Absolute scum.
Also, lots of famous people could get taken down by this.
https://www.apnews.com/f995d90cbfd943169f74a0dbb3b1eadc
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6184561-Jeffrey-Epstein-indictment.html
Quote
NEW YORK (AP) — In a startling reversal of fortune, billionaire financier Jeffrey Epstein was charged Monday with sexually abusing dozens of underage girls in a case brought more than a decade after he secretly cut a deal with federal prosecutors to dispose of nearly identical allegations.
The 66-year-old hedge fund manager who once socialized with some of the world's most powerful people was charged in a newly unsealed federal indictment with sex trafficking and conspiracy during the early 2000s. He could get up to 45 years in prison if convicted.
The case sets the stage for another #MeToo-era trial fraught with questions of wealth and influence. Epstein's powerful friends over the years have included President Donald Trump, former President Bill Clinton and Britain's Prince Andrew.
Prosecutors said the evidence against Epstein included a "vast trove" of hundreds or even thousands of lewd photographs of young women or girls, discovered in a weekend search of his New York City mansion. Authorities also found papers and phone records corroborating the alleged crimes, and a massage room still set up the way accusers said it appeared, prosecutors said.
Epstein, who was arrested Saturday as he arrived in the U.S. from Paris aboard his private jet, was brought into court Monday in a blue jail uniform, his hair disheveled, and pleaded not guilty. He was jailed for a bail hearing next Monday, when prosecutors plan to argue that the rich world traveler might flee if released.
His lawyers argued that the sex-crime allegations had been settled in 2008 with a plea agreement in Florida that was overseen by Alexander Acosta, who was the U.S. attorney in Miami at the time and is now Trump's labor secretary.
"This is ancient stuff," Epstein attorney Reid Weingarten said in court, calling the case essentially a "redo" by the government.
But U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Berman of New York said that the non-prosecution agreement that spared Epstein from a heavy prison sentence a decade ago is binding only on federal prosecutors in Florida, not on authorities in New York.
The alleged victims "deserve their day in court," Berman said. "We are proud to be standing up for them by bringing this indictment."
Epstein was accused in the indictment of paying underage girls hundreds of dollars in cash for massages and then molesting them at his homes in Palm Beach, Florida, and New York from 2002 through 2005.
He "intentionally sought out minors and knew that many of his victims were in fact under the age of 18," prosecutors said. He also paid some of his victims to recruit additional girls, creating "a vast network of underage victims for him to sexually exploit," prosecutors said.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Alex Rossmiller said that while there is some overlap between the Florida and New York cases, one of the counts is based entirely on New York victims.
Federal authorities said new accusers have come forward since Epstein's arrest, and they urged other possible victims to contact the FBI.
Some of Epstein's accusers welcomed the indictment.
"The news of my abuser's arrest today is a step in the right direction to finally hold Epstein accountable for his crimes and restore my faith that power and money can't triumph over justice," Sarah Ransome said through her lawyer.
Prosecutors in New York are seeking the forfeiture of Epstein's mansion, a seven-story, 21,000-square-foot townhouse less than a block from Central Park. The home, formerly a prep school, is across the street from a home owned by Bill Cosby and has been valued at approximately $77 million.
Epstein's arrest came amid increased #MeToo-era scrutiny of the 2008 non-prosecution agreement, which caused a furor in recent years as the details came to light, many of them exposed in a series of stories by The Miami Herald.
Under the deal, Epstein was allowed to plead guilty to state charges of soliciting a minor for prostitution. He avoided a possible life sentence and served 13 months in jail, during which he was allowed out to go to his office during the day. The deal also required that he reach financial settlements with dozens of his alleged victims and register as a sex offender.
"The last couple of years have helped build this environment where the public isn't willing to see these cases swept under the rug anymore," said Scott Berkowitz, president of RAINN, the anti-sexual violence organization.
"I also think there was such outrage over the sentence that he got and what seemed like a very special deal that he got the first time. So I think similar to the first attempt to prosecute Cosby, I think there was a lot of public outrage at justice not being done. And so that helped lead the drive."
Acosta has defended the agreement as appropriate, though the White House said in February that it was looking into his handling of the case.
The new charges were brought by the public corruption unit within the U.S. attorney's office in New York, which normally handles cases against politicians. Berman would not say why that was done. Attorney General William Barr declined to comment on Epstein's case, saying he has recused himself from the matter.
Former federal prosecutor David Weinstein agreed that the non-prosecution deal applies only to federal prosecutors in the Florida, not those in New York.
Authorities in Florida have said at least 40 underage girls were brought into Epstein's Palm Beach mansion for sexual purposes after being recruited around the world.
Some of the alleged victims have accused Prince Andrew and former Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz of taking part in Epstein's sex ring. Buckingham Palace has vehemently denied any involvement by Andrew, and Dershowitz has accused the victims of lying about him.
The non-prosecution agreement is being challenged in court in Florida. A federal judge ruled earlier this year that Epstein's victims should have been consulted under the law about the agreement, and he is now weighing whether to throw it out.
Federal prosecutors recently filed court papers in the Florida case contending the deal must stand. "The past cannot be undone; the government committed itself to the NPA, and the parties have not disputed that Epstein complied with its provisions," prosecutors wrote.
Prosecutors said they would oppose Epstein's release on bail. The defendant owns airplanes as well as homes in Paris and on a Caribbean island.
"He has enormous wealth. The charges are very serious and carry with them a maximum sentence of 45 years, which to someone of Epstein's age is basically a life sentence," Berman said, "so we think he has every incentive to try and flee the jurisdiction."
___
This story has been corrected to show that the maximum penalty is 45 years in prison.
___
Associated Press writers Ali Swenson and Jocelyn Noveck in New York, Curt Anderson in Miami and Michael Balsamo in Edgefield, South Carolina contributed to this report.
I remember this from a few years ago, or more. He was given a slap on the wrist by Florida, allowed to serve his time in a separate part of a jail or something. Pretty much go there for the day and home at night most days, that kind of thing. This is going to be ugly I think because some big names are allegedly going to come out.
