Lots of events coming up over the course of the next 15 months or so, might as well make a thread for it.
Today, of course, D-Day -1
(https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/w_1600/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F190605114718-10-d-day-75-commemoration-0605.jpg)
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/NINTCHDBPICT000494248075.jpg?strip=all&w=960)
(https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/w_1600/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F190605112059-05-d-day-75-commemoration-0605.jpg)
(https://www.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article16260551.ece/ALTERNATES/s510b/0_FRANCE-HISTORY-WWII-DDAY-ANNIVERSARY.jpg)
Something special about Market-Garden commemorations in Batavian lands this year?
Yes, D-Day 75th anniversary. Pretty huge here, like 5 years ago for the 70th anniversary. Except it started yesterday.
Some good anecdotes from people who were there :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48504300
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 05, 2019, 08:25:54 AM
Something special about Market-Garden commemorations in Batavian lands this year?
Definitely, I intend to go and see a lot of it.
I was there 25 years ago when the veterans rolled into Nijmegen. First big city they entered, and they clearly weren't expecting thousands of people lining the streets. Not a dry eye to be seen.
Is that Mel Brooks in the 3rd picture? I know he's a WWII vet, but don't know if he was on D-Day...
No, it's not Brooks. He was in the 78th ID according to Wikipedia, and that guy's wearing a 101st patch.
Love the old Airborne vet wearing his polished jump boots. I'm sure he's got some stories.
It's weird. When I was a kid WW2 vets were very common. Nearly everyone had someone in the family that fought in the war or otherwise contributed (though few talked much about it). They were almost all retirees by then, but they were still quite visible. I image everyone on this board had the same experience. It's so weird that there are so few left, and that one day soon there will be nobody left.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 05, 2019, 04:50:14 PM
It's weird. When I was a kid WW2 vets were very common. Nearly everyone had someone in the family that fought in the war or otherwise contributed (though few talked much about it). They were almost all retirees by then, but they were still quite visible. I image everyone on this board had the same experience. It's so weird that there are so few left, and that one day soon there will be nobody left.
It's exactly the same distance in time from the end of WW2 to now, and from the end of the American Civil War to the start of WW2! - 74 years.
(1865 + 74 = 1939; 1945 + 74 = 2019)
Quote from: Razgovory on June 05, 2019, 04:50:14 PM
It's weird. When I was a kid WW2 vets were very common. Nearly everyone had someone in the family that fought in the war or otherwise contributed (though few talked much about it). They were almost all retirees by then, but they were still quite visible. I image everyone on this board had the same experience. It's so weird that there are so few left, and that one day soon there will be nobody left.
I also remember as a kid going to remembrance day ceremonies and there being some aged WWI vets present. They're of course now long gone.
I didn't meet my first WWII vet until fairly recently, when I moved to Iowa from DC.
You've lived in Iowa since at least 2003, right?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 05, 2019, 05:39:02 PM
You've lived in Iowa since at least 2003, right?
I've kind of lost track.
I once read that big wars tend to occur after everyone from the last big war is dead. Hopefully that's not true.
I've been watching some of the coverage of events and I especially like seeing and hearing what the vets have to say. It can be quite emotional hearing them talk about it. My father, his two brothers and two of my great uncles were in different areas, Europe and Pacific. They talked about their experiences, and they all had some tough stories. I was glad they did talk about it, because I felt it was important to know what they went through and I figured it helped them by talking, not bottling things up. Some of their stories would have made John Wayne cringe to re-enact it in movie scenes. I wrote down and saved their stories. Sadly, they're all gone now.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 05, 2019, 06:10:45 PM
I once read that big wars tend to occur after everyone from the last big war is dead. Hopefully that's not true.
Major wars are generally more frequent than that, with some wiggle room depending on how you define a "big war".
I grew up fascinated by my grandparents' and their generation's WW2 stories. Granted, almost all of them were civilians, teenagers, or young adults. It is weird to think this generation is now almost entirely gone.
As I keep saying, it cannot be entirely a coincidence that as they are completely removed from society by death and old age, belligerence in the world grows.
Quote from: dps on June 06, 2019, 12:05:32 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 05, 2019, 06:10:45 PM
I once read that big wars tend to occur after everyone from the last big war is dead. Hopefully that's not true.
Major wars are generally more frequent than that, with some wiggle room depending on how you define a "big war".
Wiggle wiggle?
I recall when Argentina invaded the Falklands back in 1983; there was animated discussion on the factory floor where I was working at the time. All the young guys were livid and wanted the Argentinians thrown out, they didn't even stop to think about the difficulties. Meanwhile all the old dudes, WW2 veterans, stroked their chins and deliberated carefully....."...I don't know, war is a nasty business...".
