The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

Started by Syt, August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

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derspiess

Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: Syt on October 09, 2014, 09:49:23 AM
Quotean officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company

Cop pay is that bad, huh?

Not usually, but cops with extra time on their hands can make some bank working security gigs.  Some departments, like the one in my hometown, actually let them work private details in-uniform, though I believe the department gets a cut of the fee in that case.

garbon

Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??

You should leave analogies to Marti, yeah?

But as you know I would say, no I don't think that is the same at all. Gays don't really have a job to serve as protection for citizenry - so you can't really draw and equivalent of the issue of how can people tasked with the job of helping one group be useful if the group they are assigned to help is afraid of them and what they might do to that group.  You might find an easy comparison if you wanted to discuss priests and pedophilia.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

derspiess

No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

garbon

Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:16:32 AM
No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles

Well I guess we have nothing further to talk about. :mellow:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

derspiess

Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Berkut

Quote from: derspiess on October 09, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.


I think you are right.

The problem that police DO have, however is:

1. Some of them are scumbags.
2. They have a rather tough situation to deal with in regards to the statistics around who commits crimes by race - trying to balance that reality with the perception (in the best case) that blacks are unfairly targetted, and the reality that in some cases some police officers who are not "scumbags" probably do fall into the mistake of over-aggressively policing blacks out of proportion to the reality of their greater involvement statstically in crime.
3. The "thin blue line" mentality where the good cops actually protect the bad ones, which makes the good ones look just as bad as the scumbags.
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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derspiess

"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

CountDeMoney

QuoteThe officer approached a group of men.

Why?

QuoteOne of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

Quoteso the officer pursued.

Why?

QuoteDotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.

Maximus

Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

Berkut

#475
Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

Very little, actually.

In fact, I would guess that the set of officers who are the "good guys" has a higher percentage of ex-military than the set of scumbags.

And I think the militarization culture is actually not at all driven by the actual military. More the civilians cop mentality and the rise of SWAT and "special forces" type policing.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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derspiess

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2014, 10:37:47 AM
QuoteThe officer approached a group of men.

Why?

QuoteOne of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

Quoteso the officer pursued.

Why?

QuoteDotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.

Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Jacob

Quote from: Maximus on October 09, 2014, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 09, 2014, 10:28:32 AM
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.
How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.

Maximus

Quote from: Jacob on October 09, 2014, 10:54:40 AM
It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.
Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.

Malthus

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius