Author Topic: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?  (Read 1245 times)

Oexmelin

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2018, 10:23:12 am »
It's ridiculous fearmongering.  Our Constitution is impossible to change without overwhelming agreement.

As Tim pointed out, it doesn't require overwhelming agreement. It simply requires enough institutional control: a convention can be called by 2/3 of the states - and since that would be entering uncharted territory, even the means of ratification proposed by that Convention could diverge from the current rule (3/4 of the states). And in case of conflict over *that*, it is unclear where the adjudication would be coming from - and I would neither be too sure of the Supreme Court, nor of a meeting of reasonable minds at this point.

These right-wing groups calling for the convention have been preparing with material, lobbyists, talking points, and super pacs for years, and they are patient. Considering how so many things that were unthinkable only a few years back are now very much thinkable, and a reality at that, I think brushing that aside as ridiculous is perhaps premature, and unwise.
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Eddie Teach

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 10:26:36 am »
Amending (in 1982) and then subsequent attempts to further amend our constitution (in the 90s) came very close to ending Canada as we know it.

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Oexmelin

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2018, 10:27:53 am »
And apparently, you never managed to assimilate the racists.
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Valmy

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 10:32:27 am »
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

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garbon

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 10:35:18 am »
It's ridiculous fearmongering.  Our Constitution is impossible to change without overwhelming agreement.

As Tim pointed out, it doesn't require overwhelming agreement. It simply requires enough institutional control: a convention can be called by 2/3 of the states - and since that would be entering uncharted territory, even the means of ratification proposed by that Convention could diverge from the current rule (3/4 of the states). And in case of conflict over *that*, it is unclear where the adjudication would be coming from - and I would neither be too sure of the Supreme Court, nor of a meeting of reasonable minds at this point.

These right-wing groups calling for the convention have been preparing with material, lobbyists, talking points, and super pacs for years, and they are patient. Considering how so many things that were unthinkable only a few years back are now very much thinkable, and a reality at that, I think brushing that aside as ridiculous is perhaps premature, and unwise.

At the same time, I think there's plenty of other stuff to worry about ahead of this.
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Oexmelin

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 10:38:30 am »
At the same time, I think there's plenty of other stuff to worry about ahead of this.

Sure. But I think it is less ridiculous than what Yi was saying. And we should keep an eye on this, lest the left finds itself once again forced to react to a well-designed Conservative machine, well-lubricated by millions from committed ideologues.
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Eddie Teach

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2018, 10:45:50 am »
And apparently, you never managed to assimilate the racists.

Eh... I think our problem is mainly people deciding where to live based on politics. But even with that state races are usually 60-40 or closer.
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Valmy

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2018, 10:49:39 am »
And apparently, you never managed to assimilate the racists.

Eh... I think our problem is mainly people deciding where to live based on politics. But even with that state races are usually 60-40 or closer.

Pretty sure people decide where to live based on work and people they know.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

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Barrister

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2018, 10:53:55 am »
Pretty sure people decide where to live based on work and people they know.

Politics was a definite factor on me choosing where to live.

I mean - I guess the joke's on me since I now live under the socialist dictates of the Alberta NDP, but it still explains in part why I'm here.

crazy canuck

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2018, 10:58:36 am »
At the same time, I think there's plenty of other stuff to worry about ahead of this.

Sure. But I think it is less ridiculous than what Yi was saying. And we should keep an eye on this, lest the left finds itself once again forced to react to a well-designed Conservative machine, well-lubricated by millions from committed ideologues.

Agreed.  The Canadian experience is a cautionary tale of a constitutional convention opened with the best of intentions (discussing how to repatriate and what a constitutional bill of rights might look like) and still going horribly wrong.  What is being proposed now by the US right is something far from a good faith exercise but one that is motivated entirely to meet ideological objectives.

Valmy

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2018, 11:02:58 am »
Texas had a Constitutional Convention in the 1970s to finally replace our 'temporary' reconstruction state constitution (still going!). Texas was (and still is) basically a one party state.

It was a complete and total shit show. I cannot imagine what a farce a national Constitutional Convention would be these days. We sometimes forget what a miracle the 1787 Convention was.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

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garbon

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2018, 11:03:52 am »
And apparently, you never managed to assimilate the racists.

Eh... I think our problem is mainly people deciding where to live based on politics. But even with that state races are usually 60-40 or closer.

Pretty sure people decide where to live based on work and people they know.

Yes, though it also true that I don't want to live next to very fine people.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Oexmelin

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2018, 11:09:17 am »
It was a complete and total shit show. I cannot imagine what a farce a national Constitutional Convention would be these days. We sometimes forget what a miracle the 1787 Convention was.

That mythologizing is partly a problem, because it erases the fact that it was an extremely contentious political process. A miracle cannot be replicated, but a political process on such matters ought not to be thought of as a zero-sum game.
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Valmy

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2018, 11:28:37 am »
It was a complete and total shit show. I cannot imagine what a farce a national Constitutional Convention would be these days. We sometimes forget what a miracle the 1787 Convention was.

That mythologizing is partly a problem, because it erases the fact that it was an extremely contentious political process. A miracle cannot be replicated, but a political process on such matters ought not to be thought of as a zero-sum game.

How does that erase that fact? The fact that they were able to compromise through such contentious issues is what is hard to replicate. That is the very thing what makes it seem so miraculous today.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

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FunkMonk

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Re: U.S. Constitutional Convention - nonsense or real option?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2018, 11:46:00 am »
A Constitutional Convention in today's political climate would be such an epochal disaster that I shudder to think of the chaos that would be unleashed in this country. In a time of bad ideas, this one might be the worst of all.

Therefore, I think it will likely happen before the 2024 election to enable Donald to run for a third term.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 11:50:52 am by FunkMonk »
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