Is it time for the US to re-evaluate our commitment to NATO?

Started by Berkut, June 10, 2011, 08:42:16 AM

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alfred russel

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 11, 2011, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 11, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
It uses Libya as an example of an action that NATO member countries should have no trouble supporting, assuming they have the desire to do so.

The point of the article is that NATO as a group has largely failed to maintain their militaries at a level necessary to effect even a pretty trivial intervention with needing to ask the US for assistance with meeting their own obligations.
....
The issue Gates is talking about is not so much political will to actually intervene, but that some NATO countries lack the capability to even engage in as minor an intervention as Libya. That is a problem for the alliance.

To wit:

QuoteOnly five of the 28 NATO allies meet NATO's recommendation that countries should spend at least 2% of GDP on defence: America, Britain, France, Greece and Albania.

The GDP of Russia is around $2 trillion. The GDP of the EU plus US is around $30 trillion. Do we really need to spend 2% of our GDP to deter the Russians? (yes, I know we have other commitments as well)
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Razgovory

Don't know.  If we don't we could probably stop them before they get past the Pyrenees.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

CountDeMoney

Quote from: alfred russel on June 11, 2011, 04:06:28 PM
Do we really need to spend 2% of our GDP to deter the Russians? (yes, I know we have other commitments as well)

It's a recommendation by the alliance for alliance members that wish to be in the alliance.

It's obvious that there's a fundamental difference of opinion on either side of the Atlantic on what the mission should be.  And who would've thought it wouldn't be the Americans that were stuck in a 1963 Cold War mindset?

Personally, I think we're through with NATO as a viable proactive international entity as well. US/Euro cooperation on collective security should be solely limited to law enforcement, since the Euros can't truly understand the concept of collective security beyond Maginot thinking.

Slargos

Quote from: alfred russel on June 11, 2011, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 11, 2011, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 11, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
It uses Libya as an example of an action that NATO member countries should have no trouble supporting, assuming they have the desire to do so.

The point of the article is that NATO as a group has largely failed to maintain their militaries at a level necessary to effect even a pretty trivial intervention with needing to ask the US for assistance with meeting their own obligations.
....
The issue Gates is talking about is not so much political will to actually intervene, but that some NATO countries lack the capability to even engage in as minor an intervention as Libya. That is a problem for the alliance.

To wit:

QuoteOnly five of the 28 NATO allies meet NATO's recommendation that countries should spend at least 2% of GDP on defence: America, Britain, France, Greece and Albania.

The GDP of Russia is around $2 trillion. The GDP of the EU plus US is around $30 trillion. Do we really need to spend 2% of our GDP to deter the Russians? (yes, I know we have other commitments as well)

Depends.

I would, while being relatively ignorant on the issue, assume that most of defense spending is in running costs rather than weapons systems. Hence, with cheap labour the cost of fielding an army of Russians may be vastly lower than of Germans or Americans.

Jacob

Quote from: dps on June 11, 2011, 02:22:08 PMIf you don't have the fuel and munitions needed to support a handful of planes blowing up Khaddifi's shit, you sure don't have the fuel and munitions that would be needed to support the large number of planes that would be needed to blow up Russia's shit, should it ever come to that.

Especially since, I believe, a fair bit of that fuel comes from Russia to begin with.

Admiral Yi

Anyone know which countries exactly are running out of bombs?

Iormlund

Regarding numbers, Spain used to mask a lot of its weapon procurement programs within the 'Ministry of Science and Technology' budget to downplay (deeply unpopular) military spending.

grumbler

Quote from: Iormlund on June 11, 2011, 02:23:20 PM
This is hardly the first time this topic has come up. And every time it does the reaction of US posters is pretty much the same (Damned Yuro freeloaders!). It's only natural to detect a pattern.
So "US posters" has become "the US?"  Okay, if you wanna think that.  :cool:
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Iormlund

Quote from: grumbler on June 11, 2011, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 11, 2011, 02:23:20 PM
This is hardly the first time this topic has come up. And every time it does the reaction of US posters is pretty much the same (Damned Yuro freeloaders!). It's only natural to detect a pattern.
So "US posters" has become "the US?"  Okay, if you wanna think that.  :cool:
To me, you guys ARE the States.