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 06, 2019, 01:12:58 AM
I recall when Argentina invaded the Falklands back in 1983;
OK Tim.
*cough cough* er 1982 :Embarrass:
Quote from: Razgovory on June 05, 2019, 06:10:45 PM
I once read that big wars tend to occur after everyone from the last big war is dead. Hopefully that's not true.
Things are certainly heading in that direction.
Shocking how a century after the end of WW1 we are repeating the same mistakes.
Well. No one, or at least very few, run around and want a nice cleansing war to teach the young ones important life lessons. So no, we are not doing the same mistake as in WW1, you would have more luck comparing to WW2.
I'm trying to think of a single mistake of WWI we're repeating.
The real life stories I heard from people who actually experienced WWII were all variations of "Japs were monsters" and "we were lucky enough to escape".
Quote from: Threviel on June 06, 2019, 01:40:41 AM
Well. No one, or at least very few, run around and want a nice cleansing war to teach the young ones important life lessons. So no, we are not doing the same mistake as in WW1, you would have more luck comparing to WW2.
You havent been in the UK in recent years then?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2019, 01:47:41 AM
I'm trying to think of a single mistake of WWI we're repeating.
The rise of Nationalism.
(https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/2014/AarsmanCollectie/media/Aarsman0506.jpg)
(https://c0.thejournal.ie/media/2019/06/d-day-75th-anniversary-4-752x501.jpg)
(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/06/05/ap_19156578840853-81c331673f40f341015f1b18fed3d2b5a3620e6b.jpg)
The look of a 97 year old veteran who has seen it all :cool:
Sobering that in the 75th anniversary year we're retreating from Europe, largely motivated by a fear of 'foreigners' and an general ignorance of what the EU is.
There will be trouble ahead.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2019, 01:47:41 AM
I'm trying to think of a single mistake of WWI we're repeating.
Some breakdown in trade is happening. But it's a pretty inapt comparison, I think.
Yeah, it's more about repeating the mistakes of the between-the-wars era.
Quote from: mongers on June 06, 2019, 07:28:14 AM
Sobering that in the 75th anniversary year we're retreating from Europe, largely motivated by a fear of 'foreigners' and an general ignorance of what the EU is.
There will be trouble ahead.
September 1st 2039
In the Westerplatte or Danzig declaration, following secret negotiations at Gleiwitz, the UK joins back the EU. :P
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2019, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2019, 01:47:41 AM
I'm trying to think of a single mistake of WWI we're repeating.
Some breakdown in trade is happening. But it's a pretty inapt comparison, I think.
Oh, I thought of another one: Militarization.
The Military Industrial Complex has been around since Eisenhower.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
The Military Industrial Complex has been around since Eisenhower.
Well at least that combination of words describing it has been. Not sure if that is the same thing as its existence.
We don't understand or care about squabbles in the Balkans.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2019, 01:47:41 AM
I'm trying to think of a single mistake of WWI we're repeating.
You are not paying attention
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2019, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2019, 01:47:41 AM
I'm trying to think of a single mistake of WWI we're repeating.
Some breakdown in trade is happening. But it's a pretty inapt comparison, I think.
You are correct in that rather than being isolationist the US has gone full blown bat shit crazy.
You're paying too much attention.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 06, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
The Military Industrial Complex has been around since Eisenhower.
Cool story. Perhaps you can find a proper place to share it next time.
I'd say that Chinese president Xi Jinping is doing a decent Kaiser Wilhelm II impression. The one power that should be most satisfied with the wold is doing its best to destabilize the world and pick fights.
I don't think that there is a Fin de Siecle equivalent of Trump. Maybe he's Wilhelm II as well, except dumber and less articulate.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZkcCKnn.jpg)
:)
To be fair, without Germans there wouldn't have been a D-Day. :P
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
That's not what the tweet says, though. And arguing that "[w]hich side they were on is irrelevant" makes a mockery of the idea that taking the correct side on critical issues is important. It is very relevant indeed "which side they were on" in WW2.
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
That's not what the tweet says, though. And arguing that "[w]hich side they were on is irrelevant" makes a mockery of the idea that taking the correct side on critical issues is important. It is very relevant indeed "which side they were on" in WW2.
That's the sort of attitude that leads to hostility never ending
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
That's not what the tweet says, though. And arguing that "[w]hich side they were on is irrelevant" makes a mockery of the idea that taking the correct side on critical issues is important. It is very relevant indeed "which side they were on" in WW2.
That's the sort of attitude that leads to hostility never ending
Not if all parties agree, and postwar Germany has done a good job at that.
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
That's not what the tweet says, though. And arguing that "[w]hich side they were on is irrelevant" makes a mockery of the idea that taking the correct side on critical issues is important. It is very relevant indeed "which side they were on" in WW2.
Well the actual tweet (now apparently deleted) was a video. The clip I just saw had the queen starting shaking the hand of the woman before Merkel hand and then it ends on her shaking Merkel's hand.
It was a funny mishap by whoever tweets on that account, no more no less.
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
That's not what the tweet says, though. And arguing that "[w]hich side they were on is irrelevant" makes a mockery of the idea that taking the correct side on critical issues is important. It is very relevant indeed "which side they were on" in WW2.
That's the sort of attitude that leads to hostility never ending
Quite untrue. It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.
Quote from: Zanza on June 09, 2019, 12:38:17 PM
It was a funny mishap by whoever tweets on that account, no more no less.
Agreed. Trump's use of D-Day as an example of American-German cooperation was a lot funnier, but this was pretty funny. Absent the tweet, the shaking of hands was quite ordinary, and Merkel is, I am sure, as happy about the ultimate results of D-Day as is Elizabeth II or anyone else there.
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2019, 07:45:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
All those nations suffered through the war. Which side they were on is irrelevant
That's not what the tweet says, though. And arguing that "[w]hich side they were on is irrelevant" makes a mockery of the idea that taking the correct side on critical issues is important. It is very relevant indeed "which side they were on" in WW2.
That's the sort of attitude that leads to hostility never ending
Quite untrue. It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.
Well, actually, Tyr's attitude only leads to hostility never ending if you believe that stupidity inevitably leads to hostility.
I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.
I would like to see that, somehow with the addition of May walking into the shot like in her meme.
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.
The little 3?
History repeats itself, the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce?
Last time we sent a physical cripple to the meeting, this time a mental cripple.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 10, 2019, 11:43:09 AM
Last time we sent a physical cripple to the meeting, this time a mental cripple.
That's kind of cruel, but it's funny 'cause it's true.
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.
I imagine bringing in Putin to honor Russian contributions to D-day would not go well.
Merkel could have been said to represent German opposition to Hitler...would they count as falling under the "Allies"? (many would likely say the French resistance did).
And I would note on the Putin invitation question, that I don't think we were invited to the Victory Day parade in Moscow this year. :sleep:
Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.
We should save that for when Boris is PM. :P
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.
QuoteQuite untrue. It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.
Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?
Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 AM
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.
QuoteQuite untrue. It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.
Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?
I think the Germans have shown great collective wisdom and earnestness in denouncing their Nazi years, in stark contrast of pretty much any other nation ever when it comes to that or similar involvements.
So, most certainly, present Germans should not get any flak for those years.
On the other hand, I am reluctant to give the German soldiers a blanket free pass. Sure, they didn't have a choice. But neither did the Italians, yet, their performance and moral properly reflected a reluctant army of conquest.
You don't put in a performance like the Wehrmacht if you don't agree with what you are doing.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--lVqByAZN--/c_fit,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/n344363pycgxfoubtqgt.jpg)
I can tell Don Draper was still at the farm when that was done.
Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 AM
Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?
I am sure most ordinary Germans at the time said things like "I am no Hitler supporter, but I do support most of his policies..."
And while I don't think most ordinary Germans had a "choice", they do have to own their acquiescence to the regime, especially at points when the regime was not as firmly in control as it eventually became - the Nazis were a political party, its not like they were a foreign occupying power.
Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 AM
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.
QuoteQuite untrue. It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.
Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?
IIRC "I only followed orders" hasn't been universally accepted as an excuse.
The Nazis were democratically elected after all. It seems to be reasonably easy to get a plurality of people to support heinous policies; all you need is a comprehensive fuck-up by the established political elite and the reprehensibles can move in.
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are now well understood and had circumstances been different the same cancer could well have infected any of us.
In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 14, 2019, 01:30:45 AM
The Nazis were democratically elected after all. It seems to be reasonably easy to get a plurality of people to support heinous policies; all you need is a comprehensive fuck-up by the established political elite and the reprehensibles can move in.
Hmm..
This rings a bell. :hmm::P
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.
In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
It's the snazzy uniforms, isn't it?
Nationalism happened. Punch was served.
Dropping Anjin-san?
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.
In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it. That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement. Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate. Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.
Quote from: dps on June 14, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.
