Author Topic: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD  (Read 404047 times)

The Brain

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6570 on: October 28, 2020, 11:46:30 am »
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.
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Barrister

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6571 on: October 28, 2020, 11:47:35 am »
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.

Guy with a knife is significantly more likely to also be carrying a gun in the US.

The Brain

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6572 on: October 28, 2020, 11:55:37 am »
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.

Guy with a knife is significantly more likely to also be carrying a gun in the US.

If we assume this to be true, why would the proper response to a guy advancing towards you brandishing i knife therefore be to kill him? Because he might A) have a gun, and, if he does have one, he might B) try to draw it? Sounds like death by ifs to me.
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DGuller

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6573 on: October 28, 2020, 12:06:04 pm »
WTF, why did we get off on this tangent of knife-wielding people in America being more deserving of being shot because they might carry a gun?

The fair counterpoint to what Brain brought up originally, about Swedish police shooting less people, is that there may be less people wielding a knife in Sweden in the first place, so it doesn't matter whether you recklessly shoot them in the legs or responsibly put them down with 20 shots to the chest.  As Milton Friedman would've surely put it, in America we don't shoot Scandinavians either.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 12:09:17 pm by DGuller »

crazy canuck

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6574 on: October 28, 2020, 12:40:29 pm »
Comparing Sweden and the US when it comes to how to handle potentially violent criminals as a law enforcement officer  is just silly . The threat profile is not remotely similar.

:unsure: Not sure if serious.

Pretty sure he's serious.

Let's see.  You have gun licensing, US does not.  US has 120 guns per 100 people, Sweden has 23.  US has a large minority that has faced historic racism and persecution, which has led to much higher crime rates.  Sweden was historically ethnically homogenous and while it has taken in some refugees, most foreign immigrants have been high skilled.

Therefore a guy with a knife in the US is significantly more dangerous than a guy with a knife in Sweden? I don't see it.

Guy with a knife is significantly more likely to also be carrying a gun in the US.

That cannot be the reason for shooting someone.  Get back to the number of times police in Sweden will be confronted with a person wielding a knife.

chipwich

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6575 on: October 28, 2020, 12:46:26 pm »
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.

DGuller

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6576 on: October 28, 2020, 12:53:33 pm »
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.

grumbler

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6577 on: October 28, 2020, 12:58:39 pm »
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
   :lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.
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Barrister

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6578 on: October 28, 2020, 01:00:50 pm »
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
   :lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.

Are you sure they're trained to empty their guns if they shoot?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Keep firing until the threat has been neutralized, but to keep pumping bullets into a person lying on the ground seems fairly extreme.  Plus then you're out of ammo if a new threat arises.

HisMajestyBOB

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6579 on: October 28, 2020, 01:16:11 pm »
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
   :lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.

Are you sure they're trained to empty their guns if they shoot?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Keep firing until the threat has been neutralized, but to keep pumping bullets into a person lying on the ground seems fairly extreme.  Plus then you're out of ammo if a new threat arises.

A lot of those extra bullets are actually pumped into innocent bystanders.
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grumbler

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6580 on: October 28, 2020, 01:36:44 pm »
Because of Americas higher gun violence, American cops have higher expectations that a mildly dangerous encounter is actually extremely dangerous.
If there is one person that I wouldn't be worried about pulling a gun on me, it would be the person whose hands are busy with holding a knife.
   :lol:

It would be instructive to see the rate at which Swedish cop shootings are fatal, versus the American rate.  We know the US rate will be higher, because US cops are, for some reason, taught to empty their guns if they shoot at all, but the numbers would still be interesting.

Are you sure they're trained to empty their guns if they shoot?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Keep firing until the threat has been neutralized, but to keep pumping bullets into a person lying on the ground seems fairly extreme.  Plus then you're out of ammo if a new threat arises.

The cops who shot Walter Wallace fired at least 14 times (pulling the trigger as fast as they could) from a range of about seven feet.  The three cops firing into Breonna Taylor's apartment building fired 32 shots. Maybe they aren't trained to do that, and it's all just coincidental, but the pattern is suspicious.

