The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

Started by Syt, August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

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Darth Wagtaros

Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Patriarchal white pig square or not, that ain't cool man.
PDH!

crazy canuck

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 27, 2019, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Patriarchal white pig square or not, that ain't cool man.

I assume your comment was directed at Wargtard  :)

Darth Wagtaros

Quote from: crazy canuck on August 27, 2019, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 27, 2019, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
What the fuck Galveston? I hope that Police Chief did more than just apologize.
Just cuz you wanna bring criminals cookies and milk and tuck them into a nice bed for naptiem doesn't mean real Americans do. Crime doesn't pay.

Call me a bleeding heart pinko hippy but I think somebody should at least be convicted of a crime before they have to take a walk of shame.
Patriarchal white pig square or not, that ain't cool man.

I assume your comment was directed at Wargtard  :)
No.
PDH!

Syt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/12/07/four-died-shootout-with-police-after-ups-truck-was-hijacked-could-it-have-been-avoided/

QuoteFour died in a shootout with police after a UPS truck was hijacked. Could it have been avoided?

The violent scene unfolded on live television. Dozens of police officers, guns drawn, swarmed a hijacked UPS truck hemmed in by rush-hour traffic at a busy intersection. Inside the vehicle, two men suspected of armed robbery had taken the driver hostage. Outside, the officers took shots with innocent bystanders trapped in the cars in between.

It was, experts later said, a nightmare scenario.

The Thursday shootout in South Florida left four dead — the two hijackers, the 27-year-old abducted UPS driver and a 70-year-old man who happened to be idling at the light on his way home from work. It also left a mountain of unanswered questions.

As video of the violence circulated on national news and social media, some, including the UPS driver's family, criticized police tactics, saying it was irresponsible for officers to exchange fire on a crowded street. Others said the first responders had no choice but to confront a deadly threat.

In the weeks to come, investigators will have to address some thorny and complex issues concerning police use of force, researchers and law enforcement officials said. Who fired the shots that killed UPS driver Frank Ordonez and motorist Richard Cutshaw? How many bullets were fired and from where? Did the officers' actions put innocent lives in danger?

"Just about everything that could go wrong did go wrong," said David Klinger, a criminal justice professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis. The incident "was really, really bad."

But as chaotic and calamitous as the episode was, it was also "a perfect example" of why police are allowed to use deadly force against dangerous criminals, Klinger said. Authorities said Lamar Alexander and Ronnie Jerome Hill had left a trail of violence behind them that evening. Stopping them by any means — even with bullets — was "absolutely the right thing to do," Klinger said.

"In a situation like this, the police are reactive," Klinger added. "This is not a situation they want to be in. Their hand was forced."

The dramatic exchange of gunfire followed a high-speed chase through two counties that thwarted residents' commutes at rush hour. The men had tried to rob Regent Jewelers in Coral Gables, triggering a silent alarm about 4:15 p.m., police said.

They said a female employee of the store was injured as the robbers and the store owner shot at each other. The gunmen fled north in a truck, then commandeered a UPS truck while the driver was making a delivery, police said. Several police cars pursued the UPS truck, with the UPS driver trapped inside, until the vehicle was boxed in by traffic in Miramar and officers surrounded it.

When Heather Taylor, a homicide sergeant in St. Louis, watched the footage, she saw police who refused to retreat and who put innocent lives in jeopardy because of it. Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.

"We don't always have to be the warrior," said Taylor, who is also president of the Ethical Society of Police in St. Louis. "Sometimes we have to understand that retreating is okay. You don't always have to get the bad guy."


She acknowledged that the officers were in a difficult situation but said the video was "one of the most tragic" she has seen.

"Yes, the suspects are responsible, absolutely, but we are also responsible for every single round that went toward innocent bystanders," Taylor said. "Each one of them had the potential to kill someone."

On a GoFundMe page that had raised more than $100,000 by Friday evening, Roy Ordonez wrote that his brother, the UPS driver, had been gunned "down like a criminal by the Florida police." He asked people to share the fundraising page to "make people aware of trigger-happy police officers."

"They could have killed many more people, could have been one of your loved ones," Roy Ordonez wrote. "Please don't let my brother's death be for nothing. Police need to be held accountable."

Joe Merino, who told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel that he was Frank Ordonez's stepfather, said his stepson was "murdered."

"The police are here to serve and protect," Merino said, "but where was the protection for my son?"

Autopsies may determine who fired the shots that killed Ordonez and Cutshaw. Tania Rues, a spokeswoman for the Miramar Police Department, referred a question about the timeline for the autopsies to the Broward County medical examiner's office, which did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the shootout, Rues said.