In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it. That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement. Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate. Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.
You have to remember that you are talking to Tyr. To him, like the Trumpeters, facts that disagree with actual facts are merely alternative facts. Trump, like Tyr, appears genuinely unaware that Germany fought
against the UK and the US in WW2, no matter what it did later.
QuoteYou have to remember that you are talking to Tyr. To him, like the Trumpeters, facts that disagree with actual facts are merely alternative facts. Trump, like Tyr, appears genuinely unaware that Germany fought against the UK and the US in WW2, no matter what it did later.
Nonsense.
We all know WW2 invovled Germany, the UK and France against the African Alliance :rolleyes:
Quote from: dps on June 14, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.
In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it. That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement. Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate. Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.
Nobody says that though. Just a screengrab of a video that has been mistitled.
Plenty of people however do bitch about German involvement in remembrance ceremonies.
Quote from: Tyr on June 15, 2019, 07:00:06 AM
QuoteYou have to remember that you are talking to Tyr. To him, like the Trumpeters, facts that disagree with actual facts are merely alternative facts. Trump, like Tyr, appears genuinely unaware that Germany fought against the UK and the US in WW2, no matter what it did later.
Nonsense.
We all know WW2 invovled Germany, the UK and France against the African Alliance :rolleyes:
Quote from: dps on June 14, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.
In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it. That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement. Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate. Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.
Nobody says that though. Just a screengrab of a video that has been mistitled.
"Which side they were on is irrelevant." OK, so maybe you don't disagree with historical fact, you just don't think they matter.
Going back to the original picture, Merkel and Germany 'deserve' to be there by dint of being the ones who've learnt the most from WW2, don't stoke nationalism and don't consort with dictators.
Other in that photo, less so.
Time to resurrect this.
The Liberation of Paris started this day in 1944, coinciding with the end of Operation Bagration in the east.
The Jerries are well and truly fucked
(https://www.enemyinmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Weeping_Parisian-620x501.jpg)
For some reason I thought Bagration was in June.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2019, 11:45:16 AM
For some reason I thought Bagration was in June.
The operation lasted about 2 months, till the Germans were pushed back to the Vistula.
Battle of the Falaise Pocket ends 21 August 1944
Eighty years ago on this day, Germany invaded Poland and started World War II in Europe.
Any cake left?
(https://comb.io/bAWNyR.gif)
New documentary (in German, English closed captions available):
https://youtu.be/8vdXgdn_ilk
"Poland 39 - How German Soldiers Became Murderers"
Quote from: Zanza on September 01, 2019, 12:46:58 AM
Eighty years ago on this day, Germany invaded Poland and started World War II in Europe.
God, there are barely any people left who fought in it. My uncle Warn fought in the navy during the war, and he died last year. He was last surviving member of his graduating class. I can't help but think that recent surge of Right-wing extremism is at least partially linked to the fact there aren't many people left to remind us what a disaster it was. We, as in the West, didn't set up the current world system because we all fell in love with each other. We set it up because the last system resulted in two global catastrophes and a third one could throw the world into a global dark age. The EU was one of the crowning achievements of the post-war world and yet Britain withdrawing back into splendid isolation. What a fucking disgrace.
Out on the heath today, while it is still (somewhat) in bloom.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vv768hn.jpg?1)
It also happens to be Drop Zone Y for 1st Airborne headed for Arnhem.
(https://i.imgur.com/AvF4qLI.jpg?1)
A new monument was about to be installed for the upcoming events.
(https://i.imgur.com/302RUKS.jpg?1)
Is tromping around Market Garden set up well for visitors?
There are small markers and monuments all over the place. And about four or five museums, as well as the bridges themselves, of course. You'd have to know where to look for the lesser known places, though. But yeah, for the visitor with an interest in the operation there's a lot to see.
QuoteREPORTER: Do you have a message for Poland on the 80th anniversary of World War 2?
TRUMP: "I do have a great message for Poland & we have Mike Pence, our vice president, is just about landing right now...I just want to congratulate Poland"
:wacko:
Congratulate them for...what? Still being around?
For being the first! That's always impressive.
Austria was first. :sleep:
Quote from: Syt on September 03, 2019, 02:51:33 PM
QuoteREPORTER: Do you have a message for Poland on the 80th anniversary of World War 2?
TRUMP: "I do have a great message for Poland & we have Mike Pence, our vice president, is just about landing right now...I just want to congratulate Poland"
:wacko:
That's an extremely irresponsible question from the reporter.
