Htichens was fucking right. <_<
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43404265/ns/the_new_york_times/
QuotePakistan arrests C.I.A. informants in bin Laden raid
Move is latest evidence of fractured relationship with Washington
By ERIC SCHMITT and MARK MAZZETTI
The New York Times
updated 8 minutes ago 2011-06-15T03:19:15
WASHINGTON — Pakistan's top military spy agency has arrested some of the Pakistani informants who fed information to the Central Intelligence Agency in the months leading up to the raid that led to the death of Osama bin Laden, according to American officials.
Pakistan's detention of five C.I.A. informants, including a Pakistani Army major who officials said copied the license plates of cars visiting Bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, in the weeks before the raid, is the latest evidence of the fractured relationship between the United States and Pakistan. It comes at a time when the Obama administration is seeking Pakistan's support in brokering an endgame in the war in neighboring Afghanistan.
At a closed briefing last week, members of the Senate Intelligence Committee asked Michael J. Morell, the deputy C.I.A. director, to rate Pakistan's cooperation with the United States on counterterrorism operations, on a scale of 1 to 10.
"Three," Mr. Morell replied, according to officials familiar with the exchange.
The fate of the C.I.A. informants arrested in Pakistan is unclear, but American officials said that the C.I.A. director, Leon E. Panetta, raised the issue when he traveled to Islamabad last week to meet with Pakistani military and intelligence officers.
Blow to military
Some in Washington see the arrests as illustrative of the disconnect between Pakistani and American priorities at a time when they are supposed to be allies in the fight against Al Qaeda — instead of hunting down the support network that allowed Bin Laden to live comfortably for years, the Pakistani authorities are arresting those who assisted in the raid that killed the world's most wanted man.
The Bin Laden raid and more recent attacks by militants in Pakistan have been blows to the country's military, a revered institution in the country. Some officials and outside experts said the military is mired in its worst crisis of confidence in decades.
Story: Pakistan parliament condemns bin Laden raid
American officials cautioned that Mr. Morell's comments about Pakistani support was a snapshot of the current relationship, and did not represent the administration's overall assessment.
"We have a strong relationship with our Pakistani counterparts and work through issues when they arise," said Marie E. Harf, a C.I.A. spokeswoman. "Director Panetta had productive meetings last week in Islamabad. It's a crucial partnership, and we will continue to work together in the fight against Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups who threaten our country and theirs."
Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, said in a brief telephone interview that the C.I.A. and the Pakistani spy agency "are working out mutually agreeable terms for their cooperation in fighting the menace of terrorism. It is not appropriate for us to get into the details at this stage."
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Over the past several weeks the Pakistani military has been distancing itself from American intelligence and counterterrorism operations against militant groups in Pakistan. This has angered many in Washington who believe that Bin Laden's death has shaken Al Qaeda and that there is now an opportunity to further weaken the terrorist organization with more raids and armed drone strikes.
Drone program in question
But in recent months, dating approximately to when a C.I.A. contractor killed two Pakistanis on a street in the eastern city of Lahore in January, American officials said that Pakistani spies from the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, known as the ISI, have been generally unwilling to carry out surveillance operations for the C.I.A.. The Pakistanis have also resisted granting visas allowing American intelligence officers to operate in Pakistan, and have threatened to put greater restrictions on the drone flights.
It is the future of the drone program that is a particular worry for the C.I.A. American officials said that during his meetings in Pakistan last week, Mr. Panetta was particularly forceful about trying to get Pakistani officials to allow armed drones to fly over even wider areas in the northwest tribal regions. But the C.I.A. is already preparing for the worst: relocating some of the drones from Pakistan to a base in Afghanistan, where they can take off and fly east across the mountains and into the tribal areas, where terrorist groups find safe haven.
Another casualty of the recent tension is an ambitious Pentagon program to train Pakistani paramilitary troops to fight Al Qaeda and the Taliban in those same tribal areas. That program has ended, both American and Pakistani officials acknowledge, and the last of about 120 American military advisers have left the country.
