Author Topic: The Off Topic Topic  (Read 3380207 times)

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72240 on: November 07, 2019, 06:04:21 pm »
If you're entering votes into a network you need a connection at some point. My view is no voting or tabulation should be done on any network that connects to the internet especially if responsibility for running elections is local. It is in the UK and, frankly, I don't trust South Staffordshire District Council to have sufficient security.
Let's bomb Russia!

Admiral Yi

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 42507
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72241 on: November 07, 2019, 06:08:50 pm »
If you're entering votes into a network you need a connection at some point. My view is no voting or tabulation should be done on any network that connects to the internet especially if responsibility for running elections is local. It is in the UK and, frankly, I don't trust South Staffordshire District Council to have sufficient security.

Now I don't know what the back end of the US voting system looks like; it's possible that once the district level results have been entered in a computer at the county auditor's office, it's very possible for Putin to zap a couple hundred thousand votes Trump's way.

However, that has nothing to do with voting machines vs. paper ballots.
I'm up $25 on DGuller.

Yi/Before; 50 even; Trump orders at least one disobeys  vs all obey; till 0 deaths; Beeb arbitrates.

Sheilbh

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19174
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72242 on: November 07, 2019, 06:25:05 pm »
It wouldn't even need to be trying to influence the vote. A malware attack, or denial of service or ransomware or anything in either voting or tabulation would be pretty catastrophic from an integrity of elections perspective. You know and it relies on local government keeping their systems up to date etc. The NHS had a huge issue with a ransomware attack because some Trusts (the NHS is split into NHS TRusts) had software in part of their system that was no longer supported and patched by Microsoft, so it was vulnerable. For elections you'd multiply that sort of risk with every local council.

The other risk is voting machines are vulnerable, even if unconnected because they run on software that isn't going to be finalised until quite late in the day (at the earliest when valid candidates are all confirmed). Again if that's administered centrally, with high central/federal government security and they just roll out the program - I'd probably be more comfortable with the idea. But here running elections is really local and all of those little updates across the country are ways in for attackers.

As I say I'd be more comfortable if the UK/US government ran elections and even then if the machines weren't connected to any network connected to the internet, and I'd probably still prefer the method to be that it prints a ballot paper showing the electors choice (so they can check).
Let's bomb Russia!

frunk

  • Naked Mole Rat
  • ********
  • Posts: 3453
  • I heard Cal works in HR
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72243 on: November 07, 2019, 06:57:56 pm »

Now I don't know what the back end of the US voting system looks like; it's possible that once the district level results have been entered in a computer at the county auditor's office, it's very possible for Putin to zap a couple hundred thousand votes Trump's way.

However, that has nothing to do with voting machines vs. paper ballots.

The back end of the US voting system isn't.  It's all over the place, each state and each district have different systems.  Some of them well isolated from the internet others tied in and easy to exploit and hack.

Hacking at the connection from the district to the county auditor's probably isn't the ideal point of disruption since it would be easy to discover the discrepancy.  Better to attack as close to the actual point of vote as possible, which is why it is so disturbing how easy is to hack a lot of electronic voting booths (without paper trails even) whether they are connected to the internet or not.
  Many can be altered with a few minutes of isolation, which is about how long a voter would be using it.

Syt

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 30175
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72244 on: November 08, 2019, 01:17:48 am »
John Oliver covered the vulnerability of voting machines on his last show.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

Tamas

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 20299
  • we are not in Kansas anymore
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72245 on: November 08, 2019, 06:35:00 am »
Voting in general seems a big joke absolutely ripe for cheating both in the US and the UK.

I mean, I trodded in for the local elections, nobody asked for an ID, then i filled in my vote with a PENCIL, and then that was it. Must be super easy to smuggle in some extra votes at the end of the day or change ballots.