Quote from: The Brain on September 03, 2019, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 03, 2019, 02:51:33 PM
QuoteREPORTER: Do you have a message for Poland on the 80th anniversary of World War 2?
TRUMP: "I do have a great message for Poland & we have Mike Pence, our vice president, is just about landing right now...I just want to congratulate Poland"
:wacko:
That's an extremely irresponsible question from the reporter.
:lol:
Quote from: The Brain on September 03, 2019, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 03, 2019, 02:51:33 PM
QuoteREPORTER: Do you have a message for Poland on the 80th anniversary of World War 2?
TRUMP: "I do have a great message for Poland & we have Mike Pence, our vice president, is just about landing right now...I just want to congratulate Poland"
:wacko:
That's an extremely irresponsible question from the reporter.
He thought he'd get a terrible response and he was right.
Trying to get your President to say dumb shit is irresponsible.
wtf? You think "do you have a message" is a gotcha question? :huh:
Over 1000 paratroopers landed near my home town today. Of course, they changed the schedule and I'm still in Germany :rolleyes:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbSR0wYBg_lmZBeqw2zqJYk-_QPvytVR7qp_JI2mvTx9WgIJ8THA)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQuX4ijcTwSH_B6zmyUf9hz2tDT3WuRDKMQ43JJzvZXSVcswSWpPw)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcf-pKaZnWBJNTa7vnxVkum7xkYtU4YnS2TKbMcWK9u3ivh2pfOg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTw3hhj2ayBtGh-jw19vxhAloV06r_8x-wahZmFeZ5LLRMh_wZAEw)
Quote from: Maladict on September 18, 2019, 10:56:40 AM
I'm still in Germany :rolleyes:
That's OK, they are not aware of the SS division in reserve nearby, they'll be held up until you arrive.
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2019, 11:02:02 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 18, 2019, 10:56:40 AM
I'm still in Germany :rolleyes:
That's OK, they are not aware of the SS division in reserve nearby, they'll be held up until you arrive.
:lol:
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2019, 11:02:02 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 18, 2019, 10:56:40 AM
I'm still in Germany :rolleyes:
That's OK, they are not aware of the SS division in reserve nearby, they'll be held up until you arrive.
They may not have been spotted. All I'm hearing here is something about early snow.
98 year old vet does it again
(https://nos.nl/data/image/2019/09/19/578564/xxl.jpg)
(https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/qJ5PSzQlchBpS0e2YEYT-VK9PyU=/1200x0/filters:quality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/QAXDLOXDMZAJZCMR32PE7YRC3E.jpg)
I'll forgive him the white socks, this one time
Can you reed the shoulder patch? My eyes aren't good enough.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 19, 2019, 04:40:18 PM
Can you reed the shoulder patch? My eyes aren't good enough.
The top one has "Geronimo" underneath.
Can't read the lower one.
XXX Corps is rolling down Hell's Highway, I hope to catch them this weekend.
Infighting among the organizers has caused a split, so there are now two columns taking different routes :bleeding:
(https://images1.persgroep.net/rcs/Upy3ryYs4OoA4jqgQLoPrd2eDKA/diocontent/131006055/_fitwidth/694/?appId=21791a8992982cd8da851550a453bd7f&quality=0.9)
(https://i.imgur.com/4RXtHtS.jpg)
(https://112nijmegennieuws.nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/09/DSC_0376.jpg)
Definitely a couple of bridges too far for this one.
What happened there?
Ran into some Wehrmacht reenactors.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 20, 2019, 06:07:21 AM
Ran into some Wehrmacht reenactors.
Could be worse, as in SS reenactors.
Quote from: Tyr on September 20, 2019, 04:48:16 AM
What happened there?
It just caught fire while moving with the column.
Saw reenactors cross the river at Nijmegen today, I'm assuming while saying their hail Mary's.
Pretty cool sight, I'll post pics when I get home.
A look at the historical accuracy of the movie A Bridge Too Far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjbEdZyEiMA
Quote from: Syt on September 21, 2019, 08:04:11 AM
A look at the historical accuracy of the movie A Bridge Too Far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjbEdZyEiMA
Thanks. Time to watch it again :cool:
Some pictures from Saturday's events in and around Arnhem.
Over 100,000 people showed up to see yet more air drops on the heath.
