty, second down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 06:23:46 PM
And in fairness this time the guy was wanted because he'd been accused of trying to use a counterfeit $20 bill. Not clear if he was, but it feels almost apt that this - especially the looting and debates about that - was kicked off by that alleged crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 06:33:21 PM
Forget right or wrong, I think that unwillingness to examine and re-examine your side's beliefs and arguments is a bad tactic from a pragmatic perspective.  Whether Michael Brown did assault the cop, was an innocent victim, or it can't be determined, does not take away from the fact that police shooting investigations are sham affairs for both justified and unjustified shootings alike.  Being unable to tolerate plausible explanations that do not sufficiently strongly square with the narrative does take away from your credibility, however.

The left is not the right, what works well for the right will not necessarily work well for the left.  We can tolerate some critical thinking, in fact it makes us stronger.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:37:27 PM
Critical thinking is what makes the cop's version of events in the Michael Brown case (as in many others), not believable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 06:38:40 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:37:27 PM
Critical thinking is what makes the cop's version of events in the Michael Brown case (as in many others), not believable.
What does critical thinking say about the DOJ report?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:40:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 06:38:40 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:37:27 PM
Critical thinking is what makes the cop's version of events in the Michael Brown case (as in many others), not believable.
What does critical thinking say about the DOJ report?

Not much. It followed the letter of the law. I'm not laying blame on them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 06:53:51 PM
I can see how critical thinking would lead you to not take the words of a cop involved in a shooting at face value.  I think we have enough evidence to say that their testimony will never ever be anything other than self-serving, and same goes for every other cop on the scene. 

Where it seems like we depart from critical thinking is assuming that everything not trustworthy is automatically a lie.  Even Trump sometimes says things that are true, not everything that is the opposite of what he says is the case. 

There is nothing inconceivable about the cop's testimony, and DOJ report seemed to not only fail to find evidence against the cop, but actually found evidence to support the cop's story.  Sometimes it does happen that cops don't make the story up, because they don't actually have to.  Some of the 1000 people they shoot every year actually did present a threat that merited a deadly response, which is something that I think is too easily forgotten in all these "1 in a 1000 risk of death" kinds of arguments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:22:12 PM
This evening :blink:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZi9j5uXQAU1FeA?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 02, 2020, 07:28:09 PM
Where's cobra commander?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 07:30:30 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2020, 02:40:23 PM
If you think "it's unfortunate that black people are being killed, but the looting has to stop", try turning it the other way around. It's unfortunate that there is looting, but the killing of black people has to stop.

How about inverting it?  The murder and the looting have to stop.  No "but" involved.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 07:32:24 PM
Eye popping numbers on that second question. Never would have imagined so many yes votes. The nation is radicalizing in real time.

https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1267941135521067011
Quote
"Do you think the anger that led to these protests are justified?"
Justified 78%
Not Justified 18%

"Given the events around George Floyd, including the burning on a police precinct is..."
Justified 54%
Not Justified 38%

National @MonmouthPoll
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:35:30 PM
Protesters get soldiers to take a knee: https://twitter.com/GadiNBC/status/1267945648705298433.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 07:47:02 PM
QuoteLawmakers Begin Bipartisan Push to Cut Off Police Access to Military-Style Gear
The effort to end a program transferring surplus military equipment from the Pentagon to the police reflects a revived bipartisan concern about excessive use of force by law enforcement.

Catie Edmondson
By Catie Edmondson
Published June 1, 2020
Updated June 2, 2020, 11:25 a.m. ET


WASHINGTON — Republicans and Democrats in Congress have begun a new push to shut down a Pentagon program that transfers military weaponry to local law enforcement departments, as bipartisan urgency builds to address the excessive use of force and the killings of unarmed black Americans by the police.

With protests turning violent across the country, lawmakers are scrutinizing the Defense Department initiative — curtailed by former President Barack Obama but revived by President Trump — that furnishes police departments with equipment such as bayonets and grenade launchers. The move comes after several nights when officers wearing riot gear have been documented using pepper spray and rubber bullets on protesters, bystanders and journalists, often without warning or seemingly unprovoked.

The push stands in stark contrast to the reaction of Mr. Trump, who has often encouraged rough tactics by law enforcement and spent Monday complaining privately to governors that they were not handling protesters aggressively enough.

"Mayors and governors must establish an overwhelming presence until the violence is quelled," Mr. Trump said in remarks from the Rose Garden on Monday evening. "If a city or state refuses to take the actions necessary to defend the life and property of their residents, then I will deploy the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them."


On Capitol Hill, however, where Republicans often take their cues from the president, most lawmakers had a different message as they focused on the immediate catalyst for the protests: George Floyd, a black man in Minneapolis who was killed after a police officer knelt on his neck for a prolonged period.

"In no world whatsoever should arresting a man for an alleged minor infraction involve a police officer putting his knee on the man's neck for nine minutes while he cries out 'I can't breathe' and then goes silent," Senator Mitch McConnell, Republican of Kentucky and the majority leader, said on Monday. "Our nation cannot deafen itself to the anger, the pain and the frustration of black Americans. Our nation needs to hear this."


Top lawmakers in both parties and on both sides of the Capitol moved quickly last week to announce their intention to hold hearings on the use of excessive force by law enforcement and racial violence.

Senator Brian Schatz, Democrat of Hawaii, who has long pressed to limit the transfer of military-grade equipment to police departments, announced that he would move to include an amendment in the must-pass annual defense policy bill to shut down the program entirely.

"It is clear that many police departments are being outfitted as if they are going to war, and it is not working in terms of maintaining the peace," Mr. Schatz said in an interview. "This is not the only thing we need to do, but as our country sees these images on television that remind us of some countries far, far away, it's time to recalibrate this program. Just because the Department of Defense has excess weaponry doesn't mean it will be put to good use."

Doug Stafford, Senator Rand Paul's chief strategist, responded on Sunday night to Mr. Schatz's idea: "We've being doing this one for years. Happy to help," he wrote on Twitter. Mr. Paul has also been a longtime proponent of the demilitarization of local police and has previously teamed with Mr. Schatz to reform the Pentagon program, known as 1033.

It is unclear how much support Mr. Schatz's measure could receive in the Republican-controlled Senate. But in the House, Representative Ruben Gallego, Democrat of Arizona and a former Marine, said on Monday that he would introduce similar legislation, opening up the possibility that the measure could find additional traction in making its way into the final defense bill.

"As a combat veteran and proud Marine, very little of my equipment or training was relevant to policing Phoenix or other American communities," Mr. Gallego said. "Our neighborhoods aren't war zones."

The program was created in the 1990s in an effort to offload surplus military equipment and aid police departments during the war on drugs. It expanded in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks but came under heavy scrutiny in the aftermath of a string of high-profile deaths of black men at the hands of the police, including the shooting of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old, by a white police officer in Ferguson, Mo., in 2014.

In response to stark images of heavily armed police confronting unarmed protesters in armored vehicles in Ferguson, Mr. Obama placed limits on that program in 2015, restricting the transfer of weapons, including battering rams and explosives, from the Pentagon to local police. The Pentagon reported in 2017 that 126 tracked armored vehicles, 138 grenade launchers and 1,623 bayonets had been returned since Mr. Obama prohibited their transfer.

But Mr. Trump rescinded those restrictions in 2017, opening the flow of equipment to police departments. He argued the gear was necessary for officers to protect themselves and their communities.

On his call with governors on Monday, the president appeared to applaud the National Guard's handling of the riots in Minneapolis, pointedly remarking on their use of tear gas.

"They just walked right down the street, knocking them out with tear gas, tear gas," Mr. Trump said. "These guys, they were running."

Secretary of Defense Mark T. Esper used military language on the same call with governors, telling them, "we need to dominate the battle space," and that they would have his full support.

Senator Cory Booker, Democrat of New Jersey, on Monday laid out a framework for a series of reforms he said he hoped the Senate would take up. It included creating a national police misconduct registry, incentivizing states to adopt policies banning the use of chokeholds and reforming a legal doctrine known as qualified immunity that shields police officers from being held legally liable for damages sought by citizens whose constitutional rights were violated.

"Cities are literally on fire with the pain and anguish wrought by the violence visited upon black and brown bodies," Mr. Booker said. "There's no one singular policy change that will fix this issue tomorrow. We need an entire set of holistic reforms to improve police training and practices, and ensure greater accountability and transparency."

Representative Justin Amash, Independent of Michigan, said he would introduce a similar measure to strike down qualified immunity.

A pattern of "egregious police misconduct" has continued, Mr. Amash said in a letter to colleagues, "because police are legally, politically and culturally insulated from consequences for violating the rights of the people whom they have sworn to serve. This must change so that these incidents of brutality stop happening."

I bolded the Mitch McConell quote, because it's interesting to me that he seems to be able to acknowledge what's happening and isn't making looting the narrative. NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/politics/police-military-gear.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/politics/police-military-gear.html)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 07:51:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:35:30 PM
Protesters get soldiers to take a knee: https://twitter.com/GadiNBC/status/1267945648705298433.

Are these guys National Guard? Whoever they are, good job them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 07:53:42 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2020, 06:37:27 PM
Critical thinking is what makes the cop's version of events in the Michael Brown case (as in many others), not believable.

No, that's magical thinking.  We can only deal with the information we have, not the information we wish we had.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:59:04 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 07:47:02 PM
I bolded the Mitch McConell quote, because it's interesting to me that he seems to be able to acknowledge what's happening and isn't making looting the narrative. NY Times.
In the long run it would be much more helpful if Mitch didn't know when to fold them.  Sure, he knows this hand is hopeless, and some concessions will be made, so they may as well be made gracefully to make it go away quicker.  Once this passes, though, he'll be back at work putting the firewall against police accountability on the benches.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 02, 2020, 08:06:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 07:59:04 PM
In the long run it would be much more helpful if Mitch didn't know when to fold them.  Sure, he knows this hand is hopeless, and some concessions will be made, so they may as well be made gracefully.  Once this passes, though, he'll be back at work putting the firewall against police accountability on the benches.

I'm sure you are correct, I don't imagine for a moment Moscow Mitch has had a Road to Damascus moment.

Heres Dubya:

QuoteIt remains a shocking failure that many African Americans, especially young African American men, are harassed and threatened in their own country. It is a strength when protesters, protected by responsible law enforcement, march for a better future. This tragedy — in a long series of similar tragedies — raises a long overdue question: How do we end systemic racism in our society?

https://www.bushcenter.org/ (https://www.bushcenter.org/)

I know hes practically a libtard by todays savage standards of conservatism, but I still find it encouraging that he's not talking about looting.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 02, 2020, 08:13:23 PM
QuoteDefense Secretary Mark Esper says he had no advance notice before President Donald Trump led him and other senior administration officials to St. John's Episcopal Church for a widely criticized photo-op.

"I thought I was going to do two things: to see some damage and to talk to the troops," Esper said in an exclusive interview with NBC News on Tuesday night.

Esper said he believed they were going to observe the vandalized bathroom in Lafayette Park.

"I didn't know where I was going," Esper said. "I wanted to see how much damage actually happened."

SecDef in CYA  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 08:17:52 PM
:unsure: I think you get put on sex offender registry for that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 08:27:06 PM
No curfew in Portland tonight. The mayor admitted that it was ineffective and caused more harm than good.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on June 02, 2020, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 02, 2020, 05:44:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2020, 05:38:34 PM
Last time it was invoked was 1992, in California during the Rodney King riots, at Democratic governor Pete Wilson's request.

Wilson is a Republican
lol I don't know how anyone would confuse Pete Wilson as a Democrat
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 02, 2020, 08:35:06 PM
Hong Kong never implemented a curfew, despite a year of riots.  People who are going to break laws anyway won't care about breaking curfews.  A better way to reduce the number of people on the streets is to stop the public transports after a certain hour. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 02, 2020, 08:44:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 08:27:06 PM
No curfew in Portland tonight. The mayor admitted that it was ineffective and caused more harm than good.

Quitters
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 08:48:17 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 02, 2020, 08:44:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 02, 2020, 08:27:06 PM
No curfew in Portland tonight. The mayor admitted that it was ineffective and caused more harm than good.

Quitters

This whole debacle has kind of made the decision for me to not vote for our current mayor. I think he's been an absolute ass during the whole thing. He's completely tone-deaf to the needs of the African-American community in Portland.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 02, 2020, 09:04:36 PM
Much smaller city in Santa Cruz, but here the Mayor and the Chief of Police met with the demonstrators, talked with them, then knelt.  The Chief has publicly said that officers who stand by and let other officers commit crimes are committing it as well.

Tense, as you might think, but not violent.  Less violent then the Grad Student strikes earlier this year.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 02, 2020, 09:12:32 PM
Former Under Secretary of Defense resigned from the Defense Science Board (not sure what this is?) with a scathing letter:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true

CIA veterans who monitored crackdowns abroad see troubling parallels in Trump's handling of protestshttps://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/cia-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-troubling-parallels-in-trump-handling-of-protests/2020/06/02/7ab210b8-a4f6-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 09:20:53 PM
Could it be the time Trump's incredible run of luck runs out, and Republicans are forced to defy him faster than he can backtrack?  I don't think this war is winnable for Trump when NASCAR drivers start tagging #BlackLivesMatter. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 09:23:35 PM
Defense Science Board is a group of (generally retired) science experts/"wise men" who oversee technical research programs for DoD.  A program manager will go to them (there are a bunch of subcommittees that do the actual work) to get their approval to declare a major-program R&D milestone has been met. I remember helping brief the DSB on the stealth surface ship program when the Navy wanted to move it from Demonstration and Validation to actual engineering and development, for instance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 09:26:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 09:20:53 PM
Could it be the time Trump's incredible run of luck runs out, and Republicans are forced to defy him faster than he can backtrack?  I don't think this war is winnable for Trump when NASCAR drivers start tagging #BlackLivesMatter.
Which ones?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 02, 2020, 09:32:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 02, 2020, 09:23:35 PM
Defense Science Board is a group of (generally retired) science experts/"wise men" who oversee technical research programs for DoD.  A program manager will go to them (there are a bunch of subcommittees that do the actual work) to get their approval to declare a major-program R&D milestone has been met. I remember helping brief the DSB on the stealth surface ship program when the Navy wanted to move it from Demonstration and Validation to actual engineering and development, for instance.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 09:26:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 02, 2020, 09:20:53 PM
Could it be the time Trump's incredible run of luck runs out, and Republicans are forced to defy him faster than he can backtrack?  I don't think this war is winnable for Trump when NASCAR drivers start tagging #BlackLivesMatter.
Which ones?
Upon closer inspection, only Tyler Reddick was the one who actually used the tag directly.  Ty Dillon and Bubba Wallace also tried to say something meaningful.  Some other were more cautious and milquetoast, but by NASCAR standards even that is earth-shattering.  https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2020/06/02/bubba-wallace-ty-dillon-open-up-in-insightful-instagram-live-discussion/ .  They had a driver use the N-word as a mike check not too long ago.

I wish Dale Earnhardt Jr. had the balls to come out of the closet as a liberal already.  Yes, he'll lose some of his fans who even by NASCAR standards are not too progressive, but if there's ever a time to do something good with your popularity, now would be it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2020, 11:20:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 02, 2020, 05:43:31 PM
The town was fairly well off before the riots. :mellow:

Working as designed. Rise against the system, get punished by the system's built in mechanisms.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2020, 11:37:40 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2020, 07:32:24 PM
Eye popping numbers on that second question. Never would have imagined so many yes votes. The nation is radicalizing in real time.

https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1267941135521067011
Quote
"Do you think the anger that led to these protests are justified?"
Justified 78%
Not Justified 18%

"Given the events around George Floyd, including the burning on a police precinct is..."
Justified 54%
Not Justified 38%

National @MonmouthPoll

radicalized or simply rejecting white nationalist right wing extremism?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 03, 2020, 12:01:32 AM
https://youtu.be/-PvposKcL10

Observe the car on the left of the screen as the police walk by.

Totally normal behavior.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 12:37:25 AM
 :mad:

https://twitter.com/carterforva/status/1268045565499228160
QuoteAnother video of police in DC spraying a TV cameraman with pepper spray when there's literally nobody else near him and it's obvious he's allowed to be there because of the enormous CNN camera on his shoulder.

If these cops will blatantly assault a TV news crew live on the air, imagine what they've been doing to people when there are no cameras around.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 12:49:46 AM
Germany's main weekly news talkshow talked about racism yesterday. They were widely criticized for not inviting any person of color. When called out on it, the host tweeted that they also wanted to cover Corona.

... so? POC can't discuss Corona? :unsure:

The patronizing tone of the tweet didn't help. ("Let's all just watch the show first, and then we can discuss. Shall we do it that way? ;) " my translation doesn't quite capture the tone)

OTOH they have members of AfD in on a regular basis for pretty much any topic under the sun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 12:59:41 AM
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/politics/congress-republican-reaction-trump-church/index.html

QuoteTop Republican senators defend Trump's church photo-op after peaceful protesters cleared out

[...]

Sen. John Cornyn, a member of the GOP leadership team, said the protesters had to be cleared out "for security purposes" since Trump was "walking over to the church" and they were asked to clear "but refused to do so."

"So obviously, it was a necessary security measure," Cornyn told CNN. Cornyn rejected the notion that they were acting peacefully since they can't "ignore what law enforcement officers are telling them to do for the security of the president or anybody else."

Asked if the President should have gone to the church for a photo-op that led to tear gas and other measures to be used on the protesters, Cornyn criticized the media and others who are "never going to find any good or any positive development in anything. So you can characterize it the way you want, but obviously the President is free to go where he wants and to hold up a Bible if he wants," calling it a "civil message."

Sen. Chuck Grassley, the most senior Republican in the Senate, told CNN that peaceful protesters have the right to demonstrate but he didn't know the extent to which the "police might expect violence from some of the people -- maybe 5% of the people -- and that could be a potential problem, the answer would be, it's OK" to clear them out with force.

Grassley defended Trump's move to go to St. John's Church, citing the fire that protesters set to the church's premises the night before.

"We expect leadership from our President and particularly in times like this," Grassley said Tuesday. "And I think that when there was destruction to a church or any other historical thing that America would put great confidence in that should not be destroyed, I think a president ought to bring attention to that terrorist activity, and go there and do ... what he did last night."

Asked about the fact that the protesters were acting peacefully, Grassley said: "It's all assumed to be peaceful until someone that's got a terrorist activity or a rioting activity, you don't know that until it happens. So I don't know if they could have known that."

[...]

Sen. Marco Rubio, the acting chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, was asked if he had any issues with the use of tear gas against the protesters on Monday evening. "No, given what we've seen the last few nights in front of the White House -- incredibly dangerous and violent situations."

Rubio, a Florida Republican, also disputed the assertion that the protesters were cleared out for the Trump photo-op in front of the church, noting that the 7 p.m. ET curfew was drawing near.
Rubio said the protesters were "professional agitators."

"They know the police have to move forward on them, that will trigger the use of tear gas and it plays right into the imagery that they want. ... That wasn't even a protest. It was a provocation that was created deliberately for national television."

Sen. Shelley Moore Capito, a West Virginia Republican, called it a "strong move" for Trump to go to the church and "walk out in public." She added the use of tear gas "strikes me as not right" but added "those are decisions are made by the security people."

[...]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 01:12:04 AM
Ah yes authoritarian John Cornyn, you have no rights to him. He is why I consider Ted Cruz the good Texas senator.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Nothing to see, just protesters getting boxed in by police and liberally pelted with teargas, flashbangs, etc.

https://twitter.com/katie_levans/status/1268004903257100302?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 01:17:46 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZkCnO0VAAAlw3E?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 03, 2020, 01:25:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 03, 2020, 12:01:32 AM
https://youtu.be/-PvposKcL10 (https://youtu.be/-PvposKcL10)

Observe the car on the left of the screen as the police walk by.

Totally normal behavior.


Well, I'm ashamed.  What's really bothering me is some of things I've felt during these riots.  Feelings I'm ashamed of having.  Stuff I can't even write out of fear that some local yockel will connect it to me and then try to burn my house down.  I was raised to respect law enforcement.  I even thought I might want to try that field myself and in college took a course on law enforcement.  I see these videos and I'm not seeing cops anymore.  I'm seeing a street gang in blue.

I can't decide if there is something really fucking wrong with me or there is something really fucking wrong with this country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 01:44:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 01:12:04 AM
Ah yes authoritarian John Cornyn, you have no rights to him. He is why I consider Ted Cruz the good Texas senator.

Texas doing us proud

https://twitter.com/TwinklingTania/status/1267930761019064320
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 02:20:33 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 01:44:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 01:12:04 AM
Ah yes authoritarian John Cornyn, you have no rights to him. He is why I consider Ted Cruz the good Texas senator.

Texas doing us proud

https://twitter.com/TwinklingTania/status/1267930761019064320

Covid-19: am I a joke to you?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 02:24:58 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 02:20:33 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 01:44:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 01:12:04 AM
Ah yes authoritarian John Cornyn, you have no rights to him. He is why I consider Ted Cruz the good Texas senator.

Texas doing us proud

https://twitter.com/TwinklingTania/status/1267930761019064320

Covid-19: am I a joke to you?

Yeah, there's probably going to be a huge spike in cases two weeks from now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 03, 2020, 03:27:36 AM
I'm seeing a fascinating tendency for mono style all protestors are looters smearing with this latest round of protests
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 03, 2020, 03:37:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 03, 2020, 03:27:36 AM
I'm seeing a fascinating tendency for mono style all protestors are looters smearing with this latest round of protests

That's fairly standard.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 03:42:05 AM
"Don't kill them, but hit them hard!"
https://twitter.com/Bishop_Krystal/status/1268009974170451968?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 03:44:21 AM
https://twitter.com/EdFelten/status/1267838832298393602

QuoteEd Felten
@EdFelten
Very relieved that the unexploded flash-bang grenade that my daughter found and innocently picked up this morning didn't explode in her face. Beyond angry that it was left on the streets of our capital city.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZhEkgXWkAASrgq?format=jpg&name=small
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 04:42:26 AM
German MP for the AfD on Twitter:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZhEpO1WsAAOsSa?format=jpg&name=small)

"Events in the #USA show into what dead end multicultural immigration countries lead. Violence, death, security forces armed to the teeth. We must be spared such a state of affairs. For a peaceful Germany. Therefore, #AfD."

:x
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 05:16:15 AM
Since when did African-Americans immigrate to the US? They were fuckin' kidnapped.


https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1268122021369655297
Six Atlanta police officers will face charges for an incident in which they tased two college students and removed them from their car during protests
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 06:13:17 AM
https://twitter.com/The_Real_Fly/status/1268054038744125440?s=20

"If you do not move, you will be dead!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 03, 2020, 06:39:28 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/03/donald-trump-church-photo-op-evangelicals

Quote'He wears the armor of God': evangelicals hail Trump's church photo op

No one accuses Donald Trump of subtlety. When the US president raised a Bible overhead on Monday evening outside St John's Episcopal church in Washington DC, the sign was unmistakable: an appeal to his evangelical base for loyalty, as protests and riots roared across America.

Not every Christian answered the call. The Rev Gini Gerbasi, an Episcopal priest, said police used teargas to drive her and others from St John's before Trump's appearance. "They turned holy ground into a battleground," she told Religion News Service.

But many of Trump's evangelical supporters, far from Washingtons political stage, saw the move as a victory in a world rife with evil.

"My whole family was flabbergasted," said Benjamin Horbowy, 37.

The Horbowys had gathered in Tallahassee, Florida, to watch live as Trump walked from the White House to St John's. "My mother just shouted out, 'God give him strength! He's doing a Jericho walk!'"

A Jericho walk, in some evangelical circles, refers to the biblical book of Joshua, where God commanded the Israelites to walk seven times around the opposing city of Jericho, whose walls then came crashing down.

Horbowy already supported Trump politically – he heads the local chapter of a pro- Trump motorcycle club and is campaigning for a seat in Florida's state senate – but when Trump lifted the Bible, Horbowy and his family felt overcome spiritually.

"My mother started crying. She comes from Pentecostal background, and she started speaking in tongues. I haven't heard her speak in tongues in years," he said. "I thought, look at my president! He's establishing the Lord's kingdom in the world."


Did he feel that conflicted with the Gospel of John, where Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world"?

"Well," Horbowy said, "that's a philosophical question."

After watching Trump's gesture, Horbowy changed his Facebook profile photo to one of Trump outside St John's, with added rays of light emanating from the Bible. "It was the coolest thing he could do. What more could he do, wear blue jeans and ride in on a horse?" he said.

The catalysts for the protests was the killing of 46-year-old George Floyd by Minneapolis police. Asked about that, Horbowy said, "There's a Bible verse that says we shouldn't talk about evil things. We can just say, 'There's evil' and move on."

...


:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 03, 2020, 06:40:57 AM
Talk about people needing to be locked up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 03, 2020, 06:43:26 AM
:hmm:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/benito850strong_my-dad-defected-communism-and-i-dont-want-activity-6585259166967881729-Me78
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 06:48:18 AM
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1268146945551458304
QuoteDenver police officer fired over "let's start a riot" photo
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 03, 2020, 07:18:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 03, 2020, 06:48:18 AM
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1268146945551458304
QuoteDenver police officer fired over "let's start a riot" photo

Unlike the Hill, Buzzfeed has gone with name and shame:

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2020-06/2/22/asset/6c6aaf9cfe25/sub-buzz-1086-1591135965-3.jpg?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 03, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:22:12 PM
This evening :blink:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZi9j5uXQAU1FeA?format=jpg&name=small)

Them some of my USAF homies, so it cannot be too serious.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 03, 2020, 09:32:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 03, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 02, 2020, 07:22:12 PM
This evening :blink:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZi9j5uXQAU1FeA?format=jpg&name=small)

Them some of my USAF homies, so it cannot be too serious.  :P

No AC or padded chairs. Do they get bonus hardship pay?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 01:17:46 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZkCnO0VAAAlw3E?format=jpg&name=small)

:pinch: :pinch:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:48:06 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2020, 01:25:20 AM
Well, I'm ashamed.  What's really bothering me is some of things I've felt during these riots.  Feelings I'm ashamed of having.  Stuff I can't even write out of fear that some local yockel will connect it to me and then try to burn my house down.  I was raised to respect law enforcement.  I even thought I might want to try that field myself and in college took a course on law enforcement.  I see these videos and I'm not seeing cops anymore.  I'm seeing a street gang in blue.

I can't decide if there is something really fucking wrong with me or there is something really fucking wrong with this country.

Nothing wrong with you, my friend. :console:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 03, 2020, 06:40:57 AM
Talk about people needing to be locked up.

I bet he's elected, instead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 09:55:42 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 01:17:46 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZkCnO0VAAAlw3E?format=jpg&name=small)

:pinch: :pinch:
It's a fake ad from many years ago, it's not exactly a Freudian slip.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Is that a real picture with the fake ad, though? Because if so...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:01:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Is that a real picture with the fake ad, though? Because if so...
I'm sure it's a real picture, there are cops on Wall Street, and there are banks.  So what, it's a made up ad slogan deliberately designed to sound callous.  It's like going to a protest with "I'm with stupid" sign, and then crowing about an ownage photo that results.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 03, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
Poor TD bank.

Although my company works with them and they're a pain in the ass, so maybe I shouldn't feel bad for them
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 03, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
Poor TD bank.

Although my company works with them and they're a pain in the ass, so maybe I shouldn't feel bad for them

Everyone now knows they are open 7 days - which seven is unclear though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 10:32:15 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:01:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Is that a real picture with the fake ad, though? Because if so...
I'm sure it's a real picture, there are cops on Wall Street, and there are banks.  So what, it's a made up ad slogan deliberately designed to sound callous.  It's like going to a protest with "I'm with stupid" sign, and then crowing about an ownage photo that results.

It's a fake for a fictional (parody) TV show company, right?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:01:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Is that a real picture with the fake ad, though? Because if so...
I'm sure it's a real picture, there are cops on Wall Street, and there are banks.  So what, it's a made up ad slogan deliberately designed to sound callous.  It's like going to a protest with "I'm with stupid" sign, and then crowing about an ownage photo that results.

I don't know why I'm bothering....

... no, I'm not going to. Okay, DG. Thank you for your very insightful response.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 10:37:42 AM
I feel like this is a bad thing - but no doubt Barr is loving it - is that wrong?
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/george-floyd-police-brutality-protests-government
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:38:19 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 10:32:15 AM
It's a fake for a fictional (parody) TV show company, right?
That's what I gather.  I didn't know about it until today, I just googled the security company name to find out whether there is one out there that is so usefully tone deaf.  Shockingly it wasn't a real security company, just one on TV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 10:38:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:01:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Is that a real picture with the fake ad, though? Because if so...
I'm sure it's a real picture, there are cops on Wall Street, and there are banks.  So what, it's a made up ad slogan deliberately designed to sound callous.  It's like going to a protest with "I'm with stupid" sign, and then crowing about an ownage photo that results.

I don't know why I'm bothering....

... no, I'm not going to. Okay, DG. Thank you for your very insightful response.

:yes:

DG has entered Grumbler territory.  Most of the time, not worth the time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

Pic of the cops smiling in front of the ad is from 2012.

https://mobile.twitter.com/reclaimuc/status/247896374107054080
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 03, 2020, 10:41:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 10:37:42 AM
I feel like this is a bad thing - but no doubt Barr is loving it - is that wrong?
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/george-floyd-police-brutality-protests-government

Don't worry, the 2a people, concerned about government overreach and tyranny will step in to protest this nonsense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

So, in short, it could be a real photo. Which was my question.

Thank you, Malthus.

Perfect photo if it is real.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:43:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:01:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Is that a real picture with the fake ad, though? Because if so...
I'm sure it's a real picture, there are cops on Wall Street, and there are banks.  So what, it's a made up ad slogan deliberately designed to sound callous.  It's like going to a protest with "I'm with stupid" sign, and then crowing about an ownage photo that results.

I don't know why I'm bothering....

... no, I'm not going to. Okay, DG. Thank you for your very insightful response.
Oh, drop this act already.  Don't make it sound like you were about to say something profound, but then realized that I am just too far gone to bother with.  It may work for you or CC if you occasionally actually manage to put out something profound out there that stands up to scrutiny, but you're not there yet.

A manufactured ownage meme photo is not a real ownage photo worthy of a :pinch:, whether it comes from Syt's sisters or Syt himself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: fromtia on June 03, 2020, 10:41:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 10:37:42 AM
I feel like this is a bad thing - but no doubt Barr is loving it - is that wrong?
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/george-floyd-police-brutality-protests-government

Don't worry, the 2a people, concerned about government overreach and tyranny will step in to protest this nonsense.

The sensible response would be to repurpose an existing federal agency to investigate abuses by the police, and not just in the extraordinary circumstances of the ongoing protests, but all the time.

Sadly, this step seems impossible with the current Federal government.

The only possible solution is a political one, with a new government.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

So, in short, it could be a real photo. Which was my question.

Thank you, Malthus.

Perfect photo if it is real.

It appears to be a real photo, albeit from eight years ago.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:48:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 10:43:15 AM
Oh, drop this act already.  Don't make it sound like you were about to say something profound, but then realized that I am just too far gone to bother with.  It may work for you or CC if you occasionally actually manage to put out something profound out there that stands up to scrutiny, but you're not there yet.

A manufactured ownage meme photo is not a real ownage photo worthy of a :pinch:, whether it comes from Syt's sisters or Syt himself.

And here is why I didn't bother...

I was actually going to clarify my question, but realized that you didn't actually care and would just use it as another excuse to pretend to be superior and brilliant. :)

Thanks for making my point for me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:52:38 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

So, in short, it could be a real photo. Which was my question.

Thank you, Malthus.

Perfect photo if it is real.

It appears to be a real photo, albeit from eight years ago.

Still funny. Thank you, Malthus.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 10:55:42 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

Pic of the cops smiling in front of the ad is from 2012.

https://mobile.twitter.com/reclaimuc/status/247896374107054080

Careful.  You are using evidence and logic.  If you keep that up, CC will accuse you of "entering Grumbler territory."  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:03:03 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:46:02 AM
The sensible response would be to repurpose an existing federal agency to investigate abuses by the police, and not just in the extraordinary circumstances of the ongoing protests, but all the time.

Sadly, this step seems impossible with the current Federal government.

The only possible solution is a political one, with a new government.

Yeah, it is weird that the DEA would be dragged into this.  First of all, they deal only with federal crimes, which the acts attributed to the protesters don't seem to fall into, and second, they often claim to have insufficient resources to pursue their primary job, so it makes no sense for them to seek to take on a new job that only makes the lack of resources issue worse.  You are correct that the solution can only be political, but I hope that part of the cure is to track down the political appointees that are empire-building and make sure that their actions come to public light.  Jumping on your horse so you can go off and join the posse doesn't seem the best move when your barn is burning down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:09:12 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

So, in short, it could be a real photo. Which was my question.

Thank you, Malthus.

Perfect photo if it is real.

It appears to be a real photo, albeit from eight years ago.

Plato wrote real works about fictional exchanges some years ago, but they still convey a message that is relevant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:10:39 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 10:55:42 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

Pic of the cops smiling in front of the ad is from 2012.

https://mobile.twitter.com/reclaimuc/status/247896374107054080

Careful.  You are using evidence and logic.  If you keep that up, CC will accuse you of "entering Grumbler territory."  :lol:

No, Malthus never posts like you.  Time to put you back on ignore for a while.  Good bye.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:03:03 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:46:02 AM
The sensible response would be to repurpose an existing federal agency to investigate abuses by the police, and not just in the extraordinary circumstances of the ongoing protests, but all the time.

Sadly, this step seems impossible with the current Federal government.

The only possible solution is a political one, with a new government.

Yeah, it is weird that the DEA would be dragged into this.  First of all, they deal only with federal crimes, which the acts attributed to the protesters don't seem to fall into, and second, they often claim to have insufficient resources to pursue their primary job, so it makes no sense for them to seek to take on a new job that only makes the lack of resources issue worse.  You are correct that the solution can only be political, but I hope that part of the cure is to track down the political appointees that are empire-building and make sure that their actions come to public light.  Jumping on your horse so you can go off and join the posse doesn't seem the best move when your barn is burning down.

Didn't the head of the DEA come out and say, basically, "Nah, fam. Not our beef." ?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:03:03 AM
Yeah, it is weird that the DEA would be dragged into this.  First of all, they deal only with federal crimes, which the acts attributed to the protesters don't seem to fall into, and second, they often claim to have insufficient resources to pursue their primary job, so it makes no sense for them to seek to take on a new job that only makes the lack of resources issue worse.  You are correct that the solution can only be political, but I hope that part of the cure is to track down the political appointees that are empire-building and make sure that their actions come to public light.  Jumping on your horse so you can go off and join the posse doesn't seem the best move when your barn is burning down.
I mean Barr has directed the Federal Bureau of Prisons to dispatch riot teams to DC and Miami. I'm not convinced everyone is sticking to their bailiwick.

As the article notes, they've seen this memo they don't know if other ones exist to other Federal law enforcement agencies.

Also I get that Nazi comparisons end arguments on the internet, but I've always thought there's a lot of "working towards Trump" in this administration. And this feels like part of that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:28:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:03:03 AM
Yeah, it is weird that the DEA would be dragged into this.  First of all, they deal only with federal crimes, which the acts attributed to the protesters don't seem to fall into, and second, they often claim to have insufficient resources to pursue their primary job, so it makes no sense for them to seek to take on a new job that only makes the lack of resources issue worse.  You are correct that the solution can only be political, but I hope that part of the cure is to track down the political appointees that are empire-building and make sure that their actions come to public light.  Jumping on your horse so you can go off and join the posse doesn't seem the best move when your barn is burning down.
I mean Barr has directed the Federal Bureau of Prisons to dispatch riot teams to DC and Miami. I'm not convinced everyone is sticking to their bailiwick.

As the article notes, they've seen this memo they don't know if other ones exist to other Federal law enforcement agencies.

Also I get that Nazi comparisons end arguments on the internet, but I've always thought there's a lot of "working towards Trump" in this administration. And this feels like part of that.

Plus, what exactly is bringing this activity to light going to do.  Everything else that was brought to light did not put an end to the abuses of power this administration engages in.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:38:24 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:10:39 AM
No, Malthus never posts like you.  Time to put you back on ignore for a while.  Good bye.

:lol:  You've left and come back so many times that this statement lacks all credibility.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
Didn't the head of the DEA come out and say, basically, "Nah, fam. Not our beef." ?

That's possible. I've only seen reports that the DoJ has authorized DEA to step in at the DEA's request.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:46:58 AM
Ok, so would Meri or CC please explain what is wrong with cops taking a group photo in front of a bank?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:52:17 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:46:58 AM
Ok, so would Meri or CC please explain what is wrong with cops taking a group photo in front of a bank?  :huh:

Did you read the advertisement prop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:03:03 AM
Yeah, it is weird that the DEA would be dragged into this.  First of all, they deal only with federal crimes, which the acts attributed to the protesters don't seem to fall into, and second, they often claim to have insufficient resources to pursue their primary job, so it makes no sense for them to seek to take on a new job that only makes the lack of resources issue worse.  You are correct that the solution can only be political, but I hope that part of the cure is to track down the political appointees that are empire-building and make sure that their actions come to public light.  Jumping on your horse so you can go off and join the posse doesn't seem the best move when your barn is burning down.
I mean Barr has directed the Federal Bureau of Prisons to dispatch riot teams to DC and Miami. I'm not convinced everyone is sticking to their bailiwick.

I certainly never expected Barr to keep out of this.  But the memo I have seen in Vanity fair certainly seems to me to be replying to a request from the DEA to be allowed to participate, which is what I find odd.

QuoteAlso I get that Nazi comparisons end arguments on the internet, but I've always thought there's a lot of "working towards Trump" in this administration. And this feels like part of that.

That could well be, but you'd think that peoples' sense of self-preservation would start kicking in at some point; getting close to an unpopular president who may only be around for a few more months doesn't seem like a survival strategy, unlike those who were working towards the fuhrer.

But the astonishing thing about the Trump administration, as your earlier article pointed out, is the number of people who had perfectly fine credentials as serious and civic-minded government officials and judges who have cravenly abandoned any pretense of adhering to their principals so that they can closely cleave to a president who is the antithesis of everything they used to believe in.  It's like he has the One Ring or something.  So, maybe you are correct in that they don't care about any consequences except the possibility that Trump will someday pat them on the head and say "good boy!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:46:58 AM
Ok, so would Meri or CC please explain what is wrong with cops taking a group photo in front of a bank?  :huh:

I don't think that this photo was taken by one of the cops.  It looks like they are a security detail for something happening in the bank (see officers in the background, facing the other way, and what looks like maybe a TV sound guy.

I think the picture is just serendipitous in that the photographer realized the potential for a photo with a message, and took it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 12:06:30 PM
I thought it was just a funny picture and reposted it. Considering the debate it sparked I wish I hadn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 12:11:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:52:17 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:46:58 AM
Ok, so would Meri or CC please explain what is wrong with cops taking a group photo in front of a bank?  :huh:

Did you read the advertisement prop?

So the only thing wrong with the image is the photoshopped message then? I agree.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 12:21:51 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 12:11:02 PM

So the only thing wrong with the image is the photoshopped message then? I agree.

:huh:  What photo are you talking about?  The one with the cops standing near the "Byzantium Security" ad isn't photoshopped, as the thread has made clear.  Maybe you are talking about some other photo, though, of police posing for something.  In that case, though, I don't see why you want Meri or CC to tell you anything about a photo they have not seen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:09:12 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Here's an article about the ad campaign - it's to drum up interest in a new TV series.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/09/byzantium-security-international/amp

So, in short, it could be a real photo. Which was my question.

Thank you, Malthus.

Perfect photo if it is real.

It appears to be a real photo, albeit from eight years ago.

Plato wrote real works about fictional exchanges some years ago, but they still convey a message that is relevant.

The photo here is amusing because smiling cops in front of this ad (real or not) appears to convey the message that the cops approve of it, and are happy to guard the 1% and not care about anyone else.

My guess is that the pic was serendipitous, that the cops were not even aware of the ad, and the photographer got a lucky shot with plenty of ironic value. 

However, assuming they were aware of it, and were posing deliberately with it, doing so now in the middle of a huge crisis over public confidence in policing would be very tone-deaf on their part, to say the least ...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 12:23:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
However, assuming they were aware of it, and were posing deliberately with it, doing so now in the middle of a huge crisis over public confidence in policing would be very tone-deaf on their part, to say the least ...

Photo was from 2012.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 12:23:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 12:23:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
However, assuming they were aware of it, and were posing deliberately with it, doing so now in the middle of a huge crisis over public confidence in policing would be very tone-deaf on their part, to say the least ...

Photo was from 2012.

I know - see upthread where I said as much.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
AP is reporting that the active-duty military forces sent to DC are starting to be pulled back to their home bases. The large protests have been all peaceful here since the initial rioting ebbed away, I think.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
AP is reporting that the active-duty military forces sent to DC are starting to be pulled back to their home bases.

So the Air Force is still out there?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
AP is reporting that the active-duty military forces sent to DC are starting to be pulled back to their home bases.

So the Air Force is still out there?

Don't forget Space Force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
AP is reporting that the active-duty military forces sent to DC are starting to be pulled back to their home bases.

So the Air Force is still out there?

Don't forget Space Force.

Dammit!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
AP is reporting that the active-duty military forces sent to DC are starting to be pulled back to their home bases.

So the Air Force is still out there?

Don't forget Space Force.

That show is not as good as I thought it would be, in particular for all the big-name talent they have. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 03, 2020, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 12:23:43 PM
I know - see upthread where I said as much.  ;)

I seem to recall that photo was from 2012
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 01:17:33 PM
2012 never actually happened. The Mayans were wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 01:19:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 01:17:33 PM
2012 never actually happened. The Mayans were wrong.

Some 1500 years ago, the Mayans predicted you would say that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 01:20:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 01:19:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 01:17:33 PM
2012 never actually happened. The Mayans were wrong.

Some 1500 years ago, the Mayans predicted you would say that.

OK that's actually spooky af.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 01:22:44 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 03, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
The photo here is amusing because smiling cops in front of this ad (real or not) appears to convey the message that the cops approve of it, and are happy to guard the 1% and not care about anyone else.

My guess is that the pic was serendipitous, that the cops were not even aware of the ad, and the photographer got a lucky shot with plenty of ironic value. 


That was my point. But clearly I'm an idiot for thinking so. :) It certainly, according to DG, didn't warrant the pinch face.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 03, 2020, 02:19:10 PM
The Youtube algorithm is a smart cookie, today it recommended me watching this episode on "The Broken Policing System" from Hasan Minhaj's show, from last September. It touches on many of the issues that need reform, some of which we mentioned over here. Training, virtual legal inmunity, attitudes, collusion with attorneys, the role of police unions in protecting their own...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:27:31 PM
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/george-floyd-officers-charges/index.html

QuoteAll four former officers involved in George Floyd's killing now face charges

(CNN)The former Minneapolis Police officer who pressed his knee into George Floyd's neck was charged with second-degree murder and the three other officers on scene during his killing are charged with aiding and abetting second-degree murder, according to court documents.

Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison's official announcement of the charges is expected to come Wednesday afternoon, more than a week after Floyd was killed while in police custody in Minneapolis, sparking nationwide protests that call for the end to police violence against black citizens.

The three other officers on scene, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and J. Alexander Kueng, are charged with aiding and abetting second-degree murder and aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter.

Chauvin, who had his knee pressed into Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes, had previously been charged with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. Lane and Keung, who helped restrain Floyd, and Thao, who stood near the others, were not initially charged.

Two autopsies on Floyd determined that he died by homicide. Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo fired the four officers and said they were "complicit" in Floyd's death. Floyd's family and protesters nationwide have called for them to be arrested and convicted for the killing.

According to the video and the criminal complaint, Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck as Floyd pleaded that he could not breathe, as witnesses protested that he was dying, and even as Lane twice asked to turn him onto his side. Still, Chauvin kept his knee on his neck for almost three minutes after Floyd became unresponsive, the complaint states.

Benjamin Crump, an attorney for the Floyd family, said on Twitter that the family was gratified with the new charges.

"FAMILY REACTION: This is a bittersweet moment. We are deeply gratified that (Ellison) took decisive action, arresting & charging ALL the officers involved in #GeorgeFloyd's death & upgrading the charge against Derek Chauvin to felony second-degree murder," he said.

Under Minnesota law, third-degree murder is defined as causing the death of a person "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind," without regard for life but without intent to kill.

Second-degree murder, a more serious charge, is defined as when a person causes the death of another "without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense," according to an amended criminal complaint.

Minnesota AG cautioned for patience

Ellison was appointed by Gov. Tim Walz to take over the case from Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman on Sunday.

A former Demoratic congressman, Ellison previously said that he had "every expectation" that charges will be filed against the officers and that he hoped they'd come soon. But on Monday, after taking over the case, he cautioned against a rush to judgment and said prosecutors will be careful and methodical in bringing charges.

"We are moving as expeditiously, quickly and effectively as we can," he said. "But I need to protect this prosecution. I am not going to create a situation where somebody can say this was a rush to judgement."

Police officers are rarely charged with crimes for violence against black men, and even in those rare cases, juries have repeatedly shown an unwillingness to convict. The list of such failed cases is long.

In 2017, for example, the Minnesota police officer who fatally shot Castile was found not guilty of second-degree manslaughter and intentional discharge of firearm that endangers safety.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 02:30:45 PM
Well that is good news. I guess we are on to the Grand Jury for indictments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 03, 2020, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 03, 2020, 02:19:10 PM
The Youtube algorithm is a smart cookie, today it recommended me watching this episode on "The Broken Policing System" from Hasan Minhaj's show, from last September. It touches on many of the issues that need reform, some of which we mentioned over here. Training, virtual legal inmunity, attitudes, collusion with attorneys, the role of police unions in protecting their own...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM)

I just get a bunch of Sesame Street and Baby Shark recommendations.
I really should create a separate account for my son's videos.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

QuoteSend In the Troops
The nation must restore order. The military stands ready.

By Tom Cotton
Mr. Cotton, a Republican, is a United States senator from Arkansas.


This week, rioters have plunged many American cities into anarchy, recalling the widespread violence of the 1960s.

New York City suffered the worst of the riots Monday night, as Mayor Bill de Blasio stood by while Midtown Manhattan descended into lawlessness. Bands of looters roved the streets, smashing and emptying hundreds of businesses. Some even drove exotic cars; the riots were carnivals for the thrill-seeking rich as well as other criminal elements.

Outnumbered police officers, encumbered by feckless politicians, bore the brunt of the violence. In New York State, rioters ran over officers with cars on at least three occasions. In Las Vegas, an officer is in "grave" condition after being shot in the head by a rioter. In St. Louis, four police officers were shot as they attempted to disperse a mob throwing bricks and dumping gasoline; in a separate incident, a 77-year-old retired police captain was shot to death as he tried to stop looters from ransacking a pawnshop. This is "somebody's granddaddy," a bystander screamed at the scene.

Some elites have excused this orgy of violence in the spirit of radical chic, calling it an understandable response to the wrongful death of George Floyd. Those excuses are built on a revolting moral equivalence of rioters and looters to peaceful, law-abiding protesters. A majority who seek to protest peacefully shouldn't be confused with bands of miscreants.

But the rioting has nothing to do with George Floyd, whose bereaved relatives have condemned violence. On the contrary, nihilist criminals are simply out for loot and the thrill of destruction, with cadres of left-wing radicals like antifa infiltrating protest marches to exploit Floyd's death for their own anarchic purposes.

These rioters, if not subdued, not only will destroy the livelihoods of law-abiding citizens but will also take more innocent lives. Many poor communities that still bear scars from past upheavals will be set back still further.

One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers. But local law enforcement in some cities desperately needs backup, while delusional politicians in other cities refuse to do what's necessary to uphold the rule of law.

The pace of looting and disorder may fluctuate from night to night, but it's past time to support local law enforcement with federal authority. Some governors have mobilized the National Guard, yet others refuse, and in some cases the rioters still outnumber the police and Guard combined. In these circumstances, the Insurrection Act authorizes the president to employ the military "or any other means" in "cases of insurrection, or obstruction to the laws."

This venerable law, nearly as old as our republic itself, doesn't amount to "martial law" or the end of democracy, as some excitable critics, ignorant of both the law and our history, have comically suggested. In fact, the federal government has a constitutional duty to the states to "protect each of them from domestic violence." Throughout our history, presidents have exercised this authority on dozens of occasions to protect law-abiding citizens from disorder. Nor does it violate the Posse Comitatus Act, which constrains the military's role in law enforcement but expressly excepts statutes such as the Insurrection Act.

For instance, during the 1950s and 1960s, Presidents Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson called out the military to disperse mobs that prevented school desegregation or threatened innocent lives and property. This happened in my own state. Gov. Orval Faubus, a racist Democrat, mobilized our National Guard in 1957 to obstruct desegregation at Little Rock Central High School. President Eisenhower federalized the Guard and called in the 101st Airborne in response. The failure to do so, he said, "would be tantamount to acquiescence in anarchy."

More recently, President George H.W. Bush ordered the Army's Seventh Infantry and 1,500 Marines to protect Los Angeles during race riots in 1992. He acknowledged his disgust at Rodney King's treatment — "what I saw made me sick" — but he knew deadly rioting would only multiply the victims, of all races and from all walks of life.

Not surprisingly, public opinion is on the side of law enforcement and law and order, not insurrectionists. According to a recent poll, 58 percent of registered voters, including nearly half of Democrats and 37 percent of African-Americans, would support cities' calling in the military to "address protests and demonstrations" that are in "response to the death of George Floyd." That opinion may not appear often in chic salons, but widespread support for it is fact nonetheless.

The American people aren't blind to injustices in our society, but they know that the most basic responsibility of government is to maintain public order and safety. In normal times, local law enforcement can uphold public order. But in rare moments, like ours today, more is needed, even if many politicians prefer to wring their hands while the country burns.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 02:49:11 PM
That second Asian cop on the video was the banality of evil personified.  While Chauvin was kneeling there on Floyd's neck and on his way to orgasming, the second cop was going out of his way to ignore the bystanders' pleas, and seemed to make it a point to not even take a quick look to see what's happening to the man on the ground.  He probably regarded just merely looking behind him as an intolerable concession that would undermine the cop solidarity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 02:55:16 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 02:49:11 PM
That second Asian cop on the video was the banality of evil personified.  While Chauvin was kneeling there on Floyd's neck and on his way to orgasming, the second cop was going out of his way to ignore the bystanders' pleas, and seemed to make it a point to not even take a quick look to see what's happening to the man on the ground.  He probably regarded just merely looking behind him as an intolerable concession that would undermine the cop solidarity.

I got the vibe from him that he felt outranked and out of place because he's park police and the other guys are regular city cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

That is not what the military is trained or equipt for. Surely the National Guard, which is more numerous anyway, should be sufficient.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

That is not what the military is trained or equipt for. Surely the National Guard, which is more numerous anyway, should be sufficient.

Actually after campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military does a lot of training for urban pacification and crowd management.  National Guard, on the other hand, does not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

That is not what the military is trained or equipt for. Surely the National Guard, which is more numerous anyway, should be sufficient.

Actually after campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military does a lot of training for urban pacification and crowd management.  National Guard, on the other hand, does not.

I suppose. I just feel really bad for the military. This is not what they signed up for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2020, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

That is not what the military is trained or equipt for. Surely the National Guard, which is more numerous anyway, should be sufficient.

Actually after campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military does a lot of training for urban pacification and crowd management.  National Guard, on the other hand, does not.

I suppose. I just feel really bad for the military. This is not what they signed up for.

The Soviet Union isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 12:11:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 11:52:17 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:46:58 AM
Ok, so would Meri or CC please explain what is wrong with cops taking a group photo in front of a bank?  :huh:

Did you read the advertisement prop?

So the only thing wrong with the image is the photoshopped message then? I agree.

If you read the thread, the image is not photoshopped.  And you kind of missed the point of it being posted.  Oh well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2020, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

That is not what the military is trained or equipt for. Surely the National Guard, which is more numerous anyway, should be sufficient.

Actually after campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military does a lot of training for urban pacification and crowd management.  National Guard, on the other hand, does not.

But I dont think any US military personnel have trained to pacify US cities filled with US citizens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
My mistake, I read that it was fake and jumped to conclusions. Carry on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 03, 2020, 03:48:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 03, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html

That is not what the military is trained or equipt for. Surely the National Guard, which is more numerous anyway, should be sufficient.

The National Guard only gives fascists a semi.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 04:02:04 PM
I did see an interesting observation by Nate Silver noting that in the active duty military about 40% support Trump and about 50% disapprove of him. But about 80% of police apparently support Trump. And that may be part of why we're where we are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 04:05:37 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 04:02:04 PM
I did see an interesting observation by Nate Silver noting that in the active duty military about 40% support Trump and about 50% disapprove of him. But about 80% of police apparently support Trump. And that may be part of why we're where we are.

Not a good week for cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 04:02:04 PM
I did see an interesting observation by Nate Silver noting that in the active duty military about 40% support Trump and about 50% disapprove of him. But about 80% of police apparently support Trump. And that may be part of why we're where we are.

I wonder how much of the US military normally support Republicans and how much that has dipped under Trump.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 03, 2020, 04:35:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 03, 2020, 04:02:04 PM
I did see an interesting observation by Nate Silver noting that in the active duty military about 40% support Trump and about 50% disapprove of him. But about 80% of police apparently support Trump. And that may be part of why we're where we are.
This is why I'm actually not that concerned about National Guard being put on the streets.  It would actually dilute the percentage of armed people in the streets that dehumanize the civilians.  I expect police to carry out illegal orders much more readily than I expect the military to do so.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
Didn't the head of the DEA come out and say, basically, "Nah, fam. Not our beef." ?

That's possible. I've only seen reports that the DoJ has authorized DEA to step in at the DEA's request.

My mistake. It was the Secretary of Defense.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 03, 2020, 06:06:32 PM
Quote"I have watched this week's unfolding events, angry and appalled," Mattis writes. "The words 'Equal Justice Under Law' are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." He goes on, "We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution."

James Mattis falls under spell of George Soros, becomes libtard, fails to expound on evils of looting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
I still don't understand why it's so evil to want to use force to stop rioters and looters, or even to acknowledge their existence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
I still don't understand why it's so evil to want to use force to stop rioters and looters, or even to acknowledge their existence.

Can you cite anyone here who thinks it's inappropriate to use force to stop rioters and looters?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 03, 2020, 06:46:33 PM
Welcome to the Resistance, Mad Dog.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
I still don't understand why it's so evil to want to use force to stop rioters and looters, or even to acknowledge their existence.

It isn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
I still don't understand why it's so evil to want to use force to stop rioters and looters, or even to acknowledge their existence.

It isn't.

I don't think you will convince him that it is not evil.  He's saying that he doesn't understand his position, not that he doesn't hold it.

Unless he's just throwing out a feeble strawman argument.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 07:21:21 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
I still don't understand why it's so evil to want to use force to stop rioters and looters, or even to acknowledge their existence.

Can you cite anyone here who thinks it's inappropriate to use force to stop rioters and looters?

Not that would say so using those exact words, but how else could someone be so opposed to using the national guard or military when it's obvious the local police are unable to handle the situation. Is it just because people don't like Trump's tone?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on June 03, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
Well the US Secretary of Defense made a fairly extraordinary statement, indirectly attacking Trumps wish to use armed US military forces.   :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 07:21:21 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
I still don't understand why it's so evil to want to use force to stop rioters and looters, or even to acknowledge their existence.

Can you cite anyone here who thinks it's inappropriate to use force to stop rioters and looters?

Not that would say so using those exact words, but how else could someone be so opposed to using the national guard or military when it's obvious the local police are unable to handle the situation. Is it just because people don't like Trump's tone?

It isn't obvious. Prove your point or stop trolling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 07:41:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 06:25:38 PM
Can you cite anyone here who thinks it's inappropriate to use force to stop rioters and looters?

Zoupa thinks people should get over looting.  Fromagia thinks it's praiseworthy that public figures don't mention looting.

There is some kind of either/or proposition going on.  If you "focus" on looting, if you spend "time and energy" talking about it, you're on the wrong side of the issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 07:44:55 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
It isn't obvious. Prove your point or stop trolling.

It is obvious. The riots and looting haven't stopped.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 07:47:02 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 07:41:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 06:25:38 PM
Can you cite anyone here who thinks it's inappropriate to use force to stop rioters and looters?

Zoupa thinks people should get over looting.  Fromagia thinks it's praiseworthy that public figures don't mention looting.

There is some kind of either/or proposition going on.  If you "focus" on looting, if you spend "time and energy" talking about it, you're on the wrong side of the issue.

If you focus on the looting then yeah, you have pretty much missed the point.  But nobody is saying that looting is to be promoted or protected.  The protest and the protesters should be promoted and protected.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 03, 2020, 07:47:37 PM
As has been said a gajilion times, it's mostly because people who want to spend time denouncing looters only want to spend time denouncing looters. If, indeed, it's the only thing that is *troubling you enough that you keep bringing it up, and want to insist on it over and over again* while police violence gets a passing meh, then yes - you are on the wrong side of the issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 07:49:53 PM
It is obvious that looting is wrong.  There, I said it again  :bowler:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 03, 2020, 07:53:39 PM
Go choke on poorly cooked noodles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 03, 2020, 07:56:18 PM
No justice, no peace!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:12:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 07:49:53 PM
It is obvious that looting is wrong.  There, I said it again  :bowler:

Well congrats. But you are also happy to label everybody protesting the PRC backed regime as a rioter whether they riot or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 07:47:02 PM
If you focus on the looting then yeah, you have pretty much missed the point.  But nobody is saying that looting is to be promoted or protected.  The protest and the protesters should be promoted and protected.

Distinguishing between peaceful protesters and rioters is dividing the American people, according to James Mattis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:17:23 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 07:44:55 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
It isn't obvious. Prove your point or stop trolling.

It is obvious. The riots and looting haven't stopped.

I don't see why the national guard are insufficient. The rioters are not weilding AK-47s or anything. The regular army is not to be used domestically for this kind of purpose.

But I do not know exactly what has or has not happened today.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 08:18:31 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 03, 2020, 07:47:37 PM
As has been said a gajilion times, it's mostly because people who want to spend time denouncing looters only want to spend time denouncing looters. If, indeed, it's the only thing that is *troubling you enough that you keep bringing it up, and want to insist on it over and over again* while police violence gets a passing meh, then yes - you are on the wrong side of the issue.

And herein lies the rub.  I haven't seen anyone bringing it up "over and over again," with the possible exception of mono.  What you perceive as only spending time denouncing looters I see as a few passing remarks about looting (I said it is bad, DGuller mentioned his Russian video blogger) and a great deal of reaction and emotional response.  DGuller brought up the virtuous human chain protecting a Target, which I interpreted as praise for the law abiding protestors and you took exception to that.  Most of the looting discussion here has not actually been about looting at all, it has been a meta-debate about mentioning looting at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:23:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:17:23 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 07:44:55 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
It isn't obvious. Prove your point or stop trolling.

It is obvious. The riots and looting haven't stopped.

I don't see why the national guard are insufficient. The rioters are not weilding AK-47s or anything. The regular army is not to be used domestically for this kind of purpose.

But I do not know exactly what has or has not happened today.

Not according to Trump.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:12:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 07:49:53 PM
It is obvious that looting is wrong.  There, I said it again  :bowler:

Well congrats. But you are also happy to label everybody protesting the PRC backed regime as a rioter whether they riot or not.

As I have explained in my thread many times, the so called peaceful ones provide financial, tactical, political, and moral support to the rioters.  They are accomplices.  They report the locations of police, deliberately hinder police movement, donate to the rioters etc.  So they are rioters in my book  :bowler:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 03, 2020, 08:26:16 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 03, 2020, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 03, 2020, 07:47:02 PM
If you focus on the looting then yeah, you have pretty much missed the point.  But nobody is saying that looting is to be promoted or protected.  The protest and the protesters should be promoted and protected.

Distinguishing between peaceful protesters and rioters is dividing the American people, according to James Mattis.

Actually, he said: "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers."  but it seems the distraction is too great.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:12:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 07:49:53 PM
It is obvious that looting is wrong.  There, I said it again  :bowler:

Well congrats. But you are also happy to label everybody protesting the PRC backed regime as a rioter whether they riot or not.

As I have explained in my thread many times, the so called peaceful ones provide financial, tactical, political, and moral support to the rioters.  They are accomplices.  They report the locations of police, deliberately hinder police movement, donate to the rioters etc.  So they are rioters in my book  :bowler:

Eh, there will always be elements like that. Nothing you can do about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:33:39 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:12:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 07:49:53 PM
It is obvious that looting is wrong.  There, I said it again  :bowler:

Well congrats. But you are also happy to label everybody protesting the PRC backed regime as a rioter whether they riot or not.

As I have explained in my thread many times, the so called peaceful ones provide financial, tactical, political, and moral support to the rioters.  They are accomplices.  They report the locations of police, deliberately hinder police movement, donate to the rioters etc.  So they are rioters in my book  :bowler:

Eh, there will always be elements like that. Nothing you can do about it.

Of course there is.  HK police has arrested 9k people so far  :showoff:  There is now a policy of arresting everybody in sight. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:37:39 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:33:39 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:12:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 07:49:53 PM
It is obvious that looting is wrong.  There, I said it again  :bowler:

Well congrats. But you are also happy to label everybody protesting the PRC backed regime as a rioter whether they riot or not.

As I have explained in my thread many times, the so called peaceful ones provide financial, tactical, political, and moral support to the rioters.  They are accomplices.  They report the locations of police, deliberately hinder police movement, donate to the rioters etc.  So they are rioters in my book  :bowler:

Eh, there will always be elements like that. Nothing you can do about it.

Of course there is.  HK police has arrested 9k people so far  :showoff:  There is now a policy of arresting everybody in sight.

And it will fix nothing. Only make it come back worse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:41:14 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:37:39 PM

And it will fix nothing. Only make it come back worse.

We'll see.  The application of the "arrest everybody in sight" policy has quieted things down a lot.  The crowds were in the millions last year.  Now they are in low thousands. 

And if that doesn't work, the National Security Law will  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:46:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:41:14 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:37:39 PM

And it will fix nothing. Only make it come back worse.

We'll see.  The application of the "arrest everybody in sight" policy has quieted things down a lot.  The crowds were in the millions last year.  Now they are in low thousands. 

And if that doesn't work, the National Security Law will  ;)

Keep telling yourself that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:46:05 PM


Keep telling yourself that.

Time will tell  :)  I remember all sorts of people predicting the demise of the party after Tiananmen.  It still looks strong to me after 30 years. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:46:05 PM


Keep telling yourself that.

Time will tell  :)  I remember all sorts of people predicting the demise of the party after Tiananmen.  It still looks strong to me after 30 years.

Still communists and still pieces of shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:50:24 PM
I don't remember that...but I do remember you announcing victory and going :showoff: for almost a year now yet there is no victory.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:50:41 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:46:05 PM


Keep telling yourself that.

Time will tell  :)  I remember all sorts of people predicting the demise of the party after Tiananmen.  It still looks strong to me after 30 years.

Still communists and still pieces of shit.

:lol:  That's not the point.  The point is they are still in power :contract:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:50:24 PM
I don't remember that...but I do remember you announcing victory and going :showoff: for almost a year now yet there is no victory.

There will be no "signing a peace treaty on the Missouri" type victory for sure.  Victory is when people give up, and many already have, judging from the size of the crowds.  We have not won yet, but we are getting there. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 08:53:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:50:24 PM
I don't remember that...but I do remember you announcing victory and going :showoff: for almost a year now yet there is no victory.


You guys are just feeding the troll.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:56:09 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:50:41 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 03, 2020, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:46:05 PM


Keep telling yourself that.

Time will tell  :)  I remember all sorts of people predicting the demise of the party after Tiananmen.  It still looks strong to me after 30 years.

Still communists and still pieces of shit.

:lol:  That's not the point.  The point is they are still in power :contract:



Still evil. And only still in power due to the absolute weakness and timidity of the people as a society.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 08:57:14 PM
So, I deliberately don't read his thread so that I don't have to deal with his bullshit. And yet here he is, bringing his bullshit into a thread that should have nothing to do with his dribble.

Please stop encouraging it here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 08:58:04 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2020, 08:53:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 03, 2020, 08:50:24 PM
I don't remember that...but I do remember you announcing victory and going :showoff: for almost a year now yet there is no victory.


You guys are just feeding the troll.

Yes
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 03, 2020, 09:01:01 PM
Quote"Probably the only thing Barack Obama and I have in common is that we both had the honor of firing Jim Mattis, the world's most overrated General," Trump wrote. "I asked for his letter of resignation, & felt great about it. His nickname was 'Chaos', which I didn't like, & changed it to 'Mad Dog.' His primary strength was not military, but rather personal public relations. I gave him a new life, things to do, and battles to win, but he seldom 'brought home the bacon'. I didn't like his 'leadership' style or much else about him, and many others agree. Glad he is gone!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 03, 2020, 09:05:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 07:41:43 PM


Fromagia thinks it's praiseworthy that public figures don't mention looting.



It's not that I think it's praiseworthy, it's that I think for my conservative friends here on Languish I'm drawing attention to some notable conservatives on the national stage who don't seem at all confused about what's happening. Mattis and Bush both specifically mention lawbreaking and looting but you'd have to have a wooden head to imagine that's what they think the primary problem is. They are explicit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2020, 09:50:01 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 03, 2020, 09:05:14 PM
It's not that I think it's praiseworthy, it's that I think for my conservative friends here on Languish I'm drawing attention to some notable conservatives on the national stage who don't seem at all confused about what's happening. Mattis and Bush both specifically mention lawbreaking and looting but you'd have to have a wooden head to imagine that's what they think the primary problem is. They are explicit.

Whereas your conservative friends obviously think looting is the primary problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 03, 2020, 11:14:26 PM
These guys were in the line in DC tonight. No badge, insignia, uniform, or identifying info. Rumors said they are corrections officers. I dunno, I'm no expert but it seems a bad idea for a prison guard to have a knife strapped to his chest.
https://twitter.com/RSwirling/status/1268306757023121411?s=09 (https://twitter.com/RSwirling/status/1268306757023121411?s=09)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 03, 2020, 11:17:44 PM
I wonder how many of these law enforcement guys are connected to right-wing militias.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:49:14 PM
Are you suggesting we shouldn't trust you?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:52:18 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2020, 11:49:14 PM
Are you suggesting we shouldn't trust you?

You do as you feel. I know what side I will be on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 04, 2020, 12:07:04 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.


I'd be more of a danger to myself than I would be to anyone else.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 04, 2020, 12:07:39 AM
German state minister for culture says that the Left, by pushing for a more gender neutral language and using "word creations like 'People of Color'" is shutting up not the discriminators but the moderate, democratic center. :mellow:

I thought POC was a pretty normal and accepted term, not a sign of POLTICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD RAWRRRH. :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 12:14:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2020, 12:07:39 AM
German state minister for culture says that the Left, by pushing for a more gender neutral language and using "word creations like 'People of Color'" is shutting up not the discriminators but the moderate, democratic center. :mellow:

I thought POC was a pretty normal and accepted term, not a sign of POLTICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD RAWRRRH. :unsure:

People of color was a clunky, contrived attempt by Jessie Jackson to enlist the support of Asians in minority issues.  I don't hear it used much anymore.  It doesn't offend my anti-PC sensibilities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 04, 2020, 12:18:11 AM
Quote from: Maximus on June 03, 2020, 11:14:26 PM
These guys were in the line in DC tonight. No badge, insignia, uniform, or identifying info. Rumors said they are corrections officers. I dunno, I'm no expert but it seems a bad idea for a prison guard to have a knife strapped to his chest.
https://twitter.com/RSwirling/status/1268306757023121411?s=09 (https://twitter.com/RSwirling/status/1268306757023121411?s=09)

https://twitter.com/GarrettHaake/status/1268277899989340161

QuoteGarrett Haake
@GarrettHaake
Shift change: National guard has been replaced with a different unit. One officer identified himself to protestors as being with "DOJ", another said he was from California, and one has a Bureau of Prisons patch on his vest. No name plates.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZnUBNhX0Ac9Ru2?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZnUBUlXkAMwHj7?format=jpg&name=small)

EDIT:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZoggz4XkAAJYQJ?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 12:38:07 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 03, 2020, 08:57:14 PM
So, I deliberately don't read his thread so that I don't have to deal with his bullshit. And yet here he is, bringing his bullshit into a thread that should have nothing to do with his dribble.

Please stop encouraging it here.

Unfortunately he is allowed post outside of his sandbox. I'd recommend in threads where it is likely he will come spewing trash to keep an eye out and left d'or who is posting and then just scroll on by.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:39:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 03, 2020, 11:17:44 PM
I wonder how many of these law enforcement guys are connected to right-wing militias.

In addition to their day job?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 12:41:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 12:14:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2020, 12:07:39 AM
German state minister for culture says that the Left, by pushing for a more gender neutral language and using "word creations like 'People of Color'" is shutting up not the discriminators but the moderate, democratic center. :mellow:

I thought POC was a pretty normal and accepted term, not a sign of POLTICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD RAWRRRH. :unsure:

People of color was a clunky, contrived attempt by Jessie Jackson to enlist the support of Asians in minority issues.  I don't hear it used much anymore.  It doesn't offend my anti-PC sensibilities.

I'd say it still gets used quite often. I just opened a guardian article by a contributor in Washington and its first sentence mentioned people of color.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2020, 12:52:01 AM
 :(
https://twitter.com/mike_puterbaugh/status/1268409713177374723

QuoteThis man isn't a protester.  He was just a guy sitting at a traffic light when cops shot his car with a tear gas round. He got out to yell at them because his pregnant wife is in the vehicle. So they opened fire on them.

https://twitter.com/hasanthehun/status/1268424260319449088
Quotepolice are beating random people who aren't even protesting because it's not about looting or rioting- it never was about order. this is collective punishment for daring to speak out against the police.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1268422273150652422
QuoteA police officer in California shot and killed a kneeling man after mistaking a hammer in the man's pocket for a gun, the authorities said. The man, Sean Monterrosa, who was Hispanic, was attempting to flee a Walgreens that was being looted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 01:24:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 12:41:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 12:14:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2020, 12:07:39 AM
German state minister for culture says that the Left, by pushing for a more gender neutral language and using "word creations like 'People of Color'" is shutting up not the discriminators but the moderate, democratic center. :mellow:

I thought POC was a pretty normal and accepted term, not a sign of POLTICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD RAWRRRH. :unsure:

People of color was a clunky, contrived attempt by Jessie Jackson to enlist the support of Asians in minority issues.  I don't hear it used much anymore.  It doesn't offend my anti-PC sensibilities.

I'd say it still gets used quite often. I just opened a guardian article by a contributor in Washington and its first sentence mentioned people of color.

I think its a lame and annoying term, but I guess we have to have one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 02:27:49 AM
It is nicer than non-whites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 02:33:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 02:27:49 AM
It is nicer than non-whites.

True.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 04:18:51 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 02:27:49 AM
It is nicer than non-whites.
Yeah, I think it's also a bit more self-explanatory than the UK term (similar to Jesse Jackson's intent) of "Political Blackness" - but which is a more difficult term now. I see people of colour used fairly regularly and it's making more headway in the UK than it was a few years ago.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 04:26:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 04:18:51 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 02:27:49 AM
It is nicer than non-whites.
Yeah, I think it's also a bit more self-explanatory than the UK term (similar to Jesse Jackson's intent) of "Political Blackness" - but which is a more difficult term now. I see people of colour used fairly regularly and it's making more headway in the UK than it was a few years ago.

This is entirely academical at this stage because quite clearly such a "non-white" distinction is unavoidable if you want to discuss majority racism and its effects  but I always wonder if the usage of these terms that divide society into two parts (whites in part, rest in the other) end up reinforcing such divisions, as we keep defining them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 04:52:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 04:26:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 04:18:51 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 02:27:49 AM
It is nicer than non-whites.
Yeah, I think it's also a bit more self-explanatory than the UK term (similar to Jesse Jackson's intent) of "Political Blackness" - but which is a more difficult term now. I see people of colour used fairly regularly and it's making more headway in the UK than it was a few years ago.

This is entirely academical at this stage because quite clearly such a "non-white" distinction is unavoidable if you want to discuss majority racism and its effects  but I always wonder if the usage of these terms that divide society into two parts (whites in part, rest in the other) end up reinforcing such divisions, as we keep defining them.

Can you elaborate on what reification you see as a result of the terms?

I mean we do also have terms to split up monolithic terms like PoC when appropriate as clearly not all races face the same issues (leaving aside for now of course, differences in issue that different people within a racial category have as split by their other identities. :D)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 04:58:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 04:26:18 AM
This is entirely academical at this stage because quite clearly such a "non-white" distinction is unavoidable if you want to discuss majority racism and its effects  but I always wonder if the usage of these terms that divide society into two parts (whites in part, rest in the other) end up reinforcing such divisions, as we keep defining them.
Yeah, but I think as you say it's purely academic. For several centuries European nations dominated and colonised the rest of the world and for at least a large part of that period race was the way they understood/split the worl. Race was generally the basis of who was enslaved or slaveholder, colonised or coloniser - with some exceptions round the edges. And from that decision there were a huge number of economic and social consequences that exist to this day, so I sort of feel until the consequences of that, which are predicated on race, are unwound then you'll have people look at the different parts of society. I think the definition and distinction is based on reality, and much as I'm a typical English lit grad who loves my Barthes and signifiers I'm not sure changing the language if the reality is the same makes any difference. That language will bubble up again because it serves a purpose.

And the other way of looking at it is that it's actually coalition building (which is where - at their best - the gays come in), because otherwise the majority can salami slice you and pitch people against each other.

In the UK I think it was maybe easier politically because most black or Asian or other BAME communities were from post-war immigration. So actually the experience and black and Asian Brits was very similar - they experienced similar types of racism (but the words were different), similar types of discrimination and we even had race riots at similar times in different communities (predominately black in Brixton, predominately Asian in Birmingham). Political Blackness was basically about solidarity coming out of that - and you know, the white majority is not distinguishing between Punjabi or Jamaican backgrounds, so why should we? It's now fallen away, largely, but there are still remnants like the Southall Black Sisters (picture below from when their first community centre in 1983):
(https://southallblacksisters.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/SBS-Timeline-1983-768x520.jpg)

In the US none of that would work so it took more active coalition building. While there is racism that affects all communities, but, you know, most African-Americans would be able to trace back their family's existence in America further than most white Americans and probably anyone but the indigenous communities. You've got hundreds of years of slavery and segregation (the UK is obviously also implicated in this, but we never became a slave society here - we just took the economic benefits and built our cities: Bristol, Liverpool, Glasgow, London), so even the idea of "Political Blackness" would never work because that history and experience is really distinct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2020, 06:26:03 AM
 :mad:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1268502778571362304
QuoteAn autopsy has found that Manuel Ellis, a black man who died in police custody in March in Tacoma, Washington, was killed as a result of oxygen deprivation and the physical restraint used in his arrest
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 08:03:46 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Not gonna be much use against Trump's goons. Better to plan to leave the country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: frunk on June 04, 2020, 08:10:59 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

I'm not sure what I would gain by getting a gun.  I have zero training with using one (well, not completely zero but it's been 35 years since I shot one).  The threat from my fellow citizens hasn't gone up today from yesterday.  If the government is after me having a gun isn't really going to help unless I'm occupying a ranger station or some government building.  What exactly is the use case for me having a gun compared to the dozens of pretty terrible things that could happen if I start carrying one?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 08:38:47 AM
American privilege?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 08:38:47 AM
American privilege?

We are talking about black people walking down the street getting murdered and B4 wants to suggest I throw a gun in the mix? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 08:48:12 AM
You don't throw guns. Shade, tantrums, up? Yes. Guns? No.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

I am not anti gun :hmm:

But I am not getting any either. I rely on my reputation as a Texan to scare away the troublemakers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:50:56 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 08:48:12 AM
You don't throw guns. Shade, tantrums, up? Yes. Guns? No.

Can't nobody tell me nothing
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 04, 2020, 08:52:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 08:38:47 AM
American privilege?

We are talking about black people walking down the street getting murdered and B4 wants to suggest I throw a gun in the mix? :hmm:
Just declare up front to police that you're legally carrying, you'll be fine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:53:29 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2020, 08:52:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 08:38:47 AM
American privilege?

We are talking about black people walking down the street getting murdered and B4 wants to suggest I throw a gun in the mix? :hmm:
Just declare up front to police that you're legally carrying, you'll be fine.

:D :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:00:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.

And your lack of preparation may show. I'm not embarrassed I'm white.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:03:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 08:38:47 AM
American privilege?

We are talking about black people walking down the street getting murdered and B4 wants to suggest I throw a gun in the mix? :hmm:

I'm suggesting you just have a couple tucked away legally in your home for when the time comes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:04:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

I am not anti gun :hmm:

But I am not getting any either. I rely on my reputation as a Texan to scare away the troublemakers.

Let me know how that works out for you against the oppresser.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 09:05:49 AM
Good op-ed on no-knock warrants:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/no-knock-warrant-breonna-taylor-was-illegal/?hpid=hp_opinions-abtest-alt_opinion-card-g-right-alt%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans&itid=hp_opinions-abtest-alt_opinion-card-g-right-alt%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

Quote from: WaPoThe no-knock warrant for Breonna Taylor was illegal
Police departments continue to violate an important Supreme Court ruling — and judges keep letting them

Just after midnight on March 13, police in Louisville on a drug raid forced their way into the home of Breonna Taylor, a 26-year-old black woman who worked as an emergency room technician. Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, a licensed gun owner, woke up and grabbed his gun. According to the police, Walker then fired at them, and the police returned with a storm of at least 20 bullets, striking Taylor at least eight times, killing her. (One police officer was shot in the leg and is expected to make a full recovery.)

Walker was arrested and charged with attempted murder of a police officer. Those charges have since been dismissed. He says the police beat on the door for 30 to 45 seconds without identifying themselves. He thought he and Taylor were being attacked by criminals. According to Taylor's attorneys, these were plainclothes officers, not a trained SWAT team.

The Louisville police didn't find any drugs. We now know that Taylor wasn't even the person police were investigating. Their main suspect, Jamarcus Glover, and his accomplices were already in custody by the time the police raided Taylor's home.

In the affidavit for the no-knock warrant for Taylor's home, a detective claimed to have consulted with a postal inspector, who confirmed that Glover had been "receiving packages" at Taylor's address. But the Louisville postal inspector has since said that he was never consulted by the officers and that there was nothing suspicious about the packages. A source with knowledge of the case has since told me that the packages contained clothes and shoes.

Much of this has been previously reported. Here is what has yet to be reported: The no-knock warrant for Breonna Taylor's home was illegal.

In the 1995 case Wilson v. Arkansas, the court recognized for the first time that the "Castle Doctrine" and the "knock and announce" rule are embedded in the Fourth Amendment. The Castle Doctrine, which dates back centuries to English common law, states that the home should be a place of peace and sanctuary. Accordingly, except for the most extreme circumstances, the police must knock, announce themselves and give time for the occupants of a home to answer the door peacefully and avoid the potential violence and destruction of a forced entry.

The Wilson ruling did allow for some exceptions, though: Most notably, if the police can show that knocking and announcing would allow a particular suspect to dispose of evidence, flee or assault the officers serving the warrant, the police can enter without knocking. After Wilson, many police departments exploited that "exigent circumstance" exception by simply declaring in search warrant affidavits that all drug dealers are a threat to dispose of evidence, flee or assault the officers at the door. So in 1997, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Richards v. Wisconsin that this sort of blanket exception to the rule is unconstitutional. Here's the relevant excerpt from the court's opinion, written by Justice John Paul Stevens:

    If a per se exception were allowed for each category of criminal investigation that included a considerable — albeit hypothetical — risk of danger to officers or destruction of evidence, the knock-and-announce element of the Fourth Amendment's reasonableness requirement would be meaningless.
    Thus, the fact that felony drug investigations may frequently present circumstances warranting a no-knock entry cannot remove from the neutral scrutiny of a reviewing court the reasonableness of the police decision not to knock and announce in a particular case. Instead, in each case, it is the duty of a court confronted with the question to determine whether the facts and circumstances of the particular entry justified dispensing with the knock-and-announce requirement.
    In order to justify a "no-knock" entry, the police must have a reasonable suspicion that knocking and announcing their presence, under the particular circumstances, would be dangerous or futile, or that it would inhibit the effective investigation of the crime by, for example, allowing the destruction of evidence.

In other words, the police must show why each individual suspect may be a threat to dispose of evidence, flee or attack the police. They can't simply state that all drug suspects present such a threat. As Stevens points out, the burden for the police here isn't high. They just have to provide something.

The warrant for Taylor's home doesn't clear even that relatively low hurdle. In the portion asking permission for a "no-knock" entry, detective Joshua Jaynes writes, "Affiant is requesting a No-Knock entry to the premises due to the nature of how these drug traffickers operate. These drug traffickers have a history of attempting to destroy evidence, have cameras on the location that compromise Detectives once an approach to the dwelling is made, and a have [sic] history of fleeing from law enforcement." (The Louisville Police Department did not return a request for comment.)

The police actually obtained five warrants in connection with their investigation into Glover and his alleged associates. Jaynes requested no-knock entry for all five warrants, and in all five he used the same language as above, almost word for word. This, by definition, is not "particular to the circumstances." Yet Louisville Circuit Judge Mary Shaw signed all five warrants.

Louisville police could try to argue that by using the word "these," Jaynes is stating that this particular group of suspects presents a risk for all of the threats he lists. But he provides little specific information as to why the targets represent a threat. The closest he comes is listing the prior criminal records of Glover and the other suspects. There's no evidence included of previously resisting police or committing violence against another person. Nor is there any specific information about surveillance cameras at any of the residences raided.

Breonna Taylor had no criminal record except for a shoplifting charge in 2012 that was later dismissed. She had no history of violence or resisting police. There were no surveillance cameras at her house. Her only connection to the investigation is that Glover once received a package at her house, and Glover likely used her address because the two had dated several years before and remained in touch. But Jaynes provides no specific reason for the police to think Taylor was a threat to dispose of evidence, assault the officers serving the warrant or flee.

Louisville police could also argue that the no-knock provision in the Taylor warrant isn't relevant because the police claim to have repeatedly knocked and announced themselves before forcing their way inside. Yet, according to Taylor's attorneys, 16 people in the densely populated neighborhood around Taylor say they heard the gunshots but never heard the police announce themselves. Taylor lived in an apartment building, so if the cops had announced loud enough to wake Taylor and Walker, one would think at least one of her neighbors would have heard it.

Furthermore, Walker actually called 911 after the raid, telling the dispatcher, "I don't know what happened ... somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend." It's unlikely that a man with no criminal record would knowingly shoot at police officers, then call 911 and pretend ignorance. It seems safe to say that if the police did announce themselves, Walker didn't hear it. And that makes the raid legally indistinguishable from a no-knock.

Often in these raids, the police attempt to satisfy the knock-and-announce requirement by lightly announcing themselves and knocking either moments before or simultaneously as the battering ram hits the door. Police officials have admitted as much. In fact, police officials in Louisville have admitted as much.

In a 2015 study, criminologist Brian Schaefer accompanied police on 73 raids in a city he called "Bourbonville." Sam Aguiar, an attorney for Taylor's family, has since confirmed that the city in the study is Louisville. "Of the 73 search warrant entries observed, every entry involved using a ram to break the door down," Schaefer writes. "Further, the detectives announce their presence and purpose in conjunction with the first hit on the door. [Emphasis added.] A detective explained, 'As long as we announce our presence, we are good. We don't want to give them anytime to destroy evidence or grab a weapon, so we go fast and get through the door quick.'" Schaefer adds that in the raids he observed, the difference between how police served a no-knock warrant and a knock-and-announce warrant was "minimal in practice."

Ironically (or perhaps not), the exception to the pattern was when the police were raiding someone they actually knew to be dangerous. Schaefer quotes a detective telling his raid team in one such case, "We need to actually announce our presence this time."

Louisville's police department isn't the only one violating the Richards ruling. In 2018, I reviewed more than 105 no-knock warrants served by the police department in Little Rock. In 97 of those warrants, the police provided no specific evidence about why the suspect met one of the exigent circumstances needed to dispense with the knock-and-announce requirement. Yet judges signed those warrants anyway.

In an even more egregious example, in 2015, a South Carolina drug team raided the home of Julian Betton, a 31-year-old black man, over a couple of low-level marijuana sales. After battering down Betton's door, the officers shot him nine times. Every officer on the task force claimed that members of the raid team knocked and announced multiple times before battering down the door. But footage from Betton's security camera showed they were lying. In depositions for Betton's lawsuit, one task force member testified, wrongly, "It's not the law to knock and announce. You know, it's just not." Another said that even when the drug unit wasn't given a no-knock warrant, they "almost always forcibly entered without knocking and announcing, or simultaneously with announcing."

So what's happening? Why are police departments blatantly violating a Supreme Court ruling?

The answer lies in a Supreme Court ruling subsequent to Richards — Hudson v. Michigan in 2006. In Hudson, the court ruled 5 to 4 that even if the police violate the knock-and-announce rule, the exclusionary rule is not applicable, and the police can still use any incriminating evidence they find inside.

The exclusionary rule is meant to be a deterrent to prevent police from violating the Fourth Amendment. But in his majority opinion, Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the rule was too extreme a remedy in these cases. Instead, Scalia argued that there are other ways to keep cops accountable. He referred to "wide-ranging reforms" in U.S. policing, citing a criminologist who later wrote that Scalia had completely misinterpreted his work.

Scalia also pointed out that police officers who violate the rule can be sued. But police are protected from such lawsuits by the doctrine of qualified immunity, which makes it nearly impossible to collect damages, especially in cases where there's little established law. In my years covering this issue, I've never come across anyone who has ever won a lawsuit against police officers solely for violating the knock-and-announce rule.

As for the "new professionalism," as of today, not a single police officer in Little Rock has been held accountable for illegal no-knock warrants. One of the judges who signed off on a large portion of those warrants is currently running for higher judicial office. The detective who requested many of those warrants, who was caught lying in one, and for whom there's evidence that he lied in others, is still in charge of the city's drug investigations.

There has also been no discipline of any kind for the officers who crippled Julian Betton. When the commander of the drug unit was asked in a deposition why none of the officers had been disciplined, he replied, "They didn't do anything wrong."

Hudson was an enormously consequential ruling. The knock-and-announce rule isn't a mere formality. At its heart is the notion that if the police are going to violate the safety and sanctity of the home, they should be forced to provide ample justification for doing so. That means a thorough investigation, plenty of surveillance and double-checking to verify their information to ensure that the suspect is a real threat and that they have the correct address.

After the court's ruling in Hudson, those of us who worried about these tactics warned that without any real deterrent, police, judges and prosecutors would eventually ignore the knock-and-announce rule entirely. Police would get sloppier with their warrants, they'd do less surveillance, investigation and verification, and they'd be less vigilant about the rights of the people in the homes they storm. All of that would mean that more people — both cops and civilians — would die.

That's exactly what has happened. Breonna Taylor's death wasn't some unimaginable accident. Nor were the deaths of people who have since died in similar raids. Her death was the entirely foreseeable consequence of a police department feeling free to callously and carelessly ignore the Fourth Amendment and the Supreme Court's decision to prioritize the integrity of drug prosecutions over the Fourth Amendment right of Americans to feel safe and secure in their homes.

Unless this is corrected, the next Breonna Taylor is coming.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 09:08:09 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:04:46 AM
Let me know how that works out for you against the oppresser.  :lol:

I have cans of mace so they will at least cry a lot while oppressing me :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 04, 2020, 09:12:42 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:00:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.

And your lack of preparation may show. I'm not embarrassed I'm white.

Garbon's preparation is pretty good. Put up an entire ocean between White American oppression & him.

You should be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 09:18:19 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:00:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.

And your lack of preparation may show. I'm not embarrassed I'm white.

You shouldn't be embarrassed to be white. You should probably consider though that what might make sense for yourself as a white man, might not make sense for black people. Because you know, black people are in danger when they are just say bird watching. Having a gun is just a guaranteed death sentence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 09:19:10 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

This should be in the failed state thread.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 09:19:21 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:03:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 08:38:47 AM
American privilege?

We are talking about black people walking down the street getting murdered and B4 wants to suggest I throw a gun in the mix? :hmm:

I'm suggesting you just have a couple tucked away legally in your home for when the time comes.

That didn't work out so well for Breonna Taylor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 09:43:28 AM
So I saw this footage and thought it was outrageous (this is the issue Australia wants to be investigated). I am surprised that the US Parks Police is this aggressive :o :ph34r: :blink:
https://twitter.com/JvittalTV/status/1268306972685844480?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 04, 2020, 09:50:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.

You went to Stanford, and are a high income expatriate businessman.

B4 is retired enlisted infantry. Does he even have a college degree?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 04, 2020, 09:51:38 AM
He's still White tho.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 04, 2020, 09:51:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

I am not anti gun :hmm:

But I am not getting any either. I rely on my reputation as a Texan to scare away the troublemakers.

Do you have a large hat?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 09:52:35 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 04, 2020, 09:50:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.

You went to Stanford, and are a high income expatriate businessman.

B4 is retired enlisted infantry. Does he even have a college degree?

Therefore legally gun-toting garbon won't be shot for being black without a license? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 09:52:40 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 04, 2020, 09:51:42 AM
Do you have a large hat?

No :(

I do have my Great-Grandfathers and he was a Texas rancher but sadly his head was much smaller than mine so I cannot wear it :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 09:54:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 09:52:40 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 04, 2020, 09:51:42 AM
Do you have a large hat?

No :(

I do have my Great-Grandfathers and he was a Texas rancher but sadly his head was much smaller than mine so I cannot wear it :(

Are you sure he wasn't killed by an Amazonian tribe?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 09:54:08 AM
Are you sure he wasn't killed by an Amazonian tribe?

Ok only that I cannot fit his hat on my head, so only much smaller by hat size standards not super tiny or anything :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 04, 2020, 09:55:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 09:18:19 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 09:00:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 03, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
All you anti gun folks might want to go get a couple.

Your white privilege might be showing.

And your lack of preparation may show. I'm not embarrassed I'm white.

You shouldn't be embarrassed to be white. You should probably consider though that what might make sense for yourself as a white man, might not make sense for black people. Because you know, black people are in danger when they are just say bird watching. Having a gun is just a guaranteed death sentence.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/623356/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-ethnicity/

24% of black people own a gun in the US and another 8% live in a household with a gun. I assume some percentage of them will not be killed because they have a gun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 09:55:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 09:54:08 AM
Are you sure he wasn't killed by an Amazonian tribe?

Ok only that I cannot fit his hat on my head, so only much smaller by hat size standards not super tiny or anything :P

Ah. Gotcha.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 12:14:27 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2020, 12:07:39 AM
German state minister for culture says that the Left, by pushing for a more gender neutral language and using "word creations like 'People of Color'" is shutting up not the discriminators but the moderate, democratic center. :mellow:

I thought POC was a pretty normal and accepted term, not a sign of POLTICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD RAWRRRH. :unsure:

People of color was a clunky, contrived attempt by Jessie Jackson to enlist the support of Asians in minority issues.  I don't hear it used much anymore.  It doesn't offend my anti-PC sensibilities.

Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 11:04:28 AM
I loath that term, it is so reductionist. But then so is white.

It just seems like there is very little that can be said that actually applies to every group in that catagory. But I get why the term exists and its utility. It just kind of sucks that that distinction needs to be made.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:06:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 11:04:28 AM
I loath that term, it is so reductionist. But then so is white.

It just seems like there is very little that can be said that actually applies to every group in that catagory.

Well that's why it is not the only term that one can use. But it is useful for a sense of solidarity about some of the same issues that fit many who fall into the PoC camp.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:06:24 AM
But it is useful for a sense of solidarity about some of the same issues that fit many who fall into the PoC camp.

I know. As I said in my edit I know why it exists.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 04, 2020, 11:14:55 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 04, 2020, 09:12:42 AM
You should be.

But he's not French? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 04, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 04, 2020, 09:55:12 AM

https://www.statista.com/statistics/623356/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-ethnicity/

24% of black people own a gun in the US and another 8% live in a household with a gun. I assume some percentage of them will not be killed because they have a gun.

It may also very likely greatly increase the likelihood of them getting killed by police or vigilantes. Philando Castille springs to mind. Kenneth Walker as well, although encouragingly it seems that charges are going to be dropped against Walker - not certain of that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 04, 2020, 11:27:14 AM
Here's a question for the legal minded among us. Now that we have the four former officers charged with crimes what is the actual likelihood of getting any convictions? And what's going to happen after Chauvin gets off ? Not a given of course and I'm no legal expert but  my understanding of a part of the problem with US police forces being the way they are is the almost complete lack of accountability.

QuoteTo Make Police Accountable, End Qualified Immunity

https://thebulwark.com/to-make-police-accountable-end-qualified-immunity/ (https://thebulwark.com/to-make-police-accountable-end-qualified-immunity/)

The Bulwark , which I am finding myself reading quite a lot these days.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:06:24 AM
But it is useful for a sense of solidarity about some of the same issues that fit many who fall into the PoC camp.

I know. As I said in my edit I know why it exists.

Got it. Of course, it would be hard for me to anticipate future edits. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 11:32:10 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:06:24 AM
But it is useful for a sense of solidarity about some of the same issues that fit many who fall into the PoC camp.

I know. As I said in my edit I know why it exists.

Got it. Of course, it would be hard for me to anticipate future edits. :P

:blush:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 11:32:20 AM
What's wrong with the term PoC? There are certainly more stupid terms around for race stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 04, 2020, 12:27:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.

Do you mean Hispanic White and/or a pale white who got sunburnt?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 12:30:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

If somebody called me racialised I'd never talk to them again.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.

You mean, what if they can pass? :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.

So what if they are from Argentina you mean? :P

The race terms are nonsensical and arbitrary because they refer to something that is not physically real. Yet despite being nonsensical and arbitrary they are really important in our society.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

I've encountered it in Sweden as well. It's a horrible term.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:41:25 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
You mean, what if they can pass? :mellow:

Terms like pass get a little close to race realism to me. But yeah sometimes your identity may not match up with how society categorizes you. That can suck...or not I guess depending.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:42:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.

So what if they are from Argentina you mean? :P

The race terms are nonsensical and arbitrary because they refer to something that is not physically real. Yet despite being nonsensical and arbitrary they are really important in our society.

You honestly can't see if someone is black or white?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:42:05 PM
You honestly can't see if someone is black or white?

Well our entire society has struggled with this for centuries. Who gets to be black? Who gets to be white? Spain had a set of laws about that, France had a set of laws about that, and we had our wonderful "one drop rule". If it were so obvious there would probably not be several sets of codified laws trying to untangle it.

But if you extend that to white vs. other then it really gets complicated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:46:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:42:05 PM
You honestly can't see if someone is black or white?

Well our entire society has struggled with this for centuries. Who gets to be black? Who gets to be white? Spain had a set of laws about that, France had a set of laws about that, and we had our wonderful "one drop rule".

But if you extend that to white vs. other then it really gets complicated.

Many things are divided by blurry lines. Hardly means that they aren't real. There are no different genres of music? I would say yes there are. Are the lines sometimes blurry af? Hell yeah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:48:10 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.

You mean, what if they can pass? :mellow:

Are they still POC? My daughter has Latina heritage but is very pale.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 04, 2020, 12:48:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

I don't like that term, because it implies as inevitable the very thing we all wish to see disappear - that society treats you different because of this arbitrary category.

I know that the intent is to make it so that the category is something done to people, but it just sounds wrong, like being discriminated against is a done deal that can't ever be changed. Like referring to women as "sexualized".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:50:43 PM
My favorite example of this was the rule that only white people could be citizens of the United States. Then after the Civil War it was changed to also include people of African descent. Which created the bizarre situation where Egyptians could get citizenship, no problem, while the Syrians couldn't. So the Syrians sued to be white and they won.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_v._United_States

QuoteCourt held that residents originating from Syria were considered racially "white", and therefore eligible to become naturalized US citizens

See? Syrians are white people, proved in a court of law. Who can argue?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 04, 2020, 12:51:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

I've encountered it in Sweden as well. It's a horrible term.

Import from the US Identity Politics Left. Introduced and used in France by extreme-leftist groups such as the so-called Indigènes de la République trying to hide their race-based, more like racist-based, Weltanschauung.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:51:48 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 04, 2020, 12:48:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

I don't like that term, because it implies as inevitable the very thing we all wish to see disappear - that society treats you different because of this arbitrary category.

I know that the intent is to make it so that the category is something done to people, but it just sounds wrong, like being discriminated against is a done deal that can't ever be changed. Like referring to women as "sexualized".

Aren't you Pogromed? What's your experience from living under that term?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 04, 2020, 12:48:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

I don't like that term, because it implies as inevitable the very thing we all wish to see disappear - that society treats you different because of this arbitrary category.

I know that the intent is to make it so that the category is something done to people, but it just sounds wrong, like being discriminated against is a done deal that can't ever be changed. Like referring to women as "sexualized".

I had the same initial reaction, but on reflection, when it stops being a done deal we can stop using the phrase.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:54:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:46:20 PM
Many things are divided by blurry lines. Hardly means that they aren't real. There are no different genres of music? I would say yes there are. Are the lines sometimes blurry af? Hell yeah.

Well they are not physically real. It is just an arbitrary distinction which may or may not be useful depending on how you feel about music. Fortunately we are not basing an entire society around distinctions in music.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 12:30:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 04, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Perhaps "minority" could work? I mean that's the crux of it isn't it? They got discriminated against because they were a well identifiable  "not us" group for the majority.

That is already a term but it lacks specificity (given you can be a minority even when a physical majority - see women or eventual racial make up of the US; or even a political minority). Also, there's a lot more dignity in being a person of color than a minority.

The phrase that has caught on here is "racialized".  I suppose it works pretty well from the perspective of recognizing the reality that people in that category should be the same as others (whites) but are not.  It also gives a certain bond of solidarity for everyone in that group.

If somebody called me racialised I'd never talk to them again.

Because they didn't spell it correctly?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:57:34 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:48:10 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 04, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
Nearly all of my friends use people of color, or POC. In encompasses hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

What if the Person of Color is super pale.  Like, even paler than I.

You mean, what if they can pass? :mellow:

Are they still POC? My daughter has Latina heritage but is very pale.

I think so :hmm:

I guess it depends.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 12:54:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 12:46:20 PM
Many things are divided by blurry lines. Hardly means that they aren't real. There are no different genres of music? I would say yes there are. Are the lines sometimes blurry af? Hell yeah.

Well they are not physically real. It is just an arbitrary distinction which may or may not be useful depending on how you feel about music. Fortunately we are not basing an entire society around distinctions in music.

You honestly cannot hear a difference between different genres of music? If I arbitrarily divide people into those taller than 6' and those under or exactly 6', are there no physical differences between them? The division is arbitrary, and some people will be just on the limit beyond my measurement precision. Are they category tall or small? Oh noes, size was all in my head!

I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but the idea that race doesn't exist is obviously wrong and also makes it very hard to explain some phenomena that are easily explained by race.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 01:03:37 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but the idea that race doesn't exist is obviously wrong and also makes it very hard to explain some phenomena that are easily explained by race.

Genetics obviously exists. Race does not.

What sorts of phenomenon are easily explained by race that cannot be explained by genetics? Zero. Skin color, for example, is directly connected to absolutely no other traits. So why explain genetic differences using skin color? Why not use something real instead of something fake?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 01:06:30 PM
I guess let's go further. Let's look at every culture, country, and ethnicity that could be described as "white". What exactly about them is explained by race? What could even be universally said about all of them?

What would that list even be?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:13:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 01:03:37 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but the idea that race doesn't exist is obviously wrong and also makes it very hard to explain some phenomena that are easily explained by race.

Genetics obviously exists. Race does not.

What sorts of phenomenon are easily explained by race that cannot be explained by genetics? Zero. Skin color, for example, is directly connected to absolutely no other traits. So why explain genetic differences using skin color?

Without race it would be very hard to explain for instance several aspects of the experience of Africans brought to America as slaves, and their descendants. If there hadn't been a difference of appearance between that group and for instance European volunteer immigrants and their descendants, I think it would be hard to explain the difference in treatment by authorities and businesses even in situations when they have only briefly observed a person visually, even say a hundred years after the end of slavery in the US, or 160 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:14:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 01:06:30 PM
I guess let's go further. Let's look at every culture, country, and ethnicity that could be described as "white". What exactly about them is explained by race? What could even be universally said about all of them?

What would that list even be?

You seem to view race like some late Victorian/Edwardian person would.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 01:39:17 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:13:15 PM
Without race it would be very hard to explain for instance several aspects of the experience of Africans brought to America as slaves, and their descendants. If there hadn't been a difference of appearance between that group and for instance European volunteer immigrants and their descendants, I think it would be hard to explain the difference in treatment by authorities and businesses even in situations when they have only briefly observed a person visually, even say a hundred years after the end of slavery in the US, or 160 years.

Plenty of the descendents of slaves are considered "white" today and plenty of people who are "black" have no slave ancestors, or at least non enslaved here in the United States. This is one trait, very demonstrably genetic and not connected to other traits, that has been arbitrarily singled out as important.

QuoteYou seem to view race like some late Victorian/Edwardian person would.

As an arbitrary creation of society with little real physical basis? I doubt they felt that way.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:42:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 01:39:17 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 01:13:15 PM
Without race it would be very hard to explain for instance several aspects of the experience of Africans brought to America as slaves, and their descendants. If there hadn't been a difference of appearance between that group and for instance European volunteer immigrants and their descendants, I think it would be hard to explain the difference in treatment by authorities and businesses even in situations when they have only briefly observed a person visually, even say a hundred years after the end of slavery in the US, or 160 years.

Plenty of the descendents of slaves are considered "white" today and plenty of people who are "black" have no slave ancestors, or at least non enslaved here in the United States. This is one trait, very demonstrably genetic and not connected to other traits, that has been arbitrarily singled out as important.

So you agree with me? Or disagree?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 02:16:36 PM
Valmy, you are wasting your time. Racism is a belief, it isn't the considered conclusion from examining the evidence.  You cannot convince a person to change their deeply-held beliefs with evidence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

I would argue that they obviously have a real impact on the world, but I take it from your question that you do not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 02:23:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 02:16:36 PM
Valmy, you are wasting your time. Racism is a belief, it isn't the considered conclusion from examining the evidence.  You cannot convince a person to change their deeply-held beliefs with evidence.

:D IIRC it was a race discussion many years ago that made me realize that you're The Compleat Moran. You really are clueless. I also like that you accuse me of racism. Nice touch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:29:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

I would argue that they obviously have a real impact on the world, but I take it from your question that you do not.

Then you misread.

It just seems strange to insist race doesn't exist, can't explain anything, and cannot leave evidence.

Switch the argument to private property. Since private property doesn't exist naturally, it can't explain anything, and therefore, we cannot find evidence of it.

I know that people want to undermine the category of race by saying it carries no biological determinism. That's great. However, we have inherited a world that has very much, and for the last three centuries, made race an operative category. Which means it has structured states, laws, cultures, international relations, etc. My belief about what race is, or isn't, can certainly influence the political struggles around it, but it can't make it go away anymore than my beliefs about private property cannot make it go away and magically render it inoperative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 02:32:18 PM
Some Fox dupe, apparently.

QuoteKilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 02:35:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 02:32:18 PM
Some Fox dupe, apparently.

QuoteKilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

:hmm:

Isn't Chapman still locked up?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 04, 2020, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 02:32:18 PM
Some Fox dupe, apparently.

QuoteKilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

:hmm:

He's right.  John Lennon would have been 79 years old, and NYC is a Covid hotspot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.
How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

It's like saying if you don't believe in God, religion isn't a real thing. How we live, how we organise societies, how and what we believe etc are all real things.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.
How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

It's like saying if you don't believe in God, religion isn't a real thing. How we live, how we organise societies, how and what we believe etc are all real things.

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:17:53 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:21:34 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

I am using real as a synonym for something physically in existance. I may be the using the wrong word. But it wouldn't be surprising for a argument to hinge on semantics.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:21:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Race is real because we choose to make it real.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

My impression is that you operate with a meaning of the word race which is considerably different from mainstream usage. I hate bringing out a dictionary but since we appear to be talking about completely different things I did. The first I came across was this one:

a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

From here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race

Do you actually think that groups like that don't exist? If so great, then I understand what you're saying at least.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:21:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:17:53 PM
Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?

I am not sure what you mean. Does race existed as a "thing" before people started believing in it? No. That's the issue. Very few things begin their existence as purely material objects. There never was a purely material concept of race - even when racists were trying their best to make it so. Was it always a purely dematerialized thing? No. Like most human concepts, it emerged from the mixing and mingling of ideas and material elements. It had to be buttressed by, and indexed to, skin color, for instance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:17:53 PM
Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?

I am not sure what you mean. Does race existed as a "thing" before people started believing in it? No. That's the issue. Very few things begin their existence as purely material objects. There never was a purely material concept of race - even when racists were trying their best to make it so. Was it always a purely dematerialized thing? No. Like most human concepts, it emerged from the mixing and mingling of ideas and material elements. It had to be buttressed by, and indexed to, skin color, for instance.


You and Sheilbh both seemed to suggest that something which isn't real can't have an impact. I'm not sure that the object being believed in must be real to have an impact.

A smaller example would be how many believed the Clinton's ran a pedo ring in the basement of a pizza parlor. The sex ring didn't exist but nevertheless the idea of it had an impact up to and including the person who went there to free the children.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.
No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:44:22 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.
No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

Okay but that isn't what you said.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.
No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

I think it does. After all the entire racist system is based on the belief that race exists either because God cursed somebody or because of quantifiable physical differences. Whether or not those beliefs are based on real things or bullshit is important.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 04, 2020, 03:45:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.
No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

What might be closer to Valmy's original impact: should we let it have an impact? Is having an impact because it is believed in although not real, should be reason enough to accept the impact?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:45:53 PM
From an essay hosted the American Council on Education website

https://www.equityinhighered.org/resources/ideas-and-insights/the-problematic-nature-of-racial-and-ethnic-categories-in-higher-education/

Quote...we must not lose sight of the paradox that race is an ephemeral, elusive, imaginary construct. At the same time, race has real, profound, and lived consequences for students who are sorted across the different boxes. We are right to challenge the purpose and consequences of racial and ethnic categories, including their applicability to the students we serve.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:54:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:44:22 PM
Okay but that isn't what you said.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.
Okay I suppose I struggle to see how a social construct that has historical roots, and experience, and present day impact isn't real. I think social constructs generally are real, because we have created them and used them to shape our societies and how we function in the real world. That doesn't mean they're some universally real or like a molecule, say. But they are still real.

QuoteWhat might be closer to Valmy's original impact: should we let it have an impact? Is having an impact because it is believed in although not real, should be reason enough to accept the impact?
But again I agree but I don't think it's a point of personal choice, it's social. Just because something has an impact doesn't mean you have to personally support that. You need a theory of social change not personal revelation and action.

Edit: Thinking about the molecule - and I have ZERO science so this may be nonsense - I sort of thinkg I see social constructs and society as like the dark matter of our world. It's there and it has an impact and it shapes the course of things, but until recently (they've ruined this simile) it wasn't "there".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 04, 2020, 03:56:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:21:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.


Well, yeah.  Mental objects are real.  The question if a mental object is real outside the mind is a different question all together.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 03:56:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2020, 03:56:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:21:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.


Well, yeah.  Mental objects are real.  The question if a mental object is real outside the mind is a different question all together.

What about mental people?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

My impression is that you operate with a meaning of the word race which is considerably different from mainstream usage. I hate bringing out a dictionary but since we appear to be talking about completely different things I did. The first I came across was this one:

a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

From here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race

Do you actually think that groups like that don't exist? If so great, then I understand what you're saying at least.

I may be talking to myself but I do it at home all the time so I'm no more insane now than I was before.

If race doesn't exist then it will be hard to explain how racism works. If there are no races to distinguish between, how do you discriminate people based on them?

Just for clarity, the same source as above has, for "racist" (noun):

someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly This is the first one on the page, I think it kind of sucks (why just their own?) so I scrolled down to the second definition:

a person who believes that some races are better than others, or who acts unfairly to someone because of his or her race More complete I think, in more ways than one.

Both fall a bit flat if there are no races. To me it is obvious that races and racists according to these definitions exist in the real world.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 04, 2020, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2020, 03:56:40 PM


What about mental people?


Depends if they are homeless.  If they are homeless they exist physically but people are incapable of seeing them and thus don't exist in the minds of modern human beings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 06:10:29 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:29:49 PM
Then you misread.

It just seems strange to insist race doesn't exist, can't explain anything, and cannot leave evidence.

Race exists as a social construct.  It has no objective biological basis.  Racism (i.e. belief in race, with or without assumptions about racial superiority) exists as a belief in the real world, and it can certainly explain a great deal and leave a great deal of evidence.  Without racism, though, the concept of race would be trivial.  I mean, there is a construct called Odin, but without Odinism the construct doesn't mean anything.

QuoteSwitch the argument to private property. Since private property doesn't exist naturally, it can't explain anything, and therefore, we cannot find evidence of it.

In the natural world, you will find it difficult to discern private versus public property, barring signs that tell you.  And even they could be wrong.

QuoteI know that people want to undermine the category of race by saying it carries no biological determinism. That's great. However, we have inherited a world that has very much, and for the last three centuries, made race an operative category. Which means it has structured states, laws, cultures, international relations, etc. My belief about what race is, or isn't, can certainly influence the political struggles around it, but it can't make it go away anymore than my beliefs about private property cannot make it go away and magically render it inoperative.

If you replace "race" with "racism" in that statement, I agree.  The existence or non-existence of of race is important only in the context of the belief in race.  It is like the construct of gods; the only significance such constructs have comes from peoples' belief in them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 04, 2020, 06:55:12 PM
So are the protests ending?  The protesters accomplished their immediate goal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 07:46:33 PM
In more on just the extraordinary police stuff in the US.

There was the Fort Lauderdale cop who did this:
https://twitter.com/BenjaminPDixon/status/1267291999805325312?s=20
In his three and a half years on the force he's been reviewed by internal affairs 79 times. I mean that seems high :blink:

Meanwhile two of the cops in the George Floyd situation had been on the job for four days and Chauvin was their training officer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 08:39:16 PM
QuoteMinneapolis City Council members consider disbanding the police

(...)
Now the council members are listening to a city that is wounded, angry, fed up with decades of violence disproportionately visited upon black and brown residents. Various private and public bodies – from First Avenue to Minneapolis Public Schools – have essentially cut ties with the police department. Council members are trying to figure out what their next move is.
(...)
On Tuesday, (Council Member) Steve Fletcher published a lengthy Twitter thread saying the police department was "irredeemably beyond reform," and a "protection racket" that slows down responses as political payback.

"Several of us on the council are working on finding out what it would take to disband the Minneapolis Police Department and start fresh with a community-oriented, nonviolent public safety and outreach capacity," he wrote.

QuoteSteve Fletcher - Minneapolis Ward 3
@MplsWard3
Bob Kroll's letter yesterday to the Minneapolis Police Federation membership showed us what rank-and-file officers voted for in their leadership, and it is yet another sign that the department is irredeemably beyond reform.
Fletcher says the entire council "to some degree" has been discussing disbanding the police department as an option. He doesn't yet know what that will look like. He suspects it's a transition that will take time, and the involvement – and possibly voting capacity – of residents.

But now more than ever, this feels within reach. Earlier this week, the council members unanimously signed on in support of the Minnesota Department of Human Rights' incoming investigation into the police department.

The power of state law, Fletcher says, might allow them to do things once thought "politically impossible" on the city level.

Even, say, recently. In 2018, the council voted to divert all of $1.1 million away from the police and toward "community-driven public safety programs." Last year, Mayor Jacob Frey's initial budget proposal called for hiring 14 additional police officers. After loud criticism from activists, Frey and the council compromised on a plan to hire 38 police cadets, with other funding going toward violence prevention.

Fletcher's looking forward to "conversations" with the community on how a new public safety approach would work – including some deeply uncomfortable conversations about use of force, and whether it still has a place in the city's approach to law enforcement. But what he's seen the community do already to take care of itself – forming fire watches, putting up unhoused folks in hotels, looking out for one another in a time of unrest – gives him hope for the future.

After all, this is an idea that came from residents – led by black and brown people – in the first place.

"This is our responsibility for not getting this done faster," he says.

What the councilman seems to be referring to in the quoted tweet of the article as proof of the unreformability of the city's police department is a letter by the President of the Minneapolis Police Union, who seems like an unmitigable piece of shit:

QuoteMINNEAPOLIS POLICE UNION PRESIDENT: "I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN THREE SHOOTINGS MYSELF, AND NOT A ONE OF THEM HAS BOTHERED ME"

IN AN INTERVIEW in April, Lt. Bob Kroll, head of Minneapolis's police union, said that he and a majority of the Minneapolis Police Officers' Federation's board have been involved in police shootings. Kroll said that he and the officers on the union's board were not bothered by the shootings, comparing themselves favorably to other officers.

"There's been a big influx of PTSD," Kroll said. "But I've been involved in three shootings myself, and not one of them has bothered me. Maybe I'm different."

His comments underscore the rampant nature of police violence in the United States. The number of times police officers fire their weapons swamps the level of violence in most other countries, where authorities rely on nonlethal methods of coercion, persuasion, or control. Many police officers live with post-traumatic stress disorder induced by the violence associated with policing.

But not Kroll's crew, he said. "Out of the 10 board members, over half of them have been involved in armed encounters, and several of us multiple. We don't seem to have problems," he said. "Certainly getting shot at and shooting people takes a different toll, but if you're in this job and you've seen too much blood and gore and dead people then you've signed up for the wrong job."

Kroll has been a central figure in the unfolding protests and riots following the killing of George Floyd by Minnesota police officer Derek Chauvin. In a letter to union members on Monday, Kroll called Floyd a "violent criminal" and described the ongoing protests as a "terrorist movement" that was years in the making, starting with a minimized police force. He railed against the city's politicians, namely Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and state Gov. Tim Walz, for not authorizing greater force to stop the uprising. "The politicians are to blame and you are the scapegoats," he wrote.

On Tuesday afternoon, the Minnesota AFL-CIO called for Kroll's resignation, blaming him for his role in "[enabling] violence and brutality to grow within police ranks." Police forces across the country have been escalating violence against demonstrators; driving vehicles into crowds; firing rubber bullets, tear gas, and flash grenades at largely peaceful gatherings; and even killing a man in Louisville, Kentucky.(...)
Kroll's politics are not incidental to what is effectively a police riot underway in Minnesota and across the country. He's one of Minnesota's more outspoken supporters of President Donald Trump and took the stage with him at a 2019 campaign rally to praise the administration for "letting the cops do their jobs."

According to a 2015 Star Tribune report, Kroll clocked at least 20 internal affairs complaints during his three decades in the Minneapolis Police Department, "all but three of which were closed without discipline." There have also been several lawsuits against Kroll, detailing a long history of allegations of bigoted comments, including one that accused him of using excessive force against an elderly couple during a no-knock raid and another that accused him of "beating, choking, and kicking" a biracial 15-year-old boy while "spewing racial slurs."

"The big buzzword they had was deescalation," Kroll said of police reform efforts. "You're supposed to, you know, even if you're lawful in using force, it could look bad and give a bad public perception."

Being trained not to use force is what's causing officers stress, Kroll said. "Certainly cops, it's not in their nature. So you're training them to back away," he said. "And it's just not a natural — that's where a lot of the stress does come from with the cops is not [having] the ability to grab somebody and say, no, step back or you're going to jail and if need be, by force."

Kroll also mocked the concept of procedural justice, an institutional reform meant to reduce police use of force through diversity and anti-bias training, saying that it's an opportunity for people of color to get back at white men. He said that in his early days of training, the rule was to "ask them nicely to do something the first time," then give them a "direct, lawful order" to do so, and if they refuse — "you make them with force, that's how you get compliance."

"Those days are over," he said. "Now, it is ask them, love them, call, you know, give them their space and give them their voice. And this is what they're training new officers. ... Our cops went through that and they're going, 'Oh my God.' Yeah, procedural justice. And the theory behind it being that, you know, the white men have oppressed everyone else for 200 years. So it's their opportunity to get back."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
The police unions in general appear to be even bigger pieces of shit than the police themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 09:10:37 PM
I knew I saw the guy earlier, and it turns out that the aforementioned Bob Kroll appears in the Hassan Minhaj show that I linked earlier (here's the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM), it's around the 20 minute mark), he's the police union guy who talks to a reporter about the union covering agents' "Warrior Training" courses after the Minneapolis council banned them after the Philando Castille murder, boasting about how disciplinary action against him would never be upheld.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
The police unions in general appear to be even bigger pieces of shit than the police themselves.

It makes sense.  One of their biggest jobs is fighting for rank and file in misconduct cases.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 09:30:38 PM
Quote"Certainly getting shot at and shooting people takes a different toll, but if you're in this job and you've seen too much blood and gore and dead people then you've signed up for the wrong job."

Damn,
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 04, 2020, 10:26:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
The police unions in general appear to be even bigger pieces of shit than the police themselves.

It makes sense.  One of their biggest jobs is fighting for rank and file in misconduct cases.


:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 10:40:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2020, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
The police unions in general appear to be even bigger pieces of shit than the police themselves.

It makes sense.  One of their biggest jobs is fighting for rank and file in misconduct cases.

Yeah, you want the loudest jerk you can working for your side in adversarial situations, but those same people make situations that shouldn't be adversarial into adversarial situations because, when the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

I am not sure that much can be salvaged from the failed experiment in American policing, but the union system it uses is an element that certainly cannot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2020, 10:54:55 PM
Fucking scum. One of the worst things caught on tape yet

https://www.mediaite.com/news/watch-graphic-video-of-buffalo-cops-knocking-down-elderly-man-goes-viral-after-police-say-he-tripped-and-fell/


Also
https://twitter.com/aterkel/status/1268730108686319618
QuoteThis was another appalling clip of Buffalo PD from earlier — a man is giving a TV interview with his hands up. Police just come up and tackle him
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 04, 2020, 11:30:09 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 04, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
The police unions in general appear to be even bigger pieces of shit than the police themselves.
They should be outlawed, and their function should be replaced with civil service laws.  They seem to be the nexus of police misconduct everywhere.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2020, 11:56:50 PM
Police brutality map, each pin contains links to actual video of the brutality incident

https://twitter.com/KT_So_It_Goes/status/1268759620484464645
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2020, 12:08:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2020, 10:54:55 PM
Fucking scum. One of the worst things caught on tape yet

https://www.mediaite.com/news/watch-graphic-video-of-buffalo-cops-knocking-down-elderly-man-goes-viral-after-police-say-he-tripped-and-fell/

Another angle of that incident https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1268759591573090304
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:23:07 AM
Anti racism demo in Vienna yesterday. Over 50,000 in attendance which makes it one of the larger demos in recent years. I had originally planned to go, but then chickened out because of Covid. I did pass through some of the crowds near the subway, though, and there was basically no social distancing, and at least a third of the people didn't wear any masks.

(https://i.redd.it/kqtsdpolfx251.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 01:33:03 AM
NYT has apologized for running the Tom Cotton op-ed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 01:34:10 AM
The cultural influence of the USA is quite remarkable. People just HAVE to be doing the same shit they are doing, pandemic or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:36:55 AM
One Angry Gamer has released a "traitor list" of companies and people voicing support of BLM:

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/traitors-of-america/

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:48:57 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:36:55 AM
One Angry Gamer has released a "traitor list" of companies and people voicing support of BLM:

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/traitors-of-america/

:lol:

That is one long freaking list. It makes it look like America is a traitor to America. Is it a joke?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 05, 2020, 01:52:57 AM
He includes youtubers, so it's a joke whether he means it or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:54:19 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 05, 2020, 01:52:57 AM
He includes youtubers, so it's a joke whether he means it or not.

Just to be sure he also includes Youtube.

Anyway One Angry Gamer? Pffft there is only one Angry Gamer and his name is James Rolfe. What a poser.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 03:53:42 AM
When even the NFL and the WWE are "Traitors to America" in your book, maybe you should review your book. Anyway, who's this person and why should anyone listen to such a diatribe?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 04:01:00 AM
Well the Republicans are traitors to America these days, so old certainties can no longer be counted on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2020, 04:19:35 AM
So according to GOP Senator Mike Lee, the Mayor of D.C. has kicked all the soldiers out of the hotels.

If the Mayor has the consent of the hotel owners, then this would be the first 3rd Amendment case in history!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2020, 05:24:46 AM
 
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:36:55 AM
One Angry Gamer has released a "traitor list" of companies and people voicing support of BLM:

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/traitors-of-america/

:lol:

Wow. A lot of "what about Hong Kong! 111" whataboutism there.
Which is just nonsensical on so many levels. Do they really think the BLM protestors are against the Hong Kong protestors?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 05:30:05 AM
Ok, so this is where Walmart draws the line.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZn2m_uX0AcYLgD?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 05:37:54 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 05:30:05 AM
Ok, so this is where Walmart draws the line.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZn2m_uX0AcYLgD?format=jpg&name=small)

https://www.vox.com/vox-sentences/2019/9/4/20849882/vox-sentences-walmart-gun-sales-restrictions
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 05:46:04 AM
Fair enough. I expect NRA, GOP, etc. to come out in condemnation again. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:05:30 AM
Again - WTF :blink:
https://twitter.com/ABC7/status/1268673244715859968?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:09:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:05:30 AM
Again - WTF :blink:
https://twitter.com/ABC7/status/1268673244715859968?s=20

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZtNI_gUEAA4shD?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:11:20 AM
And this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZurHE8WsAAsuWb?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:14:29 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:09:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:05:30 AM
Again - WTF :blink:
https://twitter.com/ABC7/status/1268673244715859968?s=20

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZtNI_gUEAA4shD?format=jpg&name=medium)


Yeah, I take everything back I said earlier. Thanks to the police, there are plenty of points to these protests.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:16:04 AM
Let's arrest an EMT and a woman on a stretcher for being out past curfew.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZte5LFXYAUSkaV?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZte6jZX0AAWsRR?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 06:16:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:11:20 AM
And this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZurHE8WsAAsuWb?format=jpg&name=medium)

Yes let's compare Jesus, whose case went through all kinds of legal and political processes that ended with a death sentence, with people being killed by cops without any trial or nothing because they happen to be black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:17:31 AM
Thread of events in Brooklyn last night: https://twitter.com/jangelooff/status/1268681141478924291?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.

Man, it is popular to be all panicked about technological progress and social media, but phone cameras and Twitter are proving to be the best weapons against police brutality.

On the policemen walking past though: the closest one wanted to kneel down to the old guy, but then the other hand (supposedly his superior) pushed him onward and started calling it in, so I assume the rest just knew it was being taken care of. I mean, I just kind of must assume that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:27:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Man, it is popular to be all panicked about technological progress and social media, but phone cameras and Twitter are proving to be the best weapons against police brutality.

Now if only we could get them to wear and turn on their bodycams.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:29:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:27:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Man, it is popular to be all panicked about technological progress and social media, but phone cameras and Twitter are proving to be the best weapons against police brutality.

Now if only we could get them to wear and turn on their bodycams.

They'll go right ahead with that right after they have uncovered their badges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2020, 06:30:09 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:11:20 AM
And this:

(//)

On this stuff I do have some sympathy.
You do see the right doing this A LOT. Posting videos that appear to show something bad but completely lacking all context. Sometimes showing something innocent in a misleading light.

Of course, a lot of those asking this are doing it in bad faith. Provide the proof the victim was doing nothing wrong and they'll just move the goal posts.
But we should strive to tell the whole story where we can. It usually adds to how bad the video is.

The main one that stands out in my mind is those 2 black people whose car randomly was attacked by police.... We have no idea just looking at the video who they are. They might well be criminals who just killed somebody. Provide the proper story that they're just students returning home though and it underlines the shittiness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:31:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Man, it is popular to be all panicked about technological progress and social media, but phone cameras and Twitter are proving to be the best weapons against police brutality.

Not sure why nobody has floated the idea of suspending cell service in protest areas and/or confiscating phones. It would be one of the next steps in "dominating the battle space", I suppose.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 06:34:07 AM
I don't really get police forces that fire people that have committed unwarranted violent acts, and then seem satisfied with that. "We've fired them!". Surely you wouldn't fire a guy if you didn't think he had done it, and if you think he has done it then why don't you arrest him?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:37:33 AM
One day:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZuK9LeU4AATFuL?format=jpg&name=small)

The next day:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZuLGAnU0AcUHKv?format=jpg&name=small)

(He was supposedly one of the cops telling the others to move on when the old man lay on the ground)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:14:29 AM
Yeah, I take everything back I said earlier. Thanks to the police, there are plenty of points to these protests.
It's almost like there's two layers to it - on the one hand there seems to be pervasive police impunity about their conduct and a default to violence. But that affects all sorts of people - including journalists, people who literally have a camera pointing at them, elderly people, paramedics etc - which to me indicates how "safe" the police feel behaving like this.

Then there's systemic and institutional racism. And because the two interact, African Americans are the most likely to suffer from this police impunity. They face it more and they face it worse.

But you know I always agreed with BLM and I remember thinking American cops seemed to behave outrageously way back in the "don't tase me, bro" days - which I think was at a John Kerry event. But it does just feel a lot more pervasive and a lot worse than I'd thought. I think a few years ago I would have emphasised the racial element, after the last few days I think I'd emphasise the police are out of control element. I am not sure what reform would work because it seems in so many places that you actually need root and branch rebuilding.

I also think it's really striking how the national guard and military have interacted with crowds - I mentioned this earlier when vets were commenting - and for all the talk of de-militarising the police, which I agree with, I wonder if there's something to be learned in how the military clearly sort of see themselves and feel they should interact with the nation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:41:16 AM
But Syt, I don't think they could be expected to abort whatever they were doing and all gather around the injured guy. That seemed like it was taken care of how it should be in that situation, more or less. I mean, the need for them to do the whole counter-riot marching is questionable at best, I guess, but I mean given the situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:43:20 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:14:29 AM
Yeah, I take everything back I said earlier. Thanks to the police, there are plenty of points to these protests.
It's almost like there's two layers to it - on the one hand there seems to be pervasive police impunity about their conduct and a default to violence. But that affects all sorts of people - including journalists, people who literally have a camera pointing at them, elderly people, paramedics etc - which to me indicates how "safe" the police feel behaving like this.

Then there's systemic and institutional racism. And because the two interact, African Americans are the most likely to suffer from this police impunity. They face it more and they face it worse.

But you know I always agreed with BLM and I remember thinking American cops seemed to behave outrageously way back in the "don't tase me, bro" days - which I think was at a John Kerry event. But it does just feel a lot more pervasive and a lot worse than I'd thought. I think a few years ago I would have emphasised the racial element, after the last few days I think I'd emphasise the police are out of control element. I am not sure what reform would work because it seems in so many places that you actually need root and branch rebuilding.

I also think it's really striking how the national guard and military have interacted with crowds - I mentioned this earlier when vets were commenting - and for all the talk of de-militarising the police, which I agree with, I wonder if there's something to be learned in how the military clearly sort of see themselves and feel they should interact with the nation.

Yes. I feel like these events are really the final nail in the coffin for my respect to the American system, let alone my desire to live there. It is not entirely surprising, or unexpected, but definitely disturbing and sad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:43:20 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:14:29 AM
Yeah, I take everything back I said earlier. Thanks to the police, there are plenty of points to these protests.
It's almost like there's two layers to it - on the one hand there seems to be pervasive police impunity about their conduct and a default to violence. But that affects all sorts of people - including journalists, people who literally have a camera pointing at them, elderly people, paramedics etc - which to me indicates how "safe" the police feel behaving like this.

Then there's systemic and institutional racism. And because the two interact, African Americans are the most likely to suffer from this police impunity. They face it more and they face it worse.

But you know I always agreed with BLM and I remember thinking American cops seemed to behave outrageously way back in the "don't tase me, bro" days - which I think was at a John Kerry event. But it does just feel a lot more pervasive and a lot worse than I'd thought. I think a few years ago I would have emphasised the racial element, after the last few days I think I'd emphasise the police are out of control element. I am not sure what reform would work because it seems in so many places that you actually need root and branch rebuilding.

I also think it's really striking how the national guard and military have interacted with crowds - I mentioned this earlier when vets were commenting - and for all the talk of de-militarising the police, which I agree with, I wonder if there's something to be learned in how the military clearly sort of see themselves and feel they should interact with the nation.

Yes. I feel like these events are really the final nail in the coffin for my respect to the American system, let alone my desire to live there. It is not entirely surprising, or unexpected, but definitely disturbing and sad.

That's just silly but oh well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:47:35 AM
Ok "respect" is a strong word as  I haven't lost all respect for the entire system, obviously.

Perhaps "disillusionment" is the correct word to how I am feeling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:53:20 AM
I mean as I say I always think there's a good America and a bad America; an America of radical promise and intense reaction. The "good America" is providing the analysis and the language for activists around the world right now who are facing their systemic racism and out of control police.

I know some people see that as Europeans importing unwanted and annoying American style political correctness. But I think it's simply that American activists etc have done the work already and now we can use it - similar stuff happened with gay rights activism. I mean the major LGBT organisation in the UK is called Stonewall.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 05, 2020, 07:02:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 01:33:03 AM
NYT has apologized for running the Tom Cotton op-ed.

I am actually not sure they should...I think it is a good idea when ridiculous viewpoints are given a spotlight.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 07:06:55 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 05, 2020, 07:02:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 01:33:03 AM
NYT has apologized for running the Tom Cotton op-ed.

I am actually not sure they should...I think it is a good idea when ridiculous viewpoints are given a spotlight.
Yeah I also sort of think even if you don't run the op-ed the content is newsworthy: US Senator calls for army to be deployed domestically against American protests.

Or, as the Onion put it, "Republican Leaders Claim New Yorkers Will Greet U.S. Military As Liberators" :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2020, 07:08:56 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 05, 2020, 07:02:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 01:33:03 AM
NYT has apologized for running the Tom Cotton op-ed.

I am actually not sure they should...I think it is a good idea when ridiculous viewpoints are given a spotlight.

I agree.  Unless you let the Republican party reveal its ugly heart, people might not realize how far it is from the party of Lincoln.  A bunch of Republicans saying ugly things on an ugly Faux Snooze broadcast with ugly-hearted hosts is just preaching to the choir.  The broader public needs to know about this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 05, 2020, 07:54:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.

The larger crime here (sorry to the old guy who was assaulted) is not the assault.

Who is being suspended and charged for falsifying a police report?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 08:06:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2020, 07:54:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.

The larger crime here (sorry to the old guy who was assaulted) is not the assault.

Who is being suspended and charged for falsifying a police report?

I think the official explanation was that the initial report was written by one of the cops further back who didn't see the shove. I.e. they try to pass it off as an honest mistake.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 08:16:15 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 08:06:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2020, 07:54:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.

The larger crime here (sorry to the old guy who was assaulted) is not the assault.

Who is being suspended and charged for falsifying a police report?

I think the official explanation was that the initial report was written by one of the cops further back who didn't see the shove. I.e. they try to pass it off as an honest mistake.

Convenient.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 07:06:55 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 05, 2020, 07:02:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 01:33:03 AM
NYT has apologized for running the Tom Cotton op-ed.

I am actually not sure they should...I think it is a good idea when ridiculous viewpoints are given a spotlight.
Yeah I also sort of think even if you don't run the op-ed the content is newsworthy: US Senator calls for army to be deployed domestically against American protests.

Or, as the Onion put it, "Republican Leaders Claim New Yorkers Will Greet U.S. Military As Liberators" :lol:

I think there is some difference between said headline and choosing to devote printed space to such an opinion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on June 05, 2020, 09:00:35 AM
I happened to catch a couple of minutes of RT on this when I was flipping through the news channels, entirely different 'viewpoint' but it reminded me very much of Fox News in style and approach; both equally effective propaganda arms of increasingly thuggish 'regimes'? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 05, 2020, 09:03:39 AM
This is a totally normal transcript of a totally normal interview with a totally normal person:

(https://i.ibb.co/g3TpWHP/Insane.png) (https://ibb.co/2ytQMms)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2020, 09:04:06 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 06:53:20 AM
I mean as I say I always think there's a good America and a bad America; an America of radical promise and intense reaction. The "good America" is providing the analysis and the language for activists around the world right now who are facing their systemic racism and out of control police.

I know some people see that as Europeans importing unwanted and annoying American style political correctness. But I think it's simply that American activists etc have done the work already and now we can use it - similar stuff happened with gay rights activism. I mean the major LGBT organisation in the UK is called Stonewall.

What is funny to see is all these complaints of the UK being too americanised and taking on issues that have nothing to do with us, from the very people who have been guilty of doing that for years.
It's really fascinating how things have completely flipped.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 09:30:07 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 05, 2020, 09:03:39 AM
This is a totally normal transcript of a totally normal interview with a totally normal person:

Stayed more on topic or at least topic-adjacent than I expected him to, but my expectations are quite low at this point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 09:39:19 AM
Just a friendly neighborhood cop kicking a woman to the curb:

https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1268895318843809793?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 10:04:36 AM
Meanwhile, in LA.

(https://i.redd.it/1s4lm8ukq2351.jpg)

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101876600_2831883126921135_4397092843680694272_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=a26aad&_nc_ohc=xih3qH8w7_IAX9kzfeb&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=36c4de86d3e87fa177393bd1c33a5c2a&oe=5EFF20BF)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2020, 10:54:36 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:41:16 AM
But Syt, I don't think they could be expected to abort whatever they were doing and all gather around the injured guy. That seemed like it was taken care of how it should be in that situation, more or less. I mean, the need for them to do the whole counter-riot marching is questionable at best, I guess, but I mean given the situation.
As it should be? Not one cop helped him.  He was helped by national guardsmen who happened to be nearby. Without them he would have likely died.  The officers who shoved him should be fired and charged with assault. Every officer who passed him by should be fired.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.

Man, it is popular to be all panicked about technological progress and social media, but phone cameras and Twitter are proving to be the best weapons against police brutality.

On the policemen walking past though: the closest one wanted to kneel down to the old guy, but then the other hand (supposedly his superior) pushed him onward and started calling it in, so I assume the rest just knew it was being taken care of. I mean, I just kind of must assume that.

It looks like the one who pushed him tried to help him, and his superior pulled him on while calling it in. If you keep watching the video, the National Guard comes in to help the old man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 05, 2020, 10:58:47 AM
So proud to have this guy represent my city :showoff:

https://twitter.com/joes_talk/status/1268612609080651776?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on June 05, 2020, 10:58:49 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 10:04:36 AM
Meanwhile, in LA.

(https://i.redd.it/1s4lm8ukq2351.jpg)

To Serve And To Protect
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 05, 2020, 11:15:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 05, 2020, 10:58:49 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 10:04:36 AM
Meanwhile, in LA.



To Serve And To Protect

(https://preview.redd.it/t1yak858g6d21.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=1dd4f46263b7a91fe934f8c300007c3209bebb02)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 05, 2020, 10:58:47 AM
So proud to have this guy represent my city :showoff:

https://twitter.com/joes_talk/status/1268612609080651776?s=20

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 12:03:27 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:41:16 AM
But Syt, I don't think they could be expected to abort whatever they were doing and all gather around the injured guy. That seemed like it was taken care of how it should be in that situation, more or less. I mean, the need for them to do the whole counter-riot marching is questionable at best, I guess, but I mean given the situation.

I award you 4 out of a possible 5 Monorius.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Iormlund on June 05, 2020, 12:04:25 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 05, 2020, 12:05:54 PM
That ain't anywhere near a perfect score on the Mono scale.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 12:06:29 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 05, 2020, 10:58:49 AM
To Serve And To Protect

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZwAhkrXQAAgNty?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 12:08:29 PM
I think Sheilbh said it pages and pages and days ago, but this has been an absolute triumph for BLM and broader anti police protests. They have drawn the police and their true nature out into the open for all to see. I'm staggered by what I'm seeing honestly. Police around the country are coming out of the last ten days looking reckless and out of control. They have essentially legitimized the whole point of the protests.

Thorough root and branch reform is urgent and I think that notion is going to gather traction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:41:01 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 12:08:29 PM
I think Sheilbh said it pages and pages and days ago, but this has been an absolute triumph for BLM and broader anti police protests. They have drawn the police and their true nature out into the open for all to see. I'm staggered by what I'm seeing honestly. Police around the country are coming out of the last ten days looking reckless and out of control. They have essentially legitimized the whole point of the protests.

Thorough root and branch reform is urgent and I think that notion is going to gather traction.

I agree politically it has gone very well for BLM.  They just need to watch out for over-reach.  On Twitter I've seen a bunch of calls to Defund the police, or get rid of the police - I don't think there's any public appetite for anything like that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:41:01 PMOn Twitter I've seen a bunch of calls to Defund the police, or get rid of the police - I don't think there's any public appetite for anything like that.

:contract:

Quote from: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 08:39:16 PM
QuoteMinneapolis City Council members consider disbanding the police

(...)
Now the council members are listening to a city that is wounded, angry, fed up with decades of violence disproportionately visited upon black and brown residents. Various private and public bodies – from First Avenue to Minneapolis Public Schools – have essentially cut ties with the police department. Council members are trying to figure out what their next move is.
(...)
On Tuesday, (Council Member) Steve Fletcher published a lengthy Twitter thread saying the police department was "irredeemably beyond reform," and a "protection racket" that slows down responses as political payback.

"Several of us on the council are working on finding out what it would take to disband the Minneapolis Police Department and start fresh with a community-oriented, nonviolent public safety and outreach capacity," he wrote.

QuoteSteve Fletcher - Minneapolis Ward 3
@MplsWard3
Bob Kroll's letter yesterday to the Minneapolis Police Federation membership showed us what rank-and-file officers voted for in their leadership, and it is yet another sign that the department is irredeemably beyond reform.
Fletcher says the entire council "to some degree" has been discussing disbanding the police department as an option. He doesn't yet know what that will look like. He suspects it's a transition that will take time, and the involvement – and possibly voting capacity – of residents.

But now more than ever, this feels within reach. Earlier this week, the council members unanimously signed on in support of the Minnesota Department of Human Rights' incoming investigation into the police department.

The power of state law, Fletcher says, might allow them to do things once thought "politically impossible" on the city level.

Even, say, recently. In 2018, the council voted to divert all of $1.1 million away from the police and toward "community-driven public safety programs." Last year, Mayor Jacob Frey's initial budget proposal called for hiring 14 additional police officers. After loud criticism from activists, Frey and the council compromised on a plan to hire 38 police cadets, with other funding going toward violence prevention.

Fletcher's looking forward to "conversations" with the community on how a new public safety approach would work – including some deeply uncomfortable conversations about use of force, and whether it still has a place in the city's approach to law enforcement. But what he's seen the community do already to take care of itself – forming fire watches, putting up unhoused folks in hotels, looking out for one another in a time of unrest – gives him hope for the future.

After all, this is an idea that came from residents – led by black and brown people – in the first place.

"This is our responsibility for not getting this done faster," he says.

What the councilman seems to be referring to in the quoted tweet of the article as proof of the unreformability of the city's police department is a letter by the President of the Minneapolis Police Union, who seems like an unmitigable piece of shit:

QuoteMINNEAPOLIS POLICE UNION PRESIDENT: "I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN THREE SHOOTINGS MYSELF, AND NOT A ONE OF THEM HAS BOTHERED ME"

IN AN INTERVIEW in April, Lt. Bob Kroll, head of Minneapolis's police union, said that he and a majority of the Minneapolis Police Officers' Federation's board have been involved in police shootings. Kroll said that he and the officers on the union's board were not bothered by the shootings, comparing themselves favorably to other officers.

"There's been a big influx of PTSD," Kroll said. "But I've been involved in three shootings myself, and not one of them has bothered me. Maybe I'm different."

His comments underscore the rampant nature of police violence in the United States. The number of times police officers fire their weapons swamps the level of violence in most other countries, where authorities rely on nonlethal methods of coercion, persuasion, or control. Many police officers live with post-traumatic stress disorder induced by the violence associated with policing.

But not Kroll's crew, he said. "Out of the 10 board members, over half of them have been involved in armed encounters, and several of us multiple. We don't seem to have problems," he said. "Certainly getting shot at and shooting people takes a different toll, but if you're in this job and you've seen too much blood and gore and dead people then you've signed up for the wrong job."

Kroll has been a central figure in the unfolding protests and riots following the killing of George Floyd by Minnesota police officer Derek Chauvin. In a letter to union members on Monday, Kroll called Floyd a "violent criminal" and described the ongoing protests as a "terrorist movement" that was years in the making, starting with a minimized police force. He railed against the city's politicians, namely Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and state Gov. Tim Walz, for not authorizing greater force to stop the uprising. "The politicians are to blame and you are the scapegoats," he wrote.

On Tuesday afternoon, the Minnesota AFL-CIO called for Kroll's resignation, blaming him for his role in "[enabling] violence and brutality to grow within police ranks." Police forces across the country have been escalating violence against demonstrators; driving vehicles into crowds; firing rubber bullets, tear gas, and flash grenades at largely peaceful gatherings; and even killing a man in Louisville, Kentucky.(...)
Kroll's politics are not incidental to what is effectively a police riot underway in Minnesota and across the country. He's one of Minnesota's more outspoken supporters of President Donald Trump and took the stage with him at a 2019 campaign rally to praise the administration for "letting the cops do their jobs."

According to a 2015 Star Tribune report, Kroll clocked at least 20 internal affairs complaints during his three decades in the Minneapolis Police Department, "all but three of which were closed without discipline." There have also been several lawsuits against Kroll, detailing a long history of allegations of bigoted comments, including one that accused him of using excessive force against an elderly couple during a no-knock raid and another that accused him of "beating, choking, and kicking" a biracial 15-year-old boy while "spewing racial slurs."

"The big buzzword they had was deescalation," Kroll said of police reform efforts. "You're supposed to, you know, even if you're lawful in using force, it could look bad and give a bad public perception."

Being trained not to use force is what's causing officers stress, Kroll said. "Certainly cops, it's not in their nature. So you're training them to back away," he said. "And it's just not a natural — that's where a lot of the stress does come from with the cops is not [having] the ability to grab somebody and say, no, step back or you're going to jail and if need be, by force."

Kroll also mocked the concept of procedural justice, an institutional reform meant to reduce police use of force through diversity and anti-bias training, saying that it's an opportunity for people of color to get back at white men. He said that in his early days of training, the rule was to "ask them nicely to do something the first time," then give them a "direct, lawful order" to do so, and if they refuse — "you make them with force, that's how you get compliance."

"Those days are over," he said. "Now, it is ask them, love them, call, you know, give them their space and give them their voice. And this is what they're training new officers. ... Our cops went through that and they're going, 'Oh my God.' Yeah, procedural justice. And the theory behind it being that, you know, the white men have oppressed everyone else for 200 years. So it's their opportunity to get back."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 05, 2020, 12:50:32 PM
The defunding argument has a lot of merit regarding reducing the situations in which police are the first responders and transferring that funding to others who have better training to deal with the issue - mental health as an example.

And of course defunding the purchase of military gear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 12:54:38 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 12:03:27 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:41:16 AM
But Syt, I don't think they could be expected to abort whatever they were doing and all gather around the injured guy. That seemed like it was taken care of how it should be in that situation, more or less. I mean, the need for them to do the whole counter-riot marching is questionable at best, I guess, but I mean given the situation.

I award you 4 out of a possible 5 Monorius.

Good job ignoring my point. FFS, just how much disclaimer do I have to add for not be taken for a fascist whenever I don't assume every policemen enjoys beating up innocents?

Aren't the police committing enough atrocities as it is, why do you want to dilute them by going apeshit overboard?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
:contract:

Minneapolis is only a small part of the overall Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Twin_Cities_7_Metro_map.png/773px-Twin_Cities_7_Metro_map.png)

It's the urban core, that will have more blacks, and more upscale whites.  It votes overwhelmingly democratic.

But "defund the police" will be toxic in the suburbs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:01:21 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
But "defund the police" will be toxic in the suburbs.

Aka, where police officers live.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 05, 2020, 01:04:42 PM
In Montreal, 92% of cops don't live on the Island.

Staggering stats.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Question for the room, because it came up in my Twitter feed, and I genuinely wonder.

Would we see the same amount of public support for the protests against police brutality and racism, if it was overwhelmingly black protesters who protested and were assaulted by the police?

I.e. does the copious footage of white Americans being treated so harshly increase the overall positive perception of the movement?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 01:07:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Question for the room, because it came up in my Twitter feed, and I genuinely wonder.

Would we see the same amount of public support for the protests against police brutality and racism, if it was overwhelmingly black protesters who protested and were assaulted by the police?

I.e. does the copious footage of white Americans being treated so harshly increase the overall positive perception of the movement?

Of course it does.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:09:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Question for the room, because it came up in my Twitter feed, and I genuinely wonder.

Would we see the same amount of public support for the protests against police brutality and racism, if it was overwhelmingly black protesters who protested and were assaulted by the police?

I.e. does the copious footage of white Americans being treated so harshly increase the overall positive perception of the movement?

Yes. Some people just will not move until they feel personally impacted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 01:10:02 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Question for the room, because it came up in my Twitter feed, and I genuinely wonder.

Would we see the same amount of public support for the protests against police brutality and racism, if it was overwhelmingly black protesters who protested and were assaulted by the police?

I.e. does the copious footage of white Americans being treated so harshly increase the overall positive perception of the movement?

It probably helps.  But I don't think people would be indifferent if it was overwhelmingly black protesters being assaulted.  After all this entire moment started when a black man was killed by police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:12:04 PM
I would suggest that those people were already on board.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 01:10:02 PM
But I don't think people would be indifferent if it was overwhelmingly black protesters being assaulted.  After all this entire moment started when a black man was killed by police.

Indifferent, no. Moved to action? Willing to reconsider their position? Entirely different thing.

I have been struck by how diverse the demonstrations I have attended are, this time around.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:18:05 PM
The comment that prompted my question was a comment by a (black) guy who said it took just one week of white kids being treated the way blacks have been treated for decades to suddenly get momentum on police reform. And I couldn't help thinking that he had a point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:18:05 PM
The comment that prompted my question was a comment by a (black) guy who said it took just one week of white kids being treated the way blacks have been treated for decades to suddenly get momentum on police reform. And I couldn't help thinking that he had a point.

I mean if you research it a little bit white people have been mistreated at a rate that most countries would find outrageous for decades, it is just not comparable to what black people have experienced. Which is why I foolishly thought we would all rally behind BLM back in 2014.

But, as DGuller pointed out at the time, it was just kind of accepted as collateral damage.

But it makes a huge difference when things are put on film and white people see said white people getting abused and then go "hey that could be me!". So hopefully this time things work out.

But this also shows just how out of control and out of touch and in their bubble the police are. We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
:contract:

Minneapolis is only a small part of the overall Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Twin_Cities_7_Metro_map.png/773px-Twin_Cities_7_Metro_map.png)

It's the urban core, that will have more blacks, and more upscale whites.  It votes overwhelmingly democratic.

But "defund the police" will be toxic in the suburbs.

So what? What do administrative boundaries have to do with the argument? The point is that there are initiatives in this regard not just from activists but from public officials as well. The mayor of LA just slashed something like 150 million dollars from the LAPD budget to divert it to social initiatives.

QuoteSome politicians are listening: the Los Angeles Police Department was set to receive a large increase in its annual budget from $1.189 billion last year to $1.86 billion (most of the budget increases were for new police bonuses) for 2020-2021 before Garcetti axed that move Wednesday, cutting $100-$150 million.

In New York, more than 40 city council candidates are calling for a $1 billion cut to the NYPD's $6 billion budget over four years to help fund other programs such as the city's summer youth employment program.In cities such as Minneapolis, Dallas, Philadelphia, and Nashville, similar movements are gaining traction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 01:26:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:41:01 PM

I agree politically it has gone very well for BLM.  They just need to watch out for over-reach.  On Twitter I've seen a bunch of calls to Defund the police, or get rid of the police - I don't think there's any public appetite for anything like that.

Agreed. Tucker is pushing a narrative when I last watched of crazy black leftists calling for getting rid of the police entirely and ending a black "genocide" - it's Fox obviously so it's bonkers, but "defund the police" isn't going to play well. I absolutely agree with the idea that take some of that generous police funding and move it to social services where it would be better spent. That's a bit more fine grained than "defund the police" though obvs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 12:54:38 PM


Good job ignoring my point. FFS, just how much disclaimer do I have to add for not be taken for a fascist whenever I don't assume every policemen enjoys beating up innocents?

Aren't the police committing enough atrocities as it is, why do you want to dilute them by going apeshit overboard?

:hug:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 05, 2020, 01:29:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

Yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:30:23 PM
So that is not so crazy. Really just police reform. It is a little misleading to present it that way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 01:33:02 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 05, 2020, 01:26:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:41:01 PM

I agree politically it has gone very well for BLM.  They just need to watch out for over-reach.  On Twitter I've seen a bunch of calls to Defund the police, or get rid of the police - I don't think there's any public appetite for anything like that.

(...) "defund the police" isn't going to play well. I absolutely agree with the idea that take some of that generous police funding and move it to social services where it would be better spent. That's a bit more fine grained than "defund the police" though obvs.

All the news pieces I've seen on the issue go on that direction, moving budget from police to social services, it's not just slashing the police budget just because.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 05, 2020, 01:34:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

who are you going to hire though?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 05, 2020, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:30:23 PM
So that is not so crazy. Really just police reform. It is a little misleading to present it that way.

It is union & expertise breaking tho.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:36:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

It's three different things:

1) Disbanding organizations that are too hopelessly corrupt to be reformed.

2) Defunding those that remain, so that the enormous amount of money that go to police go to people who would do a much better job. So many calls to police about neighborhood disputes, mental illness emergencies, drug addict in crisis etc. are needlessly escalated into violence and imprisonment by officers who are clearly unqualified to answer these specific challenges. This is especially true in the US where training is minimal in the best of circumstances, and funding is enormous.

3) Some are indeed pushing for the elimination of police forces. It's indeed radical, but not utopian. Police forces are a relatively recent innovation, not a natural or inevitable institution.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 05, 2020, 01:36:43 PM
you won't get true change in the police force until you "break" the unions. not sure how that will get done though, and what, if anything, will replace them
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 05, 2020, 01:38:41 PM
It might seems more insane to use because we start wondering who's going to wage the war on drugs & the other dumb things our police forces enforce from previous racist government edicts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

I've heard that it's really about ending the Unions. They're seen as the number one problem in fixing this situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 05, 2020, 01:36:43 PM
you won't get true change in the police force until you "break" the unions. not sure how that will get done though, and what, if anything, will replace them

Ask all the Reagan fanboys.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
Just had a look, because the number seemed insane. Based on the 2020-21 budget for LA, 41% of the city's budget goes to the police ($1.857B out of $4.486B): http://cao.lacity.org/budget20-21/2020-21Budget_Summary.pdf (page 12)

They make up 44% of the city's salary budget.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:56:00 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:36:12 PM
3) Some are indeed pushing for the elimination of police forces. It's indeed radical, but not utopian. Police forces are a relatively recent innovation, not a natural or inevitable institution.

Sure if by recent you mean mid 19th century. As much as I want to bring offenders to the magistrate like the ye olde days I don't think that is going to make things much better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:18:05 PM
The comment that prompted my question was a comment by a (black) guy who said it took just one week of white kids being treated the way blacks have been treated for decades to suddenly get momentum on police reform. And I couldn't help thinking that he had a point.

I am sure it plays the part but that's not it. First of all the original incident with Floyd is one of the most brutal clear-cut gut-wrenching episode of the long series of documented racist violence by the US police.

Then you have this series of also well documented police brutality during the protests which I am sure helps fuel it, and offset the "them blacks are looting again" narrative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 05, 2020, 02:23:45 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

I've heard that it's really about ending the Unions. They're seen as the number one problem in fixing this situation.

Then why don't people say that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 02:31:30 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Question for the room, because it came up in my Twitter feed, and I genuinely wonder.

Would we see the same amount of public support for the protests against police brutality and racism, if it was overwhelmingly black protesters who protested and were assaulted by the police?

I.e. does the copious footage of white Americans being treated so harshly increase the overall positive perception of the movement?

I don't see the evidence for that.  Protest crowds seemed to be mixed race from the beginning.  I've only seen the one survey, the one that Timmy linked, and it came out fairly early in the process.  There's the proposed bill about stopping transfer of miliitary surplus to police.  Was that introduced because Pelosi cared about white protestors and media being abused?  I wouldn't say so, but how can you really know.  The question, and the assumption underlying it, seem designed to maintain permanent grievance.  Otherwise why ask it? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 05, 2020, 02:23:45 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

I've heard that it's really about ending the Unions. They're seen as the number one problem in fixing this situation.

Then why don't people say that?

:huh:

They do. That's why it's what I've heard, and most of the people I've heard who are protesting or supporting protesters are saying it.

The fact that the New York State Union president sent out a letter basically saying that de Blasio is a pansy doesn't really help.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

American citizens generally.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

Duh. That's the default.

How could you possibly forget?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

American citizens generally.

Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

White American citizens generally.

FYPFY

You should probably know that it really isn't "all Americans" on this. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.

What? You hate firefighters and EMTs as well?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:38:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
FYPFY

You should probably know that it really isn't "all Americans" on this. :)

If you say so. Generally our media and culture encourage us to call the police and other emergency personnel in appropriate situations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.

What? You hate firefighters and EMTs as well?

You lead with the police. I don't think I've ever felt supportive of the police. I don't think I've ever been conditioned to support them either.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 05, 2020, 02:40:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:38:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
FYPFY

You should probably know that it really isn't "all Americans" on this. :)

If you say so. Generally our media and culture encourage us to call the police and other emergency personnel in appropriate situations.

It is not that controversial is it.  Same goes for indigenous people here.  Ask them who they trust and police would rank the bottom of the list.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:41:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.

What? You hate firefighters and EMTs as well?

You lead with the police. I don't think I've ever felt supportive of the police. I don't think I've ever been conditioned to support them either.

I thought I was clear I talking about all first responder personnel.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:41:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:41:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.

What? You hate firefighters and EMTs as well?

You lead with the police. I don't think I've ever felt supportive of the police. I don't think I've ever been conditioned to support them either.

I thought I was clear I talking about all first responder personnel.

They aren't all the same.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:42:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.

What? You hate firefighters and EMTs as well?

Do you think that firefighters and EMTs treat black people the same as white people? Because I'm going to go with no, not so much.

It's not about hating. It's about lacking trust, and it's with cause.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Question for the room, because it came up in my Twitter feed, and I genuinely wonder.

Would we see the same amount of public support for the protests against police brutality and racism, if it was overwhelmingly black protesters who protested and were assaulted by the police?

I.e. does the copious footage of white Americans being treated so harshly increase the overall positive perception of the movement?
Hugely, for sure. But I think there's two parts to it and an element of that was getting white people to care enough to join the protests. Then the violence has been fairly uncontrolled by the police I'd say.

But you know this always the way with any minority rights the key is getting the majority to care and to sympathise. All minority rights depend on a degree of support from the majority and the easiest way to get that is common or shared suffering.

Quote
The fact that the New York State Union president sent out a letter basically saying that de Blasio is a pansy doesn't really help.
But, in fairness, it's de Blasio:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZowGYgVcAAa4Ga?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:41:12 PM
:huh:

Using their service = supporting them?

Ok look I don't want to get into some kind of semantic discussion. If I was wrong I was wrong. I just see so much media generally supporting first responders as good people you can rely on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:45:33 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
The Buffalo video of the elderly gentleman being shoved is quite disgusting. Especially how many cops just walk past when a puddle of blood forms under his head. The original police report said the man "tripped and fell." They've since corrected it and suspended the officer who shoved him has been suspended without pay.

Man, it is popular to be all panicked about technological progress and social media, but phone cameras and Twitter are proving to be the best weapons against police brutality.

On the policemen walking past though: the closest one wanted to kneel down to the old guy, but then the other hand (supposedly his superior) pushed him onward and started calling it in, so I assume the rest just knew it was being taken care of. I mean, I just kind of must assume that.

It looks like the one who pushed him tried to help him, and his superior pulled him on while calling it in. If you keep watching the video, the National Guard comes in to help the old man.
From a local reporter:
QuoteDave Greber
@DaveGreber4
#BREAKING: I'm told the entire @BPDAlerts
Emergency Response Team has resigned from the team, a total of 57 officers, as a show of support for the officers who are suspended without pay after shoving Martin Gugino, 75. They are still employed, but no longer on ERT. @news4buffalo

So from what I've understood they are resigning in protest to support police burtality? :blink: :hmm:

Edit: And, incidentally, from what I've seen that elderly man has a serious head injury from this shove.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:46:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:41:12 PM
:huh:

Using their service = supporting them?

Ok look I don't want to get into some kind of semantic discussion. If I was wrong I was wrong. I just see so much media generally supporting first responders as good people you can rely on.

So here's where I'm going to ask you to stop and think about that. First, you live in Texas. Second, MOST of the media that you consume is written, produced, and supplied by white people. (I was going to say men, but I don't want to muddy the waters here. It's white PEOPLE who are the problem, including a hell of a lot of white women.)

You honestly can't say that because what you typically see in media is the overal impression by all Americans. It's a really good picture of what white American wants you to see. It's an incredibly important distinction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:46:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:41:12 PM
:huh:

Using their service = supporting them?

Ok look I don't want to get into some kind of semantic discussion. If I was wrong I was wrong. I just see so much media generally supporting first responders as good people you can rely on.

It isn't about semantics. You and white America might be conditioned to support the police and other first responders alike.

I've never had the same feelings of trust for the police as I do other emergency services.

And that isn't a semantic difference.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 02:46:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

White American citizens generally.

FYPFY

You should probably know that it really isn't "all Americans" on this. :)

Since we are playing trump stereotype, I'll trump yours with white middle class. I know plenty of white males (I'll wash myself after this, don't worry) who are disdainful of the police. But come to think of it, about 50% of them are lower classes, so there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:47:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:42:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Okay, well count me the way fuck out of that.

What? You hate firefighters and EMTs as well?

Do you think that firefighters and EMTs treat black people the same as white people? Because I'm going to go with no, not so much.

It's not about hating. It's about lacking trust, and it's with cause.

Did I say that? I was talking about something totally different. I was talking about how first responders, like the military, are often put forward as heroic figures culturally and talking about how the police have betrayed all that through their tone deafness and how out of touch they are. Suddenly that means I think there is no racism?

Ok I could be wrong. But stop with the strawmen please.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 02:46:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

White American citizens generally.

FYPFY

You should probably know that it really isn't "all Americans" on this. :)

Since we are playing trump stereotype, I'll trump yours with white middle class. I know plenty of white males (I'll wash myself after this, don't worry) who are disdainful of the police. But come to think of it, about 50% of them are lower classes, so there.

I've no idea what is happening with that post.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:45:33 PM
From a local reporter:
QuoteDave Greber
@DaveGreber4
#BREAKING: I'm told the entire @BPDAlerts
Emergency Response Team has resigned from the team, a total of 57 officers, as a show of support for the officers who are suspended without pay after shoving Martin Gugino, 75. They are still employed, but no longer on ERT. @news4buffalo

So from what I've understood they are resigning in protest to support police burtality? :blink: :hmm:

Edit: And, incidentally, from what I've seen that elderly man has a serious head injury from this shove.

Last I knew, he was in the ICU because of it.

And yeah, you're surprised? The Thin Blue Line is a big deal. You support your brothers in arms no matter what.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:45:33 PM
So from what I've understood they are resigning in protest to support police burtality? :blink: :hmm:

Edit: And, incidentally, from what I've seen that elderly man has a serious head injury from this shove.

I'm sure they think they're showing support for their colleagues, and indicating a displeasure that they've been suspended without pay.

But I don't think they really thought through the optics here...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 02:46:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
We are all conditioned to support the police and other first responders so getting so much of the country turned against them takes some truly shocking tone deafness and inteptitude.

Is the 'we' in this sentence, white people?

White American citizens generally.

FYPFY

You should probably know that it really isn't "all Americans" on this. :)

Since we are playing trump stereotype, I'll trump yours with white middle class. I know plenty of white males (I'll wash myself after this, don't worry) who are disdainful of the police. But come to think of it, about 50% of them are lower classes, so there.

Even the white trash I grew up with will say they trust the police the same as they trust a firefighter.

Afterall, it's only black folk who get beat up, amIrite?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
I'm sure they think they're showing support for their colleagues, and indicating a displeasure that they've been suspended without pay.

But I don't think they really thought through the optics here...
Yeah. I mean from what I can see they've got about 700 members. So about, what 7.5% are resigning in protest over this, plus the two officers who were suspended (not fired).

It's tough not to argue that that's such a systemic problem they need to be torn down and built again.

It's like the real meaning of bad apples shining through - bad apples ruin the rest of the barrel, you need to get rid of them. The solution isn't to just focus on the good apples.

Edit: Incidentally about 170 MPs from all parties are calling on the government to block the export of tear gas and rubber bullets to the US. I feel like this also belongs in the failed/failing/coup threads.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 03:00:44 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


FFS
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
I'm sure they think they're showing support for their colleagues, and indicating a displeasure that they've been suspended without pay.

But I don't think they really thought through the optics here...
Yeah. I mean from what I can see they've got about 700 members. So about, what 7.5% are resigning in protest over this, plus the two officers who were suspended (not fired).

It's tough not to argue that that's such a systemic problem they need to be torn down and built again.

It's like the real meaning of bad apples shining through - bad apples ruin the rest of the barrel, you need to get rid of them. The solution isn't to just focus on the good apples.

They're not resigning from the force, just from this one particular unit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
I'm sure they think they're showing support for their colleagues, and indicating a displeasure that they've been suspended without pay.

But I don't think they really thought through the optics here...
Yeah. I mean from what I can see they've got about 700 members. So about, what 7.5% are resigning in protest over this, plus the two officers who were suspended (not fired).

It's tough not to argue that that's such a systemic problem they need to be torn down and built again.

It's like the real meaning of bad apples shining through - bad apples ruin the rest of the barrel, you need to get rid of them. The solution isn't to just focus on the good apples.

They're not resigning from the force, just from this one particular unit.

It's the thought that matters! The whole unit though it it is ok to shove an old man to the pavement when he approaches you alone, unarmed, to talk to you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 03:05:09 PM
Also makes me wonder just what kind of orders do they have.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's not circling the wagons.  That's saying it's on the commander who gave the order.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:14:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's not circling the wagons.  That's saying it's on the commander who gave the order.

Oh :blush:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 03:18:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's not circling the wagons.  That's saying it's on the commander who gave the order.
By the union chief - we don't know what the 57 are doing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2020, 03:23:18 PM

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:36:12 PM
3) Some are indeed pushing for the elimination of police forces. It's indeed radical, but not utopian. Police forces are a relatively recent innovation, not a natural or inevitable institution.

The US organises its police strangely as I understand it. Towns setting up their own police all completely unrelated to each other?
It sounds a very logical solution would be to do away with these and set up a properly organised and accountable police forces on much bigger scales.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2020, 03:29:08 PM
I would point out that it would be pretty hard to maintain a functioning society without law enforcement, but I'd labelled right-win, so I won't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 05, 2020, 03:32:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's weird, usually when 50+ uniformed men in Buffalo quit it's during a playoff game.*



*Shamelessly stolen from Twitter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 01:36:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
I mean we need to have police. They just mean disbanding the current organizations and start new ones right?

It's three different things:

1) Disbanding organizations that are too hopelessly corrupt to be reformed.

2) Defunding those that remain, so that the enormous amount of money that go to police go to people who would do a much better job. So many calls to police about neighborhood disputes, mental illness emergencies, drug addict in crisis etc. are needlessly escalated into violence and imprisonment by officers who are clearly unqualified to answer these specific challenges. This is especially true in the US where training is minimal in the best of circumstances, and funding is enormous.

3) Some are indeed pushing for the elimination of police forces. It's indeed radical, but not utopian. Police forces are a relatively recent innovation, not a natural or inevitable institution.

The problem with eliminating police is that, as violent, racist and corrupt as many in the US are, the vacuum will likely be filled by worse.

America has a lengthy history of vigilante law enforcement in the era preceding the existence of police forces, and historically this was not to the advantage of Blacks or other minorities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 03:48:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
The problem with eliminating police is that, as violent, racist and corrupt as many in the US are, the vacuum will likely be filled by worse.

America has a lengthy history of vigilante law enforcement in the era preceding the existence of police forces, and historically this was not to the advantage of Blacks or other minorities.

No one who is pushing for the total elimination of police forces - *again*, a radical proposition - is advocating for vacuum, nor for vigilantism or roving bands of armed supremacist. They are arguing for police to be replaced by other forms of policing that reflect our ambitions for our communities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:51:55 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 03:48:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
The problem with eliminating police is that, as violent, racist and corrupt as many in the US are, the vacuum will likely be filled by worse.

America has a lengthy history of vigilante law enforcement in the era preceding the existence of police forces, and historically this was not to the advantage of Blacks or other minorities.

No one who is pushing for the total elimination of police forces - *again*, a radical proposition - is advocating for vacuum, nor for vigilantism or roving bands of armed supremacist. They are arguing for police to be replaced by other forms of policing that reflect our ambitions for our communities.

What sort of forms do they argue for?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 03:55:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:51:55 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 03:48:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
The problem with eliminating police is that, as violent, racist and corrupt as many in the US are, the vacuum will likely be filled by worse.

America has a lengthy history of vigilante law enforcement in the era preceding the existence of police forces, and historically this was not to the advantage of Blacks or other minorities.

No one who is pushing for the total elimination of police forces - *again*, a radical proposition - is advocating for vacuum, nor for vigilantism or roving bands of armed supremacist. They are arguing for police to be replaced by other forms of policing that reflect our ambitions for our communities.

What sort of forms do they argue for?

When I've looked into it it is all very academic and lacking in any specificity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 05, 2020, 04:03:35 PM
An older article from 2017 , but still relevant:

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/11/why-the-fraternal-order-of-police-must-go

QuoteWhy the Fraternal Order of Police Must Go

"A PACK OF RABID ANIMALS." That's how John McNesby, president of the Philadelphia Fraternal Order of Police, described local Black Lives Matter activists who picketed outside the home of a Philly cop who shot black suspects in the back on two separate occasions. After the officer was suspended, the local FOP had a fundraiser for him, with proceeds from the $40-per-ticket event going toward the officer's living expenses.

McNesby made the remarks at a Back the Blue rally in August and caught heat for his choice of words. It wasn't the first time. Another Philly cop made headlines last year for having a tattoo of a spread-winged eagle under the word "Fatherland." McNesby defended the cop's apparent shout out to the official emblem of the Nazi Party, saying the tattoo was "not a big deal."

In my book "Chokehold: Policing Black Men," I argue that the U.S. criminal justice system is premised on the control of black men and that this fact explains some of its most problematic features—mass incarceration, the erosion of civil liberties, brutal policing, and draconian sentences. The behavior of McNesby, and FOP leadership more broadly, further supports my claim.

Even as law enforcement has become more racially diverse, the FOP seems committed to putting white men in charge. Those leaders consistently take stances against the safety and rights of black Americans. As a result, the organization serves as a union cum fraternity for white cops and has a retrograde effect on policing, especially as it relates to civil rights.

The FOP is the nation's largest police association, boasting more than 300,000 members belonging to its 2,000 or so local chapters—some of which are unions and others which are simply fraternal organizations. There's also a national FOP that lobbies on various issues pertaining to law enforcement and labor.

The FOP's national leadership consists of seven white men. Such a lack of diversity is striking in an organization that claims 30 percent of its members are officers of color. And many local chapters appear to be run by white cops—even in cities with police forces that are predominantly of color.

Baltimore's police department, for example, is 44 percent black, but its FOP has never had a black leader. The D.C. FOP chapter board is mainly white, even though the Metropolitan Police Department is predominately black. The Chicago FOP has no black officers on the executive leadership team. Neither does the nine-member executive leadership board of the California state group.

Time and time again, those who are empowered to speak on behalf of the FOP have made it a point to support police officers involved in questionable shootings of black Americans and other alleged abuses.

One local chapter in Maryland raised money for Darren Wilson, the white officer who killed Michael Brown in Ferguson. After Chicago officer Jason Van Dyke was fired for shooting 16 bullets into Laquan McDonald, he was hired as a janitor by his local FOP.

After 12-year-old Tamir Rice was killed by a Cleveland officer, the president of the Miami FOP tweeted "act like a thug, you'll be treated like a thug." Jay McDonald, president of the Ohio FOP and the current vice president of the national FOP, started an online "Stand with Cops" petition asking for support for officers in the midst of the backlash to Tamir's killing.

Despite all of this, or perhaps because of it, the FOP has an outsized impact on criminal justice policy, especially in the Trump administration.

The organization endorsed Donald Trump for president during the 2016 race and soon after the election issued an "advisory" for the new administration's first 100 days. The document reads like a wishlist of everything a fan of violent and undemocratic policing could hope for, and the FOP got most of it.

They got the deprioritization of the Obama administration's policing commission recommendations, reversal of the DOJ's ban on private prisons, the return of civil asset forfeiture, the end of DACA and a crackdown on sanctuary cities—all of which aimed to reduce the harm done to communities of color by the criminal justice system.

Perhaps the biggest gift was delivered by Attorney General Jeff Sessions in person at the FOP's annual convention in August. Sessions was the event's keynote speaker and announced there that Trump would sign an executive order restoring the 1033 program, which gives local police departments surplus military equipment including bayonets, tanks, and grenade launchers. "We have your back and you have our thanks," Sessions told the crowd. According to news reports, the audience reacted "with roaring cheers."


Some might believe that the FOP's behavior and agenda are functions of its role as an organization that advocates for police, but the example of other police organizations suggests that's not the case.

The Major Cities Police Chief's organization supported the Obama policing commission's recommendations while the FOP advisory included "de-prioritizing" "some or all" of them. The FOP is known for defending just about any officer involved in the high-profile killing of a black man while the leadership of NOBLE, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, continually calls for police reform in response to such events.

Perhaps most striking: when the president urged police officers to not be "too nice" with suspects, his remarks were condemned by the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Police Foundation, the acting director of the DEA, and police chiefs across the country. The president of the national FOP's response? "The president's off the cuff comments on policing are sometimes taken all too literally by the media and professional police critics."

To be sure, the FOP's agenda is probably most informed by a warped sense of what it means to protect its membership and the law enforcement community more broadly. The result, however, is an organization that is regressive and anti-accountability with deadly consequences for communities of color, black communities in particular.

Something must be done.

Congress as well as state and local lawmakers should convene hearings on racial bias in the FOP to better understand an organization that operates with little transparency but is so heavily embedded in our system of policing. Additionally, civil rights organizations like the NAACP and the ACLU should target the FOP as a barrier to police accountability. Community organizations and activists should make it clear to their local police departments that citizens will never have confidence in cops who belong to a group so hostile to civil rights.

Finally, individual officers of conscience, and departments with a will to police democratically, should divest from the FOP. A mass resignation from the FOP by officers of color and their white allies would send the strongest message that an old boy network of Trump supporters does not represent the modern face of law enforcement.

The last part is maybe easier said than done. As unions, some local FOP chapters are entrenched in police departments around the country. They negotiate compensation and protect the labor rights of officers. Many provide life insurance, disability benefits, counseling services and legal representation for members. Still, they're not the only game in town.

There are other police organizations, some with more diverse leadership and better track records on civil rights, poised to displace the FOP. It's time that happens for all our sake.

The FOP, as currently constituted, should be relegated to the same historical dustbin as organizations like the Sons of the Confederacy and the White Citizens Council. Were it to go out of business, and more diverse voices in law enforcement lifted up, the streets would be safer and policing would be more transparent and accountable.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 05, 2020, 03:48:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
The problem with eliminating police is that, as violent, racist and corrupt as many in the US are, the vacuum will likely be filled by worse.

America has a lengthy history of vigilante law enforcement in the era preceding the existence of police forces, and historically this was not to the advantage of Blacks or other minorities.

No one who is pushing for the total elimination of police forces - *again*, a radical proposition - is advocating for vacuum, nor for vigilantism or roving bands of armed supremacist. They are arguing for police to be replaced by other forms of policing that reflect our ambitions for our communities.

Well, if they have a better plan, I'd be all for it.

I my opinion, policing can be improved with the following:

1 - get rid of the encroaching militarization of the police.
2 - police better integrated into the community.
3 - better training in de-escalation, particularly when dealing with the mentally ill.
4 - most importantly: strict oversight by an entirely separate and independent investigative agency with real teeth, preferably at the state (or provincial) level, to investigate every case where a police interaction leads to harm to a member of the public, with the power to recommend prosecutions.
5 - more accountability at every level: records of police/public interaction to be made as available as possible, records of disciplinary proceedings to be public, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 04:12:33 PM
Well, if they have a better plan, I'd be all for it.

I my opinion, policing can be improved with the following:

1 - get rid of the encroaching militarization of the police.
2 - police better integrated into the community.
3 - better training in de-escalation, particularly when dealing with the mentally ill.
4 - most importantly: strict oversight by an entirely separate and independent investigative agency with real teeth, preferably at the state (or provincial) level, to investigate every case where a police interaction leads to harm to a member of the public, with the power to recommend prosecutions.
5 - more accountability at every level: records of police/public interaction to be made as available as possible, records of disciplinary proceedings to be public, etc.

I, too, am all ears for ideas on how to improve policing, and the wider justice system.  What we have isn't great.  But here's my feedback on your suggestions.

1 - this is not the US.  We don't give surplus military equipment to our police.  We do have police tactical units, but they're fairly small and not widely used (although I almost hate when they are because then I get notes and reports from a dozen or more officers)

2 - what do you mean "integrated into the community".  I know EPS has specific "beat cops" for one neighborhood that has lots of bars, and also lots of homeless.  It's very effective, but it's really, really expensive way to assign several officers for just one street.  It's not really scalable.  Wanting police to live in the community?  Maybe as a condition of employment, but difficult in jurisdictions with really expensive real estate, and not sure how much it helps.

3 - police are absolutely taught de-escalation, at least in this country.  They are taught to use distance and to speak.  Problem is when the mentally ill person rushes at you with a weapon there's no time for de-escalation.

4 - we already do that.  In Alberta it's called ASIRT.  In Ontario it's SIU

5 - privacy, privacy, privacy.  Let's say someone has a bad day and police come on a suicide watch.  Does that person want that record made public?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2020, 04:12:33 PM
Well, if they have a better plan, I'd be all for it.

I my opinion, policing can be improved with the following:

1 - get rid of the encroaching militarization of the police.
2 - police better integrated into the community.
3 - better training in de-escalation, particularly when dealing with the mentally ill.
4 - most importantly: strict oversight by an entirely separate and independent investigative agency with real teeth, preferably at the state (or provincial) level, to investigate every case where a police interaction leads to harm to a member of the public, with the power to recommend prosecutions.
5 - more accountability at every level: records of police/public interaction to be made as available as possible, records of disciplinary proceedings to be public, etc.

I, too, am all ears for ideas on how to improve policing, and the wider justice system.  What we have isn't great.  But here's my feedback on your suggestions.

1 - this is not the US.  We don't give surplus military equipment to our police.  We do have police tactical units, but they're fairly small and not widely used (although I almost hate when they are because then I get notes and reports from a dozen or more officers)

2 - what do you mean "integrated into the community".  I know EPS has specific "beat cops" for one neighborhood that has lots of bars, and also lots of homeless.  It's very effective, but it's really, really expensive way to assign several officers for just one street.  It's not really scalable.  Wanting police to live in the community?  Maybe as a condition of employment, but difficult in jurisdictions with really expensive real estate, and not sure how much it helps.

3 - police are absolutely taught de-escalation, at least in this country.  They are taught to use distance and to speak.  Problem is when the mentally ill person rushes at you with a weapon there's no time for de-escalation.

4 - we already do that.  In Alberta it's called ASIRT.  In Ontario it's SIU

5 - privacy, privacy, privacy.  Let's say someone has a bad day and police come on a suicide watch.  Does that person want that record made public?

You make some good points.

1. I agree, this point was aimed at our US friends, where militarization is a big problem. My comments were for both sides of the border and I should have said so up front.

2. I mean more use of beat cops where that would make sense, cops to live within the communities (including subsidized housing were required), police forces to better reflect the local community were possible, police allocated to visit with community groups, etc. I know this would be expensive.

3. Again I agree the situation is better on this side of the border.

4. A critique of the Ontario SIU is that it lacks teeth. I don't know anything about the Alberta version. I agree the concept is good, but the execution needs to be rigorous.

5. We deal with privacy all the time - a mechanism to redact personal information could be used to preserve privacy. The purpose of this is to assure the public that, in a violent interaction between the police and the public, the police are not covering up for each other.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 04:39:16 PM
The current crisis does give me a rare feeling of hope that maybe things might be better at some point in the future. But then I am not on social media so...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

Fuck them. They lack moral and ethical courage anyway. Moving on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

What follows is right on brand though. That's a lot of small-dick energy on display.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

What follows is right on brand though. That's a lot of small-dick energy on display.

And his weight on her neck. Fucking tools.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:45:31 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

These are just painful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

It's pretty clear if you slow it down and watch it frame by frame.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 04:47:30 PM
Even if it was accidental that is not how you respond to a woman having her boob grabbed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

It's pretty clear if you slow it down and watch it frame by frame.

Yea that's the main takeaway. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

It's pretty clear if you slow it down and watch it frame by frame.

Yea that's the main takeaway. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand this post. :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2020, 04:51:56 PM
Got to say. As a white foreigner who has never had to deal with American cops, all these videos of police brutality is doing a lot to build empathy for black Americans and deep unease.  I hope I am not alone in this. The protests are working.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

It's pretty clear if you slow it down and watch it frame by frame.

Yea that's the main takeaway. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand this post. :mellow:

Figure it out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".
It is weird isn't it. School shootings happen with grim regularity, but we can't get rid of the guns but we need it to defend ourselves against tyranny, but then you've got a President wanting to "dominate the battle space" of American cities and it feels like I've heard not a fucking peep from the pro-gun lot.

It's like it's all, maybe about something else.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:54:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 05, 2020, 04:51:56 PM
Got to say. As a white foreigner who has never had to deal with American cops, all these videos of police brutality is doing a lot to build empathy for black Americans and deep unease.  I hope I am not alone in this. The protests are working.

They are much to Trump's angst.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:55:30 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

It's pretty clear if you slow it down and watch it frame by frame.

Yea that's the main takeaway. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand this post. :mellow:

Figure it out.

Yeah, not really in the mood to play games like this and I don't actually care that much since it's just snark anyway.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:56:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:55:30 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Cop securing woman grabs her boob. She tries to wrest free in reaction, gets nightsticked by cops for her insolence.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

To call that a purposeful boob grab is diluting the cop abuse brand IMO.

It's pretty clear if you slow it down and watch it frame by frame.

Yea that's the main takeaway. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand this post. :mellow:

Figure it out.

Yeah, not really in the mood to play games like this and I don't actually care that much since it's just snark anyway.

Likewise
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's not circling the wagons.  That's saying it's on the commander who gave the order.

Is "I was just following orders" a defense post Nuremberg?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 05:01:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's not circling the wagons.  That's saying it's on the commander who gave the order.

Is "I was just following orders" a defense post Nuremberg?
Only if intoxicated :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 05, 2020, 05:01:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

That's not circling the wagons.  That's saying it's on the commander who gave the order.

Is "I was just following orders" a defense post Nuremberg?
Only if intoxicated :)

Drunk bosses rule. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 05:05:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 05, 2020, 04:51:56 PM
Got to say. As a white foreigner who has never had to deal with American cops, all these videos of police brutality is doing a lot to build empathy for black Americans and deep unease.  I hope I am not alone in this. The protests are working.

Yeah our director said "Black Lives Matter" are our department meeting today. Quite an accomplishment by the police to get the Texas bureaucracy to make a statement of principle like that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 05, 2020, 05:07:50 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".

Yep, only cops should have guns.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:22:50 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 05, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
Is "I was just following orders" a defense post Nuremberg?

At Nuremberg they generally prosecuted the ones giving the orders too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
What follows is right on brand though. That's a lot of small-dick energy on display.

What do you consider to be an acceptable use of force?  Not intended to be facetious.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:30:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
What follows is right on brand though. That's a lot of small-dick energy on display.

What do you consider to be an acceptable use of force?  Not intended to be facetious.

Just review the French police's UoF during their recent riots in the last few years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on June 05, 2020, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".

I am actually very, very happy at how non-violent the protesters have shown themselves to be. We have a lot of guns in the USA, and the riot cops have not been massacred en masse despite the dozens of recorded incidents of them abusing the protests. Bravo to the marchers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:40:24 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:30:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
What follows is right on brand though. That's a lot of small-dick energy on display.

What do you consider to be an acceptable use of force?  Not intended to be facetious.

Just review the French police's UoF during their recent riots in the last few years.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-live-france-may-day-protests-tight-security

More where that came from.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:40:24 PM
https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-live-france-may-day-protests-tight-security

More where that came from.

So what?  Zoupa hasn't held up French police tactics as a model to copy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 05:43:57 PM
There's been a BLM rally in Corbin, Kentucky (birthplace of KFC), a 97% white town that until now was mostly famous for a 1919 race riot in which all the town's black inhabitants were marched at gunpoint to a freight train and sent out of town, which remained white only until well into the XXth century. I'd say if even a place like that has BLM stuff going on then the movement is completely accepted into the US mainstream.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:40:24 PM
https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-live-france-may-day-protests-tight-security

More where that came from.

So what?  Zoupa hasn't held up French police tactics as a model to copy.

He's just smug
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

Fuck them. They lack moral and ethical courage anyway. Moving on.

Actually since they just resigned from the team but are still employed, I think it's time for Buffalo to review how many of them it still needs in the roster.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

Fuck them. They lack moral and ethical courage anyway. Moving on.

Actually since they just resigned from the team but are still employed, I think it's time for Buffalo to review how many of them it still needs in the roster.

Agree
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 06:22:45 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

Fuck them. They lack moral and ethical courage anyway. Moving on.

Actually since they just resigned from the team but are still employed, I think it's time for Buffalo to review how many of them it still needs in the roster.

Agree

durka
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 06:23:57 PM
:lol: You bastards
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 06:25:12 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".

Well it is almost impossible to get rid of it, but even if we did I doubt it would make that much of a difference with regards to this issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 06:25:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 06:22:45 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 02:55:21 PM
"A few bad apples"

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/57-buffalo-cops-resign-to-support-suspended-officers-who-pushed-down-elderly-man/

Quote57 Buffalo cops resign to support suspended officers who pushed down elderly man

The entire Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team — a total of 57 officers — has resigned from the team in support of the two officers who pushed 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, seriously injuring him.

They are still employed, but no longer on ERT.

According to Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans, the cops who pushed Gugino down were just following orders.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Evans, said in a statement.

This is a developing story. Check WIVB4 for updates.


Jesus Christ. Talk about tone deaf. Circle the wagons!

Fuck them. They lack moral and ethical courage anyway. Moving on.

Actually since they just resigned from the team but are still employed, I think it's time for Buffalo to review how many of them it still needs in the roster.

Agree

durka

A racial slur...how classy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 06:25:45 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 05, 2020, 05:07:50 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".

Yep, only cops should have guns.

It is the only way to keep us safe from the cops :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 06:30:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 06:25:12 PM
Well it is almost impossible to get rid of it, but even if we did I doubt it would make that much of a difference with regards to this issue.

My initial reaction was the same, since this is a case of physically subduing a resisting perp and he'd already been patted down, but then I remembered that a number of the incidents right after Ferguson involved the perception or fear of weapons.  I'm thinking specifically of the kid with the toy gun and the austistic black guy and his handler who were sitting down.

But as you said, no chance of repealing the 2nd in our lifetimes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 05, 2020, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".


Well, I don't think that can be done.  What can be done is for all those left-wing protesters to armed themselves with firearms.  They didn't treat the milita assholes this way, so let's take a page from their book.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2020, 06:36:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
You lead with the police. I don't think I've ever felt supportive of the police. I don't think I've ever been conditioned to support them either.

I don't think any of us would include you in a group like "Americans generally."  Not even you think that you are a typical American.

I think that Valmy is right.  Outside of the inner cities, Americans generally did reflexively support the police and other first responders.  And I think that he is right to note that that support has been badly damaged by cops going rogue all over the place, right in front of the cameras, when cops used to save that shit for the black guys they pulled over at 2:00 AM.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 06:41:05 PM
Proud Boys canoodling with the Salem, Oregon, police.

https://twitter.com/Satellit3Heart/status/1268863536299675648?s=19
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:40:24 PM
https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-live-france-may-day-protests-tight-security

More where that came from.

So what?  Zoupa hasn't held up French police tactics as a model to copy.

He's just smug

:mellow: k.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2020, 06:44:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 06:25:12 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
You guys need to get rid of the 2nd amendment. It'd take a lot of wind out of the cops sail when they argue "I feared for my life so I shot him".

Well it is almost impossible to get rid of it, but even if we did I doubt it would make that much of a difference with regards to this issue.

You don't need to get rid of it, you just need the USSC to overturn the ten-year-old ruling that overturned 200 years of judicial precedent.  That will happen in our lifetimes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2020, 06:46:19 PM
Oh, and to beat a dead horse on kneeling:  Were you all OUTRAGED!!!111 at the DISRESPEKT shown to Frodo in this scene?

(https://preview.redd.it/2fc97gbt66k01.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=926b3a34b6cb279d6563d97faee43afcb07ec932)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
To respond to Yi, about the specific video in question: I don't know, but not that. Not even 10% of that.

Several cops beating the lady repeatedly with batons is just nonsensical when she has no weapons and is no threat. At this point, it just feels like the cops are enjoying it.

What about you? What do you feel would be an appropriate use of force in the video?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
To respond to Yi, about the specific video in question: I don't know, but not that. Not even 10% of that.

Several cops beating the lady repeatedly with batons is just nonsensical when she has no weapons and is no threat. At this point, it just feels like the cops are enjoying it.

What about you? What do you feel would be an appropriate use of force in the video?

I'm conflicted.  The optics are horrible, reminiscient of Rodney King.  On the other hand the first dude is smacking her thigh purposefully, as opposed to a bone.  And cops will need to force compliance in some situations.  Any kind of physical force is going to anger some people.  So I'm around 80% OK with the baton on the thigh.  Probably better than tackling her and having her head smack on the concrete.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 07:04:46 PM
Frodo should be waived on high! :angry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 07:09:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 07:04:46 PM
Frodo should be waived on high! :angry:

And go straight to hobbit university? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 07:11:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
To respond to Yi, about the specific video in question: I don't know, but not that. Not even 10% of that.

Several cops beating the lady repeatedly with batons is just nonsensical when she has no weapons and is no threat. At this point, it just feels like the cops are enjoying it.

What about you? What do you feel would be an appropriate use of force in the video?
I'm conflicted.  The optics are horrible, reminiscient of Rodney King.  On the other hand the first dude is smacking her thigh purposefully, as opposed to a bone.  And cops will need to force compliance in some situations.  Any kind of physical force is going to anger some people.  So I'm around 80% OK with the baton on the thigh.  Probably better than tackling her and having her head smack on the concrete.

The larger question is why even use force in this instance? What is gained? She's not a threat. It's just like the folks on their porch chilling and then they get shot at. How are they a threat?

Use of force needs to be a last resort. It seems for american cops, it's done almost right away to force compliance with whatever they feel like at the moment. Any challenge to their authority, even verbal, non-violent ones results in a violent response.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 05, 2020, 07:14:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 04:23:50 PM
3 - police are absolutely taught de-escalation, at least in this country.  They are taught to use distance and to speak.  Problem is when the mentally ill person rushes at you with a weapon there's no time for de-escalation.

not nearly enough, and they should not have to intervene alone in these cases, they aren't properly trained for that.  Raising your voice and shouting orders does not de-escalate a situation and will often result in the mentally hill charging at the cops with a knife :(

Just yesterday (or the day before), a police officer shot at a 26 yo 1st nation woman 5 times.  She apparantly had some mental health issues and felt threatened by someone (real or not is not known at this point).  Her boyfriend, currently in another city, called the cops to check on her because she wasn't responding to phone and he told them she feared someone living nearby.  Cop came in alone, the woman apparently had a knife, she was shot 5 times.

This happens a lot, way, way too often, regardless of the race or gender of the individual.  Police are ill equipped to deal with mental illness.  It ain't their fault, there's only so much you can cram into their 3 year classes.  You can't give them 3 more years of training on specific intervention methods on mentally hill patients, like those whose job it is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 07:22:39 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 05, 2020, 07:11:38 PM
The larger question is why even use force in this instance? What is gained? She's not a threat. It's just like the folks on their porch chilling and then they get shot at. How are they a threat?

Use of force needs to be a last resort. It seems for american cops, it's done almost right away to force compliance with whatever they feel like at the moment. Any challenge to their authority, even verbal, non-violent ones results in a violent response.

I can't tell enough about the situation from the clip to comment on the appropriateness of any police orders or use of force in this case.  I don't know what the two ladies were doing and what the cops told them to do.

My impression about quickness to resort to force does not match your.  My impression is based on the TV show Cops (which, arguably, is cops on their best behavior) but also on various sovereign citizen clips.  Those clips are sometimes filmed and posted by the sovereign citizens themselves to show the world how terrible and unlawful the cops treated them, and they usually show the opposite.  A lot of patience and a good deal of humor about these jackasses.

Now you can argue that it's different for blacks (although a good number of sovereign citizens are black) or when the camera video is not rolling and I can't dispute that, but I can say at the very least your generalization is a little broad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2020, 08:17:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2020, 07:04:46 PM
Frodo should be waived on high! :angry:

Then he'd be a free agent... on high?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 05, 2020, 08:52:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 05, 2020, 06:41:05 PM
Proud Boys canoodling with the Salem, Oregon, police.

https://twitter.com/Satellit3Heart/status/1268863536299675648?s=19 (https://twitter.com/Satellit3Heart/status/1268863536299675648?s=19)


I wonder to what degree the brutality seen in the response to the protests is due to the radicalization of the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 06, 2020, 12:25:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 05, 2020, 06:36:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
You lead with the police. I don't think I've ever felt supportive of the police. I don't think I've ever been conditioned to support them either.

I don't think any of us would include you in a group like "Americans generally."  Not even you think that you are a typical American.

I think that Valmy is right.  Outside of the inner cities, Americans generally did reflexively support the police and other first responders.  And I think that he is right to note that that support has been badly damaged by cops going rogue all over the place, right in front of the cameras, when cops used to save that shit for the black guys they pulled over at 2:00 AM.

Let's look at some links on public opinions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/yes-police-have-high-approval-ratings-americans-support-police-reform-too/

Washington Post leads with statement polls show Americans generally support the police as evidenced by generally high police support in Gallup polls.

But then look at that by race and a more complicated picture emerges.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/193586/public-opinion-context-americans-race-police.aspx

Now assuming the graph that comes from next link is accurate representation of the Gallup data then I think the following is defensible.

While one can reasonably claim that the majority of Americans reflexively support the police, it is important to recognize that the majority of African Americans cannot be described as such.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/confidence_in_police_1994-2015.html
(https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/confidence_in_police_1994-2015.jpg)

Note, if we look at respect for police the majority of whites and minorities respect the police. Even I've stated that, in jury selection of all places when explaining by aversion toward the police.

https://reason.com/2016/10/24/american-respect-for-police-hits-a-48-ye/

(https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/q60/uploads/assets/mc/jwalker/2016_10/racialbreakdown.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 06, 2020, 01:22:49 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 05, 2020, 05:40:24 PM
https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-live-france-may-day-protests-tight-security (https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-live-france-may-day-protests-tight-security)

More where that came from.

So what?  Zoupa hasn't held up French police tactics as a model to copy.



He's just smug


Eh, he can a bit hard to handle but he's an okay guy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: bogh on June 06, 2020, 01:24:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2020, 07:22:39 PM
My impression about quickness to resort to force does not match your.  My impression is based on the TV show Cops (which, arguably, is cops on their best behavior) but also on various sovereign citizen clips.  Those clips are sometimes filmed and posted by the sovereign citizens themselves to show the world how terrible and unlawful the cops treated them, and they usually show the opposite.  A lot of patience and a good deal of humor about these jackasses.

Now you can argue that it's different for blacks (although a good number of sovereign citizens are black) or when the camera video is not rolling and I can't dispute that, but I can say at the very least your generalization is a little broad.

This podcast about Cops is pretty interesting https://www.lamag.com/culturefiles/cops-podcast/.

They argue that the show has normalized what is essentially unacceptable police behavior - which has an eerie fit with your post above.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 02:35:02 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 05, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 05, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
:contract:

Minneapolis is only a small part of the overall Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Twin_Cities_7_Metro_map.png/773px-Twin_Cities_7_Metro_map.png)

It's the urban core, that will have more blacks, and more upscale whites.  It votes overwhelmingly democratic.

But "defund the police" will be toxic in the suburbs.
But in middle class to upper class white suburbs the police are already scaled way back compared to cities. If Johnny has a weed problem, there isn't a SWAT team busting through his door.  And if Johnny does end up in front of a judge, he's given second or third chances.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 02:37:36 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
Just had a look, because the number seemed insane. Based on the 2020-21 budget for LA, 41% of the city's budget goes to the police ($1.857B out of $4.486B): http://cao.lacity.org/budget20-21/2020-21Budget_Summary.pdf (page 12)

They make up 44% of the city's salary budget.

No wonder new infrastructure is hardly ever built in this country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:56:09 AM
I saw a WaPo number that over 1,000 people were killed by police in the USA in 2019. For comparison, in Germany that number was between 7 and 14 p.a. between 2014 and 2018. In Austria (ca. 10% the size of Germany) police shot 37 times at persons between 2012 and 2018, killing 6.

Also:

(https://colinmathers.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/police-killings-by-country.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 06, 2020, 03:49:48 AM
More detailed numbers for Sweden (number of people shot to death by cops per year). For 2019 the number is 1. Sweden has a population of roughly 10 million.

(https://i.ibb.co/kmJQSNh/PoliceSW.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 06, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812296/statistics-firearm-shotgun-certificates-england-wales-2018-2019-hosb0919.pdf

That's what, almost 1%?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Iormlund on June 06, 2020, 05:27:46 AM
And most of those will probably have long guns for hunting.

There are 3 million legally owned guns in Spain, and only 8500 of those are handguns in the hands of civilians.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 05:54:55 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 06, 2020, 05:27:46 AM
And most of those will probably have long guns for hunting.

There are 3 million legally owned guns in Spain, and only 8500 of those are handguns in the hands of civilians.

Yes indeed massive portion of those are shotguns.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 06, 2020, 06:25:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812296/statistics-firearm-shotgun-certificates-england-wales-2018-2019-hosb0919.pdf

That's what, almost 1%?

Okay?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 06:31:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 06:25:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812296/statistics-firearm-shotgun-certificates-england-wales-2018-2019-hosb0919.pdf

That's what, almost 1%?

Okay?

Fine, Americans don't have too many guns, it's fine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2020, 06:48:54 AM
(https://preview.redd.it/awii7rbrs8351.jpg?width=640&height=716&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=56de3363193fd53bc6f60b875241490842495505)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 06, 2020, 07:02:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 06:31:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 06:25:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812296/statistics-firearm-shotgun-certificates-england-wales-2018-2019-hosb0919.pdf

That's what, almost 1%?

Okay?

Fine, Americans don't have too many guns, it's fine.

I don't think anyone has said such a ridiculous thing. Just noting that it isn't really a point of national pride to be armed to the teeth.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 07:08:07 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 07:02:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 06:31:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 06:25:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 AM
To be fair having larger numbers in the US is inevitable. It's no excuse for the kind of shit they are pulling of course, but I would be scared shitless to be a policeman in the US, where it is  a matter of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812296/statistics-firearm-shotgun-certificates-england-wales-2018-2019-hosb0919.pdf

That's what, almost 1%?

Okay?

Fine, Americans don't have too many guns, it's fine.

I don't think anyone has said such a ridiculous thing. Just noting that it isn't really a point of national pride to be armed to the teeth.

It does seem like it is for a lot of your countrymen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 06, 2020, 07:34:47 AM
Not sure how to show the video

Rex Chapman🏇🏼 (@RexChapman) Tweeted:
This is madness.

A young woman sitting in the street — in obvious distress.

A policeman kicks her in the face.

We're apparently not better than this... https://t.co/CntGgvtqbP
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 09:46:52 AM
Buffalo cops are facing charges

https://abcnews.go.com/US/buffalo-police-officers-arrested-shoving-75-year-protester/story?id=71106787&
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 06, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
Does anyone here remember the days when human capital stock was the outrage?  Kind of puts things in perspective about what a real outrage is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 06, 2020, 11:05:02 AM
What the actual solutions are to the challenge of reforming the police in the US are, I'm not sure and I honestly just don't know enough about it to offer any useful comment, but it seems to be coalescing around the following;

1. End the fire hose of military surplus from the pentagon to police departments and there seems to be a bipartisan bill in congress shaping up with that intent. That's been going on for about 25 years I think, and it's not controversial to say police aren't infantry doing counter insurgency and the militarization has to end.

2. Police Unions - certainly appears to be a big part of the problem. Union busting in the united states ought not be impossible given the history of union busting but there would have to be some pretty robust political will to start that process.

3. End qualified immunity - As I understand it this is another big one, this combined with the police unions provides the miscreants with their willingness to go around fucking people up.

4. Defunding - sounds terrible to suburban ears, but diverting funding to areas that that better serve communities seems like a good idea.

5. Ending Teh War on Drugs!

I say all this with good intentions I hope, and I am broadly in favor of having lots of well funded and well trained police in the community - especially in communities that have high crime. Being raised in a British Middle Class Milieu I'm broadly in favor of policing, but a very very different version of policing than what currently exists in most places in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 06, 2020, 12:10:52 PM
I think there also has to be some acceptance that some of these things will trade lives for other goals.  I'm sure that if every cop drives around in full combat gear in armored vehicles, less of them will be killed in the line of duty than without those things, but cops coming home is not the one and only goal of policing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 06, 2020, 12:10:52 PM
I think there also has to be some acceptance that some of these things will trade lives for other goals.  I'm sure that if every cop drives around in full combat gear in armored vehicles, less of them will be killed in the line of duty than without those things, but cops coming home is not the one and only goal of policing.

Then you are ignorant of their/our general mindset. That is exactly what is in the forefront of their/our minds. It is drilled into their/our heads at the academies, training, even daily.

Not meaning to be snippy, just stating facts, however misguided or misinterpreted that mindset is.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:08:24 PM
1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate.

5. Etc

6. Etc
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:15:48 PM
Some white people got truly inspired by BLM.

https://twitter.com/ashlea_robyn/status/1269014378289995777

Quote
Ashlea Simon
@ashlea_robyn
If black lives matter can protest then so can we, today we visited Westminster bridge, the Cenotaph and Downing street to stand up for those being demonized for the colour of their skin, white people.
#Whitelifematters #whitelivesmattertoo #BritainFirst

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZxx1BSWsAMAVx3?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:19:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ2PuZ6UcAIu_R7?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ2PuZ6U8AACFDe?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ2PuZ9UwAAsHkw?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:25:26 PM
And a last one.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZy9pZ2VAAAr69s?format=jpg&name=small)

Oops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:40:28 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:15:48 PM
Some white people got truly inspired by BLM.

https://twitter.com/ashlea_robyn/status/1269014378289995777

Quote
Ashlea Simon
@ashlea_robyn
If black lives matter can protest then so can we, today we visited Westminster bridge, the Cenotaph and Downing street to stand up for those being demonized for the colour of their skin, white people.
#Whitelifematters #whitelivesmattertoo #BritainFirst

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZxx1BSWsAMAVx3?format=jpg&name=small)


White people  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:19:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ2PuZ6UcAIu_R7?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ2PuZ6U8AACFDe?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ2PuZ9UwAAsHkw?format=jpg&name=small)

Cops  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 02:42:18 PM
Kicking a cop in the shin is not a good idea.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:44:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 02:42:18 PM
Kicking a cop in the shin is not a good idea.

Apparently nowadays it's OK. She's a hero.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:47:37 PM
Seems minor compared to what the cops are getting away with.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:50:17 PM
Impound fees are a bitch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 03:01:36 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:47:37 PM
Seems minor compared to what the cops are getting away with.

Kicking one cop for each protestor that gets pushed to the ground is not going to help the cause.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
It isn't that you should kick cops and not get in trouble but the reaction here seems a bit disproportionate. Besides how is taking somebody's property not a violation of the 5th Amendment to the Constitution? Isn't there supposed to be a trial before penalties are applied?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 06, 2020, 03:43:43 PM
The only thing confusing is the car tow. The rest of it seems like yeah that's what happens when you assault a police officer?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 06, 2020, 03:47:49 PM
In today's climate you have to be thankful that it didn't get TOWed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2020, 03:57:07 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 06, 2020, 02:15:48 PM
Some white people got truly inspired by BLM.

https://twitter.com/ashlea_robyn/status/1269014378289995777

Quote
mall[/img]

This is madeline mccain or...?
I'm truly confused what they're even talking about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2020, 04:47:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 03:43:43 PM
The only thing confusing is the car tow. The rest of it seems like yeah that's what happens when you assault a police officer?

Agree.  The car tow seems like an example of a place where qualified immunity should not apply.  The cop who ordered it should pay the fees necessary to restore it to where it was, and lose his job.  No standard of "reasonability" would find that stealing her car to preemptively punish her was reasonable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 06, 2020, 04:53:33 PM
The Mayor of Buffalo has said he won't fire the two cops because they deserve due process and the 75 year old they shoved was an "agitator" and a "major instigator" in violence. I am not sure how those two things can go together.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 05:09:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 06, 2020, 04:47:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2020, 03:43:43 PM
The only thing confusing is the car tow. The rest of it seems like yeah that's what happens when you assault a police officer?

Agree.  The car tow seems like an example of a place where qualified immunity should not apply.  The cop who ordered it should pay the fees necessary to restore it to where it was, and lose his job.  No standard of "reasonability" would find that stealing her car to preemptively punish her was reasonable.

What the whole story or are we just speculating?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 06, 2020, 05:12:57 PM
In liberal Austin, protests unleash violence - then an indentity crisis (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-liberal-austin-protests-unleash-violence--then-an-identity-crisis/2020/06/05/6f6c158c-a762-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482_story.html)



QuoteAUSTIN — Steve Arawn remembers the moment he no longer recognized Austin, the city he has called home for more than a decade.
The 43-year-old volunteer medic was on a grassy embankment rushing to the aid of an injured protester in downtown Austin. Perched atop an elevated highway to his left, police officers were unleashing a volley of bean bag rounds into the crowd of demonstrators surrounding him.
Despite wearing a brightly colored vest adorned with red medical crosses, Arawn was shot in the wrist and thigh, making him one of hundreds of people injured by police weaponry during two days of protests across downtown Austin last weekend.

"The level of brutality was shocking," an astonished Arawn said a day later, his wrist bandaged and his leg marked by a dark red and purple bruise. "I just couldn't believe something like this was happening in Austin."

The people's republic of Austin is reeling. As protests against police brutality have swept the nation in the wake of George Floyd's killing in Minneapolis, the laid-back liberal oasis in Central Texas has witnessed some of the most acute violence in the country — a development that shocked many residents, as well as the city's liberal leadership. At a six-hour-long emergency city council meeting to review police protocols Thursday night, hundreds of Austinites berated city leaders and called for the police chief's ouster. An editorial in the Austin American-Statesman said the police response "compounded the outrage and pain that brought protesters to the streets to begin with." Reached by phone, Austin Mayor Steve Adler (D) said videos of the violence made him "incredibly uncomfortable." "It didn't seem right," he added.
But the shock did not extend to the east side of Interstate 35, a concrete rampart that has for decades sliced this community in half, both physically and culturally. In traditionally black and Hispanic neighborhoods on the city's east side, residents said the only thing surprising about police turning their weapons on the public is that anyone is still surprised when it occurs.

"The idea that this is a progressive city is just a liberal fantasy," said Nelson Linder, president of the Austin NAACP.


Austin police pledged this week to stop firing bean bag projectiles into large crowds after several black and Hispanic protesters were badly injured. A 16-year-old Hispanic teenager struck in the head and a 20-year-old black man, Justin Howell, was nearly killed by "less-lethal" ammunition. Relatives of Howell, a Texas State University student, say doctors have told them he has a fractured skull and brain damage.

In another instance, police shot a pregnant black woman with an "impact munition" that left her screaming for her baby, a harrowing scene that circulated widely on social media, unleashing fury across town.

At nightly protests outside police headquarters, demonstrators have begun holding signs calling for city leaders to "Defund the Police."

During a public address Monday, Austin Police Chief Brian Manley looked pained and held back tears as he said that the incidents had left him "crushed." But for many Austinites, the chief's comments were little more than performative penance, a disingenuous exercise in deflecting blame.

"I'm sad and heartbroken," said Eugene Sepulveda, a prominent Austin philanthropist and entrepreneur and a senior adviser to Adler, the mayor. "I have been in touch with our hired officials and elected officials expressing very loudly that this is not the Austin we know and love."

The appall reflects the sense of exceptionalism built into the fabric of Austin's psyche. Like a blue life raft in a sea of Texas red, the taco-obsessed, music-festival-embracing city long ago fashioned itself as a bohemian refuge for musicians, poets, intellectuals and slackers. Even now, nearly a half century past its hippie heyday, many Austinites consider their city more livable, beautiful and liberal than most places in America. Each afternoon, the city's blue-green waterways and parks fill with carefree crowds of young white people, basking in the sun, throwing flying discs and floating on paddle boards.

"Austin is a really cool place for people that are not aware of the injustices occurring in the world," said Chas Moore, founder of the Austin Justice Coalition. "I tell people all the time, Austin is white people's Atlanta. It's where a white person can come and fit right in and go anywhere and see themselves."

In the traditionally black and Hispanic neighborhoods on the city's east side, residents describe a different reality. Only a month ago, local activists noted, Austin police shot and killed unarmed 42-year-old Mike Ramos. At protests across the city, some black Austinites say they're regularly the victims of police brutality.

"I've lived here my whole life, and the first time I saw a cop kill someone innocent I was in elementary school," said Anthony Evans, 25, referring to the death of 18-year-old Daniel Rocha in 2005. "It was traumatizing, and we can't take these things anymore."[...]
Valmy, care to comment on the liberal fantasy part? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: frunk on June 06, 2020, 05:24:26 PM
Living Colour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9iJ_QG1rgM)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 06:54:01 PM
I love that for Yi and B4 that citizen was just asking for it since the cop got a 5 cm scratch on his shin. The cops response is meant to enforce submission, it's not in any way to protect the community.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:01:28 PM
When I kick police officers I take great care to leave a wound no longer than 4 centimeters.  Track record is very good so far.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 07:11:58 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 06:54:01 PM
I love that for Yi and B4 that citizen was just asking for it since the cop got a 5 cm scratch on his shin. The cops response is meant to enforce submission, it's not in any way to protect the community.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:01:28 PM
When I kick police officers I take great care to leave a wound no longer than 4 centimeters.  Track record is very good so far.

Har har. But do you think that the US population has been conditioned to view the disproportionate use of force by the police to any little offense as OK? I'm genuinely curious. I don't think other western citizens would respond as you and B4 have.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 06, 2020, 07:39:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:01:28 PM
When I kick police officers I take great care to leave a wound no longer than 4 centimeters.  Track record is very good so far.

Har har. But do you think that the US population has been conditioned to view the disproportionate use of force by the police to any little offense as OK? I'm genuinely curious. I don't think other western citizens would respond as you and B4 have.
Agreed - I remember this argument with the whole "don't tase me bro" incident in the 2000s at that Kerry event. I think basically everyone thought it was crazy and disproprtionate, except a big number of American posters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:45:03 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:34:27 PM
Har har. But do you think that the US population has been conditioned to view the disproportionate use of force by the police to any little offense as OK? I'm genuinely curious. I don't think other western citizens would respond as you and B4 have.

First, I don't agree with calling kicking an officer in the shins "any little offense."  I would object very strongly to someone kicking me in the shins.
Second, I don't know what you're talking about when you say the disproportionate use of force.  The cops showed up, put her in cuffs, and towed her car.  I don't see any force being used and none was mentioned in the comments.
Third, I am pretty sure the vast majority of western citizens would agree that striking a police officer is and should be a crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:54:55 PM
And yeah striking a police officer should be a crime, sure. Striking anyone is already a crime.

I think when you sign up and know you'll be doing anti-riot duty, you should sort of expect scratches and bruises. Honestly I just think he's a pussy if he thinks that's "assault". Hence why I believe the motivation is compliance and submission, not serve and protect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 07:55:12 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 06, 2020, 05:12:57 PM
Valmy, care to comment on the liberal fantasy part? :)

It's complicated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Either because they're fascist pigs compensating for their small dicks or because it was a volatile situation with tempers running high and friends and supporters gathering around.   Can't tell from the video.

I don't know why they towed her car.

Still don't see any force, disproportionate or otherwise, still think kicking a cop in the shin is wrong and illegal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 07:59:30 PM
I mean kicking anybody in the shin is wrong and illegal but generally doesn't result in that kind of fallout.

But with any crime the context is also important and she has not been found guilty of anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Either because they're fascist pigs compensating for their small dicks or because it was a volatile situation with tempers running high and friends and supporters gathering around.   Can't tell from the video.

I don't know why they towed her car.

Still don't see any force, disproportionate or otherwise, still think kicking a cop in the shin is wrong and illegal.

Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys seem to be fundamentally scared of your cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Either because they're fascist pigs compensating for their small dicks or because it was a volatile situation with tempers running high and friends and supporters gathering around.   Can't tell from the video.

I don't know why they towed her car.

Still don't see any force, disproportionate or otherwise, still think kicking a cop in the shin is wrong and illegal.

Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys seem to be fundamentally scared of your cops.

You just a tough guy aren't you Karen... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 08:14:56 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys seem to be fundamentally scared of your cops.

Sure, let's get past it.

I don't think objecting to someone kicking a cop in the shin is an indication of fear.  Here I am protected by the anonymity of the internet, with no risk that a cop will read my post about the joys of kicking cops in the shin and come after me, and I still think the same way.

I'm a little scared of cops when I know I'm breaking the law.  Driving after maybe one beer too many, or peeing in the park. I don't think they're going to be violent towards me unless I start something.  I think most Americans think cops should be treated with civility and respect.  They're not a punching bag for me to scream abuse at when I'm feeling outraged about something.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 06, 2020, 08:17:38 PM
I can't imagine Zoupa not arguing with the police. :lol:  And yeah, we are taught from a young age to always treat police with respect and always follow their orders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2020, 08:19:15 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys My ex-firlfriend seemed to be fundamentally scared of your her cops.

Fixed that for you.  Not even the most blindly Americanophobic of Americanophobes can believe that an anecdote about one incident involving one American povides meaningful evidence about 330 million Americans across all of time and space.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 06, 2020, 08:30:11 PM
I went downtown this morning to see what it looked like after a week of protesting and "riots". It was painful. A lot of broken windows boarded up, tons of graffiti, fencing, concrete barriers, etc.

Zoupa, if you had seen some of the graffiti, you wouldn't believe that Americans are afraid of the police. Personally, I cringed at the language used. It was awful. :( Not cursing, but calling for the deaths of police officers. That ... yeah.... not my pain so I'm trying not to judge, but I'm not one to call for the deaths of anyone. Especially not folks trying to do a job with minimal training and shitty management.

My point is that there are a lot of people not afraid of the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:45:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Either because they're fascist pigs compensating for their small dicks or because it was a volatile situation with tempers running high and friends and supporters gathering around.   Can't tell from the video.

I don't know why they towed her car.

Still don't see any force, disproportionate or otherwise, still think kicking a cop in the shin is wrong and illegal.

Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys seem to be fundamentally scared of your cops.

You just a tough guy aren't you Karen... :rolleyes:

:mellow: I wasn't shouting at them. I was cracking jokes and just talking.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 06, 2020, 08:30:11 PM
I went downtown this morning to see what it looked like after a week of protesting and "riots". It was painful. A lot of broken windows boarded up, tons of graffiti, fencing, concrete barriers, etc.

Zoupa, if you had seen some of the graffiti, you wouldn't believe that Americans are afraid of the police. Personally, I cringed at the language used. It was awful. :( Not cursing, but calling for the deaths of police officers. That ... yeah.... not my pain so I'm trying not to judge, but I'm not one to call for the deaths of anyone. Especially not folks trying to do a job with minimal training and shitty management.

My point is that there are a lot of people not afraid of the police.

What if they're pulled over on a deserted road at 1am? Would they be afraid then? Genuine question.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 08:48:08 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:45:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Either because they're fascist pigs compensating for their small dicks or because it was a volatile situation with tempers running high and friends and supporters gathering around.   Can't tell from the video.

I don't know why they towed her car.

Still don't see any force, disproportionate or otherwise, still think kicking a cop in the shin is wrong and illegal.

Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys seem to be fundamentally scared of your cops.

You just a tough guy aren't you Karen... :rolleyes:

:mellow: I wasn't shouting at them. I was cracking jokes and just talking.

Cool.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 06, 2020, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 06, 2020, 08:30:11 PM
I went downtown this morning to see what it looked like after a week of protesting and "riots". It was painful. A lot of broken windows boarded up, tons of graffiti, fencing, concrete barriers, etc.

Zoupa, if you had seen some of the graffiti, you wouldn't believe that Americans are afraid of the police. Personally, I cringed at the language used. It was awful. :( Not cursing, but calling for the deaths of police officers. That ... yeah.... not my pain so I'm trying not to judge, but I'm not one to call for the deaths of anyone. Especially not folks trying to do a job with minimal training and shitty management.

My point is that there are a lot of people not afraid of the police.

What if they're pulled over on a deserted road at 1am? Would they be afraid then? Genuine question.

I don't know. I don't know them. If they're black, at a guess, they would be afraid.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
It isn't that you should kick cops and not get in trouble but the reaction here seems a bit disproportionate. Besides how is taking somebody's property not a violation of the 5th Amendment to the Constitution? Isn't there supposed to be a trial before penalties are applied?

Cops have been going crazy with confiscations for years. It's not news.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2020, 10:02:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
It isn't that you should kick cops and not get in trouble but the reaction here seems a bit disproportionate. Besides how is taking somebody's property not a violation of the 5th Amendment to the Constitution? Isn't there supposed to be a trial before penalties are applied?

Cops have been going crazy with confiscations for years. It's not news.

It's local jurisdictions and courts that were going crazy with confiscations for years, not the police (who lack that power). It's not news.

The USSC has also struck down almost all civil forfeiture.  That's not news.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 10:06:59 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:47:20 PM
What if they're pulled over on a deserted road at 1am? Would they be afraid then? Genuine question.

I mean if I am pulled over anywhere at any time I am a little nervous yeah. I don't know what kind of cop I got on my hands. I am certainly going to keep my hands on the wheel be very polite and inform the police officer exactly what I am going to do before I do it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/6pVrEV4

Another example of what I was saying earlier. The guy got arrested for looking at a cop wrong.  :lol:

I mean wtf America.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 06, 2020, 10:48:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 06, 2020, 12:10:52 PM
I think there also has to be some acceptance that some of these things will trade lives for other goals.  I'm sure that if every cop drives around in full combat gear in armored vehicles, less of them will be killed in the line of duty than without those things, but cops coming home is not the one and only goal of policing.

Then you are ignorant of their/our general mindset. That is exactly what is in the forefront of their/our minds. It is drilled into their/our heads at the academies, training, even daily.

Not meaning to be snippy, just stating facts, however misguided or misinterpreted that mindset is.
No, I am exactly aware of that mindset, which is why I said what I said.  That mindset is wrong and should not exist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2020, 10:58:48 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/6pVrEV4

Another example of what I was saying earlier. The guy got arrested for looking at a cop wrong.  :lol:

I mean wtf America.

Eh, he got arrested for calling the cop a retard. Not that that's ok, but it is more provocative than looking at him funny.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 11:38:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 06, 2020, 10:02:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2020, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 06, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
It isn't that you should kick cops and not get in trouble but the reaction here seems a bit disproportionate. Besides how is taking somebody's property not a violation of the 5th Amendment to the Constitution? Isn't there supposed to be a trial before penalties are applied?

Cops have been going crazy with confiscations for years. It's not news.

It's local jurisdictions and courts that were going crazy with confiscations for years, not the police (who lack that power). It's not news.

The USSC has also struck down almost all civil forfeiture.  That's not news.
Has there been another ruling since this one?
https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/supreme-court-didnt-put-nail-civil-asset-forfeitures
Quote
The Supreme Court Didn't Put the Nail in Civil Asset Forfeiture's Coffin

By Emma Andersson, Senior Staff Attorney, Criminal Law Reform Project
MARCH 15, 2019 | 4:45 PM

The 84 percent of Americans who oppose civil asset forfeiture can be forgiven for having the impression that the U.S. Supreme Court ended abusive use of this practice last month in Timbs v. Indiana when it ruled that the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment applies to the states. Some media hailed it as a huge victory.  But the celebration is premature.

So what really happened?

The Timbs opinion recognizes that the Constitution guarantees freedom from excessive monetary sanctions as a fundamental right. But crucial questions remain about what practical difference the Supreme Court's decision will make in ordinary people's lives, particularly in the context of civil asset forfeiture.

The question of whether the Excessive Fines Clause should apply to the states wasn't a difficult one to answer. Indeed, at the oral argument, Justice Gorsuch made fun of Indiana's Solicitor General, saying: "I mean, most ... of the incorporation cases took place in like the 1940s." Yet, he noted, that we're "still litigating incorporation of the Bill of Rights. Really?"

The oft-divided court was able to rule unanimously in favor of the plaintiff, Tyson Timbs, partly because the narrow issue of whether the clause is "incorporated" and therefore binding on the states was the only question before it. So while the court said that the Excessive Fines Clause applies to Timbs' civil asset forfeiture case, it didn't say that Timbs' forfeiture case violates the Excessive Fines Clause.

That means the case isn't over. Instead, it will return to the Indiana Supreme Court. That court will decide whether the forfeiture of Timbs' car violates the Eighth Amendment. And how will the Indiana court decide, and how will the rest of us know, if a forfeiture case violates the Eighth Amendment?

As we noted in our amicus brief, the historical roots of the Excessive Fines Clause indicate that courts need to consider an individual's financial circumstances in order to evaluate whether a fine or forfeiture is excessive. But the Supreme Court has never squarely answered this crucial question, and it didn't reach it in Timbs. So far, the court has only held that a criminal asset forfeiture violates the Excessive Fines Clause when it is "grossly disproportional to the gravity of the defendant's offense."

This "grossly disproportional" standard is a start. But, as the almost entirely unchecked growth of civil asset forfeiture has shown over the last 30 years, it is too vague, too general, and too varied in application to provide a meaningful limit on asset forfeitures. The court has similarly referenced a "grossly disproportionate" standard when evaluating whether a criminal sentence violates the Eighth Amendment's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishments.

Protections under the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause have been minimal in practice. Punishments struck down as grossly disproportionate are basically the equivalent of legal unicorns. Indeed, the Supreme Court has affirmed life sentences for shoplifting.

During the oral argument in Timbs, Justice Kagan addressed this concern directly, noting, "we've made it awfully, awfully hard to assert a disproportionality claim with respect even to imprisonment" and if the same standard applies under the Excessive Fines Clause, "we could incorporate this tomorrow and it would have no effect on anybody."

The Timbs opinion hints that its immediate, practical impact may be limited. The Supreme Court explains that, "all 50 States have a constitutional provision prohibiting the imposition of excessive fines either directly or by requiring proportionality." That means even before Timbs it was clear that property owners could argue that a civil forfeiture violated their state constitutional right against excessive fines.

But these state constitutional provisions have not historically served as a bulwark against the proliferation of civil asset forfeiture. One reason is that state supreme courts often follow the lead of the U.S. Supreme Court and interpret their state constitutions as providing the same level of protection that the U.S. Constitution provides. 

When it comes to current U.S. Supreme Court case law interpreting the Eighth Amendment, that protection isn't much.

Notwithstanding this cause for skepticism, Timbs is a 9-0 decision in favor of someone convicted of a drug crime and whose car was seized and forfeited as a result. Victories like this at the Supreme Court are rare and worthy of attention, even where their legal holding is relatively limited. Timbs can be a starting point for the work needed to establish a meaningful right to be free from excessive monetary penalties. We should treat the decision as an invitation to litigate these claims more often and push courts to make the Excessive Fines Clause a more robust protection against government overreach.

But even if we succeed at that, significant structural barriers would still stand in the way of a strong Eighth Amendment restraining civil asset forfeiture.

The biggest barrier to the Excessive Fines Clause restraining civil asset forfeiture is that owners who want their property back are not entitled to a court-appointed lawyer because the proceedings are deemed civil, not criminal. This means most people go unrepresented because it is economically irrational to hire a lawyer in cases when the value of the property taken is less than the cost of hiring a lawyer. And, as we showed in our complaint in Cox v. Voyles, when people try to represent themselves, they're fighting against government lawyers who are expert in these systems, expert in dirty tricks, and therefore expert in defeating even meritorious claims on procedural grounds.

More insidiously, as Cox also demonstrated, some people are justifiably afraid to fight their cases with or without a lawyer. For example, though the state law at issue in Cox has now changed as a result of our litigation, the law at the time allowed the government to recover its own attorneys' fees from people who fought to regain their seized property and lost. But if they won, the state didn't have to pay for the property owners' attorneys' fees. This meant that whatever the outcome of the case, many property owners would lose money if they dared to fight for their rights in court.

Or consider that police in Tenaha, Texas, spent years seizing property from Black and Latinx people traveling through town, threatening the travelers that if they did not turn over their cash and disclaim their rights to it, they would be arrested on money laundering charges and, in some instances, have their children taken by child protective services.

All of this means that Timbs — bolstered by a robust Excessive Fines Clause we have yet to establish — could only restrain civil asset forfeiture, case by case, if property owners fight back in court. So long as these barriers to fighting civil forfeiture cases exist, a back-end solution is simply not enough.

There is potential, though, for a solution before the asset seizure takes place.

One of the most pernicious parts of many civil asset forfeiture laws is the profit motive baked into them. In too many states, police and prosecutors get to keep a lot of the money that they bring in through forfeiture. This creates a perverse incentive for law enforcement to make decisions that maximize their profits instead of maximizing public safety. In other words, policing for profit. This self-interest, in our view, violates the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment and therefore renders such arrangements susceptible to wholesale invalidation.

Getting civil forfeiture laws struck down on this basis and preventing people from unjustly losing their property in the first place would be a major step towards eliminating or seriously curtailing the abusive use of civil asset forfeiture. In Marshall v. Jerrico, the U.S. Supreme Court recognized that procedural due process imposes a limit on "scheme(s) injecting a personal interest, financial or otherwise, into the [law] enforcement process."

The court stated that such schemes in some contexts "raise serious constitutional questions." The court identified three factors to consider when someone alleges that a law enforcement official's financial interest in enforcement violates the Constitution. First, whether the official stands to profit economically from vigorous enforcement. Second, whether the enforcing agent is financially dependent on the maintenance of a high level of penalties. And third, whether the law enforcement agency's budget is so dependent upon this source of income that officials have a direct financial incentive to increase enforcement efforts. Many civil asset forfeiture laws suffer from all three defects and are therefore constitutionally suspect, as we successfully argued in Cox.

So, while Timbs is far from a fatal blow to this outrageous practice, it can serve as a jumping off point for our much broader efforts to eliminate civil asset forfeiture.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2020, 11:56:56 PM
Is there a reason you crossed out the last couple paragraphs?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 07, 2020, 02:24:05 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Why did 7 cars and 20 officers show up and why tow her car?

Either because they're fascist pigs compensating for their small dicks or because it was a volatile situation with tempers running high and friends and supporters gathering around.   Can't tell from the video.

I don't know why they towed her car.

Still don't see any force, disproportionate or otherwise, still think kicking a cop in the shin is wrong and illegal.

Let's get past the video and go towards the larger issue of policing in the US then.

I remember when I was dating this girl from California. I used to visit every few weeks. Got pulled over once by the cops and she could not believe how I was talking to them. I didn't understand what she meant but we talked for hours about it afterwards. Her main point was you do as they say and you don't talk back. She was also super nervous when I was arguing with the border patrol guys.

You guys seem to be fundamentally scared of your cops.

That reminds me of what used to happen on my yearly solo drives from NYC up to Quebec for a long weekend in Montreal.

How, I always set it up that when I left work, I'd drive only as far as about Plattsburgh. I'd spend a night in the hotel there so as to limit any concern the Canadian border agents might have if I was crossing at 1am.

And yet, inevitably, I always was asked to pull over for additional questioning. First time was the rockiest. Tthey went through every piece of paper, every object they could find in my car and even tried to puncture holes in what I'd told them about coming up for a weekend vacation from New York after they found printed directions to NJ from early in summer.

From then on, I made sure my car was spic and span when crossing the border but it still made little difference. Still had to go inside for questioning.

I was so used to that pullover process that the one time I took a female friend with me and they told us we were free to go (with no additional screening), I didn't even know where to go. -_-

And uou can be damn sure that I was polite as fuck during all questioning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 07, 2020, 02:25:57 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2020, 11:56:56 PM
Is there a reason you crossed out the last couple paragraphs?

That mention of 'scheme' had and an 's' in [] so then board picked that up as formatting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 07, 2020, 03:10:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 07, 2020, 02:25:57 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2020, 11:56:56 PM
Is there a reason you crossed out the last couple paragraphs?

That mention of 'scheme' had and an 's' in [] so then board picked that up as formatting.
Correct. Changed that to parentheses
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 07:23:44 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2020, 10:58:48 PM
Eh, he got arrested for calling the cop a retard. Not that that's ok, but it is more provocative than looking at him funny.

You cannot know what he was arrested for.  All we can say for sure is that the cop committed assault, compared to which name-calling and funny-looking is trivial.  The cop should have been arrested.  Any civilian doing that to a cop would be murdered.

This cop is the poster child for the kind of cop that needs to be fired and banned from any position of authority.  He is a bully because his badge allows him to be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 09:37:00 AM
Statue of Edward Colston brought down in Bristol:
https://twitter.com/itvwestcountry/status/1269631972822921217?s=20

From a fairly local perspective this seems really good because Bristol is, in my experience, the least aware of its slaving past of the slave cities in the UK (Liverpool and Glasgow). And Colston is everywhere in Briston: two Colston schools, Colston Tower, Colston Avenue, the big music/cultural venue is Colston Hall, there's even a Colston bun. I think a couple of years ago there was a proposal to change the statue so the plaque actually mentioned that he was a slaver - but I don't think it got anywhere.

As I say I always feel like Bristol has least confronted its past compared to Liverpool and Glasgow, so good to see it happen.

Edit: And he's in the river:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ6v_OoWoAE_nNt?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2020, 11:29:05 AM
I see the police continues to solve the issue of dealing with a gathering larger than 6 people by not showing up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2020, 01:47:41 PM
There's some altercation going on between protesters and police in Central London.  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 01:50:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 07, 2020, 01:47:41 PM
There's some altercation going on between protesters and police in Central London.  :huh:


No way.... :lmfao:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 01:53:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 07:23:44 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2020, 10:58:48 PM
Eh, he got arrested for calling the cop a retard. Not that that's ok, but it is more provocative than looking at him funny.

You cannot know what he was arrested for.  All we can say for sure is that the cop committed assault, compared to which name-calling and funny-looking is trivial.  The cop should have been arrested.  Any civilian doing that to a cop would be murdered.

This cop is the poster child for the kind of cop that needs to be fired and banned from any position of authority.  He is a bully because his badge allows him to be.

The link had a link to a news piece with more deets:

https://nbcpalmsprings.com/2018/07/12/desert-hot-springs-officer-out-of-job-following-viral-confrontation/

A tidbit extracted from that article is the reference to something known as the "Peace Officer's Bill of Rights" or "Law Enforcement Officers BoR"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers%27_Bill_of_Rights
https://www.cato.org/blog/police-misconduct-law-enforcement-officers-bill-rights

I've still got some more reading to do on it...but the highlights sound like pretty bad practice.

Being as it was never stated that the aforementioned officer was fired, just "no longer employed", makes me suspect something I've seen before...

With the myriad of police agencies we have, it seems sometimes a "bad" officer will just quit their force before any discipline reaches an official/documented stage, and then go apply to work at another agency with their record still clean.  This is helped in that many local agencies love what are called "lateral" hires, that being the hiring of an already experienced officer from outside, as it makes for a great savings to them in training costs.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 07, 2020, 02:50:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 09:37:00 AM
Statue of Edward Colston brought down in Bristol:

it's no better than the taleban shooting the Buddhas. As for that group those Buddhas represented something vile. Or early Christians chisseling away the faces of the old gods on Egyptian monuments.

Yes he was a slaver, but slavery was hardly exceptional.
Explain and clarify history, don't whitewash it.

and that's all I'm going to say on this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 07, 2020, 02:56:13 PM
No no, please tell us more  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 03:05:31 PM
People should be judged by the standards of their time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:32:15 PM
We don't have statues of everyone in history. We don't have statues of Nazis, Ukrainians tore down statues of Lenin a few years ago, nations also tend not to have statues of their enemies - there's no statue of Napoleon in London. I am sure there were statues of Cromwell in Ireland, there aren't anymore. Others become controversial - I know there's a campaign against the statues of Roca over his role in the Conquest of the Desert which is now widely seen as a genocide. Statues are people who we are choosing to honour - they are not necessary to history.

In terms of cultural expression you could be right - but there's a link here. In the same way as most of those statues of Confederates were put up after the civil war, so was Colston. The statues of Confederates were largely erected in the early 20th century at the peak of Jim Crow and were arguably the sort of reconciliation measure between North and South - by and for white Americans. It's interesting to think in other post-conflict societies how we reconcile sides in a way that may leave others out - in this case African-Americans.

With Colston that statue went up in the 1890s so about 200 years after his death. By that time the British people were very anti-slavery but could separate that part of his legacy from the "good" (I'd also just note there is a class element here too - the working class were always more anti-slavery and I think there's something in allowing a legacy for a slaver), I think that's questionable because his good legacy was philanthropy and building up the city both of which were built on the profits from slavery. But it was also a moment of extreme anxiety, pessimism and fear about British imperial power, which is arguably why they reach back two hundred years to honour this man. There's something appropriate about the fact the statue went up and was pulled down becahse of the end of Empire. So maybe he was hardly exceptional, but he was who Bristol chose to commemorate a couple of hundred years after his death which makes him more exceptionally.

Now personally I would like this to be more purposive. I would like us as a society to confront our past and decide how we represent it and learn about it - I think Germany is the model for us. My view is, as the Irish saying goes, the British never remember so personally I would prefer new plaques explaining people like Colston and Napier and Clive, other statues near them dedicated to their victims. Things to make you look around as you stand in Trafalgar Square or central Bristol and realise that the wealth that built this was very often extracted from colonies and built on slavery (when slavery was abolished our state paid slave owners £20million, which is, in today's money, £17billion).

But those ideas have been circulating for a long time and we've not made the change. The statue of Colston has been controversial for decades (as have all of the other things named for him in Bristol) but we haven't done any of them. Now this. I hope this will at least push us into making decisions that we actually choose in who and how we honour and how we live with our past.

And I don't think this is just a British thing - I think it's utterly shameful that there are still statues of Leopold II in Europe's capital for example.

Incidentally in terms of who we should honour I find it extraordinary that we don't have any statues of Frederick Douglass whose freedom was purchased partly by a subscription of the working men of Newcastle, who toured the UK and Ireland extensively to give speeches and who gave 16 alone in Newcastle - there are a few plaques. I think that's part of a choice by Victorian Britain to valorise and honour elite abolitionists like Wilberforce and the slave-traders who made money and built empire not the working class proto-unions in the 18th and early 19th century who always campaigned for abolition from the very beginning (and who were opposed by Wilberforce etc).

Edit: A very good piece on Colston and Bristol from the FT a couple of years back - again some of the stories here just strike me as slightly impossible in Glasgow or Liverpool:
https://www.ft.com/content/032fe4a0-9a96-11e8-ab77-f854c65a4465
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:45:11 PM
So in short, the mob took it upon themselves to destroy property of the state.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:45:11 PM
So in short, the mob took it upon themselves to destroy property of the state.
Yeah. Alternately the public took it upon themselves to destroy a statue in the public's space. Our streets are ours, not the "state's".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:45:11 PM
So in short, the mob took it upon themselves to destroy property of the state.
Yeah. Alternately the public took it upon themselves to destroy a statue in the public's space. Our streets are ours, not the "state's".

Mob mentality
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2020, 04:01:34 PM
Yeah sounds like this statue should had been removed already, but if the measure of acceptable vandalism is to have enough people disagree with a structure/piece of art to make them physically able to destroy it, we won't have many things left standing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 04:15:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:45:11 PM
So in short, the mob took it upon themselves to destroy property of the state.
Yeah. Alternately the public took it upon themselves to destroy a statue in the public's space. Our streets are ours, not the "state's".

In a democracy, the mob doesn't represent the people, the elected government does.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 07, 2020, 04:17:45 PM
How else can I learn about Bristol's role in the slave trade now?!?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 04:24:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 04:15:25 PMIn a democracy, the mob doesn't represent the people, the elected government does.
Sure - I would like this to have happened in a different way but I'm glad it's been done.

But as I say there's been a campaign around this for decades in Bristol. The council did decide to have a new plaque erected. As part of this they consulted with the stakeholders, which was mainly the Merchant Venturers (the Mayor at the time was a Merchant Venturer) and came up with this:
QuoteEdward Colston (1636–1721), MP for Bristol (1710–1713), was one of this city's greatest benefactors. He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. Many of his charitable foundations continue. This statue was erected in 1895 to commemorate his philanthropy. A significant proportion of Colston's wealth came from investments in slave trading, sugar and other slave-produced goods. As an official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, he was also involved in the transportation of approximately 84,000 enslaved African men, women and young children, of whom 19,000 died on voyages from West Africa to the Caribbean and the Americas.

Which is a little weak in my opinion.

And the Merchant Venturers was a livery company that lobbied for more liberalised rules around the slave trade in Colston's lifetime (ie they wanted to break his monopoly through the Royal African Company). They still exist and are an invite-only group of the City's prominent businessmen. In the last two years they've invited their first ethnic minority member. They until the last few years organised trips to Merchant's Hall for school children where kids would be shown some of Colston's hair and fingernails. Similarly in recent years they were still organising an annual commemorative service for Colston in the Cathedral (under the stained glass window depicting him) where, again, school kids would carry chrysanthamums (his favourite flower) and hear a sermon on his life - in 2016 it was on the theme of his family motto "Go, and do thou likewise". He's seen by them as the sort-of father of the city.

I'd prefer this to have been done in a civic way and maybe that would have happened if a wider group of stakeholders were consulted.

Edit: For example there has long been a campaign in Bristol to remove the statue and put it in a museum - which never got anywhere. And Bristol, unlike Glasgow or Liverpool, doesn't to my knowledge have a museum or even part of a museum dedicated to slavery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 04:26:12 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 07, 2020, 04:17:45 PM
How else can I learn about Bristol's role in the slave trade now?!?
Not at Bristol University. This is one of the reasons I think Bristol is in a worse place than Glasgow or Liverpool - both of those universities have incredible research centres into slavery (from what I understand). Bristol has appointed its first professor of slavery in 2019.

If you want to learn about Bristol's role you'd be better off going to the University of the West of England (in Bristol), the old polytechnic with all the snobbishness that invites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2020, 04:35:33 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:32:15 PM
Ukrainians tore down statues of Lenin a few years ago,

Ah, but not all of them (even in unoccupied Ukraine). One town got to keep theirs. :)

(https://i.ibb.co/r2qnSZ3/Lenin.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 07, 2020, 04:35:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 04:26:12 PM
If you want to learn about Bristol's role you'd be better off going to the University of the West of England (in Bristol), the old polytechnic with all the snobbishness that invites.

I know - it's just my snarky retort to the whole non-argument that statues is primarily how we learn about history.

The Bristol slave trade is actually quite well-documented. About half a million slaves were carried on about 2,500 individual voyages departing from Bristol during the length of the slave trade. That's about 23% of all British slaving expeditions (and about 17% of all enslaved people traded by British ships).

By contrast, Glasgow's place in the actual slave trade was minuscule: a dozen of expedition or thereabouts. Glasgow's role was much more linked to plantation slavery in general - i.e., by its importance as a center for the Chesapeake tobacco trade.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 04:44:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2020, 04:35:33 PM
Ah, but not all of them (even in unoccupied Ukraine). One town got to keep theirs. :)
And, which I only found out today, weirdly, Manchester took one of the Ukrainian statues of Engels (you can see the yellow and blue paint):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ6llBUX0AAMRmT?format=jpg&name=small)

QuoteI know - it's just my snarky retort to the whole non-argument that statues is primarily how we learn about history.
Yeah - I understand and agree - just want to flag again the unique failure of Bristol's elite institutions to do anything to begin to comprehend its past.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:45:11 PM
So in short, the mob took it upon themselves to destroy property of the state.
Yeah. Alternately the public took it upon themselves to destroy a statue in the public's space. Our streets are ours, not the "state's".

Mob mentality

Is there no situation in which you'd find "mob mentality" appropriate? Honest question.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 04:50:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 03:45:11 PM
So in short, the mob took it upon themselves to destroy property of the state.
Yeah. Alternately the public took it upon themselves to destroy a statue in the public's space. Our streets are ours, not the "state's".

Mob mentality

Is there no situation in which you'd find "mob mentality" appropriate? Honest question.

Nope. Does the ends justify the means?

Most and likely the crowd got out of control because of a few "Bad Apples".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
After posting a picture of his dad on civil rights marches, here's Mitt Romney joining the 1,000 Christians for BLM today:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ8GqTgWkAEIk_v?format=jpg&name=large)

This is a sign of the success of these protests. If you'd said on 1 January that by the end of the year Mitt Romney would have joined a BLM protest I think you would have been laughed out the room.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 05:11:47 PM
I'm glad they're all wearing masks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2020, 05:17:58 PM
Is that a guy in a Mitt Romney mask?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 05:19:15 PM
I'm wondering what property, whether it belonged to The State or to the people, was destroyed in Bristol.  I saw only pictures of an intact statue being carefully lowered into the river.  That's a far cry from a mob attacking a statue with sledgehammers.  Before, you have a list of the property of the State that was actually destroyed?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 05:19:15 PM
I'm wondering what property, whether it belonged to The State or to the people, was destroyed in Bristol.  I saw only pictures of an intact statue being carefully lowered into the river.  That's a far cry from a mob attacking a statue with sledgehammers.  Before, you have a list of the property of the State that was actually destroyed?

Fuck, just read. You been under a rock.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/7/21283003/protesters-tore-down-confederate-statue-virginia-monuments-alabama-new-orleans

More like it just google.

Do I think these monuments and all forms of the confederate flag be removed and thrown on the ash heap of history, you bet. Doing it under mob rules, nope.

I don't buy redneck folks I know who say, "Oh it's history this or that."  Fuck that, read a book, you can read can't you.

Hell the mayor of one city ordered them to be taken down. That's a far better and more satisfying win IMO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2020, 06:16:41 PM
QuoteMinneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis city council has announced its intent to dismantle the city's police department and invest in community-led public safety, a move that would mark the first concrete victory in the mounting nationwide movement to defund law enforcement agencies in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.

Nine of the council's 12 members announced their pledge to create a new system of public safety before hundreds of demonstrators at a rally at Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis on Sunday afternoon.

"This council is going to dismantle this police department," councilman Jeremiah Ellison said.

Added city council president Lisa Bender: "We're here because we hear you. We are here today because George Floyd was killed by the Minneapolis police. We are here because here in Minneapolis and in cities across the United States it is clear that our existing system of policing and public safety is not keeping our communities safe.

"Our efforts at incremental reform have failed. Period."

On Friday, the council approved an agreement to ban the use of police chokeholds and neck restraints in response to the killing of Floyd with the state's department of human rights, which also requires officers to intervene anytime they seen an unauthorized use of force.

When pressed by CNN for details on what a city with a defunded police department might look like, Bender told the network that funding would be shifted to other needs.

"The idea of having no police department is certainly not in the short term," Bender said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:19:06 PM
Good luck with that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:23:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 05:19:15 PM
I'm wondering what property, whether it belonged to The State or to the people, was destroyed in Bristol.  I saw only pictures of an intact statue being carefully lowered into the river.  That's a far cry from a mob attacking a statue with sledgehammers.  Before, you have a list of the property of the State that was actually destroyed?

Fuck, just read. You been under a rock.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/7/21283003/protesters-tore-down-confederate-statue-virginia-monuments-alabama-new-orleans

More like it just google.

Do I think these monuments and all forms of the confederate flag be removed and thrown on the ash heap of history, you bet. Doing it under mob rules, nope.

I don't buy redneck folks I know who say, "Oh it's history this or that."  Fuck that, read a book, you can read can't you.

Hell the mayor of one city ordered them to be taken down. That's a far better and more satisfying win IMO.

Fuck dude, just read!  I asked what destruction occurred in Bristol (the subject of the discussion), and you refer to some people taking Lee off his pedestal in Montgomery Alabama!  Reading is fundamental.  If I'm using any words you don't understand, just ask.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:23:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 05:19:15 PM
I'm wondering what property, whether it belonged to The State or to the people, was destroyed in Bristol.  I saw only pictures of an intact statue being carefully lowered into the river.  That's a far cry from a mob attacking a statue with sledgehammers.  Before, you have a list of the property of the State that was actually destroyed?

Fuck, just read. You been under a rock.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/7/21283003/protesters-tore-down-confederate-statue-virginia-monuments-alabama-new-orleans

More like it just google.

Do I think these monuments and all forms of the confederate flag be removed and thrown on the ash heap of history, you bet. Doing it under mob rules, nope.

I don't buy redneck folks I know who say, "Oh it's history this or that."  Fuck that, read a book, you can read can't you.

Hell the mayor of one city ordered them to be taken down. That's a far better and more satisfying win IMO.

Fuck dude, just read!  I asked what destruction occurred in Bristol (the subject of the discussion), and you refer to some people taking Lee off his pedestal in Montgomery Alabama!  Reading is fundamental.  If I'm using any words you don't understand, just ask.
You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 06:31:09 PM
I'm curious how these replacement programs work and whether they will be effective at preventing crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 06:34:38 PM
Also the reason I emphasised public space rather than property of the state is I genuinely don't know the status of statues. They definitely need permission from the state, but certainly in the UK a lot of them are privately funded - so this one was funded by the Merchant Venturers and other local groups of the great and good. I don't know how ownership of them works.

It's also why, I imagine, when they looked at how to change the plaque the main stakeholders involved were Merchant Venturers who fundraised for them - while this is a public space so there are different interests.

There's definitely some state statuary, but a lot of it is by subscription - especially in the 19th century. I imagine it's similar in the US, how many were put up by cities and how many by Daughters of the Confederacy. So there is a debate over how the state allows public space to be used rather than the state's property itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:27:24 PM

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   :lol:

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:39:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 06:34:38 PM
Also the reason I emphasised public space rather than property of the state is I genuinely don't know the status of statues. They definitely need permission from the state, but certainly in the UK a lot of them are privately funded - so this one was funded by the Merchant Venturers and other local groups of the great and good. I don't know how ownership of them works.

It's also why, I imagine, when they looked at how to change the plaque the main stakeholders involved were Merchant Venturers who fundraised for them - while this is a public space so there are different interests.

There's definitely some state statuary, but a lot of it is by subscription - especially in the 19th century. I imagine it's similar in the US, how many were put up by cities and how many by Daughters of the Confederacy. So there is a debate over how the state allows public space to be used rather than the state's property itself.

Point taken. So, if it's public space than anyone can do whatever.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 06:31:09 PM
I'm curious how these replacement programs work and whether they will be effective at preventing crime.

Yeah, the necessary reduction of cop violent crime has to be balanced with need to avoid a too-large increase in civilian violent crime.  Having you face bashed in by a civilian thug rather than a police thug doesn't reduce the number of stitches required.

On the other hand, not deliberately making an enemy of the people you are policing should make solving some crimes easier.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:59:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:27:24 PM

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   :lol:

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.

Yep they gently pulled it down... :lmfao:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLiddell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1269628569677856770&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F07%2Fworld%2Fglobal-floyd-protests-weekend-intl%2Findex.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 07:07:15 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:59:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:27:24 PM

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   :lol:

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.

Yep they gently pulled it down... :lmfao:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLiddell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1269628569677856770&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F07%2Fworld%2Fglobal-floyd-protests-weekend-intl%2Findex.html

:lmfao:  Like a statue can tell gentle pulling from normal pulling.  If your big complaint is that statues aren't being torn down gently enough, you don't have much to complain about.

Whether they were gentle or not, they weren't in Bristol.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 07:07:15 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:59:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 06:27:24 PM

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   :lol:

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.

Yep they gently pulled it down... :lmfao:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLiddell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1269628569677856770&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F07%2Fworld%2Fglobal-floyd-protests-weekend-intl%2Findex.html

:lmfao:  Like a statue can tell gentle pulling from normal pulling.  If your big complaint is that statues aren't being torn down gently enough, you don't have much to complain about.

Whether they were gentle or not, they weren't in Bristol.

Nice dodge.

Issue is they are being torn down by a mob. Mob rules.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 07:40:10 PM
So I find this interesting - historically it was a real struggle to raise the money for the Colston statue (£1,000). Very few people seem to have been keen on donating.

Also, as mentioned, the Council had proposed this wording for a second plaque - it was produced with input from various groups, including children from schools named after Colston, but rejected by the Merchant Venturers (who I think "own" the statue) as too tough on Colston:
QuoteAs a high official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, Edward Colston played an active role in the enslavement of over 84,000 Africans (including 12,000 children) of whom over 19,000 died en route to the Caribbean and America. Colston also invested in the Spanish slave trade and slave-produced sugar. As Tory MP for Bristol (1710-1713), he defended the city's 'right' to trade in enslaved Africans. Bristolians who did not subscribe to his religious and political beliefs were not allowed to benefit from his charities.

The Merchant Venturers' proposal for a second plaque, which was rejected by the Mayor as too exculpatory:
QuoteEdward Colston, 1636-1721, MP for Bristol 1710-1713, was one of the city's greatest benefactors.

He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. Many of his charitable foundations continue. This statue was erected in 1895 to commemorate his philanthropy.

A significant proportion of Colston's wealth came from investments in slave trading, sugar and other slave-produced goods.

As an official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, he was also invlved in the transportation of approximately 84,000 enslaved African men, women and young children, of whom 19,000 died on voyages from West Africa to the CAribbean and the Americas.

So part of the issue with this statue has exactly been that the democratic system - which regulates the public space - could not agree with the "owners" of the statue over the way to contextualise this statue. I'm unsure how long the Merchant Venturers' etc should hold a veto over this use of the public space - and I'm not sure how much worse they are than the mob given that there was no second plaque and it feels like they were trying to just stop one going up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 07, 2020, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 07, 2020, 06:16:41 PM
QuoteMinneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis city council has announced its intent to dismantle the city's police department and invest in community-led public safety, a move that would mark the first concrete victory in the mounting nationwide movement to defund law enforcement agencies in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.

Nine of the council's 12 members announced their pledge to create a new system of public safety before hundreds of demonstrators at a rally at Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis on Sunday afternoon.



That's impressive. Change is happening fast
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 07, 2020, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 07, 2020, 06:16:41 PM
QuoteMinneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis city council has announced its intent to dismantle the city's police department and invest in community-led public safety, a move that would mark the first concrete victory in the mounting nationwide movement to defund law enforcement agencies in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.

Nine of the council's 12 members announced their pledge to create a new system of public safety before hundreds of demonstrators at a rally at Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis on Sunday afternoon.



That's impressive. Change is happening fast

It hasn't happened yet. These are still politicians you know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 08:34:33 PM
11B4V, you clearly have an issue with how this has/is playing out. But you've not really offered anything to counter its productivity. Change is happening now. We don't know what it will look like or how it will play out, but there is no question that the protesters are being heard.

I'll point out that taking a knee was condemned, rallies for #BlackLivesMatter were condemned. Trying to take police to court was condemned. And nothing changed. Four cops killed a black man in broad daylight, knowing they were being videotaped doing it. Police are right now attacking peaceful protesters (as well as rioters) knowing that they are being videotaped.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized. Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead? How would you like to see change made?

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 08:39:26 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 08:34:33 PM
11B4V, you clearly have an issue with how this has/is playing out. But you've not really offered anything to counter its productivity. Change is happening now. We don't know what it will look like or how it will play out, but there is no question that the protesters are being heard.

I'll point out that taking a knee was condemned, rallies for #BlackLivesMatter were condemned. Trying to take police to court was condemned. And nothing changed. Four cops killed a black man in broad daylight, knowing they were being videotaped doing it. Police are right now attacking peaceful protesters (as well as rioters) knowing that they are being videotaped.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized. Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead? How would you like to see change made?

He did post what police reforms he thinks should be implemented...it's either several pages back or another thread, not sure which.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 08:41:25 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Nice dodge.

Issue is they are being torn down by a mob. Mob rules.

Nice dodge.

That's your issue.  You were rudely responding to my question, which was about Bristol.

I am no happier about mob violence than anyone else, but I think protests, even symbolic protests that burn flags or effigies or topple statues (or even gently lower them into a river) are a different beast from mob violence.  YMMV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 08:41:45 PM
This was it...

Quote from: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:08:24 PM
1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate.

5. Etc

6. Etc
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 08:52:40 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 08:41:45 PM
This was it...

Quote from: 11B4V on June 06, 2020, 02:08:24 PM
1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate.

5. Etc

6. Etc

Thank you, Toni!

The issue, of course, is that something must force those things to happen. It's been "asked for" for years, and people have gotten nowhere.

My question is... how would 11B4V force police departments to make those changes?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 08:55:17 PM
I definitely think the entire approach of how we look at public safety is definitely something that we should address (corrections and prisons as well).  However I am skeptical of rushed, "crisis-minded" approach which we may stumble into now with blanket "defund the police" ideas. 

It reminds me of the knee-jerk reaction to 9-11, where we started calling everything terrorism and rushed out lots of questionable security measures and impairments of personal liberty (i.e. the never ending Patriot Act).

How we go about policing and law enforcement as a whole can certainly stand some new ideas...and not be bound my police "tradition" or any such legacies that, like many things, can be quickly become archaic.  It has long been argued that rank-and-file police officers are not the best first-responders to things that we tend to encounter more and more in modern society, such as those having a mental illness crisis.  Those often bring about the worst examples of police conduct...mostly because they do not seem to be trained to handle it in a measured fashion.

But even if we mostly take away the beat cop or patrol officer, I still think the "police" (or to be more precise, public detectives) have a place and role when it comes to the investigation of major crimes (murder, etc), criminal conspiracies, and organized crime.  There may be a lot of situations we currently send police officers to, that might be better handled by someone else...but there is a danger I think, that inertia will just have us shift our public disdain from the old "police officer" to some new organization of what are essentially glorified social workers, who may well end up being just as mis-allocated, ill-trained, or counter productive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 08:52:40 PM
My question is... how would 11B4V force police departments to make those changes?

That is always the big question.

I suppose we often like to think that Mayors or akin to the Commander in Chief of their city, and have total/civilian control over their own police department...but I suspect that is often not the case.  Police Chiefs, or especially elected Sheriffs seem to have much more autonomy.

And the much more cynical side of me suspects that (mostly big city) PD heads likely make sure they keep any potentially criminal dirt on their mayoral counterparts (or other top civilians) handy.  Even if nothing directly conspiratorial like that, PDs, or how effective they are, are often a Mayors indirect political lifeline. :sleep:

But that might be changing...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 09:08:16 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 07, 2020, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 08:52:40 PM
My question is... how would 11B4V force police departments to make those changes?

That is always the big question.

I suppose we often like to think that Mayors or akin to the Commander in Chief of their city, and have total/civilian control over their own police department...but I suspect that is often not the case.  Police Chiefs, or especially elected Sheriffs seem to have much more autonomy.

And the much more cynical side of me suspects that (mostly big city) PD heads likely make sure they keep any potentially criminal dirt on their mayoral counterparts (or other top civilians) handy.  Even if nothing directly conspiratorial like that, PDs, or how effective they are, are often a Mayors indirect political lifeline. :sleep:

But that might be changing...

Which makes the point that I'm asking.

How does one force those in charge to make the changes if not through civil unrest?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:01:54 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 08:34:33 PM
11B4V, you clearly have an issue with how this has/is playing out. But you've not really offered anything to counter its productivity. Change is happening now. We don't know what it will look like or how it will play out, but there is no question that the protesters are being heard.

I'll point out that taking a knee was condemned, rallies for #BlackLivesMatter were condemned. Trying to take police to court was condemned. And nothing changed. Four cops killed a black man in broad daylight, knowing they were being videotaped doing it. Police are right now attacking peaceful protesters (as well as rioters) knowing that they are being videotaped.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized. Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead? How would you like to see change made?

First to the bolded, to a degree yes.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized.
*You bet, the best weapon a cop has is that thing below his nose. Want to demilitarize the police, well demilitarize the civilians. I've already provided examples of how the police got where they are. Also they didn't arrive at it all by their lonesome. Society has had big part in it. If you think for one second that Seattle PD or any cop for that matter wanted to go quell a riot and it was a riot, in downtown Seattle your nuts. If you think they want to go stand out on a cordon line, again no. Or deal with rowdy highly agitated protesters...no. Or go to an activeshooter and it's maybe just you and another going in...again no. Or go to a DV physical in process..no. There are as  many misconceptions of cops than their are correct ones.


Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead?
*I don't agree with mob rules of looting, vandalism, etc. How many small businesses were destroyed even after they were reeling from this Covid bullshit? However, I believe now the movement generally is way more effective than it was at its start. Besides a few "Bad Apples" as the protesters are wont to say.


How would you like to see change made?
-I believe if you scroll back I listed something's but, for convenience I'll relist and even add some.

1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. nothing like showing up to a gun fight and your cops are completely out match by civilian criminals. And please don't say SWAT. That was a massive response failure in the age of active shooters. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc. THIS IS KEY. Those fuckers are responsible for keeping more bad cops in the job than any other entity.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1  What are you willing to trade or give up. How safe do you feel with a militarized civilian population? Or walking down your streets with a seriously rolled back police? I suppose everyone will be model citizens :lol:. Rolled back traffic enforcement, general patrol, no fines, etc. Also how will the cities/counties deal with that income vacum. Criminal activity will not just go away. If it's reactive policing you want, go for it.

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate. Been a fan of them since their inception.

5. What do you want LE to do and be logically and not in some utopian fantasy world? Particularly in dense urban areas. No one has stated this and don't say the usual drumming line. How are you going to get there? You'll still have organized crime, gangs, etc. Oh and let's not forget the random active shooters in work place, schools, etc. WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

6. Another thing is, officers being allowed to resign in lieu of termination. This is how the bad ones keep finding jobs in other departments. That needs to be tracked in a data base.

7. The DOJ must be apolitical and provide effective oversight and prosecution if necessary.

8. Have a President that is not a tard.


But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:02:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

I'll remember you said that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:03:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2020, 08:41:25 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 07:10:52 PM
Nice dodge.

Issue is they are being torn down by a mob. Mob rules.

Nice dodge.

That's your issue.  You were rudely responding to my question, which was about Bristol.

I am no happier about mob violence than anyone else, but I think protests, even symbolic protests that burn flags or effigies or topple statues (or even gently lower them into a river) are a different beast from mob violence.  YMMV.

Good glad we agree.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2020, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

It's a sign of people in rebellion. Otherwise they'd go through legal channels.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 07, 2020, 10:28:44 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 07, 2020, 06:16:41 PM
QuoteMinneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

Damn...well I guess the rest of us will be watching with interest how this goes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:01:54 PM

But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.

You clearly had ideas - and more experience than the rest of us - and I wanted to hear them. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Quote
WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

If you're asking what *I* want, the answer is pretty close to what you suggested with a few minor tweaks that probably aren't worth mentioning. But one thing that I think *has* to happen that you didn't bring up is alternatives to police response - or addendums to police response.

As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 07, 2020, 11:09:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:01:54 PM

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1  What are you willing to trade or give up. How safe do you feel with a militarized civilian population? Or walking down your streets with a seriously rolled back police? I suppose everyone will be model citizens :lol:. Rolled back traffic enforcement, general patrol, no fines, etc. Also how will the cities/counties deal with that income vacum. Criminal activity will not just go away. If it's reactive policing you want, go for it.

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate. Been a fan of them since their inception.

5. What do you want LE to do and be logically and not in some utopian fantasy world? Particularly in dense urban areas. No one has stated this and don't say the usual drumming line. How are you going to get there? You'll still have organized crime, gangs, etc. Oh and let's not forget the random active shooters in work place, schools, etc. WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.


Given how armed Americans are there would still need to be a fast reaction SWAT team like entity for active shooter type incidents, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be connected to the current institutions.

It can be built from the ground up. And a lot of other police responsibilities can be spun off to other entities. Health and wellness checks should be done be social workers for example. Speeding and most other traffic violations can be enforced with camera's etc. I've literally never seen someone pulled over in South Korea. The only time I've seen the police on a road is when they're at the seen of an accident.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 11:10:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:01:54 PM

But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.

You clearly had ideas - and more experience than the rest of us - and I wanted to hear them. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Quote
WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

If you're asking what *I* want, the answer is pretty close to what you suggested with a few minor tweaks that probably aren't worth mentioning. But one thing that I think *has* to happen that you didn't bring up is alternatives to police response - or addendums to police response.

As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

*As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

In Washington state it's called CIT (Crisis Intervention Training) certification that police officers can and do get. I have sent 20 or so of my officers to that certification. This certification has been in wa state for maybe a decade IIRC. And the police officers do just what you describe. It is and has been incredibly effective. Maybe wa state is ahead of the curve in this area? Don't know about the rest of the country


*Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

Yes it is and it needs to be a multi pronged approach to stamp it out. Departmentally, Politically, and Society itself etc.

However those nets you describe are a part of the systemic problem for the police in general. But they need to go away. How many use of force issues did that turd have in his record who killed Floyd? Too many and that goes to the heart of it IMO. He should have never been a cop let alone an FTO training new officers.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 11:22:54 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 07, 2020, 11:09:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:01:54 PM

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1  What are you willing to trade or give up. How safe do you feel with a militarized civilian population? Or walking down your streets with a seriously rolled back police? I suppose everyone will be model citizens :lol:. Rolled back traffic enforcement, general patrol, no fines, etc. Also how will the cities/counties deal with that income vacum. Criminal activity will not just go away. If it's reactive policing you want, go for it.

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate. Been a fan of them since their inception.

5. What do you want LE to do and be logically and not in some utopian fantasy world? Particularly in dense urban areas. No one has stated this and don't say the usual drumming line. How are you going to get there? You'll still have organized crime, gangs, etc. Oh and let's not forget the random active shooters in work place, schools, etc. WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.


Given how armed Americans are there would still need to be a fast reaction SWAT team like entity for active shooter type incidents, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be connected to the current institutions.

It can be built from the ground up. And a lot of other police responsibilities can be spun off to other entities. Health and wellness checks should be done be social workers for example. Speeding and most other traffic violations can be enforced with camera's etc. I've literally never seen someone pulled over in South Korea. The only time I've seen the police on a road is when they're at the seen of an accident.

*Given how armed Americans are there would still need to be a fast reaction SWAT team like entity for active shooter type incidents, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be connected to the current institutions.

Didn't work and won't work. Waiting for SWAT and you'll have a bigger tragedy on your hands. Minutes and seconds count on an active shooters situation. See Columbine. I got to add, Tim have you ever shot an semi auto AR15? How long do you think it takes to empty a 30 round magazine, or two, or three? Remember while SWAT is getting there shit together in there ready room or where ever those prima donnas hang out, folks are dying. That patrol officer even if alone, with a patrol rifle, will be on scene quicker, and engage the shooter. If nothing more than draw the fire to himself and away from civilians. That is doctrine on active shooters response. Fuck your statement is incredibly obtuse. Sorry.


*Health and wellness checks should be done be social workers for example.
Until they get shot or killed. See my post to Merry about CIT.

*Speeding and most other traffic violations can be enforced with camera's etc.
:lol: Not successful at least here in wa state. Citizenry screamed bloody murder. MAH RIGHTS!!!!!!!


*I've literally never seen someone pulled over in South Korea. The only time I've seen the police on a road is when they're at the seen of an accident.
The U.S. is not South Korea. Stop trying to make a comparison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 11:28:21 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:02:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

I'll remember you said that.

Good, as the French say Mort aux rois.  The Confederate statues in the South and the Soviet statues across eastern Europe serve the same purpose as medieval castles did.  It's to tell the population that "We are in control.  We are everywhere and you can't escape us".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 01:11:34 AM
In Hungary the communist statues were moved to a "statue cemetery" of sorts, you can still go and check them out iirc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 03:00:06 AM
This Minnesota police thing is going to be interesting. I think what the general situation calls for is more stringent control over police forces, not a sort of early communist Russia style self-organising volunteer project, but let's what they have in mind
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 04:21:17 AM
Just seeing the footage of the car/shooting incident in Seattle it's crazy. But also comes after the truck charging protesters in Minneapolis and is reminiscent of Charlottesville. It seems to be a new type of sort of physical attack on protesters. It's weird.

Also agree Minneapolis police thing will be fascinating - I think it makes a lot of sense to, for example, have almost emergency service social workers who have expertise in mental health. Certainly in the UK the highest proportion of deaths linked to contact with the police are mental health call-outs and I think there is an element of everything looks like a nail if you're a hammer with that. Similarly pot is decrminalised in Minnesota so hopefully you could have drug specific emergency services for drug users and then re-found the police.

It's an interesting experiment and I'm not sure how it'll work in practice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 08, 2020, 04:37:15 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
After posting a picture of his dad on civil rights marches, here's Mitt Romney joining the 1,000 Christians for BLM today:
[img width=12
This is a sign of the success of these protests. If you'd said on 1 January that by the end of the year Mitt Romney would have joined a BLM protest I think you would have been laughed out the room.

So, Romney....actually a decent guy or just wants to stick it to Trump?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 04:41:15 AM
I think Romney has always been a decent guy. My view is that Romney is finally in a position where he is just himself. I think previously (or in 2008 and 2012) he was almost playing a role. He spotted a gap in the market of Presidential candidates and went for it, but I always felt it was inauthentic - and was partly why other Republican candidates held him in contempt.

I think now that ambition or possibility of becoming President has gone, now he's representing a state he loves (which was notably uncomfortable with Trump), he's able to be himself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 04:46:44 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2020, 04:37:15 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
After posting a picture of his dad on civil rights marches, here's Mitt Romney joining the 1,000 Christians for BLM today:
[img width=12
This is a sign of the success of these protests. If you'd said on 1 January that by the end of the year Mitt Romney would have joined a BLM protest I think you would have been laughed out the room.

So, Romney....actually a decent guy or just wants to stick it to Trump?

What's the yardstick for that? Compared to Trump, Dubya Bush is a standup guy I'd happily vote for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 05:07:08 AM
OMG the Labour leader being measured and reasonable? How refreshing:

QuoteIt shouldn't be done in that way. Completely wrong to pull a statue down like that.

But, stepping back, that statue should have been taken down a long, long time ago. You can't, in 21st-century Britain, have a slaver on a statue.

A statue is there to honour people. And you can't have that in 21st-century Britain. That statue should have been brought down properly with consent and put, I would say, in a museum.

This was a man who was responsible for 100,000 people being moved from Africa to the Caribbean as slaves, including women and children who were branded on their chests with the name of the company that he ran. Of the 100,000, 20,000 died en route and they were chucked in the sea.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 08, 2020, 05:20:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 05:07:08 AM
OMG the Labour leader being measured and reasonable? How refreshing:

Quote
...
You can't, in 21st-century Britain, have a slaver on a statue.
...

I imagine there are quite a lot of them. I don't see Drake coming down any time soon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 08, 2020, 05:43:22 AM
QuoteWhat's the yardstick for that? Compared to Trump, Dubya Bush is a standup guy I'd happily vote for.
Well, being better than Trump is a given.
But you don't see many politicians even from the progressive side of things so actively supporting the protests.

Quote from: Maladict on June 08, 2020, 05:20:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 05:07:08 AM
OMG the Labour leader being measured and reasonable? How refreshing:

Quote
...
You can't, in 21st-century Britain, have a slaver on a statue.
...

I imagine there are quite a lot of them. I don't see Drake coming down any time soon.
I've not seen a Drake statue about actually. Maybe in his home town?

Drake is nowhere near as bad as this guy though. His slave trading being very small scale, reselling slaves that he had stolen, and far further back in history.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2020, 05:59:34 AM
There wasn't really much of an abolitionist movement in the late 17th century either.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 06:06:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2020, 05:43:22 AM
Well, being better than Trump is a given.
But you don't see many politicians even from the progressive side of things so actively supporting the protests.
Lots of Dems have been attending and posting themselves on social media. Elizabeth Warren has been on at least three days, normally with her dog but I don't think she's been doing the selfies so much.

Quote
I've not seen a Drake statue about actually. Maybe in his home town?

Drake is nowhere near as bad as this guy though. His slave trading being very small scale, reselling slaves that he had stolen, and far further back in history.
Yeah I think there's a load in Devon, as you'd expect - hometown boy done good. I can't think of any in London off the top of my head, which is surprising given that I can think of statues of at least 4 US Presidents (Washington, Lincoln, FDR and Ike) and of course there's even a statue of George IV giving his horse severe back pain.

But it's right there will be loads of statues of slavers around - especially in the City with statues of various grandees from the 17th-18th century. As I say I'd like us to have this debate and consider how we confront and deal with our history, which hopefully this will provoke. In general my preference is to add context and remember the victims in the same sort of space as we remember the slave traders. I also think that would work, for example, with the statue of Clive outside the Foreign Office or the statue of Napier in Trafalgar Square.

But as I say putting up a statue is a cultural expression and taking one down is exactly the same. What may have been the culture that the UK wanted to celebrate/memorialise in the 1890s is different than what we want now. You know, we're a country that's torn down Catholic statues and white-washed walls and destroyed stained glass, we've torn down royallist and parliamentarian monuments etc. I'd like a lot of it preserved in a museum but I sort of think it's okay to re-fresh the public space in our streets and squares fairly regularly - what does it express about us now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 06:16:36 AM
QuoteBut as I say putting up a statue is a cultural expression and taking one down is exactly the same. What may have been the culture that the UK wanted to celebrate/memorialise in the 1890s is different than what we want now. You know, we're a country that's torn down Catholic statues and white-washed walls and destroyed stained glass, we've torn down royallist and parliamentarian monuments etc. I'd like a lot of it preserved in a museum but I sort of think it's okay to re-fresh the public space in our streets and squares fairly regularly - what does it express about us now.

I agree with this completely, but if you take yesterday's event, remove the particulars and look just at the act in general, then what happened was that a group of people assembled and tore down a public structure by force, because they wanted to.

It is very important, especially in a multi-cultural society, but really in any society that wants rule of law, that such acts do not become accepted, even conditionally. Otherwise streets will become a battleground of damaging symbols.


In regards to slavery, a proper facing of its history with it would be apt for Britain because I don't think they have anything to be particularly ashamed about. Yes, they did partake and just like that guy on the statue, those who got filthy rich over the suffering of untold thousands, should not be celebrated or having statues of them. But Britain also led the fight on abolishing slavery around the world,  quite literally, with the Royal Navy hunting slaveships IIRC. This and the people playing a key role in it is should be remembered and statues raised about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 08, 2020, 06:19:03 AM
On the statue removal thing... I'm wondering if it was thrown in the water,  treating it like a shopping trolley and not worthy of much, or as a bit of commentary on his victims.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 08, 2020, 06:33:01 AM
To me, the sadder reflection on modern society is that pretty much everyone there is pointing a camera/mobile phone camera at the event for their later self-aggrandizement on Instragram/Facebook.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 06:35:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 06:16:36 AM
I agree with this completely, but if you take yesterday's event, remove the particulars and look just at the act in general, then what happened was that a group of people assembled and tore down a public structure by force, because they wanted to.

It is very important, especially in a multi-cultural society, but really in any society that wants rule of law, that such acts do not become accepted, even conditionally. Otherwise streets will become a battleground of damaging symbols.
Yeah - I think the added point is just that I know Bristol quite well and I know there have been attempts to change that statue for a long time it was agreed in the last few years to add an additional plaque that explicitly referred to him as a slave trader but it has not been possible to agree a text (and in fairness there are still at least four streets, one tower, one pub, two schools and a local baked good named after him). I think that is part of the reason this happened in Bristol with that statue is how to difficult it has been to even add something acknowledging his part in the slave trade in a democratic way. In part it's a BLM issue, in part it's probably frustration at how difficult it has been to do this in the "right" way.

QuoteOn the statue removal thing... I'm wondering if it was thrown in the water,  treating it like a shopping trolley and not worthy of much, or as a bit of commentary on his victims.
I don't know but it is definitely the latter. As the Mayor of Bristol put it, "we have a statue of someone who made their money by throwing our people into water...and now he's on the bottom of the water."

Edit: And this image from the end of the protest is striking - Bristol council has been collecting the placards for permanent display, which I think is appropriate:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ-DN4sWsAAB12v?format=jpg&name=large)

Edit: Also, incidentally, when the debate was around a second plaque referring to his role in the slave trade, one local Tory councillor said it would be justified to steal the second plaque. So defacing the statue/attacking public property is okay in certain circumstances :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 08, 2020, 06:48:27 AM
It seems these events tend to happen roughly the same way in every time and place. When the momentum is there for permanent change, the first couple of statues come down by (spontaneous) force, then the other ones are removed quietly by the authorities.

Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2020, 05:43:22 AM
I've not seen a Drake statue about actually. Maybe in his home town?

There is a rather prominent one in Plymouth
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/bauM8_GpqGEcx-6xxNN9dlz2YObRls65-1vMFBaVAZokli1k5yrxQp6PrmdhqFZKJzcOEywGBio65c3fFKrro9w7vObnXYHzdDbcqoJlNm-QCINVytbENfoYqRzj9CtnAmAzogswFttAsTrOQHpu4zWihPi7)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Fate on June 08, 2020, 06:51:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2020, 04:37:15 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
After posting a picture of his dad on civil rights marches, here's Mitt Romney joining the 1,000 Christians for BLM today:
[img width=12
This is a sign of the success of these protests. If you'd said on 1 January that by the end of the year Mitt Romney would have joined a BLM protest I think you would have been laughed out the room.

So, Romney....actually a decent guy or just wants to stick it to Trump?

Maybe he's a decent man, but I wouldn't trust his virtue signaling on BLM as genuine until we see legislative action. He's a politician who will bend with the wind and discards principles. Remember he has both represented an extremely liberal state in the past (Gov. of Massachussetts) and now an extremely conservative state (Sen. of Utah) so we know he has no qualms about pretending to believe whatever is necesssary to win election. I think he mostly wants to stick it to Trump and sees an opening for 2024 to gain power.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2020, 07:58:22 AM
John Oliver's Last Week Tonight's has been, unsurprisingly, about the police in the US. It covers many of the topics we've been mentioning in the last few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2020, 09:44:39 AM
Apparently the Buffalo cops who resigned from the Emergency Response unit didn't do so out of solidarity with the officers who had been suspended for pushing the 75 yo man to the ground, but because they'd no longer be legally covered by the city or their union during their actions.

QuoteEXCLUSIVE: Two Buffalo Police ERT members say resignation was not in solidarity with suspended officers

BUFFALO, N.Y. (WKBW) — "It went bad. It went bad."

Two officers of the Buffalo Police Department's Emergency Response Team spoke with 7 Eyewitness News under the condition their names not be used.

The officers are part of the 57-person volunteer assignment team that resigned Friday, following an incident involving two of their members Thursday night in Niagara Square. They did not resign from the police department, only from their roles on the team.

The officers we spoke with said the Buffalo Police Benevolent Association's statement asserting all 57 officers resigned from ERT in a "show of support" with the two officers that were suspended without pay is not true.

"I don't understand why the union said it's a thing of solidarity. I think it sends the wrong message that 'we're backing our own' and that's not the case," said one officer with whom we spoke.

"We quit because our union said [they] aren't legally backing us anymore. So why would we stand on a line for the City with no legal backing if something [were to] happen? Has nothing to do with us supporting," said another.

A representative from the Buffalo Police Benevolent Association told 7 Eyewitness News Reporter Hannah Buehler the officers resigned in "disgust" with how the two officers were treated.

"Some of them probably resigned because they support the officer," said another officer with whom we spoke. "But, for many of us, that's not true."

"The City, DA Flynn, they're not representing those guys at all. They have to find their own lawyers, they have to come out of pocket."

7 Eyewitness News was not able to reach PBA president John Evans to confirm this information or get a response to several officers shooting down his assertions, but we did obtain an email sent to PBA members by Evans.

It states, in part:

"In light of this, in order to maintain the sound financial structure of the PBA it will be my opinion the PBA NOT to pay for any ERT or SWAT members legal defense related to these protests going forward. This Admin in conjunction with DA John Flynn and or JP Kennedy could put a serious dent in the PBA's funds."

"You can't ask people to do something and then when they do it and it goes bad then you just say they're on their own," an officer told 7 Eyewitness News.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:39:56 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 11:10:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 07, 2020, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 07, 2020, 10:01:54 PM

But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.

You clearly had ideas - and more experience than the rest of us - and I wanted to hear them. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Quote
WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

If you're asking what *I* want, the answer is pretty close to what you suggested with a few minor tweaks that probably aren't worth mentioning. But one thing that I think *has* to happen that you didn't bring up is alternatives to police response - or addendums to police response.

As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

*As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

In Washington state it's called CIT (Crisis Intervention Training) certification that police officers can and do get. I have sent 20 or so of my officers to that certification. This certification has been in wa state for maybe a decade IIRC. And the police officers do just what you describe. It is and has been incredibly effective. Maybe wa state is ahead of the curve in this area? Don't know about the rest of the country


*Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

Yes it is and it needs to be a multi pronged approach to stamp it out. Departmentally, Politically, and Society itself etc.

However those nets you describe are a part of the systemic problem for the police in general. But they need to go away. How many use of force issues did that turd have in his record who killed Floyd? Too many and that goes to the heart of it IMO. He should have never been a cop let alone an FTO training new officers.

So despite the snarky back-and-forth, we seem to agree on nearly all points. :P

My guess is that most people agree on these points. The problem is in gaining the trust that those who can and will make the decisions will do so in good faith. Trust has been seriously eroded and what's being seen today builds on that mistrust.

The very first thing that has to happen is that the police HAVE to be seen as being on the side of the people, and right now, they are anything but. And again, that falls on them. The "bad apples" came from them, stayed with them, and continue to be protected by them. I see the protests as forcing the police to see that and deal with it.

How they handle the next couple of weeks and months will show if they - the police - really do want change and to be part of the solution instead of staying a militarized thug squad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:56:23 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 08, 2020, 06:33:01 AM
To me, the sadder reflection on modern society is that pretty much everyone there is pointing a camera/mobile phone camera at the event for their later self-aggrandizement on Instragram/Facebook.

I went downtown to document things. I didn't take a single selfie, but I did take a ton of pictures.

I'm glad people are doing more of that. Even with their mean mugs in the photos.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 11:38:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

Maybe the statue just tripped and fell.

Also it had a troubled past, probably preexisting conditions.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 12:06:35 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 11:38:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

Maybe the statue just tripped and fell.

Also it had a troubled past, probably preexisting conditions.

If they'd have just followed orders, they wouldn't have had any problems. I've never had any problems, and it's because I always follow orders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 12:17:29 PM
It was probably intoxicated. We need to wait for the tox screens to come back.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 12:21:11 PM
Mob rule, what else than equality could POSSIBLY result from it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 08, 2020, 12:28:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 12:21:11 PM
Mob rule, what else than equality could POSSIBLY result from it?

zoups ok with it as long as its his mob doing the ruling
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 08, 2020, 12:28:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 12:21:11 PM
Mob rule, what else than equality could POSSIBLY result from it?

zoups ok with it as long as its his mob doing the ruling
I mean one man's mob rule is another (better) man's revolution :goodboy:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 08, 2020, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 08, 2020, 12:28:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 12:21:11 PM
Mob rule, what else than equality could POSSIBLY result from it?

zoups ok with it as long as its his mob doing the ruling
I mean one man's mob rule is another (better) man's revolution :goodboy:

Fair :D

I read that they also graffiti'd a Churchill statue. Where was tyr last night :shifty:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 12:53:19 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 08, 2020, 12:28:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2020, 12:21:11 PM
Mob rule, what else than equality could POSSIBLY result from it?

zoups ok with it as long as its his mob doing the ruling
I mean one man's mob rule is another (better) man's revolution :goodboy:

I dunno man.  Did you see the video where the Mayor of Minneapolis comes out to talk to the protesters?  But all they wanted him to say is he would defund the police.  He wouldn't agree to that, so the protesters shut down any dialogue and booed him to go home.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I just read an article on what the "defund the police" really means, and how it means not defunding the police.  That may indicate the problem with using this as a slogan.  This is like watching a soccer game where both teams are trying to score into their own goals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I just read an article on what the "defund the police" really means, and how it means not defunding the police.  That may indicate the problem with using this as a slogan.  This is like watching a soccer game where both teams are trying to score into their own goals.

What does it mean? Do all who call for it agree on what it means?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:15:07 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I just read an article on what the "defund the police" really means, and how it means not defunding the police.  That may indicate the problem with using this as a slogan.  This is like watching a soccer game where both teams are trying to score into their own goals.

Yeah, this is really the problem. With the protesters, it has to be slogans, not real policy. But that means that the meanings are almost always lost.

The worst part is that when news crews ask protesters what things look like, what they actually want to see, they don't have an answer. One guy gave the best response, though. He was asked what he was marching for, and he said equality of policing. The reporter asked what that looked like, and he said, "I don't know. I've never seen it."

You can't fault folks for that. As an older black man, he had no idea what being treated like a white guy by police would look and feel like. How can he answer that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I just read an article on what the "defund the police" really means, and how it means not defunding the police.  That may indicate the problem with using this as a slogan.  This is like watching a soccer game where both teams are trying to score into their own goals.

Yeah, it's kind of like that thing with abolishing ICE.  A rhetorical trick so that people who really want zero cops can make happy with people who want to hire two social workers and put them in cop uniforms.  I am not expecting any revolutionary changes in policing in Minneapolis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 01:18:38 PM
And those who own OCP stock.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:19:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I just read an article on what the "defund the police" really means, and how it means not defunding the police.  That may indicate the problem with using this as a slogan.  This is like watching a soccer game where both teams are trying to score into their own goals.

Yeah, it's kind of like that thing with abolishing ICE.  A rhetorical trick so that people who really want zero cops can make happy with people who want to hire two social workers and put them in cop uniforms.  I am not expecting any revolutionary changes in policing in Minneapolis.

In Minneapolis itself, because it's both the epicentre of the protests and because it's a pretty liberal place, I could see them doing something radical.

But I don't see it going much wider than that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
I just read an article on what the "defund the police" really means, and how it means not defunding the police.  That may indicate the problem with using this as a slogan.  This is like watching a soccer game where both teams are trying to score into their own goals.

Yeah, it's kind of like that thing with abolishing ICE.  A rhetorical trick so that people who really want zero cops can make happy with people who want to hire two social workers and put them in cop uniforms.  I am not expecting any revolutionary changes in policing in Minneapolis.

The problem is that then we'll be right back here in a year or two when the next black person is killed on camera.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:27:54 PM
I do see an argument for defunding and disbanding some of police.  It's generally been my observation that the higher up you go with police, the more professionalism is baked into the culture, and the less prevalent issues like "professional courtesy" are.  I don't know why that is, but it seems like state police is usually the most reputed police force in the state, although still not without their problems. 

Maybe cutting down on various police fiefdoms would be helpful.  Where I live, there are at least five different police departments all having jurisdiction in normal times, and more if neighboring towns are asked for help on a temporary basis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.
Yeah - protests are always nebulous and have loads of competing, often personal, sometimes violently esoteric motivations. I always think of umbrella man at the JFK assasination. A man who was the centre of years of conspiracy theories because why was he, on a sunny day in Dallas, stood in a square where the President was shot, with his umbrella up. It turns out he was a vehement anti-Nazi and was protesting Joseph Kennedy's pro-appeasement views, which he did through an umbrella as a clear symbol of London where Kennedy was ambassador in the run up to war. It's a reason that was absolutely true but, somehow, less likely than him being a CIA plant.

This is where the leadership comes in - can you identify a cause that is deeply and widely felt enough to bring out enough people; once you've done that, can you leverage it for change. It can be easier if you've got a single narrow point of contention (boycott South Africa, say), but even without that with skilful, opportunistic leaders you can still get results.

So far I'm more impressed with the protesters doing this - they've got the veto-proof councillors in Minnesota behind their "goals" - than I am by the Democratic leadership who mainly seem to be doing stuff like posing with Bibles and taking the knee, which I would characterise as virtue signalling :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.

You mock, but protests are more effective if that have a simple and direct demand.

MLK used a tactic of campaigning for small specific steps.  He went to Birmingham with Rosa Parks to demand simple equality on public transit, for example.  The march from Selma to Montgomery was to demand equality in voting.  Compare that to the mess that was Occupy Wall Street, that never could really decide what it is they wanted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 08, 2020, 01:35:06 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.

Well sure that would be unreasonable in the heat of the moment but eventually they need to get to this point or the protest will have been meaningless. But how do you produce these kinds of concrete results that people in the protest will generally agree to? This is why the 1848 Revolutions failed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 01:38:51 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 01:27:54 PM
I do see an argument for defunding and disbanding some of police.  It's generally been my observation that the higher up you go with police, the more professionalism is baked into the culture, and the less prevalent issues like "professional courtesy" are.  I don't know why that is, but it seems like state police is usually the most reputed police force in the state, although still not without their problems. 
I don't know if it still happens but I wonder if part of that is to do with police forces discriminating against people who do too well in tests (I remember reading about this years ago and thought it was the craziest thing). I think the theory was they wanted people who scored within certain bounds because their concern was that people who did too well might get bored of police work and leave despite the expensive training, so hiring only the mediocre would reduce turnover.

I imagine that's more likely to happen at lower levels, whereas at state or federal levels you'll want better officers and they are less likely to get bored because there's more to do, more interesting work etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
The problem is that then we'll be right back here in a year or two when the next black person is killed on camera.

Sure, and that's the difficult part of this issue, which slogans don't address.

What would it take to guarantee zero black deaths at the hands of police in perpetuity?  Something closer to true defunding IMO.  Take away firearms, tasers, batons, pepper spray, etc. no touching allowed.  Basically mall cops, who could only ask nicely that people stop committing a crime or voluntarily accompany them to a jail cell.

At some point slogans need to be translated into concrete policies in order for their to be real change.  Laws changed, money spent, that sort of thing.  So somebody somewhere has to start putting forward policy proposals, and most importantly IMO, the protest movement has to start discussing these proposals and buying in or not.  Because if the whole point of doing something is to please a group of people, then it's important that what you do actually does please people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 01:42:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:33:37 PM
You mock, but protests are more effective if that have a simple and direct demand.

MLK used a tactic of campaigning for small specific steps.  He went to Birmingham with Rosa Parks to demand simple equality on public transit, for example.  The march from Selma to Montgomery was to demand equality in voting.  Compare that to the mess that was Occupy Wall Street, that never could really decide what it is they wanted.
I think that ignores the role of LBJ. With MLK you had a leader of the protest movement who knew and used his leverage plus a political leader who knew and used his leverage. Occupy had neither - though I think has become important in other ways, especially in Europe - a lot of the new left parties have origins or were re-made in those months. But then compare that with the Tea Party, nebulous as fuck and no real protest leaders, but quite effective in leveraging their power politically and their political representatives were reasonably successful in leveraging a sort-of halt to Obama's program after two years.

At this stage I'd say BLM have been effective and able to leverage their power, I don't think Democrats/the political leadership have been as effective yet.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.

You mock, but protests are more effective if that have a simple and direct demand.
:mellow:

Stop killing us over bullshit not simple enough?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.

You mock, but protests are more effective if that have a simple and direct demand.
:mellow:

Stop killing us over bullshit not simple enough?

What specific policies would you like to see implemented that will ensure that happens?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 08, 2020, 01:54:32 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
The problem is that then we'll be right back here in a year or two when the next black person is killed on camera.

Of course we will (well not exactly, because people won't be pissed off after a month in quarantine and economic strain). This is a cycle that has been repeating for half a century. None of the issues are new, the police departments in the urban environments with most of the protesting are run by people sensitive to the issues, and you have police chiefs and mayors marching along side the protesters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
The problem is that then we'll be right back here in a year or two when the next black person is killed on camera.

Sure, and that's the difficult part of this issue, which slogans don't address.

What would it take to guarantee zero black deaths at the hands of police in perpetuity?  Something closer to true defunding IMO.  Take away firearms, tasers, batons, pepper spray, etc. no touching allowed.  Basically mall cops, who could only ask nicely that people stop committing a crime or voluntarily accompany them to a jail cell.

At some point slogans need to be translated into concrete policies in order for their to be real change.  Laws changed, money spent, that sort of thing.  So somebody somewhere has to start putting forward policy proposals, and most importantly IMO, the protest movement has to start discussing these proposals and buying in or not.  Because if the whole point of doing something is to please a group of people, then it's important that what you do actually does please people.

House Democrats just put a bill forward to outlaw choke-holds and several other police tactics that have proven problematic in the past.

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Obviously, protests should have elected representatives, a clear, five-year plan for the future, a law-enforcement arm, also an official notary on hand to draft binding agreements, and should only shout nuanced, 1000-word essays that extol the virtues of pragmatism.

You mock, but protests are more effective if that have a simple and direct demand.
:mellow:

Stop killing us over bullshit not simple enough?

No, you have to spell out a detailed solution to the professionals who already get paid to deliver law enforcement without significant numbers of BS killings. Duh.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 08, 2020, 01:56:29 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 08, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
:mellow:

Stop killing us over bullshit not simple enough?


One would think not. But how to achieve that is difficult because it is a result of decades of police militarization and centuries of racial strife.

But it is not like those kinds of things are not uncommon in other western countries yet they don't tend to kill people very often. So it is not like there are no concrete examples out there.

And finally the big fucking problem is our decentralized federal system. There is not a national police force to reform but thousands. However, it is not like the priorities and policies of the Federal Government has not produced many of these problems. So that is one fairly obvious thing to solve but no...like most bad and counterproductive federal policies it just seems to linger forever in intertia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 08, 2020, 02:00:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:54:40 PM

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

Meri, you know that will never happen. Police unions, along with firefighter unions, are probably the only ones with bipartisan support.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:00:36 PM
As long as government doesn't demand good results from law enforcement they are unlikely to get them. My impression is that top brass often don't lose their jobs even when their organizations display very poor public safety culture. No wonder pressure to improve doesn't reach ground level.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 01:55:35 PM
No, you have to spell out a detailed solution to the professionals who already get paid to deliver law enforcement without significant numbers of BS killings. Duh.

Zoupa doesn't, but eventually someone does.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 08, 2020, 02:01:10 PM
All public sector unions are sketchy in my opinion.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 08, 2020, 02:02:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:54:40 PM

House Democrats just put a bill forward to outlaw choke-holds and several other police tactics that have proven problematic in the past.

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

While I agree that police unions have been a problem...I can easily see the right (and not without merit) taking that football and saying that all public employee unions (teacher's unions will be the likely target here) share similar problems and that either all should go, or the fact that police unions are being singled out is illegal/unconstitutional/un-democratic/take your pick.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 08, 2020, 02:03:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 08, 2020, 02:01:10 PM
All public sector unions are sketchy in my opinion.  :ph34r:

I do also tend to take the FDR position myself.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:05:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 01:55:35 PM
No, you have to spell out a detailed solution to the professionals who already get paid to deliver law enforcement without significant numbers of BS killings. Duh.

Zoupa doesn't, but eventually someone does.

The experts that already exist can do it, one would hope, or they shouldn't get paid. I don't expect the public to know how to run a nuclear reactor safely, but I certainly understand that it wants it to be done. And experts figure out the details.

Low expectations is the first step towards poor performance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 02:09:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 08, 2020, 02:01:10 PM
All public sector unions are sketchy in my opinion.  :ph34r:
In the UK there's no police union. We had a couple of police strikes in 1918 and 1919 which, I think, terrified the government with their incipient Bolshevism. So the police were banned from having a union. There is the Police Federation which was set up by the government instead and does similar things - they provide lawyers, they negotiate pay settlements etc but they have no strike pay.

Astonishingly Theresa May's one good thing as Home Secretary was when she took on the Police Federation. She basically said they were holding the public in contempt. The racial bias in stop and search, the failings in domestic violence and other issues (Plebgate, Hillsborough, the death of Ian Tomlinson, the death of Jean-Charles de Menezes - all of which involved police cover-ups) were the fault of a "significant minority" not just a few bad apples". I think after that they stopped receiving government funding and the closed shop was ended.

Weirdly the Fire Brigade do have a union and it's one of the most hard-core, very left-wing militant unions in the country (because firefigthers are the true heroes :wub:), police obviously tend to be right wingers with a union. I think it's similar in other European countries: there is no more tasty protest/unrest than when firemen and police clash. Those protests get violent and personal, quick :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:10:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:05:04 PM
The experts that already exist can do it, one would hope, or they shouldn't get paid. I don't expect the public to know how to run a nuclear reactor safely, but I certainly understand that it wants it to be done. And experts figure out the details.

Low expectations is the first step towards poor performance.

All those people with doctorates in Making Sure Cops Don't Kill Black People have been doing a poor job.  I agree we should fire the lot and hire a fresh crews.  Profit!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:12:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:10:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:05:04 PM
The experts that already exist can do it, one would hope, or they shouldn't get paid. I don't expect the public to know how to run a nuclear reactor safely, but I certainly understand that it wants it to be done. And experts figure out the details.

Low expectations is the first step towards poor performance.

All those people with doctorates in Making Sure Cops Don't Kill Black People have been doing a poor job.  I agree we should fire the lot and hire a fresh crews.  Profit!

*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 02:17:01 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 08, 2020, 02:00:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:54:40 PM

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

Meri, you know that will never happen. Police unions, along with firefighter unions, are probably the only ones with bipartisan support.

I said that it is the best thing that can come from all of this. Minneapolis is the first place it would have to happen, because they are the reason that cop was still on the streets.

It's the smarter thing to push for instead of abolishing police departments completely.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

Yes, decent law enforcement isn't even rocket science.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:12:39 PM
*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

In nuclear I assume their are trade offs between cost and risk, and other upsides and downsides.  The choice of what trade offs to accept and which to reject is not a scientific question, it is a political question, and in every country it has been made by the political process.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 02:20:16 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 08, 2020, 02:02:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 01:54:40 PM

House Democrats just put a bill forward to outlaw choke-holds and several other police tactics that have proven problematic in the past.

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

While I agree that police unions have been a problem...I can easily see the right (and not without merit) taking that football and saying that all public employee unions (teacher's unions will be the likely target here) share similar problems and that either all should go, or the fact that police unions are being singled out is illegal/unconstitutional/un-democratic/take your pick.

So, having spent the bulk of my adult years in Illinois, please understand where I'm coming from on this, but....

... I don't know that that's the worst thing that can happen. :ph34r: I don't think they should be abolished completely - but they have way too much power in politics.

I'm a union girl at heart, but some unions are dangerous due to the power they wield. Illinois has more than proven that out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 08, 2020, 02:22:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

I sure hope so.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 02:22:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

From your lips to gods' ears.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 02:26:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:12:39 PM
*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

In nuclear I assume their are trade offs between cost and risk, and other upsides and downsides.  The choice of what trade offs to accept and which to reject is not a scientific question, it is a political question, and in every country it has been made by the political process.
Sure - but the US has made a series of choices to get here:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html

And yes the US is generally a more lethal country - but on this stuff, it is an extreme outlier.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:28:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:12:39 PM
*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

In nuclear I assume their are trade offs between cost and risk, and other upsides and downsides.  The choice of what trade offs to accept and which to reject is not a scientific question, it is a political question, and in every country it has been made by the political process.

Duh. And then the whole question is should politicians make decent law enforcement a reality, just like protesters demand. I don't see any need for the protesters to present technical solutions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:28:57 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 02:26:34 PM
Sure - but the US has made a series of choices to get here:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html

And yes the US is generally a more lethal country - but on this stuff, it is an extreme outlier.

Not sure what your point is and how it fits into Brain and I's amusing little tete a tete.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 02:34:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:28:57 PM
Not sure what your point is and how it fits into Brain and I's amusing little tete a tete.
Backing up Brain, which he never needs, there's trade-offs and risks and choices, but it's not beyond the ken of man. And if politicians can't make them, then that's on them not protesters for having insufficiently detailed police papers.

It's all a bit "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens".

As I say obviously issues in other countries but the US is at an extreme.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:28:00 PM
Duh. And then the whole question is should politicians make decent law enforcement a reality, just like protesters demand. I don't see any need for the protesters to present technical solutions.

So the police themselves are off the hook now?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

Yes, decent law enforcement isn't even rocket science.
I think it's a little more complicated than you give it credit for, especially when you start off with hardened cultures.  I don't think it's overly dramatic to say that police unions act like mafia in many cities.  That means that passing reforms to begin with is difficult, and even after you pass them, making the cops fear the enforcement more than they fear breaking the code is a challenge.  It's not an impossible challenge, societies with omerta have been cracked before, but it requires a lot of effort and political will.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:37:54 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:28:00 PM
Duh. And then the whole question is should politicians make decent law enforcement a reality, just like protesters demand. I don't see any need for the protesters to present technical solutions.

So the police themselves are off the hook now?

I'm sorry, I don't follow at all. What are you talking about?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:38:44 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 02:34:05 PM
Backing up Brain, which he never needs, there's trade-offs and risks and choices, but it's not beyond the ken of man. And if politicians can't make them, then that's on them not protesters for having insufficiently detailed police papers.

It's all a bit "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens".

As I say obviously issues in other countries but the US is at an extreme.

I don't see how Uck's straw man about the lack of white papers from BLM factors in.  I said we need buy in on proposals from the protestors.  If you want to argue that, argue that.

You seem to be dancing around the thesis that reducing black deaths from cops to zero is a no brainer.  Is that your thesis?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:40:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

Yes, decent law enforcement isn't even rocket science.
I think it's a little more complicated than you give it credit for, especially when you start off with hardened cultures.  I don't think it's overly dramatic to say that police unions act like mafia in many cities.  That means that passing reforms to begin with is difficult, and even after you pass them, making the cops fear the enforcement more than they fear breaking the code is a challenge.  It's not an impossible challenge, societies with omerta have been cracked before, but it requires a lot of effort and political will.

What you describe doesn't sound like a scientific problem, but a problem of politics/willpower.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:41:01 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:37:54 PM
I'm sorry, I don't follow at all. What are you talking about?

Earlier you said it was the job of the police themselves to produce results or face the axe.  Now, after I introduced the regulatory role of the state in the nuclear industry, you say it's law makers who's job it is to produce results or face the axe.  Is it one, the other, both?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:40:01 PM
What you describe doesn't sound like a scientific problem, but a problem of politics/willpower.
It is largely that, but there is some science to figuring out how to accomplish breaking the code within the political realities.  There is some science to rooting out corruption, it's not just a matter of finding a resolute enough man at the top who pounds their fist on the table and makes it so.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:41:01 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:37:54 PM
I'm sorry, I don't follow at all. What are you talking about?

Earlier you said it was the job of the police themselves to produce results or face the axe.  Now, after I introduced the regulatory role of the state in the nuclear industry, you say it's law makers who's job it is to produce results or face the axe.  Is it one, the other, both?

Isn't it always both when it comes to these things? For the chain to actually do the job every link in the chain has to be held accountable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:47:23 PM
Isn't it always both when it comes to these things? For the chain to actually do the job every link in the chain has to be held accountable.

Sure.  And I'm saying Teh People have a role to play too.  That their are no experts that can give us magical solutions.  We, collectively, are the only experts there are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 08, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:40:01 PM
What you describe doesn't sound like a scientific problem, but a problem of politics/willpower.
It is largely that, but there is some science to figuring out how to accomplish breaking the code within the political realities.  There is some science to rooting out corruption, it's not just a matter of finding a resolute enough man at the top who pounds their fist on the table and makes it so.

Yes, and there are eggheads who are paid to know these things. And law enforcement bosses who are paid to deliver. And politicians who are paid to get people what they want.

Many significant problems consist of a myriad of interconnected aspects and difficulties. That's why you have people with the training and skills necessary to solve them solve them. Of course I expect experts (scientists and police) to know expert stuff, and I expext politicians to know politics stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 03:02:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:38:44 PM
I don't see how Uck's straw man about the lack of white papers from BLM factors in.  I said we need buy in on proposals from the protestors.  If you want to argue that, argue that.

You seem to be dancing around the thesis that reducing black deaths from cops to zero is a no brainer.  Is that your thesis?
Protests make nothing happen. They build pressure, they draw attention, they turn the question back on the state. But they achieve nothing - unless they achieve everything by, somehow, overthrowing a state entirely.

If your goal is to stop the protests then you don't need to get buy-in from the protesters. You need to do enough to convince their more passive supporters that you've addressed their concerns and sort of drain their support that'll take the wind out of them. I think even that will be a big lift on that given the shift in public opinion - I think the police strongly overestimate the depth of support they had from the public.

If your goal is to address issues of police impunity and systemic racism - then I'm sure there's plenty of experts and international models that can be learned from. It might even be enough to convince the protesters or their supporters. But I don't think that's the major issue - you want buy-in from usual leaders, stakesholders, communities etc. The protests create space to pass legislation and in this case to move policy quite decisively. But they're not the sort of militant wing of the legislature.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2020, 02:47:23 PM
Isn't it always both when it comes to these things? For the chain to actually do the job every link in the chain has to be held accountable.

Sure.  And I'm saying Teh People have a role to play too.  That their are no experts that can give us magical solutions.  We, collectively, are the only experts there are.

Yes, the people have a role to play. They can for instance say "we want non-racist law enforcement" and then the politicians can deliver this. But I think that if you expect magical solutions then that is not very productive, and you will definitely be disappointed. My impression is that many people expect and would be happy with quite normal solutions. I also don't think that law enforcement is that fundamentally different from other sectors when it comes to expert knowledge, and if in fact it is then the experts should definitely be fired.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 03:17:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 03:02:35 PM
Protests make nothing happen. They build pressure, they draw attention, they turn the question back on the state. But they achieve nothing - unless they achieve everything by, somehow, overthrowing a state entirely.

If your goal is to stop the protests then you don't need to get buy-in from the protesters. You need to do enough to convince their more passive supporters that you've addressed their concerns and sort of drain their support that'll take the wind out of them. I think even that will be a big lift on that given the shift in public opinion - I think the police strongly overestimate the depth of support they had from the public.

If your goal is to address issues of police impunity and systemic racism - then I'm sure there's plenty of experts and international models that can be learned from. It might even be enough to convince the protesters or their supporters. But I don't think that's the major issue - you want buy-in from usual leaders, stakesholders, communities etc. The protests create space to pass legislation and in this case to move policy quite decisively. But they're not the sort of militant wing of the legislature.

Buy in from leaders et al, experts *we* can learn from, sounds to me that you're basically agreeing with me but presenting yourself as taking Brain's side.  Which is a thought provoking tactic from a political point of view.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 03:17:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 03:02:35 PM
Protests make nothing happen. They build pressure, they draw attention, they turn the question back on the state. But they achieve nothing - unless they achieve everything by, somehow, overthrowing a state entirely.

If your goal is to stop the protests then you don't need to get buy-in from the protesters. You need to do enough to convince their more passive supporters that you've addressed their concerns and sort of drain their support that'll take the wind out of them. I think even that will be a big lift on that given the shift in public opinion - I think the police strongly overestimate the depth of support they had from the public.

If your goal is to address issues of police impunity and systemic racism - then I'm sure there's plenty of experts and international models that can be learned from. It might even be enough to convince the protesters or their supporters. But I don't think that's the major issue - you want buy-in from usual leaders, stakesholders, communities etc. The protests create space to pass legislation and in this case to move policy quite decisively. But they're not the sort of militant wing of the legislature.

Buy in from leaders et al, experts *we* can learn from, sounds to me that you're basically agreeing with me but presenting yourself as taking Brain's side.  Which is a thought provoking tactic from a political point of view.
:lol: After all these years and you still think I'm precise with language.

It's not for us to learn from experts except on a very generalised social level - we can look at other societies. In terms of policies it's experts, think tankers, politicians, journos and then presenting a compelling enough narrative for us the people to back them. On buy-in you can cut most of those words and just say various stakeholders. I think it's fairly rare you need protesters or their leaders to buy in - in I can't think of a single great protest leader who was placated and rowed in. It's not in their nature they will normally keep protesting forever - and that's great.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 03:39:42 PM
:lol: After all these years and you still think I'm precise with language.

It's not for us to learn from experts except on a very generalised social level - we can look at other societies. In terms of policies it's experts, think tankers, politicians, journos and then presenting a compelling enough narrative for us the people to back them. On buy-in you can cut most of those words and just say various stakeholders. I think it's fairly rare you need protesters or their leaders to buy in - in I can't think of a single great protest leader who was placated and rowed in. It's not in their nature they will normally keep protesting forever - and that's great.

Very precise.  Every word redolent with meaning.  :ph34r:

I don't get the distinction between stakeholders  and protestors and their leaders.

You don't think MLK bought in to LBJ's Civil Rights package of bills and various court rulings?

Gays didn't have a leader, but they protested for gay marriage and gays in the military, and celebrated when they won those things.  That's buying in.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 05:09:53 PM
:lol: Maybe it's semantics :ph34r:

MLK bought into LBJ's Civil Rights Act, and then he went to campaign for open housing in Chicago, and the poor people's campaign, and the campaign against Vietnam - fat lot of good it did LBJ. If you want to stop protests as a politician, your audience isn't the leadership of the protesters. If you can get their support, great - but it won't last, beause they're protesters. You have to get buy in from their more passive supporters both in the affected communities and the wider public.

QuoteGays didn't have a leader, but they protested for gay marriage and gays in the military, and celebrated when they won those things.  That's buying in.
Interesting. I wouldn't have identified either of those as "protest" achievements by the gay. There were protests but I think the more successful was the sort of elite persuasion - journalism, culture, legal cases. I'd say gay protests were Larry Kramer and the various fights of ACT UP for access to drugs, involvement of patients, changes to testing protocols and, above all, attention. Needless to say Larry Kramer was not sated by those achievements.

Maybe I'm wrong but my view is great protest leaders bank wins and move on to the next issue. Buy in is lon term - you all dip your hands and make it work. Which is why you don't look to protests or the people for solutions, that's not what they do.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 05:13:38 PM
Yi, I think your stance - as much as I can discern it - is predicated on an optical illusion. Past protest can much more easily be linked to ulterior results. No one who was protesting then had any form of certainty about outcome, nor the sort of coherence that a retrospective view is bound to ascribe to them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2020, 05:31:44 PM
According to my dives on this topic in the last few days, there are police unions and police unions. Apparently the distinction is between the older, more settled ones (the ones normally called Fraternal or Benevolent brotherhood of this or that), that may or may not be necessarily unions per se (sometimes they might just be informal associations), which are overwhelmingly white, reactionary and absolutely against any change, and more modern, progressive and multiracial organizations (rarely unions as such) that can be worked with.

Regarding precise actions to demand, and also coming from what I've learned on this during this past few days, the following might be advisable:

- End qualified inmunity for cops.
- Require policemen to come from and/or live in the communities in which they're going to work.
- Forbid police unions from making political donations, so they don't influence sheriffs, judges or district attorneys (seriously, stop making justice positions elective, while you're at it).
- Remove competences from police departments that have been dumped on them and for which policemen are not qualified (mental health calls, drug addiction calls, etc.), and move the corresponding budget to the social services departments that can handle them much better, so-called "Defund the police" measures.
- When a given police department is too utterly out of control and unreformable that it can't be worked with, disband it and create a new one from scratch. This is "Defund the police" on steroids.
- Ban overly confrontational police training courses (all that Warrior policing bullshit).
- End transfer programs of military surplus equipment to police forces.
- Banish the "broken windows" school of policing to the dustbin of history.

Another common sense things would be ending the war on drugs, for profit prisons, and the like, and getting into even murkier territory dealing with the underlying cultural issues that drive all this (guns, state of fear, racism...).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 06:50:50 PM
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/08/872416644/former-chief-of-reformed-camden-n-j-force-police-need-consent-of-the-people

Listened to part of this on my drive out to the golf course.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 05:13:38 PM
Yi, I think your stance - as much as I can discern it - is predicated on an optical illusion. Past protest can much more easily be linked to ulterior results. No one who was protesting then had any form of certainty about outcome, nor the sort of coherence that a retrospective view is bound to ascribe to them.

The Birmingham bus boycott was aimed at ending separate seating for blacks and whites.  Lunch counter sit-ins were aimed at ending separate seating at lunch counters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 05:13:38 PM
Yi, I think your stance - as much as I can discern it - is predicated on an optical illusion. Past protest can much more easily be linked to ulterior results. No one who was protesting then had any form of certainty about outcome, nor the sort of coherence that a retrospective view is bound to ascribe to them.

The Birmingham bus boycott was aimed at ending separate seating for blacks and whites.  Lunch counter sit-ins were aimed at ending separate seating at lunch counters.

The George Floyd marches are aimed at ending killing black people on the streets by police. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2020, 07:36:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 05:13:38 PM
Yi, I think your stance - as much as I can discern it - is predicated on an optical illusion. Past protest can much more easily be linked to ulterior results. No one who was protesting then had any form of certainty about outcome, nor the sort of coherence that a retrospective view is bound to ascribe to them.

The Birmingham bus boycott was aimed at ending separate seating for blacks and whites.  Lunch counter sit-ins were aimed at ending separate seating at lunch counters.

They were limited purpose protests?  I am pretty sure both protests were aimed at having equal rights generally.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 08, 2020, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 08, 2020, 07:36:51 PM
They were limited purpose protests?  I am pretty sure both protests were aimed at having equal rights generally.
And also there had been numerous bus boycotts in different states - which led to test cases in the courts by NAACP, they had considered rallying behind another incident in that city before Rosa Parks but I think there were issues with that woman (from a 50s perspective - so she'd probably had sex or taken a drink). Neither of those examples were spontaneous protests, they were planned and deliberate with lots of work by activitsts before the actual boycott.

There was strategy. It wasn't a tired woman refusing to give up her seat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 08, 2020, 08:04:17 PM
And they were planned and targeted thus, because the element of discrimination - lunch counters, buses - was easy enough to understand and visualize. To stage similarly visual protests against "redlining", for instance, would have been a lot more difficult.  So it is with police brutality. There is little to no convenient snippet, enshrined in routine practice, that can easily be so visually protested. Except perhaps precisely how it's now being done: bearing witness to police escalation and the unleashing of violence by law enforcement. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 10:07:24 PM
Your points are taken Ucks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 10:25:12 PM
Maybe you can do me a favor and leave me out of your communal put-down next time Meri.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:27:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 10:25:12 PM
Maybe you can do me a favor and leave me out of your communal put-down next time Meri.

:huh:

Okay. I meant "we" as in Americans on Languish, but you want to internalize it as specific to you, okay. Wasn't my intent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 10:33:23 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:27:23 PM
:huh:

Okay. I meant "we" as in Americans on Languish, but you want to internalize it as specific to you, okay. Wasn't my intent.

I took it as Americans on Languish.  I'm an American on Languish.  If you meant Americans on Languish, excluding Yi, then I'm sorry I misunderstood.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 08, 2020, 10:53:52 PM
Lighten up, Francis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2020, 10:55:41 PM
Suck my dick.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:

Canada historically has had a very small number of people of African heritage.  Not that we have none, and they weren't discriminated against.

If you want to talk about where Canada has failed in terms of our minorities you need to look at how we treated French-speaking Canadians (though that's much more in the past than some on Languish would claim, it was very real), and of course how we treated our First Nations citizens (who weren't even considered citizens until around 50 years ago).  Heck, although I disagreed with it, we had a series of protests in Canada by groups aligned with First Nations just before the coronavirus in 2020.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2020, 11:46:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:

People know about American history because America is the center of the universe.  :showoff:  :P

But seriously, you shouldn't be measuring how much you know about Canada against how much Canadians know about the US. You should measure it against how much Europeans or Mexicans or whoever know about Canada. I think this unwarranted expectation of reciprocity is the core of the ignorant American stereotype.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 05:35:24 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 11:08:50 PM
Canada historically has had a very small number of people of African heritage.  Not that we have none, and they weren't discriminated against.

If you want to talk about where Canada has failed in terms of our minorities you need to look at how we treated French-speaking Canadians (though that's much more in the past than some on Languish would claim, it was very real), and of course how we treated our First Nations citizens (who weren't even considered citizens until around 50 years ago).  Heck, although I disagreed with it, we had a series of protests in Canada by groups aligned with First Nations just before the coronavirus in 2020.
In the UK, there's been different civil righst movements. The one that looks most like the US is the Northern Irish civil rights movement led by Bernadette Devlin, Seamus Mallon and John Hume who were directly inspired by MLK and Gandhi - right down to the hunger strikes. But their campaigns were around things like representation (the unionists gerrmandered seats to avoid Catholic majority seats), employment rights, housing equality and policing (the RUC was overwhelmingling Protestant and their reserve force was largely made up of unionist paramilitaries).

But that's the only bit I can think of that's directly similar in that there is a sort of formal system of discrimination. As I mentioned, in the UK our formal racism was exported through Empire so most BAME communities are largely from the post-war era. But there's been loads of activism that is very like the civil rights movement - the Bristol bus boycott (against a colour bar in hiring), the Grunwick strike ("strikers in saris"), plus fighting the far-right (the Anti-Nazi League etc). I think it's a lot more diffuse - but it's there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Gups on June 09, 2020, 06:24:13 AM
We've also had the issue of discrimination in the police force and the justice system more generally. These have probably been the focus in the last 40 years starting with the Brixton riots (and those in other big cities) and the Scarman report and following through with the Stephen Lawrence murder and more tangentially the Windrush scandal.

But we don't have the same legacy of Jim Crow or de facto segregated cities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
The President has theories about the elderly man shoved in Buffalo:
QuoteBuffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?
:blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 09, 2020, 07:57:20 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
The President has theories about the elderly man shoved in Buffalo:
QuoteBuffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?
:blink:

This would be provocation on the scale of Russian opposition figures provocatively falling out of windows.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 08:00:33 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 07:13:11 PM
The George Floyd marches are aimed at ending killing black people on the streets by police. :)

I think that Yi is correct when he notes that mass action with specific goals works, while mass action with vague goals (like this one) fails.  There simply isn;t any way that this protest can get the laws changed so that the police may not risk a black person's death under any circumstances (which is what "ending killing black people on the streets by police" would require - unless you literally mean "on the streets" and its okay to drag them into a building an kill them).

Sheilbh and Oex are correct that mass action is more effective when planned, and difficult to control when spontaneous (and this difficult to harness to a goal).  I think that demonstrations like the ones we are seeing are just going to go on for a while, without achieving anything specific.  And that's okay.  The memory of them will be a valuable prod to the politicians responsible  to correct the system so that deaths like George Floyd's don't happen again.  And meantime leaders of the black and Hispanic communities can work on keeping the current marchers motivated, because there will be another death like Floyd's and the crowds need to take to the streets in even bigger numbers when that happens.

Correction of the mass of police problems will be an iterative process, I think.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're I'm being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:

FTFY.  One thing that you should keep in mind is that you can only speak for yourself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kaeso on June 09, 2020, 08:11:48 AM
OK as I am mostly working on police reform but in post-conflict settings, I feel like sharing my 2 cents on the current events even if my experience with US colleagues is limited, couple of people I met while deployed and one Swiss who tried his luck in California. I keep in mind we have not the same training and not the same expectation from the public.

Quote from: The Larch on June 08, 2020, 05:31:44 PM
- End qualified inmunity for cops.

The next logical step will be for officers/deputies/agents to get some insurance coverage. That actually could be a good move as insurance won't cover bad practice. Downside each officers will cost more to the city/county.

Quote- Require policemen to come from and/or live in the communities in which they're going to work.

Nice idea but can you really force someone to live in a certain town without encroaching their basic rights. We used to be forced to live in the city we were working. Some officers brought the case in front the court and it was settled you could not impose some to reside somewhere without a proper compensation. When I was still a patrolman, the idea of sending my two daughters to the local school :  :bleeding:

Having local cops is the best so you should ensure they get incentives to remain in the municipal territory (loan to buy a property for instance). About recruiting local population, you can either accept candidates that don't comply with all prerequisites or try to lure people who might not have think law enforcement was a viable path. One is easier than the other.

Quote- Forbid police unions from making political donations, so they don't influence sheriffs, judges or district attorneys (seriously, stop making justice positions elective, while you're at it).

Definitely, Unions should remain apolitical. Also the whole DA election is an open door for incestuous relationship between the sitting DA and the Police. It is really a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" as far as I see from afar. If a DA wants to get reelected, he needs money (donations) and results (arrests/convictions)... Guess who can make that happen.

Quote- Remove competences from police departments that have been dumped on them and for which policemen are not qualified (mental health calls, drug addiction calls, etc.), and move the corresponding budget to the social services departments that can handle them much better, so-called "Defund the police" measures.

Either you have a very expensive "24/7" social patrol or at least an "on call" list of professionals who respond as soon as possible. The second option, when time is critical, may force a police response. I still think a better training for police officers would be less expensive and more useful for the society at large.

Quote- When a given police department is too utterly out of control and unreformable that it can't be worked with, disband it and create a new one from scratch. This is "Defund the police" on steroids.

The Northern Ireland example could offer a good path. But the issue of policing is still linked with politics... You can change a name and a badge, fire the worst officers, you will still need to build trust with the local communities. It is a long path that require both parties to cooperate.

Quote- Ban overly confrontational police training courses (all that Warrior policing bullshit).

Can't argue with that.

Quote- End transfer programs of military surplus equipment to police forces.

As I am a big fan of the gendarmerie model, I would rather have police officer who follow military discipline than having them to get armored vehicles (though you will need them for support elements).

Quote- Banish the "broken windows" school of policing to the dustbin of history.

Are you referring to the "zero tolerance" policy ? Because the "Broken windows" have some merits, once you stop enforcing the law in certain sectors, the living condition of the majority drops. It doesn't mean you should arrest every single jaywalkers and imprisons graffiti artists, merely that you should take notice of a trend and seek to engage the local communities to address it.

QuoteAnother common sense things would be ending the war on drugs, for profit prisons, and the like, and getting into even murkier territory dealing with the underlying cultural issues that drive all this (guns, state of fear, racism...).

I am still baffled by the « for profit » prisons and all the abuses that are connected to them. "Your police is a mirror of your society" so reforming those police agencies without touching the deeper issues won't do much. Also, while democratic control over police agencies is a good thing, it is best if the relationship is not too close, especially with the executive branch.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 09, 2020, 08:51:40 AM
I agree about the broken windows policing.  I think it's bad practice to not enforce laws that do exist, and it does passively victimize innocent civilians by forcing them to cope with crime that police can't be bothered with.  I suspect that the issue with broken windows policing in practice was more about the aggression that was used to accomplish that, or it being used selectively as a pretext for widespread minority harassment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 09:09:40 AM
Interesting. Not thought of the RUC - PSNI comparison.

For what it's worth I think that has had some success in improviing Catholic attitudes to the Police in Northern Ireland which, given the history, is a hell of an achievement. Having said that though, it's been 20 years of affirmative action 50/50 hiring and I believe Catholic members of the police force have increased from under 10% to about a third. It was part of a lot of other measures to increase confidence in all communities in the police, but I suspect there's still some way to go.

Interestingly while there's been an increase in confidence in the PSNI (which I think has always been around 80% for Protestants), I understand that one of the recent challenges is actually how they deal with the legacy crimes from the Troubles.

And this poster from the 80s is weirdly of the moment:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/OgraShinnFeinstickerRUC.JPG)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 05:35:24 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 08, 2020, 11:08:50 PM
Canada historically has had a very small number of people of African heritage.  Not that we have none, and they weren't discriminated against.

If you want to talk about where Canada has failed in terms of our minorities you need to look at how we treated French-speaking Canadians (though that's much more in the past than some on Languish would claim, it was very real), and of course how we treated our First Nations citizens (who weren't even considered citizens until around 50 years ago).  Heck, although I disagreed with it, we had a series of protests in Canada by groups aligned with First Nations just before the coronavirus in 2020.
In the UK, there's been different civil righst movements. The one that looks most like the US is the Northern Irish civil rights movement led by Bernadette Devlin, Seamus Mallon and John Hume who were directly inspired by MLK and Gandhi - right down to the hunger strikes. But their campaigns were around things like representation (the unionists gerrmandered seats to avoid Catholic majority seats), employment rights, housing equality and policing (the RUC was overwhelmingling Protestant and their reserve force was largely made up of unionist paramilitaries).

But that's the only bit I can think of that's directly similar in that there is a sort of formal system of discrimination. As I mentioned, in the UK our formal racism was exported through Empire so most BAME communities are largely from the post-war era. But there's been loads of activism that is very like the civil rights movement - the Bristol bus boycott (against a colour bar in hiring), the Grunwick strike ("strikers in saris"), plus fighting the far-right (the Anti-Nazi League etc). I think it's a lot more diffuse - but it's there.

BB glossed over the civil rights movement in Canada.  Viola Desmond, our Rosa Parks equivalent, is now on our 10 dollar bill. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 09, 2020, 09:58:09 AM
QuoteWhen I was still a patrolman, the idea of sending my two daughters to the local school :  :bleeding:
This is kind of the point.

QuoteThe Northern Ireland example could offer a good path. But the issue of policing is still linked with politics... You can change a name and a badge, fire the worst officers, you will still need to build trust with the local communities. It is a long path that require both parties to cooperate.
Yeah, I was thinking the other day whether lessons could be learned from Northern Ireland. Great counter point to those who say the country will collapse into anarchy if anything is tried. Really think better organisation is required however to fix the current system of every town having their own completely isolated from all others police force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 10:18:08 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
The President has theories about the elderly man shoved in Buffalo:
QuoteBuffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?
:blink:

OANN has an actual Nazi on the payroll, so you know, they are scum.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 10:27:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're I'm being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:

FTFY.  One thing that you should keep in mind is that you can only speak for yourself.

:rolleyes:

Dear lord, the egoes involved on a silly post.

You're right. My apologies. How dare I make a silly post that might say that you Languish people aren't brilliant and knowledgable. Mea culpa.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
Atun-Shei has a new video discussing why Confederate monuments should go, tackling some of the most common arguments against it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otTsbqK4U7o
QuoteMisinformation abounds about the removal of Confederate monuments in across the Southern United States. In this video, I discuss the common misconceptions about this controversial issue. Join me in making treason odious.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 09, 2020, 11:24:20 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 09:09:40 AM


And this poster from the 80s is weirdly of the moment:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/OgraShinnFeinstickerRUC.JPG)

That's a poster recycled from May '68 in France.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iconovox.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F12%2Fcrs_ss_affiche.jpg&hash=762b7ad8581efd74f715702d1f7b838bf862b78f)

With a slogan to match: CRS = SS
CRS being the anti-riot police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kaeso on June 09, 2020, 11:25:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2020, 09:58:09 AM
QuoteWhen I was still a patrolman, the idea of sending my two daughters to the local school :  :bleeding:
This is kind of the point.


Sure, but when the school is 80% non native speakers you think twice before to send them there.  Not so much about the security aspect but because you don't want them to get an additional challenge to overcome when it comes to their future education. Suprisingly teachers also try their best to avoid certain schools when it comes to place their own kids.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 09, 2020, 12:13:23 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 10:27:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're I'm being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:

FTFY.  One thing that you should keep in mind is that you can only speak for yourself.

:rolleyes:

Dear lord, the egoes involved on a silly post.

You're right. My apologies. How dare I make a silly post that might say that you Languish people aren't brilliant and knowledgable. Mea culpa.

:lol:

You told them they have bad ovaries.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 12:17:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
The President has theories about the elderly man shoved in Buffalo:
QuoteBuffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?
:blink:
The Republicans continue to offer up profiles in courage:
QuoteRubio: "I didn't see it. you're telling me about it. I don't read Twitter. I only write on it."

Cornyn: "You know, a lot of this stuff just goes over my head."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 09, 2020, 12:29:19 PM
"I don't know nothing about nothing."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 09, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
Atun-Shei has a new video discussing why Confederate monuments should go, tackling some of the most common arguments against it.

Yeah I liked that video but it also showed just what a ridiculously huge task it is because there are thousands of them. I get the feeling in the UK there are a couple dozen such statues to be removed and they were not really put up because of slavery or to celebrate slavery directly, but rather because the slavers became prominent leaders and philanthropists with their slave money. The Confederate monuments were often put up in direct support and celebration of racism and white supremacy and are thus much worse.

I liked his video rating the statues in New Orleans from Innocent to Hitler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeaoU7T46k
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:50:17 PM
Vienna did a survey a few years ago of "problematic" street names. Thea identified 150+, with 38 rated very problematic. For the most parts it's names of public persons who were known antisemites, like former mayor Karl Lueger, but also many with affiliations to NSDAP, SA, and/or SS. E.g. Ferry Dusika, a well known cyclist who took aver an aryanized shop and was an enthusiastic nazi. But also Ferdinand Porsche, who held an SS rank and requested forced laborers for his production lines. In many cases an additional plaque is added to the street signs pointing out the history of the person. Only in few cases streets or squares are actually renamed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 09, 2020, 01:52:22 PM
Hey I've got one for you guys:

Not a statue, but a neighborhood.  The region west of Edmonton's downtown is a district called Oliver.  It's home to a university, a bunch of shopping and condos.  One of those areas that gentrified hard in the last 20 years.

It's named after Frank Oliver, an MP and cabinet minister from the turn of the last century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Oliver_(politician)

He was minister of the interior under Laurier.  He was partly responsible for Edmonton being made the capital when the province was formed in 1905.  He was also a racist.  The was an era where the prairies were being opened up and we experienced mass immigration.  Now let's be honest it was always kind of implicit that immigration would be whites only, but Oliver signed an Order-in-Council that made it explicit - "the Negro race...is deemed unsuitable to the climate and requirements of Canada".  The OIC apparently was removed on Laurier's last day in office on the claim that Oliver himself wasn't present when it was signed.

Is it right to name a large neighborhood after the fellow?  But then what's in a name - it's not like there's any statues of him around, and "Oliver" by itself is hardly an objectionable name.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Just change the reference to John Oliver. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 01:57:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 09, 2020, 01:52:22 PM
Is it right to name a large neighborhood after the fellow?  But then what's in a name - it's not like there's any statues of him around, and "Oliver" by itself is hardly an objectionable name.

I mean are there other reasons to name something after Oliver? Most actual humans are going to have supported things that, centuries later, are going to be seen as vile but I guess the question I would as is does the monuments to Oliver present him as a hero and do they endorse a white Alberta? Because that is what most of the Confederate Monuments do and hence why they should be removed and other sketchy names and monuments might not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 01:57:58 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Just change the reference to John Oliver. :P

An Englishman who moved to the United States? I guess that is as close to being Canadian without actually being Canadian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:11:00 PM
This seems fairly revealing:
https://twitter.com/AugustTakala/status/1270399690912272384?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 02:12:36 PM
Everybody is to be blamed...except themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 02:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:11:00 PM
This seems fairly revealing:
https://twitter.com/AugustTakala/status/1270399690912272384?s=20

Can we put his rant over some of the ugly videos of NYPD from the last 10 or so days?

Also:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaFrXYeUwAEc-zG?format=png&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:16:47 PM
Yeah. It's extraordinary - that demand for respect.

I think the police really overestimated the depth of support for them. From a WashPost poll today:
QuoteAmong white voters:
57% disapprove of Trump's handling
69% support protests
68% say Floyd's death shows systemic mistreatment of backs
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:16:47 PM

I think the police really overestimated the depth of support for them.

They had Mono in their focus group.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:21:39 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:16:47 PM

I think the police really overestimated the depth of support for them.

They had Mono in their focus group.
It's just such entitled rage at the possibility of maybe being held accountable. It's unbelievable.

They really are the last unreformed bit of the public sector.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 09, 2020, 02:52:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:21:39 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:16:47 PM

I think the police really overestimated the depth of support for them.

They had Mono in their focus group.
It's just such entitled rage at the possibility of maybe being held accountable. It's unbelievable.

They really are the last unreformed bit of the public sector.

They've been told they're heroes for the past 20 years. Doing a dangerous job.

Driver/sales workers and truck drivers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 24.7 per 100,000 workers.

Police and sheriff's patrol officers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 14.6 per 100,000 workers.

So your pizza delivery guy is even more of a hero. Also they rarely choke black people to death on TV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Yet when I was delivering pizzas not one person said "thank you for your service"  :mad:

But really I would have preferred a tip anyway.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 09, 2020, 03:14:28 PM
QuoteStephen Miller, who crafted Trump's immigration policy at the southern border, including separating families and caging children, is preparing a White House speech on race relations.

Brace yourselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 03:16:14 PM
"Americans of all races must unite to save our country from hordes of immigrant caravans!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 03:18:54 PM
"It's not your fault that you were born of inferior blood. Don't be ashamed and accept your station in life."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 09, 2020, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 09, 2020, 03:14:28 PM
QuoteStephen Miller, who crafted Trump's immigration policy at the southern border, including separating families and caging children, is preparing a White House speech on race relations.

Brace yourselves.

This should be good. :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2020, 03:22:40 PM
"There are good people on both sides, acknowledge that fact and clear the streets or you will be shot"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Yet when I was delivering pizzas not one person said "thank you for your service"  :mad:

But really I would have preferred a tip anyway.
The delivery workers very much are key workers - especially the poor lads schlepping my Deliveroo to me - and I thank (and tip) them all :goodboy:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 09, 2020, 03:37:01 PM
A few leaked quotes:

"...Let us turn a deaf ear to those who would interpret Christian brotherhood as racial equality."
"...the sickening and saddest feature...the considerable number of degenerate white women giving birth to mulatto children..."
"...insanity, tendency to crime, and immorality are almost surely transmitted to their children, especially when both parents are of the same class. The worst forms of undesirables born amongst us are those whose parents are of different races."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 09, 2020, 03:50:12 PM
And those are the positive, affirmative quotes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 09, 2020, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Just change the reference to John Oliver. :P

I'm not a fan.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2020, 03:55:14 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 09, 2020, 03:50:12 PM
And those are the positive, affirmative quotes.

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 09, 2020, 03:37:01 PM
A few leaked quotes:

"...Let us turn a deaf ear to those who would interpret Christian brotherhood as racial equality."
"...the sickening and saddest feature...the considerable number of degenerate white women giving birth to mulatto children..."
"...insanity, tendency to crime, and immorality are almost surely transmitted to their children, especially when both parents are of the same class. The worst forms of undesirables born amongst us are those whose parents are of different races."

Leaked from what?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 04:04:39 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 09, 2020, 03:37:01 PM
A few leaked quotes:

"...Let us turn a deaf ear to those who would interpret Christian brotherhood as racial equality."
"...the sickening and saddest feature...the considerable number of degenerate white women giving birth to mulatto children..."
"...insanity, tendency to crime, and immorality are almost surely transmitted to their children, especially when both parents are of the same class. The worst forms of undesirables born amongst us are those whose parents are of different races."
"And some, I assume, are good people."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 04:05:18 PM
Those are famous quotes from Jim Crow advocates a hundred years ago Meri
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 04:05:18 PM
Those are famous quotes from Jim Crow advocates a hundred years ago Meri

They're still used today.

I thought he was saying that they leaked from some hot mic or something. I hadn't read the stuff prior to about Miller writing the speech.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2020, 04:28:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 04:05:18 PM
Those are famous quotes from Jim Crow advocates a hundred years ago Meri

They're still used today.

I thought he was saying that they leaked from some hot mic or something. I hadn't read the stuff prior to about Miller writing the speech.

A perfectly reasonable assumption to make
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 05:20:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 04:05:18 PM
Those are famous quotes from Jim Crow advocates a hundred years ago Meri

They're still used today.

I thought he was saying that they leaked from some hot mic or something. I hadn't read the stuff prior to about Miller writing the speech.

I know. It was just a FYI. That was the point he was making.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 09, 2020, 05:36:10 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 09, 2020, 03:14:28 PM
QuoteStephen Miller, who crafted Trump's immigration policy at the southern border, including separating families and caging children, is preparing a White House speech on race relations.

Brace yourselves.

Oh, this ought to be good...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 09, 2020, 05:41:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 05:20:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2020, 04:05:18 PM
Those are famous quotes from Jim Crow advocates a hundred years ago Meri

They're still used today.

I thought he was saying that they leaked from some hot mic or something. I hadn't read the stuff prior to about Miller writing the speech.

I know. It was just a FYI. That was the point he was making.

Yep.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 05:43:07 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 09, 2020, 02:52:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:21:39 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 02:16:47 PM

I think the police really overestimated the depth of support for them.

They had Mono in their focus group.
It's just such entitled rage at the possibility of maybe being held accountable. It's unbelievable.

They really are the last unreformed bit of the public sector.

They've been told they're heroes for the past 20 years. Doing a dangerous job.

Driver/sales workers and truck drivers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 24.7 per 100,000 workers.

Police and sheriff's patrol officers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 14.6 per 100,000 workers.

So your pizza delivery guy is even more of a hero. Also they rarely choke black people to death on TV.


The US really needs to get over its uniform fetish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
So are we going to really get police reform in this country?  It feels like there is finally some momentum on that front.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 09, 2020, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
So are we going to really get police reform in this country?  It feels like there is finally some momentum on that front.
If we manage to sideline the "no, no, we really do mean defund the police" idiots, maybe.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 06:16:58 PM
Finally Crossfits's done something to justify my years long boycott:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryancbrooks/crossfit-ceo-founder-zoom-greg-glassman-george-floyd
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 09, 2020, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 09, 2020, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
So are we going to really get police reform in this country?  It feels like there is finally some momentum on that front.
If we manage to sideline the "no, no, we really do mean defund the police" idiots, maybe.

These idiots are the ones who put it in the national conversation. Including by showing up on the other side of rubber bullets. Disagree with them all you want. But maybe with less sneering.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 09, 2020, 06:56:09 PM
Yet another victim.  :sleep:

Quote'Cops' Canceled at Paramount Network

"Cops" has officially been canceled at Paramount Network.

Definitive news that the series won't return comes only four days after Variety exclusively reported that it had been pulled from the schedule.

"'Cops' is not on the Paramount Network and we don't have any current or future plans for it to return," a Paramount Network spokesperson said in a statement.

The original decision to hold  "Cops" was spurred by nationwide protests against police brutality following the killing of George Floyd by Minnesota police officers.

"Cops" originally launched on Fox in 1989 and has come under fire in recent years for its depicts law enforcement and questionable behind the scenes practices.

Fox aired 25 seasons of "Cops," pairing it with "America's Most Wanted" on Saturday nights for 14 years. "Most Wanted" moved to Lifetime in 2011 and was eventually canceled. "Cops," meanwhile, got a new lease on life in 2013 when Spike TV ordered new episodes and paired them with repeats. (Spike was rebranded as Paramount Network in 2018.)

At the same time as Paramount Network pulled "Cops" from its plans, A&E removed a similar show in "Live PD" from its schedule "out of respect for the families of George Floyd and others who have lost their lives."

"Live PD" is currently the number one series on cable on Friday and Saturday nights, and follows cops and sheriffs — live, in real time, as they patrol various cities and counties across the country.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 07:52:42 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 09, 2020, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Just change the reference to John Oliver. :P

I'm not a fan.

Oliver Platt?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 07:52:42 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 09, 2020, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Just change the reference to John Oliver. :P

I'm not a fan.

Oliver Platt?
Cromwell - then no one could object.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
So are we going to really get police reform in this country?  It feels like there is finally some momentum on that front.

It probably depends on what you mean by really.  I think a number of cities are going to try and adopt the community friendly style of policing described in that NPR story I linked upstream (which, to be cynical, sounds like we'll let you sell drugs as long as you don't murder each other).  A number of cities will try out things like Uck's mental health interveners.  I think public prosecutors will feel the need to go after cops who use force resulting in death.  I don't see elimination of police unions happening.  I also foresee problems with police recruitment, as potential recruits perceive the risks of criminal prosecution as too high.  I understand there are already significant shortfalls in recruiting (which might explain the bad apples being passed from one department to another).  I think police reform is an issue that will still be debated 50 years from now, just like the issue of education reform has never ended and will never end.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2020, 09:02:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BISubA3iqs4

Pretty predictable nonresponses from GOP Senators when asked about Donald's antifa provacateur tweet, but I was a little surprised by the masking rate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 09, 2020, 09:34:24 PM
I guess they could use some instructions on how to use them, though.  They should cover mouth and nose, not eyes and ears.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 09:48:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 09, 2020, 10:27:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 08, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
I'm a little upset that we're I'm being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians. :blush:

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank. :ph34r:

FTFY.  One thing that you should keep in mind is that you can only speak for yourself.

:rolleyes:

Dear lord, the egoes involved on a silly post.

You're right. My apologies. How dare I make a silly post that might say that you Languish people aren't brilliant and knowledgable. Mea culpa.

:lol:  Methinks the lady protest too much. 

Just stay in your lane, and you won't get gigged for saying silly things.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 09, 2020, 11:12:28 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2020, 09:48:09 PM
Just stay in your lane,

:o  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 09, 2020, 11:16:58 PM
(https://fearfreehappyhomes.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/thundercatsfeatured.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 11:41:46 PM
Fraidycat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 02:22:01 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2020, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2020, 07:52:42 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 09, 2020, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 09, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Just change the reference to John Oliver. :P

I'm not a fan.

Oliver Platt?
Cromwell - then no one could object.

Crom!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kaeso on June 10, 2020, 02:40:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 09, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
So are we going to really get police reform in this country?  It feels like there is finally some momentum on that front.

The issue in the US (like in Switzerland to a certain degree) is that policing a rather local issue. Even if the democrats win both houses and the presidency, they can enact laws as long they don’t step too much over the toes of the states. They can ban certain practices like the chokehold and civil assets forfeiture but they will have little impact on who is on patrol, that’s a decision that is taken on the lower level. And 4 years can be long if the Unions decide to fight any changes… You need them onboard,

If the people want real changes and reform they must vote. Any reform which will be announced due to protests will be cosmetic and not change the underlying problems (social inequity mostly – lack of public funding) that fuel the police brutality. An Ethic charter can address some issues like the blue wall of silence, though it has some perverse effect and can reward “Blue Falcons”.

For real changes, you will need to look at recruitment, training and manpower management. Granted that’s mostly for large police departments but what is needed is to change the reason why some people apply and some don’t. Then look how people are promoted, if you reward solely on cases (arrests) you will reward to most aggressive officers. You need probably to have a salary scale that avoid poorer communities face difficulty to hire quality staff. Training should be longer and continuing education should be important allowing also officers and deputies to learn something else that may allow them to change career if needed.

As the great Spice Girls once asked : “So tell me what you want, what you really, really want”, and my reply will be, for a police reform, more money to be spent on better cops and less on sniper rifles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2020, 06:57:50 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/06/10/christopher-columbus-statue-in-boston-beheaded-overnight/#7955adad4160

QuotePolice are investigating after a statue of Christoper Columbus on Boston's Atlantic Avenue was beheaded overnight, as a movement to remove statues commemorating slavers and colonizers continues to sweep across the world.

The statue in Boston's Christopher Columbus Waterfront park had its head cut off in the early hours of Wednesday, with images showing the head lying on the ground next to the monument.

It comes after protesters in Virginia tore down a Columbus statue, set it on fire and tossed it into Richmond's Byrd Park lake on Tuesday night.

The Italian explorer is credited as one of the first Europeans to come to the Americas, and is also associated with starting off centuries of European colonization and oppression of indigenous people.

There has been mounting backlash in recent years over the commemoration of Columbus Day, which some, including Native American communities, believe should be permanently renamed to Indigenous Peoples' Day.

Strange that they don't list anyone of the terrible things that Columbus did that could be why he's been targeted (just that he started colonization).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 07:12:42 AM
Good thing there are no historically important statues in the US. People going to town in Rome or Florence would be a real problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 07:25:05 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 07:12:42 AM
Good thing there are no historically important statues in the US.

The only one was destroyed in 1831.  :(

edit: And there's that kind of big one in New York harbor

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2020, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 07:25:05 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 07:12:42 AM
Good thing there are no historically important statues in the US.

The only one was destroyed in 1831.  :(

edit: And there's that kind of big one in New York harbor



(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555426896/shape/mentalfloss/istock_000039160502_small.jpg)

(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EDD6D0/inside-the-thomas-jefferson-monument-washington-dc-with-the-declaration-EDD6D0.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2020, 07:45:40 AM
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lincoln-memorial-defaced-protesters/

(https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2020/06/Lincoln-fake.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 10, 2020, 07:47:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2020, 06:57:50 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/06/10/christopher-columbus-statue-in-boston-beheaded-overnight/#7955adad4160

QuotePolice are investigating after a statue of Christoper Columbus on Boston's Atlantic Avenue was beheaded overnight, as a movement to remove statues commemorating slavers and colonizers continues to sweep across the world.

The statue in Boston's Christopher Columbus Waterfront park had its head cut off in the early hours of Wednesday, with images showing the head lying on the ground next to the monument.

It comes after protesters in Virginia tore down a Columbus statue, set it on fire and tossed it into Richmond's Byrd Park lake on Tuesday night.

The Italian explorer is credited as one of the first Europeans to come to the Americas, and is also associated with starting off centuries of European colonization and oppression of indigenous people.

There has been mounting backlash in recent years over the commemoration of Columbus Day, which some, including Native American communities, believe should be permanently renamed to Indigenous Peoples' Day.

Strange that they don't list anyone of the terrible things that Columbus did that could be why he's been targeted (just that he started colonization).

Columbus must have been drinking again and just lost his head.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 10, 2020, 07:59:52 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 10, 2020, 07:47:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2020, 06:57:50 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/06/10/christopher-columbus-statue-in-boston-beheaded-overnight/#7955adad4160

QuotePolice are investigating after a statue of Christoper Columbus on Boston's Atlantic Avenue was beheaded overnight, as a movement to remove statues commemorating slavers and colonizers continues to sweep across the world.

The statue in Boston's Christopher Columbus Waterfront park had its head cut off in the early hours of Wednesday, with images showing the head lying on the ground next to the monument.

It comes after protesters in Virginia tore down a Columbus statue, set it on fire and tossed it into Richmond's Byrd Park lake on Tuesday night.

The Italian explorer is credited as one of the first Europeans to come to the Americas, and is also associated with starting off centuries of European colonization and oppression of indigenous people.

There has been mounting backlash in recent years over the commemoration of Columbus Day, which some, including Native American communities, believe should be permanently renamed to Indigenous Peoples' Day.

Strange that they don't list anyone of the terrible things that Columbus did that could be why he's been targeted (just that he started colonization).

Columbus must have been drinking again and just lost his head.

To be honest, while he was among the best sailors of his age, his tenure as Viceroy and governor was bad, even by the standards of his time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 10, 2020, 08:01:01 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 10, 2020, 07:59:52 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 10, 2020, 07:47:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2020, 06:57:50 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/06/10/christopher-columbus-statue-in-boston-beheaded-overnight/#7955adad4160

QuotePolice are investigating after a statue of Christoper Columbus on Boston's Atlantic Avenue was beheaded overnight, as a movement to remove statues commemorating slavers and colonizers continues to sweep across the world.

The statue in Boston's Christopher Columbus Waterfront park had its head cut off in the early hours of Wednesday, with images showing the head lying on the ground next to the monument.

It comes after protesters in Virginia tore down a Columbus statue, set it on fire and tossed it into Richmond's Byrd Park lake on Tuesday night.

The Italian explorer is credited as one of the first Europeans to come to the Americas, and is also associated with starting off centuries of European colonization and oppression of indigenous people.

There has been mounting backlash in recent years over the commemoration of Columbus Day, which some, including Native American communities, believe should be permanently renamed to Indigenous Peoples' Day.

Strange that they don't list anyone of the terrible things that Columbus did that could be why he's been targeted (just that he started colonization).

Columbus must have been drinking again and just lost his head.

To be honest, while he was among the best sailors of his age, his tenure as Viceroy and governor was bad, even by the standards of time.

If course, off with head the mob says. Who's next guys.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:09:03 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 10, 2020, 07:59:52 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 10, 2020, 07:47:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2020, 06:57:50 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/06/10/christopher-columbus-statue-in-boston-beheaded-overnight/#7955adad4160

QuotePolice are investigating after a statue of Christoper Columbus on Boston's Atlantic Avenue was beheaded overnight, as a movement to remove statues commemorating slavers and colonizers continues to sweep across the world.

The statue in Boston's Christopher Columbus Waterfront park had its head cut off in the early hours of Wednesday, with images showing the head lying on the ground next to the monument.

It comes after protesters in Virginia tore down a Columbus statue, set it on fire and tossed it into Richmond's Byrd Park lake on Tuesday night.

The Italian explorer is credited as one of the first Europeans to come to the Americas, and is also associated with starting off centuries of European colonization and oppression of indigenous people.

There has been mounting backlash in recent years over the commemoration of Columbus Day, which some, including Native American communities, believe should be permanently renamed to Indigenous Peoples' Day.

Strange that they don't list anyone of the terrible things that Columbus did that could be why he's been targeted (just that he started colonization).

Columbus must have been drinking again and just lost his head.

To be honest, while he was among the best sailors of his age, his tenure as Viceroy and governor was bad, even by the standards of time.

With Columbus everything he did besides navigating was extremely shady (I mean, he was even imprisoned in Spain after his 3rd expedition because of his mismanagement of Hispaniola and the atrocities he ordered as its governor), but his achievements as a navigator are undeniable.

Fun fact, Columbus' descendants were embroiled in a protracted legal battle with the Crown of Castille about the share of the profits from the Americas that they claimed were entitled to (10%, according to the original deal he made before the 1st expedition), which the Crown had voided after Columbus was removed as governor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 08:19:08 AM
If we go after Colombus there's really no reason to keep busts of Caesar, Alexander the Great, half the Plantagenet kings, any of the Ottoman sultans, Martin Luther (the 1500s one), etc.  untouched. Would be terrible double standards. And don't get me started about Washington and Jefferson owning slaves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:21:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 08:19:08 AM
If we go after Colombus there's really no reason to keep busts of Caesar, Alexander the Great, half the Plantagenet kings, any of the Ottoman sultans, Martin Luther (the 1500s one), etc.  untouched. Would be terrible double standards. And don't get me started about Washington and Jefferson owning slaves.

Well I do think the purpose of the statues makes a difference. The point of Confederate statues is, usually, to celebrate the redemptionists and Jim Crow and therefore as a tool of political propaganda need to go. Those that exist for other reasons can stay. I don't know about any specific statue of Columbus.

I don't get the "double standards" idea. Were statues of Martin Luther put up to justify killing Jews or something?

But anyway who is we here? It is not like we took the head off of that statue.

Also how many busts of Caesar made within the last 1000 years are displayed anywhere? I don't think anybody is calling for ancient historical artifacts be destroyed just cheaply produced 19th century shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 10, 2020, 08:22:35 AM
QuoteFun fact, Columbus' descendants were embroiled in a protracted legal battle with the Crown of Castille about the share of the profits from the Americas that they claimed were entitled to (10%, according to the original deal he made before the 1st expedition), which the Crown had voided after Columbus was removed as governor.
10% of the budgets of all the nations of the Americas?
Yes please.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:27:33 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 10, 2020, 08:22:35 AM
QuoteFun fact, Columbus' descendants were embroiled in a protracted legal battle with the Crown of Castille about the share of the profits from the Americas that they claimed were entitled to (10%, according to the original deal he made before the 1st expedition), which the Crown had voided after Columbus was removed as governor.
10% of the budgets of all the nations of the Americas?
Yes please.

I don't remember the exact wording, but it was basically one tenth of all the riches obtained from the exploration of the Americas, or somesuch. It ended up being settled in arbitration 30 years after Columbus' death, giving his descendants a fixed income by the Crown, besides other arrangements on other claimed privileges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 08:27:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:21:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 08:19:08 AM
If we go after Colombus there's really no reason to keep busts of Caesar, Alexander the Great, half the Plantagenet kings, any of the Ottoman sultans, Martin Luther (the 1500s one), etc.  untouched. Would be terrible double standards. And don't get me started about Washington and Jefferson owning slaves.

Well I do think the purpose of the statues makes a difference. The point of Confederate statues is, usually, to celebrate the redemptionists and Jim Crow and therefore as a tool of political propaganda need to go. Those that exist for other reasons can stay. I don't know about any specific statue of Columbus.

I don't get the "double standards" idea. Were statues of Martin Luther put up to justify killing Jews or something?

But anyway who is we here? It is not like we took the head off of that statue.

Also how many busts of Caesar made within the last 1000 years are displayed anywhere? I don't think anybody is calling for ancient historical artifacts be destroyed just cheaply produced 19th century shit.

I wasn't aware this Colombus one was a CSA status, my bad. Those are inexcusable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
AFAIK the figure of Columbus in the USA is mostly propped up by the Italian community since the late XIXth, early XXth century, right?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:30:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 08:27:42 AM
I wasn't aware this Colombus one was a CSA status, my bad. Those are inexcusable.

I don't know what is going on with any particular Columbus statue or why it was put up. I was just giving an example as to when I think a statue should be taken down without necessarily meaning every statue of everybody who sucked by today's standards should be ripped down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
AFAIK the figure of Columbus in the USA is mostly propped up by the Italian community since the late XIXth, early XXth century, right?

Probably. They traditionally are the ones carrying a torch for Columbus around here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
AFAIK the figure of Columbus in the USA is mostly propped up by the Italian community since the late XIXth, early XXth century, right?

Probably. They traditionally are the ones carrying a torch for Columbus around here.

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:36:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
AFAIK the figure of Columbus in the USA is mostly propped up by the Italian community since the late XIXth, early XXth century, right?

Probably. They traditionally are the ones carrying a torch for Columbus around here.

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It was a way for Italians to show how American they were so yeah I can see why that would not be as important for Italians in Italy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2020, 08:37:39 AM
All I know about Italians and Columbus is what I saw on The Sopranos.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:43:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 08:19:08 AM
If we go after Colombus there's really no reason to keep busts of Caesar, Alexander the Great, half the Plantagenet kings, any of the Ottoman sultans, Martin Luther (the 1500s one), etc.  untouched. Would be terrible double standards. And don't get me started about Washington and Jefferson owning slaves.

In fairness Jefferson did a lot more than own slaves. He also fucked them. To top it off he was an extreme hypocrite, talking of unalienable rights including liberty while owning slaves. By today's standards he was a walking shitstain. But of course, "times were different then".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:43:24 AM
In fairness Jefferson did a lot more than own slaves. He also fucked them. To top it off he was an extreme hypocrite, talking of unalienable rights including liberty while owning slaves. By today's standards he was a walking shitstain. But of course, "times were different then".

They weren't that different, it wasn't like people didn't call him out for all of his two-facedness at the time when he was alive. But again the statues were not put up to celebrate that stuff but the INalienable rights stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:43:24 AM
In fairness Jefferson did a lot more than own slaves. He also fucked them. To top it off he was an extreme hypocrite, talking of unalienable rights including liberty while owning slaves. By today's standards he was a walking shitstain. But of course, "times were different then".

They weren't that different, it wasn't like people didn't call him out for all of his two-facedness at the time when he was alive. But again the statues were not put up to celebrate that stuff but the INalienable rights stuff.

I may not be the biggest Jefferson fan, but calling him out on his spelling seems petty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:51:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:50:25 AM
I may not be the biggest Jefferson fan, but calling him out on his spelling seems petty.

They are both correct -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 08:52:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM


That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It is odd, and not just Columbus. Cabot, Vespucci, Verrazzano, Pigafetta and Cadamosto are all fairly prominent explorers, but I've never seen a monument for any of them.
Come to think of it, not even Marco Polo. It was hard to find his family home in Venice, there's barely any mention of it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:53:22 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:51:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:50:25 AM
I may not be the biggest Jefferson fan, but calling him out on his spelling seems petty.

They are both correct -_-

:)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:54:50 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 08:52:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM


That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It is odd, and not just Columbus. Cabot, Vespucci, Verrazzano, Pigafetta and Cadamosto are all fairly prominent explorers, but I've never seen a monument for any of them.
Come to think of it, not even Marco Polo. It was hard to find his family home in Venice, there's barely any mention of it.

No one is an explorer in his own land.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 09:05:34 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:54:50 AM

No one is an explorer in his own land.

They do tend to implore back home.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 10, 2020, 09:16:58 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 08:52:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM


That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It is odd, and not just Columbus. Cabot, Vespucci, Verrazzano, Pigafetta and Cadamosto are all fairly prominent explorers, but I've never seen a monument for any of them.
Come to think of it, not even Marco Polo. It was hard to find his family home in Venice, there's barely any mention of it.

Well, Verrazzano has a big-ass important bridge named after him.  And Vespucci has a couple continents named after him.

It is a pity though that we don't have more stuff named after Pigafetta.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 09:27:56 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 08:52:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It is odd, and not just Columbus. Cabot, Vespucci, Verrazzano, Pigafetta and Cadamosto are all fairly prominent explorers, but I've never seen a monument for any of them.
Come to think of it, not even Marco Polo. It was hard to find his family home in Venice, there's barely any mention of it.

It might have to do with all those explorers being in the service of other European powers, on whose behalf they performed their explorations (Columbus and Pigafetta for Spain, Verrazzano for France, Cabot for England, Vespucci for Spain and Portugal, Cadamosto for Portugal), in Italy this might be seen as bitter-sweet, in the sense of "look at all our talented navigators, all in the service of foreign powers". If they had been exploring for Genoa or Venice the tune might have been different. In any case I guess they're celebrated locally at least, and for sure they're celebrated in the countries they served and places they explored.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 09:36:02 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 09:27:56 AM


It might have to do with all those explorers being in the service of other European powers, on whose behalf they performed their explorations (Columbus and Pigafetta for Spain, Verrazzano for France, Cabot for England, Vespucci for Spain and Portugal, Cadamosto for Portugal), in Italy this might be seen as bitter-sweet, in the sense of "look at all our talented navigators, all in the service of foreign powers". If they had been exploring for Genoa or Venice the tune might have been different. In any case I guess they're celebrated locally at least, and for sure they're celebrated in the countries they served and places they explored.

That's true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2020, 09:39:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:36:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:33:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2020, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
AFAIK the figure of Columbus in the USA is mostly propped up by the Italian community since the late XIXth, early XXth century, right?

Probably. They traditionally are the ones carrying a torch for Columbus around here.

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It was a way for Italians to show how American they were so yeah I can see why that would not be as important for Italians in Italy.

Apparently the Richmond statue was put up in 1927 - the first in the South.

I'd also agree Columbus is a bit different from those that Tamas noted. At least in my childhood, Columbus was taught to us to be this awesome guy that was doubted by everyone. Only in high school did they start to talk at all about a more rounded picture of him and his brothers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Checking some stuff it seems that the Italian Navy had a whole destroyer class named after explorers during WWII, which included ships named after Cadamosto, Verrazzano and Pigafetta, amongst other lesser known explorers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigatori-class_destroyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigatori-class_destroyer)

Checking the bios of some of the lesser known ones (mostly involved in early exploration of Africa for Spain and Portugal), some of them are a bit out of the traditional mould. A Genoese one (Luca Tarigo) explored the Caspian Sea in the XIVth century sailing from Crimea (where Genoese trading outposts existed) and up the Don and Volga rivers. Two other Genoese ones (the Vivaldi brothers, Ugolino and Vandino) undertook in the XIIIth century the first expedition from the Mediterranean (they served the Republic of Genoa) out to the Atlantic and down the African Coast since the Roman Empire. Two other Venetian brothers (the Zenos, Nicolò and Antonio) were active in the North and Arctic seas in the late XIVth century and are the source of the Zeno Map, an alleged forgery that shows a supposed voyage of exploration to Iceland, Greenland and Nova Scotia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 10:00:15 AM
Some of them survive in folk medicine. For instance, rubbing Pigafetta on a rash has a soothing effect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 10:13:11 AM
Pigafetta is a bit overlooked as he wasn't an explorer per se. He joined the Magellan expedition as a chronicler, but he did perform an amazing job at that role and thanks to him we have a very detailed account of that expedition
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 10:18:45 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:09:03 AM
With Columbus everything he did besides navigating was extremely shady (I mean, he was even imprisoned in Spain after his 3rd expedition because of his mismanagement of Hispaniola and the atrocities he ordered as its governor), but his achievements as a navigator are undeniable.

Fun fact:  Columbus was a shit navigator and only survived the consequences of his stupidity because the Americas prevented him from sailing beyond the point of no return.

The myth about everyone but him believing the world was flat is laughable, but still widely believed.  Columbus's genius was in believing that the world was much smaller than it was known, beyond a doubt, to be.  That's why no one would back him, until he got to Spain, where there was a temporary budget surplus and the crown decided that they could use some of it to send a bunch of fools and the sweepings of their jails off to a convenient death in the western ocean.

The man was lucky, but otherwise had no significant redeeming qualities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Checking some stuff it seems that the Italian Navy had a whole destroyer class named after explorers during WWII, which included ships named after Cadamosto, Verrazzano and Pigafetta, amongst other lesser known explorers:


And the wonderfully named Antoniotto Usodimare.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 10, 2020, 10:22:57 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 10:18:45 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:09:03 AM
With Columbus everything he did besides navigating was extremely shady (I mean, he was even imprisoned in Spain after his 3rd expedition because of his mismanagement of Hispaniola and the atrocities he ordered as its governor), but his achievements as a navigator are undeniable.

Fun fact:  Columbus was a shit navigator and only survived the consequences of his stupidity because the Americas prevented him from sailing beyond the point of no return.

The myth about everyone but him believing the world was flat is laughable, but still widely believed.  Columbus's genius was in believing that the world was much smaller than it was known, beyond a doubt, to be.  That's why no one would back him, until he got to Spain, where there was a temporary budget surplus and the crown decided that they could use some of it to send a bunch of fools and the sweepings of their jails off to a convenient death in the western ocean.

The man was lucky, but otherwise had no significant redeeming qualities.
This is a perfect example of how sometimes people at the very top are not the smartest ones, but the most aggressive risk takers whose luck bailed out their stupidity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 10, 2020, 10:52:07 AM
Yeah he thought the world was like 1/2 to 2/3 smaller then it was. Portugal (so it is said anyway) said no because his calculations sucked (and they might have already known brazil was there, so why pay for an expedition to somewhere you know is there).

On the other side, he made it back home, so he had to at least be a decent navigator lol
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 10:57:30 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 09:05:34 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 08:54:50 AM

No one is an explorer in his own land.

They do tend to implore back home.

Okay, this made me laugh out loud. :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 10, 2020, 10:52:07 AM
Yeah he thought the world was like 1/2 to 2/3 smaller then it was. Portugal (so it is said anyway) said no because his calculations sucked (and they might have already known brazil was there, so why pay for an expedition to somewhere you know is there).

On the other side, he made it back home, so he had to at least be a decent navigator lol

He was a pretty good dead reckoning navigator, according to Morison one of the best.

All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
It's a good thing he didn't make it to his planned destination. Imagine if smallpox had reached China.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:08:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
It's a good thing he didn't make it to his planned destination. Imagine if smallpox had reached China.

Where do you think smallpox came from. :ph34r:

https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2020, 09:39:37 AM
Apparently the Richmond statue was put up in 1927 - the first in the South.

I'd also agree Columbus is a bit different from those that Tamas noted. At least in my childhood, Columbus was taught to us to be this awesome guy that was doubted by everyone. Only in high school did they start to talk at all about a more rounded picture of him and his brothers.
This is also true in the UK. Slave trading and empire building were not uncontroversial at the time - and that is an airbrushed version of history. There's a reason the first statue of Clive of India only went up in 1912.

I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:12:43 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:08:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
It's a good thing he didn't make it to his planned destination. Imagine if smallpox had reached China.

Where do you think smallpox came from. :ph34r:

https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html

;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.

There are very few individuals who have had such an impact on world history.  There's a reason 1492 is such a watershed event.

Now yes, a lot of negatives came from that, and Columbus himself had a lot of negatives about him.  But even when you point out that a lot of Columbus memorials came from the late 19th-early 20th Century by Italian-Americans as a way of connecting themselves to their new country - that history is worth remembering too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.

There are very few individuals who have had such an impact on world history.  There's a reason 1492 is such a watershed event.

Now yes, a lot of negatives came from that, and Columbus himself had a lot of negatives about him.  But even when you point out that a lot of Columbus memorials came from the late 19th-early 20th Century by Italian-Americans as a way of connecting themselves to their new country - that history is worth remembering too.

So tell those stories. Spread that history. Not the "Little Engine that Could" tale of the Great Explorer Columbus who refused to give up on his dream of proving the world is round.

In other words, stop making it about the man, and start making it about the impact. The entire impact, warts and all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:26:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.

There are very few individuals who have had such an impact on world history.  There's a reason 1492 is such a watershed event.

Now yes, a lot of negatives came from that, and Columbus himself had a lot of negatives about him.  But even when you point out that a lot of Columbus memorials came from the late 19th-early 20th Century by Italian-Americans as a way of connecting themselves to their new country - that history is worth remembering too.

So tell those stories. Spread that history. Not the "Little Engine that Could" tale of the Great Explorer Columbus who refused to give up on his dream of proving the world is round.

In other words, stop making it about the man, and start making it about the impact. The entire impact, warts and all.

Sure.  But the question is about the statues.

I say you put a plaque up explaining all that context, but leave the statues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

No, they were quite right.  Columbus's ships could never have reached China with anyone alive, even had they been able to pass by sea through the area that was actually occupied by the Americas.  China was something like 150 days away, and they didn't have water for more than about 100 days max.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:26:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.

There are very few individuals who have had such an impact on world history.  There's a reason 1492 is such a watershed event.

Now yes, a lot of negatives came from that, and Columbus himself had a lot of negatives about him.  But even when you point out that a lot of Columbus memorials came from the late 19th-early 20th Century by Italian-Americans as a way of connecting themselves to their new country - that history is worth remembering too.

So tell those stories. Spread that history. Not the "Little Engine that Could" tale of the Great Explorer Columbus who refused to give up on his dream of proving the world is round.

In other words, stop making it about the man, and start making it about the impact. The entire impact, warts and all.

Sure.  But the question is about the statues.

I say you put a plaque up explaining all that context, but leave the statues.

The statues make it about the man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2020, 11:31:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:26:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.

There are very few individuals who have had such an impact on world history.  There's a reason 1492 is such a watershed event.

Now yes, a lot of negatives came from that, and Columbus himself had a lot of negatives about him.  But even when you point out that a lot of Columbus memorials came from the late 19th-early 20th Century by Italian-Americans as a way of connecting themselves to their new country - that history is worth remembering too.

So tell those stories. Spread that history. Not the "Little Engine that Could" tale of the Great Explorer Columbus who refused to give up on his dream of proving the world is round.

In other words, stop making it about the man, and start making it about the impact. The entire impact, warts and all.

Sure.  But the question is about the statues.

I say you put a plaque up explaining all that context, but leave the statues.

The statues make it about the man.

Good point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

No, they were quite right.  Columbus's ships could never have reached China with anyone alive, even had they been able to pass by sea through the area that was actually occupied by the Americas.  China was something like 150 days away, and they didn't have water for more than about 100 days max.

Yes, of course. Brainfart   :blush:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

No, they were quite right.  Columbus's ships could never have reached China with anyone alive, even had they been able to pass by sea through the area that was actually occupied by the Americas.  China was something like 150 days away, and they didn't have water for more than about 100 days max.

:huh: Have you ever been at sea? Do you know what it's made of?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:41:12 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
The statues make it about the man.
I mentioned in the Brexit thread that I agree but I sort of am slightly with BBoy. I actually prefer using other public art instead of plaques to contest the legacies of these men. Surround them with their victims, cover their plinth in bones - now this has happened and he is toppled and in the dock I'd consider an installation around that moment too.

I found the earlier installation for World Slavery Day a few years ago really impressive - and if this was permanent, I think I'd be happy with the statue staying because of how they interact and how we view them:
(https://i2-prod.bristolpost.co.uk/incoming/article2123161.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/0_JB_BRI_181018Colston-01JPG.jpg)

I'd like us to be more inventive around this than just pulling statues down or putting up small context plaques won't read. I would like us to actively contest the public space - to subvert and confront these statues and the men they represent.

It may not work in every situation with the exception of the hilarious one in Nashville - I struggle to see any justification for having a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, say. Clive of India is one I am very unsure about because of how awful he and his legacy are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 10, 2020, 11:57:38 AM
By modern day standards, basically every society was terribly oppressive until very recent times. The dudes that got statues tended to be leaders of their societies, which will link all of them to oppression...it seems odd to say, "statues from 3000 BCE to say 1450 CE are cool, after that we will evaluate based on how directly oppressive the people were to people now considered marginalized, unless they are women in which case the statues are still cool".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 12:02:37 PM
I wish they had put up a Raoul Wallenberg statue in Stockholm. Instead they put up a monument to him colloquially known as "The Turds".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 12:22:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 10:18:45 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 08:09:03 AM
With Columbus everything he did besides navigating was extremely shady (I mean, he was even imprisoned in Spain after his 3rd expedition because of his mismanagement of Hispaniola and the atrocities he ordered as its governor), but his achievements as a navigator are undeniable.

Fun fact:  Columbus was a shit navigator and only survived the consequences of his stupidity because the Americas prevented him from sailing beyond the point of no return.

The myth about everyone but him believing the world was flat is laughable, but still widely believed.  Columbus's genius was in believing that the world was much smaller than it was known, beyond a doubt, to be.  That's why no one would back him, until he got to Spain, where there was a temporary budget surplus and the crown decided that they could use some of it to send a bunch of fools and the sweepings of their jails off to a convenient death in the western ocean.

The man was lucky, but otherwise had no significant redeeming qualities.

IIRC besides thinking that the world was much smaller (he followed the calculations of Marinus of Tyre, who thought that Earth was 17% smaller), he was also counting on Japan (or rather Zipango) to be much larger, and further to the southwest than it really is. This is for instance the first globe map of that time, in which Japan appears to be only slightly further west than the Canary Islands:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/MartinBehaim1492.png/800px-MartinBehaim1492.png)

There's also speculation about how much he might have known about the Atlantic trade winds and currents that make navigation between Europe and America much faster if properly exploited, that the Portuguese were already employing to move between their mainland and African and Atlantic posessions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 10, 2020, 10:52:07 AM
Yeah he thought the world was like 1/2 to 2/3 smaller then it was. Portugal (so it is said anyway) said no because his calculations sucked (and they might have already known brazil was there, so why pay for an expedition to somewhere you know is there).

On the other side, he made it back home, so he had to at least be a decent navigator lol

He was also rejected by Portugal (twice) because Portugal was already deep into exploring the African coast and had already received a positive confirmation from Bartolomeu Dias that Africa could be circumnavigated as he had already crossed the Cape of Good Hope by then. Columbus' calculations were rejected in every court he visited, not just in Portugal, as they went against all the science of the time, in fact he was also rejected by Spain on that basis before he was finally approved on a hunch by the kings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 12:35:15 PM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 10, 2020, 10:52:07 AM
Yeah he thought the world was like 1/2 to 2/3 smaller then it was. Portugal (so it is said anyway) said no because his calculations sucked (and they might have already known brazil was there, so why pay for an expedition to somewhere you know is there).

On the other side, he made it back home, so he had to at least be a decent navigator lol

He was a pretty good dead reckoning navigator, according to Morison one of the best.

All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

The advisors were correct on their calculations, if America wasn't there Columbus' expedition would have failed, either disappearing at sea or via a successful mutiny. They simply didn't know that there was an additional continent in the world unaccounted for.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2020, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 10, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
I don't see much case for memorialising Columbus, personally. But I could be wrong.

There are very few individuals who have had such an impact on world history.  There's a reason 1492 is such a watershed event.

Now yes, a lot of negatives came from that, and Columbus himself had a lot of negatives about him.  But even when you point out that a lot of Columbus memorials came from the late 19th-early 20th Century by Italian-Americans as a way of connecting themselves to their new country - that history is worth remembering too.

So tell those stories. Spread that history. Not the "Little Engine that Could" tale of the Great Explorer Columbus who refused to give up on his dream of proving the world is round.

In other words, stop making it about the man, and start making it about the impact. The entire impact, warts and all.

Funnily enough, the myth that Columbus proved that the world was round rather than flat comes from Washington Irving's 1828 "A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus", which was massively successful in both Europe and America at that time, and in which real history and romantic fantasy get pretty mixed up.

Regarding making it about the impact rather than the man, that's how most historiography in the last few decades has analyzed the topic, at least over here.

Edit: Damn, 4 messages in a row, time to take a break.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 10, 2020, 12:44:20 PM
The claim that Columbus proved that the world was round always bothered me. Not just because a round Earth was accepted at the time. However, if the flat Earth idea had been the prevalent world view, his discovery of new lands in the west (which he still considered to be India) would only have shown that the disc might be larger than previous thought to account for the additional continent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 10, 2020, 02:55:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 10, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
In other words, stop making it about the man, and start making it about the impact. The entire impact, warts and all.

Yeah, heaven forbid we feel good about something every once in a while :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 10, 2020, 04:32:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

No, they were quite right.  Columbus's ships could never have reached China with anyone alive, even had they been able to pass by sea through the area that was actually occupied by the Americas.  China was something like 150 days away, and they didn't have water for more than about 100 days max.

:huh: Have you ever been at sea? Do you know what it's made of?

Water, water everywhere
And all the boards did shrink.
Water, water everywhere
Nor any drop to drink.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 10, 2020, 04:32:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 10, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

No, they were quite right.  Columbus's ships could never have reached China with anyone alive, even had they been able to pass by sea through the area that was actually occupied by the Americas.  China was something like 150 days away, and they didn't have water for more than about 100 days max.

:huh: Have you ever been at sea? Do you know what it's made of?

Water, water everywhere
And all the boards did shrink.
Water, water everywhere
Nor any drop to drink.

He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small
For the dear God who loveth us
He made and loveth all
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 10, 2020, 04:55:57 PM
From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 10, 2020, 04:55:57 PM
From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

Is this from one of the later versions? It was precisely the number of different versions that made me not memorize the entire thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 10, 2020, 05:27:10 PM
Way later version
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 11, 2020, 01:41:42 AM
A statue of Leopold II was removed in a Belgian town. Asked for comment, a passerby said "everybody makes mistakes".  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 03:39:26 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 11, 2020, 01:41:42 AM
A statue of Leopold II was removed in a Belgian town. Asked for comment, a passerby said "everybody makes mistakes".  :lol:
(https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/ee/e8/03/eee8035038e26ba891906acf68f64d66.jpg)
"We've colonised the Congo by mistake."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 11, 2020, 05:32:34 AM
There is still a Léopold II avenue in Paris. OTOH, there is a rue Saint-Just ending in a dead-end (LULZ) parallel to a cemetery. Coincidence?  :tinfoil:
No rue Robespierre before Valmy asks.

PS: some communal "association" called Black African Defense League (sic) called for removing Colbert statues. He is responsible for the Black Code, regulating the status of slaves, and is also the spiritual father of dirigisme , popular among French conservatives.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Kaeso on June 11, 2020, 06:22:55 AM
Le Temps (Francophone Swiss Newspaper) mentionned this article from La Libre Belgique :

Quote
Destruction of statues from the past: we must differentiate ourselves from the iconoclastic rage of the barbarians of Daesh

Posted on 09-06-2020 at 9:35 a.m. - Updated on 10-06-2020 at 12:30 p.m.

An opinion of Marco Gombacci, Italian journalist and political analyst, contributor to the newspaper "Il Giornale" and founder of "The European Post", special envoy to Iraq in 2016 and then to Syria in 2017 and 2018.

Iconoclastic fury must worry us. Let us differentiate a fair recognition of the faults of the past from the cancellation of all that has been its national history. Including with Léopold II.


The Black Lives Matter events have also been invited to Europe. Sadly, clashes and looting took place alongside thousands of peaceful demonstrators. The horrific assassination of George Floyd by the Minnesota police led to very justified protests, which however gave way to physical violence, as if one could think that racism could be combated by stealing Rolexes.

But there is another drift from these demonstrations that should worry us: iconoclastic fury. In Bristol, England, protesters shot the statue of Edward Colston (an 18th-century slave trader, editor's note) and threw it into the sea without police intervention. If the citizens of Bristol had wanted to remove the statue, they should have done so democratically and not by acts of vandalism which will go unpunished.

Also in the United Kingdom, the statue of Winston Churchill was covered with the inscription "racist". Perhaps the perpetrators of this massacre did not know that Sir Winston was the one who had fought and defeated Hitler and the Nazis, thereby restoring freedom to Europe. This same freedom thanks to which they can afford to demonstrate and vandalize the statues.

Belgium was also affected by the iconoclastic revolts: a group of demonstrators gathered around the statue of Leopold II in Brussels. The risk in Belgium is that anyone who tries to open a discussion on this subject risks being treated as racist or nostalgic for the colonial period of the end of the 19th century. While there are many Belgians who support the idea of ​​removing statues, there are just as many who recognize that Belgium's status among the more developed European nations also stems from its colonial past. Because it is always necessary to differentiate a right recognition of the faults of the past, of the cancellation of all that has been its national history.

This was unfortunately noted in the United States when it became fashionable to propose the removal of the statues of Christopher Columbus, guilty of having triggered the extermination of local populations, or of General Lee, commander-in-chief of the southern army during the American Civil War. The statue of Abraham Lincoln, the one who abolished slavery in 1863, was also vandalized by people who probably did not know who he was.

If we continue this historic exercise

Revising history is likely to be a dangerous exercise. If we were to take the analysis any further, we would have to take away the statues and honors of the Democratic President of the United States of America Woodrow Wilson, while he was blocking the enrollment of African Americans in the military. If we continue this historic exercise, we can see how the founder of Planned Parenthhood's abortion clinics, Margaret Sanger, was not a feminist but rather a promoter of abortion to reduce the black population in the United States. Continuing along this path could lead to the removal of the buildings erected during fascism in Italy. And why not break the Colosseum because we forced slaves to fight there, or destroy the pyramids because they were erected by these tyrants of pharaohs?

Recently, Islamic State jihadist fundamentalists have even been able to destroy the Roman temple of Palmyra in Syria, all the archaeological finds from Raqqa or Mosul, and countless churches they encountered on their path of destruction in order to erase the previous history of these lands. The heroes of the world today must not be footballers or influencers, but we must remember much more than Khaled al-Assad, the archaeologist of Palmyra decapitated by "black flags" who, although threatened with dead, did not reveal the location of some priceless objects, not from an economic point of view, but from a historical and cultural point of view for the whole world.

In memory of this great man and to differentiate us from those barbarians of Daesh who had as their primary goal to destroy all historic monuments in order to start a new propaganda story, we must remember how important it is not to erase history and what represents it, but keep it and study it thoroughly. It is the only way to face our past without ideological or even obscurantist debate. Even in the case of Leopold II.

(Marco Gombacci)In Iraq during the Mosul offensive in 2016, in Syria during the Battle of Raqqa in 2017 and in 2018 during the last battle at Deir Ezzor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 11, 2020, 06:39:03 AM
You have to be slightly obtuse to mix up the destruction of priceless heritage from ancient times and the removal of stuffy statues from, mostly, late XIXth, early XXth centuries with little artistic value by themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 11, 2020, 06:43:19 AM
If we destroy all of the stuffy XIXth and XXth statues of the recent past, how will they ever become the stuffy ancient priceless heritage for future generations several hundred years from now.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 06:50:14 AM
Moving controversial statues to museums would seem to satsify both sides, when you're talking about not destroying history. As for public spaces that people cannot choose to ignore not having statues that make people throw up in their mouths seems nice. That being said, it should take more than a flash mob to move statues, the rule of law is actually meaningful and protects people and it is worth defending. Also, there will always be people who hate some statues for all kinds of reasons, it's not enough that someone is deeply offended by a statue for society to decide to remove it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 11, 2020, 07:12:21 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 06:50:14 AM
Moving controversial statues to museums would seem to satsify both sides, when you're talking about not destroying history. As for public spaces that people cannot choose to ignore not having statues that make people throw up in their mouths seems nice. That being said, it should take more than a flash mob to move statues, the rule of law is actually meaningful and protects people and it is worth defending. Also, there will always be people who hate some statues for all kinds of reasons, it's not enough that someone is deeply offended by a statue for society to decide to remove it.

One added difficulty is that many of these statues are ones that people have wanted removed for years. Unfortunately though, there has been little political will to have them removed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 07:15:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 07:12:21 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 06:50:14 AM
Moving controversial statues to museums would seem to satsify both sides, when you're talking about not destroying history. As for public spaces that people cannot choose to ignore not having statues that make people throw up in their mouths seems nice. That being said, it should take more than a flash mob to move statues, the rule of law is actually meaningful and protects people and it is worth defending. Also, there will always be people who hate some statues for all kinds of reasons, it's not enough that someone is deeply offended by a statue for society to decide to remove it.

One added difficulty is that many of these statues are ones that people have wanted removed for years. Unfortunately though, there has been little political will to have them removed.

That is unfortunate. In a functioning democracy the will of the people is carried out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Gups on June 11, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 11, 2020, 05:32:34 AM
There is still a Léopold II avenue in Paris. OTOH, there is a rue Saint-Just ending in a dead-end (LULZ) parallel to a cemetery. Coincidence?  :tinfoil:
No rue Robespierre before Valmy asks.

PS: some communal "association" called Black African Defense League (sic) called for removing Colbert statues. He is responsible for the Black Code, regulating the status of slaves, and is also the spiritual father of dirigisme , popular among French conservatives.

Are Napoleon monuments getting any heat or would that be a sacred cow too far?

Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 11:56:08 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 11, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Are Napoleon monuments getting any heat or would that be a sacred cow too far?

Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.
Yep. Or Earl Grey because slaveholders were compensated (and it was an enormous amount) on abolition, but it feels harsh to tear his statue down for abolishing slavery in the wrong way.

Also Gladstone who was the son of a slaveholder, gave a pro-slavery maiden speech (in the 1830s), was pro-Confederacy in the 1860s, but is also someone who has a real arc from a stern unbending Tory, to introducing the secret ballot, legalising unions, universal schooling, fights against landlords, home rule in Ireland and generally being a radical old man in a hurry in the 1890s.

I'm more ambivalent about Baden-Powell, but that's probably because I find the Scouts creepy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:00:04 PM
It is all but impossible to end a forced labor system without compensation in peacetime. Grey did the necessary evil.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:03:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Huge statues kind of suck for museums. I personally think statues in public spaces are probably better as allegories, yeah. Just because using people to represent civic virtues gets tricky. No matter how committed said person was to said virtues they are still people with complications.

Liberty leading the people is probably a better symbol than some actual revolutionary figure leading the people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 11, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:03:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Huge statues kind of suck for museums. I personally think statues in public spaces are probably better as allegories, yeah. Just because using people to represent civic virtues gets tricky. No matter how committed said person was to said virtues they are still people with complications.

Liberty leading the people is probably a better symbol than some actual revolutionary figure leading the people.

Yep, agree with all of that. It would also help combat against some of the mythologizing we do to figures in the past (see: the Founding Fathers).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 11, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo  :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Gups on June 11, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.

Though I have some passing knowledge of Robert Peel, I've gone over his wiki page, and he seems almost impeccable even from a modern perspective.  Even on topics that would be frowned upon by today's standards (opposed to Catholic emancipation) - he eventually reversed himself and led the charge in favour of it.

Good grief.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 11, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo  :thumbsdown:

Heh. Though sometimes I get a little uncomfortable for how we make MLK the one man civil rights prophet when he was just one cog in a very large machine that comprised thousands of people. I think it creates the false narrative that we need to wait around for some great leader when in reality it was the efforts of thousands over many decades that created the leader and the organization not the other way around, even if there is nothing specifically objectionable about MLK himself (ok there are a few things but nothing like also being responsible for genocide or something).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 11, 2020, 12:19:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 11, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo  :thumbsdown:

I'd be happy to replace some of them with white women. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 12:19:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 11, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo  :thumbsdown:

I'd be happy to replace some of them with white women. :)

Robert E Lee's daughters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 11, 2020, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Heh. Though sometimes I get a little uncomfortable for how we make MLK the one man civil rights prophet when he was just one cog in a very large machine that comprised thousands of people. I think it creates the false narrative that we need to wait around for some great leader when in reality it was the efforts of thousands over many decades that created the leader and the organization not the other way around, even if there is nothing specifically objectionable about MLK himself.
I was just thinking today how the current BLM movement doesn't center around any one person like MLK. I personally like that because I hate cults of personality, but I think also objectively that's a positive. It makes the movement more resilient.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:25:01 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 11, 2020, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Heh. Though sometimes I get a little uncomfortable for how we make MLK the one man civil rights prophet when he was just one cog in a very large machine that comprised thousands of people. I think it creates the false narrative that we need to wait around for some great leader when in reality it was the efforts of thousands over many decades that created the leader and the organization not the other way around, even if there is nothing specifically objectionable about MLK himself.
I was just thinking today how the current BLM movement doesn't center around any one person like MLK. I personally like that because I hate cults of personality, but I think also objectively that's a positive. It makes the movement more resilient.

The flip side though is that without leadership, these kind of mass movements lack any kind of strategic thought and risk getting caught up in extremist ideology(like Defund the Police).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:26:24 PM
I think it's a strength and weakness.

From a UK perspective I feel like we could do with more statues of scientists and women. We are very bad at honouring those groups compared to politicians, businessmen, writers etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 11, 2020, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:25:01 PM

The flip side though is that without leadership, these kind of mass movements lack any kind of strategic thought and risk getting caught up in extremist ideology(like Defund the Police).
That's not really an ideology though. It's more like a loose collection of ideas, some of which are fairly extreme while others are very pragmatic. I think that such a structure is pretty much ideal for a protest movement.

I think only allowing strategic ideas severely limits the kinds of ideas we encounter, and not in a good way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:39:32 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:26:24 PM
I think it's a strength and weakness.

From a UK perspective I feel like we could do with more statues of scientists and women. We are very bad at honouring those groups compared to politicians, businessmen, writers etc.

Really? Huh. I guess I just figured your country was covered with Victoria, Elizabeth I, and Margaret Thatcher stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:45:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:39:32 PM
Really? Huh. I guess I just figured your country was covered with Victoria, Elizabeth I, and Margaret Thatcher stuff.
There's loads of Victoria. I can't think of any of Elizabeth but I'm sure there'll be a few (and this does just reflect that statuemania is a very 19th/20th century thing with very 19th/20th century cultural values.

I think there's one of Maggie in Parliament and maybe one in her hometown :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:46:40 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:26:24 PM
I think it's a strength and weakness.

From a UK perspective I feel like we could do with more statues of scientists and women. We are very bad at honouring those groups compared to politicians, businessmen, writers etc.

Just as a general trend in art though we've really gotten away from portraiture and realistic statues.


I mentioned the Edmonton neighborhood of Oliver yesterday.  Last night on Twitter I came across a list of the "top 20 Most Racist and Problematic Place Names in Edmonton".  Oliver was mentioned.  But who else was mentioned?

Winston Churchill (I trust you know why)

John Cabot (for introducing disease to first nations)

Phillip Primose, founding member of the NWMP (precursor to the RCMP, because the force was "created specifically to control, police and dispossess Indigenous people in order for white people to settle western Canada. ")

Matthew Blackwood (for the crime of being police chief when the police were investigating and charging homosexuals)

WD Ferris (for the offence of being a member of the Imperial Order of Daughters of the Empire - not a founder, just being a member)

Robert Rundle (for being an early missionary to First Nations, since "Christian missionaries laid the foundation for Canada's residential school system"

Anything named after a King or Queen (since the British Empire committed atrocities)

Anything named after the Famous Five (since despite being famed advocates for the rights of women, they were also in favour of eugenics)

https://www.theprogressreport.ca/edmonton_s_top_20_most_racist_and_problematic_place_names

:x
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 11, 2020, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:25:01 PM

The flip side though is that without leadership, these kind of mass movements lack any kind of strategic thought and risk getting caught up in extremist ideology(like Defund the Police).
That's not really an ideology though. It's more like a loose collection of ideas, some of which are fairly extreme while others are very pragmatic. I think that such a structure is pretty much ideal for a protest movement.

I think only allowing strategic ideas severely limits the kinds of ideas we encounter, and not in a good way.

One of the big slogans amongst conservatives was that "Ideas have consequences" (or at least it used to be big).

It's true, but only so far s you start to have means to put those ideas into action.  Conservatives and libertarians can have all the think-tanks in the world coming up with all kinds of brilliant policy ideas, but it means nothing if it can't be brought into policy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:50:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:46:40 PMJust as a general trend in art though we've really gotten away from portraiture and realistic statues.
Yes. As indicated by the Ronaldo in Madeira, Lucille Ball and this amazing statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Nashville:
(https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzLzEzODRiZTY1NGY0MzY1MzRmM18xOTU3ODYyOThfZjIxM2UwNmRhMF9vLmpwZyJdLFsicCIsImNvbnZlcnQiLCIiXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiLXF1YWxpdHkgODEgLWF1dG8tb3JpZW50Il0sWyJwIiwidGh1bWIiLCI3ODB4NTIwIyJdXQ/195786298_f213e06da0_o.jpg)

Edit: Incidentally big fan of the proposal to rename one of those military bases after Daniel Inouye.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 12:54:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:50:41 PM
Edit: Incidentally big fan of the proposal to rename one of those military bases after Daniel Inouye.

A captain?! :o

I don't think the army brass would stand for it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 11, 2020, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:48:39 PMConservatives and libertarians can have all the think-tanks in the world coming up with all kinds of brilliant policy ideas, but it means nothing if it can't be brought into policy.
True, but you can't put ideas into policy that haven't been formulated either.

I don't think we have a shortage of people and organizations willing to put forward policy based on accepted ideas.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 11, 2020, 02:17:11 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 11, 2020, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:48:39 PMConservatives and libertarians can have all the think-tanks in the world coming up with all kinds of brilliant policy ideas, but it means nothing if it can't be brought into policy.
True, but you can't put ideas into policy that haven't been formulated either.

I don't think we have a shortage of people and organizations willing to put forward policy based on accepted ideas.


That's not really the problem.  I'll use a recent right-wing example: Abolish the Affordable Care Act.  While almost all conservatives agreed on getting rid of the Act, but beyond that they didn't agree on anything.  Due to the scattershot approach of the tea party, politicians had made all sorts of conflicting promises and when they had the chance to remove the act they couldn't get the votes.  Message Discipline is important.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 11, 2020, 02:31:36 PM
Quote from: Gups on June 11, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 11, 2020, 05:32:34 AM
There is still a Léopold II avenue in Paris. OTOH, there is a rue Saint-Just ending in a dead-end (LULZ) parallel to a cemetery. Coincidence?  :tinfoil:
No rue Robespierre before Valmy asks.

PS: some communal "association" called Black African Defense League (sic) called for removing Colbert statues. He is responsible for the Black Code, regulating the status of slaves, and is also the spiritual father of dirigisme , popular among French conservatives.

Are Napoleon monuments getting any heat or would that be a sacred cow too far?


Not the monuments yet, but Napoleon reinstated slavery for his Joséphine and planters so I would not be surprised if the issue flares up later.

PS: just checked again, and saw the above mentioned communal organisation threatened on Twitter ( :D) to desecrate statues of Napoléon and De Gaulle as well.
France being " totalitarian, terrorist, a slave state and colonialist" according to them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Didn't DeGaulle risk his life to give Algeria independence and set free most of France's colonies? I guess there is just no pleasing some people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 02:54:08 PM
They're not coming for my Barbie dolls, are they?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 11, 2020, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 02:54:08 PM
They're not coming for my Barbie dolls, are they?


Only if they are Klaus Barbie dolls.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
Even those are ok. What inanimate objects you use for pleasure in the privacy of your own home are fine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 11, 2020, 03:20:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Didn't DeGaulle risk his life to give Algeria independence and set free most of France's colonies? I guess there is just no pleasing some people.

Could be the "neocolonialism" after "formal" independences or https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchiment_des_troupes_coloniales (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchiment_des_troupes_coloniales). Hypotheses, but I heard the latter from some young black dude still pissed of at De Gaulle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 11, 2020, 03:28:52 PM
I am curious how quickly this fervour about statues will turn into a Puritanism level madness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2020, 03:34:33 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 11, 2020, 03:28:52 PM
I am curious how quickly this fervour about statues will turn into a Puritanism level madness.

It comes and goes. I mean it is not really about the statues after all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 04:54:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2020, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 02:54:08 PM
They're not coming for my Barbie dolls, are they?


Only if they are Klaus Barbie dolls.

You don't have to go straight to the punchline you know. I was going for a joke in three acts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 11, 2020, 05:13:23 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 04:54:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2020, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2020, 02:54:08 PM
They're not coming for my Barbie dolls, are they?


Only if they are Klaus Barbie dolls.

You don't have to go straight to the punchline you know. I was going for a joke in three acts.



:D  Sorry about that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 11, 2020, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 11, 2020, 12:50:41 PM
Edit: Incidentally big fan of the proposal to rename one of those military bases after Daniel Inouye.

Need to find two bases close together  - name one for him and one for Dole.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 12, 2020, 03:44:49 AM
Statue defacing in Portugal as well. Choice leaves me baffled.
https://www.publico.pt/2020/06/11/politica/noticia/descolonizacao-estatua-padre-antonio-vieira-vandalizada-lisboa-1920272 (https://www.publico.pt/2020/06/11/politica/noticia/descolonizacao-estatua-padre-antonio-vieira-vandalizada-lisboa-1920272)

Padre António Vieira, a Jesuit, not a Bandeirante slaver, pro-natives as against their enslavement, and actually one of the few who stood against the Inquisition and the discrimination against New Christians, mostly crypto-Jews (in Portugal).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_Vieira (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Vieira)

The "decolonize" defacing does not make much sense as well:

(https://bordalo.observador.pt/1000x,q85/https://s3.observador.pt/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/11185808/whatsapp-image-2020-06-11-at-18-42-01_770x433_acf_cropped.jpeg)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 03:48:27 AM
Ignorant mob rules.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 03:53:24 AM
The police say it was a suicide. Really? A young black man hung from a tree near a city hall?  :hmm:

https://twitter.com/KingCuh/status/1271308483736924160

QuoteTHERE WAS A BLACK MALE FOUND HANGING FROM A TREE IN PALMDALE THIS MORNING AND AINT NOBODY SAYING SHIT.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7fgB0m_y2I
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 12, 2020, 04:20:36 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 12, 2020, 03:44:49 AM
Statue defacing in Portugal as well. Choice leaves me baffled.
https://www.publico.pt/2020/06/11/politica/noticia/descolonizacao-estatua-padre-antonio-vieira-vandalizada-lisboa-1920272 (https://www.publico.pt/2020/06/11/politica/noticia/descolonizacao-estatua-padre-antonio-vieira-vandalizada-lisboa-1920272)

Padre António Vieira, a Jesuit, not a Bandeirante slaver, pro-natives as against their enslavement, and actually one of the few who stood against the Inquisition and the discrimination against New Christians, mostly crypto-Jews (in Portugal).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_Vieira (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Vieira)

The "decolonize" defacing does not make much sense as well:

(https://bordalo.observador.pt/1000x,q85/https://s3.observador.pt/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/11185808/whatsapp-image-2020-06-11-at-18-42-01_770x433_acf_cropped.jpeg)

Obviously someone who disagrees strongly with anti-slavery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 04:30:07 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 03:53:24 AM
The police say it was a suicide. Really? A young black man hung from a tree near a city hall?  :hmm:

https://twitter.com/KingCuh/status/1271308483736924160

QuoteTHERE WAS A BLACK MALE FOUND HANGING FROM A TREE IN PALMDALE THIS MORNING AND AINT NOBODY SAYING SHIT.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7fgB0m_y2I

Actually, this was in California, my mistake.

Seems to be something in the air there.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-07/noose-teacher-photo-investigation

QuoteFour elementary school teachers who were placed on leave after a photo of them smiling and holding a noose circulated on social media were not motivated by racism and were unaware of the pain and hurt it would cause the Palmdale School District community, an investigator concluded in a new report.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 05:16:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 03:53:24 AM
The police say it was a suicide. Really? A young black man hung from a tree near a city hall?  :hmm:

https://twitter.com/KingCuh/status/1271308483736924160

QuoteTHERE WAS A BLACK MALE FOUND HANGING FROM A TREE IN PALMDALE THIS MORNING AND AINT NOBODY SAYING SHIT.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7fgB0m_y2I

Some people want to be talked about after they're gone. :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Gups on June 12, 2020, 06:32:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 11, 2020, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Gups on June 11, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.

Though I have some passing knowledge of Robert Peel, I've gone over his wiki page, and he seems almost impeccable even from a modern perspective.  Even on topics that would be frowned upon by today's standards (opposed to Catholic emancipation) - he eventually reversed himself and led the charge in favour of it.

Good grief.

He's a bit overlooked these days but I'd put him as the greatest peacetime prime minister we've ever had.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 06:44:03 AM
Stephen Miller's working that calendar with a bunch of charts and reference materials like a cult member trying to plan the conception of the antichrist.

https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1271403162063208449

QuotePresident Trump's planned convention speech in Jacksonville, Florida, on Aug. 27 falls on the city's 60th anniversary of a brutal KKK-orchestrated attack on black activists known as "Ax Handle Saturday."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 07:04:44 AM
Every day is the anniversary of something.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 12, 2020, 07:13:27 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/12/boris-johnson-says-removing-statues-is-to-lie-about-our-history-george-floyd

QuoteBoris Johnson has said removing statues of controversial figures is "to lie about our history", as he argued that national protests in the wake of the death of George Floyd in the US had been taken over by extremists.

In a lengthy Twitter thread in response to to the boarding up of the Cenotaph in Whitehall and Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament Square, the prime minister expressed anger at the targeting of monuments.

Scaffolding was erected around the Churchill statue, the Cenotaph on Whitehall and statues of George Washington and King James II on Trafalgar Square late on Thursday evening on the order of the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, amid concerns they could be targeted by protesters and become a focal point for unrest.

Black Lives Matters organisers have called off a planned protest in Hyde Park on Saturday, warning that "many hate groups" from the far right were threatening the safety of those planning to attend.

Johnson claimed that the Black Lives Matters protests "have been sadly hijacked by extremists intent on violence", and he said attacks on police last weekend were "intolerable" and "abhorrent".

He said: "We all understand the legitimate feelings of outrage at what happened in Minnesota and the legitimate desire to protest against discrimination. Whatever progress this country has made in fighting racism – and it has been huge – we all recognise that there is much more work to do."

But on the campaigns to remove statues and other monuments honouring slave-owners and imperialist figures following the toppling of a statue of Edward Colston in Bristol on Sunday, Johnson made it clear he opposed such moves.

"We cannot now try to edit or censor our past," he said. "We cannot pretend to have a different history. The statues in our cities and towns were put up by previous generations. They had different perspectives, different understandings of right and wrong. But those statues teach us about our past, with all its faults. To tear them down would be to lie about our history, and impoverish the education of generations to come."

Johnson said it was "absurd and shameful" that Churchill's statue had to be protected, calling it "a permanent reminder of his achievement in saving this country – and the whole of Europe – from a fascist and racist tyranny."

He added: "Yes, he sometimes expressed opinions that were and are unacceptable to us today, but he was a hero, and he fully deserves his memorial."

:zzz
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 07:04:44 AM
Every day is the anniversary of something.

Yeah, if you're looking at the entire nation, but not if you're just looking at one city.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 07:39:14 AM
As some of you said earlier, what would be welcome is a general move away from deifying humans, and instead erecting statues commemorating principles or events.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 07:04:44 AM
Every day is the anniversary of something.

Yeah, if you're looking at the entire nation, but not if you're just looking at one city.

What makes you think Stephen Miller decides when the GOP hold their convention?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 12, 2020, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 10:04:39 AM
What makes you think Stephen Miller decides when the GOP hold their convention?

Well, there could certainly be someone saying "You know, given the present times, maybe this isn't a good thing."  Of course, there is nobody in the Administration who cares.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 12, 2020, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 07:39:14 AM
As some of you said earlier, what would be welcome is a general move away from deifying humans, and instead erecting statues commemorating principles or events.

Personified principles sure tend to have better tits than historical leaders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
I think we're so hyping down Trump's upcoming speech that when the time actually comes, even calling for a genocide would beat expectations and thus not sound so bad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 11:51:44 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
I think we're so hyping down Trump's upcoming speech that when the time actually comes, even calling for a genocide would beat expectations and thus not sound so bad.

I hope there will be a "some of my best friends are black" line.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 12, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 11:51:44 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
I think we're so hyping down Trump's upcoming speech that when the time actually comes, even calling for a genocide would beat expectations and thus not sound so bad.

I hope there will be a "some of my best friends are black" line.
He already did a roundtable with some of his black friends :lol: :bleeding:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 12, 2020, 12:08:12 PM
He already said he's the president who did the most for blacks except, maybe, Lincoln.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 12, 2020, 12:23:59 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 12, 2020, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 07:04:44 AM
Every day is the anniversary of something.

Yeah, if you're looking at the entire nation, but not if you're just looking at one city.

What makes you think Stephen Miller decides when the GOP hold their convention?

I think it's silly to think that he doesn't have input on where it's held. Had that been held somewhere else, it wouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 02:53:24 PM
So my department issued standardized face masks to all civilian and military LE. Can you guess what color?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 02:53:24 PM
So my department issued standardized face masks to all civilian and military LE. Can you guess what color?

Chartreuse?  Vermillion?  Aquamarine?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2020, 03:03:03 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 02:53:24 PM
So my department issued standardized face masks to all civilian and military LE. Can you guess what color?

Gold?

(https://images.maskworld.com/is/image/maskworld/mw-product-zoom/venetian-carnival-mask-gold--mw-132005-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 03:03:43 PM
Nope
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 03:04:44 PM
Blue?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 12, 2020, 03:05:24 PM
Red with a blue cross and white stars? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 12, 2020, 03:08:31 PM
Mauve?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 03:11:22 PM
White
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2020, 03:14:33 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 03:11:22 PM
White

Nice

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-13CKAKXQN24%2FUhLNuF0FOXI%2FAAAAAAAAE-M%2FILQRwnMSCH0%2Fs1600%2FSW-153%2BStormtrooper%2BHelmet%2B%25281%2529.jpg&hash=e0e31536be9abb88fd57c301bcb721cfa3526f1b)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:23:06 PM
The color of surrender!

Or of white supremacy!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
Us Government: Socially retarded since 1775.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:23:06 PM
The color of surrender!

Or of white supremacy!

Depends on your perception.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
I really don't see the big deal.  Basic white. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 12, 2020, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
I really don't see the big deal.  Basic white.

Most other times, you are correct. Right now? A little tone (ha!) deaf.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2020, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
I really don't see the big deal.  Basic white.

Most other times, you are correct. Right now? A little tone (ha!) deaf.

Exactly
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 04:47:13 PM
Didn't the Nazis like to wear black?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 04:53:39 PM
It's a fucking facemask.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 05:14:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 04:53:39 PM
It's a fucking facemask.

:lol:

Is it?

All the same style, all the same cloth material, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2020, 05:27:54 PM
Are wedding dresses white power statements as well? What about doctors wearing these white gowns?

Was the Waffen SS actually pro race equality?

Come on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 12, 2020, 05:28:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
I really don't see the big deal.  Basic white. 

Wow, harsh. Just because you don't agree with him does t mean you have to call him a basic white.



:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:03:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2020, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
I really don't see the big deal.  Basic white.

Most other times, you are correct. Right now? A little tone (ha!) deaf.
Horrible. I'm sure George Floyd would have felt better if the police officer choking him  had had a black mask.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.karnival-house.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fstar-wars-darth-vader-face-mask38157.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)


Please, let's not get carried away.  It's just a stupid mask.  No matter the color, some people are going to find it offensive.

You guys are going way too far on this whole outrage thing:
Tech industry has an ugly master-slave problem (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/)

Quote
The tech industry should also commit to barring master/slave terminology in all future software — and hardware. The outdated convention is not just a software problem. Hard drives, depending on how they are used, are often categorized into masters and slaves. The large data storage company Seagate offers online help on how to "troubleshoot master/slave problems." If they haven't already done it, U.S. companies should start such troubleshooting now.

Many tech companies publicize their interest in hiring from underrepresented groups, but what signal do they send by using "master" and "slave" in their source code? The companies should redouble efforts to recruit black employees, set up tech training centers and offer free coding programs in black communities — and get rid of repellent terminology.

I'm sure it came to the mind of Ahmaud Arbery while he was fighting for his life "Dammit! If only Seagate hadn't used Master&slave for their drives 20 years ago, I wouldn't be in this mess today".  :roll:

[sigh].

Focus on the basics:
police brutality, to start with something.  Police brutality against blacks, hispanics, whites, reds, pinks, greens and blues.
unequal access to housing next, try avoiding all these ghettoes in modern cities, with modern highways enforcing some past racial divide line.
Once it's done, try your hands at solving the school problem you have.
After that, clean religion of your politics, so no one will claim God intended the White man to be the superior one.  That'll solve a lot of equality problems.
Once it's all being taken care of, you can think of shooting on sight anyone waiving a Confederate battle flage and dropping bombs on the statues.
And lastly, you can think of the color of masks, try to avoid pink (gay), black (cultural appropriation), brown (need I say why?), yellow (racist), red (Redskins was racist, so any red mask would be), white (duh, tone deaf anyday of the week!), blue (color of suffocation - you don't want to send the wrong message here), green (reserved for the tree huggers).  Anything else could be acceptable, but not rainbow, it's already used for something else.

Priorities people, priorities.  God did not make the Earth in 1 day, after all. Don't try to remake it as heaven in 1 day.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:33:08 PM
The city that actually got rid of the police (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/the-city-that-actually-got-rid-of-the-police/ar-BB15paDz?li=AAggNb9)

QuoteThe reforms carry lessons for what it takes to transform the police in any city. They ultimately amounted to nothing less than a reboot of the culture of policing in Camden, changing the way every beat cop in the city did his or her job. And they also required enough political will at the top—all the way to the governor—to survive opposition from police unions and some residents. The case of Camden shows that if there's enough motivation to blow it all up and start over from both the top and the bottom, reforming a police force is achievable.
[...]
But nothing is as simple as it sounds in a tweet. While largely a success story, the overhaul was by no means a clear win for social-justice progressives who are driving the police-reform debate nationally. The Camden police reform was—and remains—politically divisive. In part that was because union contracts were thrown out, leaving many on the force earning a lower salary and with fewer benefits. And it required very strange bedfellows to succeed—an all-powerful Democratic machine, a Republican governor, conservative budget-cutters and progressive police thinkers, all aligned to break an established department and start over.
[...]
Without the restrictions of the union, proponents argued, more cops could be put on the streets of Camden, and hopefully, the city's deadly spiral could finally be stopped.
[...]
In May 2013, the Camden City Council approved resolutions that eliminated the city police department and established a new one under county control. The remaining city cops were all laid off and had to reapply to work with the county, under far less generous nonunion contracts.
[...]
Those who championed the disbandment of the department say the upheaval was critical to the department's ultimate success. Scott Thomson, the Camden police chief at the time, had locked horns with the police union for years over contracts and virtually "any type" of managerial decision, he says.

"I was able to do in three days what would normally take me three years to do," he said. "All of the barriers were removed. I was now driving on a paved road."

hmm... unions impeding changes for the better... how evil of Camden to disband a troublesome union! ;)

Less pay = more cops on the streets.  However, with less pay&benefits comes the high rotation of police officers who find better conditions elsewhere.

But I'm absolutely certain all progressive, especially all the supporters of AOC and the Bernie Bros will agree that disbanding a strong public union and reducing wages is for the best...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 06:52:20 PM
So Camden has no police as the link text states...odd.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 07:02:19 PM
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous

Camden 10th most dangerous city. I guess that's something so, good job Camden.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 12, 2020, 05:28:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
I really don't see the big deal.  Basic white. 

Wow, harsh. Just because you don't agree with him does t mean you have to call him a basic white.



:P

:o

Still, one step up from powhite.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 12, 2020, 08:01:58 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 07:02:19 PM
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous

Camden 10th most dangerous city. I guess that's something so, good job Camden.  :rolleyes:

67 murders the last year of the union cops (2012), 23 in your expert neighborhood scout report.  So, indeed, good job, Camden.  :lol:

Plus, the force is twice as large, but had less than half the complaints of excessive use of force by police in 2017 than in 2012.

Still a lily-white force in a city with a 6% white population, though, so these improvements haven't made much of a difference in recruiting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:03:39 PM
You guys are going way too far on this whole outrage thing:
Tech industry has an ugly master-slave problem (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/)

Quote
The tech industry should also commit to barring master/slave terminology in all future software — and hardware. The outdated convention is not just a software problem. Hard drives, depending on how they are used, are often categorized into masters and slaves. The large data storage company Seagate offers online help on how to "troubleshoot master/slave problems." If they haven't already done it, U.S. companies should start such troubleshooting now.

Many tech companies publicize their interest in hiring from underrepresented groups, but what signal do they send by using "master" and "slave" in their source code? The companies should redouble efforts to recruit black employees, set up tech training centers and offer free coding programs in black communities — and get rid of repellent terminology.

I'm sure it came to the mind of Ahmaud Arbery while he was fighting for his life "Dammit! If only Seagate hadn't used Master&slave for their drives 20 years ago, I wouldn't be in this mess today".  :roll:

[sigh].

:bleeding: Good God!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2020, 08:29:54 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:33:08 PM
hmm... unions impeding changes for the better... how evil of Camden to disband a troublesome union! ;)

Less pay = more cops on the streets.  However, with less pay&benefits comes the high rotation of police officers who find better conditions elsewhere.

But I'm absolutely certain all progressive, especially all the supporters of AOC and the Bernie Bros will agree that disbanding a strong public union and reducing wages is for the best...

Well it is nice somebody is trying something a little different. We need experiments out there if we are going to find solutions.

Obviously I don't think much of public sector Unions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2020, 08:37:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:03:39 PM
Horrible. I'm sure George Floyd would have felt better if the police officer choking him  had had a black mask.

Generally I think the recent phenonemon of the police transitioning to black gear from blue was far more problematic. I guess maybe 11B4V was suggesting that the masks made them all look like white oppressors I don't know.

QuotePlease, let's not get carried away.  It's just a stupid mask.  No matter the color, some people are going to find it offensive.

Maybe. But it is not really about not offending people.

QuoteYou guys are going way too far on this whole outrage thing:

Somebody is always going write nonsense in papers and take things too far. I don't think 99% of the country is looking at the current sitaution is wringing their hands about the tech industry.

QuoteFocus on the basics:
police brutality, to start with something.  Police brutality against blacks, hispanics, whites, reds, pinks, greens and blues.
unequal access to housing next, try avoiding all these ghettoes in modern cities, with modern highways enforcing some past racial divide line.
Once it's done, try your hands at solving the school problem you have.
After that, clean religion of your politics, so no one will claim God intended the White man to be the superior one.  That'll solve a lot of equality problems.

Thank you for your input. Hey 11B4V was talking about law enforcement...interesting.

QuoteOnce it's all being taken care of, you can think of shooting on sight anyone waiving a Confederate battle flage and dropping bombs on the statues.

Dude it is not about you and quebec and separatism. Stop wringing your hands about it.

QuoteAnd lastly, you can think of the color of masks, try to avoid pink (gay), black (cultural appropriation), brown (need I say why?), yellow (racist), red (Redskins was racist, so any red mask would be), white (duh, tone deaf anyday of the week!), blue (color of suffocation - you don't want to send the wrong message here), green (reserved for the tree huggers).  Anything else could be acceptable, but not rainbow, it's already used for something else.

He was specifically talking about law enforcement uniforms. I don't get exactly where he was going with it but it was kind of related to the main issue.

QuotePriorities people, priorities.  God did not make the Earth in 1 day, after all. Don't try to remake it as heaven in 1 day.

Well this all started because a black man was murdered not because somebody waived a confederate flag. It is about law enforcement and the people do care about the most important things.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 08:39:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:03:39 PM
You guys are going way too far on this whole outrage thing:
Tech industry has an ugly master-slave problem (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/)

Quote
The tech industry should also commit to barring master/slave terminology in all future software — and hardware. The outdated convention is not just a software problem. Hard drives, depending on how they are used, are often categorized into masters and slaves. The large data storage company Seagate offers online help on how to "troubleshoot master/slave problems." If they haven't already done it, U.S. companies should start such troubleshooting now.

Many tech companies publicize their interest in hiring from underrepresented groups, but what signal do they send by using "master" and "slave" in their source code? The companies should redouble efforts to recruit black employees, set up tech training centers and offer free coding programs in black communities — and get rid of repellent terminology.

I'm sure it came to the mind of Ahmaud Arbery while he was fighting for his life "Dammit! If only Seagate hadn't used Master&slave for their drives 20 years ago, I wouldn't be in this mess today".  :roll:

[sigh].

:bleeding: Good God!  :rolleyes:

And in the Washington Post. :bleeding:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 08:41:42 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2020, 08:39:01 PM
And in the Washington Post. :bleeding:
Yes, that's the most disheartening part.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 13, 2020, 12:30:46 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)

It seems like many have already moved on? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 13, 2020, 03:05:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 12, 2020, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 12, 2020, 06:03:39 PM
You guys are going way too far on this whole outrage thing:
Tech industry has an ugly master-slave problem (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/)

Quote
The tech industry should also commit to barring master/slave terminology in all future software — and hardware. The outdated convention is not just a software problem. Hard drives, depending on how they are used, are often categorized into masters and slaves. The large data storage company Seagate offers online help on how to "troubleshoot master/slave problems." If they haven't already done it, U.S. companies should start such troubleshooting now.

Many tech companies publicize their interest in hiring from underrepresented groups, but what signal do they send by using "master" and "slave" in their source code? The companies should redouble efforts to recruit black employees, set up tech training centers and offer free coding programs in black communities — and get rid of repellent terminology.

I'm sure it came to the mind of Ahmaud Arbery while he was fighting for his life "Dammit! If only Seagate hadn't used Master&slave for their drives 20 years ago, I wouldn't be in this mess today".  :roll:

[sigh].

:bleeding: Good God!  :rolleyes:

It's Yale. I don't think anyone takes Yale seriously anymore.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 13, 2020, 03:09:10 AM
Saw this made the news. Bitch be tired. :lmfao: :angry:

https://www.indy100.com/article/woman-south-holland-illinois-racism-viral-video-9562616
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 13, 2020, 03:14:39 AM
Reminds me of the recent video of a lady woman person at a drive-through who was told the burger she wanted was out or something throwing a hissy fit and using the n-word. She was then told to leave at which point she cried and apologized and whined that she only wanted a burger so much.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 13, 2020, 03:18:01 AM
Master and slave hard drives: welcome to 1994!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 13, 2020, 03:20:27 AM
When he reaches drinking age and learns about BDSM it's gonna blow his fragile little mind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 13, 2020, 08:56:52 AM
I found this an interesting take on how things are developing in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/12/johnsons-culture-war-trap-seems-designed-for-corbyn-not-starmer

I've witnessed this a lot on my occasional forays into facebook looking at local groups, always a good place to keep track of what the troll farms are churning out. They're trying to turn this into a wedge issue where the left want to destroy all statues, are defacing war memorials (really fascinating what happened with the centopath, I hope CCTV was good enough to catch the responsible party) and hate St. Churchill.

Starmer with his moderate response of recognising the problems but condemning violence just isn't being drawn into it.

Incidentally

(https://preview.redd.it/bfg5l9k4mo451.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2573386d86195cf392a3d178fc096a8636ac4161)

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 14, 2020, 11:41:15 AM
Fox News ran digitally altered photos from Seattle (and a deliberately misidentified one). It took the Seattle Times' inquiry for Fox News to take them down.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/fox-news-runs-digitally-altered-images-in-coverage-of-seattles-protests-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2VFJuTbiyaIa6wcsTZlsIoNZH5xqaDXIXmYgp_0_WecwYsOjqFNrYX-Ok#Echobox=1592018356
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 14, 2020, 03:50:17 PM
Got to say. Things were looking iffy for a bit there. Seemed the BLM people had jumped the shark and turned the public against them with the horrible idea of crowd sourcing a statue list.
The far right have really saved things though. Apparently today they were out in force expecting a ruck, but failing to find and BLM protestors started attacking random people in the park instead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2020, 08:58:36 PM
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272177941519257600
QuoteAlbuquerque, NM: pre-protest so not assigning a number, but a reminder of how insanely violent cops have been for years

[CW: death]

A call was made about a homeless guy at a bus stop. An entire police squad shows up and wastes him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 14, 2020, 09:10:07 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2020, 08:58:36 PM

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272177941519257600 (https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272177941519257600)
QuoteAlbuquerque, NM: pre-protest so not assigning a number, but a reminder of how insanely violent cops have been for years

[CW: death]

A call was made about a homeless guy at a bus stop. An entire police squad shows up and wastes him.




Holy shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 14, 2020, 09:21:34 PM
That happened last August, who has been held accountable?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 15, 2020, 01:53:49 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2020, 08:58:36 PM
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272177941519257600
QuoteAlbuquerque, NM: pre-protest so not assigning a number, but a reminder of how insanely violent cops have been for years

[CW: death]

A call was made about a homeless guy at a bus stop. An entire police squad shows up and wastes him.

wtf. I'm surprised anyone still calls the police for anything, if these guys would then show up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 15, 2020, 02:31:30 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2020, 08:58:36 PM
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272177941519257600
QuoteAlbuquerque, NM: pre-protest so not assigning a number, but a reminder of how insanely violent cops have been for years

[CW: death]

A call was made about a homeless guy at a bus stop. An entire police squad shows up and wastes him.

Is that real? What was the official explanation given?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 02:41:23 AM
Wow. Well I'm never going back to the US. You guys have a real problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2020, 02:58:58 AM
I think this is the incident

https://www.abqjournal.com/1380152/apd-man-shot-by-officers-in-august-was-armed-with-bb-gun.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2020, 03:17:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 02:41:23 AM
Wow. Well I'm never going back to the US. You guys have a real problem.

We may shoot our own people but we bomb people in other countries.  You are screwed either way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 15, 2020, 03:48:56 AM
A video from Saturday. Thing with this one is it's tough to see how you write a rule against this sort of - it's just about culture.
https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1271832001364979716?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 15, 2020, 03:57:35 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2020, 02:58:58 AM
I think this is the incident

https://www.abqjournal.com/1380152/apd-man-shot-by-officers-in-august-was-armed-with-bb-gun.html

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 15, 2020, 06:24:38 AM
So this shooting in Atlanta seems to be a much less clear-cut case to me than the murder of Flloyd.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/rayshard-brooks-videos-final-moments/index.html


The victim who got shot by the police, was asleep in his car in a drivethru queue because he was so drunk. When he was to be arrested for driving under influence he struggled with the two officers, he grabbed on their tasers and fled, and according to the CNN article as I didn't watch that footage, he turns back and points the taser toward the chasing officer who in turn then shoots him.

Now, its fair to assume if the guy was a white middle-class looking drunk would have he been shot? Possibly not. But I am not sure what the police officer (who is being charged for homicide) was supposed to do. Get into a taser duel? Let the guy run off with a police taser?

I am not saying this surely wasn't a racist incident, but it is not a clear-cut case of murder like with Floyd.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 07:22:24 AM
:mellow:

Yes. He's supposed to let him run away. You don't kill someone over this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 15, 2020, 07:22:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2020, 06:24:38 AM
So this shooting in Atlanta seems to be a much less clear-cut case to me than the murder of Flloyd.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/rayshard-brooks-videos-final-moments/index.html


The victim who got shot by the police, was asleep in his car in a drivethru queue because he was so drunk. When he was to be arrested for driving under influence he struggled with the two officers, he grabbed on their tasers and fled, and according to the CNN article as I didn't watch that footage, he turns back and points the taser toward the chasing officer who in turn then shoots him.

Now, its fair to assume if the guy was a white middle-class looking drunk would have he been shot? Possibly not. But I am not sure what the police officer (who is being charged for homicide) was supposed to do. Get into a taser duel? Let the guy run off with a police taser?

I am not saying this surely wasn't a racist incident, but it is not a clear-cut case of murder like with Floyd.

He would have to be fairly close to use it, the police officer(s) could have shot him in the leg?
And if he had kept running off with a taser, I don't see how killing him would be acceptable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2020, 07:28:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2020, 06:24:38 AM
So this shooting in Atlanta seems to be a much less clear-cut case to me than the murder of Flloyd.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/rayshard-brooks-videos-final-moments/index.html


The victim who got shot by the police, was asleep in his car in a drivethru queue because he was so drunk. When he was to be arrested for driving under influence he struggled with the two officers, he grabbed on their tasers and fled, and according to the CNN article as I didn't watch that footage, he turns back and points the taser toward the chasing officer who in turn then shoots him.

Now, its fair to assume if the guy was a white middle-class looking drunk would have he been shot? Possibly not. But I am not sure what the police officer (who is being charged for homicide) was supposed to do. Get into a taser duel? Let the guy run off with a police taser?

I am not saying this surely wasn't a racist incident, but it is not a clear-cut case of murder like with Floyd.

It's just a tazer, let him run off and pick him up when he's sobered up or call in a few more of the boys and pile on him. No need to shoot him in the back.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:29:20 AM
I'm mostly on the side of bad shooting.  I say mostly because if the cop gets tasered the dead guy has access to the cop's weapon.  I'm glad it wasn't my call.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 15, 2020, 07:41:59 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:29:20 AM
I'm mostly on the side of bad shooting.  I say mostly because if the cop gets tasered the dead guy has access to the cop's weapon.  I'm glad it wasn't my call.

If the cop can't stay out of range from a drunk guy wielding a tazer ....
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 08:05:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 15, 2020, 07:41:59 AM
If the cop can't stay out of range from a drunk guy wielding a tazer ....

Maybe you're right.  Maybe the new protocol will have to be let the guy go if there's a chance the situation will possibly end in deadly force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2020, 08:44:57 AM
Bad shoot.

The cop did not shoot him because he was threatened with the taser, he shot him in the back after he started running away. Given the short range of a taser, letting him run away would in fact be the very best way to remove that as a immediate threat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2020, 08:46:47 AM
The bum on the bus bench was a tragic, but probably legitimate shooting. He had a gun, he reached for it when they told him to keep his hands clear, and they had reason to believe he was armed and a danger to others (several people had called in and said he was pointing a handgun at people).

Of course, it turned out to be a fucking BB gun made to look like a real gun (THAT should be fucking illegal right there), but you can't wait until he actually blows you away so you can be sure that a gun designed to look just like a deadly gun, is in fact a deadly gun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 08:49:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2020, 08:44:57 AM
Bad shoot.

The cop did not shoot him because he was threatened with the taser, he shot him in the back after he started running away. Given the short range of a taser, letting him run away would in fact be the very best way to remove that as a immediate threat.

He shot him after the taser was pointed at him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 08:50:29 AM
I get the logic that taser in suspect's hand may lead to a gun in suspect's hand, but that only works in 1-1 situations, and even then it's situational.  As a cop, you just have to take some risks to keep all people from your encounters alive.  Sometimes that means you let them take the first shot, if the alternative is to summarily execute anyone whose hands go where you don't like them going.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 08:50:29 AM
I get the logic that taser in suspect's hand may lead to a gun in suspect's hand, but that only works in 1-1 situations, and even then it's situational.  As a cop, you just have to take some risks to keep all people from your encounters alive.  Sometimes that means you let them take the first shot, if the alternative is to summarily execute anyone whose hands go where you don't like them going.

Would you be willing to take the other side of that deal?  Would you be willing to be a cop and let people take the first shot?  I sure as hell wouldn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 09:06:23 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 08:50:29 AM
I get the logic that taser in suspect's hand may lead to a gun in suspect's hand, but that only works in 1-1 situations, and even then it's situational.  As a cop, you just have to take some risks to keep all people from your encounters alive.  Sometimes that means you let them take the first shot, if the alternative is to summarily execute anyone whose hands go where you don't like them going.

Would you be willing to take the other side of that deal?  Would you be willing to be a cop and let people take the first shot?  I sure as hell wouldn't.
I wouldn't be willing to be a lot of things society needs, because I don't have the right temperament.  Military service, police service, being a bouncer, that's not for me.  So what? 

I'm not saying that you always let people take the first shot, I'm saying that you may have to make it more likely for currently unarmed people to take the first shot, by not allowing the cops to blow away anyone who needs to adjust their dick because it's stuck in a zipper.  Yes, by letting people to continue moving their hands where they shouldn't, maybe occasionally they'll produce a gun out of their hand, and occasionally they may get the first shot off compared to if you blew them away earlier.  However, when Daniel Shaver shoots are considered good shoots, we have a serious problem with where the balance is between officer safety and very basic human rights.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 15, 2020, 09:14:02 AM
Is there any police organization in the world which deals with these situations in a way that is considered best practice? If so, how do they deal with these situations? Copy their methods.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2020, 09:37:36 AM
QuoteDolly Parton statue may replace KKK leader memorial at Tennessee Capitol

Truly a much better bust.  :shifty:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 15, 2020, 09:38:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 15, 2020, 09:37:36 AM
QuoteDolly Parton statue may replace KKK leader memorial at Tennessee Capitol

Truly a much better bust.  :shifty:
Also I find it almost impossible to imagine a bigger upgrade in every possible respect :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 10:08:17 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 09, 2020, 02:52:55 PM

They've been told they're heroes for the past 20 years. Doing a dangerous job.

Driver/sales workers and truck drivers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 24.7 per 100,000 workers.

Police and sheriff's patrol officers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 14.6 per 100,000 workers.

So your pizza delivery guy is even more of a hero. Also they rarely choke black people to death on TV.

I agree that the police need to nut up and accept that their jobs have some danger, and that doesn't justify blasting away the general public any time a risk appears. I posted somewhere a study of police deaths in the US over time, and it is a much safer profession than it used to be.

But there is a flip side of this at the moment. The data is hard to come by (too many entities), but police kill somewhere around 300 black people a year. That is under 1 per 100,000. Obviously that doesn't consider that some of those killings are possibly justified.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

Recently, you get mass gatherings like this, in Paris, which is in another country and on another continent from the George Floyd killing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDWCQFBP/image.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 15, 2020, 10:12:01 AM
France has it's own racism problem too. American culture poisons everything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 10:08:17 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 09, 2020, 02:52:55 PM

They've been told they're heroes for the past 20 years. Doing a dangerous job.

Driver/sales workers and truck drivers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 24.7 per 100,000 workers.

Police and sheriff's patrol officers: Fatal injuries in 2016: 14.6 per 100,000 workers.

So your pizza delivery guy is even more of a hero. Also they rarely choke black people to death on TV.

I agree that the police need to nut up and accept that their jobs have some danger, and that doesn't justify blasting away the general public any time a risk appears. I posted somewhere a study of police deaths in the US over time, and it is a much safer profession than it used to be.

But there is a flip side of this at the moment. The data is hard to come by (too many entities), but police kill somewhere around 300 black people a year. That is under 1 per 100,000. Obviously that doesn't consider that some of those killings are possibly justified.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

Recently, you get mass gatherings like this, in Paris, which is in another country and on another continent from the George Floyd killing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDWCQFBP/image.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I don't understand your last paragraph. What's the relation to the rest of your post?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:26:08 AM
I don't understand your last paragraph. What's the relation to the rest of your post?

Sorry, I didn't think you needed to be spoon fed. How many covid deaths do you think will result from gatherings like the one pictured?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:46:24 AM
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your post?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:46:24 AM
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your post?

Sure it does.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 15, 2020, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2020, 08:46:47 AM

Of course, it turned out to be a fucking BB gun made to look like a real gun (THAT should be fucking illegal right there), but you can't wait until he actually blows you away so you can be sure that a gun designed to look just like a deadly gun, is in fact a deadly gun.

I wonder if it was actually an airsoft (small difference), they often get classed as "BB guns" but can look like the real thing.

And this also might be a sign of the times/loss of innocence.  I remember playing with water guns as a kid that could easily be mistaken for an authentic modern assault rifle today.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 15, 2020, 12:19:04 PM
Some day the cops may upgrade to Predator policing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsDci3A76N0
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 15, 2020, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 15, 2020, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2020, 08:46:47 AM

Of course, it turned out to be a fucking BB gun made to look like a real gun (THAT should be fucking illegal right there), but you can't wait until he actually blows you away so you can be sure that a gun designed to look just like a deadly gun, is in fact a deadly gun.

I wonder if it was actually an airsoft (small difference), they often get classed as "BB guns" but can look like the real thing.

And this also might be a sign of the times/loss of innocence.  I remember playing with water guns as a kid that could easily be mistaken for an authentic modern assault rifle today.

Up here in Canada, where handguns are tightly controlled, the bad guys on a lot of my files are carrying those fucking Airsofts.  Damn right that should be illegal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:46:24 AM
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your post?

Sure it does.

Police shootings are bad. Segue to possible covid transmission in Paris.

Please tell me your point isn't: "cops killing black folks in the USis wrong, but look at all these black folks in another country that might get covid19 and die".

Is that it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:46:24 AM
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your post?

Sure it does.

Police shootings are bad. Segue to possible covid transmission in Paris.

Please tell me your point isn't: "cops killing black folks in the USis wrong, but look at all these black folks in another country that might get covid19 and die".

Is that it?

Why do you want me to tell you that isn't my point? There is some irony in a bunch of majority non black protesters under banners and chants of "black lives matter", protesting the police killing of about ~300 black people a year, spreading a disease that is disproportionately taking black lives (so far killed about 30,000 of them in the US in the past 4 months).

The racial breakdown of covid deaths in France is harder to find, but the disease has impacted that country significantly worse than the US on a per capita basis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:46:24 AM
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your post?

Sure it does.

Police shootings are bad. Segue to possible covid transmission in Paris.

Please tell me your point isn't: "cops killing black folks in the USis wrong, but look at all these black folks in another country that might get covid19 and die".

Is that it?

Why do you want me to tell you that isn't my point? There is some irony in a bunch of majority non black protesters under banners and chants of "black lives matter", protesting the police killing of about ~300 black people a year, spreading a disease that is disproportionately taking black lives (so far killed about 30,000 of them in the US in the past 4 months).

The racial breakdown of covid deaths in France is harder to find, but the disease has impacted that country significantly worse than the US on a per capita basis.

Ok, so that was your point.

/ignore
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 15, 2020, 03:13:34 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:46:24 AM
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your post?

Sure it does.

Police shootings are bad. Segue to possible covid transmission in Paris.

Please tell me your point isn't: "cops killing black folks in the USis wrong, but look at all these black folks in another country that might get covid19 and die".

Is that it?

Why do you want me to tell you that isn't my point? There is some irony in a bunch of majority non black protesters under banners and chants of "black lives matter", protesting the police killing of about ~300 black people a year, spreading a disease that is disproportionately taking black lives (so far killed about 30,000 of them in the US in the past 4 months).

The racial breakdown of covid deaths in France is harder to find, but the disease has impacted that country significantly worse than the US on a per capita basis.

Ok, so that was your point.

/ignore

Props for trying. :console:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 07:22:24 AM
:mellow:

Yes. He's supposed to let him run away. You don't kill someone over this.

What is the criteria for letting someone run away?  This guy was violent, armed and discharged a weapon at the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 07:22:24 AM
:mellow:

Yes. He's supposed to let him run away. You don't kill someone over this.

What is the criteria for letting someone run away?  This guy was violent, armed and discharged a weapon at the police.

A nonlethal weapon. You don't kill someone trying to retreat just because he tried to do something violent at some point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 05:16:26 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 07:22:24 AM
:mellow:

Yes. He's supposed to let him run away. You don't kill someone over this.

What is the criteria for letting someone run away?  This guy was violent, armed and discharged a weapon at the police.

A nonlethal weapon. You don't kill someone trying to retreat just because he tried to do something violent at some point.


A less-than-lethal weapon.  They can still kill people.  We just saw a bunch of less-than-lethal weapons used on protesters last week.  And he just shot it at a cop.  The violent act was not hours in the past, it was about two seconds in the past.

So an armed and violent man runs into a residential neighborhood and police are expected to just go "yeah, well it'll probably turn okay. Let's go home"?  There has to be time when it is in fact okay for the police to shoot at someone.  I would have thought that attacking the police, stealing the officer's weapon and then shooting at the cop with weapon would fit the criteria.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 05:16:26 PM
A less-than-lethal weapon.  They can still kill people.  We just saw a bunch of less-than-lethal weapons used on protesters last week.  And he just shot it at a cop.  The violent act was not hours in the past, it was about two seconds in the past.

So an armed and violent man runs into a residential neighborhood and police are expected to just go "yeah, well it'll probably turn okay. Let's go home"?  There has to be time when it is in fact okay for the police to shoot at someone.  I would have thought that attacking the police, stealing the officer's weapon and then shooting at the cop with weapon would fit the criteria.

They explore the space of response options between 1) shooting someone twice in the back killing him and 2) just going home.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 05:16:26 PM
A less-than-lethal weapon.  They can still kill people.  We just saw a bunch of less-than-lethal weapons used on protesters last week.  And he just shot it at a cop.  The violent act was not hours in the past, it was about two seconds in the past.

So an armed and violent man runs into a residential neighborhood and police are expected to just go "yeah, well it'll probably turn okay. Let's go home"?  There has to be time when it is in fact okay for the police to shoot at someone.  I would have thought that attacking the police, stealing the officer's weapon and then shooting at the cop with weapon would fit the criteria.

They explore the space of response options between 1) shooting someone twice in the back killing him and 2) just going home.


How much time elapse between when the victim shot at the officer while running away and the police officer shot back? 1 second?  2? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on June 15, 2020, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 05:16:26 PM
A less-than-lethal weapon.  They can still kill people.  We just saw a bunch of less-than-lethal weapons used on protesters last week.  And he just shot it at a cop.  The violent act was not hours in the past, it was about two seconds in the past.

So an armed and violent man runs into a residential neighborhood and police are expected to just go "yeah, well it'll probably turn okay. Let's go home"?  There has to be time when it is in fact okay for the police to shoot at someone.  I would have thought that attacking the police, stealing the officer's weapon and then shooting at the cop with weapon would fit the criteria.

They explore the space of response options between 1) shooting someone twice in the back killing him and 2) just going home.

So at some point one or more cops are going to have to confront him and he still has the taser. Would it then be ok to shoot him in the front?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:27:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?

Tell him to put the taser down.

Dude fell asleep at a Wendy's drive thru and took a taser. They weren't trying to apprehend someone on America's Most Wanted. The sky wouldn't fall if he got away (and he probably wouldn't because he would be leaving his car behind).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:34:18 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:27:38 PM
Tell him to put the taser down.

Dude fell asleep at a Wendy's drive thru and took a taser. They weren't trying to apprehend someone on America's Most Wanted. The sky wouldn't fall if he got away (and he probably wouldn't because he would be leaving his car behind).

So it turned out that the space of response options between 1) shooting him in the back twice and 2) just going home was not that vast.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on June 15, 2020, 07:34:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?

Why is it the normal reaction for the police, after an act of violence, to escalate the situation? Why are they so afraid?

You have so accepted the fact that the police is going to be killing people on a regular basis that you don't wonder about the motivations anymore, just how it's going to work if they don't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:47:00 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2020, 07:34:21 PM
Why is it the normal reaction for the police, after an act of violence, to escalate the situation? Why are they so afraid?

You have so accepted the fact that the police is going to be killing people on a regular basis that you don't wonder about the motivations anymore, just how it's going to work if they don't.

I know that cops are going to encounter violence during their work day and think about how a just society that treats its citizens fairly should empower cops to respond to that violence.  I don't subscribe to simplistic narratives like "cops don't care about me, they only look out for themselves," or "cops escalate violence out of fear" because it doesn't fit my observations and I don't subscribe to any ideologies or protest slogans that need to demonize cops or anyone else.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 08:27:37 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:27:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?

Tell him to put the taser down.

Dude fell asleep at a Wendy's drive thru and took a taser. They weren't trying to apprehend someone on America's Most Wanted. The sky wouldn't fall if he got away (and he probably wouldn't because he would be leaving his car behind).


So basically "Stop or we'll say "stop" again?".  I'm not sure if I like the model of legal immunity so long as you can run very fast.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 15, 2020, 08:44:20 PM
I'm ok with falling asleep at Wendy's going unpunished.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on June 15, 2020, 09:28:38 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:27:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?

Tell him to put the taser down.


what happens if he doesn't?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
Are some here seriously arguing that there is no way to disarm a suspect with a taser by multiple cops on the scene without shooting him? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
Are some here seriously arguing that there is no way to disarm a suspect with a taser by multiple cops on the scene without shooting him? :unsure:

No one is arguing that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 10:20:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
Are some here seriously arguing that there is no way to disarm a suspect with a taser by multiple cops on the scene without shooting him? :unsure:

No one is arguing that.
So why are some people here getting a pop quiz on police tactics?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 10:30:16 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 10:20:32 PM
So why are some people here getting a pop quiz on police tactics?

A pop quiz, as in the answer is already known by the person asking, and the counterpart's knowledge is being tested?  I don't see that either.

If this is a roundabout way of responding to "what next," then we should proceed on that basis.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on June 15, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
Are some here seriously arguing that there is no way to disarm a suspect with a taser by multiple cops on the scene without shooting him? :unsure:

I don't actually know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 15, 2020, 11:17:44 PM
How do tasers work these days? Don't you have to reload or prime them again after firing?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 11:48:08 PM
I'm not sure how exactly you would handle a man who has potential to temporarily disable one cop out of many on the scene.  I'm pretty sure that it doesn't warrant preemptive summary execution, however, and I'm not sure why that would be the default stance in the minds of some.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 01:33:10 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 12, 2020, 07:02:19 PM
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous (https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous)

Camden 10th most dangerous city. I guess that's something so, good job Camden.  :rolleyes:
It has a police force, the title is pure clickbait.  It dismantled its police force and rebuilt it from the ground up.  It has problems, it's not perfect, but in their case it's working and it warrants further studies/experiments.  I don't see this working for a city the size of New York, but maybe there are some things that can be adapted.

And look at the intro:
a different scene was playing out in what was once the most dangerous city in the United States.
I'd say going from #1 to #10 is a good thing, and it warrants investigation to see if it was the contributing factor, one factore among many, etc, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 01:48:22 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2020, 08:37:28 PM
Generally I think the recent phenonemon of the police transitioning to black gear from blue was far more problematic. I guess maybe 11B4V was suggesting that the masks made them all look like white oppressors I don't know.
As I'm sure the rules are similar in the US to what they are here, you don't just wake up one morning and decide to buy a bunch of masks for your entire police force.  There are rules about buying stuff, that means long delays and most likely a public bidding process.

I'm pretty sure the process had begun a while ago, before the recent waves of protests, and I'm sure no one though about it.
Now, if you want an example of tone deaf-itude, look at New Brunswick Premier. Last week, a young 1st nation woman was shot dead by a police officer.  This week-end, a young 1st nation man was shot dead, it would appear he was suffering from mental illness, charge the officers, they tried to subdue him, even with a taser, but nothing worked, so he was shot dead.  His answer to this: "Police should shoot in the legs instead of shooting to kill".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/wnnb-wolastoqey-chiefs-call-premiers-comments-insensitive-cruel-chantel-mmoore-death-1.5610189

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 01:50:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 13, 2020, 12:30:46 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)

It seems like many have already moved on? :unsure:
It used to be a thing with IDE drives.  SATA has replaced the standards many years ago and we don't use it in modern hardware anymore.  In software, the databases I have seen refers to parent/child, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in all areas of coding to determine the veracity of his point.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 01:59:51 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 02:41:23 AM
Wow. Well I'm never going back to the US. You guys have a real problem.
The way it's going, I don't think the border will open anytime soon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:01:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2020, 02:58:58 AM
I think this is the incident

https://www.abqjournal.com/1380152/apd-man-shot-by-officers-in-august-was-armed-with-bb-gun.html (https://www.abqjournal.com/1380152/apd-man-shot-by-officers-in-august-was-armed-with-bb-gun.html)
Fuck, I wasn't expecting that.  :cry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:05:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2020, 08:46:47 AM
The bum on the bus bench was a tragic, but probably legitimate shooting. He had a gun, he reached for it when they told him to keep his hands clear, and they had reason to believe he was armed and a danger to others (several people had called in and said he was pointing a handgun at people).

Of course, it turned out to be a fucking BB gun made to look like a real gun (THAT should be fucking illegal right there), but you can't wait until he actually blows you away so you can be sure that a gun designed to look just like a deadly gun, is in fact a deadly gun.
Shooting once is one thing.  Shooting 15 rounds for a (possible) handgun he wasn't waiving in the direction of the officers is another.  If they had handguns instead of the rifles, they might have been alble to shoot him in a non lethal way, maybe shoot in the shoulder, I don't really know.  There's got to be something else than shooting everyone with some form of mental illness :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 16, 2020, 02:10:35 AM
How often do American cops use warning shots?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:11:08 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2020, 08:50:29 AM
Sometimes that means you let them take the first shot, if the alternative is to summarily execute anyone whose hands go where you don't like them going.
that's not really an option.  Well, with a taser, yes.  With a real (or even possible) gun, no.  Non lethal shots should be attempted, but unless mistaken, cops are trained to shoot center-mass so they don't miss and eliminate the source of danger.

With the taser situation, the cops had his indentity already.  Letting him go, and sending a patrol to pick him up at his place, or following him from a distance could have been a better situation.  I guess instincts prevailed :(
With mental illness, cops are badly equipped to deal with his.  Their specialty is protecting the public and themselves from violent criminals (psychopaths).  There are other, more qualified people that should be added as a resource, even when someone is possibly armed.  Just like cops don't go in a barricaded place until after they had a negotiator on site.  "Pointing" a gun and shooting with it should be treated differently, imho.  Anything but that had got to be better, and not neccessarly risk the live(s) of the officer(s).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:12:10 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 16, 2020, 02:10:35 AM
How often do American cops use warning shots?
According to my extensive research by years of watching american tv series and movies, never.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:15:54 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2020, 09:14:02 AM
Is there any police organization in the world which deals with these situations in a way that is considered best practice? If so, how do they deal with these situations? Copy their methods.
I don't think any approach is so universally good that it would work with a simple copy/paste.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:16:32 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2020, 10:12:01 AM
France has it's own racism problem too. American culture poisons everything.
Well, France did not wait on the US to be racist, I think :P

Everyone has their own problems.  We have no need of importing others into or own.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:17:47 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2020, 11:26:08 AM
I don't understand your last paragraph. What's the relation to the rest of your post?

Sorry, I didn't think you needed to be spoon fed. How many covid deaths do you think will result from gatherings like the one pictured?
When it comes to leftist protests, the cause outweighs the negative outcomes.  Or so we were told by our idiotic Prime Minister.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:22:10 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?
at some point he let go of the taser, maybe falls asleep elsewhere.  Then you pick him up, arrest him, slap a charge of assaulting a police officer on top of the DUI.  Next time, he'll think twice about drinking.  No protest, no legal fees for the police department, no investigation into some possibly unjustified death.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:24:34 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:47:00 PM
"cops escalate violence out of fear"
then why do they?
I mean, if they don't fear for their security of the security of the public, why do they escalate the violence then?

I don't know what it is to be a cop, but if I was a cop and I wasn't fearing for my life, the life of my partners, the life of the public, I don't think I would escalate the violence...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2020, 02:26:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2020, 08:27:37 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:27:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
Chipwich and Raz: don't shoot the dude with the taser. I get it if you are alone, but not if you have backup.

OK, dude has not been shot.  What next?

Tell him to put the taser down.

Dude fell asleep at a Wendy's drive thru and took a taser. They weren't trying to apprehend someone on America's Most Wanted. The sky wouldn't fall if he got away (and he probably wouldn't because he would be leaving his car behind).


So basically "Stop or we'll say "stop" again?".  I'm not sure if I like the model of legal immunity so long as you can run very fast.
You have a weird definition of imminuty.

They the dude's car.  They have his driver's license.  Do you think he is going to run away and disapear forever  with the taser, maybe switch identity, move to a country with no extradition treaty?  All before the cops can get to his place and wait for him there?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 16, 2020, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned a big difference between US cops and their other western counterparts. Gun ownership means US police will encounter a much higher number of armed civilians. Here police rarely deal with an armed civilian in the street (outside of gang related stuff) so they won't automatically assume someone is reaching for a gun.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 16, 2020, 03:37:36 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 16, 2020, 02:10:35 AM
How often do American cops use warning shots?

Addendum: according to Swedish police, in Sweden cops fire for effect (leg or center of mass depending on the situation) a little more than 15 times a year. They also fire warning shots a little more than 15 times a year. It is not perfectly clear how they count instances where the cops first fire warning shots and then for effect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 16, 2020, 04:15:00 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 16, 2020, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned a big difference between US cops and their other western counterparts. Gun ownership means US police will encounter a much higher number of armed civilians. Here police rarely deal with an armed civilian in the street (outside of gang related stuff) so they won't automatically assume someone is reaching for a gun.

Oh it's come up multiple times. Where you been, under a rock.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 16, 2020, 04:53:43 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 16, 2020, 04:15:00 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 16, 2020, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned a big difference between US cops and their other western counterparts. Gun ownership means US police will encounter a much higher number of armed civilians. Here police rarely deal with an armed civilian in the street (outside of gang related stuff) so they won't automatically assume someone is reaching for a gun.

Oh it's come up multiple times. Where you been, under a rock.

Apparently. Haven't heard it mentioned over the last few weeks, here or in the media.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2020, 05:21:49 AM
 :cry:
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272725083983929345
Quote5️⃣1️⃣4️⃣ Fort Wayne, IN: police teargas a 3-year-old and her mom who weren't even protestors

Then, after volunteers clean off the 3yo, a cop deliberately throws *another* live teargas canister at her feet to douse her again

The cops are rioting
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 16, 2020, 06:32:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2020, 05:21:49 AM
:cry:
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1272725083983929345
Quote5️⃣1️⃣4️⃣ Fort Wayne, IN: police teargas a 3-year-old and her mom who weren't even protestors

Then, after volunteers clean off the 3yo, a cop deliberately throws *another* live teargas canister at her feet to douse her again

The cops are rioting

I detest Twitter, but this guy's feed almost makes me sign up. Over 500 documented cases already, a lot of them loook pretty damning even if recordings are taken out of context.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2020, 06:46:07 AM
A large part of the Twitter experience depends on who you follow. If you stay away from "controversial" accounts, and focus on topical ones (like the excellent https://twitter.com/PulpLibrarian ) relevant to your interests, then you will generally be fine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on June 16, 2020, 08:05:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 16, 2020, 02:10:35 AM
How often do American cops use warning shots?

It was fired in 1966.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 16, 2020, 08:38:30 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/nyregion/nypd-plainclothes-cops.html

QuoteN.Y.P.D. Disbands Plainclothes Units Involved in Many Shootings

The New York police commissioner announced on Monday that he was disbanding the Police Department's anti-crime units: plainclothes teams that target violent crime and have been involved in some of the city's most notorious police shootings.

Roughly 600 officers serve in the units, which are spread out across the city and work out of the department's 77 precincts and nine housing commands. They will immediately be reassigned to other duties, including the detective bureau and the department's neighborhood policing initiative, the commissioner, Dermot F. Shea, said.

Mr. Shea said the plainclothes units were part of an outdated policing model that too often seemed to pit officers against the communities they served, and that they were involved in a disproportionate number of civilian complaints and fatal shootings by the police. He said the department now depends much more on intelligence gathering and technology to fight crime and "can move away from brute force."

"This is a seismic shift in the culture of how the N.Y.P.D. polices this great city," Mr. Shea said. "It will be felt immediately in the communities that we protect."

A positive after the PBA of the NYPD had their latest attempt to appear like the victims:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/15/nypd-officers-poisoned-shake-shack/3196868001/

QuoteNYPD says 'no criminality' after officers fall ill after drinking milkshakes at Shake Shack in Manhattan

The New York Police Department said "no criminality" had occurred after investigating whether three of its officers were poisoned after drinking milkshakes on Monday night at a Shake Shack restaurant in Manhattan.

The officers complained of "not feeling well" before being hospitalized and later released, the NYPD said in a statement to USA TODAY, and Shake Shack said via Twitter that it was "horrified" and working with police.

Chief Rodney Harrison, NYPD's chief of detectives, tweeted early Tuesday: "After a thorough investigation by the NYPD's Manhattan South investigators, it has been determined that there was no criminality by shake shack's employees."

The Detectives' Endowment Association, the labor union that represents 20,000 active and retired New York City Detectives, had earlier condemned the incident as an attack on police, claiming on Twitter that the officers were "intentionally poisoned by one or more workers."

'The major stumbling block': Powerful police unions stand in the way of structural reform, experts say

"Police in New York City and across the country are under attack by vicious criminals who dislike us simply because of the uniform we wear," DEA President Paul DiGiacomo said in a statement. "Emboldened by pandering elected officials, these cowards will go to great lengths to harm any member of law enforcement."

The Police Benevolent Association of the City of New York said on Twitter, "When NYC police officers cannot even take meal without coming under attack, it is clear that environment in which we work has deteriorated to a critical level. We cannot afford to let our guard down for even a moment."

In a statement, the PBA added, "All PBA members are advised to carefully inspect any prepared food items they purchase while on duty for possible contamination."


The incident came amid ongoing national protests against policy brutality, spurred by the death of George Floyd in police custody in Minneapolis on May 25, and rising calls for police reform or defunding.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 16, 2020, 10:48:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 16, 2020, 06:46:07 AM
A large part of the Twitter experience depends on who you follow. If you stay away from "controversial" accounts, and focus on topical ones (like the excellent https://twitter.com/PulpLibrarian ) relevant to your interests, then you will generally be fine.

I follow several controversial accounts.  It's still fine - just never, ever read the tweets that follow.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2020, 10:54:17 AM
Also true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2020, 01:13:25 PM
How does the fact that the guy would have a police taser in his posession when he ran away make him more dangerous to police or others?

We live in a society where it is perfectly legal for him to carry around and own an assault rifle with a couple hundred rounds of ammo at any and all times.

Police cannot use the *possible* threat of anyone as justification for shooting people - otherwise they should just start shooting everyone the moment they step out of their precinct hall, because every single person they see MIGHT be armed at a level a couple of order of magnitudes more dangerous than one guy with a taser.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 16, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
Because he was black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 16, 2020, 02:19:29 PM
A very Dutch moment in my city today: Cops get called about someone driving around pointing a gun at people. They force the car off the road, and take aim at what turns out to be an 18 year old. They talk him into surrendering, the weapon turns out to be a BB gun. No charges are made, but he has had to agree to a talk with the two police officers on their request, so they could explain how shaken up they are about having had to point their gun at an 18 year old.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2020, 02:26:01 PM
A guy was practice shooting a crossbow yesterday in a public park. Police told him to stop doing it. He received a fine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on June 16, 2020, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 16, 2020, 02:26:01 PM
A guy was practice shooting a crossbow yesterday in a public park. Police told him to stop doing it. He received a fine.

When I was a kid, I made a crossbow out of a car spring (my dad helped). I brought it to school with me.

The teacher loved it, we had a recess in which I got to demonstrate it in a little park outside the school.

So much about that would not be possible today. 😄
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 16, 2020, 02:32:52 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2020, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 16, 2020, 02:26:01 PM
A guy was practice shooting a crossbow yesterday in a public park. Police told him to stop doing it. He received a fine.

When I was a kid, I made a crossbow out of a car spring (my dad helped). I brought it to school with me.

The teacher loved it, we had a recess in which I got to demonstrate it in a little park outside the school.

So much about that would not be possible today. 😄

Crossbows are not prohibited in Canada.  But I do doubt the teachers would let you take it to school.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2020, 02:46:26 PM
In semi-related riot news:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-16/suspects-charged-killing-santa-cruz-cop-and-oakland-federal-officer

QuoteSuspect in killing of 2 Bay Area cops tied to right-wing Boogaloo group, prosecutors allege

OAKLAND —  An Air Force sergeant suspected of killing a Santa Cruz County sheriff's sergeant will be charged, along with a Millbrae man, in the fatal shooting of a federal security officer last month in downtown Oakland, federal officials said Tuesday.

Steven Carrillo, who was charged last week in the killing of Damon Gutzwiller, the sheriff's sergeant, was aided by 30-year-old Robert Justus, of Millbrae, in the killing of 53-year-old federal security officer David Patrick Underwood, officials said. Justus drove a white van and acted as the getaway driver in the May 29 Oakland shooting, officials said.

Officials said Carrillo harbored a hatred of law enforcement and had ties to a right-wing Boogaloo group that believes a second American Civil War is coming soon.

Underwood, a 53-year-old Pinole resident, was guarding the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building in Oakland amid protests nearby over police brutality and the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. The white van was captured on a surveillance video, officials said, which revealed that the gunman had slid open the van's side door to fire the weapon.

Carrillo, 32, was charged last week with Gutzwiller's murder and numerous other felonies. His arraignment has been postponed until next month.

An Air Force sergeant and leader in an elite military security force, Carrillo was armed with homemade bombs, an AR-15 rifle and other weapons and had a desire to harm police when he launched a deadly attack on unsuspecting officers, the Santa Cruz County sheriff said Monday.

Officials said Tuesday that Carrillo and Justus were not part of the protests and were taking advantage of them to carry out their attacks.

Brian Levin, executive director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at Cal State San Bernardino, said Carrillo on social media including Facebook posts had become increasingly disturbing.

Levin said he said he shared memes about the so-called "Boogaloo" movement, a right-wing extremist group that anticipates civil war. Levin said the far-right groups are now more of a threat to government and law enforcement.

"Our research shows 27 far-right extremist connected homicides," Levin said i. 2019. The FBI arrested three associates of the Boogaloo movement in Nevada, recently and they were charged with inciting violence with Molotov cocktails at protests.

Levin said Boogaloo followers range from ultra libertarians to white supremacists but they all share a belief in a second Civil War coming.

"They are Second Amendment insurrectionist," Levin said. "The boogaloo boys believe in arm insurrection and include attacks on the police."

FBI Special Agent in Charge Jack Bennett said that Carrillo used a private made firearm - a so-called ghost gun built using an unmarked receiver to kill the federal officer. Bennett would not say whether Carrillo made that gun or someone else.


But yeah, Antifa are clearly the danger.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 16, 2020, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 16, 2020, 02:32:52 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2020, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 16, 2020, 02:26:01 PM
A guy was practice shooting a crossbow yesterday in a public park. Police told him to stop doing it. He received a fine.

When I was a kid, I made a crossbow out of a car spring (my dad helped). I brought it to school with me.

The teacher loved it, we had a recess in which I got to demonstrate it in a little park outside the school.

So much about that would not be possible today. 😄

Crossbows are not prohibited in Canada.  But I do doubt the teachers would let you take it to school.

Canada is still considered a crusade zone?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 02:49:59 PM
Boogaloo? As in American Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 16, 2020, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 02:49:59 PM
Boogaloo? As in American Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo?

Apparently, yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement

QuoteNaming and identity
The term boogaloo alludes to the 1984 cult film Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo, an unsuccessful sequel to a poorly reviewed predecessor.[2] Following the film's release, the phrase "2: Electric Boogaloo" became a verbal template appended to a topic as a signal of pejorative parody.[17] The boogaloo movement adopted its identity based on the anticipation of a second American Civil War, popularly known as "Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo" among adherents.[5][18]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 02:53:55 PM
See when you name things like that it is hard to take you seriously.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 16, 2020, 02:54:40 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 16, 2020, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 02:49:59 PM
Boogaloo? As in American Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo?

Apparently, yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement

QuoteNaming and identity
The term boogaloo alludes to the 1984 cult film Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo, an unsuccessful sequel to a poorly reviewed predecessor.[2] Following the film's release, the phrase "2: Electric Boogaloo" became a verbal template appended to a topic as a signal of pejorative parody.[17] The boogaloo movement adopted its identity based on the anticipation of a second American Civil War, popularly known as "Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo" among adherents.[5][18]

Golan-Globus and Cannon rule!  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 03:35:33 PM
The Economist had a blurb about boogaloos wearing Hawaiian shirts as a marker, which is sacriligeous.  :mad:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 16, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 03:35:33 PM
The Economist had a blurb about boogaloos wearing Hawaiian shirts as a marker, which is sacriligeous.  :mad:
Yeah - boogaloo to boogaluau to Hawaiian shirts (I assume they err on the big fat party animal wing of white supremacy).

I find the ongoing relationship between memes and reality kind of fascinating.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
Meanwhile, in Austria...

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/austrian-police-defend-decision-to-fine-man-after-provocative-fart?__twitter_impression=true

QuoteAustrian police defend decision to fine man after 'provocative' fart

A man in Vienna has been fined €500 (£447) for breaking wind loudly in front of police in a move the Austrian capital's police force was at pains to defend.

The Österreich newspaper reported that the penalty stemmed from an incident on 5 June and that the offender was fined for offending public decency.

City police wrote on Twitter that "of course no one is reported for accidentally letting one go".

They added that the man had behaved provocatively and uncooperatively during an encounter with officers that preceded the incident.

He got up from a park bench, looked at officers and "let go a massive intestinal wind apparently with full intent", they said.

Police noted that the decision could be appealed against.

Will be interesting how the courts decide. Recently, a court canceled a fine after a man used the word "Oida" towards a policeman. The word, meaning "old one" can be a pejorative way to address someone, but is more often used as an exclamation of frustration or exasperation. A few years ago a court upheld a fine against a guy intentionally burping into a policewoman's face from up close.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2020, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 03:35:33 PM
The Economist had a blurb about boogaloos wearing Hawaiian shirts as a marker, which is sacriligeous.  :mad:
Yeah - boogaloo to boogaluau to Hawaiian shirts (I assume they err on the big fat party animal wing of white supremacy).

I find the ongoing relationship between memes and reality kind of fascinating.

The morphing of the term happened after Facebook blocked Boogaloo groups.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PRC on June 16, 2020, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 16, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
Meanwhile, in Austria...

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/austrian-police-defend-decision-to-fine-man-after-provocative-fart?__twitter_impression=true

QuoteAustrian police defend decision to fine man after 'provocative' fart

A man in Vienna has been fined €500 (£447) for breaking wind loudly in front of police in a move the Austrian capital's police force was at pains to defend.

The Österreich newspaper reported that the penalty stemmed from an incident on 5 June and that the offender was fined for offending public decency.

City police wrote on Twitter that "of course no one is reported for accidentally letting one go".

They added that the man had behaved provocatively and uncooperatively during an encounter with officers that preceded the incident.

He got up from a park bench, looked at officers and "let go a massive intestinal wind apparently with full intent", they said.

Police noted that the decision could be appealed against.

Will be interesting how the courts decide. Recently, a court canceled a fine after a man used the word "Oida" towards a policeman. The word, meaning "old one" can be a pejorative way to address someone, but is more often used as an exclamation of frustration or exasperation. A few years ago a court upheld a fine against a guy intentionally burping into a policewoman's face from up close.

I got kicked out of a cab for farting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2020, 04:35:02 PM
I dunno. The fart thing sounds fair enough. Seems like the difference between natural saliva, needing to blow your nose, etc.... And spitting on someone. Assuming the police are being truthful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 16, 2020, 05:48:51 PM
"Chokeholds would be banned under the recommended standards, Mr. Trump said, unless an officer's life is at risk."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-signs-policing-executive-order-11592325988

They were never authorized before period. Now they are. Way to go dumbass.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2020, 05:56:44 PM
I fart in your general direction. :blurgh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2020, 06:00:16 PM
I have a definite recollection of Roger Ebert giving a favorable review to Breakin' 2.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 16, 2020, 06:41:13 PM
Update from Buffalo:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/16/us/martin-gugino-protester-skull/index.html
Quote(CNN)Martin Gugino, the 75-year-old protester who was pushed by two Buffalo, New York, police officers earlier this month, has a fractured skull and is not able to walk, his lawyer said in a statement provided to CNN on Monday.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
He won't do it but I really wish he would sue Trump for defamation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PRC on June 16, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2020, 06:00:16 PM
I have a definite recollection of Roger Ebert giving a favorable review to Breakin' 2.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/breakin-2-electric-boogaloo-1984

3 out of 4 stars.  I really enjoyed Eberts reviews and his blog after losing his voice, but this was not his finest hour.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 08:36:52 PM
Pelosi has given the Congressional Black Caucus the job of drafting the House police reform bill.  That's smart politics.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 08:40:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 08:36:52 PM
Pelosi has given the Congressional Black Caucus the job of drafting the House police reform bill.  That's smart politics.

Indeed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on June 16, 2020, 09:13:01 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 03:35:33 PM
The Economist had a blurb about boogaloos wearing Hawaiian shirts as a marker, which is sacriligeous.  :mad:
Yeah - boogaloo to boogaluau to Hawaiian shirts (I assume they err on the big fat party animal wing of white supremacy).

I find the ongoing relationship between memes and reality kind of fascinating.
Another one they use is "Big Igloo"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 10:22:52 PM
Interesting how they are committed to killing other Americans in a big war but cannot seem to agree with who they are going to fight and what exactly they are fighting them for. Just a general feeling of hatred and a desire to kill that lacks any specific purpose. Truly psychos without a cause.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 16, 2020, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2020, 03:35:33 PM
The Economist had a blurb about boogaloos wearing Hawaiian shirts as a marker, which is sacriligeous.  :mad:

Don't worry, it makes them easier to see.

:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 17, 2020, 03:45:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2020, 10:22:52 PM
Interesting how they are committed to killing other Americans in a big war but cannot seem to agree with who they are going to fight and what exactly they are fighting them for. Just a general feeling of hatred and a desire to kill that lacks any specific purpose. Truly psychos without a cause.

Sounds like the far right over here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on June 17, 2020, 03:51:17 AM
Quote from: PRC on June 16, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2020, 06:00:16 PM
I have a definite recollection of Roger Ebert giving a favorable review to Breakin' 2.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/breakin-2-electric-boogaloo-1984

3 out of 4 stars.  I really enjoyed Eberts reviews and his blog after losing his voice, but this was not his finest hour.

Back in the time he was the first American movie reviewer I followed, and he has many low points like this one sadly. I definitely remember him liking Speed 2, too.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 17, 2020, 03:52:06 AM
Quote from: PRC on June 16, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2020, 06:00:16 PM
I have a definite recollection of Roger Ebert giving a favorable review to Breakin' 2.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/breakin-2-electric-boogaloo-1984

3 out of 4 stars.  I really enjoyed Eberts reviews and his blog after losing his voice, but this was not his finest hour.

Well, it was not Golan-Globus' finest hour but still way more watchable than King Lear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 17, 2020, 04:33:56 AM
Apparently there's a Churchill statue somewhere in Budapest (to be fair, there is also a Bud Spencer one), and somebody painted "Nazi" and "BLM" on it.


This whole long process of the birth of a global culture is sort of fascinating. Too bad these are just the initial periods of it, and I won't live to see it mature.

Going to be still around for its violent clashes with local cultures though, it seems.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 17, 2020, 05:57:29 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 17, 2020, 03:51:17 AM
Quote from: PRC on June 16, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2020, 06:00:16 PM
I have a definite recollection of Roger Ebert giving a favorable review to Breakin' 2.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/breakin-2-electric-boogaloo-1984

3 out of 4 stars.  I really enjoyed Eberts reviews and his blog after losing his voice, but this was not his finest hour.

Back in the time he was the first American movie reviewer I followed, and he has many low points like this one sadly. I definitely remember him liking Speed 2, too.  :lol:

IIRC, he actually published compilations of old reviews in which he grossly messed up, either bad movies he praised or good movies he bashed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on June 17, 2020, 06:32:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2020, 04:33:56 AM
Apparently there's a Churchill statue somewhere in Budapest (to be fair, there is also a Bud Spencer one),

:lol:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Bud_Spencer_-.jpg)

Why? Was he big in Hungary?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 17, 2020, 06:34:23 AM
He was now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 17, 2020, 07:39:52 AM
My favourite surprising statue is the Bruce Lee statue in Mostar:
(https://cherylhoward.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Bruce-Lee-Statue-Mostar-1.jpg)

I think part of the reason behind it was sort of post-modern art project, but also to avoid questions of what he did during the war. Inevitably, being Bosnia, both Bosnians and Croats complained about the initial plans because they thought he was facing their direction in a fighting stance. So he was rotated to face a neutral direction :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 17, 2020, 07:50:24 AM
The Bud Spencer and Terence Hill movies were absolutely massive in Hungary, they are still shown every public holiday on TV. Of course excellent dubbing always helps in these cases, but still
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on June 17, 2020, 08:01:05 AM
They were really popular in Spain when I was a kid. Me and my friends at school used to punch each other trying to get the same punching sound in their movies  :lol:

Not very edifying, I know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 17, 2020, 08:11:25 AM
They were huge in Germany, too. The dubbing was insane, but Italians informed me it's quite accurate. :D

There's also a well reviewed game on Steam that covers their movie exploits: https://store.steampowered.com/app/564050/Bud_Spencer__Terence_Hill__Slaps_And_Beans/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 17, 2020, 09:41:31 AM
Replace all the Confederate statues with Trinity Statues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 17, 2020, 09:43:11 AM
Bud Spencer and Terence Hill were big in France as well. It's not like the Italian versions were direct sound so even the Italian versions were post-synced. Bud Spencer was dubbed by somebody due to his alleged thick Neapolitan accent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 17, 2020, 10:17:17 AM
Replace all Confederate statues with statues of Callista Flockhart.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 17, 2020, 12:13:52 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 17, 2020, 10:17:17 AM
Replace all Confederate statues with statues of Callista Flockhart.

And people say I'm random.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 18, 2020, 03:51:52 AM
A compromise has been suggested for the statue of Leopold II in Belgium:

(https://scontent-hel2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/104493659_10158318026269463_4884936064848000924_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=maTTzJVBjbsAX-9oiB9&_nc_ht=scontent-hel2-1.xx&oh=9b98a2212d9b08ba8dff2ce4e4d928ac&oe=5F124D44)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 18, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 19, 2020, 05:26:06 AM
:lol: Thai paper story on the US protests in the "Western foreign correspondent" voice:
QuoteForeign Affairs: Unrest continues for a seventh day in former British colony
Cod Satrusayang
By
Cod Satrusayang
June 2, 2020
Share

Unrest and protests continued for a seventh straight day in the former British colony of the United States as the government vowed to use its military to end the demonstrations, US media reported on Tuesday.

The protests began in the small province of Minnesota, located in the agrarian 'Middle West,' over the killing of an ethnic minority by state security forces.

Protests led by the minority 'black' community have erupted throughout the country with the minority group calling for equal rights and better treatment from the government. Protesters have set fire to government installations and looted buildings throughout the country as clashes with security forces continue. The security forces have tried to disperse the protesters with tear gas, rubber bullets and batons but to no avail.

US President Donald Trump, who was 'elected' in 2016 despite the majority of votes going to his rival candidate, vowed in a speech to bring in the military to end the protests.

"I will deploy the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them," Trump said in a national address.

Trump used the opportunity to walk to a religious temple in the national capital Washington DC to proclaim his religious affiliation. Holding a Christian bible in his hand, Trump declared the US "a great nation."

Religious fundamentalism and minority suppression has long been a problem in the former British colony.

The United States has had a long history of suppressing and persecuting its various ethnic minorities since the country gained its independence from the United Kingdom in 1776.

The treatment of its indigenous 'Native Americans,' its imported Asian and Black communities, and its Hispanic community has long been a source of friction.

American black minority groups were under a program similar to South Africa's Apartheid policy until as recently as 1964. Today, the ethnic black community is still detained and killed with impunity by the state security forces and black Americans make up the majority of those incarcerated under the country's archaic judicial system.

Religion also plays a major role in governance with religious beliefs separating key state organs including the country's highest court where many social laws are passed based on the justices personally held religious convictions.

[Disclaimer: Native Americans is in quotations because it is a blanket term used by the ruling class of the US to call the country's original inhabitants before the Anglo-European invasion. The 'Native Americans' are comprised of thousands of tribes, all with their own culture, language and traditions.]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 19, 2020, 05:30:33 AM
 :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 19, 2020, 05:36:32 AM
 :lol: That it awesome.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 19, 2020, 06:29:44 AM
:(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 19, 2020, 06:41:49 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 19, 2020, 06:51:20 AM
It's an older case (from 2016, though bodycam footage was only released last year), but it really gets to me. Imagine calling 911 for help with a mental health crisis and they cops end up killing you.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tony-timpa-disturbing-video-shows-dallas-officers-joking-as-they-restrain-man-who-died/

QuoteDisturbing video shows Dallas officers joking as they restrain man who died

Disturbing police body camera footage released Wednesday shows a man being restrained by Dallas officers before his death and yelling, "You're gonna kill me!"

The footage showing the August 2016 death of Tony Timpa in Dallas shows an officer pinning him to the ground with his hands cuffed behind him for nearly 14 minutes as the 32-year-old eventually becomes unresponsive. Officers are heard joking that Timpa had fallen asleep, with one yelling "five more minutes, mom!"

Timpa's death in the parking lot of an adult video store came after he called 911, saying he was off his medication for schizophrenia and depression and needed help. Questions about what happened in the moments leading to his death have swirled as city officials argued against the release of the body camera footage, according to the Dallas Morning News, but a judge on Monday sided with news outlets who had sought to make the video public.

In a federal lawsuit alleging excessive force, Timpa's family claims the officers "recklessly" and "knowingly" killed the man.

"He was expecting someone to help him, that's why he called," Timpa's mother Vicki Timpa told CBS Dallas / Fort Worth in 2018, after the family had viewed the body camera footage but before it was made public. "He wasn't expecting several police to kill him."

A medical examiner ruled Timpa's death a homicide, and listed the cause as "sudden cardiac death" caused by "the toxic effects of cocaine and physiological stress associated with physical restraint," reports CBS DFW. Sgt. Kevin Mansell, Officer Danny Vasquez and Officer Dustin Dillard were indicted on misdemeanor deadly conduct charges in December. But the Dallas County District Attorney's office dismissed the charges in March, saying three medical examiners had concluded the officers' conduct was not reckless.

The three officers were placed on administrative leave but returned to full duty in April, according to Dallas police. Dallas police said Vasquez and another officer, Raymond Dominguez, were disciplined for "being discourteous and unprofessionalism."


The department wouldn't comment on the video because of the pending litigation.

Police incident reports cited by the Morning News say Timpa's behavior was aggressive and combative, but the video shows Timpa writhing as he apparently struggles to breathe, repeatedly asking the officers to stop restraining him. He's heard yelling, "Help me!"

Timpa was unarmed and had already been handcuffed by a private security guard before officers arrived, the paper reports.

As Timpa becomes unresponsive, an officer says he appears to be "out cold," and they laugh and joke about him being asleep, saying, "It's time for school, wake up!"

Another says, "I don't want to go to school! Five more minutes, Mom!"

Paramedics are seen administering a sedative and transferring him onto a gurney and into an ambulance. Timpa is apparently unresponsive. One of the officers asks: "He didn't just die down there, did he?" and "Hope I didn't kill him."


Paramedics later inform the officers that Timpa has died.

Speaking last year to CBS DFW,  Dallas Police Association president Michael Mata said the officers followed department policy and their actions had nothing to do with Timpa's death.

"My heart goes out to his mother," Mata said. "I would hate to lose a child but what killed that man was 20 years of drug abuse."

Vicki Timpa told CBS DFW that her son struggled with alcohol and drugs, but called Mata's statement an "absurd falsehood." 

An attorney for Timpa's family, Geoff Henley, told CBS DFW on Wednesday that officers had no reason to use that kind of restraint for that long.

"Tony Timpa shouldn't have died that night," Henley said.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 19, 2020, 07:19:27 AM
What the cops did is brutal, and they should go away for it, but why did the paramedics sedate an unconscious man?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 19, 2020, 07:31:06 AM
Ohio's finest!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaqZ1LzXsAIgbSE?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaqZ1SJWoAQCWRJ?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 19, 2020, 07:19:27 AM
What the cops did is brutal, and they should go away for it, but why did the paramedics sedate an unconscious man?

Beats me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 19, 2020, 09:47:21 AM
How else would they be able to claim that drugs killed him?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 19, 2020, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 19, 2020, 07:19:27 AM
What the cops did is brutal, and they should go away for it, but why did the paramedics sedate an unconscious man?

Beats me.


Police Officer: "Don't mind if I do!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 19, 2020, 04:24:02 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 19, 2020, 07:19:27 AM
What the cops did is brutal, and they should go away for it, but why did the paramedics sedate an unconscious man?
The cops possibly told them he was dangerously violent before they restrained him and they should be careful when transporting him.  They wanted to avoid the trouble of dealing him when he woke up.  That's negligence from them too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 19, 2020, 04:41:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 19, 2020, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 19, 2020, 07:19:27 AM
What the cops did is brutal, and they should go away for it, but why did the paramedics sedate an unconscious man?

Beats me.


Police Officer: "Don't mind if I do!"

:D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 19, 2020, 06:07:36 PM
If bad officers are sent away to private security firms where they can still use a gun and put people in danger, it's not much improvement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/19/tulsa-security-guard-shooting/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 19, 2020, 06:14:09 PM
Who would've guessed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 19, 2020, 11:24:01 PM
Protesters tear down, burn statue of Confederate general in DC

QuoteProtestors in Washington, D.C. toppled and burned a statue of Confederate Gen. Albert Pike late Friday on the 155th anniversary of Juneteenth, a holiday commemorating the end of slavery.

Approximately 80 to 100 people gathered around the statue of Pike at 11 p.m. Friday and toppled it 15 minutes later, according to Fox 5 DC. The protestors then lit the statue on fire.

Shortly after, President Trump knocked the city's police department for allowing the incident to happen, and called for the immediate arrest of the persons involved.

"The D.C. Police are not doing their job as they watch a statue be ripped down & burn. These people should be immediately arrested. A disgrace to our Country!" he tweeted, tagging the city's Democratic Mayor Muriel Bowser.

Cities and states across the country have begun removing statues of polarizing historical figures amid a national reckoning over racial injustice sparked by the death of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man who died in Minneapolis police custody.

Floyd's death has prompted protests nationwide, as well as renewed calls from activists and lawmakers for the removal of monuments commemorating figures believed to be symbols of racism.

Pike's statue is reportedly the only Confederate monument in D.C.

:smoke:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 19, 2020, 11:30:05 PM
Pike commanded American Indians against the US Government.

He probably found the only way to do that and get your statue thrown in a river for being a symbol of white supremacy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2020, 12:05:43 AM
We will not tolerate statues of Freemasons in the nation's capital!  :frog:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 20, 2020, 01:50:16 AM
Long essay. Written anonymously, so not able to verify if true or not. But I know we have some people who will be able to say if it at least rings true.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

QuoteConfessions of a Former Bastard Cop

I was a police officer for nearly ten years and I was a bastard. We all were.

This essay has been kicking around in my head for years now and I've never felt confident enough to write it. It's a time in my life I'm ashamed of. It's a time that I hurt people and, through inaction, allowed others to be hurt. It's a time that I acted as a violent agent of capitalism and white supremacy. Under the guise of public safety, I personally ruined people's lives but in so doing, made the public no safer... so did the family members and close friends of mine who also bore the badge alongside me.
But enough is enough.

The reforms aren't working. Incrementalism isn't happening. Unarmed Black, indigenous, and people of color are being killed by cops in the streets and the police are savagely attacking the people protesting these murders.

American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don't believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don't believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you'll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig's mouth.

WHY AM I WRITING THIS

As someone who went through the training, hiring, and socialization of a career in law enforcement, I wanted to give a first-hand account of why I believe police officers are the way they are. Not to excuse their behavior, but to explain it and to indict the structures that perpetuate it.

I believe that if everyone understood how we're trained and brought up in the profession, it would inform the demands our communities should be making of a new way of community safety. If I tell you how we were made, I hope it will empower you to unmake us.

One of the other reasons I've struggled to write this essay is that I don't want to center the conversation on myself and my big salty boo-hoo feelings about my bad choices. It's a toxic white impulse to see atrocities and think "How can I make this about me?" So, I hope you'll take me at my word that this account isn't meant to highlight me, but rather the hundred thousand of me in every city in the country. It's about the structure that made me (that I chose to pollute myself with) and it's my meager contribution to the cause of radical justice.

YES, ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS

I was a police officer in a major metropolitan area in California with a predominantly poor, non-white population (with a large proportion of first-generation immigrants). One night during briefing, our watch commander told us that the city council had requested a new zero tolerance policy. Against murderers, drug dealers, or child predators?

No, against homeless people collecting cans from recycling bins.

See, the city had some kickback deal with the waste management company where waste management got paid by the government for our expected tonnage of recycling. When homeless people "stole" that recycling from the waste management company, they were putting that cheaper contract in peril. So, we were to arrest as many recyclers as we could find.

Even for me, this was a stupid policy and I promptly blew Sarge off. But a few hours later, Sarge called me over to assist him. He was detaining a 70 year old immigrant who spoke no English, who he'd seen picking a coke can out of a trash bin. He ordered me to arrest her for stealing trash. I said, "Sarge, c'mon, she's an old lady." He said, "I don't give a shit. Hook her up, that's an order." And... I did. She cried the entire way to the station and all through the booking process. I couldn't even comfort her because I didn't speak Spanish. I felt disgusting but I was ordered to make this arrest and I wasn't willing to lose my job for her.

If you're tempted to feel sympathy for me, don't. I used to happily hassle the homeless under other circumstances. I researched obscure penal codes so I could arrest people in homeless encampments for lesser known crimes like "remaining too close to railroad property" (369i of the California Penal Code). I used to call it "planting warrant seeds" since I knew they wouldn't make their court dates and we could arrest them again and again for warrant violations.

We used to have informal contests for who could cite or arrest someone for the weirdest law. DUI on a bicycle, non-regulation number of brooms on your tow truck (27700(a)(1) of the California Vehicle Code)... shit like that. For me, police work was a logic puzzle for arresting people, regardless of their actual threat to the community. As ashamed as I am to admit it, it needs to be said: stripping people of their freedom felt like a game to me for many years.

I know what you're going to ask: did I ever plant drugs? Did I ever plant a gun on someone? Did I ever make a false arrest or file a false report? Believe it or not, the answer is no. Cheating was no fun, I liked to get my stats the "legitimate" way. But I knew officers who kept a little baggie of whatever or maybe a pocket knife that was a little too big in their war bags (yeah, we called our dufflebags "war bags"...). Did I ever tell anybody about it? No I did not. Did I ever confess my suspicions when cocaine suddenly showed up in a gang member's jacket? No I did not.

In fact, let me tell you about an extremely formative experience: in my police academy class, we had a clique of around six trainees who routinely bullied and harassed other students: intentionally scuffing another trainee's shoes to get them in trouble during inspection, sexually harassing female trainees, cracking racist jokes, and so on. Every quarter, we were to write anonymous evaluations of our squadmates. I wrote scathing accounts of their behavior, thinking I was helping keep bad apples out of law enforcement and believing I would be protected. Instead, the academy staff read my complaints to them out loud and outed me to them and never punished them, causing me to get harassed for the rest of my academy class. That's how I learned that even police leadership hates rats. That's why no one is "changing things from the inside." They can't, the structure won't allow it.

And that's the point of what I'm telling you. Whether you were my sergeant, legally harassing an old woman, me, legally harassing our residents, my fellow trainees bullying the rest of us, or "the bad apples" illegally harassing "shitbags", we were all in it together. I knew cops that pulled women over to flirt with them. I knew cops who would pepper spray sleeping bags so that homeless people would have to throw them away. I knew cops that intentionally provoked anger in suspects so they could claim they were assaulted. I was particularly good at winding people up verbally until they lashed out so I could fight them. Nobody spoke out. Nobody stood up. Nobody betrayed the code.

None of us protected the people (you) from bad cops.

This is why "All cops are bastards." Even your uncle, even your cousin, even your mom, even your brother, even your best friend, even your spouse, even me. Because even if they wouldn't Do The Thing themselves, they will almost never rat out another officer who Does The Thing, much less stop it from happening.

BASTARD 101

I could write an entire book of the awful things I've done, seen done, and heard others bragging about doing. But, to me, the bigger question is "How did it get this way?". While I was a police officer in a city 30 miles from where I lived, many of my fellow officers were from the community and treated their neighbors just as badly as I did. While every cop's individual biases come into play, it's the profession itself that is toxic, and it starts from day 1 of training.

Every police academy is different but all of them share certain features: taught by old cops, run like a paramilitary bootcamp, strong emphasis on protecting yourself more than anyone else. The majority of my time in the academy was spent doing aggressive physical training and watching video after video after video of police officers being murdered on duty.

I want to highlight this: nearly everyone coming into law enforcement is bombarded with dash cam footage of police officers being ambushed and killed. Over and over and over. Colorless VHS mortality plays, cops screaming for help over their radios, their bodies going limp as a pair of tail lights speed away into a grainy black horizon. In my case, with commentary from an old racist cop who used to brag about assaulting Black Panthers.

To understand why all cops are bastards, you need to understand one of the things almost every training officer told me when it came to using force:
"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Meaning, "I'll take my chances in court rather than risk getting hurt". We're able to think that way because police unions are extremely overpowered and because of the generous concept of Qualified Immunity, a legal theory which says a cop generally can't be held personally liable for mistakes they make doing their job in an official capacity.

When you look at the actions of the officers who killed George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, David McAtee, Mike Brown, Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, Eric Garner, or Freddie Gray, remember that they, like me, were trained to recite "I'd rather be judged by 12" as a mantra. Even if Mistakes Were Made™, the city (meaning the taxpayers, meaning you) pays the settlement, not the officer.

Once police training has - through repetition, indoctrination, and violent spectacle - promised officers that everyone in the world is out to kill them, the next lesson is that your partners are the only people protecting you. Occasionally, this is even true: I've had encounters turn on me rapidly to the point I legitimately thought I was going to die, only to have other officers come and turn the tables.

One of the most important thought leaders in law enforcement is Col. Dave Grossman, a "killologist" who wrote an essay called "Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs". Cops are the sheepdogs, bad guys are the wolves, and the citizens are the sheep (!). Col. Grossman makes sure to mention that to a stupid sheep, sheepdogs look more like wolves than sheep, and that's why they dislike you.
This "they hate you for protecting them and only I love you, only I can protect you" tactic is familiar to students of abuse. It's what abusers do to coerce their victims into isolation, pulling them away from friends and family and ensnaring them in the abuser's toxic web. Law enforcement does this too, pitting the officer against civilians. "They don't understand what you do, they don't respect your sacrifice, they just want to get away with crimes. You're only safe with us."

I think the Wolves vs. Sheepdogs dynamic is one of the most important elements as to why officers behave the way they do. Every single second of my training, I was told that criminals were not a legitimate part of their community, that they were individual bad actors, and that their bad actions were solely the result of their inherent criminality. Any concept of systemic trauma, generational poverty, or white supremacist oppression was either never mentioned or simply dismissed. After all, most people don't steal, so anyone who does isn't "most people," right? To us, anyone committing a crime deserved anything that happened to them because they broke the "social contract." And yet, it was never even a question as to whether the power structure above them was honoring any sort of contract back.

Understand: Police officers are part of the state monopoly on violence and all police training reinforces this monopoly as a cornerstone of police work, a source of honor and pride. Many cops fantasize about getting to kill someone in the line of duty, egged on by others that have. One of my training officers told me about the time he shot and killed a mentally ill homeless man wielding a big stick. He bragged that he "slept like a baby" that night. Official training teaches you how to be violent effectively and when you're legally allowed to deploy that violence, but "unofficial training" teaches you to desire violence, to expand the breadth of your violence without getting caught, and to erode your own compassion for desperate people so you can justify punitive violence against them.

HOW TO BE A BASTARD

I have participated in some of these activities personally, others are ones I either witnessed personally or heard officers brag about openly. Very, very occasionally, I knew an officer who was disciplined or fired for one of these things.

  • Police officers will lie about the law, about what's illegal, or about what they can legally do to you in order to manipulate you into doing what they want.
  • Police officers will lie about feeling afraid for their life to justify a use of force after the fact.
  • Police officers will lie and tell you they'll file a police report just to get you off their back.
  • Police officers will lie that your cooperation will "look good for you" in court, or that they will "put in a good word for you with the DA." The police will never help you look good in court.
  • Police officers will lie about what they see and hear to access private property to conduct unlawful searches.
  • Police officers will lie and say your friend already ratted you out, so you might as well rat them back out. This is almost never true.
  • Police officers will lie and say you're not in trouble in order to get you to exit a location or otherwise make an arrest more convenient for them.
  • Police officers will lie and say that they won't arrest you if you'll just "be honest with them" so they know what really happened.
  • Police officers will lie about their ability to seize the property of friends and family members to coerce a confession.
  • Police officers will write obviously bullshit tickets so that they get time-and-a-half overtime fighting them in court.
  • Police officers will search places and containers you didn't consent to and later claim they were open or "smelled like marijuana".
  • Police officers will threaten you with a more serious crime they can't prove in order to convince you to confess to the lesser crime they really want you for.
  • Police officers will employ zero tolerance on races and ethnicities they dislike and show favor and lenience to members of their own group.
  • Police officers will use intentionally extra-painful maneuvers and holds during an arrest to provoke "resistance" so they can further assault the suspect.
  • Some police officers will plant drugs and weapons on you, sometimes to teach you a lesson, sometimes if they kill you somewhere away from public view.
  • Some police officers will assault you to intimidate you and threaten to arrest you if you tell anyone.
  • A non-trivial number of police officers will steal from your house or vehicle during a search.
  • A non-trivial number of police officers commit intimate partner violence and use their status to get away with it.
  • A non-trivial number of police officers use their position to entice, coerce, or force sexual favors from vulnerable people.

    If you take nothing else away from this essay, I want you to tattoo this onto your brain forever: if a police officer is telling you something, it is probably a lie designed to gain your compliance.

    Do not talk to cops and never, ever believe them. Do not "try to be helpful" with cops. Do not assume they are trying to catch someone else instead of you. Do not assume what they are doing is "important" or even legal. Under no circumstances assume any police officer is acting in good faith.

    Also, and this is important, do not talk to cops.

    I just remembered something, do not talk to cops.

    Checking my notes real quick, something jumped out at me:

    Do

    not

    fucking

    talk

    to

    cops.

    Ever.

    Say, "I don't answer questions," and ask if you're free to leave; if so, leave. If not, tell them you want your lawyer and that, per the Supreme Court, they must terminate questioning. If they don't, file a complaint and collect some badges for your mantle.

    DO THE BASTARDS EVER HELP?

    Reading the above, you may be tempted to ask whether cops ever do anything good. And the answer is, sure, sometimes. In fact, most officers I worked with thought they were usually helping the helpless and protecting the safety of innocent people.

    During my tenure in law enforcement, I protected women from domestic abusers, arrested cold-blooded murderers and child molesters, and comforted families who lost children to car accidents and other tragedies. I helped connect struggling people in my community with local resources for food, shelter, and counseling. I deescalated situations that could have turned violent and talked a lot of people down from making the biggest mistake of their lives. I worked with plenty of officers who were individually kind, bought food for homeless residents, or otherwise showed care for their community.

    The question is this: did I need a gun and sweeping police powers to help the average person on the average night? The answer is no. When I was doing my best work as a cop, I was doing mediocre work as a therapist or a social worker. My good deeds were listening to people failed by the system and trying to unite them with any crumbs of resources the structure was currently denying them.

    It's also important to note that well over 90% of the calls for service I handled were reactive, showing up well after a crime had taken place. We would arrive, take a statement, collect evidence (if any), file the report, and onto the next caper. Most "active" crimes we stopped were someone harmless possessing or selling a small amount of drugs. Very, very rarely would we stop something dangerous in progress or stop something from happening entirely. The closest we could usually get was seeing someone running away from the scene of a crime, but the damage was still done.

    And consider this: my job as a police officer required me to be a marriage counselor, a mental health crisis professional, a conflict negotiator, a social worker, a child advocate, a traffic safety expert, a sexual assault specialist, and, every once in awhile, a public safety officer authorized to use force, all after only a 1000 hours of training at a police academy. Does the person we send to catch a robber also need to be the person we send to interview a rape victim or document a fender bender? Should one profession be expected to do all that important community care (with very little training) all at the same time?

    To put this another way: I made double the salary most social workers made to do a fraction of what they could do to mitigate the causes of crimes and desperation. I can count very few times my monopoly on state violence actually made our citizens safer, and even then, it's hard to say better-funded social safety nets and dozens of other community care specialists wouldn't have prevented a problem before it started.

    Armed, indoctrinated (and dare I say, traumatized) cops do not make you safer; community mutual aid networks who can unite other people with the resources they need to stay fed, clothed, and housed make you safer. I really want to hammer this home: every cop in your neighborhood is damaged by their training, emboldened by their immunity, and they have a gun and the ability to take your life with near-impunity. This does not make you safer, even if you're white.

    HOW DO YOU SOLVE A PROBLEM LIKE A BASTARD?

    So what do we do about it? Even though I'm an expert on bastardism, I am not a public policy expert nor an expert in organizing a post-police society. So, before I give some suggestions, let me tell you what probably won't solve the problem of bastard cops:

    Increased "bias" training. A quarterly or even monthly training session is not capable of covering over years of trauma-based camaraderie in police forces. I can tell you from experience, we don't take it seriously, the proctors let us cheat on whatever "tests" there are, and we all made fun of it later over coffee.

    Tougher laws. I hope you understand by now, cops do not follow the law and will not hold each other accountable to the law. Tougher laws are all the more reason to circle the wagons and protect your brothers and sisters.

    More community policing programs. Yes, there is a marginal effect when a few cops get to know members of the community, but look at the protests of 2020: many of the cops pepper-spraying journalists were probably the nice school cop a month ago.

    Police officers do not protect and serve people, they protect and serve the status quo, "polite society", and private property. Using the incremental mechanisms of the status quo will never reform the police because the status quo relies on police violence to exist. Capitalism requires a permanent underclass to exploit for cheap labor and it requires the cops to bring that underclass to heel.

    Instead of wasting time with minor tweaks, I recommend exploring the following ideas:

    No more qualified immunity. Police officers should be personally liable for all decisions they make in the line of duty.

    No more civil asset forfeiture. Did you know that every year, citizens like you lose more cash and property to unaccountable civil asset forfeiture than to all burglaries combined? The police can steal your stuff without charging you with a crime and it makes some police departments very rich.

    Break the power of police unions. Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. A police union is not a labor union; police officers are powerful state agents, not exploited workers.

    Require malpractice insurance. Doctors must pay for insurance in case they botch a surgery, police officers should do the same for botching a police raid or other use of force. If human decency won't motivate police to respect human life, perhaps hitting their wallet might.

    Defund, demilitarize, and disarm cops. Thousands of police departments own assault rifles, armored personnel carriers, and stuff you'd see in a warzone. Police officers have grants and huge budgets to spend on guns, ammo, body armor, and combat training. 99% of calls for service require no armed response, yet when all you have is a gun, every problem feels like target practice. Cities are not safer when unaccountable bullies have a monopoly on state violence and the equipment to execute that monopoly.

    One final idea: consider abolishing the police.

    I know what you're thinking, "What? We need the police! They protect us!" As someone who did it for nearly a decade, I need you to understand that by and large, police protection is marginal, incidental. It's an illusion created by decades of copaganda designed to fool you into thinking these brave men and women are holding back the barbarians at the gates.

    I alluded to this above: the vast majority of calls for service I handled were theft reports, burglary reports, domestic arguments that hadn't escalated into violence, loud parties, (houseless) people loitering, traffic collisions, very minor drug possession, and arguments between neighbors. Mostly the mundane ups and downs of life in the community, with little inherent danger. And, like I mentioned, the vast majority of crimes I responded to (even violent ones) had already happened; my unaccountable license to kill was irrelevant.

    What I mainly provided was an "objective" third party with the authority to document property damage, ask people to chill out or disperse, or counsel people not to beat each other up. A trained counselor or conflict resolution specialist would be ten times more effective than someone with a gun strapped to his hip wondering if anyone would try to kill him when he showed up. There are many models for community safety that can be explored if we get away from the idea that the only way to be safe is to have a man with a M4 rifle prowling your neighborhood ready at a moment's notice to write down your name and birthday after you've been robbed and beaten.

    You might be asking, "What about the armed robbers, the gangsters, the drug dealers, the serial killers?" And yes, in the city I worked, I regularly broke up gang parties, found gang members carrying guns, and handled homicides. I've seen some tragic things, from a reformed gangster shot in the head with his brains oozing out to a fifteen year old boy taking his last breath in his screaming mother's arms thanks to a gang member's bullet. I know the wages of violence.

    This is where we have to have the courage to ask: why do people rob? Why do they join gangs? Why do they get addicted to drugs or sell them? It's not because they are inherently evil. I submit to you that these are the results of living in a capitalist system that grinds people down and denies them housing, medical care, human dignity, and a say in their government. These are the results of white supremacy pushing people to the margins, excluding them, disrespecting them, and treating their bodies as disposable.

    Equally important to remember: disabled and mentally ill people are frequently killed by police officers not trained to recognize and react to disabilities or mental health crises. Some of the people we picture as "violent offenders" are often people struggling with untreated mental illness, often due to economic hardships. Very frequently, the officers sent to "protect the community" escalate this crisis and ultimately wound or kill the person. Your community was not made safer by police violence; a sick member of your community was killed because it was cheaper than treating them. Are you extremely confident you'll never get sick one day too?

    Wrestle with this for a minute: if all of someone's material needs were met and all the members of their community were fed, clothed, housed, and dignified, why would they need to join a gang? Why would they need to risk their lives selling drugs or breaking into buildings? If mental healthcare was free and was not stigmatized, how many lives would that save?

    Would there still be a few bad actors in the world? Sure, probably. What's my solution for them, you're no doubt asking. I'll tell you what: generational poverty, food insecurity, houselessness, and for-profit medical care are all problems that can be solved in our lifetimes by rejecting the dehumanizing meat grinder of capitalism and white supremacy. Once that's done, we can work on the edge cases together, with clearer hearts not clouded by a corrupt system.

    Police abolition is closely related to the idea of prison abolition and the entire concept of banishing the carceral state, meaning, creating a society focused on reconciliation and restorative justice instead of punishment, pain, and suffering — a system that sees people in crisis as humans, not monsters. People who want to abolish the police typically also want to abolish prisons, and the same questions get asked: "What about the bad guys? Where do we put them?" I bring this up because abolitionists don't want to simply replace cops with armed social workers or prisons with casual detention centers full of puffy leather couches and Playstations. We imagine a world not divided into good guys and bad guys, but rather a world where people's needs are met and those in crisis receive care, not dehumanization.

    Here's legendary activist and thinker Angela Y. Davis putting it better than I ever could:

    "An abolitionist approach that seeks to answer questions such as these would require us to imagine a constellation of alternative strategies and institutions, with the ultimate aim of removing the prison from the social and ideological landscapes of our society. In other words, we would not be looking for prisonlike substitutes for the prison, such as house arrest safeguarded by electronic surveillance bracelets. Rather, positing decarceration as our overarching strategy, we would try to envision a continuum of alternatives to imprisonment-demilitarization of schools, revitalization of education at all levels, a health system that provides free physical and mental care to all, and a justice system based on reparation and reconciliation rather than retribution and vengeance."
    (Are Prisons Obsolete, pg. 107)

    I'm not telling you I have the blueprint for a beautiful new world. What I'm telling you is that the system we have right now is broken beyond repair and that it's time to consider new ways of doing community together. Those new ways need to be negotiated by members of those communities, particularly Black, indigenous, disabled, houseless, and citizens of color historically shoved into the margins of society. Instead of letting Fox News fill your head with nightmares about Hispanic gangs, ask the Hispanic community what they need to thrive. Instead of letting racist politicians scaremonger about pro-Black demonstrators, ask the Black community what they need to meet the needs of the most vulnerable. If you truly desire safety, ask not what your most vulnerable can do for the community, ask what the community can do for the most vulnerable.

    A WORLD WITH FEWER BASTARDS IS POSSIBLE

    If you take only one thing away from this essay, I hope it's this: do not talk to cops. But if you only take two things away, I hope the second one is that it's possible to imagine a different world where unarmed black people, indigenous people, poor people, disabled people, and people of color are not routinely gunned down by unaccountable police officers. It doesn't have to be this way. Yes, this requires a leap of faith into community models that might feel unfamiliar, but I ask you:

    When you see a man dying in the street begging for breath, don't you want to leap away from that world?

    When you see a mother or a daughter shot to death sleeping in their beds, don't you want to leap away from that world?

    When you see a twelve year old boy executed in a public park for the crime of playing with a toy, jesus fucking christ, can you really just stand there and think "This is normal"?

    And to any cops who made it this far down, is this really the world you want to live in? Aren't you tired of the trauma? Aren't you tired of the soul sickness inherent to the badge? Aren't you tired of looking the other way when your partners break the law? Are you really willing to kill the next George Floyd, the next Breonna Taylor, the next Tamir Rice? How confident are you that your next use of force will be something you're proud of? I'm writing this for you too: it's wrong what our training did to us, it's wrong that they hardened our hearts to our communities, and it's wrong to pretend this is normal.

    Look, I wouldn't have been able to hear any of this for much of my life. You reading this now may not be able to hear this yet either. But do me this one favor: just think about it. Just turn it over in your mind for a couple minutes. "Yes, And" me for a minute. Look around you and think about the kind of world you want to live in. Is it one where an all-powerful stranger with a gun keeps you and your neighbors in line with the fear of death, or can you picture a world where, as a community, we embrace our most vulnerable, meet their needs, heal their wounds, honor their dignity, and make them family instead of desperate outsiders?

    If you take only three things away from this essay, I hope the third is this: you and your community don't need bastards to thrive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 02:49:49 AM
Ok well that basically confirmed my worst suspicions. But I will also say it is not anything that has not been reported endlessly in culture for a long time. I think there are a lot of good ideas in there for police reform.

Obviously as a big proponent of Universal Basic Income I certainly anticipate a significant reduction in criminal activity but I have a hard time believing that there will be no need for law enforcement or prisons at all just because we do away with white supremacy or capitalism. Plenty of people commit horrible acts for all kind of reasons that do not necessarily result from their place in society or economic situation. Jerry Sandusky wasn't oppressed by white supremacy or a desperate economic situation. But certainly having fewer people in desperate straights living in hopeless communities would go a long way.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2020, 03:15:31 AM
That Pike statue is really strange. He even said he didn't want any statue of himself. So... I guess he's happy now? I've been a supporter of the removal of a lot of the monuments that have come down so far, but in San Fran tonight they toppled and defaced a Grant statue. On Juneteenth. That is just in incredibly poor taste in my opinion and both shows poor understanding of history and does a lot of damage to the ideas behind the efforts of statue removal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 20, 2020, 03:49:41 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2020, 03:15:31 AM
That Pike statue is really strange. He even said he didn't want any statue of himself. So... I guess he's happy now? I've been a supporter of the removal of a lot of the monuments that have come down so far, but in San Fran tonight they toppled and defaced a Grant statue. On Juneteenth. That is just in incredibly poor taste in my opinion and both shows poor understanding of history and does a lot of damage to the ideas behind the efforts of statue removal.

Agreed though I could see an argument that he was president during much of the Reconstruction era.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2020, 03:53:35 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 20, 2020, 03:49:41 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2020, 03:15:31 AM
That Pike statue is really strange. He even said he didn't want any statue of himself. So... I guess he's happy now? I've been a supporter of the removal of a lot of the monuments that have come down so far, but in San Fran tonight they toppled and defaced a Grant statue. On Juneteenth. That is just in incredibly poor taste in my opinion and both shows poor understanding of history and does a lot of damage to the ideas behind the efforts of statue removal.

Agreed though I could see an argument that he was president during much of the Reconstruction era.
Which, if seen through properly, could have fast-forwarded the Civil Rights movement about 80 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 20, 2020, 03:56:30 AM
But it wasn't so that's where a negative legacy for him comes in.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 20, 2020, 03:56:30 AM
But it wasn't so that's where a negative legacy for him comes in.

How is that his fault though? Hayes was the guy who ended it.

I mean one might say he could have done a better job but does that deserve getting your statue defaced because you tried to do something good and failed?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 20, 2020, 04:17:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 20, 2020, 03:56:30 AM
But it wasn't so that's where a negative legacy for him comes in.

How is that his fault though? Hayes was the guy who ended it.

I mean one might say he could have done a better job but does that deserve getting your statue defaced because you tried to do something good and failed?

First off, I doubt dead Grant can care about his statue. I also don't think 'deserves' really has a place when talking about what should or shouldn't happen with statues.

Lastly, I already said I agreed with BA that it is s a shame but was positing a reason for why someone could have a negative view of Grant. Given the amount of great man hype given by our culture to figures like Washington and Lincoln, seems a bit odd to think Grant would then just get a pass for what happened during his administration.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:26:47 AM
I don't think Grant should get a pass. I thought you were providing an explanation why possibly it was justified even if you didn't necessarily think so.

Ok so what does have a place when discussing the defacement of public monuments? Surely a discussion about whether or not that action was justified is appropriate. Perhaps semantically deserving was not the right word.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 04:58:35 AM
Whether a statue deserves to be torn down/defaced is what separates a political statement from simple vandalism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 20, 2020, 08:55:03 AM
The battle between iconoclasts and iconodules is always a struggle to the death.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 20, 2020, 09:10:18 AM
I guess I can understand why some people feel the need to destroy a statue of U.S. Grant, but I can't say I feel the same.

But, uh, I thought maybe it would be neo-confederate racists who would do it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 20, 2020, 09:10:18 AM
I guess I can understand why some people feel the need to destroy a statue of U.S. Grant, but I can't say I feel the same.

But, uh, I thought maybe it would be neo-confederate racists who would do it.

I don't think any more thought went into it than "we are now allowed to destroy statues of old dudes".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 20, 2020, 09:41:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on June 20, 2020, 09:10:18 AM
I guess I can understand why some people feel the need to destroy a statue of U.S. Grant, but I can't say I feel the same.

But, uh, I thought maybe it would be neo-confederate racists who would do it.

I don't think any more thought went into it than "we are now allowed to destroy statues of old dudes".

  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on June 20, 2020, 09:45:36 AM
Media over here report that the Cervantes statue at Golden Park was vandalised too, which is kinda funny since you know, he was also enslaved himself  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 10:40:16 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 20, 2020, 09:45:36 AM
Media over here report that the Cervantes statue at Golden Park was vandalised too, which is kinda funny since you know, he was also enslaved himself  :hmm:

:secret:

Slavery or even slave trade by Muslims, does not count for the woke crowd.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 11:19:05 AM
If you see any statues of Muslim slavers, let us know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 20, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 11:19:05 AM
If you see any statues of Muslim slavers, let us know.

Only white slavers matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.

Well, start by the infamous Leopold II. He did fight muslim slavers.  :P
Among other things...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 01:35:47 PM
It doesn't have to be a high priority, just acknowledged when relevant. I don't think that is too much to ask.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 01:35:47 PM
It doesn't have to be a high priority, just acknowledged when relevant. I don't think that is too much to ask.

It's very rarely relevant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.

Well, start by the infamous Leopold II. He did fight muslim slavers.  :P
Among other things...

Does that action exonerate mass murder?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:40:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 01:35:47 PM
It doesn't have to be a high priority, just acknowledged when relevant. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Such as when the woke crowd is bringing up Tintin in the Congo, reminding them of the Red Sea Sharks album?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.

Well, start by the infamous Leopold II. He did fight muslim slavers.  :P
Among other things...

Does that action exonerate mass murder?

Nope, but thanks for the strawman.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.

Well, start by the infamous Leopold II. He did fight muslim slavers.  :P
Among other things...

Does that action exonerate mass murder?

Nope, but thanks for the strawman.

Then I fail to see your point. There are no statues to Muslim slavers, nor do Western countries celebrate them. Your post implies that we should celebrate Leopold II's victories over Muslim slavers, presumably instead of condemning his mass murder and own actions as a slaver. If you have an actual point worth discussing, try posting it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
It's very rarely relevant.

It seems relevant to the issues of collective guilt and/or reparations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
It's very rarely relevant.

It seems relevant to the issues of collective guilt and/or reparations.

Who is talking about collective guilt?

And reparations are, for better or for worse, tied to existing states and polities. As far as I know, that movement is aimed at the existing polities of the US, or the UK (and maybe France), who both sponsored and used enslaved labor, while wishing to uphold democratic values and aspirations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 01:59:45 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 01:35:47 PM
It doesn't have to be a high priority, just acknowledged when relevant. I don't think that is too much to ask.

It's very rarely relevant.

True, but in our globalized culture it does come up from time to time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 02:00:01 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.

Well, start by the infamous Leopold II. He did fight muslim slavers.  :P
Among other things...

Does that action exonerate mass murder?

Nope, but thanks for the strawman.

Then I fail to see your point. There are no statues to Muslim slavers, nor do Western countries celebrate them. Your post implies that we should celebrate Leopold II's victories over Muslim slavers, presumably instead of condemning his mass murder and own actions as a slaver. If you have an actual point worth discussing, try posting it.

There are statues of Muslim slavers in muslim countries, I suggest you do a bit of (virtual) research in say, Somalia:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Gragne.jpg)
However, Somalia right now has other concerns and nobody cares about that statue anymore.

As for Western countries, that's hardly surprising, some of them were victim of muslim slavers until the 19th century, no shit Sherlock! Guess what ended it in the Mediterranean.
You missed that part obviously along with the Cervantes reference. Try looking for the etymology of "!Moros en la Costa!" in Castilian while you are at it.

So yes, not point discussing with somebody like you so ignorant of slavery and the slave trade, oriental-style.

PS: Leopold II has often been accused of genocide through negligence and outright despise for human life, hence the (tongue in cheek) comparison with Nazis and Fascists. Not surprised part of the woke crowd did not get it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:53:42 PM
Who is talking about collective guilt?

I, for one.

QuoteAnd reparations are, for better or for worse, tied to existing states and polities. As far as I know, that movement is aimed at the existing polities of the US, or the UK (and maybe France), who both sponsored and used enslaved labor, while wishing to uphold democratic values and aspirations.

I'm aware who it's aimed at: the deepest pockets and the people most susceptible to feelings of guilt.  As you said, for better or worse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 20, 2020, 02:07:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
It's very rarely relevant.

It seems relevant to the issues of collective guilt and/or reparations.

Not if both those things are non-starters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 02:09:32 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 20, 2020, 02:07:42 PM
Not if both those things are non-starters.

Collective guilt is hardly a non-starter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 20, 2020, 02:25:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:53:42 PM
Who is talking about collective guilt?

I, for one.

QuoteAnd reparations are, for better or for worse, tied to existing states and polities. As far as I know, that movement is aimed at the existing polities of the US, or the UK (and maybe France), who both sponsored and used enslaved labor, while wishing to uphold democratic values and aspirations.

I'm aware who it's aimed at: the deepest pockets and the people most susceptible to feelings of guilt.  As you said, for better or worse.

I mean, promises were made too. It's not just Fox News talk of white guilt here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2020, 02:25:36 PM
I mean, promises were made too. It's not just Fox News talk of white guilt here.

Expansion of the collective responsibility does not mean a denial of the original narrow collective responsibility.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 03:27:53 PM
Muslims slavers don't really matter because they were no leaders or prominent figures of the countries were these protests are. Notice how there are no protests in Muslim countries to tear down slaver statues. That's because the few who do want to tear them down are afraid to demand that publicly.

They also do not matter because everyone holds the Muslim countries to different standards, chief among them are the leftist activists, most of whom think that patronising does not equal looking down on them (but in fact it does). I find the right's disinterest in them a bit more honest than that, at least they consider themselves superior fairly openly.

The only way they do matter is to try and keep in bay the hopefully still minority activists/"historians" who consider and advertise the terrible slaver societies of the East like the Ottomans and the Mongols as some kind of a multicultural melting pot paradise where everyone was equal. Reminding the public that those in fact was vile tyrannys of a small warrior elite is useful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 03:32:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2020, 02:25:36 PM
I mean, promises were made too. It's not just Fox News talk of white guilt here.

Expansion of the collective responsibility does not mean a denial of the original narrow collective responsibility.

I don't understand your point about guilt.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2020, 03:50:02 PM
I'm quite certain that people in Muslim majority countries have torn down statutes before, for various reasons. If Muslims in those countries want to tear down statues of prominent slavers, I doubt American or European leftists would complain.

The fact that American and European leftists are not travelling to Muslim majority countries to tear down statues there does not seem to me evidence of hypocrisy or inconsistency.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Has that god-awful Ronaldo bust come down yet?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 03:27:53 PMThe only way they do matter is to try and keep in bay the hopefully still minority activists/"historians" who consider and advertise the terrible slaver societies of the East like the Ottomans and the Mongols as some kind of a multicultural melting pot paradise where everyone was equal.

I don't know of any professional historian who ever prop up the Ottoman, or the Mongol Empire as idyllic polities. Things may be different for conservative historians in Erdogan's Turkey, who really promotes the study of the Ottoman Empire for his own propaganda reasons. 

Actual discussions of the Ottoman Empire as a place of tolerance means just that: tolerance, in the early modern sense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 03:27:53 PMThe only way they do matter is to try and keep in bay the hopefully still minority activists/"historians" who consider and advertise the terrible slaver societies of the East like the Ottomans and the Mongols as some kind of a multicultural melting pot paradise where everyone was equal.

I don't know of any professional historian who ever prop up the Ottoman, or the Mongol Empire as idyllic polities. Things may be different for conservative historians in Erdogan's Turkey, who really promotes the study of the Ottoman Empire for his own propaganda reasons. 

Actual discussions of the Ottoman Empire as a place of tolerance means just that: tolerance, in the early modern sense.

What is that early modern stance? I am asking as a descendant of a people whose population got more than decimated by Ottoman tolerance over a century, and who were regularly and by the tens if not the hundreds of thousands got toleranced away into Ottoman slavery.

I do not like relativising away the sins of slavery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Has that god-awful Ronaldo bust come down yet?

There is a new one, but not in Madeira.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPoViRUW0AAk4uO.jpg)

OTOH, the Cristovão Colombo statue in Madeira, where he lived for quite a while, still stands.  :hmm:

PS: the first sculptor said one can't please everyone, yet he pretty much managed to do the opposite.
After checking, there are at least one in Madeira, one in the Azores, plus one in mainland Portugal, that is Cuba (!), Alentejo.  :D
Probably shown in the Manoel de Oliveira about him "Cristovão Colombo, o Enigma".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 04:31:29 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 03:32:04 PM
I don't understand your point about guilt.

Some people argue that the US/white people owe a debt to descendants of slaves for the sins of slavery and the sins of Jim Crow, if not in money terms then in at least in terms of feelings of responsibility and guilt.  I say that responsibility should be extended to include black African slavers.  And, incidentally, narrowed down in the US to include only those who benefited from, participated in, and fought for slavery, and participated and supported Jim Crow, and exclude those who shed blood to end it.  Which, coincidentally, as a descendent on my father's side of Scotch-Irish indentured servants who settled in the north, leaves me completely off the hook.

Muslim slavery is different only in that those taken included white Europeans. Justice is supposed to be blind and principles are supposed to be universal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 04:35:05 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 03:53:22 PM
Has that god-awful Ronaldo bust come down yet?

There is a new one, but not in Madeira.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPoViRUW0AAk4uO.jpg)

OTOH, the Cristovão Colombo statue in Madeira, where he lived for quite a while, still stands.  :hmm:

PS: the first sculptor said one can't please everyone, yet he pretty much managed to do the opposite.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 04:35:43 PM
Dude does have a freakishly long neck.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:44:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:23:34 PMWhat is that early modern stance? I am asking as a descendant of a people whose population got more than decimated by Ottoman tolerance over a century, and who were regularly and by the tens if not the hundreds of thousands got toleranced away into Ottoman slavery.

I do not like relativising away the sins of slavery.

Tolerance in the early modern era is that some groups are granted the status of corporate bodies that are allowed collective representation, certain rights (again, in the early modern sense), and therefore a certain right to autonomous existence. In short, if you pay your dues, and pay your respects, that's fine, and you are largely left to your own devices. This is why, for instance, many Jews in Revolutionary France actually lamented the end of their corporate bodies, which nevertheless enshrined certain forms of discrimination. The emancipation of Jews by the Revolution meant an end to their collective representations.

No one in the right mind would hold that early modern polities were not violent, and could unleash devastating violence. The point is to understand how that violence may be different, or similar, to what was happening elsewhere, at the time. A wide variety of conditions are subsumed under the word "slavery", and its evils are inevitably going to be felt much more keenly in societies that have stark, absolute definitions of freedom, than in societies where individual freedom is a fleeting, elusive condition that actually concern very few people.

In that regard, Atlantic chattel slavery represented an innovation for the time, and largely contributed to the emergence of racism as an ideology - in ways that the Indian Ocean trade, or the razzia-based captivity of the Mediterranean, or the "flower wars" of Meso-America, did not. 

As a historian living in North America, I think that the sort of racism that emerged out of the large-scale experience of Atlantic chattel slavery shapes much more powerfully our world than, say, the razzia-based Mediterranean slave and ransom trade. I am sure some of the historical memory of the Barbary and Maltese Corsairs still lingers in how, say, European people see Muslims, and I am sure there is, in the very real racism towards Africans in the Gulf country, some remnants from the Indian Ocean trade. But racialization got its boost from that specific form of slavery that was practiced around the Atlantic World.

The thing is: people who bring up the other slave trades rarely do so in the name of historical accuracy. They do so as a political point to project back onto contemporary polities to either absolve contemporary polities from taking any meaningful or substantive action, or to deflect attention to other, preferred targets. I just wish they would be honest in their aims.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:48:09 PM
QuoteAs a historian living in North America, I think that the sort of racism that emerged out of the large-scale experience of Atlantic chattel slavery shapes much more powerfully our world than, say, the razzia-based Mediterranean slave and ransom trade.

In other words, as a North American historian, you think that North American style slavery had a much more profound effect on the world than Eurasian style slavery. Splendid. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:55:14 PM
By the way did anybody read the amazing article Syt posted earlier? I mean not to hijack the statue thread or anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 04:31:29 PMSome people argue that the US/white people owe a debt to descendants of slaves for the sins of slavery and the sins of Jim Crow, if not in money terms then in at least in terms of feelings of responsibility and guilt.  I say that responsibility should be extended to include black African slavers.  And, incidentally, narrowed down in the US to include only those who benefited from, participated in, and fought for slavery, and participated and supported Jim Crow, and exclude those who shed blood to end it.  Which, coincidentally, as a descendent on my father's side of Scotch-Irish indentured servants who settled in the north, leaves me completely off the hook.

I think that's why the christian language of guilt is not helpful. I am happy to talk about sin, because, at least, in the Christian tradition, it's also universal.

The US, as a polity - that is, as an actual State - was indeed complicit in the maintaining of a system of racial inequality that has had considerable consequences upon a large proportion of people it now claims to be its citizens. Because race is something no single individual controls, "guilt", if you insist, is inevitably shared. Your ancestors may not have directly participated in the slave trade, but they benefited necessarily from advantages granted white people, and denied black people (or Indigenous people). The list of these advantages is well-known - from immunity from prosecution for violence committed, to the worth of testimonies, to access to education, etc. etc. These advantages have been perpetuated for centuries, continue to be, and have compounded themselves to the extent that the current population of black Americans still, by most quantifiable measure, does exceptionally poorly when compared to white.

Is this a problem? I believe it is. I believe the source of that problem lies precisely in that "original sin". It's not like, say, the Roman Empire, which obviously no longer exist: the US is still there, and it still claims to be the same polity that existed since 1783. My personal guilt, or responsibility, or that of my ancestors, is ultimately irrelevant. It is, and ought to be, a show of solidarity for the current, existing polity of the United States, to repair that historical injustice that *has still considerable consequences to this day*. Because you are a citizen of the United States, you are inevitably bound by this injustice. It has nothing to do with guilt. The same way that, for historical reasons, the US bound itself to France and the UK, and to their fate, and when it declared war on Germany, sent Americans to die for France and the UK regardless of their personal preferences, or their individual ancestry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:04:00 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:48:09 PMIn other words, as a North American historian, you think that North American style slavery had a much more profound effect on the world than Eurasian style slavery. Splendid. :P

As a North American historian who has team-taught classes about freedom and slavery with colleagues working on the Ottoman Empire and China, yes. It's absolutely a point I would argue. Conversely, early-modern Chinese imperialism may have had a more profound effect on the world than early-modern European imperialism. Neither means that slavery in Persia, or warfare in the Andes was great or benign. 

A useful distinction, in the history of slavery, is between "societies with slaves" and "slave societies". The first are societies where slavery existed. The second, where slavery structured the very polity itself. None of the East Asian societies that I know of structured themselves around the institution of slavery the way that, say, Jamaica did. The Ottoman Empire, and its Janissaries, is perhaps the most hybrid case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 05:04:18 PM
That's a reasonable way to put it Ucks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 05:04:18 PM
That's a reasonable way to put it Ucks.

:cheers:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 20, 2020, 05:13:00 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 20, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on June 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM
They're the only ones that have statues of them and are still an issue in our society.

When Nazis and fascists start rallying around statues of the Sultan of Zanzibar, I'll consider Muslim slavers a higher priority.

Well, start by the infamous Leopold II. He did fight muslim slavers.  :P
Among other things...

Does that action exonerate mass murder?

Nope, but thanks for the strawman.

Then I fail to see your point. There are no statues to Muslim slavers, nor do Western countries celebrate them. Your post implies that we should celebrate Leopold II's victories over Muslim slavers, presumably instead of condemning his mass murder and own actions as a slaver. If you have an actual point worth discussing, try posting it.


His point is that Muslims are bad.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 05:13:59 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:04:00 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:48:09 PMIn other words, as a North American historian, you think that North American style slavery had a much more profound effect on the world than Eurasian style slavery. Splendid. :P

As a North American historian who has team-taught classes about freedom and slavery with colleagues working on the Ottoman Empire and China, yes. It's absolutely a point I would argue. Conversely, early-modern Chinese imperialism may have had a more profound effect on the world than early-modern European imperialism. Neither means that slavery in Persia, or warfare in the Andes was great or benign. 

A useful distinction, in the history of slavery, is between "societies with slaves" and "slave societies". The first are societies where slavery existed. The second, where slavery structured the very polity itself. None of the East Asian societies that I know of structured themselves around the institution of slavery the way that, say, Jamaica did. The Ottoman Empire, and its Janissaries, is perhaps the most hybrid case.

So do you argue that the slavery perpetrated by the Ottomans etc. are less condemn-able than the North American one, on the grounds of it being less intertwined into the fabrics of the state (let's just assume that's true for the Ottomans, although I am very sceptical on that part).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 05:15:38 PM
Was Canada a slave society or a society with slaves?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 05:19:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 05:15:38 PM
Was Canada a slave society or a society with slaves?

Was Stalinist Russia a slave society or a society with slaves?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 05:21:23 PM
What gets wetter the more it dries?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 05:21:38 PM
Well that's different.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 05:26:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 05:21:38 PM
Well that's different.

Have you ever been to Canada?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 05:13:59 PMSo do you argue that the slavery perpetrated by the Ottomans etc. are less condemn-able than the North American one, on the grounds of it being less intertwined into the fabrics of the state (let's just assume that's true for the Ottomans, although I am very sceptical on that part).

No. That's not at all what I am saying. I live in the 21st century. Slavery is bad. Is this really under discussion?

What I am saying is that the deflection "but the Ottoman did it too" is never motivated by a desire to understand the role and place of the Ottoman practices of slavery, or the nuances of unfreedom in the early-modern world. It stems from a desire to either point the finger at Muslims *today* and to deflect the case for reparations in the US/the UK/France *today*.

Now, if you want to push me, as a historian, to ask whether I would have preferred to live as a slave in the 18th century Caribbean or as an enslaved Christian in 18th century Algiers, I would absolutely pick Algiers. Because Mediterranean slavery was understood to be a temporary condition. There were religious orders entirely dedicated to buying captives back. Most of the work was domestic, not the sort done in sugar plantation where life expectancy after arrival was 7 years, your body horribly maimed and mutilated, etc. And, as pertain to my point, in the world beyond slavery, as a presumably white captive Christian, after winning my freedom I would still be white. A freed black man in the Caribbean remained black.

After that, we can discuss a myriad of options: was being a Janissary in Istanbul better than a free person of color in Cap Français? Was it better to be working as an enslaved person in the fields in Eswatini or in the fields of the Illinois country? These are interesting thought experiments that help us define the contours of freedom, unfreedom (and test our notions of comfort), but one needs to participate in a good faith discussion. And who knows, maybe future research on slavery in the mainland Ottoman Empire, or in Persia, will shed light on similarly gruesome, chattel-like conditions as existed in the Caribbean. So far, however, it doesn't seem to have been the case, and certainly not up to the scale seen in the Atlantic World.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2020, 05:31:18 PM
Phew. I was worried for a while that no one would tell Tampax what his point is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:31:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 05:15:38 PM
Was Canada a slave society or a society with slaves?

Society with slaves. It did not depend on slavery for its production, social organization, etc. A case may be made that New France's later indigenous alliances depended upon the maintaining of a slave trade with Indigenous people.

Again, this is a heuristic device, not a cataloguing one. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 05:34:43 PM
I guess I was thinking how Pennsylvania, despite the Quakers at most tolerating it and having small numbers of them, could still be considered a slave society if we go by Oex's definition. I was just curious about Canada....

But really what I want is that people read Syt's article and talk about this stuff so I should probably stop. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 05:37:13 PM
I will take that as a yes then, Oex. :) I do appreciate the explanation and of course I would also gamble on choosing the not as well documented slavery conditions over the well documented ones.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 05:39:43 PM
Quibble about the North African version.  The Barbary states used slaves in galleys.  I've also read of slaves being used in mines and for construction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 06:17:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 05:39:43 PM
Quibble about the North African version.  The Barbary states used slaves in galleys.  I've also read of slaves being used in mines and for construction.

Sure, but by the 18th century, galleys were mostly out, and the big architectural projects of the early Ottoman Empire in Constantinople, that employed hundreds of captives, had ceased. The copper mines of Northern Anatolia, and the marble quarries of the Greek Islands were also spaces where the Ottoman Empire employed slaves in the 17th and 18th century. But, by the most recent accounts, these represented perhaps 400-600 captives in total. The overwhelming majority of enslaved people in the Ottoman Empire were urban, and served as either craftsmen (silk workers are famous example) or servants.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 06:40:21 PM
So a society using slaves as skilled labour and elite soldiers somehow has slavery less integrated into itself than the one using slaves exclusively for very low skill jobs?   :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 06:43:58 PM
Strange factoid from the Econ obit for George Floyd: he worked as a bouncer in a Mexican club alongside a white, off duty cop, the same one who killed him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 20, 2020, 06:46:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 06:43:58 PM
Strange factoid from the Econ obit for George Floyd: he worked as a bouncer in a Mexican club alongside a white, off duty cop, the same one who killed him.

Came out awhile ago. Welcome to the present... :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 06:49:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 20, 2020, 06:46:14 PM
Came out awhile ago. Welcome to the present... :P

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 07:47:08 PM
Didn't hear of it before. Maybe he had some dirt on the cop,and that's why the cop took what seemed like an easy chance to kill a black guy in broad daylight?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2020, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 07:47:08 PM
Didn't hear of it before. Maybe he had some dirt on the cop,and that's why the cop took what seemed like an easy chance to kill a black guy in broad daylight?

There's no evidence that they ever interacted in any but the most casual manner.  Floyd worked inside, and Chauvin outside.  Floyd was a regular Tuesday employee, and Chauvin just an occasional employee, so they'd not have worked the same nights often.

Chauvin had been working there for many years, but Floyd for only a few months, before Covid closed the place.  Not a lot of room for interaction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 20, 2020, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 20, 2020, 04:17:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 20, 2020, 03:56:30 AM
But it wasn't so that's where a negative legacy for him comes in.

How is that his fault though? Hayes was the guy who ended it.

I mean one might say he could have done a better job but does that deserve getting your statue defaced because you tried to do something good and failed?

First off, I doubt dead Grant can care about his statue. I also don't think 'deserves' really has a place when talking about what should or shouldn't happen with statues.

Lastly, I already said I agreed with BA that it is s a shame but was positing a reason for why someone could have a negative view of Grant. Given the amount of great man hype given by our culture to figures like Washington and Lincoln, seems a bit odd to think Grant would then just get a pass for what happened during his administration.
Grant is the only president between between Lincoln and LBJ to vigorously protect African American civil rights. He used the military to crush the Klan. He should be lauded for that. It's not his fault that Rutherford gave up on reconstruction, nor that Andrew Johnson sabotaged the effort before Grant became president.

If Grant should be criticized for anything, it's his Indian policy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 20, 2020, 08:54:08 PM
Maybe they didn't know who it was.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 20, 2020, 10:44:06 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point, but my impression is that a main difference between slavery in North America and enslavement of Hungarians by Ottomans is that one still has profound effects on the formerly enslaved today. At least I'm not aware of Hungarians currently living as sizable  disadvantaged minority in a Turkish dominated country. :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 10:47:14 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 20, 2020, 10:44:06 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point, but my impression is that a main difference between slavery in North America and enslavement of Hungarians by Ottomans is that one still has profound effects on the formerly enslaved today. At least I'm not aware of Hungarians currently living as sizable  disadvantaged minority in a Turkish dominated country. :unsure:

Of course. If black people had no problems in the US the whole slavery thing would largely just be a historical curiosity for nerds to talk about.

Having said that I am sure Hungarian Nationalists use that to show the world is against Hungary, it would probably still be used the same way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 20, 2020, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:55:14 PM
By the way did anybody read the amazing article Syt posted earlier? I mean not to hijack the statue thread or anything.

Guess it was TL;DR and possibly too on topic. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 10:50:07 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 20, 2020, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:55:14 PM
By the way did anybody read the amazing article Syt posted earlier? I mean not to hijack the statue thread or anything.

Guess it was TL;DR and possibly too on topic. :P

It really made me annoyed. I actually read the whole thing and wanted to have a big discussion about it but we quickly just went on our way with the statues. Ah well. Next time the police screw up and people are hot about it I will repost it  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 20, 2020, 11:00:16 PM
If we still had active mods it would be awesome if they would split out the iconoclast and slavery discussions into separate threads, but alas ...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 20, 2020, 11:22:51 PM
Wait, are you guys talking about the provocative fart article?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: PDH on June 20, 2020, 11:22:51 PM
Wait, are you guys talking about the provocative fart article?

This one: https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 21, 2020, 01:41:08 AM
I dunno. The guy said he was a violent agent of white supremacy. Either that was true or not, but either way he doesn't sound reliable.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 21, 2020, 02:00:35 AM
It seems overegged.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 02:07:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 10:47:14 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 20, 2020, 10:44:06 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point, but my impression is that a main difference between slavery in North America and enslavement of Hungarians by Ottomans is that one still has profound effects on the formerly enslaved today. At least I'm not aware of Hungarians currently living as sizable  disadvantaged minority in a Turkish dominated country. :unsure:

Of course. If black people had no problems in the US the whole slavery thing would largely just be a historical curiosity for nerds to talk about.

You think race and racism exist now? Good, then it's possible to have a discussion about how to end racism. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2020, 08:02:58 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2020, 02:00:35 AM
It seems overegged.

I had a similar feeling, it seemed a bit strange going from "bastard cop" to woke agent of change, a bit too much of a "Paul falls from his horse on the way to Damascus".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 08:51:56 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 10:47:14 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 20, 2020, 10:44:06 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point, but my impression is that a main difference between slavery in North America and enslavement of Hungarians by Ottomans is that one still has profound effects on the formerly enslaved today. At least I'm not aware of Hungarians currently living as sizable  disadvantaged minority in a Turkish dominated country. :unsure:

Of course. If black people had no problems in the US the whole slavery thing would largely just be a historical curiosity for nerds to talk about.

Having said that I am sure Hungarian Nationalists use that to show the world is against Hungary, it would probably still be used the same way.

Yes, the chattel slavery thing only really worked if the slave-owning class could make up this new concept of "race" and then convince the simple-minded that it really existed.  If people believed that races exist, then they could believe that people could and should be treated differently on the basis of their supposed "race."  Ottoman slavery existed on a different basis: that non-Muslims, regardless of their skin colors, were subject to enslavement if they did not live under the Sultan's protection.

The Ottomans, like people everywhere, weaseled out of many of the restrictions on enslaving people, but they didn't base slavery on the fiction of "race" and so former slaves (and even many existing slaves) did not receive the treatment that former slaves received in the US.  The problem in the US was the belief in race, not the slavery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 08:57:09 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 21, 2020, 08:02:58 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2020, 02:00:35 AM
It seems overegged.

I had a similar feeling, it seemed a bit strange going from "bastard cop" to woke agent of change, a bit too much of a "Paul falls from his horse on the way to Damascus".

Except that he concedes that it took him years to decide to come forward, so hardly a "Paul falls from his horse on the way to Damascus."
QuoteThis essay has been kicking around in my head for years now and I've never felt confident enough to write it.

I agree that we should take this all with a grain of salt (just like all primary sources), but his story does conform to the outside facts as we know them.  His  prescriptions are worth discussing, at least.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2020, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 04:31:29 PMSome people argue that the US/white people owe a debt to descendants of slaves for the sins of slavery and the sins of Jim Crow, if not in money terms then in at least in terms of feelings of responsibility and guilt.  I say that responsibility should be extended to include black African slavers.  And, incidentally, narrowed down in the US to include only those who benefited from, participated in, and fought for slavery, and participated and supported Jim Crow, and exclude those who shed blood to end it.  Which, coincidentally, as a descendent on my father's side of Scotch-Irish indentured servants who settled in the north, leaves me completely off the hook.

I think that's why the christian language of guilt is not helpful. I am happy to talk about sin, because, at least, in the Christian tradition, it's also universal.

The US, as a polity - that is, as an actual State - was indeed complicit in the maintaining of a system of racial inequality that has had considerable consequences upon a large proportion of people it now claims to be its citizens. Because race is something no single individual controls, "guilt", if you insist, is inevitably shared. Your ancestors may not have directly participated in the slave trade, but they benefited necessarily from advantages granted white people, and denied black people (or Indigenous people). The list of these advantages is well-known - from immunity from prosecution for violence committed, to the worth of testimonies, to access to education, etc. etc. These advantages have been perpetuated for centuries, continue to be, and have compounded themselves to the extent that the current population of black Americans still, by most quantifiable measure, does exceptionally poorly when compared to white.

Is this a problem? I believe it is. I believe the source of that problem lies precisely in that "original sin". It's not like, say, the Roman Empire, which obviously no longer exist: the US is still there, and it still claims to be the same polity that existed since 1783. My personal guilt, or responsibility, or that of my ancestors, is ultimately irrelevant. It is, and ought to be, a show of solidarity for the current, existing polity of the United States, to repair that historical injustice that *has still considerable consequences to this day*. Because you are a citizen of the United States, you are inevitably bound by this injustice. It has nothing to do with guilt. The same way that, for historical reasons, the US bound itself to France and the UK, and to their fate, and when it declared war on Germany, sent Americans to die for France and the UK regardless of their personal preferences, or their individual ancestry.

Excellent post.

I don't know why this is so hard to get through to people. It does along with the concept of white privilege.

It isn't about YOU! It is about the delta between what those with privilege experience and what those without. It isn't about guilt, or blame, or even resposibility, not really. It is about simply recognizing the consequences of our collective decisions, what that has resulted in today, and the gap between how things are, and how things ought to be, and what can be done to close it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 21, 2020, 10:50:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2020, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2020, 04:31:29 PMSome people argue that the US/white people owe a debt to descendants of slaves for the sins of slavery and the sins of Jim Crow, if not in money terms then in at least in terms of feelings of responsibility and guilt.  I say that responsibility should be extended to include black African slavers.  And, incidentally, narrowed down in the US to include only those who benefited from, participated in, and fought for slavery, and participated and supported Jim Crow, and exclude those who shed blood to end it.  Which, coincidentally, as a descendent on my father's side of Scotch-Irish indentured servants who settled in the north, leaves me completely off the hook.

I think that's why the christian language of guilt is not helpful. I am happy to talk about sin, because, at least, in the Christian tradition, it's also universal.

The US, as a polity - that is, as an actual State - was indeed complicit in the maintaining of a system of racial inequality that has had considerable consequences upon a large proportion of people it now claims to be its citizens. Because race is something no single individual controls, "guilt", if you insist, is inevitably shared. Your ancestors may not have directly participated in the slave trade, but they benefited necessarily from advantages granted white people, and denied black people (or Indigenous people). The list of these advantages is well-known - from immunity from prosecution for violence committed, to the worth of testimonies, to access to education, etc. etc. These advantages have been perpetuated for centuries, continue to be, and have compounded themselves to the extent that the current population of black Americans still, by most quantifiable measure, does exceptionally poorly when compared to white.

Is this a problem? I believe it is. I believe the source of that problem lies precisely in that "original sin". It's not like, say, the Roman Empire, which obviously no longer exist: the US is still there, and it still claims to be the same polity that existed since 1783. My personal guilt, or responsibility, or that of my ancestors, is ultimately irrelevant. It is, and ought to be, a show of solidarity for the current, existing polity of the United States, to repair that historical injustice that *has still considerable consequences to this day*. Because you are a citizen of the United States, you are inevitably bound by this injustice. It has nothing to do with guilt. The same way that, for historical reasons, the US bound itself to France and the UK, and to their fate, and when it declared war on Germany, sent Americans to die for France and the UK regardless of their personal preferences, or their individual ancestry.

Excellent post.

I don't know why this is so hard to get through to people. It does along with the concept of white privilege.

It isn't about YOU! It is about the delta between what those with privilege experience and what those without. It isn't about guilt, or blame, or even resposibility, not really. It is about simply recognizing the consequences of our collective decisions, what that has resulted in today, and the gap between how things are, and how things ought to be, and what can be done to close it.

Great posts, both.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 11:21:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 02:07:04 AM
You think race and racism exist now? Good, then it's possible to have a discussion about how to end racism. :)

I never thought racism didn't exist. I just thought it was wrong and based on pseudo-science garbage. You might think it is correct and based on facts but I am glad we both agree it should be ended.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 11:21:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 02:07:04 AM
You think race and racism exist now? Good, then it's possible to have a discussion about how to end racism. :)

I never thought racism didn't exist. I just thought it was wrong and based on pseudo-science garbage. You might think it is correct and based on facts but I am glad we both agree it should be ended.

You said that race didn't exist. Without race it's hard to have racism. See the dictionary definitions of race and racism I described. Please don't make completely groundless claims that I think racism is correct. Honestly, I expected better from you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 12:55:02 PM
It's ironic how some people think that the existence of racism proves that races exist, but would reject the idea that the existence of theism proves that gods exist.

The belief in something (even your own belief) says nothing about the existence of the subject f your belief.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on June 21, 2020, 01:11:20 PM
Yeah Brainy, WTF?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 02:44:09 PM
Race obviously exists biologically.  However, the race is all Homo Sapiens sapiens since that is the unit that fits the definition.  If anything, the expressed phenotypes displayed onto regional groups could be characterized as "sub-races" (however that is problematic due to cultural desire to rank things), but by that definition Northern Europeans are the sub-race.

All H. Sapiens sapiens can breed with viable breeding offspring.  No regional phenotypes cannot breed with other H Sapiens sapiens (there are, of course individual problems), so it is one race biologically.

Now, this obviously differs from the social definition of human races, but as that has no biological foundations, that idea (even if in a dictionary) must be a cultural construct and not a biological science finding.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 21, 2020, 02:44:09 PM
Race obviously exists biologically.  However, the race is all Homo Sapiens sapiens since that is the unit that fits the definition.  If anything, the expressed phenotypes displayed onto regional groups could be characterized as "sub-races" (however that is problematic due to cultural desire to rank things), but by that definition Northern Europeans are the sub-race.

If race "obviously exists biologically," then why don't biologists see it?  Some use the term informally, but not scientifically.

If race "obviously exists biologically," then how many races are there? 

If race "obviously exists biologically," then does every human belong to a race?  If so, how do we reliably tell to which race a person belongs, especially when they have ancestors that are "obviously... biologically" of different races?  And if everyone does NOT belong to a race, how do we distinguish between those who do belong to a race and those that do not?

If "Northern Europeans are the sub-race," then do people change race as they move about the world?  IS garbon now racially a Northern European because he lives in Northern Europe?  If sub-race doesn't change when we move, then the people who originally moved to Northern Europe kept their sub-racial identity, did they not?  And your concept of races and subraces means that people are born into the race of their parents, no?

QuoteAll H. Sapiens sapiens can breed with viable breeding offspring.  No regional phenotypes cannot breed with other H Sapiens sapiens (there are, of course individual problems), so it is one race biologically.

That is the definition of a species, not a race.

QuoteNow, this obviously differs from the social definition of human races, but as that has no biological foundations, that idea (even if in a dictionary) must be a cultural construct and not a biological science finding.

Biological use of the term "race" is informal and ill-defined (much like the cultural use of the term).

Now, none of these comments are meant for serious discussion, because they are silly on the face of them.  I ask them to show how logically indefensible the concept of separate human races is.  Genetics exists, and people inherit genes from their parents, and so resemble them, and if a group of people remain in an area and intermarry, those traits will be shared and become more common, but that doesn't create races, and increased travel is making that kind of genetic pooling less and less common anyway.

Race exists as a social construct, but it shouldn't.  Where it isn't useless except to help explain racism, it is harmful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 03:55:44 PM
Sigh. As I have posted before, from a dictionary:

Race (noun) a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

Racism (noun) the belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism

THE VERY DEFINITION OF RACE INCLUDES THE "CONSIDERED AS BELONGING TO THE SAME TYPE" ASPECT. You'd have to live in an alternative universe to claim that there are no such groups. In this very thread people have talked about blacks, whites etc. Those groups exist, and it is bizarre to claim that they don't. I don't know if y'all are collectively trolling me. People may, in the future, stop considering different groups of people to belong to the same type, but to claim that we are there today is insane.

If race doesn't exist then racism makes no sense. How do you treat someone unfairly because of their race if race doesn't exist?

I know that grumbler has a weird position on these matters, even if his Marty-level "analogy" is new. The rest of you though? You actually don't think blacks get treated differently from whites in the US when it comes to for instance cop interactions?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:05:14 PM
Grumbler, my point is that biologically, the term "race" is a concept that is used, defined, and makes sense.  However, also in my point was that for the concept to work, it has to be all H. Sapiens as a "race."  The concept of "sub-race" is used to describe phenotypes expressed over time in regional variance that in no way affect the larger "race" as they are not genetically different - they can breed, have viable offspring, etc.

My joke, of course, was that the "whites" are (if the idea of "sub-race" is to be used) is the sub-race to the traced mitochondrial origins that comes from Africa.

Every H. Sapiens alive is a member of a race.  One race.  Any idea of separate races is a social construct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:08:35 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 03:55:44 PM
Sigh. As I have posted before, from a dictionary:

Race (noun) a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

Racism (noun) the belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism

THE VERY DEFINITION OF RACE INCLUDES THE "CONSIDERED AS BELONGING TO THE SAME TYPE" ASPECT. You'd have to live in an alternative universe to claim that there are no such groups. In this very thread people have talked about blacks, whites etc. Those groups exist, and it is bizarre to claim that they don't. I don't know if y'all are collectively trolling me. People may, in the future, stop considering different groups of people to belong to the same type, but to claim that we are there today is insane.

If race doesn't exist then racism makes no sense. How do you treat someone unfairly because of their race if race doesn't exist?

I know that grumbler has a weird position on these matters, even if his Marty-level "analogy" is new. The rest of you though? You actually don't think blacks get treated differently from whites in the US when it comes to for instance cop interactions?

But Brain, that is a social and not a biological definition of race.  It is changeable (indeed it has changed over time), not uniform, and dependent on the society in question defining it.  Race is a concept, it is defined by biology, it is not what the social definition of the "human races" are.

I am not sure why you seem to think that a social construct, evident and acted upon through historical and present situations, is not real even if it is fictive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:14:13 PM
And Grumbler, I use race because at the present there is evidence of H. Sapiens having genetic flow with other strains of H. Sapiens in the past - and they are taxonomic difference between the strains (both genetic and morphological) that may well merit such differentiation but do not merit being a separate breeding unit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 04:16:01 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:08:35 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 03:55:44 PM
Sigh. As I have posted before, from a dictionary:

Race (noun) a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

Racism (noun) the belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism

THE VERY DEFINITION OF RACE INCLUDES THE "CONSIDERED AS BELONGING TO THE SAME TYPE" ASPECT. You'd have to live in an alternative universe to claim that there are no such groups. In this very thread people have talked about blacks, whites etc. Those groups exist, and it is bizarre to claim that they don't. I don't know if y'all are collectively trolling me. People may, in the future, stop considering different groups of people to belong to the same type, but to claim that we are there today is insane.

If race doesn't exist then racism makes no sense. How do you treat someone unfairly because of their race if race doesn't exist?

I know that grumbler has a weird position on these matters, even if his Marty-level "analogy" is new. The rest of you though? You actually don't think blacks get treated differently from whites in the US when it comes to for instance cop interactions?

But Brain, that is a social and not a biological definition of race.  It is changeable (indeed it has changed over time), not uniform, and dependent on the society in question defining it.  Race is a concept, it is defined by biology, it is not what the social definition of the "human races" are.

I am not sure why you seem to think that a social construct, evident and acted upon through historical and present situations, is not real even if it is fictive.

I am using "race" in the normal, dictionary meaning of race, when you talk of humans. I have never claimed to use race in some other meaning of the word.

I don't follow the last sentence. I am not the one claiming that the race construct isn't real. It's the opposite! I am saying race (as defined in the dictionary, see above) exists. It's other people who claim that race doesn't exist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:17:37 PM
Then why do you have trouble when people say that race exists, but it is only a social construct?  If you do not, then this has just been another case of Languish masturbating over semantics.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:17:37 PM
Then why do you have trouble when people say that race exists, but it is only a social construct?  If you do not, then this has just been another case of Languish masturbating over semantics.

If people say that race exists then they agree with me. My beef has been with claims that race doesn't exist. A claim that would, among other things, make a mockery of very real experiences of racism.

I certainly hope that this is all Languish semantics masturbation! And my guess is that it is. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 03:55:44 PM
Sigh. As I have posted before, from a dictionary:

Race (noun) a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

Sigh.  As i have posted before, the fact that a group is "considered as belonging to the same type" is a meaningless statement in terms of actually defining race in any objective fashion.  "Race" is, as the dictionary makes clear, a subjective matter based on on what you "consider" a group to be.  As your own sources says, it is
Quoteany group into which humans can be divided according to their shared physical or genetic characteristics:
.

Quote

Racism (noun) the belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism

An -ism is a belief in something.  While most people who consider themselves racists do so because they have a concept of racial superiority, racism can come from just the belief that races exist in objective terms, especially the belief that you can tel a person's "race" just by looking at them.

QuoteTHE VERY DEFINITION OF RACE INCLUDES THE "CONSIDERED AS BELONGING TO THE SAME TYPE" ASPECT. You'd have to live in an alternative universe to claim that there are no such groups. In this very thread people have talked about blacks, whites etc. Those groups exist, and it is bizarre to claim that they don't. I don't know if y'all are collectively trolling me. People may, in the future, stop considering different groups of people to belong to the same type, but to claim that we are there today is insane.

The term that you are looking for here is "genetics."  People with different expressed genes have different looks, abilities, etc from others, and people with the same expressed genes share some of those traits.  You'd have to live in an alternate universe, though, to believe that there is a defined set of characteristics that define some unknown number (how many are there, Brain?) of races.  My family shares certain traits.  Are we a race?  Redheads are "CONSIDERED AS BELONGING TO THE SAME TYPE" as you  shout.  Are they a race?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

QuoteIf race doesn't exist then racism makes no sense. How do you treat someone unfairly because of their race if race doesn't exist?

You cannot be this dumb.  Races don't need to exist in any objective sense to have racism.  If race doesn't exist, people can still believe that it does.   If god doesn't exist, people can still believe that it does.   If magic doesn't exist, people can still believe that it does. 

QuoteI know that grumbler has a weird position on these matters, even if his Marty-level "analogy" is new. The rest of you though? You actually don't think blacks get treated differently from whites in the US when it comes to for instance cop interactions?

I don't know why you chose the "races exist" hill to die on when your own arguments utterly lack any logical connection to the objective existence of race.  I know that you love to make ad hom attacks like these, but I won't reciprocate.  I know that the reduction of your arguments, at last, to ad homs is the sure sign that you have run out of intellectual arguments but won't concede the debate.

So let's just stay intellectual for a moment, and let you answer the following questions:

1.  How many races are there?

2.  How do we reliably assign people to their proper races?

3.  How do we assign the proper race to a newborn whose parents come from what you consider different races?  If the child is then "mixed race," then aren't we all "mixed race" as far as we know?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 21, 2020, 04:28:26 PM
grumbler, you are completely lost in space and have apparently not the faintest idea what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 04:28:58 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:05:14 PM
Grumbler, my point is that biologically, the term "race" is a concept that is used, defined, and makes sense.  However, also in my point was that for the concept to work, it has to be all H. Sapiens as a "race."  The concept of "sub-race" is used to describe phenotypes expressed over time in regional variance that in no way affect the larger "race" as they are not genetically different - they can breed, have viable offspring, etc.

My joke, of course, was that the "whites" are (if the idea of "sub-race" is to be used) is the sub-race to the traced mitochondrial origins that comes from Africa.

Every H. Sapiens alive is a member of a race.  One race.  Any idea of separate races is a social construct.

I understand the argument that humans belong to a "human race," but, again, this is just a social construct as well. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:31:31 PM
Ok, biological race for humans only works for the entire species, including extinct branches, with H. Sapiens sapiens being a race because it is the flow-to strain for other strains in the evolutionary sense.  In essence, the species and the race are now identical but only because other strains are gone - and those had morphological and genetic differences that may well merit being taxonomic differentiated.

What is defined as race most commonly is a social construct that does not have a biological basis, and so is fictive (not existing in society before, existing now in society).

Therefore, race is a social construct as it is commonly used, and so it is possible to argue (depending on point of view) that race does not exist and it does exist at the same time.  It seems Grumbler is arguing to use the word species here, which is also true but it is not quite a fine enough tool when talking taxonomy (if that is important).

Masturbate away.  All of you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:34:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 04:28:58 PM
I understand the argument that humans belong to a "human race," but, again, this is just a social construct as well.

I would argue, as an anthropologist in a former life, that is is important to differentiate Species -> Race -> Strains when talking about Homo Sapiens.  Note, I am arguing for past strains, there is no evidence of modern strains (unless Bigfoot does live in the Santa Cruz Mountains).  H. Sapiens are a strain in a race, and given the so recent past where other strains existed it is important to keep that notation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 06:01:21 PM
So race is a social construct, what exactly is a meaningful "therefore" here?  What would race being a biological construct allow for than race being a social construct wouldn't?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 21, 2020, 06:38:26 PM
Other examples of social constructs: language, countries, money. It's real because we make in real. Saying race doesn't exist is like saying money doesn't exist. I mean it's true in the most semantic sense, but I can still throw a quarter at your face.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2020, 11:30:05 PM
Pike commanded American Indians against the US Government.
Clearly worthy of a statue, helping the little guys resist the Empire's encroachement of their territory.  ;)  :showoff:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 08:46:01 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2020, 11:30:05 PM
Pike commanded American Indians against the US Government.
Clearly worthy of a statue, helping the little guys resist the Empire's encroachement of their territory.  ;)  :showoff:

That's what I was saying :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 08:52:03 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 21, 2020, 06:38:26 PM
Other examples of social constructs: language, countries, money. It's real because we make in real. Saying race doesn't exist is like saying money doesn't exist. I mean it's true in the most semantic sense, but I can still throw a quarter at your face.

The claim is that race is based on biology. It is not it is based on arbitrary social definitions. And those arbitrary social definitions are very important to our society but that is all they are.

I don't understand how a physical quarter is money. It isn't. It is a round disk of metal and yes you can throw round disks of metal in somebody's face. It doesn't work differently than another disk of metal because we decided it is worth 25 cents.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2020, 10:02:28 PM
 :wacko:

https://twitter.com/laurennmcc/status/1274878862757892096

QuoteToday in Columbus my husband was downtown at the protests & saw the cops hit & mace an unarmed kid and then STEAL HIS PROSTHETIC LEGS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Columbus/comments/hdf4hu/cpd_just_hit_and_maced_a_double_amputee_bravo_you/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 11:09:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 06:01:21 PM
So race is a social construct, what exactly is a meaningful "therefore" here?  What would race being a biological construct allow for than race being a social construct wouldn't?

The "therefore" is that we should keep our focus on eliminating racism, not explaining race.  Racism is the problem, not some fairy tale about "races."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 11:17:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 21, 2020, 06:38:26 PM
Other examples of social constructs: language, countries, money. It's real because we make in real. Saying race doesn't exist is like saying money doesn't exist. I mean it's true in the most semantic sense, but I can still throw a quarter at your face.

Other social constructs include gods, social classes, and professional ethics.  Saying that these things don't exist in the natural world helps us understand their utility or lack thereof.  This isn't a difficult concept.  Social constructs are only "real" to those that believe in them, and they change over time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 11:28:25 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 01:53:42 PM
Who is talking about collective guilt?
I don't know, really.  Help me a little... there's this expression sys... systa... sytas... no, systemsomething?
How is that not collective guilt?  Since disagreeing with this makes you a racist, how is it not about collective guilt?

Quote
And reparations are, for better or for worse, tied to existing states and polities. As far as I know, that movement is aimed at the existing polities of the US, or the UK (and maybe France), who both sponsored and used enslaved labor, while wishing to uphold democratic values and aspirations.
Canada had slaves for a while. Quebec religious communities had slaves, indians or blacks.  Indian communities had slaves.  Do way pay indemnities to Pawnees and the possible descendants of black slaves?  Since Quebecers did not own as many slaves and not for as long as the British settlers, do the English Canadians pay more than we do, irrelevant of modern population?  Since the British government later fought against the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, is this a downpayement on any reperation?

In the US, who's a descendant of slave?  If someone's grandparents comes from Haïti, is he/she entitled to a compensation by the US government for slavery, abolished in 1865?
Despite the Civil war not being about the emancipation of slaves, but since it was the end result, should the dead white Union soldiers count as a downpayment?  Do the death of black soldiers on the Union sides and the black slaves on the Confederate side get included in the count?

And how is that going to change anything?  The Whites will now have a lot more respect for their black co-citizens?  The Trump Republicans will become believers in a just and fair world for everyone?  The US police force will be much less brutal in the future knowing that their victim is now richer?

If someone who can trace its ancestry back to a runaway slave in 1863 dies without children before reparations are made how is it fairer than someone whose ancestors were never slaves receiving a compensation despite living through segregation?

Do indians used as slaves get compensation?  Do indian tribes practicing slavery in the past get to chime in the pot?

It's a silly issue, and it should be dropped in favour of more attainable measures.  At some point, you got to choose your fights.  Windmills may be dangerous, but there are much more dangerous ennemies out there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 11:34:47 PM
Reparations paid to whom? And how? Talk about a bureaucratic mess.

Another reason I am in favor of Universal Basic Income. The black communities need money and support, how about $1000 dollars per person per month? And you don't need some big system trying to figure out who is entitled to some one time cash payment that ultimately won't help much.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2020, 03:50:02 PM
I'm quite certain that people in Muslim majority countries have torn down statutes before, for various reasons. If Muslims in those countries want to tear down statues of prominent slavers, I doubt American or European leftists would complain.

The fact that American and European leftists are not travelling to Muslim majority countries to tear down statues there does not seem to me evidence of hypocrisy or inconsistency.
It's when there's talk of collective guilt, or white men's guilt for slavery and racism.  The slave trade was hardly confined to White men hunting down Africans in the deepest jungles.

Talking of reperation for slavery by only talking about 2 or 3 countries is a non starter.  Either you include everyone or you don't include anyone.  Blacks, Muslism, Europeans, Americans, Canadians, South Americans, does not matter, if reperation must be done to citizens whose skin colour is a shade of black, everyone guilty has to pay reperations. 

If a white person today has black slave ancestors, I don't see why that person should not be eligible to a form of compensation, since we're going to include a lot of people who never had a single slave ancestor in our countries.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 04:44:08 PM
I just wish they would be honest in their aims.
Ah.  If we don't agree with the left's vision of society, we are either racist or dishonest.
Should have known.

I'm slow to understand these things.  Next time, spell them properly for us in the beggining, please.

Thank you for your cooperation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 11:44:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2020, 04:55:14 PM
By the way did anybody read the amazing article Syt posted earlier? I mean not to hijack the statue thread or anything.
The one written by a former police officer?  Yes, I did. 

There are some interesting suggestions there, some that have been discussed over here (mental health issues), and some arguments that seems downright silly, like "if everyone's basic needs were satisfied we wouldn't need law enforcement". 

That's just pure leftist utopia right there.  We have several examples of what happens when there is no police: anarchy.  People don't buy drugs because they're dirt poor and have their basic needs not satisfied.  Having cops taking a depostion after the crime has been commited is not "bullshit", it's the first step in obtaining justice.
The ones who say "robbery" is not a real crime should have all their things stolen, their houses defaced, their cars vandalized and receive a good mugging on top of it so that would know that a lesser crime hurts as much as a serious crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 11:47:42 PM
Yeah that is what I said earlier. Yes if everybody's basic needs were met and there were not crushing depressing poverty in large sections of the country that probably would substantially decrease crime.

But we all know that plenty of people commit crimes for reasons that have nothing to do with any of that. Even things like petty theft. Some people steal shit just for fun or they have some kind of irrational compulsion to do it. They may not even need or want or even care about the thing they stole. And that is just for a crime you would think would largely be driven by poverty. I recall that study that the overwhelming numbers of people who stole packages off people's doorsteps were just doing it for the thrill.

So that was kind of weak. I thought it was interesting many of his other ideas though. Like having different groups better trained for handling specific areas. Now I understand that might only be practical for very large forces in large cities but hey that is where many of the problems are occuring anyway.

Also it confirmed a lot of my concerns about training and how the police operate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 11:53:50 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:04:00 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:48:09 PMIn other words, as a North American historian, you think that North American style slavery had a much more profound effect on the world than Eurasian style slavery. Splendid. :P

As a North American historian who has team-taught classes about freedom and slavery with colleagues working on the Ottoman Empire and China, yes. It's absolutely a point I would argue. Conversely, early-modern Chinese imperialism may have had a more profound effect on the world than early-modern European imperialism. Neither means that slavery in Persia, or warfare in the Andes was great or benign. 

A useful distinction, in the history of slavery, is between "societies with slaves" and "slave societies". The first are societies where slavery existed. The second, where slavery structured the very polity itself. None of the East Asian societies that I know of structured themselves around the institution of slavery the way that, say, Jamaica did. The Ottoman Empire, and its Janissaries, is perhaps the most hybrid case.
I'm speaking to the void... but anyway.
the problem is you focus only on the US.
Of course Atlantic chattel slavery shaped community and racial relations much more than the Ottoman&muslim slave trade when it comes to the US.

When it comes to Europe, it definately shapes how other groups view one another.  You have a pretty good example with Tamas, of which you dismissed the testimony, since he's a middle class white man.

The legacy of the Ottoman Empire has shaped how Turkey views its neighbours, how it views non Turk people inside its borders, how it views outsiders.  It's not something that magically appeared with Erdogan.  It also shaped how Turkey's neighbours see them.  It also shapes how some mulsim countries and their citizens perceive the West.
The term "mécréant" can be often heard in some of Montreal's universities by a certain category of students.  It's not something that suddenly appeared with Salafism or Saudi financed schools in Africa and Europe.

There's no black or white, clearly demarcated lines here.  Lots of blacks don't like whites at all.  Some black personalities will even publicly declare they'll never date whites.  Some black artists never miss an opportunity to spit on whites and disparage victims of black gangs.

But the worst?  Just like Stalin, they have their useful idiots to help them propagate their hate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 11:55:18 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2020, 11:09:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 06:01:21 PM
So race is a social construct, what exactly is a meaningful "therefore" here?  What would race being a biological construct allow for than race being a social construct wouldn't?

The "therefore" is that we should keep our focus on eliminating racism, not explaining race.  Racism is the problem, not some fairy tale about "races."
I don't see how one in any way follows from the other.  I mean, of course we should be focusing on eliminating racism, but how does that follow from race being a social construct?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:00:10 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 20, 2020, 08:54:08 PM
Maybe they didn't know who it was.
Some people can't differentiate one white guy from another  :sleep: ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2020, 12:09:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 11:55:18 PM
I don't see how one in any way follows from the other.  I mean, of course we should be focusing on eliminating racism, but how does that follow from race being a social construct?

Okay, you don't see it.  I can live with that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:10:46 AM
Quote from: PDH on June 21, 2020, 02:44:09 PM
All H. Sapiens sapiens can breed with viable breeding offspring.  No regional phenotypes cannot breed with other H Sapiens sapiens (there are, of course individual problems), so it is one race biologically.
But H. Sapiens sapiens did breed with Neanderthal and likely produced different H. Sapiens sapiens since some population (Africans have 0%) have as much as 4% Neanderthal genes. I'm guessing the portion of N. genes wasn't stable at 4% over time and it was signicantly higher when the mating first occured.

If race, as a biological concept does not exists and a species is a group that can produce viable offsprings among each other, how does that classify earlier form of humans?  Or should we rather say that despite obvious biological differences, H. Sapiens is the species, and H. Sapiens Sapiens is a subspecies?  But then, since we whites have 4% Neanderthal dna and Africans have 0%, do we belong to different sub-species?

Not my field of expertise, I am genuinely interested in this discussion.  Despite being an evil racist for not agreeing with the extreme left. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:20:04 AM
Quote from: PDH on June 21, 2020, 04:31:31 PM
Ok, biological race for humans only works for the entire species, including extinct branches, with H. Sapiens sapiens being a race because it is the flow-to strain for other strains in the evolutionary sense.  In essence, the species and the race are now identical but only because other strains are gone - and those had morphological and genetic differences that may well merit being taxonomic differentiated.
up to what point can we up to the extinct species and say "we are of the same species"?  And that point, if the offspring of the generation that is not the same species as us is of the same species as their "parent", how do we fit in all this?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:22:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 08:46:01 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2020, 11:30:05 PM
Pike commanded American Indians against the US Government.
Clearly worthy of a statue, helping the little guys resist the Empire's encroachement of their territory.  ;) :showoff:

That's what I was saying :mellow:
Duh.  I totally misunderstood.  I though you were saying his statue deserved to be torn down for being a rebel like the others.

EDIT: These indians fighting for the Confederacy were slavers though :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:24:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 11:34:47 PM
Reparations paid to whom? And how? Talk about a bureaucratic mess.

Another reason I am in favor of Universal Basic Income. The black communities need money and support, how about $1000 dollars per person per month? And you don't need some big system trying to figure out who is entitled to some one time cash payment that ultimately won't help much.
I could get around the idead of UBI much more easily than any reperation Canada should pay to its black community, has has been suggested recently.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 22, 2020, 12:33:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2020, 12:09:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 11:55:18 PM
I don't see how one in any way follows from the other.  I mean, of course we should be focusing on eliminating racism, but how does that follow from race being a social construct?

Okay, you don't see it.  I can live with that.
Is there anyone other than you who understands this logic?  I'm just asking so that I know who to ask to explain it to me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:39:03 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 11:47:42 PM
Yeah that is what I said earlier. Yes if everybody's basic needs were met and there were not crushing depressing poverty in large sections of the country that probably would substantially decrease crime.
There will always be inequality and there will always be people who conveit what the other has.  As you've mentionned, even the filthy rich want to get richer and will not hesitate to steal.

Quote
So that was kind of weak. I thought it was interesting many of his other ideas though. Like having different groups better trained for handling specific areas. Now I understand that might only be practical for very large forces in large cities but hey that is where many of the problems are occuring anyway.
Yes, the idea of using social workers instead of cops, or having social workers units integrated with the police force has been floated here.  White males are mostly the victims, so we don't hear much outcry about this from the leftist activist, unfortunately, and it's unlikely to change anytime soon. 

Having to call the police on someone you know is suffering from mental illness is always a scary thing, you never know how it will end.

In the end, it results in relatives not calling the police until the absolute breaking point and the chances of a violent end are then multiplied infinately. :(

Quote
Also it confirmed a lot of my concerns about training and how the police operate.
There were quite a few scandals on police brutality, and police planting evidence on suspects during the late 80s early 90s, mostly centered around Montreal.  There were numerous police reforms after that.  The concept of community police was introduced, it did seem to reduce tensions, and there seems to be less problems with outrigth police brutality.  But the rise in hard left activism is a real problem in this city.  Even the mayor is one stupid leftist moron or a lady.

I have also sorta-witnessed a small city with corrupt cops.  No problem there, so long as you were friends with the right people.  The police chief could be bought with liquor.  Lots of liquor.  But that meant quasi-immunity from most traffic violation.  I know some people never got arrested for DUI, one guy bragged about it constantly and how the police chief was his friend.  <sigh>.  Anyhow.  Hopefully, that was the past.  Knowing this place, not too sure though.

What's encouraging is that in some other cities, when policemen, or even a police chief were arrested for DUI and tried to claim immunity with their "police card", they were still arrested, suspended, condemned and fired.
I think body cameras work well too, both to protect the cop and the citizen.  There should be punishment if it's turned off.  Severe punishment, enough to make sure they don't do it purposefully.

As to the US, the causes are multiple, inherent racism in the society is only one factor of it.  I'm guessing the author hits a right spot when he talks of "police immunity".  Reading articles on the subject over the years, it does seem like the cops get away with fatal shooting, even outright murder quite easily.  And justice always seems to be on the side of the DA, unless you have tons of money.  Reading some stories coming out of Texas about how innocents were convicted despite no freaking evidence, contradictory testimonies, bad investigations leaves a bad taste in the mouth.  Especially with the dp involved :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 02:46:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2020, 08:52:03 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 21, 2020, 06:38:26 PM
Other examples of social constructs: language, countries, money. It's real because we make in real. Saying race doesn't exist is like saying money doesn't exist. I mean it's true in the most semantic sense, but I can still throw a quarter at your face.

The claim is that race is based on biology. It is not it is based on arbitrary social definitions. And those arbitrary social definitions are very important to our society but that is all they are.

Whose claim? I have even explicitly described the definitions as being arbitrary. And nothing in the usual meaning of the word "race" suggests that they are not arbitrary.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 04:05:55 AM
The claim was "race doesn't exist". I disagreed with this claim, based on what I see when I "look out the window" into the world, for instance present-day America where people being treated differently depending on race is a huge problem.

If the claim is in fact "race is a social construct", and not "race doesn't exist", then I won't argue against it. It was precisely the "doesn't exist" thing that I had a problem with. :)

Some people seem to have read stuff into my position that simply isn't there. I have even been accused of being racist, an accusation which is completely groundless and quite frankly hurtful. My hope is that we (Languish) will keep having "meaningless" semantics discussions Languish-style, with plenty of room for drastic phrasing and personal jibes, but leave groundlesss accusations of that kind at the door.

One lesson that I have taken away from all this is to ask IMMEDIATELY which exact meaning of a word is being used when I see a claim that I find very strange. Had I done this here then much gnashing of buttocks could have been avoided I think. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 22, 2020, 04:56:11 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 04:05:55 AM
quite frankly hurtful.

:nelson:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 22, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
Quite some bravery in this girl protesting alone in a hick town. Apparently the local trogs heard busloads of antifa were going to come in to smash the place up so turned out in force against her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/haz5fn/a_lone_young_woman_protests_with_a_blm_sign_while/

One thing I'm confused about is why bikers seem to be so represented amongst the anti BLM groups. They got involved in the statue defence idiocy here too. The last I heard of bikers being political was the anti Fred Phelps lot, but now they're the baddies?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 07:11:05 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
Quite some bravery in this girl protesting alone in a hick town. Apparently the local trogs heard busloads of antifa were going to come in to smash the place up so turned out in force against her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/haz5fn/a_lone_young_woman_protests_with_a_blm_sign_while/

One thing I'm confused about is why bikers seem to be so represented amongst the anti BLM groups. They got involved in the statue defence idiocy here too. The last I heard of bikers being political was the anti Fred Phelps lot, but now they're the baddies?

Bikers as in the criminal gangs or bikers as in normal people who have a motorcycle club?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 22, 2020, 07:15:09 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2020, 11:53:50 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 20, 2020, 05:04:00 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2020, 04:48:09 PMIn other words, as a North American historian, you think that North American style slavery had a much more profound effect on the world than Eurasian style slavery. Splendid. :P

As a North American historian who has team-taught classes about freedom and slavery with colleagues working on the Ottoman Empire and China, yes. It's absolutely a point I would argue. Conversely, early-modern Chinese imperialism may have had a more profound effect on the world than early-modern European imperialism. Neither means that slavery in Persia, or warfare in the Andes was great or benign. 

A useful distinction, in the history of slavery, is between "societies with slaves" and "slave societies". The first are societies where slavery existed. The second, where slavery structured the very polity itself. None of the East Asian societies that I know of structured themselves around the institution of slavery the way that, say, Jamaica did. The Ottoman Empire, and its Janissaries, is perhaps the most hybrid case.
I'm speaking to the void... but anyway.
the problem is you focus only on the US.
Of course Atlantic chattel slavery shaped community and racial relations much more than the Ottoman&muslim slave trade when it comes to the US.

When it comes to Europe, it definately shapes how other groups view one another.  You have a pretty good example with Tamas, of which you dismissed the testimony, since he's a middle class white man.

The legacy of the Ottoman Empire has shaped how Turkey views its neighbours, how it views non Turk people inside its borders, how it views outsiders.  It's not something that magically appeared with Erdogan.  It also shaped how Turkey's neighbours see them.  It also shapes how some mulsim countries and their citizens perceive the West.
The term "mécréant" can be often heard in some of Montreal's universities by a certain category of students.  It's not something that suddenly appeared with Salafism or Saudi financed schools in Africa and Europe.

There's no black or white, clearly demarcated lines here.  Lots of blacks don't like whites at all.  Some black personalities will even publicly declare they'll never date whites.  Some black artists never miss an opportunity to spit on whites and disparage victims of black gangs.

But the worst?  Just like Stalin, they have their useful idiots to help them propagate their hate.

Oriental slave trade, by Arabs, Turks and other muslims, goes from the arabo-islamic expansion of the 7th century to the early 20th Century. The Ottoman slave trade is but a part of it. It left specific memories in Europe, as the Barbary slaver pirates did. Both were linked.
Trans-saharian slave trade connected to the Mediterranean trade networks, without Ottoman involvement, was where Europe got most of its black slaves until the 1470's. So after the beginning of the Western slave trade, both coexisted for a long time in fact.

The black slave was called an Abd, a word still used in Arabic today for (black) Africans. The Curse of Ham arguments was used by Muslims as well, predating the use by Christians by several centuries.
Ibn Khaldun, among others, the great Arabic traveller of the 14 century, judged black nations ready to accept slavery, given their low degree of civilisation and humanity.

So believing blacks were not essentialised by the muslim world, unlike the Western World, is either naive or a sign of an extremely biased vision.
Even Arabic prejudices made their way into European langues with words such as Cafre or Kaffir, particularly offensive in South Africa. Cafre has fallen in disuse in French, Castilian and Portuguese but can still have a very negative connotation, at least in the Iberian languages I mentioned.


By the way, this book is pretty much the reference on all black slave trades in French (not translated into English AFAIK), with the background of ancient slavery taken into account as well:
Traites négrières : essai d'histoire globale par Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau
https://www.amazon.ca/-/fr/TRAITES-NÉGRIÈRES-ESSAI-DHISTOIRE-GLOBALE/dp/2070339025 (https://www.amazon.ca/-/fr/TRAITES-N%C3%89GRI%C3%88RES-ESSAI-DHISTOIRE-GLOBALE/dp/2070339025)
https://www.amazon.com/traites-négrières-dhistoire-globale-Histoire-ebook/dp/B00N09IDUW/ (https://www.amazon.com/traites-n%C3%A9gri%C3%A8res-dhistoire-globale-Histoire-ebook/dp/B00N09IDUW/)

PS: as for mécréants, it really fell in disuse in France, until the contemporary rise of islamism.
Added Canadian link, but should be available in bookshops and libraries as well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2020, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 12:10:46 AM
But H. Sapiens sapiens did breed with Neanderthal and likely produced different H. Sapiens sapiens since some population (Africans have 0%) have as much as 4% Neanderthal genes. I'm guessing the portion of N. genes wasn't stable at 4% over time and it was signicantly higher when the mating first occured.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens neanderthalsis are two subspecies of the species Homo Sapiens, at least according to current thought as I understand it (the issue is a bit more complex than that).  Individuals from two subspecies would be expected to be able to mate and produce fertile offspring.

QuoteIf race, as a biological concept does not exists and a species is a group that can produce viable offsprings among each other, how does that classify earlier form of humans?  Or should we rather say that despite obvious biological differences, H. Sapiens is the species, and H. Sapiens Sapiens is a subspecies?  But then, since we whites have 4% Neanderthal dna and Africans have 0%, do we belong to different sub-species?

Not every genetic variation creates a subspecies, though, again, the definition of a subspecies is much looser than that of  species.  Breeds of dos, for instance, all belong to the same subspecies, and the dog subspecies has a lot more genetic variation than the Hss subspecies.

QuoteNot my field of expertise, I am genuinely interested in this discussion.  Despite being an evil racist for not agreeing with the extreme left. :)

Genetics is interesting (especially human genetics), but it doesn't include the idea of "races."  The actual genetic variation in humans is astonishingly low.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 22, 2020, 09:55:57 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 22, 2020, 07:15:09 AMSo believing blacks were not essentialised by the muslim world, unlike the Western World, is either naive or a sign of an extremely biased vision.

I have not used "the Western World", nor the "Muslim World" precisely because these terms cover centuries of history and are not really useful, except for making blanket statements about "the Western World" and "the Muslim World". It would posit an unchanging relationship between black people and Christians or Muslims, and we know this is simply not the case. Relations and perceptions have changed over the years. It is as problematic when writers insist that there is a straight line running from medieval prejudices about blackness to the 19th century, whether in the "Christian world" or the "Muslim world". Essentializing has been a constant component of human relations since forever. It takes a different set-up, and intellectual context, to produce racialization. Some of these elements were certainly present in medieval Al-Andalus, which benefitted economically from the trade, and where domain holders, much like British merchants in the 17th and 18th century, were threatened by the possibility that their captives' conversion would deprive them of their labor.

But these conditions did not last, and the diffusion of Islam in the interior of Africa made these essentialist arguments much harder to maintain in the subsequent centuries. I am sure they lingered, later relayed by the East African trade to the Arabian peninsula. I have made explicit allowances in my answers for the existence of "homegrown" Arabic prejudices emerging from the Transahara slave trade, or the Eastern African slave trade. But, do I believe these prejudices have had the same global impact as those born of the Atlantic slave trade? No. Do I think they are benign? No. A lot of people in Mauritania are still held in bondage today and can testify to the horror of their condition.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on June 22, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 07:11:05 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
Quite some bravery in this girl protesting alone in a hick town. Apparently the local trogs heard busloads of antifa were going to come in to smash the place up so turned out in force against her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/haz5fn/a_lone_young_woman_protests_with_a_blm_sign_while/

One thing I'm confused about is why bikers seem to be so represented amongst the anti BLM groups. They got involved in the statue defence idiocy here too. The last I heard of bikers being political was the anti Fred Phelps lot, but now they're the baddies?

Bikers as in the criminal gangs or bikers as in normal people who have a motorcycle club?
Probably the second?
I don't think biker criminal gangs are much of a thing in the UK.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 10:04:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 07:11:05 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
Quite some bravery in this girl protesting alone in a hick town. Apparently the local trogs heard busloads of antifa were going to come in to smash the place up so turned out in force against her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/haz5fn/a_lone_young_woman_protests_with_a_blm_sign_while/

One thing I'm confused about is why bikers seem to be so represented amongst the anti BLM groups. They got involved in the statue defence idiocy here too. The last I heard of bikers being political was the anti Fred Phelps lot, but now they're the baddies?

Bikers as in the criminal gangs or bikers as in normal people who have a motorcycle club?
Probably the second?
I don't think biker criminal gangs are much of a thing in the UK.

Ah OK. The major international criminal biker gangs have had a presence in Sweden for a number of decades.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 22, 2020, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 22, 2020, 09:55:57 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 22, 2020, 07:15:09 AMSo believing blacks were not essentialised by the muslim world, unlike the Western World, is either naive or a sign of an extremely biased vision.

I have not used "the Western World", nor the "Muslim World" precisely because these terms cover centuries of history and are not really useful, except for making blanket statements about "the Western World" and "the Muslim World". It would posit an unchanging relationship between black people and Christians or Muslims, and we know this is simply not the case. Relations and perceptions have changed over the years. It is as problematic when writers insist that there is a straight line running from medieval prejudices about blackness to the 19th century, whether in the "Christian world" or the "Muslim world". Essentializing has been a constant component of human relations since forever. It takes a different set-up, and intellectual context, to produce racialization. Some of these elements were certainly present in medieval Al-Andalus, which benefitted economically from the trade, and where domain holders, much like British merchants in the 17th and 18th century, were threatened by the possibility that their captives' conversion would deprive them of their labor.

But these conditions did not last, and the diffusion of Islam in the interior of Africa made these essentialist arguments much harder to maintain in the subsequent centuries. I am sure they lingered, later relayed by the East African trade to the Arabian peninsula. I have made explicit allowances in my answers for the existence of "homegrown" Arabic prejudices emerging from the Transahara slave trade, or the Eastern African slave trade. But, do I believe these prejudices have had the same global impact as those born of the Atlantic slave trade? No. Do I think they are benign? No. A lot of people in Mauritania are still held in bondage today and can testify to the horror of their condition.

Well, Western world is broad but then the US south plantation model is not the only, is he? Yet that's the one referenced ad nauseam.

That ternary view of Blacks, Christians and Muslims  is misleading, there has been –allegedly powerful at a time– black Christians in Africa for a while, Ethiopians, who were supposed to help Christendom but ended up having to be helped, for mutual benefit obviously. So much for Prester John.
So that contemporary race-based/identity politics analysis does not work there since what mattered then (15th and 16h century and later on) was religion.

As for the diffusion of Islam, since it also matched the ongoing and ever-spreading slave trade, it also fortified those arguments. Even if some liberties were to be taken with the rule of enslaving muslims. "Bad" or "false" muslims could obviously be enslaved.
The rise of 19th "scientific" racism in the West was when the Western slave trade was ending so the link with racism does not explain everything.

Mauritania is indeed a sad interesting case, with slavery banned several times, last time in 1981, but criminalized only in 2007, a law not being enforced since a putsch in 2008. Some anti-slavery activists being jailed as of 2014. There is this new 2015 law recognizing slavery as a crime against humanity though. No idea if it has changed the situation, however.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 22, 2020, 11:32:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
Quite some bravery in this girl protesting alone in a hick town. Apparently the local trogs heard busloads of antifa were going to come in to smash the place up so turned out in force against her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/haz5fn/a_lone_young_woman_protests_with_a_blm_sign_while/

One thing I'm confused about is why bikers seem to be so represented amongst the anti BLM groups. They got involved in the statue defence idiocy here too. The last I heard of bikers being political was the anti Fred Phelps lot, but now they're the baddies?
Quote
Someone edited the town's Wikipedia page lol...

    Bethel is a village in Clermont County, Ohio, United States composed of many, many racists
:lol:

In better times, this would have been in the Ohio thread.  :(

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 22, 2020, 12:42:52 PM
Was waiting for the Bethel thing to get mentioned here :ph34r: :bleeding:

It's just east of the part of town where I live.  We had to play several football games in that crappy little town.  Not surprised at the ugliness there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
Hats off to the girl protestor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 22, 2020, 01:09:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
Hats off to the girl protestor.

I was in Chattanooga and I saw a black lives matter protest go down the main road in the center of town. 100% peaceful. However, someone/some group had put a bunch of signs "Keep CPD Funded" (I assume CPD is Chattanooga Police Department) on the road and painted on the sidewalk.

I think we are a few escalating incidents away from groups fighting in the streets. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 22, 2020, 01:21:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 22, 2020, 12:33:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2020, 12:09:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 11:55:18 PM
I don't see how one in any way follows from the other.  I mean, of course we should be focusing on eliminating racism, but how does that follow from race being a social construct?

Okay, you don't see it.  I can live with that.
Is there anyone other than you who understands this logic?  I'm just asking so that I know who to ask to explain it to me.


I think Grumbler is taking the position that a social construct isn't real.  While true a social construct doesn't exist outside the human mind, it does still exist.  Money is a social construct, but you will go hungry if you chose to ignore money matters.  The United States is a social construct, however denying it exists won't protect you from the United States executing you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 22, 2020, 01:27:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 22, 2020, 01:21:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 22, 2020, 12:33:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2020, 12:09:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2020, 11:55:18 PM
I don't see how one in any way follows from the other.  I mean, of course we should be focusing on eliminating racism, but how does that follow from race being a social construct?

Okay, you don't see it.  I can live with that.
Is there anyone other than you who understands this logic?  I'm just asking so that I know who to ask to explain it to me.


I think Grumbler is taking the position that a social construct isn't real.  While true a social construct doesn't exist outside the human mind, it does still exist.  Money is a social construct, but you will go hungry if you chose to ignore money matters.  The United States is a social construct, however denying it exists won't protect you from the United States executing you.

And language exists, or it would be hard to explain how we communicate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2020, 01:31:03 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 22, 2020, 01:09:41 PM
I was in Chattanooga and I saw a black lives matter protest go down the main road in the center of town. 100% peaceful. However, someone/some group had put a bunch of signs "Keep CPD Funded" (I assume CPD is Chattanooga Police Department) on the road and painted on the sidewalk.

I think we are a few escalating incidents away from groups fighting in the streets. :(

Will you be with the blacks and midgets or with the whites?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4REO0pucYY8
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 22, 2020, 01:50:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2020, 01:31:03 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 22, 2020, 01:09:41 PM
I was in Chattanooga and I saw a black lives matter protest go down the main road in the center of town. 100% peaceful. However, someone/some group had put a bunch of signs "Keep CPD Funded" (I assume CPD is Chattanooga Police Department) on the road and painted on the sidewalk.

I think we are a few escalating incidents away from groups fighting in the streets. :(

Will you be with the blacks and midgets or with the whites?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4REO0pucYY8

Almost all the protesters were white. It will be a riot between the woke snowflakes and retrograde rednecks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2020, 02:41:11 PM
Hey Speesh, what do you figure the Bethel cops were doing while that was going down?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2020, 04:34:07 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
One thing I'm confused about is why bikers seem to be so represented amongst the anti BLM groups. They got involved in the statue defence idiocy here too. The last I heard of bikers being political was the anti Fred Phelps lot, but now they're the baddies?
bikers as criminal gangs... well, most of them come the US.  The Hell's Angels are notorious for being white supremacists, although the club itself doesn't self-describe as racist.  Yet they have some exceptions.
To quote them:
Quoten another interview with leader Sonny Barger in 2000 he remarked "if you're a motorcycle rider and you're white, you want to join the Hell's Angels. If you black, you want to join the Dragons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Bay_Dragons_MC). That's how it is whether anyone likes it or not. We don't have no blacks and they don't have no whites."[73] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels#cite_note-pdr.autono.net-73) When asked if that could change Barger replied "Anything can change, I can't predict the future."[73] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels#cite_note-pdr.autono.net-73) Tobie Levingston who formed the black motorcycle club East Bay Dragons MC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Bay_Dragons_MC) wrote in his book that he and Sonny Barger have a long-lasting friendship and that the Hells Angels and Dragons have a mutual friendship and hang out and ride together.[74] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels#cite_note-74)

The Bandidos hail from Texas, near Galveston, IIRC.  They first expanded throughout the South, and being self described badass rebels, I guess they adopted the policies of the other local clubs/gangsters they joined with.
A typicall biker rally:


So, not surprising at all that they would be on the forefront of such counter protests.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 23, 2020, 06:02:11 AM
QuoteFBI investigates after noose found in garage of Bubba Wallace, Nascar's only black driver
Driver has campaigned to ban Confederate flag at events
Alabama governor condemns 'mark this leaves on our state'
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 23, 2020, 06:26:23 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 23, 2020, 06:02:11 AM
QuoteFBI investigates after noose found in garage of Bubba Wallace, Nascar's only black driver
Driver has campaigned to ban Confederate flag at events
Alabama governor condemns 'mark this leaves on our state'

Jesus Christ. Stay classy Alabama.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 06:55:18 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbJxovhXsA4Xvcd.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2020, 07:04:24 AM
Fucking hell.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 07:30:06 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2020, 02:41:11 PM
Hey Speesh, what do you figure the Bethel cops were doing while that was going down?

Apparently, they were looking the other way while guys were getting sucker punched :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on June 23, 2020, 07:49:08 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2020, 07:04:24 AM
Fucking hell.

First I thought it was just some random twitter idiot, but he's the son of the yank Stig?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 23, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
I'm genuinely confused why someone would conclude Bubba Wallace single handedly destroyed NASCAR.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:12:38 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
I'm genuinely confused why someone would conclude Bubba Wallace single handedly destroyed NASCAR.
He got the Confederate flags banned.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 23, 2020, 08:23:43 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2020, 07:49:08 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2020, 07:04:24 AM
Fucking hell.

First I thought it was just some random twitter idiot, but he's the son of the yank Stig?



Quote"Dustin Skinner Is my son and he's an amazing father and amazing man he's also a full-grown adult his views are not the same as Angie and myself we support Bubba have his whole career we don't like what's going on in our country anymore than anybody else"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on June 23, 2020, 08:25:12 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:12:38 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
I'm genuinely confused why someone would conclude Bubba Wallace single handedly destroyed NASCAR.
He got the Confederate flags banned.

So many opinions on that...but the first one is...if confederate flags made nascar awesome, can't he just sit in a room with confederate flags and experience the same awesome? He could even invite his friends over. If there is a unique synergy that makes confederate flags and auto racing awesome, can't he just go to his local dirt track or something, which I really doubt bans confederate flags?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on June 23, 2020, 08:28:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

Yeah he did, and indeed obviously directed by someone else. Not a great look.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 23, 2020, 08:32:10 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:12:38 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
I'm genuinely confused why someone would conclude Bubba Wallace single handedly destroyed NASCAR.
He got the Confederate flags banned.

Plus he is black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 23, 2020, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 23, 2020, 08:28:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

Yeah he did, and indeed obviously directed by someone else. Not a great look.

And too late for his Wikipedia page....  :P

QuoteDustin Skinner (born April 20, 1985) is an American former stock car racing driver. He has competed in one NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series race, in 2008 at Martinsville Speedway. He is the son of Mike Skinner. He is also a racist cry baby.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 23, 2020, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 23, 2020, 06:02:11 AM
QuoteFBI investigates after noose found in garage of Bubba Wallace, Nascar's only black driver
Driver has campaigned to ban Confederate flag at events
Alabama governor condemns 'mark this leaves on our state'
it's certainly the right approach to prove the flag is not a racist symbol...  :wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 23, 2020, 02:48:45 PM
To rebound on Syt's excellent article from a former cop, the text Valmy wanted so much to talk about... :P

Here's another point of view about defunding the police, or simply governing ourselves without police:
This California city defunded its police force. Killings by officers soared (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/this-california-city-defunded-its-police-force-killings-by-officers-soared/2020/06/22/253eeddc-b198-11ea-856d-5054296735e5_story.html)

QuoteTwelve years ago, officials in Vallejo, Calif., reluctantly took a step that activists are now urging in cities across the country: They defunded their police department.

Unable to pay its bills after the 2008 financial crisis, Vallejo filed for bankruptcy and cut its police force nearly in half — to fewer than 80 officers, from a pre-recession high of more than 150. At the time, the working-class city of 122,000 north of San Francisco struggled with high rates of violent crime and simmering mistrust of its police department. It didn't seem like things could get much worse.

And then they did. Far from ushering in a new era of harmony between police and the people they are sworn to protect, the budget cuts worsened tensions between the department and the community and were followed by a dramatic surge in officers' use of deadly force. Since 2009 the police have killed 20 people, an extraordinarily high number for such a small city. In 2012 alone, officers fatally shot six suspects. Nearly a third of the city's homicides that year were committed by law enforcement.

[...]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

What's wrong with the first one?  How strongly must a father publicly denounce his own son on social media?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PRC on June 23, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

What's wrong with the first one?  How strongly must a father publicly denounce his own son on social media?

Hard to reconcile the father calling the son an "amazing man and amazing father" with that amazing man saying the driver should be noosed and pulled around the pits.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 03:13:46 PM
Quote from: PRC on June 23, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

What's wrong with the first one?  How strongly must a father publicly denounce his own son on social media?

Hard to reconcile the father calling the son an "amazing man and amazing father" with that amazing man saying the driver should be noosed and pulled around the pits.

It's his own son though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 23, 2020, 03:20:28 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 03:13:46 PM
Quote from: PRC on June 23, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

What's wrong with the first one?  How strongly must a father publicly denounce his own son on social media?

Hard to reconcile the father calling the son an "amazing man and amazing father" with that amazing man saying the driver should be noosed and pulled around the pits.

It's his own son though.
Got to be honest, I think my dad would absolutely disown me if I was saluting guys who put a noose in a black person's dressing room and saying I wished they'd tied him and up and dragged him around with it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2020, 03:23:13 PM
I think maybe the statement dissociating himself from his son's comments isn't the place to lavish compliments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2020, 03:24:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
What's wrong with the first one?

He called the person who advocated for dragging a black driver around the pits by a noose an amazing man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 03:13:46 PM
Quote from: PRC on June 23, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
I think Mike Skinner put out a more resolutely condemning statement, once his PR person returned the call.

What's wrong with the first one?  How strongly must a father publicly denounce his own son on social media?

Hard to reconcile the father calling the son an "amazing man and amazing father" with that amazing man saying the driver should be noosed and pulled around the pits.

It's his own son though.

Well, you wouldn't expect him to unconditionally condemn his own son, but you'd not expect him to unconditionally applaud his racist comments and say that they are signs of an "amazing man and amazing father," either.  Conditional condemnation is the minimum required of a decent human being.

As Sheilbh says, an "amazing man and amazing father" would absolutely disown the less-than-amazing son and man for making such vicious comments.  This isn't the time or place for "there are god people on both sides" arguments.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2020, 03:32:58 PM
An amazing father's son wouldn't make such comments, but if he did wouldn't be disowned either. It's not like he killed someone.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 23, 2020, 04:24:28 PM
How has NASCAR responded to this?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:15:45 PM
Standby, Seattle is going to be clearing CHOP soon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 06:32:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 23, 2020, 04:24:28 PM
How has NASCAR responded to this?
To the noose incident, it responded as well as possible, actually, though you can't help but wonder how much of that is just cynical virtue signalling.  As far as the Skinner dude, I don't think he's even involved in NASCAR, he's a complete nobody on his own merits.  He did get fired by his cocaine trafficking brother from his job.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:44:13 PM
No charges in noose case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 23, 2020, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:15:45 PM
Standby, Seattle is going to be clearing CHOP soon.

The Paris Commune cosplay gone south? What a dumpster fire.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:44:13 PM
No charges in noose case.

Yep.  It was there long before Wallace was assigned (last week) to that garage.  It's a loop that looks like a noose, but not a noose, and it's on the end of the garage door pull-down rope.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 08:16:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.

I miss Seedy on posts like this.  :cry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:41:58 PM
Yup 😢
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 23, 2020, 09:19:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.


Actually, I am glad that it wasn't what some people thought it was.  I'd much rather hear about imaginary racism than real racism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.

Apparently, I don't know how many FBI investigators I should have expected it to take, given that you seem to think that 15 was either much too large a number, or much too small a number.  What range of numbers would not have prompted you to post about the numbers at all, and why is 15 a noteworthy number?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 23, 2020, 09:50:07 PM
I hope this isn't going to backfire on Bubba Wallace and make it sound like it was a hoax.  It wasn't him who saw it and reported it, and I'm sure that whoever did was doing it with the best of intentions.  Rushing to the conclusion was unfortunate, but I guess it was unavoidable, because NASCAR couldn't keep this quiet while they investigated, that just wouldn't fly.  Good thing that Mike Skinner's imbecile son spoke up when he did, to show that while the noose was a misunderstanding, the racism everyone thought of was present and real regardless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.

Apparently, I don't know how many FBI investigators I should have expected it to take, given that you seem to think that 15 was either much too large a number, or much too small a number.  What range of numbers would not have prompted you to post about the numbers at all, and why is 15 a noteworthy number?

Dunno, man. I just think maybe people at the facility would have identified it as the pull rope common to those sliding garage doors instead of a noose.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 24, 2020, 01:32:09 AM
A bit weird that it got identified (by someone) as a noose, but of course unlikely stuff happens all the time and my guess is that it was an honest mistake.

My guess is that quite a few NASCAR fans agree with the spirit of SKINNERs!! hateful message. Is my guess wrong?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 24, 2020, 01:44:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.

Apparently, I don't know how many FBI investigators I should have expected it to take, given that you seem to think that 15 was either much too large a number, or much too small a number.  What range of numbers would not have prompted you to post about the numbers at all, and why is 15 a noteworthy number?
2 to take the deposition and inspect video cameras would have been sufficient.  I would think 15 agents is reserved for when a case needs to pursue a lot of leads in tracking down fugitive(s)/culprit(s).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 24, 2020, 01:47:18 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 10:39:16 PM
Dunno, man. I just think maybe people at the facility would have identified it as the pull rope common to those sliding garage doors instead of a noose.
I suppose once someone saw and reported a noose, the stand was off limits to everyone else, and no one ever thought "oh, it might just be that pull rope we use".

Given the current climate, given that NASCAR probably received a lot of threats/hateful messages for forbidding the flag, everyone was on edge.

That would be my guess.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 24, 2020, 02:45:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 24, 2020, 01:32:09 AM
A bit weird that it got identified (by someone) as a noose, but of course unlikely stuff happens all the time and my guess is that it was an honest mistake.

My guess is that quite a few NASCAR fans agree with the spirit of SKINNERs!! hateful message. Is my guess wrong?

I'm sure that depends on how you define quite a few.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 24, 2020, 03:24:07 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 24, 2020, 02:45:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 24, 2020, 01:32:09 AM
A bit weird that it got identified (by someone) as a noose, but of course unlikely stuff happens all the time and my guess is that it was an honest mistake.

My guess is that quite a few NASCAR fans agree with the spirit of SKINNERs!! hateful message. Is my guess wrong?

I'm sure that depends on how you define quite a few.

For the sake of argument, say 20%?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 24, 2020, 07:10:35 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 24, 2020, 01:44:24 AM
2 to take the deposition and inspect video cameras would have been sufficient.  I would think 15 agents is reserved for when a case needs to pursue a lot of leads in tracking down fugitive(s)/culprit(s).

So you, with your vast experience in investigations, would conclude that two was the right number and 15 would not be needed because this case didn't have lots of leads to track down?

Sure.  That's totally credible. 



NOT


I know all the Kool Kids love to sneer at law enforcement and pretend they could do better, but try not to let your ass show so much, mkay?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 24, 2020, 11:55:23 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 24, 2020, 01:44:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Apparently took 15 FBI investigators to figure that out. Glad it wasn't what some thought it was.

Apparently, I don't know how many FBI investigators I should have expected it to take, given that you seem to think that 15 was either much too large a number, or much too small a number.  What range of numbers would not have prompted you to post about the numbers at all, and why is 15 a noteworthy number?
2 to take the deposition and inspect video cameras would have been sufficient.  I would think 15 agents is reserved for when a case needs to pursue a lot of leads in tracking down fugitive(s)/culprit(s).

When you get a real proper investigation (and not the random scribblings of some beat cop at the end of his shift), I would say 98% of the work is useless.  The problem is you don't know which 98% will wind up being useless until you actually do the work.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 25, 2020, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:44:13 PM
No charges in noose case.

Yep.  It was there long before Wallace was assigned (last week) to that garage.  It's a loop that looks like a noose, but not a noose, and it's on the end of the garage door pull-down rope.

It's a pretty noose-looking loop, though.  :wacko:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbXvRPeXsAE-miO?format=jpg&name=360x360)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2020, 12:41:52 PM
Dang.  Very noose looking.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 25, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
That is a bit.....noosey.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on June 25, 2020, 12:47:27 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 25, 2020, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:44:13 PM
No charges in noose case.

Yep.  It was there long before Wallace was assigned (last week) to that garage.  It's a loop that looks like a noose, but not a noose, and it's on the end of the garage door pull-down rope.

It's a pretty noose-looking loop, though.  :wacko:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbXvRPeXsAE-miO?format=jpg&name=360x360)

That's a noose. I don't care how "inadvertent" that is, it's a noose. I've used tons of ropes on garages, storage units, etc., and if there's a loop, it's a quickly tied loop.

I'm not saying that it was deliberately put there to intimidate Bubba, but I am saying that it's not ridiculous to see that and go, "WTF? A noose!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on June 25, 2020, 01:30:48 PM
I guess it was designed with a view of using your neck to pull the door down?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2020, 01:33:20 PM
I'm guessing someone was told to put a pull cord on the door, he knew how to make a noose (it's moderately complex) and did so as a gag.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 25, 2020, 01:59:05 PM
Fun gag - it must be a southern thing, they probably teach it in Boy Scouts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 25, 2020, 02:07:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 25, 2020, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2020, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 23, 2020, 06:44:13 PM
No charges in noose case.

Yep.  It was there long before Wallace was assigned (last week) to that garage.  It's a loop that looks like a noose, but not a noose, and it's on the end of the garage door pull-down rope.

It's a pretty noose-looking loop, though.  :wacko:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbXvRPeXsAE-miO?format=jpg&name=360x360)

Yep, and I am willing to bet that someone thought that that would be a "cute" way to handle the excess rope.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 25, 2020, 02:08:15 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 25, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
That is a bit.....noosey.

Noosimus Maximus.

Biggus Noosus.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 25, 2020, 03:59:19 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 25, 2020, 01:59:05 PM
Fun gag - it must be a southern thing, they probably teach it in Boy Scouts.


They taught us that making a noose was illegal in the state of Missouri.  They still showed us how. Maybe so we could untie it if we came across one.  Sadly, noose tying along with every other sort of knot tying was beyond me.  I only learned to tie my shoes in middle school and I'm still kind of iffy on it.  I don't know why I couldn't do stuff like that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 26, 2020, 10:56:17 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 24, 2020, 07:10:35 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 24, 2020, 01:44:24 AM
2 to take the deposition and inspect video cameras would have been sufficient.  I would think 15 agents is reserved for when a case needs to pursue a lot of leads in tracking down fugitive(s)/culprit(s).

So you, with your vast experience in investigations, would conclude that two was the right number and 15 would not be needed because this case didn't have lots of leads to track down?

Sure.  That's totally credible. 



NOT


I know all the Kool Kids love to sneer at law enforcement and pretend they could do better, but try not to let your ass show so much, mkay?
Ok, how many agents does it take to begin an investigation?
You need some techs to gather prints/dna, but why 15 agents to investigate?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 26, 2020, 01:15:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 26, 2020, 10:56:17 AM

Ok, how many agents does it take to begin an investigation?
You need some techs to gather prints/dna, but why 15 agents to investigate?

If an investigation is going to take 15 man-days to complete, you can do it with 15 agents for a day, 3 agents for 5 days each, one agent for 15 days, or any combination totaling 15 man-days.  I don't see why anyone needs to sneer at the FBI because they wanted a highly public investigation completed as soon as possible.  Frankly, I wanted the same thing, given the racial tensions in the US right now.

This isn't rocket science.  It's just common sense.  Or uncommon sense, in the case of Languish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 26, 2020, 04:30:39 PM
Quote from: celedhring on June 25, 2020, 01:30:48 PM
I guess it was designed with a view of using your neck to pull the door down?
seems small for a neck, but the right size to grabe it with your hand, like a handle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 27, 2020, 06:10:31 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/princeton-university-rename-woodrow-wilson-school-racism-a9589526.html

Bye, Wilson.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2020, 01:04:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 27, 2020, 06:10:31 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/princeton-university-rename-woodrow-wilson-school-racism-a9589526.html

Bye, Wilson.
John Wayne is next in line.  Democrats are already asking for his name to be erased, the Moses way in The Ten Commandments.

And eventually, someone will have to decide what to do with Washington.  So far, only a few are raising questions about him, his dental work, his 300 slaves, his shuffling of "property" to flout the emancipation laws of Pennsylvania, etc, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2020, 03:56:28 AM
Must have already happened, I don't remember Wayne being in The Ten Commandments.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2020, 10:35:58 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2020, 03:56:28 AM
Must have already happened, I don't remember Wayne being in The Ten Commandments.  ;)
just meant that in the movie, Moses' name is stricken from everywhere so it is as he never existed in Egypt.

Democrats renew push to strip John Wayne's name from Orange county airport (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/democrats-renew-push-to-strip-john-waynes-name-from-orange-county-airport)

Quote

Democrats in Orange County, California, have restarted efforts to remove actor John Wayne's name from the local airport.

Citing Wayne's controversial comments about race relations in America, the officials passed an emergency resolution last week condemning his "racist and bigoted statements" made during an interview with Playboy Magazine in 1971.

"There have been past efforts to get this done and now we're putting our name and our backing into this to make sure there is a name change," said Ada Briceno, chairwoman of the local Democratic Party.

In the 1971 interview, Wayne told a reporter he believes in white supremacy "until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility."

"I don't believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people," he said.

On slavery, Wayne, a longtime Orange County resident, said, "I don't feel guilty about the fact that five or 10 generations ago these people were slaves."

The resolution asked the county board to change the name of the airport back to its original name, Orange County Airport.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2020, 11:07:23 AM
Also, texts about Washington and his slaves constantly comes back during this discussions.  That must be the 3rd one I've come accross in the last few weeks:
George and Martha Washington enslaved 300 people.  Let's start with their names (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-and-martha-washington-enslaved-300-people-lets-start-with-their-names/2020/06/26/d3f7c362-b7e7-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html)

QuoteSince this moment of reckoning has led to a prickly discussion about our Founding Fathers' slave-owning pasts, let us take a moment, starting with George Washington, to think about the people they enslaved.

Let's start with the names. Because so few of us know them. Because their names have been omitted from history books and are barely mentioned in the many volumes that chronicle Washington's life as a military hero and Founding Father.

Austin

Moll

Giles

Ona Judge

Paris

Hercules

Joe

Richmond

Christopher Sheels

William Lee

That's just 10 names of the more than 300 people enslaved by George and Martha Washington. They worked and traveled most closely with our nation's first First Family as chamber maids, postilions, cooks, waiters, laborers, seamstresses and valets.

Did you know that George Washington had only one tooth in his mouth when he became president in 1789, thanks to bad health and 18th-century dentistry? But his false teeth were not made of wood, as is often described in folk songs and lore. His dentures were made from the pulled teeth of slaves.
AD

Roll that around in your head for a minute.

Did you know that the president was often unwell, having survived two wars and a nasty bout with a cutaneous form of anthrax? He was tended to by Richmond and William Lee during long stretches when he was unable to sit or stand.

Did you know that some of the names belong to people who were "dower slaves," legally controlled by Martha? She had the money in the family as a widow who was left with thousands of acres and hundreds of people when her first husband, Daniel Parke Custis, died.

Did you know that when Ona Judge escaped, Martha insisted that George do everything in his power to track her down so she could gift her to a granddaughter as an attendant (thus avoiding the need to reimburse her first husband's estate for loss of property)? And yes, the correct word is "property," because next to acreage (as in real estate), the enslaved composed the greatest source of wealth for families such as the Washingtons.
AD

And let's not forget that one of the reasons that our nation's capital was moved to Washington, D.C., was it was closer to Virginia, where slavery was practiced and protected under law. When Washington traveled to New York — or, later, to Philadelphia — to preside over a newly formed government, he left all but a few of his slaves behind at Mount Vernon. Once Washington moved north, he was legally at risk of losing his slaves in the City of Brotherly Love.

Did you know that Pennsylvania's Gradual Abolition Act of 1780 held that if you lived in that state for more than six months with enslaved people, they could successfully petition for their freedom?

Correspondence shows that Washington thought he was exempt from that law because his work required that he reside in the state for an extended period. His attorney general, Edmund Jennings Randolph, cleared up that false impression when he knocked on Washington's High Street door in Philadelphia one day to say that Randolph's own slaves had familiarized themselves with that law and were packing up to leave.

What changes do you hope will come out of protests and debates about police and race? Write to The Post.

So the Washingtons came up with an elaborate shuffling plan to cycle in and out of Pennsylvania so their slaves would never hit the legal threshold for freedom. Sometimes they would take a trip back to Virginia. Sometimes they would just make an excuse to go across the river to New Jersey. The schedule was complicated and burdensome, but Washington kept it up because he and Martha were determined to keep the people they owned in bondage.

Washington explained in a letter to his secretary Tobias Lear that the scheme was meant to deceive the enslaved and the public, said Erica Armstrong Dunbar, a professor of history at Rutgers and author of the book "Never Caught: The Washingtons' Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave Ona Judge."

The man who supposedly never told a lie figured out how to stretch the truth.

Did you know that Washington's cook, Hercules, also escaped? He did so on Washington's birthday, a departure with an unmistakable message.

These are just some of the stories. (Many others are in Dunbar's book, which ought to be on Americans' reading list about our real history.) The Washingtons had hundreds of people on their official slave census. Mostly, we don't know their names or their stories. There are no buildings named for them. No statues. Yet their toil and their torture helped to build a new nation.

Many say Washington deserves some measure of grace because he arranged to free some of his slaves upon his death. So, he did in death what he would not do in life? We must own up to the fact that he owned people, that those people were separated from their loved ones, made to work without pay, made to live without dignity, made to suffer whippings, made to disappear. Because of that their names are monuments unto themselves.

Names we should remember.

Austin

Moll

Giles

Ona Judge

Paris

Hercules

Joe

Richmond

Christopher Sheels

William Lee

. . . And so many more.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 12:27:50 PM
Just got a new stick of Land o' Lakes butter out of the fridge, and lo and behold there's an Indian babe on the packaging.  Either Beeber had bad info or they use different art in Canada and the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on June 29, 2020, 12:32:04 PM
Might have been old packaging they wanted to use up.  At Kroger I noticed about a month or so ago she was gone from all the LoL packaging there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 29, 2020, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 12:27:50 PM
Just got a new stick of Land o' Lakes butter out of the fridge, and lo and behold there's an Indian babe on the packaging.  Either Beeber had bad info or they use different art in Canada and the US.

We have dairy supply management in Canada - you may have heard of it, as it is always causing trade friction with the US.

Which means we get hardly any US dairy products in Canada.  Never seen LOL butter here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 29, 2020, 12:56:13 PM
Is brand name butter worth shelling out the extra pennies for? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 12:59:26 PM
Certain brands. President springs to mind :mmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 29, 2020, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 12:59:26 PM
Certain brands. President springs to mind :mmm:

Shilling for the French butter industry?  :P  :frog:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on June 29, 2020, 01:22:04 PM
I got some recently and it was identical to the old one, but without the Native American.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 01:27:23 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 29, 2020, 12:56:13 PM
Is brand name butter worth shelling out the extra pennies for? :unsure:

You can taste the Native American goodness in every bite of Land o' Lakes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 03:37:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRlrMu37lc

Two overweight white people point their weapons at demonstrators in front of the (Democratic) mayor's mansion.

The mayor is catching shit for publicizing names and addresses of people who called for defunding the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:37:35 PM
Valmy, they've come for your Golden Girls.  Hulu has pulled a blackface* episode.

*mud mask, but there's a quip about "we're not really black".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on June 29, 2020, 03:40:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 03:37:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRlrMu37lc

Two overweight white people point their weapons at demonstrators in front of the (Democratic) mayor's mansion.

The mayor is catching shit for publicizing names and addresses of people who called for defunding the police.

Well regulated militia and all that.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:40:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:37:35 PM
Valmy, they've come for your Golden Girls.  Hulu has pulled a blackface* episode.

*mud mask, but there's a quip about "we're not really black".

When did the Golden Girls become mine? :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:44:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:40:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:37:35 PM
Valmy, they've come for your Golden Girls.  Hulu has pulled a blackface* episode.

*mud mask, but there's a quip about "we're not really black".

When did the Golden Girls become mine? :P

You mentioned watching the show in the past so now in my mind it's linked you you hah
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 03:47:27 PM
I love Golden Girls and have seen plenty of BLM activists kicking off about this. I don't think I've seen anyone ask for this about any TV show. It's weird.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:49:41 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:44:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:40:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:37:35 PM
Valmy, they've come for your Golden Girls.  Hulu has pulled a blackface* episode.

*mud mask, but there's a quip about "we're not really black".

When did the Golden Girls become mine? :P

You mentioned watching the show in the past so now in my mind it's linked you you hah

Ah well. I am not familiar with that episode so I hope it wasn't a very good one :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 03:47:27 PM
I love Golden Girls and have seen plenty of BLM activists kicking off about this. I don't think I've seen anyone ask for this about any TV show. It's weird.

Really? Huh.

One of the things I don't like about streaming services is the ability to do this kind of post-editing. They will just drop episodes or scenes and it is like they have been removed from history. Disney has been doing that with the old Simpsons episodes I hear and it is kind of disconcerting I think.

Don't throw out your DVDs quite yet.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 03:59:19 PM
That's my point. Corporations are doing this but I don't think anyone has been calling for it. As a BLM protestor put it, what part of "stop killing us" did you read as "remove Golden Girls episodes"? :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 04:02:02 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 03:59:19 PM
That's my point. Corporations are doing this but I don't think anyone has been calling for it. As a BLM protestor put it, what part of "stop killing us" did you read as "remove Golden Girls episodes"? :lol:

The same part that we read as no more statues of slave owners.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:06:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 04:02:02 PM
The same part that we read as no more statues of slave owners.
Right - but with that I can point to people who are campaigning on that issue and it's been a theme since Charlottesville (and I actually wonder how much of this was Bristol re-igniting that in an internet/social media world). I haven't seen anyone saying we need to be going through TV shows and removing episodes.

It just seems like companies sort of wanting to do something, and this is something, rather than them doing it in response to literally any pressure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 29, 2020, 04:07:41 PM
It's normally better to remove a risk before it becomes a problem. Why expose yourself to risk?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 04:08:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:06:16 PM
Right - but with that I can point to people who are campaigning on that issue and it's been a theme since Charlottesville (and I actually wonder how much of this was Bristol re-igniting that in an internet/social media world). I haven't seen anyone saying we need to be going through TV shows and removing episodes.

It just seems like companies sort of wanting to do something, and this is something, rather than them doing it in response to literally any pressure.

I have seen plenty of people say black face is verbotten.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 29, 2020, 04:10:14 PM
I wonder if Mad Men still streams with the blackface scene or not. They took the show off my Netflix recently so I can't check.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 04:13:22 PM
Blackface? Yes. Women wearing mud facemasks? No.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Savonarola on June 29, 2020, 04:16:55 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:44:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:40:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 29, 2020, 03:37:35 PM
Valmy, they've come for your Golden Girls.  Hulu has pulled a blackface* episode.

*mud mask, but there's a quip about "we're not really black".

When did the Golden Girls become mine? :P

You mentioned watching the show in the past so now in my mind it's linked you you hah

Well then here's some good news for Valmy:

Protesters set up guillotine in front of Jeff Bezos' DC home: reports (https://www.foxnews.com/us/amazon-jeff-bezos-guillotine-dc-protests)

Aux armes citoyens. :frog:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:26:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 04:13:22 PM
Blackface? Yes. Women wearing mud facemasks? No.
Sure - but, and maybe I'm missing it, I've not seen anyone calling for existing shows to be withdrawn. There are some that already have been culturally - you won't find certain British sitcoms from the 70s streaming for example. They've been memory-holed over the years because they were just racist rather than because of a campaign about it.

Maybe I'm missing this strand of activists running around campaigning for the removal of old Golden Girls episodes but I just don't get where it's come from really.

Edit: Except for corporations wanting to do "something" to support the protests.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:51:37 PM


One of the things I don't like about streaming services is the ability to do this kind of post-editing. They will just drop episodes or scenes and it is like they have been removed from history. Disney has been doing that with the old Simpsons episodes I hear and it is kind of disconcerting I think.

Don't throw out your DVDs quite yet.

:yes:

A new raison d'être for physical media! It's not like choice for "old" movies and shows was great on legal streaming anyways.
Keep your Star Wars Laserdics, just in case you don't have access to the net.  :whistle:

PS: blu-ray is nice too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:26:18 PM
Sure - but, and maybe I'm missing it, I've not seen anyone calling for existing shows to be withdrawn. There are some that already have been culturally - you won't find certain British sitcoms from the 70s streaming for example. They've been memory-holed over the years because they were just racist rather than because of a campaign about it.

Maybe I'm missing this strand of activists running around campaigning for the removal of old Golden Girls episodes but I just don't get where it's come from really.

Edit: Except for corporations wanting to do "something" to support the protests.

I haven't seen any campaigns calling for professional women who wear black face to mock Megyn Kelly to be sent home from Halloween parties either, but when it happens it happens.

Like Hillary said, they're obviously doing it as a preemptive move because once the Twitter screaming starts it's too late.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 29, 2020, 04:32:22 PM
Almost no one will be very upset over some episodes or scenes being removed. Quite a few people could conceivably be very upset if anything that may resemble controversial stuff remains. Seems like a simple choice to me, minimizing risk for a business.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on June 29, 2020, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:26:18 PM
Maybe I'm missing this strand of activists running around campaigning for the removal of old Golden Girls episodes but I just don't get where it's come from really.

No. In fact, some of my activist friends are furious about it, precisely because it's so ridiculous and risks derailing the conversation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:51:37 PM


One of the things I don't like about streaming services is the ability to do this kind of post-editing. They will just drop episodes or scenes and it is like they have been removed from history. Disney has been doing that with the old Simpsons episodes I hear and it is kind of disconcerting I think.

Don't throw out your DVDs quite yet.

:yes:

A new raison d'être for physical media! It's not like choice for "old" movies and shows was great on legal streaming anyways.
Keep your Star Wars Laserdics, just in case you don't have access to the net.  :whistle:

PS: blu-ray is nice too.

Huh. As usual I have no idea if you are being sarcastic or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 29, 2020, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 04:26:18 PM
Maybe I'm missing this strand of activists running around campaigning for the removal of old Golden Girls episodes but I just don't get where it's come from really.

No. In fact, some of my activist friends are furious about it, precisely because it's so ridiculous and risks derailing the conversation.
Yeah - as I say I wonder if the US protests (which are far better focused than in the UK) would have gone down the cultural direction without Bristol which resonated on social media.

It reminds me of Charlottesville - we spent about two days talking about white supremacist terrorism and then moved on to statues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 29, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
Like many of you, I'm absolutely confounded by this bizarre removing of TV shows from netflix and youtubers cancelling themselves and so on. Where on earth is this coming from? Mighty Boosh is off netflix because of The Spirit of Jazz? Bizzarre.

I'm all about taking down statues of people that attacked the United States, inside the United States, especially as they were determined to own other Americans, but how that's transmutated into this curious performance on streaming services and social media I have no clue. Jenna Marbles has cancelled herself? What?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 29, 2020, 04:52:05 PM
People: police reform!

Democrats: We kneel in Kente Cloth and ban Chokeholds!

People: That's not what we asked for!

Netflix: Mighty Boosh is gone away!!!

People: wtf?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 29, 2020, 05:59:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 03:37:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRlrMu37lc

Two overweight white people point their weapons at demonstrators in front of the (Democratic) mayor's mansion.

The mayor is catching shit for publicizing names and addresses of people who called for defunding the police.

Obviously they are white, because the police haven't murdered them yet.  If they'd been black, they'd be in the morgue.

They still should have been arrested for brandishing.  You can't point a gun at people not on your property.  But the cops probably just wanted them to go ahead and shoot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
Quote from: fromtia on June 29, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
Like many of you, I'm absolutely confounded by this bizarre removing of TV shows from netflix and youtubers cancelling themselves and so on. Where on earth is this coming from? Mighty Boosh is off netflix because of The Spirit of Jazz? Bizzarre.

I'm all about taking down statues of people that attacked the United States, inside the United States, especially as they were determined to own other Americans, but how that's transmutated into this curious performance on streaming services and social media I have no clue. Jenna Marbles has cancelled herself? What?

QuoteThe white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 29, 2020, 06:22:14 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 29, 2020, 12:56:13 PM
Is brand name butter worth shelling out the extra pennies for? :unsure:
No.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 06:39:03 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice.
[/quote]

What part of "stop killing us" did you read as economic equity?

You guys want to have it both ways.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on June 29, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 06:39:03 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice.

What part of "stop killing us" did you read as economic equity?

You guys want to have it both ways.

It's a Malcolm X quote.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 06:51:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 06:39:03 PM
What part of "stop killing us" did you read as economic equity?

You guys want to have it both ways.
Not really, my point is there's no protests or even individual protesters calling for TV channels to scrub Golden Girls - literally zero. I think it's fair to say there is an economic part of these protests not least at brands trying to elbow their way in.

All I'd like them to do is pay good wages, hire and promote people without discrimination and have a decent benefits and retirement package (or as Norm Kirk put it most people don't want much, they just want "someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for"). Corporations hear that and roll out their rainbow coloured logo, announce they support BLM and get rid of the episode of Golden Girls were they wore face masks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on June 29, 2020, 07:07:10 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
QuoteThe white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice.
Stop writing your outrage to these big corporations and maybe they'll stop removing their old shows.

Lessons in activism 101: just like war, concentrate on your objectives, avoid spreading your lines too thin.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 29, 2020, 07:19:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 29, 2020, 05:59:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 03:37:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRlrMu37lc

Two overweight white people point their weapons at demonstrators in front of the (Democratic) mayor's mansion.

The mayor is catching shit for publicizing names and addresses of people who called for defunding the police.

Obviously they are white, because the police haven't murdered them yet.  If they'd been black, they'd be in the morgue.

They still should have been arrested for brandishing.  You can't point a gun at people not on your property.  But the cops probably just wanted them to go ahead and shoot.

The news I have seen indicates that it was their property (at least, a private street/neighborhood that the protestors were cutting through).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on June 29, 2020, 07:19:46 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 29, 2020, 05:59:52 PM

Obviously they are white, because the police haven't murdered them yet.  If they'd been black, they'd be in the morgue.

They still should have been arrested for brandishing.  You can't point a gun at people not on your property.  But the cops probably just wanted them to go ahead and shoot.

They are also pretty well off, unless they are house sitting for their rich uncle. Dude, the size of that place...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: FunkMonk on June 29, 2020, 07:36:54 PM
They look like they've never held a firearm in their lives  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 07:37:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 06:51:38 PM
Not really, my point is there's no protests or even individual protesters calling for TV channels to scrub Golden Girls - literally zero. I think it's fair to say there is an economic part of these protests not least at brands trying to elbow their way in.

You keep repeating this as if it's a killer line.  As we've discussed at length before, BLM, or protesters in general, have not presented policy papers with detailed requests/demands.  You've all argued that it's up to policy makers, or in this case, companies, to try to come up with policies that will  meet the generalized demands.  That's what this network is trying to do, eliminate what some could perceive as racially insensitive.

No where on a list of demands did it say change all state flags that include the Confederate battle flag, ban Confederate flags at NASCAR, or remove all statues of Confederates, but I don't see you mocking those actions.

To pre-empt your expected reply, yes, those are long standing grievances, but by exactly the same token so is black face.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 29, 2020, 07:19:09 PM
The news I have seen indicates that it was their property (at least, a private street/neighborhood that the protestors were cutting through).

I'm the victim of a bad Bloomberg headline.

"Missouri Couple Points Guns at Protesters Outside Home of St. Louis Mayor"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 29, 2020, 08:41:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 29, 2020, 07:19:09 PM
The news I have seen indicates that it was their property (at least, a private street/neighborhood that the protestors were cutting through).

I'm the victim of a bad Bloomberg headline.

"Missouri Couple Points Guns at Protesters Outside Home of St. Louis Mayor"

The mayor's home was in the neighborhood.  Private roads, though, are not private property,* they are just privately maintained


*Exception:  some 'roads' are just driveways and on only one person's property, not on an easement.  They are entirely private property, and aren't formally roads at all, just driveways.  But that wasn't the case here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 08:44:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 06:39:03 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice.

What part of "stop killing us" did you read as economic equity?

You guys want to have it both ways.
[/quote]

Stop killing us would be in the real justice part of the quote. Or really just having a shred of decency/compassion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the protesters' main demand is police reform, not golden girls episodes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 08:52:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 07:37:18 PM
You keep repeating this as if it's a killer line.  As we've discussed at length before, BLM, or protesters in general, have not presented policy papers with detailed requests/demands.  You've all argued that it's up to policy makers, or in this case, companies, to try to come up with policies that will  meet the generalized demands.  That's what this network is trying to do, eliminate what some could perceive as racially insensitive.
That wasn't my point about policy makers. I would see this as a classic example of virtue signalling.

QuoteNo where on a list of demands did it say change all state flags that include the Confederate battle flag, ban Confederate flags at NASCAR, or remove all statues of Confederates, but I don't see you mocking those actions.
No. But I query the extent they would have happened without Bristol. I think the statues debate after Charlottesville was really annoying because it distracted from the bigger issue. I think in the UK those protests have largely been subsumed into a dispute about culture, which is a shame because I think BLM has less traction because fewer people die because of the police here. But I think there was the potential for a more focused campaigns on - the difference in fatality for BAME communities in the covid crisis, Grenfell etc. There are big issues to fix.

I've been impressed in the US that the protesters are actually being fairly disciplined and keeping the pressure up on

QuoteTo pre-empt your expected reply, yes, those are long standing grievances, but by exactly the same token so is black face.
Yeah. So I think the long standing grievance is a fair point, but I also think there's a difference between the culture of our public space and sort of cultural artifacts. You know a text or a film or a TV series is created in a particular moment from a particular society and its then read by people then and people now, and the way we read it may change. But ultimately it's always a product of the moment it was created even if we receive it in a different way.

The culture of our public space is something we are always creating - it's always in the present, that's why my personal preference with statues would be to use art as a way to contest the public space you know almost to humiliate the men on pedestals. So those examples don't tell us what people in the 1970s thought - they tell us now who is welcome at an event, what is the symbol of the state, who are the heroes on street signs and pedestals. It's present tense.

Leaving aside Golden Girls - when they were in face masks! - I see a ot of American activists being annoyed at this stuff for distracting and also especially when NBC removed blackface episodes from 30 Rock an attempt to rewrite or exonerate themselves. And I think how we approach this will probably shift over time. So in the UK there was a furore of a TV station removing an episode of Fawlty Towers - it turns out many people (me included) had never actually seen the original episode which included a really strong rant by the Colonel which had basically been cut from every broadcast since the 1980s. Similarly there were loads of really racist British comedies in the 1970s which have been memory holed in part, because they're racist but in large part because they're bad - they haven't held up.

I think over time 90% of the racist cultural products will disappear not necessarily because they're racist, but because they're bad. The ones that remain will, like Birth of a Nation, be heavily caveated, trigger warned and explained. You know, Faulkner will last - I would be astonished if anyone is reading Gone with the Wind in 50 years time. And, much as I love 30 Rock, it probably shouldn't be allowed to pretend that it didn't make a blackface episode in the last 20 years when that was already unacceptable. It should probably just have a warning at the start of the episode. But as I say my bigger point is I've not really seen anyone in the protests focusing on these cultural issues - I think because they learned from Charlottesville, I think the focus in the US has been very impressive.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 09:25:57 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 29, 2020, 08:44:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the protesters' main demand is police reform, not golden girls episodes.

I will correct you.  I have heard the slogans "black lives matter," "stop shooting," "stop killing black people," "defund the police," etc., but I haven't heard anyone chanting "police reform!"

I will agree that taking episodes of The Golden Girls off the air has not been a main demand.  In fact I agree that no protester has mentioned Golden Girls. 

Does that mean that anything not specifically mentioned by protesters is acceptable to do?  I haven't heard mention of NASCAR either, as I already mentioned.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 08:52:04 PM
No. But I query the extent they would have happened without Bristol. I think the statues debate after Charlottesville was really annoying because it distracted from the bigger issue. I think in the UK those protests have largely been subsumed into a dispute about culture, which is a shame because I think BLM has less traction because fewer people die because of the police here. But I think there was the potential for a more focused campaigns on - the difference in fatality for BAME communities in the covid crisis, Grenfell etc. There are big issues to fix.

I've been impressed in the US that the protesters are actually being fairly disciplined and keeping the pressure up on

This part seems more like a critique of the protesters than a response to the issue I had been discussing, which was attempts to meet vague demands.

QuoteYeah. So I think the long standing grievance is a fair point, but I also think there's a difference between the culture of our public space and sort of cultural artifacts. You know a text or a film or a TV series is created in a particular moment from a particular society and its then read by people then and people now, and the way we read it may change. But ultimately it's always a product of the moment it was created even if we receive it in a different way. <snip>

And this part part sounds more like a discussion of the validity of removing currently offensive culture product from the public's eye than the issue I had been discussing, which was attempts to meet vague demands.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 29, 2020, 09:39:45 PM
I would say that economic inequality and police shootings are connected.  Compared to middle class and wealthy citizens, poor people tend to have much less pleasant encounters with the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 10:04:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
This part seems more like a critique of the protesters than a response to the issue I had been discussing, which was attempts to meet vague demands.

[...]

And this part part sounds more like a discussion of the validity of removing currently offensive culture product from the public's eye than the issue I had been discussing, which was attempts to meet vague demands.
Sure. I don't quite get your point though. It's possible to have multiple thoughts about the same thing at once - I'd definitely criticise UK protesters (frankly too many of the usual suspects have, I think, hijacked the protests), but wouldn't have the same criticism of the US protests.

I also think my bigger criticism/disagreement is that I don't think corporations are trying to meet any demands. I think they're trying to get credit and doing it in a really tone deaf way - as is their way when the brands interact with reality. I don't think the corporations have really been making a good faith effort, as I say I think they're virtue signalling.

And I think there's a difference between the public's eye and a public space which gets at what I was meaning. We watch one, we participate and live in the other.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 10:04:55 PM
Sure. I don't quite get your point though. It's possible to have multiple thoughts about the same thing at once - I'd definitely criticise UK protesters (frankly too many of the usual suspects have, I think, hijacked the protests), but wouldn't have the same criticism of the US protests.

I also think my bigger criticism/disagreement is that I don't think corporations are trying to meet any demands. I think they're trying to get credit and doing it in a really tone deaf way - as is their way when the brands interact with reality. I don't think the corporations have really been making a good faith effort, as I say I think they're virtue signalling.

And I think there's a difference between the public's eye and a public space which gets at what I was meaning. We watch one, we participate and live in the other.

What's the difference between meeting demands and trying to get credit/virtue signalling?  Which was the Minneapolis city council doing when they said they would "defund" the police department?  Which was Nancy Pelosi doing when she introduced a bill banning sales of military equipment to police departments? 

It's a meaningless distinction.  All it tells us is that you like these people and you dislike those people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2020, 10:30:06 PM
You always accuse me of liking x people and disliking y people :P

So I don't like the phrasing of demands - I don't think it quite works with protests or it misunderstands them. Which we've talked about before, I don't really think protests work that way. And I've no issue with people trying to take credit - whether they are successful is another matter. And you've got a point with Pelosi especially because she's got a Republican Senate and President, so all she can do is signal. But she's a politician so that's a really important thing.

The difference I'd draw out goes back to my original point: what Minneapolis and Pelosi have been trying to do is directly linked to the protests.

What the network corporation is doing is something no-one asked for and has been criticised when it's happened before (30 Rock was earlier this week) by the very activists they are ostensibly supporting - which is why I think it's more similar to my examples of brands changing all their social media logos to rainbows or issuing statements in support of BLM or doing the #BlackoutTuesday thing. It just feels very Ralph Wiggum "I'm helping."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 29, 2020, 10:36:04 PM
The Golden Girls issue has nothing to do with virtue signalling.  It has to do with how large bureaucratic organizations manage cultural change.  There is a reason Disney doesn't screen and stream Song of the South; that sucker is staying firmly in the Vault.   You want your Zippiddee Doo Dahs you go on the sanitized water ride.  I haven't seen the episode in question but safe to say that present day corporate guidelines would probably have stopped it before it ever aired.  And if it wouldn't be made now why would you stream it now?  You can accuse the company of "virtue signalling" or you can say they are just being respectful of all components of their audience and from where I stand it looks the same.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2020, 10:54:41 PM
We're going in circles Shelf.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 29, 2020, 11:20:17 PM
Appalling trigger discipline.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbuCoTLWoAEIY_f?format=png&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 29, 2020, 11:47:36 PM
Yeah, I think that might be a violation of Missouri law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 30, 2020, 12:32:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 29, 2020, 11:47:36 PM
Yeah, I think that might be a violation of Missouri law.

I'm sure the police showed up and put them in there place. :)



:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on June 30, 2020, 12:37:35 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 30, 2020, 12:32:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 29, 2020, 11:47:36 PM
Yeah, I think that might be a violation of Missouri law.

I'm sure the police showed up and put them in there place. :)



:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

They were defunded.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2020, 06:52:40 AM
I can't help but find links between these ridiculous public self-flagellations of show cancellation and white voice actors quitting voicing mixed race characters, and our Christian cultural roots. It's how we still have indulgence papers with the bloody buy this to compensate for your carbon footprint nonsense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 30, 2020, 07:33:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 30, 2020, 06:52:40 AM
I can't help but find links between these ridiculous public self-flagellations of show cancellation and white voice actors quitting voicing mixed race characters, and our Christian cultural roots. It's how we still have indulgence papers with the bloody buy this to compensate for your carbon footprint nonsense.

Good thing Luther put an end to indulgences.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 30, 2020, 07:35:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2020, 03:51:37 PM


One of the things I don't like about streaming services is the ability to do this kind of post-editing. They will just drop episodes or scenes and it is like they have been removed from history. Disney has been doing that with the old Simpsons episodes I hear and it is kind of disconcerting I think.

Don't throw out your DVDs quite yet.

:yes:

A new raison d'être for physical media! It's not like choice for "old" movies and shows was great on legal streaming anyways.
Keep your Star Wars Laserdics, just in case you don't have access to the net.  :whistle:

PS: blu-ray is nice too.

Huh. As usual I have no idea if you are being sarcastic or not.

I honestly prefer physical media, if given the choice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 30, 2020, 01:16:06 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 30, 2020, 07:35:39 AM
I honestly prefer physical media, if given the choice.

Gotcha :lol:

Yeah I have come around to the idea that it is better to have physical media. I was pretty close to just getting rid of it all but seeing the darker implications of streaming have changed my mind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 01, 2020, 08:10:53 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/01/injured-boy-stopped-and-searched-by-met-officer-he-asked-for-help

QuoteInjured boy 'stopped and searched' by Met officer he asked for help

Rights groups have criticised police after a boy of 16, attacked by far-right opponents of a Black Lives Matter demonstration in London, said he was stopped and searched by the policeman he had asked for help.

The teenager, who is black, said that even though he had been injured in the attack, the police officer he approached for protection looked him over, searched him and told him to find medical help elsewhere.


His family is preparing to launch a complaint against the Metropolitan police.

Katrina Ffrench, chief executive of StopWatch, the UK organisation that works to promote fair and accountable policing, said: "It is disgraceful that an injured child asks the police for assistance and is treated like a criminal.

"This is precisely the type of disservice that causes young people to not trust and engage with police. The officers involved need to be reprimanded; rather than support this boy they searched him, despite there being no grounds that he was carrying any illegal items."

Gerard, who preferred not to give his full name, and two friends had travelled together from Essex to join the Black Lives Matter protest on Saturday, 13 June, unaware that organisers had called off the rally to avoid confrontations with far-right protesters and football hooligans.

The boys were near Victoria Street, in Westminster, when far-right protesters confronted them and Gerard became separated from his friends. He was attacked and knocked to the ground when one assailant hit him in the face with a bottle, cutting him below his left eye.

"When I was on the floor I was thinking ... I don't really know how I'm going to get out of this and if I do get out of it I still don't know how I'm going to end up," he told Channel 4 News. "When I was able to stand up I felt blessed that I was even able to stand up after what happened."

A bystander came to his rescue, separating him from his attackers and going with him to find a police officer. Gerard said he asked the officer to help him to safety, or to an ambulance.

"And he was like: no," Gerard said. "He had to go and help the rest of his team. He did at least try to talk me through it and look for injuries, but he also stopped and searched me."

The Metropolitan police said there was a section 60 order in force, giving officers the power to stop and search "those they believed to have been involved in violence", and that the officer who had first assessed Gerard "deemed [his injury] was not serious".

In a statement, the force said that police told Gerard's family about what had happened and had begun an investigation into the attack on him, which was being treated as a racially aggravated assault. But Gerard's family have said that police contacted them only after Channel 4 News began asking questions. They contest several details of the Met's account.

Suresh Grover, of the Monitoring Group, an antiracist organisation, has been supporting Gerard's family. He said: "Gerard was a victim of an unprovoked and brutal racially motivated assault, the intention was to kill him and he is lucky to be alive. He was bleeding heavily from his eye and in a state of a shock when he sought help from a police officer but he wasn't afforded the protection that he rightly deserved.

"Instead of being treated as victim, he was viewed as suspect. That attitude stems from a mindset of seeing black young teenagers as problem. It took one of Gerard's white friends to ask another police officer to call the ambulance.

"We are working with the family to ensure that Gerard recovers properly and to ensure that the police investigation of the assault and the stabbing is investigated properly. The family has asked us to initiate the complaints process."

Kevin Blowe, coordinator of the police monitoring group Netpol, said: "This was a racist attack. For decades local police monitoring groups argued that treating black people as second-class citizens when they report racist violence was the flipside to the stop-and-search racial profiling that immediately treats black communities as criminals.

"The grim inevitability of Gerard's treatment is a direct challenge to the claim last year by the commissioner, Cressida Dick, that 'this is an utterly different Metropolitan police', one that is no longer institutionally racist."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 01, 2020, 08:40:01 AM
Should have been born white than none of this would have happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 01, 2020, 08:58:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 01, 2020, 08:10:53 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/01/injured-boy-stopped-and-searched-by-met-officer-he-asked-for-help

QuoteInjured boy 'stopped and searched' by Met officer he asked for help

"The grim inevitability of Gerard's treatment is a direct challenge to the claim last year by the commissioner, Cressida Dick, that 'this is an utterly different Metropolitan police', one that is no longer institutionally racist."

Disturbing.

Also Ch4 News covered this about two week ago, you should give it a try, a more 'progressive' approach the BLM issues than the Beeb or Sky.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 02, 2020, 12:53:08 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)

As before the thing degenerated into symbolic issues, which seems kind of ominous. We should all be following the case in Minnesota as it unfolds.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 02, 2020, 04:26:21 PM
"Non Mask - No Service" ... doesn't seem to apply if you're cop.  :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/PeterRQuinones/status/1278669366448488450?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 03, 2020, 12:04:54 AM
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/505592-massachusetts-detective-fired-after-post-supporting-black-lives-matter

QuoteMassachusetts detective fired after post supporting Black Lives Matter

A Massachusetts detective has been fired over a social media post last month expressing support of her niece attending a Black Lives Matter rally.

According to a report from MassLive.com, Florissa Fuentes, who had recently joined the Springfield Police Department's Special Victims Unit, was fired on June 19 after a May post she made while not on duty.

"After I posted it, I started getting calls and texts from co-workers," Florissa Fuentes told MassLive.com.

Fuentes says she removed the Instagram post on June 1 and that she received a call from the head of the Detective Bureau, who said the police commissioner was upset with her.

"I was initially confused, but then I realized they thought I was being anti-cop. I wasn't," Fuentes told the news outlet. "I was just supporting my niece's activism. I had no malicious intent, and I wouldn't put a target on my own back. I'm out there on the streets every day like everyone else."

The photo that Fuentes shared was reportedly from protests that happened after the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis on Memorial Day.

Fuentes said that Police Commissioner Cheryl Clapprood told her she was "getting pressure from the mayor's office" and to "fix" what she did. Fuentes said the police commissioner suggested she post an apology, so Fuentes did.

"The commissioner said: 'You have to find a way to fix this. I'm getting pressure from the mayor's office,' " Fuentes said, according to MassLive. "I said, 'Ok, I'm sorry. How do I fix it?' Officer Gentile suggested I post an apology on the police union Facebook page. So I went home later and I did."

Clapprood has denied that account and also told MassLive that this was not Fuentes's first issue with the department.

Fuentes said she received mixed reactions from her colleagues after posting the apology to her feed. Some said they are afraid to express support against police brutality after what happened to her.

"There's a lot of officers who are afraid to speak up about this issue and don't want to be targeted as well," one officer told MassLive under the condition of anonymity.

According to Boston.com, other officers have been fired for social media posts, including an officer in 2017 who posted a Facebook post in response to the violence during a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 03, 2020, 12:18:11 AM
 :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 03, 2020, 01:16:07 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)
.
Don't forget that everyone even the Premiere League showcased meaningless acts of solidarity. Well worth ignoring the pandemic for a couple of weeks and doing mass gatherings for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 03, 2020, 09:08:22 AM
I know I slag off the UK a bit, but man I'm glad I don't live in a country where firearms aren't prevalent.

That's not to say there aren't serious issues around policing and treatment ethnic minorities/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on July 03, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)

So the choice is between breaking shit and getting heard, and protesting peacefully and not getting heard.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on July 03, 2020, 10:06:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 03, 2020, 01:16:07 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)
.
Don't forget that everyone even the Premiere League showcased meaningless acts of solidarity. Well worth ignoring the pandemic for a couple of weeks and doing mass gatherings for.

I loved the Catalan Parliament passing an unanimous declaration against racism and in favor of the BLM movement, and a few days later the regional police quietly reassigning a group of racist cops that had been separated from the force (they beat up a black suspect while yelling racist shit at him), instead of firing them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 03, 2020, 10:30:02 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 03, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)

So the choice is between breaking shit and getting heard, and protesting peacefully and not getting heard.

Have any violent protests achieved anything between nothing and regime change?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 03, 2020, 08:18:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 03, 2020, 10:30:02 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 03, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)

So the choice is between breaking shit and getting heard, and protesting peacefully and not getting heard.

Have any violent protests achieved anything between nothing and regime change?
Only in the dreams of extremists.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 03, 2020, 08:24:46 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 03, 2020, 10:30:02 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 03, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 02, 2020, 12:32:58 AM
So protests and BLM have largely disappeared from headlines. I assume systemic racism is fixed, then? :)

So the choice is between breaking shit and getting heard, and protesting peacefully and not getting heard.

Have any violent protests achieved anything between nothing and regime change?

Violent and nonviolent protests often happen at the same time.  So it's hard to tell if the violent or the non-violent protests were the ones that influenced change.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 03, 2020, 09:53:16 PM
3 dumbass Colorado police officers fired (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-chief-fires-3-colorado-officers-who-appeared-in-photo-near-memorial-site-for-elijah-mcclain/2020/07/03/cd5a1b86-bd6e-11ea-86d5-3b9b3863273b_story.html)

Some kind of IQ test should be required before hiring...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 03, 2020, 10:08:01 PM
No surprise Jaron is involved.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 03, 2020, 11:02:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 03, 2020, 09:53:16 PM
3 dumbass Colorado police officers fired (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-chief-fires-3-colorado-officers-who-appeared-in-photo-near-memorial-site-for-elijah-mcclain/2020/07/03/cd5a1b86-bd6e-11ea-86d5-3b9b3863273b_story.html)

Some kind of IQ test should be required before hiring...

From the article:

Quote"All of the officers involved were ordered to give interviews on very short notice, without proper preparation, outside of their normal work hours, had their phones confiscated and downloaded, and then were given an abbreviated and defective file review process," the union's statement said.

That's fucking rich. Is the union really complaining that they didn't give the officers enough time to let them get their lies straight? Why do you need proper preparation?

What a weird dystopia the US has become  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on July 04, 2020, 04:02:28 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 03, 2020, 11:02:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 03, 2020, 09:53:16 PM
3 dumbass Colorado police officers fired (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-chief-fires-3-colorado-officers-who-appeared-in-photo-near-memorial-site-for-elijah-mcclain/2020/07/03/cd5a1b86-bd6e-11ea-86d5-3b9b3863273b_story.html)

Some kind of IQ test should be required before hiring...

From the article:

Quote"All of the officers involved were ordered to give interviews on very short notice, without proper preparation, outside of their normal work hours, had their phones confiscated and downloaded, and then were given an abbreviated and defective file review process," the union's statement said.

That's fucking rich. Is the union really complaining that they didn't give the officers enough time to let them get their lies straight? Why do you need proper preparation?

What a weird dystopia the US has become  :(

In the wake of the George Floyd killing it was mentioned in some news pieces about the way that police shielded its members from the consequences of investigations that some of those privileges involved deferring testimony to a time of their choosing, almost assuredly to agree on a common version of the events by all officers involved.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 04, 2020, 09:15:38 AM
Cops union whining about cops being treated the way they treat others:  :moon:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 05, 2020, 12:51:34 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 03, 2020, 11:02:22 PM
That's fucking rich. Is the union really complaining that they didn't give the officers enough time to let them get their lies straight? Why do you need proper preparation?

What a weird dystopia the US has become  :(
you should look at your own country of adoption my friend.  That's standard m.o. for unions.  In any field.  Just look at any case involving racial incident or drunk drivers with Montreal's blue collars' union.

That the positive side of unionism after all, defending workers rights against the corrupt elites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 05, 2020, 06:06:56 AM
The German interior minister has canceled a study about whether there's racial profiling in the German police, explaining that racial profiling is not permitted, and therefore the study is not necessary. He pointed to a few token actions to work against right wing extremism within the police and said that if anyone feels they've been racially profiled by the police they can go and file a complaint with the police.

:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 05, 2020, 09:40:57 AM
I suppose Germans always has had a bit of cognitive dissonance when it comes to apparatus of authority.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on July 06, 2020, 10:58:19 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...

Just like we defeated the Coronavirus.  Now onto the real problem, statue desecration. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 06, 2020, 11:02:37 AM
Quote from: PDH on July 06, 2020, 10:58:19 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...

Just like we defeated the Coronavirus.  Now onto the real problem, statue desecration. 

Here's where we can start.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/06/frederick-douglass-statue-torn-down-rochester-new-york-anniversary-july-4-speech

QuoteFrederick Douglass statue torn down on anniversary of great speech

A statue of the great abolitionist Frederick Douglass was torn from its base in Rochester, New York on Sunday, 168 years to the day since the city was the setting for one of his greatest speeches, What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?

The statue stood in Maplewood Park, a site on the Underground Railroad, the network through which Douglass and Harriet Tubman, both escaped slaves themselves, and others helped ferry people enslaved in southern states to freedom in the north.

One of 13 statues which were placed around Rochester in 2018, the 200th anniversary of Douglass's birth, the monument was found next to a river gorge, about 50ft from its pedestal, police said. The base and a finger were damaged.

Carvin Eison, who worked on the project which brought the statues to the city, told the Democrat & Chronicle newspaper: "It's particularly painful that it happened at this time ... It's really sad because here in Rochester the statue of Frederick Douglass has always been a face of good."

The statue would be replaced, he said.

Since the killing of George Floyd, an African American man, in Minneapolis on 25 May prompted nationwide protests against police brutality and structural racism, statues of Confederate leaders and others with outdated views on race have been targeted for protest, vandalism and removal.

Donald Trump has placed himself at the head of a counter-movement, defending Confederate heritage and, over the Fourth of July weekend, calling for the creation of his own sculpture park, or "National Garden of American Heroes", in defiance of supposed "far-left fascism".

Though the perpetrators of the Rochester removal remain unknown, in a Monday morning tweet, Trump said it showed "these anarchists have no bounds!" and linked to a piece by the far-right Breitbart News.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 06, 2020, 11:03:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...

And all it took was a few hashtags, and some thoughtful rebranding of products. If only we knew earlier!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 06, 2020, 11:21:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 06, 2020, 11:03:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...

And all it took was a few hashtags, and some thoughtful rebranding of products. If only we knew earlier!
:rolleyes: ^ :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 06, 2020, 11:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.
In the US at least the protests are still ongoing - but at the moment they're probably not really that much news (this is why a clever police force just lets things peter out quietly/hopes for rain).

And Trump seems to be having a particularly racially charged morning, even for him:
QuoteStatue of Frederick Douglass Torn Down in Rochester https://breitbart.com/politics/2020/07/05/statue-of-frederick-douglass-torn-down-in-rochester/ via @BreitbartNews
. This shows that these anarchists have no bounds!
Has @BubbaWallace apologized to all of those great NASCAR drivers & officials who came to his aid, stood by his side, & were willing to sacrifice everything for him, only to find out that the whole thing was just another HOAX? That & Flag decision has caused lowest ratings EVER!
New York City and Chicago play the Sanctuary City card, where criminals are protected. Perhaps they will have to start changing their ways (and thinking!).
"This is no longer about peaceful protesting, this is about angry, violent, criminal mobs taking over certain (Democrat run) cities. It is a lack of political leadership in that city." Chad Wolf @DHSgov  @foxandfriends  @NYGovCuomo  @NYCMayor
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 07, 2020, 12:28:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...
Tamas didn't mean it wasn't a real problem, just that media attention seems to have shifted away.

The protests were stupid though.  Not as stupid as declaring the Green Mile one of the 50 most racist movies of all time, but stupid nonetheless when we're battling an epidemic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on July 07, 2020, 12:50:57 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 05, 2020, 06:06:56 AM
The German interior minister has canceled a study about whether there's racial profiling in the German police, explaining that racial profiling is not permitted, and therefore the study is not necessary. He pointed to a few token actions to work against right wing extremism within the police and said that if anyone feels they've been racially profiled by the police they can go and file a complaint with the police.

:hmm:
The minister of justice still wants the study to be conducted though. And she gets support from e.g. at least one police union.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 07, 2020, 02:34:44 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2020, 11:21:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 06, 2020, 11:03:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 06, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 05, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
Plus he might have rightly concluded that the brief fashion craze with BLM has passed.

Yeah, I'm so glad we are done tackling racism...

And all it took was a few hashtags, and some thoughtful rebranding of products. If only we knew earlier!
:rolleyes: ^ :rolleyes:

Viper made me realise I might need to explain what's obvious to me: I was sarcastic about the majority's treatment of a very real issue, not about the issue itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 10, 2020, 03:30:30 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/10/the-guardian-view-on-stop-and-search-police-people-dont-terrorise-them

QuoteThe Guardian view on stop and search: police people, don't terrorise them

Cressida Dick, the commissioner of London's Metropolitan police, appears to be in denial about the extent of institutional racism in the force she leads. The evidence that some of her officers and policies do discriminate is hiding in plain sight. Black people in the capital are four times more likely to be Tasered than their white peers. During the coronavirus lockdown, her officers were more than twice as likely to issue fines to black people as to white people. Perhaps if her force resembled the city it policed, such disparities would shrink. London cannot wait for this to happen. At the current rate of recruitment, the Met will be disproportionately white for a century.

There is a pressing need for reform. Ms Dick said last year that the Met had won the war against racism in the ranks. She has been wilfully blind about the failure of her force to treat black and white people alike. Her apology for the "distress" suffered by two black athletes who were pulled over in their car and handcuffed in a stop and search that turned up nothing but their three-month-old baby in the back seat is no turning point. It was an attempt to deflect mounting criticism for the way stop and search has been applied in the wake of the Black Lives Matter protests. During the coronavirus lockdown, when crime rates fell, stop and search continued for the sake of it. In May alone, one in eight young black males in London were stopped and searched.

The Met's defence is that this group is disproportionately likely to be the perpetrators of violent crime and that the policy is successful in taking dangerous weapons off the streets. Desperation over knife crime in many communities led to more willingness to trust the police. That trust appears not to be repaid. Smartphone footage shows a nurse humiliated; another case revealed a father and son stopped for being black and on a bicycle. Only about a fifth of searches lead to an arrest or sanction. Most of these are for petty drug offences. Police should be apologising to the 80% of people they have inconvenienced and routinely handcuffed during stop and search because their suspicions were unfounded.

Ms Dick's claim that stop and search is an effective tool to fight crime flies in the face of the research. A landmark 2018 study by University College London found no clear evidence that stop and search had a significant effect on violent crime. The policy had fallen out of favour since its use peaked in 2010.

Theresa May's stint as home secretary ushered in a revolution in policing. Mrs May, to her credit, understood the counterproductive nature of the policy and made it more difficult to use. However, a panic over knife crime has seen politicians return to robust policing methods, a theme enthusiastically taken up by the current home secretary, Priti Patel.

There is a place for stop and search, but there must be safeguards applied to this intrusive and coercive policy. Surely knife crime can be driven down without state powers used against swathes of innocent people, disproportionately from the black community with the understandable damage that causes. The section 60 powers, which allow officers to conduct "no-suspicion" stop and searches and have been widened by Mrs Patel, should be repealed.

Ms Dick could do worse than follow the lead of her West Midlands counterpart who apologised last month to the black community for failings in "how we have policed them". Black people in London are three times more likely to be stopped and searched than in Birmingham. This has little to do with crime. It is more about the culture and tradition of the Met, where the police seem to have a fixed idea who the "criminals" are and see it as their job to control them. London's police force appears poorly managed, poorly disciplined and insufficiently accountable to the public it serves. Ms Dick needs to get a grip. Her departure right now would be a substitute for real change rather than a catalyst for it. What communities in the UK's capital need is to be policed without being inflicted with a reign of terror.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 10, 2020, 06:13:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2020, 03:30:30 PM
Perhaps if her force resembled the city it policed, such disparities would shrink. London cannot wait for this to happen. At the current rate of recruitment, the Met will be disproportionately white for a century.

even if police unions were disbanded and white officers fired to make room for people coming from all the diverse ethicities of London, I doubt that would change overnight. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 11, 2020, 02:11:46 AM
Isn't there a difference between overnight and a century?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 11, 2020, 08:20:05 AM
This is an interesting article. I haven't had time to dig into the data, but it strikes me as incredibly helpful in showing how and when and against whom police deadly force takes place.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fatal-encounters-one-man-tracking-every-officer-involved-killing-u-n1233188
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 12, 2020, 10:15:09 AM
A few weeks ago, 700 teens and young adults vandalized the inner city of Stuttgart. By all accounts there were no political motivations behind it - apparently kids being bored during the Covid situation letting off steam. Destruction for the sake of destruction.

200 or so repeated the same yesterday, but the police were quicker to respond this time.

At any rate, the police have announced that they will investigate the suspects/arrested persons intensively, including their political and religious affiliations, gender, and whether or not they're German citizens.

Additionally, and this is causing significant pushback from politicians and public, they want to "research the family trees" of suspects with German passports, wioth many drawing parallels to the "Ariernachweis" where you were could only be a proper German if you had non-Jewish ancestry up to and including your grandparents.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 12, 2020, 10:48:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 02:11:46 AM
Isn't there a difference between overnight and a century?
from what I am seeing, activists expect changes overnight whenever a new measure is put in place.
I also disagree that the more general problem of police brutality, or indifference to 911 calls/call for help from black folks will be magically fixed by having a more diverse police force.
It's not like whites aren't subject to police brutality or unnecessary killings, despite having police forces that are overwhelmingly white.
Re-training is required for actual police officers, new rules&guidelines, a change in how new recruits are formed, less power to the unions, more effective sanctions against problematic officers and avoid that these people become security guards with a gun right after they are booted from their police force.

More patrollers on foot in big cities like London, New York, etc would probably work, smaller units instead of a huge precinct.  Sort of like the military during a campaign, a large base, and a lot of smaller outpost to extend the range.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 12, 2020, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2020, 02:11:46 AM
Isn't there a difference between overnight and a century?
Also, while progress is slow, and only judging from America and Canada, I think black folks have come a long way in a century.  Still far from where we should be, true equality, and I agree another big push is needed, but I disagree it should be looked at strictly through the "race" lense.

A century ago in the US, you could have been lynched just because a white woman though you looked at her in a strange way.  And defending yourself by telling the mob you are gay would not have helped you ;)

This is progress, this is a lot of progress.  We must all work more to achieve equality of treatment by the police, but, frankly, having blacks, asians, indians, etc in the police force by the exact same % of the population is a false solution.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 14, 2020, 10:12:30 AM
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/20/the-invention-of-the-police

QuoteThe Invention of the Police

Why did American policing get so big, so fast? The answer, mainly, is slavery.

By Jill Lepore

To police is to maintain law and order, but the word derives from polis—the Greek for "city," or "polity"—by way of politia, the Latin for "citizenship," and it entered English from the Middle French police, which meant not constables but government. "The police," as a civil force charged with deterring crime, came to the United States from England and is generally associated with monarchy—"keeping the king's peace"—which makes it surprising that, in the antimonarchical United States, it got so big, so fast. The reason is, mainly, slavery.

"Abolish the police," as a rallying cry, dates to 1988 (the year that N.W.A. recorded "Fuck tha Police"), but, long before anyone called for its abolition, someone had to invent the police: the ancient Greek polis had to become the modern police. "To be political, to live in a polis, meant that everything was decided through words and persuasion and not through force and violence," Hannah Arendt wrote in "The Human Condition." In the polis, men argued and debated, as equals, under a rule of law. Outside the polis, in households, men dominated women, children, servants, and slaves, under a rule of force. This division of government sailed down the river of time like a raft, getting battered, but also bigger, collecting sticks and mud. Kings asserted a rule of force over their subjects on the idea that their kingdom was their household. In 1769, William Blackstone, in his "Commentaries on the Laws of England," argued that the king, as "pater-familias of the nation," directs "the public police," exercising the means by which "the individuals of the state, like members of a well-governed family, are bound to conform their general behavior to the rules of propriety, good neighbourhood, and good manners; and to be decent, industrious, and inoffensive in their respective stations." The police are the king's men.

History begins with etymology, but it doesn't end there. The polis is not the police. The American Revolution toppled the power of the king over his people—in America, "the law is king," Thomas Paine wrote—but not the power of a man over his family. The power of the police has its origins in that kind of power. Under the rule of law, people are equals; under the rule of police, as the legal theorist Markus Dubber has written, we are not. We are more like the women, children, servants, and slaves in a household in ancient Greece, the people who were not allowed to be a part of the polis. But for centuries, through struggles for independence, emancipation, enfranchisement, and equal rights, we've been fighting to enter the polis. One way to think about "Abolish the police," then, is as an argument that, now that all of us have finally clawed our way into the polis, the police are obsolete.

But are they? The crisis in policing is the culmination of a thousand other failures—failures of education, social services, public health, gun regulation, criminal justice, and economic development. Police have a lot in common with firefighters, E.M.T.s, and paramedics: they're there to help, often at great sacrifice, and by placing themselves in harm's way. To say that this doesn't always work out, however, does not begin to cover the size of the problem. The killing of George Floyd, in Minneapolis, cannot be wished away as an outlier. In each of the past five years, police in the United States have killed roughly a thousand people. (During each of those same years, about a hundred police officers were killed in the line of duty.) One study suggests that two-thirds of Americans between the ages of fifteen and thirty-four who were treated in emergency rooms suffered from injuries inflicted by police and security guards, about as many people as the number of pedestrians injured by motor vehicles. Urban police forces are nearly always whiter than the communities they patrol. The victims of police brutality are disproportionately Black teen-age boys: children. To say that many good and admirable people are police officers, dedicated and brave public servants, which is, of course, true, is to fail to address both the nature and the scale of the crisis and the legacy of centuries of racial injustice. The best people, with the best of intentions, doing their utmost, cannot fix this system from within.

There are nearly seven hundred thousand police officers in the United States, about two for every thousand people, a rate that is lower than the European average. The difference is guns. Police in Finland fired six bullets in all of 2013; in an encounter on a single day in the year 2015, in Pasco, Washington, three policemen fired seventeen bullets when they shot and killed an unarmed thirty-five-year-old orchard worker from Mexico. Five years ago, when the Guardian counted police killings, it reported that, "in the first 24 days of 2015, police in the US fatally shot more people than police did in England and Wales, combined, over the past 24 years." American police are armed to the teeth, with more than seven billion dollars' worth of surplus military equipment off-loaded by the Pentagon to eight thousand law-enforcement agencies since 1997. At the same time, they face the most heavily armed civilian population in the world: one in three Americans owns a gun, typically more than one. Gun violence undermines civilian life and debases everyone. A study found that, given the ravages of stress, white male police officers in Buffalo have a life expectancy twenty-two years shorter than that of the average American male. The debate about policing also has to do with all the money that's spent paying heavily armed agents of the state to do things that they aren't trained to do and that other institutions would do better. History haunts this debate like a bullet-riddled ghost.

That history begins in England, in the thirteenth century, when maintaining the king's peace became the duty of an officer of the court called a constable, aided by his watchmen: every male adult could be called on to take a turn walking a ward at night and, if trouble came, to raise a hue and cry. This practice lasted for centuries. (A version endures: George Zimmerman, when he shot and killed Trayvon Martin, in 2012, was serving on his neighborhood watch.) The watch didn't work especially well in England—"The average constable is an ignoramus who knows little or nothing of the law," Blackstone wrote—and it didn't work especially well in England's colonies. Rich men paid poor men to take their turns on the watch, which meant that most watchmen were either very elderly or very poor, and very exhausted from working all day. Boston established a watch in 1631. New York tried paying watchmen in 1658. In Philadelphia, in 1705, the governor expressed the view that the militia could make the city safer than the watch, but militias weren't supposed to police the king's subjects; they were supposed to serve the common defense—waging wars against the French, fighting Native peoples who were trying to hold on to their lands, or suppressing slave rebellions.

The government of slavery was not a rule of law. It was a rule of police. In 1661, the English colony of Barbados passed its first slave law; revised in 1688, it decreed that "Negroes and other Slaves" were "wholly unqualified to be governed by the Laws . . . of our Nations," and devised, instead, a special set of rules "for the good Regulating and Ordering of them." Virginia adopted similar measures, known as slave codes, in 1680:

It shall not be lawfull for any negroe or other slave to carry or arme himselfe with any club, staffe, gunn, sword or any other weapon of defence or offence, nor to goe or depart from of his masters ground without a certificate from his master, mistris or overseer, and such permission not to be granted but upon perticuler and necessary occasions; and every negroe or slave soe offending not haveing a certificate as aforesaid shalbe sent to the next constable, who is hereby enjoyned and required to give the said negroe twenty lashes on his bare back well layd on, and soe sent home to his said master, mistris or overseer . . . that if any negroe or other slave shall absent himself from his masters service and lye hid and lurking in obscure places, comitting injuries to the inhabitants, and shall resist any person or persons that shalby any lawfull authority be imployed to apprehend and take the said negroe, that then in case of such resistance, it shalbe lawfull for such person or persons to kill the said negroe or slave soe lying out and resisting.

In eighteenth-century New York, a person held as a slave could not gather in a group of more than three; could not ride a horse; could not hold a funeral at night; could not be out an hour after sunset without a lantern; and could not sell "Indian corn, peaches, or any other fruit" in any street or market in the city. Stop and frisk, stop and whip, shoot to kill.

Then there were the slave patrols. Armed Spanish bands called hermandades had hunted runaways in Cuba beginning in the fifteen-thirties, a practice that was adopted by the English in Barbados a century later. It had a lot in common with England's posse comitatus, a band of stout men that a county sheriff could summon to chase down an escaped criminal. South Carolina, founded by slaveowners from Barbados, authorized its first slave patrol in 1702; Virginia followed in 1726, North Carolina in 1753. Slave patrols married the watch to the militia: serving on patrol was required of all able-bodied men (often, the patrol was mustered from the militia), and patrollers used the hue and cry to call for anyone within hearing distance to join the chase. Neither the watch nor the militia nor the patrols were "police," who were French, and considered despotic. In North America, the French city of New Orleans was distinctive in having la police: armed City Guards, who wore military-style uniforms and received wages, an urban slave patrol.

In 1779, Thomas Jefferson created a chair in "law and police" at the College of William & Mary. The meaning of the word began to change. In 1789, Jeremy Bentham, noting that "police" had recently entered the English language, in something like its modern sense, made this distinction: police keep the peace; justice punishes disorder. ("No justice, no peace!" Black Lives Matter protesters cry in the streets.) Then, in 1797, a London magistrate named Patrick Colquhoun published "A Treatise on the Police of the Metropolis." He, too, distinguished peace kept in the streets from justice administered by the courts: police were responsible for the regulation and correction of behavior and "the prevention and detection of crimes."

It is often said that Britain created the police, and the United States copied it. One could argue that the reverse is true. Colquhoun spent his teens and early twenties in Colonial Virginia, had served as an agent for British cotton manufacturers, and owned shares in sugar plantations in Jamaica. He knew all about slave codes and slave patrols. But nothing came of Colquhoun's ideas about policing until 1829, when Home Secretary Robert Peel—in the wake of a great deal of labor unrest, and after years of suppressing Catholic rebellions in Ireland, in his capacity as Irish Secretary—persuaded Parliament to establish the Metropolitan Police, a force of some three thousand men, headed by two civilian justices (later called "commissioners"), and organized like an army, with each superintendent overseeing four inspectors, sixteen sergeants, and a hundred and sixty-five constables, who wore coats and pants of blue with black top hats, each assigned a numbered badge and a baton. Londoners came to call these men "bobbies," for Bobby Peel.

It is also often said that modern American urban policing began in 1838, when the Massachusetts legislature authorized the hiring of police officers in Boston. This, too, ignores the role of slavery in the history of the police. In 1829, a Black abolitionist in Boston named David Walker published "An Appeal to the Coloured Citizens of the World," calling for violent rebellion: "One good black man can put to death six white men." Walker was found dead within the year, and Boston thereafter had a series of mob attacks against abolitionists, including an attempt to lynch William Lloyd Garrison, the publisher of The Liberator, in 1835. Walker's words terrified Southern slaveowners. The governor of North Carolina wrote to his state's senators, "I beg you will lay this matter before the police of your town and invite their prompt attention to the necessity of arresting the circulation of the book." By "police," he meant slave patrols: in response to Walker's "Appeal," North Carolina formed a statewide "patrol committee."

New York established a police department in 1844; New Orleans and Cincinnati followed in 1852, then, later in the eighteen-fifties, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Baltimore. Population growth, the widening inequality brought about by the Industrial Revolution, and the rise in such crimes as prostitution and burglary all contributed to the emergence of urban policing. So did immigration, especially from Ireland and Germany, and the hostility to immigration: a new party, the Know-Nothings, sought to prevent immigrants from voting, holding office, and becoming citizens. In 1854, Boston disbanded its ancient watch and formally established a police department; that year, Know-Nothings swept the city's elections.

American police differed from their English counterparts: in the U.S., police commissioners, as political appointees, fell under local control, with limited supervision; and law enforcement was decentralized, resulting in a jurisdictional thicket. In 1857, in the Great Police Riot, the New York Municipal Police, run by the mayor's office, fought on the steps of city hall with the New York Metropolitan Police, run by the state. The Metropolitans were known as the New York Mets. That year, an amateur baseball team of the same name was founded.

Also, unlike their British counterparts, American police carried guns, initially their own. In the eighteen-sixties, the Colt Firearms Company began manufacturing a compact revolver called a Pocket Police Model, long before the New York Metropolitan Police began issuing service weapons. American police carried guns because Americans carried guns, including Americans who lived in parts of the country where they hunted for food and defended their livestock from wild animals, Americans who lived in parts of the country that had no police, and Americans who lived in parts of North America that were not in the United States. Outside big cities, law-enforcement officers were scarce. In territories that weren't yet states, there were U.S. marshals and their deputies, officers of the federal courts who could act as de-facto police, but only to enforce federal laws. If a territory became a state, its counties would elect sheriffs. Meanwhile, Americans became vigilantes, especially likely to kill indigenous peoples, and to lynch people of color. Between 1840 and the nineteen-twenties, mobs, vigilantes, and law officers, including the Texas Rangers, lynched some five hundred Mexicans and Mexican-Americans and killed thousands more, not only in Texas but also in territories that became the states of California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico. A San Francisco vigilance committee established in 1851 arrested, tried, and hanged people; it boasted a membership in the thousands. An L.A. vigilance committee targeted and lynched Chinese immigrants.

The U.S. Army operated as a police force, too. After the Civil War, the militia was organized into seven new departments of permanent standing armies: the Department of Dakota, the Department of the Platte, the Department of the Missouri, the Department of Texas, the Department of Arizona, the Department of California, and the Department of the Columbian. In the eighteen-seventies and eighties, the U.S. Army engaged in more than a thousand combat operations against Native peoples. In 1890, at Wounded Knee, South Dakota, following an attempt to disarm a Lakota settlement, a regiment of cavalrymen massacred hundreds of Lakota men, women, and children. Nearly a century later, in 1973, F.B.I. agents, swat teams, and federal troops and state marshals laid siege to Wounded Knee during a protest over police brutality and the failure to properly punish the torture and murder of an Oglala Sioux man named Raymond Yellow Thunder. They fired more than half a million rounds of ammunition and arrested more than a thousand people. Today, according to the C.D.C., Native Americans are more likely to be killed by the police than any other racial or ethnic group.

Modern American policing began in 1909, when August Vollmer became the chief of the police department in Berkeley, California. Vollmer refashioned American police into an American military. He'd served with the Eighth Army Corps in the Philippines in 1898. "For years, ever since Spanish-American War days, I've studied military tactics and used them to good effect in rounding up crooks," he later explained. "After all we're conducting a war, a war against the enemies of society." Who were those enemies? Mobsters, bootleggers, socialist agitators, strikers, union organizers, immigrants, and Black people.

To domestic policing, Vollmer and his peers adapted the kinds of tactics and weapons that had been deployed against Native Americans in the West and against colonized peoples in other parts of the world, including Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines, as the sociologist Julian Go has demonstrated. Vollmer instituted a training model imitated all over the country, by police departments that were often led and staffed by other veterans of the United States wars of conquest and occupation. A "police captain or lieutenant should occupy exactly the same position in the public mind as that of a captain or lieutenant in the United States army," Detroit's commissioner of police said. (Today's police officers are disproportionately veterans of U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, many suffering from post-traumatic stress. The Marshall Project, analyzing data from the Albuquerque police, found that officers who are veterans are more likely than their non-veteran counterparts to be involved in fatal shootings. In general, they are more likely to use force, and more likely to fire their guns.)

Vollmer-era police enforced a new kind of slave code: Jim Crow laws, which had been passed in the South beginning in the late eighteen-seventies and upheld by the Supreme Court in 1896. William G. Austin became Savannah's chief of police in 1907. Earlier, he had earned a Medal of Honor for his service in the U.S. Cavalry at Wounded Knee; he had also fought in the Spanish-American War. By 1916, African-American churches in the city were complaining to Savannah newspapers about the "whole scale arrests of negroes because they are negroes—arrests that would not be made if they were white under similar circumstances." African-Americans also confronted Jim Crow policing in the Northern cities to which they increasingly fled. James Robinson, Philadelphia's chief of police beginning in 1912, had served in the Infantry during the Spanish-American War and the Philippine-American War. He based his force's training on manuals used by the U.S. Army at Leavenworth. Go reports that, in 1911, about eleven per cent of people arrested were African-American; under Robinson, that number rose to 14.6 per cent in 1917. By the nineteen-twenties, a quarter of those arrested were African-Americans, who, at the time, represented just 7.4 per cent of the population.

Progressive Era, Vollmer-style policing criminalized Blackness, as the historian Khalil Gibran Muhammad argued in his 2010 book, "The Condemnation of Blackness: Race, Crime, and the Making of Modern Urban America." Police patrolled Black neighborhoods and arrested Black people disproportionately; prosecutors indicted Black people disproportionately; juries found Black people guilty disproportionately; judges gave Black people disproportionately long sentences; and, then, after all this, social scientists, observing the number of Black people in jail, decided that, as a matter of biology, Black people were disproportionately inclined to criminality.

More recently, between the New Jim Crow and the criminalization of immigration and the imprisonment of immigrants in detention centers, this reality has only grown worse. "By population, by per capita incarceration rates, and by expenditures, the United States exceeds all other nations in how many of its citizens, asylum seekers, and undocumented immigrants are under some form of criminal justice supervision," Muhammad writes in a new preface to his book. "The number of African American and Latinx people in American jails and prisons today exceeds the entire populations of some African, Eastern European, and Caribbean countries."

Policing grew harsher in the Progressive Era, and, with the emergence of state-police forces, the number of police grew, too. With the rise of the automobile, some, like California's, began as "highway patrols." Others, including the state police in Nevada, Colorado, and Oregon, began as the private paramilitaries of industrialists which employed the newest American immigrants: Hungarians, Italians, and Jews. Industrialists in Pennsylvania established the Iron and Coal Police to end strikes and bust unions, including the United Mine Workers; in 1905, three years after an anthracite-coal strike, the Pennsylvania State Police started operations. "One State Policeman should be able to handle one hundred foreigners," its new chief said.

The U.S. Border Patrol began in 1924, the year that Congress restricted immigration from southern Europe. At the insistence of Southern and Western agriculturalists, Congress exempted Mexicans from its new immigration quotas in order to allow migrant workers to enter the United States. The Border Patrol began as a relatively small outfit responsible for enforcing federal immigration law, and stopping smugglers, at all of the nation's borders. In the middle decades of the twentieth century, it grew to a national quasi-military focussed on policing the southern border in campaigns of mass arrest and forced deportation of Mexican immigrants, aided by local police like the notoriously brutal L.A.P.D., as the historian Kelly Lytle Hernández has chronicled. What became the Chicano movement began in Southern California, with Mexican immigrants' protests of the L.A.P.D. during the first half of the twentieth century, even as a growing film industry cranked out features about Klansmen hunting Black people, cowboys killing Indians, and police chasing Mexicans. More recently, you can find an updated version of this story in L.A. Noire, a video game set in 1947 and played from the perspective of a well-armed L.A.P.D. officer, who, driving along Sunset Boulevard, passes the crumbling, abandoned sets from D. W. Griffith's 1916 film "Intolerance," imagined relics of an unforgiving age.

Two kinds of police appeared on mid-century American television. The good guys solved crime on prime-time police procedurals like "Dragnet," starting in 1951, and "Adam-12," beginning in 1968 (both featured the L.A.P.D.). The bad guys shocked America's conscience on the nightly news: Arkansas state troopers barring Black students from entering Little Rock Central High School, in 1957; Birmingham police clubbing and arresting some seven hundred Black children protesting segregation, in 1963; and Alabama state troopers beating voting-rights marchers at Selma, in 1965. These two faces of policing help explain how, in the nineteen-sixties, the more people protested police brutality, the more money governments gave to police departments.

In 1965, President Lyndon Johnson declared a "war on crime," and asked Congress to pass the Law Enforcement Assistance Act, under which the federal government would supply local police with military-grade weapons, weapons that were being used in the war in Vietnam. During riots in Watts that summer, law enforcement killed thirty-one people and arrested more than four thousand; fighting the protesters, the head of the L.A.P.D. said, was "very much like fighting the Viet Cong." Preparing for a Senate vote just days after the uprising ended, the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee said, "For some time, it has been my feeling that the task of law enforcement agencies is really not much different from military forces; namely, to deter crime before it occurs, just as our military objective is deterrence of aggression."

As Elizabeth Hinton reported in "From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime: The Making of Mass Incarceration in America," the "frontline soldiers" in Johnson's war on crime—Vollmer-era policing all over again—spent a disproportionate amount of time patrolling Black neighborhoods and arresting Black people. Policymakers concluded from those differential arrest rates that Black people were prone to criminality, with the result that police spent even more of their time patrolling Black neighborhoods, which led to a still higher arrest rate. "If we wish to rid this country of crime, if we wish to stop hacking at its branches only, we must cut its roots and drain its swampy breeding ground, the slum," Johnson told an audience of police policymakers in 1966. The next year, riots broke out in Newark and Detroit. "We ain't rioting agains' all you whites," one Newark man told a reporter not long before being shot dead by police. "We're riotin' agains' police brutality." In Detroit, police arrested more than seven thousand people.

Johnson's Great Society essentially ended when he asked Congress to pass the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act, which had the effect of diverting money from social programs to policing. This magazine called it "a piece of demagoguery devised out of malevolence and enacted in hysteria." James Baldwin attributed its "irresponsible ferocity" to "some pale, compelling nightmare—an overwhelming collection of private nightmares." The truth was darker, as the sociologist Stuart Schrader chronicled in his 2019 book, "Badges Without Borders: How Global Counterinsurgency Transformed American Policing." During the Cold War, the Office of Public Safety at the U.S.A.I.D. provided assistance to the police in at least fifty-two countries, and training to officers from nearly eighty, for the purpose of counter-insurgency—the suppression of an anticipated revolution, that collection of private nightmares; as the O.P.S. reported, it contributed "the international dimension to the Administration's War on Crime." Counter-insurgency boomeranged, and came back to the United States, as policing.

In 1968, Johnson's new crime bill established the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, within the Department of Justice, which, in the next decade and a half, disbursed federal funds to more than eighty thousand crime-control projects. Even funds intended for social projects—youth employment, for instance, along with other health, education, housing, and welfare programs—were distributed to police operations. With Richard Nixon, any elements of the Great Society that had survived the disastrous end of Johnson's Presidency were drastically cut, with an increased emphasis on policing, and prison-building. More Americans went to prison between 1965 and 1982 than between 1865 and 1964, Hinton reports. Under Ronald Reagan, still more social services were closed, or starved of funding until they died: mental hospitals, health centers, jobs programs, early-childhood education. By 2016, eighteen states were spending more on prisons than on colleges and universities. Activists who today call for defunding the police argue that, for decades, Americans have been defunding not only social services but, in many states, public education itself. The more frayed the social fabric, the more police have been deployed to trim the dangling threads.

The blueprint for law enforcement from Nixon to Reagan came from the Harvard political scientist James Q. Wilson between 1968, in his book "Varieties of Police Behavior," and 1982, in an essay in The Atlantic titled "Broken Windows." On the one hand, Wilson believed that the police should shift from enforcing the law to maintaining order, by patrolling on foot, and doing what came to be called "community policing." (Some of his recommendations were ignored: Wilson called for other professionals to handle what he termed the "service functions" of the police—"first aid, rescuing cats, helping ladies, and the like"—which is a reform people are asking for today.) On the other hand, Wilson called for police to arrest people for petty crimes, on the theory that they contributed to more serious crimes. Wilson's work informed programs like Detroit's stress (Stop the Robberies, Enjoy Safe Streets), begun in 1971, in which Detroit police patrolled the city undercover, in disguises that included everything from a taxi-driver to a "radical college professor," and killed so many young Black men that an organization of Black police officers demanded that the unit be disbanded. The campaign to end stress arguably marked the very beginnings of police abolitionism. stress defended its methods. "We just don't walk up and shoot somebody," one commander said. "We ask him to stop. If he doesn't, we shoot."

For decades, the war on crime was bipartisan, and had substantial support from the Congressional Black Caucus. "Crime is a national-defense problem," Joe Biden said in the Senate, in 1982. "You're in as much jeopardy in the streets as you are from a Soviet missile." Biden and other Democrats in the Senate introduced legislation that resulted in the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984. A decade later, as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Biden helped draft the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, whose provisions included mandatory sentencing. In May, 1991, two months after the Rodney King beating, Biden introduced the Police Officers' Bill of Rights, which provided protections for police under investigation. The N.R.A. first endorsed a Presidential candidate, Reagan, in 1980; the Fraternal Order of Police, the nation's largest police union, first endorsed a Presidential candidate, George H. W. Bush, in 1988. In 1996, it endorsed Bill Clinton.

Partly because of Biden's record of championing law enforcement, the National Association of Police Organizations endorsed the Obama-Biden ticket in 2008 and 2012. In 2014, after police in Ferguson, Missouri, shot Michael Brown, the Obama Administration established a task force on policing in the twenty-first century. Its report argued that police had become warriors when what they really should be is guardians. Most of its recommendations were never implemented.

In 2016, the Fraternal Order of Police endorsed Donald Trump, saying that "our members believe he will make America safe again." Police unions are lining up behind Trump again this year. "We will never abolish our police or our great Second Amendment," Trump said at Mt. Rushmore, on the occasion of the Fourth of July. "We will not be intimidated by bad, evil people."

Trump is not the king; the law is king. The police are not the king's men; they are public servants. And, no matter how desperately Trump would like to make it so, policing really isn't a partisan issue. Out of the stillness of the shutdown, the voices of protest have roared like summer thunder. An overwhelming majority of Americans, of both parties, support major reforms in American policing. And a whole lot of police, defying their unions, also support those reforms.

Those changes won't address plenty of bigger crises, not least because the problem of policing can't be solved without addressing the problem of guns. But this much is clear: the polis has changed, and the police will have to change, too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 15, 2020, 02:45:32 AM
I guess this is the best thread for contiunity:

QuoteThe statue of slave trader Edward Colston was replaced in Bristol on Wednesday morning – with a sculpture of one of the protesters whose anger brought him down.

The figure of Jen Reid, who was photographed standing on the plinth with her fist raised after the 17th century merchant was toppled by Black Lives Matter demonstrators last month, was erected at dawn by a team directed by the artist Marc Quinn.


Arriving in two lorries before 5am, a team of 10 people worked quickly to install the figure of Reid, who said she had been secretly working with Quinn on the idea for weeks. It came as a complete surprise to the authorities, who are yet to announce their plans for the location.

A cardboard placard reading "black lives still matter" was placed at the bottom of the plinth.

Shortly after the vehicles drove away, Reid stood in front of the statue with her fist in the air. "It's just incredible," she said. "That's pretty fucking ballsy, that it is."

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After meticulous planning to ensure the statue could be erected quickly enough to have it in place before officials arrived, the vehicles left the scene about 15 minutes after they got there. "I just knew it was going to happen," said Reid. "They were so efficient."

The lady's sense of self-worth certainly deserves a statue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 15, 2020, 02:57:23 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2020, 10:15:09 AM
A few weeks ago, 700 teens and young adults vandalized the inner city of Stuttgart. By all accounts there were no political motivations behind it - apparently kids being bored during the Covid situation letting off steam. Destruction for the sake of destruction.

200 or so repeated the same yesterday, but the police were quicker to respond this time.

At any rate, the police have announced that they will investigate the suspects/arrested persons intensively, including their political and religious affiliations, gender, and whether or not they're German citizens.

Additionally, and this is causing significant pushback from politicians and public, they want to "research the family trees" of suspects with German passports, wioth many drawing parallels to the "Ariernachweis" where you were could only be a proper German if you had non-Jewish ancestry up to and including your grandparents.

What does a citizen's family tree have to do with the crimes they commit? Bloody hell.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on July 17, 2020, 09:54:48 AM
Meanwhile, in Portland, people are seized off the streets and thrown in unmmarked vans by men who refuse to identify themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 17, 2020, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 15, 2020, 02:57:23 AM
What does a citizen's family tree have to do with the crimes they commit? Bloody hell.

Meanwhile, someone is sending death threats to various left wing politicians and people with immigrant background that contain personal data that have been identified as coming from the police database in Hessen. The letters are signed "NSU 2.0", in reference to the Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund terrorists who killed a number of immigrants in Germany, and a policewoman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 17, 2020, 10:56:34 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on July 17, 2020, 09:54:48 AM
Meanwhile, in Portland, people are seized off the streets and thrown in unmmarked vans by men who refuse to identify themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

<_<

This is not going to end well, and it's, of course, Trump's fucking fault. :contract:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on July 17, 2020, 10:57:39 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 17, 2020, 10:56:34 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on July 17, 2020, 09:54:48 AM
Meanwhile, in Portland, people are seized off the streets and thrown in unmmarked vans by men who refuse to identify themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

<_<

This is not going to end well, and it's, of course, Trump's fucking fault. :contract:

I continue to be amazed that more of these incidents don't lead to violence against the "officers" doing those arrests. The protesters continue to impress me with their restraint.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 17, 2020, 10:59:32 AM
At the end of the day, most people still believe in the rule of law, so attacking police goes against everything they believe in.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 17, 2020, 12:29:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 17, 2020, 10:59:32 AM
At the end of the day, most people still believe in the rule of law, so attacking police goes against everything they believe in.
I think it's more a matter of knowing that your life will be over one way or another if you engage in non-fictional acts of violence against actual police officers.  Even if you don't get killed, your life will probably take a permanent turn for the worse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 17, 2020, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:

But it is not a dysfunctional country because 'Murica can't be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:

For some of us 'Mericans...that might be the most scary thing.  We've often thought of our freedom as part of an American "exceptionalism"...with actions like these being a frightening sign of becoming just "any other country".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 17, 2020, 01:15:46 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:

For some of us 'Mericans...that might be the most scary thing.  We've often thought of our freedom as part of an American "exceptionalism"...with actions like these being a frightening sign of becoming just "any other country".

We became just another country, in my mind, years ago. We have too many people in this country committed to nihilism and hate, including many who are in the law and order profession.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 17, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
We always were another country.  Black people in the South sure didn't feel like they were living in a place where police respected their rights.  The belief that US had special protection against authoritarianism always struck me as a dangerous delusion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 17, 2020, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
We always were another country.  Black people in the South sure didn't feel like they were living in a place where police respected their rights.  The belief that US had special protection against authoritarianism always struck me as a dangerous delusion.

Yes but it was a delusion I had until a few years ago. I miss that delusion.

The weirdest thing I have seen is how liberty has come to be almost completely hijacked by far right authoritarian types. If you see a group called "The Liberty League" or something you know they are weird, and possibily dangerous, maniacs. Where did self-awareness go?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on July 17, 2020, 02:31:04 PM
I feel like we are less free than most places, and have been post the end of the cold war. The third world lacks the resources to impose actual rules, and Europe has a much more live and let live mentality. We come up with rules for everything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 02:45:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 17, 2020, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
We always were another country.  Black people in the South sure didn't feel like they were living in a place where police respected their rights.  The belief that US had special protection against authoritarianism always struck me as a dangerous delusion.

Yes but it was a delusion I had until a few years ago. I miss that delusion.

The weirdest thing I have seen is how liberty has come to be almost completely hijacked by far right authoritarian types. If you see a group called "The Liberty League" or something you know they are weird, and possibily dangerous, maniacs. Where did self-awareness go?

It's not been entirely unpredicted...I ran across a clip on Youtube not long from a speech by Christopher Hitchens (in his more heady, far left-wings days) that I think brings across the sentiment fairly well:  https://youtu.be/g6aKFKIDbQw?t=1280
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 02:55:20 PM
A small, local, and topic-related cultural extract from middle-England that is exciting a kerfuffle involving an unfortunately-named dog:  https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2020/07/petition-uproar-over-dogs-gravestone-at-raf-scampton/

(Note: link contain an image depicting the n-word)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 03:04:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 17, 2020, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
We always were another country.  Black people in the South sure didn't feel like they were living in a place where police respected their rights.  The belief that US had special protection against authoritarianism always struck me as a dangerous delusion.

Yes but it was a delusion I had until a few years ago. I miss that delusion.


Oh, I don't disagree that it is a delusion, and one many of us have had for a long time...and often used by the cynical in power to exploit and use those who had it.  Nevertheless, I tend to think that it is healthy ideal to have, if one honestly believes it as an ideal, and is active in working towards the goal in a constructive way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 17, 2020, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:

For some of us 'Mericans...that might be the most scary thing.  We've often thought of our freedom as part of an American "exceptionalism"...with actions like these being a frightening sign of becoming just "any other country".

Don't you mean worse than a lot of countries instead of any other country? Because that shit doesn't happen in Canada, Japan, France, Germany etc ad nauseam.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 17, 2020, 06:15:13 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 17, 2020, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:

For some of us 'Mericans...that might be the most scary thing.  We've often thought of our freedom as part of an American "exceptionalism"...with actions like these being a frightening sign of becoming just "any other country".

Don't you mean worse than a lot of countries instead of any other country? Because that shit doesn't happen in Canada, Japan, France, Germany etc ad nauseam.

Well not yet. It wasn't long ago that this wasn't happening in America.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 06:34:08 PM
To be fair, I'm sure similar things likely happened in the Prohibition era, and perhaps anytime during J. Edgar Hoover's tenure.

Of course, far worse things were happening in Germany, Japan, and maybe France during those times. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 18, 2020, 12:26:45 AM
Supposedly the federal agents in Portland (who haven't been requested by the city, or have even met the mayor) are operating as part of PACT.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/01/dhs-announces-new-task-force-protect-american-monuments-memorials-and-statues#:~:text=WASHINGTON%E2%80%94%20Today,%20Acting%20Secretary%20of,,%20memorials,%20statues,%20and%20federal

QuoteDHS Announces New Task Force to Protect American Monuments, Memorials, and Statues

WASHINGTON— Today, Acting Secretary of Homeland Security, Chad F. Wolf, announced the establishment of the DHS Protecting American Communities Task Force (PACT), a special task force to coordinate Departmental law enforcement agency assets in protecting our nation's historic monuments, memorials, statues, and federal facilities.

"DHS is answering the President's call to use our law enforcement personnel across the country to protect our historic landmarks," said Acting Secretary Wolf. "We won't stand idly by while violent anarchists and rioters seek not only to vandalize and destroy the symbols of our nation, but to disrupt law and order and sow chaos in our communities."

On June 26th, President Trump issued an Executive Order to ensure that our historic monuments and statues will be protected. The Order, "Protecting American Monuments, Memorials, and Statues and Combating Recent Criminal Activity," directs DHS, within its statutory authority, to provide personnel to assist with the protection of federal monuments, memorials, statues, or property.

As a result, DHS created the PACT, which will conduct ongoing assessments of potential civil unrest or destruction and allocate resources to protect people and property. This may involve potential surge activity to ensure the continuing protection of critical locations. DHS's Office of Operations Coordination will also partner closely with the Departments of Justice and Interior to establish information and intelligence sharing.

"As we approach the July 4th holiday, I have directed the deployment and pre-positioning of Rapid Deployment Teams (RDT) across the country to respond to potential threats to facilities and property," said Acting Secretary Wolf. "While the Department respects every American's right to protest peacefully, violence and civil unrest will not be tolerated."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2020, 12:27:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2020, 06:15:13 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 17, 2020, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 17, 2020, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 17, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
That video is extraordinary. Unbadged, unidentified federal security forces picking people up and apparently arresting them (without reading their rights) - again imagine how the US media would report this in any other country :blink:

For some of us 'Mericans...that might be the most scary thing.  We've often thought of our freedom as part of an American "exceptionalism"...with actions like these being a frightening sign of becoming just "any other country".

Don't you mean worse than a lot of countries instead of any other country? Because that shit doesn't happen in Canada, Japan, France, Germany etc ad nauseam.

Well not yet. It wasn't long ago that this wasn't happening in America.
Can't happen. The Queen would rise and banish all the bad people with a movement of her scepter.  Or something like that.  I've heard numerous times how we are so much better with a monarchy than a Republican system, from Federalists, so it's got to be true.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 18, 2020, 05:57:27 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIGFIcXgAIXd2O?format=jpg&name=large)


https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095516276592641?s=20

QuoteActing Secretary Chad Wolf
@DHS_Wolf
Our men and women in uniform are patriots. We will never surrender to violent extremists on my watch.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIGEC5XoAIrQ9N?format=jpg&name=large)


https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095525122453504?s=20

QuoteActing Secretary Chad Wolf
@DHS_Wolf
Here is what I saw in Portland yesterday.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIGEjjXgAUNgIh?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIGEklXgAAVK8k?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIGEmAXgAAcUSm?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIGEmhWkAMS2Yi?format=jpg&name=small)

Call me crazy, but I feel like this paramilitary nonsense might be a bit exaggerated for some graffiti.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 18, 2020, 06:09:11 AM
Chad? For real?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 18, 2020, 06:15:46 AM
It just reinforces my view that DHS needs to be immolated.

We should be able to mock the Russian camouflage-wearing internal security services* without hypocrisy.  :mad:





*And at least they have the fucking basic courtesy of wearing a camouflage pattern that is distinctly different from the regular military.  Back when I did a stint as a unit deployment manager, I was unable to equip deployers to Afghanistan with as much swag as those guys have.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 18, 2020, 06:33:25 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 18, 2020, 06:15:46 AM
*And at least they have the fucking basic courtesy of wearing a camouflage pattern that is distinctly different from the regular military.  Back when I did a stint as a unit deployment manager, I was unable to equip deployers to Afghanistan with as much swag as those guys have.
Show some respect, they're facing the very real threat of graffiti :o
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 18, 2020, 06:35:49 AM
Wake me when mirrored pics of their backs make me giggle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2020, 08:03:04 AM
Also bonus points for wearing a mask outside bot not inside.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 19, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20

"You follow us, you will get shot!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 19, 2020, 12:37:01 PM
How many parts of the Bill of Rights can we violate at once, the game!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 19, 2020, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20

"You follow us, you will get shot!"

He's a horrible poet and he doesn't even know it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 19, 2020, 01:04:17 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20 (https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20)

"You follow us, you will get shot!"


Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 19, 2020, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20

"You follow us, you will get shot!"

I thought that there was supposed to be a heavy police presence around these protests.  How can the police let these crimes happen right in front of them?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2020, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 19, 2020, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20

"You follow us, you will get shot!"

I thought that there was supposed to be a heavy police presence around these protests.  How can the police let these crimes happen right in front of them?

This is so messed up. Anyone know what happened to the lady they "arrested"?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 19, 2020, 02:03:15 PM
I'm currently re-reading Judge Dredd: The Complete Case Files. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 19, 2020, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2020, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 19, 2020, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
https://twitter.com/JustShay11/status/1284511497184583680?s=20

"You follow us, you will get shot!"

I thought that there was supposed to be a heavy police presence around these protests.  How can the police let these crimes happen right in front of them?

This is so messed up. Anyone know what happened to the lady they "arrested"?

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2020/jun/26/san-diego-police-say-investigation-into-controvers/
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/several-sdpd-officers-under-investigation-after-video-shows-woman-detained-in-unmarked-vehicle/2341885/

QuoteThe woman who was arrested has since been released after she posted bail.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 19, 2020, 02:09:57 PM
Do you mean "baol"?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 19, 2020, 04:15:23 PM
It's Baal you Philistine.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 19, 2020, 04:16:27 PM
The last time I posted Baal, he never wrote back.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on July 19, 2020, 07:14:19 PM
Don't fret you libtards. The gun people will protect the great Republic from this tyranny, I expect that concerned patriots will start patrolling immediately to prevent these government goons from interfering with the constitution and the bill of rights!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 19, 2020, 07:43:18 PM
Quote from: fromtia on July 19, 2020, 07:14:19 PM
Don't fret you libtards. The gun people will protect the great Republic from this tyranny, I expect that concerned patriots will start patrolling immediately to prevent these government goons from interfering with the constitution and the bill of rights!

:lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 20, 2020, 12:42:39 AM
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/507976-federal-agents-deployed-to-portland-did-not-have-training-in-riot

QuoteFederal agents deployed to Portland did not have training in riot control: NYT

The federal agents deployed to Portland, Ore., amid nationwide protests did not have riot and mass crowd control training, according to an internal memo that was circulated at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and obtained by The New York Times.

The memo, compiled for acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf was dated for Thursday just as Wolf traveled to Portland to view firsthand the situation between protesters and federal authorities. The memo reportedly listed federal buildings and the officers deployed to defend them.

In addition, the memo suggested that should federal law enforcement be deployed to other U.S. cities that are experiencing unrest that, "if this type of response is going to be the norm, specialized training and standardized equipment should be deployed to responding agencies."

News of the memo comes as Tensions have escalated between law enforcement and demonstrators since the death of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man who was killed while in Minneapolis police custody in late May. The protests have dominated the Portland area for well over a month, and at times, have led to the damage of federal property.

These actions prompted Wolf to send federal officers to the Rose City to protect the buildings.

President Trump in June signed an executive order for the federal government to protect federal monuments throughout the country, prompting the response in Oregon.

Wolf in a statement Thursday described protesters as a "violent mob," though protests Thursday night were reported to be mainly peaceful.

The presence of the federal officers has been met with significant pushback from Oregon lawmakers.

"I told Acting Secretary Wolf that the federal government should remove all federal officers from our streets," Oregon Gov. Kate Brown (D) tweeted Thursday. "His response showed me he is on a mission to provoke confrontation for political purposes. He is putting both Oregonians and local law enforcement officers in harm's way."

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler (D) tweeted about the situation on Tuesday, saying that he informed Wolf that "we do not need or want" assistance from federal officers.

The news also comes as reports of unidentifiable, camouflaged federal officers picking up and detaining protesters in unmarked vans have drawn ire from the state's congressional lawmakers.

Oregon Sens. Jeff Merkley (D) and Ron Wyden (D) and Reps. Earl Blumenauer (D) and Suzanne Bonamici (D) asked Friday for the events to be thoroughly reviewed by DHS.

"DHS and DOJ are engaged in acts that are horrific and outrageous in our constitutional democratic republic," Merkley said.

"First, they are deploying paramilitary forces with no identification indicating who they are or who they work for. Second, these agents are snatching people off the street with no underlying justification. Both of these acts are profound offenses against Americans," he said.

He added: "We demand not only that these acts end, but also that they remove their forces immediately from our state. Given the egregious nature of the violations against Oregonians, we are demanding full investigations by the Inspectors General of these departments."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2020, 02:38:17 AM
They don't really care about that.  They just want thugs that can be relied upon to be brutal on command.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2020, 02:43:32 AM
Video of tonight's protests in Portland.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Maccabray/status/1285073303766368258
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 02:49:15 AM
Not the most professional riot control for sure:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1284726088187310080
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zanza on July 20, 2020, 02:49:36 AM
Surely these states rights or anti-federal militias will now stand up and protect the peaceful civilians protesting from federal overreach. Right?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2020, 02:54:02 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 18, 2020, 12:26:45 AM
Supposedly the federal agents in Portland (who haven't been requested by the city, or have even met the mayor) are operating as part of PACT.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/01/dhs-announces-new-task-force-protect-american-monuments-memorials-and-statues#:~:text=WASHINGTON%E2%80%94%20Today,%20Acting%20Secretary%20of,,%20memorials,%20statues,%20and%20federal

QuoteDHS Announces New Task Force to Protect American Monuments, Memorials, and Statues

WASHINGTON— Today, Acting Secretary of Homeland Security, Chad F. Wolf, announced the establishment of the DHS rated."

:bleeding:
Bloody hell. And the sad thing is people will swallow this straight.
Ignorant hicks who never left Cousinfuck, Nowhere, actually believe there's gangs of dangerous anarchist communists roaming the streets attacking merca
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 02:58:41 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 20, 2020, 02:49:36 AM
Surely these states rights or anti-federal militias will now stand up and protect the peaceful civilians protesting from federal overreach. Right?

If Trump wins a second term, by this time next year the GOP will be loudly demanding more federal control of everything, while on CNN serious talking heads will be analysing the pros and cons of California seceding from the Union.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 20, 2020, 03:47:26 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 20, 2020, 02:49:36 AM
Surely these states rights or anti-federal militias will now stand up and protect the peaceful civilians protesting from federal overreach. Right?

I think most of them are ok with government tyranny if it oppresses "the right people"(TM).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 04:06:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2020, 03:47:26 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 20, 2020, 02:49:36 AM
Surely these states rights or anti-federal militias will now stand up and protect the peaceful civilians protesting from federal overreach. Right?

I think most of them are ok with government tyranny if it oppresses "the right people"(TM).
Fair. I imagine they're mainly disappointed the FEMA camps are still underutilised :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2020, 04:10:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 02:49:15 AM
Not the most professional riot control for sure:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1284726088187310080
That manlet is laying into that navy vet full throttle and the vet didn't even budge, despite getting his hand broken.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2020, 04:53:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 02:58:41 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 20, 2020, 02:49:36 AM
Surely these states rights or anti-federal militias will now stand up and protect the peaceful civilians protesting from federal overreach. Right?

If Trump wins a second term, by this time next year the GOP will be loudly demanding more federal control of everything, while on CNN serious talking heads will be analysing the pros and cons of California seceding from the Union.

Given how things have went in the past few months it really does seem feasible he could throw off all pretense and go full putin.
And oh how will his supporters cheer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
Seems to me if protesters stay away from federal buildings this issue goes away.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2020, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
Seems to me if protesters stay away from federal buildings this issue goes away.

Well the Feds gave them something to protest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on July 20, 2020, 11:13:32 AM
And if those Blacks didn't get so uppity we wouldn't have to turn the dogs loose on them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
Seems to me if protesters stay away from federal buildings this issue goes away.
But as I say this type of protest seems classic Gandhi/MLK approach - the purpose is to provoke a response.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:17:29 AM
But as I say this type of protest seems classic Gandhi/MLK approach - the purpose is to provoke a response.

I don't know the particulars, but I've read about "damage to federal property."  I'm guessing some spray painting, but that's just a guess.  That's not just provoking a response, that's breaking a law, a law that most people in this country probably think is a good and just law that needs no changing.  That's not what Gandhi and MLK did.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 20, 2020, 11:34:19 AM
Most people think "big fucking deal" about spray painting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
I don't know the particulars, but I've read about "damage to federal property."  I'm guessing some spray painting, but that's just a guess.  That's not just provoking a response, that's breaking a law, a law that most people in this country probably think is a good and just law that needs no changing.  That's not what Gandhi and MLK did.
Okay. But you were talking about staying away from Federal property not damaging Federal property.

Anyway isn't the "damage to federal property" just the excuse the administration has used to deploy the Federal Protective Service (backed up by ICE, CBP, TSA etc) against protesters? Because if there's no damage or risk to the property, you don't need to deploy the Federal Protective Service - especially because it creates federal jurisdiction. Though I note the Acting DHS Secretary has said today "I don't need invitations by the state, state mayors or state governors to do our job. We're going to do that whether they like us there or not."

And, you know, Trump today has said Portland is worse than Afghanistan and his people are doing a great job on the streets "they grab em, a lot of people in jail". So I'm not entirely convinced this police crackdown is entirely motivated by a desire to prevent graffiti (and, even if it was, is the response proportionate).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 20, 2020, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
I don't know the particulars, but I've read about "damage to federal property."  I'm guessing some spray painting, but that's just a guess.  That's not just provoking a response, that's breaking a law, a law that most people in this country probably think is a good and just law that needs no changing.  That's not what Gandhi and MLK did.

Do you think militarized police forces disappearing people in unmarked vehicles is a proportionate response to spray paint on federal buildings?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
Okay. But you were talking about staying away from Federal property not damaging Federal property.

Anyway isn't the "damage to federal property" just the excuse the administration has used to deploy the Federal Protective Service (backed up by ICE, CBP, TSA etc) against protesters? Because if there's no damage or risk to the property, you don't need to deploy the Federal Protective Service - especially because it creates federal jurisdiction. Though I note the Acting DHS Secretary has said today "I don't need invitations by the state, state mayors or state governors to do our job. We're going to do that whether they like us there or not."

And, you know, Trump today has said Portland is worse than Afghanistan and his people are doing a great job on the streets "they grab em, a lot of people in jail". So I'm not entirely convinced this police crackdown is entirely motivated by a desire to prevent graffiti (and, even if it was, is the response proportionate).

You're right to the first.  Should be don't damage, not stay away.

As to the second, what difference does it make if it's just an excuse or not? Or rather I should say that's the narrative we'd prefer to focus on.  But the actual principle at stake is whether protesters in a virtuous cause should be able to damage federal property without repercussion.  The damage to federal property creates the legal and moral justification for action.  It's what starts to turn centrists like myself away from the virtuous protesters in a virtuous cause/evil Trump and his jack booted thugs narrative toward something more morally gray.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
It seems like we should expect more from our paid servants of the state than we should a large disorganized mob.

Their extra-legal application of force towards non-violent people is about a billion times worse than some spray painting. Yes anybody caught spray painting federal property should be appropriately punished according to the law, not whatever bizarre methods we are seeing on display in Portland..

I don't think randos should be held to a higher standard than trained professionals earning a living a living at tax payer expense.

A few randos spray painting something does not mean we can just toss out the Constitution and start dishing out extra-legal violence to whomever.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:05:11 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2020, 11:53:42 AM
Do you think militarized police forces disappearing people in unmarked vehicles is a proportionate response to spray paint on federal buildings?

Most of those things are emotional triggers that I guess just don't get to me too much.  Law enforcement in riot gear with bullet proof vests are going to appear "militarized."  I'm not going to demand that cops respond to large crowds that often use violence in tshirts and bike shorts.  "Disappearing people in unmarked vehicles" is supposed to evoke South American dictatorship's dirty war against communism.  If the people arrested in Portland are truly being held incommunicado, that's when I'll start to worry.  If the question is whether arresting a spray painter is proportionate, I'd say yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2020, 12:09:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:05:11 PM
If the question is whether arresting a spray painter is proportionate, I'd say yes.

Depends on how it is done and if it is following the proper legal procedures. It is almost like we have rules about what is proportionate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on July 20, 2020, 12:14:33 PM
There is not crowd using violence. There is no arrest of people committing the horrible crime of spray painting a federal office.  These are people seized walking in the streets by men mobilized through an extraordinary process to give a hard on to authoritarians.

If you are waiting for the magic day when the American government turns on full turbo fascist to get worried, you'll never see it. It's not how it happens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2020, 12:09:52 PM
Depends on how it is done and if it is following the proper legal procedures. It is almost like we have rules about what is proportionate.

We have rules about things like excessive use of force, which AFAIK is not at issue in Portland.  I 'm not aware of any rules about marking law enforcement vehicles.  And of course we have rules about appearing before a judge, bail hearings, contacting lawyers, etc., etc.  If any of those are broken then it's a big fucking deal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:54:46 AM
As to the second, what difference does it make if it's just an excuse or not? Or rather I should say that's the narrative we'd prefer to focus on.  But the actual principle at stake is whether protesters in a virtuous cause should be able to damage federal property without repercussion.  The damage to federal property creates the legal and moral justification for action.  It's what starts to turn centrists like myself away from the virtuous protesters in a virtuous cause/evil Trump and his jack booted thugs narrative toward something more morally gray.
For a  start I don't really think in terms of virtue - I think it's a weird route to go down and you're conflating two points: protesters in a virtuous cause and protesters behaving virtuously. They're different. Do I particularly care about spray-painting?

Even if there is damage to federal property. And that becomes a "moral justification" for action, not all actions are equal. For me the more important issue to an extent on both sides is around proportionality.To me unbadged, unidentified federal law enforcement plucking people off the streets despite not being invited by the states is not proportionate to spray-painting. In addition I think it is, in itself, potentially corrosive and dangerous to normal principles of law enforcement in a democracy - it's not normal behaviour that you don't know who is arresting people on the streets or even what they're being arrested for. And I say this is assuming those arrests are for damage to federal property, I've not seen any evidence of that yet. To me it looks like an excuse to deploy those forces who are then just roaming the streets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 12:16:20 PM
For a  start I don't really think in terms of virtue - I think it's a weird route to go down and you're conflating two points: protesters in a virtuous cause and protesters behaving virtuously. They're different. Do I particularly care about spray-painting?

Even if there is damage to federal property. And that becomes a "moral justification" for action, not all actions are equal. For me the more important issue to an extent on both sides is around proportionality.To me unbadged, unidentified federal law enforcement plucking people off the streets despite not being invited by the states is not proportionate to spray-painting. In addition I think it is, in itself, potentially corrosive and dangerous to normal principles of law enforcement in a democracy - it's not normal behaviour that you don't know who is arresting people on the streets or even what they're being arrested for. And I say this is assuming those arrests are for damage to federal property, I've not seen any evidence of that yet. To me it looks like an excuse to deploy those forces who are then just roaming the streets.

When I go to the trouble of typing out "virtuous protesters in a virtuous cause" it's the exact opposite of conflating the two.

You don't particularly care about spray painting.  Others don't particularly care about burning cop cars or police stations, some don't particularly care about throwing rocks or frozen water at cops, some don't particularly care about shooting cops.  Who's right?

I addressed the unmarked car stuff in my response to Syt.

I don't have any direct evidence of damage to federal property either.  Shall we make it a simple empirical question of damage/no damage?  My stance would change significantly if there were no damage (or the imminent threat of damage).  Would your stance change?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on July 20, 2020, 12:31:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
Seems to me if protesters stay away from federal buildings this issue goes away.

I think you are deliberately masquerading as a kind of pantomime Yi at this point. "Unidentified military types bundling people into unmarked cars? - Seems to me this is all normal and above board" .No doubt if things get Pinochet-Helicopter you will still be "seems to me..."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on July 20, 2020, 12:36:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 19, 2020, 02:03:15 PM
I'm currently re-reading Judge Dredd: The Complete Case Files. :)

:hug:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 12:46:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:29:35 PM
I don't have any direct evidence of damage to federal property either.  Shall we make it a simple empirical question of damage/no damage?  My stance would change significantly if there were no damage (or the imminent threat of damage).  Would your stance change?
And my point is I've not seen any indication that these federal forces are identifying the people responsible for criminal damage. That's why I think it's just an excuse - because from what I've seen it looks like they are just "policing the streets" (which isn't their job) and the people arrested seem pretty random.

But even if they were identifying the spray painters, no - none of the three videos of policing in Portland seem remotely proportionate to criminal damage, I also don't think criminal damage is anywhere near sufficient to send in federal police if you weren't requested by the state.

QuoteWhen I go to the trouble of typing out "virtuous protesters in a virtuous cause" it's the exact opposite of conflating the two.
So why do the lack of virtuous people make the cause morally grey? Surely it's virtuous or it's not (though I hate that language).

QuoteYou don't particularly care about spray painting.  Others don't particularly care about burning cop cars or police stations, some don't particularly care about throwing rocks or frozen water at cops, some don't particularly care about shooting cops.  Who's right?
Yeah. But we can set pretty objective reasons why spray painting is different than arson is different than trying to kill someone. Whereas your point seems to be if there is a moral and legal justification for action by law enforcement then anything goes and actually arresting a terrorist and a spray painter is basically the same thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:48:23 PM
Quote from: fromtia on July 20, 2020, 12:31:55 PM
.No doubt if things get Pinochet-Helicopter you will still be "seems to me..."

I specifically said the exact opposite just a while ago, so I guess you're calling me a liar.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:57:01 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 12:46:30 PM
So why do the lack of virtuous people make the cause morally grey? Surely it's virtuous or it's not (though I hate that language).

Did I say it renders the cause morally gray?  That's not what I meant.  I meant it renders this situation (jack booted Trumpist thugs bundling Portland hipsters into minivans) morally gray.

The cause, defined as law enforcement should not unduly kill black people, remains exactly the same.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 01:07:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
Seems to me if protesters stay away from federal buildings this issue goes away.
But as I say this type of protest seems classic Gandhi/MLK approach - the purpose is to provoke a response.

TBF that "follow us and you get shot" incident was following the arrested lady trying to hit an officer on a motorbike with her protest sign, allegedly. That doesn't make the whole episode ok, but if true that's not exactly a Gandhi approach either.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 01:10:32 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 01:07:05 PM
TBF that "follow us and you get shot" incident was following the arrested lady trying to hit an officer on a motorbike with her protest sign, allegedly. That doesn't make the whole episode ok, but if true that's not exactly a Gandhi approach either.
My point on that is if the state are saying don't come near Federal buildings, the response isn't to stay away from Federal buildings. You protest at Federal buildings exactly to provoke a response.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
Seems to me if protesters stay away from federal buildings this issue goes away.

Except that a number of the "kidnappings" were miles away from Federal buildings. (Across the river and north, if you'd like exactness.)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 01:44:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:17:29 AM
But as I say this type of protest seems classic Gandhi/MLK approach - the purpose is to provoke a response.

I don't know the particulars, but I've read about "damage to federal property."  I'm guessing some spray painting, but that's just a guess.  That's not just provoking a response, that's breaking a law, a law that most people in this country probably think is a good and just law that needs no changing.  That's not what Gandhi and MLK did.

The particulars of damage to federal property in Portland - I've gone down and seen it myself and several friends have also done so and posted pictures - were spray painting on two (city) statues and one federal building. The building is now completely surrounded by 10'-high fencing and inaccessible to the public. (The fencing was up a month before the feds showed up in the city.)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 01:49:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:29:35 PM
I don't have any direct evidence of damage to federal property either.  Shall we make it a simple empirical question of damage/no damage?  My stance would change significantly if there were no damage (or the imminent threat of damage).  Would your stance change?

The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 01:49:58 PM
The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?

So the spray painting you mentioned happened over six weeks ago?  If so, and the fence can't be breached, then yes, my stance changes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2020, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 20, 2020, 01:07:05 PM
TBF that "follow us and you get shot" incident was following the arrested lady trying to hit an officer on a motorbike with her protest sign, allegedly. That doesn't make the whole episode ok, but if true that's not exactly a Gandhi approach either.

If you want to hit someone with a sign, you are going to do it.  If you just step off the curb to make the cop on the motorcycle see your sign, then maybe it might look to some cops looking to add to their arrest total like she was trying to hit the cop, but they didn't investigate.  They went from zero to total gestapo in a heartbeat.  They followed none of the protocols for arrest, as well.  Plus, of course, the murder threat (minimum sentence two years in jail because the perp was carrying a gun).

These were San Diego police, not Feds, if that makes a difference to the argument.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 01:49:58 PM
The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?

So the spray painting you mentioned happened over six weeks ago?  If so, and the fence can't be breached, then yes, my stance changes.

That is correct.

There is no risk to any federal property of any kind in Portland at this time, and wasn't when the feds showed up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 20, 2020, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: fromtia on July 20, 2020, 12:36:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 19, 2020, 02:03:15 PM
I'm currently re-reading Judge Dredd: The Complete Case Files. :)

:hug:

Last time it was escapism, but now it's just to keep up with current affairs. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 20, 2020, 02:40:12 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 20, 2020, 02:16:50 PM
If you want to hit someone with a sign, you are going to do it. 

Unless you're blocked or dodged or just miss. Or they're on the other side of a computer screen.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 03:33:40 PM
And now they go to Chicago. No, this isn't frightening at all. :mellow:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-chicago-police-dhs-deployment-20200720-dftu5ychwbcxtg4ltarh5qnwma-story.html

QuoteThe U.S. Department of Homeland Security is crafting plans to deploy about 150 federal agents to Chicago this week, the Chicago Tribune has learned, a move that would come amid growing controversy nationally about federal force being used in American cities.

The Homeland Security Investigations, or HSI, agents are set to assist other federal law enforcement and Chicago police in crime-fighting efforts, according to sources familiar with the matter, though a specific plan on what the agents will be doing had not been made public.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 20, 2020, 03:54:58 PM
So on the "Crazy shit that will happen in 2020" board who put money on "Secret Police".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 04:00:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 20, 2020, 03:54:58 PM
So on the "Crazy shit that will happen in 2020" board who put money on "Secret Police".

I had "civil war" so I think I'm closer to that one anyway. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2020, 04:03:56 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 20, 2020, 02:40:12 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 20, 2020, 02:16:50 PM
If you want to hit someone with a sign, you are going to do it. 

Unless you're blocked or dodged or just miss. Or they're on the other side of a computer screen.  :P

Well, apparently the motorcycle cop didn't think he was threatened, because he didn't stop.  I think we can rule out blocking or dodging, and if it was a clean miss it is going to be hard to prove in court that it was even intended.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on July 20, 2020, 04:45:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:48:23 PM

I specifically said the exact opposite just a while ago, so I guess you're calling me a liar.

Stop your flailing. You know I'm not calling you a liar, I'm implying that you are holding a ridiculous position, one so comic it must be a sly satire of sorts in your reflexive defense of these exciting new secret police Trump has deployed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2020, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 20, 2020, 11:17:29 AM
But as I say this type of protest seems classic Gandhi/MLK approach - the purpose is to provoke a response.

I don't know the particulars, but I've read about "damage to federal property."  I'm guessing some spray painting, but that's just a guess.  That's not just provoking a response, that's breaking a law, a law that most people in this country probably think is a good and just law that needs no changing.  That's not what Gandhi and MLK did.

Gandhi and I'm pretty sure MLK broke laws too.
The salt march is a famous one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 05:15:22 PM
I'm just failing to see how anyone can be okay with what's happening in the US re: federal law enforcement refusing to listen to/ignoring state guidance on how to treat their citizens. So far it's Portland. Chicago later this week. Where to next? It sure as hell won't be Houston or Jacksonville. He needs those states.

This is not okay. This is what fascism looks and feels like.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 05:34:32 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/07/20/trump-says-cuomo-must-end-nyc-crime-wave-or-he-will-step-in/

And now NYC.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 20, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 05:15:22 PM
I'm just failing to see how anyone can be okay with what's happening in the US re: federal law enforcement refusing to listen to/ignoring state guidance on how to treat their citizens. So far it's Portland. Chicago later this week. Where to next? It sure as hell won't be Houston or Jacksonville. He needs those states.

This is not okay. This is what fascism looks and feels like.

I certainly would not belittle your underlying sentiment (in fact, I agree with it)...but I think it is also import to make it clear that this about the those issues that brought this present federal/local confrontation about.  The comparison won't seem fair, but the bolded bit, in isolation, could easily have been used by segregationists themselves in Little Rock circa 1957...and they likewise would have called it fascism.

But still, you're not wrong.  Use of federal authority had its time and place in enforcing justice and freedom.  Perhaps this time it is something state and local authorities need to assert...and it just that America has turned upside down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2020, 05:51:26 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 05:15:22 PM
I'm just failing to see how anyone can be okay with what's happening in the US re: federal law enforcement refusing to listen to/ignoring state guidance on how to treat their citizens. So far it's Portland. Chicago later this week. Where to next? It sure as hell won't be Houston or Jacksonville. He needs those states.

This is not okay. This is what fascism looks and feels like.
That's fascist supporters for you though. They're totally OK with any rule breaking it as long as its turned against the "right people".

I do wonder on similar crappy treatment in the Texas cities...might that not build support for him there? Giving those city hipsters whats coming, protecting the state, etc....
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 06:04:46 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 20, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 05:15:22 PM
I'm just failing to see how anyone can be okay with what's happening in the US re: federal law enforcement refusing to listen to/ignoring state guidance on how to treat their citizens. So far it's Portland. Chicago later this week. Where to next? It sure as hell won't be Houston or Jacksonville. He needs those states.

This is not okay. This is what fascism looks and feels like.

I certainly would not belittle your underlying sentiment (in fact, I agree with it)...but I think it is also import to make it clear that this about the those issues that brought this present federal/local confrontation about.  The comparison won't seem fair, but the bolded bit, in isolation, could easily have been used by segregationists themselves in Little Rock circa 1957...and they likewise would have called it fascism.

But still, you're not wrong.  Use of federal authority had its time and place in enforcing justice and freedom.  Perhaps this time it is something state and local authorities need to assert...and it just that America has turned upside down.

The comparison isn't lost on me, and in fact came to mind even as I typed that.

But in Selma, no one was maced, beaten, or thrown into an unmarked vehicle with unmarked officers and kept for hours without anyone reading their rights.

I'd argue that that's the biggest difference.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: fromtia on July 20, 2020, 04:45:52 PM
Stop your flailing. You know I'm not calling you a liar, I'm implying that you are holding a ridiculous position, one so comic it must be a sly satire of sorts in your reflexive defense of these exciting new secret police Trump has deployed.

Stop telling me I'll do something I just said I wouldn't and I'll stop flailing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2020, 08:28:18 PM
Not sure I'd trust Philly police to comply. State police or national guard might be needed

https://mobile.twitter.com/Will_Bunch/status/1285317860299071494

Quote
Philly DA Larry Krasner, in statement on Trump possibly sending federal law-enforcement here, said his dad and uncles fought fascism in WWII. "Anyone, including federal law enforcement, who unlawfully assaults and kidnaps people will face criminal charges from my office," he says
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 20, 2020, 08:34:24 PM
The last thing we need is National Guard battling DHS.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2020, 09:47:34 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 01:49:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 20, 2020, 12:29:35 PM
I don't have any direct evidence of damage to federal property either.  Shall we make it a simple empirical question of damage/no damage?  My stance would change significantly if there were no damage (or the imminent threat of damage).  Would your stance change?

The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?

A quick Google says that there are at least five federal buildings in downtown Portland:

Edith Green-Wendell Wyatt Federal Building
Gus J. Solomon United States Courthouse
Mark O. Hatfield United States Courthouse
National Water and Climate Center
Pioneer Courthouse

Which of these is the "one Federal building" you thought was there?  Clearly, the courthouses are not protected by the fencing you mention, because one of them was attacked last night (though only to the extent that the protesters symbolically blocked the doors with fencing).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 20, 2020, 10:33:24 PM
I only knew of the Hatfield Building. It's the one that was fenced off. I thought the Pioneer was a state building.

The Wyatt is far from the protests. The Soloman has been untouched. Can't find the National Water and Climate Center. No idea what that is.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on July 21, 2020, 03:04:53 AM
QuoteSpeaking to reporters at the White House on Monday, Trump identified New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore and Oakland as places in need of federal agents, describing those cities' mayors as "liberal Democrats".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 21, 2020, 03:36:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 21, 2020, 03:04:53 AM
QuoteSpeaking to reporters at the White House on Monday, Trump identified New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore and Oakland as places in need of federal agents, describing those cities' mayors as "liberal Democrats".
Yeah. He's going to send these forces to cities with Democratic mayors and Democratic governors, because he doesn't really care about protecting federal property. He just wants to gee-up the situation so he can run on "law and order".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on July 21, 2020, 04:34:51 AM
Also, Fox News has just found out that race riots are good for the economy. Keep America Great!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZyRLI9UMAA036r?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 21, 2020, 04:52:12 AM
Surely that's fake.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 21, 2020, 04:54:06 AM
No. It's a little old though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hgbg7If4Xo
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on July 21, 2020, 04:55:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 21, 2020, 04:52:12 AM
Surely that's fake.

I found the original clip online. It's legit but a month old.

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1269051241306263553

EDIT: Sheilbh'd
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 21, 2020, 07:54:18 PM
On the staunch defenders of federal property, the acting DHS Secretary: "Because we don't have that local support, that local law enforcement support, we are having to go out and proactively arrest individuals, and we need to do that because we need to hold them accountable." :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on July 21, 2020, 07:59:20 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 21, 2020, 07:54:18 PM
On the staunch defenders of federal property, the acting DHS Secretary: "Because we don't have that local support, that local law enforcement support, we are having to go out and proactively arrest individuals, and we need to do that because we need to hold them accountable." :mellow:

In other news, Trump still walks free.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2020, 12:14:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 21, 2020, 03:36:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 21, 2020, 03:04:53 AM
QuoteSpeaking to reporters at the White House on Monday, Trump identified New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore and Oakland as places in need of federal agents, describing those cities' mayors as "liberal Democrats".
Yeah. He's going to send these forces to cities with Democratic mayors and Democratic governors, because he doesn't really care about protecting federal property. He just wants to gee-up the situation so he can run on "law and order".

Unleashing the Freikorps to punish the reds, what could go wrong?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2020, 12:56:47 AM
The ACLU obtained a federal court order restraining the Portland police department from arresting or threatening to arrest journalists or legal observers.  DHS then responded by "surging" into Portland as they are not covered by the order.  The ACLU is now moving to apply the TRO to the Feds; hearing to be held Thursday, July 23.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 22, 2020, 01:24:09 AM
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/doughnut-taunt-leads-to-jail-at-pro-police-rally-in-everett/

QuoteMan arrested in Everett after taunting police with doughnut

The 18-year-old is accused of fourth-degree assault. Video shows he didn't touch anyone.

EVERETT — Videos from a pro-police rally Friday night shared on social media show an 18-year-old man being arrested after he taunted people, including sheriff's deputies, by dangling a doughnut hanging from a stick in front of them.

He was booked into the Snohomish County Jail for investigation of fourth-degree assault and released the next day after making bail of $1,000.

The young man, from Duvall, had been a more daring counter-protester of the "Back the Blue" rally on Friday, which had been organized by the Snohomish County Republican Party. Featured speakers were candidates for state office, a local Young Republican and Sheriff Adam Fortney. Deputies estimated more than 300 people were in an attendance.

While most of the counter-protesters kept their distance and stayed on the other side of the street, the man was visible in the middle of the rally, holding up a skateboard with "BLM" and "ACAB" (which stands for All Cops Are [expletive]) written on it, and yelling "Black Lives Matter" as the crowd chanted "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter."

Caution: This video contains potentially offensive language.

Around 8:20 p.m. on Friday, the man approached a group that included sheriff's deputies and marshals assigned to patrol the courthouse campus, one of whom was a lieutenant wearing plain clothes. The suspect reportedly shoved the stick toward the plain-clothes deputy, and marshal James Simoneschi pushed him away before arresting him, according to a police report obtained by The Daily Herald on Monday through a public records request. In court papers, the suspect was listed as 5-foot-5 and weighing 120 pounds.

There were no reports or video evidence reviewed by The Daily Herald that the man touched anyone during the rally.

Olushola Bolonduro, 26, one of the organizers of the counter-protest, said he witnessed the encounter with the doughnut, which took place after the rally ended and after most people had dispersed. From his perspective, the man didn't do anything to deserve being jailed.

"I thought, 'Oh, it's just a kid pulling a prank,'" Bolonduro said. He said he would understand if the deputies were annoyed, or if they gave him a warning, but arresting him seemed petty.

A teenage girl who took part in the counter-protest recorded the encounter on video. The footage starts with the man skateboarding toward a group of people who remained gathered after the "Back the Blue" rally had ended, holding a stick with a doughnut dangling from a string.

"I wanted to know if any of you guys wanted a bite?" he asks two Snohomish County sheriff's marshals in the video, as he waved the doughnut at them.

A younger looking man jokes he already had "like 10 doughnuts" earlier in the day.

The man holds the doughnut up higher in the air, in front of the plain-clothes lieutenant.

"Hey, any of you bootlickers want this?" the man says, louder.

The sheriff's lieutenant immediately becomes upset.

"Get that (expletive) away from my face or I will whoop your (expletive)," he says. "Get the (expletive) away from me."

Simoneschi then shoves the man from behind. "Get your (expletive) out of here, man," he says.

Meanwhile, the girl is still recording. Simoneschi arrests the teenage man. The girl asks why he's getting arrested, then gets shoved by the other deputy, who earlier was laughing at the doughnut prank.

"Back off! Back off! He assaulted a lieutenant," that marshal shouts. "You back off or you'll go to jail."

In his report, Simoneschi wrote that the man had pushed the stick toward the plain clothes lieutenant's face. The lieutenant was standing on a set of concrete stairs with a retaining wall and hand rail behind him, unable to back away, according to the report.

That's when Simoneschi pushed the man away, he wrote.

"I observed (the man) move closer to (the lieutenant's) face and that (the lieutenant) could not retreat any more or move out of (the man's) way," Simoneschi wrote. "I pushed (the man's) arm and (the man) away from" the lieutenant, his report said.

After, the young man "asked another protester, 'did you get it' and she stated, 'yes I did,'" Simoneschi added.

There had been no issues at the rally until counter-protesters crossed the street to confront the attendees, sheriff's spokesperson Courtney O'Keefe said in an email.

"The individual in the video was also intimidating and verbally attacking 'Back the Blue' rally attendees as they were leaving the area Friday night," she wrote.

On Saturday, the girl related her experience in a public Facebook post. She said she brought the doughnut as a joke, and that earlier in the night it had been well received by people gathered on both sides.

One person went as far as to thank her for bringing humor to "tense events" like Friday night's, she wrote.

The young man, who turned 18 in February, has had previous run-ins with the police, as a juvenile. In January 2019, he was booked for third-degree assault when he swung his arms at an officer while being treated for a suspected alcohol overdose at a local hospital. In July 2018, he reportedly was "angrily yelling profanities" at police when they arrested him for malicious mischief, harassment and fourth-degree assault. And in 2014, when he was just 12, he hit a school staff member and threatened a Lynnwood police officer, according to court documents.

Video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wFAAKVipTciqBJZTGLbyR0NoeFwxckM0/view

"Fourth Degree Assault" in Washington appears to be "unwanted touching" which, as far as I can see, didn't happen in the video.

I thought the change of tone was jarring. At first the cops are laughing him off, till the Lt goes ballistic, and they immediately fall in line.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on July 22, 2020, 02:35:02 AM
To be fair if somebody switched from seemingly jovial to calling me a bootlicker I'd lose my temper as well. Then again I am not a police officer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 22, 2020, 04:51:08 AM
I would think one of the basic requirements one should have as a PO is to maintain one's professionalism and bearing  even when called a 'bootlicker'.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 22, 2020, 10:00:57 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 18, 2020, 06:15:46 AM
It just reinforces my view that DHS needs to be immolated.

We should be able to mock the Russian camouflage-wearing internal security services* without hypocrisy.  :mad:


*And at least they have the fucking basic courtesy of wearing a camouflage pattern that is distinctly different from the regular military.


https://www.stripes.com/news/us/esper-is-worried-federal-agents-in-camouflage-uniforms-in-portland-look-like-us-troops-1.638354

QuoteWASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Mark Esper is worried federal agents dressed in camouflage uniforms on the streets of Portland, Ore, could be mistaken for U.S. troops, the Pentagon's top spokesman said Tuesday.

"There are some law enforcement that wear uniforms that that make them appear military in appearance. The secretary has expressed a concern of this within the administration that we want a system where people can tell the difference," Jonathan Hoffman, the chief Pentagon spokesman, told reporters at the Pentagon.

The concern first surfaced in June during the racial injustice protests in cities throughout the country when law enforcement agencies responded to control crowds. Some of those agencies dressed in gear that made them look like military. The issue has resurfaced with the recent unrest in Portland, where federal law enforcement officers from agencies under the Department of Homeland Security are wearing camouflage uniforms and equipped with body armor and helmets that are almost identical to those worn by American troops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 22, 2020, 09:40:39 PM
The unconstitutionality of the Portland arrests

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1285738001004482561.html

Quote
Today on TV, the Deputy Director of the federal paramilitary force in #PDX discussed the infamous van video. He described a textbook example of an unconstitutional arrest.

But... he doesn't seem to know it.

That is a BIG PROBLEM. Let's unpack this. It's important.


Here (again) is the video of the van encounter.
QuoteT. Greg Doucette
@greg_doucette

Portland, OR: federal troops doing a casual roadside abduction, wordlessly seizing someone and putting them into an unmarked van before driving off

15 July 2020

And here's the press conference, in which a reporter (at 35:02) asks @DHS_Wolf "what level of probable cause are you getting" in these encounters? Wolf turns it over to Kris Cline, Deputy Director of the Federal Protective Service.

Youtube video

Cline says "you're probably talking about the van," and goes on to give the government's account of what happened.
The agents, Cline says, were interested in the man in the video because, earlier, they'd seen him "in a crowd and in an area" where someone ELSE was aiming a laser at the eyes of officers.
I don't know if shining a laser at someone is a federal crime.

It doesn't matter.

The police do not have probable cause to arrest you just because you are standing near someone else who may have committed a crime.
We've all heard the saying that people shouldn't be treated as "guilty by association." Well, that's also the law. To wit, Ybarra v. Illinois, 444 U.S. 85, 91 (1979).

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdfI0GEX0AEaTAw.png)

Cline goes on to say that the agents followed the man in the video—whom they had no basis to arrest—to a calmer location, away from the courthouse, because they wanted to question him.
So far as the Fourth Amendment goes, if that's all they'd actually done, there wouldn't be an issue. The police are allowed to walk up to you and question you, in a "consensual" encounter, so long as a reasonable person in your shoes would think it's ok for you to walk away.
(Side note: These encounters often don't feel consensual in the moment, even though a court will often deem them consensual as a legal matter after the fact. That's a problem for another day.)


Maybe these agents planned to execute one of those "consensual" encounters, maybe not. But in any event, Cline admits—and the video is clear—that they did something very different: they forcibly removed the man from the scene.
Again, not because of anything he did.

According to Cline, the agents grabbed the man because they saw *other* people coming toward them and felt unsafe.
They wanted to leave. They didn't want to let him leave. So they grabbed him and put him in a van and took him, in Cline's words, "to an area that was safe for both the officers and the individual to do the questioning."
Cline doesn't say explicitly where they took the man. But we know from other reporting that another person taken off the street in similar fashion, Mark Pettibone, was taken inside the federal courthouse.

And Cline does explicitly say that the man he is describing (the man from the van video) was questioned for approximately 20 minutes -- something unlikely to have happened out on the street, given the agents' apparent fear of the surrounding crowd.
And then, after those ~20 minutes, the agents "released the individual." Why? Well, let's let Cline explain:

Youtube video

"They released the individual because they did not have what they needed."
Translation: They did not have probable cause.
(Note how this plays out. Eventually, government lawyers show up and apparently say to the agents -- you gotta let this guy go, you have no lawful basis to detain him.)
Ok. Those are the facts, according to the Deputy Director of the federal police force deployed in Portland (and, apparently coming to a city "lead by Democrats" near you).

As far as the Fourth Amendments goes, there's two important points here:
1. Cline admits the agents NEVER had probable cause to arrest this person. That's why they let him go. They didn't have probable cause when the lawyers showed up. They didn't have probable cause when they put the man in the van. They never had it. And they aren't saying they did.
2. This man was arrested.
This isn't one of those law school exam types of cases where you're supposed to say "Well, *maybe* he was arrested."

This is one of those bar exam types of cases where they ask you "Was this an arrest? (A) Yes (B) No."
The answer is yes.
To wit, Dunaway v. New York, 442 U.S. 200 (1979), where the Supreme Court considered whether the police violated the Fourth Amendment when, without probable cause, they took someone "into custody, transported him to the police station, and detained him there for interrogation."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdfUcg_XoAA1WDS.png)

The answer is yes.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdfcB2RX0AAiHaY.png)

Just as in Dunaway, this man was "taken" from the street "where he was found," put into "a police car" (sorta), "transported to a police station" (inside the courthouse), "and placed in an interrogation room," where he was questioned.

That is an arrest. Period.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdfcOd7XYAUT-Vt.png)

So.... the most troubling part of Cline's statement is NOT when he acknowledges the lack of probable cause.

It's when he says that this "simple engagement" was perfectly constitutional because "it's not a custodial arrest."

Youtube video

That statement is glaringly wrong.
It's been wrong since at least 1979.
Let that sink in.
The person in charge of this newly beefed up, paramilitary federal police force DOES NOT KNOW WHAT AN ARREST IS.
That means he doesn't know when he or his officers are committing one... illegally.

In violation of the Fourth Amendment.

Like they unquestionably did here.
Look, you can't possibly conduct arrests lawfully if you don't know your conducting them in the first place.
And if the Deputy Director of this new federal force will say on national TV that what these officers did was legal because "this wasn't an arrest," that raises serious concerns about what his officers are doing out on the street. When the cameras are on, and when they're not.

That's it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2020, 03:58:02 PM
City of Portland, a defendant in the ACLU case and currently subject to a TRO, filed a brief yesterday supporting the ACLU's position against their federal co-defendants - not something you see everyday.

QuoteQuite simply, the City objects to federal defendants targeting non-violent protesters,
reporters, and legal observers. The City also strongly objects to the continued unlawful presence
of heavily armed federal officers on Portland streets despite the City's repeated requests to the
contrary. The actions of federal defendants are escalating violence, inflaming tensions in our
City, and harming Portlanders who seek to engage in non-violent protests in support of racial
justice. Serious and credible allegations have been made that the federal government has
effectively kidnapped people off Portland streets, among other abuses of power. The force used
by federal defendants has allegedly also resulted in at least one very serious injury to a person
shot in the head with an impact munition. The City rejects the unlawful actions of federal
defendants and believes that a temporary restraining order is necessary to prevent further abuses.

Docket is now littered with declarations from journalists attesting to have been shot and shot at by unmarked Feds (with mon lethal ammo)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 23, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
ACLU wins in Portland

https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1286457637161377792
Quote
BREAKING: A federal court just issued a restraining order on the federal agents in Portland, Oregon.

We said we would deploy the full firepower of the ACLU in this fight to save our democracy — and we meant it.

:hmm:

https://patrickwyman.substack.com/p/imperial-wars-always-come-home?r=bi90&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter
QuoteImperial Wars Always Come Home
Patrick Wyman
7 hr   
31
4
There's a person I think about from time to time.

We don't know his name, his exact age, or his precise occupation. But we do know when, where, and how he died: March 29th, 1461, near the village of Towton, in Yorkshire in northern England, the victim of a massive blow - probably from a poleaxe, a wicked axe blade mounted on a six-foot handle - that destroyed the left side of his face. It left behind only fragments of bone where his eye socket and cheek had been, and probably killed him instantly. His mutilated corpse was then stripped naked and thrown in a mass grave along with several dozen other similarly mangled bodies, where they all remained for the next five centuries.

Towton 16, as the owner of these battered remains is known, died in one of the largest battles of the Middle Ages: the Battle of Towton, one of the decisive engagements of the Wars of the Roses, a decades-long period of civil strife and occasional open war that afflicted England between the 1450s and 1480s.

This was the last battle for Towton 16, but it wasn't his first. He was an older man, probably in his 40s, and he was no stranger to violence. Just below the caved-in left side of his skull, a long, old gash ran along his jawbone from cheek to chin: a healed cut, probably from a sword, delivered by a right-handed assailant many years before. It would've left a vicious band of scar tissue running along his face, the kind of trophy that marked Towton 16 as a hard man amongst hard men.

The Bloody Cost of Medieval Warfare
Towton 16 was one of the older men in the mass grave: Most were between 24 and 30, strongly built, and like him familiar with war and violence. There were many such hard men in England in 1461. England had been at war for generations. Its long conflict with France, the Hundred Years War, had only reached an end eight years before. Prior to that, decades of war had taken thousands upon thousands of Englishmen across the Channel to serve in garrisons in Normandy and Aquitaine or burn and slaughter their way across French-held territory in central and northern France. War was a generational pursuit in mid-15th-century England, a career that produced huge numbers of trained and hardened soldiers.

When that war ended in abject failure in 1453 and English politics exploded in civil war soon afterward, due in no small part to failure in France, those out-of-work soldiers didn't stop knowing how to do violence. The nobles who had recruited and led them on foreign campaigns remembered how effective raw force could be. Towton 16 was of an age to have fought in France; so were many of the perhaps 8,000-10,000 who died at Towton that day. A great many of the others were the sons or nephews or grandsons of soldiers. Their weapons and equipment - longbows, poleaxes, two-handed swords, armor-piercing daggers, expensive suits of plate armor - had been produced for and developed over the course of that long, brutal conflict in France. Overseas adventurism helped produce both the tensions that tore English political society apart and the bodies of trained and capable men who slaughtered each other in huge numbers in the course of resolving those tensions.

Towton 16's crushed skull, and the thousands of men who died with him that day, are a good reminder that imperial wars never stay overseas. They always comes home sooner or later.

The last four years have been a period of numbingly rapid change in our politics, a critical juncture containing the seeds of many different potential future paths. That rapid change has built on a much deeper structural foundation rooted in everything from demographic turnover and shifts in partisanship to full-on breakdowns of the formal and informal institutions that make up our political system. This adds up to a full-blown legitimacy crisis for the system as a whole. It's a great deal to take in, even if we choose to put aside the raging pandemic for the moment and concentrate on the purely political. We won't be able to grasp the full implications of everything that's happened for years and even decades to come.

There's a lot to all this, many different threads leading in a bewildering array of directions and encompassing intertwined themes ranging from race and economic structure to policing and foreign policy. It's frankly overwhelming, particularly in an age of constant informational bombardment.

There is a common thread tying together many, if not all, aspects of our ongoing series of crises: These things can be understood - at least partially - as the consequences of empire coming home to roost.

Even by the standards of 2020, recent events in Portland, Oregon - a city I know well and deeply love - still have the capacity to shock. They've showcased the deployment of unidentified federal agents in military-style camouflage, armed with military-style weapons, who have beaten and tear-gassed protesters. This same paramilitary force has also occasionally snatched people off the street in unmarked vehicles and employed (or plan to employ) mass surveillance tools, including drones. The current administration has indicated that it sees Portland as a testbed for these tactics and deployments, with every intention of using them on a broader scale nationwide.


Zane Sparling
@PDXzane
Federal police strike protester with baton, use pepper spray and tear gas outside courthouse in Portland
July 19th 2020

30,430 Retweets77,127 Likes

To put it mildly, this is not good. Portland is hardly under siege by violent anarchists. We've seen mild vandalism of federal property and a few businesses in a restricted section of the city, coupled with largely peaceful protests against police brutality (a particularly vexing problem in a left-leaning city with right-leaning law enforcement institutions). For all but the most committed authoritarians, this is not a sufficient reason to deploy what amounts to a new paramilitary federal police force, much less to let them off the leash to beat, gas, and detain American citizens at will.

This is American policing shorn of any accountability and reduced to its most fundamental, animalistic drive: to maintain a particular social order, benefiting a particular group of Americans, through the open application of violence.

This is deeply troubling. It bodes really, really poorly for the future of the United States if we have a ready-made internal security apparatus for a more competent authoritarian to utilize in the future, staffed with people who are willing and able to do violence to their fellow Americans.

I used the term "shocking" a moment ago, but it really shouldn't be. We saw a dress-rehearsal at Lafayette Square in Washington, D.C. last month, preceded by waves of police violence against protesters across the country, preceded by locking up would-be migrants in what amount to concentration camps...it's a long list of things, whether we choose to focus solely on the past four years or on a longer causal chain stretching back decades. But we can't make sense of either current events or the longer-term antecedents if we restrict our gaze to the United States proper.

The United States, in its restricted territorial sense, is the seat of a global empire. This shouldn't be controversial: The country maintains an archipelago of military bases and other holdings everywhere from the Arctic to South America, from the continental US to Central Asia. Its troops are actively engaged in combat operations across the Middle East and Africa. With a couple of hours' notice, its military forces could be engaged at practically any place in the world on an enormous scale. Technologies change over time, and so do imperial styles; in fact, no two empires - even those existing at the same time - are ever identical in their structures, their ability or willingness to project power, or how they justify their existence to themselves and others. Empire is a spectrum or a continuum, not an either/or proposition, and it's a little bit like the old saying about pornography: You know it when you see it. The United States is an empire, and nobody who works seriously on the subject of empire would be likely to argue otherwise.

Empires usually benefit the people who live in the imperial core. Trade concessions, direct resource extraction, plunder, imperial administrations that offer employment opportunities to a bureaucratic class, a professionalized and well-funded military: all of these things are inducements to expand and maintain an empire, and there are many more, not the least of which is ideological. Wielding power makes people feel good. Imperial elites, of course, benefit most of all: American empire remains and has been a bipartisan project, one beloved of both parties' foreign-policy establishments and the Washington, D.C. "Blob" since World War II and at various stages before then. American global hegemony wasn't an accident, but a consciously constructed and pursued policy that operated on multiple fronts and via many different prongs. It's embedded in the dollar's dominance, free-trade agreements, climate regulation (or lack thereof), and many other things. Overseas imperial wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the current programs related to the War on Terror are just visible symbols.

But it's not hard to see that the American imperial project is in trouble. Iraq didn't end in a resounding victory; Afghanistan is still ongoing; the War on Terror has produced a massive group of special-operations warriors on constant and secretive deployment along with an expansive campaign of unaccountable drone strikes; and the Trump era has sounded the death knell of anything like American soft power overseas.

At times like this, when the empire abroad starts to come apart, domestic blowback is a common consequence. Empires, and imperial failures, rarely stay out of sight and out of mind if they become an ongoing pattern. The tools of empire don't stay overseas, trained solely on those designated as the empire's enemies; they find new targets, new uses, in the hands of people looking to grab the shreds of power left behind as the empire collapses in on itself.

Because I spent so long working on the later Roman Empire and its political disintegration, I'm deeply wary of making too explicit a comparison between it and the present-day United States. It's too easy to make an overdetermined, square-peg-into-round-hole type of argument simply because it's available and I know it well.

But one area where the comparison makes a great deal of sense lies in the role of the frontier.

There are a lot of different ways of understanding the end of the Roman Empire in the west: barbarian invasions, internal dissension, economic collapse, some combination of the above, or a gradual slip into imperial senescence. The one that's always made the most sense to me focuses on the imperial periphery.

The Roman Empire's frontier zones were a space dominated by the Roman army, not just as a military force but also as a cultural and economic institution. When the people living beyond the frontiers - barbarians - interacted with the Roman Empire, they were really interacting with its army. Sometimes they fought it, sometimes they supplied it with food and supplies, and most often, they joined it. The result was a distinctive shade of frontier culture focused on the Roman military, but with a healthy dose of "barbarian" - wearing trousers, using Germanic words, and so on - mixed in. This culture encompassed both sides of the border, creating a zone of intense interaction stretching well into both the barbarian lands and the Roman Empire.

In the later stages of the Roman Empire's existence in the west, it's often hard to tell the difference between a force of rampaging barbarians and a Roman field army. Both drew their recruits primarily from people living beyond the frontier. They used the same kinds of swords and wore the same kinds of helmet: Even the famous Sutton Hoo helmet from 6th-century England is just a Roman cavalry helmet (a Spangenhelm) with a cool-looking mustachioed face mask added. Roman soldiers spoke a variety of camp Latin that was generously spiced with Germanic words. Plenty of barbarian raiders had served time in the Roman military; it's not hard to imagine that some barbarian recruits into the Roman army had probably raided Roman territory at some point before they joined up. Even Roman soldiers recruited inside the empire's boundaries were often descended from recently settled barbarian groups.

The upshot of all this is that rather than seeing a series of barbarian invasions that brought foreign invaders into the Roman heartlands, we should instead think of what happened as the transposition of frontier culture from the periphery to the imperial core. We can't really draw a line between the "barbarian" and Roman military, because there wasn't a firm distinction; the two bled into one another, and it's easier to think of this as a militarized and ethnically distinct frontier culture. This culture, and people who had been brought up with it and molded by it, was what moved, not a distinct series of barbarian ethnic groups who were unfamiliar with Roman ways and practices.

The Roman frontier was a violent place. It was, after all, a militarized space. When the frontier and its military culture expanded into the formerly peaceful Roman core, violence came with it. A military aristocracy that derived its position from its war-making capacity replaced the Roman civic elite; where the latter survived, it assimilated to the new, militarized aristocratic culture. Armies tramped through the interior, sacking and burning cities like Rome and Carthage. It's a safe bet that the average folks of lowland Britain, coastal Spain, and fertile North Africa didn't welcome the sight of the frontier coming toward them; that meant violence, blood-stained swords, armored men rifling through their possessions, burning huts, and much more.

When we see Border Patrol agents wearing camouflage and helmets, carrying M4s with optics, rigged up like they're about to go on patrol in Ramadi or the Korengal Valley (or deal with a migrant caravan in the southwest), that's empire coming home. The viciousness of their handling of immigration during the Trump era, complete with threats of gunfire, concentration camps, and consistent dehumanization, has been a preview of their handling of American citizens. So too have been the various misdeeds of American soldiers overseas.

Even leaving aside the fact that the mishmash of federal agencies providing these paramilitary forces are stocked with veterans of overseas conflict - about 30 percent of Border Patrol agents are veterans, for example - the equipment and us vs. them way of approaching conflict are straight out of the imperial frontier. The fact that these paramilitary policemen aren't actually soldiers isn't as relevant as the ways of thinking about force and power, and who constitutes a legitimate target for violence, that empire produces. At this point, the periphery has entered the imperial core.

When we see armed agents of the state beating a Navy veteran with batons, tear-gassing moms in bike helmets and the mayor of Portland, and planning further deployments to Chicago and Albuquerque, I can't help but think of that man who spent five centuries buried in a mass grave at Towton, of his old wound and crushed face. Is that where we're heading? Is it inevitable that the tools of imperial war will be even more explicitly turned against people here at home?

All empires fall. When they do, the violence and terror they've wrought on others has a way of coming back around.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 23, 2020, 11:43:00 PM
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1286477992672268289?s=20

"They knocked the hell out of him. That was the end of him" - Trump about Mayor Wheeler being teargassed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 24, 2020, 11:49:23 AM
Trump's response to the Portland protests.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ELuUzct3A
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 24, 2020, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 23, 2020, 11:43:00 PM
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1286477992672268289?s=20

"They knocked the hell out of him. That was the end of him" - Trump about Mayor Wheeler being teargassed.

I'm no Wheeler fan - I'll be voting against him in November - but this is bullshit. What it did was show Wheeler that his tactics prior to the feds showing up were uncalled for and wrong. And fuck Trump. Just fuck him in the eye.  <_<
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 26, 2020, 03:04:00 PM
Shootings, one dead, buildings on fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peag3gWCRM8

Not good stuff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 26, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
This is going to get worse before it gets better. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 26, 2020, 04:48:42 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 26, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
This is going to get worse before it gets better. :(

Good news, everyone. It's going to get better!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 26, 2020, 05:54:17 PM
There were rival militias staring each other down in Kentucky yesterday.  That's a rather ominous sign.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 05:13:58 PM
Here's what happens when you hold a Black Lives Matter sign in Arkansas https://imgur.com/gallery/GWcBFlx

america in 2020.

Cue the "well that's Arkansas, it's not like this in my state. You gotta understand, the US is 50 states, we're all so different" responses in 3, 2, 1...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 27, 2020, 05:54:37 PM
Nah, people yell out their car windows everywhere.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 27, 2020, 05:57:01 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 05:13:58 PM
Here's what happens when you hold a Black Lives Matter sign in Arkansas https://imgur.com/gallery/GWcBFlx (https://imgur.com/gallery/GWcBFlx)

america in 2020.

Cue the "well that's Arkansas, it's not like this in my state. You gotta understand, the US is 50 states, we're all so different" responses in 3, 2, 1...


Nah, I could see this happening in Missouri.  Guy should have taken pictures of the licence plates.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 27, 2020, 07:25:06 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 05:13:58 PM
Here's what happens when you hold a Black Lives Matter sign in Arkansas https://imgur.com/gallery/GWcBFlx

america in 2020.

Cue the "well that's Arkansas, it's not like this in my state. You gotta understand, the US is 50 states, we're all so different" responses in 3, 2, 1...

Link doesn't work :hmm:

But right wing paranoid propaganda is becoming ever more toxic and poisonous to our body politic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 27, 2020, 07:50:08 PM
It was a guy holding up a BLM sign on a street corner getting yelled at, occasionally with racial slurs.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 08:20:51 PM
Here's a YouTube link

https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 27, 2020, 09:40:37 PM
I have a feeling that kids will be taught about the summer of the plague for generations.  This is not a a good time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 27, 2020, 09:45:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 27, 2020, 09:40:37 PM
I have a feeling that kids will be taught about the summer of the plague for generations.  This is not a a good time.
I hope it would be the plague that would be remembered, and not something for which the plague was just an ominous prelude.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 27, 2020, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 08:20:51 PM
Here's a YouTube link

https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto

KKK HQ, what did he expect from those loons. You can do better than that  Frenchy.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 27, 2020, 10:07:01 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 08:20:51 PM
Here's a YouTube link

https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto

North America in 2020.

Cue the "well that's the US, it's not like this in my country. You gotta understand, North America is three countries, we're all so different" responses in 3, 2, 1...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on July 27, 2020, 10:13:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9o9gtjClxY
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 27, 2020, 10:21:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 27, 2020, 10:13:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9o9gtjClxY

Remember the days when FAIL videos were not completely moronic?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 27, 2020, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 27, 2020, 10:07:01 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 08:20:51 PM
Here's a YouTube link

https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto

North America in 2020.

Cue the "well that's the US, it's not like this in my country. You gotta understand, North America is three countries, we're all so different" responses in 3, 2, 1...

10 :contract:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 10:28:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 27, 2020, 10:07:01 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 08:20:51 PM
Here's a YouTube link

https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto

North America in 2020.

Cue the "well that's the US, it's not like this in my country. You gotta understand, North America is three countries, we're all so different" responses in 3, 2, 1...

:console:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 27, 2020, 10:29:56 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 08:20:51 PM
Here's a YouTube link

https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto

That one dude was right- he does indeed look like a white guy holding a Black Lives Matter sign.   :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 27, 2020, 11:08:17 PM
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/509295-gop-senator-deletes-ad-that-showed-jewish-opponent-with-larger-nose

america in 2020.

"What do you expect frenchy! It's Georgia!" etc etc ad vitam aeternam.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 27, 2020, 11:13:03 PM
So the guy says that "literally no one" believes the excuses about his nose?  :hmm: I'm not sure he understands the voters well enough to make it in politics.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on July 28, 2020, 02:51:17 PM
Well damn. Seems the American version of Daesh is hard at work trying to kick off that civil war they're after.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/#43498ec759bd

Totally missed this when it happened. Apparently anotjer case lately of a guy with an umbrella trying to start a riot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 28, 2020, 03:08:24 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 28, 2020, 02:51:17 PM
Well damn. Seems the American version of Daesh is hard at work trying to kick off that civil war they're after.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/#43498ec759bd (https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/#43498ec759bd)


It's very concerning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 28, 2020, 04:25:08 PM
Yeah it seems there are armed terroristic thugs coming to my town from the outside to threaten our city council with death for...um...something about antifa. So I guess I might have to attend city council meeting in the future to help defend my town from outside thugs. I mean fuck I would rather pull my eyeballs out then sit through a fucking city council meeting and now I get the additional pleasure of potentially sitting beside heavily armed nutjobs who do not even live anywhere near my town there to try to direct policy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 28, 2020, 04:31:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 28, 2020, 03:08:24 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 28, 2020, 02:51:17 PM
Well damn. Seems the American version of Daesh is hard at work trying to kick off that civil war they're after.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/#43498ec759bd (https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/#43498ec759bd)


It's very concerning.
There's been several examples of this with them - I think Richmond Police have said they think boogaloo boys were instigating recent violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 28, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 28, 2020, 04:25:08 PM
Yeah it seems there are armed terroristic thugs coming to my town from the outside to threaten our city council with death for...um...something about antifa. So I guess I might have to attend city council meeting in the future to help defend my town from outside thugs. I mean fuck I would rather pull my eyeballs out then sit through a fucking city council meeting and now I get the additional pleasure of potentially sitting beside heavily armed nutjobs who do not even live anywhere near my town there to try to direct policy.


This reminds of a story about how boring city council meetings are.  My mother was elected to the city council and she was sworn in during one of the meetings.  On the front page of the local paper they had a picture of a man sleeping on one of the benches for observers.  The caption said "unknown man sleeps during council meeting".  The unknown man was, of course, my father.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 28, 2020, 06:31:01 PM
Yep I am now attending these boring stupid city council meetings thanks to these heavily armed nutjobs starting Thursday. Fuck 2020.

And of course the member of the council getting the most intimidation is the woman, because of course.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on July 28, 2020, 06:37:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 28, 2020, 06:31:01 PM
Yep I am now attending these boring stupid city council meetings thanks to these heavily armed nutjobs starting Thursday. Fuck 2020.

And of course the member of the council getting the most intimidation is the woman, because of course.

She should threaten to sit with each of them, alone, one at a time, in a separate room.  Watch them run.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 28, 2020, 08:58:42 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 28, 2020, 02:51:17 PM
Well damn. Seems the American version of Daesh is hard at work trying to kick off that civil war they're after.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/#43498ec759bd

Totally missed this when it happened. Apparently anotjer case lately of a guy with an umbrella trying to start a riot.

Isn't that exactly what Charles Manson was up to with his "Helter Skelter" murders - trying to incite a race war?

So this is a tradition.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 28, 2020, 09:15:20 PM
How does white people murdering a white actress do that anyway?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on July 28, 2020, 09:24:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 28, 2020, 06:31:01 PM
Yep I am now attending these boring stupid city council meetings thanks to these heavily armed nutjobs starting Thursday. Fuck 2020.

And of course the member of the council getting the most intimidation is the woman, because of course.

It's because they're terrified of her. She might scream rape in the middle of the city council meeting and damn them all to prison - or have a headline written about them -  for no reason at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 28, 2020, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 28, 2020, 09:15:20 PM
How does white people murdering a white actress do that anyway?

Perhaps not the best plan ever made ...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 29, 2020, 10:00:14 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 28, 2020, 09:15:20 PM
How does white people murdering a white actress do that anyway?

Manson supposedly wanted the police to think that these murders (and that of Gary Hindman, killed by a Manson acolyte a couple of months before) were carried out by the Black panthers as part of the start of a race war.  There's a strong theory that the whole "Helter Skelter" thing was just an attempt to cover up that first a murder, not to start a race war.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 29, 2020, 10:05:03 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 29, 2020, 10:00:14 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 28, 2020, 09:15:20 PM
How does white people murdering a white actress do that anyway?

Manson supposedly wanted the police to think that these murders (and that of Gary Hindman, killed by a Manson acolyte a couple of months before) were carried out by the Black panthers as part of the start of a race war.  There's a strong theory that the whole "Helter Skelter" thing was just an attempt to cover up that first a murder, not to start a race war.
Yeah there was all of the painting "Pigs" on the wall etc.

I wouldn't compare this with Manson because as you say I'm not really convinced by that explanation. To me it seems like old fashioned provocations/false flags.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 03:24:07 PM
So, one of the guys leading the riots in Minneapolis a few months back turned out to be a member of a gang calling themselves the "Aryan Cowboys'.  Also affiliated with the Hell's Angels.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on July 29, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 03:24:07 PM
So, one of the guys leading the riots in Minneapolis a few months back turned out to be a member of a gang calling themselves the "Aryan Cowboys'.  Also affiliated with the Hell's Angels.

Do they wear black stetsons with swastikas in the hatband?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 29, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 03:24:07 PM
So, one of the guys leading the riots in Minneapolis a few months back turned out to be a member of a gang calling themselves the "Aryan Cowboys'.  Also affiliated with the Hell's Angels.

Do they wear black stetsons with swastikas in the hatband?


I dunno.  I'm getting the feeling this is one of those "Bikers for Trump" that the President is likes so much.  Very fine people don't you know?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on July 30, 2020, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 29, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 03:24:07 PM
So, one of the guys leading the riots in Minneapolis a few months back turned out to be a member of a gang calling themselves the "Aryan Cowboys'.  Also affiliated with the Hell's Angels.

Do they wear black stetsons with swastikas in the hatband?


I dunno.  I'm getting the feeling this is one of those "Bikers for Trump" that the President is likes so much.  Very fine people don't you know?

(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3e4941631d4cde6a4b585a041d12b304)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 30, 2020, 03:54:14 AM
:lol:
Quote"At one point last month, the president privately asked in a meeting if his people could organize more boater events and even inquired, "Are we polling the boaters yet?"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 30, 2020, 03:56:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 30, 2020, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 29, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 29, 2020, 03:24:07 PM
So, one of the guys leading the riots in Minneapolis a few months back turned out to be a member of a gang calling themselves the "Aryan Cowboys'.  Also affiliated with the Hell's Angels.

Do they wear black stetsons with swastikas in the hatband?


I dunno.  I'm getting the feeling this is one of those "Bikers for Trump" that the President is likes so much.  Very fine people don't you know?

(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3e4941631d4cde6a4b585a041d12b304)

Yeah, at least Putin's guy looks the part of strong henchman to a Bond villain.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 01, 2020, 06:44:18 AM
Supercut of reactions (down south, by the accent) to a white guy holding a BLM sign: https://twitter.com/____zo_____/status/1288883000181219329?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 01, 2020, 12:05:23 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 01, 2020, 06:44:18 AM
Supercut of reactions (down south, by the accent) to a white guy holding a BLM sign: https://twitter.com/____zo_____/status/1288883000181219329?s=20

It's actually Harrison, Arkansas. Original video here: https://youtu.be/ltmlvk9GAto

(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/200731092217-restricted-blm-sign-kkk-headquarters-trnd-exlarge-169.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 01, 2020, 03:40:45 PM
Arkansas scares me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 01, 2020, 03:43:32 PM
It did give us the Oral Office though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 01, 2020, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 01, 2020, 03:43:32 PM
It did give us the Oral Office though.

Nice one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 01, 2020, 08:01:26 PM
I don't doubt that Arkansas is not the safe haven for racially tolerant people, but the problem with all these cut videos is that you have no idea how frequent that kind of response was.  Did every single person scream a racial obscenity, every fifth one, every twentieth, etc.?  I'm sure you can get some of these responses even in NYC if you wait long enough.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 01, 2020, 08:03:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2020, 08:01:26 PM
I don't doubt that Arkansas is not the safe haven for racially tolerant people, but the problem with all these cut videos is that you have no idea how frequent that kind of response was.  Did every single person scream a racial obscenity, every fifth one, every twentieth, etc.?  I'm sure you can get some of these responses even in NYC if you wait long enough.

Not to mention how easy it would be to set up a friend to play a bigot.

These YouTube clips are fun entertainment, but no one should take them as news.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 01, 2020, 08:14:38 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2020, 08:01:26 PM
I don't doubt that Arkansas is not the safe haven for racially tolerant people, but the problem with all these cut videos is that you have no idea how frequent that kind of response was.  Did every single person scream a racial obscenity, every fifth one, every twentieth, etc.?  I'm sure you can get some of these responses even in NYC if you wait long enough.

That's a problem if you need to know with some precision what percentage of the fine citizenry of Harrison AR want to string up coons from lamp posts; otherwise just the raw number gives you a good indication that this is not a fringe.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 03, 2020, 11:36:39 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53636098

QuoteKaepernick shirt used as a target at Navy Seal event

The US Navy Seals are investigating after footage emerged of military dogs attacking a "stand-in" wearing a Colin Kaepernick shirt at an event last year.

The video was reportedly taken at the National Navy Seal Museum in Florida in 2019, but went viral this weekend.

In a statement, the Navy Seals said the video was "completely inconsistent" with its values.

Kaepernick, a quarterback, began kneeling during the national anthem to protest racial injustice in 2016.

Several clips posted on Twitter on Sunday show a target wearing the red Kaepernick jersey being attacked by a number of military dogs.

In one video, the man appears to say "Oh man, I will stand" after being brought down by the dogs, drawing laughter from the crowd
.

"We became aware today of a video of a Navy Seal Museum event posted last year," the Navy Seals said in a message posted on Twitter.

"The inherent message of this video is completely inconsistent with the values and ethos of Naval Special Warfare and the US Navy.

"We are investigating the matter fully and initial indications are that there were no active duty Navy personnel or equipment involved with this independent organisation's event."

Kaepernick first started kneeling during the national anthem in 2016 when he was a player for the San Francisco 49ers.

However, he faced a strong backlash and has remained unsigned for several years.

Only this year did the National Football League (NFL) reverse its opposition to players taking a knee during the anthem.

The decision came amid global protests over the death of African-American George Floyd while in police custody.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 03, 2020, 11:38:59 AM
Dogs eh? Well that doesn't remind us of anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 03, 2020, 12:33:58 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2020, 11:36:39 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53636098

QuoteKaepernick shirt used as a target at Navy Seal event

The US Navy Seals are investigating after footage emerged of military dogs attacking a "stand-in" wearing a Colin Kaepernick shirt at an event last year.

The video was reportedly taken at the National Navy Seal Museum in Florida in 2019, but went viral this weekend.

In a statement, the Navy Seals said the video was "completely inconsistent" with its values.

Kaepernick, a quarterback, began kneeling during the national anthem to protest racial injustice in 2016.

Several clips posted on Twitter on Sunday show a target wearing the red Kaepernick jersey being attacked by a number of military dogs.

In one video, the man appears to say "Oh man, I will stand" after being brought down by the dogs, drawing laughter from the crowd
.

"We became aware today of a video of a Navy Seal Museum event posted last year," the Navy Seals said in a message posted on Twitter.

"The inherent message of this video is completely inconsistent with the values and ethos of Naval Special Warfare and the US Navy.

"We are investigating the matter fully and initial indications are that there were no active duty Navy personnel or equipment involved with this independent organisation's event."

Kaepernick first started kneeling during the national anthem in 2016 when he was a player for the San Francisco 49ers.

However, he faced a strong backlash and has remained unsigned for several years.

Only this year did the National Football League (NFL) reverse its opposition to players taking a knee during the anthem.

The decision came amid global protests over the death of African-American George Floyd while in police custody.


The BBC continues to depress me with its declining intellectual integrity and/or competence.  The title is false; this wasn't a Navy SEAL event (oh, and BTW, BBC, SEAL is all caps, like BBC is), it was a private museum event.  These weren't military dogs, they were owned by the museum.

Its disgusting, but special forces groupies do disgusting things; it's in their nature.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 03, 2020, 12:53:38 PM
The BBC needs the clicks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 03, 2020, 02:53:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2020, 11:38:59 AM
Dogs eh? Well that doesn't remind us of anything.

Fellow NFL quarterback Michael Vick?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 06, 2020, 02:35:53 PM
QuoteU.S. District Court Judge Carlton Reeves couldn't do justice for the plaintiff in his court, who had sued over police abuse. The Supreme Court won't let him. So Reeves issued an opinion that dutifully followed the law — and blistered the justices for the all-but-insurmountable barrier they have constructed to shield police officers from being held to account.

Reeves, a Barack Obama nominee who sits in Jackson, Miss., and is the second Black federal judge in the history of the state, produced one of the most powerful pieces of legal writing I have encountered. His opinion is a 72-page cri de coeur directed at the Supreme Court, arguing that it must do away with the doctrine of "qualified immunity" for law enforcement officials.

Reeves begins with the larger context. "Clarence Jamison wasn't jaywalking." Footnote: "That was Michael Brown," shot by police in Ferguson, Mo. "He wasn't outside playing with a toy gun." Footnote: "That was 12-year-old Tamir Rice," shot in a park by a Cleveland police officer. "He wasn't suspected of 'selling loose, untaxed cigarettes.' " Footnote: "That was Eric Garner," the Staten Island man who died after an officer put him in a chokehold.
AD

And on and on, for 19 excruciating footnotes, George Floyd and Philando Castile, Sandra Bland and Breonna Taylor, until we get to Jamison's non-offense: "He didn't make an 'improper lane change.' He didn't have a broken tail light. He wasn't driving over the speed limit. He wasn't driving under the speed limit. No, Clarence Jamison was a Black man driving a Mercedes convertible." In 2013, in Pelahatchie, Miss., an hour south of Philadelphia, Miss., where Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner and James Chaney were killed in 1964. Because his temporary tag — he had just purchased the car — was allegedly folded over.

As Reeves recounts, Jamison's fate was less dire than that of many others: "As he made his way home to South Carolina from a vacation in Arizona, Jamison was pulled over and subjected to one hundred and ten minutes of an armed police officer badgering him, pressuring him, lying to him and then searching his car top to bottom for drugs. Nothing was found. Jamison isn't a drug courier. He's a welder."

Jamison wasn't shot. He wasn't killed. But he was frightened and humiliated, and his car suffered several thousand dollars in damage to its seats and convertible top. And, as Reeves found, his constitutional rights were violated: Officer Nick McClendon's search of Jamison's car violated the Fourth Amendment, and Jamison's supposed "consent" to the search could hardly be deemed voluntary.
AD

"In an America where Black people 'are considered dangerous even when they are in their living rooms eating ice cream, asleep in their beds, playing in the park, standing in the pulpit of their church, birdwatching, exercising in public, or walking home from a trip to the store to purchase a bag of Skittles,' " Reeves wrote, "who can say that Jamison felt free that night on the side of Interstate 20? Who can say that he felt free to say no to an armed Officer McClendon?"

But none of that mattered, which brings us to the larger context that Reeves explores: the purpose of the federal civil rights law under which Jamison sued McClendon. Its popular name tells the story: the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871, a Reconstruction era-effort to respond to what a later court described as the "reign of terror imposed by the Klan upon black citizens and their white sympathizers in the Southern States." The law, now commonly known as Section 1983, provides for damages against state officials who deprive individuals of their constitutional rights.

All good, but for the fact that the Supreme Court began to eviscerate the law more than 50 years ago. As Reeves explains, "Judges have invented a legal doctrine to protect law enforcement officers from having to face any consequences for wrongdoing. The doctrine is called 'qualified immunity.' In real life it operates like absolute immunity."
AD

Nothing in the text of the 1871 statute provides for immunity — not a single word — but the court imported common-law protections in 1967 to shield officials operating in good faith.

Then, in 1982, it went further. To be held liable, it's not enough to prove that a police officer violated someone's constitutional rights; the right must be so "clearly established" that "every reasonable official would have understood that what he is doing violates that right." There must be a case on point, except that how can there be a case on point if there wasn't one already in existence. This is Catch-22 meets Section 1983.

Numerous justices across the ideological spectrum — Anthony M. Kennedy, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Sonia Sotomayor — have criticized the doctrine. But the court has appeared unwilling to do anything about it. As its term concluded, the court refused to hear any of the eight cases offering it the opportunity to reconsider the doctrine.
AD

This cannot continue. As Reeves writes, "The status quo is extraordinary and unsustainable. Just as the Supreme Court swept away the mistaken doctrine of 'separate but equal,' so too should it eliminate the doctrine of qualified immunity."

The judge couldn't help Jamison. But maybe his message to his judicial bosses will help future Jamisons win the justice they deserve.

Link (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-supreme-court-invented-qualified-immunity-now-a-judges-blistering-opinion-shows-why-it-must-go/2020/08/05/f72778e6-d74a-11ea-930e-d88518c57dcc_story.html?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-f-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 07, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
https://apnews.com/7e660cd8c172fca5cd49e703d74f92fc

QuoteUtah protesters face charges with potential life sentence

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Some Black Lives Matter protesters in Salt Lake City could face up to life in prison if they're convicted of splashing red paint and smashing windows during a protest, a potential punishment that stands out among demonstrators arrested around the country and one that critics say doesn't fit the alleged crime.

The felony criminal mischief charges are more serious because they carry a gang enhancement. Prosecutors said Wednesday that's justified because the protesters worked together to cause thousands of dollars in damage, but watchdogs called the use of the 1990s-era law troubling, especially in the context of criminal justice reform and minority communities.

"This is so far beyond just the enforcement of the law, it feels retaliatory," said Madalena McNeil, who is facing a potential life sentence over felony criminal mischief and riot charges. Charging documents say she bought red paint at a Home Depot before the July 9 demonstration sparked by a fatal police shooting ruling. She later yelled at and shifted her weight as if to slam into police during the demonstration, charges state. "It's really frustrating and scary ... I just feel so much concern for what this means for the right to protest in general."

The charges have Democratic leaders at odds in Salt Lake City, the liberal-leaning capital of conservative Utah, with the top county prosecutor arguing vandalism crossed a line and the mayor calling the charges too extreme.

The potential life sentence stands out as harsh punishment even among other people facing felony charges stemming from protests around the country. In Portland, Oregon, for instance, a 32-year-old man is facing up to 20 years on an arson charge alleging he broke into a building that houses the police headquarters and set an office on fire.

The Utah demonstrators are unlikely to serve prison time, said Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill. Though they'd get at least five years if convicted as charged, criminal cases often end with a plea to lesser counts.

"I don't think anyone is going to be going to prison on this," he said. Gill is a generally reform-minded Democrat who said he has participated in Black Lives Matter protests himself and declined to charge dozens of protesters accused of curfew violations.

Still, he argued "there's some people who want to engage in protest, but they want to be absolved of absolved of any behavior," he said. "This is not about protest, this is about people who are engaging in criminal conduct."

But for the American Civil Liberties Union of Utah, invoking a law aimed at street gangs in troubling, especially against demonstrators of color. "You are calling participants in a protest gang members," said attorney Jason Groth.

And there are other side effects to criminal charges, he said. McNeil tweeted Thursday she was asked resign from her job in the nonprofit sector and all the defendants have to post $50,000 bail to get out of jail.

"This is the highest degree felony. This is usually reserved for murders and rapists," said attorney Brent Huff, who represents co-defendant Madison Alleman.

Another defense attorney Jesse Nix, who represents protester Viviane Turman, questioned whether Gill should have filed charges involving his own office. "No one should get life in prison for putting paint on a building," he said.

Gill countered that short staffing during the coronavirus pandemic necessitated that but others will handle the case going forward.

More than 30 people have been charged with various crimes in Salt Lake County since the national wave of protests over George Floyd's death began in late May. Similar first-degree felony counts have also been filed against people accused of flipping and burning a police car May 30.

"We have to have some agreement of what constitutes protected First Amendment speech," Gill said. "When you cross that threshold, should you be held accountable or not?"

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 07, 2020, 02:05:47 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 07, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
QuoteUtah protesters face charges with potential life sentence

So instead of fining them for the damage and keeping them in the county jail for a few months we get to house them for decades at immense public expense for property damange? :hmm: Shouldn't we be primarily locking people up who actually dangerous?

Sounds like a good plan.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 07, 2020, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2020, 02:05:47 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 07, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
QuoteUtah protesters face charges with potential life sentence

So instead of fining them for the damage and keeping them in the county jail for a few months we get to house them for decades at immense public expense for property damange? :hmm: Shouldn't we be primarily locking people up who actually dangerous?

Sounds like a good plan.

Hey. what's good for Louisiana ...

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/05/899525589/louisiana-supreme-court-wont-review-life-sentence-for-man-who-stole-hedge-clippe

QuoteLouisiana Supreme Court Won't Review Life Sentence For Man Who Stole Hedge Clippers

(the man in the article was convicted of armed robbery in '79, possession of stolen property in '87, attempted check forgery in '89, burglary in '92, before pulling the hedge clipper heist in '97)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 07, 2020, 02:13:59 PM
Oh sure they have plenty of money to lock up hedge clipper stealers for life but can't fix their damn roads.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 10, 2020, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 07, 2020, 02:08:49 PM
(the man in the article was convicted of armed robbery in '79, possession of stolen property in '87, attempted check forgery in '89, burglary in '92, before pulling the hedge clipper heist in '97)

Someone in 2002 still has their garden hose thanks to the vigilance of the State of Lousiana.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 10, 2020, 09:42:31 PM
But can they drink from it?  :berkut:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 11, 2020, 01:02:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2020, 02:05:47 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 07, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
QuoteUtah protesters face charges with potential life sentence

So instead of fining them for the damage and keeping them in the county jail for a few months we get to house them for decades at immense public expense for property damange? :hmm: Shouldn't we be primarily locking people up who actually dangerous?

Sounds like a good plan.
they are dangerous.  But life imprisonment is too harsh.  10-15 years of hard labour to pay back the costs of the damages, with interests, would be enough.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 11, 2020, 03:11:48 AM
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/08/10/san-francisco-becomes-first-county-in-the-nation-to-offer-free-calls-to-jail-inmates-1306715

QuoteSan Francisco becomes first county in the nation to offer free calls to jail inmates

San Francisco has become the first county in the nation to offer free phone calls to inmates from county jail — one of a series of reforms that Mayor London Breed announced Monday to "stop generating revenue from incarcerated people and their families."

Marking up prices for phone calls and commissary items remains a widespread practice in jails and prisons across the country, Breed's office noted Monday — but with the action, San Francisco now joins New York City in slashing or eliminating these costs and becomes the first county in the nation to make the move.

"Being able to stay in touch with family is always important, but it is even more critical during a health emergency like COVID-19," Breed said in a statement. "This change is an important continuation of our efforts to reform fines and fees that disproportionately impact low-income people and communities of color." Incarcerated people and their families paid more than $1 million for phone calls from county jails in 2018, she said.

Breed included the plan to make jail phone calls free and end commissary markups in her budget for fiscal year 2019-20 and credited Sheriff Paul Miyamoto with developing the details over the past year. Miyamoto negotiated the county's "first-in-the-nation fixed rate contract" with GTL, a jail phone service contractor, "to ensure the lowest possible cost to the City and taxpayers," Breed said. Under the new contract, rather than families having to pay GTL per minute, the city will pay the vendor a fixed monthly rate per phone device, according to Breed's office. The new contract also allows for free video calls.

Earlier this year, Miyamoto's office eliminated markups for commissary items, reducing prices an average of 43 percent. For example, a package of Top Ramen — a staple at many prisons — now costs $0.50, down from $1.08, and shoes are now priced at $19, down from $30, Breed's office said.

The San Francisco initiative comes as a parallel effort is before the state legislature. CA SB555 (19R), sponsored by state Sen. Holly Mitchell (D-Los Angeles), would change contracting rules to reduce jail phone call rates and eliminate commissary markups statewide. The bill is being heard in the Assembly Appropriations Committee on Friday.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 11, 2020, 03:31:29 AM
I get the general point of not creating financial incentives for locking people up, but phone bills? If it is morally wrong to charge convicted criminals for their phone calls, how it is not morally wrong to charge me for them?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 11, 2020, 03:34:19 AM
You can go visit the person anytime you want.

Hell, replace phone calls with food in your question.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 11, 2020, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 11, 2020, 03:31:29 AM
I get the general point of not creating financial incentives for locking people up, but phone bills? If it is morally wrong to charge convicted criminals for their phone calls, how it is not morally wrong to charge me for them?

I suppose it depends on how serious one is about rehabilitating criminals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 11, 2020, 04:09:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 11, 2020, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 11, 2020, 03:31:29 AM
I get the general point of not creating financial incentives for locking people up, but phone bills? If it is morally wrong to charge convicted criminals for their phone calls, how it is not morally wrong to charge me for them?

I suppose it depends on how serious one is about rehabilitating criminals.

I guess.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 11, 2020, 11:44:28 AM
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2020/07/17/noise-complaint-fatal-police-shooting-ryan-whitaker/5459142002/

QuoteIt started as a noise complaint. It ended in another fatal Phoenix police shooting

Ryan Whitaker had heard a stranger knock on his Ahwatukee apartment door in the middle of the night earlier in May. So when he heard a similar knock on a Thursday after 10 p.m. later that same week, he answered the door holding his 9 mm gun.

Holding the gun in his right hand, he was confronted by two Phoenix police officers standing on either side of the door. They appeared surprised by the sight of the firearm, body camera footage shows.

Three seconds after Whitaker opened the door, Phoenix Officer Jeff Cooke shot Whitaker in the back at least two times, killing the 40-year-old man.

The deadly episode, which happened on May 21, is part of a string of Phoenix police shootings this year that has, yet again, reinvigorated criticism from advocates who say officers are too quick to use deadly force to resolve incidents.

Phoenix police had portrayed Whitaker's shooting as an emergency domestic violence call. A 30-minute police body camera video released this week indicates the incident started over a noise complaint from a neighbor upstairs who called police twice.

The police report and Officer John Ferragamo's body camera footage was released this week as part of a public records request from The Arizona Republic and the family's lawyer. Ferragamo was the other officer at the scene with Cooke. He pointed his firearm at Whitaker but did not shoot.

The family's lawyer says the footage shows Cooke overreacted and was reckless.

"The Phoenix Police Department knew from the night of the shooting that this was a false and exaggerated 911 call," Matthew Cunnigham said.

The caller complained about people screaming at each other and said he couldn't go to sleep because of the noise. In a second call to 911, he alleges that the screaming had escalated into a physical fight.

"It could be physical," the caller told a 911 dispatcher. "I could say yeah if that makes anybody hurry on up. Get anybody here faster."

When Cooke and Ferragamo arrived at the apartment building, Ferragamo sounded annoyed because the caller didn't provide more details, according to the video footage.

"Did you like all that helpful info we got from our complainant?" Ferragamo is heard telling Cooke as they walk to Whitaker's apartment, according to the footage.

" 'I'm just gonna say yes to all the questions to get the officers here faster,' " Ferragamo says, mocking the caller.

Cooke's unedited body camera footage was not released and his responses are inaudible.

As they approach the apartment, no sounds of fighting or loud noises are heard coming from the unit.

Moments later, Ferragamo knocks on the door, identifying himself as Phoenix police. The officers stand to either side of the door, making it impossible for anyone looking out of the peephole to see who was there.

Whitaker opens the door, with the gun in hand and rapidly takes a couple of steps out of the apartment as Ferragamo flashes a light in his face. Ferragamo greets Whitaker and then repeatedly yells, "Hands," according to the footage.

Whitaker is seen in the video starting to get on his knees, putting his left hand up and putting the gun behind his back when Cooke fires into Whitaker's back.

A slow-motion video, edited by the family lawyer, appears to show that Whitaker had put the gun down, Cunnigham said.

Whitaker then falls to the ground, writhing in pain and struggling to breathe
.

"Holy s--!" Ferragamo is heard saying in the video.

Seconds after the shooting, Whitaker's girlfriend, Brandee Nees walked out of the apartment screaming.

"Why did you guys shoot him?" Nees yelled.

Cooke responds, "He just pulled a gun on us, ma'am."

"Because it's dark and someone just knocked on the door," she yelled at Cooke.

Ferragamo then says, "It's OK." It's unclear if he says this to Cooke or Nees.

But, Nees yells, "It's not OK."

Whitaker is still on the ground in front of the door at this point. Neither officer has touched him.

Nees asks why they are there, and both officers tell her they received a call reporting a fight between them.

Nees tells officers that Whitaker had answered the door with a gun because a few days earlier Whitaker heard a knock on his door in the middle of the night, according to the video footage. When he peeked through the peephole, she says in the video, he noticed that whoever knocked was gone.

She tells Ferragamo that in another instance, a woman who used to live in the complex had knocked at Whitaker's door asking for help because she had gotten into a fight with her partner, the video footage shows.

She said that these two incidents had put Whitaker on alert about people knocking at his door in the middle of the night
.

Nees tells Ferragamo that Whitaker had gone to his daughter's high school graduation earlier that day. Whitaker returned to the apartment, where Nees was playing Crash Bandicoot on a Playstation game console.

Then they both played together and in the excitement of the game, they began to scream, she said, according to the video.

"Literally we were making salsa and playing Crash Bandicoot, so there may have been some screaming," she told the officer, according to the video. "It wasn't domestic violence or anything."

Ferragamo told her that that's how the call came in to 911 dispatchers.

In the video, Nees begs to be near Whitaker who can be heard on the video loudly taking his last breaths on the concrete floor outside the apartment door.

Nees, who is several feet away from Whitaker at this point, asks the officer if he could handcuff her so she could be near her boyfriend.

After the officer says no, she asks if Ferragamo could check if Whitaker was OK.

"I'm leaning toward the fact that he's not," Ferragamo responds
.

According to the police report, Cooke later that night told detectives that he shot Whitaker because he feared for his life. Ferragamo later tells another officer at the scene that he would have done the same, but didn't because Cooke did, according to the video footage and the police report.

Ferragamo said the shooting happened so fast that he didn't know if Whitaker was aware that Cooke was behind him, according to the video footage and the police report.

Whitaker's family, Cunnigham and advocates have demanded that the Police Department release unedited body camera footage from both of the officers and the 911 calls.

Cunnigham said that after viewing the 30-minute footage from Ferragamo, it reinforces to him that Whitaker was not a threat.

Critics have said that the YouTube videos the Police Department produces to update the public on police shootings, including this incident, only include selective information that helps justify the shooting.

Cunnigham also took issue with how Phoenix police portrayed the incident in a YouTube video. The video includes edited snippets of both officers' body cameras and not full recordings.

Police have said the videos are meant to inform the public and are not intended to make a determination about whether the shooting was justified.

Cunningham disagrees.

"They put a narrative out there designed to protect and defend an officer that overreacted," he said.

He said he wants the public to be aware of this case and hold the Police Department accountable.

"This is something that could happen to any of us," he said.

The Phoenix Police Department investigated the shooting and forwarded its findings to the Maricopa County Attorney's Office, where prosecutors will determine whether they will file criminal charges against Cooke.

Whitaker's shooting is one of 11 Phoenix police shootings so far in 2020, five of which were fatal. Through the first seven months last year, there were nine Phoenix police shootings.

Since the death of George Floyd, who died on May 25 after a Minneapolis police officer held him down with a knee on his neck, most police shootings and in-custody deaths in Phoenix and across the country have come under intense scrutiny.

For years, advocates have decried the high rate of police shootings in Phoenix and the state.

An Arizona Republic analysis of Phoenix police shootings from 2011 to 2018 found the Police Department outpaced similar-sized and larger cities.

Phoenix police, who serve a city with 1.6 million residents, had an average of 17 shootings per every 1 million residents in the eight-year span — more than New York, Los Angeles, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and San Diego.


(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/05/28/PPHX/41d772c4-b7c7-4afa-b1c0-462b887b27f5-Ryan_and_his_children.jpg?width=540&quality=100)
Ryan Whitaker, right, and his two children Taylor, middle, and Matthew celebrating his daughter's high school graduation
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2020, 11:52:37 AM
Cowards.
Might as well serve warrants by drone strike and pronounce the corpses guilty afterwards. At least that would be more honest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 11, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Gonna have to punish the perps if you want this sort of crime to be avoided in the future.  Officers with the potential to commit murder like this will quit the force in protest, so it's a win-win.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2020, 02:42:33 PM
Yet another person killed because they had a gun. Guns don't seem to do a very good job at providing personal protection.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 11, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2020, 02:42:33 PM
Yet another person killed because they had a gun. Guns don't seem to do a very good job at providing personal protection.

The cops were protected.

Far more people are killed by guns they own than by guns in the hands of others.  If you don't want to get shot, don't own a gun.  Even if you are the only inhabitant within miles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 11, 2020, 05:38:38 PM
Only bad people with guns are shot down. Good people with guns are protected by plot armor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 11, 2020, 10:08:48 PM
It's all because he forgot the magic words, "Back off! I feel threatened!".

To be clear, I'm mocking the fucking NRA here, not the poor guy that got killed for nothing in front of his girlfriend.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 11, 2020, 10:12:38 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 11, 2020, 10:08:48 PM
It's all because he forgot the magic words, "Back off! I feel threatened!".

To be clear, I'm mocking the fucking NRA here, not the poor guy that got killed for nothing in front of his girlfriend.

We had a guy in Austin get shot in a BLM protest because he was carrying his gun. The cops caught his murderer and let him off since he shot a guy with a gun. That kind of blew my mind. I guess if you have a gun anybody can gun you down and its ok.

At least if I do not have a gun my murderer might go to prison.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 11, 2020, 10:30:49 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 11, 2020, 05:38:38 PM
Only bad people with guns are shot down. Good people with guns are protected by plot armor.

Stand your ground.

That should have worked, since he was "white."  I dunno what went wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 10:54:46 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 11, 2020, 10:30:49 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 11, 2020, 05:38:38 PM
Only bad people with guns are shot down. Good people with guns are protected by plot armor.

Stand your ground.

That should have worked, since he was "white."  I dunno what went wrong.

A gun
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 10:55:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2020, 10:12:38 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 11, 2020, 10:08:48 PM
It's all because he forgot the magic words, "Back off! I feel threatened!".

To be clear, I'm mocking the fucking NRA here, not the poor guy that got killed for nothing in front of his girlfriend.

We had a guy in Austin get shot in a BLM protest because he was carrying his gun. The cops caught his murderer and let him off since he shot a guy with a gun. That kind of blew my mind. I guess if you have a gun anybody can gun you down and its ok.

At least if I do not have a gun my murderer might go to prison.

Wasn't that the guy who was talking about the people who oppose him(?) being "pussies" just before the protest, and then was caught in a photo possibly pointing it at the driver in the car? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 10:59:09 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 10:55:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2020, 10:12:38 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 11, 2020, 10:08:48 PM
It's all because he forgot the magic words, "Back off! I feel threatened!".

To be clear, I'm mocking the fucking NRA here, not the poor guy that got killed for nothing in front of his girlfriend.

We had a guy in Austin get shot in a BLM protest because he was carrying his gun. The cops caught his murderer and let him off since he shot a guy with a gun. That kind of blew my mind. I guess if you have a gun anybody can gun you down and its ok.

At least if I do not have a gun my murderer might go to prison.

Wasn't that the guy who was talking about the people who oppose him(?) being "pussies" just before the protest, and then was caught in a photo possibly pointing it at the driver in the car?
and

If so, he was a protestor and gets protestor qualified immunity of any fault he may have had. Like pointing a gun at someone. It was the other guys fault.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 11, 2020, 11:15:26 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 10:59:09 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 10:55:10 PM

Wasn't that the guy who was talking about the people who oppose him(?) being "pussies" just before the protest, and then was caught in a photo possibly pointing it at the driver in the car?
and

If so, he was a protestor and gets protestor qualified immunity of any fault he may have had. Like pointing a gun at someone. It was the other guys fault.

Except that's exactly what didn't happen. The guy who shot him got off without a warning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 11, 2020, 11:15:26 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 10:59:09 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 10:55:10 PM

Wasn't that the guy who was talking about the people who oppose him(?) being "pussies" just before the protest, and then was caught in a photo possibly pointing it at the driver in the car?
and

If so, he was a protestor and gets protestor qualified immunity of any fault he may have had. Like pointing a gun at someone. It was the other guys fault.

Except that's exactly what didn't happen. The guy who shot him got off without a warning.

So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 11, 2020, 11:31:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 11, 2020, 10:30:49 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 11, 2020, 05:38:38 PM
Only bad people with guns are shot down. Good people with guns are protected by plot armor.

Stand your ground.

That should have worked, since he was "white."  I dunno what went wrong.
It's inevitable.  Stand your ground, excessive prison sentences, roadside executions, all these policies have a goal, but they can only be so precise.  Sometimes a white guy is bound to be caught up in it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 11:33:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 11, 2020, 11:15:26 PM

Except that's exactly what didn't happen. The guy who shot him got off without a warning.

If it's the same guy, they arrested him (and someone else who shot at him as he drove away) and then let him (and the other guy) go when this picture came out:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/07/27/15/31251196-8563675-image-m-3_1595861974225.jpg)

E:  Also, they can still charge him if they want.  He's not just 100% off the hook because they initially released him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 11, 2020, 11:38:34 PM
What am I looking at?  I gather I should be focusing on something inside the red circle, but what exactly?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 11:41:57 PM
That guy with the hat on in the red circle is the one who got shot.  They're looking at (and I guess they've got some witness statements, for whatever that is worth) it to see if he was pointing it at the driver of that car when the driver shot him.  I think it's actually a still from a video, not just a photo.

E:  Also, rifle guy in the image did NOT shoot, from what I understand.  The driver shot him, then someone else in the crowd shot the car.  Like I said, they were both brought in and released.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:08:39 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 10:55:10 PM
Wasn't that the guy who was talking about the people who oppose him(?) being "pussies" just before the protest, and then was caught in a photo possibly pointing it at the driver in the car? 

Yep. I mean you can smear the guy all you want but he was still shot dead in public. Probably wouldn't have happened if he wasn't a guy who thought carrying guns around was a good idea.

QuoteE:  Also, they can still charge him if they want.  He's not just 100% off the hook because they initially released him.

I am not holding my breath.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:10:04 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 11, 2020, 11:41:57 PM
That guy with the hat on in the red circle is the one who got shot.  They're looking at (and I guess they've got some witness statements, for whatever that is worth) it to see if he was pointing it at the driver of that car when the driver shot him.  I think it's actually a still from a video, not just a photo.

E:  Also, rifle guy in the image did NOT shoot, from what I understand.  The driver shot him, then someone else in the crowd shot the car.  Like I said, they were both brought in and released.

Yeah once the guy in the car opened fire on the rifle dude somebody else started shooting. Which is a great and totally safe thing to have happen with a big crowd of people around. Glad we have all these self styled upholders of truth and justice around with their guns.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 12:25:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:08:39 AM
Yep. I mean you can smear the guy all you want but he was still shot dead in public. Probably wouldn't have happened if he wasn't a guy who thought carrying guns around was a good idea.

It's what he said.  He also said he wasn't going to shoot at the cops because they would kill him, and is a piece of shit online.  If you want to know about the driver, he's supposedly a furry and is also a piece of shit online.  I don't know anything about the second shooter, except he was some sort of medic type trying to save rifle guy's life after shooting at the car, so that guy might be least shitbaggy person directly involved. 

Quote
I am not holding my breath.

We'll see.  The still image starts to back up driver's story though, with that rifle at least pointing at the car/car door (which it'll send a bullet through with no problem).  If it's a video, it may show more. 

QuoteBut is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

There are dorks that walk around open carrying rifles all the time, and there's not a bunch of stories about them getting blown away at Walgreens or whatever.  Don't point guns at people, or anything, unless you intend to use it.  Don't even come close to it.  Doing that can make people think you're a threat to their lives, which, yeah, can pretty easily get you shot.  Especially in already tense situations.

And if you're accidentally pointing it at people somehow while out in public, you aren't responsible enough to be carrying it around.  Take it home and put it away.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:49:04 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 12:25:59 AMThere are dorks that walk around open carrying rifles all the time, and there's not a bunch of stories about them getting blown away at Walgreens or whatever.  Don't point guns at people, or anything, unless you intend to use it.  Don't even come close to it.  Doing that can make people think you're a threat to their lives, which, yeah, can pretty easily get you shot.  Especially in already tense situations.

And if you're accidentally pointing it at people somehow while out in public, you aren't responsible enough to be carrying it around.  Take it home and put it away.   

Which is exactly my point. Rifle guy readied his weapon thinking the driver was attacking the protest or something and let us just say he didn't provide much security.

But in any case this is the second case in this thread of guys pointing guns around and being shot for it. Just pointing out how those weapons are not, in fact, keeping them very safe.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:51:22 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 10:59:09 PM
If so, he was a protestor and gets protestor qualified immunity of any fault he may have had. Like pointing a gun at someone. It was the other guys fault.

I guess you are immune to much of everything after you are dead.

It wasn't the other guys fault he may or may not have pointed a gun at him. It is that he shot him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 12, 2020, 01:17:46 AM
What a uniquely american discussion  :alberta: :wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 01:18:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy link=topic=11783.msg1257886#msg1257886 date=
Which is exactly my point. Rifle guy readied his weapon thinking the driver was attacking the protest or something and let us just say he didn't provide much security.

But in any case this is the second case in this thread of guys pointing guns around and being shot for it. Just pointing out how those weapons are not, in fact, keeping them very safe.

In driver's case, I bet they're trying to figure out if he went down there to start some shit (due to stuff that he posted online), and then happened to find it. He could very easily go to jail for this.  Then again, they've also got to consider where that thing was pointing.

Regardless, there have been lots of protests and gatherings and such where people were open carrying and nothing happened at all.  Pointing them at people or playing with them while in a crowd is pretty different from just having them.  I personally think it would be irritating and inconvenient to be carrying a rifle around all day just to protest or whatever, but some people feel differently. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 12, 2020, 01:34:00 AM
Unless you're rich, white lawyers. Then you can point loaded guns at protesters with your finger on the trigger and the President will shill for you.  :smarty:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 01:37:40 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 01:18:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy link=topic=11783.msg1257886#msg1257886 date=
Which is exactly my point. Rifle guy readied his weapon thinking the driver was attacking the protest or something and let us just say he didn't provide much security.

But in any case this is the second case in this thread of guys pointing guns around and being shot for it. Just pointing out how those weapons are not, in fact, keeping them very safe.

In driver's case, I bet they're trying to figure out if he went down there to start some shit (due to stuff that he posted online), and then happened to find it. He could very easily go to jail for this.  Then again, they've also got to consider where that thing was pointing.

Regardless, there have been lots of protests and gatherings and such where people were open carrying and nothing happened at all.  Pointing them at people or playing with them while in a crowd is pretty different from just having them.  I personally think it would be irritating and inconvenient to be carrying a rifle around all day just to protest or whatever, but some people feel differently. 

I am not saying carrying a weapon is a death sentence, just that it seems safer not to have one.

There have been left wing militia types "providing security" in these protests. This guy wasn't a member of those but he was of that mind set.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 01:41:21 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 12, 2020, 01:34:00 AM
Unless you're rich, white lawyers. Then you can point loaded guns at protesters with your finger on the trigger and the President will shill for you.  :smarty:

They both got charged with felonies.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 01:54:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 01:37:40 AM
I am not saying carrying a weapon is a death sentence, just that it seems safer not to have one.

Sure, but that applies to a lot of actions/things/etc, so eh...make your choices and be a grownup about it.

QuoteThere have been left wing militia types "providing security" in these protests. This guy wasn't a member of those but he was of that mind set.

Yeah, it seems to be a thing, and I don't personally think it's a particularly good idea.  Too many amped up people and shit going on around you to be all geared up playing DEVGRU oper8or or whatever.  It's not up to me to make their choices for them though.  The guy with the Barrett in Virginia *did* make me laugh, just for the sheer ridiculous-ness of carrying something like that around.  The thing weighs like 30lbs just by itself, and it's not exactly conveniently sized.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

You tell me on the first question.

Accidentally? How does the other person know this?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 12, 2020, 09:03:40 AM
You don't point a gun at someone if you're not prepared to shoot him, unless you're insane (and that doesn't necessarily make you less threatening). Thankfully I never had to point a gun with live rounds at someone when I was in the Army.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

You tell me on the first question.

Accidentally? How does the other person know this?

So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 10:48:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

You tell me on the first question.

Accidentally? How does the other person know this?

So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?

What's their intentions?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 12, 2020, 10:56:23 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 01:41:21 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 12, 2020, 01:34:00 AM
Unless you're rich, white lawyers. Then you can point loaded guns at protesters with your finger on the trigger and the President will shill for you.  :smarty:

They both got charged with felonies.  ;)

I didn't say they didn't. :) I said that the President will shill for you, and he has.

That carries some weight when you're talking about the guy who can pardon everyone, including himself. ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on August 12, 2020, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 12, 2020, 10:56:23 AMI didn't say they didn't. :) I said that the President will shill for you, and he has.

That carries some weight when you're talking about the guy who can pardon everyone, including himself. ;)

If they hadn't been pointing guns at a group of people, no one would know who they are, including the president. If they were just standing out there holding them, it's a blip on Twitter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 12, 2020, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 12, 2020, 09:03:40 AM
You don't point a gun at someone if you're not prepared to shoot him, unless you're insane (and that doesn't necessarily make you less threatening).
Sure.  That goes for people who are trained in using a gun.  But in the US, just about anyone can get a gun.  You have a lot of untrained people with guns.  Jumpy people with gun who can barely handle it without shooting their foot.  Don't expect these people to keep calm and apply rational thought to any event.  They hear a noise and they point their rifle in that direction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 12, 2020, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 12, 2020, 09:03:40 AM
You don't point a gun at someone if you're not prepared to shoot him, unless you're insane (and that doesn't necessarily make you less threatening).
Sure.  That goes for people who are trained in using a gun.  But in the US, just about anyone can get a gun.  You have a lot of untrained people with guns.  Jumpy people with gun who can barely handle it without shooting their foot.  Don't expect these people to keep calm and apply rational thought to any event.  They hear a noise and they point their rifle in that direction.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 12, 2020, 10:53:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

You tell me on the first question.

Accidentally? How does the other person know this?

So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?
I'm not very good with guns, only basic training years ago and shot a few times (including a few times at Louisbourg with 18th century muskets!  :showoff: )
But if I have a rifle, and I'm in charge of security at a leftwing protest, I'm likely thinking anyone not in my crowd wants me dead, so if I see a gun raised, I shoot.
Or vice-versa: a far right winger with a gun seeing a leftist with a gun will shoot first and ask questions later.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 13, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
I'm still waiting on his clarifying answers to my questions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 13, 2020, 09:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 13, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
I'm still waiting on his clarifying answers to my questions.
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 10:48:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

You tell me on the first question.

Accidentally? How does the other person know this?

So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?

What's their intentions?

Is this your clarifying question? You don't know just some dude waiving his weapon around.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 13, 2020, 12:09:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?

If you have a reasonable fear for your life, yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 13, 2020, 12:11:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2020, 09:07:07 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 13, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
I'm still waiting on his clarifying answers to my questions.
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 10:48:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 11, 2020, 11:18:19 PM
So did he or didnt  point gun at someone? Trying to get the straight story.

It is a he said/he said type situation. Witnesses say he didn't, the shooter said the guy did. Probably not going to get a straight story.

But is pointing your weapon at somebody mean you are fair game to be killed? But if you did it accidentally?

You tell me on the first question.

Accidentally? How does the other person know this?

So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?

What's their intentions?

Is this your clarifying question? You don't know just some dude waiving his weapon around.

Your earlier question was about someone who has pointed a gun at someone else.  Now you seem to be moving the goalpost to "just some dude waiving his weapon around."  In the former, you can reasonably be in fear of imminent death, and can defend yourself.  In the latter case, you aren't and can't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 13, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 13, 2020, 12:09:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?

If you have a reasonable fear for your life, yes.

And what better way to instill fear, and put your life in danger, than carry a gun around?

That kind of proves my point really.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 13, 2020, 12:28:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 13, 2020, 12:09:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 12, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
So if somebody points a gun at you, you are just going to open up?

If you have a reasonable fear for your life, yes.

And what better way to instill fear, and put your life in danger, than carry a gun around?

That kind of proves my point really.

There's probably better ways to instill fear than pointing your gun at a stranger under conditions that make him or her believe that you intend to fire, but there aren't many such ways.

Carrying a weapon openly is going to help create those conditions of fear, but you can't legally be shot just for carrying and thus causing fear.  The threat must be imminent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2020, 01:24:50 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/politics/patricia-mark-mccloskey-rnc-st-louis-couple-guns-protesters/index.html

QuoteSt. Louis couple who pointed guns at protesters to speak at Republican convention
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 18, 2020, 01:52:42 AM
What a caricature the Gop has become. Forget the dog-whistle, it's a bullhorn.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 18, 2020, 02:08:22 AM
It is hard to see how there is anything worth saving in such a party.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 08:00:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2020, 01:24:50 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/politics/patricia-mark-mccloskey-rnc-st-louis-couple-guns-protesters/index.html

QuoteSt. Louis couple who pointed guns at protesters to speak at Republican convention

:wacko:

Sigh
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 13, 2020, 12:28:28 PM
There's probably better ways to instill fear than pointing your gun at a stranger under conditions that make him or her believe that you intend to fire, but there aren't many such ways.

Carrying a weapon openly is going to help create those conditions of fear, but you can't legally be shot just for carrying and thus causing fear.  The threat must be imminent.

Maybe carrying a gun might make somebody think the threat is imminent :hmm: That might be enough.

The distinction seems rather arbitrary.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 08:12:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

I have no idea who that is.

But this is very populist and shows how they are not for having better ideas for America but mobilizing their supporters against their ideological enemies: other citizens of the United States. People like me. Well how comforting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 18, 2020, 08:24:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

That one makes sense, in an opportunistic way. The gun-pointing lawyers, though... What's next, Robert Zimmerman?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 08:05:32 AM
Maybe carrying a gun might make somebody think the threat is imminent :hmm: That might be enough.

The distinction seems rather arbitrary.

The distinction is absolutely as arbitrary as any other motive, yet we've been using the "reasonable person" standard in criminal law for a long time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on August 18, 2020, 09:17:19 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

With all the Republicans worth listening to backing Biden or backing away from Trump, that is pretty much all they have left.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 18, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Just need some "very fine people" to talk about their Confederate "heritage" of Bedford Forrest statues and it will be complete.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 09:37:47 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

Given what they have to work with, the Republicans probably realize (now, as in every election since 2000) that they can't get elected based on "I'm better than my opponent," so they go for "my opponent is worse than me."

My real introduction to the modern Republican party occurred during the 2000 presidential primary.  I worked for the McCain campaign as a volunteer, and we were all gung-ho after winning New Hampshire handily.  Then, just before the South Carolina primary, the Bush campaign unloaded its bullshit dumpster, spreading claims that McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock (he and his wife had adopted a Bangladeshi orphan), that his Navy medical records were sealed because they showed that he'd been mentally disturbed since his POW days, and that his wife was unfit to become first lady because she was a drug addict.  All f this was disproven, but too late for the vote, and McCain lost South Carolina.  The Shrubbery denied any involvement in these smears, of course, but I don't think anyone believed them.  When McCain dropped out of the race, I dropped out of the Republican Party.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 09:37:47 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

Given what they have to work with, the Republicans probably realize (now, as in every election since 2000) that they can't get elected based on "I'm better than my opponent," so they go for "my opponent is worse than me."

My real introduction to the modern Republican party occurred during the 2000 presidential primary.  I worked for the McCain campaign as a volunteer, and we were all gung-ho after winning New Hampshire handily.  Then, just before the South Carolina primary, the Bush campaign unloaded its bullshit dumpster, spreading claims that McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock (he and his wife had adopted a Bangladeshi orphan), that his Navy medical records were sealed because they showed that he'd been mentally disturbed since his POW days, and that his wife was unfit to become first lady because she was a drug addict.  All f this was disproven, but too late for the vote, and McCain lost South Carolina.  The Shrubbery denied any involvement in these smears, of course, but I don't think anyone believed them.  When McCain dropped out of the race, I dropped out of the Republican Party.

Yeah I protest voted that year for Ralph Nader I was so mad, the only time I have ever protest voted. I was a big McCain supporter as well.

It was weird. Dubya never did that shit in Texas. It always hard to square the guy he was as governor, and the guy he seems to be now, with what he did as President and during his campaigns.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 10:46:56 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 18, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Just need some "very fine people" to talk about their Confederate "heritage" of Bedford Forrest statues and it will be complete.
In a weird way it feels like the sort of logical conclusion (not a conclusion) of the whole Joe the Plumber thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 10:40:31 AM
It was weird. Dubya never did that shit in Texas. It always hard to square the guy he was as governor, and the guy he seems to be now, with what he did as President and during his campaigns.

I think he was mixing with a different crowd as a presidential candidate and president.  He may have been personally decent, but his administration was a horror show.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 11:29:53 AM
I think he was mixing with a different crowd as a presidential candidate and president.  He may have been personally decent, but his administration was a horror show.
Yeah I often see people on the left being really angry with his sort of absolution post-Presidency into this nice painting man.

But I think in a way there's nothing more damning than the fact that this former President is entirely politically neutral. He has no influence on the Democrats and no influence on the Republicans. It's hard to imagine anyone announcing that they're receiving his advice in the way you might Bush I or Reagan or Clinton or Obama. It reminds me of Carter. His political legacy is so damaged that all you have left is that he's a fundamentally decent human being who does good charity work/paints pictures of veterans.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 18, 2020, 11:51:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 09:37:47 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

Given what they have to work with, the Republicans probably realize (now, as in every election since 2000) that they can't get elected based on "I'm better than my opponent," so they go for "my opponent is worse than me."

My real introduction to the modern Republican party occurred during the 2000 presidential primary.  I worked for the McCain campaign as a volunteer, and we were all gung-ho after winning New Hampshire handily.  Then, just before the South Carolina primary, the Bush campaign unloaded its bullshit dumpster, spreading claims that McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock (he and his wife had adopted a Bangladeshi orphan), that his Navy medical records were sealed because they showed that he'd been mentally disturbed since his POW days, and that his wife was unfit to become first lady because she was a drug addict.  All f this was disproven, but too late for the vote, and McCain lost South Carolina.  The Shrubbery denied any involvement in these smears, of course, but I don't think anyone believed them.  When McCain dropped out of the race, I dropped out of the Republican Party.


Yeah, that was absolute bullshit.  I voted for McCain.  I think that may have been my first election.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 18, 2020, 12:10:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 18, 2020, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 10:40:31 AM
It was weird. Dubya never did that shit in Texas. It always hard to square the guy he was as governor, and the guy he seems to be now, with what he did as President and during his campaigns.

I think he was mixing with a different crowd as a presidential candidate and president.  He may have been personally decent, but his administration was a horror show.

Herbert Walker was also decent but willing to use scummy operators like Atwater to get elected. He may have sought to govern through consensus but he got elected off of Willie Horton.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2020, 04:54:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 08:12:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Also speaking at the RNC - the student who went viral with the Native American protester.

Basically all grievances, all the time.

I have no idea who that is.

Sounds like that Catholic school kid in front of the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on August 18, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I've noticed hard right people seem to think the George Floyd bodycam footage completely backs up their side.
Any idea of their attempts at logic here?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 18, 2020, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 18, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I've noticed hard right people seem to think the George Floyd bodycam footage completely backs up their side.
Any idea of their attempts at logic here?
It all comes down to racial animus.

Don't think too hard about it
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2020, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 18, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I've noticed hard right people seem to think the George Floyd bodycam footage completely backs up their side.
Any idea of their attempts at logic here?

The relationship between resisting arrest and use of force by the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 18, 2020, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2020, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 18, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I've noticed hard right people seem to think the George Floyd bodycam footage completely backs up their side.
Any idea of their attempts at logic here?

The relationship between resisting arrest and use of force by the police.

You're thinking too hard!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 18, 2020, 09:47:29 PM
I don't think most people had a problem with him being subdued it was the whole suffocated for 8+ minutes thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 18, 2020, 10:29:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2020, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 18, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I've noticed hard right people seem to think the George Floyd bodycam footage completely backs up their side.
Any idea of their attempts at logic here?

The relationship between resisting arrest and use of force by the police.

My interpretation is that their argument is that if you don't comply with police orders and are not completely subservient, everything they do to you is your own fault. And if you've committed a crime or have prior convictions you have no rights anyways.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on August 18, 2020, 11:48:33 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 11:36:45 AM

But I think in a way there's nothing more damning than the fact that this former President is entirely politically neutral.

That is exemplary bahviour.  Not inteferring with the work of your successors, etc. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2020, 12:35:29 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on August 18, 2020, 11:48:33 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2020, 11:36:45 AM

But I think in a way there's nothing more damning than the fact that this former President is entirely politically neutral.

That is exemplary bahviour.  Not inteferring with the work of your successors, etc. 

Hell you probably think politics should be non-political.

But usually ex Presidents are brought out to help future Presidential nominees from their parties, not to interfere with the work of their successors typically. Most of politics has jack to do with the work of government or administrative policy :P

However the Republicans and their nominees do not bring Dubya out to help their cause...pretty damning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 19, 2020, 06:21:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 18, 2020, 10:29:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2020, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 18, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I've noticed hard right people seem to think the George Floyd bodycam footage completely backs up their side.
Any idea of their attempts at logic here?

The relationship between resisting arrest and use of force by the police.

My interpretation is that their argument is that if you don't comply with police orders and are not completely subservient, everything they do to you is your own fault. And if you've committed a crime or have prior convictions you have no rights anyways.

I think it would help to know who Tyr is talking about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 20, 2020, 04:29:47 PM
Not quite a BLM issue but this seemed like the most appropriate place for this story:
QuoteBelgian police officer made 'Nazi' salute in cell of man who died
Slovakian citizen Jozef Chovanec died after being held in cell at Charleroi airport in 2018

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f3d0557d88e989e738a06b77a498347da2883f5b/164_0_1525_915/master/1525.jpg?width=605&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=4241c069b11f2974b8853383a12ef7a7)
A video image shows a police officer apparently giving a Nazi salute while Jozef Chovanec was held down. Photograph: VRT
Jennifer Rankin in Brussels
Published on Thu 20 Aug 2020 19.17 BST

The Belgian government has been urged to investigate the death of a man in police custody after an officer sat on his rib cage for 16 minutes and another apparently made a Nazi salute.

Jozef Chovanec, a 38-year old Slovakian citizen, was arrested at Charleroi airport in February 2018 after causing a disturbance while boarding a flight to Bratislava. Taken to a cell, he started banging his head against a wall, causing bleeding.

On Wednesday video images emerged showing how he was pinned down in the cell by six police officers. One officer sat on his rib cage for 16 minutes, according to Het Laatse Nieuws, which obtained the footage.


The officers laughed "exuberantly" while one danced and made a Nazi salute, according to a doctor's report. A blanket was over Chovanec's face for some time. Chovanec died in hospital the following day.

His wife, Henrieta Chovancova, has said the killing of George Floyd in the US in May was reminiscent of her husband's death. "When [the police] saw the blood, they should have given him first aid. Instead they sat on him with so many people. He couldn't breathe properly," she said.


She fears the case is being covered up and has called for a new judge to be appointed.

A spokesperson for Charleroi's public prosecutor, which has been investigating the case for two and half years, told Belgian media there had been "a delay" because of the coronavirus pandemic, but said all the officers involved had been interviewed.

A police source told the regional paper Sudpresse that the officer who appeared to make the Nazi salute would be dismissed.

On Thursday the number two federal police official, André Desenfants, said he was temporarily leaving his post until an investigation had been carried out.

An autopsy found Chovanec had not taken drugs or alcohol, and his family do not know the reason for his behaviour at the airport. He commuted between Slovakia and Belgium, where he ran an agency recruiting Slovakian workers to work on construction sites.

On Thursday the mayor of Charleroi, Paul Magnette, called on the interior minister, Pieter De Crem, to examine the case. "I am, like so many people, shocked by the images in the press," tweeted Magnette, who is also leader of Belgium's francophone Socialist party. "This behaviour is unacceptable. As for the federal police, under the authority of the minister of interior I am asking the latter to do everything to shed light on these acts."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 21, 2020, 12:00:47 AM
It takes a special kind of people to be cops I guess.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 21, 2020, 01:16:40 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 21, 2020, 12:00:47 AM
It takes a special kind of people to be cops I guess.

Maybe.  The ability to have power over others can definitely attract the wrong type...but also as a society, we've generally have not given much value to the policeman as a profession to either hold the qualifications to a high standard (or perhaps, the right kind of standards), or make it such as to attract the right kind of applicant we would all like to see in that kind of position of authority.

Tied with that, my impression of the hiring process in most (US) jurisdictions is that the hiring/selection process is very insular to the relevant police department...in that they control it almost entirely in-house, allowing them to consciously or unconsciously choose applicants who are "like them", and thus perpetuating the cycle.  I tend to think a lot of ground could be made in taking police hiring completely or mostly outside of the police department itself. Or, if we'd like to have more citizen review...have applicants interviewed, and approved by a panel of citizens* of the relevant jurisdiction.



*Though my cynical self will tend to think those would end up being either filled mostly by jaded activists, busybodies, or go the way of jury pools...filled by a bunch of folks that don't really want to be there or the only people they could force to be there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 06:07:03 AM
Latest video from Kenosha is awful :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on August 24, 2020, 06:44:16 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 19, 2020, 06:21:04 AM]

I think it would help to know who Tyr is talking about.

Nobody here (I think?).
Just around social media you see it a fair bit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on August 24, 2020, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 06:07:03 AM
Latest video from Kenosha is awful :(

Apparently his kids were in the back of the car :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 24, 2020, 11:57:03 AM
Quote from: Maladict on August 24, 2020, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 06:07:03 AM
Latest video from Kenosha is awful :(

Apparently his kids were in the back of the car :(

Initial reports look grim. He was separating two women from fighting when the police arrived. How the hell did he end up getting shot? :blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on August 24, 2020, 02:36:52 PM
He ignored the cops and got into his car.

*edit* to clarify, not saying he deserved to get shot for doing that. its just the action that occurred leading to his getting shot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 24, 2020, 04:48:41 PM
The cop that shot him was yanking on his shirt from behind. It strikes me as a really bad time to be flailing around with a gun.

And why on earth was he even being addressed by the cops in the first place? He's trying to break up a fight, the cops arrive, and he tries to leave. What, did he get mouthy with the cop, so the cop got testy with him? Told him not to go anywhere?

I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how the guy was ever in any kind of trouble at all. Like, why did the cops even tell him not to leave? What was the cause for that?

Way more questions than answers right now, I guess. Have to let the investigation play out.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 24, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
I admit that I don't know a lot about how police are trained, or what they're taught regarding conflict resolution. So I have questions.

If it's determined that the major issue with why police respond with deadly force more often than we'd like is due to how they're trained, how long would it take for any real change to happen? For instance, I think the general sentiment is that police are taught to always be on the look out to avoid being shot, so they are always on the defense. If the training changes to more conflict resolution as the first and best option, how long before we would see the rewards of that training?

I mean, if cops are taught to always be on guard, a handful of classes on conflict resolution isn't going to fix that way of thinking in a week, a month, or even a year, I wouldn't think. We've been training our officers this way for decades. Seedy had talked about it from when he was on the force 30 years ago. On top of that, we've militarized them, which has also given them a defensive posture instead of a conciliatory one.

But it won't be fixed overnight. So what is enough now? What is the recommendation to get us over this hump and fewer people killed while this new training - assuming its implemented - actually impacts citizens?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 24, 2020, 10:37:00 PM
If you take all the necessary steps now, a culture change usually takes a generation, historically. So 20-30 years.

Good luck down there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 25, 2020, 03:52:53 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgN1g0JXoAAzs7b?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 25, 2020, 04:03:52 AM
What's kind of astonishing about that is there's no apparent impact of lockdown in most states in March/April which is weird because you'd expect that would have an impact on crime and just police/public interactions. So in South Africa, for example, they had fewer deaths than normal while they were in lockdown because of its effect on crime and violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 25, 2020, 04:33:24 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 24, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
I admit that I don't know a lot about how police are trained, or what they're taught regarding conflict resolution. So I have questions.

If it's determined that the major issue with why police respond with deadly force more often than we'd like is due to how they're trained, how long would it take for any real change to happen? For instance, I think the general sentiment is that police are taught to always be on the look out to avoid being shot, so they are always on the defense. If the training changes to more conflict resolution as the first and best option, how long before we would see the rewards of that training?

I mean, if cops are taught to always be on guard, a handful of classes on conflict resolution isn't going to fix that way of thinking in a week, a month, or even a year, I wouldn't think. We've been training our officers this way for decades. Seedy had talked about it from when he was on the force 30 years ago. On top of that, we've militarized them, which has also given them a defensive posture instead of a conciliatory one.

But it won't be fixed overnight. So what is enough now? What is the recommendation to get us over this hump and fewer people killed while this new training - assuming its implemented - actually impacts citizens?


Can't say that Seedy didn't see this coming.  He said those idiots would get him killed or in jail and he was 100%.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 25, 2020, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 25, 2020, 04:33:24 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 24, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
I admit that I don't know a lot about how police are trained, or what they're taught regarding conflict resolution. So I have questions.

If it's determined that the major issue with why police respond with deadly force more often than we'd like is due to how they're trained, how long would it take for any real change to happen? For instance, I think the general sentiment is that police are taught to always be on the look out to avoid being shot, so they are always on the defense. If the training changes to more conflict resolution as the first and best option, how long before we would see the rewards of that training?

I mean, if cops are taught to always be on guard, a handful of classes on conflict resolution isn't going to fix that way of thinking in a week, a month, or even a year, I wouldn't think. We've been training our officers this way for decades. Seedy had talked about it from when he was on the force 30 years ago. On top of that, we've militarized them, which has also given them a defensive posture instead of a conciliatory one.

But it won't be fixed overnight. So what is enough now? What is the recommendation to get us over this hump and fewer people killed while this new training - assuming its implemented - actually impacts citizens?


Can't say that Seedy didn't see this coming.  He said those idiots would get him killed or in jail and he was 100%.

Still his common line. He hates the whole system for exactly this reason.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 03:48:49 AM
Not the bestest of PR I guess:

(https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--hs6EjboX--/h_222,w_340/7Umc531V46BfNDFBs.jpeg)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/08/25/dc-protesters-blm-diner-confrontation/
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on August 26, 2020, 03:59:27 AM
Pff. Such idiots. Thats a few points for Trump
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 26, 2020, 04:26:43 AM
White allies...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 05:03:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 26, 2020, 04:26:43 AM
White allies...

TBF the article says some black lady asked the whites in the crowd to step out in front, but yeah this story and picture was like free Trump campaign ad work.


Meanwhile in Wisconsin 3 protesters shot each other following an altercation between them, one of them died. I guess a mob is a mob no matter what cause they gather for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 26, 2020, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 26, 2020, 03:59:27 AM
Pff. Such idiots. Thats a few points for Trump

Yup
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 26, 2020, 08:52:56 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 24, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
I admit that I don't know a lot about how police are trained, or what they're taught regarding conflict resolution. So I have questions.

If it's determined that the major issue with why police respond with deadly force more often than we'd like is due to how they're trained, how long would it take for any real change to happen? For instance, I think the general sentiment is that police are taught to always be on the look out to avoid being shot, so they are always on the defense. If the training changes to more conflict resolution as the first and best option, how long before we would see the rewards of that training?

I mean, if cops are taught to always be on guard, a handful of classes on conflict resolution isn't going to fix that way of thinking in a week, a month, or even a year, I wouldn't think. We've been training our officers this way for decades. Seedy had talked about it from when he was on the force 30 years ago. On top of that, we've militarized them, which has also given them a defensive posture instead of a conciliatory one.

But it won't be fixed overnight. So what is enough now? What is the recommendation to get us over this hump and fewer people killed while this new training - assuming its implemented - actually impacts citizens?

FWIW I have a friend (ex Israeli army) who used to do non-lethal training with local PDs.  His impression is that some cops were quick to pull the firearm because they lacked confidence in their physical ability to control a situation without quickly escalating to the threat of lethal force.

To be fair it is not an easy job.  However, the simple truth is that the job is protecting the public and that public includes suspects.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 05:03:12 AM

Meanwhile in Wisconsin 3 protesters shot each other following an altercation between them, one of them died. I guess a mob is a mob no matter what cause they gather for.
Are you talking about the militia member who shot 3 protesters?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 11:30:44 AM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 05:03:12 AM

Meanwhile in Wisconsin 3 protesters shot each other following an altercation between them, one of them died. I guess a mob is a mob no matter what cause they gather for.
Are you talking about the militia member who shot 3 protesters?

Actually yes. I made the mistake of reading a Hungarian news about it which was translated in a very retarded way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(

Or at least felt like his life was on the line, which is probable in a situation like that.

The whole situation is disastrous. Decades of unaddressed problems coming home to roost.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:47:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 26, 2020, 04:26:43 AM
White allies...

They've been a nightmare throughout this whole thing in Portland. My friends who have been marching downtown have said that every fire set, every bottle thrown at police, all began with white allies. It's only a handful of witnesses, but it's still rather damning, and agrees with the independent reporters who've been there since the beginning.

It seems that white people really have no idea how to just take a fucking back seat and let others drive the bus. I don't even know how to apologize anymore. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 11:48:34 AM
There is really no point in apologizing on behalf of other people who aren't sorry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:49:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(

Or at least felt like his life was on the line, which is probable in a situation like that.

The whole situation is disastrous. Decades of unaddressed problems coming home to roost.

When a guy is trying to stomp your head into the pavement, I think it's safe to say your life is on the line.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 11:55:18 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:49:32 AM
When a guy is trying to stomp your head into the pavement, I think it's safe to say your life is on the line.

Sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:49:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(

Or at least felt like his life was on the line, which is probable in a situation like that.

The whole situation is disastrous. Decades of unaddressed problems coming home to roost.

When a guy is trying to stomp your head into the pavement, I think it's safe to say your life is on the line.

And honestly, we've seen what happens in those situations. People have died, or been grievously injured.

I wonder if this will push the militia away, or make them come out in force now. If they do, it's going to get uglier before it gets better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
But what if your life is on the line because you shot someone in the head moments before?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:58:13 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
But what if your life is on the line because you shot someone in the head moments before?

Is that what happened? I haven't read the reports.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:00:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:47:13 AM


It seems that white people really have no idea how to just take a fucking back seat and let others drive the bus. I don't even know how to apologize anymore. :(

Why would you have to apologise? If we went around apologising for everyone of our skin colour doing something bad we would have time for nothing else, and that includes all possible skin colours.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:58:13 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
But what if your life is on the line because you shot someone in the head moments before?

Is that what happened? I haven't read the reports.
You can't be 100% sure so soon after the incident, especially given the lack of neutral observers, but from what I understand, he shot a guy in the head in the car dealership.  Afterwards the crowd gave chase to catch the shooter, and that's where that footage with him falling and shooting starts.  One of the dead was already shot in the head before the camera starts rolling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 11:48:34 AM
There is really no point in apologizing on behalf of other people who aren't sorry.

Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:00:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:47:13 AM


It seems that white people really have no idea how to just take a fucking back seat and let others drive the bus. I don't even know how to apologize anymore. :(

Why would you have to apologise? If we went around apologising for everyone of our skin colour doing something bad we would have time for nothing else, and that includes all possible skin colours.

I have a number of friends of color who are directly involved with the protests. They talk about the problems they're facing, and I feel obligated to apologize for the idiots of my race who are making a mess of things. Maybe I shouldn't, but it feels like the right thing to do under the circumstances.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 12:29:54 PM
A whole other angle to this story is open complicity of police with the militia.  It scares me that they're not afraid to be open like that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:00:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:47:13 AM


It seems that white people really have no idea how to just take a fucking back seat and let others drive the bus. I don't even know how to apologize anymore. :(

Why would you have to apologise? If we went around apologising for everyone of our skin colour doing something bad we would have time for nothing else, and that includes all possible skin colours.

Whiteness seems to be the new original sin.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(


If he was trying to get away from them why did he show up with a rifle?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:04:35 PM
I have a number of friends of color who are directly involved with the protests. They talk about the problems they're facing, and I feel obligated to apologize for the idiots of my race who are making a mess of things. Maybe I shouldn't, but it feels like the right thing to do under the circumstances.

I do to and I understand the desire to apologize but remember you really have no ability to apologize on behalf of people who are probably not sorry. Being sympathetic is another thing. We are all sorry for these issues inflicting these communities, but that is different from apologizing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:00:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 11:47:13 AM


It seems that white people really have no idea how to just take a fucking back seat and let others drive the bus. I don't even know how to apologize anymore. :(

Why would you have to apologise? If we went around apologising for everyone of our skin colour doing something bad we would have time for nothing else, and that includes all possible skin colours.

Whiteness seems to be the new original sin.

That's bullshit. But whatever.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
Whiteness seems to be the new original sin.

I rather think it is more like identifying that way so somehow feeling part of a group of people just because they kind of look like you. I think we all do it to some extent, even when we rationally know that is misplaced.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:42:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(


If he was trying to get away from them why did he show up with a rifle?

Because they were chasing him and trying to get his rifle?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:43:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
Whiteness seems to be the new original sin.

I rather think it is more like identifying that way so somehow feeling part of a group of people just because they kind of look like you. I think we all do it to some extent, even when we rationally know that is misplaced.

It's more that whiteness is no longer being allowed to be the default, and that's insulting to many whites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:43:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:42:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(


If he was trying to get away from them why did he show up with a rifle?

Because they were chasing him and trying to get his rifle?

:hmm:

They chased him from his house to the protests to get his rifle? :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:45:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
That's bullshit. But whatever.

Okay, maybe you're not one of them but I keep hearing from a lot of woke people that all white people are racist (and fragile, I guess).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:43:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:42:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(


If he was trying to get away from them why did he show up with a rifle?

Because they were chasing him and trying to get his rifle?

:hmm:

They chased him from his house to the protests to get his rifle? :huh:

No.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 12:47:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:42:43 PM
Because they were chasing him and trying to get his rifle?

If he was just walking around minding his own business and mob attacked him to grab his rifle that would indeed be a bad situation.

But I don't know how much of the context we know, or what everybody agrees on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:48:58 PM
I know that's not how Meri means it but it is kind of racist to consider her black friends and whites as separate group to the extent that she feels obliged to apologise on behalf of her group.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 26, 2020, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
That's bullshit.

Yes. So don't fucking apologize on behalf of your race.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 26, 2020, 12:53:49 PM
It does appear from multiple reports that the video of rifle guy running down the street occurred after victim 1 was shot in the head.

What is not yet clear is the circumstances of victim 1's shooting - was he shot because in the process of allegedly committing acts of vandalism of property or because he directly threatened the shooter or was some other circumstance at play?

Either way I concur with what I presume is Raz's point: that it is a bad idea for armed vigilantes to take to the streets in response to a "call to arms".  It sucks that there are acts of vandalism going on but vigilantism is not the answer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:45:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
That's bullshit. But whatever.

Okay, maybe you're not one of them but I keep hearing from a lot of woke people that all white people are racist (and fragile, I guess).

It's pretty much impossible to grow up in the United States and not be racist. Unconscious bias, at the absolute minimum, should be a given for every white person in the US. And being challenged on that has shown a hell of a lot of fragile egos, yes.

Again, back to showing that whites are no longer allowed to be the default causing issues for some of those whites.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:48:58 PM
I know that's not how Meri means it but it is kind of racist to consider her black friends and whites as separate group to the extent that she feels obliged to apologise on behalf of her group.

Is it racist to understand that each group of friends are living a very different reality?

I'd think it would be more generous to say, "I get that I don't fully understand what you have to deal with, but I do recognize that people of my race are making things more difficult for you, and for that, I'm sorry."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:45:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
That's bullshit. But whatever.

Okay, maybe you're not one of them but I keep hearing from a lot of woke people that all white people are racist (and fragile, I guess).

It's pretty much impossible to grow up in the United States and not be racist. Unconscious bias, at the absolute minimum, should be a given for every white person in the US. And being challenged on that has shown a hell of a lot of fragile egos, yes.

I think the issue is that there are many who don't agree with the first assertion...but their disagreement, even if honest and well intentioned (e.g. not just a "nuh uh") is simply dismissed as a "fragile egos", and any attempt at honest debate is then pretty much shut down.

And when the potential for honest debate is shut down...well, here we all are.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
It's pretty much impossible to grow up in the United States and not be racist. Unconscious bias, at the absolute minimum, should be a given for every white person in the US. And being challenged on that has shown a hell of a lot of fragile egos, yes.

I think the issue is that there are many who don't agree with the first assertion...but their disagreement, even if honest and well intentioned (e.g. not just a "nuh uh") is simply dismissed as a "fragile egos", and any attempt at honest debate is then pretty much shut down.

And when the potential for honest debate is shut down...well, here we all are.

That's fair. Honest debate is a lost art across many of these discussions at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:11:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
It's pretty much impossible to grow up in the United States and not be racist. Unconscious bias, at the absolute minimum, should be a given for every white person in the US. And being challenged on that has shown a hell of a lot of fragile egos, yes.

I think the issue is that there are many who don't agree with the first assertion...but their disagreement, even if honest and well intentioned (e.g. not just a "nuh uh") is simply dismissed as a "fragile egos", and any attempt at honest debate is then pretty much shut down.

And when the potential for honest debate is shut down...well, here we all are.

That's fair. Honest debate is a lost art across many of these discussions at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.

Obviously everything in these arguments are far more nuanced than even I laid out...but the way our society seems to work today, no one wants to take the time to sit down and honestly explore/discuss those nuances.  Too many people see to just to want to have their simple arguments/answers and to blow sirens in each others faces, chant simplistic slogans, or carry around a rifle and wear a MAGA hat.

I am just about ready to retire and find a secluded cabin out in the wilderness or an an island somewhere.  Or maybe just live on a boat.  :sleep:  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:11:49 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
It's pretty much impossible to grow up in the United States and not be racist. Unconscious bias, at the absolute minimum, should be a given for every white person in the US. And being challenged on that has shown a hell of a lot of fragile egos, yes.

I think the issue is that there are many who don't agree with the first assertion...but their disagreement, even if honest and well intentioned (e.g. not just a "nuh uh") is simply dismissed as a "fragile egos", and any attempt at honest debate is then pretty much shut down.

And when the potential for honest debate is shut down...well, here we all are.

That's fair. Honest debate is a lost art across many of these discussions at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.

Obviously everything in these arguments are far more nuanced than even I laid out...but the way our society seems to work today, no one wants to take the time to sit down and honestly explore/discuss those nuances.  Too many people see to just to want to have their simple arguments/answers and to blow sirens in each others faces, chant simplistic slogans, or carry around a rifle and wear a MAGA hat.

I am just about ready to retire and find a secluded cabin out in the wilderness or an an island somewhere.  Or maybe just live on a boat.  :sleep:  :P

We should talk about those boat houses. I've been on one, and even looked at them once. There are concerns with living on one, but I'm sure you're aware. :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 26, 2020, 01:20:50 PM
Kenosha shooter in custody.  Apparently 17 yo kid from Illinois. Wisconsin has requested extradition on a 1st degree homicide charge.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:18:13 PM

We should talk about those boat houses. I've been on one, and even looked at them once. There are concerns with living on one, but I'm sure you're aware. :D

Yeah, I am pretty skeptical about floating homes...in this particular reference, I am referring to an actual boat...just cruising around the planet in splendid isolation.  :P




Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:45:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
That's bullshit. But whatever.

Okay, maybe you're not one of them but I keep hearing from a lot of woke people that all white people are racist (and fragile, I guess).

Eh it is...complicated. But the fragility part comes from taking all this stuff personally.

While I have lots of woke people in my social circles I have never explicitly heard the "all white people are racist" thing though sometimes somebody will say something really idiotic. Granted maybe the ones who DO think all white people are racists may just not want to spend time with the likes of me :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 01:30:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:05:03 PM
That's fair. Honest debate is a lost art across many of these discussions at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.

Honest debate requires agreed upon premises and terms. Those are hard to find these days. You can spend hours and hours just talking past each other even when both sides are sincere.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 01:32:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
Eh it is...complicated. But the fragility part comes from taking all this stuff personally.

Of course, when it comes to debate on topics like race, or gender issues as well, it is hard, if not impossible, for things NOT to be taken personally.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 01:49:34 PM


https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xg8pxj/a-17-year-old-aspiring-cop-has-been-charged-with-murder-in-kenosha?utm_source=vicenewsfacebook&fbclid=IwAR0GS0xCOOrkI8yAtqVhFzFYaotTWfeHzfx2K6yYiTiYYywrpON_DI8AlwU


QuoteA 17-year-old aspiring cop has been arrested and charged with first-degree murder for his alleged role in a shooting during a protest in Kenosha, Wisconsin, on Tuesday night that left two dead and one injured.

The suspect was identified as Kyle Rittenhouse, of Lake County, Illinois. Prosecutors in Lake County filed the charges at noon Wednesday, and labelled him a fugitive who "fled the state of Wisconsin with intent to avoid prosecution for that offense."

Tuesday was the third consecutive night of angry protests in Kenosha since police shot Jacob Blake, a Black man, leaving him paralyzed.

Rittenhouse, clad in a green t-shirt, a cap emblazoned with an American flag, and carrying an assault rifle, was seen on video at various points of the night. In several graphic videos, he's seen opening fire on protesters; one was shot in the head, another in the chest. The victim who survived was shot in the arm.

While it's not immediately clear why Rittenhouse, a former police cadet, was at the protest, his social media indicates an affiliation with "Back the Blue," a pro-police movement. In recent months, pro-cop vigilantes have been showing up heavily armed at protests across the country to defend public property, often warmly received by local law enforcement.

Police interacted with the alleged gunman at various locations in Kenosha throughout the night. In one video, Rittenhouse is seen chatting with police who gave him a bottle of water and thanked him for being there.

He was also seen in the vicinity of a group of armed militiamen, who had tasked themselves with protecting a gas station from damage. Kenosha County Sheriff David Beth acknowledged their presence in an interview with Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, but said he wasn't sure if the suspected shooter was affiliated with them.

The shooting started around 11.30 p.m., hours after the curfew, when a heated confrontation broke out between protesters and the militia men near the gas station. Around that same time, gunshots rang out by an auto-body shop, a few blocks away.

Video shows a group of people running down the street, including the man in the green t-shirt who appears to be being chased. He and his pursuer briefly disappear behind parked cars and then gunshots are heard. "He's got a gun, he shot him," the person recording the video is heard saying. Other videos from the scene suggest that there may have been additional gunfire from another direction.

Video shows protesters surrounding the victim, who is lying on the ground between two cars. Multiple people are using their phones as flashlights, trying to figure out where he's been shot. "In his head, in his head — put pressure on it — put pressure, come on," one woman says, while holding his head near a bullet wound and telling him "keep your eyes open."

Video from another angle shows the man in the green t-shirt standing there, on the phone. "I've just killed somebody," he says into his phone, as he starts to move away.

Soon after, another video shows a crowd chasing the suspect down the street. "What did he do?" someone asks. "He shot someone!" someone else replies. The man appears to trip and fall. Two protesters run towards him, he sits up and shoots them both. One person lies motionless in the street. "Medic!" someone in the crowd cries out.

That victim survived and was seen later being treated for a bullet wound in his arm.

The apparent shooter, meanwhile, was seen on video walking away from the scene — his AR-style rifle clearly visible, his hands above his head. But Kenosha police who were responding to the reports of gunfire showed no interest in arresting or even questioning the man.

Instead, they asked him for directions. "Is someone injured, straight ahead?" an officer asks him via loudspeaker.

"Get out of the road," said another.

He even approached an idling police car, going up close to the window, but then appeared to change his mind and walked away.

Brent Ford, 24, a photographer, witnessed the entire scene. "He had his hands up and they told him to get out of there, even though everyone was yelling that he was the shooter," Ford told VICE News. "The police didn't seem to hear or care what the crowd was saying."

Ford said many in the crowd were armed — not just the militiamen who were standing guard outside a nearby gas station. For example, members of the Socialist Rifle Association, an armed leftist gun group, were present. Other protesters had pistols in holsters. "I had kinda gotten the feeling the police were overwhelmed and didn't really know what they were doing most of the night," said Ford.

Ford had also observed that the militiamen seen earlier appeared to be getting special treatment from the police. "One of the police in the Bearcat was yelling over the LRAD [a speaker system] for everyone, press and protesters to disperse," said Ford. "I noticed that group of armed, I guess militia or citizens, at the gas station behind the police lines weren't getting told to leave the area, and it kind of struck me as weird."

The shooter has meanwhile been hailed as a "hero" by the far-right. "That boy is a patriot," one person wrote on the imageboard 4chan. "Well he became a man today, that's for sure," another commented.

[/quote]

So, not quite like a Zombie movie, is it?  Well, it looks like we have person to give a speech at the RNC tonight.  I did see the video.  A guy murders two people, wounds another and walks right past the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 01:53:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:48:58 PM
I know that's not how Meri means it but it is kind of racist to consider her black friends and whites as separate group to the extent that she feels obliged to apologise on behalf of her group.

Is it racist to understand that each group of friends are living a very different reality?

I'd think it would be more generous to say, "I get that I don't fully understand what you have to deal with, but I do recognize that people of my race are making things more difficult for you, and for that, I'm sorry."

It is just my impression that apologies like that say "you are one group me and the other whites are another". Which is pretty much what the racists are saying except they feel superior for it while you feel guilty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 02:00:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 01:30:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 01:05:03 PM
That's fair. Honest debate is a lost art across many of these discussions at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.

Honest debate requires agreed upon premises and terms. Those are hard to find these days. You can spend hours and hours just talking past each other even when both sides are sincere.
I think another issue is the desire to see the worst in people who don't completely agree with you.  What seems to happen is that people start off knowing which side of the scales should win, and then everyone contributing any argument at all to the losing side of the scales is immediately the enemy of the people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 26, 2020, 02:05:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
Whiteness seems to be the new original sin.

I rather think it is more like identifying that way so somehow feeling part of a group of people just because they kind of look like you. I think we all do it to some extent, even when we rationally know that is misplaced.

I don't know that many people who look like me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 02:10:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 26, 2020, 02:05:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
Whiteness seems to be the new original sin.

I rather think it is more like identifying that way so somehow feeling part of a group of people just because they kind of look like you. I think we all do it to some extent, even when we rationally know that is misplaced.

I don't know that many people who look like me.

What about all the people in Gujarat? :hmm:

(Wasn't that where you used to tell people you were from? :P)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 01:53:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 26, 2020, 12:48:58 PM
I know that's not how Meri means it but it is kind of racist to consider her black friends and whites as separate group to the extent that she feels obliged to apologise on behalf of her group.

Is it racist to understand that each group of friends are living a very different reality?

I'd think it would be more generous to say, "I get that I don't fully understand what you have to deal with, but I do recognize that people of my race are making things more difficult for you, and for that, I'm sorry."

It is just my impression that apologies like that say "you are one group me and the other whites are another". Which is pretty much what the racists are saying except they feel superior for it while you feel guilty.

It's a statement of fact. Black Americans do not have the same life experiences that I do, and not for the better. Acknowledging that reality seems appropriate, especially when discussing things like BLM.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 02:17:06 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 02:14:47 PM
It's a statement of fact. Black Americans do not have the same life experiences that I do, and not for the better. Acknowledging that reality seems appropriate, especially when discussing things like BLM.

Well that is true and a good point, but that strikes me as different than you needing to be responsible for what other white people do.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 02:17:30 PM
One of the odd paradoxes of modern policing: Police open fire on citizens when the officer feels that their lives are in mortal danger such as seeing a person with their hand within a foot of their waistband. Police do not fire on large numbers of angry protesters openly displaying military firearms.  Conclusion:  Police are comforted by the appearance of angry militiamen.  If you wish to put police at ease you should show up with large groups of men with military grade weaponry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:21:55 PM
Well, as some have been saying...like likes like.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.

Well that pretty much happened in Austin, we had leftwing militias "protecting" the protestors.

Needless to say I don't think they were actually making anything more secure.

In Texas even the leftists open carry  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 02:47:40 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.

Yep, one of these days the rooters might get violent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 02:47:40 PM
Yep, one of these days the rooters might get violent.

If they start approaching the level of violence that's been thrown at them it will get a lot uglier.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 02:47:40 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.

Yep, one of these days the rooters might get violent.

Well the trick is to keep that violence at a minimum. The overwhelming majority of people do not want violence.

The best solution is, of course, to find ways to stop the protests from starting in the first place. I told you back in 2016 that if this issue of unconstitutionally depriving people of their lives without due process by agents of the state was not handled it would be enormously socially destabilizing. Well here we are and any time this country wants to get serious about this core issue and not just try to deal with the symptoms would be great. It is unlikely to get much better.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:56:23 PM
This is starting to feel more and more like Jefferson might have been right about that Tree of Liberty thing.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on August 26, 2020, 02:56:28 PM
Shooter killed a white guy, he's screwed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 02:57:14 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 26, 2020, 02:56:28 PM
Shooter killed a white guy, he's screwed.

The dude in Austin killed a white guy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 26, 2020, 02:59:46 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:

Well you cannot prove any one person ISN'T Antifa.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:

Seedy has already called that Trump will give the kid a pardon regardless of any court outcome. He's probably right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 26, 2020, 03:49:27 PM
Secondhand Seedy just isn't the same.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 03:52:58 PM
At least you didn't go with Seedy Seconds.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:

Seedy has already called that Trump will give the kid a pardon regardless of any court outcome. He's probably right.

He is definitely wrong. While there could be federal tack on crimes, murder is almost always charged as a state crime. Trump can't use the power of the pardon to get someone out of state convictions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 04:06:33 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:

Seedy has already called that Trump will give the kid a pardon regardless of any court outcome. He's probably right.

He is definitely wrong. While there could be federal tack on crimes, murder is almost always charged as a state crime. Trump can't use the power of the pardon to get someone out of state convictions.

This could be deemed a Federal case because the kid crossed state lines to get away. He's being extradited back to Wisconsin.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 04:06:33 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:

Seedy has already called that Trump will give the kid a pardon regardless of any court outcome. He's probably right.

He is definitely wrong. While there could be federal tack on crimes, murder is almost always charged as a state crime. Trump can't use the power of the pardon to get someone out of state convictions.

This could be deemed a Federal case because the kid crossed state lines to get away. He's being extradited back to Wisconsin.

Wisconsin has charged him with first degree murder. Trump can't pardon him for that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 26, 2020, 04:21:46 PM
I mean the police description of this seems weird:
QuoteKenosha Police Chief Daniel Miskinis confirmed that a 17-year-old Antioch resident has been charged in a shooting incident and said that the man "was involved in the use of firearms to resolve whatever conflict was in place."
:mellow:

Edit: If nothing else it is an outstanding use of the passive voice.

Also is there no chance this would be considered terrorism. It feels like turning up at a political demonstration and shooting people sort of could be?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 04:34:41 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 04:06:33 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
According to the current political arithmetic...not if the killed white guy is found to be Antifa.  :sleep:

Seedy has already called that Trump will give the kid a pardon regardless of any court outcome. He's probably right.

He is definitely wrong. While there could be federal tack on crimes, murder is almost always charged as a state crime. Trump can't use the power of the pardon to get someone out of state convictions.

This could be deemed a Federal case because the kid crossed state lines to get away. He's being extradited back to Wisconsin.

Wisconsin has charged him with first degree murder. Trump can't pardon him for that.

A guy killed a Chinese national student in Illinois. He was initially charged with first degree murder in Illinois. It became a Federal case because he used a car during the crime, and was moved to a federal case so that the death penalty was an option.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying that we don't know yet how this will play out on many levels. The kid can only be pardoned by Trump if Trump wins and they change the venue. What makes you think that Trump won't push them to change the venue to a federal crime?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on August 26, 2020, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 04:34:41 PM
A guy killed a Chinese national student in Illinois. He was initially charged with first degree murder in Illinois. It became a Federal case because he used a car during the crime, and was moved to a federal case so that the death penalty was an option.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying that we don't know yet how this will play out on many levels. The kid can only be pardoned by Trump if Trump wins and they change the venue. What makes you think that Trump won't push them to change the venue to a federal crime?

So if under some theory he gets charged with a federal crime, the feds get first dibs on the trial, and Trump gives him a full pardon, then the dude has to go face state murder charges in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on August 26, 2020, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 26, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
Saw a video of a dude with an AR that was getting rushed by rioters, almost like a zombie movie.  They had him on the ground and one rioter went to jump kick him.  Looks like he was a bit panicky with the shots he got off, but I guess his own life was on the line at that point.  Looked like he had been trying to get away from them.

Ugly situation :(
why does this take from you not surprise me in the least?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 26, 2020, 07:22:36 PM
And if the 17 y/o kid carrying an assault rifle would have never been there, folks would not be dead. He put into motion and set the stage for that event by putting himself in a situation he should have never been allowed to be in. His parents should be jailed right along with him.


Property can be replaced.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 26, 2020, 07:33:09 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 26, 2020, 07:22:36 PM
And if the 17 y/o kid carrying an assault rifle would have never been there, folks would not be dead. He put into motion and set the stage for that event by putting himself in a situation he should have never been allowed to be in. His parents should be jailed right along with him.


Property can be replaced.

:hug:

Thank you for saying that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 26, 2020, 08:50:45 PM
What did the parents do?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 08:51:54 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.


Yeah, that's what's happening.  There have been several cases now of left-wing protesters carrying fire arms.  You come unarmed, the police will beat the shit out of you.  You come armed, the police back off.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 08:51:54 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.


Yeah, that's what's happening.  There have been several cases now of left-wing protesters carrying fire arms.  You come unarmed, the police will beat the shit out of you.  You come armed, the police back off.
Seems like a dangerous move, though.  It's one thing to be armed when police understands that you're their vigilante backup, it's another thing to be a bad guy with a gun.  It's hard enough to posthumously defend your innocence against police shooting when you're unarmed, with a gun on you police or militia can shoot you at their discretion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 26, 2020, 09:11:34 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 26, 2020, 08:50:45 PM
What did the parents do?

Let their murderous child own an AR-15 and transport it across state lines in order to commit murder.

Actually, they should be jailed just for being the kind of parents who bring up a child like that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 26, 2020, 09:19:19 PM
We need to have the Black panthers start open-carrying in every state, like they did in California in 1967.  The Panthers created an alliance between Ronald Reagan, the NRA, California democrats, and California republicans, to get a bill outlawing open carry.  The bill took less than 16 weeks to pass both houses of the legislature by 5:1 margins and get signed into law. 

"[I see] no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" - Ronald Reagan.

Black Panthers, come save us now!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 26, 2020, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 26, 2020, 08:51:54 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 26, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
A lot more protesters are going to get that takeaway and start showing up armed and/or taking proactive measures against right-wing militias that show up armed.


Yeah, that's what's happening.  There have been several cases now of left-wing protesters carrying fire arms.  You come unarmed, the police will beat the shit out of you.  You come armed, the police back off.
Seems like a dangerous move, though.  It's one thing to be armed when police understands that you're their vigilante backup, it's another thing to be a bad guy with a gun.  It's hard enough to posthumously defend your innocence against police shooting when you're unarmed, with a gun on you police or militia can shoot you at their discretion.


That's the amazing thing! One black guy who might have a gun is terrifying.  They have to shoot because they fear for their lives. If 100 black guys show up with enough weapons to wipe out the entire police department the cops are inexplicably put at ease.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 27, 2020, 06:14:24 AM
https://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/1298774196026322946?s=20
"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 27, 2020, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 26, 2020, 09:19:19 PM
We need to have the Black panthers start open-carrying in every state, like they did in California in 1967.  The Panthers created an alliance between Ronald Reagan, the NRA, California democrats, and California republicans, to get a bill outlawing open carry.  The bill took less than 16 weeks to pass both houses of the legislature by 5:1 margins and get signed into law. 

"[I see] no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" - Ronald Reagan.

Black Panthers, come save us now!

:lol: amazing

In that vein, BLM protests should start shouting climate change is a lie. USA would be zero emissions in 5 years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 27, 2020, 06:47:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2020, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 26, 2020, 09:19:19 PM
We need to have the Black panthers start open-carrying in every state, like they did in California in 1967.  The Panthers created an alliance between Ronald Reagan, the NRA, California democrats, and California republicans, to get a bill outlawing open carry.  The bill took less than 16 weeks to pass both houses of the legislature by 5:1 margins and get signed into law. 

"[I see] no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" - Ronald Reagan.

Black Panthers, come save us now!

:lol: amazing
Yeah it made me think of the pictures like this:
(https://cropper.watch.aetnd.com/cdn.watch.aetnd.com/sites/2/2018/05/GettyImages-514875628.jpg)

And I think there were also examples of people standing with a gun next to the police whenever the police were, say, pulling over a black person in a black neighbourhood.

I swear I've seen a documentary with something about this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on August 27, 2020, 07:34:58 AM
Accelerationism woo
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 27, 2020, 09:09:15 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 27, 2020, 06:14:24 AM
https://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/1298774196026322946?s=20
"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"

No surprise the fascists want to call out the freikorps for some good old fashioned murder of fellow citizens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on August 27, 2020, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 27, 2020, 06:47:56 AM
Yeah it made me think of the pictures like this:
(https://cropper.watch.aetnd.com/cdn.watch.aetnd.com/sites/2/2018/05/GettyImages-514875628.jpg)


The guy on the right with the M1 carbine (?) out-cools Samuel L.Jackson, he should have been in Hollywood.

The guy on the left is mearly, common or garden 60s cool.  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 27, 2020, 09:53:53 AM
Tucker Carlson: "Are we really surprised that looting and arson accelerated to murder? How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"

Source: https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1298776744854302721?s=20
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on August 27, 2020, 12:19:39 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2020, 09:53:53 AM
Tucker Carlson: "Are we really surprised that looting and arson accelerated to murder? How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"

Source: https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1298776744854302721?s=20

Sheilbh beat you tot he punch.  :P

I wonder if, at some point, Fox and/or their pundits will be held accountable for their role in stoking the flames.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 27, 2020, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 27, 2020, 12:19:39 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2020, 09:53:53 AM
Tucker Carlson: "Are we really surprised that looting and arson accelerated to murder? How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"

Source: https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1298776744854302721?s=20

Sheilbh beat you tot he punch.  :P

I wonder if, at some point, Fox and/or their pundits will be held accountable for their role in stoking the flames.

:lol: :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on August 27, 2020, 12:34:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 27, 2020, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 27, 2020, 06:47:56 AM
Yeah it made me think of the pictures like this:
(https://cropper.watch.aetnd.com/cdn.watch.aetnd.com/sites/2/2018/05/GettyImages-514875628.jpg)


The guy on the right with the M1 carbine (?) out-cools Samuel L.Jackson, he should have been in Hollywood.

The guy on the left is mearly, common or garden 60s cool.  :)

Samuel L Jackson was actually tangentially involved with the Black Panthers and other Black Power movements in the late 60s, even getting a criminal record for his worries:

QuoteAfter Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination in 1968, Jackson attended King's funeral in Atlanta as one of the ushers. He then travelled to Memphis, Tennessee, to join an equal rights protest march. In a 2005 Parade interview, he revealed, "I was angry about the assassination, but I wasn't shocked by it. I knew that change was going to take something different – not sit-ins, not peaceful coexistence." In 1969, Jackson and several other students held members of the Morehouse College board of trustees (including Martin Luther King Sr.) hostage on the campus, demanding reform in the school's curriculum and governance. The college eventually agreed to change its policy, but Jackson was charged with and eventually convicted of unlawful confinement, a second-degree felony. He was then suspended for two years for his criminal record and his actions. He would later return to the college to earn a BA in drama in 1972. While he was suspended, he took a job as a social worker in Los Angeles. He decided to return to Atlanta, where he met with Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, and others active in the Black Power movement. He began to feel empowered with his involvement in the movement, especially when the group began buying guns. However, before he could become involved with any significant armed confrontations, his mother sent him to Los Angeles after the FBI warned her that he would die within a year if he remained with the group. In a 2018 interview with Vogue, he denied having been a member of the Black Panther Party.

There are plenty of pictures from the Sacramento incident which feature the guy with the sunglasses and beret, always indeed looking very cool and blacksplotation-ish.

(https://thepigeonpress.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BLACK-PANTHER.jpg)

(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/73/03/31/15480412/5/rawImage.jpg)

(https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTU3ODc4NTk4NjgyMjIzOTQ1/image-placeholder-title.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY_JWy1XsAAufJR.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 27, 2020, 05:39:48 PM
:lol:

And there's God's fuck you to the Confederacy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/us/hurricane-laura-damaged-confederate-monument-trnd/index.html

QuoteHurricane Laura's howling winds in Louisiana tore through roofs, shattered windows and forced thousands of people to seek shelter. The hurricane also toppled a controversial Confederate monument in the heart of downtown Lake Charles.

Just two weeks ago, the Calcasieu Parish Police Jury voted 10-4 to keep the South's Defenders Monument in place in front of the Calcasieu Parish Courthouse.
But Laura -- with sustained winds of 150 mph when it made landfall early Thursday morning -- knocked the 105-year-old statue off its base.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 27, 2020, 06:18:48 PM
Woah, WTF, did we discuss this one from four months ago: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-teenager-was-fatally-shot-while-running-away-duty-officer-n1238455?

How do you have a strong self-defense case when shooting someone who is at a distance and running away from you in the back?  Strong enough to not even bother with prosecution?  Maybe there needs to be a way to make these kinds of cases federal crimes, just like hate crimes, so that the shooters can be brought to justice (and maybe accessory after the fact DAs for that matter).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2020, 07:36:29 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 27, 2020, 06:18:48 PM
Woah, WTF, did we discuss this one from four months ago: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-teenager-was-fatally-shot-while-running-away-duty-officer-n1238455?

How do you have a strong self-defense case when shooting someone who is at a distance and running away from you in the back?  Strong enough to not even bother with prosecution?  Maybe there needs to be a way to make these kinds of cases federal crimes, just like hate crimes, so that the shooters can be brought to justice (and maybe accessory after the fact DAs for that matter).

I imagine that it would be hard to get a jury to convict a man for firing at someone whom he suspects just committed a felony and who has now burst into the man's own yard.

The case sucks and it's hard, knowing all the facts, to justify self-defense in any way, but Manning's lawyer could certainly make the case for reasonable doubt.

The fact that Manning was an off-duty officer had nothing to do with the case. 

The Jacob Blake case provides a much better example (or George Floyd, for that matter) of cases that could easily be made federal as hate crimes or deliberate denial of civil rights.  A guy standing in his own home shooting an intruder, not so much.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 27, 2020, 10:10:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2020, 07:36:29 PM
The fact that Manning was an off-duty officer had nothing to do with the case. 
I think it has something to do with it, although it is impossible to prove.  Manning was not on duty, so he was acting as a private citizen, but at the same time he was not on the civilian side of the thin blue line.  It would be safe to assume that whatever "professional courtesy" is extended to cops that kill would probably be extended to him as well.  By virtue of being an officer he was probably less likely to be charged, and if charged less likely to be prosecuted in good faith.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 28, 2020, 04:38:35 AM
So several people are pointing out that papers rarely do this much work distancing young black men from crime:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Egfnf_yUcAExGyv?format=jpg&name=small)
This is from a UK paper, of course.

But the other point I find striking is I've seen lots about the shooter and very little about the victims. I worry there's a sort of copycat/inspiration risk here especially because he was 17 - a bit like how there's been studies linked to one school shooting being followed by others. There are lots of recommendations to avoid this, largely about the media coverage things like: don't dramatise it, don't make the shooter into some kind of anti-hero, focus on the victims. I understand a similar approach is recommended after terrorist attacks to really try and avoid people being "inspired by". It feels like something that we have slowly been improving at in the last few years.

But none of that seems to be happening here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2020, 05:11:26 AM
Yeah it is rather disgusting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 28, 2020, 10:01:24 AM
Teenage spree killer murders two; is defended by the Times.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
"Rejected destitute Austrian art student and decorated veteran finds purpose as political leader in Germany"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 28, 2020, 10:32:15 AM
People, it's The Times. I always just go to page 3.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 28, 2020, 10:40:56 AM
What...do they have topless Tories there or something?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2020, 07:36:29 PM
The Jacob Blake case provides a much better example (or George Floyd, for that matter) of cases that could easily be made federal as hate crimes or deliberate denial of civil rights. 
my understanding of the case is that Blake was told to stop multiple times, 2 officers fired their tasers at him, and he kept going for his car where a knife was seen (and found).

unless the knife was planted there after the fact by the officers (unlikely, since he did say he had a knife), I don't see how it can be a hate crime at this point.  Maybe there's other evidences not referred by Wikipedia?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 28, 2020, 09:23:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
my understanding of the case is that Blake was told to stop multiple times, 2 officers fired their tasers at him, and he kept going for his car where a knife was seen (and found).

unless the knife was planted there after the fact by the officers (unlikely, since he did say he had a knife), I don't see how it can be a hate crime at this point.  Maybe there's other evidences not referred by Wikipedia?

Blake was shot in the back six times.  Whether police had fired tasers at his back before then is not relevant.  whether there was a knife in his car is not relevant.  At the time he was assaulted, he posed no threat to anyone.  The officers could not have been in fear of their life given that his back was turned to them.  Police had no reason to believe that he had committed a crime, nor that he was going to commit a felony unless the police used deadly force.  So, the deadly force was not justified.  If you want to weasel about whether it was a "hate crime" or merely unprovoked attempted murder, please do so elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2020, 09:23:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
my understanding of the case is that Blake was told to stop multiple times, 2 officers fired their tasers at him, and he kept going for his car where a knife was seen (and found).

unless the knife was planted there after the fact by the officers (unlikely, since he did say he had a knife), I don't see how it can be a hate crime at this point.  Maybe there's other evidences not referred by Wikipedia?

Blake was shot in the back six times.  Whether police had fired tasers at his back before then is not relevant.  whether there was a knife in his car is not relevant.  At the time he was assaulted, he posed no threat to anyone.  The officers could not have been in fear of their life given that his back was turned to them.  Police had no reason to believe that he had committed a crime, nor that he was going to commit a felony unless the police used deadly force.  So, the deadly force was not justified.  If you want to weasel about whether it was a "hate crime" or merely unprovoked attempted murder, please do so elsewhere.
There was a warrant for his arrest, and there had been a complaint he did not belong there.

Shooting 6-7 times in the back is certainly excessive, but if the officer tells you "STOP" and "DROP THE KNIFE" and you're still, apparently, reaching for it, there maybe a reasonable doubt here.  And the other officers tased, or tried to tased him while facing him.

All I'm saying is, with the evidence I have seen right now, I don't see it as a slam dunk for a hate crime, as you suggested.

We'll just see how that goes with the investigation before jumping to conclusion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2020, 10:39:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2020, 09:23:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
my understanding of the case is that Blake was told to stop multiple times, 2 officers fired their tasers at him, and he kept going for his car where a knife was seen (and found).

unless the knife was planted there after the fact by the officers (unlikely, since he did say he had a knife), I don't see how it can be a hate crime at this point.  Maybe there's other evidences not referred by Wikipedia?

Blake was shot in the back six times.  Whether police had fired tasers at his back before then is not relevant.  whether there was a knife in his car is not relevant.  At the time he was assaulted, he posed no threat to anyone.  The officers could not have been in fear of their life given that his back was turned to them.  Police had no reason to believe that he had committed a crime, nor that he was going to commit a felony unless the police used deadly force.  So, the deadly force was not justified.  If you want to weasel about whether it was a "hate crime" or merely unprovoked attempted murder, please do so elsewhere.
There was a warrant for his arrest, and there had been a complaint he did not belong there.

Shooting 6-7 times in the back is certainly excessive, but if the officer tells you "STOP" and "DROP THE KNIFE" and you're still, apparently, reaching for it, there maybe a reasonable doubt here.  And the other officers tased, or tried to tased him while facing him.

All I'm saying is, with the evidence I have seen right now, I don't see it as a slam dunk for a hate crime, as you suggested.

We'll just see how that goes with the investigation before jumping to conclusion.
Cops yell that shit all the time to people they know are unarmed so it sounds good on the cameras.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 28, 2020, 11:34:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Shooting 6-7 times in the back is certainly excessive,

Yes that is the entire point. I don't really get the argument here. Should the police have taken some action? Yes. But the Constitution says that people are not to be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. You gotta be really fucking sure you just saved somebody's life before you violate somebody's constitutional rights as an agent of the government.

Now even if they are not guilty of murder I would hope the person who made that call is recognized as being unfit to serve as a law enforcement officer.

Also you have to recognize the many many many decades this issue has been a subject of discussion. Many people are not really interested in giving these cops the benefit of the doubt after so much time. That adds a whole new layer of danger, as you are helping to spread civil unrest and pubic disorder everytime you make the decision to use your weapon against an unarmed civilian. Such police officers are a public menace.

Does this happen much in Quebec that suspects get shot multiple times in the back?



Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 29, 2020, 05:20:44 AM
At least the NY Post is fair and balanced.

(https://i.redd.it/q95mjl1gftj51.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 29, 2020, 05:25:23 AM
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/514216-teen-who-organized-black-lives-matter-rally-gets-2500-bill-from-mayor-for

QuoteWoman who organized Black Lives Matter rally gets $2500 bill from mayor for police overtime costs

A New Jersey 18-year-old has been billed nearly $2,500 in police overtime costs after she organized a Black Lives Matter rally in her town over affordable housing.

NJ Advance Media first reported on the woman, Emily Gil, who said she got the bill earlier this month from Englewood Cliffs Mayor Mario M. Kranjac for $2,499.26 "for the police overtime caused by your protest."

Gil said she held the protest because the city has "dodged affordable housing requirements for 40-plus years," calling it "unacceptable."

According to the report, she received a letter alongside her bill that said because she did not meet with city officials before holding the protest, they had to scramble to find police to work overtime for the event.

But Gil says she did not want to meet in person over coronavirus concerns and her offer for a virtual meeting with officials was rejected. She also alleges that city officials stopped responding to her communications and she still hasn't heard from the mayor after also reaching out to him about the bill.

Gil said only 30 or 40 people joined the rally, which was peaceful and caused no disturbances. She says protesters also picked up their trash.

She told the outlet she also reached out to the local police chief about the overtime bill. Englewood Cliffs Police Chief William Henkelman responded that he had complained to the mayor of the additional staffing needed and "extensive preparation."

Kranjac told NJ Advance Media that protesters' First Amendment rights were fully respected by the city and police, but slammed Gil over her comments on affordable housing.

"Ms. Gil is misinformed when she links our affordable housing issues with her protest, and she is wrong when she writes that I voted against affordable housing," the mayor told the publication. "Everyone is welcome in Englewood Cliffs."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
In just a few hours, that murderer got 140k from fellow fascists for his legal defense, on a Christian social funding site.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 29, 2020, 01:28:58 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
There was a warrant for his arrest, and there had been a complaint he did not belong there.

Those are pretty thin grounds for you to justify homicide.  Can police shoot anyone six times in the back if there is a warrant out for their arrest, or they believe that "there had been a complaint he did not belong there?"  The society you propose is going to be far more violent than any in the world today.

QuoteShooting 6-7 times in the back is certainly excessive, but if the officer tells you "STOP" and "DROP THE KNIFE" and you're still, apparently, reaching for it, there maybe a reasonable doubt here.  And the other officers tased, or tried to tased him while facing him.

There is no room for reasonable doubt here, since no one was in peril of their life, and the police had no reason to believe that Blake would commit a violent felony if he were allowed to get into his car.  The video I saw had the officers shooting him in the back with their tasers.  Where do you get the information that he was facing them when tased, and how does your source square that claim with the video?

QuoteAll I'm saying is, with the evidence I have seen right now, I don't see it as a slam dunk for a hate crime, as you suggested.

We'll just see how that goes with the investigation before jumping to conclusion.

All I can say is that, with the evidence I see right now, I don't see it as a slam dunk that the officers involved are innocent, as you suggested.

Instead, I'll just see how the investigation goes with  before jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 29, 2020, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2020, 10:39:40 PM
Cops yell that shit all the time to people they know are unarmed so it sounds good on the cameras.
I'm not saying they were justified to shoot him seven times in the back.

But if a cop yells you to stop, to drop the knife, you gotta stop and show your empty hands.  By now, everyone should know American cops tend to be trigger happy, and they feel threatened by black men, so they really should be extra careful when dealing with the police, until such time as there can be a comprehensive reform of police work.

Now, the issue is: can they be convicted on a hate crime based on the evidence presented.  My non lawyer answer is that it's doubtful.  But maybe there is other evidence.  Maybe Wikipedia has something wrong (my only source on the matter). Maybe there are facts unknown/unreleased to the public.  Maybe part of what happenned was staged by the cops so they could look good.  That's all a lot of "maybe" at this point.

One thing is certain: if a cop yells at me to stop and/or to drop the knife, I am stopping and showing my hands.  Maybe I'll get shot anyway.  But at least, it would make it clear I wasn't a threat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2020, 01:51:30 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 28, 2020, 10:39:40 PM
Cops yell that shit all the time to people they know are unarmed so it sounds good on the cameras.

This is a fantastically wacky thing to say.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 29, 2020, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 28, 2020, 11:34:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Shooting 6-7 times in the back is certainly excessive,

Yes that is the entire point. I don't really get the argument here. Should the police have taken some action? Yes. But the Constitution says that people are not to be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. You gotta be really fucking sure you just saved somebody's life before you violate somebody's constitutional rights as an agent of the government.

Now even if they are not guilty of murder I would hope the person who made that call is recognized as being unfit to serve as a law enforcement officer.

Also you have to recognize the many many many decades this issue has been a subject of discussion. Many people are not really interested in giving these cops the benefit of the doubt after so much time. That adds a whole new layer of danger, as you are helping to spread civil unrest and pubic disorder everytime you make the decision to use your weapon against an unarmed civilian. Such police officers are a public menace.
Well, my point was that it's difficult to convict this officer of an hate crime in this particular situation.  Even attempted murder would be a stretch, imho, since he had a knife and was looking like he was reaching for it and refused to stop when told to.

What you and I think is irrelevent, it's what his lawyer will make the jury believe that counts.

Quote
Does this happen much in Quebec that suspects get shot multiple times in the back?
rarely.  They are usually shot from the front while charging the officers.  People with mental health issues are the problem :(  I mean, it's problematic that they are most likely to be shot when confronted by the police, even when they were called to insure their security.  Police are ill equipped to deal with these cases.

Also, on indian reservations, encounters have a higher likelyhood of getting fatal.  Alcohol/drugs, mental health issues, guns everywhere*.  Bad combo :(


* (despite the laws, and despite what well meaning city folks think, guns are a reality once you get out of "civilization" ;) )
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2020, 05:20:44 AM
At least the NY Post is fair and balanced.

I suppose you think it's actually fair and balanced when most of the media defended Trayvon, and now is demonizing Kyle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
In just a few hours, that murderer got 140k from fellow fascists for his legal defense, on a Christian social funding site.

He's not a murderer or a fascist, and I hope he get's even more money and support.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:20:37 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2020, 05:20:44 AM
At least the NY Post is fair and balanced.

I suppose you think it's actually fair and balanced when most of the media defended Trayvon, and now is demonizing Kyle.

Well Trayvon didn't kill anybody, I don't really see how the two situations demand equal treatment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
In just a few hours, that murderer got 140k from fellow fascists for his legal defense, on a Christian social funding site.

He's not a murderer or a fascist, and I hope he get's even more money and support.

Is killing American citizens just fine and alright now? I am just so baffled by the "American citizens who are killed deserve it" attitude I keep seeing.

I guess if that is the new expectation I should adjust my attitude accordingly.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 29, 2020, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:20:37 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2020, 05:20:44 AM
At least the NY Post is fair and balanced.

I suppose you think it's actually fair and balanced when most of the media defended Trayvon, and now is demonizing Kyle.

Well Trayvon didn't kill anybody, I don't really see how the two situations demand equal treatment.

^this
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:20:37 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2020, 05:20:44 AM
At least the NY Post is fair and balanced.

I suppose you think it's actually fair and balanced when most of the media defended Trayvon, and now is demonizing Kyle.

Well Trayvon didn't kill anybody, I don't really see how the two situations demand equal treatment.

They probably don't, but it was Syt who brought it up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:28:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
In just a few hours, that murderer got 140k from fellow fascists for his legal defense, on a Christian social funding site.

He's not a murderer or a fascist, and I hope he get's even more money and support.

Is killing American citizens just fine and alright now? I am just so baffled by the "American citizens who are killed deserve it" attitude I keep seeing.

I guess if that is the new expectation I should adjust my attitude accordingly.

Self defense is acceptable, whether the assailants are American citizens or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:28:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
In just a few hours, that murderer got 140k from fellow fascists for his legal defense, on a Christian social funding site.

He's not a murderer or a fascist, and I hope he get's even more money and support.

Is killing American citizens just fine and alright now? I am just so baffled by the "American citizens who are killed deserve it" attitude I keep seeing.

I guess if that is the new expectation I should adjust my attitude accordingly.

Self defense is acceptable, whether the assailants are American citizens or not.

This wasn't fucking self defense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:55:32 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:28:30 PM
Self defense is acceptable, whether the assailants are American citizens or not.

Sure and if he was acting in self defense that will be born out in trial. At least he is actually getting a trial.

But that fact is not established.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
This wasn't fucking self defense.

Yes it fucking was.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 03:55:32 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 03:28:30 PM
Self defense is acceptable, whether the assailants are American citizens or not.

Sure and if he was acting in self defense that will be born out in trial. At least he is actually getting a trial.

But that fact is not established.

Okay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
This wasn't fucking self defense.

Yes it fucking was.

Maybe #2 and #3 were. Vigilante mobs are bad. But auto dealerships don't fall under self-defense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 29, 2020, 06:22:11 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
This wasn't fucking self defense.

Yes it fucking was.

Maybe #2 and #3 were. Vigilante mobs are bad. But auto dealerships don't fall under self-defense.
I would think it would be all or nothing.  You don't get to claim self-defense because people are trying to stop you after murdering someone.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 29, 2020, 06:28:10 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 29, 2020, 06:22:11 PM
I would think it would be all or nothing.  You don't get to claim self-defense because people are trying to stop you after murdering someone.
Yeah it's like that shooting/terrorist attack in London where the guy got chased by someone with a Narwhal tusk. He doesn't get to claim GBH because he got hurt by the Narwhal tusk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:42:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 29, 2020, 06:22:11 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
This wasn't fucking self defense.

Yes it fucking was.

Maybe #2 and #3 were. Vigilante mobs are bad. But auto dealerships don't fall under self-defense.
I would think it would be all or nothing.  You don't get to claim self-defense because people are trying to stop you after murdering someone.

Is he trying to kill more people or to flee?

People taking it on themselves to be police is a dangerous situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 29, 2020, 06:44:59 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:42:05 PM
People taking it on themselves to be police is a dangerous situation.
Do Americans have like the trope of "have a go heroes"?

Examples are the guy with the Narwhal tusk, or the guy at Glasgow airport who kicked a terrorist in the bollocks so hard he tore a tendon in his foot :lol:

Also isn't it part of the argument for people having guns, that they can protect themselves from crime?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:57:19 PM
We invented Batman. Doesn't mean people should emulate him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 29, 2020, 07:02:52 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:57:19 PM
We invented Batman. Doesn't mean people should emulate him.
But that's a vigilante. This is more people just stopping a crime they see happening - tripping up a thief, chasing a terrorist with ivory, kicking them in the balls. It's the old idea the public are the police and the police are the public.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 07:03:13 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:36 PM
Okay.

Yep. The fact that there will be a trial will help establish the facts.

However, I am a little uncomfortable with some people rushing to pick up the bill.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 07:32:40 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 29, 2020, 07:02:52 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:57:19 PM
We invented Batman. Doesn't mean people should emulate him.
But that's a vigilante. This is more people just stopping a crime they see happening - tripping up a thief, chasing a terrorist with ivory, kicking them in the balls. It's the old idea the public are the police and the police are the public.

Well, I did say maybe. It's my impression there was a pursuit?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 29, 2020, 07:40:45 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:42:05 PM
Is he trying to kill more people or to flee?

People taking it on themselves to be police is a dangerous situation.
That's just one of the lunacies of the gun fetish ideology.  Pretty soon after the shooting starts no one will have a solid idea of which guy with the gun is the good guy and which one with the gun is the bad guy.  They just know whether a guy with a gun is shooting at other guys with a gun, go figure out whether pulling the trigger will be defending an innocent or murdering an innocent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 08:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
This wasn't fucking self defense.

Yes it fucking was.


You can't argue self-defense while committing another crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 29, 2020, 09:29:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 08:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 29, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
This wasn't fucking self defense.

Yes it fucking was.


You can't argue self-defense while committing another crime.
And it's just a bad idea regardless.  Finish the crime first, then argue self-defense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 09:52:54 PM
Well, the crime was illegally carrying the weapon...

The kid involved seems to have become a conservative hero.  That is troubling.  It's the first time a teenage mass shooter has gotten political support.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 29, 2020, 10:15:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 29, 2020, 07:03:13 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 29, 2020, 05:38:36 PM
Okay.

Yep. The fact that there will be a trial will help establish the facts.

However, I am a little uncomfortable with some people rushing to pick up the bill.
yeah, all I saw was a 3 second clip of a walking black guy getting shot.  it does not tell me much.  I'm guessing we'll see more with the trial.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 12:39:24 AM
Shooting in Portland. Patriot Prayer group drove through downtown during the BLM protests. Looks like one of the PP boys was shot in the chest. The guy was shot on the corner of my old office building.

This is going to get uglier before it gets prettier.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/29/blm-activists-counterprotesters-clash-portland-leading-arrests/

QuoteOne person is dead after a shooting in downtown Portland Saturday night following skirmishes between pro-Trump and Black Lives Matter protesters, the department confirmed in a statement.

A man was seen with a gunshot wound laying motionless on the ground in the area near where the opposing groups had fought and where mace had been deployed. Police and emergency medical vehicles surrounded the man. That in turn amplified tensions among protesters as police attempted to secure the area in a busy part of the riot-stricken city.

"Portland Police officers heard sounds of gunfire from the area of Southeast 3rd Avenue and Southwest Alder Street," the Portland Police Bureau said in a statement. "They responded and located a victim with a gunshot wound to the chest. Medical responded and determined that the victim was deceased."

Police did not release information on a suspect.

Earlier in the evening, skirmishes between pro-Trump rallygoers and BLM supporters in downtown Portland left multiple people injured. The sparring groups threw punches at one another and hurled debris between vehicles, and some groups broke into open fighting in the street. Trump supporters in trucks were at one point blocked in by the Black Lives Matter activists, and began exiting their vehicles, precipitating the violence.

Blood was streaming down the face of one Trump supporter who had challenged an activist to a fight.

Tony Bartell, 26, of Vancouver, Wash., said one of the Trump rallygoers punched him after jumping out of a vehicle. Bartell had photographed his license plate, agitating a man.

"While he's in my face and I'm recording him, someone else comes up behind me and smacks my phone on the ground," he said. He said he was hit in the face and shaken up.

Earlier in the evening, activists met Trump supporters, some of them armed, who were waving flags and driving pickups on a highway on-ramp leading to Interstate 5.

The Black Lives Matter activists initially blocked traffic onto the highway as some yelled "Just go home!" and "Don't come to our city!" Others urged restraint, yelling, "Don't give them a reason!" They apparently were trying to ensure that a vehicle would not charge into the activists.

A small fight broke out at the head of the on-ramp before police arrived moments later and separated the groups, which had gathered earlier in the day at a shopping center just outside Portland. Police were seen making multiple arrests.

The truck-driving Trump supporters, some armed, planned to follow a highway route around the city, according to a route map posted on social media.

The groups were separated after skirmishes broke out, and they began hurling obscenities at each other from opposite sides of the highway.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 30, 2020, 12:42:50 AM
Man this is all going in a bizarre and disastrous direction.

This is Wiemar Germany shit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 01:58:35 AM
There's video of the shooting. Looks like the Patriot Prayer guy sprayed mace and then was shot for it. If you listen, someone says, "We've got one right here," before the mace is sprayed and the guy is shot.

Warning: very graphic video

https://twitter.com/TowelieTrades/status/1299931680447377408?s=20

A bit of background,  these guys have been coming over to Portland from the Washington side of the Columbia for several years. The guy who stabbed several people on the Max was a PP guy. They've been aggressive and have multiple arrests for it. They are a known risk to people in Portland.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 30, 2020, 10:25:55 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgrAKZfXsAE3DXX?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgrAKZfXgAEaa2d?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgrAKZhWkAAwxfY?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 10:29:09 AM
"GREAT PATRIOTS"...

They're white supremacists. :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 09:52:54 PM
Well, the crime was illegally carrying the weapon...

The kid involved seems to have become a conservative hero.  That is troubling.  It's the first time a teenage mass shooter has gotten political support.

So you're certain he had no right to self defense?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 09:52:54 PM
Well, the crime was illegally carrying the weapon...

The kid involved seems to have become a conservative hero.  That is troubling.  It's the first time a teenage mass shooter has gotten political support.

So you're certain he had no right to self defense?

Does the guy who shot the Prayer Patriots guy in Portland get the same assumption of innocence from you?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 11:27:52 AM
Haven't looked at that yet. And in the Kenosha case I'm just going by what I saw in the videos and the time line that NYT put together.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 30, 2020, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
So you're certain he had no right to self defense?
Based on the information I've seen - that he shot at people and is then mobbed, I don't know that self-defence is the right way of looking at it.

I'd almost flip it so we look at what are the limits of the people doing the mobbing. I don't think it's entirely the same as self-defence, but it feels like it's a sort of similar test could be applied (in England I think it's did the person genuinely think they were under threat and was their response reasonable) for people getting involved in stopping a crime.

So if I see someone mugging an old lady and decide to get involved (in reality - this would catastrophically for me), I think what matters is whether I am reasonable in stopping that mugging. Pinning someone against the ground - reasonable; kicking their head in - not. I've no idea if that's actually the law, but to me it feels weird to think of the self-defence rights of people committing crimes as opposed to the sort of limits on people trying to stop them.

Interested to see BBoy's take.

Edit: Actually just looked this up from an English perspective and this guidance for Crown Prosecutors is quite interesting:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/self-defence-and-prevention-crime
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 30, 2020, 12:11:30 PM
A collateral damage of USA gun fetichism seems to be the very idea of proportionality.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 30, 2020, 12:17:12 PM
Murder is an appropriate response to property damage, but property damage isn't an appropriate response to murder.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 30, 2020, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 30, 2020, 12:17:12 PM
Murder is an appropriate response to property damage, but property damage isn't an appropriate response to murder.
That's a really bullshit argument.  I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, I'm just being a janitor for garbage arguments.  Usually the person being murdered is the one dealing out the property damage, whereas the person whose property is damaged usually has absolutely nothing to do with the murder.  No one (yet) is going through the minority neighborhoods and randomly shooting at inhabitants there in response to the property damage caused by riots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 12:26:38 PM
He was being chased before he turned and shot the first guy.  One of the rioters had also shot a pistol into the air prior to Rittenhouse turning and shooting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 30, 2020, 12:57:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 12:26:38 PM
He was being chased before he turned and shot the first guy.  One of the rioters had also shot a pistol into the air prior to Rittenhouse turning and shooting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

We don't know which group of rioters pistol-shooting guy belonged to, but it doesn't matter.  Rittenhuse was present with one group of rioters in violation of the law, and he was armed knowing the potential consequences of his vigilante actions.  I feel sorry for him for being as big a dope as the rest of the people who thought it a good idea to carry weapons that night, but the fact is that he killed people under circumstances that make it hard to argue that he was following the law when he did it.

I'll wait for the evidence before assuming guilt or innocence, but I can say that his self-defense case looks very feeble to me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 30, 2020, 12:59:04 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 29, 2020, 07:40:45 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 29, 2020, 06:42:05 PM
Is he trying to kill more people or to flee?

People taking it on themselves to be police is a dangerous situation.
That's just one of the lunacies of the gun fetish ideology.  Pretty soon after the shooting starts no one will have a solid idea of which guy with the gun is the good guy and which one with the gun is the bad guy.  They just know whether a guy with a gun is shooting at other guys with a gun, go figure out whether pulling the trigger will be defending an innocent or murdering an innocent.

This gets to the heart of the matter.  What we are seeing are the consequences of the NRA fantasy scenario of well armed citizens thronging the streets.  Once the shooting starts, total chaos and mayhem inevitably results.  Shots are ringing out and some guy with an AR-15 is running around with shouts that he killed someone (which it turns out is accurate) - how is that going to end up when everyone is exercising their second amendment rights to carry firearms and skateboards?

We need to get back to the traditional American notion that firearms are for recreational purposes or for parents who want to increase the probability their children die by accidental death or suicide. Nor for playing Dirty Harry in American streets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 30, 2020, 01:01:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 12:26:38 PM
He was being chased before he turned and shot the first guy.  One of the rioters had also shot a pistol into the air prior to Rittenhouse turning and shooting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html
I imagine this'll be a big part of the case, but I've copied the prosecution on this about the which includes some witness statements not just the video analysis - we'll get more no doubt and it's obviously their best case so handle with care. But it's not really clear what happens at the start:

QuoteDetective Cepress interviewed McGinnis and indicates the following: Before the shooting, McGinnis was interviewing the defendant. The defendant told McGinnis that he was a trained medic. McGinnis stated that he (McGinnis) has handled many ARs and that the defendant was not handling the weapon very well. McGinnis said that as they were walking south another armed male who appeared to be in his 30s joined them and said he was there to protect the defendant. McGinnis stated that before the defendant reached the parking lot and ran across it, the defendant had moved from the middle of Sheridan Road to the sidewalk and that is when McGinnis saw a male (Rosenbaum) initially try to engage the defendant. McGinnis stated that as the defendant was walking Rosenbaum was trying to get closer to the defendant. When Rosenbaum advanced, the defendant did a "juke" move and started running. McGinnis stated that there were other people that were moving very quickly. McGinnis stated that they were moving towards the defendant. McGinnis said that according to what he saw the defendant was trying to evade these individuals.

McGinnis described the point where the defendant had reached the car. McGinnis described that the defendant had the gun in a low ready position. Meaning that he had the gun raised but pointed downward. The butt of the gun would have been at an angle downwards from the shoulder. McGinnis stated that the defendant brought the gun up. McGinnis stated that he stepped back and he thinks the defendant fired 3 rounds in rapid succession. McGinnis said when the first round went off, he thought it hit the pavement. McGinnis felt something on his leg and his first thought was wondering whether he had gotten shot. McGinnis was behind and slightly to the right of Rosenbaum, in the line of fire, when the defendant shot.

McGinnis stated that the first round went into the ground and when the second shot went off, the defendant actually had the gun aimed at Rosenbaum. McGinnis stated he did not hear the two exchange any words. McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the defendant's gun. McGinnis demonstrated by extending both of his hands in a quick grabbing motion and did that as a visual on how Rosenbaum tried to reach for the defendant's gun. Detective Cepress indicates that he asked McGinnis if Rosenbaum had his hands on the gun when the defendant shot. McGinnis said that he definitely made a motion that he was trying to grab the barrel of the gun. McGinnis stated that the defendant pulled it away and then raised it. McGinnis stated that right as they came together, the defendant fired. McGinnis said that when Rosenbaum
was shot, he had leaned in (towards the defendant).

McGinnis stated that after the defendant shot he ran back towards the hospital towards the middle of the road. McGinnis stayed and turned his attention to Rosenbaum. McGinnis stated that he then heard other shots really soon after.

It then moves to the third video and other shootings and I think at that point it becomes a bit clearer, because surely you can't expect or want people who've just witnessed a shooting to assume it was probably okay because it was in self-defence? Again to use the mugging example if you try and stop someone from mugging an old lady, but someone steps out of a shop at that moment and just sees you punching a random guy, then it's fair that they genuinely believe you're just assaulting someone, right? This is the issue between wanting the public to be involved in a reasonable, proportionate way and discouraging vigilantism. As DG says, the risk is multiplied a lot once you have guns - but I think so is the sort of genuine fear might have, the US has a lot of mass shootings, so how are bystanders to know whether they're preventing a terrorist attack or, assuming what he says is true, self defence? And I think if you're in a space carrying a weapon like this then it seems reasonable to me for people who will walk onto the street, and spot you with a gun and the other person on the ground, to assume you're the cause of the problem.

I don't know what the law is in Wisconsin - and Oex makes a good point. From an English perspective if the force is necessary then you look at if it was a reasonable use of force ("If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken ..."). I'm not sure given the description in the prosecution and even being chased that shooting in response feels either reasonably necessary or reasonable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 30, 2020, 01:10:35 PM
Wisconsin law:

QuoteA person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

It gets more complicated however, because the scope of the justification narrows quite a bit if the "self-defender" is engaged in criminal activity or "provocation"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 30, 2020, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 09:52:54 PM
Well, the crime was illegally carrying the weapon...

The kid involved seems to have become a conservative hero.  That is troubling.  It's the first time a teenage mass shooter has gotten political support.

So you're certain he had no right to self defense?

Where did he say that? The fact he was doing it while committing a crime makes it complicated though.

I mean this kid illegally crossed state lines with a weapon to confront people. It is hardly like he was assualted on his property or something.

Why is killing people always excused? Is there any time it is bad to kill people anymore? Anytime I see some poor fuck get killed so many people rush in to justify the killing. What happened to law, order, and justioce?

It goes back to the Trayvon Martin thing, if you can just claim self defense than how can killing anybody ever be bad? Just claim self defense and your gold, especially with no other witnesses. I don't get it. But sure enough the "conservatives" just rush in with this bizarre extremist doctrine. If you kill somebody and claim self defense can a prosecutor prove it WASN'T self defense? It's impossible, you cannot prove a negative.

But hopefully all these issues will be sorted out in court, to establish if anybody can just shoot anybody else if they feel a little scared and get away with it.

I know real conservatives do not stand for this idiocy. This is similar, though much worse obviously as lives are at stake, as those radical nutballs on the left who continually excuse the illegal activities of those who use these protests to commit crimes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 30, 2020, 01:37:44 PM
Rittenhouse will get his chance to present a self-defense justification to a jury; sadly two of his victims will never get to tell their side of the story  ...

I do think it's sad that a 17 year old kid has to face the prospects of decades in prison - what I saw from the limited footage of him was a naive and foolish young man deluded into thinking he was doing the right thing, oblivious to fact he was making a fraught situation more dangerous. What happened was shocking and yet not surprising. As long as we keep glorifying vigilante amateurism, these scenes will continue to recur and likely escalate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 30, 2020, 02:08:27 PM
Video:

https://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1299783390573465600?s=20

QuoteIs this noncompliance?

We were told, noncompliance is a death sentence. I need an explanation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on August 30, 2020, 02:40:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 30, 2020, 12:25:44 PM
That's a really bullshit argument.  I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, I'm just being a janitor for garbage arguments.  Usually the person being murdered is the one dealing out the property damage, whereas the person whose property is damaged usually has absolutely nothing to do with the murder.  No one (yet) is going through the minority neighborhoods and randomly shooting at inhabitants there in response to the property damage caused by riots.
It would be a bullshit argument if it was an argument.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 30, 2020, 03:09:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 29, 2020, 09:52:54 PM
Well, the crime was illegally carrying the weapon...

The kid involved seems to have become a conservative hero.  That is troubling.  It's the first time a teenage mass shooter has gotten political support.

So you're certain he had no right to self defense?

I'm not a lawyer, maybe you can get self-defense if you are committing a crime.  It would be good news to burglars and robbers.  If he gets off the message is clear, if you see a right-winger with a gun; shoot first.  The law will not protect you from him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 30, 2020, 03:48:52 PM
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/appeals-court-temporarily-halts-protections-journalists-legal-observers/story?id=72688755

QuoteAppeals court temporarily halts protections for journalists, legal observers in Portland

A three-judge panel on Thursday temporarily halted protections for journalists and legal observers covering the unrest In Portland, Oregon.

Last week, federal Judge Michael Simon ruled that journalists and legal observers were exempt from federal officers' physical force, arrest or other treatment if the officers "reasonably know" that a person is a journalist or legal observer.

But in a 2-1 decision, the judges on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, agreed with the government that Judge Simon's initial ruling was too broad.

"Given the order's breadth and lack of clarity, particularly in its non-exclusive indicia of who qualifies as "Journalists" and "Legal Observers," appellants have also demonstrated that, in the absence of a stay, the order will cause irreparable harm to law enforcement efforts and personnel," two of the three judges wrote. "This means that journalists could be subjected to the same physical force as that of the individuals participating."

Attorney William Barr said in a statement that he thought the decision was "an important step."

"Last night, the U.S. Court of Appeals for Ninth Circuit entered an order temporarily blocking an injunction entered by a federal district court in Portland that imposed extensive but vaguely defined constraints on federal law enforcement personnel striving to protect the federal courthouse and surrounding areas in Portland from destruction," Barr said.

"In practical effect, the district court's order prevented the federal government from effectively addressing violent mobs through the general crowd-control measures that are required, and it unacceptably increased the risk of serious injury to federal law enforcement officers. The Ninth Circuit's decision is an important step that will allow federal officers to continue carrying out their important security responsibilities without being subject to untenable conditions."

Federal agents from the Department of Homeland Security and US Marshals have been deployed to the area around the federal courthouse in Portland for the majority of the summer in response to to unrest in the aftermath of the George Floyd's killing.

The Department of Homeland Security has come under heavy scrutiny for the deployment of federal agents there and journalists have extensively documented their role.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 03:58:01 PM
Why is Portland ground zero for these protests, a city with very few black people?  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 04:27:56 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 03:58:01 PM
Why is Portland ground zero for these protests, a city with very few black people?  :hmm:

We have very few black people? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 04:31:45 PM
Yes. Under 3% is very few.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 30, 2020, 04:34:17 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 30, 2020, 02:40:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 30, 2020, 12:25:44 PM
That's a really bullshit argument.  I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, I'm just being a janitor for garbage arguments.  Usually the person being murdered is the one dealing out the property damage, whereas the person whose property is damaged usually has absolutely nothing to do with the murder.  No one (yet) is going through the minority neighborhoods and randomly shooting at inhabitants there in response to the property damage caused by riots.
It would be a bullshit argument if it was an argument.
What was it then?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 30, 2020, 04:34:30 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 30, 2020, 02:08:27 PM
Video:

https://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1299783390573465600?s=20

QuoteIs this noncompliance?

We were told, noncompliance is a death sentence. I need an explanation.

lol damn. You should link this under your sister's next "well just do what the police tells you and you won't be shot" post.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 30, 2020, 04:35:51 PM
To be fair(?), pretty sure that's a taser, not his firearm.  (if that is his service weapon, that's a dumbass way to hold it)


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 04:41:00 PM
So a cop used his discretion and didn't kill someone. Clearly that says something about the others?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 04:31:45 PM
Yes. Under 3% is very few.

Well, it's 6.3% in Portland, which equates to over 40,000 people. That's not exactly "very few".

On top of that,  Portland has a long history of white supremacy. For the past decade, the city has been trying to end their racist policies and practices, usually due to protests.  So, based on that, it's not at all surprising this is happening here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 04:50:10 PM
This is the guy who was shot. He was interviewed when he came to Portland in 2017 to defend the white supremacist who killed two people with a knife on the Max.

https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2017/10/08/19375638/a-man-had-a-gun-stowed-in-his-scooter-at-todays-patriot-prayer-rally-he-was-arrested
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 30, 2020, 05:03:38 PM
To paraphrase his own words to be about him, he is "not a hero, he's not anybody to be idolized, and he deserved everything that he got."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on August 30, 2020, 05:26:45 PM
So, you're hinting that he should have been shot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 30, 2020, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 04:31:45 PM
Yes. Under 3% is very few.

Well, it's 6.3% in Portland, which equates to over 40,000 people. That's not exactly "very few".

On top of that,  Portland has a long history of white supremacy. For the past decade, the city has been trying to end their racist policies and practices, usually due to protests.  So, based on that, it's not at all surprising this is happening here.

6% of the population is a rather low percentage. The very low about of diversity (and specifically black people) is one of the things that both of my sisters noted about their time living there.

From wiki:

QuoteIn 2009, Portland had the fifth-highest percentage of white residents among the 40 largest U.S. metropolitan areas. A 2007 survey of the 40 largest cities in the U.S. concluded Portland's urban core has the highest percentage of white residents. Some scholars have noted the Pacific Northwest as a whole is "one of the last Caucasian bastions of the United States". While Portland's diversity was historically comparable to metro Seattle and Salt Lake City, those areas grew more diverse in the late 1990s and 2000s. Portland not only remains white, but migration to Portland is disproportionately white.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 30, 2020, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 30, 2020, 05:26:45 PM
So, you're hinting that he should have been shot.
I'm hinting that the guy is, sorry, was a piece of trash and, while I don't think he deserved to die, I won't be mourning him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on August 30, 2020, 05:44:29 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 04:41:00 PM
So a cop used his discretion and didn't kill someone. Clearly that says something about the others?

TBF I am sure there are instances of a black dude yelling insults straight into a cop's face for minutes without him being arrested let alone shot, but you have to be really wilfully obtuse to not see the irony in that scene.

Anyways, I saw a news report of one of these Portland pro-Trump demonstrators being shot in some incident but once again it was a Hungarian source who knows what actually happened.


Things seem to be slowly but steadily escalating over there, I am not sure what it will take to de-escalate. Even if Trump loses he will remain a catalyst and leader for the fucktards to feel emboldened into activity,I am hoping the federal state will be quick to adopt better policies in dealing with all this once he is out so there will be a chance for improvement at least with thus Russian asset no longer debilitating the country.  And if he wins then I just don't see how you can go another 4 years of this without some serious violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 30, 2020, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 30, 2020, 04:31:45 PM
Yes. Under 3% is very few.

Well, it's 6.3% in Portland, which equates to over 40,000 people. That's not exactly "very few".

On top of that,  Portland has a long history of white supremacy. For the past decade, the city has been trying to end their racist policies and practices, usually due to protests.  So, based on that, it's not at all surprising this is happening here.

6% of the population is a rather low percentage. The very low about of diversity (and specifically black people) is one of the things that both of my sisters noted about their time living there.

From wiki:

QuoteIn 2009, Portland had the fifth-highest percentage of white residents among the 40 largest U.S. metropolitan areas. A 2007 survey of the 40 largest cities in the U.S. concluded Portland's urban core has the highest percentage of white residents. Some scholars have noted the Pacific Northwest as a whole is "one of the last Caucasian bastions of the United States". While Portland's diversity was historically comparable to metro Seattle and Salt Lake City, those areas grew more diverse in the late 1990s and 2000s. Portland not only remains white, but migration to Portland is disproportionately white.

40,000 people who have been systemically abused by the system are still 40,000 people fighting. On top of that, you get the liberal Whites out there with them, which is most of the rest of the city.

There has been a massive push against the PPB for a while because of how they treat Black people. And white supremacy is all around the city; they often come into the city for marches and protests. That means that those who are here who believe in equality are already "geared up and ready for a fight".

It's not the numbers of minorities that is why it's the epicenter of all of this. It's the history of where they've already come from and what's already been done.

As for the numbers, I admit that I live on the edge of the city where the population is far more mixed than downtown or near the SW suburbs, so I have a different view of how whitewashed the city is. That's intentional. I felt incredibly uncomfortable in one of the other neighborhoods that I lived in. It was one that used to be the red-lined black neighborhood until white people started buying the houses up cheap and forcing the black families out to the edges of the city.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on August 30, 2020, 06:13:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 30, 2020, 05:44:29 PM

Anyways, I saw a news report of one of these Portland pro-Trump demonstrators being shot in some incident but once again it was a Hungarian source who knows what actually happened.


:mellow:

I posted an article further up that this happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 06:43:36 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 30, 2020, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on August 30, 2020, 05:26:45 PM
So, you're hinting that he should have been shot.
I'm hinting that the guy is, sorry, was a piece of trash and, while I don't think he deserved to die, I won't be mourning him.

That's what I hear people on the right saying about one of the two guys that got killed in Kenosha.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 30, 2020, 07:36:59 PM
Oh. That's what you hear eh?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 30, 2020, 08:42:03 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 30, 2020, 07:36:59 PM
Oh. That's what you hear eh?


Well, yeah.  I mean one of the guys was Jewish. Globalist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:10:57 PM
No, they're saying he was a convicted sex offender.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 30, 2020, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:10:57 PM
No, they're saying he was a convicted sex offender.

And do you listen to what "they're" saying?  Are "they" offering any proof?  Do "they" even name the victim to whom "they" refer? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:32:07 PM
The Rosenbaum guy. Yes, there's proof. And chillax.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 30, 2020, 11:50:29 PM
He certainly seems to have spent quite a lot of time in prison. Of course the shooter would not be aware of the criminal histories of any of his victims.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 31, 2020, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 30, 2020, 11:50:29 PM
He certainly seems to have spent quite a lot of time in prison. Of course the shooter would not be aware of the criminal histories of any of his victims.

And even if he did, unless a court sentences a man to death it is still illegal to kill them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on August 31, 2020, 12:09:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:32:07 PM
The Rosenbaum guy. Yes, there's proof. And chillax.

Why are you "conservatives" always so concerned about the victims' bad juju? Trayvon Martin had traces of marijuana in his system, dID yOu kNoW tHat????

Good thing we have our local Tucker Carlson on hand to tell us what "they" are saying.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on August 31, 2020, 12:38:09 AM
Lots of people are bad and all are flawed which is why we have a criminal justice system; you will have civil war if justifying vigilantism because people are drug offenders or racist shitheads becomes  a mainstream view.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: bogh on August 31, 2020, 12:42:42 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 31, 2020, 12:09:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:32:07 PM
The Rosenbaum guy. Yes, there's proof. And chillax.

Why are you "conservatives" always so concerned about the victims' bad juju? Trayvon Martin had traces of marijuana in his system, dID yOu kNoW tHat????

Good thing we have our local Tucker Carlson on hand to tell us what "they" are saying.

I think derspiess was making the point that the speculation about the PP guy being a POS reminded him of the right wing speculation about the Kenosha guys - in both instances it isn't really relevant to the case itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 31, 2020, 01:00:12 AM
Considering the large number of people with criminal records in the US, I don't think it's insightful to focus on prior convictions of any of the victims in these shootings:

From 2015:

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/just-facts-many-americans-have-criminal-records-college-diplomas

QuoteThe number of Americans with a criminal history has risen sharply over the past three decades. Today, nearly one-third of the adult working age population has a criminal record. In fact, so many Americans have a criminal record that counting them all is nearly impossible.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 31, 2020, 02:14:55 AM
I always unthinkingly thought that having a "criminal record" meant that you had been convicted of a crime. I didn't know that it included arrests and stuff. Nice. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 31, 2020, 07:58:46 AM
Quote from: bogh on August 31, 2020, 12:42:42 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on August 31, 2020, 12:09:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:32:07 PM
The Rosenbaum guy. Yes, there's proof. And chillax.

Why are you "conservatives" always so concerned about the victims' bad juju? Trayvon Martin had traces of marijuana in his system, dID yOu kNoW tHat????

Good thing we have our local Tucker Carlson on hand to tell us what "they" are saying.

I think derspiess was making the point that the speculation about the PP guy being a POS reminded him of the right wing speculation about the Kenosha guys - in both instances it isn't really relevant to the case itself.

Correct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on August 31, 2020, 10:25:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 31, 2020, 02:14:55 AM
I always unthinkingly thought that having a "criminal record" meant that you had been convicted of a crime. I didn't know that it included arrests and stuff. Nice. :)

A criminal record is just that - a record of convictions.

Now, records are also kept of "arrests and stuff", and I know I can access all of that information (records of charges not resulting in convictions is trivial, records of arrests not leading to charges difficult but not impossible) but no one would call that a criminal record.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on August 31, 2020, 10:42:07 AM
Well, some would.  Either the ignorant, or those for whom it is in their interest to do so.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on August 31, 2020, 11:05:06 AM
Many would, in fact. Especially in the US, where that shit is automated, and where many employers run check for criminal records prior to employment. Any « check » is usually sufficient to disqualify an applicant; few bother to look at what the record says, and many still operate under the assumption that an arrest is already sign that something is fishy.

One of my student was wrongfully arrested (a felon had the same name as he). He still hasn't succeeded in fully scrubbing his record, and that was with the help of his relatively affluent family and their lawyers. I can't imagine what it is for people with much less resources as he had.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on August 31, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:10:57 PM
No, they're saying he was a convicted sex offender.


Wait, they aren't saying he was Jewish?  Cause I'm hearing them saying that he's Jewish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 31, 2020, 01:19:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 31, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:10:57 PM
No, they're saying he was a convicted sex offender.


Wait, they aren't saying he was Jewish?  Cause I'm hearing them saying that he's Jewish.

That's silly. Giant ants don't talk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 31, 2020, 01:19:48 PM
Wow, now there is a reference  :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 31, 2020, 07:36:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 31, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 30, 2020, 09:10:57 PM
No, they're saying he was a convicted sex offender.


Wait, they aren't saying he was Jewish?  Cause I'm hearing them saying that he's Jewish.

I guess we're hearing different "theys" :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on August 31, 2020, 08:57:49 PM
Anybody who pays attention to "them" is a dope.  "They" have no interest in the truth, just an interest in the froth.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on August 31, 2020, 10:51:35 PM
Okay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 31, 2020, 11:17:56 PM
:o Wow, an actual agreement. :unsure: We don't have nearly enough of that as of late.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on August 31, 2020, 11:47:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 31, 2020, 11:17:56 PM
:o Wow, an actual agreement. :unsure: We don't have nearly enough of that as of late.

Fuck you, then have the horse you rode in on fuck you too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:06:58 AM
Here's the play-by-play of the shooting in Portland Saturday. Be warned,  there are links to two videos that show the actual shooting.

It appears that the guy who was shot maced the shooter. The guys with the cameras are struggling to breathe and one can't see for a bit.

Video: How the Fatal Shooting at A Portland Protest Unfolded https://nyti.ms/3gQAcSd
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 01, 2020, 05:07:48 AM
Trump visiting Kenosha today. I'm sure he will find soothing and healing words that will bring the nation together.

Then, maybe, not.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg0dODzWoAECjE0?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 01:45:13 PM
My office building is completely shut down today. There are supposed to be protests two block down from there - at the Federal building - today. No one is supposed to be in the office anyway, but some have gone in at various times for reasons. Today, no one can go there.

Over the weekend, I saw several of the Patriot Prayer guys around my place, which is disconcerting. I live in a very minority-heavy area.

These conflicts are coming much closer to home now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 02:28:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 01:45:13 PM
My office building is completely shut down today. There are supposed to be protests two block down from there - at the Federal building - today. No one is supposed to be in the office anyway, but some have gone in at various times for reasons. Today, no one can go there.

Over the weekend, I saw several of the Patriot Prayer guys around my place, which is disconcerting. I live in a very minority-heavy area.

These conflicts are coming much closer to home now.

Patriot Prayer isn't so bad. If anyone starts violence there, I doubt it will be them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 02:28:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 01:45:13 PM
My office building is completely shut down today. There are supposed to be protests two block down from there - at the Federal building - today. No one is supposed to be in the office anyway, but some have gone in at various times for reasons. Today, no one can go there.

Over the weekend, I saw several of the Patriot Prayer guys around my place, which is disconcerting. I live in a very minority-heavy area.

These conflicts are coming much closer to home now.

Patriot Prayer isn't so bad. If anyone starts violence there, I doubt it will be them.

:mellow:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Their leader is under indictment right now for starting fights in downtown Portland last year. They are regularly at protests with guns, bats, and paintball guns. They deliberately drove through downtown Portland on Saturday during the BLM protests, spraying protesters with bear mace and shooting them with paintball guns.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Well that is just assualt. It isn't real violence until something gets looted or somebody gets killed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 01, 2020, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Well that is just assualt. It isn't real violence until something gets looted or somebody gets killed by left wingers or blacks.

FYP
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 01, 2020, 02:52:56 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Of course he does. He just happens to share their views, is all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 01, 2020, 02:55:11 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm not at all sure about that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 03:03:23 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 01, 2020, 02:55:11 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm not at all sure about that.

You guys know that I live in Portland, yes? :huh: This is not this group's first foray into public nuisance area.

Are you aware that the guy that killed the two people on the train in 2017 was associated with them? In fact, the guy that was killed on Saturday is on record defending the train killer.

But what the fuck ever. Yeah. I'm sure it's all going to be great. What do I know?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 01, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 03:03:23 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 01, 2020, 02:55:11 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm not at all sure about that.

You guys know that I live in Portland, yes? :huh: This is not this group's first foray into public nuisance area.

Are you aware that the guy that killed the two people on the train in 2017 was associated with them? In fact, the guy that was killed on Saturday is on record defending the train killer.

But what the fuck ever. Yeah. I'm sure it's all going to be great. What do I know?


Uhm, pretty sure the Dguller is saying little Neo (Nazi) knows what he's saying is wrong to annoy people, not that you're wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 01, 2020, 03:09:27 PM
DG suggested that AD is affiliated with Patriot Prayer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 01, 2020, 03:12:17 PM
The Brain is correct, not that it ever needs to be said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 03:13:15 PM
AD doesn't strike me as the religious type. He probably would prefer a more demonic right wing militia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on September 01, 2020, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 03:13:15 PM
AD doesn't strike me as the religious type. He probably would prefer a more demonic right wing militia.
It doesn't say who they're praying to.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 01, 2020, 04:47:19 PM
So...

I have a sex assault trial tomorrow.  Amidst all the other things I do to get ready, I email my officers about times to come to court.  But funny enough, the email to my lead officer bounces.  I go to the EPS Crown Liaison office located inside our office, they search his name but are puzzled - he's still with the force but they have no contact info for him.

Based on which thread this is you can guess what's happened - yup he's been charged with assault for use of excessive force and suspended without pay.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-police-commission-upholds-suspension-1.5690950

Technically he is under subpoena, and this is a major file.  We'll see what happens...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on September 01, 2020, 04:50:49 PM
I'm not a law talking guy, but I guess you have a deposition or statement you can use?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 01, 2020, 04:56:52 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 01, 2020, 04:50:49 PM
I'm not a law talking guy, but I guess you have a deposition or statement you can use?

I have his notes and report (plus the video of the interview he did with the Accused), but no I can't use them - I need a live body.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
Another black man shot in the back. This one was stopped for a bicycle violation.

Oh, he had a gun, but he had dropped it to the ground. That's why they shot him. Because he dropped the gun to the ground and they saw it, so they believed that their lives were in danger.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-usa-los-angeles/los-angeles-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-after-suspected-bike-violation-idUSKBN25S606

QuoteLOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Black cyclist was fatally shot by Los Angeles County police, the latest instance of police killing a Black man, as the county Sheriff's Department and a lawyer representing the man's family gave diverging accounts of the shooting on Tuesday.

The cyclist, 29-year-old Dijon Kizzee, was shot more than 20 times in the back on Monday afternoon after two sheriff's deputies tried to stop him for a bicycle code violation, said Benjamin Crump, who said he is representing Kizzee's family.

The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department said Kizzee, whose identity was confirmed by the county medical examiner-coroner, was shot fewer than 20 times after dropping a handgun he had been carrying and punching one of the deputies.

The killing renewed protests in the city by demonstrators angered at deadly violence against Black people by police. Such protests have become a near daily occurrence around the country after George Floyd, a Black man, was killed by a white Minneapolis police officer in May.

"You don't kill any race but us, and it don't make any sense," Fletcher Fair, Dijon Kizzee's aunt, told reporters at the site of the shooting on Tuesday where activists called for an independent investigation by California's attorney general. "Why us?"

Protests also continued in Kenosha, Wisconsin, over a white police officer's shooting of Jacob Blake, a Black man, seven times in the back, leaving him paralyzed, and the unrest has become a major issue ahead of November's presidential election.

President Donald Trump, a Republican, arrived in Kenosha on Tuesday as he seeks to rally his base of white supporters by defending police against criticism of brutality.

Kizzee was riding his bike on Monday afternoon in Los Angeles County's Westmont neighborhood when two sheriff's deputies who had been driving by tried to stop him.

Kizzee abandoned his bike and ran for a block with the deputies in pursuit, Brandon Dean, a sheriff's department spokesman, told reporters on Monday evening. Kizzee then punched one of the deputies in the face, dropping a bundle of clothing he was carrying, the department said.

The deputies said a semi-automatic handgun was in the dropped bundle, and both of them began shooting Kizzee, the department said.


Dean said he did not know what part of the bicycle code Kizzee was suspected to have violated or how many times the deputies shot him, other than saying it was fewer than 20. His office declined to answer questions about the shooting and the status of the two deputies on Tuesday.

The county coroner was due to conduct an autopsy on Kizzee on Tuesday.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 01, 2020, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
Another black man shot in the back. This one was stopped for a bicycle violation.

Oh, he had a gun, but he had dropped it to the ground. That's why they shot him. Because he dropped the gun to the ground and they saw it, so they believed that their lives were in danger.


"he had dropped it to the ground" is enormously deceptive. If fell DURING A FISTFIGHT WITH THE COPS.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 06:23:56 PM
Well if you have a gun on you, you can be shot and people can claim self defense. All that personal security a gun gives you, an armed society is a polite society and all that.

But you have to be pretty nuts these days to start fights with the police.

And of course this had to happen in Los Angeles County. 2020 delivers another shit sandwich.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 01, 2020, 06:31:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 06:23:56 PM
Well if you have a gun on you, you can be shot and people can claim self defense. All that personal security a gun gives you, an armed society is a polite society and all that.

But you have to be pretty nuts these days to start fights with the police.

And of course this had to happen in Los Angeles County. 2020 delivers another shit sandwich.


Probably the cops would not have shot him if he was of a more leniently judged skin colour, but he sounds like a petty thief who got into a fight with the police while resisting arrest. I would say as a general principle people who try to beat up cops to escape arrest should be shot at to avoid them escaping, to make resisting an arrest violently a bad gamble.

Then again a more trustworthy police force would be required for such a policy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 06:34:44 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 01, 2020, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
Another black man shot in the back. This one was stopped for a bicycle violation.

Oh, he had a gun, but he had dropped it to the ground. That's why they shot him. Because he dropped the gun to the ground and they saw it, so they believed that their lives were in danger.


"he had dropped it to the ground" is enormously deceptive. If fell DURING A FISTFIGHT WITH THE COPS.

So they shot him 20 times in the back after he no longer had the gun, and you're okay with that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 06:35:39 PM
I mean he is already fighting them and then they discover he was packing heat and you know the police are trained to unload if they feel like their lives are in danger. I mean I am not saying this was suicide but damn dude, especially being black after all that has happened.

Anyway the ball is in Los Angeles County's court to handle the fallout and not endanger more of their citizens and officers lives.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 01, 2020, 06:42:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 06:34:44 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 01, 2020, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
Another black man shot in the back. This one was stopped for a bicycle violation.

Oh, he had a gun, but he had dropped it to the ground. That's why they shot him. Because he dropped the gun to the ground and they saw it, so they believed that their lives were in danger.


"he had dropped it to the ground" is enormously deceptive. If fell DURING A FISTFIGHT WITH THE COPS.

So they shot him 20 times in the back after he no longer had the gun, and you're okay with that?

You are not entitled to chivalric conduct when assaulting a police officer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 06:47:45 PM
I mean you are in deep shit if you assault a police officer but anything short of being killed on the spot is hardly chivalric conduct.

But how were they to know he did not have another gun on him? These other police killings of citizens involved unarmed people, this is not like the others.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:24:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

:mellow:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Their leader is under indictment right now for starting fights in downtown Portland last year. They are regularly at protests with guns, bats, and paintball guns. They deliberately drove through downtown Portland on Saturday during the BLM protests, spraying protesters with bear mace and shooting them with paintball guns.

Did they actually start fights against peaceful people though, or were they attacked? Surely they came prepared for a fight, Antifa and BLM won't tolerate a peaceful counterprotest and the police won't intervene.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:26:38 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 01, 2020, 03:09:27 PM
DG suggested that AD is affiliated with Patriot Prayer.

I'm not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:30:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 01, 2020, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Well that is just assualt. It isn't real violence until something gets looted or somebody gets killed by left wingers or blacks.

FYP

Wrong. I try to apply consistent standards regardless of race or party. My position in this thread has generally been that retaliatory violence is more justifiable than initiating violence, though I'd prefer no violence at all.

Merithyn seemed to imply that Patriot Prayer were prowling the streets looking for innocent minorities to attack. I don't think that's realistic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:43:15 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:24:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM

:mellow:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Their leader is under indictment right now for starting fights in downtown Portland last year. They are regularly at protests with guns, bats, and paintball guns. They deliberately drove through downtown Portland on Saturday during the BLM protests, spraying protesters with bear mace and shooting them with paintball guns.

Did they actually start fights against peaceful people though, or were they attacked? Surely they came prepared for a fight, Antifa and BLM won't tolerate a peaceful counterprotest and the police won't intervene.

There are videos of these people deliberately ramming other cars on the highway. They drove downtown and sprayed mace at passersby.

This is not the first time these guys have done this. It's not even the fourth time. This is their MO and has been since their inception in 2016.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:30:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 01, 2020, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Well that is just assualt. It isn't real violence until something gets looted or somebody gets killed by left wingers or blacks.

FYP

Wrong. I try to apply consistent standards regardless of race or party. My position in this thread has generally been that retaliatory violence is more justifiable than initiating violence, though I'd prefer no violence at all.

Merithyn seemed to imply that Patriot Prayer were prowling the streets looking for innocent minorities to attack. I don't think that's realistic.

They're not looking for "minorities". Watch their own videos. They're hunting "antifa".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:43:15 PM

There are videos of these people deliberately ramming other cars on the highway. They drove downtown and sprayed mace at passersby.

This is not the first time these guys have done this. It's not even the fourth time. This is their MO and has been since their inception in 2016.

I haven't seen that and am quite skeptical.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
They're not looking for "minorities". Watch their own videos. They're hunting "antifa".

I know, I was referring to what you said earlier:

Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
Over the weekend, I saw several of the Patriot Prayer guys around my place, which is disconcerting. I live in a very minority-heavy area.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 01, 2020, 08:07:27 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:30:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 01, 2020, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Well that is just assualt. It isn't real violence until something gets looted or somebody gets killed by left wingers or blacks.

FYP

Wrong. I try to apply consistent standards regardless of race or party. My position in this thread has generally been that retaliatory violence is more justifiable than initiating violence, though I'd prefer no violence at all.

Merithyn seemed to imply that Patriot Prayer were prowling the streets looking for innocent minorities to attack. I don't think that's realistic.

They're not looking for "minorities". Watch their own videos. They're hunting "antifa".

And they believe that they can tell "antifa" because "antifa" has darker skin than non-antifa.

The police need to crack down on these guys brandishing guns and the system needs to toss them in the slammer for a while.  Otherwise we will end up with more children going to prison for murder because they are enamored with the gun fetish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:05:15 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
They're not looking for "minorities". Watch their own videos. They're hunting "antifa".

I know, I was referring to what you said earlier:

Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
Over the weekend, I saw several of the Patriot Prayer guys around my place, which is disconcerting. I live in a very minority-heavy area.

I think you misunderstand my unease. The Patriot Prayer guys - who usually have Proud Boys with them at these things - are provocateurs. They deliberately bait people to upset them. Real life trolls, if you will. Driving through my neighborhood - with Trump flags, guys in the back calling out to vote Trump, taunting anyone they see but especially people of color - is begging for someone to do something to them. They know this because that's exactly what they've been doing for years. They "bump" the cars in front of them, they spray bear mace, they antagonize people without actually attacking them. And when someone pushes back, then they unload on them, generally in the form of a fight. Sometimes, they have weapons - and they've shown them at rallies. In my neighborhood, it wouldn't surprise me if people around here have weapons, too. (Crime isn't unknown around here.)

This is a powder keg waiting for a match, and these guys know it. Portland has been protesting downtown every night since May. When the Feds came, the protesters got more violent, not less. (Prior to the feds coming, things had been winding down.) Now, there are riots every night. All of this is downtown and nowhere near where I live, but everyone in the city is on edge. It's hard not to be. So seeing these massive trucks filled with white men brandishing "Vote Trump" flags and paintball guns coming out our way is ... I'll be honest, it's scary as hell.

There are tiny children in my apartment complex. One stray bullet... There are families out playing all the time. You think parents aren't going to try to protect their children from this perceived threat?

COVID has all of us on edge. The protests/riots downtown ramped that up. Now... ? What do you think is going to happen? You think this is going to end peacefully with everyone holding hands and singing kumbaya? Yeah... tell that to Jay Danielson, the guy shot downtown on Saturday. Or those three guys shot in Kenosha (of all fucking places, KENOSHA??).

It all needs to stop, but it's not going to with those guys out trolling the streets for "antifa", aka "others".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 01, 2020, 10:20:35 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
Dean said he did not know what part of the bicycle code Kizzee was suspected to have violated or how many times the deputies shot him, other than saying it was fewer than 20. His office declined to answer questions about the shooting and the status of the two deputies on Tuesday.
maybe US police should go back to using musket pistols. At least, it would be easier to count the shots that were fired.   :glare:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:22:09 PM
Two months ago, I said that the protests were contained in a four-block area, and it was. I had gone down there to take pictures, to see it for myself. It wasn't pretty, but it wasn't awful. The park across from the federal building and city jail were messy, there was a lot of graffiti, but overall, it wasn't that bad. I had zero fear going downtown during the day.

Today, my company closed our campus down completely. Our office is two blocks from the city jail, and there were supposed to be protests today. (I'm avoiding the news, so I don't know if they happened, but likely.) On top of that, the shooting was eight blocks down from the federal building, and the protesters had swarmed a block further up and a block further down. Now we're talking 10 blocks by three blocks. It's growing. The police are tired and losing what little composure they had. The protesters are getting more bold, and the rioters (who are separate from the protesters, imo) are getting downright dangerous. They've lit fires in the streets, burned benches in the parks, and there have been attempted fires at the Mayor's apartment complex.

The Mayor has called for peace. The Police Chief, a newly appointed Chief who is a black man, has called for peace. BLM speakers have called for peace. It's not happening.

Do you know what else hasn't happened? The Mayor and the Police Chief have not sat down with the BLM organizers and had a conversation. The BLM organizers have asked, but the police say not until the protests stop. Well that's not going to happen. And worse than all of that, the vast majority of people causing the most damage are young white people (men and women). I've watched interviews on independent journalists' YouTube channels where the BLM organizers are in tears, begging people to stop causing destruction and damage. I've heard their speeches where they talk about peacefully making themselves heard.

All of it is so maddening. I'm an outsider, watching, and wishing with all of my heart that it will all stop, knowing that it's not going to. I absolutely love downtown Portland. It's a beautiful, vibrant, unique space. And it's being destroyed night after night. And for all the wrong reasons. So seeing the Patriot Prayer guys - with their sidekicks the Proud Boys - drive around my neighborhood is scary as fuck. Maybe it's hyperbole (anticipating grumbler here), but I'm an anxiety-riddled mess. I know several of the parents in my apartment complex are, too. This isn't okay. None of this is okay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 02, 2020, 01:14:29 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 01, 2020, 07:26:38 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 01, 2020, 03:09:27 PM
DG suggested that AD is affiliated with Patriot Prayer.

I'm not.

Really? Then how come I saw your email address on the send list of the invitation to the Christmas bazaar last year?

OH CRAP
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 01:20:53 AM
Who does The Brain pray to?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 02, 2020, 01:28:54 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 01:20:53 AM
Who does The Brain pray to?
pray or prey?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 02, 2020, 02:09:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2020, 06:35:39 PM
I mean he is already fighting them and then they discover he was packing heat and you know the police are trained to unload if they feel like their lives are in danger. I mean I am not saying this was suicide but damn dude, especially being black after all that has happened.

Anyway the ball is in Los Angeles County's court to handle the fallout and not endanger more of their citizens and officers lives.

What's the all that has happened in your statement?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:22:09 PM
The BLM organizers have asked, but the police say not until the protests stop.
on that, they are absolutely right.  They should not cede to the demands of the street.

BLM want to meet with the police and politicians to explore solutions, fine, but the protests have to stop first.  Wether BLM is a machiavelic arch-organisation cooperating hand in hand with the Antifa terror network to destroy the heart and soul of America is irrelevant.  There are protests that degenerate.  They say they don't want them to degenerate, they at least ask people not to commit acts of violence and vandalism (and that's a very good thing and a step in the right direction), but it still happens regardless.

They should stop the protest, so that any violence that occurs would clearly not be linked to them and they should engage in a meaningful dialog with political and police representatives.

If they're unwilling to do that, it means they want to maintain their status as a protest group and are not interested in fixing anything that is, presumably, wrong.

Their only alternative is to keep protesting until a saviour arrives, and I doubt they'll get it.  The longer they protest, the more ground Trump's ilk are gaining.  If it comes to a point where a portion of the population feels "under siege", they will turn toward the "strong man", not the diplomatically minded one.

They should show everyone that you can arrive at a meaningful consensus, at racial harmony, without destroying the part of society non-racist conservatives are attached to.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 02, 2020, 02:52:12 AM
What leverage do they have when the protests stop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 02, 2020, 06:18:57 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:22:09 PM
The BLM organizers have asked, but the police say not until the protests stop.
on that, they are absolutely right.  They should not cede to the demands of the street.

BLM want to meet with the police and politicians to explore solutions, fine, but the protests have to stop first.  Wether BLM is a machiavelic arch-organisation cooperating hand in hand with the Antifa terror network to destroy the heart and soul of America is irrelevant.  There are protests that degenerate.  They say they don't want them to degenerate, they at least ask people not to commit acts of violence and vandalism (and that's a very good thing and a step in the right direction), but it still happens regardless.

They should stop the protest, so that any violence that occurs would clearly not be linked to them and they should engage in a meaningful dialog with political and police representatives.

If they're unwilling to do that, it means they want to maintain their status as a protest group and are not interested in fixing anything that is, presumably, wrong.

Their only alternative is to keep protesting until a saviour arrives, and I doubt they'll get it.  The longer they protest, the more ground Trump's ilk are gaining.  If it comes to a point where a portion of the population feels "under siege", they will turn toward the "strong man", not the diplomatically minded one.

They should show everyone that you can arrive at a meaningful consensus, at racial harmony, without destroying the part of society non-racist conservatives are attached to.

I very much disagree. Despite the Trumpian propaganda, the protesters are not a professional army, they cannot be just clocked in and out the street at the leadership's desire. Once the organisers send people home that's the end of it, and that is precisely why the city wants that to happen before they start to negotiate, as they would not have to negotiate at all if that happened.

Also the authorities are likely correct in their assumption that fatigue and the escalation of looting and violence will end the peaceful protests before they have to agree to anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:12:10 AM
The violence has pretty much destroyed BLM's chances on a natinal level once again. Back in June it really felt like things were shifting and that most of the country was with them but that has all evaporated and we are pretty much back to where we were before George Floyd was killed. So those people who think they are helping by acting radical are really doing a great job enpowering and enabling the very thing they claim they are fighting against. I cannot condemn them more, both for the victims of their violence but also all the people whose lives might have been saved by comprehensive police reform. They might as well have shot them themselves for all they have accomplished over the past few months.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:17:30 AM
I think some progress was made on a local level in some cities and hey maybe somebody will actualy produce a new model that works, that is ultimately how our federal system is supposed to work. But damn what a missed opportunity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 02, 2020, 11:22:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:12:10 AM
The violence has pretty much destroyed BLM's chances on a natinal level once again. Back in June it really felt like things were shifting and that most of the country was with them but that has all evaporated and we are pretty much back to where we were before George Floyd was killed. So those people who think they are helping by acting radical are really doing a great job enpowering and enabling the very thing they claim they are fighting against. I cannot condemn them more, both for the victims of their violence but also all the people whose lives might have been saved by comprehensive police reform. They might as well have shot them themselves for all they have accomplished over the past few months.

I'm reminded of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llci8MVh8J4
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on September 02, 2020, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2020, 09:23:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
my understanding of the case is that Blake was told to stop multiple times, 2 officers fired their tasers at him, and he kept going for his car where a knife was seen (and found).

unless the knife was planted there after the fact by the officers (unlikely, since he did say he had a knife), I don't see how it can be a hate crime at this point.  Maybe there's other evidences not referred by Wikipedia?

Blake was shot in the back six times.  Whether police had fired tasers at his back before then is not relevant.  whether there was a knife in his car is not relevant.  At the time he was assaulted, he posed no threat to anyone.  The officers could not have been in fear of their life given that his back was turned to them.  Police had no reason to believe that he had committed a crime, nor that he was going to commit a felony unless the police used deadly force.  So, the deadly force was not justified.  If you want to weasel about whether it was a "hate crime" or merely unprovoked attempted murder, please do so elsewhere.
There was a warrant for his arrest, and there had been a complaint he did not belong there.


At least someone supporting the police on this has the guts to say why a Black man was really shot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 02, 2020, 11:38:07 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 02, 2020, 02:52:12 AM
What leverage do they have when the protests stop?

This is it, exactly. By saying "not until", they're showing that they're more worried about maintaining the upper hand than helping fix what is a serious problem. It's bullshit. They need to do whatever they can to fix this. That's their job.

This playing chicken is exactly why we have a problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 02, 2020, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 01:20:53 AM
Who does The Brain pray to?

To Crom, but he seldom prays to him.  He does not listen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on September 02, 2020, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 02, 2020, 11:32:41 AM
At least someone supporting the police on this has the guts to say why a Black man was really shot.

Er....he "did not belong there" because apparently that was where his rape victim lives, and she is the one who called the cops on him, at least according to the woman's aunt.  Also that might have been her car.  She says he took her keys, at least.

His car.  The woman had a restraining order against him, says he showed up and "violated her."  The restraining order was because he has done this to her before.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Ancient Demon on September 02, 2020, 11:55:09 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:05:15 PM
I think you misunderstand my unease. The Patriot Prayer guys - who usually have Proud Boys with them at these things - are provocateurs. They deliberately bait people to upset them. Real life trolls, if you will. Driving through my neighborhood - with Trump flags, guys in the back calling out to vote Trump, taunting anyone they see but especially people of color - is begging for someone to do something to them. They know this because that's exactly what they've been doing for years.

On that we could mostly agree. I don't think what they're doing is a good idea or very productive. That's par for the course for a counterprotest though. I don't agree with heckler's veto, and I doubt you would either if the roles were reversed. The police need to do more to stop the actual violence though.

Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:05:15 PMIt all needs to stop, but it's not going to with those guys out trolling the streets for "antifa", aka "others".

Agreed. I also think more responsibility should be assigned to the mayors who initially ordered the police to stand down in the face of riots and refused federal assistance, and to the DAs for refusing to press charges against rioters.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 02, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:22:09 PM
The BLM organizers have asked, but the police say not until the protests stop.
on that, they are absolutely right.  They should not cede to the demands of the street.

BLM want to meet with the police and politicians to explore solutions, fine, but the protests have to stop first. 

The protests do not "have to stop" because the right to protest is constitutionally protected.  A state officer or agency who conditions a reasonable request from citizens to meet to discuss the agency's conduct of its official duties on the waiver of a constitutional right is acting contrary to the Constitution.

The police serve the citizens not the other way around, a basic reality that seems a few police or police departments may have forgotten. If a group of concerned citizens who are otherwise law-abiding seeks dialogue with police in an effort to defuse violence it is irresponsible and a dereliction of duty for the police to refuse.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 02, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
I hope that Democratic city leaders in the US are not going to help snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2020.  Losing control and order is a deadly sin for any political leader, and is definitely a very effective way to activate the fear reflex that turns people fascist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 12:13:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 01, 2020, 04:47:19 PM
So...

I have a sex assault trial tomorrow.  Amidst all the other things I do to get ready, I email my officers about times to come to court.  But funny enough, the email to my lead officer bounces.  I go to the EPS Crown Liaison office located inside our office, they search his name but are puzzled - he's still with the force but they have no contact info for him.

Based on which thread this is you can guess what's happened - yup he's been charged with assault for use of excessive force and suspended without pay.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-police-commission-upholds-suspension-1.5690950

Technically he is under subpoena, and this is a major file.  We'll see what happens...

My constable did in fact show up today. :)  I remember him now - was very nice and personable to me and the victim.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 02, 2020, 02:23:28 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 02, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 01, 2020, 10:22:09 PM
The BLM organizers have asked, but the police say not until the protests stop.
on that, they are absolutely right.  They should not cede to the demands of the street.

BLM want to meet with the police and politicians to explore solutions, fine, but the protests have to stop first. 

The protests do not "have to stop" because the right to protest is constitutionally protected.  A state officer or agency who conditions a reasonable request from citizens to meet to discuss the agency's conduct of its official duties on the waiver of a constitutional right is acting contrary to the Constitution.

The police serve the citizens not the other way around, a basic reality that seems a few police or police departments may have forgotten. If a group of concerned citizens who are otherwise law-abiding seeks dialogue with police in an effort to defuse violence it is irresponsible and a dereliction of duty for the police to refuse.

What about the riots?  Should they stop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 02, 2020, 02:23:28 PM
What about the riots?  Should they stop?

They should never have started.

But I don't see why the police should refuse to cooperate with law abiding citizens just because others are breaking the law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 02, 2020, 02:45:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 02, 2020, 02:23:28 PM
What about the riots?  Should they stop?

They should never have started.

But I don't see why the police should refuse to cooperate with law abiding citizens just because others are breaking the law.

It's as good an excuse as any.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 02, 2020, 02:46:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 02, 2020, 02:23:28 PM
What about the riots?  Should they stop?

They should never have started.

But I don't see why the police should refuse to cooperate with law abiding citizens just because others are breaking the law.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on September 02, 2020, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 02, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
Losing control and order is a deadly sin for any political leader, and is definitely a very effective way to activate the fear reflex that turns people fascist.
*Looks at the responses in this thread* You don't say...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on September 02, 2020, 04:00:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 12:13:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 01, 2020, 04:47:19 PM
So...

I have a sex assault trial tomorrow.  Amidst all the other things I do to get ready, I email my officers about times to come to court.  But funny enough, the email to my lead officer bounces.  I go to the EPS Crown Liaison office located inside our office, they search his name but are puzzled - he's still with the force but they have no contact info for him.

Based on which thread this is you can guess what's happened - yup he's been charged with assault for use of excessive force and suspended without pay.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-police-commission-upholds-suspension-1.5690950

Technically he is under subpoena, and this is a major file.  We'll see what happens...

My constable did in fact show up today. :)  I remember him now - was very nice and personable to me and the victim.

Probably less nice and personable to his alleged victim.  ;)
But I'm glad he was able to show. Good luck!  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 02, 2020, 02:52:12 AM
What leverage do they have when the protests stop?
they can resume the protests if their goal of meeting the politicians does not materialize despite the promises.

protesting won't change anything and change will take time.  Disbanding the police is not realistic in a large city like Portland, too much chaos involved.  Defunding the police, if by that they mean less money for surplus military equipment and more money on social services, that is a realistic goals.  If they mean "gut them until there's no money for police work", it is not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 02, 2020, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 28, 2020, 09:23:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 28, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
my understanding of the case is that Blake was told to stop multiple times, 2 officers fired their tasers at him, and he kept going for his car where a knife was seen (and found).

unless the knife was planted there after the fact by the officers (unlikely, since he did say he had a knife), I don't see how it can be a hate crime at this point.  Maybe there's other evidences not referred by Wikipedia?

Blake was shot in the back six times.  Whether police had fired tasers at his back before then is not relevant.  whether there was a knife in his car is not relevant.  At the time he was assaulted, he posed no threat to anyone.  The officers could not have been in fear of their life given that his back was turned to them.  Police had no reason to believe that he had committed a crime, nor that he was going to commit a felony unless the police used deadly force.  So, the deadly force was not justified.  If you want to weasel about whether it was a "hate crime" or merely unprovoked attempted murder, please do so elsewhere.
There was a warrant for his arrest, and there had been a complaint he did not belong there.


At least someone supporting the police on this has the guts to say why a Black man was really shot.
I did not say I supported the police, nor did I say they were justified in shooting him.  But again, the threshold for a hate crime is too high in this case, no jury would ever convict a police officer on such a case, and even if you don't do criminal law, as a lawyer, you know that.

I am stating the facts as they are.  Even attempted murder would likely be too high an accusation to reach a gulty verdict.

But by all means, let's prosecute all police shootings as attempted genocide, it will certainly do some good to some people who can then lament that justice does not work.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 02, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
The protests do not "have to stop" because the right to protest is constitutionally protected.  A state officer or agency who conditions a reasonable request from citizens to meet to discuss the agency's conduct of its official duties on the waiver of a constitutional right is acting contrary to the Constitution.
hmm.  I have my doubts about this.

There are violent protests going on.  It is impossible to discern whom is behind it.  Are they independant actors showing up for the fun of it?  A loosely organized group in hidden DarkWeb chatrooms coordinating their attacks?  A response to reading what is written in Dark Web neo-nazis/far right boards?

The fact is, the protests are protected so long as they are not violent.  And no politician or police officer has a duty to obey a mob, you know that as well as I do.

BLM says they ain't the ones looting. Fine. Let them stop their organized protests so there is no more motive for looters to systematically appear then.  If the looting continues, they can claim it ain't their fault, they ain't orchestrating protests. 

If the politicians still refuses to meet them, then they return to the street.


Quote
If a group of concerned citizens who are otherwise law-abiding seeks dialogue with police in an effort to defuse violence it is irresponsible and a dereliction of duty for the police to refuse.
At this moment, it is unknown if they are law abiding.  They say there are against the violence, but they do nothing to prevent it.  Police has no obligation to meet their demands, especially since they are unspecific.

If a police department acts immediatly by suspending an officer after a shooting and there is a genuine investigation going on into the events, therre is no reason to protest that.

When the same thing comes over&over, I understand the group to want change.  But simply protesting with signs "DEFUND THE POLICE" ain't gonna work.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:32:32 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 02, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
I hope that Democratic city leaders in the US are not going to help snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2020.  Losing control and order is a deadly sin for any political leader, and is definitely a very effective way to activate the fear reflex that turns people fascist.
I fear, just like Valmy, this is where it will lead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 02, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 02, 2020, 02:52:12 AM
What leverage do they have when the protests stop?
they can resume the protests if their goal of meeting the politicians does not materialize despite the promises.

protesting won't change anything and change will take time.  Disbanding the police is not realistic in a large city like Portland, too much chaos involved.  Defunding the police, if by that they mean less money for surplus military equipment and more money on social services, that is a realistic goals.  If they mean "gut them until there's no money for police work", it is not.

Got it. So those uppity bastards should just accept their lot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 02, 2020, 06:52:18 PM
BLM and BtB rallies in town this weekend.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 06:56:21 PM
Ban the bomb?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 02, 2020, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 06:56:21 PM
Ban the bomb?  :huh:

Back the Blue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on September 02, 2020, 08:36:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 02, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
I hope that Democratic city leaders in the US are not going to help snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2020.  Losing control and order is a deadly sin for any political leader, and is definitely a very effective way to activate the fear reflex that turns people fascist.
If losing order is a worse sin than extrajudicial murder then there's no point in worrying about people turning to fascism.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 08:44:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 02, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Got it. So those uppity bastards should just accept their lot.
:roll:

At some points, the Americans will have to decide if they want change or if they want protests.  If it's protests you want, keep doing things the way you are, it is working great so far.

I'd rather see my neighbours living in a safe environment, and electing someone else than Donald Trumpesque figures to lead them, but it's your choice, ultimately, I'm just a dirty, stupid&racist foreigner.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 08:45:39 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.
See, that's why a government can't allow protesters to meet them while they keep protesting.  It's a non-ending cycle that paralyzes government and societies.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 02, 2020, 09:04:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 02, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 02, 2020, 02:52:12 AM
What leverage do they have when the protests stop?
they can resume the protests if their goal of meeting the politicians does not materialize despite the promises.

protesting won't change anything and change will take time.  Disbanding the police is not realistic in a large city like Portland, too much chaos involved.  Defunding the police, if by that they mean less money for surplus military equipment and more money on social services, that is a realistic goals.  If they mean "gut them until there's no money for police work", it is not.

Got it. So those uppity bastards should just accept their lot.

You have to understand, g. There's a right way and a wrong way to protest. And whatever the BLM people do is wrong. See: Koepernick.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 09:25:48 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 08:45:39 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.
See, that's why a government can't allow protesters to meet them while they keep protesting.  It's a non-ending cycle that paralyzes government and societies.

France is doing alright.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:33:08 PM
Quote from: Maximus on September 02, 2020, 08:36:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 02, 2020, 12:04:18 PM
I hope that Democratic city leaders in the US are not going to help snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2020.  Losing control and order is a deadly sin for any political leader, and is definitely a very effective way to activate the fear reflex that turns people fascist.
If losing order is a worse sin than extrajudicial murder then there's no point in worrying about people turning to fascism.

What if losing order results in multiple murders?

Anyway, this is a false dichotomy. Extrajudicial murder is not being condoned as a tool to keep order.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 02, 2020, 09:47:35 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:33:08 PM
Anyway, this is a false dichotomy. Extrajudicial murder is not being condoned as a tool to keep order.

Extrajudicial murder is being regarded by the Republican Party as an acceptable byproduct of keeping minorities in their place.  I am quite ready to believe that Republicans, hell, even Mitch McConnell, would be happy with no extrajudicial murders as long as there were also no uppity minorities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 02, 2020, 09:54:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 02, 2020, 09:47:35 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:33:08 PM
Anyway, this is a false dichotomy. Extrajudicial murder is not being condoned as a tool to keep order.

Extrajudicial murder is being regarded by the Republican Party as an acceptable byproduct of keeping minorities in their place.  I am quite ready to believe that Republicans, hell, even Mitch McConnell, would be happy with no extrajudicial murders as long as there were also no uppity minorities.

I totally agree with this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 02, 2020, 09:55:49 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

You know, I thought about looking it up, and then went, "Why deprive one of these assholes the opportunity of correcting me?" And look!

:P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:15:46 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 02, 2020, 09:55:49 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

You know, I thought about looking it up, and then went, "Why deprive one of these assholes the opportunity of correcting me?" And look!

:P
it is all I have to live for so thanks!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
am I....
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 02, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
Friendly reminder that Kaepernick didn't vote.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 02, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
Friendly reminder that Kaepernick didn't vote.

In what? The NFLPA?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 11:46:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
am I....

Nope. :console:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 02, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
Friendly reminder that Kaepernick didn't vote.

In what? The NFLPA?
in 2016 elections
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 11:46:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
am I....

Nope. :console:
someone let Teach know.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 12:06:39 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 02, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
Friendly reminder that Kaepernick didn't vote.

In what? The NFLPA?
in 2016 elections

So did 40%+ of the voters. Anyway I regret that he did not see fit to carry out his civic duty. But why do I need to be reminded of that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 03, 2020, 12:15:29 AM
I don't know, and stop yelling at me. I'm only the messenger.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.

France needs a Thatcher.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:13:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2020, 12:06:39 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 02, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
Friendly reminder that Kaepernick didn't vote.

In what? The NFLPA?
in 2016 elections

So did 40%+ of the voters. Anyway I regret that he did not see fit to carry out his civic duty. But why do I need to be reminded of that?

Merithyn sarcastically said that BLM and Kaepernick are protesting wrong, and indeed Kaepernick is either an idiot or a nihilist.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 03, 2020, 02:16:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 02, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
Friendly reminder that Kaepernick didn't vote.

In what? The NFLPA?

Why would you reply to that troll?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 09:25:48 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 02, 2020, 08:45:39 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.
See, that's why a government can't allow protesters to meet them while they keep protesting.  It's a non-ending cycle that paralyzes government and societies.

France is doing alright.

The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 02:35:56 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 11:46:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
am I....

Nope. :console:
someone let Teach know.

I've seen your picture.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 03, 2020, 02:37:56 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 02:35:56 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 11:46:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
am I....

Nope. :console:
someone let Teach know.

I've seen your picture.

He really is a magnificent bastard, isn't he? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 03, 2020, 03:19:06 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 03, 2020, 02:37:56 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 02:35:56 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 11:57:37 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 02, 2020, 11:46:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 02, 2020, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 02, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
White people don't even know how to spell Kaepernick

But you're white...
am I....

Nope. :console:
someone let Teach know.

I've seen your picture.

He really is a magnificent bastard, isn't he? :)
:blush: :hug:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).

The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:28:08 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.

France needs a Thatcher.

Coal mines are already closed, and having a Malouines-like war would be really a huge stroke of luck.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:33:04 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).

The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.

Try the original demands i.e cancelling the cynical and "classist" rise of diesel taxes while gasoline would have a much lower increase under the thing guise of environmentalism. So no more diesel vehicles in Paris for tradesmen but not problem for gas-guzzling SUVs!  :lol:

At least, the hike was suspended, though it may have been intended as just postponed.

Macron's low legitimacy and high unpopularity is another matter, fueled by other reform attempts.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.
Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.

I think they're a symptom of social divides and fairly long-standing issues in France that we've all heard of that Macron particularly exemplifies. But, you know, I think they're more social unrest than a protest movement and more interesting than anything else. I mean I don't think this is Macron specific - but I think he exemplifies certain traits of the French elite and arguably the current Republic - and while the GJs have extremists in their number (but almost by definition people unhappy with the current "system" do - they are the periphery). There's something of them that is more the people who left out of that and arguably challenge its legitimacy.

As I say I don't think it's a million miles away from the Brexit vote or the fragmentation of mainstream politics in Italy, that's been expressed in certain votes in the UK and Italy. It's being expressed more through social unrest and protest in France.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:38:43 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:33:04 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).

The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.

Try the original demands i.e cancelling the cynical and "classist" rise of diesel taxes while gasoline would have a much lower increase under the thing guise of ecology. So no more diesel vehicles in Paris for tradesmen but not problem for gas-guzzling SUVs!  :lol:

At least, the hike was suspended, though it may have been intended as just postponed.

Macron's low legitimacy and high unpopularity is another matter, fueled by other reform attempts.

The fuel taxes were a demand of some Yellow Vests but there's no way of knowing what fraction. Some wanted more environmentalism, some less, some wanted a socialist overthrow, some wanted a race war.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:46:12 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:38:43 AM

The fuel taxes were a demand of some Yellow Vests but there's no way of knowing what fraction. Some wanted more environmentalism, some less, some wanted a socialist overthrow, some wanted a race war.

Not some, it was the early demand which started the movement. Macron let it unanswered hoping for the protests to stall and/or degenerate. Guess what, it degenerated and when people saw Macron caved in after a early martial pose, others with their agenda of their own, either political (extremes mostly- or just delinquents from the banlieues, sensed weakness and joined the fray. Lack of competence among the Macron clique did not help cf. Interior minister Castaner.
Once the genie was out of the bottle, yes it was difficult to comply with all the accumulated demands.

The early movement in the province was a family-friendly affair with lots of pensioners. In fact, the GJ movement originated from the part of France that does not profit from globalisation i.e globalized city centres, and does not get social money to keep the peace, i.e the banlieues. No public transportation in middle and small town France so fuel taxes hikes are hardly felt there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Yeah, I'm curious what you'd say is the issue. If it's simply "police shouldn't kill black people" then they won before they started- that is already illegal. When it comes to actions the government can take, there isn't a clear unified message.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:02:33 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Yeah, I'm curious what you'd say is the issue. If it's simply "police shouldn't kill black people" then they won before they started- that is already illegal. When it comes to actions the government can take, there isn't a clear unified message.

:mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 03, 2020, 07:05:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:02:33 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Yeah, I'm curious what you'd say is the issue. If it's simply "police shouldn't kill black people" then they won before they started- that is already illegal. When it comes to actions the government can take, there isn't a clear unified message.

:mellow:

Clearly people can't be bothered.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:05:58 AM
Why don't you post a rebuttal then? 

What actionable demands is the movement making?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:10:07 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:28:08 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.

France needs a Thatcher.

Coal mines are already closed, and having a Malouines-like war would be really a huge stroke of luck.

Also, history seems to look less and less kind on her. But still, a leader with the will and the skills to break the constant protests would be nice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 07:11:54 AM
Demands are different from issues. They're not medieval petitioners with their pleas for the authorities to consider or a political party outlining their reform agenda. It's a protest movement.

The issue they're protesting seems pretty clear: police shoot black people (especially black men) despite it being illegal - when was the last time a cop was jailed for this, by the by?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:16:07 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:10:07 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:28:08 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.

France needs a Thatcher.

Coal mines are already closed, and having a Malouines-like war would be really a huge stroke of luck.

Also, history seems to look less and less kind on her. But still, a leader with the will and the skills to break the constant protests would be nice.

French de-industrialisation happened without Thatcher-like people so she would not be that useful nowadays, anyways. And the unintended  "green" side-effects of her policies would be largely moot in France, given place nuclear energy has in France.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:16:40 AM
Protests that aren't aiming to influence a decision seem rather pointless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 07:19:49 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:16:40 AM
Protests that aren't aiming to influence a decision seem rather pointless.
But protests influence through the force of the protest. It raises an issues political salience, if they're on "your" side they hold your feet to the fire, if they're on the "other" side it forces attention onto that issue.

That's a different type of influence than lobbying or think tanks which are maybe a bit more policy-focused.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:24:34 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:16:07 AM
French de-industrialisation happened without Thatcher-like people so she would not be that useful nowadays, anyways. And the unintended  "green" side-effects of her policies would be largely moot in France, given place nuclear energy has in France.

Yes, seeing the shitfest that is the UK 30 years after Thatcher makes it quite clear that no-one needs a Thatcher.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:30:14 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:24:34 AM
the shitfest that is the UK

:unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:24:34 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:16:07 AM
French de-industrialisation happened without Thatcher-like people so she would not be that useful nowadays, anyways. And the unintended  "green" side-effects of her policies would be largely moot in France, given place nuclear energy has in France.

Yes, seeing the shitfest that is the UK 30 years after Thatcher makes it quite clear that no-one needs a Thatcher.

Nice strawman. :)
However, iff you meant that a new/updated Thatcher, as bad as it was for the Tyrs and other proles, would have spared the UK a chaotic Brexit compared to the current Tory luminaries, then yes maybe Thatcher was not so bad.

PS: real problem was going full socialist for France between 1981 and 1983 when it too late to do so and simply bad timing. Might have been not so bad during the Glorious Thirties which had themselves a pretty high level of state intervention in France and elsewhere. OTOH, that's one of the few electoral promises Mitterrand kept.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on September 03, 2020, 07:35:52 AM
Eh? Thatcher founded the modern brexit movement. With her we would be just as surely heading for disaster.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:39:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2020, 07:35:52 AM
Eh? Thatcher founded the modern brexit movement. With her we would be just as surely heading for disaster.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1JSK4OX4AAhbOa.jpg)

Thatcher also milked Europe as much at it could (30 % rebate). She was too smart to leave the EEC/EU in a chaotic way.
I am sure she would have gotten more concessions, unlike say, Cameron.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:41:27 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:30:19 AM
Nice strawman. :)
However, iff you meant that a new/updated Thatcher, as bad as it was for the Tyrs and other proles, would have spared the UK a chaotic Brexit compared to the current Tory luminaries, then yes maybe Thatcher was not so bad.

:) I'm not entirely serious, Thatcher is one of my political idols, but I am more and more coming to the conclusion that there were a lot of bad with all the good she did.

My point from the beginning was that France needs someone to stand up to all these frivolous protests whenever someone tries to change pensions, labour laws or whatever.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:46:04 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 07:41:27 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:30:19 AM
Nice strawman. :)
However, iff you meant that a new/updated Thatcher, as bad as it was for the Tyrs and other proles, would have spared the UK a chaotic Brexit compared to the current Tory luminaries, then yes maybe Thatcher was not so bad.

:) I'm not entirely serious, Thatcher is one of my political idols, but I am more and more coming to the conclusion that there were a lot of bad with all the good she did.

My point from the beginning was that France needs someone to stand up to all these frivolous protests whenever someone tries to change pensions, labour laws or whatever.

Incrementalism in reforms works better than virago posturing in France. Reforms under Sarkozy were adopted this way. Macron just may have (re-)discovered it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:39:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2020, 07:35:52 AM
Eh? Thatcher founded the modern brexit movement. With her we would be just as surely heading for disaster.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1JSK4OX4AAhbOa.jpg)

Thatcher also milked Europe as much at it could (30 % rebate). She was too smart to leave the EEC/EU in a chaotic way.
I am sure she would have gotten more concessions, unlike say, Cameron.

His counter point will be the later Bruges speech

https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:56:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:48:43 AM


https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699

I know, but it is still not a pre-Brexit stance. Anti soon-to-be Maastricht EU perhaps as implicitly criticizing Delors' ideas
She even acknowledges historical links to Europe, much to Brexiteers' chagrin

QuoteWe British are as much heirs to the legacy of European culture as any other nation. Our links to the rest of Europe, the continent of Europe, have been the dominant factor in our history.
For three hundred years, we were part of the Roman Empire and our maps still trace the straight lines of the roads the Romans built.
Our ancestors—Celts, Saxons, Danes—came from the Continent. [end p1]
Our nation was—in that favourite Community word— "restructured" under the Norman and Angevin rule in the eleventh and twelfth centuries.

QuoteThe European Community belongs to all its members.
It must reflect the traditions and aspirations of all its members.
And let me be quite clear.
Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community.

No way Brexiteers would agree with the bolded part.

Maggie not in favor of a supra-national Europe? Obviously, but that does not make her a proto-Brexiteer.

https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107332 (https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107332)

PS: I like the "restructured" euphemism for the Normand invasion.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on September 03, 2020, 08:11:35 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 07:39:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2020, 07:35:52 AM
Eh? Thatcher founded the modern brexit movement. With her we would be just as surely heading for disaster.

[img width=681 D1JSK4OX4AAhbOa.jpg[/img]

Thatcher also milked Europe as much at it could (30 % rebate). She was too smart to leave the EEC/EU in a chaotic way.
I am sure she would have gotten more concessions, unlike say, Cameron.

His counter point will be the later Bruges speech

https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699

:yes:

It's shocking how little the events of 1988 are known. The whole thing went completely unmentioned during the brexit referendum. Thanks to Jaques Delors British politics did a complete 180 on Europe.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 08:29:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:48:43 AM
His counter point will be the later Bruges speech

https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699
Yeah but the Brexit-encouraging was more of a post-PM thing and a factor of internal Tory politics.

She was removed by her (pro-European/pro-ERM) cabinet because she opposed entering the ERM and, in retrospect, she was right. Her two fears about it were that it would open the pound to speculation - which it did - and that it would be a step on the road to a more powerful European Central Bank and single currency which the UK would be expected to join - which would have been right if we didn't fall out of the ERM. Also key was Germany, she was very suspicious of a reunified Germany and basically thought you need to stage it more slowly - establish multi-party democracy and capitalism in East Germany and, eventually, move to unification. I think her diary says here first thought was "this is wonderful, everything we ver dreamed of, and the people are doing it, not the government", seconds later apparently she thought "My goodness! This is dangerous! We'd better be sure this doesn't get out of hand." It's the anti-German feeling that's really key, she actually got a group of historians together to discuss what German reunification might mean for Europe. Needless to say this strand of her thinking was encouraged by Mitterand in true machivellian style :lol: :wub:

She started to be swayed by the idea of ERM as a disciplinary measure on UK governments (a bit like Italy or France in theory) because her government was struggling with that. But her fundamental issue was if Europe has good German economic management, it would mean the Germans had too much powers; if Germany didn't have that power, then Europe wouldn't benefit from German economic management and end up with spendthrift policies led by undisciplined countries like France (or Britain). She could not reconcile unified Germany with Europe which is why she starts pushing hard for expansion of the EU to the East before almost anyone else does, and that became British policy under both Tory and Labour governments.

And in a weird way she was kind of right that reunification of Germany caused issues for the UK. It was the 1:1 conversion of the Ostmark that caused German interest rates to rise, the Bank of England then tried to defend Sterling but it led to a Sterling crisis and, despite raising interest rates by 2% in one day, Sterling was forced out of the ERM.

I don't think there's any doubt that whatever you think of Thatcher she would be a significantly more competent PM than Theresa May or Boris Johnson (or, in my view, Cameron). You might not like what she'd do but I don't think "chaotic" is a word that's often applied to her government.

Edit: It's also a bit crazy to guess - for example Nigel Lawson was her Chancelllor in 1988 and he was a passionate advocate of ERM, of European federalism and of the UK entering a single currency. By 2016 he was a prominent Brexiteer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 09:10:20 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 08:29:01 AM


She was removed by her (pro-European/pro-ERM) cabinet because she opposed entering the ERM and, in retrospect, she was right. Her two fears about it were that it would open the pound to speculation - which it did - and that it would be a step on the road to a more powerful European Central Bank and single currency which the UK would be expected to join - which would have been right if we didn't fall out of the ERM. Also key was Germany, she was very suspicious of a reunified Germany and basically thought you need to stage it more slowly - establish multi-party democracy and capitalism in East Germany and, eventually, move to unification. I think her diary says here first thought was "this is wonderful, everything we ver dreamed of, and the people are doing it, not the government", seconds later apparently she thought "My goodness! This is dangerous! We'd better be sure this doesn't get out of hand." It's the anti-German feeling that's really key, she actually got a group of historians together to discuss what German reunification might mean for Europe. Needless to say this strand of her thinking was encouraged by Mitterand in true machivellian style :lol: :wub:



Not machiavellian (for once) from Mitterrand, he more or less shared her views on this one matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 09:10:20 AM
Not machiavellian (for once) from Mitterrand, he more or less shared her views on this one matter.
Yeah they shared doubts and fears about Germany but their views and solutions were a bit different, no? He was encouraging Delors because he saw a unified Germany as dangerous unless it could be "contained" within a united Europe; Thatcher thought a united Europe was too dangerous if it contained a unified Germany.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 09:51:22 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 09:10:20 AM
Not machiavellian (for once) from Mitterrand, he more or less shared her views on this one matter.
Yeah they shared doubts and fears about Germany but their views and solutions were a bit different, no? He was encouraging Delors because he saw a unified Germany as dangerous unless it could be "contained" within a united Europe; Thatcher thought a united Europe was too dangerous if it contained a unified Germany.

Since there was no other way, wind of change blowing etc., he used Delors' solution to mitigate the feared consequences.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 03, 2020, 10:41:56 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 09:10:20 AM
Not machiavellian (for once) from Mitterrand, he more or less shared her views on this one matter.
Yeah they shared doubts and fears about Germany but their views and solutions were a bit different, no? He was encouraging Delors because he saw a unified Germany as dangerous unless it could be "contained" within a united Europe; Thatcher thought a united Europe was too dangerous if it contained a unified Germany.

I remember all the fear in the early 90s about a unified Germany and how it would tilt far to the right with the "fall of communism" and become all aggressive and stuff.  Had a couple professors that spent extra time on the topic of the Morgenthau Plan and how it was a missed opportunity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 03, 2020, 02:14:12 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 07:11:54 AM
Demands are different from issues. They're not medieval petitioners with their pleas for the authorities to consider or a political party outlining their reform agenda. It's a protest movement.

The issue they're protesting seems pretty clear: police shoot black people (especially black men) despite it being illegal - when was the last time a cop was jailed for this, by the by?

Uh, the cop who suffocated George Floyd is in jail.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 03, 2020, 02:14:12 PM
Uh, the cop who suffocated George Floyd is in jail.
Sorry I meant convicted - because I was thinking of him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 03, 2020, 02:14:12 PM
Uh, the cop who suffocated George Floyd is in jail.
Sorry I meant convicted - because I was thinking of him.

Protest-riots have no bearing on whether a cop gets convicted or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 04, 2020, 12:52:07 AM
Saw this posted with the byline "Y'all-Qaeda":

(https://i.redd.it/4z6du1y3tzk51.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 04, 2020, 12:59:11 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
Protest-riots have no bearing on whether a cop gets convicted or not.

Agreed, the illegality of the act and the evidence in question should. But that has not been happening so we have protests.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 04, 2020, 04:17:53 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/michael-forest-reinoeh-killed-portland-shooting/2020/09/04/652f6e98-ed44-11ea-99a1-71343d03bc29_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_reinoehl-1227am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

QuoteSuspect in Portland slaying killed when authorities moved to arrest him, official says

A vocal proponent of the far-left antifa movement who was suspected of fatally shooting a supporter of a far-right group in Portland, Ore., this weekend was shot and killed in a confrontation with federal law enforcement Thursday, the U.S. Marshals Service said.

The agency said Reinoehl was shot by police near Olympia, Wash., after drawing a weapon as officers tried to arrest him.

"The fugitive task force located Reinoehl in Olympia and attempted to peacefully arrest him," said Jurgen R. Soekhoe, a U.S. Marshals spokesman, in a statement. "Initial reports indicate the suspect produced a firearm, threatening the lives of law enforcement officers. Task force members responded to the threat and struck the suspect who was pronounced dead at the scene."

Investigators were seeking to take Michael Forest Reinoehl into custody in connection with the fatal shooting of 39-year-old Aaron J. Danielson on Saturday after confrontations between supporters of President Trump and Black Lives Matter counterprotesters.

In a news conference late Thursday, Lt. Ray Brady of the Thurston County Sheriff's Office said the shooting happened after members of the Pacific Northwest Violent Offender Task Force approached a "known homicide suspect" outside an apartment complex near Lacey, Wash., which neighbors Olympia.

At least four members of the task force fired at the suspect in "a very brief amount of time," he said, as he approached his car around 7 p.m. When he fled, officers gave chase and then fired at him again. It was unclear whether the suspect ever fired a gun at police, Brady said.

The four officers who fired their weapons were from the Oregon Department of Corrections, the Pierce County Sheriff's Department and the Lakewood Police Department. U.S. Marshals were present, but did not fire their weapons, Brady said. No law enforcement officers were injured during the confrontation.

Since the Thurston County Sheriff's Office was not involved in the shooting, it would be the lead agency in what is expected to be a multiagency investigation of the case, Brady added.

News of Reinoehl's death was first reported by the New York Times.

In an interview aired Thursday on "Vice News Tonight," Reinoehl said he believed he and a friend were in danger when 39-year-old Aaron J. Danielson was shot and killed. In the footage Vice aired, Reinoehl strongly implied he was the shooter, though if he said so directly, that was not shown.

One person who asserted he was with Danielson during the encounter has previously said he did not realize a gun was being pointed in his direction before shots rang out and believes he and Danielson were targeted because they wore hats showing their affiliation with the far-right Patriot Prayer group — apparently disputing Reinoehl's account.

"I was confident that I did not hit anyone innocent, and I made my exit," Reinoehl told Vice News when asked about what happened immediately after the incident.

"I see a civil war right around the corner," he added later. "That shot felt like the beginning of a war."

Vice News reported that Reinoehl approached a freelance journalist, who contacted the outlet. Reinoehl's sister had previously told The Washington Post that police asked her if her brother was the person captured in images of the incident that circulated online.

"You know, lots of lawyers suggest that I shouldn't even be saying anything, but I feel it's important that the world at least gets a little bit of what's really going on," Reinoehl told Vice News. "I had no choice. I mean, I, I had a choice. I could have sat there and watched them kill a friend of mine of color. But I wasn't going to do that."

Police had not publicly accused Reinoehl, 48, of any crimes as of Thursday night, and they had said little about the shooting of Danielson. The Post's efforts to reach him had been unsuccessful.

A Portland police spokeswoman said Thursday only that the investigation is ongoing. Friends of Danielson, who also went by "Jay," alleged that he might have been targeted because he was wearing a hat that bore the Patriot Prayer insignia.

The incident came after a caravan of Trump supporters, including members of the Patriot Prayer group, made their way through Portland, sparking skirmishes with those who objected to their presence. Portland has seen more than three months of often violent protests after the death of George Floyd in police custody in Minneapolis, and the shooting seemed to intensify the persistent tension.

Video posted online of the encounter left few clear answers about what happened. In one video, men can be heard shouting, followed in rapid succession by the sound of something spraying and then two gunshots. In another video, shouts of "We got a couple right here" and "He's pulling it out" can be heard before the gunfire.

In a taped interview posted online, Chandler Pappas, who said he was with Danielson during the shooting, said whoever fired the shots "recognized our Patriot Prayer hats," and just before gunfire rang out, he heard someone say, "We've got a couple of 'em right here. Pull it out. Pull it out." He said it "didn't even register that somebody was pointing a gun at us until the shots went off."

Pappas told The Post that Danielson was "killed in cold blood" but did not provide other details. A representative for Pappas referred a reporter to a Fox News interview Thursday night in which Pappas said of Reinoehl's assertion: "I think their whole campaign is disinformation. . . . I know they will not be able to produce anything to corroborate that story, whatsoever."

Reinoehl told Vice News that he had seen the caravan of trucks with flags on them earlier in the day, and that the scene generally provoked him.

"I immediately think that they're out to get me," he said. He said someone later called him to tell him to come downtown because "security" might be necessary," and when he arrived and saw the trucks, "It felt like the beginning of a war."

Joey Gibson, the founder of Patriot Prayer, said Danielson owned a local moving company and — as far as he knew — had no confrontations with Reinoehl earlier in the night, and that the incident occurred after the caravan had broken up. Reinoehl insisted his actions were "totally justified," and that the incident was related to the protest.

"Not to mention the fact that they say that they don't know who it was. That's a lie," Reinoehl said. "Within an hour, Facebook and Twitter and all that had my face and name labeled as the shooter."

Justin Dunlap, a lighting technician from nearby Vancouver, Wash., who recorded one of the widely circulated videos and broadcast it live on Facebook, previously told The Post that he heard yelling and saw mace being sprayed. Then gunshots rang out.

Dunlap, 44, said that when the gunshots were fired, "the guy who had sprayed the bear mace turned and took three or four steps and then went face down. While he was doing that, the two that he had bear-maced ran back in my general direction and kind of went around the corner."

Reinoehl's Instagram page indicates that he had been attending Black Lives Matter demonstrations in recent months. He often posted photos and videos using the hashtag "blacklivesmatter" and indicated a distaste for Trump, the police and Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler (D). In a lengthy post on June 16, he wrote that he was "100% ANTIFA all the way!" and hinted of violence.

"I am willing to fight for my brothers and sisters! Even if some of them are too ignorant to realize what antifa truly stands for. We do not want violence but we will not run from it either!" he wrote, adding later, "We truly have an opportunity right now to fix everything. But it will be a fight like no other! It will be a war and like all wars there will be casualties."

In the Vice News interview, Reinoehl said he was not a "member" of Antifa, but supported the ideology.

The Oregonian reported that one of its photographers had gotten a picture of him Friday night during a demonstration outside Wheeler's home.

Court records indicate Reinoehl was cited on July 5 for possessing a loaded firearm in a public place, resisting arrest and interfering with a peace officer, though the case was later dropped. The Oregonian reported that stemmed from an incident during a protest.

Later that month, Reinoehl was apparently back at protests. Showing a bloody bandage on his arm, he told Bloomberg News in a video posted online that he intervened in an altercation to pull a gun away from someone and was shot. Reinoehl said on the video that he had military experience and had been "working security" to try to protect people in the crowd. He said he had brought his daughter to the demonstrations.

"It's escalating to a point where they're trying to disrupt us in every way that's illegal," Reinoehl said, asserting that people were shooting at protesters and starting fights.

Reinoehl's sister, who asked that her name be withheld because her family had been receiving threats, said she had not had contact with her brother in three years. But she said soon after the incident — when online sleuths had apparently figured out her brother's identity from videos of the shooting — she was awakened to callers threatening to harm her and her family.

The sister said she was soon put in touch with police in Portland, who asked her if she could identify Reinoehl in images captured of the incident that had been circulating online. She said she told law enforcement that the images appeared to show her brother, and they later warned her they might soon have to release information to the press about the case.

The sister said even when they were in closer contact, Reinoehl, a professional snowboarder who had also done construction work, was a "nebulous figure who showed up every once in a while demanding money from Mom and then disappearing again." She and her mother both said they broke contact with Reinoehl years ago, frustrated by his frequently coming around to ask for money.

In June, Reinoehl was arrested for driving under the influence, reckless endangerment of a person and unlawful possession of a firearm after an Oregon State Police trooper saw him appearing to race another car — which investigators would later find was being driven by Reinoehl's 17-year-old son — on Interstate 84 in Oregon.

According to a police account of the incident, the two cars were traveling at 111 mph. Police said that after they stopped and searched Reinoehl's car, they found marijuana, prescription pills and a loaded, concealed pistol for which Reinoehl did not have a license. They said Reinoehl "showed signs of impairment" and was traveling with his 11-year-old daughter, a kitten and a large dog.

The sister said she did not know Reinoehl had become so actively involved in recent racial-justice demonstrations, as his social media posts seem to suggest. She said she was dismayed that some people seemed to be hailing the killing because the victim was a supporter of the president and that others were trying to "use it for their political agendas."

"No one should ever celebrate the death of anyone, even in the rare circumstances where a person deserves it, it's never a celebratory moment," she said, adding later: "There's too much hate and violence in this country right now, and people think the solution is more hate and violence, but that's never been the case. Violence begets violence, and hate begets hate."

The sister said that she had received dozens of threats, and they seemed to be coming from supporters of the Patriot Prayer group. One person, she said, sent her husband a picture of her with the text, "Patriot Prayer says hello."

"They were saying 'blood for blood,' if we didn't turn him over, our family was in danger," the sister said.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 04, 2020, 09:33:19 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

Cameras probably malfunctioned, or the footage was erased by a glitch. :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

So, to put a bit of perspective on this for you...

The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force. They were also working directly with the former Portland Police Bureau Chief (who lost his job because of it). They are in tight with the PPB. When we heard what happened, a bunch of us immediately said, "That guy's dead." Not one of us believed that he would be taken alive given what happened.

I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I'm just saying that I am interested in seeing the body cam footage. Maybe the guy decided to go out in a blaze of glory and the police will be found to be 100% in the right. I'm just saying that I'm not in the least bit surprised that the man is now dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 04, 2020, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

If that is what happened then the body camera footage would show that is clearly what happened and it would show they are justified. Any killing of an American citizen by the state deserves an investigation no matter how justified it might be claimed to be.

Edit: and hey look there is even a context specific to Portland...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
yeah make sense I am just worried a general anti-police sentiment will take hold in your country, which would be really detrimental, regardless of how many cruel racist shitheads there are in the force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on September 04, 2020, 10:20:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2020, 12:59:11 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
Protest-riots have no bearing on whether a cop gets convicted or not.

Agreed, the illegality of the act and the evidence in question should. But that has not been happening so we have protests.

I think this is qualified immunity in action, no? If we think things are bad now let's wait and see how exciting they get when Chauvin gets off.

Was listening to Brett Weinstein opine on the noble dark webz ( :lol:)that if Chauvin doesnt get a fair trial, Maoists will have uninvented the USA. Made me chuckle a bit. Oh Brett.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 04, 2020, 10:28:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
yeah make sense I am just worried a general anti-police sentiment will take hold in your country, which would be really detrimental, regardless of how many cruel racist shitheads there are in the force.

It is a real problem because the more unpopular the police get in some circles the more they tend to draw their membership entirely from other circles.

But this has been going on for a very long time, there is a reason they ended up wearing body cameras in the first place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 04, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
yeah make sense I am just worried a general anti-police sentiment will take hold in your country, which would be really detrimental, regardless of how many cruel racist shitheads there are in the force.

Maybe if there were a general anti-police sentiment, there would actually be political will to make changes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 04, 2020, 01:34:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2020, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

If that is what happened then the body camera footage would show that is clearly what happened and it would show they are justified. Any killing of an American citizen by the state deserves an investigation no matter how justified it might be claimed to be.

Edit: and hey look there is even a context specific to Portland...

Yup
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
Protest-riots have no bearing on whether a cop gets convicted or not.

Protests do, however.  DAs think more seriously about charging criminal cops if they think that the public is watching them and waiting for them to do so.  DAs don't like charging cops (they work with cops all the time), but they even more don't like to fail to be re-elected.  Protests negatively affect their re-election chances.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

So, to put a bit of perspective on this for you...

The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force. They were also working directly with the former Portland Police Bureau Chief (who lost his job because of it). They are in tight with the PPB. When we heard what happened, a bunch of us immediately said, "That guy's dead." Not one of us believed that he would be taken alive given what happened.

I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I'm just saying that I am interested in seeing the body cam footage. Maybe the guy decided to go out in a blaze of glory and the police will be found to be 100% in the right. I'm just saying that I'm not in the least bit surprised that the man is now dead.

How do the Portland Police mind-control the police in Olympia, Washington?

I agree that its no surprise that the guy went out in a blaze of glory, given the way he talked.  But I think that he'd have gone down the same way if he'd murdered someone in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 09:03:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2020, 10:28:32 AM
It is a real problem because the more unpopular the police get in some circles the more they tend to draw their membership entirely from other circles.

But this has been going on for a very long time, there is a reason they ended up wearing body cameras in the first place.

You'd think that honest cops would be the people most anxious to see all of this murder by police end.  No beat cop benefited when Freddy Grey was murdered by cops in Baltimore in 2015.  But they've all suffered from the loss of credibility and cooperation from the residents of the city. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 05, 2020, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 04, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
yeah make sense I am just worried a general anti-police sentiment will take hold in your country, which would be really detrimental, regardless of how many cruel racist shitheads there are in the force.

Maybe if there were a general anti-police sentiment, there would actually be political will to make changes.
yeah, that's what happenned in the USSR under Staline.  There was a general anti-police and anti-kgb sentiment that lead to change.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 05, 2020, 06:15:58 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 05, 2020, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 04, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
yeah make sense I am just worried a general anti-police sentiment will take hold in your country, which would be really detrimental, regardless of how many cruel racist shitheads there are in the force.

Maybe if there were a general anti-police sentiment, there would actually be political will to make changes.
yeah, that's what happenned in the USSR under Staline.  There was a general anti-police and anti-kgb sentiment that lead to change.

Was the change you are referring to the creation of the KGB, which did not exist in Stalin's USSR? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

So, to put a bit of perspective on this for you...

The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force. They were also working directly with the former Portland Police Bureau Chief (who lost his job because of it). They are in tight with the PPB. When we heard what happened, a bunch of us immediately said, "That guy's dead." Not one of us believed that he would be taken alive given what happened.

I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I'm just saying that I am interested in seeing the body cam footage. Maybe the guy decided to go out in a blaze of glory and the police will be found to be 100% in the right. I'm just saying that I'm not in the least bit surprised that the man is now dead.

How do the Portland Police mind-control the police in Olympia, Washington?

I agree that its no surprise that the guy went out in a blaze of glory, given the way he talked.  But I think that he'd have gone down the same way if he'd murdered someone in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

I don't think anyone was "mind-controlled". However, the Patriot Prayer group isn't just in Portland. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 05, 2020, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

So, to put a bit of perspective on this for you...

The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force. They were also working directly with the former Portland Police Bureau Chief (who lost his job because of it). They are in tight with the PPB. When we heard what happened, a bunch of us immediately said, "That guy's dead." Not one of us believed that he would be taken alive given what happened.

I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I'm just saying that I am interested in seeing the body cam footage. Maybe the guy decided to go out in a blaze of glory and the police will be found to be 100% in the right. I'm just saying that I'm not in the least bit surprised that the man is now dead.

How do the Portland Police mind-control the police in Olympia, Washington?

I agree that its no surprise that the guy went out in a blaze of glory, given the way he talked.  But I think that he'd have gone down the same way if he'd murdered someone in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

I don't think anyone was "mind-controlled". However, the Patriot Prayer group isn't just in Portland. :)

But the PPB, the actors in your scenario, do just exist in Portland, right?  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on September 05, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
It's not worth it Meri.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 11:04:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 05, 2020, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

So, to put a bit of perspective on this for you...

The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force. They were also working directly with the former Portland Police Bureau Chief (who lost his job because of it). They are in tight with the PPB. When we heard what happened, a bunch of us immediately said, "That guy's dead." Not one of us believed that he would be taken alive given what happened.

I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I'm just saying that I am interested in seeing the body cam footage. Maybe the guy decided to go out in a blaze of glory and the police will be found to be 100% in the right. I'm just saying that I'm not in the least bit surprised that the man is now dead.

How do the Portland Police mind-control the police in Olympia, Washington?

I agree that its no surprise that the guy went out in a blaze of glory, given the way he talked.  But I think that he'd have gone down the same way if he'd murdered someone in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

I don't think anyone was "mind-controlled". However, the Patriot Prayer group isn't just in Portland. :)

But the PPB, the actors in your scenario, do just exist in Portland, right?  :)

I actually said,  "The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force."  I'm sorry you assumed I meant just in Portland, or specifically just PPB. I didn't.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 05, 2020, 11:10:21 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 11:04:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 05, 2020, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 04, 2020, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 04, 2020, 09:28:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see the body camera footage on this arrest.

God forbid they opted to shoot an armed killer who was resisting arrest

So, to put a bit of perspective on this for you...

The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force. They were also working directly with the former Portland Police Bureau Chief (who lost his job because of it). They are in tight with the PPB. When we heard what happened, a bunch of us immediately said, "That guy's dead." Not one of us believed that he would be taken alive given what happened.

I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I'm just saying that I am interested in seeing the body cam footage. Maybe the guy decided to go out in a blaze of glory and the police will be found to be 100% in the right. I'm just saying that I'm not in the least bit surprised that the man is now dead.

How do the Portland Police mind-control the police in Olympia, Washington?

I agree that its no surprise that the guy went out in a blaze of glory, given the way he talked.  But I think that he'd have gone down the same way if he'd murdered someone in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

I don't think anyone was "mind-controlled". However, the Patriot Prayer group isn't just in Portland. :)

But the PPB, the actors in your scenario, do just exist in Portland, right?  :)

I actually said,  "The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force."  I'm sorry you assumed I meant just in Portland, or specifically just PPB. I didn't.

That sounds like QAnon level stuff there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on September 05, 2020, 11:29:33 PM
QuoteIn 2017, the FBI reported that white supremacists posed a "persistent threat of lethal violence" that has produced more fatalities than any other category of domestic terrorists since 2000.  Alarmingly, internal FBI policy documents have also warned agents assigned to domestic terrorism cases that the white supremacist and anti-government militia groups they investigate often have "active links" to law enforcement officials.
...
Since 2000, law enforcement officials with alleged connections to white supremacist groups or far-right militant activities have been exposed in Alabama, California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and elsewhere.
...
In 2019, a group of Proud Boys in Washington, DC, disrupted a permitted flag burning by members of a communist group in front of the White House, instigating a scuffle. DC police arrested two of the communists but escorted the Proud Boys away. Some officers fist-bumped them as they later walked into a bar. An investigation determined that the officers had not violated any police policies.
...
A police officer in Olympia, Washington, was placed under investigation for posing in a photograph with a heavily armed militia group called Three Percent of Washington. One of the militia members posted the photograph on social media, claiming that the officer and her partner had come over to thank them as they guarded a local shopping center

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 05, 2020, 11:42:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 05, 2020, 06:15:58 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 05, 2020, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 04, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
yeah make sense I am just worried a general anti-police sentiment will take hold in your country, which would be really detrimental, regardless of how many cruel racist shitheads there are in the force.

Maybe if there were a general anti-police sentiment, there would actually be political will to make changes.
yeah, that's what happenned in the USSR under Staline.  There was a general anti-police and anti-kgb sentiment that lead to change.

Was the change you are referring to the creation of the KGB, which did not exist in Stalin's USSR? :hmm:
Well, I did say the police too. ;)  But good point.  NKVD would have been more appropriate.

Anyhow.  The point stand.  Protests rarely change anything.  They're just a way to vent frustration.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 06, 2020, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 05, 2020, 11:04:42 PM
I actually said,  "The Patriot Prayer group has a lot of people in and around the police force."  I'm sorry you assumed I meant just in Portland, or specifically just PPB. I didn't.

When you said "the police force," I assumed that you mean "the police force."  I'm sorry that you didn't realize that you should have "various police forces" when you meant "various police forces."  The word "the" is the definite article, meaning that there is just one.  You used the singular "force," meaning just one.  English is difficult, but it is more difficult to communicate in when you are being snotty about your own mistakes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 06, 2020, 01:33:46 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 05, 2020, 11:29:33 PM
QuoteIn 2017, the FBI reported that white supremacists posed a "persistent threat of lethal violence" that has produced more fatalities than any other category of domestic terrorists since 2000.  Alarmingly, internal FBI policy documents have also warned agents assigned to domestic terrorism cases that the white supremacist and anti-government militia groups they investigate often have "active links" to law enforcement officials.
...
Since 2000, law enforcement officials with alleged connections to white supremacist groups or far-right militant activities have been exposed in Alabama, California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and elsewhere.
...
In 2019, a group of Proud Boys in Washington, DC, disrupted a permitted flag burning by members of a communist group in front of the White House, instigating a scuffle. DC police arrested two of the communists but escorted the Proud Boys away. Some officers fist-bumped them as they later walked into a bar. An investigation determined that the officers had not violated any police policies.
...
A police officer in Olympia, Washington, was placed under investigation for posing in a photograph with a heavily armed militia group called Three Percent of Washington. One of the militia members posted the photograph on social media, claiming that the officer and her partner had come over to thank them as they guarded a local shopping center

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

It's not just that some of these police are members of far-right gangs, it's also a concern that police recruit screening doesn't identify people like this as unsuitable for the job.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 06, 2020, 01:38:37 PM
There's been similar reports about the far right and military from the UK intelligence services and counter-extremism programs. Basically there are a number of squaddies with links to radical far right groups. I think there's been similar reports in other bits of Europe and I think there's a real need for the military in our countries to really curb far-right activity in their ranks.

Not sure if it's been an issue in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 06, 2020, 01:51:06 PM
Definitely an issue in Germany where far right militants have gotten their hands on confidential info in police files.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 06, 2020, 02:04:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 06, 2020, 01:51:06 PM
Definitely an issue in Germany where far right militants have gotten their hands on confidential info in police files.

Yup. The first few times this happened (it first cropped up last year or the year before) the official line was, "It's impossible to say who it might have been. One person unlocks the computer, and then everyone uses it."

And the Interior Minister dismisses calls for studies into the subject, because "discrimination is forbidden." Nevermind that the police union published calendars with racist cartoons. Instead the police forces invoke the spectre of left wing violence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 06, 2020, 02:13:08 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 06, 2020, 01:33:46 PM

It's not just that some of these police are members of far-right gangs, it's also a concern that police recruit screening doesn't identify people like this as unsuitable for the job.

That is one of the issues that is likely in need in reform.  My understanding in most US jurisdictions is that the police hiring seems to be almost entirely in-house, with the decision to hire individuals made by the agency (or perhaps more to the point, members of the agency) itself.

One of systemic problems overall is that police agencies seem are too insular to outside control and accountability. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 06, 2020, 02:32:33 PM
You know, the "Defund the police" movements would probably get more traction if they changed it to "Defund the the deep state".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 06, 2020, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 02, 2020, 06:52:18 PM
BLM and BtB rallies in town this weekend.

Relatively uneventful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 07, 2020, 02:37:52 AM
I think military and police are dream jobs for far-right types, so they need stringent rules and being kept to them to avoid an overtake (something the US seem to be lacking at least in case of the police), but it is such a natural fit that eliminating this danger altogether will be impossible
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on September 07, 2020, 10:29:23 AM
Also helps that the military and the far right target their recruitment at the same groups.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 11:06:35 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 07, 2020, 10:29:23 AM
Also helps that the military and the far right target their recruitment at the same groups.

If this is true, then I suspect that the British Army will realize their mistake soon enough, and target their recruiting more along the lines of other countries' militaries.   The far right are trying to recruit ill-disciplined and intolerant mugs; those are they type that are unlikely to even make it through boot camp.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 07, 2020, 11:18:04 AM
The military is targeting physically fit people below 35. I'm not sure who the far right targets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 07, 2020, 11:18:04 AM
The military is targeting physically fit people below 35. I'm not sure who the far right targets.

That's the US military, and most others.  The British military seems to know who the far right targets, and targets the same people for some reason. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 02:40:04 PM
The far right groups likes to send their recruits to the military so they can get training.

That explains the close proximity between the two.  It's not a matter of the military tolerating this (I know the Canadian army does not, pretty sure the US army/navy/air force does not either, not sure about every other armies in the world), it's a matter of discovering it.  The guys (and maybe girls, though I have my doubts concerning far rightwingers) who are sent to the military aren't those in the front lines, or those who have already gotten convictions for violent crimes, so unless they brag about it, it's difficult to know their links.

I have no idea how modern recruitment works, but I'm guessing they do a general search for a criminal past, investigations by other law agencies, maybe?  And they look at their social media profile, most definately.  So someone clearing their FB & Instagram accounts first before joining the military would not be discovered until much later after boot camp.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on September 07, 2020, 03:47:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 07, 2020, 11:18:04 AM
The military is targeting physically fit people below 35. I'm not sure who the far right targets.

That's the US military, and most others.  The British military seems to know who the far right targets, and targets the same people for some reason. 

Correlation does not equal causation.

Both target young men from deprived areas without many other prospects in their life.
The connection between the two such as it is, lies more in the other direction with the far right being very big on the military, which helps them to some extent in their recruitment in these deprived areas from which the military recruits heavily.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 04:48:23 PM
I don't know how accurate Tyr's description of British military recruiting is (it sounds to me like he is just making it up as he goes, but don't really care since i don't know how the British military recruits and don't think his point has any relevance beyond the UK in any case), but it is pretty clear in the US that right-wing (and left-wing) militia target much older, more prosperous people than the military does.  Militia types have to provide their own guns, ammo, uniforms, transportation, and food. 

While many militia types claim to have experience in the armed forces, it is pretty clear that a great many (in fact, an overwhelming percentage of those who've actually been identified, as far as i can tell) do not actually have military experience.  That makes sense; those who think that only they can take action to prevent a government, communist, or fascist takeover are generally the kinds of people who are crap at taking orders and deferring gratification.  They are not the types to succeed in a military organization that prioritizes obedience to orders and esprit de corps.

None of the Bundys ever served, nor did anyone in their gangs (from what I can tell).  Michael Reinoehl claimed to have served, but didn't.  His victim, Aaron Danielson, didn't serve.

There's certainly some overlap between military, police, and militia participation, but not any that is apparent in recruiting - except either in the UK, or in Tyr's fevered imagination.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 04:48:23 PM
but it is pretty clear in the US that right-wing (and left-wing) militia target much older, more prosperous people than the military does.  Militia types have to provide their own guns, ammo, uniforms, transportation, and food. 
and that's why you see all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes, taking their guns, ammo and water from the the trunk.   :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 05:16:21 PM

and that's why you see all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes, taking their guns, ammo and water from the the trunk.   :sleep:

I don't see those, but, if you see them, that's okay with me.  They might even be real.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on September 07, 2020, 07:56:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 05:16:21 PM

and that's why you see all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes, taking their guns, ammo and water from the the trunk.   :sleep:

I don't see those, but, if you see them, that's okay with me.  They might even be real.  ;)

I had no idea there were so many militiamen in Quebec.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 07:58:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 05:16:21 PM

and that's why you see all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes, taking their guns, ammo and water from the the trunk.   :sleep:

I don't see those, but, if you see them, that's okay with me.  They might even be real.  ;)
so, where are all those rich middle age guys recruited by the far right then? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 08:31:27 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 07:58:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 07, 2020, 05:16:21 PM

and that's why you see all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes, taking their guns, ammo and water from the the trunk.   :sleep:

I don't see those, but, if you see them, that's okay with me.  They might even be real.  ;)
so, where are all those rich middle age guys recruited by the far right then? :)

Dunno.  Why do you think there are large numbers of "rich middle age guys recruited by the far right?"  Insofar as I know, you are the only person in the world who thinks that only rich people belong to the far right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 08, 2020, 05:03:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 08:31:27 PM
but it is pretty clear in the US that right-wing (and left-wing) militia target much older, more prosperous people than the military does.  Militia types have to provide their own guns, ammo, uniforms, transportation, and food. 

as you were answering to Tyr:
Quote
Both target young men from deprived areas without many other prospects in their life.


Once again, you find yourself backed into a corner and you are trying the age old "I did not say that".

So, if the right and left wing militia don't go after 35 and younger in good physical shape from poorer areas, where are all the violent protesters coming from? :)  You just said they represente the majority, but you also said they ain't the people we see.  So, where are they all hidden? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 08, 2020, 05:55:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 08, 2020, 05:03:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 07, 2020, 08:31:27 PM
but it is pretty clear in the US that right-wing (and left-wing) militia target much older, more prosperous people than the military does.  Militia types have to provide their own guns, ammo, uniforms, transportation, and food. 

as you were answering to Tyr:
Quote
Both target young men from deprived areas without many other prospects in their life.


Once again, you find yourself backed into a corner and you are trying the age old "I did not say that".

So, if the right and left wing militia don't go after 35 and younger in good physical shape from poorer areas, where are all the violent protesters coming from? :)  You just said they represente the majority, but you also said they ain't the people we see.  So, where are they all hidden? :)

I am not backed into any corner at all.  You are claiming that militia members are "all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes" types, and I am saying you are full of shit. 

Michael Reinoehl was 48 years old.  Not a candidate for US military or naval recruitment.  Aaron J. Danielson was 39, also not a candidate.  The man with Danielson was Chandler Pappas, 36.  Not eligible to be recruited.  None owned a Mercedes.

It's funny how all of the people who can be identified by name and age fit neither of your two fictions about them being recruited by the military or 50 year-old Mercedes drivers.  Were you deliberately trying to make your evidence unbelievable by carefully bracketing the truth while missing it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 08, 2020, 06:47:51 PM
I was going to make a sarcastic remark about something someone said, but then I realized that everyone is speaking sarcasm here, probably.  I'm not actually sure who is saying what, so I can't even mock anything with absolute confidence.  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 08, 2020, 07:52:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 08, 2020, 05:55:15 PM
I am not backed into any corner at all.  You are claiming that militia members are "all those 50 something, arriving at a protest in their Mercedes" types, and I am saying you are full of shit. 
I'm not saying anything.  I was mocking your inexact statement.  But you knew that.

Quote
Michael Reinoehl was 48 years old.  Not a candidate for US military or naval recruitment.  Aaron J. Danielson was 39, also not a candidate.  The man with Danielson was Chandler Pappas, 36.  Not eligible to be recruited.  None owned a Mercedes.
Congrats, that's 3.  Now, are they also wealthy?  And were they recruited at that age?  Because I'm pretty sure the US armry, all branches, has active duty  soldiers of 48, 49 and 36 years old :)

Quote
It's funny how all of the people who can be identified by name and age fit neither of your two fictions about them being recruited by the military or 50 year-old Mercedes drivers.  Were you deliberately trying to make your evidence unbelievable by carefully bracketing the truth while missing it?
Because 3 is such a large sample.  You're telling me the US army has no one above 35 in its active ranks? :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on September 08, 2020, 09:26:38 PM
It sounds like militias aim for the same target demographic as reenactors. One distinction to make with far right armed recruitment is that it isn't just militias anymore. Groups like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer are the new power players and their financial and lifestyle commitments are a lot lower than militias. As such, they trend a lot younger and with much broader and lower bases in terms of financial standing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 08, 2020, 09:33:11 PM
I know that a few of the Alt-Right in my area have military experience. :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on September 08, 2020, 09:45:30 PM
Same. Or police training. I just *love* how delightfully ignorant, naive, or archaic of an understanding of the various shades of the Alt-Right certain people here have. "Militia groups! They're the alt-right!" Yeah. Ok. Please come into the 21st century. The militia groups are the tiny fringe element of the modern movement in terms of numbers and influence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2020, 12:02:43 AM
More charming behaviour by armed thugs pretending to be a police force :

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/08/linden-cameron-police-shooting-boy-autism-utah
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on September 09, 2020, 07:02:05 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:

This paragraph seems like it could just as easily apply to the UK:

QuoteIn practice, Correia and Wall said those who are able to "get off easy" from an encounter with the police typically look and act a lot like Mike, an affable white person who respects police authority and is careful to address them with friendly deference—to act the part of the sheepish, apologetic innocent who understands that the cop is "just doing their job."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 09, 2020, 08:44:36 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:

I've known quite a few cops and I never got one of those cards :angry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 09, 2020, 08:51:12 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 09, 2020, 08:44:36 AM
I've known quite a few cops and I never got one of those cards :angry:

They probably discovered we were anti-public sector unions :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 09, 2020, 08:52:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:
Yes, NYPD is very notorious for this.  I know someone who mentioned that this card got him out of five tickets, as he was describing how he avoided being arrested for shooting off illegal fireworks. 

Hopefully NYPD is the worst of the lot when it comes to this.  Obviously this is corrupt as fuck, but just as obviously, police union doesn't see it that way.  They don't even realize how bad it sounds that this card is requesting that "every courtesy is to be extended to the holder", as if the regular civilians are not deserving of courtesy from police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 09, 2020, 09:22:10 AM
I imagine those stickers people get have a similar effect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 09, 2020, 09:36:27 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2020, 08:52:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:
Yes, NYPD is very notorious for this.  I know someone who mentioned that this card got him out of five tickets, as he was describing how he avoided being arrested for shooting off illegal fireworks. 

Hopefully NYPD is the worst of the lot when it comes to this.  Obviously this is corrupt as fuck, but just as obviously, police union doesn't see it that way.  They don't even realize how bad it sounds that this card is requesting that "every courtesy is to be extended to the holder", as if the regular civilians are not deserving of courtesy from police.

I recall a bit about these cards/stickers years ago, probably on John Oliver, John Stewart, or Colbert Report.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 09, 2020, 10:35:08 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 09, 2020, 09:22:10 AM
I imagine those stickers people get have a similar effect.
From what I heard, not really.  The PBA card is pretty special, because there is an individual cop behind one, and defying the card means risking a conflict with the officer to gave it.  All the memorabilia that you get from donating to police under one guise or another (another totally not corrupt practice) is far more likely to be ignored.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 09, 2020, 10:40:39 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:

Amazing that this is legal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 09, 2020, 01:55:04 PM
Only thing I ever got was a poker chip from a buddy of mine who is a US Marshal. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 09, 2020, 02:01:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 09, 2020, 01:55:04 PM
Only thing I ever got was a poker chip from a buddy of mine who is a US Marshal. 

Assisting you with illegal gambling eh?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 09, 2020, 02:05:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 09, 2020, 01:55:04 PM
Only thing I ever got was a poker chip from a buddy of mine who is a US Marshal.

Was it:  platinum?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 09, 2020, 02:13:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2020, 06:41:07 AM
Is this article even half-way accurate?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-courtesy-cards?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Because it is mind-boggling to me that this exists :blink:

Surprisingly nuanced article for Vice.  They do point out that it's all just a matter of discretion, which police have all the time anyways.  And the last thing you'd ever want is for police to not have any discretion in laying charges.

I'm kind of shocked at the numbers though - NY PBA hands out 20 cards per officer per year.  That's a lot of fucking cards.  I'm happy to at least see that the cards are tied to specific officers and that they do double-check them, but still.

And mostly - I'd be mortified to put any cop friend of mine in such a position.  In my years as a Crown I've been pulled over twice.  Neither time did I ever mention being a Crown.  Once the cop did figure out who I was (I was driving a government-owned vehicle) and he did not give me a ticket, the other didn't figure it out and did.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 09, 2020, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 09, 2020, 02:13:16 PM
Surprisingly nuanced article for Vice.  They do point out that it's all just a matter of discretion, which police have all the time anyways.  And the last thing you'd ever want is for police to not have any discretion in laying charges.
The problem with police discretion is that so many cops are unaware that there is such a thing as abuse of discretion.  Discretion is meant to deal with unique circumstances of individual cases that can't practically be covered by policy without introducing undesirable outcomes.  Discretion is not meant to allow every cop to set their own policy, such as what classes of people will be subject to enforcement and what classes of people won't be.  Maybe the last thing you want is for police to not have any discretion, but the next to last thing you want is police that interprets discretion as arbitrariness.  Actually, I'm not sure which one is the last one and which one is the next to last one.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?

This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers. Unconstitutional, of course, they are as entitled of a fair trail as any other murderer.

I cannot read the article unfortunately.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 10, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Well, it sounds pretty bad from the title.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers.
I know I'm being very pedantic by pointing it out, but technically the guy shot a far-right militia person, not a cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 10, 2020, 12:21:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?

This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers. Unconstitutional, of course, they are as entitled of a fair trail as any other murderer.

I cannot read the article unfortunately.

He wasn't a cop killer. Let's be clear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 10, 2020, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.

QuoteThere are few official details about what happened next. At least four members of the task force, which included officers from a variety of local agencies, fired dozens of times at Reinoehl; the U.S. Marshals Service later said he had a handgun, but it wasn't clear whether he had ever fired it at police.

The first article wasn't exactly correct. US Marshals and "a variety of local agencies".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 10, 2020, 12:33:32 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?

So I understand the reluctance of people to believe what police might say, but two independent witnesses confirmed that the suspect fired first.

Obviously there should be a full investigation (including who was standing where, and what opportunity they had to see anything), but my initial reaction is to have doubts about the allegation that cops straight-up murdered this guy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 01:27:33 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers.
I know I'm being very pedantic by pointing it out, but technically the guy shot a far-right militia person, not a cop.

I can't read the article, paywalled, so everything I said might be completely wrong.

Not that that ever stopped me from posting about something :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 10, 2020, 01:46:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 09, 2020, 02:05:47 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 09, 2020, 01:55:04 PM
Only thing I ever got was a poker chip from a buddy of mine who is a US Marshal.

Was it:  platinum?

Now that you mention it-- yes, yes it was.  I also got shot in the head and had it stolen :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 01:51:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 10, 2020, 01:46:23 PM
Now that you mention it-- yes, yes it was.  I also got shot in the head and had it stolen :hmm:

Mr. House is not going to be happy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 10, 2020, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 10, 2020, 12:33:32 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?

So I understand the reluctance of people to believe what police might say, but two independent witnesses confirmed that the suspect fired first.

Obviously there should be a full investigation (including who was standing where, and what opportunity they had to see anything), but my initial reaction is to have doubts about the allegation that cops straight-up murdered this guy.

As I said, I'm waiting on the bodycam footage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 10, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 01:27:33 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers.
I know I'm being very pedantic by pointing it out, but technically the guy shot a far-right militia person, not a cop.

I can't read the article, paywalled, so everything I said might be completely wrong.

Not that that ever stopped me from posting about something :P
fucking cheapskate. Support your hometown paper you ass.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 10, 2020, 03:00:14 PM
Valmy is no ass.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 10, 2020, 03:31:37 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?

So far, it's one witness saying the cops never announced themselves, and two non-police witnesses saying that the police did.  I'd need more of a balance to the reports to start doubting the witnesses who've been consistent in their stories.

I'm not saying the witness who is dissenting is wrong, mind, just that the preponderance of evidence is against him.  It's also hard to credibly testify that something didn't happen, as opposed to testifying that you didn't see something happen.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 10, 2020, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 01:27:33 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers.
I know I'm being very pedantic by pointing it out, but technically the guy shot a far-right militia person, not a cop.

I can't read the article, paywalled, so everything I said might be completely wrong.

Not that that ever stopped me from posting about something :P
fucking cheapskate. Support your hometown paper you ass.

I support mine.  Does that make me not an ass?  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on September 10, 2020, 05:39:34 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 10, 2020, 05:05:57 PM

I support mine.  Does that make me not an ass?  :)


Hmmmm, let me get back to you on that one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 10, 2020, 05:47:08 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 10, 2020, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
fucking cheapskate. Support your hometown paper you ass.

I support mine.  Does that make me not an ass?  :)
It makes you not a cheapskate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on September 10, 2020, 06:02:48 PM
:showoff:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 10, 2020, 06:03:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
This is not an uncommon fate for cop killers.
I know I'm being very pedantic by pointing it out, but technically the guy shot a far-right militia person, not a cop.


At this point, what's the difference?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 10, 2020, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: katmai on September 10, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 05, 2020, 11:23:08 PM
The article said it was US Marshals effecting the arrest, not local PD.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/reinoehl-portland-antifa-killing-police/) What are languish's thoughts on this?
2 witnesses say they saw the suspect shoot at the police.1 witness says he saw the police fire first without summons while the guy was unarmed and talking on his cellphone.
Someone is obviously lying there.  An independant investigation sounds right.  But by whom?  Another police corps from another city, maybe.  I'm not sure I would trust the FBI's neutrality currently.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 06:49:06 PM
Witnesses can be wrong without lying.  In fact, they often are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 10, 2020, 08:40:03 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 06:49:06 PM
Witnesses can be wrong without lying.  In fact, they often are.

Agreed.  Further, the witnesses may not have said exactly what the paper claims they said.  Reporters get it wrong, as well.

So there's a lot of room here for misunderstandings.  Not all that's wrong is a lie.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on September 11, 2020, 02:54:49 AM
Not shooting violence this time, but more news of police departments behaving badly.

QuotePasco's sheriff created a futuristic program to stop crime before it happens.
It monitors and harasses families across the county.


Pasco County Sheriff Chris Nocco took office in 2011 with a bold plan: to create a cutting-edge intelligence program that could stop crime before it happened.

What he actually built was a system to continuously monitor and harass Pasco County residents, a Tampa Bay Times investigation has found.

First the Sheriff's Office generates lists of people it considers likely to break the law, based on arrest histories, unspecified intelligence and arbitrary decisions by police analysts.

Then it sends deputies to find and interrogate anyone whose name appears, often without probable cause, a search warrant or evidence of a specific crime.

They swarm homes in the middle of the night, waking families and embarrassing people in front of their neighbors. They write tickets for missing mailbox numbers and overgrown grass, saddling residents with court dates and fines. They come again and again, making arrests for any reason they can.

One former deputy described the directive like this: "Make their lives miserable until they move or sue."

In just five years, Nocco's signature program has ensnared almost 1,000 people.

At least 1 in 10 were younger than 18, the Times found.

Some of the young people were labeled targets despite having only one or two arrests.

Rio Wojtecki, 15, became a target in September 2019, almost a year after he was arrested for sneaking into carports with a friend and stealing motorized bicycles.

Those were the only charges against Rio, and he already had a state-issued juvenile probation officer checking on him. Yet from September 2019 to January 2020, Pasco Sheriff's deputies went to his home at least 21 times, dispatch logs show.

They showed up at the car dealership where his mom worked, looked for him at a friend's house and checked his gym to see if he had signed in.

More than once, the deputies acknowledged that Rio wasn't getting into trouble. They mostly grilled him about his friends, according to body-camera video of the interactions. But he had been identified as a target, they said, so they had to keep checking on him.

Since September 2015, the Sheriff's Office has sent deputies on checks like those more than 12,500 times, dispatch logs show.

Deputies gave the mother of one teenage target a $2,500 fine because she had five chickens in her backyard. They arrested another target's father after peering through a window in his house and noticing a 17-year-old friend of his son smoking a cigarette.

As they make checks, deputies feed information back into the system, not just on the people they target, but on family members, friends and anyone else in the target's orbit.

In the past two years alone, two of the nation's largest law enforcement agencies have scrapped similar programs following public outcries and reports documenting serious flaws.

In Pasco, however, the initiative has expanded. Last summer, the Sheriff's Office announced plans to begin keeping tabs on people who have been repeatedly committed to psychiatric hospitals.

The Times shared its findings with the Sheriff's Office six weeks before this story published. Nocco declined multiple interview requests.

In statements that spanned more than 30 pages, the agency said it stands behind its program — part of a larger initiative it calls intelligence-led policing. It said other local departments use similar techniques and accused the Times of cherry-picking examples and painting "basic law enforcement functions" as harassment.

The Sheriff's Office said its program was designed to reduce bias in policing by using objective data. And it provided statistics showing a decline in burglaries, larcenies and auto thefts since the program began in 2011.

"This reduction in property crime has a direct, positive impact on the lives of the citizens of Pasco County and, for that, we will not apologize," one of the statements said. "Our first and primary mission is to serve and protect our community and the Intelligence Led Policing philosophy assists us in achieving that mission."

But Pasco's drop in property crimes was similar to the decline in the seven-largest nearby police jurisdictions. Over the same time period, violent crime increased only in Pasco.

Criminal justice experts said they were stunned by the agency's practices. They compared the tactics to child abuse, mafia harassment and surveillance that could be expected under an authoritarian regime.

"Morally repugnant," said Matthew Barge, an expert in police practices and civil rights who oversaw court-ordered agreements to address police misconduct in Cleveland and Baltimore.

"One of the worst manifestations of the intersection of junk science and bad policing — and an absolute absence of common sense and humanity — that I have seen in my career," said David Kennedy, a renowned criminologist at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, whose research on crime prevention is referenced in Pasco's policies.

The Times' examination of Pasco's intelligence program comes amid a national debate over the role of police in society and calls to reduce funding for law enforcement or replace entire departments.

For years, the program's inner workings have remained largely out of public view, even as Nocco has touted its merits during debates and community forums. Times reporters combed through thousands of pages of documents, watched hours of body-camera footage and spent months obtaining and analyzing the target list, which had not been previously released.

Pasco is an overwhelmingly white county, and the program did not appear to disproportionately target people based on race.

But juvenile offenders, regardless of race, were an outsized priority for the intelligence program, according to former deputies and a Times data analysis.

Of the 20 addresses visited most by its dedicated enforcement teams, more than half were home to middle- or high-schoolers who were identified as targets.

Longer article here: https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/ (https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 11, 2020, 02:46:58 PM
(https://i.redd.it/8v6nto38hjm51.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on September 11, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
Why does the sheriff's department keep a record of that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 11, 2020, 02:56:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 11, 2020, 02:54:49 AM
Not shooting violence this time, but more news of police departments behaving badly.


Longer article here: https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/ (https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/)

BB would like to subscribe to their news letter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 11, 2020, 04:01:41 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 11, 2020, 02:56:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 11, 2020, 02:54:49 AM
Not shooting violence this time, but more news of police departments behaving badly.


Longer article here: https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/ (https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/)

BB would like to subscribe to their news letter.

Nothing wrong with identifying certain suspects and targets for enhanced attention.  I've seen cases where someone is IDed as a high risk offender is being surveilled by police and then go out and commits a new crime.

But this sure sounds like it is going well beyond anything useful and just becomes harassment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 11, 2020, 06:13:21 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 11, 2020, 02:46:58 PM
(https://i.redd.it/8v6nto38hjm51.jpg)

Except that the kid doesn't "have a record with the sheriff's department," there were two kids involved, and the disruption of the class involved a lot more than the toy gun.

News media fail.  It's possible that the school over-reacted, for sure, but the thrust of this "news story" is false.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 11, 2020, 06:14:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 11, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
Why does the sheriff's department keep a record of that?

Because it is better clickbait for Vice News.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 11, 2020, 07:41:51 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 13, 2020, 01:37:08 PM
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1304953304619810816?s=20

QuoteTrump on a purported antifa sympathizer who allegedly killed someone in Portland being killed by federal forces: "This guy was a violent criminal, and the US Marshals killed him. And I'll tell you something -- that's the way it has to be. There has to be retribution."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 13, 2020, 01:44:57 PM
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1304953973867249664?s=20

TRUMP: "We're not there yet, but we have people that are very angry. You start seeing them, the trucks coming in, and this comes in and that comes in. All of a sudden you're gonna see a backlash the likes of which you haven't seen in many, many years. Because people aren't gonna take it. You know, a lot of people ... this is all a left movement, not a right movement. A lot of people on the right are sitting home watching their television set, looking at Kenosha, and looking at Chicago where they shoot people and kill people by the dozens every week, it's not even believable. But they say they look at it, and they say, 'I'm not gonna allow that to happen in my country."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 13, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
And still, at least 40% of this country supports him. That's horrifying.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2020, 06:49:06 PM
Witnesses can be wrong without lying.  In fact, they often are.
Wrongly identifying someone is one thing.

But one claims the dude was standing still talking over the phone when talking, 2 others say he was actively shooting at the cops.

How can you misread such a situation?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on September 14, 2020, 05:56:43 AM
There was a Police shooting in Montreal on saturday night. 31 shots were fired, which makes it our worse shooting event since 2006. One cop shot his entire, 16 bullets, magazine.

No one died.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 14, 2020, 10:54:00 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 14, 2020, 05:56:43 AM
There was a Police shooting in Montreal on saturday night. 31 shots were fired, which makes it our worse shooting event since 2006. One cop shot his entire, 16 bullets, magazine.

No one died.



did they shoot at the bad guy's bullets?

Maybe we should train them better :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 14, 2020, 10:54:59 AM
Canadian police are very bad shots :hmm:

I guess that helps explain why they shoot so few Canadian citizens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on September 14, 2020, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 14, 2020, 10:54:59 AM
Canadian police are very bad shots :hmm:

A whole generation influenced by Star Wars
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 14, 2020, 01:25:40 PM
If you want to shoot someone, it helps your accuracy to get them on the ground first.  Rookie mistakes by Canadian cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 18, 2020, 01:38:39 AM
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/09/17/texas-deputies-reportedly-got-steakhouse-gift-cards-using-force/3484360001/

QuoteTexas deputies, including those who killed Javier Ambler, reportedly got steakhouse gift cards for using force

Williamson County, Texas, Sheriff's Office leaders rewarded deputies who used force on the job with steakhouse gift cards, according to two former employees, one of whom made the admission to Texas Rangers investigating the agency's aggressive tactics.

Among the deputies who received gift cards to places such as Logan's Roadhouse were J.J. Johnson and Zach Camden, the officers involved in the March 2019 death of Javier Ambler. The Black 40-year-old father was Tased four times as he shouted that he had a heart condition and could not breathe.

In a recorded interview with Texas Rangers, former Deputy Christopher Pisa said Cmdr. Steve Deaton awarded deputies he considered "WilCo badass."

"They had the intention that we were all 'WilCo badass' and if you went out there and did your job, and you had to use force on somebody and he agreed with it, then you would get a gift card," Pisa said in an audio recording obtained by the Austin American-Statesman, which is part of the USA TODAY Network.

Former Sgt. Troy Brogden, who resigned from the department last year, corroborated Pisa's claim and told the Statesman that Deaton gave the cards "for what he considered good uses of force."

Brogden worked for the agency for 20 years, including as a supervisor overseeing major cases in the criminal investigations division, before resigning last fall.

"He would talk about it in groups, including supervisors meetings and classes," Brogden said. "I was like, 'What the hell?'"

The revelation that top supervisors allegedly rewarded use of force provides a stunning insight into the suburban Austin department that seems to encourage violence, at least two law-enforcement experts said.

"That makes no sense to me at all," said Jeff Noble, a retired deputy chief with the Irvine, Calif., police department and a national policing expert. "The incentive is, 'Let's go out and use more force so we can get more gift cards.' The fear is that you are incentivizing bad behavior."

The agency's alleged system of rewarding force is the latest in a string of questionable practices reported by the American-Statesman in recent months. The department has also hired multiple deputies with troubled histories, engaged in high-speed vehicle pursuits for minor traffic violations and used aggressive tactics in several incidents that are now under investigation by the Texas Rangers and the Williamson County district attorney.

Increased questions about the agency's use of force coincided with its participation in the reality show "Live PD" much of last year. Producers canceled "Live PD" in June, two days after the Statesman revealed details of Ambler's death and that the show had destroyed footage of the incident.

Sheriff Robert Chody said in a statement: "Literally, the only use of cards I recall specifically was for a deputy who was able to recover some excellent fingerprints that ended up helping an investigation resulting in a warrant for that suspect and for a capture of a burglary suspect."

"I have no idea what 'good use of force' means," he wrote.

An audio recording
Texas Rangers and the Williamson County District Attorney's Office are investigating at least five use-of-force incidents involving Williamson County deputies, including a violent arrest that was broadcast on "Live PD" and a deputy's attack on a 20-year-old domestic violence victim.

One of the incidents under investigation is an April 2019 traffic stop Pisa conducted in which he used force on an African-American woman. Officials have not released details of the incident, which triggered a criminal investigation and prompted Pisa's resignation.

Rangers interviewed Pisa six months after he resigned.

In an audio recording of that interview, provided to the Statesman by Pisa's lawyer, the deputy said after the April incident he expected to receive a gift card from his superiors.

Pisa said the department's practice of handing out gift cards in certain use-of-force cases was "common knowledge" and that Deaton was responsible for reviewing incidents and rewarding the cards.

"It was something everybody knew," Pisa said. "He has even said it to people in meetings."

"You are saying that, correct me if I am mistaken, that Cmdr. Deaton, that it is known that Cmdr. Deaton gives out gift cards to steakhouses or wherever to people for using force?" the Ranger asked again.

"A good use of force," Pisa responded.

Pisa did not link the gift cards to Ambler's case, and the Ranger did not ask for which incident he believed Johnson and Camden were rewarded.

Attorneys for the two deputies, who remain on the force, declined to comment about whether they received gift cards or for what purpose.

Deaton resigned in September 2019, months after social media posts of his surfaced with objectionable images showing dolls depicting actions, such as rape and kidnapping and the mutilation of a Black football player.

Gift card claims alarm experts
Two national law enforcement experts told the Statesman that they were alarmed by reports that the department rewarded force with gift cards.

Noble said if the cards weren't a reward for using force, the department erred by not making clear the purpose or resolving any confusion.

"These officers didn't create this myth on their own, so it is tied to something," he said.

Timothy T. Williams, a retired senior detective supervisor for the Los Angeles Police Department, said that public service and a desire to help others should be adequate incentives for law enforcement.

"That is your mission," he said. "You are not there as hunters. You are there to prevent crime. That is your incentive."

It is unclear whether Rangers further investigated Pisa's disclosure. It is also unclear who paid for the gift cards.

Williamson County District Attorney Shawn Dick, who is investigating the use-of-force cases and potential evidence tampering charges against the agency, declined to comment because of ongoing investigations.

Pisa's attorney, Robert McCabe, said he was shocked by what his client told the Ranger during the interview.

"I think it absolutely happened, and I think it can easily be seen as 'attaway to go,' like rewarding using force," McCabe said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 18, 2020, 03:05:49 AM
Public service and a desire to help others are great, but I still think we should give them a paycheck.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Hey I live in Williamson County  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on September 18, 2020, 08:14:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Hey I live in Williamson County  :ph34r:

Pro tip: remain white.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 18, 2020, 08:26:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Hey I live in Williamson County  :ph34r:
Oh I watched Outcry recently - that Williamson County? :mellow: :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:33:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 18, 2020, 08:26:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Hey I live in Williamson County  :ph34r:
Oh I watched Outcry recently - that Williamson County? :mellow: :ph34r:

That is the place! Leander is just a short distance from where I live.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:40:43 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2020, 08:14:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Hey I live in Williamson County  :ph34r:

Pro tip: remain white.

I used to have my run-ins with the wannabe bad asses in Williamson County when I was younger. Anybody under 30 is a thug needing to be put in line according to them (and that was even more true in the 1990s than today).

But on Christmas Eve 2018 we stopped to take a picture by the local public Christmas tree. There was nobody on the streets and so we just parked our car for a second at the side of the road and rushed out to take a picture of the kids by the tree. Now keep in mind my wife, in her well justified paranoia about the asshole-ish reputation of our local cops, was very hestitant to do so but me and my mother-in-law convinced her it would just be for a second and surely not even the Williamson County Cops are out looking for trouble makers like us late on Christmas Eve.

But no a cop soon pulled up and threw the most melodramatic tantrum about how we were all thugs and criminals and endangering lives because of all the drunk drivers out on Christmas Eve and we had to scurry away. I mean there was nobody on the road and it wasn't even a tow-away zone or anything. It was just not a parking place.

Anyway I am sure he felt like a certified badass after that. It is just the culture of law enforcement out here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on September 18, 2020, 09:13:40 AM
The elected judges here used to be so notorious as well that there used to be a joke that if you commit a crime in Williamson County make sure you move the evidence into one of the neighboring counties. But this area is now an Austin suburb and not a rural cowboy type area like it used to be so the culture is mellowing a bit, but just a bit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 21, 2020, 11:41:11 AM
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/doj-designates-new-york-city-as-an-anarchist-jurisdiction/2627588/

QuoteDOJ Designates New York City [+ Seattle and Portland] as an 'Anarchist Jurisdiction'

The designation comes after a memo from President Trump earlier this month threatening to cut off federal funds for cities

The Justice Department designated NYC, Portland and Seattle as "anarchist jurisdictions" under guidelines issued by President Trump earlier this month

Trump's Sept. 2 memo directs federal agencies to minimize funding for designated cities

Federal grants account for billions of dollars of NYC's annual budget, and the city has threatened to sue over any move to defund it

New York City is one of three places that "have permitted violence and destruction of property to persist and have refused to undertake reasonable measures to counteract criminal activities," leading to its designation as an "anarchist jurisdiction," the Justice Department said Monday.

Rather than idle words, the designation has potential financial consequences. President Trump issued a memo earlier this month directing the DOJ to identify jurisdictions that, in its view, were not enforcing the law appropriately. Designated cities could lose their federal funding.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo minced no words in responding to the DOJ assessment.

"I understand the politics, but when you try to manipulate and distort government agencies to play politics, which is what the Trump administration has done from day one ... this is more of the same," Cuomo said on a conference call with reporters. "The president can't supersede the law and say I'm going to make those funds basically discretionary funds, which is what he would have to do."

"If they actually do this, we will challenge it legally, and they will lose once again," he added.

Trump's Sept. 2 order gives the director of the Office of Management and Budget 30 days to issue guidance to federal agencies on restricting eligibility for federal grants for the cities on the DOJ list. Such grants make up a huge portion of NYC's already strapped annual budget -- more than $7 billion in fiscal 2021 alone, or 7.5% of the city's projected total revenue.

In justifying its decision, the DOJ cited New York City's rising gun violence, cuts to the NYPD's budget, and moves by various district attorneys not to prosecute charges related to protests earlier this summer. Portland, Oregon and Seattle, Washington were also hit with the same designation.

"We cannot allow federal tax dollars to be wasted when the safety of the citizenry hangs in the balance. It is my hope that the cities identified by the Department of Justice today will reverse course and become serious about performing the basic function of government and start protecting their own citizens," Attorney General William Barr said in a statement.

Both the city and the state have previously threatened to sue the federal government over the possible DOJ classification, which Mayor Bill de Blasio reiterated Monday.

"I was out in Elmhurst Queens this morning, I saw peace, tranquility, I saw people going about their business, people excited that it's the first day of school – I saw anything but anarchy. This is just another one of President Trump's games," De Blasio said at his daily news conference. "It's insulting to the people of New York City and his effort to withhold our funding is unconstitutional."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on September 21, 2020, 11:46:27 AM
Snake Plissken's on the case
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 22, 2020, 05:48:26 AM
https://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-black-man-falsely-arrested-194757484.html

QuoteWisconsin Black man falsely arrested at his own home sues city

The young man, Keonte Furdge, was arrested and held at gunpoint in his home by two officers

On June 2, a young Black man was arrested in his home with guns pointed at him, but police are now calling the incident a mistake.

As reported by Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Keonte Furdge was arrested in his home after a neighbor called the police because he was sitting on the patio. Two police officers entered the house with their guns drawn and handcuffed Furdge, 23.

The home belonged to Furdge's coach who was allowing him and another team mate to stay in the house after his mother who previously lived in the home had passed away. When officers Jared Wedig and Luke Wunsch discovered they made a mistake they apologized saying "sorry to ruffle your feathers this morning." They added the neighbor was probably alarmed and called the police because the boys are "two big Black guys."

But the lawsuit against the Monona police department and the two officers says sorry just doesn't cut it. The lawsuit was filed in Madison federal court last week.

"This lawsuit seeks to establish that this was more than a misunderstanding...It seeks to vindicate the violation of Keonte Furdge's constitutional rights," the filing states.

It adds, "it seeks to effect change through punitive damages by punishing the Defendants for their egregious conduct with the hope that the punishment is significant enough to prevent this from happening again in the future, so that a person can move into a formerly vacant house in the City of Monona and sit on his front porch without having to fear that the police will break in and shoot him."

The officers in this incident were wearing body cameras and officer Wunsch can be overheard.

"I am glad it was you and I recognized you versus somebody who I didn't know, but, ah, that is still not, nobody wants that interaction," Wunsch says.

This incident comes on the heels of the shooting of Jacob Blake. As reported by theGrio, Blake was a Black man who was shot in the back in front of his children by police officers in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

The suit mentions that a neighbor called the police because they saw "a suspicious African American next door."

The suit also disputes, "false arrest, excessive force and failure to  intervene, and to hold the city liable for Wedig's and Wunsch's actions. It seeks unspecified damages for bodily injury, pain, suffering, mental distress, humiliation, loss of liberty and related expenses."


Video:

https://youtu.be/stPxB9tYkbE?t=1167

TBF, the cops seem as annoyed by the whole thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on September 23, 2020, 04:24:52 PM
QuoteBreonna Taylor killing: Kentucky grand jury indicts one officer on criminal charges
Brett Hankison indicted on charges of wanton endangerment
Crowds begin marching amid anger that only one officer was charged

Anger erupted on Wednesday afternoon when it was announced that only one police officer would face criminal charges out of three involved in the shooting death of Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky, earlier this year.

Crowds in Louisville, where Taylor was shot at home in March, began marching and many cried moments after the announcement by a judge that a grand jury had decided to indict only Brett Hankison, on three charges of wanton endangerment.

Those are regarded as relatively lowly charges. They were related to the fact that Hankison fired his gun while he was still outside Taylor's apartment and therefore endangered people living in other nearby apartments.

Hankison was not charged for shooting Taylor, and the other two officers present, who also fired multiple times at Taylor in her apartment, were not charged.


The lawyer Ben Crump said on behalf of Taylor's family that the grand jury's decision was "outrageous and offensive".

Crowds gathered in a park in downtown Louisville, where there have been protests every day for months, were largely stunned into silence as the decision reached them and the mood was one of sorrow underpinned with a simmering anger.

Moments later, someone screamed out in anguish and people wept, before they began to march.

"I'm more saddened than angry," Monique Lathon, 33, who was there with her young daughter, told the Guardian.

David Mour, 59, a lawyer who represents many activists, stood solemnly as the crowd took in the news.

"I have had clients indicted for way less," he said.

The civil rights leader Al Sharpton said the charges were "grossly insufficient", in an interview on MSNBC.

The other two officers with Hankison on the night the police broke into Taylor's apartment as part of an investigation, Jonathan Mattingly and Miles Cosgrove, fired their weapons inside Taylor's apartment after her boyfriend fired one shot at the officers as they entered.

Louisville had been on edge earlier as it waited for the grand jury's conclusions on whether there would be charges against the three police officers involved in the killing.

Taylor's case has become a rallying cry against police brutality and racism across the US and the world.

Taylor, a 26-year-old emergency room technician, who was Black, was killed on 13 March by white police officers in Louisville serving a so-called "no-knock warrant" that allowed them to charge into her apartment without warning as part of an investigation into an ex-boyfriend.

Taylor was at her apartment with her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, and asleep when police barged in. Walker, who said officers did not announce themselves, fired a single shot from his gun, believing the police were intruders. One officer was shot in the leg and police fired in return.

The attorney general of Kentucky, Daniel Cameron, said in a press conference in the state capital, Frankfort, on Wednesday afternoon "there is no doubt this is a gut-wrenching" outcome of the case for many.

Downtown streets in Louisville, about 50 miles from Frankfort, have been closed off all week as the city awaited the announcement.

Dozens of people who had gathered there waiting for the announcement on Wednesday burst into tears when it became clear that only one officer would be indicted, and with a more minor charge than many had expected.

They began marching and chanting as Cameron was still talking, explaining how six police bullets struck Taylor after Mattingly fired six shots, Cosgrove fired 16 shots and Hankison fired 10 shots after entering Taylor's apartment. Cosgrove is believed to have fired the fatal shot, Cameron said.

The officers opened fire after, Mattingly told investigators, they burst into the apartment and saw a man and a woman at the end of the hallway, following which Walker fired one shot that hit Mattingly in the thigh. The police officers then opened fire. Hankison fired from outside the bedroom where Taylor died.

Cameron said the loss of Taylor's life was a tragedy.

"I know that not everyone will be satisfied by the charges today," Cameron said.

He added: "I understand as a Black man how painful this is ... my heart breaks for the loss of Miss Taylor."

Louisville was placed under a state of emergency Tuesday as city officials closed down a more than 25-block perimeter to traffic. Most city administrative buildings and other businesses were boarded up in anticipation of the decision.

Protests in Louisville related to Taylor's death in March have been taking place for more than 100 consecutive days and have been overwhelmingly peaceful.

A state of emergency was declared in Louisville in anticipation of protests following the grand jury decision.

Last week the city of Louisville reached a $12m settlement with Taylor's family in a civil suit stemming from the shooting. The city has also agreed to policing reforms including a requirement that commanders approve all search warrants before they go to a judge.

The California senator and Democratic vice-presidential nominee Kamala Harris has called for the Department of Justice to investigate Taylor's killing.

Former Washington, DC, and Philadelphia police chief Charles Ramsey told CNN he did not think it was a surprise that the two officers who were not indicted had not been charged.

"Charges are filed on the basis of evidence, not to appease people," he said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 23, 2020, 06:42:48 PM
It's a tough case to make.

Yes, people are indicted for less than that.  But they ain't police.

11 witnesses said they didn't hear the cops knocking 3 times and shouting "Police".  1 witness says he heard them shout "Police" once.

Cops said they had no camera, but we can see at least one of them wearing one.  Since they had no obligation to have it on as they are not patrollers (and even then, I'm not sure about Louisville), you can't hold it against them if it's SOP.

They had a mandate, and the mandate authorized them for not knocking, even if the intervention was changed to a "knock&enter" just before, again, it's hard to charge them for a crime here.

As they knocked/entered, they were shot at and they responded.  Again, not a crime.

Bad police procedure in the execution.  Warrant obtained with misrepresented info (the whole post office thing), possibly, I can't see a lot of info about that.  But murder/attempted murder... The threshold to obtain a conviction against the police officer seems way too high.  Most of these cases result in acquital of the officer/s, and it's either charge them with the higher offence and lose it all, or go for a lower offence and fire them from the police force.

It's way more than just accusing some officer and saying they've cleared the bad apples.
they should never have gotten a mandate to beging with, they had no evidence a crime was being committed in her appt.  and that whole gun culture where you shoot first and ask questions later... :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on September 23, 2020, 07:22:25 PM
Everyone is texting me today to ask if I am 'staying safe' and if my 'neighborhood is on fire'. :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 23, 2020, 08:10:09 PM
People think you're a poor.  :nelson:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 23, 2020, 08:26:05 PM
Portland this weekend is supposed to be a shit-show. About 1000 armed Proud Boys/right-wing Trumpers threatening violence at one park.  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts)) Something like 3000-5000 BLMs protesters at another park three miles away.

What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: katmai on September 23, 2020, 09:18:09 PM
I'm gonna get me a shotgun and kill all the whities I see,
I'm gonna get me a shotgun and kill all the whities I see.
When I kill all the whities I see, then whitey he won't bother me,
I'm gonna get me a shotgun and kill all the whities I see.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Caliga on September 24, 2020, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 23, 2020, 08:10:09 PM
People think you're a poor.  :nelson:
It's more like they think Louisville is a tiny dot on a map, rather than a sprawling metropolitan area with a million residents. :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on September 24, 2020, 10:45:27 AM
Quote from: Caliga on September 24, 2020, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 23, 2020, 08:10:09 PM
People think you're a poor.  :nelson:
It's more like they think Louisville is a tiny dot on a map, rather than a sprawling metropolitan area with a million residents. :hmm:

It looks small from 36,000 feet.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 24, 2020, 06:47:58 PM
From another thread:
QuoteAfter the killing of George Floyd in May, they had a long and emotive conversation about Black Lives Matter. Peter asked Anthony to make sure he had his mobile phone ready if the police stopped them.

"As a black man I have 10 seconds to explain who I am to the police before it potentially escalates," Peter says.

"I always say to Anthony, 'if the police stop me, please pull up the phone and record right away.' Because I know he's my only witness, you know? And I have 10 seconds to save my life."

"I think he gets it. He knows that because we're in America and I look different to him, I'm going to be treated differently.

"This kind of tension and suspicion is not something a white parent faces when they adopt a black child."
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54238642 (https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54238642)

that, in a nutshell, is what drives me crazy about these "Back the Blue" and "All lives matter" types:  they simply are ignoring the enormous damage that our fucked-up olice recruiting and training methods are doing to the entire social fabric of our country... and we are PAYING TO HAVE IT FUCKED UP!

Yes, the injustice is grating.  Yes, the fact that the thugs are using our devolved authority to freely commit their thuggery is infuriating.  But the blindness to the direct effect of this racist bullshit, that it demotivates the very people we as a society should most want motivated, is the real thing that sticks in my craw.  Here is a guy far more saintly than me, and he is forced to live with the knowledge that his saintly choices mean that he is daily ten seconds from death because "all lives matter" except his.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2020, 08:04:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 23, 2020, 04:24:52 PM
Quote

Crowds in Louisville, where Taylor was shot at home in March, began marching and many cried moments after the announcement by a judge that a grand jury had decided to indict only Brett Hankison, on three charges of wanton endangerment.

Those are regarded as relatively lowly charges. They were related to the fact that Hankison fired his gun while he was still outside Taylor's apartment and therefore endangered people living in other nearby apartments.

Hankison was not charged for shooting Taylor, and the other two officers present, who also fired multiple times at Taylor in her apartment, were not charged.


The lawyer Ben Crump said on behalf of Taylor's family that the grand jury's decision was "outrageous and offensive".


:hmm:

https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1308844769670500352
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EinzYVLWAAAjZc3?format=jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 24, 2020, 08:16:27 PM
Hard to charge cops for returning fire, even when their aim is shitty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 24, 2020, 10:10:49 PM
Quote from: Caliga on September 24, 2020, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 23, 2020, 08:10:09 PM
People think you're a poor.  :nelson:
It's more like they think Louisville is a tiny dot on a map, rather than a sprawling metropolitan area with a million residents. :hmm:

I get that because of Portland all the time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 24, 2020, 11:13:26 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 24, 2020, 08:16:27 PM
Hard to charge cops for returning fire, even when their aim is shitty.
They hit her five times.  If their aim was shitty, it was shitty in a very consistent way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 25, 2020, 10:52:22 AM
Quote from: merithyn on September 23, 2020, 08:26:05 PM
Portland this weekend is supposed to be a shit-show. About 1000 armed Proud Boys/right-wing Trumpers threatening violence at one park.  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts)) Something like 3000-5000 BLMs protesters at another park three miles away.

What could possibly go wrong?
Nothing.  American gun owners are well behaved and only use their guns in self defense.  Besides, the police will be there to seperate the crowd and everyone knows how much the Proud Boys appreciate the police, so they wouldn't do anything they're not expressely told by the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 25, 2020, 11:00:31 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 24, 2020, 11:13:26 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 24, 2020, 08:16:27 PM
Hard to charge cops for returning fire, even when their aim is shitty.
They hit her five times.  If their aim was shitty, it was shitty in a very consistent way.
5 times out of more than 20 bullets, with 3 officers involved.  It's shitty aim, at best 25% of the bullets hit their target the others flying wide everywhere in the apt and the neighbours' apt.  More badluck that she was hit than anything else.
And I doubt a jury would condemn the officers since they were shot at first and an independant investigation has concluded they knocked and announced themselves.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 25, 2020, 11:04:54 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2020, 11:00:31 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 24, 2020, 11:13:26 PM
They hit her five times.  If their aim was shitty, it was shitty in a very consistent way.
5 times out of more than 20 bullets, with 3 officers involved.  It's shitty aim, at best 25% of the bullets hit their target the others flying wide everywhere in the apt and the neighbours' apt.  More badluck that she was hit than anything else.
I think you have vastly exaggerated expectations of how accurate you can expect even trained people to be with pistols during a stressful situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on September 25, 2020, 02:17:07 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 25, 2020, 11:04:54 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2020, 11:00:31 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 24, 2020, 11:13:26 PM
They hit her five times.  If their aim was shitty, it was shitty in a very consistent way.
5 times out of more than 20 bullets, with 3 officers involved.  It's shitty aim, at best 25% of the bullets hit their target the others flying wide everywhere in the apt and the neighbours' apt.  More badluck that she was hit than anything else.
I think you have vastly exaggerated expectations of how accurate you can expect even trained people to be with pistols during a stressful situation.

I've only ever fired a gun time in my life.  Mrs B and I went to a shooting range as part of my birthday.

Even in a very calm and relaxed shooting range, it was difficult for me to even hit the target, never mind hit the centre of it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 26, 2020, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 25, 2020, 11:04:54 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2020, 11:00:31 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 24, 2020, 11:13:26 PM
They hit her five times.  If their aim was shitty, it was shitty in a very consistent way.
5 times out of more than 20 bullets, with 3 officers involved.  It's shitty aim, at best 25% of the bullets hit their target the others flying wide everywhere in the apt and the neighbours' apt.  More badluck that she was hit than anything else.
I think you have vastly exaggerated expectations of how accurate you can expect even trained people to be with pistols during a stressful situation.
I had a recent chat with a firearm instructor who re-trains the police officers in his town.  Even in non stressful situation, it seems their aim is shitty.  About 1/10 can hit center body mass, the others don't even touch the target.

Somehow, I expected Americans to be better with their gun.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 26, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2020, 11:00:31 AM
5 times out of more than 20 bullets, with 3 officers involved.  It's shitty aim, at best 25% of the bullets hit their target the others flying wide everywhere in the apt and the neighbours' apt.  More badluck that she was hit than anything else.
And I doubt a jury would condemn the officers since they were shot at first and an independant investigation has concluded they knocked and announced themselves.

That's not shitty aim, that's shitty luck on her part.  No one was shooting at her, they were just blazing away into an occupied building, hoping to kill someone.

None of them should ever have been made cops, and none should ever be legally allowed to touch a gun again.  They cannot be trusted with things that could hurt others.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 26, 2020, 11:51:51 PM
Is there a visual of some kind depicting the scene?  I have a hard time picturing what the situation was even after all this time.  Frankly, I find it very hard to picture how someone can be struck by stray bullets 5 times out of 20 shots fired.  You have to be pretty good and calm shooter to hit your intended target so many times, how can you hit a bystander so many times?  Is it certain that she was a bystander and not a mistaken target?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on September 27, 2020, 12:29:36 AM
Speaking of mistaken - have there been any consequences for the cops being at the wrong apartment in the first place?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 27, 2020, 01:53:03 AM
Speaking of mistaken, the sole witness who heard police announce themselves was a late convert to the story.  Originally he said they didn't announce themselves.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on September 27, 2020, 04:57:51 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 27, 2020, 12:29:36 AM
Speaking of mistaken - have there been any consequences for the cops being at the wrong apartment in the first place?

It really seems to be a tragic, cascading stream of factors from poorly trained officers using flawed search/raid tactics involving a sloppy investigation with flawed (if not illegal) tactics/procedures.

The entire case would probably not even be news if there were not the death of an innocent victim.  And even that would have been a tragedy of sorts, in itself, in that all of the aforementioned would have just been ignored (and might still be, alas). 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 27, 2020, 05:08:56 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 27, 2020, 04:57:51 AM
It really seems to be a tragic, cascading stream of factors from poorly trained officers using flawed search/raid tactics involving a sloppy investigation with flawed (if not illegal) tactics/procedures.

The entire case would probably not even be news if there were not the death of an innocent victim.  And even that would have been a tragedy of sorts, in itself, in that all of the aforementioned would have just been ignored (and might still be, alas).
Athough I wonder if people are poorly trained and using flawed tactics sloppily because they know they won't be consequences, even up to the point they kill an innocent person.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on September 27, 2020, 06:01:25 AM
Years ago, a buddy of mine was driving through NE Alabama to a climbing spot, and he got pulled over for speeding. Not a big deal--only it was odd because this buddy is the slowest driver I know and we were both 99% sure the cop saying he was going 60 in a 35 or whatever he said was full of shit. But whatever, there was a license and registration check and he just got a warning.

Yesterday, in about the same place, a cop drove up behind me. The speed limit was 35 and I had cruise control set to 37-38. Other people in the car were giving me grief about how slow I was going, and I said I couldn't speed up because a cop was behind me. He kept following me forever--and people in the car started joking with me that the police in Alabama were on to me for the warrants I must have outstanding. Then I got pulled over! He said I was going 53 which is 100% bullshit. I saw him drive up behind me when I was stopped at a light, and never even got up to 40.

I just got a warning, so it is in no way a big deal. But it is kind of jarring to see without ambiguity that the cops are just be pulling people over with out of state tags without any cause to basically "check their papers".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on September 27, 2020, 10:21:33 PM
I hate the entire "the cops announced themselves" part anyway.

We live in a country that fetishizes people right to shoot other as long as they feel remotely threatened, and extra fetishizes the desireability of shooting anyone on your property who you think does not belong there.

Even if the cops announce themselves, and so so loudly, it seems beyond reasonable expectation that someone is going to wake up in the middle of the night from a dead sleep, here a bunch of yelling, and be calm and rational enough to realize it is the police before they open fire.

Not to mention that an "announcement" is worth nothing. Anyone can yell anything, just because the person breaking into my house in the middle of the night yells "POLICE!" doesn't mean they ARE police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
They went to a judge and got a no knock warrant so they could knock and announce themselves, that makes total sense.  How could anyone question that story? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 12:45:21 AM
I know pretty much jack about firearms but years ago I went to a range and did one of this intro courses, one thing that made an impression was the discussion about handing firearms when in a structure because bullets have a tendency to go through things when fired from a gun. Yet trained officers fired 32 bullets in a crowded apartment complex. 

For what?  Because a nobody drug dealer was seen taking a USPS package out the house.  That was enough reason for police to bash down someone's door in the middle of the night with a battering ram.

It's like everything screwed up with our criminal justice system distilled into one horrifying set of events.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 01:11:07 AM
"Affiant is requesting a No-Knock entry to the premises due to the nature of how these drug traffickers operate. These drug traffickers have a history of attempting to destroy evidence, have cameras on the location that compromise Detectives once an approach to the dwelling is made, and a have history of fleeing from law enforcement."

Although the warrant is ostensibly directed to two drug specific named drug dealers, "these drug traffickers" does not refer to them.  Did Glover have cameras installed at that apartment complex to track police?  If so I've seen no report to that

The usage is akin to "these people".  It is just a generic way of describing how all drug dealers supposedly operate, which in the context of a decades long drug "war" is a generic way to get judicial imprimatur for a legalized home invasion in force. "Those people" are sneaky sorts so the Constitution can be suspended in the neighborhoods where they operate. The constitutional process of ensuring probable cause and securing a proper warrant to protect the rights of the people become a routinized process of presenting bureaucratic magic words in return for a judicial blank check.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 01:23:04 AM
TL DR if you have 3 police armed to the teeth with a battering ram smashing down a private residence in the middle of the night because MAYBE there is some mail there for a nobody slinging dime bags, the situation is already FUBAR.  It can only go downhill from there. And this time it went way down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:15:06 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 27, 2020, 06:01:25 AM
I just got a warning, so it is in no way a big deal. But it is kind of jarring to see without ambiguity that the cops are just be pulling people over with out of state tags without any cause to basically "check their papers".
there goes white priviledge.

and people say we're racist when we remark cops do it all the time for whites too.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
They went to a judge and got a no knock warrant so they could knock and announce themselves, that makes total sense.  How could anyone question that story?
I read somewhere that their orders were changed on the day of the operation, despite the mandate.

Don't know if that makes sense.  Don't know what to think either that one witness says he heard them once and none of the others seem to have heard them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on September 29, 2020, 05:55:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Don't know if that makes sense.  Don't know what to think either that one witness says he heard them once and none of the others seem to have heard them.
That one witness didn't hear it right away, he heard it weeks later.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on September 29, 2020, 06:03:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 12:45:21 AM
I know pretty much jack about firearms but years ago I went to a range and did one of this intro courses, one thing that made an impression was the discussion about handing firearms when in a structure because bullets have a tendency to go through things when fired from a gun. Yet trained officers fired 32 bullets in a crowded apartment complex. 

For what?  Because a nobody drug dealer was seen taking a USPS package out the house.  That was enough reason for police to bash down someone's door in the middle of the night with a battering ram.

It's like everything screwed up with our criminal justice system distilled into one horrifying set of events.

Tunnel vision and adrenalin.

Modern Policing mentality of the hammer and the nail.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 09:11:52 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 29, 2020, 05:55:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Don't know if that makes sense.  Don't know what to think either that one witness says he heard them once and none of the others seem to have heard them.
That one witness didn't hear it right away, he heard it weeks later.
doesn't seem so.  At the very least, we have strong evidence the cops whispered police
at least twice since no one heard them knock&announce themselves 3 times.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on September 30, 2020, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 09:11:52 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 29, 2020, 05:55:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Don't know if that makes sense.  Don't know what to think either that one witness says he heard them once and none of the others seem to have heard them.
That one witness didn't hear it right away, he heard it weeks later.
doesn't seem so.  At the very least, we have strong evidence the cops whispered police
at least twice since no one heard them knock&announce themselves 3 times.

You are correct.  Sarpee changed his story two months later, not 'weeks" later.  In the immediate aftermath of the event, Sarpee testified that he never heard the police announce themselves (agreeing with eleven other witnesses).  Two months later, he testified in front of the police integrity commission that he had heard them announce themselves.  It is unclear what was presented to the grand jury, but the DA concluded that, since the officers said that they announced themselves, they must have done so.

I agree with the argument that no fair jury would be likely to return convictions on murder charges, but think that there were a lot more grounds for something like negligent homicide than the DA was willing to admit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on September 30, 2020, 11:46:56 AM
Honestly, we need some kind of law that states if a police officer violates procedure and it ends in someone's death then the officer in question is automatically charged of negligent homicide.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on September 30, 2020, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on September 30, 2020, 11:43:06 AM
I agree with the argument that no fair jury would be likely to return convictions on murder charges, but think that there were a lot more grounds for something like negligent homicide than the DA was willing to admit.
I understand that some members of the grand jury are calling for a release of what they heard etc because they're unhappy with the DA's public statements since then.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 30, 2020, 01:26:38 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:15:06 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 27, 2020, 06:01:25 AM
I just got a warning, so it is in no way a big deal. But it is kind of jarring to see without ambiguity that the cops are just be pulling people over with out of state tags without any cause to basically "check their papers".
there goes white priviledge.

and people say we're racist when we remark cops do it all the time for whites too.

The difference here is that AR got off with a warning. The same can't be said for any number of "coloreds" who end up being pulled over.

I mean, I'm fairly certain you weren't taught by your mother before you could drive how to protect yourself if the police pull you over. I know I didn't teach my sons that. Yet every black boy and man that I know has been taught specifically how to handle themselves if they're pulled over by police. There's recently been an article out by a black man who talked about how he had to teach his young son to videotape so that if he ever got pulled over, his son was able to capture the encounter.

There's your white privilege, Viper.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on September 30, 2020, 01:27:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2020, 11:46:56 AM
Honestly, we need some kind of law that states if a police officer violates procedure and it ends in someone's death then the officer in question is automatically charged of negligent homicide.

The problem is when they don't violate procedure and someone dies anyway. The procedures and training are often as much to blame as the mistakes. That's where the fix has to be.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 30, 2020, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 28, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
They went to a judge and got a no knock warrant so they could knock and announce themselves, that makes total sense.  How could anyone question that story?
I read somewhere that their orders were changed on the day of the operation, despite the mandate.

As much as it pains me to say I don't entirely trust the word of the state AG on this manner absent corroborating evidence, I'm afraid I don't entirely trust the AG's word on the matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on October 01, 2020, 03:20:57 PM
And people wonder why we don't trust Trump and/or Barr to handle the current melt-down on policing in the US.

Link (https://in.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-justice-rights-exclusive-idINKBN26M7CG)

QuoteWASHINGTON (Reuters) - Before a U.S. federal judge on Thursday halted the work of a Trump administration law enforcement commission - saying it had violated public meetings laws - the panel had been warned about shutting out public input by several of its own participants, internal records reviewed by Reuters show.

But the secretive process to produce the planned report drew criticism from some law enforcement representatives helping draft the document, internal emails among the participants show. The order to halt the commission's work, from U.S. District Judge John Bates, came in response to a lawsuit filed by the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund (NAACP LDF) alleging the commission failed to give notice of public hearings and allowed law enforcement groups to have undue influence.

The panel's 18 commissioners include federal, state and local law enforcement representatives, but no civil rights advocates, defense attorneys or big-city police officials.

Among the participants who warned the panel about its closed process was Fayetteville, North Carolina Police Chief Gina Hawkins, a commission member. In an May 11 email reviewed by Reuters, she told commission chairman Phil Keith that drafting recommendations without hearing from all sides created the appearance of a predetermined conclusion.

Then on Aug. 13, she complained the draft contained too many quotes from Trump and Barr, rather than experts who provided input to the commission, saying the work "should never be political."

Hawkins declined to comment. Keith did not respond to a request for comment.

Two local prosecutors assigned to smaller working groups that support the commission - John Choi of Ramsey County, Minnesota, and Mark Dupree of Wyandotte County, Kansas - wrote to the panel on May 29 expressing concern its recommendations would not sufficiently address "racial disparities in policing" and would "erode local prosecutorial discretion."

Choi has since asked for his name to be removed from the final report. He told Reuters the commission declined to give him access to recommendations being crafted by other working groups. Dupree did not respond to a request for comment.

The White House declined to comment on the panel's work or the court ruling, referring questions to the Justice Department.

Prior to Judge Bates' ruling on Thursday, Justice Department spokeswoman Kristina Mastropasqua declined to comment on the commission's work or the draft proposals reviewed by Reuters. Department spokeswoman Kerri Kupec declined to comment on the ruling after it was issued.

In unveiling the panel last year, Trump foreshadowed that it would produce a report that would be applauded by law enforcement. He told a conference of the International Association of Police Chiefs (IACP) in that the administration would begin immediately implementing the commission's best recommendations once it issued them.

"They'll have them soon," he said, "because most of them already know many of the answers before they begin; you understand that."


LACK OF ALTERNATIVE INPUT

Concerns about systemic racism in policing were not addressed in any of the draft sections of the document seen by Reuters.

The lack of diverse viewpoints prompted the NAACP LDF to sue the commission, Barr and top commission members, accusing them of violating the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) by not providing notice of public hearings and stacking it with only law enforcement officials.

The government denied the civil rights group access to "a representative voice on the Commission," Bates wrote in his ruling on Thursday. The court ordered the panel to halt work and provide timely notice of meetings, and ordered Barr to appoint a federal official to ensure that the commission has a "fairly balanced membership." Bates barred the commission from publishing a report until it had complied with federal open meetings and transparency laws.

Amid complaints about a lack of diverse input, the commission actively sought the opinions of law enforcement insiders, commission records reviewed by Reuters show.

Tim Richardson, the lobbyist for the Fraternal Order of Police, the largest organization of sworn law enforcement, is not publicly named as a member of any group working on the draft. But an April 10 email reveals he was introduced as a member of a group developing the "Respect for Law Enforcement" chapter to others working on the chapter. His comments are cited in the footnote of an August draft to support a recommendation urging Congress to craft "a uniform minimal level of procedural due process" for police.

Richardson did not respond to requests for comment. The Justice Department said in court papers Richardson was not a member of the working group but was retained as an expert.


PROPOSING NEW POLICE POWERS

Draft proposals from the commission, obtained by Reuters through public records requests, offer a window into how Trump's Justice Department views the role of the law enforcement amid a national upheaval over police killings of Black men and women.

The commission started its work before the May killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, which sparked nationwide protests against racism and police brutality. Attorney General William Barr in January said the commission would recommend best practices at a time when "criminal threats and social conditions have changed the responsibilities and roles of police officers."

The proposals included allowing officers accused of wrongdoing to view body camera footage before speaking to internal investigators; increasing funding for controversial facial recognition technologies; giving police access to encrypted cell phones; and increasing penalties for illegal immigration.

The draft recommendations also take aim at "progressive prosecutors" who advocate for eliminating cash bail and not charging low-level drug offenses.

Other recommendations urged Congress to bolster due process protections for police officers accused of wrongdoing and call on the Justice Department to regularly affirm support for "qualified immunity," a Supreme Court precedent that protects officers accused of injuring or killing suspects in civil lawsuits.

Many of the proposals calling for legislative action likely would not win support from a House of Representatives controlled by Democrats.


SECOND-GUESSING PROSECUTORS

An August chapter draft made multiple recommendations reflecting the administration's concerns that some locally elected prosecutors are going too easy on low-level offenders, such as those accused of marijuana possession. Among the proposed reforms including calling on states to establish oversight committees to review charging decisions.

"When a prosecutor unilaterally decides to not prosecute an entire category of crimes ... that prosecutor is usurping legislative authority," it says.

A draft chapter on technology calls for increased funding for facial recognition technologies, though a government-funded study last year found had higher rates of error in identifying African-American and Asian faces.

The draft also recommends a legislative fix to address recent concerns by the FBI, after it struggled to access the encrypted iPhone of a Royal Saudi Air Force trainee who killed three American sailors in a December attack at a U.S. naval base.

"Companies are building electronic devices and platforms that apply 'warrant-proof' encryption," a June draft chapter reads. "Those companies are blinding the nation to preventable attacks."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2020, 04:17:42 PM
QuoteSECOND-GUESSING PROSECUTORS

An August chapter draft made multiple recommendations reflecting the administration's concerns that some locally elected prosecutors are going too easy on low-level offenders, such as those accused of marijuana possession. Among the proposed reforms including calling on states to establish oversight committees to review charging decisions.

"When a prosecutor unilaterally decides to not prosecute an entire category of crimes ... that prosecutor is usurping legislative authority," it says.

I find the idea intriguing, let's apply it at the federal level and have oversight commissions second guessing the USAG on lax voting rights enforcement, antitrust violations, securities fraud, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 01, 2020, 04:24:54 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2020, 04:17:42 PM
QuoteSECOND-GUESSING PROSECUTORS

An August chapter draft made multiple recommendations reflecting the administration's concerns that some locally elected prosecutors are going too easy on low-level offenders, such as those accused of marijuana possession. Among the proposed reforms including calling on states to establish oversight committees to review charging decisions.

"When a prosecutor unilaterally decides to not prosecute an entire category of crimes ... that prosecutor is usurping legislative authority," it says.

I find the idea intriguing, let's apply it at the federal level and have oversight commissions second guessing the USAG on lax voting rights enforcement, antitrust violations, securities fraud, etc.

Well it is pretty fucking weird to have elected prosecutors saying they won't enforce certain laws.

But I suspect that my suggestion of not electing prosecutors will fall on deaf ears.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
Law enforcement resources are not infinite.  Going after low level drug offenders uses up those resources -  you do tie up arresting officers, prosecutors, magistrates, clerks, translators etc. and fill up prisons with a near infinite supply of such people getting room and board on the state dime.  Same is true using state resources to help feds chase around otherwise law abiding illegal immigrants.  In a time of highly strained state finances it is barking mad to talk about forcing to waste money this way.

In the 50s Ike warned of the troubling connections and revolving door between industrialists, the defense bureaucracy, lobbyists and political propagandists with respect to the US military.  But in the 21st century there is a parallel criminal justice-industrial complex with private prison operators, police unions, "tough-on-crime" politicians, and entire parsitical ecosystems of consultants, "experts" and data jockeys.  There is a lot of money to be made in the "war on crime" just as there was money to made in the Cold War or the "war on terrorism." Although the public benefit from thousands of minor drug busts may be unclear, it can be lucrative for the prisons that house the offenders and provides regular work for dues paying law enforcement personnel.  It is telling that recent steps to decriminalizing pot occurred not because of any new information about the risks of the drug but because Wall Street and K Street finally figured out that more money could be made from selling and regulating then from busting and imprisoning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 01, 2020, 05:04:20 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 30, 2020, 01:26:38 PM
The difference here is that AR got off with a warning. The same can't be said for any number of "coloreds" who end up being pulled over.

I mean, I'm fairly certain you weren't taught by your mother before you could drive how to protect yourself if the police pull you over. I know I didn't teach my sons that. Yet every black boy and man that I know has been taught specifically how to handle themselves if they're pulled over by police. There's recently been an article out by a black man who talked about how he had to teach his young son to videotape so that if he ever got pulled over, his son was able to capture the encounter.

There's your white privilege, Viper.
How often does someone posts on FB that he just got a warning by an abusive cop?  :)

I've heard of several instances where people I know, including me, were arrested, or followed very closely by cops until a mistake was made so we could be arrested.  Sometimes, it's a warning, other times it's not.
there's a lot of black folks who commented they were arrested for no reason and let go soon after. The exact same thing I often experienced they first time I had a sports car in my mid 20s.

It's sure annoying, but in itself, not a sign that all cops are dirty racist bastards.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 01, 2020, 05:06:10 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 30, 2020, 01:27:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 30, 2020, 11:46:56 AM
Honestly, we need some kind of law that states if a police officer violates procedure and it ends in someone's death then the officer in question is automatically charged of negligent homicide.

The problem is when they don't violate procedure and someone dies anyway. The procedures and training are often as much to blame as the mistakes. That's where the fix has to be.
Raz's idea is a start though.  I don't think he meant it as a be all end all solution.  Just like Louisville eliminating no knock warrants.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2020, 05:07:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 01, 2020, 04:24:54 PM
But I suspect that my suggestion of not electing prosecutors will fall on deaf ears.

Correct and the deafest ears on that subject are attached the same heads involved in the Trump panel.  That last thing in the world they would want would be to depoliticize criminal justice and run it on technocratic, rational principles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 05, 2020, 02:54:20 PM
https://www.fox4news.com/news/family-says-jonathan-price-killed-in-wolfe-city-officer-involved-shooting-while-breaking-up-fight

QuoteFamily says Jonathan Price killed in Wolfe City officer-involved shooting while breaking up fight

WOLFE CITY, Texas - The family of Jonathan Price says he was fatally shot during an officer-involved shooting in Wolfe City on Saturday while he was breaking up a fight.

Authorities have released few details at this time, but said an investigation is underway into the officer-involved shooting in Wolfe City, which is about 15 miles north of Greenville in Hunt County.

The Texas Rangers are investigating the shooting, and the officer involved has been placed on administrative leave until the investigation is completed.

Price's family said he was the person shot by a Wolfe City police officer, and that he died as a result of the shooting.

They said he was at an Exxon gas station, when he saw a confrontation between a man and woman.

He then tried to break it up, and an officer pulled up

Price's family said the officer may have thought the two men were fighting.

A Taser was deployed, and then the officer fired shots, Price's family said.

Price was reportedly shot multiple times, and died from his injuries.

Police have not confirmed the name of the person shot by the officer, or if it was a fatal shooting.

Since the shooting, people have been posting about Price, saying he was a mentor who worked for the city. Those who were at the scene have said he was doing the right thing.

"Didn't think that was the last time I would see him, he was walking out the truck, going with his friends with a smile on his face...he always smile...now he's gone," Price's mother, Marcella Louis, said.

"Everybody loves Jonathan, everybody, Black, white, Mexicans, everybody. It don't matter, he loved everybody, and they loved him," Price's sister, April Louis, said.

Price's family said a vigil will be held Monday at 7 p.m.

A post from Price from June this year:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjiF1hWXgAAeWDr?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 05, 2020, 03:12:50 PM
I don't understand why the police would open fire because two men were fighting. That makes no sense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on October 05, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2020, 03:12:50 PM
I don't understand why the police would open fire because two men were fighting. That makes no sense.

When all you have is a hammer...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 05, 2020, 03:16:52 PM
That's a shame.  I liked him Brazil.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 05, 2020, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 05, 2020, 03:16:52 PM
That's a shame.  I liked him Brazil.

Yeah, it's weird enough to put the victim's name in the headline, even more so when they share their name with a celebrity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on October 05, 2020, 03:55:16 PM
I think he's a bit of a local celebrity there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 05, 2020, 05:11:19 PM
That's the local news channel.  He was apparently a local sports star in high school and a well-known community character.  Th station's audience would not think of a welsh actor when hearing the name.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 09, 2020, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.

So you can legally kidnap the governor? I hadn't looked at it from that perspective before.

I guess I would follow up with the question that if people are unhappy with a sheriff can they kidnap him?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2020, 12:06:17 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.
I think one absolute necessity is having federal standards on police training, education, and licensing.  The constitution works in the whole of US equally, so law enforcement should not be an entirely local issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 09, 2020, 12:06:17 PM
I think one absolute necessity is having federal standards on police training, education, and licensing.  The constitution works in the whole of US equally, so law enforcement should not be an entirely local issue.
But given that so many of them are elected (so no boss but the voters) isn't that quite tough?

To be honest this was something that came up when I listened to a very good podcast on the Jacob Wetterling case. So I hadn't thought about this sort of issue, but they were talking about the problem of local PDs just doing bad jobs, but it not coming out until there's a huge scandal. Until then the guy in charge get's re-elected for 25+ years.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2020, 12:28:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 09, 2020, 12:06:17 PM
I think one absolute necessity is having federal standards on police training, education, and licensing.  The constitution works in the whole of US equally, so law enforcement should not be an entirely local issue.
But given that so many of them are elected (so no boss but the voters) isn't that quite tough?

To be honest this was something that came up when I listened to a very good podcast on the Jacob Wetterling case. So I hadn't thought about this sort of issue, but they were talking about the problem of local PDs just doing bad jobs, but it not coming out until there's a huge scandal. Until then the guy in charge get's re-elected for 25+ years.
I'm talking about things in general. Such bozos may be elected, but they're the tip of the iceberg.  The big part of the iceberg is the lack of professionalism among rank and file.  The less professionally trained the police force is, the more they're trained "on the street" by the older wiseguy cops, and the more they're going to act like blue mafia rather than a civil service. 

In the US, there is a huge disparity in training quality, and typically the higher up in the hierarchy of police forces you go, the more extensive the training is, and the more forcefully instilling of professional culture it is.  Once you reach the critical mass of law enforcement officers who view themselves as professional, you'll make it very difficult for the rest to be brazen assholes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 09, 2020, 12:40:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2020, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20 (https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20)

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.

So you can legally kidnap the governor? I hadn't looked at it from that perspective before.

I guess I would follow up with the question that if people are unhappy with a sheriff can they kidnap him?
Tbf, he didn't say they had a right to kidnap the governor.  He just says there's kidnap, and then there's kidnap ;)  He also questions the validity of the charges and insists they're innocent until proven guilty.  Somehow, I doubt he'd say the same if his officers arrested some protesters at a leftist rally.  But I might just presume things without any evidence whatsoever here...  :hmm:

In his mind, it would be totally legal for any group to enter a government office and place the Governor (or, I guess, any other elected government official) under arrest, presumably for not doing her job correctly.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in US&Michigan law to determine the validity of that statement, but if it is really a legal thing in some/all US States, than I find that mind boggling. 

The recall procedure is a nice, democratic thing, but armed thugs performing a "citizen arrest" to depose a duly elected official, popular or not, that's not something I would approve of in a democracy.  But again, I must stress that I am unfamiliar with the specific laws of your country or Michigan State that would allow that.  I kinda suspect he is really, really, stretching the law here, but I'll let one of the lawyers determine the truth of the statement here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 09, 2020, 12:44:00 PM
I hope there is no concept of citizen's trial or citizen's execution there. :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 09, 2020, 12:53:30 PM
Isn't Michigan that fucked up place where the lawmakers made it legal to walk around the capitol with guns, and then became afraid when people started walking around the capitol with guns?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 09, 2020, 02:02:27 PM
Was reading Fox News website yesterday, and read something about Breonna Taylor. 

I really, really, really liked how Fox News insunuates she had something to hide by presenting a picture of her with an AR-15, and her boyfriend with another gun.  White people with guns = Freeeeeddddooooom!   Black people with guns = Thugs! Criminals!
Link (https://www.foxnews.com/us/breonna-taylor-louisville-police-release-investigation)

they always have this insiduous way of presenting facts to make you think what they want.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 09, 2020, 03:12:24 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.

The Sheriff seems forget that under Michigan law a sheriff who says dumb shit on TV can be seized and forced to dance in a public production of Swan Lake in the role of Odette.  Its MCL 36 . . .something or other.  You know the law between the one that says any drunk yahoo can arrest the governor and the one appointing grumbler to the censorate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on October 09, 2020, 03:48:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 09, 2020, 02:02:27 PM
Was reading Fox News website yesterday, and read something about Breonna Taylor. 

I really, really, really liked how Fox News insunuates she had something to hide by presenting a picture of her with an AR-15, and her boyfriend with another gun.  White people with guns = Freeeeeddddooooom!   Black people with guns = Thugs! Criminals!
Link (https://www.foxnews.com/us/breonna-taylor-louisville-police-release-investigation)

they always have this insiduous way of presenting facts to make you think what they want.

'MURICA!  :punk:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tamas on October 09, 2020, 05:10:00 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.

He looks related to them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on October 09, 2020, 05:50:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2020, 05:10:00 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 09, 2020, 11:55:05 AM
The interview with the local Michigan Sheriff about the kidnap-the-governor plot is, as the tweet says, quite something:
https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160?s=20

I feel like there is an issue here with law enforcement that needs looking at - no idea how you fix it.

He looks related to them.

A big issue. He's probably a like mind.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 10, 2020, 08:33:11 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 09, 2020, 12:53:30 PM
Isn't Michigan that fucked up place where the lawmakers made it legal to walk around the capitol with guns, and then became afraid when people started walking around the capitol with guns?

The legislature didn't "[make] it legal to walk around the capitol with guns," but rather didn't make it illegal, but, yeah, that's the place.  What's worse is that Michiganders can't blame this one all on Ohio State bagmen (though the plot did originate in Ohio).

Something weird has happened in the western art of the state, which used to be all hippies and vacationers from Chicago.  Now it seems full of KKK members and right-wing militias.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 10, 2020, 11:24:49 PM
Grand Rapids went from being Gerald Ford territory to the Lordship of De Vos and HQ to America's largest and most respected Ponzi scheme.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on October 14, 2020, 12:45:02 PM
Yeah... still waiting on the body cam footage...

QuoteOLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) — Four officers fired over 30 rounds at Portland, Oregon, fugitive Michael Reinoehl after they cornered him in his car Sept. 3 outside a Washington apartment complex where he had been hiding out, a sheriff's official said Tuesday in an update on the investigation.

Thurston County Sheriff's Lt. Ray Brady said Tuesday that police found Reinoehl with a loaded .380-caliber handgun in his front pocket and his hand on or near the gun after he was fatally shot by police officers in Lacey, The Oregonian/OregonLive reported.

Reinoehl was the suspect in the fatal Portland shooting of Aaron "Jay" Danielson after a pro-Trump car caravan Aug. 29.

Investigators are awaiting lab results to determine whether the gun on Reinoehl, a self-described anti-fascist activist, was the same one used in the Portland shooting.

There were rounds in Reinoehl's gun after it was recovered, Brady said, but he wouldn't say how many.

Questions have swirled around Reinoehl's death after witnesses gave differing accounts of what they saw. All described a chaotic scene with bullets flying while children were outside.

A team led by the Thurston County Sheriff's Office hasn't finished its investigation yet, Brady said, but he has given weekly updates with new details.

Brady said four officers from a multi-agency federal task force pulled up in two unmarked SUVS in front of Reinoehl's Volkswagen. The officers who fired told investigators they gave Reinoehl "commands to stop and show his hands" before they shot him, Brady said. One officer told investigators he saw Reinoehl raise a gun toward him, and another officer said he saw Reinoehl trying to retrieve a gun from his pocket, Brady said.

An autopsy found Reinoehl died from gunshot wounds to the head and upper torso.

Earlier that day, Portland police had obtained a warrant to arrest Reinoehl on second-degree murder and unlawful use of a firearm allegations in the Portland killing.

Reinoehl, who said he provided security for Black Lives Matter protests, was wanted in the death of Danielson, a supporter of the right-wing conservative group Patriot Prayer based in Vancouver, Washington.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 14, 2020, 02:25:23 PM
That all sounds rather fishy. Like they were exacting their own form of justice.

Though since Reinoehl had a weapon they will probably get away with it, if that was the case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:50:32 PM
It seems that Trump mentioned this incident in a rally:

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872 (https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872)

QuoteTrump: We sent in the US Marshals, took 15 minutes and it was over... They knew who he was, they didn't want to arrest him and 15 minutes that ended

Yay for the American president for endorsing state sponsored extra judicial assasinations of American citizens!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on October 15, 2020, 01:51:39 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:50:32 PM
It seems that Trump mentioned this incident in a rally:

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872 (https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872)

QuoteTrump: We sent in the US Marshals, took 15 minutes and it was over... They knew who he was, they didn't want to arrest him and 15 minutes that ended

Yay for the American president for endorsing state sponsored extra judicial assasinations of American citizens!
And the people cheering him :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on October 15, 2020, 02:03:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.

The poison is present in every society. It's grown tremendously in the US over the last 35 years though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on October 15, 2020, 02:07:45 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:50:32 PM
It seems that Trump mentioned this incident in a rally:

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872 (https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872)

QuoteTrump: We sent in the US Marshals, took 15 minutes and it was over... They knew who he was, they didn't want to arrest him and 15 minutes that ended

Yay for the American president for endorsing state sponsored extra judicial assasinations of American citizens!

:blink:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on October 15, 2020, 02:03:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.

The poison is present in every society. It's grown tremendously in the US over the last 35 years though.

True, true, but you've never had a President appealing like him to his countrymen's darkest side.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 15, 2020, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:50:32 PM
It seems that Trump mentioned this incident in a rally:

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872 (https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1316801262277455872)

QuoteTrump: We sent in the US Marshals, took 15 minutes and it was over... They knew who he was, they didn't want to arrest him and 15 minutes that ended

Yay for the American president for endorsing state sponsored extra judicial assasinations of American citizens!

The President is calling for law enforcement to violate the 5th Amendment to the Constitution?

I mean of course he is. It's Donald Trump.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.
The fascists were mostly there before Trump came on the scene, he just made them not latent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 03:01:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.
The fascists were mostly there before Trump came on the scene, he just made them not latent.

I don't meant to say that it was all ok before he came up, just that he has really encouraged and brought the darker side of American society tot he forefront.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 03:01:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.
The fascists were mostly there before Trump came on the scene, he just made them not latent.

I don't meant to say that it was all ok before he came up, just that he has really encouraged and brought the darker side of American society tot he forefront.
That he did.  It truly is frightening what he can get away with saying out loud, and thus normalize it to some degree.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 15, 2020, 03:04:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.
The fascists were mostly there before Trump came on the scene, he just made them not latent.

Its not just the fascists though (I agree with your statement).  It's also the people who "know" what "justice" is and think that it's past time we stopped allowing the "deep state" to prevent the prompt application of "only justice: prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 18, 2020, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 03:01:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 15, 2020, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on October 15, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
That doesn't even surprise me anymore. He's truly poisoned American society.
The fascists were mostly there before Trump came on the scene, he just made them not latent.

I don't meant to say that it was all ok before he came up, just that he has really encouraged and brought the darker side of American society tot he forefront.
That he did.  It truly is frightening what he can get away with saying out loud, and thus normalize it to some degree.
And this is surprising... how?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTACH1eVIaA
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 25, 2020, 05:04:26 AM
https://www.startribune.com/charges-boogaloo-bois-fired-on-mpls-precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/

QuoteTexas member of Boogaloo Bois charged with opening fire on Minneapolis police precinct during protests over George Floyd

Feds say Texas adherent of far-right group fired on precinct building, conspired with cop killer to ignite civil war.

In the wake of protests following the May 25 killing of George Floyd, a member of the Boogaloo Bois opened fire on the Minneapolis Police Third Precinct with an AK-47-style gun and screamed "Justice for Floyd" as he ran away, according to a federal complaint made public Friday.

A sworn affidavit by the FBI underlying the complaint reveals new details about a far-right anti-government group's coordinated role in the violence that roiled through civil unrest over Floyd's death while in police custody.

Ivan Harrison Hunter, a 26-year-old from Boerne, Texas, is charged with one count of interstate travel to incite a riot for his alleged role in ramping up violence during the protests in Minneapolis on May 27 and 28. According to charges, Hunter, wearing a skull mask and tactical gear, shot 13 rounds at the south Minneapolis police headquarters while people were inside. He also looted and helped set the building ablaze, according to the complaint, which was filed Monday under seal.

Unrest flared throughout Minneapolis following Floyd's death, which was captured on a bystander's cellphone video, causing Gov. Tim Walz to activate the Minnesota National Guard. As police clashed with protesters, Hunter and other members of the Boogaloo Bois discussed in private Facebook messages their plans to travel to Minneapolis and rally at the Cub Foods near the Third Precinct building, according to federal court documents. One of the people Hunter coordinated with posted publicly to social media: "Lock and load boys. Boog flags are in the air, and the national network is going off," the complaint states.

Two hours after the police precinct was set on fire, Hunter texted with another Boogaloo member in California, a man named Steven Carrillo.

"Go for police buildings," Hunter told Carrillo, according to charging documents.

"I did better lol," Carrillo replied. A few hours earlier, Carrillo had killed a Federal Protective Services officer in Oakland, Calif., according to criminal charges filed against him in California.

On June 1, Hunter asked Carrillo for money, explaining he needed to "be in the woods for a bit," and Carrillo sent him $200 via a cash app.

Five days later, Carrillo shot and killed a sheriff's deputy in Santa Cruz when authorities tried to arrest him, according to charges filed in California. Authorities say he then stole a car and wrote "Boog" on the hood "in what appeared to be his own blood."

A couple of days later, during police protests in Austin, Texas, police pulled over a truck after seeing three men in tactical gear and carrying guns drive away in it. Hunter, in the front passenger seat, wore six loaded banana magazines for an AK-47-style assault rifle on his tactical vest, according federal authorities. The two other men had AR-15 magazines affixed to their vests. The officers found an AK-47-style rifle and two AR-15 rifles on the rear seat of the vehicle, a pistol next to the driver's seat and another pistol in the center console.

Hunter denied he owned any of the weapons found in the vehicle. He did, according to the complaint, volunteer that he was the leader of the Boogaloo Bois in South Texas and that he was present in Minneapolis when the Third Precinct was set on fire. Police seized the guns and let Hunter and the others go.

Hunter had bragged about his role in the Minneapolis riots on Facebook, publicly proclaiming, "I helped the community burn down that police station" and "I didn't' [sic] protest peacefully Dude ... Want something to change? Start risking felonies for what is good."

"The BLM protesters in Minneapolis loved me [sic] fireteam and I," he wrote on June 11. According to the complaint, "fire team" is a reference to a group he started with Carrillo "that responds with violence if the police try to take their guns away."

"Hunter also referred to himself as a 'terrorist,' " the complaint states.

A confidential informant told police that Hunter planned to "go down shooting" if authorities closed in. He didn't. They arrested him without incident in San Antonio, Texas, this week, and he made his first court appearance Thursday.

Hunter is the third member of the Boogaloo Bois, a loose-knit group intent on igniting a second American civil war, to be charged in Minneapolis as a result of the unrest that followed Floyd's death.

Michael Robert Solomon and Benjamin Ryan Teeter were indicted in September with conspiracy to provide material support to Hamas, a designated foreign terrorist organization.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on October 25, 2020, 05:15:27 AM
Does that go here? Isn't this the school shooting thread? Sounds more like the acts of terror thread material.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 25, 2020, 07:00:55 AM
Amazing that people will leave an electronic record of their conspiracy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on October 27, 2020, 02:50:52 AM


QuotePHILADELPHIA — Police shot and killed a 27-year-old Black man on a Philadelphia street Monday afternoon after yelling at him to drop his knife.

The shooting occurred before 4 p.m. as officers responded to a report of a person with a weapon, police spokesperson Tanya Little said.

Officers were called to the Cobbs Creek neighborhood and encountered the man, later identified as Walter Wallace, who was holding a knife, Ms. Little said.

Officers ordered Mr. Wallace to drop the knife, but he instead "advanced towards" them. Both officers then fired "several times," Ms. Little said.

Mr. Wallace was hit in the shoulder and chest. One of the officers then put him in a police vehicle and drove him to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead a short time later, Ms. Little said.

Video of the fatal confrontation, recorded by a bystander and posted on social media, shows officers pointing their guns at Mr. Wallace as he walks in the street and around a car. He walks toward the officers as they back away from him in the street, guns still aimed at him. They yell at him to put his knife down.

Both then fire several shots, and Mr. Wallace collapses in the street. A woman runs up to him, screaming; several bystanders then approach him.

It is unclear in the video if he had a knife. Witnesses said he was holding one.

No officers or bystanders were injured, Ms. Little said. The names of the officers who fired the shots were not immediately disclosed. Both were wearing body cameras and were taken of street duty pending the investigation.

A large crowd gathered where the man was killed, with video showing many yelling at the police officers and crying. Some people later spoke with city police Commissioner Danielle Outlaw, who arrived at the scene a short time after the shooting occurred. The crowd had mostly dispersed about two hours later.

"I heard and felt the anger of the community," Commissioner Outlaw said in a statement, adding that the video "raises many questions" and that "those questions will be fully addressed by the investigation."

Mr. Wallace's father, Walter Wallace Sr., told The Philadelphia Inquirer that his son was also a father, was on medication and struggled with mental health issues.

"Why didn't they use a Taser?" he asked.

The races of the police officers weren't immediately confirmed. The shooting occurred in a predominantly Black neighborhood in West Philadelphia.

The Inquirer reported that dozens of protesters gathered at a nearby park and chanted "Black lives matter."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 27, 2020, 09:58:57 AM
Quote from: Maladict on October 27, 2020, 02:50:52 AM


QuotePHILADELPHIA — Police shot and killed a 27-year-old Black man on a Philadelphia street Monday afternoon after yelling at him to drop his knife.

The shooting occurred before 4 p.m. as officers responded to a report of a person with a weapon, police spokesperson Tanya Little said.

Officers were called to the Cobbs Creek neighborhood and encountered the man, later identified as Walter Wallace, who was holding a knife, Ms. Little said.

Officers ordered Mr. Wallace to drop the knife, but he instead "advanced towards" them. Both officers then fired "several times," Ms. Little said.

Mr. Wallace was hit in the shoulder and chest. One of the officers then put him in a police vehicle and drove him to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead a short time later, Ms. Little said.

Video of the fatal confrontation, recorded by a bystander and posted on social media, shows officers pointing their guns at Mr. Wallace as he walks in the street and around a car. He walks toward the officers as they back away from him in the street, guns still aimed at him. They yell at him to put his knife down.

Both then fire several shots, and Mr. Wallace collapses in the street. A woman runs up to him, screaming; several bystanders then approach him.

It is unclear in the video if he had a knife. Witnesses said he was holding one.

No officers or bystanders were injured, Ms. Little said. The names of the officers who fired the shots were not immediately disclosed. Both were wearing body cameras and were taken of street duty pending the investigation.

A large crowd gathered where the man was killed, with video showing many yelling at the police officers and crying. Some people later spoke with city police Commissioner Danielle Outlaw, who arrived at the scene a short time after the shooting occurred. The crowd had mostly dispersed about two hours later.

"I heard and felt the anger of the community," Commissioner Outlaw said in a statement, adding that the video "raises many questions" and that "those questions will be fully addressed by the investigation."

Mr. Wallace's father, Walter Wallace Sr., told The Philadelphia Inquirer that his son was also a father, was on medication and struggled with mental health issues.

"Why didn't they use a Taser?" he asked.

The races of the police officers weren't immediately confirmed. The shooting occurred in a predominantly Black neighborhood in West Philadelphia.

The Inquirer reported that dozens of protesters gathered at a nearby park and chanted "Black lives matter."

This one doesn't seem very contentious (other than that the officers did not use - or maybe even have - a taser).  It smells a lot like suicide by cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 11:49:47 AM
I wish people were a little selective with protests of police brutality.  Sometimes police shootings are justified.  When you protest indiscriminately, you lose power to affect change, because your response has no correlation with the actions you're trying to influence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 12:13:50 PM
I remember when people used to criticize tasers as being cruel.  But they are indeed a less lethal form of force.

Not an expert in Philadelphia PD, but in my experience only a handful of officers carry a taser on them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 12:13:50 PM
I remember when people used to criticize tasers as being cruel.  But they are indeed a less lethal form of force.

Not an expert in Philadelphia PD, but in my experience only a handful of officers carry a taser on them.
Is taser even appropriate to deal with someone armed with a knife?  You can go from zero to someone's throat in one second flat with a knife, it's not a toy.  I'm under impression that taser is more for situations where the suspect is unarmed, but resisting so much that subduing them would require administering a severe beatdown by multiple officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 12:13:50 PM
I remember when people used to criticize tasers as being cruel.  But they are indeed a less lethal form of force.

Not an expert in Philadelphia PD, but in my experience only a handful of officers carry a taser on them.
Is taser even appropriate to deal with someone armed with a knife?  You can go from zero to someone's throat in one second flat with a knife, it's not a toy.  I'm under impression that taser is more for situations where the suspect is unarmed, but resisting so much that subduing them would require administering a severe beatdown by multiple officers.

(https://www.hilltimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/IMIM.jpg)

From the RCMP, but captures the general principles.

Even if lethal force could have been justified, police can also rely on intermediate weapons as well.  There's no hard binary options.  For example tactical re-positioning (e.g. backing up) remains an option throughout.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
I don't know what "advanced towards" means in this case. There's a big difference between someone walking towards you with a knife and someone charging you with a knife.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
I don't know what "advanced towards" means in this case. There's a big difference between someone walking towards you with a knife and someone charging you with a knife.

Not a lot.  In both cases the subject is not following directions and getting closer to the officer.

Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Okay Marti.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:40:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
I don't know what "advanced towards" means in this case. There's a big difference between someone walking towards you with a knife and someone charging you with a knife.

Not a lot.  In both cases the subject is not following directions and getting closer to the officer.

Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Okay Marti.

In Sweden there's a difference between cops being in direct danger and cops not being in direct danger. Not following police orders isn't an automatic death sentence in Sweden.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 01:19:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.
There is no concept of shooting in the leg in the US.  Shooting someone in the leg is still dangerous and can kill them, the only safe option is to shoot at the center of mass, or head if at point blank range.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 02:02:16 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 01:19:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.
There is no concept of shooting in the leg in the US.  Shooting someone in the leg is still dangerous and can kill them, the only safe option is to shoot at the center of mass, or head if at point blank range.

The reasoning isn't that shooting in the leg is still dangerous.  It's that it's a lot harder to shoot in the leg, in particular in a dynamic situation.  And because the only justification for shooting is a fear or grievous bodily harm or death, it'd be negligent to take the more risky shot if you could instead shoot centre mass.

For the same reason I don't think they're ever taught to shoot in the head either.

Obviously this is all WRT law enforcement.  Military does its own thing by its own rules.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 02:13:26 PM
In the army our procedure (if someone were to approach us while we were on guard duty) was to first order him to stop, then warn him that you were about to shoot him, then fire a warning shot, and then, if he still was advancing towards you, to drop him center mass (we were not cops).

People have been advancing towards me with sharp implements in Stockholm, in my civilian life. I backed the fuck up, my life wasn't in immediate danger. If I had killed him in that situation the government would have gone "lol wtf" and sent me to gaol for years. And I'm not even a trained cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 02:18:36 PM
You really go to gaol for years if you kill someone?  In Sweden?  :yeahright:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 02:19:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 02:18:36 PM
You really go to gaol for years if you kill someone?  In Sweden?  :rolleyes:

Is there such a thing as too Machiavellian? :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.

You should probably check to see if you are correct about that assumption.  shooting for the legs is not something I have ever scene in a use of force option.  If using a gun becomes necessary it is because the circumstances require lethal force.  At that point it would be ridiculous to try to hit the legs.  At that point police are trained to aim centre mass.  If the situation does not require lethal force, then no shot is justified.

Would look good in a movie though.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.

You should probably check to see if you are correct about that assumption.  shooting for the legs is not something I have ever scene in a use of force option.  If using a gun becomes necessary it is because the circumstances require lethal force.  At that point it would be ridiculous to try to hit the legs.  At that point police are trained to aim centre mass.  If the situation does not require lethal force, then no shot is justified.

Would look good in a movie though.

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 02:13:26 PM
In the army our procedure (if someone were to approach us while we were on guard duty) was to first order him to stop, then warn him that you were about to shoot him, then fire a warning shot, and then, if he still was advancing towards you, to drop him center mass (we were not cops).

People have been advancing towards me with sharp implements in Stockholm, in my civilian life. I backed the fuck up, my life wasn't in immediate danger. If I had killed him in that situation the government would have gone "lol wtf" and sent me to gaol for years. And I'm not even a trained cop.

Okay, so I'll note there's nothing about shooting the leg here, but anyways...

I don't think we're really disagreeing here about much.  If you go back to my fancy Use of Force pinwheel you'll notice that communication (order to stop, warn him), and tactical repositioning (back the fuck up) are always valid options at any level of resistance.  I don't know about a warning shot (what goes up must come down), but that's still all good advice - if you have time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:19:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 02:13:26 PM
In the army our procedure (if someone were to approach us while we were on guard duty) was to first order him to stop, then warn him that you were about to shoot him, then fire a warning shot, and then, if he still was advancing towards you, to drop him center mass (we were not cops).

People have been advancing towards me with sharp implements in Stockholm, in my civilian life. I backed the fuck up, my life wasn't in immediate danger. If I had killed him in that situation the government would have gone "lol wtf" and sent me to gaol for years. And I'm not even a trained cop.

Okay, so I'll note there's nothing about shooting the leg here, but anyways...

I don't think we're really disagreeing here about much.  If you go back to my fancy Use of Force pinwheel you'll notice that communication (order to stop, warn him), and tactical repositioning (back the fuck up) are always valid options at any level of resistance.  I don't know about a warning shot (what goes up must come down), but that's still all good advice - if you have time.

Tiny additional detail: the army warning shot was in the ground in front of the guy. Just as a curiosity (the risk to second and third parties is significant, but we weren't cops...). :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on October 27, 2020, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 27, 2020, 09:58:57 AM


This one doesn't seem very contentious (other than that the officers did not use - or maybe even have - a taser).  It smells a lot like suicide by cop.

I don't know, it does look fairly excessive in the video.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maladict on October 27, 2020, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.

Shooting in the leg is pretty common here as well. It's typically used to stop a suspect getting away, though. Shooting at center mass is only allowed in self defense and as a last resort.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.

You should probably check to see if you are correct about that assumption.  shooting for the legs is not something I have ever scene in a use of force option.  If using a gun becomes necessary it is because the circumstances require lethal force.  At that point it would be ridiculous to try to hit the legs.  At that point police are trained to aim centre mass.  If the situation does not require lethal force, then no shot is justified.

Would look good in a movie though.

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.

I am likewise shocked Swedish police are trained to shoot when lethal force is not required.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.

You should probably check to see if you are correct about that assumption.  shooting for the legs is not something I have ever scene in a use of force option.  If using a gun becomes necessary it is because the circumstances require lethal force.  At that point it would be ridiculous to try to hit the legs.  At that point police are trained to aim centre mass.  If the situation does not require lethal force, then no shot is justified.

Would look good in a movie though.

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.

I am likewise shocked Swedish police are trained to shoot when lethal force is not required.

Seems to me that there may be some advantages to having a fairly non-lethal response completely ready even while you have a lethal response ready, so you can pick your response depending on the action of the person. You don't pull your gun unless lethal force may be required.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 27, 2020, 03:36:17 PM
Set your phasers on stun!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:38:53 PM
Quote from: Maladict on October 27, 2020, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.

Shooting in the leg is pretty common here as well. It's typically used to stop a suspect getting away, though. Shooting at center mass is only allowed in self defense and as a last resort.

See here use can not use lethal force merely to prevent someone from escaping.  At all.  Even shooting at the leg is much to high a risk to the suspect and to bystanders.  If the suspect is running you better go catch them.  Of course this is where canine officers come in so handy...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 03:51:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:38:53 PM
See here use can not use lethal force merely to prevent someone from escaping.  At all.
I don't think that's completely true, at least not in the US.  The nut who killed four cops in Washington was shot while running away, and that was the official story.  It was rules justified given the danger he posed to the public.

EDIT:  Actually, now that I checked, there was a claim that he reached for something before he was shot.  But I do recall reading that shooting him while he was running away would've been justified.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:54:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.

You should probably check to see if you are correct about that assumption.  shooting for the legs is not something I have ever scene in a use of force option.  If using a gun becomes necessary it is because the circumstances require lethal force.  At that point it would be ridiculous to try to hit the legs.  At that point police are trained to aim centre mass.  If the situation does not require lethal force, then no shot is justified.

Would look good in a movie though.

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.

I am likewise shocked Swedish police are trained to shoot when lethal force is not required.

Seems to me that there may be some advantages to having a fairly non-lethal response completely ready even while you have a lethal response ready, so you can pick your response depending on the action of the person. You don't pull your gun unless lethal force may be required.

Sure, but firing a gun is not a "fairly non-lethal response"  unless your cops have some secret technique that allows them to always hit the target they want when they discharge a firearm.  And if they are not pulling their gun unless lethal force is required how the hell do they have time shoot for the legs.  Clearly there are other options open to them if they have time to do a trick shot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 03:51:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:38:53 PM
See here use can not use lethal force merely to prevent someone from escaping.  At all.
I don't think that's completely true, at least not in the US.  The nut who killed four cops in Washington was shot while running away, and that was the official story.  It was rules justified given the danger he posed to the public.

EDIT:  Actually, now that I checked, there was a claim that he reached for something before he was shot.  But I do recall reading that shooting him while he was running away would've been justified.

Check again.  That would be surprising.  But Brain has taught us that there are nutty rules out there for cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 03:51:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 03:38:53 PM
See here use can not use lethal force merely to prevent someone from escaping.  At all.
I don't think that's completely true, at least not in the US.  The nut who killed four cops in Washington was shot while running away, and that was the official story.  It was rules justified given the danger he posed to the public.

Well then he wasn't shot for running away - he was shot for being an ongoing risk of grievous bodily harm to the public (to use the Canadian language).

:goodboy:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Check again.  That would be surprising.
Checked again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: derspiess on October 27, 2020, 03:57:47 PM
Aiming at anything other than center of mass at normal distances just does not seem practical.  These are pistols, not sniper rifles.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:03:38 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Check again.  That would be surprising.
Checked again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

Good, now read your link and read your post and you will see the test for shooting is much higher than you stated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Check again.  That would be surprising.
Checked again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

I really don't like relying on Wiki for legal conclusions, but even your own link says that although the common law authorized the use of deadly force on a fleeing suspect, the USSC in Tennesse v Garner said it was llimited to non-lethal force.

In Canada (because I know y'all love your Canadian criminal law) criminal law has been codified and the common law rules largely don't exist any longer.  Under s. 25 a police officer can use force likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm only if such force is necessary to protect the officer or any other person from death or grievous bodily harm.

So a fleeing suspect armed with a gun might qualify, depending on the totality of the circumstances.  But a fleeing suspect with no weapon, even if they committed a horrible crime, does not allow for the use of deadly force to apprehend.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:07:37 PM
It says it right there that it's limited only in most cases:
QuoteUnder U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited in 1985 to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1. The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."[3]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:54:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
FWIW my impression from the little info in the article is that it's a situation where Swedish cops would have shot him in the leg.

Wait, Swedish police shoot for the leg?

Yes? Obviously if possible not until after having tried less dangerous means.

You should probably check to see if you are correct about that assumption.  shooting for the legs is not something I have ever scene in a use of force option.  If using a gun becomes necessary it is because the circumstances require lethal force.  At that point it would be ridiculous to try to hit the legs.  At that point police are trained to aim centre mass.  If the situation does not require lethal force, then no shot is justified.

Would look good in a movie though.

I'm shocked that different countries have different ways of doing things. Whowuddathunkit?

Police shooting people in the leg is a fairly common news story in Sweden, and it's not because they are lousy shots and missed center of mass. This is from the website of Swedish police (Google translate):

"If the police shoot at a person, they should strive to neutralize the person only at the moment. The shots should primarily be aimed at the legs, but if the circumstances require it, the police may fire directly at the upper body - for example if the threatening person is close in the distance and the attack goes fast."

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

Note: parts of the website is available in English but I didn't find an English version of this particular page, which describes the way the police use firearms.

I am likewise shocked Swedish police are trained to shoot when lethal force is not required.

Seems to me that there may be some advantages to having a fairly non-lethal response completely ready even while you have a lethal response ready, so you can pick your response depending on the action of the person. You don't pull your gun unless lethal force may be required.

Sure, but firing a gun is not a "fairly non-lethal response"  unless your cops have some secret technique that allows them to always hit the target they want when they discharge a firearm.  And if they are not pulling their gun unless lethal force is required how the hell do they have time shoot for the legs.  Clearly there are other options open to them if they have time to do a trick shot.

Most people who are shot in the legs by cops in Sweden survive. Obviously not all, that's why I explicitly said "fairly" non-lethal. The techniques for shooting at legs are not secret AFAIK, they are techniques taught to cops during training in Sweden (my layman guess is that they involve aiming at the legs). Obviously there are never any 100% guarantees in anything, if that is the standard then we have to stop human activity so I assume you weren't being literal about that. And how is your reading comprehension? I explicitly said lethal force "may" be required. How did you make that into them not pulling the gun unless lethal force is required?

Given that earlier today you weren't even aware that there are countries where cops aim at legs, are you sure you have thought this whole thing through enough?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Most people who are shot in the legs by cops in Sweden survive. Obviously not all, that's why I explicitly said "fairly" non-lethal. The techniques for shooting at legs are not secret AFAIK, they are techniques taught to cops during training in Sweden (my layman guess is that they involve aiming at the legs). Obviously there are never any 100% guarantees in anything, if that is the standard then we have to stop human activity so I assume you weren't being literal about that. And how is your reading comprehension? I explicitly said lethal force "may" be required. How did you make that into them not pulling the gun unless lethal force is required?

Given that earlier today you weren't even aware that there are countries where cops aim at legs, are you sure you have thought this whole thing through enough?

I really can't speak to what Swedish law says.  I can however speak to what makes sense.

Police have lots of non-lethal force options.  They can use strikes, punches or kicks.  They can use their baton.  They have OC spray and a taser.  Canine officer can let lose their police dog.  Heck they can draw their firearm to a low ready.

But once you open fire that's a use of potentially lethal force, no matter what you're aiming at.

Edit: LOW ready.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:16:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Given that earlier today you weren't even aware that there are countries where cops aim at legs, are you sure you have thought this whole thing through enough?

I concede I was not aware that police were are allowed to shoot in your country when other options are still available.  The fact that Sweden has a daft use of force rule is grounds for one of us to reconsider if they have thought this through, but I don't think it is me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:24:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:07:37 PM
It says it right there that it's limited only in most cases:
QuoteUnder U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited in 1985 to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1. The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."[3]

Dude, it says right there "significant threat of death or serious bodily harm"  not just to posing a danger to the public, which is what I said would be a surprising result.  If the test was that low the police could shoot pretty much anyone fleeing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:30:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Most people who are shot in the legs by cops in Sweden survive. Obviously not all, that's why I explicitly said "fairly" non-lethal. The techniques for shooting at legs are not secret AFAIK, they are techniques taught to cops during training in Sweden (my layman guess is that they involve aiming at the legs). Obviously there are never any 100% guarantees in anything, if that is the standard then we have to stop human activity so I assume you weren't being literal about that. And how is your reading comprehension? I explicitly said lethal force "may" be required. How did you make that into them not pulling the gun unless lethal force is required?

Given that earlier today you weren't even aware that there are countries where cops aim at legs, are you sure you have thought this whole thing through enough?

I really can't speak to what Swedish law says.  I can however speak to what makes sense.

Police have lots of non-lethal force options.  They can use strikes, punches or kicks.  They can use their baton.  They have OC spray and a taser.  Canine officer can let lose their police dog.  Heck they can draw their firearm to a low ready.

But once you open fire that's a use of potentially lethal force, no matter what you're aiming at.

Edit: LOW ready.

Yes? Shooting is of course always the last resort, after other methods have failed or are impossible. Why would anyone assume that Swedish cops don't do those? The Swedish thinking is that, given a situation that the cop actually has to open fire, it is better if the person is only wounded and not killed by the gunfire. This thinking is not controversial in Sweden.

From the Swedish Police website:

"What are the police doing to avoid shootings?

The basis for the police is to try to solve situations by talking to those involved as far as possible. In the vast majority of interventions, the police succeed. Even in very threatening and dangerous situations, the police primarily try to use verbal communication to resolve conflicts, sometimes with the help of specially trained negotiators or dialogue police.

But sometimes the threat is so serious that it requires the police to use one of the tools the police have for the use of force - handcuffs, batons, pepper spray or guns. Firearms are the absolute last resort.

The police have a strong focus on training, partly in basic training for police officers, and partly through continuous training in the business. A large part is about communication, mental preparation and being able to make quick decisions in different situations. The police also train practically in using physical techniques and the various aids.
"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:24:58 PM
Dude, it says right there "significant threat of death or serious bodily harm"  not just to posing a danger to the public, which is what I said would be a surprising result.  If the test was that low the police could shoot pretty much anyone fleeing.
Dude, I mentioned this in the context of the story about a Lakewood shooting of four cops, and a likely attempted ambush of another cop that ultimately killed the suspect.  I thought it was clear enough from the context what I meant by "danger to the public" that I did not have to tediously elaborate, and I still think that it was.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:31:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:16:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Given that earlier today you weren't even aware that there are countries where cops aim at legs, are you sure you have thought this whole thing through enough?

I concede I was not aware that police were are allowed to shoot in your country when other options are still available.  The fact that Sweden has a daft use of force rule is grounds for one of us to reconsider if they have thought this through, but I don't think it is me.

I don't know why you think Swedish cops shoot people when other options are available.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:44:08 PM
I think the problem is that the "deadly force" is not the best name.  I think a more accurate descriptor would be "potentially deadly incapacitating force", because that's what it really is.  When you start shooting, you do it because you have to incapacitate someone immediately and you have no softer options, even if that carries the risk of death.  You don't do it because you now decided that someone needs to be killed. 

When you think of it as an incapacitating force, it seems to make more sense that maybe it would be a good idea to try to not make it more deadly that it has to be.  Maybe you give up slightly on the incapacitation score when you try to drive down the potentially deadly score, but that doesn't strike me as an unreasonable choice for a society to make.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on October 27, 2020, 04:47:20 PM
Do Swedes know what arteries are?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:44:08 PM
I think the problem is that the "deadly force" is not the best name.  I think a more accurate descriptor would be "potentially deadly incapacitating force", because that's what it really is.  When you start shooting, you do it because you have to incapacitate someone immediately and you have no softer options, even if that carries the risk of death.  You don't do it because you now decided that someone needs to be killed. 

When you think of it as an incapacitating force, it seems to make more sense that maybe it would be a good idea to try to not make it more deadly that it has to be.  Maybe you give up slightly on the incapacitation score when you try to drive down the potentially deadly score, but that doesn't strike me as an unreasonable choice for a society to make.

You want the precise legal language it is "force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm". s. 25(4) Criminal Code.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:49:37 PM
Quote from: chipwich on October 27, 2020, 04:47:20 PM
Do Swedes know what arteries are?

If this is about leg shots sometimes being lethal then I already mentioned that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:24:58 PM
Dude, it says right there "significant threat of death or serious bodily harm"  not just to posing a danger to the public, which is what I said would be a surprising result.  If the test was that low the police could shoot pretty much anyone fleeing.
Dude, I mentioned this in the context of the story about a Lakewood shooting of four cops, and a likely attempted ambush of another cop that ultimately killed the suspect.  I thought it was clear enough from the context what I meant by "danger to the public" that I did not have to tediously elaborate, and I still think that it was.

Its like you forgot what you claimed to be the rule.

Goodbye.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:55:41 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 27, 2020, 04:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2020, 04:24:58 PM
Dude, it says right there "significant threat of death or serious bodily harm"  not just to posing a danger to the public, which is what I said would be a surprising result.  If the test was that low the police could shoot pretty much anyone fleeing.
Dude, I mentioned this in the context of the story about a Lakewood shooting of four cops, and a likely attempted ambush of another cop that ultimately killed the suspect.  I thought it was clear enough from the context what I meant by "danger to the public" that I did not have to tediously elaborate, and I still think that it was.

Its like you forgot what you claimed to be the rule.

Goodbye.
Huh? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2020, 04:59:53 PM
I was curious so I checked the Wiki list of the number of people killed by law enforcement in different countries per capita. Sweden typically has 1 person killed per year and 10 million people. There is certainly room for improvement, but at least it's a lot lower than the countries of North America. Many factors come into play in these numbers, different police techniques is just one of them. My guess is that there are things to be learnt/taught in many directions for different aspects of this problem, certainly not just from "lower to higher". Seems to me though that keeping an open mind about the countries that are low on the list makes sense, even if certain techniques go against the observer's own traditions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 27, 2020, 08:14:08 PM
Yeah how many Swedes are open carrying AR-15s and are part of a local militia?

My elderly uncle in Colorado is currently stocking up on ammunition and weapons sure that the Trumpreich Proud Boys Einsatzgruppen are about to launch a violent uprising once Joe Biden wins.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 27, 2020, 09:21:44 PM
Which side will he join?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2020, 09:58:15 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 27, 2020, 09:21:44 PM
Which side will he join?

Exactly what I was wondering...  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on October 27, 2020, 10:47:11 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 27, 2020, 09:21:44 PM
Which side will he join?

He is a leftwing guy...which is why I found it weird even he was stockpiling for the big militia war.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:47:35 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.

Guy with a knife is significantly more likely to also be carrying a gun in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 11:55:37 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:47:35 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.

Guy with a knife is significantly more likely to also be carrying a gun in the US.

If we assume this to be true, why would the proper response to a guy advancing towards you brandishing i knife therefore be to kill him? Because he might A) have a gun, and, if he does have one, he might B) try to draw it? Sounds like death by ifs to me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 28, 2020, 12:06:04 PM
WTF, why did we get off on this tangent of knife-wielding people in America being more deserving of being shot because they might carry a gun?

The fair counterpoint to what Brain brought up originally, about Swedish police shooting less people, is that there may be less people wielding a knife in Sweden in the first place, so it doesn't matter whether you recklessly shoot them in the legs or responsibly put them down with 20 shots to the chest.  As Milton Friedman would've surely put it, in America we don't shoot Scandinavians either.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on October 28, 2020, 12:40:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:47:35 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.

Guy with a knife is significantly more likely to also be carrying a gun in the US.

That cannot be the reason for shooting someone.  Get back to the number of times police in Sweden will be confronted with a person wielding a knife.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on October 28, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 28, 2020, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
:lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 01:00:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 28, 2020, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
:lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.

Are you sure they're trained to empty their guns if they shoot?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Keep firing until the threat has been neutralized, but to keep pumping bullets into a person lying on the ground seems fairly extreme.  Plus then you're out of ammo if a new threat arises.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on October 28, 2020, 01:16:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 01:00:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 28, 2020, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
:lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.

Are you sure they're trained to empty their guns if they shoot?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Keep firing until the threat has been neutralized, but to keep pumping bullets into a person lying on the ground seems fairly extreme.  Plus then you're out of ammo if a new threat arises.

A lot of those extra bullets are actually pumped into innocent bystanders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 28, 2020, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 01:00:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 28, 2020, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 28, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
:lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.

Are you sure they're trained to empty their guns if they shoot?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Keep firing until the threat has been neutralized, but to keep pumping bullets into a person lying on the ground seems fairly extreme.  Plus then you're out of ammo if a new threat arises.

The cops who shot Walter Wallace fired at least 14 times (pulling the trigger as fast as they could) from a range of about seven feet.  The three cops firing into Breonna Taylor's apartment building fired 32 shots. Maybe they aren't trained to do that, and it's all just coincidental, but the pattern is suspicious.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on October 28, 2020, 02:53:02 PM
I am under the impression that bullet spam is due to biases in self-defense laws- If you don't absolutely slaughter the person you are shooting at it can be taken as evidence that you weren't really mortally threatened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on October 30, 2020, 12:48:47 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/30/philadelphia-fop-posts-toddler/

Quote
Police took a Black toddler from his family's SUV. Then, the union used his photo as 'propaganda,' attorneys say.


On Thursday, the nation's largest police union posted a photo to social media taken during the unrest in Philadelphia this week, where hundreds of protesters clashed with officers over the police killing of Walter Wallace Jr. The Fraternal Order of Police's posts showed a Philadelphia police officer holding a Black toddler clinging to her neck.

"This child was lost during the violent riots in Philadelphia, wandering around barefoot in an area that was experiencing complete lawlessness," the union claimed in a tweet and Facebook post that have since been deleted. "The only thing this Philadelphia police officer cared about in that moment was protecting this child."

But lawyers for the boy's family say that story was a total fabrication.

In fact, they say police yanked the boy from the back seat of an SUV after busting all of the windows and violently arresting and injuring his mother, who was later released without charges.

"It's propaganda," attorney Riley H. Ross III told The Washington Post. "Using this kid in a way to say, 'This kid was in danger and the police were only there to save him,' when the police actually caused the danger. That little boy is terrified because of what the police did."

Ross and colleague Kevin Mincey are representing the boy's mother in a civil rights case stemming from the violent clash with police on the first night of protests in Philadelphia, which has had four straight nights of unrest after officers the fatal police shooting of Wallace, 27, who was armed with a knife and whose family said he was mentally ill.

Not long after midnight on Tuesday, Rickia Young, a 28-year-old home health aide, borrowed her sister's car, put her 2-year-old son in the back seat and drove across town to West Philadelphia to pick up her teenage nephew from a friend's house, Mincey said.

She was driving back to their home, hoping the purring car engine would lull her young son to sleep, when she turned onto Chestnut Street, where police and protesters had collided. She found herself unexpectedly driving toward a line of police officers who told her to turn around, Mincey said. The young mother tried to make a three-point turn when a swarm of Philadelphia officers surrounded the SUV, shattered its windows and pulled Young and her 16-year-old nephew from the car, the video shows.

A now-viral video of the confrontation shows officers throw Young and the teenager to the ground and then grab the toddler from the back seat. The scene was captured by Aapril Rice, who watched it unfold from her rooftop and told the Philadelphia Inquirer that watching a police officer take the baby was "surreal" and "traumatic."

Mincey said police temporarily detained Young, who had to be taken to the hospital for medical treatment before she could be processed at the police station because her head was bleeding and most of her left side had been badly bruised when police threw her to the ground. She and her son were separated for hours, he said.

"Her face was bloodied and she looked like she had been beaten by a bunch of people on the street," he told The Post. "She is still in pain."

Her nephew also suffered injuries in the confrontation, Mincey said, and Young's son was hit in the head leaving a large bump on the toddler's forehead.

Mincey said Young phoned her mother while in police custody and asked her to find the boy. The toddler's grandmother managed to find him after several hours, the lawyer said, sitting in his car seat in the back of a police cruiser with two officers in the front seats. Glass from the SUV's broken windows still lay in the child's car seat, he said.

The Inquirer first reported about the Fraternal Order of Police's social media posts on Thursday. The photos of the boy in the arms of a police officer came amid a torrent of posts from the union decrying the protests in Philadelphia and urging people to vote for President Trump to promote "law and order."

"We are not your enemy," the union said in the posts showing Young's son. "We are the Thin Blue Line. And WE ARE the only thing standing between Order and Anarchy."

After the Inquirer asked the union about the posts, it removed the photos and the claim that an officer had found the toddler wandering barefoot in the protests. The FOP did not return The Post's request for comment on the posts.

The Philadelphia Police Department did not immediately return The Post's request for comment on the incident involving Young and her family Thursday night, but the department told the Inquirer that its internal affairs unit had opened an investigation.

The sun had risen Tuesday morning before Young was finally reunited with her 2-year-old son. Police held Young for several hours, but eventually released her without charges, her lawyers said. The boy's family then took him to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, where doctors treated him for the head injury and then released him.

The family's lawyers said police have not yet told Young where to find the damaged SUV or the family's belongings that were inside it, including her son's hearing aids.

"She wasn't out looting or out doing anything," Mincey said. "She wasn't even charged with a crime."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 30, 2020, 01:53:17 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/breonna-taylor-boyfriend-kenneth-walker-sued-by-louisville-police-sgt-jonathan-mattingly-for-emotional-distress-2020-10-29/

QuoteLouisville police officer sues Kenneth Walker, boyfriend of Breonna Taylor, for emotional distress, assault and battery

An officer involved in the fatal shooting of Breonna Taylor has filed a civil suit against the 26-year-old's boyfriend for emotional distress, assault and battery on the night she was killed. The lawsuit claims Louisville Sergeant Jonathan Mattingly experienced "severe trauma, mental anguish, and emotional distress" because of Kenneth Walker's actions on March 13.

Mattingly and two other officers entered Taylor's apartment early in the morning that day with a warrant in an attempt to carry out a drug investigation. Walker, a licensed gun owner who said he thought the officers were intruders, allegedly fired a shot that hit Mattingly in the leg. Police opened fire, killing Taylor. Taylor had no criminal record and no drugs were found.

"Walker's conduct in shooting Mattingly is outrageous, intolerable, and offends all accepted standards of decency and morality," the lawsuit said, citing one of the legal standards for intentional emotional distress.

Walker was initially arrested and charged with attempted murder over the shooting, but those charges were later dropped. Walker subsequently sued the Louisville Metropolitan Police Department and also sought immunity based on the state's "Stand Your Ground" law. 

Walker's attorney called Mattingly's lawsuit a "baseless attempt to further victimize and harass Kenny."

"Kenny Walker is protected by law under KRS 503.085 and is immune from both criminal prosecution and civil liability as he was acting in self defense in his own home," attorney Steve Romines said in a statement obtained by CBS News.

"Even the most basic understanding of Kentucky's 'Stand Your Ground' law and the 'Castle Doctrine' evidences this fact. One would think that breaking into the apartment, executing his girlfriend and framing him for a crime in an effort to cover up her murder would be enough for them," he added. "Yet this baseless attempt to further victimize and harass Kenny indicates otherwise."

In a statement obtained by CBS News, Mattingly's attorney Kent Wicker voiced his support for his client. "Mattingly was shot and nearly killed by Kenneth Walker. He's entitled to, and should, use the legal process to seek a remedy for the injury that Walker has caused him," Wicker said.

Taylor's death sparked widespread protests and demands that the officers involved face accountability.

Dozens showed up in pouring rain and bitter cold Thursday night for a "Say her name" march, reports CBS Louisville affiliate WLKY-TV. "Until we get some justice, there will be no celebration. There's no time for leisure, there's no time for recreation," said Aaron Jordan, one of the organizers.

A grand jury indicted one officer in relation to shooting a neighboring apartment, but no officers were charged directly for their role in Taylor's death. Recently, two grand jurors have come forward to accuse Attorney General Daniel Cameron of misrepresenting their position on potential indictments and not presenting them with the full range of potential charges. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on October 30, 2020, 01:54:24 PM
Seems reasonable. Blue Lives Matter you patriots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 31, 2020, 12:03:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.
guy with a knife in the US is possibly more likely to attack a policemen and try to escape, to avoid jail for 40 years after his 3rd offense, unlike Sweden where he would be freed on parole after 3 years. ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on October 31, 2020, 12:09:28 AM
is that the same genius who said Taylor would still be alive if they had executed their no-knock mandate? :roll:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on November 21, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
https://www.ktvu.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-released-on-2m-bond-sheriffs-official-says

Posting this here, as it happened during the anti-police violence protests.

QuoteKyle Rittenhouse released from jail on $2M bond

KENOSHA, Wis. - A 17-year-old from Illinois who is charged with killing two people during a protest in Wisconsin and whose case has become a rallying cry for some conservatives posted $2 million bail Friday and was released from custody.

Kyle Rittenhouse is accused of fatally shooting Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber and wounding Gaige Grosskreutz during a demonstration Aug. 25 that followed the police shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha. He posted bond through his attorney at about 2 p.m., Kenosha County Sheriff's Sgt. David Wright said.

Rittenhouse, of Antioch, Illinois, told police he was attacked while he was guarding a business and that he fired in self-defense.

He faces multiple charges, including intentional homicide, reckless endangerment and being a minor in possession of a firearm. Wisconsin law doesn't permit minors to carry or possess a gun unless they're hunting. He is due back in court on Dec. 3 for a preliminary hearing.

His case has taken on political overtones. Supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement have painted Rittenhouse as a trigger-happy white supremacist. Conservatives upset over property destruction during recent protests have portrayed him as a patriot exercising his right to bear arms during unrest. A legal defense fund for him has attracted millions of dollars in donations, and his mother got a standing ovation from women at a Waukesha County GOP function in September.

Huber's father, John Huber, asked Kenosha County Circuit Court Commissioner Loren Keating during a hearing Nov. 2 to set Rittenhouse's bail between $4 million and $10 million. Huber said Rittenhouse thinks he's above the law and noted the effort to raise money on his behalf. He also suggested militia groups would hide him from police if he were released.

Rittenhouse's attorney, Mark Richards, asked for $750,000 bail.

Keating ultimately set bail at $2 million, saying Rittenhouse was a flight risk given the seriousness of the charges against him.

Conditions of release include that Rittenhouse not possess any weapons, among other items.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 24, 2020, 11:05:54 AM
Just another traffic stop in TX (bodycam footage at the link):

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article248020770.html

QuoteKeller police arrest, pepper spray man when he films son's arrest over traffic violation

A man was pepper sprayed in the face, arrested and denied medical attention after he filmed a Keller police officer arrest his son over a traffic violation in August.

On Aug. 15, two officers with the Keller police department pepper sprayed Marco Puente directly in the eyes while they pinned him to the ground and handcuffed him. The entire incident was video recorded on multiple dash cam and body worn cameras. The Keller police chief apologized for his officers' behavior two days later and said they were in the wrong, according to a federal lawsuit Puente and his attorneys filed against the officers in Fort Worth District Court on Dec. 15.

"I could ask 'why?' to basically every choice they made," attorney James Roberts said about what the suit calls the officers' "excessive force" against Puente.

Marco Puente, an emergency electrician from Keller, sat in the back of a police car for nearly 20 minutes begging for someone to wipe the pepper spray from his eyes.

"It was a terrible feeling," Puente said. "It was claustrophobic, I couldn't breathe. I was hot, burning. In the police video you can hear me yelling for help, and saying, 'Give me something to alleviate this.'"

Keller police cannot comment on pending litigation, but the police department confirmed that one officer involved was demoted from sergeant to officer because of his arrest of Puente.

On Aug. 15, Marco Puente and his son, Dillon Puente, were driving to Marco Puente's wife's grandfather's house to fix Dillon Puente's air conditioning in his car. As Dillon Puente approached the home in the Riverdance neighborhood, Sgt. Blake Shimanek pulled him over on a street inside the subdivision for making a wide right turn.

Dash cam and body cam footage provided to the Star-Telegram show how the traffic violation escalated to Marco Puente's arrest.

In the video, Shimanek walks up to Dillon Puente's window, which is about three-fourths of the way rolled up, and tells him to roll it the rest of the way down. He asks Dillon Puente to step out and put his hands on the car, which he does. He starts handcuffing the 22-year-old, and asks him, "Why are you asking so suspicious?"

Marco Puente pulls up in the truck across the street and yells to his son, asking what happened. Dillon Puente yells back that he rolled up his window and Shimanek got mad. Marco Puente starts recording the arrest on his cell phone.

"You're about to be arrested for blocking the roadway if you don't park and get out," Shimanek yells to Marco Puente, who is parked by the curb on the opposite side of the street. "You're interfering with my job."

Marco Puente, at Shimanek's demand, backs up the truck and parks in front of his wife's grandfather's house. He gets out of the truck and walks up the sidewalk, still recording. Shimanek tells Dillon Puente it was suspicious of him to drive with his window down on a hot day and then roll it up once he got pulled over.

Another officer, identified in the lawsuit as Officer Antik Tomer, pulls up at the scene. Shimanek points at Marco Puente and says, "Watch him."

"Watch me what, stand here?" Puente says.

"Better yet," Shimanek says, "arrest him."

"For what?" Puente says from the sidewalk.

"For blocking the roadway," Shimanek says.

Tomer walks over to Puente, grabs his arm and starts to put handcuffs on him. He tells him to drop his phone, which is still recording. Puente asks what he is being arrested for and continues holding his phone.

Shimanek walks across street and puts Puente in a headlock and knocks his phone from his hand. He and Tomer push Puente to the ground and Shimanek sits on his back and cuffs him. Tomer pulls out a can of pepper spray and holds it inches from Puente's face as Puente yells that he isn't doing anything.

"Dude, oh my god, what are you doing?" he says. "What the heck?"

Shimanek tells Tomer to spray Puente, and Tomer starts spraying him in the face. He takes Puente's sunglasses off and sprays him again in the eyes.

In the video, Puente's wife's grandfather is heard yelling at the officers. He had come out of the house and was also recording officers, and he yells at them and refuses to back up when Shimanek tells him to.

The officers pull Puente, who is yelling that his "eyes are on fire," to his feet and put him in the back of a police car.

Puente asks for a towel, which Shimanek tells him they will give him soon. Over the next 15 minutes, Puente begs repeatedly for someone to give him a towel or help him wipe his face, but he is ignored.

"This officer literally took nothing and made it into something," Scott Palmer, another of Puente's attorneys, said about Shimanek's actions. "He literally created havoc."

Puente and his attorneys say he never should have been arrested or pepper sprayed in the first place, but the indifference officers showed to his continued suffering was even more egregious. Shimanek, who is seen on video complaining about the pepper spray burning his arms, wipes at his own skin with a towel, but tells Tomer not to give one to Puente.

Puente, who is Hispanic, was told over and over again as he sat in the police car that he would receive help from paramedics at the jail. But as Tomer drove Puente to the jail, they passed those paramedics — the officers had told EMS to go to the scene, even though Puente had already been driven away.

Once Tomer and Puente reached the jail, Puente was left in the back of the car for another seven minutes.

"You can hear him as they're sitting in the sally port of the police station casually talking," Roberts said. "He's yelling for seven minutes. You see Shimanek complaining of the pepper spray burning him, and he only had it on his on his arms. Puente had it in his eyes."

Fifteen minutes after being pepper sprayed, Puente received the help he had been begging for when jail attendants — not paramedics — sat him down in a chair and sprayed water in his eyes. Afterward, officers fingerprinted Puente, gave him orange-and-white striped clothes and booked him into jail. Through a sliver in the wall, Puente saw his son being walked into the station as well. From 3 p.m. to 9 p.m., Puente sat in a cell and wondered what had just happened.

"I'm thinking about what the heck went wrong," Puente said. "I keep going back to that I did nothing illegal. Is it because this officer didn't like what I was doing? Is it because he has more power than me?"

Puente also thought about how his wife's grandfather, who is white, yelled at the police and did not move when Shimanek told him to, but he was not arrested.

"So is that the reason they didn't pursue him?" Puente said. "Did they get me because I'm a brown guy in a nice neighborhood? It kind of seems that way."

According to body cam footage, Shimanek told his supervisor that he pulled Dillon Puente over because he suspected him of having narcotics, and he arrested him so he could search his car. No drugs were found in the car. Dillon Puente paid the traffic ticket for making a wide right hand turn and was released from jail shortly after his arrest. Puente wasn't charged with anything.

Police Chief Brad Fortune met with Puente and his family the Monday after his arrest and apologized for what happened. According to the lawsuit, he said his officers were in the wrong.

"Did it make me feel better? Yeah," Puente said. "Does it fix it? No."

For his role in Puente's arrest, Shimanek was demoted from sergeant to officer. Tomer was not disciplined because he was following orders from a supervising officer. The internal affairs investigation found the Shimanek showed conduct unbecoming of an officer, and that Puente did not block the roadway or interfere with Shimanek's duties, as Shimanek claimed.

Fortune also showed the footage of Puente's arrest to the Chief's Advisory Council, which reviews all reports of police complaints and uses of force, and advises the police chief on matters of policy and training.

Puente and his attorneys hope the lawsuit helps hold Shimanek and Tomer responsible for their actions.

Every day when he looks in the mirror, Puente sees a scar that reminds him of the day of his arrest — when Tomer pulled Puente's sunglasses from his face to pepper spray him, he ripped Puente's nostril.

"So I've got this scar on my nose that I see every day," Puente said. "It's in the middle of my face. That takes me back, like why is that thing even there. There's no reason for this to be there."

His 22-year-old son feels like he's "always looking over his shoulder," wondering if he is going to be arrested for "making a wide right turn" again, Puente said.

Records provided by the Keller police department show Shimanek was disciplined once in 2016 and reprimanded in 2018.

In 2016, an internal investigation found he searched a woman's home without permission and threatened to call Child Protective Services without just cause. In 2018, he was the subject of a complaint after he spoke to teachers and made a comment about "women not carrying guns because they would not be able to protect the children during a school shooting."

In 2019, Tomer was reprimanded when he responded to a "swatting" call and told the caller that he did not want to "respond to this kind of (expletive) again," according to a written reprimand. He also told the caller that if "somebody calls in again, we won't respond to this type of call."

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 24, 2020, 11:30:01 AM
That's a straight up criminal assault, Class A misdemeanor.  Apology won't cut it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2020, 12:19:52 PM
Are there any enhancements for committing crimes while wearing a police uniform?  It's bad enough if some random asshole tortures me by putting mace in my eyes, but at least there is a (theoretical) possibility that I can kick his ass to protect myself.  If that asshole is a cop, then that option is only available to me if it hurts so badly I just want to be put out of my misery.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on December 24, 2020, 12:21:50 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 24, 2020, 11:30:01 AM
That's a straight up criminal assault, Class A misdemeanor.  Apology won't cut it.

Everyone deserves a 13th chance to fabricate charges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 31, 2020, 11:20:54 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBTPdCtjBxY

Body cam footage of Minneapolis police shooting and killing . 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on February 12, 2021, 11:12:21 AM
Remember the video of the old man being shoved, hitting his head and bleeding?

https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/charges-dismissed-against-buffalo-cops-who-shoved-elderly-protester/

QuoteCharges dismissed against Buffalo cops who shoved elderly protester

A grand jury in Western New York has dismissed assault charges against two police officers who shoved an elderly protester to the ground during a George Floyd protest in June.

Buffalo Police Department officers Robert McCabe and Aaron Torgalski had faced felony charges for shoving 75-year-old Martin Gugino to the ground, fracturing his skull and causing him to bleed from his head.

Those charges were dismissed by a grand jury panel, which voted to not charge the cops, Erie County District Attorney John Flynn said at a press conference Thursday.

Flynn defended bringing felony charges against the officers at the press conference Thursday, saying video footage of the shove clearly showed the officers had committed a crime.

"I apologize for nothing," Flynn said.

He added Gugino "should not have been shoved," but said he agreed the activist should have been arrested because he was breaking a curfew that the city was under at the time.

Gugino spent a month in a hospital recovering from a fractured skull and brain injury after cracking his head on the ground during the altercation with the police officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 12, 2021, 11:16:43 AM
Should have gone after the ham sandwich instead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 12, 2021, 11:27:53 AM
The cops have to keep those dangerous septuagenarians off the streets. You know the neighborhood is lost once the olds move in and start whacking people with their canes. This thin blue line is all that stands between us and this anarchy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on February 12, 2021, 11:32:31 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 12, 2021, 11:16:43 AM
Should have gone after the ham sandwich instead.
Why do these grand jury proceedings fail so often against cops?  Is it because prosecutors deliberately tank their case, or is it because they're pressured to bring these cases to the grand juries that they normally wouldn't, because they know it wouldn't go through?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on February 12, 2021, 11:35:08 AM
How does the grand jury system work in ny? are they decided by professionals, or the public?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 12, 2021, 11:35:45 AM
Having been on a Grand Jury the standard you are supposed to judge to evidence is so loose you really have to have nothing before we would have dismissed it. I wonder what that presentation looked like to get a Grand Jury to dismiss. I mean you don't even need it to be unanimous or anything for a good bill.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 12, 2021, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: HVC on February 12, 2021, 11:35:08 AM
How does the grand jury system work in ny? are they decided by professionals, or the public?

They are just average people. It is kind of strange because you are not even ruling if you think the suspect did it or not, just if there is enough evidence just to have a trial. The standard of assault must be really hard to meet in NY or something if the evidence and testimony that hands were put on somebody that put them in the hospital is not sufficient to even have a trial.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on February 12, 2021, 11:36:36 AM
Quote from: DGuller on February 12, 2021, 11:32:31 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 12, 2021, 11:16:43 AM
Should have gone after the ham sandwich instead.
Why do these grand jury proceedings fail so often against cops?  Is it because prosecutors deliberately tank their case, or is it because they're pressured to bring these cases to the grand juries that they normally wouldn't, because they know it wouldn't go through?

So I don't know about grand juries, and I've never prosecuted a cop.  But I have been asked to prepare opinions on whether or not to prosecute a cop.  I just completed one recently.  Because of the age of the matter we would have had to proceed by indictment - which would leave it open for the cop to select trial by jury.

In speaking with a couple of other prosecutors they mentioned how difficult it is to get a jury to convict a police officer.  People like police officers, and will give them every possible benefit of the doubt.



Fun fact - the only time I recommended charges against an officer the police then refused to actually charge the guy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 12, 2021, 11:37:55 AM
Quote from: HVC on February 12, 2021, 11:35:08 AM
How does the grand jury system work in ny? are they decided by professionals, or the public?

Regular jury pool, same people as petit jury.

FYI, the "grand" refers to their size.  16 instead of 12 IIRC.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 12, 2021, 11:39:53 AM
Yeah and when I did it we were not even in a court room. We would just be around a conference table and the prosecutor would come in and give his presentation and then we would be left alone to talk about it and then talk to the judge.

It was kind of weirdly informal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on March 01, 2021, 06:43:51 AM
John Oliver on Police raids: https://youtu.be/WYdi1bL6s10

Biggest surprise was that police department aren't liable for any damages if they burst into the wrong home, apparently? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 01, 2021, 12:16:03 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 12, 2021, 11:32:31 AM
Why do these grand jury proceedings fail so often against cops?  Is it because prosecutors deliberately tank their case, or is it because they're pressured to bring these cases to the grand juries that they normally wouldn't, because they know it wouldn't go through?

I honestly don't know; grand jury practice is a mystery to me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 10, 2021, 01:06:49 AM
Just another stop for a traffic violation, this time a 2LT in uniform:

https://youtu.be/ktiozJt7WJQ

"I'm honestly afraid to get out of the car." 
"Yeah, you should be."

https://www.suffolknewsherald.com/2021/04/09/lawsuit-alleges-windsor-police-misconduct/

QuoteLawsuit alleges Windsor police misconduct

A lawsuit filed April 2 in Norfolk's federal court claims two Windsor police officers assaulted and threatened a person of color during a traffic stop.

According to the suit, 2nd Lt. Caron Nazario, an Army Medical Corps officer of Latinx and African American descent, was in uniform driving his new Chevrolet Tahoe SUV west on U.S. Route 460 through town last December. He was near the town's Food Lion when he saw a Windsor Police Department cruiser — driven by Officer Daniel Crocker — signal him to pull over.

The lawsuit contends Nazario signaled his compliance by activating his turn signal and continued driving below the posted 35 mph speed limit looking for a safe, well-lit place to stop. He found one less than a mile ahead: a BP gas station on the opposite side of the highway.

Per the incident report Crocker filed after the fact, which is included as an exhibit in the lawsuit, the stop had been in regards to a missing license plate and "dark tinted windows." He characterizes Nazario's actions as "eluding police" and deems it a "high risk" traffic stop, while acknowledging Nazario's "low rate of speed" in the same report.

The suit, however, claims the vehicle had temporary cardboard license plates taped to the inside of the rear window of the vehicle "at the top and on the passenger side, visible from behind."

Another officer, Joe Gutierrez, heard Crocker's report to dispatchers and arrived at the BP shortly after Crocker did. The officers' body camera footage shows both exiting their patrol cars with guns drawn.

A tense exchange follows, with the officers demanding that Nazario exit his vehicle. In a video of the incident Nazario recorded on his cell phone, he repeatedly asks the officers "What's going on?" and receives responses of "Get out of the car now!"

That is, until one of them — identified in the lawsuit as Gutierrez — replies, "What's going on? You're fixin' to ride the lightning, son."

"This is a colloquial expression for an execution, originating from glib reference to execution by the electric chair," the lawsuit states.

When Nazario says he's "honestly afraid" to exit the vehicle, Gutierrez's body cam records the officer replying, "Yeah, you should be."

The exchange continues until Gutierrez, as shown on his body cam, tells Nazario "you're under arrest ... you're being detained for obstruction of justice." The officers then spray him with oleoresin capsicum, commonly known as pepper spray.

According to the department's incident reports, when Crocker attempted to unlock and open the driver's door, the driver hit the officer's hand away, and still refused to exit the vehicle, at which time he was OC sprayed. The driver then reportedly stepped out of the vehicle, but refused to comply and lay on the ground, and a "short struggle" with the officers ensued.

"In an attempt to get the driver on the ground, the driver was actively resisting, Officer Gutierrez delivered knee strikes to try to gain compliance," Crocker writes. "The driver went down on one knee, however would not lay flat."

The suit, however, claims Nazario had his hands up and out of the vehicle the entire time and "at no time does Lt. Nazario touch or smack either Gutierrez or Crocker during this interaction."

With Nazario in handcuffs, blinded by the OC spray and in custody, an emergency medical technician asked if Nazario had any firearms in the vehicle, to which he replied he did. Upon locating the weapon, Crocker ran Nazario's identification through his patrol car's computer system, which confirmed Nazario's driver's license and concealed carry permit were both valid. He then checked the gun's serial number to see if it was stolen. It wasn't.

"Gutierrez watched this unfold and failed to stop Crocker or intervene in this unlawful search, despite having reasonable opportunity to do so," the suit states.

As Nazario's vision begins to return, Gutierrez is heard on Crocker's body cam acknowledging Nazario's reasons for continuing to drive to the well-lit BP.

"I get it," he says. "The media spewing race relations between law enforcement and minorities, I get it," adding that it "happens all the time" and that "80% of the time, it is a minority."

The incident concludes with Gutierrez saying to Nazario, "If you want to fight and argue ... you have that right as a citizen, if that's what you want, we'll charge you ... If you want to just chill, let this go, and no charges filed, we'll take the handcuffs off, we'll get you a bottle of water ... and sit here until you feel comfortable driving."

According to Crocker's report, Nazario was told he could be charged with improper display of license plates, obstruction of justice with force, misdemeanor elude and assault on a law enforcement officer or avoid charges due to his being active-duty military.

"I did not want to see Nazario's career be ruined by poor judgement (sic)," Crocker writes. "Nazario chose not be charged."

The suit describes the body cam and cell phone footage as "behavior consistent with a disgusting nationwide trend of law enforcement officers, who believing they can operate with complete impunity, engage in unprofessional, discourteous, racially biased, dangerous and sometimes deadly abuses of authority."

It further characterizes Crocker's and Gutierrez's after-the-fact incident reports as containing "near identical material misstatements of fact" that "ignores and intentionally omits material facts of the Defendant's escalation, use of firearms, and the threats of murder within a minute of pulling Lt. Nazario over."

The suit asks for $1 million in damages. Nazario's lawyer, Jonathan M. Arthur of Thomas H. Roberts & Associates P.C., said no court date has been set yet.

The town's website lists biographies for seven officers, including the chief, on Windsor's Police Department, but officers Crocker and Gutierrez aren't named.

Police Chief R.D. "Dan" Riddle, whom Gutierrez identifies in his body cam audio as having been on-scene at one point in an off-duty capacity, declined to comment on the "pending litigation." Nor did he comment on the employment status of the two involved officers, when asked.

Windsor has scheduled a closed session for its April 13 Town Council meeting to discuss "Consultation with Legal Counsel," according to the meeting's agenda.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2021, 04:46:59 AM
I saw that video. Disgraceful.

https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1380703485289754630
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 10, 2021, 04:59:47 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2021, 04:46:59 AM
I saw that video. Disgraceful.

https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1380703485289754630

Yes, I posted a longer version (YouTube) in my post. ;)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2021, 06:38:24 AM
This qualified immunity case is disgusting

https://mobile.twitter.com/radleybalko/status/1380537520245633033
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on April 11, 2021, 06:38:22 PM
Saw the Windsor PD video, against my better judgement. "Get ready to ride the lightning" . It's so bizarre that a cop is having some sort of adolescent wank fantasy and delivering action movie one liners. wtf? Who are these people? Where do they find them? What is police training . half an hour video of some way of the warrior bs?

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 11, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
God that sounds like something Nick Frost would say in Hot Fuzz :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 11, 2021, 06:51:55 PM
Quote from: fromtia on April 11, 2021, 06:38:22 PM
Saw the Windsor PD video, against my better judgement. "Get ready to ride the lightning" . It's so bizarre that a cop is having some sort of adolescent wank fantasy and delivering action movie one liners. wtf? Who are these people? Where do they find them? What is police training . half an hour video of some way of the warrior bs?

It's not that bizarre. Action movies have nurtured copious power fantasies associated with guns in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 11, 2021, 07:40:55 PM
"Ride the Lightning" is cop slang for getting tazed.  The cop was apparently warning the 2nd Lt that he was going to taze him if he didn't cooperate, but it DOES sound dumb to anyone that doesn't speak cop slang (including the victim in this case).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on April 12, 2021, 12:01:21 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 11, 2021, 07:40:55 PM
"Ride the Lightning" is cop slang for getting tazed.  The cop was apparently warning the 2nd Lt that he was going to taze him if he didn't cooperate, but it DOES sound dumb to anyone that doesn't speak cop slang (including the victim in this case).

Follow police commands and you won't be harmed. Commands may be conflicting and they may be given in jargon or slang. Good luck citizen!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 12:49:50 AM
Quote from: fromtia on April 12, 2021, 12:01:21 AM
Follow police commands and you won't be harmed. Commands may be conflicting and they may be given in jargon or slang. Good luck citizen!

*Limit one per customer. FORCE reserves right to withdraw offer at any time or impose additional alternative conditions without prior warning. Service availability may vary.  May not be available in contiguous 50 states. Service ma not be available to non-English speakers, wise-ass punks or persons with excessive melanin, to be determined within the sole discretion of FORCE. Must provide copy of PBA card in good standing and records of payment in last 30 days.  Other restrictions may apply.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 01:01:26 AM
"When cops are yelling at you to get out of the car, it's a good idea to get out of the car."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 12, 2021, 01:11:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 01:01:26 AM
"When cops are yelling at you to get out of the car, it's a good idea to get out of the car."

They also shouted at him to keep his hands visible.

All this over a car with tinted windows and paper license plates (which he apparently had because it was a newly bought car).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 01:35:39 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 12, 2021, 01:11:56 AM
They also shouted at him to keep his hands visible.

All this over a car with tinted windows and paper license plates (which he apparently had because it was a newly bought car).

Most of all this was over failure to comply.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 12, 2021, 02:02:28 AM
And thus why I fear cops and try to stay away from them whenever possible.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 12, 2021, 02:05:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 12, 2021, 01:11:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 01:01:26 AM
"When cops are yelling at you to get out of the car, it's a good idea to get out of the car."

They also shouted at him to keep his hands visible.

All this over a car with tinted windows and paper license plates (which he apparently had because it was a newly bought car).

Yeah, complete hysteria. But I suppose the cops fear that any minor incident can lead to a shootout.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 01:35:39 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 12, 2021, 01:11:56 AM
They also shouted at him to keep his hands visible.

All this over a car with tinted windows and paper license plates (which he apparently had because it was a newly bought car).

Most of all this was over failure to comply.

The issue in this case, and the reason this thread is hundreds of pages long, is not failure to comply. Failure to comply is not a licence for the cops to do whatever they want. The issue is cops on a power trip, itching for a chance to hurt somebody, and this weird us-vs-them mentality they have with their own community.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
The issue in this case, and the reason this thread is hundreds of pages long, is not failure to comply. Failure to comply is not a licence for the cops to do whatever they want. The issue is cops on a power trip, itching for a chance to hurt somebody, and this weird us-vs-them mentality they have with their own community.

OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 12, 2021, 06:24:57 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM
OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?

Reassess whether the action you are demanding the suspect carry out is really necessary.  There is no reason to have someone leave their car because of a traffic stop.  I've been stopped several times and never had to leave my car.

The way NOT to respond to failure to comply is to immediately escalate the situation and issue threats that are against policy.

In this case, the cops realized that they had fucked up on camera, and so let the driver go.  They could have started with that mindset and this would all have been avoided.

The police alienating the community for the sake of forcing compliance to bullshit orders only helps the actual criminals.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
The issue in this case, and the reason this thread is hundreds of pages long, is not failure to comply. Failure to comply is not a licence for the cops to do whatever they want. The issue is cops on a power trip, itching for a chance to hurt somebody, and this weird us-vs-them mentality they have with their own community.

OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?

Unholster and keep shooting until every bullet is expended.  Then call HQ and request a nuclear strike from orbit.  The guy didn't comply right?  Can't take any chances.

Alternatively,
Apply a basic concept well recognized in the law and indeed in virtually any interaction between human beings: rationally assess context and implement a response that is proportional to and appropriate to the situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
The issue in this case, and the reason this thread is hundreds of pages long, is not failure to comply. Failure to comply is not a licence for the cops to do whatever they want. The issue is cops on a power trip, itching for a chance to hurt somebody, and this weird us-vs-them mentality they have with their own community.

OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?

Unholster and keep shooting until every bullet is expended.  Then call HQ and request a nuclear strike from orbit.  The guy didn't comply right?  Can't take any chances.

Alternatively,
Apply a basic concept well recognized in the law and indeed in virtually any interaction between human beings: rationally assess context and implement a response that is proportional to and appropriate to the situation.
The problem with that approach is that you're setting a precedent that civilians can defy your authority and live to tell about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on April 12, 2021, 09:54:52 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 08:35:56 AM

Unholster and keep shooting until every bullet is expended.  Then call HQ and request a nuclear strike from orbit.  The guy didn't comply right?  Can't take any chances.

Alternatively,
Apply a basic concept well recognized in the law and indeed in virtually any interaction between human beings: rationally assess context and implement a response that is proportional to and appropriate to the situation.
The problem with that approach is that you're setting a precedent that civilians can defy your authority and live to tell about it.

:D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on April 12, 2021, 09:58:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM


OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?

Take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
Apply a basic concept well recognized in the law and indeed in virtually any interaction between human beings: rationally assess context and implement a response that is proportional to and appropriate to the situation.

Please go on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 12, 2021, 02:24:54 PM
I think he means less...

(https://img.posterlounge.co.uk/images/big/358621.jpg)

...and more...

(https://mycapreol.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/0b912322f5eca48d4130d7da0f112c3e.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on April 12, 2021, 02:26:57 PM
i can't not focus on the dogs penile sheath... is that the right term? whatever it is its staring into my soul
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 12, 2021, 02:30:33 PM
Wait, you're not Brain...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 03:18:00 PM
The most important attribute of any law enforcement official from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to the rookie meter maid in Poughkeepsie is good judgment.  An officer needs to be a well trained and proficient in the use of that faculty as they are with their service revolver.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on April 12, 2021, 03:24:17 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 03:18:00 PM
An officer needs to be a well trained and proficient in the use of that faculty as they are with their service revolver.

That's calling for an abysmally low level of training.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 03:38:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM
OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?

1) He did comply. He pulled over.

2) In this case, the right way to respond is to accept that he delayed his compliance for a good reason (wanting to be in a well lit, recorded area), and proceed with carrying out whatever checks they needed to carry out in a non-confrontational manner.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 03:38:57 PM
1) He did comply. He pulled over.

2) In this case, the right way to respond is to accept that he delayed his compliance for a good reason (wanting to be in a well lit, recorded area), and proceed with carrying out whatever checks they needed to carry out in a non-confrontational manner.

He certainly didn't comply with any of the 40 orders to leave his vehicle.

"Accept" is an interesting choice of words, implying that he had communicated his motivations and reasoning to the officers.  Given the actual scenario "assume" or "guess" might be more accurate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 04:22:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 03:38:57 PM
1) He did comply. He pulled over.

2) In this case, the right way to respond is to accept that he delayed his compliance for a good reason (wanting to be in a well lit, recorded area), and proceed with carrying out whatever checks they needed to carry out in a non-confrontational manner.

He certainly didn't comply with any of the 40 orders to leave his vehicle.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/95b31b2f80b37290087756bc0e064f07c847ba32/133_0_1967_1180/master/1967.jpg?width=445&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=2e651626f73f2caf8f0886628f3b2715)

Nazario's hands are outside of the vehicle, clearly visible. He is not a threat. He communicated that he is afraid of getting out of the car, and that he is afraid to take his hands out of view of the officers to unbuckle his seat belt - because, as we all know, sometimes people get shot when their hands disappear from view, even if they're trying to comply with police instructions.

I propose that in such a situation the officers should asses the risk as small and take steps to de-escalate the situation. F. ex. they could open the door to the vehicle calmly. They could holster their guns. They could refrain from using threats of violence, to state that he "should be afraid", and from pointing guns at him. They could acknowledge that they understand his fear in a sympathetic fashion. They could not pepper spray the man. They could speak in calm tones and refrain from repeatedly yelling the same instruction over and over again demanding immediate compliance when Nazario has indicated how afraid he is.

Additionally, Nazario says he was given conflicting instructions:
Quote from: ArticleThe officers shouted conflicting orders, telling him to put his hands out the window while telling him to open the door and get out, the lawsuit says.

How is he to comply with the instruction to leave the vehicle while also complying with the instruction to keep his hands out the window? Perhaps it's safer to err on the side of following the instruction that keep his hands visible so the officers don't think he is "going for a weapon", putting them "in fear for their lives" causingt them to open fire.

Quote from: Admiral Yi"Accept" is an interesting choice of words, implying that he had communicated his motivations and reasoning to the officers.  Given the actual scenario "assume" or "guess" might be more accurate.

It is a pretty well established phenomenon. And in fact Gutierrez himself said it's a common occurence.

Quote from: ArticleAnother officer, Joe Gutierrez, was driving by when he heard Crocker's call, saw him attempting to stop the SUV and decided to join the stop. Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area happens to him "a lot, and 80% of the time, it's a minority", Arthur said, quoting the officer.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/10/caron-nazario-army-police-guns-pepper-spray
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 04:27:09 PM
I always think of the Charles Kinsey shooting when this compliance issue comes up.  The police arrive at a scene with a report of a possible armed suspect.  There is a young white man with a shiny object and an older black man who is shouting.  The SWAT team arrives.  The white man refuses to comply with police instructions.  The black man has his hands in the air but keeps shouting.  A SWAT rifleman fires three shots, ostensibly aiming at the white guy (of course he hits the black guy instead . . .)

It turns out the young white man is severely autistic, and ran off from a residential facility.  The shiny object is a toy truck he is playing with. He does not comply with police orders because he does not comprehend the situation.  The black gentleman is his caregiver.  He is shouting because he is trying to help his charge to comply but does not want to risk being shot by moving over to help.

Context matters.  Police are called upon to deal with every imaginable situation that can arise in human life, usually with sketchy and incomplete information.  In any given circumstance there are many MANY reason why a person may be non-compliant.  There are some circumstances where force may be required, even deadly force in extreme cases.  There are also many circumstances where force is unwarranted or even counterproductive.  The officer needs to have the judgment to tell the difference.  That's the whole job right there.

Having good judgment and gauging the appropriate proportional response may be a challenge, but that's what the job is. Without it, a cop is just a yahoo with a gun and qualified legal immunity to harm fellow citizens. A cop without good judgment and the ability to assess proportional response is completely useless.  It's like a ballplayer that cant hit, field or throw.  What good is he?  "Well he looks good in the home uniform and signs his autograph neatly."  Except the team with the shitty ballplayer just loses a couple games and a roster slot.  The city with the shitty cop loses the lives of some citizens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
Clearly the guy didn't comply with the instructions.  Let's not overegg the pudding by making it sound like he did, when he didn't.  I think it's also clear to me that police should be way more tolerant of people not complying with instructions, for various reasons, and try to deescalate rather than escalate.  For example, one can reasonable be afraid that complying might get them shot, and the more you go down the rabbit hole of non-compliance followed by escalation, the more reasonable that belief becomes.  One may also just freeze up, or even become erratic, and sometimes become way more erratic in reaction to the tone of the police. 

I remember being pulled over by police for speeding, and the instructions barked at me over the PA just scrambled my brain and made me panic, and try to do stupid things such as stopping in the right lane.  I did that because my original plan of going slowly and finding a place to pull over was rejected with an incomprehensible bark, so I figured I needed to do something differently and that was the only thing that occurred to me.  Obviously I couldn't ask to repeat the bark, and I didn't want to look like I was ignoring the bark, so I had to think of something on the spot.  I'm sure I would've behaved in a more rational manner had I not had to react to barking while in an already stressful situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
Clearly the guy didn't comply with the instructions.  Let's not overegg the pudding by making it sound like he did, when he didn't.  I think it's also clear to me that police should be way more tolerant of people not complying with instructions, for various reasons, and try to deescalate rather than escalate.  For example, one can reasonable be afraid that complying might get them shot, and the more you go down the rabbit hole of non-compliance followed by escalation, the more reasonable that belief becomes.  One may also just freeze up, or even become erratic, and sometimes become way more erratic in reaction to the tone of the police. 

I remember being pulled over by police for speeding, and the instructions barked at me over the PA just scrambled my brain and made me panic, and try to do stupid things such as stopping in the right lane.  I did that because my original plan of going slowly and finding a place to pull over was rejected with an incomprehensible bark, so I figured I needed to do something differently and that was the only thing that occurred to me.  Obviously I couldn't ask to repeat the bark, and I didn't want to look like I was ignoring the bark, so I had to think of something on the spot.  I'm sure I would've behaved in a more rational manner had I not had to react to barking while in an already stressful situation.

I agree. 

My own anecdote is being pulled over by the cops in Eastern Washington state in my late teens.  It was the first time I had ever been pulled over and had no idea what to do.  So I got out of my car to talk to the officer.  He pulled out his gun, pointed it at me and said "What the hell do you think you doing.  Get back in your car."  I nearly shit my pants.  And froze.  I literally could not move.  Thankfully this cop realized I was no threat, put his gun away, gave me a warning for whatever I had done that brought me to his attention, and sent me on my way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 04:53:07 PM
You dared not obey the bark immediately while cowering in fear. This is a potentially lethal offence and must be escalated with angrier barks while putting one's hand on one's gun, or drawing the weapon altogether. Hopefully that behavior will completely dissipate misunderstanding and put you at ease.

If routine trafic stops are so dangerous that they warrant being ready to kill at a moment's notice, and so potentially lethal for cops, I wonder why police continue to do them for all sorts of ridiculously minor infractions. But, of course, it's not about trafic stops...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 04:58:55 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 12, 2021, 04:27:09 PM
Context matters.  Police are called upon to deal with every imaginable situation that can arise in human life, usually with sketchy and incomplete information.  In any given circumstance there are many MANY reason why a person may be non-compliant.  There are some circumstances where force may be required, even deadly force in extreme cases.  There are also many circumstances where force is unwarranted or even counterproductive.  The officer needs to have the judgment to tell the difference.  That's the whole job right there.

I agree.  And in assessing the actions of the officers we need to imagine that we do not possess more information than they had at the time.

We know the driver's reason for continuing to drive "less than a mile."  The officers didn't.

We know there were no weapons or drugs in the car.  The officers didn't.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 05:19:14 PM
I've been thinking about what I would do if I were in a Daniel Shaver situation, back when it was in the news.  What do you do when the cop riles himself up so much that pretty that either a zig or a zag is a reason for him to fulfill his fantasy?  The best conclusion I could come up with is to completely freeze and just feign stupor (if it didn't come naturally); sure, I'll be non-compliant, but as far as I'm aware, being frozen can't be interpreted as an imminent threat to life.  At some point they'll probably have to roughly manhandle you, but that probably won't kill you.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on April 12, 2021, 05:20:18 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 04:53:07 PM
If routine trafic stops are so dangerous that they warrant being ready to kill at a moment's notice, and so potentially lethal for cops, I wonder why police continue to do them for all sorts of ridiculously minor infractions. But, of course, it's not about trafic stops...
it's about defying authority.  They don't like it.  At all.
I've been arrested quite a few times since my early teens, even for illegally driving a motor vehicle as I was not old enough to have a driver's license, and the cops are angry when you try to escape or don't stop immediatly and they do put their hand on their gun, even when you're 12-13, on an ATV.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 05:52:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 04:58:55 PM
We know the driver's reason for continuing to drive "less than a mile."  The officers didn't.

So they drove less than a mile. What conclusion should we draw from that?

QuoteWe know there were no weapons or drugs in the car.  The officers didn't.

So there may be drugs in the car. Or a weapon. I am led to believe it's a pretty common occurence in the United States. What, then?

The reason "there may have been a gun" is always invoked to excuse any such behavior - regardless of whether there was indeed a gun or not. So, either trafic stops are super high-risk operations which ought to require SWAT, or perhaps, not worth the risk just to signal to someone that their tinted windows may not correspond to regulation 3245-1; or perhaps this is not about the presence or absence of a gun, but about whether or not cops "feel" safe around black people. Because, otherwise, I fail to see why white people in nice cars who may very well have a gun in the car don't get so regularly gunned down, or why white people openly brandishing assault weapons get the luxury of polite negotiations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:01:16 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 05:52:55 PM
So they drove less than a mile. What conclusion should we draw from that?

We're discussing what conclusion we should draw.  Feel free to contribute

The conclusion I personally would draw is that is not proceeding as a normal traffic stop and my suspicion would be somewhat elevated.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 06:13:03 PM
And then what? What scenario involving someone driving slowly until reaching a well-lit spot screams "lethal encounter" in your mind? What sort of nefarious dealings may have happened in that car during that drive?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:21:37 PM
If I think something screams lethal encounter, I can say that myself.  I know how to spell scream.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 06:38:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:21:37 PM
If I think something screams lethal encounter, I can say that myself.  I know how to spell scream.

You're saying driving for less than a mile to stop in a well lit area would somewhat elevate your suspicion, which is fair enough.

Does that somewhat heightened suspicion explain or justify what followed afterwards in this specific case?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 06:38:42 PM
Does that somewhat heightened suspicion explain or justify what followed afterwards in this specific case?

I think the order to exit the vehicle was perfectly justified.  Could I have lived with the officer's weapons holstered, maybe with hand on weapon?  Possibly.  I wouldn't want to be forced to make that call in real time and then have my actions second-guessed by the world.

The jump the shark moment IMO is when the cops are yelling at the driver to exit the vehicle and he just continues to sit there.

Now I knew how it turned out because I read the article.  But watching the video unfold, I didn't come to the conclusion that the guy was zero risk until after he had been sprayed and the door was open.

I can't in good conscience ask my public servants to act as if there is zero risk when I know there is greater than zero risk.

If you think cops are being unreasonable the proper place to litigate it is in a court or through a complaint process, not in a gas station parking lot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 07:02:28 PM
Thank God there are people who have a better conscience than Yi.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 07:22:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:59:14 PMI can't in good conscience ask my public servants to act as if there is zero risk when I know there is greater than zero risk.

Cops aren't municipal clerks or bureaucrats. There is going to be an element of risk involved. It's the nature of the job. The problems here is that

1) greater than zero risk seems to be very quickly equated with "lethal risk" and
2) the cops' own actions very quickly, and very frequently, escalate needlessly a situation creating, *in their own mind* scenarios of "lethal risk".
3) risk assessment seems terribly biased according to racial prejudice. White supremacist = no risk. Black driver = risk. Pissed off, foul-mouthed white person = little risk. Pissed off, foul-mouthed black person = lethal risk.

Let's assume, for the moment, this gentleman refuses to get out of the car. How do you move, from this situation, to one where such a refusal is informed by some deadly desire on the part of the individual? That, by refusing to get out of the car, he somehow needs to be shot? That's the dozens or so steps that are systematically missing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 07:27:53 PM
Btw once they pull up to the gas station, the reason for the stop disappears, as the plates are clearly visible.

At this point, do the cops say "hey sorry man, didn't see your plates back there."? Of course they don't, they immediately dial it up to 100.

Driving under the speed limit for a mile is not eluding police.

These US cops exhibit real small dick energy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 07:34:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:59:14 PM
I can't in good conscience ask my public servants to act as if there is zero risk when I know there is greater than zero risk.
Of course you can. We ask all sorts of public servants - police, firemen, military, healthcare workers - to go into places where there is risk to do their job whatever that may be and we aks them to do that often instead of taking a zero-risk approach for themselves. The risk is inherent in the role and we ask them to take it constantly.

The trade off for that should be social respect, good benefits and pay. I'm not sure we've lived up to our end of the bargain socially - except for the cheapest and well meant "thank you for your service" "clap for carers" show of respect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 12, 2021, 07:34:54 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 05:52:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 04:58:55 PM
We know the driver's reason for continuing to drive "less than a mile."  The officers didn't.

So they drove less than a mile. What conclusion should we draw from that?

QuoteWe know there were no weapons or drugs in the car.  The officers didn't.

So there may be drugs in the car. Or a weapon. I am led to believe it's a pretty common occurence in the United States. What, then?

The reason "there may have been a gun" is always invoked to excuse any such behavior - regardless of whether there was indeed a gun or not. So, either trafic stops are super high-risk operations which ought to require SWAT, or perhaps, not worth the risk just to signal to someone that their tinted windows may not correspond to regulation 3245-1; or perhaps this is not about the presence or absence of a gun, but about whether or not cops "feel" safe around black people. Because, otherwise, I fail to see why white people in nice cars who may very well have a gun in the car don't get so regularly gunned down, or why white people openly brandishing assault weapons get the luxury of polite negotiations.

He's an army officer. Unsurprisingly there was a loaded gun in the car. If he had gotten shot it would have been "justified" on that reason.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 12, 2021, 07:37:29 PM
In other news

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/us/brooklyn-center-minnesota-police-shooting/index.html

Quote(CNN)A 20-year-old man was fatally shot during a traffic stop after a Minnesota police officer shouted "Taser!" but fired a handgun instead, Brooklyn Center Police Chief Tim Gannon said.

Daunte Wright was driving with his girlfriend Sunday afternoon when he was pulled over in the Minneapolis suburb.

Earlier, police said they tried to take the driver into custody after learning during a traffic stop that he had an outstanding warrant. The man got back into his vehicle, and an officer shot him, police said. They said the man drove several blocks before striking another vehicle.

Bodycam video released by the police chief Monday provided more details about what happened.

Wright got out of his car, but then got back in. It's not clear why, but the police chief told reporters it appeared from the video that Wright was trying to leave.

An officer is then heard shouting, "Taser! Taser! Taser!" but then fires a gun -- not a Taser -- at Wright.
"Holy sh*t!" the officer screams. "I shot him."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
Yeah, I think there has to be a recognition that taking on a risk is part of the job.  If you treat citizens you deal with as citizens rather than civilians, you're probably going to have some cops killed when they wouldn't otherwise be killed.  That's the consequence of living in a country that protects the rights of not just cops, but also citizens.  I'm sure that ordering a drone strike on every car you pull over will likewise result in less cop deaths, but I think even some in the Blue Lives Matter movement would argue that this is an excessive measure to ensure the safety of cops.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 07:39:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 07:34:17 PM
Of course you can. We ask all sorts of public servants - police, firemen, military, healthcare workers - to go into places where there is risk to do their job whatever that may be and we aks them to do that often instead of taking a zero-risk approach for themselves. The risk is inherent in the role and we ask them to take it constantly.

The trade off for that should be social respect, good benefits and pay. I'm not sure we've lived up to our end of the bargain socially - except for the cheapest and well meant "thank you for your service" "clap for carers" show of respect.

Your examples don't fit your thesis. 

We ask firemen to go into burning buildings but we don't demand they act is if there is no risk.  We provide protective gear and oxygen and expect them to use it..  We wouldn't expect a member of the military to walk toward an enemy position unarmed and talk them into surrendering.  We would expect him or her to take measures to safeguard their own security.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 07:41:44 PM
But your fellow citizen is not an enemy combatant :mellow:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 07:42:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 07:39:03 PM
Your examples don't fit your thesis. 

We ask firemen to go into burning buildings but we don't demand they act is if there is no risk.  We provide protective gear and oxygen and expect them to use it..  We wouldn't expect a member of the military to walk toward an enemy position unarmed and talk them into surrendering.  We would expect him or her to take measures to safeguard their own security.

This is exactly what is wrong with American policing.

The citizens are not enemies, and traffic stops or calls for police investigations are not enemy positions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on April 12, 2021, 07:44:19 PM
It seems to me that enough people of color have been shot, beaten, tazed, etc. when following police orders to make the "just follow orders" defense a bit weaker...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 07:45:56 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 07:41:44 PM
But your fellow citizen is not an enemy combatant :mellow:

Until they are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 07:46:14 PM
Quote from: PDH on April 12, 2021, 07:44:19 PM
It seems to me that enough people of color have been shot, beaten, tazed, etc. when following police orders to make the "just follow orders" defense a bit weaker...

A non-trivial number of white folks have been shot, beaten, tazed etc as well. There's both a racism problem and a unjustified violence problem.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 07:47:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 07:45:56 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 07:41:44 PM
But your fellow citizen is not an enemy combatant :mellow:

Until they are.

... so better strike first, just in case?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 07:55:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 07:39:03 PM
Your examples don't fit your thesis. 

We ask firemen to go into burning buildings but we don't demand they act is if there is no risk.  We provide protective gear and oxygen and expect them to use it..  We wouldn't expect a member of the military to walk toward an enemy position unarmed and talk them into surrendering.  We would expect him or her to take measures to safeguard their own security.
No. But we provide them with equipment and with training and ask them to do those roles, at their own personal risk. We can't eliminate that risk and part of the job we're asking them to do acknowledges that they can't and sometimes shouldn't eliminate the person risk to themselves.

So for the military we ask them to achieve whatever the objective is - General Sir Mike Jackson has spoken about his fear that the whole "heroes" language and sentimentality around soldiers will make the military less useful, because society becomes more concerned with the safety of the soldiers than the state and then military objectives they're being asked to deliver. It'd be great if that could always be with zero casualties, but sometimes it can't.

We did have a shortage of PPE and we didn't tell hospitals to stop tending to victims of the pandemic. The priority was for them to do their job caring for the sick, even though there were awful consequences of that failure to have sufficient PPE.

I get that because of guns the risk to police in the US is a lot higher and because they carry guns they always have a possibility to eliminate that risk. But there may be times when that's not the option - as a police force - that they should take. And I agree with Oex's points.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 07:47:04 PM
... so better strike first, just in case?

In some cases, absolutely.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 12, 2021, 08:21:57 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
Yeah, I think there has to be a recognition that taking on a risk is part of the job.  If you treat citizens you deal with as citizens rather than civilians, you're probably going to have some cops killed when they wouldn't otherwise be killed.  That's the consequence of living in a country that protects the rights of not just cops, but also citizens.  I'm sure that ordering a drone strike on every car you pull over will likewise result in less cop deaths, but I think even some in the Blue Lives Matter movement would argue that this is an excessive measure to ensure the safety of cops.


I really hate the police talking about people as "civilians".  Police are not an army, yet they have the mindset of an occupying force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 08:30:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 07:47:04 PM
... so better strike first, just in case?

In some cases, absolutely.

That is completely fucked up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 08:46:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 07:47:04 PM
... so better strike first, just in case?

In some cases, absolutely.
This is one of those statements that can use some expounding.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 12, 2021, 08:50:15 PM
Quote from: PDH on April 12, 2021, 07:44:19 PM
It seems to me that enough people of color have been shot, beaten, tazed, etc. when following police orders to make the "just follow orders" defense a bit weaker...

Anyone who has read the Daniel Shaver story (DG mentioned him earlier) will understand that "just follow orders" can still get you murdered.

We've got way too many of the wrong kinds of cops.  If a cop thinks like Yi, that every citizen is on the verge of becoming an enemy combatant, then we need to get rid of that cop as a danger to society.  Too much chance of more cop murders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 08:46:03 PM
This is one of those statements that can use some expounding.

I can conceive of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.

Can you not?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 12, 2021, 09:11:24 PM
https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-officer-in-daunte-wright-shooting/6073236/

Quote

Potter has worked for the department for nearly 25 years and is president of the Brooklyn Center Police Officer's Association. In that role, she has represented other officers involved in deadly shootings.

According to an investigation by the Hennepin County Attorney's office, Potter was one of the first officers to arrive after police shot and killed Kobe Dimock-Heisler in 2019.

Investigative records show Potter advised the officers during the early stages of the investigation and was present when one officer gave his statement. Those officers were eventually cleared of any wrongdoing.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 12, 2021, 09:15:36 PM
26 year police officer, Union President......no excuse for that mistake.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 09:18:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 08:46:03 PM
This is one of those statements that can use some expounding.

I can conceive of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.

Can you not?

If you conceive of "enemy combatant" as "someone who is shooting at the police" and think it's sometimes okay for the cops to shoot first, because they believe the person is about to shoot, yeah fine.

But we're talking about treating people who are not about to shoot back as "enemy combatants". Someone's hands going out of sight has been used countless times as a reason for shooting them. Some kid lying on the ground holding a toy truck. Some kid in a park holding a toy gun. Some guy at Walmart shopping, holding merchandise. Someone trying to pull up their pants. Someone reaching for their drivers license.

Those people were treated as enemy combatants and shot. They should not have been.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 09:21:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 09:18:53 PM
But we're talking about treating people who are not about to shoot back, and treating them as "enemy combatants".

We weren't before.  We were talking about all people.  All people includes not so nice people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 09:21:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 09:18:53 PM
But we're talking about treating people who are not about to shoot back, and treating them as "enemy combatants".

We weren't before.  We were talking about all people.  All people includes not so nice people.

That's all we're talking about. We are talking about the American police routinely assuming that people they encounter are "not so nice people" and using that as a reason to shoot a whole bunch of people who, it turns out, were no threat to the police at all; and using those same assumptions to harass and hurt people who are posing no threat to them and are in fact perfectly nice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 12, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2021, 08:21:57 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
Yeah, I think there has to be a recognition that taking on a risk is part of the job.  If you treat citizens you deal with as citizens rather than civilians, you're probably going to have some cops killed when they wouldn't otherwise be killed.  That's the consequence of living in a country that protects the rights of not just cops, but also citizens.  I'm sure that ordering a drone strike on every car you pull over will likewise result in less cop deaths, but I think even some in the Blue Lives Matter movement would argue that this is an excessive measure to ensure the safety of cops.


I really hate the police talking about people as "civilians".  Police are not an army, yet they have the mindset of an occupying force.

Civillians have always excluded police.

Here's one definition:

Quote
ci·​vil·​ian | \ sə-ˈvil-yən  also -ˈvi-yən \
Definition of civilian (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b: OUTSIDER sense 1

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian

And another:

Quotecivilian
noun [ C ]
UK  /sɪˈvɪl.jən/ US  /səˈvɪl.jən/

C2
a person who is not a member of the police or the armed forces:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/civilian


In my line of work we always distinguish between police witnesses and civilian witnesses.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 09:31:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 12, 2021, 09:25:14 PM
That's all we're talking about. We are talking about the American police routinely assuming that people they encounter are "not so nice people" and using that as a reason to shoot a whole bunch of people who, it turns out, were no threat to the police at all; and using those same assumptions to harass and hurt people who are posing no threat to them and are in fact perfectly nice.

Then go ahead and talk about that with whoever wants to.  I was talking about appropriate behavior by police when they are uncertain about the threat posed.  Such as in the video you and I have been discussing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 12, 2021, 11:02:34 PM
This has been an interesting discussion.

I think the problem is that it is a discussion about a particular circumstance, where lots of people are making a lot of very generalized statements that are likely not true, and certainly not put into evidence.

I can think this is an example of a fucked up stop by the police, but that doesn't tell us anything at all about any tendencies of police in general. There are probably like a million traffic stops a year in the US. Maybe more.

Before I ever see this video, or anyone else in this thread saw this video, we could safely say "Out of over a million traffic stops per year, even if we presume that the police overall are about as well mannnered and professional as we can reasonable hope, there will be some outlier cases that are totally fucked up because of shitty cops".

So *seeing* the video doesn't actually change anything, IMO. It doesn't provide any new information about policing in general.

I will admit my views on this are somewhat informed by recent nearly personal experience with police and their assessment of risk
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 13, 2021, 01:39:59 AM
Of course, we all know it isn't about just this one incident.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 13, 2021, 01:49:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:02:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
The issue in this case, and the reason this thread is hundreds of pages long, is not failure to comply. Failure to comply is not a licence for the cops to do whatever they want. The issue is cops on a power trip, itching for a chance to hurt somebody, and this weird us-vs-them mentality they have with their own community.

OK, let's discuss THE ISSUE.

What is the right way to respond to a failure to comply?

Seems like to me the issue is that the Bill of Rights guarantees American Citizens are not to be deprived of their lives by agents of the government without due process of law. I don't see the due process here. Maybe you can enlighten me?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 02:04:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 13, 2021, 01:49:33 AM
Seems like to me the issue is that the Bill of Rights guarantees American Citizens are not to be deprived of their lives by agents of the government without due process of law. I don't see the due process here. Maybe you can enlighten me?

You want me to enlighten you about the legal authority for law enforcement to use deadly force?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 13, 2021, 02:57:45 AM
Let's start here: does US policing work as intended or would like to see some reforms Yi?

If yes, then please elaborate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 03:15:02 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 13, 2021, 02:57:45 AM
Let's start here: does US policing work as intended or would like to see some reforms Yi?

If yes, then please elaborate.

I'm happy with the policing where I work.

I think big city cop unions should be demolished.

If other localities want to try the social worker model and show us if it works, I say knock yourself out.

I wouldn't object to use of deadly force being federalized if local DAs seem to not be doing the job.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on April 13, 2021, 03:44:40 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 04:58:55 PM
We know there were no weapons or drugs in the car.  The officers didn't.

So, essentially, what you are saying is the US gun laws are the problem. Police officers have to assume that absolutely anyone may be carrying a gun and have to fear for their lives because of it. Somehow, this is not a problem in countries with stricter gun control laws...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 13, 2021, 11:36:17 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 03:15:02 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 13, 2021, 02:57:45 AM
Let's start here: does US policing work as intended or would like to see some reforms Yi?

If yes, then please elaborate.

I'm happy with the policing where I work.

I think big city cop unions should be demolished.

If other localities want to try the social worker model and show us if it works, I say knock yourself out.

I wouldn't object to use of deadly force being federalized if local DAs seem to not be doing the job.

What does local DA mean?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 13, 2021, 11:53:02 AM
District Attorney.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 13, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2021, 01:39:59 AM
Of course, we all know it isn't about just this one incident.

Well that's the problem (for both ends).

Not all incidents wind up like this.  Seemingly very few do (in surveys police are still pretty widely supported).

But we also know that there are plenty more incidents that end poorly that don't get publicized.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 13, 2021, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2021, 01:39:59 AM
Of course, we all know it isn't about just this one incident.


But do we know that this incidence is indicative of a widespread problem?

I think it is assumed, but I don't know if that is true in a manner that supports the rhetoric being employed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 13, 2021, 12:43:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 13, 2021, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2021, 01:39:59 AM
Of course, we all know it isn't about just this one incident.


But do we know that this incidence is indicative of a widespread problem?

I think it is assumed, but I don't know if that is true in a manner that supports the rhetoric being employed.

Is there a widespread problem in how cops police minorities? For sure. Whether or not this incident is the best example of that seems irrelevant from my point of view.

Admittedly I'm someone afraid of the police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 13, 2021, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 06:59:14 PM

The jump the shark moment IMO is when the cops are yelling at the driver to exit the vehicle and he just continues to sit there.


You keep saying this, but he was given two orders simultaneously that conflicted: keep your hands where I can see them and get out of the car.

He had his seatbelt on, so it was literally impossible for him to do both. By following the one order ("Keep your hands where I can see them") he at least knew that he wasn't showing himself a threat to the officers. If he had reached around to undo his seatbelt, there is a very real risk that he would have been shot for a perceived threat.

Do you not agree with that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 01:56:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 13, 2021, 01:48:14 PM
You keep saying this, but he was given two orders simultaneously that conflicted: keep your hands where I can see them and get out of the car.

He had his seatbelt on, so it was literally impossible for him to do both. By following the one order ("Keep your hands where I can see them") he at least knew that he wasn't showing himself a threat to the officers. If he had reached around to undo his seatbelt, there is a very real risk that he would have been shot for a perceived threat.

Do you not agree with that?

I agree with that.

There was a time before the show your hands order when the only order he was being given was to get out of the car.  That went on for quite some time.

Do you not agree with that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 13, 2021, 02:09:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 01:56:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 13, 2021, 01:48:14 PM
You keep saying this, but he was given two orders simultaneously that conflicted: keep your hands where I can see them and get out of the car.

He had his seatbelt on, so it was literally impossible for him to do both. By following the one order ("Keep your hands where I can see them") he at least knew that he wasn't showing himself a threat to the officers. If he had reached around to undo his seatbelt, there is a very real risk that he would have been shot for a perceived threat.

Do you not agree with that?

I agree with that.

There was a time before the show your hands order when the only order he was being given was to get out of the car.  That went on for quite some time.

Do you not agree with that?

He still would have had to unclick the seatbelt, thereby moving his hands out of view. Given the multiple incidences where officers have shot someone for that, I could see his reticence to follow that particular order for that reason.

For every "the guy could have been a threat to the officers" that you say, it's just as easy to say that the police could have been a threat to the guy. The man stated loudly and clearly that he was afraid. He was afraid to move. He was afraid of the officers. The police responded with, "You should be." Gun aimed at his head. "Get out of the car."

I've been stopped by police probably a dozen times in my life. Likely more. Never once has this happened. And I have driven more than a mile with the officers behind me to get off a highway, to find somewhere safe to pull over. In fact, women are regularly told to do exactly this rather than pulling over on a country road with minimal traffic because our safety is at risk otherwise. Never once has this happened.

I am not a threat. I am a small white woman. I am perceived as non-threatening in pretty much every way simply because of my gender and race. This man was a large black man. He was therefore a threat. His gender and race made him a threat. THAT is a problem. THAT is where things went left. The police saw him as a threat not because he didn't comply, but because he wasn't a small white woman.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 02:17:26 PM
When do you think the officers became aware of his race?  I think it was only after they had approached the door.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 13, 2021, 02:24:15 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 13, 2021, 02:57:45 AM
Let's start here: does US policing work as intended or would like to see some reforms Yi?

If yes, then please elaborate.


I'd put Seedy in charge.  For now on the only weapons that police are allowed carry are revolvers and bondage gear.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on April 13, 2021, 08:45:50 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2021, 07:27:53 PM
Driving under the speed limit for a mile is not eluding police.
it's a clear sign you have something to hide! :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on April 13, 2021, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 12, 2021, 09:11:01 PM
I can conceive of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.