What these countries, wellthe UK at least, is great at its rule of law, that you can expect stability and protection by the law, while also being largely left alone by it. The democracy thing itself is a bit of a lazy pretense, so the ruling class can settle matters between themselves

Valmy

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 48380
  • Champions du Monde
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72246 on: November 08, 2019, 07:50:45 am »
I was glad they moved back to paper ballots in Texas this last election. Granted you still vote on an electronic machine but it prints the ballot so I can double check what it says before I put it in the ballot box.

Voting in general seems a big joke absolutely ripe for cheating both in the US and the UK.

I mean, I trodded in for the local elections, nobody asked for an ID, then i filled in my vote with a PENCIL, and then that was it. Must be super easy to smuggle in some extra votes at the end of the day or change ballots.

What these countries, wellthe UK at least, is great at its rule of law, that you can expect stability and protection by the law, while also being largely left alone by it. The democracy thing itself is a bit of a lazy pretense, so the ruling class can settle matters between themselves

Well I completely disagree. Especially here in Texas with our constant need to have voters approve everything via referendums, and they seem to vote down weird stuff for no apparent reason. Researching some arcane administrative reform that constitutionally we need to approve for some reason is always fun.

We also have a voter suppressing picture ID law and all that.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

Honorary gay award from Martinus

Grey Fox

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19836
  • Ed Anger[RIP]'s tormentor
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72247 on: November 08, 2019, 07:53:27 am »
Voter ID laws & all that are only suppressing in the US.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

grumbler

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 20269
  • I'll sleep when I'm dead
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72248 on: November 08, 2019, 07:56:25 am »
I've never understood the "voter identification is voter suppression" argument, either. 
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Valmy

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 48380
  • Champions du Monde
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72249 on: November 08, 2019, 07:59:34 am »
Voter ID laws & all that are only suppressing in the US.

We are not a very politically engaged state anyway. Only 12% turned out to vote in this most recent statewide election and even in big elections we never break the 60% barrier. There is really no need to suppress the voters when they don't vote anyway.

I vote in every single damn election no matter how little I give a shit about what is at stake.

What I find hilarious and extremely aggravating at the same time is the same assholes who make my life miserable by spewing political venom all the time often don't bother to show up and vote in the actual elections. Political internet warriors are not always political warriors in the real world.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

Honorary gay award from Martinus

Valmy

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 48380
  • Champions du Monde
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72250 on: November 08, 2019, 07:59:52 am »
I've never understood the "voter identification is voter suppression" argument, either. 

I was using it as a joke mostly.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

Honorary gay award from Martinus

Grey Fox

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 19836
  • Ed Anger[RIP]'s tormentor
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72251 on: November 08, 2019, 08:02:58 am »
I vote in everything too.

I once voted in a school board election that had a 3% participation rate.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Valmy

  • Neil
  • ***************
  • Posts: 48380
  • Champions du Monde
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72252 on: November 08, 2019, 08:03:57 am »
I vote in everything too.

I once voted in a school election board that had a 3% participation rate.

I think I voted in a school board runoff with less than 1% rate before. The people at the polling place laughed when I came in, I think I was the fifth person to vote who was not volunteering that day.
If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Valmy is practically french. :frog:

Honorary gay award from Martinus

celedhring

  • Octogon Champion
  • *************
  • Posts: 11403
  • On lockdown
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72253 on: November 08, 2019, 08:17:49 am »
The only time I haven't voted was when I lived in the USA and couldn't be arsed to go through all the stupid burocratic hoops to vote by mail. Otherwise, I always vote in every single election. Even when the parties I usually vote are being too stupid to deserve my vote, I make an effort to show up at the station and put in a blank/protest vote.

crazy canuck

  • Blessed by Valmy
  • **************
  • Posts: 26329
Re: The Off Topic Topic
« Reply #72254 on: November 08, 2019, 09:20:29 am »
I've never understood the "voter identification is voter suppression" argument, either. 

I was using it as a joke mostly.

Then good timing for the two of you to learn something about the topic.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/07/is-america-a-democracy-if-so-why-does-it-deny-millions-the-vote
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:45:02 am by crazy canuck »