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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 11:03:06 AM

Title: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
Like most people, I've dealt with a lot of disappointments, pain, and difficulties. During each of these times, my mother's response has always been, "Well, these things happen for a reason." Her other stock response is: "It just wasn't meant to be."

Now, you all know that I'm a fairly spiritual person, but I don't buy into the above philosophies. I don't think that things happen for a reason - at least not some global, over-reaching reason that I just can't fathom right then that will late make my life better. I also don't buy into the whole "it wasn't meant to be."

I believe that things either happen or don't, positive or negative, because of a series of events seen and unseen that have no bearing on some Master Plan for life. What ends up happening after that, again good or bad, is a matter of decisions made, not some reward for getting through the bad, or punishment for the good.

What do you believe?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 11:09:27 AM
Things do not really happen for reason.  Heck nothing happens for a reason, life is empty and meaningless objectively.

But wherever you are in your life you got there because of all the things that happened before so I act as if everything happens for a reason and believe it on a practical level.  When I look back over my life it is amazing all the things that had to happen to get to where I am today.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: ulmont on January 11, 2013, 11:26:38 AM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
What do you believe?

Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Brazen on January 11, 2013, 11:29:38 AM
Nothing happens for a reason, humans just like to see patterns in things. Which is why horoscopes are still such big business in the 21st century.

The lottery numbers this week are equally likely to be 1,2,3,4,5,6 as any other combination of 6, but would you select them?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: HVC on January 11, 2013, 11:33:55 AM
Things happen because of the choices we make, usually, or just "bad luck". Predestination is just a Protestant lie :P
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 11:34:28 AM
Quote from: Brazen on January 11, 2013, 11:29:38 AM
Nothing happens for a reason, humans just like to see patterns in things.

Humans cannot help but see patterns in things.  I think it is important to embrace this and use it to your advantage as much as you can.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 11:43:23 AM
I keep telling myself that nothing happens for a reason ... so I can eat as many chips as I like and not exercise because, you know.   :P

But seriously ... no, there is no overarching "reasons" for things.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 11:52:02 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 11:43:23 AM
I keep telling myself that nothing happens for a reason ... so I can eat as many chips as I like and not exercise because, you know.   :P

But seriously ... no, there is no overarching "reasons" for things.

Well yeah laws of cause and effect are still around :P

But it was not like your dog was destined to be run over by the truck so you could end up meeting your future spouse at the pound adopting your next pet.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 11:56:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 11:52:02 AM

Well yeah laws of cause and effect are still around :P


CURSES!  :frusty: Now my day is ruined.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 12:12:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 11:52:02 AM

Well yeah laws of cause and effect are still around :P

But it was not like your dog was destined to be run over by the truck so you could end up meeting your future spouse at the pound adopting your next pet.

An example: I lost my son in November 1997. My mother's response was, "Everything happens for a reason." When I was 20 weeks pregnant with Riley, I had an ultrasound to make sure that the same problem wasn't happening. It was. Were it not for losing Ian, I wouldn't have had the ultrasound and Riley wouldn't have survived. My mom said, "See? I told you. Everything happens for a reason."

Had Ian survived, I wouldn't have had Riley. I was stopping at four kids. One does not lead to the other. Yes, I adore my daughter, but I would have adored my son, too. It seems bizarre to think that a child dying "happens for a reason", and yet Mom wasn't the only one who said that.

How does anyone think that idea helps? I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 12:15:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 12:12:19 PM
Had Ian survived, I wouldn't have had Riley. I was stopping at four kids. One does not lead to the other.

Well if Ian surviving would have meant no Riley than it is just a fact that Riley would never have existed if things had gone differently.  I am not sure why one would not lead to the other in this case.

QuoteHow does anyone think that idea helps? I just don't get it.

It is empowering and helps you appreciate how things turned out.  If every time shit happens you go all morbid and depressed that is not helping anything.  Far better to go forward with the mentality this might lead to something.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 11, 2013, 12:57:07 PM
The only thing that happens for a reason is Life Tries To Fuck You Every Chance It Gets.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 12:15:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 12:12:19 PM
Had Ian survived, I wouldn't have had Riley. I was stopping at four kids. One does not lead to the other.