Berkut

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 11, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
I haven't read the rest of the comments but isn't this more that the US and others (including the UK) have transformed NATO's purpose.  It was a defensive alliance and that element remains; it's still the core of the Atlantic alliance and I don't think any NATO member state would let any other suffer an attack.  But in an attempt to make NATO relevant in a world where that sort of attack is simply implausible we've seen it become an offensive alliance in Kosovo and in Libya despite the fact that it's not what it's designed for, it's not what all member states want it to be and it's not necessarily performing missions that have strong alliance support. 

Every single NATO member voted in support of the current intervention in Libya.
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Berkut

I am a bit nonplussed. I am very surprised the response to this article is "Yeah, the US should totally re-think their commitment to NATO - it doesn't really make sense anymore" from the Euroes.
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Iormlund

Quote from: Berkut on June 11, 2011, 05:47:10 PM
Every single NATO member voted in support of the current intervention in Libya.

I suspect that was more of a 'Ok, we don't mind others bombing the crap out of Ghaddafi' than a 'Sure, let's bomb the crap out of Ghaddafi' deal.

Jacob

Quote from: Berkut on June 11, 2011, 05:49:29 PM
I am a bit nonplussed. I am very surprised the response to this article is "Yeah, the US should totally re-think their commitment to NATO - it doesn't really make sense anymore" from the Euroes.

I think it varies from European country to European country. I'm pretty sure countries like Denmark and Norway, for example, are still very keen on NATO. Having longer histories of being pushed around by the nearby big countries, they appreciate the advantage of having a far off big country to be friends with. At least that's the classical Danish position as I understand it.

Even if you think that the various recent foreign wars are a waste of time and US Imperialist AdventurismTM (and I think that's not an uncommon position in Europe whether or not you agree with it), then it still makes sense to me chip in once in a while as long as we're counting on the US in case of things going really wrong.

That's certainly my position from Canada, and the same when I think about it from a Danish perspective. We're counting on the US in case the Russians or anyone else decides to make a bunch of trouble; it's only fair to help them out with their various projects within reason.

To say that "there's no trouble now or in the next ten years, so fuck it" seems short sighted. Let's keep the bonds as strong as feasible.

The Brain

America should withdraw from world politics and concentrate on settling the vast interior of the continent.
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Razgovory

Quote from: Jacob on June 11, 2011, 06:00:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 11, 2011, 05:49:29 PM
I am a bit nonplussed. I am very surprised the response to this article is "Yeah, the US should totally re-think their commitment to NATO - it doesn't really make sense anymore" from the Euroes.

I think it varies from European country to European country. I'm pretty sure countries like Denmark and Norway, for example, are still very keen on NATO. Having longer histories of being pushed around by the nearby big countries, they appreciate the advantage of having a far off big country to be friends with. At least that's the classical Danish position as I understand it.

Even if you think that the various recent foreign wars are a waste of time and US Imperialist AdventurismTM (and I think that's not an uncommon position in Europe whether or not you agree with it), then it still makes sense to me chip in once in a while as long as we're counting on the US in case of things going really wrong.

That's certainly my position from Canada, and the same when I think about it from a Danish perspective. We're counting on the US in case the Russians or anyone else decides to make a bunch of trouble; it's only fair to help them out with their various projects within reason.

To say that "there's no trouble now or in the next ten years, so fuck it" seems short sighted. Let's keep the bonds as strong as feasible.

I bet Poland is pretty keen on it (Marty not withstanding).  Though, you know, it might be fun if this time, we took Russia's side.  Make it a game, "What ever you can take in 90 days, you get to keep.  Go nuts.".
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017