Can you not?
I'm pretty sure everyone here conceives of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.  The problem is, you seem to consider minor possible traffic violation to be such situation where as most of us don't.
I think there's a difference in being pulled over for an unreadable license plate in a car that drives suspiciously slowly and being arrested after a multi-car police chase where lots of accidents have happenned.  There, I understant the need for the officer to get out of their car weapon in hand, aiming at the suspect. But if I'm stopped for speeding in the US, I sure hope they'll ask for my driver's license before shooting me.   :frusty:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 09:07:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 13, 2021, 08:53:03 PM
I'm pretty sure everyone here conceives of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.  The problem is, you seem to consider minor possible traffic violation to be such situation where as most of us don't.
I think there's a difference in being pulled over for an unreadable license plate in a car that drives suspiciously slowly and being arrested after a multi-car police chase where lots of accidents have happenned.  There, I understant the need for the officer to get out of their car weapon in hand, aiming at the suspect. But if I'm stopped for speeding in the US, I sure hope they'll ask for my driver's license before shooting me.   :frusty:

Because I'm OK with the cops pulling their weapons that means I would be OK with them shooting the driver???  WTF?

There's a massive difference between pulling a weapon and actually shooting it.  For one, a bullet comes out the pointy end when you shoot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2021, 03:39:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 13, 2021, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2021, 01:39:59 AM
Of course, we all know it isn't about just this one incident.


But do we know that this incidence is indicative of a widespread problem?

I think it is assumed, but I don't know if that is true in a manner that supports the rhetoric being employed.

The US is higher on a per capita killing list by law enforcement than such luminaries as Pakistan, Mexico, Sudan, Mali, Colomiba and Angola.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on April 14, 2021, 04:46:47 AM
Its quite likely that cops aren't enforcing effectively in those countries.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2021, 07:21:41 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2021, 03:39:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 13, 2021, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2021, 01:39:59 AM
Of course, we all know it isn't about just this one incident.


But do we know that this incidence is indicative of a widespread problem?

I think it is assumed, but I don't know if that is true in a manner that supports the rhetoric being employed.

The US is higher on a per capita killing list by law enforcement than such luminaries as Pakistan, Mexico, Sudan, Mali, Colomiba and Angola.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country

See, now we are talking about data! Much better!

This incidence still doesn't illuminate that data though, nor does that data alone indicate that the police are the problem. But at least it is actual data!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on April 14, 2021, 08:52:47 AM
If the Police is not the problem, who is?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 14, 2021, 08:54:38 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 12, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2021, 08:21:57 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
Yeah, I think there has to be a recognition that taking on a risk is part of the job.  If you treat citizens you deal with as citizens rather than civilians, you're probably going to have some cops killed when they wouldn't otherwise be killed.  That's the consequence of living in a country that protects the rights of not just cops, but also citizens.  I'm sure that ordering a drone strike on every car you pull over will likewise result in less cop deaths, but I think even some in the Blue Lives Matter movement would argue that this is an excessive measure to ensure the safety of cops.


I really hate the police talking about people as "civilians".  Police are not an army, yet they have the mindset of an occupying force.

Civillians have always excluded police.

Here's one definition:

Quote
ci·​vil·​ian | \ sə-ˈvil-yən  also -ˈvi-yən \
Definition of civilian (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b: OUTSIDER sense 1

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian)

And another:

Quotecivilian
noun [ C ]
UK  /sɪˈvɪl.jən/ US  /səˈvɪl.jən/

C2
a person who is not a member of the police or the armed forces:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/civilian (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/civilian)


In my line of work we always distinguish between police witnesses and civilian witnesses.


Are police legitimate military targets?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: chipwich on April 14, 2021, 04:46:47 AM
Its quite likely that cops aren't enforcing effectively in those countries.

They are similar to the US in that regard.  There seems to be a negative correlation between "enforcing effectively" and kill count.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 08:57:19 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 14, 2021, 08:52:47 AM
If the Police is not the problem, who is?

Everyone except the police, if you believe the Conservatards.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
Traditionally, and in international law, a civilian is someone who is not an active member of the armed forces or an equivalent organization (in the case of guerrillas and the like).  The idea that police (and sometimes firefighters) are not civilians has been promoted recently, but I don't know of any legal system that says that a terrorist attack on police is not terrorism because terrorism is (partially) defined as an act that would  "appear to be intended.. to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It is unclear to me what the promoters of the "police are not civilians" argument intend, nor why they have even made that argument.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 14, 2021, 09:37:28 AM
Data from Axios:

(https://i.imgur.com/mWuPwRR.jpeg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 14, 2021, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
Traditionally, and in international law, a civilian is someone who is not an active member of the armed forces or an equivalent organization (in the case of guerrillas and the like).  The idea that police (and sometimes firefighters) are not civilians has been promoted recently, but I don't know of any legal system that says that a terrorist attack on police is not terrorism because terrorism is (partially) defined as an act that would  "appear to be intended.. to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It is unclear to me what the promoters of the "police are not civilians" argument intend, nor why they have even made that argument.

It would create an interesting situation if a gang member wearing gang colors shot a uniformed police officer and argued that he could not be tried for because it was an act of war against a legitimate military target.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
Traditionally, and in international law, a civilian is someone who is not an active member of the armed forces or an equivalent organization (in the case of guerrillas and the like).  The idea that police (and sometimes firefighters) are not civilians has been promoted recently, but I don't know of any legal system that says that a terrorist attack on police is not terrorism because terrorism is (partially) defined as an act that would  "appear to be intended.. to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It is unclear to me what the promoters of the "police are not civilians" argument intend, nor why they have even made that argument.

Police, and military wear uniforms, ranks, and a hierarchical command structure.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider them to be civilians in the course of their duties.  That would also be extended to other uniformed forces like border guards, coast guard, corrections officers and the like.

Just because they're not civilians doesn't mean they're military of course.  To answer Raz's question police are not military targets because they're not military - they're police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2021, 11:50:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
Traditionally, and in international law, a civilian is someone who is not an active member of the armed forces or an equivalent organization (in the case of guerrillas and the like).  The idea that police (and sometimes firefighters) are not civilians has been promoted recently, but I don't know of any legal system that says that a terrorist attack on police is not terrorism because terrorism is (partially) defined as an act that would  "appear to be intended.. to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It is unclear to me what the promoters of the "police are not civilians" argument intend, nor why they have even made that argument.

Police, and military wear uniforms, ranks, and a hierarchical command structure.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider them to be civilians in the course of their duties.  That would also be extended to other uniformed forces like border guards, coast guard, corrections officers and the like.

Just because they're not civilians doesn't mean they're military of course.  To answer Raz's question police are not military targets because they're not military - they're police.

And beyond the uniforms etc.  Police are given powers that civilians do not have.  It is an interesting argument that a non civilian can only be someone in the military, but that is too narrow.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on April 14, 2021, 12:01:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 09:07:42 PM
Because I'm OK with the cops pulling their weapons that means I would be OK with them shooting the driver???  WTF?

There's a massive difference between pulling a weapon and actually shooting it.  For one, a bullet comes out the pointy end when you shoot.
of course there's a massive difference.  But it's called escalating the situation.  And once the gun is out, you're one step away from shooting.  Why would there be a need to pull your gun for a simple traffic stop?  If I'm speeding 130km/h in a 100km/h zone, why would the officer pull their gun on me?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2021, 12:01:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 09:07:42 PM
Because I'm OK with the cops pulling their weapons that means I would be OK with them shooting the driver???  WTF?

There's a massive difference between pulling a weapon and actually shooting it.  For one, a bullet comes out the pointy end when you shoot.
of course there's a massive difference.  But it's called escalating the situation.  And once the gun is out, you're one step away from shooting.  Why would there be a need to pull your gun for a simple traffic stop?  If I'm speeding 130km/h in a 100km/h zone, why would the officer pull their gun on me?

[Use of force Nerd]

No, once your gun is out you're not one step away from shooting.  Just for starters you can have your gun at either low ready (pointing in general direction of subject but towards the ground) and high ready (pointing at subject).

And more generally, any reputable use of force model says that such situations are dynamic, and there is no set order or specific model one follows.

I've posted this guy before:

(https://www.hilltimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/IMIM.jpg)

[/use of force Nerd]
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
The US version so much simpler to understand.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 12:29:38 PM
Why would you put an officer in the bullseye on that chart?  Shouldn't the focus of policing be on shooting at the suspects?  Or did I not interpret this training diagram correctly?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 12:31:11 PM
I sometimes get the feeling that some US cops are trained to "shoot to kill". Is this true? If it is, I can see why they like to put 24 rounds in chests. It makes sense if the purpose is to kill. Seems to me that a reasonable police force keeps its eyes on the more sane purpose of "instantly incapacitate with the highest chance of success".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 14, 2021, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
Traditionally, and in international law, a civilian is someone who is not an active member of the armed forces or an equivalent organization (in the case of guerrillas and the like).  The idea that police (and sometimes firefighters) are not civilians has been promoted recently, but I don't know of any legal system that says that a terrorist attack on police is not terrorism because terrorism is (partially) defined as an act that would  "appear to be intended.. to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It is unclear to me what the promoters of the "police are not civilians" argument intend, nor why they have even made that argument.

Police, and military wear uniforms, ranks, and a hierarchical command structure.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider them to be civilians in the course of their duties.  That would also be extended to other uniformed forces like border guards, coast guard, corrections officers and the like.

Just because they're not civilians doesn't mean they're military of course.  To answer Raz's question police are not military targets because they're not military - they're police.

So... if police attacked a legal combatant they could be tried as war criminals or face summery execution?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 12:46:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2021, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
Traditionally, and in international law, a civilian is someone who is not an active member of the armed forces or an equivalent organization (in the case of guerrillas and the like).  The idea that police (and sometimes firefighters) are not civilians has been promoted recently, but I don't know of any legal system that says that a terrorist attack on police is not terrorism because terrorism is (partially) defined as an act that would  "appear to be intended.. to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It is unclear to me what the promoters of the "police are not civilians" argument intend, nor why they have even made that argument.

Police, and military wear uniforms, ranks, and a hierarchical command structure.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider them to be civilians in the course of their duties.  That would also be extended to other uniformed forces like border guards, coast guard, corrections officers and the like.

Just because they're not civilians doesn't mean they're military of course.  To answer Raz's question police are not military targets because they're not military - they're police.

So... if police attacked a legal combatant they could be tried as war criminals or face summery execution?

Let's try and pick through this kind of insane hypothetical of yours (no offence).

Police are not military.  They would not be deployed in a war zone.  They would not be deployed to engage in offensive military actions.

So where exactly does this enemy combatant come from?  Are they parachuting in Red Dawn style?  If so police still have a legal obligation to protect life.  If Cuban commandoes are shooting up civilians, or appear that they might be about to, police would be legally justified to employ lethal force.  If instead you have some North Korean commandos just walking down the street unarmed then yes I think they could be charged as just regular criminals if they just open up and start blasting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 14, 2021, 12:53:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2021, 09:07:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 13, 2021, 08:53:03 PM
I'm pretty sure everyone here conceives of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.  The problem is, you seem to consider minor possible traffic violation to be such situation where as most of us don't.
I think there's a difference in being pulled over for an unreadable license plate in a car that drives suspiciously slowly and being arrested after a multi-car police chase where lots of accidents have happenned.  There, I understant the need for the officer to get out of their car weapon in hand, aiming at the suspect. But if I'm stopped for speeding in the US, I sure hope they'll ask for my driver's license before shooting me.   :frusty:

Because I'm OK with the cops pulling their weapons that means I would be OK with them shooting the driver???  WTF?

There's a massive difference between pulling a weapon and actually shooting it.  For one, a bullet comes out the pointy end when you shoot.

I believe that officers are taught that if they pull their weapons they should be ready to fire them. So if they've already pulled their weapon, they are already okay with firing them.

For a traffic stop, that's insane.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 14, 2021, 12:53:17 PM
I believe that officers are taught that if they pull their weapons they should be ready to fire them. So if they've already pulled their weapon, they are already okay with firing them.

For a traffic stop, that's insane.

Ready to fire them is not the same as being okay with firing them.

Ready just means, well, ready.  That if circumstances change and you need to fire then you're not looking around for your gun, you're not worried about whether it's loaded, or what not.  But it's obvious that there are many situations where a firearm is out of the holster it's not intended to be fired (at least so far).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 14, 2021, 01:02:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 12:46:08 PM
So where exactly does this enemy combatant come from?  Are they parachuting in Red Dawn style?  If so police still have a legal obligation to protect life.  If Cuban commandoes are shooting up civilians, or appear that they might be about to, police would be legally justified to employ lethal force.  If instead you have some North Korean commandos just walking down the street unarmed then yes I think they could be charged as just regular criminals if they just open up and start blasting.

Wait wtf?

So the Wolverines in Red Dawn could be charged as criminals for attacking the cubans who were not actively doing bad stuff?

More to the point, in addition to the University of Michigan being really dumb for naming their sports teams after something in that movie, did they also name themselves after a band of war criminals?  :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 14, 2021, 01:02:45 PM
I forget, you are not an American.  We had a little dust up a few months ago and so what is and what is not a legal combatant is sorta on my mind.  I'm thinking more along the lines of a civil war situation.  Let's call them "Side-A" and Side-B".  Could Side-A police shoot at Side-B military?  What about Side-A police versus Side-B irregulars?  Can Side A police guard side B-military?  If the police are not military but are not civilian what are they?  Are they protected by the rules of war?


This was directed at BB.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 14, 2021, 01:02:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 12:46:08 PM
So where exactly does this enemy combatant come from?  Are they parachuting in Red Dawn style?  If so police still have a legal obligation to protect life.  If Cuban commandoes are shooting up civilians, or appear that they might be about to, police would be legally justified to employ lethal force.  If instead you have some North Korean commandos just walking down the street unarmed then yes I think they could be charged as just regular criminals if they just open up and start blasting.

Wait wtf?

So the Wolverines in Red Dawn could be charged as criminals for attacking the cubans who were not actively doing bad stuff? At the end of the movie they showed that the Wolverines memorialized for their resistance: were the Americans honoring war criminals?  :blink:

More to the point, in addition to the University of Michigan being really dumb for naming their sports teams after something in that movie, did they also name themselves after a band of war criminals?  :(

I think the Wolverines fate (who, may I add, were not police which is what we were discussing) would be decided by the victors.  In a US victory they're heroes.  In a Soviet victory they're summarily executed as terrorists.

Edit: even in a purely military scenario if you see an unarmed enemy combatant just walking down the road is it legal under the rules of war to just summarily shoot this person?  Is there no obligation to detain / capture?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2021, 01:02:45 PM
I forget, you are not an American.  We had a little dust up a few months ago and so what is and what is not a legal combatant is sorta on my mind.  I'm thinking more along the lines of a civil war situation.  Let's call them "Side-A" and Side-B".  Could Side-A police shoot at Side-B military?  What about Side-A police versus Side-B irregulars?  Can Side A police guard side B-military?  If the police are not military but are not civilian what are they?  Are they protected by the rules of war?


This was directed at BB.

I have little idea what the rules of war are like during a civil war.  If police on either side start taking up arms against the other then they're some level of combatants and treated as same.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 14, 2021, 01:02:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 12:46:08 PM
So where exactly does this enemy combatant come from?  Are they parachuting in Red Dawn style?  If so police still have a legal obligation to protect life.  If Cuban commandoes are shooting up civilians, or appear that they might be about to, police would be legally justified to employ lethal force.  If instead you have some North Korean commandos just walking down the street unarmed then yes I think they could be charged as just regular criminals if they just open up and start blasting.

Wait wtf?

So the Wolverines in Red Dawn could be charged as criminals for attacking the cubans who were not actively doing bad stuff? At the end of the movie they showed that the Wolverines memorialized for their resistance: were the Americans honoring war criminals?  :blink:

More to the point, in addition to the University of Michigan being really dumb for naming their sports teams after something in that movie, did they also name themselves after a band of war criminals?  :(

I think the Wolverines fate (who, may I add, were not police which is what we were discussing) would be decided by the victors.  In a US victory they're heroes.  In a Soviet victory they're summarily executed as terrorists.

Edit: even in a purely military scenario if you see an unarmed enemy combatant just walking down the road is it legal under the rules of war to just summarily shoot this person?  Is there no obligation to detain / capture?

AFAIK ambushes are legal in war.

Edit: For clarity, including of unarmed soldiers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 14, 2021, 01:24:36 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 14, 2021, 08:52:47 AM
If the Police is not the problem, who is?

I believe that the police in the US are most definitely the problem, but I can see a rational response to your question being 'the insane gun culture in the US'.

The US has more guns in more people's hands than most other countries. That means the potential threat to cops during any aggressive encounter is going to be higher, meaning that on average the incidence of quite legitimate threats to the cops in doing their job will be higher - all else being equal. It doesn't matter if the interaction started out as aggressive or not - a simple traffic stop where someone is annoyed at getting a ticket could turn lethal if that person gets pissed off and pulls a gun.

The argument goes that, even if the cops in the US were not a problem, you could reasonably expect more police shootings per cop than a comparable country without an insane gun culture.

In my opinion, there is more to it than that, but at least that's a rational argument.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 14, 2021, 02:01:18 PM
Also, the deeply stupid mentality present in a society with more guns than people is going to infiltrate the society's police forces.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2021, 12:01:40 PM
of course there's a massive difference.  But it's called escalating the situation.  And once the gun is out, you're one step away from shooting.  Why would there be a need to pull your gun for a simple traffic stop?  If I'm speeding 130km/h in a 100km/h zone, why would the officer pull their gun on me?

But you didn't accuse me of being in favor of cops being one step away from shooting this guy in the BP parking lot.  You accused me of being in favor of actually shooting him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on April 14, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 12:31:11 PM
I sometimes get the feeling that some US cops are trained to "shoot to kill". Is this true? If it is, I can see why they like to put 24 rounds in chests. It makes sense if the purpose is to kill. Seems to me that a reasonable police force keeps its eyes on the more sane purpose of "instantly incapacitate with the highest chance of success".

I am not sure if it is true, but I would be surprised and a little shocked that any police were trained to shoot to wound or incapacitate. If an officer is in a position where they are firing their gun, they should be shooting to kill and damn the consequences otherwise.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 02:36:45 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 14, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 12:31:11 PM
I sometimes get the feeling that some US cops are trained to "shoot to kill". Is this true? If it is, I can see why they like to put 24 rounds in chests. It makes sense if the purpose is to kill. Seems to me that a reasonable police force keeps its eyes on the more sane purpose of "instantly incapacitate with the highest chance of success".

I am not sure if it is true, but I would be surprised and a little shocked that any police were trained to shoot to wound or incapacitate. If an officer is in a position where they are firing their gun, they should be shooting to kill and damn the consequences otherwise.

In talking with (Canadian) cops, they aren't exactly trained to "shoot to kill", but rather to shoot at the centre body mass.  Aiming a handgun is tricky at the best of times, never mind in a high-stress environment.  Aiming centre body mass has your best chance of hitting the target, and thus putting down the suspect and ending the threat.

And if you're not prepared to risk killing the suspect you shouldn't be shooting in the first place.  That's what less-lethal options like a taser or OC spray are for.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 14, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 12:31:11 PM
I sometimes get the feeling that some US cops are trained to "shoot to kill". Is this true? If it is, I can see why they like to put 24 rounds in chests. It makes sense if the purpose is to kill. Seems to me that a reasonable police force keeps its eyes on the more sane purpose of "instantly incapacitate with the highest chance of success".

I am not sure if it is true, but I would be surprised and a little shocked that any police were trained to shoot to wound or incapacitate. If an officer is in a position where they are firing their gun, they should be shooting to kill and damn the consequences otherwise.
I recall The Brain mentioning a couple of times that Swedes take great pride in having cops that know how to shoot the legs of suspects.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 02:50:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 14, 2021, 09:37:28 AM
Data from Axios:

Do they have a similar graphic for cop deaths?  That would be interesting to look at.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 02:59:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 02:50:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 14, 2021, 09:37:28 AM
Data from Axios:

Do they have a similar graphic for cop deaths?  That would be interesting to look at.

Here's the best I can find from 15 second of googling:

QuoteTotal Line of Duty Deaths: 359

9/11 related illness14
Aircraft accident 1
Assault 1
Automobile crash 19
COVID19 231
Drowned 4
Duty related illness 5
Gunfire 45
Gunfire (Inadvertent) 4
Heart attack 7
Heatstroke 1
Motorcycle crash 4
Struck by vehicle 8
Vehicle pursuit 2
Vehicular assault 13

https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020

2019 showed only 150 line of duty deaths
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 03:03:05 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 14, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 14, 2021, 12:31:11 PM
I sometimes get the feeling that some US cops are trained to "shoot to kill". Is this true? If it is, I can see why they like to put 24 rounds in chests. It makes sense if the purpose is to kill. Seems to me that a reasonable police force keeps its eyes on the more sane purpose of "instantly incapacitate with the highest chance of success".

I am not sure if it is true, but I would be surprised and a little shocked that any police were trained to shoot to wound or incapacitate. If an officer is in a position where they are firing their gun, they should be shooting to kill and damn the consequences otherwise.

Shooting to wound is not what I'm talking about. All sane police forces that I'm aware of shoot to wound if they can choose between shooting to wound and shooting to instantly incapacitate with the highest chance of success (AKA a bullet to center of mass, which is highly likely to kill the person). If you shoot someone in the chest, and you're shooting to kill, it makes sense to put a lot of bullets in the guy to avoid any chance of him surviving. If you're not shooting to kill you don't need to keep shooting once the guy is out of action. If your instructors have drummed into you that you should "shoot to kill" then it makes sense to make sure the guy is dead.

IIRC I've seen a clip of US cops (sniper) shooting the gun out of a guy's hand, so it's not like even US cops always shoot to kill.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 02:59:19 PM
Here's the best I can find from 15 second of googling:

Thanks, but what I was looking for is more along the lines of "X number of cops killed during domestic incident, Y number of cops killed during traffic incident," etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 02:59:19 PM
Here's the best I can find from 15 second of googling:

Thanks, but what I was looking for is more along the lines of "X number of cops killed during domestic incident, Y number of cops killed during traffic incident," etc.

Really though Jacob's chart wasn't much help either.  It just says what the initial call was - it doesn't say much of anything about how the individual death happened.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 03:11:55 PM
Really though Jacob's chart wasn't much help either.  It just says what the initial call was - it doesn't say much of anything about how the individual death happened.

It says police killings.  What more do you need?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 14, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Here's from FBI in 2019.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty

QuoteFBI Releases 2019 Statistics on Law Enforcement Officers Killed in the Line of Duty

The 48 felonious deaths occurred in 19 states and in Puerto Rico. The number of officers killed as a result of criminal acts in 2019 was 8 less than the 56 officers who were feloniously killed in 2018. The 5- and 10-year comparisons show an increase of 7 felonious deaths compared with the 2015 figure (41 officers) and a decrease of 7 deaths compared with 2010 data (55 officers).

Circumstances. Of the 48 officers feloniously killed:

15 died as a result of investigative or law enforcement activities
6 were conducting traffic violation stops
4 were performing investigative activities
2 were drug-related matters
2 were interacting with wanted persons
1 was investigating suspicious person or circumstance

9 were involved in tactical situations
3 were barricaded/hostage situations
3 were serving, or attempting to serve, search warrants
2 were serving, or attempting to serve, arrest warrants
1 was reported in the category titled "other tactical situation"


5 were involved in unprovoked attacks

4 were responding to crimes in progress
2 were robberies
1 was larceny-theft
1 was reported in the category titled "other crime against property"

3 were involved in arrest situations and were attempting to restrain/control/handcuff the offender(s) during the arrest situations

3 were assisting other law enforcement officers
2 with vehicular pursuits
1 with foot pursuit

3 were responding to disorders or disturbances
2 were responding to disturbances (disorderly subjects, fights, etc.)
1 was responding to a domestic violence call

3 were involved in vehicular pursuits

2 were ambushed (entrapment/premeditation)

1 was serving, or attempting to serve, a court order (eviction notice, subpoena, etc.).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 14, 2021, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 02:59:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 02:50:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 14, 2021, 09:37:28 AM
Data from Axios:

Do they have a similar graphic for cop deaths?  That would be interesting to look at.

Here's the best I can find from 15 second of googling:

QuoteTotal Line of Duty Deaths: 359

9/11 related illness14
Aircraft accident 1
Assault 1
Automobile crash 19
COVID19 231
Drowned 4
Duty related illness 5
Gunfire 45
Gunfire (Inadvertent) 4
Heart attack 7
Heatstroke 1
Motorcycle crash 4
Struck by vehicle 8
Vehicle pursuit 2
Vehicular assault 13

https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020

2019 showed only 150 line of duty deaths

Out of over 800,000 police officers in the US in 2020. So... 0.000056% die by gunfire.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 03:18:59 PM
Good find Grab On.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 14, 2021, 03:24:08 PM
Assaults not surprisingly much higher though rarely because of a gun / I guess few shot at who actually sustained injuries.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2019/topic-pages/officers-assaulted

QuoteOverview
In 2019, the FBI collected assault data from 9,457 law enforcement agencies that employed 475,848 officers. These officers provided service to more than 219.8 million people, or 67.0 percent of the nation's population. (See Table 80.)
Law enforcement agencies reported that 56,034 officers were assaulted while performing their duties in 2019. (See Table 80.)
The rate of officer assaults in 2019 was 11.8 per 100 sworn officers. (See Table 80.)

Injuries
Of the 56,034 officers who were assaulted, 17,188 (30.7 percent) sustained injuries. (Based on Table 80.)
24.9 percent of the officers who were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet) suffered injuries. (See Table 85.)
8.8 percent of the officers who were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments were injured. (See Table 85.)
5.6 percent of officers who were attacked with firearms were injured. (See Table 85.)
15.9 percent of officers who were attacked with other dangerous weapons were injured. (See Table 85.)

...

Circumstances
Of all officers who were assaulted in 2018:

30.4 percent were responding to disturbance calls (family quarrels, bar fights, etc.). (Based on Table 83.)
17.1 percent were attempting other arrests. (Based on Table 83.)
12.8 percent were handling, transporting, or maintaining custody of prisoners. (Based on Table 83.)

...

Weapons
In 2019, 79.3 percent of officers who were assaulted in the line of duty were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet). (Based on Table 85.)
3.8 percent of the officers were assaulted with firearms. (Based on Table 85.)
1.9 percent of the officers were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments. (Based on Table 85.)
15.1 percent of the officers were assaulted with other dangerous weapons. (Based on Table 85.)

I wonder if the 2018 mention is a typo as everything else seems to be about 2019 on that page.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 02:59:19 PM
Here's the best I can find from 15 second of googling:

Thanks, but what I was looking for is more along the lines of "X number of cops killed during domestic incident, Y number of cops killed during traffic incident," etc.

Really though Jacob's chart wasn't much help either.  It just says what the initial call was - it doesn't say much of anything about how the individual death happened.
Yeah, I looked at it and rolled my eyes, but didn't really say anything, because it was a really subtle job.  It didn't say anything untrue, but it certainly framed true things in a way to lead you to an untrue conclusion.  Whether an initial call was non-violent or not seems to not be very relevant to the issue, but they're not saying that it is.  They're just putting the information out there, good luck pinning down the dishonesty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 14, 2021, 04:15:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 03:26:15 PM
Yeah, I looked at it and rolled my eyes, but didn't really say anything, because it was a really subtle job.  It didn't say anything untrue, but it certainly framed true things in a way to lead you to an untrue conclusion.  Whether an initial call was non-violent or not seems to not be very relevant to the issue, but they're not saying that it is.  They're just putting the information out there, good luck pinning down the dishonesty.

A better chart would be one from which deaths were sorted into "the dead person clearly acted in a way that justified killing them and they deserved getting shot", "the dead person acted in an ambiguous way so we can't blame the police for killing them even if the dead person didn't actually deserve death", and "the police acted completely unreasonably and killed an innocent person" or some such (depending on what you think the issue is, of course).

The problem of course is that sorting the more than 1,100 dead into those categories is going to be subjective and potentially controversal.

The one advantage that the chart has is that the data seems pretty clear cut, and there's little room to argue whatever your position. But as you imply, if you use it as a proxy for "justified killing" vs "not-justified" then it's not particularly useful.

Still that more than 8% of people killed by the police (94) happened during mental illness/ wellness checks IMO points to a very real issue in the best way the handle those type of calls.

Similarly that more than 10% of people killed by the police (121) were killed during non-violent domestic disturbance calls suggests that there could be better ways to respond to such calls.

In both cases, knowing that ~20% of police killings result from those two categories could also potentially give someone pause before calling the police in in those situations, even if every single killing was justifiable in the situation where it actually happened.

If the neighbour's teenager seems distressed and might potentially harm himself because he hasn't got his meds, maybe it's better to wait it out than call the police to deal with the situation? It seems like there's a non-trivial risk that the kid might do something that would require the application of lethal force by the police, so maybe it's best to handle it some other way (even if that carries risks too).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 04:33:07 PM
The data may be clear and true, but also irrelevant.  I think that's the case here.  Unfortunately, the expectation is that all data presented is relevant, so the reader has to search for relevance, and the one he's being guided to is that a lot of non-violent situations become needlessly deadly because police gets involved.

I don't think it would be a good thing for citizens to take into account the possibility of a violent confrontation with police when making a decision to call 911.  What if a mentally disturbed person situation does happen, you decide to not call the police because you're afraid they're going to shoot him, and then the mentally disturbed person becomes violent and hurts people himself?  It shouldn't be your judgment to make.  Just because an initial situation is classified as "non-violent" does not mean that it was a situation that police had no business being involved with.  I think people are forgetting that lack of police involvement in criminal matters may also be a bad thing; let's not forget that occasionally it's the criminals who do the killing.

Another problem with this chart is that you can turn the conclusion completely around.  If you don't go with the assumption that you're being led to, that police involvement leads to needless violence in situations that weren't violent to begin with, you can come to a conclusion that police is right to be hypervigilant in all cases.  If even non-violent calls can become violent, then as a cop you really shouldn't let your guard down ever.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 04:37:33 PM
One other point:  I know it's anecdotal evidence, but we do have an anecdote right here on this forum.  Berkut's nephew responded to a non-violent call.  If he managed to shoot the shoplifter who seriously wounded him, that incident would go into the 58% column.   :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 14, 2021, 04:51:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 04:33:07 PM
I don't think it would be a good thing for citizens to take into account the possibility of a violent confrontation with police when making a decision to call 911.

This is absolutely already the case. I certainly thought more than twice about calling cops on disturbances precisely because I had little confidence they would respond with proportionate strength or appropriate judgment to the situation. I know I am not alone in this, as many of my Black colleagues did the same.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 04:52:12 PM
I had no problem with Jake's chart.  If the person viewing the chart leaps to an unwarranted conclusion, that's on them.  If there was any message in it, it is that even ostensibly nonviolent encounters can turn violent.

Jake: I agree police killings in those situations create the possibility that there are better ways to handle them.  That's why I said earlier I'm open to others experimenting with the social worker model.  That way my concerns about the model can be alleviated (or confirmed).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 14, 2021, 04:58:12 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 14, 2021, 04:51:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 04:33:07 PM
I don't think it would be a good thing for citizens to take into account the possibility of a violent confrontation with police when making a decision to call 911.

This is absolutely already the case. I certainly thought more than twice about calling cops on disturbances precisely because I had little confidence they would respond with proportionate strength or appropriate judgment to the situation. I know I am not alone in this, as many of my Black colleagues did the same.

Indeed. It is also always down to an individual's judgment on whether or not they think a situation warrants calling the police or not.

That said I also agree it would be great if people didn't have to worry about police making a situation worse but alas that is not our present world.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: frunk on April 14, 2021, 05:00:31 PM
I think an even bigger problem with the chart is that it doesn't track how many calls of each type there were.  I'm assuming that there are many more traffic violation stops than all of the violent calls put together, but only a small fraction of them ended with death.  We are dealing with numerators without the denominators.

If you compare our death rate per stop in each category with other countries I'm sure it would show how out of whack it is (since our totals are so outrageously higher), but this on its own doesn't tell us much.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 14, 2021, 05:10:13 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 14, 2021, 04:51:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 04:33:07 PM
I don't think it would be a good thing for citizens to take into account the possibility of a violent confrontation with police when making a decision to call 911.

This is absolutely already the case. I certainly thought more than twice about calling cops on disturbances precisely because I had little confidence they would respond with proportionate strength or appropriate judgment to the situation. I know I am not alone in this, as many of my Black colleagues did the same.

:yes:

I've chosen not to call the police any number of times after assessing if what was going on warranted a death sentence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
WTF do you people do that you frequently get into situations where you would've called the cops on someone if not for your reluctance to proceed with the execution?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 14, 2021, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
WTF do you people do that you frequently get into situations where you would've called the cops on someone if not for your reluctance to proceed with the execution?

I lived in a community that was primarily not White in Portland. There were multiple times where loud music was played throughout the night, or where a group of teenagers were sitting near my apartment harassing people walking by, etc. It wasn't uncommon for me to call the non-emergency number of these kinds of things when I lived in a White Chicago suburb. But Portland police have had dozens of upheld lawsuits of overt violence against people of color.

So, given this knowledge, and knowing that police tend to escalate rather than de-escalating, I chose not to call the police at all. I bought earplugs, I crossed the street, etc. Because none of those things were worth a death penalty and I don't know how the police would have reacted.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 14, 2021, 05:26:48 PM
In fact, I wasn't uncommon for me to be on the phone with Seedy in the evening while walking my dog and a situation would come up where he would get mad at me for not calling the police. Nope. Not going to happen. He still gives me shit about it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
WTF do you people do that you frequently get into situations where you would've called the cops on someone if not for your reluctance to proceed with the execution?
Yeah - I've called the police once when I was burgled. Short of seeing violence I can't think of when I would call them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 05:58:35 PM
I've called the cops once, when a couple of black teenagers were picking up their friends at the apartment block next door.  The driver thought he was in reverse but was in forward, and he smashed into my neighbor's deck fencing.  They switched drivers, picked up their friends (three teenage white girls) and drove away.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Police, and military wear uniforms, ranks, and a hierarchical command structure.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider them to be civilians in the course of their duties.  That would also be extended to other uniformed forces like border guards, coast guard, corrections officers and the like.

Just because they're not civilians doesn't mean they're military of course.  To answer Raz's question police are not military targets because they're not military - they're police.

Dog Catchers, maintenance people, and parking attendants wear uniforms and have a hierarchical command structure. So do the Boy Scouts.  Are they al in this nebulous non-civilian-non-military status as well?

I don't understand the distinction being drawn by creating these categories of people that are neither civilians nor military.  US and international law recognize no such distinction, for good reason.  For what purpose are these categories being created.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2021, 07:33:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

That was once more or less true, but no longer (as evidenced by the new wave of thinking that police are not civilians any more, but separate.. whatever).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2021, 07:48:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 04:37:33 PM
One other point:  I know it's anecdotal evidence, but we do have an anecdote right here on this forum.  Berkut's nephew responded to a non-violent call.  If he managed to shoot the shoplifter who seriously wounded him, that incident would go into the 58% column.   :hmm:

I've hestiated to bring it up, simply because I think it is a bad mistake to draw any conclusions from anecdotes.

I look at what happened to my nephew, and I think the institutional response that is warranted (beyond prosecuting the specific person of course) is very possibly "no response at all".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2021, 09:55:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

The public are not given the powers of the police.  The reason the police are given those special powers is so they are not exercised by the public - ie vigilante justice
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 15, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
The public has the power to arrest (at least in the UK) when someone is committing a crime in front of them. I don't suppose it happens that much, easier and safer to call the police; but it is still there on the statute book and reaffirmed as recently as 1984.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2021, 01:40:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
WTF do you people do that you frequently get into situations where you would've called the cops on someone if not for your reluctance to proceed with the execution?
Yeah - I've called the police once when I was burgled. Short of seeing violence I can't think of when I would call them.
Same
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on April 15, 2021, 02:42:07 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2021, 05:58:35 PM
I've called the cops once, when a couple of black teenagers were picking up their friends at the apartment block next door.  The driver thought he was in reverse but was in forward, and he smashed into my neighbor's deck fencing.  They switched drivers, picked up their friends (three teenage white girls) and drove away.

Did the black teenagers survive?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2021, 03:07:35 AM
No, they drove away dead.  It was quite impressive.  Their friends just got in the car like it was an everyday thing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 15, 2021, 07:37:00 AM
When you're a black teenager in the US, you have to figure out how to do things while dead, or else you'll get nothing done.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on April 15, 2021, 10:41:26 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2021, 09:55:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

The public are not given the powers of the police.  The reason the police are given those special powers is so they are not exercised by the public - ie vigilante justice

Only Karens have the right to enforce the law (real or not) at any time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 10:52:58 AM
Doctors have powers not given to the public.   So do teachers, mall rent-a-cops, the ushers at baseball games, etc, etc.  Yet we don't talk about baseball ushers as distinct from civilians or not a part of the public.

Police have more discretion in the use of force than the average civilian, but having some different powers does not make any group something other than civilians and members of the public at large. I think that the shift in mindset to the police as being fundamentally different from, and apart from, the policed is dangerous to both the police and the rest of the civilians.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 15, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 10:52:58 AM
I think that the shift in mindset to the police as being fundamentally different from, and apart from, the policed is dangerous to both the police and the rest of the civilians.

Agreed. That said it does appear to be a definition that both the Cambridge Dictionary and Merriam-Webster agree on with civilian defined as not being a member of the police or armed forces (with Merriam-Webster also calling firefighters non-civilians).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 11:08:56 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2021, 01:40:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
WTF do you people do that you frequently get into situations where you would've called the cops on someone if not for your reluctance to proceed with the execution?
Yeah - I've called the police once when I was burgled. Short of seeing violence I can't think of when I would call them.
Same

This may (or may not) have also something to do with the areas where you live. Instances where you'd call the cops may probably not happen that often in affluent neighborhoods, suburbs where houses stand far apart, or commuter sleeptowns where one spends most of one's time in a car. In places where there are homeless people with mental illness issues; or where you live in apartment buildings where the walls are thin and you are hearing things which suggest domestic violence, or where you discover a stash of drugs in the neighborhood park... Added to that the fact that the emergency number in the US is the single 911, and you have no way of controlling who shows up - usually the cops.

I have lived in some pretty rough places in Canada and the US. (I also have lived in affluent spaces).  I do not drive. As a pedestrian, scenes of urban life are not simply infrequent decor, but just part of daily (or weekly) routine. When this is but an infrequent instance on your way to someplace else, you can ignore / runaway. Less so when this is where you live. Hence the call to have an emergency number solely dedicated to mental illness emergencies.

And, in fact, this also leads to a different facet of the same problem: people who live in affluent, manicured spaces, are scared of these things and of the "outsiders" that bring them - usually associated with black people and threat. And these people know cops are on *their* side, are helpful to them. Hence, all these calls to remove black families picnicking in municipal parks; to denounce a black jogger; to call about a robbery which turns out to be someone getting back to their own place. The Central Park lady knew this, and knew the black man she screamed at knew this. She knew the power of the threat she  wielded when she threatened to call the cops, and knew it could lead to way more tragic consequence than it ever could for her.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 11:17:31 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2021, 09:55:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

The public are not given the powers of the police.  The reason the police are given those special powers is so they are not exercised by the public - ie vigilante justice

Except that the police is a way more recent innovation than the military, and grew out, not of the military, but of the justice system. Justice is reputed to be delivered by your peers: police officers were created either as special-duty judges or as especially empowered citizens, doing, as RH mentioned, what every citizen was expected to do - not enact justice (that was never in play), but arrest criminals and reputed criminals and bring them, literally, to justice. The rules that used to govern police work were deemed to emerge from the simple recognition that these were subjects / citizens therefore afforded the protection of the sovereign, and reputed to have been going about their business normally. The military was deployed when that presumption was broken: rebellions, insurrections. It's a major symbolic rupture. If it no longer matters, the US may as well disband its police force and have its troops patrol its cities.

The civilian / military divide is much more fundamental, than the one civilian / police. That we collectively see less and less distinction between the two should give us pause.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

I would make the same point about the military though - they are part of the public as well.  They're not some foreign occupying force - they're fellow citizens.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 11:34:58 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 11:17:31 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2021, 09:55:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

The public are not given the powers of the police.  The reason the police are given those special powers is so they are not exercised by the public - ie vigilante justice

Except that the police is a way more recent innovation than the military, and grew out, not of the military, but of the justice system. Justice is reputed to be delivered by your peers: police officers were created either as special-duty judges or as especially empowered citizens, doing, as RH mentioned, what every citizen was expected to do - not enact justice (that was never in play), but arrest criminals and reputed criminals and bring them, literally, to justice. The rules that used to govern police work were deemed to emerge from the simple recognition that these were subjects / citizens therefore afforded the protection of the sovereign, and reputed to have been going about their business normally. The military was deployed when that presumption was broken: rebellions, insurrections. It's a major symbolic rupture. If it no longer matters, the US may as well disband its police force and have its troops patrol its cities.

The civilian / military divide is much more fundamental, than the one civilian / police. That we collectively see less and less distinction between the two should give us pause.

I quibble with a historian at my own peril, but you could say the same thing about the military.  The idea of a standing professional army is quite recent - for most of history soldiers were leveed when necessary and disbanded once the conflict was over.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 15, 2021, 11:35:27 AM
I tend to agree, the recent case in Virginia being an example of where those lines cross/blur. 

The distinction perhaps being when military are involved in active operations vs. driving home from work.

That said...for all of those reaching to the dictionary definitions...I would say that is just tail-wagging-the-dog kinda thinking.  I don't see any authority there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 15, 2021, 11:38:34 AM
One other confusing part to this is that state police are typically called troopers, and their stations are called barracks.  Some, like New Jersey State Police, also wear a uniform that looks distinctly military in nature.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on April 15, 2021, 11:39:51 AM
In California the State Police are called the Highway Patrol and they have the ability to selectively enforce speeding laws which gives them almost unlimited power.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 15, 2021, 11:43:50 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 11:08:56 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2021, 01:40:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 14, 2021, 05:19:42 PM
WTF do you people do that you frequently get into situations where you would've called the cops on someone if not for your reluctance to proceed with the execution?
Yeah - I've called the police once when I was burgled. Short of seeing violence I can't think of when I would call them.
Same

This may (or may not) have also something to do with the areas where you live. Instances where you'd call the cops may probably not happen that often in affluent neighborhoods, suburbs where houses stand far apart, or commuter sleeptowns where one spends most of one's time in a car. In places where there are homeless people with mental illness issues; or where you live in apartment buildings where the walls are thin and you are hearing things which suggest domestic violence, or where you discover a stash of drugs in the neighborhood park... Added to that the fact that the emergency number in the US is the single 911, and you have no way of controlling who shows up - usually the cops.

I have lived in some pretty rough places in Canada and the US. (I also have lived in affluent spaces).  I do not drive. As a pedestrian, scenes of urban life are not simply infrequent decor, but just part of daily (or weekly) routine. When this is but an infrequent instance on your way to someplace else, you can ignore / runaway. Less so when this is where you live. Hence the call to have an emergency number solely dedicated to mental illness emergencies.

And, in fact, this also leads to a different facet of the same problem: people who live in affluent, manicured spaces, are scared of these things and of the "outsiders" that bring them - usually associated with black people and threat. And these people know cops are on *their* side, are helpful to them. Hence, all these calls to remove black families picnicking in municipal parks; to denounce a black jogger; to call about a robbery which turns out to be someone getting back to their own place. The Central Park lady knew this, and knew the black man she screamed at knew this. She knew the power of the threat she  wielded when she threatened to call the cops, and knew it could lead to way more tragic consequence than it ever could for her.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 11:51:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 10:52:58 AM
I think that the shift in mindset to the police as being fundamentally different from, and apart from, the policed is dangerous to both the police and the rest of the civilians.

Agreed. That said it does appear to be a definition that both the Cambridge Dictionary and Merriam-Webster agree on with civilian defined as not being a member of the police or armed forces (with Merriam-Webster also calling firefighters non-civilians).

Yes, dictionaries (slowly) reflect common usage.  Many dictionaries don't reflect that usage.  The fact that dictionaries (even ones that hold police to be "none of the above") can't agree on what a civilian is not shows how in-flux the divisions between civilians and not-civilian-but-not-military-so-something-else-not-defined is.

My argument is not that no one believes that police are apart from the civilian population.  My argument is that this concept is relatively new (last 20-25 years) and, so, vaguely defined.  Additionally, I argue that this mental separation of police from the populace is dangerous to police (because the rest of the populous thus sees them as alien) and the rest of the populace (because the police now sees them as alien).  I suppose it might be good for police morale, because some of them can now view themselves as a separate and superior group, but that advantage doesn't make up for the many disadvantages.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 15, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
The public has the power to arrest (at least in the UK) when someone is committing a crime in front of them. I don't suppose it happens that much, easier and safer to call the police; but it is still there on the statute book and reaffirmed as recently as 1984.

Yes, there are limited powers of arrest, but that is an illustration of the difference between the police and the public.  The police powers do not have the same restrictions as a "civilian".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 11:55:27 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

I would make the same point about the military though - they are part of the public as well.  They're not some foreign occupying force - they're fellow citizens.
I think there's possibly a cultural difference on this here - possibly as a legacy of the Troubles. I think originally because of the IRA risk, military personnel aren't allowed to wear their uniforms if they're off-duty. I think that means that society has far more less of a visible military than in the US.

So while they are volunteers and soldiers are ordinary citizens they're not really visible and are basically perceived as confined to their base.

And of course the origin of the Peelian public are the police/police are the public idea was in opposition to both the yeomanry as a policing force and continental European gendarmes or civil guards. But bringing in the yeomanry was not perceived as our fellow citizens on horses with their sabres out, but normally as local gentry farmers being brought into the city.

QuoteThis may (or may not) have also something to do with the areas where you live. Instances where you'd call the cops may probably not happen that often in affluent neighborhoods, suburbs where houses stand far apart, or commuter sleeptowns where one spends most of one's time in a car. In places where there are homeless people with mental illness issues; or where you live in apartment buildings where the walls are thin and you are hearing things which suggest domestic violence, or where you discover a stash of drugs in the neighborhood park... Added to that the fact that the emergency number in the US is the single 911, and you have no way of controlling who shows up - usually the cops.
This is definitely the case - the other point is a lot of what you're talking about I wouldn't consider a police matter. So a homeless person with mental illness, or kids playing music loud are not crimes. There's nothing the police can do. You might get an anti-social behaviour order against them in the UK (which you can ask the police or council for), but you need one before the police have anything to enforce. But in general anti-social behaviour isn't criminal - it might be discouraged by "bobbies on the beat" patrolling, but it's not something you can really call the police for.

But all my time in London has been in fairly deprived areas - some of the poorest in the country - I've just never seen anything that I'd call the police for. Never found a stash of drugs - though plenty of evidence of drug use. Never heard or seen anything that makes me think there's domestic violence. The closest has been theft - so someone came into my local Co-op for example and shoved past the shop assistant to grab as many bottles of spirits as they could and then ran out. But that happened very quickly and the security guy was already calling the police by the time I'd noticed (I was in an aisle and only realised when I saw the guy running away).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

I would make the same point about the military though - they are part of the public as well.  They're not some foreign occupying force - they're fellow citizens.

Modern militaries are citizen-soldiers, yes - part of the public at large.  But they are not civilians, and the law (including international law) treats military powers (including military justice) entirely differently than it does civilian powers and civilian justice.

The fact that soldiers are citizens/part of the public but not civilians seems unrelated to the argument that police are citizens but not civilians and are not part of the public.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 15, 2021, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 11:55:27 AM
This is definitely the case - the other point is a lot of what you're talking about I wouldn't consider a police matter. So a homeless person with mental illness, or kids playing music loud are not crimes. There's nothing the police can do. You might get an anti-social behaviour order against them in the UK (which you can ask the police or council for), but you need one before the police have anything to enforce. But in general anti-social behaviour isn't criminal - it might be discouraged by "bobbies on the beat" patrolling, but it's not something you can really call the police for.
You don't have the concept of quality of life violations?  Surely it's more than just frowned upon to blast music at 120 dB in a residential neighborhood at 4 in the morning.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2021, 11:38:34 AM
One other confusing part to this is that state police are typically called troopers, and their stations are called barracks.  Some, like New Jersey State Police, also wear a uniform that looks distinctly military in nature.

Trooper traditionally meant a mounted soldier.  I would assume that state police arose from mounted police, since they have to patrol a large area.  Thus, they are "troopers."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 12:05:13 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 11:17:31 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2021, 09:55:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

The public are not given the powers of the police.  The reason the police are given those special powers is so they are not exercised by the public - ie vigilante justice

Except that the police is a way more recent innovation than the military, and grew out, not of the military, but of the justice system. Justice is reputed to be delivered by your peers: police officers were created either as special-duty judges or as especially empowered citizens, doing, as RH mentioned, what every citizen was expected to do - not enact justice (that was never in play), but arrest criminals and reputed criminals and bring them, literally, to justice. The rules that used to govern police work were deemed to emerge from the simple recognition that these were subjects / citizens therefore afforded the protection of the sovereign, and reputed to have been going about their business normally. The military was deployed when that presumption was broken: rebellions, insurrections. It's a major symbolic rupture. If it no longer matters, the US may as well disband its police force and have its troops patrol its cities.

The civilian / military divide is much more fundamental, than the one civilian / police. That we collectively see less and less distinction between the two should give us pause.

Well when you speak of something growing out of the justice system, rather than the military, it is a bit of an artificial distinction the further back one goes.  Our justice system can be traced back to 1066.  In fact our former Chief Justice was often fond of referring to the Courts William set up in her speeches imploring today's politicians to provide better access to justice.  The courts of the Crown were obviously backed by the power of the crown to enforce its will (the military).   

In our system justice has never been something which has been delivered by peers.  It has always been the jurisdiction of the crown and then the state.  We might be judged by our peers (where a jury is available) but it is always the state/crown - through the judiciary it appoints - that decides what it to be done once verdict is rendered.

As I already noted in response to Richard's post, the limited powers of citizens to arrest is a good illustration of the difference between the powers of the state, exercised by its agents the police, and that of a citizen.

The last thing, is your analysis ignores that fact that in Canada especially the police evolved from and served a similar role as the military.  To this day the RCMP has some interaction and duties related to the military.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2021, 12:00:11 PM
You don't have the concept of quality of life violations?  Surely it's more than just frowned upon to blast music at 120 dB in a residential neighborhood at 4 in the morning.
But it's normally not a crime. You can get an anti-social beahviour order (asbo) which is a court order for that person not to play music at certain levels or banning youths from gathering in a certain spot. If there's an asbo then the police can go round because they're in breach of a court order. And you can get an asbo through the police or the council. But you can't just call the police because someone's doing something you don't like (and you would not be a priority v real crimes). The best you could get out of it is the police having a word.

This has been an issue - that people had issues that weren't technically crimes but affected their quality of life and the police couldn't do anything about them. It's why Blair introduced asbos in the first place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 12:09:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 11:34:58 AMI quibble with a historian at my own peril,

FEAR ME MORTAL

Ahem.

Quotebut you could say the same thing about the military.  The idea of a standing professional army is quite recent - for most of history soldiers were leveed when necessary and disbanded once the conflict was over.

This is true. But the emergence of the category of "military" as an heuristic concept happens precisely at the same time when "proto-police" emerges: late 17th century. Before, you certainly had soldiers, and armies but they weren't thought as "military" - a kind of unifying term which speaks of a similar condition. In these circumstances, military draws on a much older tradition, and it becomes a lot more revealing that police isn't folded into that tradition. Quite the contrary. It is conceived, from the start, as something fundamentally different. (And they weren't armed either). To simplify a bit: armies and soliders receive their designation, and specificity, as "military" precisely at the time when other forms of social constraints are being devised.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 12:22:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 12:05:13 PMWell when you speak of something growing out of the justice system, rather than the military, it is a bit of an artificial distinction the further back one goes.  Our justice system can be traced back to 1066.  In fact our former Chief Justice was often fond of referring to the Courts William set up in her speeches imploring today's politicians to provide better access to justice.  The courts of the Crown were obviously backed by the power of the crown to enforce its will (the military). 

But that's not great history, to put it mildly. It's rhetorical use of history for court purposes, which is legitimate, but not good conceptual or intellectual history. The division between military and civilian meant nothing in the Middle Ages. It was not an operative distinction. But it does mean something in the 18th century, the moment of the creation of the notion of "police". Our contemporary institutions draw much more from the 18th century than they do from the 11th century.  Because the justice of the 11th century answers to a society that is organized in ways that are entirely foreign to our own, where force is exercised by armed gentry and freemen who root in such an exercise their status, where justice is constituted collectively from timeless custom rather than simply issued by royal fiat.

QuoteIn our system justice has never been something which has been delivered by peers.
Peers as in, people who are united in their status as subjects of the sovereign. That status may well have been different (i.e., justice for the lords, justice for the peasants, justice for the Irish). And while it may have been conducted in the name of the king, much of the daily exercise of justice was intensely local. Again, the concept of the military was created precisely to remove certain people, certain operations, certain offenses, from the "normal" considerations - including considerations of status, or residence.

QuoteThe last thing, is your analysis ignores that fact that in Canada especially the police evolved from and served a similar role as the military.  To this day the RCMP has some interaction and duties related to the military.

Yes, RCMP, French Gendarmerie, Italian Carabinieri were created as a hybrid, which may have something to do with their institution at times of intense social strife and revolutionary fervor, or to be able to deploy more lethal force against First Nations.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2021, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 12:05:13 PM
Well when you speak of something growing out of the justice system, rather than the military, it is a bit of an artificial distinction the further back one goes.  Our justice system can be traced back to 1066.  In fact our former Chief Justice was often fond of referring to the Courts William set up in her speeches imploring today's politicians to provide better access to justice.  The courts of the Crown were obviously backed by the power of the crown to enforce its will (the military).   

The medieval precedents aren't very helpful as it is difficult to talk about our modern concept of a civilian-military distinction c. 1066.
In most of the medieval period in England, service and enforcement of process for the royal courts was under the responsibility of the county sheriff.  I don't think it makes much sense to conceptualize the sheriff as a "military" official.
The idea of a state military as an identifiable, autonomous organization really doesn't rise until pretty deep into the early modern period.

The point that I believe grumbler has been making is that there the formal distinction between military and civilian is most significant under present day concepts of international law and custom, in in particular the laws of war. His point -which I believe is correct - is that police forces of the type we are talking about are typically considered to be on the civilian side in that context and rightfully so.  There are paramilitary type organizations which can blur the line but I would the US would not reach the point where local police forces have to considered paramilitaries of that type.

Then Oex makes the different point about the historical origins of professional police forces in the 19th century in the context of the distinction between civilian justice and military operation as it existed at that time.  The medieval context is very different and thus does not refute that point.

EDIT: seems like I overlapped a bit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 12:38:44 PM
All I know is that for almost 20 years I've been practicing criminal law, and for that entire time witnesses have been divided into two categories: police and civilians.

On the rare occasions I would call a military officer I would have probably categorized them as a civilian - unless they were Military Police (I did occasionally get MP investigated files from CFB Cold Lake or CFB Wainwright).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:40:01 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 11:08:56 AM
And, in fact, this also leads to a different facet of the same problem: people who live in affluent, manicured spaces, are scared of these things and of the "outsiders" that bring them - usually associated with black people and threat. And these people know cops are on *their* side, are helpful to them. Hence, all these calls to remove black families picnicking in municipal parks; to denounce a black jogger; to call about a robbery which turns out to be someone getting back to their own place. The Central Park lady knew this, and knew the black man she screamed at knew this. She knew the power of the threat she  wielded when she threatened to call the cops, and knew it could lead to way more tragic consequence than it ever could for her.

Wait people in fancy neighborhoods hang out in municipal parks? I mean I am not questioning the idea that busybody assholes do not live in all neighborhoods but why are you using municipal parks as an example? The fancy people do not go there and mix with the peasants.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:40:01 PM
Wait people in fancy neighborhoods hang out in municipal parks? I mean I am not questioning the idea that busybody assholes do not live in all neighborhoods but why are you using municipal parks as an example? The fancy people do not go there and mix with the peasants.
Of course they do - they normally have particularly nice parks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:48:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:40:01 PM
Wait people in fancy neighborhoods hang out in municipal parks? I mean I am not questioning the idea that busybody assholes do not live in all neighborhoods but why are you using municipal parks as an example? The fancy people do not go there and mix with the peasants.
Of course they do - they normally have particularly nice parks.

Sure. But they will be gated off and paid for by HoA fees or something. The municipal park? I mean you expect to see the unwashed masses there. Especially at a place like Central Park. If you were going to call the NYPD on every brown skinned person you would be doing nothing but.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 01:03:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:40:01 PM
Wait people in fancy neighborhoods hang out in municipal parks? I mean I am not questioning the idea that busybody assholes do not live in all neighborhoods but why are you using municipal parks as an example? The fancy people do not go there and mix with the peasants.

I am using that case, as it has actually happened - and more than once. In fact, I stumbled upon these cases googling for the one I remembered more vividly, from Louisiana (and which I haven't found yet).

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cookout-after-cops-called-over-black-bbq_n_5af86368e4b00d7e4c1b9caf

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/white-woman-who-called-police-on-black-man-bird-watching-in-central-park-has-been-fired-1.4954755

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-svitlana-from-janae-brown-park-viral-video-20200603-z3y3motmbfforb7gfk2e4yz6la-story.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-man-calls-police-on-black-family-using-neighborhood-pool
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 01:07:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:48:59 PM
Sure. But they will be gated off and paid for by HoA fees or something. The municipal park? I mean you expect to see the unwashed masses there. Especially at a place like Central Park. If you were going to call the NYPD on every brown skinned person you would be doing nothing but.
This may just be a big US-UK difference. Poshos definitely use parks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 01:10:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
Also isn't it the entire ideal (however much we might miss it) - the public are the police and the police are the public. They're not a paramilitary force.

I would make the same point about the military though - they are part of the public as well.  They're not some foreign occupying force - they're fellow citizens.

Modern militaries are citizen-soldiers, yes - part of the public at large.  But they are not civilians, and the law (including international law) treats military powers (including military justice) entirely differently than it does civilian powers and civilian justice.

The fact that soldiers are citizens/part of the public but not civilians seems unrelated to the argument that police are citizens but not civilians and are not part of the public.

I don't recall arguing that police were not a part of the public they serve.


I wonder if this is just a matter of context.  You tend to look at the question from a more military perspective I would assume, given your own history.  And yes if looking at a military conflict you would include police as civilians - they're clearly not combatants.  But in other situations (like my anecdote about witnesses above) members of the military might well be classified as civilians.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2021, 01:35:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:48:59 PM
Sure. But they will be gated off and paid for by HoA fees or something. The municipal park? I mean you expect to see the unwashed masses there. Especially at a place like Central Park. If you were going to call the NYPD on every brown skinned person you would be doing nothing but.

The only gated park in NYC IIRC is Gramercy Park - which is very small and available only to the surrounding residents. It's a very nice area with pricey apartments but most super-rich people don't live anywhere near there but rather around Central Park.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 01:41:21 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2021, 01:35:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:48:59 PM
Sure. But they will be gated off and paid for by HoA fees or something. The municipal park? I mean you expect to see the unwashed masses there. Especially at a place like Central Park. If you were going to call the NYPD on every brown skinned person you would be doing nothing but.

The only gated park in NYC IIRC is Gramercy Park - which is very small and available only to the surrounding residents. It's a very nice area with pricey apartments but most super-rich people don't live anywhere near there but rather around Central Park.

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 15, 2021, 01:07:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:48:59 PM
Sure. But they will be gated off and paid for by HoA fees or something. The municipal park? I mean you expect to see the unwashed masses there. Especially at a place like Central Park. If you were going to call the NYPD on every brown skinned person you would be doing nothing but.
This may just be a big US-UK difference. Poshos definitely use parks.

Yeah but the claim was that the rich are terrified of blacks invading their fancy spaces, which is probably true. But surely Central Park is not one of those spaces. Everybody is in central Park. The same with fancy people going to Zilker Park in Austin. Thousands of people are there every day. Black people showing up there is not going to endanger your mansion on Lady Bird Lake.

So I was confused by using that as an example of how the rich are likely to call the cops on invading poors. You expect to see poors at Central Park.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 01:41:21 PM
So I was confused by using that as an example of how the rich are likely to call the cops on invading poors.

That wasn't my claim. Rather, they call the cops on people they *think* do not belong, i.e., black people. Whether or not those black people are part of the community.

I am not talking about Central Park - although clearly this has happened in Central Park. I was thinking of the smaller parks in the midst of residential neighborhoods - where you have municipal facilities, like tennis courts, pools, picnic tables, etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 01:52:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 01:03:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 12:40:01 PM
Wait people in fancy neighborhoods hang out in municipal parks? I mean I am not questioning the idea that busybody assholes do not live in all neighborhoods but why are you using municipal parks as an example? The fancy people do not go there and mix with the peasants.

I am using that case, as it has actually happened - and more than once. In fact, I stumbled upon these cases googling for the one I remembered more vividly, from Louisiana (and which I haven't found yet).

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cookout-after-cops-called-over-black-bbq_n_5af86368e4b00d7e4c1b9caf

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/white-woman-who-called-police-on-black-man-bird-watching-in-central-park-has-been-fired-1.4954755

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-svitlana-from-janae-brown-park-viral-video-20200603-z3y3motmbfforb7gfk2e4yz6la-story.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-man-calls-police-on-black-family-using-neighborhood-pool

Ok but the claim was not that white people do this but that people in fancy neighborhoods do this because they fear people coming into their neighborhoods. The latter two links certainly apply to this claim. I don't see how the others do unless all white people, even unidentified ones, are assumed to be rich people from fancy neighborhoods.

By the way three of those people seem to have gotten pretty severe blowback from those incidents so their assumption the institutions would back them up seems pretty unfounded.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 01:57:21 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 01:46:43 PM

That wasn't my claim.

It wasn't? But you said:

QuoteAnd, in fact, this also leads to a different facet of the same problem: people who live in affluent, manicured spaces, are scared of these things and of the "outsiders" that bring them - usually associated with black people and threat.

So "outsiders" coming into their fancy spaces.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 02:03:30 PM
Yes. They are afraid of outsiders, which they identify as black people, and thus call cops on black people using these spaces. I am not expecting white racists to conduct a thorough sociological survey of the people they denounce to cops. I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, nor why it would matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 02:06:51 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 02:03:30 PM
Yes. They are afraid of outsiders, which they identify as black people, and thus call cops on black people using these spaces. I am not expecting white racists to conduct a thorough sociological survey of the people they denounce to cops. I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, nor why it would matter.

Ok so you are making a claim. That fancy people are more likely to call the cops on black people than non-fancy people. Then to demonstrate this you don't provide data but instead you bring up a few anecdotes that do not even demonstrate the premise. Like you are just depending on the already existing prejudice of the audience. I don't like the rich as much as the next person but that seems pretty lazy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 02:41:13 PM
WTF are you talking about.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 12:22:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 12:05:13 PMWell when you speak of something growing out of the justice system, rather than the military, it is a bit of an artificial distinction the further back one goes.  Our justice system can be traced back to 1066.  In fact our former Chief Justice was often fond of referring to the Courts William set up in her speeches imploring today's politicians to provide better access to justice.  The courts of the Crown were obviously backed by the power of the crown to enforce its will (the military). 

But that's not great history, to put it mildly. It's rhetorical use of history for court purposes, which is legitimate, but not good conceptual or intellectual history. The division between military and civilian meant nothing in the Middle Ages. It was not an operative distinction. But it does mean something in the 18th century, the moment of the creation of the notion of "police". Our contemporary institutions draw much more from the 18th century than they do from the 11th century.  Because the justice of the 11th century answers to a society that is organized in ways that are entirely foreign to our own, where force is exercised by armed gentry and freemen who root in such an exercise their status, where justice is constituted collectively from timeless custom rather than simply issued by royal fiat.

QuoteIn our system justice has never been something which has been delivered by peers.
Peers as in, people who are united in their status as subjects of the sovereign. That status may well have been different (i.e., justice for the lords, justice for the peasants, justice for the Irish). And while it may have been conducted in the name of the king, much of the daily exercise of justice was intensely local. Again, the concept of the military was created precisely to remove certain people, certain operations, certain offenses, from the "normal" considerations - including considerations of status, or residence.

QuoteThe last thing, is your analysis ignores that fact that in Canada especially the police evolved from and served a similar role as the military.  To this day the RCMP has some interaction and duties related to the military.

Yes, RCMP, French Gendarmerie, Italian Carabinieri were created as a hybrid, which may have something to do with their institution at times of intense social strife and revolutionary fervor, or to be able to deploy more lethal force against First Nations.

To your last point first, whatever the societal context when the RCMP was created - it remains today a hybrid force.  And a good example of the artificial boundary you are creating.  Further to that point, reflect on when the military was called in to "police" the Oka crisis.

To your first point, the development of our law goes back well before the 18th century and it is quite arbitrary to make that a cut off date for the analysis.  Especially for a common law jurisdiction.  I suspect your views are highly influenced by the development of the Napoleonic code and its antecedents.  For common law jurisdictions the story is very different.  As just one example, our notion that an employee and employer must give the other notice when terminating an employment contract dates back to the black death when workers were in short supply and were walking off the job to take on better terms.  These days it is often thought of as an employer's obligation, but the obligation of the employee still exists at common law.

Back in the time before time (the 90s) Languish had a discussion about the book Law and Revolution which is a great source for common law developments that are still with us to day which occurred in the 11th and 12th centuries.

I will forgive you your "bad history" comment as I realize your work is not related to the development of the English legal tradition.

Lasty, in relation to your comment about justice being intensely local - that again I think betrays a lack of understanding of the development of the English common law.  The point of referring back to the courts set up by William, is that for the first time in England, there was a centralized judiciary which operated on an assize system - ie the judges were not based in the community but travelled (in place of the crown).  It was through this innovation that the common law developed.  This group of judges began to develop common legal principles which they governed how they would decide the cases brought before them.  Consistency was developed.  It was no longer based on a peer system of justice where the community decided.  It was now the King's justice.  It was not long ago that we still called our highest trial courts "the Court of Kings/Queens Bench".  I think they still might do so in England?  We still refer to Queens/Kings Counsel as a high honour one can be granted.  You even get to wear special robes in court with that designation.

I could go on, but the point is, there is much that is lost if you stop at the 18th century.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 02:54:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2021, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 12:05:13 PM
Well when you speak of something growing out of the justice system, rather than the military, it is a bit of an artificial distinction the further back one goes.  Our justice system can be traced back to 1066.  In fact our former Chief Justice was often fond of referring to the Courts William set up in her speeches imploring today's politicians to provide better access to justice.  The courts of the Crown were obviously backed by the power of the crown to enforce its will (the military).   

The medieval precedents aren't very helpful as it is difficult to talk about our modern concept of a civilian-military distinction c. 1066.
In most of the medieval period in England, service and enforcement of process for the royal courts was under the responsibility of the county sheriff.  I don't think it makes much sense to conceptualize the sheriff as a "military" official.
The idea of a state military as an identifiable, autonomous organization really doesn't rise until pretty deep into the early modern period.

The point that I believe grumbler has been making is that there the formal distinction between military and civilian is most significant under present day concepts of international law and custom, in in particular the laws of war. His point -which I believe is correct - is that police forces of the type we are talking about are typically considered to be on the civilian side in that context and rightfully so.  There are paramilitary type organizations which can blur the line but I would the US would not reach the point where local police forces have to considered paramilitaries of that type.

Then Oex makes the different point about the historical origins of professional police forces in the 19th century in the context of the distinction between civilian justice and military operation as it existed at that time.  The medieval context is very different and thus does not refute that point.

EDIT: seems like I overlapped a bit.

Grumbler's argument creates a narrow definition and ignores the powers that are given to non military personal.  It also ignores the overlap between powers given to police and powers given to the military and particularly in the Canadian context with the RCMP.  The US may be a special case and so perhaps Grumbler's narrow definition works in your country.  But it is not universally applicable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 06:20:52 PM
I have CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the police / civilian divide.

My kids are building with Lego.  I just heard them say that they've built some houses for the police, so now they should build some houses for civilians. :lol: :contract:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2021, 06:35:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 06:20:52 PM
I have CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the police / civilian divide.

My kids are building with Lego.  I just heard them say that they've built some houses for the police, so now they should build some houses for civilians. :lol: :contract:

Wrong thread.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 15, 2021, 06:42:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 06:20:52 PM
I have CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the police / civilian divide.

My kids are building with Lego.  I just heard them say that they've built some houses for the police, so now they should build some houses for civilians. :lol: :contract:

Shocking that your children would take their cue from you and reflect your world view back to you at such a young age.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on April 15, 2021, 07:05:42 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 15, 2021, 06:42:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2021, 06:20:52 PM
I have CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the police / civilian divide.

My kids are building with Lego.  I just heard them say that they've built some houses for the police, so now they should build some houses for civilians. :lol: :contract:

Shocking that your children would take their cue from you and reflect your world view back to you at such a young age.

I was going to say it wasn't surprising that Beeb holds the same positions as children, but I like yours more.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 07:28:44 PM
CC's argument creates a narrow definition and ignores the the fact that many powers that are given to non military personal.  It also invents an overlap between powers given to police and powers given to the military and particularly in the Canadian context with the RCMP.  The RCMP can be taken into military service, just as the US Coast Guard can be taken into military service, or the National Guard, etc.  The US is not a special case and so perhaps CC's narrow definition doesn't really work in any country.  His narrow definition  is certainly not universally applicable.  It's not even narrowly applicable, except in the semantic sense that some sources claim some non-civilian-non-military status for police and some undefined other groups with "powers" not possessed by the populace at large.  CC's narrow definition of "civilian" lacks any semblance of intellectual rigor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2021, 07:43:55 PM
13 year old boy shot dead immediately after complying with an order for hands up.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1382822882858860547
Quote from: Julian CastroChicago PD shot Adam Toledo with his hands in the air instantaneously after ordering him to do so—then lied about it.

They executed Adam, a boy who was not yet in high school.

Indict this officer, then pass a national use of force standard immediately.


QuoteChicago police kill Black people at a rate 22x higher than white people and kill Latinx people at a rate 6x higher. This is the most extreme racial disparity in fatal police violence of any major city. The only place that comes close is Minneapolis. http://mappingpoliceviolence.org

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1382818394508992517
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2021, 08:25:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2021, 07:43:55 PM
13 year old boy shot dead immediately after complying with an order for hands up.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1382822882858860547
Quote from: Julian CastroChicago PD shot Adam Toledo with his hands in the air instantaneously after ordering him to do so—then lied about it.

They executed Adam, a boy who was not yet in high school.

Indict this officer, then pass a national use of force standard immediately.




QuoteChicago police kill Black people at a rate 22x higher than white people and kill Latinx people at a rate 6x higher. This is the most extreme racial disparity in fatal police violence of any major city. The only place that comes close is Minneapolis. http://mappingpoliceviolence.org

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1382818394508992517

Adam Toledo had a gun in his right hand when he turned towards the officer who shot him.  Some dude on twitter calling it an "execution" doesn't make it one.

It's a tragedy, but it's not at all clear that the police officer wasn't justified in shooting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2021, 08:55:18 PM
Prosecutor has walked back on that detail. And I didn't see it in the footage.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutor-who-said-adam-toledo-had-gun-in-his-hand-not-fully-informed/amp/
Quote
But now, in response to a WGN Investigates inquiry, the state's attorney's office says the detail about Adam having a gun in his hand the moment he was shot was inaccurate.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2021-04/15/20/asset/385d06f95512/sub-buzz-14954-1618517058-50.png?crop=976%3A546%3B0%2C0&downsize=400:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 02:41:13 PM
WTF are you talking about.

You launched a broad attack on a whole group of people. I don't even necessarily am saying this is wrong, but the very least you should provide in making such a broad attack is having some information like a disproportionate amount of calls to the police are made by people from fancy neighborhoods. Or at least if you are going to provide an anecdote have the decency to at least have one that is what you are claiming. I think even rich assholes deserve at least that much.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 15, 2021, 09:48:30 PM
I think you are misunderstanding him- the problem is white people, not rich people...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 15, 2021, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2021, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 15, 2021, 02:41:13 PM
WTF are you talking about.

You launched a broad attack on a whole group of people. I don't even necessarily am saying this is wrong, but the very least you should provide in making such a broad attack is having some information like a disproportionate amount of calls to the police are made by people from fancy neighborhoods. Or at least if you are going to provide an anecdote have the decency to at least have one that is what you are claiming. I think even rich assholes deserve at least that much.

From my reading, that whole thing was you completely missing Oex's point, focusing on a random detail and deciding that was the main point and arguing vehemently against something that mostly existed in your head.

... but I'm sure someone will be along to say you're completely right at any minute.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 16, 2021, 12:15:20 AM
What a stat
QuoteFive years ago, when the Guardian counted police killings, it reported that, "in the first 24 days of 2015, police in the US fatally shot more people than police did in England and Wales, combined, over the past 24 years."
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/20/the-invention-of-the-police?utm_campaign=falcon&utm_medium=social&utm_brand=tny&mbid=social_twitter&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=twitter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 01:27:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zv2AvLi7KY

Here's the body cam footage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 16, 2021, 06:11:06 AM
I don't see a gun in his hand. Even if he had one, his hands were up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malicious Intent on April 16, 2021, 06:23:53 AM
Saw some footage from a static security cam from another angle. Looked like he quickly dropped something behind the wall, then turned around and raised his hands. Judging from body cam footage after the shot, it may have been a gun.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56768217 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56768217)

Edit:  It's also in Yi's link.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:52:59 AM
Yeah, he was carrying a gun and dropped it just moments before the cop fired.  The shooting was clearly unnecessary, but, as I said before, it's not at all clear that the police officer wasn't justified in shooting based on what he could see at the time (lacking slo-mo capability).

A tragedy, but not necessarily a crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2021, 07:06:00 AM
What was the point of asking him to put his hands up if the plan was to shoot anyway?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 16, 2021, 07:19:28 AM
There may not have been a lot of planning done during the chase of an armed suspect.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on April 16, 2021, 08:19:31 AM
Anyone seen the video of  shooting dead of the man in the hospital, the guy was found to be conceal carrying a gun?

Was it really necessary to fire that many shots, possible more than the police have fired in UK over the last year.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 08:48:54 AM
Police emptying their magazines is a symptom of the problem.  In the Briana Taylor case, police fired 32 rounds, and only 6 were fired by the officer in the apartment (who had himself been shot).  The other 26 shots were fired blindly by officers outside the apartment (and, indeed, may have shot the officer who was hit).  That's way to much firepower to be deployed outside 'Nam.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 16, 2021, 09:12:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2021, 07:06:00 AM
What was the point of asking him to put his hands up if the plan was to shoot anyway?
Yeah - I always thought the point of shouting hands up or whatever was so people could drop weapons and show they're not going to use them so don't shoot.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 16, 2021, 09:30:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 02:51:36 PM
Lasty, in relation to your comment about justice being intensely local - that again I think betrays a lack of understanding of the development of the English common law.  The point of referring back to the courts set up by William, is that for the first time in England, there was a centralized judiciary which operated on an assize system - ie the judges were not based in the community but travelled (in place of the crown).  It was through this innovation that the common law developed.  This group of judges began to develop common legal principles which they governed how they would decide the cases brought before them.  Consistency was developed.  It was no longer based on a peer system of justice where the community decided.  It was now the King's justice.  It was not long ago that we still called our highest trial courts "the Court of Kings/Queens Bench".  I think they still might do so in England?  We still refer to Queens/Kings Counsel as a high honour one can be granted.  You even get to wear special robes in court with that designation.

This is conflating a lot of historical developments into a much cleaner - and anachronistic narrative.  What we understand as common law today has little to do with the kind of justice being practiced in the era of William the Conqueror.  William was no ambitious legal reformer and the Anglo-Saxon legal system was basically left in place and then supplemented by new institutions as needed. The "common law" then was just customary law. Very little was written down and no one was thinking about putting in place what we would consider a common law system of adjudication.  At some point Henry I had Anglo-Saxon "law codes" (really just compilations of customary law) translated into Latin, although it can be questioned to what extent this was actually used in dispensing justice.

Medieval kings moved around all the time and didn't stay in a fixed capital.  So the origin of royal circuit courts in England is just the King and his retainers moving about the countryside and taking care of business wherever they were.  Kings might also hold a major council assembly that was modeled after the Anglo-Saxon witan. If an issue arose that warranted royal attention arose somewhere else from where the King happened to be, then a trusted retainer could be sent to deal with it. The main purpose of a royal agent visting a location was to keep an eye out for local trouble and assert the king's interest; if that involved intervening in some local disputes that were of potential interest to the Crown, so be it.  Some counties had permanent sheriffs appointed by the King to perform these functions; that of course is another Anglo-Saxon institution that the Norman kings adopted for their use. This is all a far cry from the late medieval common law courts and institutions.

The system of "general eyres" isn't set up until Henry II reign and even then it's really just formalizing a system where royal officials travel to other regions of the country to keep an eye on royal interests and judge certain disputes (including capital crimes), usually applying some kind of customary law.  It's also probably around this time that some kind of permanent judicial body starts sitting in Westminster.

It is only gradually and over time that justices receive more formal training, that written records are kept, and that institutions develop such that by the late middle ages the common law institutions and practices of the 18th century are reasonably identifiable.  It is Whiggish historians that then project this development back in time to create a narrative of teleological, directed progress as opposed to a series of improvisations that happened to coalesce into something not originally designed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 10:01:36 AM
I think the answer to the question of whether cops are "civilians" is that both sides of the debate are right.

In colloquial use, police are not "civilians" (they often wear a uniform and carry an identity that allows them certain powers and duties that non-cops lack).

However, under the Geneva Conventions, cops are "civilians". Only members of the armed forces are not. The point is that under these conventions, "civilians" have a different legal status - for the purposes of war and peace: enemy powers have certain obligations towards them, if they join in attacks on soldiers this has a particular legal impact, etc.

In other words, it depends on the context. The term implies a legal distinction, generally that the person known as a "civilian" is not authorized to use force in the same way as a non-civilian, and is consequently owed duties of good treatment and protection by non-civilians ... but the context is different. A policeman who is not a member of the armed forces is a "civilian" for purposes of war and peace, and a "non-civilian" in colloquial use in his or her own society, when going about their duties.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:28:55 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 16, 2021, 09:30:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 15, 2021, 02:51:36 PM
Lasty, in relation to your comment about justice being intensely local - that again I think betrays a lack of understanding of the development of the English common law.  The point of referring back to the courts set up by William, is that for the first time in England, there was a centralized judiciary which operated on an assize system - ie the judges were not based in the community but travelled (in place of the crown).  It was through this innovation that the common law developed.  This group of judges began to develop common legal principles which they governed how they would decide the cases brought before them.  Consistency was developed.  It was no longer based on a peer system of justice where the community decided.  It was now the King's justice.  It was not long ago that we still called our highest trial courts "the Court of Kings/Queens Bench".  I think they still might do so in England?  We still refer to Queens/Kings Counsel as a high honour one can be granted.  You even get to wear special robes in court with that designation.

This is conflating a lot of historical developments into a much cleaner - and anachronistic narrative.  What we understand as common law today has little to do with the kind of justice being practiced in the era of William the Conqueror.  William was no ambitious legal reformer and the Anglo-Saxon legal system was basically left in place and then supplemented by new institutions as needed. The "common law" then was just customary law. Very little was written down and no one was thinking about putting in place what we would consider a common law system of adjudication.  At some point Henry I had Anglo-Saxon "law codes" (really just compilations of customary law) translated into Latin, although it can be questioned to what extent this was actually used in dispensing justice.

Medieval kings moved around all the time and didn't stay in a fixed capital.  So the origin of royal circuit courts in England is just the King and his retainers moving about the countryside and taking care of business wherever they were.  Kings might also hold a major council assembly that was modeled after the Anglo-Saxon witan. If an issue arose that warranted royal attention arose somewhere else from where the King happened to be, then a trusted retainer could be sent to deal with it. The main purpose of a royal agent visting a location was to keep an eye out for local trouble and assert the king's interest; if that involved intervening in some local disputes that were of potential interest to the Crown, so be it.  Some counties had permanent sheriffs appointed by the King to perform these functions; that of course is another Anglo-Saxon institution that the Norman kings adopted for their use. This is all a far cry from the late medieval common law courts and institutions.

The system of "general eyres" isn't set up until Henry II reign and even then it's really just formalizing a system where royal officials travel to other regions of the country to keep an eye on royal interests and judge certain disputes (including capital crimes), usually applying some kind of customary law.  It's also probably around this time that some kind of permanent judicial body starts sitting in Westminster.

It is only gradually and over time that justices receive more formal training, that written records are kept, and that institutions develop such that by the late middle ages the common law institutions and practices of the 18th century are reasonably identifiable.  It is Whiggish historians that then project this development back in time to create a narrative of teleological, directed progress as opposed to a series of improvisations that happened to coalesce into something not originally designed.

It is trite to say that the development of the common law is a complex story.  I was responding to a claim that justice was an intensely local matter administered locally by local peers.  That is not accurate.

And yes, the original system moved in place of the king - that is exactly what I said  ;)

The point is justice was not dispensed by a local peer in a fixed location

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 10:01:36 AM
I think the answer to the question of whether cops are "civilians" is that both sides of the debate are right.

In colloquial use, police are not "civilians" (they often wear a uniform and carry an identity that allows them certain powers and duties that non-cops lack).

However, under the Geneva Conventions, cops are "civilians". Only members of the armed forces are not. The point is that under these conventions, "civilians" have a different legal status - for the purposes of war and peace: enemy powers have certain obligations towards them, if they join in attacks on soldiers this has a particular legal impact, etc.

In other words, it depends on the context. The term implies a legal distinction, generally that the person known as a "civilian" is not authorized to use force in the same way as a non-civilian, and is consequently owed duties of good treatment and protection by non-civilians ... but the context is different. A policeman who is not a member of the armed forces is a "civilian" for purposes of war and peace, and a "non-civilian" in colloquial use in his or her own society, when going about their duties.

I would agree that there are informal contexts in which people consider that there is a distinction between police and "civilians," especially among police themselves.  I also simply note that, for every reason some people agree with the police special pleading that they are not civilians, the same standards apply to all kinds of other groups.

And what are police, if not civilians and not military?  Some third category?  If so, what category and how is it defined.  Are firefighters part of the same category, or are they a fourth category?  What about off-duty firefighters?  Rent-a-cops?  Off-duty rent-a-cops?  Dogcatchers?  Boy Scouts?  Astronauts? On and on.

Nobody wants to be a mere civilian.  They want to feel special and different.  Better.  But wanting doesn't create its own reality.  And the reality is that, if police are not civilians, then almost nobody is a civilian. Everybody has a reason to consider themselves privileged.

And caving to a groups desire to be special and privileged creates resentment from the non-privileged and contempt from the privileged.  It is best avoided.  Police are civilians, like the policed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 11:37:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 11:27:27 AM
I would agree that there are informal contexts in which people consider that there is a distinction between police and "civilians," especially among police themselves.  I also simply note that, for every reason some people agree with the police special pleading that they are not civilians, the same standards apply to all kinds of other groups.

And what are police, if not civilians and not military?  Some third category?  If so, what category and how is it defined.  Are firefighters part of the same category, or are they a fourth category?  What about off-duty firefighters?  Rent-a-cops?  Off-duty rent-a-cops?  Dogcatchers?  Boy Scouts?  Astronauts? On and on.

Nobody wants to be a mere civilian.  They want to feel special and different.  Better.  But wanting doesn't create its own reality.  And the reality is that, if police are not civilians, then almost nobody is a civilian. Everybody has a reason to consider themselves privileged.

And caving to a groups desire to be special and privileged creates resentment from the non-privileged and contempt from the privileged.  It is best avoided.  Police are civilians, like the policed.

A few different points:

-you keep trying to argue that police<> civilians is some kind of special pleading, or informal association - but most actual definitions I can find for the word "civilian" excludes police

-what are police if not civilian or military?  They're, get ready for this, "police".  We don't need another word.

-where do you draw the line?  What about my original definition: uniforms, system of rank, hierarchical command structure.  So firemen meet all three.  The others do not.  (okay Boy Scouts obviously copies such a system, but as an organization for children I would say they don't count).

-what's so special about not being a civilian?  Wearing a uniform and taking orders doesn't make one special.  I think I on the other hand am kind of special - heck while they're technically framed as "requests" I get to order cops around all day.  And I am 100% a civilian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 16, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Catholic clergy have uniforms, system of rank, hierarchical command structure.  Most professional sports are organized in the same way.  The judiciary in many places satisfies that definition.  University professors (tweed for ordinary service, robes for formal occasions). Masonic lodges.   I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of others.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 16, 2021, 11:47:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 16, 2021, 07:19:28 AM
There may not have been a lot of planning done during the chase of an armed suspect.

Your cops need more training and a change in their SOP/ROE if they're going t be shooting folks with their hands up.

Their union president on CNN called the shooting 100% justified and actually heroic  :wacko:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 11:53:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 11:37:12 AM
A few different points:

-you keep trying to argue that police<> civilians is some kind of special pleading, or informal association - but most actual definitions I can find for the word "civilian" excludes police

I don't think that what you happen to find in some google search establishes an authoritative definition of the word, especially as  (1) many sources do not distinguish between police and other civilians, and (2) neither does the law.

Quote

-what are police if not civilian or military?  They're, get ready for this, "police".  We don't need another word.

-where do you draw the line?  What about my original definition: uniforms, system of rank, hierarchical command structure.  So firemen meet all three.  The others do not.  (okay Boy Scouts obviously copies such a system, but as an organization for children I would say they don't count). 

So we have civilians, military, police (but not plainclothes policemen, who don't have uniforms?), and firefighters.  Are airline pilots police, or firemen?  What about Secret Service Agents, FBI Agents (can't be police, which would invalidate your distinguishing feature of "uniforms"), plainclothes policemen, Fedex Deliverymen, Park Rangers, football players.. I could go on and on, but the point is clear:  your simple definition doesn't work, nor does the idea that there are categories equivalent to civilian and military that are part of neither.

Quote-what's so special about not being a civilian?  Wearing a uniform and taking orders doesn't make one special.  I think I on the other hand am kind of special - heck while they're technically framed as "requests" I get to order cops around all day.  And I am 100% a civilian.

Indeed, why don't cops accept that they are civilians?  What's so special about not being a civilian?

Do cops in, say, the UK or Spain or Germany distinguish between themselves and "civilians?"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 11:37:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 11:27:27 AM
I would agree that there are informal contexts in which people consider that there is a distinction between police and "civilians," especially among police themselves.  I also simply note that, for every reason some people agree with the police special pleading that they are not civilians, the same standards apply to all kinds of other groups.

And what are police, if not civilians and not military?  Some third category?  If so, what category and how is it defined.  Are firefighters part of the same category, or are they a fourth category?  What about off-duty firefighters?  Rent-a-cops?  Off-duty rent-a-cops?  Dogcatchers?  Boy Scouts?  Astronauts? On and on.

Nobody wants to be a mere civilian.  They want to feel special and different.  Better.  But wanting doesn't create its own reality.  And the reality is that, if police are not civilians, then almost nobody is a civilian. Everybody has a reason to consider themselves privileged.

And caving to a groups desire to be special and privileged creates resentment from the non-privileged and contempt from the privileged.  It is best avoided.  Police are civilians, like the policed.

A few different points:

-you keep trying to argue that police<> civilians is some kind of special pleading, or informal association - but most actual definitions I can find for the word "civilian" excludes police

-what are police if not civilian or military?  They're, get ready for this, "police".  We don't need another word.

-where do you draw the line?  What about my original definition: uniforms, system of rank, hierarchical command structure.  So firemen meet all three.  The others do not.  (okay Boy Scouts obviously copies such a system, but as an organization for children I would say they don't count).

-what's so special about not being a civilian?  Wearing a uniform and taking orders doesn't make one special.  I think I on the other hand am kind of special - heck while they're technically framed as "requests" I get to order cops around all day.  And I am 100% a civilian.

I would say it is the ability to use force during the course of their official duties, sanctioned by the state, in ways that non-police may not, that sets police apart.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 11:37:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 11:27:27 AM
I would agree that there are informal contexts in which people consider that there is a distinction between police and "civilians," especially among police themselves.  I also simply note that, for every reason some people agree with the police special pleading that they are not civilians, the same standards apply to all kinds of other groups.

And what are police, if not civilians and not military?  Some third category?  If so, what category and how is it defined.  Are firefighters part of the same category, or are they a fourth category?  What about off-duty firefighters?  Rent-a-cops?  Off-duty rent-a-cops?  Dogcatchers?  Boy Scouts?  Astronauts? On and on.

Nobody wants to be a mere civilian.  They want to feel special and different.  Better.  But wanting doesn't create its own reality.  And the reality is that, if police are not civilians, then almost nobody is a civilian. Everybody has a reason to consider themselves privileged.

And caving to a groups desire to be special and privileged creates resentment from the non-privileged and contempt from the privileged.  It is best avoided.  Police are civilians, like the policed.

A few different points:

-you keep trying to argue that police<> civilians is some kind of special pleading, or informal association - but most actual definitions I can find for the word "civilian" excludes police

-what are police if not civilian or military?  They're, get ready for this, "police".  We don't need another word.

-where do you draw the line?  What about my original definition: uniforms, system of rank, hierarchical command structure.  So firemen meet all three.  The others do not.  (okay Boy Scouts obviously copies such a system, but as an organization for children I would say they don't count).

-what's so special about not being a civilian?  Wearing a uniform and taking orders doesn't make one special.  I think I on the other hand am kind of special - heck while they're technically framed as "requests" I get to order cops around all day.  And I am 100% a civilian.

I would say it is the ability to use force during the course of their official duties, sanctioned by the state, in ways that non-police may not, that sets police apart.

I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 12:03:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 16, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Catholic clergy have uniforms, system of rank, hierarchical command structure.  Most professional sports are organized in the same way.  The judiciary in many places satisfies that definition.  University professors (tweed for ordinary service, robes for formal occasions). Masonic lodges.   I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of others.

Again, I think what distinguishes police is the sanctioned ability to use force against others under certain circumstances, in ways non-police may not, that sets them apart.

Indeed, that distinguishing feature is the very reason for this thread - the use (and abuse) of this sanction by police, the extent of the circumstances under which the use of force is actually justified (one argument being that the sanction is not subject to sufficiently stringent conditions, leading to trigger-happy cops), etc.

Catholic clergy and University Professors no doubt commit many abuses against others, but gunning people down is usually not among them - in part because they are not expected to occasionally have to use force in the course of their duties (although knowing some undergraduates ... 😉).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
I would say it is the ability to use force during the course of their official duties, sanctioned by the state, in ways that non-police may not, that sets police apart.

They certainly have use of force powers, as I noted when I brought up the issue.  But airline pilots have the ability to pilot commercial aircraft during the course of their official duties, sanctioned by the state, in ways that non-airline-pilots may not.  How are they not set apart from police, firefighters, civilians, military, and boy scouts?

And Secret Service agents have the ability to use force during the course of their official duties, sanctioned by the state, in ways that non-police-non-secret-service persons may not.  Are they police, civilians, firefighters, military, boy scouts, or a new category?

I fail to see either the logic or the utility of creating a category exclusively for the police and separate from civilians and military (which are part of customary international law and in US laws).  I can see how it can lead to pernicious attitudes from both police and non-police, but I see no positive effects.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting.

That's because lots of groups have "special powers" and no one can articulate why the police special powers are super-special.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 16, 2021, 12:23:44 PM
FWIW, I think Secret Service agents are clearly a type of police.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 12:27:20 PM
Yeah what's the argument that the Secret Service aren't police (and hence not civilians)?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 16, 2021, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 16, 2021, 12:23:44 PM
FWIW, I think Secret Service agents are clearly a type of police.

Secret police?  :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 16, 2021, 12:38:36 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 15, 2021, 10:00:00 PMFrom my reading, that whole thing was you completely missing Oex's point, focusing on a random detail and deciding that was the main point and arguing vehemently against something that mostly existed in your head.

... but I'm sure someone will be along to say you're completely right at any minute.

Pretty much, yeah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 16, 2021, 12:43:18 PM
Well nobody is perfect. I can only have what is in my head and what I read on the screen, I don't have direct access to what is in other heads or what others might read into something.

He stated that these people are like this. I need more than that to think that is a fair characterization. He did not qualify that in any way. But it is a minor thing that I did not anticipate would go on for this long of a discussion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 16, 2021, 12:43:44 PM
A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, defending it with his life. A civilian does not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
In all of these arguments about police vs. civilian, I cannot help but think that it sounds like, when one boils it all down to some kind of root cause for the existence of the distinction, is simply the desire for that distinction to exist...whether it is necessary or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 16, 2021, 12:55:38 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 16, 2021, 12:03:59 PM
Again, I think what distinguishes police is the sanctioned ability to use force against others under certain circumstances, in ways non-police may not, that sets them apart.

I agree but police are also distinct from members of the military, who are also sanctioned to use force, because the subject population for which force is authorized is the citizenry the police are supposed to be serving as opposed to a hostile foreign armed force.  Hence the concern about the militarization of police rhetoric, mentality, tactics and equipment, a trend that is exemplified by the tendency to embrace a police-"civilian" distinction.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 16, 2021, 01:07:30 PM
Yeah I think the difference is the military/non-civilian do not police their "own". So the military may be involved in policing, for example if there's widespread civil disturbances but this is almost always on the basis that they are not from the community they are policing. This also exists in certain European police forces that either technically are part of the Ministry of Defence (Carabinieri/Gendarmes model) or were deliberately posted to a different area, often staying in a barracks (Civil Guard). As well as colonial models and police forces that perhaps initially developed to police other communities.

The "public" in that line are the community that is being policed. You're not calling "in" (from somewhere else/outside) the army, or men with no families in a barracks. And I think that concept (which in the UK was created from parish constables and watchmen) was developed in contrast to the yeomanry or the army or the gendarmes, or the colonial police forces being created in bits of the British Empire.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting.

That's because lots of groups have "special powers" and no one can articulate why the police special powers are super-special.

The police can lawfully kill you.  That seems to be a superpower similar to the military.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 01:22:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting.

That's because lots of groups have "special powers" and no one can articulate why the police special powers are super-special.

The police can lawfully kill you.  That seems to be a superpower similar to the military.

I really wouldn't put it that way.

I mean - I could lawfully kill you given the right circumstances.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 12:27:20 PM
Yeah what's the argument that the Secret Service aren't police (and hence not civilians)?

No uniforms, which was an identifier you used.  Ditto for FBI.

As you are finding out, defining differences that don't exist is hard.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 01:47:42 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
In all of these arguments about police vs. civilian, I cannot help but think that it sounds like, when one boils it all down to some kind of root cause for the existence of the distinction, is simply the desire for that distinction to exist...whether it is necessary or not.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 01:22:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting.

That's because lots of groups have "special powers" and no one can articulate why the police special powers are super-special.

The police can lawfully kill you.  That seems to be a superpower similar to the military.

I really wouldn't put it that way.

I mean - I could lawfully kill you given the right circumstances.

Sure, let me expand the answer then.  The police have powers to restrain, inflict physical harm, remove your liberty and even kill you to an extent that a citizen does not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 01:48:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 12:27:20 PM
Yeah what's the argument that the Secret Service aren't police (and hence not civilians)?

No uniforms, which was an identifier you used.  Ditto for FBI.

As you are finding out, defining differences that don't exist is hard.

(https://www.secretservice.gov/sites/default/files/inline-images/protecting-events-and-facilities.jpg)

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/toronto-canada-actors-wearing-fbi-uniform-austin-terace-street-filming-fbi-tv-series-toronto-canada-actors-177392804.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2021, 01:48:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting.

That's because lots of groups have "special powers" and no one can articulate why the police special powers are super-special.

The police can lawfully kill you.  That seems to be a superpower similar to the military.

I'm a civilian, and the military can not lawfully kill me.  So that suggests they are NOT military but rather civilian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
The police can lawfully kill you.  That seems to be a superpower similar to the military.

All civilians can lawfully kill you.  The police are no different in this respect (other than the circumstances that the law allows).  Airline pilots have the superpower of lawfully piloting your plane.  Dogcatchers have the superpower of detaining your dog.  Are none of these civilians because they have superpowers?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 01:48:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 12:27:20 PM
Yeah what's the argument that the Secret Service aren't police (and hence not civilians)?

No uniforms, which was an identifier you used.  Ditto for FBI.

As you are finding out, defining differences that don't exist is hard.

(https://www.secretservice.gov/sites/default/files/inline-images/protecting-events-and-facilities.jpg)

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/toronto-canada-actors-wearing-fbi-uniform-austin-terace-street-filming-fbi-tv-series-toronto-canada-actors-177392804.jpg)

This is not an argument, and the "uniforms" are not uniform.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:54:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 01:22:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
I tried the argument that the police have special powers. This group is not biting.

That's because lots of groups have "special powers" and no one can articulate why the police special powers are super-special.

The police can lawfully kill you.  That seems to be a superpower similar to the military.

I really wouldn't put it that way.

I mean - I could lawfully kill you given the right circumstances.

Sure, let me expand the answer then.  The police have powers to restrain, inflict physical harm, remove your liberty and even kill you to an extent that a citizen does not.

For those who missed the expansion of the answer.

But really, Grumbler, if you need to ignore the obvious differences between the powers given to the police and those given to a citizen to apply force, you might want to reconsider the validity of your argument.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:54:53 PM
But really, Grumbler, if you need to ignore the obvious differences between the powers given to the police and those given to a citizen to apply force, you might want to reconsider the validity of your argument.

Look up "special pleading fallacy" and you will see why you should reconsider your argument.

Different groups have different powers not given to civilians at large, but you are claiming that the power to apply force uniquely creates a group that is neither civilian nor military... a claim you cannot back up with anything other than special pleading.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 01:54:53 PM
But really, Grumbler, if you need to ignore the obvious differences between the powers given to the police and those given to a citizen to apply force, you might want to reconsider the validity of your argument.

Look up "special pleading fallacy" and you will see why you should reconsider your argument.

Different groups have different powers not given to civilians at large, but you are claiming that the power to apply force uniquely creates a group that is neither civilian nor military... a claim you cannot back up with anything other than special pleading.

At least he's using something.  You're just using argument by assertion.  You just repeat that civilian and military are opposites.  I maintain they are not - that military is just one of several things that fall in the category of "not civilian".

We're arguing the definition of a word - and yet somehow dictionary references aren't good enough for you... Yet you've offered no other argument to back you up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 03:43:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 16, 2021, 03:18:29 PM
At least he's using something.  You're just using argument by assertion.  You just repeat that civilian and military are opposites.  I maintain they are not - that military is just one of several things that fall in the category of "not civilian".

We're arguing the definition of a word - and yet somehow dictionary references aren't good enough for you... Yet you've offered no other argument to back you up.

This is precisely argument by assertion.  I point out that international law and US law make no distinction between police and any other kind of civilian, and you point out that some dictionaries do, some don't, and some say that fireman are also a special non-civilian-non-military... groupthingywhatever, and then assert that your evidence is better than mine.  You can't even say what the criteria define these "several things that fall in the category of 'not civilian'" despite several tries.

We are arguing the changing definition of a word (civilian) and whether changing the definition is good or bad. 

Oh, and I've never claimed that "civilian and military are opposites," so don't try to lay that on my head.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 03:48:02 PM
Grumbler is well and truly down the rabbit hole BB - best to stop now.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2021, 04:11:47 PM
Okay, I've been holding this mortar round for 51 hours, I'd really like to know if the police are legitimate military targets or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 04:20:55 PM
What charge(s) would y'all bring against the cop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
As much as one might hesitate to do it...I have to side strongly with grumbler on this issue.

The arguments put out in favor of the civilian/police divide seem only to boil down to a desire for the distinction to exist.

- Dictionary definitions?  Ok, but these can easily evolve change with just common usage/changing times...or a simple evolution for the desire of the meanings of a word to change.  Too fungible.
- Uniforms and hierarchal structure?  These exist in plenty areas, both public and private.
- The ability to apply force on others and deprive them of freedom in accordance with the law?  There are circumstances where the so-called "civilians" can do so, even if perhaps with less leeway.  Judges can deprive you of freedom, backed by the law, but are not commonly thought of as not "civilians".  Even if they do use police to enforce those actions.

It just feels too much like one simply wants the distinction to exist, therefore it does, even if there is no tangible benefit to it existing.

BB mentioned the example of "police" vs. "civilian" witnesses.  What is the point of the distinction?  What would be the difference if they were all just "witnesses", but one was a police officer, and other was, say, a butcher?  Or a carpenter?  From where I stand (and I am open to be enlightened) on the outside, it looks like an attempt to imply that one is more authoritative and worthy of greater weight than the other...which seems very unlikely.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 04:20:55 PM
What charge(s) would y'all bring against the cop?

Which one?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
Which one?

Shot 13 year old.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 04:53:29 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
As much as one might hesitate to do it...I have to side strongly with grumbler on this issue.

The arguments put out in favor of the civilian/police divide seem only to boil down to a desire for the distinction to exist.

- Dictionary definitions?  Ok, but these can easily evolve change with just common usage/changing times...or a simple evolution for the desire of the meanings of a word to change.  Too fungible.
- Uniforms and hierarchal structure?  These exist in plenty areas, both public and private.
- The ability to apply force on others and deprive them of freedom in accordance with the law?  There are circumstances where the so-called "civilians" can do so, even if perhaps with less leeway.  Judges can deprive you of freedom, backed by the law, but are not commonly thought of as not "civilians".  Even if they do use police to enforce those actions.

It just feels too much like one simply wants the distinction to exist, therefore it does, even if there is no tangible benefit to it existing.

BB mentioned the example of "police" vs. "civilian" witnesses.  What is the point of the distinction?  What would be the difference if they were all just "witnesses", but one was a police officer, and other was, say, a butcher?  Or a carpenter?  From where I stand (and I am open to be enlightened) on the outside, it looks like an attempt to imply that one is more authoritative and worthy of greater weight than the other...which seems very unlikely.

The distinction I think you are missing is who does the action.  A court does not physically deprive anyone of liberty.  They might order that someone be deprived of liberty, but others carry out that order.  That is where the coercive power of the state comes into play (and part of the reason the courts are a separate branch, since they also make rulings regarding the manner in which the state operates when that liberty is taken).    The thing that sets the police apart is their power comes before any action by the court.  The police have the discretion to detain without an order of the court.  The same can be said for border guards but the conversation didn't go that way.

So really all that is left of Grumbler's argument is an assertion that civilian must mean anyone who is not in the military simply because that is one definition of the word.  But even that breaks down outside the US - and the example of the RCMP has already been discussed in that regard.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
So, police and military are not civilians because they are both____.  Fill in the blank using one word.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

I think it has to do with who exercises the coercive powers of the state.  The military and police are rather unique in that way.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 06:50:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
Which one?

Shot 13 year old.

Tough call that one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

I think it has to do with who exercises the coercive powers of the state.  The military and police are rather unique in that way.

Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids, so police and military are not, in fact, unique in that.

Your argument boils down to special pleading (you really need to look that up before you continue to ignore the First Rule of Holes). 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 06:50:09 PM
Tough call that one.

So make the tough call.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:57:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 06:50:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
Which one?

Shot 13 year old.

Tough call that one.

I don't think we have nearly enough information to start reaching a judgement on that case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:57:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 06:50:09 PM
Tough call that one.

So make the tough call.

Why don't you go first, of you are so eager to see leaps to judgement?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:57:05 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 06:50:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 16, 2021, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 16, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
Which one?

Shot 13 year old.

Tough call that one.

I don't think we have nearly enough information to start reaching a judgement on that case.

Yup
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on April 16, 2021, 07:57:08 PM
In a war between two or more states, if one state is doing badly and some of it's territory is occupied, the police forces there are not taken prisoner by the occupying power, have protections written in international conventions and can still go about maintaining civil order amongst the civilian population. They are decidedly not military in any meaning full way.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

I think it has to do with who exercises the coercive powers of the state.  The military and police are rather unique in that way.

Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids, so police and military are not, in fact, unique in that.

Your argument boils down to special pleading (you really need to look that up before you continue to ignore the First Rule of Holes).

Wow, where you live meter maids have the same powers as the police.  I mean there are a lot of stories about the militarization of the police down there.  But holy crap, I had no idea Meter maids were packing.  You sure you want to keep living there?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 16, 2021, 11:50:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids
Wow, where you live meter maids have the same powers as the police.


:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 17, 2021, 01:23:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

I think it has to do with who exercises the coercive powers of the state.  The military and police are rather unique in that way.

Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids, so police and military are not, in fact, unique in that.

Your argument boils down to special pleading (you really need to look that up before you continue to ignore the First Rule of Holes).

Wow, where you live meter maids have the same powers as the police.  I mean there are a lot of stories about the militarization of the police down there.  But holy crap, I had no idea Meter maids were packing.  You sure you want to keep living there?

I know you and Grumbler have a special antagonism between you, but I don't think he said that, or even implied it. 

As I read it, he was including those professions (even if "meter maid" is a rather outdated and sexist term I'd think these days) that exercise the authority of the state and law, albeit in a lesser degree. 

As to your point, are they unique?  In a sense, sure.  But I would counter that other professions and functions of the state (or even in the private sphere) have their own uniqueness, but don't earn a special civilian/police divide.  They may not all have the direct, literal "hands-on" contact of a police officer...but so what?  I don't see a good argument for that uniqueness necessitates an artificial divide that creates two "classes" of human beings where it is not necessary to do so.

Perhaps the argument needs to shift to "why is it necessary to have an exceptional distinction, not shared by other professions, between police officers and other people in a society?". 

At first glance, the potential answer "because they exercise the coercive power of the state", doesn't seem adequate or necessary...as we could then just as easily throw up other reasons to allocate people in certain professions from others in society.    It just seems like a form of division that we don't need.

Or we just need to agree to disagree and let this squabble die.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 17, 2021, 01:27:50 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 17, 2021, 01:23:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

I think it has to do with who exercises the coercive powers of the state.  The military and police are rather unique in that way.

Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids, so police and military are not, in fact, unique in that.

Your argument boils down to special pleading (you really need to look that up before you continue to ignore the First Rule of Holes).

Wow, where you live meter maids have the same powers as the police.  I mean there are a lot of stories about the militarization of the police down there.  But holy crap, I had no idea Meter maids were packing.  You sure you want to keep living there?

I know you and Grumbler have a special antagonism between you, but I don't think he said that, or even implied it. 

As I read it, he was including those professions (even if "meter maid" is a rather outdated and sexist term I'd think these days) that exercise the authority of the state and law, albeit in a lesser degree. 

As to your point, are they unique?  In a sense, sure.  But I would counter that other professions and functions of the state (or even in the private sphere) have their own uniqueness, but don't earn a special civilian/police divide.  They may not all have the direct, literal "hands-on" contact of a police officer...but so what?  I don't see a good argument for that uniqueness necessitates an artificial divide that creates two "classes" of human beings where it is not necessary to do so.

Perhaps the argument needs to shift to "why is it necessary to have an exceptional distinction, not shared by other professions, between police officers and other people in a society?". 

At first glance, the potential answer "because they exercise the coercive power of the state", doesn't seem adequate or necessary...as we could then just as easily throw up other reasons to allocate people in certain professions from others in society.    It just seems like a form of division that we don't need.

Or we just need to agree to disagree and let this squabble die.  :P

I think the two sides are simply arguing two different things.

Your "side" is arguing that the distinction isn't a good idea. Presumably, because using such a distinction may lead to bad attitudes on the part of the cops, contribute to a creeping militarization on the part of the cops, etc.

I may even agree with that.

However, the other "side" is basically noting that the distinction exists, is used by some, and that there is a reason why it is used - because cops have coercive powers, and that this difference is important.

No doubt other professions have coercive state powers to a degree, so maybe the definition is a bit fuzzy around the edges, but that is basically that.

Point is, both points of view can be true at the same time - the distinction may make sense, but it also may be a bad idea to make it. The fact that it may be a bad idea doesn't invalidate the fact that the distinction makes sense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2021, 10:19:13 PM
CdM worked in Baltimore didn't he?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/8xvzwp/baltimore-cops-carried-toy-guns-to-plant-on-people-they-shot-trial-reveals-vgtrn
QuoteBaltimore Cops Carried Toy Guns to Plant on People They Shot, Trial Reveals

One officer involved in the city's massive corruption scandal said officers kept the replicas "in case we accidentally hit somebody or got into a shootout, so we could plant them."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2021, 10:45:41 PM
Didn't bin Ladin carry a Super Soaker? Allegedly... :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2021, 10:46:38 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2021, 10:19:13 PM
CdM worked in Baltimore didn't he?

A long ass time ago. I think he was bail bonding by the time he started posting on Languish.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 10:17:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2021, 11:50:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids
Wow, where you live meter maids have the same powers as the police.


:hmm:

Grumbler was making an equivalency argument, I am as confused by it as you are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 10:19:42 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 17, 2021, 01:23:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2021, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2021, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 16, 2021, 05:10:14 PM
Ok, so that well describes a function and powers of someone appointed with police powers.  But I don't see why that precipitates a need to make those persons distinctive from others on that basis alone, again, except for what seems to be an inexplicable need to highlight that distinction in the widespread sense that we do.

I simply just don't see a need for it.  And as Grumbler has highlighted, that artificial distinction seems to have spawned plenty of downsides and maintains no real benefits (I won't count simply administrative ones).

I think it has to do with who exercises the coercive powers of the state.  The military and police are rather unique in that way.

Prison guards exercise the coercive powers of the state, as do dogcatchers and meter maids, so police and military are not, in fact, unique in that.

Your argument boils down to special pleading (you really need to look that up before you continue to ignore the First Rule of Holes).

Wow, where you live meter maids have the same powers as the police.  I mean there are a lot of stories about the militarization of the police down there.  But holy crap, I had no idea Meter maids were packing.  You sure you want to keep living there?

I know you and Grumbler have a special antagonism between you, but I don't think he said that, or even implied it. 

As I read it, he was including those professions (even if "meter maid" is a rather outdated and sexist term I'd think these days) that exercise the authority of the state and law, albeit in a lesser degree. 

As to your point, are they unique?  In a sense, sure.  But I would counter that other professions and functions of the state (or even in the private sphere) have their own uniqueness, but don't earn a special civilian/police divide.  They may not all have the direct, literal "hands-on" contact of a police officer...but so what?  I don't see a good argument for that uniqueness necessitates an artificial divide that creates two "classes" of human beings where it is not necessary to do so.

Perhaps the argument needs to shift to "why is it necessary to have an exceptional distinction, not shared by other professions, between police officers and other people in a society?". 

At first glance, the potential answer "because they exercise the coercive power of the state", doesn't seem adequate or necessary...as we could then just as easily throw up other reasons to allocate people in certain professions from others in society.    It just seems like a form of division that we don't need.

Or we just need to agree to disagree and let this squabble die.  :P

The lesser degree is the critical point.  Grumbler's argument falls apart when he tries to suggest there is an equivalency between the powers of the police and the powers of a person who gives out fines.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: merithyn on April 19, 2021, 10:22:52 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2021, 10:19:13 PM
CdM worked in Baltimore didn't he?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/8xvzwp/baltimore-cops-carried-toy-guns-to-plant-on-people-they-shot-trial-reveals-vgtrn
QuoteBaltimore Cops Carried Toy Guns to Plant on People They Shot, Trial Reveals

One officer involved in the city's massive corruption scandal said officers kept the replicas "in case we accidentally hit somebody or got into a shootout, so we could plant them."

He left the force for reasons such as this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 19, 2021, 10:47:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 10:19:42 AM

The lesser degree is the critical point.  Grumbler's argument falls apart when he tries to suggest there is an equivalency between the powers of the police and the powers of a person who gives out fines.

That is probably our point of departure then.  I don't think it can be that critical, otherwise surely it would then make sense for those we often consider "higher" in the food chain of exercising the coercive power of the state (e.g. prosecutors, judges, even some politicians) etc.), even if not in a "hands on" way, would also easily fall on the non-civilian divide of this distinction.  But we don't usually consider them so.

And still, I think, not necessary or useful in either case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 11:05:55 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 19, 2021, 10:47:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 10:19:42 AM

The lesser degree is the critical point.  Grumbler's argument falls apart when he tries to suggest there is an equivalency between the powers of the police and the powers of a person who gives out fines.

That is probably our point of departure then.  I don't think it can be that critical, otherwise surely it would then make sense for those we often consider "higher" in the food chain of exercising the coercive power of the state (e.g. prosecutors, judges, even some politicians) etc.), even if not in a "hands on" way, would also easily fall on the non-civilian divide of this distinction.  But we don't usually consider them so.

And still, I think, not necessary or useful in either case.

Let's explore that.  The police are given the power to exercise their discretion to use force (up to and including lethal force) that no one else is given.  I am becoming confused by the very wide definition you are using for coercive force.  I am no longer sure what you mean by that term when you include politicians.  I am also not sure what you mean by "even if not in a hands on way".  The hands on aspect of the powers given to police is exactly what I am talking about.  The only way in which all those others could fall into the same categorie is if one ignores the special powers given to police.

As Malthus points out, you may want to gloss over those differences - but I think you make a significant mistake by doing so.  The use and abuse of the powers given to the police are an important issue and too easy to gloss over if one takes the view they are the same as a dog catcher. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on April 19, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 11:05:55 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 19, 2021, 10:47:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 10:19:42 AM

The lesser degree is the critical point.  Grumbler's argument falls apart when he tries to suggest there is an equivalency between the powers of the police and the powers of a person who gives out fines.

That is probably our point of departure then.  I don't think it can be that critical, otherwise surely it would then make sense for those we often consider "higher" in the food chain of exercising the coercive power of the state (e.g. prosecutors, judges, even some politicians) etc.), even if not in a "hands on" way, would also easily fall on the non-civilian divide of this distinction.  But we don't usually consider them so.

And still, I think, not necessary or useful in either case.

Let's explore that.  The police are given the power to exercise their discretion to use force (up to and including lethal force) that no one else is given.  I am becoming confused by the very wide definition you are using for coercive force.  I am no longer sure what you mean by that term when you include politicians.  I am also not sure what you mean by "even if not in a hands on way".  The hands on aspect of the powers given to police is exactly what I am talking about.  The only way in which all those others could fall into the same categories is if one ignores the special powers given to police.

As Malthus points out, you may want to gloss over those differences - but I think you make a significant mistake by doing so.  The use and abuse of the powers given to the police are an important issue and too easy to gloss over if one takes the view they are the same as a dog catcher.

Politicians (and of course, not all), in that sense that in many jurisdictions, prosecutors/judges/district attorneys/mayors seem to have the power and authority to give "orders" (for example, in the form of arrest warrants, etc.). to police officers, if not doing the "hands on" job personally.

Again, I'll easily concede that the hands-on aspect is important, but again, why does that create a need for a police/civilian distinction?  It seems one could easily just have the understanding that one employed as a police officer has that power/authority/discretion without a "they are not civilians, but something special" distinction.  They could just as easily be civilians that have the aforementioned special authority as a nature of their job.

This special, and artificial police/civilian distinction just looks an attempt to intentionally create a divisive us vs. them construct that serves no useful purpose.  Obviously it seems BB and yourself thinks it has a useful purpose, but it evades me what that is?

It seems to have obviously expanded beyond any innocuous administrative distinction of what powers police have over others, but as one intentionally used, mostly by police themselves, to say "we are not just them, we are special".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 11:39:23 AM
Here politicians, including mayors, do not have the power to order the police to carry out a specific act.  For example no politician could tell the police - go arrest so and so.  The police must determine whether their actions are appropriate.  That is an important safeguard against political interference that is in our law - and I assume it is part of the law in the US. 

The Courts do issue orders, as we have discussed, but never tell the police how to carry out those orders.  The distinction is important - here in some high profile cases involving injunctions the court has demanded the attendance of the RCMP to explain to the court why its injunction orders were not being enforced by the police.

My argument is that it is important to separate the police from all others in society (civilians) because the police have a significant amount of power that is not given to any others.  Once we start thinking of the police as being in the same categorie as a dog catcher we lose focus of the important ways in which they are different from all other governmental actors.  When that occurs we might also think that police should have similar oversight.  My argument is that oversight of the police should be much greater because of the significant power they have.

I think that where this debate went wrong is trying to make them like the military on the reasoning that only the military are not civilians.  If that is so, then we are left with trying to come up with some other distinction to separate the police from civilians.  Probably just more analytically correct to separate police and the military from civilians.





Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 19, 2021, 12:25:00 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 19, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
Again, I'll easily concede that the hands-on aspect is important, but again, why does that create a need for a police/civilian distinction?  It seems one could easily just have the understanding that one employed as a police officer has that power/authority/discretion without a "they are not civilians, but something special" distinction.  They could just as easily be civilians that have the aforementioned special authority as a nature of their job.

This is precisely why the argument that "police are not civilians" because [difference] is merely special pleading.  Police exercised that power as civilians for centuries while being considered civilians.  Other [difference]s don't seem to create a civilians/special divide, so why should the police differences create such a divide?  Especially when the proponents of such a divide cannot articulate which specific differences actually create such a divide.

QuoteThis special, and artificial police/civilian distinction just looks an attempt to intentionally create a divisive us vs. them construct that serves no useful purpose.  Obviously it seems BB and yourself thinks it has a useful purpose, but it evades me what that is?

It seems to have obviously expanded beyond any innocuous administrative distinction of what powers police have over others, but as one intentionally used, mostly by police themselves, to say "we are not just them, we are special".

My points precisely.  This artificial divide seems almost all downside, with the only upside being feeding police egos.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 12:46:58 PM
Special pleading means ignoring an important distinction - which is what I say your argument does.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 19, 2021, 03:47:41 PM
:hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on April 19, 2021, 03:59:41 PM
I had multiple tabs open.  :sleep:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 19, 2021, 04:06:55 PM
In Missouri at least, I have the right to shoot someone if I feel my life is endangered. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 19, 2021, 04:07:16 PM
Maxine Waters is not helping the situation...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on April 19, 2021, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 19, 2021, 04:06:55 PM
In Missouri at least, I have the right to shoot someone if I feel my life is endangered.

Are you an airborne ranger?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 19, 2021, 04:09:05 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 19, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
This special, and artificial police/civilian distinction just looks an attempt to intentionally create a divisive us vs. them construct that serves no useful purpose.  Obviously it seems BB and yourself thinks it has a useful purpose, but it evades me what that is?

It seems to have obviously expanded beyond any innocuous administrative distinction of what powers police have over others, but as one intentionally used, mostly by police themselves, to say "we are not just them, we are special".

Okay, so I'm the one who keeps bringing up the police / civilian divide for witnesses in court.  So let me explain why it's useful.

Police are just very different from other witnesses.  They're being paid to be there, for starters.  This is part of their duties.  They have certainly obligations such as note-taking that other witnesses don't have.  And once they have some experience most of them tend to be really, really good witnesses.  And they mostly can be counted on to show up and be on time.

Then we have other witnesses.  They're not being paid to be there.  They've never been to court in their life most of the time.  They aren't trained to take notes.  And while some can be very good, others can be very bad witnesses.  And their attendance can be very hit-or-miss (just today I had the victim of a air pistol shooting show up nearly 2 hours late).

So it's useful to divide up between the police witnesses, and the non-police witnesses.  And an easier word for 'non-police' is civilian.

And yes, you can also get into some odd edge cases.  There's lots of investigative agencies that aren't strictly speaking police.  Some may not even wear uniforms.  But it's still a useful distinction for us.  Just because there are tricky edge cases for any kind of categorization doesn't make the process ot putting things into categories useless.

And like I said earlier,  in this context, if I had to call a member of the Canadian Forces as a witness I'd list them as a civilian.  Because if this had something to do with while they were on active duty a military court would almost certainly have jurisdiction.  And I have rarely seen files where off-duty police officers get involved in a file, but they still tend to go into "cop mode" so I'd still list them as police, not civilian.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 19, 2021, 03:59:41 PM
I had multiple tabs open.  :sleep:


:lol:

I thought it was a brilliant non sequitur  :D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 19, 2021, 05:10:18 PM
Out of curiosity I thought I'd look up the etymology of Civilian to find out how it was originally used (Obviously it's from the Latin word 'civis'.  I don't need to look that up).

Quotelate 14c., "judge or authority on civil law," from noun use of Old French civilien "of the civil law," created from Latin civilis "relating to a citizen, relating to public life, befitting a citizen; popular, affable, courteous," alternative adjectival derivative of civis "townsman" (see city). Sense of "non-military and non-clerical person, one whose pursuits are those of civilian life" is attested by 1766. As an adjective, "pertaining to or characteristic of a civilian," from 1640s.

Why would it refer to soldiers, police and priests?  Best guess: It corresponds to Durkenheim's Dumezil trifunctional theory.

EDIT:  I'm an idiot, I confused Durkheim with Dumezil.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 19, 2021, 06:34:00 PM
From https://www.fallacyfiles.org/specplea.html (https://www.fallacyfiles.org/specplea.html)

QuoteSpecial Pleading
Taxonomy: Logical Fallacy > Informal Fallacy > Special Pleading

Form:
Rule: Xs are generally Ys.
x is an X.
x is an exception to the rule because it is I (where I is an irrelevant characteristic).
Therefore, x is not a Y.

Example:
The law requires everyone to follow the speed limit and other traffic regulations, but in Suffolk County, exceptions should be made for cops and their families, police union officials say.

Police Benevolent Association president Jeff Frayler said Thursday it has been union policy to discourage Suffolk police officers from issuing tickets to fellow officers, regardless of where they work.

"Police officers have discretion whenever they stop anyone, but they should particularly extend that courtesy in the case of other police officers and their families," Frayler said in a brief telephone interview Thursday. "It is a professional courtesy."

Lots of equivalent entries, but since this one directly uses CC's argument as an example of the fallacy, I used this one.

BB:  when do you "list" witnesses as civilian or police?  Why is it necessary to distinguish them in such a way?  Aren't expert witnesses also paid, also usually experienced in court appearances, known for being on-time for appearances, and also required to provide written support for their testimony (i.e. notes")? Are they then police, civilians, or some other, new category?  If the latter, how many categories are there?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 19, 2021, 08:00:56 PM
Experts provide opinion evidence based on facts they are asked to assume are true.

Police provide evidence as to what is true.

A distinction that can get lost to a lay person.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 19, 2021, 10:28:50 PM
Civilians can provide opinion evidence based on facts they are asked to assume are true.

Civilians can provide evidence as to what is true.

A distinction that can get lost to one engaged in special pleading.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 20, 2021, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 19, 2021, 06:34:00 PM
BB:  when do you "list" witnesses as civilian or police?  Why is it necessary to distinguish them in such a way?  Aren't expert witnesses also paid, also usually experienced in court appearances, known for being on-time for appearances, and also required to provide written support for their testimony (i.e. notes")? Are they then police, civilians, or some other, new category?  If the latter, how many categories are there?

You are kind of correct - we have 3 categories: police, civilian and expert (and an expert can be either a police expert, or a civilian expert, so that's why they have their own category).

QuoteCivilians can provide opinion evidence based on facts they are asked to assume are true.

Well, no.

As I noted, a civilian can also be an expert.  But not all civilians are experts - and ONLY a qualified expert can give opinion evidence.

For everyone else it's straight "just the facts, ma'am".


Why do we use these categories?  It's just a kind of shorthand.  I mean yes in longhand you name every witness and their expected area of testimony.  But as shorthand at the start of a trial I'll tell the judge "good morning your Honour.  Barrister, initial B, for the Crown.  I'm here on the Jones matter.  The Crown has 2 police and 3 civilian witnesses today, and we're ready to proceed."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 20, 2021, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 20, 2021, 10:10:24 AM
You are kind of correct - we have 3 categories: police, civilian and expert (and an expert can be either a police expert, or a civilian expert, so that's why they have their own category).

QuoteCivilians can provide opinion evidence based on facts they are asked to assume are true.

Well, no.

As I noted, a civilian can also be an expert.  But not all civilians are experts - and ONLY a qualified expert can give opinion evidence.

For everyone else it's straight "just the facts, ma'am".


Why do we use these categories?  It's just a kind of shorthand.  I mean yes in longhand you name every witness and their expected area of testimony.  But as shorthand at the start of a trial I'll tell the judge "good morning your Honour.  Barrister, initial B, for the Crown.  I'm here on the Jones matter.  The Crown has 2 police and 3 civilian witnesses today, and we're ready to proceed."

So are experts still not civilians when they are outside of the courthouse?  Are the police?

I appreciate you explaining this terminology, but the more you explain, the less significant it seems to be to the question of whether or not police are civilians in any sense other than courthouse shorthand.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 20, 2021, 01:45:51 PM
Unlike the civilian / police divide, an expert witness have very special rules in court.  They have to file an expert report and CV 30 days in advance.  The judge or justice has to qualify them before they can give evidence.  And of course, once they are qualified as an expert they are the only type of witness who is allowed to give  opinion evidence.  e.g. 'in my opinion the cause of death was blunt force trauma'.

Like I mentioned, an expert can be either police or civilian.  Typically police forces have experts in things like fingerprints, or perhaps dog tracks.  A civilian expert could be just about anything else.

Oh, this brings me to another and separate use of the police / civilian terminology: civilian police employees.  Most police forces employ people who are not sworn, uniformed officers.  They haven't received specialized training, they are not "peace officers" as defined in law - but their employer is the police force.  Maybe they answer phones, or they might work as some kind of expert (our toxicologists work for the RCMP).  We call these people civilian employees.

There's a very big distinction between sworn police officers and non-sworn, non-uniformed police employees.  The easiest term for these people is "civilian".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 20, 2021, 02:45:40 PM
When a soldier testifies what category does she go in?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 20, 2021, 03:04:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 20, 2021, 02:45:40 PM
When a soldier testifies what category does she go in?

I've mentioned that before.  When I prosecuted in Cold Lake or Wainwright both those towns had nearby Canadian Forces bases.  For me the important distinction is between police and non-police.  So a file investigated by the Military Police (who God bless 'em, but they weren't well trained in criminal investigations) I would treat like police.  If it's just Corporal Joe who saw something while he was off-duty I would treat like a civilian.  And if it was something that happened while military soldiers were on-duty it would go to a military court.

Obviously Corporal Joe is not a civilian in other contexts, being a uniformed soldier and all.  But he is in this one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 20, 2021, 06:55:54 PM
So we have figured out that in a court, people who are clearly civilians are not civilians, and people who are clearly military are civilians.

I think we can safely assume that Beebs court is an excellent example of why his example should definitely not be considered as relevant to the overall debate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 20, 2021, 09:55:41 PM
lol,

Berkut:  my clearly correct view is clearly correct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 20, 2021, 11:48:25 PM
I've never heard this civilian witness distinction used in a US (non-military) court, although my experience is limited to federal criminal cases where FBI agents are witnesses not usually police.  it may be that US attorney's office use such terminology internally.  From the perspective of court rules and trial practice, a law enforcement witness is like any other fact witness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2021, 12:21:30 AM
No deselection attempt at all and could have easily shot the other people involved.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=472451740761727&ref=watch_permalink
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on April 21, 2021, 04:00:11 AM
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1384688301962141697

Aparently, Tucker Carlson is the Joker.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 08:38:34 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 20, 2021, 11:48:25 PM
I've never heard this civilian witness distinction used in a US (non-military) court, although my experience is limited to federal criminal cases where FBI agents are witnesses not usually police.  it may be that US attorney's office use such terminology internally.  From the perspective of court rules and trial practice, a law enforcement witness is like any other fact witness.

As BB mentioned, referring to people who are not police as civilians is not limited to court rooms.  Police departments in Canada generally refer to their non police employees as civilians as well. For example here is the RCMP describing the "civilian" job opportunities available within the RCMP.  https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/civilian-employee-careers

I checked and the police in New York use the same terminology https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/civilians/civilians-landing.page

It may be that our US languish contributors should reevaluate their position that civilian can only mean non military.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2021, 08:42:33 AM
Eh, having worked in a Federal agency with sworn law enforcement officers in the agency, the delineation I often see is "sworn" employee and "civilian" employee. So I don't actually think it's that uncommon in police orgs in the U.S. I think a big city municipal police department also usually will talk of its "sworn officers" and "civilian employees." What may be different is the courts here it seems like from other posters haven't standardized this language or codified it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:00:50 AM
I"ve certainly heard people within the policing community refer to non-police as "civilians". Is that what is up for debate?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:00:50 AM
I"ve certainly heard people within the policing community refer to non-police as "civilians". Is that what is up for debate?

The issue we are discussing is the meaning of the word civilian.  Grumbler has taken the position that it has a narrow meaning that properly only refers to all people who are not in the military.  You seemed to have been supporting that argument with some emphasis. BB, I and others have pointed out that is too narrow and that a civilian can also mean a non police officer.   Others objected to removing police officers from the meaning of civilian.   I was beginning to think Grumbler was being so vehement about this because he was correct that in the US the word does have that narrow meaning.  But it turns out he is not aware that in the US non police officers are also referred to as civilians.

edit: btw a further quick check shows that is it common in the US to distinguish between police officers and civilian employees of police departments.

For example LAPD: https://www.lapdonline.org/contact_us/content_basic_view/827
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2021, 08:42:33 AM
Eh, having worked in a Federal agency with sworn law enforcement officers in the agency, the delineation I often see is "sworn" employee and "civilian" employee. So I don't actually think it's that uncommon in police orgs in the U.S. I think a big city municipal police department also usually will talk of its "sworn officers" and "civilian employees." What may be different is the courts here it seems like from other posters haven't standardized this language or codified it.

Yeah, so the US is basically the same as Canada and the word does not have the narrow meaning Grumbler asserts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2021, 09:12:16 AM
It's context based of course too, like in the military they do refer to anyone who isn't in the military (including civilian police officers) as civilians. But that's not a universal standard that I'm familiar with here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 09:14:28 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2021, 09:12:16 AM
It's context based of course too, like in the military they do refer to anyone who isn't in the military (including civilian police officers) as civilians. But that's not a universal standard that I'm familiar with here.

Yeah, that is the point.  The argument was that civilian only properly applies to non military.  Of course it can refer to non military but that is not the only proper usage of the term.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:41:34 AM
I thought the point was that the term depends on the context, and you cannot just generically say that the police are not civilians. In most contexts, that is simply not true.

Honestly, I was never all that sure what the argument was about exactly, or how the distinction actually mattered in the context of police violence.

Outside some specific context, in my mind at least, "civilian" references the distinction between the military and non-military. But again....why is the distinction important here? Honest question. Is it just Languish semantics argument for its own sake?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 10:22:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:41:34 AM
I thought the point was that the term depends on the context, and you cannot just generically say that the police are not civilians. In most contexts, that is simply not true.

Honestly, I was never all that sure what the argument was about exactly, or how the distinction actually mattered in the context of police violence.

Outside some specific context, in my mind at least, "civilian" references the distinction between the military and non-military. But again....why is the distinction important here? Honest question. Is it just Languish semantics argument for its own sake?

Assuming the argument is as nuanced as you say (I don't think Grumbler was), it is still not accurate.  The police themselves draw the distinction of police officers not being civilians.  Not sure why there is some general sense in which that is not accurate.  Maybe this reflects the way in which your society is more heavily influenced by the military.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 11:08:12 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 09:06:54 AM
The issue we are discussing is the meaning of the word civilian.  Grumbler has taken the position that it has a narrow meaning that properly only refers to all people who are not in the military.  You seemed to have been supporting that argument with some emphasis. BB, I and others have pointed out that is too narrow and that a civilian can also mean a non police officer.   Others objected to removing police officers from the meaning of civilian.   I was beginning to think Grumbler was being so vehement about this because he was correct that in the US the word does have that narrow meaning.  But it turns out he is not aware that in the US non police officers are also referred to as civilians.

edit: btw a further quick check shows that is it common in the US to distinguish between police officers and civilian employees of police departments.

For example LAPD: https://www.lapdonline.org/contact_us/content_basic_view/827

My argument is that the definition of civilian is much broader than you believe.  My definition of civilian includes police, firefighters, Boy Scouts, airline pilots, etc - everyone who is not military is, for almost all purposes, a civilian: a person subject to civil and not military law, and protected by the Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

I am aware, thanks to BB, that in some courts the term civilian implies unreliability, and that those courts then distinguish between "civilian," "police" and "expert" witnesses when prosecutors report to the judge on their witness list.  I don't believe that this distinction carries outside of the courtroom (e.g. that an expert is not a civilian again when he leaves the courthouse), so I appreciate BB's careful explanations but conclude that they are not relevant in the discussion of whether police are, or are not, civilians in the larger sense.

I fully understand that police in some countries want to distinguish themselves from mere civilians, and that some bureaucrats find the term "civilian" to be useful in distinguishing between sworn and unsworn police department employees, but I again don't see how that determination is applicable outside of those specific circumstances.  I would not at all be surprised to find that airline pilots, nuclear power plant operators, prison guards, and any number of other groups also consider themselves to be separate from civilians. It's a natural human trait to want to be special.

What I don't understand is your insistence that your special pleading for the distinction between police and civilians should not be dismissed for the same reasons all special pleading is dismissed; that you haven't shown any reason why police, and no other group, should be distinguished (except for specific purposes in specific cases) from every other civilian.  Meaningful distinctions should be meaningful.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2021, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:41:34 AM
Outside some specific context, in my mind at least, "civilian" references the distinction between the military and non-military. But again....why is the distinction important here? Honest question. Is it just Languish semantics argument for its own sake?

From what I can tell it is this that is happening yes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:30:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 11:08:12 AM
My argument is that the definition of civilian is much broader than you believe.  My definition of civilian includes police, firefighters, Boy Scouts, airline pilots, etc - everyone who is not military is, for almost all purposes, a civilian: a person subject to civil and not military law, and protected by the Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

I am aware, thanks to BB, that in some courts the term civilian implies unreliability, and that those courts then distinguish between "civilian," "police" and "expert" witnesses when prosecutors report to the judge on their witness list.  I don't believe that this distinction carries outside of the courtroom (e.g. that an expert is not a civilian again when he leaves the courthouse), so I appreciate BB's careful explanations but conclude that they are not relevant in the discussion of whether police are, or are not, civilians in the larger sense.

I fully understand that police in some countries want to distinguish themselves from mere civilians, and that some bureaucrats find the term "civilian" to be useful in distinguishing between sworn and unsworn police department employees, but I again don't see how that determination is applicable outside of those specific circumstances.  I would not at all be surprised to find that airline pilots, nuclear power plant operators, prison guards, and any number of other groups also consider themselves to be separate from civilians. It's a natural human trait to want to be special.

What I don't understand is your insistence that your special pleading for the distinction between police and civilians should not be dismissed for the same reasons all special pleading is dismissed; that you haven't shown any reason why police, and no other group, should be distinguished (except for specific purposes in specific cases) from every other civilian.  Meaningful distinctions should be meaningful.

grumbler, there is no doubt that in the context of a war, civilian has exactly the meaning you describe to it - that civilian means non-military.  If we get into a war there is no doubt in my mind that my local member of the Edmonton Police Service would be treated as a civilian.

And I want to clarify - being a "civilian" witness does necessarily not make one less reliable.  The law is pretty clear that police officers are not more reliable by virtue of their status.  But their status as police officers does make them noticeably different from other, civilian, witnesses.

But for someone who keeps mentioning "special pleading", with respect I think that's what you're resorting to.  We now have both dictionary definitions, and several real world reports of non-police officers being called civilians.  Other than reference to the Geneva Convention you really haven't provided any proof for your assertion that civilian = non-military (and I will freely concede that in the context of war it does have that meaning).

I don't think it's anyone claiming to be "special".  I will freely admit that anyone who serves in the armed forces puts themselves in risk far more than anyone who serves municipal police department.  Police and military are not synonymous.  I very much value and respect those who serve in our militaries.  Giving a wider, or more contextual, definition to the term "civilian" does not diminish the specialness of the military.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:00:50 AM
I"ve certainly heard people within the policing community refer to non-police as "civilians". Is that what is up for debate?

The debate is whether this terminology, which all agree is being used, is incorrect or not.

One side of the debate is that the use of this terminology is incorrect. According to that side, "civilian" is a term that applies to the distinction between the military and everyone who is not in the military, and has no other legitimate use. If this is true, then police - who are not in the military - are "civilians", nothing more.

The other side of the debate is that the use of the term had more than one meaning. In the context of the laws of war and peace, the police are "civilians", just as the first side states. However, in the context of law enforcement, the police are not "civilians" (and in this context, an off-duty member of the armed forces, who is subject to civilian law rather than military law, would be a "civilian" as well).

That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
The debate is whether this terminology, which all agree is being used, is incorrect or not.

One side of the debate is that the use of this terminology is incorrect. According to that side, "civilian" is a term that applies to the distinction between the military and everyone who is not in the military, and has no other legitimate use. If this is true, then police - who are not in the military - are "civilians", nothing more.

The other side of the debate is that the use of the term had more than one meaning. In the context of the laws of war and peace, the police are "civilians", just as the first side states. However, in the context of law enforcement, the police are not "civilians" (and in this context, an off-duty member of the armed forces, who is subject to civilian law rather than military law, would be a "civilian" as well).

That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.

Actually, off-duty military and naval members in the US are still subject to the UCMJ and would be tried in military courts unless they waive jurisdiction (or don't have it, in e.g. non-criminal infractions like speeding or jaywalking).

The only sense in which police don't seem to be civilians is in their own minds and some bureaucratic shorthand.  Certainly the consequences of police mentally divorcing themselves from the civilian populace cannot be good.

My argument is simply that "the police are civilians" is a true statement except under special circumstances that most people are unaware of and which amount to nothing of general concern.  The police themselves (and CC) not believing it amounts, in my argument, to special pleading.  Lots of groups distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians, but they remain civilians nonetheless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:00:50 AM
I"ve certainly heard people within the policing community refer to non-police as "civilians". Is that what is up for debate?

The debate is whether this terminology, which all agree is being used, is incorrect or not.

One side of the debate is that the use of this terminology is incorrect. According to that side, "civilian" is a term that applies to the distinction between the military and everyone who is not in the military, and has no other legitimate use. If this is true, then police - who are not in the military - are "civilians", nothing more.

The other side of the debate is that the use of the term had more than one meaning. In the context of the laws of war and peace, the police are "civilians", just as the first side states. However, in the context of law enforcement, the police are not "civilians" (and in this context, an off-duty member of the armed forces, who is subject to civilian law rather than military law, would be a "civilian" as well).

That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.

Pretty much how I see it, and why it is weird that one side seems to be arguing vehemently that the cops are NOT civilians. What is the itilityu in making that distinction in this context? If anything, it would be an argument that police should be treated "more specially" rather then insisting that they do, in fact, have to abide by the basic standards that we hold each other to.

It's such a bizarre hill to die on.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 11:46:57 AM
Actually, off-duty military and naval members in the US are still subject to the UCMJ and would be tried in military courts unless they waive jurisdiction (or don't have it, in e.g. non-criminal infractions like speeding or jaywalking).

[spock eyebrow] Fascinating [/spock eyebrow]

I am far from an expert on military courts or jurisdiction.

But I have prosecuted off-duty CF members for fairly routine crimes like drunk driving.  While I do not doubt grumbler in this, it seems surprising to me that military courts would have jurisdiction over purely "civilian" offences.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:57:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Pretty much how I see it, and why it is weird that one side seems to be arguing vehemently that the cops are NOT civilians. What is the itilityu in making that distinction in this context? If anything, it would be an argument that police should be treated "more specially" rather then insisting that they do, in fact, have to abide by the basic standards that we hold each other to.

It's such a bizarre hill to die on.

Who is dying on a hill?

And I'm not arguing that police need to be treated "more specially".

But I do get my back up that language that I have used for 15+ years, and that others in my world use, is somehow wrong (or even offensive).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:57:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Pretty much how I see it, and why it is weird that one side seems to be arguing vehemently that the cops are NOT civilians. What is the itilityu in making that distinction in this context? If anything, it would be an argument that police should be treated "more specially" rather then insisting that they do, in fact, have to abide by the basic standards that we hold each other to.

It's such a bizarre hill to die on.

Who is dying on a hill?

And I'm not arguing that police need to be treated "more specially".

But I do get my back up that language that I have used for 15+ years, and that others in my world use, is somehow wrong (or even offensive).


The key is "your world". I use language in my world all the time that I have zero expectation has relevance outside of it. Nor do I think that makes my use of it "wrong". Language is always contextual.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on April 21, 2021, 12:02:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:57:43 AM

But I do get my back up that language that I have used for 15+ years, and that others in my world use, is somehow wrong (or even offensive).

But this happens all the time. When you know better, you do better.

Would you rather be ignorant of the problems with your language?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 21, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.
I think this is the crux of the issue, and why this debate started in the first place.  No matter the terms used, the problem that exists is the "us vs. them" dynamic when it comes to police and the people being policed. 

I think the reason people take issue with the word "civilian" in particular is that it places the "civilians" in a subservient position.  In the other situation where you have armed people and civilians interacting, it's the occupying military forces and the local civilian population.  The occupying forces may have policies and rules of engagement in order to be "nice" to the locals, but at the end of the day they hold all the power in the relationship, and any misunderstanding will end much worse for the civilian than for the occupying military. 

Taking the terms to the police world may risk taking the same attitude to the police world, especially with many cops being war veterans these days.  When you take that attitude to the police world, police officers may start forgetting that they don't have to respect "civilians" to be nice, they have to respect them because they have no choice over the matter.  The "civilians" are citizens, citizens have rights, and respecting them is not up to your discretion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on April 21, 2021, 12:05:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
itilityu

I would like to take this time to say "OVEN MITTS, AHOY!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 12:06:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:57:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Pretty much how I see it, and why it is weird that one side seems to be arguing vehemently that the cops are NOT civilians. What is the itilityu in making that distinction in this context? If anything, it would be an argument that police should be treated "more specially" rather then insisting that they do, in fact, have to abide by the basic standards that we hold each other to.

It's such a bizarre hill to die on.

Who is dying on a hill?

And I'm not arguing that police need to be treated "more specially".

But I do get my back up that language that I have used for 15+ years, and that others in my world use, is somehow wrong (or even offensive).


The key is "your world". I use language in my world all the time that I have zero expectation has relevance outside of it. Nor do I think that makes my use of it "wrong". Language is always contextual.

That's fine.  It doesn't have to have relevance outside of the criminal justice world.  I said pages and pages ago that language was contextual.

But what doesn't mean my use of the word civilian in this context is wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 21, 2021, 12:02:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:57:43 AM

But I do get my back up that language that I have used for 15+ years, and that others in my world use, is somehow wrong (or even offensive).

But this happens all the time. When you know better, you do better.

Would you rather be ignorant of the problems with your language?

Bring them up all you want.

I have heard the comments, and reject my language as being problematic.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 12:09:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 11:57:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Pretty much how I see it, and why it is weird that one side seems to be arguing vehemently that the cops are NOT civilians. What is the itilityu in making that distinction in this context? If anything, it would be an argument that police should be treated "more specially" rather then insisting that they do, in fact, have to abide by the basic standards that we hold each other to.

It's such a bizarre hill to die on.

Who is dying on a hill?

And I'm not arguing that police need to be treated "more specially".

But I do get my back up that language that I have used for 15+ years, and that others in my world use, is somehow wrong (or even offensive).


The key is "your world". I use language in my world all the time that I have zero expectation has relevance outside of it. Nor do I think that makes my use of it "wrong". Language is always contextual.

Its not just BB's world.  As already pointed out, referring to the police as not being civilians is wide spread throughout the US.  You have already acknowledged that you are aware of that.  You are arguing for narrow understanding of the word that does not accept that wider use.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 21, 2021, 12:15:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 21, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.
I think this is the crux of the issue, and why this debate started in the first place.  No matter the terms used, the problem that exists is the "us vs. them" dynamic when it comes to police and the people being policed. 

I think the reason people take issue with the word "civilian" in particular is that it places the "civilians" in a subservient position.  In the other situation where you have armed people and civilians interacting, it's the occupying military forces and the local civilian population.  The occupying forces may have policies and rules of engagement in order to be "nice" to the locals, but at the end of the day they hold all the power in the relationship, and any misunderstanding will end much worse for the civilian than for the occupying military. 

Taking the terms to the police world may risk taking the same attitude to the police world, especially with many cops being war veterans these days.  When you take that attitude to the police world, police officers may start forgetting that they don't have to respect "civilians" to be nice, they have to respect them because they have no choice over the matter.  The "civilians" are citizens, citizens have rights, and respecting them is not up to your discretion.


We are also questioning by what right do they consider themselves non-civilian.  The distinction seems arbitrary and the only function is create a barrier between police and the public.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on April 21, 2021, 12:16:39 PM
Anyone know any good histories covering how occupying forces dealt with police of the occupied nations? I've had "Marianne in Chains" on my wishlist for a while now, but am wondering if there is something more specific out there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2021, 12:22:50 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 21, 2021, 12:16:39 PM
Anyone know any good histories covering how occupying forces dealt with police of the occupied nations? I've had "Marianne in Chains" on my wishlist for a while now, but am wondering if there is something more specific out there.

This might be of interest - also interesting in the context of our discussion, it refers to the police as a civilian force as opposed to military peacekeepers.

https://www.routledge.com/From-Congo-to-Kosovo-Civilian-Police-in-Peace-Operations/Hansen/p/book/9780198516736
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
The debate is whether this terminology, which all agree is being used, is incorrect or not.

One side of the debate is that the use of this terminology is incorrect. According to that side, "civilian" is a term that applies to the distinction between the military and everyone who is not in the military, and has no other legitimate use. If this is true, then police - who are not in the military - are "civilians", nothing more.

The other side of the debate is that the use of the term had more than one meaning. In the context of the laws of war and peace, the police are "civilians", just as the first side states. However, in the context of law enforcement, the police are not "civilians" (and in this context, an off-duty member of the armed forces, who is subject to civilian law rather than military law, would be a "civilian" as well).

That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.

Actually, off-duty military and naval members in the US are still subject to the UCMJ and would be tried in military courts unless they waive jurisdiction (or don't have it, in e.g. non-criminal infractions like speeding or jaywalking).

The only sense in which police don't seem to be civilians is in their own minds and some bureaucratic shorthand.  Certainly the consequences of police mentally divorcing themselves from the civilian populace cannot be good.

My argument is simply that "the police are civilians" is a true statement except under special circumstances that most people are unaware of and which amount to nothing of general concern.  The police themselves (and CC) not believing it amounts, in my argument, to special pleading.  Lots of groups distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians, but they remain civilians nonetheless.

In Canada at least, members of the military are subject to the civilian courts unless the offence is under particularly military jurisdiction. The distinction between the two is somewhat complex - in some cases, members of the military on active duty must be tried in civilian courts (such as fir serious offences committed in Canada, such as murder); in others, the military prosecutor has discretion, and so some cases may be tried in either military or civilian courts.

Source:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/jag/military-justice-overview.pdf

Obviously, different countries may do things differently.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 01:04:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2021, 09:00:50 AM
I"ve certainly heard people within the policing community refer to non-police as "civilians". Is that what is up for debate?

The debate is whether this terminology, which all agree is being used, is incorrect or not.

One side of the debate is that the use of this terminology is incorrect. According to that side, "civilian" is a term that applies to the distinction between the military and everyone who is not in the military, and has no other legitimate use. If this is true, then police - who are not in the military - are "civilians", nothing more.

The other side of the debate is that the use of the term had more than one meaning. In the context of the laws of war and peace, the police are "civilians", just as the first side states. However, in the context of law enforcement, the police are not "civilians" (and in this context, an off-duty member of the armed forces, who is subject to civilian law rather than military law, would be a "civilian" as well).

That seems to be what the debate is about.

To my mind, what is animating the debate is the concern, most prevalent in the US but that exists elsewhere, that the police are attempting to grab a special status through the use of this term, which can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes - militarization of the police, insistence on special rights for police accused of violence, and the like. So using that distinction is seen as a bad idea. This I think has coloured the debate over whether it is logical or proper usage.

Pretty much how I see it, and why it is weird that one side seems to be arguing vehemently that the cops are NOT civilians. What is the itilityu in making that distinction in this context? If anything, it would be an argument that police should be treated "more specially" rather then insisting that they do, in fact, have to abide by the basic standards that we hold each other to.

It's such a bizarre hill to die on.

I don't think the other side is arguing vehemently that police are not civilians. I think they are arguing that the use of the distinction by the police and others in certain contexts, which we know happens, isn't incorrect.

The distinction is this: arguing that police are not civilians implies that he word is not contextual - that police go into the same category as members of the armed forces. Everyone acknowledges that this is not the case, that police are not in that category for the purposes of the laws of war and peace. What the other side is saying, is that in the context of policing, using "civilians" to mean "non-police" is not improper - and isn't intended to mean that the police have duties under the Geneva convention etc. it is just shorthand, one in wide use.

Certainly another term can be used (for example, "non-police"). Any word that distinguishes the two creates the good old euphemism treadmill, when the problem remains (that is, abuse of police authority).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 02:10:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2021, 01:04:32 PM
I don't think the other side is arguing vehemently that police are not civilians. I think they are arguing that the use of the distinction by the police and others in certain contexts, which we know happens, isn't incorrect.

The first shot fired in the discussion was from Beebs (Reply #6675 on: April 12, 2021, 09:28:16 pm):
QuoteCivillians have always excluded police.

The rest of the discussion followed from that.

QuoteThe distinction is this: arguing that police are not civilians implies that he word is not contextual - that police go into the same category as members of the armed forces. Everyone acknowledges that this is not the case, that police are not in that category for the purposes of the laws of war and peace. What the other side is saying, is that in the context of policing, using "civilians" to mean "non-police" is not improper - and isn't intended to mean that the police have duties under the Geneva convention etc. it is just shorthand, one in wide use.

But that's just it:  I don't believe that the use of the term "civilian" to distinguish them from police is in wide use.  Some police use it, and some prosecutors use it.  Some languish lawyers claim that they use it because they enjoy being contrary.   And that's pretty much it.  US law doesn't use it.  International law doesn't.  The news media don't.  The US federal government lists federal police positions under their civilian regulations and job openings.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2021, 03:36:54 PM
I think after 9 days and nearly 300 posts, it's time to give that one a rest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on April 21, 2021, 03:56:46 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2021, 02:10:08 PM
But that's just it:  I don't believe that the use of the term "civilian" to distinguish them from police is in wide use.  Some police use it, and some prosecutors use it.  Some languish lawyers claim that they use it because they enjoy being contrary.   And that's pretty much it.  US law doesn't use it.  International law doesn't.  The news media don't.  The US federal government lists federal police positions under their civilian regulations and job openings.

But here's the thing grumbler - the law uses language in a very special and particular way.  There's even a whole separate dictionaries for how words are legally defined.  But that has only a vague and passing familiarity to how words are used in the real world.

You have numerous examples now (including *ahem* civilian dictionaries) that include non-police being included as civilians depending on the circumstance.  I would suggest that is in fact wide use.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 21, 2021, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2021, 03:36:54 PM
I think after 9 days and nearly 300 posts, it's time to give that one a rest.

It would be the civil thing to do.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 21, 2021, 04:50:18 PM
If the participants are enjoying it they should continue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on April 21, 2021, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 21, 2021, 04:32:08 PM
It would be the civil thing to do.

Are you trying to police the thread?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 21, 2021, 07:09:16 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 21, 2021, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 21, 2021, 04:32:08 PM
It would be the civil thing to do.

Are you trying to police the thread?

I am not trying to be uncivil, no.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on April 21, 2021, 07:15:40 PM
We need another angle (argument over definitions) :

Spaniards here, is your Civil Guard a para-military body, a civilian structure or a straight up armed military organization? 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Monoriu on April 21, 2021, 07:53:37 PM
In Hong Kong, the police is part of the civil service.  Within the police department, there are two main kinds of employees.  Police, which is considered a disciplinary service, and "civilians".  Basically generic, non-police, non-disciplinary civil servants who take care of some back office operations like finance, filing, general office administration etc.  The police do explicitly call these folks "civilians".  I guess this heavily implies that they do not consider themselves civilians.  This isn't new.  They simply follow the British tradition. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 22, 2021, 04:31:10 AM
Quote from: mongers on April 21, 2021, 07:15:40 PM
We need another angle (argument over definitions) :

Spaniards here, is your Civil Guard a para-military body, a civilian structure or a straight up armed military organization?


I honestly don't know.  They are gendarmes, right?  I think that might actually be a military force.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 22, 2021, 04:50:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 22, 2021, 04:31:10 AM
Quote from: mongers on April 21, 2021, 07:15:40 PM
We need another angle (argument over definitions) :

Spaniards here, is your Civil Guard a para-military body, a civilian structure or a straight up armed military organization?


I honestly don't know.  They are gendarmes, right?  I think that might actually be a military force.

Guardia Civil is indeed a police force with military status.  :smarty:

So yes, gendarmes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 25, 2021, 12:50:53 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ez1EhZTXsAETokG?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: celedhring on April 25, 2021, 12:54:22 PM
Is the margin of error 23 full percentage points or is it a smaller unit? That's one truly shitty poll if it's the former...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on April 25, 2021, 12:58:07 PM
Quote from: celedhring on April 25, 2021, 12:54:22 PM
Is the margin of error 23 full percentage points or is it a smaller unit? That's one truly shitty poll if it's the former...

2.3 points:

(https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2021/04/25/a8cc0e6a-3529-49f9-a425-93059402b348/9662da59e8f938dbd57436cd484f6bbb/17-chauvintrialparty.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 25, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
To me that indicates that pushing against obvious police excess is a winning issue for Democrats. Most of their voters and independents agree with it, while the GOP are split basically right down the middle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2021, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
To me that indicates that pushing against obvious police excess is a winning issue for Democrats. Most of their voters and independents agree with it, while the GOP are split basically right down the middle.

Sure, if every killing by cop from now on is a Floyd v Chauvin.  Take that video of the shooting of the 13 year old for example.  That's not as clear cut IMO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 25, 2021, 02:42:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2021, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
To me that indicates that pushing against obvious police excess is a winning issue for Democrats. Most of their voters and independents agree with it, while the GOP are split basically right down the middle.

Sure, if every killing by cop from now on is a Floyd v Chauvin.  Take that video of the shooting of the 13 year old for example.  That's not as clear cut IMO.

Definitely. Hence the "obvious".

It'll be interesting to see to what degree the GOP can leave Chauvin behind and press on the cases that split the Dem base and unite their own (whichever cases those may be).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 25, 2021, 03:30:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2021, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
To me that indicates that pushing against obvious police excess is a winning issue for Democrats. Most of their voters and independents agree with it, while the GOP are split basically right down the middle.

Sure, if every killing by cop from now on is a Floyd v Chauvin.  Take that video of the shooting of the 13 year old for example.  That's not as clear cut IMO.

There's absolutely no need for the Democrats to carefully evaluate each case and react accordingly. I think (and the polls seem to agree) that this is an issue they can hammer the GOP on.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past time Democrats get to fighting dirty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 25, 2021, 03:44:39 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 25, 2021, 03:30:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2021, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
To me that indicates that pushing against obvious police excess is a winning issue for Democrats. Most of their voters and independents agree with it, while the GOP are split basically right down the middle.

Sure, if every killing by cop from now on is a Floyd v Chauvin.  Take that video of the shooting of the 13 year old for example.  That's not as clear cut IMO.

There's absolutely no need for the Democrats to carefully evaluate each case and react accordingly. I think (and the polls seem to agree) that this is an issue they can hammer the GOP on.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past time Democrats get to fighting dirty.


I'm kind of on board with this.  We have been parsing good shootings and bad shootings for years now, and it hasn't done much at all.  Maybe if we assume that all shooting are criminal we can get some movement on this.  I'm just fucking sick of this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2021, 03:54:32 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 25, 2021, 03:30:38 PM
There's absolutely no need for the Democrats to carefully evaluate each case and react accordingly. I think (and the polls seem to agree) that this is an issue they can hammer the GOP on.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past time Democrats get to fighting dirty.

What a truly bizarre post.  Like the thoughts of an alien species.

What does fighting dirty entail when it comes to prosecuting cops who kill?  Convicting some innocent ones too just pour encourager les autres?  Drawing and quartering the guilty ones?

Since Jake and I see to be on more or less the same page when it comes to the relationship between the poll and future action, maybe you should take up that issue with him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 02:40:55 AM
I've seen Dems talking up the Ma'Khia Bryant shooting in the same vein as how they were talking up the George Floyd case, even though the context is vastly different.

That's what I'm talking about. Making people pissed off enough and disgusted enough that maybe they'll vote (D) next time, or vote for that "radical" dem in a primary and then eventually seeing some changes.

I'm not talking about prosecution of cops. They almost always get off because your system is fucked, so change the system. Dems need to learn how to win and for that they need to start fighting dirty.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 02:57:11 AM
So fighting dirty means trying to get more votes, with the implication that they haven't been trying to get more votes up till now?

That doesn't make a single bit of sense.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2021, 04:16:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 02:57:11 AM
So fighting dirty means trying to get more votes, with the implication that they haven't been trying to get more votes up till now?

That doesn't make a single bit of sense.
He means go on the offensive with regards to cultural issues in order to whip up public support and votes.

Have ad campaigns and non-profits orgs pushing their agenda and have their voices in the media hammer it and have their state legislators always passing laws on it.

For one example of how the right does this, is via the issue of gun rights and the NRA. It doesn't matter that the public is about 80% in favor of tighter gun control. The NRA and conservatives in the media are always on the attack. Their state legislators are always pushing bills to loosen the rules.

Nothing the left does on that issue compares, even though they have vastly more public support. For the last forty years they've mostly run scared on this and almost every other issue.

Calling it "playing dirty" is wrong in my opinion. The democrats for the most part have not even played the game.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 26, 2021, 08:13:20 AM
I think what is being demanded here is that the left play by the same rules as the right, which means being perfectly ok just straight up fucking lying about what is happening in order to scare people into voting their way.

So that would mean doing things like taking specific examples of police incompetence or even police brutality, and convincing people that this is actually the norm, and all police are like that, and if you don't vote our way, right now, you will probably be murdered by a cop at any moment.

Just like the right tells their base that if they don't vote GOP, why, Obama is going to knock on their door and take their guns and caravans of raping brown illegals are going to overrun the country.

We already have the left pushing their agenda. They can certainly do that better.

But the *reason* I am a progressive instead of a conservative is that I think the right has abandoned any pretense of arguing or governing in good faith. I think the crafters of the right message, the media faces that create their narrative and the politicians that then get elected and reinforce it and push it themselves, have abandoned any even token attempt to link that narrative to what THEY actually know is the truth. They simply do not care if they know that Obama was not born in Kenya, and they do not care if they know perfectly well that the election was not "stolen".

If the left is going to operate in that same way, then there really isn't any reason to support them at all. We are going to end up with shitty outcomes and policies based on lies and bullshit anyway.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 08:53:13 AM
Ignoring the morality of playing dirty aside, the right and left are just fundamentally different in some respects.  What works for the right will not necessarily work for the left.  The right and the left have different emotions to which you can effectively appeal in order to bypass critical thinking.  I also question the assumption that not playing dirty is necessarily a disadvantage; not every war is won by the side most willing to engage in atrocities.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 26, 2021, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

I would suggest that treating all shootings as criminal would be quite a bit of movement on the issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 09:44:27 AM
This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 26, 2021, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 09:44:27 AM
This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

Dems only want to use police brutality as a cudgel?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 10:00:46 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 09:44:27 AM
This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from?

I mean, I did state my opinion that this could be a useful political issue to push for the dems, and Zoupa kind of leaned into it. Neither of us are setting dem policy or voting for the party, not being American. A few American languishites did comment, but I didn't see any of that as indicating that they (much less dems as a whole) are looking "to use it at a cudgel".

Presumably you're seeing this desire to use it as a cudgel (without caring about the victims) elsewhere?

I'm also curious what makes you conclude that not using the issue as a cudgel (if indeed that's happening) is going to be a more effective way to resolve the underlying issues?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2021, 04:16:30 AM
He means go on the offensive with regards to cultural issues in order to whip up public support and votes.

Have ad campaigns and non-profits orgs pushing their agenda and have their voices in the media hammer it and have their state legislators always passing laws on it.

For one example of how the right does this, is via the issue of gun rights and the NRA. It doesn't matter that the public is about 80% in favor of tighter gun control. The NRA and conservatives in the media are always on the attack. Their state legislators are always pushing bills to loosen the rules.

Nothing the left does on that issue compares, even though they have vastly more public support. For the last forty years they've mostly run scared on this and almost every other issue.

Calling it "playing dirty" is wrong in my opinion. The democrats for the most part have not even played the game.

I still don't know what you think Zoupa wants when he says fight dirty.  "Go on the offensive," "push," and "hammer" are just changing one set of euphemisms for another set.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 10:41:59 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.

You're being kind of vague dude.  Purposely or not, I don't know.

Are you talking about things like Julian Castro's tweets?  You want more red meat for the BLM crowd?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.
I think it's going to be a lot harder to get some movement on the issue when you start off discrediting yourself.  You lose power to effect change when you fail to correlate your reaction to the circumstances of what you're reacting to.  When someone keeps harping on you no matter what you do or why you do it, you eventually start thinking that their issue is with your personally, and not with what you're doing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:51:36 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 10:41:59 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.

You're being kind of vague dude.  Purposely or not, I don't know.

Are you talking about things like Julian Castro's tweets?  You want more red meat for the BLM crowd?

Alright I'm out. We're not getting each other.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:52:41 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.
You lose power to effect change when you fail to correlate your reaction to the circumstances of what you're reacting to.

Says who?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 10:54:11 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:52:41 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.
You lose power to effect change when you fail to correlate your reaction to the circumstances of what you're reacting to.

Says who?
I don't know how you have your forum set up, but on my end, you can look to the left.  It shows "DGuller" for me.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 10:54:24 AM
It is going to be tough to win on gun control when things are this polarized and you have a filibuster. Even without the filibuster the senate is 50-50 and 2 democrats are from Montana and West Virginia.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 10:00:46 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 09:44:27 AM
This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from?

Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.
I think it's going to be a lot harder to get some movement on the issue when you start off discrediting yourself.  You lose power to effect change when you fail to correlate your reaction to the circumstances of what you're reacting to.  When someone keeps harping on you no matter what you do or why you do it, you eventually start thinking that their issue is with your personally, and not with what you're doing.


I disagree.  Trump didn't get elected by careful analysis of immigration policy or distinguishing between legal immigrants, illegal immigrants or asylum seekers.  He won because he said the same thing over and over and over again.  The last four years have taught us that nuance doesn't do much for you in politics.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.

The Democrats hammered health care in 2017-18 and won big.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:08:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
Trump didn't get elected

FYP

How did crazy GOP being crazy help them in Georgia?  They pissed away what should have been layup seats for them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 11:24:35 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:08:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
Trump didn't get elected

FYP

How did crazy GOP being crazy help them in Georgia?  They pissed away what should have been layup seats for them.


Okay, what do you suggest?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 11:26:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

Okay, fair enough.

While I think there's a real opportunity for the Democrats to make some gains on this issue, I concede that they shouldn't put Raz in charge of developing and executing the strategy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 10:54:24 AM
It is going to be tough to win on gun control when things are this polarized and you have a filibuster. Even without the filibuster the senate is 50-50 and 2 democrats are from Montana and West Virginia.

I think there are two ways to win on gun control.

Wait for gun nuts to die out, then repeal the 2nd Amendment.

Devise a screening mechanism that can differentiate, with a reasonable degree of certainty, between those who will commit psycho mass shootings and those who won't.  Give licenses only to the latter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on April 26, 2021, 12:01:45 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 10:00:46 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 09:44:27 AM
This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from?

Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

Is Raz representative of one side?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 12:08:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 10:54:24 AM
It is going to be tough to win on gun control when things are this polarized and you have a filibuster. Even without the filibuster the senate is 50-50 and 2 democrats are from Montana and West Virginia.

I think there are two ways to win on gun control.

Wait for gun nuts to die out, then repeal the 2nd Amendment.

Devise a screening mechanism that can differentiate, with a reasonable degree of certainty, between those who will commit psycho mass shootings and those who won't.  Give licenses only to the latter.

It seems like there is solid majority support for increased screening and restrictions on more militarized guns. It seems like those would be viable ideas, but that would probably require toning down the rhetoric rather than amplifying it (assuming you would need to get some GOP support and vulnerable dems on board).

Alternatively, outside of the legislative process, putting pressure on gun manufacturers and sellers of guns. This is obviously already happening with lawsuits after shootings, and pressuring banks / investment vehicles to exclude those entities from financing or investment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 12:14:03 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.

The Democrats hammered health care in 2017-18 and won big.

Kinda proving my point there. They never hammered big on gun control.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 26, 2021, 12:24:47 PM
I am glad we are backing away from demands that the left "play dirty" like the right.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 12:35:53 PM
I don't think it's about playing dirty - I think in the US (and UK) the right is better at politics and the left is worse. The left should try to be better at politics.

I think Biden's quite good at it and they could do worse than listen to him.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:40:31 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 12:35:53 PM
I don't think it's about playing dirty - I think in the US (and UK) the right is better at politics and the left is worse. The left should try to be better at politics.

I think Biden's quite good at it and they could do worse than listen to him.
I agree that the left should be much better at being pragmatic and practical in the art of politics, and politics can sometimes be a rough sport (there is a vice grip out there that really needs to embrace Joe Manchin's testicles).  I think that's different from embracing the concept of big lies, because evidently truth doesn't matter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 12:45:54 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 12:35:53 PM
I don't think it's about playing dirty - I think in the US (and UK) the right is better at politics and the left is worse. The left should try to be better at politics.

I think Biden's quite good at it and they could do worse than listen to him.

I don't get it on this issue. The Senate right now is 50-50. Health care is a great message to hammer home because that plays well everywhere--it is a straight up winning issue for Democrats.

Gun control is probably a losing or at least neutral issue in Montana and West Virginia. But you need those states (or states like those) to be viable in the senate. You could of course say fuck those states, and focus on flipping a state like Florida to make up for the loss of those seats, but will you really win by spending time talking about guns vs. health care?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:40:31 PM
I agree that the left should be much better at being pragmatic and practical in the art of politics, and politics can sometimes be a rough sport (there is a vice grip out there that really needs to embrace Joe Manchin's testicles).  I think that's different from embracing the concept of big lies, because evidently truth doesn't matter.
I agree in general - though personally I think the Democrats need Manchin far more than he needs them.

But I think there is a fear of "the lie" or the "untruth" on the left partly in reaction to Trump. They've sort of panicked themselves into politics by fact-checkers - which persuades no-one who wasn't already on your side. Facts are great, but they're not enough - you need a story. You can use facts to embellish and decorate a story - Bill Clinton is still unmatched in his ability to do this - but if your rebuttal or your agenda is just facts then while it may provide a perverse thrill for think tankers, it's useless for political purposes. I think in the US especially the Democrats have always had a weakness for facts and policy wonkishness at the expense of story and narrative and emotion which is what moves people to vote.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 12:51:41 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:40:31 PM
(there is a vice grip out there that really needs to embrace Joe Manchin's testicles)

Disagree.  Manchin is only a Democrat because he wants to be.  He would have an easier time winning his seat as a Republican.  The Democratic leadership has essentially zero leverage on the guy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 12:51:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:40:31 PM
(there is a vice grip out there that really needs to embrace Joe Manchin's testicles)

How and why? I mean, you do that and he flips parties and he probably could actually win reelection.

Trump won West Virginia by almost 40 points. There is a pretty good argument that Joe Manchin is toast in 2024 no matter how moderate he votes, because the democratic brand is dead in West Virginia at this point. So get all the votes you can out of him right now because he is a dead man walking. But you have to convince him of that, and if tomorrow he decides to be a republican, McConnell would probably give him whatever committee chairmanships he wants. Leverage is really limited, and he is probably the only option to make that seat a democratic one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
I agree in general - though personally I think the Democrats need Manchin far more than he needs them.
Right now, yes.  However, the problem with holding people by their balls is that if situation ever changes, your own pitch may change as a result.  At some point the Democrats will have either more than 50 or less than 50, and Joe might suffer from some extreme lack of good will within his party then.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 12:52:29 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 12:51:47 PM
How and why? I mean, you do that and he flips parties and he probably could actually win reelection.

Trump won West Virginia by almost 40 points. There is a pretty good argument that Joe Manchin is toast in 2024 no matter how moderate he votes, because the democratic brand is dead in West Virginia at this point. So get all the votes you can out of him right now because he is a dead man walking. But you have to convince him of that, and if tomorrow he decides to be a republican, McConnell would probably give him whatever committee chairmanships he wants. Leverage is really limited, and he is probably the only option to make that seat a democratic one.

Too late. :nelson:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 12:54:41 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 12:45:54 PM
I don't get it on this issue. The Senate right now is 50-50. Health care is a great message to hammer home because that plays well everywhere--it is a straight up winning issue for Democrats.

Gun control is probably a losing or at least neutral issue in Montana and West Virginia. But you need those states (or states like those) to be viable in the senate. You could of course say fuck those states, and focus on flipping a state like Florida to make up for the loss of those seats, but will you really win by spending time talking about guns vs. health care?
My point is simpler. I think Republicans are better at having a story, at message discipline and at not having their debates/fights aired in the public based on the mistaken opinion that anyone cares about relatively small policy differences.

I'm not sure if gun control or police violence is a good, election-winning issue. My instinct is you're right that healthcare is probably better - and, if the US economy is booming, in 2022 I'd just be running on that and getting in behind Joe.

Also I could be wrong but surely gun control is a pointless issue to fight before youv'e changed the complexion of the Supreme Court?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Right now, yes.  However, the problem with holding people by their balls is that if situation ever changes, your own pitch may change as a result.  At some point the Democrats will have either more than 50 or less than 50, and Joe might suffer from some extreme lack of good will within his party then.
I don't really get this.

How would he suffer? It's not going to hurt him with re-election. If there's a point where he has less leverage because the Democrats have over 50 or under 50 - how much leverage would he have otherwise?

I just don't see an upside in being tough with the guy you need to pass anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 01:56:46 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Right now, yes.  However, the problem with holding people by their balls is that if situation ever changes, your own pitch may change as a result.  At some point the Democrats will have either more than 50 or less than 50, and Joe might suffer from some extreme lack of good will within his party then.
I don't really get this.

How would he suffer? It's not going to hurt him with re-election. If there's a point where he has less leverage because the Democrats have over 50 or under 50 - how much leverage would he have otherwise?

I just don't see an upside in being tough with the guy you need to pass anything.
He might lose out on committee assignments, he might lose out on getting things done for his constituents.  It may not be done simply out of spite, but you have a limited amount of anything, so someone is going to be left happier than someone else after everything is doled out.  The guy who played kingmaker too much is probably not going to be left happy after his stint as kingmaker is over.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 02:03:16 PM
Conversely, if there's a better margin in the senate for the Democrats Manchin will be able to vote against more stuff to maintain his "centrist" credentials. So it's not all bad from his perspective.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 02:06:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 02:03:16 PM
Conversely, if there's a better margin in the senate for the Democrats Manchin will be able to vote against more stuff to maintain his "centrist" credentials. So it's not all bad from his perspective.
Yeah - and he's going to lose the good stuff if the Democrats lose anyway (not least because I think while the Democrats are bad at politics and would probably try to reward some moderate Republicans, Republicans are good at politics and would try to pick Manchin off).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on April 26, 2021, 02:27:16 PM
Yeah, I don't really know how Manchin ought to play this.

On the one hand, he should be telling his voters "Look, I am a guy who is really a Republican who is getting all these goodies because the Dems think I am one of them!". That means he has to have goodies to deliver.

I think both the Dems and Manchin have to navigate pretty carefully.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 02:30:55 PM
I think there has to be a negotiated settlement between Democrats and Manchin.  Some things, like election protection laws, should be non-negotiable:  if you're against it or play dumb ("let's get 10 Republicans on board"), then fuck you.  On the other hand, with other things which will play very badly in WV, allow him to publicly kill some of them.  Democrats are better off with Manchin than with a Republican, but only if Manchin actually remembers he's a Democrat at least some of the time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 02:37:43 PM
I think that settlement has been in place for a while. From what I understand Manchin is a pretty consistent party line vote when push comes to shove, and on key things (like appointments, budget, etc). Are there many examples where the senate Dems were all on board with something except Manchin, and that made the difference?

As I understand it, Manchin is typically either one of several Dems not on board (when something is doomed already) or against the Dem mainstream when some GOP are on board (so his opposition is symbolic).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on April 26, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 02:37:43 PM
I think that settlement has been in place for a while. From what I understand Manchin is a pretty consistent party line vote when push comes to shove, and on key things (like appointments, budget, etc). Are there many examples where the senate Dems were all on board with something except Manchin, and that made the difference?

As I understand it, Manchin is typically either one of several Dems not on board (when something is doomed already) or against the Dem mainstream when some GOP are on board (so his opposition is symbolic).
Yeah - I mean you got a pretty high level of covid stimulus, and I think infrastruture will happen too. I don't think you get the talk of Biden having had a pretty successful (and surprisingly radical) 100 days without Manchin.

From what I've read Manchin is basically fine with higher taxes and big spending, but will vote against stuff that's a culture war tripwire - which I think would actually be popular in the rest of the US too but is perfect for West Virginia. He's certainly a far, far more reliable bet than pinning the entire nation's hopes on Susan Collins which is the alternative.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on April 26, 2021, 02:54:06 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2021, 02:30:55 PM
I think there has to be a negotiated settlement between Democrats and Manchin.  Some things, like election protection laws, should be non-negotiable:  if you're against it or play dumb ("let's get 10 Republicans on board"), then fuck you.  On the other hand, with other things which will play very badly in WV, allow him to publicly kill some of them.  Democrats are better off with Manchin than with a Republican, but only if Manchin actually remembers he's a Democrat at least some of the time.

But you can never say "fuck you." The stimulus passed 50-50. Nominees can move 50-50 and he has supported all of them but 1 so far. A USSC justice may get through 50-50.

He also ran as a super centrist candidate. He isn't a dude that is suddenly turning more conservative. Schumer was cool running him in West Virginia understanding that he maybe supported them just 2 in 3 times on really tough issues. He is probably the only democrat on the planet that could win in a +40% trump state. It is a really bad look to get super centrist guys elected and then start giving them ultimatums to support stuff they never were on board with and are super unpopular in their states. A better strategy would be to get 3 or 4 Joe Manchin's elected, so that you can afford any one or two of them defecting on an issue.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 26, 2021, 11:26:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

Okay, fair enough.

While I think there's a real opportunity for the Democrats to make some gains on this issue, I concede that they shouldn't put Raz in charge of developing and executing the strategy.


You're loss.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 03:11:14 PM
You, on the other hand, are pure gain!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2021, 12:14:03 PM
Kinda proving my point there. They never hammered big on gun control.

Hammering gun control is fine, no disagreement there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 04:15:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 03:11:14 PM
You, on the other hand, are pure gain!


Fuck. 

Eh, you guys are probably right though...

"Raz, you can't have a zero tolerance policy regarding police shootings.  Raz, you can't be as bad as they are.  Raz, you can't claim that Police Station is a military target.  Raz, you can't put hand moisturizer in fried chicken.  I never get to have any fun. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 26, 2021, 04:32:36 PM
Hey, maybe that chicken is too dry.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2021, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2021, 04:15:25 PM
I never get to have any fun. :(

Playing one of the main characters in a Medieval morality play about accounting sounds like fun.  :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Maximus on April 26, 2021, 05:50:55 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 26, 2021, 04:32:36 PM
Hey, maybe that chicken is too dry.
It's not a hand though.

Except for the fingers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on May 04, 2021, 02:18:01 PM
This story is awful and the details are really horrific:
QuoteDalian Atkinson's head was kicked like a football by police officer, murder trial told
PC Benjamin Monk also alleged to have used Taser weapon on former Aston Villa player for six times longer than guideline limit
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Tue 4 May 2021 18.55 BST

A police officer murdered the former Aston Villa striker Dalian Atkinson, first shooting him with a Taser stun gun for 33 seconds, then kicking him in the head as though striking a football, causing his head to snap back violently, a jury heard on Tuesday.

PC Benjamin Monk denies murder and manslaughter following the incident on 15 August 2016 in Telford, Shropshire, which began at the home of Atkinson's father.

Monk is alleged to have also fired a Taser electrical weapon at Atkinson for nearly seven times longer than the standard five-second deployment.


Then, while Atkinson was on the ground and apparently unresponsive, the officer had kicked him in the head twice with such force that the imprint of Monk's laces was left on Atkinson's forehead, Birmingham crown court heard.

One witness, the jury heard, said that police "just started 'kicking the shit' out of him". The jury were told blood from Atkinson was found on Monk's boots and he had been heard to tell a paramedic: "He may be a bit bloody as I've had to kick him."

Another officer, PC Mary Ellen Bettley-Smith, is charged with assault causing actual bodily harm, which she denies. She is alleged to have struck Atkinson with a baton while he was on the ground. The jury heard the officers were in a relationship.


Atkinson achieved fame as a striker for Aston Villa football club in Birmingham. He retired from football in 2001.

Opening the prosecution case, Alexandra Healy QC told the jury that concerned neighbours had called police at about 1.30am, with Atkinson shouting and his behaviour being described as bizarre and erratic. Monk had used a Taser stun gun on Atkinson twice without any obvious effect. The former footballer had smashed a pane of glass and had been heard to shout that he was the Messiah and could not be hurt.

The jury heard Monk had fired the stun gun a third time, which felled Atkinson in the street outside his father's home.

Healy said that a neighbour, Victor Swinbourne, had seen what happened: "He saw the male officer Taser the black male ... When he fell he sort of collapsed, making no effort to brace himself.

"The male officer immediately gave him a couple of light kicks to the torso area using the top of his right foot. Mr Swinbourne described the initial kicks as tentative. He then saw the officer pull his right foot all the way back and give the black male a final massive and powerful kick, using the toe of his right foot as the male lay motionless on the floor.

"The officer's leg went straight back and snapped forwards as though he was kicking a football. He described the motion as similar to the sort of kick that would have been required to move a ball upfield with significant force ... He believed the kick was initially to the black male's chest but given the strength of the impact it looked as though the kick bounced off the chest and hit him in the chin, because he saw the black male's head snap back."

The jury was told that Swinbourne saw Atkinson in a foetal position on his right side, with officers sitting on him as they tried to handcuff him. The court was told the neighbour heard "the black male make some horrendous noises. He described the noise as a clear breathing difficulty as if he couldn't get any air into his lungs. He was shocked at how loud it was."

Another witness had said they heard a male officer shout "keep your head down" before stamping on Atkinson's head, Healy said. The witness had said Atkinson was not resisting.

The jury heard that when another officer arrived at the scene "he noticed PC Monk had his right foot rested on Dalian's head", the prosecutor told the court. Monk had been heard by two fellow PCs, who arrived later, saying he had kicked Atkinson in the head.

Healy said both officers would later say they had feared for their lives, and were so scared that they had at one point run away from the male, before tackling him.

Healy said: "At least two kicks were delivered by [PC Monk] to Dalian Atkinson's forehead with enough force to leave the imprints of the pattern of the laces from the top of his boot on two separate areas of Mr Atkinson's forehead.

"A number of neighbours living in Meadow Close witnessed this attack. Their view was that once Dalian Atkinson had fallen to the ground he was unresponsive and still. He was no longer posing any threat to the officers. Nonetheless the two officers set about him."


Healy said Atkinson had underlying health problems, but the force used had contributed to his death.

"On the night of Sunday 14th and early hours of Monday 15 August 2016 Dalian Atkinson's behaviour was disturbed and erratic," the jury heard. "They were confronted with a man who was clearly acting in a disturbed and erratic way. They were entitled to use reasonable force to defend themselves or to protect another.

"The prosecution do not criticise their conduct prior to the discharge of the third Taser cartridge.

"However, when the deployment of the third cartridge was completely effective, causing Dalian Atkinson to experience neuromuscular incapacitation and fall to the ground, the prosecution say it was not reasonable to continue to depress the Taser for 33 seconds.

"In kicking Dalian Atkinson in the head not once, but on two separate occasions, PC Monk was not, the prosecution say, acting in self-defence or in defence of another. He was no doubt angry that he had been put in fear by this man.

"He chose to take that anger out on Dalian Atkinson by kicking him in the head ... In kicking Dalian Atkinson to the head PC Monk can only have intended to cause really serious injury."

The jury were told that just over an hour after the use of force by police, Atkinson was dead: "The pathologists and intensive care expert instructed by the prosecution agree that whilst his underlying health conditions meant that Dalian Atkinson was at a greatly increased risk of dying, were it not for the third Taser deployment and the kicks to his head, Dalian Atkinson would not have died that night."

The trial continues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on May 06, 2021, 02:27:12 PM
Quote
Opening the prosecution case, Alexandra Healy QC told the jury that concerned neighbours had called police at about 1.30am, with Atkinson shouting and his behaviour being described as bizarre and erratic. Monk had used a Taser stun gun on Atkinson twice without any obvious effect. The former footballer had smashed a pane of glass and had been heard to shout that he was the Messiah and could not be hurt.

Let no one ever tell you that drugs are bad :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2021, 02:45:44 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 06, 2021, 02:27:12 PM
Quote
Opening the prosecution case, Alexandra Healy QC told the jury that concerned neighbours had called police at about 1.30am, with Atkinson shouting and his behaviour being described as bizarre and erratic. Monk had used a Taser stun gun on Atkinson twice without any obvious effect. The former footballer had smashed a pane of glass and had been heard to shout that he was the Messiah and could not be hurt.

Let no one ever tell you that drugs are bad :)

Don't let anyone tell you that untreated mental illness is no big deal.  :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on May 22, 2021, 07:28:40 AM
https://www.newschannel5.com/news/newschannel-5-investigates/you-shouldnt-be-able-to-breathe-officer-tells-man-before-he-dies

Quote'You shouldn't be able to breathe,' officer tells man before he dies

LEWISBURG, Tenn. (WTVF) — He repeatedly told deputies he could not breathe.

But the deputies and police officers he struggled with taunted him until he died.

An exclusive NewsChannel 5 investigation is raising questions about the death of William Jennette last May inside the Marshall County Jail in Lewisburg, Tennessee.

His daughter has filed a lawsuit against the county, the city of Lewisburg and several officers for the "beating, suffocation and resultant death" of Jennette.

Video obtained by NewsChannel 5 Investigates shows three Marshall County jailers called for police back-up on May 6 of last year after Jennette refused to get into a restraint chair.

When Lewisburg Police Officer Christopher Stallings ran into the room, Jennette yelled that corrections officers were trying to kill him.

Officers wrestled Jennette to the floor where he died minutes later.

"That just breaks my heart because he was someone worth knowing," said his daughter, Dominique Jennette.

The daughter said her 48-year-old father was terrified and desperately needed help.

"That's just something that really sticks with me, how scared he must have been and how alone he must have felt," Jennette said.

Jail logs show Jennette had been "hallucinating" and "detoxing" after being arrested two days earlier for resisting arrest, public intoxication and indecent exposure.

Officers had put him in a restraint chair the day before for his own protection because he was hitting his head on the cell wall.

Then, on May 6, officers tried again, and jail cameras show things escalated quickly.

"They should have been more aware. They should have been trained properly and they weren't," Dominique Jennette said.

Much of her lawsuit focuses on what happened after officers wrestled her father to the ground.

Jennette screamed for officers to get off his back. He was face down on the floor in handcuffs continuing to struggle.

"Go get leg restraints before you do anything else, go get leg restraints," an officer said as officers were on Jennette's back.

Seconds later, Jennette said for the first time he could not breathe.

But a female officer was not sympathetic.

"You shouldn't be able to breathe, you stupid b*****d," she exclaimed.

Officers stayed on Jennette's back and even bent his legs to his back, until finally one officer said be careful of suffocating him.

"Easy, easy -- remember asphyxiation, guys."

Another officer responded, "That's why I'm not on his lungs, to let him breathe."

Jennette's last words were: "I'm good."

But an officer with his knee on Jennette's back talked back to him.

"No, you ain't good. You're going to lay right there for a f*****g minute," the officer said.

We showed the video to law professor and former police officer Seth Stoughton. He's co-written a book, "Evaluating Police Uses of Force."

"That's the exact opposite of what generally accepted training has taught officers for the last 25 years," Stoughton said.

"When the handcuffs came on, they should have rotated the guy to his side."

He was disturbed by what he saw in the video.

Stoughton said police officers have been trained since the mid-1990s about the dangers of positional asphyxiation -- suffocating someone by putting pressure on their back while they are in what's called the prone position.

"There's approximately a three-minute, 43-second period after officers have applied handcuffs where they keep the individual in the prone position, and that's not acceptable," Stoughton said.

Jennette's daughters remember their dad as a father of five, who drove a cement truck to support them.

He had been arrested before but did not have a long rap sheet.

"All he wanted was help and all he got was hate. It's not right," said daughter Calli Jennette.

Dominique Jennette added, "There were so many who could have said this wasn't right, and no one said this wasn't right,"

The autopsy listed the cause of death as "acute combined drug intoxication" with meth in his system.

But it also listed "asphyxia" as a "contributory cause of death" and ruled it a homicide.

"It just feels like my heart is constantly being ripped out of my chest, and there's no peace to that," Dominique Jennette said.

The family hopes other departments learn from what happened to their dad.

"I want to go home, and I can't go home, because he's not there to take me home anymore," Calli Jennette said.

A grand jury looked at this case but decided not to bring criminal charges against the officers.

The sheriff and the attorney for the county in this case did comment on what happened.


(videos at the link)

It also kinda sounds like he should have been in a mental facility instead of a prison cell, maybe? :unsure:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on May 22, 2021, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 22, 2021, 07:28:40 AM
It also kinda sounds like he should have been in a mental facility instead of a prison cell, maybe? :unsure:
It seems like there a lot of people like that in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on May 22, 2021, 04:42:23 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 22, 2021, 07:28:40 AM
It also kinda sounds like he should have been in a mental facility instead of a prison cell, maybe? :unsure:

There really aren't many of those.  Mental hospitals that can house potentially dangerous patients are not common.  I think there may be two in the state of Missouri.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2021, 04:55:15 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 22, 2021, 07:28:40 AM
It also kinda sounds like he should have been in a mental facility instead of a prison cell, maybe? :unsure:

Probably, but for obvious reasons it isn't easy to involuntarily commit someone to a mental health facility.  And even if it were, this guy had only been arrested two days earlier, so the system wouldn't have had time to process him.

None of that has anything to do with the negligence and brutality of the officers, though.  His death was a consequence of their actions that they should have realized; his actions were not those that he could foresee would lead to death.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 09, 2021, 10:29:13 PM
Definitely doesn't look safe for the driver or the cop to pull over on a highway with that small a shoulder.
https://twitter.com/shawnavercher/status/1402779730802323459
QuoteThis is nuts. Nicole Harper was pulled over by an Arkansas state trooper. She pulled to the side, turned on her hazards, and looked for an exit.

He waited 20 seconds and then used a PIT maneuver to flip her car. She was pregnant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2021, 10:36:50 PM
Those are the kinds of thugs all too often employed by police departments, and the ugly incidents won't stop until that is no longer true.  There's no amount of training that will cure the serious problems with being human that Corporal Dunn has.

Highway patrolmen have murdered women in these kinds of stops.  It's crazy to try to kill them for wanting to stop in a safe place.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 10, 2021, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2021, 10:36:50 PM
Those are the kinds of thugs all too often employed by police departments, and the ugly incidents won't stop until that is no longer true.  There's no amount of training that will cure the serious problems with being human that Corporal Dunn has.

Highway patrolmen have murdered women in these kinds of stops.  It's crazy to try to kill them for wanting to stop in a safe place.

And in this case, it goes all the way to the top:

Quote
In a statement to Fox 16 after the Dunn incident, Arkansas State Police Colonel Bill Bryant said: "Over the past five years, Arkansas State Troopers have documented a 52 percent increase in incidents of drivers making a conscious choice to ignore traffic stops initiated by the troopers.

"Instead of stopping, the drivers try to flee. In more populated areas of the state, the incidents of fleeing from troopers have risen by more than 80 percent. The fleeing drivers pull away at a high rate of speed, wildly driving, dangerously passing other vehicles, showing no regard for the safety of other motorists, creating an imminent threat to the public.

"Should a driver make the decision to ignore the law and flee from police, state troopers are trained to consider their options."

Bryant added: "PIT has proven to be an effective tool to stop drivers who are placing others in harm's way. It has saved lives among those who choose to obey the law against those who choose to run from police. In every case a state trooper has used a PIT maneuver, the fleeing driver could have chosen to end the pursuit by doing what all law-abiding citizens do every day when a police officer turns on the blue lights—they pull over and stop."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 10, 2021, 11:50:26 AM
Also...it is really just unnecessary.

You caught them speeding?  Ok, it's not a high-speed chase for a felony suspect...you easily got their license plate number...just jot it down and arrange for them to get a nice fine/ticket in the mail.  Even if they did manage to actually evade/escape, it is easy enough to pick them up later at their home.

 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 10, 2021, 11:54:31 AM
52% increase, 80% increase ... how much in absolute numbers? I mean, has it gone from 5 to 9 or from 500 to 900?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on June 10, 2021, 11:55:00 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 10, 2021, 11:50:26 AM
Also...it is really just unnecessary.

You caught them speeding?  Ok, it's not a high-speed chase for a felony suspect...you easily got their license plate number...just jot it down and arrange for them to get a nice fine/ticket in the mail.  Even if they did manage to actually evade/escape, it is easy enough to pick them up later at their home.

Really hard to prove who is driving though.  And even in Canada failing to stop for police is usually a jailable offence.

Plus when someone goes into a high-speed chase even when the police break off the chase the suspect vehicle usually continues it's dangerous driving pattern for a good long while afterwards (I've probably seen dozens of videos from the police helicopter.

So grounds can sometimes certainly exist to use such tactics.  But in this case where the driver clearly signals an intention to pull over, and who is at anything but high speed?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 10, 2021, 12:47:49 PM
I've noticed/seems to me, that a lot of the problems that the police have in this and other situations (i.e. that case not long ago with the Army dude who was pepper-sprayed and pulled out of his vehicle) stems from an overall lack of patience.  Instead of trying to calmly talk someone down, deal with a low-confrontation/low-risk situation in a patient and deliberate manner, it is all too often a I-need-to-finish-this-now! approach.

Dude won't get out of his car, but isn't armed, not fighting?  Take the time and keep talking...there is no need to escalate just because you want to end the "standoff" quicker.

Lady isn't stopping for a speeding ticket fast enough?  Ok...lame, but it is easy to follow and wait.  Using the PIT maneuver as in this case is just an unnecessary, and dangerous escalation.

If the suspect escalates the situation (starts to actually fight, speed off/drive recklessly), then sure, respond appropriately.  But the police should never be the ones to escalate a situation...even with non-lethal force...just for the sake of obtaining compliance.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 17, 2021, 07:18:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZKRTL8YrU

All 50 members of Portland's riot unit resigned from that unit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2021, 07:30:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 17, 2021, 07:18:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZKRTL8YrU

All 50 members of Portland's riot unit resigned from that unit.

Man, wouldn't you like to be able to "resign" from any part of your job you don't like, while still collecting a full paycheck?

