Author Topic: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families  (Read 298472 times)

crazy canuck

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6855 on: March 15, 2019, 10:13:03 am »
I think your observation is informed mainly by how well we in North American know about the Jewish situation.  But they are not unique in that regard.

A modern example are the Bosniaks.  The dispute over the territorial integrity of Bosnia is what triggered the war in the 90s.  Just this year there were newspaper reports of that conflict threatening to heat up again as Serbians within Bosnia were agitating to become part of Serbia.

The Brain

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6856 on: March 15, 2019, 10:18:41 am »
Many people in the West will instinctively side with aggressive authoritarian regimes against democracy.
You are gay.

crazy canuck

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6857 on: March 15, 2019, 10:20:10 am »
Many people in the West will instinctively side with aggressive authoritarian regimes against democracy.

Well, in the US, enough to elect one.

Malthus

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6858 on: March 15, 2019, 10:30:45 am »
I think your observation is informed mainly by how well we in North American know about the Jewish situation.  But they are not unique in that regard.

A modern example are the Bosniaks.  The dispute over the territorial integrity of Bosnia is what triggered the war in the 90s.  Just this year there were newspaper reports of that conflict threatening to heat up again as Serbians within Bosnia were agitating to become part of Serbia.

Indeed, that's part of the point I was making!  :lol: It's not the Israeli situation is unique - as you point out, it isn't - it is that the rhetorical reaction to it is unique, for a whole bunch of reasons. As a form of ethno-nationalism, it gets condemned by people who would never dream of condemning other forms of ethno-nationalism.

Just how many prominent left-wing organizations routinely condemn the Bosniaks for suppressing the Serbs within Bosnia? For creating a Bosniak ethno-nationalist identity that excludes Serbs? I don't know, but it isn't common.

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6859 on: March 15, 2019, 10:43:16 am »
I do. Fuck the Bosniaks and the Serbs.

Oh wait I am not a prominent left-wing organization. Carry on.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

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crazy canuck

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6860 on: March 15, 2019, 10:50:14 am »
I think your observation is informed mainly by how well we in North American know about the Jewish situation.  But they are not unique in that regard.

A modern example are the Bosniaks.  The dispute over the territorial integrity of Bosnia is what triggered the war in the 90s.  Just this year there were newspaper reports of that conflict threatening to heat up again as Serbians within Bosnia were agitating to become part of Serbia.

Indeed, that's part of the point I was making!  :lol: It's not the Israeli situation is unique - as you point out, it isn't - it is that the rhetorical reaction to it is unique, for a whole bunch of reasons. As a form of ethno-nationalism, it gets condemned by people who would never dream of condemning other forms of ethno-nationalism.

Just how many prominent left-wing organizations routinely condemn the Bosniaks for suppressing the Serbs within Bosnia? For creating a Bosniak ethno-nationalist identity that excludes Serbs? I don't know, but it isn't common.

I think you missed my point.  It is not common in North America. And that is apparently why you have made the claim the Jewish situation is unique.

Spend some time in the former Yugoslavia and you will hear people using the same kind of rhetoric about Bosnian territorial integrity -  which really only exists because it is guaranteed by the US under the Dayton Accords. Further, why must the criticism come from the left only to qualify?  Why is a criticism from other groups which attack the existence of a state less harmful if it is not from "the left".


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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6861 on: March 15, 2019, 11:07:18 am »
I sure as hell do not get it. How are the Bosniaks an example of how the Jewish situation is not unique? Do you have an additional example?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 11:09:03 am by Valmy »
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

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Malthus

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6862 on: March 15, 2019, 11:09:24 am »
I think your observation is informed mainly by how well we in North American know about the Jewish situation.  But they are not unique in that regard.

A modern example are the Bosniaks.  The dispute over the territorial integrity of Bosnia is what triggered the war in the 90s.  Just this year there were newspaper reports of that conflict threatening to heat up again as Serbians within Bosnia were agitating to become part of Serbia.

Indeed, that's part of the point I was making!  :lol: It's not the Israeli situation is unique - as you point out, it isn't - it is that the rhetorical reaction to it is unique, for a whole bunch of reasons. As a form of ethno-nationalism, it gets condemned by people who would never dream of condemning other forms of ethno-nationalism.

Just how many prominent left-wing organizations routinely condemn the Bosniaks for suppressing the Serbs within Bosnia? For creating a Bosniak ethno-nationalist identity that excludes Serbs? I don't know, but it isn't common.

I think you missed my point.  It is not common in North America. And that is apparently why you have made the claim the Jewish situation is unique.

Spend some time in the former Yugoslavia and you will hear people using the same kind of rhetoric about Bosnian territorial integrity -  which really only exists because it is guaranteed by the US under the Dayton Accords. Further, why must the criticism come from the left only to qualify?  Why is a criticism from other groups which attack the existence of a state less harmful if it is not from "the left".

