Author Topic: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?  (Read 859640 times)

Caliga

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22665 on: June 14, 2019, 08:25:29 am »
Still not as lame as the "Polish attack on Gleiwitz"  :rolleyes:
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The Brain

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22666 on: June 14, 2019, 08:46:31 am »
Or "the Han shot first". :rolleyes:
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Razgovory

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22667 on: June 14, 2019, 09:40:36 am »
Is ignorance of the law a defense in the US?


Lack of mens rea is.
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The Brain

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22668 on: June 14, 2019, 09:52:19 am »
You are gay.

The Minsky Moment

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22669 on: June 14, 2019, 12:01:37 pm »
Is ignorance of the law a defense in the US?

Normally it is not but some courts have carved out exceptions for so-called "regulatory" offenses. In an decision by the DC Court of Appeals -- Bluman v. Federal Election Com'n - the court stated (as dictum) that "proof of the defendant's knowledge of the law" is required to convict.

The judge who decided that case?  Then circuit court judge Brett Kavanaugh.
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The Brain

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22670 on: June 14, 2019, 12:07:01 pm »
Is ignorance of the law a defense in the US?

Normally it is not but some courts have carved out exceptions for so-called "regulatory" offenses. In an decision by the DC Court of Appeals -- Bluman v. Federal Election Com'n - the court stated (as dictum) that "proof of the defendant's knowledge of the law" is required to convict.

The judge who decided that case?  Then circuit court judge Brett Kavanaugh.

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The Minsky Moment

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22671 on: June 14, 2019, 12:10:17 pm »
Joan, how certain are you about your conclusions?  I've heard many times that "ignorance is no defense," your quote about "relevant knowledge" doesn't specify knowledge about which issues, and Mueller, at least according to the headline summary, exonerated Trump of colluding with Russia, even after he specifically asked them to hack Hilary's server.

Which conclusions?

I'm very confident that Paul Manafort, one of the most experienced campaign operators in America, who also worked a number of foreign campaigns, was familiar with the rules on foreign contributions.  You are correct that the Mueller report's reference to "relevant knowledge" is vague.  It is the only thing the report says on that particular subject and I don't have any special insight into why Mueller and his team were so cagey about it.  I know their relationship with Manafort was complex and difficult.

The Mueller report did not investigate or make findings about "collusion" - the very use of that term is Trumpian spin.  The Mueller team looked at "coordination" defined as an element of agreement sufficient to support a criminal charge of conspiracy.  Mueller's team did not find evidence of such an agreement. Trump's invitation to hack the server is a unilateral statement so unless there was some contemporaenous communication to him from Russia on the subject, it would not be evidence of a conspiratorial agreement.  It could be viewed as an unlawful solicitation of foreign campaign aid, but again the Mueller team was very cautious in analyzing such charges.
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The Minsky Moment

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22672 on: June 14, 2019, 12:22:51 pm »
Further on this issue of ignorance of the law  - for certain kinds of regulatory offenses, there is some justification for an ignorance of the law defense, if the regulation sweeps in conduct by people who are not likely to know their conduct is covered by the rules.  For example, an ordinary holder of a US temporary work visa could reasonably think it's OK for them to contribute to a US political campaign, and it doesn't seem fair to jail them for their failure to understand the nuances of US election law.  On the other hand, anyone who accepts a position to act on behalf of a US Presidential campaign should be presumed to know the rules.  To permit an ignorance of law defense by a high-level campaign worker like Don Jr. or Kushner or Manafort(!) is basically encouraging people who work on campaigns to avoid learning about the rules.  The Bluman decision was about the former group (temp visa holders) not actually campaign people.  A more aggressive prosecutor would have gone ahead and distinguished Bluman  as not applying to campaign people.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 12:28:53 pm by The Minsky Moment »
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The Minsky Moment

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22673 on: June 14, 2019, 12:28:11 pm »
Also - my sense re Mueller is that he was very cautious in bringing cases - focusing on bringing charges only where he was confident of getting a plea or conviction.  He didn't want to run a significant risk of an acquittal or having charges thrown out on legal grounds.  Hence his reticence over charging the Trump tower meeting which IMO is a viable case.
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crazy canuck

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22674 on: June 14, 2019, 12:49:50 pm »
Is ignorance of the law a defense in the US?

Normally it is not but some courts have carved out exceptions for so-called "regulatory" offenses. In an decision by the DC Court of Appeals -- Bluman v. Federal Election Com'n - the court stated (as dictum) that "proof of the defendant's knowledge of the law" is required to convict.

The judge who decided that case?  Then circuit court judge Brett Kavanaugh.

A BC court ruled a couple of years ago that a violation of a work place safety regulation was excusable on the basis that statute was so complex that no legally untrained person could have understood that they were acting in breach.  The Court of Appeal allowed the appeal on the basis that it is no answer for a person who knows they are working in a regulated industry to say they did not take the time to learn the applicable regulations.

Your example, further down the thread, of a person who does not know there is a regulation that might apply is an interesting case.

Zanza

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22675 on: June 16, 2019, 03:36:35 am »
One thing that hasnt changed under Trump is America's lackluster ability at forging casus belli.

This idiocy with the tankers is even lamer than that poor warship that exploded in Havana conveniently after months of the US gunning for war with Spain.
It fits the agenda of Prince Bonesaw and John Bolton, maybe that of Jared Kushner. It does not really fit Trump's agenda as the one thing I believe him is his isolationist ideology and not wanting to fight another pointless war in the Middle East.

frunk

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22676 on: June 16, 2019, 05:39:10 am »
It fits the agenda of Prince Bonesaw and John Bolton, maybe that of Jared Kushner. It does not really fit Trump's agenda as the one thing I believe him is his isolationist ideology and not wanting to fight another pointless war in the Middle East.

Except his idealogical assumptions are from the 1980s (apart from Russia, oddly), he truly hates everything that Obama has ever done and if things get bad with impeachment a war might be the best way to rally support.  So Iran being the target makes sense for him.

Also he's never met their authoritarian leaders so he hasn't had an opportunity to fall in love with them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 05:44:47 am by frunk »

The Larch

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22677 on: June 16, 2019, 03:59:13 pm »
So apparently Israel named a settlement in the Golan Heights after Trump.

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22678 on: June 16, 2019, 04:49:05 pm »
So apparently Israel named a settlement in the Golan Heights after Trump.

No doubt a barren, windswept location dotted with scrub and tumble weed plants.
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dps

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Re: What does a TRUMP presidency look like?
« Reply #22679 on: June 16, 2019, 09:33:32 pm »

Except his idealogical assumptions are from the 1980s

WTF?  I detest the guy, but my ideological assumptions are from the 1980s.  Well, OK, more like the 1950s, but still.