Well if Ian surviving would have meant no Riley than it is just a fact that Riley would never have existed if things had gone differently.  I am not sure why one would not lead to the other in this case.

I mean that the fact that Ian's death led to Riley's survival does not lead to the assumption that "it happened for a reason".

Quote
QuoteHow does anyone think that idea helps? I just don't get it.

It is empowering and helps you appreciate how things turned out.  If every time shit happens you go all morbid and depressed that is not helping anything.  Far better to go forward with the mentality this might lead to something.

I understand that it's meant to be so, but in fact, it never feels like that. It seems to me that believing that life just happens the way that it happens - no recriminations, punishments, or other malevalant cause - would be far more comforting.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:18:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
Like most people, I've dealt with a lot of disappointments, pain, and difficulties. During each of these times, my mother's response has always been, "Well, these things happen for a reason." Her other stock response is: "It just wasn't meant to be."

Now, you all know that I'm a fairly spiritual person, but I don't buy into the above philosophies. I don't think that things happen for a reason - at least not some global, over-reaching reason that I just can't fathom right then that will late make my life better. I also don't buy into the whole "it wasn't meant to be."

I believe that things either happen or don't, positive or negative, because of a series of events seen and unseen that have no bearing on some Master Plan for life. What ends up happening after that, again good or bad, is a matter of decisions made, not some reward for getting through the bad, or punishment for the good.

What do you believe?

You are getting into magical thinking here. Things happen for real material reasons. There is not someone out there meant for you, things are not either meant to be or not meant to be they either are or the are no.

The only meaning in life is the meaning you make yourself and the only master plan is the one you make and implement yourself. Telling yourself that something isn't meant to be is a cop out and an excuse for not trying (or a way of avoiding dealing with your own inability to make that something happen).
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
"Things happen for a reason" is probably one of the laziest and dumbest things that lazy and dumb "spiritual" people come up with.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 01:22:09 PM
Good Job Meri, you managed to froth up the regular kooks. :(
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:22:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
"Things happen for a reason" is probably one of the laziest and dumbest things that lazy and dumb "spiritual" people come up with.

What is the smart and energetic way to handle things?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:18:55 PM
You are getting into magical thinking here. Things happen for real material reasons. There is not someone out there meant for you, things are not either meant to be or not meant to be they either are or the are no.

The only meaning in life is the meaning you make yourself and the only master plan is the one you make and implement yourself. Telling yourself that something isn't meant to be is a cop out and an excuse for not trying (or a way of avoiding dealing with your own inability to make that something happen).

Your theory works for the things that one has some control over. However, there are enough things that happen that people have no control over to make the second paragraph almost meaningless.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:23:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
I understand that it's meant to be so, but in fact, it never feels like that. It seems to me that believing that life just happens the way that it happens - no recriminations, punishments, or other malevalant cause - would be far more comforting.

Well then go with the latter thing.  It is not literally true that things happen for reason so no biggie.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:26:42 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:18:55 PM
The only meaning in life is the meaning you make yourself and the only master plan is the one you make and implement yourself. Telling yourself that something isn't meant to be is a cop out and an excuse for not trying (or a way of avoiding dealing with your own inability to make that something happen).

Yep.  Though usually when people say the 'things happen for a reason' thing it is AFTER shit went down.  Like after you worked your ass off and you failed anyway.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:27:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
"Things happen for a reason" is probably one of the laziest and dumbest things that lazy and dumb "spiritual" people come up with.

Except that I've known strident atheists who have said similar things. The statement isn't limited to the religious or spiritual. On the other hand, I've also known deeply spiritual people who don't buy the whole "for a reason" thing, either.

It doesn't appear to be limited in either direction.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:29:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:18:55 PM
You are getting into magical thinking here. Things happen for real material reasons. There is not someone out there meant for you, things are not either meant to be or not meant to be they either are or the are no.

The only meaning in life is the meaning you make yourself and the only master plan is the one you make and implement yourself. Telling yourself that something isn't meant to be is a cop out and an excuse for not trying (or a way of avoiding dealing with your own inability to make that something happen).

Your theory works for the things that one has some control over. However, there are enough things that happen that people have no control over to make the second paragraph almost meaningless.