Quote from: KRonn on July 08, 2019, 07:19:05 PM
I remember this from a few years ago, or more. He was given a slap on the wrist by Florida, allowed to serve his time in a separate part of a jail or something. Pretty much go there for the day and home at night most days, that kind of thing. This is going to be ugly I think because some big names are allegedly going to come out.
Trump and Bill Clinton are the big names that come to mind first.
Apparently the Feds have thousands of CDs labeled [victim's name] & [perpetrator's name].
Quote from: KRonn on July 08, 2019, 07:19:05 PM
This is going to be ugly I think because some big names are allegedly going to come out.
For instance, Prince Andrew and Alan Dershowitz.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2019, 07:47:19 PM
Quote from: KRonn on July 08, 2019, 07:19:05 PM
I remember this from a few years ago, or more. He was given a slap on the wrist by Florida, allowed to serve his time in a separate part of a jail or something. Pretty much go there for the day and home at night most days, that kind of thing. This is going to be ugly I think because some big names are allegedly going to come out.
Trump and Bill Clinton are the big names that come to mind first.
Apparently the Feds have thousands of CDs labeled [victim's name] & [perpetrator's name].
I don't think Trump will be implicated in this. He just commented on Epstein before any of this stuff came out, then kicked him out of his Mara Lago club when Epstein had some issues with a woman. That's the story I've heard.
What the fuck is wrong with people? Stop having sex with kids. You would think this wouldn't be hard.
Monstrous.
Also, Valmy, this guy has so much money he can do whatever he wants and probably gets bored with that, and so doing something seriously illegal like that probably has some appeal from a thrill seeking standpoint. Not to at all excuse or condone him, but maybe that explains why he'd engage in such incredibly self-destructive behavior.
What shocks me more are the associates. Those who have sex with children are sick people with perverted psychology, but those who are employed to keep the conveyor going are stone cold sociopaths.
The lawyers who enable that also strike me as sociopaths. I know the theory that everyone is entitled to a vigorous legal defense, but I have a hard time with that when it comes to cases such as these, or mafia lawyering. You can't not know that your hardball vigorous defense of the ultra powerful is going to result in monsters being unleashed on more innocent victims.
Quote from: KRonn on July 08, 2019, 08:28:33 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2019, 07:47:19 PM
Quote from: KRonn on July 08, 2019, 07:19:05 PM
I remember this from a few years ago, or more. He was given a slap on the wrist by Florida, allowed to serve his time in a separate part of a jail or something. Pretty much go there for the day and home at night most days, that kind of thing. This is going to be ugly I think because some big names are allegedly going to come out.
Trump and Bill Clinton are the big names that come to mind first.
Apparently the Feds have thousands of CDs labeled [victim's name] & [perpetrator's name].
I don't think Trump will be implicated in this. He just commented on Epstein before any of this stuff came out, then kicked him out of his Mara Lago club when Epstein had some issues with a woman. That's the story I've heard.
Quote"I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy," Trump told New York Magazine that year for a story headlined "Jeffrey Epstein: International Moneyman of Mystery." "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-called-epstein-a-terrific-guy-before-denying-relationship-with-him/2019/07/08/a01e0f00-a1be-11e9-bd56-eac6bb02d01d_story.html?utm_term=.9afd32bb5fd2
The way the prosecutor in Florida (now Secretary of Labor handled this is pretty iffy.)
QuoteProsecutors in New York are seeking the forfeiture of Epstein's mansion, a seven-story, 21,000-square-foot townhouse less than a block from Central Park. The home, formerly a prep school, is across the street from a home owned by Bill Cosby and has been valued at approximately $77 million.
Some funky feng shui in that neighborhood.
I wonder why the public corruption unit is handling this. Are they suspecting that the plea deal was too generous to be legit? I would think that there has to be some abuse of power for that unit to be involved, it's not enough to just have some politicians guest starring in some of the productions.
I figure they're hoping to get Acosta on accepting a bribe.
:hmm:
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1148421794157780995
Quote from: George Conway"In 2000, a porter who worked next door to Epstein's Manhattan home told a British newspaper, admiringly, 'I often see Donald Trump and there are loads of models coming and going, mostly at night. It's amazing.'"
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 09, 2019, 05:14:53 AM
:hmm:
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1148421794157780995
Quote from: George Conway"In 2000, a porter who worked next door to Epstein's Manhattan home told a British newspaper, admiringly, 'I often see Donald Trump and there are loads of models coming and going, mostly at night. It's amazing.'"
Nobody will care, mate.
I'm sure he had legal aged hookers as well. I mean Trumps a creep, but I don't think he's a pedo. none of his wives seemed overly young, I don't think.
@Cal Plenty of poor pedophiles too
Quote from: HVC on July 09, 2019, 07:01:25 AM
I'm sure he had legal aged hookers as well. I mean Trumps a creep, but I don't think he's a pedo. none of his wives seemed overly young, I don't think.
@Cal Plenty of poor pedophiles too
Many pedophiles don't marry their victims.
Trump won't be affected, but not because he's not guilty.
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2019, 08:48:19 PM
What the fuck is wrong with people? Stop having sex with kids. You would think this wouldn't be hard.
Saw a twitter theory that pimping underage girls is how Epstein actually made all his real money instead of hedge fund services.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1148303671857491968.html
Had you all heard of this guy? I hadn't.
I first thought this was Theo Epstein...which would make a lot of sense. If he isn't running his own scheme, I'm sure he is a client of this guy.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Had you all heard of this guy? I hadn't.
I first thought this was Theo Epstein...which would make a lot of sense. If he isn't running his own scheme, I'm sure he is a client of this guy.
I thought of Juan Epstein.
I thought of Epstein's theory of age relativity.
I'll stick with Jean Epstein at the Cinémathèque.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Had you all heard of this guy? I hadn't.
Nah. I am not familiar with the big financiers. I hadn't even heard of Bernie Madoff before it was discovered he was a crook.
There is that one guy....John Paulsen I think? Who is supposed to be this big deal. But I know nothing beyond him.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Had you all heard of this guy? I hadn't.
I think I recall hearing about the guy when he was initially charged/not charged back in 2008, but the story was only in the news for about 5 minutes before something else came up.
Would anybody weep if both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump get taken down by this? Is this the scandal that unites the country?