American officials are now scrambling to find temporary jobs for about 50 Special Forces support personnel who had been helping the trainers with logistics and communications. Their visas were difficult to obtain and officials fear if these troops are sent home, Pakistan will not allow them to return.
In a sign of the growing anger on Capitol Hill, Representative Mike Rogers, a Michigan Republican who leads the House Intelligence Committee, said Tuesday that he believed elements of the ISI and the military had helped protect Bin Laden.
Mr. Rogers, who met with senior security officials in Pakistan last week, said he had no evidence that senior Pakistani military or civilian leaders were complicit in sheltering Bin Laden. And he did not offer any proof to support his assertion, saying only his accusation was based on "information that I've seen."
Story: Pakistan detains ex-navy personnel after raid
He warned that both lawmakers and the Obama administration could end up putting more restrictions on the $2 billion in American military aid received annually by Pakistan. He also called for "benchmarks" in the relationship, including more sharing of information about militant activities in Karachi, Lahore and elsewhere and more American access to militants detained in Pakistan.
Taliban fight
American military commanders in Afghanistan appear cautiously optimistic that they are making progress in pushing the Taliban from its strongholds in that country's south, but many say a significant American military withdrawal can occur only if the warring sides in Afghanistan broker some kind of peace deal.
But the United States is reliant on Pakistan to apply pressure on Taliban leaders, over whom they have historically had great influence.
For now, at least, America's relationship with Pakistan keeps getting tripped up. When he visited Pakistan, Mr. Panetta offered evidence of collusion between Pakistani security officials and the militants staging attacks in Afghanistan.
American officials said Mr. Panetta presented satellite photographs of two bomb-making factories that American spies several weeks ago had asked the ISI to raid. When Pakistani troops showed up days later, the militants were gone, causing American officials to question whether the militants had been warned by someone on the Pakistani side.
Shortly after the failed raids, the Defense Department put a hold on a $300 million payment reimbursing Pakistan for the cost of deploying more than 100,000 troops along the border with Afghanistan, two officials said. The Pentagon declined to comment on the payment, except to say it was "continuing to process several claims."
This article, "Pakistan arrests C.I.A. informants in bin Laden raid," first appeared in The New York Times.
What about me?
Was I right in preaching the evils of mud peoples, and the stupidity in trusting them?
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:11:35 AM
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
Men were not guttet for Odin, they were crucified onto trees. :contract:
Al-Kwarzimi may have invented al-gibr, but, Ole Svensson and Firstname Firstnamesson are doing it while Achmed, Muhammed and Abdullah are not.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:11:35 AM
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
Joke will be on you when the Vikings develop The Bomb in 1253. :yeah:
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Which is why I gave them 500 years instead of 50. :sleep:
My gift to the peoples of the 9th century will be enlightenment, not guns.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Technological knowledge is self-accelerating, though. Seed the 9th century people with enough of what you know, and they'll take what you know and run with it. The biggest challenge would be to ensure that 9th century place you wind up in will have the educational and research infrastructure in place.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:11:35 AM
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
Well, if that proves anything, it's that nordmen can adapt and learn faster and more effecitvely than camel- and goatpeople.
What you did was the exact same argument as east euro nazis who think they are huns: "omg we totally pwnd everyone for a decade or two 1500 years ago. we are teh superior people to all"
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 03:05:03 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
Sounds interesting, I'll have to check one out.
I'm not sure the Dark Ages had that great a retardant effect on overall technological progress, mainly because they were localized. Chinese, Indians, Mideasterners and Greeks were still innovating, and many technologies percolated to the West before the Mongols brought about their own Dark Ages.
@DGuller- I agree. I just think his timeframe is too ambitious.
I'd rather live in a present-day Detroit ghetto than be a Viking chieftain in the 9th century.
No wait, I'm channeling someone. :o
Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2011, 03:52:49 AM
I'd rather live in a present-day Detroit ghetto than be a Viking chieftain in the 9th century.
No wait, I'm channeling someone. :o
Someone rational.
Detroit is easier to escape.
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:48:11 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Which is why I gave them 500 years instead of 50. :sleep:
My gift to the peoples of the 9th century will be enlightenment, not guns.