You sound like you cant see a difference between "shit that happens" and "why stuff happens". There are lots of things in your life that you have no control over, that car coming down the road when you want to cross for example. I have no control over it, what I do have control over is when I choose to cross the road and if I choose to look both ways before doing so.

The car's movements have no meaning or purpose other than the meaning and purpose imbued into it by the driver. The universe isn't telling you anything, the universe isn't a person with a mind or anything like that.

I don't have control over the car, but I do have control over if I get hit by it or not.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 01:30:19 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:18:55 PM
You are getting into magical thinking here. Things happen for real material reasons. There is not someone out there meant for you, things are not either meant to be or not meant to be they either are or the are no.

The only meaning in life is the meaning you make yourself and the only master plan is the one you make and implement yourself. Telling yourself that something isn't meant to be is a cop out and an excuse for not trying (or a way of avoiding dealing with your own inability to make that something happen).

Your theory works for the things that one has some control over. However, there are enough things that happen that people have no control over to make the second paragraph almost meaningless.

It's funny, most people think they have much more control over their life then they actually do.  In fact, people have little control over their lives, but convince themselves they do to keep sane.  Realization that you have little control is not comforting, it is in fact terrifying.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 11, 2013, 01:30:46 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:29:39 PM
I don't have control over the car, but I do have control over if I get hit by it or not.

Keep thinking that, Mario Andretti.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: HVC on January 11, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
People like answers and absolution. "There was nothing you could do, it was meant to be" provides both. It's as simple as that. You never hear "congrats on the raise, it was meant to be" because for the good stuff people believe they had a hand in it. So if you control the good you most control the bad, unless an unknown forced it so. Voila absolution.

And even when people invoke god for the good (ie athletes and artists) its for the help god provided. God didn't actually make the good thing happen, that was still the person.

In closing people are self-absorbed assholes :D
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:27:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
"Things happen for a reason" is probably one of the laziest and dumbest things that lazy and dumb "spiritual" people come up with.

Except that I've known strident atheists who have said similar things. The statement isn't limited to the religious or spiritual. On the other hand, I've also known deeply spiritual people who don't buy the whole "for a reason" thing, either.

It doesn't appear to be limited in either direction.

Though, when us strident atheists say that something happens for a reason that reason is usually stuff like gravity or economics or psychology not karma or the will of god.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:29:39 PM
I don't have control over the car, but I do have control over if I get hit by it or not.

What if you are tied down in the middle of the road?

Anyway Meri knows the universe is not talking to her.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: HVC on January 11, 2013, 01:33:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:29:39 PM
I don't have control over the car, but I do have control over if I get hit by it or not.

What if you are tied down in the middle of the road?

Anyway Meri knows the universe is not talking to her.
Just her body :P
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:33:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Though, when us strident atheists say that something happens for a reason that reason is usually stuff like gravity or economics or psychology not karma or the will of god.

It depresses me that Atheists believe in wacky pseudoscience like Psychology and Economics. 
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:33:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Though, when us strident atheists say that something happens for a reason that reason is usually stuff like gravity or economics or psychology not karma or the will of god.

It depresses me that Atheists believe in wacky pseudoscience like Psychology and Economics.

I was going for three examples one where no person was involved, one where many people were involve and one where one person was involved. I agree, any system of explanation trying to explain human behavior can hardly be truly scientific. Unfortunately most things that happen that we think about are caused by other humans.

To put it bluntly Psychology and Economics don't have theories or laws (though they like to pretend they do) they just have lots of hypotheses and postulates.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.

Eh she is probably just saying that to avoid crushing depression if she is perpetually in financial trouble.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: The Brain on January 11, 2013, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.

You're on a mission from God?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 01:51:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 01:33:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Though, when us strident atheists say that something happens for a reason that reason is usually stuff like gravity or economics or psychology not karma or the will of god.

It depresses me that Atheists believe in wacky pseudoscience like Psychology and Economics.

Not me.  I use it against them on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:55:36 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:29:39 PM
You sound like you cant see a difference between "shit that happens" and "why stuff happens". There are lots of things in your life that you have no control over, that car coming down the road when you want to cross for example. I have no control over it, what I do have control over is when I choose to cross the road and if I choose to look both ways before doing so.