Quote from: frunk on July 09, 2019, 01:27:13 PM
Would anybody weep if both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump get taken down by this? Is this the scandal that unites the country?
A scandal that takes them both down might be the only way Syt's family might support Trump being impeached :hmm:
Quote from: frunk on July 09, 2019, 01:27:13 PM
Would anybody weep if both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump get taken down by this? Is this the scandal that unites the country?
I wonder what would happen if a pic or video surfaced of those two double-teaming a child was found in Epstein's possession. I assume Trump supporters would just claim it was a fake.
Quote from: Malthus on July 09, 2019, 01:34:24 PM
Quote from: frunk on July 09, 2019, 01:27:13 PM
Would anybody weep if both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump get taken down by this? Is this the scandal that unites the country?
I wonder what would happen if a pic or video surfaced of those two double-teaming a child was found in Epstein's possession. I assume Trump supporters would just claim it was a fake.
Well the problem is that even if such video existed, it could never be distributed (as it would constitute child porn), so Trump could easily claim that no such video exists.
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 12:32:13 PM
I hadn't even heard of Bernie Madoff before it was discovered he was a crook.
I had. :ph34r:
Quote from: Barrister on July 09, 2019, 01:36:08 PM
Well the problem is that even if such video existed, it could never be distributed (as it would constitute child porn), so Trump could easily claim that no such video exists.
Presumably it would be distributed to the relevant prosecutor ... otherwise, how are such charges ever made?
Quote from: Barrister on July 09, 2019, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 09, 2019, 01:34:24 PM
Quote from: frunk on July 09, 2019, 01:27:13 PM
Would anybody weep if both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump get taken down by this? Is this the scandal that unites the country?
I wonder what would happen if a pic or video surfaced of those two double-teaming a child was found in Epstein's possession. I assume Trump supporters would just claim it was a fake.
Well the problem is that even if such video existed, it could never be distributed (as it would constitute child porn), so Trump could easily claim that no such video exists.
Huh. Well isn't raping a child a crime? Couldn't it be used in a criminal trial? If not how are child porn cases prosecuted if no evidence can be submitted?
[deleted]
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
Well,
you can't, but perhaps your President can. ;)
There seems no limit to the tolerance of the Republicans, and large parts of the public, for presidential wrongdoing. What's one child rape more or less?
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
Well apparently obstruction of justice is...
Quote from: Malthus on July 09, 2019, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
Well, you can't, but perhaps your President can. ;)
There seems no limit to the tolerance of the Republicans, and large parts of the public, for presidential wrongdoing. What's one child rape more or less?
Trump himself did say he could shoot someone on New York's Fifth Avenue and his fans would still love him...
could the release it with offending parts blurred? or is that still child porn?
QuoteAnd yet if you talk to Donald Trump, a different Epstein emerges. "I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy," Trump booms from a speakerphone. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it – Jeffrey enjoys his social life."
NY Mag article c. 2002
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 12:32:13 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Had you all heard of this guy? I hadn't.
Nah. I am not familiar with the big financiers. I hadn't even heard of Bernie Madoff before it was discovered he was a crook.
That's the question - is he in fact a big financier? There is no evidence that he is other than that he clearly used to manage money for one guy - Les Wexner, the founder of Victoria's Secret and other companies.
His financial management company has never disclosed any sizable investments in anything. No one seems to know of or interact with his companies. The three hard facts that are known about him are that he left Bear Stearns under suspicious circumstances in the early 80s, he had a close business association with a notorious Ponzi schemer in the late 80s, and formed a close relationship with Wexner in the 90s.
Possible sources of his wealth are some combination of:
1) Numbers of billionaire mystery clients who pay flat fees for wealth management (his claim, dubious)
2) Whatever he managed to milk out of Wexner during the dozen or so years of their close association.
3) Financial fraud/Ponzi scheme
4) Blackmail/extortion
Good grief, is there any type of scandal that won't engulf this president? And yet his approval rating remains in the 40s...
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2019, 02:57:16 PM
Good grief, is there any type of scandal that won't engulf this president? And yet his approval rating remains in the 40s...
Economy is booming, man.
Quote from: ulmont on July 09, 2019, 09:11:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2019, 08:48:19 PM
What the fuck is wrong with people? Stop having sex with kids. You would think this wouldn't be hard.
Saw a twitter theory that pimping underage girls is how Epstein actually made all his real money instead of hedge fund services.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1148303671857491968.html
Highly speculative but does fit much of the very limited evidence.
Making millions (billions?) of underage pimping? you think that at some point word would get out and people would stop getting caught to be blackmailed. Unless he got some big fish early on
Quote from: HVC on July 09, 2019, 03:03:39 PM
Making millions (billions?) of underage pimping? you think that at some point word would get out and people would stop getting caught to be blackmailed. Unless he got some big fish early on
Actually it is brilliant...it isn't like that is the type of word that will spread.
"Hey want to hook up with a 12 year old? I can make it happen for 10 grand."
"That will be $50 million. If you don't like it, I've got a tape that the police may be interested in."
If you have that cash, do you have a choice? You pay it and never breathe a word of it to anyone, ever.
Quote from: HVC on July 09, 2019, 03:03:39 PM
Making millions (billions?) of underage pimping? you think that at some point word would get out and people would stop getting caught to be blackmailed. Unless he got some big fish early on
Let's say he got 2 guys to put in 1.25 billion each. At 2% for management fees that is $50 million a year.
Run it forward 20 years that is $1 billion in fees.
Capital is preserved, the 2 guys keep their wealth and reps intact, and JE can pose as a secretive, elite "financier"
One guy at $2.5 billion would do it as well.
Note that Wexner's Forbes profile has shown him at $4.5 - 7.5 billion over the years.
NOT suggesting Wexner is blackmail victim; he could have been just charmed by the guy
Quote from: alfred russel on July 09, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 09, 2019, 03:03:39 PM
Making millions (billions?) of underage pimping? you think that at some point word would get out and people would stop getting caught to be blackmailed. Unless he got some big fish early on
Actually it is brilliant...it isn't like that is the type of word that will spread.
"Hey want to hook up with a 12 year old? I can make it happen for 10 grand."
"That will be $50 million. If you don't like it, I've got a tape that the police may be interested in."
