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[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

Started by Josephus, March 22, 2011, 09:27:34 PM

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viper37

Quote from: Grey Fox on September 05, 2020, 05:22:43 PM
Ending criminalization of drugs is more than just a way to ease the opioid crisis. It is also about erasing 100 years of racism.
that argument has been debunked before, with facts.  Most drugs became illegal long before they became associatied with ethnic communities.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

crazy canuck

Two interesting developments.

Last Thursday a multi year trial challenging the constitutionality of restrictions on private medical care came to an end with the release of reasons for decision from the Supreme Court of British Columbia dismissing the challenge.

One of the key factual findings was that a parallel private system would not reduce waiting times in the public system but would increase them.  The only winners would be the fortunate ones who can afford private health care.  The level of care would drop for everyone else.

If you want to read the 800ish page judgment - this is almost certainly heading to the BCCA and then on to the SCC.

https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/20/13/2020BCSC1310.htm#SCJTITLEBookMark3342


The second story -  a poll out of Alberta shows the NDP and Conservatives are tied provincially. 

HVC

i get that the level of care would drop for the uninsured, but why would the wait time go up? Hopefully you read that part so i don't have to go through 800 pages... which truthfully i wouldn't do :lol:
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Grey Fox

New Brunswick is having elections today & the Alberta poll is killing their time in light!
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Oexmelin

Quote from: HVC on September 14, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
i get that the level of care would drop for the uninsured, but why would the wait time go up? Hopefully you read that part so i don't have to go through 800 pages... which truthfully i wouldn't do :lol:

IIRC, because of doctors leaving the public system for the more lucrative private practice.
Que le grand cric me croque !

viper37

Quote from: Oexmelin on September 14, 2020, 10:32:43 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 14, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
i get that the level of care would drop for the uninsured, but why would the wait time go up? Hopefully you read that part so i don't have to go through 800 pages... which truthfully i wouldn't do :lol:

IIRC, because of doctors leaving the public system for the more lucrative private practice.
It hasn't happenned as of yet.  In fact, they make more by staying in the public and gaming the system than going 100% private.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

crazy canuck

Quote from: HVC on September 14, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
i get that the level of care would drop for the uninsured, but why would the wait time go up? Hopefully you read that part so i don't have to go through 800 pages... which truthfully i wouldn't do :lol:

It is hard to synthesize the factual findings as to why the court was persuaded that the opposite would be true into a few lines but I will do my best  :)


The case was fought on the basis of wait times.  Initially the Plaintiff's case was based on the theory that if private clinics were permitted they would take pressure off the public system thereby reducing wait times.  They had to abandon that position during the trial as there was no evidence that would occur.  Instead the Plaintiff took the position it was unconstitutional to deny a patient the choice of being cared for in a private clinic.  The Defence was that there was a rational connection between the restriction on private clinics and the harm that would be caused if they were entitled to operate without restriction.

So the factual battle became whether private clinics caused harm by increasing wait times in the public system.  The court found as a fact that it did and relied on academic literature from around the world which demonstrated that when private clinics are introduced medical health professionals reduce their time and effort in the public system for the more remunerative private clinics and  wait times in the public system increases.  There is also an interesting effect that increasing private insurance increases demand on the public system as the private system high grades the conditions it will deal with and refers other things out to the public system.  So the public system ends up with more demand, less physicians and nurses and so greater wait times.

One key factual finding by the Court was here:


[2342]  From the above evidence, I conclude that there is a strong connection between duplicative private healthcare and increases in wait times in the public system. The Duckett, MABEL and Manitoba studies are all consistent in finding a strong correlation between duplicative private healthcare and increases in wait times in the public system. The evidence from the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand also demonstrate this connection. The leading explanation for this is that the increase in wait times is the result of duplicative private healthcare increasing demand, while at the same time reducing capacity in the public system (by diverting human resources to the private system among other things). The evidence relating to such diversion is discussed in the next section.

[2343]  As noted by some experts, it is logical (and largely undisputed) that the introduction of private health insurance would increase demand in the public system. This would then put pressure on the resources available to the public system. Professor Hurley acknowledged that there was no empirical evidence that provides a "clean, unequivocal test" on this issue and "nor is such evidence likely to ever exist." He looked at a mixture of direct and indirect evidence. Similarly, as pointed out by Dr. Turnbull, the wide range of circumstances and medical conditions of patients on wait lists makes tracking them across the public and private sectors, or comparing those sectors, difficult. And Professor Hurley pointed out, it is not always possible to unambiguously classify patients since there are substantial and legitimate reasons for different judgements in the triaging process.






Valmy

Quote from: Grey Fox on September 14, 2020, 09:55:03 AM
New Brunswick is having elections today & the Alberta poll is killing their time in light!

They have their own right-wing populist party I see.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

crazy canuck

Quote from: viper37 on September 14, 2020, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 14, 2020, 10:32:43 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 14, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
i get that the level of care would drop for the uninsured, but why would the wait time go up? Hopefully you read that part so i don't have to go through 800 pages... which truthfully i wouldn't do :lol:

IIRC, because of doctors leaving the public system for the more lucrative private practice.
It hasn't happenned as of yet.  In fact, they make more by staying in the public and gaming the system than going 100% private.


So you are agreeing with the court.  ;)

HVC

That makes sense. Thanks CC and Oex
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Josephus

So looks like Freeland's threat to counter Trump's aluminum tariffs has worked, and the U.S. is pulling back. Trump wants to make America Great Again, but can't take on Canada in a trade war. What a loser.
Civis Romanus Sum

"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

viper37

Quote from: Valmy on September 14, 2020, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 14, 2020, 09:55:03 AM
New Brunswick is having elections today & the Alberta poll is killing their time in light!

They have their own right-wing populist party I see.
Anti-french parties have always been popular in Canada.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

viper37

Quote from: crazy canuck on September 14, 2020, 10:56:17 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 14, 2020, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 14, 2020, 10:32:43 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 14, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
i get that the level of care would drop for the uninsured, but why would the wait time go up? Hopefully you read that part so i don't have to go through 800 pages... which truthfully i wouldn't do :lol:

IIRC, because of doctors leaving the public system for the more lucrative private practice.
It hasn't happenned as of yet.  In fact, they make more by staying in the public and gaming the system than going 100% private.


So you are agreeing with the court.  ;)
I agree that the current rules are sub-optimal because they result in doctors going private 1 month, going public the next, going private after that all the while using the resources of the public sector to view and/or operate patients, which is inadmissible imho. 

You go private, fine, but then use your own clinic, or rent space in a public hospital if they have any, but don't game the system like that by using public resources to charge the insurance what you would still charge if everything was yours.

I am a consumer of private medicine, and without it, I'd still be suffering from crippling headaches that no one in the public bothered to help me with.  And the rules to see another doctor are so complicated and so long that it's not even an option.  I'd have to go back to the waiting list and wait at least one year, maybe more, until another doctor accepts new patients (once someone dies or moves out of town, basically).
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

Josephus

Civis Romanus Sum

"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

crazy canuck

BC NDP are rolling the dice calling an early election while enjoying high approval ratings.  The complicating factor for them is they formed a minority government three years ago by signing an agreement with the Greens in which the NDP promised not to hold another election for four years (the time required under legislation). 

It will be interesting to see if voters care about such things.  I suspect that it won't matter too much and that the election will be decided on pocket book issues rather than Parliamentary maneuvering.