The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

Started by Syt, August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

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CountDeMoney

Tazers seem pretty reliable from what I've seen, provided officers have them.  Not all agencies do.  And if the gendarmes jump into the phone booth to change into their Waffen-SS outfits, they may not have them available.

PDH

I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

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"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Valmy

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 19, 2014, 08:47:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 PM
it sure seems like there would be other methods to deal with him.

There isn't.  You have to drop somebody with a knife.  That's not really a negotiable item.

Well the guy seems to be mentally unstable and seems like he was going for suicide-by-cop.  It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

DGuller

Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

Valmy

Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2014, 08:24:10 AM
At the same time, it did appear to me that you were taking issue with what didn't seem like an unreasonable action on the apart of officers who had someone coming at them with a knife drawn.

My issue was with their training.  Just like my issues with their equipment.  It may indeed be the case that in that situation any police department around the world would be expected to gun that guy down, after all that was what he wanted the cops to do, but I was questioning if there really was no non-lethal way to deal with it.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

I think maintenance of public order should be a police concern.  Why is it upsetting that it would be?  Lives and property are at stake.  Killing people in a community is a last resort.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

DGuller

Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:22:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
It is a little upsetting that there was no choice but to accommodate him, especially under the circumstances.
What do the circumstances have to do with it?  I think it would be more upsetting if police guidelines were like "Kill him, unless it's going to raise too much stink."

I think maintenance of public order should be a police concern.  Why is it upsetting that it would be?  Lives and property are at stake.  Killing people in a community is a last resort.
That's the thing, it should always be a last resort, and thus it shouldn't be conditional on the riot situation in general.

Barrister

Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2014, 07:50:02 PM
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/BREAKING-Officer-involved-shooting-in-St-Louis-271876701.html

QuoteA 23-year-old man was shot and killed after showing a knife to an officer in North St. Louis, according to Chief Sam Dotson.

Dotson confirmed that there was a fatal officer-involved shooting around 12:30 p.m. at McLaran Avenue and Riverview Drive in North St. Louis. 

According to Dotson, the suspect stole two energy drinks from the Six Stars Market in the 8700 block of Riverview. Dotson said after the suspect walked out of the store with the drinks, he went back inside the store and grabbed a pastry. Dotson said the store owner followed the suspect out of the store and police were dispatched to the area.

According to police, the suspect pulled out a knife and was acting erratically when officers arrived. Dotson told reporters the suspect told responding officers to "shoot me now, kill me now."   Dotson said officers asked the suspect to drop the knife, which he was holding in an overhead grip, and the suspect refused to do.



When the suspect approached the officers carrying a knife, officers fired shots striking the suspect. The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene of the shooting.

When asked about the validity of the shooting, Dotson said officers "have a right to defend yourself."

Mayor Francis Slay tweeted that there will be a "complete and transparent" investigation into the shooting.  He pledged that St. Louis "will know everything I know."

A large, peaceful crowd quickly came to the scene of the shooting.  Some said police had other options, and did not have use lethal force.

"It's in their best interest, with Ferguson and everything going on, to use a taser," said Tommy Lee, a resident of the area. 

"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

Oh for fucksake.  How are they training these cops?  They cannot use tasers or anything?  If somebody cannot be talked down then it is shoot to kill?  Well at least this dude wasn't unarmed.

Valmy - use of a Taser would be appropriate, if the officer in question had a taser.

It's tough to say since you're only going by a few words in a newspaper article, but it sounds as if the use of deadly force may have been justified here.  A knife is a deadly weapon.  Police are trained that a person with a knife can approach and strike you very quickly.  Standard procedure would be for police to maintain their distance and try and talk this guy down, but if he gets too close and refuses demands to drop the knife they can and should use deadly force.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Valmy

Quote from: DGuller on August 20, 2014, 09:28:27 AM
That's the thing, it should always be a last resort, and thus it shouldn't be conditional on the riot situation in general.

Indeed.  But the whole controversy is if the police are becoming militarized and shooting a bit too liberally (and maybe are all racists blah blah) is it not? 

Anyway fortunately in this case it is on tape, as it should be, so the situation can be reviewed.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

CountDeMoney

Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

DontSayBanana

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Derp. :lol:
Experience bij!

derspiess

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 08:38:10 AM
Tazers seem pretty reliable from what I've seen, provided officers have them.  Not all agencies do.  And if the gendarmes jump into the phone booth to change into their Waffen-SS outfits, they may not have them available.

One thing the Cincy PD learned the hard way is you don't tase a robbery suspect while he's climbing over top of a fence :pinch:
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

11B4V

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Ah fuck that was funny.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

Malthus

Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 20, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
Quote"A knife cannot puncture a vest," another resident said.

The fuck it can't.

Every once in a while, I read an article about some bonehead who goads his buddy into "just take a stab, man, I'm wearing my bulletproof vest ...".
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

derspiess

I hadn't paid attention to this until today because we were doing our Cabin Weekend mini-vacation down in Tennessee.  But apparently the developments caused my lefty co-worker of color (who insists on talking politics in the office) to change his tune a bit.  He's no longer calling the shooting an "execution".
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall