Author Topic: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families  (Read 298117 times)

Malthus

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6825 on: March 13, 2019, 01:07:21 pm »
I agree with Malthus 95%.  The 5% concern is that there has been a real degeneration in governance and human rights in the past decade. The Likud-led government seems to be sliding inexorably toward the Orban-Erdogan-Putin corrupt authoritarian continuum. Israel is still better governed and far more robust rule of law than other nations in the neighborhood but the trend is very troubling.  The treatment of the Palestinians is inexcusable even given the security situation.  Toleration of dissent has gone way down with official efforts to suppress NGOs and retaliate against journalists.

I don't disagree with any of that; in fact, I posted an article a little while ago about how Bibi was about to be charged with corruption!

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,15761.0.html

Though that (should it happen) really cuts both ways - it shows corruption at the highest level of government while at the same time showing that Israel still adheres to the rule of law - I mean, doing the whole "whattaboutism" thing, the US has an obviously corrupt President, with small chance he'll ever face any consequences.

Israel is facing the same problems other nations seem to be hit with, notably the US - an upsurge in corrupt (and I would also say very morally questionable in many other ways, not least, treatment of Palestinians) right-wing political sentiment, with all sorts of disasterous effects.

No doubt pointing all that out is very valid; but still, there is a world of difference between "Israel is plagued by an upswing in corrupt and morally questionable government acts" and "Israel is inherently comparable to Saudi Arabia". The real problem is this: that many making the latter sort of argument have no idea about the former sort of problems, and would likely still be making the same argument if Israel shed Likud & cleaned up its government act. 

« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 01:24:25 pm by Malthus »

viper37

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6826 on: March 13, 2019, 01:49:35 pm »
many Israelis are critical of their own government, again often from the left. Not something you find much in Saudi Arabia.
There is a lot of criticism of their government by Saudis.  I hear the prisons and cemetaries are filled with critics...
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Valmy

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6827 on: March 13, 2019, 02:02:49 pm »
many Israelis are critical of their own government, again often from the left. Not something you find much in Saudi Arabia.
There is a lot of criticism of their government by Saudis.  I hear the prisons and cemetaries are filled with critics...

They may disapprove of what Jamal Khashoggi had to say but they defended their right to stop him from saying it.
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Benedict Arnold

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6828 on: March 13, 2019, 09:25:38 pm »
No doubt pointing all that out is very valid; but still, there is a world of difference between "Israel is plagued by an upswing in corrupt and morally questionable government acts" and "Israel is inherently comparable to Saudi Arabia". The real problem is this: that many making the latter sort of argument have no idea about the former sort of problems, and would likely still be making the same argument if Israel shed Likud & cleaned up its government act.
Did I say they were inherently comparable?  No.  I said there was a lot of overlap in terms of aspects of their respective locations, populations, influence, and religious significance.  I hope that Bibi's trial goes forward and that his methods and attitudes are on their way out in Israel.  When the leader of Israel says, "...Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people Ė and of it alone", I do think there can be some parallels drawn to past situations like Apartheid South Africa.  That is a pretty flawed and very damning view of the case which he was referring to if the article here has any credibility (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-fact-checking-netanyahu-s-claim-that-israel-is-nation-state-of-jews-alone-1.7018976).  If Netanyahu's slow murder of Democracy and rightward course in Israel is halted and a return to Democratic norms and equality amongst its citizens is recognized, a lot of my concerns with Israel will my addressed.  As it stands...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 09:31:37 pm by Benedict Arnold »
"Love to my country actuates my present conduct, however it may appear inconsistent to the world, who very seldom judge right of any man's actions."

"...this was a bitter tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served but found no pride in service. He fought but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself."

My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain.
Richard III, 5. 3

Benedict Arnold

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6829 on: March 13, 2019, 10:04:18 pm »
I think this Vox article points out how poorly constructed anti-Israeli comments due provide cover for anti-semitic garbage. About half way down is a bit on Labour and Corbyn.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/12/18220241/ilhan-omars-twitter-tweet-anti-semitism
Having read the article, I think this piece is my issue, "There is a fundamental asymmetry, then, in how anti-Semitism is treated when itís on the left and relates to Israel versus when itís on the right and it doesnít."  That, in conjunction with the article, seems to suggest that speaking out against Israel = Antisemitism.  That's a view I just can't get behind.  Can anti-Israel sentiments be used to hide Antisemitism?  Absolutely.  Are they inherently Antisemitic?  Personally I think no.

