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Game of Thrones begins....

Started by Josquius, April 04, 2011, 03:39:14 AM

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Razgovory

I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

I see it like the black death approaching during the Hundred Years War.  An outside force of nature about to roll over society while the leadership is busy doing their petty noble crap.  They are so distracted by their petty problems they are not able to see the approaching cataclysms of Ice and Fire coming right for them.  I rather like the way he does it in the books because you the reader get caught up in the petty noble rivalries yourself.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

I see it like the black death approaching during the Hundred Years War.  An outside force of nature about to roll over society while the leadership is busy doing their petty noble crap.  They are so distracted by their petty problems they are not able to see the approaching cataclysms of Ice and Fire coming right for them.  I rather like the way he does it in the books because you the reader get caught up in the petty noble rivalries yourself.

That's a common theme in Fantasy, but usually the Ice isn't moving at them at the speed of a glacier.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Siege

Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?



"All men are created equal, then some become infantry."

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

"Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même!"


Razgovory

Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?

It's not finished.  If he cut out some of the stuff that doesn't move the plot along he'd be done by now.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?
:lmfao:
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

crazy canuck

Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

It starts out as a back story that comes more to the fore as the books progress.  Not sure what you want.  A simple plot where there is only one theme?

Josquius

Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?

It's not finished.  If he cut out some of the stuff that doesn't move the plot along he'd be done by now.

Actually he has the mystical northern front stuff pretty well worked out. He has said that its the political stuff down in Dorne that has had him stumped.
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grumbler

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
It starts out as a back story that comes more to the fore as the books progress.  Not sure what you want.  A simple plot where there is only one theme?
there are about ten of these back stories.  That's the problem with the books.  They would be twice as good with half the verbiage.  Not that I am saying they are bad books, but they definitely fall far short of well-written. 
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

The Brain

Fatty can't focus for shit and his books are all over the place. I still enjoyed them a lot, and I don't expect or long for an ending that ties it all together. It's the ride, not the destination.

And I don't give a fuck about the TV series. I will be forced to watch it for social reasons though, but I'm fine with that.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Faeelin

I agree with Raz completely.

Even the War of the Roses plot isn't going anywhere. Every time a challenger is defeated, another rises up. Sure, it might make some sense because Westeros was only loosely knit together, but what's the point?

And I'm still bothered by the winter.

Valmy

Quote from: The Brain on April 04, 2011, 11:31:32 AM
I still enjoyed them a lot, and I don't expect or long for an ending that ties it all together. It's the ride, not the destination.

I agree completely.  It may not be great literature or whatever (and frankly whether it is or not is a matter of supreme indifference) but I really enjoy it.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

crazy canuck

Quote from: grumbler on April 04, 2011, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
It starts out as a back story that comes more to the fore as the books progress.  Not sure what you want.  A simple plot where there is only one theme?
there are about ten of these back stories.  That's the problem with the books.  They would be twice as good with half the verbiage.  Not that I am saying they are bad books, but they definitely fall far short of well-written.

I cant think of ten that are equivalent to the ones we have identified.  I can think of three -   The war of the Roses (with all its various branches), Winter is coming, and the return of the Queen.  What other 7 are you thinking of?

Scipio

Martin is proof positive that a good editor needs a good editor.  Wild Cards is golden; ASOIAF is turgid.
What I speak out of my mouth is the truth.  It burns like fire.
-Jose Canseco

There you go, giving a fuck when it ain't your turn to give a fuck.
-Every cop, The Wire

"It is always good to be known for one's Krapp."
-John Hurt

Faeelin

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:46:45 AM
I cant think of ten that are equivalent to the ones we have identified.  I can think of three -   The war of the Roses (with all its various branches), Winter is coming, and the return of the Queen.  What other 7 are you thinking of?

Are you seperating the Stark children? It's not clear why one of them is now becoming a blind assassin, and another one is on some vision quest with the native americans of Westeros.