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chipwich

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6581 on: October 28, 2020, 02:53:02 pm »
I am under the impression that bullet spam is due to biases in self-defense laws- If you don't absolutely slaughter the person you are shooting at it can be taken as evidence that you weren't really mortally threatened.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 10:00:50 pm by chipwich »

HisMajestyBOB

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6582 on: October 30, 2020, 12:48:47 pm »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/30/philadelphia-fop-posts-toddler/

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Police took a Black toddler from his family’s SUV. Then, the union used his photo as ‘propaganda,’ attorneys say.


On Thursday, the nation’s largest police union posted a photo to social media taken during the unrest in Philadelphia this week, where hundreds of protesters clashed with officers over the police killing of Walter Wallace Jr. The Fraternal Order of Police’s posts showed a Philadelphia police officer holding a Black toddler clinging to her neck.

“This child was lost during the violent riots in Philadelphia, wandering around barefoot in an area that was experiencing complete lawlessness,” the union claimed in a tweet and Facebook post that have since been deleted. “The only thing this Philadelphia police officer cared about in that moment was protecting this child.”

But lawyers for the boy’s family say that story was a total fabrication.

In fact, they say police yanked the boy from the back seat of an SUV after busting all of the windows and violently arresting and injuring his mother, who was later released without charges.

“It’s propaganda,” attorney Riley H. Ross III told The Washington Post. “Using this kid in a way to say, ‘This kid was in danger and the police were only there to save him,’ when the police actually caused the danger. That little boy is terrified because of what the police did.”

Ross and colleague Kevin Mincey are representing the boy’s mother in a civil rights case stemming from the violent clash with police on the first night of protests in Philadelphia, which has had four straight nights of unrest after officers the fatal police shooting of Wallace, 27, who was armed with a knife and whose family said he was mentally ill.

Not long after midnight on Tuesday, Rickia Young, a 28-year-old home health aide, borrowed her sister’s car, put her 2-year-old son in the back seat and drove across town to West Philadelphia to pick up her teenage nephew from a friend’s house, Mincey said.

She was driving back to their home, hoping the purring car engine would lull her young son to sleep, when she turned onto Chestnut Street, where police and protesters had collided. She found herself unexpectedly driving toward a line of police officers who told her to turn around, Mincey said. The young mother tried to make a three-point turn when a swarm of Philadelphia officers surrounded the SUV, shattered its windows and pulled Young and her 16-year-old nephew from the car, the video shows.

A now-viral video of the confrontation shows officers throw Young and the teenager to the ground and then grab the toddler from the back seat. The scene was captured by Aapril Rice, who watched it unfold from her rooftop and told the Philadelphia Inquirer that watching a police officer take the baby was “surreal” and “traumatic.”

Mincey said police temporarily detained Young, who had to be taken to the hospital for medical treatment before she could be processed at the police station because her head was bleeding and most of her left side had been badly bruised when police threw her to the ground. She and her son were separated for hours, he said.

“Her face was bloodied and she looked like she had been beaten by a bunch of people on the street,” he told The Post. “She is still in pain.”

Her nephew also suffered injuries in the confrontation, Mincey said, and Young’s son was hit in the head leaving a large bump on the toddler’s forehead.

Mincey said Young phoned her mother while in police custody and asked her to find the boy. The toddler’s grandmother managed to find him after several hours, the lawyer said, sitting in his car seat in the back of a police cruiser with two officers in the front seats. Glass from the SUV’s broken windows still lay in the child’s car seat, he said.

The Inquirer first reported about the Fraternal Order of Police’s social media posts on Thursday. The photos of the boy in the arms of a police officer came amid a torrent of posts from the union decrying the protests in Philadelphia and urging people to vote for President Trump to promote “law and order.”

“We are not your enemy,” the union said in the posts showing Young’s son. “We are the Thin Blue Line. And WE ARE the only thing standing between Order and Anarchy.”