A side item for me is the massive numbers of anti-BDS Movement laws being passed at the express desire of Israeli lobbying groups.  Regardless of your opinion of the BDS Movement, the fact that these laws are being pushed and passed successfully should be concerning to all.  Here's a nice op-ed on the topic, https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-06/anti-bds-bill-approved-by-senate-avoids-first-amendment-questions
"Love to my country actuates my present conduct, however it may appear inconsistent to the world, who very seldom judge right of any man's actions."

"...this was a bitter tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served but found no pride in service. He fought but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself."

My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain.
Richard III, 5. 3

mongers

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6830 on: March 13, 2019, 10:51:38 pm »
 :nelson:

Quote
Facebook suffers the most severe outage in its history

14 March 2019 

Facebook is suffering the most severe outage in its history, with key services rendered unusable for users globally for much of Wednesday.

The last time Facebook had a disruption of this magnitude was in 2008, when the site had 150m users - compared to around 2.3bn monthly users today.

Facebook's main product, its two messaging apps and image-sharing site Instagram were all affected.

The cause of the interruption has not yet been made public.

"We're aware that some people are currently having trouble accessing the Facebook family of apps," Facebook said in a statement.
....


Full item here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47562281

:lol:
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derspiess

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6831 on: March 14, 2019, 07:44:17 am »
That really pissed me off yesterday.  My mom was giving me crap for not posting "Happy Birthday" on my dad's FB page.  Tried all day and it finally worked late evening. 
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Malthus

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6832 on: March 14, 2019, 07:48:24 am »
No doubt pointing all that out is very valid; but still, there is a world of difference between "Israel is plagued by an upswing in corrupt and morally questionable government acts" and "Israel is inherently comparable to Saudi Arabia". The real problem is this: that many making the latter sort of argument have no idea about the former sort of problems, and would likely still be making the same argument if Israel shed Likud & cleaned up its government act.
Did I say they were inherently comparable?  No.  I said there was a lot of overlap in terms of aspects of their respective locations, populations, influence, and religious significance.  I hope that Bibi's trial goes forward and that his methods and attitudes are on their way out in Israel.  When the leader of Israel says, "...Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people Ė and of it alone", I do think there can be some parallels drawn to past situations like Apartheid South Africa.  That is a pretty flawed and very damning view of the case which he was referring to if the article here has any credibility (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-fact-checking-netanyahu-s-claim-that-israel-is-nation-state-of-jews-alone-1.7018976).  If Netanyahu's slow murder of Democracy and rightward course in Israel is halted and a return to Democratic norms and equality amongst its citizens is recognized, a lot of my concerns with Israel will my addressed.  As it stands...

I see no difference between "inherently comparable" and "a lot of overlap in terms of aspects of their respective locations, populations, influence, and religious significance". Perhaps it would help if you told me why you think these positions are different.

Bibi's statement is simply a restatement of ethnic nationalism - which I agree is an inherent problem, that it was founded as an ethnic nation-state (thus exclusive to one "ethnicity") while attempting to be a modern democracy (thus inclusive of all citizens, regardless of ethnicity), but not one exactly unique to Israel. If a Japanese PM stated "Japan is the nation-state of the Japanese people", he'd simply be stating the obvious. That does not make Japan = Apartheid South Africa, even if some of its practices are obnoxious (example: treatment of Koreans living in Japan: "Zainichi Koreans"). I can't read your article, as it is paywalled, but in Israel the Court ruled that non-Jews are equally entitled to citizenship, and that they did not have to be Jewish to be Israelis (unlike, say, "Zainichi Koreans"). So the example of Israel is *less* "like" apartheid south Africa than Japan - yet that comparison is, for some strange reason, rarely made of Japan.  :hmm: 

This is the problem: the apparent inability of people on the left to critique Israel on its own merits, in its historical context, without making absurd comparisons to unlike cases - which are bound to make the intended targets of such critiques tune out. Much the same as a valid critique of America goes unheard, the moment the person making that critique announces that America is "like" Nazi Germany (or even "overlaps" with Nazi Germany, whatever that means). It's a signal that the person making the critique isn't really interested in being taken seriously in that the simply want to bash, or alternatively, has no idea what they are talking about.

Unfortunately, the political left has become such an echo-chamber on this issue, people on the left appear to literally have no idea how absurd these arguments sound outside of it. 

Malthus

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6833 on: March 14, 2019, 07:54:30 am »
I think this Vox article points out how poorly constructed anti-Israeli comments due provide cover for anti-semitic garbage. About half way down is a bit on Labour and Corbyn.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/12/18220241/ilhan-omars-twitter-tweet-anti-semitism
Can anti-Israel sentiments be used to hide Antisemitism?  Absolutely.  Are they inherently Antisemitic?  Personally I think no.


Part of what you are missing, is that while it is absolutely true what you say - anti-Israel sentiment is not the same as anti-Semitism, everyone here I think agrees on that -- anti-Israel (or indeed, anti-any country) sentiment is not a good thing; it is in itself a bias.

Hate what the government of a country is doing and speak out against it, that's fine; simply hating a country for existing is dumb. Yet much anti-Israeli sentiment is about exactly that.

Razgovory

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6834 on: March 14, 2019, 12:32:01 pm »
Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

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Benedict Arnold

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6835 on: March 14, 2019, 02:04:19 pm »
I think this Vox article points out how poorly constructed anti-Israeli comments due provide cover for anti-semitic garbage. About half way down is a bit on Labour and Corbyn.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/12/18220241/ilhan-omars-twitter-tweet-anti-semitism
Can anti-Israel sentiments be used to hide Antisemitism?  Absolutely.  Are they inherently Antisemitic?  Personally I think no.


Part of what you are missing, is that while it is absolutely true what you say - anti-Israel sentiment is not the same as anti-Semitism, everyone here I think agrees on that -- anti-Israel (or indeed, anti-any country) sentiment is not a good thing; it is in itself a bias.

Hate what the government of a country is doing and speak out against it, that's fine; simply hating a country for existing is dumb. Yet much anti-Israeli sentiment is about exactly that.
I don't hate or even dislike Israel for existing.  I don't begrudge the Jewish people the right to have a homeland.  I appreciate their efforts to keep Democracy in a very un-Democratic land.  I respect their efforts to maintain their homeland and the efforts it took to regain it.  I do take issue with how those in power have been acting of late, their treatment of the former Palestinians in Israel, the treatment of those in the Occupied Territories, their stoking of tensions in the region (which I freely admit is mirrored in their neighbors attitudes toward them.  Deescalation could be a nice new tactic to try though.), the call of Antisemitism any time any policy or choice they make is called into question, and their denial of any wrong doing or problems as it pertains to the prior items.  I hope that Bibi does get indicted.  I hope his party loses power and a more moderate and even keeled government takes over.  We shall see though.
"Love to my country actuates my present conduct, however it may appear inconsistent to the world, who very seldom judge right of any man's actions."

"...this was a bitter tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served but found no pride in service. He fought but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself."

My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain.
Richard III, 5. 3

crazy canuck

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6836 on: March 14, 2019, 02:30:18 pm »
Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

viper37

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6837 on: March 14, 2019, 02:36:28 pm »
I hope his party loses power
That is possible

Quote
and a more moderate and even keeled government takes over.
I doubt it.  Many Israelis seem fed up with the Palestinians refusal to commit anything to a peace proposal.  Add these to the hardcore zionists who don't believe Arabs should be in the greater Israel, you got a recipe for another Likud-like coallition. 

Or a moderate gets elected and is shot by an extremist Jew.

I do understand Palestinians who refuse a divided patch of lands here&there in a non contiguous state though.

I can't see any kind of deal anytime in a near future (meaning before my eventual death).
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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6838 on: March 14, 2019, 02:56:13 pm »
Anti-Zionism is the recognition that the Jewish people are unique in the world in that they don't deserve self-determination.

There have been a lot of people who identify as a particular group who would have a case to make they were denied self determinism.  The Jewish people would not be unique in that regard.

There's no issues around anti-Kurdism in the world for example.

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Re: Facebook Follies of Friends and Families
« Reply #6839 on: March 14, 2019, 03:16:53 pm »
most people don't know who or what kurds are.
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