If these guys resigned from their assigned duties, then they resigned, period.  Portland PD shouldn't tolerate this "I'm resigning just from the work part, not the pay part."  All they get from retaining officers who think that they can pick and choose which duties they will allow themselves to be assigned is to encourage other cops from carrying out any of their own onerous duties.  This entitled attitude is what has ruined American policing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2021, 10:11:20 AM
If the PD is structured so that service on the riot units is voluntary - and my understanding that how it is set up in Portland - then they can withdraw from the units without losing their jobs. 

It's probably for the better as Portland shouldn't have riot police who believe its perfectly OK to beat defenseless people on the head with a baton.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on June 18, 2021, 11:39:04 AM
So are these officers going to support Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys openly now?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 18, 2021, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2021, 10:11:20 AM
If the PD is structured so that service on the riot units is voluntary - and my understanding that how it is set up in Portland - then they can withdraw from the units without losing their jobs. 

It's probably for the better as Portland shouldn't have riot police who believe its perfectly OK to beat defenseless people on the head with a baton.

How do you even find 50 non-hippies in Portland?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on June 18, 2021, 01:04:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 18, 2021, 11:50:34 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2021, 10:11:20 AM
If the PD is structured so that service on the riot units is voluntary - and my understanding that how it is set up in Portland - then they can withdraw from the units without losing their jobs. 

It's probably for the better as Portland shouldn't have riot police who believe its perfectly OK to beat defenseless people on the head with a baton.

How do you even find 50 non-hippies in Portland?

You get the Nazis who live around Portland.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2021, 01:12:04 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2021, 10:11:20 AM
If the PD is structured so that service on the riot units is voluntary - and my understanding that how it is set up in Portland - then they can withdraw from the units without losing their jobs. 

It's probably for the better as Portland shouldn't have riot police who believe its perfectly OK to beat defenseless people on the head with a baton.

It's kinda silly to allow police to refrain at will from law enforcement duties.  Given the reason that these cops are resigning (one of them was held accountable under the law for beating a defenseless person on the head with a baton) the voluntary system doesn't seem much of a guarantee that those actions won't happen.

The solution, it seems to me, is to require police to enforce the law within the law, whatever form of law enforcement is necessary, and keep them from beating innocent people by charging criminal cops with criminal charges, just like any other criminal.  Allowing cops to decline to enforce the law because they feel bad that they cannot commit criminal acts without consequences is madness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 18, 2021, 01:15:29 PM
It sort of feels like it's getting to the point that I think I've read of in some Eastern European countries where they basically had to fire everyone and start from the beginning because corruption was so ingrained. Here obviously the issue isn't corruption.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 18, 2021, 01:21:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 18, 2021, 01:15:29 PM
It sort of feels like it's getting to the point that I think I've read of in some Eastern European countries where they basically had to fire everyone and start from the beginning because corruption was so ingrained. Here obviously the issue isn't corruption.
In a way it is, it just involves power and privileges rather than money.  Corruption is merely misuse of power entrusted in you that you need to fulfill your duty for your own benefit.  The benefit doesn't have to be monetary.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 18, 2021, 01:22:55 PM
That's fair - and those cards that I think the NYPD were giving out for friends and family of cops is pure corruption. It's an absolute disgrace.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on June 18, 2021, 01:29:36 PM
In Germany, meanwhile, hardly a week passes where there isn't a leak of police chats that contain racist or other right wing messages and imagery.

Last week I read about a case of a police woman in Brandenburg. The vast majority of her circle of friends are members of the neo-nazi scene. At her wedding they took a group photo with Hitler salute. Her husband wore a swastika armband. She was fired. A court ordered her reinstated, as there was no proof that all of this affected her discharging of her duties neutrally. The police district that fired her decided not to appeal and has her on indefinite paid leave.

The SEK Frankfurt (SEK = Sondereinsatzkommando = SWAT) has been disbanded following the discovery of right wing chat messages. The TAZ (admittedly a left wing paper) has researched the police protecting the German parliament and have uncovered ex-members of the Reichsbürger movement (people who reject the Federal Republic as illegitimate state), who like extreme-right groups and posts on Facebook, share such messages in official internal chat groups or, in one case, show the Hitler salute in the break room.

30 soldiers of the German contingent in Lithuania have been ordered back following racist, antisemitic and other such messages and memes, and (filmed) sexual abuse of one comrade. And then we're not even talking about disappeared weapons and ammo etc.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on June 18, 2021, 01:31:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 18, 2021, 01:22:55 PM
That's fair - and those cards that I think the NYPD were giving out for friends and family of cops is pure corruption. It's an absolute disgrace.

If I recall, that was the union (often a very small point of separation, I know) that doing up the cards, not the NYPD itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Solmyr on June 19, 2021, 01:22:07 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 18, 2021, 01:29:36 PM
In Germany, meanwhile, hardly a week passes where there isn't a leak of police chats that contain racist or other right wing messages and imagery.

Finland had a case like that recently, when a constable was dismissed after his comments were uncovered where he fantasized about murdering (left-wing) government politicians.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on June 19, 2021, 02:43:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2021, 01:12:04 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 18, 2021, 10:11:20 AM
If the PD is structured so that service on the riot units is voluntary - and my understanding that how it is set up in Portland - then they can withdraw from the units without losing their jobs. 

It's probably for the better as Portland shouldn't have riot police who believe its perfectly OK to beat defenseless people on the head with a baton.

It's kinda silly to allow police to refrain at will from law enforcement duties.  Given the reason that these cops are resigning (one of them was held accountable under the law for beating a defenseless person on the head with a baton) the voluntary system doesn't seem much of a guarantee that those actions won't happen.

The solution, it seems to me, is to require police to enforce the law within the law, whatever form of law enforcement is necessary, and keep them from beating innocent people by charging criminal cops with criminal charges, just like any other criminal.  Allowing cops to decline to enforce the law because they feel bad that they cannot commit criminal acts without consequences is madness.

It seems bizarre that an employer accepts voluntary assignments. Sure, you take the wishes of the employee into account at all times unless you're a moron, but having a situation where the employee can unilaterally say "I don't want to do this task anymore so I won't, starting today" without quitting the job entirely is madness.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2021, 03:18:06 AM
Many urban police forces have trouble keeping enough staff.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2021, 06:01:22 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2021, 03:18:06 AM
Many urban police forces have trouble keeping enough staff.

Many XXX have trouble keeping enough staff.  Starting Salary for PPB is $66,934 with no experience and only a high school diploma.  https://www.joinportlandpolice.com/wages-benefits (https://www.joinportlandpolice.com/wages-benefits) 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2021, 08:41:06 AM
Possibly not enough to entice people for riot duty, idk.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2021, 10:04:11 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2021, 08:41:06 AM
Possibly not enough to entice people for riot duty, idk.

Riot duty gets them a 10% bonus, and another 50% if it is overtime.  And it really isn't about enticing police to enforce the law.  It's about requiring them to enforce the law or find another career (one that won't pay nearly as much, in most cases). 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on June 19, 2021, 10:27:36 AM
Well whatever way we find to motivate people to be police officers or serve riot duty, one of those methods should probably not be the guarantee you will not be held accountable for violations of the law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2021, 10:49:49 AM
But they don't have to find another career, there are police departments in less hazardous areas.

Anyway, just proffering a theory why the department lets them off the hook.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xlV2Hu_fGw

Footage of the Portland riot unit member's assault for those who have not seen it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2021, 07:31:53 PM
So the cop chased her down purely to assault her.  He wasn't interested in arrest, just assault.

It has to be the cop culture that turns these guys into thugs.  There are more thugs on any force than can be explained by even self-selection.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 23, 2021, 08:22:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 04, 2021, 02:18:01 PM
This story is awful and the details are really horrific:
QuoteDalian Atkinson's head was kicked like a football by police officer, murder trial told
PC Benjamin Monk also alleged to have used Taser weapon on former Aston Villa player for six times longer than guideline limit
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Tue 4 May 2021 18.55 BST
An update on this - one of the officers has been cleared of murder but convicted of manslaughter (the first manslaughter conviction of a police officer in the course of their duties for 30 years). The jury are still deliberating on the other officer so the strict reporting rules still apply to this article:
QuotePolice officer guilty of manslaughter of ex-footballer Dalian Atkinson
PC Benjamin Monk of West Mercia force convicted at Birmingham crown court of 2016 killing
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Wed 23 Jun 2021 12.47 BST
First published on Wed 23 Jun 2021 11.48 BST

A police officer has been convicted of the manslaughter of the former professional footballer Dalian Atkinson, after firing an electric stun gun into him for 33 seconds and kicking him twice in the head as he lay on the ground.

PC Benjamin Monk, of the West Mercia force, was convicted of the killing by a jury at Birmingham crown court.

Monk was accused of lying in court about his account, and of kicking and stamping on Atkinson's head while he was barely conscious on the ground. He is the first police officer to be convicted of manslaughter during the course of their duties in more than three decades.

Atkinson was kicked with such force his blood was found in the laces of Monk's police issue boots.

The jury reached its verdicts on Monk after 18 hours and 48 minutes of deliberation. They first acquitted him of murder, but then unanimously convicted him of manslaughter.


They are continuing to consider their verdicts on his co-accused, PC Mary Ellen Bettley-Smith, who denies actual bodily harm for striking Atkinson with a baton while he was on the ground.

Details of the unlawful violence the jury found Monk had used were only made public at trial almost five years after Atkinson's death.

Atkinson, from Telford, Shropshire, was pronounced dead 70 minutes after the incident on 15 August 2016.


He had gone to his childhood home in Meadow Close, which he had bought with the money he made from being a professional footballer, for his father Ernest. Shortly after 1.30am, a neighbour called the police because Atkinson, 48, was causing a disturbance.

Atkinson achieved fame as a striker for Aston Villa, and also played clubs in England, Spain and Turkey. He retired from football in 2001.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on June 23, 2021, 12:29:58 PM
Not be pendantic about what is clearly something horrific, but this is the second time I've seen this called out in a story about this incident:

"Atkinson was kicked with such force his blood was found in the laces of Monk's police issue boots."

How is there being blood on his laces evidence of any particular force? I mean, if he is bleeding, it does not require any force at all to get the blood on something else - just contact...right?

And if you kick someone in the head hard enough to cause them to bleed, wouldn't there be blood pretty much all over the place?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2021, 01:31:25 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2021, 12:29:58 PM
Not be pendantic about what is clearly something horrific, but this is the second time I've seen this called out in a story about this incident:

"Atkinson was kicked with such force his blood was found in the laces of Monk's police issue boots."

How is there being blood on his laces evidence of any particular force? I mean, if he is bleeding, it does not require any force at all to get the blood on something else - just contact...right?

And if you kick someone in the head hard enough to cause them to bleed, wouldn't there be blood pretty much all over the place?

One presumes that this is being mentioned because it was part of the prosecution's case (else how would the reporter know) and that therefor the issue of where blood appeared on PC Monk's boots was significant.  It could be just a random observation by the reporter, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on June 25, 2021, 03:06:50 PM
22.5 years!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2021, 04:44:06 PM
Chauvin!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2021, 04:44:38 PM
Sentence!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on June 25, 2021, 05:50:37 PM
Word!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on June 25, 2021, 05:54:02 PM
Vague!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 25, 2021, 11:19:40 PM
They're always saying "What if there was a good guy with a gun?" Well...

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1408628603626176517

QuoteThe chief said that the bystander's actions saved lives and that what he did "can only be described as decisive, courageous and effective."

...
Bystander Who Intervened in Shooting of Officer Was Fatally Shot by Police

The police in Arvada, Colo., said a good Samaritan who fatally shot a gunman who had just killed a police officer was himself shot by responding officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on June 25, 2021, 11:54:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 25, 2021, 03:06:50 PM
22.5 years!

More than expected, that's for sure.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on June 29, 2021, 09:22:49 AM
Eight years in the Dalian Atkinson case - the other officer was not convicted:
QuotePolice officer who killed Dalian Atkinson jailed for eight years
PC Benjamin Monk convicted last week of manslaughter of ex-footballer after kicking his head while he lay on the ground

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/197c0801195eff82213c420f07eb1c943d8370cd/0_0_3500_2101/master/3500.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=9b37099a3d8e74d6a4732a804150ac99)
Benjamin Monk. A jury found his use of a stun gun for 33 seconds and at least two kicks to Dalian Atkinson's head killed him. Photograph: Jacob King/PA
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Tue 29 Jun 2021 15.04 BST

The police officer who killed the former footballer Dalian Atkinson, kicking him in the head while he was down on the ground, has been jailed for eight years.

PC Benjamin Monk was convicted last week of manslaughter after a jury found his use of a stun gun for 33 seconds and at least two kicks to Atkinson's head killed him.

Monk, 43, was sentenced on Tuesday by Judge Melbourne Inman QC at Birmingham crown court.

Monk, who serves with the West Mercia force, is the first British police officer in more than three decades to be convicted of manslaughter during the course of his duties.

His conviction came after he set upon Atkinson on 15 August 2016. Police were called to a disturbance with Atkinson acting in an erratic and out of character fashion having gone to Meadow Close, Telford, where his father lived.

The late-night incident involving police officers and Atkinson, 48, lasted six minutes.

The judge said he accepted that the officer was dealing with a difficult situation that evening with Atkinson in a "form of psychotic state" and being threatening.

Inman said: "For five minutes you were dealing with a very unpredictable and no doubt frightening situation where you were confronted by a man who had to be restrained and controlled because of the level of threat he posed ... It was thereafter, when Mr Atkinson was on the floor that you used force that went beyond that which was reasonable in the circumstances."


Atkinson had shouted he was the "Messiah", smashed glass in a door and the judge said Monk had tried to calm him down.

The judge accepted Monk's genuine remorse and that the excessive violence he used was out of character, with senior colleagues praising his work as an officer.

Atkinson was kicked with such force that his blood was found in the laces of Monk's police-issue boots, and imprints from them found on the forehead of the former Aston Villa striker.

One witness said when Atkinson was kicked while on the ground he head snapped back.

Monk was seen with his boot rested on Atkinson's head. Atkinson by then was barely conscious and would be pronounced dead within 70 minutes.

The judge said Monk's time in prison would be more difficult because he was a police officer, but his job also was an aggravating factor.

Inman said: "The public entrust powers to the police which they expect to be used for the common good of society.

"The sentence must reflect the importance of maintaining public confidence in our police. You have let yourself and the force down. Although they were difficult, you failed to act appropriately in the circumstances as they developed and you used a degree of force in delivering two kicks to the head which was excessive and which were a cause of Mr Atkinson's death."


After his conviction, Monk is expected to face a fasttrack disciplinary hearing and be sacked from the police, which he joined in 2002.

The judge told Monk he would be eligible for release after serving two-thirds of his sentence.

Edit: Statement from Atkinson's family:
QuotePC Monk used horrendous violence against Dalian, who was in an extremely vulnerable position in mental health crisis and needed help.

This was a callous attack and a terrible abuse of a police officer's position of trust.

We pay tribute to all bereaved families of black men who've died at the hands of the police and whose fight for justice has not led to successful prosecutions.

It shouldn't take death of a famous footballer for the criminal justice system to work properly.

Edit: And sentencing remarks which has more details for people who are interested:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/R-v-Monk-Sentencing-Remarks-Amended.pdf
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on July 03, 2021, 06:44:57 PM
Quote
Massachusetts armed group arrested after stand-off with police

Yeah, progress.

edit:
Oh I wonder if skin colour had anything to do with the decision?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 03, 2021, 07:52:59 PM
A police encounter with armed citizens that ended with no shots fired.  Take notes, other police forces.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 03, 2021, 07:56:36 PM
I have noticed that police are more hesitant to go in guns blazing when they are outnumbered and outgunned.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2021, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 03, 2021, 06:44:57 PM
edit:
Oh I wonder if skin colour had anything to do with the decision?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFtiSKh3PIc

Possibly
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on July 04, 2021, 09:14:05 AM
On the theme of police thinking (though really, perhaps more of a hit on the old-school conservative law-and-order mindset)...

I am currently watching some old episodes of Dragnet (the later, 1960's episodes in this case)  One of them, targeting pornography, had this little gem of a line (not from Friday, but a cop responsible for investigating obscene material)..."there is nothing wrong with constitutional rights, but when they are used to break the law, or cheat around it, it makes the job almost impossible."

I think there is something backwards there... :hmm:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 04, 2021, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2021, 07:56:36 PM
I have noticed that police are more hesitant to go in guns blazing when they are outnumbered and outgunned.
Now you understand why Republicans don't want any gun control.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on July 11, 2021, 10:09:26 PM
TikTok video shows woman on American Airlines plane duct-taped to her seat (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/travel/news/tiktok-video-shows-woman-on-american-airlines-plane-duct-taped-to-her-seat-after-she-tried-to-open-the-door-mid-flight/ar-AAM18IW?li=AAggNb9)

So... she tried to open the door midflight, then she bit and assaulted flight attendants, so she was restrained like this.  I admit, seeing this first, not knowing the context, it looked like a heavy handed intervention by an air marshall.  Knowing she tried to open the door though, I fail to see how American Airlines could have safely maintained her otherwise, without disrupting too much of the flight.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2021, 10:22:19 PM
They need to give flight attendants tasers and hand cuffs and build little tiny cages in the planes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 09:38:38 AM
Is there an air marshall on every single flight?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 12, 2021, 09:55:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 09:38:38 AM
Is there an air marshall on every single flight?

No, there aren't enough marshals for that.  The mechanism by which marshals are assigned is classified, though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on July 12, 2021, 10:30:33 AM
I have zero problem with this.  Remember the shoe bomber?  Passengers lashed him to a seat with their belts.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 12, 2021, 10:31:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2021, 10:30:33 AM
I have zero problem with this.  Remember the shoe bomber?  Passengers lashed him to a seat with their belts.

Absolutely. It may not look great out of context but if what was claimed is true that woman was a danger to herself and others.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 12, 2021, 10:39:51 AM
Duct taping her to someone else's seat instead of her own would just have been weird.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 26, 2021, 09:54:43 AM
Maybe not quite the right thread - but:
QuotePolice Are Telling ShotSpotter to Alter Evidence From Gunshot-Detecting AI
Prosecutors in Chicago are being forced to withdraw evidence generated by the technology, which led to the police killing of 13-year-old Adam Toledo earlier this year.
by Todd Feathers
26.7.21

On May 31 last year, 25-year-old Safarain Herring was shot in the head and dropped off at St. Bernard Hospital in Chicago by a man named Michael Williams. He died two days later.

Chicago police eventually arrested the 64-year-old Williams and charged him with murder (Williams maintains that Herring was hit in a drive-by shooting). A key piece of evidence in the case is video surveillance footage showing Williams' car stopped on the 6300 block of South Stony Island Avenue at 11:46 p.m.—the time and location where police say they know Herring was shot.

How did they know that's where the shooting happened? Police said ShotSpotter, a surveillance system that uses hidden microphone sensors to detect the sound and location of gunshots, generated an alert for that time and place.

Except that's not entirely true, according to recent court filings.

That night, 19 ShotSpotter sensors detected a percussive sound at 11:46 p.m. and determined the location to be 5700 South Lake Shore Drive—a mile away from the site where prosecutors say Williams committed the murder, according to a motion filed by Williams' public defender. The company's algorithms initially classified the sound as a firework. That weekend had seen widespread protests in Chicago in response to George Floyd's murder, and some of those protesting lit fireworks.

But after the 11:46 p.m. alert came in, a ShotSpotter analyst manually overrode the algorithms and "reclassified" the sound as a gunshot. Then, months later and after "post-processing," another ShotSpotter analyst changed the alert's coordinates to a location on South Stony Island Drive near where Williams' car was seen on camera.


(https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1626895018946-williams-reclassified-photo.png?resize=800)
A screenshot of the ShotSpotter alert from 11:46 PM, May 31, 2020 showing that the sound was manually reclassified from a firecracker to a gunshot.

"Through this human-involved method, the ShotSpotter output in this case was dramatically transformed from data that did not support criminal charges of any kind to data that now forms the centerpiece of the prosecution's murder case against Mr. Williams," the public defender wrote in the motion.

The document is what's known as a Frye motion—a request for a judge to examine and rule on whether a particular forensic method is scientifically valid enough to be entered as evidence. Rather than defend ShotSpotter's technology and its employees' actions in a Frye hearing, the prosecutors withdrew all ShotSpotter evidence against Williams.


The case isn't an anomaly, and the pattern it represents could have huge ramifications for ShotSpotter in Chicago, where the technology generates an average of 21,000 alerts each year. The technology is also currently in use in more than 100 cities.

Motherboard's review of court documents from the Williams case and other trials in Chicago and New York State, including testimony from ShotSpotter's favored expert witness, suggests that the company's analysts frequently modify alerts at the request of police departments—some of which appear to be grasping for evidence that supports their narrative of events.

Untested evidence

Had the Cook County State's Attorney's office not withdrawn the evidence in the Williams case, it would likely have become the first time an Illinois court formally examined the science and source code behind ShotSpotter, Jonathan Manes, an attorney at the MacArthur Justice Center, told Motherboard.

"Rather than defend the evidence, [prosecutors] just ran away from it," he said. "Right now, nobody outside of ShotSpotter has ever been able to look under the hood and audit this technology. We wouldn't let forensic crime labs use a DNA test that hadn't been vetted and audited."

Sam Klepper, senior vice president for marketing and product strategy at ShotSpotter, told Motherboard in an email that the company has no reason to believe the prosecutor's decision reflects a lack of faith in its technology.


ShotSpotter evidence and employee testimony has been admitted in 190 court cases, he wrote. "Whether ShotSpotter evidence is relevant to a case is a matter left to the discretion of a prosecutor and counsel for a defendant ... ShotSpotter has no reason to believe that these decisions are based on a judgment about the ShotSpotter technology," he said.

The Chicago Police Department, Cook County State's Attorney's Office, Mayor Lori Lightfoot's office, and Alderman Chris Taliaferro, who chairs the city council's public safety committee, did not respond to interview requests or questions.

A pattern of alterations

In 2016, Rochester, New York, police looking for a suspicious vehicle stopped the wrong car and shot the passenger, Silvon Simmons, in the back three times. They charged him with firing first at officers.

The only evidence against Simmons came from ShotSpotter. Initially, the company's sensors didn't detect any gunshots, and the algorithms ruled that the sounds came from helicopter rotors. After Rochester police contacted ShotSpotter, an analyst ruled that there had been four gunshots—the number of times police fired at Simmons, missing once.


Paul Greene, ShotSpotter's expert witness and an employee of the company, testified at Simmons' trial that "subsequently he was asked by the Rochester Police Department to essentially search and see if there were more shots fired than ShotSpotter picked up," according to a civil lawsuit Simmons has filed against the city and the company. Greene found a fifth shot, despite there being no physical evidence at the scene that Simmons had fired. Rochester police had also refused his multiple requests for them to test his hands and clothing for gunshot residue.

Curiously, the ShotSpotter audio files that were the only evidence of the phantom fifth shot have disappeared.

Both the company and the Rochester Police Department "lost, deleted and/or destroyed the spool and/or other information containing sounds pertaining to the officer-involved shooting," according to Simmons' civil suit. "Greene acknowledged at plaintiff's criminal trial that employees of ShotSpotter and law enforcement customers with an audio editor can alter any audio file that's not been locked or encrypted."

A jury ultimately acquitted Simmons of attempted murder and a judge overturned his conviction for possession of a gun, citing ShotSpotter's unreliability.

Greene—who has testified as a government witness in dozens of criminal trials—was involved in another altered report in Chicago, in 2018, when Ernesto Godinez, then 27, was charged with shooting a federal agent in the city.

The evidence against him included a report from ShotSpotter stating that seven shots had been fired at the scene, including five from the vicinity of a doorway where video surveillance showed Godinez to be standing and near where shell casings were later found. The video surveillance did not show any muzzle flashes from the doorway, and the shell casings could not be matched to the bullets that hit the agent, according to court records.

During the trial, Greene testified under cross-examination that the initial ShotSpotter alert only indicated two gunshots (those fired by an officer in response to the original shooting). But after Chicago police contacted ShotSpotter, Greene re-analyzed the audio files.

"An hour or so after the incident occurred, we were contacted by Chicago PD and asked to search for—essentially, search for additional audio clips. And this does happen on a semi-regular basis with all of our customers," Greene told the court, according to a transcript of the trial. He later ruled that there were five additional gunshots that the company's algorithms did not pick up.

Greene also acknowledged at trial that "we freely admit that anything and everything in the environment can affect location and detection accuracy."

ShotSpotter analysts "agree with the machine classification over 90% of the time," Klepper, from ShotSpotter, wrote to Motherboard. "In a tiny number of cases, our customers request us to perform a location analysis to validate the accuracy of the location. If we find an error, we provide a more accurate location to the customer to assist the investigation."

Prior to the trial, the judge ruled that Godinez could not contest ShotSpotter's accuracy or Greene's qualifications as an expert witness. Godinez has appealed the conviction, in large part due to that ruling.

"The reliability of their technology has never been challenged in court and nobody is doing anything about it," Gal Pissetzky, Godinez's attorney, told Motherboard. "Chicago is paying millions of dollars for their technology and then, in a way, preventing anybody from challenging it."

The evidence

At the core of the opposition to ShotSpotter is the lack of empirical evidence that it works—in terms of both its sensor accuracy and the system's overall effect on gun crime.

The company has not allowed any independent testing of its algorithms, and there's evidence that the claims it makes in marketing materials about accuracy may not be entirely scientific.


Over the years, ShotSpotter's claims about its accuracy have increased, from 80 percent accurate to 90 percent accurate to 97 percent accurate. According to Greene, those numbers aren't actually calculated by engineers, though.

"Our guarantee was put together by our sales and marketing department, not our engineers," Greene told a San Francisco court in 2017. "We need to give them [customers] a number ... We have to tell them something. ... It's not perfect. The dot on the map is simply a starting point."

In May, the MacArthur Justice Center analyzed ShotSpotter data and found that over a 21-month period 89 percent of the alerts the technology generated in Chicago led to no evidence of a gun crime and 86 percent of the alerts led to no evidence a crime had been committed at all.

Klepper disputed those findings to Motherboard, saying that "the data source used to draw their conclusions, on its own, results in an incomplete picture of an incident" because a gun may have been fired even if there is no documented police evidence that it was.

He also said that Greene's testimony in the San Francisco trial "had nothing to do with the determination of our actual historical accuracy rate. While marketing and sales have appropriate input on our service level guarantees for our contracts, actual accuracy rates are based on detections that we record."

Meanwhile, a growing body of research suggests that ShotSpotter has not led to any decrease in gun crime in cities where it's deployed, and several customers have dropped the company, citing too many false alarms and the lack of return on investment.

One recent study of ShotSpotter in St. Louis found that ShotSpotter "has little deterrent impact on gun-related violent crime in St. Louis. [Automated gun detection systems] also do not provide consistent reductions in police response time, nor aid substantially in producing actionable results."

Klepper contested those and other research findings, saying that "the studies' conclusions do not reflect what we see."

He pointed to a 2021 study by New York University School of Law's Policing Project that determined that assaults (which include some gun crime) decreased by 30 percent in some districts in St. Louis County after ShotSpotter was installed. The study authors disclosed that ShotSpotter has been providing the Policing Project unrestricted funding since 2018, that ShotSpotter's CEO sits on the Policing Project's advisory board, and that ShotSpotter has previously compensated Policing Project researchers.

Chicago pushes back

Chicago is one of the most important cities in ShotSpotter's portfolio and is increasingly becoming a battleground over its use.

If a court ever agrees to examine the forensic viability of ShotSpotter, or if prosecutors continue to drop the evidence when challenged, it could have massive ramifications. From January 2017 through June 2021, ShotSpotter reported 94,313 gunfire incidents in the city, an average of 20,958 per year, according to data obtained by Motherboard through a public records request.

Chicago is ShotSpotter's second biggest client, after New York City, accounting for 13 percent of the company's revenue during the first quarter of 2021. But Chicago's $33 million contract with the company is coming to an end and city officials must decide this August whether or not to renew it.

Meanwhile, the city is grappling with new research, a rise in shootings, cases like the Williams and Godinez trials, and tragedies that have prompted renewed criticism of the technology.

It was a ShotSpotter alert in the early-morning hours of March 29 that dispatched police to a street in Little Village where they eventually shot and killed 13-year-old Adam Toledo, who was unarmed at the time.

That and other recent events have sparked a new campaign by community and civil rights groups in Chicago calling on city officials to drop ShotSpotter.


"These tools are sending more police into Black and Latinx neighborhoods," Alyx Goodwin, a Chicago organizer with the Action Center on Race and the Economy, one of the groups leading the campaign, told Motherboard. "Every ShotSpotter alert is putting Black and Latinx people at risk of interactions with police. That's what happened to Adam Toledo."'

Motherboard recently obtained data demonstrating the stark racial disparity in how Chicago has deployed ShotSpotter. The sensors have been placed almost exclusively in predominantly Black and brown communities, while the white enclaves in the north and northwest of the city have no sensors at all, despite Chicago police data that shows gun crime is spread throughout the city.

Community members say they've seen little benefit from the technology in the form of less gun violence—the number of shootings in 2021 is on pace to be the highest in four years—or better interactions with police officers.

"If you had relationships with any of the people on the block, you wouldn't need the technology, 'cause we could tell you," Asiaha Butler, president of the Resident Association of Greater Englewood, told Motherboard. Instead, the technology seems to have given police another excuse not to build relationships with residents. When shots ring out in the neighborhood, police may respond faster, but it's an "over-militarized police presence. You see a lot of them. It's not a friendly interaction," she said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 26, 2021, 11:16:45 AM
I don't know about the merits of this particular case, and I wouldn't want to make a judgment from a single article with a point to make, but in general I hate putting "post-processing" in scare quotes.  Not post-processing misleading data is just as dishonest as altering non-misleading data.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 26, 2021, 11:27:13 AM
It's called Enhanced Massaging Techniques. If you want to dominate the battlespace you really have little choice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on July 26, 2021, 11:38:44 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 26, 2021, 11:16:45 AM
I don't know about the merits of this particular case, and I wouldn't want to make a judgment from a single article with a point to make, but in general I hate putting "post-processing" in scare quotes.  Not post-processing misleading data is just as dishonest as altering non-misleading data.
Yeah - I think the wider question is how accurate it is more generally. Although 10% getting "fixed" by humans is about 2,000 incidents in Chicago it'd be interesting to have a breakdown of that - how many of the corrections are going in one way etc.

The worry I'd have is that it sort of goes the way of blood spatter or bitemark analysis.

I also find it interesting that this technology is in use because microphones/sound recording far more intrusive than CCTV for example.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 02, 2021, 06:20:09 PM
I remember videos of one of these incidents at the time and it was absolutely horrendous - glad he's been found guilty. Hopefully the sentence is suitable as well:
QuotePolice officer convicted of assaulting black man and 15-year-old boy
Judge says footage of PC Declan Jones of West Midlands force does not show police in a good light
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/46086139c4a89a251e9e7b96b1c1728e2552e6f3/473_265_1713_1027/master/1713.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=64d51d4e7e4c803f033e2f8c02faf78a)
PC Declan Jones, who has been found guilty of assaulting two members of the public on consecutive days during the first Covid lockdown. Photograph: Steve Parsons/PA
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Mon 2 Aug 2021 19.04 BST

A police officer has been convicted of assaulting two black males within two days, including kicking a 15-year-old boy when he was on the ground.

PC Declan Jones of West Midlands police denied the assaults but was convicted in a judgment delivered at Birmingham magistrates court on Monday.

The court found that Jones, 30, assaulted one man in Aston, Birmingham on 20 April last year, and the next day kicked and punched a 15-year-old boy in Newtown whom he wrongly suspected of having drugs.


The assaults came amid a police crackdown in the area, and the judge said the officer abused his power and may have been affected by "paranoia".

He was charged over three assaults alleged to have been committed over a four-day period in April in Birmingham weeks into the first lockdown.

He was acquitted of one, where he punched the nose of an alleged gang member wearing a stab-proof vest, and was convicted of two others.

District judge Shamim Qureshi said the attack on the child came despite his adopting a "surrender pose" after Jones and another officer stopped him, and bent his fingers back.

The judge said: "The next stage of this incident is shown on camera when [the victim] stops and stands with his hands wide open in the surrender pose. PC Jones then punches him to the ground, orders him to roll over on to his stomach and then kicks him, in my view like taking a free kick in football.

"PC Jones claimed that people have hidden weapons and even with their hands in the air or behind their head, they might reach for something.

"When a police officer can be seen on a video to kick at a 15-year-old boy on the ground, people would lose faith in the police force."


In the other assault, Jones kneed and punched a man four times whom he wrongly thought had stolen a bicycle, which in fact was his. The judge said Jones had abused his power.

Qureshi said of the officer: "I consider that PC Jones has a paranoia that everyone in a high-crime area has concealed weapons all over their body and I query whether he was suited to this type of work in those areas.

"Being in a high-crime area is not a justification for anyone being stopped and searched."


The judge in his ruling said the officer may be biased, contrasting with how he dealt with a white person. "There could be a suspicion of unconscious bias, although I make no findings about that," he said.

The judge also said the officer failed to obey Covid rules, failing to wear a mask, but threatened to fine one person under the pandemic measures. Jones at one point said he "did not believe in the virus", the court heard.


Qureshi said: "The videos, some of which were released on social media, are disastrous for public relations and it is embarrassing for the court to watch police officers selectively enforcing coronavirus laws when it suits them to order people off the streets and to go home, and yet those officers are ignoring the coronavirus laws and operational orders themselves. The videos do not show the police in a good light at all."

Jones will be sentenced on 10 September and was granted bail until then.

West Midlands police said Jones faced a disciplinary hearing. Its deputy chief constable, Vanessa Jardine, said: "PC Jones's use of force was totally inappropriate and it's right that he has been held accountable by the court today."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Josquius on August 03, 2021, 02:06:06 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2021, 11:38:44 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 26, 2021, 11:16:45 AM
I don't know about the merits of this particular case, and I wouldn't want to make a judgment from a single article with a point to make, but in general I hate putting "post-processing" in scare quotes.  Not post-processing misleading data is just as dishonest as altering non-misleading data.
Yeah - I think the wider question is how accurate it is more generally. Although 10% getting "fixed" by humans is about 2,000 incidents in Chicago it'd be interesting to have a breakdown of that - how many of the corrections are going in one way etc.

The worry I'd have is that it sort of goes the way of blood spatter or bitemark analysis.

I also find it interesting that this technology is in use because microphones/sound recording far more intrusive than CCTV for example.

I guess it depends how many mics it needs.
Fireworks and gun shots are pretty loud. If they've one mic on a phone mast coveting half a mile around I don't see much problem there.
If they've small hidden mics all over listening to people then that would be creepy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on August 03, 2021, 03:02:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 02, 2021, 06:20:09 PM
I remember videos of one of these incidents at the time and it was absolutely horrendous - glad he's been found guilty. Hopefully the sentence is suitable as well:

Yes, let's see what sentence he gets.

On a point not germane to the issue at hand:

QuoteJones at one point said he "did not believe in the virus", the court heard.

How does one not believe in COVID? It clearly exists despite whether or not one thinks masks, lockdowns etc. are necessary.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on August 03, 2021, 06:40:59 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2021, 03:02:18 AMOn a point not germane to the issue at hand:

QuoteJones at one point said he "did not believe in the virus", the court heard.

How does one not believe in COVID? It clearly exists despite whether or not one thinks masks, lockdowns etc. are necessary.
Totally - in a year of very weird conspiracy theories, the one I struggle with most is the idea that covid itself is a hoax :blink:

QuoteI guess it depends how many mics it needs.
Fireworks and gun shots are pretty loud. If they've one mic on a phone mast coveting half a mile around I don't see much problem there.
If they've small hidden mics all over listening to people then that would be creepy.
From what I've read they're normally about 15-20 per square mile - which feels like a lot to me and as I cay I think mics are more intrusive than cameras.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 03, 2021, 07:59:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2021, 03:02:18 AM
How does one not believe in COVID? It clearly exists despite whether or not one thinks masks, lockdowns etc. are necessary.

I'm baffled that apparently some people believe there's a conspiracy that causes governments to tank their economies with lockdowns (tanking the economy usually being a surefire way not to get re-relected) and using masks as a means of control. Control for what purpose? Just for the heck of it, apparently. I mean if reading and watching coverage of demonstrations these last 30 years have taught me anything it's that law enforcement HATES the idea of a masked public.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 05, 2021, 01:09:10 PM
When you start with 1 part Trumper loon and add just a little bit of Foucault, the results can get weird fast.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Neil on August 06, 2021, 03:48:47 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2021, 07:59:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2021, 03:02:18 AM
How does one not believe in COVID? It clearly exists despite whether or not one thinks masks, lockdowns etc. are necessary.

I'm baffled that apparently some people believe there's a conspiracy that causes governments to tank their economies with lockdowns (tanking the economy usually being a surefire way not to get re-relected) and using masks as a means of control. Control for what purpose? Just for the heck of it, apparently. I mean if reading and watching coverage of demonstrations these last 30 years have taught me anything it's that law enforcement HATES the idea of a masked public.
The interesting thing is that they think that the vaccines are deadly poisons that will kill people to reduce the population.  But why would the evil overlords want to kill the obedient people who get the shots and leave only the needlessly defiant fools who refuse to get the shot?  Wouldn't it make more sense to just make the disease be super-deadly? 

Conspiracy thinkers are not anywhere near as clever as they think they are.  Just pure contrarianism might get you likes on social media, but it's not a good way to organize your life. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on August 06, 2021, 03:58:34 PM
:yes: I've myself been slowly coming to a conclusion that anti-vax conspiracy theorists are not as clever as they think they are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 06, 2021, 05:37:21 PM
I can't tell how clever anti-vax conspiracy theorists think they are.   I could look up some of their discussions but there are other higher priority tasks like watching grass grow and counting backwards from 100,000.  Also I can't seem to find gibberish-English in google translate.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 06, 2021, 06:45:25 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 06, 2021, 03:58:34 PM
:yes: I've myself been slowly coming to a conclusion that anti-vax conspiracy theorists are not as clever as they think they are.

"Slowly"    :lol:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on August 06, 2021, 07:20:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2021, 03:02:18 AM
QuoteJones at one point said he "did not believe in the virus", the court heard.

How does one not believe in COVID? It clearly exists despite whether or not one thinks masks, lockdowns etc. are necessary.
A disease that does not make you sick...

don't you read our Facebook thread here? :P :P

Lot's of people believe it's a fake ploy by the Dems to discredit Trump, a plot by world governments to control their population, a fake disease invented to crash the economy, etc.

What? You only talked to sane people in an average day or what?? :P
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 27, 2021, 11:03:56 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/men-shot-rittenhouse-can-t-be-called-victims-during-trial-n1282466

QuoteMen shot by Rittenhouse can't be called 'victims' during trial, but 'rioters,' 'looters' are OK, judge rules

The judge said using the word "victim" to describe the men shot by Rittenhouse, including two who died, would be loaded with prejudice.

The three men Kyle Rittenhouse shot during a protest against police brutality in Wisconsin can be labeled rioters, looters or arsonists if the teenager's defense team has evidence to support the characterizations — but they shouldn't be called victims, the judge in his murder trial ruled this week.

The decision was among the ground rules Kenosha County Judge Bruce E. Schroeder set Monday for the trial, which is expected to begin Nov. 1.

Rittenhouse, 18, was charged with homicide and attempted homicide after he fatally shot Joseph Rosenbaum, 36, and Anthony Huber, 26, and wounded Gaige Grosskreutz in Kenosha during protests that followed the shooting of Jacob Blake, a Black man, by a white police officer.

He has pleaded not guilty to all charges and is free on bond.

Rittenhouse, who was 17 at the time of the shootings, used a semiautomatic rifle that resembles the made-for-the-military AR-15. He has said that he went to the demonstrations on Aug. 25, 2020, to help protect businesses from looters when he was attacked and that he acted in self-defense.

Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger had asked the judge to prohibit the defense from describing the men who were shot with pejorative language.

On Monday, Schroeder reiterated his reportedly long-held policy against allowing the word "victim" in his criminal trials until there is a conviction. He said the word is "loaded" with prejudgment.

Binger, the prosecutor, argued that the words "rioters," "looters" and "arsonists" are "loaded, if not more loaded," than "victim."

"You've not let me call someone a victim when it was proven," he told Schroeder.

Binger said that whatever the three men were up to before they were shot had nothing to do with their confrontations with Rittenhouse and his decision to open fire. He argued that Rittenhouse had not seen the three do anything criminal when he shot them.


Binger did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Attorneys for the families of the three men who were shot did not respond, either.

Grosskreutz, who has not been charged with a crime, sued the city, the county and law enforcement this month, alleging that Kenosha officials enabled a "band of white nationalist vigilantes" during the protest.

A spokesperson representing the city and the police department declined to comment. An attorney representing Kenosha County and the sheriff labeled the allegations as false.

"The lawsuit also fails to acknowledge that Mr. Grosskreutz was himself armed with a firearm when he was shot and Mr. Grosskreutz failed to file the lawsuit against the person who actually shot him," said the lawyer, Sam Hall.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2021, 11:10:44 AM
It's a debate that comes up from time to time.  Defence lawyers hate the word "victim", as it somehow assumes that a crime has been committed, when that's the purpose of the trial to determine.

As a Prosecutor, I argue that (just to pick an example) if someone has their house broken into they're a victim.  Maybe this particular Accused didn't do it - but the victim still had their stuff stolen.

So the preferred word is "complainant" - but I think that's just as loaded as "victim", as nobody likes someone who complains.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on October 27, 2021, 12:57:54 PM
In the Rittenhouse case, they can call the guys who were shot "recipients."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on October 27, 2021, 01:15:33 PM
Ron DeSantis is encouraging police officers who resigned or were terminated over vaccines or masks to move to Florida.  The state is giving out 6,000 bucks to any police officer who relocates to Florida over said issues.  Because insubordination, contempt for rules, and indifference to public health are desirable traits in armed law enforcement officers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on October 28, 2021, 12:42:12 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 27, 2021, 01:15:33 PM
Ron DeSantis is encouraging police officers who resigned or were terminated over vaccines or masks to move to Florida. 

I think most sane states are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2021, 08:00:02 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2021, 11:10:44 AM
It's a debate that comes up from time to time.  Defence lawyers hate the word "victim", as it somehow assumes that a crime has been committed, when that's the purpose of the trial to determine.

Yes the issue here is the glaring double standard not the victim ruling in itself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 19, 2021, 01:33:07 PM
Rittenhouse


:angry:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 01:52:01 PM
Weren't most observers predicting this outcome?

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 01:54:26 PM
Yeah based on the law and evidence it was pretty clear he was not guilty. The law sure makes it easy to kill people and not commit a crime though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:00:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 01:52:01 PM
Weren't most observers predicting this outcome?

Yes. Anyone paying even vague attention to the trial could tell the state was doing an awful job.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on November 19, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
Any chance of this going to appeals?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 02:03:53 PM
So I haven't been following the case directly, only from news reports.  And as a trial lawyer I know that's a terrible way to form an opinion about a case.

But the best commentary I've seen on the case from a few different sources was that Kyle Rittenhouse was a fool and an idiot for taking a rifle into that situation (and that right-wing attempts to make him a hero are disgusting) but that he was acting in self-defence.

What's most jarring for me is that Kyle Rittenhouse was a youth at the time.  In Canada there are laws prohibiting naming young offenders.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 19, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
Any chance of this going to appeals?

I don't think you can appeal a not guilty verdict can you?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:13:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 19, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
Any chance of this going to appeals?

I don't think you can appeal a not guilty verdict can you?

We have a constitutional right that prevents that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on November 19, 2021, 02:14:24 PM
Fair enough. But civil suits could still be brought?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:17:16 PM
Sure, but what are they going to get from Rittenhouse from a civil suit? Is he loaded with something other than an AR-15?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on November 19, 2021, 02:21:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:17:16 PM
Sure, but what are they going to get from Rittenhouse from a civil suit? Is he loaded with something other than an AR-15?
Give him a year on the conservative grift circuit and it might be worth it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on November 19, 2021, 02:22:09 PM
I'm just a lay person, but I think there are only two ways to get around double jeopardy.  The first way is if you can prove that the first jeopardy wasn't really a jeopardy, but a sham trial (i.e. you bribed the jurors or the judge).  The second way is that some crimes can also expose you to a federal prosecution for civil rights violations; it kind of is a cheap trick to get around double jeopardy prohibition at times, but it's also necessary to protect against situations where juries serve as accessories after the fact and nullify the victims' rights.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 02:24:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 19, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
Any chance of this going to appeals?

I don't think you can appeal a not guilty verdict can you?

I think there's some limited room to appeal if there were legal errors in the trial (such that the trial was never fair to begin with), but not on the grounds that 'the jury reached the wrong decision'.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:25:21 PM
I've only seen a New York Times video on YouTube about what happened. Law enforcement didn't exactly cover themselves in glory that night.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on November 19, 2021, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:25:21 PM
I've only seen a New York Times video on YouTube about what happened. Law enforcement didn't exactly cover themselves in glory that night.
:huh: What are you talking about?  They didn't do anything.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
I think he was talking about the prosecution.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:36:21 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 19, 2021, 02:22:09 PM
I'm just a lay person, but I think there are only two ways to get around double jeopardy.  The first way is if you can prove that the first jeopardy wasn't really a jeopardy, but a sham trial (i.e. you bribed the jurors or the judge).  The second way is that some crimes can also expose you to a federal prosecution for civil rights violations; it kind of is a cheap trick to get around double jeopardy prohibition at times, but it's also necessary to protect against situations where juries serve as accessories after the fact and nullify the victims' rights.

In case anyone is curious, the Swedish system (simplified) is that both sides can always appeal a decision in the lowest court (tingsrätt). Then the case is heard in the next higher court (hovrätt). This is normally the "final" verdict, but if there is some important point of legal principle that needs to be clarified the case can be appealed to the supreme court (högsta domstolen). So in effect it's very common for high profile cases to go to the hovrätt. For instance Christer Pettersson who was accused of murdering PM Olof Palme was found guilty in the tingsrätt but not guilty in the hovrätt. For a few different reasons the quality of a hovrätt is higher than the average tingsrätt, the tingsrätt can be a bit hit-and-miss.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:36:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 19, 2021, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:25:21 PM
I've only seen a New York Times video on YouTube about what happened. Law enforcement didn't exactly cover themselves in glory that night.
:huh: What are you talking about?  They didn't do anything.

^_^
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on November 19, 2021, 02:42:38 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:36:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 19, 2021, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 02:25:21 PM
I've only seen a New York Times video on YouTube about what happened. Law enforcement didn't exactly cover themselves in glory that night.
:huh: What are you talking about?  They didn't do anything.

^_^

:D
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 01:54:26 PM
Yeah based on the law and evidence it was pretty clear he was not guilty. The law sure makes it easy to kill people and not commit a crime though.

The lesson here is if you plan to attend a demonstration in Wisconsin where others are carrying a gun, take a gun yourself and make sure to shoot first at anyone you perceive to be threatening*



*note: may not work if you are non-white or fail to draw the most defense-friendly judge in the county,
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on November 19, 2021, 03:47:50 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ynsbrZ7/image.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on November 19, 2021, 03:52:05 PM
You guys are so lucky that black people only want equality. Feels like the day is approaching where they might want to get even.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 03:58:00 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on November 19, 2021, 03:52:05 PM
You guys are so lucky that black people only want equality. Feels like the day is approaching where they might want to get even.

Do you think Rittenhouse shot Black people?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on November 19, 2021, 04:04:11 PM
No, and I was expecting this response. He shot people who were protesting the shooting of a black man.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 04:05:32 PM
Cool, can you tell us what else you are expecting so we can skip the usual inanities?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:15:08 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 19, 2021, 01:54:26 PM
Yeah based on the law and evidence it was pretty clear he was not guilty. The law sure makes it easy to kill people and not commit a crime though.

The lesson here is if you plan to attend a demonstration in Wisconsin where others are carrying a gun, take a gun yourself and make sure to shoot first at anyone you perceive to be threatening*



*note: may not work if you are non-white or fail to draw the most defense-friendly judge in the county,

Pretty sure there was more evidence than just Rittenhouse "perceived" them to be threatening.  Rittnhouse at first attempted to avoid the first deceased, Rosenbaum, by running away, but Rosenbaum pursued.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on November 19, 2021, 04:26:52 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 04:05:32 PM
Cool, can you tell us what else you are expecting so we can skip the usual inanities?

Do you really have anything better to do anyways?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:30:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on November 19, 2021, 04:04:11 PM
No, and I was expecting this response. He shot people who were protesting the shooting of a black man.

You know, until today I thought the victims here were black.  And at least a couple of news reports I've seen have also said they were black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on November 19, 2021, 04:37:42 PM
I'm a bit (but only a bit) torn on this one.  Kyle Rittenhouse should go to prison for being the kind of person who goes out of his way in order to get a chance to legally kill someone.  OTOH, the argument that he genuinely feared for his life is very strong.

I'm much more concerned over the verdict of the Ahmaud Arbery trial.  If those guys get off, then there should be no peace.  If it is legal to chase a man down, prevent him from fleeing, point a gun at him and then kill him "in self defense" because he tried to defend himself, there is no justice.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on November 19, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 19, 2021, 02:21:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:17:16 PM
Sure, but what are they going to get from Rittenhouse from a civil suit? Is he loaded with something other than an AR-15?
Give him a year on the conservative grift circuit and it might be worth it.

Rittenhouse escaped a jail sentence, but he will likely be sentenced to 20 years of speaking at CPAC.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:47:49 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 19, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 19, 2021, 02:21:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:17:16 PM
Sure, but what are they going to get from Rittenhouse from a civil suit? Is he loaded with something other than an AR-15?
Give him a year on the conservative grift circuit and it might be worth it.

Rittenhouse escaped a jail sentence, but he will likely be sentenced to 20 years of speaking at CPAC.

Free trip to Budapest!!!111
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: alfred russel on November 19, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:17:16 PM
Sure, but what are they going to get from Rittenhouse from a civil suit? Is he loaded with something other than an AR-15?

This is the way it will play out:

Rittenhouse will sue media companies and other parties for libel and slander, likely getting a fortune
The families of the people he shot will sue him for a fortune, and likely get some or all of that fortune

There will be various other sorts of litigation.

The true fortune will be gained by attorneys.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on November 19, 2021, 04:48:55 PM
You get weird situations when you have a society where it's legal for a 17 y/o to walk around town with a rifle during curfew.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 19, 2021, 04:37:42 PM
I'm a bit (but only a bit) torn on this one.  Kyle Rittenhouse should go to prison for being the kind of person who goes out of his way in order to get a chance to legally kill someone.  OTOH, the argument that he genuinely feared for his life is very strong.

I'm much more concerned over the verdict of the Ahmaud Arbery trial.  If those guys get off, then there should be no peace.  If it is legal to chase a man down, prevent him from fleeing, point a gun at him and then kill him "in self defense" because he tried to defend himself, there is no justice.

I think the problem might simply be that it is legal to openly carry an AR-15 on the streets of Kenosha Wisconsin.  It's a deliberately provocative move that drew the somewhat understandable and predictable reaction.


Or what Brain just said.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on November 19, 2021, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:30:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on November 19, 2021, 04:04:11 PM
No, and I was expecting this response. He shot people who were protesting the shooting of a black man.

You know, until today I thought the victims here were black.  And at least a couple of news reports I've seen have also said they were black.


Saw a clip from MSNBC (who where thrown out of the trial yesterday for following the jury bus) where one of the guests was ranting on about how this was yet another example of white supremacy oppressing us.  I thought there should at least be a little sympathy for the victims who were not black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on November 19, 2021, 08:23:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
I think the problem might simply be that it is legal to openly carry an AR-15 on the streets of Kenosha Wisconsin.  It's a deliberately provocative move that drew the somewhat understandable and predictable reaction.

I don't think that the reaction of Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber were, in fact, "understandable and predictable" in the sense that they did what a reasonable person would do.  They wanted to punish him for being a vigilante, which, not ironically, meant that they made themselves into vigilantes.  The vigilante with a gun won over the ones without one, but that doesn't make Rosenbaum or Huber less than vigilantes.

Rittenhouse did a despicable thing, only slightly mitigated by the fact that he was a stupid teenager with delusions of grandeur.  Rosenblum and Huber (and Grosskreutz, to a lesser degree) did despicable things without the excuse that they were stupid teenagers.  Thinking that violence was the solution to social problems took all of the participants into the deadly encounter.

The judge, of course, should be retired immediately.  Without prejudice if he goes quietly, with extreme prejudice if he doesn't (yes, this is deliberately ironic, Zoupa).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2021, 11:23:48 PM
I saw in a clip that the dude who pursued him, got shot, and survived, was packing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on November 20, 2021, 03:19:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2021, 11:23:48 PM
I saw in a clip that the dude who pursued him, got shot, and survived, was packing.

And?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2021, 03:34:11 AM
And I ate some soup.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 20, 2021, 03:52:04 AM
What flavor?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 20, 2021, 04:30:14 AM
Chicken corn chowda
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on November 20, 2021, 07:23:20 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2021, 11:23:48 PM
I saw in a clip that the dude who pursued him, got shot, and survived, was packing.

If he had shot Rittenhaus, then he'd be walking free today instead. Moral of the story is shoot first.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 20, 2021, 07:41:30 AM
Be like Han.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on November 20, 2021, 07:59:21 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on November 20, 2021, 07:41:30 AM
Be like Han.

Shameless social credit score boost.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 20, 2021, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 19, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on November 19, 2021, 02:17:16 PM
Sure, but what are they going to get from Rittenhouse from a civil suit? Is he loaded with something other than an AR-15?

This is the way it will play out:

Rittenhouse will sue media companies and other parties for libel and slander, likely getting a fortune
The families of the people he shot will sue him for a fortune, and likely get some or all of that fortune

There will be various other sorts of litigation.

The true fortune will be gained by attorneys.

At least there's a happy ending :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 20, 2021, 11:33:03 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
I think the problem might simply be that it is legal to openly carry an AR-15 on the streets of Kenosha Wisconsin.

That's problem number 1; problem 2 is the apparent lack of a coherent provocation exception to justification by self-defense under Wisconsin law.  Put those two together and it's a formula for legal Wild West style shootouts with modern weapons.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on November 20, 2021, 01:26:04 PM
Somewhat concerning outcome to the case I think, I have nothing of any value to add to the commentary. I understand why he got off, but I don't think it's a good development. Rittenhouse is surely living out the preferred fantasy of every AR-15 owner with a punisher sticker on their truck around the country. Killing people for political reasons, although largely reasons of personal grandiosity and so on and then not only getting away with it at the time (great police work that night) but also later in court. Then becoming a hero for the conservative movement. I can't imagine the groups of armed men who are into this sort of thing haven't been paying attention.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on November 21, 2021, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 20, 2021, 11:33:03 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
I think the problem might simply be that it is legal to openly carry an AR-15 on the streets of Kenosha Wisconsin.

That's problem number 1; problem 2 is the apparent lack of a coherent provocation exception to justification by self-defense under Wisconsin law.  Put those two together and it's a formula for legal Wild West style shootouts with modern weapons.
Yeah from what I've read it sounds like the decision is probably legally correct and the facts were different than first reported.

But as you say that, in combination with those two problems creates a really dangerous situation.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on November 21, 2021, 10:24:42 AM
The fact that the victims weren't overly sympathetic didn't help either
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on November 21, 2021, 11:37:39 AM
Quote from: HVC on November 21, 2021, 10:24:42 AM
The fact that the victims weren't overly sympathetic didn't help either

I'd agree that Rosenbaum wasn't an innocent victim, given that he was the one that forced the deadly confrontation (and he also had a felony conviction and mental health issues).  The other two, though, were seemingly acting in self-defense in what looked like an active shooter situation. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on November 21, 2021, 11:47:43 AM
I always wondered how you solve the "friend or foe" problem when you implement "arm good guys with guns" philosophy.  How do good guys with guns know who the other guys with firing guns are?  I guess you can ask them, loudly enough so that you can be heard over the sound of gunfire, but what incentives do the bad guys have to identify themselves honestly?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on November 21, 2021, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 21, 2021, 11:37:39 AM
Quote from: HVC on November 21, 2021, 10:24:42 AM
The fact that the victims weren't overly sympathetic didn't help either

I'd agree that Rosenbaum wasn't an innocent victim, given that he was the one that forced the deadly confrontation (and he also had a felony conviction and mental health issues).  The other two, though, were seemingly acting in self-defense in what looked like an active shooter situation. 

Meant more that rosenbaum was a convicted pedophile and huber was convicted of domestic abuse and went to jail for attacking his brother (think attempted  murder but I might be misremembering). Grosskruetz had an illegal weapon on him.  So the victims weren't really brought up much in the media. To a point that like BB many thought they were black.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on November 21, 2021, 09:02:19 PM
Holy Shit, some asshole drove a car through a parade.  My niece was there.  Everyone is okay.  Still, it's creepy.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on November 22, 2021, 01:39:31 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2021, 09:02:19 PM
Holy Shit, some asshole drove a car through a parade.  My niece was there.  Everyone is okay.  Still, it's creepy.
Was that in Wisconsin?  Not everyone is okay there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on November 22, 2021, 03:39:54 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2021, 11:47:43 AM
I always wondered how you solve the "friend or foe" problem when you implement "arm good guys with guns" philosophy.  How do good guys with guns know who the other guys with firing guns are?  I guess you can ask them, loudly enough so that you can be heard over the sound of gunfire, but what incentives do the bad guys have to identify themselves honestly?

The original is "arm good ole boys with guns".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on November 23, 2021, 01:51:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 22, 2021, 01:39:31 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2021, 09:02:19 PM
Holy Shit, some asshole drove a car through a parade.  My niece was there.  Everyone is okay.  Still, it's creepy.
Was that in Wisconsin?  Not everyone is okay there.
I believe he meant his family.

Glad they're ok.

I wonder about the motivations of the driver.  Didn't seem to be his first time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on November 24, 2021, 12:28:52 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FE7bNhEVIAI-ujS?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 24, 2021, 03:41:31 AM
Accountability in Kansas City

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kcur.org/news/2021-11-19/kansas-city-police-officer-eric-devalkenaere-found-guilty-in-fatal-shooting-of-a-black-man%3f_amp=true

QuoteKansas City police officer Eric DeValkenaere found guilty in fatal shooting of a Black man
KCUR | By Dan Margolies
Published November 19, 2021 at 1:22 PM CST

DeValkenaere is the first Kansas City law enforcement officer to be convicted for the fatal shooting of a Black man. Following the conviction, the department suspended DeValkenaere without pay.
A Jackson County judge found Kansas City police detective Eric DeValkenaere guilty of involuntary manslaughter and armed criminal action in the fatal shooting of 26-year-old Cameron Lamb, a Black man.

"What we sought in this case was a just outcome and that's where we stand today," Jackson County Prosecutor Jean Peters Baker told reporters shortly after the verdict was rendered by Presiding Judge J. Dale Youngs.

Donna Drake, a spokeswoman for the Kansas City Police Department, said in an email that the department acknowledged the court's decision.

"Every officer involved shooting is difficult not only for the members in the community, but also the members of the police department," she said.

The department said that DeValkenaere had been suspended pending termination as a result of his conviction.

DeValkenaere is believed to be the first Kansas City law enforcement officer since 1941 to have stood trial for the fatal shooting of a Black man. The police officer in the earlier case was acquitted.

Jackson County prosecutors argued that DeValkenaere recklessly shot Cameron Lamb on Dec. 3, 2019, as Lamb was sitting in a pickup truck and backing into his garage at 41st Street and College Avenue.

The shooting occurred not long after a police helicopter spotted a red truck chasing a purple Mustang at speeds of up to 90 miles per hour through a residential neighborhood.

Prosecutors argued that DeValkenaere acted recklessly by entering Lamb's property without a warrant, knocking over a makeshift fence and firing his weapon within seconds of coming upon the pickup truck.

Defense lawyers contended that DeValkenaere, a 20-year veteran of the Kansas City Police Department and a member of its Violent Offender Squad when the shooting occurred, was responding to an ongoing danger and had probable cause to enter Lamb's property.

DeValkenaere waived his right to a jury trial and the case was tried before Youngs. The four-day trial ended last week and Youngs took the case under advisement.

In finding DeValkenaere guilty on both counts with which he was charged, Youngs ruled that Lamb had an expectation of privacy on his property and that DeValkenaere and his partner, Sgt. Troy Schwalm, had no justification to enter onto the property, as both did that day. Schwalm was not charged in the case.

Delivering his verdict from the bench in a courtroom packed with supporters and family of both DeValkenaere and Lamb, Youngs said that the two plainclothes policemen had no arrest warrant, no search warrant and no probable cause to obtain either.

Neither were there exigent circumstances nor a hot pursuit that might have justified their entrance onto the property, Youngs said, noting that the car chase had ended some time earlier.

"Based on the court's review of the law and the facts, the court concludes that the backyard and particularly the carport were within the curtilage," Youngs said, referring to the area immediately surrounding a dwelling. "And the occupants demonstrated a reasonable expectation of privacy."

Youngs took about 13 minutes to read his findings of fact and conclusions of law. As he pronounced DeValkenaere guilty, DeValkenaere slumped slightly in his seat and lowered his head.

Shouts of jubilation could be heard in the courthouse hallway as the courtroom emptied, and members of Lamb's family and supporters tearfully embraced.

DeValkenaere faces a minimum statutory punishment of three years on the involuntary manslaughter conviction and a minimum statutory punishment of three years on the armed criminal action conviction.

He remains free on bond pending sentencing, which Youngs said he would set at a later date.

Altogether, the trial and convictions marked a stunning development in the strained relations between the Jackson County Prosecutor's office and the Kansas City Police Department.

Baker, the prosecutor, has accused the department of not providing a probable cause statement in the case, forcing her to take the case to a grand jury.

In an extraordinary letter addressed to Kansas City Police Chief Rick Smith in April 2020, Baker said that police "hold a special place in our community" and, for that reason, they have strong protections under Missouri law.

"But officers are not entitled to a special process when they are the subject of a criminal investigation. Investigations must be neutral," she wrote. "Our system depends on this. Neutrality is especially important when you are investigating someone who works within your own ranks."

DeValkenaere's attorneys were not immediately available for comment, but they are expected to appeal the verdict.

After the verdict, S. Lee Merritt, a lawyer representing the Lamb family, called it "momentous" and "historic."

"These instances of justice in our system are far too rare, but there was something that happened here that was different," he said outside the courthouse.

Merritt represents the parents of three of Lamb's minor children, who have filed a wrongful death lawsuit against DeValkenaere and the Kansas City Board of Police Commissioners.

Kansas City Mayor Quinton Lucas said he did not view the guilty verdicts as an "indictment broadly" of the Kansas City Police Department.

"Instead what it is is the criminal justice system," Lucas said. "The prosecutor saw a concern, the grand jury indicted, a judge found a defendant guilty today. We go through this process regularly. This is with a different class of defendant but at the same time, I know the men and women of our law enforcement community will continue to go out and do the important work to keep this city safe."

The Southern Christian Leadership Conference of Greater Kansas City released a statement saying it was "celebrating the verdict."

Corrected: November 19, 2021 at 4:20 PM CST
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on November 24, 2021, 02:09:23 PM
at least Ahmaud Arbery's murders are going to jail.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on November 24, 2021, 02:23:22 PM
I didn't know that the killers chased the guy for five minutes before they closed in for the kill.  That's not murder, that's a lynching.  Emmet Till had a better chance at survival.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: fromtia on November 24, 2021, 02:30:10 PM
Well, relieved that Ahmed Auberys murderers are in fact murderers in the eyes of the law, despite the defenses best efforts to rely on some good old southern racism, that's a relief. I had read something recently about the Rittenhouse case, that essentially offered that no one with a legal background was surprised by the outcome and that liberal/progressive/leftish media had fundamentally mislead its audience in the reporting of the case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 24, 2021, 02:33:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 24, 2021, 02:23:22 PM
I didn't know that the killers chased the guy for five minutes before they closed in for the kill.  That's not murder, that's a lynching.  Emmet Till had a better chance at survival.

:yes:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 24, 2021, 02:34:23 PM
Quote from: fromtia on November 24, 2021, 02:30:10 PM
Well, relieved that Ahmed Auberys murderers are in fact murderers in the eyes of the law, despite the defenses best efforts to rely on some good old southern racism, that's a relief. I had read something recently about the Rittenhouse case, that essentially offered that no one with a legal background was surprised by the outcome and that liberal/progressive/leftish media had fundamentally mislead its audience in the reporting of the case.

I don't think it was shocking that Rittenhouse got off, more shocking that laws were set up that such a thing was legal.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on November 24, 2021, 06:25:06 PM
Quote from: HVC on November 24, 2021, 02:09:23 PM
at least Ahmaud Arbery's murders are going to jail.

Yeah, that's a huge relief in my case.  I was genuinely concerned that they'd get away with it and crush my last beliefs that the US justice system was any better than Italy's.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on November 24, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
I'm pleasantly surprised that an apparently racially profiled jury, choose instead to stick with a correct reading of the law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 01, 2021, 10:59:07 PM
Tucson cop shot a man in a wheelchair in the back 9 times because he was shoplifting and pulled a knife.  :rolleyes:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/01/us/arizona-wheelchair-officer-shooting/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 01, 2021, 11:20:57 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 01, 2021, 10:59:07 PM
Tucson cop shot a man in a wheelchair in the back 9 times because he was shoplifting and pulled a knife.  :rolleyes:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/01/us/arizona-wheelchair-officer-shooting/index.html
In Sweden they would've shot him in the leg.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 02, 2021, 01:38:54 AM
Clear missed opportunity for a tackle.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 02, 2021, 01:47:34 AM
Him being white proves that police are not biased against blacks. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on December 02, 2021, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 01, 2021, 11:20:57 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 01, 2021, 10:59:07 PM
Tucson cop shot a man in a wheelchair in the back 9 times because he was shoplifting and pulled a knife.  :rolleyes:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/01/us/arizona-wheelchair-officer-shooting/index.html
In Sweden they would've shot him in the leg.

^_^
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 01, 2021, 10:59:07 PM
Tucson cop shot a man in a wheelchair in the back 9 times because he was shoplifting and pulled a knife.  :rolleyes:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/01/us/arizona-wheelchair-officer-shooting/index.html

The 9th shot is the one that fucking just makes you ill. Well, they all do, of course, but he unloads on the guy eight times....pauses....then shoots him one more time in a way that just looks really fucking deliberate. I understand how in the moment, you are not counting shots or anything, but that last one just looked like an execution.

Now, to be fair, the story isn't QUITE as simple as it sounds in that the guy in the scooter thing (it wasn't a wheelchair, and it was motorized, hence he was able to move himself around) pulled a knife and then started driving his scooter back into the store while the cop yelled at him not to do that over and over again. So there is, to some rather tenuous definition, a threat to other people there.

And it is kind of a weird spot for the cop to be in - how do you stop someone in a motorized scooter thing who is holding a knife? You can't really approach them without risking getting stabbed, and you don't want to let them get back into the store where who the fuck knows what the guys is going to do.

Shooting him eight times....then once more for good measure probably isn't the way to go though. The body cam from the women responding officer is freaking nuts. You can tell she was like "WTF DID YOU JUST DO!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on December 02, 2021, 09:58:05 AM
I get the impression that some cops in the US are in fact trained to shoot to kill. If you are, then every scenario where you fire your gun and the person survives is a failure. You have to make sure they're dead.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on December 02, 2021, 11:33:18 AM
Not sure what kind of training you guys give your police officers down there, but if the only way to stop a dude on a handicap scooter with a knife is to shoot him 9 times... might want to review threat assessment and how to contain physical threats.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on December 02, 2021, 11:38:57 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 02, 2021, 11:33:18 AM
Not sure what kind of training you guys give your police officers down there, but if the only way to stop a dude on a handicap scooter with a knife is to shoot him 9 times... might want to review threat assessment and how to contain physical threats.

Did you miss the part where the department that he worked for specifically said this goes against their training and code of conduct?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on December 02, 2021, 01:05:03 PM
Great. There's no issue at all then.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on December 02, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
Weird you think so, but okay.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on December 02, 2021, 05:37:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
b) And it is kind of a weird spot for the cop to be in - how do you stop someone in a motorized scooter thing who is holding a knife?

a) You can't really approach them without risking getting stabbed, and you don't want to let them get back into the store where who the fuck knows what the guys is going to do.

a) yes you can approach them. It's a mobile wheel chair, not a racing bike.  It has limited speed and mobility.  The driver needs one hand to operate the machine, leaving only one free for the knife, it can't grab someone and stab them, it needs to run over them, unbalance them, stab/cut them.  the risk of injuries to other is limited.

b) all the cop had to do to neutralize the individual was to get behind the motorized vehicle and shoot the battery.  No power, no movement.  End of threat.  then it could wait for reinforcements to secure the prisoner and remove his knife from his hands, forcefully, but without fatality.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 05:53:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 02, 2021, 05:37:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
b) And it is kind of a weird spot for the cop to be in - how do you stop someone in a motorized scooter thing who is holding a knife?

a) You can't really approach them without risking getting stabbed, and you don't want to let them get back into the store where who the fuck knows what the guys is going to do.

a) yes you can approach them. It's a mobile wheel chair, not a racing bike.  It has limited speed and mobility.  The driver needs one hand to operate the machine, leaving only one free for the knife, it can't grab someone and stab them, it needs to run over them, unbalance them, stab/cut them.  the risk of injuries to other is limited.

Well the driver can, you know...stand up and stab someone. The cop has no reason to assume he was incapable of leaving the scooter.

Quote
b) all the cop had to do to neutralize the individual was to get behind the motorized vehicle and shoot the battery.  No power, no movement.  End of threat.  then it could wait for reinforcements to secure the prisoner and remove his knife from his hands, forcefully, but without fatality.

Not saying it could not be done, and should have been done in some fashion less stupid then blowing the guy away. And "shooting the battery" would be less stupid then shooting the occupant, but still likely rather stupid and almost certainly a violation of procedure and protocol. I imagine most batteries don't respond well to being shot.

Just pointing out that "cop shoots man in wheelchair who had a knife" isn't really an accurate description of the threat the guy posed.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 02, 2021, 06:28:18 PM
Shouldn't he have a taser?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 06:36:17 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 02, 2021, 06:28:18 PM
Shouldn't he have a taser?

One would think....although there has been a lot of SHOCK and OUTRAGE over taser use, so some departments have stopped using them.

I am genuinely curious what he should have done, according to whatever training and protocol was in place.

I don't see why he could not simply continue to follow and wait for an opportunity to incapacitate the scooter. If the guy jumped out of it, he and the the officer had a rather clear drop on him.

Although you d hear about people with knives being able to do a rather shocking amount of damage rather quickly at times. And like I said, there was no reason for the officer to assume he was not able to get out of the scooter seat.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 02, 2021, 08:06:36 PM
Trying to shoot out the battery on a moving scooter seems like a rather impractical solution.  I'm not sure it's a common knowledge where the batteries are located on scooters, and it's not something that you can easily figure out in a split second.  Cops also don't have anti-materiel rifles with them, so I'm not even sure it's all that easy to disable a battery with a pistol shot, especially if it's not located in an exposed area with a bullseye helpfully painted on it.  The only practical solution that comes to mind is knocking the scooter over on its side, if the cop were close enough to do it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on December 03, 2021, 01:20:37 AM
Didn't the Israelis develop a method to deal with guys in wheelchairs? Could probably work for scooters as well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 03, 2021, 02:00:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 03, 2021, 01:20:37 AM
Didn't the Israelis develop a method to deal with guys in wheelchairs? Could probably work for scooters as well.
:pinch:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on December 03, 2021, 03:46:14 AM
Putting myself in "armchair cop" mode, I wonder if kicking the scooter down could have worked.  :hmm: I mean, even if they're faster than a wheelchair it's not as if they're that fast or manouvrable.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on December 03, 2021, 04:28:40 AM
You could probably box them in with some barricades. I doubt those things have much power.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: PDH on December 03, 2021, 10:29:46 AM
Siegfried Line Dragon's Teeth, land mines, fuel-air explosive.  There were many alternatives to just gunning him down.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 03, 2021, 11:39:41 AM
Honestly, I have no idea what to do.  Ask people to evacuate the building?  Throw your wallet at the guy?  Wait 15 more seconds for that cop arriving to get out of the car?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on December 03, 2021, 11:49:59 AM
Shoot only once?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 03, 2021, 12:28:41 PM
It isnt fast - seems like you could just clear out the path in front of him of people, and look for something to toss in front of him.

Hell, I don't know. Blowing him away didn't really seem like the right answer in any case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 09, 2021, 12:28:58 AM
A lot of posters here have children, so hopefully this is going to be useful: https://twitter.com/OCSheriff/status/1453819437874823174.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on December 09, 2021, 10:05:38 AM
I see they left out the part where you shoot their dog.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on December 09, 2021, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 09, 2021, 12:28:58 AM
A lot of posters here have children, so hopefully this is going to be useful: https://twitter.com/OCSheriff/status/1453819437874823174 (https://twitter.com/OCSheriff/status/1453819437874823174).

I kept expecting the punch line.   :huh: Woah.  I mean, like, woah.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on December 09, 2021, 07:09:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 05:53:16 PM
Well the driver can, you know...stand up and stab someone. The cop has no reason to assume he was incapable of leaving the scooter.
I tend to assume people don't use wheelchair for fun, especially when they want to commit a violent crime.

QuoteI imagine most batteries don't respond well to being shot.
No they don't.  However, they are generally not exposed, they are in some kind of semi protected compartment, and the chair would absorb most of the acid.

Quote
Just pointing out that "cop shoots man in wheelchair who had a knife" isn't really an accurate description of the threat the guy posed.
Ok.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 09, 2021, 08:59:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 09, 2021, 07:09:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 02, 2021, 05:53:16 PM
Well the driver can, you know...stand up and stab someone. The cop has no reason to assume he was incapable of leaving the scooter.
I tend to assume people don't use wheelchair for fun, especially when they want to commit a violent crime.

You get the privilege of your assumptions. Police officers do not.

Quote

QuoteI imagine most batteries don't respond well to being shot.
No they don't.  However, they are generally not exposed, they are in some kind of semi protected compartment, and the chair would absorb most of the acid.



You have expertise in what kinds of batteries are used in scooters and how they react to being shot? That's handy. I doubt your average cop does though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on December 10, 2021, 11:05:35 PM
Quote
You have expertise in what kinds of batteries are used in scooters and how they react to being shot?
I've seen a few, and I kinda know from, theory, how a battery acts when it's pierced.


Quote from: Berkut on December 09, 2021, 08:59:22 PM
You get the privilege of your assumptions. Police officers do not.

That's handy. I doubt your average cop does though.

I think before shooting someone, higher standards should apply, and doubt is not such a bad thing in all cases.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 11, 2021, 10:02:43 AM
Shooting a battery full of acid is not the smart move - there are people around to get splashed.  However, that scooter cannot move fast enough to even chase down anyone to knife, so I agree that the criteria to use deadly force was not met.

It looks to me like suicide by cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 11, 2021, 04:32:23 PM
Really, we're talking about shooting batteries.... :rolleyes: Who's the retard that said that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 13, 2021, 11:45:40 AM
It really is funny the things people say when it comes to pntificating about what cops should do.

I mean, it doesn't take an expert to know what they should NOT do, like shoot a guy 7 times, pause....then once more just to be sure.

But very, very few people actually understand what they should do, or even appear to want to think about it that hard.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on December 13, 2021, 11:52:26 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2021, 11:45:40 AM
It really is funny the things people say when it comes to pntificating about what cops should do.

I mean, it doesn't take an expert to know what they should NOT do, like shoot a guy 7 times, pause....then once more just to be sure.

But very, very few people actually understand what they should do, or even appear to want to think about it that hard.

I just want to be smug and point out that I have in the past thought very, very hard about what police should do, as I have from time to time been tasked with opining on whether police officers should face criminal charges for their actions or not.

But one of the things those experiences have taught me is that you need far, far more than a news report or two to be able to properly reach a conclusion.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 13, 2021, 11:57:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2021, 11:52:26 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2021, 11:45:40 AM
It really is funny the things people say when it comes to pntificating about what cops should do.

I mean, it doesn't take an expert to know what they should NOT do, like shoot a guy 7 times, pause....then once more just to be sure.

But very, very few people actually understand what they should do, or even appear to want to think about it that hard.

I just want to be smug and point out that I have in the past thought very, very hard about what police should do, as I have from time to time been tasked with opining on whether police officers should face criminal charges for their actions or not.

But one of the things those experiences have taught me is that you need far, far more than a news report or two to be able to properly reach a conclusion.

I think there is a pretty expected backlash against police use of force. For the longest time there was cursory, if that, oversight, and a lot of examples of just egregious violence being done.

But the response to that is in many cases just this idea that the job really isn't that hard, and a lot of people who think they successfully have identified 20 out of 5 cases of abuse of force.

This is what happens when you don't have rational oversight with consequences for over-reach. The backlash becomes rather farcical at times, and often actively counter-productive. Where appearances count for more then actual results.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on December 13, 2021, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 13, 2021, 11:57:11 AM
I think there is a pretty expected backlash against police use of force. For the longest time there was cursory, if that, oversight, and a lot of examples of just egregious violence being done.

But the response to that is in many cases just this idea that the job really isn't that hard, and a lot of people who think they successfully have identified 20 out of 5 cases of abuse of force.

This is what happens when you don't have rational oversight with consequences for over-reach. The backlash becomes rather farcical at times, and often actively counter-productive. Where appearances count for more then actual results.

So I often think about the cases I did opinions on.  They were less sensational that the typical news reports, but given that they reached the level of having to ask for a legal opinion they were necessarily problematic.  I also can't discuss them due to solicitor-client privilege.

But I also think about a recent case out of Edmonton.  https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/edmonton-police-officer-guilty-of-assaulting-man-during-2019-arrest  Now I should specify that I had absolutely nothing to do with this officer's prosecution (Edmonton Crown do not prosecute Edmonton police).  But I had multiple occasions to deal with the officer in question on an unrelated file and found him to be a fair, reasonable and conscientious officer.

I also think back to the case of Philando Castille.  He's the black guy who was pulled over, calmly told officers he was carrying (he had a license), and was blown away by an officer who panicked in the moment.  That officer was then acquitted after trial.  The officer was then fired, and the City settled with the family for several million.  While obviously this was a tragedy for Mr. Castille and his family (I seem to recall he had a young child). I'm not sure that given the differing standards of proof for criminal vs civil liability that was perhaps the correct result.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 13, 2021, 01:06:00 PM
What are the thoughts on Kim Potter case?  From everything that I've seen, it seems clear that she had a very tragic brain fart that led to death, but is that really something we send people to prison for?  No matter how much training you have, there are going to be times when you honestly fuck up, and in hindsight fuck up inexplicably.  Airline industry knows this, which is why honest mistakes are generally not punished, but rather used to inform the authorities what systems should be in place to make the process robust to human brain misfires.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on December 13, 2021, 01:18:41 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 13, 2021, 01:06:00 PM
What are the thoughts on Kim Potter case?  From everything that I've seen, it seems clear that she had a very tragic brain fart that led to death, but is that really something we send people to prison for?  No matter how much training you have, there are going to be times when you honestly fuck up, and in hindsight fuck up inexplicably.  Airline industry knows this, which is why honest mistakes are generally not punished, but rather used to inform the authorities what systems should be in place to make the process robust to human brain misfires.

With the big proviso that I have already said you need to be able to study a case in detail to come to a well-informed opinion, and I have not done so... in terms of criminal liability it seems much more clear cut.  Kim Potter was entitled to use the Taser, and tragically used her firearm instead.  It is clearly negligence on a civil standard, but not criminally culpable.

The Philando Castille case I mentioned was more problematic as the officer didn't appear to have objective grounds to use force at all.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on December 13, 2021, 11:08:28 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 13, 2021, 01:06:00 PM
What are the thoughts on Kim Potter case?  From everything that I've seen, it seems clear that she had a very tragic brain fart that led to death, but is that really something we send people to prison for?  No matter how much training you have, there are going to be times when you honestly fuck up, and in hindsight fuck up inexplicably.  Airline industry knows this, which is why honest mistakes are generally not punished, but rather used to inform the authorities what systems should be in place to make the process robust to human brain misfires.

The big difference is that the airline industry (or more accurately, the FAA) pushes for changes in order to ensure such things don't happen again. So far in policing that doesn't appear to be the case. So instead the most egregious fuck-ups are prosecuted (sometimes) and the rest walk, and nothing changes.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Malthus on December 14, 2021, 10:00:05 AM
It was a different time ...

https://youtu.be/due92VSljwA
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 23, 2021, 02:37:59 PM
Wow, Kim Potter found guilty on both charges.  Seems a little twisted how so many psychos with itchy trigger fingers don't even make it out of the grand jury, while someone who openly and credibly admitted to an awful mistake is found guilty.  Obviously the jury is aware of much more than what is known to the public, but given my level of knowledge, this outcome just seems to reward blue code of silence mafia approach to police accountability.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 23, 2021, 02:42:15 PM
Yeah, the Potter verdict, like the Potter indictment, surpass my understanding of the law.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 23, 2021, 11:40:04 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 23, 2021, 02:42:15 PM
Yeah, the Potter verdict, like the Potter indictment, surpass my understanding of the law.


Well, yeah...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 10:40:48 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 23, 2021, 02:37:59 PM
Wow, Kim Potter found guilty on both charges.  Seems a little twisted how so many psychos with itchy trigger fingers don't even make it out of the grand jury, while someone who openly and credibly admitted to an awful mistake is found guilty.  Obviously the jury is aware of much more than what is known to the public, but given my level of knowledge, this outcome just seems to reward blue code of silence mafia approach to police accountability.

She was found guilty of manslaughter, right? After she killed someone because she shot them while thinking she was tasering them?

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of manslaughter?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 02:51:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 10:40:48 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 23, 2021, 02:37:59 PM
Wow, Kim Potter found guilty on both charges.  Seems a little twisted how so many psychos with itchy trigger fingers don't even make it out of the grand jury, while someone who openly and credibly admitted to an awful mistake is found guilty.  Obviously the jury is aware of much more than what is known to the public, but given my level of knowledge, this outcome just seems to reward blue code of silence mafia approach to police accountability.

She was found guilty of manslaughter, right? After she killed someone because she shot them while thinking she was tasering them?

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of manslaughter?
Obviously I am not a lawyer, but I think there is more to a manslaughter conviction than just killing someone by accident.  I think it requires some recklessness, where your bad choices coupled with bad luck lead to someone's death.  I guess the separating line is whether you think a brainfart is reckless or just something that happens. 

I'm inclined to believe that in high pressure situations, especially ones not encountered often and which come up suddenly, the brain can really fuck up in inexplicable ways.  The airline industry is full of examples of how pilots who had no interest in killing themselves nevertheless acted in ways almost seemed desgined to crash the plane after encountering trouble, which is why there is a lot of training done for that now to try to work around that human tendency.  I don't see what social purpose is served by punishing people that in the situation they were in were just victims of their own brains reacting badly to highly stressful situations.

In my mind, a manslaughter conviction would be warranted if Kim Potter blew off the weapon confusion training course and faked its completion, as that is a reckless act that could take someone's life much further down the road.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 10:40:48 AM
She was found guilty of manslaughter, right? After she killed someone because she shot them while thinking she was tasering them?

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of manslaughter?

She was convicted of both first- and second-degree manslaughter.  First-degree because she was convicted of committing the crime of recklessly mishandling her firearm in such a way as to knowingly endanger others while also killing someone, and second-degree because she "consciously took a chance of causing death or great bodily harm."  The jury believed that she consciously chose to risk killing Wright when she pulled out her "taser."

As I said earlier, the dissonance between the facts known to me and the law as I understand it, and the indictments and verdict, is extreme.  There must be facts which have not been made public, or the law doesn't work the way I thought the law worked.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 03:30:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 10:40:48 AM
She was found guilty of manslaughter, right? After she killed someone because she shot them while thinking she was tasering them?

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of manslaughter?
Yeah - that's how I'd read it too.

I know nothing about criminal law - and I know nothing about this case or American law. But if there's recklessness I wonder if there' an element of objectiveness - so is it a mistake a reasonable police officer (with all the training that should include and in that situation) would make? So would a reasonable police officer pull out the wrong weapon?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:30:25 PM
She shot someone.

She used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

She run a red light and hit someone with her car (which, I bet, could also result in a manslaughter charge). She pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?

Yes, yes I do think that is reckless. I do not think it is a brainfart - I don't think she did something that surprise, surprise! who could have thought that would go so badly!
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 10:40:48 AM
She was found guilty of manslaughter, right? After she killed someone because she shot them while thinking she was tasering them?

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of manslaughter?

She was convicted of both first- and second-degree manslaughter.  First-degree because she was convicted of committing the crime of recklessly mishandling her firearm in such a way as to knowingly endanger others while also killing someone, and second-degree because she "consciously took a chance of causing death or great bodily harm."  The jury believed that she consciously chose to risk killing Wright when she pulled out her "taser."

As I said earlier, the dissonance between the facts known to me and the law as I understand it, and the indictments and verdict, is extreme.  There must be facts which have not been made public, or the law doesn't work the way I thought the law worked.

OK, the first degree charge is a bit harder to understand. Under Minnesota law, I don't really see which of the statutes her actions would apply to...
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 03:39:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:30:25 PM
She shot someone.

She used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

She run a red light and hit someone with her car (which, I bet, could also result in a manslaughter charge). She pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?

Yes, yes I do think that is reckless. I do not think it is a brainfart - I don't think she did something that surprise, surprise! who could have thought that would go so badly!

It is an interesting parallel to the shooting on the "Rust" set.  Alec Baldwin shot someone.

He used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

He pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 24, 2021, 03:45:58 PM
You forget, Baldwin is also a celebrity.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:30:25 PM
She shot someone.

She used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

She run a red light and hit someone with her car (which, I bet, could also result in a manslaughter charge). She pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?

Yes, yes I do think that is reckless. I do not think it is a brainfart - I don't think she did something that surprise, surprise! who could have thought that would go so badly!
Obviously she did not realize it was a gun she was pointing, so the consequence of her pulling a trigger was indeed a surprise to her (as evidenced by the cameras).  If you legitimately think you're pointing one thing and are in fact pointing another, that's a brainfart.  Not all brainfarts are excusable, obviously; surgeon cutting off the wrong leg is also a brainfart, but one that is not forced by extreme time pressure of the event.  In this case, a very dangerous situation developed in a matter of seconds.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 03:39:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:30:25 PM
She shot someone.

She used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

She run a red light and hit someone with her car (which, I bet, could also result in a manslaughter charge). She pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?

Yes, yes I do think that is reckless. I do not think it is a brainfart - I don't think she did something that surprise, surprise! who could have thought that would go so badly!

It is an interesting parallel to the shooting on the "Rust" set.  Alec Baldwin shot someone.

He used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

He pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?


That is a good comparison.

The difference is one of context of course. She was not on a movie set, she was acting as a police officer, which implies I think a certain amount of caution, training, and basic respect for her tools.

But that is an excellent counter point. It is a similar set of circumstances, but the differences are legally compelling.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 24, 2021, 03:45:58 PM
You forget, Baldwin is also a celebrity.

I don't think that has anything to do with it, actually.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:17:23 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:30:25 PM
She shot someone.

She used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

She run a red light and hit someone with her car (which, I bet, could also result in a manslaughter charge). She pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?

Yes, yes I do think that is reckless. I do not think it is a brainfart - I don't think she did something that surprise, surprise! who could have thought that would go so badly!
Obviously she did not realize it was a gun she was pointing, so the consequence of her pulling a trigger was indeed a surprise to her (as evidenced by the cameras).  If you legitimately think you're pointing one thing and are in fact pointing another, that's a brainfart.  Not all brainfarts are excusable, obviously; surgeon cutting off the wrong leg is also a brainfart, but one that is not forced by extreme time pressure of the event.  In this case, a very dangerous situation developed in a matter of seconds.

But surely there is some responsibility for a trained police officer around knowing what it is they are in fact pointing at someone else.

I don't think she intended to kill anyone, that seems pretty clear to me.

But I also think it seems kind of clear there was some kind of pretty gross negligence at least akin to the surgeon cutting off the wrong leg.

And I can't see how a police officer pulling out their gun, aiming it at someone, and then pulling the trigger directly resulting in their death in a circumstance under which that person was not at all a deadly threat can be just kind of written off as an "Oops! Sorry!".

On the other hand, I also think a good chunk of civilian shootings that civilians seem to get away with on what looks like to me pretty bullshit reasons should result in jail time as well.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 04:27:07 PM
I don't think the situation can be classified as "not at all a deadly threat".  Someone driving away in a vehicle with police officers partially inside can indeed be a deadly threat.  She didn't choose to use a deadly force against it, but I think it's still relevant, because it shows that it was a situation that required an immediate instinctive response.  She didn't have time to pull out a checklist, go through all the items, and ensure that the right weapon was in her hand.

Should her training have been enough to avoid making that mistake?  Of course, but it turns out it wasn't enough, or the training is not perfect enough to get the human performance down to absolute zero error level.  A mistake did happen, and as far as I'm aware of the facts, Kim Potter did not intentionally disregard her training, it just didn't kick in properly on a level that was entirely automatic. 

I'll ask again, what purpose is served by putting that person in prison?  Thousands of people die every year on the roads because another person fucked up; the guilty parties generally don't go to prison unless it can be demonstrated that they acted in ways that showed contempt for the risks they inflicted on other parties.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 04:31:17 PM
I just don't think it's a wildly high bar - if police have both - that officers know where their gun is and where their taser is and the difference between them. It's not asking to do a full risk assessment before pulling her weapon but knowing which is the one that's lethal.

It's why I wonder if there is an objective standard at play so it's not about what she thought at that time but about whether her conduct was at the level of a reasonable officer in the same situation.

Edit: It's also why I think the Baldwin situation is different - what would a reasonable person do in that situation. I don't know all the details but from my understanding it seems like they would expect that to not be a loaded weapon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:32:07 PM
THe purpose, if we want to go that route, is

1. To emphasize the care and thoughtfulness that needs to go into any decision to use force, and
2. Close the door to the next cop blowing some guy away and then trotting out the "Ooops! I thought I was just shining my flashlight at him!" defense.

I have family who are police officers. Believe me, I get that there has to be some kind of acknowledgement that they are engage in a job where simple accidents happen, and those accidents could have deadly results.

I am just really damn hesitant to say that killing someone with your gun is ever something that can be excused by not knowing it was your gun. That just seems really....well, grossly negligent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:34:32 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 04:31:17 PM
I just don't think it's a wildly high bar - if police have both - that officers know where their gun is and where their taser is and the difference between them. It's not asking to do a full risk assessment before pulling her weapon but knowing which is the one that's lethal.

It's why I wonder if there is an objective standard at play so it's not about what she thought at that time but about whether her conduct was at the level of a reasonable officer in the same situation.

Given that there is not really a routine problem of cops killing people on accident when they think they are using some other tool then their pistol, there is a reasonable argument to be made that apparently this isn't actually a significant problem.

I mean, absent this shooting, if you said "Hey Shelf, we have a system where in only 1 in a million cases of a officer attempting to tase someone, they will accidently shoot them instead" you would probably say "Oh, well, that sounds pretty reasonable then!".

Of course, if this is the 1 in a millionth case, it looks pretty fucking horrific.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 04:38:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:34:32 PM
Given that there is not really a routine problem of cops killing people on accident when they think they are using some other tool then their pistol, there is a reasonable argument to be made that apparently this isn't actually a significant problem.

I mean, absent this shooting, if you said "Hey Shelf, we have a system where in only 1 in a million cases of a officer attempting to tase someone, they will accidently shoot them instead" you would probably say "Oh, well, that sounds pretty reasonable then!".

Of course, if this is the 1 in a millionth case, it looks pretty fucking horrific.
Yeah which is why I'm inclined to think it makes sense that this results in a conviction. It wasn't deliberate but, given that this doesn't seem to be a problem for police in general, I'm surely the conclusion is it's reckless or, as you say, very negligent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 24, 2021, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 24, 2021, 03:45:58 PM
You forget, Baldwin is also a celebrity.

I don't think that has anything to do with it, actually.

Perhaps not, but it would come into play if there was a case worth prosecuting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 04:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 04:31:17 PM
I just don't think it's a wildly high bar - if police have both - that officers know where their gun is and where their taser is and the difference between them. It's not asking to do a full risk assessment before pulling her weapon but knowing which is the one that's lethal.
:rolleyes:  I think flippantly dismissing the effect of being in a highly stressful situation just makes the person appear uninterested in really understanding the situation.  Thankfully I've probably not been in situations that cops are in regularly, but I've been in enough situations that have been stressful enough for my level of preparation to know better than to mock people who find themselves in such predicaments.  Are you really under impression that Kim Potter was generally unaware that the black gun delivered a bigger ouch than the yellow gun?

When people press the wrong pedal in a car, they don't do it because they don't know that the one on the right makes you go faster and the one on the left makes you go slower.  They do it because a stressful situation knocks them out of a mental rhythm, and sometimes various mental biases such as confirmation bias can make you fuck up before you have a chance to regain your bearings.  Training helps by developing better instincts that you will inevitably fall back on when the shit hits the fan, but obviously it didn't in this case.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 04:38:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:34:32 PM
Given that there is not really a routine problem of cops killing people on accident when they think they are using some other tool then their pistol, there is a reasonable argument to be made that apparently this isn't actually a significant problem.

I mean, absent this shooting, if you said "Hey Shelf, we have a system where in only 1 in a million cases of a officer attempting to tase someone, they will accidently shoot them instead" you would probably say "Oh, well, that sounds pretty reasonable then!".

Of course, if this is the 1 in a millionth case, it looks pretty fucking horrific.
Yeah which is why I'm inclined to think it makes sense that this results in a conviction. It wasn't deliberate but, given that this doesn't seem to be a problem for police in general, I'm surely the conclusion is it's reckless or, as you say, very negligent.
Just because something doesn't happen often doesn't mean that something was done differently when it did happen.  It just means that all the Swiss cheese holes lined up that time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 04:56:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 04:48:14 PM:rolleyes:  I think flippantly dismissing the effect of being in a highly stressful situation just makes the person appear uninterested in really understanding the situation.  Thankfully I've probably not been in situations that cops are in regularly, but I've been in enough situations that have been stressful enough for my level of preparation to know better than to mock people who find themselves in such predicaments.  Are you really under impression that Kim Potter was generally unaware that the black gun delivered a bigger ouch than the yellow gun?

When people press the wrong pedal in a car, they don't do it because they don't know that the one on the right makes you go faster and the one on the left makes you go slower.  They do it because a stressful situation knocks them out of a mental rhythm, and sometimes various mental biases such as confirmation bias can make you fuck up before you have a chance to regain your bearings.  Training helps by developing better instincts that you will inevitably fall back on when the shit hits the fan, but obviously it didn't in this case.
Because it didn't is why it seems to reckless or negligent. The standard we expect for a police officer is higher than for you and me because they are trained but also because we give them weapons that can kill. In the same way as that the standard for a surgeon is different - again training, but also they're allowed to operate on people.

I'm not sure that it matters whether she was actually aware of it or not - because obviously if she was she wouldn't do it - but whether it meets the standard you'd expect of an average police officer. In part the lack of other cases like this is exactly why I think manslaughter is probably right.

I don't think being in a stressful situation can be a defence for a police officer because that's the nature of the job. But it doesn't seem wrong to me that we as a society give police weapons and expect them to handle them better in a stressful situation. I think maybe it could be a mitigating factor.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on December 24, 2021, 05:02:28 PM
Does Marsellus Wallace look like a taser? How is it possible to think your gun is a taser?

Also, surely Baldwin is facing charges if in fact he pointed a gun at someone and pulled the trigger without checking if he was firing live rounds or blanks?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe the sticking point is what is meant by "negligence".  To me negligence requires a conscious thought at some point.  You had to have made a rational decision at some point that was wrong, and that no reasonable person in your situation would make without knowing it was wrong.  That rational decision doesn't have to be at the particular moment of a crime, it could be many years earlier, but it seems to me that it has to figure somewhere.  I may be wrong about it, but to me it seems like it is impossible to be negligent just due to your instinctive training kicking in improperly, it seems to me that you had to have had a hand in your training not being up to scratch in order to be negligent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2021, 05:04:09 PM
I have no doubt that prosecutors would be just as merciless with me if I was charged.  If this is unjust then the law should be altered or abolished.  Unjust laws should be done away with rather than finding exceptions for sympathetic defendants.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2021, 05:11:03 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe the sticking point is what is meant by "negligence".  To me negligence requires a conscious thought at some point.  You had to have made a rational decision at some point that was wrong, and that no reasonable person in your situation would make without knowing it was wrong.  That rational decision doesn't have to be at the particular moment of a crime, it could be many years earlier, but it seems to me that it has to figure somewhere.  I may be wrong about it, but to me it seems like it is impossible to be negligent just due to your instinctive training kicking in improperly, it seems to me that you had to have had a hand in your training not being up to scratch in order to be negligent.
Yeah - it may be different in the US and I have no idea on that. But here I think negligence at least is not about what you've done or any decision youo've made - it's not subjective like that. It's simply whether the mistake you made is something that a reasonable person (in your position - so the standard is higher for a professional doing their job, say) would make. With negligence - and again I don't know the US or criminal law angle on this - but you're judged against someone exercising your role with reasonable care and skill.

And I think that is right. To use the surgeon as an example, if there's someone who accidentally harms their patients on a regular basis, I don't think the fact that they did all their training diligently and are just - for want of a better word - reckless or negligent should be a get out. The issue isn't with them failing to do their training properly, but in what they do in their role.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 05:44:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 03:39:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 24, 2021, 03:30:25 PM
She shot someone.

She used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

She run a red light and hit someone with her car (which, I bet, could also result in a manslaughter charge). She pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?

Yes, yes I do think that is reckless. I do not think it is a brainfart - I don't think she did something that surprise, surprise! who could have thought that would go so badly!

It is an interesting parallel to the shooting on the "Rust" set.  Alec Baldwin shot someone.

He used a tool whose entire purpose is the killing of another human being, and killed another human being.

He pulled out a gun, aimed it at someone, and shot them.

If that is second degree manslaughter, I am not sure what is...

This was not "killing someone by accident". How is pulling out a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger simply an accident?


That is a good comparison.

The difference is one of context of course. She was not on a movie set, she was acting as a police officer, which implies I think a certain amount of caution, training, and basic respect for her tools.

But that is an excellent counter point. It is a similar set of circumstances, but the differences are legally compelling.

There's nothing in the law that says that police officers have a lower threshold for manslaughter.  Baldwin was acting as an actor on a set with real guns, which implies I think a certain amount of caution, training, and basic respect for his tools. Also, Baldwin was not in a potentially life-or-death situation where one of his fellow actors was being dragged along by an accelerating car.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 06:01:25 PM
I don't think that the issue here is whether or not Potter committed manslaughter.  She pretty clearly did.  The question is whether or not she committed first-degree manslaughter, which is the reckless killing of someone while engaged in another crime that isn't a felony (if the other crime is a felony, then the crime is felony murder).  In previous cases in the US (this has occurred about every two years since 2001), the charge has always been second-degree manslaughter - that is, the killing of someone through negligence - when it has been charged at all. 

This is the first case in which an officer in this position has been charged with first-degree manslaughter, though there seems no difference in this case that would make it different (other than the political atmosphere).   The difference in sentencing guidelines is two years for second-degree manslaughter with no previous convictions, versus eight for first-degree with no previous convictions.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 07:01:28 PM
I personally don't even think that a second degree manslaughter is warranted.  I've been reading up in the last hour, and what I came across seems to confirm my existing understanding that killing someone by mistake on its own does not make a case for manslaughter of any degree.  There had to be some bad judgment leading to a mistake before it's manslaughter, and it's first degree manslaughter if it's not merely bad judgment, but an actual crime separate from the killing.  Judgment has to be a conscious decision, not a split-second instinctive decision in a situation where making no decision is not an option. 

I really strongly suspect that this case was a case of a referee awarding a make-up call because so many awful calls went in the other direction earlier.  If the charge of first degree manslaughter is indeed unsupportable, is it something that is reversible on appeal, or does this fall under the category of the jury's decision being final?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
If only we had someone who's profession was reading and understanding laws.  They might be able to clear this up.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 25, 2021, 04:49:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 24, 2021, 06:01:25 PM
I don't think that the issue here is whether or not Potter committed manslaughter.  She pretty clearly did.  The question is whether or not she committed first-degree manslaughter, which is the reckless killing of someone while engaged in another crime that isn't a felony (if the other crime is a felony, then the crime is felony murder).  In previous cases in the US (this has occurred about every two years since 2001), the charge has always been second-degree manslaughter - that is, the killing of someone through negligence - when it has been charged at all. 

This is the first case in which an officer in this position has been charged with first-degree manslaughter, though there seems no difference in this case that would make it different (other than the political atmosphere).   The difference in sentencing guidelines is two years for second-degree manslaughter with no previous convictions, versus eight for first-degree with no previous convictions.

My original response was without the knowledge that she had been convicted of first degree manslaughter.

Second degree seems pretty cut and dried - having read the Minnesota statute on first degree, I do not at all see how it fits into the fact pattern.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 25, 2021, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 24, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
If only we had someone who's profession was reading and understanding laws.  They might be able to clear this up.

I want to see the Youtube lawyers take on this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 25, 2021, 04:57:30 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 24, 2021, 07:01:28 PM
I personally don't even think that a second degree manslaughter is warranted.  I've been reading up in the last hour, and what I came across seems to confirm my existing understanding that killing someone by mistake on its own does not make a case for manslaughter of any degree.  There had to be some bad judgment leading to a mistake before it's manslaughter, and it's first degree manslaughter if it's not merely bad judgment, but an actual crime separate from the killing.  Judgment has to be a conscious decision, not a split-second instinctive decision in a situation where making no decision is not an option. 

I really strongly suspect that this case was a case of a referee awarding a make-up call because so many awful calls went in the other direction earlier.  If the charge of first degree manslaughter is indeed unsupportable, is it something that is reversible on appeal, or does this fall under the category of the jury's decision being final?

This would appear to be the relevant charge (2-5 clearly do not apply)"

Quote609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another

I think her actions check the boxes. There was culpable negligence:

Quote(law) recklessly acting without reasonable caution and putting another person at risk of injury or death (or failing to do something with the same consequences)

She consciously drew and fired her weapon. It may have been a split second decision, but it was certainly a conscious decision. It was certainly a mistake in that she doesn't seem to have know what weapon she was drawing, but the decision to draw *a* weapon and not ensure that it was the weapon she thought she was drawing seems pretty negligent to me.

At the end of the day, putting aside the strictly legal definition, it seems to me that there is a clear difference between an actual accident, where something actually beyond your control happens and someone dies, and a case where you take clear action that directly leads to someone's death, and that action was in fact clearly likely to do so.

I just cannot square the idea that a police officer can pull out their weapon, point it as someone, and pull the trigger, and not be responsible at all for what happens after that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 25, 2021, 05:29:03 PM
There is probably no universal definition for what is and isn't conscious.  You can always go reductionist and say that nothing is a conscious act, you're after all just a slave to brain synapses firing in a certain way. 

To me, you can't do something consciously when you had no idea you were doing it, that sounds contradictory to me.  You can't consciously take a chance of causing death if you haven't consciously drawn the only weapon that causes death.  I get that different people may have different reasonable takes on it, but I personally just can't get there.  Maybe I'm just too deferential to the concept of confirmation bias, and put too much weight on how devastating it can be to an innocent person with innocent intentions.

Whether some actions for police officers should be on a strict liability basis as a matter of policy, so the state of mind is beside the point, is probably a separate discussion.  I personally don't think that any crimes should be strict liability, even the ones that currently are.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 25, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Her actions don't sound reckless to me.

But I'm wondering if holstering the taser and side arm on the same side is a good idea.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: 11B4V on December 25, 2021, 08:07:22 PM
She mistakenly shot someone with lethal force, while her intention was to use a less than lethal option. A costly mistake, killing someone and endangering her fellow officers on scene. She deserves what she gets.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: mongers on December 25, 2021, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 25, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Her actions don't sound reckless to me.

But I'm wondering if holstering the taser and side arm on the same side is a good idea.

I was thinking about this also, wouldn't it make sense to have the taser mounted on the persons front body armour, so drawing it for use is an entirely different muscle memory action compared to drawing a sidearm?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 26, 2021, 10:42:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 25, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Her actions don't sound reckless to me.

But I'm wondering if holstering the taser and side arm on the same side is a good idea.

Her taser was on the left side, and she would have had to draw it with her left hand and then transfer it to her right hand.  That was police policy precisely to prevent these sorts of accidents.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 25, 2021, 05:29:03 PM
Maybe I'm just too deferential to the concept of confirmation bias, and put too much weight on how devastating it can be to an innocent person with innocent intentions.


I think maybe I am too deferential to the innocent dead person and how devastating this was to them and their family.

And again, I don't think of someone pulling out a gun and shooting someone else all that "innocent".
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 26, 2021, 03:22:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:15:39 PMI think maybe I am too deferential to the innocent dead person and how devastating this was to them and their family.

And again, I don't think of someone pulling out a gun and shooting someone else all that "innocent".
Yeah and I think that is implicit in any crime that involves negligence - there's never an intent to do harm, or it would be straight up murder. I could be wrong, but I'd guess that's why (from my understanding) criminal negligence is relatively limited and it's basically when the consequences for the other person are extreme (manslaughter, death by dangerous driving, negligence of a child). Even though the intent may be innocent the consequence is so severe that it requires a criminal punishment.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2021, 03:26:22 PM
Reckless driving and child negligence are examples of innocent intent?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 26, 2021, 03:33:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2021, 03:26:22 PM
Reckless driving and child negligence are examples of innocent intent?  :huh:
Yeah - I think so.

If the alternative is intent then that's what the prosecution would have to prove. So the person set out to drive dangerously or to harm a child. If it's negligence it's just that, say, you're driving in a way that's below the level of a reasonable driver and that a reasonable driver would know is dangerous. Similar with child neglect and a reasonable parent.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 26, 2021, 03:35:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
I think maybe I am too deferential to the innocent dead person and how devastating this was to them and their family.
Plenty of completely innocent people die every year without the clearly guilty parties being criminally charged, and presumably it's always devastating to their families.  The goal of the criminal justice system seems to me to punish the criminal or reckless intent, not to exact revenge on behalf of the victims.  That doesn't mean that you get off without consequences if you kill someone due to your error, you're still civilly liable and will likely lose your career if you do that on the job.
QuoteAnd again, I don't think of someone pulling out a gun and shooting someone else all that "innocent".
We're just going in circles now.  Pulling out a taser and deploying it was an entirely innocent thing to do in that circumstance, it wasn't in any way inappropriate.  Yes, the taser in her mind turned out to be a gun, I think we all get that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 26, 2021, 03:36:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 25, 2021, 05:29:03 PM
Maybe I'm just too deferential to the concept of confirmation bias, and put too much weight on how devastating it can be to an innocent person with innocent intentions.


I think maybe I am too deferential to the innocent dead person and how devastating this was to them and their family.

And again, I don't think of someone pulling out a gun and shooting someone else all that "innocent".

Of course, resisting arrest and trying to flee doesn't seem "all that 'innocent,'" either.

One of he facts of which I was unaware was that Potter had the gun in her hand for more than five seconds before she fired.  Presumably, the prosecution argued that a reasonable person would realize within five seconds that the weapon in her hand was the heavier Glock and not the lighter tazer.

I'm still not seeing the reckless act on Potter's part.  Negligence, maybe.  But the judge seems to be using the reckless claim as the basis for sentencing Potter more severely than the sentencing guidelines call for. I'm tempted to think that the reckless charge (which was added to the count after the initial indictment) and conviction is designed to mollify the mob.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 26, 2021, 03:41:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 26, 2021, 03:33:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2021, 03:26:22 PM
Reckless driving and child negligence are examples of innocent intent?  :huh:
Yeah - I think so.

If the alternative is intent then that's what the prosecution would have to prove. So the person set out to drive dangerously or to harm a child. If it's negligence it's just that, say, you're driving in a way that's below the level of a reasonable driver and that a reasonable driver would know is dangerous. Similar with child neglect and a reasonable parent.
I don't think that lack of criminal intent means innocent intent.  There is a place in the middle between these two extremes, and that's precisely where manslaughter falls.  Manslaughter isn't a complete oops, it's a bad thing that results in a foreseeable but not foreseen deadly result.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:44:13 PM
When it comes to police, it is a bit harder though. This goes to I think part of what DG is saying.

If I drive my car and get into an accident and kill someone, then we have a process by which we try to figure out if this was just an accident, even a mistake on my part, that resulted in a tragedy, or something criminal, where my not following the rules and laws was so egregious that it is reasonable to hold me responsible, even if it was clear it was never my intent to kill anyone. But when I get into a car, there is never a contemplated scenario where I want to, or society wants me to, actually get into an accident.

That is not the case with police. We actually want them to tase people sometimes, and we even want them to shoot and kill people sometimes. That puts them at a different calculus I think, both in the level of care we ought to demand from them in the employment of force, but also in the level of tolerance we need to have with their mistakes when they do so.

At the end of the day, when a tragedy occures, we look at the facts and try to determine what went wrong. Was the process wrong? Training? Failure in mechanics? What? Where is the responsible party or parties?

Grumbler compared this to Baldwin killing someone. We do that same thing - who are the responsible parties? Is it Baldwin since he pulled the trigger? It is the person who handed him the loaded gun (which as I understand the process is implicitly a statement that the gun is in fact safe), is it whoever decided it would be a good idea to mix in real guns with the prop guns? I don't know the answer, hopefully the investigation will figure it out. I don't think it is Baldwin though - from what little I know about this, actors have to be the ones pulling the trigger on movie sets, but actors are probably the *last* people you want fucking around with prop guns, and it probably isn't even possible to have the actor properly check the safety of the prop.

But in this case, she wasn't handed a gun by someone else who said it was a taser. She is the only person involved in the chain of events (other then the victim, and I don't think that should be ignored either - you do stupid shit and get involved in cops having to tase you because you are a threat, you have already made choices that can certainly result in rather bad outcomes for a lot of people) that led to her pulling that trigger. If it wasn't her fault....then whose was it?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 26, 2021, 03:36:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 25, 2021, 05:29:03 PM
Maybe I'm just too deferential to the concept of confirmation bias, and put too much weight on how devastating it can be to an innocent person with innocent intentions.


I think maybe I am too deferential to the innocent dead person and how devastating this was to them and their family.

And again, I don't think of someone pulling out a gun and shooting someone else all that "innocent".

Of course, resisting arrest and trying to flee doesn't seem "all that 'innocent,'" either.

One of he facts of which I was unaware was that Potter had the gun in her hand for more than five seconds before she fired.  Presumably, the prosecution argued that a reasonable person would realize within five seconds that the weapon in her hand was the heavier Glock and not the lighter tazer.

I'm still not seeing the reckless act on Potter's part.  Negligence, maybe.  But the judge seems to be using the reckless claim as the basis for sentencing Potter more severely than the sentencing guidelines call for. I'm tempted to think that the reckless charge (which was added to the count after the initial indictment) and conviction is designed to mollify the mob.

Yeah, see my last post.

I definitely do agree that the victim is hardly entirely innocent. You do shit that results in a police officer deciding they need to tase you, then you are already into the realm of "Who the hell knows how this is going to turn out...."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 04:21:36 PM
Pretty good argument for why this was NOT manslaughter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UDCTx455Gc

They compare it to running a red light that kills two people.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 26, 2021, 04:25:25 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 04:21:36 PM
Pretty good argument for why this was NOT manslaughter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UDCTx455Gc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UDCTx455Gc)

They compare it to running a red light that kills two people.


Damn, I thought you were sarcastic when you said
Quote from: Berkut on December 25, 2021, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 24, 2021, 10:48:31 PMIf only we had someone who's profession was reading and understanding laws.  They might be able to clear this up.
I want to see the Youtube lawyers take on this.


Interesting video.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
I was actually thinking of that Legal Eagle guy. He does good stuff, IMO.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 26, 2021, 06:37:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
I was actually thinking of that Legal Eagle guy. He does good stuff, IMO.

I've been checking him daily for his take on this case.  Nothing yet.

But I did get sucked into about a dozen other videos by him that I'd previously skipped due to lack of time.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 26, 2021, 11:51:10 PM
This has been a good discussion.

I think DG and grumbler have convinced me. Or at least made me question my conclusions enough to go digging around for the actual legal standards involved to convince me.

I cannot see how her actions can be considered criminally negligent. She could not have known she was taking a deadly risk since she did not know she was firing a deadly weapon.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: chipwich on December 27, 2021, 02:59:21 AM
She didn't know she was firing a deadly weapon but she knew she was carrying one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 27, 2021, 03:05:57 AM
What may be helpful, then Berk - according to the NYT:
QuoteCOUNT I
First-degree manslaughter

One of the ways Minnesota law defines first-degree manslaughter is causing someone's death while committing or attempting to commit a lesser crime — a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor — in a way that a reasonable person could foresee would cause death or great bodily harm.

Specifically, prosecutors accused Ms. Potter of causing Mr. Wright's death through the reckless handling or use of a firearm.

First-degree manslaughter is a felony, punishable by up to 15 years' imprisonment and a fine of up to $30,000. The standard prison sentence for someone without a prior criminal record, like Ms. Potter, would be a little more than seven years.

COUNT II
Second-degree manslaughter

One of the ways Minnesota law defines second-degree manslaughter is causing someone's death through culpable negligence, by creating an unreasonable risk and consciously taking chances of causing death or great bodily harm.

Prosecutors persuaded the jury that Ms. Potter had done so in the use of her firearm.

Second-degree manslaughter is a felony, punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment and a fine of up to $20,000. The standard sentence for a person without any previous convictions would be about four years. But because Ms. Potter was also convicted of a more serious charge, first-degree manslaughter, in connection with the same death, this count is unlikely to affect the total length of her sentence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 27, 2021, 10:17:36 AM
The problem I have with the first-degree manslaughter charge (and verdict) is that it supposes that Potter mistakenly drawing her gun rather than her taser was itself a crime; that she would have been guilty of that crime even had she not pulled the trigger.  I don't buy that, and it mystifies me that the jury did.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 10:37:32 AM
Yeah, how do you define her attempting to engage in a perfectly legal apprehension as a crime? I do not see how first degree can even possible apply.

1. She was not commiting another crime. Even if she was ridiculously sloppy, what is the crime she was committing?
2. Being reckless with her weapon is not a crime. Was she charged with such a crime?

I think the first degree was basically just appealing to the juries sense of outrage, and I doubt it survives appeal.

The second degree seemed very much legit for me, until I dug into what is actually required for "culpable negligence". What is the actual, legal difference between negligence (which is a mistake that could result in you getting sued) and culpable/criminal negligence (which is a mistake that your can be held *criminally* liable for).

And that requires, as I understand it, three things (this is mostly from that video I posted).

1. You have to engage in a dangerous or reckless behavior that is not justified by the circumstances
2. You have to recognize that the behaviour is dangerous or reckless.
3. You have to disregard that danger and do it anyway.

Clearly #1 is there. She pointed her gun at someone and shot them.

But I don't think 2 or 3 are there. She did not know her actions were dangerous or reckless, nor did she disregard that knowledge (since she did not have it to begin with).
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: chipwich on December 27, 2021, 02:59:21 AM
She didn't know she was firing a deadly weapon but she knew she was carrying one.

The standard for criminal negligence demands that the person held criminally responsible be aware of the risks they are taking, and choosing to take that risk anyway.

I don't see how, given the information we have, that standard can be argued to have been met. Maybe the jury knows more then we do?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 27, 2021, 10:55:16 AM
That's pretty much where I am on this issue.  I think that first degree manslaughter is so outlandish that I'm wondering whether the prosecutors or the judge should suffer some professional consequences for allowing that to proceed.

I still can't help but go back to my original thought about the larger picture here:  it seems like the only time cops get reliably convicted for causing death is when they're actually making an honest mistake, and in those cases you can even make a case that they're being overly aggressively prosecuted.  The BART cop, the insurance executive grandpa playing a cop, Kim Potter, all went to prison because they fucked up under stress without meaning to take a life.  On the other hand, trigger happy psychos who executed Philando Castile or Daniel Shaver walked free after knowingly killing completely innocent victims of a situation, and even the cop who shot Walter Scott in cold blood had a mistrial and for some reason accepted a guilty plea before the second trial. 

The moral of the story seems to be: don't fess up, don't even try using a taser, just say he was reaching for a gun, the worst that can happen is that you'll have to go through an acquittal.  It doesn't pay to be honest, it just pays to look out for yourself.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 27, 2021, 11:59:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 10:37:32 AM
Yeah, how do you define her attempting to engage in a perfectly legal apprehension as a crime? I do not see how first degree can even possible apply.

1. She was not commiting another crime. Even if she was ridiculously sloppy, what is the crime she was committing?
2. Being reckless with her weapon is not a crime. Was she charged with such a crime?

I think the first degree was basically just appealing to the juries sense of outrage, and I doubt it survives appeal.

The crime the prosecution alleges she was committing when she committed the manslaughter was reckless handling of a firearm.  That must mean that her handling of it was reckless even in the absence of pulling the trigger, which, as I stated above, seems absurd.  It does not need to be separately charged if included in the first-degree manslaughter charge.  I am not sure that an overzealous indictment is appealable, nor is a jury's verdict.  The only grounds for appeal that I can see is that the judge improperly instructed the jury on the grounds for finding her guilty of first-degree manslaughter.  Lawtalkers would know better than I, though.

QuoteThe second degree seemed very much legit for me, until I dug into what is actually required for "culpable negligence". What is the actual, legal difference between negligence (which is a mistake that could result in you getting sued) and culpable/criminal negligence (which is a mistake that your can be held *criminally* liable for).

And that requires, as I understand it, three things (this is mostly from that video I posted).

1. You have to engage in a dangerous or reckless behavior that is not justified by the circumstances
2. You have to recognize that the behaviour is dangerous or reckless.
3. You have to disregard that danger and do it anyway.

Clearly #1 is there. She pointed her gun at someone and shot them.

But I don't think 2 or 3 are there. She did not know her actions were dangerous or reckless, nor did she disregard that knowledge (since she did not have it to begin with).

I think that the key here is not what she actually knew about the dangers of her actions, but what a reasonable person in her place should have known.  The key to the prosecution's case, as I understand it, is that a reasonable police officer with her training should have been able to recognize, in the five seconds between drawing her weapon and firing it, that she was not holding a taser.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 12:17:36 PM
I definitely agree hat a reasonable person, and certainly a reasonable police officer, SHOULD HAVE known. But that isn't the legal standard as far as I can tell. The legal standard is DID KNOW. She clearly did not.

I think the fact that she should have known means she is almost certainly liable to get sued and fired and be help responsible for her actions. To make it a crime though, it seems like the standard is not "should have known" but "did know".

But definitely the case for first degree just seems a bit ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 27, 2021, 09:45:15 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 12:17:36 PM
I definitely agree hat a reasonable person, and certainly a reasonable police officer, SHOULD HAVE known. But that isn't the legal standard as far as I can tell. The legal standard is DID KNOW. She clearly did not.

I think the fact that she should have known means she is almost certainly liable to get sued and fired and be help responsible for her actions. To make it a crime though, it seems like the standard is not "should have known" but "did know".

The standard isn't that the prosecution must show that she DID know, because that would be impossible, barring a confession.  The standard is more like "was what she did so far from the reasonable that it could only be due to willful negligence?" 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 10:05:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 27, 2021, 09:45:15 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 27, 2021, 12:17:36 PM
I definitely agree hat a reasonable person, and certainly a reasonable police officer, SHOULD HAVE known. But that isn't the legal standard as far as I can tell. The legal standard is DID KNOW. She clearly did not.

I think the fact that she should have known means she is almost certainly liable to get sued and fired and be help responsible for her actions. To make it a crime though, it seems like the standard is not "should have known" but "did know".

The standard isn't that the prosecution must show that she DID know, because that would be impossible, barring a confession.  The standard is more like "was what she did so far from the reasonable that it could only be due to willful negligence?" 

Anything that goes to intent suffers from that some "impossibility", yet there are many things in the law that require intent.

The prosecution does have to get a confession, they just have to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that she did in fact know, contrary to her testimony. That is still not the same as "should have known".

Otherwise the bar for criminal negligence looks pretty indistinguishable from the bar for just regular negligence.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 27, 2021, 11:50:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 23, 2021, 02:37:59 PM
Wow, Kim Potter found guilty on both charges.  Seems a little twisted how so many psychos with itchy trigger fingers don't even make it out of the grand jury, while someone who openly and credibly admitted to an awful mistake is found guilty.  Obviously the jury is aware of much more than what is known to the public, but given my level of knowledge, this outcome just seems to reward blue code of silence mafia approach to police accountability.
It's only surprising because police in America routinely get away with acts that are far more egregious than this.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 28, 2021, 08:19:28 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 27, 2021, 11:50:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 23, 2021, 02:37:59 PM
Wow, Kim Potter found guilty on both charges.  Seems a little twisted how so many psychos with itchy trigger fingers don't even make it out of the grand jury, while someone who openly and credibly admitted to an awful mistake is found guilty.  Obviously the jury is aware of much more than what is known to the public, but given my level of knowledge, this outcome just seems to reward blue code of silence mafia approach to police accountability.
It's only surprising because police in America routinely get away with acts that are far more egregious than this.

No, it's only surprising because the DA grossly over-charged, and the judge and jury went along with it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on December 28, 2021, 12:03:47 PM
Did other statutes or state Supreme Court rulings affect how this law is to be read?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 28, 2021, 02:17:29 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 27, 2021, 11:50:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 23, 2021, 02:37:59 PM
Wow, Kim Potter found guilty on both charges.  Seems a little twisted how so many psychos with itchy trigger fingers don't even make it out of the grand jury, while someone who openly and credibly admitted to an awful mistake is found guilty.  Obviously the jury is aware of much more than what is known to the public, but given my level of knowledge, this outcome just seems to reward blue code of silence mafia approach to police accountability.
It's only surprising because police in America routinely get away with acts that are far more egregious than this.

Do you have any data to support that?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on December 28, 2021, 02:30:16 PM
No idea if this is good law - but from a quick search this seems to be the elements from the Minnesota Supreme Court. Basically it's a mix of subjective and objective:
QuoteA person acts "recklessly" when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element of an offense exists or will result from his conduct; the risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation. A person acts "negligently" when he should be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element of an offense exists or will result from his conduct; the risk must be of such a nature and degree that his failure to perceive it involves a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the actor's situation. The difference between the terms "recklessly" and *320 "negligently," as thus defined, is one of kind rather than of degree. Each actor creates a risk of harm. The reckless actor is aware of the risk and disregards it; the negligent actor is not aware of the risk but should have been aware of it.
[...]
Stated differently, the statute requires proof of an objective element and a subjective element, the objective element being gross negligence and the subjective element being recklessness in the form of an actual conscious disregard of the risk created by the conduct.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 28, 2021, 02:34:05 PM
That fits with my understanding.  And by that definition I don't see how the officer was reckless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 28, 2021, 03:20:19 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 28, 2021, 02:30:16 PM
No idea if this is good law - but from a quick search this seems to be the elements from the Minnesota Supreme Court. Basically it's a mix of subjective and objective:
QuoteA person acts "recklessly" when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element of an offense exists or will result from his conduct; the risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation. A person acts "negligently" when he should be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element of an offense exists or will result from his conduct; the risk must be of such a nature and degree that his failure to perceive it involves a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the actor's situation. The difference between the terms "recklessly" and *320 "negligently," as thus defined, is one of kind rather than of degree. Each actor creates a risk of harm. The reckless actor is aware of the risk and disregards it; the negligent actor is not aware of the risk but should have been aware of it.
[...]
Stated differently, the statute requires proof of an objective element and a subjective element, the objective element being gross negligence and the subjective element being recklessness in the form of an actual conscious disregard of the risk created by the conduct.

That's pretty much what I said above.  Note the "reasonable person" and "law-abiding person" standards.  The act doesn't need to be compared to what the actor thought lawful; it is compared to what law-abiding or reasonable persons would think lawful.  There are defenses of legitimate belief in the lawfulness of an unlawful act, but those don't apply here.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 29, 2021, 10:07:35 AM
Quote from: grumbler on December 28, 2021, 03:20:19 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 28, 2021, 02:30:16 PM
No idea if this is good law - but from a quick search this seems to be the elements from the Minnesota Supreme Court. Basically it's a mix of subjective and objective:
QuoteA person acts "recklessly" when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element of an offense exists or will result from his conduct; the risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation. A person acts "negligently" when he should be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element of an offense exists or will result from his conduct; the risk must be of such a nature and degree that his failure to perceive it involves a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the actor's situation. The difference between the terms "recklessly" and *320 "negligently," as thus defined, is one of kind rather than of degree. Each actor creates a risk of harm. The reckless actor is aware of the risk and disregards it; the negligent actor is not aware of the risk but should have been aware of it.
[...]
Stated differently, the statute requires proof of an objective element and a subjective element, the objective element being gross negligence and the subjective element being recklessness in the form of an actual conscious disregard of the risk created by the conduct.

That's pretty much what I said above.  Note the "reasonable person" and "law-abiding person" standards.  The act doesn't need to be compared to what the actor thought lawful; it is compared to what law-abiding or reasonable persons would think lawful.  There are defenses of legitimate belief in the lawfulness of an unlawful act, but those don't apply here.

THis seems pretty key to me:

QuoteThe reckless actor is aware of the risk and disregards it; the negligent actor is not aware of the risk but should have been aware of it.

She was negligent, but not reckless.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 29, 2021, 10:31:03 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 29, 2021, 10:07:35 AM
THis seems pretty key to me:

QuoteThe reckless actor is aware of the risk and disregards it; the negligent actor is not aware of the risk but should have been aware of it.

She was negligent, but not reckless.

Yes.  That's been my argument all along.  The question the jury should have been considering, IMO, was whether her negligence amounted to a crime, not whether the crime was compounded by another crime or not.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Iormlund on December 29, 2021, 10:32:49 AM
Saw camera footage from an LAPD officer yesterday.

Guy basically grabs a rifle, shoves his mates out of the way while they tell him to hold up and then promptly shoots and kills the suspect (who poses no immediate danger to anyone at this point) ... and a 14 yo girl who was in the dressing room behind him.

If I was in the jury I would have a very hard time not convicting this guy of voluntary manslaughter.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 29, 2021, 10:51:06 AM
Yeah, a stark difference between negligence and recklessness being demonstrated in those two cases, to my untrained eyes anyway.  Even without the girl killed by a stray bullet this looks like a criminal case.  Shooting the suspect didn't seem justified, and the fact that Rambo seems to be the only one armed with assault rifle, a thing designed to penetrate objects by design, certainly doesn't help his case in the other death.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 29, 2021, 11:00:58 AM
Looking at it again, it looks like murder in the second degree for the attacker, and manslaughter in the first degree for the innocent girl, to me.  Obviously I'm not a lawyer, so I'd be curious what the lawyers think going by just the publicly known facts.

EDIT:  Or would the girl's death actually be felony murder if the shooting of the attacker was unjustified?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Iormlund on December 29, 2021, 11:25:21 AM
I thought murder required premeditation, but you are right.

In fact one of the examples of second-degree murder I saw when I was looking up Cali's laws was shooting in a crowded room.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 29, 2021, 11:29:42 AM
Quote from: grumbler on December 27, 2021, 11:59:29 AM
The crime the prosecution alleges she was committing when she committed the manslaughter was reckless handling of a firearm.  That must mean that her handling of it was reckless even in the absence of pulling the trigger, which, as I stated above, seems absurd.  It does not need to be separately charged if included in the first-degree manslaughter charge.

A defendant can appeal based on sufficiency of the evidence - that the conduct proved at trial is insufficient to prove the elements of the crime.  The standard is whether "the evidence, when viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict, was sufficient to allow a jury to return a guilty verdict."

The Minnesota appeals courts could use this case as vehicle to clarify the mental state requirements of the manslaughter laws.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 29, 2021, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 29, 2021, 10:51:06 AM
Yeah, a stark difference between negligence and recklessness being demonstrated in those two cases, to my untrained eyes anyway.  Even without the girl killed by a stray bullet this looks like a criminal case.  Shooting the suspect didn't seem justified, and the fact that Rambo seems to be the only one armed with assault rifle, a thing designed to penetrate objects by design, certainly doesn't help his case in the other death.
Okay, I was talking out of my ass a little.  It seems by design that there is someone with a rifle but not everyone, and it's natural for the one with the rifle to move to the front.  The shooting itself still doesn't seem justified, though, and it still seems like the shooter acted on his own initiative immediately before the shooting.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2021, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 29, 2021, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 29, 2021, 10:51:06 AM
Yeah, a stark difference between negligence and recklessness being demonstrated in those two cases, to my untrained eyes anyway.  Even without the girl killed by a stray bullet this looks like a criminal case.  Shooting the suspect didn't seem justified, and the fact that Rambo seems to be the only one armed with assault rifle, a thing designed to penetrate objects by design, certainly doesn't help his case in the other death.
Okay, I was talking out of my ass a little.  It seems by design that there is someone with a rifle but not everyone, and it's natural for the one with the rifle to move to the front.  The shooting itself still doesn't seem justified, though, and it still seems like the shooter acted on his own initiative immediately before the shooting.

This is a very different case though - this one will get into the reason most cop shooting go unpunished.

He was acting within his authority as a police officer, and he even though it turned out that the suspect was not the danger he thought it was, and even though shooting a fucking assault rifle inside a department store is fucking stupid, being stupid is generally not criminal.

There was someone who was a threat there, who had assaulted someone else. The jury will be asked to put themselves into the shoes of that police officer who had been told that someone inside the store was attacking people with a deadly weapon, and there was a potential shooting incident in progress. When they arrive, they find a victim bleeding on the floor.

This is not murder. This is a trigger happy police officer, bad training, and a tragic situation. And at least part of the problem here isn't with the cop, it is with a society that has so fucking heavily armed itself that cops do in fact go into situations like this one thinking that they are responding to something that does in fact happen rather often - a fucking nut with an assault weapon trying to kill as many people as they can. And the only way to respond to THAT situation is with a maximum of violence.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/27/us/lapd-teen-killed-dressing-room-valentina-orellana-peralta/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/27/us/lapd-teen-killed-dressing-room-valentina-orellana-peralta/index.html)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 30, 2021, 09:56:59 AM
The reason I think it was murder is because it doesn't seem like the attacker was presenting an immediate threat.  As far as I know, a cop can't legally just shoot someone who's walking away because the 911 call made it sound like he was a really dangerous guy.  It would be different if he was in the immediate vicinity of the victim and threatening to deal more damage.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2021, 10:21:32 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 30, 2021, 09:56:59 AM
The reason I think it was murder is because it doesn't seem like the attacker was presenting an immediate threat.  As far as I know, a cop can't legally just shoot someone who's walking away because the 911 call made it sound like he was a really dangerous guy.  It would be different if he was in the immediate vicinity of the victim and threatening to deal more damage.

That makes it a mistake though, not murder. The officer probably and can reasonably argue that he did think the person was an immediate threat, and if in fact the attacker was armed with a assault rifle, then walking away or not (and with the clear evidence from the officers perspective that he had already shot at least one person) he is in fact an immediate danger to everyone around.

Imagine a police officer responding to Sandy Hook or the Miami nightclub massacre. If they show up and see who they believe to be one of the attackers, and that attacker happens to be walking away at that particular moment, you are going to assume that they are doing so because they are likely looking for more people to shoot, and will certainly shoot you if you do anything other then blow their ass away.

Now, this is totally fucked up from the standpoint of what we as a society want, of course. We want our police to be rather careful before they whip out their assault rifle and start shooting people. But the reality is that "being careful" in a combat situation is a good way to end up dead, and that means a lot of other people end up dead as well.

Anyway, this is totally fucked up. Some dumb fucking kid is dead (I do wonder what his deal was - why is he rando attacking people in a department store with a bike lock???) and some poor girl is dead, and some dumb fucking cop killed them and will have to live with that.

I don't really know of course, but I don't see this at all like that cop who shot the dude in the hallway in Vegas, where it was pretty fucking clear he was itching for a chance to murder someone.

I suspect this guy thought, at the moment he pulled the trigger, that he was doing the right thing. In contrast to the guy in Vegas who when he pulled the trigger was thinking "Sweet, I am totally going to blow this dude away!"
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Iormlund on December 30, 2021, 10:51:51 AM
His buddies are shouting at him to slow down and hold up. He has a lot of backup, with more appropriate weapons for a crowded place (handguns, what looks like a taser, a shotgun).

The vibe I get from watching the footage is he was itching to kill someone, and his day had finally come. And he got two for the price of one.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on December 30, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 30, 2021, 10:21:32 AM
That makes it a mistake though, not murder.
I get where you're coming from, he was dealing with an actual situation that required an aggressive police response, but I don't think that unjustified shooting is merely a mistake in the legal sense.  If he mistook some action from the attacker as reaching for a gun, then the shooting wouldn't be unjustified (as problematic as it can be, because without body cams, the dead guy is always reaching for a gun).  However, it's not merely a mistake when you blow away a guy when the use of force guidelines say you can't blow away a guy.  Consciously killing someone without permission is a serious crime.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2021, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 30, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 30, 2021, 10:21:32 AM
That makes it a mistake though, not murder.
I get where you're coming from, he was dealing with an actual situation that required an aggressive police response, but I don't think that unjustified shooting is merely a mistake in the legal sense.  If he mistook some action from the attacker as reaching for a gun, then the shooting wouldn't be unjustified (as problematic as it can be, because without body cams, the dead guy is always reaching for a gun).  However, it's not merely a mistake when you blow away a guy when the use of force guidelines say you can't blow away a guy.  Consciously killing someone without permission is a serious crime.

I think historically courts have given rather wide latitude to police officers when it comes to questions of judgement on the use of force when they can credibly argue they were acting in good faith.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on December 30, 2021, 08:02:23 PM
If the department store shoot was legit within the rules of the LAPD, then the Chief needs to resign and the rules re-written.  The shooter took no time to evaluate the situation and shot as soon as he possibly could, ignoring the cautions of his fellow officers to slow down and hold up (I suspect they were concerned that he was a hothead).   As we know, an officer in Minnesota was convicted of what California calls "voluntary manslaughter" on a much flimsier basis; this case could easily be charged as second-degree murder. 

Cops have frequently not even been charged in incidents amounting to second-degree murder (see: Breonna Taylor shooting), but I'm not sure that will fly in today's climate


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on January 11, 2022, 09:59:06 AM
https://kotaku.com/lapd-officers-fired-for-ignoring-robbery-to-play-pokemo-1848335699

QuoteLAPD Officers Fired For Ignoring Robbery To Play Pokémon Go

Rather than assist a fellow officer, these cops were in pursuit of a Snorlax

Two officers of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) were fired due to, among other things, playing Pokémon Go, a newly published court document reveals (h/t Axios).

Louis Lozano and Eric Mitchell, beat cops with a combined 28 years on the job, were found through a 2017 investigation to have ignored a commanding officer's request for assistance in handling an in-progress robbery at a nearby Macy's. Rather than respond, the two left the area in the hopes of capturing Snorlaxes and Togetics in Pokémon Go. This decision, caught by the digital in-car video system (DICVS) dash cam, as well as attempts to lie about their actions, ultimately led to the officers' firing from the LAPD.

Reps for Lozano and Mitchell subsequently filed a petition seeking to appeal this decision, arguing that the use of the DICVS footage as part of the official investigation into their conduct violated protections on private conversations between officers. This appeal was denied on January 7, giving us an excellent sneak peek at the hilarious events as they played out in the police cruiser on that fateful day.

For approximately the next 20 minutes, the DICVS captured petitioners discussing Pokémon as they drove to different locations where the virtual creatures apparently appeared on their mobile phones. On their way to the Snorlax location, Officer Mitchell alerted Officer Lozano that "a Togetic just popped up," noting it was "on Crenshaw, just South of 50th." After Mitchell apparently caught the Snorlax—exclaiming, "Got 'em"—petitioners agreed to "go get the Togetic" and drove off. When their car stopped again, the DICVS recorded Mitchell saying, "Don't run away. Don't run away," while Lozano described how he "buried it and ultra-balled" the Togetic before announcing, "Got him." Mitchell advised he was "still trying to catch it," adding, "Holy crap, man. This thing is fighting the crap out of me." Eventually Mitchell exclaimed, "Holy Crap. Finally," apparently in reference to capturing the Togetic, and he remarked, "The[ ] guys are going to be so jealous." Petitioners then agreed to return to the 7-Eleven (where Sergeant Gomez later met them) to end their watch. On the way, Mitchell remarked, "I got you a new Pokémon today, dude."

The court documents: https://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B307412.PDF
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 11, 2022, 10:19:36 AM
 :lol:  I saw this story on my Google News feed as well, looks like it's making rounds.  Maybe appealing didn't work out well for them.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on January 13, 2022, 02:45:05 PM
Not police - but criminal justice. This story is incredible and horrifying:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/12/nyregion/rikers-jail-videos.html?smid=tw-share
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on January 24, 2022, 10:21:32 AM
Here is a story from a little while ago that appeared on my feed yesterday: https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/cop-fatally-struck-nurse-actions-crash-shock-victims-loved-ones-rcna12072.  It hits several boxes:  cops acting like some rules won't apply to them, and then displays of "professional courtesy" that demonstrate why cops are so confident that some rules won't apply to them.  I wonder how many non-cops can talk to New Jersey State Police on the side of the road, appear intoxicated, have a body in their car of the person they admitted to hitting, and go home without getting arrested.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on March 03, 2022, 02:13:34 PM
Pro-police art from ... a simpler time? :unsure:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FM8iSLfX0AY33Yq?format=png&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FM8iqV3XwAMqmgc?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FM8N5N9X0AUkNMc?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on March 03, 2022, 07:56:50 PM
Do cops usually do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation? Seems like something you would put for EMS personnel.

Beyond it kind of looking iffy in general  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on March 03, 2022, 08:41:38 PM
Cops definitely know how to do CPR, and it's not something you can leave for later.  These days they would probably do chest compressions only, though.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on March 03, 2022, 10:25:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 03, 2022, 07:56:50 PMDo cops usually do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation? Seems like something you would put for EMS personnel.

Beyond it kind of looking iffy in general  :ph34r:


It rarely works.  The secret is to look like you are doing something.  It'll never work if you hold the patient in your arms like that.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2022, 01:20:27 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 03, 2022, 08:41:38 PMCops definitely know how to do CPR, and it's not something you can leave for later.  These days they would probably do chest compressions only, though.

Well I know they can. I was talking about choosing that image for pro-cop propaganda. Seems more something you would use to glorify EMS personnel.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2022, 08:51:43 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 03, 2022, 08:41:38 PMCops definitely know how to do CPR, and it's not something you can leave for later.  These days they would probably do chest compressions only, though.

You got certified in the police academy because of state requirements, but would not be re-certified and we were told not to engage in it.  That's what medics are for.  Union rules.   
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2022, 08:58:06 AM
lol

My Dad was, like, "great, another TV show making the BPD look bad."  :lol:  Because, hey, the BPD doesn't do that enough on its own, right.

QuotePremieres april 25 at 9 pm
We Own This City

Executive produced by George Pelecanos (The Deuce) and David Simon (The Wire) -- and based on the book by Baltimore Sun reporter Justin Fenton -- We Own This City is a six-hour, limited series chronicling the rise and fall of the Baltimore Police Department's Gun Trace Task Force. It examines the corruption and moral collapse that befell an American city in which the policies of drug prohibition and mass arrest were championed at the expense of actual police work.

The cast includes Jon Bernthal (The Walking Dead, Show Me a Hero), Josh Charles (The Good Wife, In Treatment), Wunmi Mosaku (Lovecraft Country), and Jamie Hector (BOSCH, The Wire), among many others. See the full cast here.

Pelecanos and Simon also serve as writers, along with director and executive producer Reinaldo Marcus Green. They are joined by longtime collaborators Nina K. Noble as executive producer, and Ed Burns as writer/executive producer. HBO alum Kary Antholis also serves as executive producer; Bill Zorzi as writer/co-executive producer, and D. Watkins as writer.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on March 16, 2022, 09:15:17 AM
QuoteIt examines the corruption and moral collapse that befell an American city in which the policies of drug prohibition and mass arrest were championed at the expense of actual police work.

Thanks for the spoilers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sophie Scholl on March 16, 2022, 04:51:56 PM
Oh.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on March 16, 2022, 05:30:35 PM
That does really change how one understands the story yes.

Well here is hoping his victim survives and the murder-suicide becomes an assault with a deadly weapon-suicide.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2022, 05:38:31 PM
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on March 16, 2022, 04:51:56 PMOh.

Way to go, Channel 12. Made 'em break out their blue stripe flags for nothing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on March 16, 2022, 05:42:39 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2022, 05:38:31 PM
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on March 16, 2022, 04:51:56 PMOh.

Way to go, Channel 12. Made 'em break out their blue stripe flags for nothing.

 :lol:

I am a little confused about those things. I was told my whole life "NEVER DESECRATE THE GLORIOUS STARS AN STRIPES" but then at some point it became patriotic to change the colors on it.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 16, 2022, 06:07:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 16, 2022, 05:42:39 PMI am a little confused about those things. I was told my whole life "NEVER DESECRATE THE GLORIOUS STARS AN STRIPES" but then at some point it became patriotic to change the colors on it.

It's completely political and nothing more than a moneymaker for some people. There is not a single law enforcement memorial foundation to date that actively endorses that bullshit. Some police unions maybe, but it's simply the rebel flag by proxy.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on March 17, 2022, 12:47:05 AM
(https://i.redd.it/eyi0vmnza9m81.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on March 17, 2022, 06:15:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 17, 2022, 12:47:05 AM(https://i.redd.it/eyi0vmnza9m81.png)

Wow!  That's brilliant.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 03, 2022, 03:29:00 PM
Looks like Akron is gonna burn soon.

When you add the 60 bullets to the abortion denied to a 10 year old rape victim, I wonder if Ohio qualifies as a cesspool?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on July 03, 2022, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 03, 2022, 03:29:00 PMLooks like Akron is gonna burn soon.

When you had the 60 bullets to the abortion denied to a 10 year old rape victim, I wonder if Ohio qualifies as a cesspool?

It always has been.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2022, 09:46:37 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 03, 2022, 03:29:00 PMLooks like Akron is gonna burn soon.

When you add the 60 bullets to the abortion denied to a 10 year old rape victim, I wonder if Ohio qualifies as a cesspool?

I just learned that the dude was shooting at the cops.  How in the world is that not a righteous kill?  :huh:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 04, 2022, 10:13:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2022, 09:46:37 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on July 03, 2022, 03:29:00 PMLooks like Akron is gonna burn soon.

When you add the 60 bullets to the abortion denied to a 10 year old rape victim, I wonder if Ohio qualifies as a cesspool?

I just learned that the dude was shooting at the cops.  How in the world is that not a righteous kill?  :huh:

Yeah, if you shoot at cops and then leave your gun in the car while fleeing, it isn't reasonable to expect that the cops would know that you were unarmed when they fired.

I am kinda wondering how thirteen cops got on the scene when the whole thing took only "several minutes" from the initial traffic stop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 04, 2022, 10:43:57 PM
In a city it doesn't strike me as surprising that thirteen cops would get on the scene in a minute.  The density of cop cars per square mile would be much higher in an urban area, and if the shots are fired, then every cop from every jurisdiction in the area would drop what they're doing and get going.  I've seen a lot of traffic stop videos where a call for a backup in a city setting seems to be answered instantly, as if 5 patrol cars were just sitting there waiting for the signal to get to the scene.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 07, 2022, 01:03:47 PM
Dilbert creator Scott Adams weighs in on mass shootings committed by young men.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXE9ZtlXoAAIdSU?format=png&name=large)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on July 07, 2022, 01:09:02 PM
Is that for real? I know the guy was off the deep end, but that's... wow.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on July 07, 2022, 01:12:36 PM
It's real. Ditto his stepson dying.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on July 07, 2022, 01:23:37 PM
I read about his stepson dying on his wiki. Fentanyl OD, apparently. I guess Adams doesn't believe in drug rehab.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on July 07, 2022, 03:36:56 PM
When an old male (let's say 60-70) is a danger to his career and others, society gives his fans only two options:
1.  Watch him wreck his career by saying stupid shit
2.  Tell him to STFU.

Those are your only options.  I chose #1 because it is funny as hell to watch a Trumpeter nail himself to a cross.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Barrister on July 07, 2022, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 07, 2022, 03:36:56 PMWhen an old male (let's say 60-70) is a danger to his career and others, society gives his fans only two options:
1.  Watch him wreck his career by saying stupid shit
2.  Tell him to STFU.

Those are your only options.  I chose #1 because it is funny as hell to watch a Trumpeter nail himself to a cross.

Not sure why, but I decided to check out the most recent Dilbert cartoons after seeing Scott Adams name - wondered how they were.

This weeks cartoons are fine, but the week before he did a whole series on rigged voting machines. :bleeding:
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on July 07, 2022, 03:56:01 PM
Chauvin got 21 years for violating George Floyd's civil rights.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 09, 2022, 01:22:29 AM
A post scriptum to Scott Adams' posts. I think he needs professional help. :(

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYx1x699/image.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on July 09, 2022, 08:37:17 PM
What the fuck? So I take it his step-son committed suicide? I guess that would fuck up anybody. Poor dude.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 14, 2022, 11:35:58 PM
https://www.whec.com/rochester-new-york-news/exclusive-rpd-investigator-on-desk-duty-following-dispute-with-emt-in-ambulance-bay/6526199/?cat=565

QuoteExclusive: RPD Investigator on desk duty following dispute with EMT in ambulance bay

ROCHESTER, N.Y. (WHEC) — A Rochester Police investigator has been put on desk duty following an altercation with an EMT outside and inside the emergency department at Strong Memorial Hospital.

The investigator's car was parked in the ambulance bay in front of the emergency room when an EMT hit it while opening her door to unload a patient.  Sources tell News10NBC that the investigator insisted on getting her identification, she insisted on bringing the patient inside first. News10NBC Investigative Reporter Jennifer Lewke was able to get an exclusive video of what happened from there. 

The incident happened on Monday.  The ambulance bay in front of the emergency room is typically reserved for ambulances only but the investigator was parked there, planning to go inside for a case.  Sources tell News10NBC that's when the EMT from Monroe Ambulance got out to unload the patient and hit the police car with her door.

The investigator asked for identification but the EMT was intent on getting her patient inside first.  She kept moving with the man on a stretcher and when she was at the check-in desk, she was approached by the investigator, her arm pulled behind her back and cuffed before forcefully being taken outside to a police car

The Rochester Police Department tells News10NBC that the investigator in the video has been placed on administrative assignment and "at the direction of Chief Smith, the professional standards section is currently conducting an internal investigation."

A spokesman for Monroe Ambulance says the agency is waiting for the outcome of the RPD investigation but believes its EMT was appropriately singularly focused on patient care.

Both supervisors for Monroe Ambulance and RPD responded to the incident.  The EMT was released from custody, she was not charged or ticketed.

Rochester Police Chief David Smith released the following statement:

"The Rochester Police Department prides itself on providing professional and courteous services to our community. On July 11, 2022, a member of the Rochester Police Department and an employee of Monroe Ambulance were involved in an incident at Strong Hospital. Chief Smith was notified of the incident and immediately directed an internal investigation by the Professional Standards Section. Pending the internal investigation, the member involved has been placed on administrative assignment. We ask for patience as we ensure that a thorough and complete investigation is completed."


Video at the link.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on July 14, 2022, 11:48:39 PM
I had an idea that all the police shenanigans in the US is because of the large number of police officers. That there are many more in the US compared to Europe and that's why we see all these stupid US cops.

Well, apparently the US has something like 700k cops, about 239/100k.

EU has 1.6 million, 318/100k.

So I was wrong.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Zoupa on July 15, 2022, 12:17:01 AM
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that the EMT is black, while the cop is white.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on July 15, 2022, 12:18:10 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 14, 2022, 11:48:39 PMI had an idea that all the police shenanigans in the US is because of the large number of police officers. That there are many more in the US compared to Europe and that's why we see all these stupid US cops.

Well, apparently the US has something like 700k cops, about 239/100k.

EU has 1.6 million, 318/100k.

So I was wrong.
We may not have a large number of police officers, but we have a number of large police officers. 
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Threviel on July 15, 2022, 01:20:36 AM
Y
Quote from: DGuller on July 15, 2022, 12:18:10 AM
Quote from: Threviel on July 14, 2022, 11:48:39 PMI had an idea that all the police shenanigans in the US is because of the large number of police officers. That there are many more in the US compared to Europe and that's why we see all these stupid US cops.

Well, apparently the US has something like 700k cops, about 239/100k.

EU has 1.6 million, 318/100k.

So I was wrong.
We may not have a large number of police officers, but we have a number of large police officers. 

Yeah, there is probably a lot more humanity working as cops in the US, but that won't help the per capita numbers.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 20, 2022, 02:07:12 AM
I randomly saw that yesterday there was another case in Sweden of an armed man who threatened police officers being shot in the leg and arrested. In spite of conventional wisdom being that they should have acted responsibly and put 24 rounds in his chest. :(
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on July 20, 2022, 09:22:33 AM
Poor training?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on July 20, 2022, 09:26:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 20, 2022, 02:07:12 AMI randomly saw that yesterday there was another case in Sweden of an armed man who threatened police officers being shot in the leg and arrested. In spite of conventional wisdom being that they should have acted responsibly and put 24 rounds in his chest. :(

Sorry but your conventional wisdom is wrong. Several of those rounds should hit bystanders.

Unless the shooter is at a school. Then conventional wisdom is to go rough up parents or play Candy Crush on your phone for hour.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on July 27, 2022, 03:21:14 AM
https://www.aol.com/night-terror-female-inmates-raped-140023862.html?

Quote'Night of terror': Female inmates raped when male detainees bribed guard, lawsuit says

Female inmates at an Indiana jail were subjected to a "night of terror" when male detainees gained access to their cells, the women allege in a lawsuit.

The lawsuit was filed Friday, July 22, by eight women against Clark County Sheriff Jamey Noel and current and former Clark County Jail officers. It's the second lawsuit filed this summer following the alleged incident, with 20 women filing suit in June, court records show.

The women claim that on Oct. 23, 2021, jail officer David Lowe gave two male detainees keys to the interior of the jail in exchange for $1,000.

That night, the two male detainees and other male inmates went into restricted areas of the jail that housed women, according to the lawsuit.

"Numerous male detainees used the keys obtained from Lowe to enter Pods 4(E) and 4(F), where they raped, assaulted, harassed, threatened and intimidated the plaintiffs in this lawsuit, and other women, for several hours, resulting in significant physical and emotional injuries," the lawsuit filed in the United States District Court of the Southern District of Indiana says.

The men threatened to further harm the women if they pressed the emergency call button, according to the lawsuit.

The women claim in the lawsuit that no jail officers came to their aid throughout the night, despite the assaults being viewable on surveillance video.

Scottie Maples, chief deputy for the Clark County Sheriff's Department, said that when the first lawsuit was filed, the department would not comment on pending lawsuits, according to the News and Tribune.

Sheriff Noel has not publicly commented on the lawsuits.

The Clark County Jail is in Jeffersonville, about 2 miles north of Louisville, Kentucky.

Days after the alleged incident, Lowe was fired and charged with trafficking with an inmate, aiding escape and official misconduct, WDRB reported. The station said Lowe admitted to accepting the bribe and allowing inmates to access restricted areas of the jail.

His criminal jury trial is scheduled for September, WHAS reported.

A previous civil rights lawsuit was filed in June by 20 women against Noel, Lowe and unnamed jail officers.

"Women were harassed, sexually assaulted, threatened and completely terrified," Bart Betteau, an attorney for one of the plaintiffs, told WTHR. "When I met with each and every one of these women, and they broke down repeatedly, you get the impression, the understanding of what these women went through."

At the time of the previous lawsuit, Maples said the rape claims were investigated internally and no rape charges have been filed, according to WHAS.

After the Oct. 23 incident, jail officials punished the women by leaving the lights on for 72 straight hours, denying them normal privileges and confiscating pillows, blankets and hygiene items, according to the lawsuit.

"The violation of the Plaintiffs' constitutional rights was the result not only of a single bad actor, Lowe, but also due to a systemic failure on behalf of the Clark County Sheriff who failed to properly staff the jail, train the jail officers, and supervise the jail officers to make sure they maintained adequate security at the jail," the July lawsuit states.

The women in both lawsuits are seeking compensatory damages and jury trials.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 27, 2022, 03:39:06 AM
They're suing the officers. How does this work exactly, shouldn't they sue the county as well? Or is the county liable through its officers? Or has the county already settled?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 27, 2022, 09:02:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 27, 2022, 03:39:06 AMThey're suing the officers. How does this work exactly, shouldn't they sue the county as well? Or is the county liable through its officers? Or has the county already settled?

This is a feature of the odd operation of the American constitutional system in these kinds of cases  States are protected by sovereign immunity and can't be sued for their conduct of government operations. Technically this doctrine doesn't apply to local governments like municipalities but functionally the Supreme Court has made them immune for any conduct by officials or state employees not clearly authorized by policy. Since few municipalities or counties have an official policy of abusing citizens or inmates, in practice that means the local governments are effectively immune.

The courts instead have created a kind of Rube Goldberg system of private liability where people injured or deprived of civil rights by government action can instead sue the individual officers involved on a private tort claim, but only if they thread their way through a complex "qualified immunity" doctrine created by the courts to protect state officials from lots of lawsuits.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on July 27, 2022, 09:38:16 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 27, 2022, 09:02:25 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 27, 2022, 03:39:06 AMThey're suing the officers. How does this work exactly, shouldn't they sue the county as well? Or is the county liable through its officers? Or has the county already settled?

This is a feature of the odd operation of the American constitutional system in these kinds of cases  States are protected by sovereign immunity and can't be sued for their conduct of government operations. Technically this doctrine doesn't apply to local governments like municipalities but functionally the Supreme Court has made them immune for any conduct by officials or state employees not clearly authorized by policy. Since few municipalities or counties have an official policy of abusing citizens or inmates, in practice that means the local governments are effectively immune.

The courts instead have created a kind of Rube Goldberg system of private liability where people injured or deprived of civil rights by government action can instead sue the individual officers involved on a private tort claim, but only if they thread their way through a complex "qualified immunity" doctrine created by the courts to protect state officials from lots of lawsuits.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 19, 2022, 07:35:04 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/colpeoplespress/status/1559908887243128832

QuoteCW Police Shooting: after putting his hsnds up, giving himself up and disarming himself 3 Denver police officers shoot man and 6 bystanders. DPD has said they felt their actions were justified. DPD were the only ones to fire any shots.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on August 19, 2022, 10:57:51 AM
Well I have to admit the facts don't sound good for DPD there.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Berkut on August 19, 2022, 11:55:21 AM
Meh. Sounds like they fucked up, but not maliciously so.

Dude stuck his hand into his hoodie and pulled out a gun. Cop reacted before realizing he was throwing the gun away.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Brain on August 19, 2022, 11:58:41 AM
Frank Drebin: "..., luckily they turned out to be bystanders."
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2022, 09:29:53 PM
Oklahoma Inmate Forced To Listen to 'Baby Shark' on a Loop Found Dead (https://www.newsweek.com/oklahoma-inmate-forced-listen-baby-shark-loop-found-dead-1742089)

This is the kind of headline that makes you go... wut??

But it's dead serious.

Inmate was forced to listen to Baby Shark on loop.  His guards were fired.  Than he was found dead just before testifying against them. :(

Better text here:
Key witness in 'Baby Shark' cases against jailers found dead in jail (https://freepressokc.com/key-witness-in-baby-shark-cases-against-jailers-found-dead-in-jail/)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on October 04, 2022, 03:19:05 PM
Police officer investigating allegation of LAPD gang rape dies in alleged accident. Lawyer for his family alleges he was beaten to death by other officers - one of the alleged rapists were present at the officer's death.

https://jezebel.com/lapd-officer-killed-in-training-accident-was-investig-1849612351?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2022, 11:35:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apuhj_G90QQ

Body cam footage of George Floyd's arrest.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on November 10, 2022, 02:21:15 AM
Into snuff films now?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 10, 2022, 03:01:01 AM
I like to have information about public issues.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 10, 2022, 06:47:54 AM
He was murdered in public, so there you go.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on November 14, 2022, 11:26:30 AM
Shooting at uVA
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on November 14, 2022, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 14, 2022, 11:26:30 AMShooting at uVA

Three members of the football team shot by a former member of the team.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Oexmelin on November 14, 2022, 10:13:53 PM
Yes. Picked the wrong mega thread. It was meant to go in the other type of routine shooting in the US.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on November 15, 2022, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 14, 2022, 10:13:53 PMYes. Picked the wrong mega thread. It was meant to go in the other type of routine shooting in the US.
There were two in Montreal last week, near colleges.  You'll soon need a thread for Montreal (well, the GTMA) too the way things are going.

Thankfully, we have a gun registry in Quebec, and Justin-the-Wise has banned legal handgun sales so these things are only happening in our imagination. :)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on January 27, 2023, 05:59:00 PM
Not a shooting - instead an hour long beating - and there have been charges, but it sounds like this is going to be horrific based on them planning to release it at 6 when people have many businesses/schools etc will have closed.

On the other hand the fact they've been fired and charged seems like a department doing the right thing at least:
QuoteRelease of police video is timed with public reaction in mind.
Sometimes body camera footage is made public within hours; other times it takes months. Memphis officials chose a time when businesses would be closed and the charges over Tyre Nichols's death were already known.

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/01/27/multimedia/27tyre-nichols-death-video-release-timing-topart-qkwh/27tyre-nichols-death-video-release-timing-topart-qkwh-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp)
Mourners gathered at a candlelight vigil in Memphis on Thursday night, after the authorities announced criminal charges against five police officers over the death of Tyre Nichols.Credit...Brad J. Vest for The New York Times
By Eliza Fawcett and Jesus Jiménez
    Jan. 27, 2023, 3:36 p.m. ET

Bracing for public outrage, the authorities in Memphis have chosen to wait until shortly after 6 p.m. Central time on Friday to release video of the police encounter that resulted in Tyre Nichols's death.

Mr. Nichols was hospitalized on Jan. 7 following a traffic stop that escalated into a brutal beating; he died three days later. The five officers involved in the encounter were fired last week and were arrested Thursday on second-degree murder and other charges.

Officials have said that the video footage is nearly an hour long, and was obtained from police body cameras and stationary cameras. It is being released with limited redactions, the officials said.


Chief Cerelyn Davis of the Memphis police has said that the video shows a "heinous, reckless and inhumane" incident that she expects will draw public outrage.

Some Memphis city council members who were not involved in deciding when to release the video said they supported the plan to wait until after schools and many businesses in the city had closed for the night.

"Friday at 6 p.m., very, very few people will be at work," said Frank Colvett Jr., a councilman from the city's east side. "Everyone will have had plenty of time to get home from school, from their jobs, and just stay home."

Another council member, Dr. Jeff Warren, said he thought waiting until Friday evening would "allow time for people to digest the fact that arrests had been made and charges had been brought."

Anticipating protests after the video is made public, local civic leaders, members of Mr. Nichols's family and President Biden have urged demonstrators to remain peaceful.

Michael Lawlor, an associate professor of criminal justice at the University of New Haven, noted that the delayed release gave the Memphis and Shelby County authorities time to investigate and fire the five officers and to arrest and indict them before the public saw the video.

"They anticipate people will be shocked and horrified by what they see," Professor Lawlor said. "And before that happens, they want to make sure it's very clear what the official reaction to this is: The officers charged with murder, second degree."

In other high-profile cases of police-involved deaths, the timing of the release of body camera footage has varied widely. Sometimes the video has been made public swiftly to emphasize transparency.

The authorities in Columbus, Ohio, released video footage of Ma'Khia Bryant's fatal encounter with the police just a few hours after she was shot and killed by an officer in April 2021. That same month, when Daunte Wright was fatally shot by a police officer at a traffic stop in Brooklyn Center, Minn., the authorities showed graphic body camera footage to reporters the next day.

But laws in some states can make the release take much longer, and in some cases, police departments have withheld video footage out of fear over the public's reaction to seeing it.

When Daniel Prude died in March 2020 while being detained by the police in Rochester, N.Y., police commanders intentionally delayed releasing body camera footage of the encounter for months. Ultimately, it was Mr. Prude's family who made the footage public in September 2020.

Kami Chavis, a law professor at William & Mary Law School, said that the expected release of the Tyre Nichols video in Memphis seemed "timely."

"Violence has erupted in other cities when you've had different situations, where the officers haven't been named or fired or arrested," she said, but those steps "happened very quickly in this situation."


Eliza Fawcett is a reporter for the National desk and a member of the 2022-2023 New York Times fellowship class. @ElizaFawcett

Jesus Jiménez is a breaking news reporter. @jesus_jimz
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on January 27, 2023, 09:16:31 PM
Video released. A transcript is in the first post in this reddit thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/comments/10n0hv7/comment/j66c5y7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

QuoteFor those that don't want to watch, here's what the videos show.

Video 1 shows the stop of Tyre by three cops who are in unmarked cars. The first minute is silent, and just shows the officer wearing it driving. Just before sound kicks in, he turns on flashing lights in his car and pulls up behind Tyre. he gets out of the car, and the video shows one Tyre's car at a stop light with his left turn signal blinking. There is an unmarked car pulled up Parallel next to Tyre's car, in the lane of oncoming traffic, and does not appear to have any blue flashing lights. One officer is standing near the driver's door of this vehicle, and another is standing at the passenger side of Tyre's car. Both officers have their guns drawn and pointed at Tyre. The first thing we hear is one officer yelling, "You're gonna get your ass blown the fuck up!" The officer wearing the camera draws his gun. The officer that was near the unmarked car moves aroudn the back of that car, then moves up to Tyre's driver door. The cop wearing the camera follows. The first cop opens the door, holsters his gun, says, "Get the fuck outta the car." and reaches in to grab Tyre. The officer starts to drag Tyre out of the car while repeating "Get the fuck out the fuckin car." Tyre says, "Damn man, I didn't do anything!" Tyre turns to face the officer who has dragged him out the car, and the cop with the camera runs up and grabs Tyre and says, "Turn your ass around." Tyre allows the cop dragging him to put one hand behind his back and repeats, "alright alright alright" in a tone that's clearly meant to try and keep things from escalating. One of the three cops starts repeating "on the ground, on the ground, on the ground", and the cop who was holding Tyre's hand behind his back shoves him to the ground. The video is jumpy, but we can hear Tyre continue to repeat "alright, alright alright". The three cops can be heard yelling "GET ON THE GROUND" and telling Tyre "YOU DON'T FUCKING DO THAT, YOU DON'T TURN AROUND." The three cops appear to be wrestling him to the ground. One cop says, "I'm gonna taze yo ass!" Tyre continues to repeat "alright alright" and calmly says, "alright, i'm on the ground." We can see Tyre sitting on the ground. One cop yells "Turn around!" while another simultaneously yells "LAY DOWN!!" We see one cop holding Tyre's left arm while Tyre turns to the cop who threatened to taze him and very slowly and calmly says, "STOP!! Alright, Ok!" And Tyre lays on his right side on the ground, with the one cop still holding his left hand. The cop wearing the camera pulls out his tazer, presses it against Tyre's leg, and angrily says, "I'm gonna taze your shit." We can see Tyre's right hand is empty and held up to the third officer, who is making no attempt to secure his hand. One cop says, "TURN THE FUCK AROUND." Then all three yell incoherently. The cop who has been holding Tyre's left arm yells, "BITCH PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK, and puts Tyre's left hand behind his back. Tyre cannot lay on his stomach because this officer is rotating Tyre onto his back. Tyre repeatedly says,. "OK! OK!" and says, "You guys are really doing a lot right now!", his voice cracking in fear. One cop is holding Tyre's right arm on the ground, while the one cop is still holding his arm behind his back. One of the cops says, "Man...if you don't lay down.." and Tyre responds, "I"M LAYING ON THE GROUND!". It is clear that Tyre has surrendered, and the cops' actions are physically preventing him from complying with their commands. The cops pepper spray Tyre. Tyre yells, "STOP IM NOT DOING ANYTHING". The cops then all get off of him, and Tyre gets up and apepars to try to run away. The cop who tazed him initally shoots his Tazer at Tyre while Tyre tries to run away. The three cops take off after him for a short bit, before stopping the foot pursuit, and returning to their and Tyre's cars. They wash the pepper spray off their faces and call in a BOLO for Tyre.

Video 2 shows multiple cops hold Tyre down while a third kicks him repeatedly in the head, and a 4th gets out his baton and starts beating Tyre with it. The officer kicking Tyre apparently kicks him so hard that the cop starts to limp. After about a minute of this, Tyre tries to get up. Two cops hold his arms behind him while a third starts punching him in the head and face. Tyre falls to the ground, where he is pinned down by a third cop. Three more cops show up, two of whom start kicking the handcuffed, pinned Tyre within seconds of arriving. There are 7 cops with Tyre at this point. This is 4 and a half minutes into a 30 minute video. Tyre is pinned to the ground by three cops at this point, and is kicking his legs in obvious pain. One of the cops who showed up in the group of 3, the one that hadn't kicked him, moves to pin his legs to the ground. There are 4 cops holding Tyre on the ground. Tyre is handcuffed, writhing in pain, and the cops all get off of him and walk a little distance away. Two of the cops force Tyre to sit up, and then they drag him over to one of their unmarked patrol cars. This is six minutes into the video. They lean him against the car and they all walk away. Shortly after, paramedics show up and start to evaluate Tyre. Tyre falls onto his side, and the paramedics basically just stare at him. The rest of the video essentially consists of somewhere around 8 cops and 2 paramedics wandering around, intermittently interacting with Tyre, who is obviously in a great deal of pain, until 28 minutes into the video, at which point one of the EMTs brings over a gurney. At 30 minutes, Tyre is finally put on a back board, put on the gurney, and loaded into an ambulance.


Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: garbon on January 28, 2023, 03:11:40 AM
I think I'll skip watching the video as well as reading the transcript. -_-
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2023, 07:47:59 PM
Just reading the transcript is sickening.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on January 30, 2023, 09:32:13 PM
Has there been any kind of excuse made for the violence? Like "he was assisting arrest" or "he looked like a dangerous criminal we were looking for" or anything like that? Or even "he was insufficiently deferential, so we decided to punish him"?

What did those cops think they were doing? Or was it even in their minds nakedly pure "we're cops and feel like kicking the shit out of a random black man, so that's what we'll do"?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Habbaku on January 30, 2023, 10:45:29 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 30, 2023, 09:32:13 PMHas there been any kind of excuse made for the violence? Like "he was assisting arrest" or "he looked like a dangerous criminal we were looking for" or anything like that? Or even "he was insufficiently deferential, so we decided to punish him"?

What did those cops think they were doing? Or was it even in their minds nakedly pure "we're cops and feel like kicking the shit out of a random black man, so that's what we'll do"?

Haven't seen anything excusing it, so much as the insane right-wingers criticizing people "over-worried" about it in comparison to Ashli Babbit.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 31, 2023, 02:00:20 AM
Quote from: Jacob on January 30, 2023, 09:32:13 PMHas there been any kind of excuse made for the violence? Like "he was assisting arrest" or "he looked like a dangerous criminal we were looking for" or anything like that? Or even "he was insufficiently deferential, so we decided to punish him"?

What did those cops think they were doing? Or was it even in their minds nakedly pure "we're cops and feel like kicking the shit out of a random black man, so that's what we'll do"?
The initial press release was the same old passive voice bullshit. (Paraphrasing) The suspect resisted arrest, there was a confrontation where he was subdued, he suffered breathing problems and was promptly taken by an ambulance to a hospital where he unfortunately passed away.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 01, 2023, 02:54:01 AM
The initial statement
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/us/police-report-contradict-video-tyre-nichols/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: The Larch on February 01, 2023, 04:55:20 AM
This is reaching pantomime villain status.

QuoteCalifornia police kill double amputee who was fleeing: 'Scared for his life'

Anthony Lowe's family says they want to see Huntington Park police prosecuted: 'I'm heartbroken and filled with rage'


A southern California police department is facing national backlash after footage revealed that officers fatally shot a double amputee and wheelchair user who appeared to be hobbling away on the ground before he was killed.

Anthony Lowe, 36, was killed by officers in Huntington Park, a city in southern Los Angeles county, last Thursday. Cellphone footage captured part of the incident, showing Lowe on a sidewalk next to his wheelchair appearing to try to flee as two officers approach him with weapons drawn. More police cars arrived as the officers followed Lowe, who seemed to be limping away, but the video did not capture the shooting.

Now, Lowe's family is calling for officers to be terminated and face murder charges.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 01, 2023, 01:47:36 PM
Are the police going insane? These guys are making the dudes who beat Rodney King look like reasonable professionals lately.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on February 01, 2023, 01:55:34 PM
More details on the story:

https://time.com/6251814/anthony-lowe-jr-death-huntington-park-police/

QuoteEverything We Know About the Police Killing of Double-Amputee Anthony Lowe

The Jan. 26 police shooting of a 36-year-old, double amputee in southeastern Los Angeles is the latest killing of a Black man to set off protests over excessive and lethal violence by U.S. law enforcement.

Activists and the family of Anthony Lowe Jr. took to the Huntington Park Police Department headquarters on Monday to condemn the killing. "They murdered my son in a wheelchair—with no legs," Lowe's mother Dorothy said.

Last week, five police officers were charged with second-degree murder for beating 29-year-old Tyre Nichols in Memphis—leading to his death days after. Protests broke out across the U.S. following Nichols' death.

What is the police's account of the Lowe shooting?

In a Jan. 30 statement, the Huntington Park Police Department said its officers were responding to a stabbing on the afternoon of Jan. 26.

The stabbing victim described his attacker as a man in a wheelchair. The attacker allegedly "dismounted the wheelchair, ran to the victim without provocation, and stabbed him in the side of the chest" with a "12-inch butcher knife," before fleeing the scene in the wheelchair.

In the search for the assailant, they located the alleged suspect, later identified as Lowe, a few blocks away, holding a knife. Huntington police said its officers attempted to detain the man, but authorities said he ignored verbal orders and "threatened to advance or throw the knife at the officers." They also said they tasered the suspect twice.

"The suspect continued to threaten officers with the butcher knife, resulting in an officer-involved shooting," the statement read.

The L.A. Sheriff's Department said on Friday the suspect was shot in the "upper torso," and "was treated on scene by Los Angeles County Fire Department paramedics and pronounced dead."

What has happened to the police officers involved?

The police officers involved were placed on paid administrative leave per protocol, according to the Huntington police.

The Huntington Park Police Department, Homicide Bureau of the L.A. County Sheriff's Department, and the L.A. County District Attorney's Office are investigating the shooting.

What do we know about Lowe?

Yatoya Toy, Lowe's sister, told the Los Angeles Times that her brother's legs were amputated last year after an altercation with law enforcement in Texas. TIME could not verify the details of that incident.

Lowe had two teenage children, and he lived in South Los Angeles, according to the L.A. Times.

The mother of one of Lowe's children, Ebonique Simon, described him to CNN as a "loving, caring father." She also told CNN that Lowe was "dealing with a lot of depression" over the loss of his legs.

A spokesperson for the family told CBS News that Lowe was undergoing a mental health crisis when he was shot.

What has the reaction been so far?

A grainy video of the incident, which TIME could not independently verify, is circulating online, appearing to show Lowe, dismounted from his wheelchair, hobble away from two police officers as he carries what appears to be a large knife. A police car then blocks the view.

The L.A. Times reported Sunday that Lowe's sister identified him in the video. It also said that the L.A. County Sheriff's Department collected video from a nearby establishment, though it does not intend to release the footage.

Cliff Smith, an organizer with the Coalition for Community Control Over the Police, called on L.A. County District Attorney George Gascón to prosecute the officers involved. "We want specific justice," he said at the press conference outside local police headquarters Monday.

Lowe's mother Dorothy said, "This situation is worse than George Floyd. When these videos go out, it's going to be all bad."

The family has not commented on Lowe's alleged involvement in the stabbing incident.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on February 02, 2023, 08:37:37 AM
Suicide by cop?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2023, 07:57:37 AM
Mississipi: Police shooting 11 year old boy (https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/24/us/mississippi-police-shooting-11-year-old-boy/index.html)

Quote11-year-old Mississippi boy who was shot by responding police officer after calling 911 is released from the hospital


An 11-year-old Mississippi boy who was shot by a police officer after he called 911 for help is recovering after being released from the hospital, according to his family.

The family is calling for the officer to be fired and charged with the shooting.

Aderrien Murry was shot in the chest by an Indianola Police Department officer early Saturday morning while the officer was responding to a domestic disturbance call at the child's home, according to his mother, Nakala Murry, and the Mississippi Bureau of Investigation.

Murry told CNN that the father of another of her children arrived at her home at 4 a.m., "irate."

Concerned about her safety, Murry asked Aderrien to call the police.

Murry said the officer who arrived at the home "had his gun drawn at the front door and asked those inside the home to come outside." Murry said her son was shot coming around the corner of a hallway, into the living room.

"Once he came from around the corner, he got shot," Murry said. "I cannot grasp why. The same cop that told him to come out of the house. (Aderrien) did, and he got shot. He kept asking, 'Why did he shoot me? What did I do wrong?'" she said.

The shooting happened within what felt like "one to two minutes" after the officer asked those in the house to come outside, Murry said.

The boy was given a chest tube and placed on a ventilator at the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson after developing a collapsed lung, fractured ribs and a lacerated liver because of the shooting, his mother said. He was released from the hospital Wednesday. CNN has reached out to the hospital.

Two other children, including Murry's daughter and 2-year-old nephew, were also in the home at the time of the shooting, she said.

Body camera footage has not been released

Murry's family attorney Carlos Moore told CNN the incident was captured on police body camera.
The attorney said his request for the body camera footage was denied due to "an ongoing investigation."

The body camera video of the incident has not been released publicly.

Moore also said he was told there is video of the incident from a nearby gas station.

The Indianola Police Department confirmed that the officer involved in the shooting is named Greg Capers but did not provide any additional details on the shooting, telling CNN the police chief was unavailable.

CNN reached out to Capers for comment but did not immediately hear back.

On Monday evening, the Indianola Board of Aldermen voted to place Capers on paid administrative leave while the shooting is investigated, according to the family attorney.

In a statement over the weekend, the MBI said the agency is "currently assessing this critical incident and gathering evidence" and would turn over its findings to the state attorney general's office after the investigation is complete.

On Wednesday, MBI spokesperson Bailey Martin declined to answer additional questions, telling CNN in an email, "Due to this being an open and ongoing investigation, no further comment will be made."

CNN has contacted the District Attorney's Office for the Fourth Circuit Court and the Mississippi Attorney General's Office for comment.

Family angry police officer remains employed by department
Murry said that after her son was shot, she placed her hand on his wound to apply pressure as he "sang gospel songs and prayed while bleeding out." The officer, she said, tried to help render first aid and placed his hand on top of hers to try to stop Aderrien's bleeding.

When an ambulance arrived, medics were "very attentive," she said.

"Aderrien came within an inch of losing his life," Moore said. "It's not OK for a cop to do this and get away with this. The mother asked Aderrien to call the police on her daughter's father. He walked out of his room as directed by the police and he got shot."

Murry said police told her that her daughter's father was taken into custody later in the day on Saturday but eventually released because she had not filed a police report against him.

"When was I going to have time to do that? I was in the hospital with my son," she said, reacting to the news of the man's release from custody.

Four days after the shooting, Murry told CNN that "no one came to the hospital from the police station" nor had she spoken to any police investigators about the shooting.

"I'm just happy my son is alive," she said through tears.
Moore told CNN that he is furious that Capers remains employed by the Indianola Police Department.

"We believe that the city and the officer should be liable to Aderrien Murray, for the damages they have caused," the attorney said.

Moore said they will hold a sit-in protest at the Indianola City Hall on Thursday morning.

Indianola is a small, mostly African American town with 31% of the population below the poverty line. It lies in the Mississippi Delta, about 100 miles north of Jackson.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 19, 2023, 05:50:08 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/h1LGEL5.png)
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 18, 2023, 02:21:20 AM
https://www.mississippifreepress.org/35533/mistrial-declared-in-brookhaven-fedex-driver-shooting-trial-after-detective-withheld-evidence

QuoteMistrial Declared In Brookhaven FedEx Driver Shooting Trial After Detective Withheld Evidence[/size]

The judge hearing a case involving two white men accused of shooting at a Black FedEx delivery driver has ended in a mistrial in Lincoln County, Miss., after a Brookhaven Police officer withheld evidence from the prosecution and defense.

The defendants, Gregory Case and his son Brandon Case, were charged with attempted first-degree murder, conspiracy and shooting into the vehicle of D'Monterrio Gibson. Their accuser told the Mississippi Free Press in February 2022 that two men confronted him as he was delivering packages in their Lincoln County neighborhood in January 2022, chasing him down and leaving bullet holes in his delivery van. The men were not indicted until November 2022.

The Associated Press reported this morning that Mississippi Circuit Court Judge David Strong cited errors by Brookhaven Police Department Detective Vincent Fernando as he declared the mistrial this morning. Those errors included failing to give prosecutors and defense attorneys a videotaped statement the police had taken from Gibson and improperly testifying about finding guns in the home of one of the defendants and shell casings outside.

The defense requested the mistrial and Strong said he "had no other choice," The Daily Leader reported this morning. The trial began on Aug. 15, almost a year and eight months after the incident occurred.

Gibson's attorney, Carlos Moore, has repeatedly accused the Brookhaven Police Department of delaying investigating the shooting and of "shoddy" work. He is now asking the U.S. Department of Justice to step in.

"As the attorney representing D'Monterrio Gibson, I share the deep disappointment and frustration expressed by Circuit Judge David Strong over this development," the attorney said in a statement to the Mississippi Free Press this morning. "A mistrial represents not just an administrative setback but also a delay in justice for Mr. Gibson and his family. It is concerning that BPD withheld a potentially crucial piece of evidence, and I concur with District Attorney Dee Bates, the withheld evidence necessitated a mistrial. We believe that this is not an isolated incident but a part of a larger pattern of obstruction by the BPD."

Moore said he has "recently communicated with one of the leaders of the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division" and that the Justice Department is "actively monitoring the developments in this state prosecution as it deliberates on whether there will be a federal hate crime prosecution against the Cases."

"I have also requested the DOJ to investigate the Brookhaven Police Department's conduct in this matter for potential obstruction of justice. It is paramount that every law enforcement agency upholds the highest standards of integrity and transparency, especially when the pursuit of justice for a victim is at stake," Moore continued. "We remain committed to seeking justice for D'Monterrio Gibson and ensuring that the legal process is fair, transparent, and accountable. We are hopeful that the Department of Justice's involvement will help shed light on this serious matter and ensure that justice is served."

WJTV reported that Bates told reporters a new trial will be scheduled, but he did not know if it will happen before he retires at the end of the year.

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on August 18, 2023, 03:56:33 AM
https://kansasreflector.com/2023/08/11/police-stage-chilling-raid-on-marion-county-newspaper-seizing-computers-records-and-cellphones/

QuotePolice stage 'chilling' raid on Marion County newspaper, seizing computers, records and cellphones

MARION — In an unprecedented raid Friday, local law enforcement seized computers, cellphones and reporting materials from the Marion County Record office, the newspaper's reporters, and the publisher's home.

Eric Meyer, owner and publisher of the newspaper, said police were motivated by a confidential source who leaked sensitive documents to the newspaper, and the message was clear: "Mind your own business or we're going to step on you."

The city's entire five-officer police force and two sheriff's deputies took "everything we have," Meyer said, and it wasn't clear how the newspaper staff would take the weekly publication to press Tuesday night.

The raid followed news stories about a restaurant owner who kicked reporters out of a meeting last week with U.S. Rep. Jake LaTurner, and revelations about the restaurant owner's lack of a driver's license and conviction for drunken driving.

Meyer said he had never heard of police raiding a newspaper office during his 20 years at the Milwaukee Journal or 26 years teaching journalism at the University of Illinois.

"It's going to have a chilling effect on us even tackling issues," Meyer said, as well as "a chilling effect on people giving us information."

The search warrant, signed by Marion County District Court Magistrate Judge Laura Viar, appears to violate federal law that provides protections against searching and seizing materials from journalists. The law requires law enforcement to subpoena materials instead. Viar didn't respond to a request to comment for this story or explain why she would authorize a potentially illegal raid.

Emily Bradbury, executive director of the Kansas Press Association, said the police raid is unprecedented in Kansas.

"An attack on a newspaper office through an illegal search is not just an infringement on the rights of journalists but an assault on the very foundation of democracy and the public's right to know," Bradbury said. "This cannot be allowed to stand."

Meyer reported last week that Marion restaurant owner Kari Newell had kicked newspaper staff out of a public forum with LaTurner, whose staff was apologetic. Newell responded to Meyer's reporting with hostile comments on her personal Facebook page.

A confidential source contacted the newspaper, Meyer said, and provided evidence that Newell had been convicted of drunken driving and continued to use her vehicle without a driver's license. The criminal record could jeopardize her efforts to obtain a liquor license for her catering business.

A reporter with the Marion Record used a state website to verify the information provided by the source. But Meyer suspected the source was relaying information from Newell's husband, who had filed for divorce. Meyer decided not to publish a story about the information, and he alerted police to the situation.

"We thought we were being set up," Meyer said.

Police notified Newell, who then complained at a city council meeting that the newspaper had illegally obtained and disseminated sensitive documents, which isn't true. Her public comments prompted the newspaper to set the record straight in a story published Thursday.

Sometime before 11 a.m. Friday, officers showed up simultaneously at Meyer's home and the newspaper office. They presented a search warrant that alleges identity theft and unlawful use of a computer.

The search warrant identifies two pages worth of items that law enforcement officers were allowed to seize, including computer software and hardware, digital communications, cellular networks, servers and hard drives, items with passwords, utility records, and all documents and records pertaining to Newell. The warrant specifically targeted ownership of computers capable of being used to "participate in the identity theft of Kari Newell."

Officers injured a reporter's finger by grabbing her cellphone out of her hand, Meyer said. Officers at his home took photos of his bank account information.

He said officers told him the computers, cellphones and other devices would be sent to a lab.

"I don't know when they'll get it back to us," Meyer said. "They won't tell us."

The seized computers, server and backup hard drive include advertisements and legal notices that were supposed to appear in the next edition of the newspaper.

"I don't know what we're going to do," he said. "We will publish something."

Newell, writing Friday under a changed name on her personal Facebook account, said she "foolishly" received a DUI in 2008 and "knowingly operated a vehicle without a license out of necessity."

"Journalists have become the dirty politicians of today, twisting narrative for bias agendas, full of muddied half-truths," Newell wrote. "We rarely get facts that aren't baited with misleading insinuations."

She said the "entire debacle was brought forth in an attempt to smear my name, jeopardize my licensing through ABC (state Alcoholic Beverage Control Division), harm my business, seek retaliation, and for personal leverage in an ongoing domestic court battle."

At the law enforcement center in Marion, a staff member said only Police Chief Gideon Cody could answer questions for this story, and that Cody had gone home for the day and could not be reached by phone. The office of Attorney General Kris Kobach wasn't available to comment on the legal controversy in Marion, which is north of Wichita in central Kansas.

Melissa Underwood, communications director of the Kansas Bureau of Investigation, replied by email to a question about whether the KBI was involved in the case.

"At the request of the Marion Police Department, on Tuesday, Aug. 8, we began an investigation into allegations of criminal wrongdoing in Marion, Kansas. The investigation is ongoing," Underwood said.

Meyer, whose father worked at the newspaper from 1948 until he retired, bought the Marion County Record in 1998, preventing a sale to a corporate newspaper chain.

As a journalism professor in Illinois, Meyer said, he had graduate students from Egypt who talked about how people would come into the newspaper office and seize everything so they couldn't publish. Those students presented a scholarly paper at a conference in Toronto about what it has done to journalism there.

"That's basically what they're trying to do here," Meyer said. "The intervention is just like that repressive government of Egypt. I didn't think it could happen in America."


(https://kansasreflector.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/SearchWarrant2.jpg)
Full size: https://kansasreflector.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/SearchWarrant2.jpg
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 20, 2023, 11:41:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjFP_Qa71ZE

Search warrant for newspaper lists falsely obtaining Newell's driving record.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Sheilbh on October 25, 2023, 02:58:42 PM
Not normal police violence - but disgraceful story. It's extraordinary:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bettersten-wade-dexter-jackson-mississippi-police-missing-rcna121697
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Syt on October 25, 2023, 04:10:03 PM
LegalEagle made a video about the Marion County case mentioned above:

Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Grey Fox on October 25, 2023, 09:11:57 PM
Lewiston, Maine is in the middle of a mass shooting event. 16 dead and 50 injured so far.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/lewiston-maine-shootings-active-shooter-10-25-23/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 25, 2023, 11:07:40 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 25, 2023, 09:11:57 PMLewiston, Maine is in the middle of a mass shooting event. 16 dead and 50 injured so far.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/lewiston-maine-shootings-active-shooter-10-25-23/index.html
Up to 22 now. :(

Manhunt still underway.
https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/lewiston-maine-shootings-active-shooter-10-25-23/index.html
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on February 15, 2024, 08:05:49 AM
1 killed 21 injured at Kansas City celebration
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on February 15, 2024, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 15, 2024, 08:05:49 AM1 killed 21 injured at Kansas City celebration

Has a motive been established?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: crazy canuck on February 15, 2024, 11:08:41 AM
Not that has been reported
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: grumbler on February 15, 2024, 11:24:56 AM
Quote from: Jacob on February 15, 2024, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 15, 2024, 08:05:49 AM1 killed 21 injured at Kansas City celebration

Has a motive been established?

I'm betting that it is linked to the unhinged right-wing conspiracy theories about the Chiefs and the Super Bowl.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on February 15, 2024, 06:00:40 PM
Looks like a dispute between some guys.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on February 15, 2024, 06:52:24 PM
Have bodycams become so effective at preventing questionable police shootings that we now have to pad this thread with the standard mass shootings?
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 18, 2024, 08:11:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 15, 2024, 06:52:24 PMHave bodycams become so effective at preventing questionable police shootings that we now have to pad this thread with the standard mass shootings?

Here you go

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/16/florida-acorn-cop-shooting

QuoteA Florida sheriff's deputy mistook the sound of an acorn hitting his patrol cruiser for a gunshot and fired multiple times at the SUV where a handcuffed Black man was sitting in the backseat, officials said.

The man, who was being questioned about stealing his girlfriend's car, was not injured during the 12 November shooting. He was taken into custody but released without being charged. The officer who initiated the shooting resigned.

The Okaloosa county sheriff's office released the body-camera video and an internal affairs report this week, addressing the acorn for the first time.

Investigators viewing the video from deputy Jesse Hernandez's body camera saw an acorn falling just before shots were fired, an internal affairs report by the sheriff's office concluded. The acorn bounced off the patrol vehicle's roof.

That morning, Hernandez, a sergeant and another deputy had responded to a call from a woman who said her boyfriend had stolen her car and was sending her threatening messages. The woman told deputies that the man had a weapon, the report said.

Police detained the boyfriend and searched his car after handcuffing him and placing him the back of Hernandez's patrol car.

That's where he was when the acorn hit the vehicle.

As Hernandez approached the passenger side door of his patrol car, he heard a popping sound which he later told investigators he perceived to be a gunshot. And he said he believed he had been hit.

"He began yelling 'shots fired' multiple times, falling to the ground and rolling," the sheriff's report said. "He fired into the patrol car."

Sgt Beth Roberts heard the gunfire and Hernandez's screams – and began firing into the car as well, the report said.

While the county's state attorney's office found no probable cause for criminal charges, the sheriff's internal affairs investigation determined Hernandez's use of force was "not objectively reasonable". Hernandez resigned on 4 December, the sheriff's office said.


Roberts' use of deadly force was found to be reasonable, and she was exonerated, the report found.

The Okaloosa sheriff, Eric Aden, said he realizes the situation was "traumatic" for the suspect, and his office has incorporated the shooting into training for other deputies.

He also said he did not believe that Hernandez acted with malice.

"Though his actions were ultimately not warranted, we do believe he felt his life was in immediate peril and his response was based off the totality of circumstances surrounding this fear," Aden said.

Reviews of the case by the sheriff's criminal investigations division and the county's state attorney's office found no probable cause for criminal charges for Hernandez, who started with the agency in January 2022.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2024, 09:32:31 PM
Yeah that is a crazy story. He does some kind of ninja roll and then just unloads his fire arm in the general direction of...the acorn I guess. And then his partner who was talking to somebody some distance away just comes running in and unloads her entire fire arm at...nothing in particular. Just in the general direction. And the police consider this a "reasonable" response. And they wonder why people fear them.

All you have to do to justify firing your weapon in a neighborhood is feeling unsafe? Hell everybody who sees either of those officers in their neighborhood should be justified in unleashing their entire arsenal in random directions by that standard.

It is a damn miracle nobody was injured. And both of them should have been fired and should never do police work again. But she will stay in her current role and while Hernandez has resigned, be sure he will be back on the street with a different police force soon enough.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Tonitrus on February 18, 2024, 09:34:23 PM
My impression is they didn't shoot at "nothing" but at his own police cruiser...initially he, and then both, thinking their detained suspect inside had somehow kept a gun hidden.

Nevertheless, it still looks, and is, rather ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Jacob on February 18, 2024, 09:40:25 PM
It displays the fundamental cowardice that underpins the American approach to policing.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2024, 09:53:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 18, 2024, 09:40:25 PMIt displays the fundamental cowardice that underpins the American approach to policing.

I am not saying police officers do not get killed or injured in the line of duty. They do and their sacrifice should be honored.

But I do feel like their example gets played up in the mind of the police like they are an occupying military force and the citizens are all out to get them. But the statistics only have police offices as the 19th most dangerous job in the country behind jobs like truck drivers and most manual laborers. It is just not the case that the common citizens, or even the criminal population, are out to get police officers. Covid is by far the biggest killer of cops this decade (and of course the Police Unions have fought hard to protect their members from having to get vaccinated...)

But yet, there does seem to be an enormous amount of paranoia and those people who are supposed to keep the public safe by reviewing police actions seem to act with the expectation that being shot at is something cops just should expect to encounter. Bear in mind something like only 25% of cops will ever draw their weapon even once in their entire career.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: Razgovory on February 18, 2024, 10:31:01 PM
I did not know that Covid was the leading cause of death of police in 2022.  Death by Fox News.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: HVC on February 18, 2024, 10:37:17 PM
I'm assuming he's retired armed forces and PTSD trigger got him spooked. Could also just be a very bad cop.
Title: Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
Post by: DGuller on February 18, 2024, 11:14:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2024, 09:53:27 PMBut the statistics only have police offices as the 19th most dangerous job in the country behind jobs like truck drivers and most manual laborers. It is just not the case that the common citizens, or even the criminal population, are out to get police officers.
To be fair, these kinds of arguments are quite flawed.  It's like saying that no airplane has been hijacked in over 20 years, therefore airport security and cockpits doors are a massive over-reaction.  Sometimes the danger you're protecting against appears overblown precisely because you're very good at protecting against said danger.

Maybe being a police officer isn't more dangerous than it is precisely because they shoot first, and call in an artillery barrage, and ask questions later.  If they allowed the perps to get off the first shot, maybe it would be a considerably more dangerous job than it is.