Ubik commited to mental institution, tries to sue everyone

[LaCroix]

From what I've seen they rarely can keep the delusions to themselves. Especially if unmedicated.

to friends and family, sure. to strangers? people they don't have any desire to interact with? do you randomly discuss politics or personal topics with someone you meet on the street? no, and not all paranoid schizophrenics rant about conspiracies with everyone they come across. some do, maybe even many do, but not every single paranoid schizophrenic.

[MadImmortalMan]

But we're talking about actual crazy people here. From what I can tell from this situation, Ubik is a bit eccentric and his family are a bunch of complete jerks who don't get him. It's shameful what was done to him.

[LaCroix]

But we're talking about actual crazy people here. From what I can tell from this situation, Ubik is a bit eccentric and his family are a bunch of complete jerks who don't get him. It's shameful what was done to him.

there's different levels of crazy. as to ubik's situation, it's too difficult to tell without more information from unbiased sources, IMO.

[Admiral Yi]

20 bucks says he's nuts.

[Syt]

I lean towards that direction, too, considering his antics with P'dox ("The engine is mine, all mine! And they stole EU4 concepts from me!").

[LaCroix]

20 bucks says he's nuts.

with what little we have?? $50 he's nuts

[Sheilbh]

20 bucks says he's nuts.

That's also 20 bucks that Portugal works. Bold

[Martim Silva]

Well, this is a reply from the hospital:

http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/necessidade-de-tratamento-foi-reconhecida-por-sete-psiquiatras-1675138

"Need for treatment was recognized by seven psychiatrists"

"The patient was only internet compulsively after it was concluded by a clinial psychiatrical evaluation that a serious psychic disturbance existed, an absence of conscience of the pathology, refusal of treatment and significant risks in the absence of treatment, being the interment the only way to ensure the proper treatment", says a note by the Psychiatrical and Mental Healht Department of the Egas Moniz Hospital that answers the PUBLICO's questions. It is underlined that, "due to deonthological reasons, many of the informations that more easily show that the Mental Health Act was abided by cannot be said".

In the anwer it is noted that the decision to comulsively commit Carlos Rodrigues [ubik] was made with basis on the psychiatrical clinical evaluation made at the urgency services at São José Hospital, having this one being validated in the following day by the court, and only then was the patient transferred to the Egas Moniz Hospital.

"After the transfer, three ohter pscychiatrical clinical evaluations were made, all by different doctors than the one that ordered the compulsive internment at São José, having the last one been made by a doctor that did not belong to Egas Moniz". "None of these evaluations placed any doubt on the conclusions of the initial clinical evaluation". That means that the "existance of the disease and the need for treatment was recognized by at least seven psychiatrists and a high number of other professionals of mental health of different institutions", says the text, which is signed by the Department head, Caldas de Almeida, by the director of the Service for Adults, Luís Saldanha, and by the Interment Head, Bernardo Corrêa.

The hospital replies that "the relatives did exactly that which a family can and should do when one of its members shows signs of a grave psychiatrical disease and refuses any treatment for not having conscience of the disease: ask for the guidance and the support of a doctor, and appeal, if needs be, to the health authorities".

It is underlined that the doctor in question, who is an intern and works at Egas Moniz, had "the care the underscore that its information was based on the information by relatives and to limit itself to consider that, on basis of the data to which it had access to, it seemed important to her to ensure a psychiatrical observation of the patient to evaluate an eventual need for interment. This is what a doctor has the duty to do, and can legally do in Portugal, when there are strong signs of a serious psychiatrical disease and of risks to oneself or others".

Regarding the malpractice accusations and the violation of the patients rights during the period during which he was interned, "as soon as the clinical conditions allowed for it, the therapeutical team proposed for him to be moved to a compulsive treatment regime in the community (which was expressely accepted by the patient), having the patient being released from the hospital and started being accompanied in an ambulatory way.

The doctors classify as a "comple fantasy" the acusations of the lawyer of Carlos Rodrigues, when he claims that his client was comulsively committed, not because he suffered from a psyciatrical disturbance, but rather because there was "a vast conspiracy envolving the patient's relatives, the public health authorities and a large number of psychiatrists of two Lisbon hospitals".

[Malthus]

Here in Canada, it is virtually impossible to get someone committed - or at least it was 20 years ago, the last time I actually saw someone attempt it.

Anecdotally, what would happen was that the guy in question would act out in obviously mad ways (such as talking loudly about his delusions and punching the air while carrying a large kitchen knife stuck in his pants - saw that myself), the cops would be summoned, they would haul him off, he would be forced to take his meds and sent back - relatively sane but pissed off - a couple of days later. Rinse and repeat, presumably until he actually harms someone.