The car's movements have no meaning or purpose other than the meaning and purpose imbued into it by the driver. The universe isn't telling you anything, the universe isn't a person with a mind or anything like that.

I don't have control over the car, but I do have control over if I get hit by it or not.

But what about the things that you have no control over. Things like the death of a child, to go with the earlier example, or an illness.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: PDH on January 11, 2013, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 11, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
You never hear "congrats on the raise, it was meant to be" because for the good stuff people believe they had a hand in it.

Classic anthropology about magic.  It is a way of controlling the uncontrollable.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 11, 2013, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 11, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
You never hear "congrats on the raise, it was meant to be" because for the good stuff people believe they had a hand in it.

Classic anthropology about magic.  It is a way of controlling the uncontrollable.

It goes deeper then that.  People who don't believe in magic or gods still think they control the outcome of events at an unconscious level.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 02:03:56 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.

Reminds me of the joke of the old woman and the flood.

A river is overflowing its levees and flooding a neighborhood. An old woman is sitting on her front porch, watching the water rise when a neighbor comes by in his car and tells her she oughta' evacuate.

"Oh, the Lord will provide!" she responds, and the neighbors give up and move on.

The water continues to rise and the old woman goes up to her second floor, sitting at the window, the water lapping at the siding a couple of feet below the window sill. Two firefighters in a boat come by and beg the woman to get in the boat so that they can get her to safety.

"Oh, the Lord will provide!" she responds, and the firefighters give up and move on.

The water continues to rise and the old woman climbs up to the top of her roof where the National Guard flies over her with a helicopter. A soldier climbs down the ladder to save her, but the old woman refuses to leave. "The Lord will provide!" she says, and after a while, for his own safety, the soldier has to leave the woman behind to save himself.

The old woman, of course, dies, and when she arrives at the Pearly Gates, she cries to God, "Why didn't you provide?!" To which God replied, "What are you talking about, woman? I sent a car, a boat, and a helicopter! What more did you want from me?!"

:D
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 02:09:33 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 01:55:36 PM
But what about the things that you have no control over. Things like the death of a child, to go with the earlier example, or an illness.

First of all, those things happen for real reasons. Illnesses are not random, they have causes. If you are facing an issue you cannot prevent or mitigate then you have control over how you deal with the loss. There is still no meaning or reason here other than the strictly material causes and the meaning you put on those causes and effects. If it is too late to stop the car or get out of it's way appealing to god isn't going to do any good either.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: PDH on January 11, 2013, 02:12:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 11, 2013, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 11, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
You never hear "congrats on the raise, it was meant to be" because for the good stuff people believe they had a hand in it.

Classic anthropology about magic.  It is a way of controlling the uncontrollable.

It goes deeper then that.  People who don't believe in magic or gods still think they control the outcome of events at an unconscious level.

Many anthropologists say that everyone acts out magical ritual like that, even those who don't believe in magic per se.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.

Well, God did provide. :D
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: katmai on January 11, 2013, 02:16:21 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.

See, she had you for a reason.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Phillip V on January 11, 2013, 02:17:36 PM
I strongly avoid stock responses like "everything's gonna be alright" or "it was meant to be".
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 02:18:01 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 11, 2013, 02:16:21 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
My mom pulls that god will provide shit all the time. Every time she gets in a financial mess, which is always, she absolves herself of any responsibility and says she's trusting god to provide. God usually "provides" by someone stepping in and saving her ass. Used to be her dad. Now it's usually me.

See, she had you for a reason.

:lol:
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 02:33:14 PM
Reminds me of a story about a monk who had a beautiful and valuable ceramic tea pot. One day, a young novice was playing with the set and broke it.

He went to the monk and asked "why do people have to die?"

Monk replied with a spiel about how everything happens for a purpose, and has an allotted time; when it is time to die, you must die, and God has reasons for it - quoting from Ecclesiasties and the Book of Job.

The novice shook the fragments of the tea pot out of his sleeve and said "look master; it was the tea pot's time to die". 
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Maximus on January 11, 2013, 02:53:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 02:09:33 PM
First of all, those things happen for real reasons. Illnesses are not random, they have causes. If you are facing an issue you cannot prevent or mitigate then you have control over how you deal with the loss. There is still no meaning or reason here other than the strictly material causes and the meaning you put on those causes and effects. If it is too late to stop the car or get out of it's way appealing to god isn't going to do any good either.
Who are you arguing against?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 03:15:17 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 02:09:33 PM
First of all, those things happen for real reasons. Illnesses are not random, they have causes. If you are facing an issue you cannot prevent or mitigate then you have control over how you deal with the loss. There is still no meaning or reason here other than the strictly material causes and the meaning you put on those causes and effects. If it is too late to stop the car or get out of it's way appealing to god isn't going to do any good either.

You said:

Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:18:55 PM
Telling yourself that something isn't meant to be is a cop out and an excuse for not trying (or a way of avoiding dealing with your own inability to make that something happen).

This implies that you believe that those who say that something is meant to be is looking for an excuse for their own failings. An illness or sudden death isn't a person's failing. So your explanation doesn't work.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 05:50:23 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 11, 2013, 02:12:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 11, 2013, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 11, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
You never hear "congrats on the raise, it was meant to be" because for the good stuff people believe they had a hand in it.

Classic anthropology about magic.  It is a way of controlling the uncontrollable.

It goes deeper then that.  People who don't believe in magic or gods still think they control the outcome of events at an unconscious level.

Many anthropologists say that everyone acts out magical ritual like that, even those who don't believe in magic per se.

Exactly.  Which is why I find it interesting.  There was a study with dice done.  People who wanted a higher number threw the dice a little bit harder.  People who wanted a lower number threw the dice tended throw softer.  However, neither action could reliably cause the dice to fall a certain way, but people do it and they don't realize it.  They are trying to control things.  The truth is Viking and Marty and other atheists (and pretty much everyone else), are irrationally trying to control reality.  There is no difference between throwing the dice and saying a Hail Mary every time you throw them or blowing on the dice for good luck.  Except that  the rational atheist is in denial about it.

The sad truth is we have little control over our lives.  That doesn't mean that events are all random, it's just we don't have much control over it.  However, the illusion of control is vitally important to sanity.  If you come to believe you don't have much control you are very likely to suffer from anxiety and depression.  It is one of the curious ironies that to be sane you must be slightly delusional.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 06:16:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 03:15:17 PMAn illness or sudden death isn't a person's failing. So your explanation doesn't work.

Not getting treatment makes it work. You are bringing up a specific rare case of sudden death. But, even if the example is a meteor hitting earth we are doing something about it now. Finding out that it is going to hit tomorrow and we can't do anything about it doesn't mean that it was meant to be it just means that rather than do something about it when we could we choose not to. Everything has a cause even if we don't know what it is or even if we cannot know what it is.

My explanation works fine, your "meaning" and "for a reason" bs are merely means of justifying failure or inaction or incompetence or of coping with the guilt related to failure or lack of action or incompetence. It is part of how humans stay sane when dealing with fuckups or proof of inadequacy.

In virtually every single conceivable situation there was something you could have done to prevent it. In virtually all of these cases it was something you could reasonably have been expected to do (e.g. send kid immediately to doctor when it has pain).

Looking for an external reason or meaning behind the event is a means of avoiding possibly self destructive introspection. Unfortunately this also prevents necessary self examination as well in many cases.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 07:37:22 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 06:16:03 PM
My explanation works fine, your "meaning" and "for a reason" bs are merely means of justifying failure or inaction or incompetence or of coping with the guilt related to failure or lack of action or incompetence. It is part of how humans stay sane when dealing with fuckups or proof of inadequacy.

In virtually every single conceivable situation there was something you could have done to prevent it. In virtually all of these cases it was something you could reasonably have been expected to do (e.g. send kid immediately to doctor when it has pain).

Looking for an external reason or meaning behind the event is a means of avoiding possibly self destructive introspection. Unfortunately this also prevents necessary self examination as well in many cases.

You're being ridiculous.

First, let me repeat that I don't believe in the whole "there's a reason for it" mentality. If you actually read my first post, you'd know that.