(https://nos.nl/data/image/2019/09/21/578962/2048x1152.jpg)
Prince Charles and a glider vet inside a Horsa replica:
(https://www.dutchnews.nl/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/prince-charles-560x373.jpg)
John Frost Bridge, Arnhem:
(https://guernseypress.com/resizer/-ssHdAiInjH4T5dN0Z9sGZ77hwk=/1000x0/filters:quality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-guernseypress-mna.s3.amazonaws.com/public/MEERDDGCSZETFJR32URUULX6QA.jpg)
Oosterbeek cemetery
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article20145520.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_Operation-Market-Garden-75th-anniversary-commemorations.jpg)
Bulge, 75th anniversary
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/battle-of-the-bulge-75th-anniversary-marked-world-war-ii-allies-germany-today-2019-12-16/
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2019/12/15/PLOU/cbf5e863-1bce-4d2c-a160-442d14135817-AF5I7606.jpg?width=1080&quality=50)
(https://localtvwiti.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/gettyimages-1194282787.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&w=770)
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.611041.1576276988!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/image.jpg)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/army-facebook-post-featuring-nazi-war-criminal-sparks-pushback-n1103041
QuoteArmy Facebook post featuring Nazi war criminal sparks pushback
"I am dumbfounded by the decision to prominently display a Nazi on military social media on the 75th anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge," an observer said.
My ad blocker won't read me read it, but generally I think the taboo on any kind of humanizing of nazis is getting in the way of meaningful remembrance, now that eye witnesses are starting to fade away.
QuotePeiper, who led thousands of men in Germany's last major offensive, was convicted of war crimes for a massacre of U.S. prisoners of war during the battle.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think war criminals convicted of killing US prisoners should not appear on a US military Facebook page, it seems in bad taste.
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
QuotePeiper, who led thousands of men in Germany's last major offensive, was convicted of war crimes for a massacre of U.S. prisoners of war during the battle.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think war criminals convicted of killing US prisoners should not appear on a US military Facebook page, it seems in bad taste.
Again without seeing the context, but displaying a photo of Peiper in an article on the Battle of the Bulge and/or the Malmedy massacre should not necessarily cause outrage.
edit: I've now seen the photo and FB post. I'm taking more offense to the badly written article than the photo.
Quote from: Maladict on December 17, 2019, 12:21:49 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
QuotePeiper, who led thousands of men in Germany's last major offensive, was convicted of war crimes for a massacre of U.S. prisoners of war during the battle.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think war criminals convicted of killing US prisoners should not appear on a US military Facebook page, it seems in bad taste.
Again without seeing the context, but displaying a photo of Peiper in an article on the Battle of the Bulge and/or the Malmedy massacre should not necessarily cause outrage.
edit: I've now seen the photo and FB post. I'm taking more offense to the badly written article than the photo.
They could of used the real photo instead of one colorized in a glamour shot style by a fan on deviantart.
He would have been hung if it were not for Joseph McCarthy. Fortunately the French fixed that little problem.
Ethiopia was 35, China (Manchuria) was 31.
That's why.
Also China lasted the war and was a core part of the whole of WW2. You know, it's why they were first to sign the UN charter.
They were two separate wars until Japan attacked the US and Western colonies.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 17, 2019, 09:14:44 PM
They were two separate wars until Japan attacked the US and Western colonies.
That's not exactly an argument in favor of Ethiopia 1st.
No. I was mistaken about when the Sino-Japanese war began.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 17, 2019, 07:40:58 PM
Also China lasted the war and was a core part of the whole of WW2. You know, it's why they were first to sign the UN charter.
But not long after the war...well at least the China that signed the UN charter.
Though I don't think it really go going until 1937, despite the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931. That was sort of the warm up, the Asian version of the Spanish Civil War.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 17, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: Maladict on December 17, 2019, 12:21:49 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
QuotePeiper, who led thousands of men in Germany's last major offensive, was convicted of war crimes for a massacre of U.S. prisoners of war during the battle.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think war criminals convicted of killing US prisoners should not appear on a US military Facebook page, it seems in bad taste.
Again without seeing the context, but displaying a photo of Peiper in an article on the Battle of the Bulge and/or the Malmedy massacre should not necessarily cause outrage.
edit: I've now seen the photo and FB post. I'm taking more offense to the badly written article than the photo.
They could of used the real photo instead of one colorized in a glamour shot style by a fan on deviantart.
Yes definitely, I'll give you that. Does fit with the general fanboi style of that FB account, though.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2019, 09:33:19 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 17, 2019, 07:40:58 PM
Also China lasted the war and was a core part of the whole of WW2. You know, it's why they were first to sign the UN charter.
But not long after the war...well at least the China that signed the UN charter.
Though I don't think it really go going until 1937, despite the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931. That was sort of the warm up, the Asian version of the Spanish Civil War.
Yeah. Agreed, I mean 1937 when Japan fully invades China.
