Author Topic: Alabama abortion ban: Republican state senate passes most restrictive law in US  (Read 2435 times)

Razgovory

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I'm pretty sure the woman (or other person with a uterus) is way more human than the fetus. Also, I'm always going to defer to the individual wishes of a person regarding what is and is not inside their own body.


Our country has had a poor record of deciding who is and who is not "more human".

Our laws are kinda inconsistent on the issue of a fetus.  If you kill a pregnant woman it is a double homicide in some jurisdiction.  There are some weird roads you could go down by considering a fetus to be part of a woman.  Theoretically if a woman is convicted of a crime and loses the right to control her own body the state could force reproductive choices on her.  I believe that has happened in cases with migrants to keep them from giving birth to "anchor babies".  I suppose it would even be possible to impose pregnancy on a woman who no longer has legal control of her body.
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garbon

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I'm pretty sure the woman (or other person with a uterus) is way more human than the fetus. Also, I'm always going to defer to the individual wishes of a person regarding what is and is not inside their own body.


Our country has had a poor record of deciding who is and who is not "more human".

Our laws are kinda inconsistent on the issue of a fetus.  If you kill a pregnant woman it is a double homicide in some jurisdiction.  There are some weird roads you could go down by considering a fetus to be part of a woman.  Theoretically if a woman is convicted of a crime and loses the right to control her own body the state could force reproductive choices on her.  I believe that has happened in cases with migrants to keep them from giving birth to "anchor babies".  I suppose it would even be possible to impose pregnancy on a woman who no longer has legal control of her body.

Well yes this thread is about the state (as run by old, straight, white males) imposing it's own reproductive choices on women.
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dps

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If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

The Brain

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If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

Are you obligated to house those in your body?
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derspiess

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You know, the thing is... you can't defend these laws. None of you conservatives can. You know they're wrong.

The law is too restrictive and I can't bring myself to support it.

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You know they do not bring about the changes you claim to want (fewer abortions). You say crap like this and dps "takes offense", but at the end of the day, you have no real defense.

Well, I'm not going to defend the Alabama law.  Go ahead and have at it.

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Your party has jumped the shark, and you know it.

In a sense, both parties have.  But I'm not ready to leave the party yet-- certainly not over something Alabama Republicans did.

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There is absolutely no way to defend what they're doing to women. And don't pull the whole "it's about the baby!!" thing, because these new laws with absolutely nothing else to help prevent pregnancies show without a shadow of a doubt that it's not about the babies. It's about controlling women.

I guess that's the 'energizing myth' that keeps you feminists riled up.  That we go around all day thinking of how we can control women.  It really is about the baby, and outside of that most of us don't give a rip what a woman does with her body.

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But still... you can't just say, "Man... this is messed up."

If it makes you happy, then I'll say it.  Man, this is messed up.

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merithyn

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If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

How about the women who have to risk their life for this fetus? Do they get no sympathy from you?

And you're fighting hard to help these women and their children, too, yes? Calling your reps to push for medical and monetary support?

This isn't about the baby no matter how much you want to claim it is.
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derspiess

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How about the women who have to risk their life for this fetus? Do they get no sympathy from you?

They absolutely do.  That would be one of the exemptions I favor.

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And you're fighting hard to help these women and their children, too, yes? Calling your reps to push for medical and monetary support?

I'm generally not the activist type, so no I'm not out there fighting & whatnot.  My chosen charity for the past 22 years has been an organization that provides support to indigent pregnant women and mothers of newborns.

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This isn't about the baby no matter how much you want to claim it is.

It is, but I understand the utility in your side downplaying that aspect.
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merithyn

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You know, the thing is... you can't defend these laws. None of you conservatives can. You know they're wrong.

The law is too restrictive and I can't bring myself to support it.

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You know they do not bring about the changes you claim to want (fewer abortions). You say crap like this and dps "takes offense", but at the end of the day, you have no real defense.

Well, I'm not going to defend the Alabama law.  Go ahead and have at it.

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Your party has jumped the shark, and you know it.

In a sense, both parties have.  But I'm not ready to leave the party yet-- certainly not over something Alabama Republicans did.

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There is absolutely no way to defend what they're doing to women. And don't pull the whole "it's about the baby!!" thing, because these new laws with absolutely nothing else to help prevent pregnancies show without a shadow of a doubt that it's not about the babies. It's about controlling women.

I guess that's the 'energizing myth' that keeps you feminists riled up.  That we go around all day thinking of how we can control women.  It really is about the baby, and outside of that most of us don't give a rip what a woman does with her body.

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But still... you can't just say, "Man... this is messed up."

If it makes you happy, then I'll say it.  Man, this is messed up.

It's feminist to say that I don't want to risk death over a child I don't want? It's feminist to say that I want AT LEAST the same rights as a corpse? It's feminist to say that I have a right to decide how my body is used? Is feminist to want exactly as much right to the same medical care as men get?

Okay, yep. I'm s feminist. You got me.

And lest you forget, Alabama's laws are nothing to my mind compared to Georgia's. Which you seem just fine with. Or Missouri? Or Ohio? Or Florida?

This isn't an Alabama Republican issue. This is your party determining that women are less valuable as people than a clump of cells. ESPECIALLY when that same party does absolutely nothing to actually try to prevent the pregnancies in the first place.

There is not only zero legislative action bu the Republican party to help prevent unwanted pregnancies, but they are actively getting rid of programs intended to do exactly that.

And you support this. You, who claim to be about the babies. Because at the end of the day, you believe that it's the woman's fault for wanting to get laid.
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merithyn

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derpiess, every pregnancy is a risk to the mother. Every single one. So if we're going to carry this baby to fruition, it's at the risk of our own health. Every time.
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merithyn

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Let me get something straight here. Despite what you are intimating,  I am absolutely not pro-abortion. I am 100% for doing everything in our power as a society to eliminate as many unwanted pregnancies as can possibly be done.

Sex education, free or subsidized birth control, extensive medical support for everyone regardless of their ability to pay. And when all else fails, the ability to decide not to carry an unwanted baby before the 20th week.

Because this is respectful to women and has proven to lower abortion rates to incredibly low numbers.
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derspiess

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Not really interested in wasting time debating abortion with you or really anyone else, Meri.  Since you called me out, I felt like I had to chime in and clarify what my views are and what I believe they are for other pro-life folks.  But I should have realized you were spoiling for a fight. 
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grumbler

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Who was it here that was against employer-provided "whore pills?"  That person was definitely anti-women.
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Solmyr

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If an unborn fetus is a human being, then IMO, abortion can never be justified, and the "my body my choice" rhetoric is crap, because then it's not just the woman's body.

Then that fetus is welcome to GTFO and survive on its own, because the woman is not obligated to offer her body to provide for its support.


So you think that the state has no business looking out for those who are incapable of taking care of themselves?  Do you apply that standard to orphans, the mentally ill, those with severe physical handicaps, etc.?   Are they less human to you to?  As a European, do you also feel that, say, Christians are "more human" than, say, Jews?

The state can look out for the fetus if it wants. Just don't involve women in it against their will.

And as Meri said, it's not like your state has a great track record caring about babies' welfare.

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There is no pro-life, there is only forced-birth assholes.
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derspiess

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Who was it here that was against employer-provided "whore pills?"  That person was definitely anti-women.

I never opposed employers providing them in health insurance-- personally I would include them if I ran a company or made those decisions in a company.  I was against employers being forced to do so by the government.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall