Author Topic: The Off Topic Topic  (Read 3380404 times)

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72315 on: November 11, 2019, 03:39:59 pm »
It is hard to set up an ethnic based nation state built almost entirely on hatred of your neighbors and not have it be that way...
Ethnic nationalism - yes. Civic nationalism - no.

As I said elsewhere the Taoiseach who is definitely an Irish nationalist is gay and of Indian descent (and I don't know a single Irish person who doesn't identify as nationalist politically). Similarly one of the main candidates to be next leader of the SNP is a Scot of Pakistani descent. Although both him and Nicola Sturgeon have said that if they were refounding it they would give the SNP a different name.
Let's bomb Russia!

Valmy

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 48380
  • Champions du Monde
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72316 on: November 11, 2019, 03:46:01 pm »
It is hard to set up an ethnic based nation state built almost entirely on hatred of your neighbors and not have it be that way...
Ethnic nationalism - yes. Civic nationalism - no.

As I said elsewhere the Taoiseach who is definitely an Irish nationalist is gay and of Indian descent (and I don't know a single Irish person who doesn't identify as nationalist politically). Similarly one of the main candidates to be next leader of the SNP is a Scot of Pakistani descent. Although both him and Nicola Sturgeon have said that if they were refounding it they would give the SNP a different name.

Not everything has to be about Britain and Ireland, Sheilbh :P
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

Honorary gay award from Martinus

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72317 on: November 11, 2019, 03:58:58 pm »
:lol: :blush:

In my defence I've always kind of liked Companys too :ph34r: And I think he'd probably be counted a civic nationalist?
Let's bomb Russia!

celedhring

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 11403
  • On lockdown
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72318 on: November 11, 2019, 04:22:31 pm »
:lol: :blush:

In my defence I've always kind of liked Companys too :ph34r: And I think he'd probably be counted a civic nationalist?

Meh, I'd call Companys regionalist at best. Separatists have turned him into a separatist martyr despite always being the one restraining the separatist elements in ERC at the time.

Anyway, his legacy is deeply flawed.

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72319 on: November 11, 2019, 04:24:51 pm »
It is. And I think he's a kind of tragic figure. But, you know, given he was a leader in the 1930s deeply flawed and tragic is about as good you're going to get.
Let's bomb Russia!

garbon

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 52833
  • let's play bullets and bracelets
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72320 on: November 12, 2019, 02:12:23 am »
And Morales has fled Bolivia.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

celedhring

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 11403
  • On lockdown
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72321 on: November 12, 2019, 02:36:45 am »
The leader of the Spanish liberals has quit after yesterday's results. He had led the party since its foundation 13 years ago, hopefully they turn more towards the center AND they elect Inés as the new party leader  :wub:

(I'll take at least one of the two)

celedhring

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 11403
  • On lockdown
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72322 on: November 12, 2019, 02:59:08 am »
And Morales has fled Bolivia.

Yeah, that really escalated quickly. Hopefully the situation in the country doesn't degenerate.

Eddie Teach

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 35915
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72323 on: November 12, 2019, 04:58:48 am »
It is. And I think he's a kind of tragic figure. But, you know, given he was a leader in the 1930s deeply flawed and tragic is about as good you're going to get.

Ahem, what about FDR?
You know I'm going to lose and gambling's for fools
But that's the way I like it, baby, I don't want to live forever.

Hong Kong Add Oil :showoff:

The Larch

  • Incan Torpedo Boat Commander
  • ************
  • Posts: 9095
  • I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72324 on: November 12, 2019, 08:59:39 am »
I don’t really see how separatists are fascists, have staged a coup d’etat or suppress opposition opinion if any of those terms are to actually mean anything.

It's the current lexicon of the Spanish right, mostly. You'll understand that with that kind of attitudes around it's not really easy to find common ground.
Yeah.

As I say I find it really fascinating that this issue was the trigger in Spain not immigration (though that is part of Vox's politics from what I understand). I always remember having a drink with you and Gups in the run up to the Scottish IndyRef and you asking if we thought the UK government would respect it. Gups may have known why you were asking, given that his wife is Spanish, but I thought it was kind of a crazy question because of course they would :lol:

Now that's quite the memory!  :lol: I don't even remember the details of the conversation, when was that exactly?