If you have that cash, do you have a choice? You pay it and never breathe a word of it to anyone, ever.
It doesn't have to be as sinister as that even.
You can invest your money with any number of people - but only JE allows you to bang a bunch of underaged girls if you invest your money with him. Then sure, at some point, you realize JE probably has some compromising material on you, but you're still making money and still banging those underaged girls, so why rock the boat?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 09, 2019, 02:40:39 PM
QuoteAnd yet if you talk to Donald Trump, a different Epstein emerges. "I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy," Trump booms from a speakerphone. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it – Jeffrey enjoys his social life."
NY Mag article c. 2002
Already posted that, man. I can already hear the conspiratorial conservatives saying "Why is this happening now?" And for once, that is an actually good question. SDNY gained access to a lot of evidence last year in connection to the Micheal Cohen and the National Enquirer thing. What other rich men were playing "catch and kill" with the National Enquirer? Why does Donald Trump appear to know about these girls on the "younger side"?
Miami Herald ran a big investigative piece on Epstein last year. The Second Circuit court of appeals last week unsealed records in a related civil case. There is another ongoing case from victims in the Miami criminal case that has had a lot of action this year. So lots of reasons for there to be focus on him now.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 09, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Let's say he got 2 guys to put in 1.25 billion each. At 2% for management fees that is $50 million a year.
Run it forward 20 years that is $1 billion in fees.
Capital is preserved, the 2 guys keep their wealth and reps intact, and JE can pose as a secretive, elite "financier"
Are you saying two billionaires paid 50 mill a year to bang underage chicks?
I'm saying its possible that two billionaires might chose to park their money and pay standard industry management fees with Epstein's "fund" in order to avoid exposure with whatever he might hypothetically have been blackmailing them with.
Keeping in mind that anyone with over $1 billion to invest that uses some active manager is going to paying tens of millions per year in fees no matter what. The question is not whether its paid but who it is paid to.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 09, 2019, 06:55:22 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 09, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Let's say he got 2 guys to put in 1.25 billion each. At 2% for management fees that is $50 million a year.
Run it forward 20 years that is $1 billion in fees.
Capital is preserved, the 2 guys keep their wealth and reps intact, and JE can pose as a secretive, elite "financier"
Are you saying two billionaires paid 50 mill a year to bang underage chicks?
What's the going price, does anyone know?
Your immortal soul.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 09, 2019, 07:52:32 PM
I'm saying its possible that two billionaires might chose to park their money and pay standard industry management fees with Epstein's "fund" in order to avoid exposure with whatever he might hypothetically have been blackmailing them with.
Keeping in mind that anyone with over $1 billion to invest that uses some active manager is going to paying tens of millions per year in fees no matter what. The question is not whether its paid but who it is paid to.
I don't know if this is true, but it was noted in another thread I read that were only 13 American billionaires in 1982 when he started his "only billionaires" can apply hedge fund, so he must have a had specific customer in mind when he started the business.
If that number is right, we can probably narrow down who it was through just pure speculation
It is a fact that he was doing much smaller deals in the 1980s. Willing to bet dollars to donuts that there is no quote from him about only taking $1 billion accounts until after he landed Wexner (i.e. sometime on or after 1989)
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 09, 2019, 08:11:19 PM
It is a fact that he was doing much smaller deals in the 1980s. Willing to bet dollars to donuts that there is no quote from him about only taking $1 billion accounts until after he landed Wexner (i.e. sometime on or after 1989)
Not a direct quote from him, but from people who knew him at the time
https://twitter.com/eisingerj/status/1148406871365246976
QuoteMore
I had not realized until today how nothing about Jeffrey Epstein's business or career makes any sense. For instance, there were only 13 billionaires in the US in 1982
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-_19OWWsAAiIMK.jpg)
https://twitter.com/eisingerj/status/1148408770571190272
QuoteHere's a passage suggesting Epstein's billionaire clients would give him their "billion" and sign over power of attorney. Yes, those meek lil' billionaires.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-_3sFfWwAYzXoY.jpg)
Lol, dude's a conspiracy theorist's wet dream
Jeffrey Epstein is a former member of the Mind, Brain and Behavior Committee at Harvard, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the New York Academy of Science and a former Rockefeller University Board Member. Mr. Epstein is also an active member of the Edge Organization. (http://www.jeffreyepstein.org/Jeffrey_Epstein.html)
I never really got into U2.
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
There was an audio recording where Trump bragged about regular sexual harassment of women. If that didn't put a dent in his support, I don't see how any horrible written claim of the Mainstream Traitor Media would manage to.
Why is Tim linking to twitter?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 09, 2019, 11:31:18 PM
Not a direct quote from him, but from people who knew him at the time
Jimmy I don't know who is being quoted in this "people who knew him" block quote but I know there is zero evidence of him having billionaire clients before Wexner.
But if you google Epstein's name with Steven Hoffenberg's you will see he was involved in deals in the 80s that were far less rarified than that. He was holding himself out to be a glorified debt collector.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 10, 2019, 08:38:03 AM
Why is Tim linking to twitter?
Been doing that for the last 2 or 3 years because that's where all the politicians and journalists are.
And those journalists can post rumors their editors would never allow.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 10, 2019, 07:12:14 PM
And those journalists can post rumors their editors would never allow.
Makes it more interesting that way.
Quote from: Barrister on July 09, 2019, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 09, 2019, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
Well, you can't, but perhaps your President can. ;)
There seems no limit to the tolerance of the Republicans, and large parts of the public, for presidential wrongdoing. What's one child rape more or less?
Trump himself did say he could shoot someone on New York's Fifth Avenue and his fans would still love him...
And yet, he's notably never tested that assertion.
Yikes
https://mobile.twitter.com/kaoconnor/status/1148734010023194624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1148734010023194624&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.somethingawful.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D3892697%26pagenumber%3D189%23lastpost
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2019, 06:37:29 AM
Yikes
https://mobile.twitter.com/kaoconnor/status/1148734010023194624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1148734010023194624&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.somethingawful.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D3892697%26pagenumber%3D189%23lastpost
It'd be helpful if you at least quoted whatever it is you're linking to.