Second, the bolded part is insane. There are lots and lots and lots of things that happen that we have zero control over. In my own life, I can think of three off the top of my head: 1) My son dying due to an incompetent cervix, 2) My other son getting diabetes, and 3) my daughter being born with a muscle disorder that made her very delayed, physically, for the first three years of her life. Absolutely nothing could have been done to prevent, delay, or otherwise stop those things from happening. The only thing that would have prevented it happening would have been to not get pregnant. That's like saying, "You could have prevented getting the flu by living in an oxygen bubble." Well sure, but at what point do you live?

And these are not "rare" circumstances. They happen every day. Lots of people deal with things that they could not have prevented. Hurricanes destroy houses in places that have never had a hurricane before. Drought destroys farms. Illnesses kill. Businesses close, taking with them jobs and livelihoods. It's a fact of life.

As for your meteor example, exactly what could be done if a large meteor is found to be coming toward the earth? Even if you had a month, what could be done?

In all of these circumstances, no one is at fault. There is no inadequacy. There's just an intense sense of loss. Saying, "It was meant to be" doesn't cover any kind of guilt. It may, as Valmy suggested, offer some solace for people, I guess. It infuriates me, but it might make someone else feel better.

Your premise is faulty.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on January 11, 2013, 08:09:29 PM
Well the universe and everything in it has physical laws. As a Catholic I interpret the origins of such things differently than most, but I believe in those laws with a high degree of confidence. If a child dies to a disease or a city is destroyed by a meteor, yes there is a "technical reason." Perhaps in the child's case, genetics or random infection that even diligence was unable to prevent. In the case of a meteor, while our scientists may have not been tracking it previously and thus not really able to discern its origins or what set it on its path, some real action sent it hurtling toward that town.

But as a Catholic I also do not believe in "spiritual reasons" or "deep reasons" for things. Free will and the physical universe we inhabit have tons of moving pieces. Sometimes those pieces slam into people and destroy them, through random accidents, random violence, etc. One of the world's most accomplished marathon runners fell dead one day in his early 50s, he had severe blockages in his heart. Despite being under the regular care of a physician, the patient did not present ordinary symptoms (perhaps his extreme exercise in some way helped compensate for the blockages as they built up in parts of the heart, making it harder to detect), and he died. My brother died in his 40s of an aortic dissection, which is considered wholly fatal if it happens anywhere other than on an operating table or in extremely close proximity to one. They can develop in hours sometimes with no prior symptoms and are thus almost virtually unpreventable. In rare cases signs of an imminent dissection might be found, but that's very, very rare.

In the human body there are many faults that can develop overtime that progress to very rapid death and whose causes are not known to be related to any active lifestyle choices or linked to any known genetic disorders. Basically, sometimes parts of your body maybe just didn't form quite right, and one day they fail and you die earlier than most would consider normal. Pete Maravich was born without a left coronary artery, and he was a professional basketball player. His right coronary artery was much enlarged and apparently had grown very strong and big through compensating over the years. Enough that the guy could excel in a very demanding athletic endeavor, but Maravich's clock eventually ran out and he collapsed in a pickup basketball game and died at age 40. Prior to his death he had no symptoms whatsoever, and as a professional athlete he received closer scrutiny from doctors than many would at a similar age. But unless we basically do full body MRIs in addition to angiographies and a host of other tests there is very little anyone can do about most of these non-symptom producing problems. Even with those tests sometimes the problem is undetectable. My grandfather had a cerebral angiography which is exactly one of those tests that can help diagnose and prevent things that are going to turn into larger problems, but in his case, and this is a very rare but known side effect, his angiography caused an embolus to form which lead to stroke. Luckily it did not kill him, but it had negative effects on his cognition and quality of life, it easily could have killed him. So even doing all this aggressive testing can sometimes kill you while you had no underlying condition at all.

But I digress, yes everything has a technical cause, but "spiritual reasons the universe has certain events" are hogwash mostly. I do not believe aside from extraordinary instances that God communicates by randomly say, killing one child so another might live or something like that. I'm aware of the histories of the saints and miracles in the bible, but that's not a typical relationship between God and mankind. But I think for many people they have to believe things are meant to be or that there are reasons for things, because they simply can't handle the alternative. For them it is a coping mechanism for something they simply cannot handle otherwise, their assumption is everyone needs those same coping mechanisms which is why they say such things to other people.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Jaron on January 11, 2013, 08:11:23 PM
This thread reminded me of what a bitter and cynical place Languish is. :P
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 08:11:55 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 06:16:03 PM
In virtually every single conceivable situation there was something you could have done to prevent it.