I imagine the people of 9th century Sweden can probably sell kitchen cabinets with out your help.
I think I could conceivably get a shitty hydroelectric plant going at any point in the past up to about 500 BC, if I had unlimited access to architects, masons, metalsmiths and slave labor.
I couldn't design anything more advanced than an oven or incandescent light that would utilize any electricity I managed to get out of it, though.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 03:05:03 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Came_Early
Perhaps a more relevant story and probably closer to Slargos in the 9th century.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 05:44:37 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:48:11 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Which is why I gave them 500 years instead of 50. :sleep:
My gift to the peoples of the 9th century will be enlightenment, not guns.
I imagine the people of 9th century Sweden can probably sell kitchen cabinets with out your help.
And yet you cannot. There is some irony in there somewhere. :hug:
Give me 30 years & maybe I could teach them how to make a transistor.
No idea how to find any of the required materials tho.
I would build a simple nuke to start with and take it from there.
I have it on good authority that the main "informants" are already under the protective custody of Special Forces where they were persuaded to share the vital information used to capture Bin laden under "rigorous interrogation techniques".
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:11:35 AM
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
So, he has to go back merely twelve centuries to find Swedish savages of the same kind that the modern Muslim savages? What an utterly feeble retort. Seriously. I mean, telling Americans off because they owned slaves mere two hundred years ago seems like the height of relevance in comparison.
Actually, I just realized that merely learning to speak to people would take at least a year, prior to about 1400 (or so?), and even then only if I happened to reappear in England. Although I'd be highly employable in England, as long as I didn't run my mouth about any of my political or religious beliefs ("Who? Jesus? Yeah, he's great, guys! And a monarchy sure is the way to go.").
The most exciting part would be the opportunity to exterminate Scots. Those people are amongst the most Goddamn obnoxious on the face of the planet.
You would probably have a working vocabulary long before then. Necessity etc etc.
Back to the topic at hand, rather than a retarded-comment-in-response-to-racist-quip-turned-into-a-AI-nerd-circle-jerk this thread has become, I don't see anything wrong per se with Pakistan arresting the informants - you never want your own military personnel selling state secrets to foreign powers, even if they are your allies.
The Pakistanis' fault lies in not cooperating at the government/agency level, but can't blame them for rooting out traitors.
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 06:16:30 AM
You would probably have a working vocabulary long before then. Necessity etc etc.
I guess that's proably likely. The only time I was ever plopped down in a place where no one spoke English was downtown Atlanta. I don't believe any of them could've helped me build a hydroelectric facility.
Geez. I thought Languish was above topics like "If you were transported 1200 years in the past, how fast would you teach the natives to build a nuke". Seriously. :rolleyes:
10-20 years probably.
Frankly, I couldn't do it.
I would have to plant the seed and hope for the best.
But consider this:
Basic theories of sanitation, medicine, agriculture and steam engines for the Viking hordes.
If you thought the population explosion in Scandinavia was an inconvenience in this timeline, you ain't seen nuffin yet. :smoke:
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 06:17:35 AM
Back to the topic at hand, rather than a retarded-comment-in-response-to-racist-quip-turned-into-a-AI-nerd-circle-jerk this thread has become, I don't see anything wrong per se with Pakistan arresting the informants - you never want your own military personnel selling state secrets to foreign powers, even if they are your allies.
The Pakistanis' fault lies in not cooperating at the government/agency level, but can't blame them for rooting out traitors.
I can blame them very much for considering Bin Laden's location a state secret.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2011, 06:37:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 06:17:35 AM
Back to the topic at hand, rather than a retarded-comment-in-response-to-racist-quip-turned-into-a-AI-nerd-circle-jerk this thread has become, I don't see anything wrong per se with Pakistan arresting the informants - you never want your own military personnel selling state secrets to foreign powers, even if they are your allies.
The Pakistanis' fault lies in not cooperating at the government/agency level, but can't blame them for rooting out traitors.
I can blame them very much for considering Bin Laden's location a state secret.