"The armed suspects engaged law enforcement in open fire," FBI agent George Piro said on Thursday. He said the first shot was fired during the chase but declined to provide more details. Piro said it would be "completely inappropriate" to discuss whether the UPS driver or the bystander may have been hit by officers' gunfire.

David Harris, a policing expert and a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh, said the police officers' actions should be judged against their departments' policies about pursuits and deadly force.

Most professional police associations urge officers to engage in a chase only in very serious situations, to avoid unnecessarily endanger officers, criminals or bystanders, Harris said. He said most police forces, however, would allow officers to chase the vehicle of people connected to a violent felony, like the firing of shots during a jewelry store robbery.

"A situation like this with a hijacked truck, a kidnapping and maybe hundreds of civilians in danger is very unusual," Harris said. "And you won't find but a handful of police officers in the United States who've had an experience like this."

Geoff Alpert, a criminology professor at the University of South Carolina, said that other than having a SWAT truck with heavily armed tactical police officers, he did not know of alternative ways that police could have safely ended the pursuit. The gunmen had proved that they were willing to resort to violence to escape and could have endangered other people in the area, such as by hijacking other cars, Alpert said.

"This is why the police are trained to do what they do," he said.

Every shot that police fired has to be accounted for, Alpert added. He said investigators need to ask each officer on the scene, while their memories are fresh, why they shot and what their target was.

"Every one of them could be justified," Alpert said, "or there may be some that aren't."


Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:
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Berkut

Quote from: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM

Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:

What is the point of a question like that?

Do you really think those cops, literally while someone is shooting at them, are thinking "Gee, what is my standard procedure here in this totally routine situation that I have been in so many times before? Should I stand here in the open and let them blow me away, or should I duck behind whatever the fuck is around me right fucking now?"

There is almost certainly going to be plenty to learn about what should or should not be done in these kinds of moments. Trying to critique individual officers for their actions in the moment is almost certainly nearly useless. It may very well be the case that the officers should not have even engaged at all, and simply let them get away, but that should be judged against their standards and their SOP. What happened once the bullets started flying is always going to be mostly chaos.

And if the cops HAD let them simply get away, and they shot that UPS driver and left his body by the side of the road, the same couch warriors bitching about over aggressive cops hiding behind cars in a shoot out would say they were cowards for letting someone with a hostage simply escape, I am sure.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Zoupa

I mean, it says right in the article dude:

Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.


That's a police sergeant talking, not exactly a couch warrior.

Razgovory

Quote from: Berkut on December 08, 2019, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM

Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:

What is the point of a question like that?

Do you really think those cops, literally while someone is shooting at them, are thinking "Gee, what is my standard procedure here in this totally routine situation that I have been in so many times before? Should I stand here in the open and let them blow me away, or should I duck behind whatever the fuck is around me right fucking now?"

There is almost certainly going to be plenty to learn about what should or should not be done in these kinds of moments. Trying to critique individual officers for their actions in the moment is almost certainly nearly useless. It may very well be the case that the officers should not have even engaged at all, and simply let them get away, but that should be judged against their standards and their SOP. What happened once the bullets started flying is always going to be mostly chaos.

And if the cops HAD let them simply get away, and they shot that UPS driver and left his body by the side of the road, the same couch warriors bitching about over aggressive cops hiding behind cars in a shoot out would say they were cowards for letting someone with a hostage simply escape, I am sure.


Do instances where a suspect makes a get-away become huge nationwide stories?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

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dps

Quote from: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
I mean, it says right in the article dude:

Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.


That's a police sergeant talking, not exactly a couch warrior.

How, exactly, were the officers to know if they would ever get a clearer shot?

mongers

Quote from: Berkut on December 08, 2019, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 08, 2019, 04:59:37 AM

Video shows the officers using civilian cars, with the drivers inside, as cover. Is that standard procedure? :unsure:

What is the point of a question like that?

.....

And if the cops HAD let them simply get away, and they shot that UPS driver and left his body by the side of the road, the same couch warriors bitching about over aggressive cops hiding behind cars in a shoot out would say they were cowards for letting someone with a hostage simply escape, I am sure.

This needs more CAPS, one word isn't enough for the full effect.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Tonitrus

Quote from: Razgovory on December 08, 2019, 11:04:59 AM

Do instances where a suspect makes a get-away become huge nationwide stories?

If they execute their hostages, sure.

Berkut

Quote from: Zoupa on December 08, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
I mean, it says right in the article dude:

Instead of opening fire in the crowded intersection, she said, officers could have engaged the robbers when they had a clearer shot.


That's a police sergeant talking, not exactly a couch warrior.

Thats what I said.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Zoupa


mongers

"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

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