LOL.

Ok you are descending to looney land now. 
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: katmai on January 11, 2013, 08:16:28 PM
Now?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 08:51:28 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 11, 2013, 08:16:28 PM
Now?

I know, right??
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 09:36:32 PM
Raz:  Successful. :smoke:
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 11, 2013, 10:37:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2013, 08:11:55 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 06:16:03 PM
In virtually every single conceivable situation there was something you could have done to prevent it.

LOL.

Ok you are descending to looney land now.

If I were assuming that we have perfect knowledge and know what we need to do to prevent as yet unconcieved situations in the future then I would be loony, but I don't.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: HVC on January 11, 2013, 11:04:26 PM
You know you're going to die. Prevent it :P
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Jaron on January 11, 2013, 11:22:20 PM
Well, he did say virtually. That gives his argument an out for about 1% of life situations, such as death and paying taxes. ;)
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: dps on January 11, 2013, 11:57:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
I don't think that things happen for a reason - at least not some global, over-reaching reason that I just can't fathom right then that will late make my life better.

Have you considered the possiblility that things happen for a reason, but that reason has nothing to do with making your personal life better?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2013, 01:18:57 AM
Yeah. I think things happen for a reason but I'm less than a speck in the universe and time.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 12, 2013, 01:29:16 AM
I think life, much like pen & paper rpgs, consists of rolling dice constantly.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: grumbler on January 12, 2013, 06:37:03 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:38:03 PM
To put it bluntly Psychology and Economics don't have theories or laws (though they like to pretend they do) they just have lots of hypotheses and postulates.

To put is bluntly, you will sound a lot less ignorant if you simply avoid making pronouncements that prove you know nothing of what you are talking about (though you pretend that you do).   "Hypothesis" is a synonym for "theory" and a postulate is just a hypothesis/theory that is assumed to be true for the case under study.   A "law" in this context is just a hypothesis that has survived being disproven to the point that it is generally held to be true without further testing (such as the "law of supply and demand" or "the laws of gravity").
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Scipio on January 12, 2013, 07:09:35 PM
Everything happens through some combination of shitty choices and physics.

Sometimes the shitty choices are yours, and sometimes they are those of other people.

Even when you think your choices aren't shitty, they are for somebody.  The trick is not giving a damn about shit outside your ability to affect it.  Knuckle down, drink heavily, and remember: when your grandkid asks you what you did in the great WW2, you won't have to say, I shoveled shit in Arkansas.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 12, 2013, 07:10:55 PM
Beautiful post, Scip.

But it was Louisiana.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Scipio on January 12, 2013, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 12, 2013, 07:10:55 PM
Beautiful post, Scip.

But it was Louisiana.
Well, Arkansas sounds better, and has more shit on the ground.  Louisiana's a swamp.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 12, 2013, 08:19:28 PM
Conceded.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Camerus on January 12, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Many events may seem (and probably are) meaningless and random, but the trick is trying to find something positive in them.  Obviously that's not always easy to do.

Also just keep in mind that fortuna is sometimes a bitch.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Viking on January 13, 2013, 12:10:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 12, 2013, 06:37:03 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 01:38:03 PM
To put it bluntly Psychology and Economics don't have theories or laws (though they like to pretend they do) they just have lots of hypotheses and postulates.

To put is bluntly, you will sound a lot less ignorant if you simply avoid making pronouncements that prove you know nothing of what you are talking about (though you pretend that you do).   "Hypothesis" is a synonym for "theory" and a postulate is just a hypothesis/theory that is assumed to be true for the case under study.   A "law" in this context is just a hypothesis that has survived being disproven to the point that it is generally held to be true without further testing (such as the "law of supply and demand" or "the laws of gravity").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

QuoteA scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."[1][2] Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force.[3][4]



A Law is a direct relationship between real phenomena, before Einstein and Planck people thought that laws were always true.

A Theory is a well supported set of laws, axioms and explanations which explain all facts and are contradicted by none.

A Hypothesis is a proposed addition to or replacement for a theory which is not well supported and either doesn't explain all the facts or is contradicted by some. 

