The Impeachment of President Donald J Trump

Started by FunkMonk, September 24, 2019, 02:10:43 PM

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jimmy olsen

Quote from: Camerus on September 24, 2019, 09:58:42 PM
Given the number of media misfires in the past few years, I'm not sure it's worth rushing to judgment until we see a bit more evidence of what exactly was said. Not to say that Trump didn't do what he's accused of, only that in the age of Twitter, the media has been known to get ahead of itself. 

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's released transcript.

Transcripts aren't made of the president's conversation with foreign leaders, so whatever is going to be released will be a non incriminating summary.

Also, the whistle blower complaint was over a pattern of behavior, not just one incident.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Camerus

Not sure where you're getting that about transcripts or what the fact that the phone call is part of an alleged larger complaint has to do with wanting to see evidence before making up one's mind.

Yes, a harmless transcript wouldn't exonerate the man - obviously we need to hear testimony from the whistleblower himself etc. Still, keeping a cautious approach to this is the best bet, especially in our current moment.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Camerus on September 24, 2019, 10:22:07 PM
Not sure where you're getting that about transcripts or what the fact that the phone call is part of an alleged larger complaint has to do with wanting to see evidence before making up one's mind.

Yes, a harmless transcript wouldn't exonerate the man - obviously we need to hear testimony from the whistleblower himself etc. Still, keeping a cautious approach to this is the best bet, especially in our current moment.

Obama staffer said they didn't make transcripts of his conversations with foreign leaders, and it seems doubtful that Trump is keeping better records than Obama, when everything I've read about his administration points the other way.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

viper37

Quote from: Valmy on September 24, 2019, 07:00:12 PM
Ah well. I am not really sure what to tell the Democrats at this point so while I am a bit fearful this will probably just open the door to something terrible in the future, if the President did something worthy of impeachment let's move forward. I mean that is what the Congress is Constitutionally supposed to do.
looking at it from the outside, I get vibes of Southerners cheering and partying on learning they're going to war.
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If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

viper37

#49
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2019, 07:07:35 PM
The lesson Trump drew from the non-impeachment over Russia is that he is free to dragoon foreign governments into targeting political opponents at home.  If the Democrats passed this time he would not respond by showing greater restraint.
True.  But aren't they overplaying their hand if he really declassifies the conversation by tomorrow?
strike that.  just read Tim.  Never mind.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

FunkMonk

Transcript is out now. Seems pretty bad for Donald but I'm not a smart guy so who knows.

He offered the services of the Attorney General to help the Ukrainian President investigate Biden. That seems really, really shitty.
Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

Malthus

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Razgovory

Is there anything other than impeachment that can prevent Trump from doing this again? 
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

Starting to read it now - first thing I notice is that Jimmy is right, it's not a transcript at all.  It's a memo prepared from notes of attendees.  Significant difference.
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FunkMonk

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 11:35:23 AM
Starting to read it now - first thing I notice is that Jimmy is right, it's not a transcript at all.  It's a memo prepared from notes of attendees.  Significant difference.

Yeah. Yesterday NPR had on one of these "note takers" from the Obama administration and they described the process by which there were two designated note takers who independently took notes and discussed later for a single draft, which was then reviewed by their higher up and eventually distributed to meeting attendees for their own review before being filed away.
Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

The Minsky Moment

What a horror show.  Putting the Biden thing aside if this memo is reflective of Trump's typical interaction with foreign leaders, American diplomacy is in a very bad place.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

The Larch

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 25, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
What a horror show.  Putting the Biden thing aside if this memo is reflective of Trump's typical interaction with foreign leaders, American diplomacy is in a very bad place.

Can you elaborate, please? Besides the "beautiful country you have here, it'd be a pity if something happened to it" tone, that is.  :P

Camerus

The sycophantic flattery that the Ukrainian president heaps on Trump is disturbing on many levels.

Overall I'd say the text is pretty damning for Trump BUT it lacks the verbal "smoking gun" that would be necessary to convince many Trumpeters given that Trump was indirect in his threat.

Barrister

As an aside, this transcript is also kind of embarrassing for Zelensky - he comes across as trying very hard to toady up to Trump.  But I guess when you're in a low-level war with Russia and are desperate for friends, you do what you gotta do.
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Razgovory

There is no smoking gun that will cause Trump's supporters to abandon him.  Trump could be pointing a literal smoking gun at their own damned heads and they will follow him no matter what.  Suicide bombers aren't that fanatical.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017