It is doubtless true that North Americans are less well-informed about European issues, or interested in them, than Europeans. Of course if you visit the actual place concerned, local affairs will predominate.

The issue is how it is treated by people who are not directly affected by these events. For such people, condemning or praising groups is a matter of ideology, or morality, and not one of self-interest.

For such folks, Israel is treated as a "special case" and not only in North America.

for an truly international perspective, one needs merely to examine UN resolutions. You would, I assume, concede that the US is not a uniquely North American creation. Note how many have to do with Israel, compared with, well, any other issue.

Quote
As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council. Since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance).

Note the number of General Assembly Resolutions, as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

It is difficult to avoid the objective conclusion that Israel is treated as a "special case". Either that, or assert that Israel - a middling nation whose situation is, as we both know, not actually unique - is somehow deserving of all that attention.

Why "left wing"? Because that's the context of how this conversation began. It isn't any secret that things like divestment etc. are leftish.


crazy canuck

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6863 on: March 15, 2019, 12:12:31 pm »
The issue is how it is treated by people who are not directly affected by these events. For such people, condemning or praising groups is a matter of ideology, or morality, and not one of self-interest.

For such folks, Israel is treated as a "special case" and not only in North America.

I am not sure what you mean by "not directly affected'.  Israel is a significant cornerstone of foreign policy within the Middle East for every western country.

The Minsky Moment

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6864 on: March 15, 2019, 12:15:36 pm »
The Palestinian plan still appears to be to wait until 'inevitable historical forces' of some sort wipe Israel away, then repopulate their villages, and they are not willing to listen to alternative plans that sign away that dream forever.

There are some Palestinians who support a "one-state" solution - i.e. a single democratic state encompassing Israel in the territories where all residents have citizenship regardless of religion or ethnicity.  The population balance between Israeli Jews and Arabs is currently about 50-50.  This is a solution that most Israelis therefore oppose but it is difficult to come up with a principled reason to do so if the intent is to continue exercising jurisdiction over the territories.
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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6865 on: March 15, 2019, 12:20:56 pm »
The Palestinian plan still appears to be to wait until 'inevitable historical forces' of some sort wipe Israel away, then repopulate their villages, and they are not willing to listen to alternative plans that sign away that dream forever.

There are some Palestinians who support a "one-state" solution - i.e. a single democratic state encompassing Israel in the territories where all residents have citizenship regardless of religion or ethnicity.  The population balance between Israeli Jews and Arabs is currently about 50-50.  This is a solution that most Israelis therefore oppose but it is difficult to come up with a principled reason to do so if the intent is to continue exercising jurisdiction over the territories.

I mean yes there are people who support that, but I gathered that was a minority in both camps. In any case anybody trying to resolve the situation in a way that might end the conflict will probably be assassinated by somebody.

Just as an aside: are Arabs who are Jewish not considered Arabs? It seems pretty clear they are not, but I was curious exactly how that works. I mean it is not like that is a small minority of Jews in Israel either.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

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dps

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6866 on: March 15, 2019, 02:37:49 pm »

Just as an aside: are Arabs who are Jewish not considered Arabs? It seems pretty clear they are not, but I was curious exactly how that works. I mean it is not like that is a small minority of Jews in Israel either.

I think that the way it works is that if you're a Jew, well, you're a Jew regardless of your ethnic background.  If you're not Jewish, and of Middle Eastern background, you're an Arab, whether you're Muslim, Christian, or whatnot.  And if you're neither a Jew nor an Arab, well, there probably aren't many people in Israel who are in that group.

EDIT:  Or I could be completely wrong.  I'm just talking out of my ass.

Duque de Bragança

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6867 on: March 16, 2019, 07:08:19 am »

Just as an aside: are Arabs who are Jewish not considered Arabs? It seems pretty clear they are not, but I was curious exactly how that works. I mean it is not like that is a small minority of Jews in Israel either.

I think that the way it works is that if you're a Jew, well, you're a Jew regardless of your ethnic background.  If you're not Jewish, and of Middle Eastern background, you're an Arab, whether you're Muslim, Christian, or whatnot.  And if you're neither a Jew nor an Arab, well, there probably aren't many people in Israel who are in that group.

EDIT:  Or I could be completely wrong.  I'm just talking out of my ass.

Let's ask the Druze.

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6868 on: March 16, 2019, 02:23:52 pm »
Let's ask the Druze.

I don't think he posts here any more.
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Syt

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6869 on: March 17, 2019, 06:12:26 am »
“Hello, I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. By true, I mean...false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end, isn't that the truth?

The answer is no.”