The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

Started by Syt, August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

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Admiral Yi

Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
Nonetheless, cost efficiencies are not the only real world constraints even if it is your favoured lens for viewing things through.

So kind of you to disabuse me of that grave fallacy.

Malthus

The record of the UK police in restraining dangerous folks without the use of guns is very impressive.

I can understand that the simple fact of having armed police creates a temptation, in moments of crisis, to use those guns rather than to use alternative techniques of the UK type that may well work.

The solution would be to export those techniques to other countries. However, if it is true that part of the effectiveness of those techniques requires the police to be unarmed, can that be done?

My question is this: is it possible to have police of the UK type in a society where handguns are far more available and prevalent?

The concern is that UK-style police are a product of UK society and not readily transplantable to North America.   
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Jacob

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
Nonetheless, cost efficiencies are not the only real world constraints even if it is your favoured lens for viewing things through.

So kind of you to disabuse me of that grave fallacy.

You seemed unaware, but perhaps it was just a pose?

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 03:47:01 PM
You seemed unaware, but perhaps it was just a pose?

I've run through a couple possible scenarios in my head and the most entertaining one is a semantic discussion of "practical," which is not terribly entertaining.

Jacob

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 04:03:27 PM
I've run through a couple possible scenarios in my head and the most entertaining one is a semantic discussion of "practical," which is not terribly entertaining.

Fair :cheers:

CountDeMoney

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 18, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Question for CDM:

If police are certain there is a gun in the car within reach of the suspect's hand, would they approach the car with their own guns drawn or would the approach with the guns holstered but with hand on the gun ready to draw?

If someone had yelled "gun" or there was a belief that someone was armed, you could be reasonably expected to approach with your weapon drawn, safety off but finger off the trigger.  In this case, even if there wasn't the expectation that he was armed, he had already used his vehicle as a weapon.  But you still need a reason to fire. 

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 02:07:29 PM
We have a fair bit of historical evidence that shields are good counters to knives and clubs etc, so it doesn't seem completely outlandish that police could use them effectively against knife or club wielding individuals, if they know that's what they're up against.

I could see the value of a shield in, say, a barricade situation in a room;  we once tushed a psych patient in an ER quiet room with a mattress as a shield.  But out in the open, like the Georgia Tech video?  Distance and obstacles are better tactical options.

What gets lost in all this "but he only had a knife" business is that a knife can kill you faster than a bullet.  Ballistic vests don't stop knives at all, and I've seen people who have already bled out by the time the ambulance arrived, while somebody taking 6 rounds center mass walks out of the hospital months later.  A knife can kill you quick, and it doesn't take an expert to do it.  You only need to get stuck the wrong way, and it's buh bye in minutes.

You mutts know I am not a big fan of arbitrarily using deadly force, but fuck cutlery.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 04:30:14 PM
If someone had yelled "gun" or there was a belief that someone was armed, you could be reasonably expected to approach with your weapon drawn, safety off but finger off the trigger. 

That's what I would have assumed.
Dents the credibility of the officer's claim to have seen the gun.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

dps


Jacob

Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 18, 2017, 04:39:46 PM
I could see the value of a shield in, say, a barricade situation in a room;  we once tushed a psych patient in an ER quiet room with a mattress as a shield.  But out in the open, like the Georgia Tech video?  Distance and obstacles are better tactical options.

What gets lost in all this "but he only had a knife" business is that a knife can kill you faster than a bullet.  Ballistic vests don't stop knives at all, and I've seen people who have already bled out by the time the ambulance arrived, while somebody taking 6 rounds center mass walks out of the hospital months later.  A knife can kill you quick, and it doesn't take an expert to do it.  You only need to get stuck the wrong way, and it's buh bye in minutes.

You mutts know I am not a big fan of arbitrarily using deadly force, but fuck cutlery.

Yeah, that's all fair enough.

I'm still somewhat curious about the apparent differences between UK and US policing, and how the successes of either system can be applied to the other.


DGuller

Quote from: Oexmelin on September 18, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 18, 2017, 02:42:06 PM
We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

Well, yes. It would be ok to spend more time and resources on it. How can "cost efficiency" be equal to "practical"? Especially in a matter in issues which result in the death of someone?
They can be equal when you're interested in performing cost-benefit analysis, and I sure hope that public policy is made by people who are interested in that.

11B4V

Drill that stupid fucker with less than lethal ammo
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Jacob on September 18, 2017, 05:28:57 PM
I'm still somewhat curious about the apparent differences between UK and US policing, and how the successes of either system can be applied to the other.

US policing would be fine if officers realized there aren't time limits on calls for service, learn to engage and communicate, and that terminal escalation doesn't always need to be taken ASAP: look at Eric Garner--nothing five minutes' worth of talking couldn't have solved. 

Kinda surprised that Atlanta PD wasn't on the scene;  it's GT, for fuck's sake.  It's right downtown.  APD is moments away.

citizen k

Hooray for third world style security sweeps and "police crackdowns":

https://www.yahoo.com/news/forcibly-arrested-st-louis-werent-protesting-175459809.html

Quote
Police said people were arrested only if they didn't follow orders to disperse, but some people said they had nowhere to go because police had boxed them in.
The undercover officer was mistaken for a suspect who was carrying chemicals that could be sprayed on officers. When the man refused to show his hands, he was knocked down and hit several times, with his hands tied behind his back and his mouth bloodied, the Post-Dispatch reported .
On Friday, Mayor Lyda Krewson asked the director of public safety to investigate how the officer was treated.
During the same protest, Air Force Lt. Alex Nelson, 27, who lives in the neighborhood with his wife, said they were trapped in the kettling, the tactic police used to box in demonstrators. He said he was kicked in the face, blinded by pepper spray and dragged away.
"I hear the police say it was their street, but it's literally my street," he said. "I have coffee on that street, and I own property on that street. We were not active protesters. We were looking into the neighborhood to observe events that were unfolding."

dps

Quote from: citizen k on September 06, 2017, 01:49:06 PM


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-nurse-alex-wubbels-thanked-hero_us_59acf0bde4b0b5e530ff7db5

Quote


An Idaho police department is hailing nurse Alex Wubbels as a hero for standing up to Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne, who tried to take blood from a patient without a warrant or the patient’s consent.

That patient, it turns out, is William Gray, a reserve officer in Rigby, a city about 15 miles north of Idaho Falls.

“The Rigby Police Department would like to thank the nurse involved and hospital staff for standing firm, and protecting Officer Gray’s rights as a patient and victim,” the agency said on Facebook. “Protecting the rights of others is truly a heroic act.”

Gray, who is also a truck driver, was badly injured in July when a suspect in a car fleeing police slammed into his truck. The suspect died, and Gray was flown to the University of Utah Burn Center.

In the hospital, police tried to take blood from Gray, who was not under arrest and not conscious and therefore unable to consent to the blood draw. In addition, police did not have a warrant.

Wubbels told Payne he could not draw blood under those circumstances and even got other hospital officials on the phone to confirm that policy to the detective.

She was arrested, and eventually released without being charged.

Payne is now facing a criminal investigation. Another officer is also on leave as the incident is investigated.

The Rigby Police Department said it was not aware of the incident surrounding the blood draw until last week.

“It is important to remember that Officer Gray is the victim in this horrible event, and that at no time was he under any suspicion of wrongdoing,” the department said. “As he continues to heal, we would ask that his family be given privacy, respect, and prayers for continued recovery and peace.”




The patient she wouldn't let them take a blood sample from has died.