75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, tomorrow
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/0b903a8e984ad9a159ed2347924ce290d602429b-800x530.jpg)
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/607cbe3d57725383194fbedda1927454803d2318-800x533.jpg)
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/0ef735ce49a11a23071fa6a5807d005ad2bcde29-800x600.jpg)
Quote from: Maladict on January 26, 2020, 12:09:20 PM
75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, tomorrow
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/0b903a8e984ad9a159ed2347924ce290d602429b-800x530.jpg)
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/607cbe3d57725383194fbedda1927454803d2318-800x533.jpg)
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/0ef735ce49a11a23071fa6a5807d005ad2bcde29-800x600.jpg)
Still an emotional event even after all these years.
Covid is going to shit all over the VE-Day events, but Remembrance Day was observed yesterday on deserted squares.
(https://images1.persgroep.net/rcs/zsKmRquYy9Osf2ppuKMwRXWKW98/diocontent/170245149/_fitwidth/1240?appId=93a17a8fd81db0de025c8abd1cca1279&quality=0.9)
(https://showbizznetwork.nl/resize/825x464/uploads/2020/05/05/nederland-massaal-voor-de-tv-voor-dodenherdenking.png)
(https://images0.persgroep.net/rcs/0CB-DgLWbAXeefwI8xF23C37lH4/diocontent/170242478/_fitwidth/694/?appId=21791a8992982cd8da851550a453bd7f&quality=0.8)
(https://www.rtvseaport.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/herdenking1.jpg)
Even the pizza delivery guys remembered, which is encouraging.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXMUEOwXsAoxFDp?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXP69mkWkAETvFr?format=jpg&name=small)
Thats one positive outcome of this corona mess really.
You just know the VE day commemorations in the UK were going to be a perfect example of the sort of bollocks that the war was about defeating. All union flags and victorious gloating about England 2-0 Germany.
Germany had a very subdued remembrance day today, although it was a public holiday in Berlin today (unlike other years).
The heads of our five constitutional institutions (president, both chambers of parliament, government, constitutional court) put down wreaths at Neue Wache in central Berlin.
(https://m.dw.com/image/53370253_403.jpg)
Trump sent a special message to Austria to mark the anniversary: https://twitter.com/usembvienna/status/1258713405772500992?s=20
Quote from: Syt on May 08, 2020, 10:14:19 AM
Trump sent a special message to Austria to mark the anniversary: https://twitter.com/usembvienna/status/1258713405772500992?s=20
I'm not watching Trump. Did he do a knoife joke?
Quote from: The Brain on May 08, 2020, 10:34:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 08, 2020, 10:14:19 AM
Trump sent a special message to Austria to mark the anniversary: https://twitter.com/usembvienna/status/1258713405772500992?s=20
I'm not watching Trump. Did he do a knoife joke?
No, he did a joke about how US-European relations are now better than they've ever been.
I'm not sure the Austrians will get the joke.
Let's put another shrimp on the barbie!
Yep, quiet celebrations of the 75th. A ceremony in Washington at the WW2 memorial, with about ten vets, maybe more. I saw some video of London with people doing WW2 songs, small gatherings but staying apart. A couple of UK veterans. Always amazed to see these vets, who are in their 90s and some over 100. Queen Elizabeth gave a speech at the same day and time, 75 years later, as her father King George VI did after the war.
Interesting piece on VE day in Dublin - involving two future taoiseachs:
QuoteVE Day 75: Haughey, FitzGerald and that 'Irish Times' front page
Trinity students' provocative decision to raise the Union flag led to riotous scenes
Thu, May 7, 2020, 21:34 Updated: Fri, May 8, 2020, 07:42
Ronan McGreevy
(https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.4247915.1588883756!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg)
Then Irish Times editor RM Smyllie got his revenge on the Irish government censors by rearranging the front page of the newspaper to make a V for victory sign.
At 1.25pm on May 7th, 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allies in the town of Rheims in France, the headquarters of Allied supreme commander Dwight D Eisenhower.
The second World War in Europe was over. It has lasted 2,294 days and left much of the continent in ruins.
The news was greeted with jubilation across the world and even with some relief in vanquished Germany. In London people congregated in Piccadilly Circus and danced around the Eros fountain. Bonfires were lit along the River Thames that evening. Prime Minister Winston Churchill declared that the following day would be Victory in Europe (VE) Day.
New York's Times Square was filled with hundreds of thousands of people and on the Hudson River liners and tugs sounded their horns.