Oh yes. They should give up the location of a man who will be murdered by Americans when you find him. :rolleyes:
They knew he would never see a court room.
:huh: The US wouldn't mind Pakistani forces going into America and killing guys.
Why are people surprised that OBL was staying at a government safe house ?
Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2011, 06:43:05 AM
:huh: The US wouldn't mind Pakistani forces going into America and killing guys.
We let the Chileans do it.
Quote from: mongers on June 15, 2011, 06:48:16 AM
Why are people surprised that OBL was staying at a government safe house ?
It's more a case of us being surprised that we haven't started bombing the ISI headquarters.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:11:35 AM
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
Yeah seeing a 100% Viking white Scandinavia will really break Slarg's heart.
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 07:48:29 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:11:35 AM
One day, Slargos, I hope someone drops you in to the middle of the 9th Century in whatever shithole Scandinavian country you come from, just to teach you a lesson in the lunacy of presuming your racial superiority over peoples who were inventing Algebra while your shit for brains ancestors were gutting men for Odin.
Yeah seeing a 100% Viking white Scandinavia will really break Slarg's heart.
But who will he blame for rampant poverty and violence?
Lol.. Pakistan should have been just as quick to arrest bin Laden and his cronies as they were in going after these guys! What a farce.
I hope the Pakistanis enjoy holding onto that tiger's tail of radicalism that some segments of their government seems to support. I'm sure it won't bite the hand that feeds it! <_<
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 06:24:09 AM
Geez. I thought Languish was above topics like "If you were transported 1200 years in the past, how fast would you teach the natives to build a nuke". Seriously. :rolleyes:
If we're not above discussing your love life, we're not above discussing anything. Not that a theoretical discussion about historical development is inferior in any way to the n-thousandth thread about current events in the Middle East.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 07:53:57 AM
But who will he blame for rampant poverty and violence?
Christian Missionaries. Damn immigrants.
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2011, 03:16:25 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Technological knowledge is self-accelerating, though. Seed the 9th century people with enough of what you know, and they'll take what you know and run with it. The biggest challenge would be to ensure that 9th century place you wind up in will have the educational and research infrastructure in place.
Actually the biggest challenge would be trying to convince your stomach to adapt to digesting the local foods. :secret:
Quote from: Zeus on June 15, 2011, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2011, 03:16:25 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
Technological knowledge is self-accelerating, though. Seed the 9th century people with enough of what you know, and they'll take what you know and run with it. The biggest challenge would be to ensure that 9th century place you wind up in will have the educational and research infrastructure in place.
Actually the biggest challenge would be trying to convince your stomach to adapt to digesting the local foods. :secret:
bad case of touristas I guess :D
Hell, the US invaded a 9th century country back in 2003 and still hasn't been able to uplift it.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 11:29:32 AM
Hell, the US invaded a 9th century country back in 2003 and still hasn't been able to uplift it.
:pinch:
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 11:29:32 AM
Hell, the US invaded a 9th century country back in 2003 and still hasn't been able to uplift it.
:rolleyes: Missouri is tenth-century, isn't a country, and wasn't invaded in
2003. You got the non-uplifted part right.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2011, 06:37:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 06:17:35 AM
Back to the topic at hand, rather than a retarded-comment-in-response-to-racist-quip-turned-into-a-AI-nerd-circle-jerk this thread has become, I don't see anything wrong per se with Pakistan arresting the informants - you never want your own military personnel selling state secrets to foreign powers, even if they are your allies.
The Pakistanis' fault lies in not cooperating at the government/agency level, but can't blame them for rooting out traitors.
I can blame them very much for considering Bin Laden's location a state secret.
Which is exactly what I said. Can you read?
Quote from: grumbler on June 15, 2011, 11:45:15 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 11:29:32 AM
Hell, the US invaded a 9th century country back in 2003 and still hasn't been able to uplift it.
:rolleyes: Missouri is tenth-century, isn't a country, and wasn't invaded in 2003. You got the non-uplifted part right.
Gee Grumbler, you really got me there. Whatever will I do in the face of your incisive wit?