QuoteWas this the cause of the supposed fallout between #Trump and #Epstein? A fight over who gets plaintiff's virginity? filed April 2016.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_EfcXzW4AEbjv9?format=png&name=4096x4096)
Is this from that lawsuit that was thrown out.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2019, 07:50:28 AM
Is this from that lawsuit that was thrown out.
It wasn't thrown out. The plaintiff withdrew after threats were made against her.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2019, 08:18:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2019, 07:50:28 AM
Is this from that lawsuit that was thrown out.
It wasn't thrown out. The plaintiff withdrew after threats were made against her.
I assume these threats were in the form of retarded tweets?
Trump has an ironclad defense: he is too old and obese to have sex with anyone.
He would probably prefer to go down in flames than admit this, however.
Quote from: The Brain on July 11, 2019, 08:20:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2019, 08:18:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2019, 07:50:28 AM
Is this from that lawsuit that was thrown out.
It wasn't thrown out. The plaintiff withdrew after threats were made against her.
I assume these threats were in the form of retarded tweets?
Cohen was called Trump's fixer for a reason. Doubtlessly he called her a bunch, threatening to ruin her with lawsuits, maybe hired some goons to intimidate her, typical wannabe mafioso stuff.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 11, 2019, 09:01:25 AM
Trump has an ironclad defense: he is too old and obese to have sex with anyone.
He would probably prefer to go down in flames than admit this, however.
These allegations are from 15-20 years ago though.
Tim just wants this stuff to be true.
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
You're kidding, right? To his base, these aren't "children", and it's not rape. They're femme fatale teenaged "women" who got paid, so what's the big deal? Their lives were made better by being involved in all of this. After all, if it were that bad, why would some of the "women" turn into pimps for him once they got too old to be of use in his bedroom? Clearly it's not that big of a deal.
Sheesh, Valmy. You just don't understand these "women". They'll get you any chance they can.
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2019, 09:57:54 AM
Tim just wants this stuff to be true.
That doesn't mean that it's not true.
I don't know if it's true or not, but based on what we do know of Trump's personality, it's certainly believable.
Still, I think you're probably right--if it was someone whose policies Timmay approved of, he'd probably be posting stuff defending the person.
The facts that are known and undeniable are awful enough one does not need to latch on to unverifiable accounts. The facts are that Trump was friends with and partied regularly with a notorious sexual predator, that Trump specifically singled out taste in women as a shared trait, that Trump was fully aware of Epstein's taste for young girls at the time he was partying with Epstein, and that Trump himself has admitted to assaulting women sexually.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2019, 06:37:29 AM
Yikes
https://mobile.twitter.com/kaoconnor/status/1148734010023194624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1148734010023194624&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.somethingawful.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D3892697%26pagenumber%3D189%23lastpost
I was raped just by browsing through that twitter account.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 11, 2019, 12:36:43 PM
The facts that are known and undeniable are awful enough one does not need to latch on to unverifiable accounts. The facts are that Trump was friends with and partied regularly with a notorious sexual predator, that Trump specifically singled out taste in women as a shared trait, that Trump was fully aware of Epstein's taste for young girls at the time he was partying with Epstein, and that Trump himself has admitted to assaulting women sexually.
And yet....
I don't even know anymore what's "enough". I mean, he's gone so far off the deep end in so many ways, and he still has 40% approval.
As for Epstein, I hope that fucker ends up in solitary confinement for life. Let him live in his own head until the day he dies.
Quote from: merithyn on July 11, 2019, 11:43:15 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Really? Is child rape something you can just "fake news" away?
You're kidding, right? To his base, these aren't "children", and it's not rape. They're femme fatale teenaged "women" who got paid, so what's the big deal? Their lives were made better by being involved in all of this. After all, if it were that bad, why would some of the "women" turn into pimps for him once they got too old to be of use in his bedroom? Clearly it's not that big of a deal.
Sheesh, Valmy. You just don't understand these "women". They'll get you any chance they can.
Sadly, that's probably the 'thinking' of a big chunk of his base, the rest will just try and ignore it, then focus on the 'positives', like 'he says what he thinks' etc.
Quote from: dps on July 11, 2019, 12:30:36 PM
Still, I think you're probably right--if it was someone whose policies Timmay approved of, he'd probably be posting stuff defending the person.
Nope. I demanded Franken's resignation over a hell of a lot less than this and I loved him.
Tim, I love you and defend you 99% of the time, but why would you demand Franken's resignation?
IIRC, all the scandal was about that photo right?
Iirc like 5 or 6 women accused him of groping
Quote from: HVC on July 11, 2019, 10:51:34 PM
Iirc like 5 or 6 women accused him of groping
Yup, one can be forgiven, but it was obviously a pattern of behavior.
Quote from: Caliga on July 12, 2019, 09:20:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2019, 02:02:55 AM
Yup, one can be forgiven
:hmm:
Choose carefully - you only get one free grope! :P
[I think what he meant to say was that one may be a case of mistake, but many = a pattern, making it more likely there was no mistake involved.]
Ah. :)
Acosta resigns: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/alex-acosta-donald-trump-labor-secretary/index.html
QuoteWashington (CNN)President Donald Trump announced Friday that Labor Secretary Alex Acosta has resigned, a move that comes after furor over a plea deal with Jeffrey Epstein.
Acosta has been under renewed scrutiny over his previous role as the US attorney in Miami, during which he negotiated the 2008 plea deal with Epstein. Epstein, a well-connected multi-millionaire, avoided a federal trial at the time and served only 13 months in prison for state prostitution charges over his involvement with underage girls. A Miami Herald investigation published last November described the plea deal, negotiated by Acosta, as the "deal of a lifetime."
Quote from: merithyn on July 11, 2019, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 11, 2019, 12:36:43 PM
The facts that are known and undeniable are awful enough one does not need to latch on to unverifiable accounts. The facts are that Trump was friends with and partied regularly with a notorious sexual predator, that Trump specifically singled out taste in women as a shared trait, that Trump was fully aware of Epstein's taste for young girls at the time he was partying with Epstein, and that Trump himself has admitted to assaulting women sexually.
And yet....
I don't even know anymore what's "enough". I mean, he's gone so far off the deep end in so many ways, and he still has 40% approval.
