Author Topic: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary  (Read 1339 times)

Tonitrus

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2019, 03:12:12 pm »
Merkel could have been said to represent German opposition to Hitler...would they count as falling under the "Allies"?  (many would likely say the French resistance did).

And I would note on the Putin invitation question, that I don't think we were invited to the Victory Day parade in Moscow this year.  :sleep:

I want to see Trump, May, and Putin re-enact that famous shot of the Big 3 at Yalta.

We should save that for when Boris is PM.  :P
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 03:14:47 pm by Tonitrus »

Tyr

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2019, 02:26:06 am »
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.

Quote
Quite untrue.  It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.

Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 02:29:00 am by Tyr »
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Tamas

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2019, 04:54:44 am »
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.

Quote
Quite untrue.  It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.

Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?

I think the Germans have shown great collective wisdom and earnestness in denouncing their Nazi years, in stark contrast of pretty much any other nation ever when it comes to that or similar involvements.

So, most certainly, present Germans should not get any flak for those years.

On the other hand, I am reluctant to give the German soldiers a blanket free pass. Sure, they didn't have a choice. But neither did the Italians, yet, their performance and moral properly reflected a reluctant army of conquest.

You don't put in a performance like the Wehrmacht if you don't agree with what you are doing.

Grinning_Colossus

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2019, 09:27:41 am »
Quis futuit ipsos fututores?

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Tamas

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2019, 09:31:50 am »
I can tell Don Draper was still at the farm when that was done.

Berkut

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2019, 04:06:00 pm »
Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?

I am sure most ordinary Germans at the time said things like "I am no Hitler supporter, but I do support most of his policies..."

And while I don't think most ordinary Germans had a "choice", they do have to own their acquiescence to the regime, especially at points when the regime was not as firmly in control as it eventually became - the Nazis were a political party, its not like they were a foreign occupying power.
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The Brain

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2019, 04:46:41 pm »
Oh jeez. You can just see him pushing for that.

Quote
Quite untrue.  It is the idea that it doesn't matter what side you fight on that makes for hostility never ending.

Thats just daft.
What side did Merkel fight on?
Did you think the ordinary Germans of the time had a free choice which side to pick?

IIRC "I only followed orders" hasn't been universally accepted as an excuse.
You are gay.

Richard Hakluyt

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2019, 01:30:45 am »
The Nazis were democratically elected after all. It seems to be reasonably easy to get a plurality of people to support heinous policies; all you need is a comprehensive fuck-up by the established political elite and the reprehensibles can move in.

Tyr

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2019, 02:32:47 am »
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are now well understood and had circumstances been different the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 06:58:49 am by Tyr »
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Saladin

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2019, 02:38:10 am »
The Nazis were democratically elected after all. It seems to be reasonably easy to get a plurality of people to support heinous policies; all you need is a comprehensive fuck-up by the established political elite and the reprehensibles can move in.

Hmm..
This rings a bell. :hmm::P
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The Brain

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2019, 02:43:04 am »
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.

It's the snazzy uniforms, isn't it?
You are gay.

Admiral Yi

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2019, 03:51:20 am »
Nationalism happened.  Punch was  served.
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The Brain

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2019, 05:06:14 am »
Dropping Anjin-san?
You are gay.

dps

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2019, 10:27:49 am »
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.

The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it.  That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement.  Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate.  Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.

grumbler

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Re: End of WW2 - 75th anniversary
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2019, 08:39:05 pm »
I note people are missing the key part of the point here.
Nobody would doubt that under the nazis Germany did bad things.
However that is in no way due to modern Germans, and even with the Germans of the time the reasons for the nazis are well understood and had circumstances been difficult the same cancer could well have infected any of us.

In modern times we should recognise that it was not Germany or germanness that was the problem that led to ww2. Rather it was nationalism. It could happen to any of us.
Rather than being drawn down into the mud with those who think commemorative events should be celebratory victory matches we should instead unite with the descendents of those who were on the wrong side to remember as mutual victims. Germany afterall suffered more than most.
When the ideology at fault was so built on militaristic nationalism in particular it makes no sense to take that approach to commemoration.
Amongst the brexit generation raised on a diet of mid 20th century war movies we can clearly see that the path of celebration leads back to the same place.

The key point you're missing is that referring to Germany as an Allied nation in WW2, or implying that it was an Allied nation, is so completely incorrect and so massively stupid that it deserves any ridicule that may be heaped upon it.  That is completely independent of any issues involving the causes of the war, or the committing of war crimes, or any other moral judgement.  Germany was, quite simply put, not a member of the Allies in WW2, and that's a fact that is not subject to debate.  Heck, I'm not even aware of any Holocaust deniers who claim that Germany was a member of the Allies.

You have to remember that you are talking to Tyr.  To him, like the Trumpeters, facts that disagree with actual facts are merely alternative facts.  Trump, like Tyr, appears genuinely unaware that Germany fought against the UK and the US in WW2, no matter what it did later.
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