A Postulate is a prediction based on a Hypothesis or fact. The correctness of that prediction goes to support the Hypothesis, or given a well supported theory confirm the fact.

You will sound a lot less ignorant if you had made your assertion above while knowing what a hypothesis or theory were and what the differences between them are.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Jaron on January 13, 2013, 01:20:35 PM
I think it is comforting for humans to believe some things will happen because they're meant to or not meant to because it takes the responsibility for the outcome out of our hands. Things might not happen for a reason, but that doesn't mean we can't draw lessons and experience from bad events. It is what makes someone who is 30 theoretically smarter and wiser than a 20 year old or a 10 year old.

Our experiences shape us into who we are, and we don't always have a say, but if nothing else we can usually soften the blows life sends our way!!!!! #chickensoup
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: The Brain on January 13, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Jaron is wise. And yes I do want fries with that.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Jaron on January 13, 2013, 01:23:20 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Jaron is wise. And yes I do want fries with that.

:wub:
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: katmai on January 13, 2013, 01:36:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Jaron is wise. And yes I do want fries with that.

You like Jaron's shake?
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: The Brain on January 13, 2013, 01:52:28 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 13, 2013, 01:36:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Jaron is wise. And yes I do want fries with that.

You like Jaron's shake?

Uh-huh!
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: Ed Anger on January 13, 2013, 02:17:40 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 13, 2013, 01:36:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 13, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
Jaron is wise. And yes I do want fries with that.

You like Jaron's shake?

It brings all the boys to the yard.
Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: grumbler on January 13, 2013, 07:14:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 13, 2013, 12:10:19 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

QuoteA scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."[1][2] Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force.[3][4]



A Law is a direct relationship between real phenomena, before Einstein and Planck people thought that laws were always true.

A Theory is a well supported set of laws, axioms and explanations which explain all facts and are contradicted by none.

A Hypothesis is a proposed addition to or replacement for a theory which is not well supported and either doesn't explain all the facts or is contradicted by some. 

A Postulate is a prediction based on a Hypothesis or fact. The correctness of that prediction goes to support the Hypothesis, or given a well supported theory confirm the fact.

You will sound a lot less ignorant if you had made your assertion above while knowing what a hypothesis or theory were and what the differences between them are.

You'd sound a lot less ignorant if you weren't reading Wikipedia to get your knowledge of the scientific method!  :lol:

A hypothesis is an explanation for observed phenomena.  Developing the hypothesis is a required step in the scientific method (see Professor Yo's explanation on the Drexel pages http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~pyo22/students/hypothesis.html  It cannot contradict current observations.  It also need not be "a proposed addition to or replacement for a theory" - in fact, the scientific method says it should be based on observations, not on preconceptions about other hypotheses (or theories).  If you think about it, you will see that your definition is, by definition, wrong - you cannot have a generalized hypothesis (or "theory," if you prefer) without the more specialized hypotheses that it generalizes from.  If all hypotheses required a pre-exisitng theory, and all theories required pre-existing hypotheses, it would not be logically possible for either to exist!

Note that the Scientific Method doesn't actually use the term "theory."  The term "theory" is used for a hypothesis that is more broadly applicable (a hypothesis that combines hypotheses, usually).  It cannot include disproven hypotheses.  It is, however, a hypothesis and must be tested.

A "law" is also not technically part of the scientific method.  It is a generalization about data and is a compact way of describing what we'd expect to happen in a particular situation (in other words, a hypothesis of what we would expect), but is generally so well-established that further attempts to disprove it only occur when data from elsewhere indicates a flaw in the current "law."

A postulate is not at all a prediction.  It is an assumption, or axiom - every hypothesis contains postulates.  They cannot be derived by deduction nor subjected to formal proofs - that's why they are postulates and not hypotheses.

Note that economics contains all of these things, contrary to your initial assertion.  Even if your made-up definitions for these terms were correct, economics would still contain all of them, contrary to your assertion.



Title: Re: Philosophy on life - do things really happen for a reason?
Post by: crazy canuck on January 14, 2013, 03:17:56 PM
My answer to the question in the OP which is stolen from PDH's signature quote:

QuoteI have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

Umberto Eco