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:46:20 AM
Which is exactly what I said. Can you read?
I thought that Pakistani government's current official position is that they didn't know Bin Laden was in country. These arrests are inconsistent with that position, because if the government wasn't responsible for Bin Laden's safe haven and didn't know anything about it, then by definition that information cannot be a state secret.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:46:20 AM
Which is exactly what I said. Can you read?
Your post was much longer than mine, and contained a number of assertions which were inconsistent with the part I agreed with.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 03:05:03 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
I've no idea what the actual story is like, but the wiki summary makes it sounds like typical AH crap that overreaches.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2011, 01:09:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:46:20 AM
Which is exactly what I said. Can you read?
I thought that Pakistani government's current official position is that they didn't know Bin Laden was in country. These arrests are inconsistent with that position, because if the government wasn't responsible for Bin Laden's safe haven and didn't know anything about it, then by definition that information cannot be a state secret.
Exactly. Not to mention they've also been receiving a truckload of US money for their "co-operation" up to this point.
With Slargos to guide them, it would probably take the Vikings till the 25th Century to develop indoor plumbing.
Quote from: dps on June 16, 2011, 05:54:07 PM
With Slargos to guide them, it would probably take the Vikings till the 25th Century to develop indoor plumbing.
If I somehow conjure up the magicks to live until the 25th century, that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2011, 10:24:24 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 03:05:03 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
Is that really true though? Do you understand modern technologies well enough for you to recreate them, or 9th century Vikings(you'd be better off in Byzantium methinks) to reverse engineer them?
I think most people(well most educated people) could punch out a bunch of major theoretical break-throughs(gravity, gene theory, heliocentrism, bits and pieces of the calculus, etc) but wouldn't be able to do much with those- it would still fall to 9th century scientists to figure out a use for them.
I think Twain's Connecticut Yankee had far more success in recreating his world than is realistically possible(accepting for a moment the possibility of time travel itself).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
I've no idea what the actual story is like, but the wiki summary makes it sounds like typical AH crap that overreaches.
It's time travel, not AH.
The guy's a college professor and the education given at a liberal arts college at the beginning of the 20th century was a broad one. And it's not like he never failed. He couldn't get gunpowder right.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2011, 07:15:15 PM
It's time travel, not AH.
The guy's a college professor and the education given at a liberal arts college at the beginning of the 20th century was a broad one. And it's not like he never failed. He couldn't get gunpowder right.
And yet he keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages. :rolleyes:
Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2011, 06:41:26 AM
And yet he keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Are you sure you read the book? That's not what happens.
The book is well known because it was one of the early time-travel stories that actually used history and science in its makeup, and because DeCamp's whimsical writing style makes it very accessible, for a fantasy book. Some people may not like it, but it won't be because the main character "keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages."
That sounds like an interesting book. This may be the book I will read this year.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2011, 07:15:15 PM
It's time travel, not AH.
They're not mutually exclusive. The Guns of the South and 1632 for instance.
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2011, 07:31:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2011, 06:41:26 AM
And yet he keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Are you sure you read the book? That's not what happens.
The book is well known because it was one of the early time-travel stories that actually used history and science in its makeup, and because DeCamp's whimsical writing style makes it very accessible, for a fantasy book. Some people may not like it, but it won't be because the main character "keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages."
That seems like a fair description based on the book if I recall correctly. He helps create a stable Ostrogoth Kingdom in Italy (with the help of Belisarius). Mostly though the use of modern political tricks and methods. The book is kinda pulpy, but still a classic in the genre.
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2011, 07:31:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2011, 06:41:26 AM
And yet he keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Are you sure you read the book? That's not what happens.
The book is well known because it was one of the early time-travel stories that actually used history and science in its makeup, and because DeCamp's whimsical writing style makes it very accessible, for a fantasy book. Some people may not like it, but it won't be because the main character "keeps alive a resurgent Ostrogothic kingdom preventing the Dark Ages."
No, I already said: "I've no idea what the actual story is like, but the wiki summary makes it sounds like typical AH crap that overreaches."