After the Inquirer asked the union about the posts, it removed the photos and the claim that an officer had found the toddler wandering barefoot in the protests. The FOP did not return The Post’s request for comment on the posts.

The Philadelphia Police Department did not immediately return The Post’s request for comment on the incident involving Young and her family Thursday night, but the department told the Inquirer that its internal affairs unit had opened an investigation.

The sun had risen Tuesday morning before Young was finally reunited with her 2-year-old son. Police held Young for several hours, but eventually released her without charges, her lawyers said. The boy’s family then took him to the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, where doctors treated him for the head injury and then released him.

The family’s lawyers said police have not yet told Young where to find the damaged SUV or the family’s belongings that were inside it, including her son’s hearing aids.

“She wasn’t out looting or out doing anything,” Mincey said. “She wasn’t even charged with a crime.”

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Syt

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6583 on: October 30, 2020, 01:53:17 pm »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/breonna-taylor-boyfriend-kenneth-walker-sued-by-louisville-police-sgt-jonathan-mattingly-for-emotional-distress-2020-10-29/

Quote
Louisville police officer sues Kenneth Walker, boyfriend of Breonna Taylor, for emotional distress, assault and battery

An officer involved in the fatal shooting of Breonna Taylor has filed a civil suit against the 26-year-old's boyfriend for emotional distress, assault and battery on the night she was killed. The lawsuit claims Louisville Sergeant Jonathan Mattingly experienced "severe trauma, mental anguish, and emotional distress" because of Kenneth Walker's actions on March 13.

Mattingly and two other officers entered Taylor's apartment early in the morning that day with a warrant in an attempt to carry out a drug investigation. Walker, a licensed gun owner who said he thought the officers were intruders, allegedly fired a shot that hit Mattingly in the leg. Police opened fire, killing Taylor. Taylor had no criminal record and no drugs were found.

"Walker's conduct in shooting Mattingly is outrageous, intolerable, and offends all accepted standards of decency and morality," the lawsuit said, citing one of the legal standards for intentional emotional distress.

Walker was initially arrested and charged with attempted murder over the shooting, but those charges were later dropped. Walker subsequently sued the Louisville Metropolitan Police Department and also sought immunity based on the state's "Stand Your Ground" law. 

Walker's attorney called Mattingly's lawsuit a "baseless attempt to further victimize and harass Kenny."

"Kenny Walker is protected by law under KRS 503.085 and is immune from both criminal prosecution and civil liability as he was acting in self defense in his own home," attorney Steve Romines said in a statement obtained by CBS News.

"Even the most basic understanding of Kentucky's 'Stand Your Ground' law and the 'Castle Doctrine' evidences this fact. One would think that breaking into the apartment, executing his girlfriend and framing him for a crime in an effort to cover up her murder would be enough for them," he added. "Yet this baseless attempt to further victimize and harass Kenny indicates otherwise."

In a statement obtained by CBS News, Mattingly's attorney Kent Wicker voiced his support for his client. "Mattingly was shot and nearly killed by Kenneth Walker. He's entitled to, and should, use the legal process to seek a remedy for the injury that Walker has caused him," Wicker said.

Taylor's death sparked widespread protests and demands that the officers involved face accountability.

Dozens showed up in pouring rain and bitter cold Thursday night for a "Say her name" march, reports CBS Louisville affiliate WLKY-TV. "Until we get some justice, there will be no celebration. There's no time for leisure, there's no time for recreation," said Aaron Jordan, one of the organizers.

A grand jury indicted one officer in relation to shooting a neighboring apartment, but no officers were charged directly for their role in Taylor's death. Recently, two grand jurors have come forward to accuse Attorney General Daniel Cameron of misrepresenting their position on potential indictments and not presenting them with the full range of potential charges. 
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fromtia

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Re: The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD
« Reply #6584 on: October 30, 2020, 01:54:24 pm »
Seems reasonable. Blue Lives Matter you patriots.
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