The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

Started by Syt, August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

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Sheilbh

Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).
Let's bomb Russia!

chipwich

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).

The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.

France needs a Thatcher.

Coal mines are already closed, and having a Malouines-like war would be really a huge stroke of luck.

Duque de Bragança

#6275
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).

The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.

Try the original demands i.e cancelling the cynical and "classist" rise of diesel taxes while gasoline would have a much lower increase under the thing guise of environmentalism. So no more diesel vehicles in Paris for tradesmen but not problem for gas-guzzling SUVs!  :lol:

At least, the hike was suspended, though it may have been intended as just postponed.

Macron's low legitimacy and high unpopularity is another matter, fueled by other reform attempts.


Sheilbh

Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.
Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.

I think they're a symptom of social divides and fairly long-standing issues in France that we've all heard of that Macron particularly exemplifies. But, you know, I think they're more social unrest than a protest movement and more interesting than anything else. I mean I don't think this is Macron specific - but I think he exemplifies certain traits of the French elite and arguably the current Republic - and while the GJs have extremists in their number (but almost by definition people unhappy with the current "system" do - they are the periphery). There's something of them that is more the people who left out of that and arguably challenge its legitimacy.

As I say I don't think it's a million miles away from the Brexit vote or the fragmentation of mainstream politics in Italy, that's been expressed in certain votes in the UK and Italy. It's being expressed more through social unrest and protest in France.
Let's bomb Russia!

chipwich

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:33:04 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 02:16:38 AM
The Yellow Vests did more damage than any recent American riot, and since they don't have a sincere guiding ideology they can't be said to be bettering France. In fact I'd consider them a classic failed movement.
I mean if you say they don't have a guiding ideology - which I agree with - I'm not sure you can really say they've failed, because how are you measuring "success". Macron certainly on a number of policy issues in response to the protests.

Althought I think the gilets jaunes are interesting and a sort of symptom of potential deeper issues France has (that are not a million miles from similar deeper issues in Italy or the UK).

The GJ are so politically schizophrenic that theres no way of knowing if a typical protester wanted the concessions Macron made.

Try the original demands i.e cancelling the cynical and "classist" rise of diesel taxes while gasoline would have a much lower increase under the thing guise of ecology. So no more diesel vehicles in Paris for tradesmen but not problem for gas-guzzling SUVs!  :lol:

At least, the hike was suspended, though it may have been intended as just postponed.

Macron's low legitimacy and high unpopularity is another matter, fueled by other reform attempts.

The fuel taxes were a demand of some Yellow Vests but there's no way of knowing what fraction. Some wanted more environmentalism, some less, some wanted a socialist overthrow, some wanted a race war.

chipwich

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:38:43 AM

The fuel taxes were a demand of some Yellow Vests but there's no way of knowing what fraction. Some wanted more environmentalism, some less, some wanted a socialist overthrow, some wanted a race war.

Not some, it was the early demand which started the movement. Macron let it unanswered hoping for the protests to stall and/or degenerate. Guess what, it degenerated and when people saw Macron caved in after a early martial pose, others with their agenda of their own, either political (extremes mostly- or just delinquents from the banlieues, sensed weakness and joined the fray. Lack of competence among the Macron clique did not help cf. Interior minister Castaner.
Once the genie was out of the bottle, yes it was difficult to comply with all the accumulated demands.

The early movement in the province was a family-friendly affair with lots of pensioners. In fact, the GJ movement originated from the part of France that does not profit from globalisation i.e globalized city centres, and does not get social money to keep the peace, i.e the banlieues. No public transportation in middle and small town France so fuel taxes hikes are hardly felt there.

Eddie Teach

Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Yeah, I'm curious what you'd say is the issue. If it's simply "police shouldn't kill black people" then they won before they started- that is already illegal. When it comes to actions the government can take, there isn't a clear unified message.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

garbon

Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Yeah, I'm curious what you'd say is the issue. If it's simply "police shouldn't kill black people" then they won before they started- that is already illegal. When it comes to actions the government can take, there isn't a clear unified message.

:mellow:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Oexmelin

Quote from: garbon on September 03, 2020, 07:02:33 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2020, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: chipwich on September 03, 2020, 06:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 03, 2020, 06:38:10 AM

Yeah agreed - but they're not like a typical French protest - e.g. block the streets because they're fucking with our pensions - or BLM where there is a single galvanising issue.


BLM isn't a single issue. It's a single motte and ten thousand bailies.

Yeah, I'm curious what you'd say is the issue. If it's simply "police shouldn't kill black people" then they won before they started- that is already illegal. When it comes to actions the government can take, there isn't a clear unified message.

:mellow:

Clearly people can't be bothered.
Que le grand cric me croque !

Eddie Teach

#6283
Why don't you post a rebuttal then? 

What actionable demands is the movement making?
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Threviel

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 03, 2020, 06:28:08 AM
Quote from: Threviel on September 03, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 02, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Protests in France almost always work, mostly because of the disruption they cause. You need to hit the pocketbook. Block the infrastructure (don't destroy it). Stop going to work. The government always caves in.

France needs a Thatcher.

Coal mines are already closed, and having a Malouines-like war would be really a huge stroke of luck.

Also, history seems to look less and less kind on her. But still, a leader with the will and the skills to break the constant protests would be nice.