As for Epstein, I hope that fucker ends up in solitary confinement for life. Let him live in his own head until the day he dies.
nah, you want him out in Gen Pop.
Quote from: Caliga on July 12, 2019, 09:20:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 12, 2019, 02:02:55 AM
Yup, one can be forgiven
:hmm:
The woman in question forgave him, and while bad, it was clearly an act far lower in severity than the acts attributed to Trump, Cosby, etc. So if it was a one time thing, like Malthus says we can accept it as a mistake, but more than that and it's a pattern of predation and exploitation.
I did not know about the 5-6 women accusing him.
Mea culpa.
It's true. Reality is far more ridiculous than fiction. Eccentric :hmm:
https://twitter.com/dchiasso/status/1149873057047228416
QuoteDonald Barr, AG Barr's father, who hired Epstein to teach at Dalton at the age of 20 w/ no degree, also wrote a sci-fi novel about the pleasures of sex slavery.
7:47 PM - 12 Jul 2019
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_UsCTCXUAA4_YR.png)
from an Amazon review:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Utts6XoAAgCeU.png)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_XIIqqWsAIpNFY.png)
Judges ruled that 2,000 pages of documents will released and it is expected that lots of famous names are going to be on that list.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-grows-more-grotesque/amp
Did he get bail release? I haven't seen anything on it since early this week.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 17, 2019, 05:32:02 PM
Judges ruled that 2,000 pages of documents will released and it is expected that lots of famous names are going to be on that list.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-grows-more-grotesque/amp (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-grows-more-grotesque/amp)
That reads like an insane conspiracy theory.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2019, 06:23:03 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 17, 2019, 05:32:02 PM
Judges ruled that 2,000 pages of documents will released and it is expected that lots of famous names are going to be on that list.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-grows-more-grotesque/amp (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-grows-more-grotesque/amp)
That reads like an insane conspiracy theory.
Hell there is even a Rothschild in the story.
I don't know what to believe anymore. :(
Bail was denied, in part because he was found to have in his possession a fake passport which shows he's not above getting counterfeit/forged travel documents. There were interesting stamps on the fake passport going back to the 80s as well. He claims he bought the fake passport to protect himself from being targeted as a "Jew" when traveling in the Middle East, and says the stamps on the passport predate when he bought it on the black market.
I had to go to the state courthouse this morning - the rear entrance comes out where the rear entrance of the federal courthouse is located. Had to carry my trial exhibits through a thicket of cameras and press camped outside the federal courthouse.
Did it give you a rush? :D
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2019, 07:10:18 AM
I don't know what to believe anymore. :(
wait for the document to be released.
Found dead in his cell, apparently suicide. <_<
It's the Reichsmarschall all over again. :(
So... did he have too much dirt on important people? :ph34r:
Seems like bankers with dirt on important people on both sides of the political divide are prone to suicide. 5 or so years ago a broker with probable dirt on both big political parties in Hungary "killed himself" on the back seat of a police car "taking something". :lol:
No conspiracy necessary, he was looking at a lengthy jail sentence as a convicted pedophile.
Quote from: Tamas on August 10, 2019, 08:41:04 AM
Seems like bankers with dirt on important people on both sides of the political divide are prone to suicide. 5 or so years ago a broker with probable dirt on both big political parties in Hungary "killed himself" on the back seat of a police car "taking something". :lol:
Yeah, he tried to kill himself 2 weeks ago and they allowed him to finish the job?
I hear he chopped himself up and put himself in the trash. Guy must've had some demons.
Totally did not see that coming.
Well, guess that wraps everything up! Time to close the case and burn all the evidence.
Let this serve a lesson to us all.
- You were the guard on the night that the inmate killed himself?
- Yes, your honor.
- And you say he hung himself?.
- Yes, your honor.
- So why did the suspect's skull have numerous bruises and fractures?
- He used a rubber band, your honor.
Quote from: Syt on August 10, 2019, 03:45:13 PM
- You were the guard on the night that the inmate killed himself?
- Yes, your honor.
- And you say he hung hanged himself?.
- Yes, your honor.
- So why did the suspect's skull have numerous bruises and fractures?
- He used a rubber band, your honor.
FTFY. Another of the odd little quirks of English.
:rolleyes:
Why is this death being referred to as a suicide in much of the media, surely it's up to the relevant authorities to determine the cause of death?
Quote from: mongers on August 10, 2019, 04:51:49 PM
Why is this death being referred to as a suicide in much of the media, surely it's up to the relevant authorities to determine the cause of death?
Responsible media is calling it "apparent suicide," but much of the media isn't very responsible. Why are you paying attention to irresponsible media?
Quote from: derspiess on August 10, 2019, 04:01:50 PM
:rolleyes:
:lol: Sorry to have triggered you. Not sorry to have helped Syt understand a quirk of English.
Quote from: grumbler on August 10, 2019, 05:17:21 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 10, 2019, 04:51:49 PM
Why is this death being referred to as a suicide in much of the media, surely it's up to the relevant authorities to determine the cause of death?
Responsible media is calling it "apparent suicide," but much of the media isn't very responsible. Why are you paying attention to irresponsible media?
Maybe it's just a question of volume--there is so much more of the irresponsible media than there is of the responsible media.
Quote from: dps on August 10, 2019, 10:10:15 PM
Maybe it's just a question of volume--there is so much more of the irresponsible media than there is of the responsible media.
If one is judging the quality of the media one consumes based on the volume, then one is doing it wrong. That's the problem with things like Twitter and Facebook; content is vast, quality content is infinitesimal. Luckily, it takes little effort to stay out of the main stream of social media.
The President of the United States retweeted conspiracy theories linking the Clintons to the death of Epstein
Quote from: mongers on August 10, 2019, 04:51:49 PM
Why is this death being referred to as a suicide in much of the media, surely it's up to the relevant authorities to determine the cause of death?
The relevant authorities determined the cause of death well in advance. :ph34r:
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid "can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations."
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
Maybe The Deep State is now working for Donnie. :ph34r:
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid "can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations."
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
So a slightly more plausible suicide than "shot himself in the back of the head three times."
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid "can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations."
