Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

Started by Josquius, February 20, 2016, 07:46:34 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

How would you vote on Britain remaining in the EU?

British- Remain
12 (12%)
British - Leave
7 (7%)
Other European - Remain
21 (21%)
Other European - Leave
6 (6%)
ROTW - Remain
34 (34%)
ROTW - Leave
20 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 98

garbon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40378913

Actually, I thought this was odd for negotiations that have just started:

QuoteAnne-Laure Donskoy, founding member of the 3million - which aims to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the UK - said the offer was "disappointing" and "really falls short of our expectations".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme it was "neither fair, nor really serious".

"It is like a teaser this statement, it gives you general direction of travel potentially, but there are things in the statement that need to be unpicked."

You don't say? A general outline statement doesn't have enough specifics?

QuoteEU negotiators will want to see the details of this proposal which are only due to be made public next Monday.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Tamas

I think it is just a vague statement. It SHOULD be fine but presently it is your entire life hanging on Theresa May's goodwill and she standing behind some vague words she said, for 5 years.

Mostly, this settled status after 5 years. I think, it is perfectly fine, if it means you have to (and allowed to) stay in the UK for 5 years in order to be automatically given the settled status.

But is that what they mean? Or they mean you'll be vetted after 5 years to see if you can stay (like with the current permanent residence status available for everyone). And during the out-of-EU phase of the 5 years, will you have the same rights as you have now as EU citizen? yes? No? Nobody knows.

Tamas

Also May's addendum of "it needs to be matched by the EU" is very dishonest. The EU was the first to offer terms and better, clearer ones than this. As that article pointed out, is she insisting the EU makes a worse offer to British citizens, or what?

garbon

Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2017, 08:49:21 AM
I think it is just a vague statement. It SHOULD be fine but presently it is your entire life hanging on Theresa May's goodwill and she standing behind some vague words she said, for 5 years.

Mostly, this settled status after 5 years. I think, it is perfectly fine, if it means you have to (and allowed to) stay in the UK for 5 years in order to be automatically given the settled status.

But is that what they mean? Or they mean you'll be vetted after 5 years to see if you can stay (like with the current permanent residence status available for everyone). And during the out-of-EU phase of the 5 years, will you have the same rights as you have now as EU citizen? yes? No? Nobody knows.

Actually it isn't as vague as you are making it out to be on those aspects.

From the blurbs given:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/22/theresa-may-makes-fair-and-serious-offer-on-rights-of-eu-citizens-in-uk
QuoteEU citizens already in the UK – and those who arrive lawfully during a subsequent "grace period" – expected to be up to two years – will be given the opportunity to build up five years' worth of residence. The grace period could start at any point up to the date of Brexit and would allow EU citizens time to regularise their status.

That will entitle them to a special category of "settled status", conferring the same rights to work, pensions, NHS care and other public services as British citizens, which they will maintain for life.

And, of course it isn't full EU rights. EU rights (like being able to appeal to the ECJ) mean nothing in the context of a UK outside of the EU. All well and good for EU to say all Brits abroad will get full EU rights as those are exactly that, the rights the EU offers. Why in the world the UK would want to offer the exact same EU rights but be independent...:hmm:

Also, maybe it might make sense to start up the moaning after the UK is due to present its fuller plan on the issue on Monday.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Josquius

"Hi, I'd like to cancel my gym membership, please. It's too expensive and all my friends have said I should cancel and spend the money on something else."
"OK, that's done. However, you signed a minimum term contract, so we have to take the remainder of the payments from now until the end of the contract, now please."
"What? No, I'm not having that. Why should I pay if I'm cancelling?"
"It's in the contract you signed, madam."
"Fine, I'll pay it, but only if I can still come to the spinning classes"
"Of course, madam. You can attend individual classes whenever you like, at a cost of £6.50 per session."
"What?! But I used to get them for free?!"
"Yes madam. They're included in your membership, which you've just indicated you'd like to cancel."
"I'm not paying £6.50. The membership was only £40 a month and I used to get as many spinning classes as I wanted for that."
"Of course - this is a member's club. We take a fixed payment from all of our members, which allows us to improve the facilities and offer better services and classes to all members. Those who don't want to be a member are perfectly welcome to use the facilities, but we ask them to pay a premium."
"This is preposterous. Do you know who I am? I could buy and sell this place and everything in it, twice over, you pleb. Do as you're told."
"It doesn't work like that Mrs. May.  If you're not a member, you don't get the same benefits as members. What would be the point in membership otherwise?"
"Right, that's it. If you don't let me come to spinning classes, then I'm cancelling my membership."
"You've already cancelled it, madam. If you want to become a member again, you'll have to sign up to a new fixed-term contract, pay the joining fee and the first month up front".
"Bugger this. I'm just going to join the World Gym up the road."
"That's your choice Mrs. May, however their membership fee there is £65 a month, they don't have new equipment like us and they charge extra for classes on top of your membership".
"I don't care. This gym needs me more than I need this gym."
"On the contrary Mrs. May, we've actually had a number of complaints about your behaviour, from other members. They've said that you're rude,  you complain that the fitness classes aren't structured exactly to your liking regardless of other members' wishes, you keep putting your name down for classes and then deciding at short notice that you don't want to do them any more, and you're a danger to yourself and the others around you due to your careless handling of the equipment.
"Well I never! I'm leaving, and I'll never come back."
"Goodbye, Mrs. May."
"This is me leaving. You have one last chance to let me continue to use your spinning classes, or I'm never coming back."
"As I've already advised Mrs. May, you can attend the spinning classes, but you'll have to pay for them."
"How much are they?"
"It's £6.50 for non-members."
"...when's the next one on?"
"Tuesday at 2pm, Mrs. May."
".........see you then."
██████
██████
██████

Admiral Yi

8 seconds of my life I will never get back.  :(

Richard Hakluyt

enough for a quickie  :P

Jacob

You should've gone to spin class instead.

HVC

I hear its only £6.50
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

garbon

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2017, 03:23:11 PM
8 seconds of my life I will never get back.  :(

Damn you read fast!

Also only 65 pounds for the gym? What kind of anti-London crap is that?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: garbon on June 23, 2017, 03:33:24 PM
Damn you read fast!

I only read down to the part where May has to keep her membership because of a contract, members get free spinning, but May doesn't get free spinning.  :sleep:

Richard Hakluyt

Let's move on.

I think that the idea that there will be a special group within UK society that are subject to a different supreme court to the rest of the populace is completely untenable.

Tamas

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 23, 2017, 03:42:18 PM
Let's move on.

I think that the idea that there will be a special group within UK society that are subject to a different supreme court to the rest of the populace is completely untenable.

Yeah, I don't think trying to push that makes any sense.

Tamas

Awesome!

My plans to take permanent residence status before Brexit happens, and thus remove myself from the angst of having my entire life here hang on the Tories and Junker brawling it out, are now straight out of the window!

Because Mrs. May is going to introduce a special "settled status" that EU nationals will have to apply (and be evaluated) for if they want to stay after Brexit. AND you have to do that even if you have already obtained permanent residency otherwise.

So in a way, due to the de facto cancellation of even existing permanent residency for EU nationals, they become a third tier right below non-British non-EU residents of this country.

We will even have our neat little own identity cards with metric data provided for the Home Office!

Valmy

Every country Tamas lives in eventually becomes an Orwellian hellhole.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."