(The guys I knew "solved" this problem by nailing the connecting door to his basement apartment shut while they looked for another place to live, then moved out - leaving the elderly landlord to deal with it).

[grumbler]

Outburts aren't really the problem.  The inability to tell the difference between reality and what's in your head is the problem.  I have no idea why you are pushing this, but you are sorta out of your depth here.

outbursts or some public display is exactly the issue in contention, raz, because you're saying an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic simply cannot maintain steady employment -- no exceptions. employers and coworkers aren't mind-readers, so whether an employee has delusions doesn't matter if that person manages to keep those delusions to himself.

The schizophrenic who hid his disorder would just look incompetent (since he or she would be making decisions based on highly distorted visions of "reality").  Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent. 

[CountDeMoney]

Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent.

[sbr]

I know very little about the mental health industry in my own country, much less Portugal's; and IF he was wrongly interred for whatever reason, that would be terrible.

However, I followed the fall of his Magna Mundi game closer than I should have and my impression at the time was that he was crazier than a shithouse rat.  I have not seen anything since that would change my mind.

[LaCroix]

The schizophrenic who hid his disorder would just look incompetent (since he or she would be making decisions based on highly distorted visions of "reality").  Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent.

well, a paranoid schizophrenic's distorted reality doesn't necessarily mean everything is distorted. the person may think people are harmful and are out to get him, but that doesn't mean everything else will be distorted. he could still think two plus two equals four or be able to go through a call center checklist with a caller. it depends on the paranoid schizophrenic and the severity of his condition, but it's still possible.

[Razgovory]

The schizophrenic who hid his disorder would just look incompetent (since he or she would be making decisions based on highly distorted visions of "reality").  Even in the absence of outbursts, I'd think it kinda hard to hold regular employment (except in US civil service) with the reputation of being an incompetent.

well, a paranoid schizophrenic's distorted reality doesn't necessarily mean everything is distorted. the person may think people are harmful and are out to get him, but that doesn't mean everything else will be distorted. he could still think two plus two equals four or be able to go through a call center checklist with a caller. it depends on the paranoid schizophrenic and the severity of his condition, but it's still possible.

Yeah, you seem to think this is just a quirk in the personality like believing the moon landing was a Hoax.  A person who is suffering from schizophrenia doesn't attempt to hide their psychosis, anymore then you would try to hide the fact that Barak Obama is President of the United States.  These psychosis tend to be utterly bizarre like the belief that the vacuum cleaners at the Post office are turning people's knees to jelly so it doesn't take long before figuring this out.  Even when they don't reveal their psychosis you can tell something is wrong very quickly.  Their speech is strange.  Sometimes it's just nonsense, but you typically notice things like an odd cadence, strange vocabulary, repeated phrases. jumping from topic to topic, emotions shown at wrong times, and illogical connections.

I have no idea what you base your impressions on, beyond not wanting to grant the authority to force treatment on people who can't make that choice for themselves.

Here's an example of the type of speech I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbfd_OkLoU  Now, do you really think this guy could be working at a call center?

[Barrister]

Yeah, you seem to think this is just a quirk in the personality like believing the moon landing was a Hoax.  A person who is suffering from schizophrenia doesn't attempt to hide their psychosis, anymore then you would try to hide the fact that Barak Obama is President of the United States.  These psychosis tend to be utterly bizarre like the belief that the vacuum cleaners at the Post office are turning people's knees to jelly so it doesn't take long before figuring this out.  Even when they don't reveal their psychosis you can tell something is wrong very quickly.  Their speech is strange.  Sometimes it's just nonsense, but you typically notice things like an odd cadence, strange vocabulary, repeated phrases. jumping from topic to topic, emotions shown at wrong times, and illogical connections.

I have no idea what you base your impressions on, beyond not wanting to grant the authority to force treatment on people who can't make that choice for themselves.

Here's an example of the type of speech I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbfd_OkLoU  Now, do you really think this guy could be working at a call center?

I don't think that's entirely right.  People with psychosis can have some insight (can, not necessarily do).

I was dealing with a lady in court the other day, charged with assaulting a cop.  On the night she was charged she was yelling delusional things such as "I am Jesus Christ, all of Canada exists because of me".

She took the stand.  She did not deny saying those things, but she did attempt to gloss over them by saying "well that's just my own personal religious beliefs".

The mental health worker felt that this meant she probably had some partial insight into her condition, at least to the point where she knew it was a bad idea to talk about her delusions to other people.