Author Topic: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy  (Read 643 times)

The Brain

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 27361
  • All man
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2019, 04:07:30 pm »
Ernst R÷hm, Holocaust victim. :rolleyes:
You are gay.

Duque de Braganša

  • Blue Ribbon Brother
  • **********
  • Posts: 4973
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2019, 04:20:57 pm »
In my understanding the Holocaust includes gays, gypsies, etc.

Shoah might be Jew-specific, but I'm not sure.

Since Shoah comes from Hebrew, I'd say Jewish-only too. Recently, a Romani word was found by activists I guess for the extermination of Gypsies i.e Porajmos. There is even talk now of "anti-tsiganism".
OTOH, no clue about the Holocaust. Holocaust could include not just Jews according to the countries.
As for homosexuals, this was mostly an internal nazi policy, unlike for Jews and Gypsies who were targeted all over occupied Europe.

grumbler

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19216
  • I'll sleep when I'm dead
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 05:42:27 pm »
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum uses "The Holocaust" to include Jews only, and "The Holocaust Era" for Jews, Gypsies, Gays, and all the other victims.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

garbon

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 51424
  • let's play bullets and bracelets
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 06:52:32 pm »
I don't recall at Dachau last year that they made a distinction other than to point out that the original memorial art created pointedly didn't have homosexuals represented.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Zanza

  • Incan Torpedo Boat Commander
  • ************
  • Posts: 7789
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2019, 10:32:13 pm »
In German, the word only refers to the genocide of Jews.

Valmy

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 45061
  • Champions du Monde
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2019, 11:40:04 pm »
My understanding of the Holocaust is that it was the program by the Nazi's to exterminate undesireables, most of which were Jews, but not exclusively so.

While it is understood the Germans killed many people in WWII, my understanding is that the Holocaust refers to the killing of the Jews.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

Honorary gay award from Martinus

The Larch

  • Incan Torpedo Boat Commander
  • ************
  • Posts: 8022
  • I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 04:59:15 am »
Checking on wiki it seems that Holocaust is indeed used to refer only to Jews, and is interchangeably with Shoah. Other persecuted groups are included in a "Other victims of nazi persecution", and the only other group to have their own name for their persecution are the Roma.

Richard Hakluyt

  • Can I Be: Ottoman Empire
  • ***********
  • Posts: 6238
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 05:22:05 am »
I've always assumed that the Holocaust was used for the nazi mass murder of Jews. It is a way of making it stand out from the everyday beastly brutality so common with humans. There are other terms for other particularly heinous events; the Holodomor for the Stalin-instigated famine in Ukraine for example.

dps

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 10009
  • aa's boobs
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2019, 07:38:16 am »
I always thought that it referred to all of the Nazi's organized mass murderous activities.  Perhaps the usage has changed over time?  It would appear that my understanding of the term is shared by the other American posters in my age group, but not by younger posters or non-Americans.

grumbler

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19216
  • I'll sleep when I'm dead
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2019, 09:22:55 am »
I always thought that it referred to all of the Nazi's organized mass murderous activities.  Perhaps the usage has changed over time?  It would appear that my understanding of the term is shared by the other American posters in my age group, but not by younger posters or non-Americans.

When I teach it, I teach the Holocaust as the whole Nazi industrial murder machine, and note that I am not using the term as the USHMM does.  I think that the usage has changed over time, but not consistently in one direction.  My impression has been that the left uses it more generally, the right more specifically, and the usage in public discourse has varied accord to who is in power.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Razgovory

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • Neil
  • **************
  • Posts: 34564
  • Madman of Languish
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2019, 12:40:27 pm »
I've always thought that the Holocaust was whole Nazi extermination campaign and the Shoah was specifically the Jewish part.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

"I love how Raz just becomes the caricature for exactly what he is claiming doesn't actually exist...and he doesn't even know it! He is 100% oblivious to the irony of his own statements." - Berkut telling a lie.

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

mongers

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 16312
  • Embrace the solitude
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2019, 04:39:55 pm »
I've always thought that the Holocaust was whole Nazi extermination campaign and the Shoah was specifically the Jewish part.

Yes that's what I thought, so as others have mentioned perhaps it's ones age and that usage has changed /tightened over time?
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Admiral Yi

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 39203
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2019, 04:41:58 pm »
Hypothesis based on no real evidence: the Holocaust Museum in DC has evolved the usage.
I'm up $25 on DGuller.

Razgovory

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • Neil
  • **************
  • Posts: 34564
  • Madman of Languish
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2019, 09:43:51 pm »
I've always thought that the Holocaust was whole Nazi extermination campaign and the Shoah was specifically the Jewish part.

Yes that's what I thought, so as others have mentioned perhaps it's ones age and that usage has changed /tightened over time?


I was curious, so I looked up the etymology.


Quote
mid-13c., "sacrifice by fire, burnt offering," from Old French holocauste (12c.), or directly from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston "a thing wholly burnt," neuter of holokaustos "burned whole," from holos "whole" (from PIE root *sol- "whole, well-kept") + kaustos, verbal adjective of kaiein "to burn" (see caustic).

Originally a Bible word for "burnt offerings," given wider figurative sense of "massacre, destruction of a large number of persons" from 1670s. The Holocaust "Nazi genocide of European Jews in World War II," first recorded 1957, earlier known in Hebrew as Shoah "catastrophe." The word itself was used in English in reference to Hitler's Jewish policies from 1942, but not as a proper name for them.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/holocaust
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

"I love how Raz just becomes the caricature for exactly what he is claiming doesn't actually exist...and he doesn't even know it! He is 100% oblivious to the irony of his own statements." - Berkut telling a lie.

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

dps

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 10009
  • aa's boobs
Re: Israel slams Germany for 'dishonest rewriting' of Anne Frank's legacy
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 01:02:30 pm »
The German diplos tweets about Anne Frank have nothing to do with Iran; raising the Iran policy is a non sequitur.

There is nothing "wishy-washy" or "pseudo" about universal values.  That kind of sentiment was shared by the people perscuting Anne Frank.  Recognition of universal human rights is part of Israel's constitution (Basic Law).  It's a disgraceful statement for an Israeli diplomat to make, or any diplomat for that matter.




Gotta wonder if at some point prior to 2016, Donald Trump looked at the Netanyahu government and said to himself, "Hmm, you know, I could do that".