[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Oexmelin]

So what important issue does the Bloq Quebecois want to debate in Parliament tomorrow?  The invocation of the War Measures Act in October 1970. 

It sure is taking some time out of debating the merits of conversion therapy...

[Barrister]

So what important issue does the Bloq Quebecois want to debate in Parliament tomorrow?  The invocation of the War Measures Act in October 1970. 

It sure is taking some time out of debating the merits of conversion therapy...

And whose bill is that...

[Oexmelin]

And whose bill is that...

I know it's a Liberal bill. But that conversation isn't showing the Conservatives to their advantage. (And I agree, it's partly a cynical ploy by the Liberals precisely for that reason).

In any case, the War Measures Act was, and remains, a major political trauma in Quebec, and it should be in Canada too. It's a meaningful anniversary that was everywhere in the media here. Once again, we see how two different political cultures barely interact (and when they do, provoke resentment that the other perspective is misplaced). I am sure you'd sing a different tune if (or rather when) someone was bringing up the NEP. Except that the NEP wasn't introduced to trample on individual rights.

[Oexmelin]

I am still interested in your answer to this, BTW. (And I mean, genuinely interested - not "interested in fishing for a gotcha moment").

Does this perhaps show how the left, and the NDP in particular, has changed over the years?

How would you say it has changed? And how would you say the Conservatives have changed?

[Barrister]

And whose bill is that...

I know it's a Liberal bill. But that conversation isn't showing the Conservatives to their advantage. (And I agree, it's partly a cynical ploy by the Liberals precisely for that reason).

Oh don't be so honest.  It's entirely a cynical ploy.  I know my Criminal Code pretty well, and I can tell you there's no other type of "therapy" that has been criminalized.

In any case, the War Measures Act was, and remains, a major political trauma in Quebec, and it should be in Canada too. It's a meaningful anniversary that was everywhere in the media here. Once again, we see how two different political cultures barely interact (and when they do, provoke resentment that the other perspective is misplaced). I am sure you'd sing a different tune if (or rather when) someone was bringing up the NEP. Except that the NEP wasn't introduced to trample on individual rights.

I have seen a couple of articles about the anniversary of the NEP.  The only way the NEP wasn't a violation of individual rights is if you don't consider property rights as being individual rights.  And in any event seeking an apology 30 years later would be equally pandering.

[crazy canuck]

Why would anyone defend conversion therapy?

[Oexmelin]

The only way the NEP wasn't a violation of individual rights is if you don't consider property rights as being individual rights.

Err, really?! We're probably much too far apart on this to have a meaningful discussion.

[Barrister]

Why would anyone defend conversion therapy?

But why criminalize it?

[Barrister]

I am still interested in your answer to this, BTW. (And I mean, genuinely interested - not "interested in fishing for a gotcha moment").

Does this perhaps show how the left, and the NDP in particular, has changed over the years?

How would you say it has changed? And how would you say the Conservatives have changed?

You know I typed out a response too... not sure what happened to it.

NDP used to be a very blue-collar union heavy party.  Which led to some positions in the past that the modern NDP wouldn't touch.  The old NDP was relatively forgiving on gun ownership, as lots of its members were hunters. It was more skeptical on immigration, as it didn't want to potentially drive wages down.   It was relentlessly focused on pocketbook issues.

I think the NDP in particular has gotten far too caught up in identitarian / social justice / 'woke' politics which are not accepted by that former blue-collar base.  Electing Singh as leader is emblematic of this - seems like a nice enough guy, but he had no real experience and to be blunt was a terrible choice if the party wanted to retain it's Quebec beachhead.

Conservatives... I'm speaking from the inside so feel free to tell my your own answer, but I don't think we've changed too much.  We haven't gone full-bore nationalist like conservatives in other countries, have generally been in the same policy area for as long as I've been around.  Only change I can see is rejecting climate change as a serious issue - I mean Mulroney for example took the lead on several environmental issues.

[Grey Fox]

So there's a lot going on in the world and in Canada right?  We've got Covid-19 and the associated economic carnage.  In Ottawa we have the Liberals attempts to stifle opposition demands for more documentation regarding the WE charity scandal.

So what important issue does the Bloq Quebecois want to debate in Parliament tomorrow?  The invocation of the War Measures Act in October 1970. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bloc-motion-october-crisis-1.5779874

What should the BQ be talking about? How the west has poor provincial governments so it keeps turning to the federal for leadership?

[Barrister]

So there's a lot going on in the world and in Canada right?  We've got Covid-19 and the associated economic carnage.  In Ottawa we have the Liberals attempts to stifle opposition demands for more documentation regarding the WE charity scandal.

So what important issue does the Bloq Quebecois want to debate in Parliament tomorrow?  The invocation of the War Measures Act in October 1970. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bloc-motion-october-crisis-1.5779874

What should the BQ be talking about? How the west has poor provincial governments so it keeps turning to the federal for leadership?

Meowtf?

I think I already said.  They should be talking about Covid-19 and the Liberal filibuster on investigating the WE scandal.  They can certainly mark or mention the October crisis, but that really shouldn't be their leading concern of the day.

[Grey Fox]

Those 2 things are not relevant in Quebec.

Covid is obviously relevant in Quebec, but not the federal response.

[crazy canuck]

Why would anyone defend conversion therapy?

But why criminalize it?

Because it does harm to those who are vulnerable. 

So back to my question.

[crazy canuck]

The only way the NEP wasn't a violation of individual rights is if you don't consider property rights as being individual rights.

Err, really?! We're probably much too far apart on this to have a meaningful discussion.

BB is going into Bizarro right wing world on us.  In Canada property rights and individual rights are very different things, except for the fringiest of fringe right wingers.

Our Charter cases expressly deal with this issue and have long rejected the notion that property rights should be protected in the same way as the individual rights protected in the Charter.

[Barrister]

The only way the NEP wasn't a violation of individual rights is if you don't consider property rights as being individual rights.

Err, really?! We're probably much too far apart on this to have a meaningful discussion.

BB is going into Bizarro right wing world on us.  In Canada property rights and individual rights are very different things, except for the fringiest of fringe right wingers.

Our Charter cases expressly deal with this issue and have long rejected the notion that property rights should be protected in the same way as the individual rights protected in the Charter.

You are aware that including property rights in the Charter was a major point of contention during negotiations.

A concept like property rights doesn't just vanish if not codified into the Charter.  It may not have legal protection, but the moral importance still exists.