The news reached Ireland at 2pm via BBC radio. By 3pm students at Trinity College Dublin (TCD) climbed on to the roof of the building and raised the flags of the victors, the hammer and sickle of the Soviet Union, the French tricolour and at the top, and largest of all, the Union flag. Underneath them, the Irish tricolour was at the bottom of the mast trailing on the floor of the roof.
The flag-raising ceremony attracted thousands of onlookers to College Green. Carried away with the exuberance of it all, some of the students on the roof started singing God Save the King and Rule Britannia.
The four flags were taken down after a while and replaced with the Stars and Stripes. The students on the roof burned the Irish tricolour and threw it on to the lawn beneath.
News of the burning spread across the city. At the time TCD was regarded as a bastion of "west Brit" sentiment and of Protestantism, not helped by the prohibition on Catholics going to the college by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin Dr John Charles McQuaid.
University College Dublin (UCD), then based at Earlsfort Terrace, was its mirror opposite. The overwhelming majority of its students were from a nationalist and Catholic background.
Counter demonstration
Among them was an 18-year-old commerce student from Donnycarney called Charles J Haughey who had won a scholarship to UCD. Haughey was also a part-time second lieutenant in the reserve forces during the Emergency years. The platoon he set up was named "Haughey's fusiliers".
Haughey is alleged to have been the ringleader of a counter demonstration which began in Middle Abbey Street at 8pm that evening. On their way to the meeting, they tore down a Union flag hanging on a lamppost at the bottom of Grafton Street and set it alight.
After congregating in Middle Abbey Street, the mob then marched over O'Connell Bridge, breaking windows in the offices of The Irish Times in Fleet Street as they passed, the paper perceived to be pro-British.
The Irish Times reported that the crowd which descended on Trinity were led by a "young man waving a large tricolour hoisted on the shoulders of his comrades" - since identified by some of his friends as Haughey.
The gates of Trinity College were closed so the group tried to scale the railings of the university at which point they were set upon by gardaí who baton charged them and split more than a few heads. A dozen protesters were taken to hospital.
(https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.4247917!/image/image.jpg)
The edition of The Irish Times published on May 8th, 1945, with the story of the Trinity riots headlined 'Baton Charges in Dublin' next to the 'V for victory' picture arrangement. The edition of The Irish Times published on May 8th, 1945, with the story of the Trinity riots headlined 'Baton Charges in Dublin' next to the 'V for victory' picture arrangement.
The mob dispersed down College Green and attacked the doors of the Wicklow Hotel shouting "give us the west Britons" and "put out the traitors".
One of their number told The Irish Times: "Trinity has insulted the country by burning the Tricolour. We don't mind Trinity flying the Union Jack because we all know the outlook of these people, but what we do object is to the flying of a number of Irish flags insultingly on the bottom".
FitzGerald versus Haughey
According to Professor Gary Murphy of DCU who is familiar with the Haughey archive there is nothing specific in the papers relating to the VE incident beyond a cryptic line in a letter to his personal friend and Gate Theatre co-founder Micheál MacLiammóir just over 25 years later on September 22nd, 1970 when Haughey was on trial for his alleged role in arms importation. In turning down an invitation to dinner with MacLiammóir and his partner Hilton Edwards because of the trial, Haughey said "I have been dining out on the Trinity incident myself - suitably embellished of course".
One of the eyewitnesses to the events at Trinity College was Garret FitzGerald, another future taoiseach who would become Haughey's long-time rival. He was in town celebrating VE Day when he heard about what was going on in College Green. He recalled Haughey escaping from gardaí by "jumping over bicycles and going up Trinity Street. My views and his views would have been different. I was strongly pro-Allied".
Contrary to what has been reported since, Haughey never did get to the top of Trinity to run the tricolour up the flagpole. Contemporary newspaper reports suggest that attempts by other students to storm the college were rebuffed successfully by gardaí.
The story made the front page of most Irish newspapers including The Irish Times.
The edition of The Irish Times published on May 8th, 1945 proved to be one of the celebrated in the history of the newspaper.
The editor Bertie Smyllie was strongly pro-British and bridled against the strict Irish government censorship of newspapers, especially The Irish Times which was minutely scrutinised by censors.
He got his revenge by rearranging the front page of the newspaper to make a V for victory sign.
"There was nothing the censor could do about it," wrote Tony Gray, then a junior leader writer in the paper, in his book, Mr Smyllie, Sir. "In the final moment of victory, Smyllie had played the trump card."
(https://i.redd.it/27dvkleymqx41.jpg)
Good stuff
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-52949391/d-day-anniversary-emotional-surprise-for-veteran-in-lockdown