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
So a slightly more plausible suicide than "shot himself in the back of the head three times."
I think the entire think stinks to high heavens, but the "broken bone" thing isn't much evidence either way. Those breaks happen 1/3 times with strangulation, and 1/4 times with hanging. That isn't very compelling evidence that he didn't hang himself.
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 09:29:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid "can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations."
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
So a slightly more plausible suicide than "shot himself in the back of the head three times."
I think the entire think stinks to high heavens, but the "broken bone" thing isn't much evidence either way. Those breaks happen 1/3 times with strangulation, and 1/4 times with hanging. That isn't very compelling evidence that he didn't hang himself.
Fair enough. I don't generally buy into these sorts of conspiracy theories, but it does almost seem like at least someone(s) were paid to turn a blind eye and let him kill himself.
Don't underestimate general incompetence. People lazy out and screw around at work all the time.
Quote from: Zoupa on August 15, 2019, 11:47:13 PM
Don't underestimate general incompetence. People lazy out and screw around at work all the time.
How dare you talk about our president like that.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 09:29:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid “can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations.”
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
So a slightly more plausible suicide than "shot himself in the back of the head three times."
I think the entire think stinks to high heavens, but the "broken bone" thing isn't much evidence either way. Those breaks happen 1/3 times with strangulation, and 1/4 times with hanging. That isn't very compelling evidence that he didn't hang himself.
Fair enough. I don't generally buy into these sorts of conspiracy theories, but it does almost seem like at least someone(s) were paid to turn a blind eye and let him kill himself.
I have a suspicion that a lot of guards wouldn't have to be paid to turn a blind eye towards a prisoner trying to kill himself.
Quote from: dps on August 16, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
I have a suspicion that a lot of guards wouldn't have to be paid to turn a blind eye towards a prisoner trying to kill himself.
Almost every CO I know and have encountered are very right wing. Say it is for the good of Trump and The Party, and they'd assist in any way they could.
Quote from: dps on August 16, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 09:29:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid "can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations."
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
So a slightly more plausible suicide than "shot himself in the back of the head three times."
I think the entire think stinks to high heavens, but the "broken bone" thing isn't much evidence either way. Those breaks happen 1/3 times with strangulation, and 1/4 times with hanging. That isn't very compelling evidence that he didn't hang himself.
Fair enough. I don't generally buy into these sorts of conspiracy theories, but it does almost seem like at least someone(s) were paid to turn a blind eye and let him kill himself.
I have a suspicion that a lot of guards wouldn't have to be paid to turn a blind eye towards a prisoner trying to kill himself.
For a regular prisoner, yeah I guess. But for an extremely high profile like this one, I am pretty sure bribery had to be made. I mean, it's one thing not to mind if somebody dies, it's another having to answer for it to your higher ups.
Quote from: Tamas on August 16, 2019, 02:00:54 AM
Quote from: dps on August 16, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 09:29:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 15, 2019, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2019, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Autopsy shows multiple broken bones in Epstein's neck.
He was killed
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-had-broken-neck-bones.html
"NBC News medical expert Dr. John Torres said that a broken hyoid “can happen in both strangulation and hanging, but occurs in more often in strangulations.”
Torres noted that studies have found that a broken hyoid occurs in about 1 out of every 3 strangulations, and in 25% of hangings."
Did you even read the article you posted?
So a slightly more plausible suicide than "shot himself in the back of the head three times."
I think the entire think stinks to high heavens, but the "broken bone" thing isn't much evidence either way. Those breaks happen 1/3 times with strangulation, and 1/4 times with hanging. That isn't very compelling evidence that he didn't hang himself.
Fair enough. I don't generally buy into these sorts of conspiracy theories, but it does almost seem like at least someone(s) were paid to turn a blind eye and let him kill himself.
I have a suspicion that a lot of guards wouldn't have to be paid to turn a blind eye towards a prisoner trying to kill himself.
For a regular prisoner, yeah I guess. But for an extremely high profile like this one, I am pretty sure bribery had to be made. I mean, it's one thing not to mind if somebody dies, it's another having to answer for it to your higher ups.
If he was jailed for investment fraud or some other type of white-collar crime, maybe. But for a pedophile?
Quote from: dps on August 16, 2019, 07:58:05 AM
If he was jailed for investment fraud or some other type of white-collar crime, maybe. But for a pedophile?
The issue is the amount of heat they would have to take after the body was found.
The guards would have to have known that they would be raked over the coals by investigators if someone this high profile dies on their watch. The consequences for them personally are likely to be bad. So if it wasn't simply incompetence, they must have had a strong motive to take such a risk.
No doubt plenty of guards would not give a damn if a prisoner offs himself, particularly a wealthy pedophile. However, they do give a damn about themselves.
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
It always is. That doesn't mean it is always the correct explanation. Can't rule it out without evidence to the contrary, though.
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
Indeed.
The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.
In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.
It's a large organization, probably very understaffed and those working there are not the best and brightest. Hence, massive fuckups on a regular basis.
You have to be pretty fucking incompetent to accidentally strangle yourself.
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
Also habit.
Most people will try to take the shortest path. That's why we have audits.
If these centers have deficient auditing schemes, I guarantee that inspections are missed and checklists routinely faked. Because nothing ever happens. It ends up being part of the job.
We still have access to his seconds, his victims, and all manner of other witnesses. To think he would have magically spilled everything seems strange. Though I'm not ruling out foul play, I lean toward a simple suicide at this point. He had a lot to fear in terms of a long prison stay and the more that came out the less that his heirs would stand to inherit I presume. Might as well off himself before reaching general population or seeing all of his assets seized to pay his victims.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 16, 2019, 01:15:48 AM
Quote from: dps on August 16, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
I have a suspicion that a lot of guards wouldn't have to be paid to turn a blind eye towards a prisoner trying to kill himself.
Almost every CO I know and have encountered are very right wing. Say it is for the good of Trump and The Party, and they'd assist in any way they could.
Everyone I met was pretty right wing as well. They were to a man, blithering idiots. For instance there was the occasion when a big moving truck from the prison came to the central office. Two inmates got out of the cab, walked around back, and opened the door to the truck and two CO's jumped out. We once had an off duty CO die during a fishing trip because he tried to swallow a living fish. Last word were something to the effect "Hey guys, watch this". The only saving grace is that most of the inmates are just as stupid.
Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:04:36 AM
Quote from: dps on August 16, 2019, 07:58:05 AM
If he was jailed for investment fraud or some other type of white-collar crime, maybe. But for a pedophile?
The issue is the amount of heat they would have to take after the body was found.
The guards would have to have known that they would be raked over the coals by investigators if someone this high profile dies on their watch. The consequences for them personally are likely to be bad. So if it wasn't simply incompetence, they must have had a strong motive to take such a risk.
No doubt plenty of guards would not give a damn if a prisoner offs himself, particularly a wealthy pedophile. However, they do give a damn about themselves.
Officers almost never get in trouble for straight up killing unarmed people on the street. Due to this their risk assessment is skewed.
Quote from: Legbiter on August 16, 2019, 09:55:00 AM
It's a large organization, probably very understaffed and those working there are not the best and brightest. Hence, massive fuckups on a regular basis.
It's only the 2nd suicide in that facility in the last 21 years IIRC, so they don't fuck up that often.
Quote from: jimmy olsen
Officers almost never get in trouble for straight up killing unarmed people on the street. Due to this their risk assessment is skewed.
What does that have to do with prison guards?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on August 17, 2019, 10:33:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen
Officers almost never get in trouble for straight up killing unarmed people on the street. Due to this their risk assessment is skewed.
What does that have to do with prison guards?
I think that police officers and corrections officers have similar mentalities.
Mentalities, sure. You were talking about experiences.
I've been to that facility many times, always seemed pretty buttoned down, and they've had high profile prisoners there without much incident.
But you never really know
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 17, 2019, 08:07:33 PM
I've been to that facility many times
But always got out on technicalities? :P
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 17, 2019, 08:07:33 PM
I've been to that facility many times, always seemed pretty buttoned down, and they've had high profile prisoners there without much incident.
But you never really know
I thought you were in M&A for some reason. Perchance are you a VP at Pierce & Pierce?
I thought he was in MMA?
Quote from: Syt on August 18, 2019, 12:01:28 AM
But always got out on technicalities? :P
Presumption of innocence. Like Trump.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 18, 2019, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 18, 2019, 12:01:28 AM
But always got out on technicalities? :P
Presumption of innocence. Like Trump.
They can't lock up a legal mind like Minsky has. The rest of the body? Sure.
Never did M&A. Capital markets (securities offerings) for about 3-4 years; commercial litigation since then. As part of the latter I did some pro bono criminal defense.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 17, 2019, 06:55:25 AM
Officers almost never get in trouble for straight up killing unarmed people on the street. Due to this their risk assessment is skewed.
This is a fundamentally different situation though. A prison guard could be reasonably sure that the suspicious death of a very high profile prisoner who is making front page news would catch all sorts of heat.
A cop shooting an unarmed relative nobody could look to many recent examples and reasonably conclude his chances of getting away with it with a slap on the wrist were pretty good.
Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
Indeed.
The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.
In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.
This is what I'm thinking, and that the medical examiner made the announcement of suicide too fast, before other investigations were done. Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging. Lots of coincidences that added up for this to happen - cameras not working, guards asleep and/or not regular guards. But while suspicious I tend to feel there are too many people to pay off and to keep quiet, then too many pieces to put in place in order for this to have been staged.
Quote from: KRonn on August 19, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
Indeed.
The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.
In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.
This is what I'm thinking, and that the medical examiner made the announcement of suicide too fast, before other investigations were done. Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging. Lots of coincidences that added up for this to happen - cameras not working, guards asleep and/or not regular guards. But while suspicious I tend to feel there are too many people to pay off and to keep quiet, then too many pieces to put in place in order for this to have been staged.
How fast was the ME "announcement" compared to other apparent suicide autopsies? I mean, if you *know* it was "too fast" then of course you must know how much slower this typically takes. Can you share that information with us?
Also, you say "broken neck bones 'usually caused by strangulation'". Interesting that you know that, but the ME apparently did not. Seems like something they would know.
And this happens with hanging as well, by "more rarely".
How much more rarely, in the case of an older victim? Clearly you know, since you are sure this is obvious evidence that the ME apparently ignored in their "too fast" announcement.
Quote from: KRonn on August 19, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging.
if the guy was 20, you'd be absolutely right. But broken neck bones in case of suicides tend to happen more frequently as the victim ages. While I haven't checked his age, he does seem older than 20-something.
As for the timing, it's not that it takes a while to do an autopsy and publish a report, it's that usually, such cases aren't exactly top priority to get a ME do it on sunday morning. On overtime, maybe. A John Doe might have been handled by an assistant ME, than revised by a ME, who would then take some time to finalize the report.
Here, we have a high profile case, and I doubt it was an assistant who did the primary work, or even that interns were watching the process to learn alongside the practinioner. This tends to expedite things.
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2019, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: KRonn on August 19, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.
Indeed.
The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.
In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.
This is what I'm thinking, and that the medical examiner made the announcement of suicide too fast, before other investigations were done. Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging. Lots of coincidences that added up for this to happen - cameras not working, guards asleep and/or not regular guards. But while suspicious I tend to feel there are too many people to pay off and to keep quiet, then too many pieces to put in place in order for this to have been staged.
How fast was the ME "announcement" compared to other apparent suicide autopsies? I mean, if you *know* it was "too fast" then of course you must know how much slower this typically takes. Can you share that information with us?
Also, you say "broken neck bones 'usually caused by strangulation'". Interesting that you know that, but the ME apparently did not. Seems like something they would know.
And this happens with hanging as well, by "more rarely".
How much more rarely, in the case of an older victim? Clearly you know, since you are sure this is obvious evidence that the ME apparently ignored in their "too fast" announcement.
Heh, I'm just going by what medical experts and doctors have said but you're right since most of them are giving views on TV and haven't done the actual examinations nor spoken with the examiners. Then too, I think it's rational to have some suspicions given Epstein was such a high visibility prisoner and there was so much failure leading to his death. As I did say though above, suspicions aside, the failure is much more likely due to incompetence and not a rather large conspiracy involving a number of people.