Btw, I still have the Tito mug that was meant for you.  :P

Quote
It is a really striking difference with the UK - especially since Brexit - which is very much a union of states. See today's polling on Northern Ireland, or the view of Tory members on what they're willing to sacrifice to deliver Brexit:



So looking at how important Spanish unity is outside of those areas is really interesting.

I get the feeling that it is the UK the odd one out. Don't know of many countries that would just shrug off some part of it declaring independence.

Tyr

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 20126
  • In the end we will win
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72325 on: November 12, 2019, 09:06:07 am »
The first one is fine.
Scottish and Northern Irish self determination should be a thing and its up to those who live there. Northern Ireland joining the Republic I don't care about either way, assuming its decoupled from brexit.
Scottish independence...I'd rather it not happen but its not my choice.
Bizzare though that the lib dems would be the most upset and the Tories, for whom unionism is in their name, would be quite middling

The second one... Well...Radical brexiters are sociopaths. Film at 11.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 09:08:37 am by Tyr »
██████
██████
██████

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72326 on: November 12, 2019, 02:51:41 pm »
Now that's quite the memory!  :lol: I don't even remember the details of the conversation, when was that exactly?

I'd guess 2014 as it was before the Scottish election. It's all I remember really but we were in a pub (outside) in London Bridge.

Quote
Btw, I still have the Tito mug that was meant for you.  :P
:o Hero of the anti-nationalist left for Valmy too :P

Quote
I get the feeling that it is the UK the odd one out. Don't know of many countries that would just shrug off some part of it declaring independence.
Agree-ish. A lot of this is the weirdness of Brexit (ie Lib Dems care about Northern Ireland because it's a proxy for Brexit), and also the rest of the UK really never has cared an enormous amount about Northern Ireland, which is sort-of the tragedy for the unionists. Similarly the low level of support for Irish nationalism, especially in the Labour Party which I think is fairly rare elsewhere.

I think the stats would be different for Scotland. Also England (wrongly) has the Catalan attitude about subsidising other nations.

But I think Spain and the UK are the extremes on this. I'm not aware of any other country prosecuting people for the (to English ears, 17th century sounding) crime of sedition.
Let's bomb Russia!

The Larch

  • Incan Torpedo Boat Commander
  • ************
  • Posts: 9095
  • I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72327 on: November 12, 2019, 05:45:28 pm »
Now that's quite the memory!  :lol: I don't even remember the details of the conversation, when was that exactly?

I'd guess 2014 as it was before the Scottish election. It's all I remember really but we were in a pub (outside) in London Bridge.

Yeah, I remember the open air pub near London Bridge, but could not remember the year. It was Gups, Arkie, you and me, right? Wasn't Tamas also supposed to come, but couldn't finally make it?

Quote
Quote
Btw, I still have the Tito mug that was meant for you.  :P
:o Hero of the anti-nationalist left for Valmy too :P

If you still want it, just say so.  ;)

Quote
Quote
I get the feeling that it is the UK the odd one out. Don't know of many countries that would just shrug off some part of it declaring independence.
Agree-ish. A lot of this is the weirdness of Brexit (ie Lib Dems care about Northern Ireland because it's a proxy for Brexit), and also the rest of the UK really never has cared an enormous amount about Northern Ireland, which is sort-of the tragedy for the unionists. Similarly the low level of support for Irish nationalism, especially in the Labour Party which I think is fairly rare elsewhere.

I think the stats would be different for Scotland. Also England (wrongly) has the Catalan attitude about subsidising other nations.

But I think Spain and the UK are the extremes on this. I'm not aware of any other country prosecuting people for the (to English ears, 17th century sounding) crime of sedition.

Maybe the UK and Spain are extremes on this, yeah, but I don't think that other countries such as France or Italy would act in a different way when push comes to shove. Re. sedition, Spanish legalese does indeed sound extremely old fashioned sometimes, and it has been argued after all the Catalan shenanigans that a terminology update is badly needed in some areas. See, for instance, the clashes that have taken place with the Germans and Belgians about what each term meant exactly.

celedhring

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 11403
  • On lockdown
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72328 on: November 13, 2019, 07:13:04 am »
Sedition in our books means physically preventing the carriage of justice in a way that involves public disorder. It's a bad word for what essentially is obstruction of justice on 'roids.

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72329 on: November 13, 2019, 03:10:02 pm »
That would help explain why, so far I think, Denmark, Germany and Belgium have not been able to find an equivalent crime (which I think you need for a European arrest warrant).
Let's bomb Russia!