Epstein booked for trafficking underaged girls

Started by jimmy olsen, July 08, 2019, 06:51:39 PM

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The Brain

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The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Syt on August 18, 2019, 12:01:28 AM
But always got out on technicalities? :P

Presumption of innocence.  Like Trump.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
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PDH

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 18, 2019, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 18, 2019, 12:01:28 AM
But always got out on technicalities? :P

Presumption of innocence.  Like Trump.

They can't lock up a legal mind like Minsky has.  The rest of the body? Sure.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
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The Minsky Moment

Never did M&A.  Capital markets (securities offerings) for about 3-4 years; commercial litigation since then.  As part of the latter I did some pro bono criminal defense.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Malthus

Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 17, 2019, 06:55:25 AM


Officers almost never get in trouble for straight up killing unarmed people on the street. Due to this their risk assessment is skewed.

This is a fundamentally different situation though. A prison guard could be reasonably sure that the suspicious death of a very high profile prisoner who is making front page news would catch all sorts of heat.

A cop shooting an unarmed relative nobody could look to many recent examples and reasonably conclude his chances of getting away with it with a slap on the wrist were pretty good.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

KRonn

Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.

Indeed.

The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.

In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.

This is what I'm thinking, and that the medical examiner made the announcement of suicide too fast, before other investigations were done. Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging. Lots of coincidences that added up for this to happen - cameras not working, guards asleep and/or not regular guards. But while suspicious I tend to feel there are too many people to pay off and to keep quiet, then too many pieces to put in place in order for this to have been staged.

Berkut

Quote from: KRonn on August 19, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.

Indeed.

The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.

In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.

This is what I'm thinking, and that the medical examiner made the announcement of suicide too fast, before other investigations were done. Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging. Lots of coincidences that added up for this to happen - cameras not working, guards asleep and/or not regular guards. But while suspicious I tend to feel there are too many people to pay off and to keep quiet, then too many pieces to put in place in order for this to have been staged.

How fast was the ME "announcement" compared to other apparent suicide autopsies? I mean, if you *know* it was "too fast" then of course you must know how much slower this typically takes. Can you share that information with us?

Also, you say "broken neck bones 'usually caused by strangulation'". Interesting that you know that, but the ME apparently did not. Seems like something they would know.

And this happens with hanging as well, by "more rarely".

How much more rarely, in the case of an older victim? Clearly you know, since you are sure this is obvious evidence that the ME apparently ignored in their "too fast" announcement.
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viper37

#157
Quote from: KRonn on August 19, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging.
if the guy was 20, you'd be absolutely right.  But broken neck bones in case of suicides tend to happen more frequently as the victim ages.  While I haven't checked his age, he does seem older than 20-something.
As for the timing, it's not that it takes a while to do an autopsy and publish a report, it's that usually, such cases aren't exactly top priority to get a ME do it on sunday morning.  On overtime, maybe.  A John Doe might have been handled by an assistant ME, than revised by a ME, who would then take some time to finalize the report.

Here, we have a high profile case, and I doubt it was an assistant who did the primary work, or even that interns were watching the process to learn alongside the practinioner.  This tends to expedite things.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

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KRonn

#158
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2019, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: KRonn on August 19, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: Malthus on August 16, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Yeah but incompetence is the simplest explanation.

Indeed.

The discussion above is part of the reason - if it wasn't incompetence, the guards would have to have had a really strong motive (like a big pay out). Which ought to be reasonably easy for investigators to discover, even if steps are taken to disguise it.

In short - if it wasn't incompetence, we can expect some evidence of malice to surface.

This is what I'm thinking, and that the medical examiner made the announcement of suicide too fast, before other investigations were done. Broken neck bones usually caused by strangulation but more rarely could occur from hanging. Lots of coincidences that added up for this to happen - cameras not working, guards asleep and/or not regular guards. But while suspicious I tend to feel there are too many people to pay off and to keep quiet, then too many pieces to put in place in order for this to have been staged.

How fast was the ME "announcement" compared to other apparent suicide autopsies? I mean, if you *know* it was "too fast" then of course you must know how much slower this typically takes. Can you share that information with us?

Also, you say "broken neck bones 'usually caused by strangulation'". Interesting that you know that, but the ME apparently did not. Seems like something they would know.

And this happens with hanging as well, by "more rarely".

How much more rarely, in the case of an older victim? Clearly you know, since you are sure this is obvious evidence that the ME apparently ignored in their "too fast" announcement.

Heh, I'm just going by what medical experts and doctors have said but you're right since most of them are giving views on TV and haven't done the actual examinations nor spoken with the examiners. Then too, I think it's rational to have some suspicions given Epstein was such a high visibility prisoner and there was so much failure leading to his death. As I did say though above, suspicions aside, the failure is much more likely due to incompetence and not a rather large conspiracy involving a number of people.