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End of WW2 - 75th anniversary

Started by Maladict, June 05, 2019, 08:03:02 AM

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Tonitrus

#60
Merkel could have been said to represent German opposition to Hitler...would they count as falling under the "Allies"?  (many would likely say the French resistance did).

And I would note on the Putin invitation question, that I don't think we were invited to the Victory Day parade in Moscow this year.  :sleep:

Quote from: Valmy on June 09, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.

We should save that for when Boris is PM.  :P

Josquius

#61
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.

QuoteQuite untrue.  It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.

Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?
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Tamas

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 AM
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.

QuoteQuite untrue.  It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.

Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?

I think the Germans have shown great collective wisdom and earnestness in denouncing their Nazi years, in stark contrast of pretty much any other nation ever when it comes to that or similar involvements.

So, most certainly, present Germans should not get any flak for those years.

On the other hand, I am reluctant to give the German soldiers a blanket free pass. Sure, they didn't have a choice. But neither did the Italians, yet, their performance and moral properly reflected a reluctant army of conquest.

You don't put in a performance like the Wehrmacht if you don't agree with what you are doing.

Grinning_Colossus

Quis futuit ipsos fututores?

Tamas

I can tell Don Draper was still at the farm when that was done.

Berkut

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 AM
Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?

I am sure most ordinary Germans at the time said things like "I am no Hitler supporter, but I do support most of his policies..."

And while I don't think most ordinary Germans had a "choice", they do have to own their acquiescence to the regime, especially at points when the regime was not as firmly in control as it eventually became - the Nazis were a political party, its not like they were a foreign occupying power.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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The Brain

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 AM
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.

QuoteQuite untrue.  It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.

Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?

IIRC "I only followed orders" hasn't been universally accepted as an excuse.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Richard Hakluyt

The Nazis were democratically elected after all. It seems to be reasonably easy to get a plurality of people to support heinous policies; all you need is a comprehensive fuck-up by the established political elite and the reprehensibles can move in.

Josquius

#68
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are now well understood and had circumstances been different the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
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Saladin

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 14, 2019, 01:30:45 AM
The Nazis were democratically elected after all. It seems to be reasonably easy to get a plurality of people to support heinous policies; all you need is a comprehensive fuck-up by the established political elite and the reprehensibles can move in.

Hmm..
This rings a bell. :hmm::P
"You'd be better served taxing your conscience for those who deserve your regret."

The Brain

Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.

It's the snazzy uniforms, isn't it?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Admiral Yi

Nationalism happened.  Punch was  served.

The Brain

Women want me. Men want to be with me.

dps

Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.

The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it.  That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement.  Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate.  Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.

grumbler

Quote from: dps on June 14, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 AM
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.

The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it.  That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement.  Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate.  Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.

You have to remember that you are talking to Tyr.  To him, like the Trumpeters, facts that disagree with actual facts are merely alternative facts.  Trump, like Tyr, appears genuinely unaware that Germany fought against the UK and the US